Windows Weekly 909 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

00:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul Theriot and Richard Campbell are here. They're both home for the holidays and with lots to talk about. Paul is a little upset about the world worrying about Microsoft AI. He's going to correct a misapprehension that even Steve Gibson got wrong yesterday. We'll also talk about unreliability problems in 24h2. What a shock. And flight simulator 2024 is a cluster. We'll let you finish the sentence next on windows weekly podcasts you love from people you trust. This is Twit. This is Windows Weekly with Paul Theron and Richard Campbell, episode 909, recorded Wednesday, november 27th 2024. Shaved, toasted and charred. It's time for Windows Weekly, the show we gather together and worship at the feet of microsoft.

01:08 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, let me, let me, let me help that's paul thurot. He is more of a ranter than a worshiper, like the like that general that used to appear on tv during the first iraq war and he's like everything's fine, we're doing great we're beating back the american imperialists general westmoreland.

01:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Was that westmoreland? No, the guy from iraq, oh, yeah, yeah stuff was blowing up behind him.

01:31 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
He's like everything's fine bagdad billy or whatever yeah, yeah, bagdad bob yeah I don't think his name was bob also with us.

01:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Ladies and gentlemen, mr richard campbell. He is in his beautiful estate in Lower Madeira Park. Oh, look at the view.

01:48 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Holy cow, classy calm.

01:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That is gorgeous. That's what's nice about a heavy rain is after it's so beautiful.

01:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Now, you know, the ocean can be mean, but not today. She's a cruel mistress.

02:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Richard is from RunnersRadiocom. He does that and dot net rocks with carl franklin. He joins us every wednesday, as does paul, because it's time for the winners and dozers report. Indeed, I, uh, I'm gonna ask you about a little rant. That, mr stephen gibson, that mr stephen gibson. Oh good, okay did yesterday, but I'll wait till we get to now.

02:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I want to guess what it was about. What do you think it was about it's gonna be? Was it about windows as an open platform? No one, that was it was about windows resiliency. No, was it about recall and click?

02:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
to do. It was close, it was about the connected, oh, the experience. Oh yeah, yeah, experience, right, and I want to get some more. Once you, when we get to that, just say, yeah, what did steve think of that? And I'll actually okay, yep, sure, because I want to get your uh input on it. Uh, because steve was irate.

03:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But I'm not sure it was. I don't think he understood the the that's what I think, but I don't think he understood what was really happening, which is kind of the problem there.

03:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But okay, we'll get to it well, that's what I want to talk about but meanwhile we can get to it right now.

03:14 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Do you want to talk about it right now?

03:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
well, so yeah. So the idea is microsoft 365 has a new kind of agreement it's not, it's not really new, but it's not new. Okay, but but uh, let me pull up his uh show notes, because that's probably the best, the best thing to do here and I can well, I mean actually.

03:33 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, yes, right to find out what he said. I, I, there were. Well, you know, this is honestly. This ties right into my tip. Uh, for two hours, from which is about as vague as it gets, but it basically amounts.

03:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He called it disconnected experiences, which gives you some idea of where he's going. Microsoft silently enabled AI training for Word and Excel, did not? That didn't happen. Yeah, he gave the impression. I think he got the impression that they were going to use your content for training their llms, and I right that's. I had to say to him I don't think that's what they're doing.

04:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
they're not okay, that's it and I I look this is a general statement the thing and I you've heard me say this before there's so much to complain about with microsoft.

04:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We don't have to make anything up, you know there's so much to complain about, he said in microsoft's documentation. Right, uh, it says connected experiences that analyze your content. Connected experiences that analyze your content are experiences that use your office content to provide you with design recommendations, editing suggestions, data insights and similar features.

04:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yep, it does say that that's true that's accurate.

04:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, you know what it doesn't say, use it to train AI. Because it doesn't do that.

04:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, it doesn't.

04:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It also says that it will preserve. It will delete stuff. For the most part, most connected experiences don't retain your content after performing their function to help you accomplish a task, and this is, I think, another thing that kind of tickled his thing. Yeah, but this. But there are a few exceptions. In those cases microsoft retains the content for as long as your account exists and it's used to support, personalize or improve that connected experience yep, this is what microsoft has been doing for probably 20 years.

05:21 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, I mean it. I mentioned.

05:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I said any spell checker has to do this. Any grammar checker has to this is nothing.

05:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Here's the problem. Like you, you have this flow chart and the flow chart the first question says is microsoft using your data to train its ai, yes or no? And if you choose yes, there's this whole litany of problems that comes down right and we're, and what we've done. Businesses don't want that. We've, no one wants it, but that's not really the point. I mean I, no one wants it, but that's not right. Um, but there is no path where we go down that direction, so the complaints that pile on top of that are meaningless. It's they're not doing it.

05:59
So, um, look I, I wrote about it. I mean, and, by the way, for whatever it's worth, the way I wrote this was not Microsoft is not training co-pilot AI on your data. It's Microsoft says it is not training co-pilot AI on your data. That's how I phrased it. Yeah, because how would we know? I mean right, but the problem is, you know, people kind of lose their minds, like if you are not familiar with Microsoft 365 and you hear this phrase Microsoft connected experiences and, like Leo just said, there's this new thing and it's like it's it's not new.

06:36
This is not new. Um, I don't know what triggered this exactly. I feel like every time there's uh like a spell check change to a privacy agreement, they have to just retell users. Hey, this is what's happening. But I think what happened was people did not look up. Leo just read a part of the Microsoft Learn page that describes Microsoft's connected experiences for Microsoft 365. It has absolutely nothing to do with training AI. It has everything to do with online features like document collaboration, spell check and spells or grammar style type stuff.

07:16 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Preferences stuff.

07:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Preferences. You know like personalization.

07:20 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Most likely to collaborate with. These are the words that you think are words most likely to collaborate with.

07:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
These are the words that you think are words. You know that kind of thing. So this episode required me to um like, do things I don't like to do. Like go read Microsoft's privacy statement. Go read Microsoft's services agreement. Just you know, cause you never know they might've slipped something in there.

07:38
They're pretty evil but it's pretty straightforward and, um, the way the way it plays out is if you're a business, nothing to worry about. End of discussion, we're done. If you're a consumer, microsoft does use the interactions you have with Copilot in Bing, in MSN, in the Copilot app in Windows 11. And, oddly, in the interactions you have with advertising, in other words, if you click on something for like a preferences-based thing, right, you have with advertising. In other words, if you click on something for like a preferences-based thing, they do actually train its AI on that. However, you can opt out of it if you want to. It's actually a pretty straightforward process. If you pay for Microsoft Copilot I always forget the name of it Pro, which is the consumer version of Microsoft 365 Copilot they do not train anything that you do, they leave you alone. So that's the end of it. That's it. That's the whole story. So, again, not to ruin my tip for later in the show, but basically what this reminds me of is sometime about a month ago.

08:38
Chris Titus is on YouTube with probably a million views by this point. Microsoft is secretly installing and enabling recall on everyone's computers. No, they are not. No, they were not. No, they will not. I will not do that on a train, I will not do it on a plane, I will not do it anywhere. It's fake, it's not real. But people, you know, we live in this world where people who don't know anything about anything have like super strong opinions about those things and they, they, they see some thing, they see some phrase like connect.

09:09
I'm not saying that this is what Steve did. I think Steve is reading other people who have complained about it. That's probably what's happening. There's some Linux site that went to town on this and and literally it was like why do you use, like why not just call it what it is AI trading? Why use other words? This is unethical from a trillion dollar corporation. How is this even legal? It's like I can't debate that. It's just that they're not doing it, like you're going nuts on something that is not a thing, and so I look like I said there's so much real.

09:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You know badness in the world. We should focus on the real. We don't have to make stuff up well, and I also feel like our job is not to spread heat but to spread light and that's a good one I like and it's tempting because of course heat generates hits yeah and heat is profitable, and so especially on youtube. It's one of the reasons I'm not thrilled about the rise of the YouTube influencer, because they're strongly incented to generate heat.

10:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh, it's a presentation, and you know and we don't care about our audience.

10:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean, we don't care about our audience.

10:17 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Hey, don do you know what Microsoft is screwing you over this week? It's like dude relax.

10:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We care more about our audience than whether we're going to get the hits and the links and views. Here's what I care about.

10:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I care when I sign into Windows and all of a sudden, onedrive is automatically backing up these folders. That was very annoying I explicitly told it not to back up many times. Yeah, so like. That to me is malicious, anti-consumer and certification.

10:40 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This whole scrapping of all my preferences because you updated the OS not acceptable. I, yeah, this whole scrapping of all my preferences because you updated the OS not acceptable. I've seen that happen on other operating systems. Well, it happens to my, you know. I update Android and boom, all the notifications are reset.

10:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, but yeah, so that's you know. I really want to say that what we as a network and what we as individuals really strive to do is to spread light, not heat, because it's complicated enough for everybody. Let's figure it out.

11:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think of it as we don't always get there, but the goal is to be helpful, not to get in your way. And when you lie to people or you just misunderstand something and then you waste their time by going on this crazy rant and you publish it wherever you publish it, and people read it and they spread it, and that's how we get to where our country is right now. So, yeah, you know you could be part of the problem or you could think for yourself, think clearly, you know and um, and you know like my reaction to this was I don't think he was malicious no, no, no, he wasn't trying to get hits, he's not that guy.

11:42
I, I know I'm sorry. I want to be super clear about that. He just didn't understand. I said to him on the show.

11:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I said you know, I don't think it's doing that, so let's check with Paul and Richard and find out tomorrow.

11:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, I wasn't. I'm not criticizing him, I'm sorry. Some of this stuff too is just a fog of war type of thing. So this, your show happens when that show and, um, you know, we're still in the early days of what's happening here microsoft has been very clear. Uh, in this case, like, excuse me, this is not what's happening.

12:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, they have to be because of their relationship with open ai and the general concern. And, by the way, open ai seems to be a little bit more likely to to ingest your stuff a little more likely. Ask the new york times how likely so they are. I think microsoft has to bend over backwards to be clear, and they are. They say it explicitly we do not collect customer data to train our llms period. Yeah, and they have to say that because businesses are very skittish about business data getting.

12:39 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Actually. That's. That's a good point and and and the reason I took it upon myself to go back and reread the relevant sections of their service agreement on a sec what are you saying here? It was the bit about Copilot Pro, but eventually, you know, I kind of parsed it and I was like no, no, no, okay, they do not, they are not. The only instance in which Microsoft trains LLMs on customer data is the thing I said before, which is consumers only, and it's Bing, msn, copilot app and advertising advertising. It's not while you're using microsoft. So to get into microsoft word with copilot you have to pay for it, and once you pay for it, they're not training their llms on you.

13:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So it's not hard, and and to and to be clear, even if you don't pay for it, they are not training their llms on you.

13:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They're not reading one drive and and training their llms nor nor looking at your actions or the powerpoint you're.

13:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You're creating right and then they are looking at it to help you to suggest images and so forth. Or you know clippy style, but they're not ingesting it for to train their llms no, they're enabling, they're very clear about that.

13:57 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They're using. Well, how do I say this? They're using your data like this is you know? Okay, let's go back in time a little bit, when Microsoft added Cortana to windows or baby to windows phone. That was first, but I don't remember the. I don't remember when this complaint come up. Some guys said to me let me get this straight. I'm going to sign into this app and then it's going to have access to my calendar. And you know, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, it's a personal assistant, dude, founder. And you know, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, it's a personal assistant, dude. If that's what you want, it has to have access to that data.

14:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You know like he was outraged by this common panic. Instagram changes their, their terms of service and so forth, and people go oh my god, they're going to sell our pictures, but they have. I think it's a misunderstanding about what permissions a piece of software needs in order to do its job and what it does need to do is read your data I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get this correct off the top.

14:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
My so this is like we talked about this last week to some degree. There's this notion that there's two windows, essentially right. There's the, the team that's responsible for the underpinnings, the, you know the resiliency stuff, the, the security foundation, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And then there's the clown car of people throwing features out every month without even testing them right. So we have to deal with that as Windows users. But the credible part of Windows, the responsible, adult part of Windows, they take this stuff so seriously.

15:23
You get into a weird situation Like you clean, install Windows 11. You look at Windows security it has a yellow bang on it and you go and you look at it and there's one to three things that are not green check mark. Everything's great, and I'm not going to remember exactly what these are off the top of my head, but one of them is like. One of them can be like reputation based protection is not enabled by default and you can enable it, but when you do, you have to go through a UAC prompt, and the reason is for that thing to work, it actually has to understand what apps you're using, which is a violation of your privacy and you have to agree to it because you agree that it understanding the apps you're using in an anonymized state. It's not like Paul is associated with these apps, but rather people are running these apps. That's how it protects you.

16:07
It uses heuristics and AI to look at the behavior of the apps and whatever, but it won't do it unless you let it, where you have to go in and manually turn them on, because it won't do it on your behalf, because it requires this little iota of anonymous data, anonymous personal data, and that's in this case, how serious they take that, and so we should sort of acknowledge that that's the reality. I mean, look, we just talked about this. There. They're also auto enabling uh photo backup and one driving a lot of people. So there's the yin and the yang you know.

16:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So this, there's a little bit of both and there's also definitely in the world a mistrust of big tech right now, and I think that, uh, that also plays into this. People are just assuming that they are bad actors yeah, which they've earned right like oh they've earned it Can't say they haven't earned it. But I think if a company says we don't do this, that the onus is on somebody else to say well, let me prove that they do it.

17:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, and so, unfortunately, these are the conversations or debates or even arguments I guess that I get into with people, which is like you know, I read this article, I explain it, I point to the documents, I quote from them and people says well, you know, that document's not worth the paper it's printed on. Okay, look, I can't help you with your basic distrust of this company, this belief that it will violate the law by not doing what it says it's going to do in a legally binding contract? I guess I, if you believe that.

17:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I want to see the proof. If you say that I want to see the proof, I want to see the evidence.

17:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I well so this is this is the way arguments have like this is the way these arguments always go. Yeah, or or they'll point to the thing I just said. Well, they said. Well, they started enabling this folder backup thing. Isn't that the same? Isn't that the same thing? And it's like no, they never explicitly like. And also, this isn't a violation of my privacy. Also, this is like claiming that forcing me to wear a motorcycle helmet or put a seatbelt on is in some way a violation of my civil liberties.

18:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, that is, that is.

18:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Okay, common sense, right, I?

18:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to, I didn't mean to get crazy there. I'm sorry, come on, let's not go too far yeah.

18:29 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, you're right. I'm sorry, um, but uh right, I was right. I'm just about to compare gates to hitler. I was just going right there, all right, so it's like a slippery slope. This is how the conversation ends, anyway um, but you know what this there?

18:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
remember 20 years ago that everybody said, no, the government has a backdoor into Windows. I know that was commonly accepted. There was never any evidence. Of course Sounds right. Of course no evidence.

18:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Now people outside of Microsoft have viewed the source code. The source code is leaked. There's no backdoor. You know what I'm saying? I mean, like, whatever the NSA can't even get into a freaking iPhone, like, do you think they come on guys?

19:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And the reason I believe Microsoft. As I've said before and I'll say it again it would be against their business interests. They're better.

19:14 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You know why I believe them? Because their AI is terrible, and if this thing was reading my data, maybe it would work. It wouldn't suck this much.

19:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It wouldn't suck so bad. Yeah, this would kill the sales of windows if this, if people found out they were doing this. It's too risky, there's no point and there's no advantage. What you don't want to read a bunch of customer garbage.

19:35 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, that's not what you want to ingest in your l so the the complaint that I the, the one complaint I keep remaking in this show, and then, for the past year, this thing about folder backup right. Not that they've ever given this response, but if you could imagine some future class action lawsuit. We're sitting there on the stand and Mike, some guy from Microsoft, is explaining why they did this and he said hey, let me read you the 17 customer stories I have from people who wrote me and said thank you, I would have lost this thing. I put on my desktop, but you backed it up to my OneDrive and I got a new computer and bang, it was back and you can at least. That issue incenses me just as a technical person who wants to configure a computer the way I want to configure it. However, I have to recognize that in many cases, maybe even in most cases, for typical consumers, mainstream users, whatever that they actually benefit from this policy Now well, we get back to this whole idea that you're not a typical consumer.

