This Week in Google 732, Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for Twig this week in Google. Aunt Pruitt is here. Well, he's actually not here. I sent him home, but he'll be on the show. Glenn Fleischmann's filling in for Jeff Jarvis. Jeff has the week off, but we have a big announcement from Jeff. We'll also talk about victory in Britain for Facebook Messenger and WhatsApp and Apple messages. We'll also talk about the end of the line for the Bored Apes Yacht Club. It's all coming up next on Twig

[00:00:30] This is Twig this week in Google. Episode 732 recorded Wednesday, September 6th, 2023, unidentified Flying Skellington. This episode of this week in Google is brought to you by FastMail, reclaim your privacy, [00:01:00] boost productivity, and make email yours with FastMail. Try it now free for 30 days at and buy Melissa more than 10,000 clients worldwide. Rely on Melissa for full spectrum data quality and ID verification software. Make sure your customer contact data is up to date. Get started today with 1000 records clean for free at

[00:01:30] It's time for Twig this week in Google the show. We cover the latest news from Google and everywhere else in the world. It's really, I'll be fair, it's the internet show, the show. We cover the world out there. Jeff Jarvis has the week off. I will tell you why in a moment. But joining us in Jeff's place, the wonderful Glenn Fleischman from Hi Glenn. Hello. Hello. How's everybody? I am wonderful and I appreciate your [00:02:00] patience. We're starting a little late because I threw Ann out of the studio, aunt Pruitt's also here, our community manager at Discord, and he said, I have a scratchy throat, and I said, goodbye. Goodbye. Because I am going to be leaving on Sunday to go move my mom into a assisted living facility and I didn't want to bring any germs back with me, but Anne has officially approved the We are good to go. Fancy aunt. That's so good. Joe. [00:02:30] Joe Esposito and our club twit makes stickers as we proceed. It's kind of a new thing I've seen. Tom Merritt does this with his daily tech news show. Sometimes he'll have Len Peralta sketch a cartoon as they're going, but I don't think there's anybody has stickers. Nobody's got stickers on the fly like this. Yeah, the king of on the fly. Thank you, Joe. This is on the fly. And sir, I got to tell you, when people ask me about this week in

Ant Pruitt (00:02:58):
Google, I tell [00:03:00] 'em it's a show about big tech

Leo Laporte (00:03:02):
That's actually probably accurate. It is big tech and there is a lot of big tech news. We'll go to England for the first story. Britain, well, I don't know if this is an optimistic headline or not. Wired magazine says Britain admits defeat in controversial fight to break encryption. You remember, we've been talking about this for weeks, the online safety bill, which among other things required plain [00:03:30] text of all transmissions from all apps including WhatsApp, signal, Apple's, messages, signal and WhatsApp both said he passed this bill. We're out of here because it would essentially undermine end-to-end encryption. Government has admitted the spy clause in the online safety bill has been eliminated. The government has admitted that's because there is no technology that can do this without compromising user's [00:04:00] privacy. What's happened? It's

Glenn Fleishman (00:04:02):
Not eliminated though. Not eliminated, not enforced. This is the key point is it's still in the law, but they're claiming they're not going to enforce it because they gave up and they don't, I mean this is an ongoing thing, right? Is people in government who are not well-informed, believe there's a magic golden key that technologists are hiding from them that would let them have their cake and eat it too. Either that they pretend that they think that exists and they said uncle, but [00:04:30] it's still in the law. There's a lot of people on the privacy and security side saying, great that they're not enforcing this. But until it's actually the legislation would be revised and it was removed, it's an ongoing threat that could be invoked at any point and the UK could try to pull something out of its back pocket and push it.

Ant Pruitt (00:04:48):
When it comes to encryption in our government agencies sort of acting like they're totally against it, is it only because of they feel like it's a way of helping to catch law [00:05:00] people breaking the law before it really happens in the thing as usual,

Leo Laporte (00:05:04):
They're bringing up C S A in this context saying, well, how are we supposed to know if people are trading child sexual abuse material if we can't see every gosh darn message?

Glenn Fleishman (00:05:14):
Although it turns out that a lot of the people engaged in Csam turned out to be as one might not be surprised by it turned out to be incredibly bad at security. And you keep reading these stories every few months is a story that comes out. There was one just several months ago I remember where nobody involved was taking, thank [00:05:30] goodness. I mean this is a positive. Nobody involved was doing even the basics of any kind of information hygiene or security. So international law enforcement tracked them down and arrested dozens of people. It was easy to convict them. I mean, that's what the idea is that being able to snoop on encrypted communications that people think is private would somehow replace good police work when in the end it's almost always good police work that actually produces a result in these kinds of cases.

Leo Laporte (00:06:00):
[00:06:00] And that's an interesting thing to keep in mind when you hear about these stories because we were talking about this yesterday because Apple is in the news with this subject as well, and Alex Lindsay asserted, and he might be right, that whenever you hear anybody, England, Australia, anybody in the five eyes asking for this, it isn't really about child sexual abuse material. It isn't even really about terrorism. Those are the two paper tigers, [00:06:30] the straw men that they raise. It's the American N S A pushing them because law enforcement in America, especially the National Security Administration, does not like it that they can't see everything. The N S A has this big facility where they've been collecting all the electronic transmissions all along for the last decade and storing it. And for two reasons. One, someday they hope maybe with quantum encryption technology they'd be able to break it. [00:07:00] And two, frankly, the metadata is extremely valuable as well. And so this is that whole thing of going dark. And I remember talking to Phil Zimmerman of p g PGP fame about this, and he said, it's not an issue of going dark. He said, law enforcement thanks to digital technology has a beautiful four K view of all the things that are going on. There are a couple of dark pixels and it offends them that they have a couple of dark

Glenn Fleishman (00:07:30):
[00:07:30] Pixels. That's

Leo Laporte (00:07:31):
Great analogy, and that's a much better analogy. It's not going dark. They have more information than ever before.

Glenn Fleishman (00:07:38):
Yeah, because most of what they're doing is connecting people. They have to connect the dots and the encrypted information, the stuff that they can't get at. It may be helpful to them to build a case or to find more participants. But here's the thing. I remember years ago, my friend Steve Manus was laughing about digital rights management on books because he said, in order to read a book, you have to be able to look at the [00:08:00] word. So no matter what kind of D r m they put in a book in any device. If you can read it, you can scan it. If you can scan it, you can O C r it.

Leo Laporte (00:08:08):
The analog hole we call

Glenn Fleishman (00:08:09):
That. Right? The analog hole. And it's like if I can look at something. So the whole to all encrypted communications is that people view it. And now while I would also prefer that governments release information about exploits that could affect people on a massive scale, which is a whole other debate. So instead of exploiting them, they actually patch them to improve all citizen security. I also see that governments [00:08:30] make use of exploits. They put in key loggers, they do all kinds of surveillance and other things that are legal or legal within certain countries, things that we might agree have a valid purpose. And when they do that, they can look at the unencrypted stuff when it comes in or they can grab the keys off that person's machine. They have so many tools at their disposal. It's the notion that there are secrets that will essentially prevent the worst people in the world from ever being found. The whole terrorists with the bomb [00:09:00] example, there's never been a case in which you could actually extract that encryption of a kind that would be covered by one of these laws and that could be retrieved, would've prevented an incident. That's not how it works. Human intelligence is the key. People have to move around and do things.

Ant Pruitt (00:09:16):
Is there anything governments can do that will allow its citizens to trust them ever again? A very deep [00:09:30] question. Great question. Yeah. I mean if we think back over these several decades of how we used to

Leo Laporte (00:09:36):
Trust the F b I remember

Ant Pruitt (00:09:38):
I was going to say, I'm going to speak for myself here. I'm not speaking for any of you, but I'll speak for myself. There's times I think back over several decades of things that I have learned and sort of just said, you know what? They're trying to take care of little old Aunt Pruitt and his family and they're doing what's in the best interest of Aunt Pruitt and his family. And then I look back and it's like, no, not really. This was more about [00:10:00] them and taking care of them and they could give a crap about me. So why should I trust them? Is there anything they can do for people like me and everybody else to get that trust back?

Glenn Fleishman (00:10:13):
Isn't it transparency? Isn't it being more open about the kinds of things they're doing and admitting when they're wrong? Because I mean, I have that same reaction as nine 11 was a terrible, terrible thing, but it was also a huge failure of the F B I and other [00:10:30] federal and international law enforcement groups to ignore signals. But it also showed we've been so lucky in the United States and many countries have been generally fairly lucky because we have had authorities like the F B I that have prevented and broken up terrorist networks, track them down. We've seen a lot of stuff since. So there's this thing about when you look at local police, the clearance rate on crimes, the actual number of crimes solved is relatively small kind of disheartening when you look at it. But when you look at the international picture, it's like what is the F B I doing? [00:11:00] It's finding weight supremacists who are making bombs. It's finding plots against governors. It's finding eco terrorists who planned to release a poison or something to cut down, burn a tree. Here in Seattle, we had vital botanical resources almost fully destroyed because of Ecoterrorism is concerned about fast-growing trees. So when they track down and prevent things like that, you're like, all that feels aligned with my interests. That feels reducing terror, reducing [00:11:30] the impact that, especially vulnerable people or things like that. So I dunno, that's

Leo Laporte (00:11:35):
The eyeopener, the ant that you've experienced. I think everybody now is kind of having that experience. And honestly, I think it's always been that way because government is made of people and people are kind of unreliable in this regard. This is true. I think as individuals, there are great law enforcement people who respect us [00:12:00] and our rights and want to protect us. That's why they got into law enforcement. But I think there are also bad apples. We know that. But I think also as institutions, there becomes an institutional pressure in the direction of let's complete our mission at the cost of everything else. And this is, I've been really thinking about this. I've mentioned this a bunch of times. I've been reading a book about Robert Moses, l b J, the same biographers done a great series on [00:12:30] L B J, which I read when I get time, I want to read that.

It's really good a couple times. The fundamental question is, do the ends ever justify the means? And this is my point, is that these institutions are looking at the ends. We want to keep people safe. We want to end child pornography, child abuse, trafficking, terrorism. These are all great ends. Our constitution directly addresses this saying, in pursuit of those ends, you may not do some of the things [00:13:00] that you might want to do. Like unreasonable search and seizure, a cruel and unusual punishment, both of which would work very well to achieving those ends. Nevertheless, despite the fact that the Constitution prohibits it, there's such institutional pressure from every institution including Congress to achieve these ends. And the problem is that they're willing to compromise the means. And this is where we really get in trouble. And I think this has happened from time immemorial [00:13:30] that people get focused on the goal.

So I'm giving them credit. I'm honoring 'em saying, yeah, I know you're trying to protect us. And this is where I a little bit disagree with you, Glen, because I don't think that they're dumb about the fact that there's no encryption technology that will do both things, protect our privacy and reveal the terrorists and the child pornographers. I don't think they're dumb about that. I think that they know that those things don't exist. [00:14:00] They're just willing to give up privacy to achieve these ends. And I don't think they're doing it out of a, I'm giving 'em a lot of credit, but I don't think they're doing it out of a bad spirit. I think they really want to do a good thing, but they just kind of lose sight of the fact that there's such a huge compromise there. We can't go down that road.

Glenn Fleishman (00:14:20):
I definitely agree with you. I think it's both sides. I think there are, you hear stories about technologists going behind closed doors and talking to politicians, politicians, they know.

Leo Laporte (00:14:29):
We tell [00:14:30] them over and over and over again,

Glenn Fleishman (00:14:32):
But they don't believe it. They're like, come on, there's got to be a way. There's a way to do everything. And they simply won't believe it then. And I think that's some percentage really just think, I mean, look at the distrust of experts. Oh, but I'm sorry. But I also agree with you. I think there are definitely, there's

Leo Laporte (00:14:46):

Glenn Fleishman (00:14:47):
Aspects of this, but think about the distrust of experts. If you're somebody who's trained in computer science, haven't been a programmer, haven't worked in math, cryptography, and someone says, no, there's no way to do this. And you're like, look, I know that you can tap phone calls. [00:15:00] Why can't you tap an Im chat? You're just telling me it can't be done because you don't want to do it. And I'm going to keep asking until I find someone who does. You definitely know that's going on too. But the UK situation to me seems like weirdly the first time that the only success there is, it seemed like they were going to go through this no matter what. They were going to impose this and it was going to be a problem. And then what happened? It seems like somebody blinked, even if it's, it's still [00:15:30] in law, it could still be enforced later. Whatever they said, we're not going to enforce it. And that is a big concession. After all the effort put into

Leo Laporte (00:15:37):
It. There's also, and I think this is appropriate for your situation as a black man, it's reasonable for you to say they, they're really not working in our interest. It's easier for a white member of Congress, a white male member of Congress to say, well, I'm not worried about my privacy. But if you're an underclass or if you're discriminated against, [00:16:00] you're the first people who are going to get hurt by this. And so that's the other side of it is Congress. And this is Parliament too in the UK may say, well, it's going to be fine. Don't worry. Our privacy will be fine. And there's probably will. And this was brought to my attention. I've always said, oh, come on, privacy. There's no such thing. I worry about it. People pointed out, that's a privileged point of view. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You don't have to worry about it.

[00:16:30] So there's a great piece I recommend from Benedict Evans. He published this last week when T says, no, Benedict is a smart guy. I think he used to work at Apple, he or maybe Microsoft. He's been in the tech industry for a long time. He's an analyst. Now, the tech industry always has a reason why any new laws or regulations are bad. Indeed. So does any industry, they always say that it's bad. You don't want this. The trouble is sometimes it's true. And some laws are or would [00:17:00] be disasters, which is it. So he talks about when an engineer says no, there's three reasons they say no, and he's talking specifically about this UK Investigatory Powers Act. He says, first, and this is the default. They're saying no because they just don't like it. Apple Signal WhatsApp, it's too much trouble. We don't want to do it.

No, they have their own right there, right? No, [00:17:30] and I think a lot of times we're aware of that. And so we might think, well, they're just saying, and the Congress critters might say that too. They're just saying no, because that's their default. They have their own opinion of how this should be done. They don't want outsiders making 'em change it. Apple, remember said about being forced to use type C charging on their next iPhone. We just don't want government to tell us what technologies to use. That's a bad policy, right? So that's an example. The second reason Ed Evans [00:18:00] goes on the tech industry or the doctors or the farmers might be saying no, is because this really will have some very serious negative consequences that you, Mr. Parliamentarian haven't understood. And he uses an example, this horrific law we passed in California, AB five, which put freelancers out. It basically ended, the intent was good. They wanted to protect Uber and Lyft drivers, so they get health insurance. But it ended up basically [00:18:30] making freelance work. And this, because you lost your job because of it, lost a

Glenn Fleishman (00:18:35):
Lot of money, was not happy about that, bro. Do you remember this California state legislator who was behind it who was incredibly strong pro-union voice and in the union aspect of things was terrific. And I'm not a Californian. I only know by hearsay. She on Twitter was such a rabid, nasty person. Oh, she was terrible. People brought up valid concerns. I mean, she's the example of she didn't, who says, [00:19:00] you're just making this up. You're trying to protect something. You're trying to block unions, whatever. The good news is the failure of AB five. There was a similar law trying to be passed in New Jersey around the same time, and the testimony there partly looking at California destroyed it. I wrote my Washington State, one of my senator from my district, because a law was being considered to be talked about. It went nowhere. So fortunately, AB Five's implosion saved the rest of us in other states. Thank you. And sorry.

