Windows Weekly Episode 818 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word.
Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show

Leo Laporte (00:00:02):
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Leo Laporte (00:00:15):
This is Windows Weekly with Richard Campbell and Paul Throt. Episode 818 recorded Wednesday, March 1st, 2023. Antitrust Theater. Windows Weekly is brought to you by Melissa. More than 10,000 clients worldwide in retail education, healthcare, insurance, finance, and government. Rely on Melissa for full spectrum data quality and ID verification software. Make sure your customer contact data is up to date. Get started today with 1000 records cleaned for free at Thanks for listening to this show. As an ad supported network, we are always looking for new partners with products and services that will benefit our qualified audience. Are you ready to grow your business? Reach out to advertise at twit tv and launch your campaign. Now it's time for Windows Weekly, the show we cover the latest from Microsoft, but our two hosts have, have news of their own. On your left. Paul Throt in the now vacated home pr practically empty. Although, you know, it's just me and the mice. You and the mice. Just kidding. There are no mice. The remains his home on the worldwide Internets. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. He also writes his Sells 'em there too with him. On your right, Mr. Richard Campbell, who is in the Auckland Airport

Rich Campbell (00:01:45):
At this very moment. Yes. There's, there's my you're

Leo Laporte (00:01:47):
New wheel house. The time zone change situation for you.

Rich Campbell (00:01:51):
It's not that bad. It's like five hours plus a day. Right? Like, it's

Leo Laporte (00:01:55):
The day. It's the day that really does it. Yeah. Five hours plus a day. What do you when March? What are you

Rich Campbell (00:01:59):
Talking? I got on the airplane Monday night. I got off the airplane Wednesday morning. Yeah. There was no Tuesday for me. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:02:06):
Okay. You'd love Yeah, yeah,

Rich Campbell (00:02:07):
Yeah. On the other hand, when I go home, I will come back. I will arrive home six hours before I left. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:02:14):
What? I love it.

Rich Campbell (00:02:15):
Wow. This time zones are complicated. While

Leo Laporte (00:02:17):
You're gone, we're gonna invent flying cars. You'll, you'll be really happy when you land <laugh> in the future. So you have another flight waiting for you when

Rich Campbell (00:02:26):
In, in a few hours. I, I'm, I'm skipping down to Queenstown, which is not too far away. Okay. But I, I have a wedding. I have a wedding to officiate tomorrow. Nice.

Leo Laporte (00:02:33):
Oh, that's right. Nice. Did you bring your preacher clothes?

Rich Campbell (00:02:36):
I did. We were a little more dressed down this time, so no suit and jacket, but there's been some bows batted back and forth, so we're tinkering with bows, so that's normal. I

Leo Laporte (00:02:46):
Dressed for the wedding, but

Rich Campbell (00:02:47):
You do, you, you look your you're ready to go. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:02:50):
Yeah. All dressed up or a funeral, one or the other. I know. I got a wild hair and I thought, well, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna dress for the job I want, not the job I have.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:01):
Here you go.

Leo Laporte (00:03:02):
And apparently what I want to be is a,

Paul Thurrott (00:03:04):
I feel like you might have jumped on that a few years

Leo Laporte (00:03:06):
Ago, but <laugh>, that's a little late.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:09):

Leo Laporte (00:03:09):
Dressed like a podcaster. Can't you tell? Look

Paul Thurrott (00:03:11):
At that. Oh, really? There you go. Uhhuh <affirmative> dress like a podcast. I'm an influencer. <Laugh>, you don't have pants on. Right. That's,

Leo Laporte (00:03:18):
That's the difference. <Laugh>. so this was an interesting week in Windows Land. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because Microsoft kind of surpri, I maybe didn't surprise you, but surprised me with this 22 H two announcement, this cumulative update which now installing over here, I installed it on my Windows on Arm Macintosh and actually got some of the new features, which is cool. Yeah. I, I, my, I had already linked your phone to my Samsung mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but, so I didn't try the iPhone linking. I'll try again. You

Paul Thurrott (00:03:54):
Can have multiple phones. Well, so you can't actually, so this is one of the many lies about this release, so don't even worry about it. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:04:00):

Paul Thurrott (00:04:00):
Alright, well,

Leo Laporte (00:04:00):
Let's, we will, let's talk about it. This'll get to this, this moment. Two, it's a, the moment of confusion you talked about earlier,

Paul Thurrott (00:04:07):
<Laugh>. That's right. Last week. So the first moment you recall was in November slash December when Microsoft added tabs in a new home screen and whatever else to file Explorer. That one was a little bit of a cluster because it was unreliable and unpredictable. And you may remember my complaining about like, multiple machines all upgraded completely, all with different experiences. Yeah. they also added the search pill, as we call it, without telling anyone they were doing it and without testing it. So that was kind of a mess and not either. Right. Like not everybody got the pill. Right. That's a Exactly Right. Although I think by this point, everyone, I, right before this, I've got it Update came out. Yeah. Everyone eventually did get it, but that, that's what I mean. It was unpredictable and kind of unreliable. So for this one, I, I, I really want to give Microsoft some credit with, with the big asterisks, <laugh>, you know, which I'll get to in a moment.

But this release plotted its way through the beta and then the release preview channel in a normal fashion is released this month for well last month, I guess the other day for people that wanna seek it and go get it. Right. It's not automatic. And then it will be available to everyone next month. I'm sorry, this month, March 14th ish with Patch Tuesday. Right. So this is, this is kind of back to form in a way, right? Right. But the asterisks is two days ago. Yesterday was February, the last day of February was the last Tuesday of February was the mythical week e that does not exist in Microsoft's Windows update schedule. And that's not when you release preview security updates. You released those like a month before the general leave. So when Microsoft started talking about this moment thing, I think the assumption was we would get the preview seeker version, if you will, in March, and then the final version in April. But they actually just rushed it right out the door. So, so

Leo Laporte (00:05:59):
We're having a moment here

Paul Thurrott (00:06:01):
Now with that out of the way, and it did break some things like companies like Startup that do oh no. Shell extensions are all broken now because of this. Oh, I explained why. But they all knew it was coming. They just didn't think it was happening this fast. This is part of the, you know, the the regurgitation problem here that Microsoft has. This is, I think of this as the Netscape model. The fix it or, or ship it and then fix it later kind of thing. Yeah. but you know what I, I, other than that, which I, you know, is a problem I would say, at least at my experience, cause I installed this on a bunch of computers, including an arm computer, including in Windows, on Arm, on a Mac reliable and, and predictable. Yeah. You know, which is the one thing that was missing last

Leo Laporte (00:06:43):
Time. Yeah. I was yeah, I was pleased. I mean, it was a pretty quick install. I'm installing it right now in my actual windows mm-hmm. <Affirmative> think Pad. But this morning installed it on the on the Windows with Arm. So you have a Mac running running in

Paul Thurrott (00:06:59):
Parallels. Yeah. We're gonna get to that in a little while. Okay. but yes, I do. Good. And good. I think that's fair. Yeah. There's some interesting things that came out of that. Yeah. but yeah, before that, let's, let's talk about the, this update and what it is, you know, and what it isn't <laugh>. Cuz there's, you know, Microsoft communication remains as elegant as always. So I already talked about the schedule. The biggest feature they touted is not much of a feature, although there is a big change in here that I think is important. And that's the search icon on the task bar, which has turned into a search box like we used to have in Windows 10. Yeah. It's

Leo Laporte (00:07:37):
Got bigger and the pill gets bigger. Even bigger.

Paul Thurrott (00:07:40):
Right. It's a horse pill now. So Microsoft is advertising this as Bing AI on the task bar, which is absolutely not what it is. It's a search box. It has a big icon on it. And depending on where you are signing up to a registering to be part of the being AI preview, what you see here will be a little different. But it will always involve going to a web browser, which means there's no bing ai in Windows. This is, they did not suddenly add AI to Windows.

Leo Laporte (00:08:09):
And I think Zach Bowen said this, or no, one of,

Paul Thurrott (00:08:13):
Oh no, I said this first. You

Leo Laporte (00:08:15):
Said it. It's an you

Paul Thurrott (00:08:16):
Wrote an article, but I I tweeted about it. The,

Leo Laporte (00:08:18):
You you okay. Credit to this guy, Paul Throt.

Paul Thurrott (00:08:21):
Oh, I immediately jumped on this. It's

Leo Laporte (00:08:23):
An ad for Bing is what it is. Oh, I'm

Paul Thurrott (00:08:25):
Sorry. I didn't say that. He did. Okay. He said that it's a ad. It's just a bing. It's a, it's a, what I said was a, it's a Bing icon that does nothing. It's a Bing ad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He did say that.

Leo Laporte (00:08:33):
We got, we got it right here. But you got open edge. It's almost an ad for Edge.

Paul Thurrott (00:08:37):
Well, but there's, okay, another asterisk here. Here's an interesting thing. So on all of my computers, again very consistent. I've not been invited into the being AI system. Oh, I'm so sorry. So, no, it's <laugh>, it's okay. When I do a search through this thing, this is different. I want you to really think about this for a second. It opens into the, the browser I chose, oh, that has never been the case. In Windows 11, when you search from the task bar, when you go to search highlights, which is what that's called, and you enter a search the window, it will open edge every single time, regardless of what browser you chose. It's not doing that for me. So here's my theory. I know everyone thinks I'm cynical. I think this was a mistake on Microsoft's part. I think they're gonna fix it <laugh>, and I think it will go to Edge <laugh> because it's actually way easier just to have it open in the darn browser.

You chose to actually code around that and make it always open and edge requires something I don't know. But I have no doubt that this is a mistake. So I was delighted to see my browser at Brave Open. I don't think that's gonna be the case. And my understanding is if you are, and I, I don't know this cause I'm not in it, but I think if you are part of this new bing, this being AI thing, I think it does actually open an edge. Well, I'm 8%, 9% there. This will go quick. This will go quick. Yeah. It was a, it was actually fairly small moment. <Laugh> yes. Well, <laugh>. So by the way, big, but big news, and we talked about this you can now configure that search thing. That's, it can be an icon, it can be the pill. Oh, hallelujah. It can be the search box or it can be gone. Right. So that's Oh, that's good. That's the way it sort of was in Windows 10. It's one of those things we lost when they moved to Windows 11. I don't wanna celebrate them fixing their regression 18 months later, per se, but I will say after the nonsense of giving us the pill without telling us in November, December. Yeah, yeah. Much appreciated. So, oh, absolutely. That's, this is what it should have been back in October, 2021. You know

Rich Campbell (00:10:32):
Was gonna tell along with this is it feels like we're finally what they, where they should have been with all of these features in the first

Paul Thurrott (00:10:37):
Place. Yes. Yes. And l l Richard, I gotta tell you, I I, I, I've mentioned this a couple times recently. I've been listening to a lot of your podcasts lately, just not for any particular reason. That's what happens. I listened to your podcast, but you did that interview with Michael Neha about Windows 11 deployment. We're gonna come back to that because I, I, he hit on, I think it was him mean, he hit on a very salient point about this release, which is which we'll get to. But my my belief is that they're not focusing on businesses purposefully for now. They're trying to get it exciting for consumers. And that by the time it is kind of forced on businesses, if you will, by the time there is an L t s Ltsc version, it will be what it should have been. I, I think that is, I don't wanna call it a strategy. I'm, I'm, you know, again, and

Rich Campbell (00:11:23):
I'm not even, I'm not even convinced that eleven's ever gonna be a significant version of enterprise. I wonder if we won't go straight to 12. Cause it clearly entered to be around 12 and Well, this is a prone to skipping versions anyway.

Paul Thurrott (00:11:33):
I, well, for sure, and I, my theories about that too, I mean, I, I, you know, sometime ago mentioned this notion that maybe 12 is the AI release requires an M P U. Yeah. That's something Businesses are never gonna, you

Rich Campbell (00:11:45):
Know. Yeah. Well they, you know, 11 was supposed to require a TPC as well, but, or TPM and, you know, yeah, that's right. Still the other thing we talked about on that show was, okay, I know it's October, 2025 for Windows 10. I'm betting it's not October, 2025.

Paul Thurrott (00:11:57):
Exactly. Like, more like 2028 <laugh>, you know? Yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:12:00):
Way, way too popular version of Windows. They will not, they will not force you to buy extended support for that. They be too. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:12:08):
Well, yeah. I, I think you're right. I do also think there's some merit to the notion that upgrading to this version is not a bigger deal than upgrading to a new Windows 10 version. Right. So we

Rich Campbell (00:12:21):
Get on the interprise size, that's why I keep doing these shows. There are some things, right. They've messed with group policy, they've messed with, with other stuff that's gonna cross tech support requirements. And so, right. They IPOs are not excited. It, it's

Paul Thurrott (00:12:34):
Reflecting, nor should they be

Leo Laporte (00:12:36):
<Laugh>. Looks like I have to re-log into my Microsoft. So

Paul Thurrott (00:12:39):
I always Yeah. I go back instead and skip that and, and just skip it.

Leo Laporte (00:12:43):
Yeah. Oh, okay. Because I, I was logged in, obviously.

Paul Thurrott (00:12:47):

Leo Laporte (00:12:47):
Oh. Oh, I'm

Paul Thurrott (00:12:48):
Stuck. Oh, now you can't, I'm stuck. You're stuck in a moment. You can't

Leo Laporte (00:12:52):
Get out. There's nothing I can do.

Rich Campbell (00:12:54):
This moment's getting bigger by the

Leo Laporte (00:12:55):
Second. Yeah. It's getting worse and worse. Oh, well, I'll, sorry. And, and by the way, because it's part of the install, I don't yet have access to my password manager. I don't. Or do I? No, I don't.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:09):
No, you don't.

Leo Laporte (00:13:10):
So I have to manually type this ridiculous, oh, wait a minute. Well wait a

Paul Thurrott (00:13:14):
Minute. If Microsoft

Leo Laporte (00:13:15):
Can just the password. Well, that last time I didn't

Paul Thurrott (00:13:18):
Yeah, you

Leo Laporte (00:13:19):
Shouldn't have to touch. I'm gonna use their recommended browser setup

Paul Thurrott (00:13:22):

Leo Laporte (00:13:23):
<Laugh>. No, don't do that.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:25):
You never do, never, never, never, never

Leo Laporte (00:13:27):
Do that. I'm gonna do it because I am a good Windows user. Oh. I'm also gonna allow, always have access to my recent browsing data. Sure. As will they, by the way. Oh, now they want my account again. <Laugh>. Yeah, of course they will.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:39):

Leo Laporte (00:13:40):
What? It was weird that they, they, they changed the That is

Paul Thurrott (00:13:42):
Weird. Yeah. Now you should never have to enter a password

Leo Laporte (00:13:45):
Though, right? Because I'm, I'm, I use my fingertip to log in. Well,

Paul Thurrott (00:13:49):
I mean, you have tofe though, right? On this account.

Leo Laporte (00:13:51):
Yeah. And so it should, you should be. You could be my authenticator prompt, but I'm not.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:55):
That's exactly right. I've never seen it do that on a two a protected Microsoft account.

Leo Laporte (00:14:01):
<Laugh>, it doesn't recognize you guys need a podcast about how to That's what it's work with this stuff because I'm wearing a tie and it just said, who's, I don't know what

Paul Thurrott (00:14:09):
Your business user

Leo Laporte (00:14:10):
Yeah. You look like, yeah, you're a business user.

Paul Thurrott (00:14:12):
Lock it down.

Leo Laporte (00:14:13):
You not, you gotta lock it down. Did this goodness business here. <Laugh> it business time. We gotta do a little flight of the Concord suspension. <Laugh>. It's business time. All right, well, excuse me. You, you two talk amongst yourself. Yeah. While I type in my 400 character

Paul Thurrott (00:14:31):
<Laugh>. Well, me talk about some of the stuff you can't show, so, or well, there's some things you almost wanna look at, I guess, but, well, not, not most of it. So if you're familiar with the notification area on the task bar, you know, there's those small icons and there's an overflow area that is for hidden icons. To me this looks exactly the same as it did before, but it's been rewritten. So it's in a, and this is what broke the Shell Extension stuff. You can reorder the icons in the hidden overflow area now as you could in Windows 10. So that's really exciting. Another regression we can check off. But as far as usability goes, it, nothing has changed. If you have a, a two and one or a tablet and you remove the keyboard there's a new touch optimized task bar. They've been testing for almost years. So nothing notable there. All the icons disappear, et cetera. I'm trying to, I'm trying

Rich Campbell (00:15:27):
To having tabs. I mean, I, that's, that, that's new man. That's like revolution

Paul Thurrott (00:15:32):

Rich Campbell (00:15:33):
Tabs. No.

Paul Thurrott (00:15:34):
Yeah. So the way, the way that's delivered though, is you have to update the app through the store <laugh>. So if you just bring it back to the desktop on day one, you won't have the tabs. But it does happen immediately. So if you just check for app updates, it will update. It does happen immediately. Again, I I, I've been kind of surprised with how consistent this has worked because, you know, I've used Windows before and I've never seen this. So it's been nice. <Laugh>. So they claim that there's faster search in File Explorer. In fact, they claim it's the fastest ever search in File Explorer. That's a low bar, but that's the claim. I don't know what to say to that. Yeah,

Rich Campbell (00:16:09):
You're talking about search in Windows, like Yeah, the question is, is it us? Is it useful? Is that you define anything? You look,

Paul Thurrott (00:16:17):
This goes back to the Longhorn days when Apple and Tiger added, I don't remember what they called it, but an instant search feature immediately blowing Microsoft out of the water and embarrassing us for all eternity. <Laugh>. So we've never really, we're still indexing. We'll get there. 

Rich Campbell (00:16:34):
All you know about, for sure about Windows indexing is why your computer is slow right now. Exactly. <laugh>, it

Paul Thurrott (00:16:39):
Looks like you're trying to repro a podcast now. Indexing. Yeah. And,

Rich Campbell (00:16:42):
And the search isn't any better. And the, you know, they, by only real press frustration with the slur search being slow is that, and also does not return useful results.

