This Week in Google 743

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

00:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's time for twig this week in Google. Paris Martinos here, jeff Jarvis and Pruitt Paris just finished a 4000 word piece for the information about what happened at open AI will get her insights who were the winners, who were the losers and what happens next. We'll also talk about Elon Musk's frivolous lawsuit against media matters and how. How have they changed Google Maps and why it's all coming up next on this week in Google Podcasts. You love? From people you trust this is twig.

This is twig this week in Google, episode 743, recorded Wednesday, november 22nd 2023. Competitive pantomime this week in Google is brought to you by secure my email. Secure my email provides easy encryption for your current personal and business Email addresses. Set up only takes minutes. Start your free account or enjoy a 30-day free trial of a premium plan. No payment info required and there's a special offer for twid listeners. Visit secure my email Dot-com.

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It's time for twig this week in Google to show that's about everything but Google this week. No Google all of Hi. Sorry, kids, actually I'm hoping to new names for this show. Jeff Jarvis is here. He's been with us since it began this week in Google. You could name it after me. Jeff's show, jeff show, it's time for Jeff's week. And Jeff the Leonard Tao professor. Ladies, gentlemen, I give you the Leonard Tao professor for journalistic innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate school At the city University of New York. Hello, jeff, for a few weeks more he's. He's deorbitant, but he's still there. He is at Gutenberg parenthesiscom. That's where his books are. I say books because the new magazine book came out too. Can I get at the same place, gutenberg parenthesiscom?

02:54 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yes, you can.

02:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You got a discount there 20% all right, hello, jeff, short, bail, it's short and shrew it is to my left. Mr Pruitt, of course, the community manager and club twit producer. Many shows of Great photographer, great friend, hello, aunt, hello sir, and you're wearing. I see you're wearing your special Super sneakers, your Adams, your MKBHD model can't fit it in, you know I knew he was wearing those his thigh is just too big to bed earlier to earlier.

This afternoon, just before the show began, he tripped over a mic wire, which is a real hazard around Mm-hmm, and you made the most graceful plie and got out of it, and I think was the Adams.

03:36 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
She's helped, but also being a prudent helps to be an approved, so he's a natural and all the way from beautiful Florida, the nation's capital, paris.

03:48 - Paris Martineau (Host)
The information all things trend towards Florida.

03:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Everything's moving that way house capital, including Paris, you're. You're visiting family for Thanksgiving.

03:58 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I am yeah down here. They apparently allow you to podcast here now, which is good, oh that's great. I was worried they could stop me at a TSA, but luckily I snuck this mic in.

04:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
To Rhode Island to visit my mom. I got pulled off the line and the guy looks at me and he says you got a microphone in here. I. Said that was very impressive.

04:26 - Paris Martineau (Host)
He said I still have to check it, but I guess he somehow Could tell so I was gonna make a joke that you're gonna play off the line like are you a podcaster?

04:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's what he said kind of it's like that's a microphone, isn't it? Yeah?

04:41 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
well, I would. You have a microphone. Why? What do you think you are? You have a microphone, yeah.

04:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I brought a whole kit so I could broadcast, as you know, from mom's house. I Left it there so I won't have to go through that horrendous strip search again. When he said in there, he didn't mean in my suitcase, by the way. Let's not go any farther, so I I'm gallivanting about over the weekend. Thank you, paris, for for being on a twit. It was great to have you happy to you know do it for the troops with the Vindra hard to war. And and Alex Lindsey, it was a great show.

Anthony, ha, anthony ha and the funny thing is there was big news and here I am in gallivanting and. But the funny thing, baby, people didn't notice is I was in the same town as Sam Altman on Friday.

05:30 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Oh, really, he was there for the race.

05:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He was in Vegas for the race as well Got a call at 12 noon. He got a text from Ilya Sutskever, who is the chief scientist at OpenAI, saying Sam, would board would like to meet with you at noon. You know, here's the Google meet. I think it's hysterical to use Google meet like Anyway, he gets on the Google meet within a minute, five minutes, you're fired. Sam, you're out of here. Greg Brockman, who's the chairman of the board, wasn't at this meeting, fired also.

From chairman of the board and then quit, he retained his position as president and quit within a few hours, basically said I'm loyal to Sam and I'm going with him. Ilya Sutskever is one of the one of the founders of OpenAI but also, more importantly, came to open AI from his research fellowship but was at MIT with Jeffrey Hinton, so he's a he's a Premier AI scientist and we learned since then that he was also a deep believer, a true believer, in AGI artificial general.

06:47 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Well, they all believe in AGI. He also believes in effective altruism. Yeah, so I'll believe that they're gonna, that they can make AGI and be all powerful.

06:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I actually wrote an opening statement for this show in which I explain exactly what happened. Would you like me to read it? Let's, let's hear it. I put it up on our community. The board, in my opinion, was doing its job, as least as far as the nonprofit was concerned. Open AI is a 501c3 non-profit. Part of it is right. Well, the problem is open AI is really two companies In fact.

Ben Thompson, in his Stratechery column, had the ever-changing MMO of open AI. When you apply for a nonprofit, you have to write a little thing in the in the form it asks. The government asked you briefly describe the organization's mission or most significant activities. In the first filing in 2016, they wrote as they're applying for the 5-1c3, open AI's goal is to advance digital intelligence In the way that is most likely to benefit humanity as a whole. Really important clause here unconstrained by a need to generate financial return, we think our, we think artificial intelligence technology will help shape the 21st century and we want to help the world build a safe underscore that AI technology and ensure that AI's benefits are as widely and evenly Distributed as possible. We're trying to build an AI as part of a larger community. We want to openly share our plans and capabilities along the way.

Now, this is when Elon Musk, sam Altman and a few others were starting open AI, and and that was the mission at first, and that's why they wanted to be a nonprofit is they didn't want big tech, chiefly Google, to get AI first, to get all to own AI, because the you know, I think if you believe in open, in an AGI, then your concern is that once computer AGI basically means an AI is able to reason as well as a human, or better.

Actually, if they can reason as well as a human, they will soon be able to reason better than a human, because the development will then suddenly explode and at that point, every all value disappears from big tech, all value disappears From the world. Everything changes dramatically. I'm not saying open, I'm not saying a GI will take over the world, but but everything changes dramatically. And so they want to make sure that was done in a safe way, in a fair way, right, but then they got in bed with Microsoft. Well, wait a minute, wait a minute. I think that, by the way, is honorable, and, and this is the but, but but let me just.

09:33 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
a lot of this is predicated on test real, I understand, on termism, and I fit with all of them, so so each side has their own brand of it's effective altruism, but, but?

09:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
but before you even get to that, you have to buy into the idea that there is an AGI Coming and coming soon. Okay, that there's gonna be. They believe, they all believe that, and you have to believe that. And if you believe that, I think it's honorable to say Jesus, this could change everything. So we want to try to make this equitable, okay, okay, I think that's completely honorable. That was all right. Two years later, the part that said openly share plans Was gone. They closed it off this and, by the way, in 20, this is 2018. That's when Elon splits.

10:16 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
That's what he left dudes.

10:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's not what I, what we started this about. But Sam Altman stayed, suit skiver stayed. Three years after that, they changed the goal of advancing digital intelligence to and this is also important Building general purpose artificial intelligence AGI. They specifically said we are, our goal now is to build a in AGI. So what year was that that was? Let's see. So they, they, they, they applied in 2015, I'm sorry, 2016, 2018, the split with Elon 2021. They said we're gonna go after AGI. So what really happened? To continue on with my thesis, what really happened is you had two companies, you had a nonprofit that wanted it to be safe, mm-hmm. But they quickly realized and by 2021, realized this is gonna cost so damn much money. We have to have a for-profit arm.

We need some money to finance this because chat GPT is burning money. A billion wasn't nearly enough.

11:23 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, I think they said like a hundred billion.

11:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, it's hugely expensive. So by the time we get to this board meeting, there's six board members. By the way, that changed over time, but there's six board members. There's the chairman, greg Brockman. There's the, the president, the CEO of Sam Altman. There's the chief scientist, ilya suits skiver, and then there are that's three, three others that are, by the way. Nobody has shares, none of these people. That's intentional. They don't want them to have any profit motive at all. Right, it's supposed to be nonprofit and you guys are not gonna benefit. Altman doesn't have shares. Brockman doesn't have shares.

12:00 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Suits Give me, a rockman does have shares really yeah, because there's shares in it from right Paris, from. There's an investment in there from what was the prefront prior employer he got fired from.

12:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh so, he brought, he brought well anyway, okay so he has?

12:19 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
He has some shares indirectly, yeah, but I don't know does not, and suits giver is not.

12:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yes, and then there were three board members who were really from an academic, from the academic, one was weirdly from quora. That was a little weird. Quora has its own AI, by the way, called Poe, so I don't know about him. But the other two women were researchers and and and scientists, experts in the field, and clearly were on the board to represent that nonprofit safe Contingent. So I think you had a three, three split on the board. You had suits giver, brockman and Altman, and then you had this, the kind of the science folks and Flash.

Yeah, people but the New York Times reported today, there was a tent, has been tension for years between these two groups and what happened, I believe and, by the way, great Reporting from the information and I know that you're up on this pair, so throw in anything you have To say about this but what I think happened was Ilya suits giver, who was initially on the three With Altman and Brockman, change sides. He's a chief scientist. He was it was reported a year ago at the Christmas party Getting everybody to chant feel the AGI, feel the AGI here. Rubelliver in artificial general intelligence. He switched sides and I think what happened is that he's an academic, remember, he's not a business person. He got, I think he got scared and said you know what Sam and maybe Greg too, but for sure Sam is Is Mentalizing this.

We're losing control of it. We're losing the safety angle. We got to do something. He went now by switching over. Now it's now it's four against two and the four deposed the two basically. And and incidentally, the thing that I saw so much about was oh my god, they've destroyed so much value. Microsoft stock plummets. Oh, the investors are crazy. The whole focus was I heard, I listened in to Jason Callicanus and David Sacks talking about this.

14:31 - Paris Martineau (Host)
David Sacks is well as you know.

14:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Adams Adams, I had to right, I had to find out what you do for the for the show for the show. I did it.

He says as you know, adam Smith said you can only trust a capitalist because you know his motive is profit. You, you know the butcher doesn't cut meat Because he's an altruist. He cuts meat because that's how he makes a living and you can trust him Because he wouldn't make a living if he didn't do the job right and cheated you and all this stuff. The only way to trust a business is to have them be have a for-profit motive and, honestly, I think that's the group that was most upset by this, because the board who really they didn't care that the stock market hadn't closed. They didn't care that they were gonna lose the staff. They wanted to stop it in its tracks because it was going in an unsafe direction.

15:20 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
That's my opinion. They didn't have any skin in the game, though. Right the board, yeah, but they they shouldn't have Because their job was sure that is the setup.

15:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's the setup they shouldn't have, because they're there to protect us Again. And if you believe in a GI, you believe this is the big Thing if remember what Sam Altman's and, by the way, sam had other businesses including. Remember that orb that you do your iris in, and that was really about a cryptocurrency called that was him.

Yes, that was a cryptocurrency called world coin, and the real purpose of world coin was Universal basic income. Because he believed a GI was coming, everybody was gonna be at a work, so we got to make sure we have universal basic income. The hubris of these guys is just that's the test career. Oh, it's my right, it is he also was going to the sovereign.

This, the Saudi sovereign fund. He was raising money with Sun Sun at Softbank for a special AI device to be designed by Johnny I've. He had all these, but this is Invested, all of your pins, your rewind, that's right.

16:26 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Main AI as well. I mean, I think something that's important here is, in the weeks leading up to when he got ousted there was kind of a conflict in the board because one of the Three people kind of on the research side, as you described it, helen Toner, one of the board members, had a co-authored this paper. That kind of it was about AI safety.

16:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It was not it was fully sized yeah yeah, it's criticized.

16:52 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Open AI. Yeah, basically said anthropic and some of the competitors are doing it right and were not, and Sam Altman Really didn't like that. He started advocating behind the scenes for the other board members to vote her out. So maybe that was the inciting incident for a Sotskiver switching.

17:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, Natasha Arrhenius, your colleague has a great as the story in the information Well and says all you know Paris has.

17:17 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Paris has the tick-tock of all of this brilliantly out just up. That's from Sunday, right? No, no, she has.

17:24 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, I wrote something that came out today that is a Minute by minute kind of playthrough.

17:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, what am I? What am I talking? For let's just go to the tick-tock.

17:34 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So it's lying, I moved it up, in fact, let's let's go to Paris's explanation line 69, how long is it tick-tock? Not tick-tock like the platform, tick-tock like we used to say.

17:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, last week that you have a whole month to write, obviously did not have a month to write this fourth, that's no, I luckily got to put that other thing aside, and me and my colleague Julia black Went into overdrive mode starting on. Monday I'm gonna shut up. I had no idea.

18:21 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean, yeah, it, like you said, this all kind of led to this breaking point. We're on Friday, sam was ousted, and then Greg Brockman, the president, followed, and then everything kind of Went to crap.

18:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You start the. Your lead in the piece is the apex talk that Sam Altman gave with Lorraine Powell, job Steve Jobs widow, in which he says we don't need heavy regulation, the current models are fine. We don't need heavy regulation. You're probably not for the next couple of generations, although that that generate they're doing generations.

19:01 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No generations every two weeks so yeah, I think he ends up going on to say like, oh, maybe when AI and the models get to the point where they can do the out point Output of a whole company or a whole country or the whole world then we could have a collective discussion about Kind of how to look over that. But I thought it was kind of telling that this what ended up happening, you know, six or so hours before he received a text inviting him to what ended up being the meeting where he was fired. Here he is talking about his kind of hands-off approach To safety and to who else but Lorraine Powell jobs, um, you know, widow of Steve Jobs, who was once kicked out by his own board, only to return to lead it. Yeah, it's a little on the nose.

19:50 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So I have to say, I have to say real quickly, I give Paris huge benefit points here, bonus points for getting in defenestration, that's a good word, that's just a straight word.

20:01 - Paris Martineau (Host)
He was from the latin, fennish there meaning window.

20:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Thrown from the window.

20:07 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So, as in Prague, he landed on some garbage and survived.

20:12 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yep, a real john wick four.

20:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So Paris Is. Do you feel like that's my characterization is accurate, that there were these two fact, not only two companies, but two factions on the board, and ilia defected to the faction that fired him, and it's my contention that they did what they were supposed to do, that they were not concerned about profit, they were not concerned about maintaining the company, they were concerned about safety and and the company living up to its mission of being AI for good. Is that? Do you think that's a fair characterization? I?

20:46 - Paris Martineau (Host)
think I think it's really difficult to say with any certainty right now what transpired with the board, because the board members have like the two women of which have now been kicked off the board They've all been kind of tight-lipped about it throughout this whole process. They hadn't even really talked inside the company about what happened behind the scenes. I think that your analysis of this is a good Interpretation of it and seems really likely, but we're not going to be, I think, 100 percent certain as to what went down and what the specific tipping point was until one of them speaks.

21:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, yeah, by the way, with Altman going back, and I think everybody knows that. The latest thing is that looks like everybody's going back. Uh, not going to microsoft. Sutsciver brockman. Sutsciver tweeted I love you guys. He changed his tune.

21:37 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That's what I was gonna ask this sounds Charge the future, jesus. They can't get through a weekend.

21:43 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, so uh, by I think like sunday satskiver had totally flipped. It was, I think, like five, 15 or something in the morning, either like sunday or monday. He ends up tweeting out 15 the morning, like west coast time, even tweets out like I'm so sorry, I made a mistake. Actually, sam is great. Yeah, who got to?

be, back at the company I. Apparently who got to him is Brockman, the president and former Uh executive chairman. The board, his wife, made an emotional plea to him in the headquarters of open ai and cried, begging him to not turn on sam. And that's what did it.

22:21 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Oh, that's really my favorite thing about your story. Paris is obviously. I can't imagine that. Jessica thought that we were going to have reporters out Stooping people, as new york daily news people do, mafia people right, and so there's obviously reporters from the information and all these locations counting pizza boxes coming out and things going in and it's just amazing to watch the drama unfold.

22:44 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, we uh have had a slack channel, obviously, as we're, you know, doing all the reporting and stuff for this, and it's been really. It was really incredible one just watch all my colleagues do this like great reporting. But too, I mean I think on what it was like saturday or maybe friday, someone Messages the group like oh, I'm hearing there's people gathering outside of sam altons place and one of the reporters is like I live 0.3 miles away and everyone's like go go.

She's like I don't have an umbrella, but she just and was outside until like midnight when someone came to relieve her and, uh, we'd had people staged outside of altman's house and then open ai For a while and I think it took until the next day for some of the other Outlets, like the times and the journal, to send people. That I think the fact is some really good color.

23:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That helen toner, uh, hasn't said anything to me again I'm we're reading tea leaves because we don't know, but to me is Reflective of the integrity. Like the easiest thing for them to do would be would be to say, well, let me tell you what was going on. But they didn't. And I think that, honestly, I feel like the board acted as a nonprofit board should, and with great integrity, even in the face Of a lot of, you know, egg on face. No, there's no egg on their face. They did exactly what they meant to do and they did it right. And but you're looking at it and, as everybody else is, from this capitalist point of view of, yeah, look at the value you destroyed. That's not what they're thinking about.

Here's a li is a tweet from 5 15 Monday morning. I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions. I never intended to harm open ai. I love everything we've built together and I will do everything I can to reunite the company, obviously after being harangued by Brockman's wife, elon musk's reply to that is interesting, remember. Elon left the company split off and took his money back.

24:35 - Paris Martineau (Host)
He helped found it yeah.

24:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He founded it, but he left when he said you guys are not doing the safety part, you're not doing the open part. Elon Responded to satsuki ver if open ai is doing something potentially dangerous to humanity, the world needs to know well, said elon musk.

