Windows Weekly 902 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show

00:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul Theriot is here. Well, actually, he's in Mexico City. Richard Campbell's here. He's in Ibiza, but they are you know what. Nothing will stop them from doing Windows Weekly. We'll talk about Patch Tuesday. Microsoft finally admits 24H2 is a thing. Will Google be broken up and how? Plus some very good Xbox news if you're a Halo fan. All that and more coming up next on Windows Weekly Podcasts you love From people you trust. This is Twit. This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thorat and Richard Campbell, Episode 902. Recorded Wednesday, October 9th 2024. Nothing to declare it's time for Windows Weekly, the show where we cover the latest news from Microsoft, and this is today. This today is going to be our Spanish language edition Nice, Because we have Paul Theriot. He's in mexico city.

01:06
Hi, paul hola leo hola paul, and ibiza, which I believe last time I checked is in spain, is part of spain. Part of spain, richard. It's an island. Part of spain, richard campbell, richard just off the coast of valencia.

01:23 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's beautiful here. Oh, it is gorgeous, I love.

01:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Ibiza. And then, uh, the guy who founded Cirque du Soleil built a massive mansion there. Out on the point, does Gates? Fly there all the time, uh probably, and there's a little mini stonehenge that he built, kind of like a little stone as you do as one does right across the way. So just a little something.

01:45 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I got my arrow update on january 10th.

01:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, we both were comparing. This is ridiculous. Yeah, so you may remember I've almost forgotten back in july, we ordered the qualcomm snapdragon elite developer kit from thundercom technology. Uh, and it's been putting off, putting off, putting off. There's been all sorts of hitches. Somebody jeff gerstmann got one, or who got one, somebody curling got one. But uh, we now have the same date january 10th 2025.

02:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Jeez louise, next year we're gonna get it chip out by the time this thing arrives.

02:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I know yeah I don't want it. Well, didn't they send us an email saying you don't have to change it, yeah, yeah yeah but I mean that read like a threat you got 10 off. What do you want?

02:36 - Richard Campbell (Host)
yeah, now I think I'll definitely make them ship it here and then I'll return it ship it to spain, exactly no and then leo will get it.

02:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There you go, there's one circulating just keep it clean, we're gonna move it along yeah, right, yeah, well, that's what they do with review units.

02:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Sometimes, right, you get old review units. They're kind of a little beat up and a little sticky, sticky and sometimes have pictures that you just well weren't on there. I I've never seen that, but I have actually, way back in the day, yeah, I had a phone from uh, I think, sprint that had somebody else's pictures on it.

03:20
Oh my boy I don't do loners anymore so I'm missing out on all the fun these days, but all right, so back to uh, the business at hand, ie microsoft and dare I say, ie around here in microsoft and leo, I don't know, careful.

03:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Therefore, I don't know what. That was all a little sensitive let's talk windows 11, gentlemen speaking of former empires, nice, yeah. So yesterday, yeah, yesterday was patch tuesday, the most wonderful time of the month until week d comes, and after months and months of anticipation, 24h2 is a real boy.

04:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so 22, 23, 24h2 all got cumulative updates, basically the same update. There were actually two separate updates. This was the last one for 22H2. As we know, it's going out of service at the end of the month, I guess, or at some point this month. And for the first time, 24h2 is on the Microsoft support site, and what I mean by that is if you Google something like Microsoft updates or whatever, you can see a list of all of the updates that Microsoft has ever released for each of the versions of Windows 11. But 24H2 has been missing from that collection of.

04:45
Yes, it's just kind of not been real, it's just been an insider's thing, right yeah, so every month, when patch tuesday came, or week d as well, laurent the guy writes the news would text me and say, hey, could you look this up because I can't find it? Because you can't, unless you know the kb number, you could never go find the uh support article linked to the update. So I would do that every month and find it. So those articles were all out there kind of floating but not linked to anything. But now there's a page which is weird, right? Yeah, so they went back. You can get all the updates now going back to june there and see what they were did he bing?

05:21 - Richard Campbell (Host)
yet maybe it was only on bing did he bring it?

05:24 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
no, you actually. You couldn't do it like you could. You could if you, unless you had the, if you had the kb number, you could, but you needed that why would they not have an index?

05:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
that's crazy I.

05:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Why is a? Is a in a version of windows real? And if it doesn't fall in the woods?

05:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I, I don't know. But they say well, nobody knows the link, it's private.

05:44 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, nobody knows the kb number yeah, like I don't know if you bought a co-pilot plus pc in june, july, whatever. You're getting updates every month, you might want to know what they are, you know? I mean, it's it's support, fully supported by microsoft. You could have installed it early using that tip I had back in may, fully supported microsoft's business. Customers could be deploying this in their environments, but yeah, it was like it didn't exist. So now that it's out for everybody, as it was as of what? October 1st I believe, and now we've had our first, past Tuesday, it's like hey look, it's our first update. Except we've actually had 19 of them so far. So just, you know Microsoft. Anyway, no surprises, we knew the things that were coming. None of them are particularly Well. Actually one of them is pretty cool. So if you hit the start button and then click on your little picture, sign out is back. They brought it back out. What's that?

06:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Sign out.

06:44 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Sign out sorry, oh, that sign out, sign out, sorry, oh sign is to be available there. They replace that man right a new interface. That's pointless and they put it under a little sub menu. Now it's brought back out. So huge change? There's not much and, like I said, even though the KB or the cumulative updates were different between 22, 23 and 24 and 24H2, it's basically the same set of updates. So I would say right now there's probably a bunch of people experiencing not a lot new, because even if they do get 24H2, they probably had all those features anyway.

07:18
So we're all on this kind of weird controlled feature release CFR roulette wheel, of weird controlled feature release CFR roulette wheel, and we'll just see where, you know, one day you're going to wake up and there's going to be new features and or a new feature and that's. You know, that's our world. So there you go, and then I'm just going to throw this out here because I feel like people listening or watching this might have the book. But the Windows 11 field guide is being updated for 24H2. That's going to be one of the big things I do this month and I've already I don't know the number, but I've already updated several of the chapters. They're all kind of the basic chapters, but hopefully I think each one of them has at least something new in it. So if you own the book, download it again, because it's been updated. It will be every week or so I'll send out an email.

08:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Isn't that sad. You can never go on vacation really because microsoft, I mean, I'm just I'm just shifting locations. I'm not on vacation, I'm just here, you know if I were in mexico city, I'd kind of want to at least pretend I was on vacation so I mean well, we eat out a lot yeah, um, you're a work in the morning guy, right Like that's.

08:26 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I do that most of the time too Work till lunch and then off you go.

08:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's actually great. That's a good life yeah.

08:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's my. That's my home swap schedule, although we don't do home swaps anymore. It's nice, you know, except for him I'm a sleep in the morning kind of guy. Actually, I did comment to my wife, you know we were walking around and I said you know, I haven't really taken any pictures.

08:46
You know, I usually I always walk around like click click, click, click, you know, like whatever. Yeah. Yeah, we've kind of done the same things enough times where it's like, eh, I don't know, or I'll take pictures, and then this is how you know that place is becoming home.

08:58 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, yeah.

09:00 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And the other way, you know, is you know we've been gone for a couple of months, right? So we're walking down the street and then you stop and you're like that's new. You know, like there's a new little business, or a sign, or you know.

09:13 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yep, something's changed.

09:14 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I took a picture of a thing, I don't know what it's called, not a cornice, but something up on the corner of a building.

09:19 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Like I don't think that was there, wow, and I went and looked up.

09:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I went through all my pictures. I'm like there it is. No, it's not there. So it was new, like I actually noticed this weird little concrete thing on a building. You know, there you go, but yeah, this is the, I don't know. Whatever, this is my life, I don't know, anyhow shirt.

09:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I wouldn't wear that here. I'm here, I don't need to wear a shirt, but that's a good point. You know, would you if you looked at me wearing? This shirt walking down the street, tourist probably wearing flip-flops carrying a macbook. Talking loudly on a phone, you know I I could, because I'd like to put my order in now if I can sell, sell, sell, sell I'm never coming back.

10:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Welcome back to Rumanorte.

10:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I will have you know. These shirts are made in Mexico Well, san Miguel is sort of Mexico, san Miguel de Allende by local seamstresses with local print fabrics. Nice, and I just bought five more because I love them so much. Yeah, and I had stopped wearing them. You know, I was wearing a neck, not a necktie, but a jacket, a blazer and a dress shirt.

10:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, you used to be very professional, I remember.

10:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I decided I don't need to be professional, I'm home.

10:32 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So what happens from working from?

10:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
home right? I actually thought it looks a little better in the colorful surroundings.

10:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think so too. Actually it looks great.

10:40 - Richard Campbell (Host)
To wear a shirt that has some something going on. It has the pop.

10:43 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, I will tell you, though, walking around Mexico City at least probably a lot of Mexico you wouldn't see a nice shirt like that. Usually, I mean, of course, people do dress up, but most of the people here are wearing the throwaway shirts. It would be like the team that lost the Super Bowl one year, but they made the shirts. You'll see a guy wearing a Red Sox sweatshirt and a Yankees hat and he's like dude A Sergeant Shriver for President shirt, things like that. It's just you know it's.

11:09
Old stuff. It's where shirts go to die.

11:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But you know Mexico and I guess it's more dressy. But they have some beautiful like muslin, very thin cotton with embroidery shirts.

11:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I love those, those are beautiful and of course, here, because it's 65 degrees during the day now, people are wearing those puffy Michelin jackets you would wear in the winter.

11:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's so cold.

11:28 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It is so cold.

11:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They're all freaking out. We walked in in shorts to this bar. We go to everyone's wearing winter coats.

11:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, that's hysterical. What's going on in here? Did the freezer break open? Oh, that's hysterical. Yeah, very strange, very funny. All right, well, there is our travelogue break. Yeah, sorry, now let's continue with the exciting Windows news.

11:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So, since no, not that Since last week's release of 24H2, I was going to say since Patch Tuesday, although actually one of these has happened since Microsoft has started churning on the builds again in the Windows Insider Preview, right so?

12:00 - Richard Campbell (Host)
last week, so now 24H2 is out of the Insiders, so we get used. Well, so is it?

12:06 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
no, not exactly right this is where things get complicated.

12:09
So, if I'm see I don't even know off the top of my head, I believe with dev. Dev is in fact let me just look to be sure. I don't want to say this. If it's a mistake, it will say here somewhere I think dev is still on the yeah, still based on the 24h2 branch or fork, whatever. So these are updates that will come to 24h2 over the next, you know, several months. Canary is not tied to anything. Um, the last time I checked, beta was tied to 23h2. Well, actually I should look that one up too. Uh, let's see if that's still the case, because you know 23, well, 232, I almost abethas that is also tearing forward. So they're going to probably get the same sorts of updates alongside 24H2. So I think it's just Canary that's not really tied to anything for now.

12:59 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So maybe that's Windows 12.

13:02 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You know I spent a lot of time speculating about Windows 12 last year. I'm going to hold off on that for now, because 24H2 was supposed to be Windows 12 and someone decided to reel that in at the last second.

13:16 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I suspect we could just wait until Apple releases a new version of Mac OS.

13:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think maybe they need to change co-pilot and windows 11 two more times before we get to windows 12.

13:28
It's it's kind of hard to say windows, and windows for co-pilot, and yes, right I was just yeah, I was writing a bit in the book about this, the co-pilot versus co-pilot plus thing, and this will be endlessly fascinating until both these terms are gone, or not fascinating. Confusing, uh, until it's not fascinating in the slightest, it's just confusing, um, until one or both go away eventually, which I think they will. Anywho. Uh, the dev build has added such things as customizing that copilot key that nobody wanted, right, um. And then you know some other stuff related to some of the stuff we've already talked about the new sandbox that's coming, which looks kind of interesting, etc. But nothing major.

14:10
And then we just got a build of Canary today as well, which is not particularly interesting. Actually, there's not much going on there, I think. Right now what we're seeing is a lot of these builds, even though they're different channels, are kind of aligning from a feature standpoint, just like we see out in stable with 23 and 24 H2. So, okay, we have a bunch of other stuff related to windows that will come up right now and then later, and it's kind of split up. But the passkey bit is in 23 H2,. Microsoft released and announced, for some reason, passkey support in windows 11. Microsoft released and announced, for some reason passkey support in Windows 11 that you know there's not much.

14:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
How does it?

14:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
work. I mean it doesn't. That's the easiest way to say it. It doesn't it doesn't do anything.

14:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm curious because passkeys, I mean, I yeah, uh, with my password manager. That kind of makes sense. Yep, I use it with my phone. That kind of makes sense. Would windows 11 have a, uh, some sort of secure enclave where it would store your?

15:08 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
your keys and in fact it does uh yes, and so they. They do the same thing, you see, on mobile.

15:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's uh tied to your account, your microsoft account? Yeah, it is. Is it tied to that computer though?

15:19 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
no, oh sorry. Yes, the answer is yes, but they also have passkey support separately in your microsoft account. So I should just say just to kind of frame this when they announced this support last year it was very basic and they didn't explain it very well, but what I discovered was that when you sign into a Windows 11, 23, h2 Plus computer or newer computer I should say it actually creates a passkey for your Microsoft account or your enter ID account. When you do that, there's not much you can do with that thing. It's. It's kind of silly, but I suppose if you're using Microsoft Edge and you sign into the Microsoft something, something website, it would pass that through. You'd have to authenticate with Windows Hello, which could be as simple as a. It's kind of always been the case that the difference is that it was saved as a passkey. This is kind of new. But then they spent the next year not doing anything else with it and when I looked at it, probably in December, it just wasn't much there. Since then they've added partial support for passkeys to the Microsoft account as well. That again, same thing, not full support. It's actually more full featured in your Microsoft account than it is in Windows 11.

