Tech News Weekly Episode 289 Transcript


Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Jason Howell (00:00:00):
Coming up next on Tech News Weekly, it's me, Jason Howell, also my co-host Micah Sergeant. We've got three interviews for you today and Micah's story of the week. Starting first with Carrie Davis from Axios. She joins to talk about Spotify's earnings, and it sounds like they're making some big changes to their podcast effort. Very interesting stuff for the, for the market at large for podcasting. Also, Jason Snell joins from Six Colors. Why Will Jason was at Apple's WW d c event, actually got to wear the Apple Vision Pro, and he talks about his experience putting that on his face. Also, Victoria's Song from the Verge lives in New York City and she has the Dyson Zone air mask. So she put that on her face to see if it actually made any difference. Amidst all of that smoke, she tells us all about it. And then finally, Micah talks about Adobe's generative AI tools and the legal representation guarantee that they're giving pretty important stuff. All that and more. Coming up next on Tech News Weekly

Mikah Sargent (00:01:05):
Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is Tweet. This

Jason Howell (00:01:14):
Is Tech News Weekly episode 289, recorded Thursday, June 8th, 2023. This episode of Tech News Weekly is brought to you by decisions. Don't let complexity block your company's growth decisions. Rules driven process automation software allows you to manage a complex digital landscape, build custom workflows, business rules, software, modernize legacy systems, and improve customer experiences in decisions. Unified no-code platform. Visit to learn how automating anything can change everything.

Mikah Sargent (00:01:48):
And by ACI learning IT skills are outdated in about 18 months. Stay ahead of the curve and strengthen your IT expertise with affordable certification based learning that will launch or advance your career. Individuals. Use Code TWIT 30 for 30% off a standard or premium individual IT pro slash twi.

Jason Howell (00:02:13):
And by Collide, collide is a device trust solution that ensures that if a device isn't secure, it can't access your apps, it's zero trust For Okta, visit and book a demo today.

Mikah Sargent (00:02:27):
Hello and welcome to Tech News Weekly, the show where every week we talk to and about the people making and breaking the tech news. I am one of your hosts, Micah, Sergeant,

Jason Howell (00:02:39):
And I'm the other guy, Jason Howell from this strangely lit room at home. It's just not 100% podcast ready, but it's close. Close enough it,

Mikah Sargent (00:02:49):
Yes, close enough. It, it does what we need it to do. And more importantly, we've still got this beautiful piping audio coming through. For all that's right

Jason Howell (00:02:59):
Out there, <laugh>, no matter what, we've got the Hele PR 40, the esteemed microphone delivering you crisp, clear audio. So let's get into it. We actually have three interviews today, so we wanna get started and get to all of them. And then of course, later Micah's story of the week. But let's start with Spotify. And this story is a little, a little close to my heart, possibly our hearts at twit because Spotify over the last handful of years has transformed from a music only streaming service to a podcasting Bo and China shop juggernaut. That's my opinion anyways, buying up a number of podcast entities, pulling podcasts further away from its open access for all beginnings. So you can tell, like I'm, I'm not entirely jazzed about what Spotify has done with podcasting, but I do find it interesting to see how this week during its earnings Spotify revealed some major changes to its podcast business. And joining me to walk through what these mean for Spotify and perhaps also for podcasting in general, is Carrie Flynn from Axios. Welcome back, Carrie. It's been ages.

Kerry Flynn (00:04:05):
It has been ages. I'm happy to be here though. I'm sorry to admit that I listened to a lot of podcasts on Spotify, so I guess I'm part of the problem. <Laugh>.

Jason Howell (00:04:14):
No, no, you're not part of the problem. I mean, Spotify is everywhere and I think that's the, that's the struggle, right? I mean, media in general is undergoing this, this major overhaul in the last however many years because technology companies have gotten involved in these things that before were kind of offered differently. You know, video now through Netflix, and now the Netflix Empire is, is kind of seeing its, its cracks and what does that mean for the, the movie industry? It's kind of similar to what we're going through with podcasting right now. And I don't blame you for that at all. It's really, it's Spotify being everywhere and that's just the way it is. But let's talk a little bit about Spotify's earning report. Just to kind of get started. How is the company doing? What did they announce regarding their podcast business as well?

Kerry Flynn (00:05:01):
I really liked your analogy about Netflix, and I a hundred percent agree. Essentially, these tech businesses came in and were like, what if we just don't make money and just start doing these crazy things that change the industry? And so now to flash forward to where they are today, the issue is yeah, they haven't been making money and Wall Street is like Spotify, what if you start making money, please do that. <Laugh>. so a big, a big investment they made as you shared it was back in really 2019 was when they kicked their podcast investments into gear. And part of that was to expand the platform, right? They hoped that they could get more users increased time on platform by introducing podcasts. But as their earnings continue to show again and again, is they poured billions of dollars into that investment and they're not getting enough return.

Like, yes, their advertising business is growing, but not enough to recoup the cost that they put into that investment. And as of late, as you probably know, the advertising industry has been hit just less money going into ads. There was yes, a huge growth when it comes to advertising in audio, but it's not growing again as much as they need it to. So they've had to just do some cutbacks. Again, what Daniel Act has acknowledged is that he sees that he quote unquote overinvested in podcasting, and he's just trying to be more responsible with money now. And they've, so they've decided to make a lot of cuts.

Jason Howell (00:06:22):
So they're making a lot of cuts. The podcast division is getting cut by 200 people. That's 2% of the company's workforce, which when you put it that way, 2% of the company's workforce, it doesn't sound like a lot. I, I think, but I'm sure it is. I mean, and especially it is for anyone who's getting laid off as a result of this. But my, my curiosity is 200 people from the podcast division, do we have any insight or any understanding as far as what that is a cut from? Like how many people were, you know, were positioned to be working with podcasting within Spotify, and then we know like how big of a how big of a change this actually is for Spotify's efforts in podcasting?

Kerry Flynn (00:07:04):
It's a huge hit to their podcast division. Like you said, 2% that's of the overall company's workforce. It's not of the podcast division that is just 200 people at the division. I don't know how many people were there exactly. But I do know from speaking to people and just seeing people grieve openly about it online Yeah. Is that it's, it's bad. You know, the, what the big change that they did is merge Gimlet and podcast two of their studios that they acquired separately back in 2019. Those names are no more. And so the people that work there, a lot of them no longer have jobs because they've consolidated their efforts there. You know, I hate to use the word streamlined, but that is the industry jargon word that they're really saying. And so yes, people are losing their jobs with that.

And it's, it's awful. And I, again, it's what's so sad about it is the investments, when those happened to acquisitions in 2019, it was really celebrated, right? Like the fact that these companies, they were the stars of, of podcasting. Gimlet is perhaps best known for startup the podcast, they also did reply all. Podcast is one of the best true crime studios, true crime, one of the most popular formats of podcasting. And so, you know, they saw it as a welcome that they would get acquired and hopefully further invested by Spotify. But the truth is, what people there have said is their writing has been on the wall there for a while. Really, again, while Spotify was really happy to invest in podcasting the past couple years, it's really brought less attention and effort into the podcast. And so again, writing on the wall is really what they said there is. While it is, it is shocking and sad that it happened, it wasn't too surprising to the people there that they decided to cut back.

