This Week in Space 135 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

00:00 - Rod Pyle (Host)
On this episode of this Week in Space, we're talking about the Space Workers Pipeline, on and off Earth. Stay with us. Podcasts you love From people you trust this is Tolt. This is this Week in Space, episode number 135, recorded on November 1st 2024. The Spacer Pipeline Hello and welcome to this Week in space, the spacer pipeline edition. And if you don't know what that is, it's developing a space workforce. I'm Rod Pyle, editor-in-chief at Aster Magazine, and I'm joined as always by my innovating friend, tarek Malik, editor-in-chief of spacecom. Hello my friend, hello Rod, hello, happy podcast day, happy podcast day and happy day before day of the dead.

00:48 - Tariq Malik (Host)
No, well, it's the day. It's actually it's tonight and tomorrow, so, uh, oh, is it Okay? Yeah, it's like a sundown so as dia de los huertos. Ooh, look at you.

00:57 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
That's all.

00:57 - Tariq Malik (Host)
That's all Happy happy post Halloween to everybody that celebrates too. It was very great. We got a lot of candy here in, you know fabulous Northern New Jersey.

01:12 - Rod Pyle (Host)
So All right, well, now that we've done speaking to your inner nine-year-old, today we're going to speak further to Dr Rick Jenea, who's a founder and scientist founder and scientist entrepreneur, I mean of Expanding Frontiers, which is an organization that works with underserved communities for high-tech and space careers and businesses in South Texas down near Brownsville. So really looking forward to that. But before we do, I need to remind you all to please do us a solid, make sure to like us, subscribe and do all that other podcast stuff for us, because we're counting on your support. And, of course, joining Club Twit wouldn't be a miss either. And now drum roll, our space joke from listener Dale Baker's son, brock hey, tarek, yes, rod, why does the moon go across the sky each night?

01:59 - Tariq Malik (Host)
I don't know, rod, why does the moon go across the sky To get to the other tide?

02:07 - Rod Pyle (Host)
That's good, that's a good one.

02:09 - Tariq Malik (Host)
I thought brock is an awesome name. That's like an astronaut, sci-fi golden age name yeah, that's great yeah, like brent jet best astronaut name ever, brent jet.

02:19 - Rod Pyle (Host)
So rock strong. Um, now I've heard that some folks want to wander out into the high tide and allow it to take them into oblivion whenever it's joke time in this show. But you can help that from happening. Send your best, worst or most indifferent space joke to us at twists at twittv. Quick show note. We got a email from Steve, sheridan, rod and Tarek. I really enjoyed your episode with ben dickow. Was excited to hear his discussion about the new inspiration mock-up shuttle facility. I listened pretty closely but didn't hear any talk about an opening date. Check the museum website and couldn't find that either. I'd like to know when it opens. Do you know what that is? And the answer is about 18 months, god willing, and the river don't rise, as john wayne used to say. So I'd say within two years, knowing how things go with museums and municipalities and all that, but maybe sooner.

03:10 - Tariq Malik (Host)
Yeah, they got to build the building, they got to get all the all the ducks in a row. All that fun stuff.

03:14 - Rod Pyle (Host)
But stay tuned with us and we won't let you miss out on it. All right, let's do some headlines. Yes, headline news. I actually shut up long enough to let it play this week. Yeah, all right so this may not be the the most important headline, but I thought it was the coolest. Uh, voyager phones back home on its old landline.

03:42 - Tariq Malik (Host)
That's's right. That's right. So you know this is from spacecom this one here, but a lot of other folks also covered it and JPL. Let us know about Voyager 1, the farthest flung spacecraft that we have out there in interstellar space, and actually it had a problem last month, just a couple of weeks ago. It had a command that got sent through the Deep Space Network that had it turn off a heater and then that issue led to its primary X-band transmitter turning off and it switched over to another one that uses less power this backup one and they were able to get it to bounce back using a radio transmitter that they haven't used since 1981.

04:26
We got to do the math for that, because it's 2024 right now. So what is that? 81, is that? That's 33 years? Remember why I didn't major in astronomy? Is that? Did I get that right? Someone write in to tell me if I got that right or not? So, man, you know the stuff that I leave turned off for 33 years, like I go back to it and the batteries have all leaked out and like destroyed the whole thing. And the fact that this spacecraft was able to make that transfer and keep phony home was pretty, pretty amazing, and it's just Well, the fact that it works at all. I know, right, I mean it's just sitting there doing its thing out there and they had that really scary kind of communications outage from the computer issues that they had over the last year and they're getting really close a few years shy of 50 years. They're hoping it's going to get that long.

05:20 - Rod Pyle (Host)
I just got a question from somebody on Discord asking if I have live jellyfish behind me. That's right, those are actually little aliens for the planet Zontar, otherwise known as fake jellyfish in a little enclosure. So there's no non-invertebrate animal cruelty here. Okay, Now this is kind of a big one. China's Sputnik moment, courtesy of our friend Leonard David, I think also on Spacecom.

05:43 - Tariq Malik (Host)
Yeah, this was, but I believe that he actually also wrote this for his own publication too. Which is what is it LeonardDavidcom Space, the Outer Space News, outer Space? I think it's Outer Space News.

05:58 - Rod Pyle (Host)
He's got some weird title for it. I can't remember what it is.

06:03 - Tariq Malik (Host)
But yeah, you know. So China has moved up its plans for a Mars sample return mission and wants to do it before the United States and NASA are able to do it, and so they're looking to try to get to get it before NASA's big 2040 deadline and then I guess they're going to try to do it for less than 11 billion that NASA already thinks it's going to cost.

06:27 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Okay, now wait, just to be fair. If you talk to the people on the JPL side, they did say as low as 6.5 billion, as high as 11.

06:37 - Tariq Malik (Host)
So that number was kind of pulled out of the card deck a little unceremoniously, but yeah. Yeah, but this came out of China's second International Deep Space Exploration Conference. They just had it in September and I'm sure I'm going to pronounce this wrong, so I do apologize to everyone out there. Huangshan City in Antwi, antwa and the province I apologize again where they said that they're moving I don't think most of their provinces are pronounced in French, but that's okay.

