Windows Weekly Episode 822 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word.
Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.


Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for Windows Weekly. Richard Campbell's here, Paul Thots here. And we will be talking about Windows 11 and a new widgets UI coming in. The Canary version Teams 2.0. Some complete rewrite and some very interesting features. And a complete rundown of how ground liquor is distilled. Yes, it's the distillation chapter of our Introdu Introduction of Whiskey with Richard Campbell all coming up next on Windows Weekly podcasts you love

TWiT Intro (00:00:33):
From people you trust. This is,

Leo Laporte (00:00:44):
This is Windows Weekly with Paul Throt and Richard Campbell. Episode 822 Recorded Wednesday, March 29th. 2023. Squirt a little fresh Air Windows Weekly is brought to you by lookout Weather on a device or in the cloud. Your business data is always on the move, minimize risk, increase visibility, and ensure compliance with lookouts Unified platform. Visit today and by Collide, collide is a device trust solution. It ensures if a device isn't secure, it can't access your apps, it's zero trust for Okta. Visit and book a demo today. And by ACI Learning, if you love it pro, you'll love ACI Learning aci Learning offers fully customizable training for your team in formats for all types of learners across audit, cybersecurity, and it from entry level training to putting people on the moon ACI learning as you covered, visit go dot aci to learn more. It's time for Windows Weekly, the show.

We cover the latest news from Micro Soft with Mr. Richard Campbell from Runners Radio Rocks. Hello, Richard? Hello, friend. Up at the lake house, except your, yours is on a lake. Yeah, I'm, I'm still with the city. Oh, you're still in the city. Yeah. Yeah. What kind of Canadian are you? It's practically patio weather. It is very nice up here right now. Admittedly jealous, but yeah. Haven't made it to the coast quite yet and yet. Not a lake. It's an ocean. It's full of critters coast house. That would, that would work. Yeah. Coast. Speaking of Critters, pretty sure I saw Eagles mating there one time. It was awkward. Yeah. Paul Throt now with new molding joining us from his place in are you still actually, I, is it upper Mace? Mace proper? Just regular mace every day. Mace. Okay. I'm literally on the other side of the tracks, Leo. Nice. Wow. They, it, it gives you, and it gives you a molding upgrade. How about that? It's moving on up. I don't know, an upgrade, but it gave me a molding. Yeah. <laugh> gotta write in Mcce pa. So you're both home. That's kind of nice. Yep.

Rich Campbell (00:03:07):

Leo Laporte (00:03:07):
Very nice. It's kind of nice. Yeah. all right, well, we can just jump right into this distillation later. I've been informed. Yes. Get ready. Richard got up in the middle of the night, so you know, it's a tome, it's an epic. I,

Rich Campbell (00:03:25):
I'm having fun with it. Yeah. I

Leo Laporte (00:03:26):
Love it. I think we could release these as a separate show in time.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:30):
Thank you. I've been telling him this. You gotta do this as a series. I,

Rich Campbell (00:03:33):

Paul Thurrott (00:03:33):
Okay. There's something, I don't know what you call this. It's a video series, a podcast, a, a book.

Leo Laporte (00:03:39):
<Laugh>. Do we need, I was wondering, I was thinking this morning, do we need to say, you know, the you know, liquor Council of America reminds you to drink, drink responsibly? Or we just

Leo Laporte (00:03:51):
We could just say, I,

Rich Campbell (00:03:52):
I'll remind you to drink responsibly. Okay. These are, you know, I, I generally recommend sipping whiskeys. Like, have one. Yeah. Then put it, then put

Paul Thurrott (00:04:00):
It away. I've never seen Richard get like, plastered or anything. Hmm.

Leo Laporte (00:04:05):
Yeah. Then put it away. That's good. I like it. Just have one. Let's have one. Yeah. The Podcasters of America remind you. Just listen to one.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:14):
Yes. Yeah. In all

Leo Laporte (00:04:15):
Things Don't attempt to double up. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:17):
Yeah. The more you know, dun dun, dun

Leo Laporte (00:04:20):
<Laugh>. Any Windows 12 news we should lead off with?

Paul Thurrott (00:04:25):
Nope. No, I appreciate the fact that the rest of the world is reporting what I said two months ago, but, you know, whatever. That's good.

Leo Laporte (00:04:31):
<Laugh> finally catching up. Paul. Little Polly

Paul Thurrott (00:04:34):
Thor. No, I

Rich Campbell (00:04:35):
Somehow he knows. No,

Paul Thurrott (00:04:36):
I I made the supposition remember that windows 12 would be the AI release.

Leo Laporte (00:04:43):
Yeah. Well, now I think

Paul Thurrott (00:04:44):
Actually the big supposition I made was not that actually, and that was, that's pretty much a fact. But rather, I kind of came, I just talked myself into this, that Windows 12 would either require or would work better with an N P U based pc. Right. a neural processing.

Leo Laporte (00:04:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You did say that. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:01):
It's starting to look good. Starting to look good.

Rich Campbell (00:05:03):
Yeah. I'm definitely in the market for a new laptop, and now I'll be looking out for that neural processor. Wow.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:10):

Leo Laporte (00:05:11):
Wowie zk.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:13):
Yeah. You know, you could do yourself a lot of good right now if you wanted it pretty quickly. And I'd have to look, I don't remember the exact chip set, but AMD announced the chip set at CES that their new PCs are coming out any day now that supports n p.

Leo Laporte (00:05:27):

Paul Thurrott (00:05:28):
And that would solve a bunch of problems, <laugh>, right? Because there's other stuff going on with Intel that isn't necessarily great

Leo Laporte (00:05:34):
Right now. Well, you know, if they make it the ai version of Windows, they could pause it for six months and that'll gimme some time. Sure.

Rich Campbell (00:05:43):
Yeah. I, I just don't know that time's actually gonna help them at this particular moment. I know. I think they, they need data and they're, and just like, just like auto drive on a Tesla, we're being tested on in you.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:54):
It's like hey, we have flying cars. You know what? Let's take a pause on that. Yeah, yeah. You know, you just can't do it.

Leo Laporte (00:06:00):
Yeah. You can't. No, it's not gonna happen. In fact, it's almost self-serving. I, you know, there's a certain conspiracy minded person who might say that the entire petition to pause is really just an ad for how close to agi. I we really are. And oh, golly, golly, golly. You don't want that. Let's pause. Woo. Woohoo. And it's really just the name. You've all

Paul Thurrott (00:06:21):
Seen Terminator, right? Yeah. We, we know how this ends. It's gonna be fun.

Rich Campbell (00:06:24):
Well, and, and I, let me go on record as we're nowhere near each. No, I like, it's not even vaguely close. Yeah. It's

Leo Laporte (00:06:30):
Not a thing. Take, take, take your time.

Paul Thurrott (00:06:33):
This is the scene where it flashes forward in the movie, and it says six months later, <laugh>, and then it's like this hellscape where

Leo Laporte (00:06:38):
Robots are stepping. Hello, I am Richard Campbell

Paul Thurrott (00:06:41):

Rich Campbell (00:06:42):
And the iPhones go to a mountain. Nothing with

Leo Laporte (00:06:44):

Paul Thurrott (00:06:45):
Your opinion.

Leo Laporte (00:06:47):
It is a risky thing to predict anything in this business, that's for sure. Sure. I can predict new Windows 11 features, however. Oh, boy.

Paul Thurrott (00:06:56):
All right. So actually, this is surprisingly interesting, <laugh> in our little world you reme you may remember a couple things, a couple things that kind of preface this. On February 28th, which was two weeks before Patch Tuesday, Microsoft released a preview version of moment two. Right? Right. It was a really weird timing. It's Microsoft doesn't really talk about Week D that much <laugh>, right. But we typically have a week A, B, and C in every month where updates can happen, different types of updates. Week B, which is the second Tuesday of the month is patch Tuesday. We all know about that. But February 28th was Week D <laugh>. So it's like, kind of a, kind of a weird timeframe, right? So two weeks later, they ship the stable version of that patch as part of Patch Tuesday. And now we flash forward two more weeks, and this past Tuesday, Microsoft released another preview update for something that will come out in Aprils. So that's two

Rich Campbell (00:07:55):
Ds in a row,

Paul Thurrott (00:07:56):
Two Ds in a row. Mm. not in the announcement post, but rather in a separate, no actually, lemme step back. I'm sorry. In the announcement post for this cumulative update, they mentioned those features I talked about last week three of the four of them that were in the release preview. And I alleged that these things hadn't been broadly tested. The insider program, they just made their way into the release preview program since then. Someone reached out to me and said at least one of them, maybe two of them actually had been in the dev channel at one point. But they didn't follow the normal path to release. So they're, they're minor features. It's not a huge deal, but I, I sort of, I, I think I made the comment that they'll appear in some fashion over the next couple months.

I didn't think they were gonna wait for like a moment three type update, but I, you know, just based on the fact that they had come into the release preview program. So they, they appeared in a preview cumulative update yesterday. If you have Windows 1122 H two, you can go get it. You have to manually download it to get it. There's nothing to look forward to. It's not particularly interesting. But there are three, I guess it's three new features, not four, and okay, but separately, Microsoft had a blog post and they hit it. They hit it in their tech community blog to make sure no one read it, that explained that they are in fact gonna be doing preview releases not every single month, but most months on Week D. And they said it was kind of perfect timing because it's two weeks after Patch Tuesday and two weeks before the next patch Tuesday.

So if you want to test something before it comes out in on Patch Tuesday this would be the way. Now this isn't the first time this has come up, but, you know, we in the Windows world have this notion of feature updates. I'll call that like capital F feature updates. These are version upgrades. This is the Windows 11 version 22 H two, the coming 23 H two, that kind of thing. They're also like small f feature updates that are like moments, right? The moment one and moment two updates where Microsoft considers these to be major small m updates that have multiple new features that are not part of Capital F feature updates. But now we also have these updates that deliver features <laugh>, right? Which are just cumulative updates that also include security fixes, bug fixes, and they're kind of minor, and they're not, so, they're not feature updates, capital F they're not moment updates. They're, you know, and this is that whole thing like, Hey, we're only doing one feature up of the year. Just kidding us. They kinda like update snacks. <Laugh>. Yes. There you go. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:10:24):
Or is this really a testing ground for getting to those major build versions twice a year?

Paul Thurrott (00:10:30):
I see. This is, it

Rich Campbell (00:10:31):
Does feel like they're trying to modernize the, the insider update process.

Paul Thurrott (00:10:38):
I feel. So my, I mean, we can only speculate. They don't really talk about this too much, but back in 2015, I think January, 2015, probably Terry Morrison, I think first brought up the term Windows as a service, right? We're gonna upgrade Windows as if it were a service. You know, here's this kind of monolithic legacy software platform. We're gonna pretend it's an online service. It's something we can update all the time. And there were lots and lots of problems. We talked about this incessantly on the podcast over the years. Every time a feature update, capital F feature update came out, something would break, you know, kinds were crashing, PCs, whatever it was. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And I,

Rich Campbell (00:11:14):
And not on the dev side, that was a problem too, because often they were doing UX updates mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and you had to get your IT guy to put those in if you wanted to use them in your apps for uwp. Like

Paul Thurrott (00:11:25):
Exactly. Yeah. It was not a good thing. Right? Another can of worms where yes, you had to be on a very specific version of Windows 10 at the time to get new uwp features. It was, the whole thing was a mess. So, mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I, I guess, you know, flash forward, what is it, 20, we're talking eight years later. I mean, I hate to, I almost hate to admit this in a way, but because there are always gonna be problems here and there, but I feel like the, after that many years, maybe they've sort of figured it out. You know, I, you're,

Rich Campbell (00:11:53):
I think you're referencing to Chris Morrisey blog post, cuz he also says continuous innovation for Windows

Paul Thurrott (00:11:58):
11. Yes. Which is that grown inducing term that Panos pane always carts out. Which is, yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:12:04):
We, we use that term in dev all the time, but we're not updating your operating system.

Paul Thurrott (00:12:09):
Yeah. It's like we're, I'm doing a get, like, they're doing a get push to everyone's computer at once, <laugh>. Yeah. You know, and it's like, what are you doing?

Rich Campbell (00:12:15):
Well, admittedly in the insiders, right?

Paul Thurrott (00:12:18):
Like, well, but no, they're doing unstable too. That's my point. I mean, because that's you know, since Windows 11, version 22 H two came out, there was, there were two moment releases mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And now there is a, another thing, I don't know, it's not a moment <laugh>, but

Rich Campbell (00:12:33):
It's, they are, they are kind of optional, right? Like, it doesn't install automatically. You can choose and, and update to install it.

Paul Thurrott (00:12:38):
You can choose to update the preview version, but when it, when the march, I'm sorry, when the April version happens in two weeks, it's mandatory, right? Yeah. No, that doesn't mean it's gonna just happen overnight. I mean, the, the, the normal process still applies, but if you check for updates, you're gonna get it. You know, that's, there's no, there's no avoiding it. Look, we've complained enough about some of the issues over the past, just six months to to know it's not perfect. Right. The, I think the, actually the search pill is another example of the type of update we're about to see, right? That's an a non moment update. 

Rich Campbell (00:13:10):
But it, that felt very much like an experiment.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:12):
Yes, it did <laugh> and and of course it was corrected eventually, but I, I, I believe the real experiment was there. There was, can we get away with this? You know? Yeah. We'll, we'll make this one semi minor,

Rich Campbell (00:13:25):
Except for that one noisy writer online.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:28):
Yeah. Except for that one idiot on the podcast. It can't shut up <laugh>. I don't even use the feature, but

Rich Campbell (00:13:35):
For one, have a couple of screenshots, just a couple

Paul Thurrott (00:13:38):
Of screenshots. Everything would've been fine. Did he, did he publish the book? Yeah. Change it. <Laugh>. Yeah, exactly. <Laugh>. Yeah, that's one thing. But I mean, look, it, it, they lost functionality. It was a regression too. I mean, they, they lost.

Rich Campbell (00:13:51):
Oh, you mean Windows 11? Did you say that out loud? I know. Say that

Paul Thurrott (00:13:54):
Out loud. The Windows 11, the regression release. Anyway

Leo Laporte (00:13:58):
So here's the real question. Yeah. Have they fixed the Acropolis

Paul Thurrott (00:14:03):
<Laugh>? Yes, they have. Okay. Yes. Although I, that's a, a, a, a horrible word for something so minor, right? Is

Leo Laporte (00:14:11):
It, is it minor? Is it minor? Let me just tell you a little story.

Paul Thurrott (00:14:14):
Tell you No. On Windows, Leo. No, no. I mean on Windows. It's

Leo Laporte (00:14:17):
Not minor. The iPhone?

Paul Thurrott (00:14:19):
No, the iPhone is not

Leo Laporte (00:14:20):
On Android. It's, I it's a Pixel thing. But, but on Windows, I mean, the idea was the sniping tool, if you crop, still retains the the crop parts of the image, right?

Paul Thurrott (00:14:31):

Leo Laporte (00:14:32):
Let me tell you why that's not minor. Let me tell you better. A young lady used to work for Tech tv.

Paul Thurrott (00:14:38):
Oh, okay.

Leo Laporte (00:14:41):
She she had a little personal photo shoot, brought a photographer and got some great pictures. Some of them were, you know, a little grown up. Not all of them, but one of them. She had a great expression on face, and she thought, this should be my headshot, my avatar. This should be what I use going forward, cropped it down, put it out. Even then, this is a 20 year old flaw. I don't think it was in Windows. I think it was in Photoshop. Somebody discovered that my, my goodness, the rest of her is still there.

Paul Thurrott (00:15:11):
Yeah. You could like control Zet back to where it was.

Leo Laporte (00:15:14):
Yeah. And so too much embarrassment I might add on her part. Oh,

Paul Thurrott (00:15:19):
No kidding. So okay, so yeah. You still think that she had released topless, what I mean,

Leo Laporte (00:15:24):
Herself unwittingly basically.

Paul Thurrott (00:15:26):
Yeah. That you don't do that with a screenshot tool though, <laugh>. What I'm saying is,

Leo Laporte (00:15:29):
I guess you wouldn't, you're right. I mean, you would

Paul Thurrott (00:15:31):
Do it, but what I meant by minor is from a usage perspective, most people are taking screenshots and Windows are probably taking screenshots and Windows. They're not taking, I mean, it could be a video capture or something. Absolutely. I mean, I know that I, I don't mean to say that there aren't instances where this could be bad for someone individually. What I mean is, broadly speaking,

Leo Laporte (00:15:49):
Broadly speaking was exactly the problem.

Paul Thurrott (00:15:52):
No, but <laugh> broadly speaking on Windows, oh, sorry. It's not a big deal. I do agree on a mobile phone Yeah. Where people tend to take, that's what you would use personal pictures and send them to loved ones and whatever mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But yes, that could be a bigger problem.

Leo Laporte (00:16:05):
Microsoft did fix it immediately though.

Paul Thurrott (00:16:07):
They did fix it very quickly.

Leo Laporte (00:16:08):
Yes. Yeah. They, they considered, and by the

Paul Thurrott (00:16:10):
Way, efficiently concerning if you want to be pro Microsoft about this event, you could say this proves the rationale for making that kind of a tool, something that's updated through the store and not part of Windows. Yeah. It doesn't have to wait for some release. You get it automatically. You don't do anything to get it. It just happens. The system works. Right. I mean,

Leo Laporte (00:16:30):
The system works. You know,

Paul Thurrott (00:16:32):
This is something that's what they said. All Silicon Valley Bank

Leo Laporte (00:16:35):
Collapsed. The system works. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:16:39):
Well, I mean, not the crypto system, but the, you know, the normal banking system. Normal is probably Okay. System works. Yeah. 

