Windows Weekly Episode 795 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word.
Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for windows weekly. Paul Thurrott here, Mary Joe Foley here. Ooh, we have a lot to talk about. It's official windows, 1122 H two. Coming soon to a computer near you. If it hasn't already, we'll talk about the ins, the outs, the pros, the cons. There's a whole bunch to talk about the windows 10 version coming in October. We have a surface event. The official date has been announced and Intel says, bye bye Pentium. Bye bye Cron. All of that next on wind is weekly podcasts you love

Mary Jo Foley (00:00:34):
From people you trust.

Mary Jo Foley (00:00:37):
This is,

Leo Laporte (00:00:45):
This is windows weekly with Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley episode 795 recorded Wednesday, September 21st, 2022. No at thank you. Dot com. This episode of windows weekly is brought to you by new Relic. Use the data platform made for the curious, right now you can get access to the whole new Relic platform and 100 gigabytes of data per month. Free forever. No credit card required. Sign up a new And by SecureWorks, are you ready for inevitable cyber threats, SecureWorks detects, evolving adversaries, and defends against them with a combination of security analytics and threat intelligence direct from their own counter threat unit. Visit to get a free trial of contagious, extended detection and response may not as XDR and by Melissa, make sure your customer contact data is up to date. Try Melissa's API in the developer portal. It's easy to log on, sign up and start playing in the API sandbox. 24 7 get started today with 1000 records cleaned for free and it's time for windows weekly. The show we cover the latest news from micro soft with Pauly thro.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:14):
Hello from

Leo Laporte (00:02:16):
Thera do com that's good. I like, and Mary Jo Foley from ZDI ZDNet hello, Mary Jo.

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:24):

Leo Laporte (00:02:27):
Good to see you both. I feel like I haven't been here in a long time.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:31):
That's because yesterday lasted a fricking eternity. Leo. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:02:35):
It did.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:36):
It was a long day.

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:37):
It was a

Leo Laporte (00:02:37):
Long day. Were you igniting or something? What were you doing? No,

Paul Thurrott (00:02:40):
We were 22 H touring.

Leo Laporte (00:02:43):
It's here.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:44):
It is here.

Leo Laporte (00:02:45):
It's here, boys and girls

Paul Thurrott (00:02:47):
After a lot of talk

Leo Laporte (00:02:49):
It's sort

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:49):
Of here.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:50):
It's finally. Yeah, mostly

Leo Laporte (00:02:52):
Here. It's the 20 touring of it's

Paul Thurrott (00:02:54):
The, I dunno.

Leo Laporte (00:02:55):

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:55):
No, I said sort of, because as you're gonna discuss, it's not here for

Leo Laporte (00:03:00):
Everyone. So I am using windows 11. Yeah. So what should I do? Tell me,

Paul Thurrott (00:03:04):
Sir. Oh, actually this is great. So go to windows update. Okay. Check for updates. This is actually a good test. You

Mary Jo Foley (00:03:09):
Gotta be a seeker. Be careful.

Leo Laporte (00:03:11):
Oh, you know the bad thing is that when I type update, now it goes to Dell update. I have to type windows update, which is very annoying. It says I'm up to date. Gosh, I wish I could show this, but something went wrong. <Laugh> with my H DM. I Don something

Mary Jo Foley (00:03:25):

Leo Laporte (00:03:26):
Went wrong. Something suddenly went wrong. Let me plug it in again.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:29):
I can get it to work. And I mean, check again, screen.

Leo Laporte (00:03:33):
Okay. Check last check at 3:35 AM. So maybe something's happened between now.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:38):
Oh, something's definitely happened. The problem's gonna be, you probably have other updates and those might take a little while, but that's okay. We can get those going.

Leo Laporte (00:03:46):
I did my updates yesterday and I didn't have any cuz patch Tuesday security intelligence update for defender. Well, I got that yesterday too. Nothing else? I get that every day. Do I have to, but see I'm not in the insider program doesnt

Mary Jo Foley (00:03:59):
Matter. No, you don't wanna be, this is the mainstream.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:02):
Well, hold on a sec. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is a Dell XBS you have, right?

Leo Laporte (00:04:06):
Yeah. XBS 15.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:06):
I thought you already upgraded this.

Leo Laporte (00:04:08):
Oh yeah. Maybe

Paul Thurrott (00:04:10):
Type hit the S button. Inver dot w I N V E R.

Leo Laporte (00:04:14):
Oh, I just go to the windows system I am in, I am in windows 11 hub 22 H two installed June 8th,

Paul Thurrott (00:04:31):
22, 6 20 22, 6 21 5 21 5 2. Okay. 5 21. Yeah, there you go. So that's oh, I got it. Bill Denver. Yeah, you have it.

Leo Laporte (00:04:34):
So yeah. So that

Paul Thurrott (00:04:36):

Leo Laporte (00:04:36):
This cuz I used to be in the insider program.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:39):
Yeah. I told you to do that thing where you oh,

Leo Laporte (00:04:41):
The release.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:42):
So I thought so. Yeah. 

Leo Laporte (00:04:45):
<Laugh> I suspect it's

Paul Thurrott (00:04:47):
So, okay, so this is something I was gonna share a little later, but I will say this build is over two months old. It's the thing that I based the book that I'm writing on, knowing it would be the final build. I had no qualms about that whatsoever. There's been a lot of nonsense between then and now and there's some more nonsense. We'll get to it, this okay.

Leo Laporte (00:05:09):

Paul Thurrott (00:05:10):

Leo Laporte (00:05:11):
But that that's good news. That means it is a it is a well baked update.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:18):
<Laugh> I, if I go that it's better baked update than the

Leo Laporte (00:05:21):
First one. I okay. I would say, okay,

Paul Thurrott (00:05:23):
I'm gonna try really hard. Not to be super cynical today. Because there were some good stuff in here.

Leo Laporte (00:05:28):
Paul's been looking at the TWITtters again. I think,

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:31):
I think so.

Leo Laporte (00:05:32):
<Laugh> so

Paul Thurrott (00:05:35):
There's enough cynicism in the world is all I'm saying.

Leo Laporte (00:05:37):
Let me just to clarify this I some, when I got this machine that came with windows 11, I believe that's. And you suggested that I enter the insider program in the release preview

Paul Thurrott (00:05:52):
In your usual version of the truth. I <laugh> what I said was it, it would be safe to go to 22 8. So if you wanted to. Okay. But that, that would be your decision and I didn't want you to come back later and

Leo Laporte (00:06:03):
Blame me and it was irrevocable. Yes.

Paul Thurrott (00:06:07):
Y yeah. Sort

Leo Laporte (00:06:08):

Paul Thurrott (00:06:09):
Yes. But the, the idea is you do that and then you unenroll from the insider program,

Leo Laporte (00:06:13):
Which I must have done because I think I'm in the

Paul Thurrott (00:06:15):
Normal you best have done. Yeah. You could go look to see if you wanna make

Leo Laporte (00:06:17):
Sure. Okay. Let me just get just so sure. Cause I would, I, I kind of wanna stay at this, this place. So I'll go to the advanced windows update options

Paul Thurrott (00:06:26):
Receive. No, no, go to no, sorry.

Leo Laporte (00:06:27):
Sorry. No, I'm wrong. No,

Paul Thurrott (00:06:28):
There's a, there's an option below that

Leo Laporte (00:06:30):
Called windows insider. The one with a little di it's people, but it's looks like diamonds. Oh, I am release preview. So I should undo that. Yes.

Paul Thurrott (00:06:38):
Yeah. There should be an option. Mine is out now. So, but there will be an option that says unenrolled when

Leo Laporte (00:06:43):
It says qued for UN enrollment, stop getting I'm already queued for UN enrollment,

Paul Thurrott (00:06:48):
Then you're all

Leo Laporte (00:06:48):
Set. Must have done that before

Paul Thurrott (00:06:50):
You. Well, you did it before. We must have done it when we talked about this back. And

Leo Laporte (00:06:53):
So I, I turned it on. Got, I think that's what happened is I got 11. We could go back and listen to the tapes, but I believe I got 11 H two.

Paul Thurrott (00:07:00):
We should, because I think we'd find that what I said was <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:07:03):
You said it, what could possibly go wrong? And I believed you so, and then I unenrolled, it's still not unenrolled, but I tried

Paul Thurrott (00:07:11):
The window, right? Yeah. So this is a question. When is this gonna happen? Right. Should happen. You know, you would've thought it would've happened, but it, it will happen. The

Leo Laporte (00:07:20):
You're also window. There is a button below it, which I will not press. It says unenroll this device immediately. And then in the fine print to stop getting insider preview builds on this device, you'll need to clean install the latest release of windows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. No, this option will erase all your data. Install a no, no, no. You're

Paul Thurrott (00:07:36):
You're you're okay. You're

Leo Laporte (00:07:37):
I'm I

Mary Jo Foley (00:07:38):
Just stay where you are. Stay where you

Leo Laporte (00:07:39):
Are. Stop. Don't move.

Paul Thurrott (00:07:40):
You are okay.

Leo Laporte (00:07:42):
Okay. Don't move. And it, I have the, I have the ni release the knee release.

Paul Thurrott (00:07:48):
That's right.

Leo Laporte (00:07:49):
Yep. Okay. So that's good. I'm gonna stick with

Paul Thurrott (00:07:51):
That. Got Mary Jo. And explain that if you're curious what that means,

Leo Laporte (00:07:53):
Is it sure for nightly

Paul Thurrott (00:07:55):
It's a no nickel short for a precious metal

Mary Jo Foley (00:07:57):
Nickel, nickel. Remember the periodic table elements, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:08:04):
So good. So this is where I, this is where is so everybody who's listening should be, if you want windows, if you're on windows 11, you would want to do this. That's the question. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:08:13):
I right. I think so. There's no, there's no reason not to.

Leo Laporte (00:08:18):
I've been honest is

Mary Jo Foley (00:08:19):
June. There's no reason not to doesn't but seems fine. You may not get it. That's what we should be very clear about.

Paul Thurrott (00:08:24):
Well, yeah, there are ways to force it. Of course like there are with all things, right. Right. You know, listen, if you're listening to this podcast, you, you probably already on it. Yeah. There's no, there's nothing stopping. We'll talk about some of the ways you can, you can do it. I, I, I will discuss later. What are the interesting blockers I ran into on a particular computer when I tried to force install the update just to see how it worked. And it's, it's humorous. <Laugh> how it stress

Mary Jo Foley (00:08:49):
To stop.

Paul Thurrott (00:08:49):
But it, you know, I it's it's a typical Microsoft release these days, you know, it's a lot of uncertainty and not exactly the results we were promised, but we'll get into that in a moment. Okay.

Leo Laporte (00:09:02):
Okay. So, but this is, this is now official 22 H two that's right, right. Is the official version. And as with all of these,

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:10):
The clock started ticking yesterday, the support clock

Paul Thurrott (00:09:13):
Support life cycle. That's right. And it's

Leo Laporte (00:09:15):
A staged rollout. So you don't, everybody doesn't get it at once, but we'll right.

Paul Thurrott (00:09:20):
Yes. Yes it is. That's right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:23):
Yeah. So I would say that if you wanna talk about the most confusing thing about this rollout, curious,

Paul Thurrott (00:09:30):
There's just one and there

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:31):
A few there is going to be a follow on rollout to this coming first in test in October. Like if you are someone who gets those patches on those off weeks, like CD weeks, you'll be able to check this out in October or wait until patch Tuesday in November, and you'll get this other bundle of features that it will include the infamous tabbed file Explorer and a few other random things. Yeah. Microsoft considers this part of windows 1122 H two. So it's almost like a two part rollout. Like yesterday was part one part two is a November part two. It's gonna be considered part of the original rollout, even though it's coming a month or two later

Paul Thurrott (00:10:21):
<Laugh>, which is, there are two obvious questions to that statement. I know, I know the answers. So ill pose these as hypotheticals. Actually. I don't know the answer to the first one, if that's the case. Why not just wait till October to release the whole damn thing? <Laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:32):
Yeah. You know what? I don't know. Why, why would

Paul Thurrott (00:10:33):
You do 90 something percent? Okay. That's the unknowable one. But the other one is a more interesting topic, which is that, well, we're getting a little out of our, we're getting out of, we

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:43):
Are, we're getting out of order here, but

Paul Thurrott (00:10:44):
So there's another, there's another story around this. We'll get to that. I guess the important thing for people listening to this who are individuals who are gonna install this on their computer is what she just said. Starting today, you may get this. If you want to force it, you can. But if you want, well, if you want the whole thing, you might have to wait till October or November, it would, it would be October for you folks where you can go install this, I guess will be a preview update.

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:08):

Paul Thurrott (00:11:08):
Maybe they call it and you'll get, like she said, file Explorer, tabs, and some other stuff which we'll get to why, you know, this was an interesting little rollout for us because we got some on the record commentary from Microsoft. And it was a lot of no comments in there. <Laugh> yeah. So we asked very specific questions and they gave very in specific answers. I don't know why they did

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:34):
On the record was great. They talked to us. It was great. They talked

Paul Thurrott (00:11:37):
To us. They will never do it again. I get mark my list. This is the end of that.

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:41):

Paul Thurrott (00:11:41):
Is the end. No, I don't know why they did this. I, it was a mistake. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:46):

Paul Thurrott (00:11:46):
Because we asked, you know, the questions that needed to be asked and they were not answered. Well, it's simple questions. Like what's the build number. You've known the build number since July. <Laugh> why can't you just tell, we know the build number. We're just doing this to get it on the record, but no, they wouldn't tell us that. Right. They they'd never explain why some now some later,

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:07):
Right? I dunno. So the build number, all they'll say, when you say, what is the build number of 20 tweet two, they'll say it's 22, 6 21, which we knew since like Paul said since the summer, but then some people who are downloading it are getting 2, 2, 6, 21 dot 5, 21. Some people are getting 2 26, 21 do 3, 8, 2, right? Like people are getting different. Yeah, there's a third one

Paul Thurrott (00:12:32):
Number. And that is, let me, I gotta bring up my notes. It is da,

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:36):
Which is

Paul Thurrott (00:12:36):
Very 1 0 5. Yeah, yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:40):

Paul Thurrott (00:12:42):

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:43):
Yeah. And they said to me though, here's what they said to me when I, I said, so why are there these different build numbers? Like seems like it should be one thing they said the final build number is subject to change. As we work to finalize the global rollout, starting September 20th,

Leo Laporte (00:13:00):
Today, Toronto, yesterday part.

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:02):
But okay. But you guys still must know what the, this is RTM, right? This is the RTM build, right? Like what is it? <Laugh> does this

Leo Laporte (00:13:11):
Matter on anybody? It's just

Paul Thurrott (00:13:12):
So you can write about it, right? Or, well, it does. Here's, here's where it matters. And this is, I have a theory that I'll relay later in the show about why they're doing this in this way. It, we know that they've been doing AB testing, so to speak in the beta channel of the insider program. We know that on one side people getting new features, some people aren't, we know how businesses are gonna be serviced going forward. I think this stuff is all tied to the fact that for people like us, we like to say windows version, whatever is build number, whatever period, full stop. That's the end of the conversation. Yeah. Unfortunately with windows 11, things have gotten very squishy. There are multiple build numbers, but the people who would need to know the difference between whether you have 22 H two with, or without say file Explorer, tabs, or some other features is maybe you're a developer and you're creating software that runs on top of windows.

Paul Thurrott (00:14:05):
And you need to know if there's certain features there. They did vaguely say on the call that there would be some, I could, should go look at my notes to see exactly what they said, but it was, there would be a mechanism for developers who needed to know the exact build number and they could determine features from that. And this ties into my theory about how they're gonna handle the way that businesses verse. Well, I say managed organizations are serviced mm-hmm <affirmative> versus how individuals who are running windows 11 home or pro are gonna be serviced going forward. But let's get to that. I'm sorry. We, we, we,

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:36):
We keep, yeah, let's talk about that. Actually. I know we're oh, you wanted

Paul Thurrott (00:14:39):

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:39):
Right now. Let's let's explain. Yeah. Let's explain what that is. If the best we can, because this is very complicated, unfortunately. So first

Paul Thurrott (00:14:47):
Of all, I'm sorry, sorry. Sorry to interrupt. Let's start with that support life cycles first, right? That's the, the most important thing. Yeah. So you, you, I think you mentioned this already, the, the support life cycle clock has started. What does that mean

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:57):
To different? So it means starting yesterday, if you're a home user or a pro user, unless you're on a pro managed device or is it no, actually it's all home in all pro I believe is 24 months of support and all enterprise and education 36 months. So it's a lot, it's a long period that this, this particular version is gonna be supported. And it began yesterday, the support clock started ticking yesterday.

Paul Thurrott (00:15:23):

Mary Jo Foley (00:15:24):

Paul Thurrott (00:15:25):
So the service differently. So the that's that's same thing

Mary Jo Foley (00:15:28):
They are, and, and this is new, right? The fact that if you're on enterprise or if you're on education, when Microsoft rolls out subsequent new features between these annual feature updates, it's gonna be off for you. It's gonna be off, turned off for you, which it pros are gonna love. Except there's one exception. The November update, the October, November update is gonna be turned on automatically because it's considered part of 11 22 H two. Right. and after that, any other subsequent individual feature updates that may come out, you know, the thing we were joking about moments those will be turned off by default until the next feature update, which will be 23 H two. Right. And then it will automatically all be turned on. Again,

Paul Thurrott (00:16:18):
You're a person and you're running home or pro and every month Microsoft releases updates. You'll get those every once in a while. We don't know. They wouldn't say they have no idea. Right. They

Mary Jo Foley (00:16:28):
Said that how often you'll get these

Paul Thurrott (00:16:30):
But they will be new feature, be new features as well. And you will get those. Right, right. They'll be able to preview them one month and then you'll just get them the next month, whether you want them or not. This is a side story. But I, I feel compelled to mention, at this point, Microsoft shows no interest whatsoever in popping up something like every other platform on earth and saying, Hey, your PC was just updated. Here's what's new. So for example, I think in October, November, it'd be nice to say, Hey, file Explorer just got better. Here's how here's we can go to learn more, you know, like promo S does or iOS or any everything.

