MacBreak Weekly 895 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

0:00:00 - Leo Laporte
It's time for MacBreak Weekly. Alex is here, Andy is here, Jason is here. We're gonna talk about how Apple gets that Space Black MacBook so dark, the pause to SquashBugs and iOS 18 and Mac OS 15, and how nothing will bring iMessage to Android. It's not what you think. It's all coming up next on MacBreak Weekly. This is MacBreak Weekly Episode 895, recorded Tuesday, November 14th 2023. Berkeley Blue and Oaf Tobar.

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It's time for MacBreak Weekly, the show. We cover the latest news from the Apple Sauce or the Chocolate Factory or whoever it is we're talking about. It's time for us to say hello to my friend, Alex Lindsey, who is here from Office Hours. You're going to be on Twitter on Sunday too, thank you, yeah, I'm excited I'm going away and I'm being put away, and Dervindra Hardware will be hosting with you and some other great people. It should be a lot of fun. Yeah, Thank you, Alex. I'm also here from WG BH in Boston, Mr Andy and Nacko. Hello Ann. Oh, I like the scarf. Are you Dr who today?

0:02:17 - Andy Ihnatko
Oh, you're close. I'm not, you're so close. I don't even want to spoil it, because I'm sure there are people watching who know exactly what this scarf is from, because it is a very specific scarf that I. It is for a cosplay that I didn't get around to, but the next time I go to the opera on like Halloween, I'm wearing this costume. It's a great scarf. It is a great scarf.

0:02:37 - Leo Laporte
It was unexpectedly a great scarf Yellow, black and white stripes for people listening.

0:02:43 - Andy Ihnatko
It is specifically thin blue stripe. Thin white stripe. Thin blue stripe. Thin yellow stripe. Thick blue stripe. Thin white stripe. Thin blue stripe. Thin yellow stripe, thicker one. And that is specific. And again, I'm sure that some people are screaming at their YouTube.

0:02:58 - Leo Laporte
It looks black on my screen, so that's a navy blue. That's good, so that's important apparently.

0:03:05 - Andy Ihnatko
There was someone. There was for every prop, for every piece of costume, for every piece of pop culture ever. There is a message board somewhere that has had three years for the conversations ending with someone saying not only do I have this on lock, I know where they got it from and I know where we can order them from.

0:03:24 - Leo Laporte
My favorite was watching the succession TV show and the next day they'd talk about yeah, that was an $800 cashmere baseball cap he was wearing. Yeah, things like that, every, every object of wardrobe and set design. Also with us from sixcolorscom, mr Jaysus Snell. Hello, mr Snell.

0:03:43 - Jason Snell
Hello, I like to think that we're the cinnamon on the top of the applesauce, and I do not have a scarf, although I should because it's big game week. So I'll just say over my left shoulder the Stanford acts which the University of California will be once again claiming on Saturday.

0:03:55 - Leo Laporte
How exciting. Only right, only right in the world, the big game, which really probably is only big in the pack 10. Are they even still in the pack 10? It's just big between Cal and Stanford honestly, but we care, we care a lot.

0:04:07 - Jason Snell
It's the most important game of the year for us.

0:04:09 - Leo Laporte
That's all that matters. Where I grew up, the big game was Harvard Yale, which wasn't a big game again for anybody who wasn't in Cambridge or New Haven Michigan probably Well they get these names in like 1905 when they were playing rugby and it's still going on, yeah. How do you still? You still happy with your Max, your M3 Max.

0:04:32 - Jason Snell
Sure, they're still fast. They haven't slowed down this week. Still going great.

0:04:37 - Leo Laporte
I did my review for the streams for the Hands On Tech show. You've got yours now and I love it. The negative, obviously, is insanely overpriced. Well, no, over is the wrong word. It's high priced, it's expensive. It's expensive, but I feel like I bought like a fine.

0:04:56 - Andy Lindsay
It's high priced for how you're using it.

0:04:59 - Leo Laporte
Yeah for me for surfing the web. Ridiculous, but it is feels like having a fine Italian sports car or something. I mean it's just, it's beautiful, it feels nice. I love the color. Yes, it's not exactly black, but it depends on the line. It's pretty dark, though Stephen Robles did a thing where he did all different lights and it just really and you know actually the real place to look as I fix it. Who kind of explained the process they did?

0:05:25 - Jason Snell
some, they did some magnification. When it's just like laying around in your house, it feels it's pretty black, it's gorgeous.

0:05:32 - Andy Ihnatko

0:05:33 - Jason Snell
And I think when when the M1 MacBook Pro came out, I wrote a headline in my review was Mac Pro and your backpack, and I feel like that's basically the story is, yeah, the the Mac's model is expensive, but the the processing power in it. It is something that I think even high end pros doing video or or development or whatever they can use that laptop and it'll do the job. It's that impressive. So you know, but you pay. You pay for that.

0:05:58 - Leo Laporte
And to defend myself against you, alex Lindsey, I will say that I'm doing so things like whisper AI which is what you pointed out actually last week, jason Snell more and more people who aren't doing photogrammetry are still doing stuff that takes a lot of horsepower and whisper you were right, jason, whisper AI really benefits, and I don't think it's just the NPU or the or the neural processor. Mac whisper, you're using Mac. Yeah, yeah. So is it a speech to text thing from from, is it from open?

0:06:31 - Jason Snell
Yeah, it's open AI, yeah, and it's not Mac whispers an app, but you can also just run it on a command line. I have a shortcut that does it, yeah.

0:06:38 - Leo Laporte
Exactly and and I've tried it with the giant model, the three gigabyte model. Actually, to be honest, the base model is very fast and is very accurate, so very. It's it these. We're going to be seeing people do more and more of these things. In fact, I'll show you a chat GPT, gpt. I made in a little bit, go ahead.

0:06:58 - Andy Lindsay
Alex, and even all the diffusion. The diffusion, ai stuff. That is something that, when you start doing it locally, does not get. Yeah, when you, if you want to do it locally and you want to train it and you want it to be very specific, the horsepower does matter Absolutely.

0:07:10 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, the other thing I noticed, which I I regret not getting 128 gigs of RAM, which might sound to you. Really, what did you get? You got 64? 64, which is a lot. But what I've noted and I looked at this on the MacBook Air as well with 24 gigs, which was the max on the air, and Mac OS really likes having as much RAM and will use it like 80% of it right away, and to me that's a really good thing. It means the more you have, the faster the machine will be, because it's taking advantage of it. I don't know if anybody's observed this.

It might just be me.

0:07:50 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, I noticed that that's when one of the buzzing headlines for the past couple weeks about like a Mac world had an article like that, that a Mac pro has a memory problem. It's getting worse than ever and it's at least a. It's at least a point where Apple is now forced to at least say that hey look, r 16,. That there, the windows Windows laptop. 16 gigabytes of RAM is like R eight gigabytes of RAM.

0:08:11 - Leo Laporte
Okay, first of all, that was the marketing department, they were full of it, because that's not true, right, and I don't think the word problem is accurate. I think that's a kind of unsophisticated way of looking at memory. It will use all the memory you've got. It doesn't have to have it, but it will use it, and the more memory it uses, the more it can load into RAM, the faster the machine will be. So what I'm saying is I wish I'd spent and probably was like a thousand bucks more, I don't know how much more, but I wish I'd. I wish I'd maxed out the RAM, because I think Mac OS uses RAM very well. Is what I'm saying. I think it's a very good thing.

0:08:47 - Andy Ihnatko
And that's the classic thing that we're getting. We're getting benefits from the architecture that Apple has used for its motherboards for the past five, six, seven years on the Mac books, but I still can't get around the fact that when this, when, when, when this solid state storage goes bad, I want to be able to swap it out for one that's good, instead of having to buy a whole new board. If I, if I decide that 512 gigs was not enough I'm now I'm doing a lot of video editing I want one terabyte. I wish I could upgrade it when you make it. When you make it and with with RAM, it's like am I going to, am I going to have to basically eat ramen noodles for three months? Because I'm worried that over the five year life of this device, I'm going to wish that I hadn't got, I hadn't bought the eight gig RAM module model and I had gotten something with a lot more to it. It's hard to know what your needs are going to be five years from now, especially when you're budgeting for today.

0:09:34 - Andy Lindsay
And the problem is is that it's on the chip?

0:09:37 - Leo Laporte
So it's not the point you get.

0:09:38 - Andy Lindsay
You get, you got to, you know, but you're the. What you buy for that is so much speed, you know. So not being slowed down by the bus is you know, is is a big and the reality is is that. I mean, if you look at the speed of the internal drive, it is close to what I mean in the old days, what our RAM was like, you know. So it's an incredible amount of of speed. That you know. If you get a beefed up, you know a lot of hard drive space you're getting a lot. That's not very far away. But man, what you you know, having the RAM on the chip does mean that you have to make that decision ahead of time, but the benefits if you're really using it hard is and I'm just saying get as much as you can afford, because you're, because it's not wasted.

0:10:18 - Leo Laporte
See I was thinking, oh 64. Nobody's, I'm never going to see that used. It's such a silly thing. But in fact you know, firefox alone will use 64 gigs of RAM.

0:10:27 - Jason Snell
I mean it, it it and Slack and Discord, but that's fine.

0:10:31 - Leo Laporte
You want the operating system to say you need RAM, have it, you know I'll take it back, it will go snappier. Oh, it makes a big difference. Now I just checked, it's $800 more to go from 64 to 128. That I'm I probably is why I didn't get 128.

0:10:47 - Jason Snell
That's quite a steep jump, but and it's a combination right Of Apple's margins and also the fact that since they have to build those in, they actually have to estimate, like, how many chips to build with one and how many you know packages to build with the other, and it it's complicated. Welding on the SSDs, I think to Andy's point is a little bit, you know, I don't know, I mean, that's that's them. I think maybe doing something that's user hostile in a way that the system and package memory is is is great. I know that a lot of people have been complaining about the 8 gig base and and it's one of those cases where it's this is not new. I find it interesting that there's a new discourse about the 14 inch base model having eight gigs of RAM, because this is just a transfer of our old complaints about that touch bar Macbook pro being so poorly powered.

Actually, apple is afraid of drawing the line higher on price at Macbook pro because I think they've gotten the feedback from the sales channel that some people will only buy a Macbook pro and they will not buy the 1999 base configuration that we used to have of the 14. And so there's always going to be an under specced, under powered, cheaper thing. That's got the word pro in it and the fact is, for a lot of users it's going to be good enough and it yeah, it might get pokey with a lot of Chrome tabs. But I also have heard from like professional developers who are like my company bought me the base model and I was like, well, that's not great. Like I know why the base model exists it's to hit a price point. But like if your company buys it for you and you're a software developer, that's not great.

0:12:18 - Andy Lindsay
Yeah and and but there are. I mean, I definitely have a bunch of Mac minis that are all eight, eight gig Mac minis and they do exactly what they need to do. Yeah and so and they and I have no complaints about it. I'm glad that I had you know, cause I, when I go below that, I start buying PCs. And so the thing is is that I start buying at $300 and $400 and buying PCs because I just have this really low level thing I needed to do and I don't want to pay the $600 or $500 for the Mac mini to do the baseline Mac mini to do that.

I will say, 90% of the time I walk in and I go into Apple, the Apple store, and I go, oh, I'm going to get the base model. I'm like, no, they're $200, will be good, a little more Ram, like before you know, you know, and before you know, you spent $900 instead of $600. And so but but I think that I do think it's important that it's there. I wish that they had one even less powered, that was at three or $400. There's lots of little glue things that I want, always want to do with these computers, that that Apple still sits a little above. You know the ability to do that.

0:13:18 - Leo Laporte
So get the my bottom line from my point of view get the most RAM you can, and even even prioritize it.

0:13:25 - Jason Snell
I would say even prioritize it over space though, because if you're desperate you can add a little. Ssd. It's not great, but you can do it even on a laptop.

0:13:36 - Leo Laporte
It's never do it again, so it's pretty fast. It's not as you just got to duck.

0:13:40 - Jason Snell
You just got to duck, tape it to the back or have a dangling.

0:13:44 - Andy Ihnatko
Well, but when you, when you just but just quickly, when you go to this to the mode of okay, I made a poor choice and not maximizing and not getting a lot of storage, but I'm going to use this simply as a boot drive and I'm going to put all documents storage, all project storage and anything else I can on this external, if you have, I mean 512 gigs as a boot partition is probably going to be adequate. I can't think of many apps that you would be installing on that boot partition that would crowd out and 80%, yeah.

0:14:11 - Andy Lindsay
I mean, my biggest regret of mine is that I did exactly that process with my, my studio. The thing is is that the bus is really limited to about 2200,. 2.2 gigs is about what you're going to get through that bus, you know, to a to a, drive through the cables and everything else is there. The internal was five gigs and I just the number one thing. I, if I had realized that the internal was so much faster, because I had a project where I had, admittedly, six, six K streams that I'm trying to edit and resolve and I could not edit, couldn't even find a way to edit it with external storage, you know like I needed, you know, and so I ended up copying it all, you know, filling like clearing stuff off my drive and copying it all onto the drive, and then it worked perfectly, you know, and I cut, I cut away, and so the thing is, is that that's the problem really is? Is that if you're, if you're doing something that really uses the speed, you're going to want to put as much hard drives, you're going to want as much hard drive space, internal, because it is very much.

I don't know what it is on the, on the laptop, but on the studio it is twice what it is on the desktop Anything external except for the iodine. Iodine makes a one that you plug into all of your. You use up all of your thunderbolts. It passes through. You still get them, but you have to hook them all in there and then the iodine can get to the same speed.

0:15:25 - Andy Ihnatko
And that's an interesting perspective because, like a lot of people myself included like I kind of default to the MacBook Pro chiefly because, like I don't care if it's a little bit thicker, if I get a little bit larger battery, if I get a little bit more of this, a little bit more of that, so I'm not even going to really matter to that sort of stuff. But a lot of people who are like you, who think that the letters PRO actually should substantively mean that this is what I, when I, when I bill at $2,000 an hour, this is going to be suitable for my tasks. So maybe on that basis, when the marketing, when the marketing team goes with the engineering team and decides what should be the base level of RAM and a pro anything, we should not make sure that we do anything that's kind of chintzied has to be at least medium in the in the eyes of the people who are going to be buying this.

0:16:09 - Jason Snell
I, I, I get that as a dream, but you know the reality and we've seen this because that, because of that touch bar, that lousy touch bar, macbook Pro that and there's been a low end outlier model for a long time is there are people who are regular people who will not buy MacBook Air because it's for babies, even though that's dumb and it's great. And there are corporate buyers who will not buy anything that isn't labeled pro because they want a pro system, not a quote consumer system, and it's all outmoded. But it does exist and Apple knows that. They just lose sales if they only because for the last two years the MacBook Pro the real one started at two grand at 1999. And then they had that dumb touch bar model.

Well, the only reason it exists is because some of their buyers are not gonna spend $2,000 on a laptop. They're just not gonna do it. They want that base model. And so there's this push and pull between like pro as a meaningful thing, which is professionals use this, and pro is kind of an aspirational brand. That just means it's nice. And the problem is in that overlap area where a product expect to be an aspirational brand is then handed to a professional and they're told to do their professional job with it. And you know, maybe, maybe not, but I would maintain that eight gigs of RAM, while not ideal, like there are a lot of people who are buying the base system who will not care because the stuff they're doing it doesn't really matter that much and they weren't gonna spend an extra thousand. So it was either this or nothing, I guess, although they probably should have just bought the.

0:17:33 - Leo Laporte
MacBook. Yeah, I heard. The other is I was willing to spend more because it was my money. But when I've been buying these, you know, with Twits money, I've been, you know, more judicious. But I cracked the 401K for this and I thought, well, I'm buying this, I'm gonna treat myself. You know, it's like midlife crisis. You buy a sports car right. The people who drive Jaguars, you know, around, are the old people, not the young men wanted them, but the old guys got them, and so I feel like I got a XKE and I'm pretty happy. But again, I would say, get the extra RAM, by the way, just in case you're listening along and you wanna, you try to keep up with the lenses. Iodine is IODYNE and this is a crazy thing. I'm sure it's incredibly expensive, but this is a hard drive with two, four, six, eight Thunderbolt ports on it.

0:18:31 - Andy Lindsay
Well, it's looping, so it's four. So you take those four Thunderbolts and you plug them into your four outputs on your, let's say, you plug those into your four in your studio in the back and then you can. Now you still have your Thunderbolts. Oh, that's out. So it's in and out, in and out, in and out. They're looping through, so that that way you don't lose your Thunderbolt.

0:18:53 - Leo Laporte

0:18:55 - Andy Lindsay
On the, you don't lose the whole chain. You can still hook other hard drives or devices into it, and this is five gigabytes a second, which is the same as the internal, and it's but an external drive, because it's kind of it's a bandwidth just sharing or something right.

0:19:11 - Leo Laporte
What's it?

0:19:12 - Andy Lindsay
Yes, it's basically.

0:19:13 - Leo Laporte
I mean, it's like a reverse rate, Wow, and then Making that available across all over the place, and then you can get it in 12 terabytes, 24 terabytes or 48 terabytes.

0:19:22 - Andy Lindsay
Cause you know, Cause you know, 28 terabytes in your backpack. You know, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna go to the store.

0:19:29 - Leo Laporte
I just gonna just I'm, I swear to God, I'm just looking.

0:19:34 - Andy Lindsay
Just remember that if you're buying one of these, it's not gonna stick to the wall under a stone. Just remember, Leah, when you're buying, when you're buying one of these, you are, you are truly a pro that needs to have this in the field. You're not? Yeah, yeah.

0:19:48 - Andy Ihnatko
Alex, one question Like will they sell just the case, and like some like sunflower seeds to weigh it down? Cause, if that's all I want, like on my, on the, on the, yeah.

0:19:58 - Leo Laporte
I only have one question Does it come with cables or do I have to buy my own?

0:20:02 - Andy Lindsay
I think it actually comes with cable. I've never used it, I just know of it because I do a lot of research and you can get 12 terabytes for 4,450 bucks.

0:20:11 - Leo Laporte
That's populated, right. I hope you get 24 terabytes. Oh, it's only a little bit more and let's go for it. Or 48 ter. Wait a minute, I'm sorry, I was looking at the wrong number. I was looking at the wrong number, that's. This number when it goes to 24 terabytes is 7,500 bucks. 48 terabytes 617,. It costs more than a gold Apple watch $17,500.

0:20:36 - Andy Lindsay
But you're, you're sitting there at that point. You're sitting on a film set.

0:20:39 - Leo Laporte
Right, you know doing live edits with uncompressed you know it's less than than playing Billy Joel in the office. I mean, you know it's, you might as well go for it. I love that. I'm referring to the stat that you threw out at the beginning of the show.

0:20:55 - Andy Lindsay
Oh, that we were talking about In the office, it was. It was two tickets in paradise Costs oh yeah, $60,000.

