This Week in Tech Episode 869 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word.
Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for TWiT this week in tech. What a great panel this week, Christina Warren's here. She'll tell us about her brand new job. Wesley. Faulkner's also here from single store. We're gonna also talk to Dan Warren of six colors.com wise cameras they've let us all down. Would you ever buy other wise the lapses gang turns out to be a bunch of you. K school kids, E three, it's all over. And Jack Dorsey apologizes for his role in creating the big, bad internet. It's all coming up next and a whole lot more on TWiTtter

TWiT Intro (00:00:35):
Podcasts.

Leo Laporte (00:00:36):
You

TWiT Intro (00:00:36):
Love from people you trust. This is

Leo Laporte (00:00:40):
To,

Leo Laporte (00:00:50):
This is TWiT this week in tech episode, 869 recorded Sunday, April 3rd, 2022. The kids are all right. This week. Tech is brought to you by our crowd. Our crowd helps accredited investors invest early in pre I P O companies alongside professional venture capitalists. Join the fastest growing venture capital investment community@ourcrowd.com slash TWiT. And by Neva traditional audio conferencing systems can entail lots of components. Installation can take days and you might not get the mic coverage you need. That's complex expensive, but Reva audio is easy to install and manage no technicians required and you get true full room coverage. Now that's easy. Economical. Learn more@neva.com and by wealth front to start building your wealth and get your first $5,000 managed free for life. Go to wealthfront.com/TWiT and by podium. Join more than 100,000 businesses that already use podium to streamline their customer Interac. Get started for free at podium.com/TWiT or sign up for a paid podium account and get a free credit card reader. Restrictions apply It's time for TWiT this week at tech to show where we cover the week's tech news. Got a great panel, gonna be fun today. Dan Warren's here from colors.com science fiction, author D mor.com. You got a new novel coming out in June. Is this a continuation of the series or you gotta start a new series?

Dan Moren (00:02:34):
No, this one's a continuation. This is book three in the current series. I'm super excited to have a book three in this series. It's always nice when

Leo Laporte (00:02:41):
Another one pops cold war series.

Dan Moren (00:02:44):
Yeah, that's right. I'm very excited. July 22nd. Gosh, I should know that. Shouldn't I?

Leo Laporte (00:02:50):
No, no, that's good. You don't need to know it. We need to know it so we can get it. Actually. It's cool because like any good programmer you started with book zero.

Dan Moren (00:02:59):
Sure. Yeah. Boy. Well, you don't want, you wanna void those off by one errors. Yes,

Leo Laporte (00:03:04):
Exactly. Yeah. Although the, where you are 0.5 is throwing me a little bit here, but so it's a array of floats, I guess. I don't know, 1.5. So when you say third book, it isn't really isn't, you've got one. Yeah,

Dan Moren (00:03:17):
There's a whole complicated story behind that. I switched publishers basically as the, the short version. And so we we moved on and so book, what was originally book two became book one in the new series. So I'm yeah, I kind of try to stick with that, but it's a people ask a

Leo Laporte (00:03:32):
Lot on the front. It says the galactical war book three. That's all. So we're going

Dan Moren (00:03:37):
With that

Leo Laporte (00:03:38):
Go with, with that babe, be can't wait, can't wait. I like series, I have to say I really enjoy series I'm in the middle of the Baba verse right now, which is, oh yeah, it was kind of fun series and it's nice because it, I don't know, sci-fi lends itself to serialization I guess, and get a chance to

Dan Moren (00:03:58):
Really develop some themes. I think it's a same reason, like TV should, you know, it's the golden age of TV, right? Like people like that sort of long form storytelling. And I think a series of books is the closest. You can kind of get to that in the, in the literature world too. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:04:10):
I think we're learning that it's better to develop a character over a longer period of time. Speaking of characters, Christine Warren and Christina, Warren's here brand new job for a film girl now a senior dev advocate at GitHub. Yay.

Christina Warren (00:04:25):
Neat. Yes. Yes.

Leo Laporte (00:04:27):
Congratulations. Thank

Christina Warren (00:04:28):
You so much. I really appreciate it. I'm really, really excited. Isn't

Leo Laporte (00:04:32):
I a new job though? I mean, Microsoft owns GitHub. Okay.

Christina Warren (00:04:35):
So, so, so this is a common thing. This has come up a lot. And, and I've kind of tried to joke about online. I'm like it's people like you were being so dramatic. You, you, you, you know, were saying you're leaving Microsoft and like you went down the street granted maybe a little dramatic it's kind of like, like, like shirting, like Microsoft, like depending on like, you know, like what you look at the box, is it, or is it not? Because here here's the situation, obviously. Yes. Microsoft is the parent company, but it's, it's run independently. So there's a different email system. I have a different payroll system. I have different health benefits. Right. You know, like different,

Leo Laporte (00:05:09):
It's

Christina Warren (00:05:10):
Pretty independent badge. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:05:11):
Will you be talking to the same people? They sort of developers all you.

Christina Warren (00:05:17):
Yeah. I mean, yeah, exactly. So, I mean, it's a similar audience, but it's a little bit broader. Whereas like with Microsoft, I was working for Azure the, the Azure side and, and I was focusing on Linux and, and so I wasn't, and, and I never, I think no one on, on that team's purview has only been to target, you know, Azure users wanting to target all developers, but you know, hoping that they might find reasons to, to use Azure. Whereas GitHub, it's a lot more broad. It's like, it doesn't matter, you know, like what, what cloud you're on or if you're self hosting or what the situation is, it's about, you know, creating the best tools and experiences and community for developers.

Leo Laporte (00:05:53):
I'm a huge GitHub fan. Use it all the time. So this is great. I'm excited for you. I think it's a perfect, you so much. I'm so glad you're there.

Christina Warren (00:06:02):
Yeah, no, I'm super excited and, and I feel like it's a really great fit too. So it's because it, it brings in a lot of the things that I've, I've loved over the years and, and the strong community component is something that, that I'm really, really psyched about.

Leo Laporte (00:06:14):
We also have Wesley Falkner on the panel. It's always great to see Wesley head of community at single store. It's good to see how's everything going, Wesley, you're wearing your blue blockers. That's good. Gotta protect the eyes.

Wesley Faulkner (00:06:27):
Yeah. I talked about how like, life is challenging, but there's still like some, some highlights. The, just got back from the TWiTn cities the mall of America celebrating my daughter's birthday.

Leo Laporte (00:06:40):
Is that where she wanted to go for birthday? The mall America? Yes.

Wesley Faulkner (00:06:43):
That's she wanted to go, we, we spent the night fancy hotel. She loves pools. And we went on rides and roller coasters. Got her a couple purses and some clothes. Yeah. That's that's, that was her choice and she enjoyed it so much. And how old is she? Great. I, I, I am reluctant to say, to put it out there, but, but

Leo Laporte (00:07:05):
She's not 30. That's my daughter's birthday. No, no, she's a couple

Wesley Faulkner (00:07:08):
Of edits. I'll just say that she she's younger than eight and older than six. I think

Leo Laporte (00:07:12):
Abby would've okay. I'll let you do Matt. That's good. Okay. That's the narrows it down. No, Abby's 30. And she did not want to go to the mall of America, but then she asked maybe when she was about that age, we went to the American girl doll museum in Chicago.

Christina Warren (00:07:29):
Oh yeah. Okay. That would've yeah, I would've been into that. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's pretty great, but I would've been in Tamal of America too. That's awesome.

Leo Laporte (00:07:35):
Yeah, no, they're both good, honestly, but she, she had cut all the hair off of one of her American girl dolls. So we had to pay a visit to the hospital where they put new hair in. Oh, oh

Christina Warren (00:07:45):
Yes. Oh yeah. I, I, I remember this. So I used to get the catalogs cuz it was like, it was like the pleasant company and then it was the American girl company or whatever exactly. They used to send the big catalogs and in the back they would have a thing. Like if you had to send your doll at the doll hospital and, and mine, I, I took care of it, but my neighbors, we had all four of the original ones, but between us, one of them had some sort of problem and the doll came back. I'll never forget. It came back like in a hospital gown and with like a it's all size, like get well balloon. It is pretty great.

Leo Laporte (00:08:15):
We also, they have a tea room there where you have chairs for big people and they have little chairs for the dolls and they serve tea to the dolls somewhere. I have a picture of me sitting there and then afterwards we went to Chicago Cubs game and I got to hold the doll. 

Christina Warren (00:08:32):
Yes,

Leo Laporte (00:08:33):
It was it was her and her best friend and her best friend's dad. It was quite an out outing. I'll never forget it. That's

Wesley Faulkner (00:08:38):
Sweet.

Leo Laporte (00:08:39):
Yeah. And actually I'm glad

Wesley Faulkner (00:08:40):
There is a, there, there is a build bear in the mall of America. That's that's and that line was always around the corner. That's so funny the whole time. That's

Leo Laporte (00:08:49):
So funny. Wow. What we do for our kids. Right? Anything, anything? Do you have kids, Dan? You don't have kids.

Dan Moren (00:08:59):
I do not currently. No,

Leo Laporte (00:09:00):
No. Most science fiction authors in fact are single. No,

Dan Moren (00:09:06):
I'm just kidding. I am married. That's all right, come

Leo Laporte (00:09:08):
On. I'm just teasing. It's just a joke. Don't take no, I'm just kidding. Boy, I was a little upset with, with wise this week, w Y Z I've been recommending their cameras. I thought they were the best thing ever up your way, Christina and Seattle because they were selling what would normally be very expensive cameras and other electronic products for remarkably low prices like 20 and $30. And they were good stuff. They sell now. Sprinkler controllers and noise, canceling headphones and earbuds, but it was the wise cam. Number one, that was the amazing first product turns out. It was hackable for three years. They did nothing about it. They tell anybody, they knew that that hackers could remotely access your camera without a much fanfare. Earlier this year, they discontinued it without a full ex explanation. Eventually they sent out a, a little note to wise cam version one owner saying, Hey friends, it's an new year that comes with some important updates protecting you and your security. Always top of mind for us to do that, we'll need you to update your wise app, update your camera firmware. And oh, by the way, if it's version one, throw it out. No, they don't say that, but that's what you should do. Because there are no updates version. Now there is some debate over how hackable it was, but hackable at all. And if it's known to the company and they don't tell you is a big deal,

Wesley Faulkner (00:10:49):
I didn't know if it was debatable, but it, they did say that it wasn't just inter intercepting the stream, but actually reading the memory car. Yes. and so when you have the trigger set up where it only triggers useful events, that's way more of a pot of interesting information, rather than just tapping into a random webcam.

Leo Laporte (00:11:12):
It's everything. The camera is recorded,

Dan Moren (00:11:14):
Specifically. Things that trigger it, which are the things that people wanna see, right? Nobody's people aren't combing through hours and hours of footage to try and find like, oh, now I found the like one minute in this footage. That's interesting. They're getting the, the highlight reel.

Leo Laporte (00:11:27):
Now I first became aware of it with Sean Hollister's article in the verge I'm done with wise, I'm throwing them all out. And he got a little bit wrong. Why reached out to tell him that there was subs? Well, basically security through OB security in order for the attack to work. It had needed initial camera ID, which is a non predictable string that could only be acquired if you're on the same network as the device. So hackers would have to camp outside, get into your wifi for instance, and see it that way, or perhaps get into your house, but it doesn't eliminate the evil made attack. And I don't care. Vulnerable is vulnerable. And I mean, how, how, I guess this is an interesting question. How much Christina, how much should we hold wise to the feets, to the fire for this?

Christina Warren (00:12:20):
I mean, I think that if, look, if you make the decision that you are not going to update a product for whatever reason that's one thing. And, and I think that that, especially given what type of product this is, that, that that's customers should probably look at it and be like, okay, well, I'm never going to buy anything from you again, if this is how you do it. But the fact that like, it seems like they waited so long three years or even three years before even alerting people. That to me, like when, you know, that's the unacceptable part, if you don't want, if you don't have the money or the time of the resources or, or the, the engineering talent or whatever the case may be to update eight year old product fine, that's we can critique that. But, but whatever, but, but to not even bother to let people know, Hey, this security device, which you are selling us a security device that is capturing pretty sensitive information, has vulnerabilities where people could take over it and could do things to it. And you're not telling anyone that's not that that not, that's not acceptable at all. I think we should definitely hold their feet to the fire.

Leo Laporte (00:13:16):
There is also questions about bit defender because they learned about this vulnerability in March of 2019, notified wise, normally with a security company, there's a responsible disclosure agreement where you wait a certain amount of I'm usually three months. And if the company doesn't fix it, you then disclose it because it's only amount of time before hackers discovered if bit defender could have discovered it for some reason, bit defender decided not to do that. And so I'm, I'm not bit to fenders. PR director told the verge, our findings were so serious. Our decision, regardless of our, usually 90 day with grace period extensions policy was that publishing this report without Wise's acknowledgement and mitigation was gonna expose potentially millions of customers with unknown implications. Oh God, that's hard. Since the vendor didn't have. Yeah. As far as we knew a security process, we just delayed publishing and I, you know, that's one of the arguments for never disclosing, but at the same time, it's, if you could find a bit defender couldn't. Yeah.

Dan Moren (00:14:32):
I think it's also interesting that like, as they point out wise, didn't seem to have a security framework in place, which is a strange decision for a company that's, you know, making smart home tech, right. We all know that smart home tech is a big vector for, for cyber attack. So it feels like you would have this in place and I can't help, but think, you know, the, sort of the fact that wise has been able to sell these devices at such a low cost. And generally we had felt previously like good quality, but it makes you think, well, there are corners perhaps being cut here or there, and it feels maybe a little fly by night at times

Leo Laporte (00:15:08):
It's puzzling to me, I have to say

Wesley Faulkner (00:15:11):
The, the, the wise their whole deal, especially with the wise camera one was that they didn't make any of the hardware. They got cheap hardware from Chinese manufacturers. And only thing that they did was the software. So they wrote their own software. And so knowing that they were, are willing to wash their hands of at least that part is almost like, what, what is their expertise at that point? Because they, they are just now just passing on just the cheap, like the stereotypical cheap Chinese knockoff hardware stuff, where it could be really, really like hacked or not done in a way that it was secure. And so now knowing that they are in themselves, like at least at that point in time did not do all the safeguards needed to really protect their users and make sure that things were done at the high quality that they claimed. It's almost like, I wish that they had, at that point of time been outed and they, that most likely that would've killed the company, sadly, but now these, these cameras are everywhere and people have them set up and people are relying on them. And this, this, this specific article, even though now it's wildly released, how many of those cameras will hear about this, right? The people who are operating these cameras. And so they probably would not have had them if this came out three years ago

Leo Laporte (00:16:43):
Should so I, I feel bad cuz I've been telling people for many years to buy wise cameras back to those $20 version one cameras, we even have a few is this bad enough that you don't recommend wise ever again because you know, clearly they don't care about security or is this a mistake that could easily be made by a new young company? They decided because you'd have to have access to the network. It wasn't that big a deal. I mean, we disclose lots of flaws that require F access to the machine. That's it still should be disclosed.

Dan Moren (00:17:16):
Well, yeah. I mean, and, and deciding that it's not making the decision for your customers, that it's not that big a deal strikes me as the thing that kind of feels uncomfortable, right? Like that should be up to the owners of these cameras to decide whether or not that's an acceptable level of risk. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:17:31):
I never wanted not telling them the company if they announce it and say, and I guess wise didn't have a way to push updates, but they could have sent, you know, they could have said down, you know, take that mini SD card, copy this file to it. Maybe they had no way to update it. I don't know. It's

Dan Moren (00:17:47):
It's also just like software. Yeah. Yeah. I mean every software company as to your point, Leo, about like, you know, places not holding it against companies like every software company has flaws happen every single one, right. It's never not gonna be a case. So it's all in how you handle it.

Leo Laporte (00:18:05):
And, and of course this underscores the very good in vice Stacy Higginbotham on her TWiTg show gives she's an I OT expert and many others do not buy an IOT device that doesn't have a security framework that doesn't have a way that patches can be applied, especially ideally pushed to the device. And Google's nest cameras. They can patches they'd have the ring doorbell, they can push patches. They have stuff happens, mistakes happen, but, but ideally the company should be able to repair that device even if you're not paying attention. And apparently wise did not, I don't know what their current situation is. 

Christina Warren (00:18:50):
I, I mean, I think the fact that it was three years, I mean, for me personally, I would say that this becomes like a deal breaker, right? Like, like if you wanted to say three months, six months, we're investigating, we're trying to figure this out, given the severity of what this is. We don't want someone to create a zero day sort of click and, and, and whatever thing, cuz if, if someone's local, you know, it was exposed to the open internet, which, which some people as configurations might be, you know, that could be a problem, whatever. I, I would still have a problem with this, but I could be more sympathetic, new company and whatnot. But this number of years of that's a long, a long time, this is a long time when, when you're now on, on like, what version are they on, on other products on version four,

Leo Laporte (00:19:25):
Version three, I think, yeah. Version

Christina Warren (00:19:27):
Three, you know, so you you've released subsequent products that don't have this issue. And in, in their own explanation of this, they said, okay, well the, the, the, the small memory amount, which was the whole reason we had to go to, to version two, this is why we haven't been able to update version one. Okay, well, if you know this, and if you're running into this issue, then that means you need to alert people in my opinion, then, and there you need to say, Hey, this is problem. This can't be updated. This has a vulnerability, and you need to offer some sort of trade in and you need to offer some sort of amount of credit if you don't like a, a, a Goodwill thing that says, okay, here's, you know, like, like $50 off you know, a, a, a version two or something, right?

Christina Warren (00:20:06):
Like, or at the very least, because they are a low price point. If people wanna get and mad, then they could have that say, okay, well, I was only spending, you know, $20 a pop on these things fine, but let, you gotta let people know. And the fact that you didn't, and, and as, as you know more of these things might be on the market that, that just becomes to me, I, I don't think I could ever in good conscience recommend this again. Not the least without like a, a very full, a complete security audit of their framework and also of what, what devices they are you know bringing in what, what, what

Leo Laporte (00:20:41):
ODS, that's a good idea. They're bringing a third party and do a vulnerability. And, and, you know, they do have a, a wholePage@wise.com and how to record report a security vulnerability. And, you know, presumably the newer devices have enough memory to do an update and things like that. I guess maybe there's a secondary moral, which is you shouldn't pay $20 for a camera and expect it to be secure, get what you pay for. Yeah.

Christina Warren (00:21:06):
Right. I mean, and, and, and I think to me that almost is, is on the one hand, I think that makes a lot of common sense. I think the reason why this is troubling is because this was a company that their whole, you know, raise on Etro was to say, we can sell it at these cut rate prices, but we're not skimping on the software. We're actually taking that seriously. We're, we're, we're doing this. Right. So their, their entire sales pitch was basically, yes, we're, we're the, you know, the Chinese knockoff price, but like, we're actually doing, doing real work on the software end. And it turns out that's just not true, at least based on what we've seen. I mean, on the very least from the security standpoint you know, if, if you're going three years without even letting people know that there's this vulnerability I

Wesley Faulkner (00:21:51):
Don't know. And I just, I wanna stress that the issue, I think if I remember, if I read correctly, was that it's the web server making or exposing the, the mounted drive to the web. And so from, from, from my modest opinion, I feel that this is something we're, or they could have fixed it, but they chose not to fix it. So I'm gonna, I, I'm gonna be very, very skeptical about them saying that they could not fix this. I don't think that they've gone through the trouble to fix it. And it probably would've been a lot of rewrite in order to make sure that that does work, but I wanted to stress it. I don't think the issue is that they could not have it and keep in mind the same time, three years ago, they were releasing all the products that you just showed when you showed wise and the headphones, the, the,

Leo Laporte (00:22:37):
They kinda gun safe now, whatever that's great.