You, I see this, I switched back to Pixel recently. I see. You know, you look at what's being updated, you see things that are apps, you see things that are kind of like system things, but they're updated to the Play Store. Apple does this on iOS and, and Mac and wherever else. I mean, it, it, we've broken these things up in such ways that different pieces of the system can be updated in different ways. So anyway, that it, it's, you know, not so long ago a problem with like, what people think of the screenshots, which is like a system capability Right. Would be hard to fix, would require a Windows update of some kind, which means people could avoid it, you know? Yeah. And these days, that's happened through an app, and

Leo Laporte (00:17:23):
Now you can just slip it right in.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:25):

Leo Laporte (00:17:26):
No one even notices.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:28):
Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And that's nice because there are probably very few instances of anyone on Windows being harmed by this, if any, and now there won't be. Right. That's, it's nice. That's what I meant. That's what I meant. That's

Leo Laporte (00:17:40):
Fair. I'm just, I just like the name of AC Lye. That's all.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:44):
That's a good one. See, you know, I'm, I'm usually a fan of names like that. It's just so overblown in this case. It's

Leo Laporte (00:17:48):
Like, like it is an exactly apocalypse. It's

Paul Thurrott (00:17:52):
Yeah. You know, all these people taking, you know, screen grabs with the sniping tool,

Leo Laporte (00:17:57):
<Laugh> the billions of people. But Microsoft does want you to use that, right? I mean, they made a big deal.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:03):
Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:18:03):
Yeah. At least Panos Pane made a big deal about it. Sure.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:08):
Sure. I can't

Leo Laporte (00:18:09):
Wait to see those topless shots personally today. Yeah. It'll be, that'll be something to look for to Canary.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:18):
Yeah. So, so

Leo Laporte (00:18:19):
They did. So now it, the alpha, it's Alpha Beta Gamma is now what release? Alpha Beta Gamay release Space Canary.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:27):
They've added a Canary channel, which is akin to what, you know, the daily, well,

Leo Laporte (00:18:31):
Chrome started daily, but,

Paul Thurrott (00:18:32):
You know, web browsers is a can, a daily canary Yeah. Channel. Right. My theory on that one, and, you know, just a theory is that's Windows 12, right? That's where they're gonna test Windows 12. Now

Leo Laporte (00:18:44):
It's a, it's a daily build.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:46):
No, it's not. That's, I, as I said that, I'm like, actually, there

Leo Laporte (00:18:49):
Are windows, there

Paul Thurrott (00:18:50):
Are dailies. Canary tends to be daily and web browsers. It's not, it's not daily. I'm sure it's daily internal at Microsoft, but no, not

Leo Laporte (00:18:57):
Not. And, and they, and they used the canary term as in canary in the coal mine as it think dies first, I think, I guess they could have called it Kenny, but that Kenny Kenny would be good. Microsoft Windows. Kenny, I like it. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:10):

Leo Laporte (00:19:10):
Kill Kenny. Kenny

Paul Thurrott (00:19:12):
<Laugh>. Yep. Just, yeah, you Orange Wood, that's the symbol. That's it. Yeah. So I think that's where, I think this is where we're gonna start seeing some Windows 12 stuff, right. It doesn't mean that ex, you know, exclusively. So for example, the New Canary Build this past week has what I would call an evolved ux for the widget board. Could that appear in Windows 11 before there's a Windows 12, obviously, right? I mean, I thi right now, I, I, this is another step in the, you know, in whatever gets released to people. It's some, somewhere down the road. But I think someday we're gonna start seeing stuff that is gonna hold off until Windows 12. So nothing, nothing major here. I mean, most people I would imagine, ignore or turn off widgets right now. But we saw in, I think actually, I think it was in moment two, they added the full screen widget, you know, ui if you want to use the floating pain, it, currently it's two columns. It's gonna be three columns, you know, exciting. And then some stuff we're starting to see actually elsewhere in the inside a program like the US before Settings page, for example, is not unique to Canary. We've seen it elsewhere. So that's almost certainly gonna appear in Windows 11 before there's a Windows 12. So nothing, nothing huge going on here, but, you know, maybe someday

Leo Laporte (00:20:32):
Okay, let's

Paul Thurrott (00:20:34):
Start. All right. I'm done defending Microsoft now.

Leo Laporte (00:20:37):
Okay. <laugh>, you know, actually, before you get into this yes. Cause I liked your, I liked your rant. Unfortunately, you have to be a, not unfortunately, fortunately, you have to be a th premium member to read this. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But did you hear Steve Gibson's rant from yesterday?

Paul Thurrott (00:20:52):
I did not talk to me.

Leo Laporte (00:20:54):
Ah, mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. cuz this sways nicely into your rant. Okay. and I thought I would like to get Richard's take on it. So, apparently Microsoft has decided if you're using an older unsupported version of Exchange <laugh>, the email you send from it will no longer be accepted by Microsoft Properties like Outlook. Like it just will say, you know, you're, you know, if you're, you know, maybe you Richard, were running an outdated version of exchange. I know you never would. And and, and the family members decided to use it to send mail. That mail would be rejected at all. Microsoft hosted mail sites. And Steve was a little offended by that saying, basically, well, you've broken, you know, you've, you've broken email for the, you know, plainly venal purposes of making money, of getting people to update your

Rich Campbell (00:21:49):
Thoughts. Well, I mean, the ar the argument is that there have been several major breaches

Leo Laporte (00:21:55):
Oh, God. Involving,

Rich Campbell (00:21:56):
Involving old exchange servers. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:21:58):
Yes. Even not old exchange servers. Yeah. But the, is the mail sent by such servers dangerous?

Rich Campbell (00:22:06):
Well, with those breaches comes BCE types, attacks like that. There, therein lies the problem. Like they, that half exploit was an end-to-end exploit of, of exchange. And while the current version of Exchange server got patches to protect against Halff, tio, the old ones don't like all those small business server editions that people may still be running. They're not, there are no patches for that. Like, you're basically in, you know, the opposite. The alternative to this is saying patch every version of exchange at the beginning of time.

Paul Thurrott (00:22:37):
Well, what, what's the cutoff for this exchange version thing? What's the issue? Like what, we're talking 2003 and older, 2007 and older.

Rich Campbell (00:22:45):
What's the 2013 goes out of patch like in the next month.

Paul Thurrott (00:22:49):
I see

Rich Campbell (00:22:49):
It's 10 years.

Leo Laporte (00:22:51):

Rich Campbell (00:22:53):
So, I mean, therein lies the problem is there's plenty of exchange servers floating around out there. And so how do you, and they were the ones that didn't get patched in the first place,

Paul Thurrott (00:23:01):
Right? Right. Like, this is, this is an unsolvable problem. You either support these products for 10 years or you don't, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But then you run into exceptions where there's some huge percentage of companies in this case out in the world running this thing, or some government comes to you. This happened with windows xp, which had long been outta support. Yep. And the UK government came to Microsoft and said, look, our hospitals are all being held for ransomware. You gotta help us fix this. Yeah. And as Terry Myerson said at the time, what am I gonna do not fix this problem? Yeah. I mean, we get it. It's outta support. But you know, so what, sometimes you have to do the right thing, right? Yeah. this is a hard one.

Leo Laporte (00:23:38):

Rich Campbell (00:23:38):
Is, but this is a, a series of dramatic breaches. They're going to continue. It's a vehicle for propagating hacks. And so, you know, the idea that they would

Paul Thurrott (00:23:50):
Fly, so Microsoft have a free upgrade, they could offer companies to

Leo Laporte (00:23:53):
Fix this problem.

Rich Campbell (00:23:54):
<Laugh>. Yeah, that's an interesting point. Like, at least bundle this with a discount for showing your entire road server. We give you a year of exchange online. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Paul Thurrott (00:24:02):

Rich Campbell (00:24:03):
Right. Like, at least sweeten the pot a little. I mean, I, I, I get the problem cuz I've lived it, right? Like my server was got swept by the half damn hack. It didn't get breached for some configuration reasons, but that's just dumb luck on my part. Right? Like, and, and that you, in the end, they mostly fixed half nem by, by exploiting the breach to patch. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:24:30):
Richard, you'll probably remember this, what was the, it was an iiss slash sequel attack from a million years ago where Code Red, your, your home, well your, was your homepage was replaced with Hub been hacked by the Chinese

Rich Campbell (00:24:40):

Paul Thurrott (00:24:41):
Do you remember that one? That was so I got it. I I was hit by that. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:24:45):
You got it.

Paul Thurrott (00:24:46):
Nice. But, but I wasn't really, because it only worked if your ww route was folder was in the default location. Oh, right. But I always moved mine to a different drive. So in my default location, there was an HTML file that, you know, default on HTM or whatever that said, you've been hacked by the Chinese. Like, no, I haven't, it didn't get loaded know, because Yeah. Because I was lucky. Right. That was the only reason. Same

Rich Campbell (00:25:05):
Thing. My internal name, my external name from my mail servers are different. And you, the system wasn't set up for that. And so it got all the way in, but then didn't know the name of the server and couldn't continue.

Leo Laporte (00:25:15):
It is better to be lucky than good. I think we've come to this conclusion.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:20):
But it's good to be both. It

Leo Laporte (00:25:21):
Would be nice to be both. But if you had to choose,

Rich Campbell (00:25:24):
I mean, that being said, it doesn't stop me from putting Tony Redman on run as radio to rant thoroughly about this. Like, that will be a good half hour

Leo Laporte (00:25:32):
<Laugh>. I, you know, I think Steve, he's an old timer and his position really is that email should be sacrosanct. And if you've got a problem with, you know, buggy servers, which are your fault that you don't want a patch, which is your fault, you shouldn't punish, you shouldn't break email as a way of, you know, letting people know that they've got buggy

Paul Thurrott (00:25:54):
Servers. This couldn't be a better segue into what I wanted to talk about then, because this is perfect.

Leo Laporte (00:25:58):
That's why I brought it

Paul Thurrott (00:25:59):
Up. This is perfect.

Leo Laporte (00:26:00):
Tell me, Paul,

Paul Thurrott (00:26:02):
So a couple weeks ago, if you subscribe to Microsoft 365 family or personal, you probably saw a Windows Defender icon appearing your start menu. And you thought, what the heck is this stupid thing, <laugh>? I already have, I already have security on my computer. It's built in. Microsoft is going down a path that they went down 20, 25 years ago, which is their, their their, their res their responsible for insecurities and windows, and now they're charging you to fix those problems through security project. It's a

Leo Laporte (00:26:33):
Win-Win Paul <laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (00:26:35):
See, I would say for the user, that's a lose lose, lose

Leo Laporte (00:26:38):
Lose. But,

Paul Thurrott (00:26:39):
You know, it's

Leo Laporte (00:26:40):
Zero sum game, you know.

Paul Thurrott (00:26:41):
Now this one didn't impact me too too much because, I mean, I'm paying for this service anyway. I, I didn't pay for it for Windows Defender. I pay for it for OneDrive storage and for the desktop office apps and all that kind of stuff. But I've always had a problem with this and I had a problem with it back in the day. You know, I don't remember the exact timeframe of this. Early two thousands, Microsoft released a product called OneCare Windows Live. Onecare was a monthly or annual subscription service where they would fix the problems, the security and the security problems of Windows. Now the argument at the time, and, and now the argument today, cuz I've heard from a guy who worked in that team at Microsoft was very upset with me for having this opinion, is that well there are these third party companies, Affy and Norton, et cetera, who are stroking users for monthly or annual subscriptions that they, you know, that are more expensive than what Microsoft was charging.

And I said, yeah, but Microsoft created that industry. See if you just secured Windows from the get-go, they would not be necessary. And the other thing I would just point out is that whatever you think of those companies, I think they're worthless personal personally. But they do they have expanded their offerings to include other types of services related to privacy and security and whatnot. And so there's a whole suite of functionality there. If, if you feel safer or want that kind of stuff, I mean, God love you. But they have kind of changed with the times. The reason I wrote something recently about this, not this specific topic I just mentioned, but this topic of Microsoft and their business practices and their behavior in general is that they apparently have not changed over time. Because the Microsoft I knew in love when I was coming up as a younger guy, this belligerent monopolist from the 1990s that was destroying companies and lives left and right, kind of transitioned into a post antitrust saccharin suite, Satche Adela Erath thing where we love open source and Lennox is no longer a cancer and everything's great and let's all ring around the ro not ring around the rose.

That's a terrible song. But let's run around in a circle with flowers in our hair. In and in is is tied to the the, the black plague of 16. Yes. Yeah, exactly. That's why's why you thinking more kumbaya? Not I tried to ass ashes. We all fall down Down. Yeah. It turned it into like a Freddie Krueger movie there. But anyway it is amazing to me, and I kind of, it's like riding a bike kind of away that Microsoft could now, especially during the such and Nadela era kind of turn back to their old way of doing things. Right? This is the company that created teams to destroy Slack that had to be bought by Salesforce and bought, you know, that is now suing them. This is the company that is currently actually a negotiations to settle with cloud companies from Europe.

Which maybe Richard ties into what you're gonna talk to at the end of the show or not, I'm not sure. But Microsoft is currently under investigation in the EU for unfairly taking on these cloud like kind of third party cloud vendors in, in Europe. This is the company that forces use to use the Edge web browser, even when you specifically told it through its obtuse and useless user interface in Windows 11 that I wanna use Chrome, or Brave or Firefox or whatever it is that you chose to use. You know, this is the company that continuously advertises products and services inside of its products and services. Even though I'm not paying, I'm already paying for those products and services. How do you not know

Leo Laporte (00:30:04):
That? I saw your your tweet. I think it was, maybe it was on Mastodon, I'm hoping. Yeah, yeah. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> of the, he's saying, I would you please, I, what do I need to do to get you

Paul Thurrott (00:30:13):
Stop? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm begging you stop.

Leo Laporte (00:30:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:30:16):
I, I, you know, I'm sure your AI is perfect. How come this simpler thing is stupid <laugh>? Like, what, what, what I, you know, it doesn't make any sense to me.

Leo Laporte (00:30:26):
We don't any, now we, I have ai.

Paul Thurrott (00:30:30):
Yeah. I think

Leo Laporte (00:30:31):
Maybe there's a case, you know, this AI pause. Maybe there's a case that we shouldn't let AI get any smarter. It's just making us dumber.

Rich Campbell (00:30:39):
Oh, AI AI's not that smart in the first place. Like

Leo Laporte (00:30:41):
Yeah, that's true. All

Paul Thurrott (00:30:42):
Artist official dumbness this, you know, we're on the porch. You kid, you know, kids these days argument. Of course. Yeah. I mean, we live in, I I've already been upset with myself needing to use Google Maps to get anywhere in a car. Like I'd like to. I can't drive anywhere you're way around. Right?

Leo Laporte (00:30:56):
You're right. I have

Paul Thurrott (00:30:56):
No idea. There are so many examples of this dominating. It's, that would be a good point. I was speaking emojis now. Good,

Leo Laporte (00:31:03):
Good news video game to, to give people one of those Thompson guides and say, can you find your way across town? Yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:31:11):
Well even just figure out where you are. Yeah. Where are you? This, but this does feel like old man shakes fist cloud. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:31:19):
This welcome to this show. Richard, glad you've

Rich Campbell (00:31:22):
Discovered it. You don't need to grow your own food. You don't need to make your own electricity.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:26):
No, no. Yeah, for a hundred percent. When, when cars first came out, you had to be a qualified mechanic to even own such a thing yet mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah. Now even qualified mechanics can't repair them cuz they're computers. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:31:37):
You, which you, you plug into it and ask it how it feels. Right. Right. That's right.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:42):
No, I, listen, I recognize that part of the argument. I believe me, I, I I do get that, but I do, anyway, this bring it back to Microsoft. I think

Rich Campbell (00:31:51):
I, I'll I'll grab the point that I like the most from that whole ramp, Paul, which is okay, any time a a piece of equipment that I have purchased interrupts me Yes to and encourage me to purchas purchase something else unaccepted or, you know, to put its priorities ahead of my own. It is wrong.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:09):
That's the in certification.

Leo Laporte (00:32:10):
That's the

Paul Thurrott (00:32:11):
Certification. God bless Cory Doctor off for

Leo Laporte (00:32:13):
Coming up eating your seed corn. I thanked him for it. He was on,

Paul Thurrott (00:32:16):
On Sunday is perfect. I said, we, we, every time I have a teams meeting and I'm talking to someone live on video and it pops something up in the blocks, the video, it says, Hey Paul, did you know you could be shared an Excel spreadsheet right now? Yeah. It's like saying, Hey, did you know? Cause it's, you, you should know I'm in a meeting. You freaking idiot. <Laugh>. And why are you interrupting me? I mean, it's, it's crazy. So anyway, I Yes, I, I'm increasingly, I Microsoft is so under the radar right now, they're such an Oldsmobile from a kind of a brand perspective that I feel like they're getting away with stuff that they might not have otherwise. Were it not for the fact that antitrust regulators right now are a little busy Yeah. With

Rich Campbell (00:33:01):
Google. But then the big AI thing came along. Like, that's what was weird. This seemed to be a game they'd been playing for a decade Yep. Of kind of staying under the radar, being number two. Yes. You know, staying out of trouble with all of that, and then suddenly it's not that way anymore. Right. Like they, and it's, they do this thing in first place.

Paul Thurrott (00:33:20):
The thing is, I I I, the only thing I ha I mean, I'm not, I don't want to take, I don't want to say this the wrong way. I don't mean I want Microsoft to fail. I, I really, I don't mean it like that. But Microsoft does not have a good history of being first with anything

Rich Campbell (00:33:33):
No tech company does.

Paul Thurrott (00:33:35):

Rich Campbell (00:33:35):
Okay. They all suck at it. Yeah. They're used to chasing, that's what they know. And the moment they aren't, they're kind of lost.

