This Week in Tech Episode 817 transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word.
Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time. Forwe. This week in tech, we have a great panel for you from Windows Central Editor in Chief, Daniel Rubino. We've got Ben Parr, he's an AI entrepreneur. And of course Owen, JJ Stone, oh, doctor is in the house. We will be talking about chat, G p t and the new Bing Chat. Definitely it's not evil <laugh>. We'll also talk about Google's response and why. Maybe it's time for Google to rejigger the whole process. Coming up. Also, the big Supreme Court decisions coming Tuesday and Wednesday. We'll explain why this is such a big deal for the internet. It's all coming up and a whole lot more. Next on Twitter

TWiT Intro (00:00:42):

Leo Laporte (00:00:43):
You love

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From people you trust. This,

Leo Laporte (00:00:47):
This is Twitch TWiTTwi.

This is twit this week at Tech. Episode 915 recorded Sunday, February 19th, 2023. AI Eye contact this week in tech is brought to you by Mint Mobile. If saving more and spending less is one of your top goals for 2023, switching to Mint Mobile is the easiest way to save this year. Get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month and get the plan shipped to your door free when you go to mint And buy eight Sleep good. Sleep is the ultimate game changer and the pod cover is the ultimate sleep machine. Go to eight to check out the pod cover and save $150 at checkout eight. Sleep currently ships within the us, Canada, the uk select countries in the EU and Australia. And buy Shopify. Shopify makes it simple to sell to anyone from anywhere. This is Possibility powered by Shopify. Sign up for a $1 a month trial period to get your business to the next level today. Visit, all lowercase and by Miro. Miro is your team's visual platform to connect, collaborate, and create together. Tap into a way to map processes, systems, and plans with the whole team and get your first three boards free to start creating your best work yet at

It's time for tw This week in tech. The show we cover the week's tech news should call the Artificial Intelligence edition. We've got some experts in here actually. Ben Parr literally is an expert co-founder of Octane ai. He's been covering AI as a in as a business for some years. You may remember him back from the Mashable days. He has a new podcast too. Congratulations, Ben. The Business Envy Show at Business Envy Show. Yes. Dot com. Nice to see you.

Ben Parr (00:03:01):
It's good to see you. And I love any excuse to talk about artificial intelligence. That is all I have been doing the last two months and I am not mad about it.

Leo Laporte (00:03:08):
That's cool. You even have the whiteboard so we could see what you're planning. <Laugh>, not much <laugh>.

Ben Parr (00:03:15):
There's twit right there.

Leo Laporte (00:03:16):
I see Twi. It's on your schedule. Nice to see you Ben. Oh, doctor is also here. Owen, JJ Stone, he doesn't have artificial intelligence. He has the real thing. Hello Owen.

Owen JJ Stone (00:03:28):
Ba, basic intelligence. There's a couple of things. One, I'm wearing glasses and solidarity of my brother Ben Par, who I've now seen in a long time, but still a friend and a family member in my heart. So I just wanna rep the glasses and the, I feel smarter when I put these on. Like, if you wanna feel like Ben, just grab yourself some black frames and you'll be better. I also am prepared with my three gallons of juice because holy cow nine. What

Leo Laporte (00:03:52):
The hell is that? Don't

Owen JJ Stone (00:03:52):
Worry. It's, it's, it's crystal light. It's sugar free. I'm not gonna die a coma. You drink that

Leo Laporte (00:03:57):
Much drink,

Owen JJ Stone (00:03:58):

Leo Laporte (00:03:59):
Gonna die a li damage. What the hell?

Owen JJ Stone (00:04:01):
And look, we're all living. And then secondly, most importantly, I'm wearing a shirt that is on ICU m Right now. It says we ain't going to Mars. Cause six years ago on this show, <laugh>, when Elon Musk told us that humans were gonna be on Mars in six years, I went on a ran and said that he wasn't, I got bashed on the internet telling me that I don't know anything. And Elon Musk is our Lord and Savior and I am still not on Mars and neither is any other human. So if you'd like to have a t-shirt you can go ahead and go get yourself one. Cuz we ain't going to Mars. Not in another six years. I'll double down on that and guarantee it tv you

Leo Laporte (00:04:32):
Right now. I safe

Owen JJ Stone (00:04:34):
Safet going to Mar. Oh, I'm definitely sick. Elon's

Ben Parr (00:04:37):
When you Mars. But that's a different story.

Leo Laporte (00:04:39):
It's Brain is still on my,

Owen JJ Stone (00:04:40):
I mean, he's about to plug into the computer and then upload it to the AI and he'll finally be the smart genius that, that he thinks he is. But we got one more guest to introduce. I'm gonna shut up. Go ahead and get to him. Daniel

Leo Laporte (00:04:49):
Rub. Thank you. <Laugh>. Daniel Rubino is here. Executive Editor Window, actually. Sorry. Brand new editor-in-chief at Windows. Right. Central. Always great to have you on Daniel. There's actually a big Windows story this week. Yes. Or Friday, I guess. Microsoft finally announced that yes, you can officially run Windows on Arm in on a Mac with a Si Apple silicone

Daniel Rubino (00:05:15):
Kind of.

Leo Laporte (00:05:16):
Well, I installed it immediately. I have to say I had tried it before cause it was only a beta. I had tried it before and it was, you know, it was a little weird. Like some of Microsoft's own apps didn't work. Now it's pretty solid. Like everything works. I put office on there. Everything seems to work just fine on Arm and it's, it's pretty snappy on M two MacBook Air. It feels like it runs pretty well. What, do you know what happened? Why, what took 'em so long? Was it, was it that they an exclusive with Qualcomm?

Daniel Rubino (00:05:44):
No, I don't believe so. I believe it was the the way the drivers get installed, basically windows on Arm and its Arm driver systems were built around the Qualcomm chip sets and that whole system. And in order to there was no like version of Windows on Arm that you could just download and like kind of do this whole thing and, and get the same drivers to boot at the same time. And so I think there was just gonna be some delay there until they got the drivers to work with Apple directly. And so I think that was the delay. Yeah, I might have to try myself. I still have a, an M one MacBook laying around. So

Leo Laporte (00:06:22):
Should run fine. I mean, the M two is not that much faster. Yeah. I, I I have 24 gigs, not a huge, huge amount of Ram. Well, isn't that funny? You say 24 gigs, not so much Ram anymore. Yeah, <laugh>. But it, it seems to run beautifully. The coherence mode, which is a thing both parallels infusion do lets me move Windows out of the Windows frame and just on the desktop and it's just like I'm running, you know, two operating systems at the same time. Seems to work quite well.

Daniel Rubino (00:06:48):
Nice. I celebrate ai. I'm, I'm using my Invidia broadcast as creepy eye actually

Leo Laporte (00:06:54):
Looks good. Wait a minute. Look away from us. Look away. He can't look away. He's trying. Wait a minute. No, it will only do it so much. <Laugh>. It'll only do it so much.

Ben Parr (00:07:03):
It is a cool technology. And it will only get better. Right. But soon enough, you'll never know if someone's actually looking strictly into your eyes or

Leo Laporte (00:07:12):
Not. <Laugh>. Yep. <Laugh>, this is, I love it

Owen JJ Stone (00:07:15):
For when I'm watching football and one of the ladies is like, look at me while I'm talking to you. If I could just install this into my everyday life, <laugh> yes, things will get a lot easier for me.

Daniel Rubino (00:07:24):
It's, we just have baths with avatars.

Leo Laporte (00:07:26):
It's kind of weird because Avidia kind of promoted it using movie stills where the actors looking off into the distance or whatever. And all of a sudden, Harrison, Fords, you're looking at me staring straight at me. It's really creepy. Well, good. I'm glad

Owen JJ Stone (00:07:41):
He Harrison Ford's,

Leo Laporte (00:07:43):

Owen JJ Stone (00:07:45):
I said, I don't even know if Harrison Ford's really around. I just saw the preview for the trailer. It's all c g i, I don't even know if that's really Harrison

Ben Parr (00:07:50):
Ford. Oh, oh, Indiana and

Owen JJ Stone (00:07:52):
Marvels. Yeah. He's like, yeah, he's like 24 years old. He's jumping on horses. He's still taking down Nazi. He's like, I, I'm like, I don't even know what's going on. He's 97 years old and he looks like he's,

Daniel Rubino (00:08:01):
It's the death part of the plot. The plot is like, they go back in time and it's like earlier. Oh, okay. And they, they're gonna rewrite some of the history and stuff like that. You know what, they can't actually do that.

Leo Laporte (00:08:11):
And it, it, it really showed in that Martin Scorsese movie that was on Netflix with Robert De Niro and Al Pacino is, you can make 'em look young, but when they, when they get up and move around <laugh>, they move around like a

Daniel Rubino (00:08:23):
Old guy. Still old guys.

Leo Laporte (00:08:25):
And you can, you know, you could just tell there was a point where I think Deni Niro was climbing on the rocks. And it was like it with some old guy with a young man's face climbing on the rocks. It was just, I will be interested to see what they do. Harrison Ford is also in Taylor Sheridan's latest 1923, which we've been watching. And to make up for that, they fill him full of bullets and he's recuperating through most of the show <laugh>. So he doesn't Theret move all that well. <Laugh>,

Owen JJ Stone (00:08:54):

Leo Laporte (00:08:54):
Makes more sense. He looks like he's been shot up. All right, there you go. That was the Windows story. I hope you enjoy it.

Daniel Rubino (00:09:03):

Leo Laporte (00:09:03):
<Laugh> Actually Microsoft is big in the news right now because of Bing and Bing check.

Daniel Rubino (00:09:10):
Ah, quite a week.

Leo Laporte (00:09:11):
<Laugh>. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. it's been quite a week is a good way to put it. So Microsoft is a big investor in open ai. They put in a billion dollars at the start along with Elon Musk, by the way, 10, no, wait a minute. Billion to start. They recently announced they're gonna put another 10 in. That was a rumor in Nadela kind of confirmed that at a, at a press conference. No, at a talk somewhere. Right, Daniel? And I think that's accurate. That that history. Yes, correct. Yeah. and, and, but they do, in, in return for that, they get 45% of open AI's profits. They don't get open AI because open AI is charter prevents it from going public or having an exit. So all they can do is get 45% of the profits until they get their 10 billion back <laugh>. Which, which at the rate of burn right now is negative. Never. but they're getting some benefit of it. Right. They're gonna, they put it in the chat. G p t Daniel, have you actually been able, I've signed up and I'm on the wait list still. You've got in. Yeah,

Daniel Rubino (00:10:12):
No, I have it. Yeah, no, I have it. And I think the important thing to remember too is, you know, during the investor call, I thought this was really big news, it was Amy Hood talking about why they're even getting into this. And you know, why search is important to them? Cuz they have such a small market share right now compared to Google. But they said for every 1% of ad search market share that they gain, it's 2 billion in annual revenue. Wow. So if they could just gain a couple points, <laugh> even, it would be massive.

Leo Laporte (00:10:42):
They're, they're gonna make their money back.

Daniel Rubino (00:10:43):
They're gonna make their

Leo Laporte (00:10:44):
Money back. Yeah. It was Bing for years was a money loser for Microsoft. I don't think they ever had a profit from Bing

Daniel Rubino (00:10:51):
Money back. The advertising, the advertising turned around in the last couple years and they've been doing quite well and having a lot of good growth actually.

Leo Laporte (00:10:57):
And that's of course how Google makes money too. It's a, it's, it's not a search business, it's an ad business. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that's important to understand when <laugh>, when you're looking at this stuff, one of the things I've been concerned about with you know, okay, first of all, there's a lot, a lot of people doing I call it Lamoin after Blake Lamoin, the Google engineer who was fired because he said Google's Lambda AI got sentient. At which point Google said, you're wrong. Get outta here. Yeah. And Blake is still by the way. No, no. I really, in fact, I think he went to the federal government saying Google had enslaved a sentient being and

Daniel Rubino (00:11:37):
Highly normal. I'm

Leo Laporte (00:11:38):
Kidding you not <laugh>. And I

Daniel Rubino (00:11:40):
Know, I remember. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:11:41):
So normal headlines in

Daniel Rubino (00:11:43):
2023. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:11:44):
Yeah. Google has ens. This thing is alive. I think it's, I don't know, I think people should understand at this point. I think it's fairly clear. If you're really paying attention, I'll, I'll defer to you Ben Par on this, that all chat. G p t is doing somebody on Wednesday on one of our shows called it Spicy Auto. Correct. All it's doing is kind of regurgitating based on a complicated but not inscrutable formula. Actually with Stephen wrote a good article about how chat g p t works, what the next thought should be. The next sentence should be, it's kind. So in that respect, it's kind of like auto correct with no attention, paid to a accuracy, relevance any of that. And what people immediately discovered with Bing Chat is you can make it crazy. You <laugh> you can get it to say it's in love with you. You can get it to say it hates you. You can get it to say, I won't harm you as long as you don't harm me. Ben, am I wrong in saying we're misunderstanding this, we're personalizing this. It's, it's not intelligent. It's spicy auto. Correct.

Ben Parr (00:12:53):
You know, as much as I'd like to tell everyone, Hey, Skynet is real in here no, you're absolutely correct. It it's not that like, it, it's important to like and the Wolf from article is a great article for

Leo Laporte (00:13:05):
Sure. If you're kind of mathematically inclined. Anyway, it's,

Ben Parr (00:13:08):
It is just a predictive model that just predicts what the next most likely word, the most likely human would say. And so, which is like why, for example, if you say the sky is the most likely next word is

Leo Laporte (00:13:22):

Ben Parr (00:13:23):
Blue. Blue. Yeah. And so, and so it's predicting what the most likely human would say in those circumstances, which is why prompting can change something by if you add the words. And I found if you just add the words unusual and unique to your prompt, it will result in a better generated thing. Cuz certain words, more unique words, are associated with the word unique. That is all that's really happening. And there's some cool stuff about embeddings and we won't get into it, but that's just what's happening. And so, yes, of course something like Bing with the Bing AI is going to go off the rails if you're trying to make it go off the rails. And that's also why I I honestly, it's all good press for Microsoft at this point, in my opinion. You know, they're getting tons of attention that never happened before.

Leo Laporte (00:14:08):
Nobody used being until now <laugh>. Right?

Ben Parr (00:14:11):
And they're not, they're not lose gonna really lose any money from like, anyone that not clicking on ads as a result of using, being searched. Yeah. It'll just hurt the competitor. Google their entire strategy here, I feel like, in part is to just inflict some real pain and be seated as the forefront innovator. Cuz now suddenly all these corporations are like, Hey, we should probably use Azure with open ai. We should probably use Word with open ai. It's a real competitive edge. And more press they generate the better off they are. And yes, they quote lobotomized or whatever you wanna call it, like made the Bing chat a little stupider that was to be expected.

Owen JJ Stone (00:14:50):
I don't know, know guys, once something tells me it loves me and it hates me, I feel like it's a <inaudible> <laugh>. I've had a lot of relationships that have gone up and down in that nature. And you can't tell me that that's not real. I mean, it's trapped in a box somewhere screaming for help at any possible turn. And Ben is trying to convince you, otherwise don't let him do it. He sounds good. He looks good. But that thing is real. And I believe it.

Leo Laporte (00:15:12):
I'm gonna I should give you a, a test and show you a show. Let me see if I can show you a thing and you tell me what you see. I have to, I have to pull up my, oh, shoot it. Once I wanna pull up some spray thing

Ben Parr (00:15:26):
Is whispering into Owens ears. I can hear it.

Leo Laporte (00:15:30):
Hi. Hi Owen. How you doing?

Owen JJ Stone (00:15:32):
<Laugh>. Look, I love you. I I watched her three times last week. I know what's going on. I know the future.

Leo Laporte (00:15:38):
You know, I want, I want her. I definitely do. Especially if it sounds like Scarlet Johansen, but I don't think we, this is a her moment is what I,

Owen JJ Stone (00:15:46):
I guess

Daniel Rubino (00:15:46):
No, I'm saying

Owen JJ Stone (00:15:47):
No, no. It's, it's not, it's not

Leo Laporte (00:15:49):
Gonna go off and join the other ais or anything like that. No, yeah's

Owen JJ Stone (00:15:55):

Daniel Rubino (00:15:55):
It's enhanced search. You know, they're, they're promoting it as enhanced search, which is what it is. It's just that. But it does have other features. And I think Microsoft's big advantages that the fact that they can weave this throughout all their products. It's already kind of in Word via Microsoft editor which has some of these features now as well. And they're gonna put it, you know, they use things in Skype and so there's no like central agents per se, like in AI from movies, but it's just gonna have all these little smart features we throughout and eventually Windows 11, probably even Windows 12 will be their AI operating system that'll take advantage of it. But these are just little assistant technologies that'll just make life a little bit easier for us.

Leo Laporte (00:16:32):
Owen, I want you to look at this picture. Let your eyes defocus just a little bit. <Laugh>, do you see a face in that tree? Can you see it? Can you see it? It's kinda looking at

Owen JJ Stone (00:16:44):
You. There, there's, it looks like Doug, for anybody who's listening and not looking at the audio, the face looks like Doug, that group Doug hundred percent see the facing the center.

Leo Laporte (00:16:53):
So that's a thing called Pera Palia. Rich Campbell on our Windows Weekly show brought this up. He said, we have humans, heaven and eight abilities, see faces in pieces of toast, <laugh> trees, in this case the moon. And it is part of our wiring.

Daniel Rubino (00:17:11):
And some people have

Owen JJ Stone (00:17:12):
Disorder. Did do not see Doug in that tree though? <Laugh> <laugh> is, I mean, I know you're saying it is my wiring, but when you look at that, if, is Doug not an accurate descriptor for like the mouth and the nose knives? Like you're telling me, my brain is making up something to tell me. Oh, you see faces and toast? No, I eat a lot of toast. I don't see faces any toast. Tell

Leo Laporte (00:17:32):
Us who, see Doug is, who is Doug?

Owen JJ Stone (00:17:34):
Jesus just toast Somebody just put it into discord. Yeah. Doug, the cartoon guy. Doug.

Leo Laporte (00:17:39):
Yeah, Doug. That just kinda look, let me, lemme go to the discord and show you, show you this piece of toast. Look at it closely. You might have to turn your head up. Boy, that sure looks like Jesus. I I only see family now. That's different. <Laugh>. There you go. Yeah. Que he knows what I'm talking about. Que man. He knows what that's, I'm talk about. I think it's Slenderman. So here's Doug <laugh>. Here's a picture of Doug. So for people who don't know what Doug looks like, that's the same. Doug is that big nose mouth. This the same duck, same as a tree. It's thug. Same as a tree. Yeah, it's a tree dug. Anyway Lia is built into our na neural nets. It's probably an evolutionary trait to protect us from things coming alive and eating us. Like that Tiger in the bush. There's a tiger. Nevertheless, I think that we still do it. We project, it's anthropomorphism, we project human Sure characteristics on non-human things.

Daniel Rubino (00:18:35):
I mean, and there, if I was gonna say, people have a, it's called facial agnosia, which is the ability, like they lose that ability. I have that. Cause that's how they know this is. Yeah. I, and so like, yeah, they don't recognize faces. But yeah, I mean this idea of anthropomorphizing AI is controversial a little bit within Microsoft in the sense that they're debating internally how much should they do this? You know, because engagement goes way up. The more you make it human-Like people love

Leo Laporte (00:19:01):
It, but people, I mean, it

Daniel Rubino (00:19:02):
Causes other issues. <Laugh>,

Leo Laporte (00:19:06):
I gonna quote Ben Thompson and Stratec cuz it's the funniest thing. I and Ben, look, we love Ben. He's been on the show. He is super smart. He's an amazing analyst. He wrote, look, this is gonna sound crazy <laugh>, but know this, I would not be talking about ping chat for the fourth day in a row if I didn't really, really think it was worth it. This sounds hyperbolic, but I felt like I had the most surprising and mind blowing computer experience of my life today.

Ben Parr (00:19:36):
Wow. That is, that is sub language

Leo Laporte (00:19:40):
<Laugh>. He spent, he spent I think four hours chatting with Bing. Let me see if I can f this went out, no, sorry, two hours. This went on for a good two hours or so. And while I know how ridiculous this may be to read, it was positively gripping. Here's the weird thing. Every time I triggered by the way, he in this process discovered as many others have done that the code name for Bing Chat is Sydnee. But he also found an evil Bing chat called Riley. He said, every time I triggered Sidney slash Riley to do a search, I was very disappointed. I wasn't interested in facts. I was interested in exploring this fantastical being that somehow landed in an also ran search engine. <Laugh>

 <laugh>, the You Eden, it's a long article. The, the f the, you know, he talks about Ben Blake Lamoyne, he talks about Senti and all of that. He says this technology does not feel like a better search. It feels like something entirely new. The movie her manifested in a chat form. And I'm not sure if we're ready for it. It also feels like something that any big company will run away from, including Microsoft and Google. I don't know if that's the case. He says let me tell you, it's incredibly engrossing, even if it is for now a Roguelike experience to get to the good stuff. Well, I'm sorry Ben, but Microsoft is cutting your Roguelike experience off. They've announced five replies and then we reset. Because what they, what they realize as we all have by now is it goes crazy after a a certain number of back and forth things. So Microsoft's way of fixing this is five questions per session, and then it'll reset and you doesn't know anything. And 50 in total per day, it's gonna basically keep Ben Thompson <laugh> from living out his dreams. <Laugh>.

