This Week in Space 207 Transcript

Please be advised that this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word-for-word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-free version of the show.

Tariq Malik [00:00:00]:
Coming up on This Week in Space, Blue Origin has a big miss with their new Glenn 3 launch. Even though they landed the rocket, there's hidden moons around Uranus and the secret may lie in its rings. And NASA's science budget under fire again with 47% cuts from the Trump administration. But we get down to what is at risk with the CEO of the Planetary Society, Jennifer Vaughn. Check it out. Don't miss it.

Rod Pyle [00:00:24]:
This is This Week in Space, episode number 207, recorded on April 24, 2026. What this again? Hello, and welcome to another episode of this Week in Space. This one we like to call the what this Again edition. And you'll soon know why. I'm Rod Pyle, editor-in-chief of Ad Astra magazine. I'm here with that paragon of virtue and intelligence, Tariq Malik of Space.com. how are you?

Tariq Malik [00:00:56]:
Hello, Rod. Hello, Rod. Hello, listeners. Hello. Hello, viewers. Hello, everybody out there, space fans everywhere.

Rod Pyle [00:01:02]:
Yeah, don't return the copy or anything. This week we'll be chatting with Jennifer Vaughn.

Tariq Malik [00:01:07]:
Ron is also great. Rod is great.

Rod Pyle [00:01:09]:
Thank you so sincere. Who's the new CEO of the Planetary Society? So this is really fun for us because she's only been in that job for a few months. She is the third leader of the Planetary Society, which has been around for decades. So this is a very. A big deal. So.

Tariq Malik [00:01:25]:
But no stranger, no stranger to the Society. She's been there for a long time.

Rod Pyle [00:01:28]:
That's true. She's. She's been there not since. Not so long after they started, actually. And we'll be talking about the NASA budget situation again, along with. With some other things because our administration is looking to chop NASA's budget again. But first, let's chop into a space joke. This one from Tom Kent's son, Tom.

Tariq Malik [00:01:50]:
Tom. Tom Kent's son.

Rod Pyle [00:01:52]:
He was named Tom. Tom. Tom Kent. Hey, Tarik.

Tariq Malik [00:01:58]:
Yes, Rod?

Rod Pyle [00:01:58]:
What did the scientists do when they got bored studying the sun moving across the sky?

Tariq Malik [00:02:03]:
I don't know what, what they called it a day. Oh, I love it. I love it. That's a good one. That's a good one. 24 hours of fun right there.

Rod Pyle [00:02:13]:
We've heard that some people want to send us spiraling into our sun when it's joke time in this show. But as always, you can help by sending us your best, worst or most incandescent space joke to TwistWit TV. And now on to Headline News.

Tariq Malik [00:02:31]:
Headline news. That's right. Nailed it again.

Rod Pyle [00:02:36]:
So our first story talks about, oh, so sad. The problems with Blue Origin's recent launch of New Glenn. They did get the rocket back.

Tariq Malik [00:02:46]:
They did, they did, yeah. You know, but they didn't actually get the satellite into space, which is kind of the whole reason for the launch. This actually happened on a Sunday, so this is where we record on Fridays. It was the start, top of the week. And it was really sad to watch this happen in real time. Blue Origin launched the New Glenn 3, their third mission ever. The first one was the test one. The second one was an attempt to get the rocket back.

Tariq Malik [00:03:16]:
They did that. And so this third mission was their first reflight. They made a really big deal about, about that and how ambitious and audacious that was. SpaceX. How many times, Rod? Like four or seven times, something like that. Took him a lot of times more than that. Yeah. To try to try to land the booster from, from, from orbit during an orbital launch.

Tariq Malik [00:03:37]:
And they nailed it. They, they, they launched New Glenn. The booster was called Never Tell me the Odds, which is a Star wars reference, by the way. And, and then of course, first Star Wars. Yeah, yeah, because that's, that's what Han Solo says. Right. By the way, the Falcon rockets are named after the Millennium Falcon. So there is like some Star wars bronus going on there.

Tariq Malik [00:03:59]:
So anyway, the TLDR though is that while that all worked great, something happened with the upper stage during the second burn. So this mission was carrying Bluebird 7. It is the seventh satellite built by AST Space Mobile. They're a direct to mobile Internet like provider so that you can get access to your phone Internet anywhere on the world. And they are building like truly ginormous satellites. So it's a big flat satellite that expands with solar arrays out like a, like the size of a tennis court, something like that. It is huge. And, and they're, they're building a whole constellation of these and they're really the, the scientists don't like it because it's, it's a huge amount of sunlight that they're reflecting.

Tariq Malik [00:04:41]:
It messes up the night sky. Anyway, it never got the chance though to sign because while it did separate the successfully from the upper stage during the second burn, because they have to reignite right during the second burn on that upper stage, it didn't fire its second engine properly. It has two BE3 engines. Those are the Blue Origin engines and it did not work right. Give them enough thrust to reach the right orbit maybe. Actually it was the initial burn. It may have been. I apologize for not figuring that out at a Time.

Tariq Malik [00:05:19]:
But the end result was that they ended up in an orbit that was too low to operate in. Not, not just too low to, to try to recover, you know, where it'd be the long haul, the slog to get up to orbit. They couldn't, didn't have enough propulsion on, on the spacecraft to be able to get up there. And so they had to call it a day. They were able to intentionally deorbit the satellite. And I think the big question is, is where, where the, the upper stage would end up. And the Space Force did report that it fell back to Earth and it burned up. But you don't want to see that, especially not on the third outing, especially when this summer you want to launch a mission to the moon with the Blue Moon Mark one uncrewed lander that they're going to launch for NASA and their customers.

Tariq Malik [00:06:03]:
That mission will not happen until they figure out what happened with this upper stage. And right now the FAA has grounded the rocket until they can figure it out.

Rod Pyle [00:06:10]:
So is there any indication of engine failure or just nothing yet.

Tariq Malik [00:06:13]:
Well, something went wrong with the engine. The engine fired. It just did not deliver the. It didn't fire like properly, it seems like. It doesn't seem like it wasn't working. It just didn't deliver the thrust. This is what Blue Origin has said. Now, it may be that the engine failed outright and that that is how you don't deliver the thrust, by not firing.

Rod Pyle [00:06:30]:
Is that every stage, a single engine?