0:21:03 - Leo Laporte
It wasn't even Billy Joel, it was Eddie Money.

0:21:06 - Andy Lindsay

0:21:07 - Leo Laporte

0:21:09 - Andy Lindsay
It's not. It's not even that that they played the song. They just had to have Steve Carroll go. I've got two.

0:21:15 - Leo Laporte
Don't stop, I can't afford it.

0:21:17 - Jason Snell
Don't do it.

0:21:18 - Leo Laporte
There goes my pro data iodine Right at the window. So here's the article from Mac fix it I. I got to just props to the Mac fix it folks, kyle, kevin O'Reilly, how Apple made the space black MacBook Pro. And it's not like they got Apple to tell them no, no, what they did is they got a scanning electron microscope or something, and actually they got help from, as one does, from a company called evident, and they looked really closely. They also put Cheeto fingers on it, which is sad, but they used evidence scientific's laser confocal microscope to measure the bump heights on the surface. They're wicked cool.

Oh well, s 51,000 Lexed laser measuring system just does that. And so what they figured out is that they're really doing some complex texturing to the, to the surface, the idea being to diffuse the light that's hitting it, and it's why, when you, jason, pointed straight at the lights, it looks like a kind of almost a light gray, but if you tilt it slightly, not light, but but it's not not a super deep, but yeah, if you're off axis it's a lot darker, which is why you know having it around the house.

0:22:38 - Jason Snell
the fact is, if I leave it on a table and I'm walking by, it looks really black right, because the light is way off angle in that situation. So, yeah, if you're holding it in bright light and staring at it, it doesn't look jet black. It's not piano black or anything like that. But, it's. It's real dark.

0:22:54 - Leo Laporte
It's anti reflective and it's actually great. Now that I know this, I feel like it's even more gorgeous. Thank you, I fix it.

0:23:01 - Jason Snell
They haven't made. They haven't made a black pro laptop. I think I said this last week, since basically the Wall Street era, which is like the right after Steve Jobs, came back and they did those black ones with a little white Apple logo. So it's been a long time.

0:23:14 - Leo Laporte
And I will vouch for the fact that it is. It is better than cause. I have both the midnight. There you go.

0:23:20 - Jason Snell
That's the classic, that's the polycarbonate.

0:23:23 - Leo Laporte
That's beautiful. That was one of my favorite laptops.

0:23:25 - Jason Snell

0:23:26 - Leo Laporte
It looks great. I paid the extra 200 bucks for the plastic. Paint Me too, and so this is different. It's just, you know, when you buy a fancy car or something fancy, an object of art, it's the little things like that that make it feel valuable. Yeah.

0:23:48 - Andy Ihnatko
I mean, part of it is you're buying the experience. So every time, every time in the Apple store era where I've bought like a, I spent like a $2,000 or more for like a MacBook. I shouldn't care that. What happened was before I even got four feet into the store. So when came up and said, oh, are you picking up? I said yeah, oh, great, here's your phone. Great, wait here. Don't go even a foot more into the store, I'm going to get it and bring it out to you and then you can leave as opposed to a sense of, well, I'm coming, I'm spending $2,000.

Another, I'm not that I want to be offered tea and sandwiches, but it's like. It's like. It's like I'm picking up a pizza, really, and they're things, little things like it's. There's a sum total of little things like that, including wow, I don't get a cable with this, or wow, there's actually like a little bit of a scratch in the side of it and you're saying that you're not going to swap it out for me because that's not considered to be a real defect. Once you get into like the certain, certain kinds of rarefied air, you kind of expect that. Look, you don't. I shouldn't walk out of here unhappy about anything that you have that you can possibly have control over, and I think that you have control over the ability to take back this thing that has a tiny little scratch on the side and give me one that's actually perfect.

0:25:01 - Leo Laporte
A little program. By the way, I feel guilty. I'm not boasting, it's not that I just decided to spend the kids inheritance on one last nice laptop and then-.

Tough them up tough them up and actually, and for people who were saying well, I'm not giving you, I'm not joining a club Twitter. If you're going to spend it on stuff like that, it's actually. This is going to be weird saving us money because I'm paying for it, not the company, right? So it's not coming out of anything. You donate to club Twitter. It's my money and I'm the idiot.

0:25:34 - Andy Ihnatko
It means that Leo will not be buying name brand Cheerios in his retirement. He will be going to the bottom shelf and getting the stuff that's in the plastic bag of like happy owes. So don't so take back the complaints. He's he's-. No, I can afford it.

0:25:47 - Leo Laporte
I've saved. I mean, I'm an old man, you know, I'm 67. I have to take my social security in a couple of years I have to and so I've saved over my lifetime which I encourage anybody younger the miracle of compound interest, you know. Take, do that 401K. I've been doing it for my whole career and I have enough money to live on and I thought I can buy myself a treat. So it's just one little treat. I say that because we've been talking a lot about how times are tough on the podcast industry. I keep hearing this from all over and it's one of the reasons. Two years ago we started Club Twit. I won't be sending out beautiful thermal mugs like Mike Hurley to our team. I just I'm glad he's doing well, but we, we, we are, we are facing a crunch. Lisa actually this week is is doing the books, so I hear a lot about this when I go home.

0:26:48 - Jason Snell
A lot of swearing and the dating from the office.

0:26:50 - Andy Ihnatko
And well, if it makes you feel any better, this is, this is like a pre pandemic gift, oh okay, oh, okay, it's, it's. It's a lovely name brand Yeti mug, but this was a pre pandemic gift.

0:27:00 - Leo Laporte
All hey credit to Mike Hurley. We sent out fezzes one year. They probably cost more than that, mark, but I was like you know the, the, the hoodie.

0:27:09 - Andy Ihnatko
The hoodie you sent like 10 years ago is absolutely my go to yeah, there you go. The reason why I turned on the heat, like three weeks later, that I might otherwise do if I were sensible.

0:27:17 - Leo Laporte
You're gonna get a little package of salt. This it's not quite cold. It's the next thing. Next thing up, actually, salt hanks opening his website December 1st, so I'll be running in there and buying each of you. I love that Salt, some salt.

0:27:31 - Andy Ihnatko
That was that was. That was that was thrilled the housewarming gifts that that Mrs Bailey handed out. That's right, it's wonderful have some salt, george.

0:27:40 - Andy Lindsay
His truffle salt is the. I will make it. I will make it magically better, like I will make your, whatever you're making right now, magically better.

0:27:47 - Leo Laporte
You cannot, you cannot buy it in stores or anywhere else. Yet December 1st the website goes live, so don't get your hopes up. Hopes up, but I will be running over there as soon as I can and getting you guys a small gift.

0:28:04 - Andy Ihnatko
Can I? Can I just say that, like, the more you learn about cooking, the more you learn. That's a secret ingredient to everything is more salt and or MSG, it's like not, and they don't taste the salt. They just go, my God, like, have you been marinating this for like what? What? What's secret wine? I said I just put a butt load. I accidentally put too much salt in my hand when I was actually the soup and I didn't want to throw it out, so I dumped it on the. On this I do, I'm sorry.

0:28:30 - Andy Lindsay
What, what. The big mind blowing thing was to learn that for sweet things you put a little salt just a little salt in there.

0:28:35 - Leo Laporte
It's like you try making brownies with that salt. You will not like them.

0:28:39 - Andy Lindsay
In my, in my family, we don't call it salt, we call it muchness, muchness, a little more muchness.

0:28:44 - Jason Snell
Yes, alton Brown, I think, just always said that they flavor enhancer. That's what it does. It doesn't have a flavor, it just makes whatever. Is there more Tastes, more like it?

0:28:53 - Leo Laporte
I heard a French chef once tell Terry Gross on Fresh Air the secret of great cooking is seasoning. And she said what do you mean seasoning? He said salt.

0:29:04 - Andy Lindsay
So I've heard since.

0:29:05 - Leo Laporte
Grae salt, yeah, salt, grae salt. It doesn't. It doesn't matter what color. I think color is seasoning.

The other thing I want to tell people so we are begging, begging you to join Club Twit, please do, because we want to keep as much of this going as we as we possibly can. The other thing I want to say is we heard you, we had turned, we were planning to turn off the live streams and make it club only, and people really like those live streams. It's a small number I think 90% of our audience listens to downloads, but for those of you who like to watch, as we do, the show, we have decided that we can. We actually turns out. There's a button on the TriCaster that we can press that will send the show to the YouTube live channel. So if you do want to continue to watch live, even if you're not in the club, the club can watch in the Discord. That's the other reason the Discord is sometimes not great video. You can also watch on YouTube live and that way you can also watch it on your big screen TVs and so forth.

The difference is we will not turn that on for reruns and we will turn it on only when the show is about to begin, because we want the club members to get the sometimes that banal and sometimes fascinating pre-show and post-show conversations. That will be a club content. Only so we will be. You know, it won't be going all the time, I guess is the point. A lot of times it'll just look like a. What does it look like if it's not going? Just a logo or it's, it's no stream. There is no live stream at all. It's just it's-.

Oh, you just don't even see it.

0:30:33 - John Ashley
No, so it'll show up on YouTube when we're live, but when we're not broadcasting live on YouTube they don't even they don't.

0:30:38 - Leo Laporte
it just does nothing, it just goes away. Yeah, so if you go to youtubecom, slash twit, you can show it and it'll be fun. And then you click the live tab. If we are live, it'll be doing it right.

0:30:52 - John Ashley
Yeah, so if you click on it right now, we'll see ourselves.

0:30:53 - Leo Laporte
Oh, this is it. No, it's the one that left. This one yeah, okay. And now you can see us looking at it. Looking at it. Oh, that's why I was confused.

0:31:01 - John Ashley
So now we're looking at it, now we're looking at it, looking at it, it's gonna go pretty soon.

0:31:04 - Leo Laporte
We're gonna be looking at it, looking at it, looking at it and then-. Let's just leave it looping for a couple of minutes.

Okay. So for a variety of reasons, but mostly cause you begged, you begged. I don't wanna encourage begging. You know they say never give a dog treats at the table cause they'll never stop. So don't consider this a treat at the table. Okay, that was really mean. It came out so rude. I apologize. We decided we thought hey, for at least for the time being we'll keep the live stream going on on twit life. Let me take a little break, we'll come back with more. Actually, I do wanna ask you a little bit more about this Mac book and Jason and the iMac you reviewed as well, right? Sure, did the iMac have? How much RAM did it have it had the weird new?

0:31:51 - Jason Snell
36. I think the one they sent me is 16.

0:31:54 - Leo Laporte
16, okay, yeah, I think so. The M3 does weird multiples of three, not two, right.

0:31:59 - Jason Snell
Only for the Pro Chip. The base and the Macs don't so confusing. They only have two banks of memory, but the Pro Chip has three banks, so you get 18 instead of 16.

0:32:11 - Leo Laporte
While Apple doesn't tell you this, it is LPDDR5 RAM. I mean, it's real RAM, it's not like some special magical. Yeah, it's just in the package. They put it in the package, yeah, but it's not anything else. It's just normal RAM, which may make you ask well, why does your Apple charge $800?

0:32:32 - Jason Snell
We are lucky that they do not brand it Magic RAM, because it would be even more expensive than that.

0:32:36 - Leo Laporte
For 64 more gigs it's $800. Okay, because it's Magic RAM, oh well.

0:32:45 - Jason Snell
It's a plus one.

0:32:46 - Leo Laporte

0:32:46 - Jason Snell
It's got salt you have to attune to it. These are D&D jokes, Anyway. Yeah, it's Magic RAM.

0:32:51 - Andy Ihnatko
Roll for productivity. Yeah, oh, you rolled the two, oh well.

0:32:55 - Jason Snell
It's 2D6 plus five to hit and yeah, you'll do some magic RAM damage.

0:32:59 - Leo Laporte
David Sharp tells me it is in the system information. I didn't know that it says LPDDR5. Our show today. I'll tell you one reason. I wanted more RAM and more CPU because I keep Mylio running all the time in the background.

Mylio I've become such a huge fan of Mylio photos, Mylio. It is the ideal way to organize not just photos but videos and even documents. I have Mylio always keeping an eye on Apple's photos on my Flickr, on my Facebook, on my Insta, on my Google, on all the places I put photos, so it can aggregate them into the key one and only library. And, the best of all, milio doesn't use the cloud. It actually, if you get Mylio Photos Plus, will sync to all my devices, so I have copies of my photos everywhere. Well, I'm happy to say right now, for a limited time, milio is offering a holiday gift bundle. So this is it's always been free to get the first, you know, the first one. Put it on your computer or your phone. But now, with a holiday gift bundle, you get one full year of Mylio Photos Plus, which means you can put it on every device you have and they sync between each other. Plus, you get the easy to use editing software, radiant photo and premium membership to the photographer community platform, view bug. So this becomes suddenly a very juicy bundle.

Mylio Photos recently dropped the year's biggest update huge. They had an event and they said you have to promise not to tell anybody. But now I can talk to you Even more customization, accessibility, options, control on how you handle your digital libraries. It just keeps getting better and better, which is why I love Mylio so much. Mylio Photos Plus offers even more by letting you connect all your devices, take full advantage of the new shared albums and spaces tools, which lets you share your media with customized control and privacy, whether it's at work or with a family. Spaces lets you sort and organize files into subject, specific views, family, work, personal, private and then create those custom spaces for whatever you want, which means you can collaborate with your team or your family members or automatically share photos with them or allow them to, and they just sign in your account. By the way, you don't have to have them have a separate account and they can contribute to it too. And with remote control, you have full control over what's visible and which tools are available on each device connected to your account, no matter who it is.

So I say put Mylio on your thing, it's free. Put it on your computer, sign into my account and now you'll see that shared album with all of our childhood photos. You can add some. If you've got some, I wish you would please add some and then you can edit them and you can do all sorts of stuff. It's a really great way to work with portfolios, to manage project assets, for personal organizations, family sharing.

And because Mylio Photos is free on one device, everybody can use it. You would control also other things in the sync, like you can do, like my phone. I don't have a huge amount of space on the phone, so I have thumbnails. I don't have originals on my phone, but on my desktop I have originals and thumbnail and it will tell you exactly how much space each is gonna use. It's easy to open your editor.

It's got a great editor within it. It does automatic categorization. I can go on and on. So many nice features. It does all of this without going to the cloud, see, so it's doing it on device. So it will categorize your photos. It will do all the face recognition. You have to tell it okay, that's my mom, that's my sister, that's Lisa, and then it will, from then on, go through all the photos. I have more than 200,000 photos in there. I know people have more than 2 million photos in there. It does not slow down, it is super, super fast.

Get your stuff you've been putting on Instagram and Facebook and Flickr. Get it back. Put it in your life, put it in your album. You'll be glad you did share it with work or friends or family. Now get 25% off your first year of Mylio Photos Plus today, for a limited time. Check out the Holiday Gift Bundle for even more great deals. Go to Now this is a new URL, so pay attention., okay. Twit25. That's a 25% discount. Honestly, this is the time do it., which means you can, of course, download and you can tell your friends this too. Download Mylio Photos Plus for free right now. Really kind of amazing what Mylio is doing and it's getting better all the time. And thank goodness because, honestly, all the other companies you just wanna move you to the cloud. Just, we want your photos. I don't wanna give them my photos. We have several sponsors now that have allowed me to pretty much move off of Google entirely Mylio's one of them. All right, let's see what else. Any other thoughts on the Jason said the iMac and the MacBook Pro. For some time now have you continued to use them. Do you have any other thoughts?

0:38:09 - Jason Snell
I'm not using them as much because I'm back here at my desk, but it is.

0:38:14 - Leo Laporte
And you don't wanna get used to it.

0:38:17 - Jason Snell
Well, I certainly don't wanna get used to that M3 Mac because it's just makes I mean honestly working at my M1 Macs Mac Studio. Now it makes me sad sometimes. Where I was, I was doing a video export yesterday and I was like, oh, this would have been a lot faster if I had done it on the laptop, but I didn't.

0:38:32 - Leo Laporte
See, that's why I don't do loaners. I spend my hard earned money because I don't wanna I get to keep it.

I get to put stuff on it and use it for real, and I love it. The other thing I noticed, which is maybe a negative, I think it's a positive Apple has decided that power saving be damned If you need power, we're gonna give you power. So I don't know if you've noticed this, jason, but on my Macs when I play Baldur's Gate, I might get two or three hours of battery life. You really wanna plug it in.

0:39:03 - Jason Snell
Yeah, it'll crank it up if it needs to, although I think some of that is depending on exactly what versions and what APIs. But if they're cranking up the GPUs also, there is that high power mode that you can. I didn't even turn that on, but if all it does is cool out so it can run even faster, yeah, it runs Baldur's Gate at all maxed levels of graphics beautifully without any problem.

0:39:26 - Leo Laporte
It just it kills the battery.

0:39:28 - Jason Snell
It's gonna blow your battery yeah, i-, but that's what it should do.

0:39:30 - Leo Laporte
It should use all 40 GPUs, make it beautiful, that's-.

0:39:33 - Jason Snell
Yeah. I remember when we were talking about Apple's tests before and we were like, well, what are Apple's battery tests? Are they fake? Are they real? They're real, they're absolutely real. But you know, is it true that you could use that laptop and get 20, 22 hours of battery life on it? Yes, is it also true that if you try real hard, you can kill it in a couple of hours? Absolutely, true, absolutely, because it's power saving, you know, and it's trying to save that power for when you need it. But if you need it, it'll give it to you and it'll ran the battery for sure.

0:40:04 - Leo Laporte
Nice. I think that's a proper decision. It seems like it's a different decision. Like the original, macbooks were designed to be a little more power friendly, regardless of what you were doing.

0:40:20 - Jason Snell
Intel processors in general.

0:40:22 - Leo Laporte
They still have this philosophy, it's called SpeedStep on Intel, yes.

0:40:25 - Jason Snell
Yeah, there's a lot where it's just like look, if you're not on battery, we're not gonna even try, Right? Like, because this is too much, and Apple's philosophically, apple's like nope, you get it all, you get all like. Somebody asked me were my tests done with the laptop plugged or unplugged, and my answer was it doesn't matter, the numbers are the same.

0:40:41 - Leo Laporte
That's exactly what I want, but people should know it. I guess it's exactly what I want. Give me all the power all the time and I will be intelligent about. You know what battery life I need, and it certainly will sip battery life as long as you're not running Baldur's Gate or Whisper or other things that really suck horsepower. Intel just announced an i9 that runs at six gigahertz. You know the battery life on that is gonna be nothing, but that's good. You give people a choice. If they want power, they can have power.

And even then, I still think that Apple's very, very parsimonious with its use of juice. It's juice parsimonious, if you know what I mean. All right, moving on. Apple paused, says Mark Bloomberg. They paused development of iOS 18 and Mac OS whatever the next one's gonna be called to make sure that the bugs were gone. They paused work on iOS 18, ipad OS 18, mac OS 15, watch OS 11, just for a week, which puzzled me. It's like, wait a minute, you're just gonna stop for a week and then you're gonna move on. That week was last week.

