Windows Weekly 399 (Transcript)

Leo Laporte:  It's time for Windows Weekly.  Paul Thurrott is here, Mary Jo Foley is in London for Microsoft's Tech Days Online.  We've got a great live audience with lots of questions.  Let's talk Windows, let's talk Hadoop, let's talk Xbox next on Windows Weekly.

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This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley, Episode 399, recorded February 4, 2015.

Office De Leche

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Leo:  It's time for Windows Weekly, Paul Thurrott is here from  I like that,

Paul Thurrott:  I resisted this at first, but I am getting used to it.

Leo:  Did you?

Paul:  Yeah.

Leo:  They said, but you are a brand Paul.

Paul:  I don't like that.

Leo:  How come your hair looks good and mine is still hardly there?

Paul:  Leo, I can squeeze hair out of my head by just wincing.  I'm like a Chia Pet.

Leo:  I like that, you press where you press, you give a little crank.

Paul:  It's like popping a zit.  

Leo:  Also with us from London is Ms. Mary Jo Foley from  You are there for a Microsoft event?

Mary Jo Foley:  I am.

Leo:  I guess they couldn't afford set dressing or anything.  They put you in a cell it looks like.  A padded cell.  What is the event?

Mary Jo:  I have been placed in ISO.  I was here this week for Tech Days Online.  It's a big Microsoft Online Event.

Paul:   Mary Jo, did you know that it was supposed to be online?  How come you are there in person?

Leo:  Yeah, that's kind of interesting.  You are like, well I'm coming anyway.

Mary Jo:  I just showed up and they let me come.  So that was great.  I was in Redding, UK yesterday at the Microsoft office and I gave a little keynote about what's next for Microsoft and tonight they gave us space in the London Office of Microsoft to do the show live.  

Leo:  Very nice, very nice.

Mary Jo:  We have a nice studio audience.  I sent out a picture of them earlier on Twitter.

Paul:  Is the microphone muffling up on you?

Leo:  Is there a microphone on you?   Is that your microphone?

Mary Jo:  Is there another microphone?

Paul:  It just kind of muffles occasionally.

Leo:  Yeah, every once in a while.

Mary Jo:  Yeah, I heard that too.

Leo:  Just speak directly into it.

Mary Jo:  Is that better?

Paul:  Hold it in front of your face for the next 2 hours.

Mary Jo:  Okay.

Paul:  Move your hand.

Mary Jo:  I should warn you guys, we have already had some pizza and some craft beer here.  

Leo:  Yeah.

Paul:  Nice.

Leo:  Do they have beer in England?

Paul:  Do they have beer in England?

Leo:  That got the biggest laugh of all.

Paul:  The biggest draw for me about England is how much better the beer is there than in Ireland.

Leo:  Oh, them's fighting words.  

Paul:  I said it.

Leo:  Oh no, you didn't!

Paul:  Yes I did.

Leo:  I should say, oh, now you didn't.  You didn't go there, did ya, Pauli boy?

Paul:  Sorry.

Leo:  Alright, I like the laugh track Mary Jo.  We should do this, we should have an audience follow you around at all times.

Mary Jo:  We should always have an audience.  I know that we should.

Leo:  Yeah, so you told them what is coming from Microsoft.  You know better than anyone probably.  

Mary Jo:  I gave it my best shot.

Leo:  Still having that conversation with people.  Got an email today and a guy said that the radio tech guy in Connecticut said that Microsoft is going to give you Windows 10 for a year and then they are going to charge a subscription fee.  People still think that, not true.

Paul:  Although remember Mary Jo the day of that event we were walking between buildings and someone asked us if we took it that way.  Before they said that it had never occurred to me, but then as they said it I realized a lot of people are going to take it that way.

Mary Jo:  Yep, but it's wrong.

Leo:  And you actually asked Microsoft specifically and they said no?

Paul:  Well actually they brought it up, remember?  I don't think that it had occurred to me, and I think that the first time somebody would have asked about it outside of there I would have just been confused by it.  As they explained it I was like, okay, I can see people thinking this.

Leo:  It's almost like there is a misplaced comma.  We are going to give Windows 10 to you free for a year.  You could interpret that as but then after that we are going to charge you.  

Mary Jo:  Wait, we need you guys to call us back.

Leo:  Okay.

Mary Jo:  Yep.

Leo:  I do like the effect, though.  You look like an impressionist painting.  Somebody will do that.

Mary Jo:  Yep.

Leo:  Why the one year?  Clarify that Paul.

Paul:  Well, I look at this similar to what they did for Windows 8 where there was a temporary deal for the people who wanted to upgrade I think at the time it was from Vista and 7, could get Windows 8 for very little money.  I don't remember the exact price point, but it was very limited time offer, I think it was actually a as supplies last kind of offer, which is hilarious, because it was a mostly online offer.  I think this is a way to spur people to upgrade as quickly as possible.

Leo:  Waste no time.

Paul:  Well, just to get it done, because one of Microsoft's goals is to get people onto the latest whatever and get rid of old versions of IE which is killing Windows upgrades.  Get rid of old versions of Windows, old versions of Office, that's half of the point of Office 365.  I think that it is just trying to get as much of the user base forward.

Leo:  I wouldn't be surprised, maybe you would be, if they extended that offer after a year?  Google does that every year, they say we are not going to make you pay for Google Voice calls for another year, another year.  Or do you think that this really is what you are saying just like everybody get to Windows 10, we will worry about it after that.

Paul:  They never did for Windows 8.  I thought after that second holiday season that surely they are going to do this and they didn't.  

Leo:  Windows 8 wasn't free.

Paul:  No $40 or something like that.  But then the pricing went back up to $99 typically for the non Pro version and I think $199 possibly for the Pro.

Leo:  They are never going to say, oh, don't worry.  They want you to do it now.  I'm surprised that they said a year, why not 6 months, why not 5 months, why not a month?

Paul:  I'm hoping that when Windows returns to full price that full price is $40.  I think that they acknowledge that we are in a new era and that the old way of pricing doesn't make sense anymore.

Leo:  Somebody in the chatroom says that it will be like the Xbox One, $349, but for a limited time, and then of course they said, wow, this sells well, we can sell these.  That seems to be a magic price.  

Paul:  Yep.

Leo:  So there you go, clarification for radio guy in Connecticut whoever you are.  They are not going to give you Windows 10, have you upgrade, and then a year later oh, by the way, that will be $10.

Paul:  I do understand that mistake because Microsoft is obviously trying to move to a subscription offer, you know a subscription service whenever possible.  They call it Windows as a service.

Mary Jo:  We are going to talk more about it today.  We are going to talk more in the show about Windows as a service and what that really means.  So hold that thought.

Paul:  Okay.

Leo:  Okay, Office for Windows De Leche.  I don't know.  

Paul:  De Leche?

Leo:  It's De Leche, I like it, that's my favorite flavor.  Somebody said that if everybody goes to 10, OSX, Windows 10; who will be the first to go to 11?  I think that is a good question.

Paul:  Those crafty guys at OBonto or something.

Leo:  Office for Windows 10, what do we know?

Mary Jo:  Yeah, this just happened a couple of hours ago, Microsoft made the first preview available for Windows 10 Desktop of Word, Excel, and PowerPoint; you know, the touch first versions of those products.  So I was in a pub when this happened surprisingly.  

Paul:  Of course you were.

Mary Jo:  I think that Paul has already downloaded it.

Paul:  I downloaded, installed, and used.

Mary Jo:  Did it look better or worse than IOS and Android versions of Touch First Office?

Paul:  It looks about the same, and when I say that I mean the default, the main UI of the application.  It's a little rougher than the IOS and Android versions in that if you try to do a file open you get a Win 32 file open dialog box which means that you can't access any OneDrive or OneDrive for Business files that are not synced to your PC.  On the other hand there is a recent list on the default screen which also has all of the templates that lets you access recently accessed documents.  If those things are in OneDrive then you can get to them from there.  So clearly this is just a slice in time kind of issue.  They are going to fix that kind of thing.  The thing that I am most interested in when I look at these apps is how they compare usability wise, and this is kind of a goofy way to do it, but you can just kind of bring up the app and you can compare it to an Android tablet version or an iPad version and kind of see where they differ or how they differ.  Honestly they are actually pretty close, but already you see some features, and by features I mean commands, that are not available in the other versions.  More importantly you get the stuff that is Windows specific.  If you have a system that supports Inking like Surface Pro 3 then you can use the pen in these apps already.  I think that is kind of a neat differentiator.  You know, it's the first release.  Honestly I didn't expect it this quick.  I was talking to the Office guys the other day and they hinted that stuff was coming soon, but they didn't say that this is what it is.  I just didn't think that we were going to see it this quick.  This is kind of cool.

Leo:  This is not Touch First Office, though?

Paul  No, it is.  It is.

Leo:  Oh, it is?  It's Gemini?

Paul: So ultimately there will be about 5 parts of this on a Windows tablet or phone, right?  So Word, Excel, PowerPoint, those are the ones that they released today, OneNote they had released in the past couple of weeks, in fact right at the same time as the newest Technical Preview.  Then Outlook is coming soon, and Outlook will be 2 apps.  In addition to a People App that will be part of Windows there will be an Outlook Mail App and an Outlook Calendar App.  Those are not available today.  I sort of expected to get all of this information on a build of Windows 10.  I was surprised that they were made available separately like this.  