Jason Howell (00:08:47):
Yeah, yeah. Now, you talked about Gimlet and Parcast being basically combined into what they're calling Spotify studios from a hmm, from, from kind of a, from the perspective of what this means for Spotify and how they produce their content. I mean, they had these separate divisions, now they're combined. What do we see as, as consumers potentially from this? Do we see less new podcasts being developed by the companies within Spotify? I mean, how, how does this kind of trickle down to the users who are used to getting their podcasts through Spotify?

Kerry Flynn (00:09:27):
I think fewer podcasts is definitely what's to expect from that. And to go back to your Netflix analogy, it's very much the same thing happening there, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we're still seeing new shows from Netflix, right? We're still seeing new shows from Spotify. There's just fewer <laugh>. But then there's the argument, well, perhaps we had too many to begin with, right? And there's not enough succeeding, right? And so what if we invest in the ones are succeeding? So one thing from talking to people that work on Spotify and, and Daniel Eck has been spo outspoken about, it's not that podcasts aren't working on Spotify. They tell the power of Joe Rogan. They just sound assigned a deal with Emma Chamberlain earlier this year. Her podcast is doing incredible Joe Rogan as doing incredible. So again, it's not like they don't care about podcasting. It just seems to be that they're putting more attention into those winners rather than spreading themselves into and creating new content that isn't making enough money for them to be frank.

Jason Howell (00:10:25):
It, it's so interesting because the correlation really is pretty similar when we look at Spotify's impact on podcasting and scooping up, like you said, Joe Rogan and these other big names that in and of themselves might be successful podcasts, but are they translating into a, a successful business for Spotify in their plan? And when you, when you overlap that with the movie industry, I just read a really fascinating article in Variety this morning that's talking just about kind of like that we are, we are at post peak tv. Like we've been in this, in this, in this realm of peak television for a number of years now. Largely driven by the fact that we have these big technology companies scooping up and, and changing the the foundational structure of how Hollywood works or how podcasting works. And they did that in the guise of, well, this is how we run technology companies successfully.

Why can't we do this with media? And in the end, you know, I, going back to my bowl at a China shop earlier, like it was, it seemed like an interesting strategy when it was working. And now that it's not, it's like, well, what are we gonna be left with? How does this kind of intertwine with the general slowdown in podcasting in the ad revenue that is declining all around? And this is largely seems to be happening as a post pandemic reaction. Is this really showing that Spotify isn't immune to the forces that impact the greater podcast industry in general?

Kerry Flynn (00:12:01):
For sure. Spotify is not immune to those forces. Ad revenue is down at Spotify. I guess to Spotify's credit though, introducing podcasting was a reason why their ad revenue increased, right? And they were able to build and expand on and ad business that again, translates into their, you know, music platform for the ad, the people who pay for the freemium, not the ad free version. So it did help grow that business. But to your point, they are not immune by the troubles of the ad industry, and they're not immune by being a publicly traded company and being scrutinized by Wall Street, right? Wall Street rots returns, and this company is not delivering enough right now. Same thing we've made this analogy a bunch now, but Netflix. So these companies are being forced to make drastic changes to their strategy and, and enacting on it pretty fast, right?

So whether it was getting rid of podcast and Gimlet and streamlining their operations, another big change was deciding to perhaps license out their shows, right? So they, they did this big strategy of we are going to have exclusive content. You can only listen to Emer Chamberlain's new podcast on Spotify, and now they're considering, what if we sell them to other platforms and make money off of licensing deals? The same thing is happening right now with Disney and TV networks deciding to, to make money through licensing. It's just a way to diversify revenue when they're direct revenue, when the ad market is being hit. It's really, you just have to go back to how the business used to work and make yourself a little more sustainable that way. It's what's fascinating to me about that strategy as well, is it was something what the Obamas their higher ground studio actually pushed for.

They signed that exclusive deal with Spotify, and one area of frustration was the fact that their reach on that podcast, their podcast was limited, right? Because not everyone subscribes to Spotify. And so then they decided to sign a deal with Audible who they embraced that Amazon's audible was like, yeah, whatever. We'll have it early, but you can listen to it wherever you get your podcast. And so again, we're starting to see that a lot more from these companies who are just, I hate to say it, but desperate to make money because of the pressure.

Jason Howell (00:14:10):
Yeah. Interesting. I'll be super curious to see if they're, if if in this kind of you know, panic state of like, oh, what do we do now if things kind of return a little bit more back to no normal, maybe that's hopeful thinking maybe the, this is just a new normal and we end up somewhere completely different. But obviously it's near and dear to my heart and everyone at twi, you know, we are a podcast network after all. So we follow this stuff closely. Carrie, it's a pleasure getting the, the chance to talk with you again, thank you for carving out a few minutes to talk with us today. Of course you write for Axios. I love the work that you do and that Axios does. In general, if people wanna find you online and follow your work, where can they find you? I don't know, tweeting or tweeting, whatever the, the word is, <laugh> for whatever service you happen to be on. <Laugh>.

Kerry Flynn (00:14:55):
Thanks for having me. It was great to return and talk about something that, you know, we're both clearly passionate about. I guess the best place to find me on is on Twitter, though. I have mixed feelings about that platform now. But it's fine. My handles Carrie and Flynn. You can also just go to That's what I am so happy to work there. My whole team does awesome coverage across the industry. Yeah, so take some time and, and dive into Axios.

Jason Howell (00:15:20):
Indeed, people definitely should. Thank you, Carrie. Such a pleasure. We'll talk to you soon and take care of yourself.

Kerry Flynn (00:15:25):
Thanks guys. You too.

Jason Howell (00:15:27):
All right, have a good afternoon. All right. Up next. What is it like to see through the Apple Vision Pro? Like actually on your face, looking through it with your own eyes? Well, you don't get to know for a while, neither do I. Neither does Micah, but Jason Snail Snell from six Colors, he can actually tell us cuz he wore the, the goggles. And I'm super curious to hear what he has has to say about that. But that's coming up next. But first, this episode, tech News Weekly is brought to you by decisions In today's digital landscape, businesses are faced with an overwhelming number of tools and systems that are necessary to operate effectively. But managing all of those tools, ensuring they work together seamlessly, you know, it's not easy to make all that work seamlessly. Well, this is where decisions comes in. Decisions can make it seamless for you.

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Mikah Sargent (00:18:55):
Yes, Apple's WW d c Worldwide Developers Conference is underway this week. And on Monday at the keynote apple announced the new Apple Vision Pro headset. It is a mixed reality headset that by all accounts is sort of a, a masterpiece of hardware at the very least. And some folks were able to try it out. One of those folks is MRE Weekly's own Jason Snell of six who was able to give the device a spin and will be joining us today to talk about the experience he had with the headset. Hello, Jason.

Jason Snell (00:19:43):
Hi, Micah. It's good to be here.