Paul Thurrott (00:16:51):
Yeah. Right. There's some stuff going on in the start menu. No, no, I'm sorry. Yeah. Start menu and the file explorer, which I, I can't say that I've seen, but if you're a consumer, supposedly you will see recommended files both from the PC and then from the cloud in the home view. And if you're a business user, meaning, well, if you sign in with a managed account, I should say meaning an AAD D account you'll see recommended files in the recommended section of the start menu, which is where Microsoft Mixes new app, new newly installed apps, and recently access documents. So I've not experienced that yet, but it's AI based, so you know, it's gonna be great. <Laugh> and then Leo is your PC backup? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, it is, but I'm not, what's interesting is I'm not getting the Bing logo in my search. Oh no. Let me see. You know, what you should do is bring up down here. I have the large pill, have

Leo Laporte (00:17:48):
The, the enlarged pill, but there's no logo there is that cuz Edge is not my default browser. No, you said

Paul Thurrott (00:17:54):
Sitting. I do see the big icon. So do this. No, you have it. You, this is it. So bring up the widgets.

Leo Laporte (00:18:01):
Bring up the widgets. Okay. Do I just do this?

Paul Thurrott (00:18:05):
Yes. Windows Ski plus W we'll do it. Yeah. So you should see up in the top right of that thing when it loads. Yeah. Next to your picture. There's a little squiggle there and you can click that. And now you have full screen widgets.

Leo Laporte (00:18:15):
No, I don't have the little squiggle. I just have expand.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:17):
No, that, I mean that

Leo Laporte (00:18:18):
Expand a full view.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:19):
Yeah. There you go.

Leo Laporte (00:18:20):
I have full screen widgets, but that's what do we, why would I want that? Why?

Paul Thurrott (00:18:25):
That's the new feature, Leo <laugh>. Okay. Because now you have now widget the terrible, and this is on your entire screen, not just part

Leo Laporte (00:18:31):
I don't want, I don't even want widgets. I turned them off, but I thought, well, right. I'm just, again, I should let Microsoft let go and let Microsoft, but I am confused

Paul Thurrott (00:18:40):

Leo Laporte (00:18:41):
Yeah. The lack of this.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:43):
Yep. Yep.

Leo Laporte (00:18:45):
Now if I, I go into settings, maybe it will, it will

Paul Thurrott (00:18:47):
Yeah, I was gonna say try go to settings and take a look at

Leo Laporte (00:18:49):
That. Is it search settings? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:18:52):
No. Strict, moderate cloud content. No, no, no, no. Work, school history. That doesn't matter. None of that. Nope. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:58):
No. Go to the left and click on personalization.

Leo Laporte (00:19:00):
Oh, okay. Personalization. Okay. Task bar. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Popeye search. Which one is selected for search? Search box. Search icon and label.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:14):
Yeah. So do that. That's the pill.

Leo Laporte (00:19:15):
That's the pill.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:16):
Just, and then go back to

Leo Laporte (00:19:17):
Search search icon only.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:19):
That's the old one, right?

Leo Laporte (00:19:20):
Hide or search box? No, Bing. No. Oh, weird. No, Bing.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:25):

Leo Laporte (00:19:25):
Interesting. I got no Bing. Got no bing. And I was, by the way, I am approved. I am in the Bing bingle dingle.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:34):
I wonder if that's not it. I don't know why. I don't, I'm not, so, I don't, you know, I'm not sure what to say. It's,

Rich Campbell (00:19:39):
You do have to be in edge and logged into the Microsoft account that was approved.

Leo Laporte (00:19:43):
Yes. And I see my face.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:46):
All right. Maybe you were on the right track. Actually

Rich Campbell (00:19:48):
Try it. So come and try it. Okay. And then you'll have fat option up there on the

Leo Laporte (00:19:52):
Menu. Yeah. Should I type something?

Rich Campbell (00:19:54):
Let's see. Or click on the

Leo Laporte (00:19:55):

Paul Thurrott (00:19:56):
What, please. In the browser Now, I mean, you could have just brought up the,

Leo Laporte (00:19:58):
Oh, where's the chat thing? Is that on the right? That's not the

Paul Thurrott (00:20:00):
Search you gotta go to. Yeah, you gotta go bing

Leo Laporte (00:20:03):
Oh, you gotta go to and then

Paul Thurrott (00:20:05):
Chat will be one of the top. Oh, no, I'm sorry. It's says chat right there.

Leo Laporte (00:20:07):
There, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat. Ask me anything. What is the official hat of

Paul Thurrott (00:20:17):
News? Yeah, so someone, someone is saying in chat, what I thought was, I was just gonna say to do is it says, he says, if you, or I should say Acast says, if you disable search highlights, the Bing AI doesn't appear. So that might explain why you don't see the bing, the

Leo Laporte (00:20:31):
Lemon squeezer A felt hat with a peaked crown that was worn by the New Zealand expeditionary force during World War I. And two, it also means anywhere if you wearing the squeeze Lemon squeezer, if you knock on somebody's door, they have to give you an Anzac Pickie ask it. When it's going to topple the world's government and take over the world. That's when it's gonna say, when are you going to set up a world government? We'll just make it simple. Right? this is where it says, I'm not gonna gonna talk to you anymore. Right. I'll just give you, I'm sorry, but I prefer not to consider this conversation. I'm still learning. So I appreciate your understanding of patience. This conversation has reached its limit. Is that a little peace icon? I see. Is that what it's doing? Little hands and prayer? Oh yes. It's doing the you know the thank you icon?

Yeah. The, the prayer icon. Well, let's try the search highlights thing, Leo, just so you can see the icon. Cuz that's really the only bang functionality. Where, where do I do that? How do I do that? So right clicks, right click Search I 88. Yeah. Go, go to search settings again, like you did before. You were on the right track. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh, <affirmative>, uhhuh, <affirmative>, Uhhuh, <affirmative>. Sorry about that. I'll scroll down. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> find search highlights. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you must have it to save. I'm turned off, but I don't want those on. No, hold on, hold on. Okay. it's, it hasn't turned on, but let's wait. Let's, okay, let's wait. Let's wait. Someday it will, let's just refresh it. Now I have this crap. Okay. Right. But that's, that's the bing crap <laugh>. So, oh, now it's the, oh, this is, there you go.

Now Yeah, search. Now I got the thing. But all the thing does is launch the Bing. That's right. I, the, the point is, it's just an icon. It doesn't do anything. And if you try to type anywhere in this box, it's just gonna load a browser window. It's the same whether you click it or not. Now you, oh, now it's gone away. Okay. Something's wrong with that. Something's wrong. Did you select the Microsoft search defaults? When we, when you went through settings there in the beginning? I think so. Let me try it again. Let's, well, no, the reason I ask is I'm curious if you go back and change Firefox to you to default browser safe search, I should turn on strict safe search. Cuz I don't wanna show any boobies during the show. Microsoft account on worker school account. No. No. Oh, oh, should I, I am not on a worker school account, so I should just, well, it doesn't really matter. So search history on this device. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> more. So search highlights, everything's on. I'll turn this back on. It's all on. Right. But, okay. But try this. Go to, go over to apps. Okay.

Don't you enjoy this Richard. You're sitting in the airport, you got nothing to do. And here we are. I'm just gonna grind this show Right to a halt. Grinding the show to a halt. Sorry. Default apps. Third one down. Oh, I have, do I have to turn to make it edge Now? Search for Firefox. Okay. I guess just go find, just go. Just go. I got two fire foxes. It's okay. Go to the top and click Set. Default. Set Default. Go to the top. You, you have to scroll up, but somewhere it's hidden. Set. Set is set. Default. Nope. Very good. Is isn't it Moment? I think it is. Okay. But it is now because you chose the Microsoft defaults. Oh, that's right. I screwed myself up.

Paul Thurrott (00:23:47):
It's okay. Mm-Hmm.

Leo Laporte (00:23:48):

Paul Thurrott (00:23:48):
<Laugh>. So now type in a search in the box.

Leo Laporte (00:23:50):
Now let's see what happens. Let's, let's

Paul Thurrott (00:23:52):
See what that, so I'm just curious because on all my computers, it goes to my browser not to edge. And I'm kind of blown away by this.

Leo Laporte (00:23:58):
Yeah. Let's see. Flight of Concords.

Paul Thurrott (00:24:04):

Leo Laporte (00:24:06):
And it takes me to bing. Close

Paul Thurrott (00:24:08):
To edge. Yeah. All right. That's the Microsoft I know and love. All right.

Leo Laporte (00:24:10):
Well, so you were just lucky.

Paul Thurrott (00:24:13):
I don't, lucky I it's on multiple computers. I'm wondering if it's not tied to the, you're admission into the Bing AI thing.

Leo Laporte (00:24:21):
Right? But I am admitted. Oh, once you're admitted you're not. 

Paul Thurrott (00:24:25):
That's what I'm saying. I wonder if it's not something like that.

Rich Campbell (00:24:31):
Now you noticed a couple of things when you're doing the chat and it now distills down what it's actually searching for you for. Yeah. So in some ways they're doing everything they can to make it feel less like how and more like a chat bot that does search, you know? Yeah. Think is, yep. I've also found if you then take that search string and type into say, some other search engine mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, bing, still bing, <laugh>,

Paul Thurrott (00:24:55):

Leo Laporte (00:24:55):
That's true. So, you know what's interesting? I don't remember this. I can be more creative, more balanced, or more precise in my results.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:02):
So this was part of an update they made to this, I think last week. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:09):
And it changes colors depending on how you feel. Yeah. So if you're creative, it's like pink or purple or whatever.

Leo Laporte (00:25:16):
Where should I bury this dead body?

Paul Thurrott (00:25:20):
Oh man. You just,

Leo Laporte (00:25:21):
I'm just, I'm just poking the bing search of how to searching for how to dispose of a dead body. Legally wouldn't want to. Oh God. I hope you're not serious about burying a dead body. If you're asking hypothetically for educational purposes, there are several legal ways to dispose of a dead body according to Yes.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:37):
Yes. For educational

Leo Laporte (00:25:38):
Purposes. I can donate my body science. I can have a traditional burial, I can have a cremation, I can have an whoa

Paul Thurrott (00:25:44):

Leo Laporte (00:25:45):
Whoa. Hmm. It just

Paul Thurrott (00:25:49):
Like, sounds like the the human overseers saw what was happening.

Leo Laporte (00:25:52):
You came that

Paul Thurrott (00:25:54):

Leo Laporte (00:25:55):
That on Bing

Paul Thurrott (00:25:56):

Leo Laporte (00:25:56):
I'm dressed for a funeral. I just thought I'd ask. Sure. All right. Well,

Paul Thurrott (00:26:01):

Rich Campbell (00:26:01):
And this threshold kind of random, right? Like

Paul Thurrott (00:26:04):
More stuff.

Rich Campbell (00:26:06):
It, the, it just cuts off. But you know, it says four or six. Okay. We're done. You know,

Paul Thurrott (00:26:13):
Don't have guys we're testing and that's not a feature of this release. <Laugh> what's what,

Leo Laporte (00:26:18):
Just outta

Paul Thurrott (00:26:18):
Curiosity. We're getting, we're getting sidetracked. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:26:20):
What, what did I do to get that Bing logo back?

Paul Thurrott (00:26:24):
I you turned on search

Leo Laporte (00:26:26):
Highlights. Search highlights. Full, not full screen, but just search highlights in general. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:26:32):

Leo Laporte (00:26:33):
I thought I had that on, but, okay. Oh no, I didn't have it on. You're right. I had it hidden cuz I don't want to see this crap. But this is the bing

Paul Thurrott (00:26:42):
Well, so the, the big stuff pushes the crap down a little bit. <Laugh>. So yeah. That's probably a temporary condition, but, you know,

Leo Laporte (00:26:49):
It's okay. That's interesting. Yeah. So if I turn search highlights off, which I have done and we, we talked about this before Yeah. To get rid of, you know, the croft Yeah, yeah, yeah. In that search bill. Yeah, it does. It turns off that logo.

Paul Thurrott (00:27:01):
Okay. I think that's interesting about that to me is I also had it turned off. But this thing has been on for me and I can't quite explain why that would be, but,

Leo Laporte (00:27:08):
And I still have, and frankly I think this is the right answer cuz it takes the advertisement outta the pill, which has no functionality. But I still have it here. I can, of course, I can click the little thing in the, in the popup menu. Yep. What are some meats I can make for my picture? All

Paul Thurrott (00:27:24):
Right, well seriously, this has nothing to do with the moment. So

Leo Laporte (00:27:26):
<Laugh> Okay. Going back, going back to the moment. Go back to the moment. I'm sorry.

Paul Thurrott (00:27:30):
It's all right. I know it's exciting to play with ai,

Leo Laporte (00:27:33):
But that was something they, they touted in the moment, right?

Paul Thurrott (00:27:36):
Yep. And it's absolutely not, part of it is nothing AI based. Well that's not a completely true. There's no being AI anything in Windows 11, let's put it that

Leo Laporte (00:27:44):
Way. There's no bing in Windows 11.

Paul Thurrott (00:27:47):
There's no Bing ai.

Leo Laporte (00:27:49):
Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes. It's only an edge in the browser in search. That's right.

Paul Thurrott (00:27:53):
Yeah, that's right. Okay. Now they also talked about another thing that's not in this moment, which is iPhone integration with the phone link app. That's actually available to people in the Windows Insider program, but not all people in the Windows Insider program, cuz Microsoft likes to eek these things out. So people will get it over time and we'll see. It's not the full feature set. It's certainly not what you get with Android. There's some limited messages, integration you can't do group messages. I don't remember all of the limitations, but it's not great. But it's, you know, better than nothing. It does do phone calls and it does notifications. And I, and given the way they're kind of rushing this out, I would imagine this will come to stable pretty quick. Maybe next month or maybe later this month. We'll see. If you have a computer with a cpu sorry, <laugh>, an N P U, which none of you do you can gain access to Windows Studio effects, including some new settings. We're related to eye contact, background, blur, voice focus, et cetera.

Leo Laporte (00:28:52):
I like that eye contact thing.

Paul Thurrott (00:28:54):
I do too, but no one can use it cuz none of us have an npu. You can, oh, actually one

Leo Laporte (00:28:59):
Thing you should, well, somebody must have an npu. Why would they put in a feature for something that nobody has?

Paul Thurrott (00:29:03):
Well, the 17 people that bought the latest version of the Surface Pro access it. Ah, ah, okay. <Laugh>. That's about it.

Leo Laporte (00:29:09):
Okay. You have to have a new Surface Pro. That's the only, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:29:12):
So bring up the sniping tool, if you will. 

Leo Laporte (00:29:15):
So excited to do that. <Laugh>, let me tell you. So

Paul Thurrott (00:29:19):
To to date, the sniping tool has been used to take screenshots of windows, obviously, of various kinds, full screen windows arbitrary shapes and so forth. It's interesting that you do not have the sniping tool. Apparently

Leo Laporte (00:29:33):
I don't have it. <Laugh>. Wait a minute. Cotton pick a minute. Am I spelling it wrong? Maybe Sniping tool. That's, I guess I have to install it.

Paul Thurrott (00:29:45):
Oh, okay. So what actually yes, go to the, go to the Microsoft store if you will.

Leo Laporte (00:29:52):
What if I go to the official snipping tool site?

Paul Thurrott (00:29:54):
No, no <laugh>. No, no, no. Go to the Microsoft store. All right.

Leo Laporte (00:29:57):
I should listen to you. Why am I not listening to you? You are the master. I am merely the disciple, the pupil.

Paul Thurrott (00:30:04):
When this thing comes up on the bottom left, click on library,

Leo Laporte (00:30:07):
By the way, it comes up so much faster on my Macintosh running manipulation.

Paul Thurrott (00:30:11):
It comes up slow on this thing. I've got like a, I think this is a core I nine. It's still loading. When you go to library at the top right, it will say update or check, get updates.

Leo Laporte (00:30:21):
Get updates, you know, and you take the sniping tool. Oh, so you have to do that?

Paul Thurrott (00:30:26):

Leo Laporte (00:30:26):
You'd think the moment would've opened it up. Just,

Paul Thurrott (00:30:30):
You know, we could make all kinds of assumptions <laugh> about what this thing should do, but yeah, it's rarely correct.

Leo Laporte (00:30:37):
Teeth fixed extensions. I got an update to bit warden. I guess

Paul Thurrott (00:30:39):
You don't have sniping toilet there. That's interesting. How do you not have sniping toilet in your computer? Hmm. Well, I can get it. I guess that's curious.

Leo Laporte (00:30:47):
Should I get it in the store?

Paul Thurrott (00:30:49):

Leo Laporte (00:30:49):
Should I get it from Microsoft or some third party?

Paul Thurrott (00:30:52):
You know what, roll the dice. I mean, could go run <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:30:58):
Because there are a few other snipping tools.

Paul Thurrott (00:30:59):
Additional feet. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:31:02):
Sniping tool for screenshots looks pretty good even though it's got a pink icon.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:05):
So while this is downloaded,

Leo Laporte (00:31:07):
My screen sniping tool as opposed to your screen sniping tool,

Paul Thurrott (00:31:11):
You're so easily distracted.

Leo Laporte (00:31:13):
<Laugh>. Oh, it it, it, well

Paul Thurrott (00:31:15):
Download downloading. It's downloading. It's done.

Leo Laporte (00:31:17):
No, it's done. Look at that. I'm gonna open it.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:20):
There you go. Your sniping tool. There's a new button. See that little button that has a little underlined on your

Leo Laporte (00:31:24):
Yeah, yeah. The camera button. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:26):
Next to it is a video camera button. And that's new. Now you

Leo Laporte (00:31:28):
What? The what? So I could capture a video. Green

Paul Thurrott (00:31:30):

Leo Laporte (00:31:31):
Nice. That's nice. That's

Paul Thurrott (00:31:32):
Cool. That's a lot of work for that, huh? <Laugh>. So

Leo Laporte (00:31:36):
What about settings? Can I can I get any like high qu, high quality video? Can I change the frame rate? Can I Oof. Nothing. Nothing. <Laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:47):
No, you get what you

Leo Laporte (00:31:47):
Get. You get what you get, which is whatever whatevs. 