Wesley Faulkner (00:22:39):
Yeah. Vacuum, cleaners, whatever, all that stuff that they're accelerating, which they are choosing to ignore or push this off instead of actually fixing. Yeah. So that was a constant choice of where they put their resources

Leo Laporte (00:22:51):
Founded by former Amazon employees. I don't know. We'll see how they I think they're gonna, they're gonna need to do as zoom did and others have done kind of Maya culpa and step forward and say, look, this is what we're doing. So this can't happen again before we can trust them, you know,

Christina Warren (00:23:12):
To absolutely. Or, or even, I mean, it's interesting because I look at this and I'm like, if the CU feels, remember the issue that Western digital had last year where some of their old connected drives that hadn't been updated and had been end of life for years, people were able to remotely wipe them because they were connected to the internet. Right.

Christina Warren (00:23:28):
Do you remember that? Yeah. And it was, it was, it was terrible situation. It was a huge black mark for a big company like Western digital. And I thought that they'd handled it fairly poorly, to be honest with you, but at least they were going out of their way. Once it became clear how bad it was to instruct everyone unplug these things from the internet. Like to me, in addition to having to do, I think like the, the full, like, you know, zoom, you know, apology tour, they need to be doing a bunch better job getting the word out because it's not like they don't have everyone's email cuz cuz the whole point way how these companies work. And one of the reasons they can get the, the economies of scale somewhat the way that they are like, although I bet they're losing a bunch of money on this anyway is by, by, you know, getting every single bit of information from all their purchasers and, and selling that. So it's not like they don't have the emails of everyone who bought one of these things. So, you know, why are you not emailing people loud and clear saying, take this off the internet.

Wesley Faulkner (00:24:20):
You don't even need the email. You have to have, you have to use the app in order to view the camera. You push the end.

Christina Warren (00:24:26):
Oh yeah. You could just, you should just push, push and updates to that. Absolutely.

Wesley Faulkner (00:24:29):
Yeah. And have a big red banner. Hey, I noticed you're still using a V1 I'm I've turned it. I've de configured it and took it off the internet for you. Please read more, click this line. They

Leo Laporte (00:24:40):
Actually did that. Same year, a few months later they were, they said OS somebody got our server information and I think 12 million records were leaked. So we're just gonna reset you right now and you're gonna have to change the password. I mean, so they, they have a history of oops and fixing it. This was the OS and not fixing it and not even admitting it, which really bugs the heck outta me. I mean, I'm so sorry. You can, you should write, you should write, you should take this story and, and write your story and make your apologies. I just hate it when they just no, no, no pay, pay, no attention on that. Pay no attention. Oh, speaking of hacking we now know that lapse us bunch of 16 year olds.

Christina Warren (00:25:29):
I yes. Which I love, I love. And, and I, I have to give him huge credit because my favorite 16 year old, I I'm kidding. He's he's not 16 he's actually, but he's been a reporter since he was 16 Williams hurt at Bloomberg was one of the people who helped really crack that down. We

Leo Laporte (00:25:44):
Saw his scoop he's I didn't realize he had already, when he was 16. That's very

Christina Warren (00:25:48):
Interesting. Yeah. No, well this, this is what I was he, and he's one of the best security reporters and that's awesome in this beat. He's fantastic. Yeah. When, when I, so he worked at the daily dot with my husband years and years and years ago when, again, he was like 16. And then when we hired him at Gizmoto, he was still in high school. So he was a senior in high school and he would like have to, he would be on slack. He was like, okay, I've gotta, I gotta go. I gotta take a test. And then he'd come back like 45 minutes later and, and blog. Wow. Just an incredible reporter. But I, I, I was joking with him. I was like, so I see you can still get your friends, you know, to, to, to give you scoops. But yeah, a bunch of 16 year olds terrifying, but also, I mean, I guess the kids are all right. I don't know.

Leo Laporte (00:26:32):
They the kids are all right in one way, they're gonna be able to get jobs. Let's put it that way. LA's first laps, U S dollar sign, which tells you a little bit about their motivations. First surfaced, December of 2021 with an extortion demand on Brazil's ministry of health. I think as I remember, they released a bunch of records there. They broke in Invidia released source code from Invidia. They broke into Samsung, they broke into Vodafone, they broke into micro or at least the source code for a bunch of Microsoft pro products, including teams. And I think windows as well, although Microsoft said they had disrupted the download before it could finish, so they didn't get all of, all of it. And then maybe most notoriously, they were the group that broke into Okta. OK. As they didn't get very far.

Leo Laporte (00:27:24):
Yeah. But that's a big one because it's a security firm. That's used by many other companies for you know, single sign on, in their security. So we're starting to learn a little bit more. Okta was two teenagers, 16 and 17 in the UK. They both been released on bail. Cuz what are you gonna do? Right. both teenagers charged with three counts of unauthorized access with intent to appear operation of or hinder access to a computer to accounts of two counts of fraud by false representation. I'll explain why that those are the charges. The, the father of the 16 year old said, we just thought he in the basement playing games, we were shocked. I say shocked to find out obviously fairly, fairly skilled around the same time as news that the arrests emerged according to the BBC lapses told its 45,000 followers on telegram that some of its members would be taking a V on Wednesday. They started posting again after the arrest, releasing stolen material from a software development company in Argentina.

Leo Laporte (00:28:38):
So the kids are all right. I like that. Lapses did this same thing as the solar wind hackers breaking through two factor in a couple of interesting ways. One of the ways of course, two factor works and this is very popular. Microsoft uses it. Github uses it now, by the way, I noticed one often, yeah. Where it sends a, a push to your phone and you approve and it logs in. So one of the tricks is called MFA bombing multifactor bombing, where you just keep ha hitting it so that the, the victim keeps getting popups over and over saying, you approved you approve. And finally just says, oh, screw it. I approve.

Leo Laporte (00:29:26):
And apparently that works. There is also a sort of a slow motion MFA bombing where you do one or two prompts a day, but apparently there's still a good chance. According to a red team hacker that was talking to a Technica that people will still say, yeah, yeah, you can also call the target. This is more of a social, this is probably where they got the charge of impersonation. It's sort of a social attack, pretending you call the target saying, Hey, I'm with GitHub. Christina I'm just, I need to say you and MFA, make sure we're all in set up. So just, I'm gonna send you an MFA just to prove it. Okay. We'll just make sure that your, your single sign-ons working and, you know, Christina, you're new at the company. Right? You think that, okay? Yeah, sure. I'll wait. Oh yeah. I see it. Thank you. And you hit, okay. M bombing. It works kids in fact, lapses, of course, did not invent this. It's been going on for some time, but there you go. Don't even two factor is not necessarily enough to protect you against

Wesley Faulkner (00:30:37):
It makes me wonder if there was no pandemic. Would we be talking about this?

Leo Laporte (00:30:44):
He should have been studying social studies instead. He was hacking Brazil. Is that what you think?

Wesley Faulkner (00:30:50):
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of time in the basement, right? So

Dan Moren (00:30:55):
I don't know. I mean, there's a, even outside the pandemic, even outside the pandemic, I remember being a teenager like in the nineties and like being a online, my parents had no idea what I was doing.

Leo Laporte (00:31:04):
They don't know what you're doing

Dan Moren (00:31:05):
With, with a 2,400 modem. How much trouble can you really get up to?

Wesley Faulkner (00:31:09):
Probably, but, but the time where you're at school, where like, oh, I can't wait to get home to try this. Now you're at home all the time. Like what's stopping you totally.

Leo Laporte (00:31:17):
According now this is a daily mail. So consider this source, according to daily mail, he's autistic and enrolled in a special ed school in Oxford. His father told the BBC, my son is very good on computers. But you know, if he's autistic, maybe he doesn't really think of the consequences. He just says, oh, this is cool. What I can do. Look what, look what I can do. And maybe he, somebody else, mother kids took advantage of his skills. Seven suspects were arrested. The father who the kid lives with his mother, the father who does not live with him, says I had never heard about this until recently. He never talked about hacking, but he's very good on computers spends a lot of time on the computer. I always thought he was playing games. We're gonna try and stop him from going on computers from that one

Wesley Faulkner (00:32:07):
As a person who is newer to diversion myself, I would say most likely being autistic would not prevent you from understanding the severity of the

Leo Laporte (00:32:15):
Issue. He knew what he was doing. 

Wesley Faulkner (00:32:16):
It absolutely,

Leo Laporte (00:32:17):
He might make likely victim though, of others. Yes.

Wesley Faulkner (00:32:19):
But it, what it could be is that you might have issues with social structures and cues. Right. And if this was a defined way that was spoken about before, where you can get cred with your peer group, ah, then that might be makes you vulnerable incentive to yeah. Probably do this type of

Leo Laporte (00:32:39):
Yes. Well, the kids are all right. That's the motto today for this segment of the show. Thank you, Christina. Let's take a little break. Christina Warren is here now, senior dev advocate for the lovely GitHub. Woohoo. You know, when Microsoft bought kit hub, I was like, oh bummer. But they've really been, you know, great. They're, they're, they're good stewards in the sense they like GitHub do what GitHub's doing, support it. I think GitHub's bigger and better than ever to be honest with you. Right?

Christina Warren (00:33:10):
Yeah. I mean, I, I think so. Definitely. I mean, I, I wouldn't have joined otherwise, but yeah, totally. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:33:15):
You were saying something interesting. Wesley, you said that what, how many developers don't use any version control at all?

Wesley Faulkner (00:33:24):
I think around 30%. Wow. Or so like a third close to

Leo Laporte (00:33:27):
It. Wow. They can't be working on teams though. Right? I mean you kind of have to use version control if you're working on a distributed team. I mean,

Wesley Faulkner (00:33:35):
Yeah. There's, I mean, keep in mind that developers are all around the world, different types of infrastructures, different types of work.

Leo Laporte (00:33:42):
Maybe some companies construction don't want them to, you know, check their code in anywhere. Just keep it on your hard drive. I don't know.

Wesley Faulkner (00:33:51):
It's

Leo Laporte (00:33:51):
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I do use it for everything. Dan, do you use it? What do you do? You do version control for your novels?

Dan Moren (00:33:58):
I do not. Other than things have sort of auto save. I've seen people who do though. I've seen people who keep their writing in GitHub repositories. It's not very

Leo Laporte (00:34:05):
Early on when Gina and I wrote our first book, Gina Smith. And I wrote our first book in 96 or seven. There was no get, get at the time, but there was SVN. Yeah. And we really looked at using SVN because we were both writing so that you would in your, your edits and, and it's actually a great idea. If you have multiple authors, I guess if you're a single author, you don't need it so much, but

Dan Moren (00:34:27):
No, not as much. It's

Leo Laporte (00:34:28):
True. Yeah.

Christina Warren (00:34:30):
And for years, what I've wanted, Dan's not single for years. What I've wanted is I've wanted like

Leo Laporte (00:34:35):
You're all alone. Right? Dan? So you don't need versions.

Dan Moren (00:34:38):
I'm sorry. I don't need to manage anything.

Leo Laporte (00:34:41):
Go ahead, Christina.

Christina Warren (00:34:43):
No, what I was gonna say for years, what I wanted is I, I wanted like words to have like a, a get based. Yes. Like editing flow tracking. Right? Cause tracking changes. You can do a number of things, but it's not quite the same thing. Like I would really love to be able to just look at like the, the XML structure, you know, of whatever makes of a acumen or PowerPoint or anything like that. And be able to, to, you know, approve and dismiss and like treat it, like, get like that to me would be the greatest

Leo Laporte (00:35:09):
Thing. And if you don't use GI, you don't have my favorite command get blame.

Christina Warren (00:35:15):
Yes.

Leo Laporte (00:35:17):
It's really important to be able, even if you're blaming yourself, why did I change that guy's name? Arba not, that was a, I wanna revert our show today. Brought to you by our crowd. A lot of us sit and watch the tech world go by and think I knew that company was gonna be big. I wish I had invested it in it early on. And then we, we, some of us see our peers, people like Kevin Rose, who has the humble brag. Yeah. I got in on TWiTtter early. I was in on the angel round. And you think, boy, how do you, how do you get that kind of information? How well our crowd is one way to do this. This is why I was very in trust. When they came to us, I said, this, I like this. Now I have to say right up front you, this is for the, you know, when you've, you've done all the right investing.

Leo Laporte (00:36:05):
And now you're thinking I would like to do something that's a little more high risk, but a little more high reward. I would like to get into venture capital. So our crowd is a venture capital company that as deal flows, when you join our crowd, you join the fastest growing venture capital investment community. What are they looking for? Not post IPOs, not post exit. They're looking for the very earliest startups. That's the place where you can leverage so much. You can get in with a small amount of money and get so much value. If you're very early at Facebook or TWiTtter, one of these companies that's when you get the maximum returns, our crowd is constantly analyzing companies across the entire global private market. Okay. Before, before public and they look at companies, they're looking for those with the greatest growth potential. When they find them, they bring them to you in all kinds of areas, personalized medicine, cyber security.

Leo Laporte (00:37:02):
Right now they're very big on higher education. Three students are right now losing 3.8 billion in earnings every year by dropping out our crowd is identifying innovators. So you can invest with growth. Potential is the greatest early on. Now I should be very clear. You have to be an accredited investor to do this. Now. Different countries have different rules, by the way, it's completely free to join our crowd. Our crowd.com/TWiT our crowd. Get it.com/TWiT and say what country you're in. And I'll explain what the minimums are in terms of income to make yourself an accredited investor. Already accredited investors at outra have invested over a billion dollars in growing tech companies in the portfolio 21 unicorns, many out crowd members have benefited from over 40 exits IPOs or sales of portfolio companies. If you're an accredited investor, you can get involved in a single company as little as $10,000.

Leo Laporte (00:38:00):
You don't have to have millions to invest. If you want, they have funds too, where they combine a bunch of different investments. You can get in an hour crowd fund for as little as $50,000. But again, you have to be an accredited investor. And the minimum investment is $10,000. So this may not be for everybody but do go to hour crowd.com/and enter, you know, the, the country you're from. So you can then find out whether you can participate. One of the things we were talking about education that our crowd is really liking right now is EDU nav. They have patented technology that uses machine learning and combinatorial algorithms to guide students along the optimum path to graduation, to kind of keep kids in school. So this is great. It's already used by 20 different universities and colleges. One college actually doubled their graduation rate with ed.

Leo Laporte (00:38:54):
So it's kind of proven technology, but it's very early. So now's the time you can get in invest today. If you want at our crowd, all I can say is go to our crowd.com/TWiT invest in EDU nav. You can join for free O U R C R O w D. Our crowd.com/TWiT. Join the fastest growing venture capital investment community around our crowd. O U R C R O w d.com/TWiT. Thank you, our crowd for supporting TWiT. Let's see. Oh, there's so many things going on. E three has been canceled boy at the last minute. Holy cow. They had planned an in-person event after having no event in 2020 due to COVID 19, a digital only event in 2021. For some reason, the ESA has confirmed. They're gonna cancel for 2022. We are looking forward to presenting E three to fans around the world, live from Los Angeles in 2023. I gotta say, this may not be just COVID.

Christina Warren (00:40:10):
Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:40:11):
No, this

Wesley Faulkner (00:40:12):
Doesn't make sense at all.

Leo Laporte (00:40:14):
I think it might be over for east three. What do you think?

Christina Warren (00:40:18):
I, I think E three is dead and for them to cancel this lead, especially cuz GC just took place, you know, in person

Leo Laporte (00:40:25):
The game developers conference and that was fine.

Christina Warren (00:40:28):
And that was okay. That was a Moscony. So by Southwest was gone on like things are, are happening and I could understand even

Leo Laporte (00:40:33):
CES in January.

Christina Warren (00:40:35):
Exactly, exactly. Although obviously that was much, much reduced. Yeah. Much reduced because of the Omicron outbreak really changed the tenor on that, but for them to be canceling it in, in April and in what it was supposed to be in June, right. That's usually what it is. Yeah. To me that means they didn't have enough vendors. Like they didn't have enough booths sold is, is the only thing I can think of on that is that they were, they had something where they had to get out of, of their, you know, their commitment. I don't know the,

Leo Laporte (00:41:03):
You know, I mean, I understand that other areas of the world COVID is raging and you know, the BA two variant is a cost for concern obviously, but that's all been baked into everything for six months. It's right. Mask mandates are being lifted everywhere. It's weird. I feel weird, but we're going to restaurants. We're going to concerts. We're going out. Everybody's out. I don't see masks anymore. I have to say COVID is just an excuse on this one and to say, well see, in 2023 is, is a hail Mary. I, I don't, I just don't see it.

Wesley Faulkner (00:41:40):
I, I, I wonder at this point, if, are they trying to cash in, on some sort of insurance? Oh, I mean like what is, cause there are deadlines to when you have to cancel event to, in the proximity of, of something to be able to,

Leo Laporte (00:41:55):
This might have been the last experience. Huh? You think? Yeah.

Dan Moren (00:41:59):
Yeah. I mean, it kind of reminds me back in the day with Mac world expo, which kind of over time lost its relevant

Leo Laporte (00:42:06):
More. Yeah. Well

Dan Moren (00:42:08):
And yeah, I mean, and it's hard to imagine white who is E three's audience, it competing against a lot of other different conferences that draw people in for different things like packs the various packs. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:42:19):
Packs is still huge as far as I can.

Dan Moren (00:42:20):
Yeah. I mean, so they, I think they struggled, right? Because it was not for a long time, E three was only sort of industry, right. Wasn't it, it wasn't really open to the public. So I think they kind of walled themselves off so long that by the time they are like, oh no, we, the industry is not enough to keep us afloat. We need to open this up. And in order to stay viable, it was kind of too late. And a lot of other conferences have sort of eaten their lunch.

Leo Laporte (00:42:45):
I'm looking at numbers from the IGN E three Wiki and attendance has been, would had been going up 2014. It was almost fifth thousand, 2019 was 66,000. There was no 2020, and obviously 20, 21 was canceled as well. But,

Christina Warren (00:43:02):
But, but even though attendance is going up, you've lost some of your big 10 poles, right? Like, like 70 that's. Nintendo's not there, you know, Microsoft shows up intermittently various studios are there so similar to what Dan was talking out with Macworld right. Like Macworld was kind of on its last legs, basically as soon as apple announced and what was it? I think it was 2009. That was gonna be their last year. And at that point, like it carried on for another couple of years, but I mean, that, that was the anchor. And, and at this point, you know, the anchors are not really there for, for E three. In addition to the, the fact that, you know, there are the, the direct consumer shows that are around and the directed developer shows. So yeah.

Dan Moren (00:43:44):
And kinda like apple it's like, they can go the, the big companies, your Microsofts or Sony antennas can go direct to the consumer. Exactly. Right. They don't need it. They don't need a trade show to show off their latest games or their latest consoles. People are gonna show up to hear them no matter what. So they don't need E three anymore. And like Christina said, if you don't have them holding down your, your tent poles, then your tent's blown away. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:44:07):
And it's not like gaming is not on a tear. I mean, Eldon ring easily, you know, one of the best selling games of all time I would suspect by now certainly very, very positive response to that. You could finally get an Xbox series X, both Microsoft and Walmart finally have them in stock. I, it took me a while. Christina. I finally got a series X.

Christina Warren (00:44:29):
Yay. Yeah. It's good system. With game pass and X cloud, especially the, the, the, the series S actually is, is a really good one. If people just wanna stream stuff, I've been, it's

Leo Laporte (00:44:39):
Been easy to get the series S but I wanted all the, the power.