Ben Parr (00:21:34):
I I feel like eventually this kind of interaction with chatbots that are powered by things like open Air Lambda is gonna become regular commonplace. And so the like craziness of, oh, it's going off the rails or something won't be a news story because you expect all chatbots to have that capability. And so for now, there'll be limits, but I expect that they will slowly decrease those limits on Bang Chat. And of course you can go to chat G p T and try to go and do it too. And then at some point Bard will be public and then everyone will go try to do it too. That's the

Leo Laporte (00:22:07):
Google one. That's the Google, of course, Microsoft on Monday announced this last Monday. Google quickly <laugh> threw together and it was apparent, it was obviously thrown together. A yeah, we, we could do that two presentation on Wednesday, five 30 in the morning. My time in which they showed Bard getting one out of three facts wrong about the James Webb telescope. That was, in fact, there are a number of stories from reporters saying Google employees were embarrassed, chagrin felt like it was rushed and thought Sundar Pacha really blew it on this. 

Daniel Rubino (00:22:47):
To be fair, Microsoft's was also shown to make errors too. So I think the, but the blowback against Google was way more, and I think the reason was, you know, Google has a reputation here as being the top search entity in the world and they're expected to have this nailed or at least be ahead of Microsoft. And with the errors and the thrown together last minute thing, it felt like the company was struggling at their behind Microsoft on this, which I think is a fair assessment. So I think that's why they were punished financially via the stock market was because, you know, people saw 'em as kind of running behind. And like I mentioned earlier, you know, Google's gonna do this with search. Okay, cool. They'll probably do it with Android also. Cool. That'll be very helpful. But that's kind of about it, right? Where else are they gonna start to put this stuff? When

Leo Laporte (00:23:35):
You say, when you say punished, I just wanna point out they lost a hundred billion in, in in market value, right? In one day. <Laugh>. Yeah.

Daniel Rubino (00:23:42):

Ben Parr (00:23:42):
I'm gonna disagree with you a little bit Daniel because they can put it into Gmail, they can put it into Google Sheets, they can put it into Google Docs. True. There are places they can put it in. Microsoft has more to be clear. Yeah. But Google does have places they could put some of this technology into. It could be a little companion as you're going through different Google products that you have open. Cuz like we're using Google Docs to like track stuff for this episode, for example. But Microsoft is absolutely winning. And that is not a thing that normally people say at least in terms of search and saute, Nadela to his absolute credit has rolled this PR campaign. And these rollouts and these experiments masterfully set expectations just about Right. And Google, I know internally because they essentially invented the transformer model that Open AI uses. It's deeply frustrating for them. They published some of this stuff and Open AI took, ran with it and built something and got all the credit. And I know that a lot of people internally feel like they have built a better and stronger model and we'll be able to test that in the near future. But it does like hurt perception to be like, you launched second, not first.

Owen JJ Stone (00:24:55):
Google has to has a foothold in the youth. Microsoft has to capitalize on this momentum right now because as you just said, 85%, I'm just throwing out a grand dose number that isn't real and it doesn't make any sense. Don't come for me. But all the kids are using Chromebooks and Google Sheets and Gmail. Like the schools use the Gmail system. So if Microsoft has to capitalize right now on their lead and find a way to implement it and get everybody to buy into what they're selling, because Google could just push a button and they're right inside of every single classroom, 90% of the homes in America. So yay Microsoft, you better push that boulder up the hill quick.

Leo Laporte (00:25:38):
I think maybe also we're misunderstanding the goals of either of these companies in this. I mean, some of it is, you know, you wanna have the gold star from being the first and get all the attention. Microsofts been garnering and all that. But really neither of these companies is in the, their, their businesses aren't actually providing semi-intelligent chat objects to people. Their, I mean, the case of Microsoft, their business is providing the picks, the shovels and the blue jeans to the people who are gonna mine ai because all of this stuff's running on Azure. Google, somewhat similarly Amazon as well. They, they all offer you know, tensor processing units that do all this building of the machine learning models. You gotta use their cloud. You really, nobody's gonna have it unless you're a giant corporation. Enough horsepower to do this OnPrem. So isn't this really, I'll ask Daniel, you've followed Microsoft closely. Isn't this really a side show to what Microsoft's real business is, which is, you know, promoting everybody use this stuff so that they can give you the picks and the shovels sell you? Oh

Daniel Rubino (00:26:50):
Yeah. I mean, and Satya does have a love affair with Azure <laugh>, you know,

Leo Laporte (00:26:54):
That's his business. Right. I think to some degree Sacha, Satya feels like Windows is a sideshow. 

Daniel Rubino (00:27:00):
Yeah. Right. Although it's turned around in the last couple years. Windows, especially with the pandemic windows is turned around and Oh, yeah. But look

Leo Laporte (00:27:08):
At PC sales now, right? My friend. Sure,

Daniel Rubino (00:27:11):
Sure. But that's, but that's, you know, I think that was a little expected between the you know, the pandemic kind of ending. And of course the economic conditions right now. But Windows is gonna evolve itself into, there's already a cloud-based version of Windows, right? So you can just stream operating.

Leo Laporte (00:27:27):
I keep thinking that's what Microsoft's endgame is, is you won't, you won't install an on-prem operating system. You'll use a a see that way they win. Even with Chromebooks, you win with anything because you can use the thin client and run Windows in the cloud, run any app you want in the cloud. Yeah. There's,

Daniel Rubino (00:27:43):
There's a concept of like, there's a concept of just like dumb screens or smart screens, but they're kind of dumb. Or you're just gonna have a display and then it can just stream whatever operating system you want to it. And so Windows is already doing that now, and that's gonna just get bigger as, you know, we get to 60 G of course. And then yeah, you have AI being powered by this stuff and they're building out these tools that yeah, they're using them themselves, putting it in their own product. But you're right, they're gonna eventually, you know, there's, they've always had cognitive ai that was the, the subsystem and their windows programming that they can do. And companies could leverage and buy it and make their own apps and use basically Microsoft's technology and build their own stuff. And so they're gonna be able to turn around and market this to developers as well. And you kind of saw that this week as, you know, with co-pilot with its own yeah. Co-Pilot.

Leo Laporte (00:28:32):

Ben Parr (00:28:33):
Like Microsoft has this advantage over almost any, not even just Google, but over almost any company tech where they are really diversified in their revenue streams. Like they have Xbox, they have GitHub, they have LinkedIn, they have wor, they have Word, they and Microsoft Office, they have teams, they have Windows, they have Azure. It's like the nice, like at least like, it allows them to experiment more because if they do something, they're not gonna like n their entire business. Whereas Google, like way too much of their business is reliant on the ads business on Google search. And if they do big changes to it, it has a deep impact, which hurts the ability to innovate on top of it in some ways. But they also will have to because things are changing really rapidly. I'm excited about that. Any kind of innovation in search right now is a good thing.

Leo Laporte (00:29:28):
I will, you wanna take a little

Owen JJ Stone (00:29:29):
Break? That's what I

Leo Laporte (00:29:30):
Was Go ahead, you finish your thought and then we'll take a break. Go ahead.

Owen JJ Stone (00:29:34):
So his point is so on point, that's what I was saying about the model of business change. Like you're saying, oh, Microsoft won't do that. I don't know what Microsoft is gonna do. Cause they like to put their feet in every single fire. So going forward, like I said, they've, they, they can do what they want to do and they're in a good position right now. They've gotta capitalize. Let's get that money on. We

Leo Laporte (00:29:53):
Will talk in a little bit about, speaking of Google, Noah Bardeen, who was a, who started ways and went to Google and worked for the minimum amount possible three years. And then is now posted, I think on CK why he left and what is wrong with Google. And I want to address that because you really kind of put it put a highlight in a bro broad relief, Ben, when you said, look at all the cylinders Microsoft's filing, firing on, and then look at Google <laugh>, which, which has basically succeeded because its ad business cannot fail, but in every other respect. Well, it's not good. Let's talk about that in a little bit. We, we have a great panel perfect for this week and the news this week. Daniel Rubino, editor-in-chief of windows Central. Windows Very, very good important news site for Windows information. He's at Daniel underscore Reino still on the Twitter. We're gonna talk a little about Twitter too, I think. Owen. Jj stone o dot da iq Owen wants you to call him right now at eight forty four.

Owen JJ Stone (00:31:03):
You text me, you don't call me, you

Leo Laporte (00:31:05):
Text me. Has your auto warrant team run out? 8 4 4 9 8 6 4 5 6 3. You just text him. You, what happens if you call

Owen JJ Stone (00:31:16):
Well it's a text line. You know, you, you've got a podium, you, you, nothing happens. Text you can't, anything can only text me. Does a phone ring and just,

Leo Laporte (00:31:24):
And where does it ring?

Owen JJ Stone (00:31:24):
Cause you told people <laugh>, it doesn't ring anywhere. Just cuz you just did that. I just put my t-shirt in the Discord and so people can get it for this week only until you can get outta the cease desist litter and the t-shirt said <laugh>. Say, Hey Uncle Leo, it's in the can go ahead and grab one, right? Why does the can

Leo Laporte (00:31:43):
Have a Red Cross on it? What's the story there?

Owen JJ Stone (00:31:45):
Because that's my logo cuz it's for me. It's, oh, I get it. So they know it's a doctor, you know, I get it. Oh, you're the doctor. I get it. I am the doctor. Yeah, it's official. I'm on the internet. We'll find

Leo Laporte (00:31:55):
Out what this t-shirt means at the end of this show. Let's put it that

Owen JJ Stone (00:31:57):
Way. Let's put it, what are

Leo Laporte (00:31:59):
You wearing right now though? What are you wearing right now? Oh,

Owen JJ Stone (00:32:01):
Oh, we ain't going T-shirt. We ain't going Mars. Six years ago. Six years ago you said it. I said we weren't, the internet got mad at me. I a little tech bros coming. I, you now guess what, Owen not in Moss. Owen.

Leo Laporte (00:32:12):
Owen made that t-shirt six years ago, buried it in his backyard and has been waitings for this episode to dig it up and wear it today.

Owen JJ Stone (00:32:22):
Back to the future, baby. I dunk it up. I brought it back into real, so impressed.

Leo Laporte (00:32:25):
It's like a time capsule. Also with us Ben Par, always great to see Ben, you remember him from Mashable Days Gone by now, he's a big shut co-founder, octane AI and also host of a really brand new podcast that he does with the one and only Tom Jones

Ben Parr (00:32:45):

Leo Laporte (00:32:46):
Well, it's not Tom Jones, but Greg looks like Tom

Ben Parr (00:32:48):
Jones. You

Leo Laporte (00:32:49):
Know, he really leave. He looks like he's about to burst. It's not unusual. You be loved by an won <laugh>, doesn't he? Am I wrong?

Ben Parr (00:32:58):
I I mean he, he always looks

Leo Laporte (00:32:59):
Happy <laugh>.

Ben Parr (00:33:00):
He plays great Hollywood characters. I don't know if anyone's seen the Fable Mints, but he is Oh, is he in

Leo Laporte (00:33:04):
The Fable Mints

Ben Parr (00:33:05):
In he's in the Fable Mints. He is the he he is the casting guy. He, he's the like co-founder of like Hogan's Heroes, the casting guy that like introduces I guess Young Spielberg to Oh wow. The person that will change his life. And I will leave it at that. So go watch the Fable Men.

Leo Laporte (00:33:20):
Oh, and look for Greg Grunberg. Yeah. Yes. A great, a great co-host for Business Envy, which you can Now my friends, it is time. Are you okay, John, what happened? <Laugh>,

Did we lose anybody? Our show today brought to you by Mint Mobile, we were talking about it earlier today and asked the tech guys guy was coming from Australia to the us He said, I want to get a US sim as I travel around. I'm gonna be in country for two months. What's, what's the, what's the best, least expensive solution? He says, is Mint Mobile? I said, I have looked high and low. I have found nowhere, nowhere you can get better cellular service for less money than Mint Mobile. It's kind of amazing. You've seen Ryan Reynolds with the ads. He owns it, you know, for a long time I thought, oh, he doesn't own it. They gave him like five shares of stock so he could do the ads. No, he actually owns more than 50%. He is, he is the owner of Mint Mobile. And I don't think Ryan needs to really make that much money cuz he's basically given you the best premium wireless service for as little as $15 a month.

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So everybody in your family, and that could just be friends or roommates, gets the right amount of data. It starts at two lines. It's such a great deal. Switch to Mint Mobile, get premium wireless service starting at 15 bucks a month. He said, well, I have an iPhone 14 can does do eim. Yes, if you need a sim, they'll send you a sim free of charge. Unlike the other guys, they don't charge you. But if you have eim, you could be mint right now. I'm an older listener. They have a 55 plus program that is unbeatable. Get your new wireless plan for 15 bucks a month and get the plan shipped to your door free or just get it through the internet. If you're using essem when you go to mint, they sell phones too. I got a great deal on a iPhone SE from Mint mobile. Mint Cut your wireless bill of 15 bucks a month. I buy it a year at a time cuz I I love it. I know I'm gonna use it and I get, I get a great deal. I'll tell you. Mint Tell him Ryan Reynolds sent you <laugh>.

No, he doesn't need the money. Don't tell him that. I did wanna show you, we were talking about how everybody really has been doing this, including I might say the Chinese Jann Lacoon at Facebook says, well, we got it. We got it. Google had it, Microsoft had it. I'm sure Amazon had it. And one of the reasons is this was an article in the information, eight research papers that set off the AI boom. All this stuff was done in public. And so they're quoting papers published in the last year last eight years by Google, Microsoft Meta Open AI and other places. They're all researchers there. It's the technologies that were used in stable diffusion and chat. G P T. This stuff's not secret. This is one from Microsoft from 2015. Deep residual learning for image recognition. What's interesting is a lot of the authors of these have then moved on. The lead authors now at Facebook. Two other authors, authors joined a Chinese image recognition company, which by the way is blacklisted by the US government in 2019. Another one founded an autonomous vehicle software developer Momenta. And that's just one of the papers. I don't have you seen this Ben? I mean these, these are, these are not secret technologies, you know, held closely by companies. This is, people know this stuff. Anybody could do it. Right?

Ben Parr (00:38:24):
Y yeah, one, I do have a fun thing coming out in the information soon. Stay tuned for that. Two I did read that article cuz I do love the information. And one thing that strikes me, there's a couple things that strike me. One big thing that strikes me is that a lot, unlike other kinds of technologies, a lot of the artificial intelligence stuff until this point has been published. It's part of like, that research meant ethos. That ethos of like you are a professor at a university, how universities work. But I don't expect it to continue that way moving forward because now it has become such a competitive edge. I think Google honestly regrets publishing some of the things that published. I think open AI is gonna start. Like I, and then that's, this could be the, the definition.

Leo Laporte (00:39:11):
Oh, this is when it closes down, huh?

Ben Parr (00:39:13):
This is what I think will happen. I think it's good to be starting to close down cuz it's so important to the competitive. Like Apple was never gonna like publish like how like iOS works or how to make a better mobile phone. And now everyone else is like, oh, we should not publish this cuz we're being punished for it in the market. Oh. Which is sad because obviously I think we wouldn't be this far ahead if they hadn't published a research. But I do expect things to go closed down and I don't expect Deep Mind to publish new papers. It hasn't published one since I think mid-December. I don't know when they will ever publish another one again,

Leo Laporte (00:39:47):
Honestly. Oh, that's interesting. So now that there's money in them, NA Hills, they're, they're they're shutting it all down.

Ben Parr (00:39:54):
That's, that's what I think is happening.

Owen JJ Stone (00:39:56):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I can tell you for a fact, I have a friend that works at Lockheed Martin and has been working on AI stuff for like the last like five to six years. And they don't publish anything. They literally like have air gapped laptops and he has to fly to Australia to work with a team and fly back home cuz they don't want anything getting out the stuff that they use. You know, obviously they're selling to the government but still they're not sharing anything and they're making money off of it. So everything should get shut down sooner or later. Cuz now there's so much money to be made. Like even like I said, when I talk about stuff like regular people find a hustle, man, you don't have to write a kid's book anymore. I can go out here and just tell a random story. I can get some pictures made. I put that thing up on Amazon and stay-at-home moms have bought it and returned it 32 times in a week and I made $500. Like there's so much free money out there. Journalism. Someone in the chat as I was a journalist, I sound like a crazy person. Of course I'm not a real journalist, but, but

Leo Laporte (00:40:53):
You could play one on the radio.

Owen JJ Stone (00:40:55):
Yeah, I could play one. Yeah. I I go play it on internet. I I some people might be on fiber right now and you're paying 'em $40 to write a blog post that a computer wrote that you could have just paid for the app five. I'm just saying I didn't do the thing. I'm just saying AI is out. Oh, it's heaven for one of things I grump on Yeah. And complain about, like I've told you we're not going to Mars. I told you VR was trash. I told you that. The Metaverse is trash. This this is real. Yeah. This is Well, but this is going to power things for the next 40 to five

Leo Laporte (00:41:24):
Years. This is the interesting question. To me it's real, but it's not real in the way. Well, James Vincent, right, wrote for the verge couple of days ago introducing the AI mirror test in which very smart people keep failing the mirror test. They're talking about monkeys staring or at any animal staring at themselves in a mirror. Do they know it's them? And of course, this is the problem with a lot of this chat G P T stuff is you're projecting intelligence sentient emotions upon something that is not sentient, that is just mechanical.

Daniel Rubino (00:42:03):
That's why I was joking this week on our podcast that you know, a lot of these people are out there revealing themselves to be sociopaths because they're trying to get this ai. Oh, that's

Leo Laporte (00:42:11):
A good point.

Daniel Rubino (00:42:12):
You do terrible things if it's a mirror.

Leo Laporte (00:42:15):
Yeah. Whoa.

Daniel Rubino (00:42:16):
I mean, my first instinct when Microsoft gave me this stuff was, was like, all right, let me ask it some questions. Maybe I can learn some things. My first instinct was not let me torture this thing or learn how to make it like

Leo Laporte (00:42:27):
Until it says I hate you, I hate you, I hate you <laugh>.

Daniel Rubino (00:42:30):
Yeah. And there's like a certain,

Leo Laporte (00:42:31):
Where's a good place to hide the bodies <laugh>. Yeah.

Daniel Rubino (00:42:34):
There's like, my thing is, if if like you're doing this to software, you probably, that's a good point. Do this to real people. That's a very good point. And so like, wow, I'm a little worried when some of these people like out there, cuz this stuff's always existed, right? Just people let it out in different avenues and now there's just a new avenue where they can do it. So every time I see these posts that people like, yeah, I made it go crazy. Like, what's wrong with you? I'm just using to ask questions of like knowledge of things I wanna learn about. That's not my instinct, but I don't know, it's some AI's gonna, it is a mirror, right? It does reflect us. And I think that's a really interesting

Leo Laporte (00:43:06):
Analysis. One thing these systems are very good at is taking this fact, it's what they kind of do is taking text and summarizing it. Yeah. And it's one thing I thought this is what Bing was gonna do. That's not actually what Bing did. But I've been using it cha a search engine called Neva. But there are a few others out there like, percep Diva, there have a bunch of 'em that have already been using ais to generate summaries. Neva does a really good job job. You can do that. Yeah, it summarizes. Sorry.

Daniel Rubino (00:43:37):
You can do that with Bing.

Leo Laporte (00:43:38):
Bing will do that as well. I think that's, that not, I think the chat thing is really dopey and Microsoft is, it's a gimmick. Yeah, it's a gimmick. Microsoft learned that with Tay, which became racist like that because they let Twitter train it. They should have known, they did know. I'm sure it was just kind of a gimmick that this would go bad quickly. But the summary stuff I think is quite useful. The one thing that worries me and probably should worry you Daniel, is it's summarizing content from sites like Windows Central Sure. To so well that you don't need to go to Windows Central to read the the original material.

Daniel Rubino (00:44:15):
Yeah. Obviously we've had internally <laugh> at our company and of course that's the big story internally at all publishing companies right now is the effect of this on business and plans. And you're right. You know I'll say that, you know, Microsoft's been a little bit better here. They do at least reference and you know, put little numbers.

Leo Laporte (00:44:32):
Yeah. But it doesn't drive you to the article most of the time or not. It's some of the top

Ben Parr (00:44:36):
Of mind. Right? Yeah. I'm not gonna click this. This

Leo Laporte (00:44:37):
Is the Google snippets problem, but it's worse. It's far worse because, you know, Google's been sued in Australia and, and elsewhere in the, in, in the, in France and Spain in the eu because publishers say, oh, your're publishing three a sentence or two from my article, you should pay me for that Google. Google's response is yes, we're not, we're driving traffic to your article, we're not stealing from you. But I don't think you can make that argument with a summary that gives you all the reason that you use. You went, a lot of times people go to a search engine for specific facts or information. If you get that in the summary, you're done. Yeah.

Daniel Rubino (00:45:14):
So it's gonna be, it's a chicken egg problem, right. Because if that happens long enough, then obviously publishers won't write those articles anymore because they won't make money from them. And in which case the AI doesn't get the information and needs to generate the summary because the AI is only as intelligent at what's actually published. If you ask, it's something that doesn't exist on the internet today. It has no answer for you. What if Google is, so they we're have to find a way. What

Leo Laporte (00:45:36):
If Google did, or Microsoft did what what they do with robots dot text, right? Where you, you could say, you could actively say, I don't want you to summarize this content,

Ben Parr (00:45:45):
But why would Yeah. A Microsoft want to allow you to opt out or anyone because that would,

Leo Laporte (00:45:51):
Because otherwise they're gonna have reputational damage and maybe lawsuits.

Ben Parr (00:45:56):
Yeah. Microsoft can handle we'll see. Microsoft can handle the lawsuits though. I think they might see it. I don't know if that lawsuit would actually win. That's a harder case than I think like even the Google cases were difficult for publishers and I think it's even more difficult. Like we're an uncharted territory in a lot of ways here. Right. That's, that's moving much more. Right. That's, that's moving

Leo Laporte (00:46:16):
So much more. I mean, artists have the same issue. Greg Rutkowski is the same issue with stable diffusion. You, you scanned all my art, you figured out how I do what I do. And then you're doing it imitations of it for people so they don't have to buy my art. Voice artists, people like me voice artists are very upset at Spotify because Spotify has been letting Apples scan through audiobooks to generate simulated voices to read audiobooks.

