Windows Weekly 411 (Transcript)

Leo Laporte: It´s time for Windows Weekly, Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley are here I mean literally here in studio, they´ve just come back from Build and we´ll get all the news, everything about Windows 10 and Azure lakes and phones and the Hololens. Also Daniel Rubino is here from Windows Central, Peter Bright from ARS Technica, Carl Franklin and Richard Campebell from .netrocks and a lot of booze, it´s going to be an amazing Windows Weekly.

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This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley, Episode 411 recorded Friday May 1st. 2015.

Back from Build

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Leo: It´s time for Windows Weekly, the show that covers Microsoft´s latest and boy is there a lot to talk about today in fact we have so much to talk about we´ve moved out of my office into the big room to make room for Mary Jo Foley is here in studio with us, it´s great to see you.

Mary Jo Foley: Thank you.

Leo: Paul Thurrott in studio with us, and a cast of thousands.

Paul Thurrott: At least several.

Leo: And a tower of whiskey, we want to thank Carl and Richard for bringing along, Carl Franklin, Richard Campbell from .netrocks for bringing along enough booze to kill a horse. Including this, this Aberlour, this is 120 proof, wow.

Paul: You´re getting a contact tie now just for reading the label.

Leo: But it says this is original cast strength, does that mean like they dilute the rest of it, they just take it out and put water in it?

Dr. Pizza: That is why whiskey pairs of such idiots, like they complain when you add water to your whiskey.

Leo: Yeah, because whiskey is already watered, and if you don´t want it watered drink this and you´ll want it watered. That´s Dr. Pizza he´s going to join us in a little bit, Carl Franklin and Richard are also here, Daniel Rubino is here from Windows Central, but there´s a ton to talk about. First of all was it exciting? I watched the broadcast keno it seemed pretty good.

Mary Jo: It was good.

Leo: Yeah, I liked what Nadella said, let´s start at that high level. Is this the best articulated vision.

Paul: Fully articulated?

Leo: Fully articulated, is it fully articulated?

Paul: Like an action figure.

Leo: Is it a fully articulated vision? Would you say?

Mary Jo: Yeah I would say, I think you know we keep hearing him talk about cloud first mobile first and Microsoft´s platforms and productivity company and it just felt a little more like they were putting meat on the bones this time.

Paul: Actually I think Daniel wrote something about putting action to words.

Leo: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah, I agree with that.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: In The New York Times Nick Wingfield wrote Satya Nadella envisions a Microsoft that´s more willing to favor big bets on new technologies than the cash cow. Well you know, this is the challenge for Microsoft, it´s hard when something so successful.

Paul: Look he´s standing by windows.

Leo: Oh that´s actually a pretty picture.

Mary Jo: It is.

Leo: When you have something that´s massively successful sometimes that´s worse for a company.

Mary Jo: It is.

Paul: We were literally just talking about that.

Mary Jo: Yeah we were.

Paul: It´s tradition, you just sort of forget why you´re doing it but you have to keep doing it because it´s always worked.

Leo: It´s a real challenge and other business leaders have pinpointed this as something that a company has to get around. Do you feel like, it seems that Nadella understands that.

Mary Jo: Yeah, I think he does.

Leo: The big bets are Hololens, we´ll talk about that, but also embracing Linux which used to be the hated operating system.

Paul: Still vaguely uncomfortable with that one.

Leo: And embracing iPad and Android and mobile.

Paul: In ways that are big and small, we´ll get into this in a bit but there´s kind of that big picture stuff, we´re going to put Office on iPad or whatever. There are a bunch of small things too that factor into this, this is not let´s throw something against the wall and see if it sticks, they´re really serious about it.

Leo: It´s interesting too because Nadella did something that I think Steve Ballmer would never do, he said "Apple has taught us all what experience excellence means in the creation of categories". I don´t think you´d ever see Steve Ballmer Apple say Apple had taught him anything.

Mary Jo: Probably not.

Leo: So really, this is a different company, a different leader and I feel like it is, the rubber is hitting the road, and we´ve been waiting for this right, you kept saying for months you´ve been saying Mary Jo, wait for Build, we´ll find out at Build, well did we?

Mary Jo: We found out a lot of things at Build.

Leo: What did we find out at Build?

Mary Jo: So we have an idea for this show. We said why not follow the keynote, the same order of the keynote that Microsoft did at Build.

Leo: Good.

Mary Jo: So that means that we start off with.

Leo: Yeah they started real geeky, I´m watching them write code for like an hour.

Paul: 90 minutes in the cloud, 7 minutes on Office.

Mary Jo: Right, so they spent the first 45 minutes talking about my favorite topic

Leo: Azure.

Mary Jo: Data lakes anyone? No.

Paul: I won´t tell you who said this to me but someone from Microsoft told me before the keynote, when you hear the word data lake, get up and go to the bathroom.

Leo: It´s a long conversation.

Paul: Because that is the moment where, A) you will need to go to the bathroom because it´s about 70 minutes in and B) You´re 20 minutes from Windows.

Mary Jo: And that was true.

Leo: It´s like you´re on a highway in the desert and you see a sign, data lakes last stop.

Paul: Last stop before Windows, 90 miles.

Leo: First of all what is a data lake?

Mary Jo: We´re going to condense this down but we thought Richard Campbell of .netrocks might be good, come on up Richard.

Leo: And since Richard brought us the Aberlour scotch.

Richard Campbell: I brought the stuff.

Leo: You´re not a bourbon guy, you´re a scotch guy.

Richard: You know what, if it´s a brown liquor I like it.

Leo: You like all brown liquor.

Richard: I´m pretty easy to get along with.

Leo: I noticed you´re drinking but you didn´t open the Orphan Barrel.

Richard: This Barterhouse, well please have a little taste.

Leo: A little Barterhouse.

Richard: They have a really interesting, they have really fine rare barrels and they bottle them and when they´re gone, they´re gone. But that you can get reliably you know if you don´t care about your liver.

Leo: I am so grateful because I have never had a cask strength whiskey.

Richard: It´s one of the reasons I picked it out for you.

Leo: I´m so excited.

Richard: I was going to give you 2 very distinctive whiskeys.

Leo: I think we can open it up.

Richard: I would recommend it.

Leo: Should I put a little water in it?

Richard: I would taste it as it is, then you´ll probably want a little water in it.

Paul: When your lips fall off into the glass you´ll get some water.

Leo: I always like frankly brown liquor when there´s a drop or two of water in it seems to open it up a little bit.

Richard: Yeah specially with that one which has never had water touch it so.

Leo: That´s amazing.

Richard: It´s a very different drink.

Leo: So tell us about Azure and data lake.

Mary Jo: We can condense those 40 minutes.

Paul: And by the way do it in a way that´s not going to bore the hell out of us.

Leo: Should I go to the bathroom now?

Mary Jo: Richard´s going to make it exciting.

Richard: I´ll follow your lead.

Mary Jo: Okay so you know the just of what they announced is Azure Data Warehouse which gives them something to compete with Amazon´s Data Warehouse.

Leo: Which by the way is hugely extensive, successful right?

Richard: And massive.

Leo: And very profitable for Amazon.

Mary Jo: And then they also announced 2 complimentary services Azure Data Lake, an elastic data basis for Azure sequel data base.

Richard: Right.

Mary Jo: Which just flows right off the tongue.

Richard: Well as usual the naming is awesome.

Mary Jo: Exactly.

Leo: But it is what it says it is.

Richard: If you say it slowly enough it actually means what you think it is.

Leo: In computers that´s kind of unusual.

Mary Jo: It is, so it was funny during the keynote we were watching people tweet as though Microsoft had made up the word data lake, but data lake is a real term in data basis, it´s an object repository for I think for unstructured data or data you´re holding in a pack. Dr. Pizza just went to sleep, come on man!

Paul: It´s unlike partition stitching and it´s a real term.

Mary Jo: It is. Exactly.

Richard: This is a move against this idea of doing a huge transform and load process of trying to make all the data look the same so you can analyze it, it´s leave it as it is and then analyze it, that´s important, it´s efficient we were talking petabytes now.

Mary Jo: Right, so this is big for IOT right? Specially, one of the applications

Richard: Well we´re going to get oceans worth of data out of all of these devices so we should start with a lake.

Mary Jo: So people, lakes, you don´t want your lakes to become swamps, that´s true, that´s another thing that you say when you´re talking about data lakes. So it´s just big data stuff. His eyebrows just cinched right off

Leo: Paul just, for those of you listening at home, just took a sip of the Aberlour.

Mary Jo: I´m afraid.

Richard: I think we said really clear at the beginning you don´t start with this.

Mary Jo: No, probably not.

Paul: My precious.

Leo: Alright, alright, alright, we´re keeping the glass alright.

Richard: A couple of glasses into that and everything is precious.

Paul: Even data lakes are sounding good, keep going.

Leo: It smells like molasses, it´s that thick

Paul: This is like the port of.

Leo: Well it is aged in sherry butts so that gives you a little kind of a porty kind of a feel to it.

Richard: It´s only 120 years old.

Paul: I think I just turned my mouth inside out.

Mary Jo: I don´t know but I think that´s all I would say about those 40 minutes.

Richard: Yeah, I think the most important thing from a different perspective is this idea of leave your data as it is, where it is, whether it´s in log fog, don´t mess with it because we now have the tools to analyze it in situ.

Mary Jo: Exactly, so you know just so you guys understood what they were doing with the keynotes this is our personal theory.

Paul: Why did it take them 90 minutes to say that?

Mary Jo: Right, so you know the cloud is Microsoft´s future, that´s why you lead with the cloud.

Leo: There´s a semiotics, there´s a message communicated by the fact that before you mention Windows 10 which everybody is there to find out about, you spend that long on Azure, there´s a reason.

Paul: By the way, there are several reasons but they did say one thing that I thought was kind of cool, I´m going to botch it but it was we want to be the data behind everyone´s apps regardless of platform, and so if Windows mobile, if Windows phone never takes off, if Windows never takes off they´ll have that and I think that´s an important part of the business going forward.

Mary Jo: Yes, it totally is.

Leo: Wait a minute if Windows never takes off?

Paul: In the mobile space.

Leo: Oh, okay.

Mary Jo: He means phone.

Paul: I understand it was a big deal in the past.

Leo: Yeah, I heard Windows was something, this by the way is the most amazing thing I ever had in my life.

Richard: Well I´m glad I brought to you.

Leo: And children do not try this at home, boy oh boy, oh boy.

Paul: I thought you were going to say and that includes children.

Leo: Do you not agree this is mind boggling.

Paul: I don´t know why you would mix water into this.

Leo: It would ruin it.

Paul: I´ve just become a stunt.

Richard: There you go, I would say actually put a drop of water because it does change and not necessarily for the worse.

Paul: Could we please have an eye drop.

Leo: I´ve done that, I´ve just flicked.

Richard: Just a drop.

Mary Jo: There it is.

Leo: Go ahead, just do the show.

Paul: Put the shaving cream over here.

Mary Jo: Wake him up on Hololens.

Leo: Oh my God if you guys put magic marker on my forehead I will be so angry.

Paul: Draw the Windows flag on your forehead, Leo will be like the Charles Manson of Windows.

Leo: So what, uh, did they mentioned containers I know about that.

Mary Jo: Yeah they talked a little bit about containers.

Leo: Hadoop?

Mary Jo: Hadoop was said several times, we took drinks during the keynotes, yes.

Leo: But this is all at the beginning.

Mary Jo: All at the beginning.

Richard: Well then Hadoop has the whole data lake sort of a big way.

Mary Jo: It does.

Richard: It´s about again managing large blocks lots of machines.

Paul: By the way, cynically, if you talked about Windows first, nobody would have heard of any of this stuff.

Leo: Right, you have to start with it or they´re going to be gone. But I think they´re saying it´s important, this is important to our business.

Mary Jo: Yes, it is.

Leo: And why is this important to their business?

Mary Jo: Well if you look at what´s making money at Microsoft right now, one of the biggest businesses for them is Cloud and Enterprise.

Richard: Sure and this stuff only gets meaningful when the data sets get really big, the hundreds of gigs, the petabytes, the tens of petabytes and that´s money.

Leo: So this is really a message not even for SMBs, this is a message for big business.

Richard: Well it´s spooky how much data even small organizations are starting to gather now.

Mary Jo: Right.

Richard: You know we start talking about how many devices and how much information is available, we used to consolidate a side effect of ETL was this consolidation data and we´re just not doing it anymore.

Leo: Right.

Richard: So petabytes is not going to be that big a number much longer.

Leo: Is some of that the regulatory environment as well? The government regulations like Sarbanes-Oxley are forcing people to keep data more, is that part of it?

Richard: I would´t disagree with you there but it´s also because that´s been true for years.

Leo: But more important is data mining.

Richard: Yes.

Leo: More important is the insight you can gain from this data.

Richard: And anytime you consolidate you diminish the data´s work. Sorry, have another drink Paul.

Paul: It´s the lossy compression of data, you don´t want to take stuff out. But you don´t need to anymore. But storing this in the cloud as opposed to locally, why? Or do have local Azure? Are you talking about on prem?

Richard: No, there´s a possibility as well a lot of that stuff is on prem, more of it is going to be generated in the cloud in the first place, when we start going down the IOT path.

Mary Jo: Exactly.

Richard: You are talking about stuff that writes to the cloud anyway.

Mary Jo: Exactly.

Paul: So somebody just said in the chatroom the word I was waiting to say which was IBM.

Leo: IBM, this was their business and Oracle too right, isn´t Oracle a big.

Paul: I´ve never heard of a company called Oracle but IBM definitely.

Richard: Don´t say the O word.

Leo: And we just saw the profits, Amazon which is not making any money but we just saw the profits they´re making on AWS.

Paul: They´re making profits on AWS.

Mary Jo: Yes. By the way, at Build Microsoft said they think in 2 years they´re going to be at a 20 billion dollar annual run rate on their cloud.

Leo: Wow.

Richard: Wow.

Paul: Where will Windows Phone be in 2 years?

Mary Jo: Written off maybe?

Leo: So now you see why the bet, it´s a 20 billion dollar business, that´s important.

Mary Jo: Right.

Richard: It´s clearly a growth business with some other markets are having more trouble.

Leo: And we do a show on Enterprise but it´s hard, Enterprise is a hard sell in our space because it´s like, but what does that mean to me and I don´t understand it.

Paul: That literally was the IBM ad from 10,15 years ago, people don´t understand all of the stuff that´s behind what´s going on in the world, and it´s IBM but at that time.

Leo: But IBM is selling business intelligence but Microsoft has every one of those categories right?

Richard: All of those pieces and getting, you know the big thing that´s happening is we have so much more compute compared to back then, back then it was about trying to manage all this data, we have so many compute resources around, we can do announces of a whole other level. You can afford to run every data mining algorhythm option on that petabyte with the data because you only pay by the minute for the consumption and you find, you know the reason.

Leo: So that´s why you put it in the cloud.

Richard: Yeah, and you´re looking for exception data anyway right? If it´s everything you knew it´s not interesting, it´s what you didn´t know.

Leo: Right, and the tools are better operating.

Richard: It´s my job, that and scotch.

Leo: And now I know why you drink. Alright, alright, Richard Campbell of .netrocks is with us, he is explaining what, the whole point of the data lake, Paul and I just say

Paul: You can´t really chug this Leo.

Mary Jo: You want to but

Leo: It´s like molasses I´m not kidding, there is a caramel, I guess that´s the sherry

Richard: Well remember that alcohol was completely clear when it went into that sherry barrel, all of that came out of the wood.

Leo: And it is smooth as, oh get out, smooth as a grandma´s but, no that´s wrong. I don´t know where that came from.

Richard: Alright.

Paul: Well that´s what it´s like in your family.

Leo: Grandma was known for her smooth but, no it´s really remarkable and I´m just going to say this one more time for the people at home it´s Aberlour, a-b-e-r-l-o-u-r highland whiskey from A´bunadh.

Richard: Aberlour makes a lot of particular scotches, this is their cask strength.

Leo: This is cask strength and by the way look for batch 49.

Richard: I really haven´t run across a bad batch yet.

