This Week in Google 709, Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for TWiG This Week in Google. Stacey has the week off. Glenn Fleischman is here. He'll give us some jeopardy tips from his appearance there. Ant Pruitt, Jeff Jarvis, Elon Musk, and others say, let's pause AI research until we're sure this is safe. Is that the right thing to do? The internet archive loses its fight, but should they have lost? We'll also talk about TikTok and a Norwegian ammo company that says we can't make bullets because TikTok is right next door. All that, and a lot more. Coming up next on TWiG! Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is TWiT.

This is TWiG This Week in Google. Episode 709 Recorded Wednesday, March 29th. 2023. The Egg from Hell This Week in Google is brought to you by HPE GreenLake, orchestrated by the experts at CDW who can help you consolidate and manage all your data in one flexible edge to cloud platform to scale and innovate. Learn more at Thanks for listening to this show. As an ad supported network, we are always looking for new partners with products and services that will benefit our qualified audience. Are you ready to grow your business? Reach out to and launch your campaign now.

It's time for TWiG! This Week in Google, the show where we get together with some people that I like and talk about stuff that really has nothing to do with Google, so really false advertising all around. Ant Pruitt is here from Hands-on Photography. Hello, aunt. Hello, Mr. Laporte. How you be? Sir? Did you enjoy Richard Campbell's description of distillation on the, on Windows Weekly? Unfortunately, I couldn't watch the live stream because I was stuffing my face with the awesome TWiT provided Lunch. Oh, <laugh>. Well then, yes, given the Choice Lunch and any of our shows, <laugh>, I would choose lunch. And I'll blame you, but I will be going back and checking out the rerun Yeah, he was, it was good. We were talking about still he's so knowledgeable. Yeah, it was, it's, it's now been like a three or four part series on how Whiskey's made. It's really fascinating also with us, the Leonard Tow Professor for journalistic innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School Journalism at the city of University of New York. Hello, Jeff. Hello. Hello. Hello. Did you get a new camera, a new hairdo? What's going on? You? The hair. I, I just, I don't know. Is it, is it ridiculous? It's gorgeous. It's not, you look great. It looks like George Washington. I don't know what to do. <Laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (00:02:59):
I've got, I've got cow More than you want know. I've got Cowlicks all Over. So, so this was just puffing up on its own.

Leo Laporte (00:03:03):
If you could get a powdered wig that looked like that, I would wear it. It's fabulous. Hey,

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:07):
I think I'm gonna take that as Mockery

Leo Laporte (00:03:09):
<Laugh>. No, it looks good. It looks, dunno looks really good. No, and the and, and you're not too pink, which is why I'm asking about the camera. I mean, it just really looks Oh, the

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:16):
Camera. No, no, no. It's just the, it's the luck of the moment when I Come on. That's all. It'll, it'll screw

Leo Laporte (00:03:21):
Up. It's the glow.

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:22):
It's lighter here now. So the light will change.

Leo Laporte (00:03:23):
Yeah, the glow of the light from Bedminster just glowing on you. Also. Here's

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:28):
Light from the West. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:03:30):
Stacy has the week off. But good news, Glen Fleischman has agreed, has consented to fill in. Nice to see you. Oh, welcome. Hoy.

Glenn Fleishman (00:03:39):
Hoy. Nice to see you, everybody.

Leo Laporte (00:03:40):
Oh, ho Hoy. Hi, Glen.

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:43):
Hi Glen, since the success of his Kickstarter.

Leo Laporte (00:03:46):
Oh, that, that's right. I's right. So how much did you raise for Shift happens,

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:53):
$753,000 and some change. So

Leo Laporte (00:03:57):
That would be three quarters of a million dollars.

Jeff Jarvis (00:04:01):
Amazing. Amazing. Pretty wild.

Leo Laporte (00:04:03):
And that book, people like Keyboards, which you helped kind of f Foster written by Marcin. That's not the book. This, the book Wichary sh gotta say it. Carefully Is all about keyboards. There's something about keyboards and keyboard nerds. It's just kind of amazing. So, congratulations.

Jeff Jarvis (00:04:32):
Thank you. It's very, very exciting. What

Leo Laporte (00:04:33):
Do you do with the extra money? Is that like payday for Marcing or?

Glenn Fleishman (00:04:38):
Well, you know, mattresses feel really good when they're stuffed with 20

Leo Laporte (00:04:42):
Bills. <Laugh>. Yes.

Glenn Fleishman (00:04:45):
The banking system has shown it was the best place to put your money now. Yeah. Well, no, we make, we make things get better. So that's the Kickstarter thing is it's really hard to change your pricing and tier, like at one point we're like, could we reduce the shipping? Although shipping is kind of inflexible. So instead we've we had stretch goals. So instead of originally it was like, well, we'll add a third volume with some extras. Now the third volume's gonna be 160 pages and full color. So the whole thing is actually 1,376 pages <laugh> divided across, holy cow. You know, we're denoting entire forests, so there's a lot of trees are dying for this. Yeah. From very long and complicated conversations with the printers in Maine, unfortunately, wow. There are a lot of trees near Maine that could just go chop a few more down in order to wow. Produce the

Leo Laporte (00:05:29):
Paper. You, you've also put some energy into games on the shift Happens website. There's some really fun stuff.

Glenn Fleishman (00:05:36):
Yeah. Marching made this great one, which is a typewriter, like a manual typewriter simulator. Yeah. which is shift Happens site slash typewriter. And if you go there, you can type and it has like a piece of paper you can move around. And <laugh> it actually has, if you type too fast, it overtypes. So

Leo Laporte (00:05:53):

Jeff Jarvis (00:05:53):
It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of

Leo Laporte (00:05:55):
Fun. There's a whole generation, this is that. No idea what a typewriter is.

Glenn Fleishman (00:06:00):
Yeah. Ask somebody a dial phone. I'll tell you one of the funniest things that I did a few months ago is YouTube brought up this one of those old self-help, or not self-help videos, but they were like, sometimes multi-hour VHSs you'd get that would be how to use the Commodore 64 or something like that. And this shows up a digitized version, our YouTube feed. And my 15 year old is like, oh, let's watch that. And everything is amazing to them. They're like, wait, you could choose from 16 colors. Like, yes, we had as many as 16 colors <laugh> before the guy goes to pull the five and a quarter inch disk out. And my, my Alex is like, what is that? I'm like, oh, well that was the smaller disk. I used to work with eight inch disks. They said, oh, did eight inch discs hold more storage?

I said, no, no, of course not. <Laugh> they held less. So it's kind of fun to expose the kids to it because they're these sre weirdly, everything is big and floppy and and strange. And they can't even envision like, wait, you worked with this? Like, yeah. So that's, it's always so type typewriters are much more approachable. You sit down, you start tapping away at it. It's great. I went to we now have three typewriter stores in Washington State within about an hour of each other. I went to one that just opened. So apparently we're in a typewriter store. Boom. Oh, you would be. Yes. So, so I don't think we're ready to announce anything yet, but there's a chance that Ooh, Glenn and I and Marcin and Doug Wilson will be together in Massachusetts for an event. That's right, yes. Very exciting. Wow. Right after, after July 4th, if it all works easy

Leo Laporte (00:07:30):
Printing at the incredible Austin Rigs Center for the perpetually depressed, it's gonna be, it'll be so much fun. So much fun. That's great. Congratulations. That's really wonderful. Thank you. It's nice. Thanks for yours. See, good things happen to nice people since they so often happen to awful people. <Laugh>. Exactly. Exactly. Well said. So our top story tonight, our top story tonight is Elon Musk and others calling for a pause, a six month pause on AI citing profound risks to society

Jeff Jarvis (00:08:08):
So Elon can catch up.

Leo Laporte (00:08:10):
Yeah, maybe that's, I, you know, first of all, anything Elon thinks is a good idea, is a bad idea to me. But a lot of other co-signers, including Steven Wozniak, the founder of Apple the the presidential candidate and universal basic income supporter, Andrew Yang,

Jeff Jarvis (00:08:28):
General Latherer of Idiocy

Leo Laporte (00:08:30):
General Blatherer<laugh>, Rachel Bronson, who is the president of the Bulletin of the Atomic of Scientists Gary Marcus, an entrepreneur and academic.

Jeff Jarvis (00:08:40):
Listen, that, that atomic clock, that doomsday clock has never hit 12 yet. Clearly, you know,

Leo Laporte (00:08:46):

Jeff Jarvis (00:08:46):
Interviewed Sensationalizing the Problem

Leo Laporte (00:08:47):
George Church a couple of weeks ago on triangulation. He's a gen father of modern genomics, but also new, new member of the board of the atomic clock folks, the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. And I asked him, he said, yeah, I noticed it never hits, never hit. They said, he said, I don't know how long it's gonna last on the board. He said, yeah, it seems to be that the cl as if they can get it as close as possible to noon, that's always a good thing to get more press that way. <Laugh> <laugh>. And in fact, the, the most recent story about the atomic clock you know, the idea of the Doomsday Clock is if it ever hits noon, it's over for the planet. And the closer we get to the noon, the closer we are to Armageddon is it midnight? It's midnight, not noon. Noon is the bright sun above our heads. It's midnight. You're right, of course, noon, whatever, midnight, 12 o'clock. But the most recent story was, is closer than it's ever been before. Really closer than the, the Cuban Missile Crisis. Really? Anyway. Wow. Anyway it is maybe, perhaps atomic Link bait. I don't know. I,

Glenn Fleishman (00:09:52):
I might have quoted this on the show before, but one of the best things that the guy who did fake Steve Jobs said was I, I always quote this is when Google announced the open hand set Alliance, he said something like losers join alliances, <laugh>. And there's something about if you're winning, you don't need an alliance. You just have your product. So something about Elon Musk and a bunch of people saying, whoa, whoa, this is going too fast cuz we're not ready for it yet. It does feel a little

Leo Laporte (00:10:17):
Selfish. Well, as many as people have pointed out, of course, great idea. We should stop open AI while China just goes right on a head catching up. Right. I mean, there's so many obvious, this is just such obviously non-starter of an idea. And the

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:30):
Thing that I've seen a lot of is that it's more of tech boy ego.

Leo Laporte (00:10:37):
Yeah. I think that's what is, we're so

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:39):
Powerful. We're so dangerous. Stop us before we kill. Oh, we could do terrible things. Right. It's

Leo Laporte (00:10:45):
PS that's what somebody said unmasked on, is the letter reads as basically PR hype for the power of ai. Like, exactly. Wow. We're really getting close to agi. We should stop <laugh>. Whereas I think most intelligent people say we are not close to artificial general intelligence

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:06):
The language. And it is just ridiculous.

Leo Laporte (00:11:09):
And, you know, if you don't connect chat G P D four to anything that has agency in the world, it's probably pretty harmless. It's not exactly, you know, gonna set off the nuclear weapons or anything. It can't. Right. Should we

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:23):
Let machines flood our information channels with propaganda non truth? Should we automate all the jobs and we the fulfilling ones? Should we develop non-human minds that might eventually outnumber, outsmart obsolete and replace us? Huh? Should we, should we cherri? You know, the motorized lost your chance. Come on. There you go. <Laugh>. I

Leo Laporte (00:11:43):
He's waiting on you to pause.

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:44):
Oh, okay. I would never, I would never wait for me to breathe. It doesn't happen. The crank driven close ringer really, I think made a lot of housewives unhappy because it took away one of their primary pleasures during the day.

Leo Laporte (00:11:56):
We should have put a six month pause on that hand ringer <laugh>. Yeah. Damn it. Just really had a com let's form a committee to analyze the impact of the hand ringer on the Women of America.

Jeff Jarvis (00:12:10):
I didn't, I seems to be so much panic about the chat-based AI stuff, but it, you know, we are already seeing incredible limitations. We don't know, I know I've said this before, but it's, I feel like there's this idea that all technology reaches an apotheosis, but AI has limitations. We don't know how close they get. Like, can chat-based g p chan can a generalized chat-based AI that can answer kind of any question, can it actually be trained to not hallucinate? We don't know the answer to that. Nobody in computer science or in businesses knows the answer. Hallucination like invention of things may just be an inherent risk in the algorithm. There's no way to do that without clamping down and making it domain expertise specific, which can be very useful, but it's not, doesn't prove the same kind of scare.

Leo Laporte (00:12:57):

Jeff Jarvis (00:12:57):
Other thing, Glenn, I think, I think you're right. A a I think the answer to that is no in its present form. Large language models, Emily Bender talks about this all the time, cannot do that. B you're right. If they are domain specific, then, then, then perhaps. But what gets B most at right now is that in their present form, it is wildly irresponsible for Microsoft and Google to talk about their use in search one and two, it is wildly irresponsible for media to turn around. And I caught it in an error. It's gonna destroy mankind and then have an impact on where we are. And I got a discussion about this with somebody on, on mask on today. Well, shouldn't we stop? Shouldn't we stop? There's a great essay by James Doer from, from the Rand whatever it is, Rand Corporation in the nineties. So we've gotta get to the unintended consequences faster so we get to the experience. So we learn what the impact are so we can then do something. If we stop it, we can't learn anything, then we just, we're just stopping the clock for six months and then we'll come back in six months and say, oh, do we want anything more? No, we can't. Cause we didn't use it.

Leo Laporte (00:13:56):
So before, before you used chat G P T to cheat on Wordle <laugh>, by the way, so John, you, you must have had, you had a Wordle game where you had the second letter, you knew was you, the fifth letter is o So John asked chat, g p t, do you know any five letter words with a second letter is you, and the fifth letter is, oh, it suggested flute <laugh> what?

Jeff Jarvis (00:14:24):

Leo Laporte (00:14:25):
Brute fruit grunt, truce, spruce, crude prune, spr and glute. None of which have, oh, and the fifth letter

Jeff Jarvis (00:14:36):
It doesn't understand anything

Leo Laporte (00:14:37):
And, and none of which have you in the second letter. It was just wrong. So then you gave it as little a nudge in the answers you gave. John says, the second letter is not you. I apologize for the error in my previous response. Here are some five letter words where the second letter is you and the fifth letter is, oh, bound clout. <Laugh> Flout. No, no. <Laugh>. You can't even play Wordle.

Jeff Jarvis (00:15:09):
No, I I asked it to there's a new product called A Wavelength that's like an integrated chat based thing with, so it's a human based oh God chat system. Yes.

Leo Laporte (00:15:18):
This is John gr gruber's, but ridiculous. Okay, go ahead.

Jeff Jarvis (00:15:22):
But I just tried the chat. It has integrated chat. G P T Yeah. In it. And I'm like, oh, because

Leo Laporte (00:15:27):
Everything's better with an AI in it. Right?

Jeff Jarvis (00:15:30):
So I said, I said, I figure this is a straightforward one. It's said, explain Einstein's theory of relativity as a very short poem in Aab B or A B a B format. Yeah. And it gives me a B. And I said, no, you're wrong. That's A A, B B. This says, oh, I'm sorry. You're right. And it gives me a, a b again. It's like, no, that's Stone. Did you know how to do this? And it gives me a, a a, a and I'm like, you're still, I said, maybe you shouldn't be writing poetry chat. Gpt <laugh>,

Leo Laporte (00:15:55):
You know, GPT, honestly chat GPT four probably would do that better. I don't know what chat they put into wavelength. Wavelengths an interesting story. So you got suckered in too. John Gruber on his Dar Fireball, I'm, anything publishes like a 4,000 word article About halfway through he says, oh, by the way, I'm a sp I'm an advisor to it. And they gave me some stock. That's why. So you should have put it front, you know, hashtag ad hashtag sponsor. I think John thought because it wasn't a lot of stock that, oh, I, you know, it's okay. But all it is is a end. It's good. It's end-to-end encrypted group chat. It's like end-to-end encrypted group chat. Not from Facebook is, its selling point plus ai I forgot. Plus ai

Jeff Jarvis (00:16:43):
Plus some. Yeah. It's listen, I'll tell you one cup buzz word

Leo Laporte (00:16:46):

Jeff Jarvis (00:16:47):
It, <laugh>. If if John hands me, if John pours me a drink, I'm gonna drink it. So that's the Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:16:51):
That's, and that's what a lot of people did. In fact, that's funny cuz he's, I that's who's, that's who's in here is all of the you know, all Jason Snell, Merlin Mann, Glen Fleischman, it's all the, it's all the the Apple Mafia. So

Jeff Jarvis (00:17:06):
We're all in the Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I like that people are experimenting. I mean this, you know, the, the gi AI integration aside, I think that instant messaging is really stagnated. So I love that somebody's trying to figure out a way to do something that's not iMessage or WhatsApp, but, you know, or signal or something. There's just, it's very, but let me ask you this. I'm an old person, I guess John mentioned he's like, he's an a bunch of group chats that have hundreds of people in them. Like, I'm in one with my family. I don't have any these group

Leo Laporte (00:17:34):
Chats. Well, that's what a number of people said is who wants that?

Jeff Jarvis (00:17:38):
Right? Some people have this though. There's people who do this all the time, or that's kind of their social thing as a, instead of a Facebook group, it's a big group messaging chat. But that's

Ant Pruitt (00:17:48):
What we've argued in the past. That's when you should just open up your own Slack channel or your own Discord or something like that, you know?

Leo Laporte (00:17:54):

Jeff Jarvis (00:17:55):
I want asynchronous. I don't want people dinging my phone.

Leo Laporte (00:17:58):
Yeah. Well anyway, I, you know, it's fine. I wish he'd said up front, Hey, here's something I'm an advisor on and I'm getting compensated by. I wouldn't have read you think 4,000 World article <laugh> about it.

Ant Pruitt (00:18:11):

Leo Laporte (00:18:13):
Okay. Prediction. I joined it anyway. Yes.

Jeff Jarvis (00:18:17):
Is our, our large language bottles back to AI in in six months. Yes. Or year. Yes.

Leo Laporte (00:18:22):
Will they

Jeff Jarvis (00:18:22):
Be a laughing stock? And not unlike,

Leo Laporte (00:18:25):
I keep asking this question at three. I have asked it on almost every show in the two weeks since chat G B T four came out. What do you, is this a par trick or is this, as many have said, including Bill Gates who said, this is the ne the biggest thing that happened in computing since the graphic user interface.

