Windows Weekly Episode 781 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word.
Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for windows weekly. Paul Thora, Mary Jo Foley are here. Where's a little confusion in the windows insider program. We'll talk about that. Did I just say windows? I think, I think I did farewell to internet Explorer after 27 years and a summary of all the big gaming announcements coming from Microsoft. This is E three week and Paul Theros on it, actually. Mary Jo's on it. Next on windows weekly. It's true podcasts. You love

Mary Jo Foley (00:00:33):
From people you trust.

Leo Laporte (00:00:36):
This is TWiT it's TWiT TWiT.

Leo Laporte (00:00:43):
This is windows weekly with Paul Thra and Mary Jo Foley episode 781 recorded Wednesday, June 15th, 2022. The balloon store windows weekly is brought to you by Intel orchestrated by the experts at C D w to deliver multi-layer security and remote manageability with the Intel vPro platform powered by 12th generation Intel core processors. Learn more at client tell client and by trade coffee. Right now, trade is offering new subscribers, a total of $30 off your first order. Plus free shipping. When you go to drink, that's more than 40 cups of coffee free. Get started by taking their quiz and let trade find you a coffee you'll love and buy collide. Get endpoint management that puts the user first. Visit to learn more and activate a free 14 day trial today. No credit card required. It's time for windows weekly. The show where we cover the latest news from Microsoft with these lovely people here, Mary Jo Foley, all about or ZD net blog. And of course,

Paul Thurrott (00:02:00):
Paul thro,

Leo Laporte (00:02:03):
Thro.Com do not blame them for the new album art. That's not their fault. It's mine.

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:09):

Paul Thurrott (00:02:11):
Yes. Disappointment. Yes. Do we have to start fighting now? I usually get along with Mary Jo really? Well,

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:14):
No, we're gonna fight on today's show. It

Leo Laporte (00:02:16):

Paul Thurrott (00:02:17):
Tomp apply.

Leo Laporte (00:02:18):
Yeah. That there is a, that is, it is tug of war. That is

Paul Thurrott (00:02:23):
Yeah. A back and forth

Leo Laporte (00:02:23):
Of ideas or Dyna. It was a dynamic, more dynamic show than it actually is,

Paul Thurrott (00:02:27):
Is what I we're trying to position why we're not. It's more of a, it's more of ALU in a couch and drink a beer

Leo Laporte (00:02:34):
Kind of a show, but it's a love fist.

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:36):
We're the dynamic tool of windows guys.

Leo Laporte (00:02:38):
That's true. That's a very good point.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:43):
Oh boy. So much.

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:44):
He's Robin though. He's Robin

Leo Laporte (00:02:46):
And you're Batman. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:48):
Batman's fine. As long as I'm a little bit rock and roll and you're a little bit country.

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:52):
No, no kidding.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:53):
All this Donnie and Marie. No. Well

Leo Laporte (00:02:56):
We, this was the intended I mean initially when we were first discussing the album art, we went through a lot of, you know, different ideas 

Paul Thurrott (00:03:07):
For it. How do we Delan these two idiots?

Leo Laporte (00:03:10):
Well, this was one, this was, this was one idea. I'm sure it was. I don't, I don't know if this would've worked because it's kind of more animated, but I just, I feel <laugh>,

Paul Thurrott (00:03:20):
We've definitely done that

Leo Laporte (00:03:21):
Slap fight. We have slap fight

Mary Jo Foley (00:03:23):

Leo Laporte (00:03:24):
And no, we just you've done that. You know, we're redoing all our album art the way it works with the, we, this design team at clutch. They're good. They say, okay. Words. Just say words about the show. Tell us about the show. So as Paul he's married, Jo, she has a gong. He rants, maybe I portrayed it as, as more dynamic than it

Paul Thurrott (00:03:44):
Really is. Sounds like a, like a Sunday night animation show on

Leo Laporte (00:03:47):
Fox. It does.

Mary Jo Foley (00:03:50):
I haven't used a gong in a long time.

Leo Laporte (00:03:52):
No, it's true me. So maybe we're trying to encourage you. I don't

Paul Thurrott (00:03:54):
Know. See how it goes today though.

Leo Laporte (00:03:56):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Paul, I did notice at the top of our notes, a little angry emoji, bright red,

Paul Thurrott (00:04:04):
But what's interesting about the anger is that this comes from Mary Jo.

Leo Laporte (00:04:07):
Oh, it does. All right. Yep. So let's start with the windows insider program.

Mary Jo Foley (00:04:14):
That's where is, is coming from?

Leo Laporte (00:04:17):
This is where the anger begins. OK.

Mary Jo Foley (00:04:20):
<Laugh> so where to even begin on this topic this week, Microsoft kind of out of the blue, came out with a new beta build of windows 11 and in it, it had the tabbed file Explorer <laugh> so the reason is for

Paul Thurrott (00:04:39):
Some people,

Mary Jo Foley (00:04:40):
For some people, right? A subset of insiders, the reason this is troubling is it was provided to people who thought they had the RTM final bits, right? Like this is, this is the 22 H two final bits group. Yep. The very show

Paul Thurrott (00:05:00):
Who, why would anyone think such a thing? Microsoft never says that they, they said

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:03):

Paul Thurrott (00:05:04):

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:05):
They said it, right? Didn't they say

Paul Thurrott (00:05:07):
They did. They literally said it in the public forum. Yep. This is 20 page two. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:12):

Paul Thurrott (00:05:12):
They asked, they put it in the release preview

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:14):
And they asked, well, they haven't put the tabbed file Explorer in the release

Paul Thurrott (00:05:17):
Preview. No, no. I mean, but they put the bill in there. I mean, right. Listen, we have to, we have to look for signs in the sky. Like we're read, I like put Monds or something, but all of those signs pointed to the same thing. And like I said, they did in fact say publicly, this is the final build of 22 H two.

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:35):
They did. And also started soliciting corporations to test it because they said, this is the, this is 22 H two. Like you should start testing this now. And then suddenly tab file Explorer shows up in the beta channel has not yet shown up in released preview, but I'm assuming it will given what's happening, which implies that it's going to be in 22 H two.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:57):
Right? The thing is Mary Jo, at least we should at least admit that they tested this feature for months and months. They got all kinds of feedback on it. They know it's reli, oh, wait, it debuted three days earlier. <Laugh> right. Three, no, four days. It was four days earlier. I don't, this is an unprecedented, even for, even given what I see as a Eness in the winners insider program, this is an unprecedented event, you know, for, we know they're gonna fix bugs, you know, and we know we've talked about this all the time. They're gonna add features, you know, we know this, but, but, but

Mary Jo Foley (00:06:35):
<Laugh>, but you know, but so the reason, the reason we're bringing this up as our top story today and, and wanna talk about this is we feel like we understood the rules for the insider program as they've changed over time. But we felt like we had a pretty good understanding of how this worked until this week where I'm like, okay, somebody said to me, do you think this is weird? I said, I thought I understood how insider builds work till till this week. And I do not understand it anymore. I don't,

Paul Thurrott (00:07:04):
I don't, I would say, I would say slightly different. Like I I've come to an uncomfortable middle ground with how the insider program works. Cause I don't actually, I don't understand how it works. I, I, I, I don't remember if I saw this or said this last week, but I would call the dev channel. The experimental channel. Yes. Because it's about experimenting. Right? Agreed. And that's, that's fine. I guess it's not the way rings or channels were ever before until about a year ago or whatever they did this, but mm-hmm <affirmative> okay. Fine. It's it's not tied to a particular windows version. Okay. Okay, cool. But, but really beta and release channel are not release. Preview channel are not tied to a specific windows version anymore either. They just never really said that the beta channel is for features that are a little closer to release.

Paul Thurrott (00:07:51):
And I guess release preview is for stuff that's even a little bit closer than that to release like it, you used to be able to say release preview channel was for the currently shipping version of windows mm-hmm <affirmative> and that you're gonna test updates before they appear in windows, update on a patch Tuesday or whatever. And you're gonna test app updates before they go live for everyone else and like, okay, cool. That's a, that's a real conservative way to test windows for some people that might be exactly what they're looking for. But now it's not really the, it's not that at all right now because the release preview has the next version of windows 11. It's not on the current version anymore. So the, the rationale or the, the description of each of these things is so vague. Yeah. That I think they would argue to us if they ever said anything clearly that this is why we can do things like we're doing right now, because we never did say this is a specific version of windows. So who cares what you think about this or

Mary Jo Foley (00:08:45):
Whatever. Right. So my, no, my understanding up until this week was dev channel was experimental. There were no promises that if a feature was in dev channel, it would ever ship. It might, it might not ever ship. You can't call them on something. Getting pulled, right. Beta was supposed to be closer to a representation of the next version of windows. The next feature update of windows, not a hundred percent, like there's still a chance something could change, but release preview was supposed to be, if it's in release preview, this is the next feature update to windows. So now if this feature tab file Explorer moves into release preview, it's going to be, it's gonna throw off this whole way of, of people thinking about the rings. I feel like, and

Paul Thurrott (00:09:29):
It's a fairly major change. I think that's why it

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:31):
Is a very major change. Yes it is

Paul Thurrott (00:09:34):
Here. Here's I think, I feel like I just did this last week. Let me, let me briefly defend Microsoft because the,

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:40):
See, this is why we're doing the tug of war. Cause I'm not defending them at all on

Paul Thurrott (00:09:43):
This. Well, I'm just I'm really

Leo Laporte (00:09:46):
Press it. I, I realize

Paul Thurrott (00:09:47):
This is the devil's advocate kind of a thing. So <affirmative> look, I don't agree with it. You can't

Leo Laporte (00:09:53):
Even do it. He

Paul Thurrott (00:09:54):
Can't do it. I know. No, no, no. But no, no. Well the, the communication part of it is indefensible. They're not communicating. They're not communicating at all. Let alone clearly. It's it's that I find to be reprehensible as always, however, it, I guess it's okay for Microsoft. Like in other words, let's say Microsoft finalizes, some version of windows 11, you know, 22 issues. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> it's final. This is the thing. And it's, it's going through some trajectory where it comes out and everyone gets it in between that. And the final release. If they updated the media player app or the I'm trying to think of something. I notepad. What other notepad apps? Yeah. Like a notepad actually. Notepad's a great stupid

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:33):
App. Wait a minute. Hold on.

Paul Thurrott (00:10:34):
<Laugh> stupid app. <Laugh> I was trying to think of other stupid apps. Like not, not notepad.

Leo Laporte (00:10:38):
You were the one who said notepad. Mary Jo, not

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:41):
I, and then he said, or another stupid app? No, I was

Paul Thurrott (00:10:44):
Leading my, I said media center or another stupid app. Okay. Like like apps that come with windows 11, like clip champ or Xbox or whatever. There you

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:54):

Paul Thurrott (00:10:55):

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:55):
No one would say example.

Paul Thurrott (00:10:57):

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:57):

Paul Thurrott (00:10:58):
Nobody would say a thing. See,

Leo Laporte (00:11:00):
No war folks.

Paul Thurrott (00:11:02):
Nobody would say a thing. Right,

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:04):
Exactly. Because it, because those are separate apps. Right?

Paul Thurrott (00:11:09):
<Laugh> but why? Well, but they're bundled with the op episode file explores an app. I mean, why can't they update file Explorer? That's not really. I'm just, I'm not again. I'm not, I'm not, <laugh> saying I agree you this, but this is the, but it's an app.

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:23):
I know this is the thinking, right? This is the thing. It's an app. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:11:26):
This is why they made all the changes to how they update windows. So they can do this kind of thing

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:32):
Now. But you don't get file. Do you get file Explorer through the store? No. Right. Or do you no.

Paul Thurrott (00:11:37):

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:38):
You don't. No. No.

Paul Thurrott (00:11:39):
Okay. No, but, okay. So, but here's now I'm going to contradict myself because I feel like that would be how they might defend it. Yeah. However, here's, here's the problem. If you look at what file Explorer was in the last version of windows 10, before windows 11 came out and you compared that to the version of file Explorer that shipped in windows 11 last October, basically it's, it's the same application, but like so much else in windows 11 has this new simpler front end. Right. They got rid of the old ribbon style UI. They have a, a command bar. Now it's a different, you know, whatever it looks different, fine. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> you go to sub things like the folder options, dialogue. It's the same classic, 1 32 interface we've had for years and years and years. So typical surface level lipstick on the pig type thing.

Paul Thurrott (00:12:24):
That's what we got in windows 11. Okay. But then you go to windows 1122 H two, as we knew it. Oh, those many, five or six days ago. <Laugh> and they made navigation changes to the way that the navigation bar works the way that quick access works. They're calling that view home on the side. Now they made these changes. So that one of the things I just wrote about in my new and 22 H two series was how file Explorer had changed and then three or four days went by and it changed again. So not only because it's not just, it's not just tabs, that's an easy thing to describe. Yeah. That build also brings navigational changes to the structure of that navigation bar and the side of file Explorer. You're changing that again. You changed it once in October, you changed it again for 22 H two in June, and then later in June, you changed it again. <Laugh> like that's yeah. That shows a lack of planning and strategy and parental or adult oversight. I think that's the issue I have with this. Like, I, I, I respect the fact that they can, and maybe even should update a thing that is a system component, like file Explorer when, and if they can, but they just did it TWiTce in like the same month.

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:39):
Yeah. Mm

Paul Thurrott (00:13:41):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I, I, it's just, it's it's a little scatterbrained to me.

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:45):

Paul Thurrott (00:13:46):

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:47):
I feel like, yeah. And I feel like the other part of this is we're kind of going back to windows eight, thinking in some scary ways, like, no, we windows eight, right? Windows eight. They said, you know what? People want updates to their operating system all the time that like, look at the phone, that's how people like it. They wanna get updates all the time. They they're looking for updates. They want them. So that's not true on a PC, especially on a work PC, right? Like people who are in businesses, they wanna have something very predictable and they wanna know exactly what is gonna be in that thing. Right. And they don't wanna be, they don't wanna have a situation where they roll something out. And then like two months later, it's like, oh no, actually it looks completely different. And we didn't know that it was going to right.

Paul Thurrott (00:14:31):
<Laugh> aside from the sheer difficulty of moving from one version of windows to another back in the day, which is the reason no one normal ever did that. They were scared by it because those things often went so bad. One of the biggest problems with the windows upgrade is that, you know what, where you move my cheese kind of syndrome, like Microsoft wood literally, and this is, was on purpose would move things in the start venue or in other interfaces, just so people doing support for those systems could look over someone's shoulder and say, oh, that's windows 2000 or windows, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> Vista or whatever. That, that's what this feels like. We're randomly shuffling where items are in a very crucial productivity focused day to day application, like file Explorer. That's, you know, we're not adding like podcast support or something to the media player app who cares. This is, this is like, this is like a crucial system element. Like, why would you screw with that this often? Yeah. It just doesn't make any, it just doesn't make any sense.