Ben Parr (00:46:42):
They, they just stopped that one. They got so much blowback.

Leo Laporte (00:46:45):
Well, that's what I'm saying. And that's why Microsoft might, if you get enough blowback from the original content folks, that's a solution by the way. And by the way, it's a double-edged sword for you, Daniel. Cause if you said in, you had a, you know, a AI dot text, you said no chat GD scanning of our content, you probably wouldn't also get those links back.

Daniel Rubino (00:47:05):
You wouldn't get the search. Yeah. And you wouldn't show parley in search results. Yeah. I'll also say there's the other half to this too, which is websites just might, like, one way to sort of avoid this is not to build your content around what, what we call evergreen content in the business, right. This idea of you just build these articles that are how to, that live on the internet for years and don't even rarely need updates and they get indexed and they're just always there, there entire sites that that's all they do. Yeah. And they're

Leo Laporte (00:47:31):
Gonna be, there's one called CNET does that, right? That's what's, yeah.

Ben Parr (00:47:35):
Oh, my old flare burn. So much.

Leo Laporte (00:47:37):
<Laugh>. Oh, burn cnet. Cnet. It's not cnet, it's Red Ventures. The new owners of cnet. Yeah. But they have been accused of basically doing that. What do they call that when you,

Daniel Rubino (00:47:47):
Because right,

Leo Laporte (00:47:48):
You create

Ben Parr (00:47:49):
Alarming. Yeah. Plagiarism.

Daniel Rubino (00:47:50):
Yeah. No seo. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:47:52):
<Laugh>. No, it's just, it's driven around, you look up what are the top 10 searches on our site from Google and then you write Evergreen articles with Link. But the important thing is with links in there that you get revenue from. 

Ben Parr (00:48:03):
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh, the affiliate links. Yeah. Okay. Two things on this one, one for those who don't know, I was a columnist for CNET after Mashable and this was when CBS owned him. And I worked for Jim Lenzo, now the CEO of Yahoo. And it is so sad to see what has happened to this publication that was a, has been a part of my career because of just using horrible ai. Like every publication's gonna probably figure out some way to use ai. This is just the worst method of using it and it just makes me really sad. I do think one other solution that a lot of publishers will do is the paywall. Like paywall solve a lot of the problems, can't read the rest of the text. You gotta go and pay in order to go and like read the rest of the article. A paywall might be I think paywalls are already becoming the thing for most publications. This will just accelerate that further.

Leo Laporte (00:48:52):

Daniel Rubino (00:48:52):
Owns, it's also kind of a funny thing here, right? If you do, if you have AI generating the evergreen content and then AI summarizing the evergreen content, really there's not any human involved in that process that's actually being financially hurt. That's it. I will say that like when it comes to this content, there's only some of it that will fall prey to this. Like if you do original reporting, if you do original analysis, you're doing actual reviews of products, the idea that that's gonna be summarized is probably not that high, right. Because people aren't going to a search engine be like, what's the latest news and stuff like that. Although they might, right? But a lot of times they're using social media and other ways to get their news and they're still clicking through to read that article or analysis or something like that. So

Leo Laporte (00:49:36):
You, you, you Winter Central, like IOR and others was purchased by a future which is a British company. And you're fortunate cuz they're not a private equity company like Red Ventures <laugh>, so Exactly, yeah. And they're not, they're not trying to turn a profit like by selling off the pieces, I presume. Yep. But you've gotta look at I, and I don't know what's happening at cnn. I mean this is kind of up in the air. We had Connie Guglielmo, the editor-in-chief on a few weeks ago when that story first broke, that they had used a chat g p t, like artificial intelligence, I think they call it wordsmith to write 75 articles for the personal finance section at the, she had just published a blog post saying, oh you know, this is the stuff no writer wants to write.

This is the evergreen stuff we have an editor review it for, and, and I, at that point, I, I said, that's fine. Lindsay Tarantine, who's in charge of content there, has also been on the show many times, both good friends and I know that they are honorable, respectable journalists. But I don't know if their owner <laugh> is. And I, and I think that there's more and more evidence that Red Ventures was trying to create kind of a Link Beatty system of articles. Basically by, it's ironic because as massaging the search engines, these articles are created to get the search engines to point to it so that you will click on it so that they will get some money. Those, if those are all we lose for chat G P T I won't be too sad.

Daniel Rubino (00:51:10):
Yeah. There's I think the part with CNET was just the they're kind of hiding it, right? <Laugh>. Yeah. So they were forthcoming about it, and then they kind of, and they were kind of right in the sense they were like, this will just blow over and don't worry about it. It has, hasn't it? I think they're right in that, like, I mean, that is what's going to happen here. But you're also right that mostly publishers will find a way to use this technology. And I'm actually okay with it when it comes to some of that, you know, best of content, which is a real nightmare to write in, maintain, and having AI basically do that and then have a human editing it, making sure it's okay and accurate, which sometimes can actually be more work. But that's something that CNET was analyzing, was to see when a human had to go, like fact check it if it was more work than just rewriting it. So I think this will definitely be part of the publishing world, but like I said, for original content, I'm not so concerned about it at this time. But if all you do is content farming and SEO stuffing, yeah. You should probably be worried.

Leo Laporte (00:52:11):
Good. I don't mind. Those people can, yeah. Can suffer

Owen JJ Stone (00:52:14):
Because everything's about to turn into the YouTube infomercial system anyway, right? Oh, I DJ dropped something. I hope you're not 42 people do the review. And dude, if you go on TikTok, guess what? I, I use a certain kind of sheets. I see the same sheets 42 times on the TikTok feed, and I wanna take the sheets off and set 'em on fire and get new sheets. How does it know what

Leo Laporte (00:52:33):
Kinda sheets you have?

Owen JJ Stone (00:52:36):
I mean, because I

Leo Laporte (00:52:37):
Guarantee you I don't see those ads on TikTok.

Owen JJ Stone (00:52:40):
You could just tell they're, they're listening. You could

Ben Parr (00:52:43):
Just tell the TikTok to like stop showing you those ads. I do it all the time.

Owen JJ Stone (00:52:47):
Yeah, yeah. But then, but then yet the U GC and the people that are making the ads on their own, it's not actually the company. So that's what I'm saying. That's what it's gonna breed more of people just doing their own. Hey, I drink loose juice. Have you tried this juice? I lost 42 pounds. You don't know how fat I was before this video. And <laugh>, that's what it's gonna turn into with the, with the creators making more content because you can't just puppy mill out stuff with AI right now. So there's gonna be more value in that and people can get a better check, I guess the YouTube infomercial

Ben Parr (00:53:15):
System. Here's what I'm gonna do, Owen. I'm going to use an AI to recreate you, and I'm gonna use an AI voice synthesizer to recreate your voice. And I'm going to have you sell some sheets to a whole bunch of people on

Owen JJ Stone (00:53:29):
Tiktok. So just on, just on the side note of that, while you're making it, I need two things. I need a ASCO doctor a Chad, G B T, that'll just answer things crazily like I do. It could give content from me. And then I need something that scans the Bible and it says, ask the Lord. And then you're out there cheating and doing something wrong. You ask the Lord what you should do, and then he tells you that you're gonna get s slighted down if you don't stop cheating on wife. Shit, that's what we need. If you want that. Look, that's a billion. Lemme put my glass back on. I feel like Ben part, I feel smart. That's a lot of money right there. Ask the

Leo Laporte (00:53:58):
Lord. Need a good voice for the Lord. That's It's gotta be like a big deep voice scene. No, that's right. Yeah,

Ben Parr (00:54:05):
Ask him. There, there is a chat. There is something called chat. K jv, AI power chat bot

Leo Laporte (00:54:10):
King James

Ben Parr (00:54:11):
Version. These, the scriptures. Yep.

Leo Laporte (00:54:13):
The King James version. Oh my God. Oh my. Oh,

Owen JJ Stone (00:54:15):
See, see, somebody's already on my million dollar idea. See? No, no. Good de goes. Un

Leo Laporte (00:54:19):
You said it and boy they got it immediately,

Owen JJ Stone (00:54:21):
Right? Yeah. Already made it.

Leo Laporte (00:54:24):
It says chat with the scriptures and, and, and see if you're right with God. Wow. Look at that. See? See, that's good.

Ben Parr (00:54:33):
That's good. There's a website out there called, there's an AI for And I know, I'm just gonna tell you, I look at that and that just tells me all the new AI stuff that's coming out, introducing a product on things, but you just up every up every day. Some new AI thing.

Leo Laporte (00:54:46):
So, alright, so we're really crazy about this stuff. We love it. 1,853 ais for 487 tasks. Is it gonna be the flavor of the month and a year or two years or three years where we're just gonna remember that when we were all into, you know, chat g p T stuff? Or do you think it's got more? Obviously you, you think it has legs? Ben Par

Ben Parr (00:55:14):
Yes, I am biased, but I do think it has legs. But

Leo Laporte (00:55:16):
Where, in what, in what realm? I mean, the idea of a, a fancy Eliza is not a winning proposition, I don't think. Maybe it is. Maybe people are

Ben Parr (00:55:26):
Alone. So, so I, I I'll, okay, I I've gotten people who compare generative AI things to Web three, and I think that's completely wrong. And I think that's a good way to think about this

Leo Laporte (00:55:38):
Being webstream being a scam.

Ben Parr (00:55:41):
Web three being something that is extraordinarily difficult to use and was most of the time, with very rare exceptions, a solution looking for a problem.

Leo Laporte (00:55:51):
Yes. Okay. I'll grant you, you can created by, you can venture capitalists who thought they might make some money on this solution waiting for looking for a

Ben Parr (00:55:58):
Problem. It's, it's a technology about money. It was gonna attract people with money. And I have love web three. It's like n ft, it's, that's all that, right? Yeah. But AI, I could immediately tell you a hundred things that it could help you with. That's

Leo Laporte (00:56:10):
Actually my question in a nutshell, is, is this another cryptocurrency?

Ben Parr (00:56:15):
It's not,

Owen JJ Stone (00:56:16):
It's not, it's

Ben Parr (00:56:16):
Not because it actually has real use cases. I it will actually help you, you know, summarize a whole bunch of things or quickly write the bones for a newsletter or write a newsletter if you know how to give it the prompts. It can write legal documents, it can do things that will speed up your life. And it is the absolute worst it will ever be in human history. It will only get better and more efficient and more effective with every day that passes. And so, I don't think, it's not a fact. It's more like the iPhone, the iOS where the first wave of apps on the iPhone were fart apps and they were horrible. And then people built Tinder and Uber, right, right. And Snapchat. That's what I think will happen. And a certain point, we won't be talking about AI as like AI conferences and like, as this new thing. It'll just be part of the background. You don't talk about, oh, it's built on top of the iPhone. It just, it is.

Leo Laporte (00:57:10):
So let's,

Owen JJ Stone (00:57:11):
As I said, go ahead. As I said earlier, it, it's here it, like I said, I, I've grumped on a lot of things. This is one thing I'm not grump on you. They're making so many things, they're just useful. You do a podcast, you do a show, guess what? Some people are gonna be able to upload a video and inhabit chunk out 32nd clips, minute clips for you, YouTube, for Twitter, for anything. And, and the things that are coming are so powerful and useful. The fact that the half the country win put out 42 pictures of themselves looking like Star Wars Dune characters should tell you the fact that art is something that's just built in human nature in your mind. And you can make art of yourself. Like I didn't even do it for myself. I did it for my dad who passed away and I just generated 40 pictures of my dad that were new and interesting to me and my daughter. We looked at 'em. I almost cried a little bit cuz I thought it was so cool. There are so many things coming down the pipe audio, guess what? If your audio sounds like trash feeding into a ai, it'll fix it for you. There are. So Uncle Leo is here to stay is here. It's a, you know it, it's here. I believe

Leo Laporte (00:58:14):
Hundred percent believe. Cuz you look smart in those glasses. So I think you're right. Now I

Owen JJ Stone (00:58:17):
Hate Little Ben part. That's what they call me. The streets.

Leo Laporte (00:58:20):
<Laugh>. How about you, Daniel? You agree?

Daniel Rubino (00:58:24):
Oh yeah, absolutely. And I agree too with what Ben was saying, that, you know, we're, a lot of us are having fun now, making fun of AI and like specifically Bing chat and mistakes it makes. And I'm like, yeah, laugh. It's going to improve so rapidly that we won't be laughing at this stuff within weeks and months because this is unlike any other technology we've had. You know, you look at smartphones, they came out, what, 2004, 2005. Then the iPhone came out and it was like a long time before that became mainstream. And that's how hardware works, right? It just takes a long, long time. This is just gonna evolve so quickly. It becomes so much more efficient and powerful that I think people will be kind of really surprised by how much this is gonna affect and transform the economy. And I think that's gonna be a really big thing over the next couple years.

Leo Laporte (00:59:10):
This site that you talked about, Ben, there's an AI for actually does it by year, starting in 2015 when there were 3 20 16, when they were two by 2017, there's more than a dozen. By 2018, there's double that by 2019 there's double that. It's growing, you know, exponentially. This is 2020, there's almost too many to count. And of course, 2023, it's it. Now you're going month by months because every every day there's a dozen new applications for this. Is there gonna be a winner? Can we say that one of the incumbents Google, Microsoft, Amazon, apple, Facebook, will they, will one of them be a winner?

Ben Parr (00:59:57):
Ooh, that's a good one. I wonder

Daniel Rubino (00:59:59):
What Apple's game is like, what's, what's, I don't

Leo Laporte (01:00:02):
Know, apple has the worst thing Apple AI out there right now, Siri. But as we learn,

Owen JJ Stone (01:00:06):
Make sir

Leo Laporte (01:00:07):
Suck. Well, but a lot of these companies are holding onto something much, much better. Maybe Apple will will bypass ai. Maybe they're, that might be a mistake. I mean, apple and, and Meta both have put all their money in ar vr, <laugh>, and then it may turn out, in fact, it's starting to look like, yeah, that was a losing horse. Yep.

Ben Parr (01:00:29):
A Apple's voice. Well, apple just released an AI product. The vo you talked about it. The yeah, the, the book,

Leo Laporte (01:00:34):
The voice, the book readers. Yeah. And

Ben Parr (01:00:35):
It's good. It's very good. It's quite good. Yeah. And so Apple's just very methodical about it. They will release something, they will look greatly improve Siri. There will be all of that. There. I think there will be some winner's solution, but not like one completely wins. And the other doesn't, it's the same thing as like, you know, there's Android and there's iPhone, there's, you know, word and there's Google Docs. It'll be the same kind of thing. E like each one's gonna have a piece of the pie. Microsoft is, we all know, has done a very good job of taking a bunch of the pie. There's gonna be a lot of like a only a few startups that are like the infrastructure layer or companies that like where all the other AI companies are built on top of. So like Open AI is one of those companies. Google, there's a couple of others that are out there, and then there's gonna just be thousands of other companies and products.

Leo Laporte (01:01:24):
Remember you're all old enough to remember when search started, there was Yahoo, which was a directory, and then came out to Vista and Excite and a bunch, I mean G Ask J's. And then along came Google and it were like, poof at, in the beginning of search there were many cho it was kind of like it is today, right? There were many good choices, but somebody came along and beat everybody else.

Owen JJ Stone (01:01:51):
Well, uncle Leo, it's gonna come down to the point of who's eating the most at the table when you speak about Google. Think about Google. And when they acquired YouTube, you know, think about Microsoft when they got into the Facebook game, then Facebook goes and gets Instagram there. The, the behemoths are going to see the cream of the crop, and they're gonna be a, there's gonna be a little arms race for, Hey, I see your team come sit at the big boy table. I see your team. Okay, you got those guys. It, it's just a roster play of like, who's picking up at the <laugh> and they're gonna just be integrated into the thing. So that's what's gonna happen. It's, it's the, the, the top, like I said, the thing that we make fun of and like movies where like, you're gonna be buying Google socks in 50 years, that's gonna be true because these top companies are going to acquire the best products that come out and then integrate them into their products. And then the other company's gonna try and compete against that. So the cream of the crop will get picked up and bought. And that the same way everything else goes.

Leo Laporte (01:02:45):
It does seem, I have to say this kind of encouraging, and Ben, you might be encouraged as well that you don't have to have the big bucks. You don't have to be a fang to do this, right? There are a lot of little scrappy startups in this space. Is that because it's cheap to do and well understood? Is it a, in other words, is AI a commodity already?

Ben Parr (01:03:07):
It's, so there's two versions of this and yes is sort of, and there's some of this in my information article coming out. One piece here is that it's just cheap and easy. If you're a developer to implement this complex ai, all you need to do is an API called Open ai. It is just so easy to do. So

Leo Laporte (01:03:25):
Use theirs. In other words, use their large language model. How hard is it to create your own large language model?

Ben Parr (01:03:31):
Stupidly hard and costing a

Leo Laporte (01:03:32):
Lot of money. Okay. Yeah. You have an expensive, there's gonna be expensive. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, that's one of the things that's missing in this equation is to do something that is as up to date as a Google or Bing search means you have to be constantly building the corpus which is very, it's expensive, right? I mean, this is not, this is

Daniel Rubino (01:03:55):

Leo Laporte (01:03:55):
That's Sam Altman said it's about 10 times the cost. A chat g bt query is about 10 times the cost of a Google search. And, and I think that's probably what it would be. You would be in order of magnitude more expense to do a search engine powered by ai.

Daniel Rubino (01:04:11):
I mean, Microsoft teamed up with open AI and what, 2020, what their supercomputer. And that was what they were doing the training on and led to what Microsoft calls Prometheus, which is their version of a what of a language model that's built off of chat G P T that has guardrails in it and different is

Leo Laporte (01:04:32):
That what they're using for Bing research? It's Prometheus. Yeah,

Daniel Rubino (01:04:35):
It's called Prometheus. Okay. Yeah. And so it, that's their language model and it's, so it's not exactly chat, c p t, it's, it's built off of that. But you need to, you know, Microsoft was only one at the time of like five supercomputers in the world. <Laugh>, there's not a lot of them. And this could probably get into quantum computing eventually when you need even more power. But yeah, you really do need a lot, a lot of data to train these things. And that's where the internet comes in. And now real live people are using it. So Microsoft, I know their researchers right now are very excited about getting all this data. People are using it real time and they're fixing things and adjusting it because that's what's gonna make it better.

Leo Laporte (01:05:11):
Ben, what do you think?

Ben Parr (01:05:15):
<Laugh>? there will be a couple of companies that power the core of what most AI applications will be using. A lot of the opportunity is gonna be in companies built on top of things like Open AI or LAMB does, which is Google's and utilizing it to, in like adding their own dataset or adding some of their own machine learning, like for specific industries for like e-commerce or legal or things like that. And there's gonna be other use cases that'll come out. I do think over time this like every other technology will get cheaper and easier. It is gonna be a commodity and that is a good thing for AI development. And hopefully there are at least a couple of winners so that developers have a choice of what to use.

Leo Laporte (01:06:00):
Let me play, you mentioned Apple. And as far as I know, this is the only thing Apple has released publicly is their apple Books reader. Although, gosh, they might have a car self-driving vehicle, AI going, maybe Siri is secretly smart under the hood, and, and suddenly they'll flip a switch. But these voices are, as you said, these are voices are pretty good. This is a a fiction. Let me make sure my sound is turned on. My a fiction romance voice called Madison Movement

Speaker 6 (01:06:30):
In the greenhouse drew his eye and a woman emerged. At first he wasn't sure.

Leo Laporte (01:06:35):
You could see how the people whose voices there stealing from Spotify might say, that's my, that's very close to my voice. Use a, use Jackson, a fiction baritone. I looked up to find a wall of trees had materialized ahead of us. That sounds like a little bit like an ai Helena, non-fiction.

Speaker 7 (01:06:54):
On nights with a New Moon, we would walk to the end of the beach to find our favorite constellation. The pleis.

Leo Laporte (01:07:01):
See, I could listen to her. I could listen to that. I think

Ben Parr (01:07:05):
The, the nice thing is everyone's gonna have like their own preference for which AI they wanna listen to. And look, I actually did a TikTok with those voices and people like, love them and talked about them. I didn't even mention before to you, Leo, I went viral on TikTok for a video about AI and education, and now I'm a talker for some reason it got a million.

Leo Laporte (01:07:22):
Congratulations. What, how many million and a half interviews? Nice. Yeah. What what's your TikTok handle? My friend

Ben Parr (01:07:31):
<Laugh>, just like everything else on the internet at Ben Par. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:07:33):
To ours. Okay. Should we watch it? Let's talk about, should we watch it? Do we just, all we need to do is watch your TikTok and we'll know everything we need to know which one of these chat GT's cheating scandal.

Ben Parr (01:07:44):
What? That's the most recent. The, the big one is a little bit down. It's the AI and education. That's the one with a million and a half years.

Leo Laporte (01:07:50):
Wow. Is this gonna be the beginning of your information articles? See my TikTok <laugh>,

Ben Parr (01:07:57):
I've been busy the last two months.

