This Week in Tech 1008 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

00:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's time for Twit this Week in Tech. What a great panel. It's going to be kind of conversational today because it's so much fun to talk to Devendra Hardawar, senior editor from Engadget, jennifer Patterson-Tui, who is a home automation expert at the Verge, and, of course, doc Rock, our aloha man from Hawaii. Jennifer and Devendra are getting excited about CES. We'll take a look at what they expect, including Matter updates. Does Matter really matter? Big screen TVs less expensive than ever before. We'll also talk about Australia's plan to ban social networks for people under 16. Could that possibly work? It's all coming up next on this Week in Tech Podcasts you love From people you trust. This is TWIT. This is TWIT this Week in Tech, episode 1008. Recorded Sunday, december 1st 2024. Internet legal. It's time for Twit this Week in Tech, the show where we get together with the week's best journalists to talk about the week's best news. Actually, you guys have been the best journalists for more than a week.

01:21 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Let's say hello.

01:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Hope. So that was a slip. Let's say hello to Jennifer passatui. She works at the verge where she's the home automation mama, smart home, mama hi. Hello, welcome back thank you, jennifer's a regular on tech news weekly and we somehow managed to lose her number and couldn't get you back on Twitter. But we got it, thanks to Micah. So great to have you. Doc Rock is also here the doctor of the rockter. He's director of strategic partnerships at Ecamm, which has nothing to do with why he's on. He's on because, man, you did something good.

02:02 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Yeah, we did, we actually won a game.

02:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They won a game. Ladies, a game. Ladies and gentlemen, congratulations. Okay, and no, you're on because we love you. Uh, we do use Ecamm. We're using Ecamm right now and uh, in the cloud, but that's a complete coincidence yeah, I love what you guys did.

02:22 - Doc Rock (Guest)
It's so I'm trying to explain to people and their head blown because they don't. They don't understand, but I'm like it's kind of.

02:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So we run Ecamm on a Macintosh in the cloud at Mac stadium and splash top into it, and then there's something to do with Restream that I don't understand. That streams it to eight different platforms. It's crazy. Anyway, before we get into that, devendra Hardwar is also here. We love Devendra. Hello. Senior editor at Engadget. Hello, devendra, good to see you.

02:50 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Good to see you. Happy to be back, yeah.

02:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
A lot of times you're on when I'm not here, because you're kind of one of my regular, esteemed fill-in people, so it's nice to have you. I could just relax. You should relax in the conversation, that's god knows. I've been doing that for 20 years. Nothing wrong with that. Uh, biggest story of the week is that australia has, uh has done what everybody else has been waiting and wondering they've banned social media for everyone. Banned it for everyone under 16. Doesn't go into effect until next year. I mean next, next year, like it's a year away, but still that's a big deal. I'm sorry this new york times has decided to keep me out of here every news site does this.

03:38
Yeah, I am a subscriber, by the way. I just I'll sign in and then we'll be able to see the story Unclear. Even the Australian parliament, or whatever they've got there, says I'm not sure how this is going to be enforced, but it's up to the social media networks to figure it out. Is this a good?

04:00 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
idea. It feels a lot like a kind of this is a warning, you guys need to sort this out. It's going to get, or we're going to, really crack down because there's no penalties for the people that sign up. This is all designed to penalize the companies. So it feels a bit like grandstanding, to some extent like a warning like you need to shape up or ship out very straightforward australian people.

04:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They, like you know they don't pussyfoot around it it's sailed, according to the new york times, sailed through the parliament in uh. The lower house on wednesday passed the senate on thursday. Prime minister has said it puts australia at the vanguard of efforts to protect the mental health and well-being of children from the detrimental effects of social media, such as online hate or bullying.

04:49 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Uh they have to take reasonable steps. Again, they'll never be bullied again.

04:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They have to take reasonable steps or the corporations. We find about 32 million dollars for systemic failures to implement age requirements. You know these guys make so much money that 32 million isn't they. They might just say, yeah, fine, whatever, we'll pay them fine. Devendra, is it possible this is the real question. We talked about this a little bit last week Is it possible to do age checks without violating the privacy of everyone who uses the medium?

05:22 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I don't really think so.

05:22
Like we've been seeing this, reports of this happening for a while, but also this same conversation happens around like limiting porn access in the US, in some states too, and it is from what I've seen from the researchers like it is kind of impossible to do that without infringing on other rights or making the experience more complicated.

05:41
And also I think this whole thing kind of just misses the point, like because kids have had access to this stuff for a while, um, it's really hard to just say no, this is impossible now, especially when you're not putting any restrictions on it. And I feel like it misses the point of what they really need is to just really, um, push these companies to be better rather than limit it, uh, altogether. I think it's just like an easy fix to assume like okay, okay, you're making the internet safe for these kids. Kids are going to find a way around this stuff. They want to talk to their friends in other countries. So this is not really much of a fix, but it'll make the adults and the politicians in Australia feel better about themselves, I guess.

06:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I remember when I was a kid that it was generally considered really horrendously damaging to kids that they would watch hours of TV.

06:26 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
This is what it feels like to me.

06:28 - Doc Rock (Guest)
It feels like our generations television it's like rock and roll in your brain the previous generations music yeah it's like prior to that, this is rotting your brain.

06:38 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
To be fair, though, you know, this social media is a little bit more intense and pervasive, um than TV or rock and roll, but it does feel like it has a similar kind of this generation. This is what we're dealing with, and I think you know my point about this being sort of you know, a warning shot is. I think Australia knows, and companies, the countries that have explored this know, that there isn't really anything you can legislate here, but you do need to create the sort of a sense of we need to fix what's broken about these platforms, because there are so many benefits. I mean, when I was last on Leo, we talked about this. I think we were talking about TikTok because there was something similar was happening but there are so many benefits to social media and the internet and having allowing children online, but there are obviously significant downsides and things that have to be policed and managed by either parents or communities, or the government in this case, but how you do it and what the detriment also is of some kind of law like this. Like you say, people have friends and connections that they may lose and that can have a negative benefit on people just as much as cutting them off offline.

07:54
It's not just social media too. I think YouTube is not included in this. Messaging groups are not included in this, so it feels like a sort of needle in the haystack to some extent. Are not included in this, so it feels like a sort of needle in the haystack. To some extent. We're going to target this one area and say it's bad, you're not allowed on it until you're 16, but you can go to YouTube and you can online message with your friends. So it's sort of putting the. I feel like putting the cart before the know let's come up with. There's plenty of great analogies that we could come up with, but in some sense I'm as a parent with the 16 and 13 year old children. I appreciate that people are making an effort here to address some problems and bring attention to problems that social media is creating, but this type of blanket ban isn't going to fix, is not a solution.

08:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Imagine if australia conversation imagine if australia had announced a ban for television for kids under 16 in 1967. Yeah, no television for kids under 16. The difference this time is that it's technology and there's something um. A certain group of people feel technology, have this kind of attitude towards it like it's dangerous magic. Uh, but it's.

09:13 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I don't think it's any different than tv or radio or yeah, you know what the big difference is, though, here is that it is isolating and it is individual. So you are on a watch at gilligan's island wasn't isolating but you would maybe watch with your friends or your family, whereas social media, it's this, it's this, isn't it, it's the, the generation that is just this, this generation though says I am socializing this is where

09:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
my friends are are on instagram. That's who I'm talking to, much more so than somebody sitting next to me on the couch being a couch potato. I'm sorry, go ahead, doc.

09:47 - Doc Rock (Guest)
No, I was saying like okay, back then, when Gilligan's Island was a thing and Batman and all of those shows, I was the only male in my household, so I watched it in the basement by myself and I spent a lot of time.

09:58
Look what happened to him. Yeah, so I do feel that. Yes, I understand why people think the tech is scary, but a lot of that has to do with in the US at least, it's our education system, because when we had opportunity, when people like Leo and I dove into tech when we were young, everybody else thought we were absolutely insane. This is crazy. The internet's a dangerous place, whatever.

10:21
And in the US, honestly, the media treated it as dangerous, treated and treated as dangerous, up until they all got their own sites and became part owners of these media companies and then they stopped saying how scary it was and everything on the news about at the end was go to our website, go to our social media accounts. So the parents a lot of them still have that it's a dangerous place heavily, heavily mired in their brain because that's the way it was up until about early 2000s. So there's that. And then, well, all I do for my niece I personally don't have any kids, but for my niece we just tell her we protect her self-esteem and we teach her to have some self-worth. And kids with good self-esteem don't get bullied.

11:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It doesn't change your attitude if you know that rupert murdoch is the guy behind this, as he is the guy behind every damn thing that happens terrible in australia because he has a.

11:21 - Doc Rock (Guest)
he has a monetary investment to get you back to his forms of media Watch. Fox Don't.

11:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You could argue, fox does more to harm your brain than Instagram, absolutely. In May, rupert Murdoch's News Corp, the country's Australia's biggest newspaper publisher, began an editorial campaign to ban children under 16 from social media. This came straight from them, called let them be kids. Through the middle of this year, new news corp mastheads in the parliamentary inquiry aired emotional accounts from parents my child has lost their life due to bullying. Uh, this is scandalously wrong.

12:01
Now, uh, on wednesday, paris martineau, who writes for the Information, brought up the article she wrote for the Information last weekend about a company called Yati which uses AI to estimate age, and this is something that certainly Yati would very much like to have happen in the US as well as in Australia. Onlyfans uses Yachty, tiktok uses Yachty. The idea is, when it looks at you, it says, oh, you're under 16. No more for you. By the way, louisiana is doing this. They have age verification. I think it's for porn specifically. But let's say that this technology existed, that you somehow and I'm skeptical could accurately identify somebody's age by looking at them, like to the precision that you could say okay, you're under 16, you can't use this. Would it then be okay if we could do this in a privacy forward way?

13:08 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I would, I would really wonder about where that data is coming from. You know, there's just, there's just so much else involved when you're making these considerations.

13:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't. They admit they don't work very well on Asian people.

13:18 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
There's. There's going to be a lot of gaps. Yeah, there's going to be a lot of things your data set is not looking at. Just depending on the type of person, depending on how wealthy you are, you may look younger than somebody else. So, no, I would not have faith that this would work.

13:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Facebook is using Yachty, tiktok is using Yachty. It's going to be everywhere. This all just feels like a distraction right.

13:39 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I always get quoted eight to ten years younger than I am which is good, I'd say you're 37.

13:51 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
See, that's why I'm saying I've always been quoted older because I've had like gray hair since I was a teenager. So what I'm going to like? Mess up all these AI filters, you know.

14:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, jennifer, you're the one with kids this age. You're the. You're the one with one kid who would pass and one kid who wouldn't pass.

14:07 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Well, my youngest has just become, technically, internet legal right, because, in theory, 13 is the youngest you're allowed to be.

14:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Internet legal.

14:16 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Internet legal. It's funny little things keep popping up, like MetaQuest. I get things saying, things saying oh, now that your child is 13, they're allowed access to this, this and this, and so my whole sort of internet landscape for her has has suddenly opened wide up. Not that she wasn't already on a lot of these things, although I've never let her have an instagram account I've no, I'm not a fan of instagram she doesn't currently have an instagram account no, but she um and my.

14:43
So my son does use tick tock, but he doesn't post. She's not being allowed. He just looks at it.

14:49 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Yes, he's the scroller, that's what I do, by the way and I've.

14:54 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
You know one thing I had my daughter's very creative and we just got a kitten and I had sort of said to her well, if you're interested in using social media, let's maybe do something creative. Um, so we wanted to, yeah, create an account, you know, because the main thing she likes to look at tiktok when she looks with me is that the cat videos you know what, jennifer?

15:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
that's kind of brilliant because she gets to do it, she gets to participate, but but anonymously, as a kitty, right not putting herself out and be creative and all that yeah, and that's the thing it puts that spin right um.

15:26 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I teach my niece and nephew they're both internet legal. That's funny. I never heard that before it's a great phrase you have to create more, do you consume? Now, that's easy, coming from a creator and I'm the phone call, so I'm like, yeah, you guys can be on the platform, but you have to create more to consume. So my nephew makes beats and dance videos because he's a professional dancer. He's been on tv the whole nine yards and my niece she's just, she's not ready yet.

15:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So aren't we glad that tipper gore did not ban video games for people under 16?

15:54 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I lived through that yeah we went through that.

15:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We thought that was going to ruin that generation it was uh.

16:00 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I lived in connecticut in the 90s. Who was it? Lieberman?

16:03 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Joseph Lieberman.

16:05 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Always about the video games and how evil video games are, I don't know. Spending a lot of time on the internet and playing games got me where I am today.

16:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It feels like demonizing technology and demonizing the internet is really for political game, not because they really care.

16:19 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
That's what it feels like to me, I think that's very true, except for, as you know, as a parent I have seen where there can be harms and you know there are downsides to every technology. There are downsides to rock and roll, downsides to television, and you know, I think it's always important to keep that dialogue open and to be looking for solutions when problems arise. Dialogue open and to be looking for solutions when problems arise. I agree, a blanket ban here is not one achievable, or two really going to help, because kids find the way around very easily.

16:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, the Australian government says we understand that, we don't care.

16:58 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
We don't care. But you know social media has. You know we went through the pandemic too. Which sort of hyper-realization for social media, because everyone social media has. You know we went through the pandemic too, which sort of hyper realization for social media, because that was the only way people could communicate. So for my children's generation, they've grown up with social media and it became the primary way they communicate. My son doesn't text message his friends, he Snapchats them Right.

17:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is how he's social yeah, so it, but.

17:30 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
But also the flip side. I think the the danger and I haven't seen it with my son because he's social in real life, um, but is when social is just digital and you don't go out and you don't. You know, you use that as the crutch because it's so easy, for children especially. You know we seem to have. I saw a comment in the chat that there's been no proof that social media has any negative effect on people's emotions. I mean, and there's research on both sides. But I think it's so much easier to create personas on social media and be who you want to be. It's so much easier.

18:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You think kids don't do that in high school.

18:11 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
But the point is, it's a lot easier. I was a drama kid.

18:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I had a persona. Believe me.

18:15 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
But when you're in, you know it's a lot easier to hide behind the screen than it, and then, when you go into real life, be a completely different person, or be shy and not and so the healthy balance is the important thing, but I don't think that's the parent's job, and you do a good job.

18:30
I was coming to this is really down to the parents and the education of the parents, not so much the children, because we did not grow up with this. Um, you know the generation that grew up with this. You know the generation that grew up with social media will be having children in the next 10, 15 years and maybe sooner, and that we have not had. We don't have the tools as parents to really understand the impact it's having, because we haven't seen the long term effect. We just see these awful stories about terrible accidents or terrible things that happen to people who's. You know that people connect to social media when in fact there could be many other extenuating circumstances and you know, but the internet loves a good headline about that and that's sad. So we see this a lot and I find that you know, as a parent, when you see someone saying, well, my son was driven to do this because of being bullied on social media, you can see why they're going to.

19:30
The social media was the problem, not the people. And the parents have to be educated and they have to learn how to manage these types of things. I mean, one of the things I do is I use a program called Bark which monitors my children's social media accounts and their messages and other things and sends me alerts when it comes across what it considers potentially concerning content. What it tells me can be quite often pretty useless, but sometimes it'll come out with, you know, something that was like okay, now I need to go talk to my daughter about this or my son about this, and those types of tools are useful. You kind of have to fight technology with technology, but I just don't think a lot of parents know about these things and are using these tools. So, yes, it's about educating the parents and this is what I was saying about earlier on. This is opening that dialogue.

20:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Do you remember Stranger? Oh yes, I feel like, uh, there's a whole generation that grew up never playing outside because they were con. Their parents were convinced that there was a stranger looking around every corner to ready to kidnap and abuse their child. Well, I think that did more to isolate kids and create weird kids than the internet did, and it was bs. The biggest danger to kids then and now I know it's people they know is relatives and, uh, parents, and so this to me, this is this. It's. It's tragic because we have invented something very powerful with technology, and I think that the problem is it scares some people, and these people are playing upon our fears and their own fears to damage something that could be incredibly useful I don't.

21:20 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I mean, I don't want to take social media side on this. Yeah, there are some benefits to it as well. I use it every day. Um, this stuff is scary. Like we should be aware of what we're doing and how we're using it and how our kids are doing. I think that's the important line to toe here, because there has been a lot of research, you know, in the past saying like oh yeah, instagram has affected teen girls in some ways or other kids in some ways, and then there's counter research saying that that's.

21:44
That's overblown too and it's like clearly something is happening and you just need to be aware as a parent.

21:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But the problem, I think they should ban mean girls in high school. That's what they should ban.

21:54 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I mean ban people in general yeah, ban humanity, basically I mean we.

