This Week in Google 718, Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for TWiG. This Week in Google, we're gonna talk about, of course, <laugh> ai and that weird statement from a bunch of AI scientists and important people saying, we've gotta avoid a mass extinction event. What? We'll, also weird, right? We'll also talk a little bit about Amazon and all the things they're discontinuing, including the celebrity voices I paid for. And then finally, Nvidia and TPUs, CPUs, GPUs and NPUs. What's the difference? We talked chips and more. Next on TWiG podcasts you love from people you trust. This is TWiG is TWiG.

(00:00:52):
This is TWiG this week at Google. Episode 718, recorded Wednesday, May 31st, 2023, clean as a whistle. This episode of this week at Google is brought to you by H p e GreenLake, orchestrated by the experts at C E D W, who can help you consolidate and manage all your data in one flexible edge to cloud platform to scale and innovate. Learn more at cdw.com/hpe. It's time for TWiG. This Week in Google the show, we cover the latest news from everybody. But Google, Twitter, meta, Facebook, Google's hair, my hair. We were doing my hair earlier. Stacey iGen Buffam is here. Hello. Stacy. Missed you last week. Hello, Stacy. On I ot.com. Also Mr. Aunt Pruit missed you last week. Yeah. Hands on photography. Twit tv slash hop. Yep. Yep, yep. Good to see you. Sir, you had the week off, or no? You were a little under the weather. I was sick. Yeah. Sorry, mom. You're feeling better though? Oh,

Ant Pruitt (00:02:03):
I feel much better

Leo Laporte (00:02:04):
Now. I think it's for doing too many pull-ups personally. No,

Ant Pruitt (00:02:07):
Never. Never. Okay. I'll actually make that part of my pick the

Leo Laporte (00:02:10):
Week discussion. Oh, good. All right. Good. All right. We'll save it for then. <Laugh> also with us, the Leonard Tao, professor for the journalistic innovation at the Craig Newmar Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York. Hello, Jeff. Hello. Did we stop the singing? I didn't. Bonito has a day off. John hasn't figured out how to push the button. Okay. <laugh> Got it. I was, there's the, there's the button. You

Ant Pruitt (00:02:38):
Feel better now.

Leo Laporte (00:02:40):
Ah, so why, why, why have the AI scientist now doubled down with a, what is it, a 22 word, press release. It's not even, you know, like a it doesn't explain it or anything. It's just like a statement. A statement released by leading names in ai. It's basically this, I can read it to you. It won't take long. Mitigating the risk of extinction from AI of ex. Look, let me, wait a minute. Slow down. What did you say? Extinction? What the heck does that mean? What mitigating the risk of extinction from AI should be a global priority? Priority. And then they had, I think somebody said, Hey, you guys, there's other issues too. Oh. Alongside other societal scale risks like pandemics and nuclear war. I think honestly, if you're talking extinction event, most scientists agree global warming is the is the next extinction event. And maybe an asteroid AI signed by Jeffrey Hinton, the Google guy who retired. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Professor of career Science at the University of Montreal, Sam Altman, the c e o of open ai

Jeff Jarvis (00:04:03):
Does, he wouldn't sign the moratorium cuz he has to keep working.

Leo Laporte (00:04:05):
So the, yeah, that's what's weird. These are people who did not sign the, the, the moratorium letter in some cases. Martin Hellman from Stanford it's not as long unless Bill McKibbon, he's the guy who wrote about the, you know, the end of the world on, in the New Yorker.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:04:25):
He's the climate

Leo Laporte (00:04:25):
Change, new climate change.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:04:27):
Right. Climate change end of the world. Yeah. Well, okay, so there's nothing,

Leo Laporte (00:04:30):
Lawrence, he's controversial from Harvard. I like him. Oh,

Jeff Jarvis (00:04:32):
It's controversial to

Leo Laporte (00:04:33):
Say Norfolk. I trust him.

Jeff Jarvis (00:04:35):
Destroy mankind. That mean what what bigger B s D can you imagine

Leo Laporte (00:04:40):
Ian Goodfellow, who's a Google Deep mind principal scientist? I mean, this is a, a who's who? Where's the money?

Jeff Jarvis (00:04:48):
Where's

Leo Laporte (00:04:48):
The money? Lex Friedman, the guy does the podcast. Oh,

Jeff Jarvis (00:04:51):
He's just ridiculous.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:04:53):
<Laugh> the guy who does the podcast. My

Jeff Jarvis (00:04:55):
Goodness. <Laugh>. Well, in that case,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:04:58):
My goodness, we should listen to him. So

Leo Laporte (00:05:00):
Dustin Moskovitz, who was one of the founders of of Facebook, he's now his son. Well, yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (00:05:05):
Again, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:05:06):
Bruce Schneider. I love Bruce Schneider, security guru. Maybe we should get Bruce Schneider on to explain why, Bruce, you don't you

Jeff Jarvis (00:05:13):
Need No, you know, you, you need Emily Bender on.

Leo Laporte (00:05:15):
Okay. Emily Bender did. She's not a signatory obviously, right? Well,

Jeff Jarvis (00:05:19):
Exactly. She's not. Cuz she has sanity.

Leo Laporte (00:05:21):
Okay. She

Jeff Jarvis (00:05:22):
Is the University of Washington computational linguist who says, enough boys, enough. You got, you got problems. The problems are present tense. Deal with them. Now. All this is so much chest pumping.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:05:33):
Well, yes, that is. It's, it, it is marketing. But you know, I a statement, it's not offensive. It's just silly

Jeff Jarvis (00:05:41):
<Laugh> barard getting anything out of this, this 20 word.

Leo Laporte (00:05:45):
Well, okay, this is the real cynic in me, but the cynic in me says people like Sam Altman are because it over it. So overstates what's going on with ai, it makes you think, wow, we're we, we actually we're, they could.

Jeff Jarvis (00:05:56):
Microsoft says, we gotta rush. We gotta install this stuff. Oh my God. It's huge. It's powerful.

Leo Laporte (00:06:00):
Well, or just, I think they're giving a lot more credit. If it's just spicy auto Correct. It ain't gonna <laugh> if ain't gonna wipe out mankind off the face of the earth. Right. So this is, I don't, I'm being very cynical by saying this, but it, but it does, it does promote the notion that this AI is really more significant than I I and many others think it is. I agree.

Jeff Jarvis (00:06:21):
I agree. And I think the other thing you they got out of it is regulatory capture is that they're, they're, you know, it's, if you watch Altman non Congress, it's let us help design how to regulate us and cut out everybody else.

Leo Laporte (00:06:33):
But this is gonna scare Chris Anderson of of Ted Talks Grimes, the musician and artist.

Jeff Jarvis (00:06:40):
Oh, well, well then, then that's it. Forget the

Leo Laporte (00:06:43):
Podcast. <Laugh> Aza Raskin. I mean, there are people I respect, oh,

Jeff Jarvis (00:06:46):
Tristan Harris. Of course, of course. Always. But there

Leo Laporte (00:06:49):
Are people I respect on here as well as people. I don't. Well,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:06:52):
And if someone sent you that statement and was like, Hey Leo, look, AI is a big deal. We need Congress to regulate it. Can you sign this statement? I mean, my God, you're gonna sign it. These things come from your friends.

Leo Laporte (00:07:05):
Well, it's also the case that you not I'm not gonna sign it all. Sign it. Well, but no, I'm, what are you saying? You're saying, you're not saying that there is a risk from, of extinction, from ai. Just that if there were one, you should, you should be paid. Well, you shouldn't do it.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:07:18):
There's basically like, look, AI has the potential to be like really problematic and, you know, maybe we should consider that.

Ant Pruitt (00:07:26):
So does the, another big problem. So does social media, all of that has a Yeah, you could I know. Really problematic. I know.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:07:33):
That's why they signed

Ant Pruitt (00:07:34):
It. You know, this is, that's that's

Stacey Higginbotham (00:07:35):
What I'm saying.

Leo Laporte (00:07:36):
<Laugh>, you could safely replace the word AI or the letters AI in here with any number of things. Mitigating the risk of extinction from social media should be a global priority. Alcohol, alcohol, Chipotle, you could put anything in there. <Laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (00:07:50):
Hey,

Ant Pruitt (00:07:52):
He didn't say ta. It

Leo Laporte (00:07:53):
Wouldn't be wrong. It wouldn't be wrong. You,

Jeff Jarvis (00:07:55):
You, you start, you start diamond on, on ka pepe

Leo Laporte (00:07:58):
<Laugh> during Trump mitigating the risk of extinction from kahoi. Peppe should be a global priority. <Laugh>, that's, I mean, you can't say, well, you're right. I mean, global priority's a little higher. Right? But

Stacey Higginbotham (00:08:12):
Especially for cati Pepe.

Leo Laporte (00:08:14):
So I guess the real question, it was

Jeff Jarvis (00:08:15):
Microwaved, huh? Stacy, that's a global threat.

Leo Laporte (00:08:18):
The real question I have for all you, you three is, is there a risk of extinction from ai? Anne? No. No. Is there, Jeff, is there, is there any way you could say there's, I've

Jeff Jarvis (00:08:30):
Been looking Leo, for any scenario that takes me through how we go extinct and honest to God, the only thing I have found thus far is Max Tegmark, I think it was Max Tegmark, m i t theorizing that the AI could at some point decide to cut off oxygen so that it wouldn't rust the machines.

Leo Laporte (00:08:50):
No, but the But you

Jeff Jarvis (00:08:50):
Don't, I can't find any, any

Leo Laporte (00:08:52):
Serial, if humans don't any sense, first of all, you cut off the oxygen to the earth <laugh>. So

Jeff Jarvis (00:08:58):
Well, that's why Yes. That's why this is so stupid. I mean, you

Leo Laporte (00:09:01):
Could, you could wait, you could not open the pod bay doors and then Dave's gonna be stuck in space. But, but unless you give AI's agency, maybe that's what they're saying is just don't let them give them the nuclear codes. The only

Ant Pruitt (00:09:13):
Thing I can think of is like with the food, food supply chain

Leo Laporte (00:09:16):
And, but we're not giving them control of the food supply. Yeah, they're right.

Jeff Jarvis (00:09:19):
They don't

Leo Laporte (00:09:20):
Yeah. Nor Stacey didn't, Stacey didn't. Yes or no? Are they a threat to her?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:09:25):
I think the biggest threat would be sowing discord via de deep fakes and like leading to some sort of war slash global

Leo Laporte (00:09:33):
Cata.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:09:33):
Oh, I agree. And I think that's actually a viable thing. Okay. That

Jeff Jarvis (00:09:35):
That's be, that's already there. We don't need ai. We're

Stacey Higginbotham (00:09:38):
That

Jeff Jarvis (00:09:39):
No, but

Leo Laporte (00:09:39):
Alex

Jeff Jarvis (00:09:40):
Stamos not all the way

Leo Laporte (00:09:41):
There. Alex Stamos, who's the leader of the internet observatory at Stanford there, look, this is what they watch for, is if disinformation says that there will likely be an AI driven avalanche of disinformation and misinformation leading up to the 2024 presidential,

Jeff Jarvis (00:09:56):
Again, we've got plenty of that already. I think it's

Stacey Higginbotham (00:09:59):
Gonna get worse. And I think we're gonna see, I don't think it'll, it's like a, a bay a pig situation. I think what's gonna happen is we're gonna have much more what's it called? Cranky people with weapons during our elections process disrupting things. And yes,

Leo Laporte (00:10:19):
I'm more worried about that. Not ai, that's not,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:10:22):
But Well, no, you're gonna rile those people up with non-truths using Right.

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:27):
Existing and then it's already there. Alright. I's try this.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:10:30):
I know they're there, but,

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:31):
Sorry, go ahead.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:10:32):
I was like, I know they're already there. But look at what's happening with, like, that one lady who went into the target and saw the swimsuit that was laying around in the kids. It's

Leo Laporte (00:10:40):
Giving them power

Stacey Higginbotham (00:10:41):
That led to an escalation. Right. That was almost ridiculous. If you think about, I don't how that got there.

Leo Laporte (00:10:47):
So I've been saying that about Twitter since 2016 mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and I was right, by the way. Yeah. But I've been saying that. I said we've have, we have, you can go back and look. We've weaponized social media. Social media, which was this great thing. We, the bad guys were able to weaponize Russian. And

Stacey Higginbotham (00:11:03):
These are bigger bullets

Leo Laporte (00:11:04):
Farms. Yeah. In

Stacey Higginbotham (00:11:06):
More compelling bullets. So I think, and then

Leo Laporte (00:11:09):
At the time, you have

Stacey Higginbotham (00:11:09):
Enough of them,

Leo Laporte (00:11:10):
People said, well, you're not gonna ban social media because of that. Are you, would you say ban AI cause of that?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:11:18):
No, I would not say ban ai because of what do we do? Do you think we need to understand? Well, I don't, that's a good question. Like, I, I'm like, we need to understand how these things propagate. How we can stop them from propagate. I mean, maybe stopping them isn't the right how to, to diffuse this

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:36):
Issue. Well, here's a scenario, Stacy just guards. What is, this is for weeks. I'm gonna go the opposite way. That there's so much junk out there that no one believes anything and everyone becomes cynical and critical again. And we're actually better off that,

Leo Laporte (00:11:49):
By the way. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:11:49):
So you and I will do that. But then there's plenty of people who are,

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:53):
They've got itchy trigger fingers

Leo Laporte (00:11:54):
And they're just, aren't those believe problems? Not AI or social media? I mean, this is what I was told saying AI is, this is what I was told when I said social media is the problem is then you have to educate the electorate. You have to teach people critical thinking. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I was told the solution isn't doing something that social media, that's just the, the solution is to fix people. I agree. Now, it didn't work so well. And I, and so I understand.

Jeff Jarvis (00:12:16):
Well, I'm listening to Jeff Charlotte's book under tow right now. And Jeff's a really good academic and journalist. And the scariest thing in the book, by far, to me is this silliness you're about to hear is that people argued that the, the, the really rabid Trump followers argue that everything in his tweets is purposeful. Every capital letter, every capital's has meaning. Yeah. And they add up the numbers from the capitol letters. That's QAN for secret messages, right's, qan, those are Taylor Swift fans.

Leo Laporte (00:12:44):
Well, it's human, isn't it? It's a very human thing. When I was a dj the, the craziest people, you know, you'd always, anytime you're in the public eye, a certain percentage of the population, oh,

Jeff Jarvis (00:12:54):
Give them a phone. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:12:55):
So those cr there were lots of people who thought, oh, you're playing that song for me because our brain is very able of making these connections. And the person would say, oh yeah, no, you're sending me a message. I know you are. That's a very common form of mental illness, by the way, that anybody who's been in radio or TV knows. And we've, and 50 years ago, a guy came into the KG radio station in San Francisco. I know you remember this Jeff and shot the place up because he said, you're putting, you're broadcasting into my, I had, I

Jeff Jarvis (00:13:25):
Had somebody next. Wasn't that a George Clooney movie

Leo Laporte (00:13:28):
Time? Maybe. So you had a lady, cosmic lady call you cosmic

Jeff Jarvis (00:13:32):
Lady. She would call and she discovered that my answering machine, cause I was one, I had one of the few ones in, in the examiner that you, she could leave an hour long message. Mm.

Leo Laporte (00:13:41):
So she did.

Jeff Jarvis (00:13:42):
Oh, she did. Or she did. I I found the solution here. Felix Simon on, on Twitter. The one thing I'm gonna, I'm gonna get behind is this. Please consider signing my open letter for a murder moratorium on AI open letters. <Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:13:54):
Absolutely <laugh> call. Here's what the information writes. Martin Pierce. Well, God, you could

Jeff Jarvis (00:14:03):
Afford to read it. <Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:14:04):
Yeah. I could pay for this. Well, yeah. That's one way to get attention. <Laugh>. Yeah, exactly. <Laugh>, the question is, why are very people responsible for AI development suggesting it should be a priority to stop the new technology from killing off every human? Aren't they the best people to ensure that doesn't happen? Yes and no. He goes on to write ai scientists want government's help. That goes back to that regulation. Capture that. Okay. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's

Jeff Jarvis (00:14:36):
Also part of this whole long-termism crap. And accelerationism, let's get there as fast as we can to prove how big we are. Yeah. you know, it's, there's a lot of crazy stuff going on. And again, the academics who are actually studying this, the authors of the stochastic parrots paper, how often do you see them quoted anywhere? Yeah. They're the ones who actually worry about the present case dangers. They warn of them. They say they are present case dangers. But that, that all gets, that's shoved under the rug. Cause we're gonna talk about things that are just supposedly just, just gonna destroy mankind.

Leo Laporte (00:15:10):
Pierce goes on to write. Cynic will say, we shouldn't read too much. This is me by the way. We shouldn't read too much into this statement. Scientists are essentially virtue signaling, preempting political calls for regulation by taking the lead in that campaign. Nailed it themselves. An alternative cynical view, you can choose this one if you wish, is that existing AI firms are simply pushing for regulation to make like life difficult for future entrants. That's regulatory capture. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Either way, those involved with today's statements are taking a big risk because remember, there's this thing called Congress and, but, but

Jeff Jarvis (00:15:45):
Congress can't do anything. A b, they're gonna be part of this. Sam Walman learned from Mark Zuckerberg and has the charm tool, charm tour, and C, they're not going for revenue. They're going for investment. Well,

Leo Laporte (00:15:55):
Pierce says the only logical response that Congress might come up with is to ban ai. Wow. Or regulate it so tightly that even firms already in the business suffer that Surely

Jeff Jarvis (00:16:07):
Alton said, license fine. License us and give me a license.

Leo Laporte (00:16:09):
Yeah. Give me the license. That's surely not what these scientists are looking for. But what do they want per <laugh>? This is a good line from Martin Pierce. Perhaps instead of issuing a single sentence statement meant to freak everyone out, AI scientists should use their considerable skills to figure out a solution to the problem they have, Rob. But I don't think we even know what the problem is. No, exactly. Is either, oh, but okay, let's be hon. Let's be fair. It's not ace. Is there any, but there are some

Jeff Jarvis (00:16:39):
Several concerns.

Leo Laporte (00:16:40):
It's not necessarily but concerns. Is there any reason to say that the, well, maybe we should be looking more closely at this. The threat of ai. I mean, we, we talked about disinformation. That's real.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:16:51):
We know it causes disinformation. We know that people, because we're all lazy, tend to rely on things that make our lives easier without checking it. So we know there's a danger with hallucinations or whatnot. So there over-reliance on ai, over trust in ai, which is ironic given the disinformation. We know that it can be used to scale propaganda. We know that it can be used to, we know that people trust what they see and trust visual mediums pretty highly. So that's a weakness we have that can be taken by that.

Leo Laporte (00:17:28):
Yeah. We have to teach people not to trust photos.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:17:31):
I don't think that's

Leo Laporte (00:17:32):
Possible. Not to trust. I just saw a deep fake thing where you could take a single picture, a still picture of anyone's head, put it on top of somebody else's moving body, and it makes a video. That's indi It's, it's very impressive. We, and even if this is just a parlor trick, this will be something that will happen.

Jeff Jarvis (00:17:49):
Right? Dare, dare I return

Ant Pruitt (00:17:51):
Resolve.

Jeff Jarvis (00:17:51):
Now, dare I say, this is exactly what happened with print. Nobody trusted what came off the printing press. And then we had to invent institutions to imbue trust and faith like publishers and editors and libraries and so on. We don't have those institutions now. We're gonna have to reinvent them because those old institutions ain't gonna work. But yeah, I think people will become grossly mistrustful of much of what they see. And that's fun. Look at the surveys you see about social media. People say, oh, I mistrust most of what I see on social media. Good.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:18:22):
But they still are easily influenced by it. That's what's hard.

Ant Pruitt (00:18:26):
I've seen the other side.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:18:27):
The

Ant Pruitt (00:18:27):
Other thing is too, on social media that people are, they trust just as much. What's that? What's put out there? Because they saw it on Facebook or saw it on Twitter from a so-called trusted source. I've seen both sides.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:18:40):
And you're gonna see people lose their jobs because of this. And then that's gonna create a layer of societal unrest that we already have based on like income inequality. So that is another area where that's a second layer effect, but it's still a very real one.

Leo Laporte (00:18:56):
If we did this actually,

Jeff Jarvis (00:18:57):
Truck drivers, there's still cab drivers. That still hasn't happened yet when we've gone through this before. Yes. We went through looms and threshers. I,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:19:06):
I, I don't think it's gonna be quite to that level. I think what, I've already talked to companies that are hiring like one or two fewer software developers because there's greater efficiencies in thanks to ai.

Ant Pruitt (00:19:22):
That's a good business decision, right? Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:19:25):
I'm not, the point is, there's gonna be trickles. These are small effects individually, but in aggregate, you've gotta think, okay, if you can cut down by the, the workforce in certain industries by 20 or 30% because it makes sense, that's a big change.

