Windows Weekly Episode 830 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:00:00):
It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul Throt and Richard Campbell are here. We have been covering the Microsoft Build Conference. Did the keynote yesterday. The keynote today, Paul and Richard's. Thoughts about Microsoft's huge push into ai, AI everywhere. Coming up next on Windows Weekly

Richard Campbell (00:00:21):
Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is Tweet.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:00:33):
This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thro and Richard Campbell. This is episode 830, recorded Wednesday, May 24th. 2023. Windows is my co-pilot. Windows Weekly is brought to you by Lookout. Whether on a device or in the cloud. Your business data is always on the move. Minimize risk, increase visibility, and ensure compliance with lookouts Unified platform. Visit today and by Miro. Miro is your team's online workspace to connect, collaborate, and create together. Tap into a way to map processes, systems, and plans with the whole team. Get your first three boards for free to start creating your best work yet at It's time for Windows Weekly, the show. We cover the latest news from Microsoft, and it just so happens Microsoft Build is in going on right now, and so there is a little bit of news. Hello, Paul Throt from thro hello com. Hello to Richard Campbell of Run As Radio. Both Paul and Richard have been with me. All morning as we watch day two of the keynote we watched Panos Pane get screwed, basically. That's a theory, right?

Richard Campbell (00:01:53):
Yeah, that's a speculation.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:01:55):
So let, let's get the gossip outta the way then we'll get to the, the content. Yeah. Yeah. What happens? I mean, yeah, you can find the news anywhere. Here's some speculation. <Laugh> <laugh>, you know, Microsoft reaches out to journalists and bloggers and whatnot ahead of the show and says, Hey, here's, you know, can you, will you agree to win Embargo? And yeah, of course. And then a few days later, they said, Hey, actually there's gonna be two embargoes. There's gonna be one on day, one on Tuesday, and then there's gonna be a separate one specifically for Windows, is how they phrased it for Wednesday. Okay, cool. And then they, you know, you see the, the show sessions appear and you can see what's going on. You can see there's a keynote on both days, which they typically do do for, for Build.

And then right at the line, and I, I, you know, twit contacted us, said, Hey, do you guys want to be, you know, peer live and cover the events? And I sort of felt like I wouldn't have much to offer for the first day AI type cloud stuff. And Richard obviously does. So he did that. And then we all did today's thing, which was really Microsoft 365, but right before the event Microsoft contacted everyone and said, Hey change of plans. There's still gonna two keynotes, but all of the embargoes we're go will be at one time on Tuesday, not Wednesday. So we're gonna announce all of the window stuff on Tuesday, not Wednesday too. Okay. <laugh>. So I contacted Leo and I said, I don't know if this changes anything, you know, and it, we kind of agreed that it didn't, and so whatever.

I'm actually glad we did both days. They were both very different in content. Right. But it looks like Panos basically ended up recapping day one. Panos talk was so awful, and it was literally a recap of what they already talked about in the day. One keynote about Windows. That's what it was. And he kept, he even played the same exact videos. I I, I thought, you know, maybe I, my gut feeling was, and before we saw the shows, was he, it was more material than they could do. And so they said, look, we'll announce it and then they'll provide more detail on debt on day two. And they absolutely did not not until the very end when Stevie came out.

Richard Campbell (00:03:58):

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:03:59):
We never, and so, yeah, in that sense, I, I, we don't know this for a fact, but it does really feel like he got kind of screwed over and we don't know why, but they decided that they were gonna do all this news. Maybe they felt there would be no news cycle on day two. Right. That from the mainstream media might type approach be. Yeah. They're one shop. Microsoft has like, because you know, apple, Google do a big, it's a marketing keynote is what it is. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And maybe they were like, look, we get a ride that train. And if we don't, no one's gonna pay attention to the stuff we're doing with Windows. Well, let's start, let's start with yesterday. Let's start with Tuesday. Cuz you were saying Richard, that's the best keynote you've seen in a long time.

Richard Campbell (00:04:35):
For a de Yeah. For a dev show, definitely. Yeah. Just because it was focused sound,

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:04:39):
You know, Saja Nadella came out in, in, you know, a, a hoodie, believe it or not, <laugh> Yeah. And was prancing around the stage with lots of energy, did not kind of devolve into his normal corporate speak, but really, I think positioned the whole show as, look, we're gonna show you co-pilot. I've got, we've got 50 plus announcements to talk about with co-pilot. I'm gonna tell you about five. It is gonna be an AI show. And I think he did a good job of that was on and off. Yeah. Very quickly. Got the job done. It was not the usual corporate boring speech.

Richard Campbell (00:05:14):
It certainly didn't drag on. I mean, I'm, I'm afraid Kevin Scott, who we don't normally see on stage,

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:05:19):
I've never seen him on stage. <Laugh>.

Richard Campbell (00:05:20):
That's very rare. And he, he went over, there was supposed to be a 30 minute break in that keynote. Oh. And he was 20

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:05:28):
Between the first part and Scott Goose

Richard Campbell (00:05:31):
Part. Right. Yeah. They, they basically absorbed the entire

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:05:33):
Part. Well, that explains it cuz it felt like after the, the, he rambled and then, and then all of a sudden, and let's show you some code. It was a very odd kind of that's right. Jump into code. Well, that's how they usually split it up. Usually the second half is coding, whatever. It's Right. It's usually code. And and yeah, it, it felt like one giant thing. It, today's one over two, by the way. Right. on the schedule today was supposed to end by 40 minutes ago, you know, one 30 my time mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And it went right up to 10 of, I mean, it went over by 20 minutes.

Richard Campbell (00:06:04):
Interesting. Yeah. Which makes you wonder if they couldn't have just shortened up Panos as pieces. And Thank you very much. Hope you saw the great announcement. Skip, let me bring out the, the stuff, right. Yeah. I know you're supposed to do 15, but like, let it go. Like I've been involved in, in keynotes like that where Right. You know, you, you practiced nine minutes and then day of when you went to go on stage, you said you get six. Yeah. Right. Like, that's just sort of reality. So Sure. As much as I, I appreciate both sets of keynotes had clear themes, and that is, again, Microsoft makes too many things. It is very strange for them to be this clear. Right. but yeah, I don't know why they were so slack on time.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:06:46):
They had a real story to tell this time. And the story of course is AI everywhere. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and, and, and Ritz, what's great for them is this is a, especially for the developer, a story that no one else, especially Linux, which has been really challenging can, can offer this kind of development environment for ai. Yeah, you're right. I mean, I, you could use Visual Studio code on Linux, I guess. I mean, I, I, I think a lot of the stuff would work on Linux, but mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, yeah. That it's all coming from Microsoft and and Microsoft makes, you know, they've been doing this for years, but they make a pretty good case. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> for Windows being the the best dev environment. I mean, I, we can argue that point. I don't mean fight me, I'm, I'm just saying they make a case for it.

I really, I, I'm, I'm quite taken because I was of course looking for I'm client guy, right? So I'm looking for any hint of Windows 12. And I didn't, it's funny to me, I didn't catch it at the end, but Leo kind of caught it, which was this notion that the co-pilot, which we, we've all agreed is such a great brand, is, is in some ways, not really, but in some ways it's almost like a temporary holding pattern kind of thing, because it can integrate with what we have today. Right? The real future is where AI is just infused inside everything. Right? So for today, we're gonna, we're gonna use it as connecting glue or whatever, and you'll have this co-pilot, this thing that's literally from a UI perspective, something sitting on the side. A, a sidebar.

Richard Campbell (00:08:16):
Well, this is what Stevie said. So eloquent though, right? Yeah. It's either beside inside or outside.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:08:21):
Yeah. Everything

Richard Campbell (00:08:23):
Inside Part Can side so far.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:08:24):
Yeah. The inside part is you can see it in apps that have AI capabilities built in. You can see it in the Windows Studio effects, which only works today on our machines, where you know, you have an app that can do AI things, you know, with a video and whatnot. And then the outside part is that and Leo, again, it kind of hit on this on the previous recording, which was this thing that in our space, a mi the Microsoft world has dates back to God, early nineties, you know, olay com, com plus dcom, you know, et cetera. And now we see it in Loop, you know, this kind of notion of actually documents, you talk documents that Richard mentioned being a, a DOS developer and the, the magic of copy and paste between applications, right. And this, no, I mean, in a, in a kind of a singletasking, you know, system like Ms.

Os where you run an app and the app takes a, oh yeah. Remember what a miracle TSR apps were? Permanent stay resident app. Yep. This has been sidekick. Yeah. It's like we, we we're gonna apply this dream that we've had since the early eighties to the internet <laugh>, you know, into dispert heterogeneous systems. And, and it's, it's, it's very interesting. So turned out the thing you were missing all along in this, you know, this world where you are document centric and you combine data and and capabilities from all over the place, including the internet, was ai. That's the, the tool, the glue that makes us possible, right? That's right. The internet gives us all of the data in the world <laugh>, right? Yeah. But making sense of it is the trick.

Richard Campbell (00:09:55):
Well, and, and getting the other problem you've got in the gooey, like the Gooeys now mature, right? We've had it for 30, 40 years. You know, arguably they're talking about showing the first mouse movements in 50 years ago. Yeah. But,

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:10:07):
But really 1983 ish or whatever,

Richard Campbell (00:10:09):
Right? Yeah. But all gooeys suffer from the same problem now, which is, there's too much stuff, right? Yeah. It's completely overloaded. So the idea, rather than clean up our interfaces and actually make them nice again, cuz that would be hard work, right? It's, let's stick on a new layer where I don't need to know what all that stuff. It is more, all I have to do is describe my problem to this piece of software. Yep. And it goes and pulls up the respective apps and tools necessary to get the work done. Like, you're, you're, you're, you're eliminating the gooey effectively cuz you're just describing your tasks and it's deciding, you know, the fun part now is gonna be the backroom battles about which app it decides to send you to. That's right.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:10:47):
<Laugh> Yeah. To do the work. No, it's true. I, I, I mean that's where the loop really shines. I always draw this parallel to Windows 95, where Microsoft introduced this notion of a document centric interface. And the idea there was that we're not gonna worry about apps. We're gonna say, I want to write a document and it will just launch whatever the default app is for that experience. Right? And there'll be some kind of an olay com whatever based integration bit where if you want to embed an Excel spreadsheet inside of Word or vice versa, the, the toolbar. So that application will come up when you're in doing that thing inside of that. People miss and loved Microsoft works for that reason. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly right. It was, it was, that's exactly right. It one app and it had, and it would just do what you needed to do. I think. I think Microsoft Works was killed because it was too good <laugh>, it, it solved. No, I, I mean, it, I it solved the problem for too many people, you know? Yeah.

Richard Campbell (00:11:33):
And it may and, but not enough money. Yeah.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:11:35):
Yeah. Right. you know, apple had a similar thing, Claris works yeah. Which they had eventually split into three different apps. But, so let's go back to day one. Satya talked, he said there'll be 50 plus announcements and, you know, we've seen many of them, but I'm sure over the week we'll see more. He talked about five putting chat G P P T well into search. Well, what were your, let's do it this way. Like what if you guys, like, what were, if you had to name like the, the thing or the top three things, like what were the biggest things you think that came out of this? Like what was the, what were the biggest announcements or the most

Richard Campbell (00:12:08):
Impressive? I think the overarching story is, Hey, you like chat G P T, let me, let us show you how to make one. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> right now, I think the biggest piece in this, which we didn't get a lot of eye time on, but I think is gonna be incredibly part, is this thing called prompt flow.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:12:26):
Right? What's that? So what's

Richard Campbell (00:12:27):
That? So this is part of that AI studio.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:12:31):
Oh, it generates prompts for you in effect.