22:00 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
We are currently building a new administration of just uh, meanies and jerks. So you know, get ready. Who knows, who knows.

22:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We can't ban everything. Jennifer, you use this Bark app, which is cool. Barkus, how much Is it expensive?

22:14 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, I think I want to say it's like $12 a month.

22:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, it's a little pricey. It's quite a lot, oh, and they have a watch.

22:21 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
some people want to be quite frustrating because it the iPhone has very for it doesn't work well with the iPhone, so it's my opinion that I might be grandfathered in and it covers every any device that they use, so phones, watches, computers. As I said, it's difficult. The iPhones restrictions make it hard for it to examine some platforms it can't work.

22:48
It's got this weird thing they have to enter their passcode to allow it to access. So every sort of 10 minutes or 20 minutes their phones will be like enter your passcode. And my kids are like this is really annoying. I was like, okay, it's this or an Android phone.

23:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Isn't it also um? That would be child abuse so I I think that that's really the solution, not governmental regulation, but that these social media apps and the platforms are running on the iphone and android phones should do a better job of giving parents control parental controls, and that's I think that's what we were talking about last time is tiktok had just come out with some more robust parental controls, because some of the platforms really do have very poor restrictions that you can implement.

23:32 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Like I can actually control my son's TikTok account and control his feed. As much as you can control a TikTok feed, you know, like refresh it to get rid of certain things, and those are all new features that you can get so many of. So Instagram does not have great parental controls. I think they just recently announced new ones that they were bringing.

23:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They now have a teenager account.

23:55 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, so that's what we need to see more of. We need to see better parental controls, and parents need to be able to be able to go in and change settings and like. Also, also, you know, you have parental controls on the iphone so you can limit time um time restrictions on apps, um, and android has something similar, um, again, kids get around them, so you have to always be on top of it, um, which is is a full-time job, but it's uh you're sitting.

24:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
it's important, jennifer, with three people who probably would be the kids who would have gotten around. Oh, absolutely, 100%. Didn't hurt us that bad right. In fact, in a way, maybe it taught us how to use computers.

24:35 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I am taking that learning towards my like. My oldest child is just six years old now, so this is a 10 year from now problem for me, or so. But to what you were saying, leo, like I don't think it's just government regulation for a lot of things, for dangerous things, has been helpful on the whole for society so I'm in favor of seat belts, yeah the danger is, but the companies weren't, you know if we left it up to the car?

24:56
oh, no, we'd be flying through windows left and right. Um, but it is like over regulation, I think something like a full on ban of an entire suite of apps and software just seems a bit overblown. Like this is this is not going to last in Australia, but hopefully they and we all come up with some sort of solution. Actually, your solution to living a better life is just to stop caring about Facebook and Instagram and what's actually happening. He's all about metaverse and AR and everything. His whole new life philosophy is essentially just don't bother with all the negativity that people are sending you.

25:36 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Don't apologize, don't apologize.

25:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, there's actually a creepy strain among the Silicon Valley billionaires. Jeff Jarvis calls it test creel that's the acronym, but the point of it is primarily doesn't mat, this generation doesn't matter. What really matters is we get to the stars and that the net the generations down the road, so they're willing to sacrifice everything in order to create AGI, uh, transfer. You go to ex-planetary and all of that is for the future generations and in order to get there. By the way this is, it's very close to eugenics. Maybe it's not a bad thing if we prune out some of the current people. It's absolutely eugenics it's eugenics.

26:18
That's why Elon Musk says have more kids, but not if you're, you know, not in the approved categories, and so it's creepy as hell. The other thing I would say is important is that kids are growing up in a world with social media. They're going to grow up in this world is isn't it a disadvantage a little bit of disadvantage if they don't get access to it till they're 16? They're not learning the skills. Wouldn't it be better if they learned the skills of how to manage it, how not to overuse it, how to use it?

26:45 - Doc Rock (Guest)
appropriately. Leo, I want to travel on this one. As a hood kid. You know why I don't use terminologies like sketchy neighborhoods. First of all, I hate that because it's a little bit. I'm gonna just call it racist when people say this neighborhood yeah, you know what they mean.

27:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I know what they mean when they say sketchy.

27:04 - Doc Rock (Guest)
As a hood kid. I can go into any neighborhood and anywhere in any country and I'm good. Why? My neck's on the swivel, I know how to hold myself, I know how to carry myself. I am pretty much not in any danger. Why? Because I was exposed to it and learned how to mitigate these circumstances, as opposed to be fearful of it and hide from it.

27:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Not, that I would ever advocate any kid be brought up in those kind of rough circumstances.

27:34 - Doc Rock (Guest)
It was the eight eighties in DC and New York, not for the weak of heart, okay.

27:36
But what that has allowed me to do as an adult is I live a primarily fearless life, and living a primarily fearless life has allowed me to succeed in many other categories where everybody was afraid to go into, I was always able to go into stuff that other people would be scared of, including us staying in tech.

27:51
Honestly, back then, when everybody was scared of tech, we were fearless of tech, so we went in and we learned all these things and now we're able to mitigate these things. So I this is a catch 22, cuz I have friends who are super, super tight lipped about stuff around our kids. Because I have friends who are super, super tight-lipped about stuff around our kids and I have the friends that they, like I'm not gonna hide swearing in front of my kids. They're gonna hear it in a real world, but they will never say that to me, right, they would never address me or insult any other adult. I find the kids who raised in the house, where that's not taken away from them, they're very respectful. The kids where it's taken away from them, when they get a chance to, they want to try and they want to explode get the opposite right.

28:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They want to try things that were taken away from them. My wife was raised in a household where she wasn't allowed to listen to ozzy osbourne and black sabbath. As a result and it drives me crazy she's still a big fan of hair metal bands, and it's driving me crazy I can just see her with her hair teased out. Don't tell her, I said that I tried to tease my hair out and it went too far, so there's an unintended consequence.

28:50 - Doc Rock (Guest)
And honestly, we're not talking about sugar, we're not talking about fat, we're not talking about the horrible things that are really bad. We're sidetracked by this stuff. So I even believe like if you check the studies, as Dev said, they're on both sides who paid for the study. When you read a study, always go to the back and see who paid for this study before you go all in on what they said.

29:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, simple I agree with you. Thank you, doctor. You're not a doctor for nothing actually. Uh, for people who don't know you, you kind of were a doctor, weren't you? In the?

29:23 - Doc Rock (Guest)
in the afghan afghanistan army. Yeah, no, I didn't go to. I wasn't great. I didn't go to kuwait, I was at that point old.

29:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You are older than you look.

29:31 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Okay, that's what I'm saying. I'm gonna just keep the 37, though keep it down, leo.

29:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Privacy I celebrated a uh birthday, uh on uh friday, and it wasn't friday, it was happy.

29:42 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Birthday wasn't a happy oh, you're a thanksgiving niche baby yeah, thanksgiving, ish, that's me moving around

29:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
thanks, yeah yeah, anyway, uh, good conversation. I. I think there are a lot of issues here. I think you're right, we got to protect kids from sugar too, uh, but I think that's the parents job, right? And, um, I hate to see the australian government say, no, no social media for you. Maybe, though maybe, jennifer, you're right in a way that this isn't intended to be come a law, because look at, you see tiktok and instagram and others already kind of making some progress in parental controls. Maybe it's just to scare them a little and get them to do the right thing.

30:25 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I hope that's what it will do, because I honestly don't see that this would be feasible. I mean, you know, there's so many bans on so many things that people get around and this is, as we've said, has benefits, has negatives, but if you know, the fear of regulation generally is what creates the sort of incentive in companies to fix the problems that they've identified. There's no doubt that there are problems with social media that need to be addressed and hopefully this type of legislation coming from countries and laws that we may see in other countries too. I don't think Australia is alone and I know Britain has sort of looked quite seriously into regulation and law for social media. And we have it here. You have to be 13. So I mean, it's not like this is completely out of left field. So I think hopefully we'll see the platform step up to address some of these issues. But ultimately it's not just down to the technology. This is a society. It's social, it's societal. We all have to kind of help mitigate the harms, um, and it does.

31:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
If it's kids we're worried about, it's got to start with the parents kappa, which sets the age uh, 13, doesn't say you can't use it. It says that they can't gather information about you. That you know it's a very that they can't gather information about you, you know it's a very different kind of law. That, I think, is a good thing, right? You shouldn't. We shouldn't advertise sugary sweet cereals to children and we shouldn't gather information about them when they sign up for platforms.

31:57 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
But you're not technically allowed to sign up for Facebook if you're 13. At all.

32:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, that's Facebook's response to COPPA, which is look for Facebook if you're at all. If you're no, that's Facebook's response to COPPA, which is right, look, all. Right. In that case, don't be using our site if you're under 13.

32:09 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
What they could say is okay, we won't collect information on you, but they decide that's a little too hard so there's no fun in that for them that's a little too.

32:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's a bridge too far for us. Jennifer Patterson Tui is here. Great to have you JPT from she's on the verge. Uh, do you do their podcast right?

32:26 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I, yeah, I'm on the verge cast occasionally. Yes, uh, especially when we, whenever there's something about matter oh, does matter, matter?

32:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
it doesn't matter matter.

32:36 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Um, yeah, so, and um smart home, anything sort of connected home automation. I, that's sort of my realm. And also on the Twit network once a month on Tech News Weekly with Micah Always a lot of fun.

32:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Love having you on From Engadget Devinder Hardwar, who is going to CES. You're crazy man. Is CES still a?

33:01 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
thing. It's still a thing I mean I have not been since before the pandemic Really Sending smaller. I mean I have not been since before the pandemic Really but sending smaller teams Basically. I think a lot of sites have done this, but this year we're making a bigger push. It in gadget. I kind of miss seeing the new stuff that we need to write about for the following year. So, especially when it comes to TVs, other devices like laptops and stuff, it's nice to get a hold of these things.

33:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I can tell people if it's good or not, or interesting or not. Well, we'll talk about that when we come back. I think that's a. I'm glad to hear it's still around and Doc Rock, who is joining us from the Aloha State in beautiful Honolulu, where it is. Uh, you have an advantage in the advent of code. Do you realize that? You joined me last night as I was trying to solve the first problem which ships at midnight eastern, which, which means people who want to get on the leaderboard have to solve at midnight or or, if you're in the uk, at 4 am or something? Uh, it's not too bad here, 9 pm, but you're what?

34:00 - Doc Rock (Guest)
you're five hours ahead of three hours behind you, so three hours behind us it's like dinner time when it comes out yeah, it was like eight o'clock when you were jumping off last night, so I love that.

34:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I can cheat a little bit I'm gonna do that again tonight, 9 pm, pacific. I'll stream it on my channel, uh, and on youtube and so forth, because it's kind of I'm. I think it's kind of fun, it's risky for me, it's like going going around naked, it's like I may be a complete idiot. Watch and find out. Uh, doc, rock is at with ecamm. It's great to have you. And, of course, you have your own youtube channel, youtubecom doc rock, thank you, and you know it's funny.

34:39 - Doc Rock (Guest)
We just had this whole conversation about social media and what I've done for the last month was I basically made a video every day for 30 days and I'm wow unedited and unpolished and I wanted to be as natural as possible. That's my specialty, my, my gen x. People are starting to be afraid because they think they need to edit everything from watching the kids in these perfect videos and I'm like no man, we're we. We already passed all of that. We got blemishes we can't get rid of, so let's just be us and and share what we know.

35:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I've been making a lot of videos, super unedited and just I love that putting it into work and it's one of the reasons we do stuff live on twitter and I've always done stuff live on radio and tv to do the minimum amount of editing, to kind of let it all hang out. And I was looking back at the video I made last night I was thinking, boy, I should have. I would like to cut out that 20 minutes of wasted time. I would like to tighten that up, but no, we go out there, uh as we are doc rock at doc rock on uh youtube. He's a thinker, a creator, a maker. I'm you. I love that.

35:38 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
What a great slogan, very nice I love the unedited type of you know, because there's too much polish now in social media and YouTube, and I love it when it's the personalities and the connection that you can feel with when you're listening or watching someone. I mean, I've been listening to Twit for a long time and you know it was one of my first podcasts and you know it was one of my first podcasts and I just, you know, you really feel like you're listening to friends talk as opposed to watching TV or a radio show where it's produced and polished, and that sort of connection, I think, is something that social media, the Internet, has really helped Well.

36:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And there's another there's another side to that, I watch my son, who's a TikTok star and Instagram star. He's a YouTube cook and it kills you All of that editing to create all that content every day. It's just not tenable. The people who do that, a few years in they're burning out. It's just not good. So I've been in this for the long haul.

36:40 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, authenticity is so key. Authenticity makes things. Yeah, I agree.

36:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Makes the world go round. I appreciate it great to have you three very authentic people with us today on this week in tech. We'll go to ces in just a little bit, but first a word from our sponsor this week in tech, brought to you this week by netsuite. All right, I you know, I think probably some of you all right, I you know, I think probably some of you are in business. Right, you have a company and you probably wonder this future, this thing that's coming down the road at us. What is what is going to happen? Ask nine experts. You're gonna get ten answers. Rates are gonna go up, rates are gonna go down, inflation is gonna rise, inflation's gonna Can somebody just give me a crystal ball and get it done with? How about a magic eight ball?

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38:27
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39:21 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Wow, I know doing it right.

39:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's what you gotta do yeah and uh, I'm not sure I don't see a number, but uh, how many anthony do? How many people are watching right now on all those streams? Quite a number, I think. So, uh, be nice, be authentic and you know when you do it live. You don't get to edit it and I kind of like that ces. That couldn't, oh you can't, call it the consumer electronics show. Right, it comes from the consumer electronics association but it stands for nothing used to say for the consumer electronics show and I'm.

39:57
You know what, if you don't explain it that that's what it is, then you're. I mean, you got to say that. I don't know why the cea doesn't want us to say that anymore, but anyway, that's what. That's what it is. It is normally a show and has been around for 50 years, I think something like that normally show where electronics dealers would go to see what was coming from the manufacturers, that what they might be putting in their stores in the holidays at the end of the year. So they go, go in January to see what they might be ordering in October. That's also important to know because a lot of the things you see at CES are not yet products or won't be products until the end of the year. So you have to kind of look at everything with a grain of salt, or might never be products or very often might never if nobody orders them.

40:42 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
There's a lot of those.

40:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Remember the toilet paper robot?

40:48 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, Well, there's a lot of stuff people bring just to get attention, I think, just to get it, yeah.

40:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
In fact, I'll tell you the secret. They have these pre-show shows. Like Pepcom and Showstoppers, ces does their own, and the key is, if you want to get ahead of the game, you could buy a booth at ces, but better to buy a booth at these little mini shows. Better yet, buy a booth at the front door, because most local tv journalists are so freaking lazy. They'll get the video they need at the first two booths and then leave, and that's where the toilet paper robot was.

41:29 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Speed dating for tech journalism. That's what there's like pepcom and unveiled so.

41:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Devinder, you get, you're getting by now, uh, an avalanche, and probably you too, jennifer, of press releases.

41:41 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
PR getting ready for invites, like uh, I mean December just kicked off, so I'm going to be flying to New York in a bit to take some you know early meetings from companies.

41:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Were they actually. Oh, now they're doing it even before you go to Vegas.

41:53 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Oh, most definitely, Jennifer. Are you going to Vegas for CES?

41:56 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I will be there. Yes, it's been a big smart home show for the last well, pretty much since after the pandemic, since they reopened, the Smart Home used to be, the section used to be really really tiny. The first time I went, which was, I think, two years before the pandemic, and then last year it was almost the entire Venetian conference room, all Smart Home. I remember I think it was three years ago myself and our TV guy Chris Welch the Verge only sent sort of three or four of us this was the year after the pandemic and he went to the Las Vegas Convention Center, which is the big one, first, and I went to the Venetian, which is the small one because it's where the smart home was, and he messaged on our work Slack and he said the Samsung booth is really weird and I went. Like about half an hour later I went and was like the Samsung booth is awesome because it was all smart things.

42:56
No, TVs Wow he was like yeah, I know it was a big change, but yeah, for me that was exciting, for him not so much. He's like where are the TVs?

43:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
lg still had their big giant wall it used to be you're going in the north hall that first main entrance doors would open on the first day of the show and the crowds would pour in into the kind of the tv area and I can't remember. Was it lg, lg, somebody would have Sony, somebody would have maybe it's Panasonic, always this amazing that's LG it was at LG.

43:29 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I haven't been in years.

43:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I have to say I haven't been since 2020. The last CES I went to was the COVID CES, pre-covid CES Same, and I have to remind myself because at the time, the home automation pavilion because it was in the, it was in the south hall was just like a, an area. I always thought of it as like the tower of babel pavilion a bunch of technologies that don't talk with each other, don't relate to each other, that are destined to break your heart. Really, matters changed a little bit, that now at least there's an industry standard I I'm praying for.

44:05 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Matter stuff. It's something. I have such a mess without Matter and I'm like needing more and some of them I have. My OG Philip bulbs are finally starting to show the Hughes. You have Philip Hughes, yes.

44:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Philip Hughes, that shows you're an old timer.

44:19 - Doc Rock (Guest)
And I have new Philip Hughes mixed in and the problem is they don't kind of talk to each other. They, philip Hughes, mixed in, and the problem is they don't kind of talk to each other. They work on the hub when the hub feels like it. So I'm all in on anything matters. So I'm watching like a hawk for new stuff matter Cause it's time to change about 54 light bulbs in my house.

44:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Jennifer, matter was created by the big players I think Samsung was involved, google, apple. The idea was we admit we failed you Pretty much.

44:50 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
It only took 10 years for them to admit that yeah right, Samsung had smart things, which was kind of a nice.

44:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think. The idea was sort of like Matter to be kind of cross-platform, but nobody really achieved that. So Matter was supposed to solve this. Did it? Has it, Will it.

45:06 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
It has not, yet it has made progress. It is a protocol. Well, there's various protocols that work under Matter, so it's a software layer over thread and Wi-Fi and, like Bluetooth and Wi-Fi, it's going to take a while and it've only. It's been two years and they've made significant progress in two years. I would say Not fast enough progress for most of us, especially sorry, doc, for you and your hue bulbs, but there are a fair, there are a lot of devices out there now that work with Matter. It's just that Matter as a whole still has a lot of building to do before it's really ready for prime time.

45:49
The general consumer is not going to benefit really from Matter at the moment. I think when they first announced the first spec, which was two years ago, they said this is the start of a journey. Five to 10 years from now will be, will be where we want to be, and so I think you know, we've I, I buy. I would say I think five years is a good bet. So what are we in 20? We're about to go into 25, so 2030 in other words, don't hold your breath but.

46:25
But if you're interested now and if you're willing to take the time and the effort, put the effort in, you can go and buy bulbs that work, smart bulbs that work with matter, and that means they will work locally in your home, and that's one of the key elements. And actually this leads into a story we'll be discussing. But one of the problems we've had with IoT devices to date is because they're so dependent on the internet or so dependent on a cloud connection. You know you have problems when your light switch is a lot faster to use a light switch than it is to use, say, a voice command because of latency and lag. And Matter brings everything local.

47:07
There is still the potential. You can still use the cloud for the benefits that you might have from that, like updates or getting the weather for your smart sprinkler, but it all works locally in your home, so it should be. We're going to see a lot of benefit from that if you start adding Matter products now. It's just as the promise of Matter was you can be able to buy any device, plug it in or screw it in in your smart home and it will work with any platform and with any other device that also works with Matter. That promise is not really here yet. So we've got a ways to go for that.

47:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
How depressing. How long have they had?

47:48 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
they've had two or two years, I mean when? How long did it take? Bluetooth and wi-fi, I mean to be? It takes a while.

47:55 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
It takes a while it was a little faster for bluetooth and wi-fi it was at least five years. It took them five years from beginning to like getting somewhere.

48:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, so what happened to Zigbee Z wave? Uh, what was the? What was the one? Uh, the for the first home automation standard. What was it called? Where you'd buy all this stuff? It was Zigbee and Z wave up yeah when you were in the in the stereo store, doc Rock, uh oh, you know what I'm talking about.

48:26 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
You mean X1?

48:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No X1.

48:29 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, you're going way back.

48:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Way back, yes, but that was the same thing, though. It was a desire to have a standard that would allow you to control a variety of devices in your house, right?

48:40 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
So Zigbee is what is so. Zigbee is still there. Zigbee is the CSA the standards are all involved in matter. Which is what's interesting about it and why? Okay, 2013, my math was a bit off, because that's not five years from when they launched X10, sorry, not X1.

49:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
X10, sorry, x10, yes, I was, I was. No, you were halfway there, three quarters of the way. I was halfway there, two thirds of the way. I had it in my mind, but I was looking at the wrong.

49:09 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
But yes, x10 was the early days, and then we had Z-Wave and Zigbee, and Zigbee is the foundation of Thread. Thread is a similar uses the same protocol.

49:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I get the impression thread.

49:26 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Is a google radio thing? Right, it's. I have thread in my google devices. It began with the nest thermostat in fact right before nest was bought by google right so google inherited the foundations of thread. Um, and then what's? And it now? Thread is very much a popular protocol with apple and google, so they're really both pushing it forward. So thread is in all your home pods and in most of the Apple TVs, and also in the iPhones and in most of the new Macs as well.

49:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So lovely. It talks to nothing, but it's there well, it's just it's wonderful.

49:58 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
It's like the.

49:59 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
NFC chip in iPhones forever yeah, well, and we're seeing a lot. We're going to start to see a lot more interesting use cases for both Thread and the NFC chip and UWB, which is another radio protocol that we're seeing in a lot of smart home devices. We're going to be seeing really interesting use cases around those in the next year or so. There's the new standard, alero. That's been launched by the CSA, which is the organization behind MATA, which used to be the Zigbee organization. So they're building on existing protocols, so it's not starting from scratch. That's kind of where the hope is that this won't take quite as long.

50:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is technology designed to break your heart, technology that promises everything and gives you nothing, and the industry has desperately tried to make this work. What is it? Is it that you have competing interests that just can't work together?

50:58 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
That's what slowed down NASA.

51:00 - Doc Rock (Guest)
You know how the remake is never as good as the real, so this is a remake of VHS and beta and beta no, no, it's worse than that.

51:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's worse than that. It's as if you're really never as good as the real, my point stands this is no I that we've.

51:18 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
The problem has been, to some extent, that infighting, because so we got all the big companies came together to say we need to fix this. Like you said, leo, um, and you know, the idea being, if we fix this basic infrastructure for our homes, then more people will adopt smart home. Um, because it there was all these grand predictions that smart home would just really take off and it kind of plateaued because of the complexity. You really needed to be someone that was willing to be a sysadmin for your home in order to really benefit from home automation.

51:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, that's going to work. You know what? That is true, it's always so. I'm the sysadmin. If I die, lisa won't know how to turn on. Anything Like this is a bad way to do it.

52:06 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Well, this is yeah, and this is what they're trying to fix is make it this so that you don't have to worry about the back end, everything that. That's the point of matter. We're not supposed to know. What matter is in. Ultimately, it should just work just like we, most people don't really know what wi-fi is or bluetooth. They just know that their headphones pair to their smartphone or their tv streams.

52:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's a joke in there, something like does this back end make my network look big or something? I don't know. I'm sitting over here. Here's a Home Assistant green server. I've got HomeBridge running on my Synology. I've got 30 casetta switches Even the lights here these Elgato lights are on the wi-fi. Nothing works together. Nothing works together. It's all got its own app. It works with their own app, but not you know. And then apple has a temerity, put a bunch of buttons up on the screen representing this stuff, but it doesn't do anything. Google does the same thing. They each have their own home app. I think the tower of Babel has gotten worse.

53:06 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Oh, yeah, has it gotten better? I'll just say this is all a little disheartening. Like the smart home hype has been a thing since, like my first CES, which was 2010. Yeah, living through that whole era of it all. So now it's like, okay, they're figuring out, okay, we've got to really solve the whole background architecture thing. I think the still the missing point is what do you do with this technology? And I think for most people that doesn't matter. You know, I have friends who really, really love um, getting all the smart lights and changing their switches and everything, but if the thing you're changing is not as simple as just flipping on a light switch and or not, robust value if it works and then it stops working after all those things, all the things like then it is is kind of worthless to most consumers.

53:46
I think they still have not solved that problem. I think the one smart home thing that has been really cool for me is my Arlo cameras that are HomeKit compatible can show up on my Apple TV. That's kind of cool. I can hit a button and see where all my house cameras are and see around my house. But most people don't need that, so I'm still waiting for that like killer use.

54:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I would say energy management is going to be the killer feature. Yes, as it gets more expensive.

54:12 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Sure it's coming and that's what Matt is working on like super hard right now.

54:16
That's their main focus and that's why I think they've kind of failed to maybe pull up the really kind of core use cases, because they're really focused on the future, which is a problem with protocols, I think you know when they're like that, they look for a goal and then they may be rushing towards the goal rather than fixing the foundations.

54:34
But I'm hoping, I think it's hopeful, that we'll get there. But the energy management really feels like the use case that will appeal to the broader audience that matter was designed for. To make things simpler, they just added EVSEs, solar panels, water heaters, such to Matter and appliances, so that you are, in theory, you'll be able to connect any large energy device in your home to one platform through Matter and not have to worry about whether it works with home kit or if it works with this, this platform or that platform and whether you need to home bridge or home assistant. Um, home assistant is is, I think, got a really sort of interesting future in the smart home. I hope so. I like it streamline, make it a little easier because it's designed to be a layer on top of all of this, exactly, yeah so I live in northern california.

55:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Our local electric company has proposed its fifth rake height of the year. We have a we, so we got a one thousand dollar energy bill.

55:40 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Uh, this this month uh see, this is where you want the smart plugs.

55:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And that's the first thing I told Lisa is well, we have to figure out what is costing us. You know what's the thing that we need to turn off? Because I don't know, didn't you move your old studio?

55:56 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
in-house Leo, yeah, but I don't think it's that I turn off everything.

55:59 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I'm only on three days a week and I turn everything off at the end. I don't know. Yeah, tech is really low power, not like before.

56:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I think really what it is is the rate hikes, not, not us. I blame pg and e, not us, but I mean five rate hikes in one year I think people are feeling it like.

56:17 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I live in georgia and georgia power has a monopoly on, on everything here and uh with the Voxel nuclear plant, which took years to get online. They're like cool, it's online now. Your bill is now $30 higher to help Georgia Power pay for this nuclear power plant and you have no choice in it.

56:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You know you have no choice. That's basically the same. Here we have one place where we can get our electricity. Yeah, Same.

56:41 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Here we have HECO Hawaiian Electric yeah, um same, here we have uh hiko hawaiian electric, that's it, you got, you got, and I bet your rates are going up too, aren't they? Oh 100, oh man, it's crazy. You guys are relatively cheap. I think we're like 36 cents a kilowatt hour and I think we're one of what countries? Oh my god, we're pretty crazy. That's twice hilarious about this and I've totally understand. But like we live in a modernity era but my island loves to keep things old school because, you know, we kind of went burning bamboo for the power.

57:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What are you doing?

57:10 - Doc Rock (Guest)
no, guess what is every day in hawaii sunny. You know we have very little love, so you know what else is very in every day in hawaii windy is all. Yes, you know what they won't want to do no windmills because they look ugly and I'm like, but we're at damn near 40 cents a kilowatt hour.

57:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You know what would be really helpful.

57:29 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Solar panels. We have so many flat top roofs and we have so much places to put solar and we have you can do it in your home but, like a lot of you know, commercial establishments don't have. So when they built Targets here and Tar targets did like full roof, um, like completely sustainable buildings. Target's only been here about 10 years. Um, then people started paying attention because target was saving the grip, so it's starting to slowly come online.

57:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But yeah, yeah, it's insane this is another and a different story, but the power company here won't let you put in too much solar, because they don't want you competing with them yep yeah so you can't put in as much as you might use can you have a battery, though like? Yeah, we have. We have solar batteries, so in theory we could run off the grid.

58:19 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I haven't had to do that yet well, and this is where I think we're going to see and it's going to take a long time, um, because infrastructure and retrofitting this type of stuff into current homes is hard. But if this is where the smart home really starts, I mean, this is where the smart home started. A decade ago, when it had its resurgence with the nest thermostat, everyone was like, oh, this is great because I can save money on my electrical bill. So you know, I think that that is the use case saving money, convenience and security. Devinder mentioned the cameras and security. Home security is another.

58:56
You know, the home security industry has been completely upended by the smart home and the DIY aspect, you know, in terms of not needing to be locked into these monthly contracts for home professional monitoring. So there are areas where there are strong use cases. But the whole concept of your lights turning on when you walk in the room and the shades lowering when you say movie time those are the conversations that a lot of tech journalists will have about this stuff, because it's fun and cool, but it's the core benefit to our homes and our infrastructure that I think we're going to find connecting and interoperability and having this sort of local connection in our homes so that our homes can basically diagnose problems for us, manage our energy, for us look after, after you know, the systems in our homes to save us money. That's where it's not the sexy side of the smart home, but it's the important side yeah, that's interesting.

59:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, because I think I always think about. What I really want is to be able to talk to my house and say hey, good morning.

01:00:00 - Doc Rock (Guest)
when Dev said it was like early 2010s or whatever, I'm like yo man, me and Leo watched the Jetsons when we were kids. This stuff was supposed to happen a long time ago. So, like I've been on this since the Jetsons and it still don't work, micah had talked about this sensor maybe like a week ago and I can't remember the name of it, but it's supposed to be a really good sensor that, when you walk in the room, it had better false detections at the akara fp2, so it uses millimeter wave.

01:00:29
Yes, that's wow. All right, that's yeah, I'm gonna buy that right now, while we're talking, before I forget.

01:00:33 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
That's really cool yeah, it's a really really difficult device to set up and don't use it if you have ceiling fans, but but it is fun if you can get it to work. Because the idea being it'll just know exactly where you are in the room.

01:00:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Technology designed to break your heart. It just wants to take you, get your hopes up, slap you around, throw you to the ground. Sorry, we don't do that anymore. Um, all right, so we will watch from ces your reports. Jennifer pattison tooey on the verge. Davindra, what are you going to be looking at at ces this year?

01:01:15 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
oh, I'm all. I'm all about the screens. I miss going to see those glorious screens and especially, I know we want to talk a little bit about black friday. Um, this has been a crazy year for TVs Like I am watching OLED prices fall to like rock bottom prices. A 77-inch OLED from both Samsung and LG under $1,500. Wow, just wild, like what we're seeing out there.

01:01:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Are theirs considered still to be the best screens?

01:01:42 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Definitely, or maybe the. Qd OLEDs would be a little bit better but qd oled, which I believe is the the newer panels from uh, from sam. I have a samsung qd oled yeah and basically, if you want an oled, samsung or lg at this point, are great, but I paid twice that I think yes, 77 inch samsung qd oled.

01:01:59
In 2017, I paid 1900 for a 55-inch OLED, so you know the prices have just gone way down. I bought my dad one on sale, like last year as well. Like that is a great size for a lot of living rooms. 65 inches is like the bare minimum for most living rooms now too, and you can get that for $1,000 on an OLED.

01:02:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And this is just the benefit of a larger market and more manufacture and improve manufacturing technologies. I think so.

01:02:27 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I think that's mostly it. Like, the scale of producing this stuff has gone down. Also, this is the time to upgrade because if the tariff nonsense happens next year, like everything, is going to be more expensive. So if you were even on the edge of like making a big purchase like this, now is probably the time to do it.

01:02:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Black Friday sales, or do you?

01:02:46 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
There are also super bowl sales usually monday, cyber monday, sales, like it's ongoing until next week.

01:02:51 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Basically okay um, yeah, we actually on the verge. We had a. You know we do deals posts about things. You know, like I do a smart home deals post and we had a. We had a tariffs deals post, oh suppose.

01:03:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Go buy these things.

01:03:06
That's a great idea actually, if you're thinking about buying these things, buy them now, just in case I think saner heads will prevail because, you know, tim Cook was able to talk Trump out of tariffs in 2017 by saying look, if you put a big tariff at the time, it was only a 25% tariff on Chinese imports if you put a big tariff on the iPhone, you're just helping Samsung. You're hurting an American company and helping Samsung and I think every CEO saw that that because it worked, saw that that worked and will go to the Trump administration and say you're just helping the other guys. It's not going to do what you think it's going to do the other guys. It's not gonna.

01:03:44 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
it's not gonna do what you think it's gonna do. Um, that's a, that's a hope. It's a big hope, leo, like it's gonna be very, a little different this time around. They did implement tariffs around, like farming right and farmers in the first trump administration. It devastated um farmers across america too.

01:03:57 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
So there is evidence well, and in the smart home we saw significant price prices on a lot of devices over the last year or so because it was the knock-on effect from the tariffs from the first Trump administration. So I've had a number of companies I've spoken to have already sort of said well, we're not sure on pricing yet for this product next year because we're waiting to see what the tariffs will do. So you know it, it's definitely we will feel an impact pretty quickly in the, in the smart home, because almost everything you buy tech wise now, especially from my home.

