Windows Weekly Episode 780 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word.
Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
Twitt InIt's time for windows weekly, big changes for the hollow lens team its leader is out Paul and Mary Jo. Talk about why windows 11, closer to completion. Paul walks me through the upgrade at 22 H two and call of duty. Modern warfare two is coming. It's all coming up next on windows, weekly podcasts you love

Mary Jo Foley (00:00:26):
From people you trust.

Leo Laporte (00:00:29):
This is TWiTT.

Leo Laporte (00:00:35):
This is windows weekly with Paul throt and Mary Jo Foley episode 780 recorded Wednesday, June 8th, 2022. Call of jury duty windows weekly is brought to you by Plex track the purple teaming platform. Save time and increased productivity with the premier cyber security reporting and workflow management product. Designed to support proactive security strategy from assessment through remediation. Visit Plex and claim your free month and buy new vey. Say goodbye to abandoned carts, poor approval rates and high chargebacks with Novey the platform fast forwarding to the next generation of payments. Turn payments into powerful accelerators for your and by hover, whether you're a developer photographer or small business, hover is something for you to expand your project and get the visibility you want. Go to to get 10% off your first purchase of any domain extension for the entire first year. It's time for windows weekly. <Laugh> a big sign. Paul Thora is here. Thro.Com. He is also an author, a book author, many, many, many, many, many books. Hey, somebody said you should have at lean You should have your your, that shelf on over your right shoulder there be the windows colors. But I think you kind of are trying to do that. Maybe put the red one up above would look like

Paul Thurrott (00:02:13):
Never occurred to me. Yeah, that's a

Leo Laporte (00:02:14):
Good point. It would be a windows logo. <Laugh> right. Wouldn't that be cool if

Paul Thurrott (00:02:17):
I have all the, yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah. I don't know if I have the right colors for that, but

Leo Laporte (00:02:21):
Eh, it's not through the right colors. That's Mary Jo Foley on the, on the right there. Hi, Mary Jo Foley.

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:28):
Hello. She writes, I don't have a windows logo, but

Leo Laporte (00:02:30):
That's fine. No, you have a bookshelf four out of five zoom calls involve bookshelves in the background. Right? Room Raider would give you, at least you, you start with an eight. If you've got a bookshelf behind you.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:42):
Wow. That's a very, a very Parisian apartment.

Leo Laporte (00:02:45):
It is. It is

Paul Thurrott (00:02:46):
Obviously bookshelves in

Leo Laporte (00:02:47):
Paris apartments. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We our studio died on a Sunday cause we had a power outage and I had to go home and do the show and of the four people on the show. I had a bookshelf behind me, Alex, Willhelm out a bookshelf behind me. Dan Gilmore had a bookshelf behind me. Only Jill Duffy from PC magazine did not, I didn't call her out though. Cuz she's very smart.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:09):
That sounds like you just did <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:03:10):
Well, she would have one probably on the other side. That's all. It was just exactly,

Mary Jo Foley (00:03:14):
Exactly off camera off camera

Leo Laporte (00:03:15):
And I'm sure somewhere in the house, Paul has a book or two,

Paul Thurrott (00:03:19):
Not anymore. We've all digital, the process of downsizing. Yeah, really? I mean we have a handful of books, but yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:03:26):
Really? Yep. I used to say that this is four or five years ago. I I would say on the radio show, this the end physical media is dead. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> you don't need physical media. You don't need albums, CDs books, DVDs. Right. And people would yell at me saying

Paul Thurrott (00:03:45):
If there is a nostalgia to it, there's also kind of a hipster element. I define a hipster as someone who was nostalgic for a time, they did not experience <laugh> that's

Leo Laporte (00:03:54):
Who's buying turntables people in their twenties. Yep,

Paul Thurrott (00:03:57):

Leo Laporte (00:03:57):

Paul Thurrott (00:03:58):
Oh its so good. Turntables are great because they're inconvenience and expensive. Yeah. But,

Leo Laporte (00:04:03):
And the music, you

Paul Thurrott (00:04:04):
Know, that's

Leo Laporte (00:04:05):

Paul Thurrott (00:04:05):
<Laugh> the music sounds fine. You know? Or can't sound fine. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I, I, I love books. I've always loved books. I, it it's a weird coincidence cuz when we moved to, we were just talk, my wife and I were just talking about this. We had S stored boxes and boxes of books at my parents' house when we moved to Phoenix and they eventually shipped them up. But in the interim, they never told us that they had taken those books out of their attic, which was dry and put them into the garage, which is wet. Oh. And half the books were destroyed. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:04:34):

Paul Thurrott (00:04:34):
No. Yeah. So that was, yeah, that was fun.

Leo Laporte (00:04:36):
Oh, but

Paul Thurrott (00:04:37):
You know what though? No. And there's

Mary Jo Foley (00:04:39):
Honestly I, no, but there's certain books you need to have in print still like cookbooks, right? Yes. You can get digital versions, but you want the physical version

Paul Thurrott (00:04:46):
Of that? No, you're right. You're no, absolutely. And we do. Yeah, we do have cookbooks.

Leo Laporte (00:04:50):
Mary Jo. I don't know if that's true.

Mary Jo Foley (00:04:52):
Yes. I know they get dirty.

Leo Laporte (00:04:55):
I don't know if that's true. If you have an iPad. Well,

Paul Thurrott (00:04:58):
Mary Jo would have them

Leo Laporte (00:05:00):

Paul Thurrott (00:05:00):
I could, she would have them electronically. If Microsoft had just made a book

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:05):
That weird. Yep. That

Leo Laporte (00:05:07):
We about had half the time. I wouldn't do it on a nook or a Kindle, but about half the time I cook on iPad off my laptop or iPad. And then the other half of the time I go to my cookbooks, I have 'em on the shelf in the kitchen and I'll open it up. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:20):
I just like perusing the physical.

Leo Laporte (00:05:22):
Oh, I love that. Makes it

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:23):
Makes ideas jump out. That's right. More than flipping through, like on a

Leo Laporte (00:05:27):
Screen my whole life, my mom, because she was a homemaker and like a big focus of her life was making the meals would in the morning go, she'd read at cookbooks all the time. In the morning, she would look through cookbooks and plan the dinner. So I grew up with that. It's funny cuz she's 88 now and I gave her a June oven. One of those Android connected, smart ovens. She loves it by the way, cuz you put in a bagel she's wow. Well I know she's very hip. So you put in a bagel, it goes, is that a bagel? Yeah. You want me to toast it? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> yeah. She kinda likes that. And, and she said, oh and honey, you saved my life because now I scroll. Instead of reading cookbooks, I scroll through the June of an app and look at, and it's very much like a cookbook there's pictures.

Paul Thurrott (00:06:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:06:14):
So now she does that and the, on her, on her iPhone. So I, you know, who knows the world is changing.

Paul Thurrott (00:06:20):
I, I look, I, I physical media, whatever, but I mean, if you want to be mobile in any way, not having to have carry books, not having to carry CDs, not having to carry

Leo Laporte (00:06:30):
Whatever books. I mean, albums, imagine I have friends who have walls of albums. There is nothing heavier. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:06:37):
Oh those will make beautiful kindling for the fire. But in the, you know,

Leo Laporte (00:06:40):
Melt the vinyl. I like

Paul Thurrott (00:06:42):
To listen to music on a plane, you know? Yeah, exactly. Or in a different location.

Leo Laporte (00:06:45):
When somebody's saying in the chat room, PHY you know, Virgil saying physical, physical books work when there's no power mm-hmm <affirmative> right. Where would that be?

Paul Thurrott (00:06:54):
I mean if, if your power has been out for so long, you can't read books on a device, you've got way bigger problems than content,

Mary Jo Foley (00:07:02):
You know?

Paul Thurrott (00:07:05):
But no, but fair enough. IM sure.

Leo Laporte (00:07:06):
Well, yeah, yeah. There are places you can't play Xbox in a submarine it's you know, but you just have to get used to that. Hey, speaking of Xbox, the guy who created the connect.

Paul Thurrott (00:07:18):

Leo Laporte (00:07:18):
The guy who was kind of the tip of the spear on hollow lens

Paul Thurrott (00:07:24):
On, hold on a second. Hold on. I'm sorry to interrupt. But I, I think it's very important that we recognize his greatest achievement of all time, which of course was the windows Vista ultimate extras. But please continue.

Leo Laporte (00:07:35):
<Laugh> was that his first outing at the micro he's been there? How long, how long was

Paul Thurrott (00:07:39):
His first public? 21

Leo Laporte (00:07:40):
Years. Alex

Mary Jo Foley (00:07:41):

Leo Laporte (00:07:42):
Kipman is out and apparently out under a cloud.

Paul Thurrott (00:07:47):
That's right. Yes.

Leo Laporte (00:07:49):
Tell us what happened

Mary Jo Foley (00:07:52):
Where to begin, where to begin. There's so many factors and we don't have all the pieces either. Right? So

Leo Laporte (00:07:58):
Some of it you could say are, well, this is part of the dismantling of HoloLens.

Mary Jo Foley (00:08:03):
Right? you could say that, but I'm not entirely sure that's correct. So Kipman has been heading up the whole lens since it was first introduced. And before that as well, 2015, that was the first time Paul and I were at the event where they showed off the ho

Leo Laporte (00:08:18):
Lens and for benefit of people like me, who aren't, you know, following this closely, he's the longhaired guy who had the Rav at the end of build. Yes. Was it last year?

Mary Jo Foley (00:08:26):

Leo Laporte (00:08:27):
Yes. Okay. He 

Mary Jo Foley (00:08:29):
Dancing around the campfire.

Leo Laporte (00:08:30):
Yeah. He took us.

Paul Thurrott (00:08:31):
Wasn't always long here. You know, like, like a lot of people at Microsoft, you, you get a little famous, you get a little money and then he turned into kind of a, like a hippie freak. I don't know what happened there <laugh> but yeah. And I was looking up Alex Kipman recently and you know, his earliest appearance is he was very clean cut. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:08:48):

Paul Thurrott (00:08:49):
Yeah. Now he looks like a homeless person, but I, I think that's a, an effect.

Leo Laporte (00:08:53):
I, I wasn't familiar with him before that HoloLens event and I thought, oh, oh, he's one of those artistic types. You know, he's an Adam Newman type. He's a, you know, he's a bit free thinker. He probably isn't wearing shoes and you know, he's yes.

Paul Thurrott (00:09:07):
Like that he makes his own yogurt. I think he could go on and on. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:09:10):
Mr. Kombucha. So, but that's not, so you, he didn't come from those.

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:16):
Well, he came from Brazil.

Leo Laporte (00:09:17):
He has an accent. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:19):
Yep. He's from Brazil. Not

Leo Laporte (00:09:20):
That, that means anything.

Paul Thurrott (00:09:21):
But I was gonna say, I mean, so he is exotic to us.

Leo Laporte (00:09:25):
Yes. To us. He's a strange bird. Yeah. Yeah. No,

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:28):
He, and you know, he, Microsoft has treated him as kind of a genius at the company. Right. That's right. Like Alex, Alex says this, Alex was doing this,

Leo Laporte (00:09:36):
What's his title. His title was like fellow,

Paul Thurrott (00:09:38):
I think he's a technical fellow. Isn't

Leo Laporte (00:09:39):
It? Yeah. Technical

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:40):
Fellow. He is now a technical fellow. He, I, I was looking back at my notes. He moved under Scott Guthrie and the cloud plus AI org back in 2018. Right. So he used to be in devices with windows. Then they moved him over to cloud. I feel like there was a lot of things they were trying to figure out where does he fit best?

Leo Laporte (00:09:59):

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:59):
Who can manage the guy, you know?

Leo Laporte (00:10:01):
Well, connect was a hit right

Paul Thurrott (00:10:04):
For a year.

Leo Laporte (00:10:05):
Well, and we should be, he

Paul Thurrott (00:10:08):
Had, it had a one year run where it was,

Leo Laporte (00:10:10):
It came from an Israeli company prime sense. Right. So it, it wasn't developed under Kipman. He just ran it once they bought it. Is that right? Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:19):
The connect stuff.

Leo Laporte (00:10:19):
Yeah. Probably the connect stuff, but yeah. And connect was the best selling consumer item of all time until it wasn't

Paul Thurrott (00:10:26):
For one year. Yeah. <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:10:28):
Yeah. And then suddenly it was like,

Paul Thurrott (00:10:30):
It became a boat anchor. Remember that one of the many things that sunk Xbox won is that Microsoft required you to get a connect a hundred bucks

Leo Laporte (00:10:37):
With it.

Paul Thurrott (00:10:37):
Right. Yeah. And as soon as they stopped doing that, it sold better and developers stopped supporting connect immediately,

Leo Laporte (00:10:43):
Which is sad. Cuz I loved the connect, but okay, fine. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:10:46):
Well, you know yeah. For all the same reasons, one might like a Nintendo we or whatever it was. Yeah. There was some fun, there was some

Leo Laporte (00:10:51):
Fun stuff you could exercise in front of me. This was very early on. Yeah. And it would know your heart rate and it could say, you know, work harder or you know, you're trying too hard and, or in my case get up and yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:11:05):
It, we can't tell you from the couch, are you in the room?

Leo Laporte (00:11:08):
Yeah, it was cool. Cuz you'd walk in and it would have a ghostlike image of your whole room and it would see you and it would recognize, it would say hi Leo. And when

Paul Thurrott (00:11:16):
Yeah, you factored into one of the what do you call those? God, those horror movie. It was a horror movie where the Xbox scanning the room was part of the plot. Oh, how fun? I can't think of the name of him. Sorry. Anyway, it was, it had a little Camon in horror, in a horror Mo big horror movie.

Leo Laporte (00:11:33):
That's it's cool. Yeah. So there's lots to, you know, lots to say about it.

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:38):
Yeah. Yeah. And then you know, he, he really became the face of the HoloLens. He was he's considered the father of the HoloLens. Right. So right. All the time when Microsoft was showing long term vision kinds of things, like here's how hollow rotation's gonna work, all these like crazy futuristic visions. The picture, the banner on top of our notion today is him in underwater, in a virtual space. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:12:03):
That was

Paul Thurrott (00:12:04):
Like Thelen business itself underwater pretty

Leo Laporte (00:12:07):
Much with way

Paul Thurrott (00:12:08):
I'm gonna keep using that joke until

Leo Laporte (00:12:09):
It was like, you were an aquarium.

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:11):
Right. Right. And you know, the original vision for HoloLens was it was gonna be both a consumer and a business play and Kipman was most excited about the consumer part. Obviously like that's where he thought it really was gonna have a few chances.

Paul Thurrott (00:12:24):
They very clear actually that's it

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:26):

Leo Laporte (00:12:26):
That was Microsoft mesh. He was showing. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:29):
Yeah. Last year he shut off mesh, which is the, the platform for, for working together in these collaborative spaces that are in a virtual world.

