Windows Weekly 362 (Transcript)

Leo Laporte: It is time for Windows Weekly.  Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley are here.  Paul is at home and Mary Jo is at Tech Head.  We’ve got everything that happened at Tech Head.  Plus we will talk about that new Xbox news, the connect detachment.  All coming up next.  It is a connectome I think they call it on Windows Weekly.  

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Leo: This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley.  Episode 362 recorded May 14th, 2014

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It’s time for Windows Weekly the show that covers your Windows weekly and here they are the pair.  First of all let’s say hi to Mary Jo Foley who is in Houston at Tech Head. 

Mary Jo Foley: I am.

Leo: Mary is the author of All about Microsoft, zd network all about Microsoft.  Are you in a hotel ballroom or something? 

Mary Jo: I am right next to the convention center in a undisclosed location. 

Leo: I think the crappy art gives it away. 

Paul Thurrott: It looks like you are about to hold a board meeting. 

Leo: Exactly, the sconces on the wall. Well good we are going to find out all about.  I like the hoodie, I guess you’re freezing.

Mary Jo: Yeah I am wearing my new TWIT hoodie. 

Leo: Yeah it looks good.  I am glad you have that.

Mary Jo: It is awesome.  It is awesome.  I know it is so cold in here. 

Leo: The irony is that Houston is the worst most muggy hell hole this time of year.  I guess they air condition their way out of it.

Mary Jo: Yeah and today for some reason is in the 60’s here and they are still blasting the air conditioning. 

Leo: Oh of course you can’t turn it off.

Paul: Not until October 1st. 

Leo: That guy is not in Houston.  That is Mr. Paul Thurrott.  He is the host at, I almost said All about Android.

Paul: All about Win super site.

Leo:  All about winsupersite, the supersite for Windows.  He is also an analyst for media and writes all sorts of books about Windows and that kind of thing.  You didn’t make it to Tech Head?

Paul: No I was packed and everything.  I don’t know I got some kind of, I guess now I would call it a stomach flu although I never went to the doctor.  But I was sick for four days like full on awful and then yesterday and the day before a little bit.  But yeah I couldn’t do it.  Saturday night I was all ready to go.  My son had asked me to drive him somewhere so I left the house for the first time in four days.  I drove around town and I was like I can’t go anywhere.  I am just not doing good here.  It was very strange.

Leo: I am sorry to hear that.  But I think in hindsight you missed nothing.

Paul: Well no these events are important for the face to face stuff.  I was going to do some stuff with Microsoft.  I had some plans with the Office garage guys that would have been kind of cool.  You know I like seeing everyone.  Mary Jo is there and Peter Brite and everyone in the whole gang.  So I kind of missed out on that.  Everyone from my workplace as well.  My company does the best of tech awards every year and I would have taken part in that.  It was just kind of a weird thing.  I actually missed a trip years and years ago for something just like this.  I was supposed to go to Sweden to speak at, I think, at IT forum.  Probably like 12 years ago, but it was almost identical kind of an illness.  So every 12 years or so, I guess it is like cycle.  Weird, I haven’t missed a Tech Head in a long time.

Leo: Really?  I am sorry.

Mary Jo: Yeah, we missed you.  We had our Tweet up here and everybody was like where’s Paul, where’s Paul? 

Leo: It is kind of funny, this of all years.  We just had Build.  How many pizzas can you have with Dr. Pizza? I mean really?

Paul: He is better enjoyed over long periods of time, I agree.  But I would have enjoyed see him. 

Leo: I am sorry you missed it.  I am glad you are feeling better.   What happened, I guess this will be the topic of item number one this week.  What happened at Tech Head this week?

Mary Jo: A lot happened.  I know, even though it was Build just a month ago.  They had a ton of announcements.  They condensed their keynote into one day instead of doing it over two days.  So it was just like an hour and a half of fire off announcement after announcement.  The interesting part as Paul noted in our show notes was that all the announcements this year were about the cloud.  There was not a single announcement about and on premises product.  That is really odd for this show because this is a show for IT pros and developers.  So a lot of them I think were expecting to hear about system center or about the on premises servers exchange, sharepoint.  Instead it was all about azure,  all about in tune and basically everything was very very cloud focused.  So that was interesting.

Paul: Right.  I don’t remember the exact order of this, I might get this switched a little bit.  But as Microsoft has kind of moved to the cloud from a business perspective from a business customer perspective.  They first kind of, I don’t know if they coined this term but they adopted this notion of private cloud computing.  Which of course which is just kind of a new name for on premises data type infrastructure.  Microsoft has this hybrid approach that other companies can’t duplicate and I think it is a huge strength for them.  So obviously they’ve kind of pushed that stuff.  But this year I think was the first year they kind of had such a major push for public cloud.  Public cloud is a term that kind of scares enterprises and businesses for obvious reasons.  Because you hear that you think gmail and dropbox and people get scared by that.  A lot of it was, obviously azure is their big public cloud product and it integrates with the on premises stuff.  I was kind of blown away by the sheer amount of azure type announcements at this show.  I keep wanting to call Windows azure.

Mary Jo: Do not it’s called Microsoft now.  It was interesting because it got kind of a mixed review from people who were here.  A lot of people said you know what I know they want us to go to the cloud but I’m not ready.  Microsoft’s answer to that is we want you to be ready and we don’t want you to be surprised and that is why we keep banging you over the head with all this cloud stuff.  I went to a bunch of sessions here and the sessions that were the most popular still were the things that were about configuration manager.  I actually subjected myself to a licensing session.

Leo: And page one of the….

Paul: No first they hand out a stack of paper that is like this big to everybody.  Please turn to page 1,173.

Leo: You might note that herein referred to. 

Paul: There have been a few changes if you could please replace the following pages. 

Leo: I mean seriously what was that like?

Mary Jo: It was a session about everything that they are doing around virtualization.  That’s one of their most complicated licensing areas. 

Leo: Oh you know what you did need to go to that because you have to explain this to people. 

Mary Jo: Well after I sat through it, I was kind of even more perplexed than ever.  Because they keep adding new kinds of virtualization.  Different ways you can virtualize and remote.  Each one has a different set of requirements of what you have to have from a licensing perspective and a hardware perspective.  I was really glad when I could tweet up and i could go have a beer.

Leo:  Why don’t they understand that the more complicated they make this the less likely people are actually going to do what you want them to do. 

Mary Jo: Or they kind of hope that you over license maybe. 

Leo: People are scared.  I just saw an ad for the business software online, you know the guys who try to get you to snitch on your boss.  I am not kidding the ad was report unlicensed software and have a great vacation and it was this guy on the beach.

Paul: Oh that’s incredible. 

Leo: I was like wait a minute, you’re saying be a snitch and we’ll send you to Hawaii. 

Paul: The snitch in prison is typically the guy who gets all the goodies.  So I can understand the direction of this draw. 

Leo: Kind of amazing.  That was such a tone deaf ad. 

Paul: On the flip side of what Mary Jo just said, I do think it is true.  The sheer complexity of this thing, it is like the U.S. tax code.  It probably means a lot of companies are under licensed and that when caught they can at least claim ignorance because of the insanity of how licensing works.  Frankly it is believable I am sure most of the time. 

Mary Jo: Yeah.  But there were a lot of really good sessions.  I will talk later in the show about another one.  It is a show for developers too.  There was some really amazing developer news at this show.  Which it was kind of surprising did not get disclosed at Build.  So we will talk more about that as we go through the many many announcements. 

Leo: I’ve got to do something about your mic there,Mary Jo.  

Mary Jo: Should I go up or down?

Leo: Can you bend it away from you?  Does that arm bend?  Oh yeah there you go. 

Paul: Is that not the AC blowing on it from above?

Leo:  No it’s Mary Jo blowing on it.  That’s much better.  Move it closer to your mouth.  No don’t bend it in, bend it out but rotate it up. 

Mary Jo: How’s that?

Leo: I’ll interrupt every few minutes and let you know. 

Mary Jo: Tell me until I get it right.

Leo: I think it sounds, no don’t breath.  I think the problem is breathing.

Mary Jo: Don’t breath?!

Leo: Can we get you to bend your nose just slightly you know maybe one of those breath right strips.  Anyway people listening that’s what you’re hearing.

Mary Jo: Sorry guys.

Leo: No no, it’s not horrible.

Paul: I am just delighted for once it is not me. 

Leo: And you Paul, you.  No it’s fine.

Mary Jo: Is i better now?

Leo: It is great to have you from Techhead.  To whomever arranged all the room and everything. 

Mary Jo: Yeah, Microsoft did that. 

Leo: Thank you.  What else?

Mary Jo: A lot of people said to me what did I think was the biggest announcement at the show.  I am curious if Paul will agree on this.  But I think their biggest announcement was this thing called Azure remote app at the show.  What that is, it is basically remoting as a service.  That’s how I would describe it.  So you can have your line of business apps or Office running in Azure on a virtual machine, I believe.  You’re going to actually be able to remote those down to users, not just on Windows devices but on Iphones, Ipads, Android tablets, wherever you want it.  So if you have apps you’re going to be able let your customers access them on anything.  That is something I had heard about a year ago that was code name Aharon and I was calling it a Desktop as a service because that’s how it was described to me.  But it’s not exactly,  what we think of when we think of Desktop as a service.  Because usually we think of that as streaming apps down to the desktop.  Instead it is remoting apps to the desktop.  So you are basically delivering a very similar experience but in a different way from a licensing perspective and also from a user experience perspective.  Because you won’t have those kind of stuttery things you can sometimes have when you’re streaming.  I think that was a huge huge deal.

