This Week in Law 295 (Transcript)
Denise
Howell: Next up on This Week in
Law, Konstantinos Stylianou and Saurabh Vishnubhakat join Sarah Pearson and me.
We're going to discuss Net Neutrality permutations, patent complications, right
to be forgotten conflagrations, and how not to wind up in a boiling kettle of
Superfish, all next on This Week in Law.
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Denise: This is TWiL, This Week in Law with Denise
Howell and Sarah Pearson, episode 295, recorded March 6, 2015
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Hi, folks. I'm Denise Howell, and you're
joining us for This Week in Law. Thank you so much for joining us. We have two
wonderful scholars joining us this week to help us understand what's going on
and what's controversial at the intersection of law and technology. Joining us
today is Konstantinos Stylianou. Hello, Konstantinos.
Konstantinos
Stylianou: Hello. Very nice to be
here.
Denise: Great to have you. Tell us a bit about your
scholarship. I know you are at the University of Pennsylvania where you are
doing scholarship and studying for a degree; correct?
Konstantinos: That is correct; and the degree is called SGD.
It's a confusing name for PhD in Law.
Denise: Got it.
Konstantinos: And my focus is communications law and policy.
Denise: Wonderful. We will certainly be discussing a
heavy dose of that today. Also joining us is Saurabh Vishnubhakat. Hello,
Saurabh.
Saurabh
Vishnubhakat: Hi there.
Thanks for having me.
Denise: Wonderful to have you, too. Saurabh is also a
student, a post-doctoral student, at the Duke Law School; and he's focusing on
intellectual property, and specifically patent law.
Saurabh: That's right. Most of my work deals with the
intersection of patent law and civil litigation and how the patent system
operates, both on the administrative side and in the federal courts.
Denise: That's great. There's certainly tons of
interesting stuff going on in your area of study; so you're a lucky man that
you get to examine those interesting issues every day. Also joining us is Sarah
Pearson, my co-host. Hello, Sarah.
Sarah
Pearson: Hi, Denise. Happy to
see you.
Denise: Great to see you again, too. What's going on?
Sarah: Nothing new here. I'm just looking forward to
the show to be able to pick the brain of two scholars who have expertise in
stuff that I do not. So I'm excited about that. (Laughs)
Denise: Yes. I'm excited about that, too. We talked a
lot about Net Neutrality last week in the wake of the announcement of the FCC's
new open Internet rules. I think we will start there and try and flesh that out
a bit more this week as well. So let's talk about Net Neutrality.
(The intro plays.)
Denise: Konstantinos, in addition to your work at the
University of Pennsylvania, you've also been involved in doing scholarship and
policy in Brazil; correct?
Konstantinos: Right. Yes. I am a fellow at the Center for
Technology and Society at FGV Law School in Brazil. I am currently in Rio de
Janeiro; and you can be jealous because it's around 80 degrees here.
Denise and Sarah: (Laugh)
Denise: I will definitely be jealous. Lifelong goal to
visit Rio, so definitely on my bucket list. Glad that you're there. Give us one
thing that everybody has to do when they visit Rio.
Konstantinos: I mean, you have to go to the Christ. The view
is breathtaking. I know this is a very tourist thing to say, and most of my
BRAZILIAN friends will probably hate me for that; but the view is just
spectacular. You have to do that.
Denise: All right. It's on my list. All right. So
we're going to get to talking about the Internet Constitution in a little while
that you've been studying and working on while you've been in Brazil. But
you're also — and I think there's some overlap, too, between Brazil's Internet
Constitution and the Net Neutrality rules that the FCC here in the United
States just enacted. But why don't you give us your impression of the open
Internet rules that we've now adopted, and sort of your take on whether they
were a good idea and what sort of international model they might provide.
Konstantinos: Right. So I have to be careful about my
statements about the rules. I'll start with saying that the rules mean well. A
lot of people think that there is a problem to be addressed. There are players
with a lot of market power; there are players that are positioned in such a way
to be able to affect how content flows. And having some rules to prevent that,
prevent unfair discrimination, is a fair thing to ask. At the same time, I
would say that, surprisingly — and we can talk about why the rules were so
surprising. Surprisingly, the new FCC rules were much, much more strong than
people expected. So my overall impression of the rules are that it's a good
move. It's a good thing that we have Net Neutrality rules; but they do go
beyond what the industry might have needed at this point. The reason why I said
it's surprising — and if there is any interest in that direction, we can go in
more detail — is that the last thing we knew about FCC's position on the matter
was a notice of proposed rulemaking that came out in April 2014; and it is
significantly different than the order that actually came out in February. And
most people are theorizing about why that happened. The two Obama interventions
— one with a video and a couple of media appearances in the New York Times
earlier in September — made a lot of people think that he caused Wheeler, the
chairman, to change his mind. But the rules are very different from what the
FCC proposed last year, and I actually think that the rules contained in the notice
of proposed rulemaking of April 2014 were better, were more flexible, less
black and white than the current rules, and adequate to address the concerns of
people that are in favor of Net Neutrality.
Denise: Right. It's sort of a double-edged sword for
the FCC, isn't it, that if they wanted to have sufficient authority to be able
to mandate Net Neutrality, they needed to ground themselves in one of the ways
that they had guidance from the D.C. Circuit in the Verizon case. And the way
they've opted to go is Title II; however, there's a lot in Title II that — I
think this is what you're referring to — that may be more than the FCC needs to
accomplish its goal here; so it's making people concerned about the scope of
the FCC's authority now over the Internet and what it might be able to do, even
though it's saying, No, no, we're going to take a very limited, hands-off
approach despite this authority that we've grounded ourselves in. We got a
really, really sophisticated series of questions from one of our listeners,
Jeff, who wrote in after last week's show with some questions regarding the
decision to reclassify, and some of those concerns, I think, that putting the
Internet under the jurisdiction of Title II raises. And the first concern that
he raises is the extent to which Title II would permit the FCC to regulate
content. In other words, not just to say, You have to treat all traffic
equally; but if some traffic is hate speech, for example, you, as the ISP,
might have to take some steps to make sure that that is not promulgated. What
do you think about the notion that the FCC might have authority to regulate
content under Title II?
Konstantinos: Right. So let me just say a few words about
Title II. The decision to classify broadband Internet as a Title II telecommunications
service was not, strictly speaking, necessary for the FCC to promulgate rules.
The reason why the FCC did it is because it wanted to have as much authority as
possible to promulgate whatever rules it wanted to pass. But even with the previous
Title I information service characterization plus the Section 706, the FCC did
have some authority that would permit it to adopt Net Neutrality rules. So to
say that the only way the FCC could go to adopt meaningful Net Neutrality rules
would be the reclassification as a Title II service is wrong. But once it opted
to do it, it's also one of the things that changed since April 2014 in that
[inaudible], the FCC said that they will probably stick to the original
information service characterization. But anyway, it decided to characterize it
as a Title II. The issue with content regulation is that Title II does not
affect that. Full First Amendment protection applies to the Internet for the
past several years since Reno v. ACLU. So we do know that the Internet enjoys
full First Amendment protection, and Title II does not in any way change how
content can be created in the Internet. To the extent that there was hate
speech allowed or not allowed with the previous regime, it's precisely the same
under this regime. It has no effect on the type of content that can be
generated and hosted on the Internet. So one shouldn't worry about — when we
say that the FCC now is taking a more heavy-handed approach to Internet
regulation, that does not affect the type of content. It only affects how the
content flows in the network as a matter of technical and economic
relationships, not as a matter of freedom of speech expression.
Denise: Right. And we were talking before the show
about the fact that we're still waiting for the actual 300-plus-page —
Konstantinos: Yes. That's going to be —
Denise: — detailed version of the open Internet and
rules from the FCC. Those haven't come out yet. And presumably, the FCC will go
into greater detail about what it thinks its authority under Title II permits
it to do here.
Konstantinos: So the truth is —
Denise: Go ahead.