Mary Jo Foley (00:15:34):
Yeah. And yet the other thing that would help we're trying to give constructive criticism here, not just bash, right? Sure, sure. At least we're trying to, in theory another thing that would help is some kind of an explanation, if you do change something like that, why? Right. Right. Like when you write the blog post, you just don't say, here it is guys here's tab, file Explorer. And all the navigation changes. You have a section where you say, and here's why we're changing this again. We found that people couldn't navigate this. Right. People hated this or love this. And

Paul Thurrott (00:16:04):
Oh, that must have, like, they must have done that. There must have been a 3000 word blog post at explaining great detail. Is it what they were doing and why they did it there be right. No, there isn't. Yeah. What there is, is a 300 word blog post that says nothing. That's all boil plate code with a single sentence that says, Hey, by the way, bringing tabs back, let us know what other tabs features you might want. Tabs features. What, what does that mean? What does that mean? Does that mean yep. Does that mean tabs features for the tabs and file Explorer? Or does that mean, you're thinking about bringing tabs to other applications and windows like paint or notepad, right. Or whatever. Right. There's no way to know because they can't write clearly <laugh> they don't, these things get like regurgitated out in a heartbeat and they don't make any sense. I don't, we shouldn't have to parse something like this.

Mary Jo Foley (00:16:50):
No. Right. We've gone from extreme to extreme. Right? Like you're joking, like the 3000 words Synsky blog post. And now we get the 300 words, like, is there a happy medium somewhere? Or can we have more than one blog post? Can we have here's the features? And here's why we did this. Right. Like explain it to people because I would like to hear, yeah. What we're doing now, because we weren't doing this before. Right. <laugh> we weren't adding primary, big, new features through once something at RTM, we didn't suddenly get a big, giant new feature added. We got like smaller updates fixes like little tweaks. Right. That's how they usually yeah. Through cumulative updates all the way up until it actually starts rolling out to the mainstream. That's how that worked suddenly. We're like, oh wait, is tab, file Explorer, actually gonna be part of our TM. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:17:37):
Mary Jo. That was, that was almost a rant. I know,

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:39):
I, I didn't let you have a word edge wise. I'm I'm trying to live up to

Paul Thurrott (00:17:43):

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:43):
Of war thing.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:44):
Yeah, yeah. But yeah. <Laugh> no, that's no, that's fine. I feel like we've lost two important things since windows 10. And, and if you think back to when windows 10 was new and we were still trying to figure out what was going on, and there were bad things like windows is a service, which we absolutely did not understand and was not explained clearly in the beginning. No. However, right. The two things I really liked about that transition were a return to transparency. We're gonna develop this thing out in the open, give you a chance to provide feedback and impact the product, which they made a big show of talking about. Every time they added stuff based on feedback, they don't really do that anymore. They talk about feedback, but that's what they did during windows eight. They talk about it. You're not seeing a lot of feedback related stuff happening.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:23):
In fact, what you're seeing is a lot of feedback being, just being ignored. But the other thing is, was a return to desktop, computer centricity or whatever you wanna call that mm-hmm <affirmative> windows eight skewed way too far into the touch. First mobile first stuff in a world where 99, whatever percent of people were using traditional form factor computers mm-hmm <affirmative>. And they saw very quickly the, their partners, PC makers, customers, enterprise, and individuals all complained. This is too much. It doesn't make sense. This thing doesn't work on the computers we actually use. So you flash forward, what are we now? Six, seven years later. Guess what? We're all still using those computers guys. No, we're not running around with tablets, but there, you said a return to kind of the windows eight kind of thinking you're right. About what you said, but what I thought you meant by that was this kind of return to, we know best it has, it should be mobile centric.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:13):
These things are not feedback driven. It's, there's something in Microsoft where they've looked out at what's popular in the world and they've said, we gotta be mobile. This is gotta, this needs to work. And, and, and be like iOS or Android or Chrome OS or whatever, it has to be simplified mobile focused. And it's like, guys, we're still using those computers. Like I don't, most people who have touch capabilities on a laptop. I bet never use it. Or don't even know it's there, you know? Right. We're still using mice and track pads and keyboards and word and Excel and these big applications. That's what we do. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and I, I feel like it's just like, remember that thing that didn't work in 2012, let's do that again.

Leo Laporte (00:19:58):
Still not working. Right. Not it's crazy. You know, when I brought this new Dell I had the choice between touch and not, and I get, I didn't get touch and I don't miss it. Of course it's a little

Paul Thurrott (00:20:07):
Far away from, you know what, so I, I gotta, so I, I would've, this is one thing Mary and Jo and I would've argued about years ago. I, Mary Jo was very much against touch on a laptop or whatever. And I used to always say, look, it doesn't hurt you if it's there, you know? And you may find that you add touch to the series of things. You, you know, you use a tracked, use gestures in a ed use page up and page on maybe some days you'll sit there and scroll through a document. Yeah. I made this argument. I will tell you today that I I was so wrong about this and it, it is the, and for the, and for the stupidest possible reason, because this is what happens to me every single day. I do this every day. I, I not on this computer, cuz this is non-touch whatever big screen, but I'll go lay up on the bed or lay on a couch, open a laptop, just type it away. And it's like a hair on my computer and I'm like, and it doesn't blow away. <Laugh> so then I put my finger on the screen and I go to swipe it outta the way. And I delete some text or I move something around and I'm like, you know what? I don't wanna be able to move stuff on the screen with my finger. <Laugh> like, I, I don't actually do that very often. And when I do it to do something else, it screws something up.

Leo Laporte (00:21:18):

Paul Thurrott (00:21:20):
Yep. So

Leo Laporte (00:21:20):
I, it heard your first people use two in one though, like a surface pro and you maybe even you take the keyboard off that's when touch is useful, no one takes the keyboard. Nobody takes the keyboard off, which really, really makes you wonder aware. There are people who do, there are people who do makes obviously

Paul Thurrott (00:21:36):
People, of course, there's people who do everything. That's like, we can't please, everybody. Like this is the, yeah, of course there are people that we're gonna talk about windows and arm. There are people who will defend that. We're gonna talk about the stupid thing they do in their teams. There're already people defending that there's people for everything. Do we do we have to, can we get off of this? Everyone's a winner thing.

Leo Laporte (00:21:56):
But, but what about your, what about your contention? That it there's no harm in putting touch in there if you don't use it sort of. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:22:05):
Except it makes you might

Leo Laporte (00:22:06):
Use it. It affects

Paul Thurrott (00:22:07):
Depends. Right? It depends.

Leo Laporte (00:22:09):
It adds to the weight and the cost, right? It does. It does. Yeah. Yes it does.

Paul Thurrott (00:22:12):
Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I, I, yeah, I look this, that there are people who like everything is just a fact. I mean, I, one of the things I've been doing lately, I talked about this last week, upgrading all my computers to 22 H two. Since I talked about that, I went on and upgraded some older computers to 22 H two. One of those computers is the surface book. Two surface book, two, the computers, basically all in the screens. It's a little top heavy, but it's a laptop. You can take the screen off. I gotta help you. I don't know why anyone would do that. <Laugh> but, but one of the kind of fun things about that computer is it, it can lay on a bed and it doesn't get all hot and everything because the base isn't where the computer is. <Laugh> right. The heat is all dispensing out of the top of the screen.

Paul Thurrott (00:22:55):
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And that's actually kind of cool. Now, does that mean that all computers should be designed that way and all computers should have touched? No, no, no. <Laugh> like, no, absolutely not. Because honestly, the central point of that computer that you can detach the screen and turn into a really thick, left, or just a clipboard thing if you want is used by so few people, in fact, it was used by so people, Microsoft stop offering it. But in isolation, I sort of appreciate that thing because I use a lot of laptops and laptops get hot when you use 'em on a, a non flat hard surface, they just do. Cuz, but like I said, we, we can't, you can't just please everybody. It's impossible. That's why the new Jurassic park movie is so terrible, but that's,

Leo Laporte (00:23:37):

Paul Thurrott (00:23:38):
It it's I, you know, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I'm just, I'm getting to like, you know, this is like, this is the, this is the, this is how TWiTtter works. You could make any contention on TWiTtter. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and you'll always find someone who says, no, you're wrong. This is yeah. You know, and every single day, and it could be the smallest, most innocuous thing in the world. It could be the most important, you know, ideal imaginable. It doesn't matter what it is so we can debate all these little things. But I guess I would just say in general, most people use a traditional form factor laptop, and they don't need touch <laugh> that doesn't mean it's not good for some people. It doesn't mean that there aren't people who like it, it just means that in general, most people don't need it to want it. And I feel like that's the target you gotta aim for. There can be options for those people who want the other thing and let them all compete in the open market. I can tell you surface lap or surface pro or those form factors. Not the most popular form factor. It's not even, not even close, not even close. So yeah, they're out there if you want 'em but maybe not inflict your needs on the rest of us because most people don't need those things.

Mary Jo Foley (00:24:48):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>

Leo Laporte (00:24:50):
Okay. <Laugh> and they said there was no tug of war in this show.

Paul Thurrott (00:24:55):
And then we fall in the mud in the middle and it's hilarious.

Mary Jo Foley (00:24:59):
The one thing we both do agree on is we feel like the insider program and the windows team needs to come forward and do some explaining about how do the rings work these days. And secondly, how are you rolling out features to people? Like how, how are people supposed to know when a bunch of features are just gonna show up in a cumulative update? You

Paul Thurrott (00:25:20):

Mary Jo Foley (00:25:21):
Promised feature update,

Paul Thurrott (00:25:22):
Right? You just promised you were gonna switch from one feature update two feature updates per year to one, but you also said he, he, he just kidding. We can add features anytime. Ha. That's funny guys. We need to, we need a plan. We need to know.

Mary Jo Foley (00:25:36):
We need more predictability.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:37):
When if yeah, this is, it's not cute. It's not, it's not good. Like we, we agreed that <laugh> we agree that windows should be more nimble than having to release updates as part of an operating system update. One of the things that just came out of this apple thing, it's like I was watching all the post WWDC stuff and reading things. And one of 'em was like new features that are coming to apple music. What <laugh>, why would that be part of a WWC briefing thing? I, I, I guess because apple music is part of the PLA that's stupid. Like that's just stupid. That's the old way of doing things. I, I do agree with that, but I, there needs to be, there needs to be some line and this is not, this is not just like individual preference. You, most of Microsoft's revenues and customers are business customers. They need transparency. They need a roadmap. They need to know what's happening and what could happen. And when it's, it's a simple, obvious thing. And I it's amazing to me that this many years later, we're still having this conversation.

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:37):
You know what I wonder if the reason they're not saying it is because they don't know. And they <laugh> like, they they're like, Hey, you know, have we get enough features to package 'em up into a cumulative update and when should we throw that out there? Because if you promise people we're gonna do this TWiTce a year or we're gonna do this three times a year and you don't, you get dinged. Right? Like you're like, oh, they said TWiTce a year and they haven't done it TWiTce a year. Right. So

Paul Thurrott (00:27:03):

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:04):
That could be why

Paul Thurrott (00:27:06):
<Laugh> I, if you look, if you're gonna disappoint people, do it because you didn't disrupt things. Okay. Yeah. You're, you're creating a platform here. We're not this. Isn't like a balloon store. It's not supposed to be fun. It's

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:18):
A balloon store,

Leo Laporte (00:27:20):
Whatever I've discovered.

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:21):
It's not supposed to be fun. I think I've said that before. It's not supposed to

Leo Laporte (00:27:25):
Be fun. Do you have balloons? It's

Paul Thurrott (00:27:26):

Leo Laporte (00:27:26):
Supposed to be fune.

Paul Thurrott (00:27:28):
I don't even know what that came from. Like a party place. You know what I mean? Like

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:31):
This is party store.

Paul Thurrott (00:27:32):
It's not an environment for fun. We're getting worked done here. Don't get in the way, you know, like that should be job one. It should be like, what's the Hippocratic oath, you know, do no harm.

Leo Laporte (00:27:41):
Yeah. First do no harm. You

Paul Thurrott (00:27:42):
Should treat. If you're a create platforms, that's job. Don't do no harm for job. One do no harm.

Leo Laporte (00:27:48):
Right, right,

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:50):

Leo Laporte (00:27:51):
<Laugh> all

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:52):
Right. Thank you. Okay. Now there's a request for the new logo with Paul and a balloon shop. <Laugh> you're not gonna live that one down buddy.

Leo Laporte (00:28:01):
Welcome to the, into the store, baby. This is it, man. They're in the balloon store now.

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:08):

Leo Laporte (00:28:11):
All right. Let's take a little teeny weeny timeout because I want to talk about our sponsor and then we'll get back with more windows news. Our show today brought to you by the fabulous folks at Intel orchestrated by the experts at C D w today's bumpy hybrid work model bumpy is the least of it. The knowledgeable people at CDW really get what it takes to keep your business productive and protected. They understand that while your needs may change securing your hybrid workforce, never will. That's why CDW works with Intel and can help design a secure remote management solution that works for you with Intel's vPro platform powered by 12th generation Intel core processors and custom configured by CDW. You get hardware based multilayer security that will protect against threats, but Intel's vPro platform. Doesn't stop there. It gives you peace of mind for your business and business class performance.

Leo Laporte (00:29:13):
All in one. Now let's talk remote manageability, no matter where your hybrid workforce is working management can access control and fix devices from anywhere, even outside the firewall, which means no matter where your teams are working from you're still in control. And when you're in control, you can relax because with Intel's vPro platform powered by 12th gen Intel core processors, your team will be more productive and power through disruptions, letting you and your business focus on other things for secure remote management and security trust Intel vPro. And it orchestration by CDW people who get it learn more at client. We thank of so much for their support of windows weekly, back to the tug of war. <Laugh> two, not one, but two new builds last week who wants to take this one? Paul, is that you

Paul Thurrott (00:30:15):
These aren't super important. So yeah, I can do this really quickly, in fact, and there was a new build today as well. So there were, well, actually one of them's important. It's the thing we just talked about. So they released, you know, 22, 6 21 is the build number that is 22 H two. They released 22, 6 21, 1 60 to the beta channel. That's the thing that brought the file, Explorer tabs, and a couple of other small file Explorer features. I believe, yes, they also released a build to dev channel with the same file Explorer changes as well as some dynamic widgets on the task bar, which, you know, again may or may not ever make their way to windows. I mean, let's hope not. They're already cluttering this thing up enough as it is. And then today we got a new build, but it's basically just fixes by the way in the, I should say, this is a dev channel build in the footnotes to this build.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:09):
There is an update to Microsoft's official description to what the dev channel is. And it says the dev channel receives builds that represent long lead work from our engineers with features and experiences that may never get released as we try out different concepts and get feedback. It's important to remember that the builds released to the dev channel should not be seen as being, he adds matched to any specific release of windows. And the features included may change over time, be removed or B he adds replaced in the insider builds, or it may never be released beyond windows insiders to general customers. So two spell two gram mistakes in there, but whatever this is a slightly tweaked version of what they've said for a while now about the dev channel. And this is what we talked about at the beginning, which is that the dev channel doesn't match to a specific windows version or whatever. I wish there was an updated explanation of what beta and release preview word here mm-hmm <affirmative> and there is not because that's the part of the part of the confusion.