Jeff Jarvis (00:18:44):
But then he also said that his former company was ridiculous to say that it had hints of, of

Leo Laporte (00:18:50):
It's not hgi, it's not agi. I it's not, it's not. It not. And it, and it never, and it's, I think there's a lot of reason to say maybe it never will be, but I think it is. It's in look how many startups if you go search, I don't know what it is like on the Google Play store, but if I searched the Apple app, iOS app store for ai, there's dozens of apps that are taking the chat G P T A API and, and making, you know, $2 apps. So

Jeff Jarvis (00:19:19):
What's your answer are trick or no? Or, or, or revolution.

Leo Laporte (00:19:24):
I don't know. That's why I keep asking the question. What do you think Len? <Laugh> fresh meat?

Jeff Jarvis (00:19:27):
I I think it's a f I think it's a fad. I think it's a fad. Yeah. And it's

Ant Pruitt (00:19:32):

Jeff Jarvis (00:19:32):
Yeah. But it'll, but it'll break apart. Like, do you remember segway? I'm may, let me, I've been on these shows too often now. Like Segway was supposed to change the way cities were built and it turned out to be a really good vehicle for meter readers and, and Renco and mall cars. It's yeah, yeah. Malco and, but segway is actually a kind of extraordinary thing. And I think it gave rise to that whole

Leo Laporte (00:19:53):
I home <laugh>. Do you the thing that kills Segueways, the same thing that killed the Google glass, which is you look like an ass on it. Yeah. You're like a giraffe. You're eight feet tall zipping around. It's very dumb. And, but I think

Jeff Jarvis (00:20:10):
It actually gave rise to the, to the, the what do they call the hoverboards that burst in the flame. Yeah. And then that generation Gabriel actually there you go. Right. <laugh>. Right. But then that gave rise to the generation of battery powered scooters that are actually pretty cool. And the unicycle self-balancing wheels. I steer around Seattle. So ultimately it was not, the promise of the wasn't re wasn't revealed as all cities are gonna change to build to around it. But electric bikes, electric scooters, I think it did prompt a rethinking about modes of electric powered. Yeah. And sometimes self-balancing transportation. Because you live in as Seattle, you

Leo Laporte (00:20:47):
Have a slightly warped point of view over this <laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (00:20:51):
Wait, doesn't everybody ride a self-balancing bike? I

Leo Laporte (00:20:53):
See them every once in a while. It's very strange. I do think you're right. Seen

Ant Pruitt (00:20:57):
All over Santa Rosa,

Leo Laporte (00:20:58):
Believe it or not. Oh really? Yeah. There's a certain type of young man who likes to ride those <laugh>. But I do see EBI everywhere. In fact, I just saw an article that e-bikes are really catching on in the US You

Jeff Jarvis (00:21:09):
Have segueways and, and e-bikes and you're asking about chat GT's future. It's,

Leo Laporte (00:21:13):
But you know why, you know why e-bikes were acceptable when segways weren't. You look like you're a normal person cuz you're riding a bicycle. Oh yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (00:21:20):
True. That's right. Or a scooter. Right. Even an electric powered scooter is at some level it's different than a segue obviously, but it has a similar functionality. So, so chat G P T I don't think in, in all the AI-based chat things, how useful are they in a general sense? I think not that much, but I think this is kind of like, what was the Apple watch? I don't know. Apple didn't know what it was. Turned out. It's for fitness. I think chat interactive AI models will wind up being useful for some specific stuff. That's like, like as a reporter, I'll tell you. And as, and there's so many people in jobs where they have to do this scut work and the scut work is just kind of putting stuff into forms and kind of doing this thing. It's, it's comp compute, it's automated work that computers can't precisely do. And I could see a role for write me the form letter, an outline and put in the blanks for blah, and it would produce something relatively original. It wouldn't be boring. And I'd go in and fill those blanks in. That seems like a perfectly reasonable use gazillions of jobs. Is it? No, it's augmentation. It makes you a little more efficient. You're better at your job. It takes you less time. It's less frustrating. It increases loyalty to a job. It lets you do higher level work. All the things that robotics did.

Ant Pruitt (00:22:27):
I put that along the same lines of, of creators using AI to just do some repetitive tasks a little bit more efficiently and faster than necessarily taking away their job. If

Leo Laporte (00:22:37):
You'll, I'm totally impressed with what people are doing with Mid journey and stable diffusion and Oh yeah. I think we're gonna see video created by this stuff. But it's Richard Campbell, I think who had the most salient point of view, or one of our hosts on Windows Weekly. He said, we are in the Gartner Hype cycle. This is the graph. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative> that shows the Gartner hype cycle. Absolutely. And we're at the beginning of a technology trigger on our way up to the peak of inflated in expectations. How long

Jeff Jarvis (00:23:05):
Before we

Leo Laporte (00:23:05):
Reached that peak. Then there's the disillusionment. Yeah. Where everybody goes goes, oh yeah, we overhyped to this BS then there is a little bit of a long tail. And I think this is what you're talking about with the segue, where you reach not quite as inflated a height, but the plateau of productivity where after a while there is some value to this. And I think that's, that's actually fairly accurate. We get ready, Richard said, you know, in a couple of months we'll be hitting the trough of disillusionment. I think that's probably

Jeff Jarvis (00:23:36):
The end. Haven't we done that already though? We've gone the peak of, with the peak and the trough several times with it. It's like, oh, it's trying to steal Kevin Roos from his wife and then Yeah. Alright. Maybe it's not that bad.

Leo Laporte (00:23:46):
<Laugh>. Yeah, you're right. We, yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't know where exactly we, maybe, maybe that letter is, is part of the peak of inflated InSpec expectations as much as I can. It's the

Jeff Jarvis (00:23:57):
Roller of disillusionment.

Leo Laporte (00:23:59):
Yeah. but I, you know, there's clearly some value to it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, Google has released Bard. If you guys had a chance to play with Bard, it came out before our show last week, but I hadn't asked Much

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:10):
More limited.

Leo Laporte (00:24:11):
It's not impressive. It really is wrong and

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:14):
It's wrong. It to, I hallucinates the wrong word. I think it just simply doesn't know a lot and gets it wrong as a result.

Leo Laporte (00:24:22):
Let me try you're a word prompt. Do you know any five letter words? I'm gonna have to get faster at typing. That's one of the revelations. All of this is where the second well

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:37):
Computer could do that. Computer could do that for you Type. I

Leo Laporte (00:24:40):
Should actually dictate it, shouldn't I? Yeah, exactly. Letter. That's what I do at home. Yeah. Is you, and the fifth letter is, oh, let's see if it, if it does a better job than chat. G p t did. Was this G P T three or five or four? Do you know? I dunno. There's a 3.5 B maybe

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:59):
Something, some people have access.

Leo Laporte (00:25:00):
I have four. I'll try four with this as well. Let me, I'm pretty sure

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:03):
That's chat g PT

Leo Laporte (00:25:04):
Three. Yeah, that's the early one. Okay.

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:07):
Do you know any five letter? I?

Leo Laporte (00:25:08):
Okay, let me, while we're doing this, while we're waiting, let's go to chat faster

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:10):
Than the computer.

Leo Laporte (00:25:11):
G P T and I will set it to four and do the same thing.

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:16):
How much do you pay? What's the basic

Leo Laporte (00:25:18):
Fee for? I think it's 20 bucks a month or something. I, I ended up paying for a lot of these just so that we could use them on the shows. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. One example of a five letter word that meets your CRI criteria is gumbo. That's right. All right. But just one let's see. Jarvi, Jeff

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:34):
Jarvi, aim <laugh>. It

Leo Laporte (00:25:36):
Gave us some Latin. These are to hear, is that an English word? Our room? Gold. I think this are Latin words.

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:47):
That's Slaton

Leo Laporte (00:25:48):
And ak Dawn. I think those are Latin. And only the first one is qualified. You qualified it by saying Wordle, sir.

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:57):
Should have, you didn't say you wanted, he didn't say five letter words and it gave him a six letter word.

Leo Laporte (00:26:01):
Yeah. And there is no you, I mean there's a U but there's no, the only one with O is ao.

Jeff Jarvis (00:26:09):
Oh my

Leo Laporte (00:26:09):
God. So, okay. Bard gumbo. I mean, clearly gumbo is the right it might be the only answer actually. Was it, was it gumbo? I think it

Jeff Jarvis (00:26:17):
Was. Oh, with the

Leo Laporte (00:26:19):
That's pretty good. That's a hard one. But, so if you're gonna try cheat unwordly, he useche g PT four.

Jeff Jarvis (00:26:27):
You know, Jeff has been kicking around the business for a little while according to his

Leo Laporte (00:26:30):
Publicity. Hey, I brought that old. Yeah, yeah. Got some publicity

Jeff Jarvis (00:26:33):
Photos to show you. And not this time. And you know, I was thinking, you know, if you were a reporter in 19 85, 19 95, 2005, 2015, today, like the amount of work it would take you to do certain kinds of stories over that time. I don't think someone looking at that would say, oh no, the internet has stolen this person's job. Maybe it took 10 people to do something in 1985 that one person could do today. And maybe these AI assisted things could make that even fewer people. So really good point. Player and newspapers would've died a lot sooner without this technology. Right. As, as, as you know, Glenn Kirshenbaum track changes what word processing did to writing and the jobs it got rid of in, in the keystrokes that were not captured in the design strokes that were not captured. The mail room, the itt u all those unions. Right. Very bad for all of them, but it kept newspapers alive longer. Right. But we don't have decreased empl. I mean, our big problem is wage stagnation in America. The growth of waves, wages not employment. You know, if you look at employment curves, we didn't go through as technology waves came through massive waves of unemployment. We went through ever-increasing waves of displacement and employment. But we don't pay people enough. You know, it's a billionaire problem, not a job or product productivity problem. If I can get all economical, I don't know.

Leo Laporte (00:27:56):
<Laugh> well, so I, it's interesting. I think we are in a, again, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be agnostic cause I, I'm not, I'm not, I don't know. I really don't know. But I think you probably are right that this is nothing to fear. Who was it that Stallman said? Seems like I like Richard Stallman take on it. Yeah. Let me read that for you.

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:18):
He was actually taken down by Reddit by the time I found it on the rundown. Oh

Leo Laporte (00:28:21):
Really? Oh really? What,

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:23):
What did he say?

Leo Laporte (00:28:24):
It was a crazy, so just a short paragraph, but I think it's fairly Oh yeah. <Laugh>, it was

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:30):
Taken out. I don't know why

Leo Laporte (00:28:32):
That's weird.

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:33):
Ah, it's Richard Stallman. Probably someone found something.

Leo Laporte (00:28:35):
Oh yeah. Maybe Richard Sudo. I don't know. Let me see. I'll, I'll go somewhere else. No, that's, Reddit

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:41):
Isn't fully running free software if it's not running for you. Surfer, it's a vehicle to

Leo Laporte (00:28:46):
Put words. You know what, ironic,

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:48):
Somebody, somebody said it can't be stallman. It didn't use the word proprietary.

Leo Laporte (00:28:52):
Oh, well, here's the good news. Elon Musk is allowed it on Twitter. Here is an email response when asked about chat. G B T. Richard Stahlman, the creator of the GNU project writer of emax and notorious curmudgeon and woman hater, says, I can't for tell the future, but it is important to realize that chat g p t is not artificial intelligence. It has no intelligence. It doesn't know anything and doesn't understand anything. It plays games with words to make plausible sounding English text. But any statements made in it are liable to be false. It can't avoid that because it doesn't know what the words mean.

Jeff Jarvis (00:29:28):
Exactly. That's, that's actually

Leo Laporte (00:29:30):
Accurate. I think it's right. Nice works. Mr.

Jeff Jarvis (00:29:32):
Stahl, I wonder if it was written by chat G P t though. That's, that's, I wonder, say it wasn't

Leo Laporte (00:29:37):
Written by him. Yeah. Yep. 

Jeff Jarvis (00:29:40):
I irony.

Leo Laporte (00:29:42):
Although that's just how open AI did it, there's no reason that you couldn't, I mean, the, the way chat G P T and all of these large language models work in, in short, in a simplified way, is like auto correct. They have weights for the next word that should follow the current word, and they put it together. They don't understand the meaning, but they can make it sound very cogent because those weights are based on billions of, you know, pieces of text. But they don't at any point under it. It doesn't understand it. So it can't evaluate it as to its accuracy. However, I don't think there's any reason you couldn't write that into the algorithm and say, oh, and by the way, please evaluate for accuracy at the end of each sentence.

Jeff Jarvis (00:30:28):
That's an entirely different routine then.

Leo Laporte (00:30:30):
Yeah, but, well, that there's nothing

Jeff Jarvis (00:30:31):
And it's gotta understand what a, an assertion of fact is.

Leo Laporte (00:30:35):
I think it could do that.

Jeff Jarvis (00:30:37):
I don't know.

Leo Laporte (00:30:37):
I, I think that's just something that I've been No, I

Jeff Jarvis (00:30:39):
Haven't seen any fact after the last six years you'd think you'd see a whole bunch of fact checking programs and I haven't seen them.

Leo Laporte (00:30:47):
Well, that's a good point. That's

Jeff Jarvis (00:30:49):
A good point. Yeah. I mean, this is a different, you know, there's, the other way around is there's like two ways around how this could be used, I think in a more typical fashion. Is it, it's used could be used to a drafting tool, a tool that helps you explore knowledge, gives you stuff to draft with links that let you then read more. Like, it's like a super wiki, right? It's like a ultra wiki. You can't trust it necessarily. But if you have enough links you can go and read up and enhance it. But it could also do the reverse. What Jeff is just talking about too, is I would love toed something I wrote into a thing that looked for sources and said, actually, I found something that contradicts this conclusion. Even though it doesn't know what the conclusion is, it knows sets of words and can see if I can find similar sets of words, the negation of them, and give me that, or, or even look for stuff and find sat citations and say, this seems to support your contention.

 Then we're sort of, you know, answer, searching like, I make a contention and then I want the support for it. But, but there are ways in which I could help. I mean, I use Grammarly for my writing. I got to a certain point where I realized I don't la I lack the ability to self proofread well enough for the kinds of submissions I do. So I feed everything through Grammarly and it's got a little bit of AI logic in there. It's not anything as, as much as the large language models. But I could see a improved, ever improved version of Grammarly making my writing drafts become crispr and CRISPR without the involvement of an editor when I don't have the access to one.

Leo Laporte (00:32:09):

Jeff Jarvis (00:32:10):
But how much is writing a part of people's jobs? I guess that's the question. Is it a huge part of many people's jobs? I'm very biased. I

Leo Laporte (00:32:16):
Think there are a lot of jobs where writing is not the primary job, but it is a, is a, a corollary. You know, if you're an executive or even a middle manager, you spend a lot of time writing. Even police officers spend a lot of time writing. And all of those people, I think could benefit from some mediocre low level, you know, average quality writing that does a good job of synopsizing. And this is what chat g p t seems best at, by the way, synopsizing stuff. Cuz then it's not, then it's not asked to hallucinate. I don't, I shouldn't use the, I decided not to use the word hallucinate anymore because that's

Ant Pruitt (00:32:48):
Anthrop anthropomorph the, the key phrase.

Leo Laporte (00:32:50):
Yeah. But it's another, it's a human

Jeff Jarvis (00:32:52):
Ai people maybe

Leo Laporte (00:32:54):
Just you know, factual error.

Ant Pruitt (00:32:58):
Goodness, it's screwed up <laugh>. Yeah, but it's, it's, it's screwed up here.

Leo Laporte (00:33:02):
Didn't go. See, I think that's important to understand. It's just, as Stallman has said, as it didn't, it's just continuing with the auto correct. But as it does more of that, it's more likely that errors will creep in because it's not checking for those. So it's not on you, it's just what happens after a period of time. It, it degrades, you know, your likelihood of having factual errors are high, is higher. I have to say though, when it's summarizing a document, it it's not, doesn't have a chance to make errors. Because again, that sounds anthropomorphizing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it can't <laugh> it can't fail as much because it's got a, a primary text. It's working from, I don't know, it sure was wrong with wordle <laugh>.

Ant Pruitt (00:33:51):
I still say you, you probably needed to add a qualifier to your, to your query there to my bar for wordle, something like that. Why? Well, because it gave you six letter words. At least if you gave it a R said five letter words word,

Leo Laporte (00:34:06):
But I said five letter words.

Ant Pruitt (00:34:08):
But it gave you some six letter words,

Leo Laporte (00:34:09):
Right? Yeah. So that's the point.

Ant Pruitt (00:34:12):
Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. Well, it

Jeff Jarvis (00:34:14):
Doesn't count. We know that

Leo Laporte (00:34:16):

Jeff Jarvis (00:34:17):
Yeah, right. Math is not part of prediction, which is a funny problem. 2.22 plus two is usually four. But in some texts people say it's five. So it's possible sometimes you'd get an oh boy engine saying two plus two equals five. Cuz sometimes people use that as an example of something that's not true. I'm waiting. Yeah, I guess that's the, if you're, if you ingest a corpus of things that includes things that are not true as examples or intentionally false, then of course you're gonna get intentionally false answers from auto predictive random derived text or generated text.

Leo Laporte (00:34:47):
All right. I'm putting the you and o in quotes. And per your recommendation, I'm using the word wordle. What is a wordle answer where the second letter is you and the fifth letter is o Do you think that qualification will help it be a little, little better at this is Bard. 

Ant Pruitt (00:35:02):
Would not be three. Nope.

Leo Laporte (00:35:05):
Alert. Oh, alert. Nope.

Jeff Jarvis (00:35:07):
But there's a Google button. So that is what Google said in the New York Times today. That that would sound

Ant Pruitt (00:35:12):
That's what they want you to do.

Jeff Jarvis (00:35:13):
Think that's what they sound

Leo Laporte (00:35:14):
Is Googling it. Let's see.