Paul Thurrott (00:33:43):
Yeah. Right. Right. So this is them coming out of the gate first with this stuff is very interesting. They have clearly opened a Pandora's box of competition from all quarters, big and small and, you know, we'll see how it all, you know, falls out. But, you know, we saw little bits of this, you know, the pandemic happened and everything was free. And then the pandemic ended and all. Now we have teams Room Pro, and we have teams pro <laugh> and, and we, you know, all of a sudden everything's like extra. And it's like, I'm sorry, you're charging me for things that were free before. Now what, what is happening here? This is when you kind of realize what this company is all about. And by the way, I I, I have all my all these theories I've talked about, my theories about Windows 12 and AI and, and NPUs and everything. I have a theory that the reason they did this right now is that they could see that they were gonna have a, a lean several quarters post pandemic kind of falling apart type of thing. And they said, how can we bump the stock price and the revenues? And they were like, unleashed the AI hounds baby. This will, this will make the post pandemic malaise go away.

Rich Campbell (00:34:54):
Well, I get the giggles when you speak of Microsoft as a uniform entity of any Yes. Thank you. That's not, not even close ab

Paul Thurrott (00:35:01):
Well, absolutely fair.

Rich Campbell (00:35:03):
But there is, I like the, the chat. The chat E B T ends up with a hundred million users in two months. Yes. And the Bing team goes, Hey, yep. Wait.

Paul Thurrott (00:35:11):
Yes. We never got that. Ever. Not once. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:35:14):
So this dynamic between the different teams competing with each other and pressing against each other, the politics of all of that creates this belligerency. Yeah. Like, it's so much harder to have a, you know, agency over this giant beast. The far more likely thing is you have individual competitive groups.

Paul Thurrott (00:35:34):
You made the absolutely correct point that Microsoft is not this giant jellyfish organization where everything moves together. Absolutely true. But Microsoft is also an organ, a giant organization of upward mobility types. And they know that if they're not, they don't see AI on everything, they're not going anywhere. Right. And that's why everything is gonna be AI now at Microsoft, right? Yes. They, this is just

Rich Campbell (00:35:55):

Paul Thurrott (00:35:55):
It to tell them. I bet Sachin Dilla did tell them, but you don't have to anyone who's anyone is gonna AI the hell out of any everything they're doing. And

Rich Campbell (00:36:06):
Just, it's, it's the path to promotion, right? Like this is individuals may taking an opportunity the same as as they act X to everything and they measured everything and they dot netted everything. Like Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:36:20):
But this is, I mean, yes, but this time I don't remem I don't, I don't wanna misquote this. I dunno if it was Jeffrey Fowler from the Washington Post, or if this maybe it was a, an editorial in the New York Times. So somebody pointed out, this is a month ago, Microsoft has these AI ethics guidelines, or seven of them. Mm. And Bing chat broke six of them

Rich Campbell (00:36:39):
<Laugh>. Right. And the team got let go,

Paul Thurrott (00:36:42):
Broke them. And it's like, you gotta be kidding me. Like Yeah. So the something, you know, I don't know if someone backed into the spigot <laugh>, but whatever happened, it opened and, and now we're just throwing caution to the wind, you know?

Rich Campbell (00:36:57):
Yeah. For now, you know, the, there's, there's one group of the, the fast movers are the fast movers. The, the legal and the concerned folks are a little bit slower moving. Like, and this is a hype cycle,

Paul Thurrott (00:37:10):

Rich Campbell (00:37:11):
Right. Let's not forget you know, next comes the trough of disillusionment, but you don't make sure you know what fuck cell you are. Some ways you head into the trial

Paul Thurrott (00:37:20):
<Laugh>. But the difference bet for Microsoft, this is just very specifically Microsoft. Mm-Hmm. If you look at the past, you can pick your timeframe several years, 10 years, 15, whatever it is. There have been these hype cycles, like you said, they, they've been very Microsoft focused. Right. So like Microsoft Teams is something I think people out in the world like my wife has heard of. Cuz she has to deal with it sometimes. Yeah. But that's about as close as you can get to anything like this. This is, this is broad mainstream appeal, evening news, local newspapers, like by the

Rich Campbell (00:37:50):
Way, by accident. Right? Like, that's what I mean by

Paul Thurrott (00:37:53):
Accident. Like Yeah. So this

Rich Campbell (00:37:56):
Is not, they stumbled into an experiment that resonated with a hundred million people that apparently were desperate for existential conversations with a piece of software and, and then a marketing PR team inside of Microsoft grabbed onto it and ran with it. Yeah. And so far so good being AI that uptake

Paul Thurrott (00:38:15):
Microsoft, not your father's Oldsmobile. Right? Yeah. We can overcome that little bit of brand dissonance. They people even, it's like, it's bing bing. Oh, is it bing? Okay. It's bing. I guess it's bing. So now we, we just accepted it, you know, now this is Okay. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:38:30):
Now I have a conversational type. Yeah. Good conversation with a bad search engine. Excellent.

Paul Thurrott (00:38:35):
That's right. I know. Anyhow, I, I, I feel like I, good and bad that it came out of all Microsoft's antitrust stuff for sure. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I, I,

Rich Campbell (00:38:49):
And, and the antitrust ended in 2011. Right. The consent decree ended in 2011. It'ss been gone longer than it's existed.

Paul Thurrott (00:38:59):
I know, I know. But we entered the, you know, satin Delaware. It was

Rich Campbell (00:39:03):
20 14, 20 13, 13, you know, but yeah. That build event in 2014 was when you first really saw Satche doing his thing with a three hour keynote. Yeah. Followed by him in, you know,

Paul Thurrott (00:39:16):
Well, you know, the kinder

Rich Campbell (00:39:17):
Follow followed by him insulting the whole Grace Hopper conference and then he went to CEOs school, like Yeah. That was

Paul Thurrott (00:39:23):
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:39:25):
We don't remember that. That's that's a good good memory.

Paul Thurrott (00:39:28):
It's always good when the CEO of the company refers to your product as my o Office at the time. 365. Yeah. You know which is exactly what we all call it.

Rich Campbell (00:39:38):
But it's a, the Polish head MSPA was amazing too. Like a year later he had been to CEO school. That's interesting. He was slick. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:39:46):
Cuz all I remember is him as a, as a slick ceo. Forgot

Rich Campbell (00:39:50):
That first year. That was a bumpy first year.

Paul Thurrott (00:39:52):
I told you the first time I ever met him, ward Ralston introduced him to me. He was, he had, was part of the Windows server team. I was there for reviewer's cont 

Rich Campbell (00:40:00):
He had hair

Paul Thurrott (00:40:01):
Workshop. I'd never heard of this guy. So Yeah. I shook his hand and I said, oh, good. Fresh meat. <Laugh> Jesus <laugh>. Oh my God, Paul, that was my one time

Rich Campbell (00:40:11):
Oh's. So

Paul Thurrott (00:40:11):
Great. He never spoke. It's weird. He hasn't seen you

Leo Laporte (00:40:13):
Again. Yeah. <laugh>. Oh my God. All right on that note. Yep. can we take a break or are you finished? Sure. ranting

Paul Thurrott (00:40:22):
What? Of ranting? I'm just,

Leo Laporte (00:40:23):
No, it actually wasn't a rant. <Laugh> it was kind of mild. I was hoping for more, to be honest, to be frank, I'm

Paul Thurrott (00:40:27):
Just, I'm just pointing out that this kinder, gentler Microsoft I think has disappeared.

Leo Laporte (00:40:32):
Yeah. It's well, you know, I've been reading the, you know, all these sad departures.

Rich Campbell (00:40:40):
Yeah. they're, they're not being kind and gentle to their own people. No. Like, it really is an odd I know it's a culture

Paul Thurrott (00:40:45):
Hit. Yep. And yeah, that's, by the way, that's, that's a another point on in that the list of points, right? I mean mm-hmm. <Affirmative> the way, not just the way they've gotten rid of people, but who they've gotten rid of.

Leo Laporte (00:40:55):

Paul Thurrott (00:40:56):
Makes no

Leo Laporte (00:40:57):
Sense. It's, but, but everybody's doing. And I don't, I really don't understand it. Cause these are all profitable, highly profitable businesses. I mean, usually yes. You don't lay people off, especially in, in, in five figure numbers unless you know, you're in trouble. Right. So it's just, it's, I mean, same thing at all these other companies too. It's really

Paul Thurrott (00:41:18):
That's the right, I, I can't hold Microsoft any more accountable than any other big, big tech company, but I do

Rich Campbell (00:41:24):
Think it's, no, they, but that's only if you're, if you're me. But if you're me chewing it, it's the 10,000 people on a, at 8:00 AM on a Monday, and then it's over this rolling

Leo Laporte (00:41:33):
Mug it out. Oh my

Rich Campbell (00:41:34):
God. Over and over and over again. Like, it's so demoralizing to the, and

Leo Laporte (00:41:40):

Rich Campbell (00:41:40):
The rest of the company,

Leo Laporte (00:41:41):
Basically all my Twitter feed is now is people saying goodbye mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, which in a way is not <laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (00:41:48):
Well, and also you're looking for at Twitter

Rich Campbell (00:41:50):
And also shock, right? Yeah. Like, that's the thing. It's like, it's, it's not just that they're being like 10

Leo Laporte (00:41:56):
Years blind speaking on Azure and 20 years at the company, I'm now looking for work. It's like, oh

Paul Thurrott (00:42:02):
My God. Which is not something those kinds of people should be thinking about.

Rich Campbell (00:42:05):

Leo Laporte (00:42:07):
Well either not

Rich Campbell (00:42:08):
That or not that they don't think they're gonna get scooped up. Right. Like, generally speaking, we still have a lot of jobs in tech that need to be fixed.

Leo Laporte (00:42:14):
Well, this is what's interesting and they're not in big tech companies that there are huge numbers of openings in normal companies like mine and yours that we, we can't get these people cuz big tech's been stealing them effectively Yeah. With stock options. And now

Rich Campbell (00:42:29):
They're, and arguably overt stole them, like back to they hired 40,000 people in 2022. Yep. Right? Like, that's just a lot of

Leo Laporte (00:42:36):
People, but they're going back into the workplace and Yeah. I hope you're finding a gainful employee. I,

Rich Campbell (00:42:41):
And I think, you know, Paul makes this point. It's like, it sure feels like there's fear for the latter half of this year in terms of revenue. Well, look what's happened with PCs let's all of these markets, I think this is the bump after the pandemic. Yeah. And the re and the bump from the supply chain

Paul Thurrott (00:42:58):
Problems. The point I had made months ago was, did, did we not understand that there was an irrational euphoria Yeah. In big tech during the pandemic. Yes. That this thing that was Flo, you know, floating their boat there was gonna stop. Like eventually the pandemic doesn't wast the hard stop. I think we were all looking for, but it wound down, no, the buying spree ends. Right? I mean, you know, Amy hood, the c f O of Microsoft came out during a, you can find it, it's in a conference call. She's like, man, we had no idea how important win is it? I mean our mistake what, what Look, what are you doing? Why would you say that out loud? <Laugh>. Yeah. Even if it's true, don't say that. That's true. The quiet part out loud. It makes you look bad. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:43:39):
Yeah. Yeah. Windows. Who knew?

Paul Thurrott (00:43:42):
I, we, yeah. Who knew? I don't know, maybe the eight to 11 billion in revenues that earned every quarter might have been there. Oh. Knew. We didn't know, you know, and nothing.

Rich Campbell (00:43:50):
No. Totally surprised.

Leo Laporte (00:43:52):
It was a shock to us.

Rich Campbell (00:43:53):
Yeah. But sometimes that language is for a market reaction. Right. It's right. This is not about what they actually think. It's what they need to say. Oh, that's interesting. But I can't find a way to justify Yeah. Tormenting your staff for three months. No.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:08):
Well now and especially in the wake of massive overstaffing that occurred everywhere in big tech. Right? Yes. And that's what I mean, it's not just Microsoft. I, I, they're not alone in this, but I don't understand how, how you couldn't have seen that this was

Rich Campbell (00:44:20):
Temporary. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. You overhired by 10,000 people, so you torture 200,000. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I don't understand

Paul Thurrott (00:44:25):
The math. Oh. And among them, some of your longest term employees, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, the, the public faces of things in many cases. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> excellent speakers, excellent communicators. It just, what are you doing?

Leo Laporte (00:44:37):

Rich Campbell (00:44:38):
And of course you, they are crying all the way to the bank with big severances. Sure. But and, and speaking kindly of them being tossed. Yeah. One word ceremony.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:48):
Maybe that's,

Leo Laporte (00:44:50):
That's why you do that now, because you, you've got the money to fire them equitably. Mm-Hmm. Is that possible

Rich Campbell (00:44:57):
At the same time? Like, why do it so nasally fire? Like how, how does the, what is the PR value of letting these people go publicly? Right. And, and slowly over time, like it baffles

Leo Laporte (00:45:08):
Me. Right.

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Paul Thurrott (00:47:25):
No. So Microsoft kind of teased this a few months back. We've known it was coming, you know, the old teams was based on Electron. And so now they're up, they're, they're BA or they're announcing and we'll roll out broadly in the next couple of months, the new version of Teams, which sounds like an Apple product, right? It's two times faster. It uses 50% less memory. Like these are big numbers, right? This is, you know, how awful was the other app? Well, have you used it? So actually these things kind of make sense. The big thing to me though isn't so much, you know, this is a new design, sort of, it still looks like teams to me. But the big thing here is going to be the multiple profile support. Which is something we've had on teams on mobile, but not on desktop, which has never made a lot of sense. But we're getting it now finally on like what I would call big teams. You know, the, the, the mainstream desktop clients,

Rich Campbell (00:48:18):
Big teams. When we argue this is the solution to Tenant iis <laugh>. Yeah. And

Paul Thurrott (00:48:24):
What's Tenant iis? So wait a minute, what's that tennis problem? No, no. Wait. Is that when your

Rich Campbell (00:48:28):
Elbow hurts? Yeah. Yeah, your elbow definitely hurts cuz you keep having to switch between counselee. Which one can I actually go to this meeting on? Yeah. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:48:35):
Exactly. You know,

Rich Campbell (00:48:36):
I've got some right thing that says go join meeting, but I can join the meeting because it's in one of the other tenants. Right. And for better or worse, cuz I'm often a beta tester on this stuff. I have a tenant that's just marked Microsoft. There you go. And it, what it does is break things like never click on that. Cuz the scary part about the full teams client is it'll actually change the security association of Windows when you switch that tenant. Like all kinds of apps suddenly break. Cuz I'm now a different person inside this machine. Okay. And so then you get into the problem between the act, the Azure identity and the msa, the original Microsoft identity and Heaven help you if you happen to use the same email address for both cuz you didn't know. And now the order of login.

Paul Thurrott (00:49:24):
Yes. This is the, the dumbest thing Microsoft has ever allowed. Yep. Someone on a corporate account or what I call a a worker school account to use that as a Microsoft account. And then God helped them. They start subscribing to Xbox services or baking purchases or whatever it is. And it's like, guys, you're gonna lose everything cause there's no

Rich Campbell (00:49:43):
Transition. Listen, I don't en the identity problem is outta Microsoft is a legacy problem. It's decades and decades of stuff. I'm, I've been calling Identity the third rail of Microsoft <laugh> because

Paul Thurrott (00:49:54):

Rich Campbell (00:49:54):
Destroys careers inside of Microsoft to try and solve that problem. It, it's unbelievable

Paul Thurrott (00:50:01):
Difficult. This is I'm afraid what you have done is you've kicked the wood pile and the cockroaches are gonna start coming out in the snakes. Because million years ago, Microsoft offered this way. I, in ie I guess where you could kind of switch between Microsoft accounts right at, on the fly. And then they got rid of it because there was some big problem. Who knows? It's, and I'm talking this like 20 years ago. It was a long time ago. And people still ask for this or they'll ask for like, well they must, they'll, they must someday offer the ability for me to transition from one Microsoft account to another. This would solve that work in school account problem. Where you turn that into a Microsoft account, you maybe lost your job, you're leaving school, whatever it is. You're like, well, I wanna let stuff, can I move it over to a, you know, an account like that? Yeah. Nope. You

Rich Campbell (00:50:48):
Can't. No. because, and, and you understand how this happened, right? Like you think back to, you know, before Azure at all, it's like each of these different Microsoft properties had its own identity stack. Yep. There were dozens of them. Yeah. The idea that we can consolidate that, like that's third rail

Paul Thurrott (00:51:05):
Stuff, man, passport. Remember that? Well of course you were done. You were there.

Rich Campbell (00:51:09):
They were, they were trying to do o o long before oth Of course they also timed the announcement of that right as they were declared pernicious monopoly. So that went well. <Laugh>, that's rights. Like That's right. Hey, we may beat a monopoly. That's right. But give us all your identity information. Well, this

Paul Thurrott (00:51:23):
Is right. So yeah. That's a Microsoft had an initial, it my services hailstorm announcement. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, where they actually had a bunch of partners show up. American Express was one. Yeah. they were all gonna do this. And then within, I wanna say two, three months, every one of 'em, but I backed out there, were like, we're absolutely not doing

Rich Campbell (00:51:40):
This. And it's not, cuz the technology was bad. It was a PR catastrophe. The timing was sucked, was horrifying. Yep. And, and it's kind of amazing. Nobody sort of took a step back after those announcements.

Paul Thurrott (00:51:50):

Rich Campbell (00:51:50):
Is. And, and said, Hey, this is gonna go badly for

Paul Thurrott (00:51:53):
Us. This is exactly the argument that companies did not make with Apple and Google, with the mobile app store initially. At least not in for us, which was we don't want another company standing between us and our customers.

Rich Campbell (00:52:06):

Paul Thurrott (00:52:06):
And with Microsoft, they said no. With Apple. They were like, eh,

Rich Campbell (00:52:11):
Well Apple, you may get in. Apple didn't set out to make the store they needed to because the phone had been jailbroken. And their whole pitch was, here's how we stop this from exploiting the phone. Right. Right. We are going to take the liability that it go through this. We've, we've vetted it's gonna be okay and we'll take 30%, whatever. You know, and you can't speak your customer directly anymore. Yeah. Yeah. That's just a given. Eric, it was in the notes. Right. It it, the other, the, the other thing about the teams announcement is it's the end of Electron. Right? Yeah. Well, at least for teams. Yeah. Well, a lot of other things

Leo Laporte (00:52:50):
Use Electron. You think it's the end of Electron? That would

Rich Campbell (00:52:52):
Be so great. Well, I think it's a shot over the bow. My presumption when GitHub, it's also the

Leo Laporte (00:52:57):
End of uwp. And

Rich Campbell (00:52:59):
Well, all the other

Leo Laporte (00:52:59):
Microsoft technologies, they rejected in favor of React. Right.