Mary Jo Foley (00:32:11):
I didn't even think it was updated. Like when I, when I read that, I'm like, what's different about this

Paul Thurrott (00:32:16):
<Laugh> I think they added the two grammar mistakes. I don't know. I don't know what they're doing. <Laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:32:21):
You know, good to know <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:32:24):
I don't know. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:32:25):
Paul's like, that's what happens when

Paul Thurrott (00:32:26):

Leo Laporte (00:32:27):
Yeah. When I read these things, that's the only thing I notice. Grammatical errors.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:32):
Yeah. Yeah. So guys, come

Leo Laporte (00:32:33):
On, edit this

Paul Thurrott (00:32:34):
Care a little care a little bit, a little bit, a little bit,

Leo Laporte (00:32:36):

Mary Jo Foley (00:32:36):
Know? No. And then there's the other weird quirk, which they've talked about before, but it's gonna happen this time as well sometimes. Yeah, because because they're testing a, the same feature in dev and beta, right. And they're doing it with a subset, like the AB testing thing, people in, in the beta channel might get the feature before people in the dev channel get it, which is really weird. Right. Actually

Paul Thurrott (00:33:01):
That way. Right? Yeah. Let me beat this to death again, because I've made this argument in the past. And I think this is the big thing to remember about the windows insider program. You're asking people to set aside a computer, right. To use, use pre-release software that may or may not ever see its way to fruition or whatever that you're asking them to test it. You're asking them to provide feedback that hopefully through providing feedback, they impact some coming feature or some coming version of windows. And you've provided them with three channels from which to choose. And they have really vague descriptions. Now they used to map to specific windows versions or whatever, and now they kind of don't. But I've described in Mary Jo agrees that the dev channel could be thought of as the experimental channel, you have agreed to put a machine on the dev channel to experiment with these new features, but you're not gonna get all of the new features and wait.

Paul Thurrott (00:33:50):
And now you're telling me that someone who did not agree to be in the experimental channel is gonna get some features before me, in some cases, are you kidding me? Like this is a, a gross misunderstanding of what this agreement between Microsoft and these people is. And I feel that they are harming mentally harming. I guess they're biggest fans in doing this. The, the people look at what the choices are. They make the choice they want, and then they're not getting the thing that Microsoft promises yeah. Testing has no business in the insider program.

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:20):
Yeah. I don't understand why it's there. I mean, I know they want people to have a good experience, but if you're agreeing to be an insider, you have to be assuming some level of risk and some level of technicality where if something goes wrong, you can fix it or have some ideas how to fix it. Right. I saw a guy yesterday on TWiTtter, say the reason I dropped out of the insider program was this AB testing thing. Like, that's not what I'm here for, right?

Paul Thurrott (00:34:42):
No, listen, how deflating is it? I want to test this co I wanna see this stuff. I wanna see future features. I wanna test features that may not even make it into windows. I'm excited by that. Yep. And then the announcement comes like, oh, nice. There's a new build. What we got file explor apps. Awesome. I've been dying to test that feature. I wanted sets to happen to windows 10. Oh, let me read all about it. Oh, it's only coming to what <laugh> like, what is that? If it's only coming tot testers, did she go to dev channel testers? That that's the te that's the, a, of the, a and B that's <laugh> like you don't, I don't understand why they would screw people over like that. These are people who have gone outta their way to help Microsoft. And they're like getting smacked in the face every other week now by these AB tests. It's

Mary Jo Foley (00:35:27):
Ridiculous. I mean, they say, they say, ultimately, you will get everybody in the channel will get the feature, but I just still feel like you get people. What if they say away? Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:35:38):
Ultimately everyone on earth will get it. I, I, I said, I want them now by choosing to put a computer in the dev channel. Yeah. Microsoft did not buy me a computer to do that. I, I, this is my computer. I have decided to take my time I'm and manually installing builds. I'm rebooting computers, sending in feedback and you're not giving me the thing. Are you kidding me? They do this over and over and over again. It's awful.

Mary Jo Foley (00:36:02):

Paul Thurrott (00:36:03):
It's awful.

Mary Jo Foley (00:36:05):
I just think it would be good. I know they do insider podcasts where they talk to people who are in the insider program on a regular basis. But I feel like there needs to be something where they explain the thinking and the program publicly.

Paul Thurrott (00:36:18):
Yeah. You mean like a trial and then people like Nuremberg where they actually put those people up on a stand and they have to answer

Mary Jo Foley (00:36:25):
That. That wasn't really the metaphor I had in

Paul Thurrott (00:36:28):
Mind. Did I

Leo Laporte (00:36:28):
Go too far? Is it a balloon store in nuremburg? Is

Mary Jo Foley (00:36:31):
That the, it is there you go. I think we're,

Paul Thurrott (00:36:34):
Is it a literal war crime that they're doing AB inte a and B testing? Oh, let's find out. No,

Mary Jo Foley (00:36:39):
I think, I think you're very highly incensed about it. I, I just think it, I think they need to give an explanation. I think it would be very,

Paul Thurrott (00:36:46):
I don't think they, they talk, they talk about feedback. They talk about insiders. I don't think they have any understanding of the harm they're doing to these people. I, I they're, they're making a big MIS no, I'm serious. Whatever the size of this audience is, I guarantee you it's smaller today. Active testers because of this kind, they're just, this is not what you do to those people. Right? It's it's understandable. You want to AB test things, I guess <laugh> I, but I don't even know what AB testing even means. Honestly, in this context, you you're putting the feature in, or you're not. If, if you literally have something that's for experimental new features, that might not make it, use it for that thing. Yeah. That's what you do. That's it's simple. It sounds simple. I don't know. I, but I guess it's not, I dunno.

Mary Jo Foley (00:37:32):
Yeah. It's a hard computer science problem. That's all I can say. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:37:37):
Now you it's really a psychology problem is what it is, but

Leo Laporte (00:37:40):
That was the first of the two new bills. And there's the new one today, right?

Mary Jo Foley (00:37:44):
Yeah. Today's is

Paul Thurrott (00:37:45):

Leo Laporte (00:37:45):
It, nothing in it. Nothing. Okay. Not even Explorer tabs. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:37:49):
The other thing, by the way, actually, just up, I was afraid. I was afraid we were not gonna rant enough today. The, the bill that added the file Explorer tabs to dev arrived last Wednesday or Thursday. I don't remember the day. I wanna say Thursday. It must have been Thursday. I don't think we talked about it last week, but it was Wednesday or Thursday. The build that added it to the beta channel arrived Monday,

Mary Jo Foley (00:38:15):
Monday. Yeah. They never released,

Paul Thurrott (00:38:16):
They don't release builds on Monday ever. No. Now I, I guess maybe that suggests they might have meant to put them out at the same time or something. I, but, but again, you know, we've, we, we're sort of forced to accept that the insider channels have changed to whatever they are for reasons that maybe we don't completely understand, but there's some rationale to them. That fact to me suggests that there's the rationale is even more SP than I think it is, which is that you would test something in the, be the dev channel for some time, then you would bring it to beta, but they did it four days later. I, that doesn't, there was no feed back. There was no time.

Mary Jo Foley (00:38:58):
Plus let me ask you this wasn't there, there were tabs and Explorer in the dev channel before right in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it got pulled, but right. Did they redo the whole way that worked and then reintroduced it? Or is it the exact same way it worked before? <Laugh> I don't know. I'm just curious about, about if they meet changes

Paul Thurrott (00:39:18):
That I don't know.

Mary Jo Foley (00:39:20):

Leo Laporte (00:39:24):
Visual studio, 20, 22 now running natively windows on arm, Paul, th your turn,

Paul Thurrott (00:39:31):
Is it? Well, well, I'll just write about the fact that I, I tried this <laugh>. There you go. Yeah, yesterday. So I should say, was it last week or two weeks ago at build Microsoft announced they were bringing a bunch of things to arm. I should say a bunch of developer, the, a new version of the framework, 4.8 0.1, native unarm VI visual C plus plus native unarm, and then visual studio. Now this will be a version of visual studio that comes out at the end of the year. So it's in preview now. And that's what they released yesterday. Seeing this, I thought I have a windows unarmed computer. I will install this. I wanna see what this is like. This is a subset of the full visual studio experience. In the sense, when you bring up visual studio, you have some selection of workloads. I should just tell you what they are, instead of just saying what they're and you cross compile

Leo Laporte (00:40:20):
From it. I mean, do you have to only compile to arm

Paul Thurrott (00:40:22):
Or yeah. So if you are on Intel, which, or AMD today, you can, depending on the type of app create arm executables. Oh, interesting. Now yeah. You have to put them some, you know, technically you should test those, right? Yeah, yeah. Obviously on an RM PC. So, so what they've done is they've brought the visual studio IDE, which is a very big program and they've poured it to arm. So the X 86 X 64, actually it's X 64. Now version of visual studio supports. I'm just gonna count here. 8, 9, 12, 15, whatever workloads, right? And there's some classics in there, universal windows, platform,, desktop platform desktop development, which is WPF windows forms, et cetera, mobile development, which is Zin today will be Maui soon desktop development with C plus plus, which is the classic 1 32 stuff,, web development,, etcetera, et cetera.

Paul Thurrott (00:41:17):
Okay. So there's a bunch of it. There's all kinds of stuff. The, when I install visual studio, I typically install two or three of those workloads. So I desktop development, cuz I write apps and windows presentation foundation. I did the windows forum thing and I do windows PLA I do a windows plat or universal windows platform development. And sometimes I'll add desktop development. The truth is I don't do a lot with that and I'm looking forward to doing Maui in the future. But the thing that I install is typically between 16 and 18 gigabytes of stuff, we'll call it 17 gigs, it install it, downloads and installs together. If I'm on a new computer, any laptop, modern laptop, this will take me about 30 minutes. That's how long it takes. <Laugh> I started yesterday afternoon about, I don't know, two o'clock in the afternoon.

Paul Thurrott (00:42:02):
I went to my one windows unarmed computer. It had to install like a bios update thing. So I did that. It took a long time. Everything takes a long time and it was it's on the dev channel because I'm an idiot. So I had, I decided to, I don't know if I had to, but I did DEC I did install the latest windows insider build that took the rest of the afternoon because at one point it rebooted and never installed. And then I started it up again, but we were going out last night and when I got home, it was ready to reboot and actually install. And so this happened overnight. So I lost yesterday. So I meant yesterday to test this windows and arm is just a nightmare. So it took forever this morning, I got up and I installed visual studio and there were three workloads that it can install.

Paul Thurrott (00:42:43):
What are they there? Desktop development with C plus development. Again, windows, forums, WPF and universal windows platform development. I'm like cool. The total install size of this thing is 1.6 gigabytes. It is one 10th. The size of the normal thing that I install. Huh? So I'm like, well, great. I'll let, because it probably doesn't have a lot of the legacy optional components. I don't know who knows. So I installed the whole thing. I did this, I, I, I made coffee and started this install and then got on with my day, which involves reading the newspaper, cleaning up a little bit, walking the dog, which takes 30 minutes. This thing never completed during all of that. Like it, I got home from walking the dog. It was still not done. It took an hour and 17 minutes just to install, download and install one 10th of visual studio.

Paul Thurrott (00:43:30):
<Laugh> like what? <Laugh>. So that was horrible. But I think this speaks to the problem with windows on arm today, which is, well, one of the problems, which is Microsoft has actually made some big steps in recent months. There have been like native versions of like notepad, that media player app, the win, the Microsoft store is now native. Onar in the, the insider program. They're bringing all this developer stuff to window windows and arm. They're obviously like really serious about this, but the hardware platform itself is still garbage. The computer I'm using is beautiful. It's an HP elite portfolio. It's one of the sweetest computers I own. It is. One of the best keyboards I've ever used in a laptop. It's very similar. Like the one that Mary Jo has it's similar in many ways to the, the surface laptop or surface book, whatever beautiful man does it run slow <laugh> but I will say this for all the hours and hours, everything later, I, I went to GitHub, brought up one of my, the WPF first and my aunt cloned it onto visual studio on the arm computer.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:29):
I waited a long time, you know, cause windows, arm compiled that thing and ran it and it worked fine. It works fine. Like it worked mm-hmm <affirmative> so I know, I know this is like a listen and <laugh>, you know, with the apple world it's that's, that's nothing like on our side of the fence, like this working at all to me was a minor miracle. I was positive. It was gonna cough something up. Like there's some component in here. That's not of something. Cause like I said, it's only like a 10th, the size, like I, something must be missing, but it worked fine. Good. It worked just fine. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> thought net six WPF. Nice. Wow. That's slowly interesting, you know? Yeah. Everything slow, slow, but it works is the compilation must be really pathetically, slow. It's slow. Yeah. What's really slow is, you know ZL which is Microsoft's like visual designer, you know, that they've had since 2006 or whatever dates back to Longhorn is a way to kind of visually design a UI and you could write it in code, which is very similar it's XML or very similar to HDML.

Paul Thurrott (00:45:35):
They offer a split view where you can see a preview of it and the code at the same time. I always turn that off because it's too slow on any computer. Right. But on the arm computer, it was, it was like bringing up a commod or 64. Like it's gonna get there. Just give it a second. Yeah. You know, <laugh> eventually it's funny in this day and age to see that, I mean, you just really don't get the opportunity to see things like, well, let me just show you something you might remember from the good old days. Internet Explorer has encountered a problem and needs. I have a video for you for you, both of this. <Laugh> nice. So if you go to my TWiTtter, this is a website lag, That's all it does. That's all it does. You gotta bring up my TWiTtter account. So Justin, I will bring up your TWiTtter. Yes. Salvato posted a video about IE and why are we, why are we doing this today? Because this is today. The line it's

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:32):
The days.

Paul Thurrott (00:46:33):
Well, it's sort of the day, right? Everything sort of the day Microsoft has an asterisks, right? Yeah. But for, for, for normal people, for people running windows 10 inter internet explore is finally going away.

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:46):
Most people,

Paul Thurrott (00:46:49):
You gotta hear the audio though. Makes sense. Oh, I don't know if I can let me, I'll put my microphone next to it. I don't know if I can get the audio for you. Yep.

Mary Jo Foley (00:47:07):

Paul Thurrott (00:47:08):
Welcome to a more beautiful web. So this <laugh> and then internet Explorer has stopped explore his stopped work. Perfect ending. Yeah. Yeah. It was a beautiful, beautiful web. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:47:23):

Paul Thurrott (00:47:24):
So, so

Mary Jo Foley (00:47:25):
I had people ask me, what does this mean? Yeah. Like, okay. Today's the day. So what does it mean? Does it mean they take it away? No, it does not mean that <laugh> starting today. It will no longer get any security updates. So the end of support is officially now, right? Like, so I've had people say, I don't care. I'm gonna just keep running it. I don't care if it's patched for security. I'm like, who

Leo Laporte (00:47:49):
Says that

Mary Jo Foley (00:47:50):
Really idiots? Like what idiots, what I know who wants to

Leo Laporte (00:47:53):
Run? I,

Mary Jo Foley (00:47:54):
I I'll take my chances. I'm

Leo Laporte (00:47:56):
Who wants to run?

