This Week in Space 171 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

0:00:00 - Rod Pyle
Hey space fans. On this episode of This Week in Space, we're talking to Dr Rick Genet about the United Nations Office of Outer Space Affairs and the National Space Society's role as an observer. Join us. This is This Week in Space, episode number 171, recorded on August 1st 2025. What's an UNOOSA? Hello and welcome to another episode of This Week in Space, the what's a UNOOSA edition. Figure that one out. You have to see it in text to understand it. I'm Rod Pyle, editor-in-chief of Ad Astra Magazine. It is my treat today to be joined by that icon of YouTube, the greatest Isaac Arthur, also president of the National Space Society and probably has a lot of other titles after his name. How are you doing, Isaac?

0:00:55 - Isaac Arthur
Doing pretty good. I think the only one that comes is chairman of the Board of Elections for Ohio.

0:00:59 - Rod Pyle
That's the one I was trying to remember.

0:01:00 - Isaac Arthur
That's a strange one, yeah. There's too many words at my age, so, but that's impressive we have an acronym for it, like everything else, like you know, so copy us what's your acronym. It was all later, yeah, oh, b-o-e, a-c-b-o-e.

0:01:14 - Rod Pyle
Wow. Okay, today we'll be joined in a few minutes by Dr. Rick Jenet, who is the good works down in Brownsville, Texas. He's also director of the National Space Society and the chair of its international committee and the vice president of the Technology and Science Advisory Board I think that's the name and, oh, who oversees the National Space Society status with the United Nations as an observer. So he's got a full portfolio. There's more to that, but we'll leave it there for now, because we'll have him on just a few minutes now before we start. Don't forget, as I tell you every week and have you done it yet to do as a solid, make sure to like, subscribe and the other podcast things that will keep us happy and on the air. We are counting on you. And I do read the comments, actually, and even the ones that are are less pleasant, but there's only been a couple of those, so I'm very happy about that.

And now a space joke from friend of the show, mark Turner hey Isaac, hey Rod, why can't you trust the moon? Why can't you trust the moon? Because it has a dark side. Wah, wah, wah, wah. And actually they call it the dark side of the moon. It's just dark. When it's dark. It's got a day night cycle, but that's okay using that.

0:02:36 - Isaac Arthur
Sometimes it's. It's dark relative to earth and earth signals. Yeah, exactly now.

0:02:40 - Rod Pyle
I've heard that some people want to send us to the dark side of the moon. It's joke time in this show, but you can help by sending your best, worst or most indifferent space joke to us at twis@twit.tv. And I got a whole catch of them a while ago uh, largely from mark turner and a handful of others, and I appreciate that because, well, frankly, they're better than mine. All right, and now we're going to go on to an abbreviated headline news. Headline news.

0:03:10 - John Ashley
Okay, in my defense. When you said abbreviated, I was thinking of the sound effect.

0:03:15 - Rod Pyle
Good morning John. Okay, so let's just do one story this time, one that's near and dear to all of us who owns Discovery, dear to all of us who owns discovery. So the big, beautiful bill had 85 million dollars included for moving the space shuttle discovery to houston from the udvar hazy center in dc, where it is under the control of the Smithsonian. There's a couple of problems with that. Uh, 85 million does not appear to be enough to actually make the move. Uh, on average, it costs a couple hundred million to build a facility to house a shuttle, unless you're just going to put it in a big inflatable tent, which is an icky way to display it. La, for instance Los Angeles, where I live is displaying their shuttle in vertical launch configuration in a big building, and that was a couple hundred million. So there's a few bugs there. But a bigger bug is that the Smithsonian said no, this is a heist. This is our space shuttle. We have the paperwork to prove that NASA gave it to us, and I quote NASA has transferred all rights, title and interest in ownership of Discovery to the Smithsonian 2012. And that is part of the National Air and Space Museum's mission and core function as a research facility and the repository of the national air and space collection, and technically, just about anything comes back from space and lands on earth belongs to the Smithsonian if nasa made it or nasa paid for it through contractors.

So it's a weird story because texas isn't giving up and this is something that the senators of texas have been beating the drum on for years. They feel they should have a shuttle. I would just like to say, as I said a couple weeks ago, they do have a shuttle. It was a mate-demate mock-up. It's sitting out in front of the Space Center Houston, which is right across the street from Johnson Space Center, on the back of one of two shuttle carrier planes. They're the only museum I know of that has a shuttle carrier plane. So you've got a shuttle and people can actually go inside that one. So why, oh why, Isaac?

0:05:12 - Isaac Arthur
I asked you should houston spend all this money and and deprive dc of their shuttle? Uh, you're right. It should obviously be at the right pass an air force museum, museum here in Ohio, in Dayton, which is vastly more worthy of a show.

0:05:26 - Rod Pyle
Is that like a true politician?

