Windows Weekly 384 (Transcript)

Leo Laporte: It’s time for Windows Weekly. Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley, they’re both here. We’re going to talk about the newest Windows Phones. Paul has some reviews so he’ll give you the lowdown. Also, the gotcha for Satya, CEO Satya Nadella had something to say about raises for women. Mary Jo Foley’s take. And a whole lot more, coming up next on Windows Weekly.

Net casts you love. From people you trust. This is TWiT! Bandwidth for Windows Weekly is provided by Cache Fly, at

This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley. Episode 384, recorded October 15, 2014.

Gotcha Nadella!

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Paul Thurrott: Wow. And then also Paul and…

Leo: And Paul and Mary Jo. I was thinking of Doctor Pizza at the time. No, Paul Thurrott from the super site for Windows, And Ms. Mary Jo Foley. Now Paul wants to be taller than you, Mary Jo. He’s adjusting his camera. There, now you match. Mary Jo Foley from Don’t touch it now. It’s perfect. This is not a competition, ladies and gentlemen. It’s good to have you both. Things have calmed down in the Microsoft arena. Merely Satya Nadella talking smack about ladies. And that’s about it.

Paul: Mary Jo, just to be clear, you owe me a drink.

Leo: What did you guys have a bet?

Mary Jo Foley: Yep.

Leo: So Paul and Adam Curry, I mean John and Adam Curry had a bet that I would defend Satya Nadella. Adam Curry said I would defend Satya Nadella. And now you guys had a bet, what that I would bring it up before we even got started? Was that your bet?

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: Mary Jo had an animated discussion before the show about which story should be the top story.

Leo: And Mary Jo, what was your feeling on this?

Mary Jo: Docker.

Leo: Docker?

Mary Jo: Docker CPU comes to Windows Server. I actually did think that should be the top story.

Leo: You thought that should be the top story? I still don’t even know what it means but I’m glad you thought that was the lead.

Mary Jo: You’ll find out later. That’s a teaser.

Leo: Then Mr. Thurrott, you thought that Mr. Nadella should be the lead?

Paul: Yep.

Leo: The fact that he hates women. Well so you compromised and you buried the lead.

Paul: Yes.

Mary Jo: Those are even the words that Paul thought you might say.

Leo: Man I think you should get a gallon of beer now.

Paul: Don’t put this at the top. He’s going to mention it right out front and he’s going to say you’ve buried the lead.

Leo: I am so predictable. I’m kind of disappointed.

Paul: No, I don’t think of it as predictable. I think of it as familiar and it’s understandable.

Mary Jo: Paul thought he could be the lead too.

Leo: You know it’s funny because what I said on TWiT on Sunday was I don’t even want to cover this story because I feel like it’s a little bit of gotcha journalism. Unless you think that this is, and this is what I said.

Mary Jo: I think that’s what Mary Jo’s argument is.

Mary Jo: It is.

Leo: Unless you think this reflects kind of a deep-rooted bias, an institutional bias that Microsoft, or with the CEO of Microsoft, I don’t feel like he…

Paul: By the way, I waited over the weekend before I wrote about it. And the reason I did is because it’s too easy to knee-jerk something like this. And the woman that was interviewed, I can’t think of her name.

Leo: The Microsoft director.

Mary Jo: Maria Klawe.

Paul: Yes, she said she mentioned that it was perhaps a Nubian cultural thing and he didn’t mean it toward women, but rather toward anyone.

Leo: Karma.

Paul: The karma is kind of an Indian cultural…

Leo: It’s a Buddhist notion or a Hindu notion, I don’t know which.

Paul: Okay, whatever. Like I said to Mary Jo last week, you don’t have to be standing in front of a crowd of women in the event celebrating women. And be asked a question about what women should do with regards to asking for a raise. I think 99% out of 100 people are going to get that one right. In fact it would have been very easy for him to say something basic. That he would have been let out of the room to cheers. So I think it’s newsworthy that someone who was so careful and calculated. Someone whose very utterances can change the stock price of Microsoft. Are you okay, Mary Jo?

Leo: They’re coming through the wall for her.

Mary Jo: I don’t know if you can hear what’s going on.

Leo: I’ll tell you who hates women, those guys next door.

Mary Jo: Oh my goodness.

Leo: You know it’s not as loud to us as it is to you, Mary Jo. So don’t worry.

Paul: I think the ultimate result of this will be very positive. In other words, the reason he went there was to draw attention to the fact that there is great in quality, tech in particular, when it comes to women and income, and raises. Money earned, so forth. And he may have went about it in not exactly the best possible way. But you know what, Microsoft’s going to be pretty focused on that, isn’t it.

Leo: Accidently, he made that…

Paul: Mission accomplished.

Leo: John C. Dvorak said he might be right. Except lawsuits now from women who might have been passed over.

Paul: When he speaks, not only are his words analyzed closely by many people, but like I said, he can literally impact the stock price of Microsoft in very horrible ways if he’s not careful. It makes the whole thing look…

Leo: It was kind of a strikingly tone-deaf.

Paul: He’s so eloquent normally. I think for that reason alone it’s interesting.

Leo: I feel like it’s gotcha journalism because I can’t imagine that that’s his actual belief. Anybody, male or female shouldn’t ask for a raise if they feel they deserve one. That’s it.

Paul: But somebody asked him a question point blank and he said that. He didn’t say oh that was a stupid response, let me correct that. He literally let that one hang in the air and left. Maria Klawe fixed it.

Leo: He corrected it on Twitter.

Mary Jo: He corrected it pretty quickly.

Leo: Because his PR people said Mr. Nadella.

Mary Jo: Yea, and even Maria Klawe who was interviewing him said, wow I don’t usually disagree with you but dude, what?

Leo: And I’m a director on the board of your company and you’re saying that. We may have a problem here, Mr. Nadella.

Paul: Anyway, I think it’s newsworthy. And it certainly is an interesting and pertinent topic. His hatred of women. No I mean the notion of inequality in technology.

Leo: Okay, so let’s nail this down right now. You guys know someone you’ve interviewed him, Mary Jo. Do you think he has a bias against women in the workplace?

Mary Jo: No, I do not. In fact since he’s become CEO they added a woman to the board so that changed the ratio of the board a little bit. And they added a women to the senior leadership counsel at Microsoft. They just published their stats and were very public about the fact they don’t feel they’ve done enough. They want to get more women engineers involved. His actions show he’s very attune to this and he made a huge mistake on the stage and knew it, corrected it, put a memo out. And we’re done now.

Paul: He’s Indian.

Leo: I don’t want to bring that in.

Paul: His presence alone as CEO of Microsoft is notable.

Leo: Well that’s true. There’s diversity there. And the chairman of the board is an African American. And 29% of Microsoft employees are female.

Paul: Which by the way actually isn’t that horrible. I think the number is worse for engineers.

Leo: I’m sure it’s worse.

Mary Jo: 17%.

Paul: Without knowing from the outside you would assume that men outnumber women greatly in these types of jobs.

Leo: Enough said. I didn’t mean to change your order of stories.

Paul: And it’s because women are so bad at math.

Mary Jo: That explains it greatly.

Leo: Actually the only reason I brought it up is because I want to name this show Gotcha Nadella. And now I’ve done it so I’m going to okay this show’s…

Paul: What have you done?

Leo: I’m going to name this show Gotcha Nadella. That was somebody in the chat room. Thank you.

Paul: My problem is that, Mary Jo knows my wife. So she knows I’m married to an extremely intelligent and independent woman who, let’s face it, doesn’t need me in the slightest. And this is kind of a constant source of humor because my wife is incredible. And I understand that women are incredible. I find this to be…

Leo: Oh, careful.

Paul: I worship women.

Leo: I love the girls. I’ve got binders full of women.

Paul: I’ve got rooms of them.

Leo: It’s a known topic. I’m just trying to say.

Mary Jo: It is.

Paul: Mary Jo knows where I’m coming from.

Leo: Look, my CEO is a woman who happens to be my partner, my fiancé, soon to be my wife. And she’s about the strongest woman ever. She cracks the whip. And there’s no doubt. If I want a raise, guess who I go to. Her.

Mary Jo: You have to be the one…

Leo: She already told me, work on your karma kit cause you’re not getting s**t today. As it turns out, men in this place need to work the karma. Alright enough! I think that the really important question is does this reflect an institutional bias or a bias in the part of Satya Nadella, CEO of Microsoft. Mary Jo Foley, who knows. And I think you made an excellent point and we’ll just leave it there. And Paul, you’re absolutely right. Even if it did, it won’t from now on. So in a way this is a good thing. It served as a very important question and now we know. Girls, ask for a raise.

Paul: Not a horrible time to go work for Microsoft. It’s like, remember when Jack in the Box had that scare where people, I don’t know if they were dying or getting sick after they were eating hamburgers at this restaurant 20 years ago. When something like that happens, that’s the safest place in the world to eat after.

Mary Jo: It’s actually true.

Leo: I agree. In some ways these conversations, otherwise what happens is it’s an undercurrent. And it’s good to…

Paul: Leo, let’s talk about politics and religion next.

Leo: No, please.

Paul: Here’s what I think.

Leo: You did see the story yesterday about the Wells Fargo employee who sent an email to the CEO. He, much lower, saying here’s my case for getting a $10,000 a year raise. And then he sent it to everybody at the company, all 200,000 employees. I’m thinking that person is not employed at Wells Fargo today.

Mary Jo: Probably not.

Paul: Well you see actually karma did work in that case.

Leo: That’s an example, probably should have asked for a raise from your immediate superior alone.

Mary Jo: Yea.

Leo: And no one else.

Paul: People can’t handle reply versus reply to all in the email system. Same thing.

Leo: A little blame because there probably are some magic email addresses. Most companies have magic email addresses that go to everybody. So a little blame there. Should boys ask for raises? Our topic next.

Paul: Should boys… no Leo, boys already made too much.

Leo: Window 10, that’s a much more interesting topic for our audience. I’m sure of it. You said one million people have download that preview, the technical preview? Wow.

Mary Jo: Yea.

Leo: That’s pretty amazing.

Mary Jo: Not bad.

Paul: I was going to let Mary Jo speak. I think she’s still a little shell shocked from the first topic.

Mary Jo: No, I’m good.

Leo: One million people.

Mary Jo: Yea, one million people in ten days. Not bad. Especially when they were warning people off of it and saying unless you really know what you’re doing, this is not a consumer preview, not a developer preview. It’s an enterprise preview. They still got a million people downloading it.

Leo: People are really interested in this stuff.

Mary Jo: They are.

Paul: And I think that supports your number.

Mary Jo: They said 200,000 pieces of user feedback so far.

Leo: Yikes!

Paul: And not all of it was ridiculous like replace the NT kernel with the current kernel.

Leo: Some of you are slackers. If they have a million users and 200,000 pieces of feedback, they need to hurry up. What about the other 800,000 pieces.