Mary Jo Foley (00:47:57):
Why I know some people have websites or apps. Well, it still actually will work with apps to some extent because they didn't kill Trident, the HTML inside of the apps. Right. But the, the other thing is, what they're gonna start doing is they'll start redirecting you. So if you click on, if you have an internet Explorer icon on your task bar and you click on it and you think you're gonna get IE 11, it'll start redirecting you to edge. Like gradually you're gonna get redirected, redirected because edge has I E mode in it. So if you really still do need, I E right, you can run it in I E mode in edge. Right. <laugh> at some point when

Leo Laporte (00:48:38):
It, when you run an IE mode, is it still using the chromium en engine or is it using Trident? Do you tryin engine?

Mary Jo Foley (00:48:45):
I do not know. Do you, Paul,

Leo Laporte (00:48:47):
What does that even mean?

Paul Thurrott (00:48:48):

Leo Laporte (00:48:49):
What does it mean to be running in? It,

Paul Thurrott (00:48:53):
That's a good question. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:48:55):
I that's a then you might as well maintain it. If you're gonna build that into edge.

Mary Jo Foley (00:49:00):
Well, they say, do not disable does. I does.

Paul Thurrott (00:49:03):
Yeah. It does use, it uses trend for leg, for legacy sites. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:49:07):
Hmm. Yeah. Right. The thing that you need to know though is, okay, no more security updates. It's, they're not gonna physically remove it for some, for some time. We don't know for how long, but at some point there's going to be an update that comes through windows update that will take it away. But we don't know when <laugh> also thanks to know that I E mode and edge will be supported through at least 2029. Right. So isn't really dead. It's still there through at least 2029. In I E mode,

Paul Thurrott (00:49:42):
This is like you know, it's a, like Lennons too where you can walk by this toy body case. I, and it's like, and then yeah. Then like 10 years go by and you're like, Hey, let's have, A's have a funeral for this guy. It's like, what are you hid? He done forever. You know, like I, most people stopped using IE many years ago. Right. You know, Microsoft BEC partially because of what was going on longer and stopped developing IE, there was a five or six year pause there with no new features, no new nothing. And that's when Firefox kind of came out and took over for a while, then Chrome map. And then that was the end of that. And it it's too bad. You know, Microsoft had the best browser from a functionality perspective for several years. They really did. I mean, I would say from I E three through six, it was the best browser.

Paul Thurrott (00:50:28):
It was, but ultimately the legacy of this thing, I think, and I was just thinking about this earlier today is that <laugh>, they, they finally defeated the power of the defaults, you know, even normal people know when they install windows, that next thing they do is go get Chrome. You know, they, they finally found a way to overcome defaults by making a browser that was so bad that people only used it to install its competitor. <Laugh>, you know it's a crazy thing. In fact, it, it probably is hampering edge usage today. I think there's still a, yeah. A feeling like, you know, out in the populace that they need to get Chrome, even though I think for most people edge would solve this problem just as easily or just as well. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, it's an interesting thing. It it's it

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:15):
Is, it is. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:51:16):
It's why they got rid of the brand. Right. It's it's poisoned.

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:20):
Yeah. Although the logo, remember the first iteration of the edge logo looked a lot, the I E logo slowly

Leo Laporte (00:51:26):
More tain. It, it

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:27):
Did. <Laugh> it did. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:51:30):
Yeah. I think where you, if you're running, wanna use the term metastasized Leo, but

Leo Laporte (00:51:33):

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:34):
Nice, nice. Yeah. If you're, but if you're running I E on L the LTSC long term servicing channel versions of windows 10 on windows seven, with security, extended security updates on server mm-hmm <affirmative> it's still supported on those platforms. Windows

Paul Thurrott (00:51:51):
Eight one.

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:51):
It's not going away. Yep. Windows eight one, right?

Paul Thurrott (00:51:54):
Because there's no edge. There's no edge. Right? You, you, there's still, there's no edge supporting it in places where there's no edge. Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:59):
Exactly. So they'll support it. As long as the operating system itself is supported on each of those platforms. So you have to go look up your support date. End of support date for those. And that's when they're ending it,

Paul Thurrott (00:52:12):
That's the asterisks, because it's really, it is I E 11 on windows 10, I guess. Right. That's kind of the, yeah. The thing that's unsupported at this point, which is probably the biggest chunk of the user base by far mm-hmm

Leo Laporte (00:52:26):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I found somebody who is unhappy about this. According to the wall street journal, of course, Sam Malanga a 31 year old Polynesian dance instructor in Ulis Texas.

Paul Thurrott (00:52:39):

Leo Laporte (00:52:40):
Yeah, he says, I'm still trying to process it. I've used it for so long. It's the first thing I get on my laptop, which tells me he doesn't know what he's talking about. Cuz doesn't exactly with your laptop. You don't have to get

Paul Thurrott (00:52:53):
It. I, I, I don't understand.

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:56):
He's getting Chrome.

Leo Laporte (00:52:56):
He doesn't know what he's talking about. It's the first thing I, he

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:59):
Downloading Chrome and he thinks that's IE. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:53:01):
It's the first thing that I get. It's like, like, what do you mean? Like you contracted it. What are you talking about?

Leo Laporte (00:53:06):
It's crazy. He adds, I love the wall street journal. They manage to find somebody for everything.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:11):
Yeah. They'll find a kn

Leo Laporte (00:53:13):
All these years, everybody has been using it. And all of a sudden they're gonna take it away.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:20):
<Laugh> yep. That's what happened.

Leo Laporte (00:53:21):
This guy obviously has no

Paul Thurrott (00:53:24):
Idea what he's talking about. And I think this is what I talking about. Journal. This is the TWiTtter. This is TWiTtter. You know? No, this is like my, this is the, my response journal. No, I know, but this is, this is what TWiTtter does to you. Same TWiTtter. Oh, this is how our brains have been rewired. Right? Like I, I, I made a joke about this and some guy was like, don't be mean, I'm sure you used IE for years. Yeah. I used diapers for years too. <Laugh> I, I don't, I don't have nostalgia

Mary Jo Foley (00:53:50):
For it in room store. You

Paul Thurrott (00:53:52):
Know, like this here's another one, a 22 year old talker from Peter burrow, Ontario and I 22, he says, it's sad to see it go. For him, internet Explorer provided a portal to a world of endless information and computer games. Oh man. He's 22.

Mary Jo Foley (00:54:10):
Another one. No idea. None. He's probably using edge

Paul Thurrott (00:54:14):
<Laugh> yeah. Yeah. He's probably using Chrome, like everyone else, but like whatev, like where, where do they find these people? Here's like I said, Johnny Casey, a 67 year old retiree in Eli Lacot city. Maryland says the internet Explorer browser is one of the three that pop up on my cell phone. I no, absolutely not. That's not true. Nope. That's not. Is there an IE for cell phones?

Mary Jo Foley (00:54:40):
Why would it pop up

Paul Thurrott (00:54:41):
On your cell phones? More? No, <laugh> it was on windows phones, you know, windows. Maybe she has, might have a windows phone. Maybe that's it. Well, if she does this from 2005 or something, because we have too many choices, I sort of feel like the fewer choices, the better. Well, good. They got rid of IE. You're welcome. Where did they find these people?

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:02):
You gotta wonder. You really got to wonder <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:55:06):
It's crazy. This is like, like Sony, like Sony. Now say that they got rid of the cassette based Walkman. Yeah. And now we can get all these people. Whoa. This Sony listen to music in the

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:17):
1980S. How would I ever listen to music again? I can't

Paul Thurrott (00:55:19):
<Laugh> I know if only there was a way this is the only one I believe. Darrell Burke. Okay. Darrell Burke. A 29 year old filmmaker lives in Wilmington. North Carolina says his mother will have a hard time letting go.

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:31):
There you go. There we

Paul Thurrott (00:55:32):
Go. Once it sets in, he says it will blow her mind. <Laugh> she'll never notice. Don't worry. Dar. No, she won't. She's not gonna notice. She has no idea. Well, how much, how much usage shared does IE have today? One point something percent. It's gotta be nothing. Think the journal found all of them. Yep. I don't think the journal found any of them. Actually. No, this is made up. You're gonna quote me. Oh, all right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, sure. What do you want? What do you want? You looking for out outrage or just sadness? Cause I got it. I got either way. I got it. Unbelievable. Oh, wait, who wrote this there? Article Alyssa hat is 0.6, 4%. Wow. In May, 2022, but you know what guys, it fell dramatically a year ago. It was 0.6, 2%. It actually went up 0.2% year of year. So it was trending upward and Microsoft killed it. How mean is that

Leo Laporte (00:56:28):
Sad? I'm still trying to process it. How could they do this to me? It's the first thing I go. I install on my computer. <Laugh> sure, sure it is okay.

Mary Jo Foley (00:56:41):

Leo Laporte (00:56:41):
Hey. Oh Lord. It pops up on my cell phone. Now I'm just with three other browsers.

Paul Thurrott (00:56:48):
If I type an install, internet Explorer, <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:56:52):
You can't, you can't, you can't

Paul Thurrott (00:56:53):
Find it like it's not a

Leo Laporte (00:56:55):
Well, and that's always the joke. Internet Explorer is the number one browser for installing other browsers. Right? That's the joke is that's all he, anybody ever uses for was to install Chrome. Yes.

Paul Thurrott (00:57:07):

Leo Laporte (00:57:08):
<Laugh> 27 years. We hardly knew. Ye I E <laugh>. You haven't used it since 2012. What are we talking about? But then nobody's the

Paul Thurrott (00:57:20):
2012 might even be <laugh> conservative. I mean,

Leo Laporte (00:57:23):
Yeah. What year

Paul Thurrott (00:57:24):
Did Chrome come out? Nobody. This

Leo Laporte (00:57:25):
Is yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:57:27):
Guys. Chrome was a one way dead and street. We, yeah, this is

Mary Jo Foley (00:57:31):

Leo Laporte (00:57:31):
Crazy. I love it. That it's this is the, your article say goodbye to an Explorer is under the premium <laugh> portion of your, of your blog.

Paul Thurrott (00:57:40):
Oh, cause I tell I, well, because I wrote a, I have, I have my little stories about, yeah. My interactions with various P I met Joe be Fior because of internet Explorer back in the day. Oh really?

Leo Laporte (00:57:50):

Paul Thurrott (00:57:50):
That's cool. I was good. Good friends with the guy. I ran IE team for a long time. He used to come to my house with dunking donuts.

Leo Laporte (00:57:55):
Oh yeah. This has got all these anecdotes. Oh, you know what mm-hmm <affirmative> you want to read this? This is

Mary Jo Foley (00:57:59):
Awesome. Here's someone who actually did use internet Explorer, unlike the wall street journal readers. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:58:07):

Leo Laporte (00:58:08):
Right. Yeah. And as you point out

Paul Thurrott (00:58:09):
And I gave up on it a long time ago. Yeah. I mean, I,

Leo Laporte (00:58:11):
For a long time, this is not,

Paul Thurrott (00:58:13):
I they used to try to convince me, I E you know, 7, 8, 9, 10, whatever, you know, <laugh> at least to have these discussions. It was like, guys, the world has moved past. I I'm sorry. Like

Leo Laporte (00:58:23):

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:23):
Time to move on, but

Leo Laporte (00:58:25):
Yep. I gotta point out now that I E's gone, PC sales are plummeting <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:58:30):

Leo Laporte (00:58:31):

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:32):
Correlation right there. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:58:34):

Paul Thurrott (00:58:36):
I, this co this is this is turning into a bipolar conversation, you know, about whether or not PC sales are gonna keep rising or falling or what's going, and

Leo Laporte (00:58:45):
I've prefer to think of it as a tug of war Paul. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:58:47):
There you go. Yes. It's yeah. Tug of war between the left and the right side of my brain, I guess. I it's every week there's evidence to the contrary of whatever happened the previous week, you know, we just talked about Dell and Lenovo blockbuster, I think record revenues in both cases, largely from PC sales, bam, you know, going great. And the ID C came out was like, yeah, hold on a second. Whoa.

Leo Laporte (00:59:11):

Paul Thurrott (00:59:11):
Yeah. And they have all these great reasons. There's always reasons, right. You know, there's component shortages before still, but they don't mention that today it's war inflation and lockdowns in China, baby. And because of this, they expect PC sales to fault 8.2% this year. And that's still to a pretty healthy over 300 million units which is great, but they also, they also look out a little further, which I think is kind of interesting. And they expect to see PC growth return next year. And then course these were the guys who said windows phone was gonna overtake the iPhone. So asterisk that as well, but okay. Yeah, those guys. But PC, PC sales, we, I talk a lot about plateauing in the PC industry. Like when PC sales declined for, I think it was six or seven years in a row.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:00):
I kept looking for where, where does it plateau? Cause I, I didn't see it falling off a, a cliff. Like I felt like it had to stop at one point and it looks like we're gonna be, this is IDC numbers, but in the 300 and 330 million range for several years. So this might be the new normal, honestly, not it falling every year, but rather it, it just hitting some kind of a level, which is honestly a really good level for what kind of device this is. So it's not, it's not you know, I'm sure there won't be wars or endemics or

Leo Laporte (01:00:31):

Paul Thurrott (01:00:31):
Component shortages or China lockdowns or anything next year. It'll be fine. So, you know, this is like one bad year. Just take it, you know, for what it's worth. And we'll be fine. Yeah. Probably <laugh> and I'm going to Mexico because I can't take it anyway. It's fine.

Leo Laporte (01:00:46):
I'll meet you there.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:47):
Yeah. Cause

Leo Laporte (01:00:48):
I love hail,

Paul Thurrott (01:00:49):
You know, we'll be in the hail together. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:00:52):
It's going to hail, let's take a little little timeout. The world is gonna hail. The world is going to hail. At least Mexico city is. And talk about our sponsor. Oh, I'm so excited. My new coffee is here. I just I, I subscribe to trade coffee. We've talked about that before. If you love coffee, you'll love this idea. Just like Mary Jo is always talking about craft beers. There are amazing craft roasters all over the country and that's the beauty of trade coffee. It brings you the coffees direct from those roasters. I just finished up an excellent espresso from lake Tahoe, from a Tahoe roaster called drink coffee, do stuff, but it was a great espresso. So this is just in the Nick of time. Let's see who this is from. Everyone is directly shipped from a local roaster to our location just as they will be to you. Fortune favors the bold necessary coffee, strong partners make rich coffees. Yesy they know that I like the dark roast tastes like bittersweet, Coco molasses. Where is, where is this? Where is this located? Oh, it's in Lancaster, PA. That's right up the road. Is that up the road from you? Paul Lancaster?