Leo Laporte (00:19:30):
[00:19:30] Good. Well, and this may be the process, right? Is that we, I mean it's not a straight line. What does Martin Luther King say? The ark of the world bends towards justice, but it doesn't get there right away. Right?

Glenn Fleishman (00:19:44):
It's an arc. It's not

Leo Laporte (00:19:45):
Straight line. So there's the first two, one, we don't want to do it. Two, it's a bad idea. But three, and this is the one I think applies to the UK Investigatory Powers Act. We can't do it. We [00:20:00] actually cannot do it. And he says, Benedict Evans writes, the perennial example here, of course is encryption. For the last 25 years, engineers have said, we can make it secure or we can let law enforcement have access. But that means the Chinese can get into and politicians say, no, make it secure, but not for people we like.

Glenn Fleishman (00:20:22):
Coincidentally, you may have covered this door. Thank you. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:20:25):
That's all we asked. We've

Glenn Fleishman (00:20:26):
Covered the story in the last few days. Forgive me if you have, but the Apple [00:20:30] releasing that extensive reply about CS a scanning a few days ago, which was almost unheard of them to release a statement like that. I mean, was there a reply to an organization that has valid concerns them Heat initiative with Apple, whenever you bring up C S A, it's like what can you be but sympathetic and appalled? So of course, but Apple's response was exactly the right tone and just days before this UK thing, and you think when the largest company in the [00:21:00] world, I think as we speak says we cannot do this technological thing that we actually said we were going to do and we dropped our plans because of it. It really sucks a lot of air out of the room.

Leo Laporte (00:21:12):
Steve Gibson talked about it yesterday on security. Now Wired had this story and they had both the letter from Sarah Gardner at Heat Initiative and the response from Apple's director of Eric Newan, Schwan, [00:21:30] director of User Privacy and child Safety. And the key sentence in that long letter from Apple, we concluded it was not practically possible, not practically possible to implement with that ultimately imperiling the security and privacy of our users. And remember Apple proposed this two years ago and dropped it. Well get ready. I wrote the proposal because the HEAT initiative is spending $2 million and they are putting up websites. Here's their heat initiative website that it's [00:22:00] just as bad as the Sarah McLaughlin dogs are dying ad, right? Oh, these poor children. And it's right aimed at Apple. Apple child sexual abuse is stored on iCloud. Apple allows it. No.

Glenn Fleishman (00:22:13):
And Apple pointed out validly in that letter. I believe the HEAT initiative did some conflation. Is that css? A scanning is typically, it doesn't identify new instances of abuse. And we've also seen, Google is also the cautionary example too, by the way, is Google has had these well-publicized incidents [00:22:30] in which its CS a M monitoring system, its identification and reporting system has had some terrible abuses where people have the father or mother posting a picture of their child accidentally going into their Google Cloud photos.

Leo Laporte (00:22:47):
He lost his Google account. We reported on this. He completely

Glenn Fleishman (00:22:50):
Lost his because a doctor said, send me a picture.

Leo Laporte (00:22:52):
Even though long enforcement

Glenn Fleishman (00:22:54):

Leo Laporte (00:22:54):
Cleared him, right? Google just was not responsive.

Glenn Fleishman (00:22:57):
We've seen the abuses that can happen. You need an appeals [00:23:00] process even when it's in use. But the fact is the database, I've forgotten the name of the database that it's the

Leo Laporte (00:23:06):
NCMEC database, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. And it is hashes of known css, a material. But you're right. It's only what they've seen and know only

Glenn Fleishman (00:23:16):
Covers what's out there already of people and it's just as bad.

Leo Laporte (00:23:21):
And also, I think this is disingenuous. I don't know what the heat initiative's goal is here, but Apple does in fact remove CSS A from iCloud. In fact, they have some [00:23:30] case studies of people getting arrested for CSS csam on iCloud. Well, how do you think that guy got arrested for csam on iCloud? Apple reported him and Facebook reports him. What Apple was proposing was not that Apple was proposing something that would scan images on your device before they were uploaded. And Apple's reasonable conclusion was it's a slippery slope. Yeah, we could do this using the NCMEC database for C S A, but then governments like Saudi Arabia can come to us and say, [00:24:00] if you have any, you know what else is csam pictures of men kissing or China can come to Apple and say, you know what else is csam pictures of Winnie the Pooh? And Apple will now be in the position of saying, yeah, we have this technology. We have to follow the local laws. And now all of a sudden a lot of gay men in Saudi Arabia and dissidents in China are going to jail or worse,

Glenn Fleishman (00:24:26):
Who was just sentenced to death for

Leo Laporte (00:24:27):

Glenn Fleishman (00:24:28):
That someone like 10 [00:24:30] people saw it or something. This is what Apple's fighting against. But of course, I mean, I'm glad the dialogue's happening because it's very hard to say we should do less to protect the victimization of children because we're not saying that Apple's not saying that at, no one's saying that, but it's always phrased that it's the when did you stop beating your wife question. It's like that is not how you frame it. It's what can we do to protect children without violating in the 1e-05% [00:25:00] of images that relate to the victimization of children and abuse of children. Here's a question. How do we protect the other 99.999999% of images and people out there?

Leo Laporte (00:25:11):
Does law enforcement have sufficient tools and laws to get the job done? Now, are they really hobbled by these technologies?

Glenn Fleishman (00:25:22):
I don't see reports by when I read about child pornography rings or csam rings being shut [00:25:30] down or people investigated or you read the latest thing about occasionally a technology journalist being discovered with css, a material I never see in those stories. And this may be either the way the coverage is or how the organizations want to fight it. They never say, well, if we had more, we could find more people. It's usually, it's sometimes there's hundreds of police and other law enforcement officers sometimes around the world working on these cases diligently [00:26:00] with what seems to be a fairly high level of support sometimes for years, and maybe there's thousands and thousands of cases that are being ignored. But this is typically the same thing with sexual assault of adults is that the issue is often not resources, but it's finding people who care. And that doesn't get changed if you break through encryption or not. It doesn't get changed if you give more money. You have to be able to have people who actually actively want to investigate it.

Ant Pruitt (00:26:28):
I was just going to circle back to what you said [00:26:30] previously. It just boils down to effort and good old fashioned police work. We have tools in place and it takes a certain level of effort to make the most of the tools that you have in place.

Glenn Fleishman (00:26:42):
Did you see that whole thing? Where was it not in Croatia. I read this great story about how some law enforcement folks seeded an encrypted phone system that was actually completely controlled by them. Oh

Leo Laporte (00:26:55):
Yeah. And they able to, oh, that was us.

Glenn Fleishman (00:26:57):
Yeah. And I was like, that's good. I'm [00:27:00] like, give those folks involved in that all the kudos and there's no indication that couldn't be used. Again. It's not like they come and pick up your free football tickets and everyone gets arrested a bit. It's like you never know what's an encryption protocols. Although I do think that will still work today.

Leo Laporte (00:27:19):
Well, because crooks are dumb. I remember going to the Secret Service years ago. Patrick Norton and I talked to some secret service agents in DC and [00:27:30] they said, sure, it'd be nice if we could force you to give us your password, but usually we don't have to. Crooks will just give it to, we just ask them and they give it to us. That's true. So this was a great story. The F B I, this happened a couple of years ago, created a super secret encrypted phone system, and then they used one of their informants who was a well-known drug dealer to recommend it and got all [00:28:00] these trucks. It was called an omm, A N O M. They got all these criminal groups to promote it. Oh, you got it. You got to use an om. It's really good. And of course, law enforcement, the F B I and world law enforcement, including Italian organized crime and outlaw motorcycle gangs and drug trafficking organizations, all were infiltrated all over the world operation Trojan Shield because the crooks go, oh yeah, this is good stuff. [00:28:30] And of the F b I ended, Paul had complete access to it the whole time. It's hysterical. That's good police work. I'm like

Glenn Fleishman (00:28:39):
More of that,

Leo Laporte (00:28:40):
More of that.

Glenn Fleishman (00:28:42):
I just think it is. It's a people problem is people meet face-to-face. Usually people are taken down because they talk in an unencrypted phone call. They

Leo Laporte (00:28:51):
Need, every hacker gets busted. He ends up boasting about it, right? Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (00:28:56):
They spend money in the wrong place. It's just, I think with [00:29:00] the vast amount of ability track, I mean, I would love a counter example, but they'll never tell us is like, when did someone not get caught? Because,

Leo Laporte (00:29:08):
But we don't know something.

Glenn Fleishman (00:29:09):
We know. We know. They want to tell us, trust us. A great thing you want to hear from anybody is trust us. There's a thing we can't tell you any details about that proves the case we're making. I'm like, it's hard

Leo Laporte (00:29:19):
To, I think we're just going back to Benedict Evans. We're just saying excuse number three, you can't do it without giving a backdoor to bad guys. And [00:29:30] that's a bad policy. So I know it would be wonderful if we could catch every one of these horrific predators if we could stop every terrorist act. If we could make that every jaywalker was put in prison and stayed in prison, but wait, what?

Glenn Fleishman (00:29:47):
Hold on. Train went off the rails.

Leo Laporte (00:29:51):
But we can't do it without compromising our own privacy and safety. And that's important. And that's why the Constitution has the Fourth [00:30:00] Amendment and the Fifth Amendment. Now, England doesn't have our constitution, but I think it's in their common law as well, the principle that there should be some limits on what law enforcement can do. Yes, we want to eliminate crime, but only to the point where we're safer, not to the point where we're less safe. You could just throw us all in jail and there'd be no crime. Some

Glenn Fleishman (00:30:27):
People say, we already

Leo Laporte (00:30:28):
Are. [00:30:30] We should talk about that Twitter story. It's really pretty awful. Saudi Arabia had agents working at Twitter telling the Saudi Arabian government what dissidents were posting on Twitter. Apparently there's some evidence. Jack Dorsey and the Twitter management knew about these three Saudi agents. Eventually they admitted that and they got rid of him. They fired him. But after [00:31:00] Elon Musk, who's the number two investor in Twitter, owns billions of dollars of Twitter. It's the Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund. M B Ss. There's a reason Saudi Arabia put more than a billion dollars into Twitter. Right. And incidentally, Saudi citizens just been convicted of and given the death sentence because of tweets against M B Ss and the Saudi [00:31:30] King, Muhammad a Aldi, he's 54. He was accused of having two accounts, two accounts on Twitter with a total of 10 followers. Nevertheless, it was enough to the death sentence. Alright, I want to take a break. We'll talk about nice happy things.

Glenn Fleishman (00:31:54):
Yeah, that was

Leo Laporte (00:31:55):
Terrible. Isn't that sad, bro? It's sad that ones

Glenn Fleishman (00:31:58):
I, that's terrible. It's terrible because [00:32:00] I think, but it highlights,

Leo Laporte (00:32:03):
I honestly think Elon's completely cooperating with them and there's a lot of evidence that Jack Dorsey did as well.

Glenn Fleishman (00:32:10):
Yeah. Well, Elon wants to be in some of the worst markets in the world either because he wants to sell product in there or he wants to raise money from them.

Leo Laporte (00:32:19):
Right. Let's take a little break. We have a great show. I'll explain while why Jeff's not here in just a little bit. But first, I want to thank Glenn Fleischman. [00:32:30] It's always a pleasure to have you on, Glenn. I appreciate it. A pleasure to be on. Thank you. Glen fun. You can read his writing on six colors and other places. What else are you about?

Glenn Fleishman (00:32:40):
Six colors I've written for them in the past. Who

Leo Laporte (00:32:42):
Do you write for?

Glenn Fleishman (00:32:44):
Mac World. You find mostly at Mac World. And

Leo Laporte (00:32:45):
Also you've done a number of those little books that tell you take

Glenn Fleishman (00:32:49):
Control books. Take control. Yeah. I'm doing all the, we got apples coming out with all the revisions, so I'm taking new screen captures and finding all the little weird things in the [00:33:00] next release of iOS and Macs. I'll be able to do this and a thumb up sums up will pair on my Zoom screen or this, and it'll be like,

Leo Laporte (00:33:09):
That's a little weird. I'm not sure I want that I

Glenn Fleishman (00:33:13):
To turn that off, but

Leo Laporte (00:33:15):
So take control of iOS 17 and take control of Mac os Sonoma coming soon.

Glenn Fleishman (00:33:20):
Coming soon. I've got all kinds of books in that series. Take control

Leo Laporte (00:33:23):
Love those. Take control books. Also, shift Happens is any day now, right?

Glenn Fleishman (00:33:28):
Yeah, it's been [00:33:30] printed. We spent some very hot weeks or extra days'. Been about a hundred hours on press back in July. Had a great time. And it's weird because I forget if I already told this story previously, stop me. But I came back and my wife said, so it's all printed, right? And I was like, oh my God. It is printed. Yeah, it is printed. Because we were there. You're so attuned to what's going on. 300,000 sheets. They're printed now they

Leo Laporte (00:33:53):
Have to be bound.

Glenn Fleishman (00:33:55):
Yeah, up. It's my joke because I got up at 7:00 AM the other morning to [00:34:00] FaceTime with a book, which was our printers in Maine. It's such a huge project. There's a firm in Massachusetts that is doing all the bindings. It's 12,000 volumes. Volumes. It's too,

Leo Laporte (00:34:13):

Glenn Fleishman (00:34:14):
Oh, something happened. Your

Leo Laporte (00:34:16):
Wife just turned on the echo.

Glenn Fleishman (00:34:19):
No, that was me not

Leo Laporte (00:34:20):
Was that you? That was okay.

Glenn Fleishman (00:34:22):
Sorry about that. So it's 12,000 hardcover volumes, 6,000 sets and she's,

Leo Laporte (00:34:28):
It's 1200 pages.

Glenn Fleishman (00:34:30):
[00:34:30] Yeah. So there was 600

Leo Laporte (00:34:31):
Pages, if I'm not wrong. That's 144 million pages. No, I don't know what it's That's a great,

Glenn Fleishman (00:34:37):
So the binder said, our printer said, we're going to drive down and look at the first book that comes off the production line from the binder. Do you want to see it? We said, sure. So Marching's in the same time, zone me. I get up, get a cup of coffee, turn FaceTime on, and they're rotating a book. Here's what it looks like. Any problem saw? Yeah, this is great. But all the books have been sewn together. [00:35:00] They're gluing the covers

Leo Laporte (00:35:01):
On sewn signatures. This is not some cheap production. This is a lot

Glenn Fleishman (00:35:06):
Of glue. But yeah, it's kind. Usually you back a Kickstarter campaign. You're like even the best ones. There's things that can come up and it's like, we are so close, we can taste it and it's knock. I'm finding wood to knock. It's on schedule. It's on schedule to ship. Yay. Next

Leo Laporte (00:35:21):
Shift happens. Do site, is it too late to order? I think there's not too late

Glenn Fleishman (00:35:26):
Copy. Still some left,

Leo Laporte (00:35:28):
But not many disappearing. Don't [00:35:30] delay.

Glenn Fleishman (00:35:30):
We had to pick a number. We couldn't print an endless number. We're never going back up press to again it this morning.

Leo Laporte (00:35:36):
And you said you're starting work on another book?

Glenn Fleishman (00:35:39):
Oh yeah. I've got a lot of interest, as you know, in printing history, and I've combined it with an interest in comics history, and so I've got a new project called How Comics Were Made, how Comics Were Made, Inc, I n K. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:35:53):
Clever. I didn't know you could get that. Wow.

Glenn Fleishman (00:35:56):
Maybe it's for tattoos, but I got it for this. So I'm starting. [00:36:00] I basically brought the site up to start talking to people about it. I've been interviewing cartoonists. I've got a preliminary cover hired a designer.