01:04:33
Yeah, it's coming from china, or you know, there are some. I mean, there's there's a bit of diversification. Since the last round of tariffs, I think we've seen some like a lot more taiwanese um manufacturing. Uh, but yeah, we're gonna. The industry is definitely bracing for it, whether it happens or not. Um, but also any excuse to be able to raise the prices. So we may see it whether, whether they're a terrorist or not.

01:04:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, that's a good point. We saw them do that with uh inflation.

01:05:01 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
They said, oh good, you know yeah, the eggs, which was apparently a big voter, like a decision factor I saw a comic up to the egg. What?

01:05:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
is it with eggs? Are people eating? How many eggs are people eating? Are they eating a dozen eggs?

01:05:14 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
yeah, they have gotten more expensive. I think it's a, it's a jump that people notice, but also it was corporate greed, folks, it's corporate greed in the studio yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:05:20 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I was like there's no bill you can pass this.

01:05:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Chicken's had their hands out or what. I guess it would there be their claws out for a pay raise big, big poultry.

01:05:29 - Doc Rock (Guest)
They just got us big poultry.

01:05:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, we live in the chicken capital of america, petaluma, and, uh, the law says everybody's allowed to have their own chickens, and I would love a chicken yeah, yeah, I have.

01:05:43 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I had 17. What?

01:05:45 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Recently. Yeah, what happened? My boss raises chickens. It's best Free eggs.

01:05:49 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, it's amazing. I don't know what happened. Yeah, it's been. I think we've had a little disease going through, so it's been a sad few days. Oh no, yeah, but I have. I love my chickens. I've been raising chickens for almost a decade now.

01:06:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You had 70?. Now, one of the things that happens with chickens is they can be a little smelly and messy. I saw a chicken coop that you roll around. You bring it to different parts of the property. Yeah, that's great.

01:06:21 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I'm testing two smart coops right now, and one of them you can lift up A smart coop oh my God.

01:06:24 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Coops right now, and one of them you can lift up A smart coop oh my God yeah.

01:06:26 - Doc Rock (Guest)
So, jennifer, this is funny, you say that. So my boss, katie. She's the director of marketing at Ecamm. Last year, this time she lost all her chickens because the smart coop thing, the chicken, blocked the sensor One of the furry ones that are dumb.

01:06:44 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
It blocked the sensor. What kind?

01:06:45 - Doc Rock (Guest)
of dumb and the raccoons was like, hey, you left the door open and the raccoons just went in, so they rebuilt. They did what you talk about moved the coop, rebuilt it and made it without the smart door. The husband's an engineer, so he fixed the smart door and now it's all working.

01:07:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We have a cat door that understands the chip in the cat and will not let another animal in.

01:07:07 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, that's smart.

01:07:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's probably the same technology, though, except you can't block it.

01:07:12 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, I don't know how. Was it a light sensor? I wonder how they managed to block it.

01:07:17 - Doc Rock (Guest)
But yeah, I don't know whatever happened but she lost all her tickets in one day and her little girl was gutted.

01:07:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh no kidding.

01:07:25 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Give her an opportunity to explain to her, and which is good, and again, yeah, it's about life and death.

01:07:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think we should ban death for children under 16. Should not ever have to experience that.

01:07:36 - Doc Rock (Guest)
So let's just Well, in Australia, it turns out Rupert Murdoch says nobody.

01:07:42 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
It's funny how much of this conversation is about surviving the future. Right, it's just, you gotta have your own power, gotta keep your own power, get a power raise your own chickens, you're building the max, mad max future, because that's where we're headed and we just can't avoid it.

01:07:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, do you have a well? And, uh, well water. And then let's see what else do we need? We got the batteries, so you can a cow maybe cow.

01:08:04 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Keep the dairy going?

01:08:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No really we should be teaching children basic butchering techniques. I think that's probably true. Like maybe in eighth grade you could learn how to slaughter a pig.

01:08:15 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Well, you know, they have 4-H.

01:08:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean, that is something that they do teach kids that live in the farmlands. I just buy 50-pound sacks of beans and I'm going to live on that. I did have a 50 pound sacks of beans and I I'm gonna live on that. I did have a 50 pound sack of corn, but something got into it and that was no good oh, and you want too big, yeah, yeah, what did you have?

01:08:31 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
a? 50 pound sack of corn for leo I thought maybe I don't know you were really prepared for the end no, it was okay.

01:08:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I have a problem. I I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I buy things on instagram. In the middle of the night and I saw yeah, you too. Yeah, I saw a. Uh, I thought this is great. Uh, a way to homemade tortillas. A tortilla turns out it's like an antique tortilla press, and then you make your own masa. So I got the mortar and the pestle, but then you need corn. So I why I bought a 50 pound sack of corn tortillas are so cheap leo, they're so cheap you don't have to do this.

01:09:12
It's not rational. I'm saying it's three in the morning and I'm not rational anyway, they should ban social media for those over six yeah, that's true.

01:09:20 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Let's lock down social media purchases after midnight I'm like a gremlin don't.

01:09:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Media purchases after midnight I'm like a gremlin.

01:09:30 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Don't feed me after midnight. All right, let's take a break. Instagram now is selling random what they're calling like this new innovation, but they're like japanese appliances. That's been out in japan forever. Oh, that's a big thing yeah I keep seeing so many of them on ig and I'm like bro, that is not new tech. What are you talking about?

01:09:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
but is it good?

01:09:46 - Doc Rock (Guest)
it's good stuff, but it's just hilarious, how like, oh, we invented this thing, and then they always call it like uh hibachi and I'm like that's yakitori, son, that's not.

01:09:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
How about you?

01:09:58 - Doc Rock (Guest)
they're not even oh, I love yakitori related. They're different and it's like oh, you guys, at the japanese major I lose my mind and all of the mislabeled I bought this internet gum, this instagram gum, because it's made by hand it's, a guy makes it by hand and it's the hardest little balls of gum.

01:10:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You just really don't, you don't really taste the hand grease it says it's good for you. It's really, it's remineralizing your teeth, but I don't know I shouldn't buy this stuff on instagram. That's really the wow moral of that one.

01:10:27 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
We're really seeing the social media dangers right now.

01:10:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, see, see, ban that stuff. Um all right. So tvs.

01:10:35 - Doc Rock (Guest)
And you, doc, you used to work in a stereo store, used to sell tvs used to be like three thousand dollars for uh, not such a good we originally sold plasma, the maran they were 10 grand plasmas for like 20 grand yeah, and then they got down under 10 and I remember people coming to our store standing goes I can't wait till they get under 10 grand, then maybe I'll think about it. Yeah, and then it was like, well, I can't wait till they get under five and now you can go to best buy. Buy tv for 75 bones.

01:11:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's amazing and you and you don't want a plasma tech tv bought seven or eight, uh, of those ten thousand dollar plasmas. They were only 55 inches, they may not even have been that big and they burnt in almost instantly because they were always on tech tv, so the tech tv bug was always on the screen and they burnt in like that. I I mean instantly.

01:11:23 - Doc Rock (Guest)
So, leo, I got in trouble because we had this like $15,000 Philips and it was in the front of our store, uh-oh. And back then there was this weird off like kind of cable company that flew by night. Spectrum ended up buying them. But you guys were on that company, it was different from Spectrum at the time. Well, it wasn't Spectrum, it was Oceanic spectrum at the time. Well, it wasn't spectrum. Here was oceanic cable, which was my car, and I used to watch tech TV all day long in the store. And my mom got so mad one day she tells me TV, she goes what is this weird? You're always watching that computer stuff and now this TV is broken and I was like now we're just gonna play foam, foam on it. You know, there you go, you go, it'll be, it'll go away and it works. But yeah, yeah, literally I used to just watch. Call for help, thank you, thank you, thank you, doctor. Before I was even zd net, whatever it was prior to.

01:12:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Before it was zdtv in 1998, and then it became tech tv a couple of years later.

01:12:24 - Doc Rock (Guest)
and then it became tech TV a couple of years later, and then it became nothing a couple of years after that I used to TV with them when I wasn't going to be at the store, and then I would just watch it in the store all day when we had no customers and mom used to get so mad at me.

01:12:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
People apparently were worried about the tariffs because Black Friday I think Black Friday always hits a record Online sales $74.4 billion dollars. That was up five percent over last year. This comes, this information comes from adobe, which weirdly keeps track of all this. Uh, total online thanksgiving sales 33 billion people are buying stuff on thanksgiving, don't want to have to talk to their family probably.

01:13:06
You know, what I think that is. One thing I don't like about social is that everybody's sitting at the table and I bet it even happened at Thanksgiving looking at their phone. Right, you've got to institute some rules, though Phone's down.

01:13:18 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Get rid of the phones.

01:13:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Don't be buying stuff on Black Thursday.

01:13:28 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Black Friday is just a whole month now.

01:13:29 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Yeah, it is, it is. Yeah, I mean it literally started over.

01:13:31 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Yeah, there were some good deals, though the macbook air is this is a fight in our house.

01:13:37 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I always rebel against the phone down rule because I never have that problem. And what they are like, well, that's because you can entertain them, because I'm the phone call right. So when the kids are around me they ain't on their phone, they're hanging out with me because you're entertaining yeah, cuz entertaining the kids, so like I wouldn't, I don't have to make that rule.

01:13:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm gonna admit to something or the rule.

01:14:00 - Doc Rock (Guest)
How about you figure out how to have conversation? Or interest or they want to talk back to you more interesting. Stop blaming the phone. I'm just really mad at people blaming the phone for everything and I'm like it's people, it's people what I do.

01:14:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
People problem is I sit there blatantly not looking at my phone while everybody around me is looking at their phone and I just go I literally get energy suck energy from the fact that I am the only one like I'm. See, I'm a good person. I'm not looking at my phone. You're looking at your phone, but not me. Adobe said more than half of all the online spending was done on mobile devices. That's crazy. That's up 12 from last year.

01:14:41 - Doc Rock (Guest)
No surprise, jim was right people don't want to talk to their families, so they went therapy retail therapy I know, I think amazon is my husband's favorite social network, because yeah sure he spends all his time on tell him about instagram.

01:14:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Tell him about three mms instagram.

01:14:57 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
You'll love it no, I'm not getting him anywhere near it.

01:15:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You get all sorts of weird stuff and then you forget you ordered it and it comes in the mail and you're going what the hell is this? What was this.

01:15:09 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Leo, instagram for us is that used to be late night, 10 pm, after assing on TV stuff.

01:15:14 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Yes, that's what it is. That's what we're. I never fell for that.

01:15:18 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
That's the funny thing. I didn't fall for the Ron Cove. There was more friction, much more friction. To buy that?

01:15:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, that's right, and if it supports Apple Pay, all the better, because then I don't even have to do anything.

01:15:31 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Oh yeah, dude the shop app is dangerous. My husband was like oh, this deal on this thing we want to get our daughter for Christmas, we need to buy it now, right, because it's Friday. Like, am I not understanding Black, black Friday? I'm like dude, we've got like weeks that just keep going until, like yeah, december, january here's an interesting change.

01:15:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I thought Adobe said traffic to real retail sites from AI chat bots was up by 1800 percent because nobody was using them.

01:16:04 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I understand, but what it means is somebody is using them. No one was using them.

01:16:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I understand, but what it means is somebody is using them. In fact, they did a survey and found out uh 20 said they were going to the ai chat bot and asking for recommendations and deals yeah so amazon has a chrome plug-in now will automatically search all the sites, right.

01:16:21 - Doc Rock (Guest)
So if you're looking for something, it will go and it will get all the articles from engadget and the verge and wire cutter and anywhere else and it gives it to you in a straight line and it tells you like these people said x and then so you can build your research off of that we're probably triple the referral links that those likes need.

01:16:37 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Have you used rufus the amazon?

01:16:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
ai, have you used rufus? Rufus?

01:16:43 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
no I just rufus, it's fine have you, is it?

01:16:46 - Doc Rock (Guest)
it's I'm clearing rufus isn't responding it's super dumb. Yeah, I tried. I wanted to know if the gobi lights that I have back here, because I'm starting to like this company. They seem to be a little bit more.

01:17:00 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I love everybody, and they work with mata too, so that was my question and doofus wouldn't answer me. I was doing that while you were talking rufus is a strange name really, yeah, it's always gonna be doofus for me now, yeah, well, because you can't be rufus.

01:17:21 - Doc Rock (Guest)
that's ch Chaka Khan.

01:17:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's the thing I was going to say Chaka Khan, chaka Khan, you're stepping into my world now Amazon.

01:17:28 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
You've got the curtain lights back there. Those are looking good yeah.

01:17:32 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I turned it into a spectrum analyzer. The problem is the mic. No matter how I fix it, is still a little too sensitive.

01:17:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So when I stop talking it still will pick up the random air noise, but I like the idea of that spectrum is working, you're saying that those lights

01:17:50 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
are triggered. Oh my god, they are, they're triggered by your voice.

01:17:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh my god, we know what to get, leo for Christmas they're on sale on Black Friday right now for you can actually

01:18:02 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
get your. You could put the twit bug on the you can like you can, you can make it, you can put whatever you want on any kind of emoji or I can't design doc did it first and I can't copy.

01:18:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, you, I didn't see nothing. I'm not worried about you. Everybody else is gonna say you're copying doc. I don't wanna.

01:18:19 - Doc Rock (Guest)
That's not good, all right let's take a break your hair, if I could finest badger wool.

01:18:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's the key. You know. Gotta get it from australian badgers. Uh, we have a great panel, don't we? Huh, doc rocks here, jennifer pattison, tooey, devinder hardewar I'm sorry I got ahead of the switcher. Uh, thanks for joining us. We appreciate it. Our show today, brought to you by bit warden did.

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01:22:48
Oh, it's time for more government, more courts. Let's see, I'm going to spice it up and start with Elon. What do you say? So, elon Musk? I just love the guy. He's decided. You know this open AI, which he, by the way, helped found and left in a huff when, when they said we're not going to sell it to you and let you run it.

01:23:11
Uh, he has decided he has his own ai, now grok ai, that open ai is too and doing too well. So he. He filed for injunctive relief from the courts saying uh, you can't let them go nonprofit Because they're discouraging investors from backing rivals like my company, xai. Can you do that? Can you sue somebody for competing with you? The motion was filed late on Friday. The motion was filed late on friday. Uh, it accuses sam altman, greg brockman, microsoft and linkedin co-founder and former open ai board member reid hoffman, plus d templeton, former open ai board member, of various illicit activities and seeks to halt them. You should not be discouraging investors from backing uhAI's rivals. You know what, if somebody comes and says I want to do podcast advertising, I tell them don't go to those other guys, come to us. That's called business Benefiting from wrongfully obtained, competitively sensitive information through OpenAI's connections with Microsoft. This all sounds like sour grapes. The big whiny baby.

01:24:25 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I mean like sour grapes, the big whiny baby, I mean, he's a big whiny baby like, okay, can you do? That is the thing I've been saying about Elon Musk for the past. I know that's his campaign. Can you truck? Can you to other states to campaign? They don't know what, what a guy. And now he he is firmly in place, so maybe he feels more protected now that he can do this sort of thing so for months years probably we've been posting uh on x.

01:24:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Uh, you know when the new podcast comes out, we post a link to the podcast on x. Turns out we were wasting our time. Elon musk says yeah, uh, we don't want any outbound links in tweets or whatever you call them now skeets, zeets, whatever. Uh, it started when paul graham uh, who's the founder of y, commoner, a combinator said the depra. This was uh, right before thanksgiving. The deprioritization of tweets with links in them is twitter's biggest flaw. It bothers me more than all the new right-wing trolls trolls I'm used to, but what draws me to twitter? Just find out what's going on. You can't do that without links. Elon says well, dude, that's lazy linking. Just write a description in the main post and put the link in the reply problem solved, problem solved.

01:25:43 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
You should you should scroll up on that story, Leo, because that is just the perfect Elon face that I want to want to punch.

01:25:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, they always. You know, it's so fun.

01:25:50 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
They always, they always.

01:25:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Elon has been so cooperative with all of the publications. Getty has a variety of of embarrassing images you can use in your posts.

01:26:03 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Well, the interesting sort of follow on from this is how much traffic websites, news sites in particular, have seen since the giant surge of blue sky following the election. Because blue sky is like what Twitter was in terms of the links. You know, if you want to just go for the news or find interesting links that have been shared in your community to keep up on the news, find interesting links that have been shared in your community to keep up on the news, you can do that blue sky now and you haven't been able to do it at twitter for a while. I mean so x for a while I did.

01:26:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean, I guess we kind of knew this, but it does mean that our marketing department has been spending a lot of time creating posts that no one has seen we've done this for years yeah, yeah, do you tell your engagement marketing department, don't bother posting links.