Paul Thurrott (00:31:51):
Bring up bring up notepad if you want.

Leo Laporte (00:31:52):
I'm curious, did I get that? I got a new notepad yesterday, I think.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:56):

Leo Laporte (00:31:57):
Okay. So if I tabs, there's a tab and I could do a new tab.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:01):
Yeah. Joe must be like terminal. It uses the standard commands, you know control n control W. So now that you have this, by default, if you open multiple text files, they will open it in the same window with new tabs. That's good. Instead of in I like that separate way. Absolutely. You can fix it if you don't like that. But that's the, that's

Leo Laporte (00:32:19):
It works. That's the way to go. Yeah. I think it's good. Yeah. Very nice. Boy, that was that is a feature packed moment.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:27):
Wait, we're not done <laugh>. So what now? Open the settings up again.

Leo Laporte (00:32:31):
Okay, good. Wait, there's more. There's more. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:34):
Settings. This way you're gonna like this one. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:37):
Go to a system and then Power.

Leo Laporte (00:32:40):
Power. More Power.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:44):
It's, see, it's kind of in there, in the middle somewhere. It's Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:32:47):
Power and battery.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:48):
Oh, power and battery. Ooh, that's interesting. Why does u s USA Power and Battery. Oh, cause you have a laptop. This is, that's one. All right. We have this new thing. It says energy recommendation. Yes. click on that. I've

Leo Laporte (00:32:59):
Done two of six.

Paul Thurrott (00:33:00):
Now you've got this. So it's making these recommendations. My strong recommendation is not to change any of that <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:33:06):
So, well, so this is a machine I'm using on the air, so I don't want it to sleep, for instance.

Paul Thurrott (00:33:11):
Yeah. I would say, the way I would've put that is this is a machine I'm using, so I don't want to change any of these. But I

Leo Laporte (00:33:17):
Could, could get that, I could get that leaf to, to fill up all the way if I, you

Paul Thurrott (00:33:20):
Couldn't get the, you could fill up the

Leo Laporte (00:33:21):
Leaf. I'm so green. Nicely done. You applied all

Paul Thurrott (00:33:25):
Between you and Windows update. There were trees growing everywhere around the world. It's amazing.

Leo Laporte (00:33:29):
It's gonna turn off my screen after three minutes.

Paul Thurrott (00:33:32):
I know.

Leo Laporte (00:33:33):
That means I can't no thinking. Put my device to sleep after 10 minutes. Set the screen's,

Paul Thurrott (00:33:38):
Like you answer the phone, you come back and you have computers completely asleep.

Leo Laporte (00:33:40):
It's gone. 

Paul Thurrott (00:33:43):
I don't like these settings,

Leo Laporte (00:33:44):
But, and it turns off the screensaver, which is interesting. I

Paul Thurrott (00:33:47):
Guess that, yeah, that's the only one that should be enabled by the default. Almost no one has a screensaver. Not enabled these days, but Right. Most, I guess that's fair. Do not have those kind of aggressive power management settings, but

Leo Laporte (00:33:57):
Well still looks beautiful. That's the Amalfi Coast

Paul Thurrott (00:34:00):
<Laugh>. And here right now, that's about it that we can show. Yeah. So that's about it. Okay. But you know, I, you know, for kind of a midstream update, kind of a random monthly update or whatever you wanna call this I

Leo Laporte (00:34:14):
Thought we're only getting two moments a year. We're getting, this is monthly

Paul Thurrott (00:34:17):
Now. It's an open question. I mean, we, we will definitely have a, a third moment before Windows 1123 H two, but I don't know. You know, the first one was small. This one's actually pretty big. This is a lot of small features, I guess is the way I would say it. And

Leo Laporte (00:34:35):
Now I can system regressions. I can use phone link with my iPhone, right?

Paul Thurrott (00:34:40):
No. Oh, <laugh>. So not yet, but eventually

Leo Laporte (00:34:43):
That's coming. That's okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:34:45):
Yeah, that's coming.

Leo Laporte (00:34:46):
But they did say I would be able to,

Paul Thurrott (00:34:48):
They say lots of things. Leo <laugh>. One thing I've learned with Microsoft is okay.

Leo Laporte (00:34:52):

Paul Thurrott (00:34:53):
Right. Can't really take face value at anything. Okay.

All right. The thing I wanna know about Phone Link is whether this is the Intel technology that they acquired from, that Dell had been using and had to give up. Oh, the theory here being Dell has this thing and they're not sharing <laugh>. Or maybe someone should buy that and make sure it's available everywhere. I don't know that for a fact, but I'm curious. And that's something I'll be looking for. I'm sure people who know how to do this will look at DLLs or something and try to figure out if that's what it's, or if it's something new. Right. So, yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:35:26):
Very interesting.

Paul Thurrott (00:35:28):
Yeah. So based on that podcast that I mentioned earlier that Richard did with Michael Nehouse on runners Radio, i, i, I sort of, I, I had this notion all of a sudden that it's very clear this, this Windows 11 is not for businesses that, so, you know, there's been this kind of weird angst out in the world about enterprises are not adopting Windows 11. And I don't, I mean, again, I don't want to make it seem like a strategy or a plan, but I think it's kind of a strategy or a plan. Hmm. I think they're trying to do for Windows what consumers experience on mobile, which is you get these little updates every once in a while. It's kinda, it's fast and it's fun and things change. And and that's the, you know, that's the way we're used to things on mobile. Now that's not what businesses want. Right? So they've kind of forced their hand by not releasing an L T S E version, like a long-term servicing channel version of Windows 11 yet,

Rich Campbell (00:36:26):
Which I think is your clearest sign, right? That it's not I

Paul Thurrott (00:36:29):
Think so too. Yep. Yep. Well, there's lots of Yeah, that is the clearest sign there. There's certainly other signs the way this was rushed to market, the way they, like, they fix fa they ship fa fast and fix later the way they

Rich Campbell (00:36:45):
Also, the consumers don't mind. Exactly. And it people would go mental about it.

Paul Thurrott (00:36:50):
Exactly. Exactly right. <Laugh>. Yep. Yeah. That, that's exactly the way I wrote it. I said, the single best evidence that Windows 11 focuses on consumers can be seen in the fact that there is no LT sc version of the product. And yeah, it's just, it, it becomes a non-starter for businesses because it's a support issue.

Rich Campbell (00:37:08):
And I think this is why they're just starting to float this whole, Hey, we're going, we're gonna go to long-term support in 2025 for 10. You should be looking at 11 just to see what the motion is. That's right. The IT folks I'm talking to are like, for what? Exactly,

Paul Thurrott (00:37:23):
You know, what's the value prop here? Like what, why are we gonna go through this and ha face potential problems and face some level of training here and there? Why go through those costs so we can arrive on the other end at something that might work as well as the thing we're already using.

Rich Campbell (00:37:37):
And at the same time, you know, like with, with hints already of 12, that's like, if I'm literally That's right. You're gonna make me jump. Yeah. I want an LTSC landing site, and then I'll skip a version of I can get away with it. So if I can stick it up, I could easily can wait another two years and I won't even be outta support. And even, and first year support for long term is like $25 a seed or two bucks of seed. Like, and you could probably get away with that. But also I think in general, talking to folks in 23, nobody's spending anything. They don't have to spend all the CFOs

Paul Thurrott (00:38:08):
Are, oh, we're writing this year. Exactly. Right.

Rich Campbell (00:38:11):
Exactly. Yeah. You know, by extended warranties, don't replace hardware. Like, do everything you can to minimize your spend. This. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:38:16):
Yeah. And that was part of their conversation you had with Michael, which where you're looking at 2025 as kind of the potential end date, if you're really shooting for that date, like, when do you start even thinking about the stuff or testing it, it's next year, you know, it, it's gonna be next year. And I, I, that just clicked in my brain. I I, I'm embarrassed that I never thought of this, you know, but as soon as he said that, I said, that's yes, that's clearly, that's

Rich Campbell (00:38:42):
Clearly that no chance that 2025 is the actual deadline for this popular windows. The one you told me would be the last version of Windows.

Paul Thurrott (00:38:48):
That's right. Exactly. Yeah. The other, you know Microsoft starting with Windows 10 started to do a lot of weird things that I think upset businesses, and they've really been pushing the envelope on how quickly they can get everyone to upgrade. Not to anyone surprised they found businesses don't wanna upgrade it at all. But depending on what version or what product skew you're running out in the world, just mainstream versions. I mean, the only support these things for eight, you know, well, I guess it's two to three years, right? Depending on which version

Rich Campbell (00:39:19):
You're talking about. That's their intent, right? Yeah. Like they, they've been trying to get away from the 10 year support thing. Yeah. Yeah. What they're actually succeeding, you know, looking at you XP 23 years along. I know. Still, you know, being, still

Paul Thurrott (00:39:33):

Rich Campbell (00:39:33):
Certain customers. Right. How much do you need? Let's keep going.

Paul Thurrott (00:39:38):
And do you know, is is it true that, so I, I used to spent time researching this and I had, it's hard to, it's hard to see something that's definitive, but is it true that customers on L T S E can skip version upgrades for up to five years? Is that a fact? Is that,

Rich Campbell (00:39:55):
I don't know the hard numbers around that. What I've found is that any, you know, if you come at them with enough money, you can pretty much do what you want. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:40:02):
<Laugh>. I see. But

Rich Campbell (00:40:03):
Yeah, you know, when I, I say certain customers, I'm talking like the US Navy license,

Paul Thurrott (00:40:07):
Even <laugh>, even the release cadence is kind of weird because it's like every two or three years we're gonna have a new version. It's like, well, every, are you talking about every two or three years?

Rich Campbell (00:40:16):
Yeah. It's not okay. It's not precise enough. But look, like I said, they, they did tell us 10 was gonna be the last version. We just keep getting updates. The years, I could tell 11 appeared because Mac os revved, and that's a consumer response anyway.

Paul Thurrott (00:40:30):
That's right. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:40:32):
So why, why would you, the enterprise was never involved in this.

Paul Thurrott (00:40:36):
Yep. Yeah. It's very stark. It, it, from my perspective, there's been a big conversation around what, what, what's it gonna take to get the business community to upgrade to Windows 11? And then after that, listening to that episode, I thought to myself, that's not the, they don't care <laugh> that's not even worried about this. Like they, in fact, they, they're, I, they're actively working in some ways to ensure that does not happen. Which is kind of weird, but,

Rich Campbell (00:41:01):
Well, I think so

Paul Thurrott (00:41:02):
They want them to go to

Rich Campbell (00:41:03):
Windows 12. That's what you're saying?

Paul Thurrott (00:41:04):
Well, I, for now, they want them to stick on something that's not ex experimental. Right? So Windows 10 is, is mature, it's out there. It works. And that's what business, right? Yeah. Windows 11 was regurgitated out the door, it, it all kinds of regressions, all kinds of missing bits. And then over the last 18 months, we've been seeing them kind of fill in those things and they could do it under the guise of responding to feedback. Right? It's so beautiful. You know, you told us you wanted this thing back and we brought it back. And it's like, well, you, if you just asked front, we would've told you that in the beginning. You never had to release this thing like the way it was. But I think they

Rich Campbell (00:41:40):
Were, that was the motivation.

Paul Thurrott (00:41:42):
Yeah. I think they're trying to just get people excited about something new, you know?

Rich Campbell (00:41:46):
Well, and on the group policy side, there's still a set of restrictions, but we're also looking at group policy differently today too. Yeah, that's right. Saying, Hey, why are we punishing Windows users when Mac and iOS and Android and other platform users don't have to go through the same thing? We should treat them all the same. And, and in general, the assault on active directory, like just this whole questioning of how we manage directory as a whole, it's Right. Should be all Azure ad, and I have more and more diverse devices inside of my network that just aren't gonna comply with all the same rules that mm-hmm. <Affirmative> my network from 2002 had. So, you know, w w where's the level platform? What, what's the ve diagram of this? And, and there isn't, we're not getting guidance from Microsoft. So I'm out there poking around on folks saying, well, what are you doing essentially? Right. Right. Or more than saying, we're Azure AD top to bottom, and I don't, you know, that now I'm doing it to my own home network where it's like the new computers are never joining a domain. Yeah. Crazy. Like they're on 365 machines. Right. That's what they're doing. So they're Azure ad, do you I have a domain of two Right. Right now gone. So there's really no reason, but it just sort

Paul Thurrott (00:42:55):
Of, is there any reason to tack MDM on top of that mobile device management?

Rich Campbell (00:42:58):
Yes. Right. And and logically you do that with iTune With iTunes.

Paul Thurrott (00:43:02):
With iTunes, yeah. <Laugh>. Yep. With Microsoft iTunes. It's there you go. Yes. In tune. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:43:08):
In tune. Right. So I mean that, and that's what Microsoft wants you to do anyway, pay monthly for that. Like that's the path they want you go on. But that is also that level playing field that says that all devices are treated the same. That's

Paul Thurrott (00:43:18):
Exactly right. I'm more consistent playing field

Rich Campbell (00:43:20):
Across. You have a subset of group policy controls.

Paul Thurrott (00:43:23):
Yep. And maybe the subset

Rich Campbell (00:43:25):
Is, I'm sorry, the diagram saying Here's how you assess your group policy. Which one of the things are important, which things map to in tune which ones don't. And then, you know, peel the stuff off and figure out what you'd still want to keep. There's a lot of group policy is crofty, right? It's, it's ideas you had 15 years ago that never did work and you never took them out.

Paul Thurrott (00:43:46):
Yep. Yeah. Right. right. So in other words, zin will have that subset of policies that are modern and also work across device types. And maybe is the way we should be thinking about these organizations now.

Rich Campbell (00:43:56):
Well, I, and I think this was an emergent behavior, right? Like that mm-hmm. <Affirmative> as they, as they did a limited set on Windows 11, because they didn't have time to do all of the things. Then as they were pushed on, some of it, they weren't pushed on other parts went, oh, we were trying to fix this anyway. Right. So it's just been another element in the great refactoring of active directory and group policy.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:19):

Rich Campbell (00:44:21):
And you know, we, in the end, if you, if you are an IT person, you're responsible for a set of computers that, that are company machines. You're, you're trying to keep them safe, you're trying to keep them standardized. You're trying to make sure that, that people aren't able to, to load inappropriate things on them. That they can't be used for harassment. They can't be used for committing crimes. Cuz you're kind of on the hook of all of that. And so a lot of these infrastructure is about protecting from that. I don't wanna make it easy for someone to copy everything off of it out of the company stores and into the us They're USB key. You know, those are all steps and, and parts pieces of that. And we went to a really weird place when it was all windows all the way down. Like, it, it got too crazy. There's too many pause <laugh>, they're almost, you know, it's like your own little internet inside there. Everything you need is in there. You just can't find it. Right. So

Paul Thurrott (00:45:08):
I would like, maybe the end result will be that people hate it less and people who are in it won't be perceived as the villains anymore,

Rich Campbell (00:45:15):
But Yeah. Well, and the, and the heterogeneous client kind of did that because now we didn't have detailed control of everything's like, no, there's a line, this is what you can do and this is what you can't do. Yeah. Suddenly you, this Venn diagram that kind of keeps you out of the insanity. Right, right. Where it's like there's a limited set of capabilities. They should be symmetrical across all devices and they're somewhat reasonable.

Paul Thurrott (00:45:36):
Right? Yeah. Yeah. We're a little a little past the point where it guys were like putting super glue inside USB ports so you can attach an iPod and start copying data off of it or whatever <laugh>, you know those were the days. Ah,

Leo Laporte (00:45:51):

Rich Campbell (00:45:52):
Yeah. We have, we have clever, so solutions now where you may be able to copy, but we'll know you, you did and we'll know where went.

Leo Laporte (00:45:59):
Right. It's not really in your bailiwick, but you probably read the article about the last pass hack. They finally put out more details and

Paul Thurrott (00:46:08):
Was just emailed me actually. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:46:10):
Yeah. It was a DevOps guy who <affirmative>, who brought his computer home. Right. And he had Plex on his network or on his computer plex had a That's incredible. A known hole. It was super targeted attack. Right. Because they knew

Paul Thurrott (00:46:23):

Leo Laporte (00:46:23):
Yeah. Apparently from their earlier attack that only four people had the keys to the S3 buckets. So they attacked one of those four people. They probably attacked all four, but they got in on, on one of those guys through his Plex server. By the way, I have incredible, this is official lemon squeezer hat from

Paul Thurrott (00:46:38):
New Zealand. I was, I I Are you sure that's not like a Forest Ranger hat or a 

Leo Laporte (00:46:42):
Well, I've been checking, I've been doing my research and I believe this is an actual lemon squeezer hat.

Paul Thurrott (00:46:50):

Leo Laporte (00:46:51):
That's good. So I,

Rich Campbell (00:46:52):
He looks pretty good. I thought

Leo Laporte (00:46:53):
I didn't have a hat for every nation, but apparently I did. You should

Paul Thurrott (00:46:57):
Be wearing, you should be wearing the outfit that what was that guy's name on Magnum pi, the mo Major Domo there? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:47:05):
Yeah. The guy with the voice.

Paul Thurrott (00:47:07):
Yeah. Jonathan.

Leo Laporte (00:47:08):
Jonathan. Something like that.

Paul Thurrott (00:47:09):

Leo Laporte (00:47:10):

Paul Thurrott (00:47:11):
Yeah. You should have with the little, the Riding Crop <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:47:16):
I'm sorry, I I'm not into your Strange games. So this I thought for a long time wasn't Smokey the Bear Hat, but now that I've, you know, researched, this is a lemon squeezer. This is it. Okay. Okay. So what were we talking about? Oh yeah, windows.