Leo: This is very good, that´s really remarkable.

Paul: This was the source of my demise.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Richard: And he was never seen again.

Leo: Anything else to say about Azure before we move along?

Paul: Anything else on the keynote that stuck out?

Richard: I´m astonished at how rapidly Microsoft has moved on the container movement and this idea that my developers now can build their projects in these containers that run beautifully on their machine with no changes can be deployed to their servers, to the cloud, to somebody else´s cloud, onto a Linux host or onto a Windows host I think it´s a huge deal. A container is just a container and it will run anywhere you want it to run.

Leo: And is Docker their only container solution or are there others, is Docker one of them?

Richard: There are other container systems in the world but I think people are really resinating around Docker.

Mary Jo: They´re building one though.

Leo: People love Docker.

Mary Jo: Yeah, Microsoft is building their own container into the next version of Windows server we know.

Richard: I think, you know, it´s one of the things the strength of the Windows scenarios, it´s an owned code base, you know, it´s theirs, and if they decide the containers important they can move very fast on it but I think they´ve demonstrated they´re serious about compatibility so I would never for a moment could it ignore the Docker center around that.

Leo: Is there a little bit of though faddishness around this? This suddenly became very big, like in the last few months I mean, everybody and their brothers containers, containers.

Paul: They´re obviously embracing Linux at exactly the right time.

Richard: Well in the strength of it is this is what you loved from virtualization without all the overhead, that instead of having to include an operating system with everyone of these instances I have a common operating system.

Paul: It´s abd for the cloud.

Richard: That´s right. You know you can take this and turn it into desktop virtualization as well if you wanted. I think that path is there.

Leo: And we´ve talked about this before hyper V and virtualization and containers. Containers are basically lower level.

Richard: A lighter weight, lighter version. Just think it´s like hyper V virtualization but we´ve taken the OS out of the VM so I am now hooking on to an OS and that makes a huge difference.

Mary Jo: But Microsoft also is building a hybrid container with hyper v as well.

Richard: Yeah, well we´ll see where that ends up, the issue here is Virtualization now, the traditional form that goes with the BIOS and so forth, that completely fools the OS it doesn´t know it´s running in a VM on at all, has got some good security around it, it´s very robust, and it´s very tough to make it that secure in the container model when you´re plugging into an OS, if that OS gets exploited those containers are so much more vulnerable and if we got a really nasty container, you´ve got some 3rd party container

Leo: Cross contaminate through, by the operating system.

Richard: Yeah, and everything would be potentially vulnerable. There´s more attack surface in that model than there is in the traditional virtualization model.

Leo: It´s also surprising since Microsoft has been known as an operating system vendor that they would go all in on a technology that is operating system independent, agnostic.

Richard: I think that sort of speaks to the new Microsoft too, they´ve got to recognize the OS doesn´t matter much anymore nowhere as near as it used to.

Leo: Very interesting stuff.

Mary Jo: So yeah, that was Azure.

Paul: Windows drinkly is what I heard.

Leo: Windows drinkly, I think this bottle os Aberlour is going to go a long way.

Paul: Not today it´s not.

Leo: We should pass it around. Except that nobody would work.

Richard: You may have to keep everyone overnight.

Leo: Put cots in the basement.

Richard: Yep.

Leo: Hey Richard thank you so much for coming.

Richard: My pleasure, thank you.

Leo: .netrocks and Carl Franklin your partner is here as well, he´ll talk about some stuff too. And thank you so much for, you brought not just the Aberlour but you brought also some

Richard: The Mortlach? So yeah I went for 2 different styles there, Mortlach is out of Dufftown and that´s specially bottling, they normally don´t have a branded bottle, most of this stuff actually gets blended in from various front versions of Johnny Walker.

Paul: You know too much about this stuff.

Richard: I´m a professional alcoholic but you know.

Leo: I got to say I´ve learned, this is good, I learned a little bit.

Richard: We know what to get you for christmas now. Thank you.

Leo: Thank you very much, Richard Campbell .netrocks. Before they got to Windows they continued on with more fascinating material about Office.

Mary Jo: Yes, they did although this was kind of sad because the Office stuff in the keynotes got very short shrift.

Paul: Well you know why though because this is the only bit that applied to developers.

Mary Jo: I know.

Paul: So next week is Ignite and there´ll probably be more Office.

Leo: They´ll talk a lot about Office

Paul: But talk about getting squeezed, 90 minutes of content, 7 minutes, and then Windows whatever Windows was.

Mary Jo: But they actually did announce some very interesting things for developers with Office, so plug ins you know things that are in the Office store right now like Linkedin and those kind of plug ins, you´re going to be able to use those not just on Office desktop apps but also on the mobile apps which is kind of amazing.

Paul: It´s more than kind of amazing.

Mary Jo: Yeah, even people at Microsoft were like wait we´re doing that now?

Paul: We alluded to this a few weeks ago, the question that comes up you know, when do the Office mobile apps, you know Office for iPad, Office for Windows 10, those kind of apps, when do they take over for the desktops apps? And there´s a lot that has to go into that but one of the things that I raised was add ons, you know the solution of add ons and I always figured they would do it but that they would do it years down the road and that it would be a different model. But it is in fact the add on model from Office 2013 and so also available on the Mac which I don´t think they even mentioned during the keynote but these, if you run an add in for Outlook or Word, Excel, PowerPoint whatever, you can design it such so that it works across all of those clients, works differently depending on what the capabilities of the system are, the type of screen, if it´s a phone, tablet, if it´s a PC whatever. That´s amazing and powerful.

Mary Jo: It is.

Paul: And it´s available right now and so the first one I think Excel for iPad is going to be sometime in the coming weeks will be the first to support that on the mobile side over the course of the year the rest of iOS, iPhone and iPad, Android and then of course the Windows 10 apps as well.

Mary Jo: Yep. So if you remember codename wise something called Agaves? This is Agaves like the next version of what Agaves were, which is the plug ins. Yes so that was interesting then on the other Office news we found out if you remember we were supposed to get those touch first Office apps for Windows Phone by April 30th, well we didn´t.

Leo: It´s May 1st.

Mary Jo: It is but we´re hearing next week is when those are going to drop so if you´re waiting for those, which I found out at the show are now called, what´s the official name? It´s a really crazy name:Mobile for Windows 10 apps.

Leo: What? Sounds like Yoda, Mobile for Windows 10 apps they are.

Mary Jo: That name´s got to change, that name has to change, that´s the name they´re using now, which we were calling before Office universal apps, they´re not calling them that now.

Leo: Mobile for Windows 10 apps.

Paul: Well it has to be Office mobile for Windows 10.

Mary Jo: Mobile for Windows 10

Paul: They have to differentiate them somehow, I think people are confused.

Mary Jo: They do, but maybe that name will change again. But those are coming next week.

Leo: Where does Gemini stand right now? Is that going to come out with Windows 10?

Mary Jo: Gemini? Gemini?

Leo: Touch first Office.

Paul: That´s it, I think this is it.

Mary Jo: This is what we´re talking about.

Leo: That´s the same thing?

Mary Jo: Yes.

Leo: But it´s mobile.

Paul: It always was.

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: Oh it always was. But isn´t there a touch first desktop Office or is that a crazy thought?

Mary Jo: You can use those.

Paul: That´s this, this is just a simple Office.

Leo: These are, and this is what I have to wrap my head around now is that everything is everything, it´s all universal right?

Paul: Well the confusing bit is on this system I thought you did, you could have Office 2013 which the current desktop full powered app.

Leo: I do, I also have OneNote.

Paul: I´m sorry, OneNote, you can also have OneNote the mobile app which I don´t think you do.

Leo: The former Metro, formerly known as Metro.

Paul: Alright.

Leo: I probably didn´t put it on here because I find that confusing. Oh you´re touching it.

Paul: I don´t think,wait.

Leo: He´s touching mine.

Paul: Put your hands down.

Leo: You know I never installed it, oh it is there.

Paul: There you go, so it´s a little confusing I think to people that you could have both versions.

Leo: I´m thinking, this is the Dell XPS 13 I´m thinking it probably came on it, which I would´ve had to uninstall it which I didn´t. But I´ve never used it as you can see. Well then that´s very confusing because this is just the same program.

Paul: If you´re using Windows on a 7 or 8 inch tablet you might want to use this instead because it´s more touch friendly than the traditional.

Leo: So when you say mobile now you´re not saying not desktop.

Paul: Well actually yes.

Mary Jo: No, well you can run the mobile ones on these touch first ones on the desktop if you want to right?

Paul: You can, that´s Windows because it´s hybrid.

Leo: Yeah, yeah it´s universal.

Paul: Right.

Leo: I´m putting myself in the position of a normal person.

Mary Jo: I know and it´s confusing.

Leo: And I am confused a little bit yeah.

Mary Jo: also is getting plugins

Paul: Right, right.

Mary Jo: Which is also very interesting.

Paul: Actually I presume that the Office add ins will work on

Mary Jo: Yeah you would think I didn´t hear them say that but I would assume that. Yeah, so that´s Office, we did about 7 minutes also.

Leo: There you go, that´s the entire thing, alright we´re going to take a break because when we come back we are finally going to get into something you care about.

Mary Jo: What?

Leo: Sorry Peter, we´ll wake up Peter Bright. Windows 10 is the topic and apparently there was something to be said there.

Mary Jo: A few things.

Leo: A few things, just one or two.

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Paul: Leo.

Leo: What?

Paul: I can´t reach the whiskey.

Leo: Paul says give me more whiskey. Would you like the good stuff? You drank all that? Remember it´s 120 proof.

Paul: I understand.

Leo: Okay, you´re a trained professional, I´m not going to get in your way.

Paul:I´m getting all sweaty though.

Leo: I am too, it´s warm in here. It´s not you, it´s not the booze, it´s just a little warm because it´s a hot day in Petaluma like 88 degrees outside, according to my Apple watch and the air conditioning has failed. Windows 10. Who are we going to bring up to talk about Windows 10?

Mary Jo: We can bring a few people, should we start with Carl Franklin maybe to talk about bridges?

Leo: Bridges? This is a very aquatic show, we´ve got lakes and we´ve got bridges.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: Carl Franklin from .netrocks our musician, he also brought a couple of his new CDs. Been a while, there that is. What kind of music is that?

Carl Franklin: So people compare my music to Steely Dan a lot, but if you basically love groovy, funky.

Leo: I love Steely Dan. Anything called the big butter and egg man is for me.

Carl: That´s actually an old song.

Leo: We have the butter and eggs day parade here every year you just missed that one last weekend.

Paul: It was the talk of the car, Leo.

Mary Jo: It was.

Leo: Oh Louie Armstrong

Carl: Yeah, yeah.

Leo: And there´s a couple of Carl Franklin originals on here as well as Boogie groove,Out of your way.

Carl: And the great guitar player John Scofield played on the 3rd track which my wife Kelly wants me to say is about her.

Leo: You mean chain reaction? That´s her? Is it?

Carl: She´s the blond in that story.

Leo: Do we have a CD player anywhere?

Carl: What is this CD player you speak of? I realized at some point that giving people CDs represents work for them.

Leo: It´s like wow, I kind of remember this format but I don´t know what to do with it.

Carl: Exactly, how do I do with this? What is this?

Paul: There´s no CD player.

Leo: Just looking.

Mary Jo: No, no.

Leo: There´s no CD player, alright. And you also brought Lifeboat to nowhere. What kind of music is this? This is you and your bro.

Carl: Well yeah, so The Franklin Brothers is myself and my brother Jay and any good studio musicians we can get but it´s more ballads but there are a few funky horn tunes on there as well that´s all originals, some blues.

Paul: Do you have that song that you played to us.

Carl: Which one?

Paul: The first one, no not on the show, is it just on your phone?

Carl: Oh yeah, yeah it´s on my phone.

Paul: Can you play it into the microphone?

Carl: I suppose I could, your theme song.

Leo: The new theme song?

Carl: When I was on the show.

Leo: Did you put it on OneDrive or anything modern?

Carl: It´s actually on the web but it´s sort of a private link.

Leo: Ah. Just play it right out of that phone.

Carl: Basically what I did I created an album for the sole purpose of getting licensed by NASCAR because we´re working on the license company and NASCAR was big and wanted these particular kinds of driving tunes.

Paul: It is a little bit like the music they used to play in the beginning of the NFL games where the county star would come out.

Leo: Are you ready for some Windows?

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: Sounds good, I like it.

Carl: So let me play one here.

Mary Jo: He´s doing some samples for us.

Leo: I like that, wow. Alright, you´re signed, you´re hired. That´s great, you guys like that?

Mary Jo: I like it.

Leo: Let´s use it.

Carl: Sort of high energy.

Leo: Alright I´ll write you a check after the show.

Paul: Just like us, and then we start and everyone falls asleep.

Leo: I like the hey in there, very Ramones, it´s good, I like it. So Windows 10.

Carl: That´s why I went to music school to learn to write hey you know.

Leo: Hey! Hey, hey, hey, hey.

Mary Jo: So one of the big surprises at Build, well there were a few big surprises but one was they did talk about the long rumored Android on Windows Phone.

Leo: A lot of people picked up that story.

Mary Jo: They did.

Leo: You know it´s interesting to see what the media picked up on.

Mary Jo: Yes but they also talked about getting iOS apps on Windows Phone.

Leo: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Which we hadn´t talked about before.

Leo: So I read it, I read it, I looked.

Paul: It seemed impossible.

Leo: I looked carefully, it looks like you still have to rewrite your app.

Carl: Somewhat.

Leo: How much? I´m curious.

Carl: It depends on the app, so if you have a 2d game perhaps that has all graphics code that is pretty much going to translate, yeah I know, you guys should really not start with the Aberlour A´bunadh.

Leo: It brought tears to my eyes.

Carl: It´s not funny Richard, you should start with something lighter like Mortlach.

Leo: No, no, no.

Carl: Seriously 2 hours of that and you´ll be.

Leo: I´m already.

Paul: Wait til the third add it´s going to be awesome. He´ll be like giving the money back.

Carl: So my thought was that and of course what they did is they said you could take your java code pull in into visual studio and then just recompile it and you´ve got a Windows universal app. And then they showed iOS like objective C in visual studio and our heads exploded. And it just reminds me oh my God I love C sharp, looking at that code was just, but here´s the thing and we were talking about this in the car on the way up, it´s really great that they can take a source code and you do have to do some rewriting if you have anything that has input or anything that uses the system, the stuff that´s on the phone right? The native support you have to do a little rewriting but it´s really cool but what I really think is going to work for them is, remember, in order to revive and revive the Windows Phone ecosystem, it really needs revival because it´s kind of passed out right now, is to be able to run more apps and that´s the only thing that´s going to get people to buy them is because it´s a sweet phone but I can´t get this app and I can´t get that app. What would really be great, I want, is to be able if I built an Android app to be able to take the same thing that I sent to the play store and send it to the Microsoft store.

Leo: Well, but, you´ve got to, okay so a couple of questions.

Carl: Who said that?

Leo: That was Peter.

Leo: A couple of questions, we´ve seen this before, Java did this right, once, run everywhere, the issue was of course, there´s 2 issues on mobile but the one, the issue with java was of course controls it´s hard to get native controls, native buttons. They tried to solve this with swing in java not well and it never really materialized.

Carl: Well anytime you put a layer on top of a UI layer and do a translation you´re going to get a lot of.

Leo: How do they solve that? Are they going to do native UIs on iOS and Android?

Carl: I think Peter´s going to have to answer that for me, let Peter talk about that.

Leo: Second question I thought this was very interesting, of course most mobile apps rely on services from the OS and Android services are a big deal, you get a lot of stuff from them, Microsoft says they´re going to kind of provide their own version of these.

Carl: Right.

Leo: Wow, that´s interesting, I wonder if that comes from the X phone initiative.

Mary Jo: That´s, uh, sorry Android open source project.

Carl: Right.

Leo: It´s AOSP? But you can use, so this is the thing with AOSP is if you´re going to make a hand set with AOSP you´re not going to have Google play services, you´re not going to have Google store, you´re not going to have maps, you´re not going to have all of those features, and without those services you have to supplant them with something else.