Konstantinos: Right. So most of the 330 pages are going to
be spent on the provisions from which the FCC will forebear. Because once you
characterize a service as Title II, it automatically incurs the entire set of
obligations that come with Title II; and there are, like, hundreds of them.
Denise: (Laughs)
Konstantinos: And so the FCC, then, has to explain from
which obligations it will forebear because they are not necessary; and it has
to do that in a way that is compatible with the statute. And there are some
steps that it needs to follow. It needs to explain that it's in public interest
that there is enough competition to not need those provisions, in which case it
can forebear, and so on. So the FCC, again, meaning well to protect the open
Internet; but at the same time is creating an immensely Byzantine-complexity,
regulatory regime for the Internet. But I mean, I guess that's a side effect of
trying to create as detailed and good rules as possible.
Denise: Right.
Konstantinos: I guess it went a little over its original
purpose.
Denise: Okay. So listener Jeff has a couple of other
additional good questions. I am going to put our first MCLE pass phrase into
the show before we get to them, though. MCLE stands for mandatory continuing
legal education; and some people listen to this show because, as lawyers — and
sometimes in other professions, too — we have these ongoing education
requirements that are imposed on us in order to continue practicing law, in my
particular case. So for people who are lawyers who listen to the show, we put
these phrases in so that they can demonstrate to their various oversight bodies
— wherever they may be — that they actually did listen to or watch the show. So
our first phrase is going to be "There are, like, hundreds of them."
(Laughs)
Konstantinos: (Laughs)
Denise: So file that away somewhere. And we'll put
another MCLE pass phrase in the show at a later point. Saurabh, do you have any
—
Saurabh: Excuse me. Denise?
Denise: Sure. Go ahead.
Saurabh: Yeah. So I actually had a question for
Konstantinos.
Denise: Yes. Please.
Saurabh: The administrative process, more generally,
has this requirement that when we put out a proposed rule in the public and
whoever wants to comment can do so. Based on that, the administrative body
that's promulgating the rules will then come out with a final rule saying,
Here's what we took into account; either we agreed, or we didn't agree. And in
those cases, where the administrative body basically just goes way further out
of left field, perhaps, from what the original mandate and purpose of the rules
was, it's customary to go to a second round of notice and comment and say,
Look, we're changing direction. The public should give us additional comments
on what we've now changed our direction to. Is it your sense, Konstantinos,
that the FCC will do so, or will it be sort of left to litigation to say that,
look, the final rules were so far removed from what the original idea was that
the public didn't have a chance to fully comment as they should have?
Konstantinos: Well, I mean, the rules have been voted on, so
there isn't, now, any margin for getting any more feedback and incorporating
that feedback. What the FCC will do, though, is — and that's why the rules are
not out yet — they will incorporate the dissenting opinions of the two
commissioners that voted no into the rules and explain why, despite their
opposition, they still went on with whatever rules they adopted. So it is true
— actually, I also have to note this. Even though the FCC took a different
course from the proposed rules in 2014, that doesn't mean that the issues were
different or that they were not raised or that the public didn't have a chance
to comment on those issues. In a way, there's nothing new in the 2015 order
that has not been discussed extensively.
Denise: Right.
Konstantinos: So the public has had a good chance — and they
did so by submitting almost 4 million comments — has had a good chance to
comment on the rules. It's just that the FCC, in the NPRM of 2014,
provisionally stated that, This is the way we think we should go. And then, in
the rules it adopted, it went the other way. But that doesn't change the fact
that both sides had been raised and discussed in the debate.
Saurabh: Yeah.
Denise: And even in April 2014 when the FCC put out
various issues for comment at that time and received its many millions of
comments in return, Section 706 versus Title II was on the table then. It was
not the direction the FCC seemed to be heading, but they did solicit comment
on, Which way should we head?
Konstantinos: Correct. Correct.
Denise: Right.
Konstantinos: And they solicited comments as well on whether
they should reclassify as Title II, although at the same time noting that
that's not the way they think they should go at the time.
Denise: Right. All right.
Sarah: Can —
Denise: Let's get back to Jeff, who asked a couple of
— sorry, Sarah. Did you have one more thing?
Sarah: I was just going to ask a follow-up for
Konstantinos, which was, You mentioned that you think that the rulemaking goes
too far. Is that just because of the Title II reclassification generally and
the breadth of things that they will be able to do, or were there specific
things in the order that concerned you beyond that?
Konstantinos: There are a lot of things in the order that
concern me. One of the things is, again, once the FCC decided to go with Title
II, it was inevitable that the whole thing will get too complex and they would
have to go into very intricate details about how to deal with the just and
reasonable obligation that common carriers have under Title II and the rest of
the provisions; but that's not the only issue. The other problem is that,
unlike previous recommendations about how the FCC could deal with those issues,
it decided to go with black and white rules in this case. It clearly said, No blocking,
no throttling, and no paid prioritization. And the problem with this kind of
absolute treatment is that, yes, in many cases blocking, throttling, and paid
prioritization can be harmful; but at the same time, there are instances that
they may not. And in those cases, they should be allowed. And under this kind
of thinking, it would be preferable if the FCC had adopted a flexible rule that
would only ban unreasonable discrimination, which is the approach that it took
in the NPRM of 2014. So that's another way that the FCC kind of went a little
further than necessary. Let's say, like, in terms of percent, let's guess 80
percent of blocking, throttling, or paid prioritization could be harmful; but
there is a 20 percent that should be allowed. And it should have gone with a
rule that it would allow to let this 20 percent pass that would be good for the
industry and good for consumers and good for developers and service and
application providers; and then that rule would also allow it to ban the
remaining 80 percent that could be harmful for the industry. So that's another
way that it went a little further than it should have. It was also surprising
because, for the first time, the FCC has assumed authority over interconnection
agreements. Now, traditional interconnection on the Internet is not a data
interconnection, so Internet traffic interconnection is not regulated under the
assumption that the market for data interconnection is competitive and there is
no need to regulate it. And then we had this Comcast/Netflix dispute in
February 2014. I don't know if you remember the case, but Netflix complained
that Comcast is throttling its data. Typically speaking, it was not actually a
violation of Net Neutrality for some legalistic reasons. We don't have to go into
that. But because it generated so much publicity around it, the FCC decided to
say — it didn't have authority. Under the previous Net Neutrality rules, even
if they had not been invalidated, the FCC would not have authority to
scrutinize what happened with Comcast and Netflix. And it actually didn't. And
Chairman Wheeler came out in a public statement and said, This is not a Net
Neutrality issue. And the case closed there for the FCC. But because it became
so public it it kind of illustrated how important those interconnection issues
can become — meaning that you can get similar effect with throttling an
interconnection agreement instead of managing traffic inside your network,
which is something that the Net Neutrality rules would prohibit; whereas interconnection
agreements would not fall under the previous Net Neutrality rules. So you can
get similar effects and get away with it, in a way bypass Net Neutrality
protections. So for this reason, the FCC decided to assume authority over
certain interconnection agreements as well; and this really came out of
nowhere. I think, actually, going back to the question of Saurabh, now that I
think about it, I don't remember this issue being raised in 2014, whether it
should go and regulate interconnection agreements as well because they decided
to keep the scope of the new rules the same as the previous rules. So that's
another way that the FCC went a little further than it might have been
necessary to protect the industry against anticompetitive practices.
Sarah: So when you say interconnection agreements,
you're talking — that would cover peering agreements? Is that another term for
—
Konstantinos: That would cover — so this is one of the
things that we don't have details on from the FCC. Peering agreements among backbone
providers will probably not be the kind of agreements that are scrutinized by
the FCC. More like ISPs and backbone providers, or service providers. So a
direct interconnection agreement between Netflix and Comcast would fall under
the new rules. But a peering agreement between Comcast as a backbone provider
and Sprint as a backbone provider would probably not fall under the new rules
of the FCC. Although I'm saying this with caution because we don't have details
on that yet. I'm basing this on a tweeting session that Gigi Sohn from FCC held
a few weeks ago. And I think one of the issues that was raised was whether this
could cover CDN, content delivery networks, like Akamai or Netflix's own
content delivery network, with ISPs; and they said no because they don't
interface directly with consumers, or something like that. So I'm not exactly
sure which agreements will fall under the new authority of the FCC; but peering
agreements among backbone providers, for example, are likely to not be covered.
