This Week in Tech 521

Leo Laporte: It’s time for TWiT: This Week in Tech! We’ll take a look at Windows 10, three days in. Is it a big hit, or a belly flop? A new button that can get you more toilet paper, and the end of drones as we know it. It’s all next, on TWiT!

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This is TWiT, This Week in Tech, episode 521, recorded Sunday, August 2, 2015.

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It's time for TWiT: This Week in Tech, the show where we cover the weekly tech news with the smartest journalists in the business, and we got a great panel for you. Mark Milian is here. It's always great to have you on, Mark.

Mark Milian: I'm looking forward to a good time.

Leo: Bloomberg business week. I'm sorry. That was mean. I thought I would kick it right off at the beginning. Mark likes to come with his buddy. Nate is here. Olivarez-Giles from the Wall Street Journal. Good to see you again, Nate.

Nathan Olivarez-Giles: Happy to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Leo: You've been on TNT and other shows. I see you all the time now. And Owen JJ Stone, martial artist, television star.

Owen JJ Stone: Somebody should super-impose: "will work for tech."

Leo: Will work for tech. What the hell is that? That is huge.

Owen: It's a touch tablet. Because you know Uncle Leo, I'm doing serious work for serious people.

Leo: Is that like a...

Owen: It's the cheap one. It's 13-inch.

Leo: You're also an artist.

Owen: Yes. Besides just looking good, I'm actually kind of smart.

Leo: Many talents. Do you have a shield tablet there? Because if you do, you better watch out, it might blow up and catch fire.

Owen: I think only 4 people in America have a Shield tablet.

Leo: They're cool!

Owen: The recall wasn't great.

Leo: No. Did they say how many they're going to have to recall? It's a fire hazard.

Owen: They sold four.

Leo: I know some people who bought these because this was a very fast tablet, designed for gaming primarily. A lot of people were singing its praises, but those sold between July 2014 and July 2015, which is now, might have a little problem. You should look for the battery section and see if it's BO1. If it is, you can use it. If it's YO1, you should arrange your replacement as soon as possible. Our public service announcement on behalf... I have the envidious shield Android TV and I love it.

Mark: That's the newer one, right? It's kind of like a game consul. They have a cloud gaming service, you can download consul games.

Leo: They have an on live game where it streams the games to the developers. I haven't played that. I should try it. I haven't played it.

Nathan: It's pretty good. It's not bad. If you like PlayStation 3 games, but they're fun, and there's not a lot of hiccups.

Leo: I have an X Box One right next to it. That's all I need. Do you know what else I have? A copy of Windows 10. I am fast. Windows X came out on Wednesday.

Mark: It looks nice. I like the UI.

Leo: I love it. They brought back the start menu. It does have some tiles on it, but you can customize it.

Mark: Ask me anything?

Leo: Ask Cortona.

Mark: They're using the Reddit tag line.

Leo: I never thought about that. I have to say; I think Microsoft finally got a version of Windows that is as good as Windows 7. Windows 8 was a little bit of a disappointment. This is pretty good. Now, they said 67 million people so far. 14 million in the first day did the upgrade, and that's limited only by Microsoft's bandwidth I guess. There are roughly 600 million people who could use this. This is the new Edge browser. It's not really ready yet. It doesn't support plugins. For that reason, Microsoft continues to include Internet Explorer.

Mark: And everyone will still use Chrome.

Leo: Immediately, what did I download? I downloaded Chrome.

Owen: You have infinite funds. Just work on it and get it ready when you launch something. Making somebody use something else in the meantime is going to make them forget about whatever new thing you're going to do.

Leo: It's an interesting question. When they first announced that they were going to release Windows 10 in 2015, they said Fall. They said later in the year, and then all of a sudden, contrary to everybody's expectations, they said July 29. I have a feeling that they still intend to finish it in the fall; do you know what I mean? Threshold 2, which is the big service pack that will still be out in the fall, Mary Joe Foley said this on our Windows Weekly show; it's probably really the final.

Nathan: There's some things that I'm kind of irritated by. There's no real compatibility between Office and Windows 10 itself that is any different than Windows 8 and Office. They leveraged all of their one drive Cloud system.

Leo: Apparently One drive is still troubling to Windows 10.

Nathan: It just seems as though Microsoft Windows team and the office team aren't really quite communicating the way they should. It's kind of a crappy user experience.

Leo: Microsoft did want to ship it with Skype built in. Still doesn't. You have to download a copy of Skype. I think the next version of Skype probably will. I already took the candy crush saga tile off of here. Good news, Candy Crush Saga is not downloaded, it just puts a tile up saying, "Do you want it?" It feels fast, it's snappy. It probably should be at least as fast, if not faster on any machine that can run Windows 7 or 8. I think it's beautiful, it looks good, and bringing back the start menu and getting rid of the charms bar does a lot towards making this a very usable Windows. Instead of the Charms bar, now they have an action center, which has customizable icons in the bottom so you can customize it to do the things you want.

Mark: How often do you find yourself with that machine actually touching it?

Leo: I'm touching it now. You even reached out to touch it.

Mark: It's a nice little gimmick to be able to touch it, but I've played around with the Chrome Book Pixel over the last year or so. They've got the Touch built in, but I almost never use it.

Nathan: I just hate fingerprints on my display.

Leo: That's one side effect, is it really does mush things up.

Owen: Have you played your X Box on it?

Leo: I haven't yet. Paul Thurrott was doing it while we did Windows Weekly. He said it works very well. He's playing Call of Duty. I said, come on. It's got to be late. He said no. I have a fast network. It's pretty snappy. Maybe there's a little hesitation.

Owen: Almost got me to buy X Box One so I could try it and play it for that reason.

Leo: I feel bad. I should have tried it. I feel like if you're going to play games, you should play them on your X Box One. If you own it, and you have to own an X Box One for this to work...

Owen: What if you're trying to go into another room and you're trying to play during dinner or while you're taking a bath or the garage? I don't know. There's some place in the house where you might not want to play on your big screen.

Leo: I guess that makes sense. It's more if you have a surface or some sort of tablet thing.

Owen: You've got that Invida thing...

Leo: So I'm in the bathtub, I've got my Surface Pro 3, and I can stream my game and continue to play in the bathtub. This is for a world that cannot play a game.

Mark: Which is just this world.

Leo: Our world. The world that we live in. We'll see how successful it is. It seems like it's gotten off to a pretty strong start. I haven't heard any show stoppers. Have you, Nathan?

Nathan: No, we actually loaded it at the Wall Street Journal. We loaded it on the laptop that was about 8 years old, and it actually felt quicker. It was great. I was really surprised.

Leo: Microsoft has successfully done that with the last 3 versions of Windows. 7, 8, and now 10 all were a little faster than the previous version, which is pretty impressive.

Owen: For an old computer like that, that's a feat though.

Leo: There were two big stories, and I suspect we're going to see a lot more. We're not done seeing these. Complaining about two things. One of wifi sense. Brian Krebs, who is a great security guy and very trustworthy in his blog, Krebs on security, I think got it wrong. Warning people that Windows 10 shares your Wifi with contacts. He did write this story July 15, which means he wasn't using the final version of Windows. Let's give it the rundown on Wifi. First of all, this is an interesting technology. The idea was to log you into captive portals, those hotspots that require you to see a start page in the login, and they were going to fill it with dumby information so it's automatically getting you on open access spots. But the other thing it does, is it shares your wifi password with friends, so when friends come over, in the past what you'd have to do if you wanted them on your wifi, we either say the password is... now they have your password, or if you want to be protective of it, you take their device and log them in.

Mark: Or in most people's homes, you get in and read it off the back of the router, like when we go behind the TV.

Leo: The idea of Wifi was that you could turn it on, and it would allow anyone who is in Skype or outlook or hotmail, but you have to have a Windows 10 device, would automatically get onto your Wifi network. They wouldn't get your password, they wouldn't store your password, but it would be a token that could be revoked by you later. What Brian got wrong is first of all; you have to turn it on. It is turned on by default by express settings, but then you have to go Network by network and say yes, share this network. You don't do that explicitly and it doesn't do anything. I think this is not an issue.

Nathan: I think it is maybe a little bit alarmist. It's still a little unclear. This is actually a feature that Dave viewed in Windows 8.1 and it was never popular. They re-fashioned it in 10. I think the passwords and all that stuff is just shared over encrypted networks. I don't know if it's a super big deal, but Microsoft is promising continual security updates, downloading in the background of your operating system. If there was any issue, this should be something that they've already addressed.

Leo: I don't think there is. We talked a little bit about this on Security Now. Steve Gibson wasn't sure. As I've played with it, if you have to opt in twice for this to happen...

Nathan: You have to opt in twice, plus it's all sent in over encrypted...

Leo: It's a token, it's secure. Now, if somebody comes up with an attack, I'll say I was wrong. Maybe that's what Brian is assuming is that there is some sort of fundamental security that might be taken advantage of.

Owen: Everything can get hacked first of all. Second of all, I don't know why you need that, besides being able to hop on really quick. Most people know their passwords. If you have to go to that one person's house, whatever. Why even give someone an opportunity to find a hole to drill in to get in through something else? Like we don't have enough holes already in things.

Leo: Ryan does update his blog post with a rebuttal from Ed Bott at ZD Net. I think Ed wrote a pretty good rebuttal on this. We've had Ed on many times. I think he's smart. I think Brian is smart. Brian points out properly that there are potential problems here. You have to opt in several times. You're asked several times. You want to do this? The other one that we're going to see a lot more of, and it's a little bit more insidious. It started with a Boy Genius report. It's about the Windows X Eula. Here's an example of the kind of headline we'll be seeing a lot of in the next few days. Windows X in spying on almost everything you do!

Nathan: As is Facebook, Google, your phone, the NSA...

Owen: Your mom. Everybody is spying on you.

Mark: There definitely is a tendency across the technology industry to do more crunching of data within the cloud. Your operating system traditionally in places you thought would be an off-line experience done locally on the machine, they're now off-loading a lot more of that to the Cloud. There was a big blow up when the newest version of Mac OS X came out because the spotlight search now sends all of your inputs to the Cloud, even if your intention is to search for documents on your machine.

Leo: I presume Siri, or Google Now, or Cortana that is sent to the server. I think that's the point. Here's where it's a little deceptive. Boy Genius report quotes a paragraph from Microsoft's Eula that does sound scary. Finally we will access disclose and preserve personal data, including your content, such as the content of your e-mails, other private communications or files in private folders when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to 1) comply with the applicable law, or to respond to valid legal process, or 2) protect our customers from spam, or 3) operate and maintain the security of our services, including to prevent or stop an attack on our systems or networks, and 4) (this is interesting, this comes from an actual case Microsoft had a problem with) protect the rights or property of Microsoft. They had a Microsoft employee who was leaking to the Press. They went into his e-mail and got in a lot of trouble for doing that. They said we won't do it again. We'll have a third party do it. In fact, they say this. We will not inspect a customer’s private content ourselves, but we may refer the matter to law enforcement. That's in regards to piracy. What's deceptive about reading this paragraph is you're reading it out of context. They're referring to One Drive. They're not referring to your personal harddrive. They're referring to Network stuff. So, I think...

Mark: That's completely standard for all types. DropBox.

Leo: If it's on the Internet, and they have access to it, they're required to give it to law enforcement. So, in a way, this is up front for Microsoft to point this out. At first when I read this, I even talked about this yesterday on the radio show, I'm kind of embarrassed because I said, "Oh my god, they can look at our hard drive." No. There's no evidence that they can look at your personal files. This is stuff that goes across the Internet. But you had a good point, Mark. Most stuff goes over the Internet.

Mark: Oh yeah. That's the direction that everything is going. Even Apple, which is almost made like a marketing stance out of respect your privacy in your day, even they're moving more toward sending more data to their cloud to give you a better profile and give you better answers. The trade-off is it's going to the Internet, which you're giving up some privacy in that process.

Nathan: I think the question is if it's really going to that company, if it's going online, if it's going to their cloud, I think the question should be: "What are they doing with it?" If you want Spotlight to search both the web and your computer locally, it's going to have to promote... if you want Cortana to do the exact same thing, if you want Google Now to do this, they have to know what those search terms are so they can find something online, on the web, or something locally on your laptop, on your phone, on your tablet, whatever it is. I don't really think, the question of are they doing it or not is a bit of a moot point. OK, they're doing it, what are they doing with that data once they get it? Apple has made that stance. Privacy is going to be number one. We're not going to exploit you.

Leo: The only way that you can do that as Apple is by not having access to it in any way. Because if you have access to it and you are presented with a legal subpoena or warrant, you're doing business in the United States. You have to give it to them. I know Twitter and others have said ultimately... they always have to give them what they want.

Mark: Twitter has gone to court to protect certain people, oftentimes they lose.

Leo: You always lose, because that's the law.

Nathan: Wouldn't it be nice... with all the prism stuff, all the NSA stuff, what we found it is almost every single one of these companies at some point was complying with the NSA in some respect, whether they like it or not, whether they fought or not. It would be nice if they just tapped us on the shoulder and said, "Hey Nate. The NSA wants to look at some of your stuff. This is what we're going to do..."

Leo: They're not allowed to do that. The National Security law says specifically that you can't tell anybody.

Nathan: But these are laws that are made by our lawmakers. These are laws made by our Congress.

Leo: We need to go to lawmakers, not Apple, not Google, not Microsoft. I think this is Microsoft properly saying, hey you should know.

Nathan: They're doing what they need to be doing, and they're doing as much as they can.

Leo: Law enforcement asks us we have to turn it over. You should know that.

Owen: If you don't want to get caught with something, don't put it on your device and don't put it on the Cloud.

Leo: Don't put it on the Cloud, is the key.

Owen: I don't understand how people just don't get this anymore. When people get hacked with things over and over again, you hear about celebrities. Even dumb people can see at some point somebody getting hacked. If it's something you care about, don't put it on a place where it can get access to online, and don't send it to a store online. Change it from "Murders last week" to "Puppy kittens" so if it comes through a search filter it doesn't get red flagged or something.

Leo: And if you want to preserve your privacy and if you want to put stuff on the Internet, there's only one way to do that in my opinion, which is to encrypt it before it comes out of your machine. Encryption is the solution. I can't send Owen a message, unless we've exchanged keys ahead of time. Actually, it doesn't have to be ahead of time. You have to have a mechanism for getting my key to read messages I send to you, visa versa.

Owen: Phone call, text message...

Leo: It's complicated.

Owen: Super complicated.

