Windows Weekly 933 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

00:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Hey everybody, it's time for Windows Weekly and a special show. Today, richard and Paul are both in Seattle for Microsoft's Developers Conference, build, and they will talk, of course, about the keynote which we streamed live on Monday. But a lot of big announcements Agentic AI, the theme of the show. We also have Windows News, xbox News it's a jam-packed Windows Weekly coming up next. Podcasts you love, from people you trust. This is Twit. This is Windows Weekly with Paul Theriot and Richard Campbell, episode 933, recorded wednesday, may 21st 2025, live from build. It's time for windows weekly, the show we cover the latest news from microsoft. My friends, there is news from microsoft at the build conference in beautiful seattle, washington. I bring you paul thurot from thurotcom, richard campbell from runners radio they're sitting side by side. Yes, put your phone down, paul, we've got a podcast to do oh, isn't it.

01:09 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's not ai this time, no no it's real, it's reached across the screen.

01:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's a real thing I have to say I really enjoyed monday's keynote. If you haven't seen it and it is on the twit plus feed for club members um, not public, but it is on the twit plus feed where, I should mention, we did the google keynote yesterday from io. We did the build keynote for microsoft on monday. We will be doing the apple keynote in a few weeks. All of that will, though, will only be club members, not because we want to, but because, uh, of takedown fears. Uh, apple has threatened us both on youtube and Twitch.

01:45
At this point, we decided not to take the chance, so we're doing it privately in the club If you're not a club member seven bucks a month, that's all it takes. You can just pay for the one month and get access to all three if you want, but the TwitPlus feed does have the build keynote, which I thought was really great. Paul and Richard joined me. I was very impressed, but we're going to get to that. But first a little word of warning if any blood is splattered on our hosts during the show today I just want to be clear.

02:17 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I take no stance on the israel palestine thing, but it it has there there's a lot of protesters.

02:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It has yeah, it's inserted itself into our lives here, and so it's been remarkable yeah, we saw, we heard a little bit at the uh keynote and that turned out to be a Microsoft employee who sent an email to everybody saying bye and then did it yeah, but so, but there are.

02:41 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
there are more stories, I guess is the way to say it. So, even even to that event. For example, if you watch that on the live stream, you saw and heard what we heard, which was Right. Just a little disruption, a bit of a pause on Sasha's part, kept going.

02:53 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, stumbled a sentence, nothing more.

02:55 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But I mean you should probably tell this story though, like what actually happened in that room that day.

03:05 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Because it's way more, it's way, yeah. So the the guy popped up in the middle, and so all the black shirts appear and start converging on him, and when they were just about to him, two more people went up the wings oh, this is.

03:13 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They were trying to get on stage.

03:14 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They were trying to get on stage and then other people appeared off the side and took those people out. Yep, wow, so, yeah, so there's a lot of security, it is a lot of security day one was like a military zone here.

03:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It was like police and tactical gear, like big trucks driving around is it all, employees.

03:31 - Richard Campbell (Host)
No, no, no, no, okay, because anybody can buy a ticket, right yeah?

03:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
it's a strange place to choose for a protest like well, it's here in seattle.

03:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's microsoft's hometown um microsoft is also accused of supporting israel with, uh, some of its azure capabilities, right, but microsoft itself says no, no, we, they're a regular commercial customer, you know, you're spreading hate speech on, uh, facebook and they're like, yeah, we're not doing it, they're doing it, you know like we, you know we provide the platform, you know that kind of thing, but right. So, uh, that day after I did the keynote coverage from the hotel room. So after that I wanted to get over to the convention center, which is right next to my hotel, so right around the corner. I walked. I wanted to go to the press room, which I was told was on the third floor, and there are probably 100, 150, maybe, protesters outside making a lot of noise, all the military like police stuff going on, kind of like Boston in 2013 or whatever, and um could not get in the building. Right, I spent the next 45 minutes, uh, walking around that block trying to get in the back, go through the garage, lots of security, blah, blah get inside.

04:37
I ran into um, uh, which is david ortno from the dot net team, up on maybe the third floor and as we were talking, these two security guards bursted out of a door and they're like we got people on the second floor. We got people on the second floor and wow, there was. There's actually been a lot of, uh, local protesting occurring, meaning like in a particular session maybe, or whatever it is. So I saw this, I saw this. I think it was the verge it was. Protesters have now interrupted Bill three times. I'm like no, it's closer to 25 or 30 times, actually a lot more than that. You just don't really see what. You just don't see it.

05:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So it's interesting because Google maybe locked it down better at Shoreline, but there were, as far as I could tell, no protests.

05:17 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Right. Well, there was there in their own facility there, right, so they have their own, you know they can well, they're not.

05:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're at shoreline, but it wasn't, I'm sorry, open to the public, right, yeah, well, in any event, this is day.

05:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
One was just crazy. I also. I'm not gonna.

05:30 - Richard Campbell (Host)
There's a point where they closed the doors. You couldn't get out, you literally couldn't get in or out like it was crazy the.

05:35 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
The protesters were being very aggressive to anyone with a badge on yep, and so they basically held all the the attendees inside while the police cleared the sidewalks on day two, tuesday, yesterday, I uh again, you know, head over to the convention center at whatever time, and this was much calmer outside, right, and I'm talking, this is, this is an. This is one example of like the, the stuff that just doesn't. It's not making the news, no one has seen it, you know, whatever. But I was standing on the corner right in front of the entrance to the uh convention center and talking to my wife on the phone, just catching up, you know, and you know people are coming and going in every direction. It's like, it's like a scene from like a, like a joke or a batman movie, like I, down the street, it's kind of a, it's kind of a little bit of a hill, I can see a woman in a nice suit, like really dressed up, holding two big, you know, sets of balloons. I froze there and okay, and uh, like light blue balloons, right, and it's something you would notice because it's unusual. But then you're like, okay, well, people have parties and maybe she's a work event, you know who knows. And so I didn't think about it again and I concluded this call.

06:42
I went through security, which is tedious, and I'm walking away, and maybe 10 feet away from security and I hear a commotion behind me, right where I just left, and I turn around and that woman has pushed past security. Let the balloons go, these banners come down. It's like free Palestine or whatever. And they're both setting off alarms, they're like, and so they're floating up into the atrium. It's like 100 feet. And then she ran back out and I'm like okay, it's like okay. So now there's these alarms going off inside the convention center, but just in that little area the security guards all run over. They're all looking at it like yeah, no, we're not gonna really get those down there.

07:18
Uh, you know, like they're like way up there and, um, I was like, okay, well, that's kind of weird. So I turned around and went up the stairs and then I thought to myself I swear to God I might have been 30 feet later. You can see the convention's just happening. People are coming and going and if you weren't right there, you didn't even know what happened. And, because of the way it happened and so quickly, no one made a video of it or anything, so you don't see it online, it just. But it happened and they disrupted it and so I could.

07:45
I was imagining, like five minutes later someone would leave a session, go out that entrance you know about the exit and and maybe register. There's alarms going off at the ceiling. But thinking like whatever, like you know, alarms go off, you're in a city, like, like what is it? But they did it specifically to disrupt, yeah, in that moment, and that's what's been happening, like there's been a lot of stuff like that and um, you know, of course this is a a charged uh subject in the united states right now.

08:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All over the world, and a lot of tech companies are getting a lot of heat because of their participation or involvement with israel. Um, but I wonder if we're going to see worse. Well from the anti-ai folks in a few.

08:29 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh, it's only a matter of time. This is like a science fiction movie made real right where it's um yeah the people.

08:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
People believe really strongly that ai is a plagiarism machine. It's the, it's the, you know. We had somebody on intelligent machines last week, emily bender, yeah, who basically, you know, is a puritan like Intelligent Machines. Last week, emily Bender, who, basically, you know, is a Puritan Like thou shalt not allow a witch to live. They think AI is witchy.

08:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So this is the part of the plot to Contact right the Carl Sagan book and then the movie where these religious people are like no, you can't go into space and try to find God or whatever it is you're doing, you know, like you're um. So I think we're going to see some. No, we definitely serious protests someone.

09:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is shocking to me that this much is going on.

09:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No me too today listen, I, I traveled for work right after 9 11. There was heightened security everywhere. No people on planes, you know, go to vegas and whatever. This is worse than that in the sense that it's more intrusive and in your face and I it's bizarre, like I've just never experienced this. I've gone you know, richard's gone to even more stuff than I have, like I, I've been to israel, like I, you know, I, I, I just have never witnessed anything quite like this.

09:39 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So these guys were very organized and they were quite aggressive.

09:42 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's surprising so the other thing we should. So, just real quick, someone said to me something to the effect of well, you know, they're against this kind of violence in palestine, so at least they're not going to be violent. I was like I don't think that guarantees that. But um, you know, I uh the notion that someone would be hypocritical on that note.

10:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't think it's that much of a stretch no, no, no, these things, you know, I've been parts of protests, uh, in the 60s and 70s against the vietnam warren. What I, what I learned? There was mob. Once you're in a mob, once the mob is doing something, you lose. All individual will yes and uh, and mobs will do things that, yep, I wouldn't have done just in the moment.

10:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, because, yeah, in the moment it's individual escalates and then Mobs have no conscience or brains.

10:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They just are mobs and it's very scary.

10:29 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so day two there was a second keynote, like Google does, like a developer keynote, and that was also disrupted, by the way, and no one even knew what happened if you weren't in the room, because that time you didn't even hear it happen.

10:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
No, no, jay was interrupted.

10:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They cut the feed. Yeah, oh, they cut the, they actually cut the mics because he was.

10:48 - Richard Campbell (Host)
He was very close to the front and very loud, I'm sorry. I think there was a moment where they just said shut the mics off, so jay just stopped and then when they cleared him, then they might get back on okay so I I'm speaking to folks here microsoft knew that this was probably going to happen.

11:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They were training all the speakers to, at all costs, just keep talking. Yeah, and they were told listen, if everything goes south, the teleprompter disappears. You're just standing there and whatever hundreds of people in front of you talk about your day, what you had for breakfast, just keep going. And the idea is, yeah, do not give these people a platform, don't give them what want, which is to disrupt the normal activities of the show to make their case right. And you know, I thought Satya did a great job with that, yeah, especially because it was like a one-second pause.

11:36 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It was literally just a stumble of a word, and then he just kept going right.

11:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is like Chicago in 1968. This is, and it reflects the deep divides in this country and the world these days.

11:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh, absolutely.

11:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And look, big tech is taking a lot of the brunt of this, and I don't think it's the end of it. I think there are many issues.

11:54 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think this is the beginning of it. Unfortunately, what happens is, you know, when you see this on the news or whatever, that gives other people ideas, you know, and then, and then it's like, oh, this is something we could do, we could do something worse.

12:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You know that kind of thing, so it's yeah, well, let's not give them too much time, okay yeah, no, but I just, you know, I the reason I wanted to highlight this is because it's not getting covered in the news this is incredibly unusual.

12:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean I mean unique really. For me I've never really experienced anything quite like this, and especially the microsoft thing and um, you know, it's like if you, whatever, wherever you land on this debate, it kind of doesn't matter, it's just, it's a. It's just a, it's a it. It has cast kind of a weird shadow over this show, like it's.

12:40 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's been very honest yeah, that's not the only shadow on this no, I know, I know.

12:43 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, there's other shadows.

12:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah Well let's talk about the other shadows.

12:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, I mean there's concerns about the future of the show, Although, you know, I talk.

12:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What are the concerns about the future, the other shadow of the show is the layoffs last week.

12:58 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This really seems to have hit the oh, of course six percent layoffs and mostly developers.

13:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It looked like three percent, it was six thousand people so six thousand three percent and this is another thing.

13:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
We've talked to folks here about that, obviously, and um, there there were there were speakers that were let go.

13:13
There's supposed to be at least one microsoft booth in the show floor, the area that was not manned because those people were all laid off. You know, wow, and uh, this was a. It's a weird timing. There are theories about this, but I was talking to a friend from Microsoft who was telling me that the only thing that he'd ever encountered that was worse than this was over 10 years ago, and it sounds like a crazy exaggeration, but he said that people were all everyone on these teams were given emails and they all had different instructions. So they talked amongst themselves. They're like, oh, what does your say? It's like what does your say?

13:47
And some of them were brought into a room as, I think, 100 people or so in a room standing there. Some guy gets up on the stage, reads the script and says, uh, all right, hr will be out in a minute and tell you what your future looks like. And then he left and it was like what is happening. But you know this time, um, and it was like what is happening, but you know this time, um, the the weird, random nature of it. The weird, uh, seemingly random, the the weird. It doesn't matter what your tenure success rate was or whatever. It was very random, was. It has caused people who maybe never worried about their future to suddenly think wait a minute, like anything is possible now, and it's that kind of doubt that I think is a huge problem, um, for the morale or whatever, of everyone at this company. Now it's like we're the most successful company on earth on many uh measures and they're being super aggressive.

14:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Um yeah, the timing was not good. They had the quarterly results results. They had a great quarter, yeah, and then they lay off 6,000 people.

14:47 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yep, so yeah, and in a way that seemed at once symmetrical, like every team was touched, but also arbitrary as to who it was.

14:56 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yes, a separate person had told me. He said look, you know, back in whatever it was February, they laid off low performers. These people had been warned well in advance, like that. The only issue there was that, unfortunately, some people had actually, I guess, turned things around. Yeah, but because it was so late in the cycle, their overall record was still kind of bad. So they, they were like but wait, I fixed myself and they're like no, you're out, you know, but this one was less, I don't know, like metric based. I'm not sure what you call this, not metric based, yeah, it just seemed to be.

15:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It was business based that they were. They were actually looking at the costs and you had specific no, not even that.

15:33 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Six thousand people in this equation it's like two billion a year. They did 10 billion in buybacks that quarter. I know like it's just not enough money to matter right, no, there was a weird. It almost felt like a countrywide warning.

15:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This could happen to you.

15:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, that's what it really feels like, but that destabilizes the company. That's what I'm saying.

15:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's what seems to be happening. That's what I don't understand. There's a lot of just kind of self-doubt that I've not seen here before, which is bizarre.

16:01 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I have time I tell I have 2011. Okay, that's the last time I said the company like that and, by the way, that might be.

16:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That might be what the thing I was just referring to might have been 2011.

16:09 - Richard Campbell (Host)
2011 was the time where everybody seemed more. One thing I noticed because I go to campus regularly was I was sitting in red west and watching the parking lot clear out at 5, 30. Yep, and you know, people used to work here 24 hours a day.

16:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They just came and went, oh my god so sunday night I went over to the campus for their little pre-show event. This is the original part of the campus, so it's like buildings one through eight or nine or whatever it is. It looks like space city over there. It's completely different.

16:35
These are the new buildings yeah, you wouldn't recognize it if you were used to the campus for many years. It looked like a college campus. This thing looks like a star wars set and, um, I had a, a friend who worked at microsoft for about 20 years, who came over afterwards and we drove around the campus and we were both kind of reminiscing like this is used to be here, this used to be here. We're like no, we couldn't figure out where we were at points. We're like this is completely different.

16:55
But the other half of that is that there are buildings they started right before the pandemic and they're just sitting there empty shells or like girders and like empty pits in the ground. And he was like you know, amy Hood's, like yeah, we're not finishing these, like we're gonna leave these things here, this, we're not spending money on this and it makes half of the campus look like a war zone. It's the weirdest juxtaposition of richest company on Earth. And they don't have the people to fill these buildings now, not because they don't exist, but because a lot of these people just working from home they don't have the, you know, not everyone's coming in.

17:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What's funny is a lot of ai teams were cut. Everybody was touched, everyone. Yeah, so somebody paul is telling me in the discord that the python team was cut on their way to the python convention so at the time it was stunning and you know I've heard stories of they were in a meeting.

17:43 - Richard Campbell (Host)
A VP appeared in the meeting, said you can wrap this up you need to wrap this up, yeah, like you and you need to go see HR right now and then dropped out of the call Incredible.

17:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So I was standing on the before the event. I was standing there doing something on my phone and Raphael came. He lives across the street. He came over with his wife. We were talking for a little while and as we're talking, I'm looking over this vast space Like the Microsoft campus is the size of a town. It's like incredible and it spans over the highway. It's this huge thing. And I literally at one point said, you know, I could see a guy like you know a mile away, coming up over the top of the. You know the little hill there. I'm like you know what this feels like little hill there. I'm like you know what this feels like.

18:27
This is like the, the beginning of one of those zombie movies where the world is completely empty and then you see a person in the distance and suddenly you realize they're running at you and they're like what's going on? And it's like a zombie, you know, and I was like there's no one here. I was like this entire space city thing was completely empty. I mean there were people in the building I was about to go into and him and I and his wife, but usually this stuff happening like people moving around, cars and whatever, and I was like there's no one here.

18:54
It's very. These things don't make sense together. Richest company in the world empty Richest company in the world. Buildings are never going to be completed. They have a geothermal thing, a structure, this giant yep, that was described to me as being a hole that goes down to the center of the earth. And I said you know, you're describing the plot of stranger things and this is really weird, like it's just a. There's something weird going on here. I don't, I don't know, I don't know what to tell you.

19:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's very strange the uh lead of Microsoft's CPython team, the core developer, matt Dretbaum, wrote on LinkedIn Microsoft's support for the Faster CPython project was canceled yesterday. We were all, minus one, set to attend the Python Language Summit at PyCon today and in fact notifications came out while we were en route to Pittsburgh. Oh boy, um. They also laid off a long time typescript developer. It hit languages for some reason, and ai I.

19:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But again, I think that speaks to the random nature of it in the sense that, like richard said, I think every group was touched by this. Like it was, they were just like, yeah, taking one here.

20:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We're taking one here, but you, you almost can't say that it was ai to blame for this, or can you? No, it doesn't seem like I don't think so.

20:12 - Richard Campbell (Host)
No, no, it definitely, and it's not. That's just the thing that's interesting. It's like it's not the money, it's not any given team, it's not anyone's performance, it's inexplicable the stock price was already up from the phenomenal quarter. The only thing I can point to is it's a it's to keep the workers afraid, that's not good it worked for the empire and star wars for a little while.

20:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean, I don't, it's, it's a very strange strategy to me. I well, this is, you know, when we um first talked about this last week. You know, the thing I would have said at the time, I think, is like, generally speaking, with whatever these types of things, you can point to something, say, look, there's a reason here, and you may agree with it or not, it doesn't matter, but this one, it's like I'm really struggling to understand the, the point you know, like what they're trying to achieve, because it just doesn't seem to be rational, yeah, you know, and well, and if, if it was to galvanize the, I think it did the opposite, because they seem very demoralized.

21:04 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Oh my God, yes, yep.

21:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And I yeah, like I said, it's weird to do it right before build, or maybe would it be worse to do it right after build. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.

21:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
The typical time to do this, it seems, would have been tied to the end of the Well, yes, right as their fiscal year ends and starts right in June, july, which is likely still to happen right, that's right.

21:24 - Richard Campbell (Host)
In July there will be shuffling, because there always is with the new fiscal year.

21:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I've heard before July, by the way, but yeah, there's going to be more. I mean, that's one thing I've heard consistently, like this is not the end of this, which speaks to that fear quotient. Again, this is yeah, just felt like it was like what is this going to stop? Like what? What point do we have enough people to do the stuff we're trying to do with games, you know, and, but now it's the company you know, not just, it's not the, it's not just games. Anyway, on that happy note, oh my god, let's talk about agentic ai actually I want to take a break.

22:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So just to clear your head, we could do that, yeah, unless you want to go right into it. All right, I well, I I have to say I really enjoyed the keynote on monday, especially compared to the keynote on tuesday google's keynote it was very different oh you said, and I think it's true, that it was very developer focused. They wanted to make it more developer focused and it felt that way and you think a?

22:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
lot of stuff um well, google does the thing that apple does, which is they have the keynote, which is a marketing event. It's a more public. They, right after it ended, they had a developer keynote right, which is what apple does. So I just real quick on that and I I was pre-briefed on a lot of the stuff that google announced, I thought. But then most of the stuff they announced in that first keynote I was not pre-briefed on. So I heard about all the developer stuff and some a few other things, but I, as they kept on rolling, like we're doing this, we're doing this, we're doing this, I was like what, what is happening? Like it's like I thought I had a handle on what they were going to announce and it went on for two hours of this is stuff we never mentioned, uh, to anybody. And I, if anything, I almost feel like they had too much stuff, like it was overwhelming that's.

23:12
That seems very Microsofty to overwhelm a keynote yeah, it was definitely shock and awe and um and and I think for them it was a message, because a lot of people still think they're behind in some way, and they were like, uh, in case it's not obvious, we are not behind so anyway, I I really enjoyed.

23:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The thing that stuck out for me was the chemistry. Uh, demo, they had a microsoft employee who was a chemist. Uh, show how they used a genetic ai to pull in all the scientific papers. They were looking for a new compound for cooling with no, and so they set the pardon me, no pfas right like no no, without pfas without those forever chemicals.

23:48
So they pull in all the scientific papers. They gave it the parameters, the ai went out, collected information, then generated some sample molecules which they thought would fit the bill. Then tested in the computer, right, tested the sample. Things came up with a molecule to try. They made it yeah, and they said this should work. And then they they showed dropping an xbox motherboard in there and playing forza and the motherboard stays cool. It was submerged in this newly invented chemical and then he said well, if it seems like a demo, don't, it's not this we, this is a. We did this right and that's right, he actually started walking away.

24:24 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh, I'm sorry.

24:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
By the way, that was real, like we just we just did that right now but what they were trying to demonstrate, not so much making new materials although that was kind of amazing but how a genetic ai can reach out and collect information for you. And there's two technologies. They talked a lot about MCP and A2A.

24:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, yeah, and the other half, well, yeah. No, you're right, I'm sorry. I was going to. There's a. Yeah, sorry, there's a related thing. I was, we were talking before the show and I was trying to remember who would come up with it. Yeah, that's the web stuff. But the interesting thing to me about that and we touched on this this briefly, I think, last week is that the big ai companies you know, so anthropic uh I almost said apple, just kidding uh google, um, microsoft, open ai, etc. Are agreeing on these standards right for the, which is so it's so.

25:19
It's to me such a relief, because this could easily have been siloed we if that would have prevented any forward progress, if Google had their own thing and Anthropic, openai, microsoft, whatever, had their own thing and like this would have halted all progress.

25:32 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It also speaks to. They're all vulnerable. Yep. Nobody has the confidence to say oh no, we're going to be able to do this end, to end ourselves, let's go. They're all trying to find ways to be successful.

25:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Apple tried and failed miserably Right. So, now they're talking to everybody.

25:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They could still get it right, but last year, sometime last fall I think it was Satya Nadella said that models, AI models, were a commodity.

25:55 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And I what was his quote? 1,900 of them in the foundry, now Over 1,900.

25:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yep, but I think the extension of that now is well okay. But but I think the extension of that now is well okay. But that means you're also a commodity, microsoft, because this is the if everything is AI, nothing is AI argument.

26:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, but they're making Azure agnostic right. In fact, Sam Altman and Elon Musk on the show. Well, we're going to get to that later, because that to me was very striking.

26:24 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Elon Musk is suing sam altman, open ai, over the future of that company. They're cross-suing uh, him and grock and whatever it is, and you put your whole company's future was resting on open ai shoulders for a while there and still right is right, practically speaking, and you put both of them on like not on stage, they're both video things. But I mean, who are we sending messages to here Like this? Is that's a crazy.

26:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, they're just.

26:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
it's a valid point to give them both airtime, is it Because, like you just said this, 1900 models are in the Azure AI Foundry, so now I guess we have two more in there, grok models. Why didn't we have any of those other people on?

27:00
stage those other people on stage. Why was that gonna be on for deep sea? But why would you put yeah, why would you put them on stage? What is is, are microsoft developers clamoring for grok models? I don't think so. I mean like, like, so there was a like. To me that was very much a message, uh, or a series of messages being sent in both directions, like um to sam altman, from sam altman.

27:21 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But I also thought really interesting, you know, if you knew if you knew you were going to be protesting, that was going to be the lead story, you knew putting Elon on the screen was going to be controversial. It's one way to control your lead story.

27:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
We could do something even stupider. We will refocus the news nicely If you think about it logically or you think about it just practically. Like I said, I don't think anyone was asking for this. I don't think it would have mattered to anyone.

27:46 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You didn't raise the stock price because Elon had three minutes on the screen. Nope.

27:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But there he was and wow, are you going to call this guy out? I mean, this was a message to the US government in some ways, if you think about it. I mean, which is part?

27:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
of-. Well, that's probably a wise thing to do, to be honest.

28:00 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, it's part of the strategy. We're racing forward. We don't want anything getting in our way.

28:05 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Right, and we've got a couple of billionaires with us.

28:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
A smart CEO at this point definitely appeals to Trump and says you know, hey, here's a million bucks for your inaugural committee or whatever. We talked about this yesterday at MacBreak Weekly when Trump was in Saudi Arabia with Jensen Wong and Elon Musk. By the way, he says to Jensen Wong I'm glad you're here, Tim Cook's not here, Wow.

28:33 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Tim Cook might have other problems if he went to Saudi Arabia or the Middle East or whatever.

28:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But this is the point I mean he's keeping score.

28:42 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, you think so. If you're a CEO, it's part of your job.

28:45 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Captain Revenge is keeping score, I mean, you know yeah, it is a little stunning to see how quickly these companies adapt to corruption, but that's what they're doing, they're adapting.

28:54 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean honestly, I think they formalize corruption. Really. I mean corruption at scale, you know, is their business model.

29:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's so funny when I it's so funny when I worked for years. I worked for a heart and we would get training every year on how not to bribe people. Like, don't bribe people in other countries, even if we'll help you. The business, you know it's against the. It used to be against the law in the United States. They've actually eliminated that. Yeah, sure Is it. You know, there was this sense of if you're a U S business, you're above that. You don't do that. And now there's this sense that and this is what happens, by the way, this is what happens with corruption is it doesn't take. People are very quick to say, oh, it's not illegal anymore, let's go Nice.

29:37 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You see, but this is business. We talk a lot about this with quarterly earnings that Microsoft but not uniquely is disclosing less and less every quarter. It's almost as if to probe and see how much they can get away with, and what they've discovered is they can get away with everything. Yeah.

29:52 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And even the shareholders aren't challenging them. You have invested in this company. You do not know how it's actually performing.

29:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, and you couldn't care less, because the thing is soaring and you're like, you know what? You just keep doing what you're doing. I'm not going to ask any questions, telling you you're making money. You should believe us. Yep, and that is not a healthy relationship, by the way, but that's yeah, that's our world. What other good news? Well, back to gentic ai.

30:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I know I'm so sorry. Uh well, politics is the order of the day apparently. Uh, in Seattle, microsoft very much behind this wants to do it. Apple or Google? Same thing yesterday at Google IO, yep.

30:31 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You can see how these companies line up right. Everyone needs the support of all the third party services, et cetera, so that's completely understandable. I think the big divide between Google and Microsoft is that Google has a lot of presence with consumers through really popular services Gmail, maps, photos, et cetera. Search, obviously, whatever, but the whole Google thing. Everyone understands that. And Microsoft's got incredible penetration in Fortune 500, especially but we'll just say commercial business whatever, government as well, any big organizations, and so the primary push with them from the beginning has been the Microsoft 365 part of it. Right, and that all makes sense, right.