Paul:  Is it true that you’re also see the app experience, another words you’re not seeing a full Windows 7 desktop or something.

Mary Jo: Right. 

Paul: That’s a huge difference right there too.  Right, because Amazon and other companies have remote desktop as a service type solutions.  But that’s what it is, it’s a desktop. 

Mary Jo: Yep.  When you just describe it that way, oh remoting as a service sounds super boring.  But I actually think that was one of the biggest things at the show.  Because a lot of people have said, Amazon is in this space, you know Desktop as a service and Vmware and Citrix, everybody except Microsoft is in this space.  Now finally we are seeing what they are going to do.  They said this is going to be available commercially before the end of this year.  I was surprised it was as far along as it is.  Because when I had heard about it last year it sounded like it was still in development mode, like it hadn’t gone very far.  So it seems like it has gone pretty quickly and they got that almost ready to go. So that was code name AharoWhich we heard about last year.  I thought that, if you had to say to me what was the one biggest thing, that was it.

Paul: Yeah that was clearly the biggest thing.  I think the next two items on the list which are Azure express route and Azure Files are kind of related to that in the sense that they probably all work in tandem to create a more complete kind of remote infrastructure for people.  Especially people who are accessing the corporate resources from devices.  It is kind of interesting, I think Express Route will help improve the performance of remote app for example.  Then Azure files is like SMB over the internet which is kind of awesome.  Unless I am looking at this in the wrong way I see it as its own VPN for file shares.  You know that kind of thing. 

Leo: This is all Enterprise, right?  Broadcasting a Windows app seems kind of interesting.  But I don’t know what it means. 

Paul: Well Microsoft has had, it is interesting the word Broadcasting is a good one because they’ve had this notion inside of corporate infrastructure for a while.  That you could virtualize applications and deliver them to desktops, to terminals and things like that.  This puts it out on the internet, like Mary Jo said, it is remote to the devices that the people are actually using.  It is very interesting.

Leo: It is like remote access, right? 

Mary Jo: Yeah it is.  Yep it is like that.  It is interesting one of the things that they gave people who wanted to test it, it is a public preview, it is free you can test it.  They put Office apps up there because they wanted to give people something to test.  So they actually have their own Office suite up there and you can try running those remotely on your devices using this service.  The reason they put it on Azure is because you don’t always need to have people remoting to get information in apps.  It is something you want to scale up and scale down in other words.  Sometimes you need them to do it and sometimes they don’t.  So that is why it is good that it is a service.  Or at least that is their pitch, why it is good as a service. 

Leo: Everything is better as a service. 

Paul: I was literally just going to say that.  I mean that not in a sarcastic sense. 

Leo: Not the way I am saying it.

Paul: Well because to implement this kind of thing in house requires a lot of infrastructure.  It requires it whether you need it or not.  So that is literally the beauty of doing things this way.

Leo: Hosting is better, I like hosting better.

Paul: Well generally speaking obviously.  But when you hear apps as a service, it literally means the ability to fire up and down resources as you need them without having to have had to bought them first.  Which is the whole point of this. 

Mary Jo: That whole idea is part of their pitch to IT.  They’re saying even though you’re kind of radisson about the cloud what if we start giving you certain things as a service.  Like file sharing as a service, remoting as a service, so you can leave your stuff in the data center.  But try these services to try to connect in.  That is what they mean when they say hybrid cloud. 

Paul: I think Brad Anderson literally referred to this stuff as a gateway.

Leo: They even admitted it. 

Paul: Because that is how it happens.  I think a lot of these people in IT and enterprise, general decision makers are afraid of the Cloud.  For reasons that are good, bad or indifferent.  I think we talked about this in the context of One Drive for Business when they introduced that as a stand in one service.  In the past we always thought about email the kind of obvious first thing that businesses would go to for the Cloud.  But actually as it turns out going to email, switching email from On Prem to the Cloud is difficult.  It is a horrible process and there are these other things that you can provide as services.  It is like swiss cheese, over time more and more of these people who think of themselves as having On premises infrastructure will have more and more links to Cloud services because of this kind of stuff. 

Leo: This is the future.  Microsoft is smart because they are a platform company so when the platform migrates from the desktop you follow it.

Paul: The beauty is they make the software that these companies are using on Prem.  So when someone says look I don’t want to move from Exchange.  I don’t want to move from Sharepoint I have this stuff inside.  Microsoft says cool we make One Drive for Business.  It works with what you have, it is the same.  It’s a much easier sell than a third party service, a Google service or whatever it may be.

Leo: They need to do it because if they don’t then the other guys will.  So you think these are good compelling solutions? 

Mary Jo: I think you can make a really good case for why somebody would try them.  Like another one that’s on Paul’s list here is Azure site recovery.  So this is disaster recovery kind of stuff.  You can make a really good case for hey you don’t want to go build a second data center to have as your backup data center.  Why don’t you save it using HyperV Recovery Manager.  Which is what this is basically and save it up to Azure and we’ll run your data center.  I just said centa,  wow, my Massachusetts accent.

Leo: Centa, hey you got a data centa over there. 

Mary Jo: When I am tired I suddenly start dropping my r’s.

Paul:  I do the same thing.  That’s hilarious.

Leo: That’s funny.  That’s the first time I have heard Mary Jo do that. 

Paul: Yeah me too.

Mary Jo: Yeah so I think you can make a very good case, like Paul said.  You’ve got your stuff On Prem, if you don’t want to have say your exchange server in the Cloud you could at least hook up to a recovery manager type of thing or do different things in the Cloud and still have your main apps and main data on site.

Paul: It is like carbonite for the enterprise.  You could have PC that you’re backing up locally to USB drive but you still want to get it out of there.  Rather than pay for the device that you then have to manage yourself, put it up in the Cloud.  It also gives you that geo diversity kind of thing for your backup as well.  If there is a natural disaster if you’re doing all these local backups at a data center that is in whatever area it’s in.  It makes sense to have that other backup be somewhere else too.

Leo:  Animalware, wait a minute, what?  Is that underwear? 

Paul: Garanimals are back. 

Leo: What is that?

Mary Jo: It is connectables as a service. 

Leo: Anti-malware.  I am sorry I misread that.  Although animalware would be an interesting service. 

Mary Jo: It would be.  Yeah the anti-malware one was interesting.  So they are taking the engine that is the core of Microsoft’s security essentials and Windows defender.  They are taking that core engine and putting it on Azure.  So you can have, again anti-malware as a service.  It is another one of these thing, everything is a service, right.  They are saying hey if you want to run your malware from the Cloud you could do this. 

Leo: That strikes me as something kind of odd.  I’ve always thought for instance these online virus scans seemed a little odd.

Paul: Oh no I will get emails from Microsoft saying it looks like you VM is running a little slow do you want to run the PC tuneup we have as a service? 

Leo: Yeah, that’s what I mean.  It seems like, yeah okay.

Mary Jo: Well the other interesting part of that one, they aren’t only letting you run their anti-malware engine but they partnered with Semantic and Trendmicro too.  So that they are hosting theirs on Azure as well.  So you’re going to have a choice.  You don’t have to use Microsoft’s you could use theirs as well. 

Leo: I am not an IT guy so I don’t really understand the needs of IT professionals.  I know what the real problem is they just don’t want to get out of their chair, really.

Paul: Which is why all this as a service stuff is so awesome because now they don’t have to go down and manually implement something.

Leo: No you just stay in you chair and you do everything from the Cloud.

Paul: You just sign on to something.  Using your stylus and your Ipad or whatever and go back to Angry Birds.

Leo: Go back to Angry Birds, you don’t have to worry about it.  I understand how it works.

Mary Jo: I talked to Mike Crosenavinch about a lot of these announcements.  When he was talking about this one in particular he said, you know we have talked about the idea of blurring the lines not only between On Prem and Cloud.  But also even between infrastructure as a service and platform as a service.  So what they are trying to do is make this look really seamless to people.  Like you don’t really need to know the thing you’re running is in the Cloud.  Whether it is in a VM, whether it’s On Prem and that’s kind of the holy grail and kind of where they are going with all this. 

Leo: Yeah, it shouldn’t matter, right.  That makes sense.  What else?
Paul: So this Office for IPad Remote Management is the one that I am most personally interested in, on this whole list.  Maybe the only one.  But the one that I am very specifically interested in.  Because Microsoft already has exchange activesync and now MDM based policy management for devices.  They can do things like remote wipe and the selective remote wipe and all that kind of stuff.  It works obviously across device types, IOS, Android, Windows, Windows Phone.  This is new to me, this concept that Office for Ipad will be remotely manageable from their MDM solutions which is Windows Intune.  I take this to mean in the future, not that this something that is built into Office for Ipad right now.  But what that means is that from the Office for Ipad apps you can set up various policies. Because Microsoft has things around for example information rights management or the ability to share corporate information outside of the company.  You can set rules up for that stuff, the policy.  So you could say through this management console that you can’t forward and email to another email address.  Or you can only open a document that is shared through your email using Word not using the built in viewer, not using Apples word processing program.  Because once that document is into those other applications it could potentially be usurped and be sent elsewhere.  By keeping it inside of Office you can prevent things like copy and paste or the ability to share it normally through however IOS and the future Android as well works.  That’s a neat step in a direction I sort of didn’t anticipate.  You know that thinking about device management beyond the device and beyond the data.  Because we already have data management in a sense with the wipe type stuff.  We have device management in itself.  Now management of actual apps because of course Microsoft makes those apps.  That’s very very interesting. 