Nathan: There are companies that are trying to do things. BitTorrent has an application called Sync which is peer-to-peer file sharing with encryption on both ends and the exchange of keys. They're not overseeing the files; they just create the protocol so you can send stuff. That's a consumer friendly application.

Leo: It's open source and nobody knows how it works. You're trusting that BitTorrent... I do trust them, but I wish they would open source, or at least let somebody... they've never revealed how it works. There are things you can do to encrypt your data. I wouldn't use Microsoft's Bit Locker. Use an open source encryption program. You can protect yourself. I think the other thing though is tech companies have to make a strong effort not to have this information to share with people.

Nathan: So what does that mean? If they're providing services where we store our files and our information and we rely on them for both our personal lives and our work lives, what don't they store to give us better services so they can more quickly recognize what we're asking for and give it to us in a timely matter.

Mark: They should encrypt the messages. When they want to be able to analyze our information in order to do the type of things that Google can do but also some of the personalization stuff. They need to be able to look through the contents of your e-mail and your contacts...

Leo: As far as I'm concerned, have at it Google, because it's Google Now. I just understand that anything I give Google is available to anybody including the Government. Just don't give them stuff I don't want them to have. So you're right. In order to give you these services, they have to do things.

Nathan: In order to build the things that we're asking them to build that we're still using for free, largely, even though we complain about the privacy issues. It's a bit hypocritical for us to use this stuff and then go "I don't like the way that you aren't respecting my privacy" and you're complaining with the government. You should be frustrating law makers to be more transparent and to be more straightforward, and if you don't like the privacy compromises you're making, you shouldn't be using the things in the first place. It comes down to a better consumer understanding, and a lot of times we give up more than we realize we're giving away.

Leo: Maybe that's why these articles are important. Go ahead.

Owen: On the flipside, Jared from Subway also did just get busted for doing some weird stuff on Craig list.

Leo: Now let's not indict the poor guy...

Owen: Allegedly. But to the point, I'm just giving the other argument. What about the criminals who are hiding on the Internet and on Facebook... there are times where they do catch people doing things online, allegedly or not allegedly. If we create all these laws where no one can get information and there's bad people out and about, I'm just giving the other side of it.

Leo: I agree.

Owen: If something bad happens and you catch somebody, now it's thank you jebus. When you don't, there's shady stuff going on in the world.

Nathan: It goes both ways. As you brought up...

Leo: Owen played the Jared card.

Nathan: It just goes down to transparency. If a cop wants to go into my apartment, they have to go and get a warrant, and then when they knock on the door or knock down the door, they have to present that warrant. If I'm not home, I don't get to see the warrant, but if I do, right? They can still come into my apartment and rifle through my stuff, but I have that layer of protection.

Leo: And they went to a judge to get it and there's judicial oversight.

Nathan: We can have that for online too, and to say that we can't I think is a bit lazy and disingenuous. We don't have that now, and the people who are rifling through our stuff online don't have that extra layer to be there. If we want that as consumers, we have to take a stance. Right? These protections exist in some of our off-line worlds. If we want some of these things online, our lawmakers aren't going to be doing this stuff for us.

Owen: We need a same-time subpoena, where the cop shows up at my door and it shows up at Facebook's door. Look we're about to rifle through your stuff. I do understand that point. Figure out that same time thing. Look, you're going through his information? Call somebody or...

Nathan: If they're going through my stuff on Facebook, they just tell Facebook and not me. That's not cool to me. How do we change that? If that's the status quo, how do we change that.

Leo: Don't know.

Owen: We are not lawmakers. We don't have lawmakers anymore. They haven't made any good laws. They're slacking.

Leo: They're slackers big time. Taking all summers off. If you want to, you can go into the settings on Windows 10 and disable a lot of these. You've got to look at the privacy settings. It's kind of like Facebook. Same thing. Page after page. You can go in there. Unfortunately in the install process, they've got this nice button, it says settings. Whatever you want, Microsoft. I don't want to go through all of those. But you can go back after the fact and look at them. If you really want, you can read the 1200 word Eula and find out what it really means. A lot of these blogs are giving you excerpts that aren't completely the full story. We're going to take a break. We got Owen JJ Stone, Ohdoctah with us.

Owen: The sun is setting by my face.

Leo: That's pretty. I like that. That's what it looks like when you're on your way to Mars.

Owen: Somebody said the contrast makes me turn white.

Leo: Is this a new website? IQMZ? what is that?

Owen: It's my website. My long-standing website, and I got a new project I'm working on.

Leo: It stands for Inquiring Minds Media.

Owen: Yes sir. It's 2002.

Leo: 2002?

Owen: I've been on the Internet for a while!

Leo: Also with us from the Wall Street Journal, Nate Olivarez-Giles. He's full of guile. And from Bloomberg Business Week, our friend Mark Milian. Great to have all three of you. Are you over 30 yet?

Mark: Not yet.

Leo: He's a baby. You started at the LA Times when you were a teenager, right?

Mark: That was my first Internship while I was in college.

Nathan: He was old enough to drink.

Leo: So you weren't a teenager.

Mark: Maybe not legally.

Leo: My son used to play this song that starts out "Teen drinking is a very bad thing. Yo, but I got a fake ID though." Did you ever hear that? I don't know what the song is. Anyway. I don't know why I'd say you would know it. It was rap. You're a big rap fan, right?

Owen: I've heard it before yes. I can't remember who it is. It's going to bother me now for the next half hour.

Leo: Chat room will tell us within seconds.

Owen: Crowd sourcing.

Leo: Drinking is a very bad thing. I got a fake ID though. I got a real education from my son, driving him to school in high school. I learned all about rap. He would teach me. Old School, new school, lil Wayne. All that stuff.

Owen: If you have Apple Music, you can get it free. Go listen to Dicky. Little Dicky. He's a comedic rapper. He just kickstarted his album and got fully funded. Dropped his album on Friday. He's awesome. He's a comedian rapper. It's some weird funny stuff.

Leo: It's Tipsy and Jaqon.

Nathan: That's right. He's a largely irrelevant Saint Louis rapper.

Mark: With rap genius, we worked with him to analyze hip-hop music this week.

Leo: No kidding.

Mark: They helped us figure out who were some of the most popular apps in hip-hop songs. Twitter has about 850 mentions recently in popular hip-hop songs. Instagram is big, Uber is big.

Owen: Instagram is big, and Instagram you have to search the gram. Most of the time, rappers call it "the gram."

Leo: Instead of Instagram, they say the gram.

Nathan: Isn't that what you call it? That's what I call it.

Leo: I think Bacardi did so well because it rhymed with Party. Instagram would be smart if they would rhyme with something.

Owen: It's the gram.

Leo: Here's Beyonce. Every girl in here, get to look me up and down. All on Instagram, cake by the pound. That's good, I like that. Here's Jay Z. When I was talking Instagram last thing you wanted was your picture snapped. Kanye he instagrammed his watch like #madrichalert. Did he say the words Hashtag?

Mark: I think he does.

Owen: He does. Hashtag mad rich alert.

Leo: It scans. Jay Cole on Twitter. Can't get a follower. Wow.

Owen: You should have your own show reading rap lyrics.

Leo: I should. Hit me on my snip chat. Hit me on my next tell chirp.

Owen: Why would someone chirp. Are they birds?

Leo: Whale says...

Owen: Wale has an album out with Jerry Seinfeld.

Leo: I use an Uber to scoop me to SLS. What do you expect? A little groupie to see my crip?

Owen: Well you're reading it.

Leo: Enough. The hippy hoppy hip-hop to the just can't stop. Our show today, actually this is fun. Our show to you today brought to you by Whisper Sync for Voice. It's an innovation from Amazon and Audible. Amazon sells eBooks, Audible sells audio books. You can add narration for your Kindle eBooks. This is so cool. I'm reading on my tablet. I downloaded the gold finch in text and I downloaded the audio on my paper white, and as I'm reading I'm listening and it's highlighting the words. It's cool, because it can switch where you left off. If you're in a car listening to the book, and then you get home and you want to pick up your Kindle, you can pick up and read it on your Kindle. It knows where you left off. So you're always going to pick up right where you stopped reading. It's a great way to enjoy those books you've been meaning to read but you haven't had the time. I like Kindle, I like Audible. Together, it's awesome. You can learn how to add narration to your Kindle eBooks by visiting a special page we set up for you. You can do it right on Amazon when you buy the Kindle book, and you'll see. Add audio companion. It's usually less expensive to buy both than to buy each individually. You switch between listening and reading on the Kindle app, as well as on the Kindle tablet. There are now 60,000 Kindle books in popular titles with Whisper Sync audio built in. I like doing this, and I do it a lot now because I sometimes like to read it and sometimes I like to listen. For those who like to do both, whisper sync for voice, learn how to do it at Once I figured it out, I started doing it more often with a lot of books. It's a great way to go. We're talking tech, Mark Milian, Nathan Olivarez-Giles, Mr. Owen JJ Wilson. I think enough about Windows 10. We kind of covered it, right? We don’t' have to get obsessive about it. Do you think people should upgrade now? Do you think they should wait?

Nathan: It depends. If you're using Windows 8, upgrade today. Right now. Yesterday. If you're on Windows 7, you can wait a while. There's going to be some security bugs. There's going to be some patches. That big service pack is coming later.

Leo: You don't have to feel urgent. There's a free upgrade for the next year. Just to be clear, if you listen to Windows Weekly, Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley have really explained the ins and outs. Microsoft hasn't done a great job. Do be very clear, anybody using a legitimate authorized copy of Windows 7 or 8 can upgrade to the parallel version for free. You have a year.

Owen: That's amazing in itself.

Leo: That's amazing! It's a good deal.

Owen: I still got my old Windows disc with the $299 price tag. You had to spend it. For them, that's a nice moment. People still ask, "How much is the upgrade?" And I'm like, "It's free." Nothing is free from Microsoft.

Nathan: Is it amazing, or is it Microsoft capitulating to what is operating systems today? Apple upgrades are free, IOS upgrades are free, OSX upgrades are free, Windows 8 was a massive pile of a word I can't say right now. Why would they charge you for 10 when they just burnt a ton of bridges with 8? I feel like they had to give it away for free or 15 bucks or something. Charging 300 dollars after all of that?

Owen: They lost a long time of charging people when they shouldn't have. I'm just saying.

Nathan: I think you're right. They should have cut the prices a long time ago.

Owen: Yes.

Nathan: I don't know if they had much choice.

Leo: It's their business. That's how they make money is selling software.

Mark: It's been Microsoft's business as long as there's been a Microsoft.

Leo: This is part of a re-invention.

Mark: This is a new era for Windows. We talked to Terry Myerson who is the head of Windows in this week's Business Week, and he told us about how this is, he said nobody is working on Windows 11 right now. Here's Windows 10 and we're going to keep iterating on it constantly.

Leo: Is this the last version of Windows?

Mark: It could be.

Nathan: What does that even mean?

Owen: I don't understand that.

Nathan: They had Windows 8; they had Windows 8.1, now they have Windows 10. Who cares what they call it? They're going to be releasing updates every few months.

Mark: The methodology is that they're going to do it every few months, instead of holding all their features for two or three years.

Nathan: But this is the last version of Windows as a statement. I've heard Microsoft say that, I've heard a lot of tech reporters say that. I don't understand what that means. It sounds really great. It sounds cute. I don't get what it means. In fact, with HoloLens, which is going to run on Windows 10, that thing isn't supposed to come out until...

Leo: Next year.

Mark: There will be developer units by the end of the year.

Nathan: They have a five-year plan for it, but it runs on Windows 10. Technically, OS 10 has been on its tenth version for a long time. They're technically iterating on that too.

Leo: It's very clear that Yosemite is a big upgrade from Maverick.

Nathan: Do you think this time next year Microsoft isn't going to say, "Hey we have some new hot stuff for you, we have a big hot upgrade. We're going to give you 10.1." To say it's the last version of Windows 10 ever...

Owen: That's not how marketing works. You need to tell the common man something. You can't just tell me I got a new Sonata. It's the same car, but it's new. But its features are different. You got to name it something, you got to change it. It's going to happen. Regardless of what they say. They're going to change it to something because people need to hear new because the human brain now is accustomed to new.

Leo: It's the last version of Windows in one sense, which is the best operating system. It's much more like, I don't care what operating system I'm using, can I... maybe Office becomes more important. In fact, they're doing that on any operating system, including Android, iPad, maybe that's the solution. You don't ask what the operating system is on my car. What's the operating system on my Microwave. Technology has become an appliance. Although, people I think do know the difference between IOS and Android, don't they? That's a very clear distinction.

Nathan: Sometimes a contentious subject.

Mark: People certainly know the difference between Windows and Mac. I still know people who are sworn to Windows and they like the experience better. They're excited about Windows 10 and the start menu coming back.

Leo: Aren't we all just Chrome users when it comes down to it?

Owen: My favorite thing is when someone tells you about the new features that Apple has. The stuff Microsoft has been running for ten years and you hate Microsoft. Just stop.

Leo: You're right. That's human. Humans like to be on teams. As I was saying, you've got a year to get the free upgrade. That's it. You're an official owner of Windows 10 as if you've paid money for it. You'll get forced updates, by the way. You have to update it from now on. You can defer an update, but you can't defer it forever. Then I do believe after a year on July 29, 2016, they're going to start charging.

Nathan: They said that they will. I think it's going to be a ridiculous 300-dollar price tag.

Leo: Don't count on them not doing that. It's $110 for a home ten now. If you want to go buy a license. I had to buy a license. If you're on a Mac, you have to buy a license. I'm not upgrading from an earlier version of Windows, so I bought a license last night.

Nathan: Do you feel like it was worth it?

Owen: It's a tax write off. It's always worth it. America.

Leo: What am I going to do? It's America. I'm glad to support our friends in Redmond. They need the money. HoloLens, I thought they said it would come out this fall. Didn't they say that? Am I wrong?

Nathan: They did say that. Earlier this year they said they would have a new version before the New Year. Technically in a way they're still keeping up to that, it's just going to be for developers and not for consumers.

Leo: But it's within the next year, he said to the BBC. It doesn't even sound like this year.

Nathan: It might not be.

Leo: It sounds like within 2016.

Mark: Giving himself some wiggle room.

Leo: It feels like it's not quite done, maybe.

Nathan: Have you tried it? It's not done.

Leo: In fact, the field of view has strong.

Nathan: It's shrunk and basically the field of view is just the rectangle in front of you. If you see something in front of you, you're like, "Oh wow. Look at this cool digital image", and then you turn your head slightly left or right and it falls out of your peripheral vision. It just takes away from the whole experience.