Mary Jo: Well you´re going to supplant them with Windows.

Leo: The only way to make this work is if Microsoft gives at a very low level right, API compatible level access to these same services.

Carl: That´s right and so it is an exciting time, the question is, is it enough?

Leo: Can they do it?

Carl: Can they do it number one and even if they do, is it enough to revive the Windows phone ecosystem? That´s the question we all have.

Leo: And they´re coming at it from 2 angles because the other angle of course is the universal app and this is what we´re going to talk about a little bit later on with Dimitri Lyalin who did a beautiful Twit app for Windows phone, if you can do a universal app for Windows 10, Windows phone, Xbox, that´s another way to solve this.

Paul: I thought they would go in the opposite direction with Android than they would have universal apps on Android, to be truly universal you have to bring in as many platforms as you can.

Carl: Well you know and that´s where Xamarin helps, Xamarin takes that whole piece of being able to take your code base and recompile for Android and recompile for iOS and that´s a very important piece of the puzzle that´s missing. But you were asking Leo, this is a great question you know I´m a regular guy, what´s so special about the cloud? And from a user’s perspective the cloud enables magic and let me tell you what I mean by that. I use an app on my phone and I´m listening or I´m watching a video or something like that and then I put my phone down and walk over to my desk and pull up the same app and it´s right where I left off, where is the app? Where is it? Is it on my phone? Is it on my desktop? It´s everywhere, and so that whole being everywhere all at once thing is magic, is by definition, it´s like wow.

Paul: Specially if it´s cross platform.

Carl: Yeah, so I think that´s a really great question you know, why should I care about the cloud because it enables that kind of experience that you would´t have otherwise. I think by doing bridges it was pretty clear what they said was we want to pull in as many developers, as many platforms, as many languages as possible and use the Windows 1 billion users.

Leo: Yeah but it´s not a new strategy and it´s failed every time we´ve seen that before, we´ve seen other platforms like Blackberry.

Paul: Yeah but Blackberry only had that. In other words the universal app thing, the 4 bridges that they talked about, there´s more, it´s Android, it´s iOS, it´s web apps and it´s Windows.

Leo: But it ultimately relies on developers buying the message.

Paul: Which by the way is no problem for buyers.

Leo: It´s a big problem because no matter how easy it is to do, it is still effort, it is still compiling it for another platform and if a developer says I don´t want a 3 I don´t care about a 3 % platform, there´s also another issue which is you might make this possible but it doesn´t mean Google is going to do it right? And if Google doesn´t go along, for me, I´m so invested in the Google ecosystem that if I don´t have Google plus and all the Google features on my Windows Phone, that´s the thing that kept me from using it.

Carl: Think about it as a C sharp developer I always think oh well you know, it´s about the tools, you know, the tools are great because we have great tools, visual studio, excellent tools, just exceptional.

Leo: Yeah excellent tools and they are now cross platform with code

Carl: But it was never about, the reason that Windows Phone is where it is, isn´t because we didn´t have great tools you know.

Mary Jo: Right.

Carl: It´s because the apps weren´t built for it and it just sort of fed itself down the spiral.

Leo: Right.

Carl: Yeah, so having apps for the phones is what´s going to make them or break them.

Mary Jo: Talk about the other 2 bridges though, that we didn´t talk about because I think these were equally interesting in a way.

Paul: And also container based as the first one.

Mary Jo: So one of these other, these bridges are these tool kits that are going to help developers bring more apps to the store. Another one is bringing Win 32 to apps to the store.

Carl: That´s right.

Mary Jo: Which is kind of crazy.

Carl: Win 32 and .net apps so any Win32 or .net app can now be submitted to the Windows store and those are downloaded and run in a sandbox like a container, in fact it is a container.

Leo: It is a little Metro holder that your Apple slot into.

Paul: The thing they´ve been providing to enterprises for several years.

Leo: Ah so it´s well known.

Paul: Well-known and well understood

Leo: And the creator of the app does not have to do anything? It´s just automatic.

Carl: As far as I know that´s the message I got.

Paul: Well the creator of the app is the one that has to do this, they´re the ones that have to package it

Carl: They do package it but I don´t believe there´s any necessary coding.

Leo: There´s no recoding.

Paul: No, no but they have to do the work and then decide to put it in the store. If Adobe doesn´t want to put Photoshop in the store it doesn´t appear in the store.

Leo: Right.

Carl: But it begs, you know I do a lot.

Leo: Is Photoshop 32 only?

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: So that´s a good example

Paul: Well they´re literally doing it sort of so, literally sort of. Photoshop elements and Premiere elements will be in the Windows store and they are the desktop apps.

Leo: The 32 bit apps wrapped in this new metro.

Carl: So I had questions like I´m a connect developer and I´m an mvp for connect but I didn´t know are there any limitations to that container you know like if the connect is a very resource intensive you know it requires a lot of cpu power and a lot of gpu power, that was my question I didn´t know, I don´t know the answer to that.

Paul: I think this is primarily for productivity type applications but that´s certainly been the background of that.

Carl: Yeah, it certainly is.

Mary Jo: And games right also.

Leo: Peter Bright is saying the apps will be able to do anything except install device drivers and services. That´s pretty much anything else.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Carl: It should be performance constraits, alright good.

Leo: So Direct X game would have no trouble porting right over, interesting.

Mary Jo: Yeah, and the forth bridge is web apps so you take a website wrap it and you put that in the store.

Carl: You know when I first saw that and they showed an app that looked like a real, you know, Windows desktop app that it came from a website, the first thing that I thought was oh that´s kind of like a you know, phone gap thing but it isn´t really, no this is literally being able to take a website, make a few tweaks and write to the system, yeah and that´s the magic question how many tweaks do we have to do?

Mary Jo: Exactly.

Carl: Chuckle from the audience there, yes, well placed.

Leo: What happens to Win 64 stuff, that´s unchanged, you can´t do that.

Paul: What do you mean?

Leo: There´s no Win 64 sorry!

Paul: It´s all, it´s the same yeah.

Leo: Yeah Win 32 is basically desktop.

Paul: That´s right.

Mary Jo: So for people who like code names this was kind of interesting. The bridges, these 4 bridges all have code names and each of those code names is a bridge.

Leo: So Mackinac, Astoria, Embassador?

Mary Jo: No.

Leo: George Washington?

Mary Jo: Astoria, Android 1, there´s an Astoria Bridge somewhere I think it´s Oregon maybe, and then Project Islandwood, Islandwood is a bridge.

Paul: So they´re not all places in California?

Mary Jo: They are not. Islandwood is the iOS one, the web apps one is code named Westminster, and the classic 132 is Centennial.

Paul: They´re being so open about this and Terry Myerson refused to tell me what these were.

Mary Jo: I don´t like when they´re open about code names.

Leo: They´re bridges.

Paul: They´re just on the web.

Mary Jo: It takes the fun away.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: He didn´t know, that´s why.

Paul: No, he knew.

Leo: Oh he knew!

Mary Jo: If you ever hear of Project A, that is the Android bridge, yeah, they did that to foil us they said because we were on to the Android on Windows so they kept changing the code names, kept trying to thwart us who were trying to find out.

Leo: I could see if you´re on Angry Birds this makes you happy because it´s easy to port to Windows phone although you probably would anyway.

Mary Jo: Although Candy Crush saga.

Leo: Candy Crush was part of the partnership.

Mary Jo: With Islandwood.

Carl: But then I heard they went and rewrote that all natively.

Mary Jo: Did they?

Carl: Yeah, I don´t know.

Leo: That´s a bad sign.

Carl: That was a rumor.

Mary Jo: Rumor?

Leo: Candy Crush?

Carl: We´ll have to get to the bottom of that one.

Mary Jo: We will.

Paul: Just get it in the store it doesn´t matter in a way.

Carl: No it sure doesn´t.

Mary Jo: Bridges cool.

Carl: Yeah, okay. I would recommend you guys switch to.

Paul: Okay, let me just chug this.

Carl: Yeah, just chug that down.

Paul: I do like the little fix logo guy.

Leo: He´s cute, isn´t he?

Carl: So I want to tell you a story about Orphan Barrel, I went to my local liquor store and I couldn´t find any anymore they made a couple of things Barterhouse´s 20 year old, they made Forged oak was a 15 year old and I couldn´t find it and they said nope, they´re done and in fact Barterhouse is done, I got the last 4 bottles of it at the local store.

Leo: What? That´s not right.

Carl: Because they had bottles a lot of it when it came out but Orphan Barrel makes these one off batches and when they´re gone, they´re gone, so they´re just as much a collector’s item as they are a great bourbon.

Paul: Well let´s drink it.

Leo: I can´t believe you opened this now, I was going to collect that.

Paul: It´s like playing with a Star Wars action figure.

Leo: You took it out of the box. Alright, anything else to say about the bridges?

Carl: Uh no but I got plenty to say about Hololens if you want to talk about that.

Leo: We´re going to get there, we´re going to get there.

Mary Jo: We´re bringing you back.

Carl: The bridges are interesting, we have yet to see, to summarize, we have yet to see whether it´s going to make a difference in the Windows Phone market.

Paul: Or are they bridges of Madison County?

Carl: That´s a good question. Yeah so we´ll see, I´m hopeful but we´ll see.

Mary Jo: Yes, okay.

Leo: Very good, Carl Franklin musician extraordinaire and the author of our new Windows Weekly theme, Hey, hey! Make it Oy, Oy. Was there any news of Windows 10 desktop at all, I mean it seems like they all taking about everything else.

Mary Jo: I know, so right after all the keynotes ended and we´re back in the press room suddenly Microsoft drops a new Build of Windows 10 desktop and, yes, it ruined the WiFi at the conference.

Leo: All of a sudden the internet just goes boom.

Mary Jo: It did, it did. So maybe we´ll bring Daniel Rubino from Windows Central up to talk with us about that.

Leo: I love it, he´s wearing an incredible shirt, I love his shirt. It´s his Xbox soccer shirt. Sounders football club, is that a real football club in Seattle?

Paul: Only if you live in Seattle Leo.

Daniel Rubino: Yes, what´s soccer?

Leo: Do they actually wear an Xbox shirt?

Daniel: Yes.

Leo: They do.

Daniel: Yeah it´s actually the green one, they have also the white.

Leo: That´s awesome so it´s the old, that´s the original Xbox.

Daniel : Yeah Xbox One they´re sold. You go to Microsoft store and all it is they have these tons of these Xbox Sounders shirts.

Leo: I love that shirt.

Paul: You know what they don´t have? Superbowl champion shirts, anybody?

Daniel: I´m on this guy´s side.

Leo: So let´s talk.

Mary Jo: Let´s talk about the new Build of Windows 10 desktop that came out this week.

Daniel: Sure.

Mary Jo: Anything? Very interesting or just more of the same?

Daniel: Yeah so I think a lot of it is, this is probably the first Build that at least I feel and I think others are starting to feel like the polish is starting to get added in now one of those I would say start in Cortana, where like now when you hit the, you go to do the search there´s a really nice animation that comes up and before we had the same feature but it always just felt like it was kind of bolted on and now they´re starting to refine things and change a lot of features up and it´s starting to come together now. It´s still I would say way off, we´re talking a couple of months but it´s starting to feel coherent whereas before and this is a weird thing I think for everybody, everybody I think probably beta tested software before but the idea of a technical preview is very different, it´s literally alpha and beta testing software. In fact some of the apps that have like a little triangle corner with the alpha or beta sign and that´s how early they are.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Now if you work in Microsoft and you´re an engineer this is like every day, you just deal with this, you accept it, it´s just part of your mill, when you give it to consumers it feels like what is this? You need to sort of get past what that main feature is, what´s going to come down the road and it´s hard to make that connection I think for a lot of people which is why all the negative feedback.

Leo: Are there any chunks missing? How complete does it feel?

Paul: It´s chunky.

Daniel: It feels like a lot of it, some of it is performance based, some of it, sometimes they release it with major bugs like the last Build you couldn´t run some of the desktop apps out of the start menu.

Mary Jo: They fixed that though right?

Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

Leo: At this point you wouldn´t expect any mayor missing features right? This is the tune-up at this point or no?

Paul: You´re asking if it´s feature complete?

Leo: yes.

Daniel: Right. I don´t think so, although continuum going to the phone part is one of the last I heard like main features we can expect for the RTM.

Leo: This is awfully late to be adding major features.

Mary Jo: We´re going to talk more about the schedule too. How about talk a little bit more about continuum because we saw a really cool demo at Build about how you can use continuum on phones not just laptops and desktops.

Daniel: Yeah so Continuum was announced a while ago and I thought it´s kind of a cool word and at the time it was defined by Microsoft as basically when you have a 2 in 1 device and you attach, detach a keyboard it´s going to shift from the tablet mode to desktop mode and that´s what we understood Continuum to be and it was actually kind of a cool thing. Continuum is now turning into, I would say more a conceptual idea behind Windows in general, they´re expanding it now to phone where your phone itself becomes a part of your Windows desktop experience and that includes, you can use the phone as a remote control, including a mouse pad and keyboard and that itself is not really that brand new, other OS have done it before but now you can also use it as you can put that screen onto that computer or you can run apps on both and when you run an app on your phone on the pc it will because it´s a universal app switch to the desktop mode automatically.

Leo: Is this the latest Build on here?

Daniel: And so with continuum though I´m thinking continuum will

Leo: Oh wow, wait a minute let me look at this loop first.

Mary Jo: No!

Daniel: No loops, no head loops.

Leo: Oh there´s a loop.

Mary Jo: Oh God no.

Leo: I don´t know if I have the right HDMI connector because we want to show this if we can, oh, it fell off.

Paul: It´s magnetized.

Leo: Is that a mini display port right there? Is that what that is? I could just use that but I can´t plug it in, looks like it has a mini display port should I try it? How bold do we feel?

Mary Jo: Is there any reason this shouldn´t be on the show Paul?

Paul: Hold on Leo let me drink something first.

Leo: How brave do you feel? There, it fits, that´s the first criteria. Like what you see? That´s nice.

Paul: Yeah, that´s a new feature.

Leo: That´s a new feature. What about, are you not seeing the desktop yet?

Daniel: There it is.

Leo: No, but that´s a shot.

Paul: You can´t, you have to sign it first, let it know that you´re using it.

Leo: Well, okay.

Paul: I got this Leo.

Leo: Go ahead.

Paul: Oops, wrong one.

Daniel: That´s the other big thing that is part of introducing the arrow features.

Mary Jo: Yeah, transparency´s back.

Daniel: Yeah the transparency but they blurred out the background now.

Mary Jo: Remember arrow?

Leo: Okay so now we´re duplicating the screen.

Paul: Let´s extend the screen.

Leo: No don´t extend it I want to duplicate it, why did you do that? Do you know how this works?

Mary Jo: He doesn´t, he doesn´t know how to use Windows.

Leo: Now Alex do you see anything over there? Oh because I unplugged it that´s why.

Paul: Does it need to be physically connected Alex?

Leo: Yes, I have an air gap down here, alright, now it´s plugged in, now it´s duplicated, well that´s alright we actually have a pretty clean shot with the camera, so what are we looking at Daniel, what should I look at?

Daniel: One of the things is the transparency effect, this has been an evolving feature of the software and so it darkens out, blurs the background, before it was kind of like you could see right through it, it confused the text so if you had a web page up there and you launch a start menu things were very sort of confusing and these are actual elements from the old days of Windows Vista with the arrow transparency opaqueness effect that we´re seeing more of.

Paul: We don´t say the A word around here.

Daniel: Oh right, right yes. Just want to talk about what polished and software, it´s starting to get refined a little bit, you see more just consistency I would say in the layouts and the iconography.

Leo: Cortana do you mind?

Paul: No, that´s fine

Daniel: Cortana has some new menu features added on there as well so it´s continuing to evolve.

Leo: Why don´t you sign in?

Paul: I´m not signing in on this thing, Look are you kidding me? I don´t know where this computer has been.

Leo: So again you feel like it ought to be, given that we´re what, 2 months out from launch feature complete.

Daniel: Um, I think it´s probably a little bit further than that.