01:26:48 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I mean, I have no clue what happens there. We have a whole social media side of thing, but in general Twitter engagement for media platforms has not been very good. Like for the past, even pre-Elon it was never very good. The people never really saw much traffic referral from Twitter.

01:27:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And now it's just like like, oh, you've just made it worse. So now people are going to blue sky, which is much smaller, but serenity does the same thing. I should point out, meta also deprioritizes news links because they don't want to.

01:27:13 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
They don't want to get involved well, they want, they want you to stay in their platform that's the real reason x wants you to stay on their platform, on its platform. Instagram and threads wants you to stay in its platform. They don't. That's why I mean instagram's never allowed links right, so you've never been able to link out.

01:27:28
That's right um link in bio link in bio um it's. It's this sort of oh the news. Being a news source is not what these platforms want to be, although I think a lot of people still use social media as a new source, so there's kind of a real push and pull there.

01:27:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I mean that's what X really was was kind of a feed of what's happening in the world in the zeitgeist. Now, without links, it's kind of much less useful. By the way, I blame you for this. You said show this picture of Elon. And what I didn't realize this is hysterical, I guess, because remember I told you we're using a Mac in the cloud for Ecamm.

01:28:08
That Mac has reactions turned on and thought Elon was, so we got the two thumbs up reaction, not in the podcast, just on the discord, because I guess that's what's feeding the discord.

01:28:23 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
So that's, I didn't even think that could happen. That's a weird issue for that that's funny, let me do it again.

01:28:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, let's just see, if it happens.

01:28:32 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Yeah somebody's okay thumbs up.

01:28:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What do you get?

01:28:36 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
fireworks, yeah yeah, yeah, my daughter loves that when I, when I facetime in, yeah, wow you know, people were saying this the other day.

01:28:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're saying stop doing the thumbs up, you're getting fireworks. I said no, I'm not, but apparently on some platforms, thanks to there being a mac in there- yeah.

01:28:54 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Yeah, he's smart, but not too smart, especially right now.

01:28:59 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, uh anyway, the open ai angle that is kind of interesting in here. I think that elon probably does have a leg to stand on is this shift from being a not-for-profit and we're going to make this better for the world to oh, hang on, we've just realized we can all make an awful lot of money here.

01:29:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I mean, if you want to follow the saga, it's a long and tattered story. The original structure was there would be a nonprofit. That's the way Elon and I think Sam Altman and the other founders originally configured it. But they realized quickly that you can't be nonprofit because it costs so much to train these LLMs. You have to make money, or at least raise money. So then they did something weird. They had kind of split it in two. There was a nonprofit and a for-profit arm, and now they just want to eliminate the nonprofit arm.

01:29:49 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Because the for-profit arm was like revenue limited for some reason too. So that was the whole thing, you know. This all reminds me. There's some great conversations happening on Blue Sky right now, and one thing that I keep seeing is that people are saying, if we take Sam altman at his word right, that they want to stop agi or whatever, because of what they're building. Why aren't we hunting him for sport? Why aren't we sending people to stop him right now?

01:30:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
because you're you're the danger, ai people you're telling the terminator yeah, came back to stop sam altman all along.

01:30:22
He told us, he told us, he's yeah, he's doing it, so come with me if you want to live. Uh-huh, that's interesting. I yeah, I mean okay, so really just between us, it's just the four of us, no one's listening. How many people, how many of you think that we really will, at some point in our lifetimes, uh, have a machine that's like you could talk, like Hal, that you could talk to like it's AGI, like it's smart? Is that likely?

01:30:49 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I mean, there's a lot of things. We don't know what's possible, but I don't think it's going to be within the timeline these folks are saying Because, like, since I was in high school, I've been reading Michio Kaku and Ray Kurzweil and those folks, and I think a lot less of them now, after seeing their predictions and seeing where we are. But 50, 100 years, sure, maybe.

01:31:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I've interviewed both of them many times.

01:31:07 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I've interviewed Michio, yeah.

01:31:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And it's one of those. Those are the guys who like it's gonna, and it's gonna be amazing and, yeah, I don't know, what do you think, Jennifer, we're gonna, you're gonna be able to? Is your daughter gonna be talking to a little? You know AI buddy.

01:31:27 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Like Clara and the Sun.

01:31:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, like Clara and the Sun Great book.

01:31:30 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, Great book, Wonderful book. I don't think we are as close to AGI as people would have us believe and I also don't necessarily see as much benefit from AGI, Especially from my space. We've seeing an awful lot of push of oh, this has got AI. We've had AI in the smart home since Alexa, but it wasn't really AI. But I think ASI artificial specific intelligence Ooh, I've never heard that term.

01:31:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I like that.

01:31:59 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
May be the more what we're going to see in our lifetime. That really does change things that you know very specific it's. It's the difference between, like, rosie the robot and roomba the vacuum. It's like whether we have, you know, one omniscient being in our home that can do everything for us, or whether we have specific agents that are helping us do different things.

01:32:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Those feel safer yes to me um unless the specific thing they do is launch atomic weapons, but other than that why? Do we build the atomic, you know, smart home yeah, yeah, just depends on what they, what their skills are. But you know, I have a little ai that helps me uh code and it's quite good and it doesn't. It doesn't steer me wrong and it works quite well and doesn't hallucinate, and it has no, because I told this specifically.

01:32:49
I said don't say, don't make up anything that you don't know, that you don't see in the documents that I gave you.

01:32:54 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, I mean do we need what? We're all tech geeks, we were all sci-fi fans. You know. We love the idea of the star trek computer or how and this kind of concept that we grew up reading about or watching TV, and these are exciting ideas. But what's actually most useful? Is it the way Apple intelligence summarizes my text messages? Or is it the way my robot vacuum can intelligently learn how to clean my floors? What do we need? What do we want? What's the benefit that we're looking for here? And I think that's the important question to ask, rather than let's create God.

01:33:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That just doesn't seem like a good idea. Let me complicate this. I said before we die, but I know because there's an app, uh, that tells me that I'm gonna die. This is uh. See, if I close my eyes, you can focus on this. It says leo's gonna die sunday, march 17th at least it's st patrick's day 2041 at the age of 84 save the date.

01:34:00 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I hate this app so much, it's so stupid. It only costs you 40 a year for it to make up a day you're gonna well, that's the thing, and you know they has a three-day trial.

01:34:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I did the three-day trial, but I have to remember to cancel, because what it does is you go through the whole questionnaire and then it says now do you want to know, because you're gonna have to pay. And it was. I pissed me off. That was really ridiculous. Now it did say and this I think, the use of it with better habits I could live to age 90, but I've got to have links?

01:34:32 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Doesn't this like? Scan your like fitness date, fitness data and health tracking?

01:34:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's not that good.

01:34:37 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
It's a questionnaire that you go through and I thought I'd heard about some kind of connection that the fitness apps had to something that can do this.

01:34:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, that's inevitable, right? This is just a matter of time. Push you towards, yeah.

01:34:51 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I saw this when I was doing some scrolling not talking to my family on Thanksgiving and I just scrolled right past. No thanks.

01:34:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Somebody in the Discord, pats, says that is so dumb. Is there anything Leo won't buy? That's true.

01:35:06 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
When did you see the ad for this app, Leo? At what time I?

01:35:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
saw an article this morning and I said, oh, I got to try that. Yeah, I actually had done this before. There's a free questionnaire that you can do on a website. Let me see if I can find it. I think it's called Living to be 100 or something like that. It's basically the same questionnaire and it's for free, so really, that'd probably be better for you to do that instead of uh instead of what I did.

01:35:33
I didn't have ai in the title. Yeah, yeah, that's true, this has ai in the title. That's pretty cool, man. Um, all right, I've frozen all my screens here, so I think it's time for me to take a pause and figure out what's going on as we continue with this episode episode 1008 of this week in tech with our great panel, jennifer pattison. Huey, uh, tooey too. Is that a bird?

01:36:03 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Tui.

01:36:04 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I like.

01:36:04 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Huey Tui. Tui is a very old Irish name. I got it from my husband. It's very difficult to spell and pronounce, which is why my other social media is JP2E the number two, the letter E, Tui's.

01:36:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Tui oh, I like that.

01:36:19 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
But yeah, very old Irish name. And then also a beer in australia. Oh, really, tooey beer. Oh, there may be a bird that's. I don't know about the bird I'd like to know about the bird, there's a toe, toey, toey.

01:36:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Anyway, it's a wonderful name and we're so glad to have you, doc rock, who also has a good name and lives it his life.

01:36:39 - Doc Rock (Guest)
You should have somebody named apple in your family, so they could be apple tooey, apple tooey I yeah, gwyneth paltrow, stole that name.

01:36:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't think anyone else is gonna use it now, she did, she did and, according to instagram, her daughter apple is looking quite lovely, by the way, I might point out.

01:36:57 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Uh oh, my cat's coming, so that's another reason I thought that was anthony's cat, it sounds I thought it was my cat come here.

01:37:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Come here, samantha. You can't meet see cats. It was my cat. What do you want? Come here. Come here, Samantha. You can't meet See cats. Won't do what you tell them Are you on air yeah.

01:37:11 - Doc Rock (Guest)
She just wants to be annoying. Cats are designed to AI. That would be the best thing for humanity. Is cats designed to AI because it won't do anything?

01:37:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think you could get an AI that was as smart as a cat. The brain was as smart as a cat. The brain is the size of a walnut.

01:37:30 - Doc Rock (Guest)
What, how hard would it be to have an ai that is as smart as a cat? Not that you'd want that. We bought her a water so she likes to drink out of the feed them.

01:37:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
She likes to drink out of the uh, the little faucet on the shower.

01:37:40 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
She likes that so we bought her a fountain won't go near it.

01:37:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
She has her own personal kitty fountain. She won't go near it. And now she's just going to stand there at my door going but not respond to it. Oh, here she comes, come on. Yeah, I have a bed for her. I've got it in my studio. I have a bed ready, waiting and able for her. I've got it in my studio, I have a bed ready, waiting and able for her.

01:38:08 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Look at that. That company perk is. Anthony's cat is in there.

01:38:11 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I know there's another one there.

01:38:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's what gave me the idea. Tiberius is in the bed, just been sitting there, oh come on, not the Tiberius.

01:38:18 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I love it and you're my hero now, isn't?

01:38:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
that a great name that's because anthony's always thinking about the roman empire yeah, come here, sammy, come here, you could be on tv.

01:38:29
She says it's not tv, it's a podcast. I know better our show today. Anyway, great to have you and davinder hardwar from engadget. Wonderful, have you? Our show today brought to you by experts exchange? Actually, this is cool. We were talking about ai. Will ai ever be as smart as a human? Guess who is as smart as a human Humans?

01:38:47
Imagine a network of trustworthy, talented tech professionals where you could go, ask questions, get no snark, but just good information, industry insights, advice, how-tos from people who are actually using the products in your stack, instead of asking some dumb AI or, worse, paying for expensive enterprise-level tech support. Experts Exchange is the tech community for people tired of the AI sellout. Experts Exchange is ready to help carry the fight for the future of human intelligence. It's a human community with human answers. You'll get access to professionals in over 400 different fields. I'm talking coding, microsoft, aws, azure, devops, cisco, whatever it is you need to know and, unlike other places, there's no snark. Duplicate questions are encouraged. You've been to the sites where they go. Oh, that question was already asked in 2002, so we're not going to answer it or, worse, you could do it that way, but I think you should do it this way. No, the contributors at Experts Exchange are actually nice people, a community you want to be a part of Tech junkies who love graciously answering all questions.

01:40:00
People have realized that the real benefit to becoming an expert is paying it forward, is helping other people with your own expertise. One member said I never had GPT. Stop and ask me a question before that happens on EE. All the time, experts Exchange all the time. They're proudly committed to fostering a community where human collaboration is fundamental. The Experts Directory is full of experts to help you find what you need, including experts who listen to our shows. I know Rodney Barnhart, who is a Security Now listener happens to be a VMware V expert and he's glad to answer your questions. Or the well-known ethical hacker, edward von Billion. There are Cisco design professionals. You can even get executive advice. They're executive IT directors and more.

01:40:47
Here's the other thing that's very important. Other platforms let's be honest betray their contributors. X does it, linkedin does it, reddit does it by selling the content, the content, your hard-earned content. You put there to train AI models, not experts. Exchange. Your privacy is not for sale. They stand against the betrayal of contributors worldwide. They have never and will never sell your data, your content, your likeness. They block and strictly prohibit AI companies from scraping content from their site to train their LLMs, and the moderators strictly forbid the direct use of LLM content in the threads.

01:41:24
You're getting real answers from real humans. It's a community. You can't. A robot doesn't give you community. Humans do. Experts deserve a place where they can confidently share their knowledge without worrying about a corporation stealing it to increase shareholder value, and humanity deserves a safe haven from AI.

01:41:45
It's experts exchange and I think it's so cool. I want you to try it right now, for free, for the next three months. No credit card required, just create an account, ask your questions, browse e-ecom slash Twitter. It's really a great place. It's been around for years. I used it years ago. Often would go there to get answers to questions on the Tech Guy Show and I, when they called us, I said you guys are still around. I love experts exchange. We thank them so much for supporting the show. You support the show, by the way.

01:42:21
Uh, when you go there and use the special url so that they know you saw it here e dash e dot com slash twitter. You know they've been around for a while. They got a three letter dot com slash Twitter. You know, they've been around for a while. They got a three letter dot com TLD. Those are, those are not easy to come by.

01:42:42
Uh, oh I, but with one more X story which I think is kind of telling. Uh, you remember, the onion bought Info Wars, right, and the onion, which is great, that's the Alex Jones Channel where he was, you know, railing against everybody. He lost a one and a half billion dollar lawsuit to the Sandy Hook family because he said it never happened. They were all actors and such lies from the onion. Because they prefer that the onion get the info wars site and ip and vitamins than this other company that was bidding for it. That was essentially a, you know, a shadow company created by info wars to buy it back.

01:43:27
However, there's a little fly in the ointment. This week x filed an objection. Now I thought originally, when they said we have something we want to say, that they were going to say no, we want to buy it or maybe let then alex jones use it, or something like that. No, it turns out that, among the other things, the info war Twitter accounts, and X said no, they don't own those, we own them. You do not own your social media accounts. You don't own your followers. You don't own your account. You don't own anything at all. And uh, that is a fascinating assertion. I guess not maybe too much of a surprise, but yet that's something for everybody to remember. You don't own that stuff you put up there gotta start blogging again.

01:44:27
Everybody personal websites yep, get your rss feeds up to date yep, I I actually I've mentioned it before I use a site called MicroBlog. It's kind of a Twitter, but it's also my blog and when I post on it, it automatically posts it to. It doesn't post to Twitter because their API is not open, but to threads, to Mastodon and to a blue sky. That's nice, isn't that cool? So you can post stuff here and I still own it. Right, it's mine. It's just syndicating it to those other sites. So if Twitter, well, it's not Twitter, but because I don't use Twitter anyway. But if Mastodon or or threads or blue sky disappears or asserts ownership of this stuff, no, no, it started here. I own this, which I think is the right way to do it gotta go back to it yeah yeah, post it's posse, post once syndicate everywhere um I forgot anyway.

01:45:30 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Original mike. No, no, it's the original. But one of the first micrologs I remember back in the day which we all love so much, and I think it was called Postable. It was kind of a yellowish.

01:45:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, I used it and you would email to it Postable. They went at Postarous. It's called Post, something Postarous.

01:45:46 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Bingo Dude, I love that and it's really funny you say that today. Uh, for my first video for december, I was going to talk about why I'm going back to blogging, and it had a lot to do with because, like I've been, on the first invites. But yeah, I just feel like I know that I feel like somebody in my family would be able to get access to anything I put there later if something were to happen to me in, uh, st patrick's day at least 2041.

01:46:13 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I got some time, man, that's not well, this this was the whole sort of idea behind the verge's redesign last year was oh really yeah. So we have these quick posts now on on our site um, which are basically nilai patel, the editor-in-chief um. You know, he would sort of say to us guys, let's not put our thoughts and feelings and ideas on on x social media sites or x or any of them, put them here put it, let's put it on the site, you know, let's give it to our readers and you know the the verge now has more of a kind of social media stream.

01:46:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Feel, feel nila's very smart. He used to be on our show, but he's too smart for us anymore. But uh, I love me what does that make me?

01:46:54 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
hey, no well you're his proxy.

01:46:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You're uh, yeah, you're smarter. How about that? You're even smarter.