Mikah Sargent (00:19:46):
Yeah, good to have you here and good to talk about this. One of the unique things that I think you and any member of the press who's gotten a chance to try this headset gets to talk about is the setup process before the setup process. With this headset, it's my understanding that there may even be sort of like a multi-room process, and I was hoping you could tell us a little bit. I mean walk us through it as if we have a headset on and we're wa looking through your eyes as you're going through what it takes to get from walking into wherever this is taking place to actually sitting down and trying it on.

Jason Snell (00:20:26):
Sure. So it's a, it's a rainy morning in Cupertino setting the scene. There's a guy with a squeegee trying to wipe all the water off of the temporary building that they've put on the soccer field at Apple Park. Too much detail. So basically what they need to do is they need to have an eye adjustment cuz they actually have these magnetic magnetic clipped image adjusters go in so that you don't have to wear glasses in there cuz there's not really room for that. I actually have a pair of something similar for the meta quests too. You know, you get your prescription and then in, in the long run, Zeis optics will fulfill it because it's technically a medical device because it's, it's actually like corrective lenses. So those will be, if you need lenses, that'll be an extra purchase on top of the already expensive purchase that you'll be making.

I would say that then so they do that and then also they enrolled me with basically something that if you've ever done face id, you know, you hold the phone in front of your face and you kind of uhhuh <affirmative> do the thing where you circle your face around that's what they do. My understanding is that you'll be able to do that if you're ordering online to buy one of these, you'll actually do that yourself in the Apple Store app and that it will be otherwise, if you go into an Apple store, they will have an app there that will do that for you. And that is to get the contours of your face in order to find the right light shield, which is basically the piece that goes behind the hardware itself. And it blocks out the light from the rest of the world, but also it's doing padding and cushioning to get it to be the right shape for your face so that the, that the weight is distributed top and bottom.

And Apple, apple said very specifically, they don't have very many of those for this demo, but they anticipate by the time the product comes out, they will have a lot of them. So so that you'll be able to get one that fits your face in the ideal way. Now, because this is a demo, basically that happens and then we are sit, sat in something like a, kinda like an airport lounge while behind the scenes undoubtedly they've got this limited number of functional devices and they will, you know, snap in the light shield and put on the corrective lenses that are closest to your prescription and then put it in a room. And then you go in a room and they're, you know, there's like a fake living room there and you sit down and say all right, let's get started.

And then, and then I actually put on the device. And then there's an actual setup routine, which is kind of delightful, where you do some eye tracking setup by looking at a bunch of, following a bunch of dots with your eyes, and then you hand hold your hands up and it scans your hands for hand tracking. And at that point it just drops you into into reality. Essentially it drops you into a view of the room so you don't enter some sort of like magical fairytale land when the thing boots up for the first time. Once it scans your, does your eye tracking and scans your hands, you are in the room that you're in and, and there's nothing that makes it look any different from the actual room other than that you're looking through this device.

Mikah Sargent (00:23:18):
So, yeah. Let's actually two things here. First, it sounds like, and you'll have to correct me if, if you think I'm wrong here, this is one of the most sort of bespoke products that Apple offers. It, it perhaps part of that, that huge price tag. It sounds like when someone goes through this process, there's a certain level of customization that's taking place between the potential need for corrective lenses, but also these little head shapes. Is it that they're going to have a range of you say 25? Or is it that they're sort of trying to custom make it forever? Every single person? Honestly,

Jason Snell (00:23:56):
I honestly don't know. I imagine there will be some range, I don't know if it's five or 20 or something in between, but I I think it's not gonna be small, medium, large, I would say, yeah, it's probably the most bespoke in a way, but at the same time, they're probably using a very similar pathway that they do for Apple Watch bands, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because Apple Watch bands come in lots of different sizes. Now that they've got the loops, those come in very specific sizes. Remember originally it was just sort, sort of like the individual Apple Watch band with a bunch of dots in it, and it's sort of like you a, you get the big one or the little one, and then you adjust. But with their, with their loops that are not adjustable, suddenly they've got eight different sizes in every color.

Right? And I think it's gonna be a little like that where they will have, every Apple store is gonna have a stock of whatever that number is of the light shields that they do. I, I think it is a question like, depending on how much you rely on that there's a lot of questions about if this is a multi-user device, and it it sounds like right now what Apple is saying is it's for a primary user and then there's like a guest mode. Kind of a bummer if you're in a two person household and you both want to use it, that you have to, one of you has to be the guest, but the other part of it is like, is the other person, even if there's two users on this thing, is the other person gonna have to buy an additional light shield and like snap it on and snap the other one off and do all of that to get the right fit and that? So it sounds like it's gonna be a pretty intensely personal device. Then again, this is Apple. I think part of what they're trying to do here is, is make it as you know, perfect on your face as possible.

Mikah Sargent (00:25:30):
<Laugh>. So speaking of perfection one of the early reactions I've seen and actually heard yesterday at the, the talk show event was the sort of striking realization that you, when you go into that mode right after you, you've done the setup process that it looks like reality. And John Gruber mentioned for him at least, that he could sort of lift up the headset, put it back down, and there was no difference between what he saw. But I noticed in your in your writing about this that you almost didn't go that far with it. And so I am curious to hear kind of in, in your initial look at things, how, how much like real life it felt for you versus what you've experienced in the Meta Quests two and perhaps other headsets that you tried. I know you had experience with PSVR as well.

Jason Snell (00:26:28):
I've only used the original P SVR and the Meta Quests two, and there are better headsets available now. The meta quests twos cameras are black and white and they're grainy and they're nothing like this. Right? And I know that Meta's got other products now that are not like the, the meta quests twos really low quality cameras. I I would say I gruber's right in the sentence, he's making the point that it, you, you're not coming to it from an unlikely perspective. It doesn't feel like you're looking through a camera lens that's somewhere else. It does feel like you're at the exact same perspective and height and everything as where your eyes are. They're trying to get that to be a perfect match. What I would say is, one, as, as John Gruper mentioned it is, there may be some color balance issues, I felt like the color was a little warmer.

He said it was warmer, and I actually agree with him. It felt a little warmer than reality there. And that's just, I mean, that's a hard thing to get right, but it was close. And then the other thing I would say is like, it, it's not perfect. It's not supposed to be perfect, but the truth is, there's like, reality is very highly detailed, right? And these are 4K screens, they're really impressive screens, but the truth is they're a little softer, right? I mean, it's a camera and it's a screen and it's a little softer. I'd say it's remarkable. And I say that you can very quickly forget that you're even looking at screens and it feels like you're looking at reality. But I don't want to overhype it. It's not indistinguishable from reality because that would require a level of detail and realism that we don't, we just don't have high resolution screens who can, who can do, and cameras that can do that yet.

Although when you look at this, you do have to keep thinking that this is a first generation product, and chances are in five years we're gonna look back at it and think, wow, it's so primitive, even though it is one of the most sophisticated pieces of consumer hardware ever made. So, you know, they could, they could up it and, and it's already pretty remarkably close to reality enough that you can sort of like forget that it's not, and that's a pretty impressive start. I just don't want to overhype it. It's not like you, if you woke up with that on and couldn't feel it on your face, you'd think you were looking at reality. It's not quite that detailed, but it's real close. It's pretty good. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (00:28:37):
And let's talk about materials. You know, I, it is, it makes sense that the part that seems to be the, the swappable part for different sizing. You know, you're not packing too many of the most expensive materials into that part, so it's a little bit easier to make different versions of it. But what has this actually made of? What does it feel like to, to lift whoops, to lift? Is it heavy? And maybe how does it compare, balance it on your face in comparison to the other headsets that you've tried?