0:05:28 - Isaac Arthur
But I mean it's a fair point to raise is obviously whatever the Smithsonian has can be moved to other locations. But if it's set up that basically anything coming from NASA belongs to the Smithsonian, there's an awful lot of states and an awful lot of groups and an awful lot of places that might want some of that heritage too. So I so not saying texas necessarily has a inside track to be able to get this, or, you know, maybe if they are willing to put up the rest of the money they can get it, uh, but at the same time I don't think we're gonna have everything stored in the Smithsonian. And, uh, you know, I can sympathize their perspective. They are the country's museum, but there's a lot of the country and a lot of museums.

Just drive there. What Well, DC is closer to me than Texas is.

0:06:10 - Rod Pyle
Well, there you go.

0:06:12 - Isaac Arthur
But my passport base is much closer to everybody.

0:06:15 - Rod Pyle
Yeah, but it's an Air Force base.

0:06:17 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
And that's an interesting discussion.

0:06:20 - Rod Pyle
So, for instance, we have Jet Propulsion Laboratory about six miles north of me. It's the only major NASA field center without a museum, because there's no real estate there. It's nestled in a crook in the in the foothills above Pasadena and there is a hoity-toity Equestrian Center and a sheriff training facility nearby, but without taking those over you have no room for a visitor center. So you can only go like one or two days a year to go visit JPL, which is a shame because it's a really cool place. Um, how would an air force base have a visitor center? Is that something they could accommodate?

0:06:52 - Isaac Arthur
the, the museum that might pass an air force base, the aerospace museum, that was huge. They get, god, thousands and thousands of visitors. I used to go down there for my lunch break so I was an intern back in 2000 but, uh, walked up the hill at the actual Air Force Institute Huge museum, gorgeous. If you haven't been there, go there, all shuttles aside. But I think just in that kind of context, I hate to say we should be auctioning off. But there's a lot to be said about asking states what kind of visitor center are you willing to provide? What kind of matching funds are you willing to offer to get this piece of American history at your location? So it's close to other people to go look at and present it best, and it might be a thing worth thinking about there. But you know again, if you haven't checked out the museum, absolutely, it's great.

0:07:35 - Rod Pyle
Well, that's the best commercial I've ever heard for Wright-Patterson, so well done. Go Ohio. Oh boy, no-transcript Technology and Entrepreneurship. So you wear about 19 hats for us, which we appreciate, and it's Pirates Day here because we have you and Isaac Arthur, as previously introduced, as the president of the National Space Society, so I'm actually the only one that doesn't have an officer's title. So I'm the small dog here today doesn't have an officer's title. So I'm the small dog here today. Well, that's true, but yeah, okay, sure, but but, rick, I have a quote here that I want to read. I was trying to think of ways to introduce you, but Walt Ugalde on LinkedIn did a better job than I could do, which is to say, dr Rick Jaday is a rare combination of integrity, ambition and intelligence, and I will just add to that that, after I saw you at the ISDC take the podium, you're also funny as hell. So welcome to the show.

0:08:59 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
Well, you're making it very difficult for me to live up to that, but thank you very much. Thanks, Ron.

0:09:03 - Rod Pyle
It's great to be here. People laughed at your jokes, probably because they were at my expense, but that's okay, I thought it was a lot of fun. So so we're here today to talk about the connection between, and the work being done by the national space society in conjunction with the united nations, which is something you took on about two years ago, I think, right um, I guess as vice chair two years ago, but had been on the committee for at least a year and a half, two years before that as well.

Okay, so I guess what I would be interested to know is how this connection came about and what it is, and then we can talk about UNUSA and COPUS.

0:09:41 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
Sure, sure, sure so well, the real connection between NSS and the United Nations Office of Outer Space Affairs and the UN in general happened 24 years ago or so, in 2001, when visionaries at the NSS saw an opportunity to become a permanent observer at the UN, which enables them to actually be part of this global conversation. So I'm only coming into this whole thing, obviously in the last few years now, but it was great to see, and it was actually one of the reasons why I joined NSS is that I saw that they had this global influence and an ability to have a fantastic global influence, and so that's, you know, that's kind of where we were. And then, you know, quick shout out to the CEO, carlton Johnson, and his leadership is setting the tone, and he and the other NSS leaders have trusted me to really, you know, kind of run with the international committee and build up NSS's global reach. So it's been a pretty exciting journey.

0:10:54 - Rod Pyle
And I remember Al Anzaldúa. Alfred Anzaldúa was also involved with that for a while.

0:10:59 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
Of course, and thank you, for I would be remiss not to mention Al. Al was a mentor of mine as I joined the international committee. He kind of showed me the ropes on the floor at the committee on the peaceful uses of outer space and the UN in Vienna as well.

0:11:17 - Rod Pyle
So yeah, Al was great to work with he is great to work with and how handy to have a guy who spent 25 years in the State Department when you're dealing with such things, Isaac, so, for folks who might not be as familiar, we just said what the acronyms here were Corpio and UNOSA, the UN Office of Outer Space Affairs.