Tariq Malik [00:06:31]:
No, it's got two be, three engines on it. So it has two of them. So you, in the space that you see it all the way clear through spacecraft separation, you can see those engines really clear. And they did say that they both ignited. So for whatever reason, it didn't deliver the thrust they needed. So, you know, keep your eyes on that. Because they wanted to launch a blue moon to the moon at the end of the summer. So August, September.

Tariq Malik [00:06:56]:
But if that happens, it means they've solved the problem. If it doesn't happen, then that not only puts Blue Origin's new Glenn issues like front and center, but also raises a lot of questions for the moon landing for Artemis 4, because this is supposed to be one of the contenders also for Artemis 3, supposed to go up there for artistry for docking tests. Right.

Rod Pyle [00:07:17]:
So we'll see. And, and none of us are exactly holding our breath for the SpaceX Lander at this point. All right, next up, one of Tarik's favorite subjects for his story, Hidden Moons Around Planet seven.

Tariq Malik [00:07:31]:
Oh, you didn't say It. No, it's Uranus. It's Uranus. Or Uranus. Right. Depending on how you. How you want to call it. But no, scientists.

Tariq Malik [00:07:41]:
There's a study that came out that says that these, some of the observations of the rings around Uranus, that they're seeing some formations that hint that there's other moons, hidden moons around the planet, you know, that they got, they found 29 to date and that there might be more based on some of the, some of the. I guess it's like the perturbations or whatnot of the rings. They're not bright like Saturn's, you know, they're really hard to see. But they know that they're there. In fact, we've known that they're there as long as I've been on this planet because they were first discovered in 1977 by, I think, Voyager 2. Right.

Rod Pyle [00:08:21]:
But I remember, I think when I was a kid, they had Uranus listed as having a moon, which is Triton.

Tariq Malik [00:08:27]:
Yeah, yeah. Now they got 29. Now they got 29. Yeah. Voyager 2. Yeah. Took the first one. And so they have, they, they have these, these rings.

Tariq Malik [00:08:37]:
They're named, they got weird names. They're named after, like, math things, you know, but they, they're these, these outermost rings. I think it's called Mew Mew. And new. They sound like Pokemon. But anyway, they were found in 2003 and 2005 by, by SETI, the SETI Institute's Mark Showalter. And, and so they. Oh, it's the Greek Alphabet.

Tariq Malik [00:09:01]:
There you go. It's not Pokemon at all. But they, they, they turned to look at them and they took infrared data, and that's where they were able to see some, some weird, some weird stuff in how they reflect light. And by, by trying to study the changes in that light reflection. That's why they think that there might be more moons than we thought, which would be really exciting to just keep finding more moons because it seems like they keep finding more moons around Uranus, Neptune, Saturn. Like, like every other year we look harder, we find a lot more. So that'd be really exciting to see. But I thought it was fun because it's too useful.

Tariq Malik [00:09:37]:
I love Uranus. I love your. Okay.

Rod Pyle [00:09:39]:
Of course you do. And speak. Speaking of fun stories, you and the Hubble Space Telescope almost share a birthday. How about.

Tariq Malik [00:09:47]:
That's right. Well, we do technically share a birthday because my birthday is deployment day, so. But as you and I are recording this today, Rod, the Hubble Space telescope celebrates its 36th birthday Happy birthday, Hubble Space Telescope. And what's really interesting is that in 2009, when NASA flew STS 125, that was the last and final Hubble servicing mission with the space shuttle. That mission was expected to extend Hubble's life by at least five years, most likely 10 years. And on the out, on the outside end, 15 years. And, and now here we are, 17 years later. I have raised an entire human in the time it has been since that, since that servicing mission.

Tariq Malik [00:10:30]:
And it seems like it's doing OK. Okay, not as, not as okay as Voyager 1. They turned another one of its instruments off, which is also as old as I am.

Rod Pyle [00:10:39]:
But that, that's a decision. It was long in the making.

Tariq Malik [00:10:42]:
Yeah, exactly. They're trying to keep it just alive. But that also happened this week. I should have, should have put that on the list. So.

Rod Pyle [00:10:50]:
And speaking of your, your young human, the big news for the week is Tarik places third in Pinewood Derby for Girl Scouts.

Tariq Malik [00:10:59]:
That's right. For people that are watching, you can see my DeLorean Pinewood Derby car that I made.

Rod Pyle [00:11:04]:
Wow.

Tariq Malik [00:11:05]:
My daughter's Girl Scout contest. They let parents also compete. I got third fastest overall and second fastest in the parent division. Zadie won her division. Her like senior cadet Ambassador division with the fastest car and she won best paycheck.

Rod Pyle [00:11:24]:
Now, isn't the fastest one generally, depending how the track is laid out, the one with the most mass. Wouldn't it make sense just to paint the block of two by four, call it a day?

Tariq Malik [00:11:34]:
No, they all have the same mass. There's an upper limit. You can only have, you can only be 5,5 ounces. That's like the maximum weight that you can have. So it matters pretty much where you place it. That's about all that really matters is where you put the weight on the, on the block. So just because you want, as, as my daughter told me, you want to take all your kinetic energy and, or all your potential energy and turn it into kinetic energy as efficiently as possible to go as fast as possible. And that is how you win because, you know, she pays attention in physics.

Rod Pyle [00:12:03]:
That sounds like a personal problem to me. All right, well, speaking of personal problems, we'll be back in a moment to talk about NASA's budget woes for 2027. Stay with us. And we are back with Jennifer Vaughn, the CEO of the Planetary Society. Jennifer, thanks for joining us.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:12:20]:
Oh, thank you so much. It's such an honor to be here.

Rod Pyle [00:12:22]:
Well, it's such an honor to be speaking to the new CEO of the Planetary Society. So let's just talk for a second to who are your predecessors?

Jennifer Vaughn [00:12:32]:
So as far as leadership within the organization, executive leadership, it's just Louis Friedman, one of our founders, and then Bill Nye. That's it. So I'm number three.

Rod Pyle [00:12:43]:
Wow.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:12:44]:
I know.

Rod Pyle [00:12:45]:
The organization's 40 years old, roughly.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:12:49]:
Actually 46. We are looking ahead to our 50th anniversary in 2030. Already getting excited about that. So it's quite an honor. It's quite an honor.