Rich Campbell (00:53:03):
Well, <laugh>,

Paul Thurrott (00:53:05):
They're all dead.

Rich Campbell (00:53:06):
It's well, and they're all dead in an in a, in, in a coffin called Maui. But, you know, no, they're not using isn't back to keep, they're trying to keep that one alive. Like at least they're consolidating there. We'll see how it goes. Why didn't they

Leo Laporte (00:53:18):
Just outta curiosity.

Rich Campbell (00:53:19):
Do you know? Why didn't they, what, why, why

Leo Laporte (00:53:20):
Are they using, I mean, I'm, I'm happy to see them using React, but I'm just That's, isn't that a Facebook tool? I mean, I'm just surprised. Look,

Paul Thurrott (00:53:28):
Yeah, but it's, they have, they're just going where developers are, you know? Yeah. I'm surprised they haven't adopted Flutter at this point. Honestly.

Rich Campbell (00:53:37):
Yeah, it that

Leo Laporte (00:53:38):
Would be hysterical.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:40):
<Laugh>. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:53:41):
It's also a phenomenally good tool. Right? Like it therein lies the real problem. Do you remember when when they wanted to move all of the Bing blogs to an active service page solution? And, and the as p guys didn't wanna do it, so they moved to WordPress and that meant actually using the MySQL backend too. Wow. So that was SQL Server guys are like, what the, you know, if you just go best of breed for technologies, sometimes you send a message to your customers or prospective customers too. So, you know, they're, they're, they're definitely up against this. But the, the bottom line was there was an expectation that Electron with Electron being more closely soda with Microsoft, it was going to get dramatically better. And that didn't happen.

Leo Laporte (00:54:23):
Is that, well, electrons, GitHub, right?

Rich Campbell (00:54:26):

Leo Laporte (00:54:26):
Right. So, because Microsoft but it predates Microsoft with

Rich Campbell (00:54:30):
Github, without a doubt. They, they bought

Leo Laporte (00:54:31):
Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. 

Rich Campbell (00:54:33):
Yeah. And so the assumption was now the Windows team and the Electron team are gonna be friendly and they're, there's gonna be optimizations that happen in Windows to allow Electron to perform better. It's like, make Windows the best electron host possible. Does not appear to have happened. Yeah. I don't think the proof is they moved off of

Paul Thurrott (00:54:48):
It <laugh>. Right.

Rich Campbell (00:54:51):
I mean, the fact that they would move away from that and, and do an alternative rather than just like, you own the stack, why not improve it? Oh, what else is wrong then? That you've decided that a better way to improve this is to do it a different way. Right?

Paul Thurrott (00:55:07):
So the new one is React, isn't it? Is that the, is that the title? They

Leo Laporte (00:55:11):
Replaced Angular. They're not using I'm trying to find where, where I saw this. I, I mean, what, what I'm basing this on is a, is a tutor a tweet from somebody saying what? Yeah. Look how Microsoft didn't use Maui, didn't

Paul Thurrott (00:55:25):
Use Listen at this point. As long as it's not ai, I'll take it Care <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:55:30):
Yeah. I think it's React and WebView, right? Something like that.

Rich Campbell (00:55:33):
But, and a lot of that has is to do everything to do with timing. Right. Maui is still very new. This has been in the works clearly for years mm-hmm. <Affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And, and so now they're finally getting to a place where it, you know, they, they had to, they had to do it a different way. And so yeah. It went from an electronic angular to WebView two and React,

Leo Laporte (00:55:53):
Which is more modern.

Paul Thurrott (00:55:54):
The fu not to, I don't want to get off on a massive sidetrack. Mm-Hmm. But it's possible that the future of Maui, which is Microsoft's kind sort of flutter, like cross-platform development suite or whatever, Zamarin replacement, Zamarin forms replacement is this integration. They have a Blazer, which is a web app technology. And maybe that is, maybe that's where that goes in the future. Maybe that this thing that is now kind of an add-on, you know optional piece maybe that becomes

Rich Campbell (00:56:23):
The logical implementation is web assembly. Right? Like, that is the logical way to do this. Yep. The, the, the, the advantage of operating in the context of the browser is you already have a security perimeter. Right? When I put my IT guy hat on, what do I want? Stop installing software on my computer. They're all vulnerability problems. We already have a browser. So as long as you can run in that context, we know what the security envelope's like. Life is good. Just don't make

Paul Thurrott (00:56:47):
Yeah. It sucks. So, right. So that, right. In a very general way, what you basically just said was, this uses the good part of the browser. Right. Whereas Electron is like the bad part of the browser. It's like, we want something as big and heavy as Chrome <laugh>, but

Rich Campbell (00:57:02):
We're gonna take dependency on Chrome. So you're gonna see all these Chromes the problems, but we're also gonna work in JavaScript so that we make the most un unmanageable piece of code we possibly can <laugh>. Right? Right. And, you know, and, and you know, it may be somewhat functional and somewhat ho oriented, but he certainly can consume a lot of memory. So let's run a bunch of it.

Paul Thurrott (00:57:19):
<Laugh>, where, so you've used, you have used the new teams, right? And you actually, I mean, do you, aside from the fact that, I know it looks a little different, but do you actually notice no.

Rich Campbell (00:57:30):
Not a thing

Paul Thurrott (00:57:30):
Is, yeah. I was gonna, cause I mean, honestly, I feel like I don't, I, I feel like I would be sensitive to this. I, I hate teams for a lot of reasons, but I've never once thought I'm like, okay, like, come on, start up already. Let's go. Like I, it's never felt slow in day-to-day,

Rich Campbell (00:57:44):
No usage. Wait, the problems you have with Teams is it forgot all of your devices again. So now you're mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you're trying to, that's all UX stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Now, trying to use the microphone while on the camera and the speakers in the, in well, yeah. In, in the monitor. That's a big update. That's why. And then the tenant, right. The tenant is the problem. And so tackling the tenant problems are smart. But it also shows cheaper and co that they can completely rewrite teams. And it's not the end of the world.

Leo Laporte (00:58:11):
Did you look, did you use a resource monitor just to see if it uses less Ram or,

Rich Campbell (00:58:15):
I, I'm gonna have to run it for a while. You know, it's, it's the rot over time that matters. Because that's the

Leo Laporte (00:58:20):
Complaint of course, with Electron, is it's just a pig.

Rich Campbell (00:58:23):
Yeah. Right. And that's, and that isn't Electron. That's JavaScript. Oh, is it really? That is those engines. Yeah. If you've gotta use JavaScript. Cause JavaScript doesn't clean itself up particularly well. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:58:34):
But isn't So we, we've gone over this, I think, but Visual Studio Code isn't that electron. It

Rich Campbell (00:58:38):
Is. It is Electron.

Leo Laporte (00:58:39):
Are they rewriting

Paul Thurrott (00:58:40):
It? No, I've done, I'm telling you this thing is fast and light and

Rich Campbell (00:58:44):

Paul Thurrott (00:58:45):
Very well, maybe it's

Rich Campbell (00:58:46):
Not. It's very well written. Right. Like that there's where they really leaned on what electrons good at. It may

Leo Laporte (00:58:53):
Be that the complaint about Electron isn't really so much that it's a pig. It's just that it's a whole browser bundled into a,

Paul Thurrott (00:59:00):
An app. Yeah. And well,

Rich Campbell (00:59:01):
One and a focus app and

Leo Laporte (00:59:03):
It's just, it offends people. That's all.

Rich Campbell (00:59:05):
Yeah. Well, and it's a focus on cross platform, which makes life hard. Yeah. Right. Like it's very difficult to make vs. Code good everywhere. But that team has done a great job of it. I think the team's folks are moving much more quickly with a much broader feature set,

Paul Thurrott (00:59:20):
Basically identical from what I can tell. I mean, it works really well. Cross-Platform.

Leo Laporte (00:59:25):
Yeah. Yeah. It's great.

Rich Campbell (00:59:27):
I would argue

Paul Thurrott (00:59:28):
Is it on a three

Rich Campbell (00:59:29):
Will probably be web assembly and web, because web Assembly allows you to operate in that context, but bring your own language.

Paul Thurrott (00:59:36):
Okay. Yep. Okay.

Rich Campbell (00:59:41):
We're just, it's a path like the, now that they've got control of this code based to the point where they're willing to do that, there are many other choices. But it also is a shot across the bio of Electron to say, be better. Cuz there, cuz there are, are alternatives and that we're always better off when there's more than one way to solve this problem.

Paul Thurrott (00:59:59):
Hey, Microsoft has a rich history of not using its own technology stack. So <laugh>, this is entirely in keeping,

Rich Campbell (01:00:05):
Especially when they're problematic, right?

Paul Thurrott (01:00:08):
Yep. Yep. Hmm. Okay. I am really curious to see this. I, I mean I'm kind of stuck. I have to use teams, you know, I don't really have a choice,

Rich Campbell (01:00:18):
So No, you, you and I both, and that's sort of reality. You, but you know, here we are using Zoom and the new version of Zoom is web assembly.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:27):
I, I heard that as Zoom and I thought that is,

Leo Laporte (01:00:31):
Well, in, in a related story it looks like you will be able to use teams on your Surface Hub two s.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:42):
Yeah. So this was

Leo Laporte (01:00:43):
<Laugh>. See how I got back to the point that I missed? You see how I did that?

Paul Thurrott (01:00:46):

Leo Laporte (01:00:47):
Are you grateful or mad? I mean,

Paul Thurrott (01:00:50):
<Laugh>. I am, I am. So I don't, I don't even know how to describe this story because it was mic, the initial Microsoft blog post was so incorrect that I had, I read it three times. I changed the story. I wrote about it three times Oh wow. After I published it. And then this morning I got up and some guy from Microsoft said, Hey there's actually two mistakes in this story that you wrote, but it's not your fault. Cuz they were wrong in the initial book. Jet

Leo Laporte (01:01:14):
GBT four wrote it. That's probably why

Paul Thurrott (01:01:17):
<Laugh>, yeah. Yeah. That this is the future, right? So, alright, so I I have a hard time wrapping my head around this because there hasn't been a lot of news in this front because of the pandemic. But before the pandemic, Microsoft had something called Surface Hub. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, remember Surface Hub came at a 55 inch and a 82 inch version. These were their collaborative screens. Multiple people could stand in front of it, right. On it together at the same time. It was designed for that world of the past where we used to meet together in rooms. It was fun. And then they were coming up with the second gen version and the second gen version, there was gonna be two, there was gonna be the two x. That's the exciting one. Remember you could put multiple screens together. They were on tripods and everything.

It was gonna be amazing, gorgeous looking thing. And then they came up with something called two s, which was based on the old design, where they were gonna bring the, the software from two X forward and still have 55 and 82 inch versions. Okay, cool. Then the pandemic happened and it was like, oh, no one is going in rooms together, so nobody needs this. They, they, nobody needs this anymore. So what they did, I actually thought this was kind of cool them, they said, we're gonna allow owners of these devices to install Windows 10 Pro or or Enterprise on them and just use them as giant PCs basically. Right? Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, we're gonna, you're gonna have that experience. You'll have all the software, whiteboard, everything's there. And because no one is meeting in rooms together, we're gonna do this thing separately from this. Microsoft came up with something called Microsoft or Teams Rooms. Right? Right. Which is a very much what it sounds like. It is a, it's basically kind of the, the software version of the original Surface Hub idea. We're go, we're going back to rooms now where there's gonna be people there, but there're also gonna be people that are not there. So it's like a hybrid meeting solution,

Rich Campbell (01:02:55):
Which was always a part of Surface. Right? Right. Surface Hub was always about, and every person can be,

Paul Thurrott (01:02:59):
But we're gonna Yeah. Kind of take it out of surface. In other words, make a, a market for a third party surface hub, like devices, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So there are a lot of teams, rooms, devices now. And obviously if you have a surface hub, you're like, well, hold on a second. I mean, I have a Surface hub, how come I can't do this? You know? So what they just announced was, this is the, I'm just gonna say it correctly, not what they said, but if you have an existing Surface Hub to s you'll, I don't wanna call it upgrade cuz you could have taken it from Surface Hub OS to Windows 10 to teams from os. Right. But you're gonna be able to put teams from o os on this thing. If you have one already and a second gen surface hub to us is coming out this fall, that will have this built in automatically. I don't know, we don't know anything about that yet. If it's gonna be upgraded hardware, you know, nobody knows

Rich Campbell (01:03:51):
The conversations I've had around Hub

Paul Thurrott (01:03:53):
This very confusing post

Rich Campbell (01:03:54):
This, this was the product that was replacing old projectors, right? Instead of buying a new projector for the office so that you would plug your laptop and so forth in, and now we have the screen and it's actually the whole computer. And so yeah. It's configured for collaboration, it's configured with that kind of work. It's simpler for you to use, bring your identity that's right to the device rather than bring your device to the room.

Paul Thurrott (01:04:14):
Yeah. The, the most computing devices, you as the individual, you're signed in and you're on that device. It's you and your device. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So with the service hub, you could have multiple people signed in at the same time. Yeah. you could have multiple people with pens, giant surface pens that look like markers. You could write on it and collaborate on a whiteboard, whatever. There were, you know, over time teams came to it, other apps, et cetera, et cetera. So it's followed a very interesting path. I don't know cuz they haven't said, I don't know, whatever, if anything is gonna happen to the two X product <laugh>, you

Rich Campbell (01:04:45):
Know. Yeah. I think it's got it got canceled, right? Like it, it, I think it's got, I think, but you know, these are, these are originally Alex Kipman products that then got Tokyo by other teams and evolved. I hope he took them them with them. Yeah. Remember they remember originally was a table, right. And then they've evolved from there. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:05:01):
Table the

Rich Campbell (01:05:02):
The software was always the weak part with all of this. Didn't they buy a company though? Pixel Perfect. That did.

Paul Thurrott (01:05:08):

Rich Campbell (01:05:08):
Pixel sets did screen pixel. Big, big screen. So that's the original hub. Well, I remember the table cause I remember going like to casinos, this table

Paul Thurrott (01:05:15):
That the pixel sets display, they, they took the name Pixel Spins Sense for the surface displays. Yep. And then the ju the big pixel sense became basically the 82 inch

Rich Campbell (01:05:25):
Surface hub became the hub. And the, and the software was the battle. Right. They were always trying to build custom versions of Windows and so forth. And now it's been subsumed by teams. Teams

Paul Thurrott (01:05:35):

Rich Campbell (01:05:36):
A teams collaboration tool teams. And so That's right.

Paul Thurrott (01:05:39):
Yeah. And don't worry, it's based completely in electrons, so it's gonna run fast, <laugh>, and

Rich Campbell (01:05:45):
But this is where this teams roomos comes from. So now I'm talking to IT folks that are retrofitting their, their meeting spaces with teams rooms for exactly that reason. You don't have to bring your laptop in and waste that 20 minutes That's getting it up and running with the rig. That's you walk in, you log in. Yes. And there's your presentation. Off you go. That's

Leo Laporte (01:06:06):
Actually great.

Rich Campbell (01:06:07):
And how much does, does this thing

Paul Thurrott (01:06:09):
Cost? Well, yeah, dollars. <Laugh>, it's not cheap. Very expensive. I mean the, yeah, I don't rem the price had gone up over time. I wanna say the small one might be in the five grand range and the big one is, or maybe five to eight grand Google.

Rich Campbell (01:06:23):
They actually, Google

Leo Laporte (01:06:25):
Briefly sold something like this, but it was more like a Fisher Price version of it. But I think they stopped.

Paul Thurrott (01:06:31):
That's right. But it's a great idea and I I, if I could afford it, I'd love it.

Rich Campbell (01:06:34):
There we go. I've got the Canadian Canadian price. The 50 inches, $12,000 Chase, 85 inch is $29,000.

Leo Laporte (01:06:43):
That's Canadian.

Paul Thurrott (01:06:44):
Yeah. So it's, I think it's

Rich Campbell (01:06:45):
A Canadian money. So a dollar 54

Paul Thurrott (01:06:47):
Bucks 10 I think is the, yeah. Anyway, so, but, but people have asked me why would they, why would they sell these things when you can get less expensive, you know, interactive displays for meeting rooms and teams. It has any which teams building teams, rooms compatible. Yeah. Well because it's Microsoft, right? I think some people, you know, you're, you have some enterprise servicing agreement with Microsoft. You're buying, you might be buying fleets of surface devices. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> for your, cus you users rather. This is just, it's you just kind of all in

Rich Campbell (01:07:17):
On it. The surface hub story was always hilarious. Cause I think they made to build them as reference devices so that Lenovo and HP would build them mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and then everybody ordered them to the point where you couldn't get one at one point it was like a year waiting to get a surface hub.

Paul Thurrott (01:07:31):

Rich Campbell (01:07:32):

Paul Thurrott (01:07:33):
Was the, what was the Google thing called? I, that's bugging me? I can't think of it.

Leo Laporte (01:07:35):
Oh yeah. It was

Paul Thurrott (01:07:36):
Something isn't had a funny name. Looked like it was an easel.

Leo Laporte (01:07:39):
Yeah. I can't remember that. Surface. Yeah. This was the one where you could turn it, they could have two of them and turn 'em sideways and they'd merge and meld.

Paul Thurrott (01:07:47):
That was the X, that was the two x. That one X

Leo Laporte (01:07:50):
Was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. They

Rich Campbell (01:07:51):
Didn't was that gone? It was amazing in demo. Like we never really saw production version

Paul Thurrott (01:07:55):
Of it. Right. Because the pandemic happened. So Yeah. It was probably build 2019. Right, right before the pandemic. Yeah. We got to play with 'em hands on. They were great. We were like, yep. This is really, you know, this is the future. And then the future wasn't the future.