0:11:36 - Isaac Arthur
Can you tell us a little bit more about those actually are, what they serve and what their main goal is?

0:11:41 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
Certainly, certainly so. These entities were created in the 60s. So UNUSA, the United Nations Office of Outer Space Affairs it was basically the directorate that would run the Committee on Peaceful Uses of Outer Space. So they're the ones that provide the service that basically organizes that entire group and brings together what is now the 104 member state delegations that come and meet three times a year.

Unusa is also I mean, I like to look at it as copious, is kind of like the Congress, and UNUSA is kind of like the executive branch. So copious that's the member delegations. They're the people that are setting. You know what's going to happen, what should happen, you know the principles, the laws, in some cases early on, and it's UNOOSA that kind of carries out and makes sure that things are being carried out.

So when you register so I guess few people it's great to educate people about the role of these two organizations because they do have an influence and a growing influence in space development now, as space development is ramping up and any member state that launches is required to actually register the objects with the UN Office of Outer Space Affairs. So they keep a registry of everything that is up there internationally. And, of course, copus is the body that is basically thinking about legal frameworks and in some cases, like the Outer Space Treaty, developing what will become actual laws, international laws. So very important now, as commercial space activity grows, as more state actors start having a space program, more coordination is necessary, and so more and more member states are joining these discussions. More and more observers are joining these discussions.

0:13:49 - Rod Pyle
So I think when most of us think of the UN, we think of the big hall and, you know, some angry delegation getting up to the podium and slamming the heel of their shoe on the podium saying I don't like this proposal and we're going to do that, we will never vote for this. And having observer status is a little different than that. So how does that work?

0:14:11 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
So, first off, having observer status is a privilege. We're allowed to be there because the member states allow us to be there and it is something that you know we take seriously and NSS takes seriously, as we want to be a resource for the delegates. So they're definitely they're observers that will go up there and slam their hand on the table and say you know, you need to be doing this, you need to be doing that. All that kind of stuff, which is fine, that has that sort of has its place, but we feel we want to take a let's listen, let's listen to what the member states are saying. Let's you know, let's talk to them, have a dialogue with them to understand what you know, where, what, where are gaps in the knowledge, where are things that they're trying to understand and wrestle with, so that we can then produce the, the research, the papers, the presentations that can inform them, so that they can take that back to their countries, they can use that as they develop the guiding principles.

0:15:18 - Isaac Arthur
On the topic of the principles, you'd say you've got the laws, you've got the treaties, you've got the policy. Versus the legal framework For things like policy or principles. Some would argue like what's the actual purpose there? What's the point that that gets to as opposed to a treaty?

0:15:32 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
Oh, that's an excellent, excellent point. Matter of fact, in our last international committee meeting, who's actually comes to us from Nairobi in Africa, Cynthia Shihemi. She asked that similar question Like what? You know, why do we do this? Why do we write down principles, why do we do this kinds of stuff? And so we're thinking about it and stuff for it, and you look at history and you think, well, what was the Magna Carta and what was the Declaration of Independence? There's a bunch of people that got together and wrote down how they feel things should go.

Now, you know, depending upon how it's presented, where it's presented, and so forth, some may stick, some may not, but it all has to start. You got to start somewhere. Some may stick, some may not, but it all has to start. You got to start somewhere and you have to start putting these thoughts down in paper and you have to start reviewing it and you start building momentum around it, and so forth. So that's really what the value of these principles are is let's start having this conversation, let's start putting words down, let's start everyone, like you know, thinking about it and so forth. And it's the first step towards developing, you know, best practices and then ultimately moving on to you know real codified treaties and laws.

0:16:55 - Rod Pyle
All right. Well, we're going to consider our next treaty after this short break, so don't go anywhere, we'll be right back. So you kind of touched on this. But when you're talking about the specific roles, these, these offices and the UN more broadly in space, I guess the big discussion is is policy and legal frameworks and, as you noted to me, principles, not laws. So I'm sure some people ask what's the point. But first I think we need to understand exactly how it works. Well, maybe not exactly, I mean broadly.

0:17:28 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
Well, sure, now, when we say how it works, it's an interesting. So what happens and this is one of the great things about being a fly on the wall there is there will be a group that proposes some set of principles, and then it kind of goes through the entire process, which that in and of itself is pretty amazing to watch. So what happens after things are presented is that literally everyone has conversations about it, like you'll have the on the margins conversations about it, where different groups are now going to talk about it and so forth, and then you have um, where people become the avatars of their country, as I like to put it. So, in other words, it's the official, it's the, it's the official discussion, where everything's translated, um, which that in of itself is an amazing experience, by the way. It's just like wow, everyone is speaking in their natural language and I understand everything. It's like this is amazing. But what has to happen now is they will literally put up like okay, we think this is the way we think this should be worded, and that gets put up on a screen right, and then all the delegations start to respond and some may say, oh my God, this is like pulling teeth, because it's like they're each trying to adjust certain words and so forth and so on.