16:32
So yesterday or the day before they announced it's not here yet, but in the coming weeks or days or whatever, they will be updating the passkey support in Windows 11. And actually one of these is pretty cool because they're doing that portable passkey thing right. They're going to tie it to your account. You're going to authenticate with Windows Hello again, and once you do that on one computer, that will be available to you on other computers. So this is the thing that's not in the spec, but Microsoft is working with the maintainers of the spec at the fido alliance and it will become part of it, right? So when you see companies like dashlane, I know, does this proton in proton pass? And I think borden, does it bitwarden one password, etc. So our sponsor you can.

17:18 - Richard Campbell (Host)
problem right now with pass keys is that you've got the browser, the operating system and your plugin trying to compete for who gets your passkey Right.

17:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And you really want to settle on one. I think, yeah, you want it in one place.

17:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There are also implementations where you'll sign into something in a web browser, on desktop, let's say, and it says it will just go to passkey. And you're like nice, and so you say, yes, I'll do this Right. And then it puts up a QR code because you can write off the passkey that's on your phone and it's like guys.

17:45
I have a passkey on this system, so I think this is the. I think this is just reading. Yeah, I think it's early days. This will be, you know, standardized somewhat from a UI perspective. We'll get there.

17:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But in Windows defense. It's the same on every platform. Yeah, oh yeah, it's not.

18:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Everyone well, everyone who's used an Apple device knows that Apple has a very unique take on 2FA right that when you sign into Apple's website or into one of their services or whatever it is, it pops up an alert on another Apple device. Yeah, that's kind of cool if you have another Apple device.

18:20
It's cool if you have another Apple device or have any Apple device. So if I'm on a Windows computer and I want to go to Apple Music on the web, I'll just make something up. It's going to throw a thing up. Now I was recently in a circumstance where I didn't have any Apple device with me and I had never had that happen. I was like what's going to happen here? But actually they just fall back to text messages. But the way they do it is very interesting, because they don't present it as a choice. You're doing this right, right, right, and then if it fails or you have to say, look, I can't do this, then you can go do something else honestly, which is what you kind of want?

18:57
because it's not a bad idea.

18:58 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah yeah, you don't want the bad guy.

19:00 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Your process, right, right I do like that and I and I, and that's why it reminds me of the passkey experience I see, sometimes in windows and probably on the web uh, mobile too, but mostly in windows where that thing I described, you know, it comes up with a qr code or something. It's like guys, I have a passkey right here, it's, it's, it's in the computer, you should see that. I know so this is on microsoft. I think to some degree, but I think this world is just confusing for everybody.

19:26 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yes, Anyhow, I think there's conversations in the Bino Alliance and then, at the same time, people are using it Right, and so I think they're building these implementations and then using them in the conversations, the same way that HTML5 went through its iterations with the, each of the browser manufacturers just putting features out there, and we were fools to use them because they would suddenly take them away too, right so?

19:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
then we'd use them as a negotiating tactic in the committee one thing the fido alliance did at first, and I think is still uh existing, is they didn't have a way to export paskies to move them from platform to platform. I think that was a security feature, but I think it's increasingly becoming clear.

20:08 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's just like Microsoft did with Recall. Look it's on-device, it's this device, it's isolated. It sounds good from kind of a security posture perspective, but if we have encryption, and these services are secure.

20:20
We have 2FA, et cetera. I mean, come on, there's always this battle between convenience and security, and convenience always wins. I can't tell you, it freaks me out Even technical people. You talk to them. I have friends who don't have a passcode on their phone, like it's too much time. Oh, that's terrible. What are you doing? Your entire life was on this device. Come on, man. I I think there is a I pass keys have kind of a bad rap.

20:49
I think the way this will be presented in the future is that it's, it's passwordless is what we're really talking about. Yeah, and it's. It's a 2fa kind of a thing and it. You know we all have these like something, you know something, whatever. But it really is the most convenient way to do this thing, the most secure way, and I think for most people, that's some form of something on their phone, whatever.

21:10
You know that we had a hard time accepting this with recall. I don't know why that keeps coming up, but that Windows Hello could somehow be secure enough, that all the other stuff people complain about didn't matter. But when we authenticate on a phone, whether it's an authenticator app I'm trying to get into or a code that's being displayed or whatever it is. You know, I bring the thing up and it gives me choices sometimes, or sometimes it makes me do something, but a lot of times it's facial. Sometimes it says look, I want you to do the fingerprint. Sometimes you have to do this. Sometimes it sends a code. Sometimes you type a code. Whatever it is, mix it up. It just do that every time. And the idea is, whatever happens every time you authenticate, it's passwordless, right? You're not typing in some stupid 26 digit password or whatever. So, yeah, I think that's that's the goal right it's.

21:57 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's always the bear, right it's? When getting a new device lit up like, oh yeah, I can't do a thing with this pixel until I log into my google account and that is a 32 random character password so I right, I have a.

22:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Uh, I use pocket for read later. Right, it's a great service, I love it. Whatever mozilla bought it. Fine, I like mozilla a lot, no problem.

22:19
At some point they said look, you had some kind of whatever account you had. We're going to transition this over to a what used to be a firefox account, but now is a Mozilla account. I think, excellent, I like Mozilla, I trust Mozilla, I don't care. And now they're like all right, listen, you have to have 2FA. We're going to protect this thing because, god knows, your read later is so important that no one can see what you're reading on the web, so you have to do 2fa now.

22:46
I just said I think this is the baseline you should be. You should have to do this and it should. You know, whatever there. There's this particularly tedious, and because I use so many different computers, I have to sign into this thing twice on every computer, because you need the one that goes into the browser actually at least twice, I should say, because that's how you can save an article later. You, you have the extension, so every browser and I use four browsers, right, or five even, depending on the computer and then you have to sign in on the site. Even though you just signed into the extension, you would still have to do it again. So I'm looking at Instapaper right now because I can't stand it.

23:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I just like, guys, this is not. Can I make a recommendation? Yeah, please, there's program I use. I really like uh, and I've used it for some time. It's not free, it's like 20 bucks a month. It's called raindropio, is that what?

23:29 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
someone, I think someone just recommended that to me. Yeah, so it's uh what it's a book.

23:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It says it's a bookmark manager. Okay, that's the ostensibly. You know what it does, but it will, like pockets, save the whole article for reading later in a nice format, without any yeah, well, I'll show you my raindrop, what I really like well, no, don't. It's supposed to have 2fa and you it's supposed to be protected I have the desktop app right and so there's different ways you can look at your articles. You can use a list, but I you can also do cards almost yeah, it's like an rss feed.

24:02
Um, I'm actually I've been moved all the shows that you know. I used to use pinboard as a bookmark manager. I moved all my shows over to this. I find it really uh great so anyway, take a look at it. There's a free tier. You could certainly try it, uh, before you buy it but I think this is what someone just recommended.

24:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And again, it's all about the sync between machines. So that doesn't matter what device you pick up, it's there.

24:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Raindrop is everywhere. I have it on all my machines, on my phone, on everything.

24:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
If I'm somewhere with my phone, I just want five seconds, whatever I'm like. Well, what's going on here? I love this kind of thing.

24:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, I have Raindrop and it works on Android, iOS, mac, mac, windows, um, I, you know it would work on linux because there's a web interface, it's. I think it's a really right, I don't know, you know, for a read later. If it's ideal for read later, it will do that, but it's, you know, I take, I take big excerpts from each article, so I know what I'm talking about. You know what. You know what you need. Maybe some sort of thing with ai that would summarize like a pocket with a I'm.

25:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Maybe I'm old, but I like to actually read the thing you know I'm so fat I mean a lot of a lot of it is uh, my use of this is split. I would say probably. Maybe I'll just say 50, 50, I'm not really sure, but between long form content that I actually do want to read yeah, and I want it to be in this nice presentation, whatever and then they're just things for me to remind me.

25:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So in the morning I'll look at it and say, oh, I want to write about this thing it's just, that's what raindrop's really good for yeah right yeah, so and of course, if you I mean if you didn't have the read later you could click the link and I'm pretty sure it will download the article and and put a read later on it. But anyway, it's worth a look yeah, I like it a lot yeah let's get off, yeah.

25:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So what are we doing here, you?

25:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
want to talk about your. What laptops did you bring with you? So?

25:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
beautiful. Oh, by the way, not to keep turning this into a travel log, but one of the big stories about mexico that people keep putting in front of me is this notion that you fly to mexico and you have some kind of number of devices in your bag and they pull you aside and they make you pay a tax on this. So I've never seen like you're importing these things. Right then you're going to sell them for sale yeah.

26:11
So I've always being apprised of this. I've always thought I will show them the emails from lenovo or hp or whatever saying, see, I'm doing this for work and whatever. Yeah, but I do worry about it. It's never happened, to my knowledge, in Mexico city. A friend of ours who visited us here a couple of years ago flew through Merida and it happened to him there. He paid $180. Wow, yeah, and I. It happens very frequently, I think in Cancun that's like the big thing.

26:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So every time I come here with many laptops and never had that happen. But I've flown Cancun with many laptops and never had that happen.

26:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But I think it's probably hit and miss, right? Yeah, the third-hand stories I hear are always it's always Cancun, anyway. So we fly here. We flew her in a different airline because we flew through Dallas. It was Aero Mexico and we flew into Terminal 2, which is not. We usually always go into Terminal 1. So this is new, it's a completely different experience. And at the end they there's these two lines where they're pushing all the bags through these machines to scan them, and I'm like I came here with four laptops, two tablets and three and three phones this is all for personal use, man, it's all personal use it would work.

27:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I'm like I'm not, I'm not pushing, I'm just, it's for me man.

27:24 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
We get to the, we're right before this machine, there's two of them. The line splits and I got into the middle between the two lines and I read the sign. And the sign said if you have nothing to declare, you can just walk. You don't have to put your stuff in the back. No one was doing it. Everyone is lemming like going through the machine Right off in the back. No one was doing it. Everyone is lemming like going through the machine. Right, they're not paying attention. So I read the sign. I said I have nothing to declare, because I always say I do declare anyway. And I I walked right out of there and I got grabbed by a security guy and he pulled me back in and he made me put my bag through the machine, really, even though it's dead and I said but, sir, it's, it doesn't matter, we it?

28:04
So anyway, it went through and I'm like, here we go. You can kiss what is that? 360 bucks, or whatever. So it went through and it came out and no one said anything and I took my bag and I walked on out of there and I don't have any idea what they were looking for Some places in Mexico I've been to.

28:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's a button there and you hit the button as you're going through and it randomly selects whether you go to the bag to look through them or not. I think that was in cancun. I've seen it several times I, I don't.

28:37 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I I call this the royal treatment. I never want to be that guy because I always have so much stuff you know like please don't make me take it up that really, I mean honestly, if I saw you had like several, like four laptops. No, no, listen, the bag is small. I look like a normal person. You look like you're a smuggler, like a serial killer might, you know, like you might fool people, but that's hysterical. I don't understand why the bag didn't go through and like, stop, go back the guy over the corner.

29:06
That's what I was and I'm like you know, and then you never hear from me again. But I don't know what they were. I don't, I don't know. Do you have any?

29:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
special status. I mean, are you just an American tourist when you come in? I well, we have residents, yeah, yeah. So I think you could say look I'm.

29:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I live here, I smuggle laptops for a living, right. I go on this run every week, man. What's the problem for it? No, um, yeah, I don't know. Oh, I also had two speakers. I forgot some of the stuff I had, so it doesn't matter, I brought a lot of stuff I had.

29:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I brought an entire podcast studio to rhode island when I was so I could do a show from there, and I of course got pulled over. Yes, and the guy's looking at he says a microphone. Right, I think he knew who I was because it looks like a pipe bomb. It does look exactly like a pipe bomb.

29:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean it's scary look we had a hub, we had a microphone.

29:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm sorry, go ahead but so he's, he knew before he even went in, this is gonna be a microphone, isn't it? I said yeah, it's a microphone. He said okay, he still looked and pulled it out, but yeah yeah, I think he figured out what was going on. You look like a podcaster kid, yeah I look like a smuggler. Well, I'm glad you made it through with your lenovo yoga slim 7i 15 aura edition so actually that one was delivered to my apartment here.

30:23 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It was waiting for me.

30:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
When we arrived, I got the the date the day before we flew I got five machines and there's one waiting for him, I know the person is man they shipped the thing and I'm thinking, okay, I'll get it, like next week, you know, or this, you know, now this week.

30:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And we got there and the guy said I had a what did he say? Un paquete Waiting for me. So anyway, yeah, yeah. So this is my first experience with the Lunar Lake. Oh, it's a Lunar Lake Neat. So now I have a Lunar Lake and also a Zen 5 laptop to kind of compare. So we'll see, looks pretty. Yeah, it is pretty.

31:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I like the yogas. I've had several yogas.

31:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This one does that thing that I really like too, where it's a large screen I think it's 15-point-something but it does the keyboard in the center, not with the numpad, which I always have trouble with oh God, thank you. Yeah, I love it. So it's a beautiful machine and it is Looks like a Mac. And it is Looks like a Mac, yeah.

31:25 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, this is the thing.

31:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So I'm going to reach out to Ryan and talk to him about this stuff. But we've talked about this a little bit. I was at IFA and where do these things land? And the consensus seems to be that Intel did the anti-Intel thing and this thing is actually really good for portability Because it has performance and efficiency, cores, that kind of thing it's the thing they never really did.

31:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Right, you know. Yeah, they're copying ARM.

31:56 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so you know, assuming reliability is there and everything, it should be pretty good, especially for this sort of you know productivity device. Right, I threw some games on there. I haven't had a chance to run them yet, but I'll compare that to the….

32:11 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And I think when we were doing a show with Mike I talked about I want to build a Copilot plus PC desktop, Can you?

32:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Not yet. Not yet, but it's coming.

32:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They'd have to have whatpilot plus motherboards.

32:24 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, yeah, this, the sticking point is going to be this windows hello ess thing right now. So, oh, to get the spec, you actually you have to have the mpu. Everyone knows that. But yeah, the thing that we don't really talk about that much is all the undercover stuff that has to be happening authentication stuff, all that stuff, right. So you can't plug in an external webcam and it's like okay, well, you don't have windows ess anymore.

32:49 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You need an ess cat caliber camera, but you can buy those.

32:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They are for sale um.

32:55 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Is there not free? It's not free ss.

32:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, not free ss, you right now there's no windows hello camera, but it's not. Yeah, it's just so, but here's the thing, you have a copilot plus pc.

33:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You're like, well, I have to use this webcam, I have to use this whatever device. Um, okay, you're not using windows hello ess anymore, you're just using windows hello, okay. But I mean, I'm still using the computer, so you know, I still get all the features. Yeah, there's no way that what richard wants to do is not going to happen. It's just a matter of timing. So the next step is going to be PC makers selling desktops.

33:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Can you build an Evo computer, for instance?

33:31 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, because to get that spec you have to submit a test to Intel.

33:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's what I'm thinking, is it's more like Evo than it is.

33:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, copilot Plus as a brand is that thing? It's a brand, right, doesn't? You don't get anything special for having an evo computer. Um, when you have a copilot plus pc, you get all those additional ai features, and they just announced a bunch more right, right.

33:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So the os looks at your hardware and says, oh yeah, you're eligible you should be able to get.

33:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I can't imagine they're not going to allow this in some amount of time. Right, we'll see.

34:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well you know them better than I, but it seems to me they would not allow that.

34:09 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But I think well, and I just want to, and I'm obviously thinking it has to be at least after november, when whatever restrictions with qualcomm pass.

34:19 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, but uh well, plus the you're gonna want arrow like you're gonna want the desktop months after the announcements. You want a faster machine. You want a desktop-class chip in there for starters. Lunar Lake is not going to.

34:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The Qualcomm Snapdragon Elite Developer Kit.

34:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
What do I have to do to get you into the Snapdragon today In January?

34:39 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, and one of the things I suggested was that I'd actually build it on the Discord.

34:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, I would love that if you did that. Yeah, oh, my God, I'll host that if you want. I would love that. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, oh yes, here's the kicker.

34:53 - Richard Campbell (Host)
on top of that is, I normally take the old hardware and I give it to a student who needs a machine Right To help them build a machine at the same time. So I've now gotten looped into the local high school where we've moved up to now. So there's a whole conversation going on about actually doing the video production in the school with the students.

35:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, that would be so great, Richard. I think it'd be a lot of fun. Oh, I would kiss you right now if you weren't here.

35:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This has turned into a very strange episode.

35:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I'd love to hear you do it in Ibiza, because the kissing is pretty normal around here.

35:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Everybody's kissing everybody else.

35:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There's been more kissing since I've been here than there has been in the past eight years of my life.

35:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That means you're in a happy place.

35:32 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Anyway, I'm glad you're excited about that, Leo, because I think as much as you'd like to do a video production.

35:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's fun to build a machine and to show these guys how this stuff works, and and we'll spit out a couple of computers in the process, look, and in the end, who cares if you get the copilot, copilot plus features, then or later or never, you're still got this awesome, whatever it is, you know, and it's just I know, I've got an older machine that's I I'm ready to do a teardown on and I'm trying to retire the last of those old rack mount cases and uh, and so then the process I helped set a kid up with a machine who otherwise wouldn't have one.

36:04
Good, on you and we built a good computer, maybe.

36:07 - Richard Campbell (Host)
All this stuff is easy, right, and it beats the hell out of recycling we could do a charity stream or something, maybe.

36:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, yeah, right.

36:16 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't know, we'll figure it out. I see the pieces coming together, but for me it just kills me that I kick hardware out because I need something new, and there's nothing wrong with it.

36:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So can you give it a go? There's also this there's been a lot of artificial kind of hardware requirements in Windows 11, or you know. You get these subtle year over year updates every year. It's like, well, you know what's the big deal. But I do feel like we've crossed some line with these new CPUs where computers have gotten really interesting again.

36:45 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And it might, I don't think in the general public build them it's a good time.

36:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, I think so. It's very interesting like things are changing it's.

36:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's kind of cool well, it's something we did, we would do on tech tv, uh, all the time, and it was very popular. And then, even when we started twit, we, we did, we built the ultimate vr gaming machines. I remember when, when you guys got the Surface Studio that Robert took the hard drive out of it and put the SSD into it, upgraded it. Yeah, people love that, even if it's something. Maybe people don't do that much anymore. It's a great learning, if anything you're at least showing people.

37:19 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This is why you don't do this.

37:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, there's also halfway steps. You could buy like a NUC kit when they made those or whatever other things they have, like that B-bomb or whatever and then buy the components and you're just plugging in M2 cards and some RAM and stuff, but you're still doing your own little thing there. It's kind of cool.

37:36 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And it's all that. Take your time with the, do a little grounding and make sure you build this in the right order. You know, make sure you build this in the right order. I'm very particular about putting thermal paste on to get that thing seen properly. Oh, that's a good one.

37:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I usually just do the whole body. I don't know if you just do your face.

37:52 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You put your thermal paste wherever you need it.

37:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You get like a nice, shiny, glow, the paste in the basket. So good, let's do it, let's plan on that. I love that idea.

38:00 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's something I know our audience would love it's really fun. By the end of the year, okay, that's. You just tell me when I'll, we'll help you.

38:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Good, that's great, it'll be fun. Hey, let's take a pause. That refreshes. Then we can talk about the fact that today the department of justice said, yeah, we want to break up google. Yeah, we just want to break them up. How's that? How would that work, as you just throw it out there.

38:23 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Let's just throw it out there, don't know what pieces.

38:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And that's the thing we came up with. Oh my God, there you go.

38:29 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I was thinking.

38:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Our show. Wow, you're watching Windows Weekly Paul Theriot, richard Campbell. More to come, but first a word from our sponsor. This is a good sponsor for this show. I feel like everybody should be using this product Veeam.

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40:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There are two google things. Okay, tough week for google in court in an antitrust sense.

40:57
So they've lost at least a couple of antitrust cases in the United States, one against Epic, and some months ago the judge in that case went to Epic and said, speaking of fan fiction, why don't you tell me what you'd like to see? And Epic came out with what I did at the time describe as fan fiction. And then the judge said, yeah, let's just do that. So he is basically ordering google for a period of three years to open up the google play store in the android app ecosystem and android, uh, to third parties. Right, and it's a. It is a sweeping series of requirements. It's pretty brutal. Um, it's everything you could dream of, and more is, I guess, the only way to say it you know, I'm not even thinking about the epic store, that's fine.

41:45 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, I'm thinking about steam. Yes, well, this is right. This would be the moment for gabe to make the move into steam. That's right.

41:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Mobile yep, I think we're going to see a lot of these third-party stores. Part of it is they have to open up the google play catalog to these stores so they can display all those apps and games in third-world stores as well. Now, that doesn't mean Google doesn't get paid. We're not trying to. You know you have to give stuff away for three years. That's not really how this works and, of course, google's appealing and there'll be months and years and whatever. We'll see what happens.

42:18 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This is far from done and, like I said, I expect this to be a consent decree in the end, but I don't think they're going to win this App Store thing. I think this net is broken open. I bet you Apple's choked, because if it goes through with Google, it's going to happen to Apple too.

42:29 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's the thing. Once you establish this legal precedent, now people can say, okay, but we won our case. It's not the destruction of a business, right, it doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, that thing. That's, then we have precedent, so we'll see what happens.

42:42
But okay, so I thought that was pretty big, and then this week happened and it was not, yeah, not a new ruling Exactly, but in the broader, the bigger antitrust case against Google for its well, for its search monopoly and advertising and all the stuff that's not into it. They were found guilty are appealing, et cetera. But this judge in that case went to the DOJ and said if you could have anything, what would you ask for? And the DOJ did not leave anything off the table as a possibility. So it's impossible for this not to summon memories of Microsoft, right? It's weird, oh yeah.

43:29 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It seems so similar.

43:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It is so similar. It's literally the same sort of behavior to the same commingling, the same tying of one product. It's. It is the same. Google, of course, has a market, that is I. It's weird to even say this out loud. It may even be 10 times bigger than the market Microsoft was addressing with PCs and Windows back in the late 90s. It's incredible the number of billions of people that this impacts, although you know, I'd say it's, you know, smaller. But so, yeah, I mean this is an interesting conversation and it's only a conversation, because appeals in years and years and we'll see, the judge will come at some point with, uh, you know, his recommendation or his. It will actually be the consent decree. I guess it will be what he determines, what needs to happen.

44:17 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't see this is all break upable really. Yeah, you know, there's only a couple of strategies and that's pretty tough. It's better that they build a consent decree for uh, for like a behavioral type thing you're saying, yeah, yeah, in the end, that's what you want is and you get rid of the anti-monopolistic practices. Yeah this.

44:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This brings out the crazies, this kind of conversation, in a way, because there are people that just don't want anything to happen to these companies. There are the people who are just as crazy on the other side, that wanted to be splintered into five million pieces and spread around the earth, and we, we don't want that, you know we all have well, and it's in the end it's like what harms the customer?

44:53 - Richard Campbell (Host)
right, like this is all sherman act stuff where they're all going back to okay, the customer is being harmed because prices are being driven up, because of the way the innovation has stopped, that you know.

45:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Some of this is intangible.

45:04 - Richard Campbell (Host)
There's a case for all of that.

45:05 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, people have a hard time understanding that if Google did not have this monopoly, how much good stuff could have been happening by a third party? It doesn't guarantee that that happens, but now prices would be lower, there'd be more choice, et cetera, et cetera.

45:17 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So but the but the remedy cannot cause harm in the process.

45:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean, the remedy is probably going to cause harm.

45:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But yes, but ideally. Ideally, you're going to cause harm to Google right.

45:30 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But not anybody else. But that's an interesting point too.

45:41 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So, just to make it simple, when Microsoft was going to be broken up, I believe at the time, the plan, at one time there was ideas about different plans, but the the plan, as I understand it or recall, it was the two companies, right, yeah, the operating system company and the app company.

45:47
I think was just everything else company, yeah um, as a shareholder of that company, you would have received a share in each company, so you'd probably be doing pretty good. You know, that would probably work out. I think from an economy standpoint. Uh, this might actually be seen as a good thing, right? I mean, yeah, dvorak always said this would be great for everybody.

46:05
Right, and I think we face the same situation here If there was some logical split where you say well, look, we have to break the tie between your ad monopoly, which is 70% of Google's earnings revenues, and the things that distribute it and or maintain or extend it. Right, and so what are those things? You know android and chrome and, and you know search, right, I mean. So is there some version of google that exists? That is only some of that. Is there some?

46:34 - Richard Campbell (Host)
search in one can and everything else in the other can.

46:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I kind of wish google would be forced to divest youtube. I feel like that's not that. That's not part of the thing. Here they're really advertising. It's not part of what they discussed.

46:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But it could be, because I don't know this off the top of my head but some percentage of Google's ad revenues come from.

46:54 - Richard Campbell (Host)
YouTube YouTube is primarily an ad-driven business. Well, and there's a strong argument that YouTube is in a monopoly as well. It is virtually impossible to be meaningful in video without being on youtube youtube is the the kleenex of online video.

47:05 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Right it's yeah you know that's the only place, unless you're microsoft I guess, because I'm just not.

47:10 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I mean it's sooner or later the right lawyer, the brad smith of google's going to show up and make it do yeah that guy um?

47:17 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I should know his name, kent walker. Is not that guy? Let me tell you he's still in the belligerent we're going to fight everything. Phase of his career yeah.

47:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Do you think the DAJ is threatening the breakup? Because what they really want them to do is open the search.

47:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yep, yeah, because the real outcome here could be very similar to what happened with Microsoft, where you get a settlement and it doesn't mean it's ideal, it doesn't mean everyone gets want, but if the goal here is to prevent those behaviors from continuing, that was harming competition and hurting innovation and harming consumers. Ultimately, um, there's a version of the end of the story that is, google remains whole and, yeah, emerges about they can have a monopoly.

47:54 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Right, it's okay, yeah well, and here's a distinct difference. You know, when microsoft and nick has said decree basically opened up the source code at Windows to the competitors that were complaining they did not find any. If real networks code Like there was not, I know that's the there was opposite of that. If NSA If badly built software run well Right. The problem, if you open up search and actually expose exactly how the algorithm works, is then the algorithm is destroyed, because now everybody games the algorithm.

48:23
Well, google does too right, Google already does, that's the problem so well and there's not a real question is like if you reveal this, then see that Google is deliberately prioritizing their own things.

48:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What if maybe they say, well, don't open it to the public, but, yeah, open in such a way that duck, duck go and other?

48:40 - Richard Campbell (Host)
companies, interested parties, yeah.