Richard Campbell (00:12:34):
Well, and it's the place where you, you are gonna start shaping your, the prompts you want your app to respond to and how you wanna respond to 'em. So this is really, this is where your responsibility as the programmer is going to land. I'm gonna, as you start working through scenarios,

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:12:50):
I'm gonna throw in something crazy here. I think somebody yesterday used the word skew, amorphic. Maybe it was you, Richard mm-hmm. <Affirmative>.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:13:00):
But remember, I,

Richard Campbell (00:13:00):
I, I no used that word

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:13:02):
<Laugh> skew Amorphism came about because we had to transition people from physical objects like file folders and floppy disc Yeah. Into a digital world. Now we're comfortable with the digital world. And I, and I wonder if this, if this prompt tool is about right, a new kind of skew morphism moving you from the world of dropdown menus and and click interfaces <laugh> into a, well, it's like, why, why would an e-book reader have a fake page trending animation Yeah. Makes people uncomfortable. Like, how literally are we taking this Right. Action that to most people today doesn't mean anything anymore. Well, now people are used to menus contact, you know, deep deep menus and, you know, clicks and switches and buttons and all of those, you know, graphic interface Croft. So we gotta give them that. But what if we give 'em a tool that takes that and turns it into the new, the new medium for communication, which is prompts.

Yeah. Right. Maybe that's what that's all about. That that tool is a, is a, is a bridge. I think a lot of what actually, and it was Stevie Beit who who got this in my mind, is that we are in an evolutionary period where AI is going to become increasingly part of what we do. Yeah. We're gonna transition. We see this, we talked about this in the context of Loop, just to use a really simple example mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, we all grew up using Word, Excel, and PowerPoint, you know, and those things will move forward. But in the, in the future, this thing called Loop can consume that stuff. So it will bring forward everything you have. It will read it, it will work with it. You can write out to it. But there's gonna be a whole collaboration and productivity workflow thing happening in this new solution. And that over time, you know, back backwards compatibility doesn't really go away, but it becomes less important. It becomes Sure. What used to be the UI has now been replaced, but it's not that,

Richard Campbell (00:14:50):
The trick with Luke, they, when we, I did a run as on this, we were talking about trying to meet people where they are. Yeah, yeah. And the exam, the canonical example was the old sales guy whose numbers are awesome, but you can't get 'em to use teams for anything.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:15:03):
<Laugh>. Exactly.

Richard Campbell (00:15:04):
Just email me the, email me the price list in an, in a, an Excel spreadsheet in my email. And now he still has that email, except that that Excel spreadsheet is a loop component, right. That every time he opens, it fetches the current version automatically.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:15:18):
It's always up to date. Or better yet becomes you know, part of this Microsoft graph and, and our AI can just say, well, was the price of widget that widget? And it pulls it right up without even looking at the spreadsheet. So it, this thing being up in SharePoint or wherever, OneDrive for business, whatever you wanna call it, it it is absolutely part of the Microsoft graph. Yeah. That's what's beautiful about it. I, I, in some ways, spreadsheet when something around it becomes, gets inter gets you know, kind of integrated into the fabric. That's right. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and oh, you just really is sliding very comfortable with a Microsoft terminology there. <Laugh> Microsoft Fabric was one of the five things that's Nadella nobody, Microsoft Lover, Leo Lavo, <laugh>. Well, Richard Campbell pointed out that fabric used to mean something completely different.

That's right. Yeah. Shit, we don't talk about that now. It's a data lake, right? It's a, it's a, it's a new kind of data lake, which contains all of your data in one place. He also, so Sacha also talked about safety, and this kept coming up for me. Maybe not you guys so much. And, and, and really that was the only place they mentioned AI safety. And he mentioned in the context. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm, we're gonna talk about this in a bit. We can talk about it right now if you want. Actually, I, we can guess we can go out of order here, but I, I have been bullied over Microsoft and ethical AI by people from Microsoft, and I would like to address that <laugh> and no bullying allowed, you know, be best. Yeah. Well, I can, I can handle it.

It, it's a little it's a little rough when it comes from like executives at the company that you cover for a living, but yikes. <Laugh>, but yeah. But some public, some private, you know, whatever. But I, I did some digging and I, and I, I'll do, I'll do a pan house and tell a story that has nothing to do. It seems to have nothing to do with what I'm about to talk about. Richard will appreciate this because one of the apocryphal stories that everybody knows about is that Microsoft at one point fired all of their QA testers and now Windows is terrible, right? Yeah. Everyone knows this story. Yeah. everyone knows the story that Microsoft fired their AI ethics team, and oh my God, what are they doing? They're terrible, right? Everyone knows these stories. Are they true? Right. So I did some digging, and in the case of the Microsoft fired all the QA testers, that's complete nonsense.

That's not what happened. Yeah, it, it is a horrible coincidence, <laugh>, and it is a coincidence that Microsoft did start the Windows Insider program about three months after they got rid of the rest of their, the, the remainder of their dedicated QA team. But the reality is what that as part of the move from the Kovski era to the Meyers and era, they wanted to get rid of the silos. And one of the systems that OVS had put in place was that developers were over here. Testers were over here, and they'd never communicated, and they hated each other. And he and Myerson just kinda said, guys, we need testers in every one of our dev orgs. Like, that should just be part of, it's a better way of the process. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's all that was. And everyone knows, everyone knows they fired the QA team.

You know, it's the central QA team, but there's QA everywhere. Yeah. Well, but by the way, so they did the same thing with ai. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's exactly the same story. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So yes, there used to be a team of, I don't know, two, I think it was 200 people, ethics and something, ai, whatever it was. And basically at some point a couple years ago, they said, guys, we need this AI stuff in everything we're doing. So we need you people to be in part of the product team. So we need you to move out of what you're doing. And you're not some invisible panel of people that makes decisions for the whole company. We can't be agile that way. You need to move into the product teams. And so, over time, most of those people, 193 of them in fact, moved into other parts of Microsoft.

And at the end there were seven left. And Microsoft's like, what are you guys doing? And they're like, no, we wanna do this. Like, then you're fired. You have to get a job somewhere else. And that's who they fired. That makes sense for me in in QA really doesn't make sense for me in ethics, because just like accessibility, remember Microsoft centralized accessibility? Yes. Oh, okay. Well, yeah. But you want, you want those people on each team too, right? There has to be both. You do. But I think ethics, there is a responsibility AI team where Microsoft has to say, and we as a, as a society have to say, what are, you know, what is, what are the, what are asthma's robotic rules for ai? What are the rules? Right? Right. And so then I think Microsoft gave short, frankly gave short shrift to AI safety.

I, I, this is a little, this is more nuanced than I just suggested. So to your point there was a, oh boy, how do I explain this? There was a an op-ed in the New York Times that was written, I, I wanna say two months after Microsoft, or maybe one month after Microsoft came up with all their a i stuff back in February. And this guy Reid Blackman, who was a government advisor in digital ethics, said that you have, I think it was six AI ethics principles being AI violates five of them. And he went right down the line, this is what's, this is what's going on. And he says, you don't have to take my word for it. We we're, they gonna use Microsoft's principles and we're gonna ex like, show what they said, and now we're gonna show what they're doing.

And, and you can see that they're violating their own commitment to creating reliable and safe ai. So that's the other half of the story. I, I will say that we've had this discussion in the past about and I kind of evolved it over time, but I believe that AI came out of Microsoft at this point in time, specifically because of the market cap and the stock price and their Abbi, they, they needed something to goose that because you know, Azure revenue growth was 70, 70, 70, 60, 40, and it was 27% in the last quarter. And they, they, what they didn't want was Wall Street to suddenly react and say, oh my God, what's going on with this company? They used to be on the leading edge, and now they're Oldsmobile again. And so I think AI puts them back up in the perception of that helps.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Chris Cap, Chris Capella, our friend got in a lot of trouble recently because an internal email he had written in response to e employees complaining about compensation and not getting raises went public. And what he wrote was, he's like, guys, look, there's nothing, you know, like he, he doesn't control their raises, by the way. He's the market chief marketing officer. But he said, look, this very plain language, if you want to be compensated better, you need to make sure that you're doing something to IPA positively impact Microsoft stock price. And what he meant by that was AI <laugh>. Like, you need to make sure that you're adding your, that your job is to put AI into whatever your product is. And my God, people went after him like he was like the anti-Christ or something. But what he's really doing is just kind of parroting the internal emails that Microsoft executives were sending out last year saying, guys, we are doing ai.

You need to wrap your heads around this and you need to get on board because this is happening. And it started happening in February. You know so this, the, it's, it's not perfect. I mean, I don't mean to look, I I, and to the earlier points about Windows and QA testing, do I believe that Windows quality has gone down dramatically in, in, during Windows 10 standard now? Windows 11. Yeah. A hundred percent I do. Right. Do I believe that Microsoft fired their entire QA team and that's why No, no. Yeah. It, it's really hard to test accurately against the billions of configurations of PCs that are out there in the world. And the reality is, it doesn't matter how much you test something, once you put it out in front of the whole world, you're gonna find problems you didn't find during testing. And it makes sense.

I do feel they don't do enough testing <laugh>, you know, but it makes sense. Ancestral testing around development, I think ethics is one of those global properties that you really need to have a, as a company an ethical point of view. The, you know, you note that every screen, every screen they showed, said in very tiny print, this information generated by an AI and may be inaccurate. I think this is something of that Microsoft's gonna have to address, and it certainly would be a concern of mine and business. You, you said Paul during the keynote? Yeah, well, it's more accurate because it's a constrained data set. You're pulling it from actual numbers, so it's less likely to be inaccurate. I hope that's true. I guess we'll all have to get used to that. So, I'm sorry, I just, I I, I just wanna be clear, they do have that body, it's called the responsible AI console.

It's, they do do Chaired by Brad Smith. It is. It oversees. Oh, that's right. Brad Smith's Microsoft's efforts across the entire company. They actually do have that good. They need that. The, the, the problem is, you hear that there's a, there's a, the exact team name is, lemme see if I can just find it. It's it's ethics and something the little team that Ethics in Society was what they Oh, yeah. The team that got laid off was the remainder of a team that used to have 200 people in it that was down to seven because they refused to leave their team and even tried to find another giant side Microsoft and team, they, what we're gonna, the

Richard Campbell (00:24:01):
Job that they were finding were being the ethical component of AI development in different teams. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Like they were still asking 'em to do the same job, but to do it up close to a given implementation. Correct. Where they wanted to be there to inject ethical behavior into the code as it was being developed, rather than wait till the end and find out they did it wrong, which is dumb.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:24:20):
I the notion that there are people in the world, including people who are super knowledgeable about ai, are trying to warn a company, they work for the rest of the planet, that this is dangerous and we need to put the brakes on and we need to, you know, whatever is not unique to Microsoft. Google has fired someone actually fired a couple. Someone Google fired their team too. Margaret Mitchell and Tim Aru, they fired all bunch of people. Course, the so-called godfather of AI at Google left on his own, so he could go out to the world in Yeah, that's Jeffrey. I can't remember his last name, but

Richard Campbell (00:24:52):
Jeff Hinton.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:24:53):
Hinton, that's it. But I have to say, some of these people, the, I mean, not so much Tim, Nick Guru and Margaret Mitchell, but certainly Hinton are worried about the machines taking over. They're worried about Terminators, Skynet. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking

Richard Campbell (00:25:11):
About, but that's not Jeff. That is not what Jeffrey Henon said. Oh,

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:25:13):
Good. Okay.

Richard Campbell (00:25:14):
Okay. Let's be clear. Jeffrey Hinton left Google cuz he turned 75, he was

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:25:18):
Retiring. Yes. Yes. He stayed there longer than he needed to. Yeah.

Richard Campbell (00:25:23):
Yeah. He, he hit the limit. And, and this is also a university professor who never made any money in his life. Right. All of his graduate students spun off into these tech giants and made a fortune and Right. Eventually somebody said, Hey, why don't you set up a company that we can buy? Right. And they, and they basically rewarded him. Right. But he also made it very plain. A couple of his interviews at Point blank, there was a bunch of things he wanted to say about how Google was doing things ethically that he thought was right. That Google wouldn't let him say. Well, he worked there. Yeah.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:25:50):
Okay. Defending the Canadian, he retired, bro. Richard defending,

Richard Campbell (00:25:54):
He's, he, he's an Englishman. Okay.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:25:57):
Hobby. He's a Toronto. Right. Okay. <Laugh>. Yeah. Anyway, I, I just like this stuff is we, we, I think we can be victimized by stories that sound true. That, you know, they, it's like a, it's like a telephone game. Like the Yeah. The story is told and told and told, and by the time you get to the end, it, it's something else. And now everyone knows that this is the truth. It's like, that's not what happened. I count on you guys to do that. I think that's one of our missions at is to tell the truth. Go, go past the link bait and the, you know, the easy answer and really, you know, tell what's, actually, I wanna be clear. I, I don't mean to say I, I've looked into these stories and now I believe that everything Microsoft is doing is fine.