But what I'm seeing is it really is in a global sense. It's team building, right? You see this? It's a very similar team building exercise that you do with groups of four or five people that are working at one company, and you're seeing it now happen on the global stage, where everyone puts their input, everyone says now, in this format, they're representing their states, so they're very careful about what they say and how they say it, and so forth, and you get to see various things being reflected and so forth, but eventually they come down and they start to agree on something.

So now, of course, one thing might, when people talk about the speed at which it works, it may take an hour to get the heading of a section figured out, but when it's figured out, it's figured out and agreed upon by the 104 member states that are in that room. So you know, okay, it's a conversation amongst the ants, but it has. You know, it is an important and far-reaching agreement that was just made and that this is, you know, wording that could be agreed upon by groups and cultures that are speaking different languages and so forth.

0:20:04 - Rod Pyle
So that level of the sausage making is amazing to see and, you know, I think it is something very positive on a global scale so if you're discussing a, let's say, a big space initiative of some kind you know as talking about future resource rights or something in general, does the entire uh membership of the un vote on that? Does that mean that you've got, you know, a small island republic in the Central Pacific possibly blocking something, or is it somehow skewed towards the?

0:20:40 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
larger space powers. Yeah, so when it comes to copious. So the specific committee, the way this was set up is it is set up as a consensus body and so, just like what you said, in order for anything, any action to move forward, is it does have to be a unanimous vote, so, effectively, everyone has veto power. So, you're right, it doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't matter, it's not based on size or anything like that. Every delegation has equal authority to say no. I don't agree with that. So, yeah, and that is the reality of that, but it also means that when they do agree on something, it is something that is agreed on by the entire membership, which is reflecting the entire voice of humanity.

0:21:38 - Isaac Arthur
I guess it kind of fits the kind of follow-up there being. What exactly is the value of this if we have to get Abby on the table to agree and I'm guessing that doesn't happen as often as everyone would probably like, as often as everyone would probably like? What would you say the value to humanity as a whole is, and to the United States space program and to other major space programs who are actually doing most of the day-to-day operations?

0:21:59 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
Right, so well, part of that is, you know, okay, right now it's a small number of state space actors, but we know, especially NSS's vision is that going to space with humans living and working out of space is a global endeavor and it does require the large talents you know, across many different, diverse backgrounds and so forth. So what is it doing? Well, there's things like space traffic management right, so you need to coordinate those activities. Just the same way, internationally, we have air traffic management and there are certain legal frameworks behind that so that we're able to fly over anywhere in the world and expect certain laws to be adhered to, and so forth. So it's that same idea. It's this international coordination Big thing that we, you know, especially us in the room here.

We know that debris, orbital debris, it's a big deal. Right, states are launching things. Okay, you know, they just stay there. Right now, things break up and those particles are all over the place. They're going to cause problems. So far, knock on wood, it hasn't. But those discussions need to happen on a global scale as to how do you coordinate all of this stuff and who coordinates it and those types of things.

Another one which we don't necessarily think of, but UNUSA is thinking of. This has to do with space defense, and what do I mean by space defense? Well, okay, there's human generated defense issues, fine, okay, fine, we know those. But this is if you know what happens, if you know an asteroid comes by and actually looks like it's going to impact somewhere in the globe, who deals with that? Right, and those are types of discussions and those are the type of coordination that you and USA and related groups would, you know, starting to consider and would be considering. And so it's that global coordination is where the real value is.

There is also space resources. How does one use space resources in a coordinated way that's aligned with the Outer Space Treaty but enables development? So those policies are starting to be developed and thought about, and so that framework is just starting to come together, and that's something that all interested groups that are going to want to take advantage of space resources they're going to want to know that. That's there for various reasons. So, yeah, so yeah, no, there's, there's, it's the coordination issue is it's making you know, it's making sure that things are being done safely. There is the, there is this idea, it is a mantra that comes up all the time. Is that space, especially over and over again, that space is for peaceful purposes and unique. People hate it when I say very unique, but make it. Make it unique, unique amongst anything that's happening uh in the uh in the world and is becoming more and more relevant now.

0:25:45 - Rod Pyle
So um, I think we're going to need to circle back to that 800 pound gorilla about peaceful uses of space after this next break. So stand by, We'll be right back. So the origin of all this was the Outer Space Treaty of 1967. Very old, Set up initially, as I understand it, between the US and the Soviet Union, but other people eventually signed it. So maybe you could talk a little bit about what it is, why it's important and the conversation around. Does it need to be updated?