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:00):
And, and edge does like, why can't they do this edge? Does it, I know

Paul Thurrott (00:17:04):
<Laugh> we asked they were, they

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:06):
Said this question.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:07):
They were like, no, we love to put ads in windows, but we do. We don't like doing that. So they didn't actually say that. But alright. So a managed business running home, I'm sorry. Running education or enterprise will not get any of these interim updates over the next year. But when presumably 23 H two ships in September, October of next year, those interim updates will be rolled into that release for them. And then there's no stopping it at that point, I guess,

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:37):
Actually. Right. They'll they'll I think they'll get them, but they'll be turned off by default. And so if your it manager says, I want you to have this, they can set a group policy to turn them on for you, even if, yeah. Even if you're in enterprise or education. Right. So they'll, and

Paul Thurrott (00:17:51):
They could do that. Right. They could do that now, too. Right? Yeah. So if there's an update in January and some businesses, no. We want our users to have this stuff. They can flip the switch and get them. Okay. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:18:00):

Paul Thurrott (00:18:00):
All right. So here's my, here's my theory. Now we know that this past year, past six months, whatever, for the first time, I believe Microsoft has been shipping two builds to the beta channel. Every time there's an update and they're off by like hundred or something. I don't know. The

Mary Jo Foley (00:18:15):
Like numbers don't matter, in fact

Paul Thurrott (00:18:16):
Happened today. Exactly. <laugh> and the way that they've differentiated those two things was that one set of those customers are users got the updates, whatever they were, including feature updates and the other one didn't. And it was like, we're just testing this. But now that you see what they're doing with business customers managed business customers. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I think you see what they were actually testing. I don't know why they couldn't have just said this by the way, six months ago. But my theory is that that what they were testing was what we're now seeing, which is

Mary Jo Foley (00:18:48):

Paul Thurrott (00:18:49):
In other words, I'm gonna make up numbers here. So we just said that the build number for 22 H two is 22, 6 21 dot 5 21 for most people. Okay. So let's pretend that it's something simpler, like dot 600 and a feature update comes out, little feature update, and they, they turn it up to 700 and then on the side there's gonna be one that's 800 and that one doesn't have the new features or however they're doing it, they're gonna change the build number somewhat mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think that's how we're gonna go forward. And that's why me too, there's this confusing mess of build numbers, because it doesn't really matter <laugh> you know, the prime, well, it does matter. But the, the primary part, the major part of the build number is, is gonna, should be the same for virtually everybody. Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> but the minor parts will be different. And, and those things will, could show some indication of whether you're getting these additional features or not, and will be what developers can use to test mm-hmm <affirmative> to see whether those features are available and thus whether they can support them in their applications.

Mary Jo Foley (00:19:46):
Yeah. I, I think your theory is dead. That's my theory. Yeah. I think you now are correct.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:52):
It's an educated guess, but I, again, I don't understand why Microsoft doesn't come out and just say this. Yeah. You know, it's the type of thing. Like I talked to Brad about this with S they run into this problem. Cause I know some people, like, I don't understand what the problems what's the big deal. Well start has customers that use their products and they're on different versions of windows. And this is actually a serious problem, especially when the products that you write in their case are things that mess with the shell. They need to know what's going on there. Yeah. And they need to know what the schedule is. They need to know when things are gonna change. How many different versions of things are out there in the world? Yeah. They have millions of customers. Like this is not a, this is not Bob and Phil over in a corner store or whatever this is, you know, they,

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:33):
They have

Paul Thurrott (00:20:34):
No, they literally have millions of customers. Yeah. 

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:37):
I understand, I,

Paul Thurrott (00:20:38):
I, this is a very basic form of clarity that doesn't hurt anyone to communicate and helps actual customers if they would just communicate it, but they don't.

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:48):
Yep. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:20:49):
Okay. There's that's

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:51):
Enough. Yeah. I think your theory's right. So yeah, this is new that they're gonna be doing like the, well, they told us in February, they were gonna be able to ship features whenever the heck they wanted, like they pano set a blog back in February and said, we're just gonna ship features whenever. Right? Like it's sometimes they're gonna be through the store. Sometimes they're gonna be through windows updates. Sometimes they're gonna be here, there, and now they've confirmed. Yep. This is what we're gonna do. And this is what we're gonna do next year, but we can't tell you how many we can't tell you when all we will tell you definitively is there will be a 23 H two and beyond every, every as long as windows 11 is in market, there's gonna be the annual fall feature update that will be cumulative and have all these other mini feature drops in it. Right. I,

Paul Thurrott (00:21:42):
I I've expressed my dismay with the you know, <laugh> the uncertainty of this, but yeah, honestly, I'm okay with the system for the most part. So any given version of windows 11 is in market actively for a year, they could add features to it throughout the year. And will, we don't know what the schedule is. It kind of doesn't matter, whatever. So there are two or three or one feature drop, whatever they call it. They do need names to these things, by the way, because using the term feature update for a major,

Mary Jo Foley (00:22:09):
It doesn't work well. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:22:11):
Yes. It's

Mary Jo Foley (00:22:11):
Bad. But moments, Paul, we're calling em moments. We're

Paul Thurrott (00:22:14):
Calling 'em. Am I gonna, I'm gonna struggle by using moments, but anyway and then you, you know, you, you roll that into the next major release. Yeah, absolutely fine. Opt out for businesses by default. Totally makes sense. That solves one big problem.

Mary Jo Foley (00:22:27):
Yes, it does.

Paul Thurrott (00:22:29):
It it's. I wish they were a little clearer about it. <Laugh> but it's honestly, yeah. It's,

Mary Jo Foley (00:22:34):
It's fine. I was glad. Yeah. Once I heard there was the opt out for businesses and education, I, I was less against this because if there weren't that would've been a nightmare. Right. Like the lack of predictability would've just been too much. Right. But, and if you're, and the fact that they can it's good. And you know, what, why make the windows team wait a year to give you new features? Like, if something really is ready, like tapped file Explorer must have just missed the window for inclusion. Like they must have just missed it. Right. And if you're that feature team, you're like, oh great. Now I gotta wait a year, but now you don't, now they can say no, we'll actually deliver it in a month. And that's awesome. Right. yep. I agree. So for consumers, I think this will be mostly good. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> for businesses. I think it'll be good. As long as people can turn it off. I think I, I just worry a little bit about small, I guess, SMBs small midsize businesses are the ones I worry about because I'm like, okay, I hope they have it admins. And if they don't, they're gonna get all these features. Like they could get these features turned on by default for themselves. Well, they will

Paul Thurrott (00:23:38):
Things will I showing

Mary Jo Foley (00:23:40):

Paul Thurrott (00:23:41):
If, if the computers are not managed in any way, and it's not just active director or Azure active director could be in tune, whatever it is. Yeah. Any MDM solution, most, really small businesses just ad hoc PCs. Yeah. Those things are gonna be updated like consumer they're, consumer PCs, so right. You'll be getting new updates. I, I mean, we don't know yet. Look, there could be a future feature drop. I keep calling it. I don't wanna call it feature update, but if moments, whatever, where they change the start menu. Right. Right. And yes, I mean, in, in some ways, those kinds of changes could require some training mm-hmm <affirmative>. But I think that feeling, look, I mean, really small businesses are agile. They just individuals they're really just people. I mean, this is what people are gonna see mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. It's you know, it's just something to know about, but it's hopefully not gonna be a big deal. I don't think it's gonna be a big,

Mary Jo Foley (00:24:32):
Big deal. I don't either. I think they're gonna be minor enough updates. Hopefully mm-hmm that people won't flip out about them.

Paul Thurrott (00:24:39):
We keep talking about this, you know, we get app updates every single day in our phones. Yeah. And you really probably don't pay too much attention to it, but you get updates right up app updates all the time on your windows computer right now. Yeah. they've expanded just like on mobile, the types of things they can update. I think we're at the point now where they can update anything, basically, like you said, different mechanisms it gets tricky. The, the file Explorer one is a little tricky, honestly, because it

Mary Jo Foley (00:25:04):
Is, yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:05):
It's not just tabs, although tabs adds its own major layer of new functionality, which is kind of interesting. Yeah. But they're also changing the navigation pain. Yeah. And the reason that's interesting is because the navigation pain was whatever it was in version 21 H one, they changed it in 22 H two and now they're actually changing it again when you get this tabs update and that's a lot of change to a very specific UI. I, I mm-hmm <affirmative>, I, I kind of wish that 22 H two had just shipped with the tabs and this new navigation change because that's a weird thing to do to people. So people today or yesterday would start getting this new layout and then in a month or two months, we'll get another new layout and this new terminology too, which is kind of weird. The layout is different.

Mary Jo Foley (00:25:55):
You know what we we've talked about this a little bit, but not everybody's getting this update right away. Right. Like when you check for updates, you may not get it because your hardware may hardware may not be deemed ready yet. Or there may be some incompatibility that they know about, but maybe that's by design. Right. Like they're like, okay, so most people aren't gonna get this by November. Right. And so it's gonna really trickle out more fair enough slowly. Right. And so by November, everybody will get it. And by then, you'll just get the tabs with file Explorer. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:26:25):
Yeah. So let's talk about that a little bit because yeah. I spent the better part of the afternoon yesterday in my bedroom with eight to 10 different computers at any time, your

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:36):
Friends, your PC

Paul Thurrott (00:26:37):
Finding updates, trying. Yeah. Cause one of the things I'm, I'm in, I'm actually in kind of a weird position where yeah. I review laptops. So I get a lot of these things into my house this year is this summer has been like some weird Bonanza, I think between June one and yesterday I have 13 computers I think have come through my house. Wow. Maybe more, something like that. Windows, computers, a couple of Chromebooks too, but I'm also writing a book. So a lot of the computers I use all the time, including the one I'm on right now, I had already upgraded to 22 H two because I needed to have the feature, you know, to, to write the book. Yeah. But I did have several computers that I could use to do see what it looked like. What, first of all, do I get this thing automatically? If I do, what does that look like? If I don't, what does that look like? And if I don't, can I force the update and what does that look like? So I, I, I, this is my whole afternoon is what I did. My wife came home from like the hairdresser or whatever. And she went to the bedroom. She's like, okay. And then she just walked. She's like, whatever, I don't know what's going on here.

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:35):
I don't know what's happening here, but yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:27:37):
Like I know it's computer something, something. So here, here's what I, this is, this is fascinating to me. I wish I had more data, but I had all, I should say too. The thing that skews, this is, these are all brand new computers, right? Yeah. So most people are running a computer that's one to five years old. So your results will vary. And the trick here is something Mary Jo just said, which is whether your computer qualifies for this update and that there's this notion of a blocking hold that will be put on your computer. If there's something like a driver that needs to be updated before you can get this thing or whatever it is, Microsoft is supposed to communicate this. But what I found was that most of the computers I tested did not update to the 22 H two and offered no verbiage whatsoever in windows update to indicate that something was coming. Like, you know, it's like, Hey windows, Eleven's on the way. Right. So that kind of message. I only saw that on one computer yesterday and this

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:35):
Morning. Yeah. I didn't get anything on surface laptop three, which is like three years old. I tried it today and I didn't even get a notification that 22 issue was out nothing.

Paul Thurrott (00:28:42):
Yeah. So surface laptop three is gotta be what, two, maybe even three years old,

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:46):
Three years old, I think three

Paul Thurrott (00:28:48):
Years old, three, that's probably, that's probably the most typical PC in this whole group, unfortunately, but the, the ones I'm testing are, are new. They're all new. So of them, of the ones I was able to test, three of them actually were offered this update and installed it. All of them went to the dot 5 21 build number mm-hmm <affirmative> it was a think pad Z 16, a think pad X 13 S which fascinatingly is a Qualcomm based PC running the latest Qualcomm snap, dragon chip set, and then an ACE aspire Vero, which is that kind of sustainable line. They have all I had, you know, you have to install whatever updates are sitting there waiting first, you reboot, you might have to reboot two times whatever it takes. And then they were offered the update. And I was like, oh, that's great.

Paul Thurrott (00:29:32):
But I had several that were not and it doesn't matter what those computers are, but most of them had no mention at all, that there was anything coming in the way of a new version, windows 11, one computer an elite book, dragonfly, the new version would a, what a G three probably HP actually has a message that says, windows 11 is coming. You're not ready yet, but it's coming. It's the type of thing we've seen in the past. And so I thought, well, that's kind of interesting. And it was a link where you say, learn, learn more. And it goes to a page. It explains what blocking holds are. And then it says, this is what's blocking it from installing it on this computer. And there was nothing there <laugh> like, there was no information

Mary Jo Foley (00:30:09):
At all.

Paul Thurrott (00:30:09):
So on that particular computer, I decided to try using the windows 11 installation assistant to force the upgrade. And there are different ways you can force upgrades, but I just ran that it actually ran for a long time. It downloaded updates. It did all this stuff. Yeah. And then it got to a point where it said, oh no, no, your, your computer does not qualify. It knew that there was a blocking hold and said, no, we're not gonna do it. <Laugh> so it just stopped it. Now, I don't think there's anything about windows 1122 H two, that would screw this computer up, but I'm not gonna do this, but I could download the ISO or what make a, you know, a setup key or whatever. And it would, it would install. There's no doubt about it. Like, but I, I didn't, I didn't do it. The other one worth mentioning, I'm sorry. Yep.

Mary Jo Foley (00:30:53):
I, I was just gonna tell you something I forgot to check this, but you know that release information, health page. Have you checked that yet for 22 issue? Cuz there's two things listed already. Oh,

Paul Thurrott (00:31:04):
I was gonna say I checked it yesterday and it wasn't 22 H two wasn't even there. <Laugh> so

Mary Jo Foley (00:31:08):
It's there now. So one is KB 5 0 1, 2, 1 7. Oh, might fail to install. And you might get you know, that zero X 800 F 0 9 2 2. That's famous mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. Good. Old, good. That good older security. It says under its security update for secure boot, DBX might fail to install. And then the other one has to do with Intel smart sound, technology, drivers and windows 11 there's compatibility issues. Those are the only two things listed so far.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:39):

Paul Thurrott (00:31:40):
I've never even heard that 20 smart sound. I'm not, I'm not sure what that is. Okay. I'll look at that. That's interesting. Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna look at this page again too on the actual computer because you know, look, it's, it's reasonable on day one that not everything is there, I guess. Right. Yeah, but I do find it odd that it said this link will tell you what's wrong. And then you went there and it

Mary Jo Foley (00:31:58):
Said nothing great. Nothing's wrong?

Paul Thurrott (00:32:00):

Mary Jo Foley (00:32:01):
Yeah. Nothing's wrong. Absolutely. Nothing is wrong. What are you talking

Paul Thurrott (00:32:04):
About? Nothing's wrong. I also did a manual install on an HPN V 16, that one <laugh> went to oh five when I was done. And I was like yeah, seriously. <Laugh> I also have a, a first generation surface book, which is a six gen Intel chip set. Right. Infamously. Remember all the problems. I used this for the book as it was one of three machines that I force updated on unsupported hardware to see what that looked like. Yep. So that one was that one I didn't do yesterday, but I just, I, I went back to look at that cuz I'm not sure I ever looked at the build number and the build number on that one is 22, 6 21, 3 8 2 <laugh> I'm like, I don't know. Oh wow. I used exactly the same setup media as I used everywhere else. And for some reason on that hardware it's on dot 3, 8 2. And I, I, yeah. And I don't know what that's

Mary Jo Foley (00:32:57):
All about. So you're making me remember something else we should make sure to mention mm-hmm <affirmative> Microsoft has not changed the requirements for 22 H two at all for hardware, right? Like if you have something where the CPU and TPU don't meet the bar, it's still not gonna meet the bar. Now with 22 H two, they not relax it H

Leo Laporte (00:33:16):
Can still Intel or, and TPU two, 2.0, still required.

Mary Jo Foley (00:33:21):
Yeah. Still, still holding. And if you are somebody who is willing to take the risk and install it and not be quote unquote supported by Microsoft, you can still do that with this release too. They didn't take that loophole away. Yeah. That's interesting. That's still there and it's still a free update. There's no end in sight to when this is no longer gonna be a free update it's free and you can get it like whether you're on 10 or 11, it's

Paul Thurrott (00:33:43):
Free. And we've liken this in the past to the you know, the product key thing from windows seven and eight, where you have a pro a retail product key and it would just activate on windows 10, still activates on windows 11, by the way as well. It's it's like, well, you know, we're probably gonna get rid of that. And it's like, eh, yeah. I'm probably not really gonna get rid of that.

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:00):
That <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:34:02):
I can't find, oh yes, I did find this. So by the way, so remember last year, the big con I thought the big controversy was gonna be that the home edition of windows 11 required a Microsoft account, but the big that's because they didn't, they weren't honest about the hardware requirements. The big deal was the TPM 2.0 and the eighth gen or newer Intel. And then, you know, whatever on AMD and Qualcomm, everyone was freaking out. And as I've discussed, I think in the past, and as I've written in the book and I've done multiple times, you can install windows 11 on unsupported hardware. And I, and I've kind of made the argument that, you know, sixth, seventh generation Intel, I honestly with TPM 1.2 or 2.0, usually 2.0, there's no reason this thing can't be as secure as on supported hardware. Right. Just doesn't make sense.