That's not, that is not the case. That's not the case at all. I do feel What about the safety issue? What about the safety issue? Do you think they've I don't know enough about it to say. I mean, that's not, yeah. I feel like they didn't want to talk about it cuz they didn't wanna raise it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. There were really cheap things you can say about AI that everyone Oh, yeah. You know, like people are gonna lose job, you know? Yeah, yeah. Of course that this is to do with AI automation. Yeah. That's people, people who sold horses lost jobs when cars became a thing, you know? Right. The, the railroad industry that made it possible to move across this country efficiently. I'm sure there were jobs that were, you know, stagecoach jobs became less valuable or whatever.

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. We're trying to save cold jobs now for some reason, instead of moving to more efficient forms of or less disastrous forms of fuel or whatever, less expensive forms of energy, less whatever, you know, I mean, I mean, you know, this is any technology, right? Th this is gonna be the argument I talked about, the cloud computing thing and the precon session to tech ed. You know, do you mean to tell me that my last act as an exchange administrator is gonna be to hand over my email to Microsoft? Yes. Because your company doesn't exist to do email. That's not its point. Your company exists to sell widgets or whatever the heck, you know, whatever they do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> you've created an email infrastructure because we needed it because of whatever, but that's, it's become like its own business.

You know? It's better for the company for you not to be doing that kind of thing. And these are hard decisions, but it's this is the reality. So yes, I mean we all the examples they show a lot of it is, this is gonna make your job easier and that's a good marketing approach to anything like this. We should be cognizant of the fact that this also means some guys are not gonna be necessary anymore. We joked about it. Leo and I, I think before Richard came up, we, I don't remember the name we used, but it was like Mary, Mary, it seems like all you're doing is clicking a button. Would you say, how much of your day would you say is clicking in a button that okays something that AI suggests? Like, like at some point, do we just get rid of the button and just let AI do it?

I mean, I think we're on that This is the dark under, you know, underbelly. Yeah. I mean, at some point goo Scott Goo yesterday said every app will be reinvented with ai. He said new apps will be built with AI that weren't possible before. <Laugh>, somebody said and I made a note of it cause I loved the phrase, I think it was Kevin Scott Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott, that AI was a big bucket of unrestrained capability. <Laugh>. And I really liked Scott is, I dunno if you noticed a a plane smoke, man, <laugh> I really enjoyed, oh, no, I'm sorry. I meant a profane spoke. A profane a big, maybe he wanted to say it a little differently. Yeah, yeah. I like, I like the way he speaks. But it really was, I think the of both days, and I think you guys agreed with me the really the best statement of what Microsoft's up to was Stevie Batis. Yes. I thought, yeah. I mean, that was at the very end landing today after, after 90 minutes of nonsense, you know, all of a sudden clarity emerged from the clouds <laugh>, you know, it was, it was, I thought that was astonishing. Chris and I was already looking in

Richard Campbell (00:29:46):
Like seven minutes, like, show crisp.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:29:51):
Yep. I want him to keynote now. I want him to be the guy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I thought he was amazing. He showed the mother of all demos, a little clip from Doug Engelbart's demonstration of how a mouse worked. And he said, AI is re is the next generation the new interaction. That's right. Technology instead of dragging a pointer around AI is gonna do that. He said it'll be less programmatic, more piloted. Right. And then he laid out a vision for AI's integration into everything, starting with what we have today, which is AI as a kind of a sidebar. The Bing chat. Yeah. That's the co-pilot model. Yeah. Right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> th that's, he said it was beside inside and outside. So we're at the besides stage right now, it's minimally disruptive. You still work the way you used to work.

It's like your little plastic pal. It's the three stages of AI grief, <laugh>. Yeah. That's what it is. Stage two, which I think Microsoft people are already starting to do, and Microsoft is really urging developers to move to this stage. He says the AI will be the main scaffolding of the app. It will replace the input loop, you know, the input loop watches for key clicks and mouse movements, right? That's right. It will be the main input loop now will be the ai and so it'll be less to point dependent on point and click. There'll be fewer toolbar, fewer deep me me menus as an example. Yeah. Because you won't need them, which I thought was the most important part of that. Right. We're not talking about cleaner ui. We're saying we don't need ui. Right. You know, he used Luminar Neo as an example.

This is an app that was available first on the Mac, but is actually a, I think both Mac and Windows, they've been crossed platform, a Ukraine development team called Skyla. They do really interesting stuff. And he showed how AI can be used with a slider mm-hmm. <Affirmative> on a photograph to modify the photograph. And mentioned that there were 20 engines running at the same time. So that was this is I think this is the key bit because in fact you someone mentioned this notion that Microsoft has of meeting people where they are customers to developers, whatever. It's, and that, and that really is about meeting users where they are. Right. I need to get something done. I'm not gonna go over to a, a chat bot on the side and say, Hey, I need to edit this photograph so that that race car isn't blurry, but it's, you know, clear looking.

Right? You, you, you go to the app in this case, and the app needs to do this. Right. It's it's a smart, it's smart. I think AI is, you're gonna see this, I I'm sure you can almost see the blog post coming. The Microsoft Photos app that's in Windows is gonna be updated to do this kind of stuff, but only on an npu or if you have a really fast GPU maybe, or whatever. Well, that was, and that was one of the things that you, you were focusing on was a lot of what they were talking about. You couldn't do on existing hardware, certainly not on the existing Intel hardware that you'd need a qual competition. Yeah. They kinda underplayed that too, by the way. Well, but then they mentioned, you know, Intel's Meteor Lake coming this fall is gonna have an NPU built in am MD has an already has an NPU enabled 70 40 Yep.

Mobile processor. So I think there, you know, his talk was not, was partly here's where we are, but here's where we're going was really the focus of it. Final, final point outside, I should even more though of an industry call where they kind of said, look we need PC makers to come on board with us, use these new chips that have NPUs. This is, you shouldn't be selling a pc. This coming season that doesn't have, like, this has to be just is. Well, and that's just like, you wouldn't ship one without a microprocessor. Maybe this is our message to listeners and to our audience, to users. You shouldn't be buying a PC without an npu. Yeah. Richard's going through this right now. Richard wants to replaces, I'm

Richard Campbell (00:33:26):
Staring at my book two saying, what do I replace this with? And it's like,

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:33:30):
You might wait. It's gonna, you know, give it like four to six months and we'll see what

Richard Campbell (00:33:34):
Yeah. Think in the fall. The fall should be really

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:33:36):
Interesting. Yes, I agree. The end of the year should be very interesting. Yep. finally he said that, well, the third stage after beside ai, beside AI inside is AI outside. And that's, to me, the most interesting and also the biggest opportunity for Microsoft. Ai Olay, AI Olay. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Well, but that's, but also Satya Nettella was talking about that yesterday, the idea of platform. He even quoted Bill Gates saying, bill Gates defined the term platform as a tool that makes more money for its users, its developers, than it does for the people who created the platform. Windows is a success to the degree that developers for Windows make money, make more money than we do. And Sacha brought that up for a good reason. That's the opportunity here. Windows and AI particularly and co-pilot will be will be

Richard Campbell (00:34:25):
Also something Microsoft's famous for, right? Like, yes, Microsoft has been extreme. Who better to do building ecosystem.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:34:30):
Yeah. Who better to do that? This is, it's also, I, this is where Microsoft kind of wins, right? I mean, or can win. When I, when you heard about things like Bing Chatbot and stuff like that, it's like, it's still, you know, guys, what is this? It's still Bing, you know, but where

Richard Campbell (00:34:44):
You notice how little they said Bing over the past two days. Yes.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:34:47):
Right? I not talk about it. It's, I I, I they replaced is not with co-pilot, didn't they really? No. Well, they want talk copilot, but Yeah, they do. Of course. But, but, but, but because that's where co-pilot is the platform part of ai, ai for them. It's where exactly they sell Azure, right? It's where they sell all these other services. It's where, you know, people will buy a Windows machine to do their development on, and, and they connect us to Azure in the cloud, and it's, that's where they're gonna make money from this. They're gonna make other people successful, other companies, right. And yeah, Bing will have go from three to 6% market share or something. Who cares? I mean, it's fine. Every, every point of market share is whatever, billion dollars. That's great, but that's not where the money, you know, when you look at the big pie chart, Bing is like this single pixel line somewhere, and the rest of it is Azure and whatever the other services are this is, that's, this is Microsoft Petit's closing comments, which actually closed the two days of keynotes.

Urging you to think of micro developers. Think of Microsoft. As he said, Microsoft is behind beside you. It's your co-pilot. Yeah. Ah-huh. <Affirmative>. Yeah. When you see only one pair of footprints behind you, it's Microsoft is carrying you. <Laugh> Windows is my co-pilot. And use AI to reach your customer carrying you, because use AI to reach your customer's goals, not tasks. And I thought that was interesting also, it's, they're really trying to go to this kind of meta level, this next level of computer operation where it's not very specifically focused on doing a thing, but it is much more broadly focused on fulfilling your goals. And I think that that's a really ambitious thing. I'm not, I'm not convinced AI is going to do that, but that's certainly the ambition and no one is better positioned. I, you, you disagreed with me, Paul, but I really think no one's better positioned to do this than Microsoft Linux.

Not apple. Not, no, no. Opposite. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I No, I, I I, Microsoft is better positioned. All I meant was developers might stick to Linux and they can use a Visual Studio code and still hit Azure. Like, in other words, win. It's, it's not, it's not so much about Windows, it's about Microsoft, right? So you could be on a Mac, you could be on Linux, you could be on Windows, but as, as long as you're consuming Azure up in the cloud, Microsoft wins. And that's kind of the point of the Sure. The platform shifts to the cloud and to ai. They don't really care what platform. Well,

Richard Campbell (00:37:11):
I argue there's only two places in the world. You can run a large language model right now.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:37:15):
Yeah, right. It's

Richard Campbell (00:37:16):
An Azure data center or an Amazon data center.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:37:18):
Yeah. And they're going nuts on, I didn't read this article, but Amazon, I don't know, a couple weeks ago or a month ago, kind of came out and said, Hey, here's what we're doing in ai. And the story today is like, almo, they can't find a customer who's even heard about being able to access any of this stuff. They, yeah, there's nothing. It's a, it's a complete silence. Cricket sound. And I, I'm just gonna have to say as a, as somebody who does, you know, hobbyist developer, but a guy who does really does not like to use Windows for development I that they made, I'm outta here, <laugh>, that made a very strong case for, you know, you even said this at the, there we were talking about developing on Windows, not developing four windows. That's, and that's a big shift for Microsoft.

That's right. Yeah. I just a lot of people who aren't really paying attention or understand the nuance here might have watched this keynote and said, wow, they really talked about Windows lines. It's like, well, they did <laugh> for developers as a platform for developers, for developers to create these AI apps that are gonna, you know, look, I I think across platform part of this is, is super important. They, when they talk about doing things like we're gonna use the open standards, so to speak, that is the chat G p T plugin model. Very interesting. You know those things can run in different places in Windows. They can run an edge, it can run in the sidebar, Microsoft 365 co-pilot, whatever. It can run in Bing, you know, but it can also run in chat G P T and it can run in whatever else chooses to use that.