Jeff Jarvis (00:19:44):
Well, we may create, as only happens in these cases, Stacy, we end up creating new jobs too. At the same time.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:19:49):
We, we very well could. We very well could. And I hope we do. But there's also a lack of people that are be trained for those new jobs. And what about people that are 55?

Leo Laporte (00:20:01):
Isn't it the case though, that we could go through this very similar exercise with any kind of massive world changing technology? If you said the smartphone instead of ai yeah. In people would lose jobs. Look at journalists,

Jeff Jarvis (00:20:14):
You know, photographers are, have, have lost to all their value. Operators are gone.

Leo Laporte (00:20:19):
I think new techno

Jeff Jarvis (00:20:20):
Books are gone. Really? The big advertising is down

Leo Laporte (00:20:23):
The big world-Changing technologies have these kinds of massive mm-hmm. <Affirmative> impacts. They do, should we, but we don't want to. We don't want stasis. We don't want the world to stop evolving. But

Stacey Higginbotham (00:20:35):
We do need to think about, I mean, think about how right now the economy feels precarious for so many people. And one of those is a fun that is a function of technology and runaway capitalism. But if you think about like the gig economy, and we've talked about this, that creates a lot less economic certainty for people. We see people already struggling for things like buying a house. You could argue that that's a result of technology in the sense that Airbnb has bought up, you know, real estate in cities and caused, I mean like

Jeff Jarvis (00:21:09):
Right.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:21:10):
These are very real effects that are actually like, we could be like,

Leo Laporte (00:21:13):
Oh, I'm not saying they're not, but I'm just saying they'd always, but,

Jeff Jarvis (00:21:16):
But how much do, what do, do are you, or how about how wise are we to be able to understand those effects fully in

Leo Laporte (00:21:21):
Control them? Jeff, have you ever seen, well, we can't, have you ever seen Jeff the pessimists archive?

Jeff Jarvis (00:21:26):
Oh, I love, like I talked, I met him in my office two weeks ago. He's great.

Leo Laporte (00:21:29):
So this, somebody brought this up on Twit on Sunday, and I thought, oh, Jeff Jarvis would love this. So at the bottom is a timeline of, of technological innovations, like the telegraph, the telephone, the camera, and then a collection of clippings from that era talking about the hazards of, you know these new technologies. And it's very, it's a very similar conversation. Yeah. The bicycle, you know, <laugh>. Well, that's the big one. And

Jeff Jarvis (00:21:58):
That's, that's the great one cuz Tristan Harris and his anti-social media film said, who? Nobody freaked out about the bicycle. Well, indeed there was huge

Leo Laporte (00:22:05):
On bicycle fright. What the medical record says of this common phenomenon, it may attack any rider. The remedy is suggested is to avoid looking at the dreaded object. The rider should never watch the wheel or the pedals. <Laugh> <laugh> it, so moral panic is nothing new. I guess you've known that all along Jeff Elevators

Jeff Jarvis (00:22:29):
Chapter four. The next book is,

Leo Laporte (00:22:31):
Yeah. Elevators. all of the things that elevator sickness, cases of elevator sickness are on the rise said Dr. E c Nolton of Chicago. When physicians first began to claim there was such a thing as elevator sickness, their statements were usually discredited. But it is now becoming well-defined. Its effects are found in an increased number of cases of brain fever and disordered nervous systems. Hmm. Everyone has felt a sense of emptiness in their heads. A sensation as if they were falling when riding rapidly in an elevator. Especially if it's going down <laugh>. This is from the Cincinnati, we're elevators

Stacey Higginbotham (00:23:13):
Invented.

Leo Laporte (00:23:14):
This, these articles are from the turn of the century. This is 1894.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:23:19):
Okay. So before, like airplanes are riding real fast in cars downhill.

Jeff Jarvis (00:23:23):
Yeah. There's an amazing book. The four reasons to, to to turn off tv that this was, this is very similar just to get rid of tv. Do I have it here? Somewhere around the here. I do. And one of the reasons was that the, the artificial light was gonna be terrible and his whole

Leo Laporte (00:23:36):
Book. Oh yeah. My mom used to terrible say that. Yeah. Turn on a light in the room because the you're gonna go blind.

Jeff Jarvis (00:23:42):
Yeah, I used to hear that. Which was, which was a PR from the light electrical

Leo Laporte (00:23:46):
Industry. Yeah. Children's addiction to TV presents serious problems. This is from the Valley Times 1957. First of four articles gives the remarks of psychoanalyst Dr. Isidor and zine made to a valley audience recently reported in the valet times. But I mean, I can go on and on. This is, this is

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:07):
Gerry Mander, who was the author of four Arguments for the elimination of Television. Yeah. Television literally enters inside human beings. Listen to the languages so much like, like social media, right Inside our homes, our minds, our bodies making possible the reordering of human processes from inside.

Leo Laporte (00:24:22):
How about jazz? Here's Oh yeah. From the twenties. <Laugh> jazz blame for the delinquency of girls today, <laugh>. So, okay. So we can stipulate that there is often a certain amount of moral panic that goes along. Here's the other thing, technology, but isn't, isn't there some, a kernel of truth in this or no

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:45):
Concern? Stacy's Right. There's concerns and we've gotta deal with those. But the but the present tense concerns, that's what, that's what Emily Bender argues by talking about this, this destroying mankind dinosaur moment stuff. They're distracting from current issues around privacy, around disinformation, around veracity and truth. That's kinda

Leo Laporte (00:25:07):
Also point out that

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:09):
Would normally say is, is a should be a primary concern.

Leo Laporte (00:25:12):
Well, this statement and previous statements from AI scientists has garnered a lot of news print and so forth. We are facing down the barrel of a climate apocalypse. Yes. Yes. That we're doing nothing about that's gonna happen in 50 or 60 years. Yep. And I mean, I guess we just are in denial about it. I mean, that's a mass extinction event. I don't understand why we're so worried about this. Purely hypothetical. It's like Eliza's gonna kill you when we are literally looking at something horrible. Yeah. That no one wants to baptism

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:47):
With nuclear weapons. Take that.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:25:49):
It's because we can't solve any of these. But this is one you can rig your, it's it's a

Leo Laporte (00:25:54):
New, you can wrap your head around it's

Stacey Higginbotham (00:25:56):
Ex Well, you well, I was gonna say, you can ring your hands over <laugh> better. Climate change is not something we can do anything about. It

Leo Laporte (00:26:04):
Is, it's not quite too late. But then it's gonna be, if we don't as an can, take

Ant Pruitt (00:26:09):
Steps for the future

Stacey Higginbotham (00:26:10):
As an individual. There is very little. You as an individual can too. Right. You can call your content critter. Let's, in politics. Right. Well, I know, but the, and this is where, I mean, so sure there is an element of, oh, look at the AI while we're gonna be burning up. But <laugh>,

Leo Laporte (00:26:28):
There's a great

Ant Pruitt (00:26:29):
Also a lot of linear television right now because it's not football season, but we have all of

Jeff Jarvis (00:26:34):
These, sorry, ed,

Ant Pruitt (00:26:36):
We don't have all of, we have all of this, this mainstream news talking about how horrible quote unquote AI is are why isn't there anything out there on in Linearal television in mainstream that says, Hey, let's have some common sense about this. It's, it's always on podcasts like ours where I hear the common sense mentioned about ai. Why isn't there a push wait, what For the regular common sense on podcasts, <laugh>, why isn't there a push on, you know, on N B, NBC A, B, C, whatever. Because it

Jeff Jarvis (00:27:06):
Doesn't, because, because everything we accuse social media of doing it a clickbait needing attention, making money from, from engaging people and exciting them. That was invented by media. That's what they do. Yeah. I'm ashamed of my entire life and career cuz that's what I've been part of. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:27:21):
Also, there's not a lot of great imagery. I mean, I know we could create some awesome imagery, but like <laugh> the, the narrative in television, because you've got such a short timeframe, it has to be a really, well, it's gotta be a big easy to understand narrative and it's gotta have good visuals with it. And that's why linear TV is probably failing us on the AI front.

Jeff Jarvis (00:27:44):
The reasonable this doesn't doesn't cut it on on, on tv. But, but again,

Ant Pruitt (00:27:49):
Because we named off a lot of advantages of ai as well as all of the misinformation stuff out there, we do mention a lot of different Yeah. We do advantages of, and

Leo Laporte (00:28:00):
I also, I'm also one of the people saying, calm down on that, by the way. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:04):
Yeah. I think you, and you said that last week on the show with, with with Chris Ena and I, and I think you, I was thinking about more, Leo I think you're right that it's overdone. The one of my favorite story of the week, and I sent you guys stuff over the weekend was the lawyer who used chat G P T, which

Ant Pruitt (00:28:18):
I Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That was amazing. But it's,

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:21):
I'm waiting for every, every journalist and everybody else to do the same thing. It's, it does, it can't do fact. It's really bad. It's, they're o they're so overplaying its capability. Yeah. It sounds like us. And that's pretty, pretty darn and amazing. And there's neat stuff we could do with it. Yep. But it's really limited what it could do. I think, I think your point last week was exactly right, Leo,

Leo Laporte (00:28:41):
Here's that,

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:42):
That's where everything's

Leo Laporte (00:28:43):
Around to back it up by a guy named Rodney Brooks, who's a legendary roboticist. And once one time head of the ai department and m i t, his actual title. He was the director of the computer science and artificial Intelligence laboratory at m I T until 2007. He knows what he's talking about in his head. This is in the I e e Spectrum Journal. Just calm down about chat G p t four already and stop confusing performance with competence. He's saying exactly. This, he actually wrote a great article and now it's amazing six years ago, the seven Deadly Sins of predicting the future of ai. Mm. And we are giving into every one of those sins.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:29:29):
But you know what, that's what humans do. We always, performance always wins with us. Yeah. And for competence, think about it. We're, that's just what

Leo Laporte (00:29:40):
We do. Well, I've said this before I've been saying this for years that people often think I've been, in fact I've been saying this for more than 25 years. People often think of a computer as a thinking machine. There's even a computer company called Thinking Machines. And, and it's really important to understand they don't, that's an anthropomorphism. Computers don't think, they basically are very simple calculating machines. They just do it so fast. The the looks like we think we project onto them. They're actually thinking, but they're not. They're just performing calculations incredibly rapidly. Right. Even including ai, it's not thinking, it isn't anything close to ranking

Stacey Higginbotham (00:30:21):
Those calculations when performed super. I mean, you could argue that our brain is not thinking it's just performing analysis of inputs really fast. Okay. I mean, I guess we're, we're neurological the way our brain has developed in I'm not, I'm just thinking about No, I agree. Sure.

Leo Laporte (00:30:39):
This is an unsolved computer science question, which is what is the difference between a rapid calculator and the human brain is the human brain just so sophisticatedly calculating that. We don't see exactly how, but we could eventually.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:30:53):
Well, and we think, I mean, think about like how dogs, like they're finding dogs that can detect like various diseases, really early covid. Yeah. So the same thing. I mean, we don't give dogs the same vaunted, you know, well actually we might, I don't know, as unfortunate

Leo Laporte (00:31:11):
Conversation always like, often goes down to, well, there's a well human has a soul and the machine doesn't. And I think that that people reject that, that like, well you can't, that's not, that's, that's magical thinking. But I do think there may be something that we do in our brains that is very, very hard from a von Noman really machine to do. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:31:31):
Well, okay. For Aon Noman machine. But I also would say, I would argue that we're no more special than any of these other things. The only reason we think we're so special is we're judging us. Right. If you think about I I like, if you think about animals octopuses, the way they think they're whole separate, I mean, way their brain has developed to process their environments. I mean, what are we doing? We're actually really crappy at processing our environment. Cuz otherwise we would've done something about the damage that we're causing. In some ways, I'm like, well,

Leo Laporte (00:32:06):
We've designed, we've been designed in such a way to respond to certain environmental stimulus like a, a tiger in the brush mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and, and not to other environmental stimulus. And so we don't long-term thinking and stuff. There, there are, there's a, this is the realm of philosophy as much as it is science. Yeah. But I mean, there's some say, well, which we need more discussion of in this, in this arena. Yeah. What, what humans, what distinguishes humans from animals is that we know we're going to die. An animal doesn't know it's gonna die. We know we are,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:32:38):
We don't know that. We don't know that dogs go off, depend on how they themselves and so do wolves.

Leo Laporte (00:32:42):
Well, they know when they're sick and they don't feel well. But humans go through life with the knowledge that they will eventually die. Animals don't have that.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:32:50):
How did We don't know that. They watch their go out to die. Take a look. Elephants, those elephant funerals they have, I mean, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:33:00):
Once their sick and die, they know they're dead. But do they know that elephant? They're

Stacey Higginbotham (00:33:03):
Gonna die mourn the loss of their kin.

Leo Laporte (00:33:05):
Yeah. Yeah. They, because they're dead. But do they know that they're going to die? You don't

Stacey Higginbotham (00:33:09):
Think that if they're, if they can mourn, they don't recognize that that is could have, I could be next.

Leo Laporte (00:33:14):
Oh, maybe. Yeah. All right. So we can't, we, we can't know that, I guess <laugh> and there are others. No, I'm just saying what people have said. Let's put it that way.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:33:22):
No, I know. Yeah. I

Leo Laporte (00:33:25):
There's others who have the opinion that it was, I mean, by the way, that's what some have given as the explanation of the Cambri explosion was there was sudden realization that we could, in fact, I I think Leonard Schlein said that in one of his books. There are those who say are not our, our sense of time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> you know, we don't, I mean, many scientists and maybe some philosophers who think, who understand that there is no such thing as time. Time is what we think <laugh> happens, but there, but it isn't. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, that is our impressions. There was a really good interview that your, your buddy Lex Friedman did with

Stacey Higginbotham (00:34:07):
<Laugh>,

Leo Laporte (00:34:09):
With Steven Wolfrem, in which Wolfrem pointed out that really what, what we think of his time is just our averaging of all the of all the events that happened all at the same time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we, we, we overlay this sequentiality on it. It's very interesting. It's a physicist's point of view, not necessarily a philosopher's point of view. Although the point is, I I do think there's something different from what a computer does. Now, I, I interviewed the the guy who invented graffiti Jeff Hawkins, who's also a neuroscientist, and his, his premise, he wrote a number of really interesting books on brain neuroscience. Is that the thing that distinguishes humans? Our our rate of calculation is much slower than a computer, but we are massively parallel. And he said the mistake we're making is trying to take a v Noman machine, which is much more sequential.

(00:35:05):
And, and what we really need to do is build massively parallel machines. So he started a company, Numenta, you've heard of this, Stacy. I know. Cause I think we've talked about it mm-hmm. <Affirmative> that was designed to create memory chips that worked more in parallel, like our brain does. Not, not achieving success yet, but in any event, the, the the point being, I think, and maybe you're right, maybe it's just a kind of a subjective and and self-centered point of view. There is something different about the way humans think than, and machines think. And I don't think making a machine think faster or with more data is gonna ever achieve whatever it is that we've got going on consciousness. It that seems to be, I

Stacey Higginbotham (00:35:48):
Would argue

Leo Laporte (00:35:48):
You could, but

Stacey Higginbotham (00:35:49):
You could maybe argue maybe what we're doing. So computers deal with exact information unless we're talking about probabilistic computing. But let's pretend we're not, because that is a whole different realm of both chip design and programming. But in general, although AI is probabilities, we're, we're teaching them to use exact calculations to

Leo Laporte (00:36:11):
Well, and quantum computing probabilities is in fact also not. Okay. Quantum

Stacey Higginbotham (00:36:15):
Computing isn't real yet. We're not gonna go there yet. There. I'm just talking about what's available to us. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:36:19):
Ok. It's there, it's just not a scare. There's a scale.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:36:22):
Okay. Yes. <Laugh>. I'm like, no, don't bring that in yet. Okay. So what we're good at is seeing things in making an intuitive leap and not being able to account for our work. What we're getting with, with AI and what makes us uncomfortable is we're actually allowing Theis to make those, what we think of as intuitive leaps they're making based on calculations on much of the data and making a probabilistic assumption. So in some ways they're, they may be computing like us. I don't, I don't, I'm, I'm kind of thinking out loud on this. So, but we trust human intuition a lot sometimes. But then we also want, like, we value the data driven aspects of a computer. So we might be having, our issue is, we've always thought of computers as like neutral sources of data. But now that they're making these probabilistic assumptions that mimic intuition, we're like, whoa, this is scary. This is, this could be a problem. And I don't know if that's really true.

Leo Laporte (00:37:26):
I would submit this. We could

Stacey Higginbotham (00:37:27):
Just trust them as intuitive things.

Leo Laporte (00:37:29):
What we're seeing and so far, and I think it's gonna prove to be the case, is that by itself, whether it's a self-driving vehicle or Chatt writing a novel, they're not very good in conjunction with human thinking. They're a very good partner. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right.

Jeff Jarvis (00:37:46):
I love, I love

Leo Laporte (00:37:47):
The premise of that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And I think it's a better way to think of these as, as a, a way of augmenting human abilities. But leaving the human out of it almost always is disaster. I mean, you left, let a Tesla drive yourself. Well, we can't

Jeff Jarvis (00:38:00):
Be out of it because our data is what feeds it. Writing.

Leo Laporte (00:38:03):
Yeah. But that's not sufficiently in it. I

Jeff Jarvis (00:38:06):
Think. Well, well, but, but I, I, I agree with you. But, but I also think that Leo one, one of the interesting things is that, not that I, I think what's interesting about AI is not that it produces good content, it produces bad content. And in that sense, it reflects our biases and our presumptions and our mistakes and foibles over time. And that's what's interesting about it. We're not doing that. What we're thinking, it's always, it's now a computer brain. It's gonna produce perfect content. It ain't, cuz it's based on

Leo Laporte (00:38:30):
Us. Oh, it's us. It produces a amalgam of what it gets from us. But it's not, it, it's not thinking about it. It's not processing it, it's just statistically generating it. And I don't think that's particularly useful.

Jeff Jarvis (00:38:44):
I watched a a video of the, the chief scientist at open AI who used to be, I forget his name, suddenly it's on the rundown. But it was to Microsoft. It was an hour long about how all this works. My favorite part of it, the only funny part of it was he said that you can ask it to do things like give it a first break up your queries into, into pieces. Don't give it the monster query. And then he said, you can tell it. I want you to be smart. I want you to have 120 iq. He said, don't tell it that you want him to have a 400 iq. Cuz then it'll get into all kinds of sci-fi crap. <Laugh>. Geez.

Ant Pruitt (00:39:21):
Greg Crow Hartman was on Floss Weekly couple weeks ago, and I'm pretty sure you were quite a fan of his being Mr. Lenn colonel and Awe. But I remember him mentioning AI and he wasn't really sold on it. And he said something along the lines of AI is just pattern matching sort

Leo Laporte (00:39:38):
Of Yeah, it is. Yeah. No, that's essentially what it is. Yes. You know and it has some value. So <laugh>, it's Paul Throt said, you know, Stephen King has a terrible time ending his novels, but probably with a little help from ai, he could come up with an end Yeah, yeah. For his novels. Yeah. I think Steven would still have to write it. Yeah. But maybe the AI could come up with some solutions that Steven had a partner thought

Ant Pruitt (00:39:59):
Of. Have a partnership there.

Leo Laporte (00:40:01):
I mean, I think that's useful, but I, I think AI always needs to be done in a context of a human Absolutely. As an assistant. Well, and

Stacey Higginbotham (00:40:08):
I, I, I mean, how many people are actually not including, granted Yes. People, companies are doing like really crappy jobs with chatbots, but they were doing that before AI got good. Right, <laugh>. True, true. So like, if something really matters and if it's core to your product or core to your competency, I, I don't think we'll see AI without humans. And I think, I mean, like,

Leo Laporte (00:40:36):
In which case like I'm

Stacey Higginbotham (00:40:37):
Using, so

Leo Laporte (00:40:38):
Yeah, that answers two of our qualms, which is, okay, so for every ai ai there's gonna be a human. So don't worry about job loss, maybe job change, but, but humans will, well, no,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:40:47):
There will still be job loss if you're going to take, you know, massage jobs if I doing 40% less work. Yeah. Well, I mean,

Leo Laporte (00:40:54):
But there still needs to be a human taking the output of the AI and massaging it or using it.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:41:00):
No, I think there'll be a human making sure the output of the AI fits with the standard.

Leo Laporte (00:41:04):
Well, we'll see, my guess is, and this has been, it depends on the job too, in full self-driving, in other areas where AI has let us down, that you may be surprised by how much human input is needed going forward. So that's one. It also solves the problem that mass extinction, unless the human is a evil genius intent on the destruction of mankind. Well,

Ant Pruitt (00:41:28):
That's a different story. Story

Stacey Higginbotham (00:41:29):
Totally could happen. But

Leo Laporte (00:41:30):
That is the AI or the human, that's the problem.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:41:33):
Well, it just, it makes us more scalable. Like if you think about it makes our That's a good point. Workloads.