0:26:17 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
Excellent. So, um, I mean, as with any legal framework, why it's important. You know it is to give some security for operations that are happening. Uh, it gives some reaffirming as to what the expectations are in space. And you know this was being done in the middle of a Cold War. We know what was kind of on our minds at the time and kind of wanted to make sure that we all agreed all right, you know this could be bad for everyone, so let's just, you know, let's just agree on how we're going to operate in this way. And I think everyone, you know again I should say not a legal expert on this and this is what I've gleaned over my time at, uh, at Copious and uh, un and my, my, uh friends that are way more knowledgeable of this, uh, but, um, the, the, the outer space treaty, um, is basically our, basically our only global treaty that is governing, uh, how state actors are going to behave. And this is where this mantra of for peaceful purposes really comes into play and I think is extremely important, as we can all gather. But it was a document that was written in the 60s.

Certain issues, important issues that are starting to be questioned about it now has to do with. What does it mean about ownership of properties? Now, it is very clearly stated, uh, that states cannot uh, appropriate, uh, uh, property or land on celestial bodies, right, um? So what exactly does that mean? You know, you know, you always start to pick apart things and wonder why certain things were worded and stuff, because you know the earth is a celestial body and you know states are appropriating land on celestial bodies. But, okay, that's a legal point there.

Right, going to consider moving forward with this thought of commercial space and private space actors, and what protections can states offer to, uh, to, to big investments that happen in space, if states can't claim jurisdiction over, over, whatever is being developed and built? And, and you know so, the discussions are happening about how you, how you, deal with that and so forth. The very creative things are being thought of and whatnot, but that is an area that maybe we need to rethink, and so I think, slowly, on the margins, people are like hmm, what needs to be rethought here? There's always the question, though is the geopolitical climate correct and right to do something like that?

0:29:14 - Rod Pyle
So everyone's like, like, well, maybe we'll just, you know, wait right now, maybe we'll work with what we got, we'll take that can down the road yeah, exactly, exactly well, and at the time that this was done in 1967, there was kind of this increasing interest in I guess you'd call it direct military applications of space. There were designs in both Soviet Union in the United States for orbital weapons. We were looking at how you could arm space stations of the future, which in fact the Soviets actually did put a gatling gun on one of their space stations as an experiment. But even before that, uh, us had launched a fission reactor into orbit in 1962. And we had the fishbowl experiments, like Starfish Prime, where we just said, hey, let's see what happens if you detonate a nuclear device in orbit, how bad can it be? Oh, it's very bad for electrical systems. There are plans on both sides of the atlantic to detonate nuclear weapons on the moon just to show that we can and scare the reds and vice versa.

0:30:18 - Isaac Arthur
So that certainly made it a timely thing, Isaac so we will touch a moment on resource management for the moon and asteroids, and that's a that's a topic that needs to get solved at some point. Um, but again, maybe the climate's not right to make those decisions. Space traffic and space debris though that's very much today. What? What are they looking at for that right now? What sort of agreements seem to be acceptable to everyone? What kind of framework is that looking like?

0:30:45 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
yeah. So I would say it's very much in its um, nascent phase right now. It is just coming to bear. So space traffic management is definitely so. I will say this is an area that I'm rather proud of, because our delegation got called out by name the National Space Society by one of the official member state delegations for the work that we submitted on space traffic management, which was a great thing to see and, I think, important to show to our NSS membership that, yeah, we are really having an impact here.

But the discussions are very much in their infancy, are very much in their infancy. They're talking about how do we protect things, how do we have coordination, what type of information sharing, those types of basic tenets that get discussed in these types of things, and that it's, you know, it's something that everyone should be, you know, at the table and it should be transparent, uh, with all, with all groups. So it's that kind of level of discussion right now. Um, I think, uh, but you know they, they do want to, uh, you know it's one of those things that they, they want to get ahead of and start having discussions. So there are things in place, there are group there are I don't know if they're official groups yet that are doing that. I think there are actually on space traffic management. So it is, it's being discussed, but it's in its infancy, I would say.

0:32:27 - Isaac Arthur
Is that more or less the case for the more long range aspects like asteroid mining, moon mining and ISRU for Artemis or some other project?

0:32:36 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
It's a moon base going. So with the ISRU, there is actually a document, and you can find it online on the UNOSA website, which are the principles for space resource utilization, which is starting, you know, is putting together a set of, you know, tenets and best practices to and best practices to start to guide that conversation, and it was actually an important conversation that was happening at the second subcommittee meeting, the legal subcommittee meeting. That was, I think, second quarter 2025 when that happened, and it was an amazing thing to see. Again, there's, you know, there's the peaceful purposes piece. That's there. There's information sharing, which is an important part of it.

The role of science and how that plays out is something that is there. In other words, are there exclusion zones that are specific for science? Or how does that? How does science and the commercial activities work together? They're thinking through those, those aspects and so forth. But, again, these are, these are being put together as sort of non-binding, as you say, principles that you know the. The idea is ultimately like all of these things, these would be put, you know, the non-binding principles, they become best practices. Then ultimately, they would potentially move into what could be considered, what would consider be a global treaty or so forth. So, um, it's a amazing time to see that you, that these things are seriously being discussed.