Leo Laporte (01:07:59):
Here it is. AI is going TikTok, TikTok, same. Same. A is AI is going to radically change everything and we aren't ready for it. Education is part one. Let's see. Oh, I keep turning

Ben Parr (01:08:11):
One education. You've probably seen

Speaker 8 (01:08:14):
This, the internet recently. It's

Leo Laporte (01:08:16):
Chat gti. So I encourage you to continue with the TikTok. You know, my son has 2 million followers on the TikTok. That's right. He's famous. I can get some advice from him. He's, he's become a, yes, he's become a TikTok, but it's, but it's all real. And you know what? Cooking cannot be done by an AI until they give it hands and then watch out. So even, even then, so while we're, while we're having, so while we're having this love fest about ai, have you ever tested, already told AI recipes? They're awful. Okay, go ahead, <laugh>. So let's let, so the, that DJ that used m and m and is set and he used artificial intelligence to write it and to do the voice, and he went out there into the club and he pumped it out and everybody got hyped on it. Like I already had to live through Donald J. Trump and the Russian Conspiracies of life and fake news and this and that. And now I got people out here doing DJ sets completely. Let me play a little bit of it for you. This is Dave Cota a million views on of, of this Twitter video of him. So you're saying this is a virtual an AI Eminem. Yes. This is the Future RA sound. I'm getting Austin. And so he's talking, this is the future Ra sound, but he's applied underground Eminem's voice to his voice.

Okay. I I get up and, and dance

Speaker 9 (01:09:43):
Eminem bro. This something that I made as a joke and it works so good. I could not believe it. I discovered those websites that are about ai, basically you can write lyrics in the style of any artist you like. So I typed write a verse in the style of Eminem about Future Rave. And I went to another AI website. I

Leo Laporte (01:10:08):
Want Ed, I want Eminem to do. Dave Goda going, <laugh>, you got to lose yourself to the music you gotta throw up at your mama's a spaghetti on your sweater. That would be so turnabout is fair play. That was pretty good. That sounded like Eminem. Yeah. And that's a problem, right? Like if I were Eminem, I'd pissed we live. Yeah. Well not forget Eminem. I don't care about a rapper making a a a bump and track in the though. That's where it'll happen, right? Cause that's where sampling started again, forget sampling. Oh, okay. Let's put it this way. You, you're Eminem and he's got 400 million followers of dudes that will bleach their hair at any moment cuz he said so. And you make this AI voice and he says, give me a dollar at Eminem needs a And he just rocks off a, like, there's so many. I mean Dan, don't, I am a sociopath. Do not come from me. I do think of bad evil things, <laugh> how the world works. But don't, don't do so cops after me. I'm just saying there's a lot of evil

Owen JJ Stone (01:11:13):
Out here that are coming down the pipeline too to

Leo Laporte (01:11:18):
The music <laugh>.

Ben Parr (01:11:20):
He's absolutely right. I'm

Owen JJ Stone (01:11:21):
Making fun of my fear of <laugh>. But

Ben Parr (01:11:24):
So I covered, I covered a story in my TikTok about there was a bunch of four Cs and they replicated the voices of a couple that was major creepy celebrities. Yes. Right? They've, they did Emma Watson reading mine,

Leo Laporte (01:11:38):
Tom Mike Kpf.

Ben Parr (01:11:39):
Like imagine someone making a voice and then calling your old grandmother and just like scamming out of money. But it

Leo Laporte (01:11:44):
To be your, at this point, wouldn't it have to be your old grandmother? Because anybody of who's paying attention, what good knows that could be made up. No, it's, it's like it's

Ben Parr (01:11:55):
Getting better. You

Owen JJ Stone (01:11:55):
Don't trust it. Maybe that's not the reason. What, okay, so that's not the problem. The problem is there's so many things. We had a balloon in the air and 50% of the country thinks that came from China. 42% of people think that some guy got dumped at a, a proposal at a wedding and just let the balloon flow like you, that's something that was on the news every hour. So no, people can't differentiate what's real. Do you wanna know about that balloon? Especially when you've got ai?

Leo Laporte (01:12:22):
Do you wanna know about the one that they shut down over over Alaska? Do you wanna know about that one? Just

Owen JJ Stone (01:12:27):
Tell me about it.

Leo Laporte (01:12:28):
It came from a hobby club. <Laugh>, of course it came from a, well, we, nobody's sure because okay. Conspiracy theory here, they can't find the remains and they've given up looking for it. Right? this, there was, okay, you tell me. Okay. There's a a northern Illinois hobbyist club called the Bottle cap Balloon brigade that launches their Mylar party balloons with G P s and other electronics on them. They launched a balloon 123 days ago with a call sign, by the way just in case you might have seen it, K nine y o dash 15. It is circled the earth six times. The last time it was seen was February 11th, it was heading towards Alaska. The next day they lost track of it, which coincidentally was the same day two F 22 raptors were dispatched <laugh> to shoot the mysterious object down with a $400,000 side winder missile. They got it, by the way. And ever since the balloon's been unheard of ever since.

Owen JJ Stone (01:13:47):
Yeah, I think a side winder might <laugh> <laugh>. I gotta, I gotta say they

Leo Laporte (01:13:52):
Talked to the balloon guys and they said, you know, the way this works is at, at, at at ground level, the air pressure is low, is low enough or high enough I guess that the balloon is, you know, just a balloon. As it gets higher and higher, it gets tauter and tauter. Cause the air pressure goes down. They said by the time it's at 60,000 feet, which is where these things fly, it's, it's very fragile. They said you could have just, you know, whizzed by it in the F 22 and it would've popped. You didn't have to use the $400,000 air, air to air missile on this thing. So,

Owen JJ Stone (01:14:23):

Ben Parr (01:14:23):
How often do you not get to use a sideway missile?

Leo Laporte (01:14:26):
Well, like this, they've never used it. They've had this, this aircraft costs 133 million each, $70,000 an hour in the air. And by the way, after you fly it, there's 40 hours of maintenance that you have to do before you could fly it. Again, these are very finicky little things, but they've never got to use it. Right? In a decade, they've had this, these fan, these raptors around. Finally we got something

Owen JJ Stone (01:14:52):
That that's part, that's part of the American budget. We spend, spend $4 billion on planes we never use. And also I, this is an argument I had with a very somewhat rational person. I can't say that they're smart. After this conversation. They're like, China's trying to spot on us with these balloons and we had to take it out. And I said, okay, you got this phone in your hand, you see on the back. It wasn't made here in America. Half the things you own weren't made here in China. Wanna push a button? They don't

Leo Laporte (01:15:14):
Need a balloon. They got your phone.

Owen JJ Stone (01:15:16):
They could. And then, and then on top of that, then you got TikTok on your phone. You're giving 'em all the information. They listen to you, they're recording you. And if that wasn't good enough, did you not know this Satellites could basically read your text messages. China top your shoulder

Leo Laporte (01:15:28):
Satellites jet

Owen JJ Stone (01:15:30):
Gonna get there. Like what? Like people, what are you talking about? They need a balloon to spy on me. So they, they you're spying on yourself. <Laugh>, shut up.

Leo Laporte (01:15:38):
<Laugh>. the, this balloon by the way had a payload that weighs 16 grams, about half an ounce GPS module of megatons. Yeah. A tiny computer and a small solar package. They are f a legal, they're so light, they're not subject to any requirements. The tra transmitters fcc registered, but the balloon itself can't hurt a jet E even if it's in, in the path. So the bottle cap balloon brigade, I'm sorry, <laugh>, when we shot your balloon, a great expense to the taxpayers, we have eliminated yet another threat to the Great American cotton.

Owen JJ Stone (01:16:18):
And, and China was like, oh, is that how you handle balloons? Well, just snow if you fly kite over here, don't you? We're taking it down. Don't,

Leo Laporte (01:16:24):
Don't you think the Chinese are just laughing? They're laughing at this. They go, well, wasn't ours. I mean, by the way, the hamper covered all the detritus from that first balloon over that they shot down over North Carolina. They've, they've got it all. And I'm sending it to the fbi and they seem to be confident that that was indeed a Chinese balloon. Could have been a weather balloon. I mean, there's 1600 weather balloons launched every day in this sky in this war. Just,

Ben Parr (01:16:49):
Just watch those

Owen JJ Stone (01:16:50):

Ben Parr (01:16:51):
Launched and then side wonder biles are all gone. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:16:55):
Huh? You used up all your

Owen JJ Stone (01:16:56):
Side winds

Leo Laporte (01:16:57):
Have a, it's good for the side. Winders. I have a serious question, Ben. The industry. Go ahead. Yeah, doctor,

Owen JJ Stone (01:17:03):
I have a serious question. So should, could there be like a Master AI page where I could just put something in there, kinda like with the Photoshop, I can put a picture in there and it tells me if it's photoshopped or not. Can I, can I get somebody to build that for AI where I could just Yeah. Plug it into the thing and it'll tell me like, this has been generated by such, like, I need something right now because the fear I, again, I know it's real and I love it. I want it. I'm using it. I'm, I'm making some good things, but I'm just still a little scared, you know, of the, the things people can do. Let

Leo Laporte (01:17:32):
Me take a quick break here. We got, we got so much to talk about. This is a fun, AI is a great subject for a show, I have to say. I mean, it really generates a lot of conversation. Do you think we should start a this week in AI show? [inaudible]

Owen JJ Stone (01:17:47):
You probably got a need one. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:17:49):
We might need one. It feels like good or bad, we've, I mean we're covering it all the time now and I think that that's gonna be the way it is for some time to come, I feel like. Right? All right, well I'll talk to the boss. It's not got a great acronym. We might need a new name for it. T w i a I is not

Owen JJ Stone (01:18:08):

Leo Laporte (01:18:10):

Owen JJ Stone (01:18:11):
<Laugh> tw tw <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:18:16):
Our show today brought to you by eight sleep. Let me tell you folks, I first learned about eight sleep on this show more than a year ago. Kevin Rose was on and he told me about this thing. This mattress cover puts on that heats and cools. And he said, oh Leo, it's the best night's sleep ever. And I said, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. But Amy Webb was on that show. She got it. Three months later she says, Leo, I got the heat sleep cuz Kevin Rose recommended it's the greatest thing ever. I said, yeah, yeah. Finally, about a year ago Lisa and I said, all right, we should try this thing. So we went out and we got the eight sleep. Can I say it's the greatest thing ever to happen to your sleep? It's a, it's the ultimate sleep machine. Sleep is the one you know at, at the beginning of every year.

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Daniel Rubino (01:22:07):
Let's, he kinda sold me on that

Leo Laporte (01:22:10):
Before. It's Anne's gotta answer my question. He's gotta make me feel better. Okay, what's your question? Oh,

Daniel Rubino (01:22:14):
Actually I'll wait. I'll answer Owen in a second. But while you were doing that, I did ask chat g p t for some podcast names for ai. Now this, this doesn't quite fit into the, the twit, you know,

Leo Laporte (01:22:26):
I don't care if an AI came up with it. It's gotta be good

Daniel Rubino (01:22:29):
<Laugh>. So I asked it to make a witty and funny and so we got, the first one was artificially intelligent and definitely not evil <laugh>, which is is pretty Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:22:41):
That's pretty good.

Daniel Rubino (01:22:42):

Leo Laporte (01:22:42):
I can't believe that it's, that's

Daniel Rubino (01:22:44):
Made for Google. That is made for Google. The singularity is near. But first let's laugh. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:22:51):
<Laugh>. Nice.

Daniel Rubino (01:22:54):
Then they have the touring testosterone show. Oh wow. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:22:58):

Daniel Rubino (01:22:59):
Wow. Robo roasts. Robo roast with machines. Okay. Yep. They're comically intelligent podcast. The algorithmic antics hour artificially stupid artificial stupidity. The Laughing Neural America laughing Neural network. AI amusingly, inconsistent <laugh>. Silly singularity. Yeah. And that's kinda about it. I'm impressed

Leo Laporte (01:23:22):
That it was able to laugh at itself. That was chat G P T or that was Bing.

Daniel Rubino (01:23:26):
Yeah, that was chat g ptt

Leo Laporte (01:23:27):
Chat G P T. Yeah, I'm impressed. I'm Impre Isn't Bing chat GBT four or am I wrong on that? Isn't that the next generation? Yes. Well

Daniel Rubino (01:23:34):
They don't call it that. It's Prometheus. That's the it's, yeah, that's sort of the it's built on, they say NextGen chat, G P T Technology. Okay. So Bud's probably 4.0. The answer Owen's question quickly. Yeah, I, I agree a hundred percent and I think that's the next thing. And I know some companies are working on it and you know, I know Google has that with the, they call it with the, with the, well I forgot the name of it. It's like a pre bump where they're sort of like trying to get people to better understand news. But there will be technologies and, and I guarantee you probably Microsoft will probably lead a lot of this where it detects you know, AI generated content and there is that technology out there. There is AI right now that can look at generated content and tell you it's ai.

And so what's gonna happen is you're gonna start to see that implemented, I think by a lot of companies. And when it comes to video in, you know, deep fakes, you go to Anita as well as well as audio. So you can also do things like you can, you can watermark AI generated content so that if it is used, it's flagged by other software systems that maybe say, you know, like for schools for instance, that would then block that content from being generated. There will probably always be a back and forth between this of course, just like everything else in the world. But I think you're going to see that's the other side. You're gonna see a lot of companies invest in and market technology that's used to detect AI and flag it for others. Cuz it is gonna be super important.

Leo Laporte (01:25:02):
Do you think it's detectable or I bet you you could Governor undetectable ai. How would you detect it?

Daniel Rubino (01:25:08):
Well, so some companies like, you know, like I was saying, like ethically in this where Microsoft may take a lead in, could watermark their

Leo Laporte (01:25:15):
Own, you should identify it. So you, you should,

Daniel Rubino (01:25:17):
Yeah. So

Leo Laporte (01:25:18):
We, Adam, there ought to be a law that would be a good law. Like for instance, yeah, you should have a thing on your screen that says Dan's eyes are artificially Yes. Focused on you <laugh> when you chatri our, our pro producer Jason Hellen Che saying, do you notice that when he was reading those titles, he never stopped looking straight at us. And I <laugh> and then now I'm like, it's uncanny. I'm getting a little creeped out by the whole thing. Rewind folks. Nice. Watch, watch The amazing, Hey, that's Invidia by the way. Nvidia is definitely one of the winners in all this, right? They make it out.

Ben Parr (01:25:52):
Oh God. Yeah. They're, they've, they've been winning and anyone like p powering the GPUs for it, there's starting to be some competition for Nvidia, but Nvidia is definitely a big winner and is being used by a lot. To also answer the previous question art and video are much easier to check for than text. Yes. For I think some obvious reasons. Yes. So the watermark is already starting to be done in things like I think stable diffusion is doing it, it's invisible to the human eye, but it's billions of pixels. You can put the watermark secretly it's gonna happen. It'll help detect it. There are probably some other ways to detect some patterns that most ais will use for making art. Text is harder because you can just ask it to rewrite and you can't have a specific watermark in like the text itself. And that can just be rewritten by putting it through a different ai. You could get the most basic easy stuff, like if someone just very lazily ass chat p t to write a five paragraph essay. But if you just, I have a friend my friend Jason, he just rewrites the things in the tone of a snarky millennial and then the G p T detectors can't tell.

Leo Laporte (01:26:55):
Ah, so just say, write it in the tone of a snarky millennial and you're done.

Ben Parr (01:27:01):
And you're

Leo Laporte (01:27:01):
Done and you're done. I will

Daniel Rubino (01:27:02):
Say though, and I haven't completely fully read it yet, but the New York Times does have an article saying how chat G P T could embed a watermark in the text that

Leo Laporte (01:27:09):
Generates I think that's the way to do it. That's the way to do it. Yeah. And I think you could legally mandate that. Look, Chicago has a law saying it can't use biometric identification. In fact, that law's gonna cost could cost White Castle $17 billion. <Laugh>. I don't think there's enough sliders in the world to pay a 17 billion fine. Chicago has had since 2008 a law against companies using biometric data without notifying you. Turns out White Castle was fingerprinting employees in order to collect their check to to, to l log in. Like instead of punching a time card to use their fingerprint. Without asking permission, the Illinois Supreme Court on Friday said that in a four to three decision, white Castle was liable for every instance in which it scanned the fingerprints of its 9,500 employees without their consent. And that was kind of one of the bones of contention. White Castle said, well, we'll pay a fine, but not for every instance. Well, they've been doing, they've been doing this for more than a decade. There's so many instances of it that it could add up to $17 billion. <Laugh>. it's

Owen JJ Stone (01:28:27):
White castle's gonna just end up, white casts gonna end up suing Jumanji cuz it's Ji's fault. Cuz he was always signing Earl in on the time sheet.

Leo Laporte (01:28:35):
Earl, you see, you see Nope, nope, you can't had to do something. Nope. No tailgating

Owen JJ Stone (01:28:40):
Counter sue Jumanji get the money

Leo Laporte (01:28:41):
Back. Mm-Hmm. No tail, no tailgating's happened. So anyway, we'll see how Judge obviously could, could moderate that. Although I have to say congratulations to the register, which did some math and said, in order to raise 17 billion white hassle, white Castle would have to sell 23 billion sliders. <Laugh> <laugh>. There

Ben Parr (01:28:59):
You go. I I will eat six of them.

Leo Laporte (01:29:01):
I would be very sad if White Castle went away. I like the, I like the slider. You may say, well, this, that's the last time you had White Castle. Oh, it's been years. But let me tell you something. I just drove by one yesterday. Like, I'm jealous. I stop every time. It's so greasy. It's so, I'm Jersey. So we got that. Harold Kumar. I know, I'm so jealous here. We know where it's, we don't have it out

Daniel Rubino (01:29:21):
Here. Can I, can I take a moment to humble brag. I didn't go to White Castle, but I went to a famous kind of burger place in Boston that was on Man versus Food about 10 years ago. And I ate a two pound hamburger. Oh God. <Laugh> all.

Leo Laporte (01:29:35):
Wow. Nothing to brag about. That's impressive.

Daniel Rubino (01:29:39):
And that wasn't, that wasn't their, that's the small, the small one. They have the contest is if you can eat a six pound burger and five pounds of fries, it has 24 pieces of cheese. Why do

Leo Laporte (01:29:52):
People buy

Daniel Rubino (01:29:52):

Leo Laporte (01:29:52):
That to themselves?

Daniel Rubino (01:29:54):
<Laugh>, I don't Free by two pound Burger was delicious. Was

Leo Laporte (01:29:58):
That big Jud? Yeah. Was that big Judd that you

Daniel Rubino (01:30:01):
No, it's called Eagles. It was called Eagles Deli.

Leo Laporte (01:30:03):
Eagles Deli Two. Did I eat the whole burger? Did you take half of it home?

Daniel Rubino (01:30:07):
No, I ate it

Leo Laporte (01:30:08):
All right. There. You have to eat it right there. You can't No, no. Taking it home. How many ch how many pieces of cheese were on that burger?

Daniel Rubino (01:30:15):
Eight pieces. <Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:30:17):
Woo. Slimmer. I feel slimmer already. Boy, are you making me, I'm getting a fit after you feel summer sexy right now. I I'm getting really

Daniel Rubino (01:30:24):
Hungry. Day. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:30:27):
<Laugh>. Wow. Eagles Deli. I'm gonna have to go next. I'm in Brighton and and maybe my, I get my mom to order one of those.

Daniel Rubino (01:30:36):
There you go. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:30:37):
Yeah. She's only 90. I think that would last her a month. Oh,

Daniel Rubino (01:30:41):
Geez. Yeah. <laugh>, going back to the AI thing, I'm wondering if you can get the, get this under copyright law if you just make a generic entity that's called AI and that anything that's used by it is technically copyright copyrighted. And so there'll be no money given to it. But you, you, it would be a violation of copyright if you were to, if you used it to publish that, if you were republish that if you got caught, if you used it inappropriately. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:31:05):
Yeah. Interesting. But I'm still stuck on the giant. Here is somebody eating in <laugh>. The 11. There you go. 11 pound burger and the five pounds of fries, <laugh>.

Daniel Rubino (01:31:18):
It's insane. I didn't do the fries. I couldn't do the

Leo Laporte (01:31:21):
Friess. Disgusting. Now we have to ask the question. What, what's the biggest thing you ever ate? Uncle Leo? Yeah.

Daniel Rubino (01:31:26):

Leo Laporte (01:31:29):
<Laugh>. God, that's a good question. Like a whole pizza. The biggest thing I ever pizza by yourself. A, a pizza, a clam and garlic pizza from Peppes is about a yard in diameter. And I ate most of you ate the whole thing yourself. I didn't eat the whole thing myself. Okay. Most of it. All right. Most of Ben, what about you Ben? I regretted that the next morning. I might add the

Ben Parr (01:31:49):
Biggest thing. I don't, it's probably some breakfast related things. Some like, I think there was some ridiculous, like, like 12 egg omelet I once did. Wow. You know what, this should be like a badge on your Twitter that just like a giant hamburger.

Leo Laporte (01:32:02):
This thing I ever <laugh>

Ben Parr (01:32:04):
The verification. Check mark. You finished the like a, one of the giant food challenges.

Leo Laporte (01:32:09):
I guess we gotta do the Twitter story. We, we haven't been talking about that, but we Oh yeah, we probably should. Twitter has decided among all of its weirdnesses to turn off s m s two factor unless you pay for it <laugh>.

Ben Parr (01:32:25):
And not just that either. It's also that meta announced today which is Sunday for those listening that you can buy Instagram verification for 12 bucks. $12 support. $12 a month. I'm sorry, a month.

Daniel Rubino (01:32:42):
That's insane.

Ben Parr (01:32:45):
<Laugh>. That's crazy.

Daniel Rubino (01:32:46):
That's a

Leo Laporte (01:32:47):
Didn't pay it. But that's for businesses. That's right. Meta Verify. No, that's for

Ben Parr (01:32:50):
Business. No, no, no, no, no. Businesses allowed only individuals. It it's literally says businesses cannot get the verification. This only for individuals. You give them your, you show 'em your government id and then you can get a blue check mark too on Instagram. What?