Jeff Jarvis (00:35:15):
Here's the Google. Yeah, Bri, Brian X Chen did a piece of the New York Times that's out just today where he tried to see if he could use Bard and I think it was just, was it Bard and Chat? G p t maybe a later version of it as a virtual assistant, even though it can't book stuff for you. He said like, I wanna go to Taipei and have a data recover and then do some business meetings. So he tried some scenarios and it was interesting just to see at this point what kinds of results you could get from a generalized chat one. But one of them was Google said, well, it, it gives you a Google Lit link. So even if it doesn't give you enough information, you just click that and that'll get you more information.

Leo Laporte (00:35:49):
Catch all right there?

Jeff Jarvis (00:35:50):
Yeah. We're not quite ready. There are 10. Everybody I can,

Leo Laporte (00:35:54):
There are 10, five letter words with you and Oh, audio curio, gumbo, Guo, Gusto, jumbo, ju Huno, outdo, outgo and Turbo. But a human figured that one out. Google is saying, I did my job here. Yeah. With Bard. Yeah. That was the Google result. I got you the right spot. Yeah. <laugh> Guo by the way was the right answer. 

Jeff Jarvis (00:36:16):

Leo Laporte (00:36:17):
Guo. Bat Guano. Wasn't that the, like in Horseman BoJack or something? Bojack Horseman bat. It's

Jeff Jarvis (00:36:25):
In BoJack

Leo Laporte (00:36:25):
Horseman. Isn't that character?

Jeff Jarvis (00:36:26):
It's in Dr. Strangelove, Dr. Bat. That's strange. Guo. Look, Dr. Look, Sergeant Bat Guo or whatever. That's right. It says on his

Leo Laporte (00:36:35):
That. Really? If that really is your name,

Jeff Jarvis (00:36:37):
It's your name. That's Tolio. I don't wanna I don't wanna

Leo Laporte (00:36:42):
Change the

Jeff Jarvis (00:36:42):
Subject of course here. Please. Well, I'm not doing that. I'm just trying to augment here. Chat. G P t released a whole bunch of plugins. That

Leo Laporte (00:36:51):
Actually is quite interesting. Huh?

Jeff Jarvis (00:36:52):
It is. Wolfrem Steve Wolf Fromm wrote about it, about how they're using it. Yep. I can't figure out how some of the others are using it. I wonder about it as a, as an,

Leo Laporte (00:37:01):
I'll give examples and I don't yet have access, but there are quite a few plugins. Open tables one. So you could then say to chat, G p t oh make me a reservation and it could do that. Expedia, same

Jeff Jarvis (00:37:15):
Thing. On what basis does it do that? That's what I'm trying to understand.

Leo Laporte (00:37:18):
Well, it interacts

Jeff Jarvis (00:37:19):
Doesn't know anything.

Leo Laporte (00:37:20):
Yeah. But it can interact with, you know, so it's interesting. For instance, I've seen a lot of people say, and I guess I'm noticing it cause I'm about to go on vacation that it uses chat g p t to plan. Like I can do. Let me do one real quickly, just to give you an example. Oh, I

Jeff Jarvis (00:37:35):

Leo Laporte (00:37:36):
Yeah. So plan a day Trip to Rome for may let's see April 22nd, nine A to five P with stop for lunch. And then it would be smart enough. Actually, this is pretty good <laugh> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And, and it, it, it stopped. It has stopped for lunch. And it would be smart enough perhaps to integrate with Open Table for that. This is, you know what, let me cut and paste this cuz I wanna put this in my itinerary. Yeah, there you go. 9:00 AM Start your day by visiting the Coliseum. One of the most iconic landmarks in Rome. You could buy tickets online in advance to avoid long cues. Again, if it were connected through a plugin, it could do that. Right. 11:00 AM after visiting the coliseums, he gave me two hours. That's Ray walk to the nearby Roman foreman. Palatine Hin Ill, these ancient ruins offer a glimpse in the city's rich history and architecture. One o'clock a break for lunch at a traditional traia or pizzeria. Some popular options near the Coliseum. Aist Pizzeria. Luk. I have no idea if these are real [inaudible] after lunch. Head to the Vatican City vet.

Jeff Jarvis (00:38:57):
That's not, that's not quarantine, but it's not too, too far

Leo Laporte (00:39:00):
Off. Quran. The quarantine restaurant. Let's just see there is

Jeff Jarvis (00:39:06):
The 40th.

Leo Laporte (00:39:07):
Such a thing. I

Jeff Jarvis (00:39:07):
Think it's the 40th something la

Leo Laporte (00:39:10):
No, there is actually, there is Noia, but there is a taverna day

Jeff Jarvis (00:39:16):
That's something in the 40th. The 40th

Leo Laporte (00:39:19):
Taverna. Yeah. So it may that is not a real restaurant.

Jeff Jarvis (00:39:22):

Leo Laporte (00:39:23):
So it made that up. Well, it

Jeff Jarvis (00:39:24):
Would be hard, but that means that you can't say that it's not a good restaurant.

Leo Laporte (00:39:28):
<Laugh>. Well mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah. I guess that's very long. Just see if the,

Jeff Jarvis (00:39:31):
So, so the, the Wolf mal in chat, g p t puts a query to Wolf from Alpha. Now that is an interesting connection. Cause we know Wolf from Alpha has the

Leo Laporte (00:39:42):
Yeah. Cuz it's got the math.

Jeff Jarvis (00:39:43):
It's so hard to, so that's whole idea. Hard to compose queries for Wolf from Alpha Alpha. Right. I find it. Yeah. I would love, that's actually great. Use an easier tool to compose queries for a harder tool that's hard to compose queries. But it's a very strange Right. But it work. If it works, then great.

Leo Laporte (00:39:58):
Another great one is, it's in the rundown is Zapier. Because Zapier can be used to create now further scripts. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I think that there's a lot of Oh, interesting. Yeah. There's a lot of potential with these plugins.

Jeff Jarvis (00:40:11):
Well there's, there seems like there's a lot of frustration with tools that we're promised more of. So there's some excitement about this because it seems, it gives the veneer of working really well. So 10 years into Siri and you know, Google Assistant and some other tools, some are better than others, but they're, they're dissatisfying in various ways. And so being able to go to a tool that pretends to give you doesn't know it's pretending something that seems plausible, I think has a like an endorphin response. You're like, ah, it gave me an answer. It understood what I meant. It wasn't saying like, ah, you mean fig Newton's or whatever the Newton joke was. Fig egg freckles,

Leo Laporte (00:40:47):

Jeff Jarvis (00:40:48):
That was the Newton joke.

Leo Laporte (00:40:49):
Right. Let us take a break then we'll talk about the internet archive. Did we talk about that last week? I can't remember. I don't think we did. They lost they lost their court case.

Jeff Jarvis (00:40:59):
I have thoughts.

Leo Laporte (00:41:00):

Jeff Jarvis (00:41:02):

Leo Laporte (00:41:03):
You know, you have the same problem. I have aunt, which is, I cannot remember. We have so many different shows. We, I know we talked about it on Twitter. Oh,

Jeff Jarvis (00:41:11):
I think we talked about was going to cause

Leo Laporte (00:41:14):
Cross pollinates, <laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (00:41:17):
Internet archive.

Leo Laporte (00:41:18):
Too many shows. No, the the yeah, the judgment came out Friday. So we talked about, we talked about the fact that it was, we now have a result. The judges. Oh, now we had the result. It's okay. We will also, that's talk about a pioneer of the technology revolution has passed this past week. Yeah. Two of them and yes, two of them. And a TikTok ban. Where does it stand these days? And the secret list of Twitter VIPs. None of which. None. None. Which does not include any of us. None of us. None of us. None of us. Cat turd two v i p. But he balanced that with a ooc. Anyway, we'll talk about that. Lots more to come. It's so nice to have you Mr. Glenn Fleischman Thank you very much. You know what I was gonna do before the show today is look up your appearance on Jeopardy, your appearances on jeopardy and play one of them. Are they, are they are online anywhere?

Jeff Jarvis (00:42:22):
Technically no. But they may be findable, <laugh>, so many pictures. Entertainment. 

Leo Laporte (00:42:28):
I know they would take it down.

Jeff Jarvis (00:42:32):
They're pretty good. They've been, they've been doing more. I watched an episode of Jeopardy the Night. We started watching it more regular again recently, where this person started and you thought, wow, this, she's doing terribly. She is answering wrong. She's going into the negative. And then she staged to come back. I've never seen before and, and wound up winning the episode. Then she lost unfortunately on the next, because she, she missed a, a daily double answer. But it's still an exciting show. It's funny.

Leo Laporte (00:42:56):
I watch it every every night I watch two episodes as I row here is Glen, what do you think of the current host with $15,199? Look at that. And was that the right answer in final Jeopardy?

Jeff Jarvis (00:43:10):
The correct answer? Yeah. Yeah. The answer. The question was, or the clue was something about and I didn't know the answer. This was a inductive reasoning. Right. The clue was something about this city in eastern Germany changed its name or had a different name between like 1955 and 1989. And I'm like, it's not Stalin. There was Stalingrad, it's not linen, there was Linero. I'm like, it has to be Karl Mars. And it was Karl Marsat, which is wow. The City of a Hennis is the name that it had before and after that. But, so I just wrote, who is Carl Marks? And they're like, yep, that's it. And you must

Leo Laporte (00:43:43):
Have, you must tricky. You actually put a question mark after it, which is great. <Laugh>, you're not required to do that. But okay. That's

Jeff Jarvis (00:43:50):
Who is Carl Marks.

Leo Laporte (00:43:51):
Am I right? Am I wrong? 

Jeff Jarvis (00:43:54):
It's not Lennon, it's not, it's that

Leo Laporte (00:43:56):
Era. In my experience watching Jeopardy that that is often the skill because they always throw in, often throw in little clues in the way they phrase the question and stuff. So the skill of doing a little reasoning around it, even if you don't know exactly the answer is often enough to get you the answer. I find I

Jeff Jarvis (00:44:14):
I'd say the last several years, the big change in the game is betting strategy, is people have gone all in in the last seven years and really understanding how to be you know, a pro, not everyone, but the people who really win and win big know when to bet and how much to bet and when to not, not answering when when you don't know the answer is a huge thing. But betting and strategically getting the daily doubles, that's that's how you're seeing some of these, you know, seven, eight day winners. People winning hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Leo Laporte (00:44:42):
Mm. Yeah. And I also noticed thanks to Madam Mario that people no longer start at the top and go there down the category. He was, he really, he fluted tradition. People were very upset that he would start with I'll take Weisenheimer for a thousand. Alex. And, and you can't, they haven't. This is, that's the, and it turns out you can. In fact, it's a brilliant strategy cuz double jeopardies are often in the middle and yeah. Get 'em off the board if you don't know the answer. Yeah. 

Jeff Jarvis (00:45:16):
It's changed the way of the game. I don't think I could play. It's a faster and more numeric gameplay than I think it used to be. But I think they're pulling in when they switch to all internet auditioning, I think they're pulling in wonkier people than they used to. Yes. who they shirt

Leo Laporte (00:45:30):

Jeff Jarvis (00:45:32):
<Laugh>. I

Leo Laporte (00:45:32):
Just, I have to say, well, look at

Jeff Jarvis (00:45:34):

Leo Laporte (00:45:34):
Look at me. I'm look at the, no, I'm looking at the picture of you playing and thinking. You know, that's a pretty good looking bunch there. Nowadays some pretty strange looking people in there. There's some weirdos. You even put on a neck type. Good.

Jeff Jarvis (00:45:48):
The weirdos should be playing jeopardy. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:45:49):
People are riding the unicycles in Santa Rosa ex. Yeah, exactly. <Laugh> Exactly.

Jeff Jarvis (00:45:56):
Playing hockey sack

Leo Laporte (00:45:59):
<Laugh>. Do you play hockey sack? Tell the truth.

Jeff Jarvis (00:46:03):
No, no. I'm not one of those kinds of cites.

Leo Laporte (00:46:05):
You're you're not that guy. Our show today, I'm very happy to say, brought to you. Bye. C d w to you and Hewlett Packard Enterprise. H p e GreenLake, orchestrated by the experts at C D W, the helpful people at C D W. Understand your organization needs a needs simple management over its big data. We know that more than never now, right? With some needed to keep their workloads on prem due to organizational or regulatory requirements. Maybe it could be a little challenging to organize and optimize your data. That's where C D W can help your organization. By consolidating and managing all your data in one flexible, unified experience with the H P e GreenLake Edge to Cloud platform. The experience you get with HPE GreenLake is unique cuz no matter where your data or applications live, you can free up energy and resources with automated processes and streamlined management.

I mean, <laugh> and couldn't use some streamlining these days. Right. Not only that, HPE GreenLake creates a seamless cloud experience among multiple data environments thanks to the ASA service model that meets your remote workforce where they live at the edge. And with unrivaled scalability, you'll see an instant increase in capacity, allowing for greater flexibility and accelerated business growth so your team can tackle bigger priorities. Like, I don't know, innovation maybe when you need to get more outta your technology. H P E makes data transformation possible. C D W makes it powerful. Learn slash h p e. We thanks c d CDW and HPE for supporting our show. Cdw.Com/H p e. So it was a loss in court for the internet archive. We had Cory Doctoral briefly on twi on Sunday, and he was pretty head up about all this <laugh> really?

He has said as many of served Corey. Yeah, Corey just a little bit. He has said, as many have observed that the publishers are just like libraries to go away. But of course libraries predate publishing. They, Cory pointed out they literally predate books <laugh>. So I guess the Library of Alexandria is mostly papyrus. So there's not much they can do about it. But this was for these four book publishers. A great opportunity for them to at least take a chink out of the libraries hase versus internet archive. New York Federal Court judge heard the arguments on Monday of last week. By Friday of last week, judge John g Kettle decided that the internet archive had done nothing more than create derivative works. And so would've needed authorization from the book's, copyright holders, the publishers, before lending them out through its National Emergency Library program. So round one to the publishers. But of course the internet archive will appeal. This one's going all the way to the Supreme Court. I I have no doubt about it. In the internet

Jeff Jarvis (00:49:24):
Archive. Oh, I don't think so at all. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:49:26):
You don't think so at all? Why not? I

Jeff Jarvis (00:49:28):
Think it's not extremely cut and dried. And I think the judge's decision was actually correct. As much as I love and respect the internet archive they have no foot on which to stand with this. But they wanted to turn it into a broad, I mean, look, nobody should defend large publishers and their behavior in the marketplace or how they treat authors or how they treat libraries. This is the problem. Like, they're not solitary characters, right? Where you're like, yay, the publishers are great.

Leo Laporte (00:49:56):
Publishers win. Woo

Jeff Jarvis (00:49:58):
Yay. It's like we know, you know, they, they have their own set of problems and issues and they've been the e the way in which they allow public libraries to lend eBooks is kind of ridiculous. I mean, there has to be some kind of fair balance and they don't wanna strike it. But the internet archive fluted well established law in doing what they did, and there's no basis on which they did what they did and the judge said it. Now, what was, what they pushed and what a lot of their advocates pushed all during the case was that publishers are gonna use this to erode other rights like Google Books, happy trusts, abilities one in court to scan and offer snippet views and maintain private databases like libraries. The right of the first lending, right? Or the, the first I'm sorry, what's that called?

It's the, the, when the right when in the United States, when you purchase a work, a purchase an item, you can do whatever you want with it once you own it. If you have physical sale book, you can for sale, sell it for sale, destroy it. First sale. Yeah. Yeah. That doctrine, the judge said, no, that doctrine is totally intact. This doesn't imply the fair use, right. That the Google Books and Happy Trust lawsuit established. He, he didn't waive it away, but he explained how previous decisions that enlarged and code of fair use and enlarged and codified, the first sale doctrine all stood in place in how the internet archives specific attempts fell outside it and failed to justify even what they're maintaining. So I think it was a weak suit because they were

Leo Laporte (00:51:20):
Running, loading more book copies

Jeff Jarvis (00:51:21):
Than they had Glen. Well, no, it's because there's no established rate to convert an electronic copy of a physical copy into an electronic copy and loan it. That was one, that's their digital lending right. Issue, which mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, which does not have a basis in the law. So Congress could extend the law to allow that. They would, could lobby for that and make that happen. It might be a good thing to do, depending on a lot of factors. And they do not have the right to loan unlimited copies during when they established that emergency during the pandemic. Were those social goods? Yes. Do I love the internet archive? Yes. Do I think it's legal? And within the regulatory structure? No. And I don't think the judge was, was wrong. I, I, I think allowing publishers to engage in predatory practices with libraries instead of having you know, a lot of industries in the music recording industry, there are a lot of statutory rights that force things like, you know, any band Leo, you could start the, you know, a tribute band and, and record any song you want as a cover that's statutorily protected.

And there's a an amount of money you have to pay. The original pub, the person who wrote the music wrote the, the song and the lyrics and, and music. But there's no similar rights for libraries. So you could argue, and, you know, in Europe, if you bar, if you libraries in Europe have to pay specific fees that go to authors for subsequent lending rights, and it, it kind of obviates this whole issue.

Leo Laporte (00:52:40):
So what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, what I understand the internet archive did, and I agree with you, in fact, we had Steven Levy and Alex Cantor whiz on Twitter a couple of weeks ago, and they argued, as you did that the internet at archive overstepped its authority, what the internet archive does or did. They would be either given books old worn out books from libraries or by books. I think in the most cases it was, they were given books by libraries, physical copies which they could have as a regular library would lend out. But instead, they decided to scan those. And at least initially what they did is they lend 'em out just as libraries lend out sanctioned eBooks, one book per reader. Other words, they wouldn't have 14 copies of the same digital book.