Rich Campbell (01:08:10):

Leo Laporte (01:08:11):
Jamboard. Yeah. That's Jamboard, that was a pixel thing.

Paul Thurrott (01:08:14):
I'm surprised with a name like that. Every time they rang up a sale, the thing would say, you've

Leo Laporte (01:08:19):
Got jams, you've got jam. You can actually during the one of the things that happened during the Twitter auction is they sold a bunch of jam boards.

Rich Campbell (01:08:28):
Jama jam boards. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:08:29):

Paul Thurrott (01:08:31):
Which it was, I think was a sign of excellent decision making on that company's part that they had so many.

Leo Laporte (01:08:35):

Rich Campbell (01:08:36):
Yeah. But the, the great thing about this teams room os is that it's, it's already up and running. Like you don't have to start up teams. You don't have to wait for the update. You don't have to switch the tenant. Like all of that stuff is done. You walk into the meeting room

Leo Laporte (01:08:50):

Rich Campbell (01:08:50):
You, and it already shows that your meeting's about to start. So who knows what identity you should be using, right. Because you've got it on a calendar. So you're just getting the, the, there seems to be, and I know this is Jeff Debber, how many minutes from the time that the meeting was supposed to start to you're actually doing the meeting and all of the stuff they're doing there is about shortening that cycle up.

Leo Laporte (01:09:12):
All right. I love it. I think it's great. All and you see, you know, I was, there's a show I like to watch,

Paul Thurrott (01:09:19):
Watch a Jeff Keeper story

Leo Laporte (01:09:20):
On HBO O called Succession and mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and just came back. First episode. New season. Yeah. New season. And it, and the first thing is the kids sitting around and I think now as I think about it, it must be a surface hub, a big screen. They're on a meeting with some designers who are showing something and then the, and it's a tv, it's a big TV in the living room. Oh. But wait a minute. No, it maybe cuz then he closes the, to hang up on him. He closes the laptop <laugh> and it goes <laugh>. So maybe it's not a hub come to think of it.

Rich Campbell (01:09:54):
Well it could also just

Paul Thurrott (01:09:55):
Be just, just promoting a display. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:09:57):
It'd also just be writers. Right. They decided that's how they're gonna shut it down. Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:10:01):
Yeah. I mean it's perfect. Yeah. Right. Cuz otherwise it's not as effective as slamming the left <laugh>. And

Paul Thurrott (01:10:06):
Like the, the funny thing is like a surface hub today would probably look like it has giant bezel.

Leo Laporte (01:10:13):
It would probably compared

Paul Thurrott (01:10:14):
Yeah. We have these beautiful 4K TVs now, AK TVs, whatever with like zero, you know, they look like infinity pools. Like this thing probably looks like a plasma TV set from the, you know, early two thousands.

Rich Campbell (01:10:27):
Yeah. There anyway, you're not wrong.

Leo Laporte (01:10:30):
Yeah. And I think probably

Paul Thurrott (01:10:32):
I'm just, you know, comparatively speaking,

Leo Laporte (01:10:34):
Well set up that world. I mean our room

Paul Thurrott (01:10:36):
Into a crashing halt.

Leo Laporte (01:10:37):
Right. Our room our conference room has just a big screen TV attached to a computer. It's a Mac mini but attached to a computer. Yeah. It's still, you still have to do the whole thing where you, you know, but you can, with apples, you can airplay. So it's not horrible. But we don't have a projector. It's not, so I would imagine that's how a lot of rooms are these days. Right. Pa the old PowerPoint projector thing is gone.

Rich Campbell (01:11:01):
No, you're exactly right. And we tried to do mirror cast and all these other options, but it was simpler to put a whole PC into the screen Yes. And have it That's right. Pre logged into the teams tenant and already knowing what thing was supposed to start. So that you just, you know, I always love these conference call meetings where, you know, instead of just calling the guy on the phone, now we're gonna do a conference call space first so that we're gonna have 20 minutes of aggravation before we start our meeting. Cause that'll help get dos off on the right foot.

Leo Laporte (01:11:26):
Yeah. And then you have the Polycom in the middle of the table and everybody's shouting.

Rich Campbell (01:11:29):
And Exactly. One, how do you have those kinds of collaboration meetings and not have them suck? Yeah. Like I think it's, it's a, it's a worthy goal.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:38):
Well I think it's important if you're gonna have them first you spend $20,000 on the screen. Absolutely. <laugh>. Then you spend the first 20 minutes of every meeting, now you're yelling at each other. Now you're

Leo Laporte (01:11:47):
Obligated. You don't have a choice.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:49):
Now you're collaborating. Now

Leo Laporte (01:11:50):
You're collaborating. I feel like I it seems like there would be other third party solution. I Cisco

Rich Campbell (01:11:58):
Must have, must

Paul Thurrott (01:11:59):
Have. Oh, there are

Rich Campbell (01:12:00):
Many. Yeah. Lenovo has one. No, but

Paul Thurrott (01:12:02):
This is

Rich Campbell (01:12:02):
Like, Lenovo makes a teams device. Right? Oh, interesting. Dedicated team device. Yeah, there you go.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:07):
But I, this to me, this is Microsoft going back to its roots, it's, it's odd for Microsoft to I to do the first party device thing when it's so good at partnering mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and these other companies are so good at making hardware Yeah. And can do it so much less expensively. But when

Rich Campbell (01:12:20):
You can't persuade

Paul Thurrott (01:12:21):
And do it, and then it is their business build,

Rich Campbell (01:12:22):
You can't talk 'em into doing it. So you build the first one, you make it really expensive and then have it sell anyway. And it's like, listen, there's lots of room underneath this for you to undercut us. Oh my God. Of course. Yeah. And that's the, that's the reference hardware mindset. I'll show you a proof of concept. I'll make it sufficiently successful so you folks can all make a less expensive one.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:43):
Yeah. So I mean this, I this is, this is the, to me is the way this well

Rich Campbell (01:12:49):
Now we're quoting the Mandalorian. Did you really say this is the way Okay.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:53):
<Laugh>, why I tried not to <laugh>. Okay. <laugh>. So in another bit of good news two weeks ago, you may recall Microsoft released Edge version one 11, and you'll recall it if you use Edge. Cuz there's a gigantic,

Rich Campbell (01:13:12):
The biggest

Paul Thurrott (01:13:12):
Icon Go looking being like iconic, the biggest up on the task bar up, up on the dress bar toolbar that you can't get rid of. So I had I think it was two weeks ago, I had the little tip, you know, this is how you can do it. You had to go into, you know, you had to go into it and it's, it's not easy. And, and the chances were they would upgrade Edge to version one 12 and it would come back, you'd have to do it again, blah, blah, blah, whatever.

Rich Campbell (01:13:36):
Did you notice they updated this? So if you don't just fly over the icon, that thing pops out. You actually have to hover over it for a moment and then it pops out. Right. But it pops out in every Edge browser that's open on your machine.

Paul Thurrott (01:13:46):
You know, they do this. I'm, you know, they do. It's not a mistake. It's not Oh, I, oh yeah, no, we'll fix that in the future. Yeah. Thanks. Well, they heard your complaints, actually let me correct that. They didn't hear your complaints, but I can assure you they heard their complaints from their cu their business customers who said, what the flying, whatever is this. And so Microsoft has reissued edge version one 11, and now there is UI to remove that button as is there policy so that if you're a business and you don't want your users to see this stupid bit of ui, you can get rid of it. And so way you

Leo Laporte (01:14:21):
Do that

Paul Thurrott (01:14:22):
To go

Leo Laporte (01:14:22):
With, oh, you have to use policy. I can't do it myself. I can't do it all by myself. You can do it. Oh,

Paul Thurrott (01:14:28):
You can, you

Leo Laporte (01:14:29):
Can, because I like the

Paul Thurrott (01:14:32):
Search setting

Leo Laporte (01:14:32):
For Discover Batman logo button

Paul Thurrott (01:14:34):
In there called,

Leo Laporte (01:14:34):
Is it, is it kind of like, it's kind of like the the bat signal kind of. It is, isn't it? I just, I'm just impressed with how big it is. How, what did they have to do to make that icon bigger than everything else? You're right.

Paul Thurrott (01:14:46):
I know.

Leo Laporte (01:14:47):
Like, they're literally custom code to allow it, to draw it larger than the toolbar

Paul Thurrott (01:14:52):
<Laugh>. Right. It's astonishing. The, yeah. The address bar is now like five pixels taller because that button had to squeeze in there.

Leo Laporte (01:14:58):
They write it into the I don't know, they write it into the memory map of the video card directly.

Paul Thurrott (01:15:03):
Yeah. It's horrible. All right. Anyway, you can get

Leo Laporte (01:15:07):
Rid of it. Now. I wanna take a little break and then we have still more to talk about mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, of course. Sure. We, because there will never ending. It's a never ending source of font of fascination. Microsoft 365, I think we can stick some AI in. And of course, Xbox and distillation will be the topic of the week. <Laugh>, now that you've got your mash and you <laugh>, you've got your alcohol, it's time, you got it to the wash, guys,

Paul Thurrott (01:15:36):
You can't jump into the middle. You gotta go back to the beginning.

Leo Laporte (01:15:40):
Start at the front, work your way back. Yep. our show today brought to you by a great company called Collide, K O L I d E. It's for companies that use Okta, but there's a problem with authentication. You know, Okta's great. The idea is your identity provider, let's only, let's known devices log into your apps, into your cloud, all that stuff. Right? That's good. Zero trust. What about though, if this known person logging in is logging in on an insecure device, that's a big problem, right? If you're an Okta user, collide can solve this problem. Get your entire fleet to a hundred percent compliance by patching this major hole in zero trust architecture, device compliance. Just because a device is known doesn't mean it's in a secure state. In fact, plenty of the devices in your fleet probably shouldn't be allowed in. They shouldn't be trusted.

Maybe they're running an out of date version of the operating system. Maybe they've got, I don't know, unencrypted credentials. They're they're keys lying in a, you know, a download folder somewhere. Oh, that would never happen. Right? Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, if a device isn't compliant or it's not running the Collide agent, it just can't get in. It cannot access the organization's SaaS, apps or other resources. It can't log into your company's cloud apps. Not until the problem's been fixed. It's, it's that simple. But here's another part you're gonna love, especially if you're in the IT department, you don't have to fix it. The user does. That's what Collide does so well, you know, without collide IT teams have really have a problem solving these compliance issues or to even just to stop and secure devices from logging in. With Collide, you can set and enforce compliance across your entire fleet, completely across platform, Mac, windows, and Linux.

It makes a device compliance part of the authentication process. So the user logs in with Okta, right? Collide says, whoa, hold on there, there's a compliance issue. You can't log in until you fix it. The end user, let's say the end user doesn't have an up-to-date to browser. Collide will say, Hey, here's what's wrong. Here's why you can't log in. And more importantly, here's how you fix it. So they can get to a hundred percent compliance and it doesn't overwhelm your IT department. They fix it. Plus there's a side effect of this. The end user now understands security better and becomes part of your IT team, part of your security team. Really, that's what you want. You don't want 'em to be the adversary. You want 'em to be a partner. This is security you can feel good about because Collide puts transparency and respect for users at the center of the product's. Method means fewer support tickets, less frustration, most importantly, a hundred percent fleet compliance, K o l i d e Learn more or book a demo We thank 'em so much for supporting Windows Weekly and use support Windows weekly if you use that address, that way they know you saw it here, not just, add the slash ww, please collide. It's just a good idea. On we go with Richard Campbell, run as radio rocks, paul throt and the field guide Windows 11 and Windows everywhere. Are they flying off the metaphorical shelves? Paul

Paul Thurrott (01:19:16):
<Laugh>, I guess. I mean, I

Leo Laporte (01:19:19):
Don't know. Just say yes. In what

Paul Thurrott (01:19:20):
Context? <Laugh>? Yes. Yes. Like pancakes. You

Leo Laporte (01:19:24):
Know, like, that's right. Everybody wants to like flying toasters into screensaver. Ooh. Do you mention Flying Toasters? It is about history, right? I,

Paul Thurrott (01:19:38):

Leo Laporte (01:19:39):
Alright, time to talk ai. What are we doing? We are two weeks into the chat. G P t four era, already 15,000 new startup from the singularity. The singularity is near. People are getting scared. And, and Richard, thank you for reassuring us all that. It's, it's not anything to fear. The only fear we have to Oh, there's plenty to fear. Oh, okay. But not

Rich Campbell (01:20:06):
The singularity. Not the singularity. The ceo. Okay. Yeah. Yes. There's plenty to fear don't, but don't fear this thing running off to do its

Paul Thurrott (01:20:12):
Own job's. Comedic purposes. Yeah.

So, yeah, I, there's, there's an interesting back, oh, I should, I, I should by the way, say part of my Microsoft is the Microsoft of All Now is internally they are communicating to their salespeople to go out to their customers and say, oh, you don't wanna use open ai, you wanna use our implementation of the open AI stuff because, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Like, you know, we, we don't know where, I mean, if they're vetting their sources, we don't know anything about them. I mean, who are these kinds? They're kind of just a little startup. I mean so there's a little evil bit there, but it would be interesting, you know, we talk about disruption and how, you know disruption in this industry is not gonna come from Google. Right? It's gonna come from some upstart in this notion that maybe Chad Sheep PT is that upstart. And

Leo Laporte (01:21:01):
Excepts really Microsoft, isn't it? I mean

Rich Campbell (01:21:04):
Yeah, but this be clear, Paul, that scenario you just painted,

Paul Thurrott (01:21:07):
Microsoft invested a lot in them.

Rich Campbell (01:21:09):
Yeah. But the scenario you're painting is an individual who is, whose bonus is tied to getting more people using the Azure Open AI service. And so he's gonna come up with a language he needs to, to get you to do that.

Paul Thurrott (01:21:23):
That's right. That's right. But what I'm talking about is open AI <laugh>. So open AI is announced this past week that they're gonna add support for plugins to chat G P T, right? Which it describes as extensions that allow it to integrate with third party services and access up to date information. Right. And I think this is the moment where open AI becomes like a platform. This is a very Microsoft thing to do to this. And I think it was, I think it was Rich Richard who pointed out maybe a week or two ago that, you know, this thing open ai, this thing <laugh> started out as sort of a, a non-commercial, you know, we're not gonna make money on this. Right? there's a pro version of the service Now. It's becoming a platform. Obviously they license it to third parties. I I I think we may be witnessing potentially, right? Cause we really don't know the emergence of this thing that could replace Google search, basically. And I think this is how you get there. So potentially, right? And we'll see what happens, what actually happens. But

Rich Campbell (01:22:33):
Certainly message. Have you played Google? Microsoft wanted to convey, have you

Leo Laporte (01:22:36):
Played with Google's response Bard yet? It's pretty pathetic.

Paul Thurrott (01:22:41):
Google is so unsophisticated that I have a Google Workspace account. I'm not, oh, you can't. I pay money than Gmail. You have

Rich Campbell (01:22:48):
To be a humble handed it. And you can't be, you, you can't use Bard in Canada. That's not a thing. That's a strange and foreign land. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:22:56):
Well, would you like me to to demonstrate it? Would

Paul Thurrott (01:22:59):
You Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:22:59):
Give me a barred

Paul Thurrott (01:23:00):
Query. Guess <laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:23:02):
And I'll I'll bar it up for you.

Paul Thurrott (01:23:05):
Ask Bard why it's not as sophisticated as open AI and what it's going to do to ensure it's not, you know,

Leo Laporte (01:23:11):
I I'm

Paul Thurrott (01:23:12):
Destroyed by external forces.

Leo Laporte (01:23:13):
You're creative and help their collaborator. I have limitations and won't always get it right, but your feedback will help me improve.

Paul Thurrott (01:23:20):
I love how suddenly technology is being honest <laugh>, I, you know, like, did Siri ever come out and say this? All Siri ever says to me is, I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. And I'm like, I'm not talking to you. I <laugh>. You know, the the smartest thing you could do is figure out that I'm not talking to you.

Leo Laporte (01:23:37):
Are you, are you smarter than Chad? G p T or Siri? Question mark.

Paul Thurrott (01:23:45):
It should say spit take. Everyone is smarter than Siri.

Leo Laporte (01:23:49):
<Laugh>. I'm not sure if I'm smarter than chat. G P T or Siri. All of us are trained at different data sets and have different strengths and weaknesses. I'm good at generating text, translating languages, writing different kinds of creative content and answering your questions. By the way, I love it. The bottom after it's sponsors a button that says Google it. <Laugh> <laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (01:24:08):

Leo Laporte (01:24:08):
Let me show you what I found on the web about that.

Paul Thurrott (01:24:12):
Wait, but hold on. Isn't the correct response to that question? Yes. Period. <Laugh>, like what gives

Leo Laporte (01:24:20):
You actually better than Yes.

Paul Thurrott (01:24:21):
This gives something I talked about.

Leo Laporte (01:24:24):
It can also give you alternate drafts

Paul Thurrott (01:24:25):
Information. Like I, I, I didn't ask you to discuss in 300 words or more whether you were smart <laugh>, like what I just asked you. A simple yes or no question.

Leo Laporte (01:24:36):
Give me another question then let's do something fun. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:24:39):
What could we ask him? Is Microsoft's acquisition of Activision Blizzard going to be approved by regulators?

Leo Laporte (01:24:47):
Oh, that's good.

Paul Thurrott (01:24:48):
If it doesn't just say yes to this. I know this thing's broken inside

Leo Laporte (01:24:52):
<Laugh>. I wish I were a faster typer going to be.

Paul Thurrott (01:25:04):
Maybe the better question is on what day

Leo Laporte (01:25:07):
Acquisition <laugh>. Oh, I can ask it on what day is a follow up? It is slow. Okay. The acquisition of ACT division, blizzard by Microsoft is still pending approval from regulators. The deal is being reviewed by antitrust authorities in the us, the eu, and other countries. There are concerns that the deal could give Microsoft too much power in the video game industry. Microsoft has said the deal will not harm competition and will be beneficial for gamers.