48:42 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And also we get lost in this thing. Part of the argument, part of the thing people need to understand is, it doesn't mean they give it away for free?

48:53
No, not at all. One of the things that I think will be decided in these various regulatory or antitrust cases around mobile app stores is what is reasonable to charge as a fee for whatever. It might be an in-app payment, an app whatever? Yeah, and this would this ties to this as well, because google has created this uh, ip, I guess you know they've created, they have this thing that they own that is worth something. I could imagine many companies wanting to go to them and say, hey, I'd like to start a search service. That's what you do without your hand picking of things. It's just going to be the is going to be the algorithm. I think we'd all like to see what that looked like. I mean, in some ways right. Um, what would a pure version of google search look like? I mean?

49:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
so you said before the show that you wanted to hear what jeff jar had to say. Of course, this is probably topic one right after the show.

49:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This is it. I'm just curious because I have my own history with the Microsoft thing. I have my own opinions, as everyone does Well.

49:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
that's why you have a real standing here, because you've seen it happen once before.

49:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
The Microsoft case has an asterisk because they were going to be broken up. It was judicial misbehavior that prevented that from happening and they settled. And people look back on it now and they're like, oh, microsoft basically won that case. Like no, they did not.

50:11 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They had lost. They lost. There was enough dirt that it was going to get tangled up in. Wow, uh, an appeal. I forgot oh, and but that.

50:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So let's make a deal the facts of that case that was because the judge did something wrong.

50:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, he talked to reporters during the case in badmouth.

50:28 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Microsoft, you're not actually allowed to do that, but it still took two years. Right Like this, stuff doesn't happen fast.

50:36 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, but the point I was trying to make was so they threw out his remedy, they did not throw out his ruling, Everything that he found that Microsoft was guilty of.

50:46 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They are still guilty of that is still a legal record of fact.

50:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It was not taken away. So part of the settlement was you actually have to address that. So Microsoft had the opportunity. I mean they could have tried to settle. They were very belligerent at the time, but Microsoft had the opportunity ahead of time to have more of a say on this. If Google, so far they have not.

51:07
I mentioned Kent Walker, the utterances of this guy, his position on all of these antitrust things, the DMA in Europe, et cetera, is all very Microsoft 1999. He's not learned this lesson, pugnacious. But Google could do what Microsoft didn't and settle by having talks with the DOJ and the states and saying, look, we get it. What, what you know? Will this do it? Will this do it? That sort of thing.

51:34
Google, the judge in Epic v Google, practically begged them and then forced them to have settlements, talk to someone talks which went nowhere because of Google, and so they're still in that place where they're like, well, you know we feel like. You know we built this thing, it's ours, you know you can't take it away from us and it's like, yeah, actually they can. So you might want to start thinking about that and maybe changing your behavior a little bit. So I do think there's a. That's why I want to talk to Jeff my history of this. Whatever is whatever, but in some ways I think there's an opportunity here for Google to kind of do the right thing and emerge in better shape than they might otherwise, and it would benefit anyone out in the world who uses any of their products and services.

52:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing, frankly, if you destroy Google.

52:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean, I don't think anyone's talking about destroying Google, but if they're so belligerent that they're not, they're still taught we haven't done anything wrong. They keep saying this. So you have to unbind those things that allow them to enact that behavior, combine those things that allow them to enact that behavior, so you're going to split up parts of it unless they can settle.

52:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They still have a chance. Stick around, you could join us on Windows Weekly. I mean, this would be.

52:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Google, and I should say too, there's a legal process too. So, aside from settling, I'm sure they're not even thinking of settling right now. They're going to let the legal process play out, the appeal process, see if they can get anything overturned.

53:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And that would be the best outcome. This is years out right, potentially yeah. Part of the problem with this is and it was certainly a problem with Microsoft is sometimes the violating behavior is no longer important in five years, I think in this case it will be because Google's dominance of the ad market is clearly problematic. Yep.

53:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, exactly.

53:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, you want to do the DMA story. Oh sorry.

53:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There was a knock at the door and I thought my wife was picking up a dog. But it's a package, okay, are? You getting a new dog? No, no, no, there's a dog down.

53:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
If you're in Mexico, it should be a chihuahua.

53:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
If we left our door open, the dog would just come in here and sit with me on the couch. The DMA story yeah, so last week we talked about how Germany wants to apply the DMA regulations to all of Microsoft, right? Not just the parts of Microsoft that fall under the DMA, which Windows, obviously, and LinkedIn, what so? Parts of Microsoft that fall under the DMA, which Windows, obviously, and LinkedIn, what so? It's kind of weird. You would think maybe Office would be in there. You could imagine things that might be there. There is a I don't know what to call this a cadre, a group of companies that most of whom I've never heard of personally that have petitioned the EU to rethink its decision not to put edge under the regulatory control of the.

54:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
DMA Is Sleep Near in this list anyway.

54:31 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's you almost. I think they're from Asia. I could be wrong, but I don't know.

54:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, I think they're Scandinavian.

54:36 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh, are they? Oh, then they, okay. So the companies I should have where's this? It's a Vivaldi, which we have heard of. Okay, it's, where is this? It's Vivaldi which we have heard of. Where is this thing?

54:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Water Fox and Wave Box, or is it Wave Fox and Water Box? I don't know.

54:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And then some industry group Based around a letter to the EU that Opera had written earlier, but they're not in this list of companies. The theory here is actually pretty strong. Right, edge has some small amount of market share compared to Google Chrome. We all know that. I think worldwide it might be somewhere around 11% right now. But Microsoft uses Edge as one of its levers in Windows to direct your behavior, and Windows does fall under this DMA. And so if you as a user user or you as a company have chosen to standardize on, let's say, chrome as your web browser, there are certain activities that occur in Windows that always happen in Edge, whether you want them to or not. And as someone who's been complaining about this for years and years, I have to say I don't know who SleepNear is or what these other companies are, but you know it's funny, I just looked it up.

55:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, and we're both right, because the reason I thought it was a scandinavian company is because sleep near is, you know, odin's eight-legged horse. Yes, and the, and the company that, and the company that created is called fenrir, which is also norse mythology, but it was originally created in japanese. Ah, that's so it. I had in my head, it was something it was created by uh yasuyuki kashigawa or kashawagi.

56:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm sorry well, like wavebox I. I looked these companies up when I read that I already knew about what waterfox is, a is a firefox derivative, right? Yeah, uh, waybox, I'm like what, what the waybox there there are? There are third-party browsers that to most normal people would be kind of bizarre, that I know a lot about, like Arc or whatever, or Brave, and they're not. I mean, these are all European companies, so I don't know, but I actually think they have. I think they're correct. I think this is the right thing to do. This is the right thing to do and because Edge is, as Microsoft will tell you, deeply integrated with Windows, they do use it as a way to direct you to other Microsoft services, primarily online services, including advertising, which is what a monopolist does in tying their dominant product to the thing they want to get better, and that's exactly what they're doing. It's the same strategy that they employed with ie back in 1990, whatever. That was five, I guess. So, yeah, I actually I think that should happen.

57:11
I just I wish it was coming from someone I had heard of but it's okay like sleep near, like sleeping there, well, like opera, you know, although opera, like I said, they did kick it off. So yeah, and vivaldi's in there probably.

57:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, they are in there, We've heard of them. We've heard of them. All right, let's take a break now. And then I guess there's still AI to talk about developer stuff, Office or, I'm sorry, Microsoft 365.

57:39 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And, of course, the world famous. It's a booyah base. It's a booyah base of it's a technical booyah base.

57:48 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Uh all coming up, plus and the number one whiskey in the world what could that be?

57:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
now I have to look, no, looking, no, cheating I gotta look.

57:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I don't care how the story ends, I just want to know now.

58:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All right, while Paul is cheating, we will get back with Windows Weekly, paul Thurot and Richard Campbell in just a second. But the show today, this portion of the show, brought to you by Melissa, the data quality expert, since 1985. They've been doing this longer than I have. Whether you need the full white glove service or just the nuts and bolts, melissa is the best for your enterprise and keeping your data clean. Bing I feel like there should be a little bing your data's clean. Melissa now offers transparent pricing for all its services. That's nice because you don't have to guess when you're estimating your business budget.

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G2 continues to recognize Melissa as a leader in data quality and address verification. They just got once again. They got that for summer 2024. And let me reassure you because I know everybody worries about data and security and privacy. Melissa's committed to the security and privacy of all client data in their care through responsible use. I mean they have a 38-year history of establishing and refining their controls to secure data. They are compliant with all the current standards SOC 2, hipaa, hitrust, gdpr. Get started today with 1,000 records clean for free. You'll like what Melissa can do. Go to melissacom slash twit. We thank Melissa so much for supporting Windows Weekly and we thank you for supporting Windows Weekly by using that address melissacom slash twit. Thank you, melissa, for supporting the good works that Paul richard are doing for all of us today. Wow, heavy you make me sound so altruistic.

01:01:12
I well, you kind of are. I mean, this is a money grab, leo, I don't know. Oh, you're only in it for the money. Okay, forget, I said anything, let's talk. Uh, microsoft. Well, can I ask a question from the chat room? I thought this was a really interesting question. Jamie lee curtis asked it too, which kind of made me want to.

01:01:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I was hoping to address the chat room, but go on she's in there, she's on x. She's in a closet hiding from this I'll pop it up for you.

01:01:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Uh, totally random. Always want to know from richard and paul who they rank as their top three CEOs of Microsoft.

01:01:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I've only been three CEOs there's only been three, that was a trick question.

01:01:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All three of them Ballmer, gates and Nadella.

01:01:55 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, that's it. I think we can all agree they were terrible in their own ways, nah, no?

01:02:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
no, okay, thank you, jamie Lee, you and okay, thank you, jamie lee, you know what she's just here to promote halloween 18.

01:02:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's not. Don't worry about it, forget it. I, I. Where did the jamie lee curtis thing come from? Is that that's the name of the?

01:02:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
twitter account, but, as you know, on twitter okay anything, bomber's by far the most fun.

01:02:17 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You know he's the most fun, nadella, I think is easily.

01:02:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, do you think okay?

01:02:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Every one of them is fascinating in their own way, because Gates obviously founded the company and the place to success and took it from nothing to everything.

01:02:30
So he'll always have that. He has some problematic aspects, you're right. But okay, we were just talking about antitrust. Antitrust was when he lost interest in being the CEO of Microsoft, so he became chief science officer and dot net happened and whatever history, it was chief architect, chief architect, software architect, sorry, and um. You know, steve Ballmer is, you know, an accountant. So we have this period of time where really whererosoft is counter as well as not led by an engineer, which is weird, right for a company like which was a problem.

01:03:06 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It definitely you know. You point to the issues with bomber. It was that he wasn't an engineer. But bomber's blessing is that he kept the company together like he got that deal done.

01:03:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
He um tim cook, not an engineer, you know kind of similar. He's done.

01:03:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, he's an though, and these days that's a very important part of it, because Apple's a products company right, it's become a strength for Apple.

01:03:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think, as history gets written and rewritten, I think Steve Ballmer will be looked on kindly, because he was the one who really jump-started the Microsoft we know today with the cloud focus and that kind of thing and they knew he was an impediment to it and got out of the way and he got out of the way.

01:03:44
Sanjay Nadella I told this story last week, but I met him once and I might have told this on the show too. Ward Ralston introduced me to him as part of the server team a million years ago and I shook his hand and said oh good, fresh meat Nice.

01:04:03 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's weird that we've never spoken, since that's what he took over from right when he took over president server and joel's guys.

01:04:08 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's just. You know, not a lot of you journalists I still have a job anyway. Um, but he, he's interesting because he was not interesting. He was kind of this cold, robotic, whatever didn't, but the company you know blew through the roof, the only words.

01:04:25 - Richard Campbell (Host)
When he went to ceo of school, like when he was the bing guy, he was pretty great like he. But when he became ceo remember he had a really tough first year and they sent him to finishing school and he became very stiff for a couple of years, a lot of people I mean terry myerson was like this it's hard you know it's hard to get so hard it's, it's hard.

01:04:43
This is a weird set of skills to have Well and, yeah, to take that much feedback, with that much research behind it and try and get all of that language right, it's not normal.

01:04:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's an engineer. I don't know that. You could take one of his speeches and use the summarize feature in Word and you'd come up with zero words. There would be nothing there, right.

01:05:09
But the thing is he did this when he came in and he's done this now, since where there's a behind-the-scenes part of Della that's not super public yet, where this guy's kind of an assassin actually, yeah, the lynching of the uh steven elop said ripples through the whole company, well, just the whole uh office space scene, where he brings in h team and says what do you do here exactly? And you know, the idea being that they had to justify themselves as a business that could be profitable. They didn't have to be right, but they had some plan for that and they didn't have to be subsidized by windows or whatever else was keeping the company afloat at the time, and they had to make sense within the strategy that was happening under him, which was this cloud computing push. And he's done it again with AI and we've actually seen some of that where he basically said look, you don't have to do this, but you'll be gone if you don't do this. And he's turned into you know, this is slow and steady wins the race.

01:05:58 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And then AI happened and he was like now almost 2K and the argument, the way I've heard it described, is he spent the past few years getting the company honed for the moment he wrote that letter, Okay, Well, I mean. Yeah, I mean that's he was looking for a thing and when the thing appeared he moved the whole company. It happened so abruptly.

01:06:19 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah. Because it's not that he didn't make the thing he found, the thing he found the thing, yep, yeah, and a lot of people, a lot of Microsoft leaders, would naturally not necessarily go toward that thing, right, they want to be the inventors of the thing or whatever. So I think it was good on him. So, yeah, I don't know. I just think it's too early to rate him against the other two.