Jason Snell (00:29:05):
Well, it's multiple parts. Think of the, the primary tech part as a, as like a big curved iPhone. It weigh, it weighs about a pound, a little less than a pound. The, the other stuff adds to the weight to it. So there's this part in front that is the heavy part. It is aluminum and glass, but it's attached to the face shield and it's attached to the head B straps. And I think there's an interesting bit of industrial design going on there where upfront it feels very much like an Apple product. Again, glass and aluminum little, you know, very carefully machined holes and little, little buttons on top that feel like language we've seen in other products. It's an iteration of those products. But the strap that goes around your head is this woven material. It's elastic, but woven. It looks, it, it really reminded me of like a wool sweater or something like that.

It's actually kind of huffy kind of fluffy. And I think that there is an intentional thing there where Apple is trying to balance the sleek technical aspect of the front part of the product with a, or an organic, almost homey and comfy feeling, a soft feeling on the back part of it. Which is, it makes it feel a little more humane, which I think is what they're going for here. They write down to their philosophy of not wanting to cut you off from the real world, and they want it to be kinda like, it, it's like some of Apple's other materials like like watchbands and various leather things that they do where they're, where they obviously have spent a lot of money and time thinking about the materials that they're using in something like the band. And I, the band was really nice.

It was a very well-made soft kind of pleasant thing. And, and, and so I think they're trying to isolate the parts that are touching your body and make those soft and organic and feel like really nice materials. And then the thing that's, that's the technical product is hanging in front of your face in front of those objects mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And, and, and so you don't, shouldn't feel like you have a hard metal thing pressed against your face, right? That's, that. I think that's what they're trying to avoid. And mine was a little off balance. I think I didn't have it adjusted quite right or maybe I need a different face shield. It kind of was resting a little too far on my forehead. But my experience with all these VR headsets is that it takes a little time for you to figure out what the right, you know, how to put it on and how to wear it, right, so that you can wear it in the long run. And, you know, I Apple expect the best materials, I would say with a product like this.

Mikah Sargent (00:31:34):
Right. And let's talk about the actual experiences that you had. I'd love, there were lots of them and a lot of people have talked about them. But for you, I'm curious to hear what you found to be the most compelling sort of demonstration of everything you were able to try or if there were a couple that really just got you.

Jason Snell (00:31:55):
Yeah, well, 3D content I wasn't surprised that 3D content was good. Honestly, on the Oculus quest, which is a very low resolution screen, it's the best 3D movie experience I've ever had, really, because it's different when it's going straight into your eyes and you're not wearing like, weird glasses and a screen that's at half brightness, which is what happens when you go see a 3D movie in the movie theater. So being in that not just the, the avatar clip that they showed us from Avatar two, which is obviously very aggressively 3d, but they had a, you know, there's the home video that's in 3d. There are these immersive videos that are like 180 3D objects where you can like look down and see that you're on the edge of a cliff and feel a little bit of vertigo and stuff like that, or feel like you're flying, that's all, all, or the sports clips, which are spectacular.

And it's the same thing. It feels like you're there. Those are powerful in a way that I think you gotta see it to understand it, but it's not, it doesn't feel like a gimmick to me. It feels like a different kind of medium. Especially the stuff that's not in a, a motion picture frame, although I think 3D movies will be great in it. The other thing I would say is gestures, and I know it sounds almost boring, but like I found the gesture interface where you're using your gaze to select something. So whatever you're looking at you, you just look at a thing and then do you know a tap of your fingers and you've clicked on it? There's no cursor to move where you're looking is the cursor essentially that I, I picked it up so fast because it's so intuitive to realize, like, I look, I click, you know, you hold your click gesture and you move side to side, you're swiping, you hold that click gesture and you move up and down.

You are, you're, you're you're scrolling and that all felt really natural. And the one that I, I, I keep thinking about, and I I I wish I could do again, is there's a little indicator at the bottom of every window when you're in this shared space with apps running and windows open. And it looks like the indicator at the bottom of the iPhone, it's that little rec white rectangle. And on vision Pro, you look at it and then you, and then you grab it essentially by putting your, your finger and thumb together, at which point, if you, if you hold onto it, you can just pick it up and move it anywhere in the space. You can move it to the right, move it to the left, push it back, pull it forward, and then you just let go. And that's where it stays.

And it felt completely natural. The idea that you can just reach out essentially and grab a window and just move it where you want it to go. They really nailed the interactions. I mean, you could tell that this is Apple Human Interaction designers working for years to try to find the right way to get this thing to feel natural and also use kind of our, our tapping and swiping skills that we've picked up over the last 15 years with the iPhone. I think they did a really great job. There are lots of questions, I think to be had about like, who wants this? Will people buy it? Will they buy it eventually? What are the use cases? I think that's all fair. But as a pure bit of computer technology, it's just very impressive. It, it, it is remarkable how good it felt.

And this is a, I know it's a canned kind of demo. It's only the stuff that they've got working and they're six months away from release. But I couldn't, I mean, it felt like an incredibly thoughtful product that was you know, using all the parts of Apple that we kind of recognize as, as making interesting products. It's all in here, whether people want it or not open to question, but like I was, I I came away super impressed with not just the hardware but like the whole user interface and the software is very good.

Mikah Sargent (00:35:21):
Nice. Well Jason, I wanna thank you so much for taking some time to join us today to talk about this. It is always a pleasure to kind of get to hear people talk about their experiences with it, cuz I really do think that adds to it. Everyone should head over to six to check out your whole review and or at least first look at this and, and kind of get into the nitty gritty details. Is there a place where folks should go to follow you online or perhaps anything else you'd like to promote?

Jason Snell (00:35:50):
Yeah, I would say the Upgrade podcast. Oh, there we go. We got it. <Laugh> the upgrade podcast at Real, A fm relay fm relay fm slash upgrade. We've got a post keynote episode up now and then next week we'll be recording. And my co-host Mike currently and I both used the vision Pro this week, so we will have some really deep hands-on thoughts hopefully about that next Monday.

Mikah Sargent (00:36:10):
Awesome. Thank you so much Jason, we appreciate it. Thanks. Bye-bye. All right. Up next, we take another look at the Dyson Zone wearable air purifier. But first, this episode of Tech News Weekly is brought to you by a c i Learning and we love aci I learning here at twit. Now, IT PRO has provided our listeners with engaging and entertaining IT training for the last decade. Now as part of a c I learning IT Pro and ACI I learning are elevating, they're highly entertaining bingeable short format content with over 7,000 hours to choose from and new episodes added daily. A C I Learning provides world class service from assisting you in choosing which learning path suits you best, all the way through to helping you find the right career opportunity. You can fortify your expertise with access to self-paced IT training videos, interactive practice labs and certification practice tests.