0:42:06 - Jason Snell
It's their cycle, though. They've got these milestone cycles and apparently they were gonna move on to the next milestone, and essentially what Craig Federighi did was say, whoa, not good enough to move on to the next milestone another week, fixing the bugs and getting this to work better, like, and so that is because Mark talked about in his report.

0:42:25 - Leo Laporte
He explains it yeah.

0:42:27 - Jason Snell
It's four milestones and they kind of alternate between feature ads and then like kind of cleaning it up and integrating it and making it work better. And it sounds like this is one of those moments where normally they would go on to the next milestone and Federighi said no, not good enough, let's wait a week and get the guys with the brooms out here to sweep up after the elephant. That kind of happens.

0:42:47 - Leo Laporte
Haven't done that since iOS 12 to 13, due to quality issues. Mark says there are typically four milestones before WWDC in June, when the company announces the new software and releases beta versions. Each milestone typically lasts six weeks, with four focused on adding features and two dedicated to bug fixing. So what essentially happened was they had three weeks instead dedicated to bug fixing, but that's gonna put them a week behind. In effect, he says, as of right now, the one week stoppage probably won't noticeably postpone the ultimate release of the software. Maybe it'll give them a little less time at the end of the cycle to eliminate last minute glitches.

0:43:26 - Jason Snell
I think it's Might send a message too right, Send a little message about-.

0:43:30 - Leo Laporte
Guys, guys, yeah, no regressions. Federighi in 2019 said he calls it the packed, the packed.

0:43:39 - Jason Snell
I love it.

0:43:41 - Leo Laporte
We will never knowingly allow regressions in the build and when we find them we will fix them quickly. Regressions are bugs added by adding new features or work that you do. Something that was fixed goes bad again and he says we'll never allow it knowingly or we'll fix them when we find them, which is super hard to do Like it's.

0:44:00 - Andy Lindsay
It's a. We seem like a simple little sentence, but it is really hard to add new features without breaking it, because everything's it's like spaghetti, it's all intertwined.

Well, you hope that it's not Like. That's the whole point of avoiding spaghetti code is to have it, you know, clearly commented, you know, clearly, structured, clearly, like there's and it's hard, I mean, when you want to move fast and break things, you oftentimes will like you're trying to figure something out and you can build a lot of things that then are very hard to come back to later. And it takes. And the problem is is that when you're developing those things, it is hard to have the discipline to go back and rewrite it, Like you know, to say, okay, now I'm gonna put it into the, into the piece, and Apple's better at it than most.

But I know when I've worked on dev projects, where we've worked on it, we have to decide like, are we really going back and gonna, like you know, rebuild that code Because we just, you know, we know that we just got? You know you don't want to slow down when you're trying to figure it out, you want to just hack it in there to see what it's looking like. But then you have to have the discipline to pull it back out again and build it properly and come in and structure it and then put it back in again, and that's hard and under under pressure and I can't believe they only stopped for a week, like if you, if you told me the quality was off on something I'd be like, well, we're gonna take a month and we're gonna figure this all out.

0:45:13 - Andy Ihnatko
I think it just goes to show that, something that is absolutely non-obvious and that I have to keep. I have to keep reminding myself of that Apple just is not proven itself to be great at internal multitasking. That you'd think that, wow, they're a $2 trillion company. They might there's. Oh well, let's just throw more money and resources at this until it's fixed. I'm just like, well, no, it's like they have. They have a limited number of work, of human hours, that they can apply in any given week and if they decide that they need to take an extra week, if they need to, if they need to focus on something that's really, really important. That means that a lot of other stuff has to grind to a halt, and so it's. Apple is, I think, is kind of unique here. Maybe just that they're more disciplined or maybe that they're more realistic about how they approach these projects, but it is something that is surprising and frustrating.

0:46:03 - Leo Laporte
I think in the world of engineering it's kind of well-known how to avoid this kind of stuff with functional code, code that's isolated test-driven design. Yeah, yeah.

0:46:18 - Andy Lindsay
It's just really hard to do. It's a lot easier if you're.

0:46:20 - Leo Laporte
I can do it because I'm an individual developer. Patrick Tellahan he's saying I write notes to my future self. Yeah, but when you're working on a team of 1,000 people, it's probably pretty. I can see how it would be, hard to do without a lot of this and just having them.

0:46:33 - Andy Lindsay
That's why you have to pack. And also having everybody do it the same way, or similar ways, like structuring it when you walk into some. There are some companies that when you walk into the bathroom at the, where guys are standing there, there's pictures of how to structure your code Not Apple, it's not an Apple, but it's at other companies, like here's how you might wanna think about doing that and if you might have this problem, here's how to fix it, and so. But a lot of it is having everyone think the same, not the same way. You don't want that, but you want similar ways and approaching the problem, Because if a person, there's two valid paths, but one path may build something that fits into the puzzle well, and another one may not. And so figuring that out and again, we know how to do it, like I know how to do proper naming conventions for my projects. Do I do it all the time? No, sometimes I'm in a rush and I just go generic, underscore, final.

0:47:29 - Leo Laporte
Well don't get in a rush. You wanna know better. That measure twice and cut once.

0:47:36 - Andy Lindsay
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, I know what I should do, but I don't always do it.

0:47:40 - Andy Ihnatko
It reminds me of something that another, like very senior, like development project lead at a very large company not like you, not Apple but told me that we refer to it and this is why we say that we like to raise our own monkeys Because, like, if you try to get monkeys from another monkey house and put them into your monkey house, they're still monkeys but they're.

There's someone else who's monkeys. They need to understand, like, what the smell is in our monkey house. They need to understand outrageous behaviors you can get away with in our monkey house that you can't get away with in other monkey houses. And it's like, oh I, being a former programmer myself, I understand. Being compared to monkeys that way, I don't understand everything.

0:48:19 - Leo Laporte
Code monkey. Now there is more from Mark Bloomberg, so let's, we're not done yet. He's actually been very. He's been talking about a lot of stuff and maybe you guys can help me discern what is a leak and what is Mark just speculating? Let's see what else he said. What else did he say? I've forgotten now. Maybe I completely forgot. He says what is he talking about? Oh, he's cold dead. He puts it all over the place in the newsletter, which is very confusing. We got the extra care thing.

0:49:02 - Jason Snell
Was that the report about the app store in the EU? That was this week, right yeah?

0:49:08 - Leo Laporte
There's already. We're seeing code in some Reuters and other places too. Here's the one. An M3 Ultra chip could have a whopping 80 graphics scores. Well, we know that because it'd be two maxes 40 times two yeah. That's just that's math, that's multiplication. I guess that's it All right. I thought there was more.

0:49:33 - Andy Ihnatko
Well, a lot of people are talking about about the new beta of iPhone OS that now lets you record not the same thing, but that allows you to record 3D spatial videos for Vision Pro, and Apple is actually giving demos to certain people, like CNN to say very controlled demos where, hey, here's an iPhone 15 Pro that's running the new beta. You can take a video of this thing We've set up in this set, the Sushi Chef we've set up for you, and that's led to a lot of speculation about, like, where Apple is positioning it.

0:50:05 - Leo Laporte
I think that he commented about that in a different in a newsletter last week, but it was I actually pay good money for subscribing to this thing, but he puts them out on Sunday, which drives me it's like that's what. That's what it seems like all the scoops are. That's when we're all at mass.

0:50:21 - Andy Ihnatko
Yes, I'm sorry.

0:50:22 - Leo Laporte
I'm in church. Can you please? Yeah and yeah. Reuters had a story that Apple's already preparing for third party app stores. Of course they are, because the EU's gonna force them pretty much. Apple says it expects to make this is from TechCrunch app store policy changes. They've bowed to the inevitable, says TechCrunch, to comply with the Digital Markets Act. Yeah.

0:50:50 - Andy Ihnatko
This came with a bunch of paperwork that they had to file with their financials, basically saying that documenting here is the things that we're probably gonna have to be facing in the next quarter, and they said that we expect that we're gonna have to deal address this in a way that is not involved with trying to sue or browbeat the EU into giving them an exception.

0:51:08 - Leo Laporte
There's also interoperability, and I think there's some question about does that mean green bubbles on Android?

0:51:16 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, there's a lot of movement there. There's negotiations that are still going on, but also Google has been using this weird tactic of trying. I mean, they know that they're gonna be hit hard by the Digital Markets Act, but they're trying to weaponize it on their own behalf. They and a bunch of phone carriers in the EU are trying to get the or basically, they sent a formal letter saying hey, you should declare that iMessage is like a platform that is covered by the Digital Markets Act and therefore that Apple should be forced to open it up to WhatsApp, to open it up to our messaging platform or to all the services. So there's a lot of pressure from a lot of directions against iMessage now.

0:51:55 - Andy Lindsay
And the problem is that iMessage is so small in the EU.

0:51:58 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, they're gonna be exempt as far as iMessage goes from the DMA. It's just too small yeah because it's probably.

0:52:05 - Andy Lindsay
It's just a tiny, it's everybody. I mean, there are people. I did get some blowback on the last time I said nobody in the EU uses iMessage, but people then send me messages like I use iMessage. But obviously WhatsApp is just dominant in most of the world except for the United States.

0:52:20 - Leo Laporte
Well, and I misinterpreted this headline when I first read it in the Verge nothing is bringing iMessage to Android, but actually nothing is something in this case, nothing is the name of a company that is bringing a feature to the new nothing phone.

0:52:33 - Andy Ihnatko
Damn it, damn these companies and their clever names that make you have to like.

0:52:37 - Andy Lindsay
Yeah, nothing.

0:52:38 - Leo Laporte
and their next product when hell freezes over, yeah so nothing is now on its second version of its Android phone. It's Carl Payes company. He used to do Oppo and he's got his own company now and he is announced and gave a preview to Marquez Brownlee, who I'm so jealous of. He announced a preview of Nothing. Chats Marquez confirmed with Nothing. It's similar to how other iMessage to Android Bridge services have worked before. It's signing in on some Mac mini on a server form somewhere, so you have to give them your iCloud credentials. They will sign in to a Mac mini for you. They assure you that they will never see the messages. They go right through the Mac mini to the nothing phone. In fact, they store those iCloud credentials in a token and encrypted database. I'm sorry, I'm not giving anybody my iCloud it seems like a lot of work.

0:53:35 - Andy Lindsay
That just seems like a lot of work to not just buy an iPhone Like I'm just. I'm sorry but, I'm like but I'm like that. I mean like if you really want a blue bubble, then just get the thing that makes the blue bubble, but that seems like a huge lift to do that.

0:53:51 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, I think it's easier to switch people to WhatsApp than to say, oh, I'm gonna throw away this phone that I love.

0:53:56 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, they're probably. I wonder if they're licensing Beeper, a white labeling Beeper, which was a service that does exactly the same thing.

0:54:05 - Andy Ihnatko
I don't know. Yeah, I think that I don't have it in front of me, but I think they're saying that they're licensing technology from a company that was very familiar there are these two or three?

companies are doing. That's what. Yeah, there's at least two or three companies are doing similar things, but the fact that none of them has been so successful to either become a monster in their own right or to become something that Google or somebody just decides to buy and integrate, that should show you exactly how much demand there is for. Yes, I do think that green bubble syndrome is an overstated thing, but it is a thing I do think that Apple's being silly and petulant.

0:54:38 - Leo Laporte
Sorry, sunbird, yeah.

0:54:40 - Andy Ihnatko
I do think Apple's being silly and petulant by not saying why would you not want to make messaging more secure and media more better and experience for all of your iPhone users, but nonetheless, the fact that it's a for most people it's a shrug. It'd be nice, but this is why I don't even use a built-in stock messaging app anymore.

0:55:00 - Andy Lindsay
I do think that I I think I misread how important it was until after I talked to my kids, who are in high school right now. It's a big deal at that age. Yeah, they were like you know, one of them said. One of them said, you know, if you ever got a green bubble, they, you know, like you're odd or your parents don't really want to give you a real phone, you know like, like, it's just kind of like you're really like the To be honest absolutely, but then they don't have that opinion, but they just said that's what.

That's the kind of the thing that gets bounced around, and that's why 87% of kids under eight I mean people under 18 in the United States are on an iPhone and that is, and. So while the thing is is that it is not a big deal right now. I can see why Google is really concerned about it because of you know, eventually 87% becomes the entire population. You know they could keep on getting older. They keep on buying the phone that they're used to, and so it's a and because now you know you used to try to get people in early. Now you're getting kids that are 12, 13, 14 years old with iPhones. After five or six years are they really gonna change?

0:56:01 - Leo Laporte
Are they really gonna change?

0:56:02 - Andy Lindsay
their phone. Oh, it's a brilliant it's a brilliant anti-competitive strategy from Apple and it works, and when you see there's a lot of features that they add that people our age don't notice, like like, I don't really understand why you'd add this feature. It's because the age group that they're targeting is not us. You know it is, and so it's a pretty effective very effective, and so I can see it.

I can see why it's still a small percentage of the total messaging world, but I think there's also, I think one of the thing Apple's benefiting from is that you know, like my kids don't use any other message.

0:56:35 - Leo Laporte
Is there anything you could? You can do with iMessage that you can't do with WhatsApp or Telegram, or I mean, in theory, any third party digital only messaging service could duplicate all of the phones you could but you'd have to integrate with.

0:56:49 - Andy Lindsay
You'd have to integrate with all your friends, you don't get Memoji's or whatever.

0:56:53 - Leo Laporte
You don't get those.

0:56:54 - Andy Lindsay
Yeah, I mean those things are available in some other form, but Memoji's are the Memoji's and the way that the level are. I will tell you that the Memoji's look way better than everybody else's. I mean, I don't know how everybody else's have succeeded in looking so dorky, but everybody looks, I mean, like. My Memoji doesn't look exactly like me, but it looks like a slightly cooler version of me and you know, like you know, the cooler.

How was that possible, alex? How was that possible? Exactly? Yeah, so the, but all the other ones are kind of a slightly dorkier version of you and I don't understand, like what happened there. But I every time I see other the other emojis that you can build from Snap and from you know, all these other ones, it's always like kind of a weird, you know dorky version of yourself as opposed to the Apple ones that look like a cooler version of yourself and I think you're never gonna convince me of that.

0:57:45 - Leo Laporte
I'm sorry, Alex, it's not look like a cooler version of me. It looks like a soft, focused, weird thumb. You obviously haven't worked at it.

0:57:52 - Andy Lindsay
I've worked at it. I have many of them.

0:57:54 - Andy Ihnatko
I know I'm kind of on my Memoji.

0:57:55 - Leo Laporte
I'm pretty happy, alex, you have a low self-opinion. If you think it's a cool version of you, I'm sorry, that is they are not, and nobody maybe kids use them. No adult uses them. It's embarrassing to use a Memoji. Please give me a break. It's like a clip on time.

0:58:10 - Andy Lindsay
I don't use them. I use them with my family. I think I do yeah with family.

0:58:13 - Andy Ihnatko
I use it sometimes as a joke with family, but anyway I mean Alex has a really good point, though I mean we can't forget how cutthroat Apple's protection of the iPhone. Oh, absolutely, they know what they know too.

0:58:27 - Leo Laporte
Craig Federighi said in a memo we've seen it oh, we would lose all the and parents we had the kids Android phones. If we did that.

0:58:36 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, there was another piece of discovery about how the Apple actually I don't think we talked about this last week where Apple was actually like this close to finishing Android compatibility for Apple Watch, but then like they decided that yeah, that's gonna give people a reason to buy an Android phone instead of an iPhone why would we do that? And they cancel the entire thing.

0:58:54 - Jason Snell
Yeah, the iPhone's, the Count, Jules. Why would they? I mean honestly, this is this is my question is there's a lot of talk about oh pity, the green bubbles and Apple should be open and all of this. It's like it is an appreciable area where Apple has built a moat above. It's a good moat Around the iPhone.

you don't build moats above you blow them around and it makes people wanna have an iPhone. It makes people wanna keep an iPhone. The iPhone is their entire business. It's half their revenue. It is the whole thing. Why in the world would they what? Out of the kindness of their heart? I don't get it.

0:59:26 - Andy Ihnatko
I can give two reasons why, and I won't go into the whole screen that I've said before, but like I would. I absolutely agree with this idea that they shouldn't be required ethically to like undermine their own sales, but I also think they're not allowed to say that, wow, we think that privacy and security are the most important things unless it affects sales. We think that health and safety are the most important things unless, again, it would help people who don't buy our products to be healthier and more secure. But anyway, look at this wonderful halo we've just put on ourselves. Isn't it a beauty? It's the 2023 model is now titanium.

1:00:00 - Andy Lindsay
Here's the. I personally think I think the Apple's biggest mistake was even entertaining the idea, like if I was at Apple, if I was running Apple, I wouldn't have. Someone would have said, hey, what do you think about Android?

1:00:13 - Leo Laporte
I'd be like, no, like it's not like, and I wouldn't have sent it over email. It was yeah, don't write it. That was a big crazy.

1:00:20 - Andy Lindsay
That's the biggest mistake is like why are you using email to talk about these things Like it's?

1:00:25 - Andy Ihnatko
I do think a lot of it has to do with if regulators basically insist that we open up by message. We have to have a plan for doing that. If it's less of a problem with the Apple watch, but I could see how they're saying let's at least explore this and least have a plan for how we can get this spun up. If all of our appeals lose and we have to actually do this, how can we do this in such a way that it wouldn't be as damaging as possible or it wouldn't stretch our resources any thinner than they?

1:00:48 - Jason Snell
actually are Given the end to end encryption, I don't think there's a way that they would ever do it. But what I would say is this I agree with you, andy, that they should probably implement RCS. They're not gonna. If they do it, it's not gonna be a blue bubble, right, that's not gonna. Sorry, that's not gonna change. But if they wanted to, they could implement a at least somewhat more secure system not really necessarily secure, but more secure.

And I agree that they seem to be sort of like all in or all out. It's like it's either SMS or it's iMessage. But I go back to my original point, which is they're trying to serve their customers and iMessage is a bespoke for Apple customers product and it works really well and it has a lot of benefits to them, and so they're gonna just kind of keep doing it, and I don't have a problem with that. But I do agree on the broader sense that I think there are some other things out there like RCS that I don't know. They seem to just not wanna support that out of spite and everybody kind of frames it as oh, but if they supported RCS they'd have to give up the blue bubbles and all that it's like. No, of course not. They'd be so be green, or they'd be orange or something.

1:01:48 - Andy Ihnatko
They would not be the problem for me is that if the iMessage app says that oh, I'm talking to another iPhone, I'll use the iMessage protocol. If it's not, then it's okay, I will fall back to SMS. I don't see the argument for saying I will fall back to a more secure international standard protocol that also will allow people to send photos to each other that don't look like they're from a live journal from 2005.