Paul Thurrott (01:25:33):
I like, I like sentences. Like there are concerns. It's like mistakes were made,

Leo Laporte (01:25:38):
Mistakes were made. There are concerns. It's still, Sony is concerned. It's still unclear whether the deal will be approved by regulators. By the way Japan now has said, yep, go ahead and do it. Yeah, it was rumored that EU would, I don't think they've announced that <laugh>. But I have a feeling when it comes, when we come in front of the administrative judge in August, they'll just go, yeah, yeah, it's fine. Go ahead. Thanks for delaying.

Paul Thurrott (01:26:00):
When August comes, it will already have happened, but we'll see. Okay. Well, I think

Rich Campbell (01:26:03):
Try one

Leo Laporte (01:26:04):
More. Try another one. All right. Yes, go ahead. 

Rich Campbell (01:26:07):
Multiply 587 by 326.

Leo Laporte (01:26:11):
587 by 386. Can it do math? Let's see. I

Paul Thurrott (01:26:20):
Hope this reboots your computer.

Leo Laporte (01:26:21):
<Laugh>. Is it 226,582?

Rich Campbell (01:26:25):
It does, yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:26:26):
Oh, let's give it a thumbs up. Yay.

Paul Thurrott (01:26:29):
Wait, you finally invented a computer that can do math <laugh>. What future are we living in? Wait

Leo Laporte (01:26:33):
A minute, lemme just press Google

Rich Campbell (01:26:35):
It that week. Try the Jack G p T, see how it

Leo Laporte (01:26:37):
Goes. Yeah, there's a lot of math errors. Yeah, let's just search a Google search and see what it gets.

Rich Campbell (01:26:43):
Well, I mean, this is where I think Google's got it going for cuz the back, the, the cuz the search engine does this just fine. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:26:49):

Paul Thurrott (01:26:50):
Yeah. Microsoft's technology is all based on the original pen and with the floating point bug

Rich Campbell (01:26:55):
<Laugh>. But see, now you get back to what was chat G p t actually doing, which was playing with language moths. Right? Right. They don't have a mechanism that says, oh, this is a math problem. Use the math engine.

Leo Laporte (01:27:06):
They just do now, because plug-ins the, the number of plug-ins is actually fascinating. Right.

Rich Campbell (01:27:11):
I haven't, there lies the point, right? Is that you also think about how a human mind works where you were taught mathematics by rote to, to essentially program you to know there's a math engine you use in your head to do math cuz it has a deterministic. My

Paul Thurrott (01:27:26):
Math engine is a little broken, but yes,

Rich Campbell (01:27:28):
Some math engines are better than others, but mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But the point being, when you're purely training on language, these deterministic answers aren't reliable. Oh.

Paul Thurrott (01:27:37):
I like, okay. That's interesting.

Rich Campbell (01:27:40):
Just, just a, every time we can get people to stop anthropomorphizing a piece of software and remind them where the limits are.

Paul Thurrott (01:27:49):
Well, let's start with

Rich Campbell (01:27:51):
A tool.

Paul Thurrott (01:27:51):
It's useful. So Yeah. We get ways to go. People have names for the card.

Leo Laporte (01:27:56):
This is a good answer. I asked it. Who said mistakes were made? The phrase mistakes were made as often used in politics and business to acknowledge as something went wrong without taking responsibility for it.

Paul Thurrott (01:28:06):
Honest to God,

Leo Laporte (01:28:07):
It has been used by politicians such as US Grant. Richard did you know US Grant used it. President Lincoln mistakes were made.

Paul Thurrott (01:28:15):
What was your que what was your question? What was your question?

Leo Laporte (01:28:17):
Who said mistakes were made?

Paul Thurrott (01:28:19):
Okay. I didn't ask what the phrase meant. And, and well,

Leo Laporte (01:28:21):
No, but I'm getting quotes. You Grant said it. Nixon said it. Bill

Paul Thurrott (01:28:24):
Clinton in my lives, who it can't answer questions clearly. And this is a good example of that kind of question. You, you've asked it a specific question and it started off on a wide ranging discussion about what? I didn't ask you what it means. You freaking idiot. <Laugh>. I presumably I know what it means. <Laugh>. I asked you who said it. Oh, we finally got the rant. No, I mean that's like, that's,

Rich Campbell (01:28:44):
But I like to

Paul Thurrott (01:28:45):
Be That's the irritating application of technology.

Rich Campbell (01:28:47):
I do, I do appreciate that. It did like a 200 year span there from Ulysses s grants to Martin Winter corn, which is, that's Dieselgate, right? Like, that's a good span. Like,

Paul Thurrott (01:28:57):
Listen, I'm not asking, I I'm not looking, it's not open mic night on Here. I I wanna know the answer to a question. I, it's, well, you might prefer to me that it's providing additional information.

Leo Laporte (01:29:08):
You might prefer draft two, which says the phrase mistakes were made is often attributed to us. President Ulysses esque grander used it in December 5th, 9, 18 76 in his report to Congress.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:19):
No, actually, I'm sorry. No, I didn't ask you who didn't say it. I could you, could you just tell me who said it? Grant

Leo Laporte (01:29:27):

Paul Thurrott (01:29:27):
S Is there, is there a version in there where it says who said it? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:29:30):
Ulysses S Grant. Oh. Often attributed. Often

Paul Thurrott (01:29:33):
Attributed. I thought you said he did

Leo Laporte (01:29:35):
Not say it. No, no, no. It says he did. He says, well, it's attributed to him. He did.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:38):
Okay. Oh, good. Okay. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:29:41):
So I, you know, maybe you like

Paul Thurrott (01:29:43):
The, I get mad at people when they You're

Leo Laporte (01:29:45):
Angry question. Just very angry. Mm-Hmm. Let me try that.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:48):
It's like, see what it says here. Are you open yet? It's like, well, we usually open at nine 30. But to listen, it was a yes or no question. Honey, are you, are you open <laugh>? Just this Yes or no? Just <laugh>. You know, let me just ask it. I just wanna get to the point

Leo Laporte (01:30:01):
Why is Paul Sorat so angry? <Laugh> <laugh>. I do not have enough information about that person to help with your request. <Laugh> <laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (01:30:12):
I have this synaps in my brain that's a little too wide. And sometimes the idea is just go right over the edge. The spark

Leo Laporte (01:30:19):

Paul Thurrott (01:30:21):

Leo Laporte (01:30:22):
I think I mean, given the choice I would use chat G b D four. But Google I think is being cautious. They're trying to keep Bard from getting in the same,

Paul Thurrott (01:30:34):
I gotta trouble, you know what though? Does cautious? Is cautious gonna win this cautious maybe the wrong play right now? Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:30:41):

Rich Campbell (01:30:41):
No, no. I, I'm gonna disagree with you on that, Paul, because I think Okay. Microsoft's being the reckless one and so you're really gonna try and out reckless them or should you dial it back a bit? Like I said, just

Paul Thurrott (01:30:51):
That trough

Rich Campbell (01:30:51):
Of disillusionment is out there. It's not that far away.

Paul Thurrott (01:30:55):
He's gonna go into First one can win in a game of chicken <laugh>. Yes. Just saying. I It's not the cautious one.

Rich Campbell (01:31:01):
None can win in a game of chicken too.

Paul Thurrott (01:31:03):
<Laugh>. That's right. <Laugh>. That's true. Oh boy. Yeah. It's what a weird world we we are in right now.

Leo Laporte (01:31:12):
Let's try, describe the game of chicken.

Paul Thurrott (01:31:18):
This is a good one. <Laugh>. Wow. See if it gives you describe as a rabbit hole of sorts.

Leo Laporte (01:31:25):
<Laugh>. Yeah. Yes. Sorry. We can, we can get out of the rat hole and continue on. In the chicken game, players drive drive toward each other on a collision. Course one must swerve or both may die in the crash. But if one driver swerves and the other does not, the one who swerved will be called a chicken, meaning a coward. But look at this, this is, see and I like this, this game is a model of conflict for two players in game theory. The principle of the game is while the odd ideal outcome is for one player to yield the individuals try to avoid it out of pride for not wanting to

Paul Thurrott (01:31:56):
Look like war games.

Leo Laporte (01:31:58):
Very upset. Yeah. Shall play a game. It actually cites it does do a sight. Wikipedia. Do

Rich Campbell (01:32:03):
You like a good sighting?

Paul Thurrott (01:32:04):
Come on.

Leo Laporte (01:32:05):
I like the sights.

Paul Thurrott (01:32:06):
You know, my son and I invi invented a, a game called Dick Punch, which has similar rules. <Laugh>, it's <laugh>. There's no winner. Do you have

Leo Laporte (01:32:13):
A, a neighbor named Dick Winner?

Rich Campbell (01:32:15):
Is that it? No. Winners

Paul Thurrott (01:32:17):
<Laugh>. No one wins. That's all I'm saying. <Laugh>. It doesn't last very long. The only way

Leo Laporte (01:32:25):
To win is not to play

Paul Thurrott (01:32:28):
<Laugh>. Is to not play. Exactly.

Leo Laporte (01:32:31):
Ah, well that

Rich Campbell (01:32:32):
Was our, my favorite, my favorite story of war games is it, after Reagan watched it and he saw the Noad Center in the, in the tv, in the movie, he asked to go see the actual Nora Center and they didn't have one. It had been invented for the movie, and so he funded them making,

Paul Thurrott (01:32:50):
Now we have one.

Leo Laporte (01:32:51):
Oh, no.

Paul Thurrott (01:32:52):
Well now, but now it tracks Santa Claus every year. So I'm, you know, that was probably a good allocation of federal

Rich Campbell (01:32:58):
Funds. And, and every knock looks like norad, like it's all propagated Oh God. From a 1980 movie. Oh

Leo Laporte (01:33:04):
My God. That's a wild story. It's great. Oh, mg

Rich Campbell (01:33:09):
And it might might even be true. Maybe.

Paul Thurrott (01:33:16):
I love it.

Leo Laporte (01:33:18):
Co security know, I've seen some say, I think Ben Thompson said Atte that the real first really good use of of AI was co-pilot. Microsoft's GitHub feature

Rich Campbell (01:33:31):

Paul Thurrott (01:33:31):
Co-Pilot. The GitHub one. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:33:32):
Which is getting better and better. And now of course big announcement from competitor Relet that they're gonna use Google Compute platform and and try to do something similar. They have a they have a copilot like feature Okay. Called oh I can't remember. Some

Rich Campbell (01:33:50):
Ghost writer. Ghost

Leo Laporte (01:33:51):
Writer. Thank you. So I thought that was interesting. I mean is that the really the best use for these kinds of things?

Paul Thurrott (01:34:00):
The best use? I mean, I, I, I it's a use. I mean, I, I think

Leo Laporte (01:34:06):
Coders are increasing Microsoft coming around on it, I think. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:34:10):

Rich Campbell (01:34:11):
Ma'am. I would, I would disagree with that. It's like you normally, before you write a chunk of code, either Google it or stack overflow it and now you're, you are co piling it. It, cuz it's probably the same thing. At least you

Leo Laporte (01:34:22):
Can check correctness

Rich Campbell (01:34:23):
From blank screen syndrome.

Leo Laporte (01:34:25):
Yeah. And you can check correctness. You can say what does this sentence do and things like that.

Rich Campbell (01:34:30):
Yeah. The compiler checks correctness.

Paul Thurrott (01:34:34):
This is, this is honestly, I think the point of ai, right? We have the, the internet gave us all the information in the world, but we need AI to make sense of it. Right? geez, I don't know, two, three years ago when I did the Windows Forms version of my net padd application, I had to figure out how to print. There's not a lot of good information about printing from Windows forms out there, you know, and what I eventually did was I bought a 2003 book only on paper. It's never, was never digitized and made on Kindle or whatever by Charles bets salt about Windows forms. And he did a thing on printing, which still works great. You know, if I could find something like that with ai wonderful

Rich Campbell (01:35:16):
Definitive sources. Yep. And, and that's something that stuff's great. Github. GitHub co-pilot doesn't worry about things like, is the secure code, like that's not a thing. It's is it close to what you described and

Paul Thurrott (01:35:30):
It's, it's, it's like the thing we just did answer the question. I didn't say write secure code that <laugh>. Well is this

Rich Campbell (01:35:38):
I don't know

Paul Thurrott (01:35:39):

Leo Laporte (01:35:40):
I'll, I don't know it well enough, but is this accurate? I asked Barr to write me a Python program, the prints from Windows Forms and it wrote this.

Paul Thurrott (01:35:48):

Leo Laporte (01:35:48):
That's funny. I don't know what it

Paul Thurrott (01:35:50):
Is. A Python program that writes a Windows forms. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:35:53):
Yeah. To run this program, you'll need to create a new Windows Forms application. Visual

Paul Thurrott (01:35:56):
Studios like 800 lines long. So <laugh>,

Rich Campbell (01:35:59):
I dunno. But yeah. What flavor of Python would this be? It might, might be Iron Python. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:04):
The, the mythical <laugh>.

Rich Campbell (01:36:07):
Yeah. You're not wrong. Like there was a version of Iron Python. Jim Huginn supported it back in the day. Yeah. Be sure that ran against the c r cuz that's what you need. Right? Regular Python doesn't do that. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:18):
To be a Right.

Rich Campbell (01:36:19):
If you're gonna have access to WinForms

Paul Thurrott (01:36:22):
Yep. You don't see a lot of WinForms that's not BB or C Sharp. Yeah. Let's put it that way.

Leo Laporte (01:36:28):
There's some of

Paul Thurrott (01:36:29):
A script, but I I maybe the more important thing that came out of this GitHub co-pilot is Microsoft got themselves a good brand. Yeah. Right. Co-Pilot is a great brand, a great name for AI-based functionality of whatever kind. Like we're gonna see co-pilot in Windows co-pilot in office. Yep. Co-pilot gonna

Rich Campbell (01:36:51):
Be, the implication is you're still in charge.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:54):
Yeah. As opposed to at Tesla Autopilot. Right. That's a AI co-pilot baby. Yeah. He was carrying you the whole way

Rich Campbell (01:37:03):

Paul Thurrott (01:37:03):
That was blasphemous. Anyway, the point is <laugh> now they've applied it to security. I'm not sure this is a great use of ai right, right now, I guess. But they've released, Microsoft has released something called Security Co-pilot, which will leverage ai to help cybersecurity professionals who I guess will quarry it about their security environment and better understand potential threats. The biggest threat of course being ai. Yeah. That's

Rich Campbell (01:37:33):
I would argue that most cyber security professionals are part-time. And what this tool really does that allow those part-timers to quickly go through all of the current info mm-hmm. <Affirmative> describe the problem space of Yeah. Go let it go through the security bullets and so forth. Mm-Hmm. It's again, kind of a fancy search engine, but also tied in with the typical workflows of doing a threat assessment.

Leo Laporte (01:37:56):
I wonder how long before Chat g PTs doing red teaming? Yeah. It doesn't have an interface to the outside world by the way. That's what, no, that's what saves

Paul Thurrott (01:38:05):
Us. Hey, chat. G P T just announced a new podcast about Windows.

Leo Laporte (01:38:09):
<Laugh> <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:38:13):
Sorry guys.

Leo Laporte (01:38:14):

Rich Campbell (01:38:16):
But yeah, obviously you want to give it access to the web and then put it in a red team role cuz what's a better idea than having it practice hacking?

Leo Laporte (01:38:24):
Sure. <laugh>. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:38:26):
All, all is Well.

Leo Laporte (01:38:27):
Make me some paper clips while you're at it.

Rich Campbell (01:38:30):
<Laugh> I'll give you one factory, but you can use it to make

Paul Thurrott (01:38:36):
A factory. It's hard not to continually reference the Terminator movies. Yeah. When we talk about this stuff.

Rich Campbell (01:38:42):
No, they're, they're right there. But again, back to art. When you say artificial intelligence, you think science fiction.

Leo Laporte (01:38:49):
Yeah, that's, I think that's what colors a lot of our reception for this Skynet and all that is we're really science fiction. Yeah. We're, we, we have this preconceived notion of what it is. All right. Enough of that. Let's get, let's get to something really matters in life. Let's get to the Xbox segment. <Laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:09):

Leo Laporte (01:39:11):
All yours, Paul.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:12):
So this is on my, I told you. So Torah 2023. I just wanna mention that I've always kind of said the same thing about Microsoft's ac acquisition of Activision Blizzard, which is that there's no rational excuse not to approve this thing. And we're starting to see it finally kind of happening. So last week, I think it was Florian Mueller who observed at Phos patents that the language around these discussions has turned from what do we have to do to stop this? To, okay, what's the exact language we're we're gonna use to accept this? The uk the UK C D M A, which was one of the big three that opposed this now says there were wrong. That there, there will be no harm to the video game industry of Microsoft acquires this company. And they will likely be approving it.

Leo Laporte (01:39:58):
Didn't they say they might investigate Sony as well? Like, oh, and by the

Paul Thurrott (01:40:03):
Way, thank

Leo Laporte (01:40:03):
You. Now we're gonna go after Sony. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (01:40:07):
Yeah. Good <laugh>. Because that's what needs to happen here. Japan, their FTC approved it without any conditions whatsoever. Just remind everyone. Japan, Sony's home country. Right? So interesting. And then Activision Activision, c e o who I think we can all agree is one of the greatest people in the world. And just a super nice guy,

Leo Laporte (01:40:29):
Little Bobby Codick

Paul Thurrott (01:40:31):
<Laugh>, Bobby Codick. But he did come out and say publicly something which we all you know it is obvious, but, but he's saying it publicly, which I think is interesting, which is that Sony's behavior is disappointing. These guys have been partners for 30 years. We're not gonna allow this to affect our long-term relationship, but the notion which Sony, you know, Sony as they get more and more desperate and is trying to come up with reasons why this shouldn't happen, you know, ed said recently, well what if Microsoft deliberately makes the version of Call of Duty worse on PlayStation? Right. Because they'll introduce bugs and they'll, you know, they'll make people go to Xbox and it's like, guys, Microsoft doesn't really actually make money if you buy an Xbox. You know, they make a lot of money if you buy their software.