31:09
This is, you know both these companies are going to do fine, you know. The question is you know, how do they succeed otherwise? So I think Microsoft has a better infrastructure story and in the sense that well, or even infrastructure history, maybe. So they're all their work with Azure and the cloud has really set the foundation for this stuff, so they're going to get a lot of third parties support. You won't see the little badge, you know running on Microsoft. It's like designed by Apple in California but made in China. It's like designed by a random company dot dot dot but hosted on Microsoft.

31:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Like you're not going to see that, but they're going to, they're going to, they're going to get a big chunk of that. There's no doubt about it.

31:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh well, they propose using entra as an agent authentication technology microsoft's own authentication technology, which makes that smart, that's good yep, complete yeah and and through intune, by the way, which is the way that a lot of these smaller companies will do that. This is not the heavy uh infrastructure of the past. It's this cloud-hosted service that a company of any size could take advantage of so yes, yeah, and it scales really well.

32:09 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You've got five seats, it works. You've got 5 000, it works. That's right. So smart.

32:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So this nl web you were talking about is is designed to make it easier for websites to interact with your agent.

32:21 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So this this gets to the conversation yeah, so the microsoft cto, kevin scott, right, good guy, I guess. Uh, tends to ramble, you know, and there was that moment if he said himself I'm an introvert.

32:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I I hate doing this.

32:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Once a year I have to yeah, yeah, that was true a couple years ago, I'm not sure about that anymore, but but he, yeah, we get it. You're an intro, we're all introverts, um, but I, I, I would have interrupted him if I was on stage, like I said during the live coverage, which was like dude, I got this. There are two things that NL Web does that are super important. One is it allows you, as the operator of a website, to give your users a natural language way to interact with your site, right? So I have a horrible site search kind of a problem.

33:07
This, the ability to use this interface, like if you plug this stuff into like whatever website you have and your own users can do that. So maybe you have like a login system of your own and you have paid users or whatever it is that will work for you. But the other half of it is the interoperability With AI agents out of the web, and that's going to be the divide. I think a lot of sites are definitely going to want to do the first half of it and then it's going to depend on the second half. But, leo, I think before the show you would ask whether any website owner or whatever would want to kind of opt out of this or not use this system, and the answer in the end is probably no, because you are going to get locked out of the world.

33:48
Sure, if you do that like this might become the way that most people interact with websites. You know, we have this kind of very standard thing with a web browser and we type in a url, we do it, but like that might be changing and so this you know they keep comparing it to h HTML CSS, like this kind of just accepted standard. It's the way we do things.

34:06 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It works and they can do it against your will, like the show we did on Playwright MCP, where that's a web testing tool that you can use a prompt to go and strip anything you want out of a website.

34:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so this is a way for you to let you to open up your site to be stripped. It's a you know, but not I mean, I'm being strict, except you're going to be stripped.

34:26
It's just, you can do it against your will. You can join in, you have a choice, sort of. So this is where I was. I talked to Mary Jo at length yesterday on the phone and she asked me this she has a way of getting to a very insightful question, which you know is kind of a non-technical person I was surprised by, but she said. She said I don't know if you know, she's just like this is going to come out of the blue, maybe, but do you have any?

34:51
I thought open. I thought I saw something where open AI had invented this technology. But you don't see anything about that Like Microsoft's, like we invented it. And I was like Mary Jo, I, I was literally just looking into this exact thing. I was literally just looking into this exact thing. You're right.

35:03
Open AI, if you look it up, has announced this last year sometime or maybe even earlier, and what I found out was that this was actually invented by DeepMind at Google and there were three individuals I don't know if it's a patent or whatever their names are on it or something like that, but whatever the situation is, one of those guys went to Open AI. No, two of those guys went to OpenAI, one went to Microsoft and OpenAI did announce this, like some time ago, and Microsoft has now announced it like it's new and we're doing it, and this is another one of those things where I think there's multiple threads going on here. But I think the big thing here is that this is going to be an interoperability standard that all of these companies are going to agree to use and whatever. I think that if OpenAI, given the current climate, had come out with it, other AIs might have said, yeah, we're not doing that, and that Microsoft doing it makes it a little more palatable, maybe.

36:00
But also, for this thing to actually know it can't be a fly by night kind of done that they're flying, you know they're the most well-funded fly by night in all history, I guess. But, um, I think there's an interesting story there about that and I, as a person who does have a website, you know, I look at this and I'm like, no, this makes sense. I, I we're definitely, I'm definitely going to do this. The question is whether I do the second half of it, and I think we'll see how it develops, but I do think this is going to be a big deal. I think this is as big of a deal as the MCP stuff.

36:36 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This is like the Web 2.0. This is the mashup. Right Now it's suddenly mashup with prompts.

36:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
We're finally getting Hailstorm and the Microsoft thing from 30 years ago or 20 years ago, 25. Yeah, so, yeah, anyway, there's a lot going on, basically.

36:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Okay, weirdly exciting and dark at the same time.

36:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yes, yes, exactly.

37:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, I think it's great, and I guess this is what happens. It happens on the net too, when it's a nascent technology Right, and no one is the, as you said, no one owns it, everybody cooperates. Yeah, until such time.

37:12 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yes, exactly that somebody can dominate, but it's just the sense that nobody feels like they can dominate. I think it's good news.

37:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And we do have that history of the as a backdrop. You know this is super simplistic, but you know this site works best on internet explorer, or this site works back right on us. We can't, guys. We can't do that anymore. This site has to just work everywhere.

37:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, in fact, you probably won't be using a browser in this agentic world. You'll have your, your agent. Well, contact their agent, keep them busy.

37:43 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Uh, you know no.

37:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I mean yeah, right, and the the demo they did reminded me I mentioned this on our keynote of uh, the knowledge navigator video that apple did, I think in the 80s, yeah where a professor comes in and he's talking to his tablet. Yeah, it was john scully era. Yep, he's talking to his tablet and the tablet's an agent saying your mother called and uh. And he says get this professor online, show me the.

38:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And they did a demo that was very similar to that and I thought they weren't even actually getting close to this kind of agent 100 the thing is like the transitions are never like clean breaks, right, and so you were like we're not going to be using web browsers and like, yeah, yeah, probably in the future. That's true, but in the interim-. For a long time we'll be using it.

38:26
Yeah, there'll be some class of users that are older people maybe, that are used to this. Now, this is the way we interact. So you know Google and Microsoft both are putting all these agentic and AI features into their browsers. You, the world is whatever.

38:41
I can just make something up like Gmail and Gmail through the plug and play stuff on the back end with MCP and whatever else will, through Gmail, offer you the ability to do this thing, which is basically agentic, background tasks that are multi-agent and you don't really think about. You don't care. Why would you care as your user? It's like doing whatever it's doing on the back end, but you might actually launch that thing from what you think of as a website, right, and maybe if you're a Google person, you're doing it through Chrome and that's how you view the world. It doesn't really matter. I mean, you could do it through a low-code thing in Windows, you could do it through an application, like a native app. On whatever platform you do it from wherever, like it's, it's it's going to be everywhere, like that's kind of the point. You know it's going to be very pervasive really, I'm, I'm, I'm excited about this.

39:32
I'm not one of those people will be marching out front saying no ai um well, unless you wake up tomorrow and someone has created twit2.tv and it's all ai based and it's it sounds, sounds, it looks exactly like all of us, and then maybe you will, I mean, you know.

39:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Google, google. One of the things Google announced yesterday is they've made an app for notebook LM for both iOS and Android and of course I had played with it and I had given it like nine transcripts of security now and it and I said, make a podcast and it sounded just like Security Now, except it was this kind of nice guy and gal talking about the same subject.

40:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
The best demo, in a way, that Google I don't think they showed us on stage, but you can get Notebook LM and use it to get a summary of all the stuff that they announced at Google IO, which, like I said, honestly makes sense because there were a million announcements and so you it's. It's just a podcast that summarizes their own show right in their own app yeah it's, it's, it's like I'm a little concerned, I'll be honest.

40:35 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, it's uh very uh inception-y, yeah, yeah exactly a little concerned.

40:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There's a guy I guess he works at microsoft now. I'm embarrassed. I wasn't 100 sure I knew this, but orin thomas who came up like I did writing.

40:47 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I wrote for you know the same magazine and whatever, he's got almost as many books as you. Yeah, oh yeah, no, he might, he might have more.

40:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, he's very prolific, he's a great guy, smart, but he did. He did something like this as well, and I haven't seen it yet, but not the the main show floor. On the other side, um, there's a booth where he has like a little it's like an agentic projection and he's trained it on his voice and his inflections and all this stuff, and then he uses, like the whatever tool this you know he's like. Here's the story, but I'll summarize it make the points, turn it into a script, feeds it into the thing and, like it basically produces a podcast. That's a video of him talking, but it's not him and he's like.

41:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's like right, you know this is uh, just a matter of time before I am not here.

41:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's what I'm saying like I look, as far as you people know, we're sitting here together and the truth is richard and I are not even human beings. We've never met. We're too sloppy for yeah.

41:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, well, that's how you know, it's good, you know well, I honestly think that that's what it'll end up being that podcast won't be for information. Podcasts will be for companionship, and you don't want to. Contrary to what Mark Zuckerberg says, you want your friends to be real people.

41:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, you don't know my friends, I hope no. Yeah, you definitely don't want it to be me. I can tell you that, like you know, some like fake version of me.

42:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, not a fake.

42:01 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
We want the real Paul.

42:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He's really kind of a downer. Uh, and the real richard and the real whiskey. None of this fake whiskey, we want the real deal. Hey, we got whiskey coming up back in the book too. Lots more. Uh, we didn't even cover all the new ai stuff, so there's a lot more to come. Paul thurot, richard campbell are in seattle, along with 1 million protesters for microsoft build and we will have more. I should mention that all the cheers you hear in the background, that's not protests, right? No?

42:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
well, unless they're protesting. Github leo, it seems who would protest?

42:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
github the best.

42:34 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Thing ever they're going to give away, and so I think those cheers are each time somebody gets they're getting like an octocat or something.

42:39 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, a github chachki of some kind. Uh, oh, so you're near the github. You can see the little. What do you call it? Octocat, octocat, octocat. So I love the Octocat. The Octocat is like the eyes that are like you know, like a Hello Kitty or something, or whatever. That is yeah.

42:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All right. Well, more to come in just a bit. We're glad you're here, you all you winners and dozers. It's nice to see you, our show today brought to you by spaceship. I got a question for you why I do this.

43:10
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45:15 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Everything, everything is new. I don't even know where to start. So obviously the multi-agent I like that. They're finally using orchestration again. They're talking about that. I guess they're waiting for agents and multi-agents. You know we mentioned the enter ID integration, all that stuff and a web, et cetera. Most of the I would say most of the Microsoft 365 co-pilot stuff we knew about already, but now it's rolling out. So now it's. This is that wave. Two thing they announced back in April tied to that Microsoft 50, 50th anniversary, right. So this is all the.

45:50
If there's an ai feature that's out in the world from some other ai, microsoft has it too. So microsoft has co-pilot notebooks, which are basically the notebook, lm type stuff, and you know the, the and the podcast. But you know co-pilot podcasts etc, pages where you can go in and uh, interact with others and and know what do they say, ideate, and you know create and all that stuff, co-pilot everywhere, blah, blah, blah, agent store. You know there's all this stuff.

46:15
I I can't even keep track now of what's actually new here versus what was announced, you know, just before the show or a month or so before the show. But on the developer end you Copilot obviously integrated into or it can be integrated through an extension right now through Visual Studio Code and also Visual Studio proper and all the advances there. But they announced at this show that they're open sourcing, github Copilot in Visual Studio Code. That's really interesting and what that means is Visual. What that means is um, the way visual studio code to me is the way every application on earth should be, especially something like a web browser, where I feel like it should be this basic shell, and then you get like maybe you get a little menu where you're like I want this feature, I want extensions, yeah, through extensions, literally through extensions.

47:03 - Richard Campbell (Host)
There's a philosophical thing here too. Right that yep, that you know, vs code is very roll your own where Visual Studio comes with everything.

47:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's Battleship, it's the IDE right, it's integrated environment.

47:15
But so yeah, and this is, I think, going to be controversial. So what this means is that, instead of you deciding that you want GitHub Copilot and adding that extension, it will just be integrated into the source for Visual Studio Code, thus will be part of the product. Now it's protectionist, Yep, because now I think it has to do with Cursor and all these other things are going to, Because Visual Studio Code is an open ecosystem. Basically, Gemini could come in with their own extension, OpenAI could come in with their own extension and you can do the pair thing, where you have like a side-by-side interface or whatever.

47:49 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But I don't know why this. I already open Cursor and Visual Studio Code. I know I already do that. That's right, right, like. Why do you think I'm going to stop?

47:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yep, well, because maybe VS Code is now just part of it.

48:02 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You know, I think this is the theory, theory, yeah, I mean, it's never stopped using visual studio code, but the fact the way there's an extension are built in doesn't going to stop me using other ai tools no, that's right, right, 100, but.

48:12 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But. But, you're right, this is absolutely why they're doing it. So there are a lot. Well, cursor is an example. Cursor is built using visual suit code. It is visual studio code slightly modified, right? So it's electron, yeah, and you might see, you know there'll be some sorry, someone, yeah some, some person, some company, whatever, will make a version of code that will be github co-pilot less you know. You know this is going to happen.

48:35 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It could fork right, it's open source, that's. I'm really surprised that there's not more forking going on. In that sense, I mean lots of things I do get forked, but they're not like fork and actively developed instead of shown as an alternative.

48:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, but this generation doesn't work as much yeah, yeah, the kids these days um so um, you forking kids, uh, so I don't know, we'll see how that progresses, but I, I saw that I was like that's cool, why you know, so, why we know. I think we've come to, why I think we know, yeah, yeah and it's interesting. But I saw that and I was like that's cool, why so?