1:02:13 - Jason Snell
I don't disagree. I think that's the difference between saying Apple should put iMessage on Android which I don't agree with and saying Apple should not make their products so hostile that if you're not on the iPhone, it falls back to out of spite, essentially to the worst protocol.

1:02:30 - Andy Ihnatko
What's the minimum wage we can pay you instead of not get a suit?

1:02:34 - Andy Lindsay
And I think that it's also. It's just not worth it to them, like it's not, it's not, like it doesn't mean anything. And again, we talked about the fact that they took a week off to fix things. You know, the programmers, oddly enough, are not grown on trees and you incorporate every, and it may seem like a minor thing, but every time you add something, it adds something. Like I work on productions all the time and someone goes oh well, there's one more little thing, and that's one more little thing that I have to think about, and so, and it's a bunch of meetings that I have to have and a bunch of things that we have to do, and now there's people that have to manage it, and you know, and Apple, just probably at this point, I think that there's probably some strategic reasons for it, but they're busy and they don't have, you know again, finding programmers or not.

They're busy, but this is this is like there's a difference between let's not.

1:03:19 - Jason Snell
I realize it's not. Not, it is work to do it, but you know people who have iPhone users, people who have iPhones have friends who use Android and they have conversations with people who use Android. And so where do you set the bar? And I would argue that there is at some point. There is a threshold, which is, you know what Our users ought to have a better communication standard when they're communicating with their friends with Android, and not we're gonna make it as bad as possible out of spite slash, just not wanting to do any work, and I would argue that maybe we've cleared the bar where they ought to put in a little bit of work to make that.

1:03:53 - Andy Lindsay
How much of a standard is RCS, Like how, what percentage it is?

1:03:56 - Andy Ihnatko
it is, it is the well, it's the default. What percentage?

1:03:59 - Andy Lindsay
How, what percentage? What percentage? A very small, I would guess.

1:04:05 - Andy Ihnatko
Well, anyone running a modern flagship phone that's equal to the iPhone has RCS messaging.

1:04:09 - Jason Snell
Yeah, anyone who's texting?

1:04:10 - Andy Lindsay
on Android. Yep, anyone is texting on Android Because of the last numbers I saw were like a penetration of below 20% of anyone using our actual, actually using RCS. So that's the whole thing is. It's not like it's it's not like a global standard that Apple is a bulwark against. It's still. It's still not widely accepted or widely used. I don't think that's true.

1:04:31 - Jason Snell
I think it's not used, because a lot of people use what's that. But it is used and it is sort of like the follow one for SMS and MMS sort of anywhere in the Android sphere and it does. It's better than what is there, even though it's not as good as iMessage, and again I like I get there's a prioritization issue there, but it I don't think. I don't think it's not being used, I think it's just that.

1:04:51 - Andy Lindsay
Apple doesn't want to support it. 20% is still a lot of people. I'm just saying it's not the majority of the world and Apple has somehow got this little moat that's like surrounded by the rest of the world. There's just a lot of non just. I don't think there's a lot of people actually using it.

1:05:04 - Andy Ihnatko
Oh, again, that's it's. I'm with Jason in the point that. But the people who will use it it's not insubstantial and they will have a better experience overall and the people using an iPhone will have a better experience with those people. And although your point is extremely well taken, we were just talking earlier about how the even doing something like hey, let's change the, let's change this font on this app, something as trivial as that, that takes a long time and it can break things. However, I agree with that, I concur with that. And then I say, wow, well, apple, your $2 trillion company, sucks to be you, doesn't it, do it?

1:05:39 - Leo Laporte
Actually as early as 20, it's not about regulation as early as 2013,. According to the Verge, eddie Q wanted to bring iMessage to Android. The quote from the email shouldn't have written it down, eddie, do we want to use one of the most important at lose, one of the most important apps in a mobile environment to Google, to which it was Phil Schiller in 2016 who said I message, I message. Expansion will hurt us more than help us.

1:06:09 - Andy Lindsay
And you wonder why Amazon executives were using vanishing text over whatever. Yeah, so, and it was.

1:06:19 - Leo Laporte
Craig Federighi, who said I am concerned that iMessage on Android was simply served to remove an obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones. He said the quiet part out loud.

1:06:33 - Andy Ihnatko
At that minimum. It doesn't cost anything for Tim Cook not to be so glib about this, like when he's asked point blank in a public forum. But hey, I'm having problems talking to my mom, the woman who born me and raised me, who I love to a level that is incomparable to any other kind of love, and she says, wow, well, maybe she, maybe she should buy an iPhone instead and like, wow, that is, let them. Let them take on a really really nice tech pro level. That was that was bad, wasn't it?

1:07:00 - Leo Laporte
That was really bad. This is the technician technology Nothing is using. As thank you to the discord, it told me it's sunbird, which does the same thing as Beeper. So there are there are multiple ones of these and it yeah, they run basically a Mac mini in the cloud. If you have a Mac lying around that you don't mind keeping on all the time. I actually use this. This is open source and free. It's called air message, air messageorg, and it works great. I run air message as my standard SMS app on my pixel eight. It then gets all my messages, both text and I message. It doesn't have all the features I don't. I can't do me emojis, oh shucks but I can do reactions and a lot of the features that I would do. It also has a web based version and it's free. The only downside is you have to run the server instead of sunbird or Beeper. I've used it for a long time. I love it.

1:08:00 - Andy Ihnatko
And also it's another variable, that's. That is possibly a reason why you didn't get a text message that was super, super important.

1:08:07 - Leo Laporte
So yeah, but believe me, you have. There's other variables, like the sucky service provided by your carrier. Yeah you know I'm a Verizon. I was constantly dropping messages. It's it's amazing. It's stunning that the, the, the premium priced carrier, does such a terrible job with my message.

1:08:29 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, I agree, I just. I just get worried about not only that, you don't want to add another layer.

1:08:33 - Leo Laporte
I understand it works. Yeah, it works well.

1:08:36 - Andy Ihnatko
When this company goes out of business and they're bought by somebody else. No, no, it's an open change. Well, that's what I'm saying.

1:08:39 - Leo Laporte
This is open source, it's not a company. Okay, I've got three and it's open source and it will be around forever and it runs very well. The only problem is port forwarding. You got to open a you know hole in your thing. All right, let's take another break. Andy and Ako, wgbh and points West and South.

1:09:01 - Andy Ihnatko
Open a hole in your thing is also a very good show.

1:09:03 - Leo Laporte
title Do not open a hole in your thing. Whatever you do, I it's. The only struggle I've had with air messages is opening that home of my thing. Hi, I'm.

1:09:15 - Andy Ihnatko
Andy, I'm emotionally 11 years old.

1:09:20 - Leo Laporte
Also Jason Snell, six colorscom. That's where his iMac and MacBook Pro reviews live, among other many wonderful things.

1:09:32 - Jason Snell
Yep that and colorful charts.

1:09:34 - Leo Laporte
You know, charts every quarter. That should be your slogan. Colorful charts every quarter, all six colors. We use them all, and from office hoursglobal. Mr Alex Lindsey, now see the. You close the curtains. The sun is not washing out your beautiful set.

1:09:54 - Andy Lindsay
It's cloudy day, still working on it. I did get some suggestions after talking about it last time, so I've got some blackout stickers that I'm going to try on the on the windows and, and so I'm the last thing anybody on the show and I have to see is daylight.

1:10:07 - Leo Laporte
I mean, just that just ruins a room. If you ask me, it really does it really does.

1:10:11 - Andy Lindsay
I'm not going to disagree with you on that one.

1:10:17 - Leo Laporte
Our show today brought to you by notice. There are no windows in this studio. None, we learned our lesson. See, he's given me a hard time out and then he's like okay, well, show us we have fake light, we have just fake windows.

1:10:28 - Andy Lindsay
Why don't you have skylight? Oh right, Because it would ruin.

1:10:31 - Leo Laporte
Yeah Well, I learned that I, as I said last week in the West side studio, controlling the sun was a nightmare. Our show today, brought to you by HID Global. Reduce risk, operating costs and complexity by outsourcing your public key infrastructure operations to HID Global. Cloud based PKI as a service model. It provides automated management of the complex certificate life cycles and encryption. It's your one stop shop for simplifying private and public PKI management with one predictable price and one easy to use platform. And HID Global simple subscription plan has no additional charges for additional certificates under your current plan.

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HID is connector model of PKI. Uses open source certificate utilities, so your organization can use multiple operating systems. Is great for BYOD. Look, there's one thing you got to do Go to HID dot link slash Mac break right now and read all about it. You're going to love this PKI as a service hid.lin/macbreak. I was a little worried about was. You might have heard. Something bad happened to him when he was at a conference in Mexico city. He's back home in California. They say now is a minor stroke. At first we thought maybe it was just dehydration. He was in Mexico city for a conference, suffered a dizzy spell on Wednesday. They took him to the hospital, learned he had suffered a minor stroke a day later. He said in an interview this is from Mickle reporting in the New York Times that the hospital released him and he was quote doing good yeah.

1:12:52 - Andy Ihnatko
It's good. It's good that we didn't get a report from the family that he's doing good. Yes, A reporter was able to talk to him and he said whatever. I mean it's tough because personal health should be private. If someone wants to keep that private, they should not have to answer any questions to anybody on it for any reason. But she was is pretty beloved by a lot of people. Oh my God, yes.

Everybody on the stage. So it's good, it's, it's, it's your. I was pretty like oh God. But just because the early news was that all we know is that he was taken to a hospital. He was supposed to talk and right before the talk he was taken to hospital. And it's like, oh God, what happened? What happened? He had a dizzy spell.

1:13:31 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, the worst part of the experience, he said, was the hospital required him to stay on a gurney for 24 hours and wouldn't let him roll on his side. You know what? I would be unhappy about that too. He will be canceling a number of trips for speaking engagements in Dubai, medellin and Baku. That's life for me in the busy times. It was. I love you, steve, stay well. Thank God he married Janet. She insisted that he go to the hospital. When he started feeling dizzy, she said uh, yeah, steve, you're coming with me and, um, janet's pretty awesome she is. We know, of course, we've all been on a cruise with her, haven't we? We know her and was very well. Janet used to be an Apple education uh product manager and I think that's how they met. I don't know if they met on a cruise, but she used to come on them on the geek cruises with us.

1:14:22 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I, they might, I don't know. I just I remember having I had multiple meals with Janet and Andy on that Mexico cruise. I want to say, yeah, she's great. Yeah, she's back in the day and she's great, she's was always fun.

1:14:35 - Leo Laporte
I have lots of great pictures of was we were. Um, we were on a South American cruise that purported I've met I've told this story many times, but forgive me if I'll tell it again that purported to have an excursion to Antarctica and of course was. And I both signed up gladly for this and they said all right, you got to bundle up. In fact, I brought with me thermal underwear and heavily insulated clothing and everything, cause we're going to, we're going to fly in a plane to Antarctica. We were, you know, in the southern most part of Chile, uh, and we're going to fly in a plane to Antarctica.

Uh, we, we go to the airport in the the excursion bus was, and Janet and me and 10 other people, and we get out and there's a guy looking at a map with a frown and concern, and then another guy comes up and look at a map with a frown and concern, and then the cruise director comes up and looks at the map and they he announces I'm sorry folks, uh, the weather just won't allow us to go to Antarctica. And I asked him. I said have you, have you ever been to Antarctica? He said no, we've net, the weather has never allowed us to go. You have this excursion, but you've never, actually done it.

No we never get to go, but don't worry because we have a alternate standing by. We're going to Torrey Del Paine's, which is great. It's these beautiful mountains, two mountains. But see, was this reason I'm telling this story. Was is a smart man, because underneath his 18 layers and his thermal under he's wearing shorts. So he strips down into shorts and a T shirt. He's ready to go to Torrey Del Paine's and I'm going like I'm in my snow suit.

1:16:16 - Andy Ihnatko
Can I say that? Can I say that if was was like the official ambassador of really rich people, people would not have a problem with rich people because the way he used to go when he goes to like a speech, he went to a speaking event here in Boston and he brought his segues with him because he was going on it. Oh yeah, oh, that is someone trusted. Someone gave good fortune to someone that I very much approve of having mixing good fortune.

1:16:44 - Leo Laporte
He's kind of a goofball and we love that about him, right? He's not arrogant in any way.

1:16:50 - Andy Lindsay
He was teaching, and I can't remember which school, but he was teaching as a state. Yeah, yes, no, in a high school. Oh, it's a high school.

1:16:56 - Leo Laporte
He went to San Jose State to get his degree after founding Apple and then went on teaching credential and then went on to teach high school. You speak.

1:17:06 - Andy Lindsay
In the event, I was at last year and or, yeah, earlier this year, and he was talking about it and he said you know, there's a lot of technique on how to teach and everything else and he goes. But the bottom line is is he goes, if the kids are excited about programming, they'll learn how to. If they're excited about anything, kids will learn how to do it. And he said so I just focus on getting them excited about doing it and then they learn how to program. And in case you doubt, classic was this very I just tore told.

1:17:32 - Leo Laporte
Here is a picture of was and Janet at Tori Del Paine's in his shorts. We were going to Antarctica. He had shorts underneath his snow suit. He, by the way, also doesn't go anywhere without $2 bills and a Nixie watch. And if that's not loading smug mug, come on smug mug. Let me do it again. I have to double click it. Here he is wearing his Nixie watch and it's $2 bills, and all the rest of us are amazed that he's in shorts.

1:18:07 - Andy Ihnatko
So not only that, but but he has to. He has to buy some sheets. He has them sliced and then gummed into like note pads so he can just like literally peel them off of a pad when he needs to tip somebody.

1:18:19 - Leo Laporte
And he plays a game, he says oh, don't worry, these aren't counterfeit, as he's tearing $2 bills off a pad and he says I fully expect people to decide that they're counterfeit and give me a hard time. It's part of the fun, what?

1:18:34 - Andy Ihnatko
Why there hasn't been like an HBO max mini series just about fictionalized stories about was that is the he thought would be the easiest 10 episodes ever.

1:18:44 - Leo Laporte
He has. His business cards are very, very thin steel, which is a well.

1:18:50 - Andy Ihnatko
I have, I still have. I still have this in my wallet. It's highly impractical. You go get it.

1:18:54 - Leo Laporte
But you know why he does it. Go ahead and go get it. I'll tell. I'll finish the story. He does it cause he loves to. He's sitting in first class on an airplane. Take out his business card and cut the steak with it. It says I don't like those plastic knives. So he goes to all the trouble to get a metal business card so he can do that. Here's a picture of was and Janet playing their game boys with one another as we're waiting for the bus to go somewhere on one of these geek cruises. He's got C, he's got both a Nixie watch and it looks like I don't know is that a Fitbit is pre-Apple watch era. He and Janet have another another watch on their wrists and they have connected their game boys so they could play against one another.

1:19:39 - Jason Snell
Those geek cruises were a lot of fun. I'm sorry We've left the era of the geek cruise. I know those were great and it was really fun hanging with was.

1:19:47 - Leo Laporte
I love it. Let me see the business card. Yeah, look at that Solid metal you can? He was very proud that you had steak with it.

1:19:55 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, it's, it's like, it is like the coolest thing. I have in my in my wallet. He's the greatest ever.

1:20:05 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, I wish I'd saved mine. That's pretty awesome. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, we wish you the best. We love you.

1:20:12 - Andy Ihnatko
I forgot you the best. Yeah, make sure you edit this before you copy. It is an old card, I'm sure he's.

1:20:18 - Leo Laporte
I doubt that phone number still works. Yeah, so many great stories, yeah.

1:20:24 - Andy Ihnatko
Cause it's cause it's not just hey, here's my here's. You've met Steve Wozniak, so here's your.

1:20:28 - Leo Laporte
Here's your. It has an actual phone number and address.

1:20:32 - Andy Ihnatko
Home number. Home number, email address his home ad home address on it yeah. Yeah, it's like so we'll blur that out.

1:20:40 - Leo Laporte
Kevin will. Kevin will do his magic and blur that out.

1:20:43 - Andy Ihnatko
I think one of the reasons why I keep my wallet so that if someone steals my wallet and they go through the oh my God, he knows this guy, he knows someone who could probably have me killed I need to return this wallet to him.

1:20:52 - Leo Laporte
Well, yeah, Steve was notorious hacker Steve, both steves were back in the day. Woz told me he used to like to, maybe with somebody else who told me he went over to visit Woz and he would spend his evenings listening in on satellite phone calls. Some people listen to police radios. He liked to listen to satellite phone, so on that Mexico cruise.

1:21:20 - Jason Snell
He had a phone and it was a he had like a Western electric phone. Yeah, yeah, that classic black rotary dial phone which was his cell phone. Yes. And and the cell phone was inside like the cell stuff and it would ring and I believe you could even dial with the rotary dial, translate that into tones and send it out. You totally could. All areas. He said this is my cordless phone and it was literally a cell phone and a whole phone Can.

1:21:48 - Andy Ihnatko
I also say that there are a lot of people, especially in Gen X, who like worse, like little kids, little nerds, who are in communities where little nerds were not really appreciated. People who like to take radio were not appreciated. And then but you hear all these stories about Steve Wozniak and you're just inspired to say that sounds interesting, I'm going to. I'm going to be a noble to do that too, I'm going to. There must be a reason why the phone system works the way it does. I bet it's written down somewhere and I bet I can read that document and then do cool things with phones that if I were to that in 10 years, would get me super arrested, but I can probably still get away with it right now.

1:22:24 - Leo Laporte
He was. Also he would bring he'd like to bring toys on these cruises. He brought green lasers on one of these, macmany yes, that's his arm with the cuff link holding the green laser and making it shine everybody's eyes. My, my, my mom was entranced by him. In fact I think somewhere we have a picture of him and here, here we are some good. That's Dr Mac Bob Lovitis with Steve and me on one of those cruises, acting silly, acting silly. I think it's a formal night. He's wearing a tux. Love you, steve. And you know it's important that we say these, cause he's in good health and he's and he's fine. And don't save those, all those great anecdotes for a less pleasant time.

1:23:13 - Andy Ihnatko
Again. Miniseries, miniseries, miniseries. Somebody, there's my, oh, it just you know, forget Steve Jobs.

1:23:21 - Leo Laporte
Why aren't they making the was miniseries? That would be awesome.

1:23:24 - Andy Ihnatko
The us festival you save that for season two, because that's going to be the entire fortune.

1:23:33 - Leo Laporte
There's also the great stories of you know Steve Jobs saying I don't want to give stock to our employees and was saying well, we're gonna cause I'm going to use my stock and give it to the employee. Gave away his stock to employees after jobs said no options for the employees. There's lots of stories like that, yeah.

1:23:54 - Andy Ihnatko
Truly, steve being employee number number one and Steve Jobs saying, okay, guess what, I'm employee number zero because that rubs me the wrong way, yeah, anyway.