 They don't care where that is. That's the whole Satcha Adela thing. Meet people where they are. Right. it doesn't make sense for Microsoft to take Call of Duty off of PlayStation. It also doesn't make sense for Microsoft purposefully or not to make Call of Duty not work as well on PlayStation to, for it to be buggy, like deliberately buggy is insane. So it's interesting that this guy who, again, not, not a great guy by any stretch of the imagination, but and will be gone as soon as his acquisition is finalized, had to come out and say basically like, this is, like, we don't understand what they're doing. We don't agree with it. They're wrong. And when this is over call, you know, call of Duty will just keep working on PlayStation like it always has. So don't worry about it.

Rich Campbell (01:41:59):
You, there's also an era of we're still trying to, we still want Sony as a partner. Like no hard feelings. Yeah, of course. Because you're losing

Paul Thurrott (01:42:08):
Yeah, no hard feelings, although there are hard feelings. I <laugh>, let's, let's be clear. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> sometime in the past year, I think it was last year, Microsoft released something called the Elite Series two Core Controller. This is a less expensive version of their expensive controller. With all the removable bits we can replace the paddles and all that stuff. It doesn't have as re as many removable bits, but one of the things that's interesting about it, one of the many things is that this one has been customizable, right? So I think you can go into their Xbox controller customization service and use, you know, create a series two core controller if you want to. But it's also allowed Microsoft to come out with many more versions of this version of the controller color versions, right? So, where the original elite controller was just black, this one, you know, immediately a black and white.

Now they have all these colored versions, so they just announced red and blue versions, which I normally, it's like, who cares red and blue? But if you're a long-term Xbox, Xbox person, you know, that red versus blue is kind of a big thing. This is 20 years ago. This was a series of kind of viral videos that Microsoft did based around the Halo games. So I have to think, I have to hope, I have to believe cuz I'm an Xbox guy, that that is not coincidental. And that if you're an X versus, or a red versus blue kind of a guy, you will get a kick out of that and enjoy it. Also I think the

Rich Campbell (01:43:29):
Original Red versus

Paul Thurrott (01:43:29):

Rich Campbell (01:43:30):
I think the original verse is Blue is actually like a Rooster Teeth like YouTube series that Microsoft then hijacked for good pr.

Paul Thurrott (01:43:37):
Yeah. But they kind of co-opted. Yeah, they did. Well I didn't, this was like the original, like that was Rooster Teeth. Yeah. That Microsoft Co-opted it. Yeah, they were, they were very comedic. Yeah,

Rich Campbell (01:43:46):
They, they, they did. They they used it for a few promotions and like, I think at one point

Paul Thurrott (01:43:50):
Scott was Blue was the blue. Oh man. Of course he was, it was, it was funny in the cringe way. It was Blue goo. Yeah. Yeah. Blue go probably Rooster Teeth was just happy. They weren't red versus blue. So if you Google Red versus Blue and Halo, what you'll, one of the questions is, is Halo cannon to red versus blue? And the joke is that red versus blue is Cannon and the rest of the Halo universe is just a spinoff <laugh>. That makes, that makes perfect sense. Yes, this is, I think that's true. Yes. Pretty good. But you can go to Halo Waypoint that they discussed this. Like, it's, it's a, like what is this thing? And it's like, okay, here's the history of it. You know, it's, anyway, there are red and blue controllers, that's all I'm saying. Since the beginning of Xbox Game passed and now there, of course there are three versions of it.

 Microsoft has offered a $1 for the first month kind of intro offer for new customers. They're doing away with that. And why would that be? I'm guessing that people are just starting up free Microsoft accounts and doing a $1 trial. And what they've discovered is that there were entire i p s IP ranges that are just doing this. And that's my guess. But anyway, you can no longer do that. So this is why we can't have nice things. Yeah. I'm kind of surprised that even thought it was a good idea in the first place, but I've taken advantage of it. Yeah. More times than I should. More than once. But yeah, it's a, well, you know, I, I had to write the chapter of the book where I dealt with this. I'm like, I'm not gonna pay 10 bucks or 15 bucks for this, but there's a $1.

Okay. Anyway, <laugh>, I'm not, I didn't do anything wrong. Why am I on trial here? The point is they're going, okay, <laugh> <laugh>, if you've been kind of following along with the, the greener new Microsoft, you know, they have that little icon. Lemme go look at it in windows Update that says Windows Update is committed to helping reduce carbon emissions. <Laugh>, all of the hot air is coming out of our Pier department now, <laugh> they've been doing how can, how can they do similar, obviously what they Xbox consoles. Oh, Leo, don't make me look <laugh> <laugh>. It's just the way they deliver up. It's just so, it's so pointless. Okay. there's a new power management mode to the Xbox consoles that, you know, we'll, you know, single-handedly save the environment. I always turn all that stuff off. Cause it just slows everything down.

I don't Yep. Yeah, cuz you want it to turn on in time, you mean? Yeah, sure. No, I, I know, I know. I don't get it. But here's an idea. If you are gonna make a tank, don't worry about it's fuel efficiency. <Laugh>, like, this is the point of this thing. It's supposed to be a beast. Anyway they just released an X Xbox developer sustainability toolkit, which among other things helps developers to take power consumption into account in their DA game development process. The idea here is that, you know, we're playing games over the internet and perhaps they can do things that will decrease energy usage because, dear God, I don't even what we're talking about anymore, but this is what we're doing. So there you go. You ever drive behind a someone in a Prius who is just kind of kicking ass and driving really fast? No, because that's what those people do. <Laugh>. I can't and I, I don't know, I I feel like Xbox users are not interested in, I don't know, I don't get it, but

Rich Campbell (01:47:06):
Whatever. I don't, I raced the Prius in Forza all the time. It's hilarious.

Paul Thurrott (01:47:11):
<Laugh> <laugh>, right? I feel like do, do Prius's actually come with a student Briber bumper sticker? That's permanence. Is that like a every Prius, is that just like a

Rich Campbell (01:47:21):
It's that, or taxis

Paul Thurrott (01:47:22):
Part of the

Rich Campbell (01:47:23):
Right or Uber? Like that's

Paul Thurrott (01:47:25):
Right's. What you get? I don't know. Yeah. Geez Louise guys. I mean, if I wanted an Nintendo, I'd get a nten. Anyway, sorry. So and then finally not a huge, huge deal, but Steam announced that they will drop support for Windows seven and eight point x sometime in 2024. So over a year, it's probably gonna be, I think it's July 20, 24 or later. So that would be the earliest date. I, nope, I'm sorry I'm wrong. It's January, not July, January 1st, 2024. Those versions of Windows are unsupported, right? As of this past January. So I guess they're giving them an additional year, although I think there was talk of, might be longer than a year, but it'll be at least a year. So could be next January and they actually, is there data or people say it's

Rich Campbell (01:48:13):
Down to, it's like the, just a couple of percentage points left.

Paul Thurrott (01:48:16):
Yeah, that's what I was looking for. Yeah. 1.52% are still using Windows. There you go. That's actually kind of interesting. And 0.3 port percent are using windows eight one. 

Rich Campbell (01:48:26):
Why does Steam, you're

Paul Thurrott (01:48:28):
Running the back of my brain.

Rich Campbell (01:48:29):
Yeah, I mean, why does Steam care? They, they, why does Steam Care that they're running? What, what operating system are you running? Well, cuz

Leo Laporte (01:48:34):
Not all games work on all operating systems. So I can only, you know, I can't play call of Duty

Paul Thurrott (01:48:41):
On that. The relentless march of progress. Well, the, for all of the work done to make Windows more efficient in recent years, I do sort of in the back of my brain, wonder if you brought up a basic window seven installation, put one game on that system, would that thing run, you know, faster? Whatever faster means, right? And I bet would <laugh>

Rich Campbell (01:49:00):
Actually, yeah. I wonder, I wonder if Steam is requiring

Paul Thurrott (01:49:05):

Rich Campbell (01:49:05):
And Yeah. They, so they require support to be, to be profiled high in the Yeah, there's

Paul Thurrott (01:49:09):
Other stuff going. It's not just the cigarette. It's

Rich Campbell (01:49:11):
Not. So this is the game developers pressing on steam saying lift that requirement cuz it makes easier for us to make the game.

Paul Thurrott (01:49:18):
Yeah. But if you're playing a, a modern game, I, you want the latest Direct X, you want the latest Yeah. You know, video card that would only be supported on, you know, modern Windows versions, et cetera, et

Rich Campbell (01:49:27):
Cetera. Yeah. So next Steam announces three 90 or better, right? Like <laugh>, if you haven't dropped a ground on a video

Paul Thurrott (01:49:33):
Target, you wanna save energy, I'll tell you get an Xbox baby.

Rich Campbell (01:49:38):
You certainly can turn off your

Paul Thurrott (01:49:39):
Furnace. It's, it's like a carbon offset every time you turn it on. It's amazing. <Laugh>, I believe it squirts a little bit of fresh air into the room too. It's nice. <Laugh>. I dunno what the hell we're talking about. What is this? I don't know what happened to this show. I'm trying, I'm trying to aliens here. I'm trying to, I dunno. I'm gonna save the earth a different way. <Laugh>. Let's listen something <laugh>. I

Leo Laporte (01:50:02):
Want an X bucks made outta wood. Okay. Renewable wood bamboo.

Paul Thurrott (01:50:08):
Maybe I, I want my lights to dim when I turn this thing on.

Leo Laporte (01:50:11):
Not Well, they do actually. But that's another story for another day. Let us take a break back in the book coming up, which means a tip of the week, an half of the week, and a brown liquor of the week. Plus, I think we have time for the story of distilling <laugh>. But

Paul Thurrott (01:50:28):
First <laugh>. Yes. Right? Distilling part one of seven <laugh>. No, I'm, it was the best of time. I'm just teasing. <Laugh>. It was the distilling

Leo Laporte (01:50:41):
Of times, the distilling of times. It's time for a word from our sponsor. The studio sponsored. That's a big deal. The ACI learning folks, if we've got signage all over we are thrilled to have them as a, as a kind of flagship sponsor of our network. And you might say, well, who are ACI learning when they're at home? Well, I think you know the name it Pro, they've been talking about IT Pro for, well, since they started I think it's 10 years ago now. IT PRO is now part of ACI learning together. They're, they're expanding their production capabilities. They're bringing you the, the content you need. And you can learn it any way you want. Remote, hybrid, on-prem. You, they actually have hubs where you can go with a teacher, instructor and other students. Whatever works for you. Whether you want individual training for yourself or you wanna train your whole team.

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They've got that great dashboard that lets you track everything. Manage seats, assign and unassigned team members access monthly usage reports. So can see if you know, if you're getting your money's worth. You, you've got metrics like logins, viewing time tracks completed. You can manage subsets of users. You can say, you three, take this course. You should be looking at this episode of this course. That kind of thing. Completely customize the assignments, monitor the progress reporting on the usage of the platform. You get full access to all this advanced reporting, including very visual reports, which are helpful in justifying the spend to the higher ups to the board. You know, you can say, look what we're doing and to your, and you know what to your partners too, right? Respected companies and government agencies around the globe turn to IT Pro and ACI learning year after year to help them maintain their competitive edge supporting organizations across audit IT and cybersecurity readiness.

ACI Learning keeps you and your team at the top of their game from entry level training to putting people on the moon. ACI Learning has you covered. Maintain your company's competitive edge with ACI Learning by visiting the website. Go dot aci Go do ACI And for those of you looking to start today with a standard or premium individual IT pro membership, use the offer code TWIT three zero TWIT 30, and you'll get 30% off. Sh do it Don't Secret twit. Well, it's not a secret every, tell everybody twit 30 for 30% off visit, go dot aci We're big fans who always have been of it pro go dot aci The offer code is TWIT 30. Now let's go to the back of the book. What are you laughing at? It dis discarded. Just <laugh>. Just is it Nicholas Cage? Is that what I'm seeing? Nicholas Cage. Oh, it's Cage with, it's after you squirt a little fresh air into the room from here. Xbox <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:55:47):

Leo Laporte (01:55:48):
Nicholas is really enjoying

Paul Thurrott (01:55:49):
It. Walking into the, the exhaust part of the Xbox. Enjoying

Leo Laporte (01:55:52):
Me right there. <Laugh>. Yeah, our accordions really have a lot of fun. <Laugh> that is the the Discord chat room that is for members of Club TWiT <laugh> and apparently fans of Nicholas Cage on Air <laugh> and his hair. If you are not yet a member of Club Twi, I do wanna encourage you to, to join because that's seven bucks a month. Twit Club members give us, really helps us put new shows on the air. Like Paul's hands on windows. We got hands on Macintosh with Micah. We've got a Linux show. We've got all sorts of stuff that the club members pay for. And that, and that really is important to us cuz we always want to add new stuff. We just brought Scott Wilkinson back with Home Theater Geeks thanks to the Club. It's a club only right now.

Maybe someday, like this week in space, it'll grow up to be a a full fledged podcast. There's also corporate memberships. If you're not yet a member of Club Twit and you'd like to support what you do, if you enjoy what we do, I think seven bucks a month, it's a, it's a fair price for what you get. You get access to the Discord, which is full of great stuff. You get that special TWiT plus free feed. Oh, I didn't even mention. You can add free versions of all the shows. You won't even hear this. I'll never have to beg you again. Go to twit tv slash club twit and thanks in advance. All right, Paul, it's all you baby tip of the week time.

Paul Thurrott (01:57:25):
So we just, I just mentioned windows seven and eight x support on Steam. Firefox just made this, I think I was confusing Mozilla and, and Valve, I guess. Firefox dis announced that they will support Windows seven and eight X until at least Q3 2024.

Leo Laporte (01:57:43):
Good for

Paul Thurrott (01:57:43):
Them. Even

Leo Laporte (01:57:44):
Though Microsoft is

Paul Thurrott (01:57:45):
Not, yes, you can use Firefox, right? Better idea. I don't know. Maybe upgrade your operating system. <Laugh> Firefox is fine. I, I think of all kinds of good reasons to use it. 

Leo Laporte (01:57:57):
Got a level, little gecko, but honestly, I think that's one of the main things that pushes people to upgrading their operating system is that the browsers stop the browser.

Paul Thurrott (01:58:06):

Leo Laporte (01:58:06):
Yeah. And once the browser stops working, you know, it's a lot you can't do.

Paul Thurrott (01:58:09):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I don't remember off the top of my head what Google's deal with Chromos, but I believe it's already not supported or will soon not be supported, something like that. So yeah. Anyway, but if you are stuck on it for whatever reason, I, you know, stopping, you know, putting something between you and the most obvious vector for getting mal wearing a computer isn't such a horrible idea. A better idea is, like I said, upgrading. Our friend Michael Nehouse who I know Rich, I think I just listened to an episode just

Rich Campbell (01:58:41):
Did a show with him. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:58:42):
Run as radio with Michael mm-hmm. <Affirmative> Yeah. Has released an alternative to Microsoft's media creation tool. Right? So today there are two versions of the tool. One for Windows 11, one for Windows 10. And they don't, they only support X 86 or X 64 depending on the version. So he has created a single tool that does both versions of the OS and supports all versions of those versions of the oss. Meaning it also supports ARM 64. There's a whole thing going on. You know, people are kind of into this stuff. Like if you want to, if you said for example, like, Hey, I need to get an ISO to install Windows 11 on Arm or whatever, well that's not available publicly. How do I do that? There are places you can download those things out on the web. There are these things called E S D, which are kind of like highly compressed versions of web files, which is what we use to create these things on the backend that like enterprises use to customize a Windows install, for example.

 And E S D is a, is not easy to customize cuz it's so compressed, but it's the type of thing you can ship over the internet a little bit more easily. And Microsoft makes those available for all of these systems. So I guess he's gathered together all this stuff and made a tool. I will say I installed this well, you just run it really, you just download it and run it. It was flagged as a kind, some kind of mall whereby smart screen or whatever in Windows. But it's from Michael, so we know it's okay <laugh>. So if you see that and you're worried about it, just know that there's nothing malicious going on here. He's a good guy.

Rich Campbell (02:00:11):
Yeah. He's one of the best without a doubt. And

Paul Thurrott (02:00:13):
Yeah, this is the thing Microsoft should have made.

Rich Campbell (02:00:16):
And does this still <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (02:00:18):
Inmate? Yes. They do have a rich history. This,

Leo Laporte (02:00:20):
This better than rufuss or which you've been recommending. It's,

Paul Thurrott (02:00:23):
Well, actually, so you still have to use rufuss combined. What this will do is get you the image file, the is the ISR you need. So in this case, you would still, yeah, you would then use Rufuss to create the actual bu if you need a Bootable usb, you would still use rufuss. Right. Got it.

Leo Laporte (02:00:40):
Got it.

Paul Thurrott (02:00:41):
But this, like I said, this is particularly interesting because you can get your arm 64 iso see for Windows 10 R Windows 11, yes. Multiple languages. Right. Nice. So yeah. Very, very nice.

Leo Laporte (02:00:55):

Rich Campbell (02:00:56):
Good stuff.

Paul Thurrott (02:00:57):
This is a good idea. It's a really good idea.

Leo Laporte (02:01:00):
You know what else is a good idea? Run as radio mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And I'm wondering, Mr. Richard Campbell,

Paul Thurrott (02:01:07):
We're gonna go get some whiskey. Mm-Hmm.

Rich Campbell (02:01:08):
<Affirmative>, <laugh>, get ready. <Laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (02:01:12):
I, I will drink it responsibly. I'm not an idiot.