Leo Laporte (00:41:38):
So you'd be a scalable evil genius. I think I see your point here. Yeah. <laugh>,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:41:43):
I mean, I can scale up and write more thanks to ai. Right. I can have it generate ideas for

Leo Laporte (00:41:49):
Me. Does that put people outta work though? I mean,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:41:52):
Well, not in my case, no. Because I'm ethical and I'm not venture-backed. But if you're,

Leo Laporte (00:41:58):
And this is one of things lot a seen that are out of work or ended up getting fired because red Ventures decided to use ai. But I'm gonna say, know how well did that work? Yeah. I'm gonna say that that didn't work out so well for Red. Not as

Jeff Jarvis (00:42:08):
Well as Schwartz, Esquire, the lawyer.

Leo Laporte (00:42:11):
Right?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:42:12):
Yeah. But I think, I think under our current economic regime, if you can cut out costs and people are more expensive, well, actually AI is not as economical as we think it is right now. It's very, yeah. That's very expensive. And we don't really talk about that a lot. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:42:29):
That's,

Jeff Jarvis (00:42:29):
Didn't Ravino bring

Leo Laporte (00:42:30):
That up about the Yeah, well we talked about it on Sunday. Yeah. With Daniel Ravino. I brought it up too. I keep bringing it up. The, you know, this is not a cheap technology. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> it. Well, interesting part of it is not so expensive. The part that's expensive is creating the model models. But actually, once you have a model, you can, you can run queries against the model more cheaply. That's

Stacey Higginbotham (00:42:52):
Still expensive. Well, it's still, I mean, creating,

Leo Laporte (00:42:54):
Sam Altman says it's 10 times more expensive than a Google search at at chat. Yeah. So it's still still pricey.

Jeff Jarvis (00:43:00):
So, but, but Bruce Schneider had a really good place enslaved talking about where the action's gonna be is in the small open source models

Leo Laporte (00:43:07):
For that reason. Right? Yeah. Right. by the way, Schneider's, one of the people who responsible to control Schneider is one of the signatories to that statement, which I don't, I love Bruce. I have huge respect for him

Jeff Jarvis (00:43:20):
As to

Leo Laporte (00:43:20):
What Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:43:22):
Well ask him why I did it.

Leo Laporte (00:43:24):
Yeah. I mean, we gotta get him on. I'm

Stacey Higginbotham (00:43:25):
Betting

Jeff Jarvis (00:43:27):
Remember that. Get on Emily Bender, get on Timney Guru. Get on Margaret Mitchell. Get on one of those. Jason, Jason,

Leo Laporte (00:43:34):
You, you write this all down for Techn News Weekly. Jason and Micah. Bruce Sni versus Emily Bender by itself would be Wow. Great. I think

Stacey Higginbotham (00:43:43):
Must see tv.

Leo Laporte (00:43:44):
Must see tv. Yeah. I think this is one area where I think we can do a good job, better job than mainstream media because we're maybe we're a little more in informed and a little more skeptical. Yeah. And we have three hours and we have three freaking hours to fill <laugh>.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:44:00):
We don't have to have three hours. It's three. I just want y'all to know <laugh>. It could just be two. I didn't

Leo Laporte (00:44:05):
Know it was three. Good. I'm gone for two this week. You'll be glad to know Stacy, which is why I am gonna take a little break, a little teeny tiny time out so you can go get a waffle.

Jeff Jarvis (00:44:16):
I'm gonna have a chip question for Stacy if I

Leo Laporte (00:44:18):
Can. And a chip question, chip question for Stacy. I think Anne has one too actually. What's Stacy? Believe it or not, what, what's Stacey doing? Stacy,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:44:27):
My child brought me a lemon bar that they made brought their clouds.

Leo Laporte (00:44:32):
Wow. So

Stacey Higginbotham (00:44:33):
Yeah, you take that ad break. I'm eaten by lemon

Leo Laporte (00:44:35):
<Laugh>. Take that ad break. I'm having lemons. Let's make let's like make some lemonade out. Huffed ovens, sour <laugh>. Our show today brought to you by HPE e GreenLake, orchestrated by those great experts at C D W, the helpful people at C D W. Understand your organization needs simple management over its big data. But you know, this is an interesting world we live in. Some people need their workloads on-prem for organizational requirements. If that's the case, it could be challenging right. To organize and optimize your data. And that's where CDW can help your organization. By consolidating and managing all your data in one flexible, unified experience with the HPE GreenLake Edge to Cloud platform. The experience you get with HPE GreenLake is unique cuz no matter where your data applications live, you can free up energy and resources with automated processes and streamline management.

(00:45:34):
We all can use some more streamlining. I know I can. Not only that. HPE GreenLake creates a seamless cloud experience among multiple data environments, thanks to the AVI as a service model that meets your remote workforce on the edge. And with unrivaled scalability, you'll see an instant increase in capacity, allowing for greater flexibility and accelerated business growth so your team can tackle bigger priorities like innovation. When you need to get more out of your technology, p e makes data transformation possible. C d w makes it powerful. Learn more at cdw.com/hpe e Let me thank CDW so much for supporting this week and Google and all of our twitch shows. Cdw.Com/H p e use that address so they know you saw it here. Cdw.Com/Hpe. Do you wanna do a chip story? Are you through with a lemon bar? Yeah. Let's

Jeff Jarvis (00:46:34):
Stacy a question I wanna, I wanna explain if if she's, if she's not too puckered up to talk,

Leo Laporte (00:46:39):
I think she's in a, in a lemon bar combo. Sweet lemon bar or she's in a lemon bar coma right now. Yeah, she is. Yeah. She's not, she can't hear a word she's saying. We can't even hear her. She's,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:46:47):
Oh, did we finish the ad? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:46:49):
<Laugh>. Sorry, did you finish the lemon bar?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:46:52):
No, I started writing something.

Leo Laporte (00:46:54):
Oh. Are you a little a d d d a d d. Just outta curiosity.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:46:59):
I'm a I am a lot a d d

Leo Laporte (00:47:01):
Who is, who here is not a d d? It's always me. Just you. It's always me. You're not, not not ad everywhere I go. Everybody else is a d d everywhere I go Boy, bad study. It says it's the fluoride in the water od

Stacey Higginbotham (00:47:18):
I'm on a, well I don't have fluoride now.

Leo Laporte (00:47:20):
Lemme just have more. So maybe I can be like that. That's it, Leo. The AI is gonna figure out a way to put too much fluoride in the water and we're alls the extinction event. Oh, okay. There

Jeff Jarvis (00:47:30):
It is. Nailed it.

Leo Laporte (00:47:31):
Nailed it.

Jeff Jarvis (00:47:31):
Alright, here's my dumb question for Stacy. Oh yeah. Was it accidental that AI said, oh, these graphic chips are good at this stuff that, that avidia happened to make, or Avid is now the, the first trillion dollar company of AI because their chips are reuse in all of this stuff. Right? Those chips already existed before for graphics and games and things

Leo Laporte (00:47:57):
And, and then it was Bitcoin, right? So remember <laugh>? Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:48:00):
Okay. So remember how Lao was talking about the humans are really great at parallel processing Uhhuh <affirmative>. To do graphics, you have to be great at parallel processing. So graphics chips are different from like Intel's chips, Uhhuh, <affirmative> because they're, they do a bunch of jobs in parallel.

Leo Laporte (00:48:16):
They do chunk of data. They do

Stacey Higginbotham (00:48:17):
Their ca Yeah, they do a lot of So Nvidia in this is why, back when I was at Fortune, I wanted to put Jensen on the cover of Fortune back in 20. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:48:26):
You were right.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:48:26):
They're like, oh, too early. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:48:29):
You were so right.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:48:31):
<Laugh>. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:48:31):
The way she's talking, Jensen Wong, the founder of Nvidia, who is gone from being the $200 man to being the 30 billion. Man, it's really a great story.

Jeff Jarvis (00:48:40):
You should, you should write to all those editors who stopped you and say, yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:48:43):
I mean he Jensen,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:48:44):
They already knew

Leo Laporte (00:48:45):
Real. Yeah, they know They blew it <laugh>. They

Jeff Jarvis (00:48:47):
Know, but he can't tell you.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:48:50):
So, so that's why graphics strips and graphics strips remember like the seminal moment in computer vision was back in 2012 when it was actually Jeff Hinton. They did resonant, was it ImageNet? Sorry. ImageNet. And they basically were able to prove out Jeff Hinton's theories about how quickly and how well a computer could make, could name things like recognize an image. So they were able to do that thanks to graphics chips. And they're massively parallel processing. So it is not a secret or it's not like

Jeff Jarvis (00:49:28):
A No, no, no. I'm just, I I guess what I'm trying to ask is this, it's, it's, they looked around and said, oh, graphic chips already do that. If you were gonna design chips from scratch mm-hmm. <Affirmative> to do what AI does now, would it look a lot like a graphics chip or was it just incredibly good timing to have really good graphics chips that then had other uses?

Leo Laporte (00:49:49):
And I'm gonna throw in a little extra on this one. What is the difference between A G P U and A N P U or when Intel's calling a vpu,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:49:59):
A neural, a neural processing or a visual processing?

Leo Laporte (00:50:02):
Yeah. These are the new AI chips in, in addition to gps.

Jeff Jarvis (00:50:05):
Right, right. Good.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:50:06):
I don't know what the difference between a GPU and a,

Leo Laporte (00:50:09):
I'm glad you asked. I'm

Stacey Higginbotham (00:50:10):
Guessing, I'm sorry.

Leo Laporte (00:50:10):
<Laugh>. <laugh>. No.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:50:13):
And it depends on, so we built the algorithms for the silicon we have. Right. And then we're like, it's kind of a market and ED, where they're running in lockstep. Right? So now we have things and we're like developing chips. So we're like, oh, okay. So you have to move when a computer is doing a calculation, you have memory, right? You leave stuff in memory. Right. Next to, there's two levels of memory. There's on chip memory and then there's the memory. Like that used to be tape or

Jeff Jarvis (00:50:41):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:50:43):
Other memory disks.

(00:50:45):
Discs. Or even it's not on the same chip, it's not right next door. Right. Right. So you gotta go if you've gotta, so that memory is limited. So you can only store so much information and the chip, if it's massively parallel, it can pull all of that in and then it needs more. But that's like IO that to get from, you gotta go to the next building over to get your more of the data that you need to process mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and bring it over to the room that's next to the big processor. Right. Right. Let's just think of a chip as a series of rooms. So you could design a chip with a bigger memory room. That's right. That's accessible to your processor. There's also things like the way we do our algorithms, like there's things like matrix multiplication, that type of math is really important. So you can build chips that are optimized for better matrix multiplication. But we're also like, we're also developing new algorithms and new ways to do this all the time. So you actually might find something that's really effective, like from a either cost or from a power or performance perspective. And you might actually be like, I wanna do this so much and I'm Google, I'm gonna build a whole new chip design for this. Was this tensor?

(00:51:59):
It could be tensor, but it could be like if some genius at in or at Google decides they wanna build a whole different type of algorithm, they might. And if, if they decided it was the best algorithm for search, it would be economically viable for them to design a completely new chip just for that. And this was

Leo Laporte (00:52:18):
This what has done with the NPUs, because they're basically f PPGs, they're programmable processors. Yeah. So you can optimize them for new, new workloads or new styles of calculation.

Jeff Jarvis (00:52:30):
So Stacey, when you pushed Nvidia cover story, what was your pitch then?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:52:36):
My pitch was they're enabling AI evolution. They're one of the only contenders because at the time Intel didn't have a great graphics option A M D did, but Intel or sorry, but Nvidia was doing just so well at it that, and there was very little competition that wasn't a startup, that they were gonna win for a long time to come. Did

Jeff Jarvis (00:53:00):
You see these other uses for graphics processors on the horizon at that time?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:53:05):
You saw it starting, I mean, once again, once that image net competition happened in 2012. Yes. And I went to a couple, they called it nips. They used to, that's sexist. So they don't call it that now. I went to a couple of their shows and listened to like the researchers talk about the types of chips they wanted. So then I was trying to work with like all the, because all these startups were coming with new architectures.

Leo Laporte (00:53:31):
So basically I'm gonna see if I can summarize in a, this simple way. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:53:36):
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Was that,

Leo Laporte (00:53:39):
Lemme, I think I can do this in a, in a sentence. So the way computers, since time and Memorial have been designed as something called the Von Noman architecture, which is basically a single instruction. Von Noman machine has a processor, it has memory, it might have storage, and it's a single pipeline. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's like an assembly line for calculation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Very quickly we realized, especially once graphics became popular, Intel did something called the m mx extensions. We realized, or cmdi extensions that we should be able to operate instead of on a single thing at a time, on a mass of a, a ti a texture, for instance, in a, in a graphics environment in one instruction, operate on all of that data. So they created these more parallel forms of, of processing. And that's when the first graphics processors came along.

(00:54:31):
You might probably remember the 3D FX voodoo card. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And these graphics processors were just basically glorified multiprocessor machines. All we've done is, and that's what Nvidia actually Butch bought, I think, bought 3D FX and, and incorporated their technology along with a lot of others. Created these massively parallel processors. They're not vno machines, but they are, they're just many, many, many vno machines all working at once. And what it turns out, if you're doing a specific kind of thing, not graphics, but machine language training large language models and gans and things like that, you can specialize even further in these graphics chips into something that's designed for particularly artificial intelligence applications. Those are NPUs or TPUs or what, in until calls vpu, they are basically GPUs that have been specialized for the kinds of calculations you do in machine learning. Am I, is that accurate? Thank you. Stacy, is that a fair way of summarizing that?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:55:30):
That's much better. No, that no, Stacy, yours was, was was really informative. Alright. No, and I used to have this, go ahead. Oh, go ahead. No, you, well, I was gonna say there, and there's all these cool new things coming down the pipeline cuz one of the issues is when you have all of these parallel processing, you have to figure out how to tell everything, how to work together and do the job. Right. And so you see like the rise of these fabrics inside, right? Right. And communicating what's going on and moving all that data around is becoming a bottleneck. So your next generation, like, we're not there yet, but I'm really excited about like, photonics on Chip. I know you're excited about quantum Leo.

Leo Laporte (00:56:09):
Yeah. Photonics too is a little closer actually. Yeah. Yeah. Both Microsoft and apple have fabrics to support this kind of movement. Apple's. What Apple's done is actually put, put the NPU on chip. They call it the machine, what do they call it? They have a name for it. A machine learning module or something like that. And so that's one way of doing it that's perhaps even faster. Cause it's integrated Apple's making these giant chips that have everything including RAM on one.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:56:37):
Well, now what you're talking about is the rise of chips,

Leo Laporte (00:56:39):
Right? And SOCs. Yeah, yeah,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:56:42):
Yeah. It's basically, I mean, we would call it a system on a chip, which is a bunch of chips, you know, on a

Leo Laporte (00:56:47):
Big on one dye chunk of, or

Stacey Higginbotham (00:56:49):
Dye. Thank you. I was like, I had a big chunk of wafer, what do you call that?

Jeff Jarvis (00:56:52):
<Laugh>? Where does tensor fit into this?

Leo Laporte (00:56:55):
It's Google's brand

Stacey Higginbotham (00:56:56):
Custom designed. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:56:57):
Yeah. For their neural process, their version of

Jeff Jarvis (00:57:00):
This. Yeah. All right. One more question. I, I'm, I'm sorry, but this is, you know, Jeff Lauren's moment now put this into the discussion of neural networks. Is it just a whole bunch of massive processing going on in massive processing? <Laugh>?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:57:17):
So a, a neural network. I mean, when we talk about ai, a lot of what we're talking about are neural networks, which Uhhuh is,

Jeff Jarvis (00:57:24):
That's why I'm asking. Yeah,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:57:25):
It's, I mean, a neural network is just,

Leo Laporte (00:57:28):
So this is where the computer scientists are saying, well, we know the brain is very, very parallel. Well, this is so why, so maybe that's how that the best way to simulate learning in a machine is to do this highly parallel processing. So it's,

Jeff Jarvis (00:57:45):
It's, it's parallel.

Leo Laporte (00:57:46):
We're trying to duplicate neurons, right? That's the word. Neural the chip

Jeff Jarvis (00:57:49):
With, with the chip was parallel, was capable of parallel. And now you wanna do a whole bunch of parallels.

Leo Laporte (00:57:54):
Well, and then Stacy brought up matrixes, and that's really a better way of describing it. So parallel sounds like lanes that are going in the same direction, right? These are all inter interconnected in a variety of ways. They're more like a grid. Okay. Right? Yeah. And so it's much more flexible in, in the kinds of parallel processing. Look it we're, Stacey is obviously a neural network, is more of an expert on this than I am. And I'm just trying to understand it and understand it in layman's terms. It's part of the computer revolution that's going on. It really is. Yeah. Go ahead, Stacy. Well,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:58:26):
And, and we have all these branches that we, we've tried. And what's really fun, I think what's really fun is right now we're seeing like there's one way to train and run a model that's on these massive Nvidia type cards. Right? And, you know, y'all know I'm excited about tiny email, but there's a lot of research going into other places, like how do we shrink those models and mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, it's turning out that the way you build the models on the big machines are probably not the best way to build models that are gonna run on the small machines, which means we're going, so I just sat through like three hours. Oh, that's

Leo Laporte (00:59:02):
Interesting, huh?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:59:04):
Yeah. So like, things like back propagation and pruning are really good ways to, like,

Leo Laporte (00:59:09):
This is what Google was talking about, about apps at Google io was how we get these massive models into your phone. Right? And it's, I didn't realize it's different. You change the way you do the model

Jeff Jarvis (00:59:20):
Itself, which is also part of the Bruce Schneider article, is all the open source being able to use it on, on smaller machines of any sort and, and have a real impact,

Ant Pruitt (00:59:29):
Right? What is considered small machine versus big machine. That's what I'm asking.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:59:33):
Yeah. And, and the other thing you have to be real clear about when we're talking about this is there's the training, which is the building of the model, and then there's the inference for the running of the model. So what I'm, so when you're talking about training, it's all in these big computers, but the, the cutting edge thinking that it, I I'm listening to research on is actually let's figure out how to train on these small computers. But when we train, we're gonna actually run completely different types of algorithms and, and help, help establish weights and focus for those algorithms for tiny machines. What Google's talking about with their large language models like Gecko and Unicorn and Gemini, and I don't remember how they got from big to small. They're, they have two, I think they talked about having two different models. And one is just shrinking it down for d to run inference on smaller and smaller machines in small machines. Most people, when they say small machines, they're talking about like a gateway, which is still running like a computer chip. And I used to

Jeff Jarvis (01:00:45):
Have a gateway computer,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:00:46):
Sorry, not that

Ant Pruitt (01:00:48):
<Laugh> with the, so

Stacey Higginbotham (01:00:49):
Like any machine with an application processor that runs Linux. When I talk about things like tiny ml, I'm talking about like running on a freaking sensor. So like TensorFlow,

Ant Pruitt (01:01:01):
Okay.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:01:03):
Yeah. Yeah. So I, and I'm trying to think of how small TensorFlow light can go. I don't think it's,

Jeff Jarvis (01:01:09):
Well, it's in your phone, isn't

Stacey Higginbotham (01:01:10):
It? Yeah. So, and your phone is actually, like, when people talk about like running machine learning at the edge, that's usually where they're talking about. And it's freaking impressive. What I am talking to people about is running machine learning on like a micro process of like a microcontroller, because

Ant Pruitt (01:01:25):
See, I wouldn't've assumed a smartphone is a small computer. I mean, other than the physical forms. I know, right? But I, I would, I would've said it is the smartphone is, is a bigger computer because of how all of the process and power it has. Right?

Leo Laporte (01:01:41):
The issue is, so what Bruce is talking about in this article and in general is because these models have been so big and requires so much horsepower mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, they, it's dominated by Google, Microsoft, Facebook, big companies with big capitalization that, and big data and

Jeff Jarvis (01:01:58):
Big data machines.

Leo Laporte (01:01:59):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And what Bruce is saying is there is a movement and actually ironically it's Facebook's la l l a m a Lama, I guess you pronounce that, or Yama, that is, is opening the way to this. This was actually leaked out and now as being widely used by the open source community, because now the idea is to take the power away from, or not at least to keep them from owning it entirely. Google and Facebook and Apple and, and Microsoft and Amazon mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and let small developers work in this space. Because if you don't do that, then you just don't get innovation. You just get what Sam Altman clearly wants, which is to, you know, the big guy's owning it. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:02:40):
And good luck trying to control that. If you want to try to stop ai, cuz he's gonna destroy everything. Well, he's gonna be a whole bunch of little factories law.