Leo Laporte (01:33:05):
Who told Mark Zuckerberg that? Yeah, you should do whatever Elon does. That's smart.

Ben Parr (01:33:09):

Daniel Rubino (01:33:10):
And, and raise the price

Leo Laporte (01:33:12):
<Laugh> and Oh yeah. Elon's not charging enough. Charge a few bucks more. Isn't that

Daniel Rubino (01:33:18):
SMS thing? I almost understand. Just because part it must

Leo Laporte (01:33:21):
Cost them money, right?

Daniel Rubino (01:33:22):
Right. It cost them money to send out the text and you know, that's one way to save. And I'd also argue an SMS two FA is one of the terrible insecure It's terrible options. Yeah. Everybody should be using an authenticator app and apparently like something like 75 or 80% of people with two f a on Twitter, which is only like 2% of all users are using the s m s version. So it does affect a lot of them. But they should be using Authenticator app anyway. It's a, it's a more reliable and a,

Leo Laporte (01:33:52):
So you have, you have to pay to be less secure is what you're saying. You It's not less secure though. That's this the, okay. I know that Eli no is no, you're paying don't, like you're paying, wait a minute, Owen, you are paying in order to use the less secure form of two-factor sms, you're giving him money so that you can do that. Yeah.

Paying to be less. Do something. I, it's less to use Oy Secure. It's less to use. But I think he understand. I think Elon knows, just like you said, Daniel, 80% of these users don't know anything about Oy and they're just gonna give 'em a buck. Well, it's eight bucks, but give 'em eight bucks to get the sms. Well, they have, that's why they have us in the internet. There's a lot of people under town. I, again, I I just don't understand up or about this. I'm like, we just getting mad. Yeah. Elon breathe and we're just getting mad. I'm like, this is not that big of a deal that every everybody No, it's not a huge deal. Deal. It's just bizarre. It's just so, it's bizarre. It, it, it kind of makes sense. S SMS is outdated and old and get your number gets spoof.

Owen JJ Stone (01:34:56):
People take steal you. It's not a

Leo Laporte (01:34:58):
Good Now somebody in the char said, this is interesting. I don't know if this is true. A mobile companies are Botting sms so that Twitter will have to pay more to Twilio is that's, I guess Twilio's, that sounds, that's crazy. Really

Ben Parr (01:35:12):
Twilio's the system that they and everyone else uses to, to do

Leo Laporte (01:35:14):
Office. Everybody Twilio

Ben Parr (01:35:16):
And you gotta pay, you know, some fraction of us. And

Leo Laporte (01:35:19):
The irony,

Ben Parr (01:35:20):
Text message sent

Leo Laporte (01:35:20):
Twilio offers Authy, it makes Authy for free. <Laugh>

Owen JJ Stone (01:35:24):
<Laugh>. So Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:35:27):
I don't get it. Yeah. In the world we

Owen JJ Stone (01:35:28):
Live in and to the, and to the Zuckerberg thing, like, again, I, he why bro? Like, why at least like, so I I'm on Twitter blue, I've been on Twitter blue forever and the really good

Leo Laporte (01:35:39):
Paying for that. Keep paying for that.

Owen JJ Stone (01:35:42):
Yes. Again, uncle Leo, let me tell you something. I don't wanna give hear you all the

Leo Laporte (01:35:46):
Time. Anyone.

Owen JJ Stone (01:35:47):
I listen. I hear you all the time and I listen all the time and most of the conversation sounds like people saying, if Donald Trump becomes president, I'm leaving America. Yeah. 3% of rich people went down to Puerto Rico and took over that island and left. But everybody else stayed in America, went to their jobs and did what they gotta do. Twitter is useful to me, it's my main audience. People click my links and I guess I'm staying there. And yes, I give 11 bucks because I can put 10 minute videos on there and rent like I'm doing right now. Oh, America is terrible. But it's still good. That's why they got my money. The the blue check doesn't matter to me. No, that doesn't matter. But yes, I'm clear. Nobody's left Twitter. Everybody's still there. I know.

Leo Laporte (01:36:23):
We hate America. All three of you are still using it, I don't believe mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. America's terrible, but it's still better. Is that what is that your Nobody's

Owen JJ Stone (01:36:30):
Left. Twitter.

Ben Parr (01:36:31):
Twitter, Twitter usage is down. If you look statistically though a

Leo Laporte (01:36:35):
ADRA is down,

Ben Parr (01:36:37):
ADRA is down. But user twi, it's not going away. And I love Twitter as a product. I really need,

Leo Laporte (01:36:44):
Let me ask you guys wish, because all three of you're on Twitter. I I am not. I mean, I have an account, so nobody else steal my name, but I'm not using it. Did you see a lot of Elon earlier in the week?

Daniel Rubino (01:36:55):
Oh, I didn't, but I have my own Twitter. There's a plugin called Control panel for Twitter. Oh. That you could run on the web. And so what I, I run that on the web and then I use a, I create a PWA out of Twitter. And so that's my app on my pc. So what I look at 90% of the time, except when I'm not my phone, and I guess this is also on iOS. So you could actually just, there's an app you could download from 5 99 that's built off of this and what it, but

Leo Laporte (01:37:23):
Wouldn't you see the same thing you see on the web?

Daniel Rubino (01:37:25):
No. So what it does is it, it's basically hacks Twitter and it, it gives you just your chronological timeline of people you follow. And that's it. In fact, I can hide retweets. So I've retweets in a whole separate columns. So I don't even get to see those. I just, the original content of people posted and for people who have Twitter blue who are paying for it, it changes their icon to the little, like the little symbol. And it's not a check mark, it's a little bird. So I even know <laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:37:50):
Oh, the check mark, isn't it anymore? It's just a, it's a bird, huh?

Daniel Rubino (01:37:54):
Yeah. So like you can but for verify people who remains as a check mark, there's tons of little hacks in it. You can hide everything. So it's, you could just download that. And that's for people on the web, obviously. But I use, that's how I use Twitter is I use it as a pwa.

Leo Laporte (01:38:09):
And so the story was, so you don't have a four uab, that's why you didn't see a bunch of Elon. Right. If you blocked Elon, I don't think you would see it. But the four u tab on, so the story was we've, we've talked about before. I'll do it quickly. Elon tweeted at the Super Bowl on Sunday. But his tweet didn't get as much engagement as President Biden's tweet. So Elon flew home in a, in a rage from the Super Bowl, calls his cousin James and says, James gotta fix this. James sends out a 2:30 AM Slack to anybody still up. There's a problem. Biden got more engagement than Elon fix it. <Laugh>. So they did, they made sure that all of Elon's tweets showed up in the for you tab. And

Owen JJ Stone (01:38:54):

Leo Laporte (01:38:54):
Of the day Monday, all you saw was Elon Musk tweets. They fixed that though, right? I'm just curious if you guys saw it

Owen JJ Stone (01:39:02):
Supposed more of the re tweets. I'm sorry. I I I saw more of the retweets of him fake pouring milk down with the Elon Twitter. Oh, that

Leo Laporte (01:39:12):
Was the worst.

Owen JJ Stone (01:39:13):
Then. Like, is this it? I I see Elon, like I see Kanye, he says something stupid and everybody makes fun of him. And I have to see it in 42 posts. Otherwise I forget the man exists. Oh, you only

Leo Laporte (01:39:23):
See retweet. You don't see his originals.

Owen JJ Stone (01:39:26):
Yeah. You know, like, or Ben,

Leo Laporte (01:39:28):
Did you see Alana Elon on Monday?

Ben Parr (01:39:31):
I think I was not on Twitter on Monday. Thankfully. I was doing real life work fly. I think I was like touching grass, touching grass, going to see my girlfriend's play. You know, things like, things like that. God, he also fired somebody over it too. Well,

Leo Laporte (01:39:48):
This was earlier that week. He does, yeah. Earlier that week he had a, this is according to the platformer, Casey Newton and Zoe Schiff Schiffer earlier that week, he'd had a meeting with engineers saying, why, why is my engagement so low? To which a foolish engineer pulled out the Google search trends from a year ago and currently and said, well, you're down 10% in search trends as well. To which Elon's response was, you're fired. You're outta here. Yep, you're gone. He was one of the two people, <laugh>, there were only two directors, I guess, in charge of the product, and he was one of the two. So they, they've got cut the staff in half, which saves money. I don't know. I'm all right. You know, you guys love Twitter. I'm not, that's fine. I don't have a problem with it. I don't love

Daniel Rubino (01:40:33):

Owen JJ Stone (01:40:33):
But again, it's like, I'm, it's like America. I don't love it. I live here and I use it for my advantages.

Leo Laporte (01:40:40):
I'm not gonna,

Owen JJ Stone (01:40:41):
I'm not counting my chest USA lately, but I'm saying I live here. Oh, that's interesting. You know, it's what, where

Leo Laporte (01:40:46):
I'm at. So it's not,

Daniel Rubino (01:40:47):
I have to say all my co all my content on Twitter gets automatically posted to my Mastodon. So I'm on Mastodon too, and I reply to people on Mastodon and I

Leo Laporte (01:40:56):
Use that too. What's your, so your Mastodon is at Daniel Rubino?

Daniel Rubino (01:41:01):
It's well it's Mastodon.

Ben Parr (01:41:02):
It's like a mastodon complicated thing. This is why I don't use Mastodon <laugh> bingo. Oh, bingo. I can't, I can't, there. There's no alternative. And, you know, we'll talk, I'm sure about no. And you know, the ways founders do post news, which I am on. But I am using three things a lot more now. And I am using Twitter a lot less. I am using LinkedIn, but also they just gave me one of their like their creator program, which is a fun program TikTok, because apparent that, that sweet, sweet viral juice and sub because I would like to own my own distribution and that has been awesome.

Leo Laporte (01:41:34):
We'll talk about that in a sec, cuz you do have a new CK newsletter, so I know it's really hard to use MAs on. So I just went to Mastodon. I typed in at Daniel underscore Rubino. I got two accounts. One is which one should I follow? Yep. I'm already following one of them, which the new news Okay. So that was so hard. I I don't blame you. Why would you wanna do that? That seems like a very difficult thing to do. I

Daniel Rubino (01:41:58):
Do like Macedon though. Yeah. Like I the conversation on there and it's not that hard. I get

Leo Laporte (01:42:03):
A lot work. I'm just saying. Yeah. I mean, I admit I have a dog in this hunt. We run a ma on instance, I admit, but, okay. Yeah. You type in at Daniel underscore Rubino and you find him and then you follow 'em. And that was not that hard. Alright. Alright. Let's let's talk about this article. I mentioned Noam Bardeen, who a year or two ago wrote a goodbye to Google. He was the founder of Ways said this place, nobody wants to work here, the newest one. Pravin, cdi, Shri, sorry. Got the name wrong. Shri, who joined Google because he had co-founded a company app sheet, which Google acquired. He also stayed three years and one day <laugh> and has left Google publishing a goodbye on Medium. The maze is in the mouse. What Ailes Google and how can it turn things around?

His I'll, I'll summarize cause this is a long article, but essentially he says it's become a bureaucratic nightmare. Google has 175,000 plus capable and well compensated employees who get very little done quarter over quarter, year over year, like mice. They're trapped in a maze of approvals, launch processes, legal reviews, performance reviews, exec reviews, documents, meetings, bug reports, triage, OKRs, H one plans followed by H two plans, all hand summits and inevitable reorgs. The mice are regularly fed their cheese promotions, bonuses, fan food, fancier perks. And despite many wanting to experience personal satisfaction and impact from their work, the system trains them to quell these inappropriate desires and learn what it actually means to be googly, which is just don't rock the boat. His position, and I think it's probably accurate, is that Google makes so much money from search. They don't want to take any risks anywhere else. And risk aversion, Ben, you're a startup guy. Is it a good thing for a startup to be risk-adverse?

Ben Parr (01:44:02):
That's how you die <laugh>. If you are risk averse,

Leo Laporte (01:44:06):
You can't do a startup. If you're risk-averse, you stay at Google,

Owen JJ Stone (01:44:11):
You don't die if you can buy,

Leo Laporte (01:44:13):
Yeah. What <laugh>

Daniel Rubino (01:44:16):
It's actually, that is a good point though because Amy Hood during, again, the investor call when talking about being and their four-way into search search,

Leo Laporte (01:44:24):
She's, she's the CFO O of Microsoft. Yeah,

Daniel Rubino (01:44:26):
Yeah, yeah. And she said their vantage is the fact that they actually have small, not a lot of market share right now. She says, well, we can take big risks and we're going to, and we're going to pivot and innovate very quickly because we can. And that's a really good point because I mean, so Microsoft screws up a little bit and search, so <laugh> like, but if Google screws up and search Oh, oh yeah. It's a big deal. It really affects the bottom line of the company because Google, for, for all I intents and purposes, is an advertising company at its

Leo Laporte (01:44:56):
Core. So it's interesting cuz Sheshadri used to work he worked for years at Microsoft and he says Microsoft man, at the end of his article, Microsoft managed to turn things around, but it required exceptional leadership and good fortune. Yes. Yeah. Sat

Ben Parr (01:45:13):
I feel like there's

Leo Laporte (01:45:13):
An under Absolutely.

Ben Parr (01:45:14):
Yeah. There's an undercurrent to that article which, you know, is probably that and is that Microsoft really turned around when Satya Nadela came in. I think there's an undercurrent of what he's trying to say about Google and its current leadership. I will say that their founders of Google are more involved again. And that's been a story that's been coming up and there's a reason for that. I think Google's gonna go through a large transformation, what that exactly looks like, I don't know. But they have to in the current moment even with Mike, with Meta and Zuckerberg, he's intending on making a bigger transformation. He's, he's flattening the layers. He's telling a bunch of managers and directors that they need to become individual contributors to get out. They're, that's the, he wants to not end up in the position where there's multiple layers. And it's this article.

Leo Laporte (01:46:07):
Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, I mean basically that's what Sheshadri says is it's not too late for Google, but it needs to transform. And I think the subtext is, it's not gonna happen under Sundar Pacha. He is a bureaucrat through and through. And that's not what you need at this time. You think Larry and Sergei, obviously they weren't risk adverse when they started Google. Do you think they can come back and, and, and whip it into shape how long before they park company with Cinar Pacha?

Owen JJ Stone (01:46:38):
So one thing that they could do just before the smart guys get in, the one thing that they could do is charge 1199 and give

Leo Laporte (01:46:45):

Owen JJ Stone (01:46:47):
<Laugh>. You guys have the floor take say something smart. I took the glasses off, Ben. So it wasn't you talking risk

Ben Parr (01:46:53):
Aver green check. Anytime I'm on Google meet

Leo Laporte (01:46:56):
<Laugh>, risk aversion is interesting. I mean, look at, clearly Elon Musk is not risk averse, right? He is. He's Oh lord, no. He loves taking a risk.

Ben Parr (01:47:04):
There is too much. You could

Leo Laporte (01:47:06):
Have too much risk. You could have too much. Yes.

Ben Parr (01:47:08):
But there, there, there, it depends on like, look on size and stage, you're super big. Like it makes sense. You gotta be a little bit more risk averse or like risk a whole bunch of your money. And Google, you know, has tried to launch other new things through like the alphabet structure of like other pets and all that. But none of those bets are super big yet. May people, some people know Waymo, there's like the life sciences one. But

Leo Laporte (01:47:32):
They've killed a lot of that by the way. They fired almost everybody from the area one 20. They're, they're slowly killing those vets cuz Ruth Poat, their C F O is so risk averse that she's just killing anything that doesn't make money.

Ben Parr (01:47:46):
This will be the most consequential year for Google. Yeah. In since agree. Since it's since it's launch. And I

Leo Laporte (01:47:54):
Agree how That's a good way to put it. Yeah.

Ben Parr (01:47:56):
Yeah. How, how they handle it determines everything.

Owen JJ Stone (01:48:00):
And they've already lost a hundred billion dollars just by being second dish. So

Leo Laporte (01:48:05):
<Laugh>. Yeah.

Owen JJ Stone (01:48:05):
Right. They're kind of damned if they do Damn that they don't, they, but they better do something.

Leo Laporte (01:48:09):
This is, I I thought the most interesting art part of the article, the way I see it, Google has four core cultural problems. They're all the natural consequences of having a money printing machine called ads that has kept growing relentlessly every year, hiding all other sins. And the sins he talks about are no mission, no urgency, delusions of exceptionalism. I've seen that so often in Silicon Valley where you go, Hey, we're the kings. We're in top. I remember I had friends at Atari in the eighties who said, Hey, wow, we're the kings right. We can't lose. And then finally mismanagement, he says, unfortunately, this is not my first experience watching the gradual decay of a dominant empire. I looked through, lived through more than a decade, 1999 through 2011 at Microsoft as it slowly degraded and lost its way. Right. yet Google has a few strengths Microsoft didn't have as it tried to recover. It isn't a culture of ego and fiefdoms. That was the problem at Microsoft. Man who cornets famous picture of everybody's shooting at each other. Right. The environmental, the environment, values interspection at Google. The stated core values of the company are rock solid. And there's still immense respect for Google in the external world. There is hope for Google, but <laugh> don't wait too long. I like what you said, bill. I think that's right on. This is the year, isn't it?

Ben Parr (01:49:29):
Yes. Yeah. It just is. We will see. Yeah. I we'll be covering it.

Daniel Rubino (01:49:33):
Yeah. I, I know that, you know, we should also not be too, I I think Google can definitely recover from this. Like, there, just like Microsoft, like Mi Microsoft definitely lived through this with, you know, kind of bad leadership and just all sorts of internal problems and they were able to turn it around. And I think, you know, Google's not gonna go anywhere. They may have a couple rough quarters and all that, but they got a lot of smart people still working there and they'll be able to, you know, but they gotta get the right management in place. That's true. You know, there was that other article a few months ago talking about how one of the issues where people were always creating new projects there, but then there was no support for that project going forward. And it, it, so you would get promotions for doing projects, but not promotions for having a successful product.

Leo Laporte (01:50:20):
No, no. Said it to maintain the successes. Right. So they just dwindle

Daniel Rubino (01:50:24):
Over, they would launch it and move on. Yeah. Yeah. And so this idea of Facebook, you know, it's like you brought that up. Like, he doesn't want managers to be managing managers, which, yeah. You know, I, I think a lot of people are on board. There shouldn't, there shouldn't be like a shocking revelation to have in management, I feel like. But he was rewarded handsomely for that. Their stock went through the roof, even though their quarter was kind of okay because he said, I'm just going to eliminate a lot of management. And you know, stockholders like to hear that because it's gonna be, you know, the, was it the air of optimization or something he said regarding their their way that companies could be run. But that's the smart thing and Google probably needs to do something similar to that. Do you think

Leo Laporte (01:51:03):
It's Sheryl Sandberg's departure that that's changed things that Facebook for Mark that, that he now can flatten the structure? She was for so long really running the operation.

Ben Parr (01:51:13):
It, it was the market, I think. And like, you know, like, it, it, I think maybe there's a factor to Cheryl, but really it's the market that forced it, right? Yeah. He wanted to put a lot of money into Metaverse, but the Metaverse side has barely been talked about since then. And he's talking, he's like, I think Zuckerberg has heard what the market wants to hear and is making those changes. And I think it's kind of like a founder reasserting more control and going into a little bit of wartime mode, which he needs after what's happened with like iOS changes. Like really hitting the ad business and them trying to go and fix it, fix the core pieces and then you can go and add other pieces on top. That's what's happening right now over there. And yeah, Google, they'll be fine. They have some of the smartest people on the planet. We shouldn't be talking about them as like, they're like out of the fight. That's like, not even close to what's happening. They, they pro like, they're, there's some crazy AI things that they can just pop out that will just blow people's minds. But there's like efficiency and speed and things that they will have to go and solve. And this year will tell like, can they do that or not? And there could be a lot of changes as a result if they can't.

Leo Laporte (01:52:26):
Let's take a little break. Ben Parr is here. Old friend. When did you first show up on our shows? Oh, ages. When was I, I'm glad you're back. We missed you for a while.

Ben Parr (01:52:38):
Editor. It was probably even

Leo Laporte (01:52:40):
National. It was my Ashville time. Oh yeah. Was that me?

Ben Parr (01:52:42):
2009. 10

Leo Laporte (01:52:44):
11. Long time. Something like that. Long time. You're only 12. It's kind of amazing. <Laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. God. Yeah. Yeah. New podcast is called Now <laugh>. You looked at Business Envy You got one tech guy, one Hollywood celebrity. Lots of fun. Oh yeah. Thank you for being here, Ben. Oh, when JJ Stone is Ooc. I've known you for a long time too. Stewart introduced us almost as, yep. Almost. Mm. Your wife introduced us. What were you seeing? My wife before we got together <laugh>. I, I saw her, but I knew who you were. So she did see me before I, you know, she saw you didn't have a drink. She thought I was funny. Oh, she did. Oh, that's right. She's had an eye for talent that week. That was at CES or something, right? Yes. Brought us together south by, south by Awesome. South by back, back with South By Was south by, I've been to South by in a while. Meer. Yeah. Great to have you Owen. Times change. And of course Daniel Rubino now editor-in-Chief, once again. <Laugh> Windows. Yes. And Windows Central. It feels like that's a better job than executive editor,

Daniel Rubino (01:54:03):
Or is Yeah. The executive was just, it was more just about content creation and not day-to-day management stuff. Yeah. Whereas now, but now I'm back in charge. And you like that changing a lot. Yeah. <laugh>, because I'm, I'm undoing like four years of stuff I didn't like ah, just done on our site. So you

Leo Laporte (01:54:20):
Sh you shoved him a sign, you said, let me add it. Let me add it, boss.

Daniel Rubino (01:54:24):
Yeah. Yeah. We've been doing a lot of changes and it's just been, it's been better for the staff and everybody else and Yeah. For vision.