49:08 - Richard Campbell (Host)
why we know why I think we've come to, why I think we know why. Yeah, yeah, and it's interesting. Again, I'm surprised about the amount of insecurity in this space. The people, they're all afraid. They're trying to make advantages.

49:19 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's such big news when Microsoft embraces open source to any level. So, they do this visual code thing. It's an astonishing success story outside of the Microsoft ecosystem, right? Linux users, open source users, everyone's like we want to hate this company, but we love this thing. And then they do something like this and you're like, well, this is kind of why they hate you and we'll see. But you're right, someone who feels strongly about using Gemini or OpenAI or whatever it is, they will keep using it.

49:46
It's all free except for the tokens, but I think this is yeah, no, and that's what's neat about it. I I use github copilot pretty regularly. I've never run into a limit. I don't pay for it. It's kind of amazing. Um, so we'll see. They're also bringing github copilot agent mode mode to other ideEs, third-party IDEs like JetBrains, eclipse, xcode, apple thing. That's fascinating. So they're kind of hitting it on both ends, right? So in the same sense that anyone could use whatever AI with their editor, they're going to say well, you could use our AI with your editor.

50:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You know that kind of thing. At the same time saying no, our editor has ours built in, no matter what, that's right. So, same time saying, no, our editor, our editor has ours built in, no matter what, that's right, right. So they, they. It's a little hypocritical. It is going out and putting on everybody else's editor and then your editor no it's built into the code.

50:35 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I just take exception to one part of that. It's a little hypocritical. It's a straight up hypocritical. But no, you're right, I but it makes sense, um, okay, the other, yeah.

50:45
So when you think about github, copilot or any of these AIs, like in the types of uses that they might have or what you might use them for I've used them in very basic ways, you know, pointed out a method and say could you make this more efficient? Could you find bugs? Whatever it is, why does my coat suck? Well, that's a lengthy explanation. I've gotten very lengthy explanations of that, by the way, a little too hurtful. But AI at its heart, I think, the best general at a very high level.

51:15
It's like you can do it. You can use it for busy work. That saves you time, and I think one of the neat things that they're pivoting on right now is this kind of app modernization thing, specifically for NET and Java. For now, although I think it's going to just go to everything where you have this code base, it is whatever it is and it's like okay, so do a code assessment. We already do that. Do the code rewriting. You know where you make it more efficient, find bugs, et cetera, excellent. But now, okay, now upgraded to, let's say, like the latest version of NET, or maybe it's a native Windows app and you're like I wanted to have the Windows 11 UI or whatever it is, and it's like this stuff is actually very hard, or can be, or time consuming, and it's like, just set this thing up to go and do this in the background.

51:59
It will come back later, give you a new, like a forked to use that term again repository with all of its changes, documentation, explain exactly what it did, and then you can commit or agree to the commits as you go through it and say, yep, this one, yep, no, not this one. And this is an excellent use of AI, right, in the sense that developer tools, developer processes, et cetera, have emerged as the early winner for for, like ai, use cases. This is a little more specific. Like this is. I really like the. I really like this because I I don't do a lot of software development, but when I do it it's like this kind of thing and let me tell you, it's a nightmare well, and also that's what a lot of people are doing right.

52:43 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It is super you. You don't work on the same code base every day.

52:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You have to drop into a code base and oh my god, and that's a, and you're really hoping you're gonna be done that day exactly, or god help you.

52:53 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It wasn't even code you wrote right it's something that's been at the company and, let's face it, if you did write that code, it was a month ago it's not code.

52:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You're like, I cannot believe it.

53:00 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, yeah, I don't even know what's happening here you're like yeah, exactly, so no code is code you wrote, that's right, sadly, that's true.

53:08 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
What do you mean? I stack overflow, wrote it. What's the problem? The point is no, I don't, but anyway, that stuff to me is fantastic. So I feel like we've been talking for a long time and we've oddly glossed over a lot of the stuff we've built so far, but it's just so dense and so much. I think the way to handle this maybe is that a lot of this is are things that as they start actually happening, we're going to keep coming back to this stuff, right, so I guess we could shift to the windows stuff from build specifically, right?

53:45 - Richard Campbell (Host)
um, and some because windows. You know, there's not a lot of conversation about dot net at build, even though it's a developer show, right, but there is a lot of conversation about windows, which is fascinating. Which is fascinating because windows hasn't been talked about for ages, I know sure was this week we used to.

53:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
the reason we have, uh, this notion of a build bingo card is that when windows was the center of the universe, it was always like, well, what's going to be the most important thing? But then we saw over time that Windows was getting edged off the board, and we've had years where Windows was not even a thing.

54:14 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, once Azure was the focus, the conversation on Windows went away.

54:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But now it's coming back because Windows is the client that Microsoft has that has a billion users. We've talked maybe too much about all of the changes that they made to co-pilot. We've run what version 17 of the app or something. They moved the UI like a hundred times, like it's just been like kind of a chaotic mess. But we're starting to see things that I think are actually very useful. You see little glimpses of it and things like text rewriting capabilities in notepad or image generation capabilities in Paint or whatever it might be, but they're starting to bring these things out to kind of a system level and we're going to touch on this all over the place.

54:57
There's just a bunch of it, but in kind of a speed dating sense. Big changes to the Microsoft Store, where they're improving support for Win32, meaning desktop apps. They're not going to charge developers fees. So if you have a desktop app that you want to put in the store but haven't because you're like I really don't want to give Microsoft a portion of the whatever, you don't have to worry about that anymore, and so there's no fees. Notion is in the Microsoft Store now right for the first time for example.

55:24 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So they're doing the opposite of Apple? Yes, they are. It's the microsoft store.

55:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They're doing literally the opposite of apple. That's exactly right. Um they. There's been this story, uh, for the past couple years about microsoft trying to make windows the best place for developers, right, you see that in a lot of things. You see that in the windows um subsystem for linux, right, which is now they're, which is now 10 years old, right Now it's open source, and so why would you open source this thing? What's the difference? And I think the difference is when it first came out, there were three to five or whatever number of distributions you could put in there. The addition of new distributions has been very slow, although oddly, this year I think we saw it was Fedora most recently, and I want to say maybe Arch Linux, I don't remember. I believe that what this is about is just lowering the barrier for you have some random distribution. Yeah, you want to put your distro and go for it.

56:18 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Just make it super. Why does anybody care? Yep, what's the difference? Use what you want to use.

56:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, you know we forget this, but the first version of WSL was this kind of static thing that was part of the operating system and not really easily updatable, and now it's turned into more of an open platform that's separated from the operating system so that they can update it whenever they want through the store, etc.

56:40 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's much easier to install and maintain and update, and what's happened over the years now is that both Windows and WSL have evolved and put hooks to each other. That's right, but separately, yeah. Whatever linux you put in there, it does have access to file system and so forth, which is amazing right, and they added support for goi apps, remember at some point.

56:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Um, they've just done what they can to make this, you know, friendly for developers. So that's big. Uh, maybe that might be the biggest one, but last year they talked about something called the Windows Copilot Runtime, which I jokingly said was not a runtime but less jokingly never actually appeared. So that was May last year. February of this year, they released the first preview of this in an experimental channel, or experimental part of the beta or preview channel, whatever it was of the Windows app SDK.

57:28
By the way, it works fine, Like it's really good. It's for local AIs. No, it works great, Like it actually works great, but it took them forever. So that's going away. And then now they've renamed it to the Windows AI Foundry right to have it link up with the Azure AI Foundry. Right, Azure AI Foundry supplies, like you said, over 1900 models, mostly in the cloud, but also local. So if you have a computer with a GPU or an MPU especially not especially, but also an MPU Copilot Plus, Copilot Plus you can do that. So the Windows AI Foundry is the local version of that. So it's very specifically for the local SM, small language models and you know it's exactly what you think it is, but it's hard to remember this stuff.

58:12
But two years ago maybe, they introduced this notion of dev home, which they just deprecated, and now you're seeing the features of this thing appear elsewhere in Windows, right, and I think there's. It's weird to see this happen in the developer space. You know, it's one thing to move like a copilot icon around the UI, but you announce APIs, you take forever to ship them. There's all kind of reasons why that happened, but doesn't matter. Now they ship finally and you're like, OK, actually this is pretty good. And they're like, yeah, we're not doing this anymore. And you're like, OK, what's happening?

58:53 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You know it's a little, it feels a little rushed, but you know, mcp integration, uh in windows 11 app actions being able to write prompts to control things.

58:57 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Windows 11 right, like, yeah, amazing, yep, smart. Um, you know, one year ago the big news was recall and the copilot plus pcs and you flash forward several months. They they didn't ship it for a long time, it was only in preview until two seconds ago. But the thing that emerged last year, that far more interesting thing, was this click to do feature, which is a terrible name, typical Microsoft name, but the idea that you can interact with anything that you see on screen and there'll be smart actions on the backend based on the type of content you see in front of you. So if it's text, you'll have text actions, which will be things like summarize or whatever we rewrite in notepad to begin with. If it's an image, you can do things with paint or photos.

59:34
And they said pretty early on they're like we're going to open this thing up but we're going to bring in other apps and they're announcing this. So they have an app actions API. If you're running Windows 11, I think in stable, but if not, it's about to be in stable. If you go into where I'm looking at my computer now, if you go into apps, you'll see a actions page and right now it's just painting photos, and they will have that. It's not there now, but you'll be able to go in and select not just which apps can supply those actions, but which actions they can supply, and then apps can themselves programmatically add themselves to this list. So that's going to expand pretty dramatically.

01:00:14
They've mentioned some third-party companies that have already started adopting this, like Zoom is one, for example, todoist, raycast, et cetera. So you're going to see a lot of that kind of stuff. We talked about VBS enclaves in the sense of well, recall, right and Copilot plus PCs. This is that secure storage on disk that helps with encryption and protect sensitive information, keep it on the device. They're opening that up to third parties so you'll be able to write apps of your own that will have their own VBS enclave on disk. Vbs is not virtual basic script.

01:00:47 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Basic script? No, it's not sorry, it's a virtual based security. That's right. Yeah, virtualization basically yeah, that's right.

01:00:54 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Um, yeah, that's a vb script. Oh my god. Um, I mentioned the dev home thing. So dev home is going away and and one of the big components of that one of those things I was looking at because this could I was like this is going to be, this is important for the future was it would use winget in the background to set up not just the apps that you install but the configuration for those apps, which is the piece that's missing from winget natively.

01:01:17
Right? So I bulk install apps, but I also want them to be configured to my specifications. And so, in in dev home, they had this system that was called desired safe configuration, where it was a YAML file, which is another type of XML, where you would specify in that file the configuration of each of the apps that you were installing. That has now become part of Winget. Right, because DevHome is going away and that makes sense to me, like when get is when gets been amazing ever since they announced it, honestly, but I I feel like it's finally getting to where I want it, because it's nice to bulk install things, but you also want to bulk configure them. Yeah, not really possible right now.

01:01:55 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, and now with powershell 7.5, which is this week's run, as we get, yes, c3 right, um, which interacts with all that, and it's also cross platform and is about maintaining a state configuration, exactly, yeah, so this that.

01:02:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That to me is fantastic. Um, yeah, and there's other. I mean, there's other stuff, you know. There's the power toys. The list goes on. It just goes on, right? So whatever, there's a whole thing going on there. That's, that's all, you know. That's amazing, right? So that's good stuff. Um, what else? From a developer perspective, I don't know where to go with this stuff. Microsoft announced there were 50 million Visual Studio users. Now this is across big Visual Studio and code.

01:02:34 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, it's funny that they mix those two together. They've got nothing to do with each other.

01:02:36 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But listen to these.

01:02:38 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Mostly it's hiding how many Visual Studio users there is.

01:02:41 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I know, I know Big Visual Studio. The first time I ever visited Microsoft campus was for what became Visual Studio. It was codenamed Boston, oddly. It was a way to bring the visual tools from Visual Basic and the awesome back-end stuff from Visual C++ and kind of merge those things together. It took a couple of versions but obviously they got it there. It's pretty amazing.

01:03:01 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They only really got there once they got to NET right, the two versions that predated NET were just holding all the other IDs in a box.

01:03:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so this was like the progression of Office. So Office at one point was a bundle and then it became an integrated suite and, yeah, at some point you have the same backend for all the stuff. So Visual Basic had I think it was called Vegas at the time yeah, Visual.

01:03:19 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Studio C++ had its own. Yeah, exactly, the Visual Studio was interdev and Java, that's all it was that's because of uh anders, yeah, and this harold's we did that. Yeah, I saw him briefly yes, here, right, yeah, um.

01:03:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There are 25 000 extensions for visual studio in the visual studio marketplace. There are over 100 000 for code.

01:03:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, that's how popular difference between open source and closed source. Right, right there. And it is 30 years of Visual Studio and 10, I think, for code. Yeah, just barely 10. Yeah, like that's the you ever wanted better proof of the difference. There's the difference. That's incredible. Well, plus, the extension model for Visual Studio has changed four times, five times, in 25 years, or 30 years yeah.

01:04:10
I'm sure they got it right this time. Well, and that's one of the reasons Visual Studio Code has the advantage, because they kind of took the right one that the studio looted on the back of right.

01:04:15 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
If you want to know, aside from just the sheer bulk of it, to me, the place where the oldness, if you will, of Visual Studio and the newness of code expresses itself the best is in the GitHub integration yeah, I find it to be per Visual Studio and the newness of code expresses itself the best is in the. Github integration. Yeah, I find it to be perplexing in Visual Studio and very natural and normal in Visual.

01:04:32 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Studio. I'm afraid of the guys who built the extension weren't real users, right yeah?

01:04:36 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Right, it absolutely felt like that. Yeah, yep, so you know, whatever. Oh, let me mention this thing because I thought this is kind of small news in the scheme of things, but there were two big announcements related to native code apps in Windows, which is crazy, but okay. So one of them is the Windows app SDK, which, if you think back, is the we're going to fix UWP finally, right, and so UWP. The problem, well, a problem with that was that each version of UWP was tied to a specific version of Windows 10.

