Windows Weekly 901 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

00:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul Theriot is here. Well, actually he's in Dallas, richard Campbell's home in beautiful British Columbia. We've got lots to talk about the big story, of course. 24h2 is finally here. Paul has some recommendations and big updates to Copilot, plus new games for Xbox. All that coming up next on Windows Weekly Podcasts you love from people.

00:26
You trust this is twit this is windows weekly with paul thurad and richard campbell, episode 901, recorded October 2nd 2024. 75% corn. It's time for Windows Weekly, the show where we cover the latest news from Microsoft. Today's a big news day, I think so. Let us not delay. Get all the winners and dozers together. And Paul Thorat's, here Are you in Dallas, texas, tejas? Yes, I am, look at that beautiful room you're in.

01:08 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Fancy and I am looking out at Sea of Nothingness. It's the Dallas metro area the flattest place on earth, perhaps.

01:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And then are you on your way to Mexico after this? Yeah, tomorrow we fly to Mexico. It's kind of on the way't it? He's still in his uh fortress of solitude and beautiful madera park. Very happy to be at home, yeah I'll give you that.

01:31 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I'll give you the what the window view it's been. Oh, richard, it's so beautiful. Richard campbell, yeah, there's, if you watch closely. There's been sea lions working the uh, the salmon out there. So for the past couple of days, that is is stunning. That's where I just saw a head. There, the salmon are doing their thing and they're being feasted upon.

01:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is it okay to make the show title I Saw a Head there or should we probably?

01:56 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Let's see what happens.

01:57 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Let's see what happens, it's the beginning of the show there's some good titles.

02:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's a little too soon to talk titles.

02:02 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I wouldn't commit now.

02:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I'm doing. I think it was Mac Break Weekly yesterday, and then everybody's all excited, 24h2 is here and I'm going dude, dude, this is Mac Break Weekly. Dude, wait till tomorrow. Okay, well, tomorrow has come. Here, it is here, it is. 24h2 has arrived. We're all excited, are we?

02:26 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't know, are we?

02:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I guess so what do you say? What do you say?

02:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I say there's been a lot of shenanigans this year shenanigans, there you go, that's a title right there a lot of shenanigans. I like I like that microsoft announces this like they're the most common measured organization on Earth. Everything is fine. This makes sense.

02:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
As you expected, Windows 24 H2 has arrived exactly on time.

02:54 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, actually it was a week earlier.

02:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, even worse.

02:57 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, next Tuesday would be Patch Tuesday. I sort of assumed that would be the day because reasons, but you know Microsoft right, because reasons. So you know, as we talked last week and probably the previous 17 weeks, this has been kind of a weird year, for we release things while we release them suck it.

03:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So here we are. It's theirs to do right, yeah.

03:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So 2024 will go down in the books as being a unique year, unless they somehow managed to duplicate this next year, 2023 was pretty hairy too. Man like, oh no I I don't mean it that way. I just mean that, yes, they were both terrible, um, but they released 24h2, initially, remember, in june, with the copilot plus pcs, and now they've released it allegedly, uh, for everybody, um, so you know, we'll see. I, I am obviously traveling, so I only have three computers with me, so I don't have as you know, yeah, I don't have as many test cases here, but uh, I'm not seeing it yet.

03:56
I'll just put it that way, so we'll get to that. But yeah, so in the build-up to this there has been, you know, I? I always talk about how I don't like multiple displays, but now that I'm stuck on this tiny laptop screen, I'm kind of going nuts here. I can only look at one thing at a time. Yeah, yeah um dude.

04:11 - Richard Campbell (Host)
The usb power display is a godsend. It's essential.

04:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I hardly ever use it. That's at least three at home.

04:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I could have brought any of them.

04:19 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, should have brought them, yeah, but I do find bringing two annoys people.

04:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Especially if they're a little eyed.

04:30 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's because you're using their tray table on the plane. People are high maintenance. I don't know what it's about.

04:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, I guess if I was feeling up to it, I could just use one of my other Windows laptops as a display, but that takes 30 minutes to set up.

04:41 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I should put some hook Velcro on the back of one of was doing. Just stick it to the seat back as an above monitor, and that would work.

04:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Anyway, you go to war with the army, you have it and whatnot. So here I am. So let's see. Let's see if I can remember this because it's so convoluted, but last week was week D, no the week before was week. D. I'm losing my mind, man, give me a second. Yes, last week was week D. Uh, microsoft, remember, did not ship any updates on that Tuesday, as we you know. As would be the schedule.

05:16 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They were waiting until the show was finished, as usual. Yeah, yeah.

05:19 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, Pretty much. And so they released the preview update for 22 and 23 H2, I think, on Thursday, and then it wasn't until Monday that they released one for 24 H2, which is kind of curious timing, right, the 22, 23 H2 build preview, build preview update was apparently a freaking disaster. So all kinds of reliability problems. People were having instances of computers just rebooting repeatedly. And so, yeah, Microsoft just, I think today or yesterday took the rare step of issuing something called a known issue rollback, which has actually existed for several years now, In fact maybe as long as eight years ago. It's been, they've been around a while, but it's a. It's basically another update you can install to fix an update that screwed over your computer.

06:14
It's hilarious, Um, and so if most of the people who would have installed a preview update, of course, are individuals, so, um, you can install this and reboot and then hopefully you'll be back. But you know, 24-H2 is out, so who cares? And then, if you're in an organization that somehow allowed this, through which I can't imagine many do, there's a group policy, of course, to employ that same fix. So there's that. So we ended last week well, not last week, we ended Monday with okay, you know, we're caught up. This is what I sort of predicted. We're good. And then Tuesday came and Microsoft announced approximately 1,100 things related to Windows, one of which was 24-H2 is now available you know, for everybody Did they bury it yeah.

07:01
There's not. It's weird in a way because, as well, it's weird in a way that 24-H2, there's not much. It's weird in a way because, as well, it's weird in a way that 24 H2, there's not much to say about it. Right, you know, we've been talking about this thing for I mean actually for months, you know, but certainly for the last few weeks we've been saying look, it's coming, it's coming and yeah yeah, but we definitely have been talking about it for a year.

07:21
I mean, I, I went through in fact, I should try to find this right now but I went through and you know I have to update the book for this and there's a lot of stuff in it, but nothing major. A lot of the stuff that's in it is, you know, kind of behind the scenes things. Right. It supports Wi-Fi 7, now Great. There's support for HDR backgrounds, there's some energy saver changes, some Bluetooth LE audio support changes, right. So these are not things I have to worry about for the book, that they're not user facing. You know UI things like the taskbar buttons they keep scrolling with just to mess with me. So, okay, I mean, it's fine. So there's not. You know, we've, we've, we've talked about this and there are going to be further changes, right, we talked about this account manager, which is a silly name, where they're going to pull out the sign-out option. So it's now on the account manager and not via yet another submenu. So that's not actually in the RTM version of 24-H2, which Microsoft would never call it that.

08:18
But you know, let's call a thing what it is. And there you go. So the ISOs are available. They finally addressed ARM64 ISOs and they addressed it by saying they're not available, which is not you know. It's like saying you know, getting ready, getting ready to install, which to me is equivalent to not installing. Yeah, why are you telling me this?

08:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But you know I was always in, except for the moment where I don't want to be anymore but there's a note that says we will make those available in the coming weeks, so it's coming.

08:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So if you're on an rmpc or thinking about it, to me this is the baseline I I it's very dangerous to you know get into the insider program, for example, to test recall, like will be happening soon, um, without an ability to go back so no, and that would be the whole thing.

09:06 - Richard Campbell (Host)
If you're going to sacrifice a machine to that arm implementation.

09:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
If something goes wrong, it's it's borked until the iso shows up yep, yeah, yeah, I mean there are ways around it there, um, uup dump or whatever udp dump whatever it's called will give you you could use the Windows Insider ISO. You know there are things you could do just to have a computer that works, sort of. But that's not right. You don't do that to people at Stable. You want to have the official ISO. So that will happen.

09:39 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I think we've been counting on this window since June for the few machines that are running these things I know on this window since June for the few machines that are running these things I know.

09:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That they'll hold together Still, which speaks to how come it's not available today. You've known about this since when it's been months.

09:52 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, it's been months and months. They should have been released in June.

09:57 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yep, microsoft published a document describing the many reasons why you might not be getting this update yet, and there are some interesting ones in there. Um, easy anti-cheat is apparently yeah, if you have that, you cannot get the update. So that means they're actually looking for it. Yeah, so there's like four. Yeah, I guess it'll break the game right, like that's.

10:20 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's a bunch of that's fortnight, that's like a whole raft of very you know, games that have issues with exploitation, right and uh. So that's interesting that the installer checks to see are you running this? Do you have anything that installs that has easy cheat? Uh and yeah I'm.

10:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Some of these are curious to me because you would think windows 11 to windows 11, this, this stuff should just work, but there there are Intel SmartSound technology drivers that are incompatible. Wallpaper customization.

10:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This all sounds.

10:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Ring Zero stuff. I know Well, fingerprint sensors, you know, but here's the one that's not Ring Zero. This is my favorite one on the list. This is so funny. Asphalt 8, airborne the game. What, if you have it installed? It will not install 24H2. Which is, if you have it installed, it will not install 24H2, which is okay.

11:07 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's I don't know, so whatever I mean. So here's the question. The implication there, paul, is that the CrowdStrike incident has changed the course of 24H2. I love it, I hope that's true.

11:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's the implication.

11:19 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's good, Right? Yeah, Maybe If they're really going to start enforcing more. You know you have to go through the API. You don't get to play in Ring Zero anymore. That is good. It's interesting to see what breaks. But this is the same as like Ned Pyle pushing on no SMB1. And the best way to find out if you have SMB1 is to turn it off and listen for the screams right Like they're coming. Yep, that's funny.

11:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Maybe not the idea that scream is coming from your out of support WD NAS. Would you upgrade already? Yeah, oh God, yes, yes, so there's a new term Microsoft's using, and it's not from today or yesterday. It's fairly recent development, but they're describing this as a full os swap, meaning it's not an enablement package, right? Yeah, it's actually a place it's like an old, an old school upgrade. It's a literal, which I don't know why we have to point that out, but okay, I don't know where that term came from, but you know I got.

12:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I did a show with Aria Carly, who's now Aria Hanson Congratulations. She got married, who's one of my update goddesses. And she talked exactly in those terms that they are alternating between the Miegelman package, which is a bunch of feature ads, and an OS replacement.

12:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, Okay, well, it's just the language Like I believe maybe I'm getting it wrong I think it was full OS swap and it's like okay, I don't. I mean, I guess it's that.

12:49 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I've never heard it you know that term before Used phrase. That way, yeah, yeah.

12:54 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But it's all over the place all of a sudden, so maybe that's the new term.

12:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, like a new language.

12:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, and then I didn't write about this myself, but Mary Jo did and I'm sure others did, but I think this is the first LTSC version of Windows 11. So this is the long-term servicing channel release. Right? This is the thing that was missing from Windows 11 when it first appeared, which was keeping apparently some people on 10. It was one of the excuses. Yeah, microsoft very strenuously recommends not using this. It's for specialty installs in certain situations. There's a version of Enterprise and a version for IoT Enterprise.

13:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Why does Microsoft not push it?

13:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Because it doesn't install updates. Leo, they really would like to no ads.

13:37 - Richard Campbell (Host)
huh yeah.

13:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah.

13:38 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I mean so part of this no security patches. Oh, that's not good.

13:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah that's not good Okay.

13:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But even I was. You know again, I don't cover this part of the world per se that much anymore. It's not a simple, fast little process Is you can make it available to your users or you can make it available as a preview, like an optional update. I guess we're giving them the option to install this thing. What are you doing? One of the options is not do not install this thing. No, that's not an option.

14:20 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Not an option. The question is do you want to give your users a choice of when to install it? That's all right, yeah, but you're installing it. It's happening one way or the other. I talked to Prentice Sysadmin to do this. It's like this will be installed by Friday, but you get to pick the day this week it installs. So it's like you're going out of the office for the afternoon, start it and then leave it's choice adjacent. It's choice-ish.

14:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, it's like one of those rail-based video games where it makes you feel like you're actually making choices, but you really can only go in this direction. You're on the track For most people on unmanaged PCs, windows Home and Windows Pro as individuals. Two years of support, I think it's two, three years for enterprise and education, I want to say, and then five years for LTSC, if I'm not mistaken. So not that it matters, because November is going to come and you're going to be updated, so who cares?

15:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is the presumption with LTSC that manual updates will be applied at the IT department's discretion.

15:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Actually, I think the assumption is that these are PCs that are not necessarily used by people. Yeah, they're in some back room doing some, whatever it might be.

15:36 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And the IoT version, those kinds of things. They're the offline machines that would have to be manually updated, but then they also don't have the same level of exposure.

15:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's different in the Linux world. They have long-term support versions of most Linux.

15:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yes, linux also has a kernel that doesn't get hacked by security companies. So there are changes, there are different approaches. There's something about Windows that this has always been the case, where there's this group of people that want to do this thing, where they're running some enterprise slash server, whatever version, but as a client, and part of the reason is they don't want you know now, these days they don't want the updates, right. So the earliest version of this was Mark Rezinovich documenting in Windows NT Magazine how you could make a single change to the registry to turn Windows NT4 workstation into server, which is beautiful.

16:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Hey, sorry.

16:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That was not just a random outburst, but a very precise and short outburst. I'm like is there more coming? No, that's it Okay. So you know Windows Server 2003, 2008,. Whatever time frame. So you know the windows, yeah, windows server at 2003, 2008, whatever time frame. You know there was that kind of a desktop package you could install to kind of give it the xp look and feel back in that day or whatever.

16:54
And then, obviously, with server, they go in this completely different direction where what they want for a long time is just like server core. Um, you know, command line interface, no gui, etc. Etc. But this is still a thing. You know. There are people interface, no GUI, et cetera, et cetera. But this is still a thing. You know. There are people that, look, I did this myself just to look into it. You know, maybe I can run enterprise. You know, and I know there are people out there like man, I need LTS, I need it. You know, I just don't want, I want to just control that myself. And I would just say you know, given I get it, I feel it myself All right, yeah.

17:27 - Richard Campbell (Host)
What else do we have on this single screen machine that I can't?

17:29 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
stand using. So we've had a couple of Windows Insider builds since the last time we spoke Dev and beta channel both got a build. Both of them have one new feature, nothing particularly interesting, but dev channel 6 gigahertz support for mobile hotspot. So right now it's 2, 4, and 5. If you're familiar with this feature, I just literally used it on a plane, which probably is illegal, and you can choose between 2.4 and 5 gigahertz, but also, best, choose any available. So whatever the device can connect with it, we'll use both. I don't know why. You know choose, choose any available. So whatever the device can connect with it, we'll use both.

18:06 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't know why you'd choose anything else than whatever yeah.

18:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
so unfortunately, with six, though, if you choose six, you you're only six and you don't have a choice like so. Apparently this is new, right, so it's, it's a new um, it's a new spectrum or whatever, but that's kind of odd. And then there's just a single language change. If you're familiar with the out of box experience with by this point I've probably run 260,000 times or something, whatever it is there's a step in there where they refer to um in the out of box experience, where they refer to something called tailored experiences. This is like one of the tips in the book where I tell you just to don't ever do that. It's basically you're allowing them to track you more. They're going to call that personalized offers. Now, nice, yeah, so you're going to want to turn that off, just so you know what it means. Whatever the name is right.

18:56
And then last time we spoke about this, it must have gone to Canary and Dev. So now beta and release preview channels are getting the new version of the snipping tool. This is the one where you get to choose where the screenshots and screen captures are saved. If you'd like to, you can change the fabric. Not a lot there.

19:12 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And then today it is interesting to see what this is going to become now post-24H2.

19:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, oh, you like the new version of iOS. Yeah, oh, here's another one.

19:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's already changing. How long before we start talking about 25H2?

19:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Because it's not going to be long. No, this is not iPhone weekly man.

19:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We're not doing that, that's exactly what happens in the iPhone world. Okay, we got the new ones. When's the next one? When's the next?

19:36 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
one. Well, it's always like you might want to skip the iPhone 17. It's like I just got an iPhone 16. What are you talking about? You're like, what is the? This is what you're writing about.

19:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Hey, speaking of the out of box experience, yes, where is my? I was like, yes, yes.

19:53 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I'm trying to get kid.

19:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Where is my Qualcomm Snapdragon elite developers kit? Where?

20:02 - Richard Campbell (Host)
where I checked. This is a weird thing.

20:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It says you got it shipped October 2nd, that's today, for delivery in.

20:08 - Richard Campbell (Host)
September 19th. Yeah yeah, mine is October 2nd, delivery September 20th, which is awesome. I love everything about that. How come yours is delayed? But I got well, everything's delayed. I got an email today a new one from them, from Arrow Electronics, saying that they're excited to have received some supply of the Snapdragon development kits for Windows.

20:29
Just like yours and we know they're working hard to provide additional units as soon as possible. It's time. We expect more units to arrive in the coming weeks and we'll fulfill your order as soon as the units come available. So it sounds like I'm not in the first batch At least that they sent you an email.

20:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They haven't sent me anything.

20:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This is the weird part. Then they say, as a reminder, the initial orders had the purchase price reduced by 10%. Do I remember that? Okay, if you still wish to receive these units as ordered, you need to do nothing. Well, that's relief, you know? Like, okay an order, but what does that imply? If I do something, something changes. If you would like to modify shipping terms or even cancel your order based upon these changes I don't know what the changes are um, you can notify us. Canceling or shipping changes will receive a real full refund if applicable. So what this implies to me is that there's a new price for the product going forward and if you mess with your existing order, you won't get that price anymore you'll get a new price.

21:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh yeah, I just got that email too.

21:25 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I got it yesterday, yeah you know what the other thing on this might imply as well is they may be shipping immediately on the new price because they make more money on it.

21:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh god uh that's really annoying, yeah this has all the.

21:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This is, you know, when a company's going out of business and you sent the money and you just really kind of want to get the thing, or maybe get the money back, and what's happening.

21:47 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, that's my little Kickstarter lamp, the little dude, the little green dude. That's exactly what ended up happening with that Delayed, delayed, delayed, delayed, until I finally got somebody on and it's like so, if I pay an extra $40 in shipping, I get this like next week. Yeah, all right, here's the $40. And then they ghosted you for two more weeks. No, no, I got it right away, but I then I named it the bargain right because it was a 200 lamp held up by 40 in shipping so okay.

22:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So yeah, I got the same email yesterday.

22:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Now that I, but it went in my spam the good news is this is coming via qualcomm, so it's not. This may be a fly-by-night uh company they chose to go with, but I mean Qualcomm can't let this go bad right?

22:27 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I mean, I'm not even. I mean again, I used a credit card, so you know credit card rules are pretty simple. I can reverse it. No, I haven't been charged, okay. So that's legally, they're not supposed to charge you Right, so they take much longer. You may not get it. I want it. I still want it. I want it too, and apparently Geerling got one. We were talking about this before the show started, but Jeff Geerling's already got a YouTube video.

22:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's the purpose of the email is we sent one we sent one to Jeff Geerling See, they're shipping.

22:55 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, because he's way more important now.

22:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're like see it's shipping.

22:59 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I mean they. I also appreciate I think Burzik mentioned this that Geerling immediately installed Linux on it, which is what I want to do with it anyway, because I want to turn it into an HA box.

23:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's brutal, and I'm not what is wrong with you people. So did he notice any homemade looking stuff inside of it or anything Did he look for? Yeah?

23:23 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't know.

23:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Like what's the hdmi port look like? Is it glued?

23:26 - Richard Campbell (Host)
is it super glued over? Yeah, it's a little plastic cat. Yeah, a little little piece of duct tape over that.

23:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And here's your dongle I will keep it as a regular windows machine for as long as I possibly can yeah, I know, I know what that language means.

23:39 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's. It's like when my kids figured out, like what will see means.

23:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're like we know what that means. Maybe we'll see. Alright, let's take a little break and continue on that triangle of sadness now over the Qualcomm triangle of sadness, the arrow triangle of sadness uh, we will have more with windows weekly. Paul thorat, richard campbell uh, on this fine network. Thank you for all of you watching all. Let me see 616 watching live on xcom and facebook and linkedin and kick and uh, discord, of course, for our club members. Uh, what have, what have? What have I left off? Oh, youtube I've heard of them and twitch seven different places you can watch and we love having all of you. I get to see a unified chat version so I could see all your chat messages and I try to respond, uh, if I can, if I'm not busy because I'm doing all the finger stuff, but anyway, we're glad to have you. We're especially glad to have our Club Twit members. They are the salt of the earth, the bread that makes the butter, the whatever tastes good. Our show today, brought to you by Thinks Canary.

24:56
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27:19
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27:59
You have 60 days to decide, but I should tell you that in all the years Twitter's partnered with ThinkScanary, no one has ever asked for their money back. That guarantee has never been claimed, because it works. It does exactly what I just said it does, and it does it so beautifully, so elegantly. These honeypots are a must-have for every network. Visit canarytoolstwit, by the way. Enter the code TWit. And how did you hear about us box? You're going to get 10 off for life. Canarytools slash twit. We thank thanks to canary for a great product which we use and, uh and for, yeah, the cornucopia if you will, of co-pilot.

28:54
We had daniel rubino on twit on sunday and he kept saying uh, I can't tell you, but there's a big, there's big stuff coming, there's big stuff coming, can't tell you. Well, it was. There was a that microsoft had some big stuff coming. Can't tell you. Well, it was, microsoft had some big co-pilot announcements.

29:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I know You're not really supposed to even allude to it, but fair enough, he didn't.

29:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He said I wish I could allude to it, but I can't.

29:16 - Richard Campbell (Host)
He literally mentioned it, though why would he say that, while alluding to it, he said he couldn't allude to it?

29:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm sorry, daniel, I didn't want to get you in trouble. He didn't allude to anything. We were just talking.

29:27 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Microsoft has talked about a Wave 2.

29:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so was this Wave 2? It's like when you have Montezuma's Revenge, Like Wave 2 is the one you've got to get through Before the Cipro kicks in.

29:42
No. So Microsoft did a Wave two for Copilot for business right a couple weeks ago. Copilot for Microsoft 365, or, as now, we're calling it again, microsoft 365 Copilot, because, seriously, my head just stopped spinning. Thank you for doing it again. Pick a name, any name, yes, please. So now we're seeing the kind of consumer one, so adding to the confusion. Of course we have Copilot, which is the app that's in Windows and in Edge, I guess, and on mobile, actually, but whatever and we also have Copilot plus PCs, both of which have their own things going on, so of course, they announced new features for both on the same day. So it's fun trying to keep track of this stuff. So we'll start with Copilot, which is in Windows 11. Now is the app right? This is the thing they jammed down our throats last September as part of 22H2, three seconds before they shipped 23H2, ensuring everyone would get it. It started off as a pane in the side, then it became a resizable pane and then it became an app and they moved the icon three times, and now it's a year later. So hilarious. But they're adding features to it and making it a little more useful.

30:50
If you think back to when they first launched this. There were basically two things there. There was the text or the, you know, the chat based interface like you would have at copilotmicrosoftcom, and then there were also these kind of windows 11, I don't know what to call them feature launchers. You know, like I would like to make my screen dark or whatever, and it would go into settings and say is this what you want? And it was pretty limited. Right, there were always going to be more of those, but now there are none of those. So that was one of the fun changes that occurred between then and now. And now they've announced these additional features, which are. You know, I don't ever purposely launch Copilot, but I do sometimes launch it and I keep waiting for it.

31:29 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, occasionally your mouse strays over that gigantic icon.

31:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, well in my case it's these giant hands, you know fingers hitting the wrong key.

31:39
Yeah, so I have not gotten this update yet, but there are a bunch of things that will occur here. It's not much of this is very interesting to me. Honestly. I would say, compared to the copilot plus PC stuff, not super exciting, but turning it into more of an AI companion which you know, kind of the original vision for you know her. So copilot day I almost said Cortana daily. So Copilot Daily I almost said Cortana Daily. I do struggle with this. We could call it Clippy Daily, it doesn't matter.

32:10
But Copilot Daily is every day you get up and there's a summary of news and weather and blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff. You can have it read out loud like you would do with a. It's a device, perhaps, or an Echo device, I guess, and that is rolling out now, apparently in the US and UK. More countries personalization options are coming, but haven't seen it. Co-pilot voice just the same stuff we see on all of these things right now you can choose from different voices. You know, if you set up a new iPhone, you got to choose a voice for Siri, including men voices, which I'd say is a little weird for something called Siri, you know.

32:40 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I've had three different cases now where people have sent me a podcast generated by AI where the male voice sounds like me.

32:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Interesting that's the Notebook LLM.

32:51 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's one of them.

32:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's pretty wild. They really do sound like podcasters. Yeah, all the ums and yeah, it's very strange.

33:01 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
My ums are all natural and possibly caused by something that's wrong with my brain, so in their case, it's exactly the same thing.

33:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're calculating in the background.

33:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Crap in, crap out. That's the AI model, Personalized discover, the discover feed. They can't seem to get over. I don't want to even discuss that More Microsoft Edge integration we know that Copilot is available as a pain in the browser as well, and that's a way you can use it on another Mac or even Linux.

33:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Can I use that as a title? If I spell it P-A-I-N?

33:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, you could say the pain is a pain, pain in the browser, you know. And then this well, these curious ones I guess there's a couple, so think deeper. This is an experimental feature, so this is another new thing. They're. They're going to keep these disabled by default, but you can go in and turn it on if you want. Now this one.

33:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Actually, I know what that is. That's uh chat. Gpt uh 401. Right, that's the chat.

34:02 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It thinks it's slow, but it can supposedly reason yeah, so this one, you have to be paying for Cloud Pilot Pro and it will answer complex questions.

34:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, that's an OpenAI thing. Yeah, it's a new model from OpenAI.

34:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, no, it's a completely new Microsoft thing.

34:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't know why you called it that way. Oh, I'm sorry, did I say?

34:19 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, it's hard to overstate. I rely on the air and open AI.

34:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Anyway, a limited number of countries. Well, as far as I can tell, it's just relabeled open AI. There's nothing. Is Microsoft adding anything to Copilot?

34:36 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They put a Mercury sticker on it. I don't know why you don't understand it.

34:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You've got a key. What do you?

34:43 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
run it. I don't know why you don't understand it. It's something completely different. It will be available in Australia, canada, new Zealand, uk, us. But the big one here and this is one maybe we should try to digest a little bit is Copilot Vision. This is also experimental, so it's off by default If you turn it on. If you thought recall was a nightmare, this will scan everything you do in real time and it will offer you suggestions based on the context of what it sees. Now they've learned something from recall. Right, this thing is only alive while you're in the context of the thing. It just it disappears. Nothing is ever saved anywhere. It doesn't you know. It goes away immediately. There's no history, there's no anything like that. Um, it will. It's primarily from what I can tell. Really, for the web, right, you're on a computer and you have you're looking at something on the web and it's supposed to not work with paywall content.

35:45 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Uh, sensitive content.

35:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I know whatever that means. Um, there's all right. This is one of those things. I feel like I need to experience this before I can speak intelligently about it, which, frankly, should be true of everything but a limited number of copilot pro subscribers in the U S only. So it's going to be a really limited drip, drip, drip kind of a rollout, but this is like. What's up with the regional filters.

36:08 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This is interesting, like they clearly are afraid of the law and even if it's restricted in the US I bet you it's state-based Like I'll bet you California doesn't get it Look among the many valid complaints about AI of any kind is the fact that, in order to train the models to the scale and scope they need to, they have to steal content.

36:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Basically, they're scraping content, right. So obviously you don't want to go after paywall. It may literally be as simple as is the URL NYT, you know, nytimescom or whatever.

36:41 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Basically sorting the URLs by quality of their legal team.

36:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It may literally be that dumb or that simple. Maybe that's a better way to say it. So I don't know. I guess what I appreciate about this is just that they this time are acknowledging that maybe people won't trust this. Yeah, you know with recall.

37:02 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This might make you uncomfortable.

37:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Steve Gibson yesterday did a big segment on that write-up from the blog post. From who was it? The Recall blog post.

37:19 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh, the guy from Microsoft, David Wesson.

37:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, and went through it step by step and, uh, verdict was perfect, good job. What was that first thing that they offered? Because it was actually.

37:31 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, I'm going to tell you in a second because we're going to get to, that it was exactly the same thing. That's what it was. That, the, the. The problem was, they didn't that this is we're going to we're going to get to this because in fact I I'm sort of getting to it right now.

37:43
This is actually what I meant. There are changes to that's Copilot no, sorry, that's Recall, which is a feature of Copilot plus PC, but an AI feature on your Windows computer. There are two substantive changes that have happened since they first announced it. One is they made it opt-in instead of optional. This is a squirrely word that someone said to me explicitly was opt-in. It was in fact opt-out, so that's garbage. But they also addressed the other big complaint from critics, which is that you cannot install it. That's new, isn't it? Yeah, that's new. Those are the two big changes. But as far as all the technical diagrams and we're doing this and this and Windows Hello, ess and encryption and blah, that was all that was already there.

38:34 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You can go back and find it all in the original post which I referenced back in June, when everyone was complaining about it.

38:37 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So all they've done is modified the installer. I mean, look, they did a security review with a third party just to make sure that what they believe was true. They also said that, because of the secure future initiative that they have the new trustworthy computing thing, that it has to undergo an internal audit along those lines. They did that before May, by the way, and it passed then. This is that. A lot of this is just PR control. It's security theater. Yeah Well, look, the security was always real. The bit where the user is always in control, sort of. I mean, opt-in versus opt-out is important. It really is, and this is why-.

39:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So this so-called enhanced sign and security architecture is exactly what they talked about? Yes, it's, this has been.

39:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I wrote an article about this in may or june this is I explained what this was.