24:52 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I will say this is the only time I will have to hand it to elon musk, but I do think he gets at a point here which is important, which is, if your interpretation of this is correct, uh, leo, which I think it's possible, it is why didn't the board Communicate their position in any way?

25:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
to, to the outside world, you mean? I mean, I think, the outside world. This has been going on, senior leaders or anyone, I think all year there's been this fight going on. I think there's a lot of evidence that that tension and fight, that they had in fact Communicated all this. Okay.

25:25 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Well, no, I mean, but the issue is they had this all hands meeting at like 2 pm Friday after They'd announced that altman was out. They didn't really give any detail specifically on why he'd been ousted, other than kind of they hadn't been candid in his communications. The board after this all hands a bunch of senior leaders and executives at open ai Kind of corner the board in a zoom column. They're like you need to give us more detail. This isn't acceptable. Like what are you talking about? Can you give us any specific instances, any examples? We've got to figure out something to tell people. And they wouldn't say anything. They said they eventually, I think, cited legal reasons Instead of you know for any more specifics.

26:03 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So Paris, I think they're on on um. There's an every A piece that goes into all of altman's deals and you listed most of them before. He also was going to start yeah chip company and these were things for his benefit when he could have personally been benefiting on the back of open ai and in a normal business Contract with a CEO. Unless you're jack dorsi or Elon musk, you would say, when you create these things here, they are part of the company and they go to the benefit of the shareholders, whoever. That may be right, but instead altman was doing all these other things. And there's also they're going to have an investigation of this and you could view that as samside or the board side, either way.

26:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, it's sam demanding, it isn't it?

26:46 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
or is it? No? I think it was also sam agreed to it.

26:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay Is the way he's put the impression that some people got and I got and there's reasons for this his sudden departure from white combinator. Uh, it said that he was doing the same thing, a white combinator, and uh, paul Graham had to fly over and fire him because he was, you know, doing so many side Dealings to his own benefit. There's also and I hate to bring this up, but uh, there's some there's some stuff about his sister, some accusations from sam altman's sister about when they were kids, and so it's not unusual, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say is there malfeasance here? You know, what did they mean when he said he wasn't honest with us and it's. I think it's reasonable to ask that question. Okay, and so I understand that it could be.

27:33 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
It could be about. It could be about you know deals, it could be about the cult stuff. The thing is, we don't know if it's a means.

27:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean, so many CEOs have been fired. For me two things. But here's what we're saying now that there was no, the coo said there's no malfeasance, so to take that out of your mind.

27:52 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
What's so hard here, leo, is that it's it's, it's it's like a religion, because you have to buy the punchline to buy the joke. I think so. Yes, if you really believe that a gi can exist and I think that is pure bs number one, I don't think it's going to exist Then you go to the next phase, which is you believe a agi could destroy humankind, which I also think is bs, which means c. If you are we talked about this on ai inside if you really think this is a danger, then the really crazies. What's his name? Elia? Elia zeer yakovsky, who wrote in time magazine, thinks that you should have thermonuclear war to destroy the machines, because it's that dangerous.

28:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So you got a crazy.

28:35 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Somebody has watched the terminator hero sandwich here anytime You're going real wacky. So to say that the board, to say that either side is right. You've got to buy Into their worldview and their worldview was wacky.

28:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, let me, let me uh, since I argued this is such a mess.

I argued in empathy with the board. Let me argue in empathy with sam altman. Sam altman gets the bills and sees how expensive this is and says this isn't a non-profit. It can't be a non-profit. If we want to achieve our goal, we need to do a deal with microsoft, because we got to get this. Azure credits Started with a billion went to another uh 12 billion Uh in azure credits. Now suddenly microsoft is a big stake. Did your reporting talk about Satya Nadella's reaction to this Paris?

29:27 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Well, I mean Satya, much like everyone else only found out five or ten minutes before the news went public. I think it's really interesting. It seems from all of the reporting my colleagues have done over the weekend and this is in the story as well that Satya Nadella was really personally involved in advocating for Sam Altman's return as CEO. He has a very close personal relationship with Altman and he was kind of acting as the go-between for a lot of the other investors, like Kossla, sequoia and others. They were talking to Microsoft and being like Microsoft or Satya in this case, specifically put pressure on the board to get Altman back.

30:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I guess that job offer was never official from Nadella to Altman it was official and then he immediately went on CNBC or something, Because it seemed like he came out like a press release, like he was hired, he did this great media tour, a sudden media tour, with Emily Chang on Bloomberg, cnbc, and then Bloomberg, and then Kara Swisher and said essentially the same thing on all three. I just love Sam Altman, I just love open AI. And we just want to work this out.

30:44 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
And I think your story said Paris that he said outright I'll be fine either way. As long as Sam.

30:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He owns 49% of open AI. Interestingly, and I wonder if they'll have a new charter and maybe we'll stop being a 501c3, because one of the stipulations is if they achieve open AI, agi, no one gets a share. Microsoft doesn't get it.

31:10 - Paris Martineau (Host)
if they get AGI, yeah, I mean, I think something that's worth, I guess breaking down a little bit for the listeners is the structure of it is open AI is a nonprofit. There's this for-profit entity inside of it and profits are capped for investors. I'm forgetting the exact structure of it, but during this period where they don't have AGI, the investors and people like Microsoft can get profit based on open AI is like earnings, but once you hit AGI, it all goes away.

31:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, they make a billion dollars a year now, but their burn rate, I'm sure, is much more than that.

Oh it's got to be crazy. It's moderated by the fact that Microsoft gave them a lot of the $13 billion is Azure credit. It's in kind and it's, by the way, a big win for Microsoft because, as far as we can tell and we were talking about this on Windows Weekly before Microsoft came in with that billion dollars they were not using Azure. So Microsoft gets a big win out of this, no matter what happens. That's, I guess, the point, leo on line 75,.

32:15 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yahoo Finance has a great chart of the structure here which goes even more into what you were saying. Let's see here.

32:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, you know what this comes from. This is their re-rendition of the 5.1c3 application.

32:31 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, so it's kind of fascinating. What a it's cuckoo, if you describe it at the top of the board of directors. It controls OpenAI the 501c3, which wholly owns OpenAI GP LLC, which controls the holding company of OpenAI nonprofit and OpenAI Global LLC. The OpenAI 501c3 owns the holding company and the employees and investors own part of the holding company, and then Microsoft owns parts of OpenAI Global LLC and it's all a weird mess.

33:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That is a mess. Some say that that's the source of this problem, that if they hadn't created such a strange corporate structure, it's my sense that they my guess is they wanted to make it a nonprofit, but they had to have a profit-making arm just to fund it.

33:25 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
You know no, and so that was Is it as simple as just dropping a nonprofit for 2024?

33:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think it's pretty clear. I don't know Paris, but I think it's pretty clear that what will happen now is there will no longer be a nonprofit right.

33:39 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I'm not sure if that's clear or not. I think that you'd have to change an aspect of the charter. I mean, part of what I had assumed was a lot of these investors one of their motivations maybe for wanting Sam Ullman back, in addition to just liking him is then you replace the board and perhaps that could change the structure of it. But I think it would have to be I think it would you would need a lot of buy-in in order to totally change the company's structure and you'd have to rewrite the charter and whatnot.

34:07 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Oh yeah, here's a little bit and going from clear version the information story about that too, about trying to switch from not not-for-profit to for-profit, is very complex because you can't have a mingling.

34:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, but what if you dissolved the company? Yeah. And then, miraculously, five days later Well, thrive is coming in.

34:27 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Thrive is coming in and is going to be doing an $86 billion valuation, buying employees stock. Thrive is one of the biggest investors.

34:35 - Paris Martineau (Host)
And that is a thing that a lot of employees were really worried about and I bet as part of the reason why so many ended up signing into this open letter. Over the weekend, almost every open AI employee signed this letter saying well quit if Ullman isn't reinstated.

34:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Here's the thing that-.

34:50 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I guess that they thought this share, secondary share sale, a tender offer, wouldn't go through.

34:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They wanted the money Right. But this is what puzzles me because if Okay, say, you're a hot shot, open hot shot AI researcher, you can write your own ticket with a lot of different companies. I mean, you can make more than a million dollars a year with any number of companies. You go to open AI. It seems to me you go to open AI, maybe even with the promise of less money, because you believe in this mission.

35:18 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No, they're getting. I think the average software engineer at open AI is getting a million dollars a year.

35:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're making good money.

35:27 - Paris Martineau (Host)
And they believe in the mission.

35:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah. And there's equity.

35:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's what's puzzling to me. And there's equity so they could go to my office you can cash out now yeah, okay, but at the same time yeah, they're not angels.

35:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Leo, they're not angels.

35:39 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
They have no halos over their heads, okay.

35:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So they're there because of the money they're peaks, not because they believe in the-.

35:47 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I'd say probably both. Yeah, they could be both.

35:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're also cultists. They could make that kind of money probably anywhere, right, but they chose open AI.

35:57 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Not a million, oh yeah, annually.

35:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh yeah, that's what's amazing. Damn, I don't know. I mean, I know someone-.

36:03 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I know someone-.

36:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Remember he started 42, his own AI company. He was offering, I think, stock and salary worth 11 million a year, as I remember. Oh yeah, there's good money in this Because you believe in Elon's stock. Yeah, so far so good on Elon's stock, by the way, there's good money in this Well. And so I think that these people are at open AI because they believe in the mission. But maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

36:30 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I don't know. Here's the other thing, leo there's no definition of AGI. I was at this conference in San Francisco last week, a World Economic Forum AI governance summit, and Gary Marcus was there and he talked about how he tried to get Elon to agree to a long bet on AGI. Elon has said we'll get the AGI in 2029. And Gary Marcus said okay, I'll bet you $100,000, but let's define it. And of course, elon wouldn't do it. And the definition was that it could do this and this and this. This has been public. There's zero definition to this Zero.

37:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's not so much. There's no definition, there's just no test. It's like that's the same thing, yeah, you don't know when you're there. Agi would be something that could reason as well as a human. I mean, that's a simple way to put it. But how do you know? How do you test that? It's easy to define, hard to prove and, honestly, I think I've changed my tune a little bit on the idea of AGI, because I've changed the definition in my mind.

It doesn't have to be a machine that understands what it's doing. It doesn't have to understand context, it certainly doesn't have to be conscious. It merely has to be able to reason as well as a human. That seems to me a little bit easier to do, and I think we're a lot closer than we think. Personally, is it a conscious entity? No, that's the mistake I think some people make. Now, if the people here's the thing that puzzles me. If the people who are directly working on this, who know much better than you and I how this works, are believers, then maybe we are closer. I mean, wouldn't they be the ones with?

38:15 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
standards. They also believe in this other. They believe in EA and transhumanism and long-termism and 10 to the 58th human beings, and this is why everybody should watch the interview that Jason and I did with Emil Torres about Tess Griehl on AI Inside, because it's a great interview and it really puts a context to all of this to say whoa that's what these guys think.

38:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think though okay, so that's philosophical. Agi from their point of view doesn't have to be philosophical, it just is a thing. Is this? Can this reason like a human?

38:48 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I also say, though the WeWork employees believed that their company would be the end of everything, that their company would be WeLife. Just because employees of a particular company believe that their mission is absolutely going to come to fruition doesn't mean much of anything.

39:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And they believed in Adam Newman. But that's the cult of personality. Clearly Sam Altman has that going for him.

39:15 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, clearly to a level that we haven't seen before. I think that that is something. The huge takeaway from this is that Sam Altman really has it.

39:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All right, I want to take a break. We come back. Let's talk about the new structure. Do you want more thing?

39:29 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Okay, more thing. I just put it in the Discord Gary Marcus's bet, because I'm just curious to hear your reaction If you scroll down there to the bullets. This is what Gary Marcus was saying, and Gary Marcus is a really, I think, sane voice around AI and knows his stuff. He's saying this is his bet. He was trying to get with Elon and arguing that in 2029, ai will not be able to watch a movie and tell you accurately what is going on. This is comprehension. You do need comprehension to reason. I disagree with you there. It's not just about Turing test Two. Ai will not be able to read a novel and reliably answer questions about plot character animations.

40:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It can do all those things right now. What are you talking?

40:13 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
about Not reliably. Reliably, leo Can't. Three, because that's the whole thing. There's hallucinations which they like to call confabulations. Now I learned it in San Francisco Can what? Conflations, Confabulations. There is no sense of truth, fact, belief, anything in AI. It is still just a word prediction machine. We're blowing in way too much here because, as Emily Bender says, we are the ones who are imputing meaning in what we see. The machine has no meaning in it. We're the ones who want to believe it. Three AI will not be able to work as a competent cook in an arbitrary kitchen. Four AI will not be able to reliably construct bug-free code of more than 10,000 lines In five, ai will not be able to take arbitrary proofs from the mathematical literature written in natural language and convert them into symbolic form. That was what Gary was suggesting as a test of saying okay, it's a crappy test.

41:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I just asked chat TPD for to what's the plot of the cane mutiny?

41:12 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Okay, plot different than conflicts and motive.

41:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Hold on. Now. I ask the motive, please hold on. It then says the novel explores themes of authority, duty, mental health and the moral complexity of military life. Lieutenant Barney Greenwald faces the moral dilemma of defending the mutineers by exposing Quiggs mental state.

41:32 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Despite Greenwald's personal belief in the necessity which comes out of a hundred reviews.

41:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's not analysis.

41:38 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, that's the thing.

41:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, sorry about that. So you're saying it should just if so, the test would be sit down and watch this movie. I don't know how you do that, but okay, right, and then tell me that.

41:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I want an AI to sit down and watch Nicholas Cage's movie face off and tell me the conflict and motivation between Nick Cage and John Travolta and not get them mixed up even once. Then I will believe in true.

42:04 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I'm with Paris. That's the Paris test.

42:06 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I'm with Paris test and it could be difficult.

42:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I honestly think that you're you're, you're setting up a straw man because what it just did, based on whatever inputs it had, was good and accurate. And the point is, if you walk up to a terminal and you ask it a question like that and it gives you an answer, that is human reasoning. Quality does it matter? Whether it watch the movie or not, it doesn't matter. You're not reasoning.

42:35 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
No, no, you're setting up. It doesn't have to reason.

42:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's your strong.

42:38 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, it does. I do think it has to, I thought Intelligence.

42:41 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Intelligence that sounds like fetching, more so than reasoning.

42:45 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yes, yes, thank you.

42:47 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Well said.

42:50 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I once asked Ray Chris well about this.

42:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
and he said if you can't tell the difference, what does it matter?

42:55 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Okay, but I think the difference right now in what you two are talking about is that response that you just got, leo is being generated from other people's reviews and summaries of a movie. What we're talking about is can it?

43:09 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
do it on the fly Ray.

43:10 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I in a vacuum watch, but it's not in a vacuum.

43:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The book, but it's not in a vacuum. You're setting up a scenario that isn't realistic. It's not in a vacuum. Does it matter if it is just taking it from other people's reviews?

43:30 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
If it, if it's impressive, but it's not super intelligence. I say it can't take over the work of companies. Okay.

43:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It can't take over the work of people. It can't take over the work of companies and the work of people.

43:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, you're absolutely, unless you're saying that it can't take over my job, unless you go watch a movie and tell me what the moral complexities of it work.

43:49 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Harrison I need to do that.

43:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You're really, you're really asking more of it than it needs to to be an AGI, and I think that that's the difference I really see a large language model.

44:00 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
You're right to be artificial general intelligence, artificial superintelligence, able to take over all human functions.

44:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So tell me what it would look like to you as you're walking around in the world, and what an AGI would look like to you If it has to be general right. Agi doesn't. You don't know how, where it got anything from. I'm just talking about its behavior. You don't get to say how did you figure that out? You don't get to ask me how did I figure that?

44:29 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
out. You get to give it to Paris's test. You get to give it. So what you would expect a human to be able to do to reason and to um to reason if we could literally put this box.

44:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But what is reasoning of a television? But wait a minute, what is reasoning? You think you do it, don't you? But what is it described to me? What is your you're? You're saying that it can't be an AGI unless it reasons. Well, what does that mean?

44:55 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Breaking down means you can throw it a problem, it can reason it through Well. I don't, that's not a lot, that's not a lot.

45:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You can't reason by reasoning.

45:06 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It can respond to stimuli in a logical way that resembles a human, socially acceptable human response.

45:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, Give me a stimuli that you're talking about here and I'll. I'll just ask you 1990s film face off. So if I, if I ask it, describe the motivations, wait See, and you're saying oh, no, but it's getting that from somebody else's review. Some human did that, it doesn't. I don't know where you got your ideas from. Did you get it from just watching the movie?

45:44 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I got my ideas straight from Nighthawk cinemas Cage, Mondays night.

45:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But does it matter Walking?

45:51 - Paris Martineau (Host)
there blind, but do I Interpreted the stimuli, that is.

45:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And say well, you can't really be, reasoning. If you have read any other reviews of it, you have.

46:00 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I hadn't read any reviews. I know, but it doesn't matter, I know baby.

46:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I know, but it doesn't. But that's but it. To me and as an outside observer, it it doesn't, it's irrelevant, right.

46:10 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Well, I mean. So that's the thing is. I think the difference here is that if we are trying to prove that this technology has something and this something in this case being reasoning and this technology is something that is very good at synthesizing ideas that it has gotten from other sources and repackaging that for us, we're going to try and you know, have a controlled experiment and take out as many variables from it. And so in this case, what we want to isolate is its ability to interpret information and then have certain responses.

46:46 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Does a toddler reason?

46:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)

46:50 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
That's not well sometimes, but yeah. Right. So that's what I'm thinking about when it, when it comes to this scenario, you're thinking of if, if it can do like a toddler and reason just from being in the moment in life experience, not necessarily fetching data from some other source that God online or what See again.

47:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You're too concerned with how it got there. You want to see a thought process yeah, doesn't matter, it only matters what comes out the mouth at the end. And you cannot infect. I would submit figure out what the thought process is or whether it had one. You can only judge the answer If it could take the SAT and score 800, you can't, it doesn't matter.

47:34 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Well, how was your reasoning? No, leo, I mean, think about back to how we math class. You're an elementary or middle?

47:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)

47:42 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I understand You're asked to show your work.

47:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But, why, does it matter if the AGI shows its work?

47:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)
The reason why we do that in schools is to make sure that people are actually learning, developing the capability to reason or figure out certain parts of these various puzzles.

48:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And it is to develop that critical thinking. Here's, here's, look, I honestly don't care.

But what I'm arguing is the point of view that I think the people at open AI and other AI scientists are arguing and Ray Kurzweil was certainly arguing which is you're too concerned about how it got there. That's not relevant to the point, which is does it get there? If it gets there, it doesn't matter how it gets there. In fact, it's probable that a machine will not get there the same way a human gets there. You're way you're trying to use how it gets there as the judgment of whether it's thinking, and that's because you're thinking about thinking. It's not about thinking. It's the result, and that's why Kurzweil was telling me if you can't tell, it doesn't matter. And I think that that's exactly what the open AI people are saying, and that's why you, that's why we're saying, oh, you can't have AGI because you can't have a thinking machine, but that that's probably true, but that's not what they're saying. They're not saying we're not. We're not trying to create reason. We're trying to create something that is a simulation of reason. That's so good that you can't tell the difference.

49:07 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
But that's going back to the Turing test of you can't of fully nuts. Yeah, that's the Turing test. So when I was at this Weff event, it was a good structure that they in my breakout group because you have to have breakout groups that said that what AI? They refused to delineate generative AI from AI. It's all AI, it's just phases.

49:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think that's actually true. They said that.

49:28 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I think it is, and they said that the group I was in, which was very full, was very smart. People who do protein folding and all kind of amazing stuff said that AI has the potential to raise the floor, allowing people access to tasks they wouldn't otherwise have. Scale, allowing us to be efficient in those tasks and raise the ceiling. Allow us to do things we can't do, like protein folding, which is not general, very specific, but phenomenal. On the bad side, it can have economic inequality. It can scale evil, because you can now put disinformation all over. You can create a disease that's going to do bad things. What was the third one? I forget, but the point is that there is a structure. I think we can look at this, but it has no reaction to reality. Let me try this on you. So Emily Bender or Margaret Mitchell one of them says that you should imagine if you want to understand how generative AI operates, llm operates.

You're in a library in Thailand. You don't speak the language, you don't understand the symbols. There are no translations there, there are no picture books there. All you have is the symbols and their relationships to work with. That's all that AGI has is symbols of what we think of as words, but it doesn't know as words and their relationships with them it does, this huge concordance which makes it able to make predictions that impress us. But is that problem solving it's going to? All it's doing is predicting what we would likely say. So it's mimicking us, and it's doing a good job of mimicking us, because it has all of our words to deal with. But is it able to take over the world? Is it truly intelligent? I think Kurtzweil and these guys are wrong there that if it appears to be it is. I think that fails the test. Now you want to do a commercial?

51:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, this is why I don't I like how he started off the whole thing. I tried to get into the commercials, sorry, just one thing. And then you stopped me.

51:22 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I'm sorry I interrupted you. I did, but I wanted to keep going with the story.

51:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, you could, and we can come back after the commercial. It's good, okay, and, incidentally, sorry. Just think about what you were saying, paris, a teacher is trying to teach you how to think. That's why they want you to show your work. But if you came to me and said, what's one you know gave me a tough math problem and I gave you the answer. If you're not trying to teach me to think, that's sufficient, right, yeah?

51:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But we're trying to. I don't need to show my work if I get the right answer, yeah.

51:54 - Paris Martineau (Host)
But we're not. We don't already know that this knows how to think?

52:01 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
What we're doing right now and what these companies are. It doesn't have to think.

52:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's all I'm saying but we know it doesn't know how to think. We know that it doesn't know how to. It's process is not the same as ours.

52:09 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Someone in Discord had a good point, was it Andrew? He basically said a plumber can still go out and do all of their different jobs, but they have a certain level of code that they have to follow in order to get the job done. Shouldn't this be the same type of parameters in place for AI? Yes, it gets the job done, but did it do it within? Yeah?

52:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All of that's what it would do, and what you don't ask is well, how'd you figure that out? You don't care how it figured it out, and if it didn't use the same process as a human? Well, part of you cares Well, if we, if the result is satisfactory and it falls the code, then you're satisfied. Okay, yeah, if it followed a code it would. Because that's actually the thing it does best. I think we're too stuck on how it gets there, and I don't think it matters how it gets there is what I'm saying.

53:02 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I still think it's. I'm going to go back to old Leo and I think this is going to be proven to be a parlor trick that is unreliable for so many tasks. We put it to he calls you old.

53:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
New cultish-ing old. He didn't mean old that way. He meant previous, the previous Leo, let's say previous Leo.

53:18 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Okay, I am saying it is pretty interesting that this is happening right before you're going to go on your week-long silent meditation. It's like you are kind of slow fading into a cult a little bit here. No, I'm thinking it for us.

53:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Honestly, I don't know. Look, I don't pretend to understand or know the answer to this at all. I'm actually just arguing the various sides of it and I think that it's not unreasonable to say who cares what its process is, or if it understands context, or if it can think, if it comes up with a. If you ask me what's a billion times three, seven, five, nine, four, and I say the right answer, it doesn't matter if I can show my work. That's only if you're trying to teach somebody to think. All we care about with the AI is does it come up with the right answer? Right?

We don't care if the plumbing, I mean all we care about it?

54:08 - Paris Martineau (Host)
yes, but the people who are making the AI are trying to teach it how to think in this, oh, no, that's the oh by the way.

54:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's really important and that's why the people who do this have a different opinion on it. They're not trying to teach it to think. They're very, very clear. They're not trying to duplicate human process at all.

54:28 - Paris Martineau (Host)
They're trying to teach it to have outputs, and it does matter how it gets to those outputs, because it's not reliable and it's not going to be reliable.

54:35 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
It is not going to be reliable. Jaymer B, if he comes back in a week and asks you to start building the bomb shelter, will you let us know?

54:43 - Paris Martineau (Host)
If he comes back and just walks into the studio with a case full of dance clothes and it's all of you guys hear it, let us know.

54:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm just saying a lot of this is definitions, it's not. Yes, it's how you define all of this. Yes, yes, define intelligence. I think we are. Yeah, I think it's crucial. The problem is we don't really have good definitions for thinking or intelligence, or reason or anything. Any of that stuff. You have to be outcome focused. I honestly think that's why the scientists who are doing this have a different point of view than we do. We have a more philosophically base.

55:26 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Well, they don't all have this If you listen to people. When I was at the meeting last week in the public part, ian Bremmer was up on stage with somebody from OpenAI and others. He said I don't want to talk about AGI. Andrew Ning was on stage. He said this is worthless to talk about, whether it's going to destroy humanity with AGI. I don't know if the radio waves we're sending, any more than I know the radio waves we're sending that into space are going to bring the aliens who will kill us. It doesn't matter. There was a dismissal of this whole idea at AGI with the professionals who do this. This idea of AGI is itself a small but powerful and rich cult that some parts of the technology world are mocking and dismissing. I don't think we should assume that they're all into AGI. There's a lot of nutty people here.

56:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think nutty doesn't matter. I think it does matter. It matters very much the button to destroy mankind. It matters very much If sending radio waves brings down an alien invasion, it matters very much. We may not know.

56:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I don't know if the aliens are cool.

56:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, they could be cool. We don't know what the outcome will be, but we didn't know what the outcome would be when they started research on the atomic bomb. You have to, before you invent these things, think about the outcome, not after it's too late, true?

56:46 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
In a somewhat realistic way. That's the other problem here is I think that there Again, I think the AGI is BS and the destroy humanity is BS, and the test grill is real BS. Yeah, but what? And so I want to have this discussion. I agree At a scientific level 90%.

57:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
you're right. But what if you're not?

57:05 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
How long, aliens, they're coming down to New Jersey.

57:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But what if you're not? I'm just saying the order of the world is real, I know.

57:10 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
It's prudent to think about. They don't seem with religion. What if I'm wrong about God? And God says they try to tell you time and time again. Your parents try to tell you, sorry, bud.

57:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, there's less evidence that there's a hell than there is AGI. I think there's more evidence for an AGI. I'll be honest with you If you gave me the choice, you even. Hellragesia, you even. Which one are you going to choose? I'm just saying I don't think it's a completely outrageous consideration, especially since we're working towards it, just as we worked towards the atomic bomb.

57:47 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Well, hey, now we're. So, in a sense, darwin robbed us, or Newton robbed us of the idea that the universe had purpose. Darwin robbed us of the idea that evolution has purpose, and now the machine robs us of the idea that we have purpose.

58:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Actually, evolution is a really interesting point, because evolution does not think, it does not reason, but we are the result of it. There's a mechanical process that produced what we think of as thinking. Yes, I agree with that.

58:20 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So, let's to say that there cannot be a mechanical process that can create a machine that there's a book I quoted in Gutenberg called how History Gets Things Wrong, and it says that the theory of mind is a fiction. It's when we believe, we think we can tell other people are thinking that it's not. It's more evolution. It's more the videotape plays in our head like AI and we do that, and so I agree with you there. But if you're going to call what we do intelligence, not how we do it, but what we can turn out which I think what Paris is saying then whether it can turn that out reliably in any situation in general Well, you're not reliable in any situation.

Wait a minute, that's a standard.

58:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's a standard that's pretty high.

59:00 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Jeff is incredibly reliable. That's exactly what AGI is In all situations.

59:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It could take over the work of every company. It doesn't have to be reliable. You're not reliable, steve Jobs is not reliable. Sam Altman is not reliable. That's a very high standard, if that's your standard. Yeah, you're right, we're never going to have AGI. You're right, you win. You just raised the bar so high we can't get there. But you just also stipulated that we are the result of a mechanical process.

59:28 - Lou Maresca (Announcement)
That all the things that we are and think uh, no, I don't know if that's true either.

59:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean, I sometimes think there's a soul. But if, if, in fact, darwin was right and we're the result of a mechanical, pro purely mechanical process, then why couldn't an AGI become the result of a mechanical process?

59:46 - Lou Maresca (Announcement)
That's the thing, that's the real good, that's maybe the fundamental philosophical questions.

59:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I asked Steve Gibson this and he said no, we're no different than a computer, we just do it faster and you know in parallel or whatever. But but we are mechanistic machines.

01:00:03 - Paris Martineau (Host)
We are mechanistic but we are also the result of randomness. I mean, if we're going to get like really philosophical, about that we are the result of randomness over time plus mechanical processes, which is what makes us different than a machine that is purely mechanically designed.

01:00:20 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
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01:00:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Nice job. Thank you, Mr Ant Pruitt.

01:00:31 - Paris Martineau (Host)
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01:04:09 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I want to know one thing yeah, what's Simon Altman's $27 million house like?

01:04:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't know, have you been inside it? Has anybody been inside it? Your colleague? Lives .3 miles away, your colleague must be doing alright.

01:04:25 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, apparently, unlike the surrounding buildings, which are Bay Windowed Victorians painted in bright colors, his $27 million remaniton is like Starkely Modern and tucked away behind a maze of plants and trees. Oh, you can't see it, it's got a big gate where an Uber, not an Uber an Amazon delivery driver chucked a package.

01:04:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I thought you were going to say he had his own personal Amazon delivery driver.

01:04:51 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No, I mean, that would make sense.

01:04:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So what neighborhood of San Francisco? Russian Hill? Oh, that's a nice. You know what? That's where I would live. That's a nice. It's not too fancy. It's not Pacific Heights where the millionaires live, it's kind of artsy nice. You want a picture? We got a picture in the Discord. Look at that. How did they get this picture? Is this made up or is this real?

01:05:13 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
That's his house. That's made up, Okay, oh no. No, that's a different Altman.

01:05:17 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That's a different Altman. That's a different Altman.

01:05:20 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Is that a one on television. This house in San Francisco $27 million.

01:05:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
For sure, that's $40 million, that one's $40 million yeah.

01:05:27 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I was going to say Different.

01:05:29 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Altman. It's a different Altman, altman Brothers I was looking this up, oh the Altman Brothers.

01:05:33 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
I've seen that on a television show. It's pretty nice.

01:05:36 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Not the Altman Brothers, the Altman Brothers.

01:05:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They own furniture stores.

01:05:41 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Huh All right, sorry, leo Go ahead.

01:05:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So let's just say where. What's the state of play right now? There's a new board. Interestingly, they got rid of all the women, because that was the problem.

01:05:53 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Women won't stop talking. Am I right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, they got rid of the way.

01:05:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There were two women on the six person board which is, according to my careful calculations don't ask me to show my work 33%, but there is now 0%, not to mention the fact they replaced them with Larry Summers, who has former secretary of treasury, but maybe better or more, shall I say, infamous as president of Harvard, when he said that women don't have the brains to pursue STEM. Yep.

01:06:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh well.

01:06:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean he'd know.

01:06:32 - Paris Martineau (Host)

01:06:37 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So I just let that. So, Paris, did you hear anything about them expanding the board, or is this the board?

01:06:42 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No, the board, I believe, is three people. I'm forgetting the name of. One of them is someone who was previously on the board. Deangelo, I believe, was the last one.

01:06:49 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
It's the Quora guy, quora guy stayed, larry Summers. Larry Summers plus Brett Taylor.

01:06:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Brett Taylor.

01:06:55 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Now, who's a nice guy?

01:06:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We've talked about Brett Taylor before. He comes up a lot on this show for some reason.

01:07:02 - Paris Martineau (Host)
We could do this week in that. Brett Taylor, if you're looking for Brett Taylor's, story is great.

01:07:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I feel like he might even be listening. So nice job, brett, 43 years old. His history is fascinating. It is he created Where2 Technologies, did mapping right Yep and integrated Where2 Technologies into Google Maps. Might be a herd of that. Later CTO at Facebook, chairman of Twitter's board of directors prior to the acquisition by Elon Musk. In fact, the reason we were talking about him one year ago is because he's the guy who forced Elon Musk to buy.

Twitter, nice job. Then his other company got bought by Salesforce, so he became the co-CEO of Salesforce alongside Mark Benioff. He was one of the founders of Friend Feed, which we loved. That's where I really became aware of Brett Taylor, the creator of Quip, which is what is Quip? I don't remember Quip.

01:08:07 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I like Quip. Is that the D2C toothbrush or is?

01:08:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
that I don't think that's the toothbrush. It's productivity software from mobile and the web.

01:08:14 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
No, we liked it. It was really good.

01:08:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I can't remember what it did, though. So his co-creator Google Maps, ceo of Friend Feed, former CTO of Facebook, founded Google App Engine with Kevin Gibbs On the board of Shopify. He was on the board of Shopify. I mean, this guy did everything. He's a really nice guy too.

01:08:34 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
He also was the mediator in the eventual negotiations that led to Altman being reinstated.

01:08:43 - Paris Martineau (Host)
He was the middle ground person. Emmett Shear brought him in Because everybody likes Brett.

01:08:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Taylor. Everybody likes him. They just want him to be on the board. I just want to hang with him. He's a great guy. Now, Emmett Shear is an interesting story. He was, by his own count, for 55 hours the CEO of OpenAI. I remember Emmett from Did he get a t-shirt? Justintv? Remember Justin Kahn?

01:09:08 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Yeah, I'm sure it was my old CEO at my old company.

01:09:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He was your old company, right? We talked to Justin. I knew Justin I'm sure I knew Emmett at the same time, because it was just a couple of guys in a dorm room and they put a camera on Justin's head and they followed him around.

01:09:21 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
He had a big backpack full of yeah, and Emmett was his partner in this.

01:09:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't know if he was a tech. I guess he was the technical guy. Then later I found out what became Twitchtv, which was bought by Amazon for almost a billion dollars. Were you with Twitch before the Amazon acquisition? No, no After. After. Did you know, Emmett?

01:09:46 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
I did I had to do. I saw he was in video production at Twitch so I did all the corporate.

01:09:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, so he'd come in and say yeah, yeah, I'd shoot him, all right. Well, how do I look? Do I look good? All right, let me talk, shoot me, shoot me.

01:09:58 - Paris Martineau (Host)
He's been linked to effective altruism. He's an AAPA guy, yeah, yep, otherwise he would be he also, I think, in a recent podcast recording he estimated that there was a five to 50% chance that AI could pose an existential threat to humanity.

01:10:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So he believes in all that. So he's a yeah, he's a good model.

01:10:17 - Paris Martineau (Host)
He's also, I think a bunch of old tweets resurface whenever you Bad stuff when he, like you know, mused on women's rape fantasies and wondered aloud whether putting out some power and be irreparable to risk the demise of humanity by AI. You know all that stuff but everybody likes him.

01:10:32 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Taylor, not a nice guy, everybody likes him.

01:10:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, that's Brett Taylor. Everybody likes.

01:10:35 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Nobody likes Emmett in here this is sheer.

01:10:37 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Everybody hates Emmett in here oh yeah.

01:10:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I lost the Emmett Sheer was probably singularly most least qualified to take over open AI, but he got the job done you were the 10th choice.

01:10:48 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah they would swear everybody. Yeah, they went to their main competitor, Anthropoc, and asked if they wanted to take over open AI before they went to Emmett Sheer.

01:10:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Anthropoc, interestingly, was like Elon Musk, former open AI, people who didn't like the direction open AI was going in split it off, who are also very test-real Anthropoc people.

01:11:11 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
So anyways now.

01:11:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is that what's happening?

01:11:14 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
People doing Craig.

01:11:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Craig, Now the chairman of open AI. What was that Huh?