01:05:10 - Richard Campbell (Host)
In the Windows 10 days. Yeah.

01:05:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And that thing started out meaning there was a major new version of Windows twice every single year. Yep, it people were sad. Yes, it was a big problem, but from an app developer perspective it's particularly a problem because maybe you introduce new controls, new capabilities, whatever it is, you have to be on that version or newer.

01:05:27 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You introduce new controls, new capabilities, whatever it is, you have to be on that version of newer. I love the position Microsoft put it in, where devs are saying, hey, we can't roll a new version until you update Windows and the IT people are going gosh, what are you doing? We're not doing that, it's crazy right.

01:05:41 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So there are actually many improvements in the Windows app SDK compared to UWP it's desktop technology et cetera.

01:05:46 - Richard Campbell (Host)
The big thing is that when UI3 left the Windows integration, it's in SDK now. That's what changed it.

01:05:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
If you want to create a modern Windows app, for whatever reason, when UI3, you get all the APIs, it's any supported version of Windows, you don't have to worry about the versioning stuff. It's not tied to a version of Windows. It's very smart, but the Windows app SDK is still kind of a weird, kind of an odd duck, or however you want to say that. And there are these individual features that are not. It's the same problem as before, but they're tied to versions of the Windows app SDK. And so someone as a developer, you might say well, hold on a second, I have this app and I'm using some version of some feature. I have to almost make something up here, but it doesn't matter whatever it is. And now you've revved it, and now you're moving on and you've added other things, but I want to stick with that thing, and so they're doing further granularity. I'm sure I would say this, but starting, I don't know, probably in version 1.8, whatever comes out this year they're going to allow you, as the developer, to install individual components of the Windows app SDK, and now you don't have to worry about the versioning of the Windows app SDK, the same way that you don't have. So to me, like that's. Most people are listening to that Like I don't even understand what you're talking about, which fair enough, but it's honestly kind of a big deal.

01:07:02
Yeah, the other thing tied to that is React Native. So specifically, react Native for Windows whatever the name of it is so is obviously based on React Native itself. That technology was just they just redid the architecture of React and the renderer in a major new version, which they literally called the new architecture, like capital N, capital A, and now that is the default on React Native for Windows and major performance improvements. But the big thing here is like async access to and from native code and then JavaScript type safety between JavaScript and native code. New native renderers, meaning when UI3. This is huge.

01:07:47
So if you are coming at the world from the JavaScript web app space and want, as part of what you're doing, to get the nap on windows, this is this is humongous, like this is. This is something I'm actually going to start looking into now. So I thought this was really interesting. So this, you know, this is my little, my little area where I'm like this is this is what interests me the most and it probably is going to get lost in all the noise here at Build, but to me it's a big deal. I originally had an AI section in the notes and then I realized, right, and you rolled it in. I think that's the whole show.

01:08:24
So, leo, do you have a Windows thing happening where you are? Do you have Windows? Are you able to run? Do you have? Do you have a windows thing happening where you are, like, um, like a, do you have windows, like, are you okay, are you able to run?

01:08:31
like you have windows 11 somewhere that you can put yeah, it's running right now, yeah so, one of the things they announced here which I just thought was really fun um, I think this might have been the night before kevin scott did this you can, uh, you upload a photo to copilot using the app in windows, right, and now you can tell it to make it look like minecraft and, oh, I like that. You gotta, you should try this. It's fantastic. Like all right, okay, um, I have this great picture that we took, uh, at an ignite right before the pandemic, and I had it. Um, I'm trying to find it here now. I can't show it to you, but this is, I can show richard, at least this is the minecraft version of that. So that's Mary Jo, that's me. That's Gary Hilarious, yeah, it's awesome.

01:09:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Let me upload an image first, yeah.

01:09:15 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Find an image for people, if you can, something where you can recognize what it's doing, but in the same way that OpenAI had that was copying the anime style from a famous animator Microsoft owns Minecraft, so this is perfectly acceptable. Was copying the anime style from a famous animator um, the microsoft owns went minecraft, so this is perfectly acceptable, so you can have it.

01:09:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Uh, minecraft eyes, um yeah, so that was the big thing with open ai a little while ago. Everybody was doing studio ghibli, right? So, yeah, makes sense, or our action yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:42 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So you should just look at it. Yeah, whenever you can get that up, it's kind of it's, it's a cool.

01:09:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm just trying to find whenever you can get that up. It's a cool. I'm just trying to find a suitable picture first.

01:09:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's a cool thing, it looks really cool, it kind of makes me want it.

01:09:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, it has to be a 10 megabyte file. Okay, now I have to find something small.

01:09:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I might do my avatar over, so it's like a Minecraft.

01:10:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, that's a good idea.

01:10:01 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, it looks really cool.

01:10:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, oh, that's a really good idea. You really should screenshot the two of us, and yeah uh, yeah, we could.

01:10:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
If I had a way to do that, I'm sure I do. Let's sync. Oh, you're on a mac, hey, okay, so this should just uh. I believe it's uh.

01:10:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Command alt 3 f3, yeah, something like that. Oh yeah, I got it. I got it. Okay, now, all right, I'm gonna. You don't have to focus.

01:10:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, no, I just right, we'll come back to this, but it's, uh, it's, it's a really cool. Um, it's a really cool. It's a stupid thing, but it's, I think it's fun that's great.

01:10:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, um, you know, and nobody else can do that because they don't have the intellectual property right?

01:10:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I don't know you say that, but uh, making an eight bit version of anything is actually kind of a thing and I guess you know you're right it's basically what we do with the run as headshots, right yeah, right, right, right.

01:10:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, you do a great job with just low res them and go grayscale.

01:10:53 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yep, yeah, it takes away the axe murderer effect of headshots. Always like drove me crazy. Exactly the caption of that photo is always you've killed again, haven't you?

01:11:01 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
yeah?

01:11:02
you know that kind of thing wise. So google, uh, part of the 1100 things they announced this week is, uh, obviously, bringing more gemini nano features to chrome and other chrome ai features. So microsoft's doing the same thing on the edge side. I mean, they we've had an integrated version of copilot since day one, with the pan, the sidebar, etc. Etc. So, um, language translation and pd, new developer features. Google's doing that exact same thing the ability to use your paid subscription, whether it's consumer or business, in the panel and then summarize Word, excel, whatever PowerPoint documents right from the sidebar, which would be something you could do, either something you upload or just you're viewing it side by side, which is amazing. Copilot chat's going to get all the agents, all this, all the stuff like it's, just like all the stuff, um, as you would expect, all right. So I think that's should we take a break, and yeah, just looking at our time and going, we got.

01:12:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm trying to minecraft, us and uh and do a show at the same time. It's not easy, uh, but I have the shot.

01:12:11
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01:15:56 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You got to stick to your wheelhouse.

01:16:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I know what I'm good for. I know what I'm good for. On, we go with the show. Yeah, I'm trying to do it too. Well, I had to get the screenshot. Now I have to send it over from this computer to that computer and you know, it just takes a little time know, it just takes.

01:16:15 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
oh my god, look, that's pretty great.

01:16:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh my god, that's so funny oh but you're not showing it with the class well, I don't know put it in the discord, put it in the discord.

01:16:23 - Richard Campbell (Host)
There you go, we can all see it. Get it into the discord.

01:16:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You look like uh, like a 70s unix programmer, totally, I look like steve.

01:16:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's who I want to look like, so weird. Oh my god, all right, I've got the screenshot now. I have it on a mac now. Now to get it into windows. Step two yeah, I'll put it here we go. Step three let's see it's in the discord. I can pull it up. Yep, he did. That's good. I like it.

01:16:47 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's funny it doesn't all right, but doesn't look minecrafty at all, it looks old.

01:16:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Can anyone else point out the primary advance that is occurring in this photo compared to all other ai image generation you've seen to date? The text is still. Your text is readable exactly. It is very exactly. Yeah, that's amazing yep, we are making huge headway. This is it a quantum agi is exponential right over the right over the right over the hill or whatever.

01:17:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, now that you've done it, I don't need to do it, so I'll throw this screenshot out. I mean, I love this stuff. And then I start to feel guilty. Like, am I burning down rainforests while I'm doing this? Yeah, I find it's best just not to think about it, try not to think about it. All right, moving on, let's talk. Hey, what, what? What's the big topic today at microsoft? Build windows? Well, not really.

01:17:42 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But but, yeah, separate from and also concurrent with build has been a bunch of stuff going on with windows. So last, uh, november, yeah, november, at ignite, they announced something called the windows resiliency initiative, which is the Secure Future Initiative, and they pulled in some stuff they're already doing, like Windows Hello, ess and VBS enclaves, and then they announced some new stuff, and one of those new things was something called Administrative Protection, right, and which was presented at the time possibly because it was Ign ignite as a commercial only feature, meaning for microsoft's business customers. But actually, um, it's coming soon to the windows. Well, actually it's in the canary. It's one of the few features in the canary. Wow, a canary build is actually a canary. Yep, uh, they've never updated it, but back in january they did release it through there. Um, it will be coming soon to dev and beta, if it didn't just happen, by the way, as recently as yesterday. I haven't had a chance to look at that yet.

01:18:34
So what does it actually do, right? So if you think about, uh, the uh, user account protection was like a uac, sorry, a user account control was a kind of an additional prompt. I think of it as like the middle red light on a car, you know, because all of a sudden one year we just had that it was. It was designed to put it something in front of you, so you thought about what you were doing. Right, but this takes that to the not work. Yeah, so what this does is basically do what I think a lot of people thought uac was doing, which was it. You're basically running at a lower elevation level most of the time now, which is the way windows should be. Yeah, anyway, it creates a like an in, like a temporary elevation actual account that has elevated privileges to do whatever the task is. That requires that and you have. Well, you don't? You technically don't have to, by the way, but let's say you have to. You have to set it up this way. You can actually turn it off later, but you use windows hello to authenticate yourself, right, and hopefully biometrically, but you could do a pin, you know, obviously, I guess if you turn it off, you'd have to type in a password, which to me would be horribly, um, inconvenient, but they don't actually discuss that, um, and then, as soon as that task is occurs, that account is destroyed. It's just destroyed, so it's, it's temporary, comes, goes and you have to authenticate.

01:19:57
And if you think back to the primary complaint about user account control when they implemented it in Windows Vista, it was that it interrupted too much. Yeah, it happened too often. This is going to be way worse than that. And because I don't think people understand how often You're constantly elevated, right, yeah, so it's going the night, um, and because I don't think people understand you're constantly elevated, right, yeah, so it's going to be interesting to see how this goes to me. What this reminds me of is, well, it was windows xp, sp2 and then, before that, uh, windows server 2003, where the they locked these things down to such a degree. The big saying and the server side was like, it's a server, not a surfboard. So, like, the version of ie they had in there at the time was completely deep neutered and, yeah, you know, protected mode, yep, didn't do anything, uh, by default, and it, it, it's gonna have that kind of a vibe to it.

01:20:41 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So you know, and back in the day, when I had a real job, which is a really a very long time ago, uh, I had a boss who insisted on having an administrator account. So I created an account called sysadmin that had no rights at all. I love it, because he never used it. That's evil, right, that's so evil. I love it. What you're actually seeing here is that's what they're doing. Sure, you have administrative privileges, but they're off, and it's only when you actually do an action that's going to utilize administrative privilege that it's going to do something.

01:21:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
The weirdness of this is that, well, the problem with this, a problem with this is that, well, the problem with this, a problem with this, is that it's not just users that are lazy, this is just the way Windows is right. So app developers also don't think about this enough. So one of the problems with this is going to be apps, because apps have been written in a lazy sense too. They just assume you're going to have elevated privileges, and so the reason they're talking about this now is it's coming very soon is the phrase, which I take to mean 25H2, by the way but they want app developers to take note of this and try to run as little of the app as possible in elevated privilege mode or whatever. So the hope is that anyone will actually pay attention to this. No one will.

01:21:52 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, you know, where it's going to happen is on developers, because that's going to apply to them too. That's right. Well, that's this was a windows developer blog post that. Well, one of the first things you find out is visual studio's got a real problem with not having full super user privileges so I I could be wrong, but I think that's exactly the example to use.

01:22:08 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They're like this thing is screwed, yeah yeah, you're not.

01:22:10 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You know what's going to happen.

01:22:12 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I've done this before, where I've had reduced privileges for a developer and it's like nothing works so if you, if you're a developer and you've ever tried to do like a windows app, sdk app, whatever, you actually have to turn developer mode on for the steven work. And I'm wondering now if they're not going to do something like that for like, look, we realize you're a developer, you're going to screw everything up, so we'll give you the opportunity to work around, which just means that you will continue to build software that needs super user 100.

01:22:37 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's exactly what it means. We're back to the same problem.

01:22:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So yeah, yeah, um, okay. So there's that, um, and then we've had a series of uh, windows, um, what updates to windows? Windows, well, windows inside a preview releases, um, maybe the most most notable one, because this points to next month's. Where are we in the calendar? Actually, this month's preview update, probably next Tuesday, and then next month's patch Tuesday is a release preview channel build of Windows 11 24H2. And so this is a preview we're going to see in. Where are we now? June, right, yeah?

01:23:12 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Now that it's just about 25H2, it's's a perfect time I actually right I should say tied to this.

01:23:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
The next thing we're going to talk about is you know, we've been doing the same builds in uh, dev and beta channel. This is where. Where am I at? Yeah, this is where beta channel no longer gets new 23 h2 build. So if you were stuck on 20 not stuck, if you chose to be on 23h2, did not go forward to 24h2. You're gonna. Now you're getting it like right, so there's no more 23h2 uh in what only have one in beta.

01:23:43 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This can't persist. There must be another. I can't imagine what it would be called yeah, you know speculation one could speculate what's the number after four?