Paul Thurrott (00:12:38):
Right. I think from the, from the very beginning in that 2015 event, we keep referencing. Yeah. Microsoft really didn't know what to do with Tolen. They just knew they had to get it out into the world. And, and some of the first demonstrations that we did were entertainment based, there was that Minecraft experience remember. Right. That was cool. It was the, the video game thing on the wall where they would, the creatures would burst through the wall mm-hmm <affirmative> and then they had the kind of productivity thing. Like you you're fixing an electrical wire in a, in a wall and you've got a, a Skype screen at the time of an actual electrician telling you not to kill yourself, please <laugh> whatever. You know, which these were all just kind of ideas. Like here are some of the things we think this might be good at. And it didn't take long for the gaming stuff to go by the wayside, be the focus. Great. Didn't yeah. It just, it, it happened pretty quick.

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:29):
No, it was too expensive. A device for the consumer market. It was definitely too bulky and big, right. It wasn't like a consumer headset. And they, but they realized like, oh, maybe there is a business opportunity here. And so let's use it for things like dynamics. Right. And let's use it for things that are more business oriented. And that's where it ended up being positioned along with the military market 

Leo Laporte (00:13:54):
Along with the military, which, which has been kind of a mixed bag, right. It has the army right. Army

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:59):
Deal contract. Yeah. The army I a I've asked contract, which is headsets based on HoloLens technology. Yeah. 22 billion deal over 10 years, it's been very Rocky and army supposedly.

Paul Thurrott (00:14:12):
And by the way,

Leo Laporte (00:14:13):
Here's Alex talking to people without legs, by the way, this is the,

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:16):
That was the mesh. I wanna

Paul Thurrott (00:14:17):
See him legless,

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:21):
Extra teams. So extra teams,

Paul Thurrott (00:14:22):
This type of thing though, this is that Leo's showing now. And the earlier things as well is also one of the big, the central issues with HoloLens, because the way they have to demonstrate this in 2d, they make it look like this is far more immersive than it really is. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>

Leo Laporte (00:14:39):
You complain about that

Paul Thurrott (00:14:41):

Leo Laporte (00:14:41):

Paul Thurrott (00:14:42):
We did. Well, yeah. It's just the field of view issue. Right. Which by the way, did get better in V2 for sure. But a little, you know, you're when you're presenting ho hollow grams all over the space, you can see, it makes it seem like you see holograms everywhere in the world and you don't, you, you see them in this

Leo Laporte (00:14:59):

Paul Thurrott (00:14:59):
Slot, very con you know, specific, right. A mail slot. Again, it got, it did get better and it probably would've kept getting better over time. I'm sure it, maybe whatever they did with it, it will get better. But unfortunately I'm, I'm sure they struggled with, how do we convey what this is? Like, unfortunately, what they landed on was a lie, because this is not what it's like, that's not what it looks like. It just isn't, you know?

Mary Jo Foley (00:15:23):

Paul Thurrott (00:15:23):
Yeah. That's not his fault, I guess. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I don't know you'd blame there, but

Leo Laporte (00:15:27):
No. And then alt space was the burning man thing, right? Front

Mary Jo Foley (00:15:32):
Pit. Yeah. Yep. <Laugh> so when they first announced this teams for mesh and, and mesh vision, really the only place that works is alt space. Like the, the vision was to make it work in a larger context, but it really right now is very kind of connected to and stuck with Altspace.

Leo Laporte (00:15:51):

Mary Jo Foley (00:15:52):
So yeah, everybody was like, okay, that's that's like a good first take, but like, is it gonna work with HoloLens? Is it gonna work with other headsets? Is it going to work on my phone? And Microsoft said yes to all of this, but it never showed it actually working with those things. Right. <laugh> so

Paul Thurrott (00:16:08):
Yeah, you can, this is such a huge topic. I mean, there's all, you know, HoloLens is AR augmented reality. There's also a windows mixed reality platform, which is Mr. Or a VR, like virtual reality, right? These are two completely different technologies. I, I obviously there's some overlap, but they're very different presentation wise. This was the ability to see the real world.

Leo Laporte (00:16:31):
This was the 2017 ignite presentation. That to me made me actually think, oh, this guy's kind of <laugh> alternate alt, an alt kind of person right there. He is as black converse sneakers talking to a frog mm-hmm <affirmative> there's oh, and this is where of this CIR du sole. And they go into the burning man. And

Paul Thurrott (00:16:55):
Yeah. So the, the problem here is anything AR or VR related. If you want it to be fun and exciting for people, you have to show consumer stuff. Right. Because,

Leo Laporte (00:17:07):
But that's not the real market.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:09):
Are we gonna have a work? What is this? Is this like a work meeting in mortar? I'm looking at what is, what, yeah. What's this environment. Yeah. You know, we're here at the pit of fire where the one ring was destroyed and, you know, I just don't, it doesn't make a lot of sense

Leo Laporte (00:17:21):
Engineers using it to design products. I mean, there's a lot of se sensible uses. Yes. The problem is they're not that's right. Like that's right. They're not, Ooh,

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:30):
No, they don't demo.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:31):
And why would it like, right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:33):

Leo Laporte (00:17:33):

Paul Thurrott (00:17:34):
One of the best, one of the best demos they gave, not because it was visually compelling, but because you could see that it would make sense was you given a haul lens headset to an engineer, designing a vehicle, instead of having to come up with a 2000 pound lump of clay and shave it off until it starts looking like a car, and then you run your test on and see if it's aerodynamic or whatever. Yeah. You can design this thing in, in AR and then you can give less expensive Mr. Like mixed windows, mixed reality headsets to other people on the team. And they can walk around this thing and look at it from different angles and give you feedback and point out things that should be changed or whatever. So you had that kind of creator, viewer dichotomy that, you know, I, I think makes sense. In some cases like, you know, automobile design is one of them, you know, I don't know how many of the

Mary Jo Foley (00:18:22):
Right healthcare

Paul Thurrott (00:18:22):
And you say something like that, you're like,

Mary Jo Foley (00:18:24):

Leo Laporte (00:18:25):
Yeah. Those make sense. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:27):
Oh boy. Do you want someone with a head? What's he wearing? What are you doing as you're going under you? Are you gonna look at me or are you gonna put a headset up? What are you doing? <Laugh> you

Mary Jo Foley (00:18:35):
Know, no, they do. They show a lot of medical things like instructing students on a procedure, that kind of stuff. Yeah. Or, you

Leo Laporte (00:18:41):
Know, telemedicine and yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:43):
Okay. There you

Leo Laporte (00:18:43):
Go. Those all make sense. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:18:45):
Right. So, you know, like I think HoloLens gave them something to, that was really fun to demo. Really cool. It made them look cutting edge innovative. Right. And then right. The, the reality comes into play and they're like, okay, but how do you make money on this? Like, you're selling these for $3,000 a piece, like how many are you gonna sell? Right. they're not

Paul Thurrott (00:19:05):
Cheap. Well, by the way, the other thing that, the other thing that happened that we shouldn't forget is apple started working on what will eventually be their own headset, but they introduced AR kit for iPhones and iPads. And I've done some of those AR experiences just on an iPad. And when, once you do that, you're like, yeah, yeah. Actually this makes a lot more sense. It's usable right now. It's super affordable. Anyone can do it. I think I used the example of, I, I think, I don't remember if it was the museum or natural history in New York or somewhere, but I went to, I don't know why I can't remember the museum, but I went to a museum where you could look at a dinosaur skeleton cuz it was there and then you could bring up your phone and they would show you what it looked like with skin and whatever. And so you could kind of see you this a little AR thing. You're like, that's amazing. I'm not gonna bring a $3,000 HoloLens <laugh> to a museum, you know? Yeah. But I would bring my phone, you know? Right. I, I always thought that was great

Leo Laporte (00:20:02):
Here. This is from 2021. <Laugh> they're going in this space. This is ludicrous. Yeah. And then they're gonna go dance with the 

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:15):
Neighbor, in spite of all of this that we've talked about so far, this isn't the main reason that we think Alex Kitman is leaving.

Paul Thurrott (00:20:22):
Yeah. You don't think this is the

Leo Laporte (00:20:23):
Main reason. Yeah. I have to say,

Paul Thurrott (00:20:25):
Cause honestly looking at this now I feel like this should be the main reason

Leo Laporte (00:20:27):
This is might have been when people started question marks maybe. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:31):
Agree, agree. Right. Because

Leo Laporte (00:20:33):
It looks like I'm honest, it looks like he's tripping balls.

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:36):

Leo Laporte (00:20:37):
Like what you know

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:39):

Leo Laporte (00:20:39):
What is happening. What's happening. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:41):
Yeah. Yeah. So, oh boy. Earlier this year business insider had a story where, where they had allegations of him acting inappropriately with his team, especially with women on the team. And once that happened, plus it was

Leo Laporte (00:20:58):
Quiet, terrible dancing, all,

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:59):
Yeah. All quiet <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:21:00):
And this is a problem. Microsoft has had fur with others. I mean, this is, this is didn't SA Nadella say, we're, we're gonna stop this.

Mary Jo Foley (00:21:09):
He did say that.

Paul Thurrott (00:21:10):
Yeah. Yeah. And he is done nothing. Yeah. That's been well

Mary Jo Foley (00:21:13):
Like started

Leo Laporte (00:21:13):
With bill gates and 

Mary Jo Foley (00:21:15):
Yeah, he's tried to clean up in places. But you know, people, these days are just not as tolerant as they used to be. And they're like, well, that's the way workplaces are. No, that's not the way workplaces should be. Right. And, and I think he's done some things that were good to get Microsoft on the path of cleaning up this kind of culture, but it's not going as quickly as people wanted it to go. 

Leo Laporte (00:21:37):
You have to wonder, I mean, as Saja Nadela has gotta be standing there. This is a corporate event. Yeah. Microsoft ignite. I know and thinking,

Mary Jo Foley (00:21:50):
What are we doing now? What's happened.

Paul Thurrott (00:21:53):
Yeah. I think it's, it's, it's something that might have gotten the attention of the mainstream press because it's yeah. Futuristic and not boring, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> which Microsoft, you know, you're not gonna see the latest Azure services on the evening news when build comes around

Leo Laporte (00:22:08):
Or yeah, no, we paid attention to it. That's true. Yeah. That's what I remember.

Mary Jo Foley (00:22:13):

Leo Laporte (00:22:14):
It's the last 10 minutes of that presentation.

Mary Jo Foley (00:22:16):
Yep. So yeah, as of this week, Scott Guthrie put out a memo and said, so Alex and I have been talking and he's going his way and we're going ours and that's it. And we're gonna split his team in half. And the hardware team is going to Panos under windows and devices. And the software team is going under experiences and devices, Jeff Teer, which is where that mesh for team stuff happens. And there you go. That's what we're doing with HoloLens. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:22:43):
Also, I mean, related to this too, it was only a few months ago, maybe February. I don't remember the timing where there were news reports that most of the HoloLens team had left, you know, and gone to MEA or whatever. And Alex Kimon at that time came out and had kind of said something to the effect of this is not true. Yeah. You know, without many details to the country. Right. But very, you know, very clearly I think things have been falling apart. There there's the bad news with the army contract they have where yeah. They expect a lot of negative feedback from that, that it's probably not gonna meet the Army's needs, frankly. Right. I think this is a lot going wrong there.

Leo Laporte (00:23:16):
So to be clear, Microsoft did not say there was inappropriate behavior.

Mary Jo Foley (00:23:21):
They have not said that

Leo Laporte (00:23:22):
Publicly. Well, that's been speculation. Right. And I have to say from, you know, some knowledge of employment law you generally don't say that out loud. Right?

Mary Jo Foley (00:23:33):
You do not. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:23:34):
<Laugh> it's unproven allegation. I mean, you might decide to terminate somebody, but you're not gonna say why. You're

Mary Jo Foley (00:23:41):
Not gonna say because of complaints of sexual harassment. You're not gonna say that public. Well,

Paul Thurrott (00:23:45):
Of course. And in, in, in the rich history of this kind of thing, and Microsoft certainly has a lot of experience. Unfortunately, you go to that person and say, look you're leaving one way or the other we'll let you leave. It would be better for everyone if you just left of your own free will. And we'll position it like that. But if you don't, you need to understand <laugh>. Yeah. It's, it's, we're gonna have to come out and explain what happened. Right. And

Leo Laporte (00:24:07):
That's exact, I think nailed it. That's exact cause, cause you know, it has, if you pay the guy for instance you know, I mean, I'm just thinking what happened at Google. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> when they paid what's his name? The founder of Android. 95 million to get out, right?

Mary Jo Foley (00:24:26):

Leo Laporte (00:24:26):
Yep. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:24:28):
So no, that, that, that's amazing. Even imagine the outcry, if that happened. Yeah. You know <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:24:33):
Yeah, yeah. But a publicly held company you've gotta disclose. Right. So it's hard to hide that stuff. Yeah. It's probably the, you know, that's exactly go, Scott, go called him in and said you got two choices here. Yep. But we don't know.

Paul Thurrott (00:24:48):
Well, Mary Jo has a theory about this report. I don't know if you wanted to talk about that. Yeah. But you know, when this thing came out in the business insider, it's like, well, how, how did this come about? Do you

Mary Jo Foley (00:24:57):
Think they leaked it? Well, okay. So as a journalist who's, who's worked in this field for a long time. You know, everybody gets scoops different ways, right? Sometimes you actually stumble onto a real scoop. Sometimes companies give you something and they wanna pretend that you got it. Sometimes companies give you something and say, we want you to put this out there because we want, we have an agenda and we want you to help us further the agenda. And it a like that

Leo Laporte (00:25:20):
A lot.

Mary Jo Foley (00:25:21):
Me too. Yeah, same. So I don't know if any of those things happen and I'm not trying to pour cold water on business insiders reporting at all because what they got was amazing. But right. You gotta wonder about the timing, right? The army deal starts falling apart. And then suddenly there are these allegations being brought to brought to the public eye and the next thing you know, it gets quiet and then El Pitman's leaving. Right. So you're like, oh, I wonder how that happened in that sequence. Right. <laugh> anyway. Right. Just a theory, just a thought. Right. but you think amazing,

Leo Laporte (00:25:53):
Right? They, they planted a story with business insiders saying,

Mary Jo Foley (00:25:56):
I have no idea. We don't, I have no idea if that's the case, but, but

Leo Laporte (00:25:59):
So Elaine does happen

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:00):
And you could, it happens. Yeah. It's happened to me. It happens. It's happened to every reporter, right? Like sometimes

Paul Thurrott (00:26:05):
You've literally been a group of employees at Microsoft who were tired that

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:09):

Paul Thurrott (00:26:09):
That out. We've done anything about this guy's activities that said let's we just won't know collectively the two or three of us go to a reporter and let's get it out there public. So we can point to that thing and say, see, we told you to do something about this two years ago now what are gonna

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:22):
Do didn't yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:26:23):
Right. And they forced their hand.