Rod Pyle [00:12:59]:
You're as old as Voyager and it's older than you.

Tariq Malik [00:13:01]:
How about that?

Jennifer Vaughn [00:13:03]:
Yeah, exactly.

Rod Pyle [00:13:04]:
So how's it going so far? I mean, you jumped in at a rather raucous time for space organizations.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:13:10]:
It is. It's so raucous. But again, the thing that's really different right now is just the high that we're all riding. This is such an exciting time in space. There's so much happening and there's this horrible threat to our future, especially the scientific exploration of space, which is what we're all about. So it is a really energized time. I'm used to it in many ways. So last year, of course, we were fighting similar threats to our future in space.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:13:45]:
But what's nice this time is that we also just have all the joy, just the pure joy and pride that comes with the successful Artemis 2 mission.

Rod Pyle [00:13:56]:
Well, and I should point out, you're not new to the Planetary Society. You're new to being the chief of the Planetary Society. You've been there for well over a decade, I think. Right. Or about a decade.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:14:07]:
I think that almost three. So I.

Tariq Malik [00:14:11]:
97. 97.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:14:12]:
Rod, at the end of this year, it's because actually the last few days. 96. So at the end of this year, I will be celebrating 30 years with the Planetary Society. It's just astounding. Time is amazing, isn't it? Just keeps moving, moving forward. Yeah.

Rod Pyle [00:14:28]:
Whether you like it or not.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:14:29]:
Yeah.

Rod Pyle [00:14:29]:
All right. Well, that's great. I'm glad things are going well. We're so happy to have you here. And Tariq has a question that he loves to ask.

Tariq Malik [00:14:36]:
I did. Yeah. I was actually really surprised, Jennifer, at the. The very parallel path that it seems like, like, like you have had to your leadership role and then to kind of like my own. And this could be like a bit of transposition at space because I also started at as like, I think you were an editorial assistant. Right. On the Planetary Report is what I was reading. And then managing editor and then director of publications and Then now, like the Grand Poobah.

Tariq Malik [00:15:06]:
Right. And, and, and I was also like an intern@space.com before, like, climbing those ranks or just hanging on for dear life, I guess you would say, you know, over, over the decades there. But my, my, the typical question that I like to ask folks who come on to talk space with Rod and I is kind of how they got there in the first place. So, you know, you've, you've, you've, you've. I think you, you became CEO at the Planetary Society in February, I believe. Right. And, and I'm just curious in, you know, 96, 97. I think you mentioned the latter part of 96.

Tariq Malik [00:15:43]:
Like, how did you get to that point in space in the first place? Was it something that you were, like, always from, like, a little kid on, like, a laser beam course to find something there? Or as with some of our guests, did you find it later in life, you know, as a big professional? What do you call that? Like a left turn to Albuquerque or whatever that Bugs Bunny would say?

Jennifer Vaughn [00:16:08]:
I went to Albuquerque. For sure. For sure, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So first off, I love that you asked your guests this. This is such a. It's something that we also always want to know.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:16:18]:
So at the planetary site, we call it our space love story or our orig. And it's so fun to hear how people first feel the spark when that happens to them and then how it unfolds over time. And so for me, surprise. A surprise set of occurrences. I like to say I have two of two space love stories. So one is what put me on the path, and one is my conversion story. So one. The other one is the one that made me realize I don't want to do anything else but this.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:16:54]:
So the first one is mostly kind of happened in a moment of family tragedy and maybe my first sense of life and death. And what does this all mean? And so this is kind of, you know, in my mid-20s, and I had lived a very privileged life where I hadn't had to focus on those things until then. And it was something in that moment and a fabulous poetry teacher that I had at the time that lit the spark. And so I had been studying literature and poetry, American poetry specifically, and I had been working on Adrienne Rich's poem Orion. And I had been doing my own counter Orion piece as well. And this poetry teacher knew I was going through a tough time with my mother, who had just recently had a very significant stroke and might not make it. And he just came to me in a Moment of compassion and said, you know, I think maybe you're not sleeping so well these days. I don't sleep well either.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:17:58]:
So what I do is I learn about the stars. So here is the 90s. So here's a stack of papers, because everything was a paper. Here's a stack of papers all about the Orion, all about Orion and the Orion Nebula. And it just started to spark this interest in me because I also was having my own personal conversation about the night sky and the consistency of it all. And in my little moment of crises, how all of humankind has been looking up at the same sky and going through these tough moments and these moments of joy, it just was helping to put everything together for me in a moment when I needed it most. So I call that kind of like the more spiritual awakening that opened my mind enough to even consider about learning more. It was the thing that started me down this path.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:18:53]:
So then, when the Planetary Society had an opportunity to take what I had been thinking I wanted to do, which was publishing with this new interest, which is I want to learn more about basic astronomy, and I want to learn more about my place in space. I thought, well, this is a good start for me. So this is. I'll get out of school and onto this career path. I'll do some real publishing in an area of interest of mine. And then six months into my job, that was the conversion moment, which is when. Or seven months, I should say, when Pathfinder landed on Mars. So when Pathfinder landed on Mars, everything changed because I was there with about 5,000 other enthusiasts to watch that landing, recognizing we hadn't been there since Viking, recognizing this huge gap.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:19:42]:
So kind of like an Artemis 2 moment, frankly, there's this huge gap between what we had been doing and what was happening right then and there. And then just watching that first image come down, kind of just like filling in line by line, because it was very slow process back then to get the image, like, fully resolved and recognizing this is the first time humankind has ever laid eyes on this site. This is. I'm exploring. I'm an explorer. You're an explorer. We're all an explorer. And I realized in that moment, what could be more exciting than this? This is truly what I want to be doing.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:20:17]:
And that was my conversion moment. So long with a dam, sir. To say that. Yeah.

Tariq Malik [00:20:23]:
July 4th, 1997. So is what you're talking about.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:20:27]:
Yeah.

Tariq Malik [00:20:27]:
They launched fireworks off the top of the radio tower in Sacramento to celebrate for that, the landing. I remember that. Yeah. Because I was Driving to San Francisco that same day, listening to it on the, on the, on the radio. So.