39:30
This is when everyone's like oh, you don't know, these guys pull it out. They did this. Yeah, they didn't have windows. Hello, ess, you. You can't even use this unless you have it. Oh, oh, I should say sorry. There was a third change. Since we're on this topic, they also changed the code so that you can't run this on a non-Copilot Plus PC. So that instance where those security researchers were ripping the code out of the insider program and putting it on the normal PCs and then reporting that it was unsafe, they're not going to let you do that anymore. So if you want to see if it's unsafe or not, you have to use an actual, qualified, certified uh copilot plus pc.

40:07
Still sounds like all I've done is update the installer well, I, I, I, I, I love it.

40:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I love that you make me not look cynical like I. I. I knew right this, this, uh, this installer and the and the description is the picture is new.

40:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, I mean I can't actually read it on your screen there, but yeah, it's kind of hard to read. Um, look, functionally nothing has really changed and and fundamentally I still you know this is a very contrarian view, unfortunately, although but yeah, the point being nothing needed to change.

40:38 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They just needed to actually explain how it was going to work so it's really interesting.

40:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean here's steve gibson who you know is paying attention. Yeah, really thought this was all new.

40:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Uh, no, I know they're presenting it as all new.

40:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, yep, I know and who was a very skeptical. He says I'm still not going to use it but it but I was very he was very skeptical about. He says, oh good, they've solved this with the vbs.

40:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I just enclaves in the VBS enclave, literally, is in the original post. I, I I will just look. When I defended this and everyone said I was an insane person, I feel like I was the only one paying attention, because this stuff was there. You can go see it for yourself. I'm not, you know, I'm not making it up. It's there and I wrote about it. You can go see what I wrote about it back in May and June.

41:20
So this is, like I said, not really new, but it doesn't mean they haven't made changes. Look, there could have been changes under the hood. They could have enhanced things or whatever. Actually, you know, like, for example, this one I don't know for sure, but I'm trending in a certain direction, which is they talk about how, with Windows Hello ESS, which is just, you know, windows Hello, so it's facial or fingerprint recognition Anytime you engage with recall, it has to scan you. That time it's similar to when you get a 2FA notification, microsoft authenticator app. There's no time limit where it doesn't have to do that. Every time you have to authenticate yourself, it's doing that.

41:56
Now, is that new that one? I actually don't know for sure, but it's not new, right, because that is how Windows Hello ESS works right. Anytime you're crossing this kind of security boundary, you have to make sure it's you, and so that one I have to put an asterisk. I actually don't know, because they never explicitly discussed it. I just don't know if that's how it worked or not.

42:19
That may be new, but fundamentally this is the same thing they were talking about in June. The difference is they blissfully acted like everyone trusted them and would love this without and I told the story that day sitting in the audience use of many like oh boy, I mean, I know my audience, I know how they're going to react. The thing that is weird about this to me is the overreaction, if you will, or the that it was far more visceral and negative than even I imagined. I thought I could foresee how this was going to go, and I was off by an order of magnitude. People freaked out over this. So look, I'm excited to try this. I want to see what it's like.

43:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean the single big change changes. You can uninstall it, right, that's. That is a big.

43:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, opt out so it's. You're not automatically opted into it when you got rid of negative optioning but you can also remove.

43:12 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You can actually remove it.

43:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's not that. It not that.

43:13 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That means anything right, well, all you could say is it deleted, the installer? Like, how would you know, right? People said I want, I want ie off my machine, and so I deleted the icon, yeah, and then the whole internet went down with you.

43:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Great smart move there. Yeah, grandma, no, but um so yeah, we'll see. I. The one thing I I always said, even when I was defending this back in may or june or whatever it was, was look it's, it's microsoft. I mean, we still have to see this thing in the real world right.

43:41 - Richard Campbell (Host)
so we everybody was very sure it was bad and had never actually seen it, Right.

43:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So those same people and others that maybe I trust a little bit more will test this now on real computers and we will see. I can't claim that it's somehow perfect. It's going to work, but based on the way they describe it, it looks like they've done the right thing.

44:02 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I want a real expert at it on a copilot PC saying breach this thing, break it. I want you to break it, that's right.

44:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Show us something real, so they did do that with it. They won't name the company, but the company did try to hack into this thing and they weren't able to do so, that's good. Yeah, I do so, that's good. Yeah, I wish they'd name them, but okay, uh, well, maybe they will. Maybe this will come out eventually. Maybe they want it to be out first, and then that would be the time for that discussion.

44:28 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's kind of hard to say so it'll be. Life will be easier if there's a whole bunch of people hooked on it saying I don't care what the security is, I want this, this thing's awesome, I can't live without it.

44:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, I think that's what microsoft's hoping, because I think that exactly if it it is secure, then it is going to be a really useful thing. Yes, it's going to be a very handy thing.

44:45 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I'm afraid it'll be really useful, even if it isn't secure.

44:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yes, it's just dangerous. It's a problem because if it isn't secure the first time, somebody gets into it and it becomes a big issue. There's a breach, it's going to be a big deal and Microsoft's going to have egg on its face.

45:08 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Somebody will make it a big deal, but the average mortal does not care less. It's disturbing to me that they're not offering this at the corporate level, because there are plenty of corporate organizations who'd be all over this.

45:15 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I think we're going to get there. For all the craziness around Microsoft and AI over the past year and a half or whatever, for all the craziness around Microsoft and AI over the past year and a half or whatever, they've really gone after this in a conservative way, and it may be as simple as it's just early. You know we just did it. You know it's probably limited. In many ways they were intending for this entire summer, now into the time frame now for it to be in preview and testing, and it wasn't going to be.

45:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah and only available on the CoPpilot plus machines. But yeah, which is like snapdragon machines like it was a very narrow sect of the market it's so narrow it's not even measurable.

45:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's the problem. No, it really isn't. That's the thing.

45:55 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I that's one of the important points, even if everything almost makes me wonder if they didn't want this deal to happen, while they were in the exclusivity period. Okay, like when it blew up. That became useful to them. They said well, we should just wait.

46:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This really undermined that launch. Though I don't think this was, I don't disagree.

46:13 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Is it possible?

46:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Once it went off.

46:14 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They found an upside.

46:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is it possible there were warring factions within Microsoft?

46:18 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There always are. Yeah, there always are. Yeah, there always are.

46:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There was a group that really wanted this and there was a group that said are you kidding? This is a terrible idea.

46:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So the thing you're describing is the type of conversation one has around open AI and is this new model ready and are we moving too fast and is this thing going to take over the earth? It's like this existential thing. The recall stuff isn't exactly like that, because it's local to a machine, it's protected by VBS Enclave. You know all the stuff that was already there. Anyway, it's encrypted. It's, you know, protected by Windows Home OSS.

46:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
In the early. You know people who cracked it were saying it isn't encrypted. Is that just because they weren't using it on a Copilot Plus PC?

47:02 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They were not using it on a windows copilot plus pc.

47:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yes, that's so if you use it where it's intended to be used. It's fully encrypted, and and not and not this is like.

47:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
so one of the yeah, so one of the one of the things that those guys said was I was able to log into a different account on the same machine and browse the disk and access it right, which can't happen if it's encrypted. So it doesn't matter if you have an admin account or whatever, you can't do it. You. You can't, as the owner of a company that deployed this pc to someone, see it it. There's no way to see it unless you're you. That's always been the case, and I don't know. The argument over this makes me sad, because this is where you see. Well, you know, when CrowdStrike happened, there was this knee-jerk reaction that this was Microsoft's fault. Now, that type of thing is deserved to some degree. It's the burden Microsoft has to bear. But okay, what happened happened? So I think when this type of thing happens and Microsoft did have that VM thing out that was out in the world and they got hacked and what happened happened, that's bad. And then this thing comes along and they're like are you serious? And then people say, oh, I put it on a computer and I got into it immediately. It's like, of course it's Microsoft, you know. This is why them standing up on a stage and introducing this feature so gleefully, like it was something everyone would want which, like Richard kind of said, I guess is something everyone statistically probably does want you know most people and ignoring the security privacy aspect of it that David Weston post that you were referencing is what should have been out that day that day, absolutely 100%. It is irresponsible that they didn't do that. So lesson learned, I guess. But you know Microsoft, when with security is like TSA, right, they're always fighting the last battle. So they solved the problem they created for themselves in may. Great, you know. But you know you got to start being proactive here, guys, and I should say I'm sorry. So they have.

49:04
So this, this feature that we were talking about but I've forgotten about now, the co-pilot vision they actually detail how this thing is secure in great detail and nice right. That shows you that they did learn from recall and, by the way, it's not that I don't want to give them too much credit. This thing is so much like recall at sort of a weird high level that I mean anyone would have seen this like they should have. This is the right thing to do, but they literally list through all the ways they are trying to make this thing secure and private right. The ways they are trying to make this thing secure and private Right. And I think that's really smart, because you know you can't hear something like this and not have that same trigger warning Like are you kidding me? No, you're doing another one of these things.

49:52 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, it's got an uncanny Valley effect.

49:54 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It just every time there's a feature that came on the new pixels that's just called pixel screenshot, and the idea is that you, we all, do this. I bet my wife and I do this all the time, so I assume it's fairly standard for people. You see, you're browsing, you see something, you're like I want to remember this, and you're like I'll take a screenshot. You know it goes in and then you never see it again, whatever.

50:14 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So now there's a goodness knows.

50:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Eventually you run out of space and you delete yep, and you're like wow, yeah, why, how come I can't store any photos? Yeah, so Pixel Screenshot will look at the screenshots you take. You have to give it permission, right? It's Google, it's not like they've ever done anything bad and it will do the text recognition and image recognition. It will do all this stuff and it creates metadata so that later you can go into that app and say I was shopping for a red sweater, whatever stupid example. It's like yeah, we got red sweater and here we have that metadata because we created it the day you made the screenshot. That feature is a super limited and almost stupidly simple version of recall, because the way recall works is it's automatic. As you're doing things on your computer, it's capturing these things.

51:02 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, it's taking a screenshot the whole time.

51:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yep, and that's actually far more valuable, right? I don't always remember to take the screenshot, or know to take the screenshot, or even know how to take the screenshot, I guess, depending on who you are. So this requires you to explicitly take a screenshot. So the kind of knee-jerk reaction type people who didn't like recall will look at this and say, oh, there you go, that's what they should have. This is this, is this. This one makes sense, whereas I look at that and say I'm never going to use this because I mean, well, maybe not never, but I is so much less useful because you have, you're doing the work.

51:39 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, you know, still taking the shot. I want this thing, which is why people are comfortable with it because it's like if I don't want it to happen, don't take the picture.

51:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, yeah, but you know, I don't know, like, maybe I, maybe there's a, an answer here that's in the middle, where you do both and you give the person the option and I don't know. But microsoft went the way they went and, uh, you know, we'll see, let the where they may, but I think it's going to be a game of 52-pickup.

52:04 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's been talked about in the Discord or in the combined channel here about what happens when the lawyers learn about this. Because of discovery, you mean. Yeah, when your machine gets seized, well, they have to compel you to unlock it. Well, that's an interesting aspect. Or they're going to come up, microsoft, and say, unlock this for us. And they can't. Microsoft can't, they can't, which is the correct thing for Microsoft to do is to literally be unable. Right, that's exactly right.

52:29 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Now, this is. You know, Apple does this sort of thing. This is a. This comes up with Apple. This is the famous story, but in this case, literally, Microsoft cannot and it's the smart thing for these companies to do.

52:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
If you're going to make it secure leave yourself literally no ability.

52:49 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Sorry, I can't do it.

52:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
We're looking for some kind of a PC buy boom thing to happen. Sales are going to go and if we can just get the Mexican cartel to buy, Co-Pilot plus PC we're going to be all set.

53:04 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I mean as to buy co-pilot plus pc, we're gonna be all set, uh. So, yeah, I mean, as much as you make fun like do not understand and don't do not underestimate how well us intelligence has done compromising computers of their opposition for a long time, yeah, I think all of our eyes were opened when the pagers exploded. That's an interesting one. That's massad, but that well but it just shows.

53:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, but this is the right the us abilities are there.

53:26 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, the us did the entire order of battle of the russians invading ukraine. Even the ukrainians didn't believe it and the us had them down to the minute.

53:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Point your gun that way there are, these is going to start tomorrow.

53:37 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I mean they were saying yeah, yeah you know, we don't talk about how good the US intelligence actually is. It's so good they don't have to brag.

53:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Right. So on that note, if I didn't mention this, the NSA has started a podcast.

53:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I love everything about this.

53:53 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It is fantastic.

53:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Does it sound like Richard Campbell's voice?

53:55 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
The first episode Doesn't everything. Actually it does. The first episode is about Osama bin Laden, and it's it includes someone who are current or CIA.

54:07 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I think it's a CIA.

54:08 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, it's NSA. Okay, it's NSA. Yeah, it's a. It's. It's worth looking into it and you know the NSA. It's not a secret agency or whatever the you know the fake acronym is. So it's like not a, not a whatever. It's not a secret agency, not a secret podcast is the name of the podcast.

54:23 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Is it? I love it.

54:24 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No such podcast.

54:25 - Richard Campbell (Host)
No such podcast.

54:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's hysterical. No such agency, no such podcast. There you go, that's it. Oh, I love that. They make fun of themselves. That's the best. Yes, that's smart, yeah.

54:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, you don't get a lot of marketing out of these guys, no, so it's kind of interesting. I think it's good.

54:46 - Richard Campbell (Host)
AI and the future of national security. Well, these are the folks who are like hey, you need to start in earnest moving away from prime key-based encryption, right, which is just an implication of we know what to do about it, right, yeah, there you go, right yeah, there you go right, did you see?

55:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I was so happy nist finally updated their recommendations on on changing, uh, your passwords regularly. They said in fact, don't right, require password changes and you will no longer get certification if you do so that's funny.

55:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Um when I started throughout dot com in 2015, one of the first. I wrote a book, a bunch of kind of back to basics type articles. I introduced my friend, sean duby, who also used to write at the windows it pro about this identity expert, and he gave me this exact advice. He said changing passwords, like why it's the worst it's like people think this is like, like a, like a, like a sanitary thing, like every six months or whatever. You it's like no, you don't change your password.

55:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
In fact, the guy who wrote that recommendation in the original NIST documentation 20 or 30 years ago, NIST said in its most recent thing we didn't really understand security that well, it was all new. And the guy who wrote it recanted it some years later, saying I just made that up and it was wrong.

56:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It created more problems than it's all it falls. There's a category of things that just sound right, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Change it every six months.

56:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, but there are so many companies including, by the way, my old company iHeartMedia, and I only logged in every few months, so every time I logged in in, I need a new password. I know it's crazy, it was terrible. Yep, it's a terrible experience, but it's also really dangerous and uh, yeah, you know just whatever. Hallelujah, they finally backed down. I'm sorry that was a no, no, it's, that's, it's a good digression, and so, and then? Okay, that's that in the nsa podcast too random random stuff.

56:39 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So we kind of got through the new Copilot stuff. So this chatbot is, you know, turning into Cortana, whatever, yeah, great, I bet. And then on the Copilot plus PC thing. Now, remember, these are today all Snapdragon X computers, soon to be Lunar Lake and Zen 5 based PCs.

56:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So they won't always require Snapdragon. They will run on.

57:02 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Intel. I think that's coming. Is it November, they said I think, for the other machines? I think so.

57:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Does anybody have Lunar Lake yet?

57:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah.

57:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is it as?

57:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
impressive as so here's how Lunar Lake has fallen out. Lunar Lake is the result of competitive pressures on Intel, obviously.

57:21
Which has always been good for Intel. It's always been good for everybody, actually Microsoft too, right. But in this case they've kind of changed the way that these things come out. So Lunar Lake is specifically the U-series mobile chips. It's not the mobile chips, it's the U-series right. So there will be. I think it's. Arrow lake is the next one, which will include desktop and higher end, like h series mobile processors as well, and they'll be a little bit different. And then they're going to rev that again with what you know, xx lake, whatever the names are, um, pretty rapidly after that. So the first, the I love the lunar lake Lake thing. I don't have one, I don't have one, I'll say that, but I will.

58:07
And what I've heard from everybody is this is like the anti-Intel chip. This is Intel's apology. It is the thing they should have done 10 years ago. So it's low, it's super high efficiency. The place where it doesn't fall apart, but the place where it actually falls short of its predecessors is just basic CPU performance, right, but GPU up dramatically, mpu, obviously dramatically Integrated RAM we all do that. This is the standard SOC design these days and a bunch of other things that are on the chip you know, related to communications and so forth. Intel has this kind of unique design where um, because it's this temporary condition where they can't manufacture these, I want to say it was a four, probably four nanometer, whatever the uh design is. So the, the base package of the chip, is actually manufactured by TSMC.

59:04
They can't do 10 nanometers, and then Intel super glues them together and they make a chip out of it. So it's the right chip for mobile PCs. It's the right chip for high-end gamers. It's not for people in workstations or, uh, scientists or programmers or whatever. It's literally addressing that thing that intel is frankly, just kind of ignored for the most part for a very, very long time. So I love that they led with it and I think amd is going to come out ahead and just basically raw cpu performance. Battery life is kind of up in the air. I can tell you, this thing that I'm on now has pretty much settled in around eight hours and 45 minutes on average of battery life.

59:47 - Richard Campbell (Host)
There's a great debate on that whole the AMD chip design versus the Intel chip design because the AMD pipeline is quite short, so they're sort of counting on the fact that most instructions are simple. They don't need the longer pipeline. And when they do get the longer instructions, which they do support, they actually run them quite slowly in comparison. Where Intel has the long pipeline, it's great with the long instruction sets, but you have to have a long pipeline with a short instruction or not.

01:00:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, Intel got rid of hyper-threading infamously. Right, because it created another problem, yeah, but they're all trying to optimize for almost the same thing, right? They're all placing a bet on we're going to be a little slow here, but the overall experience is going to be great. I think in both cases it is.

01:00:28 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, and I strongly argue and it has for a long time, that CPUs were unnecessarily fast. Yeah, they're right, they're mostly waiting on memory anyway.

01:00:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's right, so interesting. So you know, we'll see. Again, it's Intel. I mean, hopefully there won't be reliability issues et cetera, but this is all looking pretty good. So, whatever the time, I can't believe, I can't remember this but October or November. If you have a Lunar Lake or Zen 5-based PC, you will get those co-pilot plus PC features, the things that launched back in May with the Snapdragon computers. In October, Snapdragon people will be able to test in the Insider program, meaning you'll have to join some whatever channel they haven't said yet, but whatever it is to get recall in preview, in November you'll be able to do that on the other machines as well. And then they've announced these other new features and these two have their own sort of schedule, but I believe they're being kind of vague on this and so we don't know exactly when this stuff's going to hit.

01:01:36
Some of this stuff is interesting. I don't know. I love this name so much I could cry because it's. It's so microsoft. Um, click to do what? What? So click to do? I know, could you just have called it what's this? Call it clippy to do, would you?

01:01:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
like what is like?

01:01:58 - Richard Campbell (Host)
what is this click to do? What can I do for?

01:02:00 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
you so click to do? Is their attempt at doing context aware AI something right? You click on an image and it's like oh did you want to.

01:02:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's the same thing as Google's. You circle an image.

01:02:12 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yes, that's circle to search Exactly right Circle to search. But you don't circle, you just click to do. You click to do, exactly yeah.

01:02:19
There you go yeah, it's not a trash can like the Mac Leo, it's a recycle bin. It's completely different and free of whatever intellectual property it is you think you are. Yeah, so yeah, the big one I'm interested in, though, because to me this is kind of the holy grail of AI. Potentially is the search experience in File Explorer right of AI. Potentially is the search experience in File Explorer right. So you know, we talked about this, I think, as soon as, or as recently as last week, this notion that Microsoft, for years, was working on this database-backed file system and never really got it to work. We've been using indexing forever. It's not great. Sometimes you can search from start or you can search from File Explorer, and one of the two will work better than the other. Sometimes they just don't work, uh, and I often find myself going to onedrivecom to find things because that experience can be so terrible.

01:03:11
so they're going to add natural language prompts to file explorer, oh wow get off of the file name thing and sort of do a recall type thing, where you're thinking like I worked on a document.

01:03:23 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You know it had whatever, uh, this metadata really, but it had whatever content, and um, then they're going to expand this to window search meaning this has been the holy grail for so long forever, and I often remember a key phrase from a document right like some line I use well I mean, and you don't know if it's in a doc or in an Excel or whatever, like I don't care, it's like I use this phrase. Show me all the things that have this phrase.

01:03:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So this is bad enough for just a normal person, right? But I have 30 years of archives. I probably write 10,000s of words a week, and I know I wrote about this.

01:03:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You should turn it into a podcast.

01:04:01 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Nobody listens to those.

01:04:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It.

01:04:02 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You should turn it into a podcast.

01:04:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Nobody listens to those. It's not a thing. It's an oral telling of my archives, which technically this has been since 2006. But yeah, I need this kind of thing and I look to see where it might appear. Co-pilot for OneDrive might be one of those places. Right, right, this might be, maybe we'll right. Um, this might be, maybe we'll see. I, I, I need for something good here.

01:04:27
It's funny how long we've been trying to do this, I know well, listen, what one of the greatest moments ever and it was a real negative for microsoft was when apple did a wwdc and I had that I don't remember his name, that french guy who was running mac os 10 at the time it's a nut job say yeah, and he would just crap all over them and how they were copying Mac and Invista and Longhorn whatever. But they did the actually. No, I'm sorry, this was Steve Jobs who did this one. They were talking I'm sorry, sorry, and let me step back. It was Tiger and they said, oh, microsoft's working on this Longhorn search thing. It's like we're like we do search in itunes, we could just do that. And then he did all these instant searches right from the finder and it was like, oh, kill me now, please. Like seriously, they just they just did it, you know, and they didn't use any advanced computer science. You know the creative platform. They were just like they just did it.

01:05:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You know, it looked good then, but apple is not notoriously good at search, I must say search is a hard problem, it's very, it turns out to be really hard, yeah, but you know, I mean this is what we want. We want to be able to hum a song into our phone and say what is that song? Again, right, the reason yeah.

01:05:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So the reason file search is hard is because for it to work properly, it actually the files need to have proper metadata right, and it's hard. And anyone look, every one of us has probably at one point or another said, all right, I'm gonna when I import from my camera I'm gonna I'm gonna say this is paris, this is paul this is stephanie, and you do that for about two seconds and you give up on it. Yeah, and then later you search for a picture of paul and paris giving stephanie the middle finger no, she was giving me the middle finger it looks looks like.

01:06:01
I hate to tell you it's what it looks like, all right, well, and anyhow, this is like you said.

01:06:08 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Hence the problem, Hence the difficulty right but this is where the machine learning comes into play.

01:06:15 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yes, because this is the holy grail. It analyzes the content, and whether it makes metadata or not, I, I guess, is sort of beside the point. I guess it would almost have to right make, just say, google photos does, for instance yes, so that you don't have to write that in that's right, so it's a good idea. It will. I feel like it's going to be solved.

01:06:35 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I need it, like yesterday, but I keep waiting for that to happen you know, it's arguably the best use of this because it is a generalized case. Yep right that this generalized language model that understands our world would work very well for generating metadata for whatever.

01:06:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I hate to interrupt this fabulous conversation, but I better get an ad in now, because we have four and the show is already an hour and a half in, and let's do another one. Let's do another one. Let's do another one. What do you say? All right, so whatever thoughts you had, hold them and we will get to those in moments. You're watching Windows Weekly, paul Therot, richard Campbell so glad you're here.

01:07:16
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01:07:29
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01:08:25
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01:09:08
But a lot of security problems. You know where they happen on the shortcuts, on the BYOD devices, on the unmanaged apps. So that's why you need 1Password Extended Access Management. It's the first security solution that brings all these unmanaged devices, apps and identities under your control. It ensures that every user credential is strong and protected, every device is known and healthy and every app is visible. It's security for the way people actually work today, now generally available to companies that use Okta or Microsoft Entra for authentication, and in beta for Google Workspace customers, so pretty much everybody's going to be able to use this. I think you need to check it out. It kind of fills in that missing piece. 1passwordcom slash windowsweekly. That's the number one P-A-S-S-W-O-R-Dcom 1passwordcom. And don't forget the slash windowsweekly. So they know you heard it here. Thank you 1password for supporting Windows Weekly and Paul and Richard and the work they're doing here, and thank you for supporting Windows Weekly by you and that special address.

01:10:11 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They know, you saw it here. You know that muddy path thing. A UX guy once told me it's called an affordance Affordance, an affordance, an affordance. Yes, the actual emergent path.

01:10:21 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's what I say when I can afford to go to a restaurant. It's an affordance.

01:10:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You can't afford an affordance, you can't handle the affordance.

01:10:29 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm having an affordance. I need to run to the men's room.

01:10:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All right, so I didn't mean to interrupt. I'm sorry. Continue on Pretend I don't In fact watch this. Boom, I'm gone, I'm gone.

01:10:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Okay, so also coming to Copilot, plus PCs. Plus PCs is a super resolution feature in the photos app. This will be delivered via a Microsoft store update right. So uses the MPU in the computer to turn, you know, low quality, low resolution images into high quality, high resolution images, yep, up to eight X supposedly. I guess we'll see Making people look better than they really do.

01:11:02
Yeah, well, you know, we all have those. You get, for some reason, you have like one copy of a photo and it's 1200 by 600 instead of you know, and it's like okay, so I this, I I'm eager to try this if it works great, you know I have a.

01:11:15 - Richard Campbell (Host)
you know I ended up remaking a bunch of the old Microsoft conference logos from like 2000 stuff, cause they were only 320 by 200.

01:11:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
This is I literally paid a designer to remake it at 1080p I know there are things like this, but there were videos that you know from the early days, that are, you know, 320 by 240 basically, and I got it. I just could we get it to even 720?

01:11:38 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I mean, I don't know everybody wants an hd version of santa versus frosty, like clearly I was okay.

01:11:44 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I was thinking of like an early bill gates video or something. Yeah, yeah, I mean that too, but um, so, okay. And then microsoft paint, which on copilot plus pcs today has a co-create feature, right, in addition to the other stuff just the language they're using. I know it's so anthropomorphic, yeah, but check this one out um generative fill and generative erase capabilities. So generative erase obviously is like magic race, or like google has and apple's about to have and right apple intelligence something stalin specialized in back.

01:12:17
Yeah, generative fill is a new feature in the photos app. On the new pixels, where you have maybe let's make a simple example you have like a square photo but you want it to be widescreen and it it fills in what it feels like should be there. Yeah, the one that's in the pixels is surprisingly good, like it's, by the way.

01:12:35 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Um, yeah, pixel nine. Yeah, oh, you got one. Did you get it? I got it. Yeah, yeah, no, and and sent and sent to. It came with a box to send the old phone away and it didn't fit in because it was too it's just swelling too far down. I got, I got it in there and it's like now it's the mail, it's the it's the mail's problem.

01:12:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, it's out of here. Uh, they're like uh, is this ted kaczynski?

01:12:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
because we got your phone and um, I didn't ask for the trade-in, you know, I think we're only offering 100 bucks anyway, it's like I know it's not gonna make make any sense. Oh, okay, right, right, right, that's right it was a 6. A slightly swollen 6.

01:13:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, and that's actually it for the new features. Although Microsoft kind of highlighted some new apps, you know, from third parties that are now running natively on ARM, there's nothing in here that's actually new to me but InDesign Illustrator Premiere from Adobe LibreOffice 1 Design Illustrator Premiere from Adobe LibreOffice. 1password, expressvpn and there's another VPN that they're not mentioning here but all the good browsers, most of the browsers. Arc is on there, I'm sorry, arc is there, yeah, arc's there. Google Drive is coming soon, vegas Pro is coming soon, fantastical whatever that is is coming soon and some other things like that. So good, okay, that that's yeah, that's good. Um, we already talked about the trust stuff behind the co-pilot, vision and the. You know there's no reason to beat that to death. Yeah, and we also also, you know we jumped and we jumped into the recall stuff. So, yeah, that just leaves us with one final thing.

01:14:03
This is kind of a related feature or related story rather. Uh, I went to a google event. I guess now it might have been. No, it was a week ago, feels like it was like an eternity ago, um, because I a lot of travel. All of a sudden, uh, so the new features coming to chromebook, chromebook plus, it's like, yeah, who cares? But no, something very interesting is happening, starting with a new version of the samsung galaxy chromebook, which is now a chromebook plus device, big, you know, 15 inch, really thin. Uh, if you're familiar with these designs, like you know, beautiful laptop yeah, beautiful, and they don't run any software.

01:14:38
They're awesome yep, and that's why you know, and the battery life is fantastic, fantastic, especially because you don't run any software on it. So, um, they're changing the keyboard for the first time since the original Chromebook Tell me they're adding a Copilot key. Tell me they're adding a Copilot key. They are adding a Copilot key. You're hilarious because that's exactly what they're doing.

01:14:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's a Gemini key, I presume.

01:14:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, they have a different name, but yes.

01:15:00 - Richard Campbell (Host)
What's the icon on it?

01:15:02 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so you're making me lose my train of thought. So when they started Chromebook, they looked at the keyboard and said, okay, there's some superfluous things going on here, and one of the things they got rid of was caps lock. And yes, you know, thank you. The caps lock is where they put something originally called the everything key, but now I think they just call it launcher. It just's just a circular icon. If you tap it, it brings up their version of the start menu.

01:15:31 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's the windows key.

01:15:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, basically the version of the windows key yeah, but they put it where caps lock was right. So now what they're doing cause any problems at all? Well, you know it's whatever. But now they're turning into something called a quick insert key and this is that context sensitive. It will, depending on what you're doing at the time you hit the thing, and it will look at what you're doing and do the right gemini thing right, um, the launcher key has moved to where the windows key is, um, and it now has a g, right, the google g, which is kind of fun. So I just thought it was kind of interesting that obviously a google logo key.