Paul: Obviously most people won’t provide any feedback. I think everyone knows that. But I think a lot of the feedback is the kind of liking something on Facebook. Where people are looking at the feedback others have provided and perhaps providing additional information if it’s a feature request. Or just at least liking it, plus-one’ing it or whatever the system is. So they can get a sense of what most people want to see happen.

Leo: Right. And so it’s interesting that people who heard about the keystroke logger apparently were not scared off.

Mary Jo: Exactly. That story died down after a bit luckily.

Leo: It just shows you, I wouldn’t necessarily combine it with some conclusion about how people are just dying to get out of Windows. I don’t think it’s that either. Look at people love rumors about the next thing. Every tech blog knows you want to get hits. You talk about something coming up. People want to be in the know. They love that.

Mary Jo: You want to say you’ve tried it. People are like what do you think of Windows 10. Well, I like it, or I hated it.

Leo: Right. So how is that going to work? Are they going to update it to the point where it’s a consumer preview? I don’t know. What is the road map on this?

Mary Jo: It’s a little baked.

Paul: We have theories. I think that’s the way it’s engineered to work. But it’s a technical preview. This is one of those things. If you have to ask, then you probably aren’t qualified to be using this. If you can’t handle wiping this thing out and starting over again at the consumer preview at the final release, you shouldn’t be doing it. It really is that simple

Leo: You’ll assume that will require it, right? It always has in the past.

Mary Jo: I wonder though.

Leo: You don’t think so?

Mary Jo: I wonder because they’re doing it differently this time. And they’re going to give updates throughout the preview. And even when the preview ends and it’s final, they’re going to keep doing updates. So I wonder if there’s going to be a way where they say you know what just keep using what you’ve got. And we’re just going to keep refining it.

Paul: I think there’s a good chance that will work fine.

Leo: But don’t count on it!

Paul: Even on past betas, Microsoft has said we’re not going to support upgrading to the final. It always kind of worked. And people did it.

Leo: What’s different about how they’re doing it this time that would change things?

Paul: We haven’t seen that part yet. If you install this build, the first thing you’ll notice if you’ve been installing Windows a lot. I think I’ve installed Windows 8 approximately 1,117 times or something. The installer is literally the Windows 8.1 installer. There’s nothing new. So the way it blasts the OS out of the disc has not changed at least in this first preview. But there’s this new updating mechanism that we haven’t seen yet. Because they haven’t provided anything through it. I think everyone’s eager to see what that looks like. And there’s this notion, and Mary Jo’s been talking about this through the podcasts, that Microsoft is walking away from those big bang updates. And will be slowly slipstreaming bits into the OS over time. That’s something they will be doing during this pre-release program. We haven’t see what it looks like yet.

Mary Jo: There’s actually a page inside the build that says preview build. How fast do you want to get the preview built? And I don’t think that’s active yet but you can set it to fast, moderate, or slow. You can change the branch where you’re getting the preview bits from.

Leo: Really?

Mary Jo: So there are all these new settings that we haven’t had before. Before it’s like here’s your developer and consumer preview. There’s nothing in between those two things. And here’s your RTM. You’re done.

Paul: Those options mirror what Microsoft is doing with Office 365 and its business customers. I don’t think this is really a consumer feature per se, but in businesses you can’t just say look, this is how it’s going to be. We’re going to blasting updates to everyone’s computers. On the other hand, you can’t go to the other end of the spectrum which is letting them do everything they’ve always been doing all along. Which was never provide any updates. And so they have these different stages in between those two things. So when you sign up for Office 365 today, I don’t remember the name of it, but it’s sort of a rapid release program. Where if you want to, you can get those updates more quickly. But if you don’t, you can put them off for some amount of time. Not forever, but for some amount of time.

Mary Jo: There’s also the first release in Office 365 so you can be in the earlier testing group. So you can get stuff even earlier than everybody else.

Paul: I think the assumption on that side is because most of it’s businesses, is that most of them will not want that. They will want the ability to put it off and so forth. So you have to explicitly go in and make that happen.

Mary Jo: And there will be a way if you really don’t want the updates to be pushed to you quickly at all, you’ll be able to say I only want the security updates. I don’t want any new features right now. So they’re really very focused on letting the IT departments throttle this if they want to. Which is good because if they didn’t do this, nobody would want to test this or use it. Because a lot of companies just can’t have that pushed to them all the time.

Paul: This is probably one of probably many more that I can think of off the top of my head; related issues that impact business customers. When I look at Windows, it’s not just let’s make Windows 8 prettier and better. But business users aren’t necessarily adopting touch-type interfaces, so they’re doing that kind of stuff. Businesses don’t necessarily want their users connecting a Microsoft account to their business account so they can download junk from the store. And so they changed the app model and they changed the sign-in model so those corporate sign ins from an active directory domain can both serve as a connected account that can go to a store and you as a business can regulate the types of apps that appear on that machine. All of these things and many more-I just can’t think of this stuff off the top of my head-there’s a lot of this stuff in Windows 10. There’s sort of a stepping back from the cliff that was Windows 8 where it was very unilateral. You had to take it. This is the way we’re doing it. And there’s a lot of that stuff we’re starting to see in the technical preview particularly. They’re providing options for businesses and I think that will help. It’s not just like hey it works with a keyboard and mouse. It’s very obvious. This is other stuff too, that I think is even more important.

Leo: By the way, Paul’s shoulders are set a little bit broader today because Joe Belfiore actually referred to him in his blog post. Announcing the million downloads.

Paul: I don’t know why that’s a distinction of any kind.

Leo: Paul, that’s a pretty big link. See this article from Paul Thurrott! In his blog post.

Paul: But I know Joe. To me someone on Twitter is like oh, a corporate vice president mentioned you in a blog. I’m like you mean Joe?

Leo: So when I mock his haircut, you’re just like calling him up and…

Paul: No I mock his haircut. He knows it too.

Leo: Other tidbits? Most of these people are not running in VM which kind of surprised me. That seems like the safest way to do it.

Paul: Actually you should click on that link because that link-there’s a guy who’s very helpful to me, who-provided me a script-based list of what are in fact the most popular requests that have gone through the feedback system on the Windows 10 technical preview. Some of it is really just silly stuff. Could you make the start menu more pretty? Oh, whatever. A little bit is interesting.

Leo: Let us move or disable the new search and/or task view button.

Paul: By the way that was one of the things I wrote about. They have these two new buttons on the taskbar find but you can’t remove them or move them. Or resize them, they take up a lot of real estate. And by the way, first release I’m sure that’s something…

Leo: The second one is like what? Add a little information?

Paul: I wrote it. I was going to say as I wrote there though, you kind of want to make fun of that but again if this is the type of thing people are worried about right now… that kind of shows you that things aren’t so horrible.

Leo: 453 people said there should be a little animation or transition when opening the start menu. What, it just pops on the screen?

Paul: Does it? Yea, I guess so. And yet it’s so fast Leo.

Mary Jo: It’s fast. Why would you care?

Paul: Could there be some puff of smoke? Fireworks?

Leo: I always turn off those things because they slow you down.

Mary Jo: Agreed.

Leo: So those are the top two with more than 400 likes. 300 or more likes: make it easier to use a local account. That’s so you don’t have to use your Microsoft account.

Paul: Except that, obviously most people say, well I don’t need to use my Microsoft account. I’m not going to use apps anyway, who cares?

Leo: That’s a memory from the early days of Windows is what that is.

Paul: Well but you know what. I think what people are misunderstanding is that the ability to use what Microsoft is now calling a connected account. Because the Microsoft account is not in fact the only account that’s going to work this way in Windows 10. Is basically Microsoft bringing don’t let the capabilities of a domain account, work or business account, down to consumers. It is the ability to; there’s all this stuff built into this that’s wonderful. OneDrive syncing with the file system automatically. The ability to see your files even when they aren’t synced and to open them even when they’re not synced. When they are synced, the ability to use those things offline. All the excellent settings sync capabilities. But the app model itself, more and more people are going to be running those apps. And the way that apps work out in the world today is if you buy Adobe Photoshop-I just ran into this-Elements, latest version; install it on one PC, type in your little code. Good to go. I guess I installed the second PC and it said nope, you’ve already installed it on too many PCs. The Windows store app model allows you to install it on up to 81 PCs or some crazy number now. It’s basically unlimited PCs. But the app purchase is tied to your account. It’s automatic. You’re not typing in codes. It’s one of a thousand things that makes this such an excellent experience. It’s secure, especially if you use two-step authentication. It just provides all this stuff. It’s not about getting information from you or invading your privacy or any of these silly things that people invent. It’s about bringing those domain, central-management capabilities down to regular users in a way that makes sense. I’m really surprised by the blow back on the Microsoft account thing. I don’t get it.

Leo: Well what if you’re not online? What if you’re in a nuclear submarine?

Paul: Then please, use a local account. I guess. I don’t know what to say. It’s still there. If you want to use it, it’s still there. By the way, if you want to use that, just use Windows 7. I don’t get it.

Leo: I don’t think that’s the answer Microsoft would like to give.

Paul: Come on, their answer is use the Microsoft account and stop whining about nothing.

Leo: But if you’re not online, then you can’t.

Paul: Who is the person that’s not online but knows about Windows 10 and has to get it for their computer? I don’t understand what you’re talking about. Yes, if you are living by the Amazon River and cannot get online…

Leo: There are literally people who maybe they installed it at work but then they go up to the cabin and now they’re offline but they would like to still use it.

Paul: It doesn’t require you to be online, it works fine offline.

Leo: Oh, you can use it offline?

Paul: Of course.

Leo: Okay, never mind.

Paul: I mean you have to be online the first time you sign in just to make sure your password is correct.

Leo: Does it never time out? Like if I never got back online, will it work?

Paul: It will be fine. It cannot require you to get online.

Leo: The reason I want it is because my Outlook password is really long and complicated. And I don’t want to have to enter that each time. But of course they give you the PIN.

Paul: You want to sign into the machine and have it work that way.

Leo: Right. But you still have the PIN option, right? So what I do is I use my Microsoft account, which is 28 or 30… and then I put a PIN and I use the PIN to log in.

Paul: Same combination I use on my luggage.

Leo: My ex-wife’s birthday. Is it the same for you? Add tabs to file explorer.

Paul: Yea, okay.

Leo: I can’t access the charms say 296 people.

Paul: They based it on 29,000 people that said hooray! That’s just a misunderstanding. They’re not always available.

Leo: But you have to do WINPC.

Paul: It’s a technical preview. They already said we’re going to make this part.

Leo: Okay we’re going to stop with this one. 293 votes for make a beautiful boot screen.

Paul: I know. It’s the one thing I’ve always felt ruins Windows.

Leo: Ruins it!

Paul: It boots so quick. I wouldn’t even call it booting. It basically snaps awake. It’s actually a little shocking. I don’t get people, Leo. I’m sure I mocked that one.

Leo: If you didn’t, I did. So updates every month if you opt-in. If you flipped that switch. It’s by default switched on, right?

Mary Jo: Right now you can’t even access those more granular things.