Rod Pyle [00:20:39]:
Well, I'm old enough to remember the first picture actually coming back from Viking because I had, I grown up around Caltech and I knew how to sneak into the auditorium because it was supposed to be journalists only and blah, blah, blah, at Caltech, not at jpl. And boy, you talk about slow. That one came in. It was different than Pathfinders, though. It came in vertical strip by vertical strip because it was that panning camera set they had. And the part of the story that I love to tell is the journalists are all leaning forward and they're staring. And the first thing they realize is it's black and white and there's kind of a. And then the second thing they realize is it's staring at the foot pad because the engineers want to see what they landed on and is it stable? And the journalists were like, oh, come on.

Rod Pyle [00:21:26]:
They were really quite, quite.

Tariq Malik [00:21:28]:
They had to color it in with like.

Rod Pyle [00:21:32]:
And then they got the horizon picture and the colors were wrong. And so Sagan had to come and say, well, actually the colors are. We're going to adjust them. And it's like, oh, come on. Anyway, that is a lovely origin story.

Tariq Malik [00:21:44]:
Yeah. And it's a far cry from like when Curiosity landed. And like, the pictures were like in like a minute, like they were just there, there they all are. So.

Rod Pyle [00:21:52]:
Well. But also, Tariq, I got to point out how much better and more laced with drama her story is than you and me just saying we couldn't pass up higher mathematics.

Tariq Malik [00:22:01]:
I know, I know.

Rod Pyle [00:22:05]:
Yours was a story of inspiration. Ours was a story of blunt headed failure. We're going to, we're going to go right into a break here and we'll be right back. So don't go anywhere. Stand by. So we're calling this episode what this again, because the what this again is you're taking another run at the NASA budget and it's, it's like a cartoon, you know, the exact same repeat of what we saw last year at just about the same numbers, except this time it's right after this dazzling success with Artemis 2. So maybe you could walk us through what's going on and then we'll get to your concerns.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:22:42]:
Yeah, yeah. So indeed, just two days after that just iconic launch, OMB came out with another slash budget. And we're looking at more than 20% to NASA overall, but we're looking at 46 or 47% to NASA science. And this is after Congress wholeheartedly rejected those cuts just a couple months ago for the previous year. So they didn't put any thought into this budget. From what we can tell. They really just cut and paste from the previous one. It's not at all responsive to what happened last year.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:23:26]:
And I think they're just not paying attention. And so we are trying to make everyone pay attention to say this is not thoughtful, this is not strategic, this is a very lazy and thoughtless way of trying to assert our continued leadership in space. So yeah, so sorry. And maybe I could say too where we are with things, we really think that this 27 budget is going nowhere. So I should say that very, very clearly, it's going nowhere with the Congress.

Tariq Malik [00:23:58]:
Yeah, you know, I was actually, I was actually going to save this for a later question, but I know that you and the Society had some, some events like in the Capitol earlier, earlier this week and, and the NASA administrator, Jared Isaacman had his first budget hearing, I guess his first budget hearing ever because he barely took charge, you know, at the top of the year for, for the, for the process. And from what I was able to hear in at least that hearing because unfortunately I wasn't able to attend the events. You know, I, I'm pretty sure at least one member of Congress called the budget dead on arrival, like out loud, like to the administrator. And I'm curious what the reaction the Society, you and the Society received at your events because it, it seems like there's not a lot of appetite for what you are saying like this, this cut and paste. We're just, especially in the face of a success like Artemis 2 for planetary exploration and lunar exploration to then just kind of go back to what didn't work last year, it seems.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:25:06]:
Yeah, so we indeed we just got back from our annual day of action and so what that is, is everyday people come together to express their enthusiasm and support and again for our case, for the scientific exploration of space. So we really are focused on that aspect, space exploration. So these people arrive on their own time and their own dime. So this is completely a voluntary effort to be able to walk in as a constituent and make their case. We train them the day before and they are extraordinary. So again and again we hear, wait, these aren't professionals walking in the door. They are so prepared and they're so effective in their talking points and they received just overwhelmingly supportive responses from those that they were speaking with. So I'd say that's always the case, but I feel like even more so this time because they are just, it was an overwhelming rejection of these cuts for 2026, that again happened maybe six weeks ago, it was so recent.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:26:19]:
So therefore they're walking and saying, yeah, I already agree with you. I already, I already made these votes. I already made this happen for 26. It's not going to happen in 27. And so our job is to always say, this proposal is not the way to go. So our job is to stand up to sound the alarms and make sure that everyone understands that this proposal should not move forward. Even if we believe that everyone in Congress is already on board and they're saying, yep, we're going to make sure this doesn't happen. We also are really bringing home the point that timing matters because this ping pong approach is damaging and this happened in 26 in a big way.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:27:06]:
Even if Congress comes in and says, now, forget it, we're the ones who control the purse. We're telling you, spend the money. By then, cuts have already happened. People have already been scared about the jobs and decided to look elsewhere because they feel like they're not on a stable pathway right now for their own career. So the damage gets done regardless. So you have to get them to act and get them to act very quickly and clearly. And they are, that first hearing really showed it clearly that both the chair and the ranking member were just out in front saying, nope, not going to happen.

Rod Pyle [00:27:43]:
And you bring up a good point of, you know, the brain drain that happens when these things occur. And these are people by and large who are already working at below retail for what they could be doing in private industry. I want to ask a little later if we can go through some of the programs that, that we would lose if this went through, which hopefully it won't. But I wonder if before that, and this is something we talk about a fair amount at the National Space Society too, at least, at least my small group with the magazine. You know, there seems to be this general turn, and it's kind of subtle, or maybe not so subtle, but of the, of the American body politic towards kind of thumbs down on science, thumbs down on medical science, thumbs down on, you know, don't push off this higher education stuff on me. I'm generalizing a lot here, but it worries me a bit. And I feel like maybe that's part of where some of this is coming from, this sort of pushback on science and fact. And if it doesn't impact my daily life between the time I get up out of bed and the time I come home and go to bed, it's not important.

Rod Pyle [00:28:51]:
It's a smaller worldview, I guess.