There'll be a lot of solutions based on it. It's, it's fundamentally cross-platform. You know, Microsoft will do what they can to provide good UIs on their own platforms and all that kind of stuff. But that, that stuff can be out in the world, right? I mean, this is AI is not Windows <laugh>, you know? Sorry. No, but nevertheless, I, I was looking at the, what everything they were doing. Yeah. Thinking, Hey, that's a pretty, oh, that's sweet. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Oh, that's pretty good. Well, that's good though, right? I I, I have a little thing in here later about Microsoft Edge, which I can't stand, but I gotta tell you, I, they're, they, this is not about ai, but they come up with this new UI and I'm like, this is, this kind of makes me want to use Edge. Like it's, as much as I hate this thing and I know too much about it I see this new feature and I'm like, this is pretty cool.

That's, and that's, that's smart. On the part of the people that make and the measure of a successful keynote, we did say That's right. Initially, you know, they, they, I thought, oh, they fumbled the opportunity. They've got the world's attention for day one. They should do it with Google and Apple do and make it a marketing talk. They didn't, it was really much more of a developer talk. And yet I think of the marketing message was very clear. If you wanna develop an ai, you wanna work in ai. Yes. The place to do it is on Windows. I thought that's quite good. Like I said, they make a good case. I, you, you could argue if you were a Mac fan, for example, in might saw Max have MPUs. Well, we have nmp. Yeah. yeah, yada, yada. I mean there's, you could, you know, whatever back, but Apple has no AI story zero. Right? Right. Well, but but

Richard Campbell (00:40:11):
Time story, you mean large language model. Yeah. I mean, yeah. You would argue that Siri was the original surfacing of adversarial developed neural nets for language recognition.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:40:23):
Sure. We would. I mean, this is the problem model. Yeah.

Richard Campbell (00:40:26):
I mean, this is the problem, Leo is the AI banner can be anything you fricking want. Absolutely. Cause it's actually absolutely science fiction.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:40:32):
Yeah. Say large language models, you're absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah. And Google has a story there and Microsoft has a story. Their Apple is in fact all watch a week from Monday. When WWCs comes, they're gonna, their position will be, yeah. But we want to do it safely. So we've been very careful. We're not gonna rush this to market of, and of course course, and that's the, that's how they're gonna position the fact that they're laed that they're bomb. That's how they always position when they're last to market. Exactly. Yeah. I'm gonna take a break and we're gonna get to your bullet points cuz you actually have a rundown. And well, we don't, by the way, we don't actually have to go through all of it. We've actually touched on at least whatever you want. Whatever you want. We gotta get Richard outta here in half a hour.

Yeah, no, we gotta we gotta get, I gotta get to Whiskey fast. But before we do anything, I want to tell you about our sponsor, lookout. Have <laugh>, if anything, if there's any takeaway from all the shows we do, and especially in the last couple of days, it's that business has changed forever. The boundaries to where we even how we work completely dissolved. Right? your data nowadays always on the move. It could be on a device, it could be in the cloud, it could be across different networks. It could even be in a coffee shop right now while we speak. Now that's great for your workforce, but it's a challenge for it. Security Lookout helps you control your data and free your workforce. How many times you know, have, have your IT departments said, you know, we have multiple point solutions. They don't work together.

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Richard Campbell (00:43:27):
Outta here. We are gonna be talking about Azure and mm-hmm. <Affirmative> talking specifically about just how much Azure is consumed by those large language models.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:43:33):
I, you know, they haven't, no one's really talked about that. You brought it up. This is a pricey, in fact, Paul brought it up too. This is a pricey technology. Well,

Richard Campbell (00:43:42):
And it, and it also explains an awful lot of the hype energy around it. They need to sell a lot of seats Yeah. To, to leave this thing on.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:43:51):

Richard Campbell (00:43:52):
Is if they, you know, it's gonna cost the same amount in base operating regardless. So until you get the seat count up high enough, you can't pay for it. It would really suck to have come this far and end up having to shut it off because it just doesn't make financial sense.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:44:07):
Right. I see one of your notes, Paul, is that Qualcomm makes a case for local and hybrid ai. Is that, is that response to that? Yeah, we, you know, we talked in the past about how, you know, apple partially because they just don't have this kind of data center cloud AI capability. They use Azure in in many cases, actually. Yeah. I mean they, they were very early to the game with MPU style capabilities in their phones. And if you go back and watch Apple, you know, keynotes from years past, it's, it's, I was confused at the time. I like, what, I don't understand what the point of this is. You know, they, they have this neural, what do they call it? The neural engine, you know, it has so many cores, yada, yada on each chip set generation didn't quite get it.

I always felt like companies like Microsoft and Google and Amazon that have the can have the stuff in the cloud where maybe more on point. But what happens over time is you realize the best possible scenario is to have both, you know, the hybrid model that Qualcomm and Microsoft now are talking about. And Qualcomm has been building Mpu. They don't call 'em mpu, but it's NPUs. It's the combination of their G P U C P U and what is essentially an M P U into a single S O c for seven or eight years now. And the now we're on, we're working towards gen two on the pc for the PC chips. And that's the hybrid thing they were talking about, right? That you, if you could do stuff locally, it's always better. You're gonna have a, well, better from a, sorry, from a performance standpoint, but you also want the power of the cloud because depending on what the data is you're working off, sometimes that stuff's gonna be up in the cloud as well. It can really take a a a, I'm curious what Mark Zevi has to say about this. It, it's possible that this is what will save the Azure consumption stuff, is if you can offload some of that to the client that might make for a better experience all around, including from a cost perspective. Yeah. I dunno, we're doing stable the

Richard Campbell (00:45:55):
Way that these language models are built. It's kind of, it's just so big.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:45:59):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Anyway, but they have they do demos where they're doing stable diffusion locally and it's, you know, 12 x nine x depending on, you know, the, the thing, the action you're taking better performance than working off of a cpu, which of course it's kinda like the difference between, you know, software and hardware accelerated graphics. But even for systems that have, is enormous advantages and to get anywhere near the type of performance they see on like a thin and light notebook for AI tasks you would need like, you know, a dual Nvidia graphics card set up, you know, and some workstation rig that would cost tens of thousands of dollars. And so that's, you know, that's, this is what we're working toward, right? This is what we're this is what we're trying to do. So I, you know, we're all gonna have it. It's, it's sort of just like, you know, you know, adding AI to Bing, it's like, oh my God, they have this huge competitive advantages. Like, well, no, I mean, everyone's gonna have that, you know? Mm-Hmm. soon we're all gonna have npu. I would say Qualcomm was here first on the, on the PC side, but am MD has it on one chip set and, and, and tells adding it on one chip set, you know, we'll get there.

Richard Campbell (00:47:09):
I I'm just fascinated the mo the, you know, you wanna know the difference between the, the models they're doing stable diffusion on the pc. Yeah. Completely. Yeah. And, and yet the large language model, that's a note

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:47:21):
<Laugh>. Right, right, right. But this, you know, I, I think that stuff is cool. I, and you know, windows Effect, which doesn't affect anyone today, will soon affect everyone. It'll be great. <Laugh>, you know, <laugh>

Richard Campbell (00:47:34):

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:47:36):
How about moment three? They kind of teased that we might get moment three a little earlier. Yeah. This is so screwed up. You know you guys know this better than anybody. I've spent this entire year trying to come to terms with Microsoft's release schedule, and this month's throws a little bit of a, a wrench into the plan because I talk about week B, right. Patch Tuesday and Week D, which they've settled on, they've changed to as their new model for delivering the next week. B, you know, moment or controlled feature release, whatever. This week has five weeks five Tuesdays this month. Sorry. So the question was would they release it yesterday or would they release it next week? Next week. Yesterday being two weeks from past Tuesday. Next week being two weeks until the next pa past Tuesday.

So they didn't release anything yesterday. I thought, okay, there's your answer. It's coming up on the 30th. Nope, they released it today. And it's not the entire thing because that's how they release things now, right? Everything's a controlled feature release. So it's part of moment three was released today in preview form. I don't know what that means to olive moment three on patch Tuesday next month. If the whole thing comes out. If there's gonna, they're gonna dribble it. I, there's no way to know any, I don't even know why I tried to keep track of this, cuz every time I think I've got it, they change it again <laugh>. So

Richard Campbell (00:48:50):
I think they're just trying to figure it out themselves.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:48:52):
Yeah, I really, I think they're making it up as they go along. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So Microsoft tweeted that you can get some of the enhancements in moment three via this update that came out today. It's a preview update, right? So you have to go get it. Oh, but it did, oh, I did actually answer one, one of my questions was, remember the last C F R they released, I guess we'll call that, is that one toggle in Windows update that says, get the latest updates as soon as they're available. You can click that thing on. The idea there is that if there's some CFRs coming out, if they're gonna randomly put it out in the world, they'll give it to you first. Right? You'll be in that first wave. So I was curious, like, okay, well what about these moment updates?

Like, but it's not really clear how moment updates get rolled out. I assume that they're rolled out like CFRs. It's just instead of one cfr you get like a bunch of CFRs, right? So you might get them soon, you might get 'em later. I, you know, who knows? That's not the case as it turns out. But regardless for the preview update, if you click this thing on, you will get it. Right. So this, if you want to get preview updates questions out, oh, that explains it. Because I have an update waiting for me. And I have, and that's what it, and it says preview. I bet. And that's,

Richard Campbell (00:50:01):
Yeah, you're on board.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:50:02):
So what you have is a subset of moment, moment three, which is gonna require me to once again update my <laugh> understanding of how these things come up. Oh, oh my goodness gracious.

Richard Campbell (00:50:12):
Says it. Yeah. Is it? Yeah. Moment 2.7 blocks, moment

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:50:15):
<Laugh>. Yes, exactly. Moment three, alpha two, I don't know. I

Richard Campbell (00:50:19):
Dunno. Moment three, community edition. Yeah,

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:50:21):
Exactly. <Laugh>. So, so is this, this is the tweet that yep. That started all, if you have Homer Pro or non-managed business, right? Windows 1122 H two, you can get some of the new enhancements announced yesterday, right now. Yeah. So this, like I said, opens up a question. Patch Tuesday Will is gonna be a little under three weeks from today. When Patch Tuesday comes, the non preview version of that update will appear. Will it be all of the updates or it will be some of the updates? I can see it going either way. I wanna be clear about that. Cause like I said, I think I, I, I see a moment as a series of C ffr. So some of them could be scheduled to go out immediately. Some of them could be scheduled to go out randomly later on. And, and we've, we see there's so many examples of this.

Now if I did this now, would you be able to see, would you know what had changed <laugh>? So I don't know. So well, so this is cumulative update preview for Windows 1122 H two. Yeah. So, so that's it. I I I think that we went over, did we go over a moment three last week? I think we might have. So the problem with moment three as an update is that it's not very it's not a big deal for individuals from a UI perspective. I'm doing it. I don't care. I'm doing it. I'm going in. Actually, you know what, this raises a question. Lemme see if I, I'm going in there. Is Leo, you can the tell in middle of a show. Okay. I'm 0%. So here's the, do you on the keyboard that you're using? Yeah. Is there a menu key?

Oh, I don't have the menu key. That's right. This is a little novo second. Darn it. That was a big one. I remember you talked about that last week. Yeah. Is it shift plus? Oh, no. Okay. You can try shift plus F 10 then shift F 10 would be the menu key is Yeah, in Bluetooth. Okay. It's got a little Bluetooth li icon on, on this Lenovo, but I'm sure, okay, <laugh>. Well, I mean, you might have to do shift function. Key plus F. Yeah, I understand. Well we're gonna have to wait because I'm only 15% there. Well, when you do it, it said it tell, it said it would only take three minutes. So this is a good test. <Laugh>, that's a pretty good amount of time for a little, a little moment like this. But yeah. Anyway, that there aren't many UI changes that you would just kind of notice.

Like for example, most people aren't gonna use the menu key in the keyboard to launch an explorer based context menu. You, oh, actually here's another one we can check is yeah, let me see what it does before I say it. In multitasking settings, in the settings app, your option, they're worded differently. But your options used to be to show the three most recent explore edge tabs, right? In addition to your open windows. Five most or all or none. They've limited all to 20 probably for performance reasons, right? Pro probably because edge does sleeping tabs now and a lot of your tabs, they'd have to wake up the tab every time you switch. And I'm sure there's a endless process cycle that occurs when that stuff happens. So those, these we're, we're not talking about major updates here, right?