Now, there was the emergency actor in Covid where they said, we're not gonna have those limits. I think that's what they did. That's what they got in trouble for. Right, right. But I do believe that the publishers also, and the judge agreed, did not want them to scan physical books and then lend those out. Those were considered correct derivative works much like a, a cover band would be a derivative work and was not allowed. The problem is that is a method that is in response to the fact that major publishers don't actually offer digital books for purchase to libraries. They have

Jeff Jarvis (00:54:08):
Some, many of them restrict

Leo Laporte (00:54:09):
It. They have very high licensing fees and they rent them. It's very restrictive. So there is no way to get digital books in the same way you get print books for libraries. That's one. The publishers haven't given them a means to do that. There's also the issue of book banning and censorship, and I think there's a public interest in not only preserving these physical books by digitizing them, but also lending them mountain cases where they're banned in jurisdictions. And lending them out electronically means that somebody who can't read a book in some kid that can't read a book in Florida can borrow it from the internet archive. And I think there's a societal mandate to allow that. Okay. I understand. The publishers don't like it. Corey's point is the publishers aren't gonna, they're not losing any money with these lendings anymore than, you know, they've always claimed that libraries cost authors and publishers money. And, and, and Corey I think is pretty adamant that that's not the case. You disagree?

Jeff Jarvis (00:55:10):
Well, the, I don't think libraries don't cost authors money, but the Digital Ren lending rate surely did because even before the, their emergency period that they declared the entered archive didn't put strong protection on the books. So they were loaning. And, and this is a whole issue at D r DRM in books, but alone versus a purchase. When I purchase something, I find d r m offensive because I feel like I've bought it and often it in a way that should allow me to use it, you know, and so on the, on the movie side internet or the, what's it called movies everywhere. What's the system called that allows you Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:55:44):
Movies every, everywhere. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (00:55:46):
Yeah. I mean, that system actually broke some of the D r M issues by allowing you to use movies you purchased on a platform. You could link them across all your devices and platforms. So that sort of diffused some of that issue, which you've been building for a long time. It gave you more legitimate ability to work within a D D R M system. I think there's a lot of, ill use of D R M, and I know Corey has written about that for decades, and I don't think he's wrong about a lot of it, but what, when you borrow or loan something, what it's meant to be a fixed period of time, I think it's acceptable to have d r m be one of the things that controls lending and the internet archives d r m controls on, lend on its digital lending rate. Were not strong. And then to allow an unlimited borrowing of any number of copies of books during the period, the self-declared emergency period Right. Also is a taking. Right. And so from an intellectual property standpoint, does this hurt? I mean, does it hurt authors when people can go to the internet archive and get an unlimited number of books for an extended period of time? And in some cases, if they do, a very simple thing can retain that book forever? I think it's pretty clear. It does. The

Leo Laporte (00:56:46):

Jeff Jarvis (00:56:46):
Could have case, not a generalized

Leo Laporte (00:56:47):
Question, and I think maybe should have said, okay, that emergency's lending thing that was not okay. But I really did want the judge to uphold the first sale doctrine and say, which he did,

Jeff Jarvis (00:57:00):
He did for,

Leo Laporte (00:57:00):
But you can't digitize it. I Oh, for physical only. You can, you can. So if I bought a book, I can't scan it.

Jeff Jarvis (00:57:07):
You, you can scan it for personal use, you can possess it, you can do any transfer transformation act you want in the privacy of your home and among a household as you come with a lot of, like it makes sense. Hey, speak. You know, speaking of Craig Newman, right? I was in the Newman v or the replay TV lawsuit that was Newman V and I was one of the non-named co-plaintiffs of that lawsuit when a lot of like 29 different studios were trying to prevent fast forwarding of ads as something because replay t v enabled it, right? And yeah, I was, yep. It was E F f pursued model litigants or model plaintiffs and or, and I was one of them. So we entered that lawsuit and it was settled.

So we didn't get a definitive answer, but it's the same principle as, you know, can you fast forward in the privacy of your home while a cable company, or sorry, a a studio executive said, well, there might be acceptable pausing for using the bathroom. Like you're, but you're obliged to watch the ads, right? It's maybe you can go take a break. It's the same kind of thing here where it's in the privacy of your home. If you wanna scan a book or transform a book, that's fine. And Google and other organizations like that, libraries A Hockey Trust, which is a kind of an association that represents hundreds and hundreds of, of academic libraries and institutional libraries. It's invaluable to my research. Yeah. In,

Leo Laporte (00:58:23):
Well, fact, the court scan upheld That is fair use. Yeah. 

Jeff Jarvis (00:58:27):
Yeah, exactly. Because

Leo Laporte (00:58:28):
The machine was reading it. Not a human.

Jeff Jarvis (00:58:31):
Exactly. You're not making it all. It doesn't lessen the value. It doesn't, it's not a taking, I mean, let

Leo Laporte (00:58:35):
Me read what the, let me read what the EF F says. Four publishers sued the archive alleging that this controlled digital lending violates their copyrights has Harper Collins, Wiley, and Penguin Random House claims CDL has cost their companies millions of dollars and is a threat to their business. This is the e f writing. They are wrong. Libraries have paid publishers billions of dollars for the books in their print collections and are investing enormous resources in digitization in order to preserve those texts. L helps ensure the public can make full use of the books the libraries have bought and paid for. This activity is fundamentally the same as traditional library lending and poses no new harm to authors or the publishing industry. Libraries have never been required to get permissions or pay extra fees to lend books. And as a practical matter, the data so shows that the cdl, the data shows that the CDL has not and will not harm the bump publisher's bottom line, I agree with you. There's this gray area over the uncontrolled lending, but I don't understand why it's any different for the, a library, whether it's a Boston public library, which does this or the internet archive to scan a physical copy and lend that out. One book per digital copy, one lender, one reader per digital copy. That seems to me the same thing. That seems to be very fair if, if you, if you maintain that limitation, I don't think Grant agrees. It,

Jeff Jarvis (01:00:01):
I, I don't agree, because I think you have to have strong D R M and the internet archive didn't have it. And I think you have to. I also think it's not established in law. So should there be such a Right, I actually think there should e even further, I think the European model is what we should be adopting, which is that libraries should have, should be paying, I'm not trying to take money out of library's budgets, but instead of having this broken e-book model where publishers charge ridiculous amounts and limit the lending to like 29 times ever for an e-book, things like that, libraries should instead be using the licensing model. The European market involves, which requires payments every time books are lent out, and that they go to authors and publishers. And that allows the removal of a whole overlay. It means that there's fair payment. But it doesn't involve this

Leo Laporte (01:00:48):
Completely undermines my

Jeff Jarvis (01:00:50):
Pressure by publishers.

Leo Laporte (01:00:50):
They completely undermines No,

Jeff Jarvis (01:00:52):
No, because libraries are paying these fees. They're paying these fees in terms of e-book lending right now, which is

Leo Laporte (01:00:57):
Library system. And, and the whole, the whole point here is system. And this is Corey is, is always arguing this, that somehow, because something's digital doesn't change the fundamental copyright issue. But publishers who hate the whole idea of libraries would love to say as you are, oh, now that it's digital, we have to have D R M, we have to have licensing, we have to have fees. I completely disagree. The EF f also disagrees. They say copyright law does not prevent that lawful fair use. Indeed, it supports it. Libraries are simply striving to serve their patrons effectively and efficiently. Lending books one at a time, just as they've done for centuries. The fact that it's digital versus print sh should make no difference. Now, I do agree with you. I you're probably right. This won't make it the Supreme Court, even though I'm sure internet archive will appeal it all the way. I'll doubt they'll get certi because, you know, copyright holders have a, I think undue, disproportionate influence in this society. But yes, no, this is, yeah, I wanna, this undermines how libraries work fundamentally. And it's

Jeff Jarvis (01:02:08):
Wrong. I, I don't think it undermines it at all because it puts us back into the status quo anti, in which libraries are doing exactly what they've been doing. I think it reaffirms the publisher's position, which I think is predatory that I don't. So what I would prefer is, instead of the internet archive attempting to stake out an untenable position, which they did, which the law doesn't support that they should be working to get reform. I mean, the, the endless extension of the,

Leo Laporte (01:02:31):
Well, there is a dis disagreement over whether the law supports it or not. So that's, so lemme

Jeff Jarvis (01:02:35):
Ask you a hypothetical. Let me ask you a question. Cause I, I looked up the library, the, the internet archive. They said they need some books. And I was looking up for this purpose. Yeah. I was looking up to see if I had data to give to them and they didn't need my books. A library has to pays a, I think, full retail for physical book. Right? Is there anything in first sale? It prevents me from giving the library a copy of a book so they don't have to pay for it, and they can then lend that out. Right? No, not at all. Right. That's right. So then library, that's the, that's the other principle of work here, right? Is is that number one. Number two, I think that what needs to get challenged is that when I buy an audible book, which I do a lot, I can't give it to someone else. Even with PR

Leo Laporte (01:03:17):
Yang, this is the publishers love the idea that, oh,

Jeff Jarvis (01:03:20):
I can't Kindle

Leo Laporte (01:03:21):
Book else got, now that it's digital, we can, we can re rere retrade the agreement.

Jeff Jarvis (01:03:26):
They've, they've rewritten for a sale doctrine Yes. In these new areas because

Leo Laporte (01:03:30):
They hate for a sale doctor. They wanna charge

Jeff Jarvis (01:03:32):
For every, they should be a transfer copy of the

Leo Laporte (01:03:33):

Jeff Jarvis (01:03:33):
Yes, there should be. Yeah. You should, should be able to transfer. If I could transfer my e-book ownership to someone else, I would feel very differently about publishers. And I can't, I, I'll tell you back when, do you remember when iTunes was introduced? I was interviewing Phil s Schiller. This is what, 2005 or four. And this is when everything else was, you had to buy. It was all this protection and downloads a very complicated music system. And Phil said to me unlike these other systems, when you buy a song from Apple, you own it. And I said, oh, can I sell it to somebody else? And he said no. I'm like, well, then I don't own it. Right? I'm licensing it. It's a license. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing. If I buy an ebook, I'm not really buying it. It's a license.

And I always, always, I've always agreed with Corey on that. The same token, if I buy a physical book, am I buying the rights to reproduce it electronically or, or in a form I'm not under the current law. Should I be able to probably, right. Congress should, should, should copyright be endless? Should libraries be subject to the same strictures that individual purchases are? There's a lot of change that should happen. And I don't think this was the mechanism that allows that. I think it actually, it did reaffirm publishers' positions, but it also means that we really have to go to legislature and get changes made. Is it possible? I don't know if it is, but I think that's the route that would actually produce a lasting and change without requiring lawsuit after lawsuit.

Leo Laporte (01:04:51):
All right, let's take a little break. When we come back, there's more to talk about. That's a great subject. You by the way, are in the same campus. Steven Levy and Alex Kreitz, all three of you authors. Corey's an author. Jeff, you're an author. I have no books in this hunt. But you know, I think libraries are one of

Jeff Jarvis (01:05:10):
The most, I don't any book I sell.

Leo Laporte (01:05:11):
Yeah. Good for you. Good. Awesome. Your publisher might you know, and Corey, actually Corey has a I'm the publisher, <laugh>, that is, oh, there you go. Corey has a new Kickstarter by the way. And I love the, the title of the Kickstarter red Team Blues, another audio book that Amazon won't sell <laugh>. And, and his point is, because he will not put d r m on his audiobooks Amazon, i, i e Audible will never carry his auto. And I said, but really? Isn't that a case of you not letting them carry it <laugh>? He said, no, because they insist on a D R M. Okay. He's the license holder. He's the publisher in this case. He's not letting them <laugh>. Okay, Corey. But no, his point is well taken. And it is the longest URL I've ever seen on a Kickstarter.

 But you know what, easiest thing to do, go to, search for Red Team Blues. Looks like a really great book. This is Corey's bid to own a James Bond like series. His hero in the book is a certified public accountant. And Marty Hench knows where Silicon Valley's bodies are buried. He's a hard charging forensic accountant, a gentleman of a certain age who spent the past 40 years unwinding every finance scam in Silicon Valley. If we can just make him a little younger and sexier, Corey, I think we could have movie rights sold. I'm just saying, I'm just saying. I see maybe one of the Hemsworth brothers. I'm just saying, can we make him a little younger Red Team Blues on Kickstarter. We will be back in a moment. Hey everybody. Leo Laport here. I am the founder and one of the hosts at the twit Podcast Network.

I wanna talk to you a little bit about what we do here at twit because I think it's unique, and I think for anybody who is bringing a product or a service to a tech audience, you need to know about what we do Here at twit, we've built an amazing audience of engaged, intelligent, affluent listeners who listen to us and trust us when we recommend a product. Our mission statement is twit, is to build a highly engaged community of tech enthusiasts. Well, already you should be, your ears should be perking up at that because highly engaged is good for you. Tech enthusiasts, if that's who you're looking for, this is the place we do it by offering him the knowledge they need to understand and use technology in today's world. And I hear from our audience all the time. Part of that knowledge comes from our advertisers.

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And honestly, isn't that why you're buying advertising? You get a lot with Twit. We have a very full service attitude. We almost think of it as kind of artisanal advertising, boutique advertising. You'll get a full service continuity team, people who are on the phone with you, who are in touch with you, who support you from, with everything from copywriting to graphic design. So you are not alone in this. We embed our ads into the shows. They're not, they're not added later. They're part of the shows. In fact, often they're such a part of our shows that our other hosts will chime in on the ads saying, yeah, I love that. Or just the other day, <laugh>, one of our hosts said, man, I really gotta buy that <laugh>. That's an additional benefit to you because you're hearing people, our audience trusts saying, yeah, that sounds great.

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It wasn't the, at least millions, if not billions. You know, for a variety of reasons that they are trying really hard to keep people safe on TikTok. But I don't think lawmakers or state governments really care about the hashtag. No, they don't. Tiktok line 59, I put in one thing here from TikTok, ladies and gentlemen, a random, oh, I, I think I know which stupid is this the wifi moment? Yeah. Yeah. This is, no, actually it's not. No, this is different. This is, that was another random stupid moment. Let's, let's see. That was hilarious. That was the one where a member of Congress asked, chew the CEO of TikTok, do you attach to my wifi? And he said, well, yeah. When your apps at home, you're, can you see my wifi? Yeah. That's how it works. <Laugh>. That's Well, the rest work my case, your Honor. Okay, here's another one. Listen. It's a series of tubes. It's a bunch of tubes. And you have to, has Mr. The TikTok into the tube. Mr. Carter from Georgia. Ladies and gentlemen. Oh, my sound is turned off. I always do that. Hold on a second. I gotta do this right. Gotta hear every juicy adverb coming out of this member of Congress. Here. Press the button. Do the thing. Here we go.

Speaker 4 (01:13:56):
I wanna talk specifically. Can you tell me right now, can you say with a hundred percent certainty that TikTok has not used the phone's camera to determine whether the content that elicits a pupil dilation should be amplified by the algorithm? Can you tell me that we do not collect body, face or voice data to identify our users?

Leo Laporte (01:14:20):
They don't need to. They just say, how long do you watch it? How long, how long you on the screen? I think how long You like this bikini rich content dilation. More thirst traps.

Speaker 4 (01:14:31):
We do the, the the only. Oh, you, you don't the No, the only face data that you'll get that we collect is when you use the filters to have sunglasses on your face. We need to know where your eyes are. Why do you need to know where the eyes are if you're not, see, they're dilated and, and that data is stored on your local device. Oh

Leo Laporte (01:14:47):
My God.

Speaker 4 (01:14:48):
Use it for facial

Leo Laporte (01:14:49):

Speaker 4 (01:14:51):
Buddy face or voice data to identify our users. I find that hard to believe.

Leo Laporte (01:14:57):
Well, there you go. I find, find and cause I find that hard to believe, hard to believe. Come off as a bit racist. A time or two as well. But were they was as well. Really? Well, I mean, it, it a couple times. I, cuz I've bouncing in out of it and it sort of pissed me off. It was making me so angry. I turned it off. They kept sort of referring to him as if he's Chinese. Yeah, he's from Singapore. Yeah. Yeah. And he went to Har and I wanna say at one point he was like, Hey sir, I'm Singaporean and I wanna say he said that at least once. Well, you look like you're Chinese. I was like, wow. Well, I think that you could say coital silver <laugh>. So too much what coital? Silver. Silver. Yes. That's it's great for the health. Apparently this is not a recommendation. It's one of these right wing things that people do. They <laugh>, they drink colloidal silver. Some people have turned blue. Haven't you seen the pictures of people? Oh, sorry, it's not, I thought you said Got it. I had a whole different picture. Cause I thought you said coital silver and that's another No, no, not coital. Silver. Very co silver anti. I got you Chris Silver. You did good. Poor sir. Okay. <laugh>.

Good third parts of the country know more than others about these. I I mean, in some ways you could say that the whole TikTok thing is racist cuz it's about, it's, it's, if it weren't Chinese, right, I mean it xenophobic at the least. It's at least xenophobic. Phobic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It could have had snap and ins. Instagram and TikTok all up there. Should have live should have. And the, the only thing I heard sensible coming from some of the members of Congress was we need a law, a privacy law. Well, and whose job is that? Yeah. So do it. Go do it. Yeah. I, you know, a lot of what they were asking of us Chu was to do things that they're not asking Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and all the others. And I think his point was, well, we, yeah, we could do that, but would put us a huge competitive disadvantage.

And I think this really underscores the fact that this is, this is what Facebook wants. This is exactly, this is, I wouldn't be surprised at all if, you know, mark Zuckerberg weren't whis whispering into these members of Congress ears, Hey, you know, you should really do some of that TikTok. They're really eating our lunch. Twitter's source code has been hanging around in public for months, leaked online. Elon Musk has gone to GitHub saying, who did that? Probably I'm guessing a disgruntled former employer. Twitter was able to get the social code pulled off GitHub on Friday with a copyright infringement notice. It's unclear how long, according to the New York Times Deloitte code had been online, but it appears to have been public for at least several months, which just shows you not long enough for someone to fix it. <Laugh> Twitter asked the US District Court for the Northern District, California to order GitHub to identify the person who shared the code and everybody who downloaded it. Elon's coming to your house, kids,

Ant Pruitt (01:18:05):
Come on over, let's have a beer.

Leo Laporte (01:18:11):
But that's it. One concern of course is code includes security vulnerabilities that could give hackers or other motivated partners the means to extract user data or tech down take down the site. Actually, I think, I don't think there's anything worse. You could Oh yeah. I don't think there's anything worse you could do to Twitter with their source code done with themselves. They've self-imposed. And in fact, I think the arm Gideon is probably coming on Saturday when Oh really? Well, April 1st Elon has said that we are gonna start removing blue checks from everybody who doesn't pay Right. While April

Ant Pruitt (01:18:48):
Fools thing.