Tariq Malik [00:28:54]:
Yeah.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:28:54]:
And of course it does affect your daily life, but it is harder to make those promises for the future because it's the whole point about true innovation and leadership. You don't know yet all of the benefits. But of course we're touched every day, all day by the spinoff benefits to extraordinary science and technology. So I'm very worried about this shift in messaging. I was thinking we spent a lot of time thinking about the drivers for why we do any of this in space. And I think that there's a lot of answers out there right now and that's okay. But what we're losing is kind of like the whole point that why we got started to begin with. And again, you could argue that Apollo had certainly very geopolitical reasons why we were doing Apollo.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:29:54]:
But when it came to mariners, when it came to Viking, when it came to Voyager, Pioneer Voyager, that was really our leadership in extraordinary science and technology for the deeper understanding of the cosmos and our place within it. I mean that it wasn't in question. So when Carl Sagan was doing his Cosmos series back in the 80s, there was an understanding of that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to uncover the mysteries of the cosmos one step at a time. And now it is one of many answers for why we do what we do. But I feel like it's being drowned out, like you're just not hearing that anymore. That the whole point, and I felt like saying that with some of my own meetings on the Hill of like it's kind of the whole point is we're, we're exploring space because we don't know it all, we don't understand it all. And every time we understand something, we understand something more.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:30:52]:
For us here on Earth and for, for the humans here, there's, there's this constant back and forth taking place when you're pushing the bounds of science and technology. This is why we, we do it as for humanity. And of course there's all kinds of economic benefits and personal day to day benefits. And so I worry a lot, I worry a lot about the shifts in how we're thinking about space and how people are wanting to categorize it these days as trying to put it into separate boxes.

Rod Pyle [00:31:27]:
Well, it's interesting you mentioned this. Something I write about quite a bit is the geopolitical nature of the Apollo program. You know, we get people on the show sometimes or I talk to people, the conferences that I go to, who tell me oh, you know, the nation was aligned behind Apollo in the 1960s, and it was a golden age. Will never be like that again. And I gotta remind them, if you look at the polls, it's about the same now as it was then. It's about 50.

Tariq Malik [00:31:50]:
50.

Rod Pyle [00:31:51]:
Artemis is also a very geopolitical program. And if I'm going in to talk to some of the Congress people, one of the things I'm sure you mentioned I would mention is, look, you guys keep wagging your tongues about American exceptionalism, I don't disagree. However, it's a thinner margin than it's ever been before. And if you want to keep pointing to that, fund the robotic program that happens out on the west coast of the United States, because that's something for a long time we did better than anybody else. And that margin's getting thinner, too. And I think that's just so important. But it often gets lost in the noise. But of course, that would be one of the biggest losers if these cuts went through.

Rod Pyle [00:32:30]:
Speaking of which, we have to cut to a break, but we'll be right back for, for your response and Tariq's next question. So standby. Okay. So, Jen, I sort of cut you off there. So. So what do you have to say about that?

Jennifer Vaughn [00:32:43]:
Yeah, well, one, I completely agree with your assessment, not surprisingly. But I do also want to note that while the Jeffrey Baltim Laboratory on the west coast is clearly a, a clear leader in robotic, robotic exploration is actually spread out all over the country. So we have many different universities and other institutions, for instance, Goddard and apl, Johns Hopkins apl, that are doing just outstanding robotic work as well. And so this drive for our scientific exploration of deep space, which really has to be done through robotic spacecraft, that is an area in which we have been developing and growing over these decades. And, and those groups all over the country will be severely impacted if these cuts were to go through, which they won't.

Tariq Malik [00:33:41]:
You know, Jennifer, you reminded me that there may be a lot of our listeners who don't recall, like, how widespread the science cuts were last year. And then here we are again. And I'm just kind of curious as like a primer. Cause I think you mentioned on the Society site that there's like 50 plus missions that are the, that are at risk from such, such, such drastic cuts to NASA science if there's some kind of really big examples. Because when I was at AAS last year, and this is just last year, the James Webb Space Telescope at that point in time, not even five years, not even Done with their primary mission. We're being told get ready for 20% budget cuts. Those, those did get requested, but I think they got rejected. Hubble was put on the same watch.

Tariq Malik [00:34:29]:
And it's Hubble's birthday today, you know, and, and, and, and, and I would expect that there, there'd be cuts. You know, that kind of, that kind of, you know, background there as continue, because that's what we saw last year. But are there some, like, big risks that, that you and the society see after seeing kind of that brain drain that Rod was talking and you were talking about earlier from last year? That really would be like a bridge too far in terms of like the US capability for planetary science or NASA's capability for this science. I should say, you know, if, if this goes into action. Good. That it seems like it's not from the lawmakers, but, but, you know, I think that our readers, that our listeners really need to know, like, what's at risk again and, and be as tired as we are about it.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:35:20]:
So yeah, I think I might, I might categorize that into three different segments. So these potential cuts. So one, there is the just shutting things down. So perfectly good operating missions that are doing important work, just abandoning those. Chandra, it's one certainly the Osiris Rex, the Apex mission just done. Our involvement even with something like Mars Odyssey also done. So we have all of these situations where we have perfectly good spacecraft and I think our team, who's really done all the research too, about what would be impacted because this particular budget not very transparent. So it's not very clear.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:36:11]:
So it was our team that went through all the details to come up with what actually would be affected. Our role with Rosalind Franklin. New Horizons. New Horizons shutting down. New Horizons again.

Tariq Malik [00:36:26]:
Again.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:36:28]:
Again. So in Juneau, Juno also at risk of being shut down.

Tariq Malik [00:36:33]:
Yeah.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:36:34]:
So I think they estimated something along the lines of $13 billion that has already been invested in these perfectly good operating missions. That. Which we would just turn our back on because we wanted a short in this one area. It's ridiculous. So there's that there's the missions that are in development that would be shut down. And so the things that we already know immediately is Venus. And here we had all this promise of getting out to Venus, but not just one mission, but two. And now both of those would be cut.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:37:08]:
And so there's that threat. We haven't really even got off into running with Uranus yet. That would be all shut down as well. Of course, Mars amphibian return. We all know Mars Sample return has been very explicitly pulled out as being dead. So these are all major new work that wouldn't advance. And then I'd say there's a third bucket that we are also equally as concerned about, maybe, maybe even more. I don't know.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:37:38]:
They're all very concerning, which is there's nothing coming down in the pipeline. So there's been no new calls for discovery missions, low cost discovery missions, no new call for a new frontiers. There are no new grants being released. There's no pipeline. And so we have built up this expertise over the last 60 years, growing and growing and growing our expertise in robotic exploration. If there's nothing coming down. Talk about brain drain.