01:16:05 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I presume it would pull up Google search, but okay yeah.

01:16:08 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean honestly, you probably could search from there. I'm sure it's just like start, where you can start typing and it would do that. But yeah, in some ways this design makes a little more sense because the G key, the launcher key, is where the Windows key is right. So that makes sense to me. And then repurposing this key no one wants for anything would be fine. Using it for this is okay, I don't have any quibble with that. But it is interesting that I've spent the past however many months since they first announced it, complaining about this stupid new key and Google's like yeah, let's do one of those, let's do it.

01:16:42 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's so great.

01:16:44 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So, honestly, it's not a horrible idea, it's fine.

01:16:48 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, but the cynical approach still works right. It's like what's the worst thing they could do? Make a Go Copilot key. All right, let's go there. Yeah, we're going to do that.

01:16:56 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, it is kind of funny. Ok, do we need to halt again? Because of no, I think that was.

01:17:03 - Richard Campbell (Host)
we did the ad break just such early, but plus it was also late at the same time.

01:17:08 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, this is a little catch-all for a couple of things, but starting with some Microsoft 365. Well, I don't know if this is 365, whatever it is.

01:17:17 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They really are discontinuing the headset after all of this.

01:17:21 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so I heard I just got some inside info on this. I heard I just got some inside info on this and one of the bits I got confirmed something I've been saying for a long time, so it's nice to hear from someone else which is that when Satya Nadella took over as CEO, he had all the product groups come in one at a time for a mass execution, basically where they needed to justify their existence in right on in two ways. Uh, one is you had to make sense financially as a business and prove that you could. You know, if you didn't, now were you ramping up to that um and also that this business could make sense in this new microsoft, which was a cloud company. Right, you had it. You. You have to make sense in the context of this thing that we are.

01:18:05
You know, more globally, xbox, infamously, phil Spencer got through somehow. This would have seemed like maybe an obvious one to get rid of, but they're on that strategy now where they have subscription services, a bunch of them. Yeah, they bought a bunch of gaming studios to help bolster the content that they'll offer through there, and this is the way xbox can make sense as a business potentially right um, de-emphasize the hardware. Eventually maybe get rid of it, but for you know, but have this ongoing. You know, uh, volume licensing style thing you don't.

01:18:41 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't even have to be profitable. What you have to show is cash flow, and so turning into my, finding a way to make monthly revenue will at least postpone your death, if not actually keep you alive right.

01:18:52 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So with um hollands, hollands is kind of an interesting case. He was actually. He was really gung-ho about hollands and, to be fair, anyone who sees hollands or has experienced it would would agree it's incredible technology until chat gpt came along.

01:19:08 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This was the future ar was the future chat gpt.

01:19:12 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Just changed us, changed the course yeah, so the bit I heard was basically that um, to push this out, there was no that microsoft could come up with a few ideas about how this thing might be used, but the the strategy was literally let's just put it out in the world and someone somewhere is that is not what alice kipman did not do that right.

01:19:36 - Richard Campbell (Host)
the correct thing they should have done was published all the apis, set it loose on developers and let them go, and that's what we did.

01:19:43 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
you had to submit a proposal for markets, and he was very particular about where to go, so I'm sorry, but the thing I heard was that to to get this, to get companies excited about it, microsoft would do demos of their stuff using HoloLens and they would pay for it. And these things cost a million or more dollars each time. And what the Della said was look, we're going to do this for two years and then we're going to go back and we're going to charge them for this. And when they did that, not a single partner agreed to pay for it. Right, so they were happy to get it for free, but would not pay for it. They couldn't see the ROI.

01:20:24
Yeah, this coincides with the time period where they were actually getting ready to ship a hololens 3. There had started to be rumors about this. It wasn't a rumor, they built it. They just well, I mean. But no, I know I mean what I mean. What I mean is it it was being, you know, people were writing about it and it was true, but what they came out and said at the time was you know, we're actually looking for, kind of a bigger breakthrough with the hardware. Yep, we're going to wait and see how that pans out, but really what was happening was they just weren't getting buy-in on this and so and they and they got creamed by the us military.

01:20:58 - Richard Campbell (Host)
The us military completely distracted them with their future warfighter thing. They poured a huge amount of time and energy into it and and then their budgets got slashed Just suddenly. All of that effort was for naught.

01:21:12 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I mean, the notion of a person with a rifle running around with a HoloLens is horrifying to me. But I don't know. I'd have to go look at the exact timing and all of this.

01:21:23 - Richard Campbell (Host)
To be clear, it's not a person with a rifle, it's a person with a drone. Okay, oh, fair enough. Okay, that To be clear. It's not a person with a rifle.

01:21:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's a person with a drone. Okay, oh, fair enough. Okay, okay, that's okay. So I mean it's better than a person with a gun, I guess.

01:21:34 - Richard Campbell (Host)
No, they've got a gun.

01:21:34 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's just that the gun is strapped to a gun. Let me stop talking about that. I'm saying things that I actually, as I say them, sound terrible to me. I don't not what I want, but my guess here is that there will be third parties that come out with these platforms. Obviously, meta is one. Meta and Microsoft have partnered on this, bringing Microsoft 365 to that platform. Meta for a while, remember, was trying to sell its own kind of alternative to Microsoft 365, just like Amazon has tried to foist this kind of thing on the world, and that went nowhere and they canceled it. And I'm wondering if this isn't part of it. It's like, well, we have this partner building this thing and if you want this experience, you can get it from them and we'll, you know, maybe we'll build software for it. Yeah, we'll see, but I, you know, it was awesome technology, it, and there were some good vertical market demos, for sure, but it just didn't, you know.

01:22:30 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, it's never been a consumer device, it's been a vertical device. I've always equated it to the BlackBerry circa 1998, where you need an army of guys in white lab coats to keep the thing running and they were expensive as all get out. It's not just that the headset was $3,500. It's that it was $1,000 a month in Azure IoT per headset.

01:22:50 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's not like any consumer company would try to sell a $3,500 headset. Sorry, apple's doing that right now, but anyway, how's it going? Probably not very well, but if it ever took off, for whatever reason and of course Apple I'm sure has next-gen designs and whatever glasses down the road but you know, microsoft of course could target that. It's a very familiar development environment, so if they had to they could go there. I guess long story short is. I'm not surprised this happened. It kind of died the way a lot of Microsoft products die, which is like slowly, without a lot of talking, and then it just kind of happens and it suddenly becomes apparent to everyone we're wasting.

01:23:32 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Wasting, yeah, it's just too bad, because there was, there were some good ideas there, but well, and I don't think it's over, I think they just killed this device, like they haven't talked about layoffs oh, okay, that's a good point.

01:23:39 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So yeah, I it could be. It could be tied to that us army stuff. Maybe we're going to wait and see what happens there.

01:23:44 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, I think the, the waiting for another rev of chipsets makes a lot of sense because that was part of the line, but I think also in general, it's the breakthrough piece and I think right, you think about the implicit ella, the implicit machine learning models that we're building now around marking up documents, identifying the world, like all of that sort of stuff. The headset suddenly becomes the input device for those machine models to serve you. Yeah that's true, it's basically a dash cam on your face.

01:24:13 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I agree. The only thing is, the thing I keep thinking back to is when Microsoft was first pushing this and they also had Windows Mixed Reality headsets for consumers and they were talking about holograms and basically what we call AR. I guess Apple came out with something I think it was called ar kit, and you would have apps on a phone or an ipad that you know we're not as elegant because you're looking at a screen. But you know, I always use the example. You walk into a museum and there's a designer hello dinosaur skeleton and you hold that thing up and it shows you what the animal would look like. Yeah, it's kind of anything. So yeah, it's not the same immersive.

01:24:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Whatever the crazy part was, remember they're building for the vision pro. That was the. You know. They knew what they were gonna do.

01:24:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah yeah, and it was exactly what you should do, which is you get the api in the hands of devs as soon as possible. You have content yeah, yeah.

01:25:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But do you think killing hololens is uh should chill micros? I mean apple, well they didn't kill hololens.

01:25:12 - Richard Campbell (Host)
They're discontinued. The hololens 2 yeah, it's dead, which is a five-year-old device yeah, but they aren't doing a hololens 3 are. Well, they already built a hololens 3. The question yeah, but that's just hololens 4? What we don't know is next month they announce a new piece of hardware.

01:25:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, I'm going to guess no, because why not just wait on this? Why would you do this now? It's kind of tough timing. Maybe it's associated with the lifecycle of whatever version of Windows is underneath it. Maybe it's something like that.

01:25:44 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Might even be just fiscal budget, fiscal timing, how do you know? Maybe it's something like that. But it might even be just fiscal budget. You know fiscal timing? How do you want to report it?

01:25:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I don't know that. You know, killing a product like this, having nothing to sell, and then coming out a year from now with Thalens 3 or whatever they call it, makes any sense, you know. But who knows, look, maybe if it's glasses it will make sense. I don't know, I don't know.

01:26:02 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I don't know the answer to it, but it's like it is a five-year-old device. If you're going to get new hardware, you probably should have by now.

01:26:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So yeah, yeah, that's true. If you're German, I'm going to ask you to cover your ears for a moment. You got all right. What are you doing? There is a regulatory body in Germany that I'm going to butcher its name.

01:26:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's Bundeskartellettemant or something. I love it. The good news is they don't even know what you're trying to say, so they don't know how to handle you.

01:26:34 - Richard Campbell (Host)
BK Art A. Bk Art A.

01:26:35 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm going to just call them. Germany's Anti-Trust Authority Right Six months ago, announced they were investigating Microsoft to determine I've got to find this exact language. This is classic. If Microsoft as a whole was somehow of such paramount significance across markets that it would need to be regulated over and above the EU DMA. Surprisingly that, yes, microsoft is that significant and now they will regulate Microsoft, all of Microsoft, every product and service that they sell, as if it was under the gatekeeper clause of the DMA Wow, flight simulator. So they're going to. In other words, if you're well, I mean, it doesn't mean that they're not going to be found guilty of flight simulator. Richard, like you know, I mean you know, obviously, the weird thing about the DMA for the Microsoft guy or whatever, is Windows, obviously. What's the other Microsoft product that falls under this? Do you know? Linkedin, linkedin, what?

01:27:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
LinkedIn.

01:27:39 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah.

01:27:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, that's because the DMA is a lot about social media.

01:27:44 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, yeah, and I guess how we just choose to define this market. It's kind of the only social media service for careers and things like that, I guess I don't know Anyway.

01:27:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I was just asked by a high school to come and do a talk about LinkedIn with them. Oh jeez, okay.

01:28:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm sorry, and we are streaming right now on LinkedIn.

01:28:02 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh good, I love LinkedIn.

01:28:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Linkedin's fantastic and, by the way, I love the picture, paul, that you put in your blog post of the bundeskarte. Thank you for what a beautiful building.

01:28:15 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I had to use ai to correct this photo, uh, to make it look even better than it was originally. This is there. Was this, all this crap in front of?

01:28:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
it.

01:28:23 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It was really strange so I did generative erase on this and then a little fill wow, uh, but this is the building. There is a use for that stuff. Yeah, it's in bond germany, and oh yeah so there's basically this gives them the.

01:28:37
They enacted a lot three years ago ish to that gives them the power to do this, and the idea is that we will use what you know, that we'll look at the dma as the guide and we will apply this to other products, so you could maybe picture them looking at Teams or just Office or Bing even, or whatever, and even though it doesn't qualify to be regulated under the DMA, they can choose to do so independently. So interesting, it's just interesting. We'll see and they'll do this for five years and then they'll look at it again and maybe something has changed.

01:29:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I wonder if they'll do that to other companies like Apple, because many parts of Apple are not big enough, are experience and I don't go there as much as I used to right.

01:29:28 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But the people I know in Europe. A lot of iPhones you know in Western Europe but really I feel like the mix of Android and iPhone is more diverse there.

01:29:39
Yeah, there are a lot more Android phones, yeah, so maybe there is a case to be made that they're not as dominant or whatever, as they are in the united states. I, you know I'm not, I don't really have a good handle on it, but I do wonder about it because well, let's say they decide that iphone is obviously, the mac is not, mac os is not.

01:29:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But then they could, under the same strategy, say well, we're going to keep an eye on mac os as well.

01:30:03 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah right I mean mac os, or apple has a a monopoly of on mac os, you know. I mean you could define the market however you want. I guess it's still millions of you definitely should be.

01:30:14 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Apple run other operating systems on max, that's a great yeah, I mean I, yeah, I I'm. If I'm microsoft, under this circumstance, what do you do? I think nothing. You wait to see what they bring. Yeah, yeah, because this doesn't mean anything Microsoft's record here is pretty good.

01:30:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's better than Apple's, and what I mean by that is, you know, confronted by the GDPR, they said look, this is going to be hard to implement, it's going to take a little while. We're just going to do it everywhere. It doesn't make sense to maintain two versions of this stuff. We'll just do the right thing everywhere, right, and I like that. Microsoft doesn't always get it right like that. I'm not trying to be overly complimentary there, but if there were, well, they're not doing it with Windows 11, right? So if you're required by law in the EU to do certain things with Windows 11, to me you should just do those things everywhere. And they're not doing that.

01:31:04 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So there's a there's no, and then I mean going all the way back to windows n right like, yep, there's well windows that never made any sense, but it wasn't it wasn't a right thing. This one's for the crazy. Well, and so is the. Pulling teams out of office. Yeah, right, although I will tell you that the we just renewed all our mvp licenses, and the mvp license for your e5s does not include Teams, but then they gave you a separate license to go get Teams. Teams was free.

01:31:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't understand.

01:31:37 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So it is when it's bundled with Office, right? So the Microsoft.

01:31:44 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But then the EU demanded it be unbundled from off.

01:31:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, see, they actually technically didn't demand that. They just said we'd like you to make some changes. And then Microsoft said, okay, what would you like us to do? They'd like you to make some changes. So Microsoft lowered the price. They didn't like that. It wasn't sufficient. I guess it wasn't enough. They pulled Teams out. They just did it and they're like all right, there you go.

01:32:09
I'm like, yeah, no, we don't like that either, and there seems to be some feeling that this is the rare example of the EU not being very explicit. I feel like they've done a pretty good job about explaining what they want of these companies, but in this one case, they've never explained it and still, to this day, have not explained it. So I don't. They bent over backwards to prevent any sort of action being taken against them by the European commission in that case and it did not work. So I don't, I don't know. Oh boy, all right.

01:32:39
So, uh, about 10 days ago, ish, microsoft announced the office L. What is it? Office L? Long-term LTSC, long-term servicing channel version of office 2024. This is the you know in time version that doesn't get updated all the time, like the microsoft 365 version. Do they not want you to use this one either. They literally do not want you to use. They are, they are. They are very explicit about that. We are offering this, do not buy this, and so they obviously skew it, which, honestly, is a good play on words on my part, if you know what I'm talking about. To be horrible right On purpose, that's a little pun.

01:33:19 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's good. Make it as painful as possible to own.