Christina Warren (00:44:42):
Oh, I'm with you. I'm with you. I've just been, I, that, that's just been my, my recommendation to people who might be like, well, I think I I've primarily PlayStation person, but I wanna get into game pass. I'm like series S is not much more than an apple TV and a lot more powerful hand does more. Yep.

Leo Laporte (00:44:59):
Sony is speaking of that merging their PS now and PS plus streaming subscriptions to create a three tier subscriptions. This is a ridiculously complicated story.

Christina Warren (00:45:12):
I couldn't, it's so complicated.

Leo Laporte (00:45:14):
Couldn't really figure it out.

Dan Moren (00:45:16):
I, I just got price a wrong, I just got a, a PS five. It was sort of an early for my wife. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:45:22):
Also a great device. I mean, wonderful. Yeah.

Dan Moren (00:45:25):
And I have an, I had been, I have an Xbox one. I was a long time Xbox user and game pass has been great on. And so I almost was like, sort of holding off, buying some stuff, some games for the PS five, because like I had seen the rumors about the streaming service and it came out, I'm like, I, I don't know which of these things would get me the thing I want. Right. Like where, where in this sort of three tier subscription do I fit? So I, I haven't, I still haven't figured it. Some figured it out, frankly.

Leo Laporte (00:45:52):
So should I try to explain it now? It's, it's, it's probably not. It's probably not worth it. There's PS plus essentials PS plus extra and PS plus premium, which is the, the top price essentials is essentially the same as what you got today with PS plus two monthly downloadable games, online multiplayer access game discounts and cloud storage, extra adds 400 PS four, and PS five games to be downloaded including God war, some big, big names, mortal combat 11 Spiderman. They're gonna add more titles on a regular basis then premium. So ads, and maybe this is, I it's funny. This is the most expensive part classic games from PlayStation one, two, and the PSP.

Wesley Faulkner (00:46:45):
I can't help, but feel that this is reactionary to the active vision acquisition for Microsoft. Oh. Because of the possibility of losing some of their titles and that drawing on their past, like banked, bankable like nostalgia properties that they have, then they are gonna say, how do we E out more profit from that in order to make up for the possible future restrictions of some of these true

Leo Laporte (00:47:14):
Play. Yeah. That makes sense. There's definitely nostalgia. I mean, anybody who's buying a gaming console these days is likely somebody, an older man

Dan Moren (00:47:27):
In his middle age

Leo Laporte (00:47:29):
Who has some nostalgia for Kirby and stuff, you know, it's like the good old days. I don't know. I think that that's probably the case. Am I wrong? Yeah.

Christina Warren (00:47:37):
Or, or, or, or a kid who can't find a graphics card. I mean, there, there are varying reasons because I think nostalgia is a big one. I, I think to me I have to be honest, I feel like the, the price is wrong on this. I think that wanted to be competitive. It's,

Leo Laporte (00:47:50):
It's, it's fairly expensive. It's expensive much as $10 a month. Right.

Christina Warren (00:47:53):
Right. Well, that's the thing, right? It's like, if you, and if you're going to get it, you should probably pay for the annual price because it's like, I think that it's $60 a year or it, or, or, or $10 a month for the lowest tier option. And, and it, and it's similar in those other things. And I think that it's then, like, I think your options annually are 60 a hundred, $120. Now you probably will have people who will pay, you know, be complete us who will be okay with those older retro games that only happen streaming from Sony servers incidentally, they, they don't, they haven't invested into like, you know, having good emulation stuff on the, on the console itself. But I feel like they made it clear. They're not gonna do day one availability on their flagships for all the studios they own. And, and Sony's whole thing. I mean, the reason that the PlayStation is section amazing ecosystem is that first party stuff, right. They're similar to Nintendo in that way and that they just have a killer exclusive first party lineup. And if you're saying, okay, we're gonna cost as much as game pass ultimate, which works on PC and you know, cloud devices and console, but we're not going to have like the, the day one availability to me. You can't charge that same price.

Leo Laporte (00:49:05):
Yeah. Yeah. Microsoft still has the best subscription. I mean, if you're a serious gamer, I think with X cloud. Yeah.

Wesley Faulkner (00:49:14):
The only way the price makes sense is if you have access to other hardware. So if they do the Netflix model, right, you pay this premium and you, you don't need to have a place to

Leo Laporte (00:49:24):
Play it everywhere in order to

Christina Warren (00:49:25):
Play it. Yeah. That, okay. Fair enough. Yes. And if, and if they did do something like that, which again, like if they brought like an XCO sort a C where they were like, okay, you don't need cuz the way that a lot of their streaming stuff works now is actually you're streaming it off of your home console on your PC, right? Like it's not a real streaming thing. They have, the streaming stuff is, is Del is re to number of games. I think you're right. I think if they did that, where they said, okay, basically, you know, kind of their GForce now X club, whatever, you know, a competitor, whatever you wanna call it, stadia, I guess then. Yeah. I think maybe they could charge what they're charging, but as it stands right now, I just feel like $15 a month is too high. I feel like if they come in at $10 a month for that option, then you have something that is, is price competitive consider you're not gonna have the, the day one releases, which is obviously one of the big appeals of of game pass

Leo Laporte (00:50:19):
Actually by not buying an Xbox live subscription. The only advantage to that is when I play Eldon ring, I don't see all the ghost players. I don't see those stupid messages that people put all over the place. They just could play the game in peace and quiet without anybody else bothering me. Kids get outta my Eldon ring. You play, yeah. You must play at Christina.

Christina Warren (00:50:42):
I, I, I haven't yet. Brianna and Simone. I know Brianna loves it. Yeah. Yeah. They're obsessed. And I haven't and I'm going to, I've just, I've, I've been busy. Like I was trying to, you know, close up one job and like start at another, but yeah, that

Leo Laporte (00:50:55):
You're getting to be a grownup and all that. No time for gaming. My goodness. I know. Do you have roaches in your animal crossing house now? I mean spider.

Christina Warren (00:51:05):
Yeah. No. Oh definitely. I have a, I haven't, I haven't gone back to animal crossing in a while. I, I, I need, I need to go in,

Leo Laporte (00:51:11):
It's funny when you go in there, there's, there's roaches. There's cockroaches cuz you haven't been there for a while. I'm

Christina Warren (00:51:18):
Gotta clean up. Yeah. Yep. It's

Leo Laporte (00:51:20):
Pretty funny actually. Yeah. Who has time for that anymore? Right? We've got, we've got jobs. So could say focusing on our next novel things like that we're almost done with Bitcoin. No, I wish if only there are 19 million Bitcoin now as of this week, which means there are only 2 million more to make. As you know, with Bitcoin, it gets harder and harder as you get closer and closer to the end, the way it was designed by whoever or whatever Satoshi Nakamoto is, is that Bitcoin would have a limited number of total coins around 21 million. And as they were mine, it'd be easy at first, but it would get harder. And how harder to mind them all this to avoid inflation? It certainly is a lot harder. We can thank Satoshi for the price of video cards these days. Thank you, Satoshi, whoever you are. The 19000000th Bitcoin occurred on block 730,000 in the network on Friday only 2 million left. Some estimate it could be a hundred years to get those last 2 million. I don't know. I don't know. It

Dan Moren (00:52:41):
Feels, it feels like when they used to have all those things about how, how many years of fossil fuels there are left? Yeah. That's right. And, and then it kept being like, oh, we've yeah, don't sweat it guys. We're all

Leo Laporte (00:52:51):
Good. So Bitcoin fracking is just around the corner. Is that what you're saying? That's right. Yeah.

Dan Moren (00:52:55):
Yes. Yeah.

Christina Warren (00:52:56):
It's like IP four address space, right? That's right. Like we've exhausted. It we're run. We're still run. We've run out. But yet we're still always able to issue, you know, people addresses it's the,

Dan Moren (00:53:07):
We discovered Q4 unknown set numbers. Yeah. Look at that. That we are. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:53:13):
That's interesting. I wonder if there's a, it's a natural human tendency to say the sky is falling. We're running out, we're running out. And then, I mean, yes, I know that because when COVID happened, there was no toilet paper for some reason. So maybe that is a human thing. 

Wesley Faulkner (00:53:29):
I, what, what, I'm curious about the evolution, if we're thinking ahead, I know that's a 2 million left. Yeah. But when we think about where Bitcoin was to where it is now, where you could do it on any moderate kind of PC, and we've moved past that to, you have to have a higher power PC, and then we've moved to the point where if you're serious, you have like custom Asics, right. To do this. Will we move in the future to a place where you have to be a nation state or

Leo Laporte (00:54:01):
Maybe yeah.

Wesley Faulkner (00:54:03):
A large tech company, a like an Amazon or Microsoft in order to have, or

Leo Laporte (00:54:08):
16 year old in a basement

Wesley Faulkner (00:54:09):
Or a 16 year old.

Leo Laporte (00:54:11):
Yes. The

Wesley Faulkner (00:54:11):
Only basement, one of those two options, nothing in between, nothing in between. So that, where if, for instance, if China did a full reversal and said that we are dedicating some severe like computing power, oh,

Leo Laporte (00:54:27):
They could get it done quick

Wesley Faulkner (00:54:28):
To do this. Yeah. And then, and then United States is worried about like a 51% attack or whatever. Right. And right. They just say, well, in order to,

Leo Laporte (00:54:38):
Oh my God. Keep up with

Wesley Faulkner (00:54:39):
China. We have to do it here too. And then it's like an arms race where then only the biggest actually do run these node. I

Leo Laporte (00:54:46):
Never thought

Wesley Faulkner (00:54:47):
Of that in the future.

Leo Laporte (00:54:48):
Yeah. Wow. The current hash rate is 201.8, four exa hash per second, whatever that means. So yeah, that's a, I like that scenario. You should write that first novel Wesley, the Bitcoin wars. Yeah. No,

Wesley Faulkner (00:55:10):
I mean, think about it. Like we do like these, like the Lawrence live from more like super computer to simulate nuclear explosions or whatever. When the, when, when there is a large, like concerted effort to really worry about the arm race and speaking nuclear weapons, this could be a currency race. And so this is not something that's interest out of the realm of possibility,

Leo Laporte (00:55:33):
But you know, we have learned that the only way to win is not to play. We do know that. Right. I think, I think we, I think Whopper figured that out way back when,

Wesley Faulkner (00:55:43):
Or the only way to lose one of the two. Yeah. We'll

Leo Laporte (00:55:45):
See. You see that's the problem is people like you let's see, ubiquity not too happy with this is suing Brian Krebs for $425,000 in damages. You may remember that ubiquity had ADA breach sometime ago. It turned out it was a rogue employee. Ubiquity says that Krebs sole source for his article about the breach was that rogue employee. And according to ubiquity, Krebs, misin intentionally misled the public about the data breaching the blackmail attempt ubiquity said, no, no, we promptly notified customers. We told them what to do. We, we notified the public in the next filing with the F S E but Krebs intentionally ignored all that in order to drive traffic. Now I have to say these kind of lawsuits, almost never succeed. You'd have to prove malicious intent on his part. I, I feel like it's mostly a nuisance suit, but of course Brian's gonna have to defend it. And I have a lot of respect for and Krebs. I, I, I think this does not reflect well on ubiquity, to be honest, although you know, their, their side of the story is somewhat damning.

Wesley Faulkner (00:57:16):
Shout out to a friend of mine or whatever. The, the dev real space, Corey Quinn, glad to see that he was noted in the story

Leo Laporte (00:57:26):
In a long tweet thread, Corey Quinn, chief cloud economist at the duck bill group cause calls into question. The U ubiquity lawsuit said that the law firm representing ubiquity, Claire Locke, LLP of Alexandria, Virginia has a long history of suing media companies probably long and UNS successful. I'm thinking, I can't think of a lawsuit against media companies that succeeded ever since hu Hogan defeated the goer media with a bit with thanks to the millions of Peter teal. It's not normally something you succeed in. So actually I don't think Hulk Hogan, did he win? Yeah, I did win. Yeah,

Christina Warren (00:58:03):
No, he won. We, we went bankrupt. We were bought by Univision. That was the thing

Wesley Faulkner (00:58:07):
That was that in Texas.

Leo Laporte (00:58:09):
No, Florida.

Christina Warren (00:58:09):
No, that's in Florida. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:58:10):
Florida, Florida. But, but it, we found out later, Peter teal really was

Christina Warren (00:58:14):
Peter teal has been banking the

Leo Laporte (00:58:16):
Yeah. Lawsuit by proxy

Christina Warren (00:58:17):
The

Leo Laporte (00:58:17):
Lawsuit because he was mad about Owen Thomas outing him. So Owen says, everybody knew, everybody knew, and then it was what a sex tape. It was a Hulk Hogan sex tape, which just on the face of it doesn't sound very appealing.

Christina Warren (00:58:35):
No. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, it, it was that. And, and it was like that it already like the, the, the existence of it had already been reported, but then Gawker got the tape and edited it into, you know, like a, a, like a, you know, 45 second, you know, like excerpt

Leo Laporte (00:58:53):
Or Schiff.

Christina Warren (00:58:56):
And, and, and, you know, there were some other details and yeah, so it, yeah, there's actually a great Netflix documentary about that. Nobody speaks, but

Leo Laporte (00:59:04):
Oh, I'll have to watch it. So you were at goer at the time. I didn't know that

Christina Warren (00:59:08):
I, I joined, I got my offer the day that they filed for bankruptcy. Oh, nice. So I got in right. The bar, which was, yeah. Which, which, which is a great time to join a company when you're like, huh. Well, I was like, well, this will be a good story one way or another nowhere to

Leo Laporte (00:59:21):
Go, but up.

Christina Warren (00:59:22):
Exactly. Exactly. I, I, yeah, like we, we, I I've been interviewing while the lawsuit was still happening and, and I had friends who worked, you know, there, and, and so I, I knew some stuff, you know, because of that, but yeah, no, I, I came in like, literally, like at the very end. Yeah. But yeah. No, but these things usually do won't succeed. Although what'll often happen is you'll have some sort of settlements where, because you know, the, the, the person who's being sued might not have the money to pay for a lawyer.

Leo Laporte (00:59:51):
Doubt. I mean, I is very expensive. I mean, Brian, who used to work at the post is an independent blogger. I doubt's got a ton of money to defend something like the is,

Christina Warren (01:00:02):
Right. No, that's the, that's the thing is like, if you don't have the sort of insurance or, or, or whatever, you know, things set up to do that, like, this is one of the reasons why I think that for it, it's scary for a lot of journalists to go independent because they don't have indemnity you know, provided by.

Leo Laporte (01:00:18):
I just wanna tell everybody we do have a liability umbrella policy. So don't even think about suing us. Okay. We do, actually, we have to, most media companies have I've ever worked to, for have umbrella liability policies for things like this, you know,

Christina Warren (01:00:37):
Precisely. Exactly. But that's the thing is that, you know, like for the sub stacks of the world and whatnot, like, you know, think people like that, I, I don't know how often they often yeah. People always think about that. And, and, and

Leo Laporte (01:00:48):
Probably, it's not a good thing for me to say, we have the insurance, cuz that might encourage the lawsuit. So we don't have the insurance, we just dropped it now.

Dan Moren (01:00:58):
Forget it. I think that was the, well now you're on the hook for fraud now. It's and if you do damned, if you don't,

Leo Laporte (01:01:05):
You can't win, you can't win.

Christina Warren (01:01:08):
I have to say, I'm kind of, this is a, this is one where I obviously I'm never okay with companies suing

Leo Laporte (01:01:13):
Media. I'm a, I'm a huge fan of Brian Krabs I think the,

Christina Warren (01:01:16):
I am too. I, I am too. I do have to say it is the there. And I, and I don't think that it's anything, I don't think it's like defamation worthy, libel worthy doing no, but it, it, but, but the, the, I guess I would say that the accusation that he knew that the source of the leak was also an employee that he quoted that does seem like if you're going to report on a story that someone was fired for internal stuff and that person was you or source. I, I don't know. Like there, there, that does become kind of a weird ethical thing of like, how do you disclose that? Or, or, you know, how

Leo Laporte (01:01:52):
Do you make, unfortunately, you make that clear Brian May well have a very good defense for this, but we won't hear it because his lawyer said just clam up. Absolutely. Because in general it's a good idea not to, to say anything. So Brian, as far as I'm considered the benefit that that is on your side. 

Christina Warren (01:02:10):
I agree. I agree. Yeah. I mean, and, and, and it, and it's such a sad move cuz ubiquity makes great stuff.

Leo Laporte (01:02:16):
Yes. I'm a ubiquity customer. I have ubiquity throughout my house. I love it.

Christina Warren (01:02:21):
Yeah. They, they make great stuff, but this is just like, it just comes across as such kind of an anti like, like a, not a great move, right? Like it's one of those things where people kind of, you call things to question, especially since look, the, the data breach was bad, but the fact that it was internal and whatnot does change the tenor of, of how it looks a little bit, right? Like there can always be bad actors and whatnot, and you can do better things internally. But that is very different from like a, a person who rogue on the inside exactly than, than like, okay, we are a company where security is our competence and it was breached by an outsider. Right? Like those are different scenarios. So

Dan Moren (01:02:57):
Lasting out against lashing, out with a lawsuit against a, somebody who, you know, writes about security, a media company, just, it's not a good look. Right. I it's exactly, you know, have a conversation about it if you need to. But involving lawyers feels like,

Leo Laporte (01:03:12):
Be put out a press release saying we are unhappy. Sure. Yeah. This isn't right. Yeah. Or, or

Wesley Faulkner (01:03:16):
Do it wise it and just be quiet, don't

Leo Laporte (01:03:17):
Say, or just don't say anything at all. And hope nobody notices move along. Do a Jedi mind trick just

Christina Warren (01:03:23):
Go or, or, I don't know, just, just a thought like you, you hire, you, you employ, or probably have communications professionals on retainer, plant a story in another outlet where your people go through and, and give their side of the story and neutralize the situation like to me, that's what you should be doing like right. And, and, and, and if you wanted to be really dirty, you could kind of, you know, start like on the down low, you know, some conversations with people like, well, you know, the story as it was, as it was reported, wasn't really accurate. Okay. Fine. But suing, suing the, the, you know, security analyst, you know, who reported this stuff? I, I'm not a fan of it all

Dan Moren (01:04:02):
Like comp stuff's a lot cheaper too. Let me tell you than, than the lawyers. I'm guessing.

Wesley Faulkner (01:04:07):
Yeah. This is a bit of arising in effect, too.

Christina Warren (01:04:10):
Exactly.

Leo Laporte (01:04:10):
Yeah. We we're talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. We're talking about the breach. Congratulations to apple best picture Oscar for Koda. Nobody was paying attention at the time, but that's just to let you know, they, they did win first ever academy award for apple

Christina Warren (01:04:32):
And for any streamer

Leo Laporte (01:04:33):
And for any streamer, big, big deal. Right. Picture. Yeah. Now you know, I saw a number of people could saying, Tim cook, you show your brilliant and all that. But honestly, all this really was, is something that's premiered at Sundance. By the way is also the first time a Sundance premier won an Oscar and apple saw it and apple engaged in a bidding war and won and bought it. I think not for a whole lot of money. I can't

Christina Warren (01:04:58):
Remember 25 million, I think. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:05:00):
Yeah.

Christina Warren (01:05:00):
Which is not a lot, but, but for, for the size of the film, but it was significantly higher than what some of the other bits had been. Cuz I think they'd already, pre-sold some of the I guess distribution rights and some other territories and sorry, go on. The

Leo Laporte (01:05:14):
Other thing that actually it, red downs more to Apple's glory is that they then spent 10 million for an Oscar campaign.