Paul: There’s a bunch of little things that are weird in Windows 10 just because it’s a technical preview. For example in Windows 8.1, you get this crazy widescreen Bing search experience when you search for anything. So your files are in there but there’s all this Bing stuff in there. You can turn it off. It’s one of the things I do turn off in Windows 8. In Windows 10, if you search through the search button on the taskbar, when that search thing comes up, there’s a trending now column that has photos from the web. And it’s stuff like Keisha files lawsuit, Think before Tweeting, NASA’s jack-o-lantern. Like what? In this build, you can’t turn that off. It’s in the release notes. This is something you will be able to turn off. But for now you’re stuck with these Bing trending, whatever these things are. It’s awful. So it’s a technical preview. You know, it’s okay.

Mary Jo: So the next, after we start getting these updates however often they come, monthly or whatever, then around January 2015 some time, we think we’re going to get the consumer preview. So what I’m hearing what we’re going to get then, it’s a lot of stuff. You’re going to get the consumer preview of this same Windows 10 desktop that we have now. But you’re also going to get the consumer preview for the combined phone/tablet SKU that I hear inside Microsoft they call Windows Mobile. Just to keep things really confusing. Because that was the name of the phone operating system before they did Windows Phone.

Leo: Yea, 6.5.

Mary Jo: But that’s the name they use inside. They talk about threshold desktop, then they talk about threshold mobile. And we’re also going to get a consumer preview of Windows Server at the same time too. All this puzzling January time frame. And then they’ll keep updating those bits once they push that more major update. And they’ll just be updating, updating, updating until they do… I don’t even know if you’ll call it RTM at that point. But it will be the equivalent of RTM. Sometime in the spring, summer, early summer. And then we’re done. On to the next thing. Which probably won’t be Windows 11, it will probably just stay Windows 10. But with constant updating.

Paul: All these new cat names.

Mary Jo: Yea, no cat names.

Leo: Speaking of cat names, the RTM in Gold Master, apparently what the meaning of that has been devalued because Apple is now on its third Gold Master for Yosemite. They should have had a Lead Master, a Bronze Master.

Paul: Their experience with that and iOS 8 and that big problem they had with 8.1, I think you’re going to see the next versions of their OSs, they’re going to do the stuff Microsoft is doing right now. I think they’re going to be much more public about it.

Leo: You currently are. Yosemite, they’re public. And I’m using the public beta. You didn’t have to sign up for anything.

Paul: It’s like the sixth release or something, isn’t it?

Leo: Oh yea.

Paul: But I think this shows them. Because if they hadn’t done this, these are the problems that would have happened after they released it. Which is what happened with iOS. I think this will have a positive impact. Much like the Satya Nadella thing that I’m never going to stop talking about.

Leo: That’s later in the run down. Alright right after Docker, Paul, okay?

Paul: Okay, sorry.

Mary Jo: Yea, let’s get our priorities straight.

Leo: Wait your turn! I’m interested because Google has now announced their next Nexus phone. It’s a Nexus 6, and six inches. It’s the same size as the 1520.

Paul: Right, by the way you’re one of three people on earth that even know that fact. So thank you for saying that.

Leo: Well you know, I’ve been practicing with my dead 1520 just to get used to putting it in my pocket and holding it in my hand.

Paul: That’s so sad.

Leo: It’s like a stretching exercise.

Paul: It’s like a pet dies and you turn him into a pillow and put him on the couch. Just to keep him around.

Leo: It’s good.

Paul: Sometimes I just have to hug it and cry.

Leo: But I remember how much I loved that six-inch screen. I think with Apple going 5.5, and Google going now to six...

Paul: One good thing about the six-inch screen on the Nexus is they’re keeping the 5 around.

Leo: Right, because it is awfully big.

Paul: On the tablet side, they have a new 9-inch device that’s replacing the 7 and 10. And so there is some debate I think on the phone side about the right size of the screen and so forth. Some people just naturally fall in love with the really big screens. I think a lot of people don’t.

Leo: You need both. And 4.7 in my opinion, I don’t know why, it’s just the perfect size. It fits in the hand nicely.

Paul: Yep.

Leo: Having said that, I like big screens. I cannot lie. And I think it’s because those other brothers can’t deny that a big screen is a tablet almost. And it should be as big as you can reasonably put it in your pocket.

Paul: That was one of the things I tried with the iPhone 6 Plus when I was traveling with it to different places. It kind of can.

Leo: Well we’ll talk about the new Lumia’s. You’ve had some hands-on with it, Paul. We’ll talk about the next version of Microsoft’s flagship. It’s kind of funny saying that for the Lumia’s, the Microsoft flagship phone.

Paul: It’s a flagship with air quotes around it, but yet.

Leo: You saw the Finnish prime minister who said Microsoft has killed our economy. I hate them.

Paul: I started an awesome response to this and the reason it’s awesome is because it’s what I would’ve said if I would have thought of it first. Which is Microsoft didn’t kill Nokia. Nokia killed Nokia. And that happened before Steve, I’m sorry.

Leo: Kind of the truth. The truth hurts. Our show today brought to you by our good buddies at You know, Paul Thurrott knows this, when you put up a blog post, you got to have an image. Paul spends a lot of time in Photoshop making funny images. That’s because he doesn’t really have much of a life outside his blog.

Paul: It’s true.

Leo: For those of you who would love some beautiful images for your blog, whether you like to Photoshop them or not, there’s a place to go with over 40 million stock photos, vectors, videos. Music tracks, too. I’m talking about Shutter Stock. These are all royalty-free. Once you buy an image, it’s yours. You can use it in any form. You have beautiful apps for the Android and iOS. Shutter Stock app is kind of fun to browse because it’s so pretty. 43,293,774 royalty-free stock images. They add more than a quarter of a million every week. Well you might say what good is that. That’s crazy until you realize they have this fabulous search tool that lets you really find exactly what you need in seconds. Let’s say, I need a picture of an ocelot. I don’t know why I’m in the mood for ocelots but there they are. There are ocelots. But that’s not enough. You can refine your search and say only photos, only vectors, only illustrations. I want horizontal or vertical orientation. You can choose the category. You can say all ocelots except those eating people. You want to eliminate those, you can suggest a photographer. Because of course many of the best artists in the world are Shutter Stock contributors. You can say images with people. Images without people. You can even choose gender, race, or ethnicity I guess they call it. Age, number of people. And they have a color wheel so if you say I’m looking today for something that’s going to go with yellow or black or blue. You can actually choose by color. I’m telling you, this search engine is amazing. You can even add, if you wish, you can add… let me go back up here. An emotion. Let’s say an angry ocelot. I’m probably not going to find a happy ocelot. Oh, that’s a happy ocelot. I don’t know if that’s angry, oh that’s angry. Get out of the way. Here comes an angry ocelot., you can try it today. If you want to play with it as I have, sign up for the free account. You don’t need to give them a credit card. Just start the account and begin using Shutter Stock to pick images, store them in a light box. You’ll get free images every week, free video clips as well. The videos are fantastic. I just really like them. If you see something you want to buy, use the offer code WINDOWS1014 and you can receive 20% off any image subscription package. We have the 25 a day, which many blogs and big publications have 25 a day. If it’s just you, maybe you’ll want a smaller package. But you get 20%, don’t forget you have to use the offer code WINDOWS1014. It’s October 14, that’s why we use that. WINDOWS1014 at We thank them so much for their support of Windows Weekly. It’s Paul, look, it’s Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley! Look! Hosts of Windows Weekly, they’re here.

Paul: Look at us.

Leo: It got real quiet in your apartment, Mary Jo.

Mary Jo: I know. For a second.

Paul: I’m picturing them working on the side of the thing, like…

Mary Jo: I know. As soon as she starts talking, bang!

Leo: Oh that’s mean.

Paul: it’s go time, boys.

Leo: Okay, let’s talk Lumia’s. I’m kind of surprised. Microsoft hasn’t really jumped on the pure view bandwagon. The 1020, the 41-megapixel. They seem to be pushing more toward mid and low-end phones. Is that right? Am I correct?

Paul: Well that’s where they’re seeing success. Low-end of the market. Last year the best-selling Windows device in the world was a Lumia 520 which is a $99 device to start.

Leo: And a great device. To be fair, it really was a great product.

Paul: So I guess the trick for this year is how do you take that success at the low-end and continue it, but also try to push those consumers up a little bit at least. I don’t think it’s reasonable to think that most people are going to be buying very high-end Windows phones. Like they do with iPhones, it’s just not going to happen.

Leo: And you’ve got, looks at the two new ones. The 830 and 735. Tell us a little about those.

Paul: So these are both what I would call mid-level devices. They’re not really low-end devices, they’re not flagships. But they’re kind of in the middle. Microsoft divides the market a little differently. They in fact think of low-end and high-end and so low-end for them is anything that costs under $200 to acquire.

Leo: Unsubsidized.

Paul: So these phones are right in the middle is what they are. The low-end phones, 530 now and the 630, 635, in the Lumia’s. And in the high-ends, we haven’t seen a new one since April. But the 930 falls into this category. And the Icon of course. The 1520, and even the 1020 if only by a…

Leo: I think the 1520 is a real winner. I still love that phone.

Paul: When you look at the specs of that device too, it really stands up well today.

Leo: It’s still a flagship.

Paul: Yes, and I think a lot of people, Mary Jo would probably agree with this, had kind of wished the Icon 930 was basically a 5-inch version of the 1520 in the sense that it had that thin form factor. That would have been nice. I can only guess why they didn’t do that. I think part of it is the battery. But it wouldn’t have worked, so the Icon and the 930 are thick devices. And so the 830 is down-level from those devices. It’s got a real mid-level processor. It’s not a high-end; it’s still quad-core but, and I don’t want to say, but 400? Kind of in the middle of the road, 1GB of ram, 16GB of onboard storage. But what it is from a style perspective is it’s the Icon. It’s the 930. But like really thin.

Leo: It’s got that square metal frame.

Paul: Yes, it has that same design philosophy or whatever. The neat thing about it is that back panel comes off so you can replace the back with a different color green, white, black, or whatever. You can also replace it with a flint case which is awesome. It comes with built-in wireless charging so there’s no worries there. But it also means you can get at the battery. That alone makes it nice. But it also has, what sort of looks like it might be, a high-end pure view camera. And sure enough, they talk this thing up. Unlike those other high-end phones, this camera doesn’t take two shots every time. One for sharing, one for saving. It just takes the one shot. It’s still pretty slow to take photos as these cameras often are. And it really isn’t of the same quality as you would see on the 1520 and Icon 930, or 1020. But it’s very good. I have to say it’s kind of touch and go. I’ve been comparing it with the iPhone 6 Plus, and it depends on the situation which one is better. I would say overall so far, actually the iPhone has pulled ahead. But they’re pretty close. And the fact that the iPhone is a very high-end camera and this one is not. That kind of speaks to the quality, what they’re trying to do here. It does have optical image stabilization. It’s nice. But again the ability to pop that back off is the big thing. The thing I started taking exception to is that they have this other phone, like 730 and 735. If you look at this thing, it’s got that classic Lumia polycarbonate styling. It looks like a $900 and $920 whatever. It’s so light, it’s so incredibly light. And that whole color part, it just pops up. And again, so you can get at the stuff in the back. You can change the case and do whatever. But this phone has two things that the 830 lacks. Even though this one is probably less expensive. I don’t know what the prices are but the screen is actually a little nicer on this device. Evan though it’s smaller and brighter.