1:24:04 - Leo Laporte
All right. Apple, we found out, gets 36% of Google's revenue in the search deal, of the money they, google, makes from Safari on the iPhone. Now the funny part is this was not supposed to be revealed but it came out in the trial. A witness for Google let it slip out. In fact, I think it's Bloomberg that said they could see that the you heard is John Schmidt line Google's main litigator visibly cringe when Murphy said the number, which was supposed to remain confidential. He's not a Google employee. You reveal it. It was a University of Chicago professor testifying said that 36% of the revenue Apple earns from a, rather that Google earns from search advertising through the Safari browser, goes to Apple. That's a nice number. That's a healthy number.

1:25:04 - Andy Lindsay
Well, I think the other side of that is how much money Google's making on Apple iPhones Like they are, they are they?

1:25:11 - Leo Laporte
are they keep the other 66 or whatever? Yeah.

1:25:15 - Andy Lindsay
That gross is like I mean it. The gross is between 50 and 60 million. I mean that's what it sounds like. I mean it sounds like a big number. Oh, it's more than that 60 billion, I'm sorry, billion yeah, 50 to 60 billion dollars from just the iPhone, because we know also from this trial that eight, that's that 36%, is $18 billion Right. That's what I'm saying. You, you, you put the other math together and they're making money 54 billion dollars total.

Yeah, and oddly enough, google isn't complaining about the 36. In fact, they're trying to hang on to, quite happily, 36. Yeah, you know, we call that. In where I come from, we call that adulting. Yes, they have. They have a virtual product that doesn't the, the, the, the doesn't cost them any production money and they're paying 36, 36%, but they're keeping 64% of it.

1:26:00 - Andy Ihnatko
I think a lot of the other developers might want to think about that a little bit, I think.

1:26:03 - Andy Lindsay
Google's paying more than them and and not complaining about it because they are printing money. Printing money on the, on the iPhone, yeah.

1:26:12 - Andy Ihnatko
This is why all this testimony is like number one. This this really illustrates why a lot of news, news agencies like a New York Times, a lot a lot of reporters are like why is? Why is so much of this content being censored? Why do you're just unnecessarily protecting the business interests of these litigants as opposed to you? We should have access to this, this information. There's going to be FOIA requests, I think. Maybe, if, if that's applicable I forget if it's actually Apple's court procedures, but no, I think it's just public records.

I'm sorry, I'm just going to on a tangent, but yeah, this way, there's so much stuff that is being argued about that. Why is this being censored? Or why is this document not being available? I mean, I'm I'm basically I'm almost like visiting the, the repository of, of of court documents in this case, as much as I'm like hitting Reddit these days, cause you never know, like, when something really interesting is going to drop.

But the other and the but the other part is that is like the department of justice keeps thinking that they've got the smoking gun about aha, see how much you billions of dollars that Apple, you're accepting for this default position and and and like. And the testimony is back is like yeah, because, like, google search is absolutely awesome, we want it, it's the best for our users, it's what our users want, it's the the Google's willing to give us the money for this placement. Why are we not? Why would we not willing to accept billions, billions of dollars a year, to accept to make the default a product that is the best for our users, that they want, that makes our product better? Explain to me why that is in any way illegal, improper or immoral, andy.

1:27:47 - Leo Laporte
Andy, I want you to take good care of that business card. I just got a link from Pog in our IRC. You don't have to worry about blurring it out either, because it's a fail on one eBay for $2,500.

1:28:04 - Andy Ihnatko
Oh, okay, it's available on eBay, but okay, I can trade this for a new.

1:28:08 - Leo Laporte
Mac pro. Actually, this one does not have what yours has, which is the phone numbers in the home address. So it does have. Though what do you? What is this code here? We're? You know it's a four zero, eight, eight, eight, eight. Oh, that's his phone number, Steve, you wag 408 area code. It's a 10 digit number and he's doing some sort of weird punch out thing. That's his phone number, All right, All right.

I won't the phone number is on there, but I think I bet it's a business number I'm gonna have a punch out like that.

1:28:43 - Andy Ihnatko
Hang on, give me one second Cause. As it happens, of course, I have like blue painters tape at my desk that do the podcasting from, and so of course he's he's blurring it out manually. Just in case it's it's old and I'm sure that, like I'm, sure it's really old.

1:28:58 - Leo Laporte
It's probably his business line.

1:29:00 - Andy Ihnatko
And I'm sure that he has the resources to like. Yeah, so this is okay, great. So so you know, you know what his name is, but yeah, so this is the form of, like, my business card. All it has are these micro fine like perforations, which, at the time, was like an incredible flex that you had, like a manufacturing device that could actually make a mesh.

1:29:20 - Leo Laporte
That this was, that was this tiny and speaking of great memorabilia, Jason Snell has this comic book. Wow.

1:29:30 - Jason Snell
That's from our library. That's a children's book about the, the, the tale of was and and and or the two steves.

1:29:37 - Leo Laporte
I guess they call the two steves and the personal computer and not the most accurate illustrations of Steve and Steve.

1:29:45 - Jason Snell
However, I don't know, maybe when they were young at at, you know, at Berkeley or something, maybe. So I don't know. I mean it was, it was the names.

1:29:53 - Leo Laporte
I love that. It's legends, the names seem to me familiar. Don Lemke wrote it and one of the illustrious, zal Milgram, who I think was a Marvel.

1:30:04 - Andy Ihnatko
Comics, Marvel Comics artist of the seventies and eighties and nineties, Marvel Comics editor. There you go. Yeah he's, he's pretty huge. Yeah, so or two.

1:30:13 - Leo Laporte
At the time he was reading it does look a little bit like. That's why I thought it was a comic book. I thought, oh, this must be a comic book. That's a book. Nice thing to have have you stolen it from the school library, or?

1:30:24 - Jason Snell
I think it might have been weeded. This is the public library and my wife is a librarian and I think maybe I don't know whether it got weeded or whether it's still there. Sometimes old, very old computer books get weeded and I might get them or give them to friends, cause at some point they are irrelevant. Like you don't want the kids checking out the books Right, this one's history. But like a lot of them are like oh, no, no, no, no, no. Like we don't have that many planets anymore and they got to come out of the collection. Replace with new books.

1:30:49 - Andy Ihnatko
Here's a personal computer, we'll be able to store 100 recipes.

1:30:54 - Leo Laporte
Here's a beautiful page from this. So it was kind of a comic novel, it wasn't?

1:31:00 - Jason Snell
Oh yeah, it's a kid, it's a graphic novel.

1:31:02 - Leo Laporte
But it's a book for kids.

1:31:03 - Jason Snell
Yeah, it's like a kids.

1:31:04 - Leo Laporte
in the late 1960s. Steve Wozniak lived in Sunnyvale, california. Steve, we have to talk about your report card. Your English and history grades are slipping, but you know, I'd rather read these science books, says young Steve. That's cool, that's really cool. I don't know if it's accurate in the least I think.

1:31:24 - Andy Ihnatko
I think I think he probably said how would you like to be able to make long distance phone calls for free? That's much more accurate.

1:31:30 - Leo Laporte
You know, dad, with this captain crunch whistle and this smallest box of circuitry, you never have to pay phone calls again. Turns out, the electric company owes you $800 this month Wink wink I presume it's well known by our audience, but Steve, the two steves used to sell blue boxes door to door which meant you didn't have to pay for phone calls because it was the secret tones of the phone service.

1:31:55 - Jason Snell
Cause in those days that's how you hack the phone system has literally made noises into the phone, Amazing.

1:32:00 - Leo Laporte
The original blue box designed in 1972 by Steve Wozniak and marketed by Jobs and Wozniak. Here's a picture of it from the. It was apparently an auction at Bottoms. Yeah.

1:32:14 - Andy Lindsay
You know, we we talk a lot about the porous nature of you know like oh, you know, whether it's a cryptocurrency or other things, like it's anything that's new, no one really knows what to do with it yet, and in the seventies and eighties it was so porous.

1:32:30 - Leo Laporte
Well and and I've talked to you know hackers from this year, including Wozniak. What you did is you dumpster, dived the manuals behind the phone company. You'd get all the the AT&T long lines manuals and you'd reverse engineer it. I mean, that's what kept him crunched.

1:32:44 - Andy Ihnatko
That's. That's that's where I learned that from, like reading about Wozniak Cause I grew up like around the 128 belt route 128, like technology belt way and like also also having the enough insight to know that I'm 13 years old. The worst that can happen is that they chase me off. They're not going to arrest me, and so I was behind. I was at the Polaroid plant like at eight, nine, 10 at night. Like going through dumpsters with a flashlight with a piece of cellotape over the front of it, so to disguise the color oh you're, you're that guy. Oh that's cool.

1:33:16 - Leo Laporte
Well, did you have a clever hacker name? This according to the documentation provided by the auction company, uh. It was marketed and sold by Wozniak, who took the phone. Freak name Berkeley blue and jobs known as Oph Toba. They sold about 40 or 50 jobs, Said. Now it's more like a hundred jobs. Also said if it hadn't been for the blue boxes, there would have been no Apple. I am a hundred percent sure of that. This blue box ended up selling at auction for $125,000.

1:33:53 - Andy Ihnatko
I can believe it, that is. That is a that's pretty good, really nice piece of history. But isn't it, isn't it fun that even back then they kind of illustrates kind of the tension between, like, the complexity of the personality that is Apple computer and the people who run it. On the one hand, you have this very, very hippie personality that, hey, I grew up, I went to an ashram, I used to pick apples and I meditate and I you have this diet and lifestyle, at the same time saying, ooh, we can make a product out of that device and sell it to people for money and make money off of it, which, again, which is not a bad thing, but it's like.

It's always interesting to see that real people have that. There's always that interesting multifacetedness of like, not like, it's not like. You know what. I bet that we could. We could evangelize this to the world and create new like. Wow, I bet how much would it cost to make 100 of those boards? How long would it take us to actually hand solder all those, and how could we sell who? Do we know who would buy one of those?

1:34:46 - Leo Laporte
This is more of the history. In 1971, esquire published an article called the secrets of the little blue box. As was recalls, he read the story and called his friend Steve Jobs, still a senior in high school. The next day they jumped in, was his car and headed to Slack, the Stanford linear accelerator lab library, searching for clues to substantiate the details presented in the Esquire account. They found it was rights in his biography.

I froze and grabbed Steve and nearly screamed an excitement that I'd found it. We both stared at the list rushing with adrenaline. We both kept saying things like oh and wow, this thing is for real. I was practically shaking with goosebumps and everything. It was such a eureka moment as they drove back to Berkeley to discuss the possibility of creating a blue box in a state of elation and within three weeks was a devised one. I swear to this day he says, the day I'm telling you this and the day you're reading it I have never designed a circuit. I was prouder of a set of parts that could do three jobs at once instead of two. I still think it was incredible.

That's pretty darn cool, yeah, and a crunch was of course, the guy that the Atlantic or the uh, the Esquire article featured was John Draper, who's still around and not in very good health, I'm sorry to say he uh. Every once in a while he'll ping me and say can you go to my, go fund me and help me out a little bit? His back is, uh, is has always, always had a bad back, john Draper just yeah, I think he was.

1:36:18 - Andy Ihnatko
He had a very, very bad he was. He actually went to prison because of his hacking and suffered some injuries there that left him with lifelong problems, I think it is still a open on.

1:36:28 - Leo Laporte
Go fund me If you want to help him out. This is the original uh phone freak uh, captain crunch, now 77 years old and he's trying to raise money because, uh, his back is just bad. He's had five surgeries it says poor guy and they're very expensive. So if you want to help out, uh, she give him a little plug. Um, he was. Oh, wait, a minute. Did he pass? Is that over?

1:36:55 - Andy Ihnatko
No, he's still. I think he's still around. Yes, yeah, wikipedia says, or excuse me, his search. His search page on uh on on Google says he's uh, born in 1943, age 80 years.

1:37:06 - Leo Laporte
Okay, okay, uh so it's a different. John Draper on, go fund me who's trying to raise funeral expenses. That's another guy. Don't, don't, don't, don't do that one. That's a different. Well, you could, if you want, if you're moved to do so.

1:37:18 - Andy Ihnatko
You know you could. He last posted on X slash Twitter on September 21st.

1:37:22 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, I hear from him from time to time. Um, yeah, yeah, uh, let's see. All right, where do we, where do we do in here? Um, a picture is worth a thousand permission requests. Writes Jason L.

1:37:40 - Jason Snell
Uh screenshot I took while I was. So I reviewed these I max and uh MacBook pros right. So I had to migrate. So I had a USB drive. That's God. I mean I've got it right here. I've got a, I've got my time machine backup or a carbon copy cloner backup of my uh Mac studio and I just used that and migrated this to the system. So I had all my apps and stuff so I can actually use them right, not just a bear system with nothing in it. You can like type around and stuff but like, are you using the computer? At that point, as a reviewer, I want to kind of like use it, so it's loaded up.

Yeah, and migration is a common thing, right Like whenever you get a new computer. Leo, did you migrate to your new MacBook? I?

1:38:19 - Leo Laporte
as I mentioned last week, I have a very nice system using homebrew and, uh, that's true, and and I don't have this problem that you have.

1:38:29 - Jason Snell
Okay, so Apple, Apple's migrate. Well, I mean, you do sort of, but over time, it doesn't happen all at once.

1:38:35 - Leo Laporte
Yours happened all at once.

1:38:37 - Jason Snell
It migrates your preferences, it migrates your apps, it migrates your login items. It migrates lots of stuff. What it doesn't do is migrate your, your security and privacy permissions, which have been, for the last few versions of Mac OS, kind of pernicious and uh, and, as a result, what happens is on your first login, it attempts to open everything on your system, at which point you get a billion permission dialogues, each of which, each of which, if you click them, will generate another permission dialogue box, usually because they're not usually asking you for one. I also have the background saying please, I need permission, please, sir, may I have permission? And I decided to take a screenshot of it.

I tried to get a recording of the big pop up. I didn't do that, although I did get a great recording of um, of like 30 extension blocked messages appearing at one time, and I wrote about this like a month or two ago. But it just was another reminder that, fundamentally, when you buy a new Mac, you should be thrilled to get that Mac up and running and Apple wants you to migrate it. And right now, when you get to the end of the migration, you then will click, depending on how many programs you use, maybe dozens of times through these interruptions that keep coming up asking you for permission to do things on your computer with your software, and I feel like Apple is right to try and protect the user, but their user experience part has is obviously not a priority or has lagged behind and they need to do better.

And I was reminded of it again in this migration that like it's literally. It's like my app would like to read the desktop, my app would like to read the documents folder. My app would like to read a removable drive, my app would like to read. It's like it's my app. Can I just say yes and the answer is no, you can't. And then it'll be. My app would like to use your camera. Oh, you can't say yes here, but I can open the settings app and go to the right tab and then you have to check the box there. But some apps are like, oh no, you have to drag in an icon and it's too much. And and I'm not saying that again that security is not necessary, but that Apple needs to do a better job with the user experience, because we really have reached Windows Vista level of pain.

1:40:51 - Leo Laporte
I have mixed feelings on this, because I really think this is a good thing that nothing should be able to access your documents folder, your desktop folder, without you explicitly giving it permission and and you know, that's what's going on here or your microphone, or your camera, and you know. I guess the ideal would be one pop up with checkboxes, but it doesn't work that way that the apps are one by one asking for these intents.

1:41:12 - Jason Snell
Well, well, it doesn't. It could work that way. They could ask, In fact in fact, what Apple built it for is to ask in line, so you would. When it needs something in the desktop, it would ask. But the fact is, the facts on the ground right. Every app just asks right when it launches for everything because it doesn't want to get in your way later and, as a result, you get this whole chain. So it needs to be rethought. And for migration.

it should probably get rolled up and, and I would like as a as a power user, I would like to be able to say yeah, I trust BB. Edit, let it do whatever. I don't care and it won't, let me know. I did hear from somebody who said maybe what Apple will learn from this is migrate permissions.

1:41:51 - Leo Laporte
That's an idea. That's a great idea. Let's do that. Remember, every time you make a sacrifice in for convenience, you're giving it, you're giving up some security. So personally, I prefer this. I don't get this because I do it a different way. I also think you run way too much crap in the background.

1:42:09 - Jason Snell
I don't, I don't. I think it's a reasonable number.

1:42:11 - Leo Laporte
I mean set up fantastic house Swift bar, launch bar.

1:42:16 - Jason Snell
Oh no, I have utilities on my Mac. The end result of this as well.

1:42:20 - Leo Laporte

1:42:21 - Jason Snell
The background, only run things from the Mac app store and then get beaten with whatever little dialogue box that you need.

1:42:28 - Leo Laporte
Well, even terminal does this. Even terminal does this.

1:42:31 - Jason Snell
I find it really funny that you are defending this at all, leo, because this is that my computer belongs to me, and if I want to take it into my own hands, I want to be able to do so, and Apple won't let me. And I think this is one of those fundamental mistakes where Apple is basically treating me like I'm renting my computer. My computer environment is mine and if I want to do something, I know there's a little old lady out there who's going to be talked into saying yes to something that's spyware and it's going to be really bad.

And like I get it but at the same time I do not want and again I think they could apply a level of user experience here to make it more pleasant and understandable, because the other thing is we all know if you ask somebody once or twice for a permission, they will consider it and what it means. If you ask them 50 times, they will just click yes. And nobody's more secure than they call this.

1:43:20 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, this is permission fatigue. Here's another video Watch this. This is hysterical.

1:43:24 - Jason Snell
Whoa, that's all my extensions that you can't find. It doesn't tell you really what they do or what they are.

1:43:31 - Leo Laporte
Do you? Do you click each one? Oh no, because, okay, it doesn't do anything, you doesn't give you a click through each one and say okay, and then nothing happens.

1:43:40 - Andy Ihnatko
I love how. I love how the practice is for to wrap around to the top of the screen. That's pretty funny. Last one. Wait, is something wrong. Should I not be showing this many, these many dialogues?

1:43:51 - Jason Snell
I've run out, if you had more.

1:43:52 - Leo Laporte
It would keep going. It would keep going down the side there. I knew this would happen. You're screaming for it.

1:43:57 - Jason Snell
You're screaming for it yeah.

So, there's again. It's like what frustrates me about this is that I hear the security arguments and I get people who are saying you just don't want it to be secure, and it's like that is not it at all. I feel like Apple is putting max effort into max security Great. It's a fundamentally insecure operating system. It's not like iOS or iPadOS. They're trying to use what they learned and do better and like. It's a hard job and they've done a really good job at making the Mac more secure over the last few years. However, I don't sense the same sense of urgency in making this a good experience and fundamentally, like I said, if you give people permission fatigue, your security isn't better, 100%.

1:44:38 - Andy Ihnatko
I think that a lot of my complaints that I have about this sort of thing in general are 100% or 92% mitigated by the fact that Apple has two major platforms. They have the iOS platform, including the iPhone and the iPad, and they have the Mac OS platform, and you can do a lot of things on both things. But the philosophy on iOS is that we will inconvenience you to make this thing not only more secure, but more reliable and easier to use. On Mac OS, we will compromise both of those things because, hey, this is a desktop computer, you own it, you pay $2,000 for it. Whatever you want to do to this, you should have the ability to make that happen, including, in my opinion, in five or six years, like change the bootloader and boot to Linux on this if it stops being supported.