01:11:20 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Anthropoc, would you say him, do they do, craig Claude Claude, claude, claude Craig.

01:11:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Craig is inside a.

01:11:26 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Discord Sorry.

01:11:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
By the way, craig is still available. If you want to name an AI Craig, you can do that.

01:11:32 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, it's gotten AI in there too. Yes, it does. It's huge. Oh, oh my God.

01:11:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Guys, guys, get on Craig. The AI is built in.

01:11:42 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Is it Craig or Bot? You said he essentially is saying something about under the Craig GPT you can't do the craigs without AI.

01:11:53 - Paris Martineau (Host)
You can just clip Leo saying this and he's built it.

01:11:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean, this is made for AI. Anyway, the new chairman of the board is Greg Brockman, which, by the way, sounds like a phony character from the Simpsons. Doesn't he sound like the anchor man?

01:12:08 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
on the TV show. He does Wait. No, he's not the chairman.

01:12:11 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I don't think he Brett Taylor is the chairman. Yeah, I don't think he's the.

01:12:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Sorry, Taylor replaced Brockman. I got that right. Brett Taylor is COB. What else we have? Larry Summers. Larry, women aren't smart Summers, math is hard Summers, you know. He, though, is there because, as Secretary of Treasury, he's very worried about AI taking the white collar jobs. He wanted to protect the white collar jobs, so that's why he's there to protect the white collar jobs. God knows We've got to protect the white collar jobs.

01:12:47 - Paris Martineau (Host)
We need someone standing up for white collar jobs.

01:12:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Somebody has to stand up for the lawyers, the ad executives, all the white collar workers, the middle managers of the world.

01:12:57 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Who's going to commit white collar crimes without? You know, without.

01:13:01 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)

01:13:01 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Summers there Exactly.

01:13:03 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Arguably the jobs that can be replaced most easily by AI.

01:13:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, of course, it's the people doing the plumbing who are not going to be replaced by AI, exactly.

01:13:12 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I guess the other update is that Altman agreed to an internal investigation into the alleged conduct that prompted the Board to oust him as part of coming back.

01:13:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And I think that's in his interest, unless he did, really did something bad. I think that's in his interest, because people in the back of their minds are going to say well, what?

01:13:30 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Well, who's going to do the investigation? Independent.

01:13:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Great question, Independent, no, no, no, it's an independent. Yeah, it's an independent. So is it like back to business as usual? They, the five of the 715 employees something like 730 of them said we're out of here if Sam's out of here. So they got them back. Yeah, it's pretty funny. I love the the bit you showed me on Daily Show about it. What employees would say if the boss is out of here, I'm gone, who cares about the boss? Who cares about the boss? Honestly, if I go, if I disappear, you're going to go. Hey, see you. Goodbye, oh, we can't do it without you. All right, Anyway, is this is? Is there a winner out of all this? I have a theory the big winners, everyone's a loser.

Everyone's a loser.

01:14:26 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, with a big L on the forehead, yeah.

01:14:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Maybe Microsoft, not yet I don't know.

01:14:33 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Not yet, not yet, yeah, right and right.

01:14:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We don't know, we don't know. Okay, there we go, you got it. I said it was the effective altruist versus the capitalist, but I don't think that's really fair, because everybody involved was an effective altruist, right, exactly.

01:14:50 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean the.

01:14:50 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
AGI person is part of you also have the acceleration versus the effective altruist.

01:14:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So if you go back to right and the incels, you got them all.

01:15:05 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
They're all kind of insolvent oh boys, I don't know, there's like effective altruists.

01:15:13 - Paris Martineau (Host)
They, uh, they get around. That was the whole thing with FDX, right.

01:15:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, sam Bankard Fried was the guy I think like the effective altruist. What is the Jeff? What is? What is that? What is the definition of effective altruism?

01:15:26 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That's I'll say it my way that's. I can earn a hell of a lot of money because I'm going to decide where to put it to good end and I'm going to decide the future of mankind, so trust me. So it's an excuse to make a lot of money. Effective accelerationists are I don't care if I'm doing it good, just don't stand in my way. And this is where, where um Mark Andresen is, he's an accelerationist.

01:15:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I you know, the effective altruists would not define themselves the way you do. I warned you.

01:15:55 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I said I'm going to find it my way.

01:15:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, well, I'll say it they way. They say, and I think this is reasonable. You know, bill Gates uh always said I'm not going to give away my money until I can do it right. It's hard to do it right. Look at Mark Zuckerberg, who gave how much money to Newark like a hundred million dollars to Newark, and it was burned. So the the real point of effective altruism, at least as they say it you're probably right there's. They have it's a lot of hubris, some motives underneath, but they as they say it is we want to do good, but we want to do it right. That we don't want to. We don't want to do good in ways that are ineffective. You know, we don't want to send food to, uh, ethiopia that gets snarfed up by warlords instead of getting to the people we're starving, and I think that that is reasonable.

01:16:46 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That's. That's a good it sounds reasonable, but but the issues become pretty quickly. A lot of this is tied, then, to long termism. This is my test grail. The full string matters because, in long termism, nick Bostrom and Macaliff out of Oxford, for God's sakes, believe that there are 10 to the 58th potential human beings, both real and virtual, and we owe the obligation to them. Today not so much. So trust me to build that future and use this money, because I'm so damn smart I can build the machine that can destroy the earth. So you should also trust me to build that future and make sure we don't destroy the earth. Tie that in with utilitarianism and, importantly here, with eugenics, because they also believe that they're making a better human and that gets real dangerous real fast.

01:17:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't know if if it's fair to let Jeff define this Because he doesn't like these guys. So I'm going to go to effective altruismorg.

01:17:43 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Oh, okay.

01:17:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The official site and we, oh but Haskell the other slays.

01:17:47 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, bad guys, we're the good guys.

01:17:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We should focus on problems that are important, neglected and tractable.

01:17:53 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Now here's where it starts to get a little weird.

01:17:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We can do a lot of good with our careers. In other words, don't do charitable work, just make your work be altruistic. Now here's where it really gets weird. New technologies might threaten to wipe out life on earth, and reducing this risk might be a key priority. Mike, just Mike. And finally, and this is where it really goes off the rails Some sentient beings are ignored because they don't look like us or are far away. Oh, what are they talking about? Dolphins are aliens. What are they talking?

01:18:36 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
about Talk about. No, what they're talking about Talk about animals, Unborn human beings. It gets very much like abortion. No I think the 10 to the 58th Unborn human beings who are not represented. So we must represent them.

01:18:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think you're misrepresenting it, because when I click on the link, when I click on the link where they say this some sentient beings are ignored because they don't look like us or far away, it takes me to a page about factory farming. They're talking about chickens. They're talking about chickens. Just because they don't look like us doesn't mean we should make them suffer in factory farms. I can get behind that.

01:19:13 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Well, there's a whole line of EA which was about being nice to animals. There's a whole big animal figure. What's wrong with that? I'm like Sam Banquenfried left behind.

Well, sam Banquenfried, unfortunately, has tarnished the reputation of EA, completely Of these brilliant people, some of the things they have done is the against Malaria Foundation that's distributed 200 million mosquito nets. Oh, because they think that honest to God once, it's like Larry Summers says we should put our nuclear waste in Africa because they're going to die sooner anyway. Honest to God, he said that Larry Summers is a horrible human.

01:19:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think that the effective altruistic movement has to separate itself. Go away from Larry Summers and more towards the chickens. Okay, let's just move more towards the chickens. Yeah, I'll be honest with you, Jeff. The real problem is that capitalists will capitalist and they just are looking for any possible justification.

01:20:14 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That's what Emile Torres said to us and I want to plug this again because it was a good conversation. So on AI, inside it's on the internet we can put on the rundown where you can watch the full interview. Emile Torres said yeah, it's capitalism on steroids, it's the ultimate of capitalism. It's let me make as much money as possible and I will decide what to do with it, because I'm smarter than the rest.

01:20:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think they may have co-opted what was a good movement and co-opted it for their own evil plans. How about that?

01:20:45 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Nope, yeah. Well, I mean, this was a philosophy way before any of the billionaires.

01:20:51 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
It's utilitarianism.

01:20:52 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Yeah, exactly, so like yeah, it's just co-opted. I believe it was just co-opted yeah.

01:20:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Billionaires are just looking around. What can we use to justify raping and pillaging?

01:21:00 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Exactly they're rationalizing their billions.

01:21:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Here we go. Effective altruism, exactly, exactly. So it's a. Does it go way, way back? I mean, how old is it? Not that far back I think this is something.

01:21:12 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Wikipedia says it developed during the 2000s.

01:21:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The name was coined in 2011. Philosophers linked the movement Peter Singer, Toby Ord, William McCaskill.

01:21:22 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Yeah, the problem is that the lead guy got seduced by Silicon Valley and then he started going to those parties and started hanging out with them.

01:21:32 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So McCaskill and Bostrom are at Oxford. I pulled my death exit.

They are the philosopher kings of this movement, and what Taurus explains very well is Tascriel is in the order of where it started Started with transhumanism let's make better humans, let's put chips in our heads, then let's move out to the whole of the universe and take it over, because that's our responsibility to do that and rationalism and effective altruism and long-termism, which is the 10 to the 50 human beings. It's important to understand this stuff because it does create the basis for this. Paris, I would love to see you dig into this story because it's so wacky.

01:22:11 - Paris Martineau (Host)
One of my colleagues, recently published a piece on kind of the effective altruism movement. I need to read it so I can speak.

01:22:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The information is so damn good, you guys do so.

01:22:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You got a little bit of everything it is. It really is you?

01:22:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
really don't know what happened. You know what happened, you know what happened.

01:22:24 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
You know what happened, what this story made me subscribe that and $100 off.

01:22:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Jeff's scribe.

01:22:30 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Right right.

01:22:31 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Congratulations Sweet.

01:22:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's great, jeff, you could have just how about I give you my password, get into that call you were supposed to say it on the phone, oh the call Paris they moved the time. What's the call?

01:22:44 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I went in at 12.30, and then they moved it up to 12.

01:22:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What's what what? Call I didn't even know there was a call.

01:22:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)
We had a subscriber call on Monday to kind of do a brief on the open AI situation.

01:22:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, I would have listened to that. Oh shoot, yeah, yeah, oh, were you on the call?

01:23:00 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No, I was working.

01:23:01 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Busy writing the story.

01:23:02 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I was, I was busy writing 4,000 words as to what was going on, but you know, I heard it was good.

01:23:08 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
You guys are all over the story, so Paris two questions when did you start writing it and how often did you have to throw pieces of it out?

01:23:17 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Noon Eastern on Monday, we started writing in it and then, like a couple of hours in, I got my colleague Julia Black to join me. I was working first on Friday through Saturday evening, friday into Saturday midnight and then she was doing that to Monday. Where we were now, and I don't know. We were at first quite panicked. We're like oh, I think there's going to be a resolution of situation Monday, so you got to get this out quickly. But then as a time went on, we had it mostly done, probably like Tuesday morning. We're going to sit in it until something happened or maybe have it. We have a weekend section at the information. It's more like a magazine, so we're maybe going to hold it for then. But then when everything came to fruition last night, we were like we got to get this out now. We honestly didn't end up throwing that much out. I think we today, right before it published, we were like this is over 4,000 words. You got to cut some of the extra stuff.

01:24:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So we trimmed some extra detail then but you know, robert Moses, that book there was. It was so thick they couldn't bind it. The power broker, the book by Robert, yeah. So Robert Carroll had to get together with his editor, the famous what was his name? Like you, you just, he just he just Bob Gottlieb, Bob Gottlieb. And they had to cut out the equivalent of 100,000 words.

They had to cut out like a whole book out of the book Good gosh, because they couldn't bind it. And Gottlieb said famously there's a great movie about this, a documentary said famously yeah, it's phenomenal. He said so. Carol says, well, let's just make it two volumes. And Gottlieb says, bob, I don't think we it's going to be hard enough selling one book about Robert Moses.

I don't think we can sell two Article from Stephanie Palazzolo, anissa Gardege and Clay Clark and John Victor. Did I butcher their names? Gardege, you did good, gardege, yeah. What comes next for Sam Altman's open AI? I mean, maybe I'm maybe I've read too many mob or seen too many mob movies. Among the most immediate challenges will be determining the role of Ilya Skutskiver, the company's chief visionary scientist, and his allies on the company's AI safety team, who initially supported Altman's ouster. I could just see them, altman, coming into the room saying Ilya.

01:25:42 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
I was thinking that earlier.

01:25:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I did not. What did you do, man? I was thinking that earlier. That's why I asked who got to him.

01:25:51 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
You know. But then you said it was so-and-so it will be somebody that you trust Life.

01:25:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Look for somebody that you trust will come to you with the idea for this meet. I give it a week.

01:26:04 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean are people on the ground that said that he was suspiciously absent or conspicuously absent from the festivities last night when everyone was parting at the open AI office, which apparently got so rowdy that they had a smoke machine set up in the office or a fog machine and it set off a fire alarm, oh my God, and they had to go out in the street while firemen came in Nerds, nerds.

01:26:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Quickly right another scene for our we Were story.

01:26:30 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Like the guys with the burn eyes. You know, I tried to find this out.

01:26:34 - Paris Martineau (Host)
They were dancing outside, but I'm not sure whether or not there was a dance floor inside. I choose to believe that there was.

01:26:42 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Ms Paris, why would you show up To that party. I don't know.

01:26:47 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean, ostensibly he should be a shamed and embarrassed. Ostensibly he flipped over the weekend. It is now was working super hard to get Altman back, but I assume that he has to be in a weird place, To say the least.

01:27:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Now Almond says we need another hundred billion. No, he said that. Yeah, he says that company will need to raise as much as a hundred billion dollars Now. So same step, step up.

01:27:18 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
And after all we've learned, why would anyone trust any of these people with money or the future? They're all because I'll tell you why.

01:27:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
When you're an investor. Right, you got to remember. The people who are putting money into venture funds are fabulously wealthy already. Their problem is not the same as our problem. I could buy a CD and get 4%. I could buy some stocks. They can't take their money and just put it in the stock market. They need better investments and what they really need is high yield investments, high risk, high reward. So they're looking for the biggest upside.

01:27:54 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Why do you think?

01:27:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
people invested in Uber. Uber made a lot of sense. If you assume self-driving vehicles, you don't have to pay drivers. It's the upside. So what's the upside of an AGI? It's unlimited. So if you got a, you know I got a $5 million. I'm not doing anything with it. I already bought the yacht. I already bought the $27 million home in Russian Hill. Maybe I'll put a little money into open AI, because if they come up with AGI, then we're going to be rich Chasing that feeling. They need the big upside. That's the biggest upside. I think it's the biggest upside of them. All Beats them. All Beats everything.

01:28:32 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, all right. Well, here's another question why, why, why, why, why, why, why? So? Is it deep mind? Is it anthropic? Is it what makes you think that?

01:28:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's open AI.

01:28:42 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It's open AI but people don't let it really wipe it off, Especially after this weekend.

01:28:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
it's open AI. It's open AI Absolutely. I mean you got to pick one, or actually you don't. You put $5 million in every one of them. Maybe they do. Probably yeah, but diversified. If you had to pick one, I'd say open AI, right? Yeah, I like Claude.

01:29:01 - Ant Pruitt (Host)

01:29:02 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I love Craig Craig's even better.

01:29:05 - Speaker 6
You know, Guys, we got to found Craig we just leave him With AISC VC hit me up, by the way.

01:29:11 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I'm going to get a radio later for Craig saying fine, he did go on stage at a benefit talking about Craig GPT. Nice, we couldn't watch for 20 minutes and find him saying that, but he made a joke about being Craig GPT, so Craig. He already is on the way to being an agent, craig.

01:29:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Don't you think? Every VC, every startup CEO looking for their next thing, every entrepreneur is saying what can I do in AI?

01:29:36 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, what can I do? Oh, yes, oh God, yes, oh it's. They're harassing every employee.

01:29:41 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Yeah, it's funny you mentioned this. A couple months ago I got an email. Someone wanted to hire me for some photography services and I wasn't able to take it at the time and they were in town because they invest in AI ventures and they were visiting someone to take a look at some project and I was like, wow, that's got to be an interesting life to live. Are you doing this Just looking for? Okay, I need to find something with AI on it and invest in it and hope I hit it big.

01:30:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Have you tried Topaz, their new AI photo editor?

01:30:15 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Not the new one, but it's beautiful. It looks really cool.

01:30:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So this is a low res picture of an eagle and then you run it through it and it looks good. So I have a very low res picture of me as a Cub Scout. Okay, and I ran it through this thing, I'll get one. You upscaled it. Oh, I don't have one with that. I wish I brought it. Maybe it is an unknown. Oh, come on, you've got it.

01:30:34 - Paris Martineau (Host)
You can't start this sentence. You cannot have the Cub Scout picture it got my face just right.

01:30:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But it put a hand on my shoulder. I thought what's that? Oh, and it turns out the Cub Scout badge is so blurry that it thought maybe that's a hand. I don't know, I'll put a hand there. It tried. It tried. The tree, the leaves behind me on this rubber plant were like oh my God.

01:30:55 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So they're like Paris' plant that's going to eat through it. Yeah, take it over the whole part of it.

01:30:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't think I have it with me. I wish I did. It was kind of scary. But the thing is you look at it at first it's like, oh, that's good. Wow, that's what I looked like as a kid. And then you look at it All right as a club benefit.

01:31:10 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
You have to put that on the discord.

01:31:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'll put it in the discord when I get home. Yeah, yeah.

01:31:15 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Club twit guys. Get this exclusive content If you're not yet a member here's something really going to get you. You can see the spooky hand.

01:31:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Creepy AI pictures of Leo as a Cub Scout Could be yours for just $7 a month.

01:31:28 - Paris Martineau (Host)
The low, low price yeah.