20:38
Yep, no, but I try to. But I do try to see the world through that lens. I try to think that clearly about this topic and my response, my overall take on this, is you could try to enable it, but you should let me say no. And if I say no, you should respect that choice. You know, I go through a really complex series of steps to configure Word the way I want it and then, as soon as I I'm done with it and I save a file to the desktop, which is where I want to save it, it says Whoa, wait a minute, god dude. No, you really you got to back this thing up to one drive. What are you doing? And it's like I, you, you, you just saw me do it Like I. I didn't miss click one button. I did 17 steps to get to this. Yeah, it wasn't an accident.

21:26 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I'm not fumbling my way through here.

21:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah. Or in that instance, in that stupid yellow strip that comes up, give me an option that says, yep, I got it. Yeah, don't tell me this ever again. And then it goes are you sure, I am sure? And then let me go, but it doesn't do that. So to me that's the bad behavior. Well, that and the automatic enabling of something I literally said no to seven or eight times. But whatever I I do agree. It's maybe the best configuration, the recommended configuration for maybe most people, certainly many yeah, I think that they're not doing it.

21:57
That's not what we're talking about here, right like we're not talking about that we're talking about something that's not insane, but it is insane, like like you said it would be. It would be a net negative to microsoft's business because it would be found out. You know you can't get away with anything anymore. You can't. Microsoft can't secretly be training this stuff. It would be found out. Someone would do a.

22:21
I'll be obvious a search or whatever it is, or use scope pilot. They'd be like huh, it's spit back something. I wrote the exact thing I typed in this document from 13 years ago, or whatever right so there's too many disincentives, there's no real incentive to do it.

22:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It doesn't make sense and they say explicitly they don't do it to me, case closed. And I and there's people in the chat right now saying, oh, you know, microsoft's doing it.

22:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That that's what I mean. I don't like that, because if that's where you're at, then just don't use microsoft stuff. I mean, then walk away like you have to just look. If you just don't trust that the company to that level that they literally cannot be trusted. Linux you got linux, you got to use something else. Use a mac, I mean use whatever you want either no, I, I just I don't care.

23:08
Like, use a use, use an abacus, I don't care. But you know, as long as it's not paid by the chinese, those aren't chinese is a backdoor yes, that's right. What's inside the? What the hell?

23:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
is what those beads have transmitters.

23:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I don't know. I can't solve all the world's problems. I have my own problems, but I but this one, I look I. I guess my point was I have a healthy distrust. That's a strong word, but a wariness, certainly, of Microsoft skepticism. Thank you, that I did. I did the work. I looked, you know, did something change. I don't see anything in there. I'm not the smartest guy in the world. Maybe someone else could do it and be like oh, Paul, you missed something. I don't good go for it. No, I think you're right, or just spread the hate.

23:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There are other people who would love to catch Microsoft out, who are always looking oh yeah, you'll hear about it. Now let's talk about recall, because on sunday I had a great panel smart people, okay, uh and I asked him about recall because, of course, they all lose their minds. No, oh good. I said would you, would you install this? I said yeah, I can't wait. In fact, we all agreed. I certainly believe it should go farther.

24:19 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It needs to be on all platforms to be really useful, it needs to be on all your pc so you can sync all your data as well right as an individual.

24:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
An AI that's trained on what I'm doing or can answer questions about what I'm doing, should see everything I'm doing to be really useful.

24:36 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's right. So that was my. That was the first thing I asked. I said, okay, I use I don't know 18 different computers in a year. How has this helped me if I can only have the data from one computer and have it stuck on that computer?

24:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And this is where moral panic gets us into trouble. Because Microsoft isn't doing that, because they know the out hue and cry would be so that's right.

24:55 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oddly for a company that seems so disconnected from reality. When they announced this, they actually did see that this would be a problem for people.

25:05 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But I think a group of adults took over the problem and said you guys screwed this up, but what I?

25:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
what I don't like? I'm losing a feature that I would really like, which is it to be everywhere. That's right, and make a deal with apple and google and put it on my android and iphone for that matter.

25:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
All right, don't get crazy. But, um, we, so it's gonna, it will get everywhere. Uh, it will go everywhere. Like it like a like going to it will get everywhere. It will go everywhere. Like, like, like cancer does, it will get there.

25:28
But the but in the recall announcement you actually do see those two sides of Microsoft. I was talking about our windows, I guess in this case, which is the kind of gleefully clueless Google like part of the company, it's like you trust us for our privacy protections and security, and we're like I'm sorry, what did you say? You trust us for our privacy protections and security and we're like I'm sorry, what did you just say? Like I, like the most people in the audience, like are you describing someone else? Because that's not how we think of you. Um, but then they also, uh, take the security and privacy, um, um, strongly enough to actually, you know, build in some pretty serious protections, right, yeah, um. The biggest mistake they made made, though, was they were going to announce it. They were going to release it to the public without testing it privately at all, like, granted, I know in preview, but seriously, I think it was like deadlines right, they were trying to beat the deadlines this was a huge, huge mistake.

26:18
Um, that, to me, is just the and the other thing that they were going to do. So you know people, uh, people will point at these little nitty gritty so-called security configuration changes they made. I'm not saying they didn't make any. I'm actually literally saying they didn't make any. But you know what, don't worry about that. Let's just agree that you're all wrong and I'm right and we'll just move on. See how easy that is. No, no, no.

26:45 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's not what I'm sorry, I'm joking.

26:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm sorry, that's how that works. No, no, let's disagree that. Try that on stephanie I'm just curious.

26:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I it doesn't work with her at all, actually, um so strange I. Yeah, let's not go down that path. So, um, with recall, let's just say that I, to my opinion, the biggest changes, the most material changes to this feature or app, whatever you want to call it, or I think there are three of them. So one is that they called it optional, but what they really meant was opt out, which is gross. Now it's opt in, so it's not enabled by default. You have to opt into it to use it.

27:20
And, by the way, this came up last week or sometime in the past, richard, you will remember this. This, one of the weirdest, one of the weird things about windows 11 on arm Snapdragon version with all the LLMs, is like they're going to provide us with this ISO, are the LLMs going to be included? And we know that because it's 5.1 gigabytes or whatever, they are not huge. So what's that experience like? Well, that experience is like you go to run an ai feature and it says hold on a second, we're going to download something, and it downloads the llms that that feature needs and each time you use one of those features. That's how that will work, if you do like a true clean install with the windows 11 on arm iso. That's how recall works. So you install this new build in the dev channel of the windows insider program, which, by the way, doesn't take very much time at all because I think it's just installing the app. Honestly, yeah, um you know.

28:10 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I know this should always be downloaded, like everything that can be downloaded should be downloaded I couldn't agree more.

28:15 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
but again, I I think that's the xbox. It's like they're trying to do the right thing but it's not the right thing for everybody and they don't give the people that just want that the the ability to do that. It's so complicated, I don't understand it. But anyway, so you install Recall, you reboot. You're like great, you run Recall. It's like nope, you got to go to Windows Update, install something, like all right. So you go to Windows Update, you install something. It takes a little while. All right, go back to Recall. All right here. Go back to recall all right, here we go. Nope, still gotta go back to windows update, gotta install another thing all right, cool.

28:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You're like all right, this is it. You go back. Nope, there's one more thing. There's three llms you got to install. They don't install together.

28:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's crazy. I don't know why. Maybe that changes, but right now, when I did it not the case, yeah, all right. And then you run this thing and you're like, huh, that's all it does. It just, it did all that for this. It just runs in the background, it uses 0.006% CPU and now I have 3 million screenshots of me browsing for pants on Amazon. Dear God, why? And it's, and you wonder. Oh, and by the way, every time you look away from the damn thing and come back, it does the Windows Hello ESS experience, which is a rather tedious process of authenticating. I think we talked about this last week. This notion of it doesn't just come up with. The Windows Hello thing with a little eyeball goes is it you? And when it finds you, it gives you a little OK button in the dialogue you have to click to get by it, you just recognize.

29:49
I know it makes me crazy but, this is what happens again, all the outrage, you know. Whatever.

29:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, fine so starting to feel like they're actually. I felt this way for a while. There's a group of people who don't like anything.

30:01 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yep and they just complain and complain and complain and they're really stopping tech like I think we.

30:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think this is out there, but it's possible that ai could be a transformative technology. It's possible I'm not saying it's going to happen but it could be a transformative technology that brings us into a future of flying cars and fusion electricity basically free electric, all sorts of things. Yeah so, but we may never get it because people are so afraid of it that they stymie it, and it bothers me that we're not getting stuff that we could get it bothers me scaredy cats I've raised this issue a few times this year um this notion that the most technical people are the ones who are holding us back you know, interestingly, in my I don't know 16th, 63 reading of Steve Mastanofsky's book, I was reminded of this phrase.

30:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They had have, or had anyway, inside Microsoft called the basement. Have you heard this term? No, so this is from one of the. I think it's die hard, die hard and live free, one of the diehard movies. There's a. There's a technical guy that work laurak, and he lives in the basement. And these are the technical experts.

31:08
These are the smartest that we know this thing inside now. And so when you design a product like windows or office or whatever it is, and then you change the ui or you change the way it works, what you're doing is making life better for everybody hopefully.

31:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean, that's your goal.

31:24 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm sorry, your goal except for the guy in the basement, or the audience that will describe collectively as the basement, because these guys already know every little in and out of this thing as it is, and now you're changing it and they hate it because you've made them less, you've moved useful or valuable right.

31:40 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's a lot of value in knowing where that cheese is and yep, and, and so this is a phenomenon that is not new.

31:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
it's been around for a long time. This came up in the discussion about windows 8 and the start screen and all that kind of stuff, whatever. But, um, and you know, I just have to say in my own experience, it's real and I, and the way, the way it exhibits itself for me, is, um, like they announced this thing in May. They were going to ship it in June. They delayed it. There was some news over the summer, but not really. And then September they're like this is what we're doing.

32:12
So over the course of time, I've had to write about this thing eight to 12 times, whatever it is, and every time you get the same three or five idiots who are like I'll never install this thing, I'll never use it. I'll never install this thing, I'll never use it, I'll stop using windows if I have to. And it's like hey, thanks for jumping in Great conversation. Um, what are you doing here? Or maybe a better example is like when you write something about Apple and there are these guys who just hate Apple, they'll never use anything. Apple makes they, I. But they seize on a story about Apple and they get it, just so they can get into it. Like, screw this company, I would never I would never waste money on an Apple product.

32:43
It's like, hey, thanks for jumping in. What do you, what do you? What is it you're doing, like? What do you think you're doing here and I? This is a good example of something that I, like Leo said. I think it's going to benefit a lot of people. I think it will be even better when you know it's. We talked about this notion that maybe ai solves search, finally right, this thing that microsoft has tried to solve so many times over so many decades, that by analyzing things instead of building indexes and making people add metadata and blah, blah, blah, blah. I used I was joking about the pants thing, by the way, but I did go to a site and look at some green pants so I could later type in green pants and see if it came up Shocker.

33:29
You never actually owned green pants is what you said no, I did, I was seven and they matched. There were geranimals that matched the top with the bottom or something I don't know, a long time ago. But the point of it was just to give it some nonsense, excuse to, or me uh, an excuse, just to try something. I I knew what the result would be, so I could see what happened, right Right, so it works. Great, it works. I mean, my life hasn't imploded, hackers haven't entered my network.

33:57 - Richard Campbell (Host)
The police haven't seized all my blood. It is essentially a search product, right Is that the software now is analyzing these screenshots and creating a summary of it, so you go do a search into that data set I want it, I want it everywhere yeah, the thing, the thing they didn't say at the time, back in may, that they did say in september, and I'm not 100 sure I tied these two things together.

34:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They're not always together, but was the click to do piece, which, by the way, terrible, google, like name, but whatever let's get. Um, it's one thing to find something that you're looking for Great but the next step is, you know, triggering some action, like doing something with that thing you found. Now, depending on what you're looking for. Maybe that's obvious, right, I don't know. But you can also go through your recall data database or catalog, whatever they're calling it, and it will do text recognition. If there's text in an image, it will do image recognition. Obviously, if it's an image, whatever's in the image, and then you can right-click on that thing and it will give you actions that you can do on that thing that are related to that thing. They're contextual right Now.

35:11
This is another example of something that's going to be amazing when third parties can link into it, right, like it's pretty good, what's there now, because it's Microsoft stuff. So if it's an image, you know, obviously you could edit this thing with paint or something or whatever. Like that stuff's all obvious. If it's uh text, you could do things like uh summarize it, make it longer, make it shorter, whatever. Um, that's obvious. But someday there'll be an api. It will probably be called oh, I don't know the copilot runtime or some stupid thing like that.

35:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Uh, just guessing. Just guessing more like a gentic co-pilot. I feel like that's where you're headed where you are.

35:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm trying to think of a third part, like maybe I use affinity photo and now it can say something like remove the background of this image using affinity or I'm just making something up, but that's not even a really good example but, um, or take this text and make a video with it using AI, using some app or whatever it might be. So this stuff is all really very much. I was going to say 1.0. It's not even 1.0. Right, it's still a preview. It's still playing around with it.

36:16 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Point five, or whatever it is. Well, I think about that. Google does this to me all the time, where it takes a set of pictures that things are the same, which I'm pretty sure they're using a machine learning model to pull those pictures together, and then makes me a little animated sequence of them. And then, yes, did you want to save this? Because I made this for you yeah, yeah, I, I, uh.

36:35 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I just went through a thing with. I've been using google photos for years and for some reason the other day it was like hey, do you want to take a few seconds to uh identify some people? We think we know who they are, but we just want to make sure. And uh, you know, it's like saddam hussein and hitler. And then my sister you know, it's like and it's like are they related? I'm like, yeah, I think they might be, but no, um, no, but it's like uh one of the things.

36:57
That's what I get, yeah one of the things that yeah, one of the things that's fascinating about uh Photos explicitly is that it can identify a picture of my daughter when she was two, right, and a picture of my daughter when she's 23, and say these are the same people, aren't they? And it's like yikes, and yes, they are. That's useful, though, isn't it?

37:16 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, right after the dog died it was really good at putting an assembly of my dog's pictures together and going hey look at this.

37:21 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's like hey thanks for that. I really enjoyed that yeah, no, we still do.

37:25 - Richard Campbell (Host)
We have the same thing and we have well I very consciously rounded up all the pictures of the dog and put it in a folder away, because I really don't want to look at them for a while yep, yeah, yeah, no, we have the same issue.

37:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So, um, anyway, uh, what we talk, so, recall, yeah, so, so here's the thing. So I talked, talked about the basement, I talked about these. You know the technical people. Just, I can't stand that this even exists. It's we get that you're never going to use it. Here's an idea, quietly, just never use it.

37:54
You know you don't have to hear about it, but you guys are all familiar with the register, right? These are the guys who, like you know, 20 years ago, every time they mentioned Microsoft, it was micro sloth and, I think, with a dollar sign instead of an s, you know that kind of thing. And they always like, uh, you know, users were punters, like this kind of stuff. So these guys are.

38:14
So they're they're a typical example of the basement super anti, um, recall, wanted this thing to go away, can't believe it's coming out. And now that it's out, they have to complain about it. And I'm, look, I think it's coming out, and now that it's out, they have to complain about it. And look, I think it's fair to say I am bracing for the first report where some security researcher says hey, I found a problem with this thing, by the way, I haven't heard anything like that of you, so not yet. Not yet so interesting, because they found that really early last time when they hacked into it and made it look like something stupid that we needed to worry about.

38:48 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But anyway, I have no doubt they're hammering away at it. By the way, I'm not unhappy that they are, because if there is a vulnerability, I think everybody wants to know about it I'm not unhappy either.

38:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think this I listen, I I. What I said at the time was similar to what I said earlier in the show. Look, we can't make stuff up. Let's see what happens when it's out. Then we we'll you know, then we can talk about it.