Paul Thurrott (00:34:49):
But there's a, I'm not gonna be able to explain this very well. I'm just gonna kind of read part of this, but I believe in 22 H two, they've implemented some security features and they specifically say that this requires an eighth gen Intel processor, a newer, and this might explain the requirements. Even though last year, this was not in place. How does it explain, explain it's a hypervisor protected code integrity feature that runs kernel mode integrity inside a secure VBS environment instead of the main windows kernel, helping to prevent a attack, attempt to modify kernel code, like, excuse me, I'm getting choked up. I'm so happy about so like drivers and this makes

Leo Laporte (00:35:31):
Sense. Cause they really did say it was security related, right. That

Mary Jo Foley (00:35:36):
They did, but they never had Quebec it up last year.

Paul Thurrott (00:35:38):
Yeah. Right. When we looked at the, what they were saying, we're like, well, this applies to seventh gen two. What, why, why the, why the line in the sand? I think we might in 22 H two be seeing the reason and one of the things that is true and will become more and more true, true over to time is that windows 11 windows words are hard. Windows 11 is and will be even more so secure than windows 10 semi arbitrarily because the new advances are gonna go just into windows 11, but hardware back security is a far more powerful solution than just software based security. Right? So mm-hmm, <affirmative> when you have the backing of modern hardware, you can do things that's not possible just for software. So the combination of new computer hardware and chip sets with new versions of windows is gonna make those things more secure in the future. So I think we're seeing that step a little bit in 22 H two.

Leo Laporte (00:36:31):
Really interesting. That makes sense. I think it will. It's also why they won't support it. It's not maybe even that they won't give you updates, but look, we can't promise your security because a key security element requires eighth jam

Paul Thurrott (00:36:42):
Because we've written the software to understand that that thing's there. Yeah. It's not gonna be there on your computer. We don't, we're not gonna guarantee

Leo Laporte (00:36:50):
What's can't make any guarantees. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:36:52):
That's a theory. I that's, I, my

Leo Laporte (00:36:55):

Mary Jo Foley (00:36:55):
Lot of, I think that's, it does make sense. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:36:57):
Yep. Hey, I need to take a little break. We've got lots more to talk about with 22 H two yeah. Of several pages worth <laugh> that's nice. Stay tuned. It was a long day. <Laugh> yeah. Now I understand what you meant when you said it was a long day. Holy come moly. Yeah. Wow. well, let's pause. So that you can, you know, gather your thoughts. As I mentioned something, that's going to be very important to you devs out there. I know devs. I love devs. You know, I'm a honorary dev and I think something kind of is typical of all devs. We are curious people. We like the latest tech, right? We wanna explore it. We actually read the documentation cuz we wanna know not only how things work, but why they work. We find out things like, you know, hypervisor protected.

Leo Laporte (00:37:49):
Well, we look deep into that and that's why so many engineers turn into new Relic. This episode of windows weekly is brought to you by new Relic. New Relic gives you data about what you build shows. What's really happening in your software life cycle, the whole stack. It's a single place to see data from the whole stack. So you don't have to look at AIF 16 different tools and, and make those corrections manually. No more silos. I wanna see it all in one place. And here's the best part. New Relic pinpoints the issue down to the line of code. So you know why the problems are happening and you can fix 'em quickly, no wonder dev and ops teams from door dash and GitHub and epic games. And more than 14,000 other companies use new Relic to debug and improve their software. When teams come together around data, it lets you triage problems.

Leo Laporte (00:38:37):
You're confident in your decisions because you're using data, not opinions. You've got the facts in front of you, which also reduces the time needed to implement. You know, the fix use the data platform made for you made for the curious right now, and I love this. You can get access to the whole new Relic platform, plus a hundred gigabytes of data a month free forever. They know you're gonna love it. No credit card required. Sign up new, w R E L I You gotta have this. You really do new We think of so much for their support of windows weekly and now strongly we return to our conversation. I've completely lost track. Have you, did you talk about upgrading your your, oh wait a minute. You wanna do the build? Oh, wait a minute. How do install man? Holy

Paul Thurrott (00:39:33):
Cow. We kind, we, we kind of moved around a lot here.

Leo Laporte (00:39:35):
I let you edit the next.

Mary Jo Foley (00:39:36):
We like skipping around. Yes.

Paul Thurrott (00:39:37):
Yeah. <Laugh> so we, we talked about all the upgraded PCs. We talked about some of the, so some of the other features coming in October, November are some updates to the photos app, which I, I don't know why that would be tied to a Okta, whatever. There's a new task bar overflow experience coming nearby share, which is a great feature. I don't think a lot of people know about is getting some improvements. And, and though this is not tied to this October, November update, the, the other bit of this is remember the Android app support in windows 11. That was mm-hmm, <affirmative> such a big deal last June when they announced it. And then it has been in preview only for part of the time that windows 11 has been in the market and has been underwhelming to say the least you know, 50 something apps and games.

Paul Thurrott (00:40:19):
Most of them crap. There is, I gotta, like, I just gonna look at the number cuz every, I, I, I, I say the number in my, you know, and it doesn't make sense to my brain. There's at best dozens of apps and games. Now there were going to be over 20,000 Android apps and games within weeks. Microsoft says, yeah. So roughly the same timeframe as this October, November update and its availability will expand to 31 new countries. I don't, I it's a very short small number of countries today. I know it's us and maybe one or two others, I think, but it's, it's going to, you know, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and Japan, UK, et cetera, et cetera. So lots more. I I'm having a hard time reconciling <laugh>, you know, 50 something apps with 20,000. Hopefully not the same level of quality <laugh> that we've seen so far, but you couldn't find any gems and 50, I mean, how what's 20,000 going?

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:18):
How many apps are there in the, in the Amazon app store? That's what I was trying to determine.

Paul Thurrott (00:41:23):
It's 50 something. It's

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:25):
54 50 something total

Paul Thurrott (00:41:25):
50. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's not, it's not a lot.

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:28):
And they're mostly games, right? Like,

Paul Thurrott (00:41:31):
And they're mostly like second rate. Yeah. Pathetic kind of games. Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:36):

Paul Thurrott (00:41:36):
Do I have it on here? No, I don't have it on no, I don't have it installed. Sorry. yeah. There's not a lot of interest for sure. 

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:44):

Paul Thurrott (00:41:45):
And Washington post is in there off the top of Kindle on

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:48):
The bowl. Kindle is the good one, right? The one everyone talks about, but Kindle's in there yet. That's good. Yep. You know? Yep. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:41:56):

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:56):
You know what, one other thing we didn't mention that Leo may hear about on the radio show is okay. As of 22 H two, in addition to requiring home users to have Microsoft account and, and internet connection, right. Pro users also have to do it now too. Not just home.

Leo Laporte (00:42:14):
Oh, I'll definitely hear about that.

Paul Thurrott (00:42:16):
Well, let me, let me give you the impromptu tip to get around this.

Leo Laporte (00:42:20):
Okay. So we'll save that on tip, but, but yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:42:22):
I'll give it to you right now. It's not my tip I'll to you now. It's easy. It's easy enough. I, this is in an an episode of hands on windows. I don't know if it's yet or not, but there's different ways you can bypass the limitations. The, my favorite is restrictions.

Leo Laporte (00:42:37):
Know it. Thank you. Dot com. That's

Paul Thurrott (00:42:39):
It? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:42:39):
That's that's my

Paul Thurrott (00:42:40):
<Laugh> that's. It's not just you. It's easy to remember. And it's the best way. So when I ask you for Microsoft account, know it, thank you. Dot com. I mean, someday this is gonna stop, right? I

Leo Laporte (00:42:50):
Think Microsoft is allowing it because, right.

Paul Thurrott (00:42:53):
I, yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:42:54):
It's a, it's a right now it's, it's a dummy Microsoft account. If you've use that.

Paul Thurrott (00:42:57):
Well, someone created it and what they did was they, they, they <laugh>, they logged in unsuccessfully so many con times the account got frozen. So now you can't U so now it, it break, it actually breaks the they're like, you can't use this just all, they just, just use the local account and then you Microsoft, they

Leo Laporte (00:43:13):
Just give up, they say, okay, fine. That's what you

Paul Thurrott (00:43:15):
Want. It's kind of it's, it's funny how it works. Yeah. So good. That's the best way.

Leo Laporte (00:43:19):
What's the shift plus F 10 method, Keith five, 12 likes

Paul Thurrott (00:43:22):
That. So that brings up that's to disable the network requirement. So what that does is it brings up a command line, you know, window, and you can type in a command that turns off the part of set up the requires it to have an internet connection. I actually don't recommend that because that disables setup from downloading all the updates that occurring setup, and when you get into the desktop, you're missing a bunch of stuff. It's what rufuss uses. It's one of the reasons I don't like using rufuss for this, right. It's better just to

Leo Laporte (00:43:49):

Paul Thurrott (00:43:49):
Connect to the internet and bypass MSA if that's, and by the way, I mean, 99% of people should not bypass. <Laugh> say either, but if you want to or have to that's, that's the best one

Leo Laporte (00:43:58):
P you know, it's one of those privacy things, which just bugs people. But honestly, there's a real benefit to having Microsoft, you know, manage this whole thing. You get the, you get syncs over when, you know, Michael just got a new gaming PC. And I said use your Microsoft account when you log in, cuz all of the stuff will come over from your old PC.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:19):
Well, I, I, if you, to me, the, well, to me, it's about OneDrive sync is the big one OneDrive.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:25):
Plus, because I use OneDrive, plus

Leo Laporte (00:44:27):
If you forget your password, there's a recovery process. I'll tell you, you, I get more calls on the radio show about that than anything else. You know, I forgot my windows best.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:36):
The other thing, this doesn't maybe get discussed enough, but you know, the, the Microsoft store, what used to be called the window store started off as a kind of an embarrassment. It's gotten a lot better over time. It's still room for improvement, of course, but, and it's not everything. So for example, when I don't remember when at one point Terry Myers announced that Adobe premier elements and Photoshop elements were coming to the store and Photoshop elements did come to the store, but premier never did. I wish to God, it would because you Adobe has really strict licensing or authorization roles or whatever. So if you put it on one or two computers you're done. And if you forget to, if you like wipe out the PC and forget to sign out of it, you can't sign in again on a new computer, you have to call 'em and beg them to, you know, flip the switch.

Paul Thurrott (00:45:20):
I've had to do that multiple times. It's a pain in the butt, but if you go through the store, if you buy the thing in the store, you're good to go. You can put it on as many computers as you want. You don't have to worry about signing out of it or signing into it's you're all set. So there's certain apps that I, I have acquired through the store and I Al and going forward, I will, if I have the choice, if it's something I'm paying for, I will always get at the store because of those licensing niceties. It's such a, it makes such a huge difference.

Leo Laporte (00:45:47):
Here's a interesting little tidbit Citibank owns thank you. Dot com. According to out city. Oh wow. <Laugh> that's

Paul Thurrott (00:45:54):

Leo Laporte (00:45:55):
<Laugh> it makes sense. Somebody would own thank you.

Paul Thurrott (00:45:57):
It does make sense. Yeah. Right, right, right.

Leo Laporte (00:45:59):
So maybe we're just all giving. Well,

Paul Thurrott (00:46:02):
We should, it was probably, it could be an employee of that company. Remember you can turn any domain or email address, whatever the domain is into a Microsoft account. Right, right. It doesn't have to be or whatever it could be. You know, you own a domain. You

Leo Laporte (00:46:15):
Use any email for that. So actually that would be, if you were an it director at a, you know, you had a lot of windows installs, you could just do that, make up a big account. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> burn it in, burn it out and then use your own, you know,

Paul Thurrott (00:46:28):
By the way, if this, I keep telling people this, but if this know it, thank you. Dot com thing, fail someday. And I think it will you just sign it with a Microsoft,

Leo Laporte (00:46:37):
Anything <laugh> or make a dummy in

Paul Thurrott (00:46:38):
No, just, yeah. Just make a dummy account, sign in, create a, when you're in there, create a local account, make it an administrator. Yeah. Sign into that account and delete the Microsoft. I

Leo Laporte (00:46:46):
Don't think there's anything wrong with doing that. It, to be honest takes

Paul Thurrott (00:46:49):
Two minutes extra, but it's, it will, you know, it does the, I

Leo Laporte (00:46:51):
Think it's more, you know, it's one of those, but I object, you know, to the principle it's on the principle of the matter mm-hmm <affirmative> and I,

Paul Thurrott (00:46:59):

Leo Laporte (00:47:00):
That's gonna be home and pro now. Wow, interesting. Yep. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:47:03):
Yeah. Yep. I mean, technically it's, I don't know if you had enterprise or education, if you could create a local account. I mean, you still, you still signing into something. I mean, in, in that case, you're usually signing into an Azure active directory account, but yeah. You're most people are gonna be signing into an account. Yep.

Leo Laporte (00:47:22):
I mean, that's just, mm-hmm,

Paul Thurrott (00:47:24):
<Affirmative> an online account as Microsoft would call it. Okay. Okay. Let's see. Moving on. <Laugh> that's right. So we talked about managed businesses, not getting post 22 H two interim updates, except for the October one. Hilarious. we didn't talk about, well, you go friendly update. I know. So I hate talking about stuff like this. All right. So, so I

Mary Jo Foley (00:47:49):
Noticed you skipped over

Paul Thurrott (00:47:50):
It. <Laugh> yeah. Alright. So Microsoft occasionally will say, Hey, we made this big change and now windows updates a lot faster than it used to be. And you're like, really, you know, like one of the things that's interesting about this release, so not unique to this release, this is something they had done previously. And I don't remember when this started, but if you actually get prompted to install a new version of windows from windows update, it works differently than every other way that you install windows. It's really interesting. Like it will download the update and install most of it while you're sitting there using windows, which makes sense because you're using windows, right? The idea is we don't want your downtime to be that great because windows actually still takes between an hour, maybe an hour and 20 minutes to install like a new version, despite all the performance improvements.

Paul Thurrott (00:48:38):
Yeah. But the way you get around that is you fake it. <Laugh> right. So you do everything while the person is using the computer and then you say, Hey, we gotta reboot. And instead of doing all that stuff that normally does then and well in Softline, it's already all happened. So it just moves some stuff around and you reboot and it's actually pretty quick. So it seems like it was quick, but the truth is it was sitting there for an hour while you were using the computer mm-hmm <affirmative> so that's part, that's the performance bit <laugh> although he, they they've changed. They've reduced the down line size, blah, blah, blah whatever I listen, I've installed this on,

Mary Jo Foley (00:49:09):
You know, what was so crazy to me about this whole thing? It's not an enable, it's not an enablement package, right? No, it's a full install. It's a full install.

Paul Thurrott (00:49:16):
Yep. Yep.

Mary Jo Foley (00:49:17):
I was surprised which by the way, I

Paul Thurrott (00:49:19):
<Laugh>, that was another thing we asked and they wouldn't tell us,

Mary Jo Foley (00:49:21):
Remember, I know I said, wait a minute, like there aren't that many new features in this. I know there are some, but like it's the bigger ones. Yeah. Or coming. Yeah. And I said, so why it wasn't this an enablement package? And they said, we have no comment. Right. And yep. So I, I have been asking around and some people think it's because they changed some things in the task bar that, you know, like that actually require it to be a full install. I don't know. Like I saw some people speculating about setup dot exc, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, what, what does that have to do with this? And then I also saw people saying it might be because of how they're gonna be servicing it. Like some features turned off, some features turned on going for,

Paul Thurrott (00:50:02):
I think you're something

Mary Jo Foley (00:50:03):
Makes the most sense. Right. <laugh> so

Paul Thurrott (00:50:05):
Here's yeah. My theory, all I have is theory, cuz again, Microsoft will, Microsoft will never come out and speak clearly about any of this stuff. But my guess is, like I said, over the summer, lots of different updates, lots of different version numbers, lots of whatever. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> not everyone is coming from the same place when they go to this thing. Sure. That's right. A lot of them are gonna be windows 10 users. Right. So mm-hmm <affirmative> I think they had to make it a full update, full feature because of the sheer number of possibilities. Right. If everyone was on windows 11, version 21 H two build whatever and we're all on. Exactly. That one thing, this could be an enabling package. There's no doubt about it. Be quick and easy. Maybe that's my theory. I, you know, I think that's, I think what you, I think, I think you alluded to it anyway, the eco-friendly thing is nonsense. Leo and I will not discuss it. No, it's just there, you know, it's it's

Mary Jo Foley (00:50:54):
Like when you carbon emissions, blah, blah blah. There we go.

Paul Thurrott (00:50:57):
Yeah. Data center. We, we don't yeah. We're not burping up as much energy when we deliver updates anymore. Plus by delivering a smaller update, we're impacting the environment less nonsense. Nonsense. Can we please have a green leaf? We can stick in windows update because we're awesome thing. I don't know. Yeah. It's ridiculous. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:16):
The sentiment is good, but it's like the sentiment just words

Paul Thurrott (00:51:20):

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:21):
It's words. Okay. Yeah. Just words. But the biggest words we haven't talked about, you know? Yes.

Paul Thurrott (00:51:28):

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:29):
Biggest words, it's the part of the conversation we had with the Microsoft spokespeople about, so what happens after windows 1122 H two, like, okay. We already talked about these minor feature updates are gonna come. And the main question everyone had is, okay, first, are there, are you gonna continue with feature updates in the second half of the year going for, they said yes. Then somebody came on the call and said, what about windows 12? Because of course somebody's gotta ask that question. Right?