Dan Moren (01:05:22):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:05:22):
And that's how you get the big names to come to your streamer is saying not only did we win an academy award, but we won it because we, we had a 10 million marketing campaign which was more than the movie's entire production budget to get, get this into the Oscars into consideration and ultimately to win. And I think, I don't know how important those campaigns are, but I think Hollywood takes it seriously. And if you're a Martin Scorsese, you're looking at that, you're saying maybe I won't go to Netflix where my movie will be buried with 300 other films. Maybe I will go to apple and get that Oscar campaign. In fact, he does have a film coming to apple pretty soon. So

Christina Warren (01:06:03):
Matthew Buoni at puck news wrote a really great thing about this. Actually it was before it won best picture, but it'd been expected to win because it won the other awards, the other big things. And, and just based on how the voting block is, it,

Leo Laporte (01:06:17):
It was though it was a tight race. I think, I think there were,

Christina Warren (01:06:20):
It was tight. I think, I think it was between in June for sure. Gosh,

Leo Laporte (01:06:23):
You know, I thought power of the dog, which I didn't like all that much, but sure. Seemed like it had a lot of sentiment behind it, including 12 nominations.

Christina Warren (01:06:31):
Yes. Yes. And, and then it was, it was other than director. I mean, it, it was shut out of a lot of stuff, but and, and, and baloney goes into this on puck news, but he wrote a, a thing last week called Tim Cook's Oscar moment didn't come cheap. And it goes into a lot of like what they had to go through in terms of having a good Oscar campaign. And that it is more difficult than just showing up with, with $10 million because clearly Netflix and Amazon have tried that before and it hasn't worked. So it was a lot of, you know, massaging and, and messaging and stuff to, to get I wondering what they were able

Dan Moren (01:07:05):
Get. I wonder about how much of it too is like, there's a certain degree of sort of just subject matter and general sort of the world that we live in. Right. I mean, it's a very, it's a very depressing time for a lot of people and it's, it's been hard and like something that has a more uplifting thing. I think that was one of the things with the power of the dog. A lot of people were like,

Leo Laporte (01:07:23):
It's kinda grim. It's like, yeah,

Dan Moren (01:07:24):
Yeah, exactly. And it's like, maybe we need, you know, and you can't, there's only so much you can do with money to buy that. Right. Like having that at your disposal in terms of something that feels like, Hey, it's, it's a feel good movie, right. I think has a lot going for it in that way.

Leo Laporte (01:07:37):
There's no question though, that, you know, in fact, as we were talking about kind of the end of the line for E three after this Oscars, I think it might be the end of the line for traditional theatrical movies. And that streaming really is dominant. Netflix had 27 nominations. That's including the 12 for power of the dog. And four for don't cup. Apple had nominations also for Joel Cohen, McBeth, three of them. So there were a lot of streaming nominations. And I really, I've seen actually a number of articles and, and there've been a number of directors, including Ridley Scott and Scorsese himself who say, you know, the idea of a small film or an art film, or even just a, a thoughtful film doing well in the theaters is pretty much gone. It's gonna be comic book movies, extravaganza, it's gonna be dunes going forward. And that with, with the streamers, and this is, is what you were talking about earlier Dan, with the idea of writing a series as a novelist, having more than one book to develop a story and characters, it's kind of, I think it's kind of the same for streamers. It's not just movies, but a six episodes of something like the dropout can be so much more compelling than a two hour movie.

Dan Moren (01:08:54):
Yeah. I, and it gets people bought in, they come back, right. It's kind of the equivalent of like recurring revenue in some ways because people don't, I mean, look at Disney plus Disney plus is a great example of this they've carefully set up their schedule so that like, there's, there's never a time that you don't want to be watching Disney plus or subscribe to Disney plus. And I think a lot of the other streamers are following the same tack where it's like, let's have this of constant rollout of things so that we can keep bringing people back. And that, that helps right. Netflix, I think in some ways has struggled more with the film aspect, right. Cuz they they've dropped a ton of films, but to your point earlier about Scorsese and like the, you know, finding the, the signal and noise ratio there where it's like, well, you know, there's a movie you coming out or 10 movies coming out on this one day and it's like, do I really wanna invest my time in that? Or do I want to do something where I can sort of watch over a long term and get to get comfortable with it? Cause I think, I don't know for myself, I am much easier for me to like reach for a remote and start watching a new episode of something that I'm already invested in than to commit a new two hours. That's true to like V

Leo Laporte (01:09:57):
That's. I didn't even think about that

Dan Moren (01:09:58):
Psychology thing

Leo Laporte (01:09:59):
There. Yeah. Thinking about my own use. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Wesley Faulkner (01:10:03):
One thing of the calculus that you should also factor in with apple specifically is that it's not just money, but it's influence and they have spent a lot of time yep. Bringing in some Hollywood insiders into the fold to make sure you don't just have their expertise, but you have their network. And that network, that network effect is also extremely powerful.

Leo Laporte (01:10:23):
It's currently run by two insiders from Sony. And I think that when they brought the Sony guys in that's really when apple TV started to, to take off, you know,

Christina Warren (01:10:32):
Oh yeah, no 100%. And, and, and the, the puck news thing that, that I post, I hosted it, both them, the IRC and in the discord goes into some of those details, but I think you're exactly right. Like they, they, their first attempts at content was not good. And then they found the, the, the Sony execs who were, you know, had like a good TV sensibility and you know, now and acquisition stuff and this to us' point, like they have influence. And so people don't have the same kind of in Hollywood, especially they don't have the same maybe reservations and feelings of negativity towards apple that they might, you know, towards, you know Netflix and Amazon which helps when it comes time to trying to, you know lure people in to, to make exclusive projects for you.

Leo Laporte (01:11:23):
Yeah. I didn't see Tim cook at the Oscars. Matthew said he was gonna be there, but I was looking for, for him. Was he?

Dan Moren (01:11:31):
I believe he was. Yeah.

Christina Warren (01:11:32):
I'm pretty sure. Or he

Leo Laporte (01:11:32):
Was there. He was in the cheap seats.

Christina Warren (01:11:34):
Yeah. Well he, well, yeah, cause at this point, cuz you know, they had to have like the social distancing spaces and whatnot. So it was kind of like the golden Globes in term of setup. So yeah, the execs and whatnot were definitely

Leo Laporte (01:11:45):
And were in the back. Yeah.

Dan Moren (01:11:47):
It's funny filler. He got,

Leo Laporte (01:11:48):
Yeah, he got no air time. If he was there. It's funny all the movie stars that just shows you, you know, as much as Silicon valley wants to be Hollywood and as much as they make and they really are probably more of an economic driving force than Hollywood and more of an influence culturally, they still have, they have the, the, the nose place they're still in the back of the auditorium when it comes to glamor events.

Dan Moren (01:12:11):
It's an interesting point about the Netflix thing too. I some mentioned this. It might have been Julie Alexander on TWiTtter talking about this like that Netflix and the studios have almost a very adversarial relationship, right? Yes. Cause Netflix's whole point was like, we're kind of trying to supplant the existing model, whereas all the people to your point, Christina, about apple, like having a little more Goodwill, like people in Hollywood use apple products, they like apple product that gives us sort of a positive spin on it and that's not, Apple's only business, right? They're not there just to put Hollywood outta business, they're there to sell phones. That's just the sideline for, for them. So,

Christina Warren (01:12:44):
And, and they're buying things from existing studios, right? Like it's not like they're trying to do everything in house, which is, which is what Netflix you know, shifted to doing. So they're, they're still buying a other things too, but exactly it doesn't have that same adversarial relationship. You're exactly right.

Leo Laporte (01:13:00):
Interesting. Really interesting. Yeah. I actually ended up paying for puck news partly cuz our friend Barton's there, but also it's a really good journal for covering kind of the confluence of Silicon valley politics and Hollywood.

Christina Warren (01:13:18):
So I love it. I I'm a big fan of that and also the ANR. It's interesting cuz that the trades have, you know, almost all of the, the Hollywood trades are now owned by a Penske media group. All of them, a really deadline Hollywood reporter, a variety. And now we're seeing the next generation kind of disrupt things the same way deadline did, you know, 20 years ago. Yeah. Which with, with, with the, the anchor and, and puck news. So,

Leo Laporte (01:13:42):
And by the way, if you say Penske, that's a familiar name. Yes. It's Roger Pensky's son who yes. Who took the billions he made in in auto racing and automotive and in invested it in Hollywood media, he owns variety. He owns Hollywood reporter. He owns deadline. He owns it all

Christina Warren (01:14:02):
Long comes rolling stone,

Leo Laporte (01:14:03):
Rolling stone. That's right. What

Christina Warren (01:14:05):
A fast so by Southwest,

Leo Laporte (01:14:07):
South by he, he saved south by when they were about to go outta business cuz of COVID he stepped in and he is a majority owner now of the Penskes isn't that funny? Let's take a little break more to come. What a panel, love it. Wesley Faulkner is here. I almost called you Wesley FA that's a short version. Wesley Faulkner is here. How of community at single store? Tell us gonna be

Wesley Faulkner (01:14:32):
Late for dinner.

Leo Laporte (01:14:34):
Well, you are gonna be late for dinner today because we're gonna keep you late. Sorry. Tell me about single store. What do you, what are you still loving it there?

Wesley Faulkner (01:14:42):
Single store is a database company that does both ingests and analytics and using the same storage in the same server. So you don't have to move it over to another instance of some other specialized database in order to do those same functions. So because it's, it's, the data stays in place without that transfer penalty or cost it, it does these actions really, really quick. So if you are doing a high amount of just in a high amount of analytics on your workload, this is a good way to make sure that you can E out every bit of performance. Nice. And speaking of south by Southwest. Yes. I did run into baritone day there, so it was good to see him. So bringing this full circle,

Leo Laporte (01:15:24):
I miss baritone. He's too big time for us ever to get him on the show. He's such a great guy, but I love he's so busy. Everything busy. We try to get him on more. He can. He's a great guy. Also with us, Christina Warren now at GitHub isn't that we've got two developer advocates on the show today. Isn't that great. And then there's the single guy miss? No, just, just teasing Dan. Warren's not single. Get

Dan Moren (01:15:47):
Me in trouble with my wife's not single.

Leo Laporte (01:15:49):
He's not. No, we, oh, in fact we know you bought your wife at PS five is a good man. That is a good man.

Dan Moren (01:15:56):
Yeah. She's she's currently playing assassin. SCR Val hollow downstairs. Probably. So

Leo Laporte (01:16:00):
That's pretty good. Actually. I like assassin SCR ball HOA. That's pretty fun.

Wesley Faulkner (01:16:03):
Are she? She's not hacking some government entity or

Dan Moren (01:16:06):
Some, you know what I can't say? I can't say I haven't seen her in a couple hours as

Leo Laporte (01:16:09):
Far as he knows. She's really good at computers though. We do know. We do

Dan Moren (01:16:13):
Know that.

Leo Laporte (01:16:16):
Don't forget. Dan's newest book is coming out in just a couple of months. That means it's all done. You finished it. You got the gales. You've done the gal proofs. It's ready to go. Right? Yep.

Dan Moren (01:16:25):
Did the whole thing did a lot. I read it so much that even, you know, I started to get tired of it, but I think that's, that's me. I read it like eight times. Right? I think people reading it first time, we're gonna be blown away. So that's what, I's what I

Leo Laporte (01:16:36):
Say about it's hard and I, and I never wrote fiction, but that is the hardest thing about writing a book is the gal proofs. And you gotta read the thing again and again, and again, it's like, oh please. The Nova incident book, three of the gala galactic cold war comes out in June. You can pre-order now at Amazon get in line. Oh, I'm sorry. July, July 26. July,

Dan Moren (01:17:00):
July 26th. Yeah. Thank God. The date's up there. Otherwise I wouldn't remember.

Leo Laporte (01:17:02):
Yeah. July 26th. Ooh. Exciting. Our show today brought to you by Neva. You know, what's exciting people coming back to work. I missed you guys. It's really nice. We have the lunches and things, but at the same time, there's still people at home cuz they've got small kids or they just aren't comfortable coming in. So a lot of us now, a lot of businesses we're doing the hybrid thing a and that means your conference room becomes one of the most important places in the business and conference room. Audio becomes super important. If you're still talking to that little spider in the middle of the table, you're leaving out all those people working from home. They can't hear you worse. I see big companies do this. They bring in AV companies, the engineers crawl around, they install psjo, microphones, wires, everywhere. It's expensive. There's lots of calibration involved and you really ne never get off the, the, the, the wagon train because they're gonna have to come back and calibrate it again and again, and upgrade and so forth.

Leo Laporte (01:18:07):
I have a much better solution. It's called Neva. And they've got a patented technology that is amazing. Essentially. It's as easy as installing a soundbar with one or two of these Neva speaker bars. You're not only gonna have great sound. You're gonna fill the room with thousands of virtual microphones. It's their patented microphone missed the technology, which means everyone in the room can be heard clearly, no matter where they are, no matter where they're facing. So people want to get up and move around if they wanna make sure there's good social distance, it doesn't matter. It auto calibrates, every single time meetings and class participants can completely relax. Completely be. But remote participants don't feel left out cuz they can hear everything that's going on. And thanks to continuous auto calibration in your rooms are always instantly ready with optimized audio, no outside technician required your it department will love it.

Leo Laporte (01:19:06):
If you have multiple conference rooms or huddle rooms, because they get a console that lets them monitor, manage and adjust the system, sitting at their desk, they don't have to go from room to room. They don't have to get up at all. And the installation is so easy. Go to the Neva website, new reva.com N U R E V a neva.com. If you can install a soundbar, you can install it yourself. No big expensive installation. Just put it right up on the wall and it just works. You're gonna love it. There it is. There's the animated Jiff of installing. It could not be easier. Learn more about Neva. It's the great, perfect solution. Not as expensive as those custom AVS installs and, and not as crappy sounding as those little spiders in the middle of the table. No RVA ask yourself before you just do the obvious, costly, complicated traditional system. Make the leap to simple economical Neva, N U rva.com. Well thank you so much for their supportive this week in tech, neva.com a great product. It is nice to be going back now. You've always been Wesley. You've always been remote, right? You don't have to go into an office or do you

Wesley Faulkner (01:20:18):
Oh, that's right. I mean, there are team offsite. There are meetings and I will go on site there, but yeah, I virtually been remote for the past I four or five

Leo Laporte (01:20:27):
Years. It's not even COVID, it's just how, how a lot of people work.

Wesley Faulkner (01:20:31):
Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:20:32):
I mean, you like it that way. You prefer it.

Wesley Faulkner (01:20:36):
Well, I mean, it gave me the flexibility to move the Wisconsin, so yeah, actually it's, it's been, yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:20:41):
You could be with,

Wesley Faulkner (01:20:42):
Yeah, I have a nice lighting, some nice mic, a nice camera. So it's, it's, it's almost as if I am there. But the companies, especially in the tech space, especially during the hiring crunch, it's makes it so much better to hire remote because not having an office or not having requiring someone to be next to a hub or pay for relocation makes hiring so much easier and allows you to tap into the work or potential of so many more employees. And for me the flexibility of being at home or being close to my family is a good perk. That would be the differentiator between me working from one company to another, with the same pay. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:21:25):
I mean, I think what's one of the funny things is so many who had never worked from home, worked from home during COVID and now say, this is it. I am never going back. I like it. And as long as, I mean, I think it's for a lot of jobs, it's completely effective. Christina, do you, are you going back into an office now or are you

Christina Warren (01:21:45):
Well so, okay. So I left Microsoft right. As starting to open back up. Right. And, and it was gonna be a hybrid work thing where, you know, I, I was gonna say, okay, I'll come in a couple of days a week and work from home, the rest GitHub does have an office in the Seattle area in, in Bellevue. I haven't been to it yet, but I will, it's still not at like full capacity or anything, but I think it'll be one of those things where I probably I'm most mostly work from home, but I am actually looking forward to going in it's in

Leo Laporte (01:22:19):
San Francisco right down here. Well,

Christina Warren (01:22:21):
The main office is in San Francisco, but they, they do have a location in, in Seattle or in Bellevue. They have a, a one that apparently it's beautiful. So I, I look to going into that you know, I, I would ideally like to maybe go a couple of times a week. We'll see. I'm not sure yet. I'm actually hoping that I can come and visit the San Francisco office.

Leo Laporte (01:22:41):
If you do, you know, we are up here not far.

Christina Warren (01:22:44):
I that's actually exactly what I was gonna say. I do that I would love to come see you for sure.

Leo Laporte (01:22:50):
Yeah. So GitHub, I mean, if anybody is remote work focus, it's gotta be GitHub. Here's an article from 2015 that says at GitHub, you don't need those stinking office that says that half of GitHub's employees actually are offsite, but there's, I think the office that you would be going to in the, I don't know, maybe that's San Francisco, but it's

Christina Warren (01:23:09):
Yeah. I think that's the San Francisco office. Yeah. It's pretty, it's very nice. But yeah, the, the

Leo Laporte (01:23:13):
It's like picnic tables.

Christina Warren (01:23:14):
Totally. No, I mean, it totally has that kind of vibe. Well, and you miss that sort of thing. Right? I mean, that's the thing it's like, I live in, if I had a big house in Wisconsin, then it would be, be different, but I have like my office, which is a mess right now and that I have to kind of get cleaned up and

Leo Laporte (01:23:30):
It's nice to be able to get out. When you do come to San Francisco, I want you to check this out. Apparently they have a replica of the oval office.

Christina Warren (01:23:39):
Okay. That's amazing.

Leo Laporte (01:23:41):
I don't know whose office it is. It doesn't look like it's anybody's maybe you could sit there. We'll take some pictures. It'll be great. In fact, absolutely. If you could do the show from the Al office, that would be even better.

Christina Warren (01:23:52):
Right. Wouldn't that be great.

Leo Laporte (01:23:53):
Wouldn't that be awesome. So good.

Christina Warren (01:23:54):
That would be really good.

Leo Laporte (01:23:55):
Yeah. It makes sense that they would be remote. Yeah. And, and Dan, have you ever worked in an office with people?

Dan Moren (01:24:03):
Yeah, it's been a long time. I mean, when I was act world, I worked remotely, but I would go into the office a few times a year, you know, especially around apple events and stuff like that. But the last time I had a job that was me, full-time in office was I think 2005. Yeah. So

Leo Laporte (01:24:18):
It's, what's really ironic is I never stopped coming in, but I was the only, it was me and John and, and that was pretty much it during, for the last two years in COVID. But cuz I it's hard for me to do broad, to do, especially the radio show, but even TWiT to do that at home. There's just, I just can't get my energy level up. I need to go to a studio to do stuff. I need bright lights in my eyes before I can even wake up. So I, I, I never stopped, but I also really like it that nobody else was here.

Leo Laporte (01:24:52):
So don't come back. Okay. We've had, we've had group lunches now. It's been really, I did kind of miss people. It's kind of fun to have people come back, but I love it that people gonna do work from home. And I think that's the, that's absolutely gonna be the, the way to go. Speaking of, of Mac world, you have an article Dan and Mack world this week, apple is at its best when it doesn't know best. And, and you're using the Mac studio and studio display as an example of what you mean.

Dan Moren (01:25:24):
Yeah. I mean, I, I think, and I sort of jokingly my lead on this swim was like, the inside of apple are two wolves. Right? And it's, there is this fundamental, there is this tension there that apple has always had, which is to say like their, their sort of company line is the whole, we like to surprise and delight our users. And that is when they, they do such good work is when they come up with answers to problems, you didn't even know you had. And you're like, oh, well, that's great. That makes my life so much easier. But the sort of flip side of that, the other element that they deal with is this whole, like, we have one way, it's our way of the highway, right? Like we know how we're gonna do this, you're gonna do it this way or you're not gonna do it at all. And I think those are kind of two sides of the same coin. Do

Leo Laporte (01:26:04):
You think what's Johnny I's departure that's and Steve jobs dying 10 years ago that that's changed a little bit. That they're a little more Johnny. I felt like he was the dogmatic keeper of the flame.