07:05 - Rod Pyle (Host)
We'll ask Rick when he gets here, because he speaks Chinese.

07:07 - Tariq Malik (Host)
So I'll have to ask Jasmine as well. Liu Zhizhong, the chief designer for their Mars Alpha Return Mission, which is Tianwen-3 is what it's called. They say they're going to launch it now, in 2028, which is a couple of years previously than scheduled. So they basically moved it up a Mars launch cycle because they think that they're going to be able to do that and then get the samples back that same year, which sounds crazy that they'd be able to do that.

07:37
But I guess the plan here is to launch two different missions on two long long march. Five rockets, uh, you know, get there, so you've got your carrier and your lander uh uh spacecraft, and then you have your return vehicle spacecraft and uh and in that same window. So you use the whole, the whole transit window that you're able to get back on a direct uh uh return a lot easier than um uh, than if you had to wait like few years, two years, to come back again. So it's very interesting. They've got a few candidate landing spots that meet up their engineering constraints. I'm doing air quotes for people who aren't watching the video Engineering constraints means flat and safe.

08:21
It says engineering constraints. That do not. I missed this all wrong. Spit it out.

08:32
Engineering constraints that don't respect national boundaries. So it's not about landing near a previous lander, it's about landing in a place where it's safe and scientifically interesting to do so. But they'll very much follow that standard sample return thing. Where you have your lander, you're collecting samples, you know your launch rendezvous docking in Mars orbit and then you know returning them direct to Earth. Whether that includes a rover, which is a lot more complication to go off and do something, I think it's safe to say that they may not do that. They didn't do that with the Chang'e 5 mission and the Chang'e 6 missions. They just kind of scooped them with the lander itself. That's a lot of dependability that they've proven at the Moon and it's safe to assume that they use that same technology that they know works on Mars as well. And it's safe to assume that they use that same technology that they know works on Mars as well.

09:27 - Rod Pyle (Host)
So and it's kind of like what the US did in the 60s and the Soviets to a degree, which is, you know, let's go down and get a grab sample and, in this case, bring it home. So it is important to note and, by the way, leonard's site is inside outer space.

09:40 - Tariq Malik (Host)
Inside outer space. Oh my gosh, you're welcome Bit of a brain space there outer space, inside outer space.

09:44 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Oh my gosh, you're welcome, but they're they're kind of going to do, we think, the equivalent of a contingency sample, which is let's go down, get what we can get without too much complication uh, maybe a rover, but probably not going very far because they, their rovers haven't lasted very long yet and then bring it back, as opposed to the nasa plan which, kind of typical in nasa fashion, got very big and very complicated because they wanted to bring back all the drill core samples.

10:10
That curiosity has taken over the excuse me, perseverance has taken over the years, and what was never clear to me in that plan was whether they were just going to go for the ones being carried on the rover or try and pick up the ones dropped.

10:22
And I guess part of that depended on whether they can get the rover or try and pick up the ones dropped, and I guess part of that uh depended on whether they could get the rover maneuvered to the uh sample return lander and managed to transfer them all over, or if they were going to have to go pick them up at the drop sites, which is a lot more complicated, and the last time I was jpl on the robotic side, I saw a guy working with the uh, the retrieval arm for the fetch rover when they were still going to have a fetch rover, and you know the complication involved.

10:49
When you think about it, it's like well, you just go get it right. It's like no, you have to have an arm with, I think, six degrees of freedom and it's got to be able to do this and reach over its shoulder and pick the thing up, and if it's rolled under a rock, you got to be able to sneak it out of there and all that. So it's a big, complicated deal, which is why you get up into the James Webb Space Telescope budget range and if anybody cares about the opinions of this show, just do it Okay.

11:13 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
Just go get our samples.

11:15 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Because when Perseverance launched and we had heard about this sample gathering ability, gathering ability, and yet there was no yet approved mission or budget to go get them, it was like, please don't do what I think you're going to do, which is get halfway downstream and go gosh, this is expensive, let's stop so nasa where have we heard that before? Right, go get those darn samples. Okay, last one boeing for sale.

11:44 - Tariq Malik (Host)
Or is it what's going to happen, buddy? Yeah, this is really interesting. This one actually came out of the Wall Street Journal this week or just over last week, but it looks like the new CEO of Boeing, who I think took over over the summer and this is from a subscription story, but we picked it up too. But they're looking at potentially spinning off and selling the space line, the space business at Boeing.

12:13 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Except for SLS.

12:14 - Tariq Malik (Host)
Except for SLS. Yeah, no, this is the Starliner stuff, this is the other bits and bobs, because SLS is a big contract that already works right At great expense, and this is something that I think you and I talked about in the past when we were wondering what was going to happen with Starliner, like when's the next mission going to fly? What are they going to do? So this could have a lot of impact on that program there, depending on if they think it's viable to sell that line of their business and then also if the people that decide that it's worth it for them to pick it up want to keep that stuff going forward, and that's a really big question, isn't it?

12:58 - Rod Pyle (Host)
It's like, okay, we've got oh, how can I put this kindly We've got this Corvair of a spacecraft, to put it back in 1960s terms. So far, anyway, you know, it works, it's worked out. It just doesn't work properly yet, and to me, a complete amateur outside observer on this kind of thing. But you know the people that have the money that don't yet have a spacecraft or Blue Origin. They've got a Moonlander, they're working on two of them, I think, but as far as I know they don't have a crewed spacecraft beyond what they use on New Shepard, which probably wouldn't be something you'd want to have in orbit for extended times with those great big windows. Could they reconfigure it, sure? Or could they maybe save some money by doing a fire sale over a Boeing and getting the Starliner? One wonders.

13:46 - Tariq Malik (Host)
Yeah, it's interesting because, as others have picked up, the Wall Street Journal had people familiar with the matter.

13:53
They were confidential sources and it's not just the SLS system that they would kind of keep, but also the commercial satellite stuff which they're building, the buses and whatnot.

