Windows Weekly Episode 776 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word.
Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for windows weekly. Paul Thora and Mary Jo Foley are here. The magic window has closed. Paul and Mary Jo will explain what that means. The one outlook client has leaked. Both of them have first looks. It's not all it's cracked up to be. And Intel adds a new 12th generation processor to the series. What's it for? We'll find out next on windows, weekly Podcasts you love

TWiT Intro (00:00:27):
From people. You trust

Leo Laporte (00:00:30):

Leo Laporte (00:00:37):
This is windows weekly with Paul Thra and Mary Jo Foley episode 776 recorded Wednesday May 11th, 2022. The outlooks oblique windows weekly is brought to you by new vey. Say goodbye to abandoned carts, poor approval rates and high chargebacks. With new vey, the platform fast forwarding to the next generation of payments. Turn payments into powerful accelerators for your and by JumpCloud your complete platform for identity access and device management, work smarter, not harder by securing SSO MDM, MFA and more from one paint of glass fully evaluate JumpCloud free today at and help your organization move to a modern secure hybrid work model. And by new Relic that next middle of the night call is just waiting to happen. Get new Relic before it does, and you can get access to the whole new Relic platform and 100 gigabytes of data free per month. Forever. No credit card required. Sign up at new It's time for windows weekly. The show we cover the latest news from Mike Rose soft joining us all the way from his new domicile, somewhere south of the border. Paul Thra,

Paul Thurrott (00:02:03):
At least from the Hilton <laugh> well for the, I don't, I don't know internet access, the

Leo Laporte (00:02:08):
Hilton we call it. Sure. The Mexico city Hilton Paul Thurrott. Welcome. Good to see you glad it's all working out down there. That's exciting. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:20):
Thanks me too.

Leo Laporte (00:02:22):
New, new house. It's new home.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:24):
Been a trial.

Leo Laporte (00:02:25):
Yeah. Well, anything worth doing is, you know, gonna be hard to do,

Paul Thurrott (00:02:30):
You know, but we had, so our flight was diverted at the last second from Mexico city to Toluca.

Leo Laporte (00:02:35):
I saw you were Toluca. I thought that's odd.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:38):
Yeah. So we didn't get in that night until one o'clock in the morning. And of course we had a meeting first thing to, so yeah, we just reached a point where I sort of said to Stephanie, like, you know, maybe God's trying to tell us something.

Leo Laporte (00:02:50):
No, Nope, Nope. Persevere. <laugh> you're living the dream. Mr. Thau living the dream. Also joining us from ZD net all about Mary Jo Foley. No longer on jury duty. <Laugh> yay. We missed you last.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:08):
He was blamed absence from last week. Paul

Leo Laporte (00:03:09):
And I were batching it. It was a little weird.

Mary Jo Foley (00:03:12):
I heard there was some mayhem. That's what I heard

Leo Laporte (00:03:14):
May sued. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:03:16):
There, there was a, there were like 13 Xbox stories. Somehow. It was like <laugh>. It was like the universe knew

Leo Laporte (00:03:22):
<Laugh> now my friends it's time and we are starting a little late for those of you who watched live because of Google just had its Google IO keynote, which was, geez,

Paul Thurrott (00:03:34):
My God was two hours

Leo Laporte (00:03:35):
Long, two hours and nothing long, by the way. That

Paul Thurrott (00:03:38):
Was really, you didn't think, oh, that's interesting. I was actually impressed by some of that,

Leo Laporte (00:03:42):
You know, I have learned having watched a number of Google IO, keynotes, not to be impressed by demos that may

Paul Thurrott (00:03:48):
Or may not. Well, especially stuff that's coming in the future, right? Yeah. Like, you

Leo Laporte (00:03:51):
Know, like everything like the phone, isn't gonna be the six a won't be available to July 21st or pre-order the pixel buds pro July 21st. Pre-Order delivered June 20, July 28th. And then they talked about the watch, which we had was widely rumored mm-hmm <affirmative> not till this fall with the pixel seven. Yep. And then, oh yeah, we're gonna do a tablet sometime next year. And then everything else was just kind of like, oh and everything apple can do. Yeah. We can do that too. Now <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:04:20):
There was a lot of that. I, I, I thought the glasses was interesting as kind of a, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:04:25):
That was totally speculative. I mean, that was like, yeah. You know, nobody

Mary Jo Foley (00:04:29):
Even guessed that, did they? No. Was, did anybody create,

Leo Laporte (00:04:32):
Well, I was surprised they didn't talk about AR sooner. Yeah. Right. And they had some,

Mary Jo Foley (00:04:37):
They kind of indirectly did. Right? Like they like stuff with the maps, like with the film,

Leo Laporte (00:04:42):
They had a cool thing where you could take the phone and you kind of scan a candy bar aisle and find the best of the candy bars. And that's clearly an AR thing

Paul Thurrott (00:04:52):
Or scan an item and say, here you buy the part or whatever. I thought that was kind of cool.

Leo Laporte (00:04:56):
Yeah. Well, we'll see when they release it, I've just, I've been burned before.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:00):
That's well, you've been around, you've

Leo Laporte (00:05:01):
Been around way too much. I'm turning cynical in my old age. I am so forget about that. Cuz Microsoft has real world products out. We'll safe. That's right.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:12):
We saw mistakes are out the open there.

Leo Laporte (00:05:16):
Yeah. Yeah. I think I have to think that maybe some of this was supply chain holding Google back a little bit. They might want to get this stuff out.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:26):
So yeah, that could be, yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:27):
I saw people predicting, like if, if they don't want anyone to leak it, so they're leaking at themselves. I'm like, I don't think that's what's happening, but okay. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:05:34):
Who knows, who

Mary Jo Foley (00:05:35):

Paul Thurrott (00:05:36):
Honestly, getting ahead of it a little bit is horrible. I, I, in the sense that Google is the antithesis of apple and yet like Leah said tends to copy them a lot. Yeah. You're doing things in a different way than apple because apple actually their exceptions now. But for the most part, they don't like to pre-announce anything. Right. It, it, it kind of differentiates them from yeah. That my competitor. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:05:57):
And then the other, you know, Google's a great, a great going great lengths to say, you can trust us. You can trust us really. You can trust us. Yes. And I don't, you know, I was thinking about you, Paul, and you know, your disdain from Gmail man and all that. I was just wondering, you know, how you felt about that because I think most people think of Google as an ad company and don't yeah. Pretty clear. The guest, Google wants more information about you.

Paul Thurrott (00:06:21):
If I could communicate anything to Google and I I've had this, I've, I've had this exact thought watching IO in the past sun Pia gets up and talks about how trustworthy the company is and how wonderful they're and how, you know, they're here for humanity and everything. And I, they do good things for sure. I mean, you know, they do some of the stuff

Leo Laporte (00:06:42):
They do. They're smart is incredible. Computer sciences, by the way, early on, they mention a difficult computer science problem. I said, wait a minute, that's trademark Microsoft. You can't say that

Paul Thurrott (00:06:50):
Except they'll actually solve it. They'll solve it. So I feel like they, that's a little tone deaf. Like they, they're not reading the room very well. Right. I that rub they're reading, cuz those are all Google employees or whatever. But I on the world, I, I think there's an understanding even the general populace, like go the stuff they do is amazing. We, we love maps. We have to use that, you know, whatever Google's products and services, but trust you gotta, I think you need to work on it.

Leo Laporte (00:07:15):
There's a certain

Paul Thurrott (00:07:16):
Wary. I'm saying they're not trustworthy. Exactly. I don't really know for sure, but I mean, I have my own, you're just wary and concerns.

Leo Laporte (00:07:21):
Right. We're wary, we're suspicious because we know that that's how they make their money. And when they say they're we sell information to third parties and in the back of your mind, you go, yeah. But you have it yourself. So

Paul Thurrott (00:07:36):
I, I we all have those experiences where you have a conversation with someone else and then all of a sudden that product appears everywhere and adds or whatever. Yeah. Very suspicious. I have other more explicit examples recently, where for example, I tried to find, I wanted to find the year that I had gone to Washington DC as a child and I could, it was 1981 or two or something and I searched Google photos. I found it was 1983, actually. It was later than I thought. And my smarts displayed in my kitchen will not stop showing me photos from Washington, DC

Leo Laporte (00:08:04):
Will not do well. We know you wanted those Paul <laugh>. We know

Paul Thurrott (00:08:07):
That. Yeah. I just, I was just, I was just looking for something here, guys. Okay. I wasn't trying to, you know, change the, the math on this or whatever, but you know, half

Leo Laporte (00:08:16):
Smart is worse is worse than dumb.

Paul Thurrott (00:08:18):
Yeah. And too smart is maybe worse than anything. Yeah. Cuz I feel like they're almost too smart and I think people are leery or suspicious of that. That's right. Like they're that's right. They're so smart. It seems like magic

Leo Laporte (00:08:31):
<Laugh> and I don't know what Google does to solve this. I mean, this is, you know, it's an issue for them and I don't know what they do to solve it, but yeah. Yep. All right. Enough about Google. We're not here to talk about Google. We're here to talk about windows 11. Yeah. The magic window has slammed shut. Oh yes it did today.

Paul Thurrott (00:08:48):
And by the way, <laugh> just real quick. We did, we had never had a chance to talk about it. The magic window they warned last Friday. Couldn't shut any time. Now they released a build after two or three weeks of not doing it on the right day on Wednesday and the magic window is shut <laugh> so we never even had a chance to warn you.

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:06):

Paul Thurrott (00:09:06):
What is the magic window?

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:08):
Yeah. So the magic window means you no longer can easily move from dev to beta. It's a little more the windows insider complicated in the insider program. Right? So today, like for a while we've been getting the same build, going to the dev channel and the beta channel like past few builds today. There's one build for the dev channel. There's one for the beta channel. The dev channel one is already up to 25, 11 5, and the beta is 22, 6 21. So they're on totally different paths now going in different directions. If you want, if you wanna see what is likely going to be the feature update later this year, 22 H two, you wanna be on the beta channel. You do not wanna be on the dev channel anymore. Right. And yep. I, I saw some people on TWITtter going. They didn't warn us. I feel like they kind of warned people, but not, they didn't say it's gonna happen this no, they right.

Paul Thurrott (00:10:03):
They didn't say it was gonna happen this week. But that I felt that was implicit. In fact, when I wrote up the build from last week, I literally wrote, look, they warned about this. So as soon as next week, this could happen. I wish they were a little more explicit. But remember last summer they did the same thing and they never told anyone this was coming right. And a lot of people were really upset about this. So at least they, you know, they,

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:25):

Paul Thurrott (00:10:25):
It could happen.

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:25):
They did. So if you're on the beta channel build, now that came out today, you didn't get any new features. You just got more fixes that's what's gonna happen going forward. Right. It's gonna be very, very incremental because you're marching towards the feature update later in

Paul Thurrott (00:10:39):
Here. I wanna ask you about that. So I'm curious of your opinion on this. So obviously when they split the beta in the dev like this, the indication is that feature pack one or whatever, or 22 H two is kind of done, right? I mean the, you know, kind of, it's only may, but it's kind of done, right. So is that what this, I mean, have we literally seen what this thing is? Like, are we, is this it? Yeah, pretty much. I know it sounds like a way thing to say, but

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:04):
Yeah. So, you know, what's confusing is they, they're all, they're hyping people up about, we have one feature update a year, that's it? That's not technically really what's happening. Right. We've seen, they are rolling out new features outside of the feature update. So, you know, I saw people asking about tabs and file explorers, like, so does that mean tabs and file explorers? Not coming this year. It doesn't mean that right. They could take that feature and just make it part of a cumulative update and say, no, you didn't have to wait for the feature update here it is. Right. So I feel like the RTM thing is even less meaningful anymore than it was. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:11:38):
<Laugh> okay. Yeah. That's that's a good point. Yeah. I'm just, I, I wish well that's, I think every thought I have about this group is always the same. I wish they communicated better. You know, I wish there was some sense of transparency and clarity. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:11:51):
I know somebody,

Leo Laporte (00:11:53):
Some of it, a radio show last week and said he'd been, willynilly moved a ring or something. Is that possible

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:02):
By Microsoft down

Leo Laporte (00:12:03):
Or ring? Well, like he was suddenly getting daily updates. Yeah. Is that part of this oh,

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:09):
Daily updates?

Leo Laporte (00:12:10):

Paul Thurrott (00:12:11):
No. It's once a week at most, I would say. Okay. So I,

Leo Laporte (00:12:14):
The most part, I didn't know what, maybe he didn't know what was going on either.

Paul Thurrott (00:12:16):
Well but for some number of weeks, I don't remember when this started beta and dev were on the same, getting the

Leo Laporte (00:12:24):
Same deal. I think that's what it was beta I dev were the same is what he was.

Paul Thurrott (00:12:27):
So I, I mean, I, I don't know that people have ever been pushed from beta to dev, right?

Leo Laporte (00:12:32):

Paul Thurrott (00:12:32):
I automatically, I never heard that.

Leo Laporte (00:12:34):
No, so maybe it was just an overlap. Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:37):
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, but here's the in more interesting thing, there is one new feature in the dev build that came out today. That's a pretty interesting feature, right? It's called suggested, suggested actions. And this is how it works. Say you copy and paste a phone number in windows 11. A little prompt will come up on your screen and say, do you wanna call that number now with teams? And they're

Paul Thurrott (00:13:04):
Just remind you of anything by the way,

Leo Laporte (00:13:06):
Let be

Paul Thurrott (00:13:07):
Like smart tags.

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:09):
Yeah. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:10):
Remember they were

Leo Laporte (00:13:11):
Tags call, would you like me to help?

Paul Thurrott (00:13:13):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh, you also sense? Yeah. If only had a little clip, like, like a, like a Clipy icon next to it.

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:20):
Yeah. Yeah. You know what I wanna know though? How is that, how what's enabling that to work? My guess is the Microsoft graph is what's making that work. But I don't know exactly like how is it doing that? Right. So say, say you copy and paste a date, you'll get a prompt and say, would you like to create a calendar item for this and make it into a calendar item? So what's letting it know that the thing you're cutting and pasting is something that could have an action attached to it.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:51):
So, yeah, I think you're, so it <laugh> a lot of times now we call things, AI, you know, spell checking is AI grammar. Checking is AI. It's more likely, this is a table of you know, matching, you know, matches. And it does, and certain actions and applications, I guess, or services that can yeah. Perform that some action against that thing that you've selected. Right. I I'm

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:13):
Sure. And you might

Paul Thurrott (00:14:14):
Have describe it as AI

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:15):
Or in the past we might have said Cortana. Right. <laugh> like that would've been, yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:14:19):
No, I, but I think that would've worked the same way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, cuz it seems, you know, I, I just think of it as pattern matching. I, I, yeah. I don't know. I don't know how that's the dunno how they implemented it. Probably. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:32):
Yeah. They didn't explain how they implemented it, but now that you know, that features in the dev channel, so what it means to be in the dev channel is this is a feature that may or may not ever ship at. I am windows 11 at some time. That's all it means. Right. So right. Maybe it'll be there. Maybe it won't. But yeah, it's still kinda interesting.