Also, coordinating lunar activities, there is something called the Action Team for Lunar Activities Consultation, which I had the honor of seeing how that was being put together and how the people that were the brains behind that maneuvered that Fantastic, fantastic work to see that happen at a global level. And now there is this action team, which all, as far as I can tell, all member states are participating in it. There are two co-chairs One is from Romania, the other is from Pakistan. They represent basically Artemis and ILRS. So they're there together having these discussions and coordinating the future of humanity going to the moon what it would look like. So I think those two things are probably going to be the most important and long lasting things that come out of Copious in the near future.

0:35:17 - Rod Pyle
All right, let's go to our last break and we'll be right back. So you mentioned Artemis, which is the American lunar effort, and the framework of agreements surrounding that, and we have, I think, somewhere in the mid-50s in terms of how many nations have signed on now. And then the ILRS, which is the International Lunar Research Station, which is effectively China and Russia, in that order at this point, because Russia's budget has subtracted quite a bit over the years for space. But I'm wondering. So these are the two initiatives between east and west to get back to the moon. We're all eyes on to see who does this earliest. For whatever that might matter, is that an active topic of discussion in the sessions you attend?

0:36:08 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
They do come up and I think they more or less come up as delegations will say that they have. We have recently signed on to the Artemis Accords, as in their what is called the General Exchange of Views, which is kind of just talking about what they've been doing. That is what their state has been doing. It's aligned with the committee and you'll have others coming up. Yeah, we have joined ILRrs and that kind of stuff. Uh, that is discussed.

Um, something I will mention, uh, that uh, recently I was my, my, uh, I came to my attention was there's actually a third option. Um, it's coming out of the hague institute for global justice and it's called the washington compact. Um, which is being, it's being led out of the, the institute and it's the idea is that they, they want commercial actors and private actors to be signing on to this and be signing on to this compact, which is very much a reflection of the Outer Space Treaty, and how you would you know how you would move forward ethically and peacefully in developing outer space. I'm very excited to see how that moves forward in all of these discussions.

0:37:22 - Isaac Arthur
I think that definitely can be. When we look at who is doing what on the moon, who is getting ready to do stuff on the moon with exclusion zones, you've got a lot of private actors that are looking to test products, test the new rover, test the method of oxidizing, get some oxygen out of the rock. What does that actually look like right now in terms of who owns what and what's going to be permitted for both private actors your space, actually Blue Origins and then for individual nations or groups of nations?

0:37:50 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
Well, it is an interesting. I think this is still trying to be figured out. But the main problem the Outer Space Treaty limits no ownership. So a state can't come down, plant a flag and say I own this square kilometer, but then the way you're going to, you know, how do you move forward in this situation? How does a private actor move forward in a situation like this, when it's just like, well, so I go there. And since the state doesn't own it, then who protects my interests? And so forth? And it's just, you know, by definition, it's the Wild West.

One workaround is this you know, there's something there is, there is something called an exclusion zone that's allowed for in the Outer Space Treaty, which is when I have something that's operating there, then you should have due regard. Well, I can put my sensor system down here, and then I say, all right, well, I now control that area and it's an exclusion zone, so you shouldn't come near me, kind of thing. But how big is the exclusion zone and how close you can get, and all of those things. I don't know if that's fully, you know, fully delimited, and there's a lot of leeway in there, and so forth. So I think this is, these are exactly the types of things, the types of discussions that are happening as to.

You know, what do we do with this? And that's what the action team and lunar activities consultation will do, together with other um, other subcommittee um, entities in in copious that are that are, uh, looking at space resource utilization and space sustainability and these types of uh, these types of things. But it's not, by no means it's a solid problem. And how does someone make a decision that they're going to invest, or how does someone make a decision that they're going to ensure a mission when none of these legal frameworks are in place to ensure anything at the moment? But because the technology is so close and we're starting to recognize that that, um, you and USA and Copious realize that, you know, these are the conversations that need to be happening now so that we can get ahead of this.

0:40:28 - Rod Pyle
So when I first heard observer status and this is many, many years ago, not knowing much about it, the image that flashed in my head was, you know, a bunch of guys sitting up in the bleachers eating popcorn while these things were debated, which is not the case. So can you talk a little bit about what influence and recent contributions we might have made?

0:40:48 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
Sure. So actually this is a great lead in. If you go to the NSS website NSSorg NSSorg under about NSS, you'll see international policy and clicking on that brings you to our National Space Society Library of International Space Policy and you can see all the work that we've been recently doing. We are I think we have everything up there that we've done in 2025. And that will be, you know, as we'll start to get the earlier work on there as well.