01:31:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Actually the real price is $7 a month and it gets you the good feeling that you're helping out twit, which we really need right now. It is desperate, desperate times. But also you get ad-free versions of all the shows. You're basically your support replaces the advertisers, which is, for us, really a great win. You also get the discord. You get a lot more benefits If you will, please go to twittv, slash club twit $7 a month Less than a very poor coffee in Las Vegas. Trust me, I know.

01:32:07 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
And a hell of a lot cheaper than the information I can tell you. Yeah, that's true. Okay, look.

01:32:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We're not as good as the information.

01:32:13 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
We don't stake out Sam Altman's or some Count Pizza boxes. No, we're about it.

01:32:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, I don't know, I don't know. Let's say we're about a tenth as good as the information.

01:32:24 - Paris Martineau (Host)
We're definitely a lot funnier than the information. They're a lot weirder than the information and that is. That is the twit promise.

01:32:31 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Can the information take us over? Is there comedy arm? Oh God, I wish.

01:32:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The comedy arm of the information. I'd love that Twittv slash club twit.

Our show today brought to you. Actually, you know we run a forum. I call it a forum. Nowadays, discourse is so much more than a forum At twitcom community and we've been using discourse as the software for years. In fact, it's a server managed. This is where I wrote my opening statement, right Based on the show that you guys did on Sunday. This is really our comment section. We didn't want to use commenting on YouTube. I turned that off because it's just uncontrollable. Instead, every show gets an entry here and your comments are very much appreciated. There are lots of conversations about a lot of things. I'm not doing an ad for twit community. I'm doing an ad for the software it's running discourse.

Discourse is phenomenal. It made it so easy to create an online home for our community. You should do the same for yours. For over a decade, discourse has made it their mission to make the internet a better place for online communities. It's open source. That was really important to me. It's used by more than 20,000 online communities, including some of the largest companies in the world.

It was John O'Bacon who told me about it. He said you got. If you don't, you have a community. I said no. He said well you got to get discourse. He was absolutely right. D-i-s-c-o-u-r-s-e. Like discourse, like the word to talk with one another by harnessing the power of discussion. They have real-time chat. We haven't turned that on, but that's very cool. They have AI.

Discourse makes it easy to have meaningful conversations and collaborate with your community anytime, anywhere. And as the moderator, as the administrator of this discourse, let me tell you they make it as easy as possible to run it yourself. I basically run it with the help of one volunteer, paul. Thank you, paul. It's just the two of us and we run this very active, fascinating, wonderful community thanks to discourse.

If you're ready to create a community, visit discourseorg Slash. You'll get one month free on any self-service plan. Whether you're just starting out or want to take your community to the next level, there's a plan for you. If you've got a club or maybe just a big family, the basic plan is great for private, invite-only communities, a standard plan if you want unlimited members and a public presence. I think that's the one we're using. They do have business plans if a lot of companies use it for customer support. So if you want an active customer support community, you'll see this all the time.

Discourse is fantastic. There's John O himself community strategy comms Consultant and author of oh yeah, people powered that's. I was interviewing John about that book. He was absolutely right. There is nothing better than discourse. One of the biggest advantages to creating your own community with discourse is you own your own data, privacy's job one. You'll always have access to all your conversation history. They'll never sell your data to advertisers. It's really nice to have. This is our space, our place. Discourse Gives you everything you need in one place. Make discourse the online home for your community. We love it. I can tell you it's been great. Discourse Org slash twit. One month free and I'll self-serve plans. Discourse org Slash twit. We thank him so much for their support of this weekend, this week, in.

01:35:59 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Weekend test real. I Just so hate. I know you hate that word, I know you hate it. It's the.

01:36:06 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Scare just sounds great coming off your, off your tongue. It rolls off the tongue really, that's real oh.

01:36:15 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
It's does irony. Yeah, that's what she's doing allegedly, allegedly.

01:36:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We do have a lot more AI news deep. I'll just run through the headlines real quick, deep mind, which is Google right, releases a new music model. I still think we are a long way off from having AI generated music, but they're doing.

01:36:37 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
They're using their.

01:36:38 - Paris Martineau (Host)
They're they're using oh, but a gis around the corner Leah.

01:36:43 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Can't make up a theme song for cages face off.

01:36:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Some people can't sing. That doesn't mean they can't think. I Don't know.

01:36:57 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Not all of us are musicians. Have you seen X? There's a lot of people that can't think on that.

01:37:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That that same thing who's to say there, by the way, are you are, you musical Paris.

01:37:06 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Are you musical? No, I can't think either, though Right what did you?

01:37:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I bet you. You played the saxophone in high school.

01:37:19 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, I feel so uncomfortably seen.

01:37:26 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
There's a, so I played saxophone to it's okay.

01:37:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean listen, you know it's a beautiful instrument.

01:37:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's a great instrument. What did you do to it? But it'll break your heart, won't it Paris?

01:37:37 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It's true. You know, saxophone did things to me.

01:37:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, it'll break your heart, as you are about deep mind go ahead. Jeff.

01:37:47 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
They're. They're saying that they're gonna use their use of approved music and it's mainly to help two musicians, kind of just inspire them or YouTube tracks right, Because they're doing it on YouTube Listen to this, always looking for new ways to get. Inspired. I'm gonna take it down for this to create great music and share their work.

01:38:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Could they take us down for this? There's an ad shortly like that people you would think there, you, there, you all right, I'll stop. You don't want an ad? Google, you don't get an ad. This is yeah, I think they say it uses a model called Lyria or Lyria. It excels at generating high quality music with instrumentals and vocals.

There's a few examples below are there Okay, okay, this is an AI generated voice in this and the style of artist Charlie poof a Ballad. So this is the prompt about how Okay, this was the gong show. That would be it. This one is T pain, who is, of course, famous for Auto tune. Right, he introduced us to auto tune, yeah yeah dream track.

01:39:01 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Well, not really, but he brought it back. I'll say that.

01:39:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh really. So it was around. Throw it away. Who invented auto tune? Well, I'm tired and I'm tired as the company and Taurus and then it's share.

01:39:24 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
That made it popular with the hoodie. Oh, would you believe that was for like as a. Using auto tune as an effect as an effect.

01:39:36 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Hold on, miss a Benito, you got to go back to zap my man, zap my man. Come on, zap Roger and zap Computer love, oh, computer love yeah. Yeah, I go back to seven.

01:39:49 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Isn't that a digitally created voice that's not auto tuned?

01:39:54 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Well, you, let's listen a little bit. Why are you gonna get taken down? Why not to? A tube, we're gonna go for the.

01:39:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We're gonna go for the. It speaks into the tube, in the tube. Oh, it's one of those speaking to the tube. Things, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know invented that.

01:40:10 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
I don't, bob, hile Hiled it Bob. I'm really damn nation.

01:40:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, the man who invented these awesome microphones. He, he tells a story. I should really let him. You probably see it on one of our shows. But uh, peter Frampton's wife, mm-hmm, said I want to give Peter something lovely for his birthday. And Bob said I've got an idea. I'm gonna make a tube you put in your mouth and you play a guitar and it goes in a speaker, that goes in the tube, that goes in your mouth and then you do the mouth. Oh, wow, wow, the talk box into boss into the microphone.

01:40:48 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
It's all talk box.

01:40:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, and Peter loved it, couldn't put it down. Then Joe Walsh picked it up and it became big and big and bigger and hopefully there's.

01:40:55 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Roger and zap.

01:40:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Used it and the rest is history.

01:40:58 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Yeah, so that's not auto. That's not auto, yeah that's mouth, mouth tube. But like I'm using like it's auto tune and things like that, that made that. That's preparing us for AI music. Really, it is Is a year so originally out of tune.

01:41:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Was supposed to get out of the way and just take a pitchy artist and and put him on Pitch mm-hmm. But then shares it, do you?

01:41:23 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Famous cases of bad singers who used auto tune to get on pitch.

01:41:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All of them now, oh really have you ever seen like when the I Saw it on the Grammys a couple of years ago the the track went out and they had to sing and they were.

01:41:41 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Was it was a del, I think was like that what. Yeah, a lot of.

01:41:46 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I don't can actually think she can sing, but if you could sing the Cosby stills-nash and young with a close harmony man. They can well they can, but no man live without how you're kidding. Oh, oh yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, there's some, yeah, there's some bootlegs that tell you this this is Paris, this is a group at my and.

01:42:04 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I know, I know who they are.

01:42:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Ask your mother, paris.

01:42:11 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Like Bob Dylan, would have been better with auto tune, you know no, for sure.

01:42:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's why I like people like Bob Dylan and Tom waits. That's real singing.

01:42:23 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Metta really sound like they're about to cough something up.

01:42:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Big Joe and Phantom. Google is embedding in audible watermarks into its AI, oh, now, they tell me, into its AI generated music.

01:42:41 - Ant Pruitt (Host)

01:42:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Synth ID will be used to watermark audio from DeepMind's Lyria model, so it's possible to work out if Google's AI has been using the creation of a track.

01:42:52 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
And then they're gonna share revenue because this goes all over creation and this is gonna be, wow, a wonderful thing.

01:42:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Can we edit that earlier portion? Oh wow oh, just auto tune it so we'll recognize it actually this is in response to at least the verge says this. I think they're right. President Biden's executive order watermarking tools as a safeguard against the harms of Fade deep fakes. Yeah, which is a good thing if you, if you watermark it, at least we can say oh yeah, you know what that looks real or sounds real, but it's not but wasn't there a recent announcement from stability AI and Then using video, coming up with a new believe?

01:43:31 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
the video have you seen it? I didn't imagine that, okay.

01:43:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, stability, so last week we showed runway.

Yeah, stability. Yeah, last week we showed runway, this week the other big stable diffusion Folks, who are the, the ones that you could do in your own home, so to speak. Let me see if I can find that cuz I had. I did bookmark that I don't know where I put it. There were so many stories this week I can't find it. But yeah, there's. If you look at the. I probably just Google it. Yeah, stable diffusion video Some pretty is. You know. I think we're not far off from very good quality video.

01:44:15 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Artificial generally generated.

01:44:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Now this looks kind of fakey.

01:44:20 - Paris Martineau (Host)
There's a there's a robot would never sit in bed like that, like that. They don't need covers.

01:44:28 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
That black dude didn't blink one time. Yeah, no blinking.

01:44:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's two blue.

01:44:35 - Paris Martineau (Host)
We're the experts here.

01:44:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I could detect that ice dragon in the mountains, I think it's great. It's very real. It's great for illustration. Hey, they didn't need to fake the moon landing, they could have just generated this day. I right, it's true. Um but.

01:44:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I think never kiss.

01:44:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We're still in the kind of in that Uncanny Valley a little bit, but I think we're getting closer, surprisingly closer. Runway did some amazing stuff. Now Stability, and the thing about stable diffusion is you can run it on your own PC. Mm-hmm, you got the hardware. Yeah, speaking of AI, goot. Well, let's do this. Let's do the change lock. I got some AI. There's a change lock, yeah. Yeah, it's called this week in Google, you know, oh.

01:45:19 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Wait, really I'm on the wrong show.

01:45:23 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Join the wrong.

01:45:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, google meet Can now detect when you raise your hand. See if Sam Altman had just said hey, hey, wait a minute, call on me Talking. So the idea is, you know, usually you have a button that says I'd like to speak next. Now you can just go like that. Sure amazing, okay. Okay, you tell me that it's not.

01:45:53 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Just raise your hand.

01:45:57 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Thousand people who dedicated a year of their lives to this A little yellow hand shows up on the title.

01:46:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Bar Boy, I didn't. That's a good point. I didn't even think this is a big story and I think a little worrisome. Google has announced that starting in June of next year, they're gonna roll out manifest v3. This was very controversial because it would block some extensions. Now Google saying, well, that's for your safety, but among other things, the extensions that blocks our ad blockers. Well, they block Google ads. It won't block Google ads, it'll block the ad blockers that block Google ads.

01:46:47 - Paris Martineau (Host)
So you block, you block origin, which we use the thing that'll finally get me off, uh, google Chrome a lot of people are saying that, yeah, yeah, do you use an ad blocker now on Google Chrome? Yeah, I do. I don't even know what the name I use ghostry, ghostries, good.

01:47:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I love ghostry. Ghostry will probably not continue to work.

01:47:08 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It already doesn't work on YouTube, which right sucks.

01:47:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, that's the other story. If you use an ad blocker on YouTube I didn't, this is not happening to me, but people are reporting that you will get a five second delay in the launch of the video. Didn't know.

01:47:26 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Well, it's not even that. If you use an ad blocker on YouTube and Google Chrome, they won't let you use it. It says you have to turn off your ad blocker. Right?

01:47:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
never used to be the case, right and then, if you do, there are ad blockers that supposedly get around this and so the other Responses to slow things down. Some are saying it's not just the ad blocker. If you use Firefox on YouTube, it'll slow you down now, but Google said no. Google says no, and you know I pay for Google, for YouTube premium, and it's certainly instant load there. But let me go into a private window, right, then it wouldn't know that I'm a customer. It wouldn't. I wouldn't be logged in, right? Let's see.

01:48:07 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Well, I'm using brain yeah and. I use their shields up and it seems to play in. Okay for me.

01:48:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Let me just launch the next, the new mr Beast, because he only has 74 million views and I really need to help him out, mr Beast. I spent seven days buried live. See that played right away I'm getting an ad blocker.

01:48:28 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah so test, leo. You're the guy who decides what's intelligent, huh.

01:48:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No wait, slow down, because people were contending it was merely the fact that you weren't using crime in addition. But but at least in my experience, no. So anyway, I don't know. I don't know what the what the deal is, but I do know that v3 is coming in June. Google says so. Firefox says you know, the Google's excuse that it's more secure or more private just doesn't hold water. So does the EFF. Google EFF also says Google's lighter on resources argument doesn't doesn't hold water. So I think that manifest v3 is really probably all about On, you know, stopping the ad blockers, because that's Google's business. Is showing you those ads, right? Yeah, yeah, google maps. So I saw a tweet from a formal Google Maps person who says I don't like the new design, and the San Francisco Chronicle says the new look may frustrate California drivers. The old look is on the left. It had highways and freeways Standing out yellow against other roads. After the update they're gray.

01:49:47 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Just I used it today, and it was making a Whole swaths of property were green, which used to mean it was parkland, and then part of its green profits gray Just the land, for no reason. You can't figure out why it's suddenly green or gray, but do you have a problem in dark mode though.

01:50:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, what color? Of the highways of the yellow, I wouldn't know, dark mode looks good right now. Maybe this is all a way to get you to use dark mode right.

01:50:14 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, dark mode looks lovely.

01:50:17 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Impossible. That's all I've ever used and looks are you a dark mode hater? Yes.

01:50:22 - Paris Martineau (Host)
You like your eyes burning. Just give it a rest. This is right.

01:50:28 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
We say bless and have tea parties.

01:50:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah so I mean. Third-degree burn this is light mode and you see, yeah, they've gotten rid of the yellow that distinguished highways From byways. I guess that's what people? Are not liking, Okay it's not great.

01:50:47 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Let me go to?

01:50:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
let me go to dark mode, though, just add a curious.

01:50:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean, it's gray on gray, which isn't great, yeah, I.

01:50:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Can't figure out.

01:51:00 - Paris Martineau (Host)
The deep pause as you try to figure out. Okay, long touch on the brightness when you pull down the control center, aren't you then?

01:51:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, you're on an bottom left hand corner a long touch. Dark mode, dark mode. On there you go until sun rise. Okay, now let's go to the maps.

01:51:25 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
And it's still light, so We've spent way too much time on this night. It's afternoon out there, yeah, right, yeah.

01:51:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You need to change the settings in Google and here's a huge store, a huge story for Android users. You will still be a green bubble, but your green bubble will now be seen on the iPhone. Apple has announced next year, probably in response to the EU's Mark a DMA, the, the Digital Marketing Act, will start to support RCS, the rich communication system that Google's been flogging, actually trying to guilt Apple into Adopting for more than a year. Rcs is and, and encrypted, has a lot of the modern features that Apple's messages has. And then, finally, android users won't be kind of on parity With Apple users and be able to interoperate. Which is what the Digital Marketing Act is all about is Forcing companies that have a large market share to interoperate so that you aren't stuck. Google's wait go ahead.

01:52:36 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Is this going to mean like that You'll be able to be in group chats in the same way you would an iMessage, or you could do the little tap back reacts like a.

01:52:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yes, but well, you'll be a great bubble.

01:52:48 - Paris Martineau (Host)
That's fine, but it does remove one of my favorite pranks, which is having a Green bubble in like a green bubble group chat when you're an iPhone user, and then everybody likes their message, so they're just sent like 20 different messages.

01:53:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They, like Paris, liked your message. That's how Android handles this now is it repeats the entire message. I her message.

01:53:11 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, so, and Paris liked.

01:53:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I'm message, it's really right, that's not the only one sentence.

01:53:19 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Apple wasn't going to implement the entire protocol. What do they leave out? Do you know?

01:53:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, that's a good question. They're adding some features. For instance, apple will add the ability to drop a pin where you are using our CS. Google said, quote at they're happy to see Apple take their first step today by coming on board to embrace RCS, so they declare victory. Meanwhile, google will quote look forward to working with Apple to implement this on iOS in a way that works well for everyone. Yeah, good luck on that. Apple did say you'll have read receipts, high resolution images and videos. It's one thing Google remember in their ads were saying oh, you get blurry pictures, better group conversations, location sharing. Apple said it wants to work with a GSM Association which sets the standard for RCS to add strong encryption to the RCS specification. I think that's a that's a good thing and I think you can thank the EU for this. I don't think Apple would have done this if the EU hadn't forced them to. So good news for Android users.

01:54:27 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Thanks, eu, thank you.