Paul Thurrott (00:14:50):
It's fine. If you it's, it's similar to you know, we have this notion of like the clipboard obviously and clipboard clipboard could contain anything and the windows 10 and 11, right. You can actually turn on an option. We have multiple clipboard items and that's kind of neat, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative> in windows eight, they had that notion of contracts and sharing. Remember you could, yeah, I have, I have some things selected and I can, you know, it, it was kind of the same sort of thing. You would bring up an interface and it would say, well, here are the things that have registered to do something with that thing you selected. Right. It's probably just a, a modern, it could just be for that.

Mary Jo Foley (00:15:24):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. So if you, I, there was also a little loophole, which I forgot about. If, if you accidentally get moved to the dev channel, you don't wanna be on the dev channel. You have 10 days, I guess, guess to undo that. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:15:40):
Oh see, I wish I'd known that I could have told that kind of yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:15:42):
Undo. So another, what you're saying is if you undo what, like if you install the build and go back,

Mary Jo Foley (00:15:47):
If you install, today's build and you're like, oh wait, I didn't wanna be on dev channel. I wanna be on beta channel. You can roll back. Okay. Within 10 days or if Microsoft, then once you is another build. Yeah. Then you can move. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:16:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So this is similar to the rollback capability. They have just a stable right. Where you can do that kind of thing, going from 10 to 11 or whatever. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:16:10):
So don't panic if you

Leo Laporte (00:16:12):
Channel, but it didn't hit your fingers. So that's

Mary Jo Foley (00:16:14):
Good. Exactly. Exactly. You have a little weight

Paul Thurrott (00:16:16):
Of it hit your fingers, but now you can open it <laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:16:19):
You can lift it up a little bit and squeeze

Paul Thurrott (00:16:22):
Your fingers using the crushed remains of your fingers. Open the window.

Mary Jo Foley (00:16:25):

Leo Laporte (00:16:27):
Yeah. Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (00:16:29):

Paul Thurrott (00:16:29):

Leo Laporte (00:16:31):
I was surprised that Google today did not talk about this new thing they're doing with Fido. They referred to Pasky and that's it. Right. They

Paul Thurrott (00:16:40):

Leo Laporte (00:16:41):
Talk about it, but Microsoft, apple and Google are now working and, and Steve Gibson talked a lot about this yesterday. He was a little skeptical. He, he came

Paul Thurrott (00:16:52):
Steve Gibson skeptic,

Leo Laporte (00:16:53):

Mary Jo Foley (00:16:54):

Leo Laporte (00:16:55):
He, you know, he came to the same conclusion I did, which is, this is great. Cuz it's everybody, it's more secure than what most people do, but it's less secure than what you could do if you were gonna really do it. Right. But it doesn't mean you can't still use passwords or use a UBI key. It's just a, a passwordless standard that will be, you know, easy. Right. So people are more likely to use it. Yes.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:18):
This is for the Microsoft end, this is kind of a good news type of thing because Microsoft has done more to go password list than anybody else.

Leo Laporte (00:17:26):
I love what they do do with the authenticator, but it's only for Microsoft products right now. That's

Paul Thurrott (00:17:31):
The problem, right? Yep. You never have to type in a Microsoft account password ever, like ever. Yeah. And that would sounded like a Taylor swift song all of a sudden, but <laugh>, I don't know where that came from anyway, but that's possible. And you can remove your password from your Microsoft account today, if you want to, which is a rather incredible thing, which kind of highlights the unnecessary nature of it. I have also, and anyone who does uses these other devices has multiple examples. When you sign into any apple device, a Mac, an iPad, an iPhone, whatever into your Google account. If you use Chrome, how often you have to Reig in and how every single time you do that, you have to type in a password. You don't, you know, it's astonishing to me how often, you know, your phone will reboot and it will say, oh, you gotta sign in your type, your pin in for security. Right? No, the pin is not as secure as my biometric sign. That's crazy. Right? Yeah. I, I will never understand that. And, and Microsoft is the only one that gets this, right?

Leo Laporte (00:18:29):
Ironically, Google has single sign on, but only after you enter your password,

Paul Thurrott (00:18:34):
But you have to enter your

Leo Laporte (00:18:35):
Password. You have to your, then it'll do the, you know, push to

Paul Thurrott (00:18:38):
Fund it's still, but it will still ask you for it again in the future. That's what makes me crazy. Yeah. You know, with Microsoft. So if you're using some kind of an authenticator app, which you should be, right, or whatever, the pro you know, whatever two F a mechanism different funds have different ways of doing it. You will still have to do password for, from time to time with I never, I, it doesn't make any sense. Send me the code, you know, send me the thing. Like, I, I accept the code. It it's doing face ID or you know, whatever you have on on Android, it's biometric, it's safe, secure, it's you? I don't, I just don't get it. So these guys, I love that apple and Google signed onto this. I'm not surprised Microsoft did. They they've been, this is one area that I deal with on the client side, where Microsoft is so far ahead. It's not the only area by the way, but it's one big area where they're just so far ahead of these other platform makers,

Leo Laporte (00:19:26):
Bill. I feel like bill really far said, we've gotta get rid of the password. Remember passport there's things we're talking

Paul Thurrott (00:19:32):
On this for 20 years. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:19:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:19:34):

Paul Thurrott (00:19:35):
It's like the paperless future. We're gonna do it. Oh, are we someday? Because I just had to get a paper copy of a marriage certificate in 2022. <Laugh> like the paper is a thing and passwords are a thing. Right. But anyway, the fact that they're taking steps in this direction is great. Any progress on this is great because the, the reality is we live in a multi device, multi ecosystem kind of world. So use an iPhone or an Android device that everyone does. You just do, even if you use windows you're gonna deal with this baloney from time to time. So I'd like to see this I'm, I'm so glad. This is finally starting that,

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:07):
You know, you know, though, as a normal user, I feel like I've gotten jaded and my eyes kind of glaze over when I hear about this now, because I feel like I hear about it constantly like Microsoft. Oh yeah, no, don't use a password. How long have we heard that? And every time there's another announcement. I'm like, are they announcing again, not to use passwords? Like haven't we already got to that point. Well, I feel like it's hard to like break down the subtleties of what's happening along the path. You know, <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:20:33):
You missed this the last week, Mary Jo, cuz you were relaxing on a beach, whatever the nonsense was, you were going. But <laugh> there was a story

Leo Laporte (00:20:41):
C and by beach you mean courthouse and

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:43):
Yeah, <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:20:45):
Eating sandwiches out of bag. So I'm wearing masks. There was <laugh> get up announced last week, which is owned by Microsoft. They're gonna force people who you are contributors on the site to use two of a, I say that by the end of next year. <Laugh> right. Like so

Leo Laporte (00:21:00):
Slow. So

Paul Thurrott (00:21:02):
What, how about just enforcing that like right now, because if you're smart enough to contribute yeah. On GitHub.

Leo Laporte (00:21:08):
Yeah. You ought to be, you

Paul Thurrott (00:21:09):
Can figure out two. Yeah. And you must be using it everywhere. Already's a good point. Yeah. But it was some tiny percentage. I don't it was less than 50%. What? I don't remember the number was in fact using two, a with a GitHub account, it was

Leo Laporte (00:21:19):
Like 16%. It was crazy. Was it really? Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:21:21):
Okay. It was a small number. Yeah. Yeah. So really small. Yeah. You would think it would be like 85%. No,

Leo Laporte (00:21:25):
You would. That's true. Across the board though. The thing is the Microsoft solution, which is good, as I said, only works for Microsoft. Does I think my sense is that the goal is to make that kind of login with your Microsoft's authenticator with pat, with pat, with websites, with apps, with everything.

Paul Thurrott (00:21:45):
Yep. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> yep. That's what it should be.

Leo Laporte (00:21:47):
That's it would be great. Right? Yeah. And once you've

Paul Thurrott (00:21:50):
Authenticated the world of, you know, the world of identity theft and privacy concerns and blah, blah, blah, whatever this is brown zero, like your online accounts are the most important thing in the world to you. Well I'm sorry. Well, not, maybe not. You have kids or whatever, but you know, digitally. And is the, is the D the direction that hackers will go to steal your bank accounts, your money, you know, your livelihood, your actual identity this stuff needs to be protected. You need to it's, you need to be responsible as an individual to make sure your Amazon account, your apple account, your Microsoft, whatever it is, these things are tied to credit cards, purchase histories, your health data. It's so important for this stuff to be protected as much as it can be. So I, I mean, I think this stuff should all not just be available. I think it should be enforced a hundred percent across the board and it should be as secure as it could possibly be,

Leo Laporte (00:22:46):
But agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:22:48):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> step in the right direction.

Leo Laporte (00:22:49):
Yeah. We're doing something anyway. Yeah. Yep. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:22:57):

Leo Laporte (00:22:58):
Yeah. Here's the here's really exciting breaking news. <Laugh> you could go, you could buy a physical copy of windows 11.

Paul Thurrott (00:23:07):
So finally,

Leo Laporte (00:23:07):
Finally, is it on floppy?

Paul Thurrott (00:23:10):
What do you mean? This is what's gonna put adoption over the top. I'm so glad they did this. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:23:15):
I we, this is such an American thing. I wanna pay for the convenience of not having to take five minutes to do this myself. <Laugh>, you know? Yeah. Because there's no, there's no discs anymore. Right? There's like a, a CD is not gonna slide outta the box. It's a us V key. Anyone on earth. I don't just mean any well I'm exaggerating, but people listening to this podcast, obviously even normal people I, so to speak, if you will like mainstream normal non-technical people could make a USB butable USB setup. You know, it's not, this is, this is a wizard. It's not doesn't require command line codes or

Leo Laporte (00:23:52):
Microsoft is a site called windows media creation tool.

Paul Thurrott (00:23:55):
Yeah. Yeah. I bet if you typed in, I need to install windows 11 or something. Oh yeah. Plain English like that. It would, it would be go right to the site. It's very simple. So, okay. I guess, I don't know, is re is physical retail coming back? Is that a thing?

Leo Laporte (00:24:11):
Hey, but you get it in the box, the Microsoft labeled USB key, right?

Mary Jo Foley (00:24:15):

Paul Thurrott (00:24:16):
Yes you do.

Leo Laporte (00:24:17):
Do you get a serial number?

Mary Jo Foley (00:24:19):

Paul Thurrott (00:24:20):
Yes, you do.

Leo Laporte (00:24:23):
Which you will never need again.

Paul Thurrott (00:24:26):
Yep. Yep.

Leo Laporte (00:24:26):

Paul Thurrott (00:24:27):
I mean, you kind of don't need it now. I mean, I'm not saying you don't have to buy windows, but I mean, you know, if, if you tried to use this thing without a key yeah. It would say, Hey probably wanna buy this thing, right? Yeah. It would happen there. You know, you don't you're you're actually, is it easier to type in a key or is it easier just to make this purchase electronically and have it happen automatically? Yeah, I don't know.

Leo Laporte (00:24:49):
I dunno. It must have something associated

Paul Thurrott (00:24:50):
With your Microsoft

Leo Laporte (00:24:51):
It's you know, like everything else, it's something to do with business. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> like,

Paul Thurrott (00:24:56):
I don't know what it has to do with, because I don't understand. So this thing shipped last October without any physical keys, pre-made physical keys. I, I feel like I kind of proved we didn't need 'em <laugh> you know, I don't know. Was there a midnight event I missed in October? Were we Showing up at best buys at midnight and buy things like

Leo Laporte (00:25:15):

Mary Jo Foley (00:25:16):
I think they just wanted to put the pretty ribbon on a box. That's what I think.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:20):
Yeah. Oh, that's it. Okay. It's pretty. I don't mind that it exist. I just think it's weird. They didn't do this last year. So why I'd be like, what are you doing? Like

Mary Jo Foley (00:25:29):
What? Yeah. That the timing is very odd. Right? Why now? Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:32):
Yeah. I thought it was weird. It's okay. It, it doesn't hurt anything,

Mary Jo Foley (00:25:36):
Huh? Yeah. I saw some people saying maybe it's because they're about to make the upgrade, not free. I'm like, oh guys, they want you to upgrade. It's gonna stay free. <Laugh> don't worry. Yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:25:48):
Yeah. Finally in our windows 11 segment, Microsoft updating the apps by bit, and what's the latest

Paul Thurrott (00:25:57):
One pixel by pixel <laugh>. So if you're fan of rounded corners and stuff like that, then you don't care too much about quality. Microsoft is updated apps, like paint photos, sniping tool, media player, which God help you. If you need that clock and calculator. Right. The one thing they've done a pretty good job about, I would say is notepad.

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:21):
You know, thank you.

Paul Thurrott (00:26:22):

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:22):
I'm like, wait, you didn't mention notepad. Where is it? <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:26:26):
Because I was trying to differentiate that from all the absolute terrible <laugh>. Okay. So pain pain is a disaster. The thing they did to paint is terrible. Yeah. I also feel like there are these high level apps that are maybe a little more important than this stuff, like mail and calendar and stuff, and we'll get to that. But but they're really focusing on these kind of minor apps for the most part. There is an app in windows 10 and one 11 actually called voice recorder. And you can tell the new one's completely different because now it's called sound recorder. See <laugh> the next version will be called noise recorder. <Laugh> I don't know. And it has a few new features. I mean, it's visually updated of course, as a new visualization. And you can record, you can change the recording device and file format directly from within the app previously you or today actually you have to go to the settings app to do that. So yeah. You know, okay. Are a lot of people using the voice recorder, app and windows today. I mean, every platform has a voice recorded type of

Leo Laporte (00:27:24):
It's like, you just gotta have to have one,

Paul Thurrott (00:27:26):
You could buy a new microphone and like, I need to test it. What can I use type in recorder? Oh, there it is. Oh yeah. It works. I don't know.

Leo Laporte (00:27:33):

Paul Thurrott (00:27:34):
Not a big deal, but anyway, they were, they, they seem to think this was such a milestone that they would iterate through every single app they've updated in windows 11, since it launched last October, which is another thing, these things all should have been part of it. Yeah. You know, when it launched on day one, but we do things differently. Now. I guess we dribble out updates, you know,

Leo Laporte (00:27:54):
We do.

Paul Thurrott (00:27:55):
It's like you have Nova can and you can't keep it in your mouth or something. I don't know. I don't know what they're

Leo Laporte (00:27:59):
Doing. It's to keep the excitement going. That's it?