01:06:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But yeah, let's talk about ai again next year and see where we still don't have product like how, how's it looking? How's that 20 billion looking now?

01:06:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
yeah, this is right, this, you know I've joked about this um licensable moment thing. I mean, I think the mic, the thing microsoft has done the most differently other than just the speed, is trying to monetize it so quickly. Yeah, and it's like guys, it's not ready. You're trying to get customers to spend money. It would be like me spending money on a Game Pass subscription and not getting Activision games. That's crazy it would never happen.

01:07:13 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's not a. Thing.

01:07:13 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's stupid. I don't even know why I said that. Anyway, we'll see. Yeah, you're right, we'll see. I think right, we'll see. I think it's going to be very interesting. It's not optional. There's no argument that works in the boardroom that doesn't involve revenue, right? So you know, of course, the price out there and see who sucks.

01:07:32
I just mean monetize it immediately. Yeah, you know, they went from. Uh, they announced the microsoft 365 co-pilot in march, if I'm not mistaken, and productized it in october. I mean it's, there wasn't a lot there and there's not a lot there now To that point.

01:07:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You actually have a really interesting article on Throtcom in the premium section about Nadella and AI, but yes, the commoditization of AI, which is very interesting.

01:07:57 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This blows my mind. I missed this. Here's the thing. So, over the past 30 daysrosoft has had two major announcements about what they think are called wave two of copilot. Right, there was the commercial version microsoft 365 copilot followed by, I think, 10 days later, the uh, the consumer version. Okay, I paid more attention to the consumer version, frankly, but in I did. It came up just the other day. Someone referenced sachin adela referring to the low, the actual llms, that power, all of their ai as a commodity, and I said, okay, I have to find this and this there's. So this is bizarre. But on the day that microsoft made their wave two announcement for commercial, which I paid less attention to, satya Nadella posted on LinkedIn like one does. I'm going to read the quote, but I'm also going to pause because I have to break this down. This is what I used to do with Steven Stavsky. You have to think about what he's saying as AI becomes more capable and agentic Now pause. Agentic In other capable and agentic Now pause. Agentic, in other words, agent-based.

01:09:08 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Venting that word, yeah, agentic.

01:09:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Hilarious. Okay, what does that mean? So and we touched on this, I think, last week A co-pilot is this thing that helps you do a thing right. You know that it's beside you. An agent is different because it goes off and works on your behalf in the background doing things for you.

01:09:28 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Not proactively.

01:09:29 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You've programmed it, but it's not working with you. It's going to come back at some point and say, hey, I found something so agentic, so we're moving into this Agents, what we used to call background services, part of the wave two. Right, okay, yeah, as now. Okay, as that happens, it models themselves. These are the llms right become more of a commodity. Pause, right there. All right, microsoft has models, of course, but the foundation of this ai push thus far has been open ai's models, the chat, gp models.

01:10:01
Right, he just said that our biggest partner, well, one of our biggest partners, this thing we've invested what is it? $11, $13 billion in $13. Has had slightly a rough, weird year with dramatic comings and goings of people, lots of weird churn. It triggered them starting their own Microsoft AI business with Suleiman and the people from Inflection, et cetera, et cetera. If you're at OpenAI, if you're Sam Altman and you read this which you would have, or someone would have certainly put it in front of you that is almost a declaration of war. It's a shot across the bow, right? What you're saying is this company that triggered Microsoft becoming a completely different company. The thing we just talked about is now a commodity. It's not even two years in.

01:10:55 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Part of this is the fact that the OpenAI interface works across multiple models, including ones not made by OpenAI. You can plug Lama in through the same interface.

01:11:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But I also think you're right If you spend time in that AI studio.

01:11:07 - Richard Campbell (Host)
There's like a thousand models in there.

01:11:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
All right, let me yeah Just call to any of them.

01:11:12
You're right, and but yeah. So the other thing that's happening concurrently to this is Microsoft's not the only one that reacted to ChatGPT-4. Google has been doing this all along. Google, I think, is going to be the turtle that wins this race eventually. But whatever, google, microsoft, openai, apple, now Amazon, right, and then a hundred small second tier companies we don't need to name are all racing to get this stuff to be on par or better than the others. We've very quickly reached the point where we have alternatives in an LLM market that two years ago, was so impossible to even play in because of the expense of building out the infrastructure and the size of the data that one would need to deliver something that made any sense whatsoever. That's how fast this market has moved right. That Microsoft not this second, but he is saying they are and will do it could just flip a switch and move over to something that's better anytime they want to or anytime they can't right this is like I said declaration of war.

01:12:12
Because commodity, because commodity. So he continues, all value gets created by how you and here he means Microsoft, but how one? You, microsoft, steer ground and fine-tune those models with your business data and workflow. So actually there, I'm sorry it was custom business customers who, by the way, are not allowing their business data to go anywhere near this ai, which is the same response, but what is? But when one steers grounds and fine-tunes models, that's what microsoft's doing, right, that's, that's's Microsoft as the intermediary right.

01:12:45 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, microsoft, arguably, has been in the business of tooling since day one. There you go. Yeah, they're good at it. Actually, you make the dev tool for the language, that's right.

01:12:54 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So we are the look. We may use this thing on the back end, but you don't have to actually worry what we're using on the back end, because we're going to use the best thing we can. It might not be the same thing in six months or a year, but what you will know, as our customer, is that the thing you're doing will always be the best it can be, because we are steering, grounding and fine-tuning these models ourselves, right, um? And then it says how they get, how they compose with the ui layer of human to AI to human interaction. So this is the co-pilot agent. You know, whatever it is, ui, the interaction that one would have as a user, I guess, with the AI, which is, you know, we don't really talk about clicking on buttons in a, you know, a window or something.

01:13:38
That's really what he's talking about here. It's like the way that this thing works and a lot of this stuff is going to be backend services. You know, good morning, here's your daily summary, here's your email summary, here's your meeting. So you know it's gonna be that kind of stuff. I I'm sorry, but we are not even two years into this and he has just declared that this thing, that is the most crazy computer advanced possibly in history.

01:14:02 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Is a commodity like I it's, it is state, it's table stakes, it's what everyone has and it's great positioning for undermining the value of the engine versus the value of the interface yep, it's I.

01:14:17 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I find this incredible and I missed it when he first said this I didn't even know what happened.

01:14:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And it also makes sense from a point of view of if the tooling part was easy, OpenAI would be leading Right. Where they stumble is on all the tooling problems.

01:14:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This has come up so many times on this podcast, but we live in this era where we could wake up any day and something insane has happened in AI. I mean, we live in a world where something insane could happen anywhere. I know that, yeah, but in ai, you know, we saw the google. So google has a notebook l lm tool that will take any content and then turn it into a realistic sounding podcast with two people bantering together it sounds exactly like this show actually it's incredible.

01:15:03
I took it. It has all the little like they speak over each other a little bit, they laugh at jokes, they do whatever. Yeah, I so I like. Okay, I need some. You know, I'm just like you know, open ai or microsoft. I need a lot of data.

01:15:14
So I found a steven sanovsky blog post from 2012. It's 8 000 words and I threw it into this thing and I created a it. I didn't do anything. I created a little video where I stole the content it created and I published it. And it is two people, it's two AIs that sound like people and it sounds real and they're talking normally.

01:15:34
The only I mean the one thing you'll notice up top of this thing is that they refer it's about Windows on ARM, the initial push, and so they refer to that as arm instead of arm, you know. So they keep right arm, um and that's, but at the is. You know, it's actually not at the top of it. So if it's somewhere in my forums, I've published it, but you can also find it on our website. So if I mean I'm sorry, our youtube site. So if you go to youtubecom slash, you know, at sign throughout com, you'll see it. It's somewhere near the top, but it is incredible, like it's incredible.

01:16:06
So that's Google. You know, a couple of months ago it was open AI coming out with that natural sounding voice thing and the conversational bed and you know, microsoft has. You know, they're doing the same thing. I mean, they're doing the same things and talk about commodity. You know, one of the things I brought up, probably last week or two weeks ago, is this notion of I was paying for copilot pro because of the image stuff mostly, and that's actually free now. You know, yeah, um to the quality and style that I wanted I've talked about this a few times.

01:16:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It is a commodity in the sense that it's crazy. The fund foundational, foundational papers for ai. Yes, uh, there's only a handful of them, and they're, and they're open, they're well known. In fact, one of the authors, jeffrey hinton, just got the nobel. Peace, nobel prize.

01:16:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So there's a book out now which is interesting for which?

01:17:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
physics, physics, and then for chemistry, uh another, uh ai guy medicine for deep mind uh, yeah, was it medicine for dimus? Yeah medicine?

01:17:13 - Richard Campbell (Host)
yeah, because the deep mind alpha fold has transformed that's what they're talking about is protein. They entered the competition like six years ago it's every two years, yeah and the first year was one team using it and they outdid everybody by a mile. The second year there was like six teams using it. Now everybody uses it.

01:17:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's kind of amazing. But that really underlines what you're saying. It is a commodity. Nobody really has an advantage here. These things have been invented and now we're all using them.

01:17:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
If you're freaking out or actually you guys both will just want to read this because it's incredible. But if you're freaking out about ai, very instructive. There's a book out called ai snake oil. Uh, that just came out. I want to see. Is it, though? Is it snake oil?

01:17:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
is it no, no, no, no, no, no, worry about the title I mean, I'm just saying the content of the book.

01:17:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You're going to want to read this because it explains every question anyone has about AI is explained in this book and it's really, really well done.

01:18:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, it's really, really. Ai is one of those technologies. You know where we can all discuss three nanometer processes and you know and how an operating system works, but when it gets to AI, nobody really knows how this stuff works.

01:18:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Arthur C Clark was the? Or is it Asimov who said?

01:18:26 - Richard Campbell (Host)
you know if it's magic right.

01:18:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And AI look a lot of. It's stupid, you know, but you do have those moments right when the OpenAI mini demo of the automatically created videos from a prompt where that's magic. You see that and you're like, oh my God, and yes, you'll see, like, oh, look, there's a little mistake here. Whatever it is, but still it's you. There are way more of those moments now, um, than there were with, like the internet or whatever you know it's.

01:18:53 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's amazing argue that the problem we have with ai is all the science fiction that's distorted our minds. Yeah, yeah, you, you project exactly, but that problems are projected to it anyway.

01:19:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Nail, then you throw in 60 years of movie making, but that's what we really think of it as. Yeah, they have a whole uh, it looks like a medium page based on ai snake snake oil.

01:19:14 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Okay, I just ordered it for the kindle. Yeah yeah, you'll love it, I, I, and it's not it's not so much about september 24th, it's not like an opinion piece.

01:19:23 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's just where did this stuff come from? And they go back and they find a lot of this technology dates back almost 40 years.

01:19:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, oh yeah. I mean that's what Hinton won a Nobel Prize for is neural networks. I mean, this stuff's been around forever.

01:19:38 - Richard Campbell (Host)
His paper on back propagation is from 1986. Yeah Right, Like it's old. It just couldn't be done with the hardware at the time and it was his students, including Susquehara, that implemented it in 2012 for the ImageNet competition and blew the whole thing up.

01:19:54 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Right. So one of the big breakthroughs came from Google DeepMind and it might have just been Google at the time, whatever it was, but basically it was just a force like approach to solving this problem. So they had this AI breakthrough and they were like, well, we can't, you know, this is not viable as a as a product. It's like, you know, we, we threw every resource we had at it and we it added one in one, you know like but but it provided the information that all the people that came out of that and then went to these other companies used as the basis for their later contributions.

01:20:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, good news. Somebody who's listening to the show earlier said I miss those audible recommendations. You guys. Oh, there you go. Audible no longer is advertising, but AI snake oil is available at audible.

01:20:40 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's an audible.

01:20:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, Nine hours, See that's. I wish I could read books, but I know I go to sleep.

01:20:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I have the tight. Well, I find it hard just to have the time I yeah you know I would argue I cannot listen for nine hours.

01:20:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I will read that book faster than that.

01:20:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah Well, it's a lot faster to read a lot faster to read.

01:21:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, because my opportunity like maybe I'm going for a walk, going to the gym shaving and stuff, you know I, I but it competes with podcasts, uh, and music actually and yeah, it just gets lost in the mix, whereas I dedicate time to reading every single day.

01:21:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I I'll just. I have so many books I want to read. I I couldn't finish all the books I want to read.

01:21:20 - Richard Campbell (Host)
If I listen, 24, it's all about airplanes for me, right.

01:21:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You're lucky, 400 hours a year you can get through a lot of books. That's a lot of books. It's good. I will read this. That sounds….

01:21:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think you're both going to love it.

01:21:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
AI snake oil.

01:21:33 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I don't want it to…. It's not an opinion piece. It's an examination of how it all came.

01:21:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What artificial intelligence can do what it can't. How to tell the difference? Published by Princeton University Press, arvind Narayan and Saish.

01:21:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Kapoor are the authors. They're not Joe Rogan types. They're not just asking questions.

01:21:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah.

01:21:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm just asking, I'm just asking questions Interesting?

01:22:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, where are we Now? I'm all lost. I'm just asking questions Interesting. Yeah, where are we Now? I'm all lost, all right, so yesterday we go from the Dark.

01:22:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Sasha, sorry to OneDrive. Onedrive, you know they had this big event yesterday OneDrive Wave. Whatever, who cares, they're using AI of course they had an event. I didn't even know, I know I knew it. I didn't even know, I know I knew it. I couldn't see it. They screwed up the live stream.