Leo Laporte (00:26:24):
I think that might be the case because this accusation of him watching a VR porn, pillow fight and a meeting. Yeah. That sounds like the kind of thing. Certainly Microsoft wouldn't leak that.

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:37):
No, they would not.

Leo Laporte (00:26:37):
That sounds like the kind of thing a disgruntled employee might say, you know, you gotta understand

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:42):
This guy. Like I tried to get this out there and you guys wouldn't take it seriously. Right. So yeah. We don't know how it happened, but I think you, it's just good to keep in mind, like these things can happen that way. And that sometimes is how people force out someone or make something happen without it looking like, you know, Microsoft forced him out. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:27:02):
<Laugh> right,

Paul Thurrott (00:27:02):
Right. Yeah. It just seems to make sense.

Leo Laporte (00:27:04):
Politicians have done that for years. They call it trial bullets. For sure. They say, well, let's see if let's send this one up. See if people

Paul Thurrott (00:27:10):
Yeah. See if we can get a bite. Yeah. Agree.

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:12):
Agree. Yeah. Anyway, I think what's, what's more interesting to me than all of this background and, and what happened there is now what's gonna happen.

Leo Laporte (00:27:22):
That to me is more interesting too. What does this mean for HoloLens? They've split it up, right? That's right. Is it, what does that mean? It's two different divisions. I don't understand that at all. How do you run? Well, how do you run an innovative new product with two different groups?

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:36):
Yeah. So Panos has never been in charge of the HoloLens hardware, right? Like that, even though he's the hardware chief at Microsoft. Oh, that's interesting. He has never produced the HoloLens or built the HoloLens. Right. so, you know, I saw D bass who works at Bloomberg today saying, I wonder if this is the end of the HoloLens hardware, because oh, this panels gonna wanna do that. But here's my thought Panos wants to do everything Apple's doing. Right. Like that's pretty much where, where he goes. Right. <laugh> yep. So if Apple's building an AR headset pan, no Panos supposed to be thinking like, I guess we need one too. Yeah. Somehow. Right. <laugh> so I don't know if it's the end of the HoloLens or if it's the, and then there's been speculation by business insider again from some reporting they did where they said maybe the future of the HoloLens is just an industrial headset for business use only like the next version of hos

Paul Thurrott (00:28:30):
Vertical markets.

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:31):
Yeah. Yeah. This is

Paul Thurrott (00:28:32):
The place that's seen success.

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:35):

Paul Thurrott (00:28:36):

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:36):
I, I could see that happening too.

Paul Thurrott (00:28:39):
Yeah. But do or you could also see them turning into software platform, similar to windows mixed reality. Yeah. Where they license it's used to other hardware makers that want to create,

Leo Laporte (00:28:47):
There's a history of that vertical. That's how there's what windows is.

Paul Thurrott (00:28:50):
It's I just don't know. I don't know. I just don't see that being successful.

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:59):
Well, the part of the, part of the division that went to Jeff Teer is the mesh platform. Right? So the mesh platform is the hollow ation, underlying layer stuff, the SDK, the stuff with mesh for teams. But

Paul Thurrott (00:29:13):

Mary Jo Foley (00:29:13):
You see, you could turn that into a

Paul Thurrott (00:29:14):
Platform they're gonna bring they'll. Yeah. But they'll bring that. That's how they'll bring it to the Oculus or they'll bring, you know, bring mesh to Oculus or bring mesh to whatever apple does or,

Leo Laporte (00:29:25):
Or meta. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. By the way, apple did not say word one about AR VR zero. That's right.

Paul Thurrott (00:29:34):
That's right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:29:35):
Did anybody expect them to though? Were they waiting? I thought people were saying maybe not till it's more fully

Leo Laporte (00:29:41):
Based. Well, we didn't think they talk. They does show it.

Paul Thurrott (00:29:43):
Mary Jo. Yeah. Clearly you don't pay attention to apple rumors. So <laugh>, there was, I do not over the course of days, this thing went all the way up and all the way down and all, you know, it it's, there was some trademark thing or something as, oh, this is, that means they're gonna talk about it. There was like, oh, hold on. They're not ready.

Leo Laporte (00:30:00):
They have trademarked something called reality OS. And there was some timing, things that implied that maybe they were gonna announce it worldwide to yesterday. Or, and no, none, none of that Monday, I should say none of that. Yeah. None. They didn't say the word AR or VR at all. I

Paul Thurrott (00:30:18):
That's. Right. Not even. Right. So I think whatever they wanted to do is not ready. And I think they've

Leo Laporte (00:30:24):
Had to me too set it. The logic was, well, you got a bunch of developers here who are gonna have to develop stuff for this, this

Paul Thurrott (00:30:31):
Yeah. No, but that's not coming out this year. That's

Leo Laporte (00:30:33):
What it sounds like to me. Like it's not,

Paul Thurrott (00:30:35):
It can't be, it can't no, because people like, oh, they,

Mary Jo Foley (00:30:37):
They have an SDK. Like if you don't give them an SDK, what's the point of sh of even saying it to them. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:30:42):
No, you're right, right. So they didn't have it. Yep. They have other stuff they want 'em to do. And they aren't that close. Yeah. Right. So good news Panos. You got some time.

Mary Jo Foley (00:30:53):
Yeah. And, and they probably want meta to show more of their hand before they show theirs. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:30:59):

Paul Thurrott (00:30:59):
By the way, something else to pay attention to in all in this world. And we don't, I don't know enough about it to have a lengthy discussion is Tim Sweeney, the guy that runs epic games, mm-hmm <affirmative> who for much of his career has been a, a staunch anti Microsoft, anti windows store slash Microsoft store guy. Remember three years ago was on stage at the last haul lens event and fully supporting Microsoft. He has supported or Microsoft and him have supported each other in this battle that epic has against apple and Google. He had an interview recently where he was talking about stores and the metaverse and, and what the future looks like. And honestly, it's surprisingly, I guess he is backing Facebook. He thinks meta, he thinks Meta's play in VR is an AR whatever is the, is the platform to follow, like is the thing to pay attention to. And and again, I don't know a lot about that. I don't, I'm not sure I know any more than what I just said, but it's interesting because of who he is. <Laugh> and yeah. How he has aligned himself against these massive big tap companies.

Mary Jo Foley (00:32:03):
But he hates apple. Right? Doesn't he?

Paul Thurrott (00:32:05):
Well, yeah, of

Leo Laporte (00:32:06):
Course. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (00:32:07):
Yeah. Right. So that's why he's backing meta, right? Because he can't back. Microsoft, Microsoft doesn't have something in the consumer gaming space.

Leo Laporte (00:32:14):
What about activation? What about doing something with Activision who, Microsoft,

Paul Thurrott (00:32:20):
Who, oh, Microsoft they're

Leo Laporte (00:32:21):
Buying active. They might, they got a lot of gaming content. Playstation has announced they're gonna do PlayStation VR for PS

Paul Thurrott (00:32:29):
Five act. Division's gonna fly through, you know, as, as fast as these things can fly. If they ever came up and said, now we're gonna partner with yay. I think the, the world. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Hold on a second.

Mary Jo Foley (00:32:40):
<Laugh> yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:41):
Not so quick. They're a big

Leo Laporte (00:32:42):
Guy. I don't know. It's this is sputtering along. This is not exactly taken the world by storm. Nope. We'll see. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:51):
No. And this is that next wave thing. Remember, you know, Terry Myerson comes in, they, they lost in smartphones. Well, what's the next wave. Maybe it's ambient computing, Cortana, voice commands, digital assistance. It is. But not for us. Maybe it's Solens mixed reality. Maybe, you know, I don't, I don't. What is apple seems to be betting that well, apple bet on apple watch that didn't work out as the next wave. So maybe AR is the next wave for app. They seem to think it might be still cars kind of come and gone and maybe come back a little bit. You know? I don't know. I don't know.

Mary Jo Foley (00:33:27):
Yeah. I don't know. I think, I think the thing to always remember, and I know everyone's gonna, boom me, Microsoft's an enterprise company. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:33:34):
Yeah, no,

Mary Jo Foley (00:33:35):
You're right, right. I mean like that's what they care about. That's where their successes are. I know they wanna break into consumer in a bigger way, but like they're the reason they broke the co broke the whole ends up. The way they did is they they're like, how can we maximize this for the enters enterprises? Right. That's they weren't

Paul Thurrott (00:33:51):
Thinking. And the thing I said about mesh and rival platforms, you know, Microsoft will do in AR what they did in smartphones, which is mm-hmm, <affirmative> just put their stuff on any platform that makes sense. Yeah. And you know, that's just pragmatic. That's the Microsoft way. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:07):
But yeah. Even when they talked about mesh, remember when, when they talked about mesh, they were like, yeah, we're gonna support other third party headsets. Like they, they were very much like, this is gonna be a third party play. Not just us. Right. Not just us. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:34:20):
They didn say that ecosystem. Yeah, they did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:34:24):
I was actually asleep during most of that. So I, I don't remember that, but I was,

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:27):
What about the campfire

Leo Laporte (00:34:28):
Involved? I didn't, I don't remember any of it. So

Paul Thurrott (00:34:32):
I was probably playing a call of duty game during the camp fire

Leo Laporte (00:34:34):
Sequence. This is what I would, how I would read the tea leaves. So maybe you had to get rid of Kitman, but if you still were all in on HoloLens, you don't split the division. So no, you

Paul Thurrott (00:34:44):
Don't even, I don't think they, you replace it. I don't think they have anyone left. I replace it.

Leo Laporte (00:34:48):
I think all the, so I,

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:50):
No, not, not everybody left. There's still a lot of people working

Leo Laporte (00:34:53):
On. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of turnover in all of these speculative divisions, a card apple card thing is a revolving door, but sure. I just feel like this is my Microsoft's kind of saying, yeah, we had to get rid of commitment, but at the same time, we're not all in on this. Right. Am I right?

Mary Jo Foley (00:35:11):
Or, or we're all in, on it in a very much more constrained

Leo Laporte (00:35:15):
Way on a minor

Mary Jo Foley (00:35:15):
Way <laugh> industrial headsets. Right. Which is industrial headsets. I think the right thing, they can make a lot of money on that. They can make a lot of

Leo Laporte (00:35:22):
Money they're doing well on that.

Mary Jo Foley (00:35:23):
Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:35:25):
Of course. Even Google

Mary Jo Foley (00:35:26):
Blasts would panels wanna make, but would panels wanna make a headset for like, I don't know, like manufacturing companies, I don't know. Would he

Leo Laporte (00:35:34):
No, no. He wants to make a consumer thing. Right, right, right, right. Why would,

Paul Thurrott (00:35:38):
Would PS make a surface laptop go or a surface go or a surface se yeah, because that's, I think that's where his head's at. It's, you know, it's the apple thing, you know, it's we want to go where apple is

Leo Laporte (00:35:51):
Same. So silly you go to the green fields. You don't go to the well plowed territory. Sure. Yeah. All right. Let me take a break. We have still many, many more things to discuss, but the Kip story is probably the big story of the the week. Yeah, yeah. I

Paul Thurrott (00:36:08):
Would say so. Yep. Yep.

Leo Laporte (00:36:09):
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And it actually helps both team members and the C-suite. And then you've got continuous purple teaming assessment begin purple teaming or power up your current strategies with runbooks the best in industry tool for test plan execution. This is a really great platform. Plex track improves the entire security engagement life cycle by making it easy to generate security reports Del you know, not a lot of time type in away. It delivers them securely tracks the issues to completion straight from the platform. So security teams of all sizes and maturities can maximize efficiency and effectiveness. You gotta get a demo of this today. Learn more about the product and how it can support proactive security work in your organization. Try it free for a month. Plex track. See how it can change your life as a security professional, go to Plex claim that free month P L E X T R a w I T. I think you know that, please use that by the way. So they know you saw it with Paul, Mary Joe, and they get credit Plex, Thank you. Plex track for supporting Paul and Mary Jo and the work they're doing on windows weekly, Plex supporting the work you're doing to keep your company safe. But boom, Microsoft's leaving Russia. IBM first. IBM now Microsoft mm-hmm <affirmative> I I guess that inevitable. Yeah, we finally really come on timely, timely. Oh, wow. Not finally. Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (00:40:35):
Yeah, yeah. But you know, what's kind of weird about this. So they already said they were going to cease new sales in Russia. They said that a few months ago. Yep. But I've seen people saying this means 400 people are being cut and Microsoft's gonna close its Russian operations. When I asked them, are you actually letting go 400 people? They wouldn't say that <laugh> huh? They just said, we're significantly scaling down our operations in Russia. I said, so are people getting, let go? And they wouldn't say, I said, or are you reassigning them somewhere to other offices in Europe or elsewhere? And they wouldn't say so I'm like, what are they doing? <Laugh> right.

Leo Laporte (00:41:12):
They may not be able to get 'em out of there to be honest. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:15):
Yeah. Maybe

Leo Laporte (00:41:16):
They may not wanna say, but they may just those people their own.

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:21):
Right. I know. And also they're still gonna keep supporting existing businesses in Russia like customers, you know, so

Leo Laporte (00:41:29):
How they're gonna do that long distance or

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:31):
Exactly. I asked they wouldn't say so.

Leo Laporte (00:41:34):
Okay, interesting.

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:34):
Huh? <laugh> huh? Yeah. I'm like, okay. So yeah. I don't know how much of this is just them. Like we have to say this because people are pressuring us and they want us to get outta Russia. Or if there is substance to it, the fact they won't give any details is a little weird to me. But yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:41:52):

Paul Thurrott (00:41:53):

Leo Laporte (00:41:54):
Amazon's unionizing Starbucks, unionizing. Google's unionizing everybody's unionizing. I thought this was really interest

Paul Thurrott (00:42:02):

Leo Laporte (00:42:02):
Yeah. Right. I thought this was really interesting. Microsoft says we welcome it.

Mary Jo Foley (00:42:09):

Paul Thurrott (00:42:09):
Of, what else are I gonna say? You know, <laugh> I mean, exactly. Amazon.

Leo Laporte (00:42:13):
No, you could do what apple and Amazon did, which is hire an anti unionized firm. Yep. Practically bringing the Pinkertons.

Paul Thurrott (00:42:19):
Well, you don't know, Mike, maybe Microsoft has,

Leo Laporte (00:42:21):
Maybe they're doing that too.