Sarah: Okay. Going back to your other comment about
the black and white rules, I guess the argument I always heard in favor of
those is that it provides certainty, and that kind of enables more stability in
the market. And then the other thing I guess I wanted to ask was, Do you think
any of those 20 percent of situations you mentioned, where throttling and those
things are reasonable, they would not be covered by the reasonable management
standard? Because that's part of the rules as well, right, that you can still
engage in reasonable network management. But you don't think that would capture
any of those situations?
Konstantinos: So the thing with reasonable network
management is that, as an exception — because that's how it's treated in the
rules — it's meant to be interpreted narrowly. And that means that it applies
only for technical reasons; so the justification for network management has to
be technical difficulties that the network faces that make aggressive network
management necessary. And it also applies only within the ISP's network. It
does not apply in the connection part between the service provider — say,
Facebook or Netflix — and the ISP. In that part of the connection, the previous
FCC rules and the exception for reasonable network management does not apply.
So we could see cases of discrimination of traffic, technically or
economically. An example of technical discrimination would be throttling; an
example of economic discrimination would be a zero rating agreement where
consumers don't pay to access a service, whereas they pay to access the rest of
the Internet, for example. So these cases could theoretically and potentially
be, under certain conditions, harmful if they distort competition, and at the
same time would not be covered under the reasonable network management
exception. In those cases, it could be useful for the FCC to have authority to
intervene. But these cases, if you ask me, fall in the 20 percent. And the FCC
is basically also assuming authority for the remaining 80 percent of the cases
that would, under most circumstances, be innocuous. So yes, black and white
rules do provide certainty; but that doesn't mean that they cannot be
disproportionate for the purpose they want to serve. So again, the FCC means
well. Their rules, where necessary, probably not in their current format.
Sarah: Gotcha.
Denise: Okay. Still trying to understand what all the
ramifications of them in their current format will be. Listener Jeff had
another good question — actually, two more good questions. One has to do with
whether anything in the new rules requires ISPs to open their infrastructure to
third parties. I haven't seen any discussion on this point; but, Konstantinos,
maybe you can shed further light. He's wondering whether this would be an
enhancement to competition for broadband services in areas that might be served
by only one or two carriers.
Konstantinos: Sure. It's actually a very reasonable question
because, in 1996 when the Telecommunications Act was passed, there were these
so-called un-bundling provisions, which required local exchange carriers —
which is like the last-mile carriers of telecommunications services — to open
up individual elements of their network to competitors so that others could
offer last-mile communication services. And these provisions, although they
still remain in written law, they have been struck down in a series of cases,
the last one in 2005. And so, at the moment, the United States does not have an
un-bundling regime. Although it is stated in the law, it's not applied. And so
the new FCC rules, even despite the reclassification to Title II
telecommunication services, will not affect the lack of un-bundling in the
industry. So the answer is a clear no; and the FCC has clearly stated that
there is not going to be any type of sharing obligations imposed by the new
rules. It's one of those provisions that the FCC will forebear from imposing.
Denise: All right. And then finally, Jeff asks about
the aspect of the FCC vote that relates to municipalities being able to set up their
own government-run, or government-sponsored, Internet access locally, which
some states had been trying to prevent. And he's wondering if that regulation
also prevents municipalities from granting local monopolies on becoming
high-speed ISPs using that municipal infrastructure. What do you think of that
one?
Konstantinos: So the Net Neutrality rules do not really
cover that particular topic. It was raised in February's meeting, but the rules
were voted — the first statement of Chairman Wheeler was that they will prevent
the states from prohibiting power companies, for example, to install their own
broadband Internet facilities. So the new rules do not say anything about that.
It's not regulated under Net Neutrality rules. But regardless, the problem remains
whether the FCC actually does have the authority to say something like this;
and some people say that the FCC does not have authority to preempt states from
imposing such a prohibition, and others say that federal law allows that. It's
an open question, and it will be decided on a case-by-case basis until,
probably, it reaches the Supreme Court and there is a more generalized response
onto that. So for now, what we have is that the FCC is orienting itself to
warrants preempting states from imposing such obligations; but this is not
something that has to do with Net Neutrality.
Denise: All right. Well, let's think about —
obviously, we have a lot more to understand about how the Net Neutrality rules
in the U.S. are going to work. But the U.S. is just one country that's been
struggling with Net Neutrality and their parameters. Netflix has come under
some fire this week because of their decision to partner with an ISP in
Australia to exempt Netflix traffic from something that the customers have to
pay additionally for. I am stating that in a more complicated way than it needs
to be stated, Konstantinos. Help me out here; tell me what happened.
Konstantinos: So essentially, many ISPs in Australia have a
data cap. They say that users can download up to, say, a hundred gigabytes per
month; and then, because that's a limitation, they exempt certain services from
that data cap. And Netflix signed an agreement that exempted its traffic from
the data cap. Now, what this means for other companies is that, whereas if you
watch, say, Hulu, for example — another popular online video service — you will
consume part of your allocated 100 gigabytes per month; whereas if you watch
Netflix, you will not. And that may mean that Netflix is in a better position
in terms of competition. Now, this is a form of discrimination; I don't think
that anyone would disagree on that. And this is something that, in the U.S.,
would probably not fly. But the difference is that' in the U.S., there are no
data caps; or if there are — I think Comcast, at some point, had a 250-gigabyte
data cap — if there are, they're so high that it's unlikely that users will
reach them. So it's as if they're not there. But in Australia, this is pretty
common. So Netflix came under attack because, even though it is a form of
discrimination and it could, theoretically, go against Net Neutrality — which
Netflix in the U.S. so fervently supported — then it goes to Australia and does
the opposite. The situation there is different. First of all, there are no
similar Net Neutrality rules; and second, the industry practices are very
different. And so if Netflix didn't do it, it would mean that it's in a
competitive disadvantage.
Denise: Right.
Konstantinos: So I understand why some people feel that it
was sort of a bit of a hypocrisy on Netflix's side to argue one case in the
U.S. and act in a different way in Australia; but the circumstances were
different, and this matters.
Denise: There's a good quote from a piece on this by
Peter Noack in [inaudible], where he sums it up by saying, "This is all
happening because Australia has no Net Neutrality rules. For its part, Netflix
can't be faulted entirely for trying to make veritable lemonade from the lemons
it has been handed." So his point is that, as we're discussing how Net
Neutrality is going to look in the United States, that Australia may need to
look at that as well if it wants to give its consumers similar kinds of
protection.
And then I guess we should close out this
discussion by looking elsewhere in the world to Net Neutrality issues. I know
that the Internet Constitution that you have been working on in Brazil — and
then you mentioned Chile as well — take into account Net Neutrality concerns,
too; right?
Konstantinos: Yes. This is correct. There are only a handful
of countries around the world that have adopted Net Neutrality rules; Chile and
Brazil are two of those in Latin America; Netherlands and Slovenia, in Europe,
also have Net Neutrality rules; and then there are some countries that have
very @ la carte protection. Telecom Authority in Canada very recently came out
with a decision banning zero rating, for example. And unlike in the U.S., where
the previous Net Neutrality rules — strict or not strict doesn't matter for
this point. They hadn't really been [inaudible] an opportunity to show their
teeth. Both in Brazil and in Chile, and in the Netherlands and Slovenia, Net
Neutrality rules have actually been applied in real cases. Most of those cases
had to do either with exemptions from data caps or cases of zero rating. So
this is an example of how these rules could play out in the U.S. And there is
an interesting case from back in 2011 that Net Neutrality opponents can point
to to say that Net Neutrality rules should not have been adopted in such a
strict form when the Netherlands decided to adopt those rules. KPN, which is
the biggest mobile telecom provider there, announced that it's going to raise
its prices. In the end, it didn't — or it only raised them in a way that was
justified by inflation — but it's an example of how companies threaten that Net
Neutrality rules will actually do more harm than good. And AT&T had done
the same in the U.S. by saying that they will freeze investments. But we
haven't really seen any signs of industry degradation once Net Neutrality rules
have been adopted in any of those countries; and it's hard to actually notice
generalized trends because the cases are very, very few. We have two cases in
Slovenia — zero rating again, and data caps; two cases in the Netherlands; and
two cases in Chile where they banned free access to Facebook and Wikipedia.