Leo: The 735?

Paul: Yea. And it has this awesome from framing cameras for selfies and Skype. Whereas the 830 just has your typical front camera. So what it does is kind of a widescreen camera. You catch more of the sneaking around.

Leo: Yea, HTC or somebody’s doing that.

Paul: HTC just launched a phone that actually has yes, very similar to this. In fact I think the specs on that camera are better than this one. But you know, very inexpensive. The thing that’s shocking about this is if you used the 920 in particular, or 900, or 800, or whatever, you look at this and think I know this design. I’ve seen this. I’ve owned this phone. Then you pick it up and it shoots up to the ceiling it’s so light. It’s crazy how light this is.

Leo: You say it’s filled with helium.

Mary Jo: Does it feel cheap?

Paul: No, it doesn’t. It’s awesome. It lacks a dedicated camera button which is a problem on a lot of their phones. The 830 does have that button. I think it’s great. I love this phone. This is a problem because I really like both of these. And I would say actually of all their new model phones, most of them are quite good from a quality perspective. The only exception is the 530 which is the really low-end one. It’s kind of terrible.

Leo: And they’re still selling the 1520, right?

Paul: Yep.

Leo: In fact someone said there is a 1525 coming to T-Mobile. There is a variant.

Paul: I hope so. I have heard nothing about it.

Mary Jo: Me neither. People keep asking us, where is the next flagship going to come on T-Mobile, on AT&T, on Verizon? We’re not hearing about any coming, right? There’s talk that the 930 is coming to AT&T pretty soon. So that would be a true flagship on AT&T.

Paul: Which one?

Mary Jo: The 930.

Paul: Oh, I would love for that to happen. I would buy that phone immediately.

Mary Jo: That’s a pretty active rumor.

Paul: This has that kind of perfect sized screen and it’s how is this thing mid-level. The processor, the RAM, the storage, the camera, the screen; it’s not 1080p, it’s 720p. And it looks great. It’s not a big deal. Although again, when you compare it to the 735, especially at any kind of an angle, the screen is not as bright and beautiful as the lower-end one. And I find that aspect of these phone to be strange.

Leo: Are they still using O-LED screens, are they all O-LEDs?

Paul: I can’t remember which one is which. I want to say one’s IPS and one’s… I can’t remember which ones are which.

Leo: Well there you go. That’s the lineup for the rest of this year.

Mary Jo: Let’s talk about Verizon though.

Leo: You’re a Verizon customer.

Mary Jo: I am. I use an Icon. And late last week WP Central, I think it was, was the one who found out from a support rep which again we can’t say this is 100% true, but the support rep told them or somebody who was talking to them, that the Icon is being retired. The Icon is the Lumia 929, the only Windows phone flagship on Verizon right now. And I spent all day Friday trying to find out if this was true. Because the Icon’s not even listed anymore on the Verizon Wireless page at all. I tried to get Microsoft to comment. They were trying to get Verizon to comment. And all they could get is they still have them in stock and they’re selling them. And that’s all they’re going to say about it. So that’s a little disappointing for us on Verizon.

Paul: More than a little. Let me think about this before I say it. I think the Icon is the only Nokia flagship that has launched in the United States this entire year.

Mary Jo: Unless you count that HTC M8.

Paul: Nokia, I meant Nokia.

Mary Jo: Oh, Nokia, yep.

Paul: The HTC you’re referring to is a really nice phone. The camera’s not the best. And I don’t find those two devices to be directly comparable. I would choose the Icon every time, it would be a very easy decision.

Mary Jo: I actually find it a much harder choice between those two devices. Except for the camera. The camera just throws it completely into the Icon’s favor. But I like the look and feel and the way the battery life, I like everything else about the HTC M8 more than I like the Icon except for the camera. That’s the one thing.

Paul: Yea, no it’s thinner. It’s lighter, smoother, and feels better in your hand. It has that awesome kind of case you can get. There’s a lot to love about it.

Mary Jo: So the Verizon thing is just maddening. We don’t even have Windows Phone 8.1 yet on the Icon.

Leo: What?!

Mary Jo: They finished that operating system in March or April of this year. Verizon still hasn’t pushed it. We don’t know Cyan. No word on when it’s coming. No word on Denim. Those two firmware updates for 8.1. We can’t get any information. It’s totally in Verizon’s hands. Microsoft says they don’t even know when they’re going to push it to us. And now with them retiring it, everybody’s wondering okay, so then what happens to firmware updates and software updates after that.

Leo: Verizon is so frustrating. And yet, they really have a great network.

Mary Jo: They do.

Leo: So it’s hard to give them up.

Paul: They have really treated the Windows phone like a second-class citizen.

Mary Jo: They really have.

Leo: They’ve treated everybody like a second-class. Verizon is maddening for everybody across the world.

Mary Jo: But they have such a good service.

Leo: Their connectivity is great. I love T-Mobile but you know it’s hit and miss.

Mary Jo: It is. And here in New York, AT&T can still be hit or miss compared to Verizon. So yea, I’m still on Verizon. But I got to tell you, after this I’m wavering now. And I was even saying this to Paul. Okay here are my choices, I’m either going to go Android next on Verizon or I’m going to dump Verizon and go with AT&T. And I don’t like either choice. But I’m kind of stuck now. You guys should see my inbox with people like screaming about this. They just are like does Microsoft know? Can you give me an email address to write to somebody at Microsoft?

Paul: Even before this show I got this email. I would, before I would choose AT&T if you’re switching to Android personally. But for you, I assume your cell phone is your phone, right?

Leo: But Verizon screws Android users too. Don’t worry, they’re not getting updates either. It’s Verizon.

Paul: You want to make sure AT&T works in your home.

Leo: You go to an AT&T store, they’ll let you take it home for two weeks without a restocking fee. You say, it doesn’t work in my house; what are they going to say? Oh, no you still have to use it.

Paul: Then you go to AT&T and guess what, AT&T hasn’t had a flagship release since November of last year. And so AT&T certainly has more choice in some newer choices. But not any reasonable high-end flagship kind of phones.

Leo: These guys still act like monopolies really. They just don’t care.

Mary Jo: And it’s hard because Nokia was gone from the U.S. market for so long. So they’re having to rebuild their relationship pier with the carriers and it’s just been such a frustrating, slow process. It’s crazy! You still walk into a Verizon store and they won’t sell you the product. You go in and say I want a Windows phone and they’re like no you don’t. Okay, why is that still happening?

Paul: AT&T has been great with that regard. I think I made the anecdotal observation weeks ago now that I walked into T-Mobile and literally witnessed them selling the Windows Phone to a guy. Which almost threw me out of my shoes. But AT&T in Denim at least has been fantastic. Across the board, I mean the service there is great. They’re really knowledgeable. But there’s none of that baloney. You don’t want Windows Phone. They’re interested when you bring up the Windows Phone. I’ve not had that experience so again I think it varies from store to store.

Mary Jo: It’s frustrating. I put in my post, it’s just so hard to be a Verizon customer if you’re a Windows Phone user. It’s just really, I don’t know. I don’t know what anybody can do.

Leo: I think isn’t it true across the board? Who’s better? As you say, AT&T doesn’t have a flagship.

Paul: AT&T has always been better. This year has been odd. By the way, I can’t blame AT&T per se, because Nokia and Microsoft has not released a flagship phone.

Leo: You know what, they’re all in love with the iPhone. They just can’t stop staring at the iPhone.

Paul: I think AT&T would have gotten the 930, but it was a Verizon-exclusive as the Icon. And they probably had some time element tied to it. And it’s possible that Verizon expiring the Icon is the six-month anniversary. And that indicates that maybe the 930 is happening. And that’s a little middle finger to Microsoft or whatever.

Mary Jo: That’s a theory a lot of people have. That the reason they’re retiring it is because now it’s going to come out on one or both other carriers.

Paul: So that’s nice. So then now the 930 is available on AT&T and of course the complaint will immediately turn to can we get a flagship that’s less than six months old? This thing has been out since April, I want to say, the 930. In Europe anyway.

Leo: Someone in our chat room said you think it’s bad being a customer. You ought to try working for them.

Mary Jo: Yea, I could see that.

Leo: You have my deepest sympathies.

Paul: But is it an iPhone, Leo?

Leo: What about the HTC One? You should get that. That’s a nice phone.

Paul: No it’s the camera. That’s the one we were talking about.

Mary Jo: The camera, boo! The camera is so not good.

Leo: You don’t like the camera?

Mary Jo: Terrible pictures, terrible in low-light, fuzzy.

Leo: It’s supposed to be really good in low-light. I wonder what’s going on there.

Mary Jo: We’re spoiled. We get the 20-megapixel camera on the Icon.

Paul: That’s true. I read a lot of these articles online where people will say hands down the iPhone 6 has the best camera on the market.  And I’m like okay. Obviously there are things about it that are awesome and it does a lot really well. But from a pure quality standpoint, that’s absolutely not the case. And the past two summers, I’ve been to Europe for three weeks plus and used a Lumia both times to take all my vacation photos. They’re stunning. You saw a bunch of them on Facebook, both of you. You can attest the fact that, I don’t think anyone looked at my vacation photos and thought wow you’re really using a low-end camera there, Paul. They came out nice. And I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing that, I’m not sure I would do it with an iPhone either. There are only a handful of phones I would use as cameras in that fashion.

Leo: Well we disagree a little on that, but that’s okay. That’s the way it is.

Paul: In the iPhone 6 camera app, it’s wonderful. There’s a bunch built of stuff into it. I think that the feeling on the Nokia side, aside from the speed, is the requirement of having additional apps to do all that stuff. You want a panorama, there’s a panorama app.

Leo: I think the out of the box experience on the iPhone is still better than anything else out there.

Paul: Right, I’m just talking pure quality.

Leo: Take it out, take a picture. People are going to be happiest with the iPhone.

Paul: When you’re looking at a picture on your phone screen that’s one thing. When you put it on your computer, that’s nice. When you zoom into an iPhone 6 photo, you see kind of a weird, almost water-color patter in the background of it. And when you compare that to a Lumia, it’s like well, there’s a serious quality difference there. Not that any one of these things couldn’t take wonderful photos.

Leo: These are night pictures I have from Vegas. These are with the 1520. These are remarkable pictures. They’re very good.

Paul: Yea, I think those are 1520 shots. The Lumia went through a rough patch over the past year for low-light shots. This was always supposed to be one of the things that it was really good at. And that was not my experience at all. When we were in D.C. over the summer, I was struggling with that. And used a third-party app instead because it was so bad. In the Cyan and the Denim updates, they have improved low-light dramatically through firmware updates.