01:23:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
uh, we'll see. So, um, you know it's I. I'm in the like, say, like this past month's patch Tuesday update which was humongous. It's not as big, but new text actions for click to do. You're going to see that stuff come to AMD and Intel based copilot plus receipts, which is great, image descriptions, narrative, a lot of stuff is stuff it's going to be familiar. We've heard of this. Yeah, the semantic search stuff, which they're technically not calling it anymore, the ability to well, not to remap. We already have the ability to remap the copilot key to a limited degree, but they're bringing back the Windows key plus C shortcut. Actually, I'm seeing if that works on my computer. Yeah, I still don't have that. That's curious. Um, and whatever, the most of it's, most of this stuff is not particularly interesting but, uh, not a huge one, but just again kind of refining a lot of the um, ai stuff that we've been talking about. Um, and then a little further out is and this is tied to what we talked about earlier dev and beta.

01:24:47
24h2 is this, uh, these new ai actions, uhmenu in File Explorer. So if right now, if you were to right-click on an image in 24H2, you would see actions in that primary menu related to the two apps that support that. But now there are going to be multiple apps, so they're going to do a submenu and we're seeing the beginning of that, plus additional actions related to photos and paint for images and notepad for now, but eventually you're going to see paint for images and notepad for now, but eventually you're going to see that for word and excel and you know third party and whatever. So if you have adobe photoshop, you'll probably see it in there for that eventually.

01:25:22
Advanced settings is a new page in the settings app that is also tied to dev home being deprecated. These are a lot of the settings that you could do easily through dev home. Now you're going to be able to do them through the Settings app and it's primarily developer-related. And one of the features that you can add I believe this is already there, it's in DevHome is the ability to map a GitHub repository to the file system and then, when you're reviewing that, have commands related to committing and pulling and pull requests et cetera et cetera.

01:25:52 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, so that's kind of cool for developers, I think, um and the rest of this is that's the way um, one of the other source control systems used to work is a turtle, something like that, but it's like interesting.

01:26:05 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, I love that I mean I, you know, right, right now, for example, like uh, you know, if you go into visual studio and and uh, grab a github, obviously it's going to put it somewhere locally. And then you know, sync right.

01:26:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Darren says.

01:26:17 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Tortoise SVN. Tortoise SVN. Yeah, You're right, Darren, exactly.

01:26:21 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so the thing you don't get. So you get a replication of it in the file system, but you don't get. There's no UI in there, right for you, and so I do all that stuff from the command line now, which is fine if you know what you're doing.

01:26:31 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But, like you know, having a ui is yeah you know, there's common sense it's good in the ui. It's just the file system like it's pretty painless.

01:26:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yep, it's good stuff I like I like that a lot, yeah, um. And then there was a 23h2 release preview build uh, as well, which is, you know, again they're lining up the stuff, so it's features we had seen before, like that drag tray getting ready for the end. Yeah, um. And then also windows 10 has a release preview build and I believe the this is a big one, folks.

01:27:01 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Uh, we're gonna get the seconds display back in the in the clock we're out of good ideas, let's try some bad ideas, yeah, and then we get another version when we put it back.

01:27:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Richard, your I always used it because if it uh, that way, I knew if my machine was hung there, you go, that's the best ticking.

01:27:19 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You can't wait a minute.

01:27:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's crazy, so right right I want everyone to take a gander at, uh, his computer. This is a surface studio laptop studio two. Yeah, uh, dead. They've killed it, all the laptops they killed it you killed it.

01:27:33 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah it the laptops. They killed it. You killed it. Yeah, it was dead. I'm waiting for it to burst into flames because I'd like a new one, anyway. Now, this is yeah, I spent a lot on this machine and it's not been great yeah.

01:27:55 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So my expectation is well, my hope maybe is we could see a Surface laptop that has the AMD chip the new one they rise in nine whatever it's called hx, you know, and whatever the you know, which is like having a gpu.

01:28:00 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's like incredible, like they're incredible, and I think this would solve this problem, like the need here I've been trying to look at ryzen 9s on a motherboard to build a pc, because I still like to build a pc right, and it's hard to find. It's just tough, and and again it's like is there a way to sneak in a co-pilot plus pc, hand built? Yeah, and a depth desktop chassis? No joy so far. I haven't had that much time to work on it, but yeah, it's a problem this thing.

01:28:23 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This little laptop I have here is just literally like it's fine, whatever, but there's a. The next one that I'll review is a amd ryzen 9, whatever you know, it's a little thicker, uh, battery life, but battery life is like eight hours. You know, the performance is nuts. I could play down here like right there.

01:28:39 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, it's crazy. So the it warped my the the case on my phone. Crazy it's so. My hands are a little cold. I might actually know you can warm up on this.

01:28:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Um, the I'll fire up a video game and this thing will properly cook the table this, this integrated graphics set they have with a 2880 by whatever the number is at full res. Every feature turned on high quality graphics runs at like 80 frames a second in Call of Duty. It's like it's nuts, it's a monster. So this is going to be. That to me, is a game changer. I think that's going to be humongous, but yeah, they apparently look. Microsoft has kind of settled on these two devices laptop and pro. They have a range of models now I mean, anything could change, but I think the big thing is going to be that we on the business side I think it's only business they offer Intel versions of both of those. Still they have had AMD for laptop. I'm just saying so like I I look a lunar lake is not going to solve this problem.

01:29:34 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I'm ready to move off of surface. I think I miss Penthouse.

01:29:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You also killed the studio. I love that. That's where it's at. You're not pumped anymore. That's why you're thinking of the air is going out.

01:29:46 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They've also killed the studio desktop machine.

01:29:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yes, of course that's sad. It's still on the site.

01:29:50 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's still on the site, it's just out of stock Yep, always Yep, so that whole line is done. This is one of them, because this one's got the trick right you can pop the screen out. How often do you do that? A lot Only when I show it to you, yep.

01:30:02 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Okay, that makes sense. Minor, this is a minor thing, but a couple of months back Microsoft announced companion apps for Microsoft 365 commercial customers using Windows 7. So these little kind of fly out apps like file search and people like the context management. Now they have, or they will soon have, one for calendar as well, and because you can never have too many calendars in your computer, I guess I'm not really sure what the point is.

01:30:28 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Wow, trying to kill those things. Now they're bringing it back, I know.

01:30:31 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, this is the nature of Windows, it's it's like pile it on, pull back, pile it on, pull back. Um, this one's a couple years old, uh. But microsoft has gotten in trouble in the eu for a couple things, but one of them is teams bundling an office or this is the one where the eu said they were unhappy we wouldn't offer remediation.

01:30:50 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They just like do something, that's exactly. And then, when they did something, says that's not good enough, that's exactly right so there's a little something, there's a little more right.

01:30:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So it's like they went to the extreme step of removing teams from office or at least making a version without it. Um, they took the additional step of doing that worldwide, you know, and he was like, yeah, it's not good enough, like what is good enough?

01:31:12
yeah well we don't know, let's try something else, um, so I guess since then they have in fact been working together, okay. So microsoft was like look, we made this proposal, uh, they've accepted it. But now the eu has put it out for comment to the public, meaning slack, um, to see what the complaint is, right, if there is one, and I have a feeling this one's going to pass. So they, they lowered the price further on the version of Office or Microsoft 365 that does not have Teams, right, they've agreed. This is very similar to the EU Microsoft and Android case from 20 years ago. They're going to increase the interoperability. I believe there's going to have APS for Microsoft 365. So the Teams-like functions can be integrated with a third-party Slack. And then they were already going to do this, but they've formally acknowledged or agreed they will allow customers to move their data out of Teams so they can then put it into a third-party process Slack, slack, meeting, slack, 100% Slack.

01:32:12 - Richard Campbell (Host)
The point to remember is Slack is owned by Salesforce right.

01:32:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yep, yep, slack, 100, slack. So the point of error is slack is owned by salesforce right? Yep, yep, but but this is like uh aol at the time owning netscape, because this started before that right and then they continued it then it suddenly landed in a company with a lot of money yep, and it's like, oh, you kind of killed your argument, didn't you?

01:32:26
um, so you know, we'll see. But the other one and this is very similar to the other problem microsoft has in europe, right with antitrust, which is the cloud licensing stuff, and one of the what do they call it? Like exit fees, like one of the big problems, is the big cloud players. To prevent customers from migrating would make it expensive to move off. Yeah Right, so they got rid of that.

01:32:47 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So now there's no I thought that was a good move on the EU. It's like part yeah Right, that yeah Right.

01:32:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's proper competitive behavior Exactly, especially in the EU, where, like, the big players, that's one thing, but there are a bunch of small players in the cloud space in the EU, like in the United States. We've never heard of these companies, but you know they can't compete Like you can't. You're like, oh listen, we have all these advantages over, you know, whatever it is Microsoft 365 hosting, Like okay, but you don't understand, like how just to get the data out of there, it makes it untenable. So they're doing the same thing on the client side, although, again, I don't know, this is ever a restriction, but customers can switch between versions of Office. So if you're doing Teams, you're like I don't want to do Teams, I'm going to pull the data out of there. Microsoft will allow that and not charge you extra for it. They were never going to. But put it into Slack and now I can switch my subscription over for whatever users to a comparable version of the suite of sort of the service, whatever that doesn't have teams with no, you know qualifications, right, it's just kind of common side.

01:33:47
This. I this looks to me kind of like what they did do a year ago, but I think this time it's actually going to. I think think it's gonna work. Um, and my speculation I think it was last summer was that when the eu kind of came back and said, yeah, no, you're gonna fix this and it's like well, you didn't tell me to do anything extra here, I feel like it was just the price, like so, whatever the cost was per user level, it's like two dollars less and it was like that's not enough, because when you add this is like the Apple, it's not this extreme.

01:34:16
But when you add the cost of Teams-less Microsoft 365 plus Slack, it's more than the cost of just Microsoft 365. So it was like, well, who would do that? I mean, honestly, some customers would, because they have to use Slack, because of whatever their customers, partners, whatever use it. But they're just kind of streamlining that process so that that seems good to me. Cool. Let's take a little uh break because guess what?

01:34:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
oh, we're so excited. The xbox segment is just around the corner. You're watching windows weekly with paul throd and richard campbell, surrounded by crazed developers at the build.

01:34:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Very excited, get heavy people people like free things, man they are so cheap.

01:34:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They must have broken out the t-shirt cannon. That's all I can say.

01:34:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There's some real excitement happening I'm going over there after here. I want to see what's going on.

01:35:01 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't know, it's custom made octocats I want that.

01:35:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That sounds great. 3d printed octocats very cute. I made a. I turned the renaissance picture into a minecraft picture. Here we go.

01:35:14 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That actually worked pretty well so we're doing like this is the ai version of the telephone game. Yeah, that's it.

01:35:20 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, we're actually we eventually just up one pixel each right, right I like that of great I like the background, by the way.

01:35:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, um, I asked to put us in a field I feel like I'm getting older in every version of this you are. I don't know, it doesn't look like you at field. I feel like I'm getting older in every version of this you are, I don't know it doesn't look like you at all, I think, uh, I'm pretty well rendered.

01:35:39
However, I think that was a good, good job on my part, uh. Anyway, on we go uh with the show. It's time for the xbox. After that minecraft moment, time for the xbox segment. Paul, give us a lot good news.

01:35:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I know I'm gonna try to burn through this quick. I, by the way, I want to just acknowledge kevin brewer. If you're in discord, you know this already, but if you're not, you have no idea what I'm talking about. But, uh, when we do the show, um, he takes the show notes and he posts the link to whatever we're about to talk about and, uh, I can't imagine how frazzled he is right now because the show has been a complete disaster.

01:36:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, we've been all over the place. He does a good job though. Yeah, he does, Thank you for that, kev, and I'm sorry for the way this has gone down this is another reason to be in the club, by the way, because then you can sit in the Discord and you get the links. Yeah, In fact, Kevin King uploads the show notes ahead of time so those which we've promptly modified.

01:36:43 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, well, you know it's a, it was a work in progress. Yeah, okay, so it's big wig. And games um, without getting into the nitty-gritty on this one, uh, epic games um got the you know the in their case against apple. Uh, submitted fortnight and then apple didn't do anything and then the time frame for it expired and they were like okay, they're blocking us. You know, they went complain to the judge. Apple's like we didn't do anything. And then the judge had another rip roaring legal. Oh man, it was the best. And basically what it said was you can solve this problem without me getting involved. If the court's intervention is required, the Apple official who is responsible for ensuring compliance will appear personally in the hearing on May 27th and any opposition brief will be filed by whatever date and will identify that person by name. Wow, so we can. Then I'm ready to put people in jail, yep, and it's like oh wait, we approved it. Apple is, oh my God.

01:37:33 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So if you, have a malicious compliance thing is going to burn them unbelievable so if you have an iphone or ipad, you can get fortnight again.

01:37:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's just like it's uh, we're gonna party like it's 2020, um, so that's fun, I can stay home. Microsoft filed a um illegal filing in this case to explain that they have had a similar problem with apple that they have submitted. They want to do the, the store where they can do game streaming, etc. And apple keeps saying no and they're like this you're required to allow us to do this. This is part of that ruling, right and um. So we'll see what comes of this, but um malicious compliance yep, they're terrible at everybody.

01:38:11
They're pretty consistent. So there's that. There was a job listing on callcomcom, which I'm sure is now gone, but it specifically mentioned that they're looking for an applicant who can help with the next generation of Surface and Xbox products built on Snapdragon. Excellent, that is the right thing to do. Yeah, we've been speculating about this for a long time and I can't say this completely confirms it. I mean, we don't know what that means exactly. It could just be a handheld thing, it might not be everything, but we know from the leak from a couple of years back that Microsoft wanted to make the next-gen consoles based on ARM and a lot of things have to happen, as we've been saying Not to release, and a lot of things have to happen, as we've been saying but

01:38:54 - Richard Campbell (Host)
not the least the devs, but yeah, so it's really interesting. You kind of need windows on arm to even approach. You know the xbox 360, because it was the custom hardware. It made lives for game developers really hard and it substantially slowed down game development. Yep, it raised the prices on everything. Like it.