Paul Thurrott (00:42:22):
I mean, this is,

Leo Laporte (00:42:23):
I read this and I thought this is great. I thought it was really supportive, but maybe

Paul Thurrott (00:42:28):
That what this is is Microsoft had come out because they, they really want to acquire Activision blizzard and they, the, that publisher voted to form a union and the, the employees did. Yeah. And they said, oh yeah, no, of course. Of course, of course we support that. You know, it's fine. Come on in. Yeah. And I think what happened at Microsoft was employees seeing that said, okay, well <laugh>, I mean, you can't just let them have a union. What about us? Yeah. I, I think people like, I don't, I'm not the, the problem with this kind of thing I think is gonna be that Microsoft in this case will just talk about Microsoft. We'll change their policies for rewarding employees, giving them raises, giving them promotions in the wake of unionization because they have a union. Now <laugh> like, in other words, like, yeah, this may be one of those things where depending on who you are and what type of job you have, you may find that your futures a lot more limited than it was before this happened. You know? And that's the way that passive aggressively a company can get back at employees who formed a union, you know, and you can kinda picture that happening. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so I don't know. It's like we believe the importance of listening to concerns like yeah. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:43:41):
<Laugh> yeah. You know,

Mary Jo Foley (00:43:42):
Also remember who, who authored this blog post the head corporate lawyer at Microsoft. So, you know, like that's right. It it's, there's a lot of like little leeways here and there. Microsoft does, Microsoft would prefer not for people unionized, but they have to say we'll support them if they do, but we wanna make sure they don't by keeping them happy. Right. That's that's kind

Paul Thurrott (00:44:02):
Of right. That's right. Where

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:03):

Leo Laporte (00:44:04):
Going. And all companies say that. I mean,

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:06):
I know, right. That's that's what I mean. Well,

Paul Thurrott (00:44:08):
But that's, I didn't feel,

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:09):
But that's how I didn't like organization

Paul Thurrott (00:44:10):
Efforts are pushed down. Yeah. Right. You, you, you, the company will come out and say, okay, you, you can do this, but if you don't, yeah. Here's what we'll do for you. And then, and some employees will vote and they'll say actually, you know, yeah. We'll see, we'll see what happens. I

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:27):
Mean, we will. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:44:28):
If they're not going out and hiring a law firm, any unionization law firm, that's a, that's a good start. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:35):

Paul Thurrott (00:44:37):
I, you can unionize. We're just saying $17. We

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:40):
Don't think you should be the best pay for

Leo Laporte (00:44:42):
Going forward in all companies. I mean, our company would say that, you know, we don't, we would prefer it in unionize, cuz it's easier to negotiate with you individually. And, and, and but if, if you feel like that's necessary, you know, that's great. We care about our employees. Right. And we're not gonna fight you. I guess that's the thing is are we gonna, are they gonna fight the union?

Paul Thurrott (00:45:02):
Yeah. Right. What's the environment you want to create. Right. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> although it must be a little alarming to the executives at Microsoft or any company to find that your employees are rallying to unionize. Because it just feels like such a

Leo Laporte (00:45:16):
Conservative, it's a vote. No confidence. It's like saying you're not taking care of us. Exactly. So we are gonna have to that's. Right. Because I think even, you know, all things being equal, if, and if employees could get what they want out of the company without unionizing, they'd prefer not to pay union dues. They'd prefer not to have to go through union.

Paul Thurrott (00:45:31):
Well, there were employees who wanted this Alice Kitman problem to be solved <laugh> and that never

Leo Laporte (00:45:35):

Paul Thurrott (00:45:36):
Right. And years went by. No, you know, that's right. I'm sure there was some frustration there. Right?

Leo Laporte (00:45:41):
Yeah. So that's

Paul Thurrott (00:45:41):
Really, who knows how many other things like that are going

Leo Laporte (00:45:43):
On? Yeah. Yeah. We don't know. Yeah. Inside nose

Mary Jo Foley (00:45:47):
In the old days, not so old days, many Microsoft remember that guy, like he would, he would publicize employee gripes about a lot of things and that's the way they pressured leadership to deal with them. They have employees riled up he's taking a low level approach. And hasn't said anything in a long time. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:46:07):
I think one day a red light show through the window from a

Leo Laporte (00:46:10):

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:10):

Leo Laporte (00:46:11):
Right. In his

Paul Thurrott (00:46:12):
Mini Microsoft was no more.

Leo Laporte (00:46:13):

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:14):
I think he feels like he isn't needed the way he was under the bomber and gates regimes perhaps. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:46:22):
Interesting. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:24):

Paul Thurrott (00:46:26):
Keeping bakes to differ, sir.

Leo Laporte (00:46:27):

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:28):

Leo Laporte (00:46:29):
Let's talk now that I'm a proud windows. 11 user. Yeah. Yeah, I did not. You told me that I could and maybe should go to 22 H two, but I just mm-hmm <affirmative> thought I'm gonna live with what I got. Yeah. I'm not a seeker man.

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:46):
<Laugh> <laugh> yes. I think you were being wise myself. I mean, nothing but nothing.

Leo Laporte (00:46:52):
Nothing. Well it's like, I'm, you know, also, as I said, last week, I want, I want to be a man of the people. I wanna experience what a normal person's experiencing.

Mary Jo Foley (00:47:01):

Leo Laporte (00:47:02):
My, and we know that team user. Yeah. We've got Paul to experience, you know what the seekers experience. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:47:09):

Leo Laporte (00:47:09):
And good. Thank you, Paul, for doing that hard work. Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (00:47:13):
Exactly. Okay. Yeah. But if, if you do wanna seek, if you do wanna seek now windows 1122 H two is in the release preview channel. So that means, you know, this is the final bill we already kind of knew it was 2 26, 21 is the RTM. Right. it's in release preview. They're trying to get cus corporate customers to test it now and put it on commercial devices and make sure everything works. There's no incompatibility. And if you are a regular windows insider and you're on release preview also can get it now and check it out if you want to.

Leo Laporte (00:47:51):
So there's dev channel there's beta channel there's release preview. Yes. It's funny that Microsoft, after all the warning says recommended beta channel maybe I should do release preview is what you're saying. Well,

Paul Thurrott (00:48:04):
Yeah. So just to be clear about what we're looking at here, when you think about dev channel yeah. Dev channel in some ways should be called experimental channel. It's not tied, tied to any version

Leo Laporte (00:48:14):
Of windows it's. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:48:15):
And it's also a one way street for the most part. Every once in a while, they'll open a little window where you can switch back to beta, but you're you go down the dev channel route you're stuck in there. The only way you can get out of that is to pave the thing from space and, and just do a clean

Leo Laporte (00:48:27):
Install. It says there will be some rough edges and low stability. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> yeah. You're on the moon. Do

Paul Thurrott (00:48:33):
Data channel. <Laugh> the beta channel and the release preview channel today both offer the same thing because they've, you know, the release channel reach preview has now gone to 22 H two. So you can get into that. You can click that setting. I talked about where, when the, this thing is released, you are out of the insider program, right? So you go from whatever channel you're in back to stable, which is honestly a, a nice thing. That's something you used to have to manually manage yourself. And I, you know, I think it was last week. I I, or two weeks ago, maybe I talked about the different ways you could get onto 28, 22 H two today. So this is one of the ways it doesn't really change anything. You can get into the release preview channel instead of beta's same, same thing today.

Leo Laporte (00:49:18):
How do I get out of it? I accidentally did it so

Paul Thurrott (00:49:22):
You can't get outta, so you have to

Leo Laporte (00:49:23):
Restart. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:49:24):
That's okay.

Leo Laporte (00:49:25):
Just restart. Okay. And then when I restart, it'll gimme a chance to say, I don't want, I don't. I mean, I don't wanna

Mary Jo Foley (00:49:31):
Actually, oh, an accident <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:49:32):
Maybe I'll leave it on release preview.

Mary Jo Foley (00:49:35):

Paul Thurrott (00:49:35):
I actually let

Mary Jo Foley (00:49:36):
You just, I feel like that's

Paul Thurrott (00:49:38):
See the, yeah. You can see the option. I was

Leo Laporte (00:49:40):
Talking restarting at least. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Takes a little while. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:49:46):
So when this thing comes back, just, you know, run settings again.

Leo Laporte (00:49:49):

Paul Thurrott (00:49:50):
Go to windows. Update, go to windows inside a program,

Leo Laporte (00:49:53):
By the way, this has a windows. Hello camera. But it also has a fingerprint, which is nice. So if I've got a microphone in front of my face or whatever, and the hello doesn't work, the camera doesn't work. I can just use the fingerprint, which is nice. And it does it's. I like that feature too. Yeah. I, I feel like fingerprints. Maybe. Do you think fingerprints a little more secure than a face?

Paul Thurrott (00:50:16):
It's more purposeful. I think I, I choose fingerprint over face because I want to explicitly sign in. Yeah. I don't want it signed in cuz I'm nearby. And then maybe it's got me on like a, a wide angle view something and alright, so go down to windows. Since here you go. Now

Leo Laporte (00:50:32):
A newer build is available. Okay. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:50:34):
Don't do that. <Laugh> yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:50:35):
So now I can choose settings here.

Paul Thurrott (00:50:38):
No, go. The bottom thing is says, stop,

Leo Laporte (00:50:40):
Stop. Getting previewed builds. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:50:42):
So what you can do here is you can,

Leo Laporte (00:50:46):
So after I got 22 H two, for instance, I might want to go in here and switch this off.

Paul Thurrott (00:50:50):
That's right? Yep. That's

Leo Laporte (00:50:52):
Right. Or unroll this unroll, this device immediately.

Paul Thurrott (00:50:55):

Leo Laporte (00:50:56):
That's a, that requires a clean install of the latest release of windows. I'm not gonna do that.

Paul Thurrott (00:51:02):
Yeah. You're you're 

Leo Laporte (00:51:04):
That's alright. I'm gonna stick with, I'm gonna stick with it. Let's do it. Let's

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:06):
At least preview is very strict of all the check. Yeah. But

Paul Thurrott (00:51:09):
Go back,

Leo Laporte (00:51:10):
Go back and go back. Okay, go back, go back, go back. Windows insider program, go back. Go

Paul Thurrott (00:51:14):
Stop. Go to the stop thing. Stop.

Leo Laporte (00:51:15):
Stop. Stop. Okay. Stop getting preview builds. Yeah. Yeah. And

Paul Thurrott (00:51:18):
That option says unenrolled. Yeah. Turn that on

Leo Laporte (00:51:21):
Right now.

Paul Thurrott (00:51:22):
Because this way, when 22 H two comes out, you'll pop right back

Leo Laporte (00:51:26):
Out the table. It'll be stable. That's you're brilliant. Good job. And I will get updates on 22 H two.

Paul Thurrott (00:51:33):
That's right. Yep. You'll just move forward normally

Leo Laporte (00:51:35):
Now. Okay. So let's do it. What could possibly go wrong? <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:51:39):
All kinds.

Leo Laporte (00:51:41):
Yeah. At least unlike in years earlier, I'm not recording on this machine

Paul Thurrott (00:51:46):
And next week we'll we'll do a little special on you know, data ReSTOR and whatnot. Be, it'll be fine.

Leo Laporte (00:51:50):
Putting, putting Linux on your brand new windows,

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:53):
Computer. Exactly.

Leo Laporte (00:51:54):
Okay, so it's downloading 22 H two. Yeah. How exciting took a little while. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. I can dig it.

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:03):
Yeah. So things to know about this release preview channel, like we said, that's the most stable of the, of the insider channel builds. Right there. Once the feature update comes out, we still think this is gonna happen in the fall. Even though this is already in the release preview channel, we think they're just gonna keep patching it, patching it, patching it till the fall, September, October, then the bill will come out once the day they say, it's ready and it's rolling out to mainstream. That's when the support clock starts ticking on the feature update. Right? So up until then, you, you don't have to worry about how long is it gonna be supported. But once the support clock starts ticking, I have to remind myself cuz they changed this. Let's see what are, they've got it now, home and pro 24 months of support for that version enterprise and education, 36 months of support.

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:58):
Right? The thing that makes us confusing to a lot of people, including me, is they also likely will continue to roll out features for windows 11, two mainstream users outside of this feature update. Even though they said there would only be one feature update a year and everybody did a little happy dance. They still went around that and found a way to keep rolling out features. And they're sometimes rolling 'em out in cumulative updates. There's no rhyme or reason that we can figure out as far as a schedule of that. So we don't know if there will be another feature update roll up before feature pack that's right before feature updates.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:36):
Yeah. Maybe that file Explorer tabs thing just appears one day. There's no way to know. Yeah. No way. You're right.

Leo Laporte (00:53:41):
There's no way to new.

Mary Jo Foley (00:53:43):

Paul Thurrott (00:53:43):
The thing is I, I, I just to defend them briefly, I will say windows 11 shipped in such an incomplete state. Yeah. Last October. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> that, you know, for that first year, especially like, okay, you wanna add some functional updates? Honestly, it kind of needs that. We didn't get much in the way of functional updates. There was that one thing in what February that was, you know, three or four different thing. I don't remember what was in it. It's not really not a big deal, but yeah. We'll see. I wouldn't, I, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised between now and the end of the year if we saw our functional updates at 22 H two. Yep.

Mary Jo Foley (00:54:17):
Same. Yep. But the feature update is the only one where the support clock starts ticking. Just so you know, like if you get those cumulative updates, it doesn't affect how long windows 11 is supported. It only is hinged around these feature updates.

Leo Laporte (00:54:35):

Paul Thurrott (00:54:36):

Mary Jo Foley (00:54:38):
It's true. But I, I mean, in terms of what is the significance of this announcement this week? It just means they're getting closer to rolling out 22 H two they're I can't even remember if there are any, I think we kind of decided last week, there weren't any really significant updates in 22 H two.

Paul Thurrott (00:54:55):
Oh wow. Wow.

Mary Jo Foley (00:54:57):
Do you think there are

Leo Laporte (00:54:59):

Mary Jo Foley (00:54:59):
Apparently Paul new accent color for new accent colors. There are improvements on task

Paul Thurrott (00:55:05):
Board, but I, I wouldn't say there are any traumatic improvements.

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:09):
That's what I mean, there's incremental up very incremental things like grouping your apps in a folder on your start menu. Woohoo. second start <laugh> <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:55:22):
Well, I, they brought back the ability to drag and drop a file onto an app icon in the task bar. That

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:27):
Is a big okay. Functional. Okay. That's that's a pretty good one. That's a pretty good one.

Paul Thurrott (00:55:31):
I think the discoverability of the snap layouts is really nice. That's a new feature. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:55:38):
Well, I'll find out in moments.

Paul Thurrott (00:55:40):
You will, you will. Yeah. Well, not in moments, but you know, in hours someday at some point.

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:45):

Leo Laporte (00:55:45):
By next week <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:55:48):
Yeah. Yeah. Let us know how that goes. You'll you'll be.

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:50):
Yeah. But business users, if you're planning to roll out 22 H two on mass to your customers later this year, if you have people on windows 11, you probably wanna start kicking the tires now that's why this is out there, right?