Dan Moren (01:26:16):
There is definitely a top down feel there. And it's not that they don't still have people doing the app, but I think there is this shift where they've started to go back to listening more to their users. I mean, I think you can see that with the MacBook pros from last year where they reinstated all the ports, right.

Leo Laporte (01:26:33):
We're missing. Yes. Yeah. People are happy. Got rid of the touch bar, got rid of the butterfly keyboard, bad

Dan Moren (01:26:38):
Keyboard. Yeah. All this stuff feels like rather than them sort of imposing a know how we want to do this and it's gonna be great. You're gonna love it. Trust us. Big

Leo Laporte (01:26:48):
Escape, key listening developers.

Dan Moren (01:26:51):
I mean, but like the studio is a great example of like putting ports on the front, right? Yeah. An apple, an apple machine that it's not, let's be honest. It's not the best looking Mac that's ever been made. Right. It, not that it's totally unattractive, but it's, it's functional. Right? That's

Leo Laporte (01:27:07):
Personal. It's not form over function. It looked really Tubby and I've kind of come, it's cute. It's like a little fat little chubby Teddy bear. I don't, it's chubby, but it's cute. Chubby.

Dan Moren (01:27:19):
I mean, if you, if you throw it out there and compare it to something like the trashcan Mac pro, right. Which was all about form, it was all about, we're gonna make this

Leo Laporte (01:27:28):
Be very much

Dan Moren (01:27:29):
Circular piece

Leo Laporte (01:27:30):
Of crap and

Dan Moren (01:27:31):
Right. And in the end of the day, it didn't do the job it needed to get done. So I think it's refreshing to have a situation where they're like, we understand this is a machine that you want to get your work done and we're gonna make it as easy as possible and accommodate what you're trying to do with it. And I think that's, that's good. It's speaks well to where they're going with these product lines.

Leo Laporte (01:27:48):
And yet the studio display I'm really starting to think was a misfire.

Dan Moren (01:27:56):
I don't know. I there's a lot of debate about it. And I can't tell how much of that is sort of created versus how much of it is Ash actually impacting people because people wanted like, you know, after the pro display, XDR came out with its humongous price tag, people were like, oh, just put the 27 inch iMac panel in a monitor and, and let me buy it. And that's what they did, you know? And it's, you know, it's 1600 bucks. It's not cheap, but for an apple product, it's pretty cheap. You know, I don't think it's a bad quality monitor. I think a lot of people who are used to having an iMac on their desk would be very happy with this. There's been a lot of complaints about this and that and how it matches up to other things. But I think one of the things is there's not, there's not really a super com like comparable product to this, right. Everybody who was using a Mac mini or wanted to hook up an external display to their Mac, a pro a lot of them were using the LG, the ultra fines.

Leo Laporte (01:28:49):
And those had a, yeah.

Dan Moren (01:28:51):
A lot of people had complaints about those too. I've

Leo Laporte (01:28:53):
They were shielded at first and they were they're

Christina Warren (01:28:56):
Poorly shielded the, the, the built in stand. Isn't great. Although it at least comes with Vasa so, yeah. Yeah. You know, because I have one of those that I'm gonna be selling and I, I should be getting you have

Leo Laporte (01:29:08):
A studio display.

Christina Warren (01:29:09):
I'm getting, I am I got the, the one with the, the Vasa option. Cause I'm not dumb. Put

Leo Laporte (01:29:14):
Your fingers in your ears. I think it's basically a bunch of parts from 2018 and 2019 apple had left over. Oh

Christina Warren (01:29:22):
Yeah. You're

Leo Laporte (01:29:23):
Not wrong. Slapped together into a $1,500 product.

Christina Warren (01:29:27):
Oh, it's it's look, I, I, I have many complaints that I spent the money that I spent on it. Like I'm not happy to buy it to be very clear. Oh, okay. But, but there are no other 5k displays and that actually does matter to me. Does

Leo Laporte (01:29:39):
5K make that much of a different there's lots of 4k.

Christina Warren (01:29:42):
Yeah. For me, I really do. I have to say, cause like for, for PC stuff, for gaming, whatnot, 4k is fine. I can use like a TVs monitor for that, but I've been using a 5k iMac for God, like, like 10 years at this point and it's hard to go back. And, and it's hard to go back. So I, the reason I ultimately ended up getting the LG was because I was like, I just wasn't happy with any other display that I got, like having them side by side, it really bothered me and even hooking my Mac up to it. I just didn't like the, the way that, you know, the, the, the display scaling happens. So I, I think, I think it's stupid that I spent this much money on something that doesn't have local domain zones, but that honestly, you know, like I would Ola have been nice. Yes. But did I expect it? No. higher refresh rate. I don't think that's was ever going to happen anyway, that, that matters to me less, but

Leo Laporte (01:30:32):
I feel like, well, that's another thing that bugs the hell outta me. Apple put a H I 2.0 port on its studio display. So it can't do high frame rate. I would love 120. I have 120 hurts monitors that I can't, you know, get that speed on. Right.

Christina Warren (01:30:49):
Drives me nuts. You can't, you, you can, if you, depending on like, if you have a display I'm display

Leo Laporte (01:30:53):
Monitors, although I've had trouble getting display port working, which is another issue this is by the way, Samsung said, oh, hold my beer. And they announced the M eight, which is an right. It's only 4k, but doesn't that look a little familiar, like maybe like kind of like an iMac.

Christina Warren (01:31:13):
Yeah. With the colors,

Leo Laporte (01:31:14):
With the colors,

Dan Moren (01:31:16):
Samson making a product that looks like an apple product. That's

Leo Laporte (01:31:19):
Unheard of. Unheard of. Although they didn't put the camera in the display, they put it on top, but of course that way you could put a better camera in there, or you

Dan Moren (01:31:27):
Could take it off, which, you know, I know people who can't have cameras

Leo Laporte (01:31:30):
Don't want a camera, take it off. Totally sure. And it's 700 bucks, so it's less than half as expensive. But

Dan Moren (01:31:37):
I think there's something to Christina's point about for whatever reason. I think, especially if you get used to something like the 5k on the iMac, the re I think the, the resolution issue hits people harder than a lot of those other bullet point features.

Leo Laporte (01:31:51):
So you'd rather have 5k than HDR

Dan Moren (01:31:54):
As someone who is used an iMac 5k for five years. Yeah. I don't, I, I don't know what I'm missing maybe

Leo Laporte (01:31:59):
Is probably part

Dan Moren (01:32:00):
Of it. Like if I saw that and we're like, oh yeah, that would be nice to have on there, but it's hard to have a sort of apples to apples comparison pardon in the expression. Because there, there isn't another monitor that chooses to emphasize the things that apple is choosing to emphasize in its, in its displays,

Leo Laporte (01:32:16):
By the way, I think this is hysterical in the pro photographs for the Samsung M eight, they show apple TV playing on the ate just in case you didn't really get the connection right away. Yeah. I'm an apple fanboy. And look, I, I bought four studios for various people. I did have a studio display on order, which I canceled. But I'm, I'm starting to feel like Apple's really just selling us an iPhone with a big fan.

Wesley Faulkner (01:32:54):
Can I spitball something? Yes,

Leo Laporte (01:32:55):
Please. Just

Wesley Faulkner (01:32:56):
Like, this has been debunked, I think, but I'm going to us put it out there. Do you remember in 2014, I think there were rumors that apple was gonna come out with a television.

Leo Laporte (01:33:08):
Yes, right? Yes. Yes. This is the closest they've come. It's an iPhone in a TV,

Wesley Faulkner (01:33:17):
Like old chips. The H EMI

Dan Moren (01:33:20):
Somewhere, somewhere, gene monster is very happy. I'm sure

Christina Warren (01:33:23):
Exactly. I was gonna say, gene monster is very happy with this and, and, and, and I,

Leo Laporte (01:33:27):
I don't think he ever gave up by the way. No, I don't think why not just

Dan Moren (01:33:31):
Keep doubling down on that one.

Leo Laporte (01:33:33):
No, it's, it's coming still. It's coming. I know. It's it's coming

Christina Warren (01:33:35):
Well, that's the weird thing with this is the tear down. I mean, we're not really sure how the storage is connected. It's 64

Leo Laporte (01:33:41):
Gigs of storage. It only uses two.

Christina Warren (01:33:44):
Exactly. And so it's like, okay, you could, and I'm not sure like what the, you know, they would need to have some sort of UI on it because of course there's no input selection, but it's like, would it be great if they, well, there's not, but well, but you could, you could use that. You could run

Dan Moren (01:33:59):
It through, you would have to run it through. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:34:02):
Yeah. Thunder bolts in network. Yeah. There's no, exactly.

Christina Warren (01:34:05):
So, so I mean, to me, what would be great is if you were able to have this and, and use the network of, of its host device or whatever,

Leo Laporte (01:34:12):
They're never gonna do that use do that. They're

Christina Warren (01:34:14):
Never, absolutely not. Of course not. I'm just saying it would be nice if I could like have an apple TV built into my $1,600 monitor. Yeah. That's all I'm saying. It would

Leo Laporte (01:34:22):
Be nice. Would be. And in fact, it's a better processor than the apple 4k ultra, but the 4k apple TV, but no, it's just cuz they had some chips left on the chips

Dan Moren (01:34:36):
Or no,

Christina Warren (01:34:37):
They had some chips.

Leo Laporte (01:34:40):
Like

Christina Warren (01:34:40):
They have a bunch of, they're like we bunch of iPads laying around, we're gonna grab the, the camera out of that. Okay. This is a chip fine. This is the only stores that it'll work with. So we'll just throw these in and, and this will also give us maybe, I mean, this is just me extrapolating. This will give us a te a test run for, for the bigger iMac that we said that we're not doing, but we are absolutely going at

Leo Laporte (01:35:03):
Some point. So initially the rumor was, oh, this is what we're doing instead of an iMac. We're we're, it's an iMac deconstructed. We're gonna sell it separately. And then now there's rumors. Oh no, they're gonna do a 32 inch iMac. That's still on the drawing board.

Christina Warren (01:35:17):
I think they have to.

Dan Moren (01:35:18):
I, you do. I think there is a, there's a gap there. I mean, and there's, I wrote about this a little bit too, but there's a performance gap too. Cuz I, I was in the market to replace this 27 inch IM at cause it's still an Intel model. I can't get anything that's between the studio, which starts at two, $2,000. Exactly. And then M one and it's like, I already have an one air. I don't want to take a lateral move of like having, this is my workhorse machine. I do podcast editing on this. I do stuff that actually requires some horsepower. I do things that require more than like two Thunderbolt ports. And so I wanted to buy something. I was like, there's really nothing in that price range between roughly, you know, the, the iMac and the, the Mac studio. And it feels like there should be something there because the am one pro chip, which they've used in the MacBook pro doesn't exist on the desktop. There is no configuration of a desktop machine that uses that one chip that's between the M one and the M one max. And you're like, that's weird. Right? You have a chip, it can do this stuff. You could stick it in an iMac or in a, or in a Mac mini.

Leo Laporte (01:36:13):
But remember to be fair, single Corp performance is identical on all M one devices from the ultra down to the M one MacBook air. It's the same true. It's not the chip. Isn't that different. You get some more PPU course. You get a,

Dan Moren (01:36:28):
You get more Ram too. You more Ram

Leo Laporte (01:36:30):
That,

Christina Warren (01:36:30):
Which is very important.

Dan Moren (01:36:31):
Yeah. Which is the big thing. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:36:33):
But, but that's because Apple's decided to put the Ram on the S SOC I think apple made some mistakes, honestly. And I've been a big like proponent of the M one and now people are going, see, I told you Leo, but I honestly feel like they, they really bought into this whole like, like you look at the studio motherboard, eventually it's gonna be just a chip. Right. The whole, the fact that they had to have any legacy, no, on there at all, probably bothers the hell out of them. Johnny Saji said one chip, it should be one chip. And they're just gonna eventually just make one giant chip.

Dan Moren (01:37:09):
The whole thing will be a chip.

Leo Laporte (01:37:10):
Yeah. Talk about no upgrade ability. You'll have zero. It is what is, it's

Christina Warren (01:37:16):
Their dream. Yeah. It's Apple's dream honestly. Right. I mean, which, which is, I have to say, like that becomes, what'll be interesting about the, the Mac pro yes. You know, update is, is okay. If, if they, they went all in on the redesign that they started, you know, five years after the, the failure of the trashcan. And, and finally, in, in, in 2017, they finally were like, okay, well now we'll do a listening tour and we'll start on this earnestly in 2018. And then they come out with it, you know, a year and a half later, like they finally were like, look, we brought back upgradeability and you can add stuff and, and make changes and, and touch your own Ram. Oh my God. You know for them, if they can't get rid of that, like is, is how it feels. But I don't know how they're going to handle that. Given the design, clearly of all of this being, you know, connected,

Leo Laporte (01:38:03):
Their GPS are turning out to be woefully in etiquette compared to Nvidia and, and radi a set, you know, let's not forget they call it M one, but it's an a 14, it's the same chip. As in your iPhone 12, it is an a 14 with a bunch of different, extra little side things. I'm not convinced, I'm wondering, honestly, if they might be running outta runway, that the problem with the Mac pro is we're having to trouble getting it be a lot faster and all of the speed comparisons, they compare power to power, which is important on a laptop and a phone, much less important on a desktop. And if you want real power, you're gonna turn your Invidia 30, 90 ti up to 400 Watts. You're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna have an airplane taken off in your, on your desk, but you're gonna get the job done TWiTce as fast. And I think on a desktop power is not as much of a consideration. An Apple's big selling point is kind of built in because they're basically using an iPhone

Dan Moren (01:39:11):
Or is the iPhone basically using a desktop chip? I mean, it depends how you look at it, doesn't it? No.

Leo Laporte (01:39:16):
Cause the iPhone came first. It's an a 14. It's not even as fast as the iPhone 13 chip. The M two is the a 15. Anyway, I know I'm, this is I'm swimming upstream on this. In fact, Neil C sidebar had a big article yesterday and above Alon a couple of days ago, apple is in a league of its own. And and it is true if you look at numbers, wow. New iPhone users, 60 million a year, apple watch new users, 30 million a year, iPad, new users, 30 million a year, Mac users, new users, 15 million a year. And they says all because they changed their strategy where it used to be the a, what, what he called a pull strategy where apple would take a product and be aggressive with that product, the products that we're gonna sell the best, or he says capable of making technology more are relevant and personal.

Leo Laporte (01:40:20):
And then have that pull all the other product lines along. So here your AirPods watch phones, then iPads, then laptops and desktops pulling them through, which meant that the stuff on the right hand side, the iMac, the laptops, they, and even the iPads are kinda lagging. He's says now they have a new strategy, the push strategy in which every major product category is told, go for it. Just go for it. I'm not sure I agree with Neil because I, I, I have to point out they're all using the same chips, which really has a lot to do with the overall speed capable. You follow Dan, you follow him closely. What do you think of Neil Neil's? I mean, I think Neil's analysis is always very good. What do you think of this? No,

Dan Moren (01:41:05):
I mean, I think it, it makes a certain degree of sense in terms of, despite the fact that the, the hardware and the chips are, are consistent across the line. I think apples often try to differentiate it by use cases, right? I mean, the devices they're pushing are not like, Hey, you know, let's try to like sell somebody this product when they could be using any other product, right. Like, you know, try to get everybody into an iPad, right. Instead of an iPhone or a Mac or something like that. And rather having an opportunity, not only to be able to say let's pitch the device that works best for whatever you're trying to do, but also, you know, to be fair, try to sell you on multiple devices, right. If they can sell you on an iPhone and a Mac and an iPad, then that's great business for them that helps them jump up all those user. And it helps them broaden their user base and, you know, deepen their product lines as well. So, I mean, I, I think he's not wrong that it's having all of those, those product lines sort of push individually as opposed to sort of prioritizing the ones that are the, like the, the hot sellers. I think it probably helps them just end up with the deeper bench.

Leo Laporte (01:42:15):
Well, and it is true. And, and mark Kerman predicted this, that they announced they are this year. They're gonna announce a ton of new products and they're gonna announce everything all at once. And it is gonna be kind of an overwhelming avalanche of stuff. On the other side of the aisle, I'm really happy to see ours Technica, Andrew Cunningham had benchmarks some of the new Alder lake chips, the I 3 12, 100 and the I 5, 12, 400 and Intel is starting to speed up, become a little bit better. They're finally doing something apple pioneered, which is these actually maybe Qualcomm did or armed did, but these efficiency, cores and, and power core combined. And I've always mod made fun of the I three S but actually the I threes are starting to benchmark fairly well. The I five is really starting to benchmark pretty well and being very compatible competitive.

Leo Laporte (01:43:10):
And one of the things that was interesting in this article by the way, is among all these benchmarks, he started to include some M one chips and apple, honestly, didn't look all that good compared to some of these Intel chips, these Alder lake chips, and you know, some people have called it skull lake because these chips are not exactly skimpy on power consumption. Look at this. This is hand break energy G use for a 10 AP and code apple easily beats everybody else with 24.95 kilo jewels compared to say you know, the max, which was an I three, a hundred twenty seven, almost 128 kilo jewels. But if you give 'em more power, they perform pretty well in the MP4 and code. The I three was as fast as the M one, the I three and in I 7, 12, 700 was be than TWiTce as fast that, you know, that really puts these apple graphs into perspective. Yeah. If you only look at power consumption, Apple's amazing. But if you just want to get work done, maybe an I three is as fast as an M one. That's scary numbers. I,

Wesley Faulkner (01:44:31):
I think last time I was on this show, we talked about this specifically, and I said that this lead is great. It's temporary.

Leo Laporte (01:44:39):
You were right. 

Wesley Faulkner (01:44:41):
The reason why I said this specifically related to AMD is I think they just acquired, I links, I think where some of this acceleration is done by some specialty accelerate tours that are on the chip. And so they move the memory of course, closer for the M one and the, the M one family. But there are, there's also an accelerator for JavaScript, I think also on the M one chip, which is really great. Yeah. And they

Leo Laporte (01:45:13):
Have playback units for ProRes videos. So you get right much better perform performance for 18 4k video.

Wesley Faulkner (01:45:21):
And when you see this emphasis on accelerators for specialty applications, that is something that you can absolutely do on other processors just to make sure that things run quicker. And I, I see that happening in the somewhat near future where, you know, apple will still be competitive. They, they will they'll each like best each other in different categories. But I could say it's, it's not a panacea. So this is yes, M one is great. There are also some other consequences when you move over to your own type of architecture, we mentioned earlier about breaches and security concerns. When you're when you're now gonna be, or moving into the majority of some of the install bases of some of these apple products, that this is also a vector

Leo Laporte (01:46:17):
For yeah. You get a melt meltdown spec happening in the M one, you got a problem. Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting point right now that problem's on X 86, not on, not on apple Silicon, but who knows, you know, it's

Wesley Faulkner (01:46:32):
Probably there. It's just probably hasn't. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:46:34):
I'm just, nothing's perfect. Apple does have a slight advantage because they make the operating system, they control the whole stack. So Intel or AMD, if they do add additional, you know, capabilities, they still are making a general purpose off the shelf chip for a variety of situations. So they can't be quite, you know, as, as tightly integrated, as

Wesley Faulkner (01:46:56):
Look at the Xbox, look at, look at, even the PlayStation look at AMD is running those that's

Leo Laporte (01:47:02):
True.