Leo Laporte (00:36:09):
Oh, you're the guy to write this. That's fantastic.

Glenn Fleishman (00:36:12):
It's going to be fun. So it's all about all of the materials of how did artists work, get from their hands through to the printed page, and I've got so much wonderful material and access to some, I've already interviewed Lynn Johnston, who's the cartoonist Canadian cartoonist behind, for Better for Worse, that [00:36:30] ran for 40 years. Lovely person. She got on the phone with me. I've been talking to comics historian, been emailing with Gary Trudeau. I mean, this is, I'm trying to, you've been

Leo Laporte (00:36:38):
Emailing with Gary Trudeau.

Glenn Fleishman (00:36:41):
Look, I say, this is the interesting part. Nobody has ever told this particular weird aspect story. So when I write a cartoonist and I say, can I talk to you about this really strange thing and here's some photos, they're like, yeah, I'd love to talk about how I colored cartoons or what ink I used, or [00:37:00] Lynn Johnston, her first husband was a rural dentist. He flew, they lived, they moved to Northern Canada and he would fly around to do dental work up in the Northern Territories. And so she's like, we got in the plane and we flew to Buffalo where most of the comics sections were printed for a number of papers, and she met with the folks who did the color, including this fellow died young, who was instrumental. I've got his story to tell

Leo Laporte (00:37:29):
Why they're glad [00:37:30] to talk to you because you're not asking 'em about the process or the comments or the jokes. You're asking about how they physically were made and

Glenn Fleishman (00:37:38):
We're talking about inks and pens and color. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:37:40):
I bet they love this. That's great. It's

Glenn Fleishman (00:37:42):
Different. It's different. Did you read

Leo Laporte (00:37:44):
The article about Bill Waterton and the American Conservative about why he gave up?

Glenn Fleishman (00:37:50):
I'm not sure. Is it recent or was it back

Leo Laporte (00:37:51):
In? Yeah, it just came out. Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (00:37:53):
Oh, no, I don't know about that. Waterston

Leo Laporte (00:37:54):
Has a new book that's coming out. That's why I

Glenn Fleishman (00:37:56):
Knew about that.

Leo Laporte (00:37:58):
The American

Glenn Fleishman (00:37:59):
Conservative. No, I'm not read. I'm hoping [00:38:00] to get in touch with him because he put so much effort into the, I mean, he's such a great artist, such a great writer, and so intricately involved in the craft. I want to talk to him about the craft, like how he saw his work go to fruition. The book is really about that realization of vision, but I take my weird materials like flogs and printing plates and whatever. Those tell a beautiful story that's like, we think about that. The cartoonists are working at a board. You get a newspaper. [00:38:30] There's so many people and processes involved, and then it's all changed. The newer cartoonist, there's a woman, for instance, who does Breaking Cat news fun strip, and she just works in watercolor and they do color separations. But 20 years ago, people were still marking numbers in every color, and somebody in a studio at the Engravers was using Photoshop to fill in the colors like paint by number because that's would've been done in the metal days, and it was only really between 1990 and 2000 ish that [00:39:00] they transitioned out of that kind of paint by numbers thing in the digital era to this normal.

You scan it and you color separate it. Anyway, I keep finding wonderful material and wonderful people, and I'm just so excited. Very nerdy. So the book's not going to go to Kickstarter until February, but I kind of unleashed what I've got now to start getting people to sign up to announcement list and then to just put the word out

Leo Laporte (00:39:24):
Already. Joe Esposito has made a sticker to All Longs all the time. Yes. Behind.

Glenn Fleishman (00:39:30):
[00:39:30] So it'll be fun. And this is my love of technology too. It doesn't matter if the technology is 1895 or 2099.

Leo Laporte (00:39:38):
Yeah. Aunt Pruitt also great to have you. Thank you once again for allowing me to throw you out of the studio so I don't get sick, but I am sure you're fine. I was just being paranoid, but we always want to have you, you're

Ant Pruitt (00:39:51):
Not being paranoid. You're being cautious. You want to go see your

Leo Laporte (00:39:55):
Mother of my mom. If it were just me, I'd say Breathe on me, kiss me, lick me. I don't [00:40:00] care, but I don't want to get my mom's. She's Nike,

Ant Pruitt (00:40:04):
Not getting that close.

Leo Laporte (00:40:05):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. What happens at the ttw Christmas party stays at the TTW Christmas

Ant Pruitt (00:40:11):
Party right now. You get it now, you

Leo Laporte (00:40:14):
Get it. Our show today brought to you by, Ooh, I love it. Fast mail. Look, I've said this so many times over the last 15 years. If email is important to you as an individual or even more important to you as a business, why [00:40:30] are you using free email where you are not the customer, you are the product. You need Fast mail. I switched to Fast Mail more than 10 years ago, and I am not looking back. I love it. Make email work for you, not on you with fast mail. No, because you're paying them. Admittedly, it's not free as little as $3 a month. It's not expensive either, but because of that, you're the customer. They have real support people who will really help [00:41:00] you. They have great service, great products, and no ads, no tracking. Just email the way you need it. And one of the things I love about FastMail, they make it very easy to use your own domain name at FastMail.

In fact, I use FastMail for the d n s for almost all of my domain names, more than a dozen. That way I can receive email at those domain names. I'll give you one of them is laport email. Well, I can make it be anything at laport email, [00:41:30] so every time I sign up for something new, it's Verizon at LaPorte email or That way each of them has a unique address, and actually, I don't use so bad guys. Don't try to hack me, and that's another advantage. If you're using Bit Warden, our sponsor or one password, you can use FastMail to generate unique email addresses. Every single site, every time you create a new password, you create a new email address that is a really nice feature.

[00:42:00] I can go on and on. I probably will. You can use FastMail with any email client, whatever client you're using, just install it and run FastMail. It almost always will auto configure. If not fast mails, get all the information you need to make it work with Outlook or Thunderbird Apple Mail, whatever you use. I use a lot of weird email clients. They all work great with FastMail because FastMail is real imap. In fact, they use the Open source Cyrus server and contribute [00:42:30] back to it. They are leaders in email technology. They've been doing this for a long time. You can also use their web version. I know a lot of you like if you're Gmail users, you like having your browser be your email client. FastMail has a much better, I think, web-based version, all sorts of nice features, colors, custom swipes, night mode, iOS and Android too.

In fact, that's the app I use on iOS for my email is FastMail. It's great. The quick settings means it's easy [00:43:00] to choose a new theme to switch between light and dark mode. Change my text size all without leaving the email screen. Quick settings is fantastic. The mass email addresses, you can auto save contacts. I do that. In fact, the spam filtering on FastMail is the best I've ever used, and because you can use S Civ, the SIV program to customize it, it is the most powerful I've ever used. For instance, if I respond to somebody's email, they're automatically added to my contact list, and I have a rule that if somebody's sending me [00:43:30] an email and they're in my contact list, they go to a special important folder. I know I know this person. It's a great way to not lose any email in the spam filters.

Keep track of everybody. I use filtering like crazy. You can pop images of your centers from external services. They use gravita and others. That's fantastic. Set default reminders for events. Oh, did I mention I also use FastMail for calendars as well as context as well as email. In fact, I replace Google with all three. It syncs with every device. [00:44:00] It's a fantastic Cal D and card D server. For over 20 years, FastMail has been a leader in email and email privacy because you're the customer, not the product. You got to get FastMail. I can go on and on. In fact, I often do. It's very easy to move over. Just reclaim your privacy, boost your productivity with FastMail. You can try it now free for 30 days at FastMail, F [00:44:30] A S T M A I've been recommending them for more than a decade. I'm glad I finally got 'em to sponsor our show. Thank you. I appreciate it. You use FastMail two an I didn't know that. Yeah, the

Glenn Fleishman (00:44:48):
Pricing, I think I paid like

Leo Laporte (00:44:49):
Five hours a month. Yeah, I think there's three. I can't remember what it is that

Glenn Fleishman (00:44:53):
I've been using them since most of the, for the last decade, at least for most the last 20 [00:45:00] years. Yeah, I have a long time.

Leo Laporte (00:45:02):
Yeah. People in the

Glenn Fleishman (00:45:03):
Know I'm happy to pay them.

Leo Laporte (00:45:04):
Yeah, no, that you got to pay for email. You can't use the free emails at Hotmail or Outlook or Gmail because you're just a product to them. You're not the customer. Yeah. FastMail really is good. Every real person like you, smart geeks like you guys that I've talked to says, oh yeah, FastMail. Of course, everybody knows

Glenn Fleishman (00:45:28):
FastMail love it. They even help you set up the, this is unsolicited. [00:45:30] They help you set up your mail, anti-spam records. They have a really neat little system. Somebody emailed me and said, oh, I'm a bug bounty person, and I found your records aren't set up right and for this domain you have and you should send me some money, and they weren't trying to shake me down and I went to fasta. I was like, Nope, that all checks out. It's all good. I dunno what they'll, the person's clearly created some kind of automated engine to see if anyone will

Leo Laporte (00:45:52):
Exactly pay. Exactly. I get that email all the time. Yeah, so let's pick, I don't know. I'll [00:46:00] use, I don't want to give away my super secret. Here we go. Here's one of the many domains I have registered there, Leo It says, your domain is correctly set up to send and receive email, but more importantly, it's set up to support all the email security features like D Im and what is Its sp. S P F. Yeah. I think, yeah, these are really fantastic.

Glenn Fleishman (00:46:27):
Email is the worst thing on the internet. The fact that it [00:46:30] still works, but you can still email over at a company. I do freelance work for that. I will not be named. They somehow got blacklisted by,

Leo Laporte (00:46:39):
Oh, that's bad Gmail. If you get in one of those black holes, that's terrible

Glenn Fleishman (00:46:43):
For no good reason and there's nobody you can talk to, and it was an entire corporation of which the group I was working for was a very small part, and they were wrestling with it for, I think it just finally broke the blockade, but the fact that I remember writing in the nineties, I was writing articles about email is going to become balkanized and servers will not [00:47:00] accept email from other servers, and it'll wind up being all these fiefdoms of email.

Leo Laporte (00:47:04):
Gmail is among the worst of those Gmail rejects email, and I understand why there's a huge amount of spam going through it, but

Glenn Fleishman (00:47:12):
It doesn't matter how many times, if you're a Gmail user, you could email, I could email an every day for the last 15 years and then he'll send a message to go into spam. For some reason you're like, why?

Leo Laporte (00:47:22):
That's the

Glenn Fleishman (00:47:23):
Opposite of intelligence. What's going

Leo Laporte (00:47:25):

Glenn Fleishman (00:47:27):
I'll sign for emailing you every day for the last 15

Leo Laporte (00:47:29):
Years. [00:47:30] That's a

Glenn Fleishman (00:47:31):
Whole other story.

Leo Laporte (00:47:32):
Oh, you have what's on, so let's talk about Jeff, because people are wondering, where's Jeff Jarvis? Actually, I don't know where he is today. I think he was, did he say, is he traveling? I can't remember. I can't

Glenn Fleishman (00:47:42):
Remember where he said he was traveling, but Travel's closed.

Leo Laporte (00:47:45):
It's probably a coincidence, but today on Medium, he's actually a story today. He posted Moving on. I'm leaving CUNY's Newmark graduate School of journalism at the end of this term. Can you play the Greg Newmark [00:48:00] chorus? Play it, got to have it one last time. Oh, I don't know. Venito doesn't have it stacked. I don't know how Craig's going to get his plugs, but we'll find a way. Technically, he says, I'm retiring though. If you know me, I know you know. I will never retire. I'm looking at some things to do next. One of which of course is host our AI show with Jason Howell. Yeah, we're doing it right now in the club, and it'll emerge at some point. He has a great [00:48:30] medium piece though about his 18 years at cuny, which is really remarkable. I mean, that's a long time and a lot of students who got Jeff as a journalism professor, and it's pretty impressive.

He did a lot of great work there, and so I know a little bit about what Jeff's going to be doing, but I guess I'm sworn to secrecy. Stay tuned, and I think he will be back next week, and so will Kathy Giles, our favorite [00:49:00] Supreme Court admitted lawyer who will I'm sure have some stuff to talk about in the new October court docket is coming up in speaking of court in Australia. They've decided an all not to force adult websites to do age verification. This is something many states in the US have started to do. In fact, a judge just knocked down one of the states. Was it Texas? Texas, yeah. Yeah. [00:49:30] Judge strikes down porn age verification law in Texas saying it's a violation of the First Amendment. It's not even am not particularly worried about that. It's just a ridiculous idea from a privacy point of view. Yeah. What I have to give you my government idea so I can watch porn. Oh, what could possibly go wrong

Glenn Fleishman (00:49:54):
To a private company? Right. You don't give it to the government. A, you don't want to give it to the government. B, you want to give it to a porn company [00:50:00] because they're very good at security. Clearly. What was the breach? Wasn't there some huge

Leo Laporte (00:50:05):
Oh, yeah. All the time, and actually I watching, I kind of respect PornHub, which is the biggest, because they have in states where this is a requirement, and there are many of them now, I can't remember, almost a dozen. They just say, okay, fine. We're going to turn the service off. You're in whatever. I don't want to say the state if it's not the right state, but Louisiana for instance, [00:50:30] I think that's a good thing. Just say, well, fine. If you're going to make us do that, we're just not going to be there. You

Glenn Fleishman (00:50:35):
Just tied into TSA pre, right. You just have to be a, oh, geez. If you can board without going through this normal security, you can

Leo Laporte (00:50:44):
Anyway, just a terrible, terrible idea in the first place in a federal judge in Texas, David Ezra has said, it violates first amendment free speech rights, and it's too vague. It's constitutionally problematic because it deters [00:51:00] adult access to, by the way, this is important legally. Legally explicit material far beyond the interest of protecting minors. There's another example where they pass these laws and the intent is maybe good, but the actual impact of it is not so good. Means do not justify the end or the end is not just justify the means, oh, hey, are you worried about UFOs who isn't?

Glenn Fleishman (00:51:30):
[00:51:30] Is this an ad?

Leo Laporte (00:51:31):
Yeah, this should be an ad. The United States Department of Defense has launched a U F O site. Well, they call it the all domain anomaly resolution office, A A R O, but if you go to AAR dot mill, you'll see, oops, we're having trouble finding that site. Yeah, maybe I have to type the dub dub dub. It's an unidentified anomaly.

Glenn Fleishman (00:51:58):
Isn't that a guys and doll song? The all [00:52:00] domain

Leo Laporte (00:52:01):
Anomaly. Relat office

Glenn Fleishman (00:52:04):

Leo Laporte (00:52:06):
So type the dub dub dub. They haven't figured out how to do that yet, I guess. Bless their heart. Bless their heart. Bless their heart. The best part is this U A P reporting trends

Glenn Fleishman (00:52:17):

Leo Laporte (00:52:18):
Isn't it? I don't think it really revealing, in any sense. We don't know more about, because first of all, this doesn't mean aliens. They

Glenn Fleishman (00:52:28):
Just reopened Project [00:52:30] Blue Book.

Leo Laporte (00:52:31):
It just means stuff. We don't know what the hell it was.

Glenn Fleishman (00:52:34):
Yeah, so dating back, they'll accept reports dating back to 1945.