Leo Laporte (00:56:02):
Yeah. It professionals.

Mary Jo Foley (00:56:04):
Yeah. Yes. And actually leave it to the professionals, leave it to the first

Paul Thurrott (00:56:07):
<Laugh> and to, I guess, to back up what Mary Jo said, and also to once again, bizarrely defend Microsoft if you, if you accept that 22 H two is not a massive functional upgrade, you know, maybe that's for the best. Right. I mean, the times that Microsoft has tried to do a big functional update yep. Those have not gone so well. Right. And so you kind of want the slow and steady approach and I think that's what we're getting here.

Leo Laporte (00:56:33):
Yeah. So your tip worked still even with this release preview channel. That's

Paul Thurrott (00:56:38):
Right. Good. Yeah. It doesn't change the thing. Good. Yep. Yay.

Leo Laporte (00:56:40):
I'm I'm living proof. <Laugh> well, we'll see. Well, see, right. Yeah. We'll see. And this build has the, has the Microsoft store an arm? That's interesting.

Paul Thurrott (00:56:54):
So this is, so this is a different thing. So this is the a dev channel build. So 

Leo Laporte (00:56:59):
This is not the release, this something, this is something that,

Paul Thurrott (00:57:01):
No, this is something that could come 23 H two. It could be an interim, you know, M of update like Mary Jo was saying, but they released a dev channel build. I think it was last Thursday. They typically, they think they try to do it on Wednesday now, but sometimes it slips. Sometimes they skip, you know, it just doesn't work out that week. But the new dev channel build added among other things, a couple small things, but an arm native version of the Microsoft store, which means that to date, the Microsoft store is available. The windows and arm builds for windows 10 or 11 is an X 86 app. That's running an ambulation. Wow. Which is kind of crazy. Yeah. I mean, it's one of those things like you hear that and you're like, wait, what? <Laugh> like, this is this wasn't native the whole time. Okay. So I guess they're moving it native. So that's, you know, again, a little small step for arm. Big step for mankind. I don't know. Kind of moment, I guess. So, so anyways, in some future version of windows 11, the arm store will be I'm sorry. The win, the Microsoft store will be native on arm versions of windows 11.

Leo Laporte (00:58:05):
Hmm. Exciting mm-hmm <affirmative> and windows on arm is still beta. It's not,

Paul Thurrott (00:58:10):
No, it's a it's it's it's generally available.

Leo Laporte (00:58:12):
Oh, okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:58:13):
Yeah. It's just terrible. It's <laugh> it's it's I just brought up you can't see it actually, but I brought up a it's an HP elite folio, which is a gorgeous computer, like a black faux leather cover convertible form factor, perfect keyboard, really elegant looking modern. And it runs when, you know, it's an a, probably an eight CX chip set or whatever. It's garbage.

Leo Laporte (00:58:37):
It's just garbage. Yeah. I was disapp disappointed, cuz that was the, that was the laptop I wanted. I wanted a leather beautiful look.

Paul Thurrott (00:58:42):
It's it's gorgeous. Every time I bring it out, I'm like, oh my God, I love this thing. I know. And then you actually turn it on and wait for it to come up and be, oh,

Leo Laporte (00:58:48):
Lennox. Right. Actually you may not be able to, HP's hard to get Lennox on

Paul Thurrott (00:58:53):
Plus it's arm. I mean,

Leo Laporte (00:58:54):
Well, Lennox has alarm and Lennox are like

Paul Thurrott (00:58:57):
This arm and Lenox label. You're crazy.

Leo Laporte (00:59:00):
<Laugh> that's not a

Paul Thurrott (00:59:02):

Leo Laporte (00:59:05):
Somebody in the chat room, I don't remember his name was saying that he, even though he can't get windows 11, he's not eligible. He keeps getting pushed windows 11 or I think he's even getting pushed 22 H two <laugh>, which is

Paul Thurrott (00:59:19):
Hysterical. Yeah. So this is a story that just came out. It's not clear exactly what's happening here. I think it might be, I guess

Mary Jo Foley (00:59:26):
An update

Paul Thurrott (00:59:26):
You builds only. Oh, good. Okay. Why couldn't please? Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:59:30):
Yeah. So yeah, this came from Reddit, right? Like people were out complaining. I Reddit, like I'm getting pushed 22 H two, but I've got email from people about it. Yeah. Right. Yep. So Brandon Leblanc, who is program manager on insider program just said, we're investigating an issue where banner for windows 1122 H two is showing for PCs that are not eligible and we are, are working to fix it.

Paul Thurrott (00:59:55):
Okay. So it is exactly what I suspected and what I wrote back to the two people emailed me, which is, this feels like a mistake on Microsoft's part. Yep. So there you go. Oh,

Mary Jo Foley (01:00:05):
Because if you try to install it,

Paul Thurrott (01:00:07):
Just find on those computers.

Mary Jo Foley (01:00:08):
No, if you try to install it, you get error. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:12):
<Laugh> okay. Yep. Interesting. Okay. That's oh, I didn't mean say it's good, but all right. That makes

Mary Jo Foley (01:00:18):
Sense. Yeah. Yeah. No, but at least it makes sense because if it, if it wasn't a mistake, then you have to wonder like, what are they gonna relax? The requirements when 22 week shoe comes out or like,

Paul Thurrott (01:00:27):
What's going well. Yeah. Especially if it's if it's an insider build, you know, you're thinking, well maybe for 23 H two or something, they'll get, they'll let in some more computers there's some more generations or whatever, but

Mary Jo Foley (01:00:40):
Yeah, no, so far they're saying it's an in error. It's it is in error. <Laugh> yeah. Sorry.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:48):
An unearned error as we call

Mary Jo Foley (01:00:49):
It an unearned error. Yes

Paul Thurrott (01:00:52):
<Affirmative> yeah. Yeah. <Laugh> okay. I think Leo's gone. So let's press on.

Mary Jo Foley (01:00:59):
Okay. All right. Well good because this story is very important guys. Exchange server,

Paul Thurrott (01:01:08):
Is it?

Mary Jo Foley (01:01:09):
Yes. Because two years ago Microsoft said the ver the next version of exchange server that people could run on premises would be out in 2021. They said there'd be a new version of exchange server, a new version of SharePoint server, a new version of Skype for business server and a new version of project server. Right. Okay. So 2021 comes along and you get the new version of SharePoint server, which is called SharePoint server. Also the project server subscription additions. So what these are is they're on premises versions of the products. They have a lot of new features that already have been in the online versions at being added to on premises. And to use them, you have to buy a subscription to get security updates and feature updates. So it's kind of like a hybrid it's it is on premises completely, but you have to have a subscription to get the updates.

Mary Jo Foley (01:02:06):
They say nothing about exchange. Okay. They say nothing about Skype for business. Time goes by, I keep getting emails from readers. Like where is the next version of exchange server? I keep emailing Microsoft. They say, we have nothing to share. I'm like, okay, so what is happening? Right? Like, are they gonna stop building exchange server for on-prem? I know a lot of customers want this. Right. <laugh> so then they come out with an update and said, you know what? We've been thinking a lot about this. And because of all the security issues that have happened involving exchange over the past several years, we're gonna really revamp what we're doing with the next version of exchange server. And in the interim, we're gonna keep supporting exchange server 2019, and we're gonna add more features and functionality to that. So if you're somebody who's been sitting around waiting for the next exchange, you should just upgrade to exchange server 2019, because they're gonna support that until 20, 25 in October now. And that's when the next version of exchange will come out on premises is 20, 25. So some people are very alarmed about this. They're like, wait, so they're gonna, they're gonna support exchange server till 20, 25. But at the same time, they're gonna roll out the new exchange in 2025. Right. so that's a little concerning, cuz that's not a big window of opportunity, right? Like say you're on 20, the 2019, and suddenly here's the new version, but you've got like a month before support ends. Right. <laugh> so they they're saying we're gonna make it.

Paul Thurrott (01:03:35):
Everyone will just move to the cloud in the interim.

Mary Jo Foley (01:03:37):
I, yeah, I know. That's what some people said. This is a way to push people to the cloud. But the people on the exchange server team are saying no, that's not what we're trying to do. We're gonna make it so easy to upgrade from 2019 to whatever the next version is called. If it's called 20, 25 or whatever we're building all these kinds of things in, so you're not gonna have to change your hardware. You're not gonna have to redo your mailboxes, all these things. So it's gonna be a super easy and fast upgrade. So they're acting like, don't worry, we got this. Even if we give you a month to upgrade, you're gonna be okay, <laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:04:08):
Anybody's running exchange server on Preem is used to constant continuous pain

Mary Jo Foley (01:04:14):
Stuff. Yes. Used to, yes, they are used to abuse, but there's so many people, so many people still do

Leo Laporte (01:04:18):
Are still really a lot of people running

Mary Jo Foley (01:04:19):
On prem. Yes, yes. For

Leo Laporte (01:04:21):
Security reasons or privacy

Mary Jo Foley (01:04:23):
Compliance, compliance privacy. Right. yeah. That's primarily what, who I hear from

Paul Thurrott (01:04:29):

Paul Thurrott (01:04:33):
This is probably not related. But there's another Microsoft post today on dev logs about exchange online and how they're moving that product, they call core, which is goofy. They're moving it six is what they're doing. Right? Yeah. So what used, what used to core? So I guess the current version is largely written in C sharp, which I would imagine on pre exchange is not. And it must be on framework, you know, 4.7 or 4.8 or whatever, you know, the Right. But I wonder, you know, I, this seems like a big engineering effort, right? It's not, it's not as simple as going to visual studio, checking, you know, six bucks and recompiling. Like I'm sure there's a lot of work to do here. They're

Mary Jo Foley (01:05:16):
Doing a lot to,

Paul Thurrott (01:05:17):
This is in any way impacting. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:05:20):
It could be like security related somehow. Right. Because there's so many security issues that have affected exchange over the past several, several years.

Leo Laporte (01:05:27):
Right. It's been awful. Right. Oh my God. It's just nonstop.

Mary Jo Foley (01:05:32):
Yeah. And if you're wondering about, so that's, that's no, so that's the update on, on exchange server on Preem. But if you're somebody who's also waiting for a Skype for business, the next version on Preem and I have a lot of people also waiting for that, I, we have no info, none, no info. They are saying anything. I would be

Paul Thurrott (01:05:49):
Shocked if there was a new version of that product. I, I,

Mary Jo Foley (01:05:52):
They supposed to be, I can't, there is

Paul Thurrott (01:05:54):
No, I know they're supposed

Leo Laporte (01:05:55):
To be by now a couple years.

Paul Thurrott (01:05:58):
It's supposed to be a lot of things. We're supposed to have flying cars by now too. But

Mary Jo Foley (01:06:01):
No, you know what, you know why they do this. Cuz they have big customers who demand it basically. And they're like, I I'm not buying this unless you can promise me. And, and they even said in the exchange block, this is not necessarily our last version of exchange server on prem. Like there could be more unlikely will be more in the future. Cuz there are customers who are like, I can't see an end date for when I'm gonna get off exchange on prem.

Leo Laporte (01:06:23):
Yeah. This is, this is the part of Microsoft. That's like Oracle, it's just like yes or SAP,

Mary Jo Foley (01:06:28):
Keep going with the

Leo Laporte (01:06:29):
Just big monster enterprise. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (01:06:33):
And they gotta do what the customers want because they're the big, big customers like the fortune 50,

Paul Thurrott (01:06:40):
This exchange online thing is I don't, this is a different part of Microsoft. Cuz if you think about like, why would you move a code base six today, right? Yeah. That's the number, onequestion the number one answer that any developer would tell you and is true based on what I've read is performance improvements, right? It's mm-hmm <affirmative> do net six is significantly five and three point X whenever we go back to the cloud. Yeah. But they also, so they say that they're like, yep, we're doing it that and then, but then it gets, then it starts to fall off the side of a cliff. It's like there's three reasons. Right? So the second reason is do net framework is no longer being actively developed is actively being supported and will be supported for probably another decade, frankly. But and so we wanted to move to a modern framework that was blazing a trail to the future. Okay. <affirmative> okay. And then the third and this is the, the ridiculous answer is it's cool and shiny and new. No <laugh> that is, that is not

Mary Jo Foley (01:07:38):
A reason,

Paul Thurrott (01:07:39):
Not a reason. And that makes me doubt everything you're doing. But anyway, it's, it's good that they're doing that work. I'm

Leo Laporte (01:07:45):
Sure. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:07:46):
Anyway, I'm gonna look at that more closely, a little and a little later, but that's you know, maybe, maybe it's unrelated.

Leo Laporte (01:07:53):
<Laugh> all right. I don't know. I don't know. So you watched Mary Jo probably had her head undercovers. Yes. Monday, but you watched the apple event. Paul?

Mary Jo Foley (01:08:09):
I didn't even know there was an,

Leo Laporte (01:08:11):
Ah, I love it. But Paul, I could see your snark on TWiTtter. So I knew that you, yes, you were paying attention.

Paul Thurrott (01:08:20):
I was on

Leo Laporte (01:08:21):
FAA FAA. You were <laugh>. You were <laugh> let's take a break when we come back. I, I want to get your reaction to cuz one of the things I thought about, and it was weird, but micro apple, that's a new app. It looked like a shared whiteboard. Didn't look like a big deal, but I thought yep. Free freeform looked. Maybe

Paul Thurrott (01:08:42):
Doing one of

Leo Laporte (01:08:42):
Those. Yeah. So anyway, we'll

Paul Thurrott (01:08:44):
Talk about, or like the Google, Google has one, I think it's called

Leo Laporte (01:08:47):
Google had waves way back in the day. But yeah, they're doing canvas. I know. But now

Paul Thurrott (01:08:50):
They have something called I think it's called canvas. Yeah. Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:08:54):
Loop. And you said, you said I loved it and loop that's right. And you said, and I'm reading this as we're doing it. <Laugh> nobody wants to collab. Right. But okay. We'll talk about that. <Laugh> yeah. Of all the people, because you

Paul Thurrott (01:09:08):
Let's go do that thing. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:09:09):
Let's go thing. No one wants, but you and Mary Jo Dew. That's why we use notion. Anyway, we'll talk about that in a sec.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:15):
Oh, today, Leah. We have a story about just today.

Leo Laporte (01:09:17):
Oh good. All right. Our show today brought to you by Neve N U V E. I do you know them to their tomorrow's payment platform designed to accelerate your business. A lot of people start, you know, payment platform. They don't pay much attention. They use somebody and it maybe by now you're starting to realize it's holding you back. You need something a little more modern. You need new vey, you need new Veys next generation payment technology. It not only boosts conversions, which of course is a big part of your bottom line. It reduces fraud. Yes. And increases approval rates. Plus it's gonna work seamlessly with your existing tech stack. So it's not a big rewrite. It's a, it's a simple thing to connect new A's platform, a single API integration. It's an agile platform. Your business will be allowed to add new payment methods and or more markets Novey offers.