Leo Laporte (01:18:49):
Yeah. And if you don't have a blue check, you won't ever be shown in the four you column. You won't be able to participate in polls. And it's, he's been kind of implying that if you have the blue check, your pro, your posts will be boosted. So, honestly, I mean, I don't know who's still on Twitter. Apparently quite a few people. But isn't this gonna make it just be unusable? Maybe not. People seem to really not wanna leave Twitter. They really don't wanna leave

Ant Pruitt (01:19:23):
Twitter. It's, it's a broadcast platform for some of

Leo Laporte (01:19:26):
Us. Yeah, but if you don't have a blue check, so you are gonna pay 'em an eight bucks. Eight.

Ant Pruitt (01:19:31):
No, I'm not paying them squad.

Leo Laporte (01:19:32):
But so you won't won't be a very good tried. It won't be as good of, if

Ant Pruitt (01:19:37):
Don't see it's being useful for me, then nah, I'll, I'll dump it. Just

Leo Laporte (01:19:40):
Your impressions are gonna go down, down, I would think

Ant Pruitt (01:19:43):
Platform. Cuz it, every, there's a bunch of things out there. There's Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Vero, YouTube, whatever you want. And you try 'em out. And if you don't feel like they're working for you, you just leave. And Twitter at the moment still works for me. And if it stops working for me, I won't put any more effort into it the way, because I know that that game has been fixed. I do

Leo Laporte (01:20:05):
Have to point out that yes, Elon Musk does have a blue check, but apparently

Ant Pruitt (01:20:12):
It's his legacy. It may or may not be

Leo Laporte (01:20:14):
Notable. So,

Jeff Jarvis (01:20:15):
Oh man, he's too cheap to pay

Leo Laporte (01:20:17):
Himself. He's not even paying the eight bucks himself. Kids <laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (01:20:22):
Gotta sell some more house plants from the offices to afford that. Can

Leo Laporte (01:20:25):
You believe that?

Ant Pruitt (01:20:27):
That's hilarious.

Leo Laporte (01:20:28):
This is a legacy verified account. It may or may not be notable, by the way. I just wanna point out I have a better blue check than Elon does because my blue check says, time did. This account is verified because it's notable in government news, entertainment, and another designated category. So I guess I trump Elon,

Jeff Jarvis (01:20:49):
But, but now I can't wait to get rid of my blue check cuz it's the, it's the mark of the eight bucks schmuck.

Leo Laporte (01:20:55):
Yeah. I, I'll be very interested. I'm gonna be on vacation when I lose my blue check. I, I guess I should hope I lose it, right? Because I I

Ant Pruitt (01:21:02):
Wonder if you'll even lose

Leo Laporte (01:21:03):
It though. I bet I won't.

Ant Pruitt (01:21:04):
Because again, it says you're notable. Everybody's

Jeff Jarvis (01:21:06):
Gonna think you're an Elon Suck up then. Uhhuh

Leo Laporte (01:21:08):
<Affirmative>. I did pay when Twitter blue first came out before Elon's acquisition. I did pay for it. Yeah, I did too. I did

Ant Pruitt (01:21:13):
Too, too. I did too. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:21:14):
Okay. Look, here's, okay, so there's a new kind of blue check. This account is verified because it's subscribed to Twitter Blue. Right.

Ant Pruitt (01:21:23):
So, and I hate seeing that,

Leo Laporte (01:21:25):
That that's how that Yeah. So that's how that works. So

Jeff Jarvis (01:21:31):
What was the thing too is that the engineers are working on being able to let you suppress showing your check marks so people won't think you're a schmuck.

Leo Laporte (01:21:37):
Somebody, somebody saw this in the code. It has not been confirmed, but somebody saw it in the code. I love that. But there will be a setting that says, I know I have the blue check, but I don't want anybody to see it. That's right. Didn't Elon want to make the whole thing egalitarian and no princes no poppers. Yes.

Jeff Jarvis (01:21:53):
He didn't want anything

Leo Laporte (01:21:54):
Like that. That's not what he didn't, where that's not Now does

Ant Pruitt (01:21:56):
He still wanna open source the code?

Leo Laporte (01:21:59):

Jeff Jarvis (01:22:00):
He promised it for the end of well March, didn't he? Yeah. He got sick. He got, he got pissed that some of it got leaked.

Ant Pruitt (01:22:06):
That's why I asked. It's like, oh,

Leo Laporte (01:22:08):
Is that, but they had said source. He said, I'm gonna open source the algo. He said, you may not like it, it's gonna be ugly. Oh, that's right. But at least you'll get to fix it. But the problem is he's fired everybody. <Laugh>, who knows how to do that. I think he just, there's no engineering bandwidth to do what he wants to do. Uhhuh, <affirmative>, he may also have realized open sourcing the algorithm is not a good idea because that just means everybody can game it. As soon as you know, what gives you gets you to the top of the list, you game it, you, you make sure you're on the top right.

Ant Pruitt (01:22:38):
Similar to what people have already been doing.

Leo Laporte (01:22:40):
Right. You can

Jeff Jarvis (01:22:41):
Publish. Yeah. Apparently posting TikTok videos, then retweeting them and then commenting on them or something is the current best strategy. There's that's so funny. Ryan Broderick's garbage day, he's been writing about how he's trying to figure out how people are gaining the system. Yeah. And I think that's it. It's like a video, but it's not the video that gets it. It's a comment that quote tweets it that replies to it. <Laugh>. And those the ones, it's some, it's weird, but

Ant Pruitt (01:23:04):
It's like, it makes total sense though. It's all engagement. That makes total sense to me.

Jeff Jarvis (01:23:08):
Yeah. It's like why were magicians all over Facebook for a while. They figured out the magic of getting engagement there with those three minute weird videos and the same thing's happening on Twitter. It's gonna get very weird over there.

Leo Laporte (01:23:20):
Well, not for the Twitter VIPs. Zoe Schiffer writing a platformer seems to have discovered the secret list of Twitter VIPs who get boosted over everyone else. This I guess is a leak. I'm not sure where she got it, but LeBron James Ben Shapiro, cat two. Oh, then to balance it out, a o c and Joe Biden. Oh. I am a paid subscriber, but I guess I'm not signed in, so I'll have to go through that rigamarole. But I don't know. What does that mean? There's a v i p list. Of course there is. There's a there's always been a, remember when Justin Bieber was huge on, he had his own server on Twitter because they had Oh yeah. That's dedicated hardware. The Bieber servers. I think that's always been the case. So Anthony Nielsen says that I am not notable. I'm only notable in my own mind that when he <laugh> when he looks at it, wow. I am jab. See when I look, so when I, when I'm on, I, I'm in a private now I'm not logged in. It says this is a legacy verified account. It may or may not be notable. Oh. Oh. So somehow for some reason Elon is showing me something different.

Ant Pruitt (01:24:38):
Dude, that's fascinating. Well, that's weird. What's that all? I mean, the chief twit called out the so-called Chief twit and that's what happens

Leo Laporte (01:24:47):
To you. I think that maybe because I'm not Elon, I'm seeing that, but when I don't know what a sort of weird

Jeff Jarvis (01:24:54):
I see, I'm looking at my account right now. I have a legacy verified account and it says I'm a legacy verified account. It doesn't say that I'm notable

Leo Laporte (01:25:00):
At all. And you're logged in

Jeff Jarvis (01:25:02):
When I'm logged in. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:25:03):
Yeah. I don't peculiar, like I don't now see he's sucking us into this stupid game. Who cares?

Jeff Jarvis (01:25:11):
Exactly. Well, it'll just make a difference in how you know, what happens, what, what's it gonna be like when verification goes away? Cuz it's been a signal for people not necessarily about credibility, but it was something, it was like you trusted people were who they said they were. And I did see isn't four of you is gonna include people you follow, but then how are you gonna find you're not gonna be able to discover people who aren't paying to promote themselves, basically.

Leo Laporte (01:25:37):
Yeah. And, and it, it seems to me, if you take away the blue checks from people who are actually verified that we will be back to the way where it was when he first did this and there was all that impersonation going on. Right. So anyway, those

Ant Pruitt (01:25:53):
Are fun times.

Leo Laporte (01:25:54):
We shall, we shall find out Saturday <laugh>. Enjoy. I will, I will be not paying any attention whatsoever to that because I, as you shouldn't, I will be on vk Shun <laugh>. So, alright, moving Well here. I finally logged in by the way, to Platformer. Here's the rest of the list. Mr. Beast, mark Andreessen weird Twitter Pioneer at Drill. Do you know who that is? Jeff.

Jeff Jarvis (01:26:27):
Oh yeah. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:26:29):
Oh, you know who it is, Glen? Yeah. Is it good or bad? He's,

Jeff Jarvis (01:26:33):
He's a, well, the guy was <laugh>, there's a question whether Drill got Red Pilled, which is a very modern thing to say. Oh. which is Drill is B was a not exactly a parody account. It was a, a pseudonym account. And the guy posted some of the funniest, most unhinged like weird Twitter stuff for years and years. But then at some point a few months ago, he started to post things that sounded suspiciously, like maybe a slightly funnier or more tuned in Elon Musk. And people have felt like there's a whole conspiracy theory about the account that it was sold or that someone else has taken over, or the guy behind it has has decided to, you know, go Musk or go cue who knows what. But it's got a very different tone. He, he just used to post things that were incredible nonsequitors, but like tap directly into like a very, very of the moment zeitgeist and were just almost incomprehensible a week later. It was an

Leo Laporte (01:27:30):
Incredible skill. That's, that's what Twitter was really good at, right? Yeah. Weird things like that. Horse, horse eBooks,

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:38):
Horsey books.

Leo Laporte (01:27:39):

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:39):
The part of thing is that Andreesen has blocked virtually everybody. Yeah. I don't know why I got blocked by him, but I'm blocked by him. Are you? I got blocked years ago.

Leo Laporte (01:27:48):
I You blocked me in 1996 when I said that it was all over for Netscape once Internet Explorer three came out. So

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:56):
It's a very thin-skinned man.

Leo Laporte (01:27:58):
Yes. what is his is it just Mark Andreessen? What is his?

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:02):
No, it's P marker.

Leo Laporte (01:28:04):
Oh, that's right. P marker. Yeah. Let me just

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:07):
See Seema,

Leo Laporte (01:28:07):
See if I'm blocked. No, I can see his stuff. He hasn't blocked me.

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:10):
I'd like to point out, I always do this one. Now he follows

Leo Laporte (01:28:13):
Me. Look at that. Hi P Marco.

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:15):
We used to be in conversations all the time.

Leo Laporte (01:28:17):
Let's see what his oh, this is a new thing by the way. When Cala Canis was on twit, I had, I asked him, what's this all in thing next to your name? Oh yeah. And that's the thing they pay for Now, that's the A 16. He's got the A 16 Z Gly, that's his venture capital firm. Kakais had the all in glyph for, he, he tried to sell me and get a Twi giff, but no, I'm not gonna participate.

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:42):
How much? I'm glad they're happy

Leo Laporte (01:28:44):
He didn't gimme a price. But I I think you

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:46):
$5 a month, isn't it? Isn't that the company? I think that's just for verification. I don't know. It's Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:28:50):
Is not corporate verification.

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:53):
You know, you have to wear a certain amount of flair. Leo. You have to have 25 pieces of flair. That's just, it's just a recommendation.

Leo Laporte (01:28:59):
Some flair. I just wanna say Mastodon, you have all the flare you want no charge.

Jeff Jarvis (01:29:06):
That's right. Free flare.

Leo Laporte (01:29:07):
Free flare, free flare. And believe it, people use it. Outstanding. A lot of flare up there on the Mastodon <laugh>. In

Jeff Jarvis (01:29:16):
Fact, one of, I just like to point out, every time Elizabeth Holmes gets the news, I like to point out the New York Times. Was it this fashion section or something? We had a cover story or written by Mark Andreessen's wife and Mark Andreessen had some connection to Theranos and was extolling Elizabeth Holmes as the future of everything. And none of the entanglements were disclosed. So, oh Lord, you go all that little world talking to each other

Leo Laporte (01:29:40):
Also on the list. Comedian Jabi Young White, don't know who that is. Yeah. Tesla Community account. Tesla owners, SV and Journalists. Mad Laus, Glenn Greenwald, Noah Smith, and Adrian wa Naroski. Can we put air quotes around journalist in this case? Yeah. Platformer is not publishing the full list. Whose makeup has changed slightly over time to protect our sources identities. Hmm. Men's wear writer Derek guy is also on the list,

Jeff Jarvis (01:30:14):
Which could Hi guy.

Leo Laporte (01:30:16):
Hi guy. Yeah, I, you know, I, I really have to bring force myself to do these stories. <Laugh>. I have no idea. <Laugh>, you haven't heard a lot of Facebook stories over the last couple of years. Yeah,

Ant Pruitt (01:30:31):
Thank you.

Leo Laporte (01:30:32):
I feel the same way about Twitter at this point. It's just so many people, including Jeff and Stacy are still, you know, Twitter users and I, so I feel like, I guess I have to cover this. I don't know.

Ant Pruitt (01:30:44):
It, it has its place, you

Leo Laporte (01:30:46):
Know, I guess

Ant Pruitt (01:30:47):
That's about how I look at it. Facebook has its place too. I'm not a Facebook user, but again, I've mentioned before that I know a, a handful of users that where their business thrives because of Facebook

Leo Laporte (01:30:58):
Connection. Yeah. Well, I understand that. Don't

Jeff Jarvis (01:31:00):
Sh don't shoot yourself in the foot. Yeah. When we did the shift Happens book, by the way, Kickstarter. Kickstarter lets you create unique URLs for, you know, a bazillion of them to track. And so we can see how Twitter performed when, when marching or I, I used an account I barely post to, I haven't posted hardly since November, but I've been posting promotional things when those come up, projects I'm working on. We can see how it performed relative to Mastodon and other social media and it performed quite well. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:31:26):

Ant Pruitt (01:31:26):

Jeff Jarvis (01:31:27):
Keep riding. It's still delivering. Okay. So keep keep riding it. Don't shoot yourself in the foot, but don't be, I'm not trying to make Twitter a better place.

Ant Pruitt (01:31:34):
<Laugh>. No,

Jeff Jarvis (01:31:35):
I'm, but I'll use it. I'll use this as long ass an available valuable tool to the

Leo Laporte (01:31:38):

Ant Pruitt (01:31:39):
On our don't come TWI social.

Leo Laporte (01:31:41):
Yeah, we still do it. Yeah. Our social media people, you do. Well, if I had the power, I would say don't, but I don't have the power to do that. <Laugh> I haven't posted on Twitter in age ages since, since November. So today I went to the,

Jeff Jarvis (01:31:58):
I went to FE forum, which was a today and tomorrow is a, is a, is an UN-conference online. Yeah. for folks on the fed averse good folks there talking about important stuff. But let's note one thing. There wasn't a black person among the 65 people who were there. And so there are communities that's only one of them that's are still on Twitter. And it's not, it's easier for me to move off Twitter. It's not easy for a community to move off Twitter. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and I, I think we gotta recognize that people have invested in it. Yeah. And they have value there. And to leave and say, oh, everything's okay. Almost looks like white flight to the suburbs. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we're a little careful here. I think

Ant Pruitt (01:32:42):
You know it. Someone brought that up as well for as the communities. And they asked me about it and I said, well, for me, when I go to the Fed diverse side of things, it looks, it definitely looks like people are trying to build community and mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and I get that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, but I'm a broadcaster. My community is very, very small. And most of my community, even though my phone number you ever heard of phone numbers, <laugh>, most of my community

Jeff Jarvis (01:33:10):
White pages are in the white pages are here

Ant Pruitt (01:33:13):
<Laugh>. You know, so, so that's where I am with this stuff. And I get that, you know, Twitter can still be used to connect a lot of people. Unfortunately, it's just a lot of a cesspool crap happening. But trying to get, say, black Twitter more so not black Twitter, black folks to jump to the Feder verse, I I, I find it an interesting challenge, especially when most people are like, well, isn't that a Facebook clone? Isn't that a Twitter clone? Why do I want to go over there? At least every time I ask somebody that's quote unquote normal and black about the fed averse or activity pub.

Leo Laporte (01:33:48):
I mean, there look won't be, I don't why scare people watch. There are some, there are some black people on Twitter.

Ant Pruitt (01:33:53):
There are,

Leo Laporte (01:33:54):
I don't, I

Ant Pruitt (01:33:55):
There are some un unfed averse. I mean, you just searched that hashtag black Macedon black and all. That's quite a few things there. There's a ton in there. Yeah. You know, but again, if I go and explain that to say a cousin of mine or a

Leo Laporte (01:34:11):
They never

Ant Pruitt (01:34:12):
Heard of doesn't, that doesn't live here in California. Uhhuh <laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:15):
Yeah, you're right Dan.

Ant Pruitt (01:34:17):
They're gonna be like, why, dude, you know.

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:20):
Well, another discussion was a lot of the affordances that people say black Twitter needs the discussion today was the journalist need, they want search, they want quote tweets. Yeah. they wanna be able to search for URLs. That there's other things that, you know, Taylor Lorenz comes on to masks Don and says, eh, it ain't working for me folks.

Leo Laporte (01:34:38):
Boy, she didn't last long.

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:40):
<Laugh>. No, she didn't. Wait,

Leo Laporte (01:34:41):
Chase put you right

Ant Pruitt (01:34:41):

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:42):
At least plunge.

Ant Pruitt (01:34:43):
Yeah. But she's also a broadcaster.

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:46):

Ant Pruitt (01:34:46):
Yep. She has different needs.

Leo Laporte (01:34:48):
Yeah. I just, I wish people wouldn't support Elon, but that's just me.

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:52):
So I know, I know. I don't, I don't like it either, but

Leo Laporte (01:34:54):
I, I think it's a mistake. You know, same reason I'm not on truth social. I just, I don't want to support it.