39:02
Anywho, the registry, the register, has a story about the problems now that it's out, and it is hilarious not purposefully, because what they want to say is yeah, it's a security problem. I got in as an admin and I got into the encrypted database. They said we weren't going to be able to do that. It's none of that. This, these are the problems. This is. This is unbelievable. It's a little slow making snapshots what? What? It's a little slow. In other words, let me ask you a question. Like you're doing something right now that maybe in the future you might want to search for the thing you're doing right now. Like I'll use the green pants thing. Yep, when do you not need to search for that? It's right when you did it? Yeah, you're, it's sitting there in the browser tab. I don't need to find the green pants right now. But what they're saying is yeah, the green pants snapshot didn't take it immediately. Like I had to wait like 30 seconds for it to appear.

39:58
You know, okay, what are you doing? Like I, okay, and then they're like well, the ocr stuff works great, but recognizing what's in an image, it's not as accurate. Okay, like what I mean? Like what are you talking? This is what we're complaining about. Is this why it was delayed for six months? It's a little slow. Are you kidding me? This is how awful the world can be. About nothing, it's nothing. So anyway, you know, what's something? Now, it's something.

40:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You know what's something? Our fine sponsor, us Cloud. Let me take a little break and when we come back we can talk more about whatever the hell it is you're talking about. No, no, I get it, I'm with you. I'm with you, man, with you, man, I'm right on, I'm totally with you. Uh, whatever it was that you were, let's talk about snapdragon x, co-pilot plus pcs. Okay, when we come back, how about that?

40:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
fine, fine, that's fine. I'm sorry, let me say that differently.

41:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yes, our show today sounds great. No, I want recall. I want it, but I'm not gonna get it because I don't use windows for other reasons. Anyway, our show today brought to you. Is that a bad admission? I had I had a windows machine and I was gonna, but I'm sending it to pa, so I guess maybe, paul, I could get a recommendation. How about that? That'd be good. The show today brought to you by US Cloud.

41:31
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42:29
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43:47
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44:26
I heard an interview with the Director of Information Technologies. I want to get the recording so I can play it, but I'll act it out. He said, and within an hour, us Cloud responded with, I want to say, four engineers. So not only did they bring the right guys to the call, they brought the cavalry. I just felt like wow, that was amazing. That was unlike anything I had experienced with Microsoft in my eight years of being with Premier. We made the right choice. Make the right choice with US Cloud.

44:55
Oh and, by the way, when it comes to compliance, no one gets it better than US Cloud. They're ISO, gdpr, esg compliant, and those are not for US Cloud. They're not just regulatory requirements, they do. They're strategic imperatives. They really believe in this stuff. They say it drives operational efficiency. I talked to them. I was really impressed. It drives legal compliance, of course, but also risk management, corporate reputation. These are standards that foster loyalty and trust among customers and stakeholders and attract investment and ensure long-term sustainability and success in a competitive marketplace.

45:29
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46:05 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Whatever they say, Well, I mean, you know trust but verify, Trust but verify Good way to put it. By the way, I just got an email from Microsoft about this issue.

46:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh really.

46:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, even more explicitly Microsoft does not use customer data from microsoft 365 consumer or commercial applications to train foundational llms. The connected experiences setting in microsoft 365 that people are referencing has no connection whatsoever to how microsoft trains its models. This setting is not new and it has been available since 2019.

46:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Wow, yeah, there you go yep, thank you for uh flattening that.

46:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I appreciate it I just I don't know. Like I said, I I I would you want. When I get outraged about something, I would like to think it's coming from a place that's real. You know, I mean, of course, I would like I think everyone would like to think that about themselves. I don't know but but you're.

47:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But the thing is, you're the experts and I said I told steve, I I will ask and I will find out. Paul and Richard will know.

47:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I've been hit by the wave a lot it hurts, so I don't know. I don't know what that means.

47:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't know what it means either, but I'm glad you said it. I've been on the front lines a lot.

47:27 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't know. You pretty diligently go back and reread stuff like that's.

47:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You have to go and really read it because it is corporate speak a lot. Yeah, that's part of the problem, but it's actually lawyers write it right. They need to.

47:33 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, yeah yeah, no, and like I said, I, I, I, I went back and looked I was like you never know. I mean I, I want to be sure, or whatever. But anyway, one not side issue. But I guess one issue with this whole recall thing right now is that it's only available in preview and only on Snapdragon X based co-pilot plus PCs, which means you have to take a perfectly working computer and put it in the insider program, which is not something I actually recommend for most people. Oh wow.

48:09 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So you have to go to insider to get the beta.

48:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, and it's in the dev channel, right and so whatever that was, that's not for consumers.

48:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's a little hairy.

48:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, it's not great. So, obviously it's going to make its way through the system. It's also going to make its way to AMD and Intel based copilot plus PCs. In time, we don't have a schedule for that, when those exist.

48:31
Well, they, they do exist, right, they, they, they, they, those are shipping now they just haven't. But they haven't made that transition, I guess, uh, from a branding perspective. But yeah, that's another thing that has to happen, right? So supposedly by the end of the year they'll start getting these co-pilot plus PC experiences, but we haven't heard anything about that either. So we'll see what happens, and I'm still watching closely on.

48:52 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Can I build a co-pilot plus PC for parts? Right yeah.

48:57 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So I would say the ISO release is a good step, but it's like one of maybe five steps that have to happen. A good step, but it's like one of maybe five steps that have to happen. Um, if you think back to the discussion I think we had last week about the iso, depending on the pc you have, uh, my recommendation is to go through the five or other whatever it is uh methods for recovering a computer before you ever try that because it doesn't have the drivers right. Yeah, I don't know how else to say this, but I think you would be insane to put your computer in the dev channel of the Insider Program.

49:31 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Frankly, if you have an iComputer right now, not if you need to use it for anything.

49:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, and obviously I did do that because I'm insane, but that's my job. I mean, I have to do this right.

49:40 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Your insanity. As a profession, I get that.

49:42 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, yeah, it has I have a rationale behind my insanity there you go.

49:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You mean, there's a method to your madness? Yeah, Right.

49:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
What I did do, though, however, was because Microsoft offers downloadable recovery image software you can put on a USB stick. I created it and I booted the computer and made sure it worked right. So if I want to get it back, I can get it back. You know, easily I I if, if I didn't know that I could do that, or if if you didn't know you could do that, don't, don't, don't, don't put it the dev channel. It will eventually make its way down to everybody, obviously.

50:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, boy I've learned my lesson I am. I am not.

50:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm leo's over there, like okay, which channel do I want to be in?

50:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I am not changing my channel.

50:31 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
What are you doing, man, uh? That snapdragon dev kit should be just the thing to throw in the dev channel and yeah well, that's what a dev kit and actually I think that's maybe the best possible thing to test on for trying to recover it afterwards using the, the base ISO, to see what that experience is like, because that's the one that's going to have the least, yeah, the most reference hardware Good news.

50:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Paul, I forgot to reset it, so it's got all my crap on it. So go ahead, I'll just pull it away. I'll nuke it from orbit, as we say. Nuke it from space, yeah it away from.

51:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'll uh, nuke it from orbit, as we say, from space, yeah, um, yeah, anyway, just as a bit of advice, I mean I I wrote an article about this when the iso came out a couple weeks ago. Please look at it and and think about the, what you can do, and if you have a, an hp or lenovo, whatever type of co-pilot plus bcc, whether they offer something. I gotta look up, frankly, um, whether they offer those recovery images, because you want that, you want the ability to get out of it.

51:27 - Richard Campbell (Host)
The manufacturer's recovery yeah.

51:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
First, there's a. There's a capability in windows, when you enroll a PC in the insider program, to opt out automatically when this version of windows ships. I'm not saying it doesn't work anymore at all, but it mostly doesn't work. And because these don't map to a next version of windows per se, uh, they're uh, the dev channel and, I think, the beta channel are both testing features that might or might not be added later to 24 inch. Two right now Doesn't mean that there'll be some switch over where you'll get out of it automatically. I wouldn't trust that. So, uh, just be you know. Just be sure you can get out of it automatically. I wouldn't trust that. So, uh, just be you know. Just be sure you can get out. That's my point, okay? Uh, I think that's about it. On the recall thing, unless you'd like to beat that to death a little more, I think we've beaten it up pretty well.

52:16 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Okay, let's, let's you know, talk about how much fun 24h2 is yeah, so every week there's another problem with 24H2.

52:24 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And I think I'm just going to make this a permanent part of the show.

52:28 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This week on Broken 24H2.

52:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, what broke this week in 24H2? Or like, why don't I have 24H2 yet? You know it might be this. So this week Microsoft added a new set of blockers to the Windows 11 24-H2 upgrade, which is certain Ubisoft games recent games Assassin's Creed, valhalla, origins, odyssey, star Wars, outlaws yeah which is built on the same engine. Oh, is that Okay? Apparently, those games will exhibit problems if you in-place upgrade from 23 to 24-H2, and it's working on a resolution with ubisoft, so for right now, it's just going to block so the point being, if you have any of those games installed, it's literally just not going to offer you 24 h2 now.

53:13
But the problem is it probably it might have before. So if you experience problems there, you go. Yeah, there's all kinds of other problems with this thing. There's, like, certain intel drivers causing problems.

53:24 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They're still battling drivers easy cheat, the easy anti-cheat too, the anti-cheat stuff is causing a lot of this I mean, I understand the driver stuff, because that's all that low level behavior. And the chips, that's finally different. The, the anti-cheat, I even buy into too, because it has to do some sneaky things to detect cheaters yeah I mean, it's actually pretty much driver, it's probably it's pretty much drivers right like, like.

53:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Isn't it like a VPN type thing or something?

53:47 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, it's sniffing pretty low. The Ubisoft one is interesting. It just means they've done something sneaky, likely in video, Yep Right, and they're poking into Ring Zero on video and the ARM machine is like nope.

54:02 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, that sounds about right yeah, so anyway, maybe I don't know if this is. I don't know where this falls in the list of problems with 24h2, but it's uh. It's lower on the list, I would say you know, they complain all along.

54:15 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, for arm at least was the game this is 24h2 on anything. That's right. It's just you know. Again, I wonder how much of this is ARM adaptation creating issues? Yeah, I don't know. It's you know. Going back to Aria Hansen, that run of the show, it's like 24H2 is a new version of the OS.

54:36 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, Right, and because it just kind of it's Windows 11. So you're like it doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but there was a lot of foundational work that went into this, which was one of the reasons why it wasn't an enablement package. But what do they call it? A full OS wipe or something? Yeah, Um, which is a tough tough way.

54:55 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's a big hill, it's a big lift, you know, and I I get it, but I don't know. I feel bad about using these terms, like why would you just?

55:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
make it a new OS. It could have been Windows 12. Right, it's mostly support lifecycle related, I would imagine.

55:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But yeah fair enough.

55:13 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, yeah.

55:14 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So Windows 11, when it first came out in 2021, was new UI, but the underprintings were the same. The same, yeah.

55:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So now we have this one that looks exactly the same, basically, but now the underpinnings are not completely closed, but they've been significantly updated certainly a corporate thing, where win 11 was just a no-go because a whole lot of group policy broke. Yep, yep, and it's like sorry not doing it.

55:37 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so they filled that in this came up, yes, last week, because we talked about ignite and the resiliency thing thing. But it's fascinating to me that Microsoft has kind of retroactively made real the claims for the higher Windows 11 hardware requirements, right, that now there's all these built-in security controls that really do differentiate Windows 11 from Windows 10. Whereas in the beginning it was like, well, you know the first two, two and a half, whatever three versions. It was like well, you know the first two, two and a half or whatever three versions. It was like not really right, I mean. But now you're like, oh no, now it's. You know, all the new computers I've gotten recently have windows. Hello, ess on it. Right, right, this is a stringent new uh security requirement, yeah, requirement. It's like crazy and getting the industry to just adopt something like that is again back to what's my goal here.

56:27 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Building this next pc is can I make it hello ess compliant from components, and I'm I know I know ess is going to be tough. That I don't, that, I don't think so well, I'm really wondering like can I buy a camera assembly, that's the infrared camera and so forth, to just attach the top of a monitor? I don't know, you can't I don't think it's not.

56:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Not, we're not with ess. I don't think so all right.

56:49 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So I'm just gonna have, I'm gonna dismantle a laptop and turn that monitor, all those parts, into a display. That would be a weird waste of resources, wouldn't?

56:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
maybe I mean, um, they don't make them anymore. But when intel nux were a thing and I would imagine for other NUC-like computers today, depending on how you bought it you got this kind of complete computer but without the RAM and the storage. That was one of the configurations. Well, yeah, I bought it and yeah, and so you can. It's nice because it's upgradable and you can do what you want with it and all that kind of stuff. But you could make an argument that I mean, obviously there was no camera with that or fingerprint reader, but they could have been and that could have been an ess computer if they made them today. And adding ram and storage doesn't change the that fact. Like it's, that stuff's fine. Like you're not, um, you know you're not bypassing anything or whatever by doing that. So that's a possibility. Well, it's not a possibility. They don't make them anymore. Anyway. Maybe there will be pc kits for 24-inch to and forward where that's the case, where it's like an ess compliant kit, and then you just add the other stuff.

57:55 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's not security related, maybe yeah, and you know, and I have friends in the right places too, so I could go so far as to poke in on this and say, like can I third party buy a component that would normally be you?

58:06 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
know, for a builder could I buy a laptop motherboard?

58:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
you know, is it? You need a TPM? What chip? Oh no, it's everything. It's the camera it's everything.

58:17 - Richard Campbell (Host)
No facial recognition.

58:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Part you have to go look this up on Microsoft learn. It's crazy. There's some list of like 27 requirements. It has to be factory certified by Microsoft and the PC maker to meet all of the requirements that this thing has never been no, you can't add to it. You can't add it. Once you add an external camera, an external fingerprint reader, you don't have ESS anymore.

58:38
It will not work because it can't guarantee that the system has never been compromised. There's something you could have put something in the line that reads the keystrokes, or your fingerprint, or whatever.

58:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is a response to the weird super micro fake issue that Bloomberg raised years ago about the little Chinese rice chip placed on the micro motherboard so it could spy on you. Yeah, they really want to control the supply chain, the whole chain, and they won't certify it secure until until they can do.

59:07 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Maybe they need to. Yeah, now I'm looking at that means it's not going to be a build your own pc now.

59:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's going to be tough well, no, but that's why I said if you could build, if you could have a pc kit, yeah it was the ess an ess kit that would have a security solution or two security solutions.

59:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean, what else is there?

59:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
well, there's the case, the ram, the storage, the, and then other peripherals that you could have keyboard, mouse, whatever screen you know yeah.

59:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But I mean, can't you buy an esspc that doesn't that you could upgrade the ram and the peripherals?

59:37 - Richard Campbell (Host)
in the monitor. It's a real, I mean full stop. Is there a desktop off the shelf? Hello, ess became a so during the next ad break.

59:44 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm going to go take a look and find out, because Do some shopping? I know there I bet no, I mean I think I have one. I'm going to go find out, but I it's probably a laptop, right?

59:56
No, I mean a desktop PC. So it's an all-in-one computer with a built-in webcam, right? So I think I bet it is ess. I'm gonna go look. I, I'm trying to think, I I can't remember. Yes, I can. So probably over the summer, first gen meteor, like like computers well, even those could be ess. I'm trying to remember the last time I had a non-ess laptop in for review, it was early this year. It's been a while like they're very common. Now all of a sudden they came out of nowhere like they were. This was like a unicorn last year, like you could get them, but who?

01:00:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
needs this.

01:00:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Enhanced sign-in security, yes, well this is going to become the baseline rig. So this is the baseline requirement for co-pilot plus pc, and one of the things we talk about is how this will, over time, become the baseline requirement for windows, like all pcs. Yeah, so this is the beginning of that and um, but the thing is, uh, well, no, most of them are, I guess, technically the you know like amd, intel style co-pilot plus pcs. But even before that you could get like a first gen meteor lake if configured that way by the pc maker. Again, expensive, hard to do, um, that could have it.

01:01:03
I did have some, or at least a couple, but it was rare, it's on, it was unusual. Now it's become very common, at least in the premium, uh, pc space. Anyway, it's part of the. This is, you know, you're trying to bring an industry along with you. It's not like Apple's, like, we just switched over. Now we're doing this new security thing. You know you got to get the buy-in of all the chip makers and the PC makers. It's, you know it's a little complicated.