14:05
They would keep that too. Um, and boeing wasn't, you know, dishing on what their plans were, as you would expect, you know they they don't comment or on on rumors or speculation, is what their, their person said, but, uh, but it would be interesting to see, like, if they, um, uh, you know if, if the fact that the space station is retiring, which a lot of work would be included in that space division sale, if that is a major factor in deciding to spin this off now, when we know that by the end of the decade there won't be a space station you know to support, as there was, boeing built all of those huge things, you know, those trusses and whatnot on it to keep it all going. You know way back when. So it'll be interesting to see how this all pans out Now. They're not the only group that is potentially up for sale. We've heard that ULA might be up for sale Again we haven't heard too much about that.

15:01
I'm curious if they're waiting for the next Vulcan flight. But we'll have to see how these develop, because if both of those get sold especially if it's to other competitors, like the Blue Origins of the world, like someone else that is developing a different technology, then how is that going to mean and is the market going to get smaller? Or is NASA's need for independent access through different lines which has been useful with the stalls that we saw this summer is that going to actually be realized? Or is it all going to get snapped up by one mega company? All?

15:37 - Rod Pyle (Host)
right. Hold on the red line is ringing. Hello, yes, sorry, sorry. Okay, that was Bill Nelson. He says stop talking about NASA. All right, end of headlines. We'll be back after this short break, so go nowhere with Dr Rick Gine.

15:55
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16:56
We are back with Dr Rick Gennay and I'm going to. Instead of reading off your CV, rick, I'm just going to read your journey as I see it plotted out. So Tarek's going to ask you about your younger years and how you got interested in space Spoilers. When I first got interested in this stuff myself, you were at MIT getting your undergraduate and I think were you getting your master's there or just your bachelor's? Just my bachelor's? Okay, getting a bachelor's at MIT is like getting a PhD at Harvard. Then went on to Caltech to get a doctorate in astrophysics, which blows my mind, because higher math blows my mind right up my right ear, I assume you did a couple of postdocs, ended up at JPL at one point, yep, and then maybe skipping some steps which I'll allow you to go through. But on to Brownsville and expanding frontiers. So can you kind of walk us through your career path here, cause this is pretty heady stuff.

17:52 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
Sure, sure. Well, I guess I've always one of the cases where I was always interested in space. Just, you know, from the get-go. I don't remember when I wasn't interested in space and maybe Star Wars inspired me, maybe it was before that it's hard to say, but I did actually see Star Wars in the movie theater before it was called Episode 4 or whatever they were doing with that. So, yeah, so that kind of dates me right there.

18:21
But, yeah, went to MIT. My degree was actually in physics, because really, if going into astronomy and astrophysics, as you know, you usually go into something with physics or engineering or something like that and then move from there. And then I did do a brief stint at the Center for Space Research. I actually worked on, I guess, a satellite mission it's called the X-ray Timing Explorer. It lasted for like 10 years or so. Then eventually was put out of service, but a lot of great science came out of that. And then went to Caltech. It was. You know, it was one of these things where, well, I should apply, so let me go. You know it was one of these things where well, I should apply, so let me go. Uh, you know, apply. You apply to, like I don't know hundreds of schools and occasionally one or two might return your call um or return the envelope. Remember when you had to actually mail in mail-in applications? That's right.

19:16
Yeah, that's, that's a long in the past there and, worse yet, you had to go get transcripts by hand had to get transcripts, had to mail in the applications of that kind of, had to get the letters from all everyone and put it in the packet, anyway, then I went to Caltech, had an amazing time at Caltech. Yeah, it just, you know, mentors of mine were, you know, top level scientists or Nobel Prize winners or whatever you know it was. Just there'll be people walking around. It's just like, well, you're an interesting character, what did you do? Ah, I invented the strain gauge. Oh, okay, is that all you know things, things like that. So it was a, it was fantastic experience.

19:55
Um, I then took a small stint in the oil and gas industry uh, I guess nearly 2000s. It was an amazing little time there. Um, worked for a group called Slumber Jay uh, one of the big oil and gas consulting companies, and then came back to NASA, jpl, um, so again, that was, you know, a fantastic and amazing place. It was 2003, 2004. And you know, there were. I got to see, uh, you know, things that were heading, you know, being being shipped off to mars, being packed up and people in their bunny suits and that kind of that kind of stuff. I wasn't necessarily working on that, I just got to see it. I was, I was working, I was over in the the general relativity group doing stuff with pulsars and gravitational wave detection type things.

20:39 - Tariq Malik (Host)
That's how cool it does as one does. I was going to say how cool it to be able to say I was at the general relativity group.

20:45 - Rod Pyle (Host)
I can barely remember what it means. Okay, sorry, continue.

20:51 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
So through all of that now, all right, I'll just harken back. I actually started my career in my dad's butcher shop in Jamaica, queens. So you know, one of the first things is learn how to cut up a chicken and the second thing you learn is how to deal with people, two very important skills, uh, going through life, um, and uh, you know from that um it was, I guess, something that I got from my dad the importance of giving back to the community and the fact that the community is, you know, that which supports you. He was very, he was very attuned to that and, matter of fact, the community definitely supported him and it was a mutual, you know, relationship between his business and the stuff he was doing there and the community. And I guess that rubbed off on me because I guess in my next steps in my career, I wanted to go to a place where I could have an impact in the community but also do what I love to do.

21:53
I chose Brownsville, texas. Now, the reasons for that was there was a budding astrophysics group there that was just kind of getting started and then, you know, I was, they had a position, a professorship position there at the University of Texas, brownsville and I went and the people, the community that I saw there was a community that really wanted to become better than it was Like. They understood the value of education, they understood the value of working, for, you know, working hard and making things happen. And you know, I saw that I'm like, wow, this is pretty amazing. I would love to be able to be a part of that. And given that they, you know, were starting to have this physics and astronomy department there, I said, hey, this could be fun. So yeah, so I came to, I went basically from JPL down. There was basically connecting students from the high school level and the undergraduate level into, or getting them excited about, STEM careers through astronomy and astrophysics Basically using space as a way of getting them involved and interested and excited. I got an NSF career award which helped to bring the world's largest radio telescope at the time that was the Arecibo radio observatory bring that to South Texas Now, of course, nowadays everything's done remotely.