Mary Jo: You’re right, it’s not there yet.  They said it is going to be out by the end of the year.  They have to actually build the capability into Office.  That’s something they have to change. 

Paul: So it requires a future Intune as well as future versions of Office.

Mary Jo: It does.  I asked Julia White who was the one who was demoing this during the keynote, I said, Is that how you’re also going to manage things like Gemini?  You know they don’t really want to talk about Gemini which is the Touch First Word, Excel and Powerpoint.  I would think that could help manage that and Android as well.  Like when Office comes to Android which they said is going to happen.

Paul: Which they were very explicit about, I thought, at the show. 

Mary Jo: So this is how they are going to do it.  If you remember when Microsoft did that whole announcement with Sachi Nadella and they talked about the Enterprise Mobility Suite.  This is part of that whole package.  That’s where this is fitting in.  But yeah that was really interesting and it is sad that it gets shoved in the last 10 minutes of the keynote demo because they were just racing to finish because they had so much stuff.

Paul: That’s when I perked up.  I was like what huh?  It was like Azure, Azure, Azure, you know. 

Leo: Well I have to say it is a nice sleeping aid, Azure, azure, azure, azure.

Mary Jo: That was cool and then the other Office 365 thing they announced that was pretty big was the data encryption around Sharepoint. This is something they don’t want to really use the code name but it is Fort Knox.  That is the code name for it.  Right now they already offer encryption for Exchange in Office 365 and now they are going to be adding encryption for Sharepoint.  That’s pretty interesting too. 

Paul: They specifically said every file would have it’s own encryption key.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: That is unusual isn’t it?

Mary Jo: Crazy, right!

Paul: I am not Steve Gibson I get it but that’s crazy.  That’s different. 

Mary Jo: They are trying to go the extra mile with this and really mix things up.  They are saying not all the same files, for the same customers are being stored on the same servers.  So they are really trying to make an extra level of security built into the Office 365 apps.  It is pretty insane.  In a good way. 

Leo: I am not Steve Gibson either.  I am sure there is a good reason for it.

Paul: Per file encryptions keys, seems like a lot of keys.

Leo: Seems like a lot to keep track of.  Maybe if it is Monkey1234, monkey1235, monkey1236. Then it’s not so hard.  Software development.

Mary Jo: So then the dev news which also only got 10 minutes in the keynote even though it was huge.  They talked about their new partnership for people who wanted to develop Windows and Windows phone apps with Javascript and CSS.  You know how they have been working with Zamran now to do .net development.  They are now doing stuff around the Apache, Cordova platform for those people. 

Leo: No big Zamran announcement?

Mary Jo: No, No big Zamran announcement.  Instead it is like the antithesis of that.  It is their building HTML and CSS tooling to individual studio.  So you can have a choice and an alternative to the .net and Zamran stuff.  So that was interesting.  It got a lot of applause and love at the show actually because some people do want to do that.  Not everybody is in the Zamran camp even though Microsoft is a big Zamran partner.  So that was interesting. 

Paul: I am still a little confused by this. They described the apps you would create with Cordova and Visual Studios, Hybrid apps.  They’re are obviously HTML, Javascript apps.  Then .net Zamran type apps that would go across Windows, IOS, or Android are native apps.  Which is fairly straightforward.  I wonder now, I’ve gotten a lot of tips from people over the last several months, who have told me that MIcrosoft was working on cross development tools.  Everyone took that to mean natively in Visual Studio maybe there would be an express version of Visual Studio that you could create IOS and Android apps or something.  NOw I wonder if this is all that, that was. I don’t mean to downplay it.  I also wonder when they are going to buy Zamran, for crying out loud.  It is like Sam and Diane on Cheers, just get it over with. 

Leo: That was a good Boston reference, I like that.

Mary Jo: It is.  When I heard this announcement I was like maybe they’re not going to buy Zamran

Leo: I am thinking not.  I think this puts the kibosh on the whole deal.  Otherwise, why do it.

Mary Jo: I know.  They are still saying developers should have choice and there are still quite a few developers out there who want to do Javascript and CSS and not .net.  So it is good to have choice but it kind of made me wonder maybe the Zamran thing didn’t happen or maybe it never was going to happen, I don’t know.  It was very interesting. 

Leo: Dr. Dre and Jimmy Iovine have bought Zamran and they are going to merge it.

Paul: right with their millions.

Leo: It’s called Beats cross platform and it is very exciting.

Paul: It is called C

Mary Jo:


Mary Jo: Maybe Steve Wozniak is going to buy them.  I don’t know he was at the show, hanging out.

Leo: Was he? Wait a minute, what?

Mary Jo: Because now he runs Fusion IO right?

Leo: He doesn’t run it, he is like their technical guy.

Paul: There has to be some reason that it is okay that he is there.  Rocky Racoon can go wherever he wants.

Leo: He can go wherever he wants.

Paul: He is welcome, everyone loves him.

Leo: He invented personal computing practically.  The question is why would he have any interest in this, that’s the question. 

Mary Jo: He was part of a session on sql server 2014, believe it or not. Yep he was.  I saw him listed as a speaker and I thought it was a joke at first.  Then I thought maybe there is someone at Microsoft named Steve Wozniak but it was him.

Paul: I will just remind everyone that Steve Jobs showed up at a PDC or some Microsoft event years ago and demonstrated Web objects.  Because it was cross platform.    Remember at the time it was for Sun, it was for NT, it was for whatever.  Next, Openstep whatever.

Leo: Does Microsoft, completely off topic, still have that stake in Apple?  Or did they get rid of that?  Remember they put in 125 or 150 million when Apple was dieing.  

Paul: It is probably a major source of revenue for them now.  I don’t know.

Leo: If they do, smart move.

Paul: Another billion dollar business for them. 

Mary Jo: No kidding.

Paul: That’s a good question.

Mary Jo: I don’t know.  I would think so but I don’t know.

Leo: I bet they divested or were forced to divest at some point.  I’ll look into it while you guys talk about Azure.  No I love it, I think Azure is the future of Microsoft.  So I have to pay attention.

Mary Jo: The other developer news and this was another real big one. This is the one that I am surprise wasn’t at Build.  They talked about the future of which is .net on the server basically.  What they are doing there is kind of crazy.  They’re uncoupling all the pieces that used to be all stuck together to make .net for the server and they are releasing them modularly as nuget packages. Which is wow what, Microsoft open sources stuff.  They are doing a lot around making it so that you have choice. Another whole emphasis on choice.  So if you want to use a different web server from IS you can.  They are shrinking down the common language run time, the CLR and they are making it something that can be delivered with the app itself.  They are doing a lot of crazy and very cool stuff.  Scott Hanselman and Scott Hunter presented that and they basically said here is the future of Asp. net, .net on the server.  I went to that session too and it was packed.  People were super super interested in where they’re going with that.

Paul: That’s interesting.  This has been kind of publicized as Microsoft open sources .net .

Mary Jo: I know some people have written it that way.  I am like, it is not exactly that. 

Paul: It seems a little strong.

Mary Jo: At Build they talked about that they are making more of .net open source.  There are big chunks of .net that they are turning into open source and putting into the .net foundation.  This is more a case of using open source principles and methods towards building apps that take advantage of and build on top of that.  I was really really interesting and just kind of really a very non-Microsoft thing to do.  Big break from the past.

Leo: I am still trying to figure out if Microsoft has a stake in the Apple, I’m sorry.  I think at one point it was worth 4.5 billion.  It was a 150 million dollar investment in 1997 Apple.  I am trying to figure out if they divested it. They had 18.2 million shares of Apple stock which they bought at, get ready for this, $8.31 a share.  It has split several times since then and it sold them.  Microsoft sold all of it’s holdings.

Paul: Sold them back?

Leo: Well whatever on the market.  If they had held on.

Paul: says does Microsoft still own Apple?

Mary Jo: Someone ask Cortana

Leo: If they had held on it would actually be worth upwards of 10 billion dollars.  That 150 million dollar investment.  But they sold it off.  They may have made a lot of money on it I don’t know.  Well we’ve answered that question.  Is now a good time to take a break? 

Paul: Yeah I would say so. 

Leo: Because we have some huge Xbox news coming up. 

Paul: Thank goodness, that will warm up Mary Jo. 

Leo: This Xbox is on my Prem.  Our show brought to you today by  Learn what you want when you want with the folks at  Visit for a very special deal.  Let me just tell you what lynda can teach you, Office of course including Office 365.  They keep up to date all the time.  You can learn Windows 8, Windows 8.1, Windows 8.1 update 1.  There are over 2,568 courses and you’re going to get access to every one of them for an entire week.  Learn how to use Photoshop, Edit with Premiere, learn about Excel.  Do you know Pivot Tables you can learn pivot tables.  Build an effective and engaging powerpoint presentation.  Learn how to use the entire Microsoft Ecosystem.  Windows Desktop and Mobile, Windows games and yes development too.  Creating and distributing apps, navigating the broad range of functions in everyday tasks you will encounter on your Windows devices.  Look keeping your brain nimble and flexible involves life-long learning.  It makes you more valuable at work and it makes using your computer more fun.  So I want you to visit  Browse around, you will be amazed at the huge variety.  Yes how to make your own podcast, if you wanted to.  Google analytics how to use those, how to design with logos, how to develop and C, objective C, C plus, C sharp, Ruby.  Anything you want to learn you can learn at  By the way these are all instructors who are all in the biz.  They are some of my best friends actually teaching at  Many people you see on our shows teach at  Learn it all at  Just go to, normally 25 dollars a month for access to the entire course library, 37.50 for the premium plan.  You’re going to get if free for 7 days.  How many things can you learn in 7 days?  Here’s your challenge.  First look Windows 8.1 update 1, how about that.  This is great stuff, really great stuff.  YOu can watch the course introduction, find out what the course tells you and then sign up.  Sign up and get that free week.  Jess Stratun teaching that course. for one week free and we thank lynda for supporting.  Not only supporting Windows Weekly but frankly for supporting all of us.  We’ve all taken courses at lynda.  I offer classes to our employees, training.  We are moving to Adobe Premier from Final Cut that means a little bit of training involved.  I mean what better way to do it,

Windows Weekly on the air, Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley.  Mary Jo is just back from Techead

Paul: She’s not back she’s still there.