01:01:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And the PC master race is not going to like this, right, Richard?

01:01:33 - Richard Campbell (Host)
No, I just want to be able to build one, that's all.

01:01:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, but I bet you, I mean, that sounds like something you can't, Well, okay, but what's the downside here?

01:01:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So, in other words, let's say you can't, you can't, you can't build one right. So you build a computer. It's based on whatever chips you have, so you'll have Windows Hello, or you could right, Depending on the hardware you choose. You just won't have Windows Hello ESS. So from a user experience perspective, it's basically identical. I think the big difference from using it is just that Windows Hello ESS requires you to authenticate way more like, way more. There's no like in windows Hello. There's a setting that says after I've been gone from the computer for whatever number of minutes, forced me to authenticate. That's great. Out in ESS, you authenticate every time. If you turn this way and come back, authenticate you know.

01:02:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
that's why I don't think it will be all windows back authenticate.

01:02:27 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You know. That's why I don't think it will be all windows at some point. I mean, you're gonna make people angry if you're gonna take yeah, really angry it's gonna.

01:02:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's okay for a business that needs enhanced security, but I want to play valheim at home. Yeah, I don't need that. And I want to build my own pc.

01:02:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I don't need that yeah, but you're that the people that actually say that are a tiny percentage of the user base. I mean it is a PC, so you're going to have this option. Like this will be an option. I guess what I'm trying to say is you know, in Richard's case he's going to build his computer. It's not going to be ESS. So what Is it okay? Like it's okay, right?

01:03:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, so you will be able to put it on windows on a pc that doesn't have that full enhanced. Yeah, you can still do. I mean I definitely want to try and get the co-pilot plus pc standard but if they require hello ess for that. That's a problem, right which is weird because it's not.

01:03:15 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Ai has nothing to do with ess no, I mean they, but they've tied them together because of things like recall, where you you want that kind of data highly secure. So it's steve gibson's fault, totally yeah, I blame steve all the time okay, I get it.

01:03:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, they want enhanced security.

01:03:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I understand, yeah, I just to be clear, because everyone seems to confuse this matter. That was the case the day they announced.

01:03:40 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Recall this is not new, right, this is no. No, it's not new. They just did a bad job.

01:03:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It wasn't explaining right, but now they're just going along like well, we have a new security architecture. It's like, do you? Because I'm looking at the thing you wrote back in may and they look the same. But you know, whatever, again, not, I will beat that to death if you let me. You know, let's spend an hour on it. No, um, okay, so it'll be. So I've got that. Um, there's. There are no insider bills. This week it's thanksgiving holiday in the us.

01:04:09 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Last week we did later today when, as soon as we're finished the show, yes, it's right in the middle of it, right now, that I've said that it just went up, the air comes, uh waiting there was a new beta channel build last week that has, um, an early peak.

01:04:24 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It kind of we're going to call it like what's the apple, not handoff, maybe this handoff that's. Is that continuity, is that the apple stuff? When you can pick up something where you left off on a different device, what's that called handoff, right? I don't remember, I don't know on a mac it's yeah, handoff, handoff, yeah, so microsoft would like to do as much of that as they can. In Windows, it's probably going to be Android only, obviously, but actually not a phone.

01:04:49
Yeah, well, the idea is you're working on a document on your phone or tablet or something and you go home, or whatever it is, log into your computer and you get a little pop-up that says, hey, would you like to keep working on that document? And so this assumes you one, you know. This assumes you're using one, you know storing the thing in one drive and blah, blah, blah, whatever. And, by the way, when you click yes, obviously it enables folder backup, because you know microsoft um, and then?

01:05:15
no, I'm just kidding, but uh, I don't, I don't, I don't know, it's interesting. I, I get it, I, I, I can understand. This is a key pain point. I think for Microsoft that they can't duplicate this thing Apple's doing because Apple controls the whole stack. Right, this is the wall advantage of the wall iPhone, ipad, mac. It's a little easier when you control all of it. So they want that, so bad, and yeah, we'll see, okay, yeah, we'll see, okay.

01:05:44
Now, this is the same as the Microsoft 365 is using my data to train AI, and it is also exactly the opposite, and what I mean by that is people have gone online and published like a picture, like, look, they're testing this thing in Windows now, where they're not going to put the little start backup icon in File Explorer for those folders that could be backed up with folder backup. They're getting rid of, you know, forced folder backup. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What? What makes you say that?

01:06:24
This is one of I don't know seven places where it wants to remind you right Of. Maybe you should turn this feature on. I'll list a couple of the others off the top of my head pop up banner notifications, toasts in the settings app, in the start menu next to your user profile, in the one drive app, in the windows backup app, which also is advertised Like. It's only one of the ways. In fact, it's arguably the least annoying of the ways, so I'm super glad that're getting rid of it. This is a definitely a step back from the cliff, if you will, but this does not mean like it does not follow.

01:07:07 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Is this de-insertification? Is that what you're talking about? It's that, that's not even a thing.

01:07:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, like it's. You know it is a little bit, but I need to know more. So, yes, I'm glad someone found this, uncovered this in some beta build of Windows 11. Yay, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. This doesn't actually mean they're getting rid of the feature like the forced usage right. It does not mean that. I mean I wish it did, I wish I could say that.

01:07:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, what does it?

01:07:33 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
mean? It just means they're going to get rid of one of the ways that they notify you that they want you to do this, so, for example, on my computer here on this computer I don't have folder backup turned on. So when I go to the desktop, up in the corner not in the corner in the left side of the address bar there's a little start backup button and it animates, by the way. So when you first hit the folder it does a little. You know, does a little thing.

01:07:58
It wants to get your attention, just to be a little more annoying and I don't like it so I don't do it. Yeah, it's a little. It's got like a little up arrow on it. The up arrow animates. It's annoying but, like I said, it's actually not the most annoying of the ways in which it tries to prompt you to do this. I mean, honestly, the most annoying is when they just turn it on, but it's one of the ways. So someone can see in a beta build that they're looking at turning that off or providing a way to turn it off. Actually, that's actually the right way to look at it, because I think you right click on it and say I don't want to see this anymore and yeah, like, yes, that's what I want for all of that stuff. So we'll see. Maybe it's part of something bigger, but for now it looks like it's just the one thing. They didn't find any examples of this anywhere else in the UI. So I don't know, don't get too excited, I guess is my point, because it never ends.

01:08:55
More earnings HP and Dell reported earnings. Without getting into the weeds, uh, very low single digit growth If that in PCs, over the quarter or, an HP's case, the year. Um, these companies, both in Lenovo also and IDC and Gartner and everyone else were like, yeah, this is going to be the year and, yeah, this is not going to be the year. So, uh, they're. Both companies basically said not basically literally said we don't see the big um upgrade bonanza happening until the second half of 2025. Now, so yay, and that, of course, is when windows 10 goes out of support.

01:09:30
Um, there, you know, there are indications that, like these AI PCs, which include copilot plus PCs, have not driven like an upgrade wave per se. I mean, people are buying them like they're doing pretty good and eventually there'll be some big percentage of all the computers, of course, because eventually every PC will be an AI PC. But I don't think Microsoft did a great job of providing a unique software that makes sense to people in the system. So, I mean, it's six months later. We're talking about recall still still not out, you know no.

01:10:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So it's taking a while, unfortunately well, it's not out because of steve gibson. I mean it's not, yeah, no, I mean it could have been out.

01:10:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean honestly screw that guy. If I could just speak honestly I'm a little tired of the steve I'm just teasing.

01:10:17
We love steve gibson, um, we do. No, I mean, I just I went back. I these guys don't always do this on in a timely fashion, but gartner and idc both had their respective reports about pc sales in the most recent quarter and the previous two or three quarters, depending which one you were looking at. We saw mild growth. You know one point something, something percent like or flat growth, whatever. Um this past quarter pc sales actually fell again um isn't this kind of?

01:10:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
shouldn't it be? Is this normal now how it should be from now on? It was it went up because of covid and the core and work at home.

01:10:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so what you're really asking is have we reached this new plateau where this, you know, plus or minus some percent is the PC market? That's what I'm wondering. But we do have these upgrade waves right and the corporate PC market, which, by the way, is the only part of the PC market that did well in any way this year for anybody. Pc, like consumer PCs, have fallen off a cliff, like these sales are. By and large, any gains they have are from the commercial side is going to happen when Windows 10 goes out of support, right, and so you know there'll be a bump of some kind by October of next year.

01:11:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You know when there'll be a bump when 60% tariffs on products from China go into effect.

01:11:36 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I can't wait for that.

01:11:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Then there will be a massive. They'll just buy. Everything that's already in the country will be sold out, yeah. And then the sales will drop off a cliff because there'll be a massive increase in prices.

01:11:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, yeah.

01:11:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But you know what America first, that's all you know, but I'm going to Madeira park to buy my PC. Yep that. But I'm going to Madeira Park to buy my PC.

01:11:57 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yep, that's right. Not a lot of Best Buys up here, just so you know.

01:12:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You guys just drive down to Vancouver. I know Pretty much yeah.

01:12:05 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Normally I would just order by Amazon, but the postal service is on strike. What yeah? Canada Post has been on strike for almost two weeks. That means no mail at all. No mail except for government checks what's the issue problematic

01:12:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
what's, what's your issue?

01:12:21 - Richard Campbell (Host)
uh, wages and work and replacement, the usual things?

01:12:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
is it because I, I can't retire until I'm 41 or something. It's like canada, you know, like mail, it's a good job being a mail carrier.

01:12:32 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's a great job this, this country, it certainly is yeah, it is in the us too well, sort of.

01:12:37 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
My brother used to be a mail carrier and the one thing that they do now they didn't do when he he's no, he's a mail carrier for a long time but they started metering the the routes so they have these little like check-in that you have to go up with a scanner and on a telephone pole and be like you know oh, that's yeah because my brother used to run a side business.

01:12:54
he he was doing great and then they figured out you could do your route in like 17 minutes. Why is this taking all day?

01:13:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh dear, yeah. That's why Amazon now is putting cameras in the trucks to watch you and make sure you don't do things like sing out loud. Yes, they actually prohibit singing out loud in the Amazon delivery.

01:13:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You know, sometimes the Amazon driver will take a picture of the package when he leaves it on the front porch. I got a picture of my package in the air on the way to my front porch.

01:13:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What I don't understand.

01:13:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Which was fine. It was glassware. They don't always take a picture. They sometimes take a picture. No, I know it's completely random, Like when do they have?

01:13:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
to and when, don't they I?

01:13:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
know it doesn't make any sense.

01:13:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I have the garage delivery. That's been kind of fun because I got to put a sign that says packages here, because it's like an Easter egg hunt Where'd they put it? Where'd they put it? It's in here somewhere.

01:13:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I have a UPS package that I guess has arrived that was delivered by the post office to my previous house. Oh no, that's not good, it's fine. That, I guess, has arrived. That was delivered by the post office to my previous house. Oh no, that's not good, it's fine, but it's. But this is what is what? Where is this from? Exactly Like I have to deal with a federal agency, a worldwide shipper of goods, that small business that put this thing in the mail and the idiots who bought my house. The hell is this Like?

01:14:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
it's crazy, but anyway, that's my goodness, this is the world we live in it's, you know, whatever um, go ahead and finish your, uh, this segment, because I do want to do an ad. We need to do an ad here.

01:14:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I wasn't, so I don't know if you got you must have talked about this on the google show this uh report, or I think it's a set of reports now that google is gonna merge or get rid of Chrome OS essentially Right and base future versions of this thing on Android Right.

01:14:41 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This actually kind of freaks me out a little bit, because it's such a good idea.

01:14:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, I like Chrome OS. I will miss Chrome.

01:14:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, there's a simplicity to Chrome OS.

01:14:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's just a browser.

01:14:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, it's lacking everywhere else. Yeah, and I you know android is so complex. I there's a, there's an element of android that I think does make sense. Back in I don't know what june, august, whatever they announced, they were going to bring more of the underpinnings of android into chrome west for things like device driver compatibility, because device driver makers, hardware makers, target android because you know several billion users make sense and chrome os is like three users and they don't do that, they don't do that testing, so like, if we bring that over, we're going to benefit from that.

01:15:24
And it's like yeah, no, that makes sense to me, but now you're going to take this like hairball and and oh, what do you do?

01:15:31 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I'm a little worried. It doesn't have to be a hairball either, right?

01:15:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I agree I agree.

01:15:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, even and to be fair, even chrome os is becoming more and more complex. Yeah, when it first came out, what literally is a browser?

01:15:41 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean, god, you could run linux apps in this thing, you could run android apps in this thing. It, I don't know, I'm worried about it. I, I, I agree that when you look at like the ipad, and you're like, okay, so what is it that makes this thing so good for tablets compared to android? Right, there are probably two things. One is that developers actually give a crap about ios developers follow apple and lockstep in a way. They just do not with google.

01:16:09 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't know what's going on now they no tablet has been really successful except for the ipad, yeah, and and an android tablets.

01:16:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
could I have a Pixel tablet over here, which, by the way, Google is discontinuing?

01:16:19 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, I know, but 16 by 9, like whatever.

01:16:24 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I had an expanding battery on my Google tablet three months after the warranty expired.

01:16:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, okay, that's frustrating.

01:16:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But the other one is this is not exactly true, but the Safari web browser on the iPad is not the desktop browser, but it's more desktop class, if you will. It has more of the desktop type features and I feel like if they just I don't know I guess you would simplify the UI somehow. This is all coming. This is all testing in Android, whatever the beta thing is they have now, where they have a desktop mode with like a taskbar and a start menu looking thing, and but they need a desk. They need like the desktop browser. Right, you need chrome, like the actual chrome that we use on windows or whatever like that needs to work.

01:17:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And then, I don't know, maybe it'll be okay, but I wonder if google had a hint or an inkling that the department of justice was going to make himself known Exactly.

01:17:16 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And they thought well at least we still got Android.

01:17:21 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, we'll always have.

01:17:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Bowie is like the line from you know, and the guy's like, oh, like you know, my favorite line I watched Demolition man last night is after the franchise war. Every restaurant's a Taco.

01:17:32 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Bell yeah, exactly Love that line. It's the best.

01:17:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
After the. Doj lawsuit, lawsuit.

01:17:43 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Every operating system's android, oh boy oh boy, yep, oh boy, all right anyway, I just a little, yeah, just a you know just a thing, thanks a little something something something, something other people make a big outage of microsoft 365 it was a tough day yesterday.

01:17:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Which is one of the things that maybe would cause people to pause before they buy the thin client to do Windows.

01:18:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You know what happened? Everyone was clicking opt-in to AI training thing and it just crashed the whole system.

01:18:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Ay-yi-yi. He's joking kids, steve, he's just joking. I'm just saying we will be back with more of Windows Weekly in just a bit, but I want to tell you about Experts Exchange, our sponsor for this segment of Windows Weekly. You listen to our shows because we're experts and you learn things right. Imagine a 24-hour, always online network of trustworthy, talented tech professionals where you could go to get industry insights and advice from people who are actually using the products in your stacks, instead of paying for expensive enterprise-level tech support. Get answers from the people who know, from a community, a community that you're a part of. That's Experts Exchange. As the tech community for people tired of the AI sellout, experts Exchange is ready to help carry the fight for the future of human intelligence. We need a, we need a. Oh, there you go. There's a logo, there's a symbol. I'll hold that up. Experts Exchange gives you access to professionals in over 400 different fields. I'm talking programming, microsoft Azure, aws, devops.

01:19:20
Duplicate questions are not only encouraged, they're welcome. You don't get the snark you do at other places where they go oh, your questions are a bit asked and we're closing this thread, or worse. You could do it that way, but I don't think you should. Why don't you do it this way? No, the contributors at Experts Exchange are nice. They're tech junkies who love graciously answering all questions. You know why? Because they understand that the real reward for the expertise, the hard-earned knowledge that they have won, is passing along to other people, paying it forward, sharing it, and they're there to do that. It's just that's what community is all about. We help each other. One member said quote I've never had a chat GPT stop and ask me a question before, but that happens on EE all the time. It's an exchange of information from humans. They're proudly committed to fostering a community where human collaboration is fundamental and the expert directory is full of experts who will help you find what you need. Many of them listen to our shows, by the way, like Rodney Barnhart, who's a security now and a twit listener he's a VMware v expert. Or the well-known ethical hacker, edward von Billion. He is a Microsoft MVP as well. So imagine, you know he's an ethical hacker and Microsoft MVP. This guy's like a font of wisdom, plus Cisco design professionals, executive IT directors and more.