Paul Thurrott (00:28:02):
The occupation,

Leo Laporte (00:28:03):
The hype cycle, the hype cycle cycle has to continue hype man. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:28:06):
The hype cycle.

Leo Laporte (00:28:08):
It's all about

Paul Thurrott (00:28:09):
The hype cycle. God, it's this look at on the, me the themes on TWITtter. What are the news themes? It's like, you know, Ukraine, C windows, 11 apps

Leo Laporte (00:28:17):

Paul Thurrott (00:28:18):
Kind of go from there. Yeah. You know, the Royal family, the

Leo Laporte (00:28:20):
Big, the big ones. Yep. Yep. All right. Let me take a, a little timeout, little pause for our station identification on the windows weekly broadcast network. And then we will come back

Leo Laporte (00:28:34):
And we'll talk about, and I know this is exciting for you all Microsoft 365. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but first a word from our sponsor Nuva tomorrow's payment platform designed to accelerate your business. If your payment providers holding your business back new A's next generation payment technology, not only boost conversions reduces fraud and increases approval rates, but it works seamlessly with your existing tech stack. In fact, it's just, it's so simple. It's just a single API integration to connect to all the new vague goodness with Nova's agile platform, your business will also be allowed to add new payment methods, enter more markets, meet evolving customer demands. So you can stay ahead of the curve. All the easiest pie Novey offers more than 550 alternative payment methods, including of course, yes, cryptocurrencies and local payment solutions. And over 150 currencies around the world, Novey offers local acquiring in 46 countries, more than 200 global markets.

Leo Laporte (00:29:43):
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Mary Jo Foley (00:31:15):
On, how did you know? I

Leo Laporte (00:31:15):
Don't know. I just kinda had a feeling Microsoft 365 slash it.

Mary Jo Foley (00:31:23):
Yes. So Microsoft this week published many, but not all of the sessions that are gonna be held at build later this month. And so of course, one of the first searches one would do is for the word metaverse and yes, there are going to be sessions about the metaverse. There's gonna be one that looks like a keynote called preparing for the metaverse. And when you look at this session, it's it kind of echoes what Microsoft announced last year at build, when they talked about their idea of the Microsoft metaverse so, you know, everyone else, when you think metaverse, you're thinking like what Meadow's talking about, you know, like, and Microsoft, to some extent too, with avatars these new fake shared environments where your legless avatars can have a party in a little news space. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:32:15):
Some party without leg.

Mary Jo Foley (00:32:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what Microsoft really cares about unsurprisingly is the enterprise part of the equation, right? So the Microsoft metaverse, they they've said they think there are multiple metaverses and there's one they've started calling the industrial metaverse right. So the industrial metaverse, when you look at what's in that stack, it's all the Microsoft enterprise products that they're kind of pitching as being applicable to the metaverse. So stuff like IOTs and their digital TWITns, which I think is legitimately in there, you know, the idea that you have a digital model of a real world asset, Azure maps, just like Google just showed at IO, like there's a way to make maps more friendly to three dimensional environments. Even products like synapse analytics, they say is part of this and Azure AI autonomous systems work they're doing. So I, I did a post just to remind people when they hear Microsoft's pitch for the metaverse, it's not just going to be this teams for mesh thing that we've saw last year which is very glitzy and very 3d. It's also gonna be all this more applied, more enterprisey, more industrial kind of stuff that they also think about as the metaverse

Mary Jo Foley (00:33:35):
So, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:33:36):
<Laugh> wow.

Mary Jo Foley (00:33:37):

Leo Laporte (00:33:38):
Know industrial metaverse there's are two

Mary Jo Foley (00:33:40):
Words. Yeah. It doesn't sound exciting. I

Leo Laporte (00:33:42):
Really didn't want to hear to get,

Mary Jo Foley (00:33:43):
But you know what? Yeah. That's where all the money's gonna be. Yeah. That's where all the money's gonna be.

Leo Laporte (00:33:48):

Mary Jo Foley (00:33:49):
Right. Okay. It's not gonna be guys sitting around the campfire with Alex. Kipman doing a dancer on the campfire. That's not where money is, right?

Leo Laporte (00:33:57):
<Laugh> yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:33:58):

Paul Thurrott (00:33:58):
Not. I think we're not saying that's

Leo Laporte (00:33:59):
Not. We learned that. Not that that's not fun.

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:03):
No, that's fun.

Paul Thurrott (00:34:05):
Birdman was said

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:06):
<Laugh> yeah. Digital TWITns guys. It's it's the new metaverse just remained. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:34:12):
I love it. Paul, you've been playing with the outlook, the one outlook client. I hear little bird tells me. Yeah. Got

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:21):
It. I got it too.

Leo Laporte (00:34:22):
Both of you. Oh,

Paul Thurrott (00:34:23):
Did you try it? Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:25):

Paul Thurrott (00:34:25):
It only, and then it only works with commercial accounts. Which

Leo Laporte (00:34:28):
Is it?

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:30):
Yep. And education,

Paul Thurrott (00:34:31):
I think do right. I, if you follow the stink show that's occurred. Because this leak, like Microsoft's really upset about this. Yeah. And like a lot, the types of <laugh>. Well, I know, but a lot of the people that are under NDA have been really upset and like, you know, so they've, some of them have kind of come out and started writing about it and then other MVPs, like, what are you doing? You're violating your NDA. And it's like, it's on public. It's like, you still can't talk about that. And like, there's been a whole like, just like this is, cause this is like going back to the nineties when people,

Leo Laporte (00:34:59):
Do you think they really, that it really was Microsoft that leaked it.

Mary Jo Foley (00:35:03):
I think they accidentally leaked

Leo Laporte (00:35:04):
It. Oh, wasn't on purpose. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:35:07):
Here's the thing we can talk about what, what this is specifically, but I, I, my takeaway right off the top was we've been waiting for this thing for a long time, right? Yeah. This has been discussed a rumored for not years, but a year, couple years. A year and a half. Yep. Couple years. Okay. It was supposed to ship late last year and it was delayed. It probably would've timed it to ignite. I would imagine. So we've been waiting, we've been waiting. We've been waiting. We've been hearing April, may, may is when bill is, we're like maybe they're gonna time it to build for some reason, whatever you could sort of, if you would ask me a month or two ago, what do you think this thing is? I might have given you a certain answer around a modified version of the web apps that we have, like outlook on the web or outlook com whatever. And and then elite and it's outlook on the web in a app window. Yeah. <Laugh> and I, I don't know if it works offline or not. I actually never tested that. I assume it does. 

Mary Jo Foley (00:36:01):
I, or will at least.

Paul Thurrott (00:36:03):
Yeah. I, I, I don't understand what we've been waiting for here. Like this is, yeah, It's fine. It's absolutely better than those male and calendars and windows 10 and 11. The no doubt about that, but why have we waited for this? <Laugh> like, what is this thing? Like, it's just the web app.

Mary Jo Foley (00:36:20):
Yeah. So, right. This is what we're talking about is project Monarch, which we've talked about on the show a lot, also called one outlook. So the idea, the reason Microsoft's building this is for them, right? They wanna have one code base that works on windows, on the web and on the Mac. Right? Right. Now all these different things are different code bases. So when they update features, it comes to one platform than another, and they have to try to keep them in sync and add features over here and there. So when they have this code base done, and it is actually the same product that works on all these platforms, it's gonna be much easier for them to roll out features quickly. And for users you'll get features faster. Okay. yeah, it looks exactly like outlook for the web. The one thing I notice you can't do is add multiple accounts, which I also would assume are, is coming you know, add to, so

Paul Thurrott (00:37:08):
Lemme ask you about that real quick, if you don't mind also last week, whether you were out gallivanting around, I don't know what you were doing. <Laugh> 

Mary Jo Foley (00:37:15):
Eating dumplings and shining down. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:37:17):
<Laugh> there was a story about Microsoft has brought back multi count support to, which is very interesting. This is something used to be able to do way back in the day. And there was some, some technical complexity that caused them to kill this feature. But the idea is you have, you know, maybe sign into outlook do well, actually they made this not a great example. You sign into and you have a personal Microsoft account. Like I do. And you have a commercial Microsoft account. Like I also do. Yeah. And you wanna just switch between those things. You don't wanna have to go through the whole signout laboriously sign in to F a blah, blah, blah, whatever. Yeah. So they've added that capability. Well, I mean, I and I'll look on the web are in this ballpark, right? Yeah. It seems like that capability could be coming and that maybe that's the way they'll do it the way we see it on Mm. You know, it's just not in that maybe. Right. That

Mary Jo Foley (00:38:04):
Was one. Although I, I have people who got the leaked build who say they have the capability in their app, so they may be rolling it out in a way that some people are getting the features earlier than others and some aren't. 

Paul Thurrott (00:38:18):
Do you know how it works? Is it actually a feature, you know, you go to settings at account or is it like a, I don't know, you know?

Mary Jo Foley (00:38:24):
Okay. Yeah. I, I don't know. Interesting. yeah, it was funny. I, I almost never download leaked stuff because I'm afraid to do it. And I'm also like, what am I gonna do with it? But this one, because I've covered it for so long. As soon as I saw the leak on windows central, I'm like, I'm just gonna download it. And I clicked the link and it downloaded and right after it downloaded, I get a message saying, you do not have access to this, but I'm like, no, I got it right before they tried to shut me out. Right. And what, then they actually tried to shut, I got a message in my, in my browser saying, you do not have access. You cannot get this app. And then I'm like, I got it though. There it is. It's it's here. I've got it. And then I'm like, eh, there's nothing to see really. Okay. And that, and then a guy from Microsoft, no. A guy from Microsoft goes on TWITtter and he says Mary Jo did, do you think this just might be a honey pot for us to collect all your email information? Like you gotta

Paul Thurrott (00:39:15):
Build by the way. Oh my God. That's, that's funny. That's funny and illegal and, and nice of you to say it out

Mary Jo Foley (00:39:20):
Loud. It was, it was definitely a joke. It was definitely geez. But, but he's like and I said, I'm, I took one for the team. <Laugh> You know, but yeah. So funny so far, like I agree with you. There's nothing there to see. Like it's not that interesting. Right? it's the concept is good. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:39:38):
Oh, no, I, I don't guess I don't dislike it. I, I think the issue is just the anticipation was so great. Right. and then it's like, oh, it's just the, it's the web. It does open sub windows, which I like it's. Yeah. Some of the links open in a browser tab, which is weird, which also speaks to it being a web app. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:39:56):
It's also a preview it's early, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's

Paul Thurrott (00:39:59):

Mary Jo Foley (00:39:59):
It's the final version.

Paul Thurrott (00:40:00):
Right. I just, I'm just surprised it wasn't more different. I, after all the delays, I sort of assumed they must be working on something spectacular here. Yeah. And it's like, oh, it's the web, you know, which is fine, which is not bad. I don't mean it.

Mary Jo Foley (00:40:12):
No, all the leaks were like, it's gonna look just like and I'm like, it probably will because that's kind of, they think that's a good design and that's where they're going with this. Right? Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:40:21):
The tools it supports the same kinda like, you know, can do themes on these apps. It does the same thing. The header change is whatever. It's fine. You know, it's fine.

Mary Jo Foley (00:40:29):
It is. It's fine. Of course, people who like the outlook native outlook, client, windows are freaking out about this because they're looking at this and going, okay, you can't do this, you can't do this. I don't like it. Well,

Paul Thurrott (00:40:41):
Listen, dinosaurs, there's an asteroid head for the earth and it's got your name on it. So do you think, do you think they'll actually replace it or just put it in with it?

Mary Jo Foley (00:40:51):
So the rumor I heard the last rumor was Microsoft plans to try to do this gradually. Right. So at maybe before the end of the year, it'll be in windows 11 alongside the mail and calendar app. And then at some point they'll be like, okay guys, we're trying to wean you off the mail and calendar app, blah, blah, blah. They're not just one day gonna take the mail and calendar app out suddenly and like, boom, here's your, you think they're not gonna do that.

Leo Laporte (00:41:18):
But what if you're not using

Paul Thurrott (00:41:19):
Outlook mail or

Leo Laporte (00:41:21):
Outlook.Com mail? Will it still, is it, is it a full mail client?

Paul Thurrott (00:41:26):

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:27):
Yeah. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:41:28):
Yeah. It works with your well

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:30):
Mail calendar. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:41:30):
Yeah, yeah. And contact.

Leo Laporte (00:41:32):
So you could replace with it then. Okay. You could, oh yeah. Yeah. So the name makes me think, it's like, well, it's for the desktop kind of,

Paul Thurrott (00:41:39):
But it's also, it's also not like, well, what about office? Right. So if you have a Microsoft 365 account, you go to and you download office right now, you get the desktop version of outlook. Yeah. At some point, is this gonna be

Mary Jo Foley (00:41:53):
Replace that I would guess. Yes.

Paul Thurrott (00:41:56):
Lo Lauren sent me a a message that was, I think in the I dunno if it was in Microsoft 365 or office to come somewhere, you know, that talked about how this was an unsupported, you know, early test version, cetera. Yeah. It said this version is missing some of the key features and enhancements that will be available later for our customers in the beta channel beta channel of office <laugh> or,

Mary Jo Foley (00:42:18):
Oh, my guess is windows.

Leo Laporte (00:42:20):

Paul Thurrott (00:42:20):
Okay. I was curious what that meant. Yeah. Yeah. We encourage customers to wait for the beta version to be released.

Leo Laporte (00:42:25):
Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.

Mary Jo Foley (00:42:28):
Okay. Yeah. So I, my, my message to people is it's out in a leaked form. You can download it or not download it. I don't think they've removed the link to download it. They're cautioning people, not all the features are there. They said it's gonna be in the beta channel within a couple weeks or in the coming weeks. Right. So that can mean anything could mean months from now. That could be right. <Laugh> but yeah, but

Leo Laporte (00:42:52):
The important

Paul Thurrott (00:42:52):
Thing to know is you can't, you can't just use it. If you have a Microsoft account, you, you have to have a commercial,

Mary Jo Foley (00:42:58):
You have to have

Leo Laporte (00:42:59):
A business or

Paul Thurrott (00:43:00):

Mary Jo Foley (00:43:01):
Or education. Right. If you just,

Leo Laporte (00:43:03):
If you don't have that

Mary Jo Foley (00:43:04):
Microsoft personal or home, you can't use it.

Paul Thurrott (00:43:06):
It's not, not gonna

Leo Laporte (00:43:06):
Work. Yep. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:43:08):
No, I assume eventually it will work. Right. And I assume eventually they'll have some form of multi account, so we'll see. Yep. I think it looks fine. I just, again, I, it <laugh>, I don't understand why this has taken so long. And I think because it has taken so long, I thought, man, it must, they must have something special planned here. And that's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Like I said, it is absolutely better than the stuff built into windows

Leo Laporte (00:43:32):
Today. It

Mary Jo Foley (00:43:32):
Is. It is. It's

Leo Laporte (00:43:33):
Nice. But if you had office wouldn't you just use outlook. I don't, by the way, solve

Paul Thurrott (00:43:38):
This naming. They've

Leo Laporte (00:43:40):
Gotta solve this naming.