Leo Laporte (01:02:47):
Why surprises me that Bruce signed that statement, to be honest with you, because I, I,

Jeff Jarvis (01:02:52):
I

Leo Laporte (01:02:52):
Agree. He's an advocate for, it's

Stacey Higginbotham (01:02:53):
Such a Nabi pamby statement though. It's like, yeah, this could be a problem.

Jeff Jarvis (01:02:57):
That's not quite Debbie ba

Leo Laporte (01:02:59):
Hey, said, Bruce writes, this isn't the first time companies have ignored the power of the open source community. Sun never understood Linux. Netscape never understood the Apache web server. Opensource isn't very good at original innovations. But once an innovation is seen and picked up the community can be a pretty overwhelming thing. The large companies may respond by trying, and this is what they're doing to retrench and pulling their models back from the open source community. But it's too late. We have entered an era of large language model democratization by showing the smaller models could be highly effective, enabling easy experimentation, diversifying control, and providing incentives that are not profit motivated. Open source initiatives are moving us into a more dynamic and inclusive AI landscape. Maybe he should get Bruce on floss. Well, we can try. Yeah. That would be a really, well, Bruce has been on show Listen, <laugh>. Yeah. Bruce has been on our shows before, I'm sure. But doc knows Bruce. This article is from Slate by Bruce Schneider. Oh yeah. And Jim Waldo I bet you, I bet you Bruce would like to come on and talk about this, cuz that's really important. You don't want, I mean, honestly, that's the threat <laugh>. It's not to mass extinction of the human race, but it might be to extinction of small companies

Jeff Jarvis (01:04:10):
And individuals or, or vice versa. This is where there's no moat. We talked about that two weeks ago, that there's no moat right around the big guys because the little guys can do it. And it also goes back to the stochastic parrots folks, once again, as much as many rivers do, where if you have a smaller models with smaller data sets, that's more manageable in terms of being able to audit what they're doing, where you get your stuff, what's happening there. And so a small version of AI may be a really more interesting way to look at all of this.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:04:38):
Now, I wonder if you fast forward into the future, if you've got, like, cuz with open source, there's a liability issue, especially if you give these jobs that are more complicated. So there's, there's a quality assurance kind of aspect to this that you could then build. I, I'm just picturing my, like in the future world and I'm like, oh man, I need a chat bot to answer my phone while I'm, you know, reporting or editing or something. Right. And to evaluate if it's a good story. So who am I gonna hire? Like what company has the best chatbot for that? To mimic my voice to see if a story's interesting and worth taking a note on or interrupting

Leo Laporte (01:05:14):
The call. So, you know, you have Tesla doing full self-driving, but then a, a guy named George Hotz creating a, but no,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:05:20):
They're not,

Leo Laporte (01:05:21):
Pardon me?

Stacey Higginbotham (01:05:23):
They're not doing full self-driving.

Leo Laporte (01:05:24):
Well, they're attempting, but then there's a guy,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:05:26):
Oh, I thought you were saying that it was real. Sorry. I was like, no, it's

Leo Laporte (01:05:29):
Not <laugh>. Well, but this is the point, is the big company attempting to do this, and then there's this guy, George Hotz, who's created a little company that has an open what? Open source self-driving. You just put their phone in your window self-driving car system. Oh

Jeff Jarvis (01:05:44):
God, that scares me.

Leo Laporte (01:05:45):
Well, I think it's at least as good <laugh>.

Ant Pruitt (01:05:48):
That's, it's scary. But in it's innovation though. Oh

Leo Laporte (01:05:52):
Yeah. And it's as least as good as, as full self-driving. George started ai, he has left since, but George Hot's iPhone hacker, an Elon Musk antagonist. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (01:06:05):
Wow.

Leo Laporte (01:06:05):
That we like. Yeah. That's what the Verge calls him. But yeah, he created this incre. Yeah, there he is. That's George or Geo Hot or Geo Hots. He did this. He, he, he unlocked the iPhone at the age of 17. He was a hacker. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> got in trouble with Sony for unlocking the PlayStation three a couple of years later. And Musk tried to hire him then he said, no, I'm not gonna work for you and I'm gonna make a better autopilot than Tesla <laugh>. Which I, as far as I could tell actually is true. I respect that. Yeah. So his new company will be called, I think the Tiny Corporation. He says under a thousand lines under three people, three times faster than Pie Torch, which is the Python library for machine learning for smaller models. There's so much left on the table. So that's why

Jeff Jarvis (01:06:56):
He's not just doing self-driving. He's doing the

Leo Laporte (01:06:58):
Models. He's doing the models. That's why you want this to be op you know mm-hmm. <Affirmative> shrunk down maybe. But in

Jeff Jarvis (01:07:03):
Europe, the European regulation that's coming out is, there's some discussion that it's gonna ban open source

Leo Laporte (01:07:10):
Versions. Yeah. That's a mistake of ai. And, and it's

Jeff Jarvis (01:07:13):
Gonna put liability on every model that's created. Every action that anybody then does with it is gonna go back to the source model maker. Did they give

Ant Pruitt (01:07:21):
A reason why they would want to ban the open source side

Leo Laporte (01:07:24):
Of

Jeff Jarvis (01:07:24):
It? Because they don't, because they wanna be able to control,

Leo Laporte (01:07:26):
They don't want an AI extinction event. But so to circle all the way around now think about what that statement really was, is this stuff's

Jeff Jarvis (01:07:35):
Scary. Boys do it. You

Leo Laporte (01:07:37):
Can't let little guys do it cuz it's outta control. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:07:40):
Let us, let us take care, care

Leo Laporte (01:07:41):
Of it. Exactly. So now we know. I mean, I, I don't now I'm no longer thinking That's the cynical view. I think that's, oh no, it's the right view. I think that's the, that's the right view. Sad to say. All right. Ch can we change the subject a little bit? You guys can vote if you want to go. Hey boss.

Ant Pruitt (01:07:58):
I wanted to ask Ms. Stacey. Oh, you

Leo Laporte (01:08:00):
Had good article. Let, let's pull that up. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:08:04):
The headline is The Spectrum X Ethernet switch offers lossless transmission via congest via new kind of congestion control, says Nvidia. And when I saw that, the first question came, well, two questions. Does this even matter? And number two, why does it matter if it, if it really does matter,

Leo Laporte (01:08:26):
By the way, I love it that Nvidia names their chips after great female computer scientists of the ages. This is the Grace Hopper Grace. They call it copper. Yep.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:08:37):
So this is the ZD net article. Yes. The Spectrum X. Yes.

Leo Laporte (01:08:40):
Jetson Wong showed off the first iteration of the Spectrum X the spectrum four with 100 billion. Wow. 100 billion transistors in a 90 millimeter square die. And this is, this is style like

Ant Pruitt (01:08:54):
Ridiculous thing.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:08:55):
Oh, okay.

Leo Laporte (01:08:55):
This is fabric, I think, I think this

Stacey Higginbotham (01:08:56):
Is, this is the fabric issue. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, this is a routing. This is basically, you gotta move that data real fast if you're talking about parallel processing that much stuff. And the video is

Leo Laporte (01:09:08):
Very smart. Awesome. Which they, they have pivoted. And so they were the gaming company and then they saw the opportunity in, in self-driving vehicles. They do a lot of chips for cars. The

Stacey Higginbotham (01:09:20):
Part runs at 500 watts. Y'all, that's

Leo Laporte (01:09:23):
A lot high. It is so much power. It's for an a networking operation.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:09:27):
This isn't Yeah. This is inside a super computer. Basically this is a switch using ethernet, which is more capac. This is where photonics would actually help. Cuz if you had a photonic thing, you wouldn't have to move the It wouldn't, it wouldn't be So don't think it would run as hot. Yeah. And it would be faster and you wouldn't have to have such smarts in there. But that's cool.

Leo Laporte (01:09:45):
Yeah. I think this is, you know, so thing's first in-person keynote in a long time, a couple of days ago mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. In fact, I wish we'd covered it. We just kind of jammed up with keynotes. Yeah. But they're really firing on all cylinders. It's

Stacey Higginbotham (01:09:57):
Amazing. I was almost at Computex.

Leo Laporte (01:09:59):
Really? Oh

Stacey Higginbotham (01:10:01):
Yeah. I decided not to go last minute though.

Leo Laporte (01:10:03):
Wait. I get, you know, I get, I get an invitation every year from one company or another. I think so did

Ant Pruitt (01:10:12):
I get 'em

Leo Laporte (01:10:13):
Mic Micah got one too. And you

Ant Pruitt (01:10:15):
Got one Computex.

Leo Laporte (01:10:16):
I'm always about going cuz I don't, it's like, well, I don't know. I don't wanna take this free trip. It's like a junket. So I don't know.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:10:24):
Conky Tax was a sponsor on my show. I should mention that last month. Mm-Hmm. They were a sponsor.

Leo Laporte (01:10:29):
Well, that's a little different then. They're a sponsor. That's different, I think now.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:10:32):
Yeah. But I still would've had to pay for my own trip. I don't,

Leo Laporte (01:10:35):
Well, there are a lot of companies that want to give us free trips. I always turn it down

Ant Pruitt (01:10:39):
Miss Stacy.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:10:39):
Yeah. I never take a free trip. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:10:41):
He, he just said that, you know, Nvidia was quote a gaming company, but now they're sort of pivoting into the AI side of things. And it made me think about a m d AMD has had its issues with its rise in performance here and there. But is there a way for them to get into the AI side of things at some point? And

Stacey Higginbotham (01:11:02):
They do have, I mean, they do have chips that are used in ai. So a Jensen or Nvidia is not the only company. Like people do use AM MD chips for training and whatnot. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> it's, they're just, they don't have as great of a marketing department. They don't have a CEO as charismatic and a, and a black leather jacket. <Laugh>. But I wouldn't know She's the coolest

Ant Pruitt (01:11:22):
CEO though. I

Stacey Higginbotham (01:11:24):
Thought She's Lisa Sue. Oh yeah. She's, she's not. But she's not. I've met both of them. You know, when you meet Jensen Right. And he has got, he comes on real strong. Right. And Lisa, Sue, you know that this is a really smart, sharp person Yeah. Who is gonna like, you don't wanna mess with, you don't wanna disappoint Lisa Sue, but they're not the same mm-hmm. <Affirmative> from a marketing or storytelling perspective. But real fast with this switch, I should note what Nvidia is doing is they're actually creating underlying hardware that is the full cloud product. Right. Okay. So when he's talking about two data centers and like creating an AI data center, NVIDIA's creating that AI data center. So if I'm Amazon, I'd be looking out at this and going,

Leo Laporte (01:12:12):
No kidding. What about

Stacey Higginbotham (01:12:14):
Like aws? That's

Leo Laporte (01:12:15):
Interesting. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:12:17):
So I just thought I'd share that with y'all cuz y'all would think that's

Leo Laporte (01:12:19):
Nice. Yeah. They unveiled a super computer platform basically. In fact, yeah. At the end of the keynote, Jensen Huang says, it's too much. I know. It's too much. <Laugh> <laugh>. That's crazy. Sales forecast for the current quarter, 4 billion above analyst estimates that put Nvidia into the trillion dollar company club, which is a very small club good for, you know, good for them. I've been saying for some time that Nvidia is very impressive because they are firing in all cylinders. It's gaming crypto for a long time. I mean, but, but they were lucky because as crypto fell off the map, AI came on mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and replaced that market for 'em. Yeah. I, they, and

Stacey Higginbotham (01:13:02):
They also, way back in 2008 when I, I went out and visited them and they had, I, I called it a sexy processor. It was a mobile processor. They basically have been trying to push heroin. The Integra was in style processors. It was

Ant Pruitt (01:13:16):
Devices.

Leo Laporte (01:13:17):
Yeah. I have Integra in my Invidia shield. Yeah. That thing is six, seven years old and it's, it's as fast as a modern, I forgot about Tera.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:13:25):
Yeah. But they've been pushing this style of computing since like 2006. They're like, yeah, what do we got? We got the world's best hammer. We're gonna put this hammer. We everything needs a hammer. Yeah. Right. But they were Right. And graphics you don't bet against graphics and on the phone. And then they want, they were like, we're gonna put it into like laptops. Because that was the available computing infrastructure they had. They were like, corporate presentations are gonna need better graphics processors. Look at slideshows, look at this, look at YouTube. And then heck just, they were

Ant Pruitt (01:13:58):
In general at, at one point in time, just cause crypto died off, you still needed something that's gonna process red eight k footage, you know?

Leo Laporte (01:14:06):
Yeah. They're smart because they have had these inroads into all these different markets. Then it doesn't matter if crypto goes away, you know, they're not leaving the gaming market either. The other thing Huang announced is a special AI for non-player characters. Oh boy. <Laugh>, they call Ace. Oh boy. They're gonna give it to a gaming companies fact. The first one is a Santa Clara California company called that will use it to create non-player characters in their games that hear what you say, uhoh Uhuh and respond by it. Oh, do, that's cute. Cute. I moral panic that's coming up Next. <Laugh> Envidia Ace will listen to what the gamer says to a com character converted into text. Then dump that into a generative AI program to create a more natural off the cuff response. So they, they're not giving up on gaming any either. That's awesome. Soon. And of course they have the best graphics cars right now on the market. Right. The 40 nineties. Yeah. Yeah. They're with Ray Tracing. And

Stacey Higginbotham (01:15:03):
This is why Intel invented tried to like, do graphics with Larbi and failed. And then they, they made that did they,

Leo Laporte (01:15:12):
They have a low end video card now. Intel does. It's not bad. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:15:15):
Finally. It's low cost. No, it's, it's better than

Leo Laporte (01:15:18):
It was at the Ace. I can't remember what they call it. No Intel. I can't remember. G P u I can't remember the new one.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:15:23):
That's if you were in the chip world. A you saw the need for this arc. Yeah. Way back in the day. And they, they were trying, they tried so hard.

Leo Laporte (01:15:34):
Oh, remember they tried mobile and they were such a failure. They end up selling off the division. I don't And now

Stacey Higginbotham (01:15:40):
They're going to factories.

Leo Laporte (01:15:41):
Yeah. You know, well,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:15:43):
They started out and they kept their fabs the whole time. And they were really innovative until they got Brian, what's his name? Sich.

Leo Laporte (01:15:52):
Cni. Yeah. His, now they get packed gel. He was

Stacey Higginbotham (01:15:55):
Terrible for Intel. Although, but Gelsinger,

Leo Laporte (01:15:59):
There's like we were talking about this on windows Weekly. There's a little trouble at the top. Apparently <laugh> in Intel. Serious leadership in issues once. Here's the story from the Wall Street Journal again. You know, every time I read about tech in the Wall Street Journal, I always have to think, well, who's is being Gord here? Once mighty Intel struggles to escape Mudhole <laugh> like a, like a what, like a hippopotamus or a dinosaur is stuck in the LaBrea tar. Its rivals such as Nvidia have left the chip company far behind. C e opac, Gelsinger, Aimes to reverse firm's fortunes by, as you said, Stacey, vastly expanding its factories. Gelsinger said we had serious issues in term of leadership, people, methodology, et cetera. Yeah. That's

Stacey Higginbotham (01:16:51):
Pretty. So he's, that's him throwing, no, that's him throwing

Leo Laporte (01:16:54):
Up Throw shade at

Stacey Higginbotham (01:16:54):
Brian under the buds. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz he was, he was terrible. Yeah. Like, he was, he had no sense of innovation. He was just, and then he was like, we need to get to like, I don't remember if it was three nanometers or what they were going for. And then they were like, well, we're having trouble. He's like, no, we're not. And then just carried on. So that is a problem when you're dealing with like actual physics.

Leo Laporte (01:17:16):
And then here's the problem speaking of physics with crashing this is the stock performance of Nvidia. Oh yeah. A m D into Intel <laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (01:17:29):
So what happens to Intel? Does it, does it die? Is there a, a scenario where

Stacey Higginbotham (01:17:32):
It No, no, no. There're

Leo Laporte (01:17:34):
Well, eventually it could. I mean, Gelsinger says we're trying to turn into a service business. That's what the Foundry business is. We have no history of this. No, no. In expertise at this. So it's a

Stacey Higginbotham (01:17:44):
Look at ibm. That's all I have to say. That's what they did

Leo Laporte (01:17:47):
Right. At ibm. Yep. Yep. There's services business. Well,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:17:50):
No, IBM's, IBM has N I'm so sorry, y'all. I love IBM's research division, but IBM has nothing going for it right now. No. But it's still limping along. And it will for quite some time.

Leo Laporte (01:18:01):
Devork always said that the only thing keeping IBM alive is it has a lot of patents. But I suspect those patents are expiring. They can't be that much use these days. So maybe that, that might be what ends up putting them under anyway. Yeah. Intel's getting eaten by T S M C and a lot of other companies. Nvidia interesting article. I like the, I like the tar pit analogy. <Laugh> <laugh> gel Singer's growth plan is rooted in the expectation that the chip demand will come roaring back. That's part of the problem too, isn't it? The demand is, is falling off the face of the earth. People aren't buying PCs, PC sales are down 20 don't to 30, 40% way down. Don't have to.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:18:48):
Intel's issue is they threw everything at PCs and servers and now server, and they're still doing great in servers. But all of our new server monolithic jobs are ai. Like that is the big driver of compute demand, AI and crypto. And they don't have like their automotive stuff. They have stuff that runs in there, but the rest of the world is consuming chips that aren't Intel and will be consuming chips that aren't gonna be Intel chips forever. So they gotta make a Jesus the,

Jeff Jarvis (01:19:20):
I just, I just was gonna make a P D P joke. A deck joke. The PDP 11 came out 53 years

Leo Laporte (01:19:27):
Ago. Yeah, I have. Wow. A P D P I think it's a, I can't remember if it's an eight, nine or a 10, but it's really a raspberry pie <laugh>. It's actually a little faster. A little faster than the original running on my on my office. Wow. Coming up in just a bit. Is cyber security an unsolvable problem?

Jeff Jarvis (01:19:52):
That was quite an awesome invidious segment.

Leo Laporte (01:19:55):
Yeah. Thank you. Quite Stacy.

Jeff Jarvis (01:19:56):
Education was a coordination. That was a very great chippy. It was very chippy show. I like Chip is Stacy.

Leo Laporte (01:20:00):
Thank you, chippy. Now we're gonna talk the philosophy and cybersecurity. Scott Shapiro's new book, which by the way is Great. Fancy Bear Goes Fishing. I'll tell you a little story from that book. I've been reading it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, but he also proposes that you'll never have a secure computer. And we'll talk about that when we come back in just a bit. First a plea an encouragement. Help me with this aunt, cuz you're the commu community manager. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> of our, of our great twit club. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Ant Pruitt (01:20:31):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Club Twit. That is sir.

Leo Laporte (01:20:34):
This was something Lisa came up with a couple of years ago, her thinking being, we would like to be supported by our audience. You know, we're an ad supported network. I like that. I like that We can give shows away for free. That even if you have not a penny to, to two pennies to rub together, you can listen to our shows and we want that to continue. Yep. But at the same time, advertising dollars are going way down. It's not just us, it's every, it's across the board. Across the board. And we think the Club is really our future. So I wanna invite you to join Club Twit. I think it's a very good deal. Lisa really wanted to make sure that you got value for a dollar. So primarily the first benefit, and we thought this would be the big one, is no more ads. Right? You get all the shows. We do completely add free no trackers in there, no ads. It's yours. And you get to listen to it. That's, I think a great benefit. Turned out that wasn't the only benefit. In fact, my mind may be not even the best benefit. We had this great discord, the

Ant Pruitt (01:21:35):
Magical Discord server.

Leo Laporte (01:21:37):
Twits always had this amazing

Ant Pruitt (01:21:38):
Conversation. Always

Leo Laporte (01:21:40):
Had an amazing community. And this is really a place for the community to, to get together. You know, we have our forums, we have our masks on instance, but this is where club members get together. Not only to talk about the shows. You know, we have a club twit chat right now going on This Week in Google. But also about all of the subjects people are interested in. Geeks, particularly, there's a whole AI section, anime, OTOs, coding and comics, food and fitness movies and music. There's

Ant Pruitt (01:22:07):
Even sports in there. There's sports talk in our discord. Did you know that sir?

Leo Laporte (01:22:11):
Sports and Sports Ball?

Ant Pruitt (01:22:13):
Yes. Geeks talk and sports talk Sports.

Leo Laporte (01:22:16):
I bet there's a lot of pickleball going on there. There's been

Ant Pruitt (01:22:18):
No, there's been nba there's been f1. I mean, they go added in this right

Jeff Jarvis (01:22:22):
Now. Queso. Far more important.

Leo Laporte (01:22:24):
Queso. There's a queso chat. I don't think it has a dedicated queso channel. But anyway, we could get one <laugh> because s in charge. So that's the second benefit that free shows the Discord. Not everybody who joins Club Twit goes in the Discord. No, I didn't. I really encourage you to, I think sometimes it's a little intimidating to people. Yeah. You go, I don't get it. But you will be welcome. And it really is a great way to communicate. Can, can

Jeff Jarvis (01:22:48):
I ask a question here, aunt? Sure. Will the whole drama around Leo's hair be the kind of thing that just club members will get to watch?