So there's nothing, there's no big UI thing where you're like, oh my God, this is amazing. Like this is gonna change my life. That doesn't exist. They, it's interesting cuz they tweeted an hour ago, if you wanna get it, you know, flipped that switch, which I had already flipped. And then they said, okay, you can get it now. Yeah, but it's not the, is it tied to build? Is it, is it, the question is, sorry. Is there, I mean, cuz of build that they're doing this or they just wanna screw with you? No, it's Microsoft. I don't think they know what they're doing. I think that this thing probably would've come out yesterday and they were like, I don't know, like, maybe, maybe someone forgot to flip the switch. Maybe it says the Windows day for the keynote, or, I dunno.

So you say shift F 10 or maybe function shift F 10. So first what you have to do is first click the desktop so that explorer is selected, if that makes sense, right? Okay. Yep, yep. I get that. Yep. Then shift F 10. Yeah. All right. So click the desktop. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. And then shoot, why you do before you do that. Yeah. <laugh> just right click the desktop. Just right click. Okay. Okay. Oh, oh, oh. It's not, yeah, there it is. Oh. Oh. Stuff. Stuff's loaded. Disc. I hate that. Loads. That's crazy. I don't want things Load takes forever. Yeah. Don't load, man. Can you like Windows Key D This, I'm trying to find somewhere to go. What is this? Restart To update. Oh, that's bit warden. Okay. Yeah. Let's go to a blank. Here's a, here's a blank page. So just click, click.

So you'll see there's your, there's your context menu. That's the normal context menu, right? So now click the, the desktop. Okay. Click it and, and then do the function. F1 10. Probably with the function. Yeah. Oops. I, Nope, nope. Wait. <laugh>. No, no. Oh, no, no, no. Load is minimize, minimize, minimize. Not a good thing. Go. Oh, this is really, oh, no, what's happening? And people say that's that redoing your computer is not disruptive. That's right. Yeah. Okay. Let's try this, try that again. Shift F 10. Nah, it brought in, it brought in that for some reason. Yep. Alright. Make sure. Are you doing it with the function care or not? Oh, there it is. There's, there it is. It happens. That's nice. Yeah. There. They're your access keys. I got V oe, W one Ddrt V or O, right? V to see the next one. Oh, look at that. See more access keys. That's new. Oh, there you go. Exciting. It worked. That was exciting. I am, I am here. I have moment three. <Affirmative>.

Yeah, that's it. <Laugh>, that's the whole thing. I, there really not much to it. I'm sorry, that's not, I mean, it's not it, but it's, this is really it. It's something you can see like, you like. Oh yeah. Okay. There's, wow. You know, if you, like I said, if used Edge they've limited the amount of tabs that can appear in all tab to 20 at most. Right Now, if I had a Windows key, it'd be great because then you would just really easily hit it. I mean, menu key rather. It would be very easy. Yeah. But yes, I don't, I mean, shift F 10 isn't the most intuitive. It's, I, you know, it's like if before there were there were start, what do you call it? Windows keys on keyboards, you would like control escape, I think where it brings up the windows the start button, right?

Right. the problem is today we have windows key shortcuts. And those are e like, you know, windows Key brings up the presentation menu or whatever. You can't do control escape p <laugh>, you know? Right. If it doesn't work with the keyboard shortcuts. Right. Well, I'm an EMAX user, so I'm used to that. I know how all that works. Yeah. Well you use, if you use something like visual Studio Code or terminal, there's, there's good two level keyboard shortcuts like control. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, K Control R I think is the one in I use in mm-hmm. <Affirmative> code, stuff like that in a visual studio too. Like, you wanna comment like a whole block of code or something. There's two level keyboard shortcuts for that. It's fun. Richard, do you wanna, I'm thinking maybe, cuz you're gonna have to get outta here pretty soon. Maybe do your run as radio and your whiskey tip now and then yeah, for sure. Then when you have to run, you can run. Cause I don't want you to miss Mr. Rossovich.

Richard Campbell (00:57:33):
Oh no, no. I'm not gonna miss Mr.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:57:36):

Richard Campbell (00:57:37):
I will, I will abandon you

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:57:39):
<Laugh> as you should. And we would not think, no, we would not think any less <laugh>. Yep.

Richard Campbell (00:57:47):
This week on Renez radio incident response readiness with Paula Jenna Schitz, who's an old friend of mine. This is a a lovely woman from Poland. You should let nowhere near your computer <laugh>

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:57:59):
Cause <laugh>.

Richard Campbell (00:58:02):
She's one of the fastest hackers I've ever seen really in my life. Unbelievably

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:58:07):
Go, wow. Cool. Oh, I will listen to this. How interesting.

Richard Campbell (00:58:10):
Yeah. And so when she was really digging into in this conversation was the fact that you know, how you mitigate the panic around a breach that, that people tend to overreact. And so, like, really having an incident response readiness plan makes a huge difference for how you escalate problems, how you encapsulate them, getting to sourcing. Cuz often we damage the trail of the exploit in our efforts to quickly make it go away. So it, the, having a proper plan around that and, and a and a set of tools, you know, you're, you're seam your, your overview of your security profile are all part of that. And so that kind of planning and readiness, not even particularly expensive, just takes time. But when you have it in place, you a tend to catch onto breaches before they become serious exploits and ransomware. B, when an exploit starts to propagate, you can see it and have more opportunity to encapsulate it and more likely to be able to close the door behind, however they did get in once you actually get to sourcing. So,

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:59:18):

Richard Campbell (00:59:19):
Yeah, I, I found first one to Paula back in the old tech heads back in the day, and she now runs a world class company outta Warsaw that fixes governments who have been exploited by ransomware. She's one of the best.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:59:31):
A good hacker is a good person to know.

Richard Campbell (00:59:34):
Hmm. Yeah. Keep 'em on the friends' side.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:59:36):
Yes. <laugh> good person to keep on the friends side. Absolutely.

Richard Campbell (00:59:40):
Yeah. One of my favorite stories from her is her going into a customer that they were talking about wanting to have a security profile done. So she showed up to the office half hour early and asked the receptionist for access to the, to the wifi so she could prepare <laugh>.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (00:59:53):
Oh God. <Laugh>.

Richard Campbell (00:59:56):
And then wa when they started the meeting, she just walked up and wrote down all of the administrator passwords on the whiteboard and said, any questions?

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:00:04):
Oh, that's a great pen test. That's awesome. Give me access to the wifi. I don't like, take a minute. Yeah.

Richard Campbell (01:00:11):
It'll only take a minute. And it only took her a minute. Oh

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:00:13):
God. That's a, I love that. Oh, I want, I'll listen. I can't wait. Whiskey wise, you've got a rye whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey.

Richard Campbell (01:00:20):
I, I'm one of the very rare pure straight rise. So I'm happened to be in Washington state at the moment.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:00:26):
I was gonna say, this is right there.

Richard Campbell (01:00:28):
This Washington, this is Woodenville, which is a li a little town where you and I have both been in Paul usually known for wine. It's a couple of nice wineries in that area. But the woodenville whiskey folks have been working there for quite a few years. Some of their early additions, like if we could, I would've took, brought up the number nine batch bourbon they used to make. Cuz boy oh boy, that was good. But you can't get it anymore. And that's annoying. But I like this cuz it's kind of special. It's a straight rye. So no barley, no wheat, no corn, just rye. Which actually means it's spicy as all get out. Like it's, I don't even think it's particularly pleasant on its own. It's very potent.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:01:06):
Oh, interesting. But this,

Richard Campbell (01:01:07):
Huh, it makes a fantastic old fashioned, like, oh, anything you wanna add a little citrus to or something, you'll really enjoy this. But Yeah. Straight up Bain in Washington Quincy is where one of the bay, one of the original Microsoft Azure data centers is. But yeah, they make it all, they get all right there aged in bourbon casks. It's very classic. And but if you, you know, are expanding your horizons on understanding whiskey drinking, you know, you start to understand why most ri rye is used only a little bit as a flavor grain Yeah. In whiskey, because rye on its own is a lot. Yeah. Just it's very potent

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:01:49):
Woodenville, straight rye whiskey. Now I'm not a big drinker, so I'm more interested in woodville's barrel-aged maple syrup. <Laugh>. No, no, that sounds amazing. After we empty our bourbon and rye whiskey barrels, we refill them with maple syrup, aged gracefully. That's gotta cost a pretty penny. But still,

Richard Campbell (01:02:12):
You gotta think they could then take that barrel and sell it to the SCOs and they'd still put whiskey

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:02:17):
<Laugh>. Yeah, exactly. Really? I think it would be, yeah. For gosh fun. Richard, thank you so much. Wooden

Richard Campbell (01:02:25):
Veil. My pleasure. Yeah,

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:02:27):
If you want to take off, you can, if you wanna stick around a little longer. You got a few minutes? We can continue on.

Richard Campbell (01:02:33):
Let's do the minutes.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:02:34):
Do the minutes baby. Yeah. what else, what else is in Bill is in here, like avatars coming to teams. Can't wait, take off the legs, put on a happy face.

Richard Campbell (01:02:46):
Why, why are we still talking about this? I dunno. <Laugh>. Nobody wants it.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:02:50):
Nobody wants mesh. Go away. Yeah. I don't get it.

Richard Campbell (01:02:55):
Are you looking at what Zuckerberg did and going, boy, that was really great. You guys

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:02:59):
Had some good ideas, huh? Oh, <laugh>. Wow. Wow. Yeah, it's crazy.

Richard Campbell (01:03:04):
Yeah, I mean, are you either, you're either the argument for go back to the office or the AR for working from home. Either way none of them involves floating around.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:03:13):
Yeah. It's like, I used to walk in working in this office with human beings and now I talk to cartoon characters every two hours for some reason, you know, maybe it's a steal, a stealth plan to get people working in the office again. It's crazy. We're gonna have another meeting on mesh. Anybody, we'll get it back in the office. Anybody you want, you wanna see people, you gotta come in <laugh>.

Richard Campbell (01:03:32):
And again, they're always missing the main opportunity, which is I don't want to, I don't want to customize myself. I wanna customize all the people I'm looking

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:03:38):
At. Uhhuh <affirmative>, I love it. Yeah. Right. I hadn't thought about that.

Richard Campbell (01:03:42):
So it's like, I always know who you are not cuz I recognize your face, but because, you know, I've stuck bows with a clown on your face. That's what your input's been worth to me. So, no,

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:03:49):
And only you would see that, I think. Right? That's right. Yeah, exactly. That is an opportunity. I'm gonna talk. I, you know, I'll ask Phil Libin, he's got a program called a mm-hmm <affirmative> that changes your background, Phil. Can we do that to other people? Yeah. That's the way to,

Richard Campbell (01:04:04):
You wanna make this product successful? Let me shape my view of the company into what I believe I really see.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:04:10):
Right? It would just be clowns. Cuz everyone loves a clown. Everybody

Richard Campbell (01:04:13):

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:04:14):
A clown. You know, speaking of clowns, Microsoft Edge is getting a this must have hurt. You write this major UI revamp. I listen, I'm, I'm God nobody, nobody has the problems I have. I I think that's clear to say. So I have this book that I wrote there. I, there are several chapters about Microsoft Edge. One of the problems with Microsoft Edge is that Microsoft changes it like every single month. And some of the changes they've made in recent months are pretty dramatic, right? The book is pretty visual. There's lots of screenshots. I gotta update screenshots. It's a pain in the butt. So I kind of went back and I looked at it, I found some interesting changes they've made by the way, that are not major, but they're very sly. And I, there's, so I've been kind of, you know, integrating that into the book.