01:22:25
It was unbelievable yeah, so there's commercial and consumer stuff. Obviously a lot of the Microsoft 365 co-op pilot stuff. You know OneDrive is the obvious place for that. But for consumers, the big thing is fixing search, fixing the mobile client, by the way, to be what it should have always been, which is just for your photos Right, back up your photos, do stuff with your photos, smart. So that's good. They're adding colored folders in File Explorer.

01:22:52 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So that's fine.

01:22:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No word yet on if they're going to get rid of the insertification of auto-forcing folder backup on you yet. But you know, maybe we can dream.

01:23:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Hey, onedrive is your gateway to seamlessly managing files, photos and memories across work on and everywhere in between, don't you know? Yeah, it's a gateway. All right, it's a gateway.

01:23:11 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You want to talk about fussing. Talk about how many apps on my new pixel phone nine complain that I've turned on notifications for them. Oh, isn't that annoying it's crazy.

01:23:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They shouldn't be allowed to even even ask.

01:23:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, when you buy a new phone, like you just did, do you do a clean install or do you actually recover? I do the migrate, you do. Yeah, that's what most people do. I almost always do a clean install and then I spend two months dealing with what you just described of some kind, you still have to deal with it.

01:23:47 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You still have to log into each app and none of the none of your your settings have carried across for each app, so you're still adjusting all of that. This is. The only thing I can say is that the authenticators move across, except for you know, if you're using the google authenticator, all your google apps are broken, and if you're using the microsoft authenticator, all the microsoft apps are broken, but everything else is fine the google authenticator is nice because it syncs, but the the Microsoft Authenticator you have to have for your Microsoft stuff.

01:24:04
It's just you have to have it. It does backup, restore. You have to individually go through each Microsoft product.

01:24:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It has to be reset. I'm at accountmicrosoftcom for two hours going through it.

01:24:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is that true on iPhone as well?

01:24:17 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, it's the same, I will say, if you're an Apple guy, because this has been the year Paul apologizes for Apple, apparently Well, there's something about Apple, because Apple does iCloud and then Apple, which you know. These are the companies.

01:24:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They also have a centralized notification.

01:24:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, but they also have said because of the way they do apps. Other companies that are Apple you know, apple followers kind of do the same thing. So if you're an Apple guy, you could install an app and have all your stuff just be there automatically, like that's more common. I feel like this should be a standard that, regardless of the platform desktop or mobile that you should be able to do what Richard described.

01:24:54
It's a problem, like I can automate my app installs on new laptops, which I do with Windget, which is awesome when I use the configuration of those apps and I actually have some folders of configurations that I literally copy over. I have scripts I write that copy them to where that app is after it's installed, because I hate going through the process of manually configuring them but you still have to sign in. It's a pain. This is a problem that I feel is solvable but has never been solved. Anyway, onedrive is not solving that problem, thank you very much, but they're adding new storage tiers so you can buy 5 terabyte or 10 terabyte storage tiers. Oh, okay.

01:25:38 - Richard Campbell (Host)
If you have 10 terabytes of stuff, you have too much stuff, you have a problem. Yeah. If you have 10 terabytes of stuff, you have too much stuff, you have a problem, yeah.

01:25:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You should be on a TV show on the Bravo station where people go through your digital files.

01:25:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Digital hoarders. Digital hoarders that would be a fun show. You guys should host that. It would be so much fun.

01:25:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, I mean, it's just you know what you don't get. Is this snake coming out from the bottom of the pile or whatever? No, but I can see some people saying what.

01:26:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Throw that out, get rid of that. What is that why?

01:26:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
are you doing that? Why do you have a scanned Circuit City ad from?

01:26:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
1999? Very funny. Oh boy, yeah All right, anyway.

01:26:15 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Okay, so that's happened or is happening. Net 9, release of Candidate 2, right on schedule release candidate to write on schedule. No new features. Um, so you know, for me wpf that's not getting fixed. I mean, I kind of knew that, but I, you know, I hold out hope every milestone, maybe, maybe no. So they did the thing they did in may and that was the end of that. So fine, I don't care, you care, I don't care. Uh, and then, just randomly, because that's what this section is, uh, microsoft issued the last software update for its surface duo dual screen android device today oh, it's so sad.

01:26:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We hardly knew you. Surface duo, that was the phone that, yeah it wasn't a phone, leo. They were very clear about that maybe that was I mean it was obviously a phone, but Maybe they should have admitted it was a phone.

01:27:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They released exactly one Android version upgrade. That's shameful, I know.

01:27:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
How long was that thing out? Four years, five years.

01:27:13 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This is three years from Surface Duo 2, which is what I'm talking about. Sorry, it's four years since Surface Duo 1. Okay, no, sorry, sorry, sorry. Four years Four. Surface Duo 1. Okay, no, sorry, sorry, sorry. Four years, four or five years, I don't remember. Yeah, somewhere in there it's been a long time. It has been a long time. Yeah, so it's Surface Duo 2. Both of these versions are on Android 12 L. I know they're three years old, Guys come on. They did not care about this non-phone.

01:27:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It was an ARPAN.

01:27:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Which is too bad, because it was real. I really liked it.

01:27:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It was kind of fun. It was obviously a stepping stone to a folding screen device. I just knew it was a mistake. I think there was, and maybe still is, a place in the world for Surface-branded devices that run Android. I could imagine a Surface Pro alike, or a Surface Pro I guess they call it that ran Android. I could see this. Right, yeah, and they I don't know, you know running Microsoft 365 apps and services. Right, why not? Why not? I don't know, they don't do it, so here we are Such an endless call.

01:28:23 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You're not even talking about the duo. You're talking about the duo to do it too right?

01:28:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
sorry about that, yeah remember this it was fifteen hundred dollars when it was new, and what man would have you know, both mary jo and I bought the first. I know, I just that was a weird one for her, because I I was like I'm like, what are you doing? You know, I have to see it, I have to see it, you know? No, I want to do stuff, like I'm like what are you doing?

01:28:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I have to see it. I have to see it. She doesn't usually do stuff like that. I really liked it. I can't remember if. I got the two and then turned that back in too. I think I might have Right. I really kept hope alive.

01:28:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think by the well, even by the first one, probably. They had, you know, Samsung had their folding devices. They started with the big, you know the tall one, and you know, I know, there were problems in the beginning, but they were clearly going to be solved. And I just a two screen device to now, today, doesn't make a lot of sense unless you have like a folding thing inside. Then you know one on the outside, which is what the fold, that's the pixel fold. Yeah, pixel fold does that as well.

01:29:16
Yeah, yep and the samsung oh, they all do, they all do, yeah, they all do. It's a good, you know, it's a whatever. It's a screen everywhere.

01:29:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All right, let's pause Xbox coming up. The best number one selling whiskey in the world, not number one selling Number one rate, not the best, just the number one selling Best is a funny concept. Whiskey in the world Coming up. Paul Thorat, richard Campbell, you're watching Windows Weekly, the show brought to you today by 1Password. We talked about a company for a long time called Collide and 1Password acquired them, and now they've put the two together. They've made this incredible peanut butter and jelly sandwich. They call 1Password Extended Access Management management.

01:30:03
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01:31:59
Check it out at 1passwordcom slash windowsweekly. That's the number one. P-a-s-s-w-o-r-dcom slash windowsweekly. Great idea from 1Password. I think you're going to be interested and we thank you so much for supporting Windows Weekly by going to 1passwordcom slash windowsweekly. Back to the show. Now we give paul thorat the stage, because it's time for the long-awaited, much-loved xbox segment. I have xbox d. I have shocking wait a minute, he's got it.

01:32:37 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
He's got it, yeah the backwards, but not Halo. I don't have anything bad to say about Xbox this week and I even have two Xbox-related back-of-the-book entries. What Tip and Both for both of you, I know. Is this a live performance?

01:32:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yes, it's a small audience but enthusiastic.

01:33:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, well, there you go. That's the Halo audience. Yeah, so there were rumors of this a couple years ago and then a couple years before that, but Microsoft revealed in a very convoluted way that they are shifting Halo to the Unreal Engine 5. Shifting, uh, halo to the unreal engine 5? Um, they were using their own in-house rendering engine previous to this. This was a huge problem because they had to maintain it, keep it up to date, support it, make sure it was set, all the features all the big guys had, and then they would hire people and no one knew how to use it. So, so they'd have to spend time and money training those people on the engine. Yeah, don't build your own engine, it's a mistake. Yep, and okay to do a proof of concept.

01:33:51
They created a project. It's not a game, it's not going to turn into a game. But they basically just recreated Halo worlds and environments, I should say, and characters and vehicles and things, and damn, it looks good. And this has come up a bunch. But Leo and I live covered an event where they announced Halo Infinite, the current game, and it looked like an 8-bit Super NES port. It was like the saddest looking and I thought what they were going to do was that thing at the beginning of the Wizard of Oz, where it's in black and white, and then it turns into glorious color and I thought it was going to go into glorious 4K.

01:34:32
Yeah. Then it ended and I said I mean, couldn't the original id engine from Quake do this Like what is happening here? So it got better. You know they delayed it a year and whatever, but they then spent the next year and a half kind of drip dripping out the features that are all we're supposed to ship in the beginning. But this thing you got to look look at this video. It's awesome.

01:34:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Unreal engine is, let's face it, really really unbelievably the best. Yeah, yeah, unbelievable now shall I, shall I?

01:35:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
let me play a little bit. Yeah, play a little bit. Um, yeah, go back. You have to dive into it to find the scenes from the environments and stuff. But uh, and just I'll say, while you're looking for that as part of this, you know, obviously with halo it's sort of like star wars. We have these different eras and we have the bungee era and we have the 343 era. Uh, if we were to take a vote, I think we'd all agree the bungee era was a little bit better um, so this is a behind the scenes kind of thing.

01:35:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, look at that whole that's, this is unreal engine. That's unreal it looks real yeah yeah I love the light blooms. Holy moly, yep. So I guess they've got the, the, the artwork and then they're showing how they rendered it. Wow, this is amazing. Oh, halo never looks so good, I know.

01:35:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I want to jump in that this is only part of the problem with Halo, right.

01:35:54 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, you have to have a good game, but you want to modernize the engine or get a modernized engine.

01:35:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
In this case, I guess it has to look good for starters, and so this looks good. You know it looks good. Yeah, so nice they are not. They're not ready, it's not coming out anytime soon, but they're working on multiple halo titles. Um, they are actively hiring. By the way, in sharp contrast to the rest of the video game industry, they've renamed the studio from three 44, three 43 industries to halo studios. They should call it three 44. That would be fun.

01:36:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Like Steve jobs, it's what's next, one more, it's one better.

01:36:31 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Um to me the problem with halo wasn't so much how it looks. Cause halo, if it looks pretty good, it's fine. Uh, it's that it's boring, and the same old thing over and over again at least it's pretty.

01:36:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
If you're going to be boring, be pretty.

01:36:46 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, I referred to it as a cure for a video game addiction um it certainly worked for me so it's like the patch, but for video games um, so yeah, I mean they have to get story right.

01:36:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They have to. You know, we'll see what they do, but they've been on this real monolithic path for a long time and I think it's fair to say you know Halo 4 or 5 and now Infinite. You know, like not great. So we'll see what they come up with, but I mean looks great.

01:37:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It'll look good. It's going to look good. It'll look good. You know what else looks good?

01:37:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
flight sim looks good yeah, is that that's not unreal engine, though that's its own. I thought that's a good question. It's a good engine, whatever it is. Now you're gonna have to have a really serious computer to play this effectively. So, um, they are. They're kind of dribbling out details about this game which is coming coming out in November, right End of November. So they're going to have what they're calling a technical alpha, because Microsoft can't name anything for PC. And let me see if I can find the specs on this thing. I mean, for this thing to work, you have to literally submit your DXDAG file.

01:38:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
If anyone's not heard of this, wow, your DirectX settings and diagnostics to literally submit your dxdiag file. If anyone's not heard of this, if you wow your direct x settings, yeah so it's been a while since I've uh run this.

01:38:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So if you do like windows key r and type in dxdiag, it's the direct x diagnostic tool, I guess dx dxdiag, I guess and it scans your system and it tells you how powerful it is and you can save all the information. You have to send this to them and they will determine whether or not you can play this game.

01:38:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We'll be the judge you qualify.

01:38:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think they're gonna get a lot of nose. You know, I can tell you that my Snapdragon X it made a laughing sound when I submitted it, but yeah, so we talked about this whenever they first announced this. Some ridiculous number, like I think it was, that was a 4000x, some stupid like impossible number, more detailed than the previous game, which by the way awesome, you know it still does um and so we'll see, but, and you can get out of your plane and walk around, right?

01:39:02
yeah, I know it's crazy they're rendering every individual grain of dirt and sand and rock and plate of grass and it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of, but it sounds great doing it.

01:39:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So here we go sounds great. I don't actually want to be in the plane, I just want to fly somewhere and get out and walk around I, yeah, I want to stand on it when it's flying, like those guys oh that'd be cool.

01:39:21 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They'd all stand on the biplane and do the Go-Go's thing.

01:39:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
All right, what else we got? So that's good news. I guess you know. Whatever it's going to be awesome. Red Dead Redemption, which people might remember was one of the great Xbox games 200 years ago. When did that come out?

01:39:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Like 2010, something like that A long years ago. When did that come out like 2010, something like?

01:39:44 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
that long time ago. It lasted a long time, though, I mean they had a lot, oh no, it's honestly it's still a great game today, so it's going to. This is a red everett option two right.