01:20:49
Here's another point that's, I think, pretty important. Other platforms betray their contributors. Everybody does it now X does it, linkedin does it, reddit does it by selling the content you put on those sites to train AI models. At Experts Exchange, your privacy is not for sale. They stand against the betrayal of contributors worldwide. They have never and will never sell your data, your content, even your likeness. They block and strictly prohibit AI companies from scraping content from their site to train their LLMs and, by the way, that's a full-time job blocking those guys because they're always trying to sneak in, but they stop them and the moderators strictly forbid the direct use of LLM content in the threads, because the whole point of this is you're talking to humans. It's an exchange between human beings helping each other and, frankly, if you're an expert, you deserve a place where you can confidently share your knowledge without worrying about some company coming along and stealing it to increase shareholder value. This is your safe haven from AI, something I think a lot of you would like.

01:21:58
Join Experts Exchange today. You get 90 days free. You don't even need to give them a credit card. They know you're going to love it, so they're offering it three months for free, just to give you a taste. Visit e-ecom slash twit. I had a great conversation with these guys. I used to use the Experts Exchange all the time when the Tech Guy Show was on to get answers to questions. I had a great conversation with these guys. I used to use the experts exchange all the time when the tech guy show was on to get answers to questions. I don't know, and I was really thrilled when they called and they're back. It's wonderful. Thank you, experts exchange for supporting windows. Weekly e-ecom slash twit. All right, paul Theriot, richard Campbell On, we go with Microsoft 365-er.

01:22:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, there's not much to say here because no one can access the service, but I guess how long is it down? It's up and running now. Yeah, no, it's fine.

01:22:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The cloud goes down from time to time. I know that that's one of the reasons people say I'm not going to work in the cloud, but we're just kind of used to it. You go get a cup of coffee.

01:23:02 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, and their outages are thus often than your own.

01:23:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Ah, that's an interesting point.

01:23:12 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You're more likely to be out than they are. Also their outages. They'll fix it.

01:23:15 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You can just I guess.

01:23:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm just going to it. You know you could just uh, I guess I'm just gonna you know. Yeah, the best thing about the about the cloud.

01:23:20 - Richard Campbell (Host)
The cloud is. It's somebody else's fault, somebody else's problem too yeah, exactly, yeah yep, um yeah.

01:23:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So uh, you know, according to their sla, I think you'll be getting a refund, so don't worry about it. Um yeah, so what do you think? What was the? I went and looked at the admin center and, my god, is there a lot of information yeah, it was not an elegant outage.

01:23:46 - Richard Campbell (Host)
There's been no explanation for what it actually was, uh, much less how they actually fixed it. It's just that it's back up now. They dumped a lot of they. They were really thrashing. It seemed like on this one where they just kept putting out postings but they but most of them were yeah, we're still down yeah, so as of right now in this glaringly white screen I'm looking at, um, everything is up and running.

01:24:12 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's what I see.

01:24:13 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So it took the better it was over 24 hours, I would say before it got to that state again and it sounded like the admin tools came up last. So yeah, yeah.

01:24:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I got in yesterday morning. This is on the commercial side. So my understanding is this impacted both consumer and commercial actually, but it's more serious on the commercial side because of all the services that are impacted and you know they pay for those things like there. You know there's a lot of it, um, but yeah, there were certain parts of it came back faster than others, I think you know I'll look web access whatever they call that today. I think is actually I'll look web access, I don't know. Uh, it was one of the last ones to be reliably up for everybody, but yeah, it took a, took took a long time, I don't, do you think? Do we? Do they typically provide like a?

01:25:02 - Richard Campbell (Host)
post-mortem kind of a thing. I mean, they used to, but you know it's just like the way the security documentation used to be, like the reference material. This is the right way to do it. A few years ago it just sort of faded off and it seems like, as of late, outage analysis and summary is just not good anymore. I'm not sure why. Yeah, I don't either okay.

01:25:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, your nightmare is over and it's time for thanksgiving, so you can stop working again, so everything's fine.

01:25:33 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, actually thanksgiving's probably a good time somebody's thanksgiving got screwed up, that's to be clear. Like they did not get on an airplane yesterday, like they were planning or the day before, right, they've been. Yep, now they're. Now they're trying to get to wherever they're trying to go yeah, it was probably.

01:25:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You know all the changes they had to make so they could train their ai. I mean, I it's not helping, I know it's hard. It's hard being this cynical. I'm sorry um or sarcastic.

01:26:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's a way of life, it comes all too easily.

01:26:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, it's a very natural uh, and then this is just a grab bag of stuff. I didn't? We already talked about the microsoft training in fact, I just mentioned it. Um of ai not happening, etc. Um, amazon, uh, I think, starting late last year and then culminating early this year, invested four billion in anthropic, the ai startup, and has now invested another four million. So that's, claude, is their claim to fame cloud.

01:26:30
It's good yeah which, by the way, is looking increasingly pretty good right got a great reputation without yeah anthropic just announced like a, a new standardized way that we'll see if anyone adopts it for uh integrating ai with uh data, and they released it as open source and you know we'll see like rap, like retrieval x no it's it has a. It has one of those stupid names like mpo, or you know like it's a acronym, too many acronyms.

01:26:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I pay for Copilot Claude, openai, perplexity, ai, wow.

01:27:06 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, it's partly like my job and you just set them off talking to each other. Is that it? Yeah, I keep busy.

01:27:12 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
What's interesting?

01:27:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
is. They're all good in different ways and, like you know, I'll use Claude to do that. I'd use OpenAI to do that, that kind of thing.

01:27:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So OpenAI and Anthropic are both supposed to be particularly good for programming type topics.

01:27:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I use ChatGPT for coding.

01:27:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so GitHub Copilot is going to be, or has already been, opened up so that it can support third-party AIs, including Anthropic and OpenAI.

01:27:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't pay for Copilot on GitHub. I have a paid account, but I don't, I didn't do this.

01:27:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I set out to do this yesterday. I got distracted, but I want to do one of those side-by-side things, so I'm going to try Anthropic first and have Visual Studio open.

01:28:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And then I guess, guess what do you do it's like copy and paste code and be like could you make this more efficient or you just ask it to do stuff. This is, for me, what at first I did, as I made a custom gpt, that I put all the lisp books in, and then it was very good. I said, don't give me an answer, that's not in one of these books. So it was very reliable, it's very good. But then it's funny because, as the this was a year ago, as the llms got better, pretty soon I was able to ask the same questions of an unmodified llm and they would get the same. It would be this yeah, so they're starting. Yeah, they're all very good at coding in other words, and I always thought that google's strength was going to be.

01:28:31 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They would like you know that in the early days of this, by what you mean, like seven months ago, um, they were saying things like you know, ai is really bad at math.

01:28:39
Like you can't, you could one plus one equals q or whatever, yeah, or it's really bad. It's like, obviously, is that javascript? I think it's javascript, javascript. Well, it's fine if it's integer math, um, but it's uh, you know, let's, let's go, let's be accurate here, um, but they, I always felt like Google was going to be the one that would be able to meld, like up-to-date search results and whatever level of accuracy with.

01:29:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah.

01:29:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And it I. So far that's not played out, so we'll see where that goes. But but actually, okay, actually this ties into the next one. That was was coincidental sort of. But Brave Search is one of the 1,100 third-party search services we have. They're free of big tech, it's not based on Bing to some degree or whatever else, so they've got that going for them. Of course, that also means that they're limited in some ways. I mean, they don't have that huge data store backend to kind of work on. But they also have Leo, which is their, not leo laporte, but leo their. I know, ai, I'm very annoyed. Yep, sorry, um, talk to your parents nothing I can do.

01:29:45
I know there's nothing I can do about that one yeah and um, they are like google and probably bing I don't look at bing, I'm normal but uh, but, like google, have been putting AI answers at the top of search results for a while. So now they're doing a like a uh, and that's called answer with AI. So they have a new chat mode for search where if you ask it an explicit question what is the capital of Alaska or whatever Um, and it gives you an answer with AI. You can. There's a little chat box under there and you can ask follow-up questions. It'll keep the context, um, and because it's brave, it's, you know, private and yada, yada, yeah, it's good, um, I, I wrote this in the article, but, uh, I asked brave search, like how many star wars movies are there?

01:30:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
and it said there were 12 canonical star wars movies.

01:30:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So I'm like, no, that's not true, there are 11, right. I'm like, what does that mean? There's like the nine movies, right, and then the two standalone movies solo, right, uh, uh, what's called?

01:30:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
uh, I can't remember, it doesn't matter um, one which, by the way, points out humans are no better than ai at this. Well, why do you expect the ai to be right? And you couldn't remember rogue one?

01:30:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean that's I couldn't remember the name of, but I know they're 11, except that I googled it. And when you go to wikipedia, wikipedia says there are 12, that's I couldn't remember the name of, but I know they're 11, except that I Googled it. And when you go to Wikipedia, wikipedia says there are 12, too.

01:31:00
That's why the 12th one is Well, but the 12th one is not the same one, right? So in Brave Search and their AI, whatever they're using that said that the 12th movie was a man, was Mandalorian or something, something, and it was like that's a tv show. But on wikipedia, apparently they combined some of the episodes of the animated star wars uh tv series which was so forgetting clone wars, yes and released it theatrically. Limit on a limited basis, and to them that qualifies as a movie and I'm like, yep, I'm gonna go with 11.

01:31:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I still think it's 11 let me, let me ask yeah, perplexity pro yeah by the way, when I started typing how many star wars they offered, how many star wars movies are they? How many are many in order? How many they're in total, including spinoffs? They know this is probably not a great test question, right? Because we'll see what they say though yeah, let's see we're doing them in order there's the nine episodic movies and then the two standalones there are currently 12 canonical star wars and solo a star wars story yeah, so no, I didn't mention solo and they kept saying clone wars.

01:32:10
They're also adding the core wars, and I'm like yeah, like that's no, that doesn't count well, does it? It's worth noting, by the way, perplexity says it's worth noting. While this is the chronological order of events of the star wars universe, it differs from the release order. Oh good, it's totally for completion there are also films that are no longer considered canon the caravan of courage and ewok. Adventure and ewoks. The battle for ed door all right.

01:32:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So here's the thing they made Star Wars as a movie, they released in the theater and then at one point it was on HBO and then eventually was on TV. That doesn't mean it's a TV show, how about?

01:32:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
the.

01:32:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Mandalorian and Grogu. That's coming later, so that's coming, yeah. Yeah, I'm saying, as of today, this the fact that they took episodes of a TV show and put it on the big screen, no it doesn't count.

01:32:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, I don't think that counts, but in this case they got 12 because they include Clone Wars.

01:33:02 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's what I'm saying. That one.

01:33:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't think it counts.

01:33:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's baloney.

01:33:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But that's not the Mandalorian, no, no, it's assembling a bunch of animated cartoons and calling it a movie. Animated TV cartoons Well well, so much for ai. Obviously ai is an idiot.

01:33:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think that's what I disapprove. Thank you, so that was my point dumb.

01:33:24 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This is all a waste of time.

01:33:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Ai, you're so dumb.

01:33:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
If they could just train it on our data. This thing would make sense if they would just ask paul. Yes, they would know. Hold on, I'm getting a phone call.

01:33:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's ai yeah, what do you mean? 11? The answer is 11 god damn it do not screw with me with star wars I just think it's ironic that we expect ai to be 100 accurate when we, as humans, are we expect all technology to be 100 or accurate.

01:33:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I should say that's the problem. Like it's not though. Yeah, I know, I mean back to when Intel couldn't do floating point math. I will never forget that as long as I live, because my friend spent a big money on a Pentium and he was so excited to get it, which I think at the time was like 60 megahertz if I'm not mistaken, or 50,.

01:34:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So stupid number.

01:34:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And yeah, he had to send it back 0.24. You had to give him the credit card number and send it back. Yeah, two plus two equals q.

01:34:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, yep, no, that's not the answer and yeah, we're in trouble well, at least, at least, we've now added an interface to these failures that apologizes to you when it doesn't. Yes, yeah, that's that was the.

01:34:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I was, um, I was sitting at that, oh, I forgot to look at the desktop computer and, uh, doing whatever I was doing, and I was shutting something down and and it didn't. It wasn't working right and I I cursed at the computer and then my iphone's over there and and siri said something like well, that's a good question, paul, but and I'm like, shut up you. It's like the, you know like the. It's like like you have to remind me of how stupid you are, like every time.

01:35:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Basically. By the way, I just want to say and Lisa's sitting right, I'm not saying anything out of school but when Lisa doesn't want Siri to continue, she doesn't just say thank you, goodbye, cancel, no, no, she swears, she's swe.

01:35:14 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, she swears, she just says shut the beep up and I know why, and it works.

01:35:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Aside from the irritating, by the way, it does work.

01:35:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm so surprised it works but she also gets like well, you don't have to be a jerk about it.

01:35:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Listen, she's flipping me off.

01:35:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I feel like I do have to be a jerk about it, because you're that stupid, like literally. You're not only not adding value, you're just getting in the way. That's my point. But maybe there's a training aspect to this.

01:35:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's okay to swear at machines. They have no feelings and there are parents out there who teach their kids.

01:35:44 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Some guy at Apple's looking at the logs and he's like I got to say the number one interaction with Siri is shut up.

01:35:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And it's all caps Maybe we should fix this. There are parents who try to teach your kids to be polite to siri and thank you and please and stuff. No, you're teaching them the wrong thing. That's a machine. Don't make them think it's a human. They need to learn the distinction right now because they're going to grow up in a world where the distinction becomes, I know, difficult well, every time that stupid thing pipes up on my iphone, I'm reminded of how stupid it is.

01:36:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Like, come on, come on, this is waiting for it to be. Like, actually, paul, there were 12 star wars movies and, oh, believe me, we lost the chat room.

01:36:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They are now.

01:36:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's the debate going on right now oh yeah, of course, this is, this is, this is honestly how our minds work. This is, uh, this is a this is a psychological. They should train ai on this. Yeah, this is what we care about.

01:36:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, yeah, no, you, yeah, of course, yeah so you said paul, you said leo is wrong on leo is wrong dot com.

01:36:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, wrong again. Monkey boy was my favorite early response to me on uh. What do you call it? Uh, news groups or whatever you use wrong again, monkey boy, it was like. My first online interaction was like yeah, not after a good start here um baby's first flame war.

01:37:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Always have, always okay, uh oh that's your man.

01:37:11 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I trust that was a windows weekly title back in 2010 wrong again, monkey oh yeah, no, was it really.

01:37:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh yeah, no, it makes it makes sense which windows, weekly, what episode oh no, it doesn't uh 175 oh, we got there early early.

01:37:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, well, it was. It was a. It was a formative experience for me. You know, it really kind of set the stage for like a lifetime of online activities. I love it. It really kind of set the stage for like a lifetime of online activities. I love it. It's so fun. Yeah, because it's not enough to argue with my wife. I get to argue with the planet, argue with software too. Very nice.

01:37:45 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, enough software. When my voice rec device for the house, which is plugged in through OpenAI, misbehaves, I just unplug it. Yeah, I like it, and you know what?

01:37:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It misbehaves, I just unplug it. Yeah, you know what it feels good, which, by the way, is what they do to c3po and star wars.

01:38:02 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Beautiful what I'm saying. Just unplug this thing. You know, don't tell me the odds you know you have no electricity.

01:38:06 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I really like that's what you should say to us, don't tell me the odds. And then it's like what?

01:38:09 - Richard Campbell (Host)
what are you doing?

01:38:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't know what you're talking about.