Paul: That´s hilarious

Leo: So it´s not 2 months.

Daniel: I don´t mean to like cause alarm, it´s coming soon it really is this summer, they are sticking to this summer.

Mary Jo: Let´s talk about the schedule.

Daniel: Yeah sure.

Leo: I found the hamburger.

Mary Jo: You found the hamburger.

Leo: I found the hamburger.

Mary Jo: You´re set, you´re set now.

Leo: That´s all it is.

Paul: It´s funny because this is a big debate the hamburger thing.

Leo: We talked about it last week.

Mary Jo: Yeah the hamburger is the hamburger.

Paul: I actually think it´s more effective on the desktop than it is on mobile.

Mary Jo: Oh you do?

Daniel: That´s why, that´s why it came from the desktop usage right?

Paul: Yeah and I think you´re going to see less of it on phone than we thought before.

Daniel: We´re talking about with Zip It, their new Windows 10 app I got a tour of and they don´t use the hamburger menu and that´s because it literally is up the developer to choose how to use those elements. Hamburger menus by definition should hide things you don´t use often.

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: And so the problem is some developers don´t obey that. I used the twitter app recently on Android and they actually did put like dimensions in the different panes basically into the hamburger menu and they also incorporated swiping, now technically that´s a bad US experiment because now you´re sort of giving 2 options to people and you don´t know which is consistent but the fact is people do it. So when it comes to the hamburger menu, that´s the way it should be, some of us have been arguing that it should offer a way to swipe out with your thumb, to bring out the menu but then this gets into the thing with gestures and if you´re going to be switching panes as in like pivots you now technically have 2 different you know reactions for things and so technically it´s by text book definition this is bad, the fact is though.

Paul: People understand it.

Daniel: People understand it, people use it so I´m not really sold on that and Microsoft is considering actually putting that into the design templates but we´ll see what happens.

Mary Jo: Let´s talk schedules for a minute.

Daniel: Yes.

Mary Jo: At Build a few of us got to go and hear from Joe Belfiore who has a nice new haircut by the way did you guys see that?

Daniel: You know he does all his handling himself?

Paul: You would hope so.

Leo: I stopped handling myself when I got married. No Lisa does the hair and everything.

Mary Jo: He looked good.

Leo: He was, I saw him wearing a Hololens, the hair kind of stuck out, like that.

Mary Jo: Yeah, yeah, but he Joe told us at this private reporters session that yes Windows 10 for PCs will be probably, didn´t he say this summer? Did he? Still agree still saying this summer.

Daniel: Yes this summer.

Mary Jo: He did not say the end of July which is the rumored date, they wouldn´t say that but they also did tell us finally and officially that Windows 10, what do they call it? Windows 10 for phone or mobile will not be out at that same time. It will be a staggered launch, It´ll be coming later this year.

Paul: Not just phone, it´s any other.

Daniel: Hololens, Xbox

Mary Jo: Also for Surface hub.

Leo: Just desktop Windows.

Paul: Well just desktop Windows but as Joe said, it is the biggest market.

Mary Jo: That´s the biggest part of Windows is desktop Windows. So it is going to be a staggered launch, and if there is a launch event in July which we think there probably will be.

Paul: That´s great because I have like 1 week in July so please be that week.

Daniel: It´ll probably be delayed to August don´t worry.

Paul: Summer could be as late as September 20th.

Mary Jo: I´m pretty sure it´s going to be under July.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah he wouldn´t confirm but I think.

Mary Jo: No, he would not.

Leo: Why do they even set a date? Why not just say it when it´s done?

Daniel: It´s a goal.

Mary Jo: It´s a goal but if you´re having an event you need to book an event space.

Paul: If you publicly state a goal and you miss it you look like a jerk.

Daniel: But how do they go and get around this of course is the fact that Windows 10 technically was never RTM I mean it is in the sense of shipped out to OEMs but.

Leo: It´s a digital delivery now.

Mary Jo: It´s a service.

Daniel: Yeah they´re calling it Windows as a service and they don´t mean subscription service they mean that this is we´re going to release it´s going to continually be updated so you´re talking about some features like continuum for phone won´t be in the RTM version but it´s going to come later and that´s how we have to start thinking of this, that whatever they do launch with in July, is not going to be like the final product that 6 months later will be updated and will be adding new features along the way.

Mary Jo: Yeah. So yeah when you get, if you buy a device say this holiday season, you´ll probably get a bunch of downloads this is one of the first things that happens right?

Daniel: Sure.

Leo: I think this isn´t a problem for Enterprise customers, it seems like normal users are going to be just befuddled by this.

Mary Jo: But think about this, how many Enterprise customers are going to buy Windows 10 on day 1? They are not.

Paul: But here´s the thing, I actually think most of the updates that come to Windows 10 going forward are actually just apps and we´re very comfortable with that for mobile devices, people update their iPhones every single day.

Leo: Yeah if the version of Windows they get on delivery day is a complete and reliable, full version of Windows. They´re not going to buy the notion oh don´t worry about it because it´s a service we´re going to fix that don´t worry about it.

Mary Jo: I don´t think they´ll do that either.

Leo: Well it´s got to be done.

Paul: Off the record, somebody from Microsoft told me this week that the way he said you know it's kind of an old fashioned way of saying it but, what ships in the box is important.

Leo: Yes

Mary Jo: It is

Paul: But, those apps, that are a bunch of the experiences that people have using Windows can be updated and will be updated all the time.

Leo: Yeah, And we are used to that. I think you're right. I agree with you on that.

Mary Jo: Yes

Paul: I think that you want to get the core part of it right

Mary Jo: Right

Paul: You can update the rest.

Mary Jo: And things that don't make it, things that are, you know, fall out of the build right before they decide it's RTM, that'll be what's swept up in the next releases, right? And we know there's going to be a bigger update, um, probably this fall. And if they miss certain key features that, you know, not key as far as it being complete, but things that you wanted.

Daniel: Right

Leo: Right. File Explorer.

Mary Jo: File Explorer! No! But some things will fall into that fall - bigger update we think.

Daniel: I'm curious about the phone stuff because Joe's very um he says we're not shipping everything on the same day. Which I think is totally fair. I mean, that really would be massive. Maybe someday in the future they could do that. But, he also didn't make it sound like it was going to be six months out either, and in fact he made it sound like a couple weeks.

Paul: Well, I mean, compare the state of Windows phone or Windows 10 for phones to the state of it on desktop.

Daniel: Yes, exactly.

Paul: How far behind would you say it is, a couple of months? three months?

Daniel: I would say six weeks, to be honest.

Paul: Six weeks!

Daniel: Yeah

Paul: You're so young!


Daniel: I don't know, maybe not, maybe a little bit more, but it's um it's a lot easier, because most of the heavy lifting is on the desktop and then a lot of it is going to be tweaking for phone.

Mary Jo: Yeah

Daniel: And there's some, and there's tweaking there, and then plus you have the carrier stuff to get involved with, which is something else

Paul: We wish ... is another six months.

Mary, Daniel: Yeah!

Daniel: But with Windows insiders and the technical preview thing, that is still going to be a way for people to get around that. And now it's even more refined right? You've got fast ring, slow ring. And Gabe told me that they're considering two other rings. One is a ...

Leo: Medium fast

Daniel: yeah yeah

Paul: Nice nice

Leo: sort of slow

Daniel: one ring is a, it's not shipping on devices, that's like approved, this is like the developers for previous programs. It's not actually shipping to phones yet, or has approval, but it's actually done in stable. So this will be slower than slow ring but faster than the official release. And then, of course, they're still under considering like a ludicrous ring, right,

Paul: Love it.

Daniel: Yeah, the idea of like doing a build every day or every few days.

Mary Jo: Oh jeez!

Daniel: And I brought that, I was like, is that something, that sounds like a lot of headaches, you know, but he actually said that the data they possibly collect from that would be huge for his teams.

Leo: That's kind of impressive. Chrome has a, you know, you get a regular build, a data build, and a canary build. So this is the precedent for that.

Everyone: Yeah yeah

Paul: Chrome is about one one thousandth the size of Windows but

(yeah yeah)

Daniel: There's also a lot of risk there but he says they do a lot of AB testing in these releases, which I don't know if a lot of you guys know, but you guys,

Leo: That's interesting, so you're getting different versions?

Daniel: Yeah, the original preview of Windows 10 on desktop, the Internet Explorer actually, some had the edge html engine enabled, and some did not.

Paul: Right.

Daniel: And then they would pull out data, and you could force it

Paul: Yeah, to see how it's going, yeah

Daniel: Yeah, but they were seeing the results

Paul: They did that with this new build with the transparency effect.

Daniel: Yeah, right.

Mary Jo: Oh yeah.

Leo: By the way, are they going to call us Sparta Edge?

Mary Jo: Yes

Leo: That's the name for the new browser?

Mary Jo: Spartan is edge

Leo: And it's funny, because that was the name of the engine, wasn't it?

Mary Jo: Right

Paul: It's because they name tested the best with everyone, I would imagine, is that why?

Leo: Sure!

Mary Jo: No

Daniel: You don't like it?

Mary Jo: No, I like it, I like it. Think about normal users, right? They're used to, like my Mom. She doesn't know it's a browser. She says 'Do I hit the "E"?' So that want to do something with 'E'.

Leo: Until they make coffee.


Leo: Until they make coffee. I think I'm insulted.

(laughing and applause)

Leo: And now I'm getting applause for drinking coffee!

Paul: Dear Twitter,

Leo: Give me oxygen!

Paul: Leo is a lightweight.

Mary Jo: Yeah, I like it. I think it is good. And the glowing 'E'...

Leo: Yeah

Paul: You know what would go good in the coffee

Leo: Yeah yeah, hey let's put a little bit of this Barter House in the coffee, that will help. It turns into a speedball.

Leo: So Edge is now came with this new preview. Everyone's got Edge now.

Daniel: Not in this build, actually.

Leo: No!

Mary Jo: Not yet.

Daniel: No, it's called Spartan.

Everyone: Yep

Paul: Well they didn't want it leaking out in somebody's build, right?

(everyone: Yeah, yep, right)

(audience member says something about the build)

Mary Jo: True, it's a store app, right. So yeah, that's Windows 10. And we should mention they also dropped a Windows 10 for IOT build finally.

Paul: Oh, have you seen this?

Leo: This is the Raspberry Pie version.

Daniel: Yeah, but they didn't give all the developers Raspberry Pies.

Leo: Yeah we thought they might, right? Did they give Raspberry Pie to ...

Paul: Well did they finally bring them?

Daniel: Yeah, all the, I saw that yesterday all the developers are coming out with oxes and they all ... session

Mary Jo: I think they had a few hundred

Paul: Okay, the plan was to give everyone one of those

Daniel: Right, they could have gotten off, so they did a specific session.

Leo: How is it different? Is there a UI at all?

Daniel: Yeah, this gets into the whole thing with HoloLens, right? Where this is Windows 10 without a screen. And so it's a whole other set ...

Paul: It's like a nano-client

Daniel, Mary Jo: yeah

Leo: Command-line?

Audience member: It has a screen, it just doesn't have a ...

Paul: It's the server code

Daniel: Right, but I'm saying that they're building it for usually somebody who doesn't have a display for the user's acuity

Mary, Paul, Leo: Right, yeah

Leo: Oh I can't wait, that sounds exciting. When can we get that?

Daniel: The SDK came out this week.

Mary Jo: If you're in the insider program you can get it.

Leo: Nice! Anything else from the Windows side? Daniel Rubino,

Paul: We can ask everyone what their favorite part of the keynote of the show was.

Daniel: Yeah, I mean for me it was the container stuff and bringing over IOS and Android apps. I thought the Candy Crush abomb was pretty awesome. Because it was like you've already been using it. But the devil is in the details. We've gotta see how, it's still in Beta, it's only in by only, we've gotta see how, you know, like video games transport over easily, but we don't know about apps. So there's a lot of questions there, but I think ultimately it's going to be good for consumers. And some developers out there. As far as release stuff, you know, we still gotta long way to go. No flagship phones, of course, and we knew that.

Mary Jo: Right, we knew there were not going to be phones announced here, but people were still disappointed.

Daniel: But there are, there's some little bits trickling out now, we're starting to hear; I know there's going to be at least two flagship phones, there's talk of the XL 940 and a 940XL which is mirroring the 640 stuff, but they’re going to keep this next six months, eight months, there's going to be a continuous new cycle of punctuated news. And so, the staggered release helps them do that. It also helps them build up things, so, yeah, I think it's pretty exciting.

Mary Jo: Yes!

Leo: Thank you, Daniel.

Mary Jo: Thank you!

Paul: Sorry, we're just looking at a poor night on my cell.

(laughing and clapping)

Leo: Daniel Rubino!!


Leo: Ok, so we did bridges, we did the new build of Windows 10 Desktop. Continuum, we talked a little bit of that.

Mary Jo: We got that.

Leo: We got Continuum done? We got IOT done? We talked about the new new Windows 10 staggered rollout schedule?

Mary Jo: Yep, yep, yes.

Leo: The show's over ladies and gentlemen. I don't know how to ... no, we're going to save the best for last. We're going to talk about HoloLens. And we'll do that in just a moment. Are you having fun? This is Special Edition of Windows Weekly. The post build edition, Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley in studio, which is great. So there's a lot of brown liquor and beer, and a lot of Windows fanatics, who came out just for you.

Mary Jo: Us!

Leo: Welcome to all of you, nice to see you.


Leo: And, of course, your colleagues from DotNet Rocks, Carl Franklin and Richard Campbell. From ARS Technical, we'll talk to Peter Bright in just a little bit; Daniel Rubino Windows Central. Glad you're all here for this Special Edition of Windows Weekly. Our show is brought to you today by IT PRO TV. A good IT Pro is always learning, always perfecting, and with ITPro TV, you've got an easy and fun way to polish your IT skills, to get the certs you need to get a better job; engage in courses. Now with ethical hacker training, which I love. We talked about this a few weeks ago. Shawn Philip Oreano, who literally wrote the book on certified ethical hacker, gave a course so you could get your CEH degree, I don't know, cert, I don't know what to call it. Those are now available for download along with courses on A+, CCNA security, plus MCSA, desktop support servers, and more! With ITPro TV, they have a free account. I going to tell you why you might want to take advantage of that free account right now. But you can also pay, normally, $57 a month, or buy a whole year, it's 570 bucks. It's still a lot less than buying course materials , much much less than taking a course at a technical college. But you're sure going to get great training on your mobile, on your desktop, even on your Roku or Chromecast. They now have two studios, which means they've upped the amount of content they're putting out. 50 hours! 50 hours of new training materials every single week. But you don't just get the classes, and you can watch live, by the way, they've got a chat room going, just like we do. In fact, they were inspired by what we did to create ITPro TV. They also give you the measure of practice exams with your subscription. That's worth $79, so you can take the exam before you take the exam. They have a virtual machine sandbox lab environment that works with any HTML5 browser. That's nice, you don't have to have a Windows Server, or Windows Clients, to actually take the classes and test your stuff. Group pricing and corporate pricing available. Classes from ITPro TV are being used at Harvard, at MIT, at UCSD, at Stanford. I mean, this is good stuff. Now we've got a deal for you. First of all, you can sign up right now for the free tier and start watching. Shawn is back. He's doing three week hacking forensics investigator and crypto courses, it's going on right now, until May 15, from 9AM to 4PM Eastern every weekday. So you've missed this week's, but next week he'll be back with lots more. This is great stuff! I had lunch with Shawn Philip, and he's so smart, and Tim and Don. There you see Don. And it's a great course. They decided they want to ... you know they heard us talking about future crimes with Mark Goodman on triangulation. Mark, at the time, said 'we need one million more cyber security professionals in the next couple of years.' So this is their way to do that, to get a lot of people with the information and the education that they need, to become hacking forensics investigators, crypto experts, to get that CEH cert. And when you use our offer code WW30, if you want to sign up, you'll get a free seven day trial, and 30% off your subscription for the lifetime of your account. (Laughing) There's Don in the studio, there's Tim with his hat. Less than $40 a month, $399 for the entire year! This is a great deal. And that's for the rest of your life. If you sign up for the year, by the way, you get to download everything, and put it on your mobile or your surface pro, or whatever, so you can take it on the plane and so forth. I love these guys! 30% off for the life of your subscription when you use the offer code WW30. Completely free if you want to take that hacking forensics investigator course live. Go to and find out more. Don't forget, if you want to sign up, WW30, is the offer code.

Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley are here. It's so nice to have you guys.

Mary Jo: Thanks

Paul: It's so nice to have you here!

Leo: Uh, we've done this twice before

Paul: We've been here a lot, Leo.

Leo: Yeah, and it was always while I was on vacation and I, unfortunately, wasn't able to do that this time, so, here I am. No, I'm thrilled, we're all going to go out to dinner afterwards, right?

Paul: I've got to see if your Apple watch can drive a nail into a piece of wood.


Leo: You know, what's cool though, anyone else here have an Apple watch?

Paul: Seriously

Leo: Anybody?

Paul: Welcome to real life, Leo.


Leo: If you get a couple of Apple watches all in a row, and you put them all on the Mickey Mouse one, he taps his foot in synchrony across all of them.

Paul: Oh boy! That is incredible technology.

Leo: Can the Microsoft band do that, I think not!

Audience: That is $17,000 well spent.

Leo: Well spent! No, this is a mere $700.


Leo: I'm among friends when we're talking about this.

Paul: Are you?

Leo: Sort of. Sort of friends. I am very excited about HoloLens. I've said that before. I think for augmented reality trumps virtual reality. You got to play with it some more, right?

Paul: Let me kill that buzz for you.

Leo: What?! No! It's coming out this fall with Windows 10.

Mary Jo: Right. Maybe. So let's bring up Dr Pizza,

Leo: Dr Pizza, who lives in a virtual world all of his own making.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Peter Bright: so which of these is the most expensive.

Leo: Clearly the Avalor, at least cost per proof. Don't put it in the Coke.

Peter: See my Diet Coke?

Leo: No, No!


Leo: I won't let you! He's going to pour it in his Coke.

Paul: I think he should.

Leo: No No

Paul: Listen, listen, hold on, guys, guys, in defense of Peter

(audience): no, no, no, no (laughing)

Leo: let's give him something cheap. Wait a minute, hold on, I've got Yamakazi, hold on.

Paul: Let Peter be Peter. That's all I'm asking.

Leo: Let Peter be ..., I've got some Bullet Bourbon, you can use that. Nehhhhh, how sweet it is!

Peter: Oh, that is good. mm mm


Paul: Alright, thank you Peter ...

Peter: Whiskey and Coke, as God intended.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: So, I understand they've had demos of the HoloLens again this time. And this time it's not the big developer unit with wires and a booty pack and all of that. This is the standalone, right?

Paul, Mary Jo: Correct, right.

Leo: Still as impressive as last time?

Mary Jo: So, I did not try it this week, because there are very limited slots to try this thing. And it was hard to get a slot. And I can tell you when Paul and I ... and I think Peter was also was there in January when we got to try it. We were very positive about it. Right?

Paul: You remember it was awesome, because I'm rarely positive about anything.

Leo: You hate everything.

Mary Jo: I even liked it too, even through I'm not that kind of a gaming type person.

Paul: I enjoyed it quite a bit.

Leo: It's not gaming, it's a new business

Mary Jo: Yeah, so they's gaming.

Leo: It's a new business ...


Mary Jo: Yeah, but you can see through the prototypes a visual field of about this big.

Peter: It didn't cover your visual field ...

Mary Jo: Now? Tell them what it's like now.

Peter: It's maybe smaller, like that ...

Leo: It's even smaller?

Peter: Yeah, it's so frustrating. So the one we used yesterday,

Leo: It should fill your whole field of vision.

Peter: is awesome in every way. It was more comfortable, the sound was incredible.

Paul: The sound, that was the best part.

Peter: The tracking was good. The picture was actually really good, but the field of view ...

Leo: And we should say, this is augmented reality, which means you're seeing the room you're in, and stuff is super-imposed on top of it.

Paul: Right. The way I would describe it for looking at the table: if those bottles were a hologram, and these bottles were a hologram, and these bottles were a hologram. In January, you would see them, they would just be there. In the current one, all I can do is just see part of this. And to see the other ones, I have to really move around. And because ...

Leo: Is that because of limitations of the standalone hardware, do you think, or is that something that was a design decision?

Peter: That is a good question.

Leo: Maybe they don't want people to be disoriented.

Peter: Right, so you could imagine there are reasons not to have it fill (the whole field of view)

Leo: You don't want things in your peripheral vision

Peter: okay, so this isn't <viao> , so you can still see out. But if the screen actually has a picture, it's pretty opaque.

Paul: You might actually walk into a wall...

Peter: So if it covered everything, then yes, you would be possibly unable to see what's around you, and so I can see there is a case to have, around the edge, make sure that there is enough peripheral vision. But that's not enough to justify the limits on this.

Leo: So you're saying this is like tunnel vision.

Paul: Exactly.

Peter: Yeah, yeah.

Leo: That's interesting!

Mary Jo: But, I'll tell you what I heard from one of my sources. I heard this isn't the final field of vision.

Paul: No, it isn't now, because every single person used to complain.

Leo: They took it off and they throw it to the ground.

Paul: Well, by the way, I literally put it over my head, and I saw that little window, and I took it off, and the guy said, 'What's wrong?', and I said, 'This thing is broken'. And he looked, and he put it on his head and he said 'no, that's right', and I said, 'you're just seeing the little window?', and he said 'yeah'. And I said, 'that is not what it looked like in January. I was really excited about this thing.'

Leo: Oh, that's interesting.

Mary Jo: So, I don't know how many demo units they had at Build, 500, or 1000, or so.

Paul: Every single one on earth was there.

Mary Jo: But there weren't enough of these, obviously, to give everyone, even though they kind of set it up in the keynote. Like 'And we have thousands of these devices.' and 'You can try them at Build.'

Peter: And they're still being very secretive, so again, no cameras, no recording devices...

Mary Jo: Right. When you go to see this, you have to lock your phone up. You have to lock everything up.

Paul: We actually just sat in a room and chatted. We're making this all up.


Paul: There's no way to know we did this.

Mary Jo: I think there's going to be a lot of changes. I think at E3, you're going to hear a lot more, maybe get the dev kit, right, maybe?

Paul: E3?

Mary Jo: I don't know, that's like in a few months.

Paul: No, no, that's not a ... that's a gaming show.

Mary Jo: It's a gaming device. I know! They want to say it's not a gaming device.

Paul: No, it really isn't a gaming device.

Peter: No, I think there are applications for Minecraft, tabletop gaming, but like the demos that are showing are, like, industrial.

Leo: You're not going to play 'Call of Duty' in this thing.

Mary Jo: Someday there will also be applications for this thing. It reminds me of 'Connect', right? I think it's going to start as a gaming device.

Paul: Bye the way, the 'Connect' comparison is apt. It's because, with Connect, the story was you were going to do 'this'. And then when we did 'this' it was terrible. But the one thing that Connect did really well was voice control. And now that's kind of the big feature.

Peter: Two things that Connect did really well: voice control, and also mapping the environment around you. And the spatial mapping in HoloLens is really neat.

Paul: It's amazing. In fact that was almost bone-chillingly awesome.

Leo: What is that? Tell me about that.

Peter: So, HoloLens has got IR lasers and sensors, cameras in it. And

Leo: It's kind of a Connect, pointed out.

Peter: Right. And so it will see there's a table there and people here, and it will create a 3D mesh representing these things that then 3D graphics and physics engines can interact with.

Paul: But they showed it to us, which was cool, so, in other words, in the early demos you'd see some balls in space. And you would tap it virtually, and it would fall, but it would

Peter: fall through the table

Paul: disappear because it couldn't understand the table was there. But when you turn on this mapping (what is it called) spatial mapping,

Leo: it bounces?

Paul: first of all you see the mesh fell out, so you see things. And you can see how ... it looks like the Matrix. So now the ball hits and it bounces, and it goes 'doomp', and it falls down on the floor, and because there's space under there it can roll under the table.

Peter: It notices that the floor is there...

Leo: Wow!

Paul: It's really impressive.

Leo: It didn't do that before.

Paul: No, it did, but we didn't understand how it was doing it. The one effective part of the demo we got, and I think you did the ... how long was yours ...

Peter: like, two hours

Paul: yeah, so we did the same demo, was that they stepped you through one feature at a time. Right? So by the time they got to that, they kind of turned it on and it was like 'that is awesome'. That part was really cool. This thing here, so the robot

Leo: Can you show, I don't know, Alex, do you have capabilities to show here...

Paul: The problem I have with the HoloLens isn't necessarily just the little viewport thing, although looking through a periscope is terrible;

Leo: Yeah, let's back up here. So this is what you're talking about.

Paul: But think of the demo they did on stage, where he said 'follow me', in the video

Mary Jo: yeah

Paul: follow him, right? And the whole place applauded. Here's the thing: you can't see that. When you have that on, all you can see is this little thing in front of you, so the video is following you over here. You can't see it. I mean, It's dishonest.

Leo: So what of this are you seeing? I mean there's this little robot and some ...

Paul: oh by the way, you would only see a tiny viewhole, you wouldn't literally see the whole thing unless you were 20 feet back.

Leo: That's not good.

Paul: It's dishonest.

Leo: So this is not what you actually experience.

Mary Jo: But maybe that's going to change.

Paul: Maybe it will, yeah. By the way, if it was going to, and they knew that, they would have said that to us. It's so different, well no, I mean they would have prepped us for that. You're going to see a limited (field of vision).

Leo: So it sounds like there's two possibilities, one it's a safety thing, they discovered that people were walking into their furniture, or the other it could be

Paul: yeah, well it could be queasiness too, right? It could literally be that it makes you

Mary Jo: it didn't feel queasy in there

Leo: I wouldn't expect you would because you're seeing real world objects intermingled with the virtual objects. The other possibility is this is a standalone device. The one you used has a big battery pack, a big attached computer. Maybe there's not enough bandwidth.

Paul: By the way, the Mars thing, right. Imagine trying to do the Mars demos that we did.

Leo: Well you're only seeing this much

Paul: It wouldn't have been interesting at all

Leo: So what do you see? You see Mars this big, and you look over there and it's the room you're in.

Paul: I would have walked away from that. And the way that it was ingenuous, impressive because you can see the whole vista of Mars. I was on Mars, it was amazing.

Peter: Yeah, there's clearly some point. So I can say the one engender didn't fill your entire field of view, but there is some threshold at which it becomes,

Paul: it seems like it does, yeah

Peter: for this it was like, hey, I'm looking through a little box. And at some point there's a point at which it's like, wow, I'm actually there.

Paul: It robs you of peripheral vision. So if there's an object over here, and you're looking here, not only can you not see it, your mind doesn't process it as there. So if someone says hey something's to your left, you have to really look around. You don't go right to it. Peripherally I can turn and tell if something is really over there, but not when you're looking through this thing.

Leo: Well I'm very disappointed.

Paul: Yeah that was my goal...

Leo: I really truly thought this was going to be a breakthrough technology, and it sounds like something went wrong.

Peter: So here's the thing. We know the technology works, and can do that wider field of view. We don't know why it's ... It could be that they said, well, we wanted to have a smaller area with a high resolution than a large area with a lower resolution.

Leo: So was the resolution noticeably different this time?

Peter: I didn't use it enough to get a sense. But you know it's possible maybe there's some technical reason and they've just tuned it differently.

Leo: Can you estimate what degree of vision you had?

Paul: It was like a cinemascope display. Something like that. It was kind of widescreen.


Leo: There you go, like that, right?

Paul: yeah.


Leo: It's like you're looking down a carton of cigarettes?

Paul: Remember if you played Doom ...


Paul: you're getting closer, not as tall.

Mary Jo: like a candy bar

Leo: it's 69 now.

(audience): if you played Doom with a cereal box

Paul: It's widescreen, but, if you had played Doom, or Wolf and Sci 3, one of those games, on a low end machine, you had to shrink the screen down. And they would just fill in bricks around it. So the game would be like this in the middle of the screen, and there would be nothing around it. And then whatever the console was at the bottom. It's like that. I mean, is that ...?

Peter: Yeah, it is that kind of thing. It doesn't say Bio 486 underneath it. But it's that kind of thing.

Leo: Nobody there had anything to say about the sudden change in the capabilities.

(Audience): everybody did

Paul: Well no, no, he means at Microsoft.

Leo: Everybody there was like 'what the hell'... Microsoft isn't saying a damn thing.

Leo: They just smiled and said 'yeah, yeah'.

Paul: You make them sound evil. It was more ...

Leo: Were they commiserating? Like I know it really sucks, doesn't it?

Mary Jo:  ...: No, no

Paul: that would have been nice. No

Leo: Or, I understand, it's smaller now. We had to do that.

Paul: Listen, for all we know, it could have been whatever the sensors are in the machine that looks at it.

Leo: So they had nothing to say about it.

Paul: yeah, no.

Mary Jo: Nothing publicly. Nothing publicly. Because they were NDA HoloLens ... all over that place.

Paul: The problem is, by the time we got into HoloLens, and the keynote, it was fairly triumphant, you know?

Mary Jo: yeah, yeah.

Paul: and then you get to the HoloLens demo and it's like anghhh, and it's disappointing because it really was so amazing in January. And granted it was a giant alien with headset thing with tentacles.

Leo: Well, I'd prefer the alien headset if I get a full range of vision.

Peter: I mean the thing that we were using ...

Leo: I mean so thrilling frankly.

Peter: I mean, the thing that we were using, I don't care about the battery life, um and I don't care about any of it, because it was really awesome except the field of view. And if they could fix that I would buy one.

Paul: If it wasn't only sight based that wouldn't be a problem.

Peter: I know, it's like the one hole.

Leo: The sound was excellent.

Peter: The sound was good, the picture is

Paul: The picture was great except for the words.

Leo: The words are good, it's the definitions that sucked.

Peter: Technically, it seemed to do all the right things, but just the field of view was ...

Mary Jo: Let's see what happens there.

Paul: So what did you like from Build.

Peter: I thought the Bridges were cool.

Paul: The Bridges?

Peter: Yeah. I think the way that doing them is ...

Paul: Do you think this will matter? I mean do you think this will be meaningful?

Peter: That's a great question, isn't it. That is the question. So they are not, I mean ... Here's what fascinating that they Project Hystoria android stuff sounded last summer. Leaked basically immediately, which is really interesting that it's only a year old, because you would think maybe that should take more than a year, but no. And not leaking at all? Mindblowing.

Paul: They were very proud of that.

Peter: Mindblowing.

Paul: HoloLens too, same thing.

Peter: So they're not doing like BlackPree where hey, here's just the Amazon and Android app stored on our platform. We have no involvement with that. If devs have submitted to Amazon, that's great, you can use it. But it's not our problem. And OS2 backend today was the same thing. You go to your bricks and mortar store, you buy your shrink wrapped software, and you'll install it on OS2. But IBM had no involvement with that.

Paul: Better Windows than Windows

Peter: Better Windows than Windows, until Win32 came along...

Paul: And there was so much less of Windows

Peter: Half the Windows

Paul: Half the Windows!

Peter: Microsoft requires their developers to take the first step. Now for Android that step could be tiny. You can submit an APK and as long as your APK uses the right subset of api's, APK will be put inside an app-x package and put on the phone.

Paul: So you don't have to recompile it. You can actually use it as java apk.

Peter: Potentially, yeah.

Leo: I think this is the way that android apps run.

Peter: If you keep to the right subset of api's, no recompiling, no touching, it can go straight onto the phone.

Leo: So is Microsoft duplicating the jvm that's running on android?

Paul: And would you describe this as an emulator, or as a subsystem?

Peter: The android subsystem, if you remember back to 1992, 1993 when Windows NT was released, it had these subsystems. It had Win32, it had OS2 text mode, and it had POSIX. Now Win32 was kind of special, because of memory constraints, but the idea was that you should be able to add these personalities, like API personalities to the operating system. They would call into the same core kernel stuff to handle files and frames processes. But like, from an api perspective, Windows should be able to offer lots of different api's, and they've resurrected that idea.