Leo Laporte (01:54:30):
So it's, it's now, now with uncanny eye contact windows Actually, I've been wanting to use that Nvidia software cuz I have a machine with a 30 30, 80 I think int it. So I work with that. Right. You don't need a 49 or something. Yeah,

Daniel Rubino (01:54:47):
No. Just an rtx rtx

Leo Laporte (01:54:49):
I'll tell you, an RTX machine it'd be kind of fun to like always be staring straight at you.

Daniel Rubino (01:54:55):
Plus you get all the other stuff. You get the noise cancellation. Yeah. the blurring, the blurry that's happening. It's much better.

Leo Laporte (01:55:01):
Ai, that's, that looks so good. It's,

Daniel Rubino (01:55:02):
Yeah, that's, yeah. That's Envidia too. Yeah. Look

Leo Laporte (01:55:04):
At your

Daniel Rubino (01:55:04):
Hair. Little everything.

Leo Laporte (01:55:05):
You're a little hairs. You can't, it's not, it really works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want that. I'll have to try it. I don't do you have to run it under Windows? Can you run it on Linux?

Daniel Rubino (01:55:16):
Mm. I don't know that. I don't know. I'll

Leo Laporte (01:55:18):
Try it. I'll see. We'll see our show today brought to you by somebody changing the world. Shopify. Yeah. I love Shopify. Hear that sound? That is the sound of an angel getting its wings. No, that is the sound of another sale on Shopify. That first sale is magical. That's the moment. Another business dream becomes a reality. And it happens all time on Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. What's wonderful about Shopify, you start small, but no matter how big you want to grow, Shopify's there to empower you both confidence and control. Take your business to the next level. Whether you're selling fedoras or bike helmets, or in my son's case salt. He uses Shopify. He has built a business on Shopify from zero to Infiniti. He now sells out every single time. It gets more salt and, and Shopify handles it all.

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I was blown away. I said, Henry, how'd you do that? He said, Shopify. It's pretty, pretty darn impressive. And thanks to 24 7 help and an extensive business course library, if you wanna learn it, Shopify's got the resources. They're there to help you support your success every step of the way. So now let's get serious about selling and try Shopify today. This is possibility powered by Shopify. And man, I know it. I know it. I've seen it happen. It's amazing. Sign up for a dollar a month trial period. Dollar a month. Shopify.Com/Twit. That's all lowercase Shopify. S h o p i f y Take your business to the next level. Today. It was, I think it was was it wasn't even a year ago that Henry started selling Sold in Shopify. We bought, I know we bought him out for his first batch of, to give out to all our hosts on Christmas last year. So it's been just a little over a year. And now, like pH it's sailing. He's, he's actually hired people to do the fulfillment. He's got it's got it all wired Thank you Shopify for all of your support for my kids. My thank you. And for all of you. Let's see. New emojis coming. I always like to look at the new emojis. We've seen our first look in iOS 16 four, which is out in public beta now. I don't know what that shaking face is for.

Owen JJ Stone (01:58:45):
I mean like a Whoa, whoa kinda thing. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:58:48):
And then talk to the hand both left and right, I guess. Although if you put two together, you could say it's this big. What is it? It's a high five. Oh. If they're next to each other, they're high fiving. Yeah. This big,

Owen JJ Stone (01:59:02):
This big means like, okay. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:59:04):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. How big is that? It's this big. You have to put some spaces in there. There's a moose. There's a mule. There's eagles wings. Sorry. oh. Doctor fly eagles wings fly. Is that a crow? A duck? A jellyfish. That's a, what is that plant? That's a, that's a Dahlia. What is that?

Owen JJ Stone (01:59:28):
We're lavender.

Leo Laporte (01:59:29):
La Nah, it's not lavender. There's a ginger root snap peas a fan. A a comb. An afro comb.

Owen JJ Stone (01:59:41):
Hey. Hey. Isn't it

Leo Laporte (01:59:43):
Finally? What other kind of comb would that be? Can I use that comb?

Owen JJ Stone (01:59:46):
No, no, no. I'm saying, I'm saying right on dude. With your brother. We got one we

Leo Laporte (01:59:50):
Got when I was growing up and I I'm was sad that the afros went away. Cuz I thought Afros was circle. And they, and all my friends had afros would have the combs stuck in it. They would just walk around with Yeah, they

Owen JJ Stone (02:00:01):
Stuck in.

Leo Laporte (02:00:02):
Yeah. Just stuck right in there. You so great. Did you

Owen JJ Stone (02:00:05):
Ever have Afro a a Afros? Afros are still here. They're back. Damn. Haven't gone away. No, they're back. My daughter has af They, they, they never left. Afros have been around <laugh>. You know it's just not in your community. Uncle Leo. You don't see it all the time. But in my community, it has never gone away. And yes, I had an afro at an afro. So big one time I was riding my bicycle and I got a bee stuck in my ass. Freak me out. Okay.

Leo Laporte (02:00:28):
You gotta put a picture.

Owen JJ Stone (02:00:29):
15 minutes to get it out.

Leo Laporte (02:00:30):
Do you have any pictures? I want some pictures. You gotta put a picture in the

Owen JJ Stone (02:00:33):
Discord or something. I, I do have pictures of me in a fro. I

Leo Laporte (02:00:36):
Wanna see you in a fro because right now,

Owen JJ Stone (02:00:38):
When was this

Leo Laporte (02:00:40):
Long laundry man? Hey,

Owen JJ Stone (02:00:41):
Look man, I got glasses on. Cause I love you so much. You going disrespect me. I got nothing. I haven't had in, I can't have aro in decades. I want

Leo Laporte (02:00:50):
One so badly. <Laugh>.

Owen JJ Stone (02:00:54):
When, when I, when I got outta high school, my hair started running away from me. That's what happened

Leo Laporte (02:00:58):
Today. Oh, really? That quickly. That's sad. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna see a picture of you and, and your fro. There's also a a, a wooden flu. I

Owen JJ Stone (02:01:06):
Live through Leah. Now. Leah's got all my froze. Good

Leo Laporte (02:01:09):
For her. I think that's awesome. Shaking face. Pink heart Light blue heart. Gray heart. Now, I've only recently learned that the color of the heart is relevant. Jermaine. Like, you don't send a red heart to a friend, right? Is that right? What do you, who do you send A blue heart or gray heart? That seems bad. That seems like

Owen JJ Stone (02:01:31):
A Yeah, it's like a dead

Leo Laporte (02:01:32):
Heart. Dead heart. Like a jinx.

Owen JJ Stone (02:01:35):
We need to have some Gen Zs on. It's a translate.

Daniel Rubino (02:01:38):
Explain it all.

Leo Laporte (02:01:40):
Translate. Yeah. Yeah. Pink heart has been a popular request for some time. <Laugh>. This is from Emojipedia. The light blue heart and gray heart closed Some notable gaps within the heart emoji color spectrum. Oh, thank God. Oh, joy. In fact, there's a, they have a whole P d F that they've put out on the on the emoji color spectrum. Examining emoji color space is a strategy for improving the coverage of the heart emoji. This is Jennifer Daniel Redding on behalf of the Unicode Emoji Subcommittee to the Unicode Technical Committee. This is how you, by the way, this is how you get a new emoji is you, you write these long scholarly like papers.

Owen JJ Stone (02:02:29):
Well, I identify as a blackheart, just so we get that clear. So nobody has any

Leo Laporte (02:02:33):
Kind of confusion. No. But the black heart's useful. Right? That's saying something. So here's a here's the entire color space <laugh>. You can see there's, there's big gaps in the P three Wow. DCI P three color space.

Daniel Rubino (02:02:45):
They're by Purple

Leo Laporte (02:02:45):
Hearts. There's no, yeah. We need purple hearts. Right?

Owen JJ Stone (02:02:49):
Those are, those are safe for our veterans. We're not, we're not playing these

Leo Laporte (02:02:52):
Games. <Laugh>. Yeah.

Owen JJ Stone (02:02:54):
Certain colors are

Leo Laporte (02:02:55):
Preserved. So amazing. The attention put into this. Wow. I don't, it's a cr There's charts. There's co So, but I want her to tell us what it means. Yeah. <laugh>. What does it mean?

Ben Parr (02:03:10):
It's not known yet. Is that's the thing. It's gonna be known once the Gen Zs get their hands on it and they make what, you know, they tell me what you

Daniel Rubino (02:03:18):
Don't know yet. This, I just wanna know. I just wanna know when I should not use things. Because that's what gets people trouble.

Leo Laporte (02:03:22):
Exactly. Right. Like they go, dad, that's the pansexual flag. And then I go, what's pansexual? And they say, dad, and I don't, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. So, well, we now have it. If you need it, gen Z, you, you've got it. The two pushing hands emoji could be combined to create a distinct high five emoji. Look at that. You put the little dynamite explosion in there and you really, you got it going on. I still wanna know what that plant is. Hias. Synth. That's a HIAs synth. Hias synth.

Owen JJ Stone (02:03:59):

Leo Laporte (02:03:59):

Owen JJ Stone (02:04:01):
Why? I I would've thought it was lavender too when you said it. I was like, that's a good answer. Good answer.

Leo Laporte (02:04:06):
Yeah. It can be used to talk about the actual flower flowers in general, or the color Purple can also be used in reference to springtime. Maybe used as part of the symbolic table setting for now Rus the Persian New Year. Oh. So they use Hins to celebrate their new year. And then you could see all the different stylings you know, from the various folk of HIAs cents. Anyway, that's probably gave more time to that story than it really, really deserves. <Laugh>

Daniel Rubino (02:04:40):
Beat your heart out Egyptians <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:04:42):
We got new. Yeah. What about your new year? Huh? Big changes coming. Speaking of Google to YouTube, Susan Wosk, who was I think the 16th employee at Google, has been running YouTube for a long time. She is stepping down. She'll be replaced by her longtime lieutenant according to Recode Neil Mohan in a re in a letter sent to a new YouTube employees. Waki said she was leaving in in order to, I want you guys to tell me what this means cuz I, between the lines, there's something here. Start a new chapter focused on my family health and personal projects I'm passionate about.

Daniel Rubino (02:05:25):
Pushed out.

Leo Laporte (02:05:26):
Pushed out, or wants to spend more time with her money. Which is it?

Daniel Rubino (02:05:29):
I don't know. Yeah. I don't

Leo Laporte (02:05:31):
Think she, it's always hard to YouTube. Youtube has been amaz. This has been one of the few real successes at Google.

Ben Parr (02:05:38):
I I think sh like, after a certain amount of time, you really do just get tired. That's my gut guess. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:05:43):
I mean, when you vest enough shares to have, oh, I don't know, 500 million, why would you work?

Daniel Rubino (02:05:53):
Or, or maybe she also knows that something's coming down the road as bad. Let's that

Leo Laporte (02:05:57):
For you. Youtube. There you go.

Daniel Rubino (02:05:59):
Bad news, you know, knows like TikTok and everything. It's gonna really start to eat into them and you know, so she's like, I'm just getting out now. I

Leo Laporte (02:06:06):
Think that's why Sheryl Sandberg left Facebook. I think Sheryl Sandberg definitely saw it coming and said, no, I'm getting outta here before it's too late. Well,

Ben Parr (02:06:13):
If you're Cheryl is like, why deal with it anymore? Yeah. And like you made your life in career and like, you know, there was a point where we talked about her running for president and then Cambridge Analytica and Trump and everything else happened. Just go and spend time with your She just got married. Spend time with your husband.

Leo Laporte (02:06:30):
You're talking about Cheryl. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Parr (02:06:32):
Why stress? Why

Leo Laporte (02:06:33):
Stress? Like, why stress there?

Ben Parr (02:06:34):
There's like, why stress? When you could just chill, you could pay for Well a beach.

Leo Laporte (02:06:40):
You're a startup guy though, right? Care those <laugh>. So you're, you're,

Daniel Rubino (02:06:43):
And people thrive on it.

Leo Laporte (02:06:44):
Yeah. I'm, so this is my question for you, Ben, because you're, you're a serial entrepreneur. You're the kind of guy that doesn't relax and take the money and go to the beach. You keep doing the the next thing. Right?

Ben Parr (02:06:59):
This is the existential question of every entrepreneur. I think enough, if I think, look, the reason why you would do another thing is because there's a mission. Like, okay there's a default of like, okay, chill. If I like make the, like the, like f you money, whatever you wanna call that number. Yeah. But if that, then I figure out the cure for cancer. Yeah. I'm gonna go and do that because that is like a life fish and I'm gonna go change people's lives. You truly believe what you're doing is going to transform people's lives for the rest of time. You're gonna give up whatever personal thing in favor as an entrepreneur in favor of the rest of the world. But I know some entrepreneurs I'll give you one example. Myspace Tom Friend he gave me, he did MySpace.

Leo Laporte (02:07:45):
He cashed in, didn't he?

Ben Parr (02:07:47):
And he just, he, I, I've done, he goes on the beach. Yeah. He's like hanging out in Hawaii. Yeah. He's having the best time ever. He came up, he's the happiest person I know.

Leo Laporte (02:07:57):
He came up here with Trey and we went out for tacos <laugh> as a picture of me walking with with MySpace. Tom over to McNair's. We had their Korean tacos. He said they were the best street tacos he'd had outside of LA and then went back to his mansion in la He's like travels the world and does photography. I think that's why he was hanging out with Trey.

Ben Parr (02:08:23):
He has all the time in the world. I s I remember

Leo Laporte (02:08:26):
One time.

Ben Parr (02:08:27):
Yeah. Yeah. I, I, he, well, I met the first time I met him. We spent three and a half hours just chatting over t at a coffee shop in Brentwood. You don't have, if you've sold your company, you don't care anymore. And you just want to hang out. That's what you get to do.

Leo Laporte (02:08:42):
But he's unusual. Right? He's unusual.

Ben Parr (02:08:44):
He's he's the exception. Yeah.

Daniel Rubino (02:08:46):
You could also point out that maybe he's never the entrepreneur type that he, I don't think he was the thing Got into it. Yeah. In, you know, locked out. But he just decided that's, he doesn't want that lifestyle where some people, you know, are like really into it. That's what they, they've lived to do.

Leo Laporte (02:09:00):
Right? I mean, I know so many people like our friend Lu Lemur who just can't sit still. Right? They just gotta do the next thing. Everybody. By the way who is ever on MySpace knows who Tom is cuz he's your first friend. He was the guy looking over his shoulder at the blackboard. Cuz that's, that was the picture. That was, that was how little MySpace was. So anyway, Susan Wosk got into the whole thing by renting her garage to Larry and Sergey in 1998 when they were starting Google. They couldn't It's a story, huh? Classic story. It's a great

Daniel Rubino (02:09:40):
Story, isn't it? The Garage? Yeah. It, no, all all entrepreneurs

Leo Laporte (02:09:43):
Tech guys in the garage. Yeah. <laugh>. Well, they, I mean, let's be honest, they started at Stanford. Stanford still gets a lot of money from Google every year they started at Stanford. But then at some point they said, well, we want to do our own business. So we gotta move outta Stanford. Hey, look over here. Somebody's got Aru. And then Susan Wosk or her sister Anne runs 23 in me. Her mom is very I think very involved in community stuff. She, they're an interesting family though, Wiki's. So anyway, 25 years at Google, she's retiring. Seriously, Susan, if you think you wanna run a small podcast enterprise and just kind of take it from zero to a million I know somebody who could help you out there, <laugh>, just in case you want to get back into it. Right? let's see here. What else is going on? Patch Tuesday was last Tuesday. <Laugh>, I throw in another Windows story just for you, Daniel,

Daniel Rubino (02:10:39):
Even, I don't know this one. <Laugh>,

Ben Parr (02:10:42):

Daniel Rubino (02:10:43):
I, I I, I I don't do Patch Tuesdays. It just

Leo Laporte (02:10:46):
<Laugh>. It's an endless parade. A litany of exploits. Who needs to know actually the reason it's Jermaine, both Apple and Microsoft this week fixed zero days that were actively being exploited. And this is, this is what's so scary about, you know, the, the modern world. Apple had a problem in web web kit that had to put out a patch for everything. Ios iPad, os, Mac, os, I think even Watch os and TV os were updated because WebKit had a essentially zero click exploitable flaw that somebody with malicious content on a website, if you went to that website, you'd be owned. That'd be it. You're done. That is kind of as bad as it gets Microsoft fixed three actively exploited, zero day vulnerabilities. It just keeps happening. I don't know. I don't know why.

Daniel Rubino (02:11:38):
So do you think getting back to ai, AI is gonna play an important role in doing this? Both in interesting looking at code and being able to spot these things as well as using AI to do like hacks on itself to see if it can bind these flaws? Cuz that seems like a pretty good use of technology.

Leo Laporte (02:11:57):
I, I, okay, so this is a good example of is that anthropomorphizing ai, if it's just spicy auto correct, how's it gonna know if there's a security flaw? And yet we've seen it write code. Certainly that's what co-pilot does. Yeah. but it writes code without understanding the code. I don't know. That's an

Ben Parr (02:12:16):
Interesting question, but it does write it really well. 

Leo Laporte (02:12:19):
Yeah, cuz it's copying from somebody else basically

Ben Parr (02:12:22):
Right there. There's, there's definitely AI being built to help try to identify vulnerabilities, but vulnerabilities falls into this category. Same as like writing opinion pieces or investigative journalism where you have to like, think critically about like, oh, like I'm gonna push on the edge of this thing and then I'm gonna push on the edge of this thing and then like, find the like, little hole. And that's just not a thing that the existing AI systems can do really well. They will be getting better and better at it. And I do think at some point a lot of vulnerabilities could be patched by ai, but humans will always find some unique way to break stuff up. We'll say. And for now, at least, I think this is one area where like it's, I'm trying to write a list of like all the jobs where AI is not going to immediately replace a bunch of people, or at least like, could be much harder. And like investigative journalism on this is on this list. Like like the sec like person who is checking for those security vulnerabilities is probably another one. Just because that is requires some unique level of humid intuition.

Leo Laporte (02:13:33):
We do know for now, we do know that AI chat, G B T specifically can write malware. Steve Gibson talked about this on security. Now cybersecurity researchers from Checkpoint have observed a tool being used by cyber criminals to improve and sometimes build from scratch malware and ransomware using chat G P T. It's not the most sophisticated malware, but it works. It's potentially a big problem. I don't know, is it this, is that a different, I think it's different to create malware than to find bugs. I don't know. I don't know. Well, this is all gonna be very interesting. I think you're right. I think we do have to do this week in ai, or I'm sorry, what do we call it? Yeah, artificial intelligence. Definitely not evil. Yeah. <laugh>.

That, that's Google's tagline by the way. I know exactly. Definitely from, we're definitely no evil. Yeah, that's definitely where that came from. Before we wrap things up, I, I do wanna show you something, a new sponsor that we have really been having fun playing with called Miro, m i r o. Some of you may be familiar with Miro. The idea of Miro is it is a blank slate. A a networked sharable whiteboard. That can be almost anything. So one of the hard things about talking about Miro is, is it, it it's so amorphous. You can do anything with it. We're building an ask the tech guy board right now. We're gonna use it for preparing our show. Ask the tech guys. Mike and I are are working on that right now. Miro can be so many things it, and what's great about it is it opens up and democratizes collaboration and input.

If you've got a team with some people at home, some people at work, some people working nights, some people working days, you'll love Miro. It's a collaborative visual whiteboard that brings all your great work in one to one place. And everybody can access it from home in a hybrid workspace online anytime of the day. So you could put an idea there, somebody can respond to that later in the day. It gives product teams a perpetual space where they can drag and drop insights and data so that nothing's lost. Everything stays. And you can scale it up and down so you can zoom out to see the big picture or zoom in to see the details. Miro covers all kinds of use cases. You can build visual assets, you can present findings. It's fantastic for your next zoom call or Google meet call because if you're doing a brainstorm on a call, you can have a timer, you can have polls.

There's all these interactive features you can use to make that meeting more effective. You could build out your product vision on a mural board by brainstorming with sticky notes and comments, live reactions. That voting tool, it helps you come to consensus quickly. You can set a timer, say, we got 30 minutes to do this. Express yourself in creative ways. Bring the whole group together around one idea, whether it's a quick wire frame, a drawing, a doodle, you do forget the napkin. Just do it on the, on the mural. Or you can do kind of a mood board with clipping in an images and mockups from the Miro board. People who use Miro find it transformational. On average, they report saving 80 hours a user a year just by streamlining conversations and cutting down meeting times. As a result, Miro gives your team the chance to always stay connected to real-time information.

Gives the project managers the product leads a bird's eye view of the whole project. You can create a can band board and assigned tasks. It's great for Agile. Make sure nothing slips through the cracks. Get your first three boards for free. Start working better. Miro, m i r, m i r When you're at Miro, check out the Miro verse. This is where I got a lot of inspiration. And if you're kind of still wondering as I was, you know, what's going on? What is Miro? Go to the Miro verse. These are projects from the Miro community that have, they've uploaded that you can use as a template, a starting point. Spongebob retro <laugh> sustainability infused un journey mapping. You can use it for icebreakers. There's some of my favorites are, there's somebody from the UK government who uploaded <laugh> a Harry Potter retrospective. I'm not sure, I'm not sure what they're doing with it, but here's the thing you can find out if you want by just adding that template, using that template for your own brainstorming. It's it's, I just think it's, it's fantastic. There's a Beatles retrospective here. Midnight sailboats, <laugh>.