Leo Laporte (00:52:40):
That's interesting. Typically reported characteristics of unidentified aerial phenomenon. They're round morphology, round size, one to four meters color, white silver or translucent. They tend to hover around 20,000 feet, but I thought they would be green though, [00:53:00] right? No, that's the men inside. Oh, okay. It's silver round, silver velocity stationary to twice the speed of sound. Mach two propulsion, no thermal exhaust detected. This is, I don't know what they even mean. Typically reported U A P characteristics. Then they talk about see round here or browner sphere, 40% vector tic-tac 1% are tic-tac shaped [00:53:30] polygon, square, rectangle, triangle, all kinds of shapes and sizes. Fascinating. Here's the altitudes,

Ant Pruitt (00:53:40):
So that's it. You said they're taking reports retroactively back to 1945.

Leo Laporte (00:53:45):
Well, the government has these in a file cabinet somewhere, right?

Glenn Fleishman (00:53:48):
Yeah. It says, we'll accept reports for current or former US government employees, service members, contractors with direct knowledge of US government programs or activities related to U A P dating back [00:54:00] to 1945. So they're saying, if we weren't told before, you could tell us now, although it's the end that the government can receive classified information from people, so that means if you had classified information, we're told not to talk about it. You're apparently allowed to report it. If I'm not a lawyer, just what I'm reading in the footnote.

Leo Laporte (00:54:19):
This is interesting. This is the heat map of where these reports seem. They seem to be all, there's almost like the same latitude, Southeast United States. The hotspot [00:54:30] right there that looks like, I don't know, maybe Georgia. Georgia, that's, that's down there just below south kaki,

Ant Pruitt (00:54:39):
Georgian kaki.

Glenn Fleishman (00:54:42):
Are they Sure they're not Sphe Brown steroids about 10 inches long. They've just got hurled too high in the air.

Leo Laporte (00:54:50):
Hey. Hey. Southern California. Also hot spots. SoCal for some reason, the Middle [00:55:00] East possible. The Fertile Crescent seems to be a hot spot. Beijing and then China. Yeah, Beijing. That's weird. That's really interesting. You

Ant Pruitt (00:55:12):
Don't say

Leo Laporte (00:55:13):
Yeah, don't, yeah, don't say u a p. If you want to know more, www dot a aro dot mill and you can submit right there on the page. There's a button for you, make you feel better. Pretty good education

Ant Pruitt (00:55:30):
[00:55:30] Going to site me up because they're going to get flooded with a lot of reports and information

Leo Laporte (00:55:34):
I'm sure. Look at, there's the, this is backed by the No Fear Act, no retaliation. Remember

Glenn Fleishman (00:55:40):
The story two years ago, the jet pack guy who was terrorizing planes around? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:55:45):
Did they ever figure that out?

Glenn Fleishman (00:55:46):
Yeah. It was a life size inflatable Jack Skelton. It was a balloon. It just kept flying around in

Leo Laporte (00:55:53):
The nightmare before Christmas that Jack Skellington

Glenn Fleishman (00:55:56):
From Tim Burton's a nightmare before Christmas.

Ant Pruitt (00:55:58):
Yes, sir. That would be Yes.

Leo Laporte (00:56:00):
[00:56:00] Yes. Wait a minute. It

Glenn Fleishman (00:56:01):
Was pretty sure

Leo Laporte (00:56:02):
It was a Jack Skellington balloon.

Glenn Fleishman (00:56:05):
Yep. It was like an inflatable single. It says story from N B C. It could have been a single balloon that broke loose from a Halloween display. Drifted to the sky.

Leo Laporte (00:56:15):
Yeah, because this was all over la. We kept seeing these reports from airplanes, others, there was a guy flying around my plane looking at me. Months of investigation, the I-team [00:56:30] has uncovered images that may have cracked the case. Good evening. I'm Chuck Henry, so there's the image. Yeah, it does look like a Jack Skellington ball. Not hilarious.

Glenn Fleishman (00:56:42):
I mean, there's certain shapes that are more aerodynamic and they didn't design it to fly, but it's possible. It just had the right lift that it did it and

Leo Laporte (00:56:49):
It reached equilibrium.

Glenn Fleishman (00:56:52):
Yeah. Just kept drifting up and heating up of helium. Heating up and cooling down.

Leo Laporte (00:56:56):
Wow. I remember talking about [00:57:00] this

Ant Pruitt (00:57:00):
Stuff up, man.

Leo Laporte (00:57:02):
I was working on LA radio. There's been another sighting pilot reports. In fact, I think we had audio. Didn't we pilot reports yet? Another jet packed like mystery object flying near L A X.

Glenn Fleishman (00:57:17):
I mean, it's got to be terrifying as a pilot. Like what the, why is someone doing that? And

Leo Laporte (00:57:22):
Three sightings, but pilots lined up to a land at L A X, but now once you see the

Ant Pruitt (00:57:27):
Picture, it was just all pranks.

Leo Laporte (00:57:30):
[00:57:30] Think this is, I think it's not a prank, it's just escaped. Right, but this wasn't

Glenn Fleishman (00:57:35):
Right, Aaron, you see it flying around. That's what I assume so I assume all the anomalous readings are, they're not pranks, but I would love, I believe there is extra terrestrial life. I think we're the only life in the universe. I don't think anyone's come to visit. I don't think they're flying weird missions around. I don't think physics allows it so to be, it's more likely there's another explanation [00:58:00] that's just irritating. Like the Chinese have developed some really great thin material that is really bizarre, reflective, proper.

Leo Laporte (00:58:08):
I think it's also

Ant Pruitt (00:58:09):
Way smarter and more intelligent than we are, and they're just staring at us on whatever radar technology they have and

Leo Laporte (00:58:16):
They got the big screen, big those idiot round view screen. Let's see what's going on on earth. Yeah. Okay. Can I time travel? There may be life elsewhere in the universe, but it's a long fing way [00:58:30] away. It ain't, they're not coming here any more than we're going there. Exactly.

Glenn Fleishman (00:58:35):
Here's the thing that would be incredibly cool is if it turned out that there were alien life forms that were intelligent or were able to build ships and come here, what they would teach us about physics if they decided to, or we turned out it was true, it would be amazing. We'd overturn practically everything that's understood, but I just think it's Occam's razor. What's the likelihood of that happening? It's very,

Leo Laporte (00:58:56):
Very low. And then somebody pointed out, imagine a civilization [00:59:00] that has this technological sophistication to create a spaceship that can cross the vast regions of space and it flies here successfully and then whoops, crashes. What is the, we can't get back. What is the likelihood? Oh man, we got so close and then we, oh man. Crashed. No, I don't think so. And maybe here's another way that we can help people get over this belief. [00:59:30] Caltech, you've heard of them. Good school. I think 42 Nobel Laureates teach there. It's a small school. It's hard to get into, I think only a few percentage points of 2,400 students, 40% of 'em undergraduates, 3% admission rates. Very hard to get into. One of the reasons is Caltech requires calculus. You also have to have a certain level of physics and chemistry before [01:00:00] you can get in as an admission to get into as a freshman. And unfortunately in this modern age, there are many things. High schools are no longer teaching among them. Calculus, physics, and chemistry.

Glenn Fleishman (01:00:14):
Oh man, that's a bummer.

Leo Laporte (01:00:17):
Caltech was absolutely firm. If you don't have these, you can't get in more than one third of the nation's. High schools do not offer a calculus. Did you take calculus Ann? Have you ever taken calculus?

Ant Pruitt (01:00:29):
I did. [01:00:30] Totally useless, but I took it.

Leo Laporte (01:00:32):
But if you, you know what? If you had ended up as a rocket scientist, you would've

Ant Pruitt (01:00:35):
Used it. Right? That's the thing. I am grateful that my generation had the opportunity to even consider that because that opens up other doors.

Leo Laporte (01:00:45):
I think there's another reason to teach a higher level math. It also teaches you how to think. So you may say, I'm never freaking

Ant Pruitt (01:00:52):
Thinking man.

Leo Laporte (01:00:54):
I'm never going to use calculus. But the process of learning it was what a skill you learned.

Ant Pruitt (01:01:00):
[01:01:00] Yeah. I said it about algebra. I mean now granted, geometry is, I guess is a little bit more useful used in the real world.

Leo Laporte (01:01:08):
Voters need

Ant Pruitt (01:01:08):
All of that stuff. It teaches you how to think and the more I taught to a lot of the teenagers that I've come across, whether it's here or back in Carolina, man, a lot of kids, they just don't think things through and it's right there in front of 'em and it makes me wonder, well, what's going on in the classroom? I see stuff like this. Oh yeah. That's why

Leo Laporte (01:01:29):
Glenn, [01:01:30] did you study higher level math? Science?

Glenn Fleishman (01:01:33):
I went through trig and then I had other courses I wanted to take senior year. I never took calculus, went to college. It was like, oh, I'll take calculus now. The only class I've ever had to withdraw from, I could not. It's hard. Could not do it. It it's

Ant Pruitt (01:01:45):
Frigging hard. Super

Leo Laporte (01:01:46):
Hard freshman

Glenn Fleishman (01:01:47):
Year, bad time freshman year at like nine in the morning is a bad time to, yeah, I

Leo Laporte (01:01:51):
Did that too. I took ancient Greek and I dropped that in the first six weeks and I was like,

Glenn Fleishman (01:01:55):
No. Oh my God.

Leo Laporte (01:01:57):
Latin was easy.

Glenn Fleishman (01:02:00):
[01:02:00] It's

Ant Pruitt (01:02:01):
Poet, the man of the world.

Leo Laporte (01:02:02):
I had learned in the summer before going to college, I learned alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, Zeta Theta, Yoda, Lambda, Muk, Omicron, psig, omega. I'd learned the alphabet. I thought I'm going to be so radio and they move a mile a minute. It's not throw pause and throw poo. You go. And I said, this is not for me. I ended up canceling most of my classes, to be honest, to be perfectly. [01:02:30] Anyway, good news. Caltech in the name of equity is changing their requirements and groundbreaking step. They announced Thursday they're going to drop the admission requirements for calculus, physics, and chemistry for students. Now you have to say, first of all, show that your high school didn't offer it and you have to take an equivalent, which will include Khan Academy. I love this.

Glenn Fleishman (01:02:57):
Plus a test, plus you have to take a certification [01:03:00] test, but it's fantastic. I love that they listened and because there are, I mean the fact, it's one thing the arts usually get cut first, but now they're cutting to the bone. So many schools never offered it or cutting these higher level courses that people kids want to take and unless they're an area with my district in Seattle, they've got, the courses are being offered thankfully at all the high schools. But also there's access to a rich community college program here. So if a course isn't offered, the kids can do it either for credit or to get an advanced [01:03:30] to accelerate a course requirement. All of this. And so I got to imagine there's the places they must be so tapped out where there's just no resource for these kids at all. This is fantastic.

Leo Laporte (01:03:40):
It tends to be, interestingly, a high proportion of schools was black and Latino students. Only 38% of the 26,300 public high schools with high proportions of black and Latino students offered calculus in 20 15, 20 16 in suburban schools. They do offer it [01:04:00] similar problems with chemistry and physics,

Ant Pruitt (01:04:02):
And that's why school choice has been such a hot topic here in the state of California too.

Leo Laporte (01:04:10):
I think it's great because I think Khan Academy and other online schools, which really are open to all, if you have, I guess you have to have internet access, but you can online and do it, I think is huge. I think it's huge. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:04:28):
I love the idea [01:04:30] of people still being able to have an opportunity, even though sometimes they're facing limitations beyond their control.

Leo Laporte (01:04:40):
Alright, little break here. More to come. Wonderful panel. We miss you, Jeff. I hope you come back soon. Indeed. I don't know. I think he's, let me just check. I think he's, I

Ant Pruitt (01:04:52):
Believe he's here next

Leo Laporte (01:04:53):
Week. He's here next week.

Ant Pruitt (01:04:54):
You're not there. Well,

Leo Laporte (01:04:56):
I will be. I'll be coming to you for my mom's basement as Allgood podcasters. [01:05:00] Should.

Glenn Fleishman (01:05:01):
Is Jeff becoming a roaming professor? Mendicant, is he going to roam the streets and Dispen? Know for alms?

Leo Laporte (01:05:06):
Alms for the journalism professor?

Glenn Fleishman (01:05:08):
I mean, I got to say, it seems like a likely progression for him.

Leo Laporte (01:05:11):
I can't, he looks kind of monk-like. I can see him wrapped.

Ant Pruitt (01:05:16):
He's ready for it.

Leo Laporte (01:05:17):

Ant Pruitt (01:05:20):
Lemme tell you about Gutenberg. Imagine him out there. People that probably think he's Odin. He [01:05:30] needs a STAs. I was surprised when we met in person how tall he is. He's got He's

Leo Laporte (01:05:34):
Tall presence. Tall. He is

Ant Pruitt (01:05:35):
Six. Oh, my camera died.

Leo Laporte (01:05:38):
That's all right because you are, we're going to a break. You are now going to break. And the rainbow colors of Aunt Pruitt. Our show today brought to you by Melissa. The Melissa, yes. The data quality experts. For 38 years, Melissa has helped companies harness the value of their customer data to drive insight, maintain data quality, to [01:06:00] support global intelligence. If you're in a business and you have a list, whether it's suppliers, customers, you probably know that data goes bad faster than you'd want. All data goes bad up to 25% of it per year, and it's so important to have clean verified data. It helps customers get a smooth air free purchase experience. It helps you with your mailings and your outreach. Bad data. That's just [01:06:30] bad business and in fact, costs an average of $9 million each year. Melissa is flexible. It fits into any business model.

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That's how Melissa can give it to you. They have SaaS solutions as well. Make sure your customer contact data is up to date. Get started today with 1000 records cleaned for free. M E L I ss a We thank 'em so much for their support of this week in Google. [01:09:00] You support us too. If you use that address, AW N F T Hype is fading a I hope you didn't get stuck with a bored ape, a folder full of JPEGs. What am I going to do with them? They're worth absolutely nothing. The story from Bloomberg Monthly trading volume for NFTs plummeted between January, 2022. In July [01:09:30] of this year. 81% N F T sales figures monthly have dropped 61% floor prices for blue chip NFTs like the Board Ape Yacht Club and Crypto punks at more than two year lows. Lorenzo Melendez, president of Pudgy Penguins says when you look at the church, everything's down. [01:10:00] Penguins is practically chicken, it's chickens. You're seeing just a lot of capitulation. We don't know what to do or where to go, so just pat yourself on the back if you didn't buy an N F T. Oh my God. Now, and I know you did NFTs, but I think that that is a little bit different. You did not sell them.

Ant Pruitt (01:10:18):
It is totally different.

Leo Laporte (01:10:20):
It wasn't about a get rich quick scheme. It was about supporting artists.

Ant Pruitt (01:10:24):
Right? Support artists allow artists to continue to earn money [01:10:30] one way or another for their creations. It wasn't about collectors items, it wasn't about investments and none of that. It was just if an artist has an N F T out there and you want to support that artist, buy it. If an artist had a print out there, aunt and you wanted to support that artist, buy the print, it's the same dgu thing in my eyes. It wasn't about investments and stuff

Leo Laporte (01:10:55):
And that was really where the problem lay was people. It was like Beanie Babies who said [01:11:00] these, you're going to be this digital version of a board monkey is going to be worth millions down the road. Investors aren't the only ones. According to Bloomberg N F T Marketplace Recur, which is backed by billionaire Steve Cohen and is known for its Hello Kitty n f t part, who could forget that said, it's winding down due to unforeseen challenges and shifts in the business landscape. [01:11:30] Mark Cuban backed NFT social media platform, NIF ties get it N F T NIF ties. Oh gosh. They had done Looney Tunes, themed NFTs also closing down saying citing investment opportunities. That quote didn't pan out. Oh really? I'm sorry. I'm suffering a little shot in Freud here. I told you, I told [01:12:00] you surviving platforms and projects aren't faring well either. Leading N F T marketplace Blur has seen its sales volume measured in Ether drops 96% between a late June peak and early August opens Sea decided to make royalties paid on secondary sales. Optional. Now that's a big deal. Terrible. One of the promises here was you buy it or you make it rather and then you sell it and then when it gets sold on again and again, you get royalties each time. Now they're saying, [01:12:30] well nevermind.