Mary Jo: I am still here.

Leo: Oh isn’t it over?

Mary Jo: No it is going on for a few more days. 

Leo: So what we just talked about is just the keynote there’s still more to learn.

Mary Jo: Yeah. 

Leo: More fabulous licensing seminars waiting for you.

Mary Jo: Exactly.  I told a couple of the guys who were at the podcast last night.  They were asking what sessions I went to and I mentioned this VDI licensing thing and one guy said, here is his exact quote “Jesum”. I was like okay.

Leo: I think that is the new JZ album he’s talking about. 

Mary Jo: There are a lot of sessions though on every topic you can imagine in the enterprise.  I think there are literally 1,000’s of sessions here.  There are 8,000 people here. 

Leo: Did they say anything about doing this again in the future or are they going to merge this into Build too?

Mary Jo:  That was something that a lot of people were trying to track down.  On the back of the program it says we will see you next year but there haven’t said where.

Leo: Somewhere, somehow. 

Paul: Or if it means at Techead

Mary Jo: Right yeah.  One guy I talked to said yeah they are going to do it again but they haven’t disclosed an actual plan at this point.

Leo: Huh, interesting. Techead is primarily for IT professionals isn’t that right?

Mary Jo: And developers.  To some extent developers.   Not as much of a developer show as build. 

Leo: Enterprise developers maybe?

Mary Jo: Yep. 

Leo: It is very much a enterprise show. 

Mary Jo: Yes it is.

Leo: So speaking of enterprise, Xbox.

Mary Jo: I like the segway.

Leo: You owe me Mary Jo, I am going to talk about Xbox for 5 minutes okay. 

Mary Jo: You know what I am actually interested in this Xbox news. 

Leo: Methinks you doth protest too much.

Mary Jo: No I am, I am interested in the part one of this very much. 

Leo: The no more connect.  So obviously somebody at Microsoft must have been concerned.  We had word that Xbox was losing Market Share II to PlayStation IV because it was 100 dollars cheaper. 

Paul: This should have been obvious about 9 months ago. 

Leo: And it feels like capitulations because in fact I am unhappy about it because I have a Kinect.  I want more games developed to use the features of Kinect.  More software to use the Infrared.  This means now there is going to be a population of Xbox I owners who don’t have Kinect. 

Paul: So I don’t know, I am not sure about that.  I think that the reality of Kinect is that obviously it makes sense for Kinect games, Kinect specific games like the fitness type apps and all that kind of stuff.  It makes sense for entertainment apps where you use your voice to control playback and all that kind of stuff.  I think that is one of the greatest uses of Kinect.

Leo: I use it all the time Xbox Pause, Xbox Play.

Paul: Yeah that stuff works really well.  I’ve used this kind of comparison in the past.  A lot of people think I knee jerk hate things that Google makes or Apple makes.  But when I complained about the Chrome Cast for example.  This is a really inexpensive device, you throw in a TV or whatever.  One of the big problems with that thing, it may sounds silly on the face of it but you trigger some kind of content playing back.  It plays and looks great and then the doorbell rings, the phone rings or your kids come stumbling in with an explosion of sound.  What you want to do is pause that thing but your phone or tablet has gone to sleep and now you’ve got to wake it up, you’ve got to put in your pin.  It is not as easy as using a remote but the thing that is even better than using a remote is just saying Xbox pause.  Anyone in the room can do it and it’s such a convenience, it is a good thing.

Leo: That’s the feature of the Xbox I that I use than any other or Xbox watch PBS or Xbox watch CNN and it does it.  It does it for 2 reasons, because Kinect has the microphone.  Without it I can’t talk to the Xbox I, am I right?

Paul: Right. 

Leo: But Kinect also has the Infrared Transceiver that talks to my TIVO, my AV receiver and my television.  So it’s the ultimate universal remote.  Because when I say Xbox watch CNN it knows exactly what to do.  It knows my cable guide.  It knows what channel to tune to, it knows the TIVO has to be on, the AV receiver has to be on and set to cable.  It knows the TV has to be on and it does all that.  That’s huge. 

Paul: Yes.  The problem is that device is really expensive, in fact it is 100 bucks.

Leo: Well it is a 100 bucks. 

Paul: So I think the primary issue they had was that.  I have seen so many smart people fall into this trap to of just kind of blurting this out like it makes any sense.  “The Playstation IV is so much better if you want a pure gaming experience.”  It’s like saying the Playstation IV is only better if you want to do only gaming.  Which is baloney because they are equally good at that.  But the Xbox I does so much more.  But it’s also 100 bucks more.  So I think what they need was, well I know what they needed, I knew this last June.  They needed an option that could go head to head with the PSIV.  Not just on price but on capabilities, works the same, there you go.  Somebody on Twitter, somebodies probably said something that I actually agree with. “ It is to bad they couldn’t make the 500 dollar version or whatever it costs now be the 399 version.”  And that is true.  I think the truth of it is that, the sensor thing is really expensive for them.  It is not just something they are artificially saying is worth 100 bucks.  I think it cost 100 bucks.  I think that’s the truth.

Leo: I am sure they were selling it at cost.

Paul: Well they are already selling at a loss.  Can you imagine lopping off 100 bucks off of the price of this thing.  So that’s the reality of it.  This is something they should have done from day one.  I agree with you and with others who have said well you know Connect is dead.  Because no one is going to develop for this and all that kind of stuff.  But you know the truth is for the kind of hard core games the Call of Duties, Titan Fall well Titan Fall has some Kinect stuff in it.  You know most people aren’t going to be talking to their computer while they are playing a videogame of that type.

Leo: No, right. 

Paul: They are certainly not going to be gesticulating in front of it other than when they lose.  To me because I am really good at Call of Duty. 

Leo: But you yourself have said that the command Xbox record that, or what was that?

Paul: Yeah, record that.  I used that just today, it is wonderful.

Leo: So you’re playing a game and you want to save the last 30 seconds you say Xbox record that and you continue to shoot.

Paul: Is that worth 100 buck, yeah I think it is actually.  But the truth is a lot of people can’t afford that. 

Leo: Yeah I understand.

Paul: By the way Yusuf Mehdi who is the corporate  vice president at Xbox for Microsoft said something really interesting.  The reaks of BS in a way but this was the first time I had ever heard anyone make this argument.  Which was, when asked why Sony had such a lead over Xbox I,they said when obviously they are in more markets than we are for one thing.  Almost 4 times as many markets, thats a big deal.  But he said you know the truth is we know the Xbox 360 has much higher customer satisfaction rating than the PS III so our customers are less likely to upgrade because they still love their Xbox’s.

Leo: That is an interesting little.

Paul: I am not saying that I buy into that but I am saying that’s interesting.

Leo: I think Microsoft has mishandled Xbox from day 1.  I know you agree.  The announcements that it had to be always on, always connected.  You couldn’t use it in a submarine or whatever.  There are still misapprehensions.

Paul: They went on to give into the wrong things, which kills me. 

Leo: Well that’s my question, is this the wrong thing?  This is definitely a give in.

Paul: No I think this is something that should have been there from day one. 

Leo: No you’re right.

Paul: You don’t have to include the Kinect with the box to require developers to write to it.  A lot of the artificial hanrayin, it is artificial.  There is no leverage.

Leo: I just love the Kinect.  I can use Skype and it will zoom into me when I talk.  Part of the reason it is not selling well I think people don’t understand it or think of the old Kinect.  DMA1 in our chatroom says well my room is not big enough to use Kinect. 

Paul: Well now it is.

Leo: It is big enough, it is the old Kinect. 

Paul: I think, Leo that people would be blown away.  I don’t think people understand the importance of Kinect.  I will give you another one nobody knows anything about.  In all other consoles, in previous Xbox Consoles if you had 2 controllers connected to the system and on one of them you were logged in with Microsoft account A and the other one was Microsoft account B or whatever and you were switching the controllers back and forth.  The system would have no way of knowing that so whichever controller was tied to Microsoft account A, if that person got an achievement that would happen.  Even if it wasn’t the guy who did it on the account because the system has no way of knowing who has the controller.  But with a Kinect it knows who has the controller. 

Leo: It knows everything.

Paul: It knows you are you. 

Leo: It knows you’re not wearing pants.

Paul: It does know that too actually.  No but you see kind of the importance of that.  If you have 2 people on a sports team or something.  One guy is the goalie and one guy is on offense or something.  If we switch controllers it knows now that we have switched positions.

Leo: It’s amazing. 

Paul: It’s smart.  That is a very cool capability.  It is a little hard to explain in a 30 second television ad along with all the other great stuff that Kinect does.  It is a neat thing.  So there is an upsell for those people.

Leo: You can buy a Kinect as an add on later?