01:33:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yep. So for businesses, they have a couple of versions. And now for consumers. Well, for consumers, they have one version. Office Home. They have one version for small businesses as well Office Home and Business. Both of them include Word, excel, powerpoint and OneNote, which is free anyway. The Home and Business includes Outlook plus the right to use the apps for commercial purposes. They're both licensed for only one PC or Mac. And on the well, I mean obviously Windows 10 and 11 are the only supported versions. So they work on that. They work on the most recent three versions of the Mac OS. They require a Microsoft account, which is kind of interesting, and an internet connection.

01:34:01
And someone looked into this because they were like wait a minute, what's happening here? And I guess you have to. It does a heartbeat check every once in a while just to make sure your license is good or whatever. So it will go into some kind of reduced functionality mode. If you're offline for two months or whatever, you just got to check in with the home office every once in a while. So same basic features we talked about 10 days ago that new default office theme, which isn't that new. It was new a couple of years ago.

01:34:27
Open document 1.4 support. Yada yada, it doesn't matter, it's not very interesting, but you know this is. These are the versions that you buy when you don't want to get a subscription and you just want, and you just maybe you're a normal person, you have one computer. See to me. I look at this, I'm like, oh, I couldn't, I couldn, but I do like the idea of a thing that's not going to bug me to save to OneDrive, because OneDrive is not part of this Right. So Could I look at the code somehow and just maybe make that change in the version I do have? I kind of like the idea of that, you know like a certain registry key that that Mark was found.

01:35:00
I'm convinced there's something I it has to be, somewhere it's controlled, somewhere it's you know what's this?

01:35:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What is this? I didn't hear about this.

01:35:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So if you open, so I don't use OneDrive folder backup right, and I have my own system for doing things, so I like to default save to the desktop. I don't leave anything on my desktop. That's not what that's for.

01:35:24
It's just a scratch space because I write, move my things to where I want them. It's still in OneDrive, right, I'm still using the service, right. But when you do this, it's painful. It's a multi-step process, a very specific configuration. I go into Microsoft Word, tell it I want to save it to the computer and not to OneDrive. Here's the folder. It throws up a banner every time. We could be backing this thing up.

01:35:49
You know, we could auto save. Come on, you can auto save for the desktop. You're just being a jerk, but it just bugs you all the time. So the perpetual version, which they stopped using that language, by the way, but these limited time, by the way, but these limited time, whatever they are, one pc versions, perpetual license, the boxed version, the box version, um I, I assume it's not going to bug you about this, because they can't assume you have one drive. So, oh, I like it. I like it too. I'd like that. That is a buy one. Sure, there's a register key. We just have to hunt that. I know, I want to. I'm gonna. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try otherwise it's.

01:36:26 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I guarantee every update resets the key, but you know, whatever it's otherwise, you never expect identical, except for one byte.

01:36:33 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm going to. So I will, that's probably true too, but I will write an app that is kind of a D and certification thing for Windows 11, and part of it's going to be a background service, a service, rather, that just runs.

01:36:46 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That res runs, all those things again.

01:36:47 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, it doesn't reset. I'm going to look at it and see if anything changed and when it changes, it's going to pop up and show me, because I need to see, I want to know yeah, when and how this stuff changes. That really irritates me. Great project yeah, that's, that's that will happen.

01:37:01 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I can't just keeping snapshots of the reg and then comparing changes to really exactly I mean.

01:37:06 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
The problem is that on update there's going to be thousands of changes, like yeah now, I mean most people would probably just want it to make those changes every time, not worry about it. I want to see when it happens.

01:37:17 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's important to me to know what piece of offensive stuff, yeah, so you do like a calculator, you have a paper tape yeah yeah, well, and it's, it's personalized, right.

01:37:27 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So I'm I mean, I'm writing it for myself, but but anyone could go through the list of things and say I want this, this, this and this, and someone else might have different ones. So it will compare your configuration with the actual configuration and see if anything changed. You know, and I think it's going to show us, I haven't done it yet, so I this is what I'm guessing Going to write a visual basic.

01:37:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What are you going to?

01:37:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
write Uh no, it's going to be in COBOL, um no it's, it's it's going to be a C sharp. Uh, uh, it will be well, it's probably going to be WP net. Nope, it is not net.

01:38:04 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yes, yeah okay um last one before you do that, let me do a pause.

01:38:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Last piece for the break yeah, I know, I see, but okay, go ahead. It's a goodie, it's quick, it's just quick on this week in intel is doomed.

01:38:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Bloomberg reported that arm arm the company, like the company arm, offered to buy intel not the whole thing, nope, uh, the product group which a little bit of it the right thing means they were offered by the right thing, the chip design part of this.

01:38:36 - Richard Campbell (Host)
The chip designs, not the. That's just no foundry, yeah, which is what arm is well, and qualcomm wants the foundries, qualcomm wants the fabs, they want the fabs and arm want the fabs.

01:38:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Maybe we split it up.

01:38:49 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, the thing is, this is what happens when a company like this unravels. Is there a home for all the pieces I think there is. For Arm to come out publicly and say this now signals to a big private equity firm we have homes.

01:39:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Let's go cut up the body it, put it in play. Basically, all we need now is carly fiorina to run it, yes, and have a.

01:39:11 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I have a blue ipad or an ipod.

01:39:14 - Richard Campbell (Host)
No one else is gonna have it but, you know, this is what happens to old companies who can't modernize is that that makes sense.

01:39:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Do you think that will?

01:39:23 - Richard Campbell (Host)
happen. Any of this will happen. It's a question of timing. This comes down to price.

01:39:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The good thing about a breakup like that is you don't have the issue the monopoly issue right? No, it makes it a little easier to get regulatory approval.

01:39:38 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Plus Arm's, a UK company which the SEC is going to be a whole lot happier about.

01:39:42 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, the fact that it almost doesn't matter what that company is, because I think the chip design part, I think most people are going to say who cares? You know like it's the fab thing they need to keep in the United States.

01:39:54 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I mean, there's an argument for you know what's ITAR here, like what needs to be protected, but that doesn't mean you don't create a US subsidiary. Like all of that is trivial, but the bottom line is like the chips need to keep flowing. It's trivial, but the bottom line is like the chips need to keep flowing, right. Uh, and separating those entities like there's a strong case for this will. This is what gerstlinger was talking about the first place. If you separate these entities, yep, you will actually get more better intel chips in the process I mean, this was the argument for splitting up microsoft.

01:40:21 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
What would a microsoft office company look like that if they? Had to live off targeted other platforms and could do what they wanted. They probably would have gone to the web a lot faster and better with actual offline apps and so forth.

01:40:33 - Richard Campbell (Host)
So they were held off of being on the phones for a couple of years because of a certain someone. But anyway, I mean the point here is like to me, this play is totally all right. The pieces are in place, like in comes a large. That we've already. We've seen in. We've seen the positioning for an activist share, a board member. We've seen someone interested in the fabs. We've seen someone interested in the intellectual property.

01:40:58
Right, you're ready, you're ready now to go, fascinating pull down a few hundred billion dollars and make the moves so I just want to warn you.

01:41:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
if this does happen, we're going to have to turn this attic into a war room. We're going to do a 24-7 broadcast. We're going to pull people in this is a huge story. Breaking news Are you ready? I'll be pulling you both in.

01:41:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's the end of an era.

01:41:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It would be, wouldn't it? It's huge.

01:41:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
They're the? U, the US steel of the chip making markets.

01:41:30 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I can see ARM, saying it's ARM with Intel inside.

01:41:39 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh gross, it's ARM with, maybe with x86 IP inside maybe.

01:41:43 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, and therein lies one of the interesting things is, a lot of these emulators have been hampered by the fact that Intel has been litigious about it.

01:41:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Emulators could get dramatically better. And there's also the issue of the cross-licensing with AMD right.

01:41:57 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Doesn't that have to be preserved? I think that will happen.

01:42:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
According to the reg, it technically on any acquisition has to be renegotiated. Those agreements do not survive an acquisition.

01:42:10 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But I feel like that's going to be one, especially if it goes to ARM. This maybe has to be part of that deal. It's the only reason ARM would want them. Yeah.

01:42:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But you know ARM and Qualcomm. Arm probably has cross-licensing with.

01:42:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
AMD as well? I would bet Possibly. Amd is an ARM licensee, but the reason that AMD was brought into existence was to provide an alternative supplier, and if you've got ARM able to emulate the instruction set perfectly, there's your alternative supplier.

01:42:37 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's a good point. So ARM is suing Qualcomm because their x86 emulating Snapdragon X chips are not giving them an extra license fee, or whatever it is Right. Snapdragon x chips are not being, you know, not giving them an extra license fee, or whatever it is right. Um arm has its own ideas about pc type designs based on arm right. They they have their own reference designs. If they could get intel x86 rights, they would then have something superior and might force qualcomm to bite, because otherwise their competitors will have it and they'll have some advantage.

01:43:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All your future computers will be ARM based, emulating x86.

01:43:12 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I have to say it just popped. It popped into my brain, but the thought that ARM might be doing this just to screw over Qualcomm is especially delicious to me and it totally makes sense and it's what good competition looks like honestly yeah, this is interesting, so you think this might happen I think it's in it's, unless, yeah, a new ceo comes in that can actually write the ship.

01:43:34 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Intel needs to become what these guys are offering anyway right, that was what pat gelsinger was talking about do? Yeah, and was planning to do, and possibly the best way to do it is you think the board just hasn't given him enough time? Uh, I think he can't move the ship, the ship's too heavy and slow, right, so you mentioned the one way to uh. So you have a choice with these ships. You either cut them up or you let them hit an iceberg, like one or the other and neither of those is great.

01:44:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But but if the amd government would let that happen honestly.

01:44:04
But if the amd relicensing had to happen maybe that's something that is being discussed now and has to happen before we can say okay, now we're going to this- is where you send a high level emissary from the government and to say boys, this is too important to our national security, this is how it's, this is how this is going to come down well, I think from the us government perspective they're going to say, yeah, we don't care about your stupid IP, you just have to make fabs, maybe.

01:44:32
Remember the Chips Act prevents IP from going to China. That's also considered a national asset.

01:44:41 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I want them saddled with Intel's last generation designs. Why are these phones running so hot? My phone has a fan. What's happening? You know that's the perfect thing to happen to China 14 nanometer or nothing.

01:44:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Exactly, and there's such a good case for they could actually bring you know. You do have the government emissary who just makes sure that the FTC signs off on it, that these legal constraints are taken care of.

01:45:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I bet you this is happening right now which you facilitate a graceful dismantling. That's absolutely possible, yeah.

01:45:13 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That could be right now, and that's why you do these public announcements, right Like you put that out there to show these pieces are in place. None of this is a surprise.

01:45:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think also it's so technical and inside baseball that you're not going to see a lot of coverage of it. Maybe here is the only place. It's going to be duller than anything.

01:45:31 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, I mean, I think everyone has this vague idea that Intel is this thing. I was just reminded of this today because my mother called it's US Steel.

01:45:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's exactly as you said, Richard my mother asked it's okay.

01:45:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
My mother one time, who doesn't understand my job, asked me how Microsoft was doing. You know, I think she might think I work there and I said, oh, they're doing good. And then she said what about the other company? And I'm like what? She goes? Remember it was like it was Microsoft and then it was the other company. I said Apple. She goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, those guys. I'm like, yeah, they're doing great.

01:46:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
How are they doing? They're the biggest company on Earth.

01:46:12 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Paul is your job secure is what I really want to know, but I think for a lot of people that's Intel too.

01:46:14 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Microsoft's the second biggest one right there's like this vague, you know like they're a thing.

01:46:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
People might think that Intel is those laptops.

01:46:28 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's at intel that's right, that's right and that probably helps with people like that might be the association aware of that yeah, that mostly wintel is a term from 2001, right like it's sure it's been 20 something years man, hey, windows is a term from 1985.

01:46:43 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
What's your point, you know? I mean I yeah, I don't know.

01:46:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Wow, that's okay, this is big I mean whatever, make a note of this. Yeah now, intel rejected the buyout offer.

01:46:53 - Richard Campbell (Host)
But that's well they should. They don't really have a choice until the board tells them otherwise, right or the shareholders.

01:46:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They could go, arm could make it.

01:47:00 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I was gonna say it's the shareholders that I mean. Ultimately, it's gonna be the problem, because if you want to do, send every signal you can that you're in control, everything's good. Yeah, we're going to be fine. Pay no attention to that giant white thing in the sky.

01:47:11 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You have to present a completed plan right, yeah, this is really good. But again, you use these public pieces to put all to show. Okay, this is where the plan came from. We were keeping a secret. It was out there.

01:47:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Right there, right, but we had to put all the pieces together. Juicy, I'm looking forward to uh.

01:47:33 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, you could wake up any day that's the thing this could happen to an announcement tomorrow could happen six months from now you know, appreciate it.

01:47:38 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I swear to god we're going to the.

01:47:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We're going to the. Uh oh, look at the stock chart. Wait you're like a.

01:47:45 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You're like, um, like a news organization that like proactively writes yeah, we want bad news, an obit for some celebrities. Yeah, I'm writing the obit right now.

01:47:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, uh, let's, let's, uh, let's go to the one one year.

01:47:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, boy thing look at that, look at that, holy camoly look at is two years. What's two years like?

01:48:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
it's just the there was a climb, climb, climb until, uh, the peak, early 2024, and then it has been downhill all year. Yep, so something. What happened at the beginning of the year? Sure people believed this is the I believe pat gelsinger is going to make the transition growth. And then this is oh, it's not going to happen. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, it's not great. Wow. I mean, if you believe that the stock market is the wisdom of the crowds or something, this is I don't believe that, but it's.

01:48:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It still establishes the worth of the company matters.

01:48:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You know, I I actually wish it was well, this is why it's in play, because the price is so low. That's why it's in play.

01:48:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
That's right, yeah it makes it yeah, the sharks are circling, of course.

01:48:53 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, it makes it feasible to have enough cash to be able to do the maneuvering here.

01:48:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Wow wow, wow. I don't normally follow, you know finance like that, because I'm, you know, I'm yeah, of course, accuse myself from investing in any of these companies, but uh, still, that's fascinating it.

01:49:06 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It is.

01:49:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is like barbarians at the gate.

01:49:09 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, it's tough, it's hard, it's not good. You know every company that was once like big and important. You know WordPerfect, ashton, tate, all the companies that Microsoft killed, who?

01:49:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
are these companies you talk?

01:49:21 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
about A long time ago.

01:49:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Lotus.

01:49:23 - Richard Campbell (Host)
This is more standard oil. I think you're right.

01:49:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is West Steel, this is standard oil. This is a massive wow.

01:49:30 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You take apart the old guy because it's not running well.

01:49:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is the book you should write, Richard. We finally found your book.

01:49:38 - Richard Campbell (Host)
No, please.

01:49:40 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
No, I got enough pressure on the books as it is you know I used to pester Mary Jo to help write me a book, Maybe.

01:49:46 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I should start doing that to you. Yeah, me sure I should, Because writing with you is a pleasure. I think that would be great.

01:49:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'd buy it. Speaking of books, my son's book came out.