01:54:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You and that's a simple pleasure a simple pleasure See how I smoothly incorporate your input into the show. I appreciate the impressive, isn't it? Actually we were talking about Claude Anthropics Claude. Now they kind of leapfrog chat, gpt. Remember, at the open AI developer day, sam Altman announced 128,000 tokens. Claude says we could do 200,000 tokens now, which is a lot. That's around 150,000 words or 500 pages of.

01:55:03 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I think a lot of people are gonna hedge their bets and start going to.

01:55:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Anthropics. We use Claude. Anthony loves Claude, yeah, but he Anthony's uses it all. I say I used it yesterday, yeah, and I showed you last week I'm really happy with with these GPT's that you can create with chat GPT and I also I tried to and I think I succeeded creating the same, roughly the same quality artificial expert Locally using some local software, downloading local models and adding the same training materials.

01:55:39 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
That's what I like about yours is you're in total control. Does not go to the cloud.

01:55:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I could be in an airplane offline and no information goes up to these, these other companies, which I think is it's good it worked. I just should say I was talking about it last week, but I actually was able to get it working Pretty well. That's good stuff. Paris now has her very own saxophone CD. We just want to. Tell everybody, it's a video. We did find it in the bargain bin for 99 cents.

01:56:13 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean that has to be a misprint. But you know, you guys gotta, you gotta join the club. You can get these exclusive releases.

01:56:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That was piece martin. Oh, soothing sounds for wiping on your first run at Raphael. Oh that's something. Is that a reference to something I should? Baldur's Gate or something? What is that? I have no idea.

01:56:35 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean, maybe it's. I guess, yeah, that could be a run for. That could be a Baldur's Gate 3 reference. Yeah, I mean they would make sense.

01:56:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm not gonna explain it because I think it would yeah, yeah, yeah, as with most musicians, you, you like to be a little cryptic.

01:56:51 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I do you know. I think it's really up to the audience to interpret. If I give a straight answer, then I'm really denying them creative control nice.

01:57:01 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Is there is there anything going on with Google and epic since that whole lawsuit? Arguing Google's done testifying, but I saw that, but then I also saw that Spotify was able to work a deal out with Google.

01:57:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yes, so that was that came out in the testimony that Google had made a pretty sweet deal Was Spotify, so why not take as big a cut there?

01:57:30 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Why not with epic? Hmm, good question.

01:57:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Good question I.

01:57:37 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Tried to bring a Google story to sir, is Sarah Silverman lost her?

01:57:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
lawsuit which one, oh, with the most of it, not all of it federal judge overseeing a lawsuit against AI art generators ruled. Well, he actually mocked. He did Shut up, siri. So Siri, siri. Intelligent the federal judge has dismissed most of Sarah Silverman's lawsuit against Meta Over the unauthorized use of her copyrighted books to train their AI. This is the second ruling from a court siding with AI firms on these Novel intellectual property questions, says the Hollywood reporter, which, by the way, is my legal go-to when it comes to court decisions all right.

I always want to know what the Hollywood reporter has to say. Us district judge Vince. Now this, this has to be a typo Chabria is. There are two inches of Chabria like Chia. I'm not touching that judge Vince Chachia on Monday offered a full-throated denial of the author's core theories. That met, as AI system is itself an infringing derivative work, made possible only by information extracted from copyrighted material. Judge Chachia said this is nonsensical.

01:59:07 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Nonsensical, you don't say that yeah, you say not yeah, that's not.

01:59:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Sensible. There is no way to understand the Lama models that that's met as LLM themselves, as recasting or as a recasting or adaptation of any of the plaintiff's books. So Chachia gave her lawyers a chance to replede the claim, along with five others that weren't allowed to advance. Meta did not move to dismiss the allegation of copying, which sounds like meta wants it to go on, because they would like a full and thorough. So they didn't ask for victory.

01:59:48 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, full, yeah, yeah. I Think this is why, by the way, google and open AI have announced that they you said this last week or before last, but I think it's even better Judgment that they're indemnifying because they think they're really gonna win right.

02:00:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You know what they should honestly? Yep, I think they should. I, I mean, I love Sarah Silverman. I'm not knocking her, but that's it. That's a fair use, that's a derivative work, yep, and nobody's gonna say, oh, I don't have, I read, I read the Meta summary of a bedwetter. I don't have to buy the book, I bought the book. It's worth getting to buy the book. I don't think it hurts her, her sales. No, although I have to say, speaking of court cases, elon Musk is is suing Media matters Because media matters pointed out not not incorrectly, and he's not even asserting that that, as for big companies showed up next to anti-semitic posting. I love, I love. Mike Maddix's headline.

He says the best. Congrats to Elon Musk. I didn't think you had it in you to file a lawsuit, this stupid, but you crazy bastard you did it. Here's it. Parts In this article seven problems. He says honestly, this feels like what you get when you have a rich but legally ignorant dude who announces on Friday There'll be a lawsuit on Monday, and finally find some terrible lawyers. We're actually willing to find something just to live up to this promise. He says it's not a good lawsuit, it's barely even a lawsuit, is all at all. In fact, as an example, one of the Defendants in the lawsuit is the media matters reporter who wrote the article, the, the, the. The. The suit says that media matters defamed Twitter, or X, or as I like to pronounce it, but then doesn't include a defamation claim.

It's defamatory, but doesn't in fact claim it.

After having said that it's true and in fact admits well, it is true, but you know they had to go to great lengths To make it happen. What were the great lengths? They had to follow a bunch of any semites and a bunch of brands and then, lo and behold, the ads showed up next to the anti-semitic posts. Eric Hananoke, who did the research and Wrote the article the lawsuit names him but never makes a single claim against him. It does mention, mostly in footnotes, that Hananoke has written articles critical of Musk. If you follow law first about the party, you have to say their name.

Well done. The lawsuit insists advertisers bailed because of this article, but conveniently leaves at the fact that the day before, elon endorsed an anti-semitic conspiracy theory that might have had something to do with it. Anyway, it's a terrible lawsuit. Oh, this is maybe the biggest problem it's filed in the wrong place. Yeah yeah, twitter, or X Twitter, is a Nevada corporate entity based in California. Media matters is based in DC. For some reason, they sued in Texas. Oh, it wasn't. For some reason. It's that this particular court doesn't have a slap and he slapped law. So. So the defendant can't come back and say, okay, now you owe me money for for a frivolous lawsuit, but there's no standing At all.

That's the problem you have to prove that somebody in this jurisdiction was injured. But none of them are in this jurisdiction. It says, uh, it, the complaint Mike writes doesn't make an effort to do any of that. It just says, quote a substantial part of the events giving rise to the claims occurred herein. Okay, uh, so the judge will throw it out, just for standing alone, probably, and not even anything else. But Uh, but Elon did what he said he was gonna do. He went thermonuclear, he filed the lawsuit. Uh, uh. Speaking of lawsuits, trump's truth social parent, does this scare you? As a member of the 5th estate, paris suing 20 media outlets for saying that it had lost money? So scared.

Lawyers for Trump media said in the lawsuit filed Monday in state court in Sarasota County, florida that no, that's, we didn't lose. 70. That's an utter Fabrication. And accused 20 news outlets of deliberate, malicious and coordinated attack against truth social, including the guardian and Reuters Um.

02:05:04 - Paris Martineau (Host)
This is what insurance is for yeah, and they're lawyers and they're lawyers yeah.

02:05:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think it seems to me in this country you cannot sue somebody for saying something you don't Journal, or a member of the press for saying something you don't like or take or kind of criticizing you in an article.

02:05:22 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Well, can you can sue someone for. Whether or not it's a valid and will Last in court longer than the judge can throw it out is the question, but Anyone could file a lawsuit, ostensibly.

02:05:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So apparently Reuters did make a mistake. Um, and and I guess everybody carried the Reuters story is probably what happened. Reuters says uh, we dispute in the allegations that we defamed truth social or intended to harm truth social. We corrected our mistake as soon as they made us aware of it, consistent with our uh trust principles.

02:05:59 - Paris Martineau (Host)
What was the mistake?

02:06:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Reuters and some other publications said they reached the wrong figure by incorrectly counting. A 50 million dollar profit for 2022 is a loss, so I mean, that's a pretty big mistake.

02:06:13 - Paris Martineau (Host)
That is a big mistake but they retracted it. That's not how libel works, you know especially.

02:06:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, you have to prove intent right, you have to prove malicious intent. A mistake is a mistake and a wanton disregard for the truth. Yes, yes, not just bad arithmetic.

02:06:31 - Paris Martineau (Host)
If they had shown their math, show your math. Perhaps.

02:06:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Here's a cornered variety. You were mentioning Spotify's new royalty model, mm-hmm and uh, I was missing in the deal they got the deal, they got with google. Well, this there is a new royalty model starting next year and I think this completely is completely reasonable. Tracks that earned less than a thousand streams within a year, no royalties for you. And those payments are so low and they're usually absorbed by the label Don't go off to the artist anyway.

02:07:10 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
It's all absorbed by the label.

02:07:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, well, that's true. Yeah, that's actually the truth, says benito. Who knows, because how much have you made on your, on your, on your music, on spotify?

02:07:21 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Oh, on spotify zero. I don't put my music on spot. Oh well, there you go.

02:07:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Uh, where do you put your music? Band camp, band camp put them. You know, one time in band camp Wrong show, oh yeah, involving a flute and a saxophone. According to spotifies loud and clear website, just 37.5 million tracks Out of the more than 100 million on spotify have surpassed a thousand streams. Just about a third, two thirds. Don't go more because of course not right yeah.

02:07:54 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, wait, wait, wait, wait, parents, parents, were you in the marching band too.

02:07:58 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No, I'm not that nerdy. I was in competitive theater and improv, oh wait a minute what's competitive?

02:08:05 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
but that's not nerdy. How do you see?

02:08:09 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean it's just a different type.

02:08:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Were you an intramural competitor or did you actually play in a league?

02:08:15 - Paris Martineau (Host)
varsity, varsity it is a thing called thespians, and you would, essentially you'd have a troop that represented from your high school and it was quite big in florida, I believe, like the biggest in the us and so you would go to district competitions and compete against all the other high schools in your district You'd get certain marks. If you got a high enough score, you could go to state and compete there. I, uh, I went to stay on a pantomime once.

02:08:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, let's see it.

02:08:53 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It was a Joan of Arc solo. It was a pantomime, but you could create a soundscape, for I did. I made people cry. Which is what got me to see I in a famous uh Wow battle was because at districts, if you get the highest of the highest ranks for your whole uh, for the whole pantomime like group you can come, you will be invited up on main stage to perform in front of the entire district. And I lost out by one point to a 16 person pantomime group. That was that formed their bodies to be a dragon and I was like this is unfair. I am one girl and you are a 16 person dragon, okay, I'm gonna do okay.

02:09:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm the flames. The flames are come on. Come on, joan, the flames are coming for you, you know you gotta you gotta, uh did you go like this, I was uh.

02:09:48 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No, I was tied to the tied to the state. You have to and the the Pistols are resist on. I had to emote that much more, but then at the end you kind of like see. Oh, no, no.

02:10:01 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Harris, your parents are right there. I know they have video of this.

02:10:05 - Paris Martineau (Host)
We listen, we are in no way finding that. I'm sure it exists.

02:10:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So cute that is. So it's so great. And the sad thing is, jeff, we were actually doing this show when she was in high school. Yeah, I know.

02:10:22 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Listen, we're not. We're not going to think too hard about that. Hmm.

02:10:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's amazing, wow, that Florida can even turn pantomime into a competitive sport. That's a real skill of.

02:10:40 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, it's so cut throughout Florida like, or at least this could be. I tried to find facts to back this up. I couldn't find any facts about the state by state Uh amount. But what we were told is that Florida is so competitive, we had, I think, like hundreds of more than a hundred thousand people, um, that would compete at state or try to get into it. So people who won state would never even go to nationals because they're like the competition is so much weaker.

02:11:06 - Ant Pruitt (Host)

02:11:08 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
So it's pitch perfect with no pitch.

02:11:10 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It's pitch perfect. But I mean they have all. I mean, pantomime was just one small part of it, the they'd have you know they're Shakespeare. Yeah, I mean solo musical acts. Dramatic monologues Uh, they have ones where you could write and perform one act, play anything theatrical.

02:11:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You think I'm going to encourage and let me say, pantomime, you're not doing a mime, you're not.

02:11:30 - Paris Martineau (Host)
White face and striped, no, it is like you'd have to design a soundscape for it which would be played.

02:11:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, that's an easy, silent and you have to act in it out. Yeah, is it broad or is it like real? Is it like you try to make it realistic or is it fairly broad?

02:11:47 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It depends. Yeah, you could do either.

02:11:48 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Yeah where's the mockumentary about this? I want it now. Oh, it'll be great. That's a great.

02:11:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Um. I have so many questions. Did you so you? Designed your own soundtrack? Did you use existing music or did you?

02:12:02 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I did use like also Different sound effects. Like I wouldn't I crack a lot of fire burning On.

02:12:11 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
You know we need Molly Shannon reenacted.

02:12:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think that no, I know we're being silly. I think that's super cool. I think that's great.

02:12:18 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
It is it actually is that's really fun.

02:12:20 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It's a great thing to do in high school.

02:12:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Be be respected and and I respect the competition Instead of just you know, like the kid, the nerdy kids and the football players get all the attention. Did, did. Did you have to wear your mind suit on game day or I think my mind suit was just clothes.

02:12:41 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Let her for this, no, but we should have, we should have I mean we had like t-shirts and stuff like that, but no jackets, which is a mistake.

02:12:50 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Looking back, oh man, I started the school play in garden city, london island, playing walter hollander, jewish caterer from newark, new jersey, in woody. Allons, don't break the water. Oh, what a great play, oh.

02:13:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Shared in white side, in the man who came to dinner, whoa in high school, and I have the first line of the play, which is you great dribbling cow.

02:13:20 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Said five pitches higher.

02:13:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Hey, knock it off, you great dribbling cow. No, I was in high school. I had it. My voice had changed. You have the touch of a sex star. You say that offstage and then you're in a wheelchair and you roll out in the wheelchair and the whole premise is your shirt, white side, who is a famed theater critic, but various serbic, who breaks his leg on the leaving this house after a lunch of this poor suburban woman and they have to put him up all winter and he's a terror. It's a great. It's a great play. The man who came to dinner.

02:14:05 - Paris Martineau (Host)
You took a break a leg a bit too serious.

02:14:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You could lick it up, anyway, spotify.

02:14:17 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I'm sorry I did that, but I'm not.

02:14:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
A thousand streams In a 12 month period is three bucks, so it ain't a lot of money. Nope that you're giving up. The other thing they changed, and this is interesting Apparently there are a lot of what they call functional tracks white noise, rain on a rooftop, environmental sounds and you will not make money On those unless somebody listens for two minutes or more. No payouts on five seconds, like people go oh, it really is rain on a roof, never mind, you don't get any money for that. The reason spotify is doing that Is because apparently, they have been paying out a lot of money to these and they said the new minimum will shift tens of millions of dollars a year into the royalty pool, so it could make a significant difference in the royalties.

What about the podcast platform? Or how is that? They've given up on that? I think they they really the only thing they make money on. Of course, joe Rogan right there, and as long as rogan stays they're gonna make money on it. But they, they fired the person in charge of podcasting. They shut down the podcast studios. Remember Megan? And uh, what are? What's his name? Harry the spare. We're gonna do a podcast series and they decided not to, and I think the obamas also had plans and they gave money and then they didn't do it.

02:15:38 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Who's your daddy calling me daddy or something other? Oh?

02:15:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
call her. Daddy has got this. That's a big one frosted. My what is it that gets frosted? A tooty. I was waiting for whatever my my giblets because she got 20 million dollars a year for three years For that podcast. Was that a good podcast? You listen, it's for women, it's not.

02:16:02 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No, I don't listen to. Yeah, I mean, maybe it's good, doesn't, doesn't, it doesn't frost my giblets which is, by the way, appropriate.

02:16:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Today, before Thanksgiving Many of you, in fact, might be you might consider this reminder to take your giblets out of the freezer?

02:16:17 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, because take your giblets out of the freezer, put some frosting on them, put them back in the freezer.

02:16:23 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
No, please do not.

02:16:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's time to defrost the giblets, because thanksgivings tomorrow. In fact, I think if you haven't started, it's probably too late. Paris, what are? What are you having for Thanksgiving tomorrow?

02:16:36 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Um. Our florida tradition is we deep fry a turkey in a bag of oil out there.

02:16:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is who does that who's?

02:16:44 - Paris Martineau (Host)
responsible. My dad does that. He's out in a chair by the turkey.

02:16:49 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
He's awesome.

02:16:49 - Paris Martineau (Host)
And uh, you know he's make sure it doesn't explode.

02:16:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You have seen stuffing. You have seen the deep fried turkey videos.

02:16:58 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, yes, I've seen all the videos and I stay far away from it because I am a nervous person and assume every year that is going to happen.

02:17:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Firefighters demonstrate why you shouldn't deep fry a turkey dad. Let's show this to dad.

02:17:15 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Basically the issue is he thinks of this as a challenge?

02:17:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So the key on this is to make sure that the oil does not overflow when you put the turkey in it.

02:17:26 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yep and does he put it? Make sure that your turkey is not frozen.

02:17:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Thought fully thawed right and dry. Yes, yeah, this. This looks horrific in the backyard. I think this would be kind of the end of Thanksgiving.

02:17:40 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It's a cone of fire. It's good, though, if it works incredible.

02:17:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So did, so. You do this every year every year.

02:17:48 - Paris Martineau (Host)
We've done it for a long period of time. Yeah, does he have a special?

02:17:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Um thing to put it in, or is it just a barrel?

02:17:57 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It's just like a. It's like a long stock pot.

02:18:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, you could buy, you could buy the thing yeah.

02:18:04 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It's sitting out in the garage right now, mm-hmm.