I think that the idea that it's just as you said, jason, where it's like well, apple was nice enough to lend me one of their personal computers. I had to give them $2,200 to pick it up, but isn't that? Oh, of course no, if they, if they want to control what I do, it's their computer. Why isn't I should?

1:45:51 - Leo Laporte
be grateful to them that they're letting me use this computer.

1:45:54 - Andy Ihnatko
I couldn't disagree with you guys.

1:45:56 - Leo Laporte
I feel good every time I get a pop up that says do you want this program to access the desktop I? That makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

1:46:05 - Andy Ihnatko
I like it.

1:46:06 - Jason Snell
It's Apple's love language, paranoid and security, and I have an app wants to ask for permission to open many things. I would really like it to say I would like to open many things and say okay, that's fine, instead of one thing. Yes, oh, another thing. Yes, oh, another thing. Yes, it's like come on.

1:46:24 - Leo Laporte
But you know you're done. You haven't seen that again right.

1:46:26 - Jason Snell
I mean it's done until the next time something happens where some of those things get reset, which happens. Do an update, do it to the system.

1:46:34 - Leo Laporte
Every time I update same thing, I have to give it full permissions again.

1:46:37 - Andy Lindsay
Things keep on doing it, but I want that I like that, yeah, and I admit I like I'm not affected at all because I won't put anything on my computer. That is like that, because, mostly because I use so many different computers the idea that I'd have to deal with, you know, customization. I sit down and I always want to be. I always want the computer to be as close to the base state as possible. But I will say that I can see, like, I feel like what Apple really needs to do at the OS level is let someone like Jason click on a button that says I'm an expert, I know what I'm doing, like just a little button in the system that says expert system, developer mode, developer mode or whatever. I'm going to click on this and it gives you, then it gives you a whole bunch of warnings. Are you sure? Are you sure? Can you type in all caps, I'm sure, and tell it all the things that could go wrong with it, and you go through that little process once and then from then on, it just goes. Okay, I'm going to let you do whatever you want, because I know, like for me, I'm always like I'll download something and it says, hey, you can't open that. So now I have to go to security and then I tell security no, it's okay for that app to open. And I'm actually like to Leo's side. I'd rather I have trashed my computer in a in a like, moving really quickly and not been told what it was going to do, and then it's running. You know, like it's. It's been a problem.

I have computers that I stopped using after that because I had security. I had I had it's not that they were really giving up security, but after it did that I had a confidence issue with doing anything secure on that machine and so then I ended up just getting another one, you know, and and so I'm using that one for as a toy because I just didn't trust it anymore. And so I I I do like the fact that Apple asks for permission to everything that it's doing, because I it tells me that it's stopped. It theoretically is stopping everything else or only the thing. Like I'm consciously doing it and I don't get it. Very often I get, you know, I get it when I install something. I don't have that many things I have to go through, but I do. I do think that if you want to be, if you want to live on the edge, you know it would be easy. I think I would do it at the OS law. I wouldn't turn it off, I would just do it at the OS level.

1:48:35 - Leo Laporte
Someone set a mode, a command line, a defaults that you could write. I am, I love just say yes always to these things. They could put that in.

1:48:43 - Jason Snell
I don't mind that, but I think they could do better with the UX, though I mean I really like again they. They originally conceived it and I think it was coming from a really good place. The idea is the first time that app you're using asked to read a file on a desktop without telling you right Because you can still do, use, open and choose any file in your system and because you chose it it knows. But the first time it needs to look on your desktop to see if there's something there without your knowledge, it says, hey, you can, I look the. The problem is that they implemented this and every app developer is like well, I'm not going to do that.

So I feel like the answer here needs to be just being pragmatic what, what could we have in the system and that app developers could use that would give users a better experience, that they're more likely to understand but less likely to just click through because they want to make the pain stop. And I think they could do. I agree with Alex. Like a developer mode would be great, I would probably turn it on, but the fact is I I just think they could do better. I think that they can make this experience better and yes, I'll grant you, migrating your permissions from your last system would be a great way, a great start right Cause then you're at least eliminating it happening when all at once right, when it's like a new app and you have to give a permission one time, it's a lot less painful. But when you're migrating suddenly it's 30 apps or 20 apps, and that's when I think it's too much.

1:50:06 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, that's why I think that the I love the way that a bunch of different platforms do the user interface of this sort of thing, like with Android. I can't remember if it's still the way they do that, but there was a developer mode that will give you access to all kinds of different tools and stats and access that, and there is no user interface for that. It is you go to like the version number of Android and settings and you tap it 11 times in a row and that at the eighth or ninth tap it says, okay, I'm about to engage developer mode, do you really want to do this? And you keep tapping because it's something where, like, the phone seems to be saying, okay, clearly, this person wants to be in developer mode. They want it so much that they've searched for the secret way of engaging this that we've hidden. So, therefore, we're not going to question that person.

I love the way that app signing works on macOS, where it's like we block the installation of this app because it is not signed. But if you I'm going to give you a little bit of a test that if you think that this is something you really want to do, go into settings, do this, do that. We will actually mother, may I, two or three more times, but we will let you do this, but we will put in, we will make it just enough of a pain in the butt to make sure that you understand that this is not something we would love for you to do. Yeah, but the idea of, like, if I'm running an app installer and part of it is, and it stops because, oh, I click through all the permissions in the app installer but the OS asks ooh, do you want this app that installs apps to actually have access to this volume?

Yes, yes, I. Actually I would have thought that was implied computer, but if you need me to click this button after realizing it was there 18 minutes later, yes, do that. It's basically the last part of it. It really is just like the philosophical and the psychological part of it I am perfectly fine with. Excuse me, I don't want to suffer a disaster of any kind. I don't want to get screwed for any reason. However, if that's going to happen, it is much easier to deal with if it's like ah, that was stupid, I didn't do that thing that I should have done. Okay, I've lived and learned, as opposed to. No, I can't copy this document onto this device, which I absolutely need to do to make this deadline, because Apple decided that I can't be trusted with something as radical as putting a file from point A to point B. That gets me very ragey very quickly.

1:52:34 - Leo Laporte
There's a corollary annoyance. I was thinking well, you could just, couldn't you go into security and give all file access, but you have to do that on an app by app basis. And there's a corollary that happens to me a lot and I'm kind of sympathized with your annoyance in this particular one, where applications say well, I need accessibility settings, so you have to manually go into accessibility and give me full accessibility. I don't even know Discord does that. I don't even know why they want that.

1:53:06 - Jason Snell
And screen sharing probably, or some other UI control. I don't want to give it to them. I get why Apple does it that way. Right, Because that is something that they have obviously a bar that if it doesn't clear the bar you are not going to get a little okay button.

1:53:23 - Andy Ihnatko
You actually have to do more labor in order to do this.

1:53:26 - Jason Snell
I get it Again. I really am not saying that. I think Apple has done an amazing job of making a fundamentally insecure operating system, built in another era, more secure. The software stuff also. I want to say, like the way they've done it, where they've got Mac App Store but then they've got stuff that is signed by the developer and you can have your permission set. So those are clear, and it's only the stuff that's unsigned, unaudited in any way, that you have to right click on it and choose open. That's really good too, because now you're limiting the threat level.

Somebody could still be talked into it, but it's a lot harder to do it. This is all good. I don't know. I just get a pervasive sense that Apple built this system once and they're still using it and the way that apps have followed suit is not what they anticipated and it needs a little. It needs a brush up. But anyway it is like again, fundamentally, this isn't. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying it's hard. The UX is hard, the idea of people skipping over permissions is hard, but it's hard. I think either way, and I don't want to say like things are more dangerous than they were in 2001 when OS X came out right, and they are trying to batten down all the hatches here, and I applaud them for it. I just wish that they would let their UX designers have another crack at it to make it a little bit better.

1:54:51 - Leo Laporte
You also probably install more new Macs and move stuff over more often than the average bear because you're doing reviews and stuff.

1:54:58 - Jason Snell
I do, but I mean that's why I stopped in. This migration thing is like, fundamentally, like Apple has done such a good job at making the iPhone experience easier. It used to be you bought an iPhone and transferring your stuff with a nightmare.

And it's so much better now. And I had that thought with the Mac, which is if you've got some, you know, and Macs like to be personalized Alex, I know, likes to use more vanilla Macs, but people love personalizing their Mac with utilities and stuff and putting things in the menu bar and then you get that moment where you finally got that fresh new Mac, you got an M3 Mac, ea and you do the migration and then this thing comes up in your face and you spend the next week clicking through OK's every time that they pop up and it's just, it's less fun and less nice and I wish they would grease the skids on the migration, because I do it more, it's true, so I see it more, but the fact is, anytime you do an update, you see it and I wish it was better.

1:55:48 - Leo Laporte
I guess that's why I don't do a migration. I want to clean, install.

1:55:52 - Jason Snell
Well that's the other way to go, although then you're installing the software and then it asks you for permission.

1:55:57 - Leo Laporte
It's just spread out more, that's all. Yeah, exactly.

1:56:00 - Jason Snell
Exactly what I'm saying is I'm not mad Apple, I'm just a little disappointed.

1:56:07 - Andy Lindsay
That's worse, and I admit I've never migrated a computer, so I don't that's. I realized I was like, why don't I ever see this? Yeah, you don't. I never do that. I always. I always start. I don't even migrate my phones. I go, I'm going to open my phone and I will install apps as I remember them, because otherwise I would have too many apps.

1:56:21 - Jason Snell
You still are getting the click, click, click.

1:56:24 - Andy Lindsay
You're just not doing it for 20 things at once, you're doing it one at a time and it's not when you've already bought the app, when you've already bought the app on the iPhone and you go back and it's got the little cloud with a little download. It's like a little gift from past me. Oh right, I do like that it does make it very easy.

1:56:41 - Leo Laporte
But again, with homebrew you can have a list of all the things you install and install it that way and it works quite well. I really like brew bundle. Here's a guy who I think might be losing access to his vision pro. His name is Scott Stein and he writes for CNET and he says Apple's iPhone spatial video looks amazing on vision pro. Is he allowed to write this? I tried to do.

1:57:07 - Jason Snell
I think he's one of those, like Joe Aniston and John Gruber. He's the last people who got advanced an advanced look at the videos.

1:57:14 - Leo Laporte
But this is. This is November 10th, so it's a current story.

1:57:17 - Jason Snell
But they just did it. They just did a round.

1:57:19 - Andy Ihnatko
Joe Aniston posted on her thanks and also on the most they said come on over to our place and strap this on Yep, and he said oh man, that looks great. Okay, I think Joe Aniston said that they actually had like a sushi, a sushi stuff. Yeah, that's what this guy says to sushi.

1:57:38 - Leo Laporte
He says I'm looking at a plate of sushi hovering in front of me in 3d the chef finishes off topics on yellow roll. You know I'd screw you guys. You know I'll never, ever get invited to this ever.

1:57:49 - Andy Ihnatko
Dr Tong's 3d house of content and I'll be honest with Scott and Joanna.

1:57:57 - Leo Laporte
I don't really Trust it when you say, oh look, how good this looks, Cause I think you're high on the free sushi, so you know I'll wait until it comes out.

1:58:07 - Andy Ihnatko
How about that? I don't know. I see, cause I know how well Apple controls everything. They would say what's more important? Having having this content lit brilliantly with hot, hot, hot lights for three or four hours, or making sure knowing dies because of like spoiled raw fish? I think they would go for the lighting.

1:58:29 - Leo Laporte
Exactly my point. I'm just jealous, I just live in a world of green envy of all these people get to go to these Apple events and get MacBook Pros with them. Three extremes sent to them for free and I earn the last bit of my hard earned savings. I'm not buying a vision pro. I don't care, I'm not buying one. I don't need to see this.

1:58:52 - Andy Lindsay
Yeah, but I think this does answer the question of people were making fun of the fact that people are going to shoot their home videos with a with a vision pro. The vision pro is capable of it and it potentially could shoot better footage, only because the interocular I bet you on the vision pro the interocular interaxial distance will match the interocular, which is what's not gonna happen with the phone. The phone is the lenses are too close together, so they're doing a lot of you know hocus pocus to you know little machine learning to open them those up a little bit. I think yeah.

1:59:28 - Jason Snell
That's what most of them do. It's from the wide right, it's the wide and the ultra wide, and so they have to do a center crop on the ultra wide in order to, which is why it's 1080p 30. I imagine that those cameras on the vision pro they're the same ones that do the pass through, so they are probably at the same width as your eyes, more or less, and my guess is they're also higher quality both of them.

1:59:48 - Andy Lindsay
And they're very similar to the distance that you saw here. This is the hydrogen phone that Red put out, and so that distance there is about the same. And I will say, while I haven't seen the Apple results, the and Andy can test to this. The results on this are pretty impressive. You know, like it's the 3D, the 3Dness is actually pretty good with what it has there and this one has a screen that can actually look at it. The. You know, I think that you'll see I mean my son's turning 16 in a couple of months, a couple of weeks, and I'm definitely shooting his, definitely gonna shoot it in 3D, just because I can.

2:00:25 - Leo Laporte
But I think that also so this requires 17 too it's not out yet and of course, a high end iPhone 15 pro 15 pro only yeah.

2:00:35 - Andy Lindsay
We had an event, yeah, last night, and I was pinging people do you have 15 pro? Do you have 15 pro? Do you have 15 pro? Like, I wanna shoot some footage there, So-.

2:00:41 - Jason Snell
Well, I started shooting this stuff and, and you know it, right now it's just a 1080p 30 video and the camera, but it's a, it's a Heath package and so it's got two streams in it. It's got, you know, left and right eye, essentially.

2:00:55 - Andy Lindsay
Well, and essentially it's one eye as a hero, which is the left eye, and the right eye typically is a. The right eye is a delta of the left eye, so it's being calculated. It was interesting about it.

2:01:06 - Jason Snell
The hackers are trying to unpack the format and they have failed thus far. I'm waiting for them to figure it out.

2:01:10 - Andy Lindsay
I do think that it would make. It would be great to be able. I really want both eyes, but there's a lot of magic going on there because in the format that it's in, it can travel through editing and all kinds of other things without you having to think about it, and then you know. So that's the big thing is it takes, and this is using the MVH HVAC format. So this is a format that isn't.

Apple didn't make this up, but it's so that. So I think it's gonna be. It's gonna be really interesting to see how this goes. But I think that there's the challenge really will be for Apple to think about is how they deal with, like, really creating big productions with it. But I'll be really interested to see if we see, for instance, them you know they use the iPhone this time for, you know for the, you know for the last Mac. But I'm really curious what they're gonna use next fall Like, are they gonna use, are they gonna shoot an iPhone within 3D, because you know again, you can produce a 10 ADP signal and then also have this, or they're gonna. You know what? Are they gonna shoot it with It'll?

2:02:10 - Andy Ihnatko
be interesting. Yeah, I'm keen to know. Like shooting with the iPhone 15 and other whatever the future version of the iPhone is like, is this going to be 3D? Or is this going to be like a 3D effect where it's like, oh, isn't that, isn't that sort of I mean, what's it? What's it going to feel like to the viewer?

Like, I keep my standard keeps coming back to a pair of Sony digital binoculars that I reviewed a few years ago, where it's like you are looking through binoculars at a sports event, at a theatrical event, at whatever, and and of course, you're not seeing optically while you're using these binoculars, you're actually seeing little screens that are built into the binoculars, but then, but you're recording video that is actually that is literally spaced, the exact spacing distance between your two eyes, and then, like when you're a day later, a year later, 10 years later, when you're re, when you're watching this again through the same binoculars, again it's being played back the same exact same interocular distance. You were actually watching it again through the same video screens that you had watched this live event before, and it is absolutely uncanny for any number of reasons.

So that's, why that's why, even with the, the oxygen phone that you they mentioned before, it's a cool 3D effect. It's really lovely, as are like the phones that you were holding before, when the, when they used to be a, when Android, when Google was trying to do their, had an idea that they're trying to get developers to support. It's like, but again, is it going to be the sort of thing where it's like, oh cool, it's kind of 3D-ish, or is it going to be, wow, this is so good that I'm upgrading my equipment and I'm going to make sure I want my friends to have this, to have stuff that can actually view this stuff correctly.

2:03:47 - Andy Lindsay
I think that I think that the issue, the issue is that people who there'll be a certain subset of people who, once they see the 3D, will feel like they have to have a headset and will want to shoot all lots and lots of things with it, and there'll be some said that just doesn't see it, don't see it and don't care. This is this is just check how long I've been through this. This is the Fuji W1, I think, yeah, the or W3, this is the newer one. This is the W3,. I have the W1 as well, and this was maybe 10 years ago or 15 years ago that these came out. Now you'll notice that these are inner, the inner. The distance between the lenses is the same as my eyes. Now, if you think about this the if Apple put you know another set here in some version in the future, you could almost get there. You could almost get there, you know, on the end of the phone, not quite, but you could almost get there.

2:04:39 - Andy Ihnatko
Hamsters will be blown away by the reality of this. I mean how they nailed the inner rock of the distance.

2:04:43 - Jason Snell
The people who tried this last week say that it's pretty good.

But I will point out, I think, an interesting thing Apple has done here, which is all of these 3D videos appear in a window. They're not trying to put it right up in your eyes like you're there. It appears in a window, so it's like you're looking through a window into a 3D space, and my guess is that in that context, something that is a little more gently 3D right Cause the parallax will just be less because the interocular distance isn't there. But they said that the effect is impressive and memory-like and, keeping in mind it's also 1080p 30, it's not. It's not like reality, not even like the pass through, where you are completely immersed in what you're seeing outside when you're wearing them. It's just not like that. So it's meant to be dream-like imagery, more like watching a 3D movie, and it sounds, based on their comments, that it's effective. But yeah, I do have that thought, which is at what point do they redesign the camera bump on the iPhone entirely in order to get those things as far apart as possible?

2:05:48 - Andy Lindsay
And if you look at this, this is the Canon lens that goes onto the R5, right? And so this is capturing two 4K 180s to one 8K sensor, and so this is when you get rid of that window, right, this is putting it into a space that's 3D and capturing what you're looking at, and so that's the, and that's getting much closer to what you can capture there. And again, I think that there's going to be, there's a lot of development and we'll see. There's gotta be new cameras coming out, because there's from somebody, because there's a, and everyone knows that this is the problem.

The cameras are really the problem, like so, and the one thing I will say is that that, shipping hundreds of millions of cameras that are, you know, over the next three years, apple's gonna ship hundreds of millions of of cameras that are capable of some kind of level of spatial capture, and that's a. It's gonna change the value proposition for the vision. You know the, because the hardest part we've had I mean, I've been developing content for headsets for the last decade and the problem that we have is the acquisition. The acquisition is super painful, like you know, and and it's always been hard, and, and I think that if, if Apple makes it easier, it's not enough. Like the phone is not gonna be a replacement for a professional system.