Paul Thurrott (00:51:57):
Sure. I

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:58):
Feel comfortable

Paul Thurrott (00:51:59):
Saying that someone was Zach <laugh> right?

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:01):
No, it wasn't. I don't think it was. I

Paul Thurrott (00:52:03):
Wasn't. I thought it wasn't. I'm pretty sure what was Zach on my call. Okay. Okay. I thought, I thought it was okay. No. Anyway, Zach was the guy, but to give him crap

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:11):
Wrote the story. Zach Bowden. Yep. Yep. Zach Bowden, windows central mm-hmm <affirmative> said, you know, I think they're on every three year cadence now and the next major update will be in 2024. Zach never said it would be called windows 12, but a lot of people jumped to that conclusion. That's gonna be windows 12. Right? Okay. There you go. There you go. Yep. And so somebody on the call,

Paul Thurrott (00:52:30):
If you don't mind, please, please use the exact quote if you can. Okay. Of what we were

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:35):
Talking. Well, I'll use the quote that I put in my story. Chrysler, somebody said, what about windows 12? And they said Aaron Woodman, vice president of windows marketing said, I have not heard anyone internally saying we are on a three year cadence. Our intention is to continue with annual updates to windows 11. So when I wrote about this, I said, okay, that's nice that he said this. But I don't believe that's exactly true. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:53:05):
Right. But he's but Mary Jo, he's never heard anyone talking about that. I mean the, is there a few that's I mean, how, how can you disprove that? He has never heard of,

Mary Jo Foley (00:53:13):
And I can't disprove it. I can't disprove it, but there's a lot of when, as we know, from our years of covering Microsoft, <laugh>, there's a way to answer a question where you're not technically lying, but you're leaving yourself so much wiggle room. Right. So he could say, I've never heard anyone say that. Okay. Maybe he's never heard anyone say it, but he could have read it in a piece of documentation or somebody else could said

Paul Thurrott (00:53:34):
It, but he didn't, he could authored the paper that it instructed his underlings, that this is what we're doing and

Mary Jo Foley (00:53:39):
That, so

Paul Thurrott (00:53:41):
Wes, his job title again for you vice

Mary Jo Foley (00:53:43):
Vice vice vice president of marketing for windows <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:53:45):
Yes. Yeah. Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (00:53:46):
Yeah. Okay. So I'm just gonna say, I'm speaking for you here. We believe that there is likely a major feature update to windows coming in 2024. We don't even know if between now and then there will be anything that's considered a major update. We don't know if they'll do enable impact just we don't know any of that. Right. but I, I believe that report from Zach was not just brought out of thin air. He has good sources. I believe, I believe somebody inside the windows, org is talking about this.

Paul Thurrott (00:54:17):
<Laugh> that's, that's why I wanted to. Someone said, that's why I highlighted Zach. Zach is a reliable source of information. He has good sources that he, you know, he relies on when he writes things. This, he did not pull this out of thin air. No. So Aaron May not have, have heard anyone talking about this <laugh> right. But

Mary Jo Foley (00:54:32):

Paul Thurrott (00:54:33):
And, and

Mary Jo Foley (00:54:33):

Paul Thurrott (00:54:33):
Discussion has been taking place

Mary Jo Foley (00:54:35):
<Laugh> it was funny when I heard the person ask the question, I'm like, no, don't say windows 12, cuz then they can totally deny that. Right. Cuz they, the branding is the last thing they decide. They may call it 12. They may call 11 five. They may call it 13. They may call it 14. We don't know. Right? Like don't say that say, is there gonna be a major release of windows that is not windows 11 in 20, 24? That's the way you pin it down a little more if you're asking the question, but yeah. Yeah. I don't think that we get a, would've gotten much of a different answer. The official answer is we're only dealing with windows 11 and we have nothing to say about the future. Like they were that's the answer. Right, right.

Paul Thurrott (00:55:09):
Pretty much. And actually you reminded me with regards to how a feature update and by future update, I mean the annual second half of the year update, the big one is delivered. Yeah. I think it was John cable who said it would be, it could vary based on the makeup of the updates, you know, depending on the <affirmative> I think he even said volume. Yeah. Of updates. So it's possible, for example, at 23 H two could be a, an enablement package or it could be, you know, something smaller, right? This one's a big one. So it's gonna, no matter how you choose to install it, you're gonna need some time. Yeah. That's

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:49):
Microsoft. I could tell you this, Microsoft inside the company, they're getting people to install it because you know, they want people inside the company to be using it also. And they've been telling them to set aside 90 minutes for the first part of the install. Sure. And 20 minutes for the second part of the install, I guess that's after the reboot. So they're giving them the worst case scenario, but it like, it is a big install. Like even though they've reduced the size and they're carbon emissions, blah, blah, blah, whatever, like it's big. Right. It's it's not a small one. <Laugh> right. I don't know why there's not a lot in there. Yeah. It's gotta be the plumbing. Yeah. It's gotta be the plumbing in here. That's making this more of a big deal. Yeah. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:56:31):
I there's a complexity to what we talk about this a lot. You know, the insider program is very complex. There's lots of builds floating around now and different directions and they're not tied to anything in particular and we don't know what's going on. I mean, I think that has impacted the product. You know, me

Mary Jo Foley (00:56:46):

Paul Thurrott (00:56:47):
I think that, I think that's, I think that's what we're saying. So,

Mary Jo Foley (00:56:51):
So we haven't talked about windows 10. We have to talk about windows 10. Oh

Leo Laporte (00:56:54):
What's that windows? What?

Mary Jo Foley (00:56:55):
No, no. Because most people who are running windows are still on windows 10. They won't tell us how many right. Of those people are running windows 10 versus 11. But well, if you are running windows 10, you will get your 22 H two update next month in October. That's all we know. We don't know what's in it. We don't know if it's an enablement package. We don't know anything. They won't tell us a thing, except that it's coming in October.

Leo Laporte (00:57:20):
<Laugh> interesting.

Paul Thurrott (00:57:22):
Yeah. Whenever they first revealed that there would be one which was humorous, cuz they were already testing builds of it, you know, whatever. But I, I, I, and I think many others went back to whatever PR handler mentioned that this was coming and said, okay, but what's in it. Like

Mary Jo Foley (00:57:38):

Paul Thurrott (00:57:39):
He's silly boy. Well, we'll discuss that

Mary Jo Foley (00:57:41):
Later. <Laugh> what a,

Paul Thurrott (00:57:43):
What a silly question. And yeah, it's arriving next month and we still have no idea. What's

Mary Jo Foley (00:57:48):

Paul Thurrott (00:57:49):
My guess is it's nothing or next to nothing. If you look at same, whatever, a windows 10 version 21 H two was the handful of obscure features that impact almost nobody it's gonna be. So they're not

Leo Laporte (00:57:59):
Gonna strive for feature parody with windows

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:01):
11. No, no,

Paul Thurrott (00:58:02):
No. The

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:03):
Driving very few things. Right. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because they want, they want people to have a yeah. They want you to have an incentive to go to 11. Yeah. And if they bring everything back to 10, it's like why? I mean, you can stay on windows 10 until 2025 and be fully supported by Microsoft. So you don't have to rush and get off windows 10. You know,

Leo Laporte (00:58:22):
Maybe this security thing though is a reason to go to 11. Right. That's we don't

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:26):
Know yet. Yeah. I'm sure they're gonna sell it that way. Have that, that way.

Paul Thurrott (00:58:30):
I have a, my, the tip today is about one of the big new security features that's available both to individuals and businesses. It, this, it, this stuff feels like kind of an early days kind of a thing. So obviously we have like anti malware, anti fishing, anti, you know, virus and whatever else built into windows and yep. Microsoft has defender branded products that kind of enhance that and work across devices and networks and yada yada yada. But I, I think, well, but this notion of like on device, you know, Microsoft Pluton security chip sets and security backed or I'm sorry, hardware backed security, I think is still early days. So we're seeing some of it in 22 H two. I, I, you know, I, I, I think future chip sets are gonna enhance that even further. I think this just continues, but this is, you know, for people that care about like like a retro computing or whatever, you, you reach a point where there are gonna be versions of windows that are no longer like available <laugh> to use anywhere. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> windows

Leo Laporte (00:59:33):
10 is now retro computing. You're very hear first. Well, no,

Paul Thurrott (00:59:36):
But it will be, I mean, like in other words well, or, you know, I want to, you know, people are gonna wanna relive this time, period. I guess. I don't know why, but no,

Leo Laporte (00:59:45):
They do it with 95. Sure. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:59:47):
Yeah. They do it exactly. Right. So, you know, people wanna play early dos games or, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever. I'm curious, like how the computers of the future gonna be like these weird secure islands, you know, I don't know if I, I wonder about backward capabilities. We'll see, we'll see what happens, but there they're a little, we'll get to this in the tip, but it's some, this is like a one way dead end road. It's it's kind of I don't know. We'll see what happens.

Leo Laporte (01:00:16):
Well, I'll tell you what's gonna happen right now. We are gonna take a little break RA. And when we come back new CFAI, we're very excited, but first a word from secure works. I know you wanna be secure. Secure works is a leader in cybersecurity. Building solutions for security experts by security experts, secure works, offers superior threat detection and rapid incident response all while making sure that customers are never locked into a single vendor. That's nice SecureWorks offers an open extended detection and response platform. You've probably heard about it. You certainly heard me talking about contagious X, D R, and I'll tell you why. In 2022 it's estimated cyber crime will cost the world 7 trillion with a tea by 2025. That figure will probably grow to as much as 10 and a half trillion. Last year, ransomware totaled 20 billion in damages attacks occurred every 11 seconds by 2031 ransomware projected a cost oh 265 billion a year.

Leo Laporte (01:01:31):
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Leo Laporte (01:02:40):
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Paul Thurrott (01:04:55):
This just in

Leo Laporte (01:04:57):
Uhoh. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (01:04:57):
So we mentioned earlier that there was an updated photos app coming in that October, November update I don't know why they didn't announce this as part of the new dev bill today, but separately, Microsoft has just revealed that the new photos app is now available well is now starting to roll out to people in the the dev channel. If you're in the insider program it's, you know, Microsoft, so not everyone's gonna get it, blah, blah, blah. But anyway, what it, what it looks like is sort of what I expected, which is a simplified version of the app that gets rid of the legacy video editor that's built into it because now they have clip champ, right? So if you run photo the photos app in windows 11 today, you'll see ads for clip champ everywhere. They're just gonna get rid of the legacy version. So the legacy video editor, I should say, if you are a fan of this thing, for some reason, it will still be available in the store, but this new photos app will replace the existing photos app in windows 11 in a month or two. Nice. So yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:05:58):
Breaking news. You heard it here first

Paul Thurrott (01:06:02):

Leo Laporte (01:06:03):
So excited. <Laugh> actually, I'm more excited about the fall surface launch day. We're starting to hear rumors about news surfaces. Me too. Yeah. Tell me about that.

Mary Jo Foley (01:06:12):
Yeah. So today the walking cat, our friend posted a link and he said, Hey, if you go to, there's a placeholder page for the surface event. <Laugh> oh, so I don't know if they intentionally dropped this today or did not, but the there's a page there. It says save the date. It says watch live to see what's next. It does not say the word surface anywhere on here. It just says the event starts at 10:00 AM. So it looks like it's a virtual event and not an in-person event, although I've asked for confirmation of that and we have not heard anything. So the timing of this is very interesting. It's the day after meta connect, you know, when Meadow's gonna talk about their new hardware it's the same start day as the ignite conference, Microsoft's annual it pro event. So it's the same day.

Mary Jo Foley (01:07:05):
There's a lot of rumors. There's been a lot of rumors around what is likely to be announced by the surface team at this we've, we've talked about some of 'em on the show before we think there's gonna be a surface laptop five. We think there's gonna be surface studio three, the all in one device surface pro nine the two in one family we think will show up with both mm-hmm <affirmative> interestingly arm and Intel under the same brand. So they're bringing together the surface pro X line and the surface pro line, and just calling it surface pro nine, there was a rumor at one point, there might be a surface branded gaming laptop. There was some site that I had never heard of that published what looked like a real spec sheet for that. But nobody I know who covers hardware for Microsoft closely thinks that is real.

Mary Jo Foley (01:07:51):
So I guess we'll see, they said the specs were too low on that sheet the other big question, mark is Volera project Volera, which is something Microsoft showed and talked about at build the big arm based desktop PC that they're positioning as a developer workstation, primarily for AI type functions. There's, there's some rumors that it could actually start shipping and they could talk about it again at this event and just remind people, Hey, we're doing a lot of things with arm. We've got the surface pro nine, we've got this project Volterra thing, you know, Microsoft, they have to respond to what Apple's doing with arm. They're not a hundred percent ready for this and neither is Qualcomm, but sounds like they're gonna probably make a big show of what they're doing with the arm at this event.

Leo Laporte (01:08:40):
Is this gonna be you think just another video with Panos pane in his office, I know running around, or do you think there might make more of an event out of it?

Paul Thurrott (01:08:49):
Leo he's super pumped for this event. I know

Leo Laporte (01:08:51):
While you're down playing it, I'm trying to say what we should do. I guess that's I guess we'll just do you guys want to, well, you're gonna be watching and working, but we will cover on windows weekly later in the day, but

Paul Thurrott (01:09:03):
Wednesday, what day of the week is Wednesday?

Leo Laporte (01:09:04):
Stuff's Wednesday. It's

Paul Thurrott (01:09:06):
A Wednesday.

Leo Laporte (01:09:07):
This is perfect for us. I'll get up early in my I'll come on on my jam jams. This

Paul Thurrott (01:09:12):
Is a disaster

Leo Laporte (01:09:14):

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:15):
Okay. I just gotta, I just, I said is this event in person and I just got a response from spokesperson and said, we'll have more to tell you about whether it's in person at a later date.

Leo Laporte (01:09:24):
Well, better not be too much later. That's only three weeks from now.

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:27):
<Laugh> yeah, I know. And if it is, if it is in person gonna give people some heads up, right.

Leo Laporte (01:09:32):

Paul Thurrott (01:09:32):
Circling back that October 12 event. Yeah. That was virtual. When we had it last week, I promise I'd get back to you.

Leo Laporte (01:09:38):

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:38):
Well also it's the first day of ignite, which is a very busy news day for us too, because it, I there's always like cloud announcements and office announcements and that's, that's a pretty busy show too. <Laugh> 

Leo Laporte (01:09:49):
We will, I think we should live stream it. What, even if it's just pan us and his in his library. Yeah. But I think

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:55):

Leo Laporte (01:09:55):
I do 7:00 AM Pacific 10:00 AM. Eastern October 12th, Wednesday. I'll be there if you guys are, you know, not doing anything else, you could be there on our screen. Otherwise,

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:07):
If I'm alive that day, I'm just like <laugh> with ignite and that on the same day. Be crazy.

Leo Laporte (01:10:13):
Yeah. Yeah. Probably should just, just be me. And we'll talk about following on windows weekly following.

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:18):
I don't know, unless they have some big surprise at this surface event. I feel like it's more a incremental update kind of thing.

Leo Laporte (01:10:25):
Not a new surface, not a new new

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:28):
Hardware. There's no rumors have a surface 2 0 3 or any brand new form factors. I haven't heard any rumors, but either of those,

Paul Thurrott (01:10:35):
There is one other rumor that surface laptop might be Intel only again.

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:40):
Huh? Oh yeah. I saw that. Not

Paul Thurrott (01:10:41):
AMD, you know, MD might I thought was AMD gonna be part of surface pro? Maybe not. Nevermind. I don't know. I don't

Leo Laporte (01:10:49):
Know. Won't be R I think

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:50):
There's just a picture. Who's what's the CEO of AMD Lisa Sue.

Leo Laporte (01:10:55):
Is that her? No Sue that's right. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:56):
Sue. There was just a picture from P's TWITtter feed of him and her like hugging it up at some events. Oh, if there is no AMD, that's not a good look.

Leo Laporte (01:11:06):
That's right.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:07):
Maybe he was hugging her goodbye. Did

Leo Laporte (01:11:09):
She stick a, did she stick a little, little rise in seven in his pocket?

Paul Thurrott (01:11:13):
You, you didn't change ourselves at all, but thanks.

Mary Jo Foley (01:11:16):
It didn't look angry. It didn't look like an angry hug.

Leo Laporte (01:11:19):
<Laugh> interesting. Interesting. I don't know. I'm I would love an, an Athlon or not. Athlon a Mt. Athlon

Paul Thurrott (01:11:27):
Lon. I don't think you'd love an a no, I

Leo Laporte (01:11:29):
Don't want an Athlon laptop, but I would love every new Verizon laptop. It'd be great.

Mary Jo Foley (01:11:32):
I wanna hear more about Volera like, if they really push us as an AI, like first thing again, or if they are more like it's a developer work workstation, anybody could have it. Right.

Leo Laporte (01:11:43):
So October 12th is also according to Nvidia the release date of their new 40, 90 mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, but they, that wouldn't be in, they wouldn't tie that in that's too high,

Paul Thurrott (01:11:54):
Too many things, too many things like

Leo Laporte (01:11:56):
A $1,200 cart. And then the next day is the 13th gen CPU available data.

Mary Jo Foley (01:12:03):
Oh, is it really?

Leo Laporte (01:12:04):
Yeah. So that might be desktop

Paul Thurrott (01:12:06):
Class chips.

Leo Laporte (01:12:06):
Well, yeah. Yeah. They always do desktop first, right?