Life gets busy quickly. Learn the way that works for you at home, at work, or on the go. You can check out ACI Learnings Practice Labs where you can test and experiment before deploying new apps or updates, all without compromising your live system. You can try out your skills on Virtual Machine Labs with multiple instances of Windows server and desktop clients on your Mac OS Linux iOS device, and on the Windows platform you can take and retake Practice IT certification tests so you're confident when you sit for the actual exam. A c I Learning brings you IT practice exam questions from Microsoft CompTIA, C Council, P m I and many more. You can focus on your future with a c i learning because it's with you every step of the way to help you choose the best certifications for your needs. The most popular courses from ACI Learning include Microsoft Azure Administrator CompTIA CISA plus Security Plus and a plus accredited I T I L four Foundation, Cisco ccna, C I S S P, that's Certified Information System Security Professional and so much more. Learn more about a c i learnings premium training options across audit IT and cybersecurity slash twit. For individuals. Use Code TWIT 30 for 30% off a standard or premium individual IT pro membership. That's go dot aci And of course, we thank ACI learning for bringing this episode of Tech News Weekly to all of you. Thank you for your support ACI learning. All right, we are back from the break, and that means it's time for Jason Howells next interview.

Jason Howell (00:38:55):
All right, so I will admit that I've been having some flashbacks this week reading the news of the horrible air quality that's hitting New York, the New York area, and New York City with the wildfires that are raging in Canada here in California. I mean, we've, we've talked about it on this network a number of times because in the handful, the last handful of years we've had a number of these kinds of experiences. Needless to say, it's horrible <laugh>, I feel for anyone suffering through this air quality event right now. If you thought that technology could save you in the event of this kind of air quality event I hate to tell you it might not be <laugh>, you're saving grace. You might have to look elsewhere. But Victoria's Song from the Verge last month actually reviewed the Dyson Air or the, sorry, the Dyson Zone air mask this week had a real reason to use it, <laugh> with to kind of follow up on the review. So Victoria joins me now from New York. Welcome, Victoria. It's good to have you here.

Victoria Song (00:39:58):
Hi. Thanks for having me.

Jason Howell (00:40:01):
You bet. And I've, I will admit like the, there was a photo that you put on the verge that caught my eye immediately of you outside in New York with the air quality as horrible as it was wearing this, this air mask, the Dyson zone. So it caught my attention. I was like, we gotta talk to Victoria about this. There it is. <Laugh>. There it

Victoria Song (00:40:23):
Is. That was me. So yeah, that's

Mikah Sargent (00:40:26):

Jason Howell (00:40:26):
We get into kind of the, the immediacy of the application of this device. First, you know, how, well, I guess first things first, how are you doing considering that the air quality is so bad, aside from all the technology implications, like are you pretty protected from it in your home? How are things going?

Victoria Song (00:40:46):
It's really funny because I tend to go heads down in my work a lot. So I'll like look up and be like, oh, time to eat. And then I literally did that yesterday and I looked outside and I was like, why is it orange? Oh my God, it's orange outside. What? And then I, you know, started looking in slack and going on my phone. I was like, oh, you know, I should break out this Dyson thing and go out and say, you know, I went out and I did some minit testing that I didn't get to do when the weather was very nice, like two, like a month and a half ago when I was originally reviewing this thing. But, you know, I went outside and I was like, oh my God, this is awful. This genuinely sucks. There's like firetrucks and ambulance sirens going off left and right.

I feel like the world is ending. It smells bad. And you know, like I actually was only out there for about 20 minutes because, you know, my editors gave me a stern talking to where they were like, yeah, don't die for content. And I was like, oh, I, they care. But at the same time, <laugh>, I was like, you know, like it's who if, if not me then who? But you know, I was out there for 20 minutes and I had a headache for two and a half hours afterwards. I was like, ah, my God, this is horrible. I'm never going outside again. Which is on the one hand easy cuz I'm an introvert on the other hand hard because I do a lot of running. So I was just very, I was actually kind of miffed at the air. Yeah. I was like, you know, I'm, I'm a runner and I, I don't do treadmills unless I'm reviewing one. So thanks <laugh>

Jason Howell (00:42:20):
<Laugh>. Yeah, it's, it's a very like post-apocalyptic feeling going outside when it's covered in that kind of heavy smoke and you feel it in your lungs. Like I, I I feel for you. Like I am, I'm so aware of how much that sucks that that environmental impact sucks. So before we get into kind of how this mask, you know, how you've tested this mask with the current situation happening, let's talk a little bit about your original review. Of course, you reviewed this back in April. What what exactly is it, was it created with this kind of event in mind? I mean, obviously it comes post covid, so maybe that's more what it had in mind, but kinda what are your thoughts there?

Victoria Song (00:43:06):
So, you know, I think those are all logical like assumptions to make based looking on it and then thinking about what Dyson does and the current situations that we're in. But actually it's none of those things. This is primarily first and foremost a pair of noise canceling headphones, <laugh>, and then Dyson. And then Dyson was just like, Hey, you know, like we have a lot of air purification technology, which, you know, they do, they're air purifier, very nice looking piece of technology. Let's, what, what, what would happen if we miniaturized it and what if, what, what if it could be wearable? So they spent a lot of time actually developing it and it just turned out to be a device. Whereas I like headphones, but what if we had a detachable visor, magnetic detachable visor that you stuck on your face and it would blow clean air into your face.

And so, you know, we're in the, in like kind of the aftermath of the pandemic, covid still around, but still a pandemic you know, like that weird liminal space. So this comes out and you know, you're like, oh, well it's a mask, right? So it should filter four viruses, right? Absolutely not. It does not, because the visor doesn't actually create a seal with your face at all. It, there's like a space between the visor and your mouth and it's also blowing air. So as far as like protection from viruses and microscopic particles getting into your nose and making you sick it's actually not gonna do that job. N 90 mask will, will, will do that better. <Laugh>

Jason Howell (00:44:35):
That is okay, you called it absurd an absurd wearable in your title. And that's mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, the, the word that keeps kind of reverberating in my mind, who <laugh>, I'm so confused. Who <laugh> who asked for these two things to be combined into what? Like, it's not like chocolate and peanut butter, it's not an obvious combo. Or maybe that wasn't an obvious combo at one time, but these two things together don't necessarily make a whole lot of sense. And it's not an inexpensive device either. It's, it's like a almost a thousand dollars, right?

Victoria Song (00:45:06):
Yeah, it's $949. So let's round it up to an even nine 50. But yeah, it's, it is an interesting question, right? Like who asked for their headphones to purify their air? Literally no one, but people are asking for two separate things at the same time. They are asking for really good noise canceling and they are, you know, in some parts of the world you know, California, you guys have experience with this, and now I have my first experience with this wildfire smoke, you know? Yeah. So it's like clean air I think is becoming more of a concern to people. But you know, in Asia I have relatives and in Korea they're always just like, ah, this smog from China is blowing over the air is terrible. So, you know, it's been a problem for a really long time where people do not necessarily have clean air to breathe and you know, you're going outside an N 95 mask.