Ant Pruitt (01:22:54):
I guarantee it <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:22:56):
So, okay. That's the other thing

Jeff Jarvis (01:22:57):
We have. We don't wanna miss that

Leo Laporte (01:22:59):
Special content only for club members. It's the, the TWIT plus feed that we offer to all club members. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So yeah, it's stuff like the things that happened before the show and after the show. The bloopers. The, and would

Jeff Jarvis (01:23:11):
We, would we stop the show because there's noise next door? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:23:14):
But it's part of the fun of it. If you're watching live, you get all of that. But not everybody can watch live. So we excerpt some of that stuff, but we also are able, because we have revenue from the club to you. I mean, a lot of what that club revenue goes toward is developing new shows. We don't wanna, we wanna bring you new content. So that's why there's Michael Sergeant's hands on Macintosh in there, Paul t's hands on Windows, the Untitled Linux show, the giz fizz Stacy's book club every other month because we can

Jeff Jarvis (01:23:39):
Space started there.

Leo Laporte (01:23:40):
Well, and we can launch shows out of there. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> quite literally this week in Space started sound speed subsidized by the club. But as it built an audience, we were able to put it out in public right now in the club. Home Theater geeks with Scott Wilkinson. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we'd love That was a show we we produced for a long time. Couldn't develop an audience for, or an advertising base for, but it had, I mean, had a good audience. It just wasn't as big as it needed to be. So we're, we're doing it in the club. And that's, that's the other benefit is that, that money. And I promise you that's where that money goes. It goes to keeping the lights on, keeping the staff employed, developing new programming. It's really important to us. We're now almost 8,000 strong. We're growing. It's

Jeff Jarvis (01:24:17):
Awesome. It's awesome.

Leo Laporte (01:24:18):
We're growing. But I have a vision. I have a dream <laugh>. Sorry,

Jeff Jarvis (01:24:22):
Wait a minute. <Laugh>. <laugh>. I've

Leo Laporte (01:24:25):
Been to the mountaintop. I have a vision, let's say that, of getting, I would like, we, right now, it's a little more than 1% of everybody who listens to our shows joins the club. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I, I don't ever expect it to be half even. I'd like to see it be 5%. That would be, which is

Jeff Jarvis (01:24:41):
Public radio territory. Yeah. Six to 12%. Public radio. I don't

Leo Laporte (01:24:45):
Wanna have to beg as much public radio

Jeff Jarvis (01:24:47):
As, as generous as those tote bag toting.

Leo Laporte (01:24:52):
We don't give you tote

Jeff Jarvis (01:24:53):
Bags. Frout eating anymore lattes sipping public radio people, people. Aren't we?

Leo Laporte (01:24:58):
I think well see one of the things, we are very much more a specific narrowcast niche of technology. Yep. I think technology's really important. I think if you wanna know what's happening, we are gonna be a great re We are a great resource for you. I came up this morning with a new tagline need, what did I write? Oh, I thought it was so good.

Jeff Jarvis (01:25:18):
That ca you

Leo Laporte (01:25:19):
No, no, no, no. I, because Lisa said we need a, we need a quick one. A D d I see. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (01:25:26):
The home for a d d. That's us.

Leo Laporte (01:25:28):
Need to know what's, need to know what's next. Tune in Twit. How about that? Yeah. Turn on Twit. Something like that. Right. This is where you see what's happening today. What it means for you in the future. And I think we really do a good sensible even-handed job. Yes. And in more importantly, informed job with all of the experts we have on this show this show and every show we do. I think we are an important thing that I want to keep doing. The club.

Jeff Jarvis (01:25:54):
We're an important thing. We're an

Leo Laporte (01:25:55):
Important thing. That's,

Jeff Jarvis (01:25:57):
That's a good slogan. <Laugh>, we important tune in. We, we hear you.

Leo Laporte (01:26:03):
So if you would help us out, that would be great. I know I hate to beg, you know, I'm terrible at, at doing this and I don't like to do it. But this was,

Jeff Jarvis (01:26:12):
This was a good be.

Leo Laporte (01:26:13):
Really. I think it's important. I believe in what we're doing and I wanna keep doing what we're doing. And I think increasingly it's gonna be up to the audience to make sure that that happens. Happens. Yeah. Twit TV slash club twit. And if you <laugh>, if you love our bags <laugh>, you'll love Club Twit. That's all, that's all I can say.

Ant Pruitt (01:26:33):
Thank you Mandy de clown. Good

Leo Laporte (01:26:35):
Stuff. Mandy's great. We you know, I love our community. Yeah. And that's one of the reasons I like doing the club, cuz I really love those people. I

Jeff Jarvis (01:26:43):
Love it so much. When it's, when it's not Showtime and I'm saying something on, on Macedon or Blue Sky or Twitter and it's a, it's a twit fan who's there with the reference. With the understanding. With the joke.

Leo Laporte (01:26:55):
Yeah. With the gig joke. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:26:57):
It's just great to see that you folks everywhere.

Ant Pruitt (01:27:01):
Community, baby community. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:27:03):
Yeah. Less le more community <laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:06):
No, we love Le

Leo Laporte (01:27:08):
<Laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:09):
Geez. And yes.

Leo Laporte (01:27:11):
Geez. No, I agree with you. No, I agree with you. It's hard.

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:13):
I agree with hearted. I

Leo Laporte (01:27:15):
Agree with you.

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:15):
Hardhearted higgin button.

Leo Laporte (01:27:18):
No, that is true. All I, all I am is the guy who got it started at this point. I want to go on much, you know, beyond that. I don't have any attachments. He was like, I want it to go on while I go on cruises while I go away. I go away. You go on. How about that?

Ant Pruitt (01:27:36):
Thank you. Doug M

Leo Laporte (01:27:38):
Doug m what did Doug m say? Doug

Ant Pruitt (01:27:39):
M in Discord says the best. $7 spent every month for the past two and a half

Leo Laporte (01:27:44):
Years. Yeah. Thank you Doug. M I appreciate it. Thank you. Wow. Has it been two and a half years? Thank you. It's more than two. We started more than two, I think. Yeah. It's almost two and a half. Yeah. Oh. And there's one other thing. If you subscribe, please tell your spouse. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:27:56):
We have family plans now,

Leo Laporte (01:27:58):
But do you know about the spouse? Oh

Ant Pruitt (01:27:59):
Yeah, there. Yeah. There's an issue. <Laugh>. yeah, if you're gonna subscribe to Club Twit, make sure you know, I, Hey, I'm gonna go ahead and subscribe to Club Twit. Hey, queen Pruit, I'm subscribing. Okay. Tell the

Leo Laporte (01:28:09):
Spouse. Cuz because we had a guy subscribe and his wife said, what is his fraudulent charge? <Laugh>. Yeah. <Laugh>. And it costs us time and money when you get a charge back. Yeah. And then actually if you get enough charge backs, Stripe starts looking funny at you. Yeah. So please tell your family when you buy Twitter, tell whoever else looks at your checkbook. Oh. Oh, that weird charge. That's, that's okay. Yes.

Ant Pruitt (01:28:32):
I promise. It's

Leo Laporte (01:28:33):
Okay. I promise.

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:35):
It's

Ant Pruitt (01:28:35):
Just

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:35):
Club Twitter. Did the guy did the guy resubscribe.

Ant Pruitt (01:28:38):
Yes. They're good to go.

Leo Laporte (01:28:39):
Did they? Because we, we didn't know. We didn't know exactly what to do. I remember Lisa was kind of going back and forth on what, how to handle this. They're

Ant Pruitt (01:28:45):
Good to go. They're good

Leo Laporte (01:28:46):
To go. Okay. <laugh>. Oh

Ant Pruitt (01:28:49):
Boy. But that was funny, Joseph

Leo Laporte (01:28:51):
And

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:51):
Three marriage counseling. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:28:53):
With your subscription. Yeah. I'll come to your door. So I started reading this and actually I kind of threw, Lisa was there when I started it and I read it out loud and I kind of threw the Kindle across the room when I Oh boy. <Laugh>. Oh boy. Scott J Sapiro. He is he's been a developer. He, he, you know, he's not ignorant of technology. He's a technologist, but he's be, can't become a philosopher of law. But he did write a new book called Fancy Bear Goes Fishing The Dark History of the Information Age in Five Extraordinary Hacks. It starts with the first worm ever. Which you may remember happened in the I think in the eighties with oh, now I've forgotten his name. He went on to be a co-founder of Y Combinator. Hmm. but he the Morris Worm, it was called Robert Tappin Morris Jr.

(01:29:46):
He, the, there is an excerpt, which I really enjoyed of the chapter on Fancy Bear. Let me see where that is. Cuz that I would recommend everybody, Reid, cuz that's a, that is a wild story. But there's an interesting premise in this that I'm not sure, I don't know, I'm not sure I agree with, and it's kind of, he's, you know, he's a philosopher. You know, philosophers like to argue from first principles and build up a, a story. The, this, the i e e spectrum has the strange story of the teams behind the Mira botnet. I would, I say this is well worth reading. This was a, a, a botnet that we talked about that. And you remember Stacy cuz it took over Iott devices. It took over routers and was a, it was a nightmare. It was all because <laugh> a student at Rutgers didn't like the fact that upper class students got prior to enrolling computer science electives.

(01:30:48):
<Laugh>, he was pissed. So he DDOSed the entire, he had 40,000 bots primarily in Eastern Europe and China, and leashed them on Rutgers computers. <Laugh> and his, so his classmates couldn't get through to register. He did it again the next semester. And in fact, he said, the reason I can do this is cuz Rutgers has a really inferior DDoS protection company. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. They should use mine. He has a DDoS Protect. Did he graduate? He dropped out. That's Norma how that story goes and was caught. We talked a lot about it when he was caught. He was from Fanwood. I don't know you know where that is? In New Jersey? Oh, I know, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right on the train line in New York. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. he was you know, kind of one of those kids. A lot of computer kids are like this, who was super smart, but it was a D H D and didn't do well in school probably because he was too smart.

(01:31:48):
But as usual, I got this too when I was a kid. The teachers attributed it to laziness. Right? Apathy. You're not living up to your potential. Leo didn't help. So he sought refuge in computers, taught himself outta code when he was 12. He started playing Minecraft in ninth grade, started hosting servers. He was DDoS one of his Minecraft servers or DDoS. That's how he learned about distributed denial of service attacks. So he studied them, started writing them himself. <Laugh> got into Rutgers for computer science. But ended up as you know DDoSing Rutgers eventually got caught by the F B I because he, it spread. I mean, he, he basically was the first to create DDoS as a service. He was renting his DDoS capability to other people. What was that? Oops.

Ant Pruitt (01:32:40):
Low impact. There was some, I'm sorry, go ahead. I just had a weird brain thought about Dawson Tools. <Laugh>. There was one that had a popular name.

Leo Laporte (01:32:53):
So he, he actually got in a fight. There was a gang fight between other DDoS, gangs, lizard Squad and Vdo s they created something called Poodle Corp. <Laugh> that could do 400 gigabits a second, which is a lot of bandwidths to throw at any server. So this kid decided I'm gonna take down Poodle Corp. In any event he got caught by the fbi, the FBI's, Anchorage, Alaska, and New Haven Cyber Units. First shut down Poodle Corp. And and then the Mariah Group who survived the, you know, in this gang war started attacking. And the special agent Peterson said, oh, now that he's taken down Poodle Corp, let's go after the Mariah Botnet. They did catch him. Hmm. but what's interesting is he did not serve time. He pled guilty. He was indicted twice, once in New Jersey for his attack on Rutgers once in Alaska for the Mariah botnet violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act facing up to 10 years in federal prison.

(01:34:02):
He pled guilty, expressed remorse for his actions. He apologized for the harm he'd caused businesses Rutgers the faculty, his fellow students. DOJ said, we're not gonna ask for jail time but maybe they could help us out. <Laugh> the government said we're gonna give you five years probation, 2,500 hours of community service. But that community service should include continued work with the F B I. They had already logged a thousand hours helping the F B I hunt and shut down Miri copycats. They contributed to more than a dozen law enforcement and research efforts. In one instance, the founders of the Mii botnet, there were three of them. Peras, Josiah and Dalton helped stopping the nation state, a nation state hacking group. They helped the F B I prevent DDoS attacks aimed at disrupting Christmas holiday shopping. No jail time, just community service.

(01:35:02):
The most poignant mo This is all from the book. The most poignant moments in the hearing were PERAs and Dalton singling out for praise. The person who caught them PERAs, this Rutger's kid said two years ago when I first met special agent Elliot Peterson, I was an arrogant fool believing that somehow I was untouchable. When I met him in person for the second time, he told me something you will nev I will never forget. You're in a hole right now. It's time you stop digging. Hmm. It's an in, it's a great story. And as people who, from the outside, we covered this with the security now and I think on this show too. And, and so watching this from the outside to actually read what's inside. But this book has more going on with it. And this is where I, why I'm bringing it into the class today.

(01:35:48):
Because <laugh>, is it gonna be on the final? I'd like to share this with the class. No, I'm not the professor. I'm just a student. Myro <laugh> there's an interview with him in ours, Technica. And he, he basically, his premise is because these are touring machines you know what a, I'll let Stacy explain what a touring machine is named after Alan Touring, who by the way, described how computers should work before there even was an existing one. It was all a mental exercise for him, but he was Right. Wow. because they're touring machines and that any computer that you might use is general enough to, to, to be touring what they call touring complete. It's impossible to protect them. Any touring complete device will always be subject to hacking.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:36:42):
Yes.

Leo Laporte (01:36:42):
Does that make sense? This is true. You think so? Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:36:45):
Yes. It is impossible. It is impossible to have a secure computer. It is impossible to have true security because either you're gonna be hacked like electronically, physically, like via those channels. Or you're gonna be social engineered because most people are hackable. Mm-Hmm.

Leo Laporte (01:37:07):
<Affirmative>, I don't know. My Chromebook pretty good. <Laugh>. Yeah. Chromebooks. Like issue a challenge. Oh lord. <Laugh>, you can still be socially engineered. Well, and you can Chromebook extend chrome extensions. I've said before, Chromebooks are unhackable and people have said, no, no, no. Of course they can be hacking. Of course they can. But they do a lot to prevent him. Nobody wants to bother. Slow it down. Little bit.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:37:31):
Every company out there should recognize that they are going to get hacked. Yes. You should obviously look for the ways that you're most vulnerable and, you know, figure that out. And most of it will be to social engineering attacks in quite honesty. Yep. And then figure out how, figure out strategies for mitigating the damage. Maybe that's backups. If you're worried about ransomware, maybe it's keeping some of your most valuable data. Like not on the internet. I mean, there's, there's lots of options, but, but yeah. No computer is ever gonna be secure.

Leo Laporte (01:38:04):
Yeah. he writes in his conclusion he's called, which is called the Death of Solutionism. He basically solutionism is the idea that there's a solution that that technology can solve our problems. Right. That there, that there is a solution to any party with the problems it creates. Yeah. <laugh> he writes that Scott writes, the solutionism is ubiquitous in cybersecurity. Every cybersecurity firm promises its technology will keep your data safe. But he says it, I think

Stacey Higginbotham (01:38:41):
This guy has a load of crap on that front. Most cybersecurity experts I talk to are like, look, you're gonna get hacked.

Leo Laporte (01:38:48):
Right.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:38:49):
You need to like, you need to monitor. Nobody's tell, I mean, okay, I obviously have not heard from every single cybersecurity vendor out there, but I have never met a cybersecurity vendor who's like, this will solve everything. Yeah. They're like, this will solve this segment of the problem and be monitored.

Leo Laporte (01:39:07):
Anyway, I I think a, you know, a good book raising really interesting questions and certainly fascinating stories about five hacks that you and I all covered or paid attention to as they were happening. Maybe not the Robert Morris worm, cuz that was so far, so long ago. But it's a great story cuz it's the first internet virus. And I think, okay, so you, you concur and okay, I'm glad to hear you say that, that because these are in most courses. He writes, I teach the, at least one student remains skeptical throughout the entire semester refusing to buy the intellectual goods I've been selling. My guess is you are similarly skeptical. So he goes through the touring proof at the, in the, in the epilogue, the very end. And and explains why because it's a general computer. It will always be attackable finally convinced the student says, actually I have one more question.

(01:40:10):
Now that the course is over. What happened to Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan? I say that I have to run <laugh>, but the student can take my course next semester to find out <laugh>. Wow. In the words of PT Barnum always leave him wanting more. Anyway. I recommend a fancy bear goes fishing. Scott Shapiro. It's challenging. I mean, like I said, I was going, no, what is he saying? Because it's got a very philosopher's point of view to, you know, this, this question of our computers ever gonna be secure. But if you're in the business, if you cover this, if you're interested, if you use computers very much. Got a great title. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:40:46):
Dr. Drew and the Discord found that tool that I was thinking of off the top of my head. I was saying Loic and it's it low orbit ion Cannon. Oh

Leo Laporte (01:40:58):
Yeah. I think we talked about that on, it's been

Ant Pruitt (01:41:02):
Like a gazillion years, right? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:41:03):
<Laugh>, we've talked about that on security now. Yeah. I don't remember the whole whole story.

Ant Pruitt (01:41:10):
No. Orbit Ion Cannon is an open source network. Stress testing in DDoS application. Interesting. See Sharp,

Leo Laporte (01:41:18):
Nice crowdsourced DDoS basically. Yeah. alright. Now I think we could do, if you would like, we didn't do an this week in AI cuz it was really the whole first half of the show. The Google change log.

Ant Pruitt (01:41:37):
The Google change log.

Leo Laporte (01:41:43):
I didn't sign up. I don't know, maybe somebody here did. Maybe you did. Google's. S G E is available now in preview. This is their Oh, because you're a work workspace user. Well, I even tried to get in, you wouldn't let me in that then I wanted to, you know, a regular Google account. I still said I couldn't get. Well, yeah, I mean I'm on the waiting list I guess, but this is their, I'm not sure I want it, but I want to play with it. Right. They're, there's, they're AI enabled search.

Ant Pruitt (01:42:11):
Sure. Keep it. I'm okay without it for now.

Leo Laporte (01:42:15):
Yeah. I mean I wanna try it but I haven't been able to yet. I played with Bard and compared to chat G P t I think chat G P T is better. But I li I think it's interesting. So the idea is BARR and Chat g p t are frozen in time. Right? chat G p t is like late last year, September, 2021 I think actually. But if you add search indexes, you're adding current information into it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So maybe it's more useful than, I don't know, I don't know. Google Assistance, third party notes and lists. Integration is shutting down.

Ant Pruitt (01:42:51):
Surprise. Surprise.

Leo Laporte (01:42:55):
So you've been able to set a notes and list provider? I used to use any do which I really like, which is a to-do list of third party to-do list. And so I could say to my Google Voice add something to my to-do list and would add it to my any do list. Nah, not to my not so fast anymore. Now it's gonna be Google Keep or I guess Google tasks. Is it gonna lose Google Keep as well? I thought tasks was gone. Man. That's interesting. Think that was gone. Yeah. Any due? Any dude's gone? For sure. I know that. The notes and list integration. Wait, no, not

Ant Pruitt (01:43:35):
Keep, I use Keep all the time.

Leo Laporte (01:43:37):
It's gotta have keys.

Ant Pruitt (01:43:38):
I thought Task was gone. Byebye.

Leo Laporte (01:43:41):
Okay. We asked the company whether Google Keep will be impacted or if the upcoming Google Tasks integration, which is not yet widely wrote out, is the only service they say no can use Google Keep and Tasks. Okay for now. So, but that's it. <Laugh> for now. Well, they're both, at least they're both Google, right? Yeah. you remember Magic composed, they showed that off where you could write a a letter of in various degrees of nastiness complaining about something. Messages Magic composed Beta starts rolling out. It's only for rcs and you need, you'll have priority if you're a Google one subscriber, which I am. So you'll have to sign up for the Google Messages beta program on the Play Store. It's only available in English on Android Ford's phones with us SIM cards for those 18 and older. Well that rules out everybody in this room, <laugh>.

(01:44:33):
Lastly, Google will give priority access to Google one Premium members as more spots become available. Oh, whoa. Wait a minute. The subscriptions tier starts at $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year. Oh no, that's, I'm sorry. You have one That's Google one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought they were talking about the this feature. I am paying for Magic Compose. Nope, baby. When activating a conversation, magic Compose will send it up to 20 previous messages to Google's servers to generate relevant contextual suggestions, including emoji's, reactions and URLs, but not attachments. They're gonna freak people out. Voice messages or images. And then you'll be presented from now on with a list of suggestions to, so it's like auto complete, but with much more knowledge of how the conversation's been going. And if you tap the pencil with a sparkle icon, it'll let you customize it with one of seven styles.