Yeah, not to the price, but it is going to wet your whistle.

2:07:18 - Jason Snell
Yeah, and then you like the NBA game or the MLS game or all of that. Right, that's the, that's the. I think gonna be one of the killer things about these headsets in terms of 3D. In there You're really gonna need good professional equipment that gives you the that that you know thing that blows you away.

2:07:32 - Andy Lindsay
And then then it's access. You know, and Apple can get that access Like this this Ozo that's right behind me, right here. You know we use that at an NBA game or a bunch of them, and when we put it at the score, at the score table, like right at right, at mid, at at center, and you could sit there and watch the game. It's amazing.

Like it was it was like you know you really, you really saw a different game than you, what you're used to watching on TV. The. The frame rate problem is is not trivial, so like, for instance, it's only doing 30 frames a second. In a window, 30 frames a second works great. As soon as you go to the, to the space, and you want to be in there, you want it to be a minimum. I mean, you really want it to be over 90 frames a second, which is Apple, what Apple's doing for those spaces, so that you feel like you're there. And that's a really hard problem to crack right now.

2:08:23 - Andy Ihnatko
What do you think the chances are that Apple can, that the Vision Pro can score on this? The. What I'm really excited about is the idea of not just simply hi. I'm shooting video in 3D of this thing that I'm watching and I'm probably trying to be as stable as possible because I don't want people to throw up because I'm making jerky like head movements while I'm doing this.

I'm more excited by the idea that I'm I happen to be wearing this device and maybe I'm doing word processing, maybe I'm catching up on email, but the fact that I'm moving through, like my office, while I'm using this device means that it's constantly taking in 3D surface data and geometry of the space I'm in, so that at some point in the future I can, either through NERF or whatever, all this data can just sort of, in the background, be creating a live model of what the space was like, so how we visited. But that that that's means much, much more interesting than oh, look, I can actually this person's holding out their hand and if I turn a little bit, I can see that there's a butterfly behind their hand. It's like okay, it's nice.

2:09:18 - Andy Lindsay
Yeah, I mean, I think that I think that just using the parallax you don't even need a stereo camera. The stereo camera does actually make it easier, but using just the parallax in a scene you can grab a lot of data. The problems that show up are like motion blur. Like motion blur is a real problem when it comes to photogrammetry and so NNERFs and all these other things is that you're not getting whole pixels, and so you have to turn that. You have to turn your frame rate up, and so that's a or your shutter speed up to be able to capture that. The thing, though, is that, you know, in some of the stuff that we've done, there is like, when you pull it off and here's, the thing that's gonna happen here is that there's where is the sweet spot? So the wider the sweet spot is, further away, the further the interaxial distance goes apart. So, when the interaxial distance is really close, like the iPhone, your sweet spot I know I don't know what it is because I haven't used it yet, but the sweet spot is probably four to eight feet, maybe five to 10 feet. That's where all the 3D is going to exist. All the things that are cool are going to live in that Cause. I know that from the hydrogen phone. That's where the 3D that you were going to see, that you were going to blow you away in a hydrogen phone, was five to 10 feet, like that was the window, and anything more than that starts to flatten out because the interaxial distance is too close. Now we've we've actually I've actually shot stuff where we put the cameras. It was really a big scene. It was a big open scene in Africa, of all places, and I literally put the cameras five feet apart from each other because we want to create this kind of forced 3D. Now that that'll make your eyes cross If anything gets closer than 20 feet, you know to you, but it makes it makes the scene feel very 3D, and so you can extend that out to make that actually happen. And so I think that the thing is is that we're going to see where that is.

But but I can see, like, for instance, when you think about a concert like, oh, I really loved. You know some again, you'd love to go see Taylor Swift with 70,000 people, but what if she sat right in front of you and played some of her songs and answered some questions? Then you can put your headset on and you get a live stream and you could, you know, be part of that whole thing. It may may not be the same, but you're also not sitting closer to the parking lot than the, than the stage, you know, and so so the thing is, is that you, you feel like you're sitting right in front of her, or you know, or you know any. You know Glenn Phillips from Toad, the Wets Bracket, which I, which he does a lot of live streams, or you know. Or Michael Van, you know my anyway. So the there's a lot of those folks that, if they, it'll be really, really great to see them and feel like you were sitting there and with the right frame rate and with everything else.

Now, that's not going to happen immediately, but you can see Apple taking those steps forward and I think that what's going to happen is the phone is going to get people excited about it and then you're going to end up with people wanting to shoot higher and higher level stuff. I still think, with the headset, apple's problem is not selling headsets for $3,500. Their problem is how fast can they make them? You know, like it's, it's not a, it's a, it's a supply problem. They'll sell as many as they can make for the first three years, and then they got to figure out what they're doing after that. But but I don't think, I think they're, they're, they're heavily limited by the headsets, are really hard to make. So they can make them pretty much any price because you, you can sell 200,000 of them. I mean, like they're going to sell 200,000 of them in the first week, like they'll, they'll all be sold out.

2:12:28 - Andy Ihnatko
That's why the first year is going to be a very abstract sort of set of marketing data and and and satisfaction data, because you're, I really do think that, for a long time, the only people buying these are people that are super, super hyped up to have this specific device and they don't care if it's not particularly useful, they don't care if it justifies $3,500. They want to have this top tier device that is supposedly an apple, an apple approach to augmented reality and virtual reality, which is not something they've had before, which is going to be something very different.

2:13:03 - Andy Lindsay
Yeah, and I think that also you have for a developer. You have a market of people who have a lot of free money, like you know. So so that you know, while, while you know it's not as big of a market, you've got a lot of people who will probably spend money on buying, you know, anything that looks remotely good for $15, they're going to buy, like you know. They're just going to be like I'm going to buy and put it on my headset because I already, because I want to see what my headset can do. You know that kind of thing. So that's going to be a different.

2:13:28 - Andy Ihnatko
I mean that and that's a great reason for, like Microsoft, to make sure the office suite works well not just as an iPad app that's running in virtuality mode, but as a specific experience.

But like what happens to like the makers of Ulysses or makers of like smaller apps, which is like how, what, how many years is it going to take before the amount of effort is going to take to make a four real virtual vision pro app is going to be worth all the time that they're going to have to put into it. I think that one of the most encouraging thing Apple has done is basically saying that it a it will run an iPad app just straight out, so you're, you're covered. If you b if you want to spend a little bit of time, you can tweak it so that it really looks like a vision pro app Not a great one, but it will look like it belongs there. And then level three, if you want to be super competitive and really justify that. This is why you need to create a VR experience for this. That's when there's going to be a lot of pain involved and a lot of I'm going to. I'm selling, I'm selling the, I'm selling the house, because I'm trying to sell something to 50,000 people.

2:14:29 - Jason Snell
Exactly Cause the volume is going to be so low. That here's what I am really worried about regarding vision pro software is Apple has made it clear this is basically an iPad, it will run iPad software. Except, as far as I know, they're still intending to do what they did with iPad software on the Mac, which is, let developers say I don't want it to be on the Mac, even if it runs fine, you know, and without any changes. And I'm not talking about catalyst, I'm talking about on Apple Silicon Macs you can just run the iPad app and it works and it's great.

And what's happened over time is most of those apps are not in the app store because they've unchecked the box. I don't know why they don't want to test it. They want to reserve the right to do a different version later, and my concern is that and you know my concern is that that's already starting to happen that iPad apps are just being removed from vision pro possibility, and that is not great, because you know I already struggle with perfectly good iPad apps that I'm not allowed, for some reason, to run on my Mac, even though I know that they can run. They just decided they're not going to do it, and that will be because the danger here is this thing launches and all that iPad compatibility is irrelevant because the apps don't work. And that's not great, not great.

2:15:45 - Andy Ihnatko
I think. Well, I think the reason for that is that, like, we've been talking a lot about all the below the line expenses and problems about developing software, and one of them is just simple user support, customer support and so I think the part of the problem there is that do I want to try to explain to people why a certain feature that we built for the iPad is not working correctly on their Mac, or do I really want to try to explain to them why it's so hard to select text in the vision pro, given that this is such a small slice of the people that are actually funding this app? Or do I simply click one checkbox and make all of that pain go away forever? I think that's a very tempting thing.

2:16:22 - Andy Lindsay
I think the challenge will be is that the larger companies will do it because they want to be part of that development pipeline and they're talking to Apple and everything else. The smaller companies, to your point, will not do it because they can't. And there'll be some point, if the platform is successful, that the smaller companies will have a lot of catch up and if that platform is successful and I think that I know a lot of people have concerns about the platform, but I think Apple is all in I think that they've only showed us about 5% of what it does and what it can do. I think they've kept most of their powder dry. They showed us just enough to have us start talking about it and they're slowly eking this out and I think that over the next year or two it's going to get pretty intense and I don't think that they're doing this halfway. They spent a decade and billions and billions of dollars on this platform and I don't think that it could be a huge mistake, but I think they're going to push it pretty hard.

2:17:14 - Andy Ihnatko
That's why this is so fascinating on every level that there is no assurance that this is going to be in any way that Apple can't even spin it as a kind of success. There's every possibility that it's going to sell to the people who are fascinated by this and then, after a year and a half, two years, all of the conversation amongst people who are interested in VR are going to say why the hell would I spend $2,500 even for this new, cheaper version of it, when Meta has an $800 version that does 90% of it and it does most of it actually better. If Apple can convince developers to create an emphatically VR slash AR sort of experience, if all they're saying is that you get cartoon windows through which you can run standard apps again, I can walk out of Best Buy with only like $500, $600 lighter and have a solution that actually works very well with the new hardware and we're not going to talk about all the details about why Apple's hardware is vastly superior but if that is the expectations that Apple has set for the first two or three years, they are going to struggle. And if all the iPad could do was run like a sort of bastardized version of Mac apps or sort of like a fattened version of iPhone apps. It would also have struggled as opposed to saying, well, no, this is a brand new thing, it's not even like a touchscreen desktop computer. This is going to be an iPad, and the people who develop for this platform are going to understand how to make this make sense for people who want to spend $500 on the best mobile experience ever and they want to get it without having to spend $1,200 for a foldable or something like that. So again, there's a lot of risk here.

I don't know if Apple has enough runway to do what they did with the iPhone, which is to say that maybe part of it is they are keeping their powder dry. Maybe part of it is that this was literally everything that's working, that's stable enough that they could demo it even in a very restricted environment, and somewhere there's a big football field-sized lightboard in the conference room and they're crossing things off saying maybe we can get that they're working in 2025. We're not going to have that at launch. We're not going to have that at launch. We'll be lucky now if we can get that done in version 3 of the hardware across that off. So that's why I want this to win. I want anything to be successful.

I'm fascinated that a company as big as Apple is taking I think, maybe for the first time a really huge and serious risk on a product that could get a lot of applause from people who are looking at it academically. But then everybody who actually wants something that does stuff that's relatable to their lives are saying, wow, yeah, I went in for the demo at the Apple store. That looked really cool. Of course, there's no reason why I'm spending even $1,200 for the third version of the cheap one of that. But wow, that was a hell of a demo, wasn't it? It almost felt like I was really flying. Anyway, so I'm buying a new iPad.

2:20:12 - Leo Laporte
Let's take a break and then your picks of the week coming up next. This episode of MacBreak Weekly is brought to you by our good friends at ITProTV, now known as ACI Learning. ACI Learning covers all your audit, cybersecurity and information technology training needs. You already know the name ITProTV from many ads on the network. Now part of ACI Learning, ITPro has expanded its capabilities, providing more support for IT teams. ACI keeps its courses current, including MSCloud, aws, comptia and so on. It teams significantly benefit from ITPro. ACI Learning kept all the fun, all the personality of ITProTV, and amplified their robust solutions for all your training needs. Let your team be entertained while they train, with short format content and over 7,200 hours to choose from. The audience asked and ACI delivered. Just in time to wrap up your annual CPE, aci is re-releasing their entire audit catalog in shorter, easier to digest versions. Oh, they must have been working on this for a while. That means your CPE exams for each course will now be faster too. Check out their new audit courses and lab releases this month, including Certified Information Systems Auditor and CompTIA Security Plus. Get the full scoop on how ACI can help you navigate the audit world by visiting acilarningcom slash blog, and don't miss out on these upcoming audit webinars. They're available to watch live or on demand.

The impact of AI on e-learning is coming up, november 16th. And then all things cybersecurity with Bow Bullock, november 30th. Itprotv, which is now ACI Learning, keeps your business from risking redundancy via the most up-to-date certifications and courses available. It provides you with a personal account manager to make sure you're not wasting anyone's time. Your account manager will work with you to ensure your team only focuses on the skills that matter to your organization, so that you can leave unnecessary training behind. And, of course, aci Learning is ISO certified, so you know you're receiving the best world-class training that your team deserves. Give your IT team the best. Give them up to date with the speed of technology. Visit Twit listeners will receive a free trial and as much as 65% off an IT provider price solution plan. This account, of course, based on the size of your team, so fill out the form and find out how much you'll save. We thank them so much for their support All year long studio sponsors and we really, really appreciate it. Jason Snell Pick of the Week, my friend.

2:22:59 - Jason Snell
New version of RetroBatch from FlyingMeet Software.

2:23:02 - Leo Laporte
Yes, another thing I need to install in the background and give permission to yeah, give it, give it.

2:23:07 - Jason Snell
Do it. Retrobatch 2.0. It is an amazing image processing utility, especially for batch images, and it basically lets you set up all sorts of logic and very specific image things, think about like Photoshop plugins, and you can set them up in a whole like workflow and then you drag your images on and it'll do things like if it's vertical, do this, if it's horizontal, do this. Version 2.0, oh, you can make droplets, so you can. I have some droplets for like podcast show art, where you drag on the full quality. One automatically does all the sizing to all the different versions, saves out different JPEGs at the right quality level with the right sizes. It is, if you process a lot of images, such a great utility. It's a Mac only utility from FlyingMeet. They are a great indie developer, I love. Flyingmeet yes.

And version 2.0 includes a bunch of new nodes for automation, including a bunch of AI, ml stuff, so like there's a super res node. So if you've got a low resolution image and you want it to be bigger and keeping in mind, they use this logic so you could be like I need to be 3000 pixels wide by 3000 pixels high. This you gave me a 1500 by 1500. You put super resolution in there and it won't just resize it, it will ML resize it, which means it will look a lot better at the new size. There is a film grain. There's a GPS where you can batch, assign GPS coordinates, photos export for the photos app. There's just a whole bunch of new nodes that make it even more useful. And again, if you're somebody who ever is like oh, I need to process these 50 images the great thing about retro badge you build your little workflow and then you never have to do those individual processing tasks again. You just drag it on. Boom, it's done. They're great, it's a great app.

2:24:53 - Leo Laporte
And Gus is the guy that does acorn, so you know he really this is. They know what they're doing.

2:24:57 - Jason Snell
This is like acorn automation, so that you can. You don't even need the app anymore. You just use all the little bits. If you need to edit pixels, you use acorn or Photoshop or whatever, but retro batch is for mass processing. It's so clever. I feel like if you are listening and you're like that is for me, then it's for you. You'll know it. If you ever have sat there and said I got to crank through a hundred or what I do, which is I have every three months I have any image I need to do like 15 steps with and I'm like, okay, what are the all the steps? And I just built a workflow for it and I don't have to ask myself that question now. I just drag it on, does all the 15 steps and I'm done.

2:25:36 - Leo Laporte
It's great 99% of the time when I open acorn, it's to do this. So I really I should probably I was building Photoshop actions and stuff.

2:25:47 - Jason Snell
You can do a lot of stuff with Photoshop actions, but it doesn't work the way my brain works because it's trying to like expose. This is actually a lot like audio hijack, where you've got individual blocks in a tree and they just kind of it kind of passes the image from place to place. You can have it use that logic, so like it doesn't have to be one size fits all, which is really nice it does. It can behave differently based on the the you know what your image is, which is really very clever, so it's a great utility. If you're past batch processing images A lot of people work on the web probably have to deal with this a lot, where they've got to supply like three different versions of an image. Or if you're in broadcast, it's probably a thing you have to do from time to time have different versions and different formats and different sizes, and retro batch will do it. It's great.

2:26:30 - Andy Lindsay
Does it do curves and levels? It's like filters.

2:26:34 - Jason Snell
I think maybe it does, but I never. I never automate that in retro batch, so I don't know, but it's it's. That's. The whole idea is that it'll do a lot of Photoshop things. It might not do curves and levels, I don't know.

2:26:49 - Leo Laporte
It does color profiles. Yeah, I wonder, that's interesting.

2:26:54 - Jason Snell
But it's a lot. I mean, for me it's a lot of. Is it horizontal, is it vertical? I need, I need to take this ping and resize it three different ways and save those out as JPEGs at different levels of quality, with this file name in this place, and it just, it just does it.

2:27:11 - Leo Laporte
It's fully Apple scriptable too, which is really cool. Sure, yeah, yeah, andy, and I go pick of the week.

2:27:19 - Andy Ihnatko
Well, everybody, the holiday season is upon us and oh, it must be time for another opera.

2:27:24 - Leo Laporte

2:27:25 - Andy Ihnatko
No, no, no. I mean just. Many of us are, as usual, eager to pick up the best tech gifts at a price that just can't miss. Well, in 2023, the hottest store for tech bargains is a place called the Atlantic Ocean. Oh no.

2:27:40 - Leo Laporte
Well, here it is on Google Maps.

2:27:42 - Andy Ihnatko
Exactly. I want to make sure people could get to it, because there's only one location, unfortunately, but I think it's what they call a megastore, because it has, like a lot of square footage. It's where I picked up this Apple watch on September. Yeah, this is I'm being able to.

2:27:58 - Leo Laporte
Was it on a seashore or was it actually in the ocean it was.

2:28:02 - Andy Ihnatko
It was in the ocean. It was like under four feet of water. Amazing.

I saw it bobbing along and like and I'll be damned dude Actually like I don't know how long was it. It was a hot, it was like the last really good beach day, so I'm guessing that someone had lost it Like there's like three or four in the afternoon. I'm guessing someone lost it like a few hours earlier and I but again it let right. So basically more than 30 minutes, let's say it's probably several hours lit right up, everything works just fine. Now, I did, I did do everything correctly. I actually like did a walk all the way up and down the beach asking if anybody lost.

I called it a fitness tracker because of someone said hey, does anybody want a free Apple watch? That I found just by saying, oh yes, I lost it. Just say, oh yes, I lost that. But no, no one had recently lost something. I left my left, the left, the information with the local police in case someone did that. Put, put, put posts on all the social media for all the communities. After two months, not a peep. So I reset it to factory settings and now it is my Apple I have to have to admit, the reviews and questions and answers about the Atlantic Ocean are very interesting.