Last week I decided, I said, you know what, I can, I can get the new UI through the, you know, the what do you call it? The the flags interface, right? I can, I'm gonna turn this new UI on. I'm gonna start doing this screen. I'm just gonna do it. And, and I did a whole, an entire I swear of God, I, I, I took 80. It took edited and posted 80 screenshot. Hmm. And then they announced this thing yesterday. Oh yeah, we're redesigning Edge. I'm like, excellent. I'm on top of this. I already, I'm, I already have it. I don't care. And I looked at one of their screenshots and I said, God damn it, that is not what I just took screenshots of <laugh>, they changed it again. It's different. Again, I have to redo everything. I just did. I, I'm like, what fucking, I'm trying.

Okay. And then here's the kicker though. So aside from my problems with obviously only impact me I, I have to say, I, I actually really like this new UI <laugh>. I can't stand edge. I don't think anyone should use Edge. Don't recommend it. But it is beautiful. Looks, it's beautiful, it's really nice. But what's, whats really, what's wrong with Edge? Why shouldn't I use it? Why should use it? Because it does absolutely nothing to prevent you from being tracked around the internet, despite major UI suggesting otherwise. You can, you can actually subvert most of it by using extensions. Right. Privacy Badger. I we're gonna know, this is, I'm sorry, this is in the back of the book. I'm gonna talk about this. But okay. Microsoft Edge is, is dangerous to use as Google Chrome. Okay. It's just that the corporate giant, you might as well use Chrome.

You might as well just use Yeah, you might as well. 90% of the world uses Chrome. So, except for this, I mean, I will say I, like I said, I like the new UI looks, I really like it. And yeah. <Laugh>, I dunno. What do you like about the new ui? It's very clean, right? It's very simple. It's pretty, it, it, it, honestly, I, I never felt that edger, the browser, you know, I use brave. I, I don't really feel that it's out of place in Windows 11. But I will say when you bring this new UI up, it, it, it fits right. It it is, it's beautiful. It just looks like Windows 11. And I think you're gonna see them make this kind of a, a re styling across Windows 11. They're gonna do it to File Explorer. I think you're gonna see more apps kind of take on this look and feel.

It's just really nice. It's, it's, it's just, it's elegant. Look, a guy. I mean, I hate to compliment it. I hate it, but it, it's <laugh> really nice <laugh>. So, yeah. It's cl it's a very, it's clean interface I have to say. I've always thought that. It's nice, simple. It's nice. Yeah, it is nice. I, I yeah, they, they're adding new things. I think workspaces might have come out of preview, or maybe it's in a broader preview. Microsoft Edge for Business is not a new browser, but there's this new experience coming. You actually have to be in a business <laugh> meaning you're you know, signing in with a a d and then you can enable it. And this allows you to kind of keep your, you know, your work and your home stuff separate, basically. Kind of interesting.

It seems to be enabled similarly to profiles or workspace, you know co-pilot integration. Obviously that stuff is very interesting. Like I said, like, you know, if you want to do image generation type stuff and you don't want to pay the bill or whatever, you do it right in Veg, it's free <laugh>. It just works. It's pretty good. And also, unlike chat G p T, it's not like a square, which is kind of a weird thing. I know you can expand it out later, but it will generate images of reasonable proportions, if that makes sense. So there's other new stuff going on with Edge, but yeah, I, <laugh> I can't stand edge and I just, I like the way it looks. You, you're not getting, you're not seeing the new ui there right now yet, by the way, but, oh, okay. I'll get that. I will explain how in the back of the book. Good. Save that for later. Cause it's not, it's not out and stable yet. Okay.

Richard Campbell (01:08:45):
Please tell me you wanna talk about the Xbox thing? Cuz I'm, I am just staring at this acquisition going, my God.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:08:53):
All right. Okay. Alright. But I get, before we do, I just gotta ask Leo one question. You heard about Neva, obviously. Yeah. Mom. Yeah. So I have gotten several people asking me what you are gonna do, <laugh>. So what are you gonna do, Leo? Well, you know, that Google search I hear is a real up and coming search engine. <Laugh>, the reason I I wanted a replacement for Google search was not so much for tracking. I mean, certainly that's legit. Yeah. But just because increasingly Google search is not giving me search results, it's giving me a lot of know, top of the, I love the fold stuff is just a bunch of crap. Yeah, that's right. And sponsors. Yeah. So, I don't know. Duck Duck. Go start page. I, you know what I research. I loaded brave because of you to see how Brave Search was.

It's pretty great. Brave search is no good. It's not great. It's no good. Brave is great. Brave Search is not so great. Maybe Bing, I don't know what I'm gonna do. All right. Listen, listen. Don't get don't don't, don't crazy. Get on me. <Laugh>, help me. It's not that too short. Friends, all my friends use being is Duck Doco. What should I use? I don't know. I use Google. I have to, I mean, I can't, it's like you're shooting yourself on the face. Neva was pretty close. Neva was pretty close. I have to say to the Google results. I was happily using Niga Neva and paying five bucks a month. There is another one that's even more, that's 10 bucks a month. Yeah. somebody was recommending to me, I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head, but I guess, you know, I'm until I come along found something better, I'll, I'll go back to, here's an idea.

I don't, I don't, I don't have an exact exact example of this, but it has to exist. I use an extension in my browser to clean up the Twitter ui. Cause I don't like all this garbage, you know? Yeah. Yeah. There's gotta be an extension that will get rid of all the sponsor crap. And Google Search's gotta be, oh, there must be gotta be. That's a good question. Yeah, I bet there is. I do not know. I don't either, but I bet there, I just thought of it as we were talking. I, there's gotta be clean Google. You got clean Gmail, why not clean Google? That's gotta be, that's actually a great idea. Anyway, something to look up. I I, you know, that's an idea. Yeah, there's, you know, I just, I feel, I'm sad because Neva, you know, they were kind of intimating.

They were taking features out. I had a feeling they were about to pivot. They just, you know, the problem was five bucks a month was enough to live on if enough people bought it. But nobody even knew about it. Not enough people. It, oh, and by the way, that is the part of the story. And it speaks to my comments earlier about Bing, which is this. They said, you know, people who use this thing loved it. People didn't mind paying for it. The problem was getting people to switch from the default search engine. Nobody was interested in this. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And this is the problem Microsoft's gonna face with with Bing. You know, if in some magical future where Bing search was actually better all the time, and this AI stuff was unique to Bing, I still feel like they'd have a hard time, you know, getting people to switch. I just think it's, I just don't, you know, I don't, I don't think people wanna switch, you know, the thing we just raised, which is true. This all the garbage at the top. I mean, it says a lot where people are like, yeah, I don't care. I'm just gonna put up with this. Like, right. Mm-Hmm. no. Cause

Richard Campbell (01:11:59):
As soon as you take respons people, any of it, then you have to take responsibility for all of it. Oh, you're gonna start carry about privacy now. Well, that's a lot for you to care about. Yeah.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:12:08):
Right. Yeah.

Richard Campbell (01:12:08):
And, and the, and the default of just like, eh, whatever. It's, it's psychologically consistent. I don't own any of it. I'm not worried about it.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:12:17):

Richard Campbell (01:12:19):
Oh, wow. All right. I'm gonna go.

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:12:20):
Yep. Mr. Richard Campbell, God bless you. Straight to have you see hi to Mr. Rossovich. Get him on the show sometime. I

Richard Campbell (01:12:26):
Will. We'll see what we can do. All right. All

Leo Laporte/Paul Thurrott (01:12:28):
Take care. See ya. Richard Campbell runners radio dot com. Now we go back to the pure Paul Throt, the goodness you've always expected. The gooey center of this cookie that is Windows Weekly <laugh>. Anything else in this rundown that you wanna talk about? Oh, in the, in the pre-ex Xbox? We can get to the Xbox whenever you're in the mood, but I think we're Xbox. I think we're, I think we're good chat. G P T comes to the iPhone, the real chat. G P t. Not, not some interesting that they would go to the iPhone first. <Laugh>. Yeah. Isn't that, yeah. Well, they'd go to Windows phone if they could.

I just resuscitated I think it was 13 Windows phones. What? And yeah, I still have a bunch of old devices. So I brought 'em, I brought 'em back up. I reset 'em just to see what would happen. And yeah, they all work fine. They most of 'em had the right date and time, and I <laugh> it's like, what's going on? I, but it was a, a sad reminder of how excellent that those phones were. It was so good. Anyway, even, even I think that Oh, so sad. Really lost. I looked at this and I thought, my God, you could make a run with this right now. Yeah. I like, this would work right now. Well, maybe now's the time. Yep. Just license Android and run Android apps on it too. And it could work. They're close. Beautiful. Call it the iPhone.

Yeah, anything so anyway, now yeah, so chat GPTs on the iPhone. So yeah, whatever. Bing is the default search engine. Now when chat G P T it was a little bit like when apple made internet Explorer, the default <laugh> browser on the back. I dunno if anyone remembers that. When Microsoft made that investment, you know, that kind of helped save the company. Most people are just gonna switch, right? I mean, so I can't imagine most chat G P T users are gonna want to use Bing, but, okay. So that's most of the ba I think that's most of the bill stuff, right? I think we pretty much, yeah, I think we did a good job. And of course, if you didn't see either day one or day two, we put them both on the news feed, tweet tv slash news.

You can watch on day one, rich Campbell and I going over the contents as as they happened. And then on day two, Paul, Richard and I I don't know if we said it on the show. I know we said it, oh, maybe we did maybe sit it up front. May, may by repeating. I, I really wanted to see some hint of Windows 12 in this keynote, and I didn't expect it, but I, that's what I wanted. I was hoping to see it. And then when it ended, I thought, oh, that's too bad. I didn't really do anything. But it was you who said no, actually, I think, I think they kind of did. Like, the, the sidebar thing is the co-pilot is Windows 11, and this thing where they infuse it is, maybe that's Windows 12. And and I, that brings true to me.

I think that's, yeah, that's the, the evolution of this thing. So we're gonna add it to Windows 11, which is this existing thing. But maybe the vision for Windows 12, which by the way, I've been, I have been talking for about, for a while, is the AI release in words. How that's gotta be a massive rewrite. We're not rewrite, but that's a big change. Yeah. yeah, I don't know. I mean, I it's you know, well, let's take him at his word. You know Stevie Petit said you're gonna have fewer window or toolbar and buttons and things cuz you don't need 'em anymore. Right. That maybe Windows actually become simpler because we won't have the need for all this ui. I mean, in a way though, my fear is it'll turn it into a command line again, that when you, instead of, you know, having a, this is a prompt, right?

You just asked me questions. So if a button for dark mode, you have to type turn on dark mode. You know, I gotta tell you, pardon of me would embrace that <laugh>, but yeah, I don't, I don't keep on the keyboards. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Well, you could talk to it too, right? I mean, I they did all this, going back to Windows Mobile days. Microsoft has been doing speech to text and obviously all the Katana stuff natural language input. I mean, it's just, you know, happen. I don't know. I don't really <laugh> well, I mean, I use a command line all the time, but I don't really want to go to a command line. No, I don't, I really don't see that either. But I, but it's not really a command line, right? This is like more of a zurk interpreter.

It's a natural language. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, it's not about, and it understands what you want and does it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But again, I don't, I think that's less efficient. It's, yeah. I, you know, well, I mean, just, I, I mean, so think about a classic Microsoft Office application, like Word and, and before the Ribbon, when it was all menus and toolbar and how bulked up it got, and they're like, all right, we're gonna, this ribbon thing, we're gonna simplify it. You know? And the demos they did when, when they said they were using Word during that keynote, during the, in, in the videos, the, the word they were using was Word on the web. And it was a, it really stripped down ui. Interesting. Simplified toolbar kind of a thing. And I, I, that's been the kind of progression for apps on Windows at least.

And I would say on the Mac too. Like, I don't use the Mac a lot, but you know, when you start bringing in things like Catalyst and you're influenced by the design decisions that you make on mobile. Yeah. Yeah. Uis tend to be simpler. I thi I think you're starting to see this everywhere. I mean, I, I we're, I, I think we're a little overloaded with stuff, you know? Do you think of voice interfaces? I mean, we've tried this. I think it's one way to do it. Just like, you know, it's like, like someone who would say in the past, like, I think tablet, PCs are the future. I think people are gonna interact with pens, you know, to which I say I'm a writer and I can't write with a pen anymore. I, I, yeah. I can't, my hand cramps up writing a check.