Leo: There's a new thing called VR Neck. I just want to bring this up. We have text phone neck. It's like Nintendo thumb. I was talking yesterday on the new Screensavers; we were talking about this new sport drone racing, which is awesome. It's VR. You have to put on the VR glasses. You can't drone race looking at your drone. You have to be in the drone, in the driver's seat. The guy who runs it said that they have to train the drivers not to crane their necks as they're going around corners because they get hurt.

Nathan: Like when I play Mario Kart on my couch I have to lean as if it's going to do something. It's pointless.

Owen: When you drive a car, you don't do that.

Leo: Why do we do that? When I first started driving a car I remember driver training, which they don't do any more. The guy would hit me on the back of the head. Every time you look over your shoulder to see if the lane is clear, you pull the wheel. You're pulling into the lane. Stop it.

Nathan: I don't know if they're allowed to hit 16-year-old kids anymore.

Leo: No, times have changed. I am really old.

Owen: That's what's wrong with America.

Leo: Exactly. No driver's training and no corporal punishment.

Owen: We children haven't been hit enough.

Leo: OK. So HoloLens. I'm excited about VR.

Nathan: I'm big time excited about VR.

Leo: I kind of came around. I was more, saying AR was going to be the thing where you pose images on a real world. Now having used VR a little bit with a galaxy gear VR.

Mark: The cardboard?

Leo: No. You strap it on and you put your phone in it. It's from Samsung for Samsung. Oculus is using, I didn't know this, but the Note was engined for the Oculus. It's not like they ported it. It's actually how it works. Did you do the virtual press conference that One Plus did? How was that?

Nathan: It was cool.

Leo: So you put on cardboard and you're looking around.

Nathan: It only worked on Android. It was kind of neat. It's a little bit of a gimmick.

Leo: did you feel like you were there?

Nathan: Not quite. It feels like you're watching a 360-degree video. It doesn't quite feel like you're there, but it's cool. If nothing else, I like the idea that here's another company saying VR is a thing.

Leo: I feel like we're making such fast progress now that it's going to happen sooner rather than later.

Owen: What's fast progress?

Leo: Don't you feel like it's accelerating?

Owen: I feel like everybody is talking about it and jumping into the field. I don't feel like anything is useful or working yet.

Leo: Have you played with it? Have you used it?

Owen: I've only used it one time and it made me sick. That stuff has been fixed apparently.

Leo: No, it still makes people sick. In fact, on my Gear VR, when you download apps, they actually have a nausea rating. For most people, this is going to make you sick. I get a little queasy. What I find is I get a little more queasy if I'm moving around. If I'm sitting still... it's because my eyes are saying I'm moving and my body isn't, or vice versa. I think that's what causes it. When I'm sitting down and, like there's a cirque du soleil video and the performers are all around you and if you look behind you, they act as if they are suddenly performing for you. It's really cool. Nokia announced a new one called Ozo this week that is a ball camera. It's coming out in the fall. Gopro has one. Google Jump technology. The Ozo is interesting because it does a live stream. You can also save it and do an on-demand version after the fact. I'm told by people who have played with it that the audio is spectacular. They have microphones all over it. That's something that is going to be a big improvement. When you turn your head, now I can hear what is over here.

Mark: The jump is only horizontally; this has cameras pointing down and up.

Leo: That's what I mean. I feel like the technology is rapidly improving.

Owen: I'm not saying to that. I'm talking about there's so many people in the space now that you feel like it's going to be the next big thing, but everybody keeps pushing off when you're actually going to be able to use it for something. You keep telling me, we keep talking about this subject. I just want it to be in somebody's hands, I want to have it, I want to use it.

Leo: I have it.

Owen: Are you using it?

Leo: Yeah! It's great for adult videos.

Owen: You're using it for one purpose only. That's it.

Nathan: I'm sad that I touched this now.

Leo: It's 200 bucks, you have to have a Galaxy S6 or there's one for the Note 4.

Nathan: There's separate headsets for the phone.

Leo: You slide it in, it fits very well. They have controls, there's a back button, a touch button, you can hear. There's headphones that you can put on. I've used it a lot. No, not for adult stuff. But I've used it for, there's a limited amount of content. It's like when HD came out, but there's enough content. There are games, there's a really fun game where, I haven't played it yet. I've downloaded it. I'm trying to get people to play it with me. Where you, as the victim, you're dissembling a bomb. You don't have a manual. Your friends who are not wearing the helmet have the manual, but they can't see what you're seeing. So you say should I cut the red wire, and they're going let me look. There's a paper manual. That's fun! I think that's a great idea. I think we're starting to see some very interesting uses for this. It is immersive. It's not perfect yet. There's a screen door effect. I can see the pixels and everything.

Owen: Virtual tour city. You want to rent an apartment? You want to buy a house?

Nathan: I think that's going to be a big thing for real estate. For education, for tourism in general.

Leo: This guy who is doing the drone racing is a VR expert. He's got a PHD in VR and his company is doing VR tours of cities and stuff. Now, the GoPro is probably a few thousand bucks, the Ozo is around 5,000 bucks. This is relatively affordable. You can make these videos and you can put them on YouTube now. YouTube works with cardboard. If you have cardboard, which is inexpensive, you can do this. I feel like we're very close. When I say close, I mean the time frame is five years. Everybody will have one.

Mark: I think 5 years from now it will still be a pretty geeky thing. Maybe the next game consuls...

Nathan: A lot of the focus right now is on gaming. Oculus with their new rift headset is outstanding. Gamers are early adopters. We don't have a problem dropping 4 or 500 bucks on something that we don't need.

Mark: You're used to being in your living room doing something that you look stupid doing. If you're playing Call of Duty you have the headset in.

Nathan: We have zero problem with that. It's the perfect place to start. And, since some of these headsets are going to work with established game consuls, you have content there. You can port it over. It's kind of a shorter jump than what is broadcast news going to look like? What is future film going to look like?

Leo: I don't know if I want to watch a movie this way. I would definitely want to play a game this way. HTC says the Vive is going to be out this year. That's the partnership with Valve. They have already shown demos of games. It makes a lot of sense. If you're in a cockpit flying a starfighter, it makes a lot of sense. It's a natural use.

Owen: Games of tourism is where I see the big thing for this. Being able to see places and feel like you're interacting with it and not go there.

Leo: It would be very easy to make movies with this, by the way. You have a single camera that is recording all around you, and you just tell your actors you are on camera anywhere in this sphere, so perform! Act as if this is a real room. Almost like theatre, right? I can imagine watching a movie where I can look around. Imagine somebody starts talking and you look over here, they're having a fight. Wait a minute. The guy has a gone over here. That would be very exciting.

Owen: That's a long way away.

Leo: I don't know.

Nathan: It's not that long away. Oculus just premiered a film in Los Angeles this week. It's called "Henry." It's about a hedgehog. Depending on where you're looking and when you're looking, the cartoon character will react to what you're doing on screen. It's not just being the room..

Leo: Is it programmatic? It will change what happens? That's interesting.

Nathan: I didn't see it. I was in LA. I didn't get to go to the premier. It's going to be on Oculus when it comes out next spring.

Mark: It would be cool. You know, your favorite movie. You get a five-minute scene that you get to live in and look all around. I can't imagine watching a feature film and having to turn my head the entire time. Look, they're over there now.

Owen: That's my point. If someone is making a movie for it to show you the possibility, I just see that as a far-off thing.

Leo: It's soon. It's happening, it's going to be here.

Owen: I'm just ant-this lifestyle. I like the world. My eyes work. I'm a grumpy old man and I'm sorry. I just don't care.

Leo: I don't like 3D. I think it's a joke. This is not 3D. This is immersive, you're in the room with the actors as this is happening and you're looking around and going wow. Oh my god he's coming down. There's Tom Cruise on a wire. It's very exciting.

Mark: I think the dark horse in this field is magic Leap, which is already hiring people in Hollywood to work with movie producers and directors. They could do something cool. That's more augmented reality. That's a whole other layer to try to figure out for the film Industry.

Nathan: Hopefully, what will be so cool that will get us to spend whatever money it is to buy these headsets we haven't even thought of. Right now, a lot of the stuff we're talking about is what we know movies to be and imagining that to be a virtual reality headset. Do I want to wear that thing on my face for 2.5 hours, do I not? Hopefully there is something else.

Leo: Maybe it's a half hour. Maybe it won't be in a theatre. Maybe it will be Netflix doing it.

Nathan: But think about the Smartphone or the tablet, or the PC. Why did any of this stuff take off? It took off because it let you do something you couldn't do before.

Leo: You can't do this?

Nathan: I'm hoping. There's something still in virtual reality that's out there that we haven't even thought up yet.

Mark: I think it's the new Apple Beats virtual reality headset that Ohdoctah has right now.

Leo: Ohdoctah invented this. He's the first to use it.

Owen: I'm selling these bad boys for 6K right now. Just go to my website and buy...

Leo: Imagine this. Alexandria from our chatroom in Virginia. Daredevil. You're watching Daredevil from Netflix and you can watch it on a flat screen or you can put on the helmet, and now you're in that fight scene.

Mark: It will be cool for the fight scenes, for sure.

Leo: That's all Daredevil is. Fight scene; bandage them up, another fight scene. It's worse than UFC. At least the UFC is over quick.

Owen: You know what? That's where you might get me.

Leo: What if I could put you in the ring?

Owen: You put me in a ring. There you go, you just sold me. Put me in a ring with some classic fights where I'm Ali and I'm beating somebody up and I get to see somebody get knocked out from a first person perspective, or a Football or a basketball game where I'm on the court.

Leo: Make a punching machine where you're actually getting the punches. Feel like you're getting punched.

Owen: Give me that 4D experience. I want to smell burnt popcorn. I just love life. I got my eyes lazered. I can get glasses in front of my face so I could be more close to the world.

Leo: That's the point. You can't be in Vegas for the big fight, except you can! You can be right in the middle of it. Imagine sports when you're on the field. You're at Wimbledon and you're a line judge. That's what I'm talking about.

Owen: Leo, let me ask you a question. You just went to Germany, correct? I went to Germany. Would you prefer to do this to Germany, or would you want to go to Germany.

Leo: Of course, you would always prefer the live experience, but who has ever offered you to be sitting on the court at Wimbledon? There are some things you're not going to get to do, but we could put a little thing in the studio here and you could look around, you could see what John is doing. You could see what's happening.

Owen: Jason is sitting there with a bunch of buttons, there's people sitting on the chairs watching you...

Leo: This isn't the best example. All right. Super bowl! You could be on the 50-yard line!

Mark: It's gimmicky. Even on TV they've tried doing the field cam where you're behind the players. It's not a good way to watch sports. You've got the best angle pulled back.

Leo: It bothers me a lot. I'm watching Colin Capernick and I want to see him making his progressions, instead the director decides let's go see what the long safety is doing. No no wait. I want to watch. Wouldn't it be great if during a game you could look around like you do? If you go to a Football game, nobody chooses the shots for you at the game.

Owen: If you're watching games at or Network, they've got all the camera angles.

Leo: Now put it in your helmet, and you just look around!

Owen: I'm a grumpy old man.

Leo: No, I'm a grumpy old man. But there's something about this that captured my imagination.

Nathan: You're both grumpy old men, all right?

Owen: There's enough room for everybody.

Leo: Google is not giving up on glass? Please. Give up on Glass. I like new stuff, but some stuff is dumb some is not. Glass is dumb. Actually this makes sense. It's aimed at Industries like Healthcare manufacturing and energy where you might for instance, let's say you're new at surgery and you go is the hipbone connected to the thighbone? You have the little manual and you can look over your eyebrow and see.

Mark: If I were in the hospital bed, I would get up if I saw a doctor wearing Google glasses.

Leo: Wearing Google glass, get a new surgeon. That's the idea. You're on the factory floor and you can refer to a computer without actually bringing a screen to your face. That makes sense.

Mark: There are a lot of applications for glass that makes sense. Wearing it around the city and the bar doesn't make sense. I can even see in a warehousing situation where you're working at the Amazon fulfillment center and you just look around. Oh, toilet paper is that way. It could really save some time.

Nathan: Could we ever get to a point where the technology that glass is small enough and easy enough that it's just built into a regular pair of glasses that don't look so Cyborg like?

Leo: That's why I like augmented reality, right?

Nathan: That's what it is.

Leo: It's not. It's a little screen over your eyebrow. The idea is bring it down and make it your heads up display.

Nathan: Say you're in the grocery store. You're at Best Buy and you're looking at TVs in real life like everybody does and you look at the price on your phone. Instead it's on your glasses or your sunglasses.

Leo: That's why I liked HoloLens. I thought HoloLens was Google Glass done right. It's just a matter of time. They're going to put it in contact lenses, no one will know you're wearing it.

Nathan: Google is working on that too.

Mark: For diabetics. Right? Is that the application they're working with right now? They hired this guy that did a lot of research with contact lens.

Leo: They can tell what your blood pressure is. There's no pinprick because it's looking at your tears. Imagine the privacy implications. Google analyzing your tears. Is Google Plus dead?

Owen: I foreshadowed this two weeks ago on Twitter when I asked people if they remembered what Google Buzz was. You remember what it was.

Leo: I was big into Buzz, but I was the only one. Let's face it, Google has failed. Google Wave, Google Buzz, Orcut... It's not big any more. They pulled the plug. If it were that big, they might not have pulled the plug. Reader, we liked Reader, they pulled the plug on that. It's completely conceivable. The big change this week was they disconnected YouTube comments from Google Plus. That was a controversial move.

Owen: Thank God. I can't get back into my YouTube account right now because I was pre-Google Plus and went to switch it over, I got lost in the ether. I have to make a new YouTube account. I refuse because they owe me money from advertising. All this money is sitting there, but I can't get in there to get my money.

Leo: There’s always somebody like you, Owen. There’s always somebody like you.

Owen: Hey, and I’m an important somebody. If you’re out there and you work for them, call me because I want my check, ok? I need my money. You all got my money held hostage.

Leo: So Facebook wrote, some have said a very scathing article, but I think well researched. Seth Fiegerman.

Mark: Mashable.

Leo: Sorry, did I say Facebook? Mashable.

Mark: Facebook would write a scathing article about Google.