Leo: These are great shots. I’m looking at your Barcelona pictures. These are great shots. The color is rich. The detail is great.

Paul: I don’t think anyone would ever, you don’t get into that conversation where it’s like well when did you take it. What is the distance like? They’re fine.

Leo: But do you have super slow mo?

Paul: Yea, but it requires another app. And that’s what I’m talking about. In other words, the things that the iPhone excels at are the fact that-well speed by the way-I don’t just mean an automated thing where it’s taking a bunch of pictures. We actually do have that on Windows Phone. You manually on the shutter, click, click, click. It will take photos that quick. As quick as you press it, it will take the pictures. That’s really impressive. And then the ability to have all that stuff in that one app and not have to go to different apps. And think what app do I need for this one thing.

Leo: These are great. Even when you zoom in, they really look good.

Paul: Those are the Facebook pictures.

Leo: Degrading it. Where do you put your pictures besides Facebook? Anywhere else?

Paul: Not for public contention.

Leo: Put some samples up on Google Plus or somewhere where they don’t recompress.

Paul: I tried to do this on Flickr but when you look at them on Flickr, I’m pretty sure Flickr is doing something to them, too. I’ve got to figure out a way to do that. I don’t have any axe grinder, I’m not trying to sell Nokia products. I will happily put up all the photos taken with the iPhone. And with the 830, you know, whatever. This is just my own experience. The iPhone 6 camera is fantastic.

Leo: I just got an update to my Android One Plus One and they now shoot.

Paul: I thought you pulled up the 1520 there for a second.

Leo: It looks like it. They’re all slabs of glass. But this now does camera raw like the Lumia’s. To get the raw sensor data. Now you really can, if there is a weird, people go off and complain about purple casts on the iPhone. You can fix it if you see weird stuff. Alright, we’ve been waiting. We’ve put it off too long. Docker.

Paul: Finally.

Mary Jo: I was like when are we going to get to the Docker story?

Leo: Not quite yet. Because we’re going to take a break and when we come back… it’s called a tease, Mary Jo! We save the best for right after the IT Pro TV ad.

Mary Jo: Alright.

Leo: Docker, coming up in a second on Windows Weekly! Our show today brought to you by Tim and Don. I feel that way with some of our advertisers, especially with IT Pro TV. It’s not some company. It’s Tim and Don. Maybe it’s because they keep coming here. They come out whenever they can. They were clearly influenced by TWiT. In fact, they freely admit that. Tim and Don were IT instructors in the business teaching people how to get their certs for MCSC and all of that. And they saw what we were doing at TWiT. They actually saw a talk I gave at NAB. And they said, hey what if we did the same kind of thing. Only focused on IT training. And I see they’re on the air right now; they have a live stream; they do about 30 hours of new content every week.  I'm going to log in, that way I can show you what's going on.  They have courseware all of the subjects that you want.  I'm logging in right now, that's what that sound is.  They have some advantages over just taking a technical course.  For one thing it's at your convenience, right?  You can watch on your computer but also on your mobile device.  If you buy the year subscription which is really the best deal you can even download this stuff and watch anytime that you want.  Even their set looks like TechTV's old set, I love it.  ITProTV, they have the amazing, I really like this, web interface to their virtual machine sandbox lab.  I guess we are waiting for them to show up.  Any computer with an HTML 5 browser, including Chromebook, you can set up Windows Server, set up clients, break it, all of that to practice.  You can also take the measure up practice exams, there you go, included with your subscription.  It's kind of like TWiT, I love it, they kind of wander in.  I guess they've got a noon show coming up.  Those are worth $79, those practice exams.  Corporate accounts are available for departments and companies.  They have corporate pricing on their website.  Look, I just love it.  ITProTV, in fact if you go to the, let me close out my feed and go to the courses, they've got courses.  See the chat room going on while they are doing the show and all of that?  It's very much like what we do.  They've got Apple stuff now, CompTIA, of course the A+, and Security +, and Linux + certs, they've got all of the Microsoft certs, MCSA, MCSE, and MTZ.  I love this one, they have an Ethical Hackers cert from the EC council, Certified Ethical Hacker.  Actually  that is coming, they are going to do that early next year.  Cisco, (ISC)², Microsoft Office, all of the Microsoft Office including OneNote, Linc, Outlook, PowerPoint, Access, and Project Management from PMI.  There is 30 hours of new content each and every week.  But of course when you subscribe you have access to the entire course library; normally $57 a month, $570 a year.  It's still a great deal compared to taking a class or classes at a technical college and in many cases a lot less than just buying the books to study yourself.  It's more fun, you can even watch on your Roku.  If you sign up now with the offer code WW30, w-w-3-0, you will receive 30% off of your subscription for the life of your account.  That's less than $40 per month or $399 for the entire year. and use the offer code WW30 to get 30% off.  We love them, you will too, ITProTV.  It puts the fun back into learning IT.

Mary Jo Foley, Paul Thurrott, Leo Leporte, talking Windows.  Here we go, the moment you have all been waiting for; it's Docker time.  What is Docker?

Mary Jo:  Okay, now I can tell you this may seem like a story that is really boring and not a big deal, but when I heard that Microsoft is going this way, it's huge, this is a huge deal.  So Docker is, a lot of times you see people describe it like a shipping container, like a physical shipping container.  It is a container of technology, a new container of technology that lets people develop, distribute, and deploy applications more easily.  It is open source.  It is being made by a company named Docker, Inc.  That's the company behind this Docker, this new container that we are talking about.  It's really a popular technology in Linux.  This week Microsoft did an alliance with Docker, Inc where they are going to create a version of their own container technology that is going to be part of the next Windows Server.  Docker and Microsoft together are going to put the Docker engine on top of that.  So this is going to let the people in the .net and the Windows world start using Docker containers to build, deploy, and host their applications.  You can either choose to put your Docker containers on top of Windows Server on premises or you are also going to be able to put them in Windows Server on Azure so that you can run them in the Cloud.  I know it sounds kind of obscure, but this is like a really, really new hot trend in Cloud computing especially.  Everybody is jumping on the Docker bandwagon lately.  IBM is in there, Microsoft, Google, and all of the Linux vendors like ConnocheatOS and Red Hat, everybody is really all excited about Docker and containers.  It's been a big criticism of Microsoft that they haven't had a play here and that they haven't been keeping up with this particular trend, but now that they are here everybody is saying, wow, here it comes.  I've seen a number of people covering this today saying, yeah, it's so far away, though.  It's not far away because we know Windows Server Next, which is where this is going to start showing up, is coming out by mid next year.  So it's very close relatively speaking that Microsoft is going to be playing more actively in the space with Windows Server.  So that's why I was really excited.

Leo:  No, in fact there are a lot of people who are excited about this, too.  Linux Journal says that the containers are the future of Cloud, not virtual machines.  Containers are the way that we are going to move forward.  Ed in the chat room said that it's about time we got Docker on Windows.  He's very excited about it.  This feels like a Satya Nadella thing, kind of opening up a little bit to the idea that there are other choices including open source choices out there.  

Mary Jo:  Yep, and Scott Guthrie too, how he runs Cloud and Enterprise, he has been a big open source backer at Microsoft.  I'm sure that he had a big hand in making sure that this happened.  If you had told people that the Microsoft world, just even like a year or two ago, hey Docker is going to come to Windows Server; people would have just laughed.  They would have.  They would have been like right, ha, sure.  Even being able to run Docker on Linux on Azure people would have been like you are crazy, that's never going to happen.  But here it is everybody; Docker.

Leo:  Yeah.  It's more lightweight, it starts up faster, and it is just an easier way to do things.  It's still essentially virtualization, I think.

Mary Jo:  It's like an alternative to virtualization, I think.  That's kind of the way that it's played.  So it's interesting.

Leo:  Does it use Hypervisor or not?

Mary Jo:  Well, you know, it does not use Hypervisor, but you are treading on an interesting question.  So how do they do it, right?  When you see pictures of what the architectural diagram looks like you see server, host operating system, then the Docker engine.  There is no Hypervisor layer when they talk about that.  There has to be still this container technology, though, and so Microsoft says they are building some kind of new container technology that is like the base layer under Docker into the next Windows Server, but they won't tell us what that is.

Leo:  On Linux it would be running a daemon, there would be a daemon running.

Mary Jo:  They are both daemons I guess, like there is going to be a Windows Server daemon and a Linux daemon.  There's like this layer underneath that we don't know what it is.  In the Linux world it's LCS is what the container technology is called, Linux Container Support, but Windows is what we don't know.  There is going to be some sort of Windows container support, but Microsoft is not sharing yet what that actually is in terms of the functionality.

Paul:  Isn't there a show coming up at which they might reveal this information?  

Mary Jo:  You know, TechED Barcelona is just around the corner.  Perhaps we will hear more.  What do you think?

Paul:  That's what I'm thinking.

Leo:  It's kind of weird, you are sharing the kernel in a way.

Mary Jo:  You are, yep.

Leo:  Now when you spin up an instance on EC2 or on Azure you've got to boot up, you are running an operating system on a virtual machine.  This is a little much more lightweight and you are going to start seeing these.

Paul:  This is the ActiveX control, too.  

Leo:  Don't say that.  

Mary Jo:  No, no, no.

Paul:  Nothing goes wrong when you make something lightweight.  

Mary Jo:  It's pretty big.

Leo:  I’ve got to say, I feel like, okay, Scott Guthrie, but I feel like Nadella's deep understanding of Cloud, and of openness, and of business is helping a lot in making this kind of thing happen.

Paul:  I think that this is Microsoft's management strategy, you know, this becomes a unit of management, of things that they manage with System Center and possibly into partnerships?

Leo:  Speaking of partnerships, StreamForce is going on this weekend in San Francisco, the big Salesforce conference with Microsoft.

Paul:  Why are we not there for some stupid Microsoft show?

Mary Jo:  Again this week.

Leo:  Again this week.

Mary Jo:  Well next week they are going to be there again.

Leo:  Are you coming back?

Mary Jo:  No, we are not coming back.  Next week is when Satya Nadella is going to be in San Francisco again doing some kind of announcement about Azure.  We don't know exactly what it is.

Paul:  Leo, I learned something by going to San Francisco that week.

Leo:  What's that?

Paul:  It's how to say no.  I've said no twice since then.

Mary Jo:  Right, we don't need to go to everything.

Paul:  Yep, I don't have to go to everything.