(01:45:28):
Remix Ex, which is just give me another one. Excited. Hey, wait a minute. Oh, let's go chill. Okay, man. No problem. Shakespeare, pk mi Shall we dine tonight? Alfresco <laugh> lyrical. I, I don't know. <Laugh>, what is, what is lyrical? Like, I don't know, like the New Yorker. I don't lyrical like a poem after mania. Summer dies. The swan on the other hand, we could go for a walk. Formal or short. Some are particularly heavy about inserting emojis and of course you're not forced to take any of them. You can thumbs up or thumbs down. Suggestions. Look for that magic compose. I'm excited. NFL Sunday ticket. NFL's coming back when? Late August, usually right. September. September. Early September. I already paid for my Sunday ticket. 300 bucks. Oh, bless your turn. Smackers. Oh gosh. It will support fun. Are you gonna invite aunt over to watch aunt?

(01:46:32):
Come on over. Okay, sure. It'll be unlimited, simultaneous streams. We'll have one little kids to aunt. Yeah. Bring everybody other whole team. Well I'll tell you that's a good idea because of the bars, you know. Right. All of the TVs into bars in, in one subscription you have five TVs. You can have all the games. Well isn't that a different license? Oh, I don't know. Yeah, they say in your home. Oh wait a minute. No matter where you purchase NFL Sunday ticket, you'll have access to unlimited streams in your home and two additional streams outside of your home. See, so this is, I think YouTube TV is expensive as is because it supports six people. You know, you can, I mean you can, you can't, you have to kind of be in the same geographic area though,

Ant Pruitt (01:47:13):
I noticed. Well, I think they, the caveat was like every month or something weird like that or every couple of months cuz yeah, I had that issue with the hard head up in college and when he came home it was fine for a little while when he went back to college to watch television.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:47:29):
Oh, I wonder if it's like, you know how Netflix does its password sharing? It's in that password sharing. They do it every 30 days. You have to check into your home IP address.

Leo Laporte (01:47:38):
Oh, okay. Your

Stacey Higginbotham (01:47:39):
Device does.

Leo Laporte (01:47:40):
Yeah. Google's, Google's got all these geographic rules. I know. Cause I inadvertently told that I was in North Carolina or somehow mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Right. I thought I was in Carolina. And then it cut me off in the Bay Area. Yep. And then I had to call them and they said, well, they're gonna have to cancel your subscription. I'm gonna give you a credit and you can redo it and blah, blah. Anyway, it worked out. You actually got a human? I talked to a hu Yeah. In chat. Wow. Kelly's

Ant Pruitt (01:48:03):
Leo on the

Leo Laporte (01:48:03):
Port chat. No, no. I didn't say who I'm, I said no. And I don't care. When

Stacey Higginbotham (01:48:08):
You pay real money for these things, you get a

Leo Laporte (01:48:10):
Real human. I pay a lot of money, know it's almost a hundred bucks a month. Yeah. so this was originally gonna be two concurrent streams that on Reddit, they said Update No more streaming limits in your home. Which is good cuz our kid wants to watch the Packers games. Yep. We're gonna be watching the Niners games. Maybe somebody's gonna come over win. Watch

Ant Pruitt (01:48:27):
The watch man in the house there.

Leo Laporte (01:48:29):
Yeah. What's, who's your team? <Laugh> Packers Baby. Packers Baby <laugh>. Maybe somebody's gonna wa watch Aaron Rods play for the Jets. I don't know.

Ant Pruitt (01:48:37):
No, I'm okay with that. All right. I'm okay with that.

Leo Laporte (01:48:39):
So, anyway, that's that's actually, interestingly, Google doing this, they actually responded in Reddit in answer to people complaining, oh, 2 2, 2 channels isn't enough. We, we need more. So, good stuff. Good on them for, for doing that. Google is phasing out the original Chromecast. I still have quite a few of these. It's, it's, it's more than 10 years old now.

Ant Pruitt (01:49:03):
Man. I killed that thing pretty quickly cuz it kept getting too Dagum hot.

Leo Laporte (01:49:07):
It was pointless. It does get hot. Yeah. the Evented support, your last update came out I think pretty recently. Remember that? $35 streaming stick. It was a cool

Ant Pruitt (01:49:18):
Value. Yeah. but again, it, it, it was totally useless for us. It just would overheat and it would shut

Leo Laporte (01:49:24):
Down. If yours is working now, it'll still work. They say users may notice a degradation in performance. The end of support was at the end of last month. Last firmware update on your Chromecast. And finally it's the end of the line for YouTube stories. I guess we could have such They knew you. Yeah. We hardly knew. Ye actually June 26th will be the last day. They're moving it over to whatever they have that The other thing is shorts. Right? The two shorts.

Ant Pruitt (01:49:56):
Shorts. Which is going totally fine for them.

Leo Laporte (01:49:59):
Yeah. Is it? Hmm. Okay. Th this was basically their, you know, TikTok clone, right? Yep. so this is often the case where companies copy other companies and then it doesn't work. And they, so they the company launched in 2017 under the name reels, which is what? Facebook and Instagram Use

Ant Pruitt (01:50:21):
Instagram, yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:50:22):
Later renamed a YouTube stories in 2018. June 26th, the last day to upload a story move it over to move it on over to shorts.

Ant Pruitt (01:50:33):
Youtube shorts was a bit of a mess when they launched. The interface was clunky and you couldn't always upload stuff that you would make offline to put into it. But now it's so much smoother and better. They've, they've definitely been working on it.

Leo Laporte (01:50:47):
And I'm figuring they're, they're watching carefully. What happens to TikTok? Cuz if TikTok gets banned, Hey,

Ant Pruitt (01:50:52):
Why not? They're ready. Hey, just come

Leo Laporte (01:50:54):
Step in

Ant Pruitt (01:50:54):
Over to the Google side. I mean, the YouTube side. Yeah. I mean, the Google side. <Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:50:59):
So if you're on YouTube, there's shorts are in the left hand side here. There's home and then there's shorts. I click that and then I get a short, which, by the way, does that look a little bit like a TikTok?

Ant Pruitt (01:51:12):
No comment. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:51:14):
<Laugh>. Jennifer Lawrence wants to ask Kim. I, I think I saw this on TikTok before the internet, nobody could search things. Eddie Van Halen's

Jeff Jarvis (01:51:23):
Playing the guitar

Leo Laporte (01:51:25):
By Eddie Van Halen buddy.

Ant Pruitt (01:51:26):
It does. What do it like that <laugh>. There's

Leo Laporte (01:51:27):
David Letterman. It's a bunch of old people. Oh, Aubrey Plaza. Yeah. I love her. Here's Obama talking about between two Ferns.

Jeff Jarvis (01:51:36):
This is all old.

Leo Laporte (01:51:37):
This is all old stuff. Best reaction. Yeah. If you wanna be hip and with it, you go to TikTok. You don't go to YouTube shorts. But Boy Con talk about a TikTok clone. It's, it's vertical videos. You scroll up, it's just like, yep. It's just like it. Where's all the, where's all the women in bikinis though? I don't understand. I

Ant Pruitt (01:51:56):
Believe they showed It hasn't,

Jeff Jarvis (01:51:58):
I believe showed it hasn't learned you yet. No. What else gets women in bikinis?

Leo Laporte (01:52:01):
<Laugh>. Oh yeah. Just me. Just me. Okay. All right.

Jeff Jarvis (01:52:06):
Just you

Leo Laporte (01:52:07):
<Laugh>. Here's a guy making quarter pounders. God, I did this for a long time. He hasn't changed at all. That's exactly how you do it. You, and except you don't have two people smell

Ant Pruitt (01:52:16):
Like onions.

Leo Laporte (01:52:17):
Yeah. You go home, you smell like the grill.

Jeff Jarvis (01:52:19):
The ketchups always struck me as the, probably

Leo Laporte (01:52:21):
The worst part of Oh, so cheap. Well, did you see those machines for squirting the mustard and the ketchup is exactly measured out. Exactly. Yeah's how much mustard and ketchup. That's brilliant. And here comes the Quarter Pounder. There you go. They

Jeff Jarvis (01:52:32):
Don't, no, they don't do mustard anymore. That's a, that's this regional. Pisses me off. I can't get mustard.

Leo Laporte (01:52:36):
What? Look, see mustard and ketchup. Mustard ketchup. It. No,

Jeff Jarvis (01:52:39):
That's, it's regional. It's some, it's somewhere where they do with mustard still. Huh? Some places they don't do it.

Leo Laporte (01:52:43):
Well

Stacey Higginbotham (01:52:44):
That wait. But if you ask for mustards, you can get it right. He's a little

Leo Laporte (01:52:46):
Packet of mustard that's not, don't put on. That's tall. Oh, shocking. Oh, here's a man at Bikini. I don't know what he's doing. What is is he doing? Is he doing? Dude's rolling around in the water. Are you confused? He's very confused. All right. Here they are painting a directional arrow in a parking lot. Okay. That's re This is boring. That's <laugh>. The Google change log. Yay.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:53:13):
I I see why you get the women in bikinis.

Leo Laporte (01:53:16):
<Laugh> <laugh>. It's not my Stacy, I just wanna, I wanna let you know that before we do the Google change log, he said that was the first half of the show. Just, just so you know, <laugh>. But we're, we're almost done. Another lemon bar. I am now <laugh>. We're almost done. I am now to Jeff Jarvis's stories. Yay. You only did one of yours. Stop

Stacey Higginbotham (01:53:42):
Started in trouble. I not, I'm not dying yet. Y'all, y'all keep going.

Leo Laporte (01:53:46):
She had a lemon bar to hold her over.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:53:48):
I had a lemon bar to tide me over. I've got big plans.

Leo Laporte (01:53:52):
Oh yeah. You going out tonight?

Stacey Higginbotham (01:53:55):
I am.

Leo Laporte (01:53:56):
Oh. Where does one go out in Bambridge Island? Is there like a, a disco to

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:02):
The beach? I'm taking my, my child. My child and I are gonna go out to eat.

Leo Laporte (01:54:05):
Oh, that'll be fun. That'll be, that's always fun.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:07):
We're we're celebrating the end of their school year. Oh. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:54:11):
Nice. Is there a graduation?

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:14):
No. They're a junior. So next year.

Leo Laporte (01:54:17):
Next year. How about junior prom? Was there a junior prom college?

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:21):
Hell yes. Aris was in charge of the junior prom.

Leo Laporte (01:54:27):
Oh, nice. So I had to

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:28):
Help decorate it.

Leo Laporte (01:54:29):
Terrible. What was the theme?

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:32):
I think it was a mid-summer Night Dream. That's

Leo Laporte (01:54:34):
Cool.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:35):
I mean, that's nice. Yeah. We

Leo Laporte (01:54:37):
And you had to decorate. He's what? Its, yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:40):
Well, there was a little rebellion happening. Very bit, very much drama. Oh, I cannot with these children.

Leo Laporte (01:54:45):
Of course I get it. Of

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:46):
Course. Exactly. I'm like, ugh. But it's all good.

Leo Laporte (01:54:52):
Supreme Court has rejected the lawsuit, did not give cert to a lawsuit to hold Reddit responsible for hosting child pornography. This seems to be a support of Section two 30. I get once again, right after last week, good news. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> yesterday, the decline to take up a case of a victim of sex trafficking who sought to hold Reddit responsible for hosting images of child pornography. Obviously, Reddit, like any responsible site, as soon as it discovers that immediately deletes, it blocks the user. I mean, they don't just let it sit there. It's not for Jan or anything. Right. so I think after the Justices, let's see here. This is from Supreme cnn, after the justices avoided any meaningful ruling on the scope of immunity for tech companies. In the Google case, we've talked about that Tamana and Gonzalez, for today's denial of review in the Reddi case suggests their aversion was more than just about the Google case, specifically in the court is willing, at least for now, to leave any changes to section 2 32. Ease me. Congress. Like, like,

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:03):
Like, like there's a presumption that it should change, right? No, leave it alone. Yeah, just leave it alone.

Leo Laporte (01:56:09):
Yeah. which which is not to say we're in favor of child pornography or sex trafficking or anything. No. That's not what this is about. This is, is Reddit or any social network responsible for stuff other pe you know, its users put online. Especially since they're making an effort to take it down and get rid of it. Exactly.

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:27):
That's the key. Yeah. And, and, and two 30 gives them the freedom to

Leo Laporte (01:56:29):
Do so. Yes. So good. That's that's a happy story. I'm gonna let you, Jeff, I've ignored all the rest of them. I'm gonna let you pick one and only one <laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:40):
One and only

Leo Laporte (01:56:41):
One. Wow. You can pick a couple. You can pick a couple. None of these seem that interesting

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:46):
To be No, they're not. The Andy Chassy kill list. I found interesting that the

Leo Laporte (01:56:49):
Jazzy and the Google one. Okay. So Andy Chassy, the C e O of Amazon has a list of 37 projects that were created during Jeff Bezos's event that are gone. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that are gone.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:57:03):
Were, were, were some of them celebrity voices?

Leo Laporte (01:57:06):
<Laugh>. Oh, mention that. I am pissed off. I bought Samuel Jackson. I bought Melissa McCarthy. Oh

Stacey Higginbotham (01:57:12):
My God. Just get a refund. <Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:57:18):
I liked being able to say quit. It was really fun. I could if I had my echo here, I'd, I'd show you. I could say, what's the weather? And then it would do it in the you know, the normal echo voice. And then I'd say, Hey Samuel, what's the weather? And he'd swear, he'd say something profane, of course. And nasty. And then tell me the weather in his voice, which I loved. And then I'd say, Hey, Melissa. And then she'd like, do something Melissa McCarthy esque and give me the weather. I love that. You'll be okay, sir.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:57:46):
I think you are one of few people who apparently

Leo Laporte (01:57:48):
Doing this. Apparently there weren't a lot of people doing it. Eddie

Jeff Jarvis (01:57:51):
Jesse is tougher than, what's her name in Google? Ruth pt. Ruth pt, I think. Yeah. He, he, he was slicing through, I

Stacey Higginbotham (01:57:59):
Think it's, see what's on their kill list.

Leo Laporte (01:58:01):
I think it's a good thing Alexa built in. I didn't

Jeff Jarvis (01:58:03):
Say

Leo Laporte (01:58:03):
That. A feature for the Alexa smartphone app to let people summon the digital assistant using only their voice. It's a little, like, a little too much. Like Beetlejuice Alexa for business. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say Alexa. I'm gonna say Madame A Echo. Hipaa. A HIPAA compliant health skills just hit no. Madame, a internet.

Jeff Jarvis (01:58:27):
This the web version of Madame A. Oh, no,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:58:29):
No, no, no. That was, that was not the web. That was, this

Leo Laporte (01:58:32):
Was alexa.com traffic. Yeah. Oh, this has nothing to do with Madame or Echo web traffic. Oh. And this was always the source of confusion. You remember back in the day with the Alexa site rankings. I don't even remember that. Right? Oh yeah. It was the only way we really knew Amazon bought

Stacey Higginbotham (01:58:47):
It. This is the old stuff too. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:58:49):
Amazon bought it 1990 used all the, it was a long time ago, but now

Jeff Jarvis (01:58:53):
If you go there, if you go to alexa.com Yeah. It says coming soon. I guess not. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:58:59):
Dying soon. Amazon Four Star, which is a store which sold Highly Rav. Was it weird? Did you ever go to those? No, we had,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:59:07):
Yeah, they were, it so weird.

Leo Laporte (01:59:09):
Very weird. It was stuff they sell on Amazon that people like, would you go there, look at it, and then order it on Amazon? Or could you buy it there?

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:17):
No, you could buy it right there. But it was buy it, it was this weird hodgepodge,

Leo Laporte (01:59:19):
Right? Yeah. It's not, there's no, yeah. It

Stacey Higginbotham (01:59:21):
Was, it was like the Dollar store. Except it wasn't a dollar. It was Oh yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:25):
<Laugh>.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:59:26):
It was well said. So much stuff. It was so cluttered,

Leo Laporte (01:59:29):
<Laugh>. It was more than the Dollar store Amazon made, had

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:32):
No sense together. There was no, there was no taxonomy to it.

Leo Laporte (01:59:36):
Amazon Academy in India, Amazon said, we are, we remain committed to India. Amazon assisted a browser extension for price comparisons between Amazon and other sites. This is Amazon books. Oh, that was the physical bookstore. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:51):
Yeah. That made me sad.

Leo Laporte (01:59:53):
I thought, were they good? I've never been to one, but they were,

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:55):
They were. Okay. But the, if you like this, you might like this.

Leo Laporte (01:59:59):
This is Amazon. Andy was, has really been grappling with this whole brick and mortar strategy that Jeff had.

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:05):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:00:05):
And they have said that they're not gonna get rid of the Go stores. They're not gonna get rid of Right. Whole Foods. But they are

Stacey Higginbotham (02:00:11):
Getting rid of the Ghost stores. Alright.

Leo Laporte (02:00:12):
Is that one of them?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:00:14):
That's one of them. Amazon Go it closed eight of the things and says it.

Leo Laporte (02:00:20):
Yeah. Amazon Care. Amazon distribution. India, Amazon Drive. That's free for Prime members, but they're making it out. Just photos. Amazon Explorer, which is a virtual tourist portal. Amazon Flex, Amazon Food India, Amazon Glow. Oh, the children's video conferencing and game device. Remember that would project,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:00:44):
That was such an interesting concept, but it, it was only there for like six months. That's pretty

Leo Laporte (02:00:48):
Brief. Yeah. I didn't think, I think it was that long last year. There's Amazon Go April, 2023. The company closed eight of its cashier list locations. It still has 20, 20 more stores. And it says we're, yeah. There's

Stacey Higginbotham (02:01:00):
Still licensing the tech. There's still a couple out there.

Leo Laporte (02:01:03):
Yeah. Just walk out. They're licensing it to Walmart and others. Yes. Right.

Jeff Jarvis (02:01:06):
There's also one that combines with a Starbucks pickup here. Me. Oh, nice. New York Times building

Leo Laporte (02:01:11):
Halo we know is gone. Amazon Ignite a hub for teachers and creations. Creators of Indi Education Kind. It was curriculum site. Amazon Kid plus games. Well, I can go on and on and on. Obviously,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:01:25):
You know, they don't mention the look camera that you got rid of.

Leo Laporte (02:01:28):
Oh, well that, that, yeah. Remember that camera's gone, isn't it? Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:01:31):
They, it is totally gone. They, so there's actually, there's

Leo Laporte (02:01:35):
Even more, we can add more TP reviews on this, although reviews on there, they're still posting articles to DP review. I'm wondering, is it, you have soft opens, can you have a soft close?

Ant Pruitt (02:01:46):
Well, I thought something was going on with Pet AIX and DP review. Pix

Leo Laporte (02:01:49):
Archive did. Right. But if I go to DP review.com, I I've seen new articles. You sure.

Ant Pruitt (02:01:57):
Cause I haven't even bothered since Jordan and Chris has been over on. Whoa, that is new.

Leo Laporte (02:02:02):
Cause this is May 20 mark, May 23rd. Richard Butler. Zvi. By the way, I'm thinking of buying this. I don't know. Should I zv when Mark two vlogging camera? No. Why? I'm really glad that DP review is gone because, oh, wait a minute. No, maybe I'll buy the I have a Q too. Maybe you should get a, should I get the like, like a q3

Ant Pruitt (02:02:22):
Dude didn't like us

Leo Laporte (02:02:24):
$6,000.

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:26):
You came back for your last trip saying you weren't gonna take cameras anyway.

Leo Laporte (02:02:28):
I know, but I love this little like Yeah, it's barely a camera

Ant Pruitt (02:02:31):
Like us. A pretty cool, it's

Leo Laporte (02:02:33):
<Laugh>. It's barely a camera. So they're posting, so I don't know what happened. The, they were supposed to be long blonde by now. I don't know.

Ant Pruitt (02:02:40):
Yeah, that's

Leo Laporte (02:02:40):
Confusing. Maybe Amazon changes mind fabric.com. Fire TV fabric store free. Yeah. I think so.

Ant Pruitt (02:02:48):
Never heard of it.

Leo Laporte (02:02:49):
E-Commerce category. Yeah. Apparently still don't know what it is. Free US Grocery delivery game on. Anyway. Kendall Newton, the list keeps going. It's a, it's a long freaking list.

Ant Pruitt (02:03:01):
That's good though. Jesse said, look here. We're Amazon and we're here to make this.

Leo Laporte (02:03:07):
We don't need to do everything. Yeah, that's it. All right. That was a pretty good one, Jeff. You've earned yourself another one.

Jeff Jarvis (02:03:13):
Oh. Oh, okay. <Laugh>. oh, the pressure is on. I don't know if I can take this.