Paul: You will be able to in the fall.  When you buy a Playstation IV for example you can buy the Sony I or whatever the piece of junk is.

Leo: The Move.

Paul:  It doesn’t do anything, it is a piece of junk.  It is terrible, it is a waste of money.  60 bucks I think it is.  The Kinect is a great upgrade.  With the Xbox I in particular.  I mean it does a lot of stuff.  A lot of stuff, like I said think would surprise people.  Anyway now they have a 400 dollar version. 

Leo: Alright you have talked me off the ledge.  I guess you’re right.  It is a nice feature but if you’re very price sensitive.  I actually kind of agree with the Microsoft guy that if you have an Xbox 360 because it’s not compatible with Xbox 360 games.  The one is not that compelling of a purchase especially at 500 bucks.  But even at 400 bucks.  I think most people are waiting for the killer game.

Paul: You know because I’ve been doing it for years. Once a month I cart an Xbox 360 in a bag, now my son and I go.  We go up the street, we play video games with the guys up the street.  I would never do that with an Xbox I.  It’s twice as big and heavy.  I would be afraid of damaging it.  It is really expensive. Oh and by the way no one has one. 

Leo: And it is firmly wired into my home theater system; I can’t.

Paul: Yeah it is a different kind of thing.

Leo: I’ve got the connections going up through the back.  I mean it is in there.  I don’t like to take it out for anything. 

Mary Jo: What I am wondering in all this though what does it mean on the developers side?  When you had Kinect forcibly bundled with every Xbox I it was like okay you know it is going to be there.  As a developer you might or you might not write applications that take advantage of it.  You probably would think about it.  Now you can’t count on it being there so what does that mean?  I wonder what it is going to mean even on the Windows side too.  Even though those aren’t the same Kinect’s and all that.

Paul: This is a lot like every other decision that Microsoft makes.  Another words are we going to make Office for the iPad and thus screw over Windows or screw over Surface.  You know those weird kind of Solomon type decisions you have to make.  If Xbox I doesn’t make it because developers and users are going to Playstation it’s not going to matter that Kinect was bundled with it. 

Leo: Yeah your right.

Paul: The Platform is more important than Kinect. 

Leo: Were we at risk of that? Do you think it was that bad?

Paul: They just unbundled it.  This was a core part of it.  By the way they told someone, New York Time or Forbes or somebody.  The decision making process for this started in April.  Well you know what else happened in April?  April was right when Titan Fall had just come out and they didn’t win the month.  In the United States too by the way.  If you can’t win in the month when your so called best ever exclusive game, this is the reason you want the console has come out.  Nothing is happening this year to turn around the sales trends.  So people can say it’s early yet, it’s early yet and then suddenly it’s not early yet.  When that gap grows and it grows and it grows.  You’ve got to nip this one in the bud before it gets out of control.  They’ve sold a lot of them, by the way.  They’ve sold, whatever the figure was 5 million into the channel.  It’s not inconsiderable but it is possible there are almost twice as many PSIV’s out there in actual consumers hands as there are Xbox I’s.  That differential is only going to grow.  So that’s what they are trying to prevent. 

Mary Jo: No matter why they did it, I actually think they had to do it because of a sales perspective.  It kind of does make it look like we are backing away from the Kinect.  I know that’s not the message they want to send.  I know they have always touted the connect as proof that we develop a lot of cutting edge stuff and we’re ahead of the curve and this is a big differentiator but doing this does definitely send a mix signal.  I don’t think you can get around that. 

Paul: I look at this exactly like the decision to go back and reform Windows 8. Whatever, to make it better for mouse and keyboard. It is exactly like that because people look at that and they go oh we are back tracking.  It is 2 steps forward and 1 step back.  You said that touch was the future or voice in this case or whatever.    In both cases I think Microsoft does feel that these things are the future but they also know they have to cater toward reality to today’s users and all that kind of stuff.  Sometimes you move a little too quick, it’s not something we are used to in Microsoft land.  But Windows 8 and now Xbox I maybe they just went down that road too quick. 

Mary Jo: I am seeing a ton of editorials on different sites saying Microsoft don’t give up on the future.  This was like the good stuff you were doing. 

Paul: You know what, the world that we live in.  You, Me and Leo, this little tech bubble kind of sucks because it is so easy to criticize everything.  My criticism of this decision is that it happened now.  I wish it had happened earlier.  But I look at it that this is the right thing to do, overall.  Understanding that yes it does undermine Kinect a little bit.  Which I think is better than undermining Xbox.  It’s amazing to me and I see this from users, from people on Twitter, Email, on my comments, Oh Microsoft flip flopping again, backtracking.   I don’t even understand what that means.  They are responding to real world market conditions and they are doing what users are asking them to do.  I am not saying we should praise the company.  But my God it is so easy to complain about everything.  Leave it to the experts, that is what I do.  It’s amazing to me how negative people are. 

Mary Jo: I also kind of wondered aloud, I think I even said it on Twitter.  I guess that is wondering aloud.

Leo: Oh yes.

Mary Jo: About whether Cortana coming to Xbox could take over some of the functionality that people are relying on, at least from the voice perspective? 

Paul: You still need to have a way to get it.

Mary Jo: You still need to have a microphone, right.

Paul: You could wear something like you’re wearing.  Actually one comes with it.  I guess that would work.  It remains to be seen.  I talked about this earlier this week.  Amazon came out with ROKU tape device recently.  The FireTV I think it is called.  It is what it is, a set top box or whatever.  But one of the things it does is you can speak to it.  The way that you do it is, I don’t have the controller but I’ll just hold it up like that.  You can pitch it like a remote control and you hold it up to your mouth and you hold the button in and you speak to it.  That’s actually not a horrible way to handle it.  It’s super low tech compared to crazy 21st century microphone technology overcompensating for the sound of speakers.  Knowing where you are in the room based on positions.  But if all you want to say I want to see movies with this actor in it or I want to find this thing.  Actually that works pretty well.  It doesn’t have to be some super crazy futuristic minority type thing.  Just get the job done. 

Leo: I have that on my 10,000 dollar Samsung Oled TV and it does pretty well as well as on the Amazon.  But if you start splitting up the hardware development like that then you really got a problem.  It’s one thing now for a developer to say check for Kinect if exists do this.  That’s not so hard.

Paul: And there is no other microphone option. 

Leo: They combine them, look how much is a game, 60 bucks.  Kinect a 100 bucks it is less than 2 games.  Are you really that price sensitive, really?  Do you never buy games?  The cost of the machine is small compared to the cost of a game library.  I think the bigger problem is that people liked their Xbox 360.  I think Microsoft actually was right. 

Paul: Yeah it is an interesting argument.  This is a tough sell for a living room device.  It is very expensive.  Even at 400 bucks it is very expensive.  Playstation IV is very expensive.  When you can buy a ROKU for 99 bucks or less or an Amazon or the Apple TV or whatever.  There are all these devices that cost under 100 bucks.  They have a ways to go before they are going to hit some kind of a mass market with this kind of device. 

Leo: Yeah.  Alright I am sorry Mary Jo. 

Mary Jo: No actually I am very very interested in this because it impacts more than just people playing Call of Duty.

Leo: Well yeah this is big.

Paul: Yeah but the understanding is those people are the most important.  There is another half to the story though.  This is after years of abuse, Microsoft has also removed or will also be removing the requirement to have a Xbox live gold subscription in order to use most entertainment experiences and Microsoft apps. 

Leo: You mean like Netflix?

Paul: Like Netflix.

Leo: Because I never knew why I had to buy Netflix and Gold.

Paul: Nobody did.  Back in the 360 days I guess we were a captive audience and they could just keep charging us. Cheaper solutions that all can run are Netflix and Hulu plus for free. Xbox 360 and Xbox 1 until June 1 are the only ones where you have to pay another subscription fee on top of that in order to access this stuff. It’s amazing. Even to use Microsoft Internet Explorer browser, one drive, the one guide – the program guide - you needed an Xbox subscription. It’s like this additional annual on top of everything else you just spent on the console so it’s crazy. They’re getting rid of that as well. That one I have to say is somewhat out of the blue. They’ve been calling for them to do this for years and years and I never understood this. So they’re finally doing that. That’s also good news. Haven’t seen a lot of back tracking complaints about that one but that also I would say is good. Music is changing.

Mary Jo: I use Xbox music.

Paul: This one is big for me. I’m writing a book about Xbox music. I love Xbox music. I think Mary Jo and I are the only Xbox music users on the East coast.

Mary Jo: No, there’s more.

Paul: There’s 6-7 of us. There aren’t many.  Xbox music is an excellent music service. The app on Windows 8.1 needs some work. I get that but I actually like it a lot. I use it all the time and I think it works great. As originally envisioned and as I’d heard about it before it was announced there are 1 of 2 things that are still missing from the service and the confusion that I wrote about here is that Tom Warren caught a story in a Chinese website that said that the ability to stream music from 1 drive would be coming to Xbox music. Which is one of those things that I’d heard years ago about a feature, at the time it was SkyDrive but I used to write about how you would have a music folder in SkyDrive, you’d put music in it and then you’d be able to access it from your Xbox music app on your phone. You could download that music to your phone if you wanted over the air and you’d be able to do that. This has never appeared. That is apparently what is appearing but people have comingled it with a feature that Microsoft promised which was the ability to scan and match. Right now if you have a lot of music on your computer you can run the Xbox music app it will look at that music it will not should not what's up in Xbox music in the store and if the music is in the store it will add to your collection and then you can sign on with another device and that music will just appear there you can stream it is automatic you don't have to move the music around like it's a neat feature. The thing that's missing though it's a feature that you get with iTunes match and get it in the Amazon MP3 service you get it in Google music is the music isn't in the store have an album that isn't in Xbox music store for some reason there is no reason to upload it to your collection. There is no store there for that, like a storage. People call it a music locker.