Paul Thurrott (01:12:10):
I think so. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:12:11):
Okay. It's a busy, it's just a busy time of the month. Google's October 6th. Apple has not yet announced when their event they will is gonna be, but they

Paul Thurrott (01:12:20):
Will. They got something

Leo Laporte (01:12:20):
It's probably the 18th is be my guess, especially now that we know that there's these two other,

Paul Thurrott (01:12:27):
Yeah. They're gonna wanna make sure not to step all over the Microsoft event. Get lost in the news cycle. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:12:33):
Okay. I, I know that's not really a concern, but you know, why not? <Laugh> we'll give goose the

Paul Thurrott (01:12:38):
First, like the 12 sounds good. Let's

Leo Laporte (01:12:41):
Do the 12. Let's do the 12. What the hell? Nothing else is happening.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:43):
What's that thing they have, again, a refrigerator microwave,

Leo Laporte (01:12:46):
Cause apple will announce laptop. This'll be M two laptops, M two hardware. So, yep. As well

Mary Jo Foley (01:12:52):
As that, what day is that? The apple one.

Leo Laporte (01:12:53):
It's not announced. They don't tell you until a week ahead of time, but I, my best guess is the 18th, the following week, this actually kind of confirms my guess. If, if they're gonna do, if Microsoft's gonna do event on the Wednesday before this, I said the sixth is out, the fourth is out. Cause it's not only early in the month that Google's gonna do their event that week following week, they could do it on the 11th, but it would really step on my

Paul Thurrott (01:13:21):
Columbus day is, is Columbus day. What screwing up this week is that why this thing

Leo Laporte (01:13:24):
Is happening Wednesday?

Mary Jo Foley (01:13:24):
It is. That

Leo Laporte (01:13:25):
Is what's. So they won't do it then cuz Abby the day after a holiday. So yeah, I think the 18th is pretty

Paul Thurrott (01:13:29):
Short what they did the iPhone event the day after labor day. Didn't

Leo Laporte (01:13:32):
They? I, which yeah, kind of, which was kind of weird two days after they did it on Wednesday, two days a result. So yeah. You know, you never know with apple, if they did do that, if Columbus stays the 10th, apple would do it on the, on the 12 massive

Paul Thurrott (01:13:45):
You to Microsoft. That would be massive. Well,

Leo Laporte (01:13:47):
Don't think they're gonna do that. I

Mary Jo Foley (01:13:48):
Really don't. No, I don't either. I, I, I think it would've been weird if Microsoft did their event on the same day as meta or if apple does theirs on the same day as meta it's like that, you shouldn't, although

Paul Thurrott (01:13:57):
Do that apple, you know, you could picture your apple doing it, right. They don't like meta. Yes. <Laugh> this

Mary Jo Foley (01:14:03):
Not a lot of, they don't

Paul Thurrott (01:14:04):
Lot love there.

Leo Laporte (01:14:05):
Good. All right. Well I'll put a pin in the 12th. We'll be doing that. Wow. And the 18th, I'm guessing for apple, we'll be doing that.

Paul Thurrott (01:14:15):
Hmm. Right. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>

Leo Laporte (01:14:17):
Okay. Yep. What else? What is this with Pentium? Sentium permium. Sentium what

Paul Thurrott (01:14:25):
Is, sentiums a good name. Yeah. So remember when was literally the biggest, most powerful processor in the world? This must have been like the mid nineties, I guess. I remember I had a friend who bought one and they had a they had the floating point bug. Remember he had a, send it back and give him his credit card number.

Leo Laporte (01:14:44):
That was 3 86 or

Paul Thurrott (01:14:46):
4,900 bucks or something was a 5 86, 6. Okay. But they wanted to move to brands because numbers couldn't be trademarked and people were stealing their brands. Right. So that was actually the end of it. There was no real 6 86. They went, they bought the, that Israeli company went to the core processor architecture after that. But you know, that used to be the thing that was like the biggest thing in the world. And now it is the saddest stupidest process

Leo Laporte (01:15:11):

Paul Thurrott (01:15:12):
It's weird. How much has changed in 27 years, whatever that is. So there's also Cron. Right. And I don't, I don't remember if I don't was Cron ever. The it's possible Cron was a high end brand in the beginning too. I, I remember came over initially on a card and required it and people freaked out cause it did, they weren't using sockets. And then they went back. They, they stopped doing that. Any hope those two brands are going to be taken away. They're still gonna make these low end processors, but now they will simply be called Intel processor. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:15:45):
Not what I know. They don't have to have a slide rule to figure out the name <laugh> holy cow. Right. I know. Okay. Intel processor and not gonna say, not gonna say any EMS anymore. 

Paul Thurrott (01:16:01):
Yeah. So there

Leo Laporte (01:16:03):
You go. Wow.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:04):

Leo Laporte (01:16:04):
Weird, weird with a beard.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:07):
Yep. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:16:08):
Okay. That's that is kind of the end of an era. I hate to say it, but that mm-hmm

Paul Thurrott (01:16:13):
<Affirmative> well, at the end it's been over for a long time.

Leo Laporte (01:16:16):
<Laugh> yeah. Well the year end. Yeah. It is the end.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:18):
The year the era ended you know, 20 years ago, but

Leo Laporte (01:16:21):
Wow. That's interesting. So if I, okay, so if I buy a cheap Chromebook, it won't, it won't, it'll just say an Intel they'll still have gold or you,

Paul Thurrott (01:16:31):
Well, I don't know. It will be cap capital P I'm sure. There'll be model numbers, you know?

Leo Laporte (01:16:35):

Paul Thurrott (01:16:36):
I don't know.

Leo Laporte (01:16:38):

Mary Jo Foley (01:16:38):
I think for normal though, this makes more sense, right?

Leo Laporte (01:16:41):
Oh yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:42):
Yeah. I would make more sense just to get rid of it.

Leo Laporte (01:16:44):
These names tarnished forever. Everybody says, I don't want, they kill Adam too.

Mary Jo Foley (01:16:50):
Celon right. You're like,

Leo Laporte (01:16:50):
No. Right. You don't want that. Yeah. I mean, in the day, Celine is pretty excited. Gosh, that's more than 20 years old now. Mm yep. Holy cow. Okay. Hard

Paul Thurrott (01:17:03):
Time. Remembering Celine, like what the deal was with Celine, but I assume it was a high end brand originally had to have been, right? No, there was penny.

Leo Laporte (01:17:11):
No it wasn't.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:12):
But there was penny two Penn three. So cellar on must have been like a mid-level thing.

Leo Laporte (01:17:16):
I think it was a bin penny, but I, I do remember they were highly over clockable. So for a while with enthusiasts getting a cellar on was desirable. Cuz you could over

Paul Thurrott (01:17:25):
Clock. Actually the, the first Xbox had a cellar processor.

Leo Laporte (01:17:28):
Didn't it? They didn't no, it was, I think

Paul Thurrott (01:17:30):
It did.

Leo Laporte (01:17:31):
Didn't they use the cell. Not the cell Iran.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:34):
No, no, no, no, no, no,

Mary Jo Foley (01:17:36):
No surface did. Right. Didn't surface. One of the surfaces have cellar on no, no they have penny gold. Right? They have penny gold.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:44):
Not the surface go. Yeah. Yeah. So it was is described as a custom penny three, not a Soone

Leo Laporte (01:17:53):
Custom Penn three. I could have SW we turned off some of the capabilities so that you could get <laugh> less it's

Paul Thurrott (01:18:01):
It's custom. I anyway, all

Leo Laporte (01:18:05):
Time ago. Good. But it's history. This definitely history. It is. Yeah. The end of the line. Let's talk Mo Microsoft <laugh> 

Paul Thurrott (01:18:15):
You know, you gotta have a section title Leo it's

Leo Laporte (01:18:18):
<Laugh> it's just, well the whole, by the way, I think we haven't given you enough credit for your creativity. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> the whole show is called. This is the big one Elizabeth. Right. And we have come down now to the Mo Mo Microsoft.

Paul Thurrott (01:18:33):
Yeah. I should. What I should have done was made the font size, smaller and smaller as we got down to the bottom.

Leo Laporte (01:18:37):
<Laugh> according to this, well, actually some of this is according to this list, Microsoft teams is a major new vulnerability.

Paul Thurrott (01:18:46):
Yeah. So I, this is how to me, I'm I'm not an expert in security and I don't follow the security space. So every time, every time there's a security vulnerability, it's notable. It's always discovered by someone I've never heard of. So vector research <laugh> discovered this problem in Microsoft teams. This is the native app, right? So this is the electron app that runs on windows, Mac and Linux, right. Stores, authentication, tokens, and clear text. Right? And so mm-hmm, <affirmative>, if you're able to get physical access to the computer and it's logged in, you can get into teams. You can then do things through the team, clients, not, not to the computer interestingly, but to the Microsoft great Microsoft graph API which is like a, <laugh> kind of a, you know, it's just a bunch of steps that probably had never gonna happen.

Paul Thurrott (01:19:32):
So Microsoft has basically said, thank you for telling us we have no plans to fix this. <Laugh>, you know, whatever vector research recommends that if you're using teams use the web based version of teams, not the, the native version, because Microsoft will almost certainly fix this thing eventually. But one of the things we know is that Microsoft is moving the team's code base to be like web standard, like progressive web app. And this, that platform would've solved this problem. This would not be a security problem in a progressive web app. So it's possible that the solution to this is a coming lightweight version of teams at his cross platform and, you know,

Leo Laporte (01:20:10):
Good. Cause I don't wanna install electron that's I know no fun. It's

Paul Thurrott (01:20:14):
I, you know, well, you know, if you want your computers a little too fast, you know, we have a, we have a solution for that

Leo Laporte (01:20:19):
Problem. I slow it down. <Laugh> yeah, sure. I, that sounds like a vulnerability because it sounds like, I mean, if it's, if they have to have physical access to your machine, it's not so bad, but yeah. If somebody got into your machine over the network cuz of another vulnerability they could pose as you on teams.

Paul Thurrott (01:20:38):
Yeah. Which

Leo Laporte (01:20:39):
Would be, I think problematic.

Paul Thurrott (01:20:41):
Right. I, yeah. I don't know. I don't know any, I really don't understand this too well, but it's basically what most people have said is if they just moved to PWA, this would go

Leo Laporte (01:20:51):
Away. So yeah. Yeah. So, well they could fix it immediately anyway. Yeah. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> yeah. Yeah. Power platform. Mary Jo. I'm so excited.

Mary Jo Foley (01:20:59):
Yeah. You know this, this week, just because there wasn't enough happening this week, this, it was also the first annual Microsoft power platform conference. And you know how I had to run off the show last week at the end and you guys thought I was going to the

Leo Laporte (01:21:14):
Rings funeral. Oh yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:21:15):
I was not. I was doing something better. I was interviewing Charles Lamana and Jeff Teer about the power platform. Like I had to talk to them right then, because I really wanted to learn about why they were doing this conference and what they were gonna do. And here's, here's my takeaways from this number one, this thing called adaptive cards. That is an open source framework for embedding bits of UI and applications. This is becoming like a standard thing across Microsoft, like windows used to talk about this. And then we heard the loop. People talk about it. Like you could build loop components using adaptive cards. We heard about that this year. And now we found out you also can combine adaptive cards inside of power apps and build things using adaptive cards and power apps designer. So I, I never really paid that much attention to adaptive cards, but it seems like it's the new hot thing at Microsoft for some reason. The other thing they announced was co-authoring inside power apps which is super interesting for people who are building power apps, but they're trying to build 'em with someone else before the way you do this is when are use is in power apps, building something, and then you have to pass it off to the other person. Then back to the other person. Now you can actually do realtime co-authoring and co-presence inside power apps.

Leo Laporte (01:22:33):

Mary Jo Foley (01:22:34):
Yeah. So that's kind of cool power apps is becoming a big deal. Like Jeff Teer who is way up in the office hierarchy at Microsoft, he said, I, he said, power apps is the development platform for office. Like that's how they're looking at it. Now. That's pretty much how important.

Paul Thurrott (01:22:52):
I'm glad you, I was gonna mention that if you didn't say that, I, I found that to be an incredible statement.

Mary Jo Foley (01:22:57):
That's a huge statement, right? Yeah. And he is like, I've been around since we were trying to do VBA and like trying to figure out how do you build something inside office? He's like power apps is the power platform is the way you build things in office now that's it like, that's our story. And whenever you hear them talk about collaborative apps, all collaborative apps are, it's a very broad definition now, but it means you can put pieces of office inside of power apps. You can put pieces of power apps inside office par you can put dynamics inside office, you can put office and dynamics. They're making it. So these things are bite size pieces that you can kind of pull this into here and listen to there they're they wanna make it. So they like, they talk about citizen developers and low code and all that, but they really wanna make development easier for people who are in the office, in the dynamics world.

Leo Laporte (01:23:48):
Yeah. That makes sense. They also wanna make office, I mean, development, a subscription thing. Yeah. I mean, we, I talked about this last week, but vs code, you need to, I mean, addition everywhere along the Microsoft development spectrum, you, you really need to be a subscriber, you know, you do. And that makes sense. That's how they get it. Does this revenue that's

Mary Jo Foley (01:24:09):
Yep. Yeah, it is. So yeah, I was, I unfortunately was not going to England. It would've been cool to see the funeral, but instead I got to talk to two people I don't get to talk to very often. So that was really fun. <Laugh> rather

Paul Thurrott (01:24:22):
Talk to Jeff taper than another queen, but yeah, that's fine. Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (01:24:26):

Leo Laporte (01:24:27):
Yeah. You didn't wanna wait that 10 hour line.

Mary Jo Foley (01:24:29):
No, I did not wanna wait in the queue. I'm not good at queuing.

Leo Laporte (01:24:32):
I love what they call it.

Mary Jo Foley (01:24:33):
The queue new Yorkers are bad at queuing. I will say

Leo Laporte (01:24:37):
<Laugh> somebody pointed out the word Q and that's what they're calling that 10 hour line to view the queen is a word that says everything in the first letter and then has E U E and you Q

Mary Jo Foley (01:24:49):
Yeah. A

Leo Laporte (01:24:49):
Lot of the end of, yeah, just

Paul Thurrott (01:24:50):
Like everything else. So British English. So had extra letters. Exactly. It

Leo Laporte (01:24:53):
Is Q

Mary Jo Foley (01:24:54):
It's. The letters are curing behind the queue. That's

Leo Laporte (01:24:56):
The perfect British word. Yeah. Yep. That's actually pretty, pretty funny. It is. Microsoft learn.

Paul Thurrott (01:25:04):
Yeah. So I had a little bit freak out about this as Mary Jo knows you did yesterday. I she talked me off the cliff. The, the reason is a year ago. Microsoft announced that they were gonna roll channel nine into Microsoft learn, right? Yeah. And the idea at the time was that all of the incredible content that channel nine had created over 20 plus years, I think 24 years, whatever was gonna be available on Microsoft learn. And it's not <laugh> it's a lot of it is not there. A lot of it's really hard to find. Channel nine I think was a special resource. I, I was freaked about that. And then I got this new story in my inbox from Microsoft, Hey, we're gonna get rid of Microsoft docs and we're gonna roll it into learn. And I was like,

Leo Laporte (01:25:46):
No, so docs, but actually what is docs? First of

Paul Thurrott (01:25:48):
All? So Microsoft docs is Microsoft documents.

Leo Laporte (01:25:51):
It's all the MSDN. What used to be MSDN stuff.

Paul Thurrott (01:25:54):
So if you go to, now it actually goes to

Leo Laporte (01:25:59):

Paul Thurrott (01:25:59):
Should go to do com slash docs. But, but so the documentation stuff is not gonna be changed. It will still all it's still all there. So it's not gonna be, how

Leo Laporte (01:26:09):
About the knowledge base is that part of that?

Paul Thurrott (01:26:12):
That's a good question. It should be. But actually it is those things have unique URL. So probably, I mean, technically I guess it probably would be, but this is Microsoft learn is more about like training and like how to guide, what

Leo Laporte (01:26:24):
Starts is this the, is this, are they taking over the LinkedIn learning and making it Microsoft learn? Or is this a new

Paul Thurrott (01:26:32):
Microsoft learn actually has the already existed. It's yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:26:35):

Mary Jo Foley (01:26:35):
And the two, those two things are integrated learn and, and LinkedIn, LinkedIn learning. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:26:41):
Yeah. So the method one you place for everything events.

Mary Jo Foley (01:26:45):
It is it's. It is, yeah. Yeah. It's getting bigger. And if you are somebody who's like bookmarked technical content and you're like, oh man, all my bookmarks, no, they're gonna preserve your bookmarks. Oh yeah. And if you go to that new doc, I like the new documents page. I think it's way easier to see what's there. Like it's a really nice product page

Paul Thurrott (01:27:05):
When you cover Microsoft wrong. Mary Jo and I, no, no, I'm, I'm just, but you know, Mary Jo, cuz you do the same thing I do. Yeah. Microsoft announces their innings. You're like Like it just, you just type stuff. Yeah. And so like one of the things I type really quickly, I go, I do, I go to the site all the time is doc do me too com so I type do C and it auto completes 'em there. Yeah. And so it's a small thing. <Laugh>, you know, it's, it's We'll get you to this thing. I agree that.

Mary Jo Foley (01:27:33):
Or just keep typing and then you'll just have one extra

Paul Thurrott (01:27:37):
Click fair. Okay. Fair enough. Fair. Well, no it should push through. Well, I think it only pushes through to So you have to go, you have to mainly

Mary Jo Foley (01:27:45):
Go to doc, you have one extra click. That's

Paul Thurrott (01:27:46):
Something they

Leo Laporte (01:27:47):
Should fix. But if you had a bookmark, they said they're preserving it. So they

Mary Jo Foley (01:27:50):
Are. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:27:52):
Anyway. It's okay,

Mary Jo Foley (01:27:53):
Paul, you'll be okay. You're gonna be okay.