Mary Jo:  Well I guess that's why there was a rumor that today is the day that we were going to see Windows Mobile Preview, right?  So this is actually what it was instead.

Paul:  And part of the announcement of this mentioned phones because obviously there are universal apps and versions of this for phone, and it will be here in the coming weeks.  I sort of take that to mean that when we see that phone build of the Windows Technical Preview it probably will have some of these apps in there built in.  That's how that thing will be delivered to those users when it is a real shipping product.  It looks solid.  They do things like you can add comments and track changes, things like that.  I haven't done this yet, it was just released, but starting going forward I'm going to use this to write and I'm going see if there is anything that I missed.  Granted, I use about 5% of Word's features in particular, and probably even less.  I use Excel to add numbers and to make charts, so not a lot there.  Of course I use PowerPoint like Mary Jo does, when I have to talk, or give a speech, whatever.  But Word is the thing that I use the most, so I'm going to look at that one very carefully.  

Mary Jo:  Did they put out the updated OneNote today or no?

Paul:  They didn't say that and I didn't hear anything about that so I don't believe so.  I could be wrong, but I didn't see anything about that.

Leo:  So I should on my iPad immediately, what is the situation with IOS and Android?

Paul:  For Office?

Leo:  Yeah.

Paul:   These apps are basically already there.  If you have an iPad or an iPhone, IOS 8 I guess, you basically should, especially on the iPad, get this app.  It's free.  There is some question around, or differences around, what you get for free, what you get when you are on Office 365, I think the situation will be the same across the platforms.  I'm not sure that they have addressed that, but the way that they describe it on IOS is that you get most of the basic functionality for creating and editing documents and that in each app there are a couple of high level features that require subscription.  But they really eased up on the restrictions there.  This is basically free.

Leo:  Is Outlook still part of Office?  Is it now part of Windows?  That's a little confusing too.

Paul:  We don't know.  The Office Team still makes it.  The situation on phone has always been that Outlook came with it, Outlook Mobile, or Office Mobile was always part of the phone.  In the latest Windows Phone you don't see the word Outlook anymore, but there is a Mail App, there is a Calendar App, there is a People App, and those are Outlook Mobile.  In Windows 10 our expectation, and Mary Jo tell me if this is not correct, is that what you will see of these universal Touch First App on phone and small tablets for free as part of the OS instead of Office Mobile.

Mary Jo:  Yes, that's what I think is going to happen.

Paul:  Or Office Hub or whatever.

Mary Jo:  What is interesting, from what I've heard, is that the Outlook Team is not part of the Office Team.  The Outlook Team sits with and Exchange, but they don't sit with the rest of the Office Apps I don't believe.  So that kind of explains why you are seeing the 2 different things on 2 different schedules I think.  

Leo:  Of course Acompli is the IOS Outlook, and I guess it's going to be the Android Outlook as well, isn't really the same thing.  It's a different app entirely.  

Mary Jo:  I'm going to be really interested to see what that Outlook app looks like on Windows 10 and Windows 10 Mobile.  Will it look exactly like Acompli?  We saw a brief glimpse of it when we were at the Windows 10 reveal event and it look a lot like that.  It looked very similar to Acompli.  

Paul:  I can't wait to see the Windows version.

Leo:  There is a strategy here, I've got to tell you this just broke, apparently Microsoft has just spent $100 million on Sunrise, which is an Android and IOS calendar app I've used and recommended for a long time, it's gorgeous.  Much like Acompli, the IOS email app which they acquired, I don't know what they spent on Acompli, but a number of news sources are reporting that they just bought Sunrise.  Now you've got a calendar, you've got email...

Paul:  Well Acompli was already the full deal.  It was primarily an IOS app like you said.  

Leo:  But it has a calendar too?

Paul:  It does.  It's built in in one app.  This is kind of interesting, so we will see how they do this in Windows, but I have been speaking to them recently.  They have been telling me that the Acompli team. That’s the Outlook team, that's part of the same team, they are working on the Windows client, they are working on the web client.  Now I guess this new company that you are mentioning, I haven't heard this yet, I would assume that they are going to bring them into the same group.  They must have some capability that is missing.

Leo:  It's sure a gorgeous calendar app.  You can see it at


Leo:  Yeah, I'm logged into my web based version of this calendar.  You see that for Windows Weekly it puts in some of Paul Thurrott's bizarre...

Paul:  What you are looking at on the web may be what they have, web, right?  Acompli is very much a mobile app.  

Leo:  As is Sunrise.  Sunrise calendar is fantastic on IOS and Android.  It's the one that I use actually.  I used Acompli for a long time.  So it kind of puts them in the mobile space in a very interesting way. 

Paul:  By the way, this speaks to their whole we are the productivity company.  Microsoft needs to have the best of all of this stuff.  It doesn't make sense for Google Calendar or something to offer something that Microsoft doesn't have.  They need to make sure that t they have the best of everything.  Maybe that's part of the strategy. 

Leo:  Sunrise handles invitations nicely, so I don't know.  It's funny because Outlook does all of this stuff, the old Outlook.

Paul:  Yeah, but the old Outlook.

Leo:  It's pretty old.

Paul:  It's old.  

Leo:  It's funny, I just got the new Dell XPS 13, which I love.  Because I have an Office 365 subscription I put Office on there and I thought what the heck, I haven't used Outlook in a while, let's run it.

Paul:  Oh god, isn't it the worst?

Leo:  It's horrible.  It wasn't bad in its time, but it really feels dated.

Paul:  No, it’s terrible.  This is something that you either really live in Outlook and you love it, or at least need it, or you just can't stand it. 

Leo:  It's become the Lotus notes of the modern era.

Paul:  It really has become an old fashioned whatever.  

Leo:  It's dated.  It's dated, and what it doesn't do very well is integrate with Google.  You can subscribe to Google Calendar, but Sunrise and Acompli of course both work great with Google services.

Paul:  Natively.

Leo:  Natively.  I have a feeling that that is some of it too, right?  

Paul:   It's very old fashioned.

Leo:  Outlook on IOS, I like the new Outlook on IOS.  I have been using it and I love it.  

Paul:  Yeah, yep.  

Leo:  They are competing now with Google because Google has its own inbox app which is very similar, although less featured.  It's funny how mobile has become so important to your overall strategy.  For a desktop company like Microsoft, they have to be nimble, but I think that acquiring Acompli and Sunrise is kind of the right thing to do.  

Mary Jo:  It's not confirmed that they have bought them, but there is a lot of chatter.

Paul:  TechCrunch wrote it up.  It's not confirmed.  This is what happened with Acompli.  Then 2 days later they said, yeah, we are doing this.

Leo:  TechCrunch says north of $100 million.  That's a good exit for that team.  I can't imagine it was a very big team.  Sunrise has a suite of calendar products for mobile and desktop users that connects and consolidates calendars from different providers, iPhone, iPad, Android, Mac, App Store, offering a platform for everywhere I go except Windows.

Paul:  They have Facebook.

Leo:  They have Facebook, yeah, all kinds of stuff.  By the way it works fine with Exchange.  

Paul:  Guess what, they will Leo.

Leo:  Maybe that's why they bought them.  It does work with Exchange.  I presume that means will work.  Acompli was $200 million, so interesting.  It was an interesting experience for me to install Outlook on IOS and have a very positive experience and then install it on Windows.

Paul:  And go to Windows and be like really?

Leo:  Wow.

Paul:  Listen, you think about all of those people who subscribe to Office 365, one of the home versions, and they have their little Stream 11 laptop or something, and they say obviously I want to use Outlook for email on there, they connect to their stuff, and they are like what is this thing?  It's awful, it's like awful.

Leo:  The IOS Outlook didn't look much different than Acompli.

Paul:  It looks exactly the same.  They haven't changed it yet.

Leo:  But they will.

Mary Jo:  Yeah, they've said that they are going to rapidly update it, and presumably take it off of Amazon web services.

Leo:  That raises the issue of a blogpost from a guy who says no one in business should allow their employees to install Outlook for IOS on their device.  He didn't say there was an issue per say.  If you read the headlines you might think what is the big security exploit?  There is no security exploit, he just says should they really be storing this stuff on Amazon and stuff like that.

Paul:  Well I think this was just about rebranding it and getting it out there.  Microsoft even before this had a confusing array of Outlook and Outlook like apps on various mobile platforms.  Now they have one, and this is going to be it.  Improvements are coming, they get features that other things have, like or the O app for IOS.  They will get rid of those other apps.  So there are encryptions coming, the security stuff is coming, obviously they are going to switch off of Amazon or whatever, just like Hotmail eventually switched of free after 10 years.  It will happen, and I think that it will happen quick.  

Leo:  Microsoft stores you email account credentials, duh, duh, duh, duh, in the Cloud.  I feel like the guy who wrote this must be a moron because correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your email already in the Cloud?

Paul:  Leo, you are bringing logic to a Twitter fight.  All you have to do is say something sensational and let the hits climb.  

Leo:  But you know what?  Lots of hits.  Lots of headlines.  "What I saw was breathtaking." he wrote.  

Paul:  Really?  A religious experience was it?  

Leo:  They have stored your credentials, duh, duh, duh, duh, in the Cloud.

Paul:  Our language is running away from us.

Leo:  Not running away.  Maybe our comments since.

Mary Jo:  I think it's about how long they stay there.  How long until they get flushed?