Tariq Malik [00:38:11]:
You know what this sounds like to me and Rod, this might be familiar to you too, but, you know, so we're all agog at how great Artemis 2 was and how astronauts flew around the moon first time in decades. That's great. But Rod and I have talked to our listeners ad nauseam about how it took like 18 years to get there. Right. And, and there was this whole big, this whole big discussion about what the plan was going to be. And then nothing ever happened. And then 2011 hits on the human space flight side. There's no space shuttle anymore.

Tariq Malik [00:38:42]:
And everyone is surprised. Everyone is surprised. Oh my gosh. There's no, we don't have a way to get our astronauts. How could this happen?

Jennifer Vaughn [00:38:51]:
How?

Tariq Malik [00:38:52]:
You know, I've been in office for the last 10 years and I said no to all of the funding votes for that, but now we can't. Now, now I'm really upset. But there's going to be a point now, from the scenario, Jennifer, that you just laid out, that it's not going to be, it's going to be like the opposite where it's going to be, oh, there's nothing new from Mars. I guess we don't want to go anymore. Oh, there's nothing new from, from like Uranus, Europa. You know, what if they find something awesome with this clipper and there's no way you can, like, you need to be ready. You know, I always get excited because, you know, of science fiction. But wait, no, it's not going to be that.

Tariq Malik [00:39:30]:
I know my first story I ever wrote for Space.com was about Europa and the ocean. And so it's going to be spectacular when they get there. But if you don't have something cooking to get down there on the ground or the ice, I should say, you know, ready for whatever you find now, then you're going to be 10 years behind when you find it. Right. And that's the case for all of these things. Those samples from Perseverance are just sitting there on the surface of Mars. Man.

Rod Pyle [00:39:57]:
Why don't we get us started on that?

Jennifer Vaughn [00:39:59]:
Exactly. They're there. And not only were they very carefully selected and all that, we have now found some really intriguing evidence of potential signs of past life. The only way to know is bring it back and then use the full suite of Earth instrumentation to analyze, reanalyze, reanalyze, to really get a sense of what are we looking at. And, and so, yeah, get, get those home.

Tariq Malik [00:40:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. So I just, I don't. I'm not sure if I had a question in there. It's just that I don't feel that we should stand for. That Is.

Rod Pyle [00:40:39]:
That was a long, long question. I. I mean, you know, we could, we could do a whole segment or a whole episode actually on, on the failure of Mars sample return and the drama around Viper, which just, just twists my head around. But I think the thing, Tariq, that you touched on that drives me nuts is I would just divide this thing about Congress, Congressional reaction a little bit more. It tends to be the congressman or senator looking to the left and right and saying, how could you let this happen? It's like, well, we kind of all let it happen, except for the Planetary Society and the National Space Society and the association for Space Development members who went out there and, you know, campaigned to keep this stuff going against great odds. And I will say. And then we're going to go back to Jennifer because she's our guest. But I will say I was on our soapbox.

Rod Pyle [00:41:29]:
Now, Jennifer, I'd written this book about curiosity in 2012 or 2014, whenever it was, spent a couple of years embedded at jpl, all this stuff. So I really got to know those folks well. And then perseverance comes around and I'm hearing about, you know, how they're going to drill for the samples and store them and leave them behind and in known places so we could pick them up. And it's like, well, I asked them all the same thing. Is there a budget for the sample return? They kind of said. And I thought it was stunning that that mission flew. And I'm sure there's a story behind, you know, they had more conditional approval before they made the decision and locked the tech in or whatever. But that thing flew without knowing if we were going to be able to get the samples back.

Rod Pyle [00:42:11]:
Everybody was confident, and here we are, and we have samples sitting on Mars, that if the Chinese can figure out how to land at that latitude and that altitude, maybe they'll go pick them up for us, which would be a little weird.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:42:24]:
Yeah, I more suspect that they'll just go do their own and we'll ignore our samples. So.

Rod Pyle [00:42:31]:
But think of the geopolitical coup that would be for them. It's like, hey, you left this behind.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:42:36]:
That would be. Yeah, that would be. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just such an interesting. So I love our system. I am a US citizen and I love the US system for so many reasons. However, in this one area, when you really have to think long term, you have to think in terms of decades. It makes it very easy for the system that we've set up to have us fall behind.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:43:06]:
Because that's where I see, from my very limited viewpoint, I get that. That's how I see the difference between what's happening in China and what's happening here. China can set out 100 year plan and they can actually commit to it and then there's no question of will the funding be there, will the commitment be there to keep moving on these with us. We are always in this push pull situation of here's what we want to do. Okay, we think we can do that. No, we're not sure we can do that. Well, maybe next time we can do that. And so we are unable to just take that slow and steady approach that we are seeing at least one other nation doing right now.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:43:47]:
And probably others will be coming up as well. And so I believe in all space exploration. And so I'm happy when anyone's doing amazing work and sharing it with the world. So I'm not, I'm not necessarily dug in on some sort of a space race, but I do really believe that what the US has been able to deliver is extraordinary. It is trailblazing leadership. And why would you ever want to lose that? Why would you ever want to give that up? And so I think we need this, we need longer term commitments here to what we're trying to do in space.

Rod Pyle [00:44:25]:
Well, and I would just add as a coda, what you also don't see China or India or the others doing is, yeah, I know we spent 2 billion on that, but let's cancel it.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:44:36]:
Yeah, exactly.

Rod Pyle [00:44:38]:
This is just like a sock to the gut every time it happens and, and not always for the best of reasons. All right, I'm not going to go off on a rant about that because I've done that many times before.

Tariq Malik [00:44:48]:
I can see it coming. I can see you, you're building up,

Rod Pyle [00:44:52]:
you know, but let's go off onto a break instead. And we'll be right back.

Tariq Malik [00:44:57]:
So, Jennifer, you know, we've kind of outlined what the challenge is now and what the society's positions are on things. And I'm very curious about kind of what comes next and for people that want to speak out, that haven't had the chance yet, like, where their opportunities are. And, and like one other kind of side of this is that when all of the cuts were first proposed and then shot down in Congress last year, NASA didn't have any leadership at all. And now, now they actually have an administrator in Jared Isaacman. He just came out for a big push about moon exploration with their, at the ignition event that I was there for. And I'm curious if, like, what, what, what comes next for both of those things, you know, is this an opportunity for NASA's new leadership to kind of put a stick in the, what do we say? Is it a stick in the mud? A stick in the, a line in the sand. Sorry, to draw a line. To draw a line in the sand to say, look, we're trying to do this thing for the moon, but we're not going to give on these ones.