Leo Laporte (02:03:19):
We've already done quite a few of the stories from you, by the

Stacey Higginbotham (02:03:21):
Way. You, you don't have to, man.

Leo Laporte (02:03:23):
Oh,

Jeff Jarvis (02:03:24):
Well now I, now Stacy, now I do have to

Leo Laporte (02:03:27):
Twitter. Now you do have to. Twitter is according to Fidelity. Remember, what did Elon pay? $44 billion. Fidelity, which is one of the people who lent money to Elon for this, have written down <laugh> their investment

Ant Pruitt (02:03:41):
Notes. Huh?

Leo Laporte (02:03:42):
They say Twitter is only worth about 15 billion, one third. It's that what it was,

Jeff Jarvis (02:03:48):
Which is what the bankers put into it. And then when the bankers take it over outta bankruptcy. Yeah. He's a deal.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:03:54):
I have a story that I was excited about. Okay. Sonos won. There are 32.5 or they, they won their patent infringement fight with Google. Oh. So they won $32.5 million and, good.

Ant Pruitt (02:04:07):
See, I saw that with Mr. Scooter X. Yeah, I did see that

Leo Laporte (02:04:10):
One. Mr. So Sonos, you know, what was the first good for them to have party mode where you'd have multiple speakers? We use it all the time here in the studio as speakers all over and all the offices. And John, when everybody leaves turns on strange music. It's

Ant Pruitt (02:04:22):
Not when everybody leaves. It's not when everybody

Leo Laporte (02:04:24):
Leaves. Oh. So when people are here and it's party mode, and this was the amazing, the secret sauces of Sonos. If you tried to do that with any other speakers, you'd have weird echo mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, because they weren't exactly in sync. Somehow Sonos made them all synchronize. Then Google did the same thing with their speakers. And Sonos said, Hey, wait a minute, <laugh>,

Ant Pruitt (02:04:45):
This is our case.

Leo Laporte (02:04:46):
Hold on there.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:04:48):
The other thing that was worth noting in there is they won, it was a per unit royalty. So $2 and 30 cents for every unit sold. So they sold Google sold 14.1 million speaker devices. Which honestly, that's not a lot.

Leo Laporte (02:05:03):
That's a low was good. That's a low number. I guess it is. I mean,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:05:07):
Don't you

Leo Laporte (02:05:08):
For No. Yeah. Cuz I, that's

Stacey Higginbotham (02:05:09):
All

Leo Laporte (02:05:10):
About five of them. <Laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (02:05:11):
Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:05:13):
I mean, I've bought at least four, five.

Leo Laporte (02:05:15):
Yeah. I bought quite a few.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:05:16):
All of those were infringing

Leo Laporte (02:05:19):
<Laugh>. So a jury in San Francisco found Google libel on Friday. And they're gonna have to pay out 32 and a half mill. Google has been pulling features from the speakers and displays prior to this Yes. Result. So they clearly felt like this was gonna, they knew better an issue. Google has sued Sonos in return. And that trial's ongoing. So May <laugh> it may not really be over. I don't know. Sonos is the plucky little guy here. And they did own that market and it did hurt them. I'm sure that other, everybody now can do this party mode. There's nobody that can, I think that somebody f they figured it out. <Laugh>.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:06:05):
So sorry Jeff, I stole a story from you, but you go

Leo Laporte (02:06:07):
Right ahead. I think Jeff's happy. Oh. Oh, oh. That was good. That was, I think that's about it. Let's let's do this.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:06:14):
<Laugh>. Wait, I can't steal from Jeff. I'll

Leo Laporte (02:06:16):
Get, I think it's over. It's over

Stacey Higginbotham (02:06:19):
<Laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:20):
Well, we should, we shouldn't, we complain for about this is that Twitter has the one place where academics could study social media, all those

Leo Laporte (02:06:27):
Twitter, all those bastards.

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:29):
And they've completely cut that off now. And so there's, you can't get Facebook data, you can't get Twitter data. It's, it's awful. And, and astronaut data doesn't matter as much as I love it. And so Yeah,

Ant Pruitt (02:06:41):
You can't get it for free is what you're saying. No.

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:44):
Right. Yeah. They wanna charge you millions upon millions upon millions

Ant Pruitt (02:06:47):
That they can do that. Right?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:06:50):
Well, yeah. But is a way, like usually you carve out options for researchers mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so it's one way to be like, when, when you've got an actual researcher trying to do something mm-hmm. <Affirmative> to say, mm, no, I don't think you should be able to look this stuff up. Okay. We're gonna keep this all secret. Okay. Facebook did it for a while.

Ant Pruitt (02:07:08):
Yeah. That is a problem. But I mean, I, I could see them saying, you know, we can charge you a smaller fee. A much,

Leo Laporte (02:07:14):
Much smaller, I think if you already bought it, you should get to keep it. I don't understand how they can demand that you delete stuff. You already bought that. That's what puzzles me. Maybe you only rented it. I guess that was the deal. You didn't really own it. But a lot of researchers are complaining cuz they, they aren't gonna be able to keep the data that they purchased for research studies.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:07:36):
Did they not download

Leo Laporte (02:07:37):
It? Yeah, they downloaded it, but, but they, but they, but Twitter's saying no to you. Now you have to delete it. So it must have been an ongoing license. Right. Ah, and they don't wanna break the rules, so they're gonna delete it.

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:50):
So today I just talked to folks who were convened the black Twitter summit. And some of them were working on a new neat project, which we should mention here, if you go to Better platform.net, is to work on a people's history of Twitter.

Leo Laporte (02:08:03):
Oh, I love that.

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:06):
I'm trying to raise some

Leo Laporte (02:08:06):
Money. How I'm a little, I think, you know, so I went on a blue sky where apparently it, it was decided some people, black Twitter movers decided, no, we're not gonna do massive on their they're not welcoming. And so they went to Blue Sky and now there's a massive moderation. Most every time I go to Blue Sky, all they're talking about is moderation. Well,

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:28):
Because they really screwed up. They screwed the puppy on one on one bad case. One of the people who convinced a lot of black Twitter people to come on to Blue Sky then got harassed by a racist. And they did finally take down the post, but they didn't take down the account. And they went back and forth and now they have new rules. They're learning as they go. And they screwed up a big case early on. And people are, are, are angry about that. So

Leo Laporte (02:08:51):
This is, see how much they were, blue Sky

Stacey Higginbotham (02:08:53):
Is not as fun as I wanted it to be, I'll be honest.

Leo Laporte (02:08:57):
Well, it goes through weird now. They're more than a hundred thousand now. So, but it goes through these weird, you know, for a while it was all about Alf <laugh>. It goes through these weird things where everybody's silly. They're silly. And then they got very serious about moderation. And Yeah. I That's too bad. I feel like an opportunity was missed. I mean, if you really wanted a black Twitter diaspora, you could be who, why didn't somebody start a, oh, they could've a Mastodon instance that was Black Mastodon. Why didn't they just do that? Well,

Jeff Jarvis (02:09:28):
That was part of the, the issue. This was, this was Jonathan Flowers who was one of the commuters, the black Twitter summit. You have that discussion and, and, and people come and well make your own. And and so we don't really care about your lived experience for Mastodon as a whole, but you can go have

Leo Laporte (02:09:45):
Your That's not true. If the, if any, and certainly Andrea Langston and the number of black users this guy named Anne Pruitt mm-hmm. <Affirmative> are on Twitch social. They're, you don't feel unwelcome, do you? No. No. And I moderate very carefully to make sure nobody's harassed. No, that was,

Jeff Jarvis (02:09:59):
That, that's, I'm going to your point explicitly, Leo, is when you tell someone to create your own, you're also saying in some cases, well, we don't care about your experience in the whole.

Leo Laporte (02:10:09):
I I understand. I'm not saying that they're more than welcome on anybody's welcome on Twitter. Its social. There are plenty of instances. There would be more than welcome. Yeah, of course, of course. Of course. I didn't see any issue, frankly, that people weren't welcome. No. And look, it's one of the great things you can do with Mastin on that you can't yet do with Blue Sky is somebody who's technically literate. I'll help you do it. If you wanna do an aunt can create a Mastodon instance that is absolutely guaranteed to be a home to people and welcoming to people of color or not, or whatever they wanted.

Ant Pruitt (02:10:38):
Anybody can do that as long as they're willing to put in the work Is is the

Leo Laporte (02:10:42):
Bottom line. And it's not that hard. I mean, I don't, I don't put in a lot of work. I'm not a wizard of anything or anything. I just, I I went to a place that offers hosting and I bought the hosting. Yeah. And it worked. So I, I, anyway. Good. Good. You went to Blue Sky. How did that, how did that work out for you? I think any centralized solution's a bad idea. It's,

Jeff Jarvis (02:11:03):
It's, well it depends on what they really do with Federation. They, they have, the one thing they did in the last week was they now have a whole bunch of pick your own algorithms.

Leo Laporte (02:11:11):
Well then best for Yes, I know they have those fees. Best case they federate. And then you could do what you could already do on Maston, on street rate. You're on Blue Sky instance from black Twitter. Yeah. you already got that. I see. I just, it baffles me. I think people wanted to be upset. Anyway. Better platform.net

Jeff Jarvis (02:11:31):
Net, which is the folks who wanted to buy Twitter, remember some time back that they wanted to 2016 wasn't gonna happen. But now they're trying to do a people's history of Twitter and they're bringing in academics and ex employees and others. And I'm looking to try to raise some money for you.

Leo Laporte (02:11:48):
Nice. How do we, how do we contribute? Just go to the site?

Jeff Jarvis (02:11:52):
Yeah, I think so. Okay. It says up there on the top collaborate with other help, write history,

Leo Laporte (02:11:56):
Click to collaborate. Nice.

Ant Pruitt (02:11:59):
I just need to find more people to follow on Blue Sky because it's just a bit Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:04):
It's

Ant Pruitt (02:12:04):
Boring to me. Because there's a lot, now granted, there is a lot of activity on there, but I just don't care about half the stuff on there. I don't want to get on there and continue to talk about the bull crap of US politics or Right.

Leo Laporte (02:12:18):
Or, or

Ant Pruitt (02:12:19):
All of the other problems going on. And I, I, I just like to go in and have mindless conversation about interesting stuff. If

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:28):
You'll <laugh> and just wants mindless conversation about can't we have a service that is filled with mindless conversation.

Ant Pruitt (02:12:34):
You know, I, I'm, I'm, wait, that's us, right? We we're hanging out here.

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:37):
That's what we're podcast

Ant Pruitt (02:12:39):
At D Table. We have mindless good conversation. You know, even though we have different, well, thanks

Leo Laporte (02:12:44):
A lot. You found your, you found your people. Yes. <laugh>. <Laugh>. We're right here.

Ant Pruitt (02:12:48):
Thanks, Sam <laugh>. Nah, but you know what I mean though. It's just, I, I scroll through there and I'm following right now. 26 people. But most of my, that's part of the problem. Well, that's the thing I gotta find who make some

Leo Laporte (02:13:00):
Lists.

Ant Pruitt (02:13:01):
Most of the people I've most of the people in my stream showing up is Teme and John Scalzi. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:13:08):
It's still

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:09):
Small enough. If you go to somebody you like, not me, and Stacy's not doing it much, follow

Leo Laporte (02:13:14):
Me. I follow a lot of,

Ant Pruitt (02:13:16):
I'm follow

Leo Laporte (02:13:16):
Mine and who I follow and

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:18):
Then go see who they follow. And you can build a good list. Who do I, how many

Ant Pruitt (02:13:22):
Am I following? Yeah. That's how I've got a couple of people I'm following who you're following. Mr. Jarvis,

Leo Laporte (02:13:27):
Hey, I'm following 374 people and I'm following good people. Oh, I'm only 110. But they're good people. They're good people. And you know what makes it really easy? If you do that, you could see there's a follow on one button right next to it and you can follow mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But it's, it's,

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:40):
It's quite a mix. It's people,

Leo Laporte (02:13:41):
Here's my problem.

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:42):
Like Amanda Knox is in there. Who would've thought of that?

Leo Laporte (02:13:45):
Here's my problem. A lot of pe first of all, a I think it's, we gotta recognize there's never gonna be another Twitter. No. May be. I'm totally fine with that. It may be the Twitter ends up surviving and becomes Twitter again. I don't, I think that's actually a possibility. It's just like

Ant Pruitt (02:13:57):
Saying we, we need a new Instagram. We're not gonna get another Instagram. Everybody.

Leo Laporte (02:14:01):
It's sad. I'm mourn that too. It's not gonna happen. Instagram's gone. That's very sad. It's a real loss.

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:06):
I talked to Andre Brock Jr. Just before the show, the author of Distributed Blackness, one of the great experts on black Twitter. And you know, he's still there. And I, I said, what would it take for you to leave? And he said, pretty much the wheels just fall off.

Leo Laporte (02:14:18):
Right. If it stops working, you plan to stay. I don't, I'm not there because I don't really wanna support what Elon's doing with it. And I like, that's the, that's the adding content to it is supporting it. I do think that Elon, at some point, Elon's gonna tire of this toy where the banks are gonna foreclose and somebody is gonna get ahold of it. And

Ant Pruitt (02:14:37):
What's the point of the ceo?

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:39):
Well, for Twitter's really interesting. You, you, you raised that cuz cuz one of the stories I put on the rundown, see I snuck one more in I'm <laugh>

Ant Pruitt (02:14:47):
Well plate

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:47):
Sir. Sta Stacy's going to sleep. Is that they hired an ad executive. He hired Anec executive as the ceo. Yet the story said that they basically have given up selling ads and they're just going programmatic. So that's how you're seeing, you know, more bad crappy ads throw thrown in there. So they know that there's not a good ad business there. They've, they've been and juries just stopped doing it. Others are gonna stop doing it. They're not gonna come back. It's worth a third of what it was. I think it was ego war politics.

Leo Laporte (02:15:18):
Yeah. But there is a, there's something still alive there. There's a little kernel. You know, there's, there is. And I do think it's, it seems likely to me that it's not gonna die. No. That Elon's gonna lose control of it at some point. Somebody's gonna take it over. You know, maybe it'll be somebody like Conde Nast who, which has done a decent job with Reddit. Not perfect, but decent. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> somebody who is a benign corporate overlord who says, well let's fix this. Let's fix this. Let's hire enough people to keep this running. And it, and it comes back. And I think there's a lot of people like you aunt, who would go back who would very happily

Ant Pruitt (02:15:51):
Go back. I know broadcast mode over there. All of my feed is just broadcasting stuff for hard hit. Well,

Leo Laporte (02:15:56):
I'm sure drives Lisa crazy and are marketing people crazy that I still have half a million people over on Twitter and I don't post mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. I'm sure that drives 'em nuts. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But I just don't want to, I don't want to participate. And but I don't think it's dead. It's like a tree that it's not looking good. It's like my snake plant. It's, it's kind of brown on the tips and some of the leaves are going, but it, but it could be, it could be resuscitated.

Ant Pruitt (02:16:21):
Yeah. And coaches are still there. I'll say that cuz I still talk to some coaches. A lot of people,

Leo Laporte (02:16:26):
A surprisingly large number of people have not left. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> I am was a little worried about blue sky could become blue sky, predominantly

Jeff Jarvis (02:16:33):
Bad

Leo Laporte (02:16:33):
People. A lot of people left Twitter for Blue Sky and it hit it, you know, the pre as the problem is, the bigger that blue sky gets the main instance gets the harder it's gonna be for Federation to actually take off.

Ant Pruitt (02:16:46):
But damn it, stop leaving Twitter and going to Blue Sky to come talk about Twitter.

Leo Laporte (02:16:50):
Well, that's bad too. I I,

Ant Pruitt (02:16:51):
I see a lot of that. Like, yeah, you, you really came over here to, to, to fuss about Twitter.

Leo Laporte (02:16:58):
Blue Sky's the closest thing to keeping Twitter alive. But Twitter isn't dead yet. I don't, I don't know what the answer is. I really don't. I love our little Mastodon instance, but it's not This's not a Twitter. It's not gonna do that. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:17:12):
Maston's an entirely

Leo Laporte (02:17:13):
Different experience. Yeah. I like these. What, what do they call 'em? Feeds my feeds that they created. I think this, these are really great. Oh,

Ant Pruitt (02:17:23):
I just, I've not noticed

Leo Laporte (02:17:25):
That. That's a nice new feature that's fairly

Ant Pruitt (02:17:27):
New.

Leo Laporte (02:17:27):
Oh, it's brand new. So let's new. You can go to my feeds.

Jeff Jarvis (02:17:30):
You can pick them. Go to my feeds in settings and, and then you can pick different feeds. So the people

Leo Laporte (02:17:33):
Are, they have some base feeds that they've started and then there are new feeds that you can subscribe to. And in mobile it's even easier. It's at the bottom. It's the upside down breast with <laugh> things coming off of it.

Ant Pruitt (02:17:46):
It's okay. <Laugh> same feeds.

Leo Laporte (02:17:50):
Okay. Yeah. So I subscribe to what's hot popular with friends. So I know what you, my friends are following mutuals, which are people who we, we follow each other catch up in case I meet something. And then there's a Blue Sky team has its own, it

Jeff Jarvis (02:18:04):
Was Discover New Feeds. Click on that. Cause there's all kinds of,

Leo Laporte (02:18:07):
There's oh, a whole bunch of 'em. I don't

Stacey Higginbotham (02:18:08):
Have any of

Ant Pruitt (02:18:09):
This. I don't have Discover new, new feeds. I

Leo Laporte (02:18:12):
Don't either. So start with, go to my feeds, click the gear, I'm in

Stacey Higginbotham (02:18:16):
My

Leo Laporte (02:18:16):
Feeds. Click the gear. Oh, it's

Ant Pruitt (02:18:18):
Up.

Leo Laporte (02:18:18):
Then under at the bottom, discover New Feeds.

Jeff Jarvis (02:18:22):
And then here's the other thing that's gonna confusing. If you wanna find, if, if you think you're gonna find all these feeds you've subscribed to under my feeds, you won't find them there. You find them on the homepage, on the

Leo Laporte (02:18:31):
Top, they become okay. If you look at the top here, they become attacked. Took me five minutes

Stacey Higginbotham (02:18:36):
To figure out there's a black sky.

Leo Laporte (02:18:38):
Yeah. That's it. Which is nice

Stacey Higginbotham (02:18:40):
About that. Which is post from black

Leo Laporte (02:18:41):
Users. It's an easy way to, to

Ant Pruitt (02:18:43):
Hashtag.

Leo Laporte (02:18:44):
Yeah. I, you know, on Twitter I have show pictures. Oh yeah. Don't, don't show pictures. There was a tr there's been weird trends. Like there was a trend to show bottoms.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:18:54):
Oh. There's like, there's a whole section for LDS and for not suitable for works. Yeah. And for more nudes. Yeah. There's

Leo Laporte (02:19:00):
A lot of, yeah, there's quite a few of those. Yeah. The, but on the other hand, if you follow Cat picks, the cats are naked. But who cares? Well that's not a cat.

Ant Pruitt (02:19:10):
<Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:19:12):
I like the cat picks feed all cats all the time.

Ant Pruitt (02:19:17):
S I still look. Can I just search sports? Cuz I, I haven't seen one thing about sports in here.

Leo Laporte (02:19:23):
Well it's

Stacey Higginbotham (02:19:23):
Probably, you can start talking about sports and people will find you and then you can follow them.

Jeff Jarvis (02:19:28):
Yeah. Yeah. Let's give that a try. Cuz I have a whole, what's difference between a handful? You get a list of toots or skeets or whatever these things are called and there's like nothing, no response on them. Hardly

Leo Laporte (02:19:39):
A fee. So a list is just a list of people to follow. The feed can also be created to follow hashtags and other things. It's, it's a much more sophisticated technology to create feeds. So just, you know, here's NBA post. So then hash, see, so this is just a hashtag. If there's a hashtag n B in it, then it'll be all the that'll be the, that'll be in the feed. All right. So that's where it, it is a little more sophisticated than just lists. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Oh, podcasting. Here's a, I saw that. I should add that. Oh, well I wonder how much stuff is in here.

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:14):
11. Like by 11.

Leo Laporte (02:20:17):
Yeah. So this is by name. There's Amanda Knox you mentioned. Anyway, I, yeah, I, I, the good news is there's a lot going on, surely. And there's a lot going on. There's a lot of creativity happening. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> people, obviously the internet community has decided we want something like Twitter. We need Twitter. And if it's not gonna be Twitter, then we, let's try some other things. And I think that's all great. I don't, I have no Twitter.

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:40):
Are you using Noster at all?

Leo Laporte (02:20:42):
No. I have an account on it, but I haven't used it. That's another kind of, it's very similar to Blue Sky. Right? It has its own federation protocol. Jack put money into it. <Laugh> people who are trying to avoid

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:54):
Jack Dorsey Apple's left scuttlebutt to go there.

Leo Laporte (02:20:57):
Rabbel has left Scuttlebutt.