23:23
We all understand remote observations and how you do this and whatnot. Back then it wasn't necessarily the case. So we were one of the first groups to do something like this and I built a fully operational command and control room for the Arecibo observatory on the campus. Oh, that's cool and yeah. So that got people excited about that, started to do that and whatnot. And really, to make a long story short, that created the first UT Center of Excellence for Space Exploration Development, the Center for Advanced Radio Astronomy down in South Texas, and that put us in a great position when a space company was, you know, nosing around trying to see if they should, you know, make their home or one of their homes down in the South Texas area. And so that center and myself and my colleagues there, we were just in this great position where we could walk up to SpaceX and say, hey, let's do a project together. And that led to the spacecraft tracking and astronomical research into gigahertz astrophysical transient emission Stargate. That was the first program and first real building that was down in Boca Chica Beach.

24:33
A lot has evolved since then, but I can say that my involvement and what I had pushed there and so forth, that myself and my team were the ones responsible for building the SpaceX control room that happens to be down in South Texas. So that was a lot of fun. I did get to shake Elon Musk's hand. Of course he would have no idea who I am, but nonetheless, it was a great moment to see everyone come together around space the students that. So one of the things in the programs that we developed, public presentations were so important. So it wasn't just know your physics and know your mathematics, but it was how do you communicate this? So it wasn't just know your physics and know your mathematics, but it was how do you communicate this? And so when SpaceX was coming and giving their public forums, my students were at the head of the line and they were the ones that were basically saying why it's so important that a company like SpaceX comes to South Texas and the impact that it'll have in the future and for everyone that is there, and basically paving the way for a future for the communities of South Texas. That's around space, which, hey, that's a pretty amazing thing.

25:53
So that led us to expanding frontiers. So that led us to expanding frontiers, wanted to felt that that was the right time to start moving forward. Start, you know, looking at other ways in which we can get the community involved. Something that was important to us still is important to us, is that we know what happens when big companies come in. Right, they don't rightfully so. They have their industry and they have their job to do, and that's what they have to focus on, right.

26:23
And the question is what's gonna happen to everyone else that's there watching the rockets launch, right? They're gonna be really excited. They're gonna be like how do I get involved in this? How do I? You know I'm seeing this happen, what do I, what can I do? And that's kind of where Expanding Frontiers comes in. We want to make sure that everyone in the South Texas region and Texas and the nation in general have the tools they need to participate in this new space economy. That is, of course, that SpaceX and many other groups and many other in Texas that are really leading and making happen. So, yeah, so that's that's. It's been a pretty exciting journey. Um, I left out an awful lot, but I don't want too many yawns on this. So, um, there you go.

27:07 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Okay, that was great. Well, thanks everybody for joining us, and that's our show. No, just kidding.

27:12 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
Let's jump to an ad real quick, and then we'll be back with Tarek's burning questions Stand by.

27:17 - Tariq Malik (Host)
Yeah, well, you know, rick, thank you for that, for that you know quick kind of tour, I guess, of your career. My big question, my first question, usually when we have someone come in, is to find out how the space bug bit you in the first place. And you kind of mentioned a little bit there about Star Wars back when it was still just called Star Wars, and I'm wondering was that it, or was there something else, something more like actual, like spacey, like a moon knight or something that really got you know little Ricky or Rick sorry I don't want to presume excited about, I guess, about what the final frontier might hold. I mean, I'm just curious kind of how you found space in the first place that first time.

28:04 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
Sure. So I can answer this along two lines. First line is kind of just what I thought it was when I was that age, and you know, star Wars played a role, star Trek played a role, having the opportunity to go and listen to some astronauts at the time talking about various things. Matter of fact, I think it was Scott Carpenter that I saw Back, I don't know. It was in the 70s at that time and he had made some statement along the lines of we don't need astronauts, we need PhDs. So you know, there you go. But the other path that I will say and you don't realize this until you get a lot older is the importance of your parents and the fact that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. And the reason why you're exposed to this stuff is because, well, deep down, they were kind of really excited and interested in about this, right. So I didn't. So, you know, I later found out that my parents were avid watchers of Star Trek when it was coming out before I was even born, right, it was actually coming out on television. I find out, you know, that at one point or another my dad was actually, you know, went to the Air Force and went through the whole initial training and stuff like that, and he tells a story about how he was sitting in his underwear after all the medical exams. And he was I think he was like 20, not even that, something like that and he was just thinking, you know, it's like, hmm, what am I doing? You know, I have this amazing woman that I want to spend the rest of my life with. So I think, uh, you know, I don't think I want to join the air force. And then, unfortunately, they get married and a month later he gets drafted. But that's another, uh, that's another story. But, um, and another thing.

29:54
Um, my mom was a big traveler. She loved to travel and I didn't learn this until I don't know, maybe about seven years ago or so. My mom, who is now 94, she was in her 80s at the time. She came to one of my presentations at the Houston Spaceport that we were having. It then was the Houston Technology Center and I was there and we had NASA representatives and so forth and I was just talking about stuff that we're doing spending frontiers, all this kind of stuff. Anyway, all of a sudden afterwards, when it was kind of everyone was talking to everyone, I saw my mom talking to one of the NASA officials Right and we were just having a conversation and so forth, and I think, basically, my mom asked her it's just like if you had the opportunity to go up, would you go up? And the woman was like, yeah, I'd go up. And the woman asked her what about you? She said I'd be there in a heartbeat. And I'm like what?

31:02
So you know, children always like to think that they were the ones that you know had these ideas and this is the way. You know, it's just them, especially in the US. But really, you're so involved, you're so influenced by those that are around you, and your parents, especially at that age. So really, if I'm going to answer the question truthfully, why is it? I did what I did and where I am, and it's because of the influence of two very amazing people that wanted the best for me and guided me towards, you know, guided me towards this. So that's that.

31:29 - Tariq Malik (Host)
That's great, that's great. And again I tip my hat to you for the PhDs, because, man, the math just to get out. We've talked about that a lot of the show.