Leo:  If you are logging in, because his says well look, I deleted it and it came back, and I didn't have to re-login.  If you are logging into I'm thinking that they already have your login and password stored somewhere in the Cloud.  Forever in the Cloud.  Because it's really hard to log in if they don't have your credentials.  They are like, I don't know you, please have somebody's email.  

Paul:   I don't know what you are talking about Leo.  

Leo:  It's in the Cloud.  I installed Windows 10 in VMWare in my Mac.  I like it, it looks great.  I love the notifications, I'm playing with it.  I didn't want to put it on that new Dell, but boy it's doing well.  There is a rollup, an update rollup.  Is that like a fruit rollup?  

Paul:  Update rollup, as Mary Jo knows, is a long running term in Microsoft.  Obviously it's something between a single update and a service pack.  It's basically a bunch of updates that are rolled up together and installed as one thing.  The thing that is so weird about this to me is that since they have announced the Windows Technical Preview and talked about how they are going to be on this rapid release thing every month they have changed how they are going to do it.  They have released the builds and suddenly the builds have like month names on them like the November release.  Then in February it's not the February release of the Technical Preview, it's the February Rollup to the Technical Preview that they released in January.  It's like guys, seriously.  I don't know why they keep renaming these things.  Anyway, it's not a full build, it is an update and you get it through Windows Update.

Leo:  And it just happens, right?  I don't have to do anything?

Paul:  I don't know.  We just got it today and I manually installed it.  I'm not sure what it would do, but based on what they have done with the Technical Preview it probably will just install.  You are going to want it because it fixes a bunch of problems including the advertising of some internal build that Microsoft was getting that we couldn't get outside of Microsoft which a lot of people were confused and angry about.

Leo:  Hey, I want that.

Paul:  Yeah, it's like click here to download 9952, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, and then it doesn't work and they start freaking out of course.  Who wouldn't?  I did the same thing.  So yeah, they fixed it.

Leo:  You are using it right now Paul? 

Paul:  Uh huh.

Leo:  That's putting a lot of trust in it.

Paul:  Leo, technology has never failed me.  For more than 10 seconds at a time.

Leo:  Raspberry Pie, I love this, it's the new Raspberry Pie 2.  It's a joint announcement from the Raspberry Pie folks and Microsoft.  They said Windows 10, and of course it is free because your screen is teeny weeny, they said $0.  

Paul:  That's their announcement.  I think Mary Jo had the best write up I saw about this, because the big question with this release is what is this thing?  What does that mean?

Leo:  It's ARM, right?  The system on the chip in a Raspberry Pie is an ARM chip, right?

Paul:  Right.

Leo:  And Microsoft said that no one should be surprised.

Paul:  Two days after we killed Windows ARM nobody should be.

Leo:  Why are you surprised?  We are not making Windows RT anymore, but why are you surprised?

Mary Jo:  You know, what they didn't announce when they announced the new version for Raspberry Pie is which version of Windows 10 is it running?  They didn't say, they just said more to come later with what we are doing with Windows for IOT.  At TechEd Barcelona in October Microsoft showed slides which they have since decided not to publish, but people snapped pictures of them luckily, about what they have coming for Windows for IOT.  They have a whole bunch of different SKUs for Windows 10.  Like they have one now for Windows Imbedded, they have Windows 10 Industry, they have like Windows Imbedded Industry, they have got a Windows 10 Mobile SKU, they have got Windows Embedded Compact for Windows 10, and they are going to do a version of the .net Micro Framework for Windows 10, and they are going to do a thing with Athens, Windows 10 Athens.  I think that is what the Raspberry Pie board is running, but they won't say.  If it is Athens it runs on both ARM and X86 processors, and it only runs universal apps, so no desktop of course, no Win32 apps.  We think that is what it is, but they won't talk yet about what is going on there.

Leo:  So it's not Windows 10 with Bing?

Mary Jo:  No.

Paul:  It could be.

Mary Jo:  I feel pretty good about saying no to that.  I wondered if it was .net Micro Framework that is the one that is coming up.

Leo:  Raspberry Pie 2, or even Raspberry Pie, is really for developers, for makers.  Aaron Newcome here does so many amazing things.  He told an old time radio, put a Raspberry Pie in it and turned it into an old time radio that played streaming old time radio shows.  It was so cool.  The Raspberry Pie, $35, the Raspberry Pie 2, $35.  It's quad core, it's really impressive.

Paul:  It's mind boggling.  It's great.

Mary Jo:  I know, it is.

Leo:  They have their own Linux, I think that it's a Debian on there, but to come with Windows 10 that's intriguing.  I think that it's smart to do that, to foster that.  More about Windows 10 pricing and upgrade policies.  Business users, Mary Jo has the story.

Paul:  Free for everyone Leo.

Mary Jo:  Not free for everyone.  So, you know, when Microsoft announced a couple of weeks ago that consumers were going to get Windows 10 for free for the first year that it's available a lot of people jumped to a lot of conclusions about what that meant.  I think that it was Friday of last week they gave us a little more detail.  They said if you are running Windows 7 Pro, or Windows 8 Pro, or Windows 8.1 Pro you also will be eligible for that free promotion.  That includes a lot of small businesses.  They said if you are running Enterprise, no surprise, you are not going to get it for free.  We assume that you are going to have software assurance, and so that is going to cover you when Windows 10 comes out if you have yours up to date.  They did not disclose a price for people who were not going to get that free version for the year.  So yeah, the clause that we still don't know a lot about is that you will continue to get free updates for that version for the supported life of your device.  That's the part that is very squishy.  We don't know if that mean that that if the OEM says that they no longer support the device, you don't get any more free upgrades, or if it means that you will still get them for the life that Microsoft supports Windows 10 which we assume will be 10 years like previous versions have been.  They aren't commenting on that yet so we don't know that part.  When they talked about Windows as a service this is where things really got muddled because a lot of people when they heard Microsoft say that now Windows is going to be a service they assumed that it meant that you are going to pay just like you paid for Office 365 because that is a service.  But that's not the way that it's going to work.  Microsoft isn't going to charge you every year that you have Windows 10 installed to get those updates.  That's not how it works.  They've said a couple of times since they made that original announcement that it's not like Office 365, it's not a business announcement that they are making it into a service, it just means that you are getting regular updates to it.  You have an option if you are an Enterprise person.  You are going to be able to pick to update more slowly if you want, something that they are calling the long term servicing branch.  You are going to be able to say that I only want to get security updates, or if you want to go current branch, I only want to get security updates and feature updates after a certain amount of time.  If you are a consumer you are going to be on that really fast track where you get everything that they push to you on Windows Update, but if you are a business you are going to be able to delay those updates or only take the security updates if you want.  So I think that will appease a lot of people who are worried about well I don't want Microsoft pushing all of these updates to me, they are not going to be tested.  I want to test them.  I want to control it.  So that's what they told us this week.  They still haven't given us the pricing, their true pricing.  

Paul:  So what is the true pricing?

Mary Jo:  I don't know, what do you think it's going to be?  They haven't said.  Usually we don't know the pricing.

Paul:  I think that it has to be a lot less than it has been.

Mary Jo:  It's got to be cheaper.

Leo:  If you are giving away to consumers...

Paul:  The $199 thing has got to stop.

Mary Jo:  Oh yeah, I agree.  But we don't know, and we probably won't know until closer to the launch.  We think the launch is fall 2015.

Paul:  Yep.

Leo:  This interesting update thing.  I think it is kind of a good way to handle the qualms a business has while getting consumers updates, and especially security updates.

Paul:  I have found their description of this branches thing to be very complex.

Leo:  I worries me when you hear that, right, branches?

Paul:  I guess what I mean by this is that if you think about just basic OS development and this notion that you are going to drop a build that is designed for a certain audience, and maybe you are forking the build, so you kind of fork this thing like a tree that goes across, you know, as you move forward in time.  This is sort of like forking for support, or servicing I guess we call it, but each of these things is actually a fixed length in time.  It's not a fork that keeps going forward.  Basically these branches are things that exist for some amount of time and then they go away.  In other words, it's not fast and slow, it's branch A branch B, and then branch A goes away and now we have branch C and branch B.  Then branch B goes away and now it's C and D.  It's really like chunks of serviceable units.  I don't know what they call them.  It's such a different model than traditional OS servicing.  I'm still very confused by it.  

Mary Jo:  I think that the easy way to think of it is that I think of it as fast, medium, and slow.  If you are a consumer you are on the fast track if you take that free one year deal.  If you are somebody who is in an Enterprise where you can have some that are on the fast track and some longer term then you are on the medium.

Paul:  That is just crazy confusing.

Mary Jo:  Come on, just think of it in threes.

Paul:  No, I can handle 2, I can't handle 3.  

Mary Jo:  Okay, sorry.  He's binary.  You are a binary kind of guy.  

Paul:  It's black and white Mary Jo.  There is no gray.

Mary Jo:  Sorry, that's the way that I think of it, fast, medium, and slow.  You will.  So that's all that we know right now is Windows as a service and who gets the free upgrade.  It's like they are trickling out little bits each week about how this is going to work, and the promotions, and the pricing.  

Leo:  It is in response to this concern that business has about updates coming too fast.  

Mary Jo:  Yeah, for sure.

Paul:  If anything it is more granulated than what they offer on Office 365.  I can handle that, there were two things.  It's very simple.

Leo:  What are the branches on Office, I don't remember that?