Glenn Fleishman (01:12:35):
I love the idea of being able to sell a digital original that would have something as an artist, as you say, to support artists and to give artists other, it's a digital transition, particularly as shipping has become super expensive outside the us. It's meant that artists used to have an international market. They lost that in the last few years. I mean, shipping is so insane. So [01:13:00] I thought at one point I was like, well, maybe NFTs like ants and maybe NFTs will be another way to support artists. Give them a future revenue stream, let them own their work. Even if the underlying technology seemed to me ridiculous. Maybe it was a way to order to own a digital original or digital print and just the whole thing. Just the networks are being shut down. You can't even access your

Leo Laporte (01:13:23):
Stuff. Yeah,

Glenn Fleishman (01:13:23):
If you bought things

Leo Laporte (01:13:24):
Opens sea was pretty much the place everybody ended up going through. If opens sea delisted [01:13:30] you,

Glenn Fleishman (01:13:31):
Yeah, you were

Leo Laporte (01:13:32):
Done, you're dead.

Glenn Fleishman (01:13:34):
You can still go to Web three is going just great and watch, I mean the one place there's a lot of action with NFTs is all the rug poles and other problems. You could just keep going to web. The Molly White site is, boy, I thought every time I think crypto NFTs or blockchain or anything is ebbing, I just look at my feed for that site. I'm like, man, every day there's some millions or tens of millions of dollars seem to get stolen, some kind of crack [01:14:00] hack. So constant. There's still apparently plenty of money out there to steal.

Leo Laporte (01:14:03):
It's constant.

Glenn Fleishman (01:14:05):
It's amazing.

Leo Laporte (01:14:07):
Yeah, so I do think there might be some value in the long run. NFTs might not go away forever because it's a good way to prove provenance.

Glenn Fleishman (01:14:15):
Digital ticketing, right? That has to be digital

Leo Laporte (01:14:16):
Ticketing or digital tickets. You're right. Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (01:14:18):
Digital tickets great. I mean the always question is do you need a blockchain when you could have a serial number or it's a decentralization aspect and I think

Leo Laporte (01:14:27):
That's what ends up costing because of gas fees with Ethereum [01:14:30] in other places. But

Glenn Fleishman (01:14:31):
It's also the idea is that you don't hold the proof that a thing is unique. Somebody else does that. Blockchain provides uniqueness, but I mean not that Ethereum has gone anywhere, but all the projects built on top of these other efforts, they don't seem to have lasting power. So what happens if, I don't know, you needed technology built on top of it and it didn't prove to be worthwhile enough. I think it's easier to sell stuff that's serialized and one organization is responsible [01:15:00] for each serialization of it. I don't know.

Leo Laporte (01:15:02):
Well, speaking of crypto, get

Ant Pruitt (01:15:03):
Everybody wanting to be decentralized from the fiat stuff. I get that, but

Glenn Fleishman (01:15:11):
Don't there yet. It turned out to all be centralized. Turned out that there's a lot of choke points because of the exchanges, which is what folks are worried would happen and then it happened. But I just keep getting, I'm amazed. I think there's still hundreds of billions of, or not hundreds of billions must be hundreds of billions of dollars. This still, right? There's a lot of money [01:15:30] still floating around, but that's part

Leo Laporte (01:15:30):
Of the

Glenn Fleishman (01:15:31):
Potential value

Leo Laporte (01:15:32):
Is people are holding this board ape, hoping they're going to make money on it and they're underwater. They spent a hundred thousand dollars on it and it's worth 20 now. So it's not gone away, but they're underwater.

Ant Pruitt (01:15:47):
I was done with it when I saw that stuff like Bored ape was worth gazillions of dollars and I'm like, okay, yeah, this is crap. And yeah, that can sound like sour [01:16:00] grapes coming from a creator, but at the same time, really a sketch of an ape with a cigarette in its mouth. Yeah, it's cool. It's nicely put together or what have you, but is it really worth millions of dollars? It's never

Glenn Fleishman (01:16:16):
About the actual work.

Leo Laporte (01:16:18):
It's speculation. It's never about the

Glenn Fleishman (01:16:19):
Actual work.

Leo Laporte (01:16:20):
It's about I'm going to make money on it. Right? Yeah. It doesn't matter what it is. It's a pixelated picture of a monkey or a punk.

Ant Pruitt (01:16:28):
Oh, the pixelated stuff or an owl. Yeah, [01:16:30] I forgot about that.

Leo Laporte (01:16:31):
Yeah, it's just not high quality. But is that what you're saying Benny? Know that it's really about, it's not about

Glenn Fleishman (01:16:36):
The work, it's

Leo Laporte (01:16:36):
About what you're going to make on it or

Glenn Fleishman (01:16:37):
Who made the work Even it could be the person who made it. Well,

Leo Laporte (01:16:40):
That's the irony of this. The artist who made the bored apes or the crypto punks is just some anonymous artist who got paid a flat fee. That's not who's making the money on it. It's Yuga Labs that's making the money on it.

Ant Pruitt (01:16:53):

Glenn Fleishman (01:16:54):
It's the modern, it's

Leo Laporte (01:16:56):
Beanie Babies. It's Beanie Babies. People bought

Glenn Fleishman (01:17:00):
[01:17:00] The Beanie Babies. At least were fun.

Leo Laporte (01:17:01):
At least

Glenn Fleishman (01:17:02):
You the Beanie

Leo Laporte (01:17:03):
Baby. My kids loved the Beanie Babies, but a lot of people bought 'em and kept them in the box sealed. Sure did. It was an investment. They weren't buying it because it was a fun toy. They were buying it because they weren't going to make money on it. Speculation, bad idea. Make money the old fashioned way at the casino. There you go. Craps table using a using a printing press. Using a printing press. I bet you Flungs would come in handy there. [01:17:30] Do you have a hundred dollars flung in your basement? Wish I've got no federal flung, no federal, no crimes committed. Okay. No. Hey, no, I don't want to. Speaking of crypto it. So this story has been a slow brewing for a long time. LastPass longtime sponsor here at Twit no longer, but a longtime sponsor. Some many months after they stopped their sponsorship, we learned that they had been hacked and [01:18:00] it was slowly dribbled out that first, oh yeah, somebody's compromised our dev system, don't worry, your passwords are safe.

And then a few months later, oh, turned out when they got into the dev system, they got into the S three backups of the vaults. They downloaded all the vaults. So now we've been waiting for the other shoe to drop because those vaults were encrypted, some of them better than others. We've learned, and Steve's talked about this on security now, that some of those vaults were [01:18:30] protected by a single iteration of the key derivative function, which is not super secure unless you had a really good password. But as you know, most people don't have supermarkets, most people don't. Yeah. So we've been waiting and I've always said, well, we'll know if this is a problem if we start seeing hacks. They say, now this is from Krebs on security, Brian Krebs reporting. We're seeing hacks. Taylor Monaghan leaned product manager [01:19:00] of Meta Mask, which is a cryptocurrency wallet for Ethereum. He and other researchers have identified what they say is a reliable set of clues connecting recent cryptocurrency thefts, more than 150 people robbed of collectively more than 35 million worth of crypto. What do they all have in common? They use LastPass.

I'm sorry, Taylor says pronoun is she? Monaghan [01:19:30] said, virtually all the victims she'd assisted were longtime cryptocurrency investors, which meant they were security minded and sophisticated. Importantly, none appeared to have suffered the sort of attacks that typically preface a high dollar crypto heist such as the compromise of one's email and or mobile phone accounts. This is Brian Krebs writing. Monaghan wrote the victim. This is in on her Twitter. The victim profile remains the most striking thing. [01:20:00] They truly all are reasonably secure. They're also deeply integrated into this ecosystem. Employees of reputable crypto orgs, VCs, people who build defi protocols, deploy contracts, run full nodes and have e n s names. I mean these are sophisticated people. The diversity of key types strain is remarkable. The 12 and 24 word seeds generated via all types of hardware and software wallets, Ethereum, presale Wallet, JSONs Wallet DATs, that's what I've got private [01:20:30] keys generated via a MU and others. However, it looks like nearly every victim had used LastPass to store their seed phrase, which is the private key needed to unlock their cryptocurrency investments. Now in fact, I have a wallet and I forgot the password and the reason I don't know how to get into my wallet is I did not put it in LastPass. Oh no. So was I the idiot or

[01:21:00] It's for one filet.

Glenn Fleishman (01:21:04):
I love buying Krebs and I've known him for gosh, over 20 years and I started reading this and I was like, maybe this is a reach. Gosh, I don't know, but I'm like, that's unlikely. And boy, the people he's quoting are great and I was like, but this doesn't, and I got to the part which I'd forgotten, which was LastPass never upgraded their security mixing over time. So if you,

Leo Laporte (01:21:26):
The pbk D F two did not have sufficient, if you had

Glenn Fleishman (01:21:30):
[01:21:30] Short password and not enough iterations, not enough iterations of that routine, then they didn't make you change it. This has been a problem in some password breaches seems to have abated is that sites used to use simple shot one hashing, which is now considered an outdated algorithm, but it's also you could have a short password, have it just Shaw one and hashed and it was easy for crackers to make up what are called rainbow [01:22:00] tables. I'm sure you and Steve talked about this, but it was easy to have pre-computed tables to crack common passwords, but then sites got smarter. They started using longer hashes, they started forcing security updates. They'd notify people, they'd push out password requirement, update notices. They started using salting, which meant that every password, even when hashed was different, all these great things, but LastPass for some reason never said, Hey, you haven't changed this since whatever [01:22:30] it is, no longer secure.

You need to do something. It would've been trivial because they don't know your password, but they do know your, excuse me, they do know when you last made a change. They have some metadata about it and it's disclosed one password is, I recall because I remember a report came out several years ago that looked into the iteration and the algorithms being used and one password wasn't perfect, but it was kind of in the top of the heap. LastPass wasn't bad, but one password since then dramatically increased as did LastPass security. And [01:23:00] so I think even if my LastPass storage vault from 15 years ago were uncovered, I don't think it's crackable today, but a LastPass one from several years ago without being updated is ostensibly has the chance to be.

Leo Laporte (01:23:14):
Steve reported on this some months ago that looking at a lot of these vaults people would look at, there were tools you could use to analyze your vault. In the early days, LastPass used pbk DF [01:23:30] two with one iteration say that

Glenn Fleishman (01:23:33):

Leo Laporte (01:23:33):
Which is very weak.

Very weak. That's the key derivative function which hashes, so you have a password, you can read it monkey 1, 2, 3, and then you run it through the pbk DF two, it's now hashed. The more times you run it through, the more difficult it is to brute force and because processors have gotten faster and faster, the recommended number of iterations from OAS and others is been getting [01:24:00] higher and higher. In the early days like five, six years ago, it was one iteration and many, it turns out people who had maybe upgraded to more. I eventually with LastPass went to 2 million iterations, which was the max.

Glenn Fleishman (01:24:15):
Sure, why not?

Leo Laporte (01:24:16):
Yeah, well why not? It does slow it down, but on a modern machine it doesn't show it down appreciably.

Glenn Fleishman (01:24:23):
Yeah. I remember when one password, they increased one of their iterations and I was like, oh [01:24:30] man, it's taking a good two seconds to unlock. Yeah, exactly. And then I upgraded my machine. It's like, it's like that, but yeah, it's a serious outdated password. Security that's not being forced to update is serious.

Leo Laporte (01:24:41):
For many older LastPass users, the initial default setting for iterations was anywhere from one to 500 by 20 13, 10 years ago, 5,000 became the default. In 2018, a hundred thousand 100 iterations, it's currently 600,000. Again, you could go to 2 million. There are [01:25:00] other key derivative functions though. In fact, our sponsor bit warden supports something called Argon two, which is memory hard and not nearly so brute forcible, probably not brute forcible in fact, although I'd never say never, so this was the supposition was, alright, somebody we don't know who we were thinking maybe it's a nation state, but somebody has these vault, maybe many, many people have the vault, maybe they've sold it off. The next thing they do is start brute forcing [01:25:30] it and they're going to get the low hanging fruit, which is going to be some elderly guy in Muncie whose password is monkey 1, 2 3 and it was one iteration, but there's nothing they're getting out of that, right?

They got his New York Times account so they keep going and I was expecting this would be a process that would happen slowly over time and in fact that's what it looks like. Perhaps they've been working on these crypto password vaults where there really is money [01:26:00] for a long time, but it's just taken that long to brute force that. Here we are almost a year later. It does look like now and 35 million somebody is, it looks like, again, there's no conclusive proof, but somebody is getting into these last pass bolts and they're going where the money is. They're going after people whose money. That's why we're only now hearing about it. I think

Ant Pruitt (01:26:28):
I'm probably one to [01:26:30] half a percent of folks that are still using LastPass and I feel fine about still using LastPass. I

Leo Laporte (01:26:38):
Think it's fine.

Ant Pruitt (01:26:39):
It broke down. I thought about it and said, you know what? Their noses and faces in the mud right now and they're quite embarrassed. I've got a hunch they're going to get their crap together, go about this the right way and really tighten things up. Plus I'm also going to be diligent about [01:27:00] managing the passwords that are out there right now at the time of knowing the news when it broke. I need to go change my passwords regardless of what's

Leo Laporte (01:27:08):
Happening. Atpa think that's probably, there are tools you can go and look at your passwords if you still have your last pass vault and see how many iterations were used. There will be a variation depending on when you created those passwords. Some people's older passwords are one pbk, df, two iteration that's worth looking at. Those are the low hanging fruit. Those I would change immediately. [01:27:30] I think if you had a password vault at LastPass during the time of this breach, it'd probably be prudent to assume that at some point your passwords might be cracked and you should probably change all of those, especially the

Ant Pruitt (01:27:43):
Ones for your Bitcoin that's not, it's been a weekend going through that list of that vault and changing and it stunk going to, it's no change passwords for everything, but I feel better now that it's done because it's better production. Krebs

Leo Laporte (01:27:57):
Has a really good article. He quotes Vladimir Palant, [01:28:00] who is the developer behind ad block plus and is a security researcher. It's funny. Palant explains all of this iteration stuff and he points out that the reason this has gotten easier to crack is these GPUs, which are really, really fast. They could do 4 million guesses a second even if you have a thousand iterations.

Ant Pruitt (01:28:22):

Leo Laporte (01:28:24):
Reached by Krebs on security pallet said he never received a response from LastPass about why the company apparently failed to migrate some number of customers [01:28:30] to more secure account settings, higher iterations. Palant wrote, I know exactly as much as everyone else. LastPass published some additional information last March just finally answered the question about the timeline of their breach, meaning which users are affected. It also made it obvious that business customers are very much at risk here. Federated login services being highly compromised in this breach. Palant said, upon logging into his LastPass account a few days ago, he found his master [01:29:00] password was still set at 5,000 iterations, which is pretty darn weak. As I said, I set mine at 2 million. LastPass was recommending a hundred thousand 100. I think it's worth examining your iterations. You can. There's tools out there if you search for it. Read this article by Brian Krebs. I think it's very complete and I think the other shoe has dropped. We now are starting to hear, it's not conclusive, but there [01:29:30] seems to be strong evidence that somebody has started to crack keys that were stolen in the last pass breach a year ago.