Paul Thurrott (01:02:12):
Yes, sir. Yeah. It's about an hour

Leo Laporte (01:02:13):
From here. That's my family. My family's from Erie. So up, up north,

Paul Thurrott (01:02:17):
Right? This is 

Leo Laporte (01:02:19):
It's kind of a, an Amish area. 10 oh a hundred percent a Arabica. Oh wow. Look at that. Backyard. Compost friendly. I like that. Cuz we're doing the compost now here in California. So trade coffee connects you directly to the freshest, best tasting coffee ever made at home by partnering with the country's best craft roasters, independent businesses from big cities and small towns is Lancasters kind of in the middle I would say. Yeah, that's right. That's where that's where you get those great soft pretzels in the, oh, I love the Amish stuff there. Cool. There's this QR coat on it. So you can learn about the coffee. This makes a big difference for these small roasters. By the way we get beans, you can get it ground, but we like to grind it for extra freshness. 60 of the country's best craft roasters.

Leo Laporte (01:03:14):
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Leo Laporte (01:04:09):
And it's delivered fresh to you and you do it as often as you want. You don't have to get it, you know, on a regular schedule. If you don't want to trade delivers a bag of freshly roasted coffee as whole beans or ground for however you brew it at home, fine medium course, they guarantee you'll love your first order or they will replace it for free 5 million bags. Now, fresh coffee from sustainable growers and the best, oh man, this smells so good. The best coffee roasters. That's the other thing you'll love. I have a rural mailbox, rural root mailbox. And when, when, when the trade comes, I open it up and I know it's here cuz I smell it. It smells so good. 5 million bags of fresh coffee, they delivered 750,000 positive reviews. And if you're a new subscriber, they're gonna give you $30 off your first order plus free shipping.

Leo Laporte (01:05:00):
So that's a heck of a deal. That's more than 40 cups of coffee, free drink,, $30 off your first order. Just take the quiz, start it off by taking the quiz, drink, Let trade line of coffee. You will love drink. Trade.Com/Windows. If you go there right now, I think you could get in, get in there in time for father's day. That'd be a great subscription. If dad likes coffee. In fact, come to think of it. This is like for me, this would be the best, the best father state president, much better than a tie drink, Thank you. Trade for some. I love this fortune in favors. The bold <laugh> Matt demon. Of course he was talking about,

Paul Thurrott (01:05:52):
It looks like the Imperial throne room in there today.

Leo Laporte (01:05:54):
<Laugh> is it because I'm wearing my lovely 

Paul Thurrott (01:05:57):
Purple in the red background

Leo Laporte (01:05:59):
In the red background? Yeah. Yeah. We're we're going for classy here at windows weekly. The brand new classy version of windows weekly. 

Paul Thurrott (01:06:10):
Well I don't like it <laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:06:12):

Paul Thurrott (01:06:12):

Leo Laporte (01:06:13):
Classy. Not one bit, no. Gaming. Is this the Xbox segment? Are you doing an Xbox segment, but you're not calling it an Xbox segment.

Paul Thurrott (01:06:22):
Well, see Mary Jo threw a little wrench into our plans.

Leo Laporte (01:06:26):
Why is that?

Paul Thurrott (01:06:28):
Because I, you should ask Mary Jo,

Leo Laporte (01:06:30):
Mary Jo.

Mary Jo Foley (01:06:32):
Oh, well I wanted to lead the show today with Xbox and gaming.

Leo Laporte (01:06:37):
Oh my God. Yeah, no, that would be only because be a little

Paul Thurrott (01:06:40):
Tug of

Leo Laporte (01:06:40):
War over. It that'd be wrenching.

Mary Jo Foley (01:06:42):
We did only because there was so much stuff announced over the past few days. Oh

Leo Laporte (01:06:47):
Well this is E three time, even though there is no E three and despite the fact that they've said there'll be one next year. I can't imagine there will be. I think it's pretty much over, but it's kind of cool. We were talking about this with Patrick Beja on TWiT on Sunday that there still is kind of all of these announcements coming out. I mean

Paul Thurrott (01:07:08):
Yeah, everyone's doing it. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:07:09):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so yeah. I'm not surprised you have a lot of news.

Paul Thurrott (01:07:12):
This is a good time of year for stuff that's gonna, you know, basically impacts the holiday season. Right?

Leo Laporte (01:07:17):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> although, lots of times, at least at E three, they wouldn't have games that aren't gonna come out till next year.

Paul Thurrott (01:07:23):
True. Yeah. Well it's like it's their CES,

Leo Laporte (01:07:26):
Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. So Microsoft, did they have an event? What did they do? They had a couple,

Paul Thurrott (01:07:33):
The wrong person. Leo.

Leo Laporte (01:07:34):
This is Mary Jo's story. I know she's

Mary Jo Foley (01:07:36):
I had to write up something. I was forced against my

Leo Laporte (01:07:41):
Well, Paul I'll leave you on the screen case case. You want to comment? Normally this is the time Mary Jo go. I don't, but

Paul Thurrott (01:07:47):
Usually this is games is more of a Mary Jo thing. I don't know

Leo Laporte (01:07:51):

Mary Jo Foley (01:07:52):
No, no. So I, I have some, some of these announcements were interesting and at least one was horrifying to me. So let me go that

Paul Thurrott (01:08:00):
<Laugh> I can't wait to find out

Leo Laporte (01:08:01):
Which one I,

Mary Jo Foley (01:08:02):
You know, which one I'm gonna say was horrifying

Paul Thurrott (01:08:04):
<Laugh> I actually am not sure which one you are gonna say. Okay. Let me think about this.

Mary Jo Foley (01:08:07):
So they had a, they had an event, a virtual event what's next for gaming, 20, 22 from Microsoft. And they talked about some hardware, but mostly services announcements. That's why I think Microsoft briefed me because Xbox gaming does run on Azure. So I guess they thought maybe because I could make that connection. I would write something. I

Leo Laporte (01:08:31):
Think Paul him up to it, but okay.

Mary Jo Foley (01:08:33):
<Laugh> I think he might have. Yeah. Yeah. So let's start with the horrifying first. Get that right out of the way Microsoft is going to add gaming integrations into edge. There's gonna be a gaming new tab page, which will be personalized gaming homepage for you, with your news, your game guides, even upcoming and newly released games and access to your most recently played games. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:08:58):
Is that optional? I don't have to have that

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:00):
If I use right. If you're a gamer, this must sound fantastic. Yeah. If you are a normal person who is not a gamer, a business user, there's gotta be a way to turn this off. Right. There's gotta be a way that your users never, ever can see this, right. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:09:16):

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:17):
Has to be yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:09:19):
Oh Smithers. What's that gaming tab you have on your browser.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:23):
Exactly. No. That's yes. Switch from a game to an Excel spreadsheet. The boss button, right?

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:29):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, that one was a little scary. I, I didn't really get into the detail you'll of how you can. I'm sure you'll there must be a way there must be a way. Yeah. They also announced a deal. This was really funny. My downstairs neighbor, who knows, I covered technology. He was so excited about this announcement. He had to like start sending me tons of texts all morning about this one. Samsung smart TVs are getting the Xbox app, right? Yeah. So that's right. You could play games on the TV without having to have a console. I think he, so we live in very small apartments. He doesn't want a gaming console in his house, right?

Paul Thurrott (01:10:10):
Yes. So this is to be clear, this is Xbox cloud gaming, which is the streaming service.

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:15):
Yeah. Right. So he's he's he was so excited about this. He's like, wait, so I don't have to have a gaming console, but I could play games on my Samsung smart TV. I said, do you have a Samsung smart TV? He's like, aren't all smart TV, TV, Samsung. I'm like, I don't think so. But 

Paul Thurrott (01:10:30):
So the big, the problem for him is probably gonna be, it's not, it might not be recent enough to get this app. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:36):

Paul Thurrott (01:10:36):
Depending on the age of the, you know, it, it, it, yeah. Most likely

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:40):
He may go get a TV. He may go get a TV just for this. He was, I'm not kidding you. The guy texted me, like there was a stream of text. I'm like, okay. So John, I gotta keep working now. Like this is good. I'm glad you're excited. That's amazing

Paul Thurrott (01:10:51):
To me watch this.

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:52):

Paul Thurrott (01:10:53):
Smart TV apps by nature are not usually very good. And right. You'd be better off with almost any other kind of app, if there was an Xbox app on apple TV or yeah. Amazon fire TV or whatever, but

Mary Jo Foley (01:11:06):
Right, right. What else do they talk about? You can, you're gonna be able to bring your own games to Xbox cloud gaming later this year. That seemed kind of big.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:18):
That's actually, that's very interesting. Yeah. I, I think the theory there, it must be it's digital games, obviously, so, right. But if you own a game, like I bought all the call of duties or whatever, I'll be able to stream them. That actually solves a big problem with Xbox game pass. Xbox called gaming, which is that yeah, there are hundreds of games, but in my case, especially, it's not the games I play. So this is if, as long as you now you own a game and it can stream that's actually that that's almost like an exponential improvement. Yeah. That's a good one.

Mary Jo Foley (01:11:47):
Yeah. Yep. Argentina and New Zealand get added to Xbox cloud gaming. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> as new regions starting June 9th. So that already happened curated demos of upcoming games on Xbox game pass. So you can find new games. This had a code name, which I thought was interesting project Warcraft.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:10):
Right. Hopefully after Michael Barcroft of the Elrich saga and whatnot.

Mary Jo Foley (01:12:17):
Didn't I had no idea who that is or what that is, but yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:20):
Okay. <laugh> it's a series. He wrote several series of books. Not Conan. There were others El work's the one I remember, but there were actually more famous series than that one.

Mary Jo Foley (01:12:33):
Nice. I'll look it up. <Laugh> coming sometime next year for project Warcraft. And then this one, you've gotta explain to me, I have no idea what these words meant with them in my story, but I don't know what they mean. Xbox design lab is coming so people can optimize their colors and camo top cases. <Laugh> no idea match with matching side caps, nonsense words in my world, but like something you can design, <laugh> something you can customize. Like, is that customized for your controllers? Maybe.

Paul Thurrott (01:13:06):
Yeah. So the Xbox design lab already exists. It allows you to create customized controllers, different color schemes and whatnot. So they're adding more colors, more color schemes. Got it. And if I, I actually never, I didn't look at this too closely because I was like, whatever, but you just said something interesting, which suggests you're gonna be able to do design lab for things that are not just the controllers. What was read read what you said again about it. You said custom controllers. What else

Mary Jo Foley (01:13:28):
Allow people to optimize their colors and camo top cases with matching side caps,

Paul Thurrott (01:13:34):
Camo top cases. Oh no idea. None. In other words maybe they're doing some kind of a, I'll have to look at it. I guess I like a pool professional has a pool cute case PO yeah. Or possibly they mean the case for the cons itself. Oh, you know? Well, that'd be cool. I don't know's camo. So no one knows you're carrying around a gaming machine, HPO forum where the other eternal

Mary Jo Foley (01:13:59):
Champion, Rob bot, Rob bot and discord says they're adding camo as a color option. So maybe it's not anything like what I wrote. So <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:14:06):
There you go. Okay. I thought it was just new colors. Yeah. So, okay.

Mary Jo Foley (01:14:10):
It, maybe I just totally did not understand it or was asleep when I was writing it. That could have also been the case. Yeah. I think those are the highlights aren't they

Paul Thurrott (01:14:20):
There's more. But yeah, that's, that is actually most of it. There was a a related event on Sunday where they previewed over 20 games coming from Bethesda, another Xbox partners. I honestly, wasn't too blown away by this. I hear Bethesda and I think of the games, I like, you know, like castle Wolfenstein and et cetera, et cetera. But there are other games coming like Starfield, which I think was probably the big one, but they, they released a, a list of this is not all games, but games coming to Xbox slash PC over the next 12 months. Some of them this year, some of them next year, and they've never really done this kind of a deep dive. I don't, I didn't come away too blown away by this. And this includes all kinds of things. I mean, just games that are being released on the

Mary Jo Foley (01:15:10):
Platforms like this craft legends, right?

Paul Thurrott (01:15:13):
Yeah. Yeah. What's that?

Mary Jo Foley (01:15:15):
Anything like, I know, huh?

Paul Thurrott (01:15:16):
Minecraft legends is a Minecraft engine adventure game. Oh, that sounds fun. Yeah. It actually looks pretty good. Yeah. That's a bunch of flight simulator stuff, flight. So is getting the one of the aircraft from the halo games, which is actually kind of fun. And they also announced a us expansion pack today, a world. What do they call the world update today or yesterday, which is actually kind of interesting. So they've done a bunch of those, but yeah, no, that was most of it for sure. A bunch of stuff. I mean, I, yeah, this comes in the wake of news that Microsoft was about to release a dongle and then decided not to. And I think one of the issues they have with game cloud gaming, which is the game streaming service is you wanna put it everywhere. So there are, there's a web client and more web stuff coming to edge, obviously.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:03):
So that gets it on Mac and you know, Lenox is a native client on windows. There's there are clients on mobile, on Android and well, no, not on iOS, sorry, because of apple. We have to use a web browser on Apple's platforms, but what they really need to kind of go to the next step is smart TVs. Right. And so not just smart TV apps like they're doing with Samsung, but also, like I said Roku, fire, TV, apple TV, you know, this thing needs to be everywhere. So I, I think originally they were planning their own little HTMI dongle and now they're doing something else, so that's cool. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah. Did they answer the question that came up when they bought Bethesda and now they're gonna buy EA about ex making those exclusive to Xbox. They said they wouldn't, they're not gonna answer that question that way.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:52):
Like in other words, are we, or aren't we, they did indicate that they would be more exclusives over the next year than had been the case since the acquisition went through. So we yeah, there's gonna be more of that. I mean, that, that's a, it's a, you know, kind of a platform benefit. I think the right way to do it though, is to make things exclusive. They didn't say this, I'm sorry, I'm just making this up that they should, if they're gonna do exclusives, it should be a timed exclusive and then put it everywhere. If you look at what Sony's doing, Sony just announced plans to put 50% of their games or whatever the number was on PCs by a couple years from now. I mean, that's the right way to do it. I think is to reach as many gamers as possible. I don't, I think, you know, we're getting to the end of, or we should be getting to the end of the platform,

Leo Laporte (01:17:37):
Exclusion. Yeah. It kind of makes sense. They don't, they don't need to do that.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:40):

Leo Laporte (01:17:41):
In fact, the, most of the coverage I saw was really, this is, this is what game pass really comes into its own kind of thing. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:49):
Yep. Yeah, totally. And actually the, to me, it's the, the games you own coming now, like yes. It's like, here we go. Interesting.

Leo Laporte (01:17:56):
Here we go.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:57):
Yeah. Yeah. That makes it, that makes it really

Leo Laporte (01:17:59):

Paul Thurrott (01:18:00):
Yep. Yep. That that's that's that's that will get me to pay for this. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:18:06):

Paul Thurrott (01:18:07):
I already paid for this. You already paid for it, but no, but I mean,

Leo Laporte (01:18:10):
Somebody buys games. That's kind of what you need. Cuz I have this library. Right. And you know, I already

Paul Thurrott (01:18:16):
Have my, I wanna play it everywhere. I want it

Leo Laporte (01:18:18):
Everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> that does, it's totally compelling. I think. Well,

Paul Thurrott (01:18:21):
That changes thing. Like I go, you know, if I go away, like I don't play call of duty when I'm away, but I could now and it's sometimes too, that's kind of interesting. Like I, it's a nice little

Leo Laporte (01:18:30):

Mary Jo Foley (01:18:30):
How do you think this is gonna work? Like how would you

Paul Thurrott (01:18:33):
Poorly? Yeah, no. So

Mary Jo Foley (01:18:35):
You physically, what do you do? Like upload your game to

Paul Thurrott (01:18:39):
No. So you would stream it well, I presume it be you stream it. I assume you're not downloading it. So what you should be able to do through Xbox cloud gaming is I could have like a windows, computer or laptop mm-hmm <affirmative>, I'm on some kind of a trip or whatever in a hotel room and you run the Xbox app and today the way you do that is you streaming games over the service. The games that will come up now will include the games that I purchased digitally. They'll stream em, from their data centers. I have, you'll have to have an Xbox controller.