Paul:  Well, on Office 365, because businesses don't really want the backend services, what used to be their prim servers, just updated willy nilly.  They could be on different paths where they could put things off if they wanted to prepare for it or if they are worried about compatibility issues.  That thing should be less of an issue obviously in the Cloud.  They are accommodating business needs with 365.  With Windows they are almost going over the top it seems.  They are really going out of their way to make sure that you can do it the way that you want to do it.  

Leo:  Alright kids, let's take a break and come back with more.  Mary Jo Foley is in London, England, and there is a great group of fabulous people there with you. Given what Paul said about Irish beer I'm thinking that none of them are from Ireland.  Somebody tweeted though.

Paul:  I just want to make sure that I wasn't misunderstood about the Irish beer thing.

Leo:  Go ahead.

Paul:  Irish beer is inferior to English beer.

Leo:  Okay, let's make that clear.  In fact, we got a tweet from somebody who said, I'm Irish and I agree, but our stout is best of all.

Paul:  Okay, I could see that.  I think that the beer selection in England is fantastic.  That's something that will change in Ireland.

Leo:  Paul is playing to the crowd.  Come on Paul.

Paul:  I'm not playing to the crowd.  If this was an Irish crowd I would have just shut up.  I wouldn't have offered that.  

Leo:  Let us talk a little bit about a fabulous product that we have been using here at the Brick House for a few months now.  I love it, and I want to keep using it.  In fact we have started using it with our Engineering Team and our Sales Team.  It's called HipChat.  It comes from a company called Atlassian.  You are probably familiar with HipChat.  It's kind of responding to this issue that email is maybe not perfect when you have got a team.  It's too slow.  Meetings, well you know how meetings are.  They can be a time sink.  Regular instant messaging, while fast and fun, may not be as great for groups.  HipChat does it all; it's IM, it's video chat, it's document sharing, it's screen sharing, system updates, and code sharing on one simple platform build for business.  Secure, you bet.  SSL encryption means that everything that you write is stored securely on the HipChat servers.  You can go back in time.  It runs on everything, not just Windows, and Android, and IOS, but because of the web browser interface you can run it anywhere there is a web browser.  HipChat integrates with the top developer tools, GitHub, Jera of course, ZenDesk, and more.  57 different integrations to be exact.  57 things that HipChat plays nice with.  Of course because there is an API you can extend it at will.  HipChat, it's easy to set up, fun to use, makes your team wildly productive, and it's absolutely free.  There is a pro version too, and what we are going to do is of course you can always try the free version, but to get all of the features sign up for HipChat Plus at  You get everything free for 30 days including video, and screen sharing, and all of that., click on the "Start Chatting" button, invite a few team members, and try it free for a month.  Actually, for the first 100 people who sign up during this show you are going to get 90 days free, wow.  I keep HipChat running on everything, including my IOS device, my Android device, my desktop, and my iPad., start chatting, it's free, and for the first 100 folks who sign up it's for 3 months,  We thank them so much for their support of Windows Weekly.  

Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley,, you should get, do you have that?

Paul:  I do.

Leo:  Alright.  You can also go to

Paul:  I don't think that there is anything at  I use that for office reasons.

Leo:  Well why?  Can I suggest that you make your DNS point to  I know it's a little sophisticated, but I'm going to suggest it.  Never mind.

Mary Jo:  Whoops.

Leo:  Whoops.

Paul:  What is this DNS you speak of?

Leo:  Mary Jo Foley, she has done that, points to her ZDNet blog, AllAboutMicrosoft.  It's great to have you both.  Mary Jo Foley is in London right now in a padded room.  She is there for the Tech Days Online.  We are having a lot of fun.  So we talked about Windows 10 Next, let's talk about Windows Server Next.  Is there?

Mary Jo:  Yeah, there is one.  There is one.

Paul:  Eventually.  

Leo:  There is one, but not right now.

Mary Jo:  Yep, Windows Server Next is not going to be out in 2015 alongside Windows Client.  That is very different from the past decade I think.  It's going to be out in calendar year 2016 instead of 2015. If you ask me why I don't really know.  The blog post from Microsoft about this was a little obscure?

Paul:  Vague?

Mary Jo:  Yeah, vague, vague.  I think that they meant, after reading it several times, that it's a little too buggy right now to release it this year, but of course it doesn't say that.  That's my interpretation of what it says.  I think that it says we would like to have more testers and more feedback, but that to mean means that it's not ready.  So the next preview that you get of Windows Server 2016 will be in the spring of this year.  Then after that we don't know how many more previews there will be.  They are not talking about features and they are not saying when in 2016 to expect it.  They are just saying that it's not going to be this year.  

Paul:  Since we don't know let's speculate.

Mary Jo:  Yeah, let's speculate why.  There is a lot of crazy speculation for why this happened.  What do you think Paul?

Paul:  Reasonable speculation too.  First of all, there are all kinds of reasons for why this could be.  I do think that with businesses moving more and more modern workloads to the Cloud that there is less need for the Server.  I don't think that there is any need for Windows Server, an on prem version, to be on a rapid release cycle.  I think that 3 years was already an aggressive release cycle.  I think businesses, again, don't upgrade that quickly, just in general let alone now.  There is that whole Server 2003 thing happening, right, sometime this year.  That is going to exit it's support life cycle.  The companies that are upgrading away from Server 2003 are already in the midst of whatever they are doing, 2012, 2012 R2.  This would just be confusing I think to throw this right in the middle of that.  I think that they want to get that out of the way and not have any confusion.  So let's see, is there anything else on that?  I think that is most of it.  Server is a different thing, and of course Server in the context of this Cloud world is evolving.  It was never a rush and now it's even less of a rush.

Mary Jo:  Yep.  I think that some IT pros and Enterprises will be relieved to hear that there won't be a new Server version this year.  A lot of people are on 2012 R2 and they are like, yeah, it works really well, and I'm happy with it, and I don't mind waiting.

Paul:  I have to let my cat out of my office.   I will be right back.

Leo:  Okay.  Server is not one of those things that you rush to upgrade all of the time anyway.  You don't want to.

Mary Jo:  No.  I saw some people speculating that they are using this as a stick to push more people to Azure.  I don't really buy that, but I know that some people think that.

Paul:  Established businesses, big businesses, corporations, Enterprises, no one is moving to the Cloud.  They are migrating workloads to the Cloud.  This is an ongoing thing.  This will happen for years and years.  There will always be some things that will need to be on prem, and there are always reasons for new versions of certain servers to exist inside of the data center.  I'm sure that Microsoft will do that for years and years to come.  This isn't going to spur Azure adoption, not releasing a new version of Server.  

Mary Jo:  Yeah, I don't think so, but yeah.

Leo:  Somebody in the chat room, BibbleQ to be precise, despite his name he actually asked a good question.  BibbleQ, I like it.  "If you break the lock step on Client Server does that indicate perhaps that Windows 10 is kind of the last here-you-go operating system?"

Paul:  No, this has happened a lot.

Leo:  It's not unheard of?

Paul:  It's actually more unusual for them to release side by side, right?

Mary Jo:  No, not true.  Wrong, wrong.

Leo:  Spank him.

Mary Jo:  When was the last time audience, do you know, that Microsoft did not release Client and Server together?  Windows 2000?

Paul:  No, no, no.

Mary Jo:  Really?

Paul:  Come on, there were multiple releases of Clients that didn't have Servers attached to them, multiple.  Server 2003 didn't ship at the same time as XP.

Mary Jo:  Server 2003, that was a long time ago.  That was 2003.  

Paul:  I know, sure, but...

Mary Jo:  It's unusual, and I think that BibbleQ, who is in our audience actually...

Paul:  He's double dipping.  What is going on?

Leo:  What does a man named BibbleQ look like?

Mary Jo:  He looks like a normal guy.

Paul:  You call yourself BibbleQ.

Mary Jo:  I think that he may be onto something though.  A lot of people said when Windows 10 was announced that this could be the last major release of Windows Client, and that they might just from now on update it and update it.  Maybe you won't see a Windows 11 or Windows 12, it will just be something that is there for a while and they keep updating it.  So maybe.  You don't think so?

Paul:  I just don't think that is related.  I don't think that most Client releases are accompanied day in data within even 60 days by a Server release over the history of Windows NT.  It doesn't really matter.  I just think that at this point it doesn't matter because Windows 10 addresses a very specific set of functionality across device types, and Server is Server.  Server retains kind of a classic server functionality and Windows 10 is kind of heading off in this other direction.  So I just don't think that it matters.

Mary Jo:  I think that the 2 teams are still working together, Server and Client, unless that has changed.  But yeah, I think that it is interesting that they decided to do that.  I don't think that it is bad.

Leo:  We are going to get ready, those of you in the audience there in the UK, get ready, because we are going to take live questions in a little bit.  So BibbleQ and the others your chance will come.  Let's see, I'm just looking in the notes, SharePoint Server next?  Is that going to be?

Mary Jo:  Don't forget SharePoint.

Paul:  You put SharePoint in our notes?

Mary Jo:  I did put it in there.

Leo:  Who put SharePoint in our notes?

Paul:  Just kidding.

Mary Jo:  Yeah because Microsoft did say this week that there would be another version of SharePoint Server On Prem in case people were worried.  I know that people were.  It's going to be called SharePoint Server 2016 even though it will be out this calendar year, probably fall 2015.  That's what all they said.

Paul:  So it's going to be released at the same time as Office?