We all know what that feels like now, right? It's not necessarily the easiest to breathe in. And when you think about pollution in the air, that definitely has a effect on you long term over time. So they're not wrong in identifying that as a need that people have. They've just been like, we're Dyson. We love to over-engineer things. So yeah. You know, it's like, you know, they kind of asked like, should we do this? You know, like that qu that that like classic question of they asked if they should, but they did. I don't know if they asked if they could, but they didn't ask if they should. Right. I think they did the, the review the reverse of that here. They were like, should we do this? Yeah. Can we do this? Let's find out. And so you, like, if you look back at the prototype images of the Dyson zone, it's wild. You have to like wear a backpack and it's very hard. So like from a hardware standpoint, this is a very impressive device. There are certain things about it where it's just like, oh my God, that's so thoughtful. And then there are other things about it where you're like, have you gone outside lately? Do you know what people are like? <Laugh>.

Jason Howell (00:47:04):
Yeah. And I mean, I, I think that's where I'm, I'm super puzzled because especially in the mindset where we are now, you know, there's post pandemic. So our, the majority, at least here in the us the majority of Americans experience with wearing a mask is I wear this mask to protect myself from virus, or now I wear this mask to protect myself from heavily polluted air or smoke in the air. I don't wanna breathe particulates yet, this device. So, so when those people then look at a device like this, the logical assumption is this is a tech device that will replace the, the reasons that I've needed to use a mask in the last two to three years of my life. The reality is it does neither of those things because it's not sealed. Nope. It's just basically pumping clean air, kind of in your general face area. <Laugh>, right? Yeah. So it doesn't, like how effective was this when you wore it outside? I have to imagine it did very little if not nothing.

Victoria Song (00:48:02):
So there is a air quality tracking component to these things. They do have sensors so you can kind of see the air quality in your area. Like there's a huge like asterisk with, with me talking about that. But in terms of my general experience walking outside with it, so, you know, my, my husband wouldn't let me out of the house unless I agreed to wear an N 95 mask while testing this thing. So, you know, when I wore it with the mask, you don't feel the air blowing on you. I had it blowing at like the highest setting possible and I didn't feel any clean pure air coming in my face. So in that instance you're like, okay, so there's no point, right? So then, you know my husband will never find out, but there was a few minutes where I took the mask off the N 95 mask off, and I don't recommend anybody do that.

That's not like I did this for the blog and because who, if not me, then who? But <laugh>, I, I took it off and I was like, oh, you know, walking around on this, I do feel the clean air in my face. I do feel that it's cooler. I do feel that it's fresher. Like when you have such polluted air around you the contrast of clean, purified air, it's quite noticeable. However, there is no seal. So I'm still sniffing the horrible burning smell. I'm still like, my eyes are still watering, my throat is still iter irritated. So like in this context, you're kind of thinking about it like, okay, well it just makes it slightly worse. Kind of

Jason Howell (00:49:34):
<Laugh> there, there's your tagline for this device. It just makes things slightly worse or slightly better depending on the perspective. Yeah,

Victoria Song (00:49:43):
Yeah. But there is some, like, there is so, it's so complicated because, you know, I think my biggest issue, you know, like I had those thoughts after I went out and I did my little test and I thought about it. But my biggest issue actually was within the app itself because I was walking out there and it will live track, air quality, right? So I'm going out there and I'm looking at this thing and I'm like, ha ha, this is gonna tell me that the air is crappy, right? No, it tells me the air was great. It told me the air was good that the, the quality was fine. And then Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's what the, the, the little live tracking graph shows you <laugh>. And so in the moment I'm experiencing my first wildfire smoke, my first dystopia, like this is my first taste of being a dystopian video game character wearing this that makes me look like Diva from Overwatch or like Bain. Yes. Those are the two I get Diva or Bain. So, you know, I'm wearing that. I'm getting, I'm actually getting funny looks out in the, this Apocalypse Hellscape and I was like, what are you looking at? I, I fit in like this, this is like the most I've ever fit in wearing this thing anywhere. Yeah. So, you know, right.

Jason Howell (00:50:49):
It's, it's not now when, right, like this is the moment for a mask like this. Yeah,

Victoria Song (00:50:54):
<Laugh>. Absolutely. But you know, like I'm feeling all the things at once. I, I am at like a health tech journalist. I do science reporting. I report on wearables. I know like the ins and outs of this product. So I totally forgot until like maybe 15 minutes in to my little jaunt around the, the hellscape that like, this thing only tracks nitrogen dioxide in terms of like pollutants and now nitrogen dioxide, it, it is, it's basically something that you're most likely gonna see in a city from fuel combustion. So like car exhaust fumes, like that sort of thing. It's bad for your health, but you know, it's only measuring for concentrations of basically nitrogen dioxide. It's not measuring for all of the crap that's in wildfire smoke. And you have PM 2.5 particulates. You have pm 10 particulates, which you know, refers to the size of the pollutants.

And the thing about wildfires, and I'm sure you know cuz you're from California, but this was a learning experience for me, but it's basically like, you know, you have natural and organic pollutants from, you know, nature burning as it, as it does in this situation. But then as these fires spread, they also start to destroy manmade structures and those manmade chemicals also get released into the air. So it's really just kind of a mix of things. And it doesn't mean that there's no nitrogen dioxide that you're breathing in. It just means that the concentration around me at a specific point in time that I was walking around was not necessarily bad. And within the app itself, it does tell you that it's unhealthy, but the way the UX is, is you kind of have to swipe down to see that information, to see the PM 2.5, the PM 10 thing, and to see the air quality index into these, like, if I said in very big letters, very unhealthy.

And I was like, well, thank you. But that's not like just the way the app is designed. You know, a lot of people are not gonna go and read the educational text within an app because who has the time? Who has the time? Me, I get paid to do it, so I have the time. But you know, most people are not necessarily gonna swipe down to look for that information. Like, it's there, you could see it, but I think the impulse is to pull out the app and go like, what's the air quality? Good. I'm good. So it's, it's telling you like it's good for nitrogen dioxide and

Jason Howell (00:53:15):
That's it. Is that one thing, boy. Yeah. Okay. Can see a lot of ways in which this device can be, can be improved. <Laugh>.

Victoria Song (00:53:23):
Well, you know, it a first generation concept. I, I, I like to think of it as a concept device that they're saying like, here's what we can do with the engineering. Is it practical? I mean, like, Dyson would never say it's not practical, but I mean, come on. Like, realistically speaking, I've structured my review, which is basically like a little diary of what my week wearing. It was like, I structured it that way because does anyone really want to know the specs of this thing? No. They wanna know what it's like to actually wear this kind of futuristic weirdo device and like what it actually means for like, this type of technology and how we're going to use these things going into the future. It's not a thing that the average person is gonna buy and it, but it does raise a lot of questions about how we use these devices. Like I sat on a New York City train while reviewing this thing, wearing this device, and I've never felt more ignored and more stared at in my life simultaneously. It's just, it was an experience

Jason Howell (00:54:22):
<Laugh>. I can only imagine. I can only imagine. Well, thanks for doing what many other people would not dare try to do, doing it in the name of journalism, and we appreciate it. Victoria Song writes for the Verge, and actually, you have an article coming out later today that expands on your experience in New York with this device. Is that right?