02:18:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So once a year this thing gets filled with like 20 gallons of western oil and uh and some pork. Turkey gets incinerated. Yeah, how long do you cook? It. Oh, it's quick, right, it's a great question.

02:18:20 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
No, I don't know it's close, it's a while.

02:18:23 - Paris Martineau (Host)
It's like a year. It's like a year, it's an hour or two, I don't know it's. It isn't that long because I know whenever the turkey goes in that we have to speed up the rest. Yeah, I guess pretty quick because it is a set period of time.

02:18:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And then what is it? You said you make right, you make the dressing, you make the stuffing, or as you call it yeah, I make dressing, yeah.

02:18:42 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I call it stuffing. It doesn't get stuffed inside the turkey because the turkey's deep fried and it's unhealthy to do that.

02:18:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You should always make the stuffing separately. You're not. You don't use stovetop, you make it from scratch.

02:18:54 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, I do it from scratch. Um, and it's delicious, but you're not really enough to dry your own bread cubes.

02:19:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You just go get the pepperage farm Bread.

02:19:04 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh no, I have. Uh, I this morning got up after I was done doing my open ai story, making sure the coffee is out, and I tore apart my french bread. And it's sitting on top of the oven right now drying out.

02:19:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh yeah, the whole, really all stuffing is is bread soaked in grease.

02:19:20 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yes, I mean yes, but there's other things, you know. There's the celery, first Selling.

02:19:27 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Anybody do oysters? Yes, oysters, really.

02:19:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's because oysters in stuff.

02:19:31 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh, it's disgusting. Oh, that's a great idea.

02:19:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
My grandmother did Italian dressing or stuffing, which includes Italian sausage and orange juice, which makes it moist and it's quite good.

02:19:44 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
And another difference she said a baguette, essentially. Yeah, we use corn.

02:19:48 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, cornbread, oh, cornbread is a good idea.

02:19:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It would fall apart, wouldn't it? No, they dry it out, that's the whole point.

02:19:55 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
You dry it out, yeah, then you bake it and all.

02:19:59 - Paris Martineau (Host)
God, I love cornbread.

02:20:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So, what else? What else is going to be on the table?

02:20:02 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Paris Um, mashed, potatoes mashed, but what kind of vegetable.

02:20:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is there a vegetable of any sort?

02:20:09 - Paris Martineau (Host)
There's definitely vegetables. You know I haven't asked that many questions. I think there's probably going to be cream spinach.

02:20:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think people are bringing things. Oh, you're gonna be.

02:20:20 - Paris Martineau (Host)
There's probably going to be some salads. How fun. Is there are there any traditions making pies right now. Do you all play?

02:20:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
jenga afterwards or anything. Are there any traditions?

02:20:31 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I don't think so. I mean, we have coffee afterwards. We'll probably get roped into a card game of some sort. Nice, I am.

02:20:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I am bringing a google chromecast Because we're going to a family member that doesn't have cable and there happen to be three not one, not two, but three football games, with the Niners game at the end, the capper, mm-hmm. So, and they don't have cable. So I have to bring the chromecast and set it up so we can watch football all day.

Um, yeah, football will be playing uncle Joe was gonna cook the turkey. He has a barrel cooker. He made out of an actual barrel. He makes and uh, they did an experimental one smart actually the last week, and it was basically turkey leather. It left it in a little too long so it got vetoed. It's like no, you're gonna make tri-tip and we're gonna get you know turkey breasts to cook that. What are you doing, ann? I bet you do a nice.

02:21:29 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Thanksgiving. I'm actually low-key in it this time because, quite frankly, I'm tired. Yeah, I've been a little busy, yeah, um, so I'm just gonna do a prime rib, I think prime rib is actually fantastic.

02:21:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Nobody wants turkey, it's pretty.

02:21:45 - Paris Martineau (Host)

02:21:45 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
I do a whole schmiel, you know A whole lot of food, but no, this is gonna be primal.

02:21:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I've been two taters and something green two years ago I got odokta's Macaroni and cheese recipe yeah, normally I do that.

02:21:59 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
I'm not doing that either.

02:22:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's a southern macaroni and cheese. It involves taking a chunk of cheddar and pushing it into the macaroni and lots of butter. I mean it's so cheesy, it was good. And then I thought, well, I'm gonna make two batches. I'm gonna make one with, uh, calabrian peppers, which gives it a nice little red specks throughout it, and one plain for the wooses, and that came out quite well.

02:22:24 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I came out, so I'm. I'm so American, I'm so heartland. I had to suffer through what was a tradition, which was green jello mold with cherries and cottage cheese.

02:22:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, oh, oh it was awful, that's so 50s, that's 50s.

02:22:41 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yes, oh yeah, that's what I grew up with. Yep, yikes.

02:22:45 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Well, we just want to wish you all a happy Thanksgiving from twig.

02:22:50 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)

02:22:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There we are the thick neck. I don't want to say anything, but I think that's a ladies pilgrim out.

02:23:01 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Wow, gizmo's there too. I love this gizmo. Is there, you kitty?

02:23:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
cat and you're holding uh a, uh, I'm holding a d20.

02:23:10 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, d a 20 sided dime no, that's the test, that's the uh tesseract.

02:23:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, that's, that's the oh.

02:23:18 - Lou Maresca (Announcement)
Don't say what that is. That's what that girl is. I'm not gonna say what she's holding that. I keep asking her what are you holding?

02:23:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What do you got? What is that?

02:23:23 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Can't tell you, she won't tell me, it's nothing there's something fun inside that.

02:23:27 - Ant Pruitt (Host)

02:23:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
By the way, I am a sorcerer, I found out.

02:23:33 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Great that's the one to be, I think it's we gotta we got a live stream balder skate Okay.

02:23:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Because I got a little farther. I found the switch behind the statue.

02:23:41 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Oh, that could be a great club.

02:23:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, that's, yeah, that'd be a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah.

02:23:46 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Have you found the grove Leo?

02:23:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
No, not yet.

02:23:50 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Okay, you are so far from the beginning of the game. I know.

02:23:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I know I can only do a little of the time. When do when it apparently there's sex in it, right?

02:24:01 - Paris Martineau (Host)
There's every character in, so horny.

02:24:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You can have sex with a bear, the. The whole idea video games is so you didn't have to think about sex Are ruining our society.

02:24:15 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
I tell you, you can have sex with a bear, that's, I mean the bear is a person, but it's a bear.

02:24:20 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, it's a bear.

02:24:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Gives a whole new meaning to bear naked. Oh my gosh, yep, okay. Well, there's our Thanksgiving episode.

02:24:29 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I hope you enjoy this. I'm sure the test real religion has something to say about having sex with bears. Yeah, Probably.

02:24:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is there I? There's so many stories in here, I, but we've gone two hours and more, so let me do the last ad. We'll get our picks of the week and if there's something that I missed, please Pipe in with it. After the ad our show today, brought to you by Vanta oh, I love this. A growing business likely means Well, a growing tool set right, more vendors, third-party vendors, more data sharing, and you know what that all means Way more risk.

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02:27:24 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Okay, now I get it. Earlier, when I saw this tweet Mr Howell showed it to me I was like what the heck is? Does he have any type of ties to the AI? I know he had some. He had some investments back in the days at TechCrunch. Some startups, mc Hammer, that is yeah. But now I get the message. Basically, you're saying look, people stood up, they were loyal, they stood up, yeah.

02:27:48 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I love that MC Hammer was following this.

02:27:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, it's just wild. Anything else, parents are suing gaming companies over video game addiction. Seems like we've heard this story before.

02:28:02 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Well, based on what you just mentioned in Baldur's Gate, yeah, she's not addicted that game's 18 plus yeah.

02:28:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And you're not addicted, you're having fun. No, I haven't played in a while. You could stop anytime. Yeah, the lawsuit says that Microsoft, epic Games, activision, blizzard, ea and others use quote patented designs, algorithms and marketing containing addictive features and technology leading to addiction. These designs and addictive features utilize data collection of miners, predatory monetization schemes and feedback loops to keep players more engaged.

02:28:38 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Sounds like social media to me. Yeah, this is the same thing. Sounds like a newspaper to me.

02:28:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Casey Dunn, the mother who filed the lawsuit on behalf of her child, said we never imagined when our son started playing video games that he would become so addicted that his education would severely suffer. He would lose all interest in spending time with his friends and turn to mime as a competitive activity Horror. These video game companies have targeted and taken advantage of kids, prioritizing their profit over all else. As a mom, I knew I had to do something to ensure they don't get away with destroying the well-being and futures of our children. Now this happens. I see this happen with kids all the time, but maybe the parents have something to say about it. Maybe there's other issues.

Or there's other issues.

02:29:26 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, that's the point. There are these kinds of obsessive behaviors and it is a problem. But to think that it's caused by the machine versus that's where it's.

02:29:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, they turn to the game, just as people turn to mime, because they have a deep inner hole Once they hit the saxophone.

02:29:43 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
you know they've got to choose not.

02:29:45 - Paris Martineau (Host)
We've got to lock those things up. Kids keep getting handed them, it ain't mime, it's pantomime.

02:29:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, big difference. Read a book, learn. You can't touch that.

02:29:58 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
And were you in the marching band or no, you were in football, so you couldn't be.

02:30:01 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
I actually I was part-time. I only marched in parade season because otherwise I was in a game. So yeah, I can march, but I was also in concert band and stuff too.

02:30:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What's the best? Is the Ohio State marching band the best marching band out?

02:30:19 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
there. No, that would be the Clemson South Cackle Lackey Tigers marching band is my favorite, but there's also LSU in Alabama. Their bands are really good. They take it seriously Really really, really good.

02:30:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I saw you know what was the video of the Clemson marching band. They come down a hill to get into the stadium.

02:30:40 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
The football team does the football team? Oh my God, it was wild. Yeah, it's the most exciting 25 seconds in college football.

02:30:47 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And they got and they have the. They have a law enforcement officer in front of them. He's running down the hill too. Our head coach runs down the hill.

02:30:56 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
It's a long, timeless tradition running down the hill.

02:31:01 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Oh man, has anyone ever?

02:31:02 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
trepped. I haven't seen that yet, but I've run down that hill and boy, it's dangerous it is All right, it's dangerous.

02:31:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Now we got to watch it because we got. We talked about it. Here it is. This is the hill. So why is it a hill going into the stadium?

02:31:17 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Well, back in the days the team had to make a change and come from that side, because they were losing and needed some extra motivation and they wanted to try to disturb some more energy and security opponent and say hey here comes the Tigers running down the hill into the valley, painting yourself orange Wasn't enough, here's the hill, by the way.

02:31:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This also because it's probably because the stadium is below ground level yeah. Down in a hole, because the same thing with Lambeau field it goes down. Let's get to it already.

02:31:46 - Paris Martineau (Host)

02:31:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Where's the hill?

02:31:47 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Where's the hill? This is it. Well, that is the rock they all touch the rock right, that's coming down the hill. That's from Death Valley, california.

02:31:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Why, what's the point? Oh, there's also a camera involved. All right, I'll get the hill.

02:31:58 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
I don't know what this is.

02:32:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I picked a bad one here's. Let's try this one. This is against.

02:32:06 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
That's a fan. This is at night.

02:32:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's the hill, it's pretty steep. It's like running down from you know the top of the stands to the bottom.

02:32:16 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
You can hurt yourself walking down that hill. That's the grade on it. It is.

02:32:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I would really really, really steep A closer, closer pick view of this.

02:32:25 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Gosh, do I need to Google this for you? Yeah, I don't, I'm Googled it but all I got is like most exciting 25 distance.

02:32:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So here they are coming in the bus and the police in front of them, and they're coming in. They're getting out of the bus, oh wait let's see. We'll see the right. So that's the coach running in from the bus, and then he comes down.

02:32:45 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
There's the rock.

02:32:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Why? Why from Death Valley? What makes that rock so special?

02:32:49 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
One of Coach Howard's assistant coaches was in California in a visit and brought back a rock. He put the rock at Coach Howard's door at his office. It was a door stop and then they decided, well, let's put it at the top of the hill, there's a good look charm, and have them rub the rock here they come.

02:33:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're rubbing the rock. Let's turn up the sound. 36 in a row wins. Here they come Flums and Tigers. Ladies and gentlemen, go forward about two seconds because the band has it got to the part, yet the band has to get to the. Oh, wait a minute, I want to see the cannon. The cannon's fun. It's a little carbide cannon. They roll it out. That's what attracted me to the whole. There it is, there's the can, and now they're running down. There's the Clumsy. Tigers. Here's the poor police officer has to run down.

02:33:36 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
He's skipping. It's a steep hill and the place come out there.

02:33:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So that was a tradition. That's pretty cool. Yep, they fire a cannon.

02:33:43 - Paris Martineau (Host)
They should make it a big slip and slide one time.

02:33:46 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
The best part, though, is that would be that's actually done at the end of the game. Miss Paris, the slip and slide of the muddy slip. Oh yeah, wow. The kids take cardboard and they slide down the hill.

02:33:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So you know, the thing that's cool about this is how seriously they take this sport right. This is life and death. It's religion, yeah.

02:34:07 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I mean it is life and death that helps you.

02:34:13 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Oh, look at the flag.

02:34:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is really it's pretty exciting.

02:34:16 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
That's college football folks, you don't get that over here.

02:34:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's pretty exciting. Although Fresno State is pretty close to when we were in, when we were in Wisconsin at Lambeau Field, we came. We got to come out of the tunnel. I hate you so much.

And they have rock from the old field. They have a rock that say every Bart Stars walked over this. You know curly Lambos walked over. Everybody walks over touches. And then they come out and it's fun because part of the tour is they play. The crowd sounds through loudspeakers as you're coming out of the tunnel. There's nobody in the stands but you hear them. It's pretty damn exciting, oh gosh you could see that that would get you pumped up.

02:34:51 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
I would be in tears. Yeah, I know it was a great experience.

02:34:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
If you ever get to go to Lambeau. It's where football began, I guess, or something. I don't know.

02:35:00 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
I love the cheese hits.

02:35:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Ladies and gentlemen, let us get our pick of the week from the wonderful saxophonist, well-known pantomimist mouthpiece and of course, as they call me star reporter for the information. Did you when you like? Did you, as a kid, watch like Superman and say, hey, lois Lane, that's the job for me?

02:35:23 - Paris Martineau (Host)
No, honestly, I didn't know I wanted to be a journalist until, like Parsway, through college.

02:35:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And then you said this is I was. Yeah, I mean no, I was.

02:35:31 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I was pre-med and I was one of the people who went into college and I was like I know exactly what I want to do. I want to be a psychiatrist. Oh nice, definitely the track for me. Yeah.

Don't. I don't like chemistry and biology is kind of boring. So I immediately was like actually this might not be the thing, and one of my friends was. We were like walking up the subway or something, and she turned back. She's like. You know, I always thought like you'd be a journalist or something and then I was like oh, isn't it funny, though, how easily you know, I did the same thing.

02:36:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Somebody said you ought to go to the campus radio stick because I was doing funny voices, and I did. And that one thing triggers something in you and it changes your life.

02:36:14 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I was the same way. I was going to go to law school and go into politics, imagine that. And said no, I don't. Three more years of college. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I looked around, I was on the college newspaper. So I said how about that?

02:36:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)

02:36:27 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Law school is my backup plan. I was like you know, if this journalism thing doesn't work out, I guess I could go to school again.

02:36:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You'd be a good lawyer. I feel like you'd be a good lawyer, you'd be a good lawyer.

02:36:35 - Paris Martineau (Host)
People tell me this similar skills.

02:36:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I guess the ability to take information synthesize it.

02:36:39 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
He got to say yes, your honor.

02:36:41 - Paris Martineau (Host)
That's the problem, this is the thing is I was recently called to jury duty. I was so excited. I was like I would be such a good person on a jury. They didn't even call me in. I sat in that room all day. They eventually dismissed me. In New York, because so many people go to jury duty, I have to wait another eight years to get a chance to be a jury.

02:36:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
What here? It can happen every year, and it often does.

02:37:03 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Oh boy, I got called for a federal jury.

02:37:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Did you ever see those dateline to catch a predator? Datelines where they set up a house and then they get some poor schmuck and they get an adult to pretend to be a kid and it ties them to the house and then the dateline anchors sitting there saying, hey, what are you doing? Come and visit a 13 year old, what's wrong with you? And then they arrest the guy. That was the trial. Oh boy, I was in and I'm sitting.

It was you would have loved this, paris, because you're. I mean, I'm watching the whole thing right, and they're showing video, and so we saw the whole prosecution case. We come back for the defense. I figured, well, this is going to be interesting. Yeah, because this poor, I felt like it was a little bit like the kid was serving in the army or something and it's an adult pretending to be a kid and it's very much entrapment. The judge says you're all dismissed. This was entrapment Period, we don't. The defense made a motion to dismiss. The judge said you're absolutely right, this is BS. Yeah, through it out. So I never got to, uh, to finish the trial, but it was really fun.

02:38:06 - Paris Martineau (Host)
You're right, it's super cool Of course you miss a lot of work Reading, uh, legal documents and complaints and stuff like that I think it would be great to be in a?

02:38:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
yeah, you know, I know so many people who try to get out of jury duty and I'm trying to get in, I mean that's the thing is, I know whenever I say this to my friends, they're like you would be in there.

02:38:24 - Paris Martineau (Host)
They'd be interviewing you for the jury and they'd see that you're excited and kick you out.

02:38:28 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
They don't want somebody excited about it. I haven't been summoned yet, thank goodness.

02:38:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Ever, Never, not yet. Lisa gets summoned every year.

02:38:38 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
LA law was on. That's how long ago this was. And I wrote a column and TV guide and I said to the judge, when I was called in front, I said I probably should tell you that I just wrote a column in a magazine with 25 million circulation saying that I hate all lawyers.