31:39 - Rod Pyle (Host)
We whined to each other about the moments we both discovered in our our planned careers in science and the university level where the math caught up with us and it was like, oh, this is really bad. So that was the end of it for me at UCLA. I have a bunch of questions, but I think I'll just jump, uh, jump ahead here a little bit. Were there so, in listening to your your journey here, we've got the PhD, the science background, doing hardcore research at JPL and other places. And then the next thing I know you're in Texas and expanding frontier shows up. Did you have a lot of background in nonprofits before that, or was this just kind of a leap of faith for you?

32:21 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
Yeah, that's a great question. The best way, the really short answer, is no, of course not. But then when you think about it a little bit further, I spent my entire life in nonprofits. Right, because it was just all in universities, except for that small stint in oil and gas. That was not a nonprofit. But everything else was basically in nonprofits, nonprofit educational institutions and so forth. So in that sense, you know there, that was just. When you're in that environment you can't help but have it understand various things. But in terms of running a nonprofit and so forth, no, that was just a. It was a leap of faith. It was knowing that what we're doing is predominantly a benefit to the community and that's the way we wanted to keep it, that the nonprofit was the way to go for this.

33:16 - Tariq Malik (Host)
And for folks, rick, who maybe aren't as familiar as I know that Rod and you are, when you're trying to describe expanding frontiers to them and like the mission as a nonprofit, both to the folks that are involved and then to the community as a whole, what is for our listeners who are live right now and will come later, you know what is the overarching goal, how do you structure it? You know. How do you, you know, give back through expanding frontiers for that community in Brownsville, for the students, et cetera.

33:49 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
Sure, sure, sure. So our mission is to promote the innovation ecosystem in South Texas. It is. We focus around space and oil and gas, or space and energy, I should say, because those are two big areas in Texas, and you know why.

34:08
Why would something like Expanding Frontiers, why should it exist in South Texas, right? So if you were, say you know, anywhere else, say you were on the East Coast, you were in New York or you're in Boston, or you're in San Francisco, california, and you wanted to learn about entrepreneurship, right, and I will challenge people to do this. You want to learn about entrepreneurship? Sit in a coffee shop and what are you going to do? Just listen to people. And I've done this. When I first thought of this, I'm like come on, I wonder if that's true. And I just did this. I just sit in coffee shops in new york, or, you know, boston, over here, or wherever I were in these places, and you start listening. It's like, oh yeah, I got this deal going on. I got, you know, a couple of million that I want to get here. Or you know, I'm just entering my series a over here, it's like, and then you have another group that's talking about your gaussian statistics and all of this kind of stuff. It's like that's just, it's there, it's in the culture.

35:01 - Tariq Malik (Host)
It's very easy to I feel like, I feel like rick, that we go to different coffee shops well, he is in boston, that's right new jersey. So no, I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt, but no no, no worries, no worries.

35:15 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
Well, you gotta just gotta listen for it. So, wow, this is that type of culture. Isn't quite there, especially when you're looking at unless you're looking at technology startups and you're looking for things that scale beyond the, beyond the family or beyond the. I mean there are. There are, you know, entrepreneur trainings that talk about, you know, opening up a restaurant Perfectly fine. You need restaurants right, or cleaners or something like that Perfectly fine. We need that. Community needs all of that in the ecosystem.

35:48
But when it comes to all right, I have a piece of technology that's sitting on NASA's shelf and I want to take that and turn that into something that satisfies you know, some value or had some value. And then I want to figure out how I manufacture that. I want to figure out how I, you know fundraise for that. I want to, you know, whatever it is needed to grow that so that it has a much larger impact than just the area and the region.

36:14
That type, you know, that type of motivation, the skills and stuff like that is not exactly native to this region. So that's why we exist is to sort of help foster that. We knew that because we were going to have these rocket launches, um, exactly the type and style of it and so forth, uh, wasn't, you know it changed over time, um, and we knew that it was going to be a big inspiration. It's just like, yeah, you have an entrepreneur everyone you know call you know, everyone knows he's an entrepreneur, right, um, and he's like he's doing this amazing stuff. Like how do you do it?

36:57 - Tariq Malik (Host)
and we should. We should point out we're obviously referring to, uh, spacex's elon musk and and the fact that spacex has their starbase facility just like across the street or even like right next to your stargate thing. I wanted, I'm going to ask you about that, like I mentioned earlier.

37:12 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Um, but uh, okay, hang on one second because we gotta run to a break and then you can ask whatever you want. Is that fair?

37:18 - Tariq Malik (Host)
No, no, no, that's fair. No, no, I know you've got a question coming up next. I just wanted to let people know that that's who we're talking about.

37:24 - Rod Pyle (Host)
For these ones, good thinking, okay, and speaking of talking about things, we're going to talk about our sponsor for a moment. We'll be right back.

37:31 - Tariq Malik (Host)
You know, rick, you know you mentioned why you had selected Brownsville and it seems like a bit of a really good forward-looking for the non-profit there too and for Stargate too. I was really struck back in 2019 when I went out there for the first I guess it was for Starship Unveiling way back when they just had the little I guess I don't want to say little, but that's what it was at that time a prototype and I was really struck as we parked the car to see the Stargate building like there.

38:03 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Are you talking about Stargate or Starbase?

38:05 - Tariq Malik (Host)
No Stargate. This is before they even called it Starbase. It was just like the facility there. But you saw the promise a bit early on, you know, than maybe most people have. And it seems like you're in a really opportune location now to reach out to students, to reach out to veterans, to reach out to the folks that you're trying to raise up in the community. And I'm just curious was it really evident or was it like a gamble, when you were thinking about the area and what the impact could be there? Or was it just very clearly on the wall, the fact that SpaceX was involved already? So this is a place that I want to set up, shop for expanding frontiers, etc. Or was there some other stuff because of the energy side of things that was already entrenched in the region?

39:03 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
Right, no, great question. And when I first came there, the space launch from that region was not being considered. And no, I take that back. Actually, believe it or not, there was a spaceport. That was when I first got there. I think it was an official spaceport, it was around 2000 actually, but it was these kinds of things. You know the fact that they haven't.