01:47:02 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
You come on this show, but this I think this is really true, this is really true because you know blogging is great, but you know there's always the kind of feeling like a blog requires a fair amount of structure or form, or at least more than 75 characters. So the idea of these were more. They were twofold, I think I don't want to put too many words in Nilo's mouth and he's written about this so you can find out more but sharing things from around the web, which is something that social media is used for a lot. We link to stories on different publications all the time that we like or we think is worth disseminating, and then also just our thoughts, short and sweet when we have them, that aren't necessarily a whole story, because, yeah, the Verge is our home. My author page has all of my stories on it If I go to X or if I go to any of the social media sites.

01:47:56
As you say, you don't own that and it's important to always be able to, especially as a journalist, own your own content, and this isn't just social media, I mean. Websites disappear, so your content disappears. I actually use a service called Authory that gets anything I've written online and what's the word, stores it into like a PDF form, so that can always, even if the website goes out of business, I'll still have a copy of my article, because the internet is unfortunately ephemeral in many senses. You can't always guarantee that something's going to either be there or be the same as when you wrote it, because things get updated, and so, yeah, it's very important, especially for journalists, to be able to keep copies of everything you've done and copies of your work, and I think anyone that thought that they owned their Twitter account or X account.

01:48:52
Well now the truth is out owned their Twitter account or X account. Um, well, now the truth is out. I I don't know that many people really realize that that was um the case, but it's. It's true on all of the social media platforms. Really, yeah, of course of course.

01:49:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's why they can sell it to an AI for scraping, because that you don't own it.

01:49:09 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Um, well, you know it's funny. You mentioned the author page. If I pull up author pages for me, they're all on engadget. Now because two, I got sucked into gadget board oh, you were at the ultimate apple.

01:49:21 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Uh apple website I was right here, yeah so it's funny like they still show up every once in a while when I'm looking for something and I'm like yo, I forgot, I completely forgot. It's all over there because they, but at least you live on. Yeah, so they live on, but without, uh, without pictures, probably, because most sites delete pictures some of them are broken, some of them there.

01:49:42 - Doc Rock (Guest)
It really depends on whether it was because we did a change over in the middle and so some of the stuff that was on one of the services, all of the pictures, survived, but, like you know, the old twoRTV logos and stuff which I designed, they still show up.

01:49:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, that's cool yeah.

01:49:55 - Doc Rock (Guest)
So it's funny I really just resonated when JPT was talking, like it all resonated to me about how much I miss those ideas of sort of owning your own byline and yeah, and what's really crazy, somebody had mentioned way back up in the chat like oh, you should have kept some of them Apple stocks, but when I first moved over into the quote unquote journalistic side, they wouldn't let you keep your stock, like a dummy and come to find out a whole bunch of people never diverse, oh that's frustrating.

01:50:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, it's never have, don't own any. I never have. I never have, don't own any, I never have.

01:50:39 - Doc Rock (Guest)
So I guess, it's also important that you don't own your YouTube content. Yeah, for the most part, and I fully understand that.

01:50:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think that's something that I would do when they post on YouTube.

01:50:54 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I teach my people that, but I don't think a lot of people know that they technically don't own their content right and one of the things that I also do. There's a youtube license and there's a creative common license. I tend to press the creative common life I did that, I do that too right. People say well, what if somebody steals your stuff? It's not mine, bro, like I'm telling you thoughts from my head and I haven't invented a couple techniques that I think are my own, but I'm just here to share.

01:51:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's ephemera. Yeah, it still gets monetized.

01:51:16 - Doc Rock (Guest)
For me, being who I am, so like. I think that is such a weird concept and we will be, I guess, better off the more we get used to understanding of what we're sharing and why we're sharing it. For right now there's a lot of chase to be first and sort of one-upsmanship, and I think that also adds to the toxicity of the platforms, because now, from a debacle that happened last year, people don't even trust the youtube reviewers anymore because one of the companies had a one person that worked in that company that thought they were going to get the leg up and keep their job by trying to talk a couple of the youtubers into not saying that they paid for this camera review. And then everybody slagged at the company and I was like yo, I know most people at that company. There was just one person speaking out of turn and you, you know what I mean.

01:52:06
So that whole embargo day stuff is kind of I'm I tell road. When road just sends me something, I go. Mine would be three, four days late and they go why? Because I don't want to be on embargo day. I'm not competing with these kids we don't own anything.

01:52:21 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
These days, they do like we don't know we don't know, music you know, there's so many things you think you you've spent money on and you've bought, and in the digital world, um, yeah, I think there's a lot of people that don't really understand that, um and that's. You know that and it's, it's frustrating. But there's also, you're paying the community, you're paying for the convenience and it's so much easier to these days to, you know, stream the music. I mean, I used to have, you know, stacks of cds. I owned that music. Now you know spotify and apple music. I can listen to anything I want, but one day, if I stop paying, it's all gone.

01:52:56 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Yeah, I still love physical media, physical movies, amazing stuff that you can get.

01:53:00 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, but what can you play it on? I mean, I can play it on a whole bunch of things.

01:53:07 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
And I think more people should be talking about, like, what a miracle the 4K Blu-ray-ray format you have to buy the film stock because you could always get a light bulb film degrades yeah, degrades right, everything, yeah, everything, yeah there's nothing.

01:53:20 - Doc Rock (Guest)
That's the, that's the downside I actually have some old scenes that won't play because they degraded, so this brought man, so that will happen.

01:53:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, that's the thing very bad in hawaii because it's so humid there. Actually, that's more I tried, wasn't expecting it.

01:53:33 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I'm like these are going to last forever and I put them away and I'm going to pull out some old stuff and I'm like wow I was working on a radio station when cds first came out.

01:53:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
My the music director, the program director, came to a big conference room table. He said great news we're replacing all the other stuff the vinyl and everything with these cds. They're indestructible. And he started throwing them. They're not indestructible. Uh, we learned a lesson that day. You know, you mentioned posters. I feel like posters might we should. I wish we could bring it back it. It was sold. It went out of business. The idea was you'd email your blog posts in. I used it when we went to china because we couldn't. I couldn't post on twitter or anywhere else, but I could email. They couldn't block email everybody supported that last

01:54:21 - Doc Rock (Guest)
post on posters are from china. That's really funny. You say that, oh, that's funny.

01:54:25 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
But we're supported that in like 2005 or so, like you could I? Guess the wordpress and other blogs posters are so simple though tumblr, the whole family of stuff, yeah why are those all?

01:54:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
did people just that twitter?

01:54:38 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
micro blogging killed a lot of that, like you did. This small blogging like the I don't know were those mini blogs, um, but when you could just like fart out a thought on a you know on your phone, you just lose the urge to write a longer piece, don't you just?

01:54:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
yeah it scratches that itch, and so you don't need to do anything longer anymore well, maybe you didn't need in the beginning, right?

01:54:59 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I think that's also the beginning of our number one inability inability to communicate properly, because it was easier to take a 240 character pose and misunderstood what the person was saying. But if you force them to write 500 words where you can probably get out a deeper thought, that was too much work. So we ended up overreacting to a lot of sort of misguided 240 character tweets and we lost the ability to have conversation without just going straight to the left I mean people still misinterpreted those 500 word blog posts.

01:55:35 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Like I, I've been on the internet long enough to be invited it doesn't matter how long it is, they're going to misinterpret everything I take it at least, at least with twitter, like it's faster. I could be like, oh no, no, you're wrong, or like you know, uh you can explain yourself.

01:55:50 - Doc Rock (Guest)
You misheard my five seconds talking exactly.

01:55:53 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Uh, the one of the best tweets is like that's a whole other sentence you know, I'm not even saying that, what?

01:55:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
you're saying are we gonna look back in 20 years and say I remember the good old days of twitter and all the I'm doing that wars and huh, you're doing that now like?

01:56:09 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
the good old days of like early twitter and like how kind of cool it was cool. I think that was yeah, um, and you know things are changing. I am, I'm following the blue sky wave right now, like the things they're doing, the lessons blue sky as a company seems to have learned from the issues with Twitter and everything else, I think are kind of kind of heartening, you know everybody we talked to on these shows has started to move to blue sky.

01:56:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's fine, Is it? You're nodding, Jennifer. You moved to Blue Sky as well.

01:56:38 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Well, I mean, it's a casualty of the job really, but I'm on like all of them. But I would say that Blue Sky I've started to use more. I joined when it first came out and at first I really didn't sort of find a community there that I was. My smart home community was still very much on X, but everyone's pretty much gone now and Mastodon I still use. There's quite a good community there that I interact with a lot.

01:57:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, you're old school. Wow, we run our own Mastodon instance, so I'm obviously a Mastodon supporter.

01:57:09 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
but it's cool. Yeah, I mean, there are too many though.

01:57:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's the thing now, like there are too many social social networks. Well, that's the question I ask. When people say, oh no, we've moved to blue skies, you move to school side because you still feel a need to do micro blogging, is that why?

01:57:26 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
or the conversations are great, like that's the thing. That's why I joined twitter and when. I kind of love twitter is that you could just strike up a conversation with anybody, and to me, twitter was always the purest thing of what I wanted from the internet.

01:57:38
You know, when I went to the first AOL chatroom I was like, oh, people are talking about video games and anime here. That's cool, because nobody in my town is doing this stuff. So Twitter was that direct feed to the global conversation and we're kind of recreating that in Blue Sky. It's much smaller, but it's fun, like the energy is good.

01:57:55 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
But it is skyrocketed in the last three or four weeks. I mean I think the starter pack stuff really has sort of that was kind of a genius move.

01:58:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That was smart, that was so smart.

01:58:06 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I mean I went from two I think I had like I don't know 500 followers or something to 6,000 in like a week, wow. And now it's kind of hard to. I still haven't. It still hasn't necessarily got its mojo yet I think. I mean it still feels very much just like this is Twitter, but what?

01:58:26
This was Twitter, but without some of the nasty side of Twitter. I love the links. I think that's great to have that back. That was one of the things I mainly use. I love the links. I think that's great to have that back.

01:58:34
That was one of the things I mainly use Twitter for was as a news source, but the conversation. I do see some much more engagement there than I see on threads, and engagement, you know, is probably the key for me. That's what I'm most interested in, you know, being able to sort of talk to readers and reach in and people that are in the space and like have those conversations as you, as you said, vavindra, that's, you know that's what twitter was so good for. X, being able to reach out to people that you know you normally wouldn't be able to connect with. I mean, I used when I, but when I started out as a baby tech journalist. I reached out to quite a few people from the twit network on on twitter and interviewed them for stories I was doing, and you know it would have been hard to kind of connect. That connection is is really key.

01:59:18
But the problem now, with seven social media networks that everyone's using, it's like where do you go now? Um, and what's what's going to? I mean, the race is on, isn't it? Which is going to win, or are we just going to keep? Are we going to have them all? Are they all going to continue? Um, I mean, which one's your favorite now?

01:59:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
briefly thought there would be, that it wouldn't be replaced, that we didn't need this and that we're just going to move on to something else. But I guess maybe there is a need to kind of create these communities online. It would be nice if there were one, but we've also learned that we don't really want to centralize this all into one private company, because, well, you saw what happened at twitter. Um, there is a. Let me show you this app because I don't know if you know about it. It's called clear sky. Are you familiar with this clearskyapp? They use the api to do some interesting things. So, for instance, they say right now, there's 23.4 million active accounts on blue sky. You can see the top most blocked, by the way, is brianna, uh. But you can also like I can do my put my handle in here and find out and this is really useful what lists I'm on uh, which one doesn't. Oh, I can also see who I'm blocking.

02:00:32 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I'm only blocking one person oh leo, you gotta really flex that block I gotta get going, but I'm blocked by uh 22 people.

02:00:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So, okay, I'm proud to say here's the list you're on, so I'm on 335 different lists. I think that's really interesting, right? Um? So this is a clear sky dot app. It's a free um app that just uses the api and you can see if there's somebody on here uh palomar who's blocked half a million site accounts they black.

02:01:01 - Doc Rock (Guest)
They blocked me.

02:01:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm like I think it's just an auto block yeah obviously right, um, yeah, anyway, I just thought that was kind of interesting. That's to me a sign when, when this started happening with twitter, with clout and stuff like that, that's a sign that it has gotten some currency in the culture, people are going to start writing tools around it. It's also a good sign because it means there's an api or there's this you know, and there is there's the app proto, uh, which, uh, um all of these lists that I'm on are people's twit lists.

02:01:33 - Doc Rock (Guest)
How nice of you guys, oh see show up on twit. You'll end up on blue sky I've been on blue sky like like jbt for the beginning, but the only person I would actually talk to, strangely enough, was jake taffer, because he was writing a book and I liked. I liked the book and we were never talking about what he does.

02:01:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We're talking, but that was what was cool about twitter, just as jennifer saying is, you could have these conversations with big shots.

02:01:57 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Yeah, it was helpful in starting a podcast in like 08, 09. Sure, movie directors and writers and stuff.

02:02:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's how I met Steve Martin. He DM'd me. He said you don't have to answer this, but I really like your shows.

02:02:18 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I was like I'm not going to answer. Steve martin, are you kidding me? Uh, so yeah, what it was. I posted a thing about vegemite and oh, that'll do it. Road had sent me some vegemite, that probably got me blocked.

02:02:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, don't get all the. All the marmite fans got pissed off at you, that's what it was. That's the big battle, marmite versus vegemite. That's it so simple yeah, it's umami, isn't it? Yeah, actually, what it really is is the byproduct of beer manufacture, but let's not get into that marmite for the win oh, you're, of course, you're a marmite. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's awful can you tell the difference?

02:02:57 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
yeah, if I do. My marmite is just wonderful, it's like it all tastes like salt to me, you know and cheese on toast.

02:03:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's all right, all right. Ian thompson's always telling me that you gotta put your mom on that toast. Blue sky has implemented a more aggressive impersonation policy, so if you are a parody account or a fan, count they again. Another sign of maturity like oh yeah, this is starting to become a thing.

02:03:24 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
They're growing up so fast.

02:03:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, isn't it sweet. 44% of blue skies 100 most followed accounts have a doppelganger a double. That's blue skies. 100 most followed accounts have a doppelganger a double. Uh, that's either a parody or a satire or a fan account. So I doubt I have one, but now I will because I said it, so forget it. Uh, that's according to engadget. Thank you, mariela moon, and thank you, davinder hard. Awar, um, let's take a break, and we I do want to talk. Jennifer has posted a couple of things about the FTC's uh report on smart devices, which is kind of an eye-opener. Um, and maybe, uh, you have some advice for us JPT. We're going to call her chat JPT from now on. Love it. Kevinvin king, our producer, was the one that came up with that. Uh, doc rocks also here, and davinder hard, where our show today, brought to you by our good buddies at aci learning. You might say well, how do you? How? Okay, the good buddies I've never heard about that's the folks who do it pro. Ah, we've been talking about them since they started Binge-worthy video-on-demand IT and cybersecurity training, whether it's as an individual, as a team, it Pro is the way to get cert-ready.

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02:05:28
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02:06:10
Be bold, train smart with ACI Learning. If you go to the website infoacilearningcom slash TWIT, you'll see there is a code for 30% off your first year of the IT Pro annual training plans. That's a big savings. Just use the offer code TWIT100, or just go direct to infoacilearningcom slash TWIT twit. If you've said to yourself I should get into it, I need a better job. And boy, so many of our uh listeners over the years have done that have become it professionals. It's a great career. There's always a need if you've got a team that you want to keep up skill. You know skilled and upskilled this is a great way to do it too. They, the teams love it because it's great training. Infoacilearningcom twit. Don't forget that offer code twit100. We thank them so much for supporting the show. So tell me about this. Ftc report. Jennifer Patterson Toohey.

02:07:10 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, so basically the FTC did some Googling. Wow, impressive.

02:07:14 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Holy cow the research that they did.

02:07:17 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Wow, because this is just sort of an early look at what is going to be a big problem. And it's actually Stacey Higginbotham, friend of the show. This has sort of been a personal crusade of hers for a long time. If you listen to her IoT Stacey on IoT podcast, which she used to do, she would harp on about this that smart connected gadgets need an expiration date. And what the Fc has done here has is research to see a number I think they it was 184 smart products to see whether they told consumers when they would stop supporting them in the way that we know now that when a smartphone might-.

02:07:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Out of 184 products, only 21 21. Said oh, by the way, when you hit St Patrick's Day, 2041, that's it, it's over, it's done yeah.

02:08:10 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
So the idea basically being that these smart makers of smart devices are not telling consumers how long they will support their product. So if you buy a smart thermostat or a smart garage door opener, video doorbells, all sorts of things, home appliances there's a list of companies that they researched and 184 of them, only 11, just over 11% actually had any data on when the device would stop working.