Again, a lot of people said, You know, maybe it's not a bad idea to have free
access to Wikipedia because let's not forget that maybe, yes, Facebook is a
for-profit corporation and it can harm competition to other social networks;
but I don't think that anyone would disagree that free access to Wikipedia is a
good thing, or free access to government services. All these under a
zero-rating regime, would be banned. The FCC has not come clear about that. I'm
not saying that they would be banned in the U.S. It's one of those details that
we are waiting to see how they were going to play out in the U.S. But I'm just
noting here that some of the cases of application of Net Neutrality rules
abroad have brought good results, and some cases have brought more
controversial results. So these are good examples for the U.S. to keep in mind
when — well, now the rules have been adopted, but when applying the rules. And
that is precisely where a flexible standard would help. You could allow certain
services to have a zero-rating agreement where others, where you think that
they would act anti-competitively, not.
Denise: Yes, I think those are excellent points. I
want to hear, too, before we leave the topic of Net Neutrality and
international law — although we will come back to that when we talk about the
right to be forgotten in a little bit. But we are going to do an ad here; and
when we come back, I'd like to hear a bit about the Internet Constitution in
Brazil because that seems like a very interesting experiment.
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of This Week in Law.
All right. Why does Brazil think that the
Internet needs a constitution?
Konstantinos: Well, it's a very grandiose name, to begin
with. It's partly explained by — how it all started, it was like — it has a
long history that goes, like, ten years back. It's one of those laws that have
been crafted part as a civil rights movement. It was crowd-sourced; there was
intense participation by the public. It was used as part of a political
campaign by President Dilma. So it's one of those laws that basically express
the public sentiment very, very strongly. It was also the first law that
attempted to comprehensively tackle the issues that it does, like Net
Neutrality, data protection, citizen participation in the information society,
and so on. And so this kind of a sentiment that gave rise to the movement
affected the rules that ended up being enshrined in the law. We also have to —
from the viewpoint of Net Neutrality, I do have to note that, unlike other
countries and in the U.S., that Net Neutrality is a regulatory issue, meaning
that the rules were voted by a regulatory agency. In Brazil, it was a law. And
this shows something about the political importance of the topic and a broader
representation that they wanted to achieve with creating a law and not simply a
regulation that would deal with those issues. Of course, the other way to
explain that is whether the regulatory authority here would be capable or
willing to come up with a law. There's a lot of skepticism about how
independent, or how competent, Anatel — the telecom authority — is here; so in
a certain way, a law might have been more necessary in Brazil rather than in
other countries.
Denise: All right. So the status of it — is it still
being developed? You've been working on it there in Rio. Anything in the future
we should look for as to the Internet Constitution?
Konstantinos: Absolutely. So the law has been passed in
April 2014; however, many of the details of the law remain open. And they were
expected to be filled in by the executing law, which is what is now being
contemplated in Congress here. And there is an open consultation process, and the
center that I work at has been actively involved in that process. So a lot of
the details about, for example, what reasonable network management is, or about
what kind of personal data should be protected in the relevant provisions of
the law. All these issues remain open and up for grabs, and that's why they
have this ongoing consultation. So we expect that, by the end of the year,
there's going to be the executing law; and it is going to be quite important
because, as EFF has noted, the devil does hide in the details. And a lot of the
issues in Marco Civil have been dealt in a way that tried to find a compromise
between extreme sides. The participation and voice of the civil society was
incredibly strong, and the participation of companies — again, I think they
were taken aback; but, like, the very last moment, they managed to insert some
provisions in the law. So some of the provisions seem kind of sloppy, and this
is where the executing law has to come in and do a good job. And it would
define, to a very large extent, what the actual content of the rules say. But
it's a very interesting piece of legislation. It's quite important, both for
its scope and for the process that led up to it. And Brazil being the biggest
and most important country in Latin America, it kind of sets the tone for other
countries to follow. So I mean, let's not forget that, when the bill was
signed, it was signed in a very celebratory environment in Net Mundial last
April, which was the world Internet governance forum hosted here; and President
Dilma attended, and she presented the Marco Civil as the most progressive bill
of rights internationally. So it's an interesting piece of legislation. It does
have a lot of problems; but again, much like the rules by FCC, it means well.
Denise: (Laughs) Yes. And we'd love to have you come
back at some point in a few months —
Konstantinos: Sure. My pleasure.
Denise: — and let us know what's going on with it and
how it is faring.
Konstantinos: I will certainly keep you updated on the
developments.
Denise: Good. All right. I think we're going to shift
gears and look at some items on the patent front.
(The intro plays.)
Denise: Saurabh, you've been doing some really
interesting research and work —
Saurabh: (Laughs)
Denise: You like our little bumper there? (Laughs)
Things going up in flames. Well, one thing that goes up in flames from time to
time with patents is the patents themselves, not because they're declared
invalid — although certainly people fight back and forth on that front every
single day. But patents have a much shorter life than copyrights in the world
of intellectual property; and they actually do expire. And so you get works in
the public domain that used to be under patent, and we never really explored
that too thoroughly on the show. You've written and researched quite a bit
about it, Saurabh; and I'm interested in getting the results and your
impressions of what happens when patents expire. I know that you have done a
survey of what sort of patents, what sort of devices, are available in the
public domain for people to use; so tell us a bit about that, and also tell us
if it leads to problems once something's in the public domain, was subject to
patent once upon a time and has fallen out of patent — do people sometimes try
and re-patent formerly patented ideas?
Saurabh: Sure. So to unpack that a little bit, the
study that you cited of mine looks at a five-year window — 2008 to 2012 — and
it's actually just the full universe of cases in which a patent that used to be
under protection expired. And the reason it expired was not because it was
litigated and was found to be invalid, not because it was sort of brought
before the Patent and Trademark Office and was challenged as to its validity
and the PTO said, Yes, you're right — this is invalid, and we should not have
granted this. But really just a very pedestrian reason, which is that the
maintenance fees that patent owners have to pay periodically every four years
were not paid. And for that reason, they simply lapsed quietly into the public
domain, and now anybody can use them, right? So the fees themselves, by
comparison to the very large numbers — millions and tens of millions of dollars
— that litigation is often associated with in patents, the fees themselves to
keep patents enforced are pretty modest. They range in the sort of 1,600-
2,000-dollar range; and you have to pay them four years, eight years, and
twelve years from the date of issuance. Now, an invention that was once
valuable enough to get a patent on, and later on somebody decided, No, this
isn't even worth $2,000 to keep it in force for another four years in which we
could do any number of things with it, that tells us something interesting. And
that was really the motivation for this research, something else probably took
precedence. We thought, Okay. We're going to patent these ten things. Nine of
them turned out, in retrospect, not to be very valuable; one of them maybe did.
And so that's the one we're going to renew and maintain. The other nine, we'll
just let fall to the wayside. And the interesting thing is, that's what's
supposed to happen, right? When you get a patent, what you're really getting is
a claim on further development in the economic and commercial spheres. And when
somebody decides, Okay. This isn't worth our time anymore; we're going to focus
on something else, then we let it slip into the public domain, as we should.
And then, somebody can take that knowledge and build on it in their own ways.
So if we look at the patents that expired during that time period, and look at
the patents that were newly granted in that same period, and compare them — in
terms of how valuable we think they might be, in terms of what technologies
were more important than others, in terms of what kinds of inventors and what
countries these inventors were coming from — that tells about how the balance
of innovation is shifting in — not realtime, but something pretty close to it.