01:39:52
Yes, yeah, yeah so they're, they're bringing it to the pc, which is really interesting. Um, I think this might be part of a broader. Actually, the next, uh. Actually I left a story out here. Okay, I'll add this other story but be part of a broader. Actually, I left a story out here. Okay, I'll add this other story, but as part of their bringing Xbox to more platforms kind of strategy, right? So it's interesting to me that we're looking into this is Rockstar, not Microsoft, but I mean that maybe this is part of a thing. Maybe Microsoft is talking to these guys saying, hey, we have an idea, how hard is it? I mean, microsoft is talking to these guys say, hey, uh, we have an idea, how hard is it? I mean, the xbox is not an intel.

01:40:32
You know what I process actually it's amd, so it is it's like it's, oh, it's an x86, yeah, so I don't know like that hard. I see things like, for example, alien isolation, which is about to get a sequel. Finally, right is on the ipad. So that's clearly a port of whatever original pc slash, whatever it was, I don't know. So I mean, I feel like this we've gotten to the point where devices are so powerful that this stuff is easier, I guess I. I mean, anyway, obviously the pc can handle this.

01:40:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean, look at it, it looks like an xbox game really I mean it does yeah, yeah it has that it's not, yeah, but, but you know should be able to handle this, no problem, sure it's cool and I think it'll it looks like an Xbox game.

01:41:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Really it does. Yeah, yeah, it has that. It's not, but, you know, should be able to handle this no problem.

01:41:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Sure, it's cool and I think it'll be more fun on a PC.

01:41:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But they're going to support like super widescreen aspect ratios, hdr10. You know they're going to do all the. You know the FreeSync stuff and you know great why not good, so that's fun. Uh, microsoft, I don't know if this is real or official. I didn't link to it. I apologize, but uh, it looks like diablo 4 is going to be the first game ported to the ps5 that will be upscaled and have all the ps5 goodness as well. I guess I missed that somehow, but that happened this week as well. So that's happening. And oh, no, there it is. I'm sorry it is there. Oh, I had it. I'm sorry it is there. Oh, I had it. I'm sorry, it is in the notes. Yeah, so I thought I skipped it.

01:41:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Sorry, this means there is work going on inside of Blizzard. Yep, yep.

01:41:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
People love the new DLC for Diablo.

01:41:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It has an awesome name to it. Do you remember the name I?

01:41:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
can't remember the name. No, I can't have a PC like that.

01:42:06 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, I've dated, that woman, so yeah, anyway, that's good. So it's all good stuff.

01:42:15 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And after that I have more good news.

01:42:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
In fact, I have even better news for video game fans.

01:42:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, coming up After the break, after the break, oh, you don't get this much anymore, leo, it's usually just you know everything stinks.

01:42:31 - Richard Campbell (Host)
He knows a throw when he sees one. Yeah, he's good for it.

01:42:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He's good, all right, yes, plus something we've been teasing all show long the number one selling whiskey in the world Not number one selling whiskey in the world not number one selling, not number one selling, no number one something yeah number, we'll have won the award for the best whiskey in the world the best whiskey, not the best selling, no, just the best, that's a crazy aculate.

01:42:54 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But okay, yeah, no, it's we could.

01:42:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We'll debate the award, but wait till you see the whiskey all right, I look forward to that coming up back of the book. You're watching windows weekly paul thorat, richard campbell. If you like this show, I hope you do, I think you do. If you've you're still here, you must. Uh, here we are an hour and a half in. Uh. Can I ask a favor? I'd like you to join the club and support this show and all the shows we do, support the team, the staff, the wonderful people that bring it to you by joining the club. It's only seven bucks a month. It's nothing, that's nothing, but the benefits are great. You get ad free versions of all the shows. You get access to the club twit, discord, uh offer not available in russia and turkey, but everywhere else. You get access to the club to a discord. You get to see the behind the scenes stuff we're going to do like the build your own PC segment the rich is going to do coming up sometime later this year. We also have Micah's crafting corner coming up this week. Stacy's book club.

01:43:56
Next week, or actually next week, is coffee. We're going to do another coffee episode with the coffee geek, mark Prince. This one we're going to cover beans, coffee beans. There is as much going into coffee beans, as there is wine and whiskey. This is a connoisseur's episode coming up. All of this for just seven bucks a month. All you have to do is go to twittv, slash club twit. We would love you to join. Oh, by the way, if you're already a club member and you're seeing this, tell a friend. You get a free month for every person you refer. That's our new referral program. That's fantastic. That means you could be, you know it could be free. Just tell 12 friends, that's all, and it helps us a lot because it spreads the word twittv, slash club twit. This episode quite literally brought to you by cashfly. You hear me say it all the time on every show.

01:44:49
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01:45:56
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01:47:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So technically I have three more audible picks, if you want that okay, we'll take it, but first, there's a long awaited sequel to the game Stalker.

01:47:32
Stalker 2 is coming out in November. It looks awesome. But they made a documentary about the making of the games because these folks are in Ukraine and between the pandemic and the Russian invasion and just life. It's been a horrific time for them. And this story is incredible. They actually take the team into the Chernobyl exclusion zone and walk around in there.

01:47:57
So I one of my weird like I'm into, I'm super interested in certain things for some reason, but Chernobyl has always fascinated me. There was a documentary I'd watched about Chernobyl, maybe three, four years ago, and talking about like animal life has flourished, but just the whole post-apocalyptic thing. You walk in the classrooms and the houses and it's all. Trees are going through the floor, all that. So this has all that. It's possibly the best of those types of documentaries. So so this has all that. It's possibly the best of those types of documentaries. So there's the making of the video game, the history that's occurring, the history that occurred that influenced the first game. I showed my wife the trailer and she's going to watch it with me again. So I think it's something that might be of interest to non-gamers as well.

01:48:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So what era is this? This is a long time ago.

01:48:42 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, so the original game is from, I want to say, 15 years ago, ish 2007, something like. So it looks like pretty old yeah but when you look at the new game it's. I mean, it's just like that halo thing. It's just modern and gorgeous, crazy, it looks awesome. But aside from the game, which is probably going to be great, just the I'm just talking about the documentary. It's free, it's on youtube, um, it is yeah, I'm like we're watching it right now yeah, it's awesome the making of stalker 2.

01:49:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yep, cool so there's that um.

01:49:12 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Concurrent with this, uh, that book that I think I mentioned earlier, jason schreier has written play nice, which is the history of blizzard entertainment, and this one's fascinating to me. I I found out after the fact that he's written two other books which I also own and loved and have recommended in the past. So he wrote Blood Sweat and Pixels the history of the video game industry, or how video games are made.

01:49:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, yeah, I have that one. Yeah, that's great.

01:49:35 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
And Press Reset, ruin and Recovery in the Video Game Industry. So he speaks to over 300 former and current Blizzard employees to get this kind of full history. It's astonishing, like it's amazing. And these guys, like me basically, are like I just want to make video games and they good connections and got into the business. We're doing contract video games. Of course they want to make their own video games and they come up with Warcraft, you know, and then Diablo and then World of Warcraft, which is the thing that shot them through the roof.

01:50:06
But they merged or were acquired by Activision and became Activision Blizzard. So there's that whole story but there's this stuff that happens Before. Then they were owned by Vivendi, which almost went out of business, and they were sold to this company that had all this financial mismanagement and were sued by the SAC and almost went out of business and all this stuff. It's a crazy story but it goes right up through Microsoft acquiring that company. Obviously at the end of last year I kind of hoped it was a little bit more about the Microsoft stuff that I'm dying to know, but the whole downfall under Bobby Kotick and Activision is it's unbelievable. It's a crazy story and story and it's on audible if you want to. You know nice, listen to it.

01:50:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Good recommendation. Yeah, it's great and an app of the week.

01:50:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh, yeah, that too. So, uh, brad, my friend Brad, my buddy Brad, uh, they just can't actually, my buddy Brad, actually, this is one I'm really excited to use. In fact I'm excited to use it for Hands on Windows, the other Twit podcast that I do because it's a product called Multiplicity which they've not updated in a long time, and now they've got a major version coming out of Multiplicity 4, which is available in beta 1 form now. It's a software KVM, so a keyboard and video mouse solution. Yeah, it looks, looks really, really good. So for people who have multiple computers they want to access, but you know, have the one what look I, I'm uncoordinated. Maybe it's a dexterity problem, but if I have two systems in front of me with two keyboards and two mice, I'm always touching the wrong one and this is constant. I can't not do it. So this is very attractive to me and it's not there today in beta one, but by the time this thing ships, later this year there will be a native version for arm as well.

01:51:48 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Nice, yeah, something to look at this is this is a way to plug in that dev device.

01:51:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm never gonna get yes, exactly right exactly, don't dedicate a mouse and a well, a mouse, a screen or a keyboard, right? Yeah, it's beautiful right?

01:51:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
yep, so exciting, all right very nice, moving right along time for richard campbell and uh, should we kick things off with a run as radio pick?

01:52:13 - Richard Campbell (Host)
yeah, this week's show I did with doug finke or talked a bit about open ai and powershell, so kind of came into a two-part conversation because the first part was using open-end technologies like ChatGPT and GitHub Copilot to write better PowerShell and Doug talked about getting into things like Pester, the testing framework for PowerShell, which he learned working through Copilot. Like that it literally led him down the path of how to write more testable PowerShell and to make that part of his build process. So the quality of his PowerShell dramatically better. But he's also got a library now that allows that calls into the OpenAI API so his PowerShell scripts are interactive with full language. So instead of having you know press one for this, press two for that, you have much more better communication inside of your PowerShell script using OpenANL in the backend. Nice, it was very fun, cool conversation and interesting stuff.

01:53:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I like his picture. It's a little different than the usual pictures you have.

01:53:16 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, he's got a cartoon picture done of him. But he said can I use that? Awesome?

01:53:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm going to 8-bitify it it so that's how it turned out. I love it, thank you. Yes, a little different, all right. What could possibly be the best whiskey of the?

01:53:33 - Richard Campbell (Host)
year. I mean generally speaking. I'm not big on whiskey awards because they you know, I've done enough award programs with my own business to know perfectly well how manipulable they all are. However, the san francisco world spirit competition is one of the oldest running anywhere in the world. It is as far as which competitions go, they are pretty dang legit. And this year's winner is for the.

01:54:00
The number one spirit in the world is a Talisker, which is very unusual. They haven't won a major award in a decade. The Talisker 45-year-old Glacial Edge. So this surprises me too, because old whiskeys tend not to win this sort of thing, right? You normally you rarely get a 12, it'll 12, it'll be an 18 or a 20. But a 45 is pretty darn rare. Now this is a Diageo product and it's the link I've provided is actually to the Diageo rare and exceptional site.

01:54:35
Just all a bit concerning. Again, this feels like ridiculous hype. So this means that in the late 70s, early 80s, which means before Diageo even existed, talisker laid up a set of barrels and put them somewhere safe, so that 40 years later it was still whiskey. And the last few years they did some interesting finishing. So enter a guy named James Aiken. Few years they did some interesting finishing. So enter a guy named james aiken. And james aiken is an adventurer who had, for the past five years, been sailing single-handed in a 33 foot sailboat called the oaken yarn, and one of his uh his uh sponsors was talisker. And one of the things he did for talisker is he took a bunch of barrel staves with him on his atlantic crossing. Those staves were then made into barrels to finish off this 40 year old, so the whiskey wasn't taken on the expedition, just the barrels the barrels were exposed like the staves.

01:55:35
So it's their pieces, right, and they called this the expedition oak series. Now there's been a few of these and it's kind of interesting, but this particular one that I call glacial edge, they went one step further. They took a bunch of what they called this is the quote american oak, canadian whiskey casks. Uh-huh, so I go and do it's diageo. So who's it got to be? It's got to be crown royal, right, and crown royal uses charred american old casks. Often used ones too. So they took 10 of those. They took 12 of those casts and they took them to the high arctic and left them outside for four days. The extreme cold supposedly creates cracking, so that opens up the wood to additional new flavors. So they did a finishing treatment in this last iteration with this. And again, this is all ridiculous, pretentious crap, right, but the only part I would buy into. This is James Aiken is one of the supports.

01:56:40
This thing called Parley for the Oceans, where they talk about communicating about the beauty and the fragility of the ocean. It's a good charity and I have nothing bad to say about that. Adventurers often tie these two things together, but the best whiskey tasters in the world have called this the best whiskey in the world. It worked. The quote is elegance personified. It worked is elegance personified, they. They've also said things like I don't care about the silly cask toys and games you played. This is really good whiskey and you're never gonna have any. Oh, there's. There's maybe 800 bottles of this in the world.

01:57:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I noticed the button on the website doesn't say buy. It says it's an inquire I currently listed on.

01:57:26 - Richard Campbell (Host)
The last retail price I could find was four thousand euros. If you look on ebay running about eight thousand dollars. Wow, and no whiskey is that good. Wow, that is a lot of money for a drink. But yeah, something interesting happened here. It's a little. It's kept. Here's the crazy part for a whiskey that old 49.8. That's surprising. That's high. That's high right a little bit. I mean, obviously they have not cut it with any. I guarantee it's not chill filtered or anything like that. In my experience with whiskey these all this old is they tend to be pretty tarry. Yeah, like they're not a lot of fun.

01:58:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So that is, it's not designed to age, like.

01:58:11 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I mean, I have to wonder if I go to the craig elachi, which is on my radar for early next year, if there won't be a bottle open. Oh uh, because the reflection, like a few of these other very rare whiskeys, are often there, although they're. Typically you're talking about a shot an ounce for a thousand or fifteen hundred pounds when it's a ten thousand dollar bottle, and I've always avoided those for that reason, because there's only two outcomes how?