39:28
You know the university and it was building a physics and astronomy group, the fact that there was, you know, excitement. There were people that were kind of had this forward looking, uh, visions that were there. You could just kind of it was all kind of coming together. It's just like, yeah, there's something, there's something here. It is not established. Uh, it's definitely people thinking and dreaming and looking forward. Uh, for this, uh, spacex was definitely not there, uh, but, um, I believe there is something called the Willisee County spaceport or something like that. That was, that was there and it was. It was something that was supposed to be for engine testing and things like that, which you know it was pretty amazing for 2000, 2001,. For thinking, thinking along those those lines.

40:14 - Tariq Malik (Host)
But go ahead. Well, yeah, I was just going to ask about, then, you know, just know, knowing then that you're all set up there now, like, what's the size of the program? Or, or does it depend on, uh, on on individual projects that you're working on to bring in, uh, uh, students or veterans, or, or, uh, or future entrepreneurs and uh, uh, you know? Or, or is there like a, like, a specific, what's the word Attendance? You know you have X amount of slots for folks to go through, right, right.

40:41 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
So it depends on the program. So I guess our entry-level programs kind of. You know where we interface with high school students, we have something called the Space Entrepreneur Summer Academy, which I like to say. It teaches or introduces students everything from Newton's laws to how to pitch a venture capital firm. So, you know, they're learning, they're learning laws of gravity and then they're also learning how to put together a pitch deck. So it's a three-week crash course on everything you need to know to be an entrepreneur. And we've had so that's that has 30 slots.

41:23
Um, we typically only take those that are uh, kind of you know in the region, uh, and they can kind of get there, uh, they can drive there. We have been piloting online versions. We've worked. I think we've had several. Um, we have had a lot of interest and some involvement with uh students from Mexico, from the Mexican side, to partake in the program as well. So we're trying to figure out best ways of doing sort of an online virtual piece of that. So it's hybrid, so that's one piece. So we get 30 students. Matter of fact, the last last year, I think, was a was just an enormous interest. That was the first time we really had to cut. We had to make cuts Cause, yeah, we can basically only take. We can only take about 30. Then we have the Space Settlement Design Tournament, which Rod actually had the opportunity to see and be involved in, which was awesome. Hopefully we can get him back again Anytime so that 200 students basically come together and the amazing thing about this is they become part of the.

42:26
Basically it's an industry simulation where they, for a weekend, they break into teams of 50. And they have to put together a proposal for a space settlement and basically got to learn how to do that, how to operate and work together with people. You've into teams of 50 and they have to put together a proposal for a space settlement and basically got to learn how to do that, how to operate and work together with people you've never known before, most likely and put together this proposal, and it was based on the work of several engineers. Anita Gale was one of them who, unfortunately, we lost earlier this year, but Anita Gale, then CEO of the National Space Society, had created the competition format, to which we worked closely with her to adapt to this awfully online version. So enables us to reach more students, which is something she always wanted to do, and we were very fortunate. The last one that Rob was part of was actually sponsored by the state of Chiapas, mexico, and we had about 200 students participate in that. So that's the entry level. That's the entry level pieces.

43:36 - Rod Pyle (Host)
And that was a really exciting program and I, when I did my little talk at the beginning, I couldn't figure out if they were looking at me like, oh, this is a NASA guy or who is this clown.

43:47
It was one of the two, but it was a really motivated group and I, as regular listeners know, I spent some time down in Ecuador, about, I guess, six months ago now, doing something similar, talking to young people, and the energy in your group is kind of similar, which is, you know, these are people from from a place where there isn't much happening in space or high tech, and you know what an incredible it's like suddenly being able to see there's a Stargate standing ahead of me that I can step through and join in this incredible adventure, and you're providing something really valuable and I hope you can go down, do it in person someday, because that would be more exciting. I think I wanted to ask about well, I had the Space Summit design competition written down here, but you've already talked about that the CISA Entrepreneur in Residence program for space coding or for coding, I guess you call it space coders.

44:40 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
That's right.

44:40
Yeah, so we so, um, so there's two aspects of that, but yes, we, we bring on.

44:45
It's basically an internship program focused around coding for, um, space industry related programs and projects. Um, so the division there is as we're moving forward, with the various different entrepreneurial groups that are developing their, their companies and so forth, uh, they're going to need a workforce, of course, to pull in, and coding is always one piece that you can pretty much be guaranteed that these groups are going to need. So the idea is we make sure that we have a set of intern entrepreneurs, interns, these space coders that are working on various problems, so that, as these companies need resources, we're able to provide those resources. So that's where that piece comes from. In the past, we've had them work on projects with companies that are developing stuff for the moon, developing communication systems, for satellite communication systems, various things, and also more down to earth sensor systems, but still NASA technologies and so forth. So they get the opportunity to really work on these real world problems and real world issues associated with coding, for, you know, for technology.

46:07 - Tariq Malik (Host)
And you have another track, like a technology oriented one, with your tech track. Can you describe what that goal of that one is?

46:14 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
as well, excellent. So the tech track we're very excited about that. We just finished the formal I guess the NASA piece of it. So the Tech Trek has been an evolution of programming that we've been doing for entrepreneurs. So the whole idea is developing programming that we can get aspiring entrepreneurs working on and developing space-related technology. A couple of key things there aspiring entrepreneurs we take a different approach than perhaps other incubator, accelerator type programs which kind of and I understand why but they require you to be kind of ahead, a little bit more ahead like, all right, you need to have your technology, you need to have your business plan and then we can connect you and move you forward and all of that kind of stuff, right. But, as I was saying earlier, that stuff is hard to come by here in South Texas, but we definitely have people that would love to do it if they just knew how. So that's what. So the entrepreneurial programs we develop sort of have that as the heart, where and we started developing this with something called Rockets and Rigs.

47:21
I think it was like 2016,. 2017 is when we started doing these types of things where we worked with NASA, johnson and looking at on-the-shelf technologies. On-the-shelf, I guess it's technologies that they would license and trying to figure out other uses for them and then connecting the entrepreneurs to this technology and helping with the licensing and helping them develop the tech and the business model and the business case and so forth and so on. So that went through several integrations. There was rockets and rigs at first, then it became the Entrepreneur in Residence Apprenticeship Program era, as we call it, and then recently that moved into the NASA tech trick. Um, and really it has to do with who's funding us. But, um, we were very, uh, we were very excited when, uh, nasa headquarters basically said hey, we really, you know, we really love what you're doing and really inspired by, uh, what you're doing, uh, once you run something for us, um, and that's what? Uh, that's what came're doing, why don't you run something for us? And that's what became the NASA Tech.