01:39:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Right, it was a mistake in the end so this week week is also Computex, and rather than take another half an hour to talk about all the developments that are occurring there, I'll just mention one of them, which is that Dell has announced this week a workstation that has I don't remember if it was AMD or Intel, but whatever processor, NVIDIA, dedicated graphics of whatever variant and the Snapdragon X MPU in a single computer. So there's an interesting mixing and matching occurring there.

01:39:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Wow, that's wild.

01:39:42 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And they went to these companies because they said they were like look, we want, we need this internally for AI development. It's kind of a weird ask, but is there some way we can do this? And I don't know which party required, required this. But one of the three companies said yeah, you can do this, but you need to sell this computer to the public as well, and so it's going to be very expensive. I believe it's about three grand or whatever, but, um, and it's kind of a one-off. I don't. You know, no one expects this to be like a volume seller or whatever, but this is the thing, one of the things we've been kind of thinking about and talking about with Snapdragon or just windows 11 on arm, which is yep For all the reasons everyone knows, Great, especially for thin and light laptops. But what about dedicated graphics? You know this is something Apple doesn't.

01:40:23 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, what about dedicated MPU? Give me an MPU and a PCIe slot, yep.

01:40:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So this is very interesting, right? This is like we're, right, this is like we're, and maybe, maybe, uh, this points to a solution. I mean, I I did talk to qualcomm recently. They they acknowledged competitors were coming to this market soon, meaning windows 11 on our uh. But you know, there's indications I don't, they're not even rumors. It's like more than rumors that microsoft wants to in some way it's not clear. They know how combine the Xbox and Windows gaming worlds into a single platform of some kind, and that makes to me, makes well today. Well, arm would make sense. I think so. Yeah, so, again, lots of things have to happen, but this job listing points to that seems to be happening.

01:41:10 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Somebody's working on it.

01:41:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No one is saying anything Qual qualcomm plus nvidia in this context, but there is qualcomm plus nvidia on that computer I just mentioned and, if you can carve, the n100 off you can stick it on a card, stick it in my machine and boom, I'm a co-pilot plus pc.

01:41:27 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Oh my god, that's pretty much. I mean we still gotta do the camera stuff and things like yeah, so there might be certain monitors I have to have that have the proper camera on it, like right, I could see that, or you know the right module, I mean.

01:41:37 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But we should be able to build copilot plus PC. Copilot plus PC is just a spec, I mean that's what I'm saying, I just expect that they this could change and you can't order you as a copilot plus PC buyer could turn off Windows. Hello ESS, in the sense that you could just connect an external webcam. That will never be compliant, right, and it still works fine, like you don't lose any function there's another product to sell there.

01:41:59 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Give me a hello ess module that plugs into usbc and it sits on top of my screen.

01:42:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's just the problem is this an interception capability there? You know this is what they're worried about. But, but, yeah, but, but yes, fair enough. Um, so that's very interesting. There is right now a gigantic Xbox monthly update that is going on across platforms Well meaning console, obviously, but also PC and mobile, and there's a bunch of stuff to it. This just happened before the show, so I've only looked at this at a very high level because I just didn't have a lot of time.

01:42:31
But one of the things that's in here is a retro gaming anthology that's of Activision games, classic, built from the 80s and 90s, available to anyone on Game Pass from console, pc and Xbox cloud gaming. Right now it's not available for purchase separately, which, as Laurent writes in our article, I think is a first. So we've seen these kind of retro gaming anthologies over the years in various forms, right on cd in the 1990s and then you know, digital elsewhere. But 50 plus classic activision games commando, grand prix, kaboom, like from the original. You know, atari 2600, uh, pitfall, etc. Et cetera, et cetera. So that's cool. There is GeForce Now integration in the Xbox app sorry, in Windows. So today if you have an Xbox Game Pass sorry, ultimate subscription you get Xbox Cloud Gaming Got to really work through these names, right, and that means you can stream, obviously. But if you have a GeForce, now, whatever games you have through there will, you'll be able to stream through the xbox app as well. It's cool, and I think this points to that future we've talked to, or talked about every once in a while, where microsoft wants the xbox app on windows, which is the xbox interface, essentially on console but on the pc side, to be the front end for all of the games that you do.

01:43:54
And this is one step. But the next step, which is rumored to be happening this year, is integration with Steam and the Epic Games Store. Nice, right, so you have those accounts, you link them up with your Xbox account, you get everything through. All the stores go through it, yep. So this is cool to me. So you know, we'll see how that goes down. And then I already did that. For some reason I have the same link on all these articles, okay, so I've screwed up the notes. That's amazing. It hasn't happened more often. Um, there's other stuff. If you use the game bar in windows, which I actually do pretty extensively, there's a big ui update there, uh, which looks pretty cool. Updates the x edge game assist, which is that in browser or in in ui mini browser thing where you can get help with the game side by side, etc. Which is cool. There's all that stuff Custom Xbox yeah, gift cards meaning custom amounts, like you could buy them in whatever amounts.

01:44:43 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It was like $10, $25, $100.

01:44:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, but if you know what a game costs like with the tax, you could be like here's your gift card for $32.97 or whatever and it's the exact cost of the thing, you could do that. Um, one of the better games that I played last year meaning one of the few games that was not called call of duty that I played last year um was hellblade 2. Right, the? Um, which is kind of an interactive adventure action game, kind of viking era, whatever. Great graphics, good story. Uh, this is like a weird mental health component to it. That's part of it.

01:45:12
Um is, uh, the latest xbox game coming to the playstation 5, so that will delight everyone in xbox because we're so open to that. It's fine. Um, second half of the month so we're getting a new collection of xbox game pass games, including, by the way, that hellblade 2 title uh is one of several. So, uh, tom clancy's, the division 2 is in there. Um, spray paint simulator, because, seriously, stalker 2, right, coming to Game Pass Standard on May 22. That's great, that's your day. One difference so whenever that game came out, it was the biggest thing in the world. Probably late last year, I guess November probably You'll be getting it on Standard, which is the replacement for the old Xbox Game Pass, the one that everyone wanted, right.

01:45:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's a pretty good game list. It's better than we've had Yep, yeah, 100%. So yeah, by that I mean two titles.

01:46:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I reckon I mean you actually exactly, exactly, yeah, division 2. Maybe three? Well, yeah, hellblade 2, st's the division two.

01:46:11 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Uh, and then, of course, it's a massive online game.

01:46:15 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yep, yep, uh, just yeah, this is a good one. Yeah so yeah, so kind of a big month. Um, am I missing anything? I think that's two to do, to do, to do.

01:46:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's it. That's it. That's the Xbox segment Coming in.

01:46:27 - Richard Campbell (Host)
We're going to land it. We're going to land this.

01:46:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I hope you enjoyed that.

01:46:32 - Richard Campbell (Host)
We're getting to the back of the book actually just around the corner.

01:46:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But first I'd like to tell you about Club Twit. It's only $7 a month, but it won't be that price for much longer. So if you are a Club Twit member, hang on to your membership, because you'll still have the founder price of $7 a month, $84 a year. New kids will be joining. We'll have to pay a little bit more. So and if you join today, you can still get the founder pricing. So twittv slash club twit. I think seven bucks is an amazing deal. For what? You get?

01:47:09
Ad-free versions of all the shows, access to the club twit discord, and there's a lot more going on in the discord than just chat about the shows. Of course that happens. Uh, many of our hosts join the discord, participate. Uh, that's cool. There's sections for everything geeks are interested in, from gaming to photography and more. So you you know it's a really nice social network. We also do shows in the club, in the club to a Discord. As I mentioned at the beginning of the show, our keynotes now are all club to it only. So we did the Microsoft build keynote on Monday, the Google IO keynote on Tuesday.

01:47:46
Wwdc is coming up June 9th. Those will all be. Uh, for copyright reasons. Those will all be in the Discord only Coming up this Friday. Dick DeBartolo is going to stop by. We'll celebrate 2,000 episodes of the GizWiz and I'm going to break out some of the old jingles and show episodes and things. We have our AI user group coming up first Friday of every month. That was great last month, anthony. He also shows us how he makes those crazy moral panic interstitials wwdc june 9th.

01:48:18
And, as you can see, we do a lot of shows in the club so you can watch live there. And photo time with chris marquardt, june 13th, 1 pm. Pacific. And wednesday, june 18th, 6 pm. Pacific the return of micah's craftingrafting Corner. We had a lot of fun last week with the Crafting Corner. Joining the club is more than just supporting what we do, but that's a big part of it. 25% now of our operating costs get paid by the club members. Thank you, we couldn't do it without you. But you get a lot of benefits too. Twittv, slash club twit. Get in there now to get the founder pricing and we thank you so much for your support. Now time for the back of the book. Paul therock kicks it off with his tip of the week. Paul club is killing it. The club is just.

01:49:04 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I'm so distracted oh, is there stuff in the?

01:49:08 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
discord. Oh, it's so good. Yeah, they're going to so good oh, I love this.

01:49:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, we, joe Esposito, does these. Have you ever contributed this one of mye esposito does these? Have you ever contributed this one of my tom selleck in this? Have you ever contributed to keeping a network of shows alive and growing?

01:49:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
for the I gotta go.

01:49:21 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Tc has arrived in the helicopter darren had a couple of killers too, just so funny darren's done some good good stuff too.

01:49:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Look at this. He made a. Uh, oh, that's, paul did this one. This is a bunch of a LAN party. They're sitting around as the TV screen and the yeah, there's a lot of good stuff, I guess.

01:49:40 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Going back a little further, even farther, it gets weird, oh this.

01:49:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
By the way, I figured out what this is. This is the Notebook LM version of the show. There you go.

01:49:54 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There you go. Thereangely, bizarre versions of the three. They're not quite versions of us.

01:49:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Somebody says Ray Romano, I love this. Gordon Freeman, jay Leno.

01:50:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
The thing is right. I recognize each one of those people yeah.

01:50:08 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But they're not us but they're not, us Not quite. There's almost a Jerry Seinfeld there on the left, yeah, yeah, but there's a great uncanny valley a moment.

01:50:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What darren did is he had older pictures of the three of us which he said. I was trying to get a younger version of this right, so he, yeah, he, that's what my wife's is trying to yeah, same thing yeah, yeah, I like, I like this, but I like a younger version a little younger, please. Yeah, anyway, what's your tip of the week, my friend?

01:50:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
so I do not have a tip, but I have an app pick and a game pick. Okay, um, one of the many things microsoft announced this week and I don't quite understand why they're doing this, but is a command line editor called edit, which is available now for free on github. You can get it for windows or linux and well, part of the reason is they you would install this in the nwsl or the command line 50 year anniversary gag is what this is.

01:50:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Oh, is it a gag?

01:50:57 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
oh, no, no, no it's not a gag, it's, it's, it's real, it's actually, but it's for the 50th anniversary yeah, it's pretty cool, like it's an ms-dos roll flashback it's, it's. It works like it's.

01:51:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's pretty good it's kind of funny. Yeah, it's so funny, is it? It's a 2e editor or is it a GUI editor that looks like a TUI editor?

01:51:13 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So remember the DOS editor UI, so like Quick Basic or whatever Like it's full screen with menu system. Yeah, it's like it's.

01:51:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's what they do it does keyboard shortcuts.

01:51:23 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You know Control-O and you can navigate through the file system. It works well.

01:51:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It says it's an homage to the classic MS-DOS editor. Yeah, ms-dos editor. Yeah, totally Wow.

01:51:32 - Richard Campbell (Host)
The 50th anniversary thing Right so.

01:51:33 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'll leave my next app. I'm going to do a DOS version of the NET.

01:51:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Pad and it's written in Rust, so you know it's going to be very reliable.

01:51:41 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's right. Chances of this editor crashing low.

01:51:44 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I noticed this app doesn't have tabs. That's genius. That's hysterical. That's hysterical. My game, um, uh, my game pick is, uh, something I was hoping to play more of, but, of course, now I'm here and I can't really don't, really, it's weird. I haven't had a lot of time to play games this week, um, but doom the dark ages is out and it's fantastic, like it's really good and it's well.

01:52:03
I've heard so many people describe this as like a throwback to the. It says nothing to do with any of the doom games. It's. It has nothing to like.

01:52:09
Supposedly, this is like a trilogy they've done, but you know the recent doom 2016, doom return or doom eternally yeah, and doom the dark age is like part of it. They're not. It has nothing to do with any of it. Like it's a, if anything, it's further from the roots of the original doom. As you know, unnamed space marine. You know the portals of hell have opened up, etc. But it, it, it's really, it's really well done. Um, it's a beautiful game, I will say, compared to Call of Duty, the primary download size of this game is smaller than the typical monthly update to Call of Duty. Like it installs really quick. It's a great game. It's single player right, so you can go do that. That part of it is very similar to Doom, so it's bugging me because I think if I had been home I might have finished it by now. But I haven't really been able to play since I've been here, so I installed it on this laptop.

01:53:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I was like, yeah, you never know like yeah, no, you do know it's not happening it does have some of the similar creatures.

01:53:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean, there's the doom guy oh, but it's done with unreal engine or something it's like one of those time travel things like you're in some like uh, not renaissance got the bfg baby?

01:53:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
oh my, of course it does.

01:53:17 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, it's well done like it's yeah, the uh, the mechanics are great. There's a you know some new elements to it. Like a lot of it is like you have a shield and you can block but also attack with it, and um, it's a big part of it, like you know. So a lot of people are like this is about, like they call it parry, like parry, parry mode or whatever, but like what he just did right there where you attack with the shield, yeah, yeah, um, very effective, um, it's, this is great. It just runs great like it's it's really looks like so much fun.