01:38:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
If you don't understand that reference, you're not sentient just get out of here, we're all fine um, while we were talking, uh, google has asked an appeals court to appeal, to appeal to throw out the order in epic v google that requires it to open up oh really, in android. Yep, so we'll see how that goes. Um, google and the doj both made their final arguments in Google's ad monopoly case. By the way, this is another source of big misunderstanding in our world. So when Google was found guilty of antitrust violations with search and we started discussing, well, what are they going to do, like, what could they do to fix this problem, you know there was a lot of ideas and then finally, the DOJ came out and said, all right, here are our ideas. One of them was getting rid of. You know, make them get rid of Chrome, right, and everyone's, like you know, losing their minds. Let's make them really rein in their activities on Android, and if that doesn't work, we'll take away Android too. You know, everyone's freaking out, right, and you get, these people are like, oh, this is going to destroy the business. You know I'm like, well, maybe let's look at their revenues.

01:39:23
And actually, as it turns out, you know, if you figure like, they're still going to own their ad business, no one has ever talked about taking away their ad business, right, right, well, I mean let's. They're going to compete now in a more open market, so they're not going to have 100% of it anymore. But what if they had like 50%? Right, this is still a company that makes tens of billions of dollars. They're going to be fine, right? But now, now there's this ad monopoly case. It's like, see, now they're going to take away their ad business and no, they're not.

01:39:55
So if you look at the amount of money that Google makes from ads in a quarter, which is between 60 and 70 percent of all the revenues there are many sources of that YouTube, google search, et cetera, et cetera the thing that they're in court for is the smallest part of it. It's a single digit billions per quarter and it's related to double click right in the ad auction business that they have. There's like three components to it. Ad auction business that they have there's like three components to it. So if Google loses everything here and nothing else changes, their revenues will be reduced by I don't know 10% or 12% or something. I mean, this is not a core part of Google. Even though you hear Google ads, you're like, oh, they're screwed. Not really, you know. So apparently the court they're in, or the judge that is seeing this case, is known for her quickness. I think they call her the rocket.

01:40:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Rocket, rocket, yeah, which?

01:40:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
is beautiful. I love that. I need a nickname like that, except mine would be something horrible and profane. But, anyway, it's yeah, so she's going to like roll on this by the end of the year, apparently, and uh, we'll apparently, you know, have hearings for remedies very early next year, and don't worry, jack smith will dismiss all charges.

01:41:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Uh, before he leaves, I don't think that's how government works, but we'll see um we'll see um, I just I feel like, of course, what's really unknown is what the next administration is going to do about google, because half of it hates google. Yeah, half of it loves google well, I mean the clear.

01:41:24 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so the big case, the biggest case is the search case. That one was launched by the trump administration, doj so.

01:41:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But trump has also recently said I love google because china's scared of it.

01:41:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh, so yeah, it's almost like there's no common sense there or something. So I don't know. It's hard to say you're right.

01:41:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think that's the easiest way to say yeah, we don't know yeah, um, and if I you know, and, of course, sunar pichai, along with all the ceos, is very actively, you know, courting, oh my god, yes, and, and, really, and, and, and I think what will prevail, it's the same thing that prevailed for Apple when they proposed tariffs. Is it ass-kissing?

01:42:01 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, Well, it's a form.

01:42:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's really saying hey, you're hurting American companies, we're an American company, we're something America should be proud of. You really focus on. This is the source of American innovation Apple. This was in 2017, when they they announced tariffs in china of 20 and apple persuaded the president to uh literally put an exemption for smartphones by saying hey, if you do that, you're just helping samsung and and I think that's what will happen is they all will understand by the way, you'd also be helping Qualcomm, but fair enough.

01:42:37
I mean I you know well yeah, but I think that they really just need to hit hammer hard on American innovation, American companies. This is the shining light the rest of the world wishes they had Google and Microsoft and Apple.

01:42:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And let me ask you a question.

01:42:57 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Does the rest of the world?

01:42:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
wish they had Intel no you can have Intel, Please.

01:43:00 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's like.

01:43:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm doing pretty good. We'll trade with Taiwan for TSMC.

01:43:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I got this weird bump on my hip I don't get. Could you look at it? I think there's a hair growing out of it. I don't. It's weird.

01:43:08
Intel did get a chunk of change, yeah, so this is another example of this is a minor example of misinformation. A day or two before this happened, there was a Bloomberg report that said that their financing under chips would be reduced because they weren't hitting milestones, and that's not what happened at all. Like, their potential payout in the form of loans and grants was $8.5 billion, but in September, intel was awarded $3 billion in grants and funding for a military related chips program. That's separate from this. So because of that and because of congressional oversight of this, they actually had to reduce the amount that Intel would get through chips from 8.5 to 7.6 billion. It had nothing to do with Intel hitting or not hitting milestones.

01:44:00
So I mean honestly, in many ways this is a basic case scenario. They were going to get 8.5. Now they got 11, point whatever, 11, I guess 11, 11.6 billion. So they're doing okay from the government and so Intel is going to continue there. They pledged basically what amounts to 100 billion dollars in investment in us based uh chip making facilities in ohio, arizona, new mexico and I want to say one other place, maybe that's it. Um, the ohio stuff is new, the new mexico and arizona stuff is refurbishing and upgrading and and whatever existing uh facilities.

01:44:34 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I wonder why those states have they got some tax incentive to the state as well?

01:44:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They absolutely did, so their tax hit was reduced by like 25%, I think, at least in Ohio. I don't remember the exact numbers, but yeah.

01:44:45 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Because you would have thought they would have stayed in Oregon. They've got all kinds of facilities in Oregon, but I imagine oh that is the other one.

01:44:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm sorry, the other one is Oregon. Yep, sorry, I knew that I thought there was another one. It's Oregon, yeah, so yeah, I mean so good. And then I don't know if we ever talked about this, but TSMC also got like I think it was $3 billion through the CHIPS program back in September for a US-based fabricator, and was that a?

01:45:05 - Richard Campbell (Host)
facility in Texas that we're working on.

01:45:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think it is yeah, yeah.

01:45:09 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, hey, you know, we've come to appreciate that CHIPS are a strategic asset as well, and a certain number of them should be produced domestically. And this is happening bit by bit and it just doesn't happen that quickly. Was that a play?

01:45:23 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
on words. Richard, I'm a funny guy. Have you met me?

01:45:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
all right, let me, uh, let me break here and we will get to the xbox segment it's all gonna be good news, just a moment You're watching yeah. I see a little Dagwood Bumstead, a little punctuation cloud here, Some of.

01:45:53
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01:49:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, moving on um not to throw it back in your face or anything.

01:49:39
No, no, it's good I, um, I flight simulator 2024 is interesting to me because of this kind of hybrid design where a bunch of it is streaming from the cloud and it it's. You know they're not doing like the world update download thing anymore, like you're going to get high-res models from the cloud, allegedly. Um, I will say, when reports started uh circulating last week that it wasn't going so well, like people were waiting forever to get into the game online, et cetera, et cetera, I decided to install it on that computer. That's a laptop that runs, um, you know the uh AMD Zen five chip that runs, you know, like call of duty, wonderfully, et cetera, et cetera.

01:50:20
Uh, it ran like crap. Honestly, it was pretty bad. Um, I had to like release, tune down the models and and it didn't look good. So, yeah, there are issues um microsoft or xbox or I guess flight simulator inc or whatever this company is, um has acknowledges, obviously, and they're working to fix the issues, so they've released a big update, etc. Etc. Uh, it's still better than windows. I don't know, you know, I guess you look at it in perspective. I, it's not like it's forced installing like airports on you or anything. I don't know. It could be worse, I guess.

01:50:54 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I like the old version where they had that bug in Melbourne that made like a thousand story building just sort of sticking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:51:01 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Right, which was probably the inspiration for a scene in Star Wars. It was fun, yeah Well.

01:51:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh well.

01:51:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So that's happening. I don't know this one, I have to say. Microsoft integrating a miniature version of the Edge web have a web browser open somewhere in a phone or whatever it is next to the game, or maybe on the computer itself, where they switch right to figure out how to get forward in the game, or whatever it is. Yeah, read the cheats, the cheat website. You know that kind of thing. So they're building a mini version of the web browser edge into the game bar, which is part of Windows 11. Web browser edge into the game bar, which is part of Windows 11. When you hit the Xbox button on the controller.

01:51:55 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Windows Key plus G brings that thing up. I use this to get more edge utilization right?

01:51:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, of course. Yeah, it will. This will be the version of edge that opens when you click on a story in widgets. Now, no, I don't know, but I use the game bar a lot now because I'm measuring the frame rate of various games and you can pin that thing to stay open. It's actually pretty useful for that purpose. But yeah, I mean this is. I read that I'm like, yeah, no, this actually makes sense to me. So, yeah, we'll see.

01:52:23 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, just does it have to be Edge or could it be.

01:52:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Of course it has to be Edge.

01:52:29 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I mean what?

01:52:29 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
does anyone else use? Everyone uses Edge.

01:52:31 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's such a weird question to ask Not even worth asking.

01:52:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Actually I wonder if Edge is going to become more If Google is forced to sell Chrome.

01:52:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, I wonder yeah, no, no.

01:52:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The DOJ wants them to sell Chrome. Well, it's talking about, yes, splitting. Chrome off Because it's such a revenue center right, but I wonder if at some point Edge might become kind of the best Chromium browser. I think that's brave.

01:53:00 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There are people out there who would tell you that right now it already is, and those people I'm telling you have problems.

01:53:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They work in Redmond.

01:53:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
What is the best?

01:53:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
best chromium browser.

01:53:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean chrome, probably right I would say brave, honestly stripped down so much and they got rid of a bunch of the junk and without replacing it with their own junk.

01:53:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Right there is a de-goo, de-googled chrome, yeah, um, but I don't know how good that is I don't I don't know. That's really what brave is, yeah I'm not so dark. I'm you too. It's your arc is is very good I know.

01:53:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So the thing is I actually do have two Google accounts and Google account integration is pretty good. I don't mind that stuff. It's the tracking privacy something, something, stuff that I'm not a big fan of.

01:53:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I kind of have given up to be honest.

01:53:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think most of us have. You want that information? Fine, I sometimes feel like I just say this to say it, but I, I don't know. I try to avoid chrome if I can, but I don't know. We uh kind of, I kind of have to use chrome for restream, which is what we use uh for this show oh, by the way, I'm using it right now for restream, because when I first, I couldn't get it to work with edge. Yeah so, and it had worked before I don't know what changed.

01:54:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Honestly, it's kind of the thing is, if you need full compatibility, you just have a copy of Chrome lying around because only Chrome is fully Chrome.

01:54:24 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I still have four or five browsers installed on every.

01:54:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
PC. I mean, you know, like one does I keep thinking about Brave, I keep trying Brave. If you really like it, I should give it a shot I like.

01:54:33 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, what I mean by I like it is it never gets in the way, there's never like a weird problem with it and there's never extraneous nonsense I can't get rid of.

01:54:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And they were smart because they built in uBlock. They effectively uBlock origin into the engines.

01:54:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So manifest v2, v3, mox next doesn't I'm not saying they're the only browser, but I would say they're kind of the only mainstream browser if you include everything down through, like vilvaldi opera, that actually passes all of the anti-tracking site tests without installing anything.

01:55:02
Yeah, brave like it actually just works like brave uh, not brave vilvaldi opera firefox too curiously. Uh, you have to install extensions for those things to get up to that level, which is fine, it's not a big deal. But, like Edge, brave actually does that by default and I have to say I kind of respect that.

01:55:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The only reason that I've stuck on Arc. This is Arc is. A, because there's no widgets, no menu bar, nothing. So it's very clean. No Chrome, that's the term, and I love this little pop-up thing it does, where this is a little pop-up on top of yep, I know, and I wish, and I love that, and then, of course, the sidebar is really effective for me. So yeah, no, you're right, it's good you know, and the browser company says well, you know, arc didn't really take off, so we're going to do something else.

01:55:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But I hope they keep it around a little bit because I it seems like they're going to, but I but arc very decidedly turned into this power user tool that some percentage, whatever it was, of people saw that and were like yes right but most people were like oh, it's so weird.

01:56:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, you were right. When I first tried it, I said, oh, that's too much to learn yeah, it's too much all new.

01:56:11 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't and then you got in.

01:56:13 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But then you learn it, you're like it's actually and I think they made some good concessions like on every browser except for that one, uh, control t or command t is new tab and they turn that into kind of the central ui for commands and things and it's it's like yeah, no, that's smart like you're, people know that and they use it, and now you get to see their exactly kind of new ui I think.

01:56:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But the minute you block origin doesn't work on it, I'm out of here. I need that yeah, yeah, so I might go to brave, yep, right, I do use firefox. Uh, I, that was my go-to for 10 years.

01:57:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's different for everybody. One of the things I have to do for work is get an image. Dev tools in Edge and Chrome and Brave and probably Arc, but I don't remember are all the same or enough the same, that it's basically the same process, right? And then in Firefox it's completely different and I actually can't figure it out and I'm like I can't. It makes me like so it's like a weird blocker. It's a very specific blocker, but I like Firefox, I like the whole vibe of it, obviously, but I, in using it, I'm like oof, like I kinda it's a problem. You know, it's like a day-to-day problem. So I don't know, I know that that's not the reason, but it's like one of the things I can think of. I'm sorry, this it's okay. Yeah, so there's a browser thing on Xbox. Let's talk about a browser in it. Yep, so let's see. So Microsoft used to have this thing called Mixer and I feel like on the list of trigger terms for.

01:58:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Microsoft users Mixer or Mix.

01:58:07 - Richard Campbell (Host)
No, there was Mix. That was a conference, but Mixer was their Twitch competitor.

01:58:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh, okay. Okay, I mean, it would have been if it competed anyway.

01:58:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Was it mixer or mix? No, there was mix. That was a conference. But mixer.

01:58:11 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Mixer was the their twitch competitor.

01:58:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh, okay, okay I mean, it would have been if it competed anyway.

01:58:15 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah they hired ninja to it. But then you know, I think 10 million on bringing a 27 year old over with purple hair, yep, I know, I know.

01:58:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So now they don't have that and they're integrating with third parties Discord's Twitch is one, youtube is one and Discord is one, and so now they've added the ability to make direct voice calls with your friends on Xbox through Discord. I guess they're friends on Discord, like they would be. You know the people you have in Discord. So it's integrated into the Xbox UI asi, as it is, by the way, on the playstation 5 apparently, which I don't own, but I guess that's a thing. So that was kind of interesting. Um, by the way, related to that, and apropos of nothing, sony announced today that playstation 2 which I think everyone knows is not the new version of the console right Was first released in, I think, the year 2000, and they stopped manufacturing it like 12 years later-ish has sold 160 million units. Wow, right Now.

01:59:25
Why would you say that Like? Why even? Why mention that now? Like? What's the point? Why would you say that Like? Why even? Why mention that now? Like? What's the point? The point is that Nintendo is about to outsell its best-selling video game hardware, which is the DS, with the switch, which has sold 146 million units, and it has to get to 154, which, based on their you know, uh, predictions will happen by the end of March, which is the end of the fiscal year. So Sony was like that's cute, we sold 160. Like I think they literally just did it as like a middle finger to Nintendo. Now, that said, I I still think the switch is going to come out on top because it will be around, you know, for past. It's not like nobody's buying a PlayStation 2 now.

02:00:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, and they don't like Nintendo doesn't have something to sell, yet something new. So you know for past, it's not like they're not nobody's buying a playstation 2.

02:00:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
now, well, and they don't, like, nintendo doesn't have something to sell, yet something new, so they'll keep selling this thing throughout the year, even if it sells in single digit millions in coming quarters. Um, they'll get there. I don't think that was in the notes, right, but it was a kind of an interesting thing that just kind of happened today, um, there's an Xbox feature called the Avatar Editor, which is even more ridiculous than you think it is. Yeah, and I say that because I know none of you are using it, because they're getting rid of it because no one uses it. So this is a console only feature. These are like Nintendo. We just mentioned the Switch.