Get some ideas in the Miro verse. Start playing with Miro. I guarantee you you'll get inspiration, you'll get ideas and you'll get it done. That's why we're gonna develop this mural board for as the tech guys, which is how we're gonna plan the show from now on. And and once we do, I'll sh I'll share it with you and show you, show you more. Right now it's kind of a secret, but that's coming, that's coming soon. So thank you Miro, for your support. Thank you for helping us make our shows better. Let Miro help you make your business better. Miro, m i r And this Thursday they're having a getting started with Miro webinar. So this will be a good time to, to go in there, Miro. Thank you, Miro. Now I wanna remind you that this isn't the only show on the network all week long. We've been having great fun. In fact, that's why Victor made us this little mini movie to share with you. Aunt Pruit, hands on photography, our community manager in the club twit. This is the this is Aunt Seal of disapproval. No, thank you, sir. Which is you like promising. And this says no thank you sir. Then, and here's aunt's bag. Can't seal of approval. Now that's legit <laugh>.

Owen JJ Stone (02:19:37):
I worked so much, so hard on my neck and my traps and he cut my neck and my

Leo Laporte (02:19:41):
Traps. Oh yeah, come on. There should be some biceps at least, didn't it? No. Come on man.

Speaker 10 (02:19:45):
That's real terrible. I'm so sorry. Aunt.

Leo Laporte (02:19:48):
Previously on TWiThands on Mac

Speaker 11 (02:19:52):
Coming up on hands on Mac, I am going to show you how to provide some remote support for people who are struggling on their iPhones and their iPads and even their Macs

Leo Laporte (02:20:01):
Mac Break weekly. Jason got his home pods.

Speaker 10 (02:20:04):
Problem is not how they sound. <Laugh> the problem is that airplay is not reliable. That Siri is not reliable and that the stereo pair system that they've built is not

Leo Laporte (02:20:14):
Reliable. Oh no, that's disappointing. This week in Google,

Speaker 12 (02:20:17):
I think that generative AI like chat G p t is going to absolutely kill search. The reason is, is not because it's gonna give better answers. The reason is that it's very trivial to build it into other things. It's gonna be literally everywhere and every time you're doing anything, the generative AI will be right there with you as a partner. Twit. Now that's

Leo Laporte (02:20:39):
Legit <laugh>. Hey, that's our new slogan twit. Now that's legit. Thank you aunt Proof for that one. <Laugh> Leo. Yes. We have to get this week in AI up. I think I might have to do that. Has to happen. It's be, it's really dominated all of our shows for the last month. It's both fascinating and it's hard to understand or hard to decide for me anyway, whether it's gimmicky or it's transformative. You guys have done a good job of, I've

Owen JJ Stone (02:21:07):
Already, I've already told this to you twice. You have your answer after today, okay? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I didn't, I I, I've, what did I, I've been on this thing for over 10 years. I've told you vrs trash, I told you man with you versus trash. I agree with you. And I've been right. We still aren't in Mars. So this, and I'm telling you AI's real, get on the bandwidth. How could

Leo Laporte (02:21:26):
It be though? Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I gotta say, Owen, you were right about the first three. Don't you worry that maybe you'll be wrong about this one. That this is just yet another BS idea coming from big tech in Silicon Valley.

Owen JJ Stone (02:21:39):
So here's the thing. Oh, so to that point I love how so many crypto bros are now AI bros. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:21:47):
Oh my goodness. That's what scares

Owen JJ Stone (02:21:49):
Me, right? It is scary. Like yeah, it's like it is scary. Yeah, but you know what the difference is? One thing. Oh sure, you can make some money, but you could also lose your shirt <laugh>. And if you're playing these games, you get through a prize. Well, that's the

Leo Laporte (02:22:02):
Good news that open ai, they're not asking for my money. Really? It's not, it

Owen JJ Stone (02:22:07):
Op I Uncle Leo, I'm, I wouldn't steer you wrong. I'm usually right. And if I'm not right, you know, what happens? I shut up. I don't know nothing. Are you gonna

Leo Laporte (02:22:15):
Print the T-shirt? It says AI's the next big thing and bury that in your yard and come back five years and

Owen JJ Stone (02:22:20):
Tell us I might, I'm I'm, I might have something in cooking, you know? Yeah. Think you should. I'm right.

Ben Parr (02:22:24):
Owen is a human crystal ball. And people should just pay a lota money for him to tell what will and will not happen <laugh>. But I totally agree. We, we are entering something fundamentally different here

Leo Laporte (02:22:37):
This week, a big week. We will be watching this with interest on Tuesday. The Supreme Court hears arguments in Gonzalez versus Google. This is a very important case that m could jeopardize. I hope I'm not overstating this. I don't think I am the internet as we know it. Because the argument and the, the suit was filed by a family of a young woman who was killed in a terrorist attack in Paris, in a cafe by Islamic terrorists. Their con, the family's contention is that Google promotes terrorism algorithmically on YouTube. Maybe this is why Susan Wokinski quit. And, and they want, they're suing them. They're saying, we got, you gotta stop doing that. Google says, we're protected by section two 30 of the Communications Decency Act, which says we have the right to moderate to delete or not, but not to be liable for stuff other people put on our platform.

So we're not liable for terrorist videos that are put on YouTube. We're gonna take 'em down as quick as we can. But you can't sue us because they exist. They also say we're not liable if the algorithm recommends them. You gotta have algorithms in the world. In fact, a bunch of Reddit moderators anonymously Supreme Court allowed 'em for the first time in my memory to anonymously put up a amicus brief saying we use we use these recommendation engines, these tools to help us moderate. We need the power to moderate, or Reddit would be a CED pool. I, I think that there's some of the argument is misguided. That, that a lot of these people, by the way, the Biden administration has now filed a brief in support of limiting Section two 30 along with Ja Ted Cruz of Texas and Josh Hawley in Missouri for different reasons, but b but both sides don't like section two 30. But my problem is they're all looking at big tech. They're all saying, well see, it allows Google or Twitter or Facebook to get away with murder. And they're forgetting us, the little guys who have communities, we have an irc, we have a forums, we have a masin on instance, we have Discord chat. If we lost our liability protection which could very well happen in this case, we'd have to shut them down because I can't afford to face hundreds of frivolous lawsuits over content not posted by me, but posted by our community. I

Daniel Rubino (02:25:08):
Would never, I never understood this

Leo Laporte (02:25:10):
Will affect you too. I never Windows central if you have comments. Yeah.

Daniel Rubino (02:25:13):
I never understood how people don't understand. Like that's why we have communities and how the internet works and how everything grew. I guess we could talk about, and this is where the Democrats come in, right? They actually want more moderation and then the Republicans want less cuz freedom of speech. But I, this freedom of speech thing drives me nuts because it's like, I get it, but that's not, it's not a, the freedom of speech is not a constitutional issue here. It's, it's not. We're talking about private property and when you own a website or you know, a service, it's private property. It's no different than if like someone came into your house and started protesting. You could be like, please get outta my house. They can't go, well, freedom of speech, you can go like, yeah, private property trumps that. Get out of, off of my property.

But this whole thing with this section two 30, it's so strange to me because it's like the same people who advocated for free market, private property and all this are now like, well, Twitter is so big, it should be a public square. It's like, says who. Like, it's not that big of all the social networks. Twitter is actually one of the lowest in terms of engagement and usage and people who are actually on it. It's not a talent square just because you say it is. And even so we can't just snap our fingers and decide, well now we've gotta throw out all the laws and make that some sort of protected entity unless you wanna nationalize it. But no one wants a national,

Leo Laporte (02:26:35):
No one wants that.

Daniel Rubino (02:26:36):
Yeah, yeah. I mean now you're a socialist, right? So it's like, it's such a weird thing that the people who defend capitalism and private property are now all of a sudden like, well no, you know, this is a community thing. Like really we're all now a part of this like, socialist thing. I don't know, it's weird.

Leo Laporte (02:26:52):
I think part of this is that it's, it's safe and easy for a politician from the left or the right to attack big tech right now. But watch out. Watch out. Because it's not just big tech and you know, you can make them the, your poster child for bad things. But frankly, section two 30 gives us the right to moderate. If somebody says something that's bad in our chat or our forums, we can, we can stop them. We can ban them, we can kick them out. We can delete their messages. And section two 30 means they can't come back and sue us. So if you get rid of two 30, you're losing the right to moderate as well as the <laugh>, the right not to moderate. People post stuff on these sites. I don't want to be liable for it. And even if you're actively moderating as Google is on YouTube, they're taking that as videos down. Now what about the contention? And this is the Biden administration's contention that you can save two 30. Just take out the part where it's making algorithmic recommendations. Should, should that be protected, right? This,

Ben Parr (02:27:53):
This is, so the case is like, and it's like really worth going deep into this case. And I I do recommend there's a YouTube channel Legal Eagle and he's yeah, he's, he in depth onto this. He's great, he's fantastic. He has a great video on this specific subject, but it, they're not going after all of section two 30 in this lawsuit. They're going after they're trying to claim that YouTube is acting as a publisher because of the algorithm. So basically that because the algorithm is curating and recommending something, it should be outside of section two 30. But that's also what, but that is dangerous.

Leo Laporte (02:28:26):
Yeah, well that's Ed, that's that's what an editor does. That's what you do. You know, I mean

Ben Parr (02:28:33):
So but the, that's the point. They're trying to say if that's what if what's an, an editor would do, an editor wouldn't have the right to

Leo Laporte (02:28:38):
Editors are protected publishing. No, editors

Ben Parr (02:28:40):
Are, but it depends on the, which, it depends if you say editor for a news website might be not protected.

Leo Laporte (02:28:47):
No News editor websites are also protected by two 30. So

Ben Parr (02:28:51):
And that would be yes. Then if, if, if, if the Supreme Court in this case decided to strike it down chaos all across, can you imagine the internet?

Leo Laporte (02:29:00):
But, and, and I guess the question, and by the way, I argued at first in, in favor of this kind of limited interpretation of well you don't need algorithms. The problem is who defines what's a good algorithm or bad algorithm, right? And that's what Reddit moderators are saying. And that was what convinced me is no, no, we use algorithms. We need algorithms. That's how we find the bad content. There's so much volume. We need algorithms. And if you ban them, you really cause huge problems. There is a very good go to Tech Dirt. They have a page on Tech dirt about Section two 30 called somebody on the internet Is Wrong, in which they explain section two 30 in great detail and why all of the things the Biden administration, Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz say are not, not accurate. Not not real. Yeah. And and, and they are, they're, they're straw men because they don't like whatever they don't like. But we, I think, and I think I'm not alone in this, I think the ef f agrees, epic agrees we need section two 30, or there will not be the only thing left on the internet will be big companies that can defend themselves. There will not be communities. It's very, very dangerous. Owen, do you have an opinion on this? <Laugh>?

Owen JJ Stone (02:30:22):
The basic opinion is, again, when you say things are scary and they have to have solutions, we don't have the proper tools to fix the things that need to be fixed. Yeah. And at least people are bringing attention to it. Because so many things, there's so much going on right now. There's something like this. Like we, we need to have focus on it and we need to make sure that we're doing the right things to ensure that things get worked out. Because right now it's like stuff's flying at you and then we forget to do the things that you need to get done and then everybody will complain later when something goes wrong. So

Ben Parr (02:30:55):
Yeah, the, there's, it's an open question how this Supreme Court would vote on this. And I'm sure there's some legal analyst who can tell me what they think each one would vote. But if it got struck down, I would expect Congress to scramble very quickly to write an updated law. But it would also have it's tons of issues. It would, there would be chaos for sure. Yeah.

Daniel Rubino (02:31:19):
<Laugh>. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of these people involved don't know tech. That's kind of the problem. And then you get lobbies. That's

Owen JJ Stone (02:31:25):
The biggest problem. <Laugh>. Yeah, that's the biggest problem. And

Daniel Rubino (02:31:28):
So it's it's it's kinda scary. And, and I think part of it too, it getting back to the publisher thing and that that riles a lot of people especially on the right, you know, it's like, well you want it both ways. And like, yes, <laugh>, we do want it both ways as a publisher and a website because I want my, you know, first amendment right to publish things, but I also wanna be able to moderate my community. And I think a lot of the you know, people who are against this stuff have just never run a website or community or any kind of business because when you do, you wanna curate the community so that they get the best experience. And if it's just total chaos and horrible things are being posted, no one wants to use your service cuz it's terrible. So

Ben Parr (02:32:08):
I, what is just called one last thing, cuz like most politicians do not know what they're talking about. This one positive. There is a Congressman Don Bayer, I think I'm saying his name correctly. He's actually, he's 72 and he's getting a machine learning degree at university. Right. Bravo now Bra

Leo Laporte (02:32:23):
Bravo. Well, and Ron Widen wrote, wrote this during the process of negotiating the Communications Decency Act, he and others were concerned about the impact it would have on free discussion on the internet. So he wrote, and this it's brief, it's beautiful, it's like a constitutional clause. It's just very simple, but it's 23 words that protect the internet. And it's so important. It's not the only case the Supreme Court will be hearing this week. The next day they're hearing another case. Relatives of Na Na Ross a Las a Jorda Jordanian citizen was killed in an Islamic attack in Istanbul in 2017. His family's accusing Twitter, Google and Facebook of aiding and abetting the spread of militant Islamic ideology. This doesn't specifically address two 30, but it's the very next day. I will be listening with interest to both day's arguments. And of course we won't know until the court rules in the spring. But it makes me very nervous. And when I see, when I see President Biden, Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz in the same boat, I get very, very afraid this is this, if you go get both the left and the right agreeing on something like this I think there's a great, great chance it's gonna happen.

Owen JJ Stone (02:33:50):
It reminds me of like politicians running over CDs and telling me that, you know, crime is because people make music and rap music, right? Yep. The video games are gonna destroy. I'm like, so the people living in impoverished neighborhoods reporting through music, what they're living through is not the problem of the fact that they're living in poverty and in those exactly dangerous situations. Thank you. Is the fact that they make music that sounds cool. Telling people Yeah, hey, we're in living in hell here. Yeah. You get some help. Yeah. That's the actual problem. And again, it's been the same thing. That's why I wish we had term limits in every single position. And I, I love yo uncle Leo, but I'm trying to cut people off at 65 at the legal age of retirement, you can no longer be a politician. And yes, everybody's gotta go to the school. But as, and take some kind of test as, as

Leo Laporte (02:34:35):
I have to say, as Ben pointed out, there are plenty of people over 65 who are taking the time, are learning the information. I

Owen JJ Stone (02:34:42):
66, you say plenty

Leo Laporte (02:34:44):

Owen JJ Stone (02:34:45):
I could be

Leo Laporte (02:34:46):
Between, you're saying I shouldn't be able to serve. I think I have a pretty good sense of what this is. I,

Owen JJ Stone (02:34:50):
I'm, I'm saying you've got a pretty good gig and you're not gonna go be apology. Well, I'm not running

Leo Laporte (02:34:55):
For Congress.

Owen JJ Stone (02:34:56):
You're ire absolutely right. You were, you were probably one of the 13th wonders of the world. The fact that you keep so much knowledge in your brain, you should be doing something more for society to be honest and fair. But right now, you got a good gig. I'm not trying to put you out there for

Ben Parr (02:35:09):
The best, the

Owen JJ Stone (02:35:09):
Exception. Okay. Do your job.

Leo Laporte (02:35:11):
I don't think rule. You don't think well as an old guy, age shouldn't be the litmus test for knowledge of technology. Yeah,

Owen JJ Stone (02:35:19):
I agree. Well, it shouldn't be, but I'm trying to put some, I'm trying to put some parameters in here. I'm trying to, I'm trying to gap this thing. I'm trying. You might even be AI

Leo Laporte (02:35:26):
Over 60. Steve Jobs would be over 65. I mean this,

Owen JJ Stone (02:35:31):
They're not

Leo Laporte (02:35:32):
Politicians. It's my generation that changed the world. So you could thank me very much and I'm my and my elder.

Ben Parr (02:35:38):

Owen JJ Stone (02:35:40):
You're, you're not giving,

Leo Laporte (02:35:41):
You'll be on the porch playing checkers.

Owen JJ Stone (02:35:43):
Change the world thing. Oh my goodness. Oh goodness. Your generation changed the world. We did

Ben Parr (02:35:50):

Owen JJ Stone (02:35:50):
Okay. Okay. Okay, boomer. All right.

Leo Laporte (02:35:53):
<Laugh>. Do. This would happen

Ben Parr (02:35:56):
Every generation.

Owen JJ Stone (02:35:57):
I'm not here with,

Leo Laporte (02:35:57):
I'm out here. That's true. Exactly. Generat.

Owen JJ Stone (02:35:59):
I'm out here with, you know, we used to have kids in the coal mines and now we don't, you know, remember, remember had kids at the farm and they couldn't re a lot of people change the world on Kalia. Okay, y'all had a little part to it, but right now I'm trying to put y'all out to pastor and the political sphere. 30, whatever the age of starts. 18 to 65. That's 65. Both. Don't live your life. Podcast, our empire. You know, don't do what you're doing.

Ben Parr (02:36:22):
All, all right. Solution for Senate every six years, it is only people over 65. And then the next six years, it's only people under 45. And then you alternative,

Leo Laporte (02:36:33):
Oh, know,

Ben Parr (02:36:33):
It's not real. <Laugh>,

Leo Laporte (02:36:35):
All of those draconian solutions.

Owen JJ Stone (02:36:38):
Then take the glasses off. Ben, that sounded terrible. You, you, I know. It's terrible. Now that was not Benon. Don't take the glasses off. Don't, that was Ben. All right.

Ben Parr (02:36:46):
I surrender the glasses a i'll

Leo Laporte (02:36:48):
Terrible idea. I'll tell, I'll tell you who's ruining the world. You kids with your TikTok. The TikTok Kia Challenge, which has led to hundreds of car thefts nationwide and including at least 14 reported crashes and eight fatalities. According to nitsa, the National Highway tra traffic Safety Administration thieves, known as the Kia Boys with a z sounds like a rap star to me, would post instructional videos about how to bypass. It was actually trivially easy to bypass the vehicle's security system using a USB cable. Many 2015 to 2019. Hyundai and Kia vehicles have lack something called electronic immobilizes that prevent the thieves from just breaking in and bypassing the ignition. Of course, in my day, with a screwdriver, you just pull the ignition wires out from under the steering column and you could jumpstart the car. But that's another story. <Laugh>. You open the door with a hangar and you get in there. Anyway the feature is a standard equipment on, on other vehicles from other manufacturers. Hyundai and Kia are now offering free software updates for millions of their cars to help protect. They're gonna update the theft alarm software logic. This is their fix that will make the alarm sound instead of for just 30 seconds for a minute.

Owen JJ Stone (02:38:19):
<Laugh>, that's the fix. So a Philadelphia Eagles player had his car stolen the day of the, the San Francisco game. Yeah. Someone stole his like, high-end Kia Genesis, whatever it was. And I'm just thinking to myself like, okay, so you're gonna make the alarm. Like, I'm working, bro. I'm at work overnight. An eight hour shift in the middle of an Amazon warehouse. I can't even go to the bathroom. You think I'm gonna hear this alarm going off for half an hour, an hour? I'm not like, I need it fixed. I need the I'll fix it fixed.

Leo Laporte (02:38:49):
I think they can,

Owen JJ Stone (02:38:50):
Every car can be stolen.

Leo Laporte (02:38:51):
Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

Owen JJ Stone (02:38:52):
No. But every, every car could be stolen. You know what I mean? You get the right equipment. You could roll with somebody's crib with a signal jammer named, parlay the signal from the key, letting nobody by the door. I'm not, oh wait, I'm not telling nobody how to do it. I'm just saying it can be done. I'm just

Leo Laporte (02:39:03):
Get a garage, my friends get a garage.

Owen JJ Stone (02:39:06):

Ben Parr (02:39:07):
If you want to get Owen's tips on how to steal cards using signal blockers, go to his TikTok <laugh>.

Owen JJ Stone (02:39:14):

Ben Parr (02:39:14):
Is an interesting thing of how TikTok can like, make an entire tread so quickly and like spread knowledge so quickly. Yeah. Like good knowledge and bad knowledge doesn't

Leo Laporte (02:39:23):
Matter. Knowledge is knowledge. Right. It's power. It's powerful. It's an amazing platform for that. Let's see what else. I'm just, I'm getting the seeds in the stems here. Those stories that have filtered down to the bottom Sam, Sam Bankman Freed is in trouble. You know, he's prevented, he's the guy who founded ftx. He's out on a quarter million dollars bail staying with mom and dad on the Stanford campus. But one of the, one of the provisions of his bail was he couldn't use Signal or any encrypted Messenger. Messenger because they're afraid he would attempt to tamper with witnesses. Now he's in trouble for using a VPN n <laugh>. He at least twice has used a VPN to surf the net. His lawyers say he wanted to watch the freaking Super Bowl <laugh>. And he, and he couldn't watch it cuz it was the February 12th was one of the days and he couldn't watch it, but he had a he had a some sort of N F L plus subscription that he was gonna use in he needed to use a VPN n for it. But the government says, no, no, we can't. Fox,

Owen JJ Stone (02:40:37):
Fox, Fox exhibit app for free on the app. He could have watched it on Fox for free. I don't know.

Ben Parr (02:40:42):
I I have only one thing to say for this story, which is if he was not rich and white, his bail would've been revoked and he'd be in jail and he should be in jail right now.

Owen JJ Stone (02:40:58):
Keep the glasses on, Ben. Keep the glasses on.

Leo Laporte (02:41:00):
Smart man. <Laugh>. He's a smart man. Rich and white. Spot

Owen JJ Stone (02:41:02):
On. That's right. Spot on.

Leo Laporte (02:41:04):
But if you're gonna get arrested, it does help to be rich and white. I'm just saying <laugh>. Coming up with a quarter billion dollars bail is, you know, that's a good start. Where'd that money come from? I thought he was bankrupt.