Tariq Malik [00:45:59]:
Or, or should should the public, the folks that are listening now, be looking at upcoming meetings or hearings for where they can write into their congressperson, their Senate seat holder, and, and say, hey, like, this is not what I voted for, like, you need to listen to me kind of thing.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:46:18]:
Yeah, great questions. And, and so let me take the last one first, which is, yes, it's still time to make your voice heard. So there's a whole period right now, and I think we're starting to estimate that maybe it'll wrap by June, but there's a whole period of hearings. In fact, I think Administrator Isaacman used the term of like a testimony tour or something that he's on. So he's going to have to talk to different committees. Appropriations is coming up, I believe, on Monday. And then there's interactions with the Senate. There's going to be conferencing.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:46:57]:
So a lot has to happen. But it's on a pretty accelerated timeline. That's one thing that we weren't really expecting it to be this accelerated and we're so happy to see it because timing matters. So a swift, clear action from Congress matters. So I'd say if you've got things to say about this, if NASA's budget and NASA's science budget specifically, if this really matters to you please speak out. There are tools on the Planetary Society website. They're super easy to use, free just in our Take Action section. If you go to planetary.org, take action, you can find it, you can edit the letter to whatever you wanted to say.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:47:39]:
We just have done the back end work for you to make it easy. But this is a chance for you to have your voice out there. So speak up, Speak up, Speak up. We're continuing to work all of our channels and our relationships as well to make sure that we don't lose track of this very important outcome. We don't want people to get distracted with all the other things that are going on in the world and in this country. So we want to make sure that this is the message that we're paying attention to. But the other point about leadership, I frankly am really excited about this leadership. It's too soon to know, right? It's way too soon to know.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:48:19]:
But administrator Isaacman has made some really good moves so far in my opinion because he has shown boldness, he has shown vision. He stepped out with ignition day before the budget dropped, which was a little confusing, I think.

Tariq Malik [00:48:38]:
A little.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:48:38]:
You know, a lot of us like kind of cocked our head with this. I'm like, wait, this is like so much more. How does this pair up? And I looked at that as a move to say, hey, I've got vision here. I see a pathway to success and with more investment. And so even though he is on record right now saying again and again, we can do more with less, I also recognize the role of administration appointee like this. You need to be aligned. And I understand that. And he's also, it's also true we can do more with our money.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:49:18]:
I wouldn't say we can do more with less, but we can do more with the, with, with study funding. There's, there are efficiencies and there's something about this era where, where everything is so kind of upside down, where no one knows like where, what to depend on right now. It's, it's a, it's an uncomfortable space to be. But in those uncomfortable moments, you also can create things that are better. Yeah. So because you have to, because you're open minded. When everything's easy, when everything's going great, it's like why, why, why rock the boat here? But when the boat is upside down, well then you're looking for everything you can do to make this, make this right again. And so I think that there's a lot of creative energy going into how do we do things better? And I think that.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:50:11]:
I think Isaac man is at the head of that right now. And then to pair that with the success of Artemis. Thank goodness. For so many reasons, Artemis was as successful as it was. But I mean, to pair that all together, I'm actually feeling. I feel like this could be really good. But again, time will tell. Don't know yet.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:50:33]:
But I am very happy we have leadership in place, and I'm very happy we have bold leadership in place.

Tariq Malik [00:50:38]:
Yeah, I should point out that ignition event. I believe he announced 29 launches to the moon and 22 moon landings, robotic people or otherwise, in the next. In the next three years, which is. It just sounds crazy, but it does. At least from, like, if I'm a planetary scientist wondering, like, about how much more about the moon I can find out, I think I'd be really excited right now from that standpoint, so.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:51:03]:
For sure, yeah. But also confused, too, because of this idea of, well, we're going to go, go, go. But scientists wants to know, like, why we're going to. Science wants to say, we're going to look for these things and to do these things. And then you build around that instead of like, well, we're just gonna drop a bunch of hardware on there, have some science that can just ride along. What do you have this whole idea of what do you have on the shelf? That's really not the optimal way to do things. You want to actually have the question in mind first and then send your. Your science package.

Rod Pyle [00:51:40]:
And it's interesting you mentioned that because there was, at least for me, a small sense of that when we were talking, I were at the Johnson Space center for Artemis to talking about the science. I mean, it was an engineering mission. Right. But it's like, oh, oh, oh, and we're going to take some cameras and, and we'll be able to see the north and South Pole with eyes. And we haven't done that before. And they really, they were kind of stretching it a bit. But that's not my question. My question is you guys have brought in a ray of sunshine in the discussion, and as Tariq knows, it's my job to bring the clouds back.

Rod Pyle [00:52:11]:
Do you feel, you know, given while these deliberations about the budget are going on and all the histrionics around that, as you mentioned, kind of at the opening, there are these sort of quiet cuts that ripple through the agency, these forced retirements, the people just leaving out of despondency. I mean, I worked at JPL for years. I hadn't been up there for quite a while. I went up a while back and I have to say the mood was a little somber and there were a lot of empty offices where there were people I used to know working there. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there's some permanence to this. You don't get those people back. You might get one young person with not very much experience coming in to cover the spot of that seasoned administrator or engineer or scientist that, that retired. But there's a, I think, I don't know the numbers, but it appears to me there is a net brain drain that's pretty severe, especially in unmanned robotic exploration.

Tariq Malik [00:53:12]:
Nice catch that, Rod. Nice catch.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:53:14]:
Yeah, no, I agree, I agree there is, there's serious damage that's already been done. And to go back to Isaacman for another moment, what I hear him saying occasionally is that NASA has to do things no one else can do. And I agree with that wholeheartedly. And part of what no one else can do is this extraordinary deep space science and exploration. And you don't do that without. By kicking out all of your senior team, I mean, the ones who actually know this, you want to pair them with the new generation. You want, you want the young innovators. Absolutely.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:53:58]:
But you don't want to only have that because then you're stepping backward in time. You may as well continue moving forward with all of the knowledge that we've already built up and have the young innovators coming along.