02:00:46
So when the Nintendo Wii was a thing, they came up with these little Mii characters which were supposed to represent you in this ecosystem, m-i-i, m-i-i, right. So Microsoft came out with avatars for Xbox that were tied partially to, at first to Kinect, which were likewise these kind of weeble-looking kind of cartoon characters, kind of weeble looking kind of cartoon characters. And then, uh, 10 seconds later, they stopped selling connect and they still continue forward with avatars, but they're a little little more, I don't know, modern looking I guess, but, um, yeah, no one's doing that.

02:01:20
So, anyway, that's going away. Uh, so in January. And then, uh, I think we talked last week or the week before Microsoft is apparently looking at Xbox portable gaming hardware and Phil Spencer said something about this in an interview. He's like, look, it's years away, blah, blah, blah, but we're looking at it. And then today or yesterday there was a report from Bloomberg that actually Sony's looking at this too, and of course, sony has a history of this. They had the PSP and then the Vita, and the Vita was the one that fixed the problem. They had the two thumbsticks, which enabled really elegant third-party shooter support like you would have on a console. And then, of course, they killed it, because you know we can't have anything nice. But apparently, I mean, they got it right. Like they finally got it right, cause originally it only had the one side and it was like this is not quite it, but they did the two thumbsticks and they got it right. So, um, apparently they're looking at a way to bring PS5 games to a portable device somewhere. It's still years away, but it is something they're looking at.

02:02:19
And this is kind of the thing I've been talking about with Xbox. Like I think there should be a way to play. Like I would have said, like when series X and S came out, like make this thing in Xbox one X level of whatever hardware performance and allow it to play the games to that level. But on the go to me made a lot of sense, so we'll see what happens. But, um, yeah, I guess I don't know like in the game of console or the, the market for video game consoles. Um, I guess they're looking at these pcs like the uh steam deck and whatever else that like they sell well enough. It's like well, this is pretty good for us. Like if we had something that sold as well, this might be pretty good. So I think it makes sense. I would like to see something like this. But he says having the last time I played a video game on a plane was probably 1997 or something. I don't know. It was a long time ago.

02:03:10 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't yeah Strictly PC right, I don't want to play on a handheld. I can barely see the damn thing.

02:03:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I guess yes, this is the big problem.

02:03:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, oh, it's funny, I'm so spoiled with a 55 inch display.

02:03:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I haven't written this up yet. A 31.5 inch all-in-one pc out there that I put call of duty on spectacular, um the the captioning is approximately this big it's like really big on the screen, like it's huge, super crisp. Um, and I mentioned maybe this is a an ess computer. It's not so I. I just I did check on that last ad break. Um it's actually not ess, even though it has the built-in webcam etc.

02:03:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So it's a it's a high standard it's a high standard.

02:03:55 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, I mean, that's the way to put it, but that means that I don't. There must be, or will be, ess compatible desktop hardware. I've never seen it, so that's not interesting. Yeah, I mean. Well, I mean, I mostly review laptops, but I it's come slowly to laptops. I feel like that's the mass market.

02:04:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're going to go there first, but I think it's laptops always have a camera built in often have a finger built in. They have affordances that ESS would like or maybe even requires Yep.

02:04:35 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Desktops don't always have a camera, no, but that's why I thought maybe the all-in-one, and I said I said you know, I, I, I can't honestly remember the last time I saw a non ess pc, but now I can't. It was like 11 seconds ago, but uh, but as far as like a laptop, I mean like it's, I can't remember, it's been a long time but surely microsoft doesn't intend it for laptops only?

02:04:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
they surely intend for desktops too? Yep, I would think so. You'd hope, one would hope. All right, that's the Xbox segment. I hope you enjoyed it. You won't get another one for a week, so enjoy.

02:05:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Sorry, I might have prestiged by. Then you can say how are you doing?

02:05:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I've had so many PCs to test, I've been forced to play. There's only one way to test them.

02:05:12 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There is only one way to set. Well, there's many ways, but I'm using one way and it's uh, yeah, it's going pretty good.

02:05:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You know what I find? Um, whenever the outside world becomes difficult, I retreat. I retreat sometimes into my video game, and valheim is a good one, because it's really my own little world. I'm just a viking, I'm building a house, I'm growing crops, I'm fighting off bad guys, and it's just me and I, and it's quiet, it's peaceful, it's satisfying. If I want, I could just sit in my throne and enjoy this, smell the roses and I find I do that more now like it's become a kind of a refuge.

02:05:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So I'm wondering if call of duty is not exactly peaceful kingdom, but I'm wondering if that's a reference on what makes you happy, like yeah, if, like headshots, or what make you happy, call of duty is ideal.

02:06:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's very calming you know what do you call it duty call of duty has that kind of addictive element by the way, which when I'm talking throne, I'm talking an actual throne, like a there are no toilets in valheim.

02:06:21 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Okay, it's another thing I like about it lack of toilets, the lack of gastrointestinal problems, yeah you eat a lot.

02:06:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's a lot of eating, oh yeah, and I mean I make big feasts now it's wonderful, but uh yeah, I was sure he was gonna say feasts.

02:06:37 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's what he was gonna say feasts are I?

02:06:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
just we're gonna take a break, and then the back of the book is coming up tip app and brown liquor pick. Which is this a brown liquor?

02:06:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
this sounds like a is okay, it looks like a, uh, like a vino verde or something.

02:06:54 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It looks like just a random set of characters thrown yeah I've never seen 17 consonants in a row in a name we will find out what is what is.

02:07:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The game is afoot, or at least the whiskey is in just a bit as the back of the book uh approaches. I want to take this moment, though, to invite you to join our club. We talk about club twit a lot because we love our club twitters. Uh, in this case, club twit makes it possible for us to do not only this show but paul thorat's hands on windows. We do make the audio of that available to the public, as we do with hands-on macintosh and other shows, but, but the video is available only to the club. It's really a club because there's no advertising. It's a club supported show.

02:07:42
I I personally, from day one of twit 20 years ago wanted to do a listener supported network. Turns out we couldn't grow at the rate rate we ended up wanting to grow and growing at with a number of shows we're doing purely by listener support. So we started doing advertising and that's been fine, but I would really still. I still think the ideal would be listener supported. And the interesting thing is it doesn't mean 100%, it doesn't mean we'd have to have a paywall. We don't.

02:08:12
Most of the stuff, almost everything we do, is in public in some form or fashion. Even when we do the club things like Stacy's book club, which is coming up in a couple of weeks, we do a live stream of that that everybody can watch. In fact, thanks to the club members we did on YouTube, twitch, kickxcom, linkedin, facebook, tiktok and in our ClubTwit Discord. So we stream it eight different ways and everybody's invited to watch. But after we stream it, we put it into the TwitPlus feed, which is available only to club members. But we only do that for a month. Again, I don't want to wall off our content, but I would love the idea of having it be listener supported. The thing is it doesn't have to be a hundred percent support. It doesn't even have to be 50% support. Right now, somewhere it's hovering between one and 2% of our audience is a club member.

02:09:02
If we could get that to 5%, it would turn everything around. We wouldn't need ads, we could grow, we could add shows. We could do so much more just with 5%. If only one in 20 of you subscribes, maybe that one is you. Seven bucks a month. We could try to keep it affordable. That's less than most podcast networks charge. It's really not much more than individual single podcast charge, but you get a whole lot more. You get ad-free versions of all the shows. You get access to the Discord, which has thousands of really smart, interesting social people in there we're hanging out. It's become my social network. I love it in there. In fact, december 1st, the Advent of Code Coding Challenge starts and we have a very active Advent of Code group in there and it's so much fun Probably we'll stream some of that.

02:09:53
Uh, anyway, the club is a great place and it makes a big difference in in what we do. It gives us an opportunity, uh, to kind of live my dream, which is we, we we only owe allegiance to our listeners. That's it. We don't have to gin up interest by creating drama. We just give you the information you need and if you think that's worthwhile, I think it's valuable.

02:10:21
If you love this show, if you love our other shows, please twittv slash club twit. There's a two-week free trial if you just want to get an idea of what it would be like. There's also a referral code. Now, everybody who joins gets a referral code they can use anywhere and every time somebody joins with that referral code, you get a free month. We're trying to make this fun. We're trying to make it affordable. We're trying to make it and you can help us do it. Twittv slash club twit. That's all I'll say. And, by the way, if you're a member, no ads. You don't even see this. You might see it live, because we can't otherwise. I just have to play it. Do like Google doesn't play a moment of Zen, but, uh, so live, you're going to get the ads. But if you don't want the ads, you can, uh, you can just get the downloads and they'll have no ads, not even this pitch. Uh, twittv, slash club twit. Thank you, we really appreciate, uh, your support. Now back to windows weekly.

02:11:17 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oops, it's paul's turn by the way, as you, as you were speaking, news came out that the us federal trade commission has opened an antitrust investigation of microsoft. What it's not computing and software on it too, like they get cyber security.

02:11:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh I'm, I'm actually shocked.

02:11:38 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's like we've seen this before I thought they were the kinder gentler tech giant they used to be?

02:11:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
do you feel like they're trying to do everything they can before january 20th?

02:11:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
it's like let's just get this all in the hopper and this is like um, if you, if you're a fan of football, football is this kind of whatever type of game it is, and then if it's a close game and there's like two minutes left, it turns into a completely different game. It's a different game, yeah, and that's what this is like politically. It's like um, I guess we get. It's like let's go. You know, like, so, yeah, stuff's happening. Well, that's fine.

02:12:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Actually it's funny how many games this uh football season have been resolved in the last few plays.

02:12:14 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
The last, I don't know if anyone watched the cowboys commanders game last five minutes of that, oh my god, like that might have been one of the best five minutes of football that's ever been played. Was that where the guy last five minutes.

02:12:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Your point, oh my god.

02:12:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And then they were there. Were there two more scores after that? Like, yeah, wild, I think. I think when that happened they were like less than 10 seconds. No, I think it was one more score. There was less than 10 seconds left and the uh cowboys rent back the kickoff for another score. Like it was unbelievable, I very. I think in the last five minutes there were like 30 points scored or something like that's crazy definitely I watched that.

02:12:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Then I switched from that to another, the end of another game where the same thing happened. It was all like last minute, and then, of course, the 49ers managed to lose in the last few seconds of every game so yeah, well, yes, sorry, now listen, you're gonna be true to yourself, I yeah tip of the week time.

02:13:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So I don't have much of a tip this time, because I already kind of talked about this. But, um, thanks to our the uh, era of misinformation we live in now and I I think we all succumb a little too easily to the it sounds right kind of argument. You know the microsoft is secretly rolling out recall to all these computers. And then you know, chris titus gets like 1.2 billion views or whatever it is. It's like no, you're, no, you're, you're stupid, that's not, that's not happening. Or you know, this thing this week with Microsoft is training AI on your data. And the outrage, you know the instant outrage. Meanwhile, I'm like Microsoft is enabling folder backup in OneDrive 15 months ago, and people like Paul, I think you're making this up I'm like, okay, I don't know what to tell you anymore. Like people don't get riled up about the right things and then they get, you know, crazy about the wrong things. So, unfortunately, I I can't solve the problem. But, um, you know, we need to think a little more critically here, you know, just, uh, clearly, critically.

02:14:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't know what I'm looking for well, and I want to pledge I agree 100 with you and I. I want to re-pledge our commitment to spreading light, not heat yeah, that's.

02:14:14 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I like that's a good phrase.

02:14:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, because we we yeah, we're on youtube, we're on all those platforms, but we don't make our money from that. That's why I really want to make our money from the audience, because I don't want to have to chase links, chase numbers. I just want to give you the best information, the most accurate information. I can Without like drumming up drama.

02:14:39 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Right, look, I mean, there's drama to be had.

02:14:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We don't have to invent it, yeah, we don't have to make it up, there's plenty of drama. I don't know, I'm just saying light, not heat. That's kind of. I don't know, I'm just saying light, not heat.

02:14:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's kind of the way Mark Manassi used to say this in his own sort of egotistical format, was I use my superpowers for good, you know, and yeah. There you go. I mean just yeah. So anyway, we got to start looking out for each other now.

02:15:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I mean we always should have been doing that. I really do this YouTube influencers thing is just really so. I mean we always should have been doing that. Honestly, I blame YouTube. I really do this.

02:15:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
YouTube influencer thing is just really destroyed. People who know nothing about nothing, accepting money from companies, are now influencing people to buy products or make decisions. And it's like guys, come on, this is like it was bad enough when it was celebrities. It's like Cher, what do you think about the election? Who cares? You know like, at least I mean, but at least that's someone I've heard of. It's like Cindy, you're wearing pom poms. What do you think about the election? It's like like. It's like come on, stop. Like so too far, hasn't it. It's too much. I don't know what happened to us, but we've lost it as a race.

02:15:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't know I have been encouraging folks to read as raw news as possible. Re associated press. Yep, the only thing you'll notice is that there's so little opinion in that you actually have to think about what you read oh my god.

02:15:55 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And by the way, there's you go. That's a skill we should all be developing what does this mean?

02:15:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
why don't they tell me?

02:16:00 - Richard Campbell (Host)
what it means. Yeah, exactly, they don't, but should I be outraged.

02:16:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Where's that paragraph? Because I want to be outraged part.

02:16:06 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's funny. The the other thing I found with reading news from there short. It's really short when you don't have to decorate.

02:16:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
it Doesn't take a lot of time, does it? Each piece is like a minute or two. Wow, that's an interesting observation.

02:16:21 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah. You can be concise, you can be clear.

02:16:25 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah Well, reuters just started doing YouTube clips now that are a minute or two. That's just basically reading the story with a couple of camera shots and again there's no opinion in it. So you really have to say what does this mean? Right?

02:16:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I can't write without having an opinion in it. As Alec Baldwin said, Americans are very uninformed about reality. Yeah, right.

02:16:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, I mean he's right. He's not wrong. Right, I mean he's not wrong.

02:16:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He's not wrong.

02:16:57 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
What a weird place to be in where Alec Baldwin is right about anything. But here we are.

02:17:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's the irony, but he's not wrong. We're listening to Alec now. How about your app pick of the week?

02:17:08 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I need a new browser what do you got?

02:17:10
well, you were always asking for new browsers. We got two. Uh, there's a new version of firefox out this week, 133. Those guys, they're on a faster release schedule than anyone, by the way, through every four weeks. Um, opera gx, which is a browser, I don't quite understand, but this we talked about this notion of a web browser built into game bar. Yeah, opera gx is specifically aimed at gamers, right, and so opera itself is this browser that is like infinitely or I thought it was uh, personalizable. This thing is even even more so it's kind of crazy. Um, but they tailor it specifically for gamers, so it does all these, uh, it's like special, like dark mode and lots of reds and greens and like um kind of a different. Wow, yeah, it's kind of weird, it's kind of interesting, but they're really buying into this and they have like, um, look at the posture of this kid, by the way and can I say why is he wearing crocs?

02:18:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
okay, I'm. You sound like the old man shouting at the class.

02:18:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I don't mind him wearing Crocs. What I mind is when I see a guy from America wearing those Crocs in Roma North a walking down the street with his Mac book, I want to beat him to death with those Crocs. Like that it's just. You know you're not on a beach right. Is this what teenagers look like? I don't know. This is maybe how?

02:18:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
where's opera norway? Right? This is how norwegian teenagers look.

02:18:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Right, that's what it is right, we're still doing the crocs thing yeah so I don't know, only in our way yeah

02:18:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
yeah all right. So if you're looking at opera gx, but it's, is it only for gamers?

02:18:44 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
no, I mean anyone could use it, obviously, but it's designed to be used along. You know you're playing games and you got this thing and it kind of you know, could be customized to be like visually simpatico with whatever else you're doing. It's it. You'll see when you install it. It's uh, it's not your, your father's old mobile, I guess, is the way to say oh, here's another teenager wearing crocs man.

02:19:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is, uh, they must have done some research. By the way. Kids posture sit up pull your pants up.

02:19:13 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
He's got it, cause otherwise I mean his, his. His screen is angled perfectly for where his head's going to be in some ways. In some ways, that is good posture If you ignore the fact that you have a back.

02:19:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, trust me, you're going to know you have a back when you get to my age.

02:19:27 - Richard Campbell (Host)
He's a teenager. He doesn't know he has a back for another 30 years.