Paul: Interesting.

Peter: Like 23 years later.

Paul: Also multiple platforms

Peter: of android

Leo: and IOS's, IOS work the same way?

Peter: IOS doesn't work the same way.

Paul: No, which is so messy, you would think these would be exactly the same.

Leo: But Android runs in a virtual machine, it runs in the R or Dalvic virtual machine on an Android device. That's a little easier to do.

Peter: The specifics will be like they will have a Linux-ish personality, I expect. Because Android is Linux ... .

Leo: Well, IOS is not, it's running on an OS10 kernel, it's two different

Paul: So those need to be compiled and run and tweaked.

Peter: So developers could just say well I'll put it in the store but I won't change it. And if their app meets the right set of api's

Paul: Android developers

Peter: Right, Android developers, it will just work. Now, Microsoft hopes that they'll take a few steps beyond that,

Paul: To make it a little more native

Peter: Yes, supporting life tiles, for example. They will have little java exposed api's so that the android app can just have these few extra features. And so yeah, it will be recompiled slightly. Not radical changes, but modified slightly to be a Windows citizen to some extent. And if android devs do that,

Paul: a big if, but go on (laughing)

Peter: If android devs do that, then I think it could work. Because then it's not Windows running Android apps, it is just code sharing with Android. And it still will be a Windows app, so it will plumb into Windows.

Paul: I mean you might see experimentation, they do the basics, like you say, and just let it run, and then later they can go and add live tile support, (...) support, whatever.

Mary Jo: So my question is so you do this as an android developer, right, and then you compile it, it's a Windows phone app, but it's also a universal app now too, right, or no?

Peter: No, the android subsystem will only be on Windows mobile.

Mary Jo: Okay, so you can't do it that way. What about the IOS one?

Peter: IOS, in principle, is unrestricted.

Paul: Right. And why are those different?

Leo: Ah! So we'll have IOS apps on our desktops. How interesting!

Paul: But mostly for tablets.

Peter: I suspect it's mainly an ecosystem thing, like, android developers who've done a reasonable job of supporting phones, they've done I think a fairly lousy job of supporting tablets. And so the idea of trying to expand them to be desktop apps is never going to happen. IOS devs are more conscientious.

Leo: Well, it's also not an open source system. So you have to reverse engineer all the IOS support without looking at ...

Paul: And there are, I didn't get too far into this, but the demo I saw, was, is support for a UI kit. I don't know all of the api stuff they have. But they're supporting many of the native IOS api's.

Peter: So there is a big stack of middleware.

Leo: But is that what you want? An IOS app on your Windows stack?

Paul: Well, no but they're mapping them to things in Windows.

Peter: There will be a middleware library that maps from IOS tools to Windows tools.

Leo: I feel that the history of this kind of thing is so checkered and unsuccessful. I'll be very interested if this takes off.

Paul: I think you have raised the issue we have all identified, which is, yes; the initial reaction is wow, these guys are really open and they're embracing all this stuff. And then you know, like, well, ok, now that we've gotten over it, the weirdness of it is showing objective c on stage.

Leo: Good luck!

Paul: Is this going to mean anything? I don't know.

Peter: Yeah, it just depends if they have ...

Paul: I don't think there are a lot of engagements.

Peter: This is a hail ...

Leo: coming right out as a Hail Mary for Windows phone.

Paul: And there aren't a lot of IOS devs sitting there thinking, finally, Windows. I mean it's like, the missing piece of my world.

Peter: But this is why they also said they want to have a billion people using Windows 10 in the next two to three years. Two to three years after launch.

Leo: You need to have a massive success.

Peter: Because that way it's big enough that the IOS devs and the android devs think actually that is big enough to care about. And being able to, again, position it as 'share my code', 'reuse my code'. Not from my app, but reuse my code.

Leo: We're lucky enough that our app for IOS written by Craig Malaney is going to be rewritten for the new api is native. And that we have a great coder Dmitry Lyalin, who is actually a Microsoft... What do you work in, Visual Studio?

(audience): yeah 

Leo: Can we bring Dmitry up? Peter, thank you. I appreciate it. Peter Bright, ladies and gentlemen. Dr. Pizza, from ARS Technica.


Leo: Dmitry, we've talked a lot about. It's the first time I've met him. Because he did a great Windows phone app for TWIT.

Dmitry Lyalin: Original Windows phone 7

Leo: It's beautiful! And it was native.

Dmitry: One of the first apps in the store.

Leo: Really! It's just georgeous.

Paul: It's going to be one of the last apps in the store, too.

Leo: No! Because we're doing a new one. This is the first I've learned about it. But I'm very excited. And I think it's the first you've learned of our new api.

Dmitry: Yeah.

Leo: So we're going to get you hooked up with the api documentation so you can see how this might make it easier.

Dmitry: It's going to make it much easier, because, today, the Windows phone 7 app, a lot of people don't realize, I've basically written an api for myself on top of your platform. I extend all your RSS piece.

Leo: All we have is RSS, that's the api.

Dmitry: I use the power of Azure. I scan your RSS feeds, I put them into an Azure SQL database, and I create a REST api for my app on top of it. That's how I did it, but it's tedious. I have to maintain double the work, right? I have to maintain the api, the scraper, and the ...

Leo: Good news! We're going to take that all over, it is going to be RESTful, it is going to be JSON, so it will be easy for you to do. And we're going to provide a lot more information than you could get from the RSS feed. Thinks like, who the hell is Paul Thurott.

Paul: Yeah. Apparently, I talk about Office 2010 and Windows 7, according to my bio.

Leo: (laughing) We're going to fix that. That's the old, that's the old. And so, Dmitry, tell us, cause you told me for the first time what your plans are with this, and I'm very excited about it.

Dmitry: It's all coming together in my head this week, as Bill really made me think again that it's time to get you guys onto the universal side of the fence.

Leo: This is what I like to hear.

Dmitry: So one of the ideas that I came up with, and I think it will work out well, is make the app up on source. I mean I really don't think there's any value in hiding the source code at this point. I think it will be a cool experiment to make a universal TWIT app on GitHub, open source it, and have the community contribute. Because I can't fix everything. I often get emails, people saying 'hey, we'd love to fix this, that to get fixed, this to get fixed.' And it's developers often. And this helps me.

Leo: That's exciting. And this is going to be a zamal app, this will be totally

Dmitry: Zamal, C#,

Leo: And it will be totally cross-platform for XBox, Windows 10,

Dmitry: And your universal Windows

Leo: It will be totally universal. I am thrilled. Thank you so much, Dmitry!

Dmitry: Yeah, it will be fun.

Leo: And we'll have more to tell people. As a developer, so what division do you do, where do you work?

Dmitry: I work at Microsoft, for six years now. For the last two and a half I've been on the Visual Studio product team.

Leo: It sounds about code!

Dmitry: Yeah, I tell you about code...

Leo: I'm really excited about this. This is a free simple Visual Studio ...

Paul: code editor. It's not a full Visual Studio

Leo: Yeah, it's just a code editor. Okay.

Dmitry: It has some debugging,

Leo: Is it an IDE? It's not an IDE?

Dmitry: Well, you know, I'll get away from all the terminology, I'll tell you what it is. It's a code editor. Paul said it the best. And it's a code editor that runs in Windows, Linux, Mac. It has the ability to edit code, it has the ability to integrate Git repository no matter where it is.

Leo: It's built in?

Dmitry: Yeah, Git is built in. And it can do debugging. And I think that's basically what all ... developers need is a baseline to get going.

Leo: I'm happy with that.

Dmitry: Yes, there's intellisense, there's color coding, so it's kind of a cool app, yeah.

Leo: That is so awesome. And what languages does it support?

Dmitry: You guys got the fact sheets that I wrote, probably you remember better than me. But I know ASP 5 is supported, NodeJS, I know people have been putting these screen shots in Twitter with different languages getting color coded and stuff. I don't know the levels of support.

Leo: Is there plugin support for languages?

Dmitry: Not yet.

Leo: Ok. But it is free, and Microsoft is distributing it now, which is great.

Dmitry: Yes. The preview is up.

Leo: That's totally exciting.

Paul: I got a hot flash when they put up Linux version of Visual Studio, anything.


Paul: Fall out of my chair.

Leo: It's a different world we live in.

Dmitry: I think a lot of people are going to hear this and they're going to say, oh, Visual Studio is cross platform. And then just to be clear, this is not Visual Studio.

Leo: This is not full Visual Studio.

Dmitry: It's part of the Visual Studio family. So now we have Visual Studio 2015.rfc, that's the big boy, right, on the block. And then we have this new tool, which is light. It's going to appeal to a lot of people. I think it's the right thing to do, because ...

Leo: A lot of us just use code editors, we don't use full IDEs.

Dmitry: Exactly. Some people just want a code editor, and this gives it to them.

Leo: It's faster. Can I compile from the editor? Do I have to exit out, save that?

Dmitry: The editor, I mean, it can run code, you can debug from it, so I can assume it does the compilation for you. But, I mean, it is designed to be that kind of lightweight code editor.

Leo: Yeah, I think that's great!

Dmitry: It's pretty cool. But, you know, Visual Studio is still Visual Studio, and I'm a fan. So I'm biased. Can't get away from that.

Leo: And I'm thrilled that you're going to put your Windows phone version of the TWIT app, first of all, move it to the modern universal status, and then make it open source.

Dmitry: Yeah, it's going to be cool.

Leo: I can't thank you more, Dmitry. We're going to hook him up with the api. And he's going to be one of the early ... Bruce is waving at him. He's going to be one of the early ... You and Craig Malaney will be with the early ... two guy, first two guys to see it outside of the company. I'm more thrilled about that. Thank you!

Dmitry: Cool! Exciting times. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Leo: Thank you, Dmitry. Dmitry Lyalin.


Leo: Isn't that great!

Mary Jo: It is.

Leo: So, we wanted to talk about code. So we got that in there. 2015 rc, that's exciting.

Paul: I just wish Brad Sams was here, so I could verify for him that it is in fact out.


Mary Jo: Yes.

Paul: A few people here will understand that.

Leo: Any other thoughts you want before we wrap it up and go drink booze?

Mary Jo: Do you want to do any cues from the audience?

Leo: Oh, I agree, yes, I forgot. We were going to do that.

Mary Jo: Take some live audience questions.

Leo: Let's take some live audience questions. So how are we going to do this, Alex? We ...

Paul: We're going to do it poorly, Leo.


Leo: Whatever we do, we're going to do it badly. Where going to get a camera operator out here. Zach is going to come out with a camera, and we're going to get a microphone.

Paul: It's important that we not get up yet, because I'm afraid when I actually stand up I'm going to ...

Leo: I'm not standing for the next few days

Paul: I'm going to just definitely be in trouble.

Mary Jo: Bad things will happen.

Leo: I feel fine right now, so we're going to get microphones

Mary Jo: I'm kind of happy I'm just drinking beer right now.

Leo: You know, you drink enough of that you'll be in the same boat we are.

Mary Jo: I don't know! I think it would take more.

Leo: It will take more. It will take more.

(audience comment)

Paul: Yeah, I perfected...

Leo: Yeah, it went on, it continued on. This is great. I'm very glad you guys could come up, I appreciate it. We're going to go out and go to dinner; and those of you who are on stage with us will be welcome to join us. Alright, you're ready to take questions? We have, I think, somebody raised his hand over here.

Paul: Yeah, you gotta let that guy go first.

Leo: That guy? You know that guy?

Paul: No, I started saying a joke ...

Greg: My name is Greg, I'm from Syracuse, NY.

Leo: Hi Greg.

Greg: I fix computers. I kind of fix all the problems that Microsoft developers put in there to try to figure them out.

Paul: Technically, that's all of our job.

Greg: One of the issues that I have with Windows 10, maybe Paul can answer it, is, so, I'm at a client's site trying to connect into a remote share on the network with Cortana when you hit a backslash, or the backslash backslash and whatever the server name was, Windows 7, Windows 8 knew how to do that switch. It doesn't know how to do that with Cortana now.

Paul: I've never tried that in a, you mean, in Cortana, you actually type the...

Leo: In the search, in that little Cortana search window.

Paul: Are you speaking to it, or are you just

Greg: No, so when you're just typing in the Windows key, typically you were able to

Leo: right down there?

Paul: No, in the little thing.

Mary Jo: (laughing)

Paul: Why are you doing that.

Greg: That's how I find a system resource in the network.


Greg: But now I have to kind of like go through three other steps to do that same process, where in 7 and 8,

Paul: In other words, you're sitting in front of your computer, and you want to get to a network share ...

Greg: Yeah, I hit Windows key, and then

Paul: and then you type, oh I got you. Right, that's right. I mean, why not type Windows key E and type it into the address bar.

Greg: I know. How I'm used to doing it, so

Paul: I've never tried that in Cortana, so, in other words, what you're saying, so Cortana is replacing what used to be Start Search, and Start Search would trigger Windows Explorer file explorer window that would go to that place.

Leo: So now you have to do the Windows key E instead, or the Windows key R instead

Paul: Or maybe Windows R, yeah. I've not tried that, I'm sorry.

Leo: Use the Run command.

Leo: Cortana's dumb. She just does weather, movies ...

Paul: I actually turned the Cortana search thing off, although I guess it would still come up if you typed it in Start.

Leo: Web 403 is just desperate for you to say something about the absence of any conversation about the Microsoft band.

Paul: Yeah, yeah. No, that's not completely true. It didn't come up in the keynote, so I didn't answer your question at all. I apologize, I have not tried it. I guess what I'm saying is there are other ways to do it.

Leo: Just don't do it that way.

Paul: Windows R, Windows E, address bar. But I don't know why, I haven't tried it. I guess that's my non-answer. I'll look at this.

Leo: Yeah, we'll find an answer for you. Good question.

Paul: Although I can't connect on this. Um, Microsoft band, there was a session on band in Microsoft called

Leo: And there's an sdk for it.

Paul: And they released the sdk.

Mary Jo: I was surprised they didn't give bands out to everybody who went to Build.

Paul: I actually sort of was too, yeah.

Mary Jo: I was very surprised, but they did not.

Leo: You can't help get the feeling they're all in on the Microsoft band.

Paul: So you're saying this doesn't work ...

(audience): It could be US only.

Mary Jo: Version 1.0 hardware

(audience comments)

Mary Jo: That's true, that's true.

Paul: In other words, it doesn't launch a window.

Leo: It doesn't do anything. You're right.

Paul: ...

Leo: I'm ignoring you.

Paul: I didn't doubt that you were right. You're obviously irritated by this problem.


Greg: I've been troubleshooting Windows for ten years,

Paul: yeah, you hit the key and you don't think about it.

Greg: I don't think about it. Now I have to think about it.

Paul: In other words, Windows 8, for all the complaints about Windows 8, the truth was, if you hit the Start menu and typed, Start Search would occur and it would work. And it's not working here is what you're saying.

Greg: Yep.

Paul: You're correct.


Leo: They want you to do Windows E or R.

audience: It's the most annoying thing about Windows.

Leo: It is THE most annoying thing?

audience: yeah

Paul: THE most annoying thing?

Leo: Dr Pizza says it's THE single most annoying thing about Windows.

audience: ...74 you're running on that machine?

Paul: Yeah.

audience: It started working for me.

Paul: That, really?!

Mary Jo: Some people in the chat room are saying it's AB testing and it's working for some people.

Leo: It must be AB testing.

Paul: Ok, so, by the way, sorry, so if I could further not answer your question. He's not listening. Sir, would you please pay attention.


Paul: He's saying that it's working for him, and she is saying that someone said that it may be an AB testing ...

Mary Jo: I have somebody on Twitter also saying it's working for them.

Leo: Interesting!

Paul: So it may be that's something that comes online before they finish it.

Leo: They're waiting to see if anybody complains.

Paul: We just wanted to see if anyone noticed.

Leo: Did anybody notice?

Paul: It's not working here. Even when you're offline, you could type in, and an Explorer window opens, is that what happens? Is that right? //whatever, name of something, Enter, and it opens a window.