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That's a really, that's a Testament to how well Novey works in challenging environments globally with Futureproof technology, a dedicated team of 24 by seven, by 365 human support human support professionals. Somebody will answer your call. Novey prepares your business for whatever comes next. Say goodbye to abandon carts, poor approval rates, high chargebacks with new vey, N U V E I the platform fast forwarding to the next generation of payments. Turn payments into powerful accelerators for your business. Neve.Com N U V Neve tomorrow's payment platform. We thank you so much for supporting windows weekly. So it's funny cuz Paul, now, when I watch an apple event, I always think about your, you know what Paul's thinking <laugh>, as he's watching this, you're the loyal opposition or maybe disloyal, I don't know. But you know, your point of view's important. You're muted right now, by the way.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:25):
No, I, I feel like I'm just clear-eyed about it, you know, I think

Leo Laporte (01:12:31):
That's another way to put it.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:33):
Yeah. Well it's the, it's the Paul positive way to put it. <Laugh> I mean, it's the

Paul Thurrott (01:12:38):
You know, it's it's

Leo Laporte (01:12:38):
No, I always want your take. I agree. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:41):
By the way, for whatever it's worth. We were talking earlier Mary Jo and I about the apple thing and she kind of said, she said it exactly the right thing, which is, she said, I feel like what they do is always incremental. And I'm like, yeah, that's almost always true. And you know, I iPad multitasking specifically, you know, most years they'll be like a little advance, you know, one year they, they skipped it entirely one year, they added like most track. That was huge. And then this year that, you know, they're doing yet another step and, and yeah, it's incremental. They, they never will just take like, just make it like a Mac. No, <laugh>, you know, will probably get there eventually, but it might take like 10 years, you know, the iPad is 12 years old. They've really baby stepped into this stuff and that's, that's what apple is.

Paul Thurrott (01:13:27):
But you know, you do something that people have wanted for a million years. Like actually look at the lock screen and be able to do something with it, which is useless today on an iPhone. You know, you get like a standing ovation for this. It's like, why didn't you do this 10 years ago? You know, <laugh> because they're apple. Like they just, they, they move really plotting. I mean, it's just the way they are, but they present everything. Like it's the, you know, greatest innovation that's ever happened. And these days, because they're doing these virtual events, it's like the same budget as a star wars movie. So special effects there's Z a with special effects. They zooming around like it's mission impossible or something. And it's like, yeah. Okay. But I don't feel like those things are gonna age very well personally, but

Leo Laporte (01:14:09):
Yeah, the initial reaction for people installed the developer beta since the event on Monday was it's kind of a mess, but it is very early public betas next month. I think it's more important than that. Cuz I think what Apple's saying is we are gonna do, we are gonna make these very power by the way, doesn't apply to most iPads. Just the most

Paul Thurrott (01:14:31):
Powerful, no one. They never said that. And that's true. You need an M one based iPad for a lot of it.

Leo Laporte (01:14:37):
Two, some errors will do do it as well.

Paul Thurrott (01:14:39):
Okay. No, I'm talking for the, that specific stage

Leo Laporte (01:14:42):
Manager. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and but you want something powerful. It really, what I think they're saying is we're gonna have two different computing systems, right? The M one iPads, which are as powerful as the desktops, but are touch. And so they're gonna, and they, they're not gonna do what Microsoft did, which try to shoehorn touch into a desktop operating system. They're they're they're bifurcating. They're not gonna make Macs more like iPad. They're not gonna make iPad more like Macs. Yeah. They're

Paul Thurrott (01:15:10):
Gonna be they're actually you're right. But they're, I would say they're cating because they've created a world. There are now two different kinds of what's on iPad. I mean, yeah. Like there, there are two different kinds of iPads. Now there are iPads that can do this stuff and iPads that can't and some of them are the same size <laugh>, you know, some of 'em are smaller. That's cute, whatever. But I, the apple approach is is quirky. I, I will say some of the stuff they do grows on me, even though I'm initially opposed to it like that app library, the thing they added to iOS a few versions back, I was like, what did just add an all apps screen quite out loud. And there's a weird series of swipes you have to do just to get to that all apps list. But the thing is as goofy as it is, I actually kind of like app library. Like I often find what I need in those thumbnails and don't have to go any farther. And I, it actually kind of works and I think their goofy way of thinking differently, for lack of a

Leo Laporte (01:16:09):
Better term, they're making, they're not giving you a an Explorer, a file Explorer. No they're not giving you a finder, but they are giving you more capable files. I think that this is just gonna be, this is, this is desktop computing for people who grew up with I iOS with iPhones for

Paul Thurrott (01:16:27):
Yeah. And that's everybody.

Leo Laporte (01:16:28):
Yeah. It's everybody now.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:28):
Unfortunately. So

Leo Laporte (01:16:29):
It's everybody. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:31):
So yeah. And this is, look we, sorry.

Leo Laporte (01:16:34):
No, this is their, this solves an, a problem they had, which means we have, they even do ads for iPads saying what's a computer. Right? Sure. But it is a computer. In fact, it's very CA the pros are very, very capable and nothing's ever lived up the software's never lived up to the power of the hardware. This is

Paul Thurrott (01:16:52):
It's goofy. That Apple's the thing holding the iPad back, right. Yeah. Because you know, the, when the iPad first arrived, there was this kind of debate and that we would've had in the windows eight timeframe as well. Like, do you take this really complex thing windows and bring it down and add touch, which didn't work so well. Or do you take this really simple thing, iOS put it on a larger device and kind of bring it up and add functionality to it. And so apple has gone that route. It's I would say it's worked out pretty well. It would've worked out even better if they had just moved a lower quickly, like I don't, they're plotting refusal to like, make this thing full featured for the people that want that is so goofy.

Leo Laporte (01:17:31):
Well, they still

Paul Thurrott (01:17:31):

Leo Laporte (01:17:32):
You know, they still have a Mac. I mean, they still have the air and the MacBook air and stuff. And so yeah, the MacBook air functionally, isn't so very different than an iPad. It's about the same size. It has a keyboard. That's the big difference. And it's running Mac up.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:43):
Well, doesn't have touch. There's

Leo Laporte (01:17:44):
No touch. Yeah. Well, I think they're saying there's gonna be, you know,

Paul Thurrott (01:17:48):

Leo Laporte (01:17:49):
I don't, I think they're kind of on an interesting path. I, you, I also think that this collaboration thing is very interesting. The other thing somebody said about this new whiteboard app that they just handed at it looked like a shared whiteboard is this could also be for them a step towards AR that this may end up being an AR productivity app. Okay. Take away the white. Interesting. And you've got floating widgets. Yep. You could put videos in there. Documents, web pages, text notes, drawings.

Paul Thurrott (01:18:21):
Yeah. Look, I, I, I, for people who are in that ecosystem, I'll just say, you're all going to hell and I don't

Leo Laporte (01:18:27):
Know what you

Paul Thurrott (01:18:28):
Know, <laugh> no, it's well,

Leo Laporte (01:18:29):
That's the other thing they made a massive ecosystem play because all of this stuff is, you know, only works best. I mean, if you got all apple, don't even try to use an Android phone with this, you know, you'd be nuts. That's right.

Paul Thurrott (01:18:42):
Right. And that's, and look, I, those advantages are real. I mean, there's good business, incredible stuff there. Yeah. I'm using an iPhone right now with this comp windows, computer with a cable and the software they're

Leo Laporte (01:18:55):
Using camo. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:18:56):
They sure camel building that into Mac OS, whatever they sure like that. And they're gonna let you Mount the, your iPhone on top of your laptop. Like it's a giant webcam. Yeah. And use it that way and, and okay. I mean, that's great. I mean,

Leo Laporte (01:19:11):

Paul Thurrott (01:19:12):
You already have the best camera in the world is in your pocket and you're not using it for web calls, you know? So here's a way to do that.

Leo Laporte (01:19:18):
I mean, camo to its credit works with Android, which of course true. This apple technology will not

Paul Thurrott (01:19:24):
Well. And it also works with an iPhone, with a windows computer, which the iPhone will, you know, apple will not support.

Leo Laporte (01:19:29):
The other thing that they announced which I think is really important is pass keys. They're gonna, now they're joining with Google and Microsoft. They're gonna add pass keys. I think finally we are seeing the beginning of the end of passwords.

Paul Thurrott (01:19:43):
Yeah. Thank God. Apple had to step in to make that happen cuz God knows we haven't been doing it in the windows world for two years or whatever. Well,

Leo Laporte (01:19:49):
But <laugh>, but, but you know, now everybody's doing it, I guess is the point. It's good. And there, Steve Gibson raised an interesting question yesterday, he said, but is it interoperable? In other words, if I start with an iPhone, right. Can I move to an Android phone? Can if I start with a phone,

Paul Thurrott (01:20:05):
Only someone who's never used an iPhone who would ever ask that question? That's hilarious. <Laugh> I love Steve Gibson, but it's a great

Leo Laporte (01:20:10):
Question. Apple apparently says it is. They had a track yesterday at WWDC and they said there is a

Paul Thurrott (01:20:17):
An export. I enjoy that. They introduced that feature without mentioning any industry support whatsoever. It was just like an apple thing. Although they did talk about matter, which I thought was kind of interesting. This doesn't impact us too much, but this smart home standard is humongous and Google went is going all out, supporting it as well. Yeah. So matter matters or whatever, but that's, that was good.

Leo Laporte (01:20:38):
I'm less excited about home automation. I kind of feel like that that ship is sailed, but PAs skis is gonna change everybody's life. I think

Paul Thurrott (01:20:45):
Because, well, you know, no, you know, what matter matter matter is like the is to smart home, what quick pair is to Bluetooth. It's it's just a, it's just making a little bit simpler. Yeah. And, and also I think the cross ecosystem thing is huge. Most smart home devices will work with home kid and work with Google assistant or whatever it's called. But I think just having the, a, you need a standard. I think it's, it's fine. It's not gonna change my life, but I think it's a, it's a good thing.

Leo Laporte (01:21:14):
Well, there you go. That's our quick and dirty Paul take on WWDC. See?

Paul Thurrott (01:21:21):

Leo Laporte (01:21:22):
Anything else? That's enough. Yeah. That's enough. That's more than enough. More than it is, but that's one more <laugh> <laugh> Fort Mary Jo. She's got this and still Xbox to come. I know let's talk about the windows app SDK though, before we move on.

Paul Thurrott (01:21:38):
Yeah. So this is that thing that used to be called project reunion. It was the attempt by Microsoft to decouple what used to be UWP capabilities from specific versions of windows 10 and now windows 11 and make them available to all versions of, of windows that are currently supported. Right? So that's actually, that alone is kind of a big deal. It doesn't erase the central problem with UWP, which is that it's a Wint based set of APIs that is really designed for mobile apps. I, I guess one of the, it's hard to, I I'm, I've been working with this a lot lately and I still I'm having trouble understanding what the point of this is, but I believe that when you create a windows app SDK app, it's, it's actually a technically a desktop app, but it's, I don't know what that means to, I don't it's, it's, it's, it's really a non coupled UWP.

Paul Thurrott (01:22:30):
I don't know what it is. It's very strange, but you get the newer capabilities, like when you, I three. So if you look at something like the version of notepad that's in windows 11 I don't actually know for a fact that that was CRI with when UI three, other than the fact that I'm trying to recreate it in when the windows app SD can, it looks identical. So to me, you get access to all those, you know, the new materials that new, when UI stuff, the new tech rendering, et cetera, et cetera. So anyway app SDK 1.0, came out, I think in November and app SDK 1.1 was supposed to come out during build, and it just came out this past week. So it was delayed by about a week and a half or whatever. And you know, what's new, I mean, push notifications support for multiple windows, you know, the original version supported like windowed applications, obviously. And a few other things there's really not a lot going on there, but it's just the latest version. It supports Micah that opaque background material that Mary Jo probably notices in all the new apps because it's super different from,

Leo Laporte (01:23:38):
Oh, I thought you meant Micah Sergeant, which is, you know, it

Paul Thurrott (01:23:40):
Doesn't support mic side, you know, there's Noack support

Leo Laporte (01:23:43):

Paul Thurrott (01:23:44):
Anyway, it's out now. So I'm probably gonna write something about the windows app SDK. I'm not sure I'm gonna, I'm gonna do the full app thing. I might just explain how you would bring it up cuz you the, the UWP project I made, you could basically just copy that copy and paste. It would work in windows, app SDK. I may, I don't know. I'm, I'm looking into that, but there's some neat stuff you can do. They, they actually have some good starter projects you can get where you automatically get things like that. Slide out settings pain and the ability to go between dark and light themes and stuff like that. Like they actually build templates for you now that you can get all that stuff for free. So there's some, there's some niceties to it, but not a, not a major release by any starts the imagination, but a release as we call it

Leo Laporte (01:24:29):
A release,

Paul Thurrott (01:24:29):
We put a release, it is a release. It's like windows 11. It's not a major release, but it is a release.

Leo Laporte (01:24:35):
Yeah. All right. There's no way around it. Mary Jo, we've gotta do it. It's Xbox time. It looks short. At least, God, it,

Paul Thurrott (01:24:45):
God is

Leo Laporte (01:24:45):
Short. <Laugh> it?

Paul Thurrott (01:24:46):
God is. It is very short. Because what used to be called E three and will next year be called E three again is not happening this coming week, but it normally would be. And Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo, I'm sure all the big game companies are gonna start, you know, making announcements. In fact, I'll just do this a little bit out of order. Active vision today announced college duty water warfare too. Or, or as I call it the thing I will be spending my next year and a half playing. So I haven't, because this happened just as we were starting a show, I haven't really been able to watch this, but there's some single player stuff happening, multiplayer that they're talking about, all the content they're gonna release to the wake of this. They really wanna make up for the disaster. That was the last world war II game. So this is probably gonna be a really big release. The original, well, the original, the remake or whatever you wanna call it. The redo of the modern warfare title that came out, I guess three years ago now was probably the biggest game they ever released. And this is this, you know, obviously the sequel. So they're doing the trilogy again. This is coming out on October 28th, which I think is bill Gates's birthday. Oh, I don't know why. I know that. How

Leo Laporte (01:25:53):
Nice to celebrate. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:25:55):
Yeah. Anyway. Okay. So that's happening? E three, like I said, not happening this year is happening next year. They're gonna do a hybrid event next year. So they really,

Leo Laporte (01:26:03):
I don't are they really?

Paul Thurrott (01:26:05):
Yeah. They're well, that's what they said. <Laugh>, you know, we don't see it. We know with E three things change. Yeah. and then 

Leo Laporte (01:26:11):
That sounds more like aspirational. Like if we could get Microsoft Sony <laugh> Nintendo active vision EA to show up, Hey, we could have a show. They won't.