02:19:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, but then he'll look at that image and say what was I thinking? What was I thinking? I heard my back getting out of bed. Like I don't even.

02:19:39 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
We really sound like a bunch of old-timers, don't we?

02:19:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You kids, watch out your knees, protect your knees. I always do that. I'll do this with my friends.

02:19:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Somebody like, oh my god, my back's killing me, like you do something heroic. And they're like no, I just rolled over wrong and yeah, yeah, it's got okay.

02:19:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Opera gx for people who wear crocs and sit. That's the target audience. That's the target audience, richard campbell. What's coming up on run?

02:20:04 - Richard Campbell (Host)
as radio uh published today my talk with mandy walls, who works for pager duty, about incident response and it really ended up being more of a focus on what it's what it's like to deal with incidents when you operate a sas infrastructure. So you know, first is scope like you have a lot of customers here. Are they all being impacted? Is it only a particular customer? That that was a huge issue. You can't just go around kicking servers, uh to try and get things up and running again. You gotta kind of scope in the problem and then deal with the issues. Uh, and obviously it was the class of issue like corrupted data or update failures like all these kinds of things, and a good second half that was just a conversation about the post-mortem, about getting away from accusation, really understanding what happened I like that and then building good strategies for no recurrence.

02:20:57
How do we auto-recover from that If it doesn't lead to a fix in software. Maybe you haven't taken it seriously. Usually we should be able to track from the incident to the work items on the stack. So that's what a real retrospective shows. It reflects into code. So that was the conversation, and a great one. We did it in person at NBC Porto a few weeks ago. It was very enjoyable.

02:21:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Speaking of Porto. I'm guessing that this comes from Porto. It does not, but it says it's Vinho. I know that's the one, I that's what I'm stuck on too. Yeah, isn't it portuguese what is it?

02:21:34 - Richard Campbell (Host)
no, it's, uh, it's weirder than that. So I have good I, I have friends.

02:21:40
I don't know, I don't know, you know this, but I do have friends and these friends, um, bring me things. And so, while I was in lithuania, my friends ben and heather had brought me a little sample of this whiskey. They they put it the way they got it because they're they're very much travel, you know warriors. So carry on only. So how do you bring me a sample of whiskey? Carry on, only. They put in a little two ounce bottle and carried it in their, their toiletry bag, right so I was able to have a decent.

02:22:08
You only got two ounces so I got two ounces, enough to taste it. You know, very reasonable, but this is the cavallan, uh, um vino barrique, which is from taiwan.

02:22:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Taiwan, taiwan, what taiwan that is not what I would have thought. Looking at the name, I would have thought maybe finnish from cavallan? No, maybe, because it's a vigno, even if you go to the website that island looks like it's off the north of scotland yeah, right, well it's nice to probably and so you know.

02:22:36 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Now for our little geopolitical lesson. So taiwan is about a 36 000 square kilometer island. It's about 14 000 miles in the measures of the oppressors, uh mountain ranges on the east coast, plains in the west coast. It's about 160 kilometers from mainland china, across the Taiwan Strait, japan to the northeast, philippines to the south, the south is China Seas to the south, the east China Seas to the north, because directions are complicated, because the Philippine Sea is to the east and of course it's a subtropical environment, although the southernmost parts of Taiwan are considered fully tropical. So that's hot summers, monsoons, very mild winters, not a normal thing you'd think of for growing whiskey, although there's been people on this island and the islands around it literally for millennia. The first evidence of human occupation of that land goes back 20, 30,000 years. There's clear evidence of agriculture starting around 3000 BC in an abruptly emerging culture that probably walked across a land bridge.

02:23:40
The interaction with the mainland, with the Chinese mainland, starts in the Yuan Dynasty, which is about 1300 AD. Of course. Then the Europeans arrived. The Portuguese named the island Formosa when they discovered it in the 1600s, and then it was both a Dutch and a Spanish colony. They fought over it for about 20 or so years until a local someone named Zhe Shengdong in 1662, successfully defeated the Dutch and made it opera base of operations while he was fighting a rebellion against the xing dynasty uh, which he lost in 1683. And then the xing dynasty ruled that island for a couple of hundred years as part of the dynasty. Not until the sino uh japanese war of 1895 does things change when Taiwan actually becomes part of Japan, until the end of World War II. So about 50 or so years at the end of World War II, when Japan's in full retreat, the Republic of China takes control of the island, which is good, because within a few years, towards the end of the Chinese Civil War, li Ka-shek and the rest of the ROK will retreat in 1949 onto the island and the communists cement their victory. That becomes China. But ROK remains on Taiwan and rules as the only for about 40 years, until democratic democratic reforms in the 1980s, whereupon they become what is known as the Taiwan miracle, or one of the four Asian tigers. Along with South Korea and Hong Kong and Singapore, that becomes a rapidly industrialized nation, sort of a demonstration model for how you can abruptly convert an economy. Today there's about 24 million people living on the island, and this is where TSMC is and many other interesting and important things.

02:25:30
However, when it comes to alcohol, until 2002, taiwan had a completely state-controlled corporation called the Taiwan Tobacco and Liquor Corporation that dealt with anything to do with tobacco and liquor. They made their own beer, although it was largely based on the German-American style, and also made what would be appropriate local liquor like shoju and the like. There is a domestic liquor that is really derived from a Chinese style called Chao Lang, which is made from fermented sorghum, more potent than shoju. It's called Chinese white wine in direct translations. There are versions that are in the 50, 60% range. There's an Everclear variant that's like 92% alcohol, good for stripping engine parts.

02:26:17
But after 2002, when Taiwan joins the World Trade Organization, they end their monopoly and allow more imports as well as local production of alcohol. Imports as well as local production of alcohol. And very quickly, taiwan became a huge fan of whiskey. In 2021, they imported 22 million liters of whiskey, of which 90% of that came from Scotland. So, like Japan, they had a really strong interest in Scottish whiskey, and the Scots were enthusiastic too, because the way that Taiwan taxes spirits is by alcohol content and volume, not by the retail price of it. So not only was whiskey relatively low taxed, but expensive whiskey was very low taxed and so high end whiskey is very, very common in Taiwan. They do have Excess drinking culture, very much a binge drinking culture, although in recent years has been a big pushback against that.

02:27:23
Kind of like Japan yeah they say, and in Korea as well. Like it is sort of a known issue that is now. And Korea as well. Like it is sort of a known issue that is now sort of transforming so very quickly after the WTO connection, a conglomerate called King Car, which is built by it's a family business, the founder is Tian Xia Li and this King Car literally translates to like drive wealth.

02:27:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They make beer, they make hygiene products, mr brown coffee, they have an aquaculture, uh conglomerate mr brown coffee, mr brown coffee it comes in a can in a vending machine, right, something like it's free, it's freeze-dried coffee, uh, and free of charge, freeze-dried, oh, freeze-dried coffee.

02:28:10 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Free of charge, freeze-dried, oh, freeze-dried, okay, yeah, yeah. And so Lee is a big fan of whiskey, so he wanted a whiskey operation and by 2005, he started Mr Brown Coffee. He started on building a distillery that called Cavalan Cavalan the name comes from the local indigenous people of the region that they built oh interesting distillery and so it's got a tie in with the?

02:28:36
uh, the native people. The area is called yilan, which is up in the high northeast corner of taiwan would arguably be the coolest part, although they're up against the hills there. Because very good, high quality water supply and as they were, the distillery was built very quickly. They went totally Scottish, so four sides of Scotland supplied four distills, a pair of 7,000 liter spirit stills, a pair of 12,000 liter wash stills, and they hired as an advisor a fellow by the name of Jim Swan, who I should almost do a sole separate show about.

02:29:18
Uh, dr jim swan, who's passed now, um, known as the einstein of whiskey, oh, worked with dozens of distilleries. The ones you've probably heard of would be like clyde scythe in glasgow, uh kilchamani on the isla um amrut in india, which is, on my rate, I do have a bottle of at some. At some point we'll do a show on him. He's published I mean, he's literally a PhD in whiskey and he's published a bunch of papers on that, and one of his specialties was how to make good quality whiskey in hot climates. And so he spent 10 years working with Kavalan and his focus was specifically on what they called wood policy or what kind of wood would work well in the conditions that Taiwan offers, and his focus was on. You should be using American oak rather than European oak, as European oak tends to be more bitter in those kinds of temperatures. But he also developed a methodology for utilizing barrels called the STR cask treatment STR short for shaved, toasted and recharred oh man, I do that every morning there yeah

02:30:16
mr brown, of course, saturday night at my place. Uh, now the and this. This really came about in the early 2010s when whiskey was taking off and there was a big shortage of barrels, and so he sort of showed that you can take existing barrels, including wine casks, and shave them down, take the interior surface off, toast and char them and utilize them again so better utilization of barrels and Cavillan took this to heart and makes a large array of different kinds of whiskey. Now this place has been in operation for less than 20 years, but by 2016, they were doing so well. They built a second distillery and added 16 more stills, so they're now up to 20 stills. Although all identical, all the same style of washing spirit stills from four sides. So they produce 9 million liters of alcohol a year.

02:31:07
Their barley comes from Scotland and Finland, because it's not a good growing conditions for barley. On Taiwan, they have 16 stainless tanks for fermentation and their storage facility is a pair of five-story warehouses that are built into the hills and tried to keep as cool as possible Because of the frequency of earthquakes in taiwan. They're very careful with how they strap their barrels, so they tend to take four barrels and strap them together and mount them onto the rack so they can take some shaking without a lot of trouble. But they do have high temperatures to deal with through the summer and so their angel share, which is, you know, in a place like scotland between one and two percent per, I bet, with the heat 15%, wow. So they don't do a lot.

02:31:53
A, they haven't had time to do long aging. But also, long aging just doesn't serve them particularly well and it means their whiskeys come across with strong flavors in a short amount of time. But their relationship with Dr Swan also opened them, got them access to a lot of different barrels, so they do a lot of unique barreling. So almost all of their whiskeys are initially aged in American oak, both virgin and used bourbon casks very Scottish approach to it. And then they'll do different kinds of finishing barrels. So you will see some ports and some sherrys and some wine finishes, and that's what we're talking about here. The vino barrique is actually a barrique, is a kind of cask that stores wine. But in this case the vino barriques have been str'd, they've been shaved and toasted and recharred for doing aging. The expectation of this particular whiskey than when we're talking about the vino barrique is about five years old again. No age statements on any of cavallan's whiskeys.

02:32:53
This I only had two ounces of it, boy, it was good, got it a big strong fruit notes you wouldn't, expect that to be honest with no and this is one of the reasons that heather and ben brought it to me. It's like they were in taiwan this is the biggest distillery in taiwan there so they figured they try it out. They tried a lot of different ones and then they were in Taiwan this is the biggest distillery in Taiwan so they figured they'd try it out. They tried a lot of different ones and then they were pinging me saying, yeah, we're bringing you some of this. That's really interesting. The one I had was 54.8%, so basically, a cask strength, a lot of clout to it and well, it is available in Canada. I can get it. The bottle is $315 Canadian, which is about $225 US if you can find it. Wow, relatively hard find. There's only a couple more distilleries in Taiwan so far, but this is the big one and they've won a bunch of awards, including this.

02:33:45
Whiskey itself has won World Whiskey Awards. They've won Best Distillery Awards. Itself has won um world whiskey awards. Uh, they've won best distillery awards. Like they're doing good things but they're plugged into some of the best, which there's a reason for why they've been as successful as they've been. It's very cool. Yeah, it was a fun tour for me and it's, you know, the same way. My friend, uh, my friend glenn brought me the, the sledgehammer, the havlinson from last week. There's a little bit left, oh uh, it's only a 500 ml bottle got good friends.

02:34:10
I do have good friends and they're starting to enjoy the fact that you know I'm doing all these nutty things with whiskey, so there have been that's awesome more being brought to me all the time. So, yeah, you'd have some fun with it anyway. That's.

02:34:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I thought a taiwanese whiskey would be fun and it was delicious, really extraordinary solist vino barrique, that's it, single cast strength and it has been shaved, toasted, toasted and recharged that's it that's what they did, also shaken, apparently thanks to all the earthquakes so, yes, thanks to mr brown.

02:34:44
Uh, wow, uh. We have gone all around the world on this episode and now we're right back where we started. It's kind of a major miracle, but I'm so glad you guys were here to do it. Paul thurott is at thurottcom that's where his blog is. Become a premium member to get access to everything, including the field guide to windows 11. Or you can go to leanpubcom and buy yourself a copy there. It includes windows 10, by the way. Inside it's like the soft chewy layer inside the gum. It's the nougat.

02:35:15
It's the nougat it's the tootsie in the pot. The tootsie roll in the tootsie pot. He also wrote a book called Windows Everywhere, which is a really interesting kind of. It's a unique look at a history of the history of windows through its development frameworks. It's really, really a great idea, I think. A great book, paul. Always a pleasure. I'm glad you're here. I hope you have a wonderful thanksgiving, sir you too.

02:35:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
What are you doing? How are you doing this?

02:35:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
well, so we got invitations from four different family groups wow, oh wow uh. At which point lisa and I said let's go out to eat. Really, wow, I didn't want to have to choose one you know we're gonna go visit a couple and so forth, but yeah, uh, I couldn't just choose one.

02:36:00
I might have underestimated. It might even be a larger number, uh. So, uh, we, there's a lovely uh hotel in sonoma. That's a wonderful resort and they do an incredible thanksgiving. Oh, we've been there before pre-covid and uh, we thought, oh, let's, let's go there, it'll be fun, we'll have a nice. They have a caviar bar and a prime rib station, as well as a turkey actually and cheese there you go.

02:36:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So good, richard, you might. Uh, did you meet? I can't remember if you met don. So I have a friend who makes his own alcohol, including some pretty good whiskey, so he always risks he does. He does a five year whiskey, so we're opening a five-year barrel on friday actually okay, his last one, the 2020 bit next week.

02:36:43 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Then yeah, it was very, very good well, this one's like super exclusive you can't get it.

02:36:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean, you know, you have a friend yeah, you're both kids made at home so, yeah, they're both here now. Yay, my, uh, you know we don't have a house, so we go to my sister's now, but my sisters both of them have demanded that. Uh, my wife do all the cooking because she does it right I.

02:37:06 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I have a american cousin up.

02:37:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is one of my wife's cousins oh, so you're getting a second thanksgiving yeah, so we're getting a little extra thanks because richard, as you know, as a canadian, yeah we do it in october, like I, I think I'm gonna bring thanksgiving to mexico.

02:37:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's gonna be my clan I think the mexicans will embrace this holiday for its food and family thing and I think they would love it plus the whole repression of the natives thing. They love that stuff, so it's going to be fun. It all works together really. Yeah, it's.

02:37:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's just kind of it's the holy trinity of holiday really richard campbell is at run as radio that's his website run as radiocom. He also does dot net rocks. You can get both at his website. He comes to us from madera park, british columbia. It's wonderful to have him home. We do windows weekly every wednesday, 11 am. Pacific 2 pm. Eastern 1900, utc.

02:38:03
You can watch, as I mentioned, live on eight different platforms, all the major video streaming platforms. We'd be on, we'd be on mixer if we could, but we can't. But that's another story for another day. But we are everywhere else. Watch us live at the recording time or, better yet, you know, watch us at your convenience.

02:38:22
You can get copies of the show, either audio or video or both, at twittv slash, ww. If you go there, there's a link to the YouTube channel. That's great for sharing clips. You know, if you have somebody you think would like this Cavalan whiskey, you just clip it out. That's nice for two reasons. One, it's an easy way to everybody can see a YouTube clip. So it's an easy way to share something and YouTube makes it very easy to say start here, here and here. But also it's a great way to share windows weekly and tell people about the show, because we really, we, we really appreciate that. So, uh, that's another way to watch, but the best thing to do is subscribe in your favorite podcast client. You'll get it automatically as soon as we're done and you won't ever have to wonder hey, what should I listen to next?

02:39:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
listen to windows which of my data should be trained by ai? All of your data paul.

02:39:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Richard, have a wonderful week. Paul, have a great thanksgiving. We'll be back together in december for the next windows weekly, it'll be one after 909. Here we go. Yep, take care you too. Take care, you too.