Leo: We’d expect that from Facebook. But really that was kind of the premise of Seth’s article which is that the whole point of Google+, Vic Gundotra went around Google until he could finally convince the executives that Facebook was going to eat their lunch unless they did a social network. And so Larry Page who had just become CEO said, “All right. We’re going to go all in on Google+. They did. They made it part – I mean one of the things that has changed, it used to be that if you had a Google account you had a Google+ account. That’s not going to be the case anymore. But I don’t think that’s necessarily going to hurt Google+, it just means those inflated numbers about how many people are using it will go away. Because that was really just people signing up to use Google. Anyway, it’s a good article. Mike Elgan, as one would expect because he loves Google+, of course our news director here at TWIT, wrote a counter piece I think in Computer World which he said, “No, no, it’s far from dead.” Unless the premise is Google+ didn’t beat Facebook. eWeek I guess. Ok. But of course Google+ didn’t beat Facebook. Nobody has beaten Facebook. Facebook as we know now from their quarterly results is unstoppable. They now own everything. It’s over. Which is a good reason to use Google+ if you ask me. I don’t mind that it’s not Facebook.

Mark: Or Ello.

Leo: Or Ello. Do you use Ello?

Mark: No.

Leo: I have an Ello account.

Owen: Having one and using it are two different things.

Mark: That’s true, that’s true.

Leo: It’s beautiful and ad-free. I don’t know if using a typewriter font makes it beautiful to be honest with you, but.

Mark: What about Is that still around?

Leo: We actually had an federated site for a while. The TWIT army. Edward Prudomo’s – enter Ello. Oh they have an app now.

Mark: They do. They’ve gone mobile.

Leo: They’ve gone mobile. That’s pretty exciting.

Owen: Changed the game.

Leo: Yea, that’s a game changer (laughing).

Nathan: I kind of feel like the question of whether or not Google+ as a destination is dead as far as a Facebook competitor is a little distracting from what I think is kind of an actual genuine success of the Google+ effort.

Leo: I agree.

Nathan: Which is just like tying all these products together. Getting you to agree to one user agreement. Sharing all of your information from silo products all into one. Letting Google have a better idea of who you are as a person. And then you know, Hangouts, which was already successful was rebranded for Google+. Now that’s more successful. Google+ Photos was really successful. And then now they spun that out.

Leo: It’s a shame because, yea…

Nathan: So Google+ as a destination never really caught on and I’ll point to that just like a lot of other folks in this echo chamber of tech journalism and say “That was a failure. You’re not Facebook. You know, ha, ha, ha. But there’s so many other things that Google got out of this that everyone’s ignoring by focusing on the fact that Google+ is not a destination that a lot of people go to. And I think it’s kind of missing the point a little bit.

Leo: And I still go there. In fact I like it that not a lot of people go there. The less cross-talk and Facebook-y it is, probably the happier I am. It’s a different—but it still has great tools.

Owen: It has great parts to it. Like everything Google does. They just throw spaghetti at the wall and half the pot sticks, or a quarter of the pot sticks and you get the gems out of the pot.

Leo: You know where I think they went wrong in this? I’m probably the only person in the world saying this. They never created a 3rd party API. You could read Google+ but you could never write to Google+. And I understand that they were probably reluctant. People used Buzz as kind of a dumping ground for their tweets and posts. But and maybe now is the time to do it. But create a write API so 3rd party developers can create Google+ apps, can use Google+ in new and innovative ways. That was great for Twitter. It allowed Twitter to explode. Obviously they turned it off, but it allowed Twitter to explode because people used it in interesting and new ways. They gave people a chance to use Twitter in ways that they wanted to, not necessarily they Twitter homepage. Maybe now’s the time for Google to create a write API for Google+. I think it’d be a great thing.

Owen: And if it was something else that was just open.

Leo: That’s it. Make it open.

Owen: When someone tweets me, like if somebody tweeted me right now, all my lights in my house flash. I can’t do that with Facebook or anything else besides Twitter.

Leo: You don’t get a lot of tweets, do you?

Owen: No, no, no, no.

Leo: If I did that I’d have an epileptic seizure.

Owen: It’s only on one light. It’s not all the lights.

Mark: Everybody tweet OhDoctah right now.

Owen: Don’t tweet me right now. I was making a point of make something that is open to where people can access it and search it and find it.

Leo: Well that’s what I’m saying.

Owen: I’m agreeing with you. I’m concurring with you.

Leo: Make it if this than that. Have an API. Have a rich ecosystem of stuff that interacts with Google+. Yes. I’m agreeing with you too, OhDoctah. I love you, man. Let me flash your light a little bit.

Owen: Two grumpy old men were bashing. We were on the wrong ships but now we’re sailing together. I’m with it.

Leo: There is the risk, and I understand why Google didn’t do it, that you just get a lot of people dumping content. That’s what happened to Buzz. You didn’t use Buzz, you just put everything into Buzz.

Owen: Even if you just made it selective. Like if you just allowed people and then filtered through the great ideas. Just do something. Try something else.

Nathan: I think that might be what they’re doing as part of this is they’ve talked about focusing on communities. Which there are like these smaller niche communities that love Google+ to talk about Star Wars or to talk about Android or whatever.

Leo: All those are though is replacing Google groups, right?

Nathan: Exactly, exactly. But Google+ that might be where that pivots into, right? So I mean Google+ isn’t necessarily dying, it might be broken up into many pieces with different names but it’s never really going to go away. I think in some way because there is now a social spine uniting all of Google’s services in a way that didn’t exist before. So they can get rid of the + and you might not feel like you’re using Google+ anymore. But they got what they wanted to get from it. And they still have a ton of users. And ok, maybe they aren’t Facebook. But I don’t know if that was ever—that might have been one goal, but I don’t think that was the end all, be all mission of Google+.

Leo: I think what Vic was probably telling Larry and the executives at Google was, Google has no social input to their search. Facebook—the kind of search Google does, spidering the net and making an index, is in the long run, doesn’t have much of a future I think. It’s not enough. People want some social inputs, they want—that’s what Google Now kind of did, is it started to take additional information. Facebook has those signals. It’s ironic because Facebook never really made a good search. They tried the graph and stuff but they never did a really good job.

Nathan: No. No, they miserably failed.

Leo: In fact Google didn’t need to worry. But I understand that 4 or 5 years ago there was a reasonable concern that, “Hey, maybe Facebook is going to become a better search because of all the things they know about their users.” All right, we’re going to move on. We can talk a little bit about the new phones. Do you care, the new phones that are coming? Very exciting news.

Nathan: Oh, yea.

Leo: Oh, yea. Oh, yea. We haven’t mentioned Apple. I think there’s nothing to say. But if you can come up with an Apple story we will. And then we’re going to talk a little bit about the robots and how they’re losing. This is good news for humans. Humans 1, Robots nothing. Actually Humans 2, Robots nothing. Our show today brought to you by actually a good thing robots could do for you. Invest your money. It’s called Wealthfront. It’s an automated investment service that is using very sophisticated algorithms to invest your money. Not only to make you more money but to also reduce your tax losses. Sophisticated strategy is like tax law harvesting and direct indexing. The point is to optimize your after tax returns. This is the kind of thing computers do really, really well. And because it’s being done in an automated fashion, Wealthfront is inexpensive. Traditional investment advisors – well, part of the problem is they often have their own ax to grind. They’re on commission and so forth. But even after that, if you eliminate that, they still charge you between 1 and 3% of the money you have under management. Plus hidden fees for transactions and changes. It could really add up. With Wealthfront, it’s one quarter of one percent a year and that’s it. 25 basis points. No commissions. No hidden fees. As an example, you’re investing say $30,000, that’s five bucks a month. And there are no additional charges. They are currently—they’ve grown 20 times in the last 2 years. Now managing over 2.4 billion dollars because it works so well. The very simple thing that you could do right now is go to and you’ll get the investment personalized investment portfolio. You answer some questions about your risk, your timeframe and all of that. And they will actually just say, “Hey, this is what we’ll do.” You can do it yourself if you want. You’ll see the customized allocation that they’ll recommend just for you. And just for you TWIT listeners. You don’t have to invest, although the minimum is now $500 which is awesome. So if you want to say, “Let me dip a toe in the pool just to see how you do.” You can start investing today at a minimum of $500. And if you sign up at—this is a nice little added bonus – they’ll manage the first $15,000 entirely free of charge. Not even the quarter of a percent per year. No charge for life. So that’s a pretty good start. You should be, you know it’s fine if you want to trade stocks and have some fun in the stock market but you’ve got to invest the bulk of your money for the long term. For your health, for your family’s financial health, for retirement. Wealthfront is really, really sweet. .25% one quarter of one percent per year and there’s no additional fees. 0 commissions. This is a great way to do it. And you don’t have to worry about it. You don’t have to pay attention. You’re done. to get your first $15,000 in investments absolutely free of charge for life. For compliance purposes I have to tell you Wealthfront Inc. is an SEC registered investment advisor. Brokerage services are offered through Wealthfront Brokerage Corporation. Member of FINRA and SICP. This is not a solicitation to buy or sell securities. Investing in securities involves risks and there is the possibility of losing money. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Please visit to read their full disclosure. Ok, so I got Google Fi in this really ugly Fi case.

Nathan: That case is terrible. I reviewed Fi for the Journal a couple of weeks ago, and used it actually up in Tahoe and San Francisco.

Leo: It’s fine, right? It’s T-Mobile or Sprint. I mean it’s good.

Nathan: I liked it a lot. The prices are great. But that case, that free case they give you is just…

Leo: I don’t have to use the case but I do have to use an Exit 6 which is ginormous.

Nathan: It is.

Leo: This phone is bigger than my head.

Nathan: But it’s also a beautiful phone. I mean like the display’s great, the build quality is awesome.

Leo: Good camera.

Nathan: It’s just gigantic.

Leo: But it’s 6”. There seems to be I think in the phone industry, the thinking that’s what people want. Because you look at the new Moto Xs for instance. They start at 5.7” They’re huge.

Nathan: But the bezel is even thinner, so actually in your hand—

Leo: It’s not as big looking.

Nathan: Yea it actually feels like a smaller phone despite being somewhat similar screen size.

Leo: I was a big Moto X fan the first 2 years. I loved it. I wasn’t crazy about the battery life. So I kind of gave it up for others.

Nathan: Or the camera.

Leo: The camera was terrible. Now, have you played with the new camera? 21 megapixels?

Nathan: I haven’t played with the Moto X. I had the Moto G for last week, and I did a review on it.

Leo: The G I bought.

Nathan: The G is great. The G is great.

Leo: I am so blown away. Cheap phone, starts at $180. For $250, for something like $250 you get the 16GB storage, 2GB RAM, that’s probably the only model you should consider.

Nathan: Yea, go up to the 220, the extra little bit of horsepower is great. And it’s only an extra $40. And it’s waterproof.

Leo: What did you think?

Nathan: You know, I really loved it. If you’re wanting to buy a phone off contract, I think this is the 1st phone you should consider. If you’re a student, if you just don’t want to, you know, spend $600 for an iPhone out of contract, this is a great place to start. The display in direct sunlight, I didn’t think was great. It got—

Leo: It’s LCD, right?

Nathan: Yea. But in direct sunlight it kind of, it kind of washed out. But the camera, which is a 13MP—

Leo: It’s the same that’s in the Nexus6.

Nathan: It’s based on the Nexus6 but I like the pictures I took with the MotoG better than with the Nexus6.

Leo: Even better.

Nathan: Yea.

Leo: Wow.

Nathan: It’s pretty solid.

Leo: And you can use Moto Maker. So I Moto made it. It’s kind of ugly. Ok, I admit it.

Nathan: Red and green. Why?

Leo: Lemon lime.

Nathan: Oh, lemon lime.

Leo: So it’s a cherry back, black front, lemon lime trim. I engraved it “Chief TWIT.” $225. Then I bought the flip shell because I thought what the heck. Let’s get a little cover for it.

Nathan: And it’s still less than half the price of an unlocked iPhone with all the same stuff.

Leo: And this is unlocked.

Nathan: Yea.

Leo: So I can use it, you know I can put a SIM in it. I’ll probably put a T-Mobile SIM in it, but I could put AT&T in it or any other GSM.

Owen: For the price it’s a solid, solid phone.

Leo: I think like most, I think like 90% of people should buy this phone.

Nathan: Bang for your buck you can’t do much better than that. It’s great. And you know, it’s waterproof and it kind of made me wish that every phone was waterproof.

Owen: I don’t know why every phone isn’t waterproof right now. That’s such a—

Mark: Samsung did it with the 5 and then went back with the 6.

Leo: This isn’t waterproof. It’s toilet proof. And that’s really what you want. This can survive half an hour as much as 3 feet under water. It’s toilet proof.

Nathan: It is toilet proof.

Leo: You’re not going to swim with this. You’re not going to get in the shower with it. It’s so when it falls out of your pocket into the urinal you don’t have to throw it away.

Owen: Or when you get in the pool and you’re swimming with your kids and you want to take pictures with it. People use it for that.

Leo: Oh, would you do that? Yea.

Owen: I did do that. Like that’s the whole point of the phone, right?

Leo: Use it as an underwater camera?

Nathan: Well you have to start, you have to start it before you go under water.

Owen: Yes.

Nathan: It really only works for video because once you’re under water it won’t register your finger taps anymore.

Owen: No.

Leo: You mean I could actually –

Mark: What about the side button?

Owen: You could use the side button.

Nathan: You know what? I didn’t try that in my testing which is kind of silly. I had that thing for a week and I…

Leo: So you took it in the pool?

Owen: Yea, I took it in the pool.

Nathan: No, not a pool but under a sink and actually my reivew’s up on WSJD and we had it under a faucet and then we dropped it into a pitcher of water and actually in that review video—

Leo: You call it “A perfect phone for clumsy cheapskates.”

Nathan: Yea, you got it. In that review video at the end there’s a scene where it was supposed to be like a punch line and like, “Oh, this is waterproof.” I’m like, “The iPhone.” And we covered a toilet in saran wrap and dropped an iPhone in there to actually like have it in—it broke the saran wrap and I lost an iPhone.

Leo: That’s all right I’ve done the same thing. I’ve put my iPhone in a glass of water.

Owen: I spent $100 on my waterproof. But I do, I have my 5 and I take that swimming with the kids and I take videos and pictures and stuff.

Leo: Wait a minute, you take an iPhone in the pool?

Nathan: Well he has, he spent money on a case.

Owen: I have the case and I spent $100 to get it waterproofed because people do do that. And if you—

Mark: Who makes that, Fisher Price?

Leo: (Laughing) That is the ugliest ass case I have ever seen.

Owen: Wow you don’t like red? What is wrong with you? First of all … I do not see a problem or something because I’ve got the red case. Don’t … look, it’s waterproof. You just lost a phone in a toilet. Don’t talk to me. Anyway, 6’ underwater, it plays music underwater—

Mark: I think my nephew has the toy lawn mower version of that.

Owen: You can listen to the music underwater and it echoes through the pool. It’s cool.