Mary Jo Foley (00:43:41):
No, everything's it's gonna just be called outlook again. It's so you're gonna call it outlook.

Leo Laporte (00:43:45):
<Laugh> yeah. So confusing.

Mary Jo Foley (00:43:47):
Yeah. I know. I know

Paul Thurrott (00:43:49):
One and one outlook is a perfect name for something that has 17 versions.

Leo Laporte (00:43:52):
That's right. There is no, just call it outlook. No, there is no

Paul Thurrott (00:43:55):
Outlook Legion, you know?

Mary Jo Foley (00:43:56):

Leo Laporte (00:43:57):
I why, and they don't wanna call it outlook express for obvious reasons. So great.

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:02):
No. And then the outlook that's on your phone. That's not gonna change. That's still ly under the covers, right? Like that's not gonna become the one outlook thing.

Leo Laporte (00:44:10):
Oh my God.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:10):
Maybe, maybe that's the next step though. Once you've got the base, the code base moved over to this, you could do a new mobile client. Maybe

Leo Laporte (00:44:17):
Are there so few names left.

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:21):
Oh. You know, Microsoft wants to pretend things are unified. That aren't unified. Right. So that's why they do things like that. With a name, name.

Leo Laporte (00:44:28):
<Laugh> it's male. All male's outlook. Right?

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:30):
All male is outlook guys. That's it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> that's the end. It's

Paul Thurrott (00:44:33):
A bleak outlook, but it's an outlook.

Leo Laporte (00:44:34):
Sure. It is. Yeah. It's a bleak outlook.

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:37):

Leo Laporte (00:44:38):
Wait a minute. I'm writing that one down. There's a show name.

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:41):
<Laugh> a

Leo Laporte (00:44:42):
Bleak. A bleak outlook. <Laugh> yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:46):
A bleak and a bleak. Both <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:44:50):
What's ABL.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:51):
It's an obliques. An oblique

Mary Jo Foley (00:44:53):
OBL E L E a K.

Leo Laporte (00:44:55):
Oh yeah. That's what I was saying. Like bleak house. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Oblique too. You're right. It's all of the above.

Mary Jo Foley (00:45:00):
It's also oblique <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:45:02):
Oh Lord. Speaking of names.

Mary Jo Foley (00:45:06):
Oh yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:45:06):
Can't call it power app portal anymore. No, no, no,

Mary Jo Foley (00:45:10):
No, no. Oh boy. Yeah. Microsoft loves to rename things. As we know, especially in the power platform family, they've done a lot of renaming there and there's more to come. Looks like the thing that's now called power apps, portals, which is a terrible name that doesn't really describe what this product is, is going to get a better name, power pages. <Laugh> power pages is a way to make pages like websites and basically business centered website. So it's a development hosting platform. Some people said like front page used to be. Yeah. Kinda like that. Right. kinda like SharePoint portals probably also. And so the walking cat, our friend who always finds great leaks, found a video that talked about power pages. And then when you clicked on the URL, it resolved to power apps, portals. So it is the same thing. I'm guessing that will be another announcement at build that they're resoning it.

Leo Laporte (00:46:10):
Yeah. Okay. They, you know, I mean, simple, they got a lot, a long way to go before. There's crazy as Google. One of the things they announced today was the Google right wallet, which was renamed. Google pay is not gonna be Google wallet again, Google again.

Paul Thurrott (00:46:28):
Yeah. How, how many passes does one get <laugh> you know, it's so crazy. I'm so happy Androids. Finally gonna get a wallet app.

Leo Laporte (00:46:36):
It's great.

Mary Jo Foley (00:46:38):

Leo Laporte (00:46:39):
So great. I's so great. Oh, look, we haven't talked about hardware yet. Is there anything anything in to talk about? I still wait for my Dell, I think cuz of you know, supply chain, et cetera. It's still another month off, but my XBS 15. Yeah, yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:46:56):
Yeah, I thought I thought your computer might be, even be as late as July now. Is that

Leo Laporte (00:47:00):
Yeah, I think you're right. Let I'll log into Dell while you tell us all about the latest.

Paul Thurrott (00:47:05):
Yeah. Okay. <Laugh> so Microsoft has been doing a lot of work around accessible hardware. Right. We know about the Xbox adaptive controller, which is really cool. That dates back a couple years, there's a surface adaptive kit. Right. And they had an accessibility event recently and they're, they're gonna release a bunch of new what they're calling adaptive hardware. And this is, these are almost like little kits you can do use to construct.

Leo Laporte (00:47:31):
I thought these were really hardware devices. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:47:33):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> this is amazing. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> yeah. Yeah. So the, the big example is the mouse. And so the mouse, the, the base part of the mouse looks like a, it looks like the, the first iMac mouse or whatever, it's this teeny thing. It's got two buttons in a scroll wheel, but then you can add onto it and you can build it into the mouse that you might need for your, you know, because of your particular PHY physical needs or whatever. And they're gonna do the same thing with keyboards and, and other devices as well. And I, you know, I have to say what, as they've been making these announcements about different accessible hardware technologies, I've been thinking, you know, this is, this, is this a flash in the pan? Are they just like, kind of throwing us out there? But I, I look at this and I think, I don't know this has got legs.

Paul Thurrott (00:48:14):
You know, it's, it's interesting how they're really expanding on the capabilities and these things will even be customizable with 3d printers. So they'll give you the, the tools you need to actually design and build your own add-ons for these things using 3d printers which is also really exciting. So it's a it's, it's, it's really incredible. You know, so whatever you, if you have a physical impairment of some kind, I mean maybe you don't, you know, you're missing a hand or an arm or whatever they'll you can design, or they can Des you know, using these parts, essentially design hardware that you can use to interact with computing.

Leo Laporte (00:48:52):
This is how it should be, cuz everybody is different. So make a kit that you could put together that fits the needs.

Paul Thurrott (00:49:00):
This is just to give you an idea of how far off, not off how far ahead this is compared to how things were just a few years ago. Most companies that make mice don't even make mice for lefthanded people. <Laugh>, I mean, a lot of mice are just for like,

Leo Laporte (00:49:16):
What about my disability? This is I'm a lefty. This is not a,

Paul Thurrott (00:49:19):
Yeah, this is not a step forward. This is a, this is like a quantum leap forward, you know? That's really interesting. It's neat. I like to see stuff.

Leo Laporte (00:49:28):
That's great. They've been very good in in adaptive technologies.

Paul Thurrott (00:49:32):
They've really taken a leadership position and accessibility in some ways. Yeah. It's, it's

Leo Laporte (00:49:38):
Interesting. Bra Bravo, well done. Yeah. All sorts of ways. You can configure these to work with whatever your issue is. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> including incredible. You poor lefties.

Paul Thurrott (00:49:52):
I, well, well, no, no, sorry. I should, let's be specific. We're not gonna solve the lefty thing. Nobody. No,

Leo Laporte (00:49:56):
No. Nobody can solve it. <Laugh> I got my new, I did get my new Dell mouse and it's it's it's agnostic

Paul Thurrott (00:50:03):
On, on the directional or

Leo Laporte (00:50:04):
Whatever. Omni ambiguous. I don't know. Ambiguous

Paul Thurrott (00:50:10):
It's biggest. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:50:11):
It's just a lozenge. Although it has a slight tilt to the left, which means, you know, but that's okay. I'll, I'll live with that. By the way, my my X PS, 15 95, 20 with the 12th gen Intel vPro processor

Paul Thurrott (00:50:28):
Which series processor is it, do you

Leo Laporte (00:50:30):
Know? It's the P series? 95 20. So I don't I got an I five.

Paul Thurrott (00:50:34):
We'll have a letter in there somewhere. I's gonna be a P a U and H

Leo Laporte (00:50:38):
No. Oh, that's let me look. I will look, come on Leo. Come on. It's a, it's a H what is the H no,

Paul Thurrott (00:50:46):
That's great. High performance,

Leo Laporte (00:50:49):
High performance, even though it's I five.

Paul Thurrott (00:50:52):
Yep. Interesting. Yeah. So the above you, you get, I five I seven and I nine options.

Leo Laporte (00:50:57):
So it's it's a 12,500 H 12 is the mm-hmm <affirmative> series of 500 is cuz it's a P five and the HS cuz it's high performance, 18 megs cash, 12 cores. So yeah, two of those cores I think are efficient

Paul Thurrott (00:51:12):
And this is a hybrid design. So it's, it's gonna be, you know, a certain number of performance cores and a certain number of efficient

Leo Laporte (00:51:18):
Cores. I that's why I decided, I think I should try the I five cuz you know, I think it might be enough, right? Might be plenty. Yeah. Yep. I bet it is. Yeah. Yeah. So it's gonna come June 11th, June 11th. Oh that's

Paul Thurrott (00:51:32):
Good there back. That's not that far away. About month from

Leo Laporte (00:51:34):
Today. I'll get it before the trip. That's the key mm-hmm <affirmative> give me plenty of time to put Linnux on it before the cruise <laugh> I won't so important to you that

Paul Thurrott (00:51:43):
Make sure I'm not drinking. When you say things

Leo Laporte (00:51:45):
<Laugh> I won't do that.

Speaker 5 (00:51:47):
I promise I'm sorry I had to do it. Don't don't you dare. I promise I won't do that.

Leo Laporte (00:51:56):
So the army had how many holo lenses did they order? Thousand one,

Paul Thurrott (00:52:01):
But it costs like hollow lenses. 12 billion.

Leo Laporte (00:52:03):
Yeah. Very, a lot of ho. So now and, and by the way, the rumor is the Army's unhappy,

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:09):

Leo Laporte (00:52:10):
Yep. But now VWs getting some.

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:13):

Leo Laporte (00:52:14):

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:14):
They gonna do so fir so first the army wasn't actually getting holo lenses. They were getting these ah, modified goggles that used HoloLens technology in size, but they weren't HoloLens now Volkswagens working with Microsoft and this, when you first hear it is so bizarre, they're like, so you could use a HoloLens inside a moving car and then you're like, wait, why

Leo Laporte (00:52:34):
Would I never wanted do that?

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:36):

Leo Laporte (00:52:37):

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:38):
But, but it's not really exactly that. So <laugh> what they're trying to do is make it so that holographic images can be oh displayed like at the front of your car on.

Leo Laporte (00:52:52):
Okay. Yes.

Mary Jo Foley (00:52:52):
Okay. That's fine. So that you could see like pedestrian warnings. Oh, I love that on your display. Or if you're teaching someone how to drive a certain kind of vehicle, you could have like automated tutorial kind of stuff. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:53:03):
My Audi used to have like a night site yeah. Thing. But the screen was down, down to the left of the steering wheel. Like you'd have to go.

Mary Jo Foley (00:53:11):
No, you don't want that pedestrian

Leo Laporte (00:53:13):
Down. Oh God. I think there are this way. It's on this, on this wind screen. That's a good place. We're

Paul Thurrott (00:53:18):
We're blind. It's

Leo Laporte (00:53:19):
We're it's a headsets. Yeah. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:53:20):
Yeah. Right. So, you know, Microsoft's doing a lot of things with holographic technology and autonomous vehicles and that's kinda where this fits in. Right. It's not, when I first read it, I'm like, okay, who's gonna wear a hollow lens in a car and try to like do something with the ho

Paul Thurrott (00:53:34):
Lens. Mean if you've driven a Hummer, it has a holo lens, like field of view

Leo Laporte (00:53:38):

Paul Thurrott (00:53:39):
But you know, no one is really looking for that.

Leo Laporte (00:53:41):
No, no. And the good news is this makes sense. If you're in a humer and you hit a pedestrian, you'll hardly notice it. So that's the good news. Exactly.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:47):
Click will not, it probably won't even hurt the vehicle. It

Leo Laporte (00:53:49):
Won't hurt the vehicle at all. You just go right through 'em

Mary Jo Foley (00:53:52):
Right. I mean, this is all about Microsoft trying to show, you know, there's a lot of bad press out there for the HoloLens right now, but there's still really good applications for the holographic technology.

Leo Laporte (00:54:01):
So it's really windows holographic that, that Volkswagen it is, is buying. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, that's pretty exciting. I want, I'm thinking about my next electric vehicle, cuz the lease on the, you, you're

Paul Thurrott (00:54:16):
Already thinking of your,

Leo Laporte (00:54:16):
I know I, I live in the fantasy world of the future. Well, no, 2005 I've had the Mustang monkey for a year. So in two years I'm gonna buy a new one and I'm looking at this Volkswagen, they recreated the van, right. The bus mm-hmm <affirmative> right. Of course the buzz. And that would be kind of cool to have that on the buzz mm-hmm <affirmative> and be kind of cool. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:54:38):
This is sort of what I thought Hollins was gonna be when they announced it. Yeah. I, I distinctly remember this day, the way they were talking, it was about holograms and I was thinking they're positioning cameras or scanner or whatever it is, projectors mm-hmm <affirmative> around the room and we all on, you know, in the audience, we'll see holograms on the stage and this will be incredible. And then it was like, well, you know, you put on this Darro Theder helmet thing. And and then, you know, the more you learned about it at the time, it's like, well, okay, it's it is

Leo Laporte (00:55:06):
Early days. That's the thing.

Paul Thurrott (00:55:08):

Leo Laporte (00:55:08):
It was, it was, was, and, and I have to say, Microsoft gets as much outta this partnership with VWs VW does the thing on these things is getting data, you know, training and learning

Paul Thurrott (00:55:19):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> they also could use a PR win. Frankly. You mentioned the us army. But we need some, some use of this to make sense, right. In a broad context, and this is a nice mainstream application of this technology. So

Leo Laporte (00:55:32):
Do we know how much

Paul Thurrott (00:55:33):
To me it looks great.

Leo Laporte (00:55:33):
They've invested in, in HoloLens up to this point. Must be billions, right?

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:39):
Yeah. For sure. Billions,

Leo Laporte (00:55:40):

Paul Thurrott (00:55:40):
Many billions.