Mary Jo:  And they are going to webcast that thing next week, so we really don't need to go.  This week it was Salesforce.  Microsoft and Salesforce announced their initial partnership back in May and they said, oh, we are going to start collaborating more and we are going to do a lot of integration.  It was kind of vague, kind of fluffy.  This week they actually gave us some more real data points about what they are doing.  They are actually developing together a Salesforce1 app for Windows.  So there is going to be an app that works on Windows Phone 8.1 and Windows 8.1 especially optimized for smaller tablets, like 8 inches and under, that is going to be the Salesforce CR1 app for Windows.  So that's kind of a big deal because as we said recently on the show there are not enough metro style apps that are real apps in business.  So here is an example of one that is coming.  It's going to be out next year.  They talked about integration that they are doing with Office around Salesforce files, and SharePoint, and OneDrive for Business.  They are even building a new version of the Salesforce app for Outlook and doing some more things around Para BI and Salesforce integration.  So they are really doing things.  The partnership wasn't just all words.  All of the things that they are going to talk about this week are going to be deliverables in early to mid-2015 for the most part.  It actually is working.  Salesforce and Microsoft, even though they do compete very strongly on the CRM front, are going to come up with some apps together that I think a lot of business customers are going to be pretty excited about.

Leo:  It really is a new Microsoft.

Mary Jo:  It really is, right?

Leo:  I can hardly believe it.

Mary Jo:  Mark Benihoff working with Microsoft instead of criticizing them?  Wow, huh, how about that?

Leo:  Next Scott McNealy will say, hey, I've got an apartment in Redman and I'm moving in.  God, that's amazing.

Mary Jo:  I know, it's pretty different.  

Leo:  Let's see here.  No, we are going to skip over this thing about Satya Nadella hating women and move right to...

Mary Jo:  We already did that one.

Leo:  We did that one.  We are going to move to...

Paul:  Actually, I just have one more thing about politics and religion.

Mary Jo:  Could somebody block him please?

Leo:  I have these cartoons of the prophet here, I thought maybe you would like to see them.

Paul:  I was thinking with Mary Jo before this show that we should have had Alex make a lower third for her that said conscientious objector.

Leo:  Just say CO.

Mary Jo:  I was going to make my own little flag and waive it during this segment, but I don't need to.

Leo:  Mary Jo, have you ever asked for a raise?

Mary Jo:  Yes I have in fact.  I guess that's why I wasn't so appalled by this.  I've asked for raises.  When people ask me to speak for free I say, you know what, I am self-employed, and I don't speak for free.  I'm sure you can find some money for me, and they do.

Leo:  I do the same thing.

Paul:  I've always relied on karma, and I've always been screwed, so...

Leo:  The karma guy, that's my job.

Paul:  Karma doesn't work.  That's been also one of my life lessons.

Mary Jo:  Karma is Boston is Karmar.

Paul:  It does not work the way you think that it works.

Leo:  Is it Karmar Chameleon?  Qik, q-i-k Qik, was an independent video technology; I used to use it on my smartphone.  Skype bought them, is that what happened?  What's going on here?

Mary Jo:  Yeah.  

Leo:  A while ago I think.

Mary Jo:  Skype bought them before Microsoft bought Skype.  Just a few months before that happened.  In 2011 they bought the video messaging company Qik then they never really did anything with it.  Microsoft bought Skype, it kind of just hung around, and then this week they launched an app called Skype Qik.  They claim it doesn't use any of the technology from the original Qik.

Leo:  Good, because it was terrible.

Mary Jo:  That's good that they are not using it then.  What it lets you do is have these little short vignettes that you record, like 42 seconds or less, and you can send them back and forth between your Skype contacts using their phone number.  It's meant to be kind of a fun interim app, not quite a full Skype with somebody, but a little kind of message.

Leo:  I think this is great, it's video sharing.

Mary Jo:  Yeah, video sharing meant to be fun, not really meant to be a businessy thing at this point.

Leo:  No, they are showing all kids basically.

Mary Jo:  Yeah, you can record these really short ones like 5 second Qik Flix they call them so if somebody sends you a message like do you want to go to dinner tonight you can send a little downer face like, no.

Leo:  That's fun.

Mary Jo:  Yeah, it's cute.

Paul:  This speaks to my core demographic right here.

Mary Jo:  It does, both of our core demographics.

Paul:  Mary Jo and I just Qik each other all of the time right now, like send each other like little videos like I'm shopping for a shirt, which one do you like better?

Leo:  You are not likely to use Qik.

Paul:  No.

Mary Jo:  And the messages also do the self-destruct after two week very similar to other ones that we have seen.

Leo:  Oh, it's another one of them.

Paul:  So if it's embarrassing it's only temporarily embarrassing.

Leo: Temporarily, Qik Messenger, wait a minute, this is Skype Qik.

Mary Jo:  Like if I sent a message to Paul and a group of other people, and I was like oh, I wish I didn't send that then I can go in and delete it off of everybody's phone myself.

Paul:  So you just mentioned that this Qik thing had been purchased.  When you said that I thought, oh, that sounds familiar.  

Mary Jo:  You remembered that, right?

Paul:  I am really fascinated that this thing dates back to 2007.

Leo:  It's ancient, yeah.

Paul:  Yeah, that's crazy.

Leo:  I used to use it.  There were a whole bunch of ways to do video.  I streamed stuff with Qik, too.  You were able to stream it live.

Paul:  Really?

Leo:  There was social cam from JustinTV, there were a whole series of these the idea being that you can use your phone.  We are interested in these because of the live video streaming, so I played with all of these.  Qik was pretty good, it was okay.  Robert Scoble used it a lot that should tell you something.  

Mary Jo:  That tells me a lot.

Paul:  Yes it does.

Mary Jo:  Not things that I want to know.

Paul:  Yes it does.

Mary Jo:  Nah, I'm kidding.  He used it in the shower.

Leo:  It's hard to find.  Somebody is saying that I can't find it in the Windows Phone Store.  I had the same problem on Android because when Qik went out of business a lot of people usurped the name.

Paul:  Oh no Leo, you misunderstand, they have a slightly different problem on Windows Phone which is when you search for exactly what something is you can't find it.  It's a hilarious little Windows Phone feature.  I believe that if you type in Skype Qik that will work.

Mary Jo:  Skype Qik, yeah.

Paul:  If you just type in Qik then have a nice one.

Leo:  I just installed it on Android.

Mary Jo:  IPhone also surprisingly.

Leo:  I wonder if it will remember my old Qik account.

Paul:  That would be funny.

Mary Jo:  Hopefully not.

Leo:  Yeah, I don't really want to see it again.

Mary Jo:  Because it's a very different app them claim.  They claim it's all different code.  It uses Skype backbone now.

Leo:  Right, I mean this was 3G maybe 2G network.  The video quality with streaming was terrible.

Mary Jo:  Yeah.

Leo:  Well they've already got 100 downloads on Android.  I've never seen that sticker.

Paul:  All of them Microsoft employees testing it.

Leo:  I've never seen that sticker, 100 downloads.  I've seen 100 million.  This is just 100, the 100.  

Paul:  Well it's early days Leo.

Leo:  Well it just came out.

Paul:  It will get there.

Leo:  Not only is Qik brand new, it's the very first app from Skype.

Mary Jo:  Right.  That's a good point to bring up.  Skype has all been focused about Skype, and now this is their first sister companion app.

Leo:  Oh look, it's rocking out.

Paul:  When you search for Qik it doesn't even come up in the results.

Leo:  Right, search for Skype Qik.   That's why they call it Skype Qik.

Paul:  People.

Leo:  People, come on people.

Paul:  Actually Skype Qik just, this is amazing.

Leo:  It's so 80's.  How do I stop this?  Oh, it's making the Skype sound.

Paul:  You've got to cut loose.

Mary Jo:  There you go, Paul's favorite sound.  He loves that sound.

Paul:  The never-ending Skype chirp.  I know this is available for Windows Phone but I can't find it on Windows Phone.

Leo:  Oh boy, let's take a break.  No, let's keep going.  It just verified itself.  It's kind of cool, I will play with it.  Any Surface news Paul?

Paul:  Just a little.  Patch Tuesday has historically been the firmware update day for Surface, and each month many times it's been all of the Surface devices, sometimes only some of them.  This week Patch Tuesday came and the only device that got firmware updates was Surface 2 which is the year old RT device.  If you use the Surface Pro 3 you know that there was a pen firmware update a few weeks ago which allowed a pen configuration app, which is really just very basic right now, but I think it's going to improve.  The interesting part about this set of updates I think is that Microsoft revealed on their update page for Surface Pro 3 that they were going to try to fix the Wi-Fi problem that has been dogging Surface Pro 3 users since there has been a Surface Pro 3.  I don't know Mary Jo if you pay attention to this or have thought about this, but I think this is like their 4th attempt at fixing this problem.  I'm not clear that they are ever going to fix it.

Mary Jo:  Which is worse, and because it is not effecting every Surface Pro 3 user, but the ones that it is effecting are having really bad Wi-Fi connectivity issues, like saying that they can be down for minutes where they can't connect, or every time they come out of hibernation or sleep they can't connect, and it's not just some little Wi-Fi speeds aren't good.  It's not that, they just cannot connect at all.

Paul:  Yeah, it's like it literally disappears.  I posted this on Twitter the other day, but you can buy a tiny USB dongle Wi-Fi adapter for under $10 which is really neat except man, the Surface Pro 3 only has one USB port on it, and that is really irritating.  But yeah, you have to wonder if this is a more endemic hardware issue maybe akin to the stuff that you are seeing on Apple devices where the antenna is just not strong enough.

Leo:  Yeah, Apple has never had good Wi-Fi.

Paul:  I don't know.   I can't wait until they fix it.  I guess we will see how it goes.

Mary Jo:  Are you having trouble with yours or not; because not everybody does.

Paul:  Leo did you send me a Qik?

Leo:  Yeah, and it should have had a link to the Qik in the Windows Phone Store.  You got it.  He's getting the Qik.  It's video text messaging is what it is basically.

Paul:  No Leo, it's Skype Qik.

Leo:  So we are waiting for a fix for the Surface 3 Wi-Fi issues.

Mary Jo:  Yeah, it's coming they say.

Paul:  Still.

Mary Jo:  In a number of weeks.  You know what?  I will give them this, at least they gave people a heads up this time because it was good that Patch Tuesday didn't come and go, and there was nothing, and they didn't say anything.  At least they told people that.

Paul:  Yep.  Tap the header to record a new video.  I'm sorry, I'm so excited.

Leo:  You can respond to me.  Respond to me.

Paul:  I can't see here how you sent it.

Leo:  Maybe I didn't send it to the right number.   I have two numbers for you, one is work and one is mobile.

Paul:  Okay.

Leo:  Wait a minute, Qik Flix, record a bunch of 5 second videos and drop them into any chat, anytime, or you can make your own animated GIFs.  I'm going to make a Qik Flix.

Mary Jo:  Yeah.

Leo:  Let's see, this is going to be my Qik Flix.  So that's a smile.  Wait a minute, stop.  See, it's confusing because you tap it.  Now I have a smiley Qik.  

Paul:  Mary Jo did you install this?

Mary Jo:  I don't have Windows Phone 8.1 because I'm on Verizon, so...

Paul:  Sorry.

Leo:  So Paul, should I send it to 415 or 715?  Which one is the one that I should send it to?

Paul:  Neither one of those is right.

Leo:  That's the last 3 digits, no?  

Paul:  Oh, wait, say those again.

Leo:  415 or 715.  I sent it to 715, the phone ending in 715.