Jeff Jarvis (01:35:02):
It's, it's gonna keep going down. I mean, what his latest thing is that only people who pay will be in will be promoted in the four you. Yeah. Which means that, that's people who I know and eight bucks bucks. And so it become, makes it completely unusable. He's one

Leo Laporte (01:35:16):
You can't do you think people you know will, will pay eight bucks?

Jeff Jarvis (01:35:20):
I think I've seen one or two who have, but, but I, I think less, I think, I think I think horribly of them now. And I will probably unfollow every single one of them.

Leo Laporte (01:35:29):

Jeff Jarvis (01:35:30):
Seriously. Man, that kind of judgment. Let ask what matter to be on Twitter. It's another matter to give the shmuck money.

Leo Laporte (01:35:36):
Let me ask about TikTok. Do you think TikTok will end up being banned? Or do you think it will be, what do you think is gonna happen? This is all gonna go away. They've made their made their noise.

Ant Pruitt (01:35:48):
I think as long as we have lobbyists it, it probably will go away because they want to keep the likes of Facebook and Twitter happy here in the good old us today. And figure out a way to, to trick those folks into, trick the leadership into banning it so they can continue to get more mindshare. I I think that's more of a plan. That's just my 2 cents. I'll

Leo Laporte (01:36:12):
Give you a reason that to, to hate TikTok Norwegian company, Namo, which makes I guess ammo <laugh>, interestingly, Norwegian ammo says they're they are cannot make enough a Ukrainian ammunition because there's a nearby TikTok data center using up all the electricity. And Namo says they can't expand ammunition manufacturing capacity to aid Ukraine until the TikTok data center <laugh> either shut.

Jeff Jarvis (01:36:45):
Sounds a little fishy, doesn't it?

Leo Laporte (01:36:46):
Wow. It's monopoli. Well, I think you, you gotta talk to the local utility is monopolizing electricity in the region. <Laugh>,

Ant Pruitt (01:36:54):
Is there a lobbyist involved there?

Leo Laporte (01:36:56):
Namo is co-owned by the Norwegian government. You'd think they'd have some cloud. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:37:00):
You'd think they have a little cloud here. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:37:02):
Yeah. But that's Norway, right? There's very eg egalitarian, you know, we are concerned because we see our future growth is challenged by the storage of cat videos. This sounds like an onion piece, but it's in the garden. It really

Jeff Jarvis (01:37:17):
Does. <Laugh>. I didn't this one cuz it just sounded too wacky. I don't know this reporter. It's gotta be, I mean, it's weird actually, Norway, of course they call it

Leo Laporte (01:37:28):
Tuk talk. Just, no, it's nothing. Sorry.

Jeff Jarvis (01:37:31):
<Laugh>. <Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:37:32):

Ant Pruitt (01:37:33):
What? See yourself. I'm sorry,

Leo Laporte (01:37:34):
What are they called? Tuk Tuck. See

Ant Pruitt (01:37:35):
Yourself out. Talk.

Jeff Jarvis (01:37:38):
It's Norwegian. So talk, talk. It's not TikTok.

Leo Laporte (01:37:40):
It's Oh, talk. Talk. Never. Nevermind. Talk, talk. Well, apparently the story originated in this Rupert Murdoch publication, the Financial Times.

Jeff Jarvis (01:37:51):
Oh, that's not, that's not, that's not his. He said no, he doesn't know. The

Leo Laporte (01:37:55):
European ammunition maker says this is, this is yeah,

Jeff Jarvis (01:37:59):
Storage aggregated. So who, who did the financial times get it from? Who?

Leo Laporte (01:38:03):
Oh, let's see. Let's see. What did,

Jeff Jarvis (01:38:06):
What's a telephone

Leo Laporte (01:38:07):
Game? Demand for ammunition has searched thanks to the war in Ukraine, which is using about 6,000 rounds per day.

Jeff Jarvis (01:38:15):
I don't think you're allowed to do accents from wars involved. Lets, ok, let's go to

Leo Laporte (01:38:21):
German. Said, demand for artillery rounds was more than 15 times higher than normal. The European ammunition industry needs to invest 2 billion in new factories just to keep up with the demand from Ukraine, let alone other European countries. According to the Namo, chief executive, TikTok is building three data centers. This, you know, if I have a choice between guns and cat video, I'm gonna choose Cat video. Tiktok is building three data centers this year with the option of ending two more by 2025 in Hamar, which is 25 kilometers to the east of RAOs. Norwegian data center provider. Green Mountain said this month asked whether it was coincidence that a Chinese owned company, oh, here we go, was stopping a defense company's expansion bra replied. I will not rule that out. That it's not by pure coincidence that this activity is close to a defense company. I can't rule that out. Tiktok. Okay.

Jeff Jarvis (01:39:25):
So I just found a story on often Poston.

Leo Laporte (01:39:28):
Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:39:29):
Often Poston dated 3 27. That, that's only one story in the major paper of Norway. I'll put it in the chat right now and you can use Google Translate.

Leo Laporte (01:39:42):
I'm satisfied. The Financial times did not make this up.

Jeff Jarvis (01:39:47):
No, but

Leo Laporte (01:39:48):
It's weird.

Jeff Jarvis (01:39:50):
Well, I lo I love it when Google can't translate the oddities of the language. So TikTok takes the power from Indu from the industry, says the headline subhead the project at Hamar is an egg from hell. <Laugh>. I'm sure that means something to me. Talk, talk, talk to the dog. That's

Leo Laporte (01:40:07):
That's very, that's very Norwegian. An egg from hell. Yes. <laugh>. Next time I'm in Christian Sunday, I will, I will refer to it as an egg from hell.

Jeff Jarvis (01:40:18):
It's in the text. The project is an egg from hell. It could be a disaster for Inland Industries weakened defense capabilities and damage Norway's reputation in nato. It's a, it's an opinion piece.

Leo Laporte (01:40:29):
Yeah. Maybe that's it.

Jeff Jarvis (01:40:32):
Now, now I gotta find out what egg from hell. Norwegian. <laugh>. Geez. Oh, so is this the egg from hell? C o of the comp the ceo e o of the company is the one being quoted, not government officials. So is it the CEO Namo the

Leo Laporte (01:40:42):
Story of Namo Norwegian ammo. Murder to Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:40:45):

Leo Laporte (01:40:46):
Ammo. You have a choice. Cat videos or ammo, actually, you know what? Because it didn't take, they're now saying, and Green Steel. So now what do you, now how much would you pay Gordon Moore, founder of Intel and the se a guy who was embarrassed that he was known as the creator of Moore's law, passed away, passed away last week at the age of nine, rip old age of 94. Gordon was one of the, what did they call them? The the UN unfaithful eight, the evil eight, the the, we left Hazel, they left Shock. Right. Hateful Eight or something like that. Hateful something. No, that's a, that's a oh, that's a movie. Movie. <laugh> <laugh>. They left start Fairchild Electronics. They left Shockley right. To start in 1956, I think something a long, this is a long time ago.

In the earliest days of microprocessors, they left Shockley to create Fairchild. And then a few years later, the Traitorous ate, that's the name of it. Gordon Moore. Sheldon Roberts. Eugene Kleiner later of Kleiner Perkins. Robert NOIs, also one of the co-founders of Intel. Victor Greenwich, Julius Blank John Herney and Jay last were the Traitorous eight. They left Shockley in 1957 to found Fairchild. And of course then later went on three of them went on to found Intel. So he was one of the founders of Intel. And never called it by the way Moore's Law. It was the name Moore's Law was car coined later by a tech journalist. Moore's Law also apparently was misrepresented. I've been saying for a long time that the number of transistors in an integrated circuit would double every 18 months.

It turns out he said every two years. But what that means is processor performance would double every two years. And he has been pretty much correct. Yeah. Ever since the name Moore's Law. Do you think it's gonna end or not? That's still, you know, it's still the, he doesn't get to see how it turns out or No, no. The name Carver Mead popularize the term Moore's Law in 1975. Moore o often said he was embarrassed that it was called Moore's Law, but nevertheless it was fairly I think fairly accurate. I don't know if it's over, is it over? It's too soon to say it's over. Here's the here's a graph from Wikipedia Moore's Law and over on the left hand side, the Intel 4,004, which had around 1200 transistors in 1971. And on the right hand side, more modern processors like the AM MD, epic and an apples M two processor. Were getting up to 50 billion on a single die. So it's still working down, as you can see, sizes, right? Yeah. Cuz this is a lag scale, as you can see. It really has doubled every two years. It's, it's actually been almost, it's kind of an amazing prediction. It's been so accurate.

Jeff Jarvis (01:44:10):
I put in the rundown the original Intel business plan.

Leo Laporte (01:44:13):
Oh, yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:44:14):
Which is one badly typed page. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (01:44:18):

Leo Laporte (01:44:19):
Amazing. Was the third step profit <laugh> nailed it? I think so. I think so. Oh. How about this? The Utah Governor <laugh> Jesus who signs a law requiring parents have to consent for minors to use social media. And by the way, minors is anybody under 18? You get got, Hey, hey, 17 year olds. You gotta get mom and dad to allow you to use social media. And by the way, no matter who, you can't use it after 10 30 and you can't use it before six 30 based on location.

Jeff Jarvis (01:44:56):
They're gonna be marching into homes, letting you have your guns. But making sure your kid's not online, you're gonna be working in a coal mine at well

Leo Laporte (01:45:04):
Said Mr. Jarvis. Yeah, well said. You're gonna be making sneakers, but don't be on that Twitter.

Jeff Jarvis (01:45:10):
Glen's volume just went way down. Oh

Leo Laporte (01:45:12):
No, he's fine.

Jeff Jarvis (01:45:14):
Oh. Oh. He

Leo Laporte (01:45:15):
Muted himself. <Laugh> good. Now you chased him away. Then he ran off. Wow. Good Lord. The wild.

Jeff Jarvis (01:45:23):
Do that to Stacy, please. You didn't, we're having some technical mic. My sisters are,

Leo Laporte (01:45:27):
I think you were fine.

Jeff Jarvis (01:45:28):
No, he was talking and we couldn't No,

Leo Laporte (01:45:30):
And we couldn't hear

Jeff Jarvis (01:45:31):
No Mike placement. My mic is doing weird things. So if you can hear me now, that's great. We hear you. You now, you can just edit me outta the show entirely. No, it'll miss me.

Leo Laporte (01:45:39):
Nope. Not happening. <Laugh> <laugh> by the way, this, like a band of TikTok would be almost impossible to enforce. I don't know what the plan is. It's

Jeff Jarvis (01:45:49):
Well, plus it means that every person in Utah, one, you gotta find out what the other, in Utah, number two, everybody has to prove their age. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:45:56):
If you're, if you're my age, small government, I still have to go somewhere and say, see, I'm not 18 <laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (01:46:04):
The party is small Government just wants someone in your house monitoring your age at all times.

Leo Laporte (01:46:09):
That's all, that's all we need. That's all we need.

Jeff Jarvis (01:46:12):
And no sex like that. Oh. <laugh>. However, be Utah. Maybe you could have a few wives, but not doing certain things. It the party of small government and big binoculars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's so awful. It's just so awful. You know, I'm sorry. I'm gonna say it. I'm gonna say it. Stacy's not here to get mad at me, but this is the, these are the fruits of moral panic. When you enable such panic about this, it allows crap like this to get passed. And it affects us all. <Laugh>. Thank you aunt

Leo Laporte (01:46:43):
Here from the Computer History Museum is the original poorly typed intel business plan. The company will engage in research development, adn, manufacturer, and sales of, they got typos in here, integrate electric. Should we feed this to chat G P T and see if there's any they need a, any

Jeff Jarvis (01:47:08):
Clean that typewriter. Terrible

Leo Laporte (01:47:10):
Ribbon at the ribbon. That's what I was gonna ask. What's wrong with that ribbon? I think they typed it at Martin's website. This looks exactly like this is laggy scaling

Jeff Jarvis (01:47:20):
Integration lags higher too. They tried to scratch something. It didn't work.

Leo Laporte (01:47:24):
Yeah. Why? They print, what is that? Principal customers? I guess that's what that's supposed to be. Many of these customers will be located outside California. Wow. Wow. This is, I don't know. That's, I don't know who they,

Jeff Jarvis (01:47:39):
It came from, it comes from the Computer History Museum. So that's why I believe,

Leo Laporte (01:47:42):
Yeah. I guess they were going out trying to get investments.

Jeff Jarvis (01:47:48):
How old was Moore?

Leo Laporte (01:47:49):
94. Which honestly, if you and I get there we got, we have no

Jeff Jarvis (01:47:54):
Reason watching my father at 97. Yeah. It's just, it's hard. God bless

Leo Laporte (01:47:58):
Him. It's hard. Yeah, it gets hard. He's 97. Wow.

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:01):
97. And he is just gone through with Covid. He went through two hospitalizations, internal bleeding, pneumonia, and hallucinations. And God, God bless me. He's back home and doing well.

Leo Laporte (01:48:10):
Good. That's good. Outstanding.

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:12):
Geez, man. You,

Leo Laporte (01:48:17):
1988 at the National Science Foundation, the new assistant director and a colleague swapped ideas about the future of a dial-up network. Barely known at the time of the public. 1988. I kind of might have known about it, but anyway. Restricted mostly to academia and federal agencies.

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:34):
Show me the video.

Leo Laporte (01:48:36):
Well, when was the, well,

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:37):
I think you might have video.

Leo Laporte (01:48:39):
Yeah. Might. When was the, well, because that, that my first experience internet was on the well, and that was, I was

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:46):
Using the 80, late 1980s. Cause

Leo Laporte (01:48:49):
Was round then. 85,

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:50):
February 85.

Leo Laporte (01:48:51):
Okay. So help

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:52):
Me get a

Leo Laporte (01:48:52):
Job. So the well, which was a which it's still around. Yes. Since 1985 is was a early, you know, kind of chat board. A lot of people in the Bay Area especially were on it. Stewart Brand started it ran off a houseboat, his houseboat for a while. But I remember when I was on the well, that you could issue a command and drop out of the forum into this weird thing where there were things like Gopher and Archie, and you could go around and see stuff. And I'll never forget experiencing that. And, and then, like, there's a lot of people on here. So I think by 1988, I'd had some experience with this internet. It wasn't what it was gonna be. But I think by then, I probably had in the event a doctor William Wolf, this assistant director at the NSF said it hit me like a ton of bricks. Imagine the colleague said, if this system was open to everyone. Within weeks, Dr. Wolf was in contact with the inventor of the internet. Al Gore a democratic senator for Tennessee. He'd been talking up for years before this. The promise of a data superhighway, you may not remember, but Al Gore's father was responsible for the interstate highway system. Many in the fifties. So his, so as his son, I think

Jeff Jarvis (01:50:16):
I like, I like how he said, you may not remember <laugh> to

Leo Laporte (01:50:20):

Jeff Jarvis (01:50:21):
Wasn't born for like a half a century later.

Leo Laporte (01:50:24):
You may remember, doc, what was Al Gore? What was Al Gore's? Fa He was Al Gore Jr. Right. I think his father was Al Gore as well. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Anyway Dr. Wolf asked if Gore would spearhead efforts to drop the government gatekeepers from the digital domain. This, now, I know you remember this because the NSF ran the internet for the longest time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the NSF had rules, NSFNET had rules about commercial speech. You couldn't advertise on the internet. Yes. And the day the NSF gave the internet to the people was the day commercialism came to the internet. What,

Jeff Jarvis (01:51:04):
What was that? Let me just, I, I wrote an article about that called The Experiment is Over. Right? When that happened in 1994 maybe. Is that possible?

Leo Laporte (01:51:15):
Let's, let's see. 1998.

Jeff Jarvis (01:51:18):
What? Oh no, no. 19 six when the browser came out. So it was 95, 19 95. 

Leo Laporte (01:51:24):
Okay. So this is, is from an article. I've got an article here from the nsf, they should know mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, the NSF net. Went online in 1986, connected the super computer centers of 56,000 bits per second, 56 K Bo <laugh>. And and I, that was how I was getting onto it. By the way. It was a 56, I, if I was lucky, a 56 K, 300 US robotics acoustic modem. Yeah. I had the acoustic modem before that. In short time, the network became congested By 1988, its links were upgraded to 1.45 megabits per second. Which was what the speed of a t1. That's right. Yep. A variety of regional research and education networks supported in part by the National Science Foundation and arpanet were connected to the N NSF net backbone, thus extending the Internet's reach throughout the United States throughout its existence. NSF net carried at no cost any US research and education traffic that could reach it. <Laugh>, if you could figure out how to get on this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It won't cost, right.

Jeff Jarvis (01:52:26):
This was, it was April 21st, 1995 was the start of the transition. And they agreed to support it for four years. But that's when the major commercial backbones, I have a list here. Sprint Link, MCI PSI U net Network, 99. Do any of these names sound familiar besides maybe Sprint

Leo Laporte (01:52:44):
Link? I remember your unit.

Jeff Jarvis (01:52:45):
Oh, were

Leo Laporte (01:52:45):
The ones. So these were all the backbones, the internet backbones, because they, cuz at up, up to that time, it was run by the NSF contractors. That's right. Yeah. The year 1998, according to the NSF marked the end of NSFs direct role in the internet that year. The network access points and routing arbiter functions are transferred to the commercial sector. I'm not sure. Well,

Jeff Jarvis (01:53:05):
Well, that's not exactly right. They're actually, their own history isn't accurate because that process, I, I wrote this contemporaneously, and I know this because I started internet company in 1990, gosh, what was it? 19 94, 19 95. I'm trying to remember. And it was an early web hosting company and we were able to do what we did because we could get a commercial link to the internet and run it legally. 