But we have so the types of things. First. You know, you'll see things called the general exchange of views, which is just here's who we are, here's our influence in the areas that we is. Just here's who we are. Here's our influence in the areas that we do, here's what we want to do, here's how we want to help the delegates. So we talk about those types of things. We also talk about our wonderful education programs and our workforce development programs and things like ISDC and things like this wonderful podcast This Week in Space, and also Isaac Arthur's work as well gets talked about in there. But also we have our work on space traffic management, legal challenges and so forth and the benefit sharing of space development. You'll see work in there. Quick shout out to Grant Hendrickson, a recent joiner of the policy committee sorry, of the international committee, but he is the chair of the policy committee and it's been great working with him as he's been helping us develop many of these concepts and ideas.

Presentations so we have presentations on things like deorbiting, large space objects and the legal challenges that are behind those types of things. I want to give a quick shout out to Paul Wunderall, who has been leading those discussions and he's our representative, who is an NSS member, who's in Germany actually, and things about NSS's opinions of dark and quiet skies and how we can have a sustainable path forward in a long-term strategy for astronomy and how they work together with commercial space. So, yeah, we've been touching many different topics, many different topics. We also have we've also been. We had a great presentation that one of our members, danica Vallone, who actually joined us in person in February at the Science and Technology Subcommittee where she talked about healthcare innovations in both space and remote environments and in both space and remote environments. So yeah, we basically take advantage of the large amount of knowledge and information that NSS members have and work closely with our policy committee and we present information that is relevant to the agenda items set by the member states.

0:44:04 - Rod Pyle
So maybe you could discuss a little bit the role of these UN offices in global launch and regulation. I know we're struggling quite a bit with trying to streamline regulations here in the US, but then there's global stuff that has to be concerned, and you mentioned something to me about regulation sandbox, which sounds like a very cool idea. How does that work?

0:44:28 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
Yeah. So now, I first learned of this at ISDC. One of the NSS sponsors had given a great presentation at ISDC talking about this thing called a regulation sandbox, and it is basically the idea here is that you take it, say, you have a technology area or you have have a particular area, um, uh, with a lot of commercial potential, but the regulations might not be up to promoting that particular, that particular thing, whatever, whatever it may be, um, so this has been, I think it's been demonstrated in europe and different other, uh, other countries where the idea is that you kind of say, all right, this particular area, we're going to set aside the existing regulations and allow them to operate under this new set of regulations for a limited amount of time and see what happens. Right, that's basically what it is, right, that's, that's, that's basically what it is. I know, yeah, I know, of several different examples, including, I believe, even China has done this with, with special economic zones that they've created, you know, things like global treaties and global regulations.

It's an interesting thought and I think it'll be, you know, interesting to see what may come out of that, not even sure what one would do. Maybe we consider it's like, well, okay, this particular patch of the moon, we're going to relax some of these, some of these regulations, and just kind of see what happens for the next few years. Uh, or maybe this island in the pacific or something along those lines that are in international waters. We see what, we see what happens, not sure how it would go forward, um, but it was uh, it was a very interesting uh concept that you could potentially, you know that you could actually agree to deregulate an area for a, you know, for a limited amount of time and just, you know, try it out. And you know we can see that there are areas in space, you know, in space launch and ISRU and so forth, that you know might benefit from something like this.

0:46:55 - Isaac Arthur
So we'll see well, we mentioned lawyers and regulations, and earlier we're talking about how it's kind of the wild west right now, because there just is no rule for what you could do on on the moon, for instance, um, and you know, there's always that future vision in in science fiction. You've got your star trek kind of semi-utopian setup. You got something a little bit more dystopian like the Expanse. We got the asteroid miners and then, of course, maybe a very good one for the occasion Babylon 5, which was kind of like the UN in space. What is our preferred vision of the future? Is it Star Trek, is it Expanse, babylon 5? Something completely else?

0:47:33 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
So you're asking the way I see things, yes or the?

0:47:39 - Isaac Arthur
for that matter.

0:47:42 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
Well, the UN's vision is what the member states make it to be, which is an interesting thing, and it's this idea. Well, the un is all about conversation. It is let's have everyone at the table, let's make sure that they continue to discuss things and they're there, no matter what's happening in the background. Um, and you know, uh, I hope that that's kind of the way things are going to move forward. I mean, I think things are going to move forward. I mean I think things are going to grow organically and I think there's going to be a little bit of each that is going on. Uh, just because that's the way that's that's. There's a reason why there is all these different views is because we each have these different views and it's going to start out, you know, there'll be certain things that are tried. You know, we'll have, uh, we'll have our initial colonies and so forth, and certain things will happen, and so we can all, kind of we can use history as a guide that we hope we can learn from. But, you know, I do hope that, moving forward, the United Nations continues to be that group Well, or there is a group. But the United Nations is it right now, group well, or there is a group, hopefully, but the United Nations is it right now. So there is that group where these conversations continue and then, whatever settlements form as we move forward, they will have a voice as they continue to develop and you know we continue to have that guide towards peaceful uses of outer space.