Paul:  970 is the number.  You don't have that one?

Leo:  I don't have that number at all.

Paul:  415 is the home number.  

Leo:  715?

Paul:  That must be my old number.

Leo:  7715 that must be really old.  Alright, so basically I can't send you one.  Are you sad, probably not.

Paul:  A little bit.  A little bit.

Leo:  Phone call?  Are you calling me right now?

Paul:  Sorry, I've got to take this, this is important.  Hey Leo, let's talk about Satya Nadella some more.

Leo:   That's my ringtone. Oh man, go away.

Mary Jo:  Paul Thurrott, this is my message for you.

Leo:   What is she saying, what is she saying?  You keep that around?

Paul:  Na, na, na, na, na.

Mary Jo:  I can't hear you.

Leo:  Talk to the hand.  Surface, we did it.  Mirracast versus Mirracast is our final bullet point.  What does that mean?

Paul:  Yeah, I don't want to spend too much time on this, but Microsoft in the next 30 days or so is going to release 2 Mirracast adapters.  One of them is aimed at phones and it has this little NFC connection plate, the idea being that you put the device over by the TV, or HD screen, or whatever, and you put the little connection plate anywhere and if you have a compatible device you just touch it to the pad and you can mirror your screen.  But they also have a dongle which goes behind the TV into the HDMI port.  It looks like a Chromecast, right?  That's aimed more at computers.  It works with phones too, actually, both of these devices will work with anything that works with Mirracast.  I'm testing both, it's super hard to test because seriously to convince anyone in my family that we need to watch TV but only over this connection and when you put Netflix over a laptop you get that thousand yard stare from the kids.  I'm trying to test it because to date Mirracast has not been a great solution for me.  But the tip here is that you may not need to get a Mirracast device, you may already have one because Roku just added this capability to all of its devices.  So if you have a Roku 3 or a Roku streaming stick you install the latest update and you have Mirracast right there.  There's a way that you can cast from an Android device, a modern Windows PC like Windows 8 plus, or a Windows Phone device.  Not all of them, but the newer devices.

Leo:  Good.

Paul:  It's a wireless wire.

Leo:  Let's take a break.

Paul:  Your tune starts to flatten.

Leo:  Dominis patris evitus sancti.  Let us gather together to talk about Citrix ShareFile and then the back of the book, the good stuff, our tips, our tricks, and beer.  That's a reward.  If you are in business and you are sharing files via email attachment shame on you.  I don't blame you really, sometimes it seems like the only way that you can get the contract, the PDF, the spreadsheet to your clients and your customers.  I hasten to point out that there are risks involved.  For instance, any email is basically a postcard that can be read by any server along the way.  Furthermore it's really easy with the modern file sizes to overwhelm someone's inbox and get a bounce back; that's no good.  Finally, email attachments are how viruses spread, and we don't want you to do that either.  So here's what you do, you go to Citrix ShareFile and you try it free for 30 days if you are the person in the company that decides this stuff.  If not then tell your IT director, or your boss, or your co-workers.  This is what I use to send files to the radio stations, in fact I will be doing it right after the show today.  Sharing audio ads and bumpers and stuff, I have to do that every week.  I've tried all of the other file sharing systems and this is the easiest and the best.  It does not confuse them.  You don't always know if the person at the other end is technically savvy.  With ShareFile it is fine, they don't have to be.  You could send files of almost any size with absolute security.  You can control who can open it, when they can open it, and how long it's good for.  It eliminates security breaches and clogged inboxes.  No more spearfishing attacks.  You don't lose control plus all of your ShareFile files are visible all of the time on your smartphone, or your tablet, or your computer.  You just log on to your ShareFile account your use their free apps and there it is.  It really is nice.  I am a big fan.  I have a couple of ShareFile folders that I automatically sync.  You can use any folder on your computer by the way, it's really nice by the way.  It will just sync in the background.  But you can also upload it, there are a variety of ways.  It's so flexible.  If you look at the features and tools of ShareFile you will see that it is designed for business to make it easy to use with a desktop widget, the Outlook Plugin, and the mobile tools.  It even supports Right Signature eSignatures so it is a great way to get documents signed.  Here is the deal, visit and click the top of the homepage where it says "Podcast Listeners".  Click that, that's the way to try this free trial, and make sure that you use the offer code WINDOWS so that Paul and Mary Jo get credit.  You will get a 30 day free trial.  Tell them what industry you are in and they will customize it for that industry.  Yes, it's HIPAA compliant, compliant with FCC regulations, and other industries too., click the "Podcast Listeners" link, the microphone at the top of the page, and use our offer code WINDOWS.  Citrix ShareFile, built by business for business.  Mary Jo Foley and Paul Thurrott are giving us the business.  Let's start with you Paul, your tip of the week.

Paul:  So actually just have picks.

Leo:  All picks all the time.  That's alright.

Paul:  Roku Mirracast receiver functionality and a bunch of software picks that are kind of all over the map.  First, right before the weekend Microsoft released a very early pre-release version of what they are calling the Analog Keyboard for Android.

Leo:  It's so weird.

Paul:  My initial reaction to this was somewhat mocking, but actually as I look at this I realize that this isn't a horrible idea.  In fact, if you look at the video that Microsoft made about the keyboard and the way that you enter characters and so forth I actually think it could make sense.  This might actually make sense as a keyboard for Android Wear, you know for a watch.  It's super early release, it's really hard to install, and it requires a lot of scripting and craziness, so I don't think that anyone normal is going to do it.  This is the start of a really good idea within the context of what it is with a watch and entering keys for some kind of reason.

Leo:  You know, I use Android Wear.  I love my Android Wear watch.  I will try it.

Paul:  For example, if you were to do like, you can obviously interact with it via voice.  I think that would be the normal way.  If you wanted to...

Leo:  That's the normal way to do it, right.

Paul:  Yeah, so this provides a secondary input type.

Leo:  It's an interesting idea.

Paul:  It would be advisable in some circumstances.  It looks pretty good.

Leo:  It's clever.

Paul:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leo:  And it's created by a guy named Wolf Kienzle, so it's got that going for it.

Paul:  Well, there is this thing going on with Microsoft Research these days, and I'm sure Mary Jo has noticed it, these guys used to be the silent partners in the back that never really had much to say and lately they have been releasing stuff.  I think that is kind of cool.  I like the release early even when it's not ready type thing that is happening at Microsoft right now.  I think that it is perfectly okay for them to do this kind of thing.  I like to see Microsoft Research getting out there in the world. 

Leo:  Yeah, and across platform.  This is more of that amazing support for other people's stuff.   I love that.

Paul:  So the second pick came about because on Sunday, you may recall or you may know, that the new season of the Walking Dead started.  The Walking Dead in my family is like the big family event of the week, like we watch it together with a bowl of popcorn.  It is just a family thing, I don't know, I can't explain it, I can just say that not everyone likes the zombies and everything but now that Breaking Bad is off of TV now it's arguably the best show on TV right now.  So, anyway, having gotten into the Walking Dead a few years back I started reading the original graphic novels that the series is based on.  The storylines veer wildly in many cases, but you can see the influences, and some of the actual storylines, and so forth.  These graphic novels have been collected into collections I think of 4 graphic novels each.  There were 20+ of them at last count, and I had been buying them on Kindle.  So over the previous year I had bought this entire series and I read the whole thing.  So after the show was over I thought, man, it's been several months since I have read one of these.  Surely one or more new ones have come out, maybe I can buy those and catch up on the story.  I started searching for it on the Amazon Kindle Store and they are not to be found.  The books are still in my collection, but they are not in the store.  You can buy the physical books, like the paper book.  I haven't found out why, although everyone knows that Samsung is having these issues with publishers now.  I don't know if that is related or whatever, but my understanding is that these books are in fact gone from all electronic stores, you can't get them on Kobo, you can't get them on Nook, or whatever, but you can get them on comiXology, right, with an X.  This is a company that I believe was recently just bought by Amazon.

Leo:  Oh, that's right.

Paul:  Yeah, I don't usually buy a bunch of comic book apps on my tablet or whatever, but you can buy the set...

Leo:  This is a good one, or was.  Everyone is worried about what Amazon will do to it.

Paul:  Yes, so as of now I will have to say, like having read the graphic novels before on the Kindle where there is kind of a nice little navigation way that you can go from pane to pane and so forth, the presentation of this app is superior.  It is much better than the Kindle version.

Leo:  Oh yeah, it zooms in on the panes.  It is really good.

Paul:  Yeah, and these books, I don't know if it is true today, but when I bought this latest book, it's only been one actually; it's significantly less expensive than they were on the Kindle.  

Leo:  Yeah.

Paul:  And the experience is wonderful.  So it's a Windows Store App, and I think that there are apps on the iPad too, I didn't really look, but there is a Windows version.  It's a great app, so you should definitely check this one out, it's really good.

Leo:  Ihnatko has been singing its praises for some time now.

Paul:  I never really paid attention to this kind of thing before, but yeah, it's a good one.

Leo:  They are smart because what they are doing is getting people to try it with the Walking Dead, which is hugely popular, and then people will go, oh, this is cool.

Paul:  Yeah, I think they have Marvel Comics and other things.

Leo:  They have everything, yeah, it's great.

Paul:  I don't read like the superhero type things, but I'm sure that's all there.

Leo:  ComiXology now on Windows Phone.

Paul:  ComiXology, yeah.

Leo:  And one more.

Paul:  One more, and this one is from Leon Zem, a buddy of ours from the Netherlands, and this is a universal app so it works with both Windows and Windows Phone.  More importantly, if you buy it on one platform you get it on the other, which is good.  Monty Python's The Ministry of Silly Walks, which is...

Leo:  Are there many apps like this that are universal?

Paul:  This is increasingly common.  They have obviously made it much easier in the latest version of the platform, and then coming in Windows 10 it's going to be even better.  This is a fun little game, but I think the coolest part about it is that John Cleese is involved.  It's like a side scroller, it's not free, I think it is $1.29.

Leo:  $1.29, it looks great.  I want this, this looks great.

Paul:  It's fun, you know the Monty Python guys are kind of doing their farewell tour and I'm sure this is an attempt to cash in on their fleeting fame, but I don't care.  It's wonderful, it's just great.  This is great.

Leo:  It looks really fun and you get to explore 3D London.  Awesome.  Mary Jo Foley, I think that it is your turn for a little Enterprise shmenterprise.  Or whatever they call it.

Mary Jo:  Whatever they call it.

Leo:  Whatever they call it, your pick of the week.

Mary Jo:  My pick of the week, you know my fondness for acronyms, my pick of the week is MVMC, Microsoft Virtual Machine Converter, which is a standalone tool for IT pros or solution providers who want to be able to convert virtual machines and virtual disks from VMware hosts, or Vhosts, and also to Windows Azure.  So it's one of those tools, you know, you are somebody who is moving or wants to move your customers off of VMware to Azure Hyper-V this is a handy little tool for you.  The version 3.0 of MVMC came out this week and it adds one other interesting feature.  It lets you convert a physical computer running Windows 2008 or above or Windows Vista or above on the client side to a virtual machine running on Hyper-V.  So it's a really handy migration tool and conversion tool.  It's free, it's downloadable from the Microsoft Download Site this week. I've had people ask me before for the link so we are going to have it in the show notes, it's too hard to give that link over the air.  