Leo Laporte (02:01:16):
Wh when does multi-cloud make sense, Richard? When, when,

Rich Campbell (02:01:19):
Well, this is a conversation I had with Fu Schmidt a little while ago. Published today actually. And we, we mostly defined some terms. First. The, the point being, and this is a Gartner term, most enterprises are poly cloud. That is, they use more than one cloud provider. So if you're on Salesforce plus you use Azure, maybe one department's got some stuff. Aws like, that's sort of reality for most big organizations. So many organizations are poly cloud. And so we separated that from multi-cloud being, I have a given workload, I wanna run on more than one cloud typically for a redundancy sake that I believe I need to be more reliable than any given cloud provider. And those are, I mean, they're, I'm not saying they don't happen, they're pretty rare cases. And the sacrifices you need to make to actually build software that will operate between clouds effectively are substantial, you know, certain technologies and Kubernetes is certainly one of them are available both on-prem and on all the clouds.

And so there is the ability to shift workloads there. Well, but you have to use the very generic version of those features. You don't want to get into cloud specific stacks because that's not gonna be portable to the other cloud options. Now that, that's where that conversation went, was really digging into what's our way to look across clouds to try and build stuff that would run up between them. Azure ARC came up because it is a tool that is larger than any given cloud. It certainly works well with Azure, but it also works on-prem and in the other cloud providers. So that is an approach to, to helping to manage that problem. But I really wanted to get in on this. Hey, you know, often you have senior leadership that says, well, clouds go down, like, how are we gonna stay up no matter what? And my usual reaction to that was to draw it on a whiteboard, just how much that's going to cost. And then suddenly that little a, that, that expense for that rare event, you know, oh, ends the conversation. And, but if you wanna do it, it's doable. It's just hard and I think rarely needed.

Leo Laporte (02:03:23):
What does multi-cloud, when does multi-cloud make sense with Fu Schmidt? Run as Radio 8 73.

Rich Campbell (02:03:31):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> cool.

Leo Laporte (02:03:33):
Run as Yeah. And now we've been waiting for your explanation part seven. How licky

Rich Campbell (02:03:44):
There's not that many parts though. Like a,

Leo Laporte (02:03:46):
Like, I'm like a puppy

Rich Campbell (02:03:47):
Waiting for something to fall off the table. <Laugh>. I mean, I, honest to goodness I spend more time writing this <laugh>. I mean, we, we go all the way back to, we appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, we talked about growing barley and then malting the barley and then milling the barley, then making the mash, which was, you know, now we, we start, we extract the sugars from the, our malted barley ferment it. Now the, the incomes the alcohol part of the equation. And that gives us our wart, which we've now shipped over into our wash backs. And we have a 7%, you know, you can filter it and make it, make pot beer from it. I don't recommend it. You know, hops helps. But you're now ready to start to distill. And distilling is an ancient craft. We have plenty of evidence to show that humans figured out that you could take liquid compounds and separate them into their constituents parts with heat.

The earliest types of documented skills, the skills go back to Greek times. And they were typically, you had a, a pot with, with a, which they called a ubit that would heat up the, the fluid. And they did make alcohol this way back, you know, several thousand years ago up into a head where the vapors collect and then they go down a tube that slopes into a receiver container of some kind, and you cool it down and you get some kind of distillate. Okay. Those are sort of the generic terms. Now, the, the liquid we're particularly interested in this case is ethanol. And ethanol boils at 78 degrees centigrade. That's 165 Fahrenheit versus water, which is, you know, a hundred degrees 212. So you can heat this mixture of liquid just enough to have the alcohol lift out without lifting the water out.

And now we get into various kinds of stills. So the Olympic stills are sort of ancient stills and some of them are still used. Typically the Armon y process, that early low alcohol level, they typically distill up to 40 or so percent to make these early brandies out of old wine. Still use limbic stills. They're very simple. The advance, still the fancy still today, and I mentioned these in last week's show, the column stills, like the coffee still are for continuous distillation. You know, pot stills are batched. You load them, you distill for a certain period of time, typically five, six hours, and then you have to clean them out and start over. Column stills are continuous. So you were literally feeding feedstock into it all the time. It's actually two separate columns and one called the analyzer, one called rectifier. Cuz 19th century names are the best.

And they use steam to, to heat. Steam is actually added into the bottom of the, of the analyzer with the wash coming down from the top through a series of plates. And the heat's applied and, and the alcohol starts to evaporate, goes out the top into the rec, into the rectifier where it's condensed and filtered out. Column stills are the modern way. They're often made of stainless steel and are quite a bit fancier. That's where you can get into like, making neutral spirits or a high rectified spirits, 95% alcohol plus it when you're trying to talk about whiskey, you, you rarely want to, you don't want to distill that high because it takes all the flavors out. We talk about things like progenitors and Esther Ether and poly ethyl Esther that are flavor that come from the grain.

And so you want to distill a little lower. So in the case of whiskey, they use potstills. And that picture you showed up was a collection of potstills. This is basically the modern version of the Olympic stills. All batch based, specifically for barley based whiskeys. Most of all potstills are copper. And the reason is that there's a certain amount of sulfur that exists within barley. It's a normal part of the plant. And those sulfur compounds when distilled can get quite foul and copper reacts with sulfur to be able to remove it as copper sulfate, you want a certain amount, which you don't want too much. Didn't notice that I, I thought it was so because it was so conductive for the cooling, but it's actually, well that's chemical. That's it's, there's a chemical part and there is certainly the conduction part, like that's important.

And that's, oh, interesting, that picture of the pot still you have there. So the lower part is called the pot. And then you have sort of a shoulder region that goes up into the swan neck and ultimately onto the lie arm. Now the sru, these structures vary from pot still, pot still. And each distillery has very specific designs. And the part part of this is that as the condensate comes up in the still and gets into that swan neck, it does land on the copper and cools and will tend to fall back down. They call it reflux. And it takes a certain amount of cycles of reflux to remove mo the co the co the sulfur to the level that you're happy with. Sometimes these stills will have a bulge above that pot they call the og. And that is again, giving more surface area for reflux.

The shape of the swan neck, how tall it goes, whether it curves or not, all specific to a given distillery. The lie arm coming out here, you know, here you see them coming out horizontally. Some of them tilt up, some of them tilt down very, very stylized and, and all part of the flavor of the white spirit they're going to generate in the end. Now af after you come out of the li arm, then you're going into a condenser. So now you're trying to consolidate those al the, those distilled alcohols. And you can see that coil set sitting there is probably from a worm tub. So that would be sitting in a big tub, wooden tub full of cold water. The distillate would condense out of that through those coils. And that would give you your initial distillation. Hmm. Now Scottish distillation is almost always a double distillation process.

So you're gonna start with a first installation that'll take that seven, 8% initial wart and then take it up to around 20 to 30%. A B V. There's a bunch of challenges to this. So the, these first stills are what they call the wash stills are larger, they're the bigger of the stills. The spirit stills will tend to be smaller. And the wash stills have windows in them. They call 'em sight glasses to watch for foaming. How you heat the still matters a lot. In traditional stills they were heated directly. There was heat underneath the still. Now there's a couple of problems with that. One is that tends to get very hot and it can burn the wash in the process. And so sometimes you want those, my artifacts, some stills per some distilleries prefer that effect cuz they get some toasted notes into it.

 But you have to manage that very carefully. It's also an explosion hazard. You are making alcohol, gas, yikes. And should it leak from the chamber, you can blow the building to pieces. Oh my hell. You know, there's a reason why this is a regulated industry. And so most modern Scottish distillers today use steam. So the boiler is in a separate building where the fire is and they pipe the steam to the stills to heat them up far safer. You showed a for a moment, there are mechanical structure inside of a still that's a stir and it's for direct heated stills to keep the mash moving, the wash moving around so that it doesn't burn. But if you're using steam where you only get to 200 to 300 degrees at most, remember you're only trying to get the 78 Cel Celsius, just enough heat to be able to evaporate the alcohol off.

You don't need to to go that high. So your distiller is the very active process. The distiller is involved in here as the, as the mash initially starts to heat up, it's going to foam at first. You don't want that foam going up into the line neck and getting into the distillate. It's cont it's a contaminant. So you'll be heating slowly and watching the foam level through the sight glasses. And eventually as the still heats up as a whole and the mashes to temperature, the foam will die down. And then you can get running to get to temperature to start to get alcohol extracted from it. Now that's the first wa that, that's the, the, the first distillation, the wash distillation. And it's going to flow into a holding tank of what should called the low wines tank. And low wines is that 20 to 30% alcohol, initial distillate.

Now you're gonna go into your spirit stills, very typically same design. They're also copper. They tend to be smaller because you have less liquid involved. There's fewer solids. So you don't need sight glasses so forth. There's no foaming risk here. But now you're gonna heat it up again and it's going to have that reflux of flex. It's gonna go up into the swan neck and fall back down. There's gonna be a couple of cycles. This is another distillation where the, the wash distillation probably runs four to six hours. The second distillation six to eight hours, and you're going much higher. And the, those fluids are going to go down into the spirit safe. Well also known as the intermediate spirit receiver. Now this is a locked cabinet with clear glass on it container, because now we have to talk about taxes. Oh, so when you're ma you know, back in the, you were just making spirits for yourself and maybe selling them.

So of course the tax man wanted a cut of this. And so lots of smuggling involved. And so the excised the excised tack of 1823 is when they came up with this thing called the spirit safe model. And those locks are controlled by the tax man, by the excise officers to control access to it. And so the distiller actually has to operate the still with remote controls through this. So there's actually this particular one you've got on the screen right now, he's got three different points. So the left side would actually be the low wine distillations that comes out of the first wa the wash still. And then they are basically watching for clarity. So it's going down into what's called defiance tank, which is the stuff they're not gonna use. They'll probably use it for a second distillation later on until it runs clear.

And then it'll be pointed. They'll turn it, turn a little knob and aim that spout into the low wines tank. And then as it gets later in the distillation, particulate will start to appear again and they'll steer it away. When we get into the spirit distillation that's at center point and they're watching for the alcohol level. So we know that ethanol evaporates at 78 degrees centigrade, but there are other compounds that evaporate it. Lower temperatures including methanol, the stuff that makes you go blind and acetyl hydrates and ethyl esthers. And so those typically show up in the very beginning of any high distillation. And the alcohol level substantially higher. So you measure the alcohol level and if you're running in the 70 to 70 78, 80%, that's part of the head, you don't want that. And so you'll steer that back into the faint tank as after the head comes the heart.

This is the stuff they call new, make the this, this distillate you want. And that's around 71, 70 2% depending on the distillery. And they'll put that into the in, into the intermediate receiver. So that's the stuff they're gonna la later barrel later in the run, hours later the alcohol level begins to decline. It gets down below 70%, 68, 60 5%. And that's when you start to get these heavy oilier compounds that are very strong flavors and they'll tend to steer that all again over to the faint receiver. Again, in Scottish tradition, nothing is wasted. So everything ends up with the faint receiver will typically be put back into the wash, still to add to the next run. But won't be part of that new make. So you're all that stuff gets shifted off to the other side, all controlled remotely through these safes.

I would point out that today the distilleries have the keys. Not that whiskey isn't taxed, it is, it's just taxed at bottling now, not taxed at distillation. Remember, all of this is a clear spirit, right? All the color we're gonna, it's gonna come from the wood in the next phase. But now I get to tell the story of why I selected the Delmore for our whiskey this week. So I take a tour of the distillery at the Delmore and they have their two two, their two original wasdale are massive. There's 16,500 liters now that's what, 360, 3600 Imperial gallons, about 4,400 US gallons. Cuz why wouldn't you have different measures for gallons? Like what the hell is wrong with gallons in the first place? I think. Did the US pick a different gallon? Just cuz it was different from the uk? Nah, not that simple.

The US gallons actually based on the queen and gallon, which is an English gallon based for on wine. Wine gallons were queen and gallons at that time. They also had grain gallons and they had beer gallons, which are different sizes because why wouldn't you mean three different sizes? All the same name <laugh> and who was a gallon of wine anyway. And so eventually eventually the UK consolidated on the imperial gallon, which was 160 ounces versus the Queen Allen gallon, which is 128 ounces. Ounces being a measurement of weight or a measure of volume. Hey, why not both because reasons, right? And this is where we get to the whole point about the metric system, right? The French Revolution. Like come on [inaudible] you're still beheading your nobles with an ax. Why? When would you ever stop and have wine in baguettes? Right? It's the, it's the French Revolution. [inaudible]

Now you could beheaded as a dozen nobles per hour, much more time, way more efficient, and you can retire by 62. Or is it 64 few whatever revolution. Nobody knows. But listen, Cherie, forget about the feet, the pounds, the ounces, the gallons. A 10 centimeter cube holds one liter of water, which weighs one kilogram. It's just so simple. So simple, so simple. So in 1874 at the Delmore, they got bought these at the time, massive 16,500 liter stills and they didn't fit in the building. The building wasn't big enough for them. And so they cut the swan necks off, oh my god, to get them into the building and then put a cap on it and attached the liar arm below the cap making a completely different looking still. And when they ran them, they like them. Ah. And so to this day now later they bought another set of Wash Dills that fit in their building better.

So they actually use both sets to combine to make their distinct version of whiskey. They're big on cherry tasking and they're fundamental. The one I recommend anyone start with, if you want to experiment with the Delmore, is the Delmore 12. It's about $65 us. It's got a deep red rich color. The 15, the 18 and so on up the line, get more expensive and all have their own natures to 'em. And how a lot of that has to do with barreling. But there's nothing quite like the wash stills of the Delmar. And once you know all the story of that, then when you look at it still, you're like, what's up with that still? And the fact that it didn't fit in the billing in 1874 is how that came about. I love

Leo Laporte (02:19:43):
It. And I love the metal deer on the front of the delmore. Yeah,

Rich Campbell (02:19:48):
The stag. The stag. That is awesome. The famous, famous stag.

Leo Laporte (02:19:52):
So the Delmore 12 is our recommendation this time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I'm gonna run out to my liquor barn and find one right now. Drink the whole thing. A metric gallon of do it's an

Rich Campbell (02:20:07):
Imperial gallon or a US gallon. Nobody knows. It's all confusing. You know what, I try 750 milliliters. Yeah, it's a nice measurement's. Simple. It's very precise. It's easy, it's very simple. It's three quarters of a kilo. It makes total sense. And so we're now at the point where we have about a 70 to 73% clear distillate white spirit ready for barreling. And that's what we'll talk about next

Leo Laporte (02:20:31):
Week. Sounds great. All this talk makes me thirsty, but I guess that's the point. We do have from Joe Esposito a suggestion for the title of this show and a poster, 12 Angry Pauls starring Paul. Paul. Paul Paul Paul. Paul Paul Paul Paul and Paul very nice Joe.

Rich Campbell (02:20:51):
That's awesome. And a

Leo Laporte (02:20:52):
Partridge in a para tree. I think Joe spends the entire show working in Photoshop. It's kinda like knitting while you watch people's heads being chopped off, but it's not quite the same. I love that. I like how he made it the illustration. Look like you, that's yeah. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I know. It's crazy. Great. So this was like 12 Angry Men, right? Yeah. I think it's the poster of 12 Angry Men, slightly modified <laugh> slightly. I love, I can't stand there being one of me. I I <laugh> you only imagine,

Rich Campbell (02:21:23):
You know the best part about 12 Pauls Bounty

Leo Laporte (02:21:26):
<Laugh>. All right, ladies and gentlemen, up this mess. We have concluded the show and I'm glad you were here for it. Another great episode of Windows Weekly. You'll find That's also Rock lives. Paul Throt That's his blog. He also has, of course, the field guided Windows 11 and the brand new Windows everywhere, which is kind of a history of Microsoft Windows as seen through its programming and programming languages. And both Check 'em out, check 'em out. Well worth reading in both cases. Thank you Paul and thank you Richard. We do the show Wednesdays, or as I like to call it, taco Tuesday, part two. Every Wednesday, 11:00 AM to 2:00 PM He stole that joke, but it's a good one. 11:00 AM to 2:00 PM Pacific time. That be about 2:00 PM to 5:00 PM Eastern Time. That would be, I don't know, you figured it out.

1800 utc. It all begins. And the livestream is live dot twit tv, audio or video you choose. If you're watching live chat, live in our irc, open to all. That's And of course, club members get their private club where Delmore is served exclusively <laugh> <laugh> at twit tv slash club. Not true. Sorry. No, not true. It's up to you what you wanna serve. That's all I can say. We also have OnDemand versions at the website, twit tv slash ww. Youtube also has a channel dedicated Windows Weekly. The ultimate on-demand, of course, is subscribing your favorite podcast player. That way you've just got it sitting on your phone whenever you need it. And you can listen to your leisure whenever you need a hit. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Richard. Have a great couple of weeks. I'm gonna be gone next week, weekend on the week after and the week after that.

I'm going on vacation. What? No, it's shock me. How dare you. How dare I What? What this vacation you speak on, you guys work when you leave town, but I, you told, you said, oh, this is the cruise. You're going Mediterranean. Yeah. We're gonna see if I can get, so I look forward to seeing those photos. Covid part two. This is the last time you and I nice Richard Weather. Europes good. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we kind, we'll be fine. We can track. I one of the chances of that happening again. How? It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. Tuck. I will be back on the 26th. Who's going to, who's gonna fill in? You might be wondering. Yeah. So am I, I am wondering. I don't know. Okay, we talked about it. I've promptly forgotten. I suspect Micah Sergeant will come by sometimes.

Maybe Aunt Pruit. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> other times. Maybe Jason Howell. Okay. It'll be one of those three. Maybe all three. Cuz I'll be gone for three weeks. I like all those guys. Yeah, that's all good. It'll all be good people, you know, they'll let you do your thing and they'll do the ads. That's, that makes it easy. You're gonna miss the barreling. Ah, damn it. You know, I could still hear the show. I, I have a whole bit on Glen Far, find the 1956 edition. We're gonna, I like Glen Farts. I like Glen Farts. So does Mrs. Farts by the way, <laugh>. Thank you for joining us. Have a wonderful month. I'll see you late in April. You too. And now the rest of you come back here next Wednesday for another Windows Weekly. Bye-Bye.



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