Mary Jo:  Sorry?

Paul:  Will it ship at the same time as Office?

Mary Jo:  I would think that it will.

Paul:  Does it matter if it ships at the same time as Office?

Mary Jo:  It does matter.  It matters.  Come on, it matters more than Xbox.

Leo:  Hey!

Paul:  Okay, that did it.  Now you've done it.

Leo:  Oh!  As they say in the Sopranos.  Oh!

Paul:  Now you've done it.  I knew that this day would come.  

Mary Jo:  Below the belt, I'm sorry.

Paul:  Yep, stabbed in the back.  

Mary Jo:  Oh yeah, and one other thing that we should mention.  System Center Configuration Manager Next is going to ship this year, not next year.

Leo:  Thank god.

Mary Jo:  Thank god.

Paul:  That actually does make sense because there are management features in this release that are tied directly into Windows 10.  They are going to need that to manage Windows 10 clients, mobile and otherwise.

Mary Jo:  The rest of the System Center, no.  The rest of System Center is going to be 2016 for the next version.  So there you have it.

Leo:  There you have it.  Today is the one year anniversary to Satya Nadella's ascension to CEO of Microsoft, and a year later they finally killed Windows RT.

Paul:  Was he ascended to the trinity of Microsoft CEO's Leo?  Is that how we are treating it?

Leo:  Yes, Gates, Ballmer, and the holy Nadella.

Paul:  Nice.

Mary Jo:  Yeah.

Leo:  I think that he has done well.  I like him.

Mary Jo:  I agree.  I think that he has done way better than I thought he was going to do I have to say.

Leo:  He has shown real leadership.  He has taken Microsoft in, is it safe to say a new direction?  I know we debate that, but...

Paul:  I think that this new direction is easier to swallow when it comes from a new person.  He has done a good job making it happen.

Mary Jo:  I agree.  We have talked about this on the show before.  A lot of the things that he has resided over like Office for iPad, Office Touch First for Windows, that is really a Ballmer thing.  Open sourcing the .net stack was something that Steve Ballmer put in process.  But he is the one who gets the credit because it happened under his leadership.  The next year is going to be really interesting because now we are going to start to see more Nadella led projects come to the floor, right?

Leo:  Although you have got to say, Microsoft has announced that they are not making the 2625 anymore, the Lumia RT?

Paul:  2520.

Leo:  2520, that's right, the last Windows RT device.  The Surface Mini, we are probably not going to see that anymore.  That was the first thing that he did.

Paul:  Yeah, right.

Leo:  The Surface 2 is also gone, but that is normal.

Paul:  Yeah, I think that the traditional Windows, I'm actually not sure about this as I say it, the current gen of Windows RT tablets has come to an end.  The question remains now for Windows 10 because I guess that Windows 10 will run on ARM, and obviously Windows Phone devices will be ARM, and I suppose that the question is will we see any very small tablets run ARM for Windows 10?  There is a Microsoft slide out there that suggests that that is possible, so it's not definitely gone, but that thing that we call Windows RT I guess is gone.

Mary Jo:  It might not be from Microsoft that we see another ARM tablet.  It might be from an OEM.  

Leo:  Alright, I think that we are ready for questions from the audience if you want to field those Mary Jo?

Mary Jo:  Yes, we have Ed Baker from Microsoft who has been our loyal guy setting everything up here.  He has been amazing.  He is going to pass the microphone around and we are going to let people ask them directly.  

Steve Baker:  Are you going to point to who you want first?

Mary Jo:  Sure, I will point.  Who wants to ask something?  Right here in the front row.

Audience member:  Thanks Mary Jo.  Hi guys.  Just wanted to ask so if Windows RT has been killed off as the platform does that mean that the Runtime is gone as well?  Because the Runtime was for application development as well as an operating system in its own right.

Paul:  No, I think that the evolved version of that is Windows 10, right?

Leo:  They are not the same thing, right?  I thought that was confusing nomenclature.  

Mary Jo:  Really confusing, yeah.

Paul:  The Runtime and platform is consistent across X86 and ARM, right?   So this is evolved and continues on Windows 10.

Mary Jo:  Right, so Windows RT is not Win RT.  Win RT is alive and Windows RT is not.

Leo:  Is dead.

Paul:  Yeah, exactly.

Leo:  That was harsh.  

Mary Jo:  Yeah, dead, I guess not means dead.  Who else?  Come on?

Steve:  Our next question is from Brian Burn from Fixing Technology. 

Mary Jo:  Oh nice, thanks.

Leo:  I didn't know it was broken.

Brian Burn:  There is a decline in Microsoft device share that has just come out.  What must it do to encourage developers on that platform?

Paul:  So actually I think that this, I almost called it a plot, this strategy that they have with Windows 10 and the Universal App Platform where you can write apps that run on Internet of Things, on embedded devices, on phones, tablets of all sizes, PCs, laptops, desktop PCs, and Xbox is very attractive.  I don't think that we are returning to the world where Windows is #1.  Android is a humongous platform.  They sold over a billion devices last year.  IOS is a very big platform.  Certainly I think this is a way to be in the mix.  Honestly, if you look at PC sales compared to device sales, even if Microsoft is the #3 platform I don't see any reason why the Windows Platform can't grow over the next several years.  Even if they stay #3 they should see upside just in device numbers.  It won't come necessarily from traditional phones and tablets because we don't seem to be doing very well in those markets, but I guess we will see, but maybe mostly from these other things; from other device types and so forth.  I think that it just makes it more of an attractive target for developers when you can write once across all of these things.  The Mac has seen a lot of success in recent years, but app development on the Mac hasn't necessarily exploded like it has on IOS even though the tools are the same and the APIs are the same.  The devices are just different, and I think that they might be a little too different.  You can't run IOS apps on a Mac.  I think that the ability to make an app that runs across all of those device types is something unique and something that will be attractive to developers.  That's the plan anyway.

Mary Jo:  I think that the part that has to happen to make that work is that Windows 10 has to be a success with Windows 7 users.  If it is not then that universal app strategy doesn't look as appealing.  If everybody who is running Windows 7 upgrades then it gets more interesting if you are a developer, right?  If they don't and it's more like Windows 8 then it is not that interesting if you are a developer.

Paul:  Right.  It's the difference between a couple of hundred million people and over a billion people.  

Mary Jo:  Right, yep.  

Steve:  Our next question is from Richard Stewart who is a product evangelist from Microsoft.

Richard Stewart:  Hi Mary Jo, I'm going to ask a question to you about Hadoop, which I know you love.  Do you think that Microsoft will continue to in a sense fork Hadoop and add continual features and increased insight to Azure customers?

Mary Jo:  I do think that they will continue to do that.  I also think that they will be doing something very interesting.  They are creating their own big data analysis service called Cosmos, internally it's called Cosmos.  They are building a version of that that is going to be available to outside customers I've heard from my sources.  I don't know when, but they are starting to recruit testers fro that right now, and they are positioning that as something that sits alongside of HD Insight and the other analytics products that they have on Azure.  It will be interesting to see if that actually ends up competing and they will make that more of the fork or if that will be a true compliment.  

Paul:  I would like to say everything that I can about Hadoop.  And I'm done.

Leo:  It's a short conversation.

Steve:  Next question is from Jim Chapman from Turnipsoft.  

Jim Chapman:  Hi there Mary, Jim Chapman, I am an independent developer working on Windows Phone.  I was on the platform with my app in Windows Mobile days, then it was Windows 7, Windows 7.1, Mango, 88.1, universal apps, across to the new Windows 8 and Windows 8.1.   I have spent better than 75% of my app development hours in the last 4 years taking existing features and porting them to new APIs, just running to stand still.  What's your perspective on this?  Do you think that with Windows 10 and the universal app thing am I going to have a stable set of APIs to code to so that I can be adding new features to my apps rather than just running to stand still?

Leo:  That is such a pain point.  Holy cow.

Mary Jo:  Yeah, it is.  I know.  I don't know for a fact that you will, but I would hope that you will.  They must hear this feedback from other developers, right?  This is not some new thing that you are bringing up here.  I don't know, Paul, you haven't heard anything specific to the new API set have you?  For universal apps.

Paul:  No, that's been the weird thing.  To this day they haven't really talked about it.  Obviously Build is happening at the end of April, which is about 2 months from now.  On or before that date I would assume that we are going to hear this very story.  Between then we are going to get the Windows Phone update, we will see what that looks like, but I'm really kind of surprised, historically from Microsoft the developer thing came first.  That was always how they lead the platform out the door.  This time it seems like the developer stuff is coming not last, but near last.  We just don't know.  I don't know.

Leo:  That has to really discourage people.

Mary Jo:  We will hear at Build, right?  

Leo:  Is that typical that somebody spends so much time just updating for the new APIs?  

Paul:  Well it depends on what you are talking about.  I'm not a developer, but know how the APIs have evolved and how new APIs come in with different platforms.  Maybe a developer can tell me differently, but it seems to me that Windows Phone was Servalite and then it was sort of WinPRT, and Windows 8 was when RT and those things were similar but not the same.  It makes it hard when you want to call location services and you want to do specific things through the APIs and they are different through each platform and it's weird.  Then they update them to be the same, but then they have these new things that need to be updated for the new platform.  It's just kind of a tough treadmill to be on.  Hopefully with this new developer platform they can kind of plant a stake and say this is where we are at and we are going to be here for a while.  We are going to update this thing, we are not going to have a bunch of different stuff going on.  I'm sure that is what it is, but it is notable that this has not happened yet, and I don't know why.