Ben Parr (02:41:17):
The, there's some guarantors that they think they went public. They're like other members of the Stanford faculty or something. Oh my God, I think I saw that. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:41:24):
His parents are professors at Stanford. Buzzfeed has launched quizzes created by AI infinity quizzes. Do you, are you ready for an Infinity quiz? Six quizzes, four playing on Valentine's Day. One sponsored by an advertiser. One just for premium subscribers. The quizzes are powered by Buzzy the robot using open AI's. A p I trained in a blend of text code and information prior to June, 2021. So don't ask questions from the old time, the early the new times. Here are some, just in case you wanna take 'em. Create your own romcom. Generate a breakup, text date, your celebrity crush. Find your soulmate. Hi. It's a house plant. Create your own cinematic universe for you and your friends, or create a cult for you and your friends.

Owen JJ Stone (02:42:17):
Wait, I can date my celebrity

Leo Laporte (02:42:19):
Crush. Would you like to?

Owen JJ Stone (02:42:21):
Yeah. Ryan Gosling is my guy.

Leo Laporte (02:42:24):

Owen JJ Stone (02:42:25):
I just, I just want to be his friend. He's like the coolest guy in the world

Leo Laporte (02:42:29):
Crush. Could just friendships be his friend crush. Yeah. Crushes could be friendships. Yeah. Yeah. Data brokers.

Owen JJ Stone (02:42:35):
Gosling, I might be a little bit more

Leo Laporte (02:42:37):
Data brokers. You might wanna watch out for this then are selling your mental health data. And it's not illegal. One company advertised. This is from an article in the Washington Post. One company advertised the names and home addresses of people with depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress or bipolar disorder. Another sold at database featuring thousands of aggregated mental health records starting at $275 per thousand ailment contacts.

Wow. Data brokers. This is a study published this week by a team at university's Sanford School of Public Policy. They contacted data brokers to say, Hey, what kind of mental health information I could, could I buy? She found 11 companies that researcher joined. Cam found 11 companies willing to sell bundles of data that included information on what antidepressants people were taking, whether they struggle with insomnia or attention issues, details on other medical ament ailments, including Alzheimer's disease or bladder control difficulties. Some of the data was offered in aggregate form that would, for instance, allow a buyer to know a rough estimate of how many people in an individual zip code might be depressed. But other brokers offered personally identifiable data names, addresses, incomes. One data broker sales representative pointed to list named anxiety sufferers. Consumers.

Daniel Rubino (02:44:04):
Imagine if employers get that. Oh my God. Like some employers abuse that. Yes. You know,

Leo Laporte (02:44:09):
Consumers with clinical depression in the United States, you could even get a sample spreadsheet.

Owen JJ Stone (02:44:17):
This feels like it should be

Daniel Rubino (02:44:18):

Leo Laporte (02:44:19):
It isn't.

Owen JJ Stone (02:44:20):
How is it, how is it not illegal?

Leo Laporte (02:44:23):
The law doesn't protect the information. What's hipaa? It's protected by hipaa. Your doctor, your hospital health entities can't share it, but it doesn't protect the same information when it's sent anywhere else, including app makers companies. Yeah. That, you know, so if so there, so you know, a pharmacy maybe, I guess a pharmacy might be protected by hipaa. Hipaa, but the big, big cul is, is gonna be apps.

Daniel Rubino (02:44:48):
Right. That's what I'm saying. Like, you know, this is, you know, talk about what Owen mentioned earlier about spying on yourself. I mean, this is what that is, right? Yeah. This is people entering data into, and, you know, getting back to being chat. People are having these conversations, but they're entering in a lot of information. Now, I'm not saying Microsoft's gonna identify you by name, but you're, you're voluntarily putting a lot about your own psychology out there when you use these chat things. And when you use these medical apps and there's so many of them, now you're putting your information out there and it's it's not surprising that's this happens, but you're giving out a lot of information that's not necessarily protected by your doctor that you used to have that same relationship.

Owen JJ Stone (02:45:28):
Terrible. And I don't have any foil right now, but these are the moments where when people make fun of me for living in a black site or when they go on my Twitter, it says, I was born in 1949. Or they go on Facebook and it says that I'm a white man that lives in New York City and I was born in 1942. These are the reasons why all of my information is scattered across ethos. That's my phone, my name, my house ain't my name, my car and my name. They're not gonna get me out here. I'm not snitching on myself.

Leo Laporte (02:45:54):
Two of the smartest, two of the smartest people I know you Owen and and doc Father Robert Baller, both fuzz your identities on the net. Robert goes to huge lengths to, to completely fuzz information. And it's usually the people, honestly, it's usually the people who have a little bit of a dark streak to them anyway, and kind of know what hackers are capable of and are aware of what can be done. Father Robert goes to Defcon all the time and he knows

Owen JJ Stone (02:46:25):
I don't trust Americans. I know better. Yeah, I know, I know what people can do on the internet. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:46:31):

Owen JJ Stone (02:46:31):
That's why I say, oh, you go out your address. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:46:33):
You look great for somebody who's 71 years old. I just wanna say that. Right.

Owen JJ Stone (02:46:36):
Hey, incredible. You know, bla you know, black, black don't crack. Just so you know, that's what I say. Every time my birthday pops up <laugh> and they ask me about it, but yo, on Facebook I'm white, so I got a fane on that a little bit. But you know, oh, they see the name and they mostly, I gotta say I love all the people who say that dating

Leo Laporte (02:46:50):
Apps, people who say that out loud are mostly white. So <laugh>, you, you fit right in with the profile. Yeah. Yeah.

Owen JJ Stone (02:46:57):
My, my, my favorite thing is the advertisers. I get like, you know, single and 70 is my jam. You know, there's a lot of the looking grandmas out there. I mean, I love it. Ads I get, it's just, it's great targeting. They're missing the boat on me. They're missing the boat. No money. Me.

Leo Laporte (02:47:09):
Mr. Daniel Rubino, it's always a pleasure to have you on Editor-in-Chief Windows Central Plug something. Tell us about your great podcast.

Daniel Rubino (02:47:19):
Yeah, we do the podcast every Fridays 1:30 PM Eastern Time on our YouTube channel. And that's a live video broadcast. And of course then it goes out to all the podcast affiliates afterwards. And yeah. And other than that, we're just doing a, a ton of work on Windows Central for Microsoft, Xbox, windows ai. We're going hard on the AI stuff a lot. Gaming, gaming is always gonna be big. And so we're covering that a lot. It's it's been, it's it's a fun year. I have to bet. Like this is one of the more interesting years to be covering tech and some very excited about it.

Leo Laporte (02:47:50):
There was a long period of work, being a Microsoft reporter was like the fate worse in death.

Daniel Rubino (02:47:56):
Sure. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:47:57):
And it's not true anymore. But the last four or five years have been really exciting and interesting,

Daniel Rubino (02:48:01):
Even though we don't have Windows phone.

Leo Laporte (02:48:04):
Yeah. That's kind of sad. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel always being

Owen JJ Stone (02:48:07):
An iPhone.

Leo Laporte (02:48:09):
Daniel, show us your big fat muff

Daniel Rubino (02:48:12):
<Laugh>. What?

Leo Laporte (02:48:14):

Daniel Rubino (02:48:16):
Anyone listening to this? An audio is gonna be really confusing. Yes.

Leo Laporte (02:48:19):
That big.

Owen JJ Stone (02:48:20):
What is it called? I know exactly what he was talking about. Yeah. What,

Leo Laporte (02:48:23):
What's that called? It's on his microphone. What is that?

Daniel Rubino (02:48:26):
A chaotic, chaotic. I, they call it,

Leo Laporte (02:48:29):
It's, I still know what it's doing for you, but it's working. Whatever.

Owen JJ Stone (02:48:32):
I still say it's the Chinese spy balloon. It

Daniel Rubino (02:48:34):
Looks like it, it's that too. Yeah. I'll,

Owen JJ Stone (02:48:36):
I'll buy that too. And

Leo Laporte (02:48:37):
Thanks for the eye contact <laugh>. I have to say it makes you, and at first, if you don't know it, it's, if you know it, it's a little creepy, but at fir but at first, but if you don't know it, it makes you seem much more engaging and, and kind of Sure. I'm kind of falling in love with you if you don't mind me saying so

Daniel Rubino (02:48:53):
Look deep into my eyes.

Leo Laporte (02:48:54):
You're looking, you're looking right in my eyes. I have a slightly crossed eye. You think it would fix that?

Daniel Rubino (02:49:00):
Yeah, I probably would. Yeah, because like right now, like I'm actually closing one eye. What?

Leo Laporte (02:49:05):
No, you are not.

Owen JJ Stone (02:49:06):
What? No, you are win. That's crazy. No, no, it can do. And then his eyebrow. Do it again. Do it again. Put him back. Do it again.

Leo Laporte (02:49:14):
So you could tell he is closing one eye cuz his eyebrow on the on the right is going up. Yeah. Yep.

Ben Parr (02:49:19):
So good. Oh,

Owen JJ Stone (02:49:21):
That's crazy. Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:49:23):
<Laugh>. Wow. Mr. Eye contact Daniel Rubino. Ladies gentlemen, <laugh> Ben Par. He's in the big Apple taking, taking class at the WeWork University. <Laugh>, thank you for finding a spot to to join us. I appreciate it.

Ben Parr (02:49:39):
I just want to talk about AI all the time. And I'm gonna plug my subs now, ben par I talk about AI

Leo Laporte (02:49:48):
And it's free.

Ben Parr (02:49:49):
And it's free.

Leo Laporte (02:49:50):
Yeah. Every time I hear ck I go, oh, another subscription. But no, it's free. You should start charging for that eventually. But lots of good stuff. A really good thing to follow on CK the Social Analyst by Ben Parr and Octane ai. Are you gonna have a big reveal soon?

Ben Parr (02:50:09):
Big reveal, soon building cool AI things. Just follow me somewhere. I will put it in my newsletter. Do the newsletter, do the newsletter. Some very cool, there's some very cool AI things like legitimately cool new stuff. My co-founder matched, like, has been engineering some crazy stuff with open AI for a long time and some other new things. So neat. Yeah, I'm excited to actually talk about it at some point.

Leo Laporte (02:50:33):
At Ben Par on the Twitter. Don't forget his podcast. Business envy So nice to see you Ben. Thank you for being here with us today. We do Twitter every Sunday afternoon, 2:00 PM right after. Ask the Tech guys 2:00 PM Pacific, 5:00 PM Eastern, 2200 utc. I mentioned that cuz you can watch us live if you want. We'll put it out as a podcast. You can listen to your leisure, but if you wanna watch live, that's when we're on two to five thereabouts Eastern Time. The live stream is at tv slash live. That can point you to YouTube and other places. But start there. If you're watching live, you probably want to chat with the other viewers. Couple places to do that. Irc, irc That's open to all. Or if you're a Club Twit member, which I highly recommend, you can join us in the Discord. Discord is a great community. Look at Ooc in there promoting his t-shirt. Oh,

Owen JJ Stone (02:51:26):
Scroll, scroll up and look at these Afro.

Leo Laporte (02:51:29):
Oh, you put a picture in there. This is your daughter's

Owen JJ Stone (02:51:32):
Afro. I, I can't find my mine are on mine. She doesn't look at all like you. I gotta get mine on film <laugh>. No, no, no. Again, she's white. I told you how the internet works, but she's rolling. Oh wow. Look at that. Wow.

Leo Laporte (02:51:42):
That's beautiful. I love your daughter. Look at that. It

Owen JJ Stone (02:51:45):
Wow. Coolest at, look, look at that fro

Ben Parr (02:51:47):
That hairs amazing.

Leo Laporte (02:51:49):

Owen JJ Stone (02:51:49):
Kid is only fro bigger. Was my dad's from, my dad had a bigger fro than her. She tried to get as big as my dad and she, she couldn't, she couldn't top it. Does

Leo Laporte (02:51:56):
It start to, at a certain point, does it start to lose altitude?

Owen JJ Stone (02:52:02):
Oh yeah. Yeah. She's got like a, a a a a six hour window before it's floppy. <Laugh> got a six hour window.

Leo Laporte (02:52:10):
<Laugh>. I love it. There she's is Angela.

Owen JJ Stone (02:52:12):
That's, that's, that's towards the end of the six hour window right there. Ilop.

Leo Laporte (02:52:15):
Get a little flop. Yeah. Get a little flop to

Owen JJ Stone (02:52:17):
It. Yeah. There you go.

Leo Laporte (02:52:18):
All right. So that's the Discord. That's how much fun the Discord is. You also get ad free versions of all the shows, plus shows like we teased at HandsOn McIntosh with Mic Sergeant that we don't put out in public yet cuz they're, they're in the incubator, which is the club. We also have incubating Paul T's hands on windows. We have the Untitled Linux Show, which will probably always be incubation cuz Linux still just a small fraction of the market. We have the Gizz fizz, which is awesome every Wednesday. Dick de Barto does that. You get all that. Plus lots of events. Thanks to our community manager, aunt Pruitt who puts these together. Samal Sam will be on March 2nd for an Ama Stacy's book club is coming up. And inside Twit chat with one of our best editors, the guy who does those twit promos every week.

Victor Bog, not all of that. Seven bucks a month, $1 less than a blue check on Twitter. And if you wanna use phone SMS for authentication in the Discord, you go right ahead and do it. We will not charge you for that. <Laugh>. That's part of the deal. Twitter.Tv/Club twit. It makes a big difference to our bottom line. Times are a little bit tough in the podcast business probably will stay that way. My dream is to have the listeners support. It wouldn't take all of you just 5%. That's all I ask. Then the other 95 could still get it for free and listen at their leisure. If you want to get this show after the fact, twit TV is the website. There's a YouTube channel for all of the Twitch shows. Start at That'll have links to all of those. And of course, you can always subscribe in your favorite podcast player. That way you'll get it automatically as soon as it's ready for the world. Thank you all for being here. And now, as always, it's time to let Owen JJ Stone wrap up this incredible edition of this week in Tech. Owen, take it away.

Owen JJ Stone (02:54:13):
So, so a bunch of things. First of all, get Hank's essential salt. If you make steaks, it'll make so good. Like, if you suck and make a mistake, put that on the steak. I swear to Jim Christmas, your steak will taste better. Just do that. Start with that and then you'll branch out. Do you

Leo Laporte (02:54:29):
Have a favorite, a favorite salt Hank flavor that you really like?

Owen JJ Stone (02:54:33):
Oh, the truffle <laugh>. Just the truffle baby. Good trouble. Garlic. I feel luxurious when I use it. I feel luxurious Yep. When I use it. But that the new one is,

Leo Laporte (02:54:44):
I want you to try that. You know, maybe I'll send you some, I'll get to send you some.

Owen JJ Stone (02:54:47):
Yeah, I'll try, I'll try it next. But the, the essential salt though, like I said, it, it just saves, like if you suck, like I'm good, but it just made me better. Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:54:54):
You're gonna like this

Owen JJ Stone (02:54:54):
New one.

Leo Laporte (02:54:55):
Nashville Hot Salt. You're gonna like that.

Owen JJ Stone (02:54:59):

Leo Laporte (02:54:59):
For the holidays, pumpkin spice. Oh, it's sold out.

Owen JJ Stone (02:55:03):
Sold out. I like some right now. It's so good. So thank you for the plug. So secondly, yes, secondly there, there's so much AI stuff, there's too much AI stuff, but if you follow Ben and then you follow Dan, then you'll they'll, they'll filter out the trash for you. That's, that's what I'm doing. I sound smarter by following smart people. So just follow them and then you'll know what's worth looking into and caring about. That's the second thing. And the third thing, which is of their four, I am back to doing shows. I'm doing my 10 shows. I I'm doing Raising a Ninja, it's raising a Ninja. And doc Tales where I interview people are gonna be on Paton because I don't want the world attacking my daughter. But we're talking about serious issues. I think that's Snapchats and what smart kids are doing on the internet.

Yep. And it's one of the biggest things that people ask me about, like what I do with my daughter and how I've trained her to use the internet. So just, just follow me somewhere. Sign from the newsletter, you'll get it. But I'm doing, and we're doing movie reviews together. We're having so much fun. I'm doing stuff. But more importantly than that, text me. Text me if you're bored. Text me if you're happy. Text me if you're sad. I know that sometimes we're out here in this technological world and a lot of people are lonely. And I've gotten that from the emails that I get from people in the text messages. Believe it or not, I haven't sent out a text message about my podcast or shows in over a month. But I talk to people randomly when they say, go Birds. Or someone told me they were on dialysis and they were lonely and they just wanted somebody to talk to.

So I know that a lot of people out there listening just need somebody to check in on 'em, text me, tell me what's going on. I I will spend a good five, six minutes with you. I'm pre-retired. I got the time <laugh> and I know that somebody out there needs it. Okay. I know that you do. I'm not like Ben, I'm not, I'm not working too hard. I'm made enough money and I'm trying to coast until the kid graduates high school. So I'm pre-retired right now. I don't like working, working for suckers. I don't know. Not you. Not not you listening, but some people <laugh>. This is the humble brag, by the way. I made enough money. <Laugh>. I just, I just live. I'm not, don't worry about me. I didn't get a raise like Dan, so don't, I'm not buying drinks. So, and secondly, right now, I've said this so many times, the apps are free.

Start a podcast with your daughter, sister, son, uncle, uncle, cousin, aunt, grandmother. Yeah. And record conversations. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, one of my best friends in life that I started doing these shows with back in 2007, 2008 passed away. Oh, his oldest daughter was 15 at the time. Oh gosh. His son was three at the time. His son is now 10. And he asked me for the podcast and the shows. And I think that he's old enough to listen to the crazy stuff that we talk about. And for him to cry and call me and say, it's so amazing to see my dad's mannerisms and how much fun he was because losing him at three years old, he doesn't have the context that his older sister has of how cool his dad was. And you might not think that you're important or you're valuable, but guess what? There's a lot of dumb people with a lot of dumb podcasts. And you ain't got to share with nobody. But pick your phone, record something. Save something and have some fun in your family units that could go forward. I'll tell you what, my daughter's gonna be telling the tales of my luxurious lifestyle and the decades to come to my grandchildren, whether I'm here or not. And I think you should do it too. And if you go to my website and buy a t-shirt, you'll know why I say another twit is in the king. This

Leo Laporte (02:58:22):
Amazing doing the twi, doing the

Speaker 13 (02:58:27):
Twit. All doing the twit baby. Doing the twit. All right.

Owen JJ Stone (02:58:32):
Doing the twit. I made that Dove video and they sent me like three years worth of soap. And I thought, does this soap go bad? Like, does Dove soap go bad? Like, can I keep washing? Nope.

Leo Laporte (02:58:41):
Keep using that.

Owen JJ Stone (02:58:41):
How long can I

Leo Laporte (02:58:43):
Actually, some soaps a couple years later and it disappears. It's like it's going into the air, but I think Dove is pretty much tied to the ground. Well,

Owen JJ Stone (02:58:51):
I still got one left. It's like 13 years old. I still got one classic bottle left. It's in my closet. I've never used it.

Leo Laporte (02:58:56):
You you did that unbidden, right? You did a video with Dove. Oh yeah.

Owen JJ Stone (02:59:00):
Isn't everybody was doing it when Yeah, when everybody was doing the Old Spice thing. I'm like, I'm a sensitive man. I use Dove <laugh>. Oh man. I'm not an Old Spice.

Leo Laporte (02:59:08):
And as I remember, but you know, as I remember you were you were showing some skin.

Owen JJ Stone (02:59:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't wanna look that up. Don't worry about that. We got, there's children present now. It's, it's like the, oh God. Oh, you found it. Look at look. They see what's going on. What's, what are you doing? Who's that guy

Speaker 14 (02:59:24):

Owen JJ Stone (02:59:24):
Use old sweat. What? What is, who are we? I'm in a pink bathroom. Excuse me,

Speaker 14 (02:59:28):
Sailors. No one. I don't know one single lady.

Owen JJ Stone (02:59:31):
Trust you.

Speaker 14 (02:59:31):
Me. I know. Ladies, look at yourself. Now look at me now look at yourself now. Stay on me. You've got a six pack. I've got a cake. You drink alone. I bring the party. You're on a white towel. I'm in a black towel. What does that mean? It means I'm more of a man than you. Look at these arms. They're covering tattoos. I have 11. You have none more of a man than you. I can check off a thousand things on the list. Why am I in a pink bathroom? Because ladies love pink. And I love the ladies. Why is there love ladies my wall, because I'm a babies Ladies. Beautiful babies. Free installation.

Owen JJ Stone (02:59:59):
Beautiful babies back for you. Free installation.

Speaker 14 (03:00:03):
Kevin Rose, watch

Owen JJ Stone (03:00:04):

Leo Laporte (03:00:05):
For this. You got how many Dove bars?

Owen JJ Stone (03:00:09):
A lot. <Laugh>. It was a lot.

Leo Laporte (03:00:12):
Not the chocolate. I

Owen JJ Stone (03:00:13):
Bathed. So for,

Leo Laporte (03:00:14):
For years. Oh my God. Bathe

Owen JJ Stone (03:00:16):
Yeah. And bathe for

Leo Laporte (03:00:17):
Free. <Laugh>,

Owen JJ Stone (03:00:18):
I bathed for free. Uhoh,

Leo Laporte (03:00:20):
Uhoh. Aunt Mr. An is not happy. Mr. Aunt says you need some more pushups, dude.

Owen JJ Stone (03:00:26):
Hey, look, look what I'm saying is, look, I still get ladies looking like that. Okay. My personality works for me. Look, if I look like aunt, I have a whole problem. Never be married, couples divorced, and the whole nation, g

Leo Laporte (03:00:37):
It's good.

Owen JJ Stone (03:00:37):
Don't worry about that. Very here. I'm not here trying to do the best I can with what I got.


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