I did know the post office yesterday. I couldn't write out an address without like, you know, shaking my hand. It's like, I can't, I just don't have that dexterity anymore. But some people just ordered whatever, and that probably is a mistake. The new Kindle scribe. Yeah, of course. You have gotta try it, right? It's a, it's a Kindle, but it's a big Kindle. Yeah. With a opposing scribe. I'm sorry, I was thinking of the new little surface prol looking thing. I have a, I have a remarkable or the remarkable two, but this is, but it's not a book reader. It's just a note taker. Right. This is a Kindle, a book reader. It integrates with Microsoft Word. Right. It does that stuff too. Yeah. Yeah. You can actually email your notes to Word. Yep. it's got handwriting to text conversion. They just added that.

That's actually what put me over the top is they finally added the features that make it more interesting. You can actually be reading a book and annotate it directly on the book with your pen. Nice. So it's much more natural. So it comes with a pen, then comes with a pen. Yeah. Anyway, I'll show you when it comes. I wanna say eight. It's bigger. It's bigger than a normal. I would, I would move back to Kindle for reading right now. If they could just do Color E ink. Ah, just, just, I would give anything they could in theory. I have a color E Ink seven color E ink screen I've been messing with for ask the Tech Guy. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Let me see how big the well, I, I guess the, to your question though, I, I think handwriting or voice I is just one way.

Right? It's one. Yeah. I mean, that's my problem. I don't want to start typing a lot more on a Google, I don't think. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 10. Well, it depends on what you do. 10.2 inches. It's iPad size. That's what it is. It's almost an iPad. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's probably eight by 10. It's probably paper sized. Here you go. Well, no, I can't be because it's 10.2 diagonal. Oh. that, no, that's about, is that about right? That's about eight and a half. Yeah. That's pretty, pretty, pretty close to a and a half by 11. Yeah. I guess it is. 85 instead of 88. Yeah. Yeah. I guess you're right. Yeah. I'll bring it in and you can, you can watch me tie write on it. <Laugh>. Yeah. I'm curious about it. It's got a backlight, which the remarkable did not have, so I couldn't read it in bed.

I, I'm just intrigued by it. Used to have the little wore the world's lamp off of Kindle before they, right. I had that. And then I had you know, I tried various clamps on the bed. I finally got a thing that goes around your neck. It has two lights. That's funny. You look like, you know, you're maybe or something, you know, exploring the deep <laugh>. Yeah. Right around here. Yeah. But it, but it stays on it. It stays pointed at the screen. I don't know. Anyway, I won't need that anymore. Think I'm sure I've owned every single Kindle ever made other than Oh, as have I, as have I. This is, this, is that 300 ppi? You know, the first ones with back lighting? It was, it was like, you could see the lights kind of there. That's terrible. Brighter one.

And then eventually they smoothed, finally figured it out, and it's now got a, you know, a yellowish light at nighttime. Yeah. There you go. That's, anyway, that's a little, I'm sorry. The digression. I apologize. <Laugh>. It's okay. Yeah, no one, you know, whatever we can speculate about Windows 12. I, I think it's gonna support, oh yeah. Uis. Yeah. We were trying to think of what's the best ui. I don't know. I don't think there is the best ui. I think we just use different things. Yeah. let us here. Lemme take a break. Actually, no, we, we yeah, let me take a break and then we'll do the Xbox segment if you if you please. And of course, the back of the book, our show today, we were talking a little bit about Loop, talking a little bit about the idea of a kind of unified interface to your work that isn't mouse driven.

It isn't command line driven. What is it? This is Miro. I've been thinking about this. This is exactly what Miro offers. Miro, M i r o. You might look at it. In fact, this is the thing I wanna try to get people not to do and say, oh yeah, I know that I've, I've used things like that. It's it's like loop or it's like it's like a whiteboard. No, it's not. Let me put it this way. You have a team. Maybe your team is all in the office if you're lucky. Or maybe there's some at home, some in the office. Maybe there's some in a different time zone. How do you keep them all on the same page? Quite literally. Miro, if your team is going from tab to tab and tool to tool, you know, every time there's a context switch, you've noticed this, you walk through a door, you forget what you are going to do.

That's because that door is a context switch. Every time you switch to another program, it's another context switch. And your brain leaves these stuff that you were thinking about behind. You lose data every time you switch tabs or switch tools with Miro, that doesn't have to happen. Miro is a collaborative visual platform that brings all your great work together, no matter where you are, no matter where you did it. You can use Google Docs and Zapier and all, you know, hundreds of different integrations, whether you're working at home in a hybrid workspace, whether you're working in different time zones, cuz Miro is always there. So somebody gets up, it's the middle of the night for you, they're getting up and starting their day. They can go and see what's been done by the team where you stand. You can zoom in and out. So you can see that the 30,000 foot level, or you can get down to the nitty gritty details.

It's a, it's got but it, and it has so many different templates. In fact, my strong recommendation, if you're thinking about this, first of all, you should know Miros gonna give you your first three boards free. So go right now to Make an account. Get those first three boards, but also look at the Miro verse. That's where they've collected templates from many, many Miro users. It's the best way to get an idea. I mean, it can be a can ban. You can have swim lane charts. You can have timers. So you can use a Zoom meeting, have a timer, icebreakers it's com. It's complete, you know, graphical text, doesn't matter. Perfect for cross-functional teams. Sticky notes, comments, live reactions. There's a voting tool. What do you think of this? Or who likes this versus that? You can express. What I like about it is it'll, it opens the door to creativity.

No matter how you are, what kind of thinker you are, what kind of creative you are, whether you like to sketch or type or however you like to brainstorm, you can do that. Your whole group though can do that in one space around one idea. Miro users report saving 80 hours per user per year by streamlining conversations and cutting down meetings. This is a much better solution than a meeting. The end result. Miro gives your team the chance to always stay connected to realtime information. It gives project managers, product leads, a bird's eye view of the whole product. Make sure nothing slips through the cracks. Start working better. Get your first three boards for free and try it. Miro.Com/Podcast, m i r You'll be amazed at what you can do. Miro.Com/Podcast. Now let's get some Xbox. You'll be amazed at what Paul can do.

So I feel like I've been covering and following this Microsoft Activision bli, I think pretty closely. So it was with some confusion that I saw the headline, which I then parroted, unfortunately, my China is the 37th country to, okay, the Activision BLI acquisition. I thought 37 <laugh>. When did that happen? <Laugh> 37. Because European Union has like 20 something countries in it. Oh, this doesn't care. Or whatever. Yeah. So really it's been, I I I, I've been trying to find an exact number and for some reason I can't, but it, I believe it's like eight or nine regulatory bodies have okayed it. One of them has 29 countries or something, whatever the number is. So that's where comes from. But <laugh> anyway, I was just like 20 sorry, it's 27. Yeah, so 27 of the 37 countries that have approved the deal Oh.

Are part of the eu, which Oh, well approved it as per deal. Okay, fine. So, okay. I was like, did I still, 10 is amazing. The 10 different countries think they have a, a dog in this hunt. Did they think they should have the right to say yes or no to Microsoft's acquisition of activism? Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of mind blowing. One of them is Japan Sony's home country. Just pointing that out. And then today, in fact, while you were doing that ad, I just saw online that Microsoft has just filed their appeal of the uk C m A decision. Right? That's the regulatory body in the uk. The that competitive markets agency or something. Yeah. Yeah. Authority. I think. Yeah. Authority. Yeah. I, you know, I think it's competition and markets authority. I think. I hope they throw that thing out.

That's a, that's just, now you're really looking silly uk. Yeah. I just, I love that they came out snarly after the EU approved it. We still think we're right. Okay. Okay, guys, settle. Speaking of ridiculous <laugh>, have you heard of the so-called gamers lawsuit? A small group of individuals in the United States decided to get together and sue Microsoft what to halt the sale of activation Blizzard. These <laugh> this case is awesome. They the plaintiffs who were described as a group of recreational video game players, <laugh> argued that Microsoft would make Call of Duty exclusive to Microsoft platforms, and that the merger would lead to inflated prices for future games. You probably know these guys. I know. Well, the thing is, they don't even play them. They live all over the country. They're like, they communicate with their friends and family regularly via the game as normal people do <laugh> and they play games with these ga these games with friends that, and it enhances their quality of life.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so the rule, the ju federal judge said, yeah. <Laugh>, the day after this merger goes through, you can, you can make this argument and we'll see what happens then. But also the day after this merger goes through, you can play the game in exactly the same way as you play it today. It's not like they, they turn like a a, a siphon off or something. Call of Duty goes away. Like it's just what a waste of time. This like, is this so stupid? They also pointed out that Microsoft has made legal legally binding agreements not to do what these people are describing. So whatever. Stupid. Yeah. But 10 years from now, I won't be able to I know. Flag my mom. I know, I know. All right. Sorry. Sorry. I shouldn't snark baby. Hail you bring Be good again in 10 years and bring out in me <laugh>.

Bring out the sn in me, Paul. It's nice to be influential, sort of. So I don't want anyone to be like me. So semi-related to the or No, actually related to this, one of the many 10 year deals that Microsoft made was one with Nvidia to make its games available on GForce. Now, GForce now is a cloud streaming service for PC games. Right? So the very first of those games has just, I'm sorry, is appearing yet. It's appearing tomorrow. I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. Today. So, gears five is available today over a GForce. Now death Loop grounded in sentiment are coming tomorrow, and then more games are coming in the future. So this is one of the agreements they made, and that's already happening. So regardless of what ha Well, yeah. Regardless of what happens with Activision Blizzard Microsoft's PC games are starting to come to a rival service.

So there you go. The things I like about Microsoft, unlike some other companies, <laugh>, they aren't, they aren't petulant. There aren't companies out there. I mean, they can be, I'm looking at uf, but there are companies out there Sure. Who if they lost the right to do this merger would like do something nasty, something mean. Yeah, that's right. Right, right. That's right. Well, in that case, you can't play games of war on PlayStation or something. I don't know what, I don't think they're that at one point bring Microsoft, do the Minecraft thing. Crash platform. Yeah. Sony, Sony's for sure the worst. Sony's petant stupid. I don't like it when these, when these big companies act like teenagers is just dumb. That's terrible. Just dumb game. Playing games is about bringing people together so they can kill each other. <Laugh>. I, I mean, why? Let's get it straight.

Why would you limit <laugh>? I wanna strife everybody <laugh>. Although I, I have to say, I, I would like to turn off PC players in college duty, but anyway you got a fight for your right to Flag me's, right? <Laugh>. <laugh>, exactly. With a controller. A controller, yeah. That's my preference, but, you know, whatever. No keyboards allowed in our club <laugh>. Mm-Hmm. And then Sony just announced that they've sold over 600,000 Ps VR two headsets, which is actually kind of incredible because if I, I don't know why I just said it True. We'll assume it's true. They said it. This thing has come under a lot of fire because it's super expensive, right? It's, it's more expensive than the console. It's a lot more expensive than the original. It's, it's almost twice as expensive, and yet it is actually outselling, its predecessor in the same six week as the six weeks.

It's still a fraction of the total PlayStation ownership, right? I mean, oh, yeah. It's tiny. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's not like everybody's buying it. No, no. But I mean, PlayStation, they made a pretty good business of VR in the previous gen, and obviously they're trying again. I mean, I, I, everyone assumed this thing was gonna flop immediately. They'd have to lower the price, yada, yada, yada. But it's pretty good. So, yeah, it's pretty pretty. I I think if you own a PlayStation, it's kind of the easiest way to try vr. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yep. It's cheaper than almost anything else. Yeah. I mean, I'm not, I'm not doing it, but No, you know, there Sarah, if you want it. I'm not. It's a vr I'm not a a VR bowl. No, no. And there's a lot of people in the Xbox space are like, I don't understand why Microsoft doesn't do this.