Victoria Song (00:54:42):
Yes. It'll, it'll try to do it quickly, but I'm a windbag so it's going up sometime today whenever my editors are done with it. Yeah, we have that

Jason Howell (00:54:52):
Right on. Everybody should check it out. Victoria, it's been a pleasure talking with you. I have to imagine if asked, which would you rather put on your face, the Dyson device or the Apple vision Pro? I, I think I know the answer, but real quick, what's your answer?

Victoria Song (00:55:07):
I'm just gonna say the Vision Pro because I haven't tried it yet. That's the only reason. Like, fair enough. Like as, as far as like, something that I would actually use in my daily life, more likely it would be the Dyson because it's actually a functional pair of, you know, noise canceling headphones and it does noise canceling really, really, really well. It's just the, the combination of it is interesting. <Laugh>.

Jason Howell (00:55:31):
Yeah. You can't help but focus on the other thing. I think Victoria, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking time with us today. We appreciate it.

Victoria Song (00:55:38):
Thanks for having me.

Jason Howell (00:55:40):
All right. We'll talk to you soon. Take care. All right. Coming up Micah's story of the week, that's up next. But first let's take a moment. Thank the sponsor of this episode of Tech News Weekly, and that is Collide. Collide is a device trust solution that ensures unsecured devices can't access your apps. Collide actually has some really big news. If you're an Octa user, collide can get your entire fleet to 100% compliance. Collide patches, one of the major holes in zero Trust architecture, that's device compliance. So when you really think about it, your identity provider only lets known devices log into apps. But just because a device is known doesn't actually mean it's secure or that it's in a secure state. In fact, plenty of your devices in your fleet probably shouldn't be trusted at all. Maybe they're running an out of date OS version.

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Mikah Sargent (00:58:12):
Yeah, so we talked, I think it was while you were out, if I remember correctly I'd spoke with someone who was able to try out, and I'm trying to go back. There we go. Steven Shanklin from cnet mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative> talked to me about Photoshop's new generative AI tool. And it is kind of a whole new system that lets you create photos that you can then add stuff to. And along with that is as a whole Adobe Firefly, which is kind of the, the blanket terminology for all of the generative AI magic that Adobe is doing. Along with that came the, the conversation that I think always comes up regarding AI tools, but particularly with Adobe, because they are and have long been champions of create creative folks. I mean, they help to enable an entire industry of creatives.

So because of the question came up of, well, is this good for Adobe to be getting into generative ai because it has long been considered a or not, I shouldn't say long been, but since it's introduction it has long, it has been considered a means of potentially taking taking the work of artists and repurposing it and therefore kind of stealing the work of artists. Well, Adobe, you know, to come out with this tool then kind of flew in the face of that. And so I actually asked Steven Shanklin about this. And Adobe is being obviously very careful about how it has made its generative AI tools. And also the Firefly model itself, according to this fast company piece it's trained on stock images, which Adobe already has the rights to. So basically anything in Adobe's stock library is part of it, as well as openly licensed content.

So creative commons licenses, and then of course public domain content. So all of that is what Adobe has used to create Adobe Firefly. There's no usage of art that is online, that is not part of the public domain or that is not licensed properly. And that then results in you know, the argument that this stuff was available was out there and can be used. Now, here's what makes this I think, far more interesting. There's been a conversation and a lot of back and forth about different companies offering licensing, offering paid services, offering all this stuff. Because what if I am a I, I make a magazine, right? I'm a magazine publisher, and I as part of the layout of the magazine use a an image that was created with generative ai. And so when I do that I publish my magazine and it goes out there and some artist out there that just so happens to have the same sort of design language sees the magazine that I published and decides to sue me and says that either I've directly stolen their work or then, you know, it comes out that I used AI to do it.

And then they say, well, you stole it because you used ai, which stole it. That was, that's been the concern. That's why we've seen some kind of interesting licensing when it comes to stock photo services. And Adobe obviously offering this needs to make sure that it's got all of its ducks in a row so they feel they do or it feels, it does have all its ducks in a row because if folks are using the what is the, the term, the sort of corporate version, the enterprise version of Adobe Firefly.

Adobe says, we will cover any legal bills related to your you know, potential for being sued for copyright violation. We are so certain that we can prove that there's no copyright violation involved with our tool, that if something does come up, we will pay the bill because there's nothing to worry about. That's huge. That's huge. And what I think this does, I think that more than anything, what this shows is Adobe and Adobe's lawyers have everything that they need already figured out, right? They can show very easily, very clearly, this is how this model was trained. Here's how you should understand what that means. There's not even a reason to have a lawsuit in this case. You know, it's not, I, this is not Adobe preparing to use whatever funds it has available to pay for a bunch of lawsuits. It doesn't think that it's gonna get to that in the first place.

And this is its way of signaling that. And I think it's smart on Adobe's part because I know there are a lot of companies out there like that magazine publishing company I made up earlier that do have concerns. Well, yeah, it would be great if we could use generative art in the stuff that we're doing, but I'm worried about what that could mean for my business if somebody decides to come along and sue us. So Adobe's saying, go forth and create, you need worry. We've got it all figured out. And I think that that's what kind of makes this rather magnificent that they have somehow found out how to do this. The company has said that according to this fast company piece, you know, there's money set aside if that should arise. But again, it's more about the fact that they don't feel that it's going to happen.

It, I'll, I'll quote a little bit from the piece says, when we control it against stock images, it's as good or better in terms of field compliance and IP checks. We feel very good. This is totally and completely commercially safe. I mean, risk is never zero, hence why we offer indemnification. So, you know, there, there could be somebody somewhere who accuses, but more than anything else, they're going, we know how this works. We know that it'll pass these checks. We know that if it doesn't pass these checks, we can prove that we've only trained it on this set of data. So it's good to go. So yeah, I'm curious if we'll see other companies that are creating generative ai art or stock photos or what have you. Also not necessarily putting their money where their mouth is fully like this, but working in those kind of guarantees that at the very least we have proof that shows that where our data is trained does not run contrary to any copyright laws and, and that there's not concern for infringement in any of this.

I think that makes it a, a tool that we're gonna see even more used mm-hmm. <Affirmative> on that level, you know, individually a lot of people are using it, they don't need to have that concern. But to see it being used on that level I think is, is now potentially opening up even more, especially given how Adobe kind of bakes everything in. And it, you know, there, there are lots of fields where there are dozens and dozens of different tools that people use, but particularly when it comes to graphic design illustration and print work, there's, there are very few tools out there that sort of reach the level that Adobe does in its tools. And so because of that, you know, that this is sort of industry change and industry signaling that people can sort of feel comfortable using these tools and not have that concern. Yeah.