And so what we find is that technologies like biotech and pharmaceuticals —
these are the patents that live the longest before they die. They tend to, at
the median, live for about eight to nine years and sort of fall into the public
domain at that point. Computers and communications patents — what are sort of
colloquially referred to as software patents — those tend to expire much more
quickly. And that's maybe not surprising because product lifecycles in software
are much shorter, right? So after eighteen months, two years, three years, the
patent really doesn't get you that much more competitive advantage in the
market anyway, so it's better to just let it expire and then move on to other
things. So that's what the study finds. Now, to your question about, are people
going to try and take this stuff and re-patent it, well, in theory that's not
supposed to happen because the Patent and Trademark Office, when you file an
application, will review all the prior patents that are out there, all the
non-patent literature and trade journals and things, and say, Okay. This really
is a new contribution to the state of the art. And if they find something in
the prior art, as it's called, that describes the invention — or in light of
which the invention would be obvious, they'll tell the inventor, Look. This is
already out there. You can't patent it as you've currently claimed it. If you
want the patent, you have to narrow what you're claiming to sort of take
account of all the prior knowledge that's already out there. So in theory, that
shouldn't happen. Obviously, search costs are a practical concern for the
patent office, and the quality and the amount of time that patent examiners are
given, as a practical matter, is also another constraint on the ability of the
patent examination process to sort of fully take account of all the prior art
that's out there. And there's a lot of economic literature that has looked at
this and is currently looking at this. So in theory, I think, it's not supposed
to happen. Does it happen? Sure. And something else to keep in mind is that
something that would have been obvious or would have been anticipated by the
prior art ten years ago, maybe isn't today and vice versa because the law
changes, right? The Supreme Court has become much more active in sort of
addressing what the standards of patentability should be over the last 10 or 15
years; and so, as a result of that, the legal landscape has just changed under
our feet, and what used to be patented and patentable no longer is. And so
that's not something that the administrative system can really do much about at
all because it's more a question of the predictability of the legal system in
which we operate more broadly.
Denise: Right. We've had a flurry of recent Supreme
Court cases on the patent front, and one that's on the docket right now that
could be very interesting that doesn't seem to deal with patentability so much
as infringement. Can you tell us a bit about the Commil — if I'm saying that
right — v. Cisco case?
Saurabh: Sure. So you're right that it deals much more
with the litigation end than it does with the patent quality and patent
examination end of things. The issue in Commil is basically that Commil owned a patent — and still owns
it — and the patent was on short-range wireless communications. They sued
Cisco, and the two theories on which they sued Cisco — one is what's called
direct infringement, where they're saying, Cisco, you practiced our patent; and
for that, you should be penalized because you did it without our permission,
and so we want money and we want you to stop doing it — damages and
injunctions. The other theory on which they sued Cisco was what's called
induced infringement. This is where Commil is saying, Not only did you practice
our patent — and in fact, even aside from that — you induced others to commit
infringement. Other people who use wireless routers without our permission are
violating the patent infringement statute which says you can't make, sell, or
use a patented invention without permission. And so these people who are using
the router without our permission are infringing; and you contributed to that.
You induced them to do so. And so the question in the Commil v. Cisco case, as
it is in the Supreme Court, is what the standard of inducement liability should
be. And inducement is sort of one of these things that's hard to wrap your head
around because you're contributing to somebody else's wrongs; and so
intuitively, we understand that that's a bad thing and it should be
discouraged. But how do you know that the actions that you're taking today are
or aren't going to induce somebody to do something illegal in the future,
right? So inducement has always been the sort of dicey doctrine. And it's not
just limited to patent law; it comes from copyright, it comes in any number of
tort and criminal areas. Are you aiding and abetting an action that leads to a
crime? Well, what if you didn't know it was going to lead to a crime? So this
is something that the law deals with very broadly, and it's a difficult issue
to deal with. In inducement, the way we sort of try to deal with it is by
saying, If you knew that the action that you are inducing will infringe, then
you're liable. If you didn't know that — if all you knew is that you were
inducing some action, but you had no reason or no basis for thinking that that
action was wrong — then you are not liable for inducement. All you're doing is
inducing an action. You don't know that you're inducing a wrongful action. So
you have to know that a patent is going to be infringed in order to be on the
hook, as Cisco is on the hook — or will be if it comes down in favor of Commil.
The question in particular is, Do you have to know a patent is valid in order
to believe that it's going to be infringed? Because in this case, Cisco said,
Look. We knew about the patent, but we didn't think it was infringed because we
didn't think —
Denise: Or that it was valid, right?
Saurabh: Well, no. They're saying, We didn't think it
could be infringed because we didn't think it was valid.
Denise: Right.
Saurabh: Now, it turned out that it was valid. The court
found that the patent that Commil holds is valid, and so Cisco's on the hook
for direct infringement regardless. The question is, even if they had a good
faith belief that the patent was invalid and that good faith belief turned out
to be wrong, should they still be penalized even though they had this good
faith belief that turned out to be wrong? So I will say, in the interest of
full disclosure, that I've filed an Amicus brief in the Supreme Court on this
issue in favor of Cisco's position. I think that it conceptually just is
impossible to infringe an invalid patent, and there are a number of reasons for
that. But the main one is, in the statute, it says, "Whoever, without
authorization, makes, uses or sells the invention is liable." So if the
patent turns out to be invalid, you can't infringe; and so if what you need to
do is believe that it's being infringed, you first have to believe that the
patent is valid. And here, Cisco did not believe it was valid.
Denise: Right. Isn't that kind of a sad statement on
the patent system, though, that you could have such a good faith belief that a
duly issued patent would be invalid? Isn't that just one of the problems at the
core of the system?
Saurabh: Well, so there's a fair amount of research
that's been done on this, and it's this idea that patents are really nothing
more than a probabilistic right. What the patent office issues is a piece of
paper that's going to turn out to be either valid or invalid.
Denise: (Laughs)
Saurabh: There is a statutory presumption of validity,
right? The law says, "Patents shall be presumed valid." They have to
be proven invalid in court; but short of that, we're going to presume them
valid. I think Kommel makes a
good point here, that says, ‘Look, If we allow good faith beliefs of validity
to be a defense, then we’re going to just encourage people to hire lawyers who
say, ‘Yes. I hereby opine that this patent is invalid. There’s your good faith
belief. Now go forth and do what you like.’
I think those concerns are trumped, ultimately, by the
idea that we need that sort of trial clarity and that you do need to first believe
that a patent is valid at all in order to infringe it. If you believe that it’s
valid and that you still don’t infringe it, design around it. That’s good
evidence that you thought it was not infringed.
Ultimately, though, if you believe that the patent is
valid and that you don’t infringe it, you’re going to design around it. You’re
going to have to accommodate the patent, one way or the other. If you believe
that the patent is invalid, for this rule to come down in favor of Kommel, the
public is going to say, ‘Okay, we believe this patent is invalid, but we still
have to accommodate it.’ That’s a nonsensical position, in my opinion. And
that’s why I ultimately come down in favor of Cisco in this case. But I think
there are some substantive arguments on Kommel’s side. The solicitor generals
filed a brief in that case in support of Kommel’s position and I think they
raise important points that the court is going to have to address.