Paul Thurrott (01:27:55):
<Laugh> I don't like change.

Leo Laporte (01:27:57):
No, I know how you feel. I

Paul Thurrott (01:27:58):
Just don't wanna understand this. This

Leo Laporte (01:28:00):
Is really important. If you're you need a reference, that's kind of static and always there. Right? this is why I like, and people

Mary Jo Foley (01:28:09):
Got, people got very traumatized, but what happened to channel nine and, and MSGN, and TechNet like, didn't really preserve everything when that came over. And so people are just like, oh man, this is a nightmare. Right.

Paul Thurrott (01:28:21):
<Laugh> it? That is a because thank you for bringing up that memory. Yeah. That's right Ms. My God MSDN. What a nightmare. That is exactly right.

Mary Jo Foley (01:28:28):
Yeah. So hopefully they've learned that lesson and things are gonna stick around in docs, developer,

Paul Thurrott (01:28:35):

Mary Jo Foley (01:28:36):
Icon's taking away.

Paul Thurrott (01:28:36):
It's not the same. That should be the tagline. It's not the same.

Mary Jo Foley (01:28:40):
<Laugh> cause

Paul Thurrott (01:28:41):
It's not anyway. It's okay. It's okay.

Mary Jo Foley (01:28:44):
Hmm. He's gonna be okay. He's gonna

Leo Laporte (01:28:47):
He's no, I'm with you, Paul. I don't.

Paul Thurrott (01:28:49):
Yeah. It'll like change.

Leo Laporte (01:28:50):
This is

Mary Jo Foley (01:28:51):

Leo Laporte (01:28:51):
You know what I used li because the documentation hasn't changed since 1984 <laugh> and it's still there. Right? Never go move.

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:00):
Oh no. I really hope, hope they were in their lesson about this. I do. I really hope they don't uproot this because people will mute me. They will. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:29:09):
I think this will be the least problematic of the changes you've discussed. I do. We've

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:13):
Discussed here. I agree. Yeah. But it's still, hopefully I hope we're right. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:29:21):

Paul Thurrott (01:29:22):
Yeah. So earlier in the show, this

Leo Laporte (01:29:24):
Is interesting because Figma just got bought by Adobe for the ridiculous sum of 20 billion. Yeah. Canva is,

Paul Thurrott (01:29:33):
Has not been bought. It's

Leo Laporte (01:29:34):
Not, but they're the competitor, right? They're

Paul Thurrott (01:29:37):
Actually, they are. So, yeah. That's, what's interesting. So Canva has been, so for Canva, for those people who dunno what they are, it's, it's kind of a like a, well, it's a set of web apps and services for creating design elements that you might use in social media and YouTube videos, or even in print media, like a, if you're making posters or things like that, it's so successful. I think I actually, no one has ever, you know, no one from Adobe would ever say this, but Adobe has something called creative cloud express. It is very clearly in the market because can exists. Yeah. There's no doubt about it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so Canva I've used it. I, I, I, I do use it. It's, it's a nice resource for that kind of stuff. Most people, well, a lot of people don't really need visual elements, but they do create things like documents or notes or presentations or whatever.

Paul Thurrott (01:30:23):
So Canva is creating something called visual work suite. It's not a separate product. So Canva is, is free and paid. There's a free version and a paid version, paid version, obviously get access to many more assets, et cetera, et cetera, probably in the case of if you're creating documents now or presentations, whatever, you know, web storage is probably part of it. I'm not actually sure, but they're, as part of this, they're gonna have a docs app. And this is the notion like thing I was referring to earlier, that to me looks a lot like notion or things that are like notion mm-hmm right. And it's, you know, this is, I, I have to say my initial reaction to this, of course my de jerk reaction is always wrong, was like, this is stupid. What are they doing? And then you read about it and you're like, oh, okay.

Paul Thurrott (01:31:04):
Actually it makes sense. So I am a professional writer, but I only use five, 7% of word. Maybe. most people are not professional writers. They need even less than I use most people, whatever their job is. They have some need to write something from time to time, they use whatever they use, but this is kind of a a document creation platform for creators. And I meant broadly, right? Because creators are all kinds of different people. They don't just make videos or social media posts or whatever. I mean, people are writers or creators or, you know, whatever. So in the context of what they do, the, the full list of things they have here now, or will soon have, are docs, whiteboards, presentations, social media, video, print, and websites, all of which are exactly what they sound like. <Laugh> right. And I, you know, honestly, <laugh>, and, and the, you know, there's a free version. Like I said, the paid version is 120 bucks per year. And it's interesting. So I don't, I don't know,

Leo Laporte (01:32:07):
This is why Adobe bought Figma. They were getting their lunch handed to them

Paul Thurrott (01:32:12):
By things like this.

Leo Laporte (01:32:13):
It's hard to do the math. You know, Fig's annual recurring revenue was 400 million. It's a lot of 400 million to get to 20 billion.

Paul Thurrott (01:32:23):
I, I almost got into that part of it. I almost said to you, when you first mentioned Figma, I said, the math on that is I in my head, I, I didn't say it, but I, the math on that is fascinating. Here's the real math. What happens when a company like Figma or these guys make your business obsolete? You how much, how much will

Leo Laporte (01:32:39):
That, that's why Adobe did it. Yeah. Right. And now I have to wonder what, you know, what they're gonna do. Right.

Paul Thurrott (01:32:45):
Or it's just like Adobe is,

Leo Laporte (01:32:46):
Or maybe cam is more of a threat to Zoho or Google docs or something

Paul Thurrott (01:32:50):
Like that. Well, eventually, right. I mean eventually, but the thing is like Adobe creative cloud, as we call it now is what I think of as a legacy business that has been turned into a subscription model. What does that sound like? <Laugh> Microsoft 365, right? It's kind of the creative version of Microsoft 365. So these are two businesses that are legacy businesses. They've been kind of propped up for this new world, but they're under fire by things that are free, are almost free and are much easier to use. So notion being the obvious thing compared to say OneNote or word or whatever you know, Google docs was a foray into this kind of an idea for, you know, for specific word processing, spreadsheets, presentations, Google,

Leo Laporte (01:33:31):
Whatever, Google though never stopped being battleship gray. So it never got canvas pretty. And I could see canvas kind of getting some traction

Paul Thurrott (01:33:39):
Well and go, and Canva is, I, I, I would say Google is a little more beholden to the old way of doing things, right. Even though they had modern things like, you know, real time collaboration, all that, it was very much set up toolbar menus, you know?

Leo Laporte (01:33:52):
And it looked like an engineer designed, did it really didn't. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:33:56):
Yeah. Well,

Mary Jo Foley (01:33:56):
Exactly. And then you, you guys haven't mentioned this, but Microsoft's building its own competitor to CAMBA, right. That Microsoft designer thing. Right. That's right. They're building a competitive notion

Leo Laporte (01:34:07):
And these collaborative you know, panel

Mary Jo Foley (01:34:10):
Collaborative app apps.

Leo Laporte (01:34:11):
If you

Paul Thurrott (01:34:11):
Go back, if you go back, I don't know the time, I'm sorry. I don't know the exact dates, but Mary Jo remember things like this, like there, there were tools like sway is an obvious one. Yeah. And there was some God, it was like a front end for presenta or for a PowerPoint. His name escapes me. Now these were positioned in the beginning as like, yeah, we have these big battleship things that we make, but yeah, we have these smaller, lighter, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> they both have disappeared actually, but they're still kind of pushing toward that. I think it's hard when you have something that's like a everything in, in one product solution like word or Excel or whatever. But these little guys, like little markdown editors, little note taking apps, little to-do lists, you know, whatever I think are eating the lunch of these like powerful paid suites. And

Leo Laporte (01:34:58):
I think that's, that's why this is announced this this week slack. Oh, right. Slack has docs or is going to have docs.

Paul Thurrott (01:35:05):
And I, this is in the notes, but zoom announced they're gonna have email and calendar. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:35:10):

Paul Thurrott (01:35:10):
Right. We, we, well, no one knows this, but we've talked about the fact that Amazon has this suite of business apps that do things I know that no one has ever heard of, but Amazon is struggling to get into this as well. Yeah. I mean, eventually everyone's gonna do everything, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> so we'll see. I mean, this, you know, we'll see what wins out at the end, but yeah. I will say I just having used Canva for the stuff that they're kind of traditionally good at I've I've I like the service. It works well. I mean, this is curious, I mean, this is interesting.

Leo Laporte (01:35:41):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>

Paul Thurrott (01:35:43):
I'm not saying I'm searching,

Leo Laporte (01:35:44):
Isn't this all a precursor to have the web as the operating system. And that's

Paul Thurrott (01:35:50):
Kind listen, mark Andreessen. I don't know what

Leo Laporte (01:35:53):
You're spending. No, but I mean, honestly, and, and who's gonna be best positioned for that is, is the companies that have the backend Azure, AWS, this is

Paul Thurrott (01:36:03):
Exactly, this is the same argument about game streaming, like who has the infrastructure to dot, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> yeah. Cause

Leo Laporte (01:36:09):
I bet you can is running on Azure. I mean, or AWS, right?

Paul Thurrott (01:36:13):
I would. So, right. So Microsoft is positioned to do well against these kinds of upstarts. These are the types of businesses they would've destroyed in the 1990s easily. It's a different world today. Right? So we'll see what happens. But if they do the right thing, they will come out with new versions of legacy apps or new apps that they call something else that like Microsoft loop, right. That will be as good or better than notion and will appeal to their existing cousin. You know, all that stuff. Mm-Hmm

Leo Laporte (01:36:40):
<Affirmative> I wonder if there, if Figma will start an acquisition frenzy, that there'll be a feeding frenzy now for these guys.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:47):

Leo Laporte (01:36:47):
And maybe that's why Slack's adding docs. Right. Slack would love to get acquired. They, they need to get acquired.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:52):
That was, that

Leo Laporte (01:36:54):

Paul Thurrott (01:36:54):
Sure that was slack.

Leo Laporte (01:36:55):
They're part of Salesforce. Right? Didn't they get acquired. Oh, they did get acquired. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so Salesforce, well, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. But now they're ster it.

Paul Thurrott (01:37:02):
So, but Salesforce, as the parent company is saying, look, we need, we can't just do, you know, Microsoft teams is not just chat. Microsoft teams is an operating system. They're already getting destroyed just in that one thing.

Leo Laporte (01:37:12):
That's when the end times have come, when you can do a document drawing whiteboard and teams and that there that's is coming. Right. This

Paul Thurrott (01:37:20):
Is, this is gonna be the second coming of EAX

Leo Laporte (01:37:23):
<Laugh> I've got all of that already in my EAX.

Paul Thurrott (01:37:28):
Right. I mean, I hope you like text, but

Leo Laporte (01:37:30):

Paul Thurrott (01:37:30):
It does everything

Leo Laporte (01:37:31):
I can do it all. My favorite is when you, when you go to a geek developer conference and they have their PowerPoint slides in Emax I love that. I just love that. <Laugh> it's just so true. Geeks. True geeks. So 1980s. <Laugh> so cool. One note is also undergoing some shifts.

Mary Jo Foley (01:37:56):
Yeah. So remember last August, when we, we kind of thought we knew where OneNote was going, and then they said, you know what? We're actually gonna merge the two different versions of OneNote that we have. And on windows, it'll just be one, one note, which we were like, oh good. That's that sounds great. Because right now you could get one from the store. And there's one that chips with the operating system and they said, no, we're gonna merge these two things together. We're gonna bring the best of both into one product and keep the one note for windows 10 available for people who really need all the functionality. And then we heard nothing, right? Like nothing at all about that merged app until this week, when it showed up on the Microsoft 365 roadmap as going into preview in October and shipping in October, like this gonna it's all gonna happen really fast. Right. <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:38:46):
What is this thing gonna look like though? Like, what is this, what is this thing?

Mary Jo Foley (01:38:50):
Right. So if you go back, yeah, go back and look at our story stories from this timeframe. And it, it said, you know, like they're gonna have all the features that you want no, and love. Right. It's gonna have like Penn and inking and a new UI and new layout option. And they're gonna bring the best of one and the other together. And then the way they're doing this is so complicated, how they're merging it, like how they, what they're telling people. Like, if you're using this one, well, you do this. If you're using this one, you do that. But

Paul Thurrott (01:39:22):
To satisfy here, that's the

Mary Jo Foley (01:39:23):
Problem. They, yeah, they do. Yeah. They do one note's like, they're marque one of their marquee apps. They can't screw this up. Like they have so many people, especially in education who care. Right.

Leo Laporte (01:39:33):
Oh, that's interesting. Oh, so it's very popular.

Mary Jo Foley (01:39:37):
Oh, in education. It's huge. Really.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:39):
But you know, but years ago we had talked to people at one note and they sort of saw this thing. We were just talking about coming and they were saying, you know, well, what do you think about like a lightweight strip down OneNote that's, you know, maybe marked down based. And, and I was like, please, I, I, to me, you know, one note turned, one note started as this product. I didn't, I couldn't believe they were making cuz it was something I needed and I guess students would need. And I didn't get why, like you made something I would use every day and then it turned into an office product, right? So it's 1,000,001 yeah. Things going on. It's a busy, big thing. <Laugh> and I don't know, you know, if you look at the notes, actually, you can just look at the notes we have for windows weekly in notion. That's kind of, that's kind of as complex as I need my notes to be. And this is,

Leo Laporte (01:40:22):
This is so referring back to the previous story, this is the risk of taking a simple thing, like canvas and yep. Blowing it up which you could argue Microsoft's already done with Microsoft. It makes it almost not usable. Cause there's too much in it. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:36):
Right, right.

Mary Jo Foley (01:40:37):
I would, one note is overkill. It's too much.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:39):
That's why I think so. It's

Mary Jo Foley (01:40:41):
I like people used to always say to me, you should be using OneNote, not notepad. And I'm like, it's overkill for what I need. There's nothing. I like one note has so much functionality. Right.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:51):
There's there's always a blocker on anything. Right. So you, I, you know, why don't I just use one note for writing, right. I could just use one note. Yeah. You know, there's, there's one big reason and it is that when you it's, because I publish to the web and so do you, so mm-hmm <affirmative> if you take something from word and you paste it into whatever your CMS is, it works fine. If you do it from one note, it does not work fine. And so that surface that whatever that thing is, the format, whatever you would think, it must be the same as Microsoft word. It is not. And so that, I'm sorry, but that make, that means I can't use it. Like that's, it doesn't matter how good it is that, and then there are other problems, like just complexity related problems. Yeah. That's why, you know, I look when I look at anything, whether like notion is a great, notion's beautiful. The reason this document that we look at every day in the notes is formatted with these exact font sizes and, and heading styles is I pace this into the thing I post when the show goes live. And it maps exactly to WordPress. It's a hundred percent. I don't have to change the thing. It works just as good as word. And it's a million times similar.

Leo Laporte (01:41:59):
Yeah. I've been using notion for a long time. I really, I really like it. And it, you don't have a lot of font choices or anything. It's just,

Paul Thurrott (01:42:08):
I don't need a lot of font choices.

Leo Laporte (01:42:09):
Don't not about the fonts.

Paul Thurrott (01:42:10):
I'm not making a, like a, a, like a kidnapping note or whatever. Right. Like, I I'm, you know, honestly, when I take notes, I don't use any headings or anything. I mean, I, this is because I'm going to the web with it. But I mean, even like a, even a lengthy 3000 word article has heading two, some hyperlinks, a couple bolds and ities, and that's it. There's nothing, you know,

Leo Laporte (01:42:36):
What are you telling you? You need EAX or mode I'm telling you <laugh> your life would be so much easier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Be interesting to see will you guys look at one note and cuz I remember we suffered, we've been suffering for days, 10 years. No. Using one.

Paul Thurrott (01:42:55):
I don't care what they do with it. It doesn't matter. It's not gonna be what we need. It doesn't matter. Well, they haven't

Mary Jo Foley (01:42:59):
Said, like I said, I don't think they've said co-authoring is gonna be fixed. Right.

Paul Thurrott (01:43:02):
It doesn't matter. Honestly, God, I don't care if it's the best co-authoring and it doesn't matter because the app they're gonna publish the app they're gonna create, has to satisfy the needs of all those users. Half of which love the version from windows 10 half of which loved the classic desktop app, which they briefly stopped updating in 2016, by the way. <Laugh> and it's just, it's gonna be a hut mess of everything that they've ever done pushed together into one. I don't need it. I don't, that's not, it

Leo Laporte (01:43:28):
Doesn't matter. I do have to say that in, in the news and there has been some upset about it. Notion says we're gonna focus more on enterprise and we're gonna have to add enterprise features and stuff. And I have a feeling notion is moving more in the page, OneNote direction page. Well they're already,

Paul Thurrott (01:43:47):
You know. Okay. So I didn't know what you were gonna say, but I will say like when Instagram says we're gonna focus more on video, I get this like lump in my yeah. Like stomach me, what? But then you say we're gonna focus more on enterprise. I'm like, eh, that's fine.

Leo Laporte (01:44:02):
Okay. <Laugh> that's fine. There's been some concern in the notion universe about what that mean, but that's, you know, people are normal. That's okay.