Nathan: Yea you know I hate putting cases on my phone. Like you’ll never ever see me walking around with a case—

Leo: Except for this Fi, Google Fi case.

Nathan: But that’s one of the things I like about the Moto G is that you don’t need a case. It’s just water proof and then you can just sort of swap out the back and stuff.

Leo: It’s so cheap that even if you broke it, you could get another one and still pay less than a Samsung Galaxy S6.

Nathan: Yep.

Leo: No actually I think—you know what really sold me? Battery life.

Nathan: You know I ended each night with about like 10-15% battery life.

Leo: I just want one phone, any phone, I don’t care, that can get through a day, I will be happy. And none of the flagship phones, today’s flagship phones can get through a day.

Nathan: Well the Moto X is promising like what 32 hours or something like that of battery life?

Leo: Really?

Mark: You’re using a 6 Plus right now. Is that pretty good?

Leo: Oh, I should take it back. No Android phone. iPhones do it right.

Mark: The 6 doesn’t. I use the 6 and it doesn’t—

Nathan: the 6 is like your average iPhone. You need to charge while you’re at work.

Leo: But the 6 Plus does.

Nathan: 6 Plus is great. I mean I could basically fall asleep, not charge my phone and still have 10% in the morning. Which is pretty crazy. But it’s also a massive phone. It’s what I’m using right now because I dropped my iPhone 6 in the toilet shooting that video.

Leo: I think Apple has an advantage too because they really lock it down, you know. There’s no real multi-tasking on an iPhone. It’s kind of pseudo multi-talking. But that’s what kills Android phones is all these apps waking up going, “Yea, I want some, give me some juice. Hey I want some juice.” And by the end of the day you’re drained dry.

Nathan: I don’t know if multi-tasking is the right word. Is that multi-tasking or is that things running in the background that you don’t know about that are taking your battery life? Because to me when I think multi-tasking I think like, “Ok, I have my desktop. I have multiple windows up. I’m doing multiple things at once.” You’re smart phone display, even at 6”, is only so big and if you’re looking at Twitter and You Tube on your phone at the same time, I mean just do you really need to do that?

Leo: No, no. I mean technically it’s wake locks. It’s the things that wake your phone up while it’s off to download more Twitter data and stuff or get more e-mail. And that’s really out of control. If Lollipop’s tried to fix that, they do seem to have improved it a bit. But iPhone, because Apple has such control, really does a better job.

Nathan: Maybe that’s why they lock it down so much, right? A better user experience.

Leo: I’ve come to the conclusion that’s why they don’t allow flash, that’s why they don’t do a lot of things because they know that those are all battery killers and they’ve really improved battery life as a result. And boy, Android phones are suffering as a result because none of the top of the line Android phones are worth anything. The last good battery life I had was the OnePlus1.

Nathan: The OnePlus1 was one of my favorite phones last year. I can’t wait for the OnePlus2.

Leo: Ok, let’s talk about that. You went to me for virtual reality.

Nathan: Well I did the virtual reality launch.

Mark: You went to your living room and put some cardboard on your face.

Leo: I’m working, honey. No, no, I’m working here.

Nathan: But I actually, OnePlus stopped by my office a week before launch.

Leo: So you’ve played with it.

Nathan: Yea, I got to see it. I got to use it. It looks like the camera is actually going to be better. It’s still a 13 mega pixel unit but instead of it being with a source by Sony I think this time it’s a different company and it looks like—

Leo: Oh, interesting.

Nathan: Yea. It looks like it will take a better picture. I don’t know if it’s going to be as good as–

Leo: Gosh, everybody uses Sony.

Nathan: A lot of folks do use Sony.

Leo: Apple uses Sony.

Nathan: Apple uses Sony amongst some other folks but yea, Sony is one of their suppliers, not exclusively. But it still has the same 5.5” display. It still has that sand stone feeling back.

Leo: But. Fast fingerprint reader. How’d you like the fingerprint reader?

Nathan: It was crazy fast.

Leo: People are raving about it.

Nathan: I sat down an iPhone right next to it and it was faster than an iPhone in unlocking every single time.

Leo: And more reliable.

Nathan: Well I don’t know about more reliable but you know in the hour I spent with it, it was quicker.

Leo: No NFC. Does that surprise you?

Nathan: It does considering it’s being used for mobile payments like crazy and they’re running a damn near stock version of Android on the OnePlus Two.

Leo: They could use Google Pay.

Nathan: So why wouldn’t you wand Android Pay? When you know, Google Pay when it relaunches as Android Pay later this year. Why wouldn’t you want to have that? I mean that being said, the phone does start at $329.

Leo: That’s one of the ways they save money. They also don’t do fast charging. They also don’t do wireless charging. I think we can live without that if the battery life’s good. They’ve increased the battery over 10% from last year. So you should get pretty good battery life on the OnePlus Two.

Nathan: Yea, it’s slightly thicker and it’s barely noticeable. I mean I had both handsets side by side and I could barely notice it. And I actually really, really applaud OnePlus for doing that because most every other phone company is going to try and sell you a thinner phone just for the sake of it being thinner, just so they can give you one more bragging point to your friends. And it’s just not necessary. I mean give us something slightly thicker and if we get better battery life, I’m all for it.

Leo: What do you think of the type C charging?

Nathan: I mean it’s where things are going. Is it a little bit ahead of its time? I don’t know—

Leo: It’s early, isn’t it?

Nathan: If you have one phone, you have that one cable in your bag.

Leo: Well I have a MacBook and Pixel both of which use C, so I have a the C accessories. I’m C ready.

Mark: I’ve got a C on my computer here.

Leo: I like it. Did you buy the $79 C dongle that allows you to do everything that a normal Mac does?

Mark: No, I just got, I think I got an off brand one.

Leo: You know Monoprice has some? I’ve got card readers. I’ve been able to find a lot of stuff. And the nice thing about C is it’s fast. I don’t know –

Nathan: It’s very fast.

Leo: -- if Lollipop or OnePlus will be able to take advantage of all the things C can do. They’re not doing the fast charging.

Nathan: No, they’re not doing the fast charging but they have the -- one of the things that I like is they have a USB-C to old school USB-A cable.

Leo: Oh, it comes with it?

Nathan: Yea. It comes with it.

Leo: That’s nice.

Nathan: It’s reversible. Which is the first time I’ve ever seen an old USB cable that’s reversible.

Leo: That’s pretty wild.

Nathan: And they’re going to sell these for like five bucks on their website. So let’s say you do have that new MacBook that you spent a lot of money on and instead of buying the $50, $80 whatever dollar Apple cable, OnePlus will sell you that cable for $5. Which is great.

Leo: One thing that worries me, I’ve heard from a lot of people who’ve had problems with their OnePlus1 and it’s hard to get support. Have they addressed that at all?

Nathan: Well yea. The first OnePlus1 was running on Cyanogen’s mod, which is great if you’re a hacker or a modifier.

Leo: I liked CM.

Nathan: And yea that’s awesome. But what they’re saying, what OnePlus is saying that now their version, they call it Oxygen OS—

Leo: I love Oxygen. I put it on my OnePlus One.

Nathan: Exactly.

Leo: It’s pure Android.

Nathan: It’s basically pure Android with a couple small tweaks. Like there’s something that you can basically drag your thumb down on any part of the display and it will pull down the notifications tray. So you don’t have to go all the way up.

Leo: That’s nice. That’s a nice tweak.

Nathan: Which is good. If it’s such a big display you’re going to not want to—so it’s small ergonomic stuff like that. And there are a few other changes but—

Leo: The V thing for turning on the light and knocking.

Nathan: Yep. You can like draw the flashlight on and it will turn on. So, it basically because it’s so close to stock Android, they’re saying their updates will get out there quicker.

Leo: Right.

Nathan: Because they’re pushing them through themselves.

Leo: But what about hardware support? Because they really-- I mean people—

Mark: It’s a little startup. It’s a Shenzhen, I think they’re in Shenzhen.

Nathan: They’re in Shenzhen. Yea.

Leo: So what are you going to do if it breaks? You have to buy a new one.

Nathan: You’re probably going to have to buy a new one or you’re going to have to mail it back to the company and, you know, how long is that going to take to get back to you?

Leo: On a wing and a prayer.

Nathan: You know it’s interesting though. I bought my Dad one of the first Nexus 7 tablets and I thought, “OK, it’s from Google, I bought it, it’s going to be legit.” It broke on him. We went to Asus to get it repaired. We went to Google Repair. No one wanted to fix it. We ended up just throwing it away and getting him an iPad mini, so.

Leo: It’s a shame these things are turning into disposable items, aren’t they? And I don’t think that’s a good thing.

Nathan: I absolutely hate the idea, or even the words, disposable tech, disposable gadget. It’s just not a good idea, not a good idea. But that’s the way we’re treating things which is unfortunate.

Leo: Well I bought two—

Owen: That’s the way we treat things that aren’t a iPad or a mini. Because I’ve still got my iPad mini 1 and it’s been rocking and rolling until the cows come home. So depends on what you buy and the quality of it. Some things are disposable. That’s the way life is. Some cars, you could have buy, one get on free. I wouldn’t buy one, but I’ll give you two of them for free. Because it’s disposable and it’s a piece of crap, so. You get what you buy.

Nathan: But I think it’s a fair question though, of as these things become lower priced. The OnePlus Two is genuinely really sort of flag-ship worthy phone from what I’ve seen. The OnePlus One I think was, you could, you know.

Leo: It was. Absolutely. Competitive with every other phone on the market.

Nathan: And that’s starts at $330. Which is a great, great price, right? So how much is that worth to you? You can look at Chrome Cast. That started at $35, right? And that’s part of why it’s so popular and why it’s sold so many.

Leo: Right.

Nathan: You can get an Apple TV for $80. It’s awesome because lower prices mean tech is more accessible, but most companies don’t have a recycling program set up where when you’re done with that gadget, it will be handled responsibly.

Leo: It’s going to be so sad in a thousand years when historians say, “Man, they practically buried this civilization in mobile computers. What was wrong with these people?”

Owen: You think there’s going to be a civilization in 1000 years? You’re living on a ticking time bomb, homey.

Leo: I tell you one thing, you’re not going to have any rare Earth materials.

Owen: I’m living in Montana right now. I’m buying land in Montana.

Leo: There’s not going to be any selenium left.

Owen: I’ve got land in Montana. So when it slides off into the ocean, I got that new beach front property, homey.

Leo: You’re going to be right in the—yea, you’re going to be perfect. You’re going to have coast on both sides.

Owen: I’m literally not joking. Buy land in Montana. I’m buying land in Montana. California’s going to roll into the sea next year.

Leo: Is it cheap right now, land in Montana?

Owen: Oh, man I’m about to go get me about a hundred acres. Just wait. Until it all slides off.

Leo: Do you get a mule with that?

Owen: Hey, there’s some woods with that. You know what I mean? Put up a little tent or something out there.

Leo: I would actually love to do that.

Owen: Fly home.

Leo: There’s some good fly fishing up there. Do you fly fish?

Owen: I might fly fish. I’m going to go out the flathead lake where, like where you can look, you can be in the center of the lake and see the bottom it’s so clear.

Leo: Did you get a brochure in the mail?

Owen: Look—

Nathan: Virtual reality. He’s been looking it on virtual reality.

Leo: You are a salesman going. Mr. Stone.

Mark: Let me sell you a time share.

Owen: You’re going to slide into the ocean. I’m sitting on beach front property.

Leo: In Montana they have a lake so clear you can see all the way to the bottom.

Owen: Flathead Lake, baby. Flathead Lake.

Leo: Always be closing (laughing). Let’s take a break. We’re having fun. Owen J.J. Stone is here. Nathan Olivarez-Giles from the Wall Street Journal and from Bloomberg Business Week the great Mark Milian. We are talking hi-tech. Did you miss anything this week on TWIT? There were a few things that happened. Let’s just take a look so that you, you know you feel like you’re all caught up.

Narrator: Previously on TWIT.

Leo: Speaking of old timers, when did you get that signed?

Adam from Salt Lake City: I got it on Amazon for 4 bucks.

Narrator: Windows Weekly.

Leo: It’s launch day.

Paul Thurrott: We’re not going to talk about Windows 10 again, are we?

Leo: Mary Jo had a review of Windows 10 called “Goodbye, Windows 8; hello, Windows 10.” You are sticking with it.

Mary Jo Foley: I’m all in. There’s still things not working the way they should. And for me one of the big ones is OneDrive. But we kind of knew that was going to be a mess.

Leo: (Laughing)

Narrator: The New Screen Savers

Leo: You call it FPV racing. First person view. What does that mean?

Scott Refsland: Well this one actually has a camera that’s in the front of the rig. So you actually pilot it as if you’re sitting in the aircraft itself.

Narrator: Know How

Fr. Robert Ballecer: We have been doing a little experiment the last couple of weeks, trying to find out how much bacteria is on your cell phone. Because we wanted to know if something like a PhoneSoap with its UV light actually kills all the bacteria on your phone. It works. These are totally clear. There’s nothing growing here. That’s pretty conclusive.

Narrator: TWIT. Technology isn’t always pretty. But we are.

Fr. Robert: By and far the worst is this.

Bryan Burnett: Which is it?

Fr. Robert: That’s the TriCaster.

Bryan: They’re crawling all over the board.

Leo: By the way, it’s not NewTek’s fault. When the TriCaster arrives it’s crystal clean. It’s beautiful. It’s pristine. But we have never, ever cleaned our TriCaster.

Jason: Howell: Yea, the TriCaster is basically my plate for lunch or dinner, whatever I happen to be eating during a show I just like slop it on the TriCaster and scoop it out.

Leo: You’ve got a burrito right there.

Jason: It kind of has its own seasoning.

Leo: We’re getting you some Clorox wipes.

Jason: Please. Help me.

Leo: I’ve got my Dash. You know what, I’m going to get a Dash for you. 5 bucks, you know the Amazon Dash?

Mark: Yea the buttons.

Leo: The buttons. If you’re a prime member. I got my button and one of the buttons is for Clorox Wipes. I should just put that right there on the Tricaster.

Nathan: You’ll probably be pushing that button all the time.

Owen: Why would you do that? Because basically it kind of kills your immune system. He’s working there every day because he can tolerate all the things that are going on in that board. Cleaning that board is just going to make him sick.

Leo: Our technical directors never get sick.

Owen: Don’t clean the board. Yea. Leo, come on, man.

Leo: They’re immune.

Owen: I’m a doctor.

Leo: I got the Dash. It’s the strangest thing. I thought it was an April Fool’s joke. Amazon talked about it at the end of March, right?