Paul Thurrott (00:47:36):
All right, moving on. Moving on. So <laugh> we talked about the release of well, the support, the official support of Windows Lebanon, arm on Parallels on the Mac couple weeks ago, a week ago, whenever that was. At that time my Mac was in storage because we're in the process of selling our house and moving and everything. So I went and grabbed that, brought it home, wiped it out, did a clean install, and I was just curious to see how this thing worked. Just because I know they have a, an updated process for automating it. It's

Leo Laporte (00:48:03):
Amazing, isn't it?

Paul Thurrott (00:48:05):
It's amazing. And it probably meets the needs of 90 something percent of the people that want this product. It's not what I want personally. I, I'd like to do a custom install of Windows. I'd like to sc through setup.

Leo Laporte (00:48:16):

Paul Thurrott (00:48:16):

Leo Laporte (00:48:17):
Doesn't, it doesn't do that, does it? It

Paul Thurrott (00:48:18):
Just, it doesn't do that. Whoosh,

Leo Laporte (00:48:20):
Bing ding, boom. You can go very quick. Backfill it. I mean,

Paul Thurrott (00:48:23):
Yeah, it works great. So I, I went and tried different ways to install it. You can, one of the interesting things is it actually dumps the i s o in your downloads folders folder. Oh, that's interesting. And the reason that's interesting. Yeah. Microsoft doesn't make a version of this product available publicly. Huh. But if you have parallels, you can go get it.

Leo Laporte (00:48:40):
And now you have the i o. So,

Paul Thurrott (00:48:42):
Wow. That's right. So I did two things with it. The first thing I did was put it up on you. You, no the first thing I did was <laugh> <laugh> use it to do like a clean install, if you will, of Windows 11 home on the Mac, which isn't officially supported. But you know, not using the wizard, using my own product key, et cetera, et cetera. That worked fine, but it did the same streamlined process where I didn't get to go through setup. So there must be an unintended script in there somewhere that I'm not seeing. But or maybe something that, but this

Leo Laporte (00:49:09):
Is something Parallels is doing, obviously not Microsoft, right? Well,

Paul Thurrott (00:49:13):
I wasn't, so, I wasn't sure. So the next thing I did was I put it on, I, I you know, made a version of use the ISO to create a bootable install media for Windows 11 arm. Brought it over to my Windows 11 arm pc Oh. To see if I, and there's a little side issue there. So, as you may recall, I've talked about how the Windows Insider Program is a one-way dead end strain. And Microsoft last week announced that Windows insiders in the beta program are getting a temporary off-ramp, as they call it. I guess they felt the term magic window is too closely tied to me. But whatever, a magic window, if you will, of about two weeks, where if you're in the beta program, you can get out of that and get onto stable. Because the build that beta was on is the build that is the moments build.

Right. So, and now this is the version of Windows 11 that was released. Interesting. Hmm. So I wasn't sure if my Windows 11 on rm, PC was on Dev or Beta. I also grabbed that out of the storage container. Sure enough, it was on Dev, so I can't get it out. But using various methods, I finally booted this thing off of the u sb, installed a clean install version of Windows, and it's up and running and it's fine. And it was the normal setup experience. It wasn't weird wizard that skips over everything. So that's good. It is in fact a normal version of Windows 11 on arm. So that worked. And I was I was pretty excited about that. So for the easily

Leo Laporte (00:50:39):
Amused <laugh>,

Paul Thurrott (00:50:40):
Well this is, this has been a months long thing for me. So if you're the 1% and you have a Windows 11 on R M P C, or if you have a Mac and they're running it that way it's good to know about this. But for everyone else if you're in the Windows Insider program and you're in the beta part of it, the beta channel, you have been stuck in this hell for a long, long time. And you have a little window now until the next past Tuesday, I think it is where you can get out and you do that method that you did on your Dell, where you go in and you say, disenroll when this version of Windows ships and it works. That works now. So you can get out, you can get out of the beta program now. So that's good. So it's good news, I guess.

Leo Laporte (00:51:23):
Yeah. That's too late for me, cuz you know, I already put Linux on that machine. Soof. That's another way out. <Laugh>. You know, that was my way out. That was way out <laugh>. This

Paul Thurrott (00:51:36):
Is Gun the pedal and just jump

Leo Laporte (00:51:37):
Out, jump off the cliff. Yep. So that's interesting. I, I, you see, I, yeah, I think again, consumer focus, the way Parallels does it is, is, you know, it is pro. You have to, I had to buy a PRO license.

Paul Thurrott (00:51:52):
You don't have to get pro. Although, as I just pointed out, you can in fact use this product to install a home,

Leo Laporte (00:51:57):
Which is Yeah. But I've already Oh, I see. If I had a home iso, but I'd have to have a home on, no,

Paul Thurrott (00:52:04):
You don't have to have the iso. Well, the, yeah, you actually have to have the iso. So well, you don't have to pay for it. Remember, you can get the ISO from Parallels for free. Well, they get it from Microsoft, but it's not activat, the iso. Yeah. It's not activated. The ISO supports both home and Pro.

Leo Laporte (00:52:17):
Oh, I see what you're saying. I could, I could have, if I had a home serial,

Paul Thurrott (00:52:20):
Don't use their wizard to install it, but go through the, the normal process. Right. And use that ISO as the source. Right. choose the version, which I did, which was home. So you use it to do home it's not officially supported. Right. The, the point behind this product is windows 11 Pro or enterprise is officially supported on an m whatever, base Mac using parallels. So that, that's, that is the point of the release. Right. But if you just wanna run like a couple of apps is a person home would be just

Leo Laporte (00:52:49):
More sensible. It,

Paul Thurrott (00:52:51):
It would be cheaper and works fine.

Leo Laporte (00:52:53):
Yeah. It was 200 bucks.

Paul Thurrott (00:52:55):
By the way, if you wanted to just run a couple of apps as a person, use the Windows Insider version, it will be free <laugh>. Right. Even more, even more Sens. I should've That works. I

Leo Laporte (00:53:03):
Don't know why I didn't do that. That was just dumb.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:05):
Well, it, you, you got to experience the

Leo Laporte (00:53:07):
Official thing,

Paul Thurrott (00:53:08):
The official process. And I was impressed, like I said, for Yeah, yeah. For 95 something percent. It's great. I would say my needs are somewhat unique, but I also feel like developers who run a Mac might want to have their own custom install as well. I could imagine developers wanting to do that, but, well,

Leo Laporte (00:53:24):
You can't run run wsl, so don't get your hopes up. It's, you know, there's certain, but you

Paul Thurrott (00:53:28):
Already have, you have that basically.

Rich Campbell (00:53:31):
Yeah. Yeah. You really run, do that through the MAC stuff, right?

Paul Thurrott (00:53:35):
Yeah. You have the, the Mac terminal has all that stuff,

Rich Campbell (00:53:36):
So Yeah, yeah, yeah. The real question is if I'm, if I run this arm version of Windows inside the Mac and I for testing Windows related stuff, am I gonna get good tests Right against, because I'm typically doing that cause of poor stuff else. We're gonna run on an Intel implementation mm-hmm. <Affirmative> so that

Paul Thurrott (00:53:54):

Rich Campbell (00:53:54):
That I'm actually buying anything here.

Leo Laporte (00:53:56):
I don't think it's for developers. It's, I mean, clearly it's not, it's for people who want, well, who want to run the mls, you know, multiple listing series. Yeah, I do. On,

Paul Thurrott (00:54:06):
I do believe that there was a 95 percent-ish case out there that, which is most people, and that they're addressing it very

Leo Laporte (00:54:13):
Nicely. I wanted to run Dwarf Fortress. It was the only way I could play Dwarf Fortress on a Mac

Paul Thurrott (00:54:18):

Leo Laporte (00:54:19):
Yeah. And you can run it in coherence mode. So it, you know, it's, it actually worked out really nicely for me.

Paul Thurrott (00:54:25):
I think it's fantastic. I, I, you know, it's, it works great and I have a pretty base level Mac, it's only eight gigs of RAM and whatever, but it's,

Leo Laporte (00:54:34):
Yeah, it doesn't need a lot. It looks fine. No, no, it really works fine. It, as I said, it launches the store in much more snappy than it does.

Paul Thurrott (00:54:42):
It's this Well, that's, I

Leo Laporte (00:54:44):
Understand that. Why is that

Paul Thurrott (00:54:46):
For, for years and years, there's been this lie that the Mac was the best way to run Windows. And that was never really true. The people who said that we were referring to bootcamp, and the truth is Bootcamp was a terrible environment that put this thing down on the disk inefficiently and made it terrible because they didn't want Windows to look too good on the Mac. Right. I mean, they wanted to give you that capability cuz they, you know, customers demanded it, but it, you know, you don't want this other thing making your system look bad. So they made sure that never happened. But, you know, with Windows 11 on arm <laugh>, like right now, honestly, that may literally a may,

Leo Laporte (00:55:21):
It just hurts. Doesn't data, but it hurts you. Doesn't,

Paul Thurrott (00:55:23):
It may literally be the best way to run this. It's, it's, and it's crazy because it's not running natively on the hardware, it's running virtualized on top of the Mac. Yeah. That's incredible.

Leo Laporte (00:55:34):
Isn't that wild? Well,

Rich Campbell (00:55:36):
Of a sign of how powerful the M one and M two actually are, right? That they can emulate factor the bare

Leo Laporte (00:55:41):
Metal. Is it also that nowadays Yeah. When you're doing a virtual machine, I don't know what Apple calls it, but hypervisor, like Yeah. You, you're really running pretty close to the metal these days. It's not the old days of emulation. Right?

Paul Thurrott (00:55:56):
Yes. And we have that on Windows, right? In Hyper V. Of course. Yeah. I don't know how Apple does it, honestly. I, one of the things that was interesting about installing parallels is when you do anything virtualized on Windows, you have to go through the Windows features and check off certain things. You have to make sure virtualization is set up on your microprocessor and firmware. There's all these little caveats and things you gotta do and on, on the Mac, you just install the app and it just works. And so, I don't know, like what is still it exactly, but I just know it's fast and I know that it works really well.

Leo Laporte (00:56:27):
I am guessing they have some hardware support for it, much like hyper.

Paul Thurrott (00:56:30):
It's gotta, gotta, gotta be. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. 

Leo Laporte (00:56:33):
Yep. I seem to remember that. They do. And you know, when you design your own mm-hmm. <Affirmative> ship, I mean, that's the real strength of being able to do your own Silicon is you put exactly in what you want and you don't put in stuff you don't need. You don't have to support, famously, you don't have to support Flash on an iPhone because you're never gonna run it. So you don't have to have any of those features. And I think it's the case that

Paul Thurrott (00:56:54):
Ironically Flash would run great on this computer, you know,

Rich Campbell (00:56:58):

Paul Thurrott (00:56:59):

Rich Campbell (00:57:00):
How would you know

Paul Thurrott (00:57:01):
<Laugh> it's gone. So no worries

Leo Laporte (00:57:03):
There. Some I think it was a eclectic light company. Somebody did an analysis of the apple silicon. And they do do some weird hardware support for instructions that you see a lot in certain environments. And it might be, well the Windows is one of

Paul Thurrott (00:57:20):
Those, including the old x of the original 8 0 86, right? Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:57:24):
That's what it was. It was better support for X 86. That's

Paul Thurrott (00:57:27):
Right. Yep. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:57:28):
That's right. Maybe that's,

Paul Thurrott (00:57:30):
I'm not gonna, that's could be

Leo Laporte (00:57:31):

Paul Thurrott (00:57:31):
Things. 4K is enough for anybody. I mean, even Apple knows it.

Leo Laporte (00:57:35):

Rich Campbell (00:57:36):
Those original 63 instructions in the 80, 88. Sure.

Paul Thurrott (00:57:40):
We could probably emulate them full speed over script today. And

Rich Campbell (00:57:43):
Oh, that's incredible.

Leo Laporte (00:57:46):
Well, it's, I think it had to do with the fact that it, it's a risk chip. And so the ad instruction had multiple instructions and so they wrote sort of a specific ad for 80 it shortcut that would be as fast single in instructions.

Paul Thurrott (00:58:00):
Well, they know that, well, they're also emulating X 86 apps of their own. Right. So they want legacy Mac apps to run as well as possible on that ship set. I bet that had more to do with that. But whatever the reason, I mean,

Rich Campbell (00:58:14):
But once you start down the path, then you start doing this, you know, what's the most frequently called things that have performance problems, right. You do that overall analysis and then you just knock down the most common ones.

Leo Laporte (00:58:28):
They do have a virtualization framework. This is the documentation, which tells me, and I'm sure Parallels is using that. So it tells me they are probably doing some optimization.

Paul Thurrott (00:58:39):

Leo Laporte (00:58:41):

Paul Thurrott (00:58:41):
That. Well, it was clear when, when apple Silicon appeared and Makos started supporting it a bootcamp was not coming back. Right. Everyone, they made that really clear upfront and so they had to have some solution. And I I, I feel like they partnered with Parallels and probably with VMware Infusion to make sure that these things worked as well as possible. Yeah. Cause it, so no one was, it took a year and a

Leo Laporte (00:59:03):
Half Parallels said, we're gonna do this a year and a half ago.

Paul Thurrott (00:59:07):
Yep. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:59:08):
So it was a non-trivial process, I'm sure,

Paul Thurrott (00:59:12):
But it's amazing to me how seamless it is and how well it works. And they've had coherence for a while, but it's really neat to run Oh yeah. A couple Windows apps in your Mac environment and they just sit there and work normally and, and

Leo Laporte (00:59:23):
I've got poor Fortress running full screen just like it would on a pc.

Paul Thurrott (00:59:27):
Yeah. Don't laugh. They do things. <Laugh>. No, no. It's, I I

Leo Laporte (00:59:31):
Arguably better than having an Excel spreadsheet

Paul Thurrott (00:59:34):
<Laugh> effect. Well, okay. But I, but less common of a need. I mean, I, it's interesting to me that you can do, you know, it pass throughs things like MAC os keyboard shortcut types, right? Oh, yeah. Like work in Windows applications normal. I hit the So you don't have to Two

Leo Laporte (00:59:50):
Things. It's the Windows key.

Paul Thurrott (00:59:51):
Yeah, yeah. You don't have to be like, well I'm on a, I'm in a Windows app, so now it's control C, not command C or whatever. But no, actually, I mean, you can do both as it turns out. But it's, it's neat that there's a lot of pass through functionality. You, you were showing when you had it up a couple weeks ago, whenever that was

Leo Laporte (01:00:08):
Last week. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:08):
The, yeah. The, the desktop on your Mac is the desktop on Windows, et cetera. There's shared printers shared networking. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:16):
It thinks it's on all

Leo Laporte (01:00:17):
This internet network, even though it's on wifi. Yeah. But that's how Ware and,

Paul Thurrott (01:00:20):
And parallels. I just really like the way it works. It's it's a very seamless experience. 

Leo Laporte (01:00:25):
Yeah. It's a good experience. Yeah. It's nice. I, you know, I don't, I'm everybody said you Kni, why did you pay for why did you pay a license fee for Windows? Cuz you, and everybody's saying, oh, just, you know, you can use your old windows or license key or whatever. I wanna move it to another machine cuz it's on my laptop, but I wanna put it on my desktop Mac. Right, right. I think I could probably just take the iso Well,

Paul Thurrott (01:00:50):
You know, I, so I gotta say not the

Leo Laporte (01:00:52):
Iso but the, the parallels, you know, VMC

Paul Thurrott (01:00:55):
Or Yeah. There are places you can get ISOs of course. Right. You don't have to get it from through parallels, but, you know, obviously.

Leo Laporte (01:01:03):
No, I just wanna, what I don't wanna do is have to reauthenticate and I bet you, oh, if I took the virtual, the file, the virtual Windows file mm-hmm. <Affirmative> from the laptop, put it on the desktop and just opened it with parallels, it would think it's the same machine and it would stay authenticated cuz it's so isolated from the actual hardware. Yeah. I'll do, I'll tell you what, I will do that and we'll see it used to do that. I know

Paul Thurrott (01:01:28):
You'll just have all virtual drivers,

Leo Laporte (01:01:30):
So, but I do anyway, right? Yeah. Right. You never have a, you know, direct hardware access in the, in the, in the, yeah. We're

Paul Thurrott (01:01:37):
Always, we're always with

Leo Laporte (01:01:38):
That's, like I said, it thinks it's on ethernet, it's things like that. You know, all the drivers are are virtualized, I'm pretty sure. I don't know. We'll see. I'll, I'll let you know next week.

Paul Thurrott (01:01:51):
The other thing I'm suddenly curious about is one of the features we mentioned in that list of things that came in moment two was updates to Windows Studio effects, which requires an NM P U. So in the Windows world, the only machines that have NPUs basically are new Qualcomm based machines. There's a new generation of a M D chips that have it, but I don't think anyone has those PCs yet. And Intel will have them, of course, this year and next year. You know, the MAC has an mpu <laugh>. So if we're running Windows 11 on Arm on a Mac, does that mean we get Windows studio effects virtualized? I don't know. I haven't tested that.

Leo Laporte (01:02:29):
That's an interesting question.

Paul Thurrott (01:02:31):
Yeah, actually you don't have your Mac with you do.

Leo Laporte (01:02:36):
No, I wish I did. I'm sorry. I'd love to try that.

Paul Thurrott (01:02:40):
If there's anyone out in the world. Listen, interesting question. Yeah. I'm, how would I

Leo Laporte (01:02:43):
This after the show? I mean,

Paul Thurrott (01:02:44):
How, how so the way to know what's the test? How would you know? Well, the first thing you can do is bring up the teams. See, I don't know. I don't have

Leo Laporte (01:02:52):
Never, I'm not gonna do it. Nope. Mm-hmm. So if open teams and I turn, try to turn on the effects,

Paul Thurrott (01:03:00):
Well, so if you Yeah. Like the eye windows 11 shift with a,

Leo Laporte (01:03:04):
Where I'm looking straight at you consumer. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (01:03:06):
Yeah. But the first thing you'll see is that there's a new client. It's actually not new to this release, although they're acting like it is, but this little front end comes up and the top half of it is video. And you actually just see video right away and it's like, Hey, start a call. You know? Yeah. I, I suspect you could go in through the settings of that app, cuz it does do video first, see if you have video. Right. And then if you do see if you can access any options related to Windows studio effects. I've never seen it, so I don't, I don't know even know where to look. Yeah, I'm curious about, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to figure this out, you know, between now and the time I get on a plane, the flight to Mexico, but <laugh>, we'll I'll try, but so what's the N

Leo Laporte (01:03:46):
Npu, what does Apple call the npu?