Paul Thurrott (01:26:24):
Right. I mean, even when E three was an ongoing thing, the big players were having side events outside of E

Leo Laporte (01:26:30):
Three. And that was the beginning of the erosion of E.

Paul Thurrott (01:26:32):
Yeah. Yeah. So I don't, I, you know, I don't, can they get back Sony and Microsoft?

Leo Laporte (01:26:38):
Probably not. No,

Paul Thurrott (01:26:39):
Probably not. Probably not. No, but I bet we have a lot of game news next week so we can stay tuned for that. The developer of Minecraft Moja studios, or as we would call it Mexico, Mohan studios,

Leo Laporte (01:26:50):
<Laugh> Mohan, Mohan studio.

Paul Thurrott (01:26:53):
I's tell you, we have a, we know a guy then whose name is Joel, or as they call him in Mexico, Hoel

Leo Laporte (01:26:57):

Paul Thurrott (01:26:58):

Paul Thurrott (01:27:00):
This is a really hard thing to say. I don't, you look, you just don't see that word when you look at his name. No. You may know this, if you're familiar with Minecraft, Minecraft started as a Java game and it was extensible all these add-ons and things happen for it. Yeah. And then they made a due version of it that was not based on Java and those where things are completely yeah. Bedrock edition. Exactly. Yeah. So those two things are completely incompatible. Today they have released the Minecraft Java and bedrock edition on PC. I

Leo Laporte (01:27:26):
Have to figure out what this means, cuz I run a Java server. So what does that mean?

Paul Thurrott (01:27:34):
So I don't think they've actually combined them. There's a single launcher where you can get into either ah, Minecraft Java addition. So like the legacy version

Leo Laporte (01:27:43):
Platform. It's a unified launcher. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (01:27:44):
It's a, I believe that's makes I believe. Yes it is. Java and bedrock will remain separate games. Distinctive features.

Leo Laporte (01:27:52):
Yeah. See, I wanted to be able to let bedrock, I wanted to play for instance, on my server on the iPad with bedrock, but I can't, that's a Java server.

Paul Thurrott (01:27:59):
What you want is Ray tracing and all those, you know, those awesome features. They're starting

Leo Laporte (01:28:04):
Build Ray traced. Minecraft is

Paul Thurrott (01:28:06):
Wild. Yeah, no they're gonna remain separate, but they're what they're doing now is instead of having them as two separate things, you buy kind of separate, like you buy, you just get 'em both together. It's so I, yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I never did I ever play, I don't think I ever played the job a version. I don't think

Leo Laporte (01:28:20):
So. Oh man. I played it nonstop. Still play it once in a while. Yeah. Kids do. We have a club TWiT Minecraft, two Minecraft service for club TWiTt. We have a hard survival game. That's really hard. And we have the old TWiTt build that OMG, Chad did. That's the whole, you know, the studio and everything. This whole is huge, beautiful build. So those I run both of those in club fit members can get in those,

Paul Thurrott (01:28:45):
Given that this would've been E three and that there will almost certainly be a ton of announcements between now and next week. I'm suggesting that maybe Mary Jo comes up with some kind of a jury duty excuse or something

Leo Laporte (01:28:58):

Paul Thurrott (01:28:59):

Leo Laporte (01:28:59):
Next week to feed my cat

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:02):
Guys, call the next big game. Call of jury duty. You hear

Leo Laporte (01:29:07):

Paul Thurrott (01:29:07):
Call of jury duty. <Laugh> that's awesome.

Leo Laporte (01:29:11):
That could be a real zombie game. That would be fun. <Laugh> yeah. Call of jury duty. All right. Yeah. Michael still plays Cod. He likes the zombie level zombies. Yeah. Plays it all the time. Yep. Still plays it with all the games he has. He still plays it. I

Paul Thurrott (01:29:30):
Never got into zombie. I tried it, you know, each time.

Leo Laporte (01:29:34):
Yeah. You have to be, you have to like that kind of kind of game, which is a little weird. I

Paul Thurrott (01:29:38):
Don't, yeah, it's the type of, I, I like the graphical style of it. I've often

Leo Laporte (01:29:42):
Said that there's no better

Paul Thurrott (01:29:44):
Thing to shoot than a Nazi zombie. I mean, my God it's it's the most guilt free crime imagine.

Leo Laporte (01:29:50):
Yeah. They deserved it, you know? Yeah. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> when we set up the Minecraft server, I wanted to make it easy to remember now, you know, just not just enter in a IP address. So what did I do? I went to our sponsor, and I got a domain just for the Minecraft server. It was kind of fun. Cuz I said to Michael, who was at the time, maybe 14, 15. I said, what do you wanna name it? I'm not gonna say what it is, but I mean, you still couldn't get in, but I, I don't want to give out the name, but it's hysterical. And I said, okay, went to, registered it. And now it's easy for him and anybody else. And actually, you know, who knows it, the people in club TWiTtter who go to that server, cuz that's the name it's pretty funny.

Leo Laporte (01:30:32):
Hover is a great way to get domain names. Something silly like your Minecraft server, something serious like your business, your portfolio. If you're a, a photographer, an artist, an online store, your blog, I got the, I could never get cuz you because you know, various people own it. So I went to hover. I typed in Leo and got a whole bunch of choices. Finally ended up doing That's actually shorter than I love it. If you wanna make, just as something as simple as a more memorable redirect to your LinkedIn page, hover has the best domain names for you and email too. In fact, I really wanna put in a plug for this on the radio show. We get people all the time saying my AOL email is broken. My, I can't get into my Yahoo mail and I, I wanna make a plug for, if you use email, it's important to you.

Leo Laporte (01:31:34):
Don't use a free service pay a little bit, not a lot. It's a few bucks a year, but pay a little bit so that you've got a better email and hovers got that. Not just, you know, It's it's your custom domain name. So if your business so much better, if you're a plumber, a carpenter, a hamburger joint, a dry cleaner to have your business Hover has it for you or you know, they have some fun ones too. If you're pizza joint, you can,, man, that would be a good name for a pizza parlor, right? Easy to set up. And if you get hover mail, it's domain based, you could add as many mailboxes to your domain as you need. And you don't have to think about it cuz when your domain renews, your mailbox is renewed too. It's a very affordable choice.

Leo Laporte (01:32:23):
If, if email's important to you, stop using Gmail, stop using free solutions, get your own domain name, get email hover. You're gonna get better support, much better, real support, actual support. You're gonna get a great service. They have web mail. So you can use your browser to check your email, but you can also use any mail client it's standard. I map mail. I love it. And hover. I, the other thing I love about hover they're Canadian. They're nice. They don't <laugh> they don't upsell you. They're not there just to get you to sign up for a bunch of stuff. Some of those other registrars, you sign up for a domain name, there there's 20 pages of other things that you have to say, no, I don't want that. No, I don't want that. No, I don't want that hovers. Not pushy. No they know you're gonna want, for instance, who is privacy, they don't upsell you on that.

Leo Laporte (01:33:08):
They give it to you. It's included with your domain purchase. That's important. In fact, anytime you register domain name, because as part of the registration process, your email, your address, your name become phone number, become public. So you want, who has privacy to hide that so that you don't get spam and get weird people calling you, stuff like that. That's something everybody wants. Hover knows that they don't upsell it. They just build it in. You also get the best pro level tools, whether you're a web pro and you know, all there is to know about DNS that you'll like the DNS management console. If not, they have simple one button connects to almost all the main websites, hover connect. They call it. It lets you start using your domain name with a couple of clicks. The point at hover is you are a customer, not a source of data.

Leo Laporte (01:33:56):
So take back control of your data with reliable email tracker free hovers, trusted by hundreds of thousands of customers. All my domains are registered at hover. I just, and I literally have dozens. Turn your ideas into a reality or your Minecraft server into a clever name. Whether you're a developer photographer, small business, hover has something for you to expand your projects and get the visibility you want. And if you're doing email and you're not your company name is not in the email. Go to Right now you'll get 10% off your first purchase of any domain extension. And they've got dozens for the first year. Hover.Com/TWiT 10% off your domain extension for a full year. We love hover. Thank you hover for supporting windows weekly and Paul and Mary Jo. And you support 'em too. When you go to H ho V E K Paul time for the back of the book.

Leo Laporte (01:34:51):
Yes. What on earth did you have time to put a sticker on that laptop? <Laugh> well, I, you know, one thing I, you know, I was Jim latterback bless his heart. <Laugh> when we were at tech TV, he was the guy who wrote the ethics policy. And one thing he did is he went around the whole studio and he taped over all the brand names and all the monitors and all the computers because he said, no, no, no, we're not this. This is we're using, we're not plugging. So I make it a habit of, of, of doing that. And I happen to have a nice little TWiTt sticker. Now, the way it's angled, you can't really tell, but if I tilt it, you might see that Dell sticker, the Dell silvery, Dell beneath it. But I, but if it's tilted like that, you can't tell clever a <laugh> a, now that's my tip of the week. What's yours.

Paul Thurrott (01:35:41):
I have three, three, it's a big wi big week for tips. Woohoo, for some reason. So this one's, this one's just basic. So contrary to Mary Joe's assertion that there's nothing new in windows 1122 H two. I've started a series describing those new features. Oh

Leo Laporte (01:35:57):
Good. I actually to read that now that many actually

Paul Thurrott (01:35:59):
<Laugh> so I've only written two so far about the start. It'll be quick. You'll show they're brief. They're like pamphlets the start menu and the task bar. And let me see, I have a list of probably should have had this ready it's in here somewhere. But I'll be if this ever comes up. Yeah. So snap file explore in one drive, search, quick settings, desktop and lock screen task manager, settings, and accessibility are all coming. So there'll be more and let's see that's that was quick, like the update itself. And then I mentioned this adding the windows 11 visual style to Microsoft edge. So last week Microsoft released edge version 1 0 2, which didn't seem to have much in the way of new features, but actually you can set a flag and enable an, it will basically display an option in settings that will enable the windows 11 visual style.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:52):
And then there's a second option. And this is that tab thing we were talking about earlier, where you can also use rounded corners for browser tabs. And what that does is it makes the browser tabs kind of separate and float as little rounded rectangles. Some people don't like that, obviously. So you don't have to do that. That's optional. You don't have to do any of this actually, but it's a separate option. So you can do that as well. If you would like to get the full experience. I think it looks nice personally. And then the third one, and this is, this is weird because it actually comes from my wife, my wife spends, I bet she interviews at least one person almost every single day. She SPEs how she spends her life. When she writes a lot of it is based on interviews with doctors and so forth.

Paul Thurrott (01:37:34):
And she records these calls using zoom, and then she uses a feature that's only in word for web. It's not in word for windows that will transcribe any audio or video file for you. You need a Microsoft 365 account to do this. There's actually a limit on how much you can do per month, which I don't believe Microsoft documents, but she has run into this limit because she transcribed so much. And so lemme see if I can find the limit. The limit is 300 minutes of transcription per month. If you're on 298 minutes and you have to transcribe a 60 minute call, it will actually do that for you. So it's, you know, the last transcription, once it crosses over 300, you're done for the month. So the reason I know this feature exists is because she almost every month she hits this limit. And at the end of the month, she still says, sending me files and say, Hey, do you mind transcribing

Leo Laporte (01:38:22):
<Laugh> that's

Paul Thurrott (01:38:23):
This has happened enough. So this is how this has benefited me, right? So I go back and I watch all these old Microsoft events on YouTube. And a lot of them are not on official channels. They don't have transcriptions. I dunno if you know this, but a lot of YouTube videos actually have automatic transcriptions. That's something you can do with most YouTube videos. But a lot of the ones I've been watching for this series I've been writing do not. So I can download the file the, the video, put it up into word for web, transcribe it, pop it down. And then I can use, instead of having to sit there and try to type everything exactly, like they said I can get a transcription that way. So kind of a fun, little thing to know about. I don't think most people do know about that. It, you do need a Microsoft 365 account.

Leo Laporte (01:39:05):
So walk, which,

Mary Jo Foley (01:39:06):
Which ones accounts can it be? Personal

Leo Laporte (01:39:10):
Consumer. Yep. Oh, yep. Yeah. I didn't know about it. Yeah. It's pretty good transfer.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:14):
I don't think anyone knows about it. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:39:15):
It's a great feature because there's, I use commercial services like, but they're not free. Yeah. Yep. I mean they're free, but they're not that's right. Free forever. Alright. Walk me through this edge thing. Yes. To make it look pretty, pretty, pretty

Paul Thurrott (01:39:30):
Actually the easiest thing for you to do would be to click on the link in the 

Leo Laporte (01:39:35):
The tab

Paul Thurrott (01:39:36):
In the notes.

Leo Laporte (01:39:38):
Click on your link. Oh, oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:41):
Some the week number two, right? Yeah, because what it has is the exact link to go, like instead of going to flags and searching, it has the exact link to go to it. So it's like edge

Leo Laporte (01:39:49):
Flags. Oh. But I should do that in. Okay. So I need to need to do that in edge.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:55):
So, so what you, you do that and then you restart there.

Leo Laporte (01:39:57):
It is edge.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:58):
Then when you go into edge sevens and go to appearance is gonna be a new option there called show windows, 11 visual effects and the title bar and toolbar. Got it. Preview enable that option, restart the browser again. And then you'll get the windows 11

Leo Laporte (01:40:11):
Looking feel. Here we go. Here's edge settings. It's a show experimental experience settings. Should I change that?

Paul Thurrott (01:40:20):
Yep. To

Leo Laporte (01:40:21):
Enabled enabled. All right, right.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:24):

Leo Laporte (01:40:24):
At the roll over. That's all just to restart and that's it. Oh, there's still more.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:29):
Okay. Oh no. There's more. So then now go to the setting. So the and the,

Leo Laporte (01:40:33):
Oh, you do that before. Cause you have to turn that experiment on. Yeah. And now I go to

Paul Thurrott (01:40:38):
That's in the UI. This that's what? Put it in the UI. So you go to settings. Yep. Go to appearance on the left.

Leo Laporte (01:40:45):

Paul Thurrott (01:40:46):
Now, if you you'll see an option, it says show windows 11 visual effects.

Leo Laporte (01:40:49):
There it is. Turn that on. Now you have to restart again. Let's restart and see. Oh, it's so much better.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:57):
But if you turn on the rounded corners,

Leo Laporte (01:40:59):

Paul Thurrott (01:41:00):
That would, that

Leo Laporte (01:41:01):
Will be even better. Better. It's the full meal deal. <Laugh> oh yeah. Now it's just like, it's just like Firefox, right? That's

Paul Thurrott (01:41:08):
Why when you had Firefox, I was like, Hey, what are you running? Cause that

Leo Laporte (01:41:10):
Looks exactly like edge that's hysterical. Okay, cool. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:41:14):
That, that's my confusion.