Leo: Right Microsoft does that Amazon does it in a number of other companies. That's one of the main reasons I use Google play music because it's got my music in the store and it doesn't have to be the same.

Paul: Actually it's funny, I sort of use one drive like that. I do have a music folder in one drive and I do put music unit that I know isn't it Xbox music store it's kind of a handy way to do it. I guess it would work in that capacity but my understanding is that one drive’s base functionality will be streaming only. Obviously what you want is the ability to co-mingle the store collection with your personal collection and be able to download it to any device. So this is the confusion, how this corresponds with what is really happening.

Leo: I've got the music in me.

Paul: I like the music in one drive and then I would like it to go into Xbox music and I think it's coming but…

Leo: Our show today brought to you by IT Pro TV and we’re going to talk about the service and more. I guess there are some announcements coming up. Is it this week, the event?

Mary Jo: Next week.

Leo: You guys are going to be flying to New York which is a short flight from Mary Jo.

Mary Jo: Yes very short.

Leo: A Subway flight. Our show today brought to you by IT Pro TV. The great guys at IT Pro TV, Tim and Don and the gang there produce really excellent content designed for the budding IT professional or the aspiring IT professional, or the IT professional who wants to polish their skills. If you are interested in getting Certs IT Pro TV is an easy and painless way to learn it at a fraction of the cost of technical school or even the training materials you will find in the bookstore. It is easy and entertaining. I'm at That's their website. I see the on air light blinking on the website so let's head on over to the line on air video and you'll see if you watch it looked a lot like the stuff we send out and that's because Tim and Don were fans of Tech TV and then of course later of TWIT and they wanted to do something similar for IT professionals or somebody learning Certs. You can create a free account to login; you don't have to pay for an account to watch the live stuff. Does that not look a little bit familiar? To me it looks just like the old Tech TV set. They are preparing a show right now. They've got a live chat room Tim Brohm is in there right now waiting for people to join the broadcast. Look at the episodes and you'll see the broad variety of stuff they cover. They are adding 30 hours now of new content every week. Their episode library has courses on CompTIA and Microsoft, Cisco, A+, CCENT, net plus, security, MCSA. They are doing new high-end security courses from ISC squared including SSCP and CISSP. Adam Gorby is doing those he's a great guy to do it and by the way that is an awesome thing because if you want a single skill that probably will be the most valuable skill in the years to come in IT it is security and having those ISC Certs really enhances your value. Normally IT Pro TV charges a flat monthly rate of $57 a month $570 for an entire year full access to everything and when you sign up for a year you can also download the episodes audio or video for off-line consumption which is very nice. That's really nice! There is a free subscription that lets you watch live sessions. They have a Roku player as well. I'm going to tell you how you can really save in a second but there are so many other features here. Get the measure up practice exams free included with your subscription. Those are worth $79, plus their virtual machine sandbox lab lets you do hands-on practice and learning all of this for $57 a month or $570 for the entire year but we have a special offer for Windows weekly listeners. Go to and use the offer: WW30 and you’ll take 30% off your subscription. Not just for the first month or year but forever. You are going to learn, learn, learn, and if it's fun, if you like what you see on TWIT you're going to love preparing for the IT certification with IT Pro TV. and use the offer code ww30 and you'll save 30%. People are getting jobs. I hear from people every day say I found out about IT Pro TV from you and it is absolutely incredible. There is a no hassles easy cancellation policy. Probably the only reason you would cancel is because you got the Cert. But keep it, lifelong learning is a good thing. we thank Tim and Don and the whole gang over there for their support of Windows weekly. Paul Thurott and Mary Jo Foley are here and were talking about Windows and Xbox, Azure and surface. Is the cycle speeding up here? Was it a year and a half ago that surface was announced? Was it six months ago that surface 2 came out?

Mary Jo: Surface 2 was October right?

Leo: And now here we are with Surface 3.

Paul: Surface 4 will be out July and then.

Leo: So this is Surface Pro 3 and it is an Intel device?

Mary Jo: We should backtrack and say what we know.

Leo: Ok so this is rumor nobody's said anything right now.

Mary Jo: The launch of the next Surface or Surfi is May 20th in New York. We know that. We are pretty sure that surface mini which is based on Arm is one of the devices that are going to be announced. Paul had heard that there is going to be at least one Intel-based device as well announced at that launch. Somebody today and I'm forgetting who found a link on a Microsoft webpage mentioning a Surface Pro 3. We don't know if that is the other device that is going to be launched, it would seem like that is the case but we don't know anything more about it I don't think. We don't know any additional specs we don't know if that means atom or haswell based, we don't know what that means or how big the screen size is going to be. But given the name of surface Pro I would think that could be a larger and more powerful device. We'll know next week. We'll know on Tuesday. Microsoft is going to stream the launch.

Leo: What time?

Mary Jo: Starting 11 AM ET so 8 AM your time.

Leo: Aww.

Mary Jo: Sorry!

Leo: Means I’ve got to get up early.

Paul: The good news is I don't think this stuff is going to be available for sale immediately. So you are going to have about a month before you can get one.

Leo: Alright.

Mary Jo: If anybody is coming to New York or going to be in the area next Tuesday we're thinking about doing a little meet up after the event. Probably at Rattle & Hum so stay tuned if you are around.

Paul: I’m going to spend the night which I don't usually do.

Mary Jo: Nice.

Paul: Actually I found an awesome deal on a hotel in New York City. I was talking to Brad Sams from Neowin about this because one of the reasons I don't stay in New York is because it's so expensive.

Leo: I’m guessing you didn't use Air B&B. Apparently now illegal in New York.

Paul: Hotels in New York can be 400-500 dollars a night. But I found one for 260. It's kind of a smoking deal. My wife may actually come as well.

Leo: Do you use those sites like or Priceline? We use those last minute. I think it’s hotel d’night or something like that. I’ve found amazing deals like the Sophietel which is a very nice mid-town hotel for like $175.

Mary Jo: Wow.

Paul: The other problem is that it’s not the New York City is so physically big although it is a humongous city, it just has so many distinct areas so if you do something - like I was on Expedia finding a hotel and you really have to know your way around to understand what area you’re in because you can’t just look at hotels in Manhattan, you have to go to the exact area.

Leo: Well the Bronx is up and the Battery is down, people ride around on a hole in the ground.

Mary Jo: Yes we do.

Leo: I know that much.

Paul: Yes it’s a complicated place if you don’t live there.

Leo: Are you going to stay in the meat packing district?

Paul: Yes, it’s close, wherever I am very close to the… actually that wasn’t necessarily smart was it?

Mary Jo: You’re staying on the edge of China town aren’t you?

Paul: Yes.

Mary Jo: That is close.

Paul: That’s not close to Rattle & Hum. I should have stayed up close to there.

Leo: Because that a longer walk after 800 beers.

Mary Jo: It’s a short cab or subway ride. You’ll be good.

Leo: You’ve got to try 1 of each.

Paul: Right.

Leo: Paul’s going to try to earn his 40 beer mug in 1 night.

Mary Jo: Wow.

Paul: Right.

Leo: See I would do that because I want a mug with my name.

Paul: I kind of do too.

Leo: That’s commitment.

Mary Jo: Everyone knows your name at Rattle & Hum.

Leo: They know your name.

Mary Jo: They do.

Leo: Do they shout when you come in the door? Mary Jo!!

Paul: They do, I told you that last time we went in and at least 3 people shouted her name and these 2 guys at the bar were very disgruntled and they were like you didn’t greet us like that when we came in.

Leo: There’s good news, Shivers is in our chat room and he knows New York like the back of your hand and he says there’s 27 lamp posts from your hotel to Rattle & Hum. So you’re going to be ok.

Mary Jo: Very good to know.

Paul: I will bounce off every one of them that I can assure you.

Leo: I won’t speak for Mike but maybe we’ll try to get one of you on before or after the event to report in and of course the following day will be Windows Weekly so we can talk about it. Your best guess –

Paul: Surface Mini and a Pro device of some kind.

Leo: And maybe a Surface Pro 3…

Paul: That name came up. By the way that could just be a typo.

Mary Jo: It could actually.

Paul: Given what we’ve kind of heard on the side yeah I suppose they could call it a Surface Pro 3 – bigger device, we’ll see.

Leo: Bigger than the current Surface?

Paul: Yes. Hopefully by bigger it doesn’t mean thicker.

Mary Jo: Yes, I know right. I think they kind of have 2 choices. They can go bigger and faster and more expensive or they could go atom and slower but cheaper.

Paul: I don’t know anything about screen size. I don’t know a lot about the 2nd device at all but if it’s a bigger screen let’s says and it’s a tablet hopefully it’s as thin as the Surface 2 but has the innards of the Surface Pro 2 if that makes sense…or similar upgraded. I don’t know, we’ll see.

Leo: Well I’ll call Randall Schwartz and tell him… No wait a minute, I guess it doesn’t preempt Randall so that’s good.

Paul: One of the problems with the Surface Pro lineup is that there aren’t a lot of upgrades. They have different models but there’s no model with an i7 processor. There are a couple things that they actually could have done.