Leo Laporte (01:53:29):
Yeah. I mean it was a, I don't think you're wrong or they're wrong. It was a process. Yeah. So yeah, it

Jeff Jarvis (01:53:34):
Was a multi-year process, but they started it at a point in

Leo Laporte (01:53:37):
93. The proliferation of private suppliers led to an NSF solicitation in 93 that outlined a new internet architecture that largely remains in place today. So the transition began in 93, which would be Makes sense. I'm trying to remember when I was at Delfi. It's

Jeff Jarvis (01:53:51):
Freaking fascinating

Leo Laporte (01:53:52):
That you started. Oh, sorry. It's pretty cool that he did that, isn't it? I didn't know you started a pioneer internet company in 1990. I

Jeff Jarvis (01:54:02):
Had one of the earliest, was it 1998? I'm trying remember the year, of course. Cause I'm this old, I've forgotten company called Point of Presence Company. I started it in spring of 1993, and it was one of the very first web hosting companies. Cause I saw a tiny screenshot of the Nnc s a browser that Mark Andreesen was one of the people who That's right. Developed at nnc. S a at the University of Illinois. Was it made Sheana Urban Urbana. Well,

Leo Laporte (01:54:28):
We used Speak Champagne Urban. Another called Urbanna Champagne. I don't know

Jeff Jarvis (01:54:31):
Why <laugh>, but he, it was in Mac Week magazine. There was a tiny little picture of what the browser looked like. And I was, and I remember my boss at the time said, that could be the future. And I was like, you're right. And I started a company a few months later, but we were able to get T one service that fall that was commercial and hosted peach Pit press and a few

Leo Laporte (01:54:50):
Flash. What was April 1st, 1996? Glen Fleischman, CEO O of point of tidbits host site presence company, announced today that the company plans to expand its business to additional dimensions. Fleischman said that in 1996, the company's name will change to line of residents company to direct reflects focus on the second dimension. Oh, this is April 4th

Jeff Jarvis (01:55:10):
Or April 1st. Or April 1st, 1996. That's right. We used to host tidbits. We back, we hosted tidbits on some old Sun Microsystems. That's

Leo Laporte (01:55:17):

Jeff Jarvis (01:55:18):
But it was great. I mean, I wouldn't be where I am today if the NSF Net had it started the transition when it did. Cause it was exactly at the time when we wanted to put commercial internet on. And so I've, I've often had the bragging rights. We actually made money. We didn't make a lot of money. Like literally tens of thousands of dollars over the years <laugh>. So, so we were profitable when I sold the company. And it, it remained profitable until it was shut down when the person who sold it joined what became part of all recipes. And oh, other people lost millions or hundreds of millions of dollars. I'm like, well, I made hundreds of millions dollars more than they did <laugh> by making $10,000 or whatever it

Leo Laporte (01:55:51):
Was. Popcorn. What a great name. Pop.Com pop. You didn't keep the domain probably, huh?

Jeff Jarvis (01:55:56):
No. It's, it's other people's hands now, but many years ago. Many

Leo Laporte (01:56:00):
Years ago. That's a great domain, man.

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:01):
A popcorn company. Domain popcorn.

Ant Pruitt (01:56:03):
That's right. So 1990, you would've made

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:05):
More domain than from the company.

Leo Laporte (01:56:07):
Yeah. By the way, that's still Glen's phone number. I just want to say <laugh>. No, it's not

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:11):
My, sadly, no.

Ant Pruitt (01:56:13):
So, so 1994, you start that company. I didn't know anything about the internet until about September of 1995. That was the very first time my eyes saw the magical world of the internet. And then when I think about my kids and how they were just sort of born into it and it was just like second nature. Yeah. It, it, it's, it's so fascinating. <Laugh>. You started a dag gum company. You were already deep in the trenches. And a year later, I'm just not figuring out like, what the heck is this on this computer? Wait a minute. We have pictures on a computer that's from all over the world. How is this even possible? And just, I just remember my mind being blown back in 95. We

Leo Laporte (01:56:56):
Started the, she just

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:57):
Remember the first time you had like a megabit per second connection and you're like, oh, the internet. I remember getting during

Ant Pruitt (01:57:03):
The internet T1 access, I think I got T1 access somewhere around 2000, something like that. And that blew my mind.

Leo Laporte (01:57:12):
I think I didn't, that was about when I got is S D N, which sold hundred 28 kilobits.

Ant Pruitt (01:57:16):
Right. And then I didn't get

Leo Laporte (01:57:17):
Anywhere faster than that for a long, long time. Wasn't until I got cable internet in the early days of before it was Comcast. It was at home. And I had an at home connection. Mm-Hmm.

Jeff Jarvis (01:57:28):
<Affirmative>. So I was at Delphi in the summer of 90 Delphi.

Leo Laporte (01:57:32):
Yeah. Jeanie, Delphi and Composer.

Jeff Jarvis (01:57:35):
Yeah. They're all of 'em. Right. So I went to Delphi for one month. Holy cow. 96. 96. Oh 96. Okay. Or 94. Sorry. When did the browser come out? We got this up 93 or 94. It was the commercial browser. Give out 90. Oh, the, I was there 94. Yeah. And they were in the process of, of having to create a gooey Murdock had bought it. They didn't have a gooey cuz it was just a green screen. Monochrome. Monotype. Right. And much panic about we gotta have a gooey, we gotta have a gooey, we gotta be aol. We gotta be aol. And I was in the office when they came in and said this thing, the browser is just getting released to the public. And all the geeks said, oh hell. And the News Corp. Hollywood people said, oh, that's too ugly. No one will ever use that. Why you get, get away from us. They weren't

Leo Laporte (01:58:20):
Far. Let's keep making, honestly, they weren't far wrong. It was really

Jeff Jarvis (01:58:24):
October, 1994. And I'll tell you, this is how early we were as a company. My business partner was quoted in the press release for Netscape Navigator 1.0 because there weren't any other web hosting companies out there. So they called us like, Hey, you wanna be in the press release? And Todd said, sure. And it cracks me up, you know, I mean, it all changed very quickly after that, obviously. But and we didn't ride that wave. Right. I joined Amazon in in late 96 and sold my company and and went on that bandwagon and, and left very quickly. But it was it was weird times you'd could like, you know, email Jerry Yang at Yahoo or something and Yeah. He'd be like, Hey, what's going on?

Leo Laporte (01:59:00):
You wanna really feel old. There's now a plaque at the university of Illinois. Urbana Champaign. <Laugh> Mosaic. Oh, right. The first popular graphical browser for the worldwide web was created by Mark l Andreessen and Eric J. Amazing. 93 at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications. Upon its 1993, released to the public mosaic gave internet users easy access to multimedia sources of information, web browsers, multimedia, have transformed the exchange of information. And now, you know,

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:33):
The sign will be updated in the future back when we use primitive eye based technology before our neural implants.

Leo Laporte (01:59:39):
That's pretty primitive. Pretty.

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:41):
But did you see that This is outta the rundown. Musks is now trying to do a part because cuz his effort to do the implants got turned down.

Leo Laporte (01:59:48):
Cause Mike Yeah. The little

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:49):
Wires horrible things. Yeah. So now he's trying to do a partnership with the company. Still. I, the last person on earth I would trust to put anything in my brain is Heon Musk. And anybody who lets him do that is the extreme of the eight bucks schmuck. Yeah. Kidding. I I don't not gonna trust you with anything if you had that kind of judgment.

Leo Laporte (02:00:05):
So, back to Dr. Wallace. Jack Tanning

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:07):
Goes back thousands of years. <Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:00:11):
That's right. That's right. They used to do it during the Napoleonic Wars on the sailing ships, they, they would cut little. They're

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:18):
Neandertal. Yeah. Yeah. There are neandertal skulls. Really? So they were tra panning. So

Leo Laporte (02:00:23):
Yeah. Wow. I believe that's correct. Wow. That's wild. Either that or somebody hit him with a round accent. It just happened. Yeah. <laugh>. So William Wolf passed away at the age of 83, widely considered one of the creators of the internet. He's the guy who called Al Gore, got gore to push changes through Congress. He did not invent the internet, but he certainly facilitated it. Let's,

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:44):
Let's do recognize that Al Gore deserves credit for helping it happen. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:00:48):
Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:48):
Yeah. He's part of the, he's part of the reason

Leo Laporte (02:00:51):
Yes. Passed away in Charlottesville at the age of 83 on March 10th. He said, I didn't, I didn't, I don't know where I was headed. <Laugh> when he, when he created, helped create what we now know as the modern internet. It's a good t Yeah. Very nice little bit from Washington Post. Yeah. follow up on remember Serial and Adnan Saed. Oh. Who was the subject of the probably the most popular, the first certainly podcast to have more than a million listeners. Oh, yeah. Serial. Serial. Yeah. And of course, it was the podcast that brought attention to this case. And eventually got the release last year of Adnan Sight. His his conviction's been reinstated. Pate Court of Maryland ruled that a lower court had violated the right of the victim's brother to have been notified and to attend a hearing. So it's not like, it's not like they're gonna start all over, or, but they do need to, they do need to, they have to redo that hearing. Redo the hearing.

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:04):
Yeah. Just, what a shame. I mean, what a shame this is. I think what the, if you read what the Lawyers for Adnan said was, you know, this doesn't help what's her name? I'm sorry, I'm blanking out of the, what The victim was killed The victim doesn't help the victim's family to have him go back to jail or this hearing again, because it leave, it's no one's any closer to actually identifying the person who killed him. It's killed her. Cuz it's obviously, I mean, I followed this case. So

Leo Laporte (02:02:31):
You, you believe

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:31):
Outside the Serial podcast, did,

Leo Laporte (02:02:33):
Did Serial imply that he was innocent? Or just raise the question? I didn't

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:38):
Listen to, he raised the question. There's the one of his close family friends Robbie Ri, who was the lawyer first brought the case to the attention of Sarah Kig. She had her own podcast with John Kreer as a co-host, just by the way of all things undisclosed. And they covered the case in depth. She wrote a book. There's a lot of information that wasn't presented. And the follow his so-called friend had four or five totally different accounts of what happened. But the Anth, the real issue is he was placed elsewhere. There was information from the cell towers. It wasn't disclosed to the defense. His attorney was dying. Adnan's attorney was dying at the time. She actually, literally was dying and hadn't disclosed that. And mounted improper defense left things out. The, the prosecution didn't present all the information that should have been available. That's why it was vacated. It's very clear he wasn't in the place that he was said to. It's very unlikely that he had anything to do with it. And there's probably somebody else out there, and there is somebody else out there committed the crime. And it's, it's just the, there's nothing that points to him being in the right place at the right time. And there are people who saw him elsewhere, and the cell records show that he wasn't there. So. Right. It's just a, so somebody, somebody got away with this.

Leo Laporte (02:03:48):
So, honestly, it's merely a technicality that the that her brother had not been given enough time. One day in fact noticed that they were gonna have this hearing. He wanted more time. He wanted an opportunity to speak to his attorney to understand what the evidence was. And so at the last minute, he got on a Zoom call. The question was whether that was sufficient notice. And the court this week decided it was not a two to one decision. They reversed the earlier decision to vacate temporarily reinstating side's conviction. The court stayed the new decision for 60 days, meaning it doesn't effect, take effect for two months to give the prosecution and defense time to adjust to the reinstated verdict. He's not going back to prison. And I suspect the ultimate will be the same, which is he'll be his conviction will be vacated. Just,

Jeff Jarvis (02:04:41):
Just highlights. I mean, the prosecutors joined in having this decision va or this, this case vacated because they found essentially exculpatory evidence that was available at the time and wasn't presented. So it's, it's a very clear thing. There'll be another hearing. The same information will be presented. It wasn't fully disclosed because I think it's being investigated actually. And maybe it's a, her name is Haman Lee. I shouldn't, you know, never forget the victim's name. And you know, hopefully they will eventually bring somebody to justice for this, because it's essentially an unsolved crime.

Leo Laporte (02:05:09):
Yeah. let's see. Did we talk about the Pope in the puffer coat?

Jeff Jarvis (02:05:19):
No, we haven't.

Leo Laporte (02:05:20):
<Laugh> No. <Laugh>. I'm ashamed to admit. And I, you know, I mean, honestly, I, one of the, my regular duties every morning is to scan the news and find stories for you know, upcoming shows. And I saw the picture of the Pope in a puffer coat and didn't think twice about it. But I didn't think it was fake. Really. Well, I w like I said, I didn't think twice about it. I guess had I thought about it, it

Jeff Jarvis (02:05:49):
Was too, it was too good to be true <laugh>. It was just too good. 

Leo Laporte (02:05:53):
I would've thought it seems unlikely that the Pope would be wearing this jacket, this Balenciaga, especially since it's clearly tailored to be a papa, papa regalia. You know, it's got the, the belt and everything. Anyway, a

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:09):
Tiny, tiny hand with the tiny, tiny cup.

Leo Laporte (02:06:12):
Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. It looks like he's got his own Papa Water bottle. Anyway obviously it's fake if you think about it. I wasn't thinking there. I just thought, oh, that's cool. The pope's got a nice warm jacket. That's all I thought. Apparently a lot of other people a lot of other people believed it. But for not very long. Good. Not very long. The truth

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:33):
Was yeah, the truth came out all, all, all the get ready an moral panic about the, about the puffer coat is it took no time for the truth to become out. And we all knew that it wasn't. And, and people were having a fit about this. Oh my God. This changes all of our sense of truth. No, it doesn't.

Leo Laporte (02:06:51):
Ryan Broderick tweeted, I think the Balenciaga Pope might be the first real mass level AI misinformation case. Come on. Really? Come. Really? No, no, no. I don't think so. No, no. The

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:05):
Guy who made it, do I have that in here?

Leo Laporte (02:07:08):
Oh, who made it? He

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:09):
Was, he was, he was the guy who made, who made the picture. I was on mushrooms, man.

Leo Laporte (02:07:14):
Oh geez.

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:15):
<Laugh> a couple of mushrooms.

Leo Laporte (02:07:19):
Oh, we need to get that sound bite.

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:22):
<Laugh>. Brian Broderick says that because he was taken in by it. He he was scammed. So he feels

Leo Laporte (02:07:26):

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:27):
Yeah, exactly. He got sucked in.

Leo Laporte (02:07:28):
Well, it's, it's Chrissy Tegan was also taken in. I thought the pope's puffer jacket was real and didn't give it a second thought. No way. I am surviving the future of technology <laugh>. That's pretty good thought. That's always something salient to to add to the, at a

Ant Pruitt (02:07:45):
Glance. It did look real at

Leo Laporte (02:07:46):
A glance. Yeah. It's not, I didn't think, I mean, thing is called Vatican City. I didn't retweet it. I didn't share it. I didn't do anything with it. I just saw it in passing and didn't think twice and said, yeah. Wow. That's cool. But, you know, in hindsight, if you think about

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:00):
It, I thought said it was too good of a joke. Yeah. But here's, here's the interesting thing about this. Imagine if you do that, you have it. Make that, and then you could go to a manufacturer and say, I like this. Make this for me.

Leo Laporte (02:08:12):

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:13):
You can imagine

Leo Laporte (02:08:15):
It could start of

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:16):
AI fashion trends, making fashions. Exactly. Yeah. That's what's that is in fact, what's happening, yeah. Is they're using generative AI for places like shim to make new fashion that has an impact.

Leo Laporte (02:08:28):
You realize

Ant Pruitt (02:08:28):
You use the keyword word for mid journey. Mr. Jarvis, what'd

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:32):
You say?

Ant Pruitt (02:08:32):
Do you realize you used the key word for mid journeys ai. Imagine that's how you start to Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:08:38):
That's how you start. Imagine that's all you have to do. Here is a

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:41):
Coming down from the ceiling.

Leo Laporte (02:08:42):
Here is an cut, an intrepid Amazon delivery. <Laugh>, it's a police standoff. But there's your Amazon delivery guy going right in to make sure what to do. <Laugh>. God, come on. The package does not paid enough. You're not enough. Neither rain nor snow, nor sleet, nor dark of night nor police activity will halt this Amazon

Jeff Jarvis (02:09:10):
Cops yelling at him or something. No. Flood walking.

Leo Laporte (02:09:13):
He's coming up the driveway. There, there they go. They say. Wait. What? Oh, they took the package.

Jeff Jarvis (02:09:20):
Yeah, they took it.

Leo Laporte (02:09:21):
My God. He said, okay, we got it. Let's pass it along. That's legitimate

Jeff Jarvis (02:09:24):
Guys's ammo in

Leo Laporte (02:09:25):
Here. Yes.

Ant Pruitt (02:09:26):
All that driver knows is his job is done and he can report to his

Leo Laporte (02:09:30):
Supervisor. Oh. He took a quick picture of the package so that the guy knows it was delivered. How did we do?

Ant Pruitt (02:09:35):
He's like, I did my part

Leo Laporte (02:09:37):
<Laugh>. That's incredible.

Ant Pruitt (02:09:40):
I did my part.

Jeff Jarvis (02:09:41):
It's so calmly just walking in, walking back.

Ant Pruitt (02:09:44):
I, I, I respect that. That man had a job to do. And he got it done. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (02:09:48):
He did it. He did it. God bless him. Believe God bless him. Unbelievable. He's kind of wondering now, Hey, where are the cop owes a lot of cars. He's like, cup Christ.

Ant Pruitt (02:09:55):
He, he's like, man, I got, it's kinda hard to 300 more packages to get.

Leo Laporte (02:09:58):
Yeah. Right. Exactly. Walk you to walk so

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:01):
Far from this truck. One down 2 99 to go

Leo Laporte (02:10:04):
<Laugh> <laugh>. More than half a dozen Raleigh, North Carolina police cars are visible at the scene. The circumstances surrounding the standup are unclear, but the video has a mass, more than 7 million views. <Laugh> <laugh>, thanks for

Ant Pruitt (02:10:22):
Humoring me by going to that story.

Leo Laporte (02:10:23):
That's how you, that's how you, that's how you get viral. That's how you go viral. <Laugh>. all right. All right. Have we done our duties covering the stories as we must? Have we done everything? I don't. I I don't. The change log has, there's no change log. Nothing. Nothing. No. so, so little that. I don't even wanna bring the band in and get the drums and everything cuz they're on the smoke. Cause

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:53):
You don't wanna pay 'em the money for it. Right. You gotta pay 'em every time. Well,

Leo Laporte (02:10:56):
I have to pay 'em, you know, union, there's a union fee for, you know, cancellation. Of course. Yeah. cuz of course we use a union band. We don't. Yeah, we don't stint. I mean, but really, do you need to know that Google's gonna start showing excessive heat warnings and search? I don't think you need to know that. No, no, no. We don't need to know. But it is a change. It's nice to know.