02:08:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I have to confess I've never thought about that. I have a Ring doorbell. I never thought about that when Ring may stop supporting it.

02:08:45 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, and this is a tricky area. This is why I wouldn't necessarily say the companies are necessarily at fault here yet, because this is not something that's become part of the consumer consciousness. It's becoming that way now because we're seeing more and more devices that have gone out of business, companies have gone out of business, so there's no longer a cloud support. For example, a couple of months ago, aerogarden, which was a smart garden device that you could put on your kitchen counter and grow.

02:09:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I bought one on Instagram, yeah.

02:09:19 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Single-handedly keeping Instagram going. But yeah, so it went out. It went out. Business it's shutting its servers down. You can still use the device you know to grow things but you gotta water by hand now but there's no.

02:09:32
There are no more software updates and obviously the big concern here from the FTC standpoint is if there are no software updates, your device could become a security risk if you keep it online. Um, ultimately, most smart home devices and you were asking about advice here you know they should still do what they're supposed to do even if they don't have an internet connection. That is a key thing you should always bear in mind there is one issue, though, which stacy points out.

02:09:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's one thing if your doorbell, you know, isn't getting updates, or your maybe a thermostat you that would be or your, your garden isn't getting updates. It's another thing entirely if your router is not getting updates?

02:10:10
yes, that's the one we talked about this yeah, on secure and that's considered a whole uh, you know a smart iot device. We talked about this on security now last tuesday because d--Link there's a zero-day exploit on D-Link routers which are very widely sold and D-Link has no update for it. It's out of, they're out of service, but lots of people, hundreds of thousands of people, are still using them.

02:10:35 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
And when you go and buy your Wi-Fi router, just like when you went and bought your Ring doorbell, it didn't think to you that this isn't going to work. And the difference here between, say, our smartphones or our laptops or our computers, which you kind of feel like probably aren't going to live with you forever they're consumables is that a lot of the things you put into your house you expect will last the length of the house, your time in the house Doorbells, washing machines, fridges they used to last 10, 15, 20 years. Obviously things have changed a little bit, but with technology. But the expectation for most consumers is that a device that you buy to put into your house, that sort of infrastructure for your house, is going to last a long time. And we haven't.

02:11:17
We're just starting to hit this point where people are realizing oh no, you know this is, there is an expiration date, because if the company decides, like D-Link did, that they no longer want to support this product, it's just no longer going to work. Or, if you know, devices that may still have do their original function but if you keep them online and they're not getting software updates become a threat vector, which is obviously a big concern in the smart home, but you also. If you have a smart thermostat, it may still work, but you may lose your features that you were using, like learning thermostats that predict when you're gonna need to get warmer or cooler. Those features go away. You've paid a premium for those features and now they're gone because the company has decided to stop supporting them.

02:12:01
So ultimately, the FTC here this is more sort of just an opening, sort of gambit. It looks like like we're going to start looking into this more seriously, although they do think they pointed out in this blog post that this actually these companies may be breaking the law or the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. So basically, consumer devices that cost more than $15 should have a warranty, and if you're not providing support and not telling the consumer how long you're going to provide that support for, they could be in violation of this act. So we may see the FTC do something here. I think ultimately, what we will start to see now is that companies, hopefully, will start thinking okay, we need to think about this, because they need to think it's not just companies like Amazon or Ring big companies like that you probably feel a bit more comfortable buying a product from, because they're probably not going out of business in the next five to 10 years, but it depends. They do kill products.

02:13:00 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Yeah.

02:13:00 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
You never know they kill products. They do kill products regularly, but it's to their credit, they do keep the support largely, for I mean there is a few, a few examples of not like the nest. Protect the nest, secure Right Alarm system, right they did kill that, but the bigger companies. Amazon has killed products, but then it's given consumers their money back um it's understandable.

02:13:25
I mean you make a product, you're not going to support it for 100 years but this, yeah, that's the question, though how long should they um what is a reasonable amount of time, and seven years should be aware and that's the key.

02:13:38 - Doc Rock (Guest)
It was always a fight with us at apple because so we would have a five-year functioning plan, right, and then we had a seven-year obsolescence plan. But you know, there was time I'm at the bar somebody would come in with a 2012 square. You know, g4 power book favorite power book ever, by the way, the time, beautiful and um. You know it works. And you know, and it's like, well, I don't need a new one. I'm like, how can you still use this? They're like I just write like I write most people, you know I don't buy something thinking, oh, I'm gonna have to replace it in five years.

02:14:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, most people don't do that. By the way, apple still does not say, if you buy a new iphone today, how long you're guaranteed security updates for it.

02:14:24 - Doc Rock (Guest)
They don't at least they're better about five or six generations, but it's not. But it's not.

02:14:30 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
They don't say android now does right, google does and samsung does and and more and more companies are doing that, and I think we'll see it come into the smart home, but this is also one area where Matter is addressing this problem long term, because Matter is a local protocol and it's also open source. So if your device works with Matter, even if the company for the business goes out of business or shuts down support for that specific product, it will still work on your home network and because it's open source, there's the potential that someone might be able to. This is one thing that I heard Stacey say a lot and I agree with is if your company's going out of business or if you're shutting a product down, open source the API. Let other people be able to keep the product going. Small communities, I mean. We had an entire company that went out of business and the users got together and took all of the data.

02:15:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Was that Wemo? What was that? I?

02:15:34 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
forgot. No, I'm trying to remember the name.

02:15:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm trying to remember.

02:15:37 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
It would be AI.

02:15:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, pardon, it was an AI bot no, I'm thinking no, I have that, the osmo, I have that over here this was a smart, a home automation company um wemo.

02:15:49 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
It was like wemo, it wasn't wemo, it would have been around even longer than them oh, whizzo whoa.

02:15:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The name has escaped, but the company.

02:15:57 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
the users bought the company and kept it afloat and brought it back online and you know to be able. So these products are going to have a lifespan, obviously, but Insteon is that it?

02:16:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Thank you, Insteon. Thank you to Richard Campbell.

02:16:12 - Doc Rock (Guest)
It's very much like TiVo was too right. Tivo was almost dead in the water and the people were like no People like Leo and and I, who had several. We were like you can't get rid of tivo I wrote a book about it. Yeah, yeah.

02:16:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I think it's a very similar sort of thing of by the way, if there's anything shorter lived than an iot device, it's a tech book. They are. Do not write tech books. They, uh, they the lifespan, especially about like niche categories like I.

02:16:42 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I've never had a tivo or like DVR, like that whole phase of entertainment. I'm a whole media guy, so, oh, just just wild to me. But to what you're saying, uh, to what we're talking about here would be nice to see more, more regulations around this, at least in terms of guaranteeing warranties, or at least more more regulations around this, at least in terms of guaranteeing warranties or at least offline access offline capabilities.

02:17:08
I'd like to introduce you to Leo Laporte's guide to Tevo. I remember that, thanks to Gareth who helped me on that, yeah, yeah, technical accuracy verified by weakkneescom.

02:17:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They were actually the primary source for this. This was actually on how to hack the tivo 1.0, which, uh, yeah, I'm sure people love that. Oh, and, by the way, yeah, look what it came with in the book. It came with a cd inside. Yeah, just just what you wanted.

02:17:34
Oh, that's history huh isn't that ridiculous is tivo still around? Yes, replay went away, though. Right, that was the one that that was the one that died. Uh, well, good, I I would love to see this. I think that we need to know and we need to think about it. It's good for consumers to be aware of it, because it's not just them.

02:17:51
When your router becomes a security flaw, or your even your doorbell, it could affect the internet as a whole. Right, it could be used as a botnet and all sorts of things. So this is a very serious uh issue. There's also uh an article you uh from the verge. You mentioned. Ftc is changing its telemarketing rules. Okay, get this. If you called a tech support scam number, they couldn't protect you. They could only go after them if they called you. So why? You might wonder what? You see all these pop-ups to say oh, your computer's infected. Call us because there was no way to get after these guys if you called them. The fdc has finally finalized amendments to the telemarketing sales rule, which makes it easier to protect consumers who are tricked into paying scam tech support companies. They could always go after them if they called you, but they couldn't go after them if you called them unbelievable great stuff.

02:19:00 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Have you guys seen the movie the beekeeper?

02:19:02 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
no, yes, yes, oh my god, what is it tell me?

02:19:06 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I want to see it, every text fighting like basically taking down a fishing scam company. Who uh? Oh, that sounds good down physically if you want, some takes you down, you get, you are, you know you're taking um but no, that movie's a big, a big fun time and I think the the way they visualize like the fishing scam companies and how like slimy they are.

02:19:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It feels really good, feels really cathartic, to see him punch those people in the according according to the verge, people over 60 are five times more likely to be a victim of these scams, especially after midnight three in the morning on instagram what I need to fix my computer.

02:19:50
Let me call you right back 175 million dollars in reported losses. I'm sure it's more than that. Earlier this year the ftc reported fake geek squad. You ever get one of those geek squad pop-ups, or actually I got text messages almost gosh. I thought, oh, it must be real, it's the geek squad and that they topped the list of fraud. 15 million dollars lost to these clowns pretending to be the geek squad yeah, and it's insane.

02:20:17
It's called jason. Let's get him in here with his sawed-off shotgun. Uh, one more break and then we're gonna wrap it up. Believe it or not it's been. I don't want to go. This is too much fun I would. I would just hang out with you guys anytime. Anyway, I love it. Davindra hardwar from engadget, jennifer pattison, tui from the verge, doc rock from hawaii it's good to have all three of you. You're wearing the man united shirt because you're a supporter. Are you a soccer hooligan?

02:20:47 - Doc Rock (Guest)
doc rock a die hard, die hard I. It's really born in the wrong place because, like I've been at this. So when misl first came to the us, I lived nearby rfk stadium in d, so I got to go watch the diplomats games. And back then security just paid no attention to little kids sneaking in, so we watched all the diplomat games. At that time they had this guy named Johan Cruyff Turns out to be one of the greatest soccer players to ever play, so I've even seen a match between Johan Cruyff and Pele. So I got addicted way back then. And when tv started showing, you know, epl here in the us, I was like hooked and yeah, that's, that's the nice thing, like it is the most boring game.

02:21:30 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I don't know why they call it the beautiful game and all that because it's just because nothing happens they're running up and down running back and forth running, running help me, I know, I know it is very it's way more interesting than american football you probably like cricket too, though let's be fair, jenna no, no.

02:21:45 - Doc Rock (Guest)
So the problem is like if you only compare it to what you see in the m and uh, I forgot msl or whatever we have I watched the world cup I watched the best stuff. It's still warcox, not the best. You need to watch the epl. Just just trust me why?

02:21:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
is it better? Isn't it still people running up?

02:22:01 - Doc Rock (Guest)
and down and up and down.

02:22:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, there's finesse in their speed and their strategy people running, then sports in general not good this is why I like the nfl, because they run for like a foot and then some 300 pound guy and slams them to the ground, get them to listen.

02:22:18 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Here's the one. Okay, I'm nothing against advertisers, I love advertisers, they, they pay me, but every five seconds it stops in footy we stop one time, because no so that's why they plaster the field with advertisements 100, but guess who makes more money?

02:22:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
so we doing it wrong? Does soccer make more money really?

02:22:38 - Doc Rock (Guest)
absolutely freaking, luli than the nfl.

02:22:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yes, help me out here. Uh, devendra, this is.

02:22:45 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
This is saccharine athlete in the world go okay, ronaldo yeah, 180 million a year it is so much more fun to play than to watch like that's it is fun to play.

02:23:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I love. I love running up and down the field. Yeah, that's fun. I just to play than to watch. It is, it's fun to play. I love running up and down the field. Yeah, that's fun.

02:23:04 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I just don't want to watch somebody else do it.

02:23:05 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
It is a religion in the rest of the world, though. I know Football is like it's a cultural thing. It's so much more than America has changed a lot in the last decade, like it's become much more popular here. When I moved here 20 years ago and I used to have to.

02:23:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You know, do pay-per-view just to watch, you know, premier league games, apple tv has just gone crazy, but apple does, ms apple does this I would love to see the premier league is that better? It's better, it's better. Soccer the premier league.

02:23:35 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Premier league is on nbc dude. What are you talking about?

02:23:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
you know that's thanks to that's thanks to that silly Apple show with a guy with a mustache.

02:23:45 - Doc Rock (Guest)
So you know what's funny. That show started as a skit. That show started as a skit the day NBC bought the rights to soccer. It was a skit to teach US people about soccer, and then, 10 years later, it became the TV show, and so so, yeah, it's got even bigger. But I thank you nbc for finally, because I used to jump through hoops satanta, iptv oh my gosh, that was terrible.

02:24:11
Oh yeah, the only thing good about satanta was the special one, the puppets with wayne rooney, and, and oh my god, they were so good.

02:24:21 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I remember when I first lived in the States I had to go and buy the Sunday newspapers to find out the scores, and that was, and they were three days late because it took that long to fly them over from the UK.

02:24:33 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
So this was when.

02:24:34 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I was 18.

02:24:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That was a long time ago. Wow, so long time ago, wow, but yeah, it's a much ago. Wow, so long time ago, wow.

02:24:40 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
But, yeah, it's a much, much better now, and one day America will win the world cup, but probably not in our lifetimes.

02:24:46 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Not until we get rid of.

02:24:48 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Get close. We've gotten to the finals.

02:24:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Haven't we gotten to the finals? No, never, no, no.

02:24:53 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Women. The problem is, our guys go to university. Great women have won again.

02:24:57 - Doc Rock (Guest)
The women are good, the women are the best in the world. Yes, but yeah that's all it matters, develop a club system. Once we develop a club system, we'll catch up.

02:25:05 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
There's no way we're going to do it sending our guys to play college well, you keep putting all the soccer players on the football teams kicking the goals.

02:25:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So yeah, that's true, the most, the most ridiculous profession. Yes, I come out for a second every few hours to kick one ball. Once it's a skill, it's highly skilled.

02:25:26
Our kicker. We got a guy off the street because we had so many injuries of the 49ers. They got a guy off the street. He kicks the ball, kicks it off the other end. The guy runs it back and for some reason, decides he can also tackle and tries to tackle the runner, injures himself and he's gone. It was like he had one shot and that was it. They should only kick. That's the rule. All right, you're watching this week in tech and this week in soccer. Ignorance, and I apologize to the entire world, which thinks I'm a fool for not loving the beautiful game I'm sure it's more fun if you're at a pub with your friends.

02:26:00 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
You know what I call it the beautiful game.

02:26:01 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I'm sure it's more fun if you're at a pub with your friends. You know why they call it the beautiful game, johan Cruyff. Thank you, I stand corrected.

02:26:06 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
We could do this weekend.

02:26:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Sucker Otani makes $700 million, I think that's a little bit more, but anyway, I'm not going to belay. Look, baseball's even worse and I will acknowledge that it's over for baseball. It's sad, but it's over. So I'm making enemies. It's uh. Thank you for watching the show. We appreciate it. Now that I've made enemies of all of you, would you like to join the club?

02:26:31
Club twit, it is, uh, what keeps this show and all of the shows we do on the air. I am so thrilled with the success of club twit. Thank you to our more than 12,000 members. You have made it possible for us to say not only stay alive, you're covering half our payroll now. Without Club Twit, we would have had to let people go, we would have had to shut down shows. But I'd like to do more and with your help we can. If you watch our shows, if you enjoy what you see and you'd like us to keep going, I'd like to invite you to join the club. We keep the cost very low seven bucks a month, I mean, that's practically nothing. And for that you get so much ad, free versions of all of our shows, access to the club, to discord, which is a great hang with some smart, interesting people. You also get to participate in our kind of club twit events, including uh micah.

02:27:20
He does his crafting course so cute he's doing his needlepoint or his cruel work while uh, other people are doing their legos and so forth. We have stacy's book club speaking of stacy hickenbotham coming up in a couple of weeks. We're doing a james essay corey, his latest novel. Uh, I can't wait to talk about that. Uh, chris marquardt does his photo assignments. We do a coffee show now with Mark Prince, the coffee geek. It's just a lot of fun to be in the club and it helps us keep going on the air.

02:27:49
If you're not a member, we do have some new features we should mention. One is you can get two weeks free just to try before you buy, if you want. And when you sign up for a club you'll get an offer code which allows you to post it everywhere you want. And if your friends join using your referral code, you get a free month. So there's another reason to join twittv slash club twit. It really helps us, uh, keep doing what we are, I think, what we do best and we really appreciate your support on we go with this week in tech. Uh, I think this will be interesting.