Leo:  You could Google, I'm sorry, Bing it.

Mary Jo:  You could Bing it.  You could Bing it.

Leo:  It's version 3 of the Microsoft Virtual Machine Converter.  I think you can find it with that.

Mary Jo:  Yes, I think you could find it that way too.  So that's my pick for this week.

Leo:  URLs are passé, just Bing it.

Mary Jo:  How did I miss that opportunity to say Bing it?

Leo:  Bing it!

Mary Jo:  Bing it.

Leo:  They had fun last night on Jimmy Fallon with Bing.

Mary Jo:  Oh really?  What happened?  I didn't see it.

Leo:  I won't repeat it.

Mary Jo:  Okay.  We don't need to bring that up today.

Leo:  They were mocking Bing.  

Mary Jo:  Even we do.  We do too.

Leo:  Rumor of the week.

Mary Jo:  Right, instead of a code name of the week I'm going to give you a rumor of the week.  This is really interesting.  We know Microsoft is continually adding new features to Cortana and trying to figure out new things that she can do for us.  This one is very interesting to people in business.  The rumor is they are going to make it so that if you are running Microsoft CRM, dynamic CRM the next version which is coming out in Q4, you are going to be able to start using Cortana commands with that.  So you could actually do things like say to Cortana, "Could you schedule a meeting for me with so and so?" or you could say "Could you look up my contact such and such?"  This to me is really interesting because I find Cortana pretty cool and interesting, but I'm like yeah, I want to see her do more businessy things.  I want to see her get  more applied into some of the other applications and not just things like football scores.  I know people like that too.

Paul:  I literally just used it for football.

Mary Jo:  See, I knew you would.

Paul:  I literally last night just said...

Leo:  Cortana, how did the Packers do?

Paul:  "What is the next time the Patriots play?"  "Thursday night versus the Jets" Cortana told me.

Mary Jo:  But what if you could do something even better like create follow-up actions with records?

Paul:  What could be better than that?

Leo:  It's pretty good.  It's pretty good.

Mary Jo:  I should give the person who told me this rumor credit.  I can't really say if it's rumor or fact.  His name is Pierre Holsabus, he works for Scribe Software.  He is at some event this week, the Microsoft Dynamics User Group Conference somewhere and he said they actually said this.  This is the first I've heard of it, so if he is right then the next version of Microsoft Dynamic CRM, the 2015 version, which comes out this calendar quarter, is going to have this.  Pretty cool I think.

Leo:  Here is what Mr. Fallon had to say last night.

Video playing:  You guys have heard that the search engine Bing has a feature that will predict who will lose in the mid-term elections?  Because if anyone is good at predicting failure it's Bing.  Badaboom badaBing!  What's this thing over here, badaboom badaGoogle?  You know what I'm saying?

Leo:  Whoa!  I'm sorry.  And our beer pick of the week.

Mary Jo:  Beer pick of the week.  We had Founder's Day at Rattle and Hum last week.  Founder's Beer from Michigan, they have so many good beers, I've made a ton of them my beer picks, but this one I had never had, it's called Dark Penance.  If you like black IPA's you are really going to like this probably because it's a double black IPA, or and Imperial Black IPA.  It's very bitter and hoppy, but also it's a black IPA instead of a double regular IPA.  It's a seasonal beer that Founder's just started doing now.  I really liked it since I like bitter, and hoppy, and I'm a very bitter person.  It was perfect for me.

Leo:  I like my beer like I like my CEOs, dark and mysterious.

Mary Jo:  Bitter and hoppy.

Leo:  I love the aronomous bosh label on it.

Paul:  Or as Windows Phone always corrects it; bitter and hippy.

Leo:  Bitter and hippy.

Mary Jo:  Yeah, mine too.  Even I get that auto correct.  How many times do I have to fix it?

Paul:  Bitter and hippy.

Mary Jo:  It's really, really good though, really tasty.  It's not a light beer, it clocks in at around 8% or 9%, so be aware.

Leo:  As you say, quaffable not sessionable.

Mary Jo:  Yes, exactly.

Paul:  By the way, you might appreciate this Mary Jo.  I've brought her some of the beer from my favorite brewery, and some of the high alcohol content beers like Imperial Red IPA, which doesn't have that kind of IPA smell when you bring it up to your nose or it's not particularly IPAish, or bitter, or so forth.  They did a version of it and they might actually be switching the version, they let me test it.  It's dry hopped, I don't remember the name of the hops but I think it was something like amerio or amaretto hops or something like that.

Mary Jo:  Amarillo hops, yeah.

Paul:  I was so obviously a hoppy IPA beer when you brought it to your nose that I almost didn't want to drink it, but the interesting thing about it was that it was actually smoother than a regular beer.  He said that the oils in hops actually can contribute to the kind of viscosity of it, and that, in fact, if you do a hoppy beer right it can be smooth and not obviously hoppy.

Mary Jo:  You know IBU measure in beer?  This Dark Penance beer is about 100 IBUs.  That's about as high as you can be.

Paul:  Super hoppy.

Mary Jo:  That's the International Bittering Unit. But still, I didn't find it harsh, it was still good.

Leo:  International Bittering Unit?

Paul:  Is that a defacto signature or and actual ISO type stamp?

Leo:  There is an actual IBU?

Mary Jo:  Right, so you can gauge how bitter and hoppy is something going to be?  Something with a higher IBU is going to be more hoppy and bitter.

Paul:  Mary Jo is 100 IBUs.

Leo:  You can tell nerd are into beer if they have got something called the IBU.  That is for sure.

Mary Jo:  Exactly.  

Leo:  Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley, as always a great pleasure and a privilege to work with you on Windows Weekly.  We do this show every Wednesday 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern Time, 1800 UTC.  We will shift away from summer time, that's November 2nd, so you have a few more weeks.   

Paul:  I just asked Cortana that last night!  I asked her that too.

Leo:  Did she know?

Paul:  That's true.  I literally did just last night.

Leo:  Yes, yes.

Paul:  That's amazing.

Mary Jo:  When does Daylight Savings end?

Leo:  Nobody knows because they keep moving it in our country so that it will be a surprise. 

Paul:  Those are literally the two biggest concerns I have in the world.  Literally the Patriots and Daylight Savings.

Leo:  It's getting dark in the morning, and you know, that's why.

Paul:  That's crazy by the way.

Leo:  What?

Paul:  Literally those were the two things that I asked Cortana last night.  I'm serious, I really did.

Leo:  I believe that.  I believe that.  Inquiring minds wish to know.  Mary Jo of course is, that's her ZDNet blog All About Microsoft.  Paul Thurrott is at the SuperSite for Windows,, but you can also catch his books at the Windows 8.1 book site, that's  Anything you want to plug?  I hear you taking a breath.

Paul:  Me?  No.  I'm sorry.

Leo:  Mary Jo, actually I meant you Paul, but Mary Jo is so quiet.

Mary Jo:  I just wanted to say that TechED Barcelona is coming up at the end of October and I am going this year so anybody who is going to be in Barcelona and might want to do a meet up ping me and maybe we can do something.

Leo:  Awesome, how fun.

Paul:  I have some restaurant and bar recommendations for you.

Leo:  I got an email from somebody who says you are going to be in Norway soon.

Mary Jo:  Oh yeah, I am.  I'm going to be in Norway, not Norway, I'm going to be in Stockholm and Copenhagen in November.

Leo:  Sweden?  Okay, and we are going to work it out so that you can do the show from there?

Mary Jo:  Yes.

Leo:  Good.

Mary Jo:  Yes, it's going to be really fun.  They wanted to do it live from their event.

Leo:  Paul, you should go.

Paul:  To what?

Leo:  To whatever this is in Stockholm. 

Mary Jo:  Stockholm.

Paul:  I would like to go there actually.

Mary Jo:  Stockholm in November.  It's going to be nice and bright.

Leo:  They have like 2 hours of daylight, it's great

Mary Jo:  Yeah, I know, it's going to be great.

Paul:  I think that is cool that you are doing that.

Mary Jo:  Yeah.  It will be good.

Leo:  That's about all he is going to say about that.

Paul:  No, I would do that.  That's neat.

Mary Jo:  I'm interested in seeing Stockholm and Copenhagen, I haven't been to either.

Paul:  Well, I would say since San Francisco I'm not really eager to jump on a plane right now, you know?

Mary Jo:  Yeah.

Leo:  There is no Hotel Lane in Copenhagen.  

Paul:  If only Leo, if only.  

Leo:  If you can't watch the show live, we do love it if you watch live, but if you can't please tune in to one of our on demand versions, audio or video, at  We also put them up on YouTube,  We put them up on iTunes, on Zoon, whatever it is, Xbox Music, the podcast apps.  You can find it, one of the oldest podcasts in the world is Windows Weekly.  Episode 384, thank you Mary Jo, thank you Paul, we will see you next time on Windows Weekly.  Bye, bye.  We are in like year 8 or 9 or something.

Mary Jo:  Are you really?  Wow.

Leo:  Yeah, they stopped hammering.  Could it be that they actually finished?

Mary Jo:  No, I'm sure that they have not.  It's so unbelievable, it's so, so, so loud in here.  We are going into week 2 now, and yeah.  Then there will be the painting.  That will be fun.

Paul:  Painting will be less.

Mary Jo:  But then there's the smell.  The smell of paint.  

Leo:  So London Bob, this happens every time we have a time change, says, "No, our time is changing in October."  It doesn't matter about your time, UTC never changes.

Paul:  Your time does not matter.

Leo:  BST does not equal UTC.  That's why they don't call it Grenich Mean Time anymore, it's UTC.  So that never changes.  The reason that's why our record times change is because UTC does not change for summer time, so we will be actually...

Paul:  This is the end of daylight savings.

Leo:  Yeah, we are going to move the show is what we are going to do because we are going to stay on our regular clock which is 11:00 am Pacific but it will be 11:00 am PST and that changes in relation to UTC because UTC does not change.  That will happen, I don't care what happens in London, that will happen November 2nd.

Paul:  To be clear the first day this happens, or the first time that we record this show after that, I will be an hour late because I have no idea what you just said.

Leo:  It's confusing, I understand.  I understand that it is confusing to the whole world.  Every time it happens I say why.  It's not that we don't want to change back to Standard.  Let's just leave it at Standard, no more of this summer time.

Paul:  Right now, you know, when you get up in the morning with the kids it's pitch black outside.  Then we will go back to light for a little while then it will be pitch black again in the middle of winter.

Leo:  We should just have one time around the world.

Paul:  It should be based around sunrise.  That would be confusing.

Leo:  Alright, thank you guys.  We will talk next week!

Paul:  Bye.

Mary Jo:  Bye.

Leo:  Bye.

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