Leo Laporte (00:55:41):
Many million. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have the H the 12 500, wait,

Paul Thurrott (00:55:49):
You remember the Simpsons episode where you bought a computer and he is driving down the highway and there's a billboard that's for the

Leo Laporte (00:55:55):
Next person. Every time that happens to me every time. Did I do

Paul Thurrott (00:55:58):
Again? Video? No. So,

Leo Laporte (00:56:00):

Paul Thurrott (00:56:00):
God. So be thanks to this kind of hybrid architecture that they now have with the 12th Gencor and, and new I'm. Sure. Yeah. They're, they're able to have different versions of it within the product family. So we've always, actually kind of had different versions. You was the mainstream and, and by the way, I should say for this conversation, we're just talking about the mobile versions, cuz they're also desktop versions, right. That are, you know, higher powered still, but just, just looking at mobile back in the day, by which, I mean three months ago, it was basically you series was just went out on probably 90 something percent of all the mobile chip says, but we also had H series. Right. Which was the high performance version. There was a w series, which was aimed at mobile workstations, you know, so we we've always had a few different versions, but they're really starting to split them up more and more with the 12th dense, we still have U series, which was, I think a 15 wat part P series. What is it? 28 30 Watts. I think H series I believe is 56. Now they're introducing an HX series. Oh man. And this thing starts at 55 Watts, but it can actually deliver up to 157 Watts under load.

Leo Laporte (00:57:04):
Oh, I don't want that in a laptop. That's no.

Paul Thurrott (00:57:07):
And there's the other little asterisks with it is it actually comes with previous generation integrated graphics because the assumption is that any PC maker that uses it oh, will be putting discrete graphics from radiant

Leo Laporte (00:57:19):
Or is this for gaming machines or yeah. Something where you don't mind it's plugged in and it's, and the fans are blowing like gone with the wind

Paul Thurrott (00:57:26):
And no, yeah, it's right. It's it definitely. And so this is a way for them. I, I also think, you know, frankly, apple, Silicon, it maybe influenced this notion that we can have higher end versions, you know it more and more course, you know, more performance course. Right. Supports for next gen support for next gen technology like DDR five Ram that's guys ECC Ram, P C I E 5.0.

Leo Laporte (00:57:50):
So I'm not, it's not gonna cheap that I got the

Paul Thurrott (00:57:53):
No. Yeah. Honestly, if you're that laptop would like use series even would probably be great. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:57:59):
No, I'm excited. Fantastic. And I think I would the XE graphics too. So the little higher end. 

Paul Thurrott (00:58:06):
Yeah. So I yep. Yep, yep. Yeah. That's it's good. Yeah. I mean, you're not gonna be playing you know, duty with it. No,

Leo Laporte (00:58:13):
A little Minecraft. You wouldn't, that's all. Yeah. Be fine. Yeah. Mind

Paul Thurrott (00:58:18):
To that tumor a game that everybody plays cuz it's, <laugh> benchmarks. It sold great on everything.

Leo Laporte (00:58:23):
This is so old. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:58:25):
Yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:58:27):
No, this is I'm looking, I'm actually really looking forward to it. I love my I still have my yeah. 10Th generation XPS 13 and I love it. It's a great little machine.

Paul Thurrott (00:58:38):
So the ex yeah, the XPS has always been fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. And they fixed the camera issue,

Leo Laporte (00:58:42):
Obviously up the nose, the up the nose cab

Paul Thurrott (00:58:47):
You should do podcast like that. Let's

Leo Laporte (00:58:48):
See everything should be, oh, <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:58:52):
Let me get as Joly

Leo Laporte (00:58:53):
As I can. Oh the check you knows. Spell here. Other hardware. Oh, AMD has some, some new stuff. Yes.

Paul Thurrott (00:59:03):
Yeah. And thi this is for Chromebooks, which is kinda weird. I, I, I think this is the first time an X 86 based chipset has been designed specifically for Chromebooks, but they worked with Google. Google's gonna specifically support these chip sets. It's you know, it is the same sort of hybrid design, you know, Intel's doing obviously in, in many ways, I think AMD on X 86, kind of pioneered there with, you know, high numbers of cores. These guys are doing eight high performance process. Chos there's no way to know anything about how good these are. There are 50 what pieces. So these things sort of map to the use series on Intel, if that makes sense to people. And we'll have to wait and see, but there's gonna be three different versions. So you know, three, five and seven, just like, you know, on Intel rate, you know core I three core I five core I seven, we have rise three, five and seven. So eight process of chorus, H GPO chorus on the high end version. And then the low end version, which is <laugh> maybe more like an a or something. I don't know, two process Chos and three GPO Chos I think comes with a hamster. If you need a little bit

Leo Laporte (01:00:08):
Of extra, do you have any AMD any AMD machines?

Paul Thurrott (01:00:12):
Yeah. I've never had I any issues with am.

Leo Laporte (01:00:15):
I can't tell the difference to be honest.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:17):
So there is one big difference, and this is just a, you know, it is gonna be more of a problem in the future if they don't fix it, which is just Thunderbolt support. Right. 

Leo Laporte (01:00:25):
Although that's true.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:27):
Thunder four USB four is sort of the same thing. So I don't know that we support USB four and AMD I'm. I don't,

Leo Laporte (01:00:34):
I don't, that's a good point. Yeah. That

Paul Thurrott (01:00:36):
Is a good, that's something to, that's a bridge to cross, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:00:41):
Yeah. My my AMD gaming machine you're right. You know, Thunderbolt.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:45):
Yeah. Which is kind of a weird deal. Wow. I just transferred a couple of videos off my iPhone. It took 28 minutes. <Laugh> I don't know why, but it's, you know, it's like USB two speeds. I mean, I think speed really matters depending on what you're doing. So if you're doing video work, for example. Yeah. you need some kind of a high speed, something to get that thing off, I guess in that case, it's gonna be your network <laugh>, you know, I don't know. I don't know what you would do with, I guess, well, USB three is pretty good. Yeah. But you know, you want Thunderbolt before

Leo Laporte (01:01:12):
And I, as far as gaming my MD with a Nvidia graphics part is fantastic. It's fantastic. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:01:19):
I bet it is.

Leo Laporte (01:01:19):
Yeah. That's great. All right. Let's take a little break. We're gonna talk next about build it's coming up. Finally, finally, finally, we know a little bit more, but first let's talk about security. You know, you know, if you run a business that cybersecurity is kind of the number one top of mind issue for any business you know, you're probably spending a large portion of your it budget every year to buy cyber security tools, more complicated, more staff with cyber security, credentials, more expensive. It doesn't have to be that way. Good security does not mean. In fact, it shouldn't mean more complicated security finding the right solution to solve your security issues is, is absolutely critical to your success without burdening your overworked it and security staff. That's why I'm recommending jump cloud jump cloud recognized by G2 as a leader in five categories, it does a lot, including a top five security vendor.

Leo Laporte (01:02:21):
You could read a thousand plus positive reviews on G2 and find out why more than 150,000 organizations have chosen to protect themselves with jump cloud jump cloud is the smart choice. They help you build a strong cybersecurity foundation by doing the basics, right? You can reduce 98% of the issues that lead to cyber incidents. Steve, Gibson's always saying this by just doing a few things. Well, I think you could, even if you've ever listened to security now, or even, you know, just any of our shows, you know what those are two-factor authentication, right? Multi-Factor including least privilege access, right? So, you know, you only get into the thing that you really need. Not a whole lot of things. You gotta have a comprehensive plan for patching. You gotta have data protection. You gotta have out anti malware. There's five things right there, jump cloud.

Leo Laporte (01:03:09):
Does 'em all one platform, one single pan of glass, and you got it all. You can reduce that. It sprawl all that complexity, five programs doing five different things. That, that means the risk is higher because those systems are brittle. It's easy to misconfigure one or more there's alert, fatigue. Each of them ping you all the time. There's also, you know, challenges, piecemealing together, a number of point solutions from different vendors that may not interoperate well, jump cloud solves this completely cuts right through it, reducing administrative overhead, reducing complexity, but getting the job done all the same. So you can do more with the resources. You have jump cloud includes zero trust. That's really important because you don't, you know, you don't wanna let somebody into your network and then say, Hey, do whatever you need to or want that's the worst case scenario and has bitten a lot of people right now with jump with the jump cloud.

Leo Laporte (01:04:09):
You, you device and user identity and access management is completely managed. You can grant secure access and it's all on a single integrated platform. The last thing you wanna do is kind of cobble together identity and SSO and, and other capabilities with all the different vendors. Then who do you call? If there's a problem, it's just a mess. Jump cloud just makes it seamless. Hybrid work. Of course is a big issue. These days, a lot of employees who could come back to work, don't want to, a lot of employees who can come back to work, want to, so you gotta support hybrid work. And that means of course, more challenges for it. Administrators jump cloud makes it easy to securely managed users on, and off-prem all of the devices access just to the right people, just at the right time. It's a great idea.

Leo Laporte (01:04:56):
Fully evaluate jump cloud right now for free. Go to CLO UD do C L O U D dot J U P C L O U, Help your organization move to a modern secure hybrid work model. The time is right. The time is right cloud dot jump for a full evaluation. I think you'll agree. It's a simple, perfect solution for many, many businesses. Thank you. Jump cloud for supporting windows weekly. You support windows weekly, by the way, by using that address so that they know you saw it here. That's again, cloud dot jump Let's see, let's talk about build some of the sessions now out. Yes.

Paul Thurrott (01:05:49):
Yeah. Yes. If you like comedy relief, I recommend searching for the term windows. <Laugh> no,

Leo Laporte (01:05:54):
Actually there are, are there, is there any windows in

Paul Thurrott (01:05:57):
There? So there are a few things. If in fact the one, I think we're all looking forward to the most, it features pano pane, right? So this one called right crate NextGen experiences at scale with windows. Remember this is a developer show. So I'm ostensibly a developer show. So I'm kind of curious about that building green apps with windows. This will no doubt. Sorry.

Mary Jo Foley (01:06:17):
No, I was just gonna say let's, let's be clear though, this isn't about like new windows features or anything like that. Right,

Paul Thurrott (01:06:23):
Right, right,

Mary Jo Foley (01:06:23):
Right. Let's tamp down. People's expectations about the windows. Oh, I'm sorry.

Paul Thurrott (01:06:28):
Sorry. I thought it was sufficiently negative there. So <laugh>, I, I think the fact that Panos pane is involved in that talk makes it potentially interesting. And I'm hoping that there'll be some, you know, kind of general windows days, maybe in the keynote. I know <laugh> okay. You know, I, no. Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (01:06:50):
It's nice to want

Paul Thurrott (01:06:50):
That. That's not delayed at the end of the tunnel.

Mary Jo Foley (01:06:52):
It's nice. <Laugh> no, here's what you're gonna hear about it. Build ready. If you go to the sessions, there's 500 plus sessions listed up there, you know what? There's a lot of power platform, a lot a ton of it, right. There's a ton of T sessions, like many, many IOT sessions. So right now Microsoft's IOT strategy is kind of in flux. They're talking about Azure edge. They're talking about IOT, they're talking about IOT. Metaverse like I talked about before. So they're trying to bring some clarity hopefully to their IOT strategy, because right now it doesn't feel like there's a lot of clarity.

Paul Thurrott (01:07:30):
So these things are the power platform, especially are, are at least client or client adjacent <laugh> if you will, for IOT meaning I guess we'll just call them not Azure <laugh>, you know? Right. Or at least not Azure specific. So that's interesting to me, I feel like the last 1100 builds have been very focused on Azure, Azure and those kinds

Mary Jo Foley (01:07:54):
Of things. No, there's still gonna be a lot of Azure. There's still gonna be a

Paul Thurrott (01:07:57):
Lot of, no, of course. I know. I know we can't escape it it's fine. But I like to see any yeah. Anything client related,

Mary Jo Foley (01:08:04):
Right? Yeah. So there's gonna be some obviously dev tool related stuff. There's gonna be cloud native. There's a lot of cl if you look up the term cloud native, there's a lot of that, a lot of stuff with teams, not surprisingly, especially teams, what do they call them? Collaborative apps. Right. There is a ton about the Microsoft graph, which I also think is really interesting because I feel like we haven't heard a lot about that lately. So graph, you know, is the single endpoint that Microsoft has. So you can get at the data that's in all the parts of office 365 and even windows now. Right. So it'll be interesting to see what they say about that at build. Yeah. Yep. And AI, lots of AI again, because this is kind of how they feel like you need to see the

Paul Thurrott (01:08:50):
Future. Listen, I, there's gonna be Azure stuff and AI and ML and HoloLens.

Mary Jo Foley (01:08:55):

Paul Thurrott (01:08:55):
For sure, I'm just gonna try to stay with it. But I, I, I wanna believe,

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:01):
I don't think there are any quantum sessions which I'm happy about. I think there's no quantum. There's also only two sessions that make any mention of web three, which I, I take as a positive. There's only two things that use that term.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:16):

Leo Laporte (01:09:17):
I can't, what does Microsoft have to say about web three in general?

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:20):
Mean nothing.

Leo Laporte (01:09:21):
It's not, they're not a,

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:23):
I mean, they've got, so they've got sessions that are talking about blockchain in, in the context of web three, because they do have blockchain platforms and they've worked with consensus around blockchain. Right. So they have some things to say about that, but I like that they're keeping it real and not just using all the buzzwords, like even metaverse, there's only like five sessions that use the word metaverse that's good. Good

Paul Thurrott (01:09:44):
Job. Yep.

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:45):
Yep. <Laugh> okay.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:47):
There's a good chance. The quantum team was sucked into a black hole of their own making. Right.

Leo Laporte (01:09:52):
<Laugh> maybe

Paul Thurrott (01:09:53):
They disappeared. We don't know

Leo Laporte (01:09:54):
They're gone. They

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:55):
Could be here. We're so shocked. Paul and I, they might not be,

Leo Laporte (01:09:58):
We don't wanna look in the box,

Paul Thurrott (01:09:59):
Recover from that. Yeah. I will never recover from my quantum briefing.

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:03):
I know. Oh, what shock gonna doing a session at build.

Leo Laporte (01:10:08):
Good. When, when is that gonna be? 

Paul Thurrott (01:10:09):
Yeah, yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:10):
Yeah. We're we're helping,

Paul Thurrott (01:10:11):
It's gonna be about quantum computing

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:12):
By the way. Keynote. It's all quantum like just quantum

Leo Laporte (01:10:15):
Call and Mary Jo's all quantum computing

Paul Thurrott (01:10:17):
All cubits time, baby.

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:20):
Yeah, no, it'ss right after the main keynote on the first, the first keynote of the day, we're gonna be on a panel that is gonna talk about the keynote. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (01:10:29):

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:32):

Leo Laporte (01:10:34):
I am playing flutter pinball right now. This is in flutter. Now this is for Google IO. So pay no attention to the, but it's kind of, I mean, it's

Paul Thurrott (01:10:46):
So the reason, the reason this is interesting is that flood earth is designed to create, you know, well, flatter is, I should say is a UI framework. Whoa. It's not, it's not designed for the gaming, right? No, but applications. Yeah. This is pretty, it is hardware accelerated. Yeah. Yeah. Looks good. And what's interesting about this app you're showing is that this is a web app.