Leo Laporte (01:19:05):

Paul Thurrott (01:19:05):
And I just play off the TV screen and whatever the, I mean my huh. Sorry. My laptop screen.

Leo Laporte (01:19:10):

Paul Thurrott (01:19:12):
Yeah. I mean, we'll see you know, the performance has been mixed on this to date, but yeah, no, I'm kind of interested in this, so we'll see

Leo Laporte (01:19:21):
My game. That would

Paul Thurrott (01:19:22):
Be great. It should be great.

Leo Laporte (01:19:23):
Val Heim announced that they're gonna be on Xbox next year and they said you'll be able to play with your steam version, which I thought was interesting. Right. I'm not sure how that works.

Paul Thurrott (01:19:35):
Yeah. I, that might be the kind of game where that could make some sense. I mean there's been some controversy in the call of duty world with cross platform play, especially with PC to console because PC gamers have inherent superiority

Leo Laporte (01:19:52):
Well and Han you're not head to head, you know, you're, you're fighting non-player characters. Yep. You're not fighting other Baim people.

Paul Thurrott (01:20:01):
So yeah, I was gonna say earlier, like college duty might be tough because of just how phonetic it is. But side to head hall duty single player would be great. Probably of streaming. Right. That'd be fine.

Leo Laporte (01:20:11):

Paul Thurrott (01:20:14):
Yeah, I'm definitely gonna try it. That's

Leo Laporte (01:20:16):
Good. It's this is so good. Really for Microsoft, I, I feel like for the platform and for their business, they're gonna make so much money on this game pass. This is gonna be, you know, this is what apple did.

Paul Thurrott (01:20:26):
Yeah, no, I know. I it's. It's you look at the usage so far and you, I think it was, I think the figures like 10 million people subscribed. You're like, eh, 10 million. It's not that much, but you know what, actually, this is, this is gonna turn, this is quickly heading into no brainer territory for gamers. It's really interesting. How they've expanded it. This could be good. We'll see what ha we'll see. I'm I'm very, I'm very eager to try this.

Leo Laporte (01:20:53):
Okay. So that's what would've been. Microsoft's E three and Bethesda E three mm-hmm <affirmative> announcements,

Paul Thurrott (01:20:59):
Right? That's right. But

Leo Laporte (01:21:02):
That's not all

Paul Thurrott (01:21:04):
No, so no, there's more so as everyone knows, apple and Google are involved in various antitrusts issues all around the planet. And God, I couldn't be happier about that. And the UK competition of market's authority, which is their regulatory buddy, came up with an incredible 356 page report about how terrible apple is. It's the best thing I've ever read. It's awesome. I strongly recommend it to anybody, Google all so bad. But honestly, this was very clearly directed at apple. Apple gets called out individually so much. There's so much to it. And, but my favorite part, the most interesting part was the rationale for apple, not allowing Microsoft to bring Xbox cloud gaming, nothing thing we were just talking about to the iPhone and the iPad. This happened almost two years ago. You might recall we'll go back in time. But three three-ish years ago, Microsoft started testing this thing, which was then called project X cloud started with Android.

Paul Thurrott (01:21:59):
And then later on, I think in early 20, 20, I guess, or whatever, it doesn't matter what the timeframe was. But at some point they brought it to the iPhone, but the iPhone version only had one game. It wasn't a selection of games. You could only stream one game. And Microsoft eventually came, came out and said, yeah, like apple is really restricting the number of people we can test on this thing through their, I think they call it test flight app and, and they're not letting us stream more than one game at a time. Like we can't put more than one game in the library and we can't stream games from a console. Like we can't on Android. Like they're not letting us do anything. And you know, we're gonna work with them. We're gonna get through it and everything. And then months went by and nothing happened. And then all of a sudden that preview app expired, it was late 20, 20. And then a month later, Microsoft came out and said, yeah, actually apple just said no to us. They're not gonna let us do this. They want us to publish every game, an Xbox game cloud game individually to the app store,

Paul Thurrott (01:22:56):
Which is without the, and they're like, but guys, there were music and video streaming services. Why can't there be game streaming services. Apple came out with a new version of their app store policies that specifically spelled out that they were not gonna allow this games have to use in-app purchases to unlock new features of functionality was the, the language apple used. And it was like, what, what are you talking about? These are cloud stream games like that doesn't make any sense. Netflix doesn't create a new app for every movie and TV show they make, why would Microsoft have to do this apple lashed or Microsoft last shut mic apple at the time, it was actually kind of incredible. And they basically said, well, we're not doing, you know, we're gonna figure out some other way to get this on Apple's platform and the way they figured out, eventually it took, it took six months or some period of time, but they eventually started doing it through the web browser on Apple's devices.

Paul Thurrott (01:23:49):
So you can do like safari based streaming of Xbox cloud. I mean, it's not, you know, it's not perfect, but whatever. They also did a nice little middle finger thing. I, which I thought was beautiful. Fairly recently when they brought Fortnite, which is banned on the iPhone and iPad because of epic, also having a similar legal argument with them over this exact issue. They brought Fortnite back to the iPhone and iPad for free <laugh> through cross call gaming. The first time any game title was offered for free to anybody through Microsoft service, they're gonna be doing more of that. In fact, that was also part of this past week's announcements. So back to this report, the UK competition of markets authority looked at a bunch of different things with both of these platform makers and specifically their app stores. And the, the Microsoft thing came up.

Paul Thurrott (01:24:33):
And this is actually really interesting to me. I, I surmised at the time our guest was apple had just come up with something called apple arcade and they didn't want anything on their platform competing with that, cuz it was a brand new service, et cetera, et cetera. So they, they didn't say anything about that. That that's still, I still have. I still think that might have something to do with it. But according to the UK game streaming services will undermine Apple's broader services push. And the biggest part of Apple's services today is the app store and the biggest part of the app store. And I mean like over 50% of it is in app purchases in games and that's Jo that's like job one, like this is, this is why apple won't come down on that 30% fee for the biggest players, which would include Microsoft or Netflix or Amazon or whoever like the big guys where they make all of their revenues, by the way from, you know, app in app services or in app fees or whatever.

Paul Thurrott (01:25:32):
So that's, that's the first thing like they they've got this new services business. They don't want anything to screw with it, but the big one and this one was actually based on internal apple emails is they don't want anything that undercuts undercuts the iPhones advantage in hardware, apple sells premium devices that offer the best performance, have the best GPUs. And it's all about on device. Everything. If you bring in a service that can stream games that are console quality to a phone, that it doesn't matter how powerful that phone is, this thing will run just as well on a crappy Android device, as it does on a thousand dollars iPhone. You've just undercut the thing that is responsible for 68% Apple's revenues.

Leo Laporte (01:26:13):

Paul Thurrott (01:26:14):
Interesting. And yeah, Craig FINI has an email where he explains that cloud streaming apps of any kind, make little sense for apple given our strength of providing high performance, local compute. And that is counter to our overall customer value proposition. Basically, even though it doesn't make any sense from the outside Apple's hardware revenue for iPhone sales was an influence in factor. This is UK, of course it is yes to restrict cloud gaming on OS of course that's why they did it. Of

Leo Laporte (01:26:43):
Course they did.

Paul Thurrott (01:26:44):
That is classic antitrust language and restrain of trade it's classic.

Leo Laporte (01:26:50):

Paul Thurrott (01:26:51):
And we'll see, you know, we'll see what happens, but I, I have a lot of people every time I publish anything about anything antitrust related, everyone's like, oh, nothing's gonna happen to these companies. You know, they're never gonna bit change anything. It's like, you know, I, I, I disagree. I think these things are chipping away, chipping away. And 

Leo Laporte (01:27:12):
Did you see, see changes Sunday show? It was all about big tech monopolies and

Paul Thurrott (01:27:18):
Why? No, I did not that he have

Leo Laporte (01:27:19):
To watch. He should watch it. Yeah. I

Paul Thurrott (01:27:21):
Didn't. He does a great job of explaining how

Leo Laporte (01:27:23):
These he's good. I think in this case he was off based on in fact, a few of the things. Well, I think he

Paul Thurrott (01:27:29):
It's our, it is our industry, I guess. Right.

Leo Laporte (01:27:30):
You know? Yeah. So we, he

Paul Thurrott (01:27:31):
Talks about like like, you know, black diamonds in Africa, like yeah, he nailed it. And he is like tech and like, yeah, not so not so much.

Leo Laporte (01:27:37):
There's some nuances he missed and so forth, but the general thrust is that you know, breaking up monopolies is what it takes to spur innovation. And as long as that's right at and T was sitting on the phone lines, you were never gonna get, you know, answering machines, modems and the internet and that's right. You know, and so, and I think it's a good point. It's well taken. And as long as Google, apple, Microsoft and Facebook are sitting on tech, you're not gonna get any competitors.

Paul Thurrott (01:28:06):
That's right. It's all about protecting what you have, you know? Yeah. Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:28:10):
So, and I don't think that's wrong. I mean, there were some in the, in some of the details, I think you missed some of the nuance. Yeah. In fact, this is really even with, with what you just said, Apple's justification, Apple's rationalization is we want to give our users the best experience and because they're using that's,

Paul Thurrott (01:28:28):
But this, this, that argument has been P pulled apart. So effectively,

Leo Laporte (01:28:32):
Well, not necessarily gonna read this, don't, don't confuse that with what they want. Right. We're not saying we're gonna give the users what they want. We wanna give 'em the best experience. And we don't think given that they have a supercomputer in their pocket that running off of somebody else's servers is the best experience. And I think you technically make that argument

Paul Thurrott (01:28:52):
Technically, I think. Okay. So actually, I, so I actually just wrote that

Leo Laporte (01:28:54):

Paul Thurrott (01:28:55):
I said, no, because becomes a tug of war. Maybe. No, I, I, and by the way, the, like I said, the UK report has to do with a lot more than what I just said a lot more. This is just one tiny little issue. I pulled this out because of the Microsoft thing. The, they actually effectively pull apart every single argument that apple makes about the quality and the reliability and the privacy and the security and all this stuff, the apple, this things apple says publicly or nonsense. Like one of the things they talked about was this we made, we lowered our fees from 30% to 15% for 90 something. Percent of developers absolutely true. That impacted their revenues from the app store by 0.05%. It was such a, it was like, it was the developers

Leo Laporte (01:29:34):
Under a million in revenue.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:36):
It made no difference to any. Yeah. So yeah, most developers are, are, are having lower fees, which are now only five to six times what master charges <laugh>. But, but the ma vast majority of revenues come from a handful of really huge developers who by the way, are all paying 30%. And that's why Amazon just pulled their stores out of or the ability to buy directly from apps off of Android, cuz Google's going down the same, you know, they're enforcing that same rule. It's the, the, the, the, you gotta re it's it's long. It's like I said, 356 pages, this UK competition whatever the name of the organization is the UK competition in markets, the 30 report is astonishing. It's excellent. It is, it is, is, so is full of such clarity. <Laugh> good. They literally break down every argument that both apple and Google and their competitors make and almost universally land on the side of apple and Google's competitors. It's like, yeah, what these companies are saying is nonsense. Here's why <laugh> and you know, whatever, it's, it's very, very interesting. And to people who kind of care about this stuff and know about it, it's not surprising, but it's heartening to see an organization in a position authority. Finally, just come out and say, yeah, this what they're saying is nonsense.

Leo Laporte (01:30:59):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, what's when what's great is they've got the emails to, to kind

Paul Thurrott (01:31:03):
Of yep. Oh yeah. That, that's what the line, apple thing story. That's once, once you have countries getting involved <laugh> right. The illegal process occurs where they can start subpoenaing and getting internal information and then you can see what's really going on. Cause there's the face they present at WWDC and whatever other events and it's all like, we're saving the world. Ooh <laugh> you know, and it's like, yeah, it's a little more nuance than that. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:31:29):

Mary Jo Foley (01:31:32):
Was, was Microsoft in John Oliver's report

Mary Jo Foley (01:31:38):
Cause nobody ever puts them in there and I'm like, they should be in there too. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:31:41):
You're like the classic Coke of antitrust now, you know? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:31:44):
He didn't even mention the DOJ prosecution of Microsoft in the nineties. Yeah. Yeah. 

Paul Thurrott (01:31:50):
People, it like, like IE, I mean, I think, I think most people it's ancient history, you know? Yeah. It's great. I, I will say in some ways the notion that a company bundled the browser and got raped over the calls, like they did sounds a little quaint today compared to what's going on with apple and Google and I, yeah, for sure. And, and apple and Google hit a much bigger market today than Microsoft did back then, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But you know what? Yeah, you gotta remember <laugh> how crappy this company was. Like, you forget what a cancer Microsoft was in this industry and how thoroughly they destroyed competitors. And that the company that brought them that made that us antitrust thing disappeared basically during, right after the trial or right during the trial as they were swallowed by AOL because they couldn't compete anymore because Microsoft destroyed them, just like it destroyed word perfect. And Lotus and whatever other companies wrote, you know,

Leo Laporte (01:32:41):
He really focused mostly I'm looking at it on YouTube right now. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> on Google, Amazon and apple. Those were the mm-hmm <affirmative> the big three. He, he not on meta, you know, he mentions meta. But no, it was really mostly about Google, Microsoft and Google Amazon, apple. I mean,

Paul Thurrott (01:33:00):
What was the Amazon was the, the Amazon thing is, is, is almost not even tech. Right. It's really about

Leo Laporte (01:33:05):
He's talking about self, I guess. Yeah. He's really talking about self dealing in a lot of this. Yeah. 

Paul Thurrott (01:33:10):
Google has a, a rich history of, you know, preferring their own service. Well, actually apple does too, you know, apple got in trouble for that in the app store. Like you do a search for an app and like an apple app would come up. You're like, what <laugh> heck is this?

Leo Laporte (01:33:21):
Yeah, that's exactly. What's

Paul Thurrott (01:33:22):
Although it's an organic search result, you know, that's what happens.

Leo Laporte (01:33:26):
Yeah. Chuck Schumer's daughter is a registered lobbyist for Amazon. I didn't know that that was a oh wow. Fascinating revelation as well. Interesting. what a, why world, you know? Yep. Let's let's talk about the good stuff. Technology, whew. And mostly call of duty, frankly.