2:29:10 - Leo Laporte
Is the food here any good? I heard it's all raw. Are there any recycling bids? Is it a family friendly location? Only outside the Bermuda Triangle Is there water? I think so. Is there a grocery store nearby? Are people under 18 allowed to visit?

2:29:34 - Andy Ihnatko
and on and on user generated content that makes Google Maps so valuable and the Titan that it is for information.

2:29:40 - Leo Laporte
Did you just search for Atlantic Ocean? Is that all you do?

2:29:44 - Andy Ihnatko
I was shocked to find that there is actually a place in Google Maps called the Atlantic Ocean.

2:29:48 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, and you can get directions Maybe. Now I'm curious if I want to come from my house to the. Oh, can't do calculate directions. Maybe I have to be somewhere else, I don't know. New York City.

2:30:03 - Andy Ihnatko
So, yes, I thought I'd share that story, but also to say a couple of things. The Snoopy watch face, like this, is the reason why, like I all, there are all the reasons why I want an Apple watch, even though I haven't used an Android phone. Now, the Snoopy watch face is at least 50% of the reason, because I was much rather be able to look at my watch.

2:30:24 - Leo Laporte
There's like 300 different images. It's amazing and it's not images.

2:30:32 - Andy Ihnatko
It's like a second or second half of hybrid animation based on, like the mid 70s version of Snoopy and Woodstock. It's correct for the time where it's like at night there's like sleepy time stuff. At nine o'clock Snoopy, basically, is in an office attire, is sitting at a desk and about to write and do stuff. If it interacts with, like the hands whatever the hands of the time are it is like I almost waste. I almost waste time wanting to see another like Snoopy cartoon. Now, oh, look, see these trying to. He's gotten this coaching uniform on. He's trying to get Woodstock to kick the football.

2:31:05 - Leo Laporte
But the football every time you lift right, it gives you a new Snoopy.

2:31:10 - Andy Ihnatko
Almost and they're very okay. And here's one I haven't seen before. Not a lot of daily for like, yeah, there's so many of them.

2:31:16 - Leo Laporte
Here he's. He's sitting on the minute hand and Woodstock's visit. You don't have my over the shoulder, oh well, yeah, it's cool.

2:31:24 - Andy Ihnatko
It is just so, bro. I think we talked about it like with the new OS, but I can't. I now that I actually have it on my wrist. Every single day it provokes joy. Every single time I like need to check. You know what makes me happy.

2:31:36 - Leo Laporte
Calvin and Hobbes. Can we, can we talk? Can we talk to Mr Burke? Is it breathed, breathed, berkeley, bill Watterson. Watterson, that's who it is. It's not to actually, I wouldn't mind that. There we go, oh God yeah.

2:31:52 - Andy Ihnatko
Our stuff. Tiger dog. He is not giving us a custom animated, no, I know.

2:31:56 - Leo Laporte
That's the last thing Watterson's going to do. It also snows, snoopy sleeping. Oh there he is fishing off the minute hand and he caught Woodstock, and he's not happy about that either. Yeah, every time you do it there's something else, always jumping into a pile of leaves because it's autumn, do they? Do they update this, or is it just the ones that it came?

2:32:15 - Andy Ihnatko
with I don't know GQ had an interview with, like the team at creative associates, the company that Charles Schultz created for his own, for the Snoopy characters in the business, and the team at Apple that created this and just it was such a technical achievement it's them in love.

It absolutely is. Yeah, it wasn't just like hey look, we did the Mickey Mouse watch face, we chose a picture to put behind the hands and for extra flair we have him tapping his foot Like no, this is like almost like 140, they said something like 140 plus animations. You multiply that by like a couple of seconds, that's almost a full act of a new peanut special, I'd settle for Bloom County, the Lopez, the Penguin action.

I'd be happy for that too, for this at this level of quality, absolutely, oh yeah, the only, the only part of my recommendation is that. So I put it in a case of the Spigeons rugged armor pro. The only, the only minor complaint that I don't that I don't fault Apple for is just that every single Apple watch looks like every other Apple watch and because it's like the most popular fitness wearable, it's like it, it, it's like it. I just don't want to. I don't want this to look like every single other thing Also like.

I appreciate the fact that I am of almost exactly average height for an American male and that puts like the fit, that's puts like the watch at exactly doorknob height of every room I enter and exit. So $20, $25 for a case that makes it look a little bit nicer to me, makes it look like the Casio G shock, which I like, and also protects me from damaging this thing that I paid all of zero for. Yeah, it's, it still blows me what a testimony to the engineering of this device that again, it was in the salt water, it was in the ocean for several hours and it lit right up as soon as I poked it out of there.

2:34:02 - Leo Laporte
I'll never forget the the year I gave my kids a drum kit. If only they'd had this Roland in back in the day. Alex Lindsay, your pick of the week.

2:34:16 - Andy Lindsay
I got this. The story was I, my daughter, had decided my daughter plays the bass, the guitar and the keyboard and she's in a band. She's the whole band, yeah. Well, they didn't have a drummer in the band and she's like well, I can figure this out.

And so she's she's trying to do, trying to like spend a little time after school with the drum kit there, and I I pinged a. I pinged a friend of mine, john Tautoulos, and I said he's in a band too and he knows a lot about audio. And I was like I need, I need a drum kit for it. And he said well, and he put me in touch with somebody at full compass. And then they, we talked back and forth and and and I ended up buying this, this drum kit, and I am just amazed at the technology Like it. So she put it all together herself, but I sat down and kind of dinged on it. And number one is you put the headphones on.

2:35:09 - Leo Laporte
We should mention it's fully electronic.

2:35:11 - Andy Lindsay
You don't hear it in the rest of the house All you hear when she's playing is now here's what she's doing with it to learn how to play the drums and she's got a gig tomorrow night, oh my God. So she's like. She went from like she's only had it for like two, two, two weeks, you know like, and she's got a gig next and you share her something along. She's been playing like three or four hours a day on this thing and trying to figure out, and she took me taking some lessons at school of rock and doing anything. But she comes back and plays. So she takes, she takes songs, the songs that she needs to learn, and she runs it through this app that I've recommended in the past called Moises.

Moises separates out all the tracks for her, so she can either just listen to the drums or she can remove the drums. She then Bluetooth her iPhone to the, to the drum kit, and then she can play along with her without the drum track while she's, and so she hears it. All we hear is and she's hearing herself playing with the song, and if she wants to play it for us, it's got a little output to her amp so she can play it for us, so we can hear it, but in general it's just quiet and she's learning the way. Now she's going to go play the gig in a real with a real. You know the full drum set.

But the point is is that, is that she's able to, she's learning at breakneck speed. And I don't know, I was just. I brought it, only brought it up because I was just like the technology today, like I'm not, I'm not impressed with technology that often and I know this has been private around for a long time, but the thought that and she's in the corner of our like she's behind where the TV is.

Like it's, not like she's like, doesn't, like, she's, you know, and everyone anyone who's ever bought drums for their kids, as Leo pointed out, knows usually it's like do you have a garage or a or a basement or a barn somewhere along the bar way to to put them in? And it's, it's not, it hasn't been an issue at all. And then when her friends come over, her friends come over to cause she's got the drum kit, your drum kit is where you rehearse, right and so, and so the, so she's got the drum kits. Her friends, her friends, her, the rest of the band comes over to our house and then she just plugs it into an amp and now she's able to play the drums with the amp, with the, with with the other, the rest of the, the band members, and so it's a. Anyway, I was just the whole mixture of the iPhone with the electronic drums, with the, being able to play with the songs and having it not be a big issue for us. I was, I, anyway, I just it's an amazing piece of piece of hardware.

2:37:33 - Leo Laporte
So I think all over the country people will be buying the Roland TD 07 KV drum kit for a mirror 999. Yeah, it was expensive.

2:37:44 - Andy Lindsay
But you know, you, you only do that when you have a child that spends, you know, anywhere from two to four hours a day rehearsing, you know.

2:37:52 - Leo Laporte
Oh no, this is the best thousand you could spend. This is awesome.

2:37:54 - Andy Lindsay
You just pour gasoline on that, like you. Just, you know it's not like, it's not like she, she, she lets everything hang. You know like, just sit there.

2:38:01 - Leo Laporte
Sheila E did not say to her daughter no, you're not getting a drum kit, You're learning the trumpet.

2:38:06 - Andy Lindsay
She gave her a drum kit and that's what it takes, but it just it, just when you see someone working that hard at it, you're like, let me just, let me just hand you all the fuel.

2:38:14 - Leo Laporte
Pete Escavito didn't say to Sheila E, you can't have a drum kit, you need to be a accountant. No, he gave her a drum kit. So you are generating the next generation of great drummers right in your own home.

2:38:26 - Andy Lindsay
I don't know. I think she's, she's, she's almost got enough. If you start singing she'll, she'll have the whole band.

2:38:31 - Leo Laporte
I think, honestly, it's a great thing for kids to have something that can hit really hard all the time. It just whether they whether they, you know follow it or not. It's.

2:38:41 - Andy Lindsay
And, by the way, this is all MIDI as well. So the next step is to get her logic so she can, because now she can, she could theoretically be in it. She could play the drums, yeah, or just play the drums that she wants into logic directly.

2:38:57 - Leo Laporte
So they have put in the discord picture of her future job playing. One is a one man band out there in the. No, she's not, she's also she's also.

2:39:08 - Andy Lindsay
I mean she's also getting straight A's in engineering.

2:39:12 - Leo Laporte
Oh, I love your kids. They are the best kids ever you know. Imagine having Alex Lindsay as a pop.

2:39:19 - Andy Lindsay
You get an idea. I don't know if I have anything to do with it. I think it's her moment now, Like I think that they're just really impressive.

2:39:25 - Leo Laporte
Hey, we should mention that Renee Richie fans Renee is finally coming back to the network November 16th. This Thursday we're doing an AMA with YouTube's creator liaison, former host on MacBreak Weekly, jason, you wouldn't know him, he was before your time.

2:39:43 - Jason Snell
Never heard of him.

2:39:45 - Leo Laporte
But we're really thrilled that we're going to get Renee back in our studios Thursday 9am Pacific that is, noon Eastern and you know he is the greatest, one of the greatest guys out there and his new job actually is amazing and he's doing such a good job. So if you have questions for Renee, if you're in our club, leave some questions. If you're not in our club, this would be a very good excuse to join. Seven bucks a month, $84 a year. There's family plans and corporate plans too, and the club gives you access to all the shows without ads shows we don't do anywhere else as well, and the special events that we put together. It also gives you access to a discord that is par excellence I mean without equal. It's so much fun to hang out in there and it helps us most importantly, from at least my point of view keeps lights on and keeps us making shows. That's become more and more important to our bottom line. So I thank you in advance. Seven bucks a month. Twittv slash club.

We do Mac break weekly every Tuesday, 11am Pacific, 2pm Eastern time, 1900 UTC. You can watch it live If you're in the club. We put it in the club twits, a discord stage, and we, and I'm happy to say that we have decided that we will continue to stream it on YouTube live for everybody. No more reruns and no more inter show chit chat, but the shows themselves will be streaming. If you go to youtubecom slash twit, you can watch us do it live and we're keeping the audio streams alive too and tune in and elsewhere, so you will be able to watch or listen live at that time.

But of course, most people prefer to listen or watch at their leisure and that's why we are a podcast. You can go to twittv slash mbw to listen or download any audio or video version of our shows. There's also a YouTube channel for Mac break, weekly, of course, and I might add, the best way to do this and I encourage you to do so is to subscribe and a pocket casts or Apple podcasts, whatever you like to use, subscribe, and that way you'll get it automatically. Actually, if you want, with Apple podcasts, they, if you don't listen to every show, they turn off the downloads. So I just found that out. I guess it's nice because it'll download us in the background. You'll always have a copy or two of the show for you. Wow, jason's now picked. I mean, renee, richie picked you up at the Montreal airport. That's cool he did.

2:42:18 - Jason Snell
That is that is a nice guy. Yeah, if he picks you up at the airport when you're visiting his city.

2:42:23 - Leo Laporte
He's one of the nicest guys ever.

2:42:25 - Jason Snell
I just I know even among Canadians, who are generally pretty nice. Yeah, anyway, he's a nice.

2:42:30 - Leo Laporte
Canadian, which is like doubling down on all of that. I know right, Jason's now six colors Dot com. I think don't you have a show called a hat on the hat?

2:42:42 - Jason Snell
No, I don't. I have many, but that's not one of them. I'll plug.

If I didn't do this last, I'll plug NASA vending machine, my show about what Dan Moran and I watch for all mankind, which is back on Apple TV plus, which is a fun show about disasters happening in outer space, it seems. And also there are vending machines usually and or sometimes, and they sometimes are important. So we named our show after the vending machine and then spent a whole season with no vending machines. We were very frustrated. Are there vending machines in season four? Maybe?

2:43:13 - Leo Laporte
it just launched. Anyway, check it out, it just launched. How exciting.

2:43:16 - Jason Snell
This is episode one of this season they mentioned there's a whole like story, childhood tale about a vending machine. So, I think they have gotten our vibe.

2:43:25 - Leo Laporte
They sent our vibe. Now they sensed it, yeah.

2:43:27 - Jason Snell
So that's on the incomparable. You can check it out Of course. We're the only podcast named NASA vending machine.

2:43:32 - Leo Laporte
So find it.

2:43:33 - Jason Snell
Find it. Yeah, ask for it by name.

2:43:35 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, and if you go to sixcolorscom slash Jason, you can see all the other multitude of shows. So many things. We're so glad you join us every Tuesday though. Thank you, jason, appreciate it. Thank you, andy, and I coach GBH is calling. When are you going to?

2:43:50 - Andy Ihnatko
be on. I'm off next week, but I'm on. I'm back on Thanksgiving week the day before Thanks. The day after Thanksgiving, I believe, we call that Black Friday. We call that the day that we stay home and try to become more spiritual in nature. Oh, that's nice, Thoughtful, contemplative, and also enjoy the rent. Enjoy viral videos of people throwing elbows to get $70, 80 inch HDR TVs.

2:44:22 - Leo Laporte
We look forward to it. Thank you, andrew. Thank you, office hoursglobal is the place to see Alex Lindsay pretty much anytime, but Tuesday morning, because he's here. What's going on in office hours?

2:44:34 - Andy Lindsay
We just we took this morning. Actually Tyler Stallman, who's an incredible YouTuber and on Twitter as well, joined me and the panel and we went through the whole Apple event and tried to geek out on every item that we could find. So like we were like this is this and what is this? Oh, that looks like fun, highlighting it and talking about it. So Tyler had already done a video that's really good on YouTube that you should check out. But we went through it and just piece by piece, we're like looking at, like what is this image and what is like, what is this tool? And talking about what they do and why they're useful. So it was a super heavy geek out this morning. So definitely check that out.

And also, if you are listening to Gray Matter, we had Tessian Anderson, reb Anderson, who is at the Green Gulch, usually at Green Gulch Zen Center. I've been following that guy for 25 years. Oh, he's a monk. I got him on the show. He is just the most interesting person to listen, to talk to. I don't know I don't go to Green Gulch that often, but I, every time I see that he's going to speak, speaking on like on a Sunday talk or whatever, I make my way down there the tea is really good, by the way but I make my way down there and I watch him and he just gets me and it's nothing specific he says, but my brain gets going, you know, every time I listen to him and so I spent the whole last year trying to get him to be on the show and he just finally. We finally got it all to work and really great interview on on on gray matter Show tension, reb Anderson.

2:46:04 - Leo Laporte
Now, if you want to find out about gray matter, go to gray mattershow. That is the interview show that Alex produces for Michael Krasny, and it's really got great stuff on it. Thank you, alex. Thanks to all of heraldotravera Come on, thanks. That one I have to listen to too.

2:46:23 - Andy Lindsay
Thanks to all of you. The best interview. I just want to say wait just one second. That is the best interview of heraldotravera ever. Obviously, you will. You will have a different opinion of heraldotravera after you listen to it, like I. I was like I don't know why we're even interviewing this guy and I was. I walked away from it going what an interesting dude you know, and so like it's a very very different.

But he really dug. But he's much more complex than what he what we think of him as and you know I was. You know it's really. It's really worth listening to it. It's really fascinating. Michael's obviously Michael Krasny's got some skills. You know it's the people he talks to too, are fantastic.

2:46:59 - Leo Laporte
Thank you everybody for joining us. I hope you have a wonderful week. I will not be back next week. Will I be back? I will be back. It's very confusing. I will be gone this weekend for ask the tech guys and twit. Devindo Hardware will be filling in for me on Twitter and Mike is going to do ask the tech guys. I'll be back next Tuesday and Wednesday and then I'm going on a retreat of all things, not a Buddhist retreat, but I don't know. I don't exactly know what to expect, but they all I know is I can't bring any technology, including my Apple watch, my iPhone, my computer. They all have to be left behind. So how long are you gone? I do Too long 11 days.

It's a seven day retreat. And then they. And then they say but you can't do anything for another two days afterwards because you're going to be shaking.

2:47:45 - Andy Ihnatko
So is this like? Is this like the game? Are you going to be like not knowing what's real and what's been set up by the channel organization? That is yeah.

2:47:52 - Leo Laporte
Lisa did it a few weeks ago, but she refuses to tell me anything. Yeah, so it's going to be interesting. Some of our staff has done it too. It's, it's a, you know it's a. It's a human potential movement kind of trans personal jivey thing I think. I don't know, we'll see, but. But I think I need help and maybe they can help me.

2:48:16 - Andy Lindsay
You know I did. I did a whole slew of those in the when I was 19, 19, 22 and I was I had. They were very useful.

2:48:23 - Leo Laporte
There's no ayahuasca in this one, unfortunately, this one. Nothing, no drugs, no, no, nothing, just yourself, just you. That's the problem.

2:48:33 - Andy Lindsay
And conversation yeah, me and 14 people. I've never met before.

2:48:40 - Leo Laporte
Should be. Should be great, anyway. So that means I will not be here in two weeks. Have a great Thanksgiving. We will talk to you before then and I will be back. I'll see you guys well next week. I don't even know, I'm saying anything. I guess, for people who listen to the other shows, that's where I am. Thank you everybody. Have a great week. Now it is my sad but solemn duty to tell you to get back to work because break time is over.

2:49:05 - Mikah Sargent
Oh, hey, that's a really nice iPhone you have there. You totally picked the right color. Hey, since you do use an iPhone and maybe use an iPad or an Apple watch or an Apple TV, well, you should check out iOS today. Just to show that I, micah Sargent, and my co-host, rosemary Orchard, host every Tuesday right here on the Twit network. It covers all things iOS tvOS, homepodOS, watchOS, iPadOS it's all the OS's that Apple has on offer and we'd love to give you tips and tricks about making the most of those devices, checking out great apps and services and answering your tech questions. I hope you check it out.

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