Leo Laporte (01:41:16):
That's fascinating. All right. So <laugh> as well. This is good. This is the set portion of show.

Paul Thurrott (01:41:22):
You show. There was nothing new in windows 11 before

Leo Laporte (01:41:25):
Paul helps me and I'm still I'm wait. I was gonna wait until after the show to reboot into into H 2 22 H two, but it's I think it's it's ready. Yeah, it says restart. Oh, it's ready. Oh, it's all ready, baby. Restart required. Ooh. Soon as we get the beer, I'm doing it. Nice. I'll have a beer and do it. Sweet. All. Let's start with the Mary Jo Foley enterprise pick of the week.

Mary Jo Foley (01:41:52):
Okay. I'm curious if Paul ever heard of this because I never had program called the windows customer connection program. You ever hear of that? No. Nope. Me neither. So it's a program via which Microsoft is trying to get. Well, right now, they're trying to get on board. It pros who wanna find out about Microsoft products before they're announced. So they put you under NDA, you can talk directly to the engineering team. You can get previews of things that are upcoming, that have to do with windows and apps that run on windows. And to qualify you fill out a form there in the show notes, I link to an article on this, but if you go to the insider blog, windows, insider blog, they've got a whole article about this. And it's kind of like the technology adoption program, which is something that big companies use when they wanna test windows releases and other products early. But this is, this is something for it pros. So I think a lot of the people who listen to windows weekly could qualify for this. If they wanted to, I, I would assume you could. It says it will give you access to exclusive virtual calls, focus, groups, surveys, team discussions, and private previews all about existing software also yet to be released software, you can engage directly with Microsoft's windows engineering teams that is building some of these products.

Leo Laporte (01:43:24):

Mary Jo Foley (01:43:26):
So I'm like, ah, I never even heard of this, but this, but the news is they're expanding this to now include it pros. So if you're somebody who doesn't mind signing, signing a probably pretty broad NDA with the windows team and you are not necessarily an MVP, but you could be an MVP and you want this kind of access directly to the team and, and these kinds of calls you might wanna see if you qualify and, and fill out the form and see if you get in.

Leo Laporte (01:43:53):

Mary Jo Foley (01:43:54):

Leo Laporte (01:43:55):
Cool. The customer connection. Interesting through agree.

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:00):
Hmm. I know, I know we couldn't get in as journalists. Right. But <laugh>,

Leo Laporte (01:44:04):
And, and just every day people off the street either. Yeah, yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:08):
No, no.

Leo Laporte (01:44:09):
Yeah. You need to be, you need to have a contact at Microsoft or something

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:13):
Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:44:15):
Yeah. Enterprise pick number two.

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:18):
Right? So it's finally the day, next week, June 15th, we've heard about this day for so long. This is the day Microsoft ceases support for many versions of I E 11 on the desktop.

Leo Laporte (01:44:31):

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:32):
I know it's been so long in coming. It feels like, oh, it's finally happening. Yep. June 15th, 2022. So you can't say this is the retirement of I E 11. You can't just make that blanket statement because there are still some things connected with I E 11 that will continue to be supported after that date. So it does not affect you if you're on windows 10 long term servicing channel. So you're not affected by it. If you are on server, internet Explorer, 11 desktop apps. And if you use anything that's built using the Trident rendering engine, which is the heart of I E 11, that also doesn't affect you. But it's basically I E 11 on all the windows, 10 client skews windows 10 O T. So yeah, this is finally happening and they're moving away from I E officially next week.

Leo Laporte (01:45:27):
<Laugh> Okie dokey.

Mary Jo Foley (01:45:28):
It's a day to no, a day to remember

Leo Laporte (01:45:31):
A day that will live in infamy

Mary Jo Foley (01:45:34):

Leo Laporte (01:45:35):
<Laugh> no, it, won't not really. It'll, it'll live in joy and wonder yes, yes.

Mary Jo Foley (01:45:41):

Leo Laporte (01:45:42):
In fact so much so that I feel like I should have a Tiki style sour. D I P a

Mary Jo Foley (01:45:47):
<Laugh> excellent.

Leo Laporte (01:45:48):
Wouldn't that be good right about now, right?

Mary Jo Foley (01:45:50):
It would, it would. So sometimes beer craft beers are made to taste like wines. Sometimes they're made to taste like cocktails. Oh, the pick of the week is a cocktail type beer it's from Hudson valley brewing in the New York area. But there are a lot of people who do this style. So they made a sour IPA tastes mostly like a sour beer, not like an IPA. And they made it to emulate a Tiki style cocktail. What do I mean, they made it with pineapple. Okay. My puree that's

Leo Laporte (01:46:23):
The key. Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (01:46:25):
Black strap, molasses to give it that little sweetness. There's milk, sugar. And there's also almonds, which is a very interesting and odd addition when I saw the list of ingredients on this. I'm like, this is gonna be either terrible or very interesting. And it actually is very interesting. It's good. It, when you, if you just pour it into a glass and gave it to me and said, what do you think this is? I would've said a cocktail. Not a beer. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:46:47):
When they say ticky style, they're talking like a MYI or a,

Mary Jo Foley (01:46:50):
Yeah, exactly. Pina

Leo Laporte (01:46:52):

Mary Jo Foley (01:46:52):
Or der. Right. If you had a little piece of a little wedge of pineapple sticking out of big glass, you would not be AIS.

Leo Laporte (01:46:57):
Sounds good. I like it.

Mary Jo Foley (01:46:58):
No, no. So this is from Hudson valley, like I said, but a lot of other beer brewers are doing this kind of thing where they're making a sour beer, but it tastes more like a cocktail than a beer. So if you're somebody a little on the fence about the whole craft beer thing, give it a try.

Leo Laporte (01:47:14):
Nice. Hmm. Yeah. Demi urge Hudson valley brewer.

Mary Jo Foley (01:47:18):
Demi urge. Yeah. I didn't say the name. Demi urge is their

Leo Laporte (01:47:22):

Paul Thurrott (01:47:22):
Demi like like a partial, like 

Leo Laporte (01:47:26):
Demi urge means something. I'm trying to remember what it means. I have to look it up. Oh, does it really? Yeah. That's a word.

Paul Thurrott (01:47:30):
Then we use that. I invented the phrase de SCO.

Leo Laporte (01:47:33):
It's a being responsible for the creation of the universe. Oh, platonic Neo and middle platonic and Neo platonic schools of philosophy. The Demi urge is an artisan like figure that's what's on the C can, by the way. That's the Demi urge. Yes. Yes. Responsible for fashioning and maintaining the physical universe. It's a, it's a term from agnostics. Wow. Hmm. Wow. Yes. Deur that's a serious beer.

Paul Thurrott (01:48:04):
I have a Demi. No Demi urge to <laugh> have a

Leo Laporte (01:48:08):
Drink. Yeah. The creator God of the old Testament. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:48:15):
I have never heard that term.

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:17):
Neither have I? Yeah. Except on the beer camp. I think

Paul Thurrott (01:48:19):
You made it up.

Leo Laporte (01:48:21):
No big dogs. Wow. There you go. How does it happen? Such a great show and already it's over

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:30):

Leo Laporte (01:48:31):
Mm, wow. Paul

Paul Thurrott (01:48:34):
Thra scans two and a half hours

Leo Laporte (01:48:35):
Later, scant two and a half hours later. No, it was only a two hours, less than a two hours show. Oh, that's true. It was a nice short, brief taste of goodness. And we thank Paul and, and Mary Jo for that, a little skosh little Demi urge of goodness. Paul Thras books When is when am I gonna get the field guy for windows 11

Paul Thurrott (01:48:57):
As is happening soon. Leo. I think I, I figured out already the format

Mary Jo Foley (01:49:01):
Soon. TM. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:49:03):
It's gonna be tied to the 22 H two. I can say that.

Leo Laporte (01:49:06):
Is it gonna be called windows 11 forever? <Laugh> no, no, it's

Paul Thurrott (01:49:11):
Gonna, it's very temporary.

Leo Laporte (01:49:14):

Mary Jo Foley (01:49:14):
11, Demi

Leo Laporte (01:49:16):
Demi. He is, he is the Demi

Paul Thurrott (01:49:19):
I a Demi yard to upgrade to.

Leo Laporte (01:49:21):
Oh, I got an urge. I give you an urge that is lean for the windows 10 field guy. And soon the windows 11 field guide. Paul is also of That's where you can go to find all the goodness he talks about, including that, upgrade the look and feel of edge that he just mentioned. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so do think that that's 22 H two required or no,

Paul Thurrott (01:49:43):
I think sometime in 1 0 3, 1 0 4 timeframe, they was gonna make

Leo Laporte (01:49:47):
Us the default. I think that's

Paul Thurrott (01:49:49):
How it's gonna go. So it's in stable now, but it's not enabled by default. They'll probably enable it. Yeah, sometimes.

Leo Laporte (01:49:54):
So Mary Jo Foley writes for ZD net. Her blog We bring 'em together. Every Wednesday, run 11:00 AM Pacific 2:00 PM, Eastern 1800 UTC to do this little thing, we call windows weekly. Now you can do watch it in a couple different ways. There's audio and video, audio and video live streams are available, So if you're around at 11:00 AM Pacific on Wednesdays, you know, you just watch this happen as it happens, be get the freshest version of it. And people who are around live, like to chat with us in the chat room, that's at Of course, if you're a remember club TWiT, you can also go to the discord server that we run for club TWiT club TWiTs. I, I should mention that it's seven bucks a month, but you get some real benefits chiefly that there are ad free versions of all the shows and you get a custom URL just for you.

Leo Laporte (01:50:51):
That is ad free versions of all the shows. You don't even hear this, the plug for, obviously you're already a member for a club TWiT. You get access to the discord, which is a great community. Lots of benefits. I mentioned, we have our own Minecraft servers. We also have the untitled Linux show Stacy's book club. That's coming up in about eight days. We're gonna be doing Neil Stevenson's termination shock. I'm gonna host that one cuz I am. I love this book. It's a great book. I must Neil Stevenson fanatic. We also have asked me anything coming up with Alex Lindsay. We have a fireside chat with all the members coming up at Pruitt's our community manager. There does a great job and there's a TWiT plus feed. Where for instance, since I forgot to press record, when I was talking about my new Dell laptop before the show, that'll probably end up in the TWiTt plus feed.

Leo Laporte (01:51:39):
That's all the stuff that didn't make it into podcasts, all of that seven bucks a month. I think it's a great deal. And it sure helps us smooth out the bumps if it will, if you will in monetization go to TWiTt, and there's more to come by the way, lots more to come in the, in the club. We're really, we're really doing some interesting stuff. After the fact of course you can still get free versions of the show. It's a slash WW. There's a windows weekly YouTube channel with all the shows. You can watch the videos there. That's a good one for sharing highlights. You can just clip with highlight and send that out. But the easiest thing might be to get a podcast player and subscribe. And if you subscribe, you'll get it automatically the every day every week when it's available, incidentally, if you would leave us a five star review, I could I could make sure that Paul Thra, you

Paul Thurrott (01:52:31):
Know, are you trying to cover

Leo Laporte (01:52:33):
Favor? <Laugh> he said, I will make sure Paul adds you to his evening prayers every night. Nice. And I'd like to thank Joe and Sally for the five star review. Paul, Mary, Jo. Wonderful to have you, are you going to Mexico soon? Paul?

Paul Thurrott (01:52:53):
No, but my wife is with my dog really?

Leo Laporte (01:52:56):
Oh, see, see the benefit of this, the whole family.

Paul Thurrott (01:53:00):
I get to walk the dog and clean up the dog mess. Yeah. It's

Leo Laporte (01:53:03):
Huge. How long are they gonna be gone?

Paul Thurrott (01:53:06):
Just a week.

Leo Laporte (01:53:06):
Oh, well it's not that bad bull.

Paul Thurrott (01:53:09):
Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm not gonna go until we get back. Okay. From the cruise.

Leo Laporte (01:53:14):
Oh, that's exciting. I don't know if we're still, we still have births available, but you might check If you suddenly say, you know what I want go to Alaska with Paul and Stephanie and Leo and Steve Lisa and, and rich Campbell and all those other great people are going, Brad Sams. Who's going not Brad. 

Paul Thurrott (01:53:33):
Not Rafael,

Leo Laporte (01:53:33):
Brad, Rafael. I always believe HES Rafael. Remember <laugh> and I will bring the devils.

Paul Thurrott (01:53:37):
I'm so happy to hear you say that.

Leo Laporte (01:53:39):
Yeah, it's it, it may be too late. It may not be too late, but we'd love to see you. That's July 16th, the 23rd in beautiful Alaska should be a lot of fun. And if it goes well, well, I, which I think it's, it is so far disaster has yet to strike. We might do it again. Next

Paul Thurrott (01:53:56):
Year. I mean, I don't know of a lot of disasters at sea, so what could go wrong?

Leo Laporte (01:54:00):
What could possibly go wrong? <Laugh> now don't say that Paul you're gonna scare people off. There is not, Paul's never, never done this before. When you, when you get off this boat, Paul, there, you could go one or two ways and I've seen it happen to both. Some people go, I will never, there is something I will never do again.

Paul Thurrott (01:54:18):
Right, right.

Leo Laporte (01:54:20):
In fact, there's a whole book, a whole article about the <laugh> one, supposedly fun thing I will never do again. <Laugh> then there's the other camp of which Lisa I are members and you know, Mary Jo, you liked your riverboat right in Vietnam. That was cool. Oh yeah. That was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. There are those who get off and go, can I get back on again now? <Laugh> like, I don't want us to end. Yeah. And I, I, I

Paul Thurrott (01:54:45):
Thought it's definitely cruise. This is the one cruise I always said I wanted to do good. Good. I'm not like a Caribbean cruise kind of person, but I can pitch you doing like a riverboat in Europe kind of thing.

Leo Laporte (01:54:54):
Those are so great. You know, maybe we'll do that next time. Yeah. Lisa and I are gonna do that for Christmas 20, 23. We're going nice, nice to have new year's Eve in Vienna, the Dan, the Dan mm-hmm <affirmative> the blue Dan. So I think a lot of people do this and go, Hey, that was really great. That was really fun. So I'm hoping that you two will be in the latter group anyway. Thank you, Paul. Thank you. And Mary Jo, you know, next time, if we do it again, we gotta take you too. Uhoh but we'll do something you wanna do. I think, you know, we'll do, I think a riverboat would be fun. I love river boat crus. It very re river cruise thing would wouldn't that be great? We did this cuz it's less expensive. We wanna make it available to as many people as possible. Yeah. It's a, you know, it's kind of a fancy thing to do.

Paul Thurrott (01:55:38):
Leo. We have fans in Europe and saying, you know,

Leo Laporte (01:55:41):
Good point, <laugh> saying good point, Paul throt Mary Jo Foley have a wonderful week. We'll see you next time on windows, weekly byebye.


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