Paul Thurrott (01:33:46):
Thank you. Yes. So I I'm, I've been stuck playing a years old version of call duty for years because the latest versions just don't work for me from a multiplayer perspective. There, there were technical issues with the original, well, the original remake of modern warfare affair. If that makes sense that I think it was 2019 modern warfare black ops, cold war, same problem. Lot of lag, lot of latency issues. The world war II game, they came up with this past year was not great. <Laugh>, you know, frankly, it's done very poorly in the context of college duty. So they're gonna turn it around this year. So modern warfare two's coming out, there'll be a new version of war zone, lots of multiplayer modes, lots of they're changing everything. Right. So they're, they're trying to atone for the sins of the current title and we'll see.

Paul Thurrott (01:34:36):
But I hope so, cuz at some point I don't know how long I could play this. This is like a Chi like I don't know what it is. I I've been stuck doing the same thing for years now and I'm I'm I really, really need something new and I need it to be called duty and I need it to be good. And this <laugh> game looks good. It it's, if you're familiar with call of duty, mono warfare two, the original, this is the classic with the sh you know, the scene on the ship and everything with the barrels and the crates and they've, they're, they're absolutely redoing that it was one of the classic multiplayer maps of all time. It looks, it looks, it looks beautiful. So we'll see, we'll see what happens. But I don't think from active vision's perspective, they could replace the current game quickly enough. So I think they're trying to wipe everyone's memory of this pass games.

Leo Laporte (01:35:26):
Now I don't want to stir up trouble here, but it, it doesn't mention PlayStation.

Paul Thurrott (01:35:34):
Oh no, it's still play. It's still plays. Okay. So, so

Leo Laporte (01:35:37):
Preorder for the Xbox, but they're it is gonna be,

Paul Thurrott (01:35:39):
I did. Yeah. So the way this has shifted a little bit, you know, my college duty used to be like an Xbox exclusive, not the games weren't exclusive, but things would happen for us in Xbox. Then they did a deal with Sony that all moved over to Sony these days, they still have their Sony thing, but honestly, things happen day in, day on both platforms. So what Activision will do is they'll release a an announcement on both for both. So the, the announcement came from Activision. It was on the Xbox wire blog, but there was also one on the PlayStation blog. I just covered the one from oh,

Leo Laporte (01:36:09):
Okay. Okay. Good.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:10):
From the Microsoft side. Yeah. Oh. Cause you know, real men play on Xbox. You,

Leo Laporte (01:36:14):
We don't have Xbox. Well, I agree. But Michael, our 19 year old plays on PlayStation five and he will be, oh God, sorry. <Laugh> I'll be very upset. Very upset.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:24):
No, no, it's it. It's all happening.

Leo Laporte (01:36:25):
It's still cross platform.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:27):
Okay. It's on PC as well. Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:36:30):
Let's talk Microsoft 365, which is unusual given that we just did gaming. Usually that ends, that brings a show to a grinding halt, but no, there's <laugh> yep. There's more. And there's gaming news as it turns Huray Huray Mary

Mary Jo Foley (01:36:46):
Jo, although not Huray in this case, but

Leo Laporte (01:36:49):
<Laugh> well, I think it's just about time.

Mary Jo Foley (01:36:52):
Wow. Yeah. So there is a report in the verge that Microsoft is testing casual games running in teams. Why is a good question? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> oh, I, I think the why from their standpoint is twofold. It's we need to try to get people to engage in other ways inside of teams. So why not let them like play solitaire together or word ment together and talk about it and chat about it on teams. I, or, and, or this could be, or, or this could just be a way to try to get teams consumer to grow because so far they've got chat out there. Like Chad got pinned to the IE 11 task bar and you never, you still never hear anyone saying they're using

Leo Laporte (01:37:42):

Paul Thurrott (01:37:42):
I do feel like little simple games where a thing back in the, you know, messenger, windows, messenger, windows, live messenger days. Like that sounds familiar. It's not something I ever engaged in. Yeah. I gotta tell you though, hybrid homework, whatever.

Paul Thurrott (01:38:00):
I want less time in teams. I think that there's a real fatigue that comes from having as you interact with people virtually. And I want less of it. I don't want meetings that are 90 minutes long. Yeah. I don't want meme threads where people are sending in funny gifts and stupid little videos. And look, my kid did some stupid thing at school. I, I, I feel like that is a weight that is harmful to people and mm-hmm, <affirmative> giving us more stuff to do in teams just from that perspective. Yeah. I think is bad. We, this is one I've already gotten you. You asked you why would anyone want this? Don't ask that on TWiTtter. You're gonna find out why. And I don't, this is the same conversation we had earlier. I accept that there are these small times where some people need something and blah, blah, blah. This is not something that should be a mainstream activity for most people. And I, I feel very strongly that this is wrongheaded, but just from the perspective of like, I care mostly about technology in this case or whatever, are we never gonna run out of ad things to add to teams is teams. I know a black hole that can just suck in everything now, is that what this is being

Mary Jo Foley (01:39:10):
<Laugh> it has. That's what it feels like. Right. it does the other, the other part of the verges report, which is kind of interesting is they talked about mesh for teams or teams for mesh. I can remember which way that product name goes, but you know, the idea that you would be represented by an avatar and a virtual space inside of teams, and you could talk and dance around a campfire, or maybe just play word ament instead together in a virtual environment. Oh boy. I know. Yeah, yeah. <Laugh> yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Is this just a rumor though? This is not Microsoft hasn't confirmed it, but it sounds like the verge has occurred. This sounds been testing somewhere,

Paul Thurrott (01:39:51):
As soon as you hear it. It sounds, yeah. It sounds

Mary Jo Foley (01:39:54):

Paul Thurrott (01:39:55):

Mary Jo Foley (01:39:55):
That's it totally sad. Yeah. Yeah. It totally sounds believable. It does not sound crazy. It like I, Microsoft thinks, oh,

Paul Thurrott (01:40:03):
It sounds crazy.

Mary Jo Foley (01:40:05):
<Laugh> it sounds crazy. But Microsoft's dying to get more consumer business and love and teams. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:19):

Mary Jo Foley (01:40:20):
Yeah. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:40:21):
This is, you know, so you had, Leo had asked earlier about the gaming features in edge and whether that could be turned off and mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. I, I, a lot of the things I don't like that are in windows 11 or teams or edge or office or whatever can be turned off. Right, right. But the thing we've lost and by the way, one of the things that I think was one of the few good things that come out of the windows eight era was this notion of everything comes with you, that you, everything you're gonna sink mm-hmm <affirmative>. So when you go on a new PC, if you've spent the time to configure things a certain way, this new computer could be like that too. If that's what you want. And that's completely gone away, right? Every time I, and I, you know, I'm an outlier in this case, but I bring up new computers all the time.

Paul Thurrott (01:41:07):
I install Microsoft office. One of the first things I do is take five or seven minutes to go through all the stupid little features. I need to be exactly some way in Microsoft word. And I have to do this every single time, because that stuff does not sync. Never has it never will. I don't think the edge things that, you know, we were talking about earlier, whatever edge features you want, don't want, you have to do that every single time. If there are things you don't like in windows 11, they to sink, is this basically off, it's gone. You have to configure that every single time. Right. You know, mm-hmm <affirmative> and I don't, I teams being overloaded with new features would be a little easier to take if me signing in meant that the things I don't like and had already turned off would just be off every time mm-hmm <affirmative>. If I only had to turn 'em off once I'd be like, okay, whatever overload the thing, it doesn't matter. Right. Cause I'm not gonna see it. You can't, you can't do that. Cuz they want, you want, they want you to interact with this stuff. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, you know, they want you in front of it. That's how it gets usage.

Mary Jo Foley (01:42:02):
Just like focused inbox. You know, I was gonna say it, <laugh> never shuts off every time I reset a PC it's back on again. I'm like, okay, I know you want me to try this, but I hate it. I don't want it. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:42:15):
Yep. Yeah. Yep. Well, at least you've got echo cancellation,

Mary Jo Foley (01:42:20):
Right? Here's some really good features coming to teams that people have been asking for actually echo cancellation starting to roll out now to teams, users on windows, Mac, and coming soon to mobile. This is, you know, when your speaker is too close to your mic sorry, your audio and video or your I'm I can't talk. You got

Paul Thurrott (01:42:42):
You're right. You got

Mary Jo Foley (01:42:43):
It. Speaker is too close. And you get in that loop where you can hear an echo. Yeah. that happens. This is going to fix that. And Microsoft says the way they fix this is using machine learning and training big data sets, training, big data sets. They also are fixing interoperability interruptability wow. Not interoperability

Paul Thurrott (01:43:08):
Interruptability or interoperability

Mary Jo Foley (01:43:11):
<Laugh> interrupt. Right. So okay. Yeah. So when two people are talking or you're trying to talk and listen at the same time and you know how sometimes you can't do that. Like if you're talking, you can't hear what what's going on. They're they've figured out again through machine learning, they say how to make it so that without distorting the speech pattern or anything else that you'll still be able to hear and speak simultaneously and you won't have any interruptions. That also would be very interesting and useful. And then the whole idea of reverberation, where sometimes it sounds like you're TA your voice gets tinny and you're talking into a cave almost again, machine learning the magic button. They're fixing that they've been working with 30,000 hours of speech samples to try to perfect this and make it so that won't keep happening in teams. Starting to roll out. Now, all of these are not future things they're coming now. So unlike games and teams, this seems kind of useful and something people might want <laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:44:16):

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:17):

Leo Laporte (01:44:18):

Paul Thurrott (01:44:19):
It's like a tin tonight simulator, you know?

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:22):

Paul Thurrott (01:44:23):
Maybe they could maybe they could use,

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:25):
Get rid of your

Paul Thurrott (01:44:26):
Tin to solve tin. Exactly.

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:28):
Ugh, mine too. I have it in one ear. I'm like, oh,

Paul Thurrott (01:44:30):
It's like you ever have a mosquito fly into ear now imagine it never leaves. That's what it's

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:35):
Fun. It's terrible. Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:44:37):
Well we all three of us have it. That's good news. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't realize that. Yeah. I thought I was good.

Paul Thurrott (01:44:42):
Thanks van hill.

Leo Laporte (01:44:44):
Yeah, exactly. I blame Eddie ran. Ha

Paul Thurrott (01:44:48):
I'm pretty sure it's genetic or something, but anyway,

Leo Laporte (01:44:52):
Know there's a, it's like 30% of everybody, but you know, when we were younger, we all listen to music too loud and I'm sure that had something do with

Paul Thurrott (01:45:01):
At least the music we had was good crap. They listen to not,

Leo Laporte (01:45:04):
Yeah, do not. <Laugh> outlooks, mobile. Another nice feature that you just can't live without.

Paul Thurrott (01:45:11):
Yeah. Paul. All right. So they're adding, they're at this, this should, this should cause alarm when you hear this, but they're adding an algorithmic news feed for enterprise accounts. You're like, wait, what? So, you know, if you use like like Facebook, for example, like has some kind of a news feed now, and it's like news, it's really terrible news. It's like, it makes like the, the things you see in widgets look, you know, high quality by comparison. But that's what it sounds like. That's actually not what this is. This is for kind of corporate news and it's stuff that's related to what you care about or are interested or are involved in. So yeah, you will see things like, Hey, Bobby's having a birthday or, you know, they're celebrating their, whatever. There will be stuff like that, but at least it's work related. So and I, I, again, I don't know who uses stuff like this, like in the same way that they've added a, a search highlights feature in the latest, the coming version of windows 11, which is something that appears when you bring up the search box without typing, you get this stuff over on the side, it's like, Hey, did you know today was flag day?

Paul Thurrott (01:46:14):
Or which was yesterday or whatever. Like they'll have topical information. So it's like you, you went to search for something in particular, but now you're getting distracted by something and you go out down some rabbit hole and it's like, what was I doing again? So that's a good feature to have in windows, but this is also being added to the, there'll be a feed. Now when you search. So when you go to the search interface, which is one of the tabs or whatever, they called them in mobile you'll actually see this feed below the search box. So, well, you can find out about your coworkers and stuff and see what games they want to play in teams. Cuz it's fun. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:46:48):
I don't know. <Laugh> something, I don't know. Something sounds fun. Something like that. <Laugh> all right. Mm. Yeah. Well, this was all mixed up for me. I don't know if I understand how this it's all over the place, but I think it'd be a good time. Take a break cuz I do know one thing the back of the book is next mm-hmm <affirmative> yes. With some nice beer and other things, but first a word. Now we're gonna talk to you about our sponsor collide. If you are like us, a business that uses slack for your internal messaging, sorry teams guys. But this is a slack kind of add on called collide and it's all about security. It's really a new take on endpoint management because honestly I think a lot of us have learned that the old school way of doing it with MDM and locking down devices and you know, pouring crazy glue to the USB ports and all of that stuff without considering the needs O of your users or even attempting to educate them about what you're up to is counterproductive.

Leo Laporte (01:48:02):
Collide was built by like-minded security practitioners who in the past saw just how much MDM was disrupting end users in in fact, because end users would get frustrated so badly, they'd end up using their own devices, right. To do work and then they'd bring it into the office. And well, you know, the rest is history in that scenario, everyone loses KA collide is different. Collide is a sec endpoint management solution that involves your users. I know this is hard for some it people like I don't wanna involve my users, but KA collide does it in a very, I think, a brilliant way. It starts with a message on their slack, inviting 'em to install the collide end point says, Hey, we wanna secure your system. The company just started using collide and here, let me walk you through installing it. It's a conversation for one thing.

Leo Laporte (01:48:53):
And, and that's their first slack message. That's the first thing they get from collide from there, from there on collide will regularly send employees recommendations when their device is in an insecure state. Things like, you know, the screen lock, not having a password and it tells them, you know, this is why you need this. If, if you leave for lunch right now and your screen lock kicks in nothing's to stop your, you know, Larry, the guy in the other cubicle from sending a hysterical email out on your account, you know, and, and that's gonna embarrass everyone or maybe more difficult to solve or nuanced issues like when people, you know, they set up two factor, good, we like that. But then they download the recovery codes and they stick them. <Laugh> at plain text in their download folders and leave them there.

Leo Laporte (01:49:40):
Not a good idea. Collide sees it. The end point you, you know agent sees it, notes it and then sends a message saying, Hey, I noted a problem. Help me out here. And because it's talking directly to your employees, it's educating them about the company's policies, how to keep their devices secure. It gives 'em real, tangible examples. It's not as theoretical scenarios. I either think is a brilliant idea. I want you to check it out. It works on Mac Linux and of course, windows devices it puts end users. First is for teams that use slack endpoint management in your slack get endpoint management that puts the user first visit collide K O L I D to learn more and activate a free 14 day trial today. No credit card required collide. K O L I D And when you sign up for that new trial, as a way of saying thank you a little goody bag of collide swag, I love it. K O L I D This is a great idea. And I want you to try it out. Collide.Com/Ww. All right, now we are back on track for the back of the book. We will kick things off with Paul thro and a tip of the week.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:05):
We're not done with games.