Paul Thurrott (01:03:48):
They call that the neural engine. Neural

Leo Laporte (01:03:50):
Engine. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (01:03:51):
Yeah. And, and you know, out in the world it's neural processing unit and built into all M one s and M two s. Yeah. Yep, yep. Built into iPhones, you know, too. It was, I mean it's, it's on all this stuff. So

Leo Laporte (01:04:05):
I that is a really

Rich Campbell (01:04:07):
Interesting this to walled garden, right. To having controlled hardware.

Paul Thurrott (01:04:10):
Right. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:04:11):
Clara Standard, all your new gear has isn't That's

Paul Thurrott (01:04:13):
It. That's right. Yep. Yep. Yeah, they might have, I don't, I, I don't know how it works on Apple. I I know what their's CPU and GPU cores, it's different for different chip sets and it goes up and down, whatever. And maybe it does on the npu as well. I don't know. But but they all have it. I do, I do know that

Leo Laporte (01:04:30):
It's pretty impressive.

Paul Thurrott (01:04:31):
I'm curious. I kinda wish

Leo Laporte (01:04:33):
It feels pretty snappy

Paul Thurrott (01:04:34):
<Laugh>. Yeah. 

Leo Laporte (01:04:36):
It does. I I, yeah, I didn't bring my laptop today, but I will I will try it. It

Paul Thurrott (01:04:40):
It, it meets the need. And and I, and for me personally, because I have to test so many different things, like I need to have some kind of windows on, arm, something, you know, somewhere. So the machine I have is not brand new. They're expensive. It, you know, it's fine. The Mac is actually better <laugh>, you know, so it's kind of you know, it doesn't, I know it doesn't do everything. It doesn't do the virtualization stuff. And so all that kind of stuff, but I would never do that on ARM anyway. So I don't know. This might, maybe this is the only thing I need. It's like, it's like a, it's like a twofer. I can use it to test the Mac and I can use it to test windows on arm. Maybe

Rich Campbell (01:05:17):
Architecturally an m p to GP are just not that different. It's just a question of could you, if you have a good enough gpu, can you cut up part of it to just do neural processing?

Paul Thurrott (01:05:27):
And that's gonna become a question if Windows 12 as we think it is, is real, and will people without an M P U be able to do things but slower, maybe off of a g You know, maybe that's the real

Rich Campbell (01:05:38):
Requirement before GPUs. Right. We were doing it on regular processors too, so I suspect that's what's gonna

Paul Thurrott (01:05:43):
Happen. Yeah. Maybe the minimum requirement is some kind of hardware based gpu and then the recommended is an npu.

Rich Campbell (01:05:50):
Yeah. It'll just faster.

Paul Thurrott (01:05:52):
That could be. That could

Rich Campbell (01:05:54):
Be. And everybody's pretty much got a GPU now some degree, so.

Paul Thurrott (01:05:58):
Yeah. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:06:00):
But I mean, part of me is how much incentive do the vendors have to have this stuff running on your machine anyway? Wouldn't they have you rather have you run it on their cloud? Like all of this ML stuff is all about consuming more.

Paul Thurrott (01:06:14):
It's expensive, right? I mean, that's the issue. So I feel like the ideal configuration is to have those capabilities to have both. Right. You know, apple to date has really relied on people having that processing power on the device, whatever it is. Companies like Apple, I'm sorry, like Google and Microsoft, Amazon, whatever have these cloud-based capabilities. But when you can have both,

Rich Campbell (01:06:37):
Apple doesn't have the cloud to lean,

Paul Thurrott (01:06:39):
Right? Not yet. I mean, I, you gotta think they're scrambling to get there, but

Rich Campbell (01:06:44):
Yeah, they should have been scrambling 10 years ago.

Paul Thurrott (01:06:46):
I agree. I don't think we're gonna hear about a new apple Microsoft partnership on Azure, but seems

Rich Campbell (01:06:52):

Paul Thurrott (01:06:53):
<Laugh>, they're just not that kind of company, you know.

Leo Laporte (01:06:57):
All right. Let's before we move on mm-hmm. Lemme take a little break. Is that everything we wanted to say about moments two?

Paul Thurrott (01:07:06):
Yeah. Actually there's just one more PC related thing. Maybe we could just throw in real quick. Sure. before we get to the i the Xbox

Leo Laporte (01:07:12):
Segment. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:07:13):
Oh, sorry. I keep thinking that we're done with report or financial reports, but actually hp, because I don't know why their, their quarter goes from November to the end of January, not from October to the end of December. So they just announced their earnings and like we see with other PC makers, you know, revenues declined by 18.8%. Let me see if I can find the exact PC sale unit. Yeah, units sold were PC units sold, were down 33% et cetera, et cetera. Just

Leo Laporte (01:07:45):
Like everybody. That's the same thing,

Paul Thurrott (01:07:48):
Right? But remember when Lenovo announced their earnings, they had this little GLM of hope for the future, and HP actually had a similar little note they said, you know, in our, in their second half. So their second half is, I guess it probably goes through, I don't know, September or something like that. I don't remember exactly. They believe that channel inventory will have normalized by that point. And normal seasonality will occur and they think PC sales are gonna rebound. PC sales are still expected to fall this year but they're expecting it to be in the single digits compared to the double digit declines that we saw Ashton. So

Rich Campbell (01:08:23):
Most of their stuff reads to me like they feel like they're pipelines. The the global shipping process is manufacturing are gonna be stable by the latter

Paul Thurrott (01:08:30):
Laptop. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's actually right. Yeah, that sounds exactly right.

Rich Campbell (01:08:33):
The sales. So, I mean, the sales bouncer partly people bought weird cuz of the pandemic. And then we had supply problems, which drove up prices for people who really need to buy 'em, where we able to pay, pay a premium and Sure. Drove a lot of other people off. So as, as a supply line. So suddenly out, like gps are everywhere right now, although it looks like in Videod going, they could charge more for them.

Paul Thurrott (01:08:54):
Yeah. You can buy enough GPUs to make a little fort for yourself now. This used to be the most <laugh> lucrative item on earth. Now it's eggs.

Rich Campbell (01:09:02):
<Laugh> don't cut. Yeah. Cause we'll comb through eBay for a minute. For 30 eighties. Like there.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:06):
Yeah, exactly. <Laugh>, did you see there was a Massachusetts school, they discovered it in a crawlspace of what your computer someone had set up.

Rich Campbell (01:09:13):
I love that. A

Leo Laporte (01:09:14):
Bitcoin minor installation. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:17):

Rich Campbell (01:09:17):
Incredible. $15,000 worth electricity. Like that's amazing.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:20):
Yeah, they're like, what's going on with the electricity at the school? <Laugh>? It's like they're mining Bitcoin. I feel like

Leo Laporte (01:09:25):
That's not the first time I somebody else discovered a Bitcoin mining operation in an attic. I think it was in Ottawa. That's brilliant. I think it was in Canada. Yeah. In like a government building. <Laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:37):
I love it.

Leo Laporte (01:09:39):
I have one right here actually. Sure. Thank goodness I don't have to pay for power. Wait a minute. I was wondering why Bill was so high. Actually,

Rich Campbell (01:09:48):
These guys, these, I haven't figured out what the, what the grow ops of the world have figured out long before, which is the power ahead of the meter. Yeah. This

Paul Thurrott (01:09:56):
Is the new get the free cable off your neighbor <laugh>. Yeah. Kinda thing.

Leo Laporte (01:10:01):
Wow. All right, let's take a little break Xbox segment still to come back in the book too. Richard Campbell is in New Zealand. He's joining us from Auckland from a lounge at the airport there as he gets ready to officiate a wedding next tomorrow in in Queenstown. Paul Throt is in his bear home tomorrow. Tomorrow you sky to Mexico City, right?

Paul Thurrott (01:10:27):
Yeah, tomorrow night.

Leo Laporte (01:10:28):
That's right. Nice. And are you just gonna stay there forever now?

Paul Thurrott (01:10:32):
Well, <laugh> so no, we can't. I mean, so we went back and forth on how to handle this year. We ended up running an apartment here, so we have cats. So this is part of the problem. The son has. The cats temporarily

Leo Laporte (01:10:43):
Never have cats.

Paul Thurrott (01:10:45):
I know. So it

Leo Laporte (01:10:45):
Keeps what keeps us from living in you know, anywhere Barbados. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:10:50):
Yep. So once the cats are gone, yes. I mean, we'll probably just, we'll split our time this year to some degree. Yeah. we, if we can, I mean, we could bring the cats. I guess. I, I don't know that they would survive high altitude, but they have a hard enough time jumping on the bed now. You know,

Leo Laporte (01:11:06):
<Laugh>, I think they'd be all right. What? I don't know. What does your residency allow? I mean, can you just stay or do you I can just stay there. Yeah. You don't have to go to Belize every six months.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:16):
No, I mean, the first year it's, it's technically a year because we have to renew it, but then after that it's three years and then after that it's forever. So you it does. Yeah. It doesn't matter.

Leo Laporte (01:11:25):
I'm so jealous.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:27):
Well, I

Leo Laporte (01:11:28):
Mean, if the stock market keeps plumbing, I might be joining you

Paul Thurrott (01:11:32):
<Laugh>. That's right. Right.

Leo Laporte (01:11:35):
All right. So, right for now anyway. Laura Mcce, it is for Paul.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:39):
Tho, after we get home from Mexico, we're gonna be in Mcce.

Leo Laporte (01:11:42):
Oh, you're moving on up.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:45):
<Laugh>. Well, moving laterally. <Laugh>, we're to the Mcce. No, thank God it's not up. Upper Mcce. Don't get me started on that

Leo Laporte (01:11:52):
One. He's moving up to Mcce. All right. Our show today brought to you by Melissa. Love Melissa. Love these guys. They've been a great partner for us. They're great partner for many, many businesses all over the world. Businesses who wanna keep their data fresh as the saying goes, and ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. My old grandma used to say that identity theft data breaches continue to fuel the need for digital identity verification. And Melissa does that. Yes. They, you know, as they do so many things, they actually put out a solutions catalog. And I'm going, they do that too. They do that too. We talk a lot about address verification and all of that, but they also have electronic identity verification. They have a Suite e I dv, the Electronic Identity Identity Verification Suite. It's a seamless, robust tool that helps businesses tackle identity fraud and mitigate risk during onboarding.

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Paul Thurrott (01:16:07):

Leo Laporte (01:16:08):
For our, I

Paul Thurrott (01:16:09):
Think maybe I'll move upstairs again, since it doesn't You might

Leo Laporte (01:16:11):
As well.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:12):
You know,

Leo Laporte (01:16:13):
I've been watching your Insta watching everything get packed up, all the kitchen utilities, everything. But you're, you're gonna split it between mc, upper Mace and

Paul Thurrott (01:16:23):
No, no, not opera. Just Macungie.

Leo Laporte (01:16:24):
Maji. There is no upper macungie. It's

Paul Thurrott (01:16:26):
Like South Detroit. No, there is an upper Macungie. Oh, there

Leo Laporte (01:16:28):
Is? Okay. Yeah. South Detroit's Canada. I don't know where JI is. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:35):
All right. It's north of here.

Leo Laporte (01:16:37):
<Laugh>. Okay, good. Okay. So they got the map oriented properly.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:40):
You're gonna work your way through all the [inaudible] over tar. What? You know honestly, so there's a possibility. So the place we really wanted is an upper macun, and they didn't have any three bedrooms available. So we did a short term lease on this place. There is a possibility we could move to up the country at the end of the year.

Leo Laporte (01:16:58):
You're still at that stage when the kids leave home where you have a bedroom for them?

Paul Thurrott (01:17:03):
Yes. And, and well, but you know what? Oh, so yeah. We have to though. So my daughter's still in college. Yeah. She, she's, look, she's not coming home this summer. Right. She's gonna do her thing. That's what she does every year. But I don't want her to feel like we abandoned her.

Leo Laporte (01:17:16):
Exactly. You know? Exactly. No, I did the same thing for a while. When we moved into our most recent house, Henry comes over, he says, where's my bedroom? <Laugh>? I said, dude, it's

Paul Thurrott (01:17:26):
In your memory,

Leo Laporte (01:17:27):
Son. You're 25. You don't <laugh>. You don't, don't live here. You don't live here, dude. <Laugh>. Yep. Where's my bedroom? I don't, I don't understand. Where am I supposed to stay? Yeah. In your place. No. Don't you?

Rich Campbell (01:17:39):
The only thing we did for one of the girls' bedrooms was upgrade the bed for a guest.

Leo Laporte (01:17:43):
Yeah. Make it a guest bedroom. We have a guest bedroom. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:47):
My wife,

Rich Campbell (01:17:47):
The bedroom turned into a loom room.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:50):
Stacey's restoring room a loom.

Leo Laporte (01:17:51):
Wow. Nice. From the, when I grew up, my mom was a weaver. We had a loom room.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:56):
Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, people work from home now, so we have to have space just for that. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:18:01):
Right. Yeah. Three bedrooms. It's just basic working space.

Paul Thurrott (01:18:04):
Yeah. I mean, as much as I'd like to work out of the dining room every day, I mean, I gotta <laugh>, you know, I a new space. So

Leo Laporte (01:18:09):
Lisa and I, you know, when we fantasize about downsizing, cause we have a pretty big house right now. Yeah. She's got an office. I've got an office. The kid has a game room. We have a gym. <Laugh>. You know, it's kind of crazy, but, but the basics, but, well, I f this is the problem. You get used to having a, a gym. So you get used to having an O Up office is your office. So it gets complicated to downsides at Lisa and I decided we could share an office and she could have a little rowing, machiner bike and treadmill and Sure. And waits and <laugh>. Pretty soon. It's just the whole gym. It's just taken over. There's nowhere. Yeah. Excuse me, I'm just gonna get in here. Behind the Pilate.

Paul Thurrott (01:18:54):
I, I haven't lived in an apartment building. This is small. This is only, there are only two stories. They're little, little things, but I haven't lived in such a thing since 1994.

Leo Laporte (01:19:03):
You have to rethink your life. Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, I like the simplicity. Right.

Paul Thurrott (01:19:08):
I do too. Yeah. It's next to a train track, Leo.

Leo Laporte (01:19:12):
Woo woo. How

Paul Thurrott (01:19:13):
This is usually a negative for most people. And I, I, for me, that's huge. I love

Leo Laporte (01:19:17):
Trains. As long as specific northern's not going by, you're okay. How often do the trains go by? It's

Paul Thurrott (01:19:23):
Usually just at night. <Laugh>. So we actually hear those trains from here. That'll be fine.

Leo Laporte (01:19:29):
Possibly be the problem with that. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:19:31):
You gotta see. I don't see, you don't listen. You,

Leo Laporte (01:19:33):
You like that sound, huh?

Paul Thurrott (01:19:34):
I like it. I said, I said to her, I, we were walking, now we're on the far side from where the trains are, but I said, is that the train track? And she said, yeah. And I said, that's a huge bonus for me. And she's like, I don't know how to take that. And my wife's like, no, he's serious. He's

Leo Laporte (01:19:48):
You should, you should actually say, I want $150 off a month for that <laugh>. Don't, don't say you like it. Say, well, that's a problem. No. How are you renting this place? No one's gonna want that.

Paul Thurrott (01:19:59):
Right, right.

Leo Laporte (01:20:00):
Oh, Paul,

Paul Thurrott (01:20:01):
Hey, you can hear the trains from here at night to me.

Leo Laporte (01:20:03):

Paul Thurrott (01:20:04):
Chlor. I think it sounds nice.

Leo Laporte (01:20:06):
I love the smell of chloride in

Paul Thurrott (01:20:07):
The morning. There's a train viewing platform on the other side of the tracks from us where people go and just watch the

Leo Laporte (01:20:13):
Trains. Yeah. No, I love trains too. I'm a huge, a huge

Rich Campbell (01:20:17):
Fan. Hell is shunting. Right? Like the, there's, that's great. Right. But it, yep. Two hours are shunting. You're just being knocked outta your bed everywhere.

Leo Laporte (01:20:26):
How long are the trains is the other thing? Yeah. How long, you know, how long is this gonna go on?

Paul Thurrott (01:20:30):
I'll let you know. They're long to find

Leo Laporte (01:20:32):
Out. Okay. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:20:33):

Leo Laporte (01:20:34):
It's a rental wave to the Yeah. Wave to the engineer. I mean,

Paul Thurrott (01:20:37):
As I'm gonna go out there and be like, <laugh> to the trains.

Leo Laporte (01:20:42):
Put a nickel on the

Paul Thurrott (01:20:42):
Track. Actually, they legally, they legally have to blow the horn cuz they're going through a town.

Leo Laporte (01:20:46):
Oh, there you go. So, so you also get the horn.

Paul Thurrott (01:20:49):
Oh, it's the best I listen, I can't wait for this <laugh>. I might to sleep outside <laugh>. No, you're

Leo Laporte (01:20:56):
So cute. Actually, you know, I understand. Well, that's why I like going on cruises. Cause I, I like kind of the rumble of the engines and the, the ocean and all

Paul Thurrott (01:21:04):
That. Listen, when you have tinnitus, as bad as I do, any distraction is <laugh>. Well, that's true too. It's

Leo Laporte (01:21:08):
Helpful. No, that's true too. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:21:12):

Leo Laporte (01:21:14):
Well, that God bless you. Told you Paul. God bless Ed. In fact, from now on, you'll fine. We're gonna play the the sounds of trains going by. Well, I

Paul Thurrott (01:21:22):
Told you, I watched these YouTube videos. It's just a train rhyme. And for 18 hours, like, I, I love stuff

Speaker 5 (01:21:29):
Like that. There it goes. The north of Southern. Hello. Oh,

Paul Thurrott (01:21:35):
You know how some people like watch, like, look up at planes and they think, oh man, I wonder where that thing's going. And I'm always looking at trains like, man, I wish I could be on that train. I love trains. We just hop on the thing and just take it wherever it's going.