Wesley Faulkner (01:47:02):
And they make specialty processors already,

Leo Laporte (01:47:04):
Theoretically. Yeah. They end, but they're great. Yeah.

Christina Warren (01:47:08):
Yeah, no, they definitely do. But it's a different sort of thing where if you're, you know, looking well

Leo Laporte (01:47:12):
It's cause they know what the application's gonna be. Right. They know exactly,

Christina Warren (01:47:15):
Exactly. Yeah. Like, like I imagine that there will be, I mean, we've already seen this like like Amazon is doing their own you know arm 64 ships in the server room and you know, Invidia is, is getting into that space the, the data center space too. And so I think we'll see a lot of these more specialty use chips, similar to kind of how the M one has been developed, you know on, you know, the, the arm architecture going at after different things, but the, you know, X 86 is this great kind of general purpose thing that can be used in a variety of different ways. And apple, even though they're selling way more than a lot of other individual companies is still just a small fraction of the, of the number of, you know, like computing devices sold. So they don't have to have the same amount of like yield that like, you know, Intel does, or even AMD does in terms of how well, actually, I'm not sure. I, I I'd have, I'd be curious to know who ships more chips AMD or apple, but certainly, you know, Intel ships more ships. So because they have to be used in, in so many different things that apple just doesn't have to care about

Dan Moren (01:48:21):
Fundamentally different business models too. Right. Their job is to sell chips, right. Intel and am and D that's, their business. Apple is about selling devices. They're making the chips to,

Leo Laporte (01:48:30):
Yeah. I would even our, you apple selling lifestyles more than anything. Right.

Dan Moren (01:48:34):
I mean, well, I mean, you could argue, that's always been the case, right. I mean, and people, you know, people have been quick to point that out, but it's, it's, you know, it's something that people are, are buying, right. If, if they are selling, it works, it's working. It works.

Leo Laporte (01:48:48):
Let,

Wesley Faulkner (01:48:48):
Let me just ask this question. So if if we're talking about volume for Microsoft and the Xbox, what if a company like HP or Dell saying we would like our own processor please. And what kind of volume difference do you think they could push? I think it'd be at least competitive with the Xbox. And so they could be a diff it could be differentiated to the point where Dell has or own processor to differentiate themselves from HP. HP has their own processor. I think they can push enough units to make it.

Leo Laporte (01:49:17):
That's really interesting.

Christina Warren (01:49:19):
You, you could, I think the challenge there, you could definitely do that. I think the challenge there is then around, always around on the software side, right? Like, like what differences are, are you going to make and, and what sort of performance things are you going to do to make sure that the software that is running, going to run well, like apple has the advantage there and, and Xbox two to a certain degree in that, like they're controlling the full thing. So they're, you know determining what software can be written and you know, with, with the processes there, same thing with you know, like the custom ships inside of, of an Xbox. Whereas I feel like, unless it's at a very specific thing, like, does, does a Dell or an HP, do they have the resources to dedicate towards having their own software stack to run on these dedicated machines

Dan Moren (01:50:05):
And the marketing side of it as well? I mean, if you're HP or Dell, you've made your business with, we sell computers to everybody for every possible purpose. What is, you know, I think a lot of people would be hard pressed to say like HP as a brand is like, well, I'll buy, you know, especially stuff to make my Excel functions run better in my office environment. I mean, I don't, I don't think they have as strong a brand to enable them to specify that deeply in what they're doing. They're not a company even like, I, you throw out something like alien wear or something like that. Right. Which is, again, has a very clear market sort of niche they're going for. Right. It's harder for Dell, which is, you know, if anything, their corporate identity is sort of we're cheap, right? Like we're a force

Christina Warren (01:50:47):
Of a commodity type thing. People can customize their own thing. Yeah. I mean, I think what they'd have to do is like an HP uses do, you know, Atium like their own kind of custom processors and they had their own like, you know, variations of, of Unix and whatnot and, and all that stuff. But like, I think that if they were to go that direction, it would be basically what sun was right before, before sun. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:51:07):
It didn't go so well for PA risk and it didn't go so well for sun. And I,

Christina Warren (01:51:10):
I was gonna say, that's the problem, right? Is that apple, like you, like, you, you would need em, in those specialized cases and apple has found that sweet spot. Yeah. Qualcomm could probably do it to be honest. Right. Like Qualcomm could and, and, and has to a certain degree.

Leo Laporte (01:51:22):
Yeah. You could argue every Android phone in the us is designed around Qualcomm.

Christina Warren (01:51:26):
Right.

Leo Laporte (01:51:27):
So, yeah. I don't know. I think apple does have a unique PO market position though. And, and, and, you know, selling the lifestyle is not a bad way to go. You, you said in our discord chat, Christine, Christina, that it's silent when it's running and yeah. You know, I have it sitting next. That's the I have the max studio. My wife has a, the ultra, when I was able, I maxed all 20 cores on it. The fan did not ramp up. It didn't get hot. It was absolutely silent. On the other side, I have a an AMD rising 50, 5900 and a 30, 80 and video GPU and the fan sound like a jet air taking off. Right. It's faster, but it's, but is it the lifestyle I want? Right.

Christina Warren (01:52:15):
It's, it's the trade off. Right. And I think it depends on what you're doing. I think that for really high purpose, like, you know, high performance computing applications and stuff, I, this, this is the interesting thing for me is I feel like the value prop for the Mac pro it's, they're at an interesting inflection. And like, I I'll be interested in seeing what they're going to do on the GPU side, like what their, what their answer to that is going to be, because there were people who were buying the Intel Mac pros who probably didn't need it all, but maybe needed just enough and, and for, for their various workloads and stuff, they're like, okay, even though it's going to be really loud, and even though it's gonna be hot, like we need these yaws, we need this Ram, we need this upgraded, we

Leo Laporte (01:52:53):
Need video or AMD video or

Christina Warren (01:52:56):
A AMD. Right. Exactly. And, and, and at this point, I would say anybody who's buying a Mac pro and it's not it to something additional, like in, I would say probably in 99, out of a hundred cases, maybe 999 out of a thousand cases would be better off buying more commodity hardware and running Lennox in some way. I agree. That's, that's the situation that they need, if you

Leo Laporte (01:53:20):
Need speed much better. That's why Apple's got a real challenge with the Mac pro at the end of this year.

Christina Warren (01:53:24):
I, I agree. I think that that's the thing. Yeah. Because I feel like the, the ultra is gonna fit that like 80% point, but like, how are you going to go after that, that,

Leo Laporte (01:53:34):
How do you get any better than that? Yeah. Well,

Dan Moren (01:53:36):
And the question too is audience as well, because I mean, the macro has historically been one of the smallest sellers in their lineup.

Leo Laporte (01:53:44):
It's just tiny audience,

Dan Moren (01:53:46):
Right? Because their, their appeal is consumers. So, you know, and a lot of those people are getting perfectly happy with a MacBook error or an iMac, or what have you. So they're really trying to hit that, that 1% or whatever of their market's

Leo Laporte (01:53:57):
Really needs, that it's important to them is important. Cause they they're influencers. They need to get those

Dan Moren (01:54:01):
Absolutely people.

Leo Laporte (01:54:02):
And that's,

Dan Moren (01:54:03):
As Christina says, it's really interesting question. They've team ease that the Mac pro is coming. So they, they know that's a challenge they have to deal with, but how are they gonna address it? It's

Leo Laporte (01:54:12):
Not gonna be as simple as just stacking another couple of processors. No, I really don't think that's gonna solve the issue. Cause you don't have the GPU.

Dan Moren (01:54:20):
And it's hard to imagine also at the same time that now that they've deployed an architecture, that's basically the same throughout the rest of their product lines. We're gonna have one product that has swappable dims and PCI slots like

Christina Warren (01:54:32):
Right, right. Scale

Leo Laporte (01:54:34):
On that.

Dan Moren (01:54:34):
Is it gonna work? Right.

Leo Laporte (01:54:35):
I think honestly they should right off that market. It's such a small market. They, you know, I don't think it's important.

Dan Moren (01:54:43):
I think it's a tough it's proposition for they're gonna lose

Leo Laporte (01:54:45):
It. Cause honestly they don't compete. They're not competitive.

Christina Warren (01:54:49):
Right. Cause at this point they're not, if you're spending $10,000 plus, you know, on, on a machine, if you're going to that thing, then at this point, the software advantage that you have with apple, I don't know where that is because most people who are Googling that levels of comput, the GPU, frankly, are doing machine learning stuff. They're using kudo, which is Invidia. They're not AMD anyway. Right. Or they're using customized, you know, very specifically

Leo Laporte (01:55:11):
They're gonna use UX software. They're gonna buy commodity boxes and use Linux.

Christina Warren (01:55:15):
Absolutely.

Leo Laporte (01:55:16):
It's kind of, it's kind of interesting cuz I sometimes I think maybe performance, isn't the only criterion for some users. I mean, look what they do for scientific computing. They're all using Python. I mean, come on really? That's the not, that's not the fastest. Well anyway you know, there are all sorts of considerations and that's why being a lifestyle company is interesting. And it does that, that isn't the same thing as being a, a, a pro product. That's a very, very different thing. I don't think they need that pro market, to be honest. It's, we'll, we'll have a lot to talk about in a few months, maybe in June at WWDC, let's take a little break. Our show today brought to you by wealth front. Now we were talking earlier about, you know, getting an, a venture capital and stuff. But for, I would say everybody job one is, is being sensible, not playing the stomps market, not diamond hands, not to the moon, but putting away money to build your wealth step by step. Trust me, retirement comes faster than you think.

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Wesley Faulkner (01:58:57):
So much in that tweet.

Leo Laporte (01:58:58):
That is a fascinating thing to say. What do you think Wesley?

Wesley Faulkner (01:59:04):
I think one he's giving himself too much credit.

Leo Laporte (01:59:08):
You Jack it didn't ruin the internet. It's okay. Jack.

Wesley Faulkner (01:59:11):
It also, the decentralized web is still not here, so it's not like, I mean, there was no clear alternatives. So I don't really understand how

Leo Laporte (01:59:21):
He's not a big web three guy. He's in fact very skeptical about web three.

Wesley Faulkner (01:59:26):
Yeah. I mean he doubles with block his company. But

Leo Laporte (01:59:30):
He likes Bitcoin, but he isn't like web three, which is interesting. Yeah.

Wesley Faulkner (01:59:33):
So I don't know. Phil's Ramish like, are you gonna give up all your money now that you feel that bad? I mean, what, what are you gonna be fix it?

Leo Laporte (01:59:42):
Dave weer says, Jack, it takes a big man to admit this. How about giving back to help the open web? Yes.

Christina Warren (01:59:48):
How, how bringing back RSS to, to the, well, he's not a TWiTtter anymore.

Leo Laporte (01:59:52):
No, but still any of

Christina Warren (01:59:53):
Those decisions?

Leo Laporte (01:59:54):
Yeah. Twittter, in fact, didn't, wasn't TWiTtter, don't they have this blue sky thing that they're doing about decentralized TWiTtter, like, like masked on or so the fed I'm not, I, by the way, the only reason I noticed this is I kind of agree with him. Those were great days. The Usenet IRC, we still use IRC with the last man standing.

Wesley Faulkner (02:00:14):
There were great days for some people. I mean, those who had access and the majority and those who, well,

Leo Laporte (02:00:19):
Partly it was great because there weren't a lot of people and it wasn't open to the public yet. So that was part of its excitement. Right?

Dan Moren (02:00:27):
This is it's. I mean, it's also just it's nostalgia, right? It's oh, in my day, yeah. We had to download our binary on Usenet and it was really slow, you know? Well,

Christina Warren (02:00:38):
Okay. But, but objectively though. Okay. When I was in high school, when, when like 20 years ago, we had a way where there was an open protocol messaging, PLA thing that a number of different services could use and we could have a

Leo Laporte (02:00:51):
Yeah. ADM and like

Christina Warren (02:00:52):
ADM and, and, and trillion and, and, and dead in those where you could be talking to your friends on all those different services in one interface, you know, even 15 years ago, we had that with, with iChat that was built in, into, you know max and, and, and ADM and all that stuff. So, I mean, there is a point where I think you're right, like part of it is nostalgia for sure. And, and, and people like overly being glorified, you know, glorifying the past. But I also feel like we definitely lost something that existed when then people and I will TWiTtter didn't start out necessarily in this way where it actually, TWiTtter

Leo Laporte (02:01:29):
Was pretty before Ashton Kucher joined it

Christina Warren (02:01:32):
Well, but, but also they, they were fairly open in terms of, of standards and protocols they were and things like that they were. And then, and, and then they made the decision because they, they saw it as a competitive advantage.

Leo Laporte (02:01:41):
Well, he he's, it's a culpa he's saying I didn't. Yeah, yeah,

Christina Warren (02:01:44):
Yeah. And, and then that's what I think that, I, I, I'm glad that he's saying that and taking responsibility because I, I, I feel like it's not his fault, but I feel like it's, if all the, the web two companies that started out really embracing the open aspects of the web and interoperability hadn't then made and about face and, and cut off API access to certain companies and, and say, oh, no, we're, we're not going to work with these sorts of standards. And we're going to silo our data streams and whatnot. Then, you know, I think that things would be a lot better and a lot different. And you might not have some of the same kind of Grif that are gloaming onto, I think a very good idea, which is decentralization. Yeah.

Dan Moren (02:02:24):
Yeah. But at the same time, I think this is the tale as old as time. I mean, it's, it's companies discovered there was money to be made on the internet. Oh yeah. There was money to be made by, by, and I, and I agree. I feel like he's like, he's like 80% of the way there where he's like, you know, talking about the, the centralizing aspects in C, but he specific, it says discovery and identity, but I think you could make the argument centralizing stuff into corporations, running the internet was a bad idea, but to, you know, to Wesley's point, what are you gonna do about it? It was quite kind of inevitable. Are you just sad now? Or, yeah, I don't, I don't know where that's going.

Leo Laporte (02:02:54):
I mean, it, it, it is, it is the way of the world. I mean big companies tend to dominate because the economies of scale and a variety of other reasons, and they've got marketing dollars and so forth. And so, yeah, nobody wanted the internet to be run by five companies, but it is yeah. A lot. Let's what do we do now? I don't think web three is the answer or is it no. No. Shaking your head. Wesley. No.

Wesley Faulkner (02:03:21):
Well, what doesn't work on mobile. You're not gonna have a copy of the blockchain on your phone.

Leo Laporte (02:03:27):
Good point. So

Wesley Faulkner (02:03:29):
It's, it's,

Leo Laporte (02:03:30):
I mean, I might have it on my monitor, you know, I've got 64 gig ha

Christina Warren (02:03:33):
You just

Leo Laporte (02:03:34):
Four gig as monitors, not being used

Christina Warren (02:03:36):
Store big blockchain there.

Leo Laporte (02:03:37):
Yeah.

Wesley Faulkner (02:03:38):
Yeah. It's it's yeah. I think, Yeah. Crying

Leo Laporte (02:03:44):
As Dorsey has said, web three is essentially concentrated in the hands of Anders, Andreen, Horowitz, and the VCs who are promoting web.

Wesley Faulkner (02:03:51):
The only way things change is if motivations change and if it's always gonna be about money, it's, it's always gonna be a power where they'll try to centralize it. So it's, there's, it's gonna be someone who's gonna have to take on that mantle, but if it's at the heart gonna be for money, then, then no, I mean, a government might need to do it, but who's gonna trust them. I mean, who would like a nonprofit, but then they'll be pushed out and the large bags of money. There's something to remember though, push them out to, which

Leo Laporte (02:04:18):
Is none of those technologies have gone away. Ircs still here. Use nets still here. You can still put up a website as I have over here on a little dead. And

Wesley Faulkner (02:04:30):
You said Macedon,

Leo Laporte (02:04:31):
I use, we have a Macedon instance, a TWiT social. What if you have a glossy web that is run by the big corporations, the super highways, and you have some back roads that 

Dan Moren (02:04:43):
Eventually you might call it a, a dark web, like

Leo Laporte (02:04:46):
A dark, but it's not even dark. Doesn't

Dan Moren (02:04:48):
Have to be just the web. Yeah. It's kind of somewhere in between. But I think there is a, there's also the argument that a lot of the reason that these things are still there aren't necessarily as well traveled is because a lot of the centralization also made things easier for a lot of people. Yes. And, and that's for good and for bad, right? Like there are the fact that it's just so much more accessible and that this stuff works better. Cuz the money got shoveled into it and they, or able to design fundamentally a product that was much more well user friendly.

Leo Laporte (02:05:18):
It's true. Instead of running my website on a computer in my closet, I can run it on Amazon web services and it's probably cheaper and it's certainly more reliable

Christina Warren (02:05:27):
Well, but, but I think, but it's interesting. Right. Because in, in one sense, I agree with you Wesley, but I am gonna push back a little bit. Like I feel like the, the motives need to change. Sure. But I also feel like the monetary thing. I, I think sometimes that can change. If you can prove that you can make money by doing things more openly case in point, even though obviously like Facebook's like whole mission basically has been to kind of create an operating system for the web. And, and we have created these silos, the open web beat out the, the online services, right? Like that, that was the because people realized that they could make more money, not being tied into those closed ecosystems. You know, the copy stores, the America onlines, the, you know, prodigy and, and that sort of thing. Like the open web one big time and, and lots of companies had been betting on, on the so-called information super high. And that wasn't what succeeded it was the worldwide web. So

Leo Laporte (02:06:23):
By, by AOL,

Wesley Faulkner (02:06:24):
That made by the government though, right? I mean,

Christina Warren (02:06:27):
Well, well, well, no, no, the internet was the web wasn't. I mean, it was, it was created by, by researchers, nonprofit,

Dan Moren (02:06:33):
Yeah.

Christina Warren (02:06:34):
Nonprofits. But, but my point being like the, the, but still you have of these big corporations who had their own invested reasons for wanting people to stay in their own siloed things and it didn't work now you've had things become Reed, but I, I feel like there will always be some sort of value to, I mean, I think that's what makes the web special is that it, even though it can defacto be owned and controlled by a number of large groups and depend on where you live in the world and how you have access, you might only see a certain type of it kind of the beauty of it is that it doesn't have to be that way. And in fact how it spread was not that way. So I mean, I'm not trying to be like, you know, overly optimistic, but

Wesley Faulkner (02:07:15):
I gotta say, I, I, every time you push back, Christina, I really, really appreciate it. Cuz like, I think you're right here. So I am going to capitulate and say like, yes, if there is enough ground work put, and it's a lot of people can have a big company and a small little newspaper get on it and find value. It value in it. I think you are right. I think that that would actually lay the groundwork for some big change. I hope that that happens. I have my fingers

Leo Laporte (02:07:45):
Crossed, well, I also think human nature is while human nature is against us in our greed. It's also on our side because humans do like small groups. They do like small, you know, they like approachable networks. I think we loved Facebook and I think we've turned against it now because of how it, it became corporatized and not as intimate and not as personal. And I, I do think that in the long run things like Macedon you know, our TWiT social instance is small, but we all know each other. It's a community and people like communities. And so what's happening is the big companies are developing technologies. It can trickle down to these smaller companies. We have discord now instead of IRC, the discord is a great community and discord to their credit has resisted. Microsoft tried to buy 'em and they said, no they're still kind of small and private at some point, you know, what's gonna happen. They're gonna become big business and then we'll move on to something similar. But I honestly think that that's good. I think humans will humans, natural tendency to form community will find a way. And that's a good thing I think.