01:58:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
good, could it be?

01:58:38 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah Well, I dropped a grand on a shot and it wasn't good, or I dropped a grand on a shot and it wasn't good, or dropped a grand on a shot. It's amazing.

01:58:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
and now I'm going to get divorced so by a ten thousand, because I want another one.

01:58:47 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This is not a good idea. Like, just stay away from that. You're only going to hurt yourself. Yeah, I don't want what you can't have. Yeah and what's, and it's ultimately not worthwhile. But it's. It's surprising to me to see these absurd old whiskeys where these really qualified guys are going. Man, that's a really special whiskey. How about that?

01:59:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
what it's okay, obviously it's not the barrel staves on the sailboat and it's not the Arctic cracking. What makes it so good, do you think?

01:59:18 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I. I think the considering 40 of the 45 years we're in one place. Yeah, that's. I think they 40 of the 45 years were in one place. Yeah, that's weird. I think they put it in the best spot in the rickhouse Most likely. They put it underground yeah, off the ground, but in a very cool stable area so that the ABV drop was very low. That would have gone into the barrel at 62, right, and it came out almost 50.

01:59:44
Yeah, so to only use to lose 10 in 40 years is a very, very slow drop. That means the humidity stays stable, temperature stays stable. It was a very easy age that's really, you know what?

01:59:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
that's some good detective work.

01:59:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's what about the, though. Could they go in and check on it from time to time, or do you think this was sealed the whole?

02:00:05 - Richard Campbell (Host)
time. No, no, but it'll be the back end of the rickhouse or it'll even be a cellar. You know, there's a funny thing and I haven't gotten into this story too much, especially with things like Port Allen's distilleries that have been closed that towards the end they started stashing barrels with friends, essentially so not necessarily in a proper rickhouse, but and that's what I'm thinking this dozen or so barrels that were involved in this process. They weren't in a rickhouse, they were in a cellar, right right somebody's cellar yeah, something like that or it's the an old storage room of talus can be.

02:00:39
Talus has been there 100 plus years. Right there's a lower storage room that people don't normally go in and it just quietly sat in there, doesn't?

02:00:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
it intrigue you, though, just the idea that wouldn't you like to taste that?

02:00:51 - Richard Campbell (Host)
just to this is what I'm saying, like normally, I would avoid this at the at the place, right, but but this one, because I'm most of the time when they don't win awards. This is not a thing, right, old old whiskeys like this. This is weird. And you realize, like diageo is not even in this for the money, there's not enough bottles for it to matter. Right, right, this. So this is almost. It's just a weird prestige wouldn't you know?

02:01:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
you bro, you, richard, you should be on these panels so that you would get to taste these.

02:01:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't know that I'm that good of a taster. Oh Right, like I've dealt with folks who can take three parts of a whiskey right from individual barrels and say, try this, and he says that's got this element for it and that's one that's got this element. We put them together, it's like this and I try them all.

02:01:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm like like these are all pretty good. This is experience, or just like a super taster phenomenon that's the thing I think someone's experience.

02:01:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But you also have to have a genetic yeah I think, predisposition I think there's a.

02:01:53 - Richard Campbell (Host)
There could be a genetic element to it. There's certainly the concept of a super taster. Yeah, uh, although you don't want to be that sensitive, these are still very strong flavors. Uh, and certainly a lot of experience and I'm yeah, I'm pressing against the edges of my passion here. Guys, I love, I love great craftsmen and I love a great story. The idea of sitting in a room sampling individual, you know a dozen or a hundred individual whiskeys. I would stab myself like it's just too much, right, right, like I've done a lot of tastings and by the fourth or fifth one, you're like I could be drinking paint.

02:02:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This is what do I know exactly. This is the whiskey version of the table 17 or 27 wine or whatever where you come up with a case of something from a tasting and like what is this crap? And it was like the end table that night.

02:02:39 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, turns out it was copier fluid. Yeah, I love it. So, yeah, I don't know what I could even qualify.

02:02:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is that a syndrome? The table 17 well, that's what we call it I always changed the number, but yeah, like it's a really good table 22 wine or whatever yeah, yeah, that's a table 22 wine, yeah and I, and then you know lots of folks.

02:03:00 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So, uh, two peated for me. But I would say, if you're a little bit older now like I was not a big fan of peated whiskeys in my 40s you lose some of your taste sensitivity in my. You know. You think about, in the past couple of months, what have I done? I've done bomore, I've done talisker. How long have you been drinking whiskey? Yeah, well, like, where did you start?

02:03:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
years right yeah, but I mean when he was 21, what do you think?

02:03:21 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
yeah, so I mean, I didn't, I didn't I, richard is possible, you gave me my first scotch.

02:03:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I was that's very late, 40s what you gave him his first scotch yeah, you were there.

02:03:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It was the uh, that was your first time yeah, and it's super noble where they.

02:03:36 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You know I'm drinking a whiskey, an unusual whiskey. You know like I don't like whiskey and I will immediately order you one I know you'll like so you drink bourbon usually, or peanut.

02:03:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You drink peanut butter whiskey, that's well, I, I don't like being reduced that way, but yeah, so what? No, yeah, no, I, yeah, I do like smoother bourbons better, but yeah butter is there a butter tart vodka, because I will drink it.

02:04:01 - Richard Campbell (Host)
There is no. Somebody gave me a bottle of it. I eventually, I eventually set fire to it. It just hurt me, so you have to taste it, and after that you're just making mistakes, right, so you can't wow, we've learned so much. It's good. No, it's not. You know it's good on pancakes syrup. Yeah, actually you come from?

02:04:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
yeah, exactly from quebec. You come from the country of syrup, yeah and I have I tasted on this cruise the company of sap. They brought out some remarkable yeah barrel aged maple syrups.

02:04:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I would rather do that than whiskey frankly when I am, you can do a syrup tasting where they have the different colors. Yeah they're so good.

02:04:44 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Whenever I'm going down to New Zealand, Australia, visiting family, I bring liters of savor syrup stuff they just can't get. I get it, but the liter jug from Costco in Vancouver is $25. That's great.

02:04:56 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
A week's stay. I used to bring peanut butter to England when my father lived there because they couldn't get it. It was in the 90s.

02:05:04 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I'm sure they have peanut butter. It's a thing and it's one of the few food stuff you can bring into australia, new zealand, because it's been boiled to death. Like you know, I always declare it because you have food stuffs. The only problem I ever have at the border is that the border guard wants to get it from me. It's like I'll trade you a pine and manuka honey for that.

02:05:19 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You should just bring a little thing for him, I should.

02:05:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
He really can't actually take it. It would be bad. You're right, I should get a couple of little ones and just hand them out. But the leader jugs are prerequisite for my cousin on the farm and my buddies in Sydney. Even Troy Hunt has my bottle for me.

02:05:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Really. Oh yeah, Do you visit with Troy when you go down there?

02:05:43 - Richard Campbell (Host)
bait really. Oh yeah, do you visit with troy when you?

02:05:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
go down there? Oh, absolutely, yeah, I issued his wedding. I uh, I'm trying to remember what the what, the um you did. That's right, I think you mentioned that. Wow, I'm trying to remember the name. That was a really good, I don't have it written down maple syrup we had. Anyway next time. It's all good stuff it gets me, it's delicious paul thurot is at the rotcom when he's not in roma norte t-h-u-r-o-t-t-h-u-r-r-o-t-t. Double up on the r's and the t's and you'll get the best brand evercom become a premium member that's where the good

02:06:21
stuff hides, but there's also good stuff everywhere all over that page, including this show, by the way. Thank you, paul, for posting it on your website, of course, and his first ring daily that he does with that guy brad, the other guy, the other guy, the kid gay, we don't like to talk. Uh, paul's books are at leanpubcom, including windows everywhere and, as he mentioned, the updated version of the Field Guide to Windows 11, leanpubcom. Richard Campbell has two shows, not one, not two, actually three, if you include this one.

02:06:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
He also has.

02:06:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Run as Radio and NET Rocks, and they're all at runasradiocom Ibiza. Have you done your talk in Ibiza, are you?

02:07:00 - Richard Campbell (Host)
moving on now. I did my talk. I com ibiza. Have you done your talk? And ibiza, are you moving on? I did my talk. I did a talk in utrecht and then I flew down today.

02:07:06
No talking here. Oh, you're just there for vacation. Yep, this dude, this is the couple that I originally married and got. That's this couple. They're down there for their 50th anniversary, so that's why we're here. So we're gonna go to lisbon for a couple of days after this and then I have a conference in porto right now. Oh, that's good. So jealous I love. Yeah, I think we'll do a. I think we'll do a port next week. You should yeah, you're gonna be in port. I went on, let's do a good port.

02:07:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of people get the restaurant you know, tawny, yeah, and don't really understand that there are. There is amazing stuff out.

02:07:39 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There's a brilliant point yeah, this is the one thing you learn as you learn more about alcohol. Any, you know, tequilas like this, anything like there's really good premium renditions of it, you know? Yeah, there's a lot to learn there.

02:07:49 - Richard Campbell (Host)
There's craftsmen behind each one of them, right? What I like is getting in with a person who really cares about what they make, and and let me go to to make that product I agree winemaking in portugal, especially up the rally is unique.

02:08:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We did a sherry tasting in spain. That was incredible as well. I mean, it's fun. It really is fun to get into this. We went to the pan that. We went to the. We started at where the grapes were grown, looked at the wine presses, then went down into town where they keep the barrels. It was just really sorry. What part of spain was education?

02:08:24 - Richard Campbell (Host)
uh, yeah, that's where.

02:08:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's where all the sherry comes yeah, yeah, uh, yeah, I can't remember the town name, but it was really incredible. Yeah, it was a life-changing experience, I think.

02:08:34 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, yeah anyway, I've been holding off on doing a full-on sherry piece, but it's coming, because I keep having to crack the nut with different sherry finishes. So but she's like why are these different? And you're, then, you're in the rabbit hole and they're like no, oh yeah, it's another thing but it ties to whiskey because of the sherry casks and all that there's a natural kind of relationship.

02:08:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
100, this is fun. Thank you, richard campbell, thank you, paul ferratt, thank you all you, winners and dozers, for joining us. We do the show every Wednesday, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern Time, 1800 UTC. We stay. Thanks to the sugar industry in the United States of America, we stay in summertime until Halloween is over, so we will not be changing our clocks until November, which means we'll be at 1800 UTC until then we will move at that point.

02:09:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so wait.

02:09:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Mexico does, Mexico still do summer. They don't do it anymore.

02:09:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So it's two hours to the East coast, so it'll be one hour, starting in beginning of November, I think Right.

02:09:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah.

02:09:31 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah.

02:09:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
First weekend of November. Yep Cause they don't want to do it in Halloween.

02:09:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They got to get the kids out. Uh, they literally lobbied the us congress. Yep, to change daylight saving time. They should just kill it. We live in such an interesting country.

02:09:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I tell you just kill it.

02:09:51 - Richard Campbell (Host)
All you need is some scratch.

02:09:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You can get anything done. You can do that yeah, british.

02:09:54 - Richard Campbell (Host)
British columbia has a law on the books that says if all of the other pacific time zone states agree to stop changing, we're stopping too, and both that washington and oregon are already on board. It's just california, so you. If all of the other Pacific time zone states agree to stop changing, we're stopping too, and both Washington and Oregon are already on board. It's just California, so California, since we're not going to change it'll be over.

02:10:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Here's the weird thing we had a referendum which passed that we would stay on summertime. But, you can't stay on summertime without a federal, because your time zone is standard time. Oh Right, so we in effect said. Effect said oh, let's change our time zone. No, that don't work. That way we could stay on standard time and then you would go along with it, but you can't stay on summertime so interesting.

02:10:33 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
How long ago was that? A couple of years ago, nothing what a world.

02:10:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I'm trying I'm really trying hard to focus on the bright side of life I did focus on the xbox stuff.

02:10:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Then, leo, it's great please it's nothing going on.

02:10:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Bad there, it's just you know sunshiny unicorns, it's good um, if you want to watch, we do stream live on seven different channels. There's xcom, there's kick. That's for the right wingers, then for the left wingers we have linkedin and youtube and twitch. I don't making this up and I'm discord for the club members. You can be on either side on that one of the aisle, uh, and I think I maybe left something out. But anyway, we stream everywhere you can stream. So do watch us live.

02:11:22
But if you do watch live, do me a favor, because we don't count live views. We can't sell those. We don't have advertisers Don't buy those. So do download a copy. That's how the advertisers count it. You can go to the website twittv slash www. There's a YouTube channel dedicated. Again, it doesn't count, but you could watch it there. It's a good way to share little clips, like if you wanted to share you know, scare your friends with the best whiskey in the world you could just clip that Talisker piece and send that off to them from YouTube. It's what I want for Christmas. Yeah, this is all I ask. Just one bottle. That's all I ask. No, biggie, no.

02:12:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Just one bottle. That's all I ask. No biggie, no. If you're thinking of sending me that, join the club. Buy that with my Amazon affiliate account. Yeah, there you go. That would be. That would just be great.

02:12:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Best way to get the show and the way that counts for us best is to subscribe. Go to your favorite podcast player we don't care which one and subscribe and you'll get it automatically every tuesday or wednesday after it's done, and you won't have to think about it. You can listen at your leisure. However you listen, though, we do want you to come back next week for another thrilling, gripping edition of windows weekly. Thanks, paul, thanks richard. Have a great week.