Glenn Fleishman (01:29:39):
I should point out, I said something a moment ago that wasn't, I just double checked on one password. If they changed in January of this year, they dramatically increased the iterations from a hundred thousand to 650,000. You do have to change your password, although you can keep it the same. You just have to run an operation to upgrade to the new one. But one password's trick, which [01:30:00] they started years ago is they don't have, so Apple and some other companies and many Android models now have a secure enclave or another kind of Microsoft's from the trusted identity module, something like that so that there's a local device encryption that's mixed with other information so that you have to have the local device plus a password. So even cracking the password doesn't help. One password did a version of this where they create a secret key on every device [01:30:30] in which you install one password, so it's all mixed, so even if you crack the one password vault password, you still can't decrypt the one password vault. So the password should be strong, but there's this other element that's a device-based encryption element, but if you want to increase, which now that I read this, I'm like, oh, I need to do this. If you want to get your password up to the maximum protection, you just have to essentially change it even back to itself and they'll regenerate the key and get you up to the latest

Leo Laporte (01:30:57):
Iterations. Yeah, bit Warden has a actual [01:31:00] setting that you can regenerate the key. Oh, you just

Glenn Fleishman (01:31:02):
Set up button in it?

Leo Laporte (01:31:04):

Glenn Fleishman (01:31:04):
Does it? Yeah, it's

Leo Laporte (01:31:05):
Good. Read the So Oasp, which I have to look up because it stands for the Open Worldwide Application Security project, but it is a trusted resource. Steve's referred to many times has a password storage cheat sheet, which I would recommend we'll put in a link in the show notes that you should read about hashes. They say do use argon two [01:31:30] and they have a recommendation for settings. Then if argon two is not available, which it isn't on most password managers, it is on bid warden use S crypt for legacy systems use B crypt. If, and this is the only reason P BK DF two survived is because FIPs one 40 required it, which is bad, but if you have to use it because of FIPs one 40 compliance use at least 600,000 or more. This [01:32:00] is the current OASP recommendation. That number keeps going up as GPUs get faster and faster and also considering using, I've never heard of this a pepper. We've talked about salting hashes, but consider using a pepper salt,

Glenn Fleishman (01:32:14):
Salt, pepper,

Leo Laporte (01:32:15):
Full flavor to provide additional defense in depth and so there's a lot of information about hashing versus encryption, how attackers crack it. The Brian Krebs article is

Glenn Fleishman (01:32:25):
Good. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Never came across the pepper before. So you add input. [01:32:30] I see. You add a secret to a password during hashing as opposed to the salt that's stored alongside it. PEPPER is kept separately elsewhere, like in a hardware security module. Well, that's clever. Salt and pepper.

Leo Laporte (01:32:42):
Yeah, and then the pepper, that's where you get that hardware security, that secure

Glenn Fleishman (01:32:46):
Enclave. The phone companies work with the F T C to develop this, sorry, the F C C, to develop this secure caller ID verification system that's been slowly rolling out onto phones and things. Shake and

Leo Laporte (01:32:59):
Stirred, [01:33:00] right,

Glenn Fleishman (01:33:00):
Shaken and stirred. They work so hard to force those names in there, but salt and pepper, shake and stir. Come on, you got to have it.

Leo Laporte (01:33:10):
What do they call it? Is it a retro nmm when you, Congress does this all the time. They've got a bill and then they reverse engineer it so it means something. I think shaken and stirred is a retro nm.

Glenn Fleishman (01:33:23):
The classic one was a physicist, Hans Beta. He wrote a paper and he wanted it to be funny, so he [01:33:30] signed up his friend Alfred and Gamo, so it the alpha beta Gamo Gamo paper. They were not involved.

Leo Laporte (01:33:37):
I read George Gamo as a child. He has the best physics books. Really? 1, 2, 3, infinity and he did something called Mr. Gam. Sorry. Yeah, I think it's pronounced. I don't know. I never knew how to pronounced probably I'm guessing mov. He did one about Mr. Tompkins in a two D world. Really? He was a brilliant [01:34:00] physicist, very involved in quantum physics, but wrote some of the best books on physics for the people like me, the lay person. Pick it up. Yeah. 1, 2, 3, infinity.

Glenn Fleishman (01:34:12):
That's I was just repeating. Fantastic. A bad joke and there you go. And there's actual meaning

Leo Laporte (01:34:17):
Came off to go with the alpha and the beta, alpha,

Glenn Fleishman (01:34:21):
Alpha, beta, beta camel.

Leo Laporte (01:34:23):
I read this to my daughter when she was like eight. I'm sure she understood none of it. She loved Mr. Tompkins. She thought [01:34:30] that was fantastic. It was about a guy living in a two D world and it was a way of learning about dimensions and stuff.

Glenn Fleishman (01:34:37):
Flat Stanley.

Leo Laporte (01:34:38):
Yeah, it was kind of flat. Stanley before there was flat Stanley looks like Mr. Tompkins. Both of these books are so old that they're really not in print, but Dover and who's this? That's publishing Canto, reprinting these Mr. Tompkins. Oh, that's

Glenn Fleishman (01:34:55):
Really sweet. What a lovely

Leo Laporte (01:34:56):
Thing. Yeah, yeah. I have fond memories of [01:35:00] 60 years old at least, but Abby loved them. Let's see here where we stand time-wise. Alright, we can do, I think let's do a change log. Change log. There's so many, many stories we haven't gotten to yet here. I'll just cover some of the headlines. Lightning round, Google Change. It's a lightning round. Google is updating the Android brand. Did you see the new Android logo for [01:35:30] Android? 14? Thank

Ant Pruitt (01:35:34):
You. Thank you Ms. Benito.

Leo Laporte (01:35:35):
That was perfect. Put 'em. It's a three D logo I guess to help connect Android to Google. I don't know. It's this modernized logo. There you go. Here's a video just for your delic Look, I got to put some Google in here and nobody's going to buy it that it's called this week of Google. There you go. There's your Google. You happy? You happy? Now [01:36:00] Android 14. It looks like Michelle Ramen is great. Michelle was regular on all about Android and is really, he gets the scoops. He had a couple of big scoops one and he's reporting this, I haven't seen confirmation yet, but he says he's hearing that the source code release of Android 14 has been delayed until the release of the new pixel phone, which will be October 4th. And he has some concern [01:36:30] because OEMs thought that Android 14 would come out yesterday that maybe there's an issue. OEMs are now being told that vulnerability is detailed in the Android 14. Security release notes won't be published till October 4th, so maybe that's why it's being held off. So if you were waiting for Android 14, your weight continues for yet another month. Google keeps it. Michelle's got this story too. Keeps leaking out information about the pixel. [01:37:00] There's not going to be anything we don't know about the Pixel eight by the time this is done. That's so

Ant Pruitt (01:37:07):
Stupid. They're doing everything they can to try to be relevant in this

Leo Laporte (01:37:11):
Space. You think they're doing it on purpose to fight so hard? I mean they keep putting out these accidents, images and so forth. Unintentional revelations, Google leaked, here's the leak, the Pixel eight pro, a full [01:37:30] 360 degree view of the phone confirming the colors ready for the colors. Licorice black, porcelain gray, sky blue. There is a weird yellow dot on the back of it. You see it right there. Some people thought maybe that's the N F C target. It says temperature sensor, but I don't know if it's pointing [01:38:00] to that dot or not. Hold it up to your forehead, you sick,

Ant Pruitt (01:38:05):
Put it up to your forehead and somebody punch you in the face. That what that is.

Leo Laporte (01:38:11):
Put it right there.

Glenn Fleishman (01:38:11):
That old joke, put it right there. That have seven cameras in the back of that though.

Leo Laporte (01:38:15):
It does have a lot of, well, I think a lot of sensors. I don't

Glenn Fleishman (01:38:18):
Have that. What is that? Tripophobia or I don't have that.

Leo Laporte (01:38:20):
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Boy, you count fast. I could tell you're a true Jeopardy champion

Glenn Fleishman (01:38:28):
Trip. Biphobia. I'm sorry. I do not have Tripophobia [01:38:30] trip.

Leo Laporte (01:38:30):
Biphobia is the fear of seven.

Glenn Fleishman (01:38:33):
Fear of holes, things with holes in them. I think it's a neurological thing because people will get queasy, they'll feel ill. They can look at Swiss cheese or grater or a bunch of camera lenses. It's uncontrollable and it's not like, oh, I was patterns. My

Ant Pruitt (01:38:50):
Mother was, people feel that way too,

Glenn Fleishman (01:38:52):
Right? My mother was scared by Swiss cheese as a child. It's just, no, it's

Leo Laporte (01:38:56):
So John, you're saying there's a subreddit devoted to the fear of holes.

Glenn Fleishman (01:39:00):
[01:39:00] Oh my god. It's a sub Reddit for everything.

Leo Laporte (01:39:04):
I mean literally. Is it called, what is it? Trip Phobe

Glenn Fleishman (01:39:08):
Tropho. Y P O, Tripophobia Disgust or Fear of a Pattern of holes. There's a wonderful British comedian and Bridget Christie who appears regularly on the qi sort of fun information show in the UK and every time she's on now she mentioned she had it and they torture her maybe unintentionally, but they're always like they're showing something on screen when [01:39:30] she's on lots. It's a pattern and she's like, I can't, can't look at that. And it's giant. They have giant screens behind both of the

Ant Pruitt (01:39:37):
So it holes and patterns.

Glenn Fleishman (01:39:39):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Ant Pruitt (01:39:40):
Yeah. But I remember hearing patterns was a neurological issue for some people.

Glenn Fleishman (01:39:46):
You look at a Hornet nest or I mean literally Swiss cheese, isn't it

Leo Laporte (01:39:52):
Funny tomatoes.

Glenn Fleishman (01:39:54):
Yeah, so disgusting.

Leo Laporte (01:39:57):
It's just, that's really interesting. Yeah. Maybe your mom was scared [01:40:00] by Swiss cheese, piece of Swiss cheese. I

Glenn Fleishman (01:40:02):
Don't know. Frightened by a Swiss person. It's just one of those things. The brain is a really weird thing. We're trained to recognize patterns and sometimes they trigger bad responses.

Ant Pruitt (01:40:10):
My side note, my dog biscuit was sick a couple weekends ago. It wasn't really sick. He definitely had an allergic reaction, so it gave him hives and so you have this little white dog walking around and he had these weird hives on his back and on his face. Oh my gosh. And [01:40:30] my son couldn't look at him every time my son saw him. My son would just scratch and just uncontrollably. Oh wow. It really affected him. And my sister-in-law, she's the same way. They see patterns a certain way and it really freaks him out. And it's

Glenn Fleishman (01:40:44):
Tell him it's a sign of intelligence clearly.

Ant Pruitt (01:40:47):
Oh gosh. I believe that with my sister-in-law. I'm still worried about that with the hard head though.

Leo Laporte (01:40:53):
I used to have Nest cameras all over and I have a Hello Doorbell and I used to pay for the [01:41:00] Nesta Aware subscription and at the time it didn't seem too expensive because after your first couple of cameras it was all included. Whoa, get ready, stand back. They're going to raise the price of Nesta aware big time. It's currently $8 a month or $80 annually. Excuse me. It was $6 and $60. It is $15 now. 150. It's going up. [01:41:30] It's going up. The new Nesta aware cost will be, wait a minute, I got confused. Yeah, you had it right. Did I have it right? The eight? The eight is the increase. Oh, okay. Monthly or yearly subscription, $8 a month, previously $6. Okay. But the Nesta wear plus $15 a month. That's big. Yeah, yeah. Was 12. I think I have the $12 a month one.

So I'm seeing [01:42:00] a lot of people saying, is there anything we can do and get rid of these cameras? But I think everybody's, what's happening with Nest is they're recording it, storing it, and you can go look at it after the fact and it's been useful. When our newspaper delivery lady ran over our mailbox, I had video, I had video of it. We were in Europe and I could look and say, oh yeah, I see who did that. She was nice. She said, I'll pay for it. I said, no, no, no, not necessary. [01:42:30] We were going to got camera. She was nice. But I do have video in case you want to see

Glenn Fleishman (01:42:34):
Somebody stole my tivas off my porch or

Leo Laporte (01:42:38):
An animal who would want used.

Glenn Fleishman (01:42:41):
This is the most S crime that's ever happened. Yeah, yeah. They've stole a neat sheet, like a blanket. You sit on a park and there were tons of other stuff on our porch and our camera didn't catch it. We can't use infrared mode. Got it. Inside. Or it could have been an animal, it could have been a raccoon, but it was the weirdest thing [01:43:00] I've done. I've reviewed all the camera footage like nobody was caught and I'm like, so I need to get an infrared outdoor camera now clearly to find out who stole my

Leo Laporte (01:43:09):
Tivas. I cried when I saw a man who had Novas until I saw a man who had no feet. Ancient Chinese proverb, Google cried. I don't know. I dunno. It was stuck in my brain somewhere. I don't think I can use it on jeopardy, but it's there. It's stuck in there. [01:43:30] Google Chrome pushes browser history based ad targeting. This is topics, but here's the deal. It's not just in, we've talked about this on this show. We've talked about it with Steve Gibson. Google, as you know, is really trying to figure out some way that it can appease advertisers, give 'em information about you without annoying you so much that you use an ad blocker and then all Betts are off. So topics is their latest thing, part of their Privacy Sandbox project, the E F F and Mozilla and [01:44:00] others are saying, we still don't like topics.

Steve likes it saying, well, it's the best of all evils, but get ready because it's not just in your browser. Topics are now coming to apps on the Android store, so you can turn it off easily in Chrome. Well, not that easily, but you can dig around and if you search the internet, you'll find ways to do it. [01:44:30] But now it looks like they're going to also support topics in the Google Play store for apps, which means, so you're using an app, it's got an ad, the app can query other apps on your phone, query your phone about what apps you have to figure out what your interests are to show you a related ad. Does that bother you?

Yeah, I don't need that kind of cross-communication between apps. Yeah, I feel like they shouldn't be talking [01:45:00] to each other. Shut up. Anyway, it's coming soon to an Most people are not going to care though. Well, most people aren't even going to know. You're only going to know if you listen to shows like this or Security now. Right? So it's coming to Chrome. It's in Chromium, brave Vivaldi and Opera. Three browsers based in chromium have all said, we're not going to do topics. Don't worry. I'm [01:45:30] sure Firefox is not doing topics. That's my preferred browser. But if Microsoft is not yet said whether they're going to put topics in edge, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did. So something to be aware of, and this is the least thing Google could do for you. Workspace customers, you now can lock files so that nobody can change them. It's literally the least thing they could do to say, Hey, [01:46:00] we have a new feature.

When the file is locked. No one with any level of access can make edits, comments or suggestions. It's read only until you unlock it. Woo-hoo. Sure. And that's big news. Big news. The Google fake news. Alright, I think it's time to get your picks of the week in just a moment if you don't mind. So prepare those [01:46:30] if you will. Jeff Jarvis will be back next week as Will Kathy Galles filling in. As you know, we've got a gaping hole in our hearts. Stacey Higginbotham has left the show. She's left her other podcast too, but to focus full-time on her advocacy work for Consumer Reports, which is fantastic. We're very proud of her. But aunt, there's good news. Stacey is going to continue to do the book club.