Richard: I'm not actually connected to anything.  

Paul: No, I know, but it would still open a file explorer window.

Greg: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah, ok, there you go.

Leo: Web 403 is not giving up. Is the band running Windows 10?

Paul: No. It's not.

Leo: Will it be updated to Windows 10?

Paul: No, it's not running Windows anything.

(audience): ... seen how smooth the band is ...

Paul: It's running Windows Media Center. Can we move on please?


Paul: Silverlight basis.

Leo: Does Visual Studio 2015 RC support Objective C project migrations.

Paul: Oh dear God, people. Seriously.

Mary Jo: We have people who may know that. I don't know.

Leo: Go ahead, get another ..., where's our Phil Donahue? Oh.

Paul: Excuse me. You can't ask questions.

Peter: The only bridge that's actually working now is the web app bridge.

Mary Jo: Right. The other one is coming this summer.

Peter: Win32, android, and IOS are all ... private

Paul: Yeah, and basically these are some of the post RTM type additions. Okay.

Mary Jo: Is that your question?

Leo: What was that? An answer? Was that an answer to a question?

Paul: That was more of a statement.

Leo: Ok. Thank you Peter. Now ladies and gentlemen, we take you to the other side of the room. That other question. And there's a guy in the back too. Okay. Here we go.

Pete Sieger: Just a comment about the Centennial Brios.

Paul: This is just for questions, can we move on, please?


Pete: The way it works is, you run your msi or your installer one last time in the presence of a conversion application which creates an appx package. And as long as you're not doing anything with the universal environment, it works in a package, in a sandbox, out of the box, no code or anything. If you want to use live tiles or contracts, sharing, or any of that kind of stuff, you do have to write code.

Paul: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

Leo: In the back, go ahead, run, Bruce, run.

Paul: I bet we see basic apps first, and then people add those features.

Leo: Run Brian. In the back. Look at this. All the way back. Yes sir. What's your name?

Robert Rhoder: Hi, my name is Robert Rhoder, I have a two part question.

Leo: Where are you from, Robert?

Robert: Freemont, California.

Leo: Alright.

Robert: The question is, Joe Bellefories mentioned that there was no current Windows hardware which will run Continuum, which implies that there is going to be brand new hardware of a higher grade.

Paul: That's right.

Robert: Because they're not going to put the Continuum probably on the lower end machines.

Paul: Daniel ???

(audience:) you mean videos

Leo: Well, first of all, Continuum is

Robert: The second part is that right after the keynote, he twittered that there was going to be more stuff coming from him on the phone UI. This that come out of Build at all?

Paul: No, that's for the ... well, go ahead.

Leo: Alright, we got to get his mike turned on real quick. Go ahead, Daniel.

Daniel: Okay, the Continuum stuff for hardware is really interesting. Yeah. And I asked specifically about that in a private session. And they're very closed-lipped on it. They're not even naming the hardware or what it is specifically, what the mechanism is. In fact, yeah, it wasn't even there for them to demo to us. So this is really something that is coming down the road. It really sounds like this is going to be some new technology that is not in current smart phones. It will be added into chips possibly for higher end ...

Paul: It seemed like it was octo-core processing kind of stuff.

Peter: It's the Qualcomm processors need to support two independent displays.

Paul: Right, right. Because the first thing I asked about this when I started was 'Does this mean that you can perhaps talk, or perhaps wirelessly use a Windows phone with maybe an XBox controller, with your TV, and have it be like a game system? And the answer was, mmm, not yet. And it's because of what you just said.

Peter: They are still thinking that they might want to offer it somehow on the lower end parts that don't have the dual output.

Paul: Right, right. But not at launch.

Peter: But not at launch or it will require the new chipsets.

Paul: Yeah, so then I understood about that was that the initial design of this was for a two screen display, which is what you were talking about. You would have the screen of the phone, and the external display separate. And you could optionally use that for a virtual mouse keyboard. What they're looking at is doing a screen mirroring version of it which would also work on lower end phones, right? Where it would be like a mini-desktop on your little phone screen. But that might allow them to bring it down market. The problem is that's not going to be available when Windows 10 for phone ships, initially.

(audience): Definitely.

Paul: What was the second? There were two comments.

Mary Jo: Joe's comments at the end about he'd say more.

Paul: I don't think he meant at Build. I think he meant Ignite in May. It was alluded to me that there was stuff coming in May that might address people's questions.

Peter: They published a blog post on Wednesday. He was alluding to the design guidelines.

Paul: No one heard what he just said.

Daniel: The design guidelines have come out now for Windows 10 now for phone and desktop. And so that's out there now and all the documentation that people can go. And on the Windows blog, there's actually a very well detailed article explaining choices that they're making in UI, including the hamburger menus, fonts, and everything, and why they're doing certain things. That's actually a really fascinating read. I was talking with some of the design team, they said that they're going to try and start doing this more often. I really encouraged them.

Paul: Explaining themselves?

Daniel: Yeah, basically, explaining themselves. They are actually, the team is very open to ideas. They're not sitting there claiming what they're doing is 100% right, and they were very much looking for feedback. So definitely, if you're using Windows 10, use those feedback mechanisms to give them an honest ...

Mary Jo: And Jill is one of the keynoters at Ignite next week. So we don't know, he might, he said it's mostly the same speech.

Paul: He said a lot of it is going to be same, more enterprise stuff.

Mary Jo: More enterprise stuff to come. Yay!

Paul: Wow.


Mary Jo: Somebody has to say it.

Paul: Somebody else has a question?

Audience: Yeah, I have a quick question. I was wondering about this bridges will be enough. If we wake up tomorrow morning and all the android

Paul: We better wake up tomorrow morning ...

Audience: And all the android and IOS apps was on Windows phone, do you think people will still drop iPhone and Galaxy and buy Windows phones? I wonder if is this enough?

Paul: Well, we all do. This is like anything else, about three months from now, six months from now, one year from now, we'll have to wait and see. I mean, what do you think about this stuff, (1:50:41) do you think this is a game changer?

Daniel: I don't know what else they could do. I think this is like, they don't have many more options at this point. So, in that sense, I think it was smart for them to do it. They're really open minded about doing everything. Is it going to be enough? The Windows phone problem is not a single issue, right? It's the apps, if you don't have the right apps, you don't get the users, you don't have the users, so you don't get the apps. But then also the hardware plays into that. You have to have a nice flagship story. And so that's what we're still waiting for now, is the flagship story of Windows 10. And every time I talk to them, I get the hint, and they drop hints about this, that they're seriously considering this hardware. They could just make a high end Lumia, plop their name on it, put it out there.

Paul: Why don't they do that?

Daniel: I think they should have. I mean honestly, the Cancum McClaren device, I just don't think, well I say this, but it's a lot harder, rip out the 3D guts, and just make a phone, and just high end. But apparently, when I talked to some of the engineers, it's like, that's actually a lot of work. But I still would have liked that myself. But I think whatever is going to come in the fall for this flagship stuff, there should be some really groundbreaking technology, and there's some really cutting edge stuff. In fact, I think they're waiting for some of this technology to come online for mass production. You combine that with, hopefully, this android stuff, and IOS, along with the Windows 10 Momentum, and ... out there, and we'll have to see what happens. But I don't see any other way, anything else they could do, except for give up phone. And that's just not actually, that loses the Windows 10 story.

Paul: Right.

Mary Jo: By the way, I had a chance to interview Steve Guggenheimer at Build and I asked him about all these apps disappearing from the Windows phone store.

Paul: Oh God, what did he say?

Mary Jo: Chase, Bank of America, etc. he said we're having conversations with everyone whose apps are disappearing from the store, and we're talking to them about Windows 10 right now. I don't know if that means he thinks they're going to get them back? He says we're doing everything we can and we know those apps are key. And we're not talking to them right now about Windows phone 8. We're talking to them about 10.

Daniel: Which makes sense, but the problem is that as far as the banking app, you've had six months of development, so this is going to be a long gap between some of these apps. Although, I don't know, with these porting apps could certainly help that.

Mary Jo: I don't know, maybe. Yeah.

Peter: The web apps that's appealing ... has a good website already.

Paul: Right.

Peter: You couldn't just plumb that? ...

Daniel: The web apps can be done literally within hours. And they can take advantage of notifications, so they could actually put that out in the store as a stopgap.

Paul: I'm not trying to rain on this parade, I'm just going to say, iPhone 2007.

Daniel: Oh, with the web apps up. But, in fairness to these web apps are not the web wrappers that we have right now. This is actually more sophisticated because they can leverage the api's of the operating system, so they can do notifications. They can actually tie into the hardware ...

Paul: Are they doing all that, though? Are they making those web apps as sophisticated web apps?

Daniel: Yeah, yeah, they can even ...

Paul: So Chase continues to make a high end web app.

Daniel: It could even use your camera.

Paul: Are they! Well yeah, they are. In others words, what he means by camera, you're taking pictures of checks, too.

Peter: It may be a crack website, but it's a function ...

Leo: They're all taking advantage of this capability. And it's not unique to Windows phone users.

Peter: No no no, that's a separate question. Every bank in the world, now, has a good ebank.

Leo: No, I understand.

Peter: And whether they actually appify those websites,

Paul: We're trying to make lemonade here.

Leo: I know, I know, I don't want to pee in your lemonade.

Peter: Whether they actually turn those into apps using (It's Westminster, isn't it?) whether they do that and submit them to the store and all that, that's a good question.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: Well, it speaks to what Chase's plans are. But if Chase is abandoning the platform, they're not going to put an ounce worth of effort into it.

Paul: Right.

Daniel: It's kind of neat how this stuff works, too. Apparently, if you have a website and release this app, you put a little bit of code in your website and it auto-detects the app as a Windows user. And then it can do things, like the notifications, and updates, and live tile stuff.

Paul: The problem with all this stuff, aside from the fact that probably no one is going to do it, is that when you, what you just described, or someone ports an android app to Windows phone, and they do X number of work, zero works, some work, a lot of work, whatever it is. Where they take their source code from their IOS app and they compile a universal app. You've just created another thing to support. You've just created another place we have to go when something goes wrong, and figure out what it is and how to fix it. And I think that's the daunting part of it from the developer's perspective. Opening this up to Windows is cool, it's interesting, but it may not be worth it for developers.

Daniel: Yeah. And that gets into the details part. We just don't know what's involved in making these apps, maintaining them, bug fixes. Like even for games, we're just not sure yet if it's ...

Peter: So, Candy Crush has been pretty well maintained.

Paul: Yes, right. But that's also a company that makes boatloads of money. I mean, it may not be worth it to other developers. And I don't know so much for games. Other examples of high profile games disappearing from the Windows phones.

Daniel: Not recently, no. But it looks like now we think, and so Candy Crush has definitely confirmed as being this IOS port, but now it looks like a two other games: Cut the Rope 2, which came out last week is supposedly on these, and Monument Valley is supposed to be another one which came out yesterday.

Paul: Which is awesome, by the way.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah, ...

Paul: You're going to love it. The speedball played it for years.


Paul: On behalf of Windows users everywhere, screw you L....

Leo: I think though, that's really good, and very ardent applause there, I might add. I think that's really the question, is somebody who is considering a Windows phone going to be swayed by this conversation.

Paul: Listen, I want to play the games that were big six months ago. I don't understand what the problem is.

Peter: So, yeah, that's a concern. They're putting it this way: instead of requiring the developer to 100% rewrite, got their app completely redo it from scratch. And you know, those apps were abandoned, it's now a few (pans)

Leo: Or you can just get an android device.

Daniel: Yes, that's the question, what's the selling point of a Windows phone, versus, like android.

Leo: Oh, wow, how exciting, or I could just buy one of a thousand different android devices.

Peter: There all crap.

Leo: No, that's not true, I hate to say it.

Peter: No, like even the Samsung S6, people raving about the build quality, yet this is not great build quality, this is catching up to what Nokia and Apple have been doing since forever.

Leo: That's your opinion. I fully disagree.

Peter: No, no, TCM9, is that a good device?

Paul: It doesn't matter that they're catching up if it's there. A normal person is going to walk in the store, buy an android phone. They're not going to make the calculus, oh I wonder if Angry Birds will be ported to ... they don't care. They'll pay attention to no one.

Peter: They won't buy an HTCM9.

Daniel: Well, but HTC has its own problems. I would say that Samsung's new Galaxy series are

Paul: are beautiful.

Daniel: they're really slick hardware.

Leo: He doesn't like the S6 for some reason. I think it's actually spectacular phone. ... It's better in every respect than the iPhone, even.

Paul: Wow!


Daniel: Even battery life?

Leo: No, battery life is terrible.

Daniel: Yeah, battery life is terrible. So, I think this side point though, getting back to this with the difference between Windows phone and Windows 10, it's going to be a tough story to tell but, well, not really. You could just do a commercial your same app running on your phone, running on the

Leo: Yeah, but then why, I just buy an android device. Why do I care? What is the selling point? Why should I buy a Windows phone.

Paul: This is slightly goofy, but

Leo: You're saying Windows phone, it's almost as good as an android.

Daniel: Well, no, I'm saying you have a tablet, with running Windows 10, you have a phone, you have XBox, and they're all running the same app. And this whole Continuum thing, what's kind of cool about Continuum is that it actually is an easy sell in a commercial. It's very visual, it's just like show someone using a phone on a screen, and watching an app in it, watching ...

Paul: Apple does that too.

Daniel: Yeah, well, this works at a different level, I would say, because they're running the same apps, and so,

Paul: It's not two different platforms.

Leo: It's not a handoff.

Daniel: Yeah. Of course, you have the same thing with IOS and android, right? What's the selling point between those two?

Leo: No No, in fact, people might say I'll buy an IOS phone. But the point is,

Paul: I don't think anyone says that.

Leo: And they do, and they buy android phones in even greater proportion. But the point is, in either case, they're not buying a Windows phone. And I don't think that it's compelling to say, well wait a minute, developers are going to be able to port their apps over. Ohhh, well now I'm going to consider it!

Paul: Some of your favorite apps may appear in the near future.

Mary Jo: You know, I think for Windows phone, they're really going to get the enterprise apps on there, right?

Leo: They need to find some way that they are better than IOS and android.

Paul: And it's too late. Because the biggest mistake they made from day one was not to go after their core enterprise group, they went after iPhone and consumers, and it set them back three years.

Leo: And they got killed by bringing your own ... buyers.

Daniel: But at least to low end market stuff, the emerging market, I mean you look at some European countries, Italy, everything you have 10% market share for Windows phone, it's only in the US, you know, we're very biased with the US

Leo: We're brand aware here, they're not brand aware ...

Daniel: Yeah, but you know, so you can't ignore 10% in Italy or something like that.

Leo: I don't want to rain on your parade or anything, I'm just ...

Mary Jo: They've got to try something.

Leo: I think you're overly excited about something that has yet to prove that it's going to make it.

Mary Jo: No, I don't think any of us are really excited, I think we're kind of doubting with everybody else. I think they're trying.

Paul: I don't think anyone is overly excited.

Leo: This is the Hail Mary, this is your last chance, if you ask me, your last chance to get Windows phone 10 off the ground. And if not, you're taking a six billion dollar write off.

Mary Jo: Which it's rumored they might do.

Daniel: They might do anyway, right?

Paul: Well, the good news about Microsoft is they can suck down a six billion dollar writeoff.

Leo: They could do it, no big deal. It's easy. It's embarrassing, and it doesn't encourage the market.

Paul: You know what? SurfacePro 3 happened after a billion dollar writedown on SurfacePro 2.

Mary Jo: Yeah, true.

Daniel: That was on Balmer's watch, and I think a lot of times stock analysts are forgiving ...

Leo: It's happened numerous times.

Paul: No, he's saying, in other words,

Daniel : oh Nadella will, this will be a new

Paul: and by the way, Nadella was against this purchase, so

Daniel: He actually kind of looks like the good guy. I don't think I'm going to put too much on him.

Paul: Yeah, I think that's fair.

Leo: More questions from the audience?

Paul: Anything else you want to hear us kind of dump on?