Denise: Yep. This will be a thorny one for the court to make
it through. I guess that’s how you get to the Supreme Court, is that you have
these important and complicated issues. Sarah, there’s a copyrights aspect to
this patent issue that public knowledge has weighed in on and filed in a
---brief, and that is, as public knowledge reminds people in its write-up of
the case-that back in 2005 when the Grokster case came out from the Supreme
Court that—MGM versus Grokster—it also involved inducing infringement. But it
involved inducing infringement of a copyright. And because the court there
imported an inducement standard from Patent Law, public knowledge is quite
anxious that the court now not decide, ‘Oh well, we don’t really have an intent
requirement under Patent Law, and so if we’re going to import these things back
and forth, the intent requirement goes out the window. If it goes out for
patent, it also goes out for copyright. Do you have a take on that? 1:02:33
Saurahb: So, I think that public knowledge as concern is well
founded. I think that the extent to which they think it’s a problem as a
practical matter may be overblown. So, first of all, in Grokster, what the importation
from Patent Law was, was to say, ‘Look, if you do something—if you provide a
service or a platform or a component (right?) that can be used for infringing
activities—what we then need to ask is, ‘Could it also be used for something
non-infringing?’ If there’s a substantial non-infringing purpose—and that idea
of substantial non-infringing purpose is something that you find in many areas
of patent law, as well as copyright law—then you’re much less likely to be
inducing the sort of wrongful conduct we’re really worried about. Whereas, the
thing you provide—the contribution you make, or the component you furnish—is
really only good for one thing, and that one thing does infringe…Then, even if
you didn’t have the subjective intent to infringe, then it’s reasonable for us
to say [that] this is clearly contributing, because that’s the only thing it’s
good for. So, that’s the idea of contributing to infringement, or inducing
infringement in the Copyright sense and in the Patent sense.
Now, it’s worth noting in the patent case, “contributory
infringement” and “induced infringement” are separate doctrines. They do track
each other, but the patent case and the copyright case are different, I think,
for three reasons that make public knowledge’s concern—I think—less dramatic
than might first meet the eye. One is that Copyright Law recognizes a defense
of independent creation. If you write
a song and copyright it, and I sitting in my studio soundproof walls and
everything, happen to come up with the same song, and I can demonstrate that,
then I have independent authored something—fixative tangible meaning of
expression, and I’m not infringing on your copyright. That can be hard to prove
as a practical matter, but copyright law does recognize that matter of
independent creation.
Patent Law doesn’t. Patent Law says, ‘You may have
originated this in the sense that you didn’t copy anybody, but this was out
there in the world. And the fact that you are the second comer means that you
are still infringing. As long as the patent’s enforced, we’re not going to
recognize an independent creation defense.’ So, the concern about the ability of people to get tripped up by
rights of which they are unaware is simply less problematic, in that respect,
in Copyright Law. There’s a safety valve in this independent creation defense.
The second thing is that Copyright has a very
well-developed—although there’s some debate about how effective it is—idea of fair use, right? You can infringe, but
the uses for which you infringed are such that we will allow it. Journalistic
uses are an excellent example of this. Educational uses are a good example of
this. So, there are reasons for which, even though it’s infringement of the
copyright, we’re going to allow it as a society. The closest thing Patent Law
ever had to that was a research exemption. You could take a technology and use
it for non-commercial academic purposes. Right? Academic research. That was
always sort of thin to begin with. And in a case called Madey v. Duke University, about ten years ago it was pretty much put
to bed, and there’s no real fair use analog in patent law, as there is in copyright law.
So, again, there is an analog—a safety valve—for
getting people off the hook in copyright side that patents don’t have. So, and
the third thing—the cost of actually infringing—the cost of copying things,
especially in the digital age, is much lower for Copyright than it used to be.
Whereas; the sort of fixed cost of getting a new operation up and running,
which is often necessary to do things that will infringe a patent, are very
different. Copyright: much cheaper, much lower cost. Patent: much higher cost.
And so, these differences mean that the practical effects of the inducement doctrine—they look really
different in the copyright case than they do in the patent case. And so, I
think—patent does take a lot from copyright, and vice versa, at the high level
at which the Supreme Court operates. But at the end of the day, I think that
even though the Supreme Court in Grokster took from Patent Law, how far they go
next and how much they change the intent doctrine, is probably something on
which they’re looking much more at the statutory text. They’ll be much more
sensitive to the practical realities of the industries of publishing and music
and film, as opposed to the different industries in which the patent rights are
more important. 1:07:45 I think the Supreme Court will be much more sensitive
to those things, and will tread much more cautiously.
Denise: Yeah.
Saurahb: So I think public knowledge is right to sound the
caution on it. I think, happily for them…I think the problem is not as big as
----. 1:08:03
Denise: I hope you’re correct. Sarah, do you agree that we
need to keep the intent to induce
infringement aspect in copyright law, and that there’s a concern if it’s
removed from patent law?
Sarah: I definitely agree that we need to keep the intent
requirement. This is the first that this case had come on my radar through the
public knowledge piece. But I actually took the time to read Public Knowledge’s
brief, and also some of the Kommel brief. And I just came away kind of thinking
[that] it seems to me like a no-brainer. That I can’t imagine how you can have
the requisite intent if you honestly believe that the patent was invalid. So,
just knowing that—whether or not public knowledge is right that this really is
a huge threat for copyright—I mean, the blog post was definitely written in a
dramatic way and probably potentially a little bit overblown, but I also think
that they’re making valid points about the influence of patent law in the
Grokster case and certainly that keeping the purposeful requirement in
copyright law, and in patent, makes sense. It’s a good check on secondary liability.
Denise: Right. Okay, we’re going to make GROKSTER our second
MCLE pass phrase for the show, and we’re going to take our second sponsor break
here to talk about Blue Apron. I’ve been busy here cooking up some Blue Apron
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always feel like I’m kind of messing around a little bit in the kitchen.
Despite the fact that I should be an excellent chef, given my genetics—both my
mother and my father are excellent chefs in their own rites—I’ve always sort of
struggled in that regard. I like to try, but I always feel like I’m trying, and
things go awry somewhere. There’s some technique that I just never got down.
Solid in the beginning, that sort of just trips me up on some dish that I’m
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Well, Blue Apron just takes all that guess work out of
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I made something called Crispy Chicken Thighs with Braised Lettuce, kimchi and
Maitake mushrooms. And this is actually a recipe they took form someone who was
on Top Chef. Her name is Mei Lin. And they do this as Guest Chef Series, where
they don’t just come up with the recipes on their own. This is one of her
recipes, and in fact it won one of the—I forget it was an episode or a
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one was a huge hit in our family this week.
And then, I also want to show you—I mentioned over the
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one of the things I was doing was giving my clients from my law practice—this
was my holiday gift to them—was three Blue Apron meals for them to try out for
themselves to say, ‘Thank you for giving me business.’ And so one of my clients
actually made something this week, as well, and sent me the picture. He made—oh
gosh, I’m going to say this wrong—za’atar-spiced steaks. Again, ingredients
that you might not just pick off the shelf yourself. With rutabaga-barberry tabouli
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close to what happened on their recipe card. And so, he really enjoyed what he
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So you, too, can be cooking incredible meals like this,
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That’s right--two meals free just by going to <blueapron.com/twit>. Thank you so much, Blue Apron, for the
delicious meals, and your support of This Week in Law.
Saurahb: You’re making me hungry, there.
Denise: Yes, I know. It’s definitely a great way to be
cooking up some yummy lunch or dinner. I want to quickly go through some
privacy stories and begin to wrap up the show. So, let’s talk about some things
on the privacy front.
You know, I stuck this under “privacy” but it’s really
more of a security story and a judgment story. But much in the news this week
has been the news of Hillary Clinton’s use of her own private e-mail server
while she was Secretary of State that she actually never had a State Department
address that used for her day-to-day e-mails as she was performing her duties
as Secretary of State. I’ve seen people go sort of back and forth on this, on
both sort of the wisdom and judgment front and the legality front, so I just
wanted to toss it out to you all to see if you had any thoughts about highly
ranking government officials deciding, ‘Well, at least here, unlike some other
folks like Mitt Romney and Sara Palin, at least Hillary had her own server.’
Right? She wasn’t using Yahoo! Mail. She wasn’t using Gmail or another private
service out there. Does that make a difference, Sarah, do you think?
Sarah: I mean, that makes a difference from the perspective
of whether they’re secure. It doesn’t make a difference from the transparency
perspective. And that’s the angle, to me, that’s incredibly depressing about
this. From what I’ve read, it’s not clear at all that she violated a law.
There’s a new law in place that would be prohibiting this sort of thing, but it
wasn’t there when she was Secretary of State. But certainly it’s sketchy to
know that she was using this private e-mail account. It sounds like she opened the
account as she was sworn in. This was intentional, and it’s really hard not to
be suspicious of her motives in terms of open government and transparency. It
seems like the opposite to me.