Leo Laporte (01:11:05):
Yes. This is in a webpage.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:08):

Leo Laporte (01:11:08):
Kinda like Fortnite.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:09):
So created with flutter. It just, they did this just to kind of show like, look, this isn't our target right now. But even with flutter in its current state, you can create this kind of, you know, casual.

Leo Laporte (01:11:21):
It's pretty impressive.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:22):
Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:11:24):
Yeah. Now it's not a flutter is not a Google product, is it?

Paul Thurrott (01:11:27):

Leo Laporte (01:11:28):
Oh it is. Okay. So that's why they mention this at Google IO to get people using.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:33):
Yeah. So it's a, it's a, it's a UI framework. They have a, a whole kind of an app frame, or it's not really framework an app eco app for app developers called Firebase. Those two things work together. They've expanded fluter out so that it works with desktop platforms, you know, the web windows, Mac, and Linux, if you could believe that. And canonical in particular is using fluter for a lot of their new work. So their installer is gonna be done with fluter they're writing new apps in fluter. I think they're doing firm work dates with flutter, which is interesting. So anyway, fluter has dramatically increased. So it used to be a, a real mobile app framework mobile apps, you know, from iOS and Android. And now it's, it's almost everything. It's pretty, you know, they don't do ties in, I guess, but I mean, they're pretty much, they're pretty much everywhere.

Leo Laporte (01:12:24):
It's good. I mean, they, you could do the, yeah. The ball is fluid and smooth and he's pretty nice. Pretty nice.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:30):
Yeah. We try, we, we cringe if you say flat, fast and fluid around here these days, but yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:12:34):
It's fluid. We do.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:35):
<Laugh> a little TWITtch, you know,

Leo Laporte (01:12:37):
We can't do that. <Laugh>, it's a good demo. That is that. So it's pure flutter. There's no web em or anything. It's just, that's pretty impressive.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:44):
I don't know. So obviously when you use a framework to target native platforms, there's gotta be something under the covers. So I don't actually know.

Leo Laporte (01:12:52):

Paul Thurrott (01:12:52):
What is, what is under flatter for the web?

Leo Laporte (01:12:54):

Paul Thurrott (01:12:55):
Yeah. I'm not really sure they're using desktop technologies on windows. I know that 

Leo Laporte (01:13:01):
I'm increasing, you know, there've been a lot of, so the whole idea is you cross platform developing and it runs everywhere. Somewhat native

Paul Thurrott (01:13:09):
If only a company called sun had come up with something like this in the nineties.

Leo Laporte (01:13:13):
<Laugh> but flutter and dart are really well beyond what Java

Paul Thurrott (01:13:17):
Java. Oh, no, I know I'm joking, but I mean the notion of run right. Once run anyway, which honestly, as a marketing phrase is really good. <Laugh>, you know, everyone understands that immediately. It's a great idea. Sure, sure. Java was not <laugh> did not live up to that

Leo Laporte (01:13:32):
At all. Well, Java is probably still number one or two language in the world, you know, after C plus

Paul Thurrott (01:13:38):
Plus it is, but it's up on the server, right? As a, as a client development platform for creating apps that shipped sailed, right. That's not a, that's not what Java is used for these days. Yeah. Yeah. But I think flutter, you could argue that flutter is the logical,

Leo Laporte (01:13:52):
It's a clean, Dart's a great language. It's clean. Yep. Flutter seems to be a very good framework.

Paul Thurrott (01:13:58):
So if you're into creating a or, you know, software development or whatever on the client, I think the, the, the thing you have to get over or you just kind of embrace or whatever, is there are different ways to do UI Microsoft and others? Well, actually the web started this notion of what we'll call like declarative UI, where you describe what a UI is gonna be and the thing rendering it does it in a certain way. And maybe it is what you wanted. Maybe it isn't Microsoft has SAML for that. I really like SAML. And I really like this approach. And the notion is you have UI code that is separated from your you know, C sharp code in this case of Microsoft usually. And you declare or describe your UI with SAML and you respond to events with C sharp code. Like I like that kind of separation, you know, flutter uses dart to do declarative UI in dart code. Like, so it's like C sharp or C plus plus, or whatever, or Java, you know, it's similar to that. So it's different. And it's kind of a conceptual hump. You have to get over, but it's, it's not the only environment that does this. I think I'm not really that super familiar with this stuff, but I think, you know, swift UI is similar and I, I suspect Kotlin has something jet pack or whatever is very

Leo Laporte (01:15:10):
Similar or something, but you know, Colin's more used for Android swift for iOS. Fluter really doesn't care. What, what platform right?

Paul Thurrott (01:15:18):
Fluter is cross platform. Yeah. That's been that's the dream.

Leo Laporte (01:15:20):
That's the real, real strength of it. Yep. Yep. Alright. Mary Jo go scratch SRA. <Laugh> cause it's time to talk. Xbox Paulette.

Paul Thurrott (01:15:35):
Yeah. Actually most of this is not Microsoft stuff. It's cuz you know, all the big stuff happened last week when

Leo Laporte (01:15:40):
Well there's one big story we talked about yesterday on windows weekly, which is you can now play Fortnite on iOS and Macintosh. Thanks. I'm gonna hold

Paul Thurrott (01:15:47):
Off on that one. That's I'm using that as a pick,

Leo Laporte (01:15:50):
Save it, save, save it. I won't mention anything. Yeah, save

Paul Thurrott (01:15:52):
That one. I that's a little, a little secret Xbox jab right at the end. So there have been rumors for years

Leo Laporte (01:15:58):
Sneaking in now. Great Joe. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:02):
I asked her if I could do an Xbox cocktail pick of the week, but she said no. So <laugh> there have been rumors for years that Microsoft has been working on an Xbox streaming, something of some kind, I mean a long time ago it was an Xbox media streamer. So it was gonna be based around

Leo Laporte (01:16:18):
Well didn't they have mixer. I mean didn't they fail already in that field?

Paul Thurrott (01:16:23):
No, no. I mean like a device that stream that content to a TV or to a stereo.

Leo Laporte (01:16:26):
Oh, oh, like an apple TV or a Roku. Oh, oh, oh

Paul Thurrott (01:16:31):
Yeah. So that never kind of came around. And then as the consoles progressed there was this notion of, well, we have this capability to take an Xbox one and play that game on a, on a computer. Well, what if we could play that game on a little device and they kind of started to, you know, the rumors about that and Microsoft was working on stuff like that. And now in the current generation, of course we have Xbox game cloud gaming, which is game streaming, which is part of Xbox game pass ultimate and the notion of a little streaming stick that just does. That makes tons of sense. And so there are various end points for Xbox cloud gaming, obviously mobile PCs, max, the web smart TVs are coming on board and now these rumors are coming up again, Microsoft supposedly plans to release some kind of a streaming stick that will look a lot like an Amazon stick or a Roku stick or whatever.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:21):
Huh. Plugging into an HTI HDMI part on a TV and streaming games. So there's no reason that can't work. That sounds great. That should be fine. Microsoft has not announced it <laugh>, but that, but that's the rumor. So we shall see the past few weeks, several weeks now have been kind of tough if you cover the industry because every single company on earth announces earnings all within a two week period of each other and Sony and Nintendo were among the last <laugh>. So those two companies just announced their earnings. I don't really care about their earnings too much. What I'm looking for is like what's going on with the console sales, right. So Sony has only, only sold 2 million PlayStation five consoles in its most recent quarter. It is sold or it has sold 19.3 million overall since the console debuted, that's below the number that it had sold for PlayStation four in a small type period.

Paul Thurrott (01:18:14):
Wow. And it's all because of component problems, right? Yeah. I mean Sony's, they'd like to ship more them. Yeah. I, and I think they would ship more. I, I think the demand is there. They just can't get there. The problem is this is like these numbers are like 2 million in a quarter. <Laugh> like, that's terrible. Yeah. That's really, really bad. Yeah. So, and it's also less than half what Sonia had expected to solve. Like the, the problems were actually worse than even they thought was gonna be the case. So what they told investors was that these component shortages are going to ease up this year and they actually expect this quarter and then going forward things to get better. But that said, they only expect to sell 18 million consoles in the current fiscal year. And I think I have the figure here, but that's below what it was in the last whiskey year, I guess, is the easiest way to say it.

Paul Thurrott (01:19:04):
So still some issues. And then Nintendo, which seems to be kind of immune to this stuff almost actually they saw some impact from component shortages as well. And so they sold 4.1, 1 million switch consoles in the quarter they have sold 23 million just in the last year. But that's down from 28.8 billion the previous fiscal year. And they say, actually, what they're saying is like, you know what, we're just gonna split our stock. And maybe you guys just won't worry about it too much. <Laugh> I think like, they're like, yeah, we're not gonna do as good. They're. They only expect to sell 21 million units this year. Switch might be getting a little long in the tooth. Maybe it's time for a 4k version or something. I don't, but they've all been hit by the same problems. And although I'll just point out, you know, Microsoft actually had kind of record console sales in the last quarter and according to N PD in the United States, at least they're, that's something we've never thought, I'd say leading sales to the current generation console. So Hmm. They seem to be doing pretty well. They won't give us numbers, but if these things are all true, they could conceivably be outselling Sony, at least and possibly Nintendo, which is crazy times.

Leo Laporte (01:20:18):

Paul Thurrott (01:20:19):
Crazy times

Leo Laporte (01:20:19):
They did just release that Ola update. So it's not like, I feel like they don't, they're

Paul Thurrott (01:20:25):
Not came out maybe September,

Leo Laporte (01:20:26):
October. Yeah. So, no, I don't think there's another, you know, switch to sitting in the warehouse

Paul Thurrott (01:20:32):
Or anything. Well, yeah. I don't think anyone expected all that. I think a lot of people at the last year, if you talked, we talked about this last June, July, we would've been like 4k. Right. You're gonna do obviously

Leo Laporte (01:20:41):
4K. Right.

Paul Thurrott (01:20:42):
But you know, Nintendo's uhintendo of consoles

Leo Laporte (01:20:46):
And they've been doing fine with switch has been doing

Paul Thurrott (01:20:48):
Fine. People love Nintendo. Yeah. Yeah. We're

Leo Laporte (01:20:50):
Fine. I still like my switch.

Paul Thurrott (01:20:53):

Leo Laporte (01:20:54):
Let's take a little break back of the book coming up, which of course means many things, but most importantly, beer <laugh> and a and a, and a beer for you, Paul, I think, oh, Mary Jo's selected something special, little something special for Mr. Thurrott to celebrate his new country of origin. No

Paul Thurrott (01:21:18):
Country of destination.

Leo Laporte (01:21:19):
You're not Emig immigrating or anything. You're just, yeah, you're just visiting

Paul Thurrott (01:21:23):
Leo. We don't have anything to announce at this time.

Leo Laporte (01:21:27):
<Laugh> I love your Instagrams. I have to say I just saw the giant soccer ball.

Paul Thurrott (01:21:36):
Wow. Yep. Well, so by the way, just to put that one in perspective, there's a traveling Vatican display you know, like a museum type thing happening. They're putting it in the Zulo. It's in a giant version of the Sistine chapel, like built right in the Zulo. Right. And and so I, I said to Stephanie, when we saw this thing, we, we, we wanted to see it today. We

Leo Laporte (01:21:56):
Now you don't have to go to Rome

Paul Thurrott (01:21:57):
Tickets. So it's like we have the Vatican reproduced in the Zocalo, but because it's Mexico, let's throw up a soccer ball too. Cuz

Leo Laporte (01:22:05):
<Laugh> it's you know, the holy father I'm told

Paul Thurrott (01:22:09):
We're religious. We like Catholic in

Leo Laporte (01:22:10):
Here. We like a football fan. I think you're safe. I think you're safe on, do you mind if I if I show a few of these? No, of course not beautiful pictures. I guess you, you put 'em up right before the show. I think, let me see.

Paul Thurrott (01:22:23):
Oh, we were just walking around today. We didn't.

Leo Laporte (01:22:25):
Yeah. This is like your, your early morning walk or something. And I'm yeah. Cause I'm curious about the neighborhood. Let's see

Paul Thurrott (01:22:34):
Here's yeah. This, no, this is just downtown. This is just downtown center. This is yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:22:38):
The here's the setup you're working with right now, which looks that's right. Hotel looks actually looks better from the other side, to be honest with you. <Laugh> but okay. Okay. Yeah. These are so this is just downtown. It's a beautiful city. Look

Paul Thurrott (01:22:53):
At this historic center. Look

Leo Laporte (01:22:55):
At this such a gorgeous city, but I understand that some of the buildings are a little cuz the ground is, is moving <laugh> yeah. Some of the buildings.

Paul Thurrott (01:23:02):
Yeah. If you could, if you could imagine that ground could be like water. Yeah. That's what Mexico city was.

Leo Laporte (01:23:07):
It was a swamp. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. That's great. I, I actually, I really enjoy Mexico. I have to say you're gonna have yeah I do too. This, I don't know. This is very Mexican also. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:23:20):
Yeah. Don't know what's going on. Quality. Mexican sidewalk

Leo Laporte (01:23:23):
Probably been there for months. Just like that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know what this means. It doesn't sound good.

Paul Thurrott (01:23:28):
I can tell you what this means. So remember there was a kind of a famous subway crash.

Leo Laporte (01:23:32):
Oh, in Mexico

Paul Thurrott (01:23:33):
A couple years

Leo Laporte (01:23:34):
Ago, back

Paul Thurrott (01:23:34):
In 90. So what this is saying, I don't know what L NATOs means, but this is what

Leo Laporte (01:23:38):
Happened. Was get injured

Paul Thurrott (01:23:39):
Wounded when wounded dead. So the government just came out and said, you know what? No, one's really at fault.

Leo Laporte (01:23:45):
No, no sanctions.

Paul Thurrott (01:23:46):
And they were like, you know, actually someone was at fault. Maybe we should figure

Leo Laporte (01:23:50):
Out this. This is something I love about Latin countries. Spains like this too protests. Yes. Signs everywhere. Everybody's pissed off.

Paul Thurrott (01:23:56):
So there's no pictures of this, but there was a protest that I made a video of. I'll put that up later, but

Leo Laporte (01:24:02):
Yeah, it's little protest. There's the giant soccer ball next to the Vatican.

Paul Thurrott (01:24:05):
Yeah. The, the Vatican replica in the back and the the football

Leo Laporte (01:24:09):
In the front. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:24:11):
You gonna have priorities?

Leo Laporte (01:24:12):
Priorities. What fun? What fun? I think you're having a great time is so this is not your neighborhood. This is just a, a,

Paul Thurrott (01:24:20):
No, this is, this is the center,

Leo Laporte (01:24:22):
But it's walking distance. Yes or no.

Paul Thurrott (01:24:25):
Yeah. You have to take the car. Well, you would probably, I mean you would want walk. Well it's a 10 minute drive. Yeah. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:24:30):
Yeah. Very

Paul Thurrott (01:24:31):
Nice. I mean, we have pictures of the area. What

Leo Laporte (01:24:33):
Camera are you using?