Steve:  Our next question is from BibbleQ, or Bentley...

Leo:  And the crowd goes wild!  It's BibbleQ, oh my god!

Paul:  It sounds like a character from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.  

Leo:  I love him!

Bibble Q: Yeah, it’s a bit more of a consumer-oriented question: I’ve been a media user for a long, long time. Do you think with the convergence between Windows 10 and Xbox and the fact that there’s the tuner for Xbox over here and in Australia that there might be any sort of a light at the end of the tunnel around that for us fans?

Steve: No.

[laughing from everyone]

Leo: Next question, please.

Mary Jo: We don’t know. We don’t know. [laughing]

Leo: I hope so. I hope so, right?

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: It’s not in Windows 10 Technical Preview, right?

Paul: Actually, you can add Media Center, I think, to the latest bill. I think it is in there. I haven’t done it, but you know obviously it  has not been updated or anything, and it wasn’t updated for Wednesday.

Mary Jo: The one thing I’ll say is, the current Operating System group team seems intent on overturning many, if not all, of the decisions made by the former Windows 8 team. So maybe there’s a slight glimmer of hope.

Leo: Yeah [laughing]. I’m reading a thread on the Microsoft support group. It says, ‘You can get Windows Media Center by going to the Control Panel and clicking ‘Add Features’, but oddly this renames the Tech Preview to Windows 8.1 with Media Center [laughing].

[All laughing].

Paul: Nice! You know what? A relic of the code. So…

Leo: So you might be confused, but you can do it.

Paul: I guess… You know what? I’ll say this: When you think about the era in which Windows Media Center came, right? Getting over-the-air or cable- based access to CB signals was kind of the way the content was going to come into the computer. And if you look at it the way it is today, whether you’re talking about an Xbox One or a computer... I mean, primarily now we have services where we get that kind of content from, but as an audience for over the air TV at least, right? Maybe you watch sports, or you just want to record TV shows that way, they have accommodated that on the Xbox One in Europe (not in the United States, oddly), although they do let you pass through your cable system in the United States. And that’s kind of a nice hybrid solution, in a way. For the people who do want that, it’s there. And so, like Mary Jo, I think that leaves open the hope that something will be there. I don’t think we’re going to see traditional Media Center as it was in 2003, but some interface that is access to services, plus you have this live TV signal. I think it’s possible. Well, it is possible. It wouldn’t surprise me if they offered something.

Leo: You’re right. The world has changed, though.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Right. And it’s not like they’re going to drop support for NetFlix and stuff like that, but you want to accommodate everybody, and I think there is a solution that can be had there, and I think what they have with the Xbox maybe forms a guide of how that might happen, or how it should happen, I guess.

Mary Jo: More questions?

Leo: Any more? Any more?

Paul: Media Center is always the showstopper, I guess.

Leo: Everybody’s thinking.

Paul: Now everybody’s kicking their feet. They’re all disgruntled.

Steve: No. There’s more. There’s more.

Mary Jo: We have another question.

Steve: We have another question from Sarabenet Kumora.

Sarabenet Kumora: Hi. My name is Sarabenet Kumora. I’m Integration MVP. I work mainly in bigstock area. I think a few months ago in 2014 my super announced a bunch of new directions they’re taking in the integration space, especially more endorsed Microsoft research and how it’s going to come down to the ----, the same set of things. I guess you even mentioned about it in your--- column. So what’s your take on the Microsoft visas and how is it going to influence the on---mode. Do you have any input on that?

Mary Jo: A Biz Talk Question? Whoo!  Hadoop and Biz Talk, and we  Share Point, too? Wow!

Leo: All right. Paul is going to play Solitude and you can go take over here.

Mary Jo: [laughing]. I think the most interesting thing I’ve heard about Biz Talk lately was in December there was a conference in Redmond where they talked about the next version of Biz Talk services and they talked a lot about the concept of turning Biz Talk into more of a micro services platform and making that a very key piece of what happens with As Your Platform as a service. They said, ‘The way we’re turning Biz Talk services into a bunch of micro services connected together is going to tell you kind of where we’re going with As Your Platform as a service.’ So that’s kind of what I’m watching for, and I don’t know how that’s going to come back down to the en crème version of this talk, but I think you’re going to hear a lot more about this talk in this podcast and in other places in the coming year.

Paul: That was a threat!

Leo: [laughing]

Mary Jo: It was.

[all laughing]

British voice from off-screen: I don’t think you can ignore…

Mary Jo: You’re right. You cannot ignore it. Yes, they try, but you cannot. Another question, I see.

Steve: Yes, we have a question from Musman Mohammed. He’s a student, and I think it might be a student question.

Mary Jo: Thanks.

Musman Mohammed: So this one’s directed to Paul, because most of the questions have been more about enterprise. Have you had a chance to play the new Call of Duty download and try …this other part?

Paul: Yes, I have, and God bless you.

Mary Jo and Leo: [laughing]

Paul: Actually, it’s funny. I probably spent more time over the past several years playing Call of Duty than all of the games combined. And one of the things I did recently was I actually had been playing the older games—the ones, you know—Water Warfare Plus, and I prefer them to the new game. And they released this new mat pack for this game, and I’m trying to figure out why I don’t care about the new game as much as the old games. I haven’t quite put my finger on it yet, and I appreciate new content. I appreciate the availability of new apps and all that stuff, and I think that’s an important thing for keeping interest up over the course of the year until now, but this one’s left me a little cold for some reason. I can’t quite figure out why.

Leo: [jokingly] But I’d like to explore it for the next sixty-five minutes if I could…

[all laughing]

Paul: I’m kidding.

Mary Jo: Oh, I forgot to tell you, Paul. Yesterday when I was in Redding, on the Redding Campus, I did a podcast starting up for The Expert Zone. It’s called In the Loop.

Paul: Mmm-hmm.

Mary Jo: And they brought me into this amazing room on the campus with fifteen different X-Box setups in there where all the Microsoft employees could come in and play games. So I went in and they’re like, ‘You’re in the X-Box room!’ And I was like, ‘Oh.’

[laughter all around]

Mary Jo: And then they said, “Too bad Paul’s not here. He would actually love this!”

Paul: You know, for most human beings this is like Disney World.

Mary Jo: It is.

Leo: Mary Jo says, “Do you have a Hadoop Room?”

Paul: Yeah, exactly.

Paul: Does one of these have an OPad running on them?

Mary Jo: They do, and it’s all like a padded cell.

Leo: Oooh, oooh. Anything else? We’ve got time.

Mary Jo: Do you want to take  couple more?

Leo: We can.

Steve: A question from Manaj.

Manaj: Hi, guys! On a more serious note, what’s the budget for the website?

[Hysterical laughter from Mary Jo and Leo]

Leo: Uhhh, yeah.

Paul: Basically, under 250 is what I’m hearing.

Leo: Well, we’ve already spent 150, so…I don’t know what to do with that. Maybe 100.

Mary Jo: [laughing nervously]

Leo: [To Manaj:] Could you do us a website for 100 dollars?

[all laughing]

Leo: I don’t know.

Paul: I would gladly get a website now for a hamburger tomorrow.

Leo: It’s funny. There’s this thing where a normal person would go to SquareSpace or Blogger or somewhere and make a website.

Paul: Sure.

Leo: Or download WordPress, install it on a server and make a website.

Paul: Sure.

Leo: And then you’ve got the massive biz. I don’t know what Exon, and you know, what they do, but then what does a small business do? Do you go to Wicks or SquareSpace? I mean, we have kind of weird…

Paul: Yeah, because you don’t just need someone to build a site. You have to maintain it…

Leo: We’re a podcast network. It’s just unusual…

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: But very rarely have we had… We’ve gone through some really bad experiences and ridiculously much larger than we thought.

Paul: I’ve always been very happy with my own website, so I’m not sure what these kind of problems might be…

Leo: Yeah right. Yeah. But could you guess how much Penton spent on the content management system you guys used?

Paul: I’m pretty sure they spent negative…

Leo: [laughing] As little as possible.

Paul: I think they got it at a yard sale.

Leo: I want to go talk to SquareSpace and see. We’ll need some help because we have some specialized custom stuff, but…

Paul: Sure. But that should appeal to them.

Leo: I feel like we’ve just not…I don’t know. I feel as normal people must when they’re faced with technologies. It’s like, ‘I don’t get it’.

Paul: Yeah. What’s happening?

Leo: And I understand web technologies. I understand all of this stuff. I’ve done my own sites for years. But there’s something that happens when you get designers and programmers in a room. You get agile and you’re scrumming, and now you have a scrum master. And pretty soon now a hundred thousand dollars—BOOM—out the door!

Mary Jo: [laughing]

Leo: We have a scrum master. He’s on the payroll—our scrum master. You don’t ever want a scrum master.

Paul: If I use the word “scrum” it’s because I’m rolling around in the mud with some guy.

Leo: Thus guy has a certification in scrumming. But I annoy him because I don’t call him a scrum master. I just call him ‘scrumster’. [Laughing] And I think that bothers him a little bit…

Paul: Nice. Scrumming is a service.

[All laughing]

Leo: It’s like that. That’s sassy!  Any other questions from the lovely folks in London?

Mary Jo: Yes.

Leo: That’s a great crew there. I want them there for all of our shows from now on.