Jason Howell (01:06:50):
Yeah. I'm curious to know. So if, if the, the data set that's, that these that the system is trained from is from Adobe's own stock images. So there's obviously no, you know, potential litigation coming from that cuz it's Adobe's products, Adobe's stock images, so nothing, no threat there as well as openly licensed content. So creative commons images and public domain content. If it's truly creative commons and it's truly public domain, then, then does the I guess where, where my brain is, is I'm trying to find, I understand where the actual threat of lawsuit comes from then because

Mikah Sargent (01:07:33):
I think that yeah, it right, that should be enough, right? That should keep you from that be enough, right? But I think that it ends up not being enough because there's the human element involved If

Jason Howell (01:07:44):
People have different interpretations of what those things mean or something. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (01:07:48):
Well, not even that, but let's think about, okay, so I'm an artist and I exclusively make art with different colored triangles, right? So I've got all of my photos, all of my stuff is always these tiny little triangles that come in different colors. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and over time I've built a name for myself. All of my work is copyrighted. I you know, have it available for sale. But 150 years ago, some artist in in Europe also happens to use triangles and colors in their piece. And it is public domain because it's long been expired. And so it gets scooped up into Firefly. Now I see that I'm not aware of that artist from 150, 200 years ago and I bring a lawsuit now it comes down to Adobe or, well, in this case, you know, before it would be that company having to go and find that there was an artist 150 years ago and proving that I'm not the first person to have that id, that idea.

So I think that because ultimately everything just repeats itself. There is an opportunity for what may look like copyright infringement to not be copyright infringement, but it's still going to get to the place of a lawsuit, you know, or potentially get to that place of a lawsuit. And that's where the discovery process happens. So yeah, I think for the most part, this will shut down. There will probably be, you know, the good lawyers out there who are not just trying to drain money would tell their artist clients, look, they're pulling from these three places. They're going to prove that every time. There's no reason to do a lawsuit for this, but maybe some folks who just wanna suck the money out will go, yeah, let's go to court. Let's try to, to prove that this is copyright infringement. Turns out no, it was a Moroccan artist from, you know, 50 years ago.

Jason Howell (01:09:43):
Right, right. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah, I, I think it's great for Adobe to put their money where their mouth is as far as this is concerned, cuz they're gonna be, you know, more and more as awareness grows around these tools and the potential threats and, and in using these types of tools for something like lawsuits and, and also kind of the ethical considerations. Cuz I think there are a lot of people that use these tools that want to use them ethically or want to know that, that they're produced with with this sort of thinking in mind. As all that stuff becomes more and more prevalent, things like this are gonna be necessary. Cuz you know, I'm, I'm sure Adobe wants people to actually use its products. I mean, I look at, at generative AI and, and Photoshop and Adobe's tools in general, and I'm just like, man, what a, what a match made in heaven.

Like, Adobe's gotta be so over the moon about what this opens, this sort of thing opens up for them. Even just looking at the example animated giff, if you go to the Fast Company article, there's this animated giff of, you know basically copying this portion of a poodle's hair and then very easily, you know, giving that poodle an afro essentially who with the hair? Yeah. Right. It's like poofy Afro. And just think to think about what that would've taken prior that would've taken someone, obviously an artist with a lot of knowledge on how to like nip and tuck and make and fit it in and use the right tools and everything. And I, when I look at that, I don't look at that as, oh, you're putting that artist out of business. I look at that as the tool just got better so that artist can do more now that artist can

Mikah Sargent (01:11:26):

Jason Howell (01:11:27):
Can expand out in ways that maybe they were time crunched before mm-hmm. <Affirmative> because they had to do all this little work. Now they don't have to do that little work. So where can they spend that time next? And Adobe's just in a really great position here, so they want people to use the tools assurances like this are gonna help with that. And I think that's great. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (01:11:48):
Yeah. Absolutely. I we're seeing it grow all over the place. This is, yeah. You know, even Apple, who on stage did not really use the term AI or artificial intelligence, they really like machine learning as their sort of go-to set of words or phrase I guess. Right. But so many of the things that were announced at wwdc, cuz that's the time when all the new software is announced is backed by machine learning. And in fact the, there, the autocorrect system has been completely redone from the ground up using what's called a transformer model, which is akin to is in the same sort of family as direct family, I guess as these generative AI models that will in theory massively improve folks experience with autocorrect. So it's, it's all over the place. But I think where this is so important is, you know, that there were companies who were their lawyers were going you had better and you know, talking to the CEO O you had better instruct all of the artists we have on staff never to use those generative AI tools.

Oh yeah. Cause if they do, you know, we need to dis we need a feature to just disable those. We can't risk da da da da. So Adobe almost certainly heard from companies saying something along those lines and New knows that they have to make it so that people can feel comfortable using these tools and speeding up the process and continuing to be a value to the folks who pay the sometimes ridiculous prices of Adobe, well, I shouldn't say ridiculous, it's, you know but, but the, the high prices. Yeah. Costly, costly subscriptions to Adobe.

Jason Howell (01:13:41):
Yeah. I think you absolutely nailed it because we're, we're also seeing that from a lot of other companies like in relation to chat, G P T, all these companies basically say, Nope, don't use chat G P T, there's too much, you know, too much liability, too much this, too much thought. So

Mikah Sargent (01:13:54):
Yeah. And they don't want, and Adobe

Jason Howell (01:13:56):
Is, Adobe is a brand that is everywhere and, you know, <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> and is dependent. I mean, many large businesses and corporations are dependent on Adobe's software and Adobe's business model is dependent on them too. So they've gotta make

Mikah Sargent (01:14:12):
These Yeah, you're right. Yeah. It, it's sort of back and forth there. So yeah, it's gotta balance it out. Alright. That, that's my story of the week.

Jason Howell (01:14:21):
Right on. Good stuff. All right, well, we've reached the end of this episode, tech News Weekly. We do the show every Thursday, That is the handy website. If you enter into your URL bar of your favorite web browser, those letters in succession, it will take you to our website where you can click a button and subscribe to our podcast. Because at the end of the day, that's the most important thing. Go there, subscribe, get our episodes without without having to jump through hoops in order to make it happen. Subscribing gets it to you automatically. It sends signals to our sponsors to tell them, Hey, people are listening and that's good for business. So we appreciate when you do that. Twit tv slash t n w

Mikah Sargent (01:15:04):
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Check me out later today. If you're a Club TWI member for Hands on Mac, I'm currently covering Windows Management on the Mac as well as on Sundays where you can watch Leo Laport and I cover the questions that you have live on air for Ask the Tech guys. Folks call in. They have their various tech problems that they need, you know, some sort of support with, and we do our best to help you out with that. And also check out iOS today on Tuesdays which I record with Rosemary Orchard. We have a lot of fun covering all of Apple's platforms. Jason Howell, what about you?

Jason Howell (01:18:14):
Well, at Jason Howell on Twitter, Jason Howell, there's all about Android. Every Tuesday, tweet tv slash a a a, if you like Android or if you're just curious about Android, then you can check out that show. Actually, this week I reviewed the Pixel seven a, the latest a series phone, which is kind of like Google's mid-range, even though this is $500. And the premium, the, the Pixel seven, the next step up is $600. So they're only a hundred dollars difference now. They're so, they're so within the same range at this point. Little bits of differences. But anyways, I talk all about that in my review on this week's episode from Tuesday, a a thanks to everybody at the studio who help us do this show each and every week. John Ashley John Lenina, sometimes Burke definitely Burke behind the scenes doing testing of the, of the guests and everything. Everybody helps us do this show each and every week. Couldn't do it without them, and we couldn't do it without you watching and listening each and every week. So thank you for doing that, and we'll see you next time on Tech News Weekly. Bye everybody.

Mikah Sargent (01:19:21):

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