01:53:47
Oh my gosh, uh, yeah, and you're killing it a little bit like serious sam or something, if you remember those games from right the other day, right, yeah, but you're right does that look like, do you know?

01:53:57 - Richard Campbell (Host)
not at all, not at all yeah, but it's as if you took doom and got a warhammer good 40 000, feel yeah, maybe a little, yeah, a little bit of that recognizable armor kind of thing.

01:54:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah okay, here comes doom. Now here comes run as radio. Who's uh? Oh, you're gonna do that powershell thing, aren't you?

01:54:19 - Richard Campbell (Host)
yeah, I already mentioned this because we happen to talk about dsc and a bunch of others, but my friend, jason helmick, who is one of the great powershell gurus before he joined microsoft then he went into the powershell team as well uh, finally got a chance to talk to him directly about the latest version of powershell 7, which is 7.5.

01:54:35
Nice, and we talked a bit about the cadence, because he's very much on the PM side of things. Powershell is open source and so there are community contributors, and so they. They tend to alternate between a release version that is heavily focused on the contributor contributions where they've made sure they validate them all so if they could contributions where they've made sure they validate them all so these can stay in, and then the following version in this case it'll be 7.6 is what they call the long-term support edition, and that one tends to synchronize with the new version of dot net so this is the november yeah, so springtime we release the 0.5, which is the contributed, the community edition, and then the 0.6 will come out in november with dot 10.

01:55:13
And then that's supported for three years, which is how long.

01:55:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
NET 10 will be supported you could sync up the version number.

01:55:19 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Now you're just talking crazy talk. Yeah, honestly, I don't even want to say it. And adjacent to that was DSC 3. So that's the Star-State Configuration.

01:55:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And it's really I thought it was I misread it. I thought it was DOS 3. I was so confused.

01:55:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, that was DOS 3. That's a real throwback, holy man, that's funny.

01:55:36 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And so it's not just a configuration. It's about maintaining the configuration of a machine. I originally used this back in the early days for maintaining a set of web servers that were in a cluster, because often you have these drifts, things happen to these machines and their configuration is not the same, so they misbehave, and dsc was really good at making sure all of these versions it's incredible to me that this this term's been around for in the microsoft space for like 25 people, yeah, like it's crazy.

01:56:01
I've thought about dsc on and off on run as for more than a decade, easy yep. And so now they're up to version three. I mean a couple important parts. One is it's fully cross-platform, so you can use dsc on linux to maintain configuration now as well. What?

01:56:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
does dsc?

01:56:15 - Richard Campbell (Host)
stand for desired state configuration oh, that's cool so this is the, this is the.

01:56:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's a yaml based configuration file and it and you, you know you specify the configuration. Well, you're saying for the system, but also for individual apps yeah, for software configurations yeah and um, yeah, I mean, you know you want. Every time you bring this thing up, you want to make sure it's configured exactly the way you want it.

01:56:38 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And so it's a way to deploy new machines. It's a way to maintain machines. To say it has this thing drifted is the term we use when the configuration has been altered by other software.

01:56:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This is what I want for my Windows 11 customization utility. Yeah, like you set the configuration.

01:56:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You're like. You make sure it's always like this. Every time you boot up, rerun the configurator and make sure we're correct. Jason's one of the gods. His photo on Twitter is a picture of him with Manassi and Rasinovich and Snover. He's been in that loop. Part of that PowerShell culture is the very beginning.

01:57:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I want to go to that dinner party. He literally is the inventor of PowerShell culture since the very beginning. I want to go to that dinner party. He was the inventor of PowerShell. I just told a story about him yesterday to Rick Klaus at Ignite 2019. I found him wandering around in the convention center.

01:57:23
I'm like are you all right, he goes. I have no idea where our booth is. I've got to speak there in two minutes and I was like, oh, I'd escape from there. I can bring you over. Brought him over there. And I was like I found this homeless guy wandering around. He said he was with you.

01:57:32 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't know awesome, yeah, so it's great to talk to jason. I mean, he crossed over, became a blue badge during the company, and so forth is now working on the product oh, that's fantastic an advocate for for forever. So I love everything about that and he's clearly having a great time nice oh man, we made it to the best part of the show.

01:57:51
It's time for some brown liquor that tipped into the weird list today to go back to scotland, uh, to talk about tamnavulin. Now, actually, before I could talk about that, I have to talk about glenn livet. Now, we're not going to talk about glenn livet, the whiskey, because we I actually mentioned nadira how more than 100 shows ago, 812 is is when I mentioned the Dura. Glenlivet is actually an important phrase. I mean nominally it means the valley of the river right, but that would be specifically the Livet River. But it was also the term used when whiskey was illegal in Scotland, like in the 1700s. Glenlivet meant the region where you got illicit whiskey and this is in the north center of what we eventually call space side, uh, on the north side of the cairngorns. But it was that back then.

01:58:42
Glenn livid literally meant illicit whiskey and this is where you got it from, uh, and so when regulation comes to whiskey, when they actually here's how we're going to tax it. So, for the 1823, right away a distillery is announced, it was already there and they call it. That's in 1824. And what did they call it? They called it glenn levitt. Right, that's that's where it comes from. And remained the only was distillery on the river, a livet, until 1966.

01:59:12
Wow, so, even though and space side only becomes, even though they started using that term, like it only became an official term in 2009,.

01:59:20
Right, like, we take all these things for granted, but a lot of them are more recent than you realize, and Glenn Livitt were also guys who popularized the concept of a single mall.

01:59:28
Like, a lot of these things come from that part of the world, and the River Livitt is not a, it's one of the smaller rivers come from that part of the world, and the River Livid is not a huge, it's one of the smaller rivers. It does feed into the Avon River, which then moves down towards the north and you have the famous Bridge of Avon, which was built in the early 1800s, and that's where Ballin Dalloch is, which we've talked about before in Cragganmoor, and then that continues on into the Spey River, then there's lots of distilleries around the spay river before you ultimately end up in the north sea. So inver gordon distilleries, which is not in the spades in the northeast part of the highlands and it's actually a grain distillery, owned a set of distilleries back in the early days, including brookladdock and tulabard and injura, which we talked about I love that you just rattled us right up.

02:00:13
Okay, yes, yep. And so in 1966, when whiskey's doing extremely well, uh, and they need more capacity, they build this new distillery on the river livet called tamnavulin, near the town of tamnavulin, and so it's all for blending they. And although they started, they did a little bit of single malt in the early days and they had a little visitor center in the 1990s, which is all closed now. In fact, if you get a picture currently of the Tanevulin distillery, where it used to have the sign that says Tanevulin, it now says no visitors. Now everything changes. In 1993, when White and McKay again when I talked about Jerry, we talked about White and McKay buys the Invergordon distiller, so that's the grain distillery, along with the other single malt distilleries, and they actually, because business is slowing down, shut down Tamnavula. They just mothball it because the demand is not that high and this is not a well-known brand, so it's an easy one to shut down. And then when United Spirits buys them, they reopen, and that's in 2007 and starts to run it again.

02:01:13
There's a famous controversy around this distillery because and specifically united spirits because in 2013, diageo started buying shares of of united spirits to do a hostile takeover and the scottish government intervened and said yes, you can buy united spirits, but you can't buy any of the distilleries. Oh, interesting, and so they. And so they already own the shares and now they tank the value on them. So they had to finish the buy, but they ended up selling off uh white and mckay to emperor door, which I mentioned last time. We were talking about jira, which is this uh liquor conglomerate out of the philippines, but that's how that went down in 2014. It was because the Scottish government intervened in a Diageo hostile takeover. So, and only in 2016 did it. I'm sorry to interrupt, you don't have this with you. Which the whiskey?

02:02:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You do this every week. Every week you have whiskey with you. I can't get it in.

02:02:11 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I'm here. They're searching all the bags. I can't get it in. What the hell's wrong with you?

02:02:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm sorry, you can't get whiskey in. I'm really sorry.

02:02:17 - Richard Campbell (Host)
No, they're searching all the bags.

02:02:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They can't get it in. You should have done this in the hotel room then, yeah.

02:02:29 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I'm next to you and later and, by the way, good luck finding this Do you have some in the hotel. I have whiskey in the hotel, but not this, not a ton of them.

02:02:37 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, a ton of them. We get something that is as described here, is very similar.

02:02:43 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's a sherry cask Speyside.

02:02:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You kind of can't go wrong. It's a scotch that has been kind of calmed down with some bourbon. Yeah, it's always started in bourbon barrels right, totally.

02:02:59 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And then made even better with, and then you finish like nine months in a cherry cast. No, this is, to me, is the ideal classic spay, a hundred percent. And this is what's. What's interesting is that, with this distillery is in 2016. After all, the shuffling is done, an emperor door kind of goes. Well, what are we going to do with this? Right, because they don't need the blending capacity, although they are still using it, like they're still white and black and white which white mckay makes, like there's a bunch of blending whiskeys that they are using. That's the main thing. That tamavu.

02:03:20
These guys put a four million liters a year and you haven't heard of them. Right, it's not. But because almost all their whiskey goes in the blends. But they did start a line of single malts nominally, this one, this sherry cast only for 2019. It's relatively new, is it only you like?

02:03:37
Primarily uk, based, primarily uk, but I did find it on total wine for 40. That's incredible. It's not expensive? Yeah, right, but again, because they're not branding at all, they're not spending the marketing money. Whiskey is not expensive to make, right, it just isn't.

02:03:52
And the barrel the most interesting thing about this distillery, if you actually actually go study it, is it has massive rack houses Instead of long low rack houses covering the hills, because it's so steep in the valley on the Livot River it just go up. They've got 10 barrels high, very tall, 40,000 barrels they can store, and it's not just Tamnavulin, they store for a bunch of the other distilleries, uh, that are owned by white and mckay, really, emperor dorano, um and so it's a good aging space because it's very cool there down in the low part of the of the valley. It's an excellent place to age whiskey, but it's not big. So they, they build these tall rack houses and that's how they store their whiskey there. And so, again, the vast majority of this stuff you're going to find in various blends made by emperor door, uh, and the few single malts there are.

02:04:40
There's a couple of wine finishes, but this one is shit. This sherry cask is a classic spay. It is a perfect spay. I could put a wrapper over that cover. You would never know. You wouldn't know what the heck it was. There's like 15 whiskeys from the space.

02:04:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
My favorite scotch is literally as exactly described like this, like and it's.

02:04:57 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And again, what makes me laugh is I'll bet you, if I could put, I could put a mcallen 12 beside, again covered, and this side by side, and taste me go that they're the same and the mcallen 12 is 150 bucks, yep, and this is 35 dollars. Right, wow, right. It's a classics bay with no branding.

02:05:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Tamna Volan, tamna Volan, sherry finished.

02:05:17 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And you seriously don't have any with you right now. I don't have any with me. I'm really sorry.

02:05:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He said it to me. Actually, Yarno had a good suggestion Next time take two bottles, One for security and one for Paul.

02:05:29 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Nice.

02:05:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
As long as you share, everybody's happy. Yeah, yeah, that's our brown liquor segment for the day. Thank you very much to uh joe esposito for the cover art.

02:05:42 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I love this like an, like an ad for an episode of heart to heart from the like early.

02:05:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It is such a great font it's such a great.

02:05:48 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I still think that's like an rcmp jacket.

02:05:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh, definitely, they're trying to be respectful but it says microsoft with the microsoft logo it's great microsoft security uh, he's in charge.

02:06:01 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, I know you have.

02:06:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You have more things you'd like to be doing there than sitting in a studio doing windows weekly, but we might go drink whiskey. We appreciate it because you gave us, uh, an insight, a look into what's going on at bill. This week, paul thurott writes and will write more about this, I'm sure, at thurottcom t-h-u-r-r-o-t-tcom, his books windows everywhere and the field guide for windows 11 available at leanpubcom.

02:06:32 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's uh how long you gonna stay out there the whole week, paul, when you're going back tomorrow morning tomorrow okay, then friday we leave for the I'm gonna drive I'm driving north tomorrow too, because I fly to south africa on saturday oh man, you guys are traveling.

02:06:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, we'll have a great trip. Richard campbell's at run his radiocom that's where you'll find run his radio, and dot net rocks his podcasts, and you'll find both of them here on our channel, on our network, every Wednesday, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 1800 UTC. Wherever they are in the world, they're always here on Tuesday and you should be too. You can watch it live if you're a club member in our club Discord, but also on YouTube, twitch, tiktok, facebook, linkedin, xcom and Kik.

02:07:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Watch the live streams, but that's to this day. I still have no idea what kick is I.

02:07:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm really confused every time you say that I I'm not even sure it exists.

02:07:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think you just throw a random one, a word in there, just to see if anyone I know them, because they.

02:07:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They sponsor an f1 team, they have a lime green car and kick sauber. So I've heard of them. For that reason, uh, they're I think they're partly owned by stake I don't know and stakes a gambling entity. They also they're partly owned by catch and also throw catch and throw the big three. Uh, after the fact, on demand versions of the show available at our website, tv slash ww, there's audio and video. Uh, there's, of course, video on the youtube channel dedicated to windows weekly great place to go to share clips from the show.

02:07:57
And the best way to get it subscribe in your favorite podcast client. You can get it automatically the minute it's available for free. For free, just look for Windows Weekly. And, if you wish, it would be very nice if you would leave us a five-star review, because people pay attention to those reviews. So give us a nice thumbs up, if you will. A reminder that club members and everybody should subscribe to our free newsletter at twittv slash newsletter Great way to keep up on what's going to happen in the days to come on Twit. So I know sometimes we surprise you, we go out of nowhere with a build keynote and that kind of thing. All of that will always be promoted in the newsletter, and that's free twittv slash newsletter. Thank you, paul, thank you, richard. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks to all of you, winners and dozers, for joining us and we will see you next time on windows weekly bye on Windows Weekly Bye-bye.