01:49:57 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Oh yeah, I watched that show. I saw him in action. Here it is Salt Hank A five napkin situation.

01:50:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's so great. He's going to be on this week in google. We're gonna talk to him about the book. He's on book tour right now. Look at that pickled onions book tour in san diego. Photography is gorgeous oh, it's a gorgeous, but it's really not. It's food porn. It's not a cookbook. It is yeah it's a book to make you go oh I need.

01:50:24 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, that's, that's, that's how I uh design windows, uh everywhere, you know, same thing. It's just porn. Yeah, yeah, you know, sure, windows porn. It's a picture. There's a picture of an intel 8086 processor.

01:50:37 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I should be taking yeah baby we've been taking more photos of these whiskey bottles through this.

01:50:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, you could do that you absolutely could do that. Hey, let's take a little time out now I can, because we're going to do the xbox segment and that's coming up next as you uh, continue through your your journey through the land of wintel. Uh, but first a word from our sponsor. It's actually about intel with two l's intelligence uh, our show today brought to you by Flashpoint. You know, governments have intelligence agencies to keep an eye on flashpoints around the world and what's going on. As a business, you need the same info. You need Flashpoint For security leaders.

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01:54:04 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I'm so sorry.

01:54:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, I think this Intel thing, for instance, big blip on my radar, all of a sudden.

01:54:10 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yep Very interesting, especially the Xbox news that is.

01:54:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, that's why I listen.

01:54:15 - Richard Campbell (Host)
As a Don't, we have an Xbox thing now. Didn't I hear one?

01:54:20 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
There's a reason. Richard does the whiskey thing after Xbox, and this year it's been painfully obvious.

01:54:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Richard, are you implying that you might have created something for us? No, I thought. Uh, I thought Kev had it.

01:54:33 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Kevin, do you?

01:54:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
have a, is that it? That's not much. Can you do better than that?

01:54:42 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Listen, if this was my wake-up alarm, I'd still be asleep. Nope, that's pretty good, do it again, baby.

01:54:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, this is the backwards Halo theme.

01:54:55 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Okay, yeah, if you play it backwards, it says Xbox is dead.

01:54:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It is not dead, and it's time now for the Xbox segment. Do it again, baby.

01:55:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Not a lot of great news this week, but there was a Tokyo game show, so Microsoft showed off a bunch of new games that were coming to Game Pass. None of these really jump out at me. They're remastering the original StarCraft and StarCraft 2, so those are coming to PC Game Pass and Game Pass Ultimate. This is actually one of the other problems with Game Pass, because with Game Pass Standard they're not getting a lot of these new games day and date right. So as they announce these things, they're also announcing games that are coming to Xbox Game Pass Standard that are actually older games that have been elsewhere before. You know whatever. So there's just nothing.

01:55:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't know it's hard to get excited about both new and old in one. I know, I know.

01:55:56 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Bunch. There is something, something that Indiana Jones game is coming on December 9th, which I feel like we knew, but I don't know. Like I said, nothing super, super exciting sticks out there, which is a good segue to this next thing, because they just announced the first game pass games coming to, yeah, the first games coming to, game pass for october, uh, and will be the show 24. So that's, that's a good one. One year after the acquisition oh yeah, how did I write? It finally, I wrote first game pass.

01:56:28
Titles of october reveal a bonanza of activision titles is what I wish we were discussing, but no, it's not what happened um yep, somehow they feel like they're turning game pass into a humble bundle, right, it's like where you oh god get your old titles from yeah, I mean, that was actually the original strategy for it, oddly, but yeah, so yeah the show 24 yeah, so the show 24 and open roads are actually two games that were previously made available on xbox game pass, oh, but now they're coming to game pass standard for the first time. So these are. These are two examples of older games coming, not not old, but games that launched day and date originally on the old version of the subscription and are now coming to the version.

01:57:14 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I like this strategy. You've run out of games to deploy, so you create a new standard for what game pass is, and then you slowly move the games over to them to have a new release schedule. This is brilliant the games over to them as to have a new release schedule this is brilliant.

01:57:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Um, I know brilliance is a strong word, uh so it's brilliant and then other games, I don't know genius, yes.

01:57:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Inscription mad streets and sifu. Yeah, I don't know starfield, uh, it's been.

01:57:46 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It's been a year. How long starfield been a couple? Oh, it seems like more than that I love, so I feel like it might be. Yeah, so there's a new dlc coming um, for it's called shattered space the story 23. So yeah, more than a year yep, and that's coming xbox consoles, pc and game pass game. It's going to be so hard to even explain. Will it come to Game Pass standard on day one? I think not, but I guess we'll see.

01:58:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is this a hit? Is it a hit, or did we expect more from the creators of Elder Scrolls and Skyrim?

01:58:22 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yep, I don't know it's hard to say. I do think Game Pass with its day one thing has kind of muddled the water a little bit. Um, when you bring a uh, a movie that might have gone to Netflix or to I'm sorry, to the theaters and you just put it on Netflix or Apple TV on day one, and it is it a hit.

01:58:39 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I mean, I, I don't know, like somebody built a spreadsheet about how much money they're throwing away by putting it on game pass and everything has changed uh, yeah, I don't know.

01:58:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I don't know. It's getting hard to gauge these things which I think, honestly, from the perspective of these companies, might be part of the plan I mean maybe it's better if we don't know because they get to control the narrative.

01:58:59
No, I mean because they can kind of control it. You know, I don't know. And then this I don't wasn't sure where else to put this this happened just, or I became aware of it just before we started the show. But uh, former microsoft executive jay ollard is joining amazon where he's going to report to former microsoft executive. No, I love it a little cult.

01:59:20 - Richard Campbell (Host)
A little cult's being built inside of amazon and they own a. This is awesome.

01:59:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's weird, it's did allard work for penne that no?

01:59:29 - Richard Campbell (Host)
no, he did not so allard's, allard's older school than penne is like yeah and he was a big shot. Right, he was what he run when he was the cto and something else of xbox for many years he's most famous, stupidly, for the courier tablet that never came into existence that was killed at the last minute because it didn't have email.

01:59:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so the fun coincidence there is that Courier was killed by Stephen Sanofsky, who was Panos Panay's old boss.

01:59:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So it all goes around, comes around.

01:59:59 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
But here's Gerald's real claim to fame. In 1994, he tried to convince Bill Gates that the Internet was real and we need to start paying attention to it. That's where I know that. And Gates ignored him and he finally, internet tidal wave happened Well.

02:00:12 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Silverberg was in on that too, back in the day.

02:00:14 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Oh no, he wasn't the only one, but I mean, but he was. But he penned the original, he explained it in plain English and, you know, had it distributed around the company. We need to do this, and he was an early voice.

02:00:24 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And listen. But listen, that's not a bad team to revamp that stack. Yeah, a set of outsiders, you know that might even have a little Cortana contaminant and they're now trying to figure out how to turn that into a product that Amazon cares about.

02:00:43 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, so another Microsoft coincidence. The reason Amazon has a lot is because a guy named charlie kindle, who used to be calm, and whatever else at microsoft, actually media center, uh, home server, a bunch of stuff he was.

02:00:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
He was in the dev dev for a while too he was.

02:00:58 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, no, he's a great guy, calm is he was. Basically he was. I don't want to say an architect. It's kind of one of the gods I think he was one of the calm gods, so he tried to get microsoft to do what became it, and mike didn't see a use for it, so he left and went to amazon. So there's a whole little circle of inbreeding going on here.

02:01:16 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That is not, not not necessarily healthy. It's a small group, really, you know, yeah, that's interesting, all right I presume panos recruited, a lard must be. Huh, oh, that's interesting. Yeah, that would be my presumption. Bring in your dream team.

02:01:31 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, so Mary Jo is the one who told me about this, and my response was that's insane. And then, who is reporting to who? Right, you know, because oh yeah, no question yeah, so I guess it's Jay Allard is reporting to.

02:01:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Panos panay, panos panay. Wow, yep, I'm pumped.

02:01:51 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Are you pumped I?

02:01:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
you know, I'm as pumped as I could be, I guess I want you to go to an event with your in your hand and have panos. Take it from you.

02:02:01 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yes, right and then a program that's only respond to his voice. He's such a jerk.

02:02:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think we're due for a voice assistant that is better, you know what, and Allard got out at the darkest time at Microsoft.

02:02:16 - Richard Campbell (Host)
He got out in 2010.

02:02:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's what I was trying to.

02:02:21 - Richard Campbell (Host)
just look up what's he been doing since he had like a business for law enforcement.

02:02:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, it was a company that could recover stolen bikes, which sounds kind of weird.

02:02:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He worked at Intellivision for one day. This is not good, I know I can see Panos coming to him. He's what we would call a serial entrepreneur. You can help people recover their stolen bikes or you can change the world.

02:02:49 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I like it. Did you just want to make sugar water for the rest of your life?

02:02:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Exactly, you figured out what I was talking about. All right, let's take a little break. Back of the book coming up. We've got a tip of the week, an app of the week, a runner's radio pick of the week, and then Brown lick us back baby Never left, baby never left, net. Well, okay, you want to be pedantic about it. That's richard campbell on your right. In between, we're making a paul thurot sandwich and you are watching windows. Weekly soft nougaty center today he's tasty, isn't he?

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02:06:32 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Let's kick things off with paul thorat's tip of the week so microsoft has made windows 11 24 h2 available, which means you can now go download the iso unless you have an arm computer, but that's coming. So just google download windows 11 11 ISO to get to the site. If you're on Bing, you'll probably get there eventually, and there's a bunch of different options. But the advice here, or the tip, so to speak, is that you should have some kind of external recovery media, of whatever kind. You can make a recovery disk in Windows, but I actually think it's better to use the windows 7 I'm sorry the windows 11 installation media I think you should use a windows 7 installation.

02:07:13
It would probably be faster it. Honestly it hasn't changed much, oddly, but yeah, so the windows burn a new burn a new driver, burn a new one, yeah. So if you have one, you should always have at least one, like usb c, whatever, um. Yeah, it's time to refresh. That is the is the point, um, and maybe you need the iso for other reasons for vms or whatever but um, that is available now.

02:07:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
She should grab that as soon as I get my snapdragon elite developers kit, I'm gonna burn myself an iso of windows 24 h2, are you?

02:07:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I don't trust you.

02:07:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't trust you. I don't know, maybe something else, I don't know, we'll see. All right, well there you go.

02:07:56 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
So Adobe announced and released the latest versions of Photoshop and Premiere Elements. So these things are, you know, $99 each new, 79 and upgrade, or as a bundle together for one 49,. I would wait for a sale. They're always on sale, or not always, so this is not a subscription product.

02:08:15
No, this is the. You know. Again, they don't call it this, but the perpetual thing. So, um, you can, uh, premier is still not available through the store. So if you buy it through the Microsoft store, the Photoshop version on that you buy it directly from adobe or from wherever else is, uh, limited to two, I believe, and you have to. You know it's the type of thing. We have to deactivate it, remember to do that. But, um, just it's, it's the stuff that's in photoshop. That is like normal people would need, you know. So they have some of the generative array stuff and, you know, the ability to adjust or create a depth of blur in a photo. That doesn't have it.

02:08:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Or so a lot of the AI stuff is migrating into elements. That's interesting.

02:09:02 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah. So I think elements based on many, many years of experience, I would say, is the type of thing you upgrade maybe every second or third year. Many years of experience, I would say, is the type of thing you upgrade maybe every second or third year. You don't go year to year to year. It's not always that big of an update.

02:09:13 - Richard Campbell (Host)
If you're going to go down that path, you get Creative Cloud right.

02:09:15 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, I mean, if you never want to stop paying Adobe, they actually have that plan $35 a month, something like that.

02:09:22 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's a lot of money, yeah, but what do you need? Right, if you want all the bits and you want to be up to date, that's the big one. Yep, you know you know this is for I'm surprised they still sell standalone software like creative cloud or nothing I think I'm surprised they make premiere elements.

02:09:38 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Honestly I I photoshop elements I can make a case for because it's just kind of a standard need, but maybe they just sell enough of it.

02:09:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It makes sense I think it's a gateway drug. It gets agree.

02:09:48 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I think it's gateway drugging.

02:09:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Yeah, that could be.

02:09:51 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And I'm sure there's 101 teases inside those softwares.

02:09:54 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Well, that's part of the whole product. A little yellow banner appears. You know, if you get to save this to Adobe Cloud.

02:10:00 - Richard Campbell (Host)
you can, you know, and I bet you anything that will apply your $99 immediately to that's three months of Creative Cloud.

02:10:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
For three months of creative, your month and a half of that's it. Or whatever creative club. Yeah, maybe I can never remember if I have a subscription to adobe or not, because, yeah, I periodically get angry, yeah, and cancel it, yep, and then I go, oh, but I need it, and then I resubscribe I mean, I would argue we're on this path right because it's become very normal now for you to sign up to netflix to watch a set of shows and then cancel and so forth.

02:10:34 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Those are a little further down the consumer utilization path than these things.

02:10:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Adobe knows this, so they charge you when you come back. Well, a lot of their subscribers, they want you to sign up for a year, right, and if you cancel after three months, they still charge you.

02:10:52 - Richard Campbell (Host)
And you know who's further down the path are New York Times, weipo, those kinds of things, because when you go to cancel those, they immediately offer you a discount year. Right, yeah that's right.

02:11:01 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I just did this. Yeah, it's kind of amazing. Yeah, anyone who has had a Sir serious radio, whatever it's called, has done this, where they try to charge you the full amount and you get a call. You just talk your way through it and it's like all right. I think they paid me actually to use it.

02:11:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's bizarre. I think Ben Stiller should do a show called the Retention Division, yeah, where it's all about the people behind the scenes who are there to get you to sign up.

02:11:26 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You're going to have the mole on the inside. Who's like, listen, I don't like what they're doing to you either. I had a person at RCN. They would hang up on me and I finally got through to someone. I'm like I think they're overcharging me. She goes, they are. It was unbelievable. This is good.

02:11:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is good. I think we see a new Apple Plus TV show. There you go, they are overcharging. The retention division. You thought you were out, but you're not. You're never getting out, baby. You're never getting out. We're keeping you.

02:11:55 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Now, when I canceled the cable internet service here to switch to the fiber, it's like can you tell me why you're canceling? It's like I'm buying a faster product for less money. Any questions? Oh, you know though.

02:12:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I know, though you could I say, like I died, I moved, I've tried everything. Yeah Right, I'm calling for Leo Laporte. He's dead now and he doesn't want his Comcast subscription.

02:12:19 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I must have told this, but I could give it to you for 99 cents a month. When the Jehovah Witnesses would come to the door, my friend Gary, who got me into writing, would tell him he was all set because he was a Masonite and the first time he said it I was like Masonite and he goes yeah, it's a countertop. But they always felt. They were always like, oh, that's great, they thought there was like a I don't know what they thought. Like a Mennonite, maybe like a Mennonite or something, a Masonite, a Masonite.

02:12:52
I'm a Korean myself myself, but okay, fine, I've reached the level of corian.