Leo Laporte (01:51:06):
Oh, damnit <laugh> <laugh> what do you

Paul Thurrott (01:51:12):
Get in in tandem with not E three this week Microsoft is having an Xbox deals unlock sale where you can get up to 80% off of Xbox games. And this one's kind of fun because they always do this actually. But I always like pointing this out. You can filter the list of games by it by different criteria, including such things as percentage off low to high. So you can see the games that like are the biggest sales or whatever mm-hmm <affirmative>, or I should say high to low or price like high or low to high in that case. Right. So you can see the cheapest games are the ones that have like the biggest discounts. So for example, there's a game called we happy few, which is 80% off. I like it. Yep. Yep. 60 bucks, normally $6 right now. Wow. Metro last light deducts. This is kind of a classic, but again, $20, normally 2 99. Now that one is 85% off. So definitely check through this list. If you are looking for some inexpensive games. So some good stuff here. I don't know when it's gonna end. It's not gonna last forever, obviously. I'm not sure what the end time is, but it is still available today. I think it started at their maybe around their Bethesda event on Sunday, so possibly for the week or something like that, but definitely check it out. Cool.

Paul Thurrott (01:52:24):
Yeah. And then two quick app picks both are browsers Firefox, or should a Missoula's week released a new version of Firefox that has enabled total, total quick bolt, totally total cookie protection. It's like total war total cookie protection. <Laugh> by default. So this is there and it's not an enhancement. It's actually a compliment to the enhanced tracking protection feature that Firefox already offers. And this is a way to block trackers, obviously that feature uses kind of a list that's maintained Mo Mozilla. So they have to always keep it up to date. It works pretty well, but total cookie protection actually just works on all cookies. And basically what it does is it puts them in a cookie jar. Of course it does. That's fun. And it <laugh> the idea is that they're trying to prevent sites from using cookies to track you around the internet. So pretty

Leo Laporte (01:53:10):
It kills third party cookies, which is good.

Paul Thurrott (01:53:12):
Yeah. Which is what frankly want

Leo Laporte (01:53:14):
Looking for nothing wrong with cookies. Yeah. It's the third party cookies we want. That's right. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:53:18):
Yeah. So Mozilla now claims the Firefox is the most private and secure major browser available across windows and Mac. I, I assume the major, the word major is to exclude brow brave from that. But there you go. So, and that's good. And in sharp contrast to what Google is doing with the privacy sandbox, where they're just inventing new types of third party cookies. So there you go. So consider that. And if you are a Vivaldi fan you should know that after several years, I, I think they announced this feature like as long as five or six years ago their male client is now available. So it comes with the browser. It's kinda like the old communicator thing back in the day. There's actually a, a calendar component that comes with that as well. And I think a feed reader there is, and yeah, it looks pretty,

Leo Laporte (01:54:01):
It's become the teams of browsers, this thing. Yeah. The teams

Paul Thurrott (01:54:05):
So many features

Leo Laporte (01:54:06):
At this

Paul Thurrott (01:54:07):
Point. I looked at this really quickly. I, I, I am not using it and let me, I'm not gonna bring it. It doesn't matter. But I, when I looked at it, it looked like it was IMAP and pop three and it's like, seriously, like I, I think we need a native support for and you know, the Microsoft account type stuff and Gmail and all that. And then I would, I would, I'd really like to have a nice high quality you know, like local email app. Like I haven't really used something like that in a long time. Be

Leo Laporte (01:54:35):
Careful cuz it does try to download your entire Ima cash. It saves all the messages when you first install it. You have to make sure you tell it. I can

Paul Thurrott (01:54:44):
See that I'll interest try. Okay, good. Also just a random sign note. This is in the notes, but notion which, which we're using for notes now recently purchased a company I had not heard of called Kron and as its name suggests they make a calendar app. Oh yeah. Nice. So it was it's in, I think Kron was a, like a limited private beta kind of a deal, but they're trying to, they're expanding obviously, so that we'll see. Well that works. I don't know if it'll be a standalone app or they integrate it directly into a notion, but I just saw a headline about that and kind of quickly read it. But that's interesting

Leo Laporte (01:55:19):
Would be cool if you could embed calendars in in, yeah. They have a calendar view on the database. I use that when I travel. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not really a full calendar. I think a lot of people use notion kind of, you know, as a to-do list and as a

Paul Thurrott (01:55:35):
Daily. Yeah. It's like you're organizing your life and it's like, well

Leo Laporte (01:55:38):
Calendar makes calendar. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Let's do an enterprise pick of the week enough of this gaming nonsense. Mary Jo Foley.

Mary Jo Foley (01:55:47):
<Laugh> sorry. Yes, this is a very enterprisey pick. No, no fun here. No balloon stores

Leo Laporte (01:55:54):
<Laugh> thank you.

Mary Jo Foley (01:55:56):
Windows admin center is coming to the Azure portal. Why should you care about this? Windows? Admin center is a server management tool. And Microsoft says by bringing this to Azure, you're going to be able to granularly. Is that a word? Manage your windows server Azure, I as virtual machines from right within the portal. So the idea is by doing this, you're not gonna have to remote desktop into your virtual machines to administer them. It'll simplify your life greatly. Microsoft says you'll get new features like enhanced view of your virtual machine usage, performance monitoring, viewing of events, and much, much more. So if you are someone who already is running windows server on Azure windows server 2016 or higher and those are your VMs in the public cloud, you'll be able to start testing and working with windows admin center in the Azure portal. Now see no gaming here. No,

Leo Laporte (01:57:03):
No like that, that was a heavy lift. Holy cow. That's

Mary Jo Foley (01:57:06):
A heavy lift.

Leo Laporte (01:57:07):
No that's if you games and teams, you might be a more loop you.

Mary Jo Foley (01:57:10):
Yeah. Why can't we have games and windows admin center, right?

Leo Laporte (01:57:15):
Don't say that out last. So

Mary Jo Foley (01:57:16):
Don don't give them any ideas.

Leo Laporte (01:57:18):

Mary Jo Foley (01:57:18):
Exactly, exactly.

Leo Laporte (01:57:20):
Codename pick of the week.

Mary Jo Foley (01:57:22):
Yes. This has been the codename pick before it's Gibralter Gibralter was the codename for a version of windows defender that Microsoft has been working on that protects not just your local PC, but your whole family of devices. So your Android phones, your iOS phones, it kind of gives you like a central portal kind of view into the security of all of your devices. I, when this, I don't know if it was a leak or a planned I guess it was a planned beta. When it, when it's a beta, I actually downloaded this. I forgot I even had it on my machine. It's supposed to give you like real time notifications about safety issues, security tips, steps that you can do to stay, stay ahead of hackers. I don't remember seeing any of that, but I guess I had it on my machines and I had it on my phone and the reason I know I had it was because I just got a notification this week saying the preview is about to end. So that makes me think this thing is gonna launch soon. Hmm. I'm using soon in quotes, TM the soon, the way Microsoft uses it. Cuz we don't really know when yet, but I think it will actually happen. And I'm curious to see how they position this and price it and make it available. So keep your ears open for Gibraltar, the windows defender product protecting your whole family of devices.

Leo Laporte (01:58:40):
Hmm. Okay. Huh? Yes. So it's software. Yes. But comes and it'll be on windows. So

Mary Jo Foley (01:58:50):
It's, there's so many things that are named defender now. <Laugh> yeah know, it's kind of hard to keep it straight. Okay. But yeah, this, this is something that Microsoft already has windows defender that you have on your windows machine. Right. But this is more of a, like I keep saying a portal experience, like something meant to show you the security status of all your devices that are connected in.

Leo Laporte (01:59:14):
Cool. Yeah. How about some beer?

Mary Jo Foley (01:59:17):
Yes. How about some deer? So I don't know about you guys. If you've had watermelon beers, I hate them. I think they are terrible. I don't think watermelon belongs in beer. Just, just

Paul Thurrott (01:59:29):
Personal press. See. Wow. Just taking a stand right there.

Mary Jo Foley (01:59:32):
Just taking a stand. But you know, it is really good in beer and a similar, but very surprisingly good to me is cucumber. Huh? So there is a beer made by a brewery in Brooklyn called wild east. It's called Alfresco cucumber. And they actually take a col ale, you know, col she's a German style ale. That's very bright, not happy, kind of a summary type, light beer. They condition the beer on cucumbers. Like they actually let it, you know, sit on top of cucumbers and it gives it a cucumber aroma and flavor, but not too much cucumber. So it's not just pure cucumber all the time and no beer. It's a nice mix of beer and cucumber. Very light low a B 5%. I think Micah Sergeant would like the beer. I know he doesn't drink a lot of beer,

Leo Laporte (02:00:26):
But yeah. I don't think he can drink beer. Is that has gluten in it. Doesn't it?

Mary Jo Foley (02:00:29):
Oh, you're right. He, he has a gluten issue, but if he could drink a beer, I think he would enjoy this

Leo Laporte (02:00:34):
Beer. If there were a beer, Micah could drink, it would be this

Mary Jo Foley (02:00:38):
<Laugh>. It would be like this. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:00:39):
Would you garnish

Paul Thurrott (02:00:40):
It with a slice of cucumber?

Leo Laporte (02:00:41):
Is that what

Mary Jo Foley (02:00:42):

Leo Laporte (02:00:42):
To me <laugh> I bet you would. My little wedge. Yeah, yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (02:00:46):
Yeah. Yeah. I it's very refreshing this time of year when it starts getting hot and humid and you want something not too heavy. I still drink my IPAs, but if you want something lighter, like a colsh the nice

Leo Laporte (02:00:57):
Me to drink it Koss a lot actually.

Mary Jo Foley (02:00:59):
Yeah. Koss are very nice. Refreshing

Leo Laporte (02:01:00):
For summertime. Yes. Well this is it. That's it. Summertime is coming and but, but windows, weekly's leaving because it's over <laugh> our summer edition is in a week though. So we'll be back. I promise you who won

Paul Thurrott (02:01:17):
The tug war? Is that what happens? Do we

Leo Laporte (02:01:19):
Declare winner? Yeah, we should. We should have, you know, just like an formula, one racing they have the driver of the week. Let's have the tugger or the dozer of the week.

Paul Thurrott (02:01:27):
The tugger of

Leo Laporte (02:01:28):
The tugger of the 

Paul Thurrott (02:01:32):
Well, I think I it's given that I admitted defeat on my,

Leo Laporte (02:01:35):
I think Mary Jo is gonna always be one the tugger of the week. Well done married, Joe. Congratulations.

Mary Jo Foley (02:01:42):
Paul said I was right about touch on laptops. I'm just gonna like revel in that.

Leo Laporte (02:01:47):
Wow. We'll send you the the bronze rope award and you. Yep. Congratulations.

Paul Thurrott (02:01:53):
Every time I hit, like, it'll be a little hair or something for my dog is on my screen, whatever it is. And I hit it with my finger and it does something, I think sting very dress <laugh> she was

Leo Laporte (02:02:04):
Right. We do windows weekly of a,

Paul Thurrott (02:02:06):
It just like a daily comeuppance.

Leo Laporte (02:02:08):
<Laugh> <laugh> sorry. We do windows weekly of a Wednesday morning around 11:00 AM Pacific. That's our time. 2:00 PM. Your time in the Eastern time zone. It's this Sorachi zone. Sit out, buddy. Sit down, sit down, buddy. Sit down. <Laugh> did he hurt his paw? Did he hurt his little paw? He

Mary Jo Foley (02:02:26):
Did. He heard his little paw.

Leo Laporte (02:02:28):
Aw. How'd he heard his little paw.

Mary Jo Foley (02:02:30):
I don't know what he did. Probably jumping off of the cabinet, which he does all the time he

Paul Thurrott (02:02:34):
Was being bad is how he heard it. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:02:37):
In bad cat. No cookie. Yeah. that's 2:00 PM. Eastern. That is 1800 UTC on a Wednesday. If you wanna stop by and watch, you can, actually there's live audio as well as video streams there. If you're watching live chat, or in our fabulous discord chat club, TWiTt members get access to the country club chat seven bucks a month. Oh, that's not all you get a free versions of all the shows, the special TWiTt plus feed and a reminder. Tomorrow I will be hosting with Stacy Higginbotham Stacey's book club. We just read, I just finished this morning in the Nick of time, the new Neil Stevenson novel termination shock. Lots to talk about with that. So if you're in, in the club tomorrow, 9:00 AM Pacific noon, Eastern details are in the, in the events schedule on the bulletin board up there at the, at the main house.

Leo Laporte (02:03:34):
So you just go on up and check that out and we'll see you then if you're not a member of club TWiT, what, what come on go to TWiT and sign up today. You're gonna love the new show we're working on. Can't tell you much, but it's gonna be good. It's gotta be so good. It's one of the things that club Toit lets us do is incubate new shows like this in space, which are now, now has heard publicly. Let's see. After the fact you can get on demand versions of all the shows advertising supported. So they're free at for windows weekly, you can watch it on YouTube. There's a YouTube channel dedicated to windows weekly. And since we didn't pay, play any Paddington, the bear having tea with the queen videos today, I think we will be there. <Laugh> they pulled us down last week. This is

Paul Thurrott (02:04:23):

Leo Laporte (02:04:24):
Strikes. Oh my yes. Did they really? Yeah. Canal studio, which owns the rights to Paddington. Oh, on TWiTg. Yeah. Last week. Sure. We showed, you know, it was this great thing. Part of the diamond Jubilee, they had the queen having tea with Paddington and animated Paddington. It was really cute.

Paul Thurrott (02:04:40):
Well, the, the best things about that is like YouTube gives you these great tools where you can kind of fight back and, and make your position and, and it'll be fine.

Leo Laporte (02:04:48):
Yeah. Right. <Laugh> well, we did. And it's still down it's so

Paul Thurrott (02:04:52):
Was so terrible. It's always like, no, they, they said no, they said, no, <laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:04:57):
No, not gonna knock. Gosh. Anyway, we didn't do that here. So I think we're, I think we're good. Well, we did play that. There was a song in that internet Explorer. Farewell. Was that a commercial song? I

Paul Thurrott (02:05:10):
Miss you.

Leo Laporte (02:05:11):
Oh, we're in deep trouble.

Paul Thurrott (02:05:13):
Yo. Yeah. You bet it was

Leo Laporte (02:05:14):
Man. I guess, you know, if you think you're watching this show you're no, you're not. <Laugh> mm-hmm not, I hope you start

Paul Thurrott (02:05:20):
Live folks

Leo Laporte (02:05:21):
Cuz yeah. Yeah. Well it won't be on YouTube, but it will be, you know, at the best thing, avoid all the censorship, subscribe in your favorite podcast app and you'll get it automatically. The minute it's available. How about that? Leave is a five star review. Tell the world of your love for windows weekly and these two right here, your head dozers, Paul throt and Mary Jo Foley throt That's his blog become a premium member cuz there's great. Anecdotes galore you also if you want his book, the field guide to windows 10, soon to be 11, that'll Mary Jo Foley's ZD net blog. Is it all about The dynamic duo of windows reporting and a hell of a team at tug of war. Thank you. You too. <Laugh> and we'll see you next week on windows weekly. Bye bye.



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