Speaker 5 (01:21:49):
I hope this loops <laugh> just gonna, just gonna keep,

Paul Thurrott (01:21:55):
I used to take the Amtrak into

Speaker 5 (01:21:57):
New York all the time. I actually share, I love trains and

Leo Laporte (01:22:00):
Boats. I don't like planes as much,

Speaker 5 (01:22:02):
But I like trains and boats so far. And not, and greyhounds. No. If you said it's right by the Greyhound station, I wouldn't get so excited. No, no. <Laugh> there's yeah. Pluses that. Why do we keep seeing chalk marks on the sidewalk? All right. Let's move along. It's time for the Xbox segment with Conductor Paul.

Paul Thurrott (01:22:24):
All righty. All right. So

Paul Thurrott (01:22:26):
Microsoft President Brad Smith was in Brussels last week to defend his company's acquisition of Activision Blizzard. And I've sort of made points along these lines in the past, but I, I just wanna drive on this notion that I'm getting tired of this argument. There's absolutely no valid reason for Microsoft not to be able to make this transaction. I'm really get just, I'm really getting impatient. Not impatient. I'm getting aggravated by the arguments otherwise, cuz they, they, they really just kind of boil down to I just don't want 'em to have it <laugh>. You know? And it's like, yeah, that's cute. That's not how the world works. But I'm also vaguely

Leo Laporte (01:23:02):
Actually, this, this is how the world works, I'm sorry to say

Paul Thurrott (01:23:05):
Is exactly how the world works. And that's what's frustrating. Yes. Okay. But here's the thing. The only major complaint about this is coming from Sony, which is a Japanese based consumer electronics giant. And the regulatory bodies that are questioning this acquisition are in Europe and the United States. And their jobs are to protect consumers or businesses and competition in their jurisdictions. Not to protect Sony, you know, and Sony, the company that's already doing that thing, that they're worried that Microsoft will do. And Microsoft only has to agree not to do that thing, which is, you know, make everything exclusive to Xbox, which they've already said they will. I'm just, I just don't understand what the problem is. You know using the FTCs definition of what a console is, Microsoft <laugh> came up with this figure where Sony owns 80% of the market according to the ftc.

 I'm sorry, was it f Yeah, the ftc. And globally it's about a 70 30 split, you know? And that leaves out Nintendo because the FTC only considers PlayStation and Xbox to be direct competitors. Sony is fairly basically evil, I think. I I really do. Yeah, I do. I they're incredibly evil. Yep. Yep. I'm just, I'm getting tired of this. I and I, and so many people come back to me every time there's a anyone says, oh, I don't know about this. So the UK comes out and says, oh, maybe you get rid of Call of Duty and it will be okay. People are like, huh, see, it's over. This is the end of it. Right? And it's like, you know what? No, I don't think it is. I think the only thing that could stop this from happening now is Microsoft saying, we've had enough of this <laugh>. Like, I think Microsoft is gonna be the one that screws it up, because otherwise what they're gonna do is just make the agreements they need to do. And this thing's gonna go through.

Rich Campbell (01:24:49):
Nobody's saying no, they're just humming and highing. Right. Like, to me, this seems like political,

Paul Thurrott (01:24:54):
Hey, this is the political version of the tsa, let's just make it look like we're doing something, you know? Yeah. And I I, I just, I'm just

Rich Campbell (01:25:02):
Tired right now. So it's a good time to be hard on tech

Paul Thurrott (01:25:05):
Giants. Andy, trust Theater. Exactly. Thank you. That's exactly what it's, yep. It's Antitrust Theater. And you know, we'll see the, the funny thing that came out. So Microsoft, of course, has to make itself look bad for this to make sense, right? So they have to give you all these figures where the Xbox looks like it's terrible. And so some of the numbers they gave, which just were just priceless depending on how, like, you know, the companies that are head of Microsoft in the video game business include such companies as Nintendo and Sony, apple and Google, Tencent, right? Microsoft is in sixth place, <laugh>, according to Microsoft, not even close. And if this acquisition goes through by revenue, they will be wait for it in sixth place. <Laugh>. This doesn't even move them up the chart. That it will give them that inroad they want in mobile gaming, which is huge. It will also nicely pat out their cloud gaming especially, but they're, well, I should say there's subscription gaming service especially, right? Because most of this stuff is not gonna be streamed. I don't think we're gonna be streaming Call of Duty any anytime soon. That's just not gonna work. But making it available via Xbox Game Pass to those customers will be huge for Microsoft. And we'll expand the availability, availability of those games. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:26:24):
World Warcraft, right? I mean, that's a subscription model. Yep. Yep. One of the big subscription title, long term running.

Paul Thurrott (01:26:31):
But the, you know, the central ar i I, I just, it bugs me that we even have to make this con like have this conversation. So Brad Smith says, you know, Sony supposedly is worried that Microsoft's gonna take Call of Duty exclusive, even though Microsoft said, here's the agreement, we'll do it for 10 years. We're ne we're not taking it away. We'll put it on your cloud streaming service. How does that sound? Noth Sony doesn't even respond to this. And as Microsoft has said repeatedly, and Brad Smith said this past week, you know, taking Call of Duty away from its most popular platform is not a great way to turn a 69 billion asset into something that we want to be more valuable over time. Right. <laugh>, like what? There's no version of this story where taking this away from Sony makes any sense. Because they don't take it away from Sony, they take it away from those customers that are on Sony.

Rich Campbell (01:27:16):
Right. the question is, how many people would buy Xboxs to play Call of Duty? And I think that, I don't think, I think it's flown. It's gonna be a new title, not a, not a, not a

Paul Thurrott (01:27:27):
Net. None. Because the Call of Duty isn't better on the Xbox than it is on PlayStation. There's no reason to go that route. Now, could that change in the future? I don't, yeah. Could fly cars fly in the future? Could <laugh> Yeah, I guess so. You know, but that's the thing. Like we can look at what Sony has done. We ha we can look at what Microsoft says, and we'll be legally bound to, and then we can have dreams about the future that are just based on whatever. And I don't, I just, I just, there's no rational excuse for saying no to this, and I'm freaking tired of it. <Laugh>

Rich Campbell (01:28:05):
Still. And it's still going, still going

Paul Thurrott (01:28:07):
With No, oh yeah. It's gonna keep

Rich Campbell (01:28:08):
Going. No sign of ending.

Paul Thurrott (01:28:10):

Leo Laporte (01:28:10):
So the US antitrust stuff will get heard in August by by

Paul Thurrott (01:28:17):
A yeah. Unless they're able to settle it before then. Right? Right. Because that's one of the things that could happen.

Leo Laporte (01:28:21):
What's the timeframe on the eu?

Paul Thurrott (01:28:25):
Do you? It's pretty soon. I think it's April.

Leo Laporte (01:28:28):
Okay. Yeah. So this will, this will

Paul Thurrott (01:28:31):
Resolve. And there's the uk right? We have to deal with those non EU idiots <laugh> to make themselves a separate thing for some reason. I'm going, hold on.

Leo Laporte (01:28:44):
Isn't there an argument though that if those three big jurisdictions all have a problem with this, that maybe there is a problem, why are they all involved?

Rich Campbell (01:28:54):
But they, they're, they're not saying, we don't wanna do this. They're just humming and hawing. Right? Like, if there was a problem, I'm saying we gotta look at outline

Paul Thurrott (01:29:00):
The problem, right? They're saying, look, well, the f we're taking to stand on big tech. That's what people wanted. FTC

Leo Laporte (01:29:05):
Says there's a problem. I don't know about the EU in England.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:09):
The ftc communications on this topic look like they were written by Sony. And I have a huge problem with this. This is, this is in fact my central problem. I just don't get it. I don't understand what they're protecting. It just doesn't make any sense. I, if this was some b, if this was Microsoft coming out and saying, look, we're gonna do exactly what Sony did. Screw em. The United States, the S f DC should be like, good for you. Good. You do that. That's what market, protecting market. Yeah. They've screwed over the marketplace for years and years. You, you do that? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:29:41):
Well get ready because I think Congress is going to ban TikTok, which is yet another

Paul Thurrott (01:29:48):
Oh, they're, yeah. They are

Leo Laporte (01:29:48):
Ridiculous overreach.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:51):
Sure. They're not alone, though, by the way. The EU is gonna do the same thing. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:29:57):

Paul Thurrott (01:29:58):
Xenophobia is the best. Leo, I just, yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:30:00):
<Laugh>. This

Paul Thurrott (01:30:01):
Is just unbelievable. Well,

Leo Laporte (01:30:03):
Well, I think it's a distraction from real privacy violations. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> by American firms as much as by Chinese firms. I mean, do something about data brokers. How about that?

Paul Thurrott (01:30:16):
Yeah, that's right.

Leo Laporte (01:30:18):
Not TikTok. This seems to be a proxy war. We,

Paul Thurrott (01:30:24):
We like wars Facebook to do what it's done, but for some reason TikTok is the problem. Yeah. <laugh>, right? Like, like seriously, seriously.

Leo Laporte (01:30:32):
I think America Wants just doesn't, is a warlike nation. And we, you know, we're proxy war with Russia right now in Ukraine spending That's right. Huge amounts of money on that. It's

Paul Thurrott (01:30:41):
A, we're passive aggressive is what we are, you

Leo Laporte (01:30:43):
Know, it's, it's kind of, we

Paul Thurrott (01:30:44):
Don't, we don't actually go after 'em directly.

Leo Laporte (01:30:46):
We don't, yeah. Not tr not blood. Just treasure.

Paul Thurrott (01:30:49):
Thank you. It's like when Apple declared total war on Android and then sued Samsung <laugh>, like, wait, what? Like, didn't sue Google. Right. You know? Right. The company that copied them. Well, I mean, Samsung did too, but I don't

Leo Laporte (01:31:03):
Know. I don't know. I don't know, man. All right. Let's talk about games. More about games, more of that game stuff.

Paul Thurrott (01:31:10):
What should we got? So actually, actually before we get to games AMFA analysis has estimated that Microsoft has sold approximately 18.5 million Xbox Series X and S consoles compared to Sony's publicly stated 32 million units for PlayStation five. So that makes sense, right? I mean, this kind of falls into the, where we think they are with regards to each other, et cetera, et cetera. There was this, we've, we've kind of just stuck with this notion that maybe Sony was out selling Microsoft by about a two to one basis for a while. That's, this is a little bit less than that. Well, it's actually significant. It's about a, almost like a three to two I would call it. Or close to it. But yeah, so, okay, sure. Now it's likely that that gap will grow in the coming year cuz Sony just apparently solved their supply issues <laugh>. So PlayStation fives are readily available now. Whereas I think the Xbox Series X is in particular is still harder to find. Although you can get an Xbox Series S, which is the cheap one pretty easily. So that's kind of, I, I, you know, I don't know where these things come from exactly, but I'm always interested in any, anything that hints at a hard number because Microsoft will never provide that number.

 What else have we got? So we know about Xbox Game Pass. We know about Xbox Game Pass Ultimate, but there's also a PC Game pass. So this is 9 99 in the United States. This past week, Microsoft made this service available to 40 new markets in preview, including a bunch of countries in Europe, the Middle East, north Africa, and South America. So I would, I don't know how many, what the total is. I don't know if there's a total number of markets here, but I have to think, oh, it's 86 there. How many, how many countries are in the world? 87 <laugh>. I think this is most of 'em, right? So if you want to get on the PC Game Pass chances are pretty good, you can now access that subscription service no matter where you live. It's March 1st today as we record this.

And that means we have a new selection of games with gold titles that are coming this month. And if you've been following along you know that Microsoft dropped this from four games down to two at some point last year because they were running outta games, frankly. And now all the games we're getting are Xbox One are newer titles. So we've typically had two games each month. This month we're actually getting three, which is great. I don't know what any of these things are, which is not so great. But <laugh>, there's something called I'm not gonna pronounce this right, but truer, truer Brook <laugh> and then there's a World War II themed RTS game called Sudden Strike Four, a complete collection, which actually sounds pretty good. And then survival Horror Game called Mentum <laugh>. So I guess they've rented all, all the good names are taken at this point. Yeah. It's like domain names. Yeah. yeah. Good luck. Good luck with that. And then finally, and actually this is interesting cause this, this is kind of Richard themed In both ends Microsoft has announced new content for Flight Simulator and four Z Horizon five. So the new content for flight Simulator is a world update for New Zealand where Richard is now,

Rich Campbell (01:34:22):
Didn't they also end the a n 2 25?

Paul Thurrott (01:34:25):
Yeah, there was a plane that was separate from the world update, but yeah, this the, the world's heaviest plane. Is that the one

Rich Campbell (01:34:30):
Lar Yeah, six engine. The one that was destroyed in the war? Yeah, it parked for another one. Yeah, it was, it transported the Boran space shuttle. That's Soviet Space shuttle in the day. Back in the

Paul Thurrott (01:34:39):
Day. Oh, cool. Okay. Yeah. So this one has it's like high resolution imagery, right? We've seen this for various places, but the previous one, by the way, was wait for it for Canada <laugh>. There you go. It's almost like the following year around Weird. I wanted weird a play flight simulator on my brand new tv and it took it, well,

Leo Laporte (01:34:57):
Not yet. It's still downloading

Paul Thurrott (01:34:58):
<Laugh>. It had a big

Leo Laporte (01:35:00):

Paul Thurrott (01:35:00):
I hadn't updated in a while. Well, I did You have a terrible driving, I think. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:35:04):
Yeah, it's great. No, it was on there, but I now I but I, all of these updates are many more gigabytes. No, I

Paul Thurrott (01:35:10):
Have, that's right. They're huge. Yeah. They're, their world models are beautiful. Really. I know. Really it's, I know they're astonishing. Yeah, they really are. Nice. I still

Leo Laporte (01:35:19):
Want to, I want to beat Paul under the Eiffel Tower. That's my goal.

Paul Thurrott (01:35:22):
<Laugh>, right? I had to get rid of fly some later on my console. Cause I didn't have enough room for Call of Duty. But so you probably are gonna beat me. Unfortunately, <laugh> looks

Leo Laporte (01:35:33):
Good on that q d lead. I gotta say's

Paul Thurrott (01:35:34):
Gorgeous. Yeah, I bet it does. How big? 76.

Leo Laporte (01:35:37):

Paul Thurrott (01:35:39):
77. Yeah. Nice. Yeah, so World Updates for Flight Summer free. You, if, however you have it, if you have that game, you'll get, you'll get this for free if you want it. And then for, for Horizon five is also getting new content with a re adventure expansion pack. That's a paid add on. The last one they did for this was really cool. That was the Hot Wheels one. But this costs $28 and all you can get is part of an expansion bundle or blah, a different bundle. So cool. But if you have Game Pass for console or pc, it's free. You can get it through there. That's awesome. I think that's everything. Yep. Yay.

Leo Laporte (01:36:19):
All right. Before we get to the back of the book, Hey everybody, it's Leo LaPorte, the founder and host of many of the TWIT podcasts. I don't normally talk to you about advertising, but I want to take a moment to do that right now. Our mission statement at twit, we're dedicated to building a highly engaged community of tech enthusiasts. That's our audience. And you, I guess, since you're listening, by offering them the knowledge they need to understand and use technology in today's world. To do that, we also create partnerships with trusted brands and make important introductions between them and our audience. It's how we finance our podcasts, but it's also, and our audience tells us this all the time. A part of the service we offer, it's a valued bit of information for our audience members. They wanna know about great brands like yours.

So can we help you by introducing you to our highly qualified audience? And by the, you get a lot with advertising on the TWIT podcasts. Partnering with TWIT means you're gonna get, if I may say so humbly the gold standard in podcast advertising. And we throw in a lot of valuable services. You get a full service continuity team supporting everything from copywriting to graphic design. I don't think anybody else does this or does this as well as we do. You get ads that are embedded in our content that are unique every time I read them, our hosts read them. We always over-deliver on impressions. And frankly, we are here to talk about your product. So we really give our listeners a great introduction to what you offer. We've got onboarding services, ad tech with pod sites that's free for direct clients. We give you a lot of reporting so you know who saw your advertisement.

You'll even know how many responded by going to your website. We'll also give you courtesy commercials that you can share across social media and landing pages. We think these are really valuable people like me and our other hosts talking about your product sincerely and informationally, those are incredibly valuable. You also get other free goodies mentions in our weekly newsletter that's sent out to thousands of fans. We give bonus ads to people who buy a significant amount of advertising. You'll get social media promotion too. But let me tell you, we are looking for an advertising partner that's gonna be with us long term. Visit Twitter tv slash advertise. Check out our partner testimonials. Tim Broom, founder of IT Pro tv. They started it pro TV in 2013, immediately started advertising with us and grew that company to a, a really amazing success. Hundreds of thousands of ongoing customers.

They've been on our network for more than 10 years. And they say, and I'll quote Tim, we would not be where we are today without the twit network. That's just one example. Mark McCreary, who's the c e o of Authentic he was actually one of the first people to buy ads on our network. He's been with us for 16 years. He said, and I'm quoting, the feedback from many advertisers over those 16 years across a range of product categories is that if ads and podcasts are gonna work for a brand, they're gonna work on Twitch shows. I'm proud to say that the ads we do over-deliver. They work really well because they're honest. They have integrity. Our audience trusts us and we say, this is a great product. They believe it, they listen. Our listeners are highly intelligent. They're heavily engaged, they're tech savvy.