Dan Moren (02:08:58):
Yeah. I mean, I, I think I would agree with that. I mean, I find the most interesting conversations I have every day on the internet are generally in like, like small slack communities there. Yes. In, in a big TWiTtter and like on TWiTtter I've I have waited out of TWiTtter for the most part because it's like, but TWiTtter, it's very D to get anything done. It

Leo Laporte (02:09:17):
Can, it has this way of allowing you to form a community within yeah. The big thing. And you, it

Dan Moren (02:09:22):
Still has its value, but it, it is, it is definitely feels more like, you know, it's

Leo Laporte (02:09:27):
More promotional now

Dan Moren (02:09:28):
Break it from the fire hoses too. Right. Like it's just, and it's, it's all over the place and it's, it's harder to do nuance and it's harder to do

Leo Laporte (02:09:35):
Twittter blue health. It make you feel a little more, more at home or anything or no,

Dan Moren (02:09:41):
Just sad. Just blue.

Leo Laporte (02:09:42):
Sad. It's just blue. Am I blue? Mine

Christina Warren (02:09:44):
Is purple.

Leo Laporte (02:09:46):
Oh yeah. Mean mine purple too. How nice. Yeah. Your icon, right? Yeah. Yep. That's that's what you're paying the three bucks a month for or whatever. Yeah, it is purple honestly. Yeah.

Christina Warren (02:09:55):
Honestly, I'm paying the $3 a month because I thought like I've gotten so much out of TWiTtter. They over years. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of, I was kind of like, after everything that TWiTtter has given me, I can give them $36 a year.

Leo Laporte (02:10:10):
I was really, there are times when I'm really glad I have TWiTtter for the most part. I'm, I'm kind of with you Dan, it's like a, I feel like either I'm having a stroke because there's so many TURs inside jokes going on. I don't know. I feel like I don't get, I don't get it. Or it's just a fire hose of nonsense or, or a lot of promotional stuff. And sometimes a lot of times TWiTtter makes me angry and like, I get angry at the people who are saying the things they're saying, but then there's communal events like the academy awards, what an experience to be watching that live on TV and watching my TWiTtter stream. That was fascinating. I don't think we could have had an experience like that ever before. Do you?

Dan Moren (02:10:55):
I think it is. It is interesting cuz it has this sort of, I think you're totally right. That live events sort of, you know, peek into everybody's brains is unique and there's something

Leo Laporte (02:11:07):
The discussion going on over the slap and the different points of view. And I think we're very informative is very fast. It

Dan Moren (02:11:15):
Is informative, but at the same time, it's tricky because it also opened up this door where it's like, you need to have an opinion about everything and express that opinion about everything. And that is, that is a trap. Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:11:26):
Because,

Dan Moren (02:11:27):
Oh yeah, you do not need to be.

Leo Laporte (02:11:28):
You do not need by

Dan Moren (02:11:30):
The way, all these things. Right. I

Leo Laporte (02:11:31):
It's, I have plenty of time to have opinions here. I'm not putting 'em on TWiTtter. It's

Dan Moren (02:11:35):
It's interesting. But at the same time, it's also very, very dangerous at times I think, oh,

Leo Laporte (02:11:41):
You know, when I look at people like Elon, I just say, get off TWiTtter, man. You're not doing yourself any favor. Right. This is not helpful to you. You can think all that stuff, all that hockey, don't say it out loud. And especially, don't say it out loud to the whole world. Maybe that's why he is making his own social network. Oh yeah. That was another one where you know, he's not doing that. And by the way it's been done, I don't see a lot of people flocking, the truth, social, I don't right there. If you, if you're gonna do something like TWiTtter, you need critical mass. You can't just, yes.

Dan Moren (02:12:19):
Start your rock. That's always been the trouble with a lot of the things that have tried to supplant and replace TWiTtter. I mean, I think mastodons ability to do instances. I think it lets it survive in pockets and

Leo Laporte (02:12:31):
It's not huge.

Dan Moren (02:12:33):
Its it's not huge. Yeah. And it's never gonna replace TWiTtter cuz you won't get enough critical. I mean I think back to the days of app.net, if you remember that you tried to sort of Payter pay. Yeah, same, same here I did as well. But it, it, it just, there was no way. And, and some of it is just it's, there's something UN, unfathomable and unpredictable about what gets people, what gets that critical mass? What causes that critical mass, right? Like if you be, if you could figure out if they could weaponize what becomes viral, everything would be viral and then nothing would be viral. But like you can't figure out. I

Leo Laporte (02:13:04):
Think we

Dan Moren (02:13:05):
Actually, what catches,

Leo Laporte (02:13:05):
I think that already happened. Everything is viral and nothing is viral. Did that not happen? Yeah, no. Yeah. There's too much virality. Yeah. Well there's always tick to my son has 2 million followers on TikTok. Amazing. And he, and he's using that to slowly, gradually build a business, a persona, a presence to, you know, he was on access Hollywood this week. I think it is amazing. I don't think he, he couldn't have done it on YouTube. He couldn't have done it on TWiTtter. He was, you know, he's, he's 27. He was made for TikTok.

Wesley Faulkner (02:13:46):
I think technology sometimes catches up with our ability and our interests in a way that captures it. So that in the time when it's released that they're able to really hone in on those feelings of people who are thinking like, this is what I need. Like just like the tablet market with Microsoft, they were too early. And it was clunky. Of course,

Leo Laporte (02:14:11):
Boy, they were all in though boy.

Wesley Faulkner (02:14:12):
But I think the same is with technology and doing the right thing at the right time with the right amount of timings and places. Yeah. I think all of that kind of factors into the success of

Leo Laporte (02:14:24):
Something you see that, I mean, it's you see it all over the place. What was what was Dennis' a, a location Foursquare at south by just perfect timing. It just happened because of that. And then there's companies like Facebook trying to pull up the ladder. Now we've learned that they paid a firm called targeted victory to push stories about what a threat TikTok was to American children,

Wesley Faulkner (02:14:54):
Slight correction pay ING.

Leo Laporte (02:14:57):
They're still paying them. Oh yeah. ING. Oh, oh yeah. Oh, they're still doing it. So targeted victory. Here's some of the emails, for instance, the Washington post got a bunch of internal Facebook emails and targeted victory emails. Here's one targeted victory quote needs to get the message out while meta is the current punching bag. Tiktok is the real threat, especially as a foreign owned app. That is number one in sharing data that young teams are using, oh my God. This is for, I hear

Dan Moren (02:15:30):
Really down on, on rock and roll too. That's

Leo Laporte (02:15:33):
Right.

Dan Moren (02:15:34):
Those kids today with their rock

Leo Laporte (02:15:36):
And the staffer replies bonus points. If it could fit this into a broader message that the current bills and proposals aren't where state attorneys, general or members of Congress should be focused yet pay no attention to all that problem with Facebook look over there to so they still pay.

Wesley Faulkner (02:15:58):
Yeah. They've and this is not just a one thing they've been clients or the Lord. They they've been the they've Facebook's paid them for several years. This is not something new. They just deploy 'em as needed.

Leo Laporte (02:16:09):
Here's one, a dream would be, get stories with headlines, like from dead to danger. How TikTok has become the most harmful social media space for kids

Dan Moren (02:16:21):
That was a lifetime movie

Leo Laporte (02:16:25):
To danger. We actually that they planted a story in local story here in Petaluma, that kids were doing something on TikTok, some sort of door knocking thing where they would listening to a song and they would kick the door and then run away. And there were stories in the local news. There were stories in the local paper. Teens could get shot be because people will think they're intruders and doors might get damaged

Christina Warren (02:16:55):
In Petaluma,

Leo Laporte (02:16:56):
In Petaluma. And I, and I asked Henry and I asked every kid I knew, have you seen these videos? And what are you talking about?

Christina Warren (02:17:05):
Well then, then it probably comes out that like actually the rumor probably so it on Facebook more than likely 

Leo Laporte (02:17:11):
Yeah. Who knows? I mean regardless, I don't think kids, same thing with tide pods. Apparently. I didn't know this. We were talking about this on Wednesday on TWiTg and the whole Joan Donovan who studies this stuff at Harvard said the whole tide pod thing was made up. Nobody's eating tide pods. That was probably Facebook spread in misinformation or somebody who knows.

Christina Warren (02:17:34):
Oh, I think that, I think there were a number of I think that was people just like having like, oh, what about the children outrage? Like they saw some people doing some stupid stuff on YouTube and, and, and immediately like took it like 10 levels beyond where it should have been, which was like, okay, obviously don't eat to liquid soap. But, but, but, but, but, but instead of just kind of doing that, like it became like this whole like moral panic, like, oh no, the kids are doing weird things on the internet. It's like, yeah, of course they are. Yeah. Like what? Like are, are, are you new? Like, that's kind of what kids do. Always. They always do weird things 

Leo Laporte (02:18:07):
In October

Christina Warren (02:18:08):
And a lot of times they, they wanna troll the else. They wanna trick

Leo Laporte (02:18:11):
People. Yeah. They're doing it to make more stuff as yeah. Cause they're doing it cuz the adults are going, oh my God. Oh

Wesley Faulkner (02:18:15):
My God. Yeah, exactly.

Leo Laporte (02:18:16):
Right on. That's called for the lows in October. Can't

Dan Moren (02:18:19):
Wait for, to circle back to Dunson dragons again. That's all.

Christina Warren (02:18:23):
Yes.

Leo Laporte (02:18:24):
You, you Satanists doing the Dungeons and dragons thing. Oh my God. In October targeted victory worked to spread rumors of the slap, a teacher TikTok challenge, by the way, the rumors started on Facebook.

Christina Warren (02:18:41):
Right. Which is the best part. Right?

Leo Laporte (02:18:43):
In local news telling a local news report on the alleged challenge in Hawaii. So this is what they did. This is they're very smart. They go to these small local TVs to were desperate for anything. They, they sent him an electronic press kit with video. They run the story uncritically and suddenly it's news. And if you're lucky it can spread.

Wesley Faulkner (02:19:06):
And that hits their to demographic, which are people or older people, older watching news or hearing about things or like, this is the only thing I know about TikTok is this one story you see on the local news.

Christina Warren (02:19:18):
Exactly. Well, but, but not just them also like local, you know senators, you know like, like the guy from 

Wesley Faulkner (02:19:26):
Cause they're filming the calls from these constituents that say I

Dan Moren (02:19:30):
Do, right? Yeah.

Christina Warren (02:19:31):
I just saw that there are litter boxes now in, in, in the classrooms cuz kids are dressing up as cats. It's like,

Dan Moren (02:19:36):
Yeah, right. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:19:38):
That was a funny one. Wasn't that H

Dan Moren (02:19:40):
Hysterical

Leo Laporte (02:19:41):
People believe anything stunning.

Christina Warren (02:19:46):
It's it's it's like, okay. Just, just, just ask some questions. Cause I'm sure there's probably one person on TikTok who was doing really weird and dumb stuff. Yeah. But is it a trend, like, are we at like west Elm Caleb levels of, of horror and, and, and everyone just not being able to act like adults or is it, and, and also keep in mind that was grown women not teenage. So, you know, some of the worst stuff we've seen on TikTok has actually not been the kids at all. Or is this just like, you know, ridiculous things that, that someone who claims to be a cop is spreading on in a Facebook group that then gets people up in a tizzy. And now Facebook, I have to say, they're the, the team that they're hiring to do this. It's pretty smart actually to then, you know, gen up the local media and, and other, you know people on a hair trigger and be like, have you seen this? This is, this is gonna blow your mind. Definitely. You know, put this on the news,

Leo Laporte (02:20:38):
Please. Folks coming,

Dan Moren (02:20:39):
Coming back around to Jack Dorsey's idea that this was all a mistake.

Leo Laporte (02:20:43):
Yeah, exactly. I

Dan Moren (02:20:45):
Buying that now mind,

Wesley Faulkner (02:20:47):
I keep track of all the current trends of what the kids are doing by listen to rocket. So thank you, Christine.

Leo Laporte (02:20:52):
Oh, you oh really? Is that where you go? Is that yeah. So, so Christina Warren, Brianna woo. Simone Del, I love singer her name. Simone Del they're the experts on what the kids are up to.

Wesley Faulkner (02:21:05):
I had no idea about this west west Elm thing until like I listened to the podcast. I was like, what's

Leo Laporte (02:21:11):
I learned about the sweater from them. What's the west Elm thing.

Christina Warren (02:21:15):
Oh, there's this, there's this guy who dated a number of women on you know, it was on Tinder. And, and honestly it was a dumb thing. Not

Leo Laporte (02:21:24):
The Tinder, not the Tinder swindler. No another one. No,

Christina Warren (02:21:27):
No, no, no. This wasn't even a SWER. This was just a guy who maybe made the mistake of talking to a number of girls at the same time when he was not in an exclusive relationship. Ah, and his name was Caleb. We worked at west El and basically somebody made a TikTok, it went viral. Then people wound up boxing, this poor guy harassing him. There were like hundreds and thousands of, of like tos being done. Everybody's talking about it. It was actually are pretty terrible. And again, this was all like women in their twenties who definitely should know better. And like, oh no, a guy is dating two women at once. Like, am I supposed to be upset by this? Like

Leo Laporte (02:22:01):
I love the Tinder, subed it. I read the Tinder. Subed it religiously. Just so I can think. I'm glad I'm not on the dating scene anymore. Right.

Christina Warren (02:22:09):
It, you can go through this and you're like, God, this just be so exhausting to have to be

Leo Laporte (02:22:14):
So exhausting at this era. You people and the,

Wesley Faulkner (02:22:16):
The person on TikTok didn't want to out this person. So she had code names for her dates. And so she named that, that she met this guy. That's how

Leo Laporte (02:22:27):
And she called him went.

Wesley Faulkner (02:22:27):
That's how yes. And that's how, oh, he got, he got the code name and then people understood and kind of figured,

Leo Laporte (02:22:34):
Figured it out. It was. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the moral is pick better code names.

Christina Warren (02:22:39):
Oh, well the moral, this is is to not like, I don't know, like not doc put a mob after people. Not, yeah, exactly. Not doc somebody, because you know, he went on a date with you and a date with someone else. Like, I don't know, grow up, but, but also I think the moral is like, don't believe every viral, horrible thing you hear, like ask a question first, cuz sometimes it might be true. And in that case then, then we can all like have a, a elongated discussion about it. But if it's one of those things that absurd, like kids are knocking on it's it's like, okay, you know like, like people putting razor blades and apples, has anyone ever actually wasted the Halloween candy ever?

Leo Laporte (02:23:14):
Yeah. All that stranger danger stuff. It turned out the, the real danger was your uncle. Yes. Yeah. The guy, you know anyway. Yeah. you know what? The real Moria, this is the listen to rocket on relay.fm/rocket. That's the real moral of this. You guys should do a call in Christina, Brianna Shae. I was told that my teacher watched kitty litter in the classroom so she can dresses a cat. Is that true? And then you could debunk it. It would be good. Yeah. That'd be good. I think a calling version of

Dan Moren (02:23:50):
Someone needs to,

Leo Laporte (02:23:51):
If you wanna do it, Christina, let me know. I have the technology. Okay. We can do it here. We got to. Okay. I

Christina Warren (02:23:57):
Love

Leo Laporte (02:23:57):
It. We got the phones, the leftover from the radio show. I am not sure I will do this. Waymo says fully driverless rides are coming. San Francisco. Would you get in a car where there's nobody else in the car and just

Wesley Faulkner (02:24:13):
Coast riding the whip

Leo Laporte (02:24:15):
Exactly. Coast R I think, do you think we're ready for this?

Dan Moren (02:24:23):
No,

Christina Warren (02:24:24):
No, I, I love it, but I don't

Dan Moren (02:24:27):
About self-driving cars. I just, I, I find it. I, I, as you know, it's been many, many years since I've been employed as a programmer. I did do that very early in my career, but I feel like as, as all of us are people work in technology and knows what go, you know, we know what goes into people, designing software. It just immediately makes me more. I have this wrong running argument with my best friend from college. He's an ER doctor. And he is like super bullish on the future of self-driving cars because he sees a lot of idiots come in in car accidents that have gotten themselves, you know, either because they're drunk or they're looking at their phone or whatever. And he's like, look, computers have to be better than this. And I understand where he is coming from. But as somebody who works with computers all day, I think to myself, computers are stupid. They're really dumb.

Dan Moren (02:25:17):
And I just don't. I have the confidence levels in it. So that's just, I, I'm not convinced. I mean, I think the, the adding the, the safety features that they have done over the past several years to driver, you know, cars with drivers, I think has been a really positive thing. And I think there are definitely some cases where self-driving cars work, you know, could be really beneficial, especially on highways long drive. It's a, but I live in Boston. There's no way a self-driving car is gonna be able to navigate Boston streets. I'm sorry. I will put money down on that. It is a mess, right?

Leo Laporte (02:25:53):
Oh, Boston, Tesla can't drive Boston.

Wesley Faulkner (02:25:56):
No one right now Tesla has the name brand of self-driving and it has a horrible reputation. I remember the first time I got into a friend's self-driving car it was tin girl mijo. And we were, she showed me her the screen and it showed the lines and the lines were doing this. And this is where the car, I was like you don't know where the line is like I am no, that let's not do self. It is just one of those things where it's just like, I do not trust it. And so in order for people to then gain that trust that you're gonna need to tell more than saying it's self-driving, they're gonna have to say, this is the technology we use. This is how far we've come. This is all the mitigation that we have done. And here are the use cases where it's optimal.

Wesley Faulkner (02:26:43):
Here's some that is not optimal, so people can really understand how it works, what it's good for when it's not good for, which is the part that really needs to be defined. So people can understand does this just like the bad reviews on Amazon, if you are using a hair dryer and a bathtub and it doesn't doesn't work and you got shocked, you know, like I don't use a hair dryer in the bathtub. Don't I know that it'll be fine. Yeah. So there needs to be a clear, clear understanding of when this does work and where it fails and they need to be upfront about it before people can start trusting it.

Leo Laporte (02:27:13):
Yeah.

Christina Warren (02:27:14):
Yeah. I think that's a great point. No, I, I don't drive. So I would love in theory, I would love this because I would love to be able to have a car that just drives me around that I don't have to bother with, but like I like Dan was,

Leo Laporte (02:27:25):
But you're also the only person I know has been run over by a bus. So,

Christina Warren (02:27:28):
Well, it was hit by a car and thrown under a bus. Okay.

Leo Laporte (02:27:31):
But there you go. But,

Christina Warren (02:27:32):
But, but, but the self driving car probably would've, but, but that probably would've would've stopped. Right? Like I think that the, the, the LIDAR there would've been paying attention to the road and not his phone, like the person who hit me regardless, like true.

Leo Laporte (02:27:45):
I that's a perfect example. You're right.

Christina Warren (02:27:47):
It is actually like, and I feel like I, I have hopes, I think the technology is going to come around. Are we there yet? I don't think we are, but I actually think that the Wesley, I think what you said was perfect, which is there are going to be some use cases where I think this would really work. Like, I think that on large stretches of highway where we know exactly what's going on, and we have a really clear vision on this, I think that it could be really good. And in that case, like, this is one of the reasons why big trucking has been one of the areas where they've experimented the most with, with self-driving cars, cuz you could drastically change how much you can deliver things by, you know, not having to always have like a, a human man car that, that, you know that the hours that the truckers do already are, are, you know, pretty brutal, but this would allow even more things to, to happen in that way. But in, in places like Boston or in other places where like, you know, you might have difficult to kind of I guess predict traffic patterns or you have a lot of like pedestrian mix in where people don't always follow the, the correct rules. I don't know if it's the right avenue for that.