Like, are you kidding me? They can barely do a console, guys, let's, let's stick to the basics here. Yeah. Yeah. And I, plus I think they're initiatives in mobile in particular, although sadly very unrealized is, is a much bigger and better bet than vr. That's a, that's a much bigger market to go after. They're smart to do that. Yeah. Just have done it poorly. Okay. let's see. Right. Yeah. So can I, what's, can I shift to the back of the book or do you have to do a, you may now, having done everything we need to do in terms of monetization, except remind people to join Club Twit $7 a month for ad free versions of all the shows, including this guy's Hands on Windows, which is only available in the club. If you wanna know more, twit it really is worth the seven bucks.

And it's a great way to support what we do. If you like what we do, become a paying member. You won't have to hear ads and Yep. And you get these other shows. You get all these other shows, which is great. Now it's time for the back of the book, Paul. So I don't know if you knew this, but Jean Luie Gase. Yes. Former Apple Executive c e o and co-founder of B Inc. Has published a, a book Oh. About his experiences in the computer Instagram. I didn't, I was so buy it. So, well let <laugh> you should buy it. But let me just preface this by saying it's great. Yeah, it is. Way too short. Oh, it's only 225 pages long mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And I just wanna, I want people to understand why this matters. This guy came up out of Apple, France, and he went to Cupertino.

He ran the Mac business after Steve Jobs left the company. This is who he, this is who he is. This is what he did. He told John Scully not to go to a trip to China because Steve Jobs was gonna try to have a boardroom coup and get him fired and take over his c e o. What happened instead was that Steve, Steve jobs was fired and John or John Scully remained as c e o. Now you could look at back on this years later and say, oh, that was a stupid mistake. Look how successful Steve Jobs was later. But what that ignores is the fact that he was incredibly unsuccessful right at next. And that his experience with that is what made him the person he was later. And that's why he was able to be successful at that time. If he had stayed at Apple, he might've run that thing, probably would've run that thing into the ground, because he certainly did do that with Next.

So John Louis Gase has played an incredible role in our industry. The other thing he might be famous for is he was his company b was one of two ch well, actually, it was kind of the top choice for a while to become the next version of the Mac Os. And he did lose out Steve Jobson next. Steve Jobs had completely given up on Next Step by that point, and had to be convinced, go after this. But it was his way back to Apple, et cetera, et cetera. The, the thing I remember him for personally is o other than knowing about him from Apple history, by reading books, was He, while It Be, and then after B had an incredible tech blog. And I, I thought when I saw he had written this book, that that's what this was gonna be.

It was gonna be a collection of his writings. I, I still to this day follow him online. He publishes on Medium now, and I, that's how I found out about the book. I actually, I read, I read him regularly. So knowing how much I like this guy, and he, he does a lot of Apple analysis now, which I'm not super interested in, but I just, I just like the guy. I do read his Monday note blog. It's quite good. He's very smart. Yeah. Good. It's great. Yeah. And you know, he has the industry bonafides, you know? Right. So I bought this book immediately. It's only seven or eight bucks on Kendall. Who cares? I finished it like a day. I was like, what is, what happened? What is this <laugh>? It's the, and, and to give you an idea of how short it is, I just described how he stopped John Scully from going to China.

This is one of the most pivotal moments in the, in the indu in personal computing history ever. It, it's up there with the guys from BM not getting to digital research and then going to Microsoft as plan B. It's up there with Microsoft choosing to license Ms. Os, but not sell it to ibm. Right. And establishing them as an OS platform company. It is one of the most important moments in history in the computer industry. He, one paragraph <laugh> in the book. Wow. One paragraph. Wow. I would give anything to sit down with this guy and write the proper version of this book, which should be a thousand pages long, and really go into these events. Interesting because he, he was there for a lot of very interesting stuff. His speech, it's a good book writer. It's worth reading. When he was Apple, his speech writer is a friend of mine.

Oh, really? Yeah. She interesting. She wrote all his speeches and she's a very good writer. Maybe she, what's her name? Her name is Jenny Abbey. She, he, he needed her to write his book. Maybe <laugh>, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. That's, he just doesn't like you. I still think he should read it. I, I, I think Will a lot of people don't know who this guy is. Yeah. B o s was incredible. Oh, I agree. In, in fact, people still B os think of it as the OS that got away, you know, that this is what it is. It was it was inspired by the A omega in the sense that they went with like they did a multiprocessor system. I don't people remember this. The first they had a B box. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> hardware. They two, they did hardware.

Yeah, two pro they were, it was pre it wasn't Power pc. The first version was something else. It was something different, but they eventually went power R p C, and of course then they poured to Intel and blah, blah, blah, whatever. But yeah, that's the, the b like the Amiga is one of those great. Could have been, should have been kind of stories in the industry. I absolutely agree. Yeah. Incredible. Just incredible. There is a, a port of the B os called Haiku, which is still around, but I don't, I don't think it really lives up to, and you could run Amigo if you wanted to do, but, or you could just get <inaudible> if it's sad, I, because I, I wish this stuff had happened, <laugh>. Yeah. You know? Yeah. anyway, it's called Great Grateful Gate, 50 years of Apple and other tech adventures.

I, I don't think pe enough people know about this man and, and, and should look him up. I'm ordering it now on my new kind scribe <laugh>. Yeah, you'll finish it before I'm done with the ap, so it's really short. That's sad. Usually I say books are too long, but, oh, well, I know. No, not this one. <Laugh>. I couldn't believe I finished. I was like, wait, am I, how did I, what happened here? I'm like, is it over something? Is it over? Does he at least cover everything? I mean, he covers the whole story, right? He isn't, okay. Yeah. But it's like I said, one paragraph. Yeah. That event. I, yeah, that, that event was an entire chapter, you know, and Zen John sk wished to go to China, but I said no, and he stopped. Well, John Scully wrote autobiography, I think it was called Odyssey.

There are a bunch of Apple books from that period where his story is told in much more detail. Yeah. Yeah. You should read those two, but, you know, all right, I will, I just can't believe it. I'm, I'm sure his attitude was like, eh, this story's already been told. I was like, dude, <laugh>, he's humble. Maybe he's a humble guy and he just he's not a humble guy. He's French <laugh>. He's, you know, he's not, he's not humble, but Grateful Geek, 50 years of Apple and other two adventures, I dunno, with one page per year by genre <laugh>. Really? Pretty much. I mean, it's, that's too bad. Anyway, do, do buy it. He's a good guy. App of the week is sounds like it's coming outta left field a little bit, but if you want to test that new Microsoft Edge ui, you need to get the beta version of Microsoft Edge.

That's how you get it. It will be on Stable, as I call it next month. Right. So probably on past Tuesday, I don't know the exact day, but somewhere around the eighth ish I think. So if you don't want to wait, just download the Edge Beta channel version and you can get the new UI and some other new features. But the, the new UI for sure if you are gonna use Edge, I mentioned this, you asked me like, what's wrong with Edge? The biggest thing is privacy and tracking. Definitely, definitely, definitely install Privacy Badger and Ad Block Plus. There, there're, you get 'em from Chrome. The, the Chrome web story, you can get 'em from the I think it's called the Edge add-on story. It doesn't matter where you get 'em, they're all compatible. So don't dare use this browser without getting external tracking protection.

Can, I guess because it's a chromium, I could install you Block Origin. Yep. That works too. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I use the EF F has that cover your track site? Yeah. And if you if you go to it with Edge out of the box, you get a bunch of red flags. It doesn't stop anything. Wow. It doesn't stop a thing. You don't have a unique fingerprint. Doesn't stop Blockers, doesn't third party, nothing. It doesn't block anything. But if you install Privacy Badge or at Black Plus, you'll be up all green. It's all good, and you should, Hmm. Okay. But don't use Edge. Seriously. You're better than ladies and gentlemen. That is it for Windows Weekly. For this week, we we had a, we started with about an hour and a half of the keynote which you can get at twit tv slash news.

And honestly, I think it's, I would say skip to the very end with this Steve Batist, but maybe watch Panos just to maybe watch that first for the humor of it. And Jah was okay. Oh boy. Jah was very, I said, corporatey said, I said this at the time. I, I did not, my intent was not to mock or make fun of somebody or whatever. I find it really hard to watch him on the best of times, Panos, it became it. Yeah. And it became very clear that I, this was it. It almost felt unrehearsed. And, and I think, I think his fire was taken. I think they, I think they took the content. I think he got over He was the worst of Panos. It was all the stuff we don't like about Panos. Yeah. Without any of the meats. I mean, I, I, I don't think it's his fault entirely, although I don't think he's a good speaker at all.

I, I, but Stevie Batist, man, turn that around. It's worth, definitely watch that part of it. That's the best part. Yep. Absolutely. Well worth watching the end. And our commentary, of course, as usual, crystalin in its purity of Thought <laugh>. Yep. I mean, between that show and this show in many ways, this shortest version of Windows Weekly is really the longest version. <Laugh>. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Paul Throt That's his blog. His newest book is Windows Everywhere. Kind of a hin history of Windows from a developer's perspective, which is fascinating. I can tell you I would've given more than a paragraph to the Apple Steve Jobs thing. I mean, which yeah. You know. Yeah. It's a chapter. You gotta learn how to write a book, buddy. Come on. He needs a ghost writer, Paul. You can you can volunteer for him.

I would do it. I would do it. Lean to get windows everywhere. Lean You choose your own price. He also has the field guide to Windows 11, which is constantly updated. So that is really a great way to get it. So you get the updates as well. Lean includes Windows 10 and of course Richard Campbell, who is no longer with us, oh, hold on. He's only temporarily <laugh>. He's careful. He will be back next week. But you can catch him. We're more the loss of Richard Campbell who will be here next week. He'll be here next week. We only lost him for a few minutes with more brown Liquor and lots more windows News. If you wanna watch us do it live, we do it right around 11:00 AM Pacific. That's 2:00 PM Eastern, 1800 UTC of a Wednesday.

Tune in, watch it There's audio or video, so you could listen live to. And if you're doing that chat, live at IRC dot twit tv or if you're a club member in the Club, twit Discord. If and by the way, if you're in the club and you're in the Discord, you can get sign up to get notifications. I don't ever mention this, but you could sign up to get notifications when a show starts. And we try to do that so that you can be, you know, chatting in the Discord or wherever, and you'll get a little notification saying, okay, windows Weekly, let's go. And you can go right into the Windows Weekly section. That's one of the many, many benefits of Discord. I really like Discord as a platform. Let's see, what else? Oh, after the fact, you can get copies of the show at our website, twit TV slash ww Paul, of course, always links to it on

Paul also does, I should mention, I never mentioned this daily show with Brad Sams every morning, first Ring Daily. So if you want to get like, your daily hit of Windows News and, and sro, you're like two idiots making fun of each other for 15 minutes, <laugh>. Yeah, it's a quickie. It's a easy way to start the day. Yeah. Be I think worth subscribing to an addition to Windows Weekly, so you've got something, you know, on your way to work, and then you can have something on the way home or that kind of thing. What else? We are on YouTube. There's a YouTube channel. If you go to twit tv slash ww, you'll see a link to that. You'll also see links to major podcast players. You can subscribe by clicking the link or using the RSS feed.

Or easiest search for Windows Weekly in your podcast directory. And you'll find it and you can subscribe and get it automatically as soon as it's ready. We have audio and video of this show in all of our shows. Paul, thank you. Have a great week. You, you too. You going to Mexico soon? Yeah. Assuming that Volcano doesn't destroy the city. Yeah. or prevent air flights, I guess would be the bigger issue. Yeah. yes. Just, what is it? Jan? Sorry, where am I? July 6th. Oh, good. All right, good. So you'll be here for the 4th of July and then it's awesome. We'll, tomb Old Mexico. Thanks, Paul. We'll see you next time on Windows Weekly. Listeners of this program, get an ad free version if they're members of Club twit. $7 a month gives you ad free versions of all of our shows plus membership in the club. Twit Discord, a great clubhouse for twit listeners. And finally, the Twit plus feed with shows like Stacy's book Club, the Untitled Lennox Show, the Gizz Fizz and more. Go to twit and thanks for your support.

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