48:25 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Trek. I mean, just getting noticed by them is a really big deal.

48:31 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
So, no, we were like, wow, this is awesome. And so the program, you know, we moved to a five-month, six-month program. We have adjusted things based on lessons learned, all of that kind of stuff, and we ended up with seven teams all developing startup companies around a NASA technology. So, you know, one case would be you know a group that was looking at technologies on the space station and said, hey, maybe we can help solve issues with portable toilet solutions using stuff that's developed on the International Space Station. So they're moving forward with that technology.

49:13
You'll have other groups that are looking at virtual reality type things, how it could be stuff that was developed for astronaut training and so forth, how that could be used to enhance the welfare and lives of elderly patients in assisted living facilities.

49:34
So basically, what it is is people are seeing the space technology so there's developed for space using their background to sort of see problems that they would like to solve and realizing, hey, there's tech that was developed just for space but has this use down here. So, yeah, so that's the tech track. We're hoping to be able to run that again next year. But that leads to our Expanding Frontier Space Tech Pitch Competition, which is happening on November 20th and we're going to be showcasing the companies that have gone through our programs, including the NASA Tech Trek companies. I believe all of them, yeah, all of the ones that are going to be showcased have a NASA technology and they're going to be pitching this, pitching live, and, yeah, I would love to invite anyone that wants to come down and, you know, see the event in person. Rod Tarek, if you happen to be there on November 20th, you're more than welcome to come by and have a look.

50:41 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Yeah, okay, tarek, so the challenge has been laid out once more. We need to rent ourselves a condo down in Brownsville so we have a place to lounge around waiting for scholarship launches.

50:51 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
I tell you, we can.

50:52 - Rod Pyle (Host)
I have to tell you and I say this I don't know a few times a year on this show, but I'm so envious of people now being able to do a program like this, because when I was of an age where this would have made sense, basically it was NASA, the prime contractors and big weapons makers and the electric lab at my high school. That was kind of it. So it's really great that there's stuff like this out there. Now we're going to go to one more ad break and then we will be right back, so go nowhere. Rick, uh, you kind of touched on this, but other than nasa, where does most of your funding come from?

51:27 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
because that seems to be the bugaboo for any organization like oh yeah, keep things up definitely and it is, um, it's just the thing that one is always vigilant, um, or I guess, as they, as they say in the entrepreneurial world, one is always closing. But we have sources. It's local, state and federal sources. Donations from sponsors are very important, visionaries that are seeing how this is going to impact and change the region and so forth. And, of course, with that, I would be remiss if I didn't plug that we are looking for sponsors for our space tech pitch competition, and so sponsorships are still available. So please go to our website and follow the links there. So, yeah, it's a. As with every nonprofit, it is every. It's always the. You know, funding is an important issue and we look for many sources that we possibly can.

52:28 - Tariq Malik (Host)
You know I wanted to. I was really struck. I was reading about, you know, obviously, your mission. And then, when I was down in Brownsville for the last couple of flights, because I was down for the big reveal, you know, back in 2019. And then again last year and it's hard to think that it was just last year for the, for the first, the first starship launch Now that we're on, I guess, fight six coming up, which might happen in the middle of your pitch competition, rick, because it could happen this month as we're recording this now.

53:01
But I was a big and this is going to seem like a non sequitur until it doesn't, so please bear with me. I was a really big, you know, sci fi fan, you know, growing up and then in college and still am now. And I had read a lot of the Ben Boba series of sci fi books and one of the entrepreneurs in in one of his series is this guy, dan Randolph, entrepreneur from South Texas, from South Padre Island, where he tests, you know, all sorts of new reusable rockets and whatnot. And here we are now in real life where you've got, you know, the expanding frontier's goal to bring that next generation together in the future with a current generation of an entrepreneur with reusable rockets in South Texas doing the same exact thing that Ben Boba envisioned in those sci-fi books all those years ago. And every now and then it strikes me.

53:59
I don't think about it all the time, but it's just really strange that you have real life imitating sci-fi that was growing out of the real space race there as well. Or is it just a matter of happenstance that you know this is where the land was, that's what brought SpaceX there. Or this is where the university was, that's what brought you there that kind of a thing? Is it just a matter of coincidence, or was there a bit of art or life imitating, art imitating?

54:36 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
life that you can see there In terms of in this particular region, you could say that you know location, location, location. Just you know it is a rather special region. Um, we are on, we are on a border, we are, uh, you know, I think we have every kind now. We have every single kind of port possible, right, we have an airport, we have a seaport, we have a spaceport all and we have borders. So we're at the boundary of just about everything To which we know. When you're at boundaries, that's where a lot of innovation does tend to happen, and so forth. It is interesting. I didn't know about Ben Bova and South Texas. I want to know more about that, of course, and try to see. It'd be interesting to know what his inspiration was for that. We happen to be the southernmost place in the United States and so you know, there are some arguments that that's a good place to launch, you know, to do launch and things like that.

55:34 - Tariq Malik (Host)
So, you know, maybe that's what yeah, it's really funny because it was the first time I ever heard of a place called South Padre Island was reading those books and then later I found out that it was like a spring break place that college students went to. And then later that's when I'm staying in a hotel there watching the rockets lift off and it's just a really strange feeling to see that happening there.

55:58 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
But definitely the another way of looking at your question about art and reality and so forth, definitely feel that a lot of that happens. You know, there's a lot of inspiration going both ways. Yeah, and I'll just say that back in the day, when, when, when, when SpaceX was nosing around it was trying to think what can we do with them, had thought of these basic, you know, it's like all right, I think I have a plan for what we could, how we could potentially the university could potentially work with SpaceX and so forth. And I was talking to one of my mentors who is also one of my co-founders at Expanding Frontiers, alma Miller, and I was describing it's like hey, I think we have a way of doing this. Um, and she also is an avid sci-fi, right, and she looked at me, um, and she gave this look, that, um, that teal gave to daniel jackson she gave this look of hmm, indeed right, and that made me think of stargate, right and?