We know human nature, we know there's going to be, there's going to be pitfalls and all of that kind of stuff. Uh, we know things aren't going to go um rosily, um, stuff's going to happen. Um, I think we're going to be very we tend to be reactionary in a lot of our laws and our legal frameworks. So things weren't, you know, maybe will not be pushed to the forefront until something really happens to push it to the forefront. But hopefully we'll be at when certain things happen. You know when, when that first, you know when, when there's that first bar fight in space, or you know there's that first mugging, or there's that first something gets stolen in space. Hopefully we can. You know we pull out and we say you know we're able to look at it's like all right. Well, you know the UN copious, there were guidelines that were put in place for this. So let's see what they have to say here and that's maybe we should move these more towards treaties and so forth. So that's, those are my quick thoughts on that.

0:50:17 - Rod Pyle
I'd like to see a televised reality TV show bar fight inside a Crew Dragon capsule. That would be interesting because there's nowhere to go. My last question for you is I think I understand why space enthusiasts we all understand why space enthusiasts should care about what happens with these organizations and their offices and, uh, the involvement the nss has, because you know we're one of the public voices that's there, uh, but for the general public, do you have a comment on on how this affects them and why they ought to care?

0:50:54 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
how this affects them and why they ought to care. So well, when we say why the general public should care, is because these are discussions that are happening. They're happening at a very high level, but it's agreements ultimately going to lead to agreements that member states are going to take back and that they're going to create laws around these particular things. Now we're seeing an initial part of this and it's kind of happened and certain space actors private space actors have come up and said well, you know, I can go to this place and I don't have to worry about any laws or anything like that. Right, it's like, well, no, actually there are actually international laws that govern how you're going to behave when you do certain things. I mean, so, that's, that's basically. You know, those are. Those are cutting edge examples.

Um, but, as you know, as space development moves more into the public, as in, more and more entrepreneurs are taking this on, which they are? We know they are small business and entrepreneurs are looking at you know, how do we mine asteroids, how do we utilize these resources, All of this? You know all this kinds of stuff In the background. There are these laws that are there In the background. There are these laws that are there, and I mean there's definitely each state has their own laws that you know.

Maybe they're vaguely familiar with, but they know that they're going to get hurt. You know they're going to get their hand slapped if suddenly they disobeyed the FAA or suddenly something you know. There are particular laws that they've overreached and same thing's going to happen on the international scale. So you need to be aware that these things exist and I know my legal friends will say the sooner that a startup is aware that these frameworks are there and they should know about them, the less painful it's going to be when the time comes that they're faced with them. So right now it seems a little bit abstract, but more and more it's becoming into the realm of people's, you know, on people's radars and in people's minds.

0:53:10 - Rod Pyle
Well, this has been a treat, and I want to thank you for enlightening not just the audience but but me, because this is something I wanted to know more about as well. And I want to thank everybody, and especially you, rick, for joining us today for episode 171, which I like to call what's a UNUSA, because for a long time I didn't know, rick, where should we set our, our navigation guidance systems to rendezvous with you on the internet?

0:53:37 - Dr. Rick Jenet 3
So yeah, definitely. I'm the co-founder and executive director of Expanding Frontiers, so please check us out at www.expandingfrontiers.org. Also, have a look at the great work that the International Committee is doing at the NSS that's nss.org and look for the international policy work.

0:54:02 - Rod Pyle
Okay, and Isaac, where can we find you dominating the entire spectrum of YouTube?

0:54:07 - Isaac Arthur
So you can find me by just searching my name. And Science and Futurism with Isaac Arthur. We have new episodes every Thursday and usually a second episode most weeks too.

0:54:17 - Rod Pyle
And I just have to say you know I keep track of your episodes, obviously and these are something I might be able to turn out once a year you come up with these really deep dives in brain-hurting topics and I got nothing but admiration for your work because it's out of this world, as we like to say. And, of course, you can always find me at pylebooks.com or at astromagazinecom, and not just you can find me there. Go find me there. Remember to drop us a line at twis@twit.tv, that's t-w-i-s@twit.tv, we love getting your comments, suggestions and ideas, and now that I have Isaac on board for a week or two, I'll get him to answer a couple of them too.

New episodes published every Friday on your favorite Podcatcher, so make sure to subscribe, tell your friends and give us reviews. We'll take whatever you like, but five stars or thumbs or whatever you got would be would be great. And don't forget, we're counting on you to join club twit this year. Besides supporting this show, which is, of course, my favorite, you'll help keep the network on the air and operating. A depreciable percentage of the operating budget for the Twit Network now comes from Club Twit, so stand up and be counted. It's only $10 a month and you get this show without ads, all shows without ads and other special stuff you can get nowhere else. Thanks everybody, it's been a treat and I will see you again soon. Take care, bye-bye.

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