Ant Pruitt (01:46:55):
That's right. That's right. Still going to be doing the book club for our wonderful club Twit members. [01:47:00] We met last week and discussed in Lucky's translation State. Had a very good time on that. And now we're in the middle of voting on our next book, which is probably going to be a John Scalzi book.

Leo Laporte (01:47:13):
Oh, how fun. Well, that ties

Ant Pruitt (01:47:17):
Won't be Red shirts. It's looking like Kaiju Preservation Society. I believe Slavery now it okay.

Leo Laporte (01:47:24):
Yeah. How cool. But the voting still going on, right? If you're a member of Club Twit, you can still go and vote.

Ant Pruitt (01:47:29):
Yeah, go vote now. [01:47:30] I think we

Leo Laporte (01:47:30):
Seem to have a leader

Ant Pruitt (01:47:31):

Leo Laporte (01:47:32):
Hours. It's not a full coincidence that Scalzi will be on. You're going to interview him on Thursday, October 5th in a fireside chat for a club members.

Ant Pruitt (01:47:41):
Yes sir. How'd you

Leo Laporte (01:47:41):
Get that guy?

Ant Pruitt (01:47:45):
All I can say is Mr. LaPorte, I just ask.

Leo Laporte (01:47:47):
You're good. So he gets Hugh Howie, who is the creator of Wool, which is the source material for Silo on Apple tv Plus tomorrow. [01:48:00] Hugh who got, by the way, you got to ask him about this. He got married at Burning Man.

Ant Pruitt (01:48:05):
See, I don't know if that was a wedding. I thought he was already married.

Leo Laporte (01:48:09):
Oh, and his reception, his wife was dressed up as a bride. I don't know. I thought he

Ant Pruitt (01:48:16):
Was already married. Well

Leo Laporte (01:48:17):
Ask him. We can find

Ant Pruitt (01:48:17):
Out because it's on Twitter, it's on public space. So we can ask him about

Leo Laporte (01:48:21):
Yeah, he was at Burning Man. Let's see here in Reddit it says, Hugh Howie getting married and Burning [01:48:30] Man was not on my 2023 Bingo card, but this looks like he got married. In fact, I think the tweet was, oh, the plastic, they say Rain on your wedding day is good luck. They also say it has never rained in the Lya like this before.

Ant Pruitt (01:48:44):

Leo Laporte (01:48:44):
Sure it's my fault for being the luckiest man in the world. But you know what? You can verify that tomorrow 2:00 PM Hugh Howie and together in conversation with Daniel Su Suarez, my good friend who's the author of Freedom and Demon and Kill Zone and

Ant Pruitt (01:48:59):
Freedom tm.

Leo Laporte (01:49:00):
[01:49:00] Oh, he has so many great books. That should be fun. Two of our best science fiction authors.

Ant Pruitt (01:49:05):
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. When I spoke with Mr. Howie in that conversation, he alluded to having other authors check out some of his work before he sent it for publishing or what have you. And I said, well, who in particular? And he was like, yo, well, one was Daniel Suarez. I'm like, really? We love Daniel Suarez. We got to get you two in the room together and sit down and have a chat. And he was like, yo, let's do that. Fantastic. Again, [01:49:30] just ask.

Leo Laporte (01:49:31):
Very nice. Ask him about his bride. She's wearing plastic bags on her feet. It was very good strategy. It's funny because President Biden was briefed on the crisis at Burning Man. All news there was so much Schaden Freud, so much gleeful pleasure in the misfortune of others. The poor burners stuck in the mud and the burners were saying, what are you talking about? It always rains the quiet. [01:50:00] Were going to stay till Tuesday anyway, they're coming home now. Everything's fine. This is what Burning Man's all about.

Glenn Fleishman (01:50:06):
Look, everybody got everything they wanted. The burners didn't care and everybody got free shot and Friday didn't have to pay for it.

Leo Laporte (01:50:12):
Free shot. And Friday

Glenn Fleishman (01:50:13):
Everybody win

Leo Laporte (01:50:14):
Free shot. And yeah, it was like people were acting like it was the end of the world. And I believed it. At first I thought, oh my God, this is terrible. We know so many people who were there, including Cory Dro, and he had brought Rebecca Giblin, his co-author for Choke Point Capitalism for the first time. And I thought, oh, [01:50:30] what a bad experience. No, everybody had a great time. It was just Chris Rock and Diplo who said, we got get

Glenn Fleishman (01:50:38):
Out of here. Good time walking out. It's funny. I mean, I think the reason it's like 70,000 people in the middle of nowhere. Let's say it had kept raining and they had the kind of rain they'd have elsewhere. I think the concern was do they have to bring in military transport to get people out? That's probably was. That's a lot of people without any real way to get them in and out.

Leo Laporte (01:50:57):
It rains all the time at Burning Man. It's not [01:51:00] unusual this time of year.

Glenn Fleishman (01:51:01):
Not that much, I guess.

Leo Laporte (01:51:02):
Yeah, it was a lot. It was muddy. Nobody died because of the rain. I think somebody died, but it wasn't because of the rain. It was probably just the brown acid. I

Glenn Fleishman (01:51:10):
Think it's any group of 70,000 people for a week.

Leo Laporte (01:51:14):
It's like Woodstock. Three kids were born. It's what happens. Anyway, that should be fun. That's tomorrow for that interview. I cannot be here. As it turns out. I'm sorry. I was hoping I could, but I will be listening. But I am stuck. [01:51:30] We

Ant Pruitt (01:51:30):
Can have you zoom in if we need

Leo Laporte (01:51:31):
To. Well, I have an appointment, but anyway, that will be good. Reka. September 28th. As I said, skulls the October 5th. If you're not yet a member of Club Twit, I have to ask why not? Anne is doing a bang up job in our clubhouse, putting together these great events. That

Glenn Fleishman (01:51:52):
Old farts photo is hilarious. That AI or just,

Leo Laporte (01:51:56):
Yeah, I think that's Anthony. Good old Anthony

Ant Pruitt (01:51:59):
Did all of [01:52:00] the images in here.

Leo Laporte (01:52:01):
Anthony Nielsen is going to be part of a fireside chat. He's our AI magician here at twi. He's amazing. And yeah, he came up with this illustration. The old farts are Jeff Jarvis, doc Sear and myself. Doc Searles. Yeah, but it actually, it's a better picture. Yeah,

Ant Pruitt (01:52:16):
I pulled that out of Firefly prompt into Firefly to come up with the old farts art.

Leo Laporte (01:52:23):
Oh, you did it? Oh nice. Yes

Ant Pruitt (01:52:25):
Sir. I do all of the art for these.

Leo Laporte (01:52:28):
Oh, very

Ant Pruitt (01:52:28):
Nice. In discord.

Leo Laporte (01:52:30):
[01:52:30] So this is Adobe Firefly have no life. So no artists were harmed in the making of this image. That's

Ant Pruitt (01:52:34):
Good. No sir.

Leo Laporte (01:52:37):
Just a few egos. You also get mine. Which 1:00 AM I aunt? Which one of the 3:00 AM I? Of course you're

Ant Pruitt (01:52:48):
Always front and center

Leo Laporte (01:52:49):
Mr. I'm the smiley guy with a big beard. I was thinking of growing a beard until I saw this. Now I'm going, maybe not. I don't want to look like Santa Claus. [01:53:00] If you are not yet a member of Club twe, it is well worth, it's $7 a month. You get ad free versions of all the shows, no ad tracking. You get access to the Club Twit Discord where a party is going on all the time. And it really is a great place all day long and all night, all night long to chat about your favorite nerdy topics, including sci-fi, but a lot of other food and beverages and so forth. And of course stickers. All you got to do is go to twit [01:53:30] tv slash club twit, seven bucks a month, $84 a year. There's family plans. If you want everybody in the family to listen in. There's, there's

Ant Pruitt (01:53:38):
Single show plans too for folks

Leo Laporte (01:53:41):
That don't tell people about that. Feel

Ant Pruitt (01:53:42):
Like seven bucks, a

Leo Laporte (01:53:43):
Little too much. Why would you only $4 more to get everything. 2 99. You get a show. That's it.

Ant Pruitt (01:53:51):
That's it.

Leo Laporte (01:53:53):
Pay four bucks more. You get everything.

Ant Pruitt (01:53:56):
One less cup of coffee a month. That's it.

Leo Laporte (01:54:00):
[01:54:00] And there's no discord with a single show. You don't get seals of approval, you don't get access to the special events. You just get the show. But no, you know what? There are people like maybe anything helps. I don't know if you've noticed it. Podcasts. It's tough right now. It's really tough right now. And I don't think it's going to get any better. But we want to keep going. We're one of the oldest longest running shows [01:54:30] in the podcast universe. I think we bring you a quality programming on a variety of subjects and we want to keep going. The club is what helps us do that. So thank you in advance. Seven bucks a month, TWIT TV slash club twit. Or if you're cheapskate 2 99, if you just want one show, 2 99. There are people that do that, don't they? And we also, by the way, we also, that's the cup of coffee. [01:55:00] Oh Lord. One thing, the I R C, which is free does not have as animated gifts. Now that may be a good thing. It depends on your point of view is true. But we do have many animated gifts in the club. I don't know if you want to do a pick of the week, Glen. I mean, you're a guest in our house, but if you would I got one. Alright.

Glenn Fleishman (01:55:21):
I got a book.

Leo Laporte (01:55:22):
A book. I

Glenn Fleishman (01:55:22):
Got a book. Oh, it's invisible. Why is it invisible? I thought I just turned off. That's hilarious. I just turned off my green

Leo Laporte (01:55:29):
Screen. [01:55:30] Wait a minute. You're not really in your office.

Glenn Fleishman (01:55:32):
I am in my office. But why is it? Oh, I got to do, hold on one second. Technology. There

Leo Laporte (01:55:37):
We go. Oh, your office has changed.

Ant Pruitt (01:55:40):
Different book. Oh.

Leo Laporte (01:55:41):

Glenn Fleishman (01:55:41):
That's hilarious. You know what I was showing behind me was the fake. This is the Real Office. And I have a backdrop that looks like, oh, that's now my head hurts. I was showing you the fake version of all that. You

Leo Laporte (01:55:52):
Didn't know you were doing that.

Glenn Fleishman (01:55:53):
No, I didn't know because it's identical. It's a picture of that. So I didn't, but

Leo Laporte (01:55:58):
Wait a minute. Turn it on again because it's a [01:56:00] little different. So it's a different,

Glenn Fleishman (01:56:03):
Isn't it? That's so weird. So this is my

Leo Laporte (01:56:06):
Real, which do you buy?

Glenn Fleishman (01:56:09):
Fake office. Oh

Leo Laporte (01:56:10):

Glenn Fleishman (01:56:12):
That's the fake office. And this is the real office. You just shift fake, basically. Real. I did not know I was showing you. My God is too funny. I'm

Leo Laporte (01:56:22):
In Room Raider. Hell right now.

Glenn Fleishman (01:56:24):
That's so weird. Oh, that's so weird. Well, so

Leo Laporte (01:56:30):
[01:56:30] Now we can see the book, empire of

Glenn Fleishman (01:56:32):
The Empire of the Sum. Sum, the Rise and Reign of the Pocket Calculator by my pal, Keith Houston. Great book from Norton. Not a self-published effort. Keith didn't go the route of Martin and I did, they actually had somebody else edit and publish the dang thing. But it's great books about the history of the pocket calculator. Unbelievably, there's no book out there that's quite like this. Once you hear that, you're like, gosh, somebody should write this. [01:57:00] Keith wrote Shady Characters, which is the secret life of punctuation marks. In fact, those books are right behind me. That's hysterical

Leo Laporte (01:57:07):
Right there. You can reach and get 'em

Glenn Fleishman (01:57:09):
Good. And he also wrote a book called The Book, and the book is about the history of the book. Really good stuff. So he and I bonded over his book writing. Lovely Guy. And it's really, I'm about halfway through, well actually more than that. I got a lot of, he actually uses Endnotes. Terrific. Engaging, writing a very good, it was very funny because [01:57:30] Martine was already years into working on Shift Happens, and then I heard from Keith, oh yeah, I'm working on this book about keyboards. I was like, oh no, we're going to have two competing books. And then it was no Pocket Calculators. And so Marchine actually provided some images for Keith of things that he dug up too. So Marin's spanked in the back, which is very nice. So very complimentary books.

Leo Laporte (01:57:52):
He's probably mentions, I saw this in Tokyo. There's of course the Excellent Tokyo Museum. [01:58:00] They had a Abacus calculator, which I guess was a transitional object from probably from the World War II era, but it had an abacus and then physically part of it was also a pocket calculator. Maybe it was the sixties. But I guess calculators really came of age in the eighties, seventies, and eighties.

Glenn Fleishman (01:58:20):
Well, I learned so much already because the history of the calculators, the history of computations. So there's calculators that had, were hardwired. We had

Leo Laporte (01:58:30):
[01:58:30] Slide rules. When I am so old that when I was in high

Glenn Fleishman (01:58:34):
School was, until I read this, I didn't understand what it was.

Leo Laporte (01:58:37):
I have a giant demonstration slide room in the office.

Ant Pruitt (01:58:40):
Mr. Jamer probably has us covered, right?

Glenn Fleishman (01:58:42):
Oh man, I've seen them. I didn't know what they did. Now I understand

Leo Laporte (01:58:48):
It well, and I remember when calculators came out and they were really expensive in maybe sixth or seventh grade. They weren't very good. And then I remember [01:59:00] some kid probably in high school had a Seiko calculator watch that had a little stylus that you would, because it was too small for you do your fingers on the buttons. So a little stylus that would come out and you would tap the watch and do your calculations on the watch.

Ant Pruitt (01:59:18):
Oh my gosh.

Glenn Fleishman (01:59:19):
Oh yeah. I got a picture of myself from college wearing my fancy, doing a pose with my fancy Casio

Leo Laporte (01:59:25):
Calculator. Oh, you had one of those? It

Glenn Fleishman (01:59:28):
Was 1986.

Leo Laporte (01:59:29):
I don't remember [01:59:30] my first calculator. I think I probably didn't have one because at first they were so expensive. And then of course, by the time my kids were in high school, and probably your kids too, the hardhead, you had to buy a calculator. I mean, that was going to be, they needed that for graph one. Yeah, it

Glenn Fleishman (01:59:47):
Was expensive. Yeah. The

Leo Laporte (01:59:48):
TI graphic calculator

Glenn Fleishman (01:59:49):

Ant Pruitt (01:59:50):

Glenn Fleishman (01:59:51):
Never improved on it. And they have a monopoly and they keep that price locked

Leo Laporte (01:59:55):
In. Well, there's a sad story about how ti kept Apple [02:00:00] from putting its graphing calculator on the Mac for years. They didn't want to ridiculous undermine the sales of graphing calculators. They were, well, kids will use it to cheat or whatever.

Glenn Fleishman (02:00:12):
My wife was smart. She went to a pawn shop and bought a used one for my

Leo Laporte (02:00:15):
Kid because every 10 squad grader had one lot of, never used it again. The pawn shop. Did you have to do that for the hardhead?

Ant Pruitt (02:00:24):
Oh, no, did not. But I remember being in high school and having to get that T I 85 [02:00:30] or whatever, my mom's was like, Nope, not buying that. It's too expensive. So I had a TI 1795 plus that I had to figure out how to make work, and I'm grateful for that quite

Leo Laporte (02:00:43):
Honestly. You probably could program that one. Did you make it say boobs when you turned it upside down?