Leo Laporte (02:28:53):
And then there's the tweet from Elon yesterday. There will come a time in the future where people will be surprised. We let practically anyone, two ton death machine anywhere they want.

Christina Warren (02:29:04):
I mean, he's not wrong. He's not,

Dan Moren (02:29:06):
He's not wrong, but he's he's

Leo Laporte (02:29:08):
He doesn't have the answer the wrong angle. Yes. Yeah. He's hoping we'll have the answer there.

Dan Moren (02:29:13):
There's a lot of, you know, there will be a lot of people who from the, the bike advocacy or public transportation advocacy, who would say the exact same thing. Yeah. They're just coming at it from a very different side of things. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:29:25):
Let's see, what else is going on? I maybe we'll take a little quick break cause it is getting late and I don't want to keep you guys too late, but one more break and then we'll wrap it up with our esteemed panel, Christina Warren and Wesley Faulkner. And Dan Warren. It's really fun to hang out with you guys on a Sunday evening. Our show today brought you by podium. I think one thing we learned during the pandemic is that people don't wanna talk on the phone. They want a text. Texting is great. There aren't enough hours in the day to waste time playing phone tag. And if you're a, a business owner, you know the list of customers, you need to reach out to isn't getting any order, especially as business starts to get better. That's why local businesses, everywhere. Turn to podium podium makes every interaction as easy as sending a text.

Leo Laporte (02:30:12):
So everything that makes your business great can be, get done faster. I remember leaving the dentist. I was so surprised as I was going out the door. I got the text, which I always love your appointment is scheduled for the, with, you know, if you're do it on the iPhone, I just click the link and it adds it to my calendar. And then a text saying, leave us a review. If you had like our service awesome, by the way, a great way to get reviews on Yelp or Google or wherever by just texting your customer. As they leave much more likely to respond. If they've had a good experience, podium can collect money. You can pay your bills with podium. You can make bids more and more. I don't call contractors or repairing people or plumbers. I just text them. And the one that answers the fastest is the one's gonna get the job.

Leo Laporte (02:30:58):
And generally the one that answers fastest is the one using podium. A single inbox means it's easy to respond. All your employees will like it. It's not just a better way to communicate. It's a better way to do everything, not just gathering your views and collecting payments, but marketing your customers. It's all as easy as pressing send. There's nothing comes even close. So you'll, you'll be in touch with your customer better. You can also put it on your website, which is great. And again, the single inbox means you don't have to deal with a lot of different inputs. You can handle it all in one podium inbox. You'll not only free up time. You'll grow your business. You'll get more done with podium of closed deals with customers before the competition. Even as a chance to call 'em back, join them more than a hundred thousand businesses that already use podium.

Leo Laporte (02:31:43):
I bet you, you know, a few businesses that do in your neck of the woods, they streamline their customer interactions. And you know, what many of 'em are doing it free. That's right. And get started free. P O D I u.com/TWiT. If you sign up for a paid podium account, you get a free credit card reader. So either way, whatever works for you, there are some restrictions of course, podium, P O D I U m.com/TWiT. It really is the easiest way to stay in touch. And you know what? As speaking its customer, it's the best way I FARP for a text message from a business. I don't wanna call an email, forget it. Never. I'm never gonna see it. So don't even don't even bother. Hey, we had a great week this week on TWiTtter. You wanna watch a promo too bad? You're gonna hear it's funny. I, I don't know if other people are noticing it, but I have just really noticed that everything and the stress levels are much higher. There's a lot of tension interactions. Oh, giant animals are appearing,

Mary Jo Foley (02:32:44):
Giant cats

Leo Laporte (02:32:45):
Taking over. And

Mary Jo Foley (02:32:47):
I

Leo Laporte (02:32:47):
Think honestly your, your frame rate went down quite a bit. About five minutes ago, was SRA sleeping on the vents again? Yes

Joan Donovan (02:32:54):
He was. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:32:55):
So SRA is a great way to test throttling and laptops

Jim (02:32:58):
Previously on TWiTtter security. Now

Mary Jo Foley (02:33:02):
I completely agree that Casper ski has never given us any cause to mistrust them. That's a misdirection. I think that misses the point where they are is the point

Jim (02:33:18):
IOS today,

Mikah Sargent (02:33:19):
Rosemary or, and I thought it was time to pull out some accessories, some gadgets, some gizmos that we've been using for our iPhones, our iPads, all of our devices. It's accessory time on iOS today.

Jim (02:33:33):
This weekend, Google,

Joan Donovan (02:33:35):
The moment that you are searching for something online. And you're, you know, is the moment where you're most susceptible the missing for, because you're in you're information seeking mode. And you know that you don't know. And that's where the companies play an an incredibly important role.

Jim (02:33:53):
Twit some assembly required

Leo Laporte (02:33:57):
Wonderful week. And we thank all of our our hosts and our contributors had a lot of fun. I will end with this product. I want somebody to use this on the next TWiT, the Dyson headphones, that double as an air purifier. If you really wanna scare people, as you're walking around, get the Dyson zone, air purifying headphones with active noise cancellation, get over here.

Dan Moren (02:34:25):
Yes, exactly. I was going, I was going like a Sy Lord or something that I looked at too. That's also pretty solid.

Christina Warren (02:34:31):
I like that. You're over here. That's like

Leo Laporte (02:34:33):
That's Cray Cray. That is wild. All the prototypes that they've been working on. It's interesting that the one they came up with, by the way, I wish they had released this, cuz I would've worn.

Christina Warren (02:34:45):
Totally.

Leo Laporte (02:34:46):
It's got a tube and all sorts of

Dan Moren (02:34:48):
That's very retro, very,

Leo Laporte (02:34:49):
Very retro. They, they sort of cleared it up. They actually were. They tested this in Beijing where the air quality is. So ABIs of all you do need these. So maybe I shouldn't mock this cuz there are places where, you know, it's like smoking to pack a day.

Dan Moren (02:35:05):
Still mock it a little though. Cause it looks ridiculous. You know,

Leo Laporte (02:35:13):
I, I, I will never knock innovation. I probably won't buy any of, of them. But Dyson zone

Christina Warren (02:35:21):
You, I mean, I mean, I, I wouldn't, I wanna mock it, but I also realized I just did the math. I've spent like a thousand dollars on the, the air wrap and on the hair dryer. There you go. Actually, actually, no, I've spent more than that cuz I got my sister, the air wrap as well. So I, I can't even like, I, I wanna mock this. I also know what I've spent money on. So

Leo Laporte (02:35:42):
Actually Lisa loves her hair dryer. I I haven't

Christina Warren (02:35:44):
Seen, oh, her best.

Leo Laporte (02:35:45):
I should get the air wrap. That's interesting.

Christina Warren (02:35:47):
Yeah. It's great. You like it? They're both great. Yeah. I got the air wrap first and because it also includes like kind of a smaller version of the hair dryer. And I liked it so much that when they had like a, a sale, I got the the hair dryer air as well. And it's so much faster. And like, if you have long hair they have different attachments and stuff. It's it's really good. And it makes it so smooth. I have to say, like, I never thought that I would spend that much money on hair dryer stuff, a plus plus seen

Dan Moren (02:36:14):
With this. Do anything for me? Could I, could I

Leo Laporte (02:36:17):
Way no,

Christina Warren (02:36:18):
No. For you, if your wife though, it might be one

Leo Laporte (02:36:21):
Of those things. It's the perfect wife, wife gift.

Christina Warren (02:36:23):
Oh, 100% wife, girlfriend, like, or, or anybody who has like longer hair, like

Leo Laporte (02:36:28):
There's no blades. It's just a, it's one of those tunnels that just blows air somehow hot air, but you, yeah. So she has this she's apparently really likes it. So yeah, maybe I'll get her the the wrapper. That's good. Always thinking Christina, still in the shoe market. What are you, what are you buying these days?

Christina Warren (02:36:47):
Yeah, still in the shoe market. I haven't bought anything recently. I think the, the it's been kind of a quiet shoe read for me the last couple months. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:36:56):
You no longer have to help people get PlayStation fives or Xbox series Xs. I know you.

Christina Warren (02:37:00):
I know exactly

Leo Laporte (02:37:00):
Doing a lot of that. Yeah,

Christina Warren (02:37:02):
Yeah, no, no. Now finally, and, and graphic square prices are going down too. So finally I'm like, okay, hallelujah. I'd have to do this. I know. Right. Yeah. It's only been however long. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:37:10):
Oh, I always like to keep up though on your shoe purchases, I guess I'll have to the rocket relay.fm for rocket and look for, are you gonna do videos for GitHub?

Christina Warren (02:37:19):
Yeah. Yeah. So I don't have any up yet, but if you wanna go ahead and go to youtube.com/github, there will be videos coming very soon and we're gonna be doing a lot of content, so it's gonna be great.

Leo Laporte (02:37:30):
Is there any move to get you to do an introduction, to get just the tech, the commands, all that you,

Christina Warren (02:37:36):
I, I think that I'm not sure. I think that would be really good though. I think that's a really good idea. I'll bring that up. GI hub

Leo Laporte (02:37:42):
Next week, an app that's supposed to, you know, make it easy, but I think ultimately it's good to understand the command lines and how I use it as a command line.

Christina Warren (02:37:49):
Yeah, no, I do too. And, and and I mean, I, I, it's funny because actually before I even joined, like, I've been think about creating some sort of course about like, like using, you know, get and version control in general for like, for, for non-technical roles. That'd be nice. Get mark down because there are a lot of people who I think could really benefit from it, but who are doing things and especially like, like, like a like technical product managers and people like that who might be working with engineers, but aren't you necessarily doing the coding themselves, there can still be a ton of benefits of, of using ver control stuff. So I'm, I'm hoping to do something around that. I

Leo Laporte (02:38:26):
Do like that idea of using GI for nonprogrammers other ways like novelists or your dot files or whatever. I mean, it's not just programs.

Christina Warren (02:38:34):
Yeah. It's not it's. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's a, that's a good idea. I'll bring that up and see like what, where they are in terms of their kind of introductory content. There might already be people doing things like that. I don't know, but that's a, that's a really good idea, but yeah, we will be doing, doing videos and, and you know, of course always highlighting community projects and whatnot. Oh, I will plug this real quick a show that I had done on a, a Microsoft called the download which was kind of like the developer news of the week. We were actually going to be bringing that over to the have YouTube channel. It'll, it'll, it'll be expanding it scope a little bit, be more, you know, open source stuff. And, and so the, the, the tenor might change a little bit, but the, the same aisle and same sort of thing will be, will be coming,

Leo Laporte (02:39:19):
You know, as an open source fan. I am thrilled that you're at GitHub. I think that is a perfect match for you. Thank you. Youtube.Com/Github, github.com. Honestly, don't tell 'em this, but the free tier is really great.

Christina Warren (02:39:35):
It is. It's fantastic. You

Leo Laporte (02:39:36):
Don't really need the for it. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I have a lot of public. You have to have public cert, I think you only have a limited number of private repos.

Christina Warren (02:39:44):
No, it's unlimited private repos.

Leo Laporte (02:39:45):
It's unlimited private and then, okay. So yeah, so really lot of fun

Christina Warren (02:39:50):
For most people, most teams, even like the free plan is, is great. If you need more the get, have action minutes or some other things, there are some reasons to pay. But for, I mean, honestly at this point, like I've, I've paid for the, the like professional, like pro plan, like $48.

Leo Laporte (02:40:07):
I did for a long time and I

Christina Warren (02:40:08):
I've done it for the last few years and I, I honestly, they, now I don't have to because I, I get it for free, which is nice, but, but, but I was doing it before just cause I was like, well, I'll, I'll do this to support it in the back of my mind. Well, right when I say that, and then I'm like, okay, but it's owned by, you know, like you start like trying to like do the

Leo Laporte (02:40:26):
Ization. You don't need the money. Is that what

Christina Warren (02:40:27):
You're saying? That's what I'm saying. Right. Kind

Leo Laporte (02:40:29):
Of, I wanna support him. I love GitHub actually use them. I use a GitHub gist for my open PGP proof. So there's all sorts of things. You can, you can use it for, it's just amazing. Yeah, really good. I'm really glad to see you there. Thank you so much. Thank you. And I'm always glad to see you here. Thank you, Christina Warren, appreciate same for you. Wesley Faulkner, thrilled to have, have you on headed community single store. Is it single store.com?

Wesley Faulkner (02:40:57):
Yes, it is single store.com.

Leo Laporte (02:40:58):
And if you're a developer and you're looking for a good database, the database for the data intensive era, you need single store. And if you want to join the community, this is the guy right here. Wesley Faulkner. It's great to see. Yeah, I

Wesley Faulkner (02:41:13):
Believe we, we're still doing 500 free $500 worth of free credits. What

Leo Laporte (02:41:17):
In new

Wesley Faulkner (02:41:18):
Account? What? So you don't need like a, a registration code or anything like that, but you

Leo Laporte (02:41:22):
That's nice

Wesley Faulkner (02:41:23):
Start playing with it.

Leo Laporte (02:41:25):
Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I wish I had some use for data. I'll have to find some data and store it there.

Wesley Faulkner (02:41:35):
Well, you have you there's data sets to play with. Oh, so you can just

Leo Laporte (02:41:39):
For data science database kind of thing. Yeah. So if you wanna just

Wesley Faulkner (02:41:42):
Start tinkering, you can, you don't have to worry about pushing your own data.

Leo Laporte (02:41:46):
You can. I have, I

Wesley Faulkner (02:41:47):
Load example data sets.

Leo Laporte (02:41:48):
I, I, I have been IM probably going apostate, but I I've been a long time li and fan, and I'm finally gonna break down and go back to Python because of all the data stuff. And I think maybe I'll be playing with your, your stuff.

Wesley Faulkner (02:42:03):
And if you're, if you've heard or you currently use my SQL, it's my SQL wire compatible. Oh, so it's a drop in replacement for if you're using my SQL.

Leo Laporte (02:42:12):
Oh, I've used my SQL for years. Very nice. Thank you, sir. Great to see you. Thank you. Do you have do you have a Kamodo dragon or anything behind you, anybody in the room with you? No, no, no. Large

Wesley Faulkner (02:42:25):
Liz less animals, unfortunately. Oh. But I do have a podcast I would love to promote it's currently pinned to my TWiTtter account. So if you go to TWiTtter.com/wesley 83 I have a passion, not just for animals, but also with advocacy of neurodiversity and neurodiversity in the workplace specifically. And I was lucky enough to be interviewed for a podcast talking about that. And so I really talk about my journey, personal journey through the space as a person who has had challenges with getting accommodations at work. Nice. So I th it, the, this podcast is very well wide ranging in talking about if you're an HR professional, or if you're an employee, how you can get some of the service, you need to get the accommodations to make sure that you know, neurodiversity and, and that topic is kind of still just beginning to grab hold. And people are really understanding what it takes to make a place more inclusive for people like me. And so I, I so I talked about it in that podcast is really close to my heart. So I really hope that I can help spread the awareness. And one personal giant win was that the department of labor picked this up and included it in their newsletter. This was

Leo Laporte (02:43:42):
Nice, really

Wesley Faulkner (02:43:42):
Big. So it's pretty awesome.

Leo Laporte (02:43:43):
This is from P works future of work podcast. And it's again on Wesley's TWiTtter, which is TWiTtter.com/wesley 83, w E S L E Y 83. Yeah. If it weren't for the neurodiverse, we would, this would, we, none of the stuff we enjoy would be around to be honest all the greatest thinkers, poets, scientists, and artists in our society have been neurodiverse could has by their nature. They think out of the box they're

Wesley Faulkner (02:44:15):
This specific show would be 25% less people

Leo Laporte (02:44:18):
Right there, right there. Exactly. Thank you, Wesley. Always great to see you really, really appreciate it. And Dan Mor, so nice to see you. Six colors.com. You also write for Mac world, and you do a little writing on the side. You got a little novel in the lower drew of your desk, or two or three, the next, too many, too many. Do you write every day?

Dan Moren (02:44:44):
I try to, I actually, this year I was struggling a bit during the pandemic, but I found something that worked for me great this year, which is every weekday. I do a thousand words in the morning smart. And it's like, it's not like a ton, like I know people do more than that, but like, that's a, it's something I can hit. It's something I can hit every day. Yeah. And it's really worked basically. I haven't missed a day since January 1st and I feel, I feel great about that.

Leo Laporte (02:45:05):
I think that's how you get good at anything. You do it every day, you know? Yeah. It really helps. And of course, clockwise, and there's a, a kind of, some change is going on a clockwise eye here. Am I right? Is that a secret?

Dan Moren (02:45:18):
Don't know, what have you

Leo Laporte (02:45:18):
Heard? Oh, nevermind. I don't know. I know nothing Dan and Micah do a great podcast where you get four people, four deck, doc tricks and 30 minutes. It's kind of the opposite of TWiT.

Dan Moren (02:45:31):
Yeah. It's I, I think it, we distill it, you know, and, and I, you know, I sure it's tough for Micah to like bounce back and forth between those worlds of the shows where he can spend a long time talking about stuff in the shows where he is gotta hit that hit that mark. But it's that show's been a lot of fun. We we've done that. It's awesome. A long time now, and we really enjoy it. Really

Leo Laporte (02:45:50):
Great show. I was on it once and I've had a very different back to anything in this much time. Wait, what are you nuts? Re another great relay FM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Dan. Good luck with the book. If you go to de moreen.com, you can pre-order, it's coming volume three of the gala galactic cold war or whatever it is, the galactic cold war. So saga cycle series series. I don't wanna call it. Oh, I like saga saga. Good. Cycle's good too. It's got a good expansive sound. Yeah. It's the cycle. Well, if you, you write a hundred of them, you know, you'll be a cycle. I don't know what it'll be. I write a hundred of them. I, I might be dead. It'll be something. Thank you so much for being here. All, all three of you. We do TWiT every Sunday around about 2:30 PM.

Leo Laporte (02:46:45):
Pacific five, 30 Eastern, 2130 UTC. You can walk live on a Sunday evening. I just go to live.Twit.tv. There's audio and video streams there. Chat live with us@ircdotTWiT.tv, or join us if you're a member of club TWiT in the discord. We not only chat about shows in the discord, but club TWiT members talk about all kinds of things, including coding and an anime crypto movies, TV music. It's really a great hangout. That's in fact, one of my favorite places this is a perfect example of what a community can and should be $7 a month gets you ad free versions of all of our shows, access to the discord, the trip plus feed, which shows we don't even put out like our titled Lennox show that's available on the TWiT plus feed Stacy's book club. Paul Thra ask me anything which we did earlier.

Leo Laporte (02:47:38):
This week is up there. Jeff Jarvis is coming soon. Aunt Pruitts, our community manager. He's been doing a great job. So please go to TWiT.tv/club. Twittter really helps us out and join club TWiT. The thank you for being here get your show@TWiT.tv. Of course after the fact, all of our shows are available on demand, TWiT.tv on YouTube. Every show has its own YouTube channel. And of course you can subscribe in your favorite podcast player. If you do have a podcast player that lets you leave reviews, we're competing really hard with clockwise and rockets. So you please leave as a five star review. We're desperate, desperate. We'd appreciate it. You know, I think is it next week or the week after the 17th anniversary of the founding of the TWiT network? 17 years. Wow. Oh my gosh. Hmm. And Ashley and our marketing department said we're gonna have a big party. Right? I said, talk to me in three years, we'll have one on, on the 20th. We'll do a, we'll do a big party. So thank you everybody. We'll see you next time. Another TWiT for 17 years, I've been saying this another TWiT amazing

Credits (02:48:50):
On the, doing the right, doing the baby, doing the, doing the.