Paul Thurrott (01:44:08):
Always that, I didn't know what you were gonna say. Like depending on what you said, I was gonna be like

Leo Laporte (01:44:13):
I would hate to do anything that would make you unhappy. Paul we're

Paul Thurrott (01:44:16):
Gonna no, no. I mean like we're gonna focus on P like customers that can pay us. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. <Laugh>, that's

Leo Laporte (01:44:22):
Fine. I think it's probably be more collaborative stuff. I can't remember. It's been a while since this couple of weeks ago,

Paul Thurrott (01:44:28):
But obviously for these notes, collaboration is a big deal. The fact that like Mary Jo and I in 2022 can get into a document and both edit it at the same time and not screw anything up ever. Not once amazing is an act of magic. That is incredible, amazing in my day to day life for writing and whatever note taking, I, I need even less than this. Yeah. You know, I just need an editor. I don't even, I don't need the management fold, you know, the structure and all that

Leo Laporte (01:44:53):
Stuff. You need notepad.

Paul Thurrott (01:44:53):
I don't even need that. I need notepad. If only there was something like notepad plus plus, oh wait I need, I need more than notepad and less than word. I

Leo Laporte (01:45:04):
Guess you need Thero pad. He already wrote that.

Paul Thurrott (01:45:09):
Well a markdown, something, something maybe

Leo Laporte (01:45:14):
I think unfortunately writing something like notion is actually really, really, really hard. Just strikes me because

Paul Thurrott (01:45:21):
Well, and but if notion goes full enterprise and it's all paid stuff and all the best features are only for paid customers, et cetera, et cetera. There are a bunch of alternatives.

Leo Laporte (01:45:30):
Oh, there's a ton of them. There's a lot of competition.

Paul Thurrott (01:45:32):
You'll be okay if you're on notion today, don't worry about this. You'll be fine. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:45:37):
Notion is as perfect a tool for what you guys are doing as I can imagine. Really. I mean agree. Right. It's it's it scratches all the itches. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (01:45:49):
Yep. Yeah. Nothing's perfect. But this is sometimes better than what

Leo Laporte (01:45:52):
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Alright. Alright. I think now would be a good time for Mary Jo to take a nap <laugh> or feed Sorachi because it's Xbox time.

Paul Thurrott (01:46:05):

Leo Laporte (01:46:06):
Okay. Okay. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:46:08):
So, because everything has to happen at the same today. Time Microsoft today started rolling out the September, 2022 update for the Xbox one and Xbox series X and S this there's not a lot going on in here. I think that that basically the full library view is the big deal where you can see all the games you own plus titles from game ships and services, not just game pass, but others all in one place. Okay. That's cool. The big thing here though, is if you have an Xbox elite series, two controller, this app will let you change the color of the Xbox button in the middle. That's awesome. So instead of being white, it could be like green, which would be my choice or different colors. You could have it strobe <laugh> and do different things. I didn't even know you could do that. So that's kind of cool. So that's coming actually, that's coming today. So if you have a, a new, like a supported Xbox you'll get that. You'll get the party chat noise suppression feature. We talked about recently for some reason. I don't remember the context of that. Oh, cuz it's coming to windows. That's why, but it's available in the console as of today. Oh boy. I'm having a, a weird performance problem in my browser. Please wait

Leo Laporte (01:47:16):
Better than a weird performance problem in your brain.

Paul Thurrott (01:47:20):
Yep. That too. This is actually what my brain is. Like. It says not responding. I'm giving there. It is. There it is. All right. So yeah, its just like a little sign at my sign. Just getting a little wide anyway. So Microsoft admitted this week that they made changes to how DRM works on Xbox one and Xbox series X and S that they say they did to make more games playable while offline or presumably in a submarine. So when they were asked about this they, they were kind of vague, but they said, well, you know, we wanna make sure people have a good experience, et cetera. Anyone who uses a an Xbox console knows that this thing is basically dead weight if you're not connected to the internet. So one of the big arguments about like disc based games that people still have as well, at least you can still play the game.

Paul Thurrott (01:48:07):
If you're not online, it's like, that's not always true. But the thing is I why like, but why are they, why are they doing this now? Right. So we live in an era where we've already shifted from disc based games to digital games. I think, although I've never actually seen data for that, but I would imagine most people are getting games digitally. Right? I do. I, in fact, I stopped buying game discs when the Xbox 360 was still a thing. That's how long ago it was. So for the Xbox one, I never bought any discs, Xbox series X and S never, never, I will never buy a game disc ever. The games I wanna play, you have to be online, you know? Okay. Whatever. So why would they do that? Is another report that I think is related to this where Sony is reportedly gonna launch a new version of the PlayStation five that has a detachable disc drive.

Paul Thurrott (01:48:53):
Right? So the way those things work today is they have the disc list version. Gotta be careful with that one and the, the one with the disc, right? So Microsoft has the same system. So now the one with the disc will basically be the disc list version, but in the box will be this external drive. Okay. <laugh> like, why would, why would you do that? Like, why not just how's this thing gonna be sold? Like you go to, it's like an apple watch, you get like two boxes and you put 'em in one big box. If you get the version with it is like kind of unclear, but related to this is something to do with DRM. So it's almost like these console makers are positioning themselves for the future, which is the shift from digital games to game streaming, right. Where fewer and fewer customers are gonna need discs.

Paul Thurrott (01:49:39):
And over time, fewer and fewer customers are probably gonna need storage. Right. So it's kind of an interesting thing. Like I actually think, or if I should say, if you think back to the Xbox 360, there was briefly an HD DVD drive, which is an external drive. It was, I probably connected, I guess, over USB, if I can remember correctly and you could not put game discs in it. Right. And it had to do with DRM and the issue. This is something about, you know, they don't want people to be able to put something in a box, copy it, bring it to another Xbox in this case and use it somewhere else. And I think we're kind of shifting the way that DRM works because fewer and fewer people require media. So Microsoft isn't really saying, but my theory is I, I think we're setting up Xbox and Sony is on the PlayStation side for the future where things are more digital and more streaming, you know, we're gonna kind of get rid of discs. Eventually. I know people and a freak out about that anyway. So we also got the second wave of games for Xbox game pass across PC console and cloud today. I mean, these games will come out over the rest of the month. The big one here is, is what it's called death loop. And the other ones I, well, Val Heim actually is

Leo Laporte (01:50:59):

Paul Thurrott (01:50:59):
Exciting. Kind of a big one on Xbox.

Leo Laporte (01:51:01):
That's a big one. I've heard of that before.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:03):
Yeah. Yep. Yep. So that's

Leo Laporte (01:51:06):
Actually, actuallyhe been available on the Xbox.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:08):
So actually I apologize.

Leo Laporte (01:51:10):
It says PC

Paul Thurrott (01:51:11):
It's PC game. Sorry. I was, as I said it I'm like, wait a minute. Is that actually coming? Xbox? Sorry, sorry. Sorry. PC's it's PC. That's PC. Of course it is. Death loop is it

Leo Laporte (01:51:20):
Is coming to Xbox Xbox

Paul Thurrott (01:51:21):
Developers. It is. Oh, interesting

Leo Laporte (01:51:22):
Reporting it, but it's, that's a ways off. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:25):
Must be played with a keyboard. 

Leo Laporte (01:51:28):

Paul Thurrott (01:51:28):
And then cloud too. So, and anyway, so that's coming, that's all coming. I don't know. I keep closing my tabs and then I have to wait <laugh> cuz my nuts that's okay. I'll just move on.

Leo Laporte (01:51:37):
Close yours.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:38):
There's something wrong on this

Leo Laporte (01:51:39):
Computer breaks into rockstar. Yeah. Leak. Lots of GTA. Six footage. People are disappointed.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:47):
<Laugh> they see you don't

Leo Laporte (01:51:48):
They should be happy. At least it's being worked upon.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:52):
I would say that this game right now is at the same level of quality that halo infinite was yeah. In August, 2020. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:52:00):
Duke Newcomb forever. Part two. It,

Paul Thurrott (01:52:02):
There you go. That's there you go. And it, anyway, this hack has been confirmed. Rockstar said yep. Network intrusion, blah, blah

Leo Laporte (01:52:09):
Blah. So yeah. And they were pissed cuz they said you you're not seeing the game as it's gonna be. This is very, very early footage and don't get your knots in a panty

Paul Thurrott (01:52:18):
<Laugh>. Yep. So <laugh> and then concurrent with the new Xbox system update on consoles, there's also new version of the Xbox app for the PC performance improvements, et cetera, et cetera. Ooh, I got an ex I gotta call a duty message from Xbox that's.

Leo Laporte (01:52:35):

Paul Thurrott (01:52:36):
A weird coincidence. <Laugh> it came in as a notification.

Leo Laporte (01:52:39):
It heard you talking.

Paul Thurrott (01:52:41):
Yeah, that is really that's fascinating. Woo. And of course what popped up was something I, I can't oh, there it is. It says thank you for pre-ordering call duty motor warfare too. Your pre-order includes early access to the open beta, which I'm not gonna talk that's my we'll get to that later. Okay. So that's coming up anyway. The Xbox app for PC performance improvements, shouldn't be hard. But the big thing is integration with the service, how long to beat, right. And this is a, a web service that estimates how long game should take and, and where you are in the game center. So that's kind of cool. That's

Leo Laporte (01:53:12):
Kind of interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Not that I want to know that, but

Paul Thurrott (01:53:16):
Well it's like it's, you know, do there's all. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:53:20):
I hear people all time. This is a 500 hour game or this is a 60 hour game or 10 hour game and that kind of thing. So I understand that.

Paul Thurrott (01:53:26):
I'd like to know where I am, you know? Yeah. Like where goes, if you yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:53:30):
So, you know, I have something to report. I mm-hmm <affirmative> as you know use Linux to play games and I have to say steam, which is now incorporated the proton compatibility layer for Lenux there mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, remember I went out and I, cause I wanted play straight. I could play almost every game. And this is partly cuz of the steam deck, I think, oh man. But I could play everything I want beautifully. So as I was streaming on TWITtch with OBS on Linux running satisfactory, which is a windows only game ran. Great.

Paul Thurrott (01:54:00):
When you say with OBS

Leo Laporte (01:54:02):
OBS studio is what you

Paul Thurrott (01:54:04):
Did mean that the recording this

Leo Laporte (01:54:05):
Cover. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And streaming. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:54:08):
And oh, so

Leo Laporte (01:54:08):
All of this running on a Linux box

Paul Thurrott (01:54:09):
Recording it. Right. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:54:11):
Yeah. On and yeah. So you Linux lovers, I know you're not listening to this show. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:54:18):
Just why why did this software not get a, a wine name?

Leo Laporte (01:54:23):
There it's like wine, but it's called proton. There's actually another, there's several compatibility layers that make gaming and it, I, it works surprisingly well and I really give, give credit to steam for that

Paul Thurrott (01:54:33):
Be the hardest thing to,

Leo Laporte (01:54:35):
To do one would think, right?

Paul Thurrott (01:54:36):
Like you can't run a modern version of office on Linux for some reason, but you telling me I can play the most modern game imaginable works. Great. That's

Leo Laporte (01:54:44):
Crazy. I'll try, I'll try call a duty. I'd be curious. Yeah. Still, you know, I mean, if you want to do PC gaming, you gotta be running windows, I think, but it's slowly, you know, changing and I I've been very happy with the games I can, I can run now under steam. Right. So just thought, I'd mention, throw that into our Xbox segment. Okay. Mary Jo wake up. Yes <laugh> <laugh>. We will get on with the show, the back of the book coming up in just a sec, Mary Jo Foley from ZDNet all about, Paul Thurrott from and his books And our show today is brought to you by Melissa. Melissa is a leading provider.

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Paul Thurrott (01:59:36):
Yeah. So one of the less heralded features of windows 11 version 22 H two and probably what it's of its least well understood features is something called smart app control. So this is a security feature it's available to individuals it's available to businesses where it's actually it can be managed and it has a little asterisks to it, which is that if you're running windows 10 or 11 today and you upgrade to 22 H two, you cannot enable this feature <laugh> so if you buy a new PC I with 22 H two on it, I believe it's gonna be enabled by default. I've not gotten one to verify that yet. Or if you do a clean install of windows 11 version 22 H two, meaning you know, you download the ISO clean install into a computer or use PC reset to go back to a new install.

Paul Thurrott (02:00:26):
You can enable it right up front and the way you do that is you open windows security. I should just look at this go into app and browser controlling. You'll see there's something called smart app control and you click on the settings button and it can be on, it can be an evaluation mode or it can be off. And it's off by default. If you know you upgrade it like I did, the problem is if you upgrade, you can't turn it on. It's great out. So I have installed this now on three computers that I did a clean install with. And of course the, oh, I should say what it is. So <laugh> what, what it does is it uses AI to predict whether an app you download or a copy to your computer is malicious or what Microsoft calls untrusted. And if it is found to be untrusted, it will block it from running on your computer, right?

Paul Thurrott (02:01:12):
So it's a, it's a, basically an, an AI based way to predict whether an app is safe or not. So how it does its work is a little hard to explain, but the most basic version of the story is if the app is unsigned and the software can't predict the level of maliciousness in the code, it will be untrusted like full stop. So to test this, I asked on TWITtter, if people could give me some ideas for malicious apps, I could download on them in computers cuz who doesn't wanna do that for fun over a weekend. And I got some pretty good ones. And so I got some of these will be in the book. We'll do an episode of hands on windows, for example, I will do this live. And you can see how this works. If you're familiar with the various security controls and windows for like anti fishing or antivirus or anti malware, et cetera, or there are download controls, built into Microsoft edge, for example, where it will try to block the download, like right as you're doing it.

Paul Thurrott (02:02:11):
You know, that mic windows says multiple layers of support. This is kind of the last line of support is what I would call it. What's interesting about it is it's a one way street. So a it's either on or off, obviously if you decide to turn this thing off, you're never turning it on again. So once you turn it off, it cannot come back. If your computer is managed, that will be decided by your it department, by the way. So you're not gonna be able to turn this off as an individual, if it's managed if you do turn it on and it finds software that it think it predicts is malicious or is untrusted, I should say, there is no way to bypass it. <Laugh> so there are some common apps out in the world that are just poorly designed are not signed.

Paul Thurrott (02:02:51):
And I have been able to trigger this thing and there's just, there's no way around it. So I, I'm not a hundred percent sure on this bit of it. I've only cuz I've only experimented with this a little bit, but in at least one case, it actually just removed the file. So it was like one of those things I copied over USB tried to run it. It was like, Nope. And then I went back to the desktop and it was gone. <Laugh> it's like, yeah, you're not doing it. So it's kind of a, this is we, we talked earlier on about theories about the future and hardware back security and all that kind of stuff. I think this is part of this. And I think this is part of this move where windows is evolving over time to, to a use hardware, to help prevent security, you know, security problems, but also just to turn security on by default, right?

Paul Thurrott (02:03:38):
So windows 11, the first version they're like, look, we have these hardware or hardware requirements, windows 11 version 22 H two, like, look, we have all these security features, we're turning them on. So if you buy a new computer going forward, this thing will be on and it will prevent you from downloading this kind of software. But if you're just getting it yourself, like I am right now you can turn it on yourself. You just have to do a clean install so you can try it. Okay. And yeah, so the thing I got from Xbox, which is so exciting is it says thank you for pre-ordering the call of duty ware for to, oh, actually that's what it says. You pre-order includes early access to the open beta, which you can start pre downloading today. That's hilarious. Let me help you with this.

Paul Thurrott (02:04:24):
The English of that, you can start downloading it today. <Laugh> and then <laugh> when the beta goes live tomorrow. I think it's 1:00 PM, et, if I'm not mistaken, you can start playing the game through I think the 24th. So this game is available in open beta on PlayStation now because PlayStation has that exclusivity. If you're on a PC or an Xbox, you can download it from the wherever you got it. Now the open beta on Xbox, by the way, 35 gigs. So might wanna get that pre-download started. And you can, you can enjoy the open at beta, which is exactly how I will, how I will be spending my weekend. I cannot wait.

Mary Jo Foley (02:05:06):

Leo Laporte (02:05:07):
Woo. Yeah. Very exciting. Yep. You think it's gonna be good? Modern warfare was a classic version of goal duty, I think.

Paul Thurrott (02:05:18):
Yeah. Yeah. And actually modern warfare, the remake, the 2019 game, I think yeah. Was the last call of duty game. The

Leo Laporte (02:05:26):
Last good one. <Laugh> where

Paul Thurrott (02:05:28):
I finished. I actually played the single player campaign. Oh, interesting. I played it all the way through. Yeah. Okay.

Leo Laporte (02:05:33):
Well that's exciting. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (02:05:34):
In the modern, the modern way for the original trilogy is probably the, was the high point I

Leo Laporte (02:05:39):
Would say for this. Yeah. That's my sense of it. Never having played it, but although I like the world Wari one, I really do. What was that?

Paul Thurrott (02:05:48):
Yeah, I did. I did originally and it just over time as they kept coming out with more and more of them, it was like, okay guys, we get it. Yeah. Did the Germans win this time or yeah. No,

Leo Laporte (02:05:57):
The zombies win. Yeah. The and enterprise pick of the week from Mary Joe Foley.

Mary Jo Foley (02:06:04):
So this is another pick connected to the first ever Microsoft power platform conference <laugh> in addition to the features I talked about earlier, they also announced a new skilling program and a certification program for people who want to get into power apps. Who've been looking for kind of like a guided path, how to do it. You know, we keep hearing, oh, it's low code. Anybody can do it. It's so easy. Just do it. But you know, saying that and actually doing it or two different things. So they started this program. You can go to Slash PowerUp, and there's a whole website around this. There's people who've actually gone through the program. It's a three, three month curriculum. It's virtual. And then at the end you get a certification saying that you have completed this coursework and you are able to be a power platform developer you can do.