Leo: Do you really think there should be I wonder…

Paul: Yes, it could come with a great premium but I think it needs to be there. I don’t know.  Surface Pro 2 is ok. To me it’s the screen. If they’d fix that I’d be ok with it.

Leo: Microsoft blinked again.

Mary Jo: The timing of this was pretty funny too. Right before Tech Ed kicks off – maybe 30 minutes before the key notes starts – Microsoft posts a blog post saying “you know how we told you that you were going to have to update to Windows 8.1 update before the May patch Tuesday which is this week”? Well guess what, we’re going to give you 30 more days. If you’re a consumer we’re going to let you wait until the next Patch Tuesday in June before you update to update 1.

Leo: And presumably if you’re a business user you’ve got a lot longer.

Mary Jo: You do, you have until August if you’re a business user, which isn’t a ton of time given the way that a lot of enterprises test and do a lot of things to prepare for these updates but still they already had more time. This is just giving consumers who haven’t yet updated to update 1 a little more time.

Paul: By the way just to be clear, for consumers this is something that happens automatically. You don’t really have to…

Mary Jo: Right if you have Automatic updates.

Paul: It’s not like we’re asking people to go out of their way to get something done, it’s just something that happens.

Leo: And if you have 8.0 this doesn’t impact you. It’s only if you’ve already updated 8.1 and then you get the automatic update and that’s that.

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: has better rules. No spitting on the floor. My first feature that I look for in email is the ability to do rules. The way Gmail does it is weird.

Paul: already has Rules and they also have something called Sweep which is very nice and simple interface to Rules. So this is more like a power user feature advance rules. It’s the ability to combine rules for 1 thing so it’s sort of like aggregating rules. But also just compound rules, it’s what you would expect.

Leo: If it’s from my mom and it doesn’t refer to Mother’s Day put it in… It’s nice to be able to do that. That’s when you really get to be a power email user.

Paul: My understanding is that it comes over the next couple of days. I still haven’t seen it. I should look and try different accounts.  What else is in there? Undo, which is another one of those things. They don’t have undo on sent mail but it’s on a bunch of stuff and that’s pretty good. Inline reply and that’s exactly what it sounds like. Instead of opening like a new view the reply sits above the previous email so you can kind of do 2 things at once. I still don’t have the new – disappointing.

Mary Jo: They said it’s going to roll out in the coming week.

Paul: Sweep and the existing rules interface – what you’re seeing is rules. This is normal rules, the advanced rules is like a pop up wizard. It looks like a full screen notification and a different interface.  I don’t see it on either one of my accounts.

Leo: The current rules are fairly scant.

Paul: They’re fine but what you can’t do it double them up.

Leo: You need that, multiple conditionals.

Paul: You can’t have rules based on other rules. So they’re improving it.

Leo: Good. That’s an area where they could really leapfrog Gmail if they’re paying attention. Inline reply, that’s nice. Undo – not undo send.

Paul: Not undo send. Undo delete would be the biggest one.

Leo: Outlook desktop has kind of an undo send.

Paul: You know what does that work for anybody?

Leo: No you have to have outlook at both ends.

Paul: I get so many email messages where it’s like Bob likes you, call back his email. It’s like you know Bob I wasn’t going to look at that email but now I think I’m going to…

Leo: Now I want to look at it. It’s the Barbara Streisand effect. OneDrive for business updated with a new web interface.

Paul: That’s another one I don’t have yet. It’s being updated. There’s a couple of small things like they’re putting site folders and recycle bin as links so you can access them very quickly. A lot of people didn’t even know there was a recycle bin so I think that’s a good deal. Then they just have simple controls UI. It’s basically a bunch of commands that are like those gigantic Microsoft fonts that they so often use now. New uploads, sync, edit, manage and share are prominently displayed in every document view. If you use OneDrive for business – I use it for Windows 8.1 book. The web interface is kind of Spartan; it’s utilitarian so I think they’re just trying to make it a little prettier and little more useful. But then again I don’t have this update yet either. I’m going to check again but I didn’t have it as of last night.

Leo: Link for Android. That’s cool.

Paul: Yes, nothing to say there…

Mary Jo: It was on phones before. It was on Android phones and now it’s on tablet.

Leo: It’s just bigger. Tablet is really the best way to use video conferencing. I think. It’s just really a natural way to do it.

Paul: Actually I do have the OneDrive…

Leo: For business?

Paul: It’s pretty.

Leo: I’d show it but I don’t have OneDrive for business.

Paul: Actually it’s dumber than that. I have those simple tools that I just talked about there but the other stuff is not. Never mind.

Leo: We’ve got some tips from the back of the book coming up. Tips, software pick, enterprise pick, code name, rumors and beer; the big 5 coming up in just a little bit. Our show today brought to you by Citrix who make a product that you all ought to know about called Sharefile. Sharefile eliminates one of the biggest hazards of email – email attachments. Now if you’re in business you might say well I need email attachments. I can’t function without sending a PowerPoint presentation, the document, the contract or spread sheets. It’s dangerous, bounce back is a problem. You don’t control it. When you send something out over the internet it’s out in the open in the public eye. I think we all know that by now. Sharefile solves that by making it very easy to share files with colleagues. Or – and I don’t talk about this enough – get files from colleagues. You can request files and even if they don’t have a Sharefile account they have a very easy simple way to send you the file that you’re requesting, securely, easily. You can control the files that you offer. Let me just log onto my Sharefile account and show you. I use Sharefile and the Sharefile sync tool makes it very easy for me because I just have to save the file. I do it mostly with audio files. I just have to save that file to a special folder or two – I have several on my desktop and Sharefile automatically synchronizes them up to my Sharefile store which you see here. Notice a couple of things – first of all my Logo, my company logo. It’s the same thing when you share a file with somebody, that’s what they’re going to see – not the Sharefile logo but your company’s logo. Makes it look like you’ve got a special file sharing system. The files are all up there as I said automatically as I create them. That makes it very easy for me to share a file. Now I have set up permissions so I actually have it set up that the people I share files with regularly will just automatically get an email saying Leo put another file in the folder you share. You can do it that way but you can also just say hey I want to send a file. Sending it as if it were attached to an email, in fact if you use the outlook plugin it is just like an attachment except it’s not. You can ask for email addresses from your recipients or not. You can say how long the download is good for, when it expires, for how many times they can download it. You’ll get a secure link which makes it very easy. The secure link is attached or you paste it into an email and when they click it in their emails they’re going to get this very beautiful simple page with your company logo, a big download button. If it’s multiple files they’ll zip it for you automatically and it makes it very simple. They do not have to have an account. They don’t really have to know anything. That’s kind of important frankly. You can’t count on your recipients being gurus of technology. Sharefile makes it simple for you, simple for them. Gives you complete control and you’ll get email alerts when the files are opened and on and on. I want you to try it, it’s really great. Sharefile, free for 30 day. If you would do me a favor, go to the Sharefile site, there are a couple of free trials on that website. If you click the one at the top of the page where it says podcast listeners click here and enter the offer code WINDOWS. That way Paul and Mary Jo get credit for it. Podcast listeners click at the top of the page that microphone there and do enter the offer code WINDOWS so that they know you heard it on Windows Weekly. Choose your industry too because Sharefile is Hippa compliant, compliant with regulations of many industries including the financial services industry. So if you pick the right industry they’ll fill you in on all of that as well. – 30 days free, you’ve got to try it. I’m telling you, saved my life. Paul Thurott and Mary Jo Foley, they are talking Windows and it is time for the back of the book. I like to call it the best part. This is the tip of the week.

Paul: As I do occasionally because these videos come out occasionally I guess – I’m just reminding people that it is free and easy to learn how to develop apps for Windows phone 8.1 now thanks to the fact that Microsoft developer tools are free and that Microsoft puts out a new version of its jumpstart video series apps for Windows phone every time there’s a new version. So Andrew and Matthias recorded the new 2 day session which comes out to 23 videos. It’s an amazing series and it will teach you everything you need to know to develop apps for Windows phone 8.1. Kind of a side tip to this is in the past if you wanted to get the free developer tools for Windows phone you would get something called visual studio express for Windows phone. There are separate express versions for Web, Windows desktop. With this version now you actually get the version for Windows because the Windows version will do Windows and Phone apps as well as those universal apps that run on both. So that’s kind of a neat thing but it’s also a different from the way things worked before. Just another side tip related to Windows Phone 8.1 – just today they announced that there was a new update for people who had down loaded Windows 8.1 developer preview.

Leo: That’s me.

Paul: I just got my daughters phone updating actually. Just to be clear about everything. Windows phone 8.1 has RTM. It is the final version. Microsoft told us when I can’t remember…

Mary Jo: I think it was in April at Build.

Paul: That there would be post RTM fixes which occur actually pretty regularly and then of course as these things go publically via your wireless carrier that wireless carrier will add apps to it sometime your handset maker will add firmware and driver updates and apps of their own and there’s all this other stuff that can get attached onto it. In the past this is the first major version of the OS where we’ve been able to get this OS right away and so we’ve never seen these post RTM fixes arrive but here’s an example of one. No new features but bug fixes and battery life improvements. Some people who’ve installed the update have noticed the battery life has been less so hopefully that will mitigate that issue for you.

Leo: Cool.