57:00
and the idea was is like huh, if you think about the only way where we go off world now, right now, you're really seeing my science fiction background. The only way we go off world right now. We don't have Stargates. That doesn't exist. What we have are rockets. So really, what we're developing and building down here in South Texas is the Stargate, and that's where the inspiration for the name came from.

57:26 - Tariq Malik (Host)
We should point out that Teal is an alien in the Stargate SG-1 TV show very long running, and Daniel Jackson was the scientist in both the original film and the TV show. By the way, that original film is a great Kurt Russell film. Everyone should look it up. By the way, my wife and I bonded over Stargate.

57:45 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Oh, good Lord, Okay, we don't need to hear that inside story, yeah, okay. So, rick, what do you see in the future for Expanding Frontiers? Any new programs or expansion of existing programs, resuscitation of older programs, anything?

58:03 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
So we have, I guess, in our you know our strategy of looking forward, how do we continue to develop the region, and so forth.

58:12
I guess for almost a decade now, we have been working on this concept of an innovation corridor, a space innovation corridor from Brownsville to Houston. Incarnations came up about the space city and why not have new space city, things like that, and so we have been working very strategically with groups in Houston to start to develop these relationships. Matter of fact, many of our advisors and mentors for our startups are from Houston, currently in Houston, and they work with us with these startups because they have a passion for entrepreneurship and, of course, nasa Johnson is right there, and so it's almost know bookends to what could be a very, uh, very interesting, uh, plan for, uh, an innovation. You know how do we spur innovation, uh, in that entire region? So, um, I think there are things coming up, uh, you know where we would be, uh, working on that some more, especially with some funding opportunities that are going to make themselves uh and so forth, and so we're working to help drive that initiative. So it will be very exciting.

59:28 - Tariq Malik (Host)
Yeah, do keep us posted when your first alumni launches something or themselves into space. You know from the inspiration and the skills that they learned at your program there, so it's really inspiring the work that you're doing there and I have one last question.

59:48 - Rod Pyle (Host)
I note here that you speak Chinese. How the heck did that happen? I've tried, it's really hard.

01:00:00 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
So back in the noughties I was a new professor and the research work that I was working on I had Chinese colleagues and so forth Australian and Chinese colleagues and through all of that I met a very dynamic professor at Danjing University, Professor Peng Chuhua, and he and I developed a series of summer programs in China to teach Chinese students, you know, bring them up to speed in gravitational wave astronomy, and you know we did. I think we ran a whole series of those. It was really quite an amazing time. So a lot of the China and the Chinese region and so forth. So that's kind of where the initial inspiration for all of that came from. And, yeah, I guess that's just having been immersed in it definitely, Definitely helped. So so, yeah, now that was, that was a an exciting, An exciting time there.

01:01:09 - Rod Pyle (Host)
So this just tells you about the, the neurodivergence in our society. I've lived in a household now for 15 years and if you include when I was married, like 40 years where Chinese was spoken to some extent or a lot, and I know about three words and I keep trying and every time I do she just looks at me and goes don't try.

01:01:32 - Tariq Malik (Host)
I guess that'll help you.

01:01:36 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Yeah, okay. Well, so my last question for you is what does expanding frontiers need today?

01:01:46 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
What do we need? Ah well, we always need funding. That's, I think, the biggest, biggest piece is we we have. We're now in a position where people are, you know, are seeking us out, for like students are seeking us out, where the programs are starting to fill up a whole of this, these kinds of thing, but it's, it's the funding that helps us move, that helps us move forward and make these things, these things possible.

01:02:13 - Rod Pyle (Host)
All right, well, that's. That's always a good way to end, so.

01:02:17 - Tariq Malik (Host)
Well, and they should probably head to the website, right, If they, if there if there's a donor.

01:02:21 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Okay, okay, we got to do the plug right, but first I want to thank everybody for joining us for episode one 35, entitled the spacer pipeline. Okay, so for Tariq's question. Rick, where's the best place for us to follow EXF's progress and get more info on what we can do and how we can engage?

01:02:40 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
Excellent, Our website wwwexpandingfrontiersorg.

01:02:45 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Okay, we will put that in the show notes.

01:02:48 - Fredrick Jenet (Guest)
Anthony, there you go If you would have a look there, and there's ways of contacting us. Sign up for the sign-up sheet. And yeah, Can I come?

01:02:56 - Rod Pyle (Host)
attend as a student, even if I'm not in school anymore. We do work with non-students, so yes, sure, with desperate older guys like me. Okay, good, speaking of desperate older guys, tarek, where can we find you gaming your life away?

01:03:09 - Tariq Malik (Host)
What, what? No, you can find me at spacecom, as always on the Twitters at Tarek J Malik. Today is the last day of Chapter 5, season 4 of Fortnite, so I will be in the live event as we're recording this in about like three hours, so feel free to join me if you want. I'm SpaceTronPlays on YouTube and then a new season, so we're going to go celebrate Halloween a little bit late this weekend. That's my big plan, rod.

01:03:38 - Rod Pyle (Host)
Well, everybody's got to have a plan, even if it's a pathetic one like that. And of course now I'm going to get hate mail again. Be nice to Tarek. And of course you can find me at pilebookscom or at astromagazinecom and you can look up my work, along with some of Rick's, at nssorg, which is National Space Society. Please remember, you can always drop us a line, as many do at twisttv, that's T-W-I-S. At twittv, we love getting your comments, suggestions and ideas and we take turns answering them and we won't leave you stranded without an answer.

01:04:14
New episodes of this podcast publish every Friday on your favorite podcatcher. So make sure to subscribe, tell your friends, give us reviews and hey, giveick and us five stars or thumbs up and you can head to our website if you wish. At twittv, slash twis. Finally, you can get all the great programming with video streams on the twit network, ad free on club twit, as well as some extras found only there. Do I have to say it again, tarik? Even a video clip of tarik falling out of his chair, because that's my favorite that's my show highlight.

01:04:43
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