Leo: No, I'm sorry, I apologize. I'm going to sit back. I'm going to drink some more booze.

Paul: Actually, give me that.

Johnny Trevorak: Hi, I'm Johnny Trevorak, I'm from Orange County in Southern California.

Leo: Hi Johnny.

Johnny: Great show, thank you for that. Two quick questions about XBox. Last year at Build, there was a lot of discussion about how universal apps would run on XBox. I think it's been a promise unrealized. Was there any discussion about certification processes for universal apps to run on XBox?

Daniel: Yes

Johnny: And number two, was there any information about what the XBox role will be in replacing media center functionality, if any at all.

Mary Jo: Media Center.

Daniel: Yeah, actually I was in a conversation with Gable about media center, and turns out they love their media center users, but


Daniel: What? But it's a very small percentage of people.

Mary Jo: All three of them.

Paul: I'm going to let that one slide. ... This is the second half of the sentence. He can't split the word right.

Daniel: There are a very small percentage of users, a part of their base. And so small that, for them to devote resources to building that out, which would be a huge million dollar thing, it's not that they don't want to do it, it's just that they've got other stuff to do.

Paul: It's just that they're not going to do it.

Daniel: They're not. I don't think they're going to. It's a shame. It's an amazing software and everything.

Mary Jo: They still have not said no.

Paul: I know, that's what kills me. And by the way, they wouldn't discuss it when we talked.

Daniel: I think they're taking elements of it where they can, and building it into ...

Paul: The one thing I can say about XBox 1 is you know that they have in Europe and have now released hodgepodge in the United States the ability to watch live TV. Not record live TV. That's all coming.

Daniel: And in the US, too, now.

Paul: Yes. And that's the followup. It's not PC's. When they did media center for the first time back in 2002, they faced either do we XBox or computers. And PC's made more sense even though they were more complex because they knew that market better, they could make this happen, it made sense. Today, obviously, it makes more sense to use the device.

Daniel: The XBox is already a hub in everybody's living room. It makes sense. You look at Windows 10, what's one of the cool features about the media stuff. It runs mkv files now, right? They're also doing all sorts of cool stuff with music that's going to be gapless music, all these features that the more hardcore users have always wanted are built in.

Paul: I recently reinstalled media center on my personal computer, my desktop at home. And I added an antenna and all of this stuff. And honestly, I look at it, and I sort of fondly remember the UI and everything. But what I also see today is the limitation of something that is sort of old school because, you know, there's photos, and music, and things like that. And then there's TV. But what there isn't in there is integration with incredible online services and stuff like that. And so it's not one integrated thing. And I think it will be easier to add TV into something where most people are probably not going to use that. But some people will. And that would make some sense. You know, you can't look at the one guide in XBox and not think of media center. You know. And I think that's ...

Daniel: And you saw the rise of XBox code now, FloTulu, all these online demand services that you can watch stuff later. They've really taken off. And it's sort of everyone has cable box has dvr in house. So it's really sort of spread that stuff out into the living room, and so I think that's where they're kind of sinking their resources, too.

Paul: The first half of that was about abstract ...

Daniel: yeah, so apparently, they do have to still be certified. We just did a story about that.

Paul: Oh really!

Daniel: Yeah

Leo: Dmitry!!!

Paul: Well, he works for Microsoft, and so, I'm not saying he has it in ...

Leo: That was actually a big stopping point in getting apps on XBox.

Dmitri: I don't think it's the same level.

Leo: It's not as, we were told that it would cost us $100,000 to get certified for XBox 1.

Paul: It's not, it's not, it's $85,000.


Leo: It was a real stopping point, and that's crazy.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: I understand they want to preserve the integrity of their platform, but it's ...

Paul: I don't know, it's not about the price now, it's more about the quality.

Peter: And then, being clear, there's the certification above and beyond generic Windows store stuff.

Leo: Okay, so the store will be on XBox, and you will be able to buy stuff from the store. You just won't be certified.

Dmitri: Yeah, that's sort of they still haven't shown yet, but they tell us that's what's happening. So hopefully E3, I mean, we keep expecting this XBox story now, but, ...

Leo: I know, someday!

Paul: Listen, listen, the next show is going to answer everything.

Daniel: You said that last show!

Paul: When's the next show? Ignite.

Dmitry: Oh XBox. Oh, you're going to have a nightmare.

Mary Jo: Oh, why not! No no. No no.


Paul: Excel on XBox. It's going to be in the keynote. Mark my words.

Mary Jo: Nice!

Leo: Alright! We've got a question from the peanut gallery.

Yeah, not really a question that, and I hate to do this, to bring it back to Windows phone, but I have just one more thing, a wish.

Leo: Yeah shool, wash. I have a wish!

Paul: Yes.

Richard: I have had Windows phones, I have had iPhones, I have had android phones, I've had them all. By far, my favorite to use was a Lumia.

Leo: The 1520, or the 1020, or the icon?

Richard: The icon, in particular. But the 1020 I've had as well.

Leo: Is this your pager, by the way? Did you leave your pager here as well?


Paul: And 1989 called your favorites.


Leo: This is in my chair. It's like I laid an egg and a pager came out. Oh, is that yours Zach? Oh okay. He's selling crap on the side.


Richard: So what I want is I want the contact hub, which is the best part of Windows phone, the people hub. Because you basically find who it is that you want to do something with or for or to, and you can tweet, you can text, do whatever. On the android I had a particular problem with this where I would go to text somebody, look up their contact for text, and they would give me all the phone numbers and stuff, too, and let you click on a landline that isn't even ... So here's what I want. I want all the operating system goodness of Windows phone, but I want to be able to run android apps and I want to be able to run IOS apps.

Paul: You're an insane person.

Richard: I am insane, but ...

Leo: What if I wrote a people hub for you that ran on android.

Richard: No, first I'm done with android. I, apparently I'm on iPhone 6+.

Leo: Well, okay, couldn't that be an app?

Paul: Well, by the way, Leo, there will be a people app on android, actually there is one, and it's called People. But there will be a Microsoft People app on android in Outlook ...

Leo: It's actually a little harder to do it in IOS because the sandboxing of the apps means you can't see...

Paul: Well no, but it will be on IOS as well. It's inside Outlook.

Richard: But an app is an app. Running the app and navigating and all that stuff is the goo of Windows phone that I really like.

Paul: The goo?

Richard: Yeah. So if they could pull that off,

Leo: And you get your IOS and android apps,

Richard: And you get all the android and, you know, and then they'd have something, like do away with all the services, and all the other stuff.

Paul: The reality is the REST mobile platform for Microsoft apps is IOS.

Mary Jo: Right now.

Paul: Right now. At this slice of time, yeah.

Leo: You're more likely to get the people hub on IOS than you are IOS on the Windows phone.

Leo: It's how people, by the way, how people buy the phone. It's that one thing. It's whatever it is for them. It's that thing they go 'I gotta have that'.

Paul: The converse of that is that's why they don't buy Windows phone. My wife will say 'Do they have the parking app that the MB attorney in Boston uses. The answer is 'no'.

Leo: It's just one little thing.

Paul: And then she says 'I can't use it.' Because that's what she needs every day.

Questioner: This is actually a question.

Paul: So?


Leo: But he's going to grandstand.

Paul: Finally ...

Questioner: During the Day 1 keynote, when Sacha was speaking, it seemed like every other word out of his mouth was an Office Graph. What the heck is an Office Graph?

Paul: What is an Office Graph?

Mary Jo: So, Office Graph is, it's kind of like the machine learning piece, where Microsoft is building this backbone where it's going to be, do you know what 'Delve' is?

Questioner: Yes.

Mary Jo: So 'Delve' is like Microsoft's corporate version of flipboard. So Delve builds on top of the Office Graph and it kind of learns where things are, it learns what your likes are, from a corporate standpoint in Delve. It hooks up your interests, displays them, people you need to know, etc. So that's the Office Graph is kind of what that machine learning piece is.

Paul: So, I think the problem with the object, the Office Graph, conceptually, is that today, it's really about an 'inside the enterprise' set of information that it brings together for you personally. In other words, it looks at the people you're interested in, in your environment, the documents you said you liked, or in fact accessed. You have a question that is related to 'I need an expert in this particular topic inside of my organization', that's the type of thing that the Office Graph is trying to solve.

Questioner: So it's not anything to do with computer science graphs and edges and things like that.

Paul, Mary Jo: No.

Questioner: Let me just mention one thing about the

Mary Jo: Hold on, Dr Pizza says yes?

Peter: That's exactly why it's called 'Office Graph'.

Paul: Oh, it is.

Mary Jo: Is it? Okay. I didn't know that.

Peter: Yeah, it's a graph of optics. And there have edges between them to join them up. And about those connectors, it's ...

Mary Jo: And Microsoft is exposing the graph, letting other vendors tap into the graph, right?

Peter: Yeah, so it's assuming that they will

Mary Jo: push their data through there. Right.

Paul: Well you know Office Delve is almost like an implementation on top of Office Graph, or a very particular thing.

Mary Jo: It is.

Paul: Objects inside of your corporate terrain.

Mary Jo: And at Ignite next week you're going to hear more about other kinds of portals, like a knowledge management portal.

Paul: And the machine learning bit means that it requires Azure in the cloud, which is why, right now, it's only cloud based.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Questioner: About the previous question, yesterday, in the Windows store session, there was a developer that got up and asked "The certification to put something in the XBox facility is stricter than what the Windows store requires. And if we're going to let XBox apps, or apps in the Windows store go into XBox, is the certification going to be more strict for those than for apps that are going into everything else?" And the answer was "We're looking at that."

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: Very standard of Microsoft.

Leo: Nice!

Paul: What's that?

Leo: When Microsoft thinks you're 28,

Paul: Oh God, I wish!

Leo: Sorry, just playing with silly 'How old' game. Any other questions?

Paul: I was so stupid when I was 28.


Leo: That was the last time you were here?

Paul: You know what I mean?


Paul: If I could go back in time, I would just punch myself right in the face and then leave.


Paul: You fricken idiot. You know, I'd just punch him right in the head.


Leo: I hear you on the bus. I don't know where that came from. Hey, here's a young picture of you. Now see how old.

Paul: Whoa!


Paul: Whoa! I'm not going to do this to you, Mary Jo, don't worry. That's not even me.

Leo: Who's that?

Paul: Nah, we don't know how old that is.

Leo: (laughing.) Is this when you were in high school? Look at you.

Paul: That's not, that's not ...

Leo: It's Bing, what do you want? Now we know who, you might really such ... as Paul Therott. That's a nice picture. I'm sorry. Do we have any other questions? I'm just hanging out here.

Paul: Oh yeah right, sorry. We're not alone, are we? Ah yeah, we're just having some fun.

Kevin Luke: Hi, my name is Kevin Luke, I'm from Greenbrae.

Leo: Hi Kevin. Thanks for coming up.

Kevin: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Just curious I saw Mary Jo's Sway's from VietNam and they were beautiful.

Leo: Weren't those awesome.

Kevin: I was wondering, do you take those on your icon?

Mary Jo: I did. Every one of those was on the icon.

Leo: Beautiful.

Kevin: Very good. And do you see Sway gaining any traction at all? We don't see it in our corporate empire at all. I'm just curious if it was catching on in other places.

Paul: It's an experiment. I mean it almost...

Mary Jo: It's still a preview. The only application version of it is for iPhone. But they intend to make that big. If you talk to them about what are the future kinds of office apps that we're going to be coming out with, that may not ever be part of the core office suite but will be kind of where we go with office in the future. They talk about Sway a lot.

Paul: Traditional office apps like Word, and Excel, and Powerpoint in particular, you're creating a document, it's like this thing. We're sort of comfortable with this thing. And we know when we're saving it to the cloud as Google Docs or OneDrive or whatever that we can take that thing and we can put it on our phone, on our PC, whatever. And Sway is not like that on purpose. They're trying to rethink what it is to be a productivity application. So it's sort of Powerpoint, it's sort of a storytelling type thing. Almost it's everything in the past you might have used, moviemaker, to string a bunch of photos together to make a movie out of it, or something and put it up on Youtube. They're trying to rethink Office productivity. So it's something that may not be sticky, maybe it evolves in the future or goes away, we don't really know. I mean I give them credit for trying because oftentimes the people who dominate a particular market aren't the ones who try to ruin that market. Although Apple does that. But it's not very typical, and it's certainly not typical for Microsoft.

Leo: Here are Mary Jo's pictures from Viet Nam. That's pretty impressive that you did these with an Icon. These are just phenomenal.

Paul: Well, honestly, I'm not surprised. I took all of my vacation photos last year on a 1520. I used a 1020 two years ago. Beautiful!

Mary Jo: It's a really great camera.

Leo: The detail, the color, just really excellent.

Paul: I mean I wasn't running snapchat when I was doing it, because it wasn't there, but

Leo: That's more important. Neither is Sway, for that matter. That's kind of sad.

Mary Jo: That's true.

Leo: Maybe now that it's easy to port Microsoft will take the IOS version of Sway

Paul: When they announced Sway back last October I think it was, they said at the time it will be coming to android, it will be coming to Windows phone.

Mary Jo: Yes, they did say that.

Paul: It hasn't. But it will, it will.

Leo: Even the low light shots are ...

Paul: That's one of the things it's good at.

Leo: Especially the low light shots.

Paul: What else? Alright. We're still not alone. Sorry.

Leo: We can wrap it.

Mary Jo: We should drink some beer now.

Leo: We can wrap it, have a little beer. We're not going to do tips or anything, but we do have to give a beer pick for today?

Paul: No but we should mention, like Daniel was saying, Monument Valley is out on Windows phone, it's incredible. Also that game, the Hit Man Go,

Daniel: Love that!

Daniel: Yeah that's a wonderful game,

Leo: It's kind of a puzzle game, it's challenging, yeah.

Paul: It's neat, and Candy Crush 2, or no, Cut the Rope 2.

Daniel: Yeah, Cut the Rope 2. Right.

Paul: It's worth, if you're a Windows Phone guy, who isn't?


Leo: Just wait till Flappy Bird comes out. That's awesome.

Paul: Screw you!


Leo: I really want to thank, not only Paul Therott from, Mary Jo Foley from, but all the great guests you brought in, Daniel Rubino from, Carl Franklin and Richard Campbell from DotNetRocks, they brought booze and CDs. That's awesome. Peter Bright from Mars Technica, Dr. Pizza, great to have you! And a wonderful studio audience, a massive studio audience, all of whom I hope were drinking beer and eating food, the dessert is on the table in the back, have cookies and treats. And we thank you for being here.

Paul: Can we have been sort of guarding this stuff like hawks, which I understand why you wouldn't want to walk up ...

Leo: But you're more than welcome now

Paul: You're actually slightly less than welcome but


Leo: You gotta have the ...

Paul: But, you should try, if you're interested in this stuff, you should try it.

Leo: We do Windows Weekly normally and we'll be back at our regular time Wednesdays at 11AM Pacific, 2PM Eastern time, that's 1800 UTC. Tune in Live, great to have you Live, if you can watch, but if you can't, On Demand audio and video is always available after the fact. TWIT.TV/ww or wherever you get your shows, your internet shows, the podcast tab on your Windows phone. There are some, right?

Daniel: Yes.

Paul: They're fabulous.

Leo: Actually, I've got to give a lot of credit to Microsoft because they embraced podcasts very early on, I think they were the first mobile platform to have podcast apps, so. Thank you Microsoft. Keep subscribing, keep watching and thank you for being here. A reminder that tomorrow is a very special day. We're going to do a new show. We're launching a new show.

Paul: Right

Leo: Tomorrow afternoon, 2PM Pacific, 5PM Eastern time. Actually it might be more like 3PM 6PM. 2200 UTC. The new screensavers launches. Patrick Norton and I will be hosting.

Paul: That's great, wow!

Leo: Yeah, that will be a lot of fun. And I'm hoping we're going to be able to get some of these guys and do a quick roundup on what you saw at Build. So tune in tomorrow. We'll see you then. And thanks for joining us, we'll see you next time on Windows Weekly. Bye bye!


Leo: Thanks to Alex Scumpel for running the board on today's show, too.

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