Mary Jo: I know. Me too.

Paul: I want to know why all of these people sounds like Dan Stevens. It’s like a collection of guys that used to play James Bond in the movies.

[laughter from everyone]

Mary Jo: Yes, there is another one.

Daniel: I’m Daniel, and I’m a student. I’ve heard that Microsoft has opened a new part of the site shop, calling them Run Time and the Environment. Does this include the Windows forms for Linux? And I’m wondering what the biggest strategy is recently, if it ties into Microsoft’s recent seventy million-dollar investment in Cy and Maxine…, as they’ve been open source more of the common language Run Time?

Mary Jo: Wow.

Paul: I’ve got to ask a question before we answer this question. Is there, in fact, a Windows form for Linux or are you just speculating that this is…

[laughing off-screen]

Mary Jo: Is there?

Paul: I don’t believe there is. Unless Mono made one, maybe or the Zammer guys. Certainly opening up the core of .net. This is the bizarre vacation we’re heading toward, right? I mean, anything is possible at this point.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: I just don’t think Microsoft is going to be the one that does it.

Mary Jo: And we haven’t heard for sure that they’ve invested the money in—how do you say it---Cyanogen. Yeah, right. That so far is still an unconfirmed rumor, but I can still see them doing this.

[Barely audible talking off-screen from Daniel]

Mary Jo: And I’ve read in a couple of places other reporters doing this, and they might doing it to make sure that there is a distribution of Android that is more friendly to Microsoft services. You could say maybe they’re doing it as part of this rumored Android Apps on Windows and Windows Phone initiative?

Paul: Sure.

Mary Jo: Or some people said they’re just doing it to mess with Google, maybe.

[Laughter heard from off-screen]

Paul: I think so.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: It may be literally related to that earlier dinette topic. Getting this stuff going… When you think about universal apps—universal across Microsoft stuff is interesting. But it gets really interesting if universal apps include not-Microsoft platforms.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: I don’t think it’s going to happen tomorrow, but that’s an interesting future. Yeah.

Mary Jo: Right. Right now, ‘universal apps’ mean universal across Windows. What if it really meant universal across everything?

Paul: Yep. Right, right.

Mary: Yeah. See, that was a good one.

Paul: No more X-Box questions, huh? Weird.

Leo: Are you going to play Far Cry of War, or what do you think?

Mary Jo: There is one more last question. I don’t know if it’s an X-Box question.

X: Hi. My name is Martin and I’m a researcher. It’s not an X-Box question. It’s a Windows question. It’s a little bit like full-circle. Do you remember how right at the beginning you discussed how some people misunderstood Windows 10 as free for a year to mean that from 2016 on people would have to pay a subscription fee, which of course I don’t quite understand how people could make that mistake because I thought it was perfectly clear that we’re talking about an upgrade? An acquaintance of mine has brought up a very interesting variation of this aspect and suggested that, yes, maybe the upgrade to Windows 10 would be free for a year, but eventually there will be expansion in 2017, 2018. Maybe those, then, will become non-free. I was just wondering—not to get me wrong—Microsoft has to get money somewhere. I was wondering, has there been any rumors or speculation or comments on that?

Mary Jo: I have not heard any speculation on that. You know, before they announced this Windows as a service there were a lot of rumors that there was going to be something called Windows 365. But the people who were spreading those rumors, actually—I think—stumbled onto a student project in Europe somewhere where they built something they called Windows 365 and I think the people that were spreading these rumors thought that project was a Microsoft project. That’s my guess where a lot of that was coming from. But as far as when will Microsoft ever charge people to upgrade, I don’t know. If they do support Windows for ten years and Windows 10 comes out this year, that could put us in 2015. Sorry…2025. You can tell it’s the end of the night [laughing].

Paul: [laughing] Too many Irish beers, Mary Jo.

Mary Jo: Too many non-Irish beers, yeah. So, I don’t know. I haven’t heard any rumors or speculation.

Paul: A couple of years ago I might have said, yeah, it seems logical they’re moving toward Windows 365. The more they talk about this stuff and the more I think about how the world is changing, I don’t think buying Windows becomes a thing anymore. I think that that notion goes away. I think that you’re going to get Windows with a device. You’re going to get Windows updated for free as an individual on that device, just like you do with Apple and iOS, and that there will be some natural expiration for that stuff. Five years for updates---whatever it is—however they want to work that. But the notion of buying some future upgrade or paying an annual fee to continue to get upgrades—I could be completely wrong as I am about everything, I guess, or as I could be about anything, but I just see them walking away from Windows as something they sell to consumers. You know, as a thing, like a retail package, as a disc or whatever, or like a download that you would apply to a computer or device. I think that that’s something that you’re just going to get, and that they’re going to try to make money in other ways. Obviously licensing to PC makers, that zero-dollar thing has really taken off, so that’s a lot of money right there, but actually hopefully it has brought down positive sums of money for more expensive computers. But, Windows as a percentage of Microsoft’s revenues has gone down over the past several years, and I think that continues to happen to them. I think they’re going to be okay with that because it’s a new business model. That’s the point.

Mary Jo: Yeah. Okay. I think that’s all ours.

Leo: All the time we have, ladies and gentlemen, because now we’re going to go to the back of the book: the moment you’ve all been dreading. But first…

[Paul and Leo laughing]

Leo: a word from our sponsors.

Paul: It’s not a horror movie. It’s the baaack of the book!

Leo: Don’t go in there! Don’t go in there! It’s the back of the book! Aaah! No. It’s the best part. It’s the good stuff that they put in the back of the magazines that I always skip to. You know—tips, tricks, tools and beer, ladies and gentlemen—beer!

But first a word from Zip Recruiter. This is actually for anybody who does hiring. This is such a wonderful thing. Zip Recruiter solves a big problem for people who are doing hiring. Whether you’re a tiny business and you just need a little help or a big business and you’ve got to hire a bunch of people for a new division, Zip Recruiter posts your job submission—your job requirements—to fifty plus job boards with one submission! Not just job boards, but also to social networks like Facebook, Twitter, EBay Classifieds. Craigslist, of course. We just love it. We’ve been using Zip Recruiter. It’s really a great way to find candidates in any city, any industry nationwide. You post once and you watch your qualified candidates roll in. It’s nice because you don’t’ get e-mails and phone calls. All the submissions go to Zip Recruiter and then they have this great interface that lets you screen the candidates, rate them and then just find the right person really fast.

It couldn’t be easier. Find out why Zip Recruiter has been used now by over a quarter-million businesses to find the right employee fast. <>. We’re going to give you a free four-day trial. It’s so fast that’s probably enough to get that person hired. <>. Great support. Great stuff. 100% satisfaction guaranteed. I want you to go to <>. Try it free RIGHT now. We thank Zip Recruiter so much for our support and for keeping Windows Weekly on the air.

Back to London, England with Mary Jo Foley, Paul Thurrott. Time for The Back of the Book. Let’s kick things off with Paul Thurrott and your tip of the week, my friend.

Paul: So I don’t have a link to this because it’s a few different articles now and it’s going to be a lot more. But last week (Mary Jo probably already forgot this) I went on a small rant about clean PCs and PC makers…

Mary Jo: [laughing]

Leo: The signature stuff.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: I didn’t forget [laughing].

Leo: By the way, I’m pleased to say that after I opened the box and set up the Dell there were only really two things on it. There was the MacAfee thingamajig. Not just the antivirus but the whole… But that uninstalled very easily. And then there was the Dell store and some Dell support stuff, and I left that on—because who cares? So even though it wasn’t a signature PC it really wasn’t…

Paul: Well that’s good.

Leo: There was no AOL offer or anything like that.

Paul: There’s all sorts of new crap work coming on PCs. There are going to be pop-up video ads and things.

Leo: Oh my God.

Paul: This whole thing is a cesspool. You know, even machines that I really like, like those HP Stream laptops and tablets come with a crazy collection of crapware…and so I’m looking at ways to do—it’s clean PCs—and obviously there are things like remove crapware and we all know there’s Utilities and that kind of stuff. But what I really want to arrive at is this ability to download the Windows version that came on your computer, apply it in a clean install, get all the drivers that you need and basically get this thing up and running…

Leo: Yeah!

Paul: from day one, with no crapware, and so I’ve started investigating this. It’s possible. It’s a little convoluted, but it works. I did it with Windows 7 UltraBook. Repeated it.

Leo: Great!

Paul: It’s kind of a repeatable thing. They’ll be doing it for Windows 8.

Leo: I just got a new HP Stream for review, so I’ll be following along.

Paul: Yeah. And actually that’s the one that I used for my crapware removal article where What Does it Look Like? And I don’t know if it was ‘decrap’ or ‘Decrapify’ or one of those…

Leo: PC decrapifier is what I use.

Paul: One of them found 29 pieces of crapware on there…

Leo: Geez, Louise!

Paul: And it’s like, ‘Guys, seriously!’ You know, this stuff takes up space. It auto-runs a lot of the time when your system boots. It consumes resources, which are precious on these low-end computers. It’s just too bad, you know, because otherwise it’s kind of a neat little computer.

Leo: Yeah. It’s amazing. But I understand why they have all that kind of crap. It’s two hundred bucks! You’ve got to make money somewhere, right?

Paul: Yeah, but you could also spend eighteen hundred bucks and still get crapware on that. There’s no excuse for that.

Leo: I agree.