Mark: Yep.

Leo: Right before April fools. I thought, “Oh, this is a joke.” It’s push button ordering. So I got the toilet paper one. I figured that would be a good one to have right there on the john next to the commode. But it’s not instant. It takes two days.

Nathan: If you’re waiting until that moment to press that button, you’re doing it wrong. You’re doing it wrong.

Leo: The idea is you know when you need it. So you push the button. If you are a prime member and you’ve ordered that product before it will repeat your order automatically. If not it will send it to your app and it will put it in your cart and then you’re going to have to manually approve it. It has de-bounce, so if you’ve got a toddler that pushes it 100 times it still won’t make multiple orders. It only will let you repeat the order once the first order arrives. So you’re safe on that. I think it’s kind of cool I can’t believe that I am paying Amazon for the right to order more stuff from them.

Mark: How much are the buttons?

Leo: 5 bucks.

Owen: Now here’s the thing. What is wrong with the world that you can’t just use one-click. You know what? Don’t talk to me. I’m just…

Leo: It’s better than one-click.

Owen: All right. That’s why you don’t got no toilet paper in your bathroom. Because you’re buying one-clicks and then worried about the time that you got to click, you’re running around with no toilet paper on your butt for 4 days.

Mark: Yea you can even order toilet paper underwater in the bathtub. Because you’ve got that case. That waterproof case.

Owen: All day, every day. You can’t stop me from shining. Bluetooth doesn’t work underwater by the way.

Nathan: Well they kind of hit on the disposable tech theme. These buttons are $5, they have a wi-fi module in them, they have a small battery. What’s going to happen with all of these buttons when they stop working? You’re just going to throw them away, aren’t you?

Leo: I’m going to make a necklace out of them.

Owen: See? More disposable stuff. Stop buying buttons.

Nathan: All the toilet paper necklaces right here.

Leo: We live in a horrible, horrible society. You’re right. You’ve made me sad now.

Nathan: Sorry, didn’t mean to bum you out.

Owen: No more buttons.

Leo: You know what cheers me up? -- the place to make your next website. It’s so easy to use Squarespace. It’s so beautiful. All the sites are mobile responsive. We had a guy call the radio show. He had a t-shirt site. And it was on, it was on Shopify, and it wasn’t mobile responsive. And I looked at it on a mobile phone and all of the good stuff was like off the page. And I said, “Dude, go to Squarespace.” You know they’ve got better e-commerce. It’s very affordable. And here’s the deal. You can try it right now for 2 weeks and just see how it works for you. No charge, you don’t even give them a credit card number. You just play with it. Your website will look great on any size device. Every website comes with a really nice e-commerce engine. In fact if you get the pro version, I guess they call it the business plan, you get all sorts of nice features. You get ship station, makes it easy to ship stuff. You get calculators that will calculate taxes. Really helps you. It’s a great system. Very reliable, too. Squarespace is both the software and the hosting. So for as little as $8 a month you get a great webite that will never go down. You design in the way that you want it to look. Designs are beautiful, they’re powerful, they’re robust. And right now when you get a business or commerce system plan, they’re offering $100 in AdWords credits. So it’s free to try. No credit card needed. If you decide to buy please use the promo code TWIT. That will get you 10% off your first purchase. And you’ll get $100 in AdWords credit for business or commerce customers. I mean this sounds like a deal too good to pass up. Start your free trial right now. No credit card needed. Click that get started button and you know for the t-shirt guy this is a great solution. The main thing about all of this is you want the people who are using your site to be happy, to have a great experience. And they will. Don’t forget to use the offer code TWIT when you buy for 10% off. We’re talking the week’s tech news. You did mention Apple. Let me see real quickly I think there was, there’s some Apple stories. There was a rumor that the Apple TV will be coming out in the fall with the iPhone announcement. I don’t know if we should give these any credit at all. But, app store on the Apple TV, STK Siri support.

Mark: Well, John Paczkowski, he’s legit.

Leo: He’s really good. Went to BuzzFeed, that kind of took away some of his—

Mark: Some of his credibility?

Leo: Credibility.

Mark: Well the only thing about this, and I don’t discount that Apple is planning to release the product in September, but I feel like this, they’ve been trying to do that for like 2 years now.

Leo: Well I think that that’s what’s going on. That’s the issue is that they haven’t been able to make the deals, right? They probably have the hardware ready.

Nathan: It feels like every time that there’s an Apple announcement, we here the rumors of, “Oh, this is going to be the one.” And I think a lot of legit journalists have said, “Ok, this is going to be the time when we see the new Apple TV.” So I think while John’s a good reporter, we can take this with a little bit of a grain of salt saying, “Ok, it could get delayed. Maybe the deal’s aren’t going to be done.”

Mark: Right, not because John’s sources are bad, but because Apple is just not been able to deliver this product.

Nathan: Exactly.

Mark: And it seems like they really want it to do it alongside the new subscription internet like TV service with live TV.

Owen: If I was a media company I would not be trusting Apple either.

Leo: I think that’s the problem.

Owen: Apple flipped the music industry over on its head and now they’re getting flipped back over on their back and you know, just the fact of when the iPad first came out and how many companies lost out because they didn’t have their own streaming app for their shows and things like that, and Apple’s trying to sell episodes. And they’re like wait, we don’t want to sell to them, we want our own, just come to be and buy. So they started actually figuring out the fact that we can’t just give you this deal because we need to make our own money. If we can make our own money using you without having to go through you, let’s try that first. And Apple’s like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no.” Just give us a cut and everybody makes money, baby. You and me, everybody. And they’re not falling for it this time. So good luck with that, Apple.

Leo: You know the Apple TV though is really out of date. I don’t use it anymore. I very rarely use it because it’s just, the interface is clunky, it doesn’t, it’s time—

Nathan: What are you using instead, a Roku now or Android TV?

Leo: I have Roku and Android TV and I have NVidia Shield. Frankly I use my Xbox One as much as I use anything.

Owen: You love that Xbox.

Leo: I love my Xbox One. It has a great media center. It has all the apps. It has Netflix, Amazon, Hulu. The only thing it doesn’t have is the only thing that Apple has exclusively which is iTunes.

Nathan: Which is still a big, it’s still like the largest media store online for music and movies and TV.

Leo: But they’re selling the same TV shows and movies as everybody else.

Nathan: Still, it’s where most people get their stuff.

Owen: It’s also one place where it’s safe, per se. You know the same thing that people say all the time, “Why should I buy something through Verizon? What if I move somewhere and Verizon isn’t there and I own all these movies on Verizon.”

Leo: That’s why I buy through Amazon.

Owen: Again that’s why people buy stuff through Apple. I got all Apple TVs in my house and I use it because—

Leo: The Apple you can only use in the Apple ecosystem and that’s always going to be the case. And that I find very limiting. I feel like, the reason I use Amazon is because I know I’ll be able to buy, to watch it on a variety of devices. Not the Apple TV but everything else.

Nathan: Just throwing this out there. Apple Music is going to come out for Android, right? It’s going to be one of the rare things that Apple’s making for something else.

Leo: Yea, what’s that going to be like.

Mark: The first app they’re making for Android outside of the migrate your data from Android.

Nathan: So if they’re showing a little bit of loosening there. If they make these deals to have a streaming TV service, why would we think that they wouldn’t have that on Android at the very least? And you know, technically Apple Music is going to be on Windows too because of iTunes running on Windows 10. Not Windows Phone but Windows 10. So, I mean to me, if they sign this deal up and they actually have a competent TV streaming service, I mean that would be an alternative to all of the apps from those networks like HBOGo or you know, Netflix, Hulu, whatever. I think they’re going to have it on Android at the very least. I think they’re going to have it somewhere else.

Leo: Oh, that’s very intriguing. Hmm.

Nathan: I mean I could be wrong.

Mark: I would like to see that.

Leo: Put it on that toxic hell stew? Really?

Owen: Who’s going to –

Nathan: I don’t know if they’ll put it on Amazon Prime because Amazon locks down just as much stuff as Apple does but.

Owen: I just don’t see Apple getting that deal especially right now when you look at Xfinity TV Go or Comcast Go and they show you live TV, HBO GO, all those things that comes on their channel. That’s why Apple is having such a problem. They’re like, “Look, bro, why are we going to give you this money when we’re already running our own ship over here? We’re not trying to parse meals with you and give you any more free food.”

Mark: I mean it’s happening. They’re not quite there yet but the cable industry is changing very fast and you know, Showtime has there over the top app now you can get without a cable subscription, HBO Now is available. I mean I think really once Disney takes ESPN into this territory it’s going to be like the flood gates are going to be open from there. Because everybody’s waiting for ESPN.

Leo: And Apple and Disney are very tight, right?

Nathan: Very, very tight. Very, very tight. I don’t think Apple’s trying to make a deal with Comcast. I don’t think Apple is trying to make a deal with Time Warner. They’re trying to make a deal with the networks directly, right?

Leo: And even the local stations directly.

Nathan: And maybe even them. So just like Mark said, it’s about pulling apart what’s the cable bundle is, right? So now they’re trying to reassemble that.

Leo: Yea but if you’re the cable bundle, you’re scared—

Nathan: You should be.

Leo: Because you were in the bundle, you’re worried about Comcast getting pissed or falling apart. I mean you’re making a big transition that you might not be ready to make.

Owen: And that’s why I’m bringing up the cable companies because they have a lot more equity and money and it’s where they’ll make the deals sweeter for those people not to go to Apple. That’s why I’m saying there might be conflicts going on behind the scenes with that. Because they don’t want to give up that market. Not so much the individual channels but they’re saying like, “Look, if you just keep it exclusively with us, we can make this money. Don’t go to Apple. Apple’s going to take all your money.” Like, I don’t know. Apple just seems to have a problem getting it done. So we’ll see what happens.

Leo: Let’s talk Black Hat and DEF CON, the big security conferences are in Vegas this weekend. We sent a priest down there. I’m hoping he can do something about it. Fr. Robert Ballecer will be headlining our coverage. He goes every year. We talked a little bit about it on the New Screen Savers yesterday. What happens is the week before, the weeks before, a lot of security researchers reveal, almost for publicity purposes, the stuff they’re going to talk about at the conferences. That’s why you’ve seen now 3, not 1, not 2, but 3 auto hacks. There’s the hack we saw on Wired of the U-Connect in the Jeep.

Mark: Yea Jeep. That was a big deal.

Leo: Big deal.

Mark: Recalls. Recall’s big.

Leo: Cost Jeep Chrysler a lot of money. 1.4 million cars?

Nathan: And they knew about it for months before that article came out too.

Leo: That’s a little frustrating.

Nathan: Which is the thing, right? I mean, come on guys.

Mark: And I think they initially said, “It’s not a huge problem. We don’t need to recall.”

Nathan: Yea they did. And then they recalled hundreds of thousands of vehicles.

Leo: Well it seems to be a bigger problem. Maybe just a publicity problem. Maybe it isn’t a huge problem. I don’t know.

Owen: That’s a company standard. Toyota had that, a lot of car companies do that. Where they know that things are wrong with the cars but they don’t want to recall them until something really bad happens.

Leo: It’s the universal standard. Nobody fixes anything anymore unless they’re humiliated in public.

Owen: Unless they have to. Yes.

Mark: It reminds me of that scene from Fight Club when he’s on the plane. The character works for a car company doing, evaluating crashes and then figuring out whether paying the settlements will cost more than actually recalling all the vehicles.

Owen: Yes. That’s someone’s real job. That’s how things work.

Leo: That’s genuine. Yes. But it’s not just cars. It’s everybody. I mean Apple doesn’t fix a flaw until someone reveals it. How about this Stagefright? Now actually the problem Google has is that they can’t fix it at this point because there’s so many phones out of their control. Stagefright according to – and this is another one I’m sure we’ll learn more about it at Black Hat or maybe DEF CON—Stagefright is a vulnerability in the media playback engine on almost all Android phones that means a carefully crafted MMS message could either at best crash the phone, at worst allow a bad guy to take over your phone silently and without your knowledge. Google has fixed, of course, internal code branches. They’ve got a fix on their own phones, and I’m sure they’ve pushed out a fix by now. But they’re reliant on the manufacturers and the carriers to fix all of those hundreds of millions of devices and you got to think there are a lot of devices that will never be fixed.

Nathan: What’s kind of fascinating to me is that this really affects Android Phones running Jellybean and earlier, right? So if you have—

Leo: Up to 2.2

Nathan: Yea. So if you have a, I mean this year’s, right now, today, your phone should be on Lollipop. Last year KitKat was the big release of Android. But the problem with what Google has to put up with, every single phone, you know, your Samsung Galaxy isn’t going to get that new software update for 9 months later because—

Leo: And there’s nothing Google can do about it.

Nathan: Well, that’s what drives me nuts. It’s not what Google can do about it, it’s what Samsung, it’s what Motorola, it’s what Sony, it’s what HTC, it’s what Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, Spring, all the carriers can do because they get Android from Google. They want to skin it. Then they go back and forth between each other, the handset manufacturers and the carriers, and then they add on their bloatware, and then they have to—and so by the time it comes to you. And so it’s like I’m not even really mad at Google about this. I’m mad at the carriers and the hardware manufactures for skinning and bloatware and just taking so long to get the software update to us.

Leo: One thing that Google has done and unfortunately it doesn’t help you here, but they’ve done quite a bit, is moving stuff out of the system and into apps. So that they can push updates through the Play Store. They have control over that.

Mark: That’s helped a lot.

Leo: In fact you’ll see a lot of Play, you know, Android services now in the App Store, and you’ll get updated through the app store. That’s why. Because they know they’re not going to get updates on Gingerbread phones sold by HTC in 2011. It’s just not going to happen.

Nathan: It’s a smart move on their part.

Leo: Yea. But be aware, and we’ll learn more of-- the proof of concept code had not been distributed, but I think it will be distributed this week at DEF CON. There’s a researcher who says he can hack GM’s OnStar app, open the vehicle and start the engine. Again, we’ll get a demo this week.

Mark: Are people still using OnStar?

Leo: (Laughing) it doesn’t matter. If it’s in the car, they can take advantage of it.

Mark: I guess you can disconnect it. Wasn’t that the thing, where you could like push a button and it calls the police?

Leo: Yea. Or you push a button and say, “Where the hell am I?”

Owen: It does a lot of stuff. I use the Hyundai BlueLink which is the same version of it. And it’s actually kind of nice because it’s useful. If you want to talk to a person—

Leo: It’s like having a butler.