Mary Jo Foley (02:07:01):
And they're telling you how to do things like create intelligent chat bots, how to analyze data, how to build solutions, automate processes. So all the things that you do with the different parts of the power platform stack, I gotta admit, I'm a little tempted to try this myself. <Laugh> because I'm like, okay, I've, I've been intimidated to try doing power platform stuff because I really have no computer science background at all. I'm not even, I wouldn't call myself like an Excel jockey or someone who thinks in this way, but reading through this material, I'm like, like maybe they could turn even a humble journalist like me into a power platform developer who knows. Wow. So yeah. Check it out. You, you have to apply the program's free. You have to apply and be accepted. But once you are, everything's free,

Leo Laporte (02:07:50):
It's actually better for somebody like you to do this.

Mary Jo Foley (02:07:53):
It is

Leo Laporte (02:07:53):
Because if Paul and I were to do this, we'd be saying, well, where's the for loop. I don't understand what this wild

Mary Jo Foley (02:07:59):
You guys are too. You're too advanced. This is for normal people. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:08:03):
You nor

Paul Thurrott (02:08:04):
How embarrassing would that be?

Leo Laporte (02:08:06):
<Laugh> well that too. But you know, HyperCard a lot, there have been a lot of attempts to make you know, apple has apple script and stuff and it's just, it's too English. Like, so somebody who's done a lot of coding. It's like, I don't, I don't get it. So I think, but maybe I would. Yeah, really, because you know, really all you need is a logical brain and the ability to solve problems and reason stuff out, you know, you'd be great at that. I'd be very, so you're gonna do the whole

Paul Thurrott (02:08:34):
Thing. You, you said you had that formal training. I, the one thing I would say Mary Jo is, you know, you like to cook or make beer or you

Leo Laporte (02:08:41):

Paul Thurrott (02:08:42):
Yeah. That's you do have that analytical mind and yeah. Yeah. You, you really, you have done it. You just haven't done it this way.

Mary Jo Foley (02:08:48):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking about it. It's it's a big time commitment. It's like, you have to promise to do like eight to 10 hours of virtual classwork a week. Ooh. Wow. But you know, maybe, maybe in the off period after Microsoft stops announcing a million things, we could do something like it is

Leo Laporte (02:09:04):
<Laugh>. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (02:09:04):
Right. How's November look. Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (02:09:07):
I know. Right. How's your November in December looking, <laugh> the

Leo Laporte (02:09:10):
Problem gonna for you is motivation because right. Unlike somebody who's trying to get a job, you know, well

Mary Jo Foley (02:09:18):
Maybe I'll switch careers, you know, <laugh> maybe I'll stop being a journalist and I'll become like a power platform

Leo Laporte (02:09:23):
Who uses this analyst or

Mary Jo Foley (02:09:26):
Yeah. So office workers, who's the whole spectrum, right? Like you've got people who they've got case studies up of people who like, I was an office manager and I'm like, you know what, I want more pay. I want better money or people who are like, I was working in this like field and I was not really that interested and I wasn't into it. And I thought, if I can do this and make more money, let's see. So they they're portraying it as anybody who just wants to do a career switch. Yeah. It's like any intimidated. Yeah. Yeah. And intimidated by the whole like, oh, it's computers. Right?

Leo Laporte (02:09:57):
Yeah. And you don't, I mean, you wouldn't wanna learn Python on or

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:00):

Paul Thurrott (02:10:01):
There's gonna be a assembly language, right? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:10:04):
No, you don't wanna learn Delphi. You know, I don't <laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:08):
I know, sorry, Delphi Bo Bible author, but I don't wanna learn Delphi <laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:10:13):
So subject, this makes a lot of sense. And honestly, it would be painful for somebody like Paul to do it because it would, it would be like, ah, why are they doing it this way?

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:25):
This is no. And for me, I'm, I'm a clean slate when it comes to this. So I'm you

Leo Laporte (02:10:29):
You've done Excel macros or something like that. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:31):

Leo Laporte (02:10:32):
Never have never, not even that. Oh, you are a clean slate. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Please do this. Maybe

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:38):
There you find a

Paul Thurrott (02:10:38):
Ridiculous. We are.

Leo Laporte (02:10:40):

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:41):

Leo Laporte (02:10:41):
Programming. Isn't like rocket

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:44):
Scientist. I know people have this like thing like programming, right. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:10:47):
I mean, if you're a rocket scientist, you need to program, but yeah, yeah, no

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:53):
I might do it. I might apply and see if I can get in, but not right now. Physics don't matter.

Paul Thurrott (02:10:58):
<Laugh> basic

Mary Jo Foley (02:10:59):

Leo Laporte (02:10:59):
This is honestly what it's I'm gonna bet. It's a be more, it's a bit understanding of business processes.

Mary Jo Foley (02:11:06):
It is. That's what it's more about. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:11:08):
Yep. So you, so that's, and that's where I would really suffer. Cause I don't, you know, but <laugh> business what's that, but I think, yeah, and like maybe I can get Lisa to do it too. It'd be fun if you two dig together. <Laugh> I, she has that kind of mind. She would be a brilliant program.

Mary Jo Foley (02:11:25):
I don't, I bet she would be great at it. I don't think that's I'm

Paul Thurrott (02:11:28):
Like where Charlie, I really think you do. You

Mary Jo Foley (02:11:31):
Is. I, I think logically that's all it's that

Leo Laporte (02:11:34):
Like, sometimes if you ever look at an elevator and go, you know, it shouldn't have gone to that floor first. Yeah. Then you, then you should be a program.

Mary Jo Foley (02:11:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

Leo Laporte (02:11:41):
Could, I can do better.

Mary Jo Foley (02:11:42):
That's the test.

Leo Laporte (02:11:43):
And I am very excited about your developer pick of the week. I must, I must say.

Mary Jo Foley (02:11:49):
Yeah. So our friend Markovich, the CTO of Azure made a very controversial tweet this week. Yes, he, he did. He's been catching a lot of hell for it. <Laugh> speaking of languages. He tweeted it's time to halt starting any new projects and C or C plus plus and use rust

Leo Laporte (02:12:08):

Mary Jo Foley (02:12:09):
For those scenarios agreed where non garbage collected languages are required for the sake of security and reliability. The industry should declare those languages as deprecated. Well, oh, you can imagine how that went over.

Leo Laporte (02:12:23):
I agree though. That's right. Maybe that's a little strong, but he, you know what Lenox just said, we're putting rust in the

Mary Jo Foley (02:12:28):
Kernel. That's what he said. He tweeted that he's like, look what Linux just said, they're putting rust in the kernel of Linux. Right? So today he came back and said, by the way, there is an enormous amount of CNC. Plus plus that's still being maintained and evolved for decades. And last night I just happened to code a feature for handle adding 85,000 lines of CI turtles, NC plus plus to code I've written, you know, like his free time while he's like doing other things.

Leo Laporte (02:12:56):
Well, he is running his novels

Mary Jo Foley (02:12:59):

Leo Laporte (02:12:59):
Playing an instrument and yeah. Wow,

Mary Jo Foley (02:13:01):
Exactly. He said I will bias towards rust for new tools. So yeah, if Markovich said guys like, this is kind of,

Paul Thurrott (02:13:10):
I, so I almost responded to this tweet with, did you following something? No, I didn't. I almost did. I was gonna write him back and be like, I will use rust when you port the entire 1 32 API to

Leo Laporte (02:13:22):
Rust. Well, that's the problem. He's working at a company. That's all C plus plus, right? Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (02:13:26):
Right. He

Leo Laporte (02:13:26):
Is. And C and

Mary Jo Foley (02:13:27):
I mean they invented C plus plus I was being anxious.

Paul Thurrott (02:13:29):
I'm that's what I just said is ludicrous. But that was the point, like

Leo Laporte (02:13:32):
Just to be stupid. Yeah. Right, right. Wow. That's I didn't realize mark done that. I really have a lot of respect for him. You know, a huge respect for rust. I, when I got the, you know, in fact I think I kickstarted the original rust programming language book and I've studied a little bit. It's not for me in the same way that C plus plus wasn't for me, there's a, or Java there it's but I could see for, you know, there's a lot of prologue and a lot of typing I don't want, I don't need to do, but if you're doing, if you're doing big projects and you want it to be reliable, it's so clear that all the security flaws, almost all of them are caused by poor memory management. And it would just be so simple, a strongly typed language would just solve so many problems. But yeah, we'll see. I doubt

Mary Jo Foley (02:14:23):
He'll you've said it guys,

Leo Laporte (02:14:24):
You promise you have this, you know, a hundred million programmers you've learned C plus plus. Right. And are damn it started

Paul Thurrott (02:14:31):
Out. No, no, come on. No offense to C plus plus the writing was on the wall in the nineties.

Leo Laporte (02:14:35):
Oh yeah. It's always been bad. Come,

Mary Jo Foley (02:14:37):
Come on. But it's like mainframes, right? Like they're never gonna go away. Right. It's like C and C plus plus are never gonna go away, but they're gonna be used for more legacy things and there's gonna be a new programming set of kids in town. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:14:49):
Russ and, and it really addresses this really big issue of reliability and security. Yeah. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and you know, this all goes, goes back to an era, you know, these languages go back to an era where you didn't really have to worry about that.

Mary Jo Foley (02:15:05):
Well, Microsoft was working on this problem when they were doing Maddo the operating system Mado they, their idea was let's like go from the ground up and have a more secure, strongly type language, blah, blah, blah, all these things. And then they just threw the whole thing out, like, ah,

Leo Laporte (02:15:20):
Okay. The guy who wrote

Paul Thurrott (02:15:22):
C plus probably from pushback, from people who were too freaked out by it being

Leo Laporte (02:15:25):
New and different. Right. I think the guy who wrote C plus plus is probably in agreement with mark he's famous B store BSRO for saying C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot C plus plus makes it harder. But when you do it blows your whole leg off <laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (02:15:40):

Leo Laporte (02:15:41):
Yeah. That's beautiful. Rust really protects you. It's a little, you know, there's again as just a hobbyist. I wouldn't want to write and rust cuz there's a lot of extra work to make sure everything's

Paul Thurrott (02:15:53):
I don't know anything about Russ, but I would imagine, you know, it's not a managed language like C sharp. So it gives you the power of C plus plus, but a little bit of protection. It sounds a little bit like object Pascal. I'm just saying

Leo Laporte (02:16:04):
It actually is. It's strongly typed, like Pascal it's strongly typed. It's I mean that's really its chief you know, you, it's harder to make a mistake I guess is the point, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> there you go. So, well, wow, good for you, mark. Let's have a beer to celebrate.

Mary Jo Foley (02:16:25):
Yeah. I think you need a beer after that bold statement by Marcus.

Leo Laporte (02:16:28):
Wow. I didn't know. He said that. That's fascinating. Yeah. Wow. Yep.

Mary Jo Foley (02:16:32):
So tomorrow here in the us is a official start of fall. So it's time to start drinking some fall beers. Yes. And like officially drinking them. Firestone Walker in California makes a very famous Russian Imperial stout called parabola. Excellent bourbon barrel aged. Delicious. The, I found this week one that had maple in it. Maple para that's good. Right? Put some maple syrup in, stirred around on the beer pot. Then put it in maple, put maple syrup, bourbon barrels, age it. And you've got like the perfect Mel of dark fudgy, chocolate caramel with maple syrup altogether in a beer. Wow. 10%. Not light, but not the heaviest beer. Good for fall. Good for your like first starting to drink the heavy beers, but wanting to get into it.

Leo Laporte (02:17:27):
Yeah. Maple's the new pumpkin spice

Mary Jo Foley (02:17:32):
Maple better than pumpkin spice.

Leo Laporte (02:17:33):
We like

Paul Thurrott (02:17:33):
Maples my preferred simple syrup if you're making cocktail,

Leo Laporte (02:17:36):
Especially now. Yeah. Do you use maple syrup? Plano maple syrup or

Paul Thurrott (02:17:39):
No, it's a maple simple syrup. So it's sugar

Leo Laporte (02:17:42):
Water. It's

Paul Thurrott (02:17:44):
Maple syrup and water.

Leo Laporte (02:17:45):
Yeah. Nice. So it's a little milder than putting maple syrup. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (02:17:48):
Oh yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:17:48):
Yeah. Nice. Yep. Maple parabola from Firestone Walker, a Russian Imperial stout. I should just have stout for lunch from now on

Mary Jo Foley (02:17:59):
<Laugh> it as many calories probably as your lunch

Paul Thurrott (02:18:03):
During the week. I don't know.

Leo Laporte (02:18:06):
But you know yeah. You sure feel good for the rest of the day?

Mary Jo Foley (02:18:10):
<Laugh> yeah, you would. You would especially a big mug of it. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:18:13):
You big mug

Mary Jo Foley (02:18:14):
For the day.

Paul Thurrott (02:18:15):
I think what you're referring to is your be asleep and would be having good

Leo Laporte (02:18:19):
Days. <Laugh> I okay, next Wednesday. I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna get six pack. See what happens. Maple parabola keeping in the fridge. I'll have one every Wednesday

Paul Thurrott (02:18:27):
Paralysis maple

Leo Laporte (02:18:29):

Mary Jo Foley (02:18:30):
Maple Persis.

Leo Laporte (02:18:34):
Alright. Kids. We've done it again. Concluded this thrilling gripping edition of windows weekly. What fun? It's fun when Paul isn't too unhappy and he's like, he's got something new to play with something exciting. That's fun. I like that. Nothing

Paul Thurrott (02:18:55):
A busy day yesterday.

Leo Laporte (02:18:56):
You had no Theran today. It was, it was Theran free.

Paul Thurrott (02:18:59):
I have issues with this release of windows, but I wanted to focus on the nuts and bolts of

Mary Jo Foley (02:19:04):
Good. It's not the bad and the ugly, not so

Paul Thurrott (02:19:06):
Much the good, but just, just the what people need to know.

Leo Laporte (02:19:08):
That's nice. Yeah. That's good.

Paul Thurrott (02:19:09):
You don't need to know that. I'm insane. You, you,

Leo Laporte (02:19:12):
You know that <laugh> Thurrott T H U R R OG. Good.Com. His books The field guide windows 10 the windows 11 field guide on its way.

Paul Thurrott (02:19:27):
Yes, yes, yes. I just, I work on this every day. I know it sounds like it's never happening. Oh, he does. It's literally it's over 225 pages long. It will

Leo Laporte (02:19:35):
Happen, right? He does.

Paul Thurrott (02:19:37):
Ugh. It's only a small little part of it too.

Leo Laporte (02:19:40):
Bit part Mary Jo Foley. She's at all about or ZD net blog. And we, we really, between the two of 'em, I don't think there's anything that happens in the world of windows that that they don't know, not a, not a tree falls in the Microsoft forest <laugh> but they aren't underneath it, catching it, ready to feed it back to us. So please come back here. We do the show every Wednesday at 11:00 AM Pacific 2:00 PM. Eastern 1800 UTC means you can tune in at live dot TWIT TV at that time and see us. If you're watching live you can chat with us, live at IRC, do If you're watching live, you'll also get all the commercials. Maybe you're thinking, do I need all those commercials? And maybe I'm saying, no, you don't for ad free versions of all of the shows, including this one.

Leo Laporte (02:20:30):
It's not ad free life. We haven't figured out a way how to do that yet. I guess we can stop play music for a couple of minutes and come back, but that's not really a good solution. So you'd have to listen to it as a download, but you can join club TWIT. And I tell you, this is a heck of a deal. So it's seven bucks a month, a couple of lattes a month, one hot buttered quant a month, a six pack of maple parabola. No, not even that. Probably one can maple parabola a lot of a month. And what do you get? You get ad free versions of everything. Every show that's on the playlist here, windows weekly, Mac break weekly this week in Google. This week in tech, all of those, you also get some special stuff that isn't available on the regular downloads.

Leo Laporte (02:21:14):
You get, for instance, Mr. Thurrott here does hands on windows. Great show. I think that's kind of a must. If you listen to windows weekly, Micah sergeant's hands on Mac. We have the untitled Linux show with Jonathan Bennett, Stacy Higginbotham's book club that GI fizz FIS with Dick Beed Bartolo. It's where we launch new shows. This week, weekend space came out of the club, cuz the club subsidize it. You also get access to the discord, which is really a great community of fun people. It's it's a great chat environment. And it's not just about the shows. I mean, we talk about everything, everything sci-fi software I'm very active in the coding section. We have a let's play section where I've done some gaming. We have a Minecraft server and a whole bunch, whole bunch of stuff, a lot of benefits there.

Leo Laporte (02:22:05):
We're trying to do more all the time amp, Pruitts our community manager there. He really makes it fun. And then of course there's a TWITt plus feed, which gives you all the stuff that happens before and after shows that we don't put in the podcast seven bucks a month and you get all that. If you listen to these shows regularly, you really should be a member go to TWITt. It also really helps us going forward, cuz winter is coming. If you know what I mean? I do know you mean you, what? I mean it definitely a big deal. So please that's my pitch. TWIT. We have on-demand shows after the fact for free always, always add supported at the website, There's a, you can subscribe in your podcast player. There's a YouTube channel as well. So lots of ways to get the show for free. We always wanna make sure that's the case as well, but if you want Paul's show, you can, I should mention at the same site, you can also just, I just want ends on windows. I just wanna hear that that's $2 in 99 cents a month. So you can just do that, but that's just the one show again. TWITtter, TV slash club TWIT. Thank you everybody. Really great show. Very excited to go home and try 1122 H two on all my PCs.

Leo Laporte (02:23:24):
What could go wrong? What could possibly go? <Laugh> have a great week. We'll see you next time. A window's weekly. Bye. Bye.

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