Paul Thurrott (01:24:35):

Leo Laporte (01:24:38):
Staying on sh on the iPhone.

Paul Thurrott (01:24:41):
It's a it's a modern smartphone of a certain variety.

Leo Laporte (01:24:45):

Leo Laporte (01:24:48):
All right. Let's take a little break. I wanna talk about our sponsor new Relic and then the back of the book. Paul's tips, Mary Jo's code names or enterprise picks. And of course, some beer too. New Relic, a name you should know if you're a software engineer, you name me really should know. You've probably gotten that middle of the night phone call, right? Where? So, you know, you're, you're asleep. You're comfy. You got your socks on and nothing else. And your phone buzzes with an alert and suddenly you're on duty. There's something broken. You know, your mind's already racing. What could be wrong? Is it the back end? Is it the front end? Is it global? Is it the server? Is it the network? Is it the cloud provider? Do we have slow running queries? The worst one? Did I push a bug?

Leo Laporte (01:25:35):
In my last deploy. Now you got your whole team. They're scrambling. They're moving from tool to tool. They're messaging back and forth. They're desperate. They're trying to fi fix the issue. And the clock is ticking. The boss is gonna get up in a couple hours. What is going on? If only you had new Relic, according to new Relic, only half of all organizations have implemented observability for the networks and systems observability. The ability to look at your network, wherever it is across silos across into the cloud. And see what's going on. This, this report showed how maintaining network observability is a big issue for companies around the world, but not companies using new Relic. New Relic is one product with 16 different monitoring products inside. You'd normally you'd buy 'em separately. But when you have 'em all at once, you get application monitoring APM, which means, you know exactly what's going on with your apps, your microservices, if you use Kubernetes, you'll love pixie instant Kubernetes, observability distributed tracing, which means it goes, you know, right through those walls.

Leo Laporte (01:26:46):
And you can see no more guessing. You'll see exactly what's going on. See all your traces without management, headaches, fine and fix issues fast. You've got network performance, monitoring, dish, those data silos for a system-wide correlated view and a whole lot more. That's just four of the 16 tools that come with new Relic. More importantly, you can pinpoint issues if you need to down to the line of code. So if it is that commit <laugh> from last night, you can know exactly what went wrong and fix it quickly. Maybe before alerting anybody else just go, oh, whoops, all done back to bed. That's why the dev and ops teams at DoorDash use new Relic and GitHub uses new Relic and epic games uses new Relic more than 14,000 other companies use new Relic to debug and improve their software. Observability is the last stage. The last most important stage in enrolling out a product, right, is being able to see how it operates in C2.

Leo Laporte (01:27:48):
Whether you run a native cloud startup or a fortune 500 company, it just takes five minutes to set up new Relic in your environment. Now I hope I've got you wanting it now. Here's the good news. It's free. You know that next middle of the night calls just around the corner, new Relic can solve that problem. Get you back to bed fast and you get access to the whole new Relic platform. Plus 100 gigabytes of data free every month, free forever, no credit card required. So@Theveryleastyoushouldberightnowgoingtonewrelic.Com slash windows and getting installed. So at the very least, you've got it. N E w R E L I And of course, you know, their hope is you're gonna wanna roll it out for the whole enterprise for all the engineers. Everybody's gonna have new Relic and that's great. That's great. But right now free forever, the whole platform and a hundred gigabytes of data free per month.

Leo Laporte (01:28:43):
It's a great, I mean, that's a great trial offer except it doesn't stop, right? It goes forever. New, new Rick con five, who works in it says my heart's starting to race. <Laugh> he's at those calls. What do I do? What do I do? New rec count. Five's gonna be on the cruise. Paul. I can't wait. Cruise.Dot TV. See if there's still some openings we're going in two months, Paul and Stephanie's first cruise. So it'll be fun watching him hang over the railing. <Laugh> <laugh> no, they're, you're gonna, you guys are gonna have so much fun. It won't be your last I think. And we are thinking about things we gotta do. We have to think Paul, about what we're gonna talk about. We have an event, you know, where we're supposed to get on steps and talk. I don't know. What do you want? You wanna talk about the history of windows and I'll just nod

Paul Thurrott (01:29:42):
<Laugh> geez. No,

Leo Laporte (01:29:44):
I could. I know I'll sit on the corner of stage and install Linux and anybody who brings their computer up and then you can talk about windows <laugh> no,

Paul Thurrott (01:29:51):
This may be a more hostile territory. I think it is.

Leo Laporte (01:29:53):
It's gonna be more windowy than, than not, I think because yeah, rich, Campbell's gonna be on board and Rafael, so it's gonna be a great, I can't wait. It's gonna be so much fun. Yeah. Polar bears. No, I don't think polar bears, regular bears. Oters regular bears, regular, just regular red in the mills. Bears, salmon or

Paul Thurrott (01:30:13):
Helicopters and sea planes,

Leo Laporte (01:30:15):
Sea planes, bald Eagles, dog sleds, dog sleds. And the unmarried men walk, which I'm looking forward to.

Paul Thurrott (01:30:21):
All I, all I'm looking for is walk around a town and need a crab or something.

Leo Laporte (01:30:25):
Oh, there'll definitely be that. There'll definitely be that. Yeah, can't wait. It's gonna be a lot of fun. July 16th through the 23rd, if you wanna know more, it's gonna be fun now to the back of the book, Mr. Paul Thra.

Paul Thurrott (01:30:42):
Yeah. So where am I?

Leo Laporte (01:30:48):
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to jump you. You want me to stall somewhere? I talk about,

Paul Thurrott (01:30:51):
It's shocking that this came up because it's not like we do this the same

Leo Laporte (01:30:54):
Way every single week. <Laugh> 

Paul Thurrott (01:30:56):
<Laugh> so this came up, I feel maybe a week or two ago, but we had mentioned this book after Steve, which

Leo Laporte (01:31:03):
Is oh, Kurt MLE. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm interviewing him. We're gonna do a special triangulation what'd you think?

Paul Thurrott (01:31:10):
Okay. I think this is the best business book I've read in years and is one of the very best books about apple in particular and is literally the, because it's really the only one, but the definitive take on the post, Steve jobs era. Oh, nice. I'm fascinated in the history of certain companies, obviously Microsoft, Google, and apple among them. And I, this is, is fascinating to me. The number of things that I don't think anyone has ever heard of outside of the company in, in this book is incredible. Things like Scott Forstall sounding an early warning on the Antennagate problem, cuz he was having that problem, his team, who's doing the software for, you know, iOS for the phone wasted months, trying to figure out thinking it was them when in fact it was the hardware, oh my God. And him going to Steve jobs and Johnny Ivan saying, Hey, this is completely screwed up. We need to fix this. And they're like, no, we love this design deal with it. And then pretending in public,

Leo Laporte (01:32:04):
Thank you, Johnny. That

Paul Thurrott (01:32:05):
It was

Leo Laporte (01:32:06):
Bye. Bye Johnny. A

Paul Thurrott (01:32:07):
Lot of form over function stuff. That's fascinating to me, of course, first all doesn't come out that well either he wouldn't have, you know, apologize for maps and then he was out. But there's just a lot of the tax of Eva Asian stuff is amazing. The battles between, well, between form and function, frankly, the Johnny ive. I, I feel like with a lot of people they're the right person, right time, right place for a while. And then they aren't, you know? Yeah. And I think Johnny ive was necessary for the early success of the second phase of apple with Steve jobs, you know, with the iMac and the, the, the devices and all that. I actually think this, the work he did to get rid of the tired old UI and iOS when he took over software was important and very actually kind of windows phone like frankly and was great.

Paul Thurrott (01:32:55):
But there was a real thinness over quality issue that they, you know, obviously the keyboards and the, all the, you know, the various issues they had mm-hmm <affirmative> and I think he kind of outstate his welcome a little bit there for sure. It's a fascinating book. I, and, and I know a lot of people listening, this probably can't stand apple and like, why would I ever want to read anything about this? Apple is just a fixture in the modern, you know, well, <laugh>, society's the biggest company in earth, but as far as like personal competing goes, you know, they're, to me, they're one of the big three. And I think it's important to understand this history, even if you don't intend to ever use an apple product, because it influences so much else outside of apple.

Leo Laporte (01:33:29):
Well also the through line of Tim cook versus Johnny I is, is a bit fun sounding. I

Paul Thurrott (01:33:35):
Am already,

Leo Laporte (01:33:36):
I, I get a copy of it before the interview. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:33:39):
Yeah. It's 

Leo Laporte (01:33:40):
Otherwise I'll be asking you to do it to <laugh> Tim

Paul Thurrott (01:33:43):
Cook's Tim. Cook's a tough one because in some ways he's, he's like the Steve baller of apple in that he was a, you know, well, not a salesman, but he was not an engineer, not a designer. He didn't have any hands on anything with apple products. He understood that, but he was really good at the, you know, process. And he was really good at costs and supply chain and, and, you know, that might ultimately become an Achilles seals of his, with all the stuff going on in China. We'll see. But not a lot going on there in the design product sense and nothing, literally nothing actually. But he turned it into the biggest company in the world. I mean, that was all him really. It's, you know, all these people are a little complex, but

Leo Laporte (01:34:22):
It's an epic story. I, I can't wait trip.

Paul Thurrott (01:34:24):
It really is. And, and

Leo Laporte (01:34:27):
Trip milk will write for the New York times. He will be on a special edition of triangulation Thursday, May 19th. So it's a week from tomorrow. One 30, it's a great book, four 30 Eastern. I can't wait to read the book. I'm gonna have to rush and get a copy. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:34:43):
I can't believe how much I learned. And I, the, the Apple's history through Steve jobs is well understood. It's been written and rewritten and rewritten. There are chapters of the Steve jobs biography that I listen to in audible again and again, and again, you know, the creation of the iMac, the creation of the iPhone, the iPod, et cetera. Like those things are just, I mean, these are cases

Leo Laporte (01:35:04):
To lived through them business. Yeah. And we lived through them.

Paul Thurrott (01:35:07):
This is as important and there are no stories about it. <Laugh>, you know, except now there are, so I, I, this is it. I mean, this

Leo Laporte (01:35:15):
Is it's funny. It's well written. The three of us are always saying how much we wish there were more books like this. G Pascal Zachary's show stopper. Yeah. Show stopper, for instance, which was just a classic, I think of Tracy, kiters the soul of the new machine, these books about, you know, this moment in time, when, when, when things happened that that changed, everything are, are for people who in this industry just fascinating. And we've been Beon for a few years that there isn't, hasn't been another one like that. And I think it sounds

Paul Thurrott (01:35:47):
Like because publishing is like any other business, right? They, you go through these phases. Microsoft was the biggest thing in the world during the antitrust cases. And so all of a sudden there were all these books about bill gates and Microsoft and whatever, cuz people wanted to know more about this company. I think when apple was ascendant under Steve jobs, everyone wanted to know more about that. Yeah. Google, you know, went through that phase. I think today, these books are about like Lyft and WeWork and Uber and

Leo Laporte (01:36:12):
Know don't care kinda. I, I,

Paul Thurrott (01:36:14):
I, I don't either. I don't care. I couldn't care less. I'm not, I'm never gonna read a book about Facebook. I don't care.

Leo Laporte (01:36:18):
Nope. Steven Levy.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:20):

Leo Laporte (01:36:20):
Very good one, but it's just hard to read. I don't care.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:22):
I don't care. I don't care. But I love that someone wrote a book about one of these companies, they still think are so important. Well, you know, the importance is undeniable, but there just isn't anything there. And now there isn't it's so it's amazing how much new there is in it.

Leo Laporte (01:36:35):
And I, I agree with you, it's historic. It's a, it's a, it's a an amazing time. Yeah. After Steve, how apple became a trillion dollar company and lost its soul by tr trip, Kel, and again, be talking to trip on a week,

Paul Thurrott (01:36:50):
Not to, not to go on a night. One of the little anecdotes about apple is that because they're so humongous, you run into that law of big numbers kind of problem. Yeah. So, you know, we talk in the Microsoft space about how for any business to be viable has to be what we call a bill, a billion dollar business, right. A billion dollar run rate in a year. So you could have 250 million a quarter if that works out your billion dollar business. Okay. That can go forward at apple. After, after the iPod iPhone iPad, that number 20 billion, 20 billion was the number and there was no such product and they couldn't come up with a product that was gonna do it. They thought their watch would do it. It didn't even come close. Wow. And the thing that's kind of saved it for Tim cook was he realized being a businessman that the future was probably not gonna be one, any one big thing, but some combination of things and that apple watch plus services could make a ton of sense. And that's what you see now at apple. And I don't know what sir, I can't, I don't know apple numbers off the top of my head, but Apple's services business. Oh, huge. Gotta be closing on, on being the second biggest business I have.

Leo Laporte (01:37:52):
Yeah. It's gotta that's exactly. It is the second biggest business after I find oh, it

Paul Thurrott (01:37:55):
Is. Alright. So it's I know it's double dig. Billions per quarter probably. Yep. It's it's absolutely a 20 billion. <Laugh> like, it's, you know, it's crazy. It's way more than that. So yeah. They figured it out.

Leo Laporte (01:38:05):

Paul Thurrott (01:38:07):
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:38:08):
Now speaking of impressive, epic was really mad at apple and yanked fortnight. Yeah. 

Paul Thurrott (01:38:15):
Well, apple yanked fortnight, right? Because app put an in game thing that bypassed Apple's payment system. Right,

Leo Laporte (01:38:21):
Right. They did something that caused apple to yank them. <Laugh> that's probably the best on purpose. Yeah. Yeah. On purpose.

Paul Thurrott (01:38:27):
Yeah. God bless, you know, God bless

Leo Laporte (01:38:29):
God. Bless them. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:38:30):
So anyway, the, the problem is Fortnite is one of the most popular games in the world, obviously, but it's not available on any of Apple's platforms. <Laugh> right. So Microsoft has this thing called Xbox cloud gaming, which I mentioned earlier, this is a feature of Xbox game pass ultimate, which is a 1499 per month subscription service. And it lets you stream games to mobile devices, including iPhones and iPads. It does it through the web because apple, you know, and in the same category of being apple wants to get a pre a per game, vague on everything that Microsoft does through this service and or Microsoft said no. So it goes through the web, but it works fine. And Is it Microsoft

Leo Laporte (01:39:08):
Is past, is it fast and fluid? Does it really feel like you're playing

Paul Thurrott (01:39:11):
Needle? I don't know. Are you trying to hurt me? What do you <laugh>?

Leo Laporte (01:39:15):
I just cringe said that like, no,

Paul Thurrott (01:39:18):
Just had a mini start. Thanks.