Owen: Yea, if I get in an accident, they call me, they see if I want an ambulance come out to me. Or they do all kinds of stuff with it. So, yes, people still use it.

Mark: So it’s kind of like AAA?

Nathan: It’s kind of like that and a concierge built into your car.

Owen: It’s on demand AAA.

Nathan: It’s really very popular.

Owen: What if I got in a car accident and my phone slides to the back on the floor and I’m pinned to the wheel and I can’t get out? But the phone calls me on the Bluetooth and says, “Hey, do you need help?” And I say, “Yes.” Like, it’s a useful thing. It’s still very popular. I mean I’m paying $200 a year for the service. It does a whole bunch of other stuff too like it gives me updates on my phone, I mean it tells me where my car is. I can geo-tag my car. I can limit the speed in a geo fence. So if I go travel to LA and my buddy’s driving my car, I can say, “Alert me if he drives over 55 MPH or if he leaves Gloucester County or wherever. And it will ping me and do all kinds of stuff. So, it comes with a whole bunch of features.

Nathan: All right, I’m sold.

Owen: There you go.

Leo: The hacker, Sammy Kamkar, says the problem is the mobile app. If you don’t install the mobile app you’ll be all right. Because he hacks the mobile app and then is able to use that to hack OnStar. But we’ll get more details at DEF CON. To that and a whole lot more because if there’s one thing we have learned is, as long as stuff has a chip in it, it will be hacked eventually.

Owen: Nothing’s safe.

Leo: By somebody. Wow. GM of course says it’s preparing an update to the app that would address the vulnerability. It’s days away. Again, don’t do anything until you’re humiliated in public, then get going. Facebook results. Wow. Facebook in quarter 2, $4.04 billion dollars in revenue. User growth only 3.47%. That’s a little slower. But they are going to hit 1.49 billion monthly active users. You know, could they have just gotten an extra, what is it, 10,000, just to put them over to 1.5? I would have made it—oh, it’s a hundred. Oh, it’s a million? What is it? I don’t even know anymore. At those numbers I can’t calculate it.

Mark: 10 million.

Leo: 10 million. Oh, well that’s harder.

Mark: That’s a lot of people.

Leo: That’s a lot of people. Although they are about to turn on where? Somewhere soon that could be that 10 million right there.

Nathan: Are you talking about with those drones over Africa?

Leo: They’ve got those drones over Africa, but where is it that they’re—

Mark: Right. They did a deal with a carrier somewhere in eastern Asia or…

Leo: South America? Oh, yea whatever. Soon. 1.49 billion people on Facebook every month. 800 million people on WhatsApp, which is owned by Facebook, every month. 700 million people on messenger. 300 million on Instagram. That’s not growing.

Nathan: It’s not. And I think Twitter has about the same amount of users, right?

Leo: Twitter’s finally caught up.

Nathan: Yea.

Leo: 1.5 billion in searches daily. We were talking about that. But still not a competitor I think to Google on that.

Nathan: But I would love to know what they mean by searches. Is it like searching for your mom’s name? Is it searching—because you’re not going to Facebook to search for—

Leo: Car dealers. What’s the best deal on a Hyundai? No you’re not going to do that.

Mark: I think most of that is just searching your friends’ names. That’s how I use Facebook at least.

Leo: How many of my friends are caught wearing a dress in public? That kind of thing.

Mark: The market didn’t like this quarter though.

Leo: Isn’t that funny? Look at Apple.

Mark: There was something in their numbers—

Leo: Record quarter and the market punished them.

Mark: Apple was their forecast. They—

Leo: In this case Facebook beat. So why did they punish them?

Mark: The market didn’t like the spending. They’re spending a lot of money on some of these projects and on hiring.

Leo: They say a billion people now have access to the internet through Not a billion people using it, but that’s a billion people who have access.

Nathan: People that are offered access.

Leo: Offered access. Hey, that’s great though. There are some complaints about internet. Org. It’s really Facebook. 850 million people using Groups on Facebook. I didn’t even know there was such a thing. 450 million people using Events on Facebook. 40 million small business pages. Let’s see if I can find the number on—

Owen: I just want to know who’s checking up on these numbers. Like, the other day, they have the sponsored ads now. So Wal-Mart is one of the ads. And they have 200,000 likes. But they only have 100,000 people following them. So I’m like—

Leo: How did that happen, right?

Owen: Who are all of these likes? Like wait, you know, and who’s liking Wal-Mart like that people aren’t even following to see-- ok, I got it.

Mark: I think a lot of people just compulsively click the like button on everything they see.

Leo: You learn not to do that quick enough.

Nathan: And then there’s also as has been reported multiple times in the last few years, click farms, you know, and a lot of people making money off of that so. Folks who aren’t even real people clicking through and liking and all that.

Leo: You work for the Wall Street Journal. You can sort of, I mean these are legal disclosures, quarterly result disclosures. They can’t lie, can they?

Nathan: They can’t lie but they can also not give you a complete picture, right? So when they say there are 450 million people using Facebook Groups, what does that mean? They aren’t saying how many—is that per month? Is that per year? Is that total in the history?

Leo: Oh yea they left that part out didn’t they.

Owen: Yea.

Nathan: So they can’t give false information but they can give you not the entire story which is what a lot of companies do, right?

Owen: It can be manipulated. Yea, it can be manipulated.

Leo: Twitter reported 316 million monthly active users. That’s pretty good. They had some decent growth. The stock went up because of that. Not that the stock market matters to me.

Mark: But then it went back down after Jack Dorsey started talking.

Leo: Apparently Jack Dorsey is going to be CEO because they just can’t find anybody else. Even though he said, and the Twitter board has said, “You know what, you’ve got to have somebody who is full time CEO.”

Mark: Especially with Square on its way going public pretty soon. They filed confidentially to go public.

Nathan: I don’t think Jack Dorsey wants to be CEO. I think a lot of people want him to be CEO.

Leo: Oh, you don’t think he wants it?

Nathan: No. I think, like Mark just pointed out, Square is about to go public. The board at Twitter just said, “We don’t want to have a CEO who is part time.” I mean, and come on. I don’t think that that board didn’t talk to Jack before that announcement. I don’t think—

Leo: No, that board is Ev, and Dick. Yea, it’s all of Jack’s--

Nathan: It’s his buddies. So I think if anything that was something to telegraph to the wider world. “Hey, Jack’s not going to be the guy.” But instead, a lot of folks saw it as “Oh, are they like fighting amongst themselves? Is he going to quit Square?” I don’t think it’s going to happen.

Leo: Kara Swisher who’s writing – I don’t know why, but she seems to be writing less and less at Re/code and I feel like Kara and Walter are just kind of fading away in the distance now that Re/code’s owned by Verizon.

Nathan: Vox.

Mark: TechCrunch is owned by Verizon.

Nathan: It’s still Comcast.

Leo: They’re all going to be owned by Comcast any minute now, right?

Nathan: Well Comcast, yea. NBC and Universal – they owned them before and they are investor in Vox. Vox bought them and they traded some stocks. So really they’re still owned by this, you know.

Leo: Same people.

Nathan: Well, Vox.

Leo: Vox. Anyway, Kara says Adam Bain is the inside choice. He is actually at Twitter right now. What is he, CFO at Twitter? They say he’s very nice (laughing). That’s it. That’s all I have to report.

Mark: He’s sales.

Leo: Oh he’s sales lead, that’s right. Yea, yea. Well he certainly knows Twitter and how Twitter’s making money. And he’s done very well. When he started – he’s been there 5 or 6 years – Twitter was hardly making any money.

Mark: Yea, I mean they’re revenue growth has not been the thing that investors and Wall Street have like had a problem with. It’s been mostly the user growth which has really stalled in the last few quarters. Until you put a sales guy at the head of it, maybe he’ll—

Leo: Solving the wrong problem.

Mark: Well, that’s one way to look at it for sure. I mean that also one of the arguments for Dorsey is that he invented the product and sort of has an eye for new features and leading the product. So maybe he could find a way to increase user growth so they can come anywhere close to Facebook.

Leo: So Re/code says NBC Universal poised to make big investments in Vox and BuzzFeed as well. So there you go. It’s so confusing. I’m glad you’re here to explain this all to me. Because I don’t know who owns whom anymore. Everybody’s going to be owned by Comcast in the next five years.

Owen: Right, it’s all the same thing. Same, same.

Leo: Same, same. Doesn’t change anything.

Nathan: That’s terrifying.

Leo: Horrible story. Thank you Boing Boing for publishing this one. We’ve interviewed Carl Malamud. He’s great. He’s an activist. His goal is to make government transparent. Among other things one of the things he does at his site is publish state laws. Those are the laws of the people. The people’s laws. Apparently the State of Georgia says “Those laws are copyrighted.” And they’re suing Carl Malamud for publishing the Georgia Code, the official Code of Georgia annotated. They say this is copyright. These copyright protections are there to incentivize the state to create annotated copies of the law. Without the copyright Georgia’s law would remain unannotated and furthermore this guy is equivalent to a terrorist.

Nathan: I love, I love ridiculous over reactions by any government entity.

Leo: It’s crazy.

Nathan: To anyone publishing anything is journalism basically,.

Leo: If I were a citizen of the State of Georgia, I’d be just livid about this. You don’t own those laws. Those are the states—and we all have a right to read the penal code of our state.

Owen: I want to know what, who actually filed that lawsuit and what—who’s actually suing this guy. Because—

Leo: The State of Georgia.

Nathan: There’s no way Georgia’s going to win that.

Owen: Right?

Nathan: It’s going to get this guy’s name out there even more. It’s going to expose some ridiculousness in the state government. Maybe get a few people a little more politically and socially aware. It might have a positive effect if anything else. But it’s just going to waste time and government’s money.

Leo: Carl’s doing the work of the Lord. Keep doing the good work, Carl.

Nathan: Fighting the good fight.

Leo: I don’t know—this is great story for us. I don’t know why he’s doing it, but President Obama has issued an executive order that the United States must build the superset of super computers ever than beginning Skynet. The National Strategic Computing Initiative will attempt to build the first ever exascale computer, 30 times faster than today’s fastest super computer. Department of Energy, Department of Defense, The National Science Foundation. It will be primary for use by NASA, the FBI and the National Institute of Health, Homeland Security and the National Atmospheric and something administration. NOAA’s weather. Accelerating delivery of capable exascale computing system. Oh you know why we need to do this? Because as of June China has the world’s fastest super computer. 33.86 petaflops. We need exaflops.

Mark: Don’t they have a really tall building, too?

Leo: Yea.

Mark: It’s like the tallest building in the world.

Leo: Let’s get to work on that.

Mark: Is this the new tallest building in the world competition?

Leo: Yea. Just not right that they should have a faster computer.

Owen: Are they doing anything special with it because China’s still China. I don’t know. I’ve been up and down China. There’s a lot of places I had to wear a mask because you can’t breathe.

Leo: In copyright news, Happy Birthday may finally be free. Did you know, I think you do, that Warner/Chappell owns the rights to the song Happy Birthday and every time – this is why you’ll watch a TV show and they’ll sing things like For He’s a Jolly Good Fellow. They don’t want to pay thousands of dollars in royalties to Warner/Chappell for using Happy Birthday.

Nathan: I did not know that. Happy Birthday is a song that--

Leo: “You owe us some money,” says Warner/Chappell.

Nathan: So every one of my birthday parties have been a cover? Like Karaoke in a sense? I don’t even know if I like that. I’m not sure.

Owen: Haven’t you been to the restaurants where they’re like, it’s like Chi Chi’s and they sing like a Mexican happy birthday. Like that’s why they always have their own Red Lobster birthday dash. Like they can’t sing Happy Birthday.

Leo: They’d have to pay money.

Mark: So if I started singing Happy Birthday right now, that would cost us money?

Leo: I would get a letter from Warner/Chappell saying you owe us.

Mark: Happy Birthday—

Leo: Stop it. You’re singing it wrong. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you.

Nathan: Do they enforce that?

Leo: Yes!

Nathan: There’s a guy at Warner/Chappell that goes around and like—

Leo: A guy? There’s a whole building.

Owen: How much did Stevie Wonder have to pay?

Leo: He doesn’t have to pay anything. He’s a living god.

Owen: Probably. But he sang that song Happy Birthday.

Leo: Yea but that’s not the same song.

Nathan: That’s a different song. Happy Birthday to ya. Different words.

Leo: Noted.

Owen: That’s when we go to court.

Leo: There’s a lawsuit going on. Good Morning to You Productions filed a class action law suit two years ago. She was told she would have to pay $1,500 to use the song in her Happy Birthday documentary. This is a lawsuit that’s been going on for 2 years. They found a smoking gun. It’s kind of complicated. But they found a song book that had the words and music to Happy Birthday in it without a copyright mark. In those days, it’s not true anymore, you’re copyrighted automatically. But in those days if you didn’t have a copyright next to you know, your stuff, it wouldn’t be copyrighted. And so it may be that this whole thing is going to go up in smoke. Warner/Chappell had the actual document, the songbook. It was submitted in discovery. The other side got it. But it was smudged. It’s really a great story. So watch carefully because soon it may be that we can finally be free at last, free at last. Sing Happy Birthday on this show.

Owen: I can’t wait.

Leo: That will be a happy day. When’s your birthday?

Owen: I’m excited. 10-17.

Leo: Come back in October.

Owen: We can celebrate, we can celebrate every day.

Leo: Come back in October and I will sing to you.

Owen: You do that. You should sing to me anyway and cut the check. You’ve got money, Uncle Leo. You love me.

Leo: I ain’t paying it to Warner/Chappell for using a song that’s a hundred years old.

Owen: The max is $1,500. That’s nothing to you. I’m not asking for an Audi or anything special. Help me out.

Leo: Our show today, all right, let me make some money then I’ll sing Happy Birthday to you.

Owen: Thank you.

Leo: Our show today brought to you by my mattress. I love my mattress. You wouldn’t think that you could buy a mattress on the internet but you can. And you many say, “But wait a minute. I don’t trust you, Leo. I’ve got to lie on this mattress to know if it’s comfortable. Because my needs are different than yours, Leo.” That’s true. That’s true. But whoever said lying on a mattress in a showroom for 5 minutes is anyway to buy a mattress? It’s not. So Casper does you a little bit better. How about 100 days? You can buy a Casper mattress and you’ll get free delivery and painless returns within 100 days. You can sleep on this for 100 nights and decide on night 99, “You know what? It isn’t the mattress for me.” And they’ll come and they’ll get it and they’ll take it away and you’ll pay nothing. I love my Casper. I think you’re going to like it. It is latex and memory foam. Comes in a box. That’s great. I got it for my son too for his dorm room because it came in the box. They could get it up 3 flights easily. When you open it up, it’s wrapped in Tyvek and they give you a little opener and you open it up and it goes fwppp... and suddenly that’s a queen size mattress that came in a box the size of a dorm refrigerator. Whoa. Now try that on your mattress at home. It is comfy, free delivery. It’s made in the USA. They’re revolutionizing the mattress industry by cutting the cost selling direct to you. $500 for a twin, $959 for a king size for the best mattress that you ever had. That’s about a third of what I paid for the mattress I got rid of that I didn’t like all that much. And by the way all you have to do is use the offer code TWIT and you’ll save $50. So that’s even more affordable. Even Ozzy loved it. Use the promo code TWIT and save big on your brand new mattress. No risk to you. Casper. I love my Casper. I love it.