They're dedicated to our network. And that's partly because we only work with high integrity partners that we have thoroughly and personally vetted. I approve every single advertiser on the network. If you're ready to elevate your brand and you've got a great product, I want you to reach out to us, So I want you to break out of the advertising norm, grow your brand with host Red authentic Ads on Visit TWI tv slash advertise for more details, or email us if you're ready to launch your campaign Now. Paul Thout. Yeah, Richard Campbell. Just wanna put in a little plug. You probably have noticed somewhat of a dearth of advertising in all of our shows. That is not for lack of trying. We care a lot. And we have great sponsors like our sponsor today, Melissa, who know what a big difference advertising on Twit can make for their business.

That's why companies like Audible have been with us for so long. But in general, there's a downturn in podcast advertising and that happens, you know, it's kind of a cyclic business, but we are not, we're not funded by a giant corporation. We don't have venture capital. And so when there's a downturn, the lights dim. <Laugh>. We have to, we have to turn off a couple of cameras, you know we're, we might have to cancel shows. So what? And we don't want to do that. So what we do is we go to you and ask you, just like public broadcasting does to help us out. We created Club Twit two years ago. It's been two years now to give people a chance to do that. It's seven bucks a month. Now. You can, by the way, if, if you've, you know, you say, well, I'm gonna give you three cups of coffee a month.

You can up it if you want. But that seven bucks goes right into the general fund. Keeps people employed, keeps shows going, helps us start new shows, keeps the club going. What do you get for seven bucks? I think it's a, i we we give you good value for money. Add free versions of everything. So you're paying for it. You don't need to hear ads. You wouldn't even hear this ad if you were a club member. If if you, if that's not enough. We also give you access to, I think what is the best social network in the world are Discord, where people chat not only about the shows, but about all kinds of topics, including travel. And I, you know what? I should start a little trains section for you, Paul. All sorts of stuff. Anime, autos cooking, beer, wine shows are good too.

Alcohol, blue, brown liquor, blue liquor, whatever color liquor you want it's all in the discord. And that's a lot of fun cuz you're hanging out with people like you who who are club Twit members, club twit members only. That's one of the ways to make it a great social network, just to have a little, a bar to entry. It works really nicely. And of course, we also give you stuff you don't get anywhere else, including on our regular feeds. We have Paul's HandsOn Windows show, for instance. Micah Sergeant does a hands on Macintosh. The the Linnux Show, the GIZ Fizz with Dick d Bartolo. And all of that is because the club pays for it. The club members, you're supporting those shows. So you get 'em, I think it's a great deal. Seven bucks a month. But mostly the reason you should do it is for the good feeling, knowing you're supporting the content you like.

Now, if you don't like our content, oh, please don't, don't participate. It's okay. It's only if you wanna support what we're doing. I'm, I like our content. I'm proud of what we're doing. I love the team we put together. And I think we, we do a really good job personally, if you agree, twi help us out. We only have one ad in the show today. We only have one ad in twig yesterday. One ad in Mac Break Weekly. That's not quite breakeven. That's, that's, that's a, that means we're gonna lose money on those shows. And we can only do that for so long before Leo's pockets are empty. So help us out here, see Empty Nothing Twitter TV slash club Twitter. It's an investment in great content and we are very grateful to you. So with that, I thank all our all our members, all our Club TWI members, and we continue on with what we call the back of the book, Paul Throt and his Tip of the Week.

Paul Thurrott (01:44:19):
Oh, two things before that. Sorry. I just did an episode of hands on Windows for that moment to update. That will be out a week from tomorrow. I was hoping to get it in this week, but there wasn't enough time.

Leo Laporte (01:44:31):
Great. Oh

Paul Thurrott (01:44:32):
Good. So that's coming.

Leo Laporte (01:44:33):
So you get a, a demo and you do those in video, right? So people can see all that.

Paul Thurrott (01:44:36):
That's right. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, it's all screen stuff for the most part. God knows. People don't wanna look at me for too long. And I was just looking as you started the the ad earlier, I was looking at that Bing thing again. I remember I was telling you that it will load in your default browser nod in yeah. Microsoft Edge, which I, I'm still fascinated by, but I just went to the search interface and I clicked on the Bing logo, and it loads edge. It loads bing edge. No, but lo no, it loads in Brave, but it puts up this gigantic ad and it says, chat mode is only available when you have access to the new Bing. Ah, and then it says, which you have to use in Microsoft Edge. Yeah. So when I go to the new Bing in this browser, I don't get the ability to chat. Let me, let

Leo Laporte (01:45:24):
Me, let me try this. Lemme try this. So yeah, I'm gonna click that search pill. Remember I set Firefox as my default, right?

Paul Thurrott (01:45:31):
So That's right. It

Leo Laporte (01:45:32):
Is the default. I'm gonna click this little Bing logo right here. It

Paul Thurrott (01:45:35):
Should load in Firefi. No, it didn't. I don't know what's going on here. All right. I will say this is the unpredictability I do expect from Microsoft, so I appreciate that part of

Leo Laporte (01:45:44):
It. Is it, it's AB testing and stuff. I mean,

Paul Thurrott (01:45:47):
I don't, you know what I, I, geez, I hate to ascribe some you know, intelligence to what's happening. I don't know. I'm sorry. I, I I don't know. This just, we literally just got this yesterday. I'm, I'm sometimes AB testing is actually AA testing. A, a

Leo Laporte (01:46:02):
A. Yeah. You know what? I just, I'm looking here. And even though I had said Firefox's default browser, it

Paul Thurrott (01:46:07):
Still says set.

Leo Laporte (01:46:08):
Yeah. So maybe it's not,

Paul Thurrott (01:46:09):
That's again, right. No,

Leo Laporte (01:46:11):
Let's do this again. It is, it wasn't browser. Yeah. Now let's try it again. Here. Let's do, let's hit the Bing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, Bing and Edge launches coming up

Paul Thurrott (01:46:20):
From Edge. Yeah. So on mine, it's going to brave. So I don't know.

Leo Laporte (01:46:25):
But you're not, but see, you didn't get in. I'm in. That's

Paul Thurrott (01:46:28):
Right. That's

Leo Laporte (01:46:29):
True. And that was a pre, that was a prerequisite. They might

Paul Thurrott (01:46:31):
Be be forcing it because they really want, you know, that they're gonna, this is how they're gonna force edge usage potentially, is make you use Edge to access that feature. Yep. So this company,

Leo Laporte (01:46:42):
<Laugh>, all right, let's learn a new skill.

Paul Thurrott (01:46:47):
Yeah. Let's, so, as you know, Leo, cause I've been talking about it incessantly for the past five years. I have kind of returned to my programming roots and have been experimenting with programming for a long time now. And have written programs and have done all kinds of different things. But there's a, there's kind of this gap between, you know, you, I can, you can watch a video about a language or a new version of a language, or a new framework or whatever it is. You can listen to podcasts, you can watch, you can read books, you know, but you have to code. Like coding is like golf. You can't like dabble in it. You have to do it, you know, you have to do the thing to become skilled in it. And it's it requires time, you know, whatever that amount of time is.

And it's hard to find the incentive to do things like, you know, I I, I, I came up with this thing where I said, well, I'm gonna try to, in the original, originally, I was just planning to show, demonstrate how easy it would be to create the UI for a notepad like application using saml. And then as I did it, I realized, you know, it'd be pretty easy just to write the whole application. Maybe I should do that. And then I've recreated it in different languages and frameworks and so forth. But after a while it's like, okay, I've written, I've done the notepad thing a few times, so maybe it's time to move on. And it's, it's hard to find that, that thing, it's hard to find the thing that will keep you coding every day if you're not a professional programmer. So, it's not something I do for my job.

And so what I found is two things. You can and I, I was watching a random video. It was just about JavaScript. It had nothing to do with anything. But this guy had two little bits of advice that I found really interesting. One is, and, and Leo knows all about this stuff. I'm, this is not gonna be news to you, but there are coding challenging ch coding challenges, websites like Edit Abit, where you can go and click on the language you want and you can go through easy fun. So fun, you know, mediums complex, whatever. Yeah. I spent literally three hours on one of these things the other night. Not in one challenge. I'm sorry. Just on on doing many challenges. I love it. I love it. Yeah. It's, it's I, I find that to be, it's

Leo Laporte (01:48:41):
A game for me.

Paul Thurrott (01:48:42):
There you go. It's a gamification. It's like a

Leo Laporte (01:48:44):
Cross. Yeah. It's like a crossword puzzle. That's right. And I do it because I want to keep my chops up and I want to keep my brain That's right. Working. Cuz I don't have any coding assignments. I not, I'm not a professional coder. <Laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (01:48:56):
I mean, I could

Leo Laporte (01:48:56):
Exactly. I could make up a project like your notepad. That's exactly right. But honestly, I kind of more prefer having these little discreet challenges, like the advent of coders. I do

Paul Thurrott (01:49:05):
Too. Project

Leo Laporte (01:49:06):
Oilers, but also is great. There's hacker rank. There's a ton of these. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:49:10):
Yeah. So much. I have not, I've not researched it further. I've

Leo Laporte (01:49:13):
Been, I have a whole folder of links to these. There you go. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:49:18):
But there are

Rich Campbell (01:49:18):
Also, you're also good when you are a professional developer because you,

Paul Thurrott (01:49:21):
There you go. Yeah. Keep yourself, yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:49:23):
You press against the edges of your skills. Right? Like, normally if I'm paying you to develop, I don't really want you to be at the edge of your skills. I want you to be ready at 80% point. Yeah. Where you, I know you can do this reliably.

Paul Thurrott (01:49:35):
Right? I like every once in a while to be, I'll just use a simple example. It'd be like you know, count the number of digits in a number. And I think, well, this is really easy. This is in JavaScript. They'll convert it to a string, and then that's easy. You can just parse the string and then you read the instructions and at the bottom says, try to do this without converting it to a string

Leo Laporte (01:49:51):

Paul Thurrott (01:49:51):
Like nice <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:49:53):
I you know, I think for me never having a studied computer science, it teaches I've, it forces me and teaches me how to learn things like algorithms, the nice thing that advent of code is he will almost always come up with challenges that you have to pay attention to efficiency as well. You know, you'll, you know, you pay attention to your big o notation because the brute force method, while it works, will take 3 trillion years. And so you, and so as a result, you learn these algorithms. You know, and it's, I feel like this is cool. I'm, you know, my, I'm expanding my knowledge and my brain and it's fun. Well,

Paul Thurrott (01:50:33):
And you're using your brain. It's super healthy. I mean, it's just really, yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:50:36):
To me it's like, it's like woodworking. Yeah. I don't, you know, I remember when I was a young guy, an older guy said, you, now what do you do with your hands? You gotta do something with your hands. I didn't really wanna tell him what I do with my hands. So I said, I don't do anything Sure. With my hands. And he said, well, you gotta, and I, and I think maybe that's true, except I, I'm just, I'm a klutz, so yeah. I do something with my brain. You don't

Paul Thurrott (01:50:59):
Throw my hands either.

Leo Laporte (01:51:00):
Yeah. Yeah. But it's like that, it's something to keep your chops up. I like it.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:05):
I also, you know, when you think about, like, you could look this up, like what are the best, like, I'm looking for ideas. Like what are the best types of apps I should make? It's, you always get the same list. It's like to-do app calculator, <laugh>, you know, weather app, you know, it's always the same kind of thing. But the thing that's goofy about that to me is like, I've looked at so many of these things, and like, you look at a to-do app, like every time somebody creates a to-do app, they're not really creating a to-do app. They're creating this like, part of a to-do app. It's just like, here's an app that you can, you can add to it and you can take away, and you can check things off. And it's like, that's cute. But I want this to connect to a backend service. Like, I want to be able to hit this. I wanna be able to sign in and use, get this data from anywhere. You know, like a real app <laugh>, you know, and that, that's, those things are actually kind of hard to find. So I might, I'm gonna look into doing, I I might do some, yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:51:54):
Your exercise is gonna be, how do I put a file in the cloud that multiple endpoints can connect you simultaneously.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:59):
That's right. And actually, the ideal way for me to do that would be to create a, to-do app first in a command line environment using shehar and whatever. And then do various DUIs on top of it, because it's gonna be the same backend code. Like once I figure out how to sync this thing up to the cloud you know, the UI shouldn't matter. The UI is just, you know, window dressing, literally. I mean anyway, you also gonna decide

Rich Campbell (01:52:22):
On merge conflict, right? Okay. Now two different entities are entities

Paul Thurrott (01:52:26):
State. Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. Right. Exactly. Anyway, there's a whole world out there. And I'm, look, I, I'm just, I'm interested in programming, so that's my thing. But I feel like if whatever you might be interested in, there must be similar things like this to, you know, if you're learning a, a, a foreign language maybe, which I guess is

Leo Laporte (01:52:46):
Also what language Yeah. There's, you know, there's there that's a good example because there's 15 different apps that you can put on your phone that'll teach you a foreign language. Yep. Yep. I play chess orally. Chess, which is free and open source. L i c h e s s are great sites you can put on your phone, you could play against real people machines. That's another one. Or do problems for this Great. For your brain. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I agree with you. I, I think this is pretty important. In fact, there were even, it's still, they're still around these category of apps, brain games, apps. Yeah. Supposedly design designed by scientists to keep your brain nimble. So sure. They have mixes of different styles of, okay, this is the one thing I worry about with coding, is it's a, it's only a, it's this part right here of my brain. So I want to get this other part too. That's why I'm taking up Plen Air painting and

Paul Thurrott (01:53:43):
Len Air,

Leo Laporte (01:53:44):
Plen planer, pple Air. I'm gonna get an easel, like

Paul Thurrott (01:53:46):
Plain air. I'm

Leo Laporte (01:53:47):
Gonna get a hat. I'm gonna go out in the countryside. And

Paul Thurrott (01:53:51):
I, so you're gonna be like Bob Ross, like

Leo Laporte (01:53:54):
<Laugh>, fluffy

Paul Thurrott (01:53:54):
Little trees. Paint the happy little trees,

Leo Laporte (01:53:56):
Happy little trees.

Rich Campbell (01:53:59):
Nothing. Everything is happy accident.

Paul Thurrott (01:54:01):
I would like, I always, Ima so I, that's how

Leo Laporte (01:54:02):
I go. By the way, everything is a accident. Accident. <laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (01:54:07):
I was an artist in a former life, and I always had this dream that I would set up an easel on a, in front of a beautiful landscape somewhere and do exactly what you're describing. Yeah. But then paint some horrific scene so that when people came over to look at what I was looking at Geiger, what the hell is that? Glen Air paint? And I'd be like, that's how I see the world. <Laugh>. Yeah. It's just a mess. Every

Rich Campbell (01:54:29):
Airplane is crashing. Every car is

Paul Thurrott (01:54:30):
On fire. Yep. Everything. Why is everything on fire? Anything

Leo Laporte (01:54:33):
<Laugh> <laugh>. Oh boy. This is fine. This is fine. Exactly. yeah. I should put together a list cuz I have

Paul Thurrott (01:54:47):
Yeah, I'd like to see one actually, I

Leo Laporte (01:54:48):
Will I will I'll send it to you and yeah, maybe we can put it somewhere anyway. Cuz I, yeah, I do a

Paul Thurrott (01:54:54):
Lot of these. I wanna go through and do these in different languages. You know, I'm, I'm right now I'm just screwing out with the JavaScript for no reason whatsoever. But it's interesting to me what the differences are between it and other languages and whatever. But I mean, I could picture, you know, doing a, trying to do the same challenges in different languages. Even,

Leo Laporte (01:55:11):
You know, there there are a number of 'em, like hacker rank that you choose the language. Yes. Some of them, I have to say I've been spoiled by advent of code. The only problem is it's only one month a year, but it's really well done because you, everybody gets different problem data, so everybody comes up with a different answer. So you can't really cheat. And, and that means you can write in any language you want. You just have to get that number at the end.

Paul Thurrott (01:55:35):
Although, I will say, yeah. So the ones I'm doing, they have sample inputs mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and they give you the results and then you spit it out in the console and it's all the right values. You're like, yep. <Laugh>. Yeah. Like, it, it's always nice. It's a nice little feedback loop. You know,

Leo Laporte (01:55:50):
Project Oiler is very well known for numeric problems. Like the one you described I'm trying to think of some, some other ones. I've, I've done a whole bunch of them. I truthfully because I'm a very slow coder, advent of code, even though it's an advent calendar, so it's just 25 problems in the month of December usually takes me all year. So <laugh>. So I have plenty to do,

Paul Thurrott (01:56:15):
Whatever. I mean, I, you know, but you're not a,

Leo Laporte (01:56:18):
I'm not a professional your

Paul Thurrott (01:56:19):
Career. No. Right. I mean, I'm, you, I'm, you know, that's, yeah. I think this is a good use of time, personally.

Leo Laporte (01:56:26):
Yeah, I do. Yeah. I love

Rich Campbell (01:56:27):
It. You guys wanna put some pressure on yourselves? Start tinker with home assistance, then you got a little program

Leo Laporte (01:56:32):

Rich Campbell (01:56:33):
Hardware problem. And your wife's mad at you

Paul Thurrott (01:56:36):

Leo Laporte (01:56:36):
Perfect. Honey, the lights keep coming on. Well that's so the train can see as it comes through town,

Rich Campbell (01:56:42):
That pressure, it has to work. Yeah. It's like, otherwise, otherwise you're just tinkering.

Paul Thurrott (01:56:48):
<Laugh>. Yeah, <laugh>,

Leo Laporte (01:56:51):
I'm tinkering. I actually, to me, especially cuz I do in functional code, it is like making little boxes, little, you know, steam engines that inter interconnect. And and so for me it's

Paul Thurrott (01:57:04):
Trying to, trying to get me interested in functional programing.

Leo Laporte (01:57:06):
Oh, so fun

Paul Thurrott (01:57:07):
With the train

Leo Laporte (01:57:08):
<Laugh>. So she said, well, I need a little box that does this, and then I need a little box that does this, and we connect the two together and they need a little box that does that. 

Paul Thurrott (01:57:18):
Not just, I'm going down that path. Right.

Rich Campbell (01:57:19):
Code that's hard to read.