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:59):
Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:21:00):
That I thought that was

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:01):
His There's a story thing. There's a story in the rundown. I hate to do it again. No,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:21:06):
No. What is this? Creeping rundown?

Leo Laporte (02:21:08):
No,

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:09):
No. Line 68, no Lake. The analysis of Blue Sky versus Noer. Oh, this could be a good 20 minute or

Stacey Higginbotham (02:21:19):
This wouldn't be so bad, except I get so excited when it's time for our thing. And I'm like,

Leo Laporte (02:21:23):
Ladies and gentlemen,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:21:24):
Almost done. And then that goes ladies from like,

Leo Laporte (02:21:25):
Ladies gentlemen, 30 minutes ladies, boys and girls, children of all ages. You know what's next? It's circus time. No, it's k it's gonna be our picks of the week coming up. We'll start the picks of the week this week with Stacey Hugin. Balham. What's your thing?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:21:42):
I don't have a thing. Instead you were

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:44):
Excited and now you don't have a thing. You're confusing me here. What's going on, Stacy?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:21:49):
I in instead. <Laugh> instead. Y'all calm yourself. Okay. and I can't remember, did I? Okay. I read this book called Poverty. Hmm. Very recently. Did I tell you about it yet? No,

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:08):
I think you might have mentioned it, but my, I don't remember. Don't remember If

Leo Laporte (02:22:11):
I,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:22:12):
So if y'all don't remember it, then that is my pick of the week cuz I've been reading it. And God, man, I feel real bad. It's called Poverty by America. It's by Matthew Desmond, who is the guy who did evicted. You need to read this book. It shows how we

Leo Laporte (02:22:29):
Do, we create poverty

Stacey Higginbotham (02:22:32):
Making like individuals. We have a role in the, the creation of poverty. And there's a reason why so many people in America are so incredibly poor. And I think given the amount of income inequality, given the amount of hair pulling we have about like dealing with homeless people, you need to read this. And you need to like really consider like our role and how we like what we need to do and what we need to give up and how to talk about this.

Leo Laporte (02:23:06):
If he alone had a solution for homelessness, I would be thrilled. Does he talk about what we can do about it?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:23:15):
He talks about the costs and like Nimbyism and second owning second homes and

Leo Laporte (02:23:21):
Why there's homeless

Stacey Higginbotham (02:23:22):
Landlords.

Leo Laporte (02:23:23):
Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:23:24):
Yeah. So he talks about why we have such systemic poverty and it's, and he blames us. Like yeah, it's not a book that you're gonna feel great reading, but you should read it anyway. Yeah. it's really a, like, it's gonna make you angry but probably feel a little guilty too. So capitalism that is my, yeah, through eight ai.

Leo Laporte (02:23:51):
It's capitalism, it's fun of a capitalist. It's kinda late stage capitalism. That's the problem. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:23:57):
Did I tell you my book idea? No, I'm not gonna write it cuz I would never write a book. Get

Leo Laporte (02:24:02):
Chatt to write it and it's yeah, you're done.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:24:05):
So my book topic is why AI and the iot o t are incompatible with capitalism. It is basically we are building ourselves into this coercive, so surveillance state that is never gonna do us any good and it's just gonna grind us down. Further

Leo Laporte (02:24:22):
Shot Zoba. Oh no.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:24:24):
And you can call it moral panic, but I think I would make compelling arguments.

Leo Laporte (02:24:28):
It's more Corey Doctoral than Shohan Zuboff. How about that? Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:24:32):
Cory Doctoral and I we're on the same page.

Leo Laporte (02:24:34):
Absolutely agree with Corey in every response. Hey,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:24:37):
Have you read Red Team? Is it Red Team?

Leo Laporte (02:24:39):
No, I haven't read it yet. No, I know he's, it's really good. Is it? Oh, maybe. We'll, lemme

Stacey Higginbotham (02:24:43):
Get the right title.

Leo Laporte (02:24:44):
We'll love to make it a book for Red Team Blues. It's about a forensic accountant. You know how exciting they are. <Laugh>. Yay. He

Stacey Higginbotham (02:24:52):
Does, he does a good job.

Leo Laporte (02:24:53):
He is the new James Bond. He's a forensic accountant and he's gonna be the next James Bond. I think Corey has goals, visions of having a movie series. He's talking to Albert R. Broccoli, the whole thing. I will read it. I've been, it's on my list. I've got, in fact, you know what, let me add that to my, my my my books. And there's a very good New York Times book review of of poverty. If you want to kind of the, the short, the short version of the book. But I, I did buy you're

Stacey Higginbotham (02:25:23):
Gonna see fewer things from Stacy because Stacy is buying fewer things. But as a big, well, you know, what

Leo Laporte (02:25:27):
I'm doing now is I got the new Kindle scribe that you write with, you know, you have a mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Oh, and I and it's big. It's eight by 10. It's like a nice size. Who? And well I know it seems big to like hold it, but on the other hand I like it cause it's more like reading a book and I'm so far I like it. So I'm buying more stuff on the on the Kindle. How do you

Jeff Jarvis (02:25:45):
Compare it to the remarkable?

Leo Laporte (02:25:47):
Well, it's, I'm glad you asked because this Sunday I will be doing a rundown of the Kindle Scribe, the Remarkable two and an iPad running good notes software and the pros and cons of each. You

Stacey Higginbotham (02:25:58):
Said you're doing this Sunday, do you need your Cobo back specific show

Leo Laporte (02:26:00):
To show? It would be on a show that I like to call, ask the Tech guys. Oh, okay. Cool. Thank you for asking. Good show Sunday 11:00 AM to 2:00 PM Little little

Jeff Jarvis (02:26:08):
Preview you still use. Remarkable.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:26:09):
Is this like this call-in

Leo Laporte (02:26:10):
Show? No, I don't, I don't use the remarkable I'm not a pen guy. And the reason, but this is what I'm gonna, I'll give you a preview of what I'm probably gonna say is it really depends on your use case, right? So for me, akin the problem with the remarkable, you can read books on it, but it's not a book reader. The Kindle is, it has a backlight, it's great for reading books and it adds the annotation and the, and the note taking capability. What it lacks

Jeff Jarvis (02:26:33):
Annotate PDFs.

Leo Laporte (02:26:35):
Yes, you can, but what it lacks is the, is the remarkable. It's, you know, it has an app and you can just see what you've written on the app. Remember we went over this and you never got it working, but it works. Or on the desktop. But now they've added a subscription, which is, I'm not thrilled about. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So if export, you know, if you wanna like read legal briefs, annotate them and export that out, the remarkables obviously the choice. But for me, this is a book reader that allows me to do more with annotations and have a notebook as well. Cuz I sometimes need to sketch stuff out. Especially when I'm doing my coding challenges. I need to sketch things out and stuff. And so I need a little notebook to do that with. And this is a good choice anyway. Cool. I think it'll be an interesting review, but as a result I'm buying more stuff to read. Like I'm gonna buy poverty on the Kindle. I did buy poverty on the Kindle.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:27:26):
Don't buy Cory Doctor's book on the Kindle cuz he will straight up cup. No, you know, better than, that's a good

Leo Laporte (02:27:31):
Point. How do I, oh, I have to go to Well

Stacey Higginbotham (02:27:37):
Do not, you do not wanna do that because I can

Leo Laporte (02:27:39):
Get an ebook I think can get a different Can mail it to him though? No, no. I can, I can get the ebook and mail it to me. But you can get

Jeff Jarvis (02:27:44):
It as a pd, as a, as an e as a, that's

Leo Laporte (02:27:46):
The other format as an open, like a ebook. Eub eub. Eub. Not Moby, not Moby Eub. Mr. Jeff Jarvis. Do you have a number?

Jeff Jarvis (02:27:57):
Sure I do. Sure

Leo Laporte (02:27:58):
You do. I have at least

Jeff Jarvis (02:27:59):
Five or six of 'em to keep spacing

Leo Laporte (02:28:01):
Here. Give us one.

Jeff Jarvis (02:28:02):
I well I'm gonna plug I really interesting discussion between Reed Hoffman and Trevor and Noah. Reid's doing a a podcast series of famous people cuz he's Reid Hoffman. They'll, they'll listen to,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:28:16):
They'll come on his show. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (02:28:18):
And Trevor, I didn't know, has been doing work at Microsoft for years. He's very knowledgeable about ai. He was the voice of AI in Black Panther, which I didn't realize. And so they had a really interesting conversation about ai. I wanted to plug that. Google is offloading, trying to offload, I think is the proper firm. 1.4 million square feet of Bay Area office space. They just opened the new huge, huge

Leo Laporte (02:28:41):
Campus. Holy cow.

Jeff Jarvis (02:28:42):
That's a lot of office space down in the peninsula mainly. So geez,

Leo Laporte (02:28:50):
They, you know, it's funny because right before Covid all these companies were building out massive office space. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. No,

Jeff Jarvis (02:28:56):
Exactly.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:28:57):
Oh, sp this is sort of related. Well, San Jose is not really that close. Nevermind. I was gonna say no. Well,

Jeff Jarvis (02:29:02):
Austin, they were doing this huge San Jose project, which they put on. So

Stacey Higginbotham (02:29:05):
Austin, based on the top, the census data, Austin hit the top 10 like largest cities based on census data out a couple weeks ago, everybody

Leo Laporte (02:29:14):
Left California to go to Texas.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:29:16):
They, they left San Jose cuz it knocked out San Jose.

Jeff Jarvis (02:29:21):
Wow.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:29:23):
Just throwing that out there.

Jeff Jarvis (02:29:24):
I'm convention. One quick thing for ai, back to the early part was, was that, that I saw one paper this week said that they're trying to solve the problem of facts in ai, which I don't think is solvable. I'm with, with, with a large language models, which I don't think is solvable. One thing they're doing, one experiment was to have one AI cross-examine the other, and that, that fuels some help, which is an interesting approach. That's it. I'm done

Leo Laporte (02:29:48):
Mr. An Pruit

Ant Pruitt (02:29:51):
With my pick the week. I thought about Mr. Jarvis, but again, I I, there's another one that I wanted to share and I said, no, I'm not gonna torture him. So I wanted to go with this one. And it's talking Science and Sports with Stephen A. Smith and Neil Degrass Tyson. Oh, interesting. On Stephen a Smith's show. And it was a fabulous, fabulous conversation. It wasn't as, wasn't a lot of sports talk on it, but it was just really r really good information between the two. These two gentlemen. I I'm

Jeff Jarvis (02:30:21):
Gonna, I'm really unhappy. I was supposed to, tomorrow morning I was supposed to go and sit down for a fireside with Negras Tyson after at an AI event. Oh. And they canceled me cuz they wanted somebody who would speak to the AI CEOs there.

Ant Pruitt (02:30:40):
<Laugh>, why not you?

Jeff Jarvis (02:30:42):
I don't know. I'm insulted. Who

Leo Laporte (02:30:44):
Did they pitch? Oh, instead I'm curious. I don't know. Find out. I said,

Jeff Jarvis (02:30:47):
Well give you a ticket. Well, no thank you.

Leo Laporte (02:30:49):
That tells you, oh, little something going on there. Wow. They must have, they used to realized you work with me and they said, no, we can't

Jeff Jarvis (02:30:56):
Be on's

Leo Laporte (02:30:57):
All you, you can't use him.

Jeff Jarvis (02:30:58):
All, all you, you,

Leo Laporte (02:30:59):
Stephen A. Smith talks science. Yep.

Ant Pruitt (02:31:02):
Because I remember Mr. Jarvis met Stephen A. Smith or or was in the same room with them recently at a conference. Yes, it was.

Jeff Jarvis (02:31:09):
It was. And I've been in the same room with Dylan Ra Tyson.

Ant Pruitt (02:31:12):
And yeah, it was really good. I, I enjoyed, it's about an hour long conversation. Nice. It's just, just thank you because I, I'm, I'm a TD for this weekend space and I joke with Mr. Rod Powell all the time about how I really don't give a crap about space, but I have a good time every

Jeff Jarvis (02:31:31):
Friday. Camera B is gonna gonna pull your plug

Ant Pruitt (02:31:33):
And Taric talk about space because they, they, it's enlightening and they put it in a conversation that I can understand. It's someone that's not super technical about the, the ins and outs of space and so forth. It, so I just

Stacey Higginbotham (02:31:48):
Recorded an episode.

Ant Pruitt (02:31:49):
You know,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:31:51):
I just recorded an episode for like two weeks from now on building l t e networks on the moon. It

Ant Pruitt (02:31:57):
Was awesome. Oh, wow. <Laugh>. So Dcom Smart <laugh>.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:32:02):
I was, I was like, yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:32:03):
You see, you see

Leo Laporte (02:32:05):
<Laugh>. That's my slogan now. Know what's next. See <laugh>. Turn on Twit.

Ant Pruitt (02:32:09):
Turn on Twit.

Leo Laporte (02:32:10):
L T e on the moon. Turn on Stacy. But Stacy's part of it, right? Yes. Stacy On i.com That's the website. The podcast is there with Kevin Tofu. Will that be part of the sta the iot cast or is it a separate

Stacey Higginbotham (02:32:23):
Yeah, yeah. I'll, I'll let y'all know when it comes out cuz I'm really excited about it. I can't wait to hear. I'm sorry. I, I mean, I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I'm like

Ant Pruitt (02:32:31):
On the news she's popped up.

Leo Laporte (02:32:32):
The only reason any of us are here is to toot our own horn.

Ant Pruitt (02:32:37):
That's, that's no comment. Speaking

Leo Laporte (02:32:39):
With <laugh>.

Ant Pruitt (02:32:40):
No comment.

Leo Laporte (02:32:42):
Toot your own horn. Jeff Jarvis. He is the author of the Gutenberg parenthesis now available for pre-order. If you go to gutenberg parenthesis.com, you can get your own copy from a variety of sources. You choose Will there be a Kindle version? I bet there will.

Jeff Jarvis (02:32:59):
Yes. There will be a They just told me, they just told me that they're gonna do an audiobook version. Yay. Oh, you're kidding. Yay. Oh, a little late. But yeah, we'll do item. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (02:33:07):
Nice. Cool.

Leo Laporte (02:33:09):
I'm

Jeff Jarvis (02:33:09):
Hoping I will read it.

Leo Laporte (02:33:11):
Yeah, you should read it. Absolutely. you read your other audio books, right? That what would Google do? You did that. Yeah, so,

Jeff Jarvis (02:33:18):
But you know, I I listened to audio books mainly at 1.75 to two x, which is insane. A little slower than me actually in normal speed. So when I listened to an audio book at regular speed, I just can't,

Leo Laporte (02:33:32):
It's funny. I have to start, I have to get used to listening at higher speed cuz You do, you do that Lisa does that. I take forever to read a book. I mean, it takes me a month to read an audio book cause I don't commute anymore. And so it has to be like bit here, bit there.

Ant Pruitt (02:33:45):
One quarter. You shouldn't walk somewhere in that area.

Leo Laporte (02:33:48):
I do walk. I, you know what,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:33:50):
I'm at 1 65.

Leo Laporte (02:33:51):
Yes. Unless you, this is the particular people who go through audio books, don't listen at one point. Oh. Same with podcast, by the way. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. A lot of people when they listen to us in, in real time, think we're all drunk. They're like,

Jeff Jarvis (02:34:03):
Well yeah, because we talk for <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:34:10):
Jeff is the director of the Town Night Center for Entrepreneurial Journalism at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York. Spoke to

Jeff Jarvis (02:34:22):
Craig. I saw Craig at an event for the school just last night.

Leo Laporte (02:34:24):
Did he say strangle that Laport feller <laugh> something. Face killer Ghost face. Killer Ghost fell killers coming after me. House Face Killer. Aunt Pruitt is of course the host of Hands on Photography. We see him there. Yep. he's all of course all over the place at the twit offices, including in our club where he is the manager, the community manager and you can find his prints@auntpruitt.com. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> slash

Ant Pruitt (02:34:51):
And also Prince, go get your colonoscopy people.

Leo Laporte (02:34:55):
Is that why you were out? Yes. Oh,

Ant Pruitt (02:34:58):
Go get your colonoscopy

Leo Laporte (02:34:59):
People. Not everybody.

Ant Pruitt (02:35:01):
As a black man, I am, I am quite concerned and wanting to make sure I get my, my checkups

Leo Laporte (02:35:07):
Regularly. I just read a article that says TV doctors want you to get a checkup every year, but, but really it's a bad idea. <Laugh>. So

Ant Pruitt (02:35:17):
I get a, I get no colon

Leo Laporte (02:35:18):
Cancer rates are on the rise. Younger people, especially black in Latin American.

Ant Pruitt (02:35:23):
It used to be 50 years old. Hispanic the time, but no,

Leo Laporte (02:35:27):
Not, yeah, I got one on and prostate cancer. I got a sigmoidoscopy when I was, which is a little, let's talk about the details. It's less, you know what than a colonoscopy. Guys, let's not talk about this. He said my colon. He said my colon was clean as a whistle.

Ant Pruitt (02:35:43):
Excellent.

Leo Laporte (02:35:43):
Yeah. That's good, right? I think Yeah, <laugh> can whistle. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (02:35:48):
My

Leo Laporte (02:35:48):
Colon

Jeff Jarvis (02:35:48):
Whistle from his butt.

Leo Laporte (02:35:50):
Yeah. Anyway ask your doctor, don't just go out to the, you know, colonoscopy shop on the corner. No. And say, I'm here. You should get a prescription. Make sure your doctor says to get one, obviously. But if, but yeah, don't hide from it. You, you want's hold saying Don't, don't hide from it.

Ant Pruitt (02:36:08):
Don't hide from it.

Leo Laporte (02:36:09):
Don't hide from it. End

Ant Pruitt (02:36:10):
Of it

Jeff Jarvis (02:36:11):
Yourself. Stay with prostate folks. Take it from one who, some who's had

Leo Laporte (02:36:14):
One. Well, you know, it's funny. I wanted a psa they do blood tests for a prostate. I wanted a psa. My doctor said we don't do those anymore. And it turns out Yeah, this is, again, this is a new trend in medicine of over does. They don't wanna do overdiagnosis. So he said before, I'll give you a PSA test. You have to go on the site and read about it. What the ups and the pros and cons are. Turns out it's not unusual to have a false positive. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and people have procedures they don't need, which are life-threatening <laugh> and there's no need for 'em. Yeah. So now they're saying, on the other hand, it's the

Jeff Jarvis (02:36:48):
Same doing. Same with, same with my mammograms though. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:36:51):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>,

Jeff Jarvis (02:36:52):
You're either part of a statistical pool where they say, well, okay, you're or you're one person. Right. And as one person, I wish I still had mine. Yeah. But when they took it out and they did the biopsy and they said it was the fast growing type.

Leo Laporte (02:37:05):
Oh, that's good. You did it. I did by the way. Go ahead and get a psa. And my PSA was very good. So excellent. Good. I don't, I don't know what that means. But they no longer Why? This is really tmmi. They no longer do the turn your head and cost thing. No, they stopped doing that because for same reason. It turned out it wasn't useful. Right. And it was no fun for the doctor looking for It's been, it was no fun. They were looking for a large prostate, but they apparently it was not worthwhile. I thought it was for like hemorroids or something, or horrible. Only for hemorrhoids. It's a little deeper than that. <Laugh>. I don't know that stuff anymore. How far did he roll up his sleeves? That's the question. <Laugh>, ladies and gentlemen, we do This Week in Google Every Wednesday up his sleeves.

(02:37:49):
We'll be with you in a moment, Mr. Chavis. I kick get it higher. We do This Week in Google every Wednesday, 2:00 PM Pacific, 5:00 PM Eastern Time. Jackhammer's permitting, <laugh> <laugh> live twit tv. You can watch us. That laugh for you just heard came from the club, which you better join. That's a nervous, a nervous laugh, let me put it that way. <Laugh> after The fact OnDemand versions of the show available at twit.tv/TWiG. There's a YouTube channel. You know what though? I really wanna urge everybody to subscribe. It's the easiest thing to do. Find your favorite podcast application. Search for TWiG or search for twit. Subscribe to all the shows, get 'em automatically. That way you've got plenty of stuff to listen to. Anytime you've got a free moment, we'll be glad to be here for you. So subscribe in your favorite podcast player.

(02:38:40):
Thank you everybody for being here. Thank you for putting up with us. Thank you, Stacy. We'll be back next week. Thank you, Stacy, for another long grueling episode of This Week in Google. Bye bye-Bye. <Laugh> <laugh>.

Jason Howell (02:38:56):
If you love all things Android, well, I've got a show for you to check out. It's called All About Android, and I'll give you three guesses. What we talk about. We talk about Android, the latest news, hardware, apps, we answer feedback. It's me, Jason Howell, Ron Richards wins with Dow and a whole cast of awesome characters talking about the operating system that we love. You can find all about Android at twit tv/aaa