02:28:25
The Supreme Court has said is probably going to take up a case about who's responsible for your piracy. Is it the ISP? It's Sony versus Cox. Sony says Coxable is responsible for the piracy on its network. In fact, the jury found that Cox was guilty of willful contributory infringement and gave Sony a billion dollar in damages. And gave Sony a billion dollar in damages, but the court the Fourth Circuit reversed the verdict saying Cox didn't profit, so you can't charge him damages. There's a new trial. Sony and Cox are both seeking Supreme Court review. Is an ISP liable for the piracy that its customers engage in? This is mainly because the record industry for years has tried to go after customers and failed and the MPAA.

02:29:29 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Yeah, remember that yeah.

02:29:32 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
This feels like sort of the last gasp of the dinosaur industry. I hope so. It makes me so mad reading this it makes me so mad reading this, because you know it's not the punishing cutting the internet off because someone copied your music and then, like today, you need the internet for everything.

02:29:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And it's. You know, that's true. It's more than just a luxury, isn't it? It's not.

02:29:55 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Yeah, it's an essential part of daily life these days and it's this just makes me days and this just makes me mad. Reading this article made me mad Because it's the same. I mean it goes back to, you know, content non-duration on social media. There's so many elements to this that you see throughout technology. It's like what's the difference between the pipes and the content, like who's responsible for what? And the pipes the internet should just be the pipes. And, of course and we need the pipes you can't just take them away because someone's done something on the pipes that you don't like. It's like cars because?

02:30:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
or charging the phone company for those guys who call you up and scam you. It's not the phone company's right fault, um. What scares me is the supreme court is considering taking this case. What should? What they should say is no, the fourth circuit was right. There's absolutely no liability here. What are you talking about, um? But the knock-on effect of this would be ridiculous you don't know what the supreme court is up to we know it's funny.

02:30:59 - Doc Rock (Guest)
This conversation just went around. So back here it used to be Time Warner, cable, of course, now Spectrum, and Warner is now Warner Media, but then Warner Media is AT&T, so how come they didn't get talked about in this situation? Because they're the same company. At this point they can't shoot each other. It's confusing. You know what I mean? Like Sony, it can't shoot each other.

02:31:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's confusing. You know what I?

02:31:20 - Doc Rock (Guest)
mean like sony, like again, right. It was all crazy back in the day when everybody thought that the internet was going to stop you from watching tv, watching movies, listening music, if anything. The internet, internet, internet increased some of the watchability of these things because we were able to hello, get social and build communities around game of thrones or house of dragons, right. So now they've used it, even the the fact that kids today are into the star wars that we saw in the theater in 77 you're blaming the internet for that no, I'm saying the internet helped, it kept it afloat.

02:31:58
Disney tried to ruin it, it's true, but somehow we figured out how to fight back and fix them and make it better. And now there's whole brand new shows that we never would have heard of. You know, george double r like. I pray for that dude at nightly and I'm an atheist like. But I pray for him because I'm like dude. I need you to finish the books he's not gonna finish the books.

02:32:17 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Come on, he's not gonna finish the books dude he's having fun.

02:32:21 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I'm a wishful man he's out there partying in his greek cap, greek sailor cap, and he's not gonna have it's so funny that though this is a thing and it's like I agree with jbt in a sense that the industry just still are trying to hold on to something that kind of that ship sailed a long time ago and, if anything I'm all used to be a conspiracy theorist on the fact of napster was sort of backed by the companies that wanted albums to become singular purchase tracks like. I still kind of sort of believe that a little bit and that sounds weird to say that.

02:32:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But uh, an experiment. How do you like, mike? I could write a novel. I got a greek fisherman dude that works you got double l right.

02:33:08 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
So george, double l martin l l martin there you go, it's just a demotivational hat. Once you get it, you'll never get anything done I'm just gonna want to party, that's all.

02:33:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, uh, this is the new form of warfare. You remember that two uh cables connecting uh, uh I think was it lithuania uh to the internet were cut. Uh, two baltic data cables cut and now the suspicion is on a chinese ship which had just been docking in russia, dragging its anchor for 100 miles. It could have been an accident. We just, you know, we forgot, we dropped our anchor and we're just dragging it for 100 miles. They had just left the Baltic, russian Baltic port on November 15th. The question is was the captain induced by Russian intelligence to carry out the sabotage? I have a feeling you're going to see more of this kind of appalling sabotage. They did it with the cable, the pipeline, the underwater pipeline, and they did it with these undersea cables.

02:34:22 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I mean, it's appalling right now already with open warfare, but this is, this is pretty bad, this is not we're definitely to see more of this type of thing and Russia pretending that they're not involved at all yeah, we didn't do it.

02:34:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, well, how are you going to prove it? Meta wants to put its own cable and they are planning to spend as much as $10 billion. Here's a story from the Verge.

02:34:44 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Actually. No, that story is really good, but it's not the one about Meta. Oh, what is this? This is a story that we wrote at the Verge almost a year ago.

02:34:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, it's an older story About the underwater cables and how they repair them.

02:34:58 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember this and this is why it's so scary what this sort of uh infrastructural warfare um because it's really hard to repair these cables and it cuts those countries off.

02:35:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, yes, and this is why meta is creating its own um just yeah, uh there, so it would only be for facebook that's what it said it was.

02:35:24 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
It was well for for its, its services.

02:35:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So all of the well, there is the facebook internet.

02:35:30 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Remember they offered that to india and india said no, thank you, it's the idea of no links on instagram expanded to to overall you never leave.

02:35:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You never leave. Meta's world. Uh, a 40 000 kilometer project it's. Uh, these are fiber optic cables that would lay under the sea and it would basically be a private internet. Wow, wow, sources uh close to confirmed the project, but this is a TechCrunch scoop. It hasn't actually been publicly announced. When completed, it would give Meta a dedicated pipe for data traffic around the world. Not a surprise. Look at this. It goes all the way from Virginia Beach and Myrtle Beach, all the way around the world back to california.

02:36:23 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Holy moly, the w cable I mean, we need more infrastructure here part-time.

02:36:29 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Could you just bring one of those cables?

02:36:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
up here. I mean, how does hawaii get internet blocks away? Does hawaii have a subsea cable or I don't know we have several.

02:36:38 - Doc Rock (Guest)
It's actually on the picture on the verge article and the funny thing is that boat kddi, that was my phone carrier when I went to school in japan. Wow, um, yeah, there's. There's like two cables coming from washington and one coming from california.

02:36:52
But it's on the verge picture if you look at it again that's really cool yeah, because originally I mean a lot of people don't realize this we were one of the first connected places because of Pearl Harbor, schofield, yeah, right, back when it was Milnet, back in 1966. Really, wow, we've been connected for a minute. The strange thing.

02:37:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Look, all the cables coming out of that little island there. Look at that.

02:37:20 - Doc Rock (Guest)
Wow, look at all the cables coming out of that little island there. Look at that. Wow, the part of the ethernet substack was actually invented at university of hawaii way back in the day, and then the board of regents didn't understand what it was going to be worth, so they were like, okay, whatever, and they gave it up to california.

02:37:34
So I think it went to what is uh, livermore, or oh, it was livermore, yeah it was berkeley, berkeley and we gave up any form of uh, residual rights or money that we would have got, and so there's a rumor I've never checked it because I don't want to be mad that like they still get like a one-cent royalty on every single mac address ever put out, and universal, you know what took up travel industry management spin it differently.

02:38:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, they were altruists. They realized how valuable this would be and they decided not to profit on it but to give it to the world for a penny or whatever a year yeah, we did the same thing with pizza recipe, which is total b, that is not a pineapple and bacon do not belong on a pizza. Don't get me started. I can't stand it.

02:38:24 - Doc Rock (Guest)
They call it a Hawaiian pizza and I'm like, listen bro, I'm going to get, I'm going to start getting mad, I'm not even Hawaiian.

02:38:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
If you put spam on it maybe, but not Canadian bacon and pineapple.

02:38:35 - Doc Rock (Guest)
As we say in Hawaii pululekala. You're absolutely right, okay.

02:38:40 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
The infrastructure. The concept of these infrastructure attacks is really scary, though.

02:38:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It is terrifying.

02:38:45 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
There is how easily we can be, you know, kneecapped, and not just this one. I mean, obviously deep sea cables are still like quite a challenge, but obviously they figured out a way to get them but just getting any infrastructure in America we are so dependent on our infrastructure and so much of it now is more easily hackable. It seems like that we I feel like that's the biggest danger that's facing this country right now, and there's, yeah, not just our smart home devices that run, that expire and turn into botnets, but our entire infrastructure in this country Gather your chickens.

02:39:23 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
gather your home batteries. Yes, this is our future. Gather your pineapple pizza. You've got to have your own infrastructure Doc Rock.

02:39:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Rich Campbell, who is, of course, the host of Windows Weekly Richard, is a proud Canadian. He says I didn't know this that Hawaiian pizza was invented in Toronto. Oh, this makes sense.

02:39:42 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
So like everything else else, you can blame canada, canada.

02:39:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's their fault. It's their fault yo. Doc rock is at youtubecom at doc rock. He is also the director of strategic partners from ecamm and has been instrumental in helping us set up this remote system that we use now, including Ecamm. I really appreciate everything in Zoom. You know what? Just tell those Ecamm folks to work with the Zoom folks. If we can get them together in one place, we'd really have something. But we have managed to make it work.

02:40:16 - Doc Rock (Guest)
It's kind of sort of how it happened, believe it or not. Yeah, alex introduced me to Andy no, at NAB a couple years back, wow, and then I knew who Andy was, but at that time he wasn't completely Zoom yet and Alex had introduced me to Andy.

02:40:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He invented Zoom ISO and sold it to Zoom and became a Zoom employee there you go, now you know it, and so during that conversation.

02:40:38 - Doc Rock (Guest)
I was like hold on, hold on, wait. This would be kind of cool. But then when I was messing with zoom iso, I'm like my my users. No way they could do the zoom iso thing, because I know what I'm doing and it's complicated, but I liked it I liked it.

02:40:50
And then when andy got pulled over to zoom, I was like, okay, now it's gonna get easier. And so I was like, andy, you need to meet ken and glenn. And then they started talking and they became friends, and so on and so on. I was like andy, you need to meet ken and glenn. And then they started talking and they became friends, and so on and so on. I was like that girl with the old shampoo commercial fabergé I told two friends and then they told two friends and yeah, yeah that was fair faucet.

02:41:12
Now that I think about it, that's how that stuff spreads. Was it fair faucet in that old? It was very fussy, yeah, I'll be dead, and then yeah, so that's how we got here and telling you the zoom and ecam uh, sort of collaboration it just changed been wonderful for us it makes it so easy, so it's a lifesaver.

02:41:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We use it for all the big shows, including this one. Thank you, doc, and your relationship with us is fantastic. We're very happy. Uh, same thing with jennifer pattison tooey. She appears every month with micah sargent on tech News Weekly and really ought to appear a lot more on our show. She's just fantastic At TheVergecom. She is Smart Home Mama, but I bet you have an ex-account called Chicken Mama somewhere just waiting to be launched. Right, she's got the chicken mug.

02:41:59 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
That's a good one. I might have to think about that one, yeah just think about that a little bit.

02:42:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We'll all be coming to you for the eggs thank you, jennifer, great to have you on. I appreciate to be here and then vindra hardwar, who is my uh, who's my shadow when I'm not here. Davindra will be, and that's what we love. He's been a great uh, uh, fill-in for me, senior editor and in gadget, and always a great guy. You're going to CES. You're crazy, but go ahead, have a good time.

02:42:25 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I'm crazy. I'm looking forward to it, but also doing a lot of like prepping for end of year film stuff too. So it's a crazy time of the year, yeah.

02:42:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I just saw Conclave and I really liked it. Incredible movie, yeah, but you know, so uh, davindra hosts a really good podcast called slash film. The film, yes, yeah, the film cast, I'm sorry, was part of slash film yeah, uh and uh so we always end up talking about movies a little bit, but I was. I was telling uh, lisa, I'm starting to feel like movies aren't enough anymore.

02:42:59
I'm getting spoiled by these five part, six part, seven part series yeah and I think conclave would have been better in in three or four I kind of disagree.

02:43:11 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
I kind of like the conclave is such a good example of a movie that is nice and tight and just very tight you're in and you're out, whereas that could easily be a six episode mini series and you'd be like you ran out of plot three episodes into the show and it was a great mystery, yeah, and a fantastic twist at the end.

02:43:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I just really enjoyed. We watched that. Good stuff.

02:43:28 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Good stuff if you like that, check out the young pope because that was a limited series. Loved the young pope with the jude law so that was good and I told lisa.

02:43:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I said you know, this is just like the Shoes of the Fisherman, which came out in 1968 with Anthony Quinn, and if you haven't seen that you should see that. And Conclave, because they're both about the papal succession conclave that they do when a pope dies.

02:43:53 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Anyway, I think they need to get rid of movies that have two parts, though, because I went to see Wicked and I'm like oh, did you Now?

02:43:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
did you know ahead of time that I did? I did?

02:44:02 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
But I'm glad I knew I had time, because I would have been really mad.

02:44:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I was pissed when Dune ended and it said like wait till next year, you'll find out what.

02:44:09 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
No, it's tough, it's tough, but I just saw Wicked too. It's like I was not looking forward to that at all.

02:44:23 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
Not a musical John Chu. I love musicals saw Wicked in the theater, in fact, I think I saw it on Broadway with Idina Menzel. I saw it in London with Idina Menzel, yeah, and Jennifer and.

02:44:26 - Devindra Hardawar (Guest)
Jennifer so good it was a good show but it was not two parts but it was very long it was very long. They think they brought in more stuff from the book and, like it's more, they're building up like a broader universe, you know oh no, because there's been way too much wicked advertising as is there, there has, I know if you like tight shows, leo, this gonna sound crazy and I swear I'm not shilling for jpt over there.

02:44:54 - Doc Rock (Guest)
You want to get brit box?

02:44:57 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
I was gonna say. That's exactly what I was going to say. I love BritBox.

02:44:59 - Doc Rock (Guest)
There's so much good stuff from BritBox, so good, I, like you, know sort of crime TV. It's crazy. But you know law and order style. But I'm really over Dick Wolf because he has come to the conclusion Wrap it all up in one episode.

02:45:11 - Jennifer Pattison Tuohy (Guest)
We need seven episodes.

02:45:12 - Doc Rock (Guest)
He comes to the conclusion that Americans don't know anything, so he gives all front. I know exactly what's happening within three minutes on breadbox you watch the good cop. Shows like tower, tower is incredible. Oh, I'm going to write that down. The passenger, the passenger I just finished watching, which is not really great.

02:45:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's kind of a great channel, yeah, so good yeah oh my god, like you're in there you think you?

02:45:33 - Doc Rock (Guest)
got it down, and then they'd be like pat right in the face.

02:45:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't know what you're wrong I like rural stories, like doc martin and all creatures, great and small, where everything's just quiet and calm and the worst thing that happens is jennifer's chickens got into davindra's garden and that's the passenger, so you'll love that that's basically sort of describes the passenger slow yes

02:45:56
thank you all three of you. What a great show. So much fun talking to you. We'll have you all back very soon, because this was, uh, this was my. This is quite great pleasure. We really appreciate it.

02:46:06
Thanks to all of you who are watching. Uh, as I mentioned, we stream on eight platforms now youtube, twitch, kick x, facebook, linkedin, tiktok. You can watch anywhere, uh, if you want to watch live every Sunday, 2 pm Pacific, 5 pm Eastern, 2200 UTC. But you don't have to watch live I know it's not convenient for a lot of people because it's a podcast you can download it and watch it whenever you want. Get copies of this show and all the shows we do at our website, twittv. All the shows also have a YouTube channel.

02:46:38
So if you go to twittv, click the button that says this Week in Tech, you'll see a link to our YouTube channel. That's a great place to get the video and to share clips. So if there's something you saw like you say oh, I really got to tell my friends why soccer is the beautiful game. Gunther Grundtrapf said so Then you can clip that and send it to them. I'm going to make Doc mad. Then you can clip that and send it to them. I'm going to make Doc mad and you can send it to them and then they will say, oh, this show is good, I've got to watch more of that guy in the Greek fishing hat.

02:47:11
What else? Oh, yes, you can subscribe in your favorite podcast client. That way you'll get it automatically. Any podcast client search for this Week in Tech or Twitter, and you'll have it. Thanks to our club members who very much made this show possible, I really appreciate it. I'm going to, if you're around at 9 pm Pacific, do a little more coding in the advent of code. I'll stream that on all of our channels and I will see you next week on this Week in Tech. As I have been saying now for 20 years, this show's been going on for almost 20 years. Another twit is in the can. This is amazing. Doing the twit, all right. Doing the twit, baby. Doing the twit, all right.