Leo Laporte (01:39:20):

Leo Laporte (01:39:22):

Paul Thurrott (01:39:23):
So it's, it probably is what you said it is, but The thing is to get this, to work on an iOS or, or a, I should say an iPhone or an iPad, you have to pay for the subscription. Right? So what Microsoft did this past week was they teamed up with E epic games to make Fortnite available via Xbox cloud gaming for free,

Leo Laporte (01:39:44):
No subscription charging needed nothing.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:47):
They're just doing it for free. So you can play this one game via the service for free. And that means they brought it back to the iPad and the iPhone bypassing all about the stupid

Leo Laporte (01:39:55):
Controls. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:39:57):
And they're not taking a scent for doing it. They're just doing it for free. Oh

Leo Laporte (01:40:00):

Paul Thurrott (01:40:01):
Yep. So I, oh, nothing in business is truly altruistic. I get that. I'm not an idiot, but I love, I love this kind of thing. Microsoft supports epic and its legal battles against apple and Google cuz they're having the same problem with Google too. So it's not just the iPhone, I should say. That's kind of the headline, but this means you can play Fortnite anywhere over Xbox cloud gaming for free, without being a

Leo Laporte (01:40:24):
Nice, nice, nice, nice,

Paul Thurrott (01:40:27):
Awesome. Also just a, a second quick quickie app pick duct go today announced a privacy essentials extension for Chrome, which is hilarious, right? Which blocks Google topics and fledge, which Google's new instruments for tracking and targeting its users. So <laugh> go tech go, of course is like, look, we think you should use our stuff, but if you do use Google Chrome they allowed us to put the succession in their store for some reason. So you could actually exist to block Google tracking stuff, which is, you know, not a horrible idea. So

Leo Laporte (01:41:03):
Yeah, go for it. Yep. Mary Jo Foley enterprise pick of the week time.

Mary Jo Foley (01:41:10):
Okay. So I have two, my next two picks are also build related. One of them is about the Microsoft store. So if you search for store in the session list of build, you can see Microsoft's gonna talk about the store quite a bit. In fact, in the Panos penne session, I think this new they're calling it, the open store is going to be mentioned and the reason they're calling it, that is because it's not limited to UWP apps anymore. Right. And Microsoft's made it to 1 32 apps can be in there, PWAs, all different kinds of apps. So that's gonna be a big theme. And the other store that's gonna get mentioned are the store for business and store for education, which people may remember. Last summer, Microsoft finally admitted they were going to discontinue at that time. They said, yeah, we're gonna have some kind of a, a replacement for them basically involving package manager and in tune slash endpoint manager. And it looks like they're going to describe what this is in depth at build and explain to you if you're right now using the store for business or the store for education, where, where they're gonna guide you to go next. So if you're somebody who cares about the store build might have a lot of information for you.

Leo Laporte (01:42:27):
Interesting for EDU. Yes, as well. Nice. And I am in the, I'm gonna have a Hank for a code name.

Mary Jo Foley (01:42:36):
<Laugh> yeah. So you can tell, I've been studying the build session book over the past few days. <Laugh>, there's a new code name in there Haven, and this is a funny code name because Microsoft used the code name Haven a long time ago for a, an operating system research project. But this Haven has to do with bringing Kubernetes to the edge. They've got something called project Haven. It's about making it so devs can bring their containerized windows and Linux applications to hosts at the edge. So when I'm saying edge here, I mean edge computing, edge devices, I don't mean, you know, edge the browser. The reason this matters is Microsoft and other companies talk a lot about wanting to bring processing power out to the devices at the edge to reduce latency and make things work better. So they're gonna talk, I'm sure at build about things like machine learning, image processing and all these apps that do intensive computing at the edge. And so if you're thinking about those apps, one thing you may want is to have Kubernetes be able to manage those apps. So listen at build for project Haven

Mary Jo Foley (01:43:49):
New code name.

Leo Laporte (01:43:51):
Okay. Now Mary Jo has done something, I think wonderful to honor Mr. Paul tht your beer pick of the week.

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:04):
Yes. so there, you know, craft beer in Mexico, it's starting to be a thing, but it's not really a thing. Mexico actually has a ton of beer and they happen to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest exporter of beer in the world really, which is kinda an interesting

Leo Laporte (01:44:19):
Cause a Corona

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:20):
Probably, huh? Yep. Corona and Negro made and all those different beers that you there's good. There's actually, those Pacifico's Pacific.

Leo Laporte (01:44:27):
Good. Yeah. Had some good beers. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:29):
They have some good beers, but in the us,

Leo Laporte (01:44:31):
But they're big. They're not crafts.

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:33):
They're big conglomerates. Yeah. They're not really craft. Right. But here in the us, there's this trend that's been happening for the past couple years of breweries creating something called Mexican lagers. So what they're doing is they're taking yeast and hops and trying to recreate the style of beer that you get in Mexico, but how would

Leo Laporte (01:44:52):
You characterize a Mexican LAGR? What is the, is it

Mary Jo Foley (01:44:56):
So, so usually not very hoppy yeah, more more like using German yeast very low a B, but still kind of bright something that works well with spicy food and is something you could drink in a warmer climate. Nice. Not like a double IPA or something like that, that doesn't really lend itself to that. <Laugh> yeah. Yeah. So there's a brewery in Seattle that I've been to a few times called lowercase brewing. They're in a neighborhood in Seattle called south park and they have a very big Hispanic population in that area of Seattle. And so they have a beer lowercase brewing has one that they call Mexican logger and because their name's lowercase brewing, they spell it with a small M and then all capital letters. Of course, Mexican LAGR. Yeah. So they use German yeast. They make a Vienna style LAGR beer out of it. It's it's a little bit Amber in color. And it's just, you know, if you know, like the nice refreshing light Mexican lagers, this is an example of that. And the interesting thing about this is if you go to many breweries in the us right now, they're all making Mexican loggers. Interesting. The thing, huh? Yeah. Huh. But this is an honor of Paul and Stephanie getting a place yeah. In Mexico. Woohoo.

Paul Thurrott (01:46:11):
So thank you. <Laugh> 

Leo Laporte (01:46:14):
Have you Harley just Stephanie. Paul is not on the deed.

Mary Jo Foley (01:46:17):
Yeah. Right. They're not actually married. I heard so,

Leo Laporte (01:46:20):

Paul Thurrott (01:46:21):
It's listen, if there was gonna be one name on the deed, it wouldn't be mine. <Laugh> There is a, there is a place right down from where we bought that's called falling piano, which is a, like a local brewery in Mexico city sedan say all, have a name. Nice. We haven't been in it, but oh, I'm sure we have a cool,

Leo Laporte (01:46:37):
I mean, mezcal, every corner has a mezcal craft distillery, so I'm sure there's craft. I mean, they, I bet.

Mary Jo Foley (01:46:46):
Yeah. Craft beer is coming. Is

Leo Laporte (01:46:47):
Coming. I bet you anything. Oh,

Paul Thurrott (01:46:48):
For sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Mary Jo Foley (01:46:51):
It's just not as predominant as here. Like somebody I know said craft beer. Mexico's like, it was in the us like 10, 15 years ago. Yeah. That makes sense. Like that's where they're at.

Paul Thurrott (01:46:59):
Well, because you know, Mexico is like Spain or Portugal or wherever where it's, it's warm and the beer tends to be little, really light laggers. You know, we

Leo Laporte (01:47:07):
Also have PK. And have you had any PK yet? 

Paul Thurrott (01:47:10):
Yeah. I don't pool. Case's not,

Leo Laporte (01:47:12):

Mary Jo Foley (01:47:12):
Like P what is pool? K

Leo Laporte (01:47:13):
Not. Okay. It's the pre

Paul Thurrott (01:47:15):
Oysters and, and

Leo Laporte (01:47:17):
No, you need a Mecal oysters. Yeah. PK is the precursor to to Mecal. So it's a lighter, okay. Brew.

Paul Thurrott (01:47:25):
Got it. It's the thing you would skim away normally and make the animals here.

Leo Laporte (01:47:28):
<Laugh> no, it's

Paul Thurrott (01:47:29):
Delicious. But someone has decided fruity that it's artisanal. It's,

Leo Laporte (01:47:32):
It's fruity, it's fruity. It's slightly fermented. But the thing is, it's about the same ABB as beer. So I have, and it's, it's a traditional working man's drink. So I have a feeling that's partially one of the reasons for not, you

Mary Jo Foley (01:47:43):
Know, jumping somebody on the discord. One of our friends who knows about Mexico, he said, no, Paul has the wrong idea. It's very tasty pool cake.

Leo Laporte (01:47:51):
<Laugh> oh, I love pool cake. Okay. Yeah, yeah,

Paul Thurrott (01:47:53):
Yeah. Listen, I'm Mary Jo knows better than almost anybody. I'm not afraid of trying things. And you are not like lots of things that most people would not eat, but I, I don't like

Leo Laporte (01:48:04):
Okay. Sweet. And I think that's probably the real, yeah. The real problem

Paul Thurrott (01:48:06):
For Paul. It's a consistency problem.

Leo Laporte (01:48:08):
Yeah. It's also a little weird

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:10):
Thick. Is it thick?

Leo Laporte (01:48:11):
Yeah. It's thick. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:48:14):
It's gross.

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:15):
<Laugh> it's like a fermented beverage. I

Paul Thurrott (01:48:18):
Don't like, I don't like mescal either because it's smokey. I'm just not into smokey things, but right. But Stephanie likes it. You

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:24):
Know, Leo, I have to remind you of something before the show ends for

Leo Laporte (01:48:28):
Micah now would be a good time.

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:30):
Yes. he said, say the word, Scott Hanselman.

Leo Laporte (01:48:34):
Oh, I forgot. I forgot. Scott, Hanselman's gonna be on tech news weekly tomorrow because, and I don't know if we talked about this. He was instrumental in opensourcing

Paul Thurrott (01:48:47):
Yeah. 3D movie maker.

Leo Laporte (01:48:48):
3D movie maker. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:49):

Leo Laporte (01:48:50):
Yep. And so mic has booked him tomorrow on tech news weekly. Oh, nice. We all love Scott. Everybody loves

Paul Thurrott (01:48:56):
Sarah. Yeah. Scott's great. Super cool. It makes you tell, tell him, we said hi,

Leo Laporte (01:49:00):
He's a good guy. All right. 

Mary Jo Foley (01:49:01):
And ask him to give you a little preview of what he's doing at build. Oh, that sounds pretty cool.

Leo Laporte (01:49:06):
Okay. Did you get that Micah ask him about build.

Paul Thurrott (01:49:09):
Yeah. You're probably not gonna get

Leo Laporte (01:49:10):
Much of it. Couple of years ago, he was part of the build keynote and it was for his house and it was so much fun

Mary Jo Foley (01:49:16):
Was so great. He did, he did a great job with that. He's

Leo Laporte (01:49:19):
So nerdy. That was wonderful. Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (01:49:20):
It was so awesome. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:49:22):
We, we really like Scott, so yeah, I think that's gonna be a great story. The open sourcing of windows, 3d movie maker. Mm-Hmm

Paul Thurrott (01:49:29):
<Affirmative> cool. Yeah. No, that right. And that's gotta be from the, the late 1990s, right. Pretty old years ago.

Leo Laporte (01:49:35):
Yeah. And, and what profanities they had to remove from the comments, things like that. That'll be <laugh> yeah. That'll be really, really fun.

Paul Thurrott (01:49:43):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:49:44):
Nice. When is bill again?

Mary Jo Foley (01:49:46):
May 24th. The

Paul Thurrott (01:49:48):
Very end of the month. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:49:49):
So that is a Tuesday. We, aren't not gonna do the keynote upon advisement from our attorneys. No. Cause Paul and Mary Joe say it's, you know, probably nothing big, big

Paul Thurrott (01:50:00):
Don't hello. But, but don't,

Leo Laporte (01:50:02):
<Laugh>, I'm blaming you. No, no. I mean, we'll do we do the hardware event, but they probably aren't gonna announce any new hardware. Right. I mean, honestly, I feel like we could have skipped Google IO to, except they did announce some

Paul Thurrott (01:50:14):
Hardware. I'm surprised. You're so down on that, I, I, I was, I thought it was kind of cool. I liked that they were finally back in person.

Leo Laporte (01:50:19):
Yeah. Well I did too. I mean, it was all, it was all at Google's. Yeah. But 

Mary Jo Foley (01:50:23):
Well we, and we can give you the whole wrap of builds. Well,

Leo Laporte (01:50:26):
That's the thing the next

Mary Jo Foley (01:50:27):
Day we'll be on the next day.

Leo Laporte (01:50:28):
Exactly. So windows week on the 25th, that will be your time to get everything important out of

Mary Jo Foley (01:50:36):
Yeah. We'll be talking all enterprise. Boom. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:50:41):
I'll just remind everyone that build is a developer show and 

Leo Laporte (01:50:44):

Paul Thurrott (01:50:45):

Leo Laporte (01:50:45):
So Paul

Mary Jo Foley (01:50:46):
Has, hopefully he metaverse. Paul has he'll. It'll be good. He will he'll have a couple sentences. That's we'll let him talk a little bit.

Paul Thurrott (01:50:53):
Thank you,

Leo Laporte (01:50:55):
Paul Thurrott Mary Jo Foley, the dynamic duo of windows, Ray Portage, Mary Jo's at all about or is his blog, his publication, I guess I should say it seems to me to say blog that's okay. His, his sight

Paul Thurrott (01:51:12):
Didn't giving up caring anymore. I used to really bristle at the yeah. Yeah. Blog

Leo Laporte (01:51:16):
Thing. Yeah. No, cause it kind of sounds like you're in your basement. Your mom' excuse

Paul Thurrott (01:51:20):
Me, sir. I am an award winning. No, no. It's okay.

Leo Laporte (01:51:22):
Award winning award winning. I, I

Paul Thurrott (01:51:24):
Insist it's okay.

Leo Laporte (01:51:25):
It's okay. Thra, I become a premium member. You can read that whole windows programming history, which is great reading. Paul's book, the field guide to windows 10. His latest book is We do windows weekly every Wednesday around 11:00 AM Pacific. Normally it was a little late today cuz of Google. That's 2:00 PM Eastern time, 1800 UTC. You can watch or listen Of course club TWITt members have their own, their very own little clubhouse in our discord club. TWIT is seven bucks a month gets you add free versions of all of our show shows including this one, access to the discord and a special TWIT plus feed with all sorts of goodies that do not appear elsewhere. If you wanna know more about club TWIT, TWIT, after the fact, all the shows available at windows our website, which is, There's also a YouTube site with all the windows weekly shows. And of course, if you search for windows weekly in your favorite podcast app, you should be able to find it and subscribe and then way you'll have it whenever you're in the mood on demand, as they say, thank you everybody for being here. And we will see you next time on windows weekly.

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