Mark: So you don’t have the no dogs in the bed rule?

Leo: How could you do that? Do you not like Goron on the bed?

Mark: Yea, I try not to.

Leo: Oh, man, you’re a harsh taskmaster.

Owen: I don’t let my dogs—

Leo: He’s got those little stubby legs, he can’t—

Mark: Yea he can’t jump.

Leo: See he can’t get on the bed! You try that with a dog that can leap high enough to get on the bed. Then you’ll tell me. Because you’ll spend the rest of your life going, “No. Get down. No. No. Get down.”

Mark: Yea that’s true.

Owen: After a while if you train your dog they just know better. My dog’s 10. He knows not to jump into bed. He curls up on his little mat on the floor near the bed.

Leo: Don’t you want to sleep with your doggie?

Owen: I don’t need a furnace in the bed with me. Unless it’s winter time and I’m in a post-apocalyptic world where I don’t have heat or a blanket, no. I don’t.

Leo: It’s a three dog night, my friend, and you need a puppy.

Nathan: I’m surprised Casper doesn’t have doggie mattresses yet. I mean they could—

Leo: Wow. I’m calling.

Mark: Million dollar idea.

Nathan: They could come in something the size of like a graham cracker box.

Leo: Brilliant.

Owen: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Look, Jason. Cut that out of the show before you post it so I can go negotiate myself a deal. That was a great idea. Billions of Casper beds.

Leo: That is brilliant.

Owen: Shh. Cut that out.

Leo: That’s brilliant.

Jason: We’ll see.

Leo: Goron – am I pronouncing that right?

Mark: Goron, yea, goron. It’s from the Legend of Zelda.

Leo: Goron is a bat dog? What is he?

Nathan: Bat pig.

Mark: He’s a French bulldog.

Leo: He’s a French bulldog.

Owen: That’s my next dog. I want one of those.

Mark: It looks like a bat dog.

Leo: And he’s adorable. And he has his own Instagram feed. So.

Mark: Yea, GoronSF.

Leo: He doesn’t post as much as he used to. He’s slowing down.

Mark: He is slowing down.

Leo: He looks like he’s sleeping.

Mark: He’s using Google+ right now.

Leo: Is he really?

Mark: No. Nobody is.

Leo: That’s it. It’s the end for Instagram. It’s over. All right, two sad stories to wrap it up. Actually one happy, one sad story. I’ll start with the sad story. Maybe you heard about the hitch hiking robot –

Nathan: (Laughing) oh my God.

Leo: What?

Nathan: Yea, I heard about it. American’s are terrible.

Leo: So he hitchhiked all the way across Canada no problem. This is a little robot, HitchBot, built by researchers from Ryerson and the University of Toronto and he’s been going – so the deal is he can’t move. But he can talk. So he sits by the road with his thumb out, cars pull up and he says, “Hey, give me a ride.” Actually I think I have a video somewhere of the robot. And he hitched all the way across Canada doing this.

Nathan: Was Canada the only country? I thought he made it across another country too.

Leo: He’s been doing a lot of this.

Mark: Canada would be a good place to start. They’re very nice.

Leo: See, that’s the problem is that maybe that gave Goron the wrong idea. Goron, I’m sorry, HitchBot. Do not let your dog hitch alone.

Mark: I don’t have to worry. He can’t get into the car.

Leo: Maybe that gave him the wrong idea because he had such success going across all of Canada. The Canadians picked him up. And Europe too. He went across Europe. He’s not going to make it across the United States. He left just a week ago, left and went through Boston. Much of New England. See there he is going from Halifax to Victoria. No problem. But just last night, I’m sad to say, HitchBot met his unfortunate demise in Philadelphia. The city of brotherly love.

Mark: But not robot love.

Leo: He was torn asunder.

Owen: Uncle Leo, let me tell you something.

Mark: Look at that picture.

Leo: That is so sad.

Owen: You don’t know what this is. This is a paddy wack. This is an old thing that cops used to use instead of billy clubs.

Leo: Yea, they called it a cosh. You hit somebody in the head with that. Yea.

Owen: I keep one of these in my office. I’ve got a bat downstairs. I’ve got stuff in my car.

Nathan: It looks like a flip flop.

Leo: Yea, it’s a flip flop with lead in it. That thing’s got lead in it.

Owen: This thing will knock you out. But I’m just saying. You’re worried about Skynet. In Philly we don’t play that. We’re going to kill every single animatronic robot that we don’t know nothing about. I’m not worried about Skynet taking over Android all that kind of stuff. Because you come out here to the east coast?

Leo: (laughing) You killed HitchBot.

Owen: We’re killing everything. Everything dies. See that little trash can looking at me funny? I don’t know him. Probably worth some money, I’m going to open it up and see what’s inside. I’m just saying it’s America.

Leo: Two weeks.

Owen: Americans are evil. Evil Americans.

Leo: It got through—it started at Marble Head. Got through Boston. Got through New York City.

Owen: It got through New York? I’m surprised it got through New York.

Leo: Got to Philly and that was –

Nathan: Couldn’t make it through Philly.

Leo: Couldn’t make it through Philly.

Owen: Killadelphia. It wouldn’t have made it through Chicago either. It wouldn’t have made it through Texas. Like there’s like 4 spots in the United States where you should have avoided. You should have come through Jersey if you wanted to live. You don’t go through Philadelphia. You don’t go through Chicago. You don’t go anywhere near Texas. Like those are dangerous places.

Nathan: What’s the 4th? What’s the 4th? I want to know what the 4th is.

Owen: L.A.

Nathan: L.A. (laughing).

Owen: L.A. You see the traffic in L.A.? Do you see the people in L.A.? Nobody cares about anything in L.A. L.A. is a dangerous place to be if you’re a robot.

Leo: If you read this, read his Twitter feed. He had thousands of followers on Twitter. “Oh dear. My body was damaged. But I live on with all my friends. Sometimes bad things happen to good robots.” And finally, “My trip must come to an end for now. But my love for humans will never fade. Thanks, friends.”

Nathan: Can you do your rap lyrics in that voice?

Leo: (laughing).

Nathan: I want to hear the rap lyrics in that voice.

Leo: I like big butts and I cannot lie. Those other brothers can deny. When a robot walks in with an itty—

Mark: Itty-bitty tin.

Nathan: Yes, itty-bitty tin.

Leo: I go spring. Hmm. I like robots and I cannot lie. Now here’s the happy story. Man shoots down drone hovering over a house.

Nathan: Yes.

Leo: This guy looks like a real psychopath. No he doesn’t. I think this is great.

Mark: Is this also in Philadelphia?

Leo: Yea. No, Hillview, Kentucky. Neighborhood gunshots called the police. A drone was hovering over his house where his teen daughter was sun bathing. So he pulled out his gun and shot it. Yea, I think that’s great.

Mark: Yea he did.

Leo: The drone’s owner the police say was flying it to take pictures of somebody else’s house. Merideth said, “Well, I came out and it was down by the neighbor’s house about 10 feet off the ground looking under their canopy that they’ve got under their backyard. I went and got my shotgun. And I said to myself, I said, ‘I’m not going to do anything unless it’s directly over my property.’”

Owen: Peeping Tom digital expert.

Leo: He says shortly after the shooting he received a visit from 4 men who said they owned the drone and said “It cost us $1800.”

Owen: Woo.

Leo: Merideth says he stood his ground. “I had my 40mm block on me and they started toward me. And I told them, ‘If you cross my sidewalk, there’s going to be another shooting.’”

Owen: Ok, Bill Clinton.

Leo: (laughing) I told ‘em. There’s going to be another shooting. If you come across—

Owen: I did not shoot that drone. I did not shoot that drone.

Leo: He’s going to sue the drone’s owners. He says, “You know when you’re on your—“ You know I think he’s absolutely right. If I had a teenage daughter or son sun bathing in the back and some drone came, nnnnnnn, I’d be thrilled to shoot it. I want to get a bean bag cannon so it’s non-lethal.

Owen: Yea, I would have stole it. But that’s just me.

Leo: Yes. Shoot it then steal it.

Owen: I’d have thrown a blanket on it, trapped it down and they’d show up like, “Where’s my?” and I’d be like, “I don’t know.” Went and bought me a remote online and a DGI. I’ve got me a new drone.

Leo: And I’ve got to praise William Merideth because he knew enough even though he had a Glock, to get the shotgun.

Owen: Yea.

Leo: Right?

Owen: He’s been skeet shooting before, he knows the drill.

Leo: He wants a wide pattern. You don’t want a narrow, you want a wide pattern.

Nathan: He’s done this before.

Leo: (laughing) he looks like he has.

Nathan: Shotgun’s into the air, so…

Leo: I’m totally sympathetic.

Nathan: Next time we’ll use a javelin, a spear.

Leo: A spear. I believe in fairness. I use a bow and arrow. Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes the robot edition of This Week in Tech. It’s been great having you, Mark Milian. Thanks for being here, coming all this way.

Mark: It’s been my pleasure.

Leo: That’s where we should go these days?

Mark: You got it.

Leo: And are you covering anything exciting that you want to tell the world about? Something new?

Mark: Lots of exciting things. We’ll have a couple of people at DEF CON and BlackHat with all the crazy security stuff going on.

Leo: Yea, that’s very interesting.

Mark: At Games Com we’ll have coverage from which starts this week.

Leo: Awesome. Awesome, we’ll look forward to that. Bloomberg Business. Nathan Olivarez-Giles. He covers tech for the Wall Street Journal. Pretty good gig, pretty good gig. What are you working on these days?

Nathan: Not bad, not bad. Well you know I’m focused on consumer tech. The Journal actually just had a little tech conference in China. So we do things globally too, Mark.

Leo: Did you go to China?

Nathan: I did not. I wish I would have gone.

Leo: You’ve been there, though?

Nathan: Never.

Leo: You have been there.

Mark: I’ve not been to China.

Leo: Oh, man. Let’s all go to China.

Owen: I’ve been to China.

Nathan: Why don’t we do an episode of this show in China?

Leo: That’s who was in China.

Owen: I was in China.

Leo: I love China.

Nathan: Let’s go to China.

Owen: I skip all the local dates. I’m global.

Leo: China has great food. It’s not Chinese food oddly enough.

Owen: And you know what the best thing about China is? Like they don’t take tips. You have to like force your money upon them. Like they do not accept your tips. They just want the price of their food.

Leo: Good for them. I like that. Owen J.J. Stone, always a pleasure. Ohdoctah. His new site is his old site. Believe it or not.

Owen: Yea.


Owen: Those 4 letters. And I’m making movies now because I bought a new toy.

Leo: Man, that is some major commitment to movie making. That is—is that an official steady cam?

Owen: Yes. It’s the new DVR Ronin. It’s awesome. It is awesome. I don’t know what I’m doing yet, but I just bought it so I’m thinking about—

Leo: Oh, that’s the Ronin.

Owen: Yea.

Leo: DJI makes some really cool stuff. That’s from—

Owen: The Phantom.

Leo: Yea, they’re the Phantom guys. Nice, nice.

Owen: It’s nickel and diming me for stuff though because every time I buy something I got to buy something extra. But it’s worth it. Because—

Leo: You know what’s a pain in the butt and you do need it? It’s hard to balance that thing. You’ve got to have the hanger so you can balance it.

Owen: No, now it’s like, dude it’s super easy.

Leo: Really?

Owen: They’ve fixed things. It’s so much better and so much faster. Because I don’t even know what I’m doing and I get a bounce. So, get one, Uncle Leo. We can make movies. I don’t know what you’re going to make but you can make one.

Leo: Well, they’d be very steady if we do.

Owen: True story.

Leo: Thank you all for being here. We do TWIT ever Sunday afternoon, 3:00 P.M. Pacific, 6:00 P.M. Eastern time, 2200 UTC on Please watch live or join us in our studio. You can do that too. Just e-mail We’ll be glad to put a stripy chair out for you so you can be comfortable and you can watch it. If you can’t watch live, well you can always watch on-demand and all our shows are on-demand. Audio and video at In this case, what is it? This-week-in-tech. It’s not a great title. Just go to, click the link. It’s probably the easiest thing to do. Also and wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for being here! Another TWIT is in the can. We take you now to Hillview, Kentucky.

Narrator: Doing the TWIT. All right. Doing the TWIT.

Female Reporter: Along Earlywood Way in Bullitt County, KY., neighbors couldn’t ignore a certain buzz Sunday evening.

Leo: I love that. I love how news tells the story.

Female Reporter: Diebold said for the first time in person, she saw a drone and what looked like a camera, on board.

Leo: It’s the worst assignment you can get.

Neighbor: “What in the world are they looking for?”

Female Reporter: She wasn't the only one on the block concerned about the unmanned aircraft. So was William Merideth, especially when he says it stopped to hover over his fenced in backyard where his two daughters were sitting outside.

News Story: “I wanted to see if it was going to stay there and it did and I reacted,” Merideth said. “We live in a society now where we don't know what these people are doing. We don't know if they are pedophiles looking for kids, we don't know if they are thieves, we don't know if it is Isis.”

Female Reporter: Merideth stands behind—

Owen: I don’t know if it’s Isis? Oh my God.

Leo: Isis? It’s come to chop my head off.

Owen: Whoa, that just went from whoa …I don’t know if it’s Jesus or—

Leo: (laughing) How could it be Isis? I don’t know what it is.

Owen: It’s going to be the Russians. I don’t know what.

Leo: I’m not going to take a chance.

Owen: It could be Fidel Castro. I don’t know what’s going on over there.

Leo: I’m going to shoot him. I don’t care.

Owen: 4 men, 4 people.

Leo: It could be Marilyn Monroe singing Happy Birthday. I don’t care.

Owen: Whoa that escalated real quick.

Leo: (laughing) Isis.

Nathan: Zero to a hundred real quick!

Owen: Real quick.


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