Denise: All right. Any thoughts, Konstantinos?
Konstantinos: For one thing, I am just wondering why did this whole
thing actually happen? Why did she need her own server? I don’t see a very good
reason behind it. But as a security issue I’m guessing to the extent that they
abided by very, very strict protocols on this. I don’t see why it was blown so
much out of proportion.
Denise: Right
Konstantinos: So If I’m not mistaken, the problem is [that] they
don’t have access to the e-mails now—even those she asked them to release
them—so I’m not sure, actually, if the same policies about retention apply. In
which case, this could be a transparency issue. Not so much a security issue as
a transparency issue, so I guess I’m siding on this with Sarah.
Denise: Yeah. I mean, I suppose if you were a highly-ranking
government official, and fairly technologically-savvy (or at least capable of
hiring people who were), you could set up a server that would comply with the
various transparency requirements and the record retention requirements, and
maybe feel pretty good about your control over that data. But I’ve got to
think. It just smacks me as something… Although I was always a person, when
with working with big organizations, to try and have my own e-mail access to
things, just because it was more convenient. But it does seem like she’s “going
rogue” here, to borrow from Sarah Palin. What do you think, Saurahb?
Saurabh: So, I think the points about transparency certainly
are well-taken. I’m not sure, in terms of security. I mean, there’s physical
security, and because it was in the Clintons’ home in New York, which was…there
was Secret Service protection, and all these things… Physical security was
probably about as good as it could have been, under the circumstances. But—and
I don’t know the details about the way in which the server was set up—but if
there wasn’t off-site backup protocols, if there weren’t those protocols in
place, if there weren’t redundancies built in, and if there weren’t necessarily,
the level of counter-measures against hacking that there would be in a government
system, then I’m not sure security was up-to-snuff, either, and that’s
something we may not know. But in terms of access to information—right—if it
were a federal server, then the Freedom of Information Act attorneys that each
Executive Department and agency has, would basically just go in and say, ‘We
think it’s responsive to whatever Foyer request we’ve gotten, so we’re just
going to go in and collect the information ourselves.’
If it’s a private server, there’s a layer of separation
between the Foya attorneys, who are involved in the process, and Secretary
Clinton’s own attorneys, who are sort of running interference between her and
whatever requests are coming. It’s not going to be a presumption in favor of
delivering Foyer-responsive documents. It’s going to be a presumption against
that. And the attorneys for Miss Clinton are going to have to step up and say,
‘Yes, we think this is worth turning over.’ They’re at least going to have a
crack at making those arguments before the documents are released. So, that’s
really the transparency concern.
Denise: Yup. All right, Konstantinos, I promised earlier in
the show we would bring up the right to be forgotten. I wonder if this is
something that you’ve been paying attention to, with your focus on more international
studies and implementations of law. The article that we have in our run-down
for today—and you can access this article and everything else we’ve been going
to today by going to <delicious.com/thisweekinlaw/295>--everything we’ve
been referring to, as a link. This piece in Slate is highlighting how there is
a discrepancy between implementation of how Google is--How do I put this? I
already said “implement,” so that’s not the word that I want. But, there’s a
difference between D-listing something on a country’s local search results and
D-listing something globally. And Google had been struggling with that in
responding to the hundreds of thousands of requests that it’s gotten in the EU
that have people have asked for information about them to be taken out of
Google Search listings. Do you have any take on this, Konstantinos—the global
versus local issue?
Konstantinos: Can I just first say that I think Europe is hated
about the right to be forgotten, or seen as a hero, depending on what side you
see yourself on. It’s one of those cases that I think that European
courts—European Union courts, in particular, have been activists in trying to
show some sort of European sovereignty, because there is an ongoing complaint
that Europe is being overtaken by American companies. And we can see that in
____ (1:21:12), we can see that in privacy, we can see that in net neutrality.
Europe takes pride in the stricter protections that it has in place for its
citizens. And I guess that the right to be forgotten came out from this
tradition that Europe is more protective of human rights and citizens’ rights.
But at the same time I’m not quite sure that it was a well-developed
doctrine—The Right to be Forgotten—and the kind of implementation issues that
your raised show that maybe it was a bit premature to have a court decide how a
business practice like Shoulda would
flow. (1:22:00). Now the difficulty with implementation is obviously that
Google de-lists the results from the country that has been requested from, if
there is a local Google version. But, obviously, you can route around it if you
visit another Google site. And I think that’s fair, because the Right to be
Forgotten has to be understood somehow as a topical issue, right? I mean, it
has to affect the person in the community that this person belongs, and in the
community that is in a bidirectional relation with this person. So you can’t really
asked that something that has happened and that is online be removed from every
searchable list because on the Internet that would practically mean that it
disappears from the Internet. If you cannot find something through search
engines, it may very well be there, but if search engines don’t return relevant
results it may be the same thing as not having it hosted anywhere.
So, you know, sometimes you’re watching TV and the
remote is in the armchair on the couch next to the one that you’re on, and
you’re like, ‘Well, it may as well be in China. I’m not going to get up and
pick it up.’
Denise: [laughing]
Saurahb: So, it doesn’t really matter that it’s there. What
matters is the sort of transactional costs to get to it are so high, that would
mean that it’s almost equal to completely removing it from the Internet. And
that would be, undeniably, a violation of freedom of expression. So, I would
side with Google on this and I am sympathetic to the European Court of Justice and
to the people who want some results de-listed. But at the same time, I do think
the Principle of Proportionality that lawyers so much love is very, very
important here. De-listing it from local countries under the strict conditions
that the court and Google have worked together to find—and Bing—I don’t know if
Yahoo! is part of it, but Bing is certainly part of if—I think it’s a fair
compromise. Asking to be removed from every index globally, that would be too
much. Disproportionate. Eventually it might even be ineffective. But this is a
discussion that we should be going through. I think that for the regional
purposes that this right was constructed, it has served its purpose.
Denise: All right. Well, again, this is something to continue
to watch as Google and EU go back and forth about it. And again, more in our
discussion points if you want to look further how Google is implementing its
response to the EU’s directives.
We have a Tip of the Week for you, and it’s sort of an
esoteric one, but it’s an important one, I think. It comes to us at the
prompting of listener “Caleb,” who wrote to me about armchair lawyering and how he frequently is confronted by people
who, either on T.V., or in print, or online, are purporting to tell him what
the law is on things, or how the law works. And he’s rightly skeptical, and he
oftentimes thinks that they’re full of hot air, and either they don’t know what
they’re talking about, or there might be more to the story. And I think that
his point pretty much encapsulates why we do this show every week—why it’s such
a long show, why we have such wonderful, esteemed scholars come on our show
such as our guests today—because the law is a complicated beast. And I found a
great article. The tip, by the way, is “Every Telling is Interpretive.” And
that’s a quote from Anthropologist Edward Bruner, as featured in a Law Review
article by Paul Schiff Berman. And the article is called “Telling a Less
Suspicious Story: Notes Toward a Non-Skeptical Approach to Legal/Cultural
Analysis.” It’s sort of a mouthful, but the whole point of the article is that
everyone brings their own baggage to the table when talking about the law, explaining
the law… Whether it’s their own opinion about how they think the world is, or
their own opinion about how they think the world should be, you’re always
getting a slightly skewed perspective when you’re listening to folks like us
each week talk about the law and the way that it works.
So listener “Caleb” wants you to be cautious and
skeptical. So do I. “Every telling is interpretive,” as says Anthropologist
Edward Bruner. Read the article if you really like some more detail on that, on
how the law is a difficult beast to nail down and make behave in a
black-and-white way. And I think it’s just a fascinating topic. And yes, it’s
very good advice and a good Tip of the Week.
And then we have a cup… [Talking to Konstantinos] Go
ahead. Thoughts on that? Yes.
Konstantinos: Denise, if I may have one minute?
Denise: Yes.