02:12:55 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, I'm like a wizard or something now. Granted, all the way, I like my countertops radioactive all right, richard campbell.

02:13:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yes, run as radio.

02:13:03 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Ah yeah, I got an adult show this week. I've talked to nicky chapel, who's a fellow podcaster. Actually does a podcast on the governance of m365.

02:13:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, it's called the m365 compliance podcast if I need to get to sleep sometime soon I will.

02:13:17 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You know this is about being a grown-up and then a lot of systems that's their job right, and we dug into the classic one, for you know there's a big, a lot of pressure right now on turning on co-pilot for m365. But it includes that little phrase you have to make sure your data estate is in order, oh God. And so it's like what does this mean really? And to Nikki's credit, like she knows exactly what it means. Here you go, first off, knowing you will never be in order. Right, it's a path just like every other security requirement.

02:13:49
All you're doing is trying to be better and it involves tools like Purview and in general. You know, especially she's at the beginning because she does this for a lot of companies, like the 80 year Pareto's law says it's mostly about retiring old data, about at least moving it into something that identifies as an archive to be left out of co-pilots machinations, because it just causes problems. Uh, and we also dove down this, you know, pick a small project, pick an eternal project, like if you're gonna, if you're gonna do this, uh, and so you're just taking off pieces of the organization, like hr, and getting it well organized and then maybe that can be co-pilotified and and so on. So it was very constructive to have, you know, to talk to somebody who's really done it for a bunch of organizations, to say this is what it means to move down that path and have more confidence that you're this thing, you've, you're, you're this thing. Your employers always presume you have squared away. Data governance is closer to squared away and that's Lawyers always presume you have squared away.

02:14:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Data governance is closer to squared away. That's all I got. That's it.

02:14:55 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well then, I think you have earned your brown liquor pick of the week time I was looking back through the list and I realized a couple of three times now over the past couple of months because I've been reorganizing here I dug into a stash of whiskey and I think I had this Russell's on the shelf there stored away in a box because it moved with us for a couple of years, maybe three. So it was an excuse to open it up and take a taste and you've never heard of it, I imagine. Russell's Reserve is a bourbon. It is one of the. It's in fact the only secondary brand product owned by Wild Turkey. I've never talked about Wild Turkey on the show before. It's one of your sort of well, kind of whiskeys. It's one of the originals and it's got a story behind it, like all of them do I always?

02:15:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
associate it with drunks, to be honest.

02:15:48 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Well, when you think about your basic, bourbons, right, like when you talk about real basic bourbon. What do you talk about? You talk about wild turkey, you talk about jim beam. You probably talk about jack as well, although nominally jack is not a bourbon because of the maple filtration it's a. But these are all kind of well. They're well basic, basic whiskeys that are reasonably priced. Are they good? Often mock? Well, that's a great question and I'm glad you asked it Right.

02:16:16
In this particular case we talk about the story of wild turkey, and what's been a lot of time because we're not actually talking about wild turkey per se is as a gentleman by the name of Thomas Rippy back in 1891 builds the old Hickory distillery outside of Lawrenceburg. They survive prohibition but kind of lose their brand. They kind of go away from that and really, as they get back into distilling bourbon in the 1930s, they're just selling it to wholesalers. And this is where an organization called Austin Nichols, named for the man, is one of the largest wholesalers of the whiskey that's being made by the old Hickey distillery. And then in 1940, an executive at Austin Nichols, a guy named Thomas McCarthy, takes some of the samples of the versions that the old Hickory distillery is making with him on a turkey hunting trip, and they're good enough that his friends keep asking him for that wild turkey bourbon. This might be an apocryphal story. Nobody can really nail it down. It sure sounds like it, but that's where the name sort of comes from, and so I mean it's important. The fun part is thinking here.

02:17:17
This staple whiskey was originally made by a company that was not doing their own distillation. Austin Nichols created the labels and actually ran that as a business for several years, buying from the other distillery, until they finally purchased the distillery in 1971 and named it the wild Turkey distillery. That didn't last for very long. Nine years later, pernod Ricard buys it. That's one of the big conglomerates buying up alcohol all over the world, although they spun it off to the Campari group in 2009. And that's how it's resided ever since. And there's a dozen, maybe 18 different versions of Wild Turkey you can buy and we're not going to talk about any more. We're going to talk about Russell's instead, because Russell's is actually about a man, a guy named Jimmy Russell. Jimmy Russell went to work for Austin Nichols in 1953. And he still works there. His son has joined the company. He's been a master distiller now for 60 plus years. His son has been a master distiller for 20 years and they in and back in. In 1998 the company basically said you know, if you want your own label, we'll produce it for you. And so russell's reserve is literally the master distiller of wild turkey, still making his own whiskey from wild turkey. So their first release was in 2001.

02:18:39
You don't make a whiskey that quickly. It clearly was just directly from the wild turkey collection and it was a 101. This is basically the 2005 style, which is a 90 proof, 45% ABV. They also make a rye. So literally the same mash bill.

02:18:57
You know, if there's anything you can complain about with wild turkey, it's that it's awfully sweet and there's a reason for that. The mash bill is 75% corn, 13% rye that's your flavor grain and 12% barley, which is a relatively high amount of barley. But with that much corn you kind of need more barley because you need the amylase from the barley to digest the corn and make it into ethanol instead of methanol and poisoning people. So if you're going to run corn that high, you got to run barley high, which is one of the reasons this thing smells like candy, right, like it is sweet, sweet. Yeah, you know what Lucky Charms has nothing on this. It's very sweet. It's not burning at all. A little bit of heat comes down. Real nice, like not a lot of spice to it, it's. It's pretty harmless. It's like a sugar drink, it sounds like?

02:19:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
it's like soda pop except it's 45 alcohol.

02:19:57 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, part of what they're doing here is that they only their new make. When it comes off, the line is only at 55, which is very low. You know, typically you barrel it in the mid, in the early 60s 62 is common. So you know, one of turkey's claims to fame is that they only come up to 55. And there's another reason for that, which is they use more of the run. So when you think back to when we were talking about how they do distillation with this idea that you have heads, hearts and tails, right, so the initial thing that comes out of the still is pretty bad. It's the heads and you don't use that directly. You don't want to drink that stuff. It'll make you go blind. You put it back into the mash and it gets recycled. The heart is the part that you're going to keep to actually put in barrels. Are you slaughtering an animal or are you talking about this? What is happening? It's recycled.

02:20:49 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
The heart is the part that you're going to keep to actually put in barrels. Are you slaughtering an animal or are you talking about this? What is happening?

02:20:53 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's hearts and tails right Okay.

02:20:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And the head will kill you. The heart is good what?

02:20:57 - Richard Campbell (Host)
happens to the tail. The tails is when the alcohol level starts to tail off and you start to get more of the longer congeners. And so you know, some distilleries focus on a very narrow heart. They use less of the overall thing. Now, and especially in bourbon, you would take everything that's left over, all those heads and tails, and put it back into the still. It's part of the sour mash process, but in the case of wild turkey and I think this is an optimization point and it's one of the reasons their alcohol level is so low they keep a lot more of the tail in, so they produce more alcohol per run in the process at a lower level, which is a little easier on the barrel too, which is also why they you know their barrels sell very well, because they haven't had a lot of the flavors pulled from the wood near as much. So what makes it a reserve then?

02:21:53
Knowing this is literally wild turkey is where the barrels come from, so there's only one, there's a set of rickhouses. They're all the same. At wild turkey they're seven floors high, they're wooden and stacking and so they're horizontal mounts, and russell's comes from the center floor, so the higher floors tend to be hotter, so they lose, they, they lose faster. Lower floors tend to be slower, so they're literally of the seven floors they're pulling from three, four and five for everything that's in the reserve and that's why it's also 10 years old, which is not normal for bourbon. Bourbon tends to be in the five-year range. It's a pretty old uh with bourbon compared to most. Again, very sweet uh. You know what I would do with this? I'd be making cocktails with it.

02:22:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, it's yeah, I noticed they kind of emphasize, you know, the boulevardier and stuff and the boulevardier is great.

02:22:46 - Richard Campbell (Host)
You know why? It's got campari in it, which is a bitter, bitter Ah, to cut the sweet. To cut the sweet back a bit, on the other hand, and so this is a special edition, like regular turkeys 20 bucks a bottle, this is 40. So, arguably, if you want that sweeter mixer, I'd buy this. It's a nicer bottle than the regular turkey. 45% is a good number to come in in and it'll mix nicely. It's usable. There's nothing wrong with this. Put this in you, put this in your well, as a little higher class than the turkey, and make yourself some good bourbon cocktails and you'll be happy drinking it. Neat, you, you know, you might as well be sucking a lollipop here here's the seven uh a picture of the seven stories uh wow that is and there's Jimmy and Eddie.

02:23:31
Yeah, that's Jimmy and Eddie.

02:23:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Jimmy and Eddie. Mm-hmm, there they are. There they are Eddie Russell and Jimmy. Look at Jimmy. Jimmy's been doing this a while.

02:23:41 - Richard Campbell (Host)
A long time, more than 60 years, wow and they're both in the Bourbon Hall of Fame. They're both seriously successful. You know great whiskey makers. That's really cool. Yeah, but a father and son working together and nothing bad to say about that, it's all good yeah so listen, this is not my. You know I'm a neat drinker most of the time. This is not something I'm going to pick, but it's a nice little well elevation. It's going to go on in my liquor cabinet for mixing russell's reserve.

02:24:12
It's a wild turkey for fancy people there you go, you nailed it, nailed it very good, as always.

02:24:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The whiskey segment's always the most fun. Thank you very much, richard campbell, for pleasure. Great uh stories and pictures, and the website is worth checking out too the russell's reserve, uh. But that's about it for this edition of windows weekly. I hate to say it, but our time has come. Um, paul theriot, you're heading down from dallas to is the conference you're there for over.

02:24:48 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It ends today. You're tech right. Yep.

02:24:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, so people's chance to see you is.

02:24:56 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Is diminishing. They're having a party tonight.

02:24:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh good, Go to the party if you're in Dallas and then you're on to your home in Mexico City, which is great. I'm jealous That'll be, fun. You'll find Paul's work online at at the rotcom. He doesn't matter where he is, he's always filing. Always be filing is his motto. Yep, uh, t-h-u-r-r-o, double goodcom. His book books windows everywhere, the one with all the pictures. It's a picture book, it's a picture I went.

02:25:29 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
I went a different direction.

02:25:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
History of windows through its development environments. Lots of pictures no, no pictures, but a great book, a great read. Uh is available at lean pubcom, along with the must have for everybody who has windows 11, the field guide to windows 11, with windows 10 built in. Actually, that one does have a lot of pictures, but there're screenshots. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you, paul. Have safe travels and we'll see you next week. From Mexico. Richard Campbell is, of course, the host of two fabulous podcast shows Run as Radio and NET Rocks. You'll find them all at runasradiocom. Also a much-in-demand public speaker who is heading out.

02:26:10 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Soon it begins. Yeah, this weekend I'm heading out. Um, I've got a couple of days in the netherlands doing a keynote there perils and promise of ai, oh boy but also doing a talk on the future of power, and whenever I do that talk I include the power grid of that country, oh, and talk interesting and talk about how it's evolving. So I've been studying for the past couple of weeks the Netherlands power grid and it's my favorite part.

02:26:35 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Just like a terrorist would.

02:26:36 - Richard Campbell (Host)
Yeah, no, I pretty much know, pretty much all the pieces. Now they have exactly one operational nuclear power plant. I know where all the vulnerabilities are.

02:26:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think this is just fascinating. So you're an autodidact and they bring you in because of your ability to absorb and synthesize information and deliver it in an enjoyable way.

02:26:56 - Richard Campbell (Host)
That's it. That's really great. On the Wednesday next week, I will that morning fly to Ibiza. So in theory, if everything goes well, I will be in Ibiza for the show the.

02:27:07 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Ibiza and the Netherlands are exactly the same.

02:27:10 - Richard Campbell (Host)
It's basically the same thing, yeah.

02:27:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Where they at midnight they fill the entire club with foam. Yes, and it's just a real fun time.

02:27:18 - Richard Campbell (Host)
I? I am there to do a wedding renewal for the couple that convinced me to do weddings in the first place. It's their 15th anniversary and they do a renewal every five years, but we're doing it in an abba theme so goodness knows what I'll be wearing for the show, mama mia, yeah, wow, there may be some silver lamay in my immediate future, richard richard campbell, richard fernando and then I'm going on from there to nbc, porto, and then over to um, warsaw and then home how exciting it'll be.

02:27:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You're gonna have a great time, yeah for sure. Well, we will talk to you in all those places, I'm sure. Yeah, I hope so every uh, we do windows weekly every wednesday, 11 am pacific. Uh, that would be. Uh, let's see 11. That would be 2 pm eastern. 8 o'clock at night in Ibiza. 8 o'clock in Ibiza time. If you're in Ibiza, you'll enjoy it.

02:28:16 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
It will be well before you're going out to the club, so no problem.

02:28:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Perfect, perfect. Yeah, if he comes back, foam covered, we'll know.

02:28:25 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
You look kind of shiny Richard. Is there something we need to?

02:28:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
know you can watch us do this show on seven. Count them seven different streams. Now the best one is. My favorite is the Club Twit Discord. If you're a member of the club seven bucks a month. Of course, you can always listen after the fact to the ad-free versions of our shows, which is in and of itself a valuable thing. But you also get access to the Discord where there's a really great group of people conversating about all the things that we do on Twit and you also can watch the show there live and talk with people behind the scenes.

02:28:59
But that's just one of seven streams. There's also youtubecom slash twit, slash live, there's twitchtv slash twit, there's Kik, there's Facebook, there's LinkedIn and there's xcom. So pick the place you want to watch. 754 people watching live right now. We appreciate all of that, but the vast majority of people find it easier to watch after the fact on demand versions of the show available at twittv slash WW. There's a YouTube channel dedicated to a windows weekly and, of course, you can always subscribe in your favorite podcast player and get it automatically. Windows Weekly Audio, windows Weekly Video Just search for the one you want and, club Twit members, you know where to go to get your ad-free versions.

02:29:39
If you're not yet a member of the club, we'd love to have you. It's a great way to support what we do. If you like what you hear here, if you like what you hear here, if you, for instance, make any money at all on Intel breaking up, you should say spend some of that money at Club Twit. Twittv, slash, club Twit, and we love having our members. Lisa Laporte. Yes, oh, we have a new feature in our club which we just announced. I actually don't know if we've announced it. I might be the first to tell you about it. We now offer you additional time in the club. If you refer it. How much do they get if somebody joins? A month's free for every person that joins, up to 12 months free. So here's a way to subsidize your Club Twit membership. Get a friend to join. It's good for us, it's good for you, it's good for america.

02:30:30 - Paul Thurrott (Host)
Again, twit tv, you had me you had me right till the end.

02:30:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't it's, it's good for everybody. I'm running for office. Sure, twittv slash club twit. Thank you, paul, thank you richard. Safe travels to you both. Thank you, friend, we'll see you right back here next Wednesday for Windows Weekly. Bye-bye.