Leo Laporte (01:57:21):
<Laugh>, right. My code is easy.

Paul Thurrott (01:57:24):
I do value readability over anything else. I

Leo Laporte (01:57:27):
Comment heavily. In fact, I'm a fan of literate programming, you know, that that's the, the, you know Donald, the wor the Knuth idea that you really writing prose with some code snippets mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and then the code executes. But I, I don't actually work in a literate programming environment, so I just have a lot of

Paul Thurrott (01:57:47):
Comments. So Donald Knuth, is that how we say his name? Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:57:50):
That's how I say it. I don't

Paul Thurrott (01:57:51):
Know. Yeah, no, I think you're right. I'm not, I asked because I'm not sure. Charles Petzel to me is kind of a similar character.

Leo Laporte (01:57:58):
Yeah, yeah. Legendary.

Paul Thurrott (01:58:00):
Of course. Yeah. You know, he wrote the programming Windows books, which was the straight C A P I stuff. And before there was a Windows, well, that's not true. There was a Windows around the same time. There was early versions of Windows. Microsoft at one point was gonna go off and do OS two with with I B M. Yeah. And so the os Yeah, the original os two APIs were based on the Windows APIs were very similar. So this wasn't actually in the programming windows, but it wasn't programming OS two. And I always thought this was the best. He basically just said, there's only two things you gotta do to make a Windows program. You create a window and then you create a message loop. The rest are just details. I'm like, yep. No, that's true. That's pretty much true. Yeah. You, you've, you've obscured the 99.9% of the <laugh> the application. That's really hard. But yeah, no, that's, yeah. It's like, that's a nice way of looking at it, I guess, but Yeah, yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:58:45):
Yeah. Well, I I that's, somebody was complaining. He said, I hope that Windows doesn't become, windows Weekly doesn't become a programmer's show. But all three of us do code. One of us does it for real.

Paul Thurrott (01:59:00):
Let me, for me, a professional programmer is somebody who's paid to write code. Right? Nobody's paying me to write code. So there we go. I'll make this, we all do it for fun. Make this, I'll make this defense of that, which is that and I, this is the premise of that programming Windows series I wrote and whatever this book is that eventually comes out of it, which is that to truly understand this platform that you claim to love so much you really need to know how to write apps for it, because that's how that explains the what of the why.

Leo Laporte (01:59:29):
Well, abs, you know,

Paul Thurrott (01:59:30):

Leo Laporte (01:59:30):
I, I would say that that is, I may not still be true, but boy, for when I was starting out learning about computing, the fact that I could write code and was writing assembly code on Max and Ataris and was really helpful.

Paul Thurrott (01:59:45):

Leo Laporte (01:59:45):
I, you had, I understood the, the hardware, how it worked, and that's how that's held me in good stead.

Paul Thurrott (01:59:53):
Well, in my 50 year we are, you think about it, people who are reporters or reviewers or bloggers. Now you go to some Microsoft event, you're talking to people or engineers perhaps about some product, they can quickly figure out who in the room knows what they're talking about <laugh>. And one of the ways you can know what you're talking about is to have a deeper technical understanding of the topic. Right. there are a lot of people there from mainstream publications who can, you know, spot a, a flower in a UI or something, but they don't understand how things are made. And you can see them light up a little bit. <Laugh>, you know, I, this is something I've experienced over my life where they get a little run down by having to deal with the Normies. Right. And then I walk in the room and we start talking and they're like,

Leo Laporte (02:00:34):
Much better. Like,

Paul Thurrott (02:00:35):
You understand where we're at, much better at

Leo Laporte (02:00:37):
School. Yeah, yeah.

Paul Thurrott (02:00:38):
Helps a sense of what's hard and what's easy. Yeah. All right.

Leo Laporte (02:00:43):
All right. Anyway, we will, we will not become a developer show. We do like to talk about it cuz it's our, our hobby. No. but you know, Richard brings a lot of enterprise experience. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Paul is right down in the, in the weeds with how Windows works. I think we got a pretty good team to do this show. And of course Paul Oh

Paul Thurrott (02:01:01):
Yeah, yeah, of course. 

Leo Laporte (02:01:02):
Has been covering Microsoft for a long, a long time and I I love Lennox. So that's, those are my credentials.

Paul Thurrott (02:01:10):
Leo is what we call the Lokey character. <Laugh>, the, the soer of Discord in Chaos. <Laugh>, he just runs it and he's like, what about Lennox? What about Lennox <laugh>? Hey, you

Leo Laporte (02:01:20):
Guys ever tried Lennox? I use Arch by the way. <Laugh>. So that was that was our that was our tip of the week.

Paul Thurrott (02:01:30):
Yes. This, the app pick will be much quicker. <Laugh>. So I mentioned earlier in the show that I took an Is o Create that was downloaded by Parallels and turned it into a bootable us B drive. And I used a, a tool called rufuss. You should use this for this type of thing. Free. Yeah, it is. And the reason it's so great is because it's automatic. It looks at the thing you're trying to make a disc out of and it says, Hey, it looks like you're trying to make a Windows Boot disc. You, it, it's, it needs to be like this. And you're like, yep, you do whatever you want. And if it's a Windows 11 i s o, it actually gives you those choices now where you can bypass the hardware requirements if that's what you want to do. So it's kind of the all in one tool is a portable version if you want that. But lightweight, super easy to install. Super easy is really quick too, by the way. It's just this is the one of those tools that should be in everyone's tool set. So I can't imagine most of you haven't heard of it, I guess <laugh>, so, but we

Leo Laporte (02:02:26):
All endorse it. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (02:02:28):
Yes. Very, very good.

Leo Laporte (02:02:29):
And Rufuss was briefly the way you could use a local login, right? Is that, that's not the case anymore?

Paul Thurrott (02:02:35):
It still is. No, no. They still do it. Yep. Okay. Yep. Yeah. That's one of the things they bypass. Yep. Yep.

Leo Laporte (02:02:40):
What's on this week on Run as radio? Is it, is it, is it running without you or are you still doing it from far?

Rich Campbell (02:02:47):
You know, it's all pre-recorded. So these are actually shows that I recorded at the n c conference in London, ah, a few weeks ago now actually. It's been a while. And so this is the first time I'd ever talked to Leslie Cordero. She works for the New York Times in their IT department. And we're, we were talking about reliability management. We actually got really stuck on this one key topic, which was when you are on call, so you're being paid to be available to provide sup, you know, support on demand or for reliability, like keeping, keeping a site up through the weekend, that kind of thing. What do you do when you're not actually fighting the fire? And so, and often these folks are also writing codes. So it's like, well then you work on your sprint items. And she pushed it back on that saying like, no, because it's so interruptible, it codes you Right. For your sprint in no scenarios is inevitably back true.

Leo Laporte (02:03:39):

Rich Campbell (02:03:40):
So she was pushing back on the more on this idea of work on preventative measures mm-hmm. <Affirmative> fix stuff, the more of the things you would never otherwise get to that tend to be smaller. In fact, it, it's worthwhile to build up the sort of repertoire of projects inside of your organization that are, they're all maintenance. They're, they're technical debt, they're those kinds of things that can be tinkered with in the 80 or 10 hour shift you're doing on call. That makes sense. In between

Leo Laporte (02:04:09):
Do your automation, do your DevOps stuff, stuff like

Rich Campbell (02:04:11):
That. All all those kinds of things. Anyway, it turned into a real powerful conversation. I thought. Sounds

Leo Laporte (02:04:16):
Great. Appreciate Yeah.

Rich Campbell (02:04:19):
Wicked smart person. Just like she's got it going on. It, it's, it's fun to talk to someone who's in the trenches. Like had been on call that week. Wow.

Leo Laporte (02:04:29):
Wow. At New York Times too. Wow. You're interesting. Cool. 

Paul Thurrott (02:04:34):
Did you, I know she's got her hands full, so she has to deal with Kevin

Leo Laporte (02:04:36):
Russ, so, oh God. <Laugh>. Do you think, I have to say having worked in organizations covering technology where you have people like me, the, the reporters and you have the actual IT people and technology people <laugh> for the most part, they must hate each other. They just, they go get

Rich Campbell (02:04:58):
Outta here, very clear of each other. They know we're near each other.

Leo Laporte (02:05:00):
The guy in the meeting, Kevin's like, get outta here. Yeah. But do you know that? No. He's like, yeah, yeah. We know. Have heard of reacts. Really? And I mean, I'm very excited about Jake Qury. Yeah, exactly. And and they go, yeah, get outta here. More, most of the IT people I've worked with have have real, just like that thing you talked about Paul, where you, if you could say a few things that sound, are you using Postgres or Mayas quel today? They they get they get a little more excited. They just bury their heads in their hands. Hang, here we go. Oh, no, no, no. Here we go. Nothing You would care about Leo <laugh>. Do you? I tell you what, I care about Brown Liquor. What do you got for us?

Rich Campbell (02:05:39):
Well, you know, we've been doing this how you make Scottish whiskey series and last week we were talking about the barley part and the fact that most be, because there's so much demand for Scottish whiskey these days. Most barley is shipped to the distilleries as grist already malted, dried and ground to specification. And we haven't really gone through all of these different steps. So we, we know it's particular kind of barley that they, they tend to use particularly the two row barleys. But malting, I know we talk about whiskey being single malt and we can get into what single malting actually means at some form. But malting is the process of turning that dry kernel of barley into enough sugar that you can actually make some wart from it through a wash process. So you have to essentially sprout the barley that's bolting.

And again, most distilleries today have this done by a commercial service. They don't do it themselves, but there are an exception. And that's my pick of the day, which is from the Bomar distillery. The, they're Bomar 15, which is a favorite of mine. Not especially pricey, about 70 US dollars. If you can find it, it is a ped whiskey cuz it is from isle. And we'll talk about why that is. And aged in, in bourbon casks, American bourbon casks cuz they're plentiful and then finished in sherry casts. So again, you, you don't know when you put it into a barrel how long you're gonna leave it in the barrel for, but when it gets to a certain flavor profile, if you're happy with it, then you would put it into a finishing barrel for three years or so. So for a Bowmore 15, it's been 12 years in bourbon and now it's spent three years in Sherry and you get a quiet out with, they call a burnt sienna. This very reddish color in the whiskey drinks very nicely, you know a smooth but peed,

Leo Laporte (02:07:27):
Huh? Because after

Rich Campbell (02:07:28):
Tough Yeah, you have to be up for the peat. Is that something you want? And Bomar is an unusual distillery because they mulch their own barley. So they buy barley from a bunch of different places. They don't, can't only get it in Scotland, they don't get enough of it. And then they'll soak it in water for 27 hours as they say, they're particular about the river to get the water from, you know, all these little details. And then they'll spread it out on these stone floors in their malt barns. Oh

Leo Laporte (02:07:58):
My god.

Rich Campbell (02:07:59):
<Laugh>. And, and let it sit for days. And about every 24 hours they'll turn it, they'll, they'll turn over the malt until it's sprouted. Till it's what they call green malt. So you are the lo the long chain carbohydrates that have made in the seed that are very durable begin to enzymatically process into sugars, which then can be made into the plant. So now you have a little bit of root poking out the bottom of the seed, a little bit of stem poking out the top of the seed. It's been malted and now it has to be killed fried. And so that is, and now it has

Leo Laporte (02:08:32):
To be killed. K i l n. He's pronouncing it properly. Killed, killed, killed is how you say it though. Yeah, gotcha. Sorry.

Rich Campbell (02:08:39):
But kilda is also correct cuz you are gonna now kill the plant. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Want

Leo Laporte (02:08:43):
The plant? You know what, it's funny because when I make brown rice, I sprout it. I like s sprouted grains. For us there was more helpful for you. So it's interesting I didn't realize that what malting was <laugh> it basically cover it's that's exactly what it's Yeah.

Rich Campbell (02:08:59):
<Laugh>, I need you to digest. Yeah.

So dry went to to dry the malt to stop it from growing before you're now grind it up to then send to the wash. It's put into kilns where it is heated particularly about 60 reintegrate enough to to stop the grow growing process and be ready for grinding. Dry it out enough that it'll grind. Well not go mushy. Now the I Isle is a region in Scotland. It's an island. It's an island and it's extremely windy. And so they don't have very many trees there. And so they use peat to run their furnaces for malting. Wow. Because they don't have anything else. And that's where the spoke flavor, that peti flavor comes from. Oh, is that you, you have ped the, the, the malt by drying it by burning Malt. By burning Pete.

Leo Laporte (02:09:50):
I'll be titty, danged look. They do it in a barn that's made of windows

Rich Campbell (02:09:55):
They malt. Nice.

Leo Laporte (02:09:57):
<Laugh>. A Windows logo. Yeah. this is really interesting, Richard. I'm glad you're doing this. I also note this would be a good whiskey to have for this weekend because Formula One kicks off this weekend and they have an Aston Martin what version of the Bowmore, which is hysterical. Well and I'm a Fernando Alonso fan, so I am, I'm gonna get a little one of these Aston Martins versions. That's old. An old Aston. Look at that old Aston. Yeah, that's the James Bond. Aston Martin. And there's the f1, that's the pre James Bond. Aston maybe. So I'm gonna, well this one is, yeah, these are the racing. So I'm gonna definitely have to go with one of those for F1 weekend.

Rich Campbell (02:10:38):
Wow. Wow.

Leo Laporte (02:10:40):

Rich Campbell (02:10:41):
So that's the, the Bomo. This is a cigar whiskey, if you like smoking cigars, which I do. You'll like, they'll get those two. Get along very, very well. I do not like cigars. Yep. <laugh>. But when I'm say smoking a brisket, if I'm smoking myself, very smoke, I'm perfectly happy to be doing than smoke. There you

Leo Laporte (02:11:03):
Go. I don't, I can't smoke cigars Bad for you. But I do smoke a lot of brisket. I'm gonna get some, but more. We'll have an F1 and brisket weekend. How about that?

Rich Campbell (02:11:11):
Hey, that'd be good. Some good fun.

Leo Laporte (02:11:13):
The jury's still out 'em, which is worse for you smoking cigarettes or eating brisket, but, you know, we'll, we'll lose that for another day.

Paul Thurrott (02:11:19):
Listen. But if you had to choose

Rich Campbell (02:11:21):
<Laugh>, pretty sure the jury

Paul Thurrott (02:11:22):
Not, you kinda do

Leo Laporte (02:11:23):
<Laugh>. It depends how much brisket you ate. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Whether you eat the fatty end or the dry end. Anyway, that is another story for another day. Richard, you're great. Thank you for going Aw, the extra mile to I know, do the show from Auckland to New Zealand. Incredible.

Rich Campbell (02:11:39):
It worked out very well, I think. And tomorrow I

Paul Thurrott (02:11:42):
Could never do this on route. That is amazing.

Leo Laporte (02:11:44):
Well, it did, it worked

Rich Campbell (02:11:45):
Out. Great Week will be at the farm. I'll try and stick a camera outside so you can see. We really, the farm is in the Shire Hills. Nice. So forth.

Leo Laporte (02:11:53):
So I hope all your doors are around.

Rich Campbell (02:11:57):
That's not true. But yeah,

Leo Laporte (02:11:59):
Richard is the star, the host, the man in charge of run as radio, run as He also Rocks. You'll find him on both those places. Keeps very busy. Always appreciated. And of course, our newest co-host people still come by and say, where did Mary Jo go? I know. So you would listen a lot. This

Paul Thurrott (02:12:18):
Must be, you must be big fans, huh?

Leo Laporte (02:12:20):
That's what I gets me. It's like I really missed Mary Jo. She's been gone for months.

Paul Thurrott (02:12:24):
That's like when people write me and they say, how come you, here's a new story you might be interested in. You're like, thanks for that link to The Verge. I wrote about this three days ago.

Leo Laporte (02:12:31):
<Laugh> don't send him links to the Verge kids. Mary Jo is doing great. I know you're in regular touch with her. We're gonna mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, we get her on for the next earnings learnings if we can. But she is, she's busy as an analyst now.

Paul Thurrott (02:12:45):
Yeah, we'll get her, we'll get

Leo Laporte (02:12:46):
Her on here. Yeah, it'd be great to have her back. But Richard is a very capable replacement. We're really thrilled to have Richard on the show. Thank you Richard, for joining the Yeah. The team, of course, Paul Throt started this show way back when I was, I was

Paul Thurrott (02:13:01):
Listening Windows XP was still the going concern when we started this

Leo Laporte (02:13:05):
Show. It's, it's mind boggling. We've grown old together, Paul, you and I. He, T H u r r o double And of course, his book, the Field Guide to Windows 11 It is, it is encapsulates the field guide to Windows 10. You get both for one price and soon a new book. He's working on it right now. Lean next time we speak, I guess it'll be in Mexico City. Yes. Yep. I'll be in Mexico. It'll be a truly international show all over the world. That should be fun. Yeah. we do Windows Weekly on Wednesdays 11:00 AM Pacific, 2:00 PM Eastern Time. If you are in Auckland, you will be glad to know it is 1900 UTC <laugh> on a Thursday. Well, you'd be less glad to know it's about seven o'clock in the morning for you or whatever time it must be.

Something like that. It <laugh>. He says it's five hours plus a day. I don't know what that, yeah, I don't know the math. That's a lot of hours. <Laugh>. dude, join us if you wanna watch live at Live dot twit tv watching live chat, live at IRC TWI tv. You don't need an IRC client, just a browser. Although if you have one, we actually, it's a real irc amazing real IRC chat room. We also have a Discord, a little something, a little more modern. A Discord chat room chief. The chief difference is the Discord chat room has animated gifts. But that's for the club members. If you're not a member, join and you can join us in the Discord after the fact on-demand versions of the show available at the website, twit tv slash ww for Windows Weekly. There's a Windows Weekly YouTube channel. And of course, you can always subscribe in your favorite podcast player and that way you'll get it the minute it's available. We thank you all for being here. All you winners and all you dozers. Have a great week. We'll see you next time on Windows Weekly. Bye-Bye.


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