02:38:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, oh, oh boom, that got you out of there, I thought when I said I, because at the time I was on the radio and on TV I said I thought that I, if I said that I would be, they wouldn't want that. And I even said I said you know, your honor, I have to tell you. After the case is over, I'll probably talk about this I didn't, didn't bother them.

02:39:13 - Lou Maresca (Announcement)
I wasn't trying to get out, I just want to be honest.

02:39:14 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That's why we do it in public yeah.

02:39:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, and I. I just talked about it right Cause it's fascinating. Anyway, paris, your pick of the week.

02:39:23 - Paris Martineau (Host)
My pick of the week is speaking of sports and radio live caller interaction between Stephen A Smith and a man who calls in to try and ask him about lightning McQueen from cars.

02:39:39 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Oh man, I hadn't seen this.

02:39:41 - Paris Martineau (Host)
We should play, I love.

02:39:41 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Steven A Smith.

02:39:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is really, really good. Oh wait a minute, I gotta, I gotta get this all ready to go so we can hear it.

02:39:49 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Stephen A is great. So where did you, where did you see this? I don't even see it.

02:39:52 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I saw this on Twitter. I don't uh it's. I've got the link on, yeah.

02:39:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Here we go, I'm sorry. Yes, here we go.

02:40:00 - Speaker 6
You're ready. I was Stephen. A what's up, danny, talk to me.

02:40:04 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Stephen A Smith. Uh, when you think about the goat of sports, you think about Mike with sticks, brady with seven rings, but where do you rank a guy like lightning McQueen with seven piston cups?

02:40:18 - Speaker 6
I would tell you he wouldn't be the goat. How are you going to be the goat? Cause you talk about the movie cars, right? You talk about the movie cars, right. I mean when you talk about stripping enlightening McQueen. They're both tied with seven piston cups strip weathers. You've got about him. You got somebody that's tied with you. Sorry, there ain't no work. I know you tried to catch me with that. You didn't think I knew that. About that, you didn't think.

02:40:40 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I knew about cars, did you? When you think about, when you think about lightning McQueen, though, you got 28 circuits 28 circuits under the two. The two most will rate this.

02:40:48 - Speaker 6
Drip weathers has seven piston cups. I am not about to sit here and argue with a grown ass about the movie cars. Well, there's seven piston cups.

02:40:58 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
You should have brought me somebody that didn't have as many piston cups.

02:41:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Stephen. A Smith. Ladies and gentlemen, don't take a stand, stephen. We think you're very impressive. Is that ESPN Where's?

02:41:10 - Paris Martineau (Host)
where's? I think it's on his podcast. He has his own podcast.

02:41:13 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Of course, it's completely set up.

02:41:15 - Paris Martineau (Host)
He knew exactly who Paul was going to be, of course. But, still Fantastic, that's good stuff. Do you have any good say again?

02:41:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Production had the slides. Do you have any good? Say again, what am I?

02:41:26 - Paris Martineau (Host)
actually showing you.

02:41:30 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
He's cute, of course.

02:41:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's a kind of a giveaway, isn't it, benito? Always the great mind thinking always, benito would find it that fast he would. He said, I could actually probably would like.

02:41:42 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Fred on the whole stern.

02:41:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Show stuff up right away. Fred do it. And what about?

02:41:46 - Paris Martineau (Host)
have you had any good live callers?

02:41:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh God, all the time.

02:41:51 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Have you listened? On something we didn't. I listened to you on Sunday, but any that are particularly stand out, we don't screen and so you get just.

02:41:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, there was the one. In fact, it's on YouTube, you can watch it. The woman who called up said my wifi doesn't work anymore and it turns out. I said well, who's?

what's the name of your wifi? She says Link's this. I said who's your internet service product? She says Link's this. I said no, no, no, that's the name of the router. What's the name of the internet service? I don't know. I just joined Link's this and it works. I said that's your neighbor's wifi. You figured out that you were stealing it and they put a password on it. It's not working.

I don't understand Link's this, so that was one. And then there's always somebody who thinks you know that somebody's in their phone and their computer and they're spying on them. And all those are the legitimately crazy. How soon do you get rid of those? You know what's funny is I'm very, I feel, bad for that. I don't want to mock them, I don't want to feel I don't want to hang up on them. I try to very gently, kind of say you know that you're probably okay, I don't think they're, they're in there. If they're really determined that they are in there, I say I think you're going to be all right. Here's what you do, because you know I feel for them.

So I actually put your computer in the freezer and you're fine. Yeah, I'm not dismissive of them. Anyway, what's the latest on the basement eel guy, because I'm dying to know the?

02:43:19 - Paris Martineau (Host)
latest is the basement eel guy is doing well. Recently got some new fish. But I think along the same vines there's another character in the underground home, Tic-Toc universe, which is the Tic-Toc tunnel girl. Over the last year has been mining underneath her home. That seems like a bad idea. Creating a network of tunnels that is going to eventually be kind of like a bunker situation. Oh wow, but she has moved thousands of pounds of stone.

02:43:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
She's moving earth. You know, it's amazing actually how many people are building tunnels out of their homes. This seems to be almost a trend on Tic-Toc.

02:44:05 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
She's dressed up to do it.

02:44:06 - Paris Martineau (Host)
She's got a whole outfit. This is her life. She spent 50 grand building a tunnel underneath her home.

02:44:11 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Now I want to build a tunnel underneath my home, I think that's, or maybe under the hey, didn't I tell you, didn't I tell you, if he comes back building the bomb, shelter yeah.

02:44:21 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Listen, she's trying to. He's trying to set it up like it's something he thought of.

02:44:25 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
He's actually going to a cult meeting when the AGI comes.

02:44:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I will be prepared and you all will be laughing out of the other side of your rubber room. Yeah, I'm telling you, oh wow, I honestly think this is fascinating. There's quite a few people doing this and I just saw a tunnel to where I just saw a tweet from somebody who said of course he's building a tunnel. He's a man, All men are always building tunnels. I don't know what the context was, but I thought it was kind of interesting. Here's a woman building a tunnel. We do like to do.

02:45:01 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Listen, women can do it all.

02:45:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's right.

02:45:05 - Paris Martineau (Host)
They can own a lot of eels. They can do math.

02:45:07 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is just curious Is the woman who's doing this an engineer? Does she know what she's doing? Cause she is not an engineer. She had worry about undermining the home.

02:45:17 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I agree. I think that that's probably a concern, but it does seem like she's doing a lot of the work. Does she have a building permit? Yeah, I think so.

02:45:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's a whole NBC News article about this.

02:45:28 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I'm digging a tunnel under my arm, but you have trucks of dirt coming out. The neighbors are going to see it.

02:45:35 - Paris Martineau (Host)
They've got it. She's got to have a permit.

02:45:37 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
The neighbors are going to see it, but will?

02:45:38 - Leo Laporte (Host)
they talk. I was building a meth lab underneath a laundromat. I mean it's good, it's got ventilation.

02:45:45 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, and Jeff do you have any number for us.

02:45:51 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Well, I do. But first I want to say that LinkedIn just sent me a job request. But I'll just to God. I got to see. I saw this on LinkedIn. Yeah, A job posted four days ago. They think you'd be perfect for it. Media relations, corporate communications for open AI. Oh my God, Are you serious? And they want you to take it. Somebody else looked at it so I got it. It's a hundred ninety thousand to two hundred forty thousand dollars a year entry level.

02:46:16 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Yeah, wow.

02:46:18 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Oh my God, and you'd never get any sleep. No, I'd be, you know if.

02:46:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I were a PR professional, I would, I would, I would jump jump on that. I think it'd be a very interesting job.

02:46:31 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I mean, you're already how do you say that the earth is going to be?

02:46:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
the strong, you know just, it's just another company to lie for. I mean just.

02:46:38 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
I don't know what's the difference and they'll be cool if you're like hey, I made everything with AI man, so yeah.

02:46:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, that's true. Yeah, oh, that's got to be a problem. You hire these people and they don't bother writing anything, they just have chat, gpt yeah. And then if you say you didn't write this chat GPT, I'd say, well, I work for a band and I'm endorsing right here.

02:46:59 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
I'm dog food and baby.

02:47:02 - Paris Martineau (Host)
I'm the voice of the brand. The brand itself is the voice of the brand.

02:47:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They don't affect, why are you hiring a PR person?

02:47:11 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Someone's got to write the props.

02:47:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's really a prompt right there.

02:47:14 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That's what it is you got no, you got to take the reporters out to lunch. That's the problem, yeah. That's right. So my number, my actual number, is in my, in my anti moral panic moment. A new study from Oxford and elsewhere of 12,000 children in the United States between the ages of nine and 12 studied and had MRIs to study their brain development and found absolutely no correlation with screen time and brain development. All right, not hurt yeah.

02:47:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All right.

02:47:49 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
The kids.

02:47:51 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Did they look at their social development? I mean, they look at the question this was, this was okay. So their brain is shriveled.

02:47:59 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I have other studies that have that. Oh really, all right, psychographic associate, don't get me started. He said, my next book, the Americans we have a title, by the way the web we weave. Oh, I like. Why we must? Why we must reclaim the internet from bogals, misanthropes and moral panic.

02:48:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Can we rename this show web weavers? I'm looking for a new name this week in.

02:48:25 - Paris Martineau (Host)
Google. Someone in the discord suggested alphabet soup, which I think is kind of cute.

02:48:33 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Oh, that's nice. Yeah, oh, that's still a big tech weekly BTW between the weeks.

02:48:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I like big tech weekly. Big tech weekly Okay, that's good.

02:48:46 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
I like it.

02:48:47 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I like big tech weekly, that's are you really considering changing the name?

02:48:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's actually already a podcast called Alphabet Soup Darn it.

02:48:54 - Benito Gonzalez (Other)
Can it? Fit within the podcast of everything, so we can keep everything else the same. What is it? I guess we can keep everything else.

02:49:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, this is the branding, the branding guy Just not this week in Google, this week in general.

02:49:09 - Paris Martineau (Host)
This week in general.

02:49:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)

02:49:14 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Hammer B for the week.

02:49:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's it. That's the new name. Welcome to this week in general, not generals because, that's a different show entirely. That's the ritual. So, April, your pick of the week.

02:49:26 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
My pick of the week, Mr Micah Sargent and Mr Anthony Nielsen. They put together an outstanding review with the iPhone 15 Pro Max and it was all shot on iPhone and it is absolutely beautiful.

02:49:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You were waiting for our iPhone 15 review. Well, here's why it took so long. We shot it on an iPhone 15 and it's just beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. You should see the rig.

02:49:53 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Information. Oh my God, these guys did a good job on this.

02:49:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Anthony Nielsen and, by the way out, with his own dime bought this giant rig to do this. There we go, unbelievable.

02:50:08 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Nice Freakin.

02:50:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, it's just. By the way, even the pictures of the rig were shot on the iPhone. It's really, really cool. Yeah, of course, micah Sargent, the host, doing his review of the iPhone 15 Pro Max, and we shot it on an iPhone. Wow, check it out, that's pretty cool. Take that, marquez Brownlee.

02:50:34 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
My original pick was this update, but I added this. I added that hands on tech in because they go hand in hand. But Luma Fusion was updated because now you have the USB-C on the iPhone. Yeah, so now you can actually edit from a solid state drive if you plug it in via USB-C on your iPhone.

02:50:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So Luma Fusion, which is running on your iPhone or your iPad, can. Then you could shoot on your iPhone or iPad or anything onto a hard drive, plug the hard drive in and then edit it from the hard drive without copying it over, correct, that's a nice feature.

02:51:08 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
That's a very, very nice feature for editors on the go.

02:51:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Turn on external editing and this is a really good little program. I really like Luma Fusion. It's good, nice, good tip. Luma Fusion 411.

02:51:21 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Lastly, is this the bittersweet the high school football career is over. Oh no, lost last weekend. Take a round to play off. It's an unbelievable game 14-7. In the rain and to the most dreadful rain Bittersweet. I'm happy for the hard head, but it's it's. I hate that it's over because I just enjoyed watching them.

02:51:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They got, really far they got really far.

02:51:48 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Really good game. Great shot Start. Yeah, you're great, thank you. And I want to shout out Peak Design, because y'all see all that rain in those shots. Yeah, my backpack is a Peak Design backpack. Oh, it has a little shroud that you can't. I kept my video camera inside of my backpack because my video camera doesn't have the weather ceiling like my camera does and all of my stuff stay dry in that rain for two and a half hours so yeah, and how's he feeling.

02:52:16 - Paris Martineau (Host)
These are beautiful shots, thank you.

02:52:18 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
And such a good photographer. Thank you, he's, he's okay, he's, he's fine.

02:52:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is this his last year or has he got one more year? This is it.

02:52:27 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
So now it's on to college rehab and track season coming up. Oh, he's still running. So we got track season finished. Kid never quits. We got goals. Here's a four point. Oh, and we got the All Star game too. Thank you, tell the colleges.

02:52:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is a 4.0 superstar, great player, great track athlete, a great kid looking for a school to take him under their wing.

02:52:51 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
We've sent out some apps waiting to see if we can get accepted and all of that, but yeah, Well, he did a sweet, he's already got a few offers, Didn't he get a few offers? He just didn't want to. He's got one offer from and I don't really consider it an offer because it's from Navy and the way their scholarship works is you get your funding to attend a school and you got a cert. No, I think. Two. How many years? Just four. Yeah.

So that's, it's really not a scholarship. If you still end up serving. Yeah, you know is it the?

02:53:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Naval Academy. Yes, pretty good, huh, yeah, it ain't bad. Wow, I know. Yeah, it's pretty impressive.

02:53:31 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
But so he's declined that. But he's working on other stuff and track. But, like I say, we've already put out some college applications this week and going to go from there.

02:53:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Alright, jacob, we love you. We know you're going to do great star. You're a superstar and any college be so lucky to have him, because dad can't pay for it. Dad's broke, so will you please?

02:53:56 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
put up some money. College is expensive for everybody. Tell me about it.

02:54:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I know that's why you know kids go into such debt and you don't want Jacob to start his life with hundreds of thousands of dollars and I think you're that's why I like teaching at the state school.

02:54:13 - Ant Pruitt (Host)
Yeah, tech Dino Fresno State would be great, but they're flirting, that's all it is. I don't like the flirt, the flirt, it's all flirting.

02:54:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Come in, baby. I'm going to call Admiral Nimitz and say he's going to give you a better key. I'd do that. Yeah, Thank you for joining us this week. In general, every Wednesday, 2pm Pacific, 5pm, Eastern, 2200 UTC. If we we are.

So it's complicated and it's hard for me to describe we are streaming live on YouTube during the show. We don't do pre and post show, but just the show itself. Go to youtubecom slash twit and you'll see the live stream for all the shows when we are streaming it and that's when we are producing the show. There's no more reruns, no more interstitial stuff, just the shows. But you can watch them there. And in fact, if you, if you click that bell, I think it'll send you a notification when we go live, so that way you'll know. Oh, they're tuned on the cameras. Of course, most people watch after the fact because it's a podcast.

You can download this week in general from twittv slash twig. You're so smart. This is so good, Benito. Twittv slash twig. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast player. We like pocket casts. Subscribe and you'll get it automatically. There's even a YouTube channel this week in Google. We got to fix that at youtubecom. That's where the video also is. Thank you everybody for joining us. Don't forget the club. We love your club members and if you're not yet a member, twittv slash club twit $7 a month gets you ad free versions of all the shows. I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving and I will see you a week from yesterday. Two weeks from yesterday, that's very good I will be gone that week.

02:56:06 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I won't see you for two weeks. I won't see you for three weeks? Yeah, it'd be three for you, mr Jarvis, if that's the case I'll be here I'll be back for the old folks, the old folks, december 7th, yeah, don't forget.

02:56:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We're going to do our flying back from Vienna just for that. Oh, thank you Outstanding. You should do it in Vienna, you can have a little soccer tour.

02:56:25 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
to be snowing. You're doing it at five o'clock at night, eastern time. Yeah.

02:56:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
When you start. No, that ain't Eastern time, no Pacific time. It's 8 pm your time.

02:56:36 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
That's like one in the morning, yeah, no, no, you don't want that, it's an old fart no. I'm too old.

02:56:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Okay, well, december 7th Now, that's Club Members Only. It'll be aired December 24th, christmas Eve. It's our little Christmas Eve gift to you on that Sunday. I'm looking forward to it. Paris. Thank you so much for being on Twitter last Sunday, by the way. Really was great to have you on, so fun.

02:57:00 - Paris Martineau (Host)
There's lots of news to talk about.

02:57:02 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
Yeah, you reported so much today. Great work, paris.

02:57:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Great piece. Everybody should read her. Tiktok in on the information.

02:57:11 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
And I used my gift link to recommend the piece highly on all my social platforms.

02:57:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh perfect, so if you go to busmachinecom, or follow Jeff on Twitter or wherever else says Mastered on, you'll be. You'll see a link to the article there that you can read, because it's a gift link. Nice, nice. Thank you, jeff, for doing. I didn't even think of doing that because I am a bastard.

02:57:36 - Paris Martineau (Host)
You believe in the sanctity of the paywall. I think the paywall should stand.

02:57:40 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Thank you everybody for joining us. We'll see you next time on this Week in General. Bye-bye.

02:57:49 - Jeff Jarvis (Host)
I love it. I love it. I think it's a little beat is this week in general in general.

02:57:55 - Lou Maresca (Announcement)
Come join us on this Week in Enterprise Tech. Expert Coase and I talk about the enterprise world and we're joined by industry professionals and trailblazers like CEOs, cios, ctos, cisos every acronym role plus IT pros and marketeers. We talk about technology, software plus services, security you name it everything under the sun. You know what. I learned something each and every week and I bet you you will too. So definitely join us and, of course, check out the tweettv website and click on this Week in Enterprise Tech. Subscribe today.


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