Konstantinos: I’m reading in the chapter that a lot of people have
raised the issue of extra-territorial application of laws.
Denise: Mmm-hmm.
Konstantinos: Extraterritoriality is a well-defined concept in
international law. I wouldn’t be quick to say that—legally speaking—this is a
problem of extraterritoriality, because what people are asking is that results
are not received in a certain country. Now, Google can find whatever way it wants,
technically, to make those results unavailable. And that doesn’t mean that the
rule applies in other countries. It means the law doesn’t care about what
technical ways Google will find to block those results in a particular country.
Now the reason this is not happening is because you can go to <Google.com>
in the US, but if you are in Germany you can go to <Google.de>. And if <Google.de> blocks certain
results, but <Google.com> does not, this is a bypass mechanism.
Denise: Right.
Konstantinos: And the European Union is not asking for Google in the
US to remove listings, or anything like that. All it asks for is that in
Germany those results are being blocked, and let Google decide how to do that.
And so, I wouldn’t say that it’s an extraterritorial effect. Besides, these kinds of
effects that bleed out of a certain jurisdiction are common on the Internet.
Denise: Mmm-hmm.
Konstantinos: We see that in defamation cases. We see that in
privacy cases. And many countries, including the European Union, and Brazil
with Internet constitution—they impose obligations to companies doing business,
offering business in their respective jurisdictions, to respect their own local
privacy laws—even when they are not headquartered in those states. Now, what that
means is that we don’t ask European law to be imposed in the US, or Brazilian
law in the US. What we are asking is for them to find a way to comply with US,
or with EU or Brazilian, for example, rules, when they offer services in that
jurisdiction. Now because of the fact that traffic flows internationally on the
Internet, this becomes very difficult. But legally speaking, this is not an
extraterritoriality issue…
Denise: Right.
Konstantinos: unless the people are using it as a common
vocabulary.
Denise: Right, right. In that spanning multiple territories.
Konstantinos: So sorry for running over my time, but one of the
issues that came up…
Denise: Oh, no.
Konstantinos: in the chat room and I thought I would address that.
Denise: It’s an excellent point. And one of the quotes that
jumped out at me from this Slate article about this issue—it’s by Julia
Powells—she wonders why Google concedes to implementing copyright requests at a
level exceeding privacy requests by three orders of magnitude, in her
estimation. So again, it’s sort of a code is law problem—how you implement it
ends up dictating where the remote is, you know—if it’s actually going to work
for you, or not. And I get what you’re saying. I think that’s an excellent point,
Konstantinos.
Konstantinos: Mmm-hmm.
Denise: I do want to leave our listeners with a few Resources
of the Week. One is on the copyright front. It comes from listener Ben Cotton,
who actually put together a license that he did to solve a problem that he
confronted. He came up with it a few weeks ago. So, as someone had posted to a
licensed discussion mailing list about the problem he had with the BSD license
in China. The judge didn’t know enough English to understand the license, and
ruled against someone who brought an infringement suit. So what Ben did was try
and simplify—he did it as a weekend project—to attempt a version of the license
that used only the words on the Oxford 3000 list, and he’s calling it the
Permissive 3000 License. It’s on GitHub. We have a link to it. You can find it
in our discussion points at <delicious.com/thisweekinlaw/295>. Ben
thought his fellow TWIL listeners might find it interesting. And it also
highlights, in his opinion, the difficulties of using licenses across languages
and jurisdictions. So, [a] great resource if you want to check it out. See how
you think Ben did on the Permissive 3000 License.
And then, one final resource for you is—Mitch
Tannenbaum wrote in as a result of our SuperFish Lenovo discussion last week,
and thinks this is a much broader problem than just Lenovo and the vendors in
question in that dispute, and the litigation that is going to ensue from that.
He thinks it’s a big risk assessment problem, and supply chain problem, and it
calls out how it’s very unusual for a developer to do a full-scale cyber risk
assessment on each and every third-party software component that they license,
and that that’s really something that they should be doing if they don’t want
to wind up in a pot of boiling hot super fish…like Lenovo [quietly remarks].
Oops, sorry.
So, those are our Resources. It seems like some people
had some final thoughts that they might want to make before we close out the
show. So, Saurahb, was that you that wanted to chime in a moment ago?
Sara: [chuckles]
Saurahb: So, yes. I think Konstantinos’s point about the Right
to be Forgotten and the “extraterritorial”—I use air quotes for that—the sort
of “extraterritorial” nature of it, are well-taken. And it’s worth noting that
it’s not really the Right to be Forgotten that we’re talking about. The Right
to be Forgotten by people, but rather, by history. And others have made this
point in print. My friend Eric Goldman is a professor at Santa Clara that wrote
about this on his blog. It’s a desire to go back to a time when we could take
comfort that [with] whatever we did, peoples’ natural attention span and memory
would just push us out and make room for something new. And if something was
really historically bad enough, then someone would dig up the New York Times article in a microfiche
somewhere, or we’d wind up in the Encyclopedia Brittanica under “Bonehead”.
So, what Google Indexing has done is really just lowered
the transaction cost for remembering as a public matter, and it has, as a
result of that, lowered the bar for what’s publicly remembered in practice. And
if you look at is as to say that there should be no Right to be Forgotten
because this is the same principle that we’ve always had, you could always go
to a library in Stone Mountain, Georgia and dig up the news article from 1985,
proving this or that. Well then, okay, that somewhat downplays the newness and
the power of the Internet. The other way is to say that the Internet is
something altogether new, altogether new rules. And it’s not just a difference
of degree. In that case, maybe the Right to be Forgotten isn’t the worst idea.
I personally tend to view search engine indexing as an extension of historical
precedent. We have this in libraries. We have this with microfilm and
microfiche. And so, although I’m somewhat sympathetic to the idea of having a
Right to be Forgotten, I think the principle behind it is somewhat weak, and I
think Google’s approach to this is one that is ultimately driven by technology
as it should be.
Denise: All right. Sarah, any final thoughts to close out the
show?
Sarah: No. I was…Well, I guess the one thing I was going to
mention, the exciting thing, is the Creative Commons icon and logo are in the
MOMA.
Denise: Oh, very fun.
Saurahb: Nice.
Sarah: I just happened sometime recently. There’s an exhibit
going on that’s about design experience. It’s called This is for Everyone: Design Experiments for the Public Good. And
then I think the MOMA is going to retain the logos and icons for its permanent
collection, as well. So that’s sort of an exciting Creative Commons news.
Denise: Oh, I love it. Thank you for sharing that with us.
Konstantinos, anything you’d like to share before we go ahead and sign off?
Konstantinos: No. I think that I abused my time. I just want to
mention one last thing that I’m very sympathetic to—What Saurahb said—but I
don’t think cold-blooded lawyers are open to the sensitivities like the desire
of people to forget their past. This is not something that would stand in court
although I like it as an argument a lot.
Denise: All right. And this is an ongoing conversation, as
are so many of our topics here in This Week in Law are. Again, “Every telling
is interpretive.” And none of these issues are easy or straightforward, and
that’s why the EU does things differently than we do in the US, and in the US
we do them differently than they do elsewhere in the world. And all of us are
struggling with how to come to terms with these very important issues in the
digital age. So, we’ll continue doing so every week on the show at 11:00
Pacific Time, 1800 ETC, starting this weekend when we switch back to Daylight
Savings Time here in the United States—or in the Western United States—at any
rate. So, please join us live if you can at that time if you can. If you can’t,
never fear. The show is on-demand in many, many formats. Go to
<twit.tv/twil> to learn all about the various ways that you can watch the
show on your own time and on your own device of choosing.
What else? You should get in touch with us between the
shows. I’m Denise@twit.tv. Sarah is sarahp@twit.tv. Look us up, send us e-mails,
start a discussion on the Right to be Forgotten or anything else that you think
is critical and important and warrants having folks try and flesh it out and
come to terms with all of the policy ramifications of various technological
decisions because that’s what we grapple with here on this show every week. And
we’re looking forward to seeing you next week when we do it all again! Take
care.