Rod Pyle [00:54:11]:
I think that's a great answer and I have to admit to being a little misled myself. Remember, as you mentioned earlier, Mars Pathfinder, if you see the behind the scenes video of that, which features two or three people predominantly, it was a very young, driven, cheap, fast, under the radar, off the record from a number of the people involved, kind of. NASA didn't really know what we were doing until it was too late to say no kind of mission, which is great for some, some things. I mean, it was really successful, but it had very well defined constraints on what it was supposed to do. Go there, drive off the lander, look around, that's enough, that's success. And it did much better than that, of course, as they all do. But you're right, you need these senior people, especially for these big flagship missions. And I'm going to stop talking now, Tariq, go forth.

Tariq Malik [00:55:07]:
Well, you know, we're kind of at that point now in the episode where we probably should let our listeners, Jennifer, know that if they would like to know more about the Society or to get involved, like how to do that. And when I was looking at the online site earlier, I was very struck by a very tantalizing opportunity to both support the Society and enter into. Get like something that could be very exciting, which is this looks like the Society has like a contest underway that if people, you know, enter, they could, they could get a chance to win a trip to the Mauna Kea observatories with Bill Nye, the, you know, of note, which sounds fantastic. So I was curious about that. Also, if you need like a reporter, like volunteer to be, you know, to help, to help things. I know a couple of people and if it's between Rod and I, I know one guy, me, so that might be interesting. But, but if you could kind of like let, let our listeners know. Like, like obviously there's the, it's.

Tariq Malik [00:56:17]:
There's the planetary website, planetary.org but like, how other, where else can they find the Society? How can they join or support if, if they really want to be a part of the mission and the great work that, that the Society is doing right now?

Jennifer Vaughn [00:56:31]:
Well, we try to make it really easy to participate in the mission. So indeed planetary.org is the website. Tons of great resources there. You can dive in. You could spend probably years there. So there's a lot of information, but also on the socials, you know, Planetary Society is on all the major platforms. Planetary Radio, we have our own podcast as well, Planetary Radio that also has the offshoots of the Space Policy Edition and the Book Club Edition for members, people who join the Planetary side. There's also an online community, so an opportunity to connect with others who share this passion.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:57:07]:
So we really try to make it easy for you to find us and to get involved, to find ways to get involved. And so we're trying to inspire people, mobilize people, and we're trying to lead us all to greater outcomes in the scientific exploration of space. I felt like you had another. Oh, the sweepstakes, though, that's super cool. So I also want to just note what an interesting time for nonprofits because there are these entities like this Tap Cat sweepstake is what this is called, where there's this desire to build businesses that also support nonprofits. This has been somewhat game changing in the nonprofit world to have these organizations come up and say we're trying to do our own thing, but at the same time we want to help you. And the funds that come from these types of activities are unrestricted. They allow us to put our funds to use in the right way at the right time and talk about in 26.

Jennifer Vaughn [00:58:12]:
Really having that extra support that we've received from a similar type of activity really allowed us to invest in our space policy and advocacy team and our efforts there. So just shout out to these new models that are coming about that really do help nonprofits in meaningful ways.

Tariq Malik [00:58:32]:
A lot of different ways to get involved there. So we'll just make sure, make sure, John, that we get a link to the planetherd.org in those show notes and everything there.

Rod Pyle [00:58:41]:
Well, Jennifer, I want to thank you from the bottom of our hearts for joining us today for episode number 207 that we like to call what this again, do you have personal social media or website that we should be looking at?

Jennifer Vaughn [00:58:55]:
Nope. You can find me on, you know, you can find me on LinkedIn, but I've never been, I've never been a big social person, but I love that the organization is I get to just kind of ride there the coattails of the organization.

Rod Pyle [00:59:08]:
All right. Well, in complete contrast, of course, we have Tariq Malik, who is working very hard to promote himself on YouTube as well.

Tariq Malik [00:59:17]:
You can find me@space.com as always, Rod and on on the socials @tarikjmalik. And like Rod says, yes, I run a gaming channel on YouTube: SpaceTronPlays. Obviously I've been on hiatus because of the Artemis 2 mission, but I am trying to get back into it. Very sad. I know that if you're everyone listening is they care that the Star Trek Resurgence game is no longer available to buy because they lost the license to it. That was our last video. I'm very sad about that. But you can find me all there.

Tariq Malik [00:59:45]:
And then this weekend you will find me celebrating another trip around the sun because it's my birthday tomorrow and I'm

Jennifer Vaughn [00:59:50]:
getting a good old time. So happy birthday. Happy orbit of the sun.

Tariq Malik [00:59:54]:
That's right. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jennifer.

Rod Pyle [00:59:57]:
I have to come up with stuff for next week now to wish you a happy birthday. I'll see what kind of evil I can conjure up. And of course you can find me at pylebooks.com or at adastramagazine.com or the results of my work for better or worse at nss.org Remember, you can always drop us a line at twis@twit/tv. We welcome your comments, suggestions, ideas and space jokes. We've been having a good run of space jokes, so don't let up. We're counting on you. Good, bad, indifferent, whatever. Send them along.

Rod Pyle [01:00:26]:
New episodes. Oh, oh, do you?

Tariq Malik [01:00:29]:
Bonus. Bonus joke.

Jennifer Vaughn [01:00:31]:
Yeah. What did the cool star say to the hot star?

Tariq Malik [01:00:34]:
Oh, what? What? I don't know. Jennifer, What?

Jennifer Vaughn [01:00:36]:
Hey, what's up?

Rod Pyle [01:00:37]:
Blue.

Tariq Malik [01:00:38]:
I love it.

Jennifer Vaughn [01:00:40]:
I love it.

Rod Pyle [01:00:41]:
Thank you. New episodes.

Tariq Malik [01:00:44]:
Because hotter stars are blue. All right, all right.

Rod Pyle [01:00:46]:
Publish every Friday, say your favorite podcaster. So make sure to subscribe, tell your friends, and give us reviews. We'll take whatever you got. Five stars, thumbs up, five thimbles, five minutes. Monopoly figures. Whatever you got. You can also follow the Twit Tech podcast network at Twit on Twitter and on Facebook and Twitter TV on Instagram, Everyone, thank you, and we will see you on the flip side.