Paul: Anyway, I’m writing a series of articles on that, so check out the site for that.

Leo: Good, good.

Paul: The other small mini tip was just I put up a small article about getting additional one-drive search. And now that we can all back up the photos on our phones automatically, regardless of the platforms, it’s kind of an interesting thing to look at. You know, how can I get more storage. And actually one of the simplest ways to do that is to back up the photos on your phone, because if you do that from an Android phone or from an iPhone or from a Windows phone, you actually get additional storage just for doing that. I have a short article about the various ways in which you can…

Leo: There you go! There’s your crapware. Look at it. There’s MacAfee. Trip Advisor. Snapfish. Shop for Supplies. Connect. Get DropBox

Paul: Warning, Leo! You might be unprotected.

Leo: Yeah. I know I am. Yeah.

Paul: It’s interesting.

Leo: It’s interesting it came up in Desktop each time. Oh, this is good.

Paul: Well, this is a Desktop plus keyboard now.

Leo: That’s what they do now.

Paul: Right, right right right.

Leo: Oooh, “Skulls of the----“. No, that’s a red stripe deal.

Paul: That’s just a store thing.

Leo: Yeah, here’s all the crap a-ware.

Paul: Yes, some of that stuff—those are modern apps. Actually, one of the nice thing about Aides Plus is you can actually uninstall. Very simple.

Leo: You just hold it, right?

Paul: But see, here’s the other thing. Since we’re on this topic, I will say, one of the issues with crapware removal—and this includes removing Microsoft products as well—older versions of Windows essentials, the Office Installer that’s on many computers. If you actually uninstall those things, they still actually leave an incredible amount of garbage in their registry. And some of the better de-crapifier type tools will let you step through the process of removing that stuff, too. Because one of the problems of removing crapware is [that] you don’t always do so cleanly.

And so it’s actually not correct to say that you could sit there and take the time to remove everything and you’ll be where you need to be because just the process of applying that to the computer and then not correctly removing all of it can also leave your PC in a less-than-desirable state. So it’s kind of a big topic. I’m just depressed by how much the PC makers ruin this experience. So, It’s good. More to come up.

Mary Jo: Field Guide. Field Guide to Removing Crapware.

Leo: You know, that would sell really, really well.

Paul: Well, maybe I will [laughs]. Software pick: Originally…There has actually been a lot of software that has come out in the past week. For some reason this really hit me the right way, which is there’s this thing called Microsoft Garage, not to be confused with the Office Garage, which is basically an effort within Microsoft to quickly release apps on mobile platforms—not just on Windows platforms, but also on Android and iOS, and those guys make an incredible Android lock screen app, which is awesome. And of course a lot of people with this phone headset are like, ‘What the heck, this is an awesome Android app.’

But Microsoft also makes something called Tetra Lock Screen for Windows Phone, and it’s really cool. And it basically makes your lock screen interactive for a variety of things, which are expressed as widgets like weather, your calendar agenda, your current location—which includes a map. In other words, if you’re trying to find some place and you don’t want to sign in to your phone, you just want to make sure you know where you are, not only will it show you where you are on the map, but it will also show you the location of nearby calendar events occurring within a certain time range. And so if you’re heading to a meeting that’s in a location that you’re not familiar with, you can use your phone without having to sign in and do the whole swipe thing.

This is an activity tracker. If you have sids core-based lumia, which is some of the higher-end or newer lumias, and then a stopwatch, which is funny because only Windows phone amazingly still doesn’t come with a stopwatch, which is kind of crazy.

Leo: Can you explain this to me, because I entered Tetra, and it said, “Oh yeah, Tetra Lock Screen.” And this is what it’s offering me: A moji message, secret…

Paul: Oh, so in the search box that you have… Oh, you know what? Sorry. It doesn’t work in the 1520.

Leo: Aaaaargh!

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: I know. It’s just a random weird thing. I don’t know why that is.

Leo: Well I’ll install a ….

Paul: Yeah, I don’t know why that is.

Leo: Damn you, Paul Thurrott!

Paul: It actually, and forever what it’s worth, this works better on a high-end Windows phone. I put it on a 535 and it works, but it’s a little slow on such a phone. But on like a 930 it’s much, much better. It’s a really cool lock screen.

Leo: Thanks for selling it so highly.

Paul: Sorry.

Mary Jo and Leo: [laughing]

Leo: Now we’re not going to do a code-name right away. We’re not going to do an enterprise pick—a Hadoop pick. We’re going to do a [echo-like superhero voice] RUMOR OF THE WEEK!

Mary Jo: Right. I figured it since we already did so many great questions about enterprise, I’d spare the people who don’t care at all.

Leo: [laughing]

Mary Jo: So Rumor of the Week is an answer to a question that I’ve had a lot of people ask me in the past week or two. They’ve been asking me if there’s still going to be something called the Windows 10 Consumer Preview, or if there’s going to be something called the Windows 10 Developer Preview. So I’ve been asking my contacts about this, and from what I hear, the answer to both of those is ‘no’. From now on, the monthly-or-so bills that you get through the insider program—the monthly technology previews—those are replacing developer previews and consumer previews. So the insider program bills are the ways you’re going to get all previews, whether you’re a developer or a consumer, or whatever. That is

Just form sources, not official from Microsoft, but I think it’s a very interesting thing to know if you’ve been waiting around for what’s called a Consumer Preview or a Dep Preview.

Leo: Hmm, cool. That makes sense.

Mary Jo: It does.

Leo: It’s all rolled up now.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Which makes it weird now that Microsoft would be doing it.

Leo: [laughs]

Mary Jo: Yeah, sure.

Mary Jo and Leo: [laughing]

Leo: And they say that you’re a homer, Paul!

Mary Jo: Come on, we’re in Microsoft. We’ve got to be nice. Play nice.

Leo: [echoing superhero-like voice] CODE NAME OF THE WEEK. What is this? Is this--?

Mary Jo: The code name pick of the week is—I think I’m going to pronounce this correctly—is Ryujit. R-Y-U-J-I-T. Ryujit is Microsoft’s 64-bit just-in-time compiler. And the reason I made it the code name pick of the week this week is, as one of our questioners noted, Microsoft actually open-sourced a bunch of things pertaining to dot-net this week and they put this code on GetHub. So just this week, they released the complete and up-to-date CORE CLR, Ryujit, the dot-net garbage compiler, Native Interrupt, and many other dot-net components. Those are all on GetHub now. And they’re under an open-source license. And if you’re wondering what the code name Ryujit connects to, it comes from Ryu Jin, the mythological Japanese sea deity.

Paul: Obviously, Mary Jo.

Mary Jo: Obviously!

Paul and Mary Jo: [laughing]

Mary Jo: That’s your Code Name Pick of the Week.

Leo: And beer?

Mary Jo: Beer? This was a really tough week to do a beer pick because I’ve been in England since Friday. I went to the Colchester Beer Festival this weekend and had maybe a pint or two there. And I’ve gotten to sample many fantastic real ales here in London. But I’m going to do something a little weird for my Beer Pick. I’m going to pick a British beer that tastes like an American craft beer that I found. And it’s called Mad Hatter. And one of the attendees tonight, Gary Pretty, brought a bottle of this, and we all got to try it. It’s a pale ale brewed in Liverpool. It tastes almost identical to me to an American pale ale. And it only gets a fifty-two on ratebeer[.com] but I think that’s because most of the people here who drink it may not know American craft beer styles and may just think, ‘Whoa, that is hoppy!’ But if you like American craft beer styles and you’re in England and you want to drink local, I would recommend the Mad Hatter Penny Lane Pale.

Leo: Sounds good.

Mary Jo: It was good. Very nice choice.

Leo: Mary Jo never met a beer she didn’t like. Actually that’s probably not true.

Mary Jo: Ah, I have. Yes I have. I can think of a few.

Leo: I know Paul has. Paul pretty much says, “Whoa, that’s too hoppy” no matter what.

Mary Jo: [laughing]

Leo: Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley, ladies and gentlemen. Let’s hear it for the Windows Weekly Team!

Mary Jo: And the audience!

[Audience claps and cheers]

Leo: Yeah, and the great audience in London at Microsoft’s Tech Days online. So nice to have them there. Really adds something to the show. Paul Thurrott is at his new website, Go there and read all about it! T-H-U-R-R-O-T-T. Three t’s, two r’s, a couple of u’s and o’s, an h.

Paul: [laughing] There’s an umlaut there somewhere.

Leo: Really easy to find.

Paul: Yeah, just use the number four instead of the letter h.

Leo: [laughing] I just made it a little harder to get there, didn’t I? Well, there’s three t’s, two r’s, a “u”, an “o” and an “h”. You figure out how to get there. Mary Jo Foley is at and that’s where her ZDnet blog resides, and we do this show every Wednesday at 11 AM Pacific, 2 PM Eastern Time. That would be 1900 British Standard Time. If you want to join us, we would love it if you watch live. If you don’t, well no problem, because… I mean, if you don’t want to join us, well that’s no problem. But if you can’t you should always download the offline version. We’ve got audio and video available at twittv/ww. Also of course on all the various podcast aggregators, your podcast client on your mobile device. And don’t forget there are great TWIT apps for everything, including Windows phone, ROKU 2, thanks to all our third party developers. Get one, listen. Don’t miss an episode, because it’s good stuff. Thanks, Paul. Thanks, Mary Jo. We’ll see you next time on Windows Weekly!

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