Paul: I actually have 3 software picks but I can rattle these off pretty quickly. Actually that one should have been a tip. Windows store on Windows 8.1 – actually I think it’s Windows 8.1 but we’ll says Windows 8.1 with update 1 has something we’ve never seen before which is sort of an auto band update if you will to the Windows store app itself. If you think about how Windows works now with all these mobile apps we have Microsoft can on any day at any time update any of those apps; the mail app, the calendar app, the Xbox music app or whatever. Those app updates go through the store so how does the store app get updated? In the past we only got a new version of the store app with the version of the operating system. So Windows 8 came with one, Windows 8.1 came with the last one. This is the first time we’ve ever seen the Windows store app updated outside of that schedule and the way that it gets updated oddly enough is through Windows update. It was one of the Patch Tuesday updates. There are a lot of apps in Windows 8.1 in particular that I really like. Windows store has never been one of those apps but this update improves this app dramatically. I never felt like they got it right, especially the first version was terrible. The 8.1 version was ok but I think this is the first one where they’ve kind of made the store app actually usable and attractive and I think denser with stuff. Because it always seemed like this gigantic thing with just a few tiles on it. Anyway if you just go through your normal Windows update process you’ll get that. So that’s available. Visual Studio 2013 has RTM’d and what that means to you is that’s what enables you to get among other things Universal app abilities in Visual Studio. So if you want to develop apps, if you want to make a solution that has projects for both Windows phone 8.1 and Windows 8.1 you need update 2 for Visual Studio 2013. When I was talking about those free tools that are available the new express version of Visual Studio for Windows has update 2 as part of it. That’s what you need to do the Universal App stuff. Finally I’ve not even installed this but I just wanted to throw it out because I know a lot of people are Spotify users – after months and months of delays Spotify has finally updated its Windows phone app. This works on Windows phone 8 and on Windows phone 8.1. It’s much nicer looking, it has a bunch of features that have been available in Spotify everywhere else in the world for months but we finally get them now on Spotify radio recommendation and discovery options and all that kind of stuff. So if you are a Spotify subscriber and a Windows phone user you have no need to be embarrassed anymore.

Leo: Don’t be put off by their reviews because these are from the previous version. Constantly crashes, songs won’t play, terrible app.

Paul: When the Spotify app first appeared I want to say last year honestly for the day it wasn’t a bad looking app but for that problem that we see so often on Windows phone in that it just didn’t get updated. So as the service improved the app was increasingly out of date and actually I think some of the service improvements made the app not work properly as well. So it’s nice to see this thing get updated. I’ve already moved on, I did use Spotify for a while but I use Xbox music now.

Leo: Is that common in the Windows phone store that they - you know on IOS they’ll say this review is for a previous version…

Paul: So what you’re asking me is if the Windows phone guys are not as sophisticated as the IOS guys in some ways. I think I would have to say yes.

Leo: It’s got to be frustrating for Spotify because 2 weeks ago they updated this App on the 13th but they’ve still got review for the crappy app.

Paul: I think in this one case we could blame Spotify for taking so long to update it.

Leo: Yes, but they should say these are reviews for the previous version.

Paul: They should segregate them out in some way.

Leo: Most other stores do that.

Paul: By the way I think why you don’t see any reviews for the new version is that Microsoft broke that capability in the store.

Leo: Yes because I don’t see any reviews since the 1st. Software pick of the week; now we move to Mary Jo Foley. She is out on Prim gal.

Mary Jo: I am, I’m on Prim.

Leo: She’s on Prim in Houston.

Paul: On Prim only.

Leo: And she has an enterprise rumor. This is a little new.

Mary Jo: I decided to mix it up because so many of our previous items on the show today were enterprise picks. I’m like let me do a rumor. This is an interesting one I heard in the halls of Houston here. I mentioned earlier that some of the people who are at the show are not happy because Microsoft only talked Cloud and did not talk on Prim. The rumor is that Microsoft will be talking about on Prim development for the IT pros but not until Tech Ed Barcelona which is at the end of October this year. I’ve had a couple people say that’s a weird rumor because why would they do that at Barcelona and why wouldn’t they have done that here. I think it makes a lot of sense because we believe that Microsoft is going to have some of their office – their next generation Office servers – like the next version of Exchange share point link available possibly in public preview around that time. That also is the rumored time for the Gemini apps which are the touch first Word, Excel and PowerPoint apps for Windows 8. That could be a very interesting show if they decide to line those things up and make big announcements around that time. So the rumor is if you’re somebody looking for the on Prim updates for Microsoft you may hear more at the end of October in Barcelona. I’m going to go to Barcelona this year.

Leo: That’s the other good news, now you have a reason to eat paella.

Mary Jo: I know!

Paul: I want to go to Barcelona this year.

Mary Jo: Go, I’m going to go. Put it on your budget.

Leo: Yes, you have to because you didn’t get any on premises material in Houston.

Paul: I have to be on Prim to see the show.

Mary Jo: You do.

Paul: Our readers demand on Prim.

Mary Jo: They do.

Leo: Code name – actually code names of the week.

Mary Jo: This week was a crazy week for Microsoft code names. There were a whole ton of them launched at the show this week and references also to some that we already knew. I’m just going to run through them really quickly – some of the new ones. The one that I’d never heard before this week was Adams. I hear that is the next version of Visual Studio and that is supposedly going to be a new theme for them because they’ve been using numbers for their code names like VS11 VS12 which actually didn’t coincide with the Air - VS11 ended up being Visual Studio 2012 which was super confusing. Now they’re going to go with Mountain Range supposedly and Adams is the first and Baker may be the next after that. So that’s one code name Adams. Another good one to know that I mentioned earlier is Fort Knox. That’s the encryption feature for Office 365 business customers. What else did we learn about? Mohoro was the Azure remote app service and the reason supposedly it was code named Mohoro was that some of the development work on that was done in India and I think it’s the grand Comoros Islands have a town called Mohoro on them. That’s why they called it Mohoro. The last one is project K and it seems like some of the developer division is now using single letter code names at Microsoft which is kind of interesting. We’d already heard about project N which was .netnative. We heard about that at Build and the next version of is code named project K and the K stands for Catana. Catana was kind of like Microsoft’s entry step towards componentizing and so that makes sense with this being project K. I saw some people calling it special K as well but it is project K. So there is your bumper crop of code names for the week. Oh one more – express route which Paul mentioned earlier which is the new networking capability – the hybrid networking capability; that was code named Golden Gate as well.

Leo: Alright.

Mary Jo: Code names for everyone and all.

Leo: Well I guess that leaves only 1 thing to do. Get drunk with the fancy lawnmower.

Mary Jo: Isn’t that a great name.

Leo: Yes.

Mary Jo: The brew pick of the week is Saint Arnold Brewing which is in Houston. Their fancy lawnmower… The fancy lawnmower is a Kolsch beer which is a German style beer. I’m not a giant fan of Kolsch’s but they’re a really good summer beer.

Leo: Because they’re a little citrusy right?

Mary Jo: They are – fruity. I got to drink this this week on tap here in Houston. I actually got to drink a lot of really great Texas beers here while I was here.

Leo: Oh I bet that was fun.

Mary Jo: It was. There are a lot of really good breweries here both in Houston and other parts of Texas. I drank some 512’s from Austin that were really good. That was at our Tweetup yesterday at the Flying Saucer. They also have a really great brewery here called Karbach – if you ever see any of their beers they are fantastic. I had one of the hopiest beers I’ve ever had from them. It was delicious. It was called Hop delusion. It would have cured you Paul. You would have been in Houston if you had drunk that.

Paul: Nice.

Mary Jo: Or maybe not.

Leo: Karbach. Well my friends the time has come for us to say goodbye. Hard to believe but once again we’ve completed another Windows Weekly episode for the week of May 14th. We’ll be back next week the day after the Microsoft announcement. That should be interesting to see what they announce on the 20th. Paul and Mary Jo will be there. Where would you announce a Rattle & Hum meet up? Would you do that on Twitter?

Mary Jo: Yes probably on Twitter.

Paul: The question is a matter of timing but I would think 3-4 in the afternoon.

Leo: Just be there.

Mary Jo: We’ll be there.

Leo: Go to Rattle & Hum and if you’re there at 3 and nobody else is… Get 10 pitchers and just wait. There will be people.

Mary Jo: Yes there will be.

Leo: Maybe bearing a Surface Pro 3, who knows?

Mary Jo: I would love it if we get some hardware to try out but I’m wondering.

Leo: Do they do that typically?

Paul: Actually that’s a good question.

Mary Jo: Last time they didn’t remember. We didn’t get them at the launch of the Surface 2.

Paul: That’s true.

Leo: Well there you have it.

Paul: We’ll at least be able to touch them right. Get our hands on them.

Mary Jo: We can run off with Panos Panay’s Surface.

Paul: Distract him while we run.

Leo: Paul Thurott is at the Super site for Windows – and his book the Windows 8.1 and there are all sorts of other stuff too but it you go to the super site you’ll find it all. It’s all linked there. A great resource for everybody. Mary Jo is at the C: net blog where she breaks news daily and tries to bring the stock price up or down depending on her whim.

Paul: What do I feel like today?

Leo: What do I feel like – up or down? You can watch this show every Wednesday 11 AM Pacific, That’s 2 PM Eastern 1800 UTC. Wednesday at – watch it live but on demand audio and video always made available after the fact at, iTunes or stitcher. What is the pod cast? Well just the podcast app on Windows phone. Of course we have some great apps including Allen’s wonderful Windows phone TWIT app. Those apps make it easy for you to watch anytime day or night. Download files but also watch live so whatever your platform IOS Windows or Android make sure you get the TWIT apps there. One of them will suit and you’ll be able to watch us whenever you want to. Thanks for joining us everybody, we’ll see you next week on Windows Weekly!

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