Ant Pruitt (02:00:47):
No comment.

Glenn Fleishman (02:00:50):
Try that with the program. P Calc. My friend James Thompson's long running, if you type in the numbers and in P calc, it gives an error. It's really cute. If you [02:01:00] dirty things, it'll tell you to not do it.

Ant Pruitt (02:01:03):
Nice. I

Leo Laporte (02:01:03):
Think the Apple engineer who wrote graph and calculator it,

Glenn Fleishman (02:01:10):
He did it. He snuck into the company. Do you remember that story?

Leo Laporte (02:01:12):
He snuck in.

Glenn Fleishman (02:01:13):
Yes. He wasn't working there. And he managed to work somehow do it. Like he got card keyed in for months until it was discovered. And then everybody flipped out and they wound up paying him something to include it. They were worried. They were worried about, there was some, I can't remember the whole kerfuffle, [02:01:30] but in the end, it's amazing. He basically snuck in for several months to write it on his own time.

Leo Laporte (02:01:37):
Go to N U C The graph, it's Ron Azer. He said, I used to be a contractor for Apple working on a secret project, but the computer we were building never saw the light of day. So in August 93, the project was canceled. I was unemployed, frustrated. I decided to cancel my small part of the project. I'd [02:02:00] been paid to do a job and I wanted to finish it. My electronic badge still opened apple's doors. This is in 93. So I kept showing up. Apple's engineers knew it. Some of them knew what I was up to. They thought it was cool. Whenever I gave demos, my colleague said, I wish I'd had that when I was in school, he was doing the graphic calculator. Those working on Apple's project to change the microprocessor in its computer to the power PC were especially supportive. They thought it'd be a great demo for the new machine. None of them was able to hire me. However, [02:02:30] that's a good story. I just showed up, showing up. It's like I had savings. I just decided people around the Apple campus saw us all the time and assume we belong. Few asked who we were or what we were doing. When someone did ask me, I never lied, but relied on the power of corporate apathy. The conversations usually went like this. Do you work here? No. You mean you're a contractor? Actually, no. But then who's paying you? No one. It's the

Ant Pruitt (02:02:57):
Reverse. Milton, how do

Leo Laporte (02:02:58):
You live? I live [02:03:00] simply, what are you doing here? At that point, I'd give a demo, explained the project had been canceled when I was staying to finish it anyway. Oh, great. For the power of corporate apathy. Mr. Aunt Pruitt, your pick of the week.

Ant Pruitt (02:03:17):
My pick. I want to give a shout out to member. Mr. Joe Esposito was part of the photo walk and had some photos that were pretty D Good. Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:03:27):
Did he post them

Ant Pruitt (02:03:28):
Into the Discord here? [02:03:30] And he asked for some critiques on it, and I gave him some critiques. And next thing I know, I see that he's made a video going through those images based on my critiques and went through and made some different edits and enhancements and things like that. And it was nicely done. And it's nice to see that what I saw in my head from a criticism standpoint seemed to work for him. So

Leo Laporte (02:03:57):
Joe's really talented Photoshop artist, and he does [02:04:00] YouTube streams for his ozone art foundry. And he has the Ozone Night School. And so here he is. This is Petaluma. I recognize it. Here he

Ant Pruitt (02:04:10):
Is. You know that Allie?

Leo Laporte (02:04:12):
Yeah, I know exactly where that is. That's cool. So he's editing these

Ant Pruitt (02:04:15):
Right there. He's trying to eliminate Mr. Victor.

Leo Laporte (02:04:18):
Oh, but that was Victor. Oh, how funny. This is cool.

Ant Pruitt (02:04:22):
Yeah, it was a good video. I

Leo Laporte (02:04:23):
Appreciate him. Oh, Joe, I'm glad. I'm glad you went. Joe Doodles, Photoshop special. [02:04:30] It's the ozone nightmare. Everybody should subscribe to Joe's Ozone Nightmare YouTube

Ant Pruitt (02:04:35):
Video. Go show him some love.

Leo Laporte (02:04:37):
Yeah, he's does some great stuff. Really great stuff.

Ant Pruitt (02:04:41):
And lastly, I just want to shout out to boy, even though I hate we lost, we lost 35 to 34.

Leo Laporte (02:04:48):
Oh, that kills. Oh.

Ant Pruitt (02:04:51):
But I'm so proud of him in this effort. Just five touchdowns in the game. Barely threw the ball [02:05:00] because quite frankly, we couldn't throw the ball. And he ended up with 12 series.

Leo Laporte (02:05:05):
Is he number four there?

Ant Pruitt (02:05:07):
Yes. Yes. Yeah. He's playing quarterback

Leo Laporte (02:05:11):
So well, there

Speaker 5 (02:05:12):
We go. There he goes. He, well, he's goes all the way.

Ant Pruitt (02:05:16):
That's just one of them. There was five.

Leo Laporte (02:05:18):
Five running rushing touchdowns,

Ant Pruitt (02:05:21):
Five rushing touchdowns.

Glenn Fleishman (02:05:23):
Wait, I'm sorry. Explain that final score though. So what was the,

Leo Laporte (02:05:26):
So he scored all the touchdowns for the team. He scored, you got all

Glenn Fleishman (02:05:29):
The, and [02:05:30] the other team missed extra points, four field extra points.

Ant Pruitt (02:05:33):
No, they scored, they score two, but both teams missed extra points. And the defeat was because of the missed extra points. Another

Leo Laporte (02:05:43):
Way he will be, he's going all the way. Touchdown. Oh, you must be so

Ant Pruitt (02:05:50):
Proud. 2 61 Russian yards.

Leo Laporte (02:05:52):

Ant Pruitt (02:05:53):
Yards on 12 carries. Oh my God. All of his touchdowns were at least 60 [02:06:00] yards, I think. Yeah, it was a hell of a day. Quite proud of him. I just hate wheel

Leo Laporte (02:06:04):
Lost. Now how is the

Ant Pruitt (02:06:06):
Recruiter going? This one was funny because this is going 80 yards, but he jogs at about 30 yards to go. He

Leo Laporte (02:06:12):
Says, I got it. There's no one near Me's going to try the rest of the way. Oh my God. He might be, could be

Glenn Fleishman (02:06:18):
Not be caught, as they

Leo Laporte (02:06:19):
Say. Yeah, he's gone way not be caught. Petaluma High. Oh, man. Yeah,

Ant Pruitt (02:06:25):
We beat Petaluma the other weekend and he had a good game against Pedal and Miss [02:06:30] Debbie saw him.

Leo Laporte (02:06:31):
Oh, nice. Saw him

Ant Pruitt (02:06:32):
Play in that game.

Leo Laporte (02:06:33):
Aw. But he goes to Redwood or no, where does he go

Ant Pruitt (02:06:37):
To? Rancho.

Leo Laporte (02:06:37):
Rancho and that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Rancho versus Redwood. One point.

Ant Pruitt (02:06:42):
Wow. One dag go heartbreaker.

Leo Laporte (02:06:45):
Yeah. How's the recruiting thing going, by the way? I guess it's, I mean, still

Ant Pruitt (02:06:50):
Start. Still all talk right now. Nobody's saying anything seriously. Just a bunch of sales folks. So I'm not going to take anybody seriously if they

Leo Laporte (02:06:57):
Don't. He's the Nick Bosa of college football. [02:07:00] He's getting right up to the edge, right up to the edge's. Junior

Ant Pruitt (02:07:05):
Year. This is his senior year. This is his senior year. This is his senior year.

Leo Laporte (02:07:09):
So you would've liked to have known by now because of college football started. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (02:07:13):
We both wanted to get it out of the way. So we're doing our part far as the applications and stuff. So you

Leo Laporte (02:07:19):
Going to do a gap year and then

Ant Pruitt (02:07:21):
Go from next year? Well, we'll see. We have no idea. Especially with track season coming too. That may opportunities too.

Leo Laporte (02:07:30):
[02:07:30] Track start too. What a talent. We love you, Jacob. Hang in there. Right on. And we love you

Ant Pruitt (02:07:37):
Offered him Mandy, the cloud says Navy will take him and Mandy the cloud. Navy did offer him a scholarship. I'm going to put that in air quotes, but if you

Leo Laporte (02:07:49):
Need a full ride,

Ant Pruitt (02:07:50):
You need the full ride. You're going to have to serve after that.

Leo Laporte (02:07:53):
Oh, how many years do you have to do?

Ant Pruitt (02:07:54):
And you serve your four years after that?

Leo Laporte (02:07:56):
Four years. And he didn't want to do that.

Ant Pruitt (02:08:00):
[02:08:00] We're not throwing it away, but we know there's an option for that.

Leo Laporte (02:08:02):
Is that the Naval Academy? Is that Annapolis?

Ant Pruitt (02:08:05):
Annapolis, yes, sir.

Leo Laporte (02:08:06):
Wow. So he could have gone into Annapolis, but just wanted to see what else he had going on.

Ant Pruitt (02:08:13):
He actually would like to stay over here, just to be honest with you.

Leo Laporte (02:08:16):
Marilyn's nice. He'd like

Ant Pruitt (02:08:17):
To stay over here in this area.

Leo Laporte (02:08:18):
You should. I'm not sure. I'd want to be in the service right now. You might end up going somewhere. Yeah. All right. Well,

Ant Pruitt (02:08:27):
Maybe on the cybersecurity side. That's it. That's it.

Leo Laporte (02:08:29):
He could wear those [02:08:30] bdu, the ones with the matrix letters going down. Right. Hey, thank you, aunt. You're great. I appreciate it. And I'm sorry that I made you go home, but thank you for being very supportive and generous of that. It's all good. I did it from a ma.

Ant Pruitt (02:08:47):
I do. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:08:48):
Next week. I respect that. I will be in Rhode Island. I'm going out to visit mom. We're moving her into a assisted living facility. She's very excited about that. I am too. She's 90. [02:09:00] She needs the support. And I wanted to be there for the move. So we're going out. But of course, it's the same day. Apples doing its event on Tuesday, and then there's Mac Break weekly, and then on Wednesday there's twigs. So in true podcast or fashion, I will be doing the show from mom's basement. And I'll probably be doing it in my jammies. I'm just saying,

Ant Pruitt (02:09:21):
Are you going to start each cereal with, Hey guys, Hey

Leo Laporte (02:09:24):

Glenn Fleishman (02:09:25):
Are you going to be tearing lobster apart as you're sitting there? Oh, lobster. Lobster. Lobster. Crab or lobster?

Leo Laporte (02:09:29):
Lobster. [02:09:30] You know my craving every time I go back there is for clam cakes. Have you ever had a clam cake?

Ant Pruitt (02:09:38):
I have not had a clam

Glenn Fleishman (02:09:40):
Cake. I've had some good ones. There's Dungeons Clam over here. You've been?

Leo Laporte (02:09:43):
Yeah. I love Dungeness Crab Clam. But there's nothing Crab Crab. I'm sorry, there's nothing. Oh,

Glenn Fleishman (02:09:48):
Clam cake.

Leo Laporte (02:09:49):
Clam cake. You're talking about crab cake. I heard crab cake. Clam cake. No. And I love crab crab cakes, but cake clam cakes. Basically, it's a fried piece of dough with little bits of [02:10:00] clam. And I am, I hope, actually, let me see if they're still open after Labor Day. They do close down for the winter, but these are the best. Oh my God, they're so good. They're so good. And they do have probably the lobster roll. They do warm buttered tail and claw meat. Mayo, old bay fries. There you go. And I might get the clam cake and chatta combo cake.

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:24):
Never ho of it

Leo Laporte (02:10:25):
Before. Never heard of a clam cake. Oh, Lord. They're

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:29):
Like, is a clam pizza? [02:10:30] Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:10:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Pep. A

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:32):
Pizza, clam based

Leo Laporte (02:10:34):
Clam and garlic pizza from Pepe's New Haven. That's it. That's the only way. Maybe I'll go do that. There's a pepe in Providence too, but I might have to drive to New Haven. In any event, that's where I will be next week. Glenn Fleischman, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to join us. We always lie to

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:52):
See you. Pleasure. Pleasure to be here. Sorry for my fake background. I don't know what,

Leo Laporte (02:10:56):
I didn't even notice.

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:57):
Really confusing.

Leo Laporte (02:10:58):
I didn't even notice until [02:11:00] you did that disappearing book trick. It's

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:03):

Leo Laporte (02:11:04):
Wow. Very

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:06):

Leo Laporte (02:11:07):
Very impressive. I'm impressed. G l n n dot f u n is the place to go to find out all of the things Glen does. Don't forget, shift happens. That book is still available. Last few copies, get it before it ships shift happens. Do site

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:30):
[02:11:30] A few short weeks.

Leo Laporte (02:11:31):
Really? You have to take them to the post office. Really?

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:34):
Oh my God. No, we've got that. Thank

Leo Laporte (02:11:36):
God. Oh God. Okay.

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:39):
It is just, by the way, it is 60,000 pounds of books just yikes. Conceptualize the thing. Yikes. I'm nuts touching.

Leo Laporte (02:11:47):
What a great feeling of accomplishment though, when you ship those out. That's

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:50):
Great. Yeah, Martine's even like how many copies would you like? And I'm like, I don't know how many I could fit in my house.

Leo Laporte (02:11:55):
It's a big

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:55):

Leo Laporte (02:11:57):
It's a big book.

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:58):

Leo Laporte (02:12:00):
[02:12:00] All right. Thank you everybody for being here. We do twig Wednesday afternoon, 2:00 PM Pacific, 5:00 PM Eastern until we go to standard time, which is in November. We will be at 2100 U T C. I know some of you are leaving summertime soon, but we stay on our summertime until after Halloween because the candy manufacturers of America ordered it. So you think I'm joking? [02:12:30] Is

Glenn Fleishman (02:12:30):
That right? Oh yeah. Is that

Leo Laporte (02:12:32):
Still a great one? So remember, they moved. They tried to save energy. They expanded the daylight saving time window because everybody loves it. And they were going to make it like the last weekend in October. And the candy companies said, you're going to ruin a Halloween. So they made it. It's easy to remember now. It's always the weekend after Halloween.

Glenn Fleishman (02:12:54):

Leo Laporte (02:12:55):
Spare me. Amazing.

Glenn Fleishman (02:12:57):
Good grief.

Leo Laporte (02:12:57):
Got to get that sugar kids. [02:13:00] Thank you everybody for joining us. You can get this show if you're not watching live. By the way, live TWI tv is a stream. If you're not watching live, you can get the show on demand, TWIT tv slash twig. You can watch it on YouTube. There is a YouTube channel for this week in Google. And probably the best thing is search for Twig or this week in Google or TWI on your favorite podcast player and subscribe to this show. Subscribe to all of our shows. They're all great. And that way you'll always have something you can listen to. You're on your way somewhere. Just say, I want to hear some twig. We thank you all so [02:13:30] much for being here, and we will see you next time. Me in my mom's basement for this week in Google. Bye-bye.

Rod Pyle (02:13:40):
Hey, I'm Rod Pyle, editor in Chief VAD Astor magazine. And each week I joined with my co-host to bring you this week in space, the latest and greatest news from the Final Frontier. We talk to NASA chiefs, space scientists, engineers, educators, and artists. And sometimes we just shoot the breeze over what's hot and what's not in space. Books and tv, and we do it all for you, our fellow [02:14:00] true believers. So whether you're an armchair adventurer or waiting for your turn to grab a slot in Elon's Mars Rocket, join us on this weekend's space and be part of the greatest adventure of all time.

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