Jeff Jarvis (02:11:17):
I did put something in here for jab B

Leo Laporte (02:11:19):
I see that put for you. Oh yeah. But you put, you know, okay. I gotta tell you something. It's what? Jeff's not gonna like this cuz it comes from the man. Oh, I know. That's exactly why I put it in your, you tried to

Jeff Jarvis (02:11:32):
Let tell you something, man. So you're trying to, you're trying to send me to the hospital. I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you something right now. Most of the show, I've been an atrial fibrillation. What? Once, once I have been using my cardia.

Leo Laporte (02:11:43):

Jeff Jarvis (02:11:43):
No. Constantly

Leo Laporte (02:11:45):

Jeff Jarvis (02:11:45):
The hell outta here. Bull Shack, I think, no, I think I'm, I'm knocking wood. I think I'm, I'm

Leo Laporte (02:11:50):
All right, Jeff, if you over during a show, I'm not gonna forgive

Jeff Jarvis (02:11:53):
You. Well, we've discussed that. What would happen if I did? We have discussed that in the past? So, so Anne, you don't wanna get Jeff upset tonight? Oh yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:12:01):
You don't wanna do that, dang it. No, it's so bad. It's, it's, it's more about that snippet tax. We all know it's a terrible idea. Let me change the subject real quickly since we're talking. Rupert Murdoch, you know, he's getting married and is someone from Petaluma and she's a local.

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:16):
Oh, no.

Leo Laporte (02:12:17):
She went to the Petaluma High. She's from Petaluma. Graduated in 1975 from Petaluma High,

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:24):
1975. She's that old.

Leo Laporte (02:12:26):
I love this. So Ruper Murdoch was 92, 93, right? She's, I think in her seventies.

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:33):

Leo Laporte (02:12:34):
Six. Oh, yo. She's my age. She is. She's 60. 60. She's in her sixties, right? Yeah. A good looking woman. I love this though. The optimism. Rupert Murdoch ex showed by saying, I'm looking forward to spending the second half of our lives together. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:51):
Bad news for

Leo Laporte (02:12:51):
Her. He live. Hundred 84. What the hell, what

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:58):
The judge said about this right, though, was that Rupert Murdoch's supposed to be testifying in the case that one of the dominion lawsuits where he is supposed to do a deposition. And the judge, judge Eric Davis, said he received a letter previously that said Murdoch couldn't travel to the trial in Delaware. And he's like, Hey, so what's all this about him getting married and traveling between three houses and having no problems, and Fox slurs like, oh, we never said he couldn't. He was too feeble to travel. We we just meant all

Leo Laporte (02:13:25):
Get married. It's a honeymoon.

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:28):
Many different judges. Very dubious. There's many different ways of saying dubious about the Fox lawyers.

Leo Laporte (02:13:34):
Yeah. Wow. 66. She, by the way, is wealthy because her previous husband died at three years after she married him. And he left her a wine, a winery of vineyards. Dear coincidence. Coincidence. There was

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:50):

Leo Laporte (02:13:51):

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:51):
I'm not implying anything.

Leo Laporte (02:13:52):
Nothing at all. Thank you. Nothing. Thank you. He's my attorney. You know there's the Petaluma article. Here we go. Rupert Murdoch's, newest wife, fifth Times the Charm. And Leslie

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:08):

Leo Laporte (02:14:08):
Petaluma of Petaluma. And by the way, courtesy of Anne Leslie Smith, her high school photo, ah, ah, 1975. She's my age. <Laugh>. And and Fox is 92, but they're gonna spend the second half of their life together. Her first <laugh>, her first husband was the son of the Huntington Railroad family. John p Huntington. Then she married Country singer Chester Smith. 27 years. Her senior who passed away three years later. <Laugh>. That's just a, are you saying Rupert? You got no shot? She likes an older man. What's the, I'm

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:51):
Saying she, what's the point? You like Silver Fox, gray Fox. There's like a platinum Fox. A a Rodian Fox. Yeah. A uranium Fox.

Leo Laporte (02:15:00):
Go Yeahium Fox.

Jeff Jarvis (02:15:02):
I, you have to go, you have to go off the metals. There's a California Fox

Leo Laporte (02:15:07):
<Laugh>, ladies and gentlemen. Jeopardy. Champion Glen Fleischman. Everybody. Yeah. Yeah. There's certain things you have to know if you're gonna do Jeopardy, you gotta know Rivers. You gotta know Lakes. And you gotta know the Periodic Table in the end.

Jeff Jarvis (02:15:18):
Periodical table. Ruth, Ruth, Fordham, Fox,

Leo Laporte (02:15:23):
<Laugh>. Before we get to our picks of the week and wrap this thing up, and before I get to leave for the next three weeks, Woohoo. Let me let me flog the Club, club Twit. Now, some people are gonna say, I can hear you now, Leo. I don't want to pay seven bucks a month to finance your Fancy Dan Vacations. Well, I will assure you that this vacation was paid for in 2019, long ago. Not one penny came from Club Twitter. It didn't even, it wasn't even a twinkle in Lisa Le Port's Eye. And every penny that we get from club Twitter goes into production doesn't go into our pockets. But it is, I think, a very important and very valuable thing because we want to keep doing what we do. We love doing these shows. We love adding new shows.

We have, thanks to the club members, added a a bunch of new shows. This Week in Space was a club exclusive that is now public. We brought back Scott Wilkinson's amazing Home theater geeks, thanks to the Club. Hands Windows with Micah, Sergeant hands on, I'm sorry, hands on Windows with Paul Throt. Micah does Hands On Mac, of course. We have the Untitled Lennox Show with Jonathan Bennett. We have the Gizz Fizz with Dick d Barno Stacy's book club events that aunt Pruit, our community manager, puts together lots of great events and ad free versions of all the shows. And all that's just seven bucks a month. We wanna make it a, a real value for your dollar, cuz we really appreciate it. And I know seven bucks a month for some of you, that's just a couple of cup of coffee.

But I, and I certainly don't want you to do it if you can't afford it. But if you'd like what we do and you wanna support it, and you wanna keep it going and wanna see new shows launched, this is the best way for you to do it. And because you're given us seven bucks a month, you don't have to hear any ads. You know, we don't have to monetize you any other way. So if you wanna be the customer, not the product TWIT tv slash club twit, we really appreciate it. And I promise you not one penny. We'll go to my fancy Dan vacation. <Laugh>. Not

Jeff Jarvis (02:17:28):
One thing. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:17:29):

Jeff Jarvis (02:17:30):
The one that they tried to cancel long year gazillion times.

Leo Laporte (02:17:32):
Cause you did cancel it yet. Yeah, <laugh> three times. I remember we were thinking God, we've got this cruise in four months. They've just shut the world down for Covid. Do you think we should cancel the cruise? And, and, and we just, we said, well, let's see, let's see. Maybe Covid will be over in a few weeks. I think they're saying that. Right. And fortunately they canceled it for us. And then again, we may rebooked it for a year later. It'll be over by 2021. Surely it'll be over by 2020. No. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So

Jeff Jarvis (02:18:03):
I said, I wanna tell you my greatest, oh,

Leo Laporte (02:18:05):
Sorry. Go ahead. Well, I just said 2023. That's gotta be safe, right? Well, we'll see if I come back sick as a dog. <Laugh>, I'm, I'm actually kind of nervous to be honest with you. What were you, what were you gonna say, uhoh?

Jeff Jarvis (02:18:18):
Oh, my greatest achievement is we had a family trip planned for June or July of 2020. And was I booked it in January, we hit the button, like right before Covid broke out. Right near us in Washington Stakes. We were sort of ground zero just north of us. Yikes. And I'll tell you, I got every penny back. I got the travel insurance refunded. Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:18:37):
That is an accomplishment. That's a huge accomplishment. Yeah. I think we are out.

Jeff Jarvis (02:18:43):
Well, we, where are you gonna go, Glen? Paris and London. We're aiming for that in July of this year. Finally, again, we're gonna see if that goes. You too are hoping that 2023 is the right move. Well, I traveled last year and I got Covid maybe in Vienna in November, but I was very, very mild. Didn't know till I

Leo Laporte (02:19:03):
Got back. Oh, this, was this your trip with your son? Oh,

Jeff Jarvis (02:19:05):
On that trip you got in that trip?

Leo Laporte (02:19:06):
Yeah. Know that. Oh, we didn't know you got

Jeff Jarvis (02:19:08):
Covid got a very mild case, but I didn't test positive. So both of you get

Leo Laporte (02:19:11):

Jeff Jarvis (02:19:12):
No, somehow he, he'd gotten to last May a, a mild case and he didn't get it. And I also tested when I got home, was positive, isolated from my family, and they didn't get it, so. Oh, that's good. I was the only one. I was the lucky chump, but it was okay.

Leo Laporte (02:19:25):
Yeah. We got it on the last time we went on a cruise last summer. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:19:30):
In Seattle, right? Yeah. We grew up here and

Leo Laporte (02:19:32):
Yeah, it was fairly mild. I it was like a bad cold. Lisa had longer term symptoms. Un unfortunately, but it, it

Jeff Jarvis (02:19:39):
Wasn't, what's she doing now today? She's

Leo Laporte (02:19:40):
Fine. Tastes all better now. Just in time for this trip. Okay, good. Yeah, but I think because we're, I mean, I've had five shots now, as has she, plus I

Jeff Jarvis (02:19:50):
Just saw Leanna Wynn, who I disagree with often these days. She's, she's in the Washington Post, but she's saying that us old folks should get another booster this spring.

Leo Laporte (02:19:59):
Well, gimme my shot. She says it. But the C d C and w h O don't, so I'm gonna defer to them instead of some writer <laugh> in the Washington Post. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, thanks for the input. I think all the evidence is we're still well protected from serious illness, not from getting it, but from serious illness. And that's really the most important thing. I'm, yeah. I, I'll wear a, I think I'll wear a mask on the plane. I think I will certainly. Oh, I to

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:25):
Toronto. I was, I was the only person in the United Lounge Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:20:28):
Wearing a mask. I think in those public areas, I will. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:32):
RSV and flu are rampant and another reason there's really other things aren't there? Yes. So I'm like, I'm happy to not get rsv.

Leo Laporte (02:20:38):
I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I don't mind a mask. Will I wear it in this, in the in the Vatican? In the si I think I'll be protected. Won't I? Actually, we should mention, after talking about his big jacket, the Pope is in the hospital with a respiratory infection. So, yeah. I hope he's okay. Will you

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:55):
Get to see Padre in Rome?

Leo Laporte (02:20:56):

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:57):
That'll be so

Leo Laporte (02:20:58):
Cool. Very much looking forward to that Father. I

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:00):
Know. He who works here. Yeah. Are you gonna get to see the observatory? I heard the Vatican Observatory is quite,

Leo Laporte (02:21:06):
I will ask Father Robert. I don't know. Yeah, that's a good question.

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:09):
It's supposed to be great. He

Leo Laporte (02:21:10):
Says he can get us into some places he can. He can do that. So that's good. Let me make a note of that. Put that on my

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:18):
Article in New York Times about the Vatican Observatory has done some, they've done some great exploration. They're well regarded. It's interesting. Isn't that

Leo Laporte (02:21:26):

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:27):
In the middle of,

Leo Laporte (02:21:27):
It's not what you'd expect is it? But he's, the Jesuit at the Jesuits are very, the Jesuits believe in evolution. I mean, the je it's an interesting thing, you know, going on there. Anyway, pick of the week time. Mr. Glenn Fleischman. Do you have anything for

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:46):
Us? Well, I pick of the week is Trader Joe's everything but the bagel potato chips,

Leo Laporte (02:21:50):
<Laugh>, God bless them. That's a good pick.

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:55):
That is the, that is the best thing. I, I'm afraid they're gonna have to, I want them to put a picture up of me at the store that says, do not sell to this man.

Leo Laporte (02:22:04):

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:06):
Where's the bee? With the

Leo Laporte (02:22:07):
Ding? It all started with the everything but the bagel seasoning, which is

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:11):
Yeah. Which is good stuff.

Leo Laporte (02:22:13):
It's a huge hit for them.

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:15):
It's really good.

Leo Laporte (02:22:16):
Yeah. And then

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:17):
This, it's, so I just,

Leo Laporte (02:22:19):
Oh, I wish you hadn't told me that

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:20):
It's a drug. I'm really sorry. I had somebody on shock, if, you know, shock on Mastodon. I was posting about it and he said, I'm about to go. It's about 15 minutes from I'm about to drive it. And I said, remember to get a bag. Oh, for the way home too <laugh>. He said, oh, thanks

Leo Laporte (02:22:33):
<Laugh>. Oh God. Telling me I would've forgot that. It's a bad sign, <laugh>. Holy moly.

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:40):
It's delicious. Okay. I'm not a paid representative. I'm a sufferer. I'm a victim.

Leo Laporte (02:22:44):
A victim of everything but the bagel

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:48):

Leo Laporte (02:22:49):
Good. What is it? Everything but the bagel, if it has chips, I guess it is still everything but the bagel plus chips.

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:56):
Yeah. It's good

Leo Laporte (02:22:58):
Stuff. Mr. Jarvis. Do you have a snack pick?

Jeff Jarvis (02:23:02):
No. I, I think

Leo Laporte (02:23:02):
We should do snack picks of the week. Now that I'm, now that we've gone down that road

Jeff Jarvis (02:23:07):
A snack every week. No, no, no, no. That's I'm

Leo Laporte (02:23:09):
Snack of the week.

Jeff Jarvis (02:23:11):

Leo Laporte (02:23:11):
I have one. It's a spare rib. Ooh.

Jeff Jarvis (02:23:15):

Leo Laporte (02:23:16):
That's a good snack week.

Jeff Jarvis (02:23:18):
I I should make the Cartia mobile.

Leo Laporte (02:23:21):
Yeah. So seriously, are you tell me what's going on. Are you feeling

Jeff Jarvis (02:23:24):
Symptoms? Fine. But yo Yeah, I was, I

Leo Laporte (02:23:27):
Was Before the show or during the show?

Jeff Jarvis (02:23:30):
Just as the show began, I said Uhoh, and then I ran off for a minute. I had to get a battery for the, for this and take my pills early and got it working. And this thing is, I mean, it's

Leo Laporte (02:23:41):
Amazing. That's from Cardiac K A R D I A. And of course they're in the middle of a lawsuit with Apple who says, you stole our idea. And it's going back and forth. 

Jeff Jarvis (02:23:51):
But this is

Leo Laporte (02:23:51):
A, it works. Did you send the of course it's not a full a KJ e kg, but it's something And did you send it to your cardiologist for review? No.

Jeff Jarvis (02:23:59):
Cause I, I, he, he's working at six o'clock at seven o'clock you think? No, he's not.

Leo Laporte (02:24:04):
Well, I mean cardio has cardiologist.

Jeff Jarvis (02:24:07):
He endorses

Leo Laporte (02:24:07):
It. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:24:08):
He endorses it and think things that it's working. So anyway, that's not, not it. I do wanna mention that I've been, I've been wa I've been waiting for Kevin to review the HP Dragonfly Pro Chromebook.

Leo Laporte (02:24:20):
Those are beautiful.

Jeff Jarvis (02:24:21):
They're beautiful. But then there was one report that the battery life was like two and a half hours.

Leo Laporte (02:24:26):
Oh, screw that.

Jeff Jarvis (02:24:27):
No. Kevin, Kevin, sane, sane Kevin Topel came in and explained No, no, no, no. If you did this and this and this and, and the, and the screen is so bright, you're never gonna want it on. Hundred percent. Yeah. Okay. If you did that. Yeah. But otherwise you're gonna get eight hours. It's okay. So it's very tempting. It sounds like

Leo Laporte (02:24:44):
It's a thousand dollars.

Jeff Jarvis (02:24:46):
Yeah. Well, it's cheaper than the HP dragonfly version, which was 1200 bucks. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's better. 

Leo Laporte (02:24:53):
I don't know if you need a 12th gen I five in a Chromebook, but

Jeff Jarvis (02:24:58):
Oh, oh, I want the best. Leo. I deserve the best.

Leo Laporte (02:25:01):
Yeah. 16 gigs of ranch. I am the

Jeff Jarvis (02:25:03):
Best. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:25:04):
Turn 15. I need good stir. That's good stuff. The best. Yeah. So much horsepower to be in a browser. Come on, <laugh>. Well, remember the

Jeff Jarvis (02:25:12):
Browser. A lot of tabs sir.

Leo Laporte (02:25:13):

Jeff Jarvis (02:25:14):
Chrome. A lot of tabs

Leo Laporte (02:25:15):
Is the chrome. Okay. So he says the battery life is is pretty. He was, he got 10 hours and 21 minutes, which is pretty good.

Jeff Jarvis (02:25:21):
Yeah. So I, I trust above anybody else. Yeah. So, so that's, it's not a big battery though. No, it's not. Kinda a, so then I just wanna plug, I was in in Kitchener Waterloo. Yes. on Saturday doing a debate. Oh guess what? On, you know, his social media ruining democracy. You can guess what side I was on. So there's a little clip there in my should we play it? There were very nice people on TV o the kind of PBS of Ontario. Here we go, ladies and gentlemen. It's only 58 minutes long, so enjoy. No, no. It should've been. No, it should be. It should. The one in there. I thought that was short. The one on Twitter is short. Oh, okay. I, I clicked the one I put in Twitter is just a little sound bite. <Laugh>. God, I clicked the wrong. No. For some reason it's going to that YouTuber. It is. Yeah. That's all right. Let me copy the you, it's a little, it's a thing. Twitter's going to hell. We keep telling you. Yeah. Here we go. Here we go. Here we go. I could see it's you because you're animated. Well, yes. I bang the furniture too.

Speaker 5 (02:26:25):
We have met the enemy and it is us. It is not technology. It is not machines. It is the ill in our own society that we carry into this medium from our past. It is the inequity and the hatred and the racism that we bring with us that matters. So to blame the technology is to stop us from dealing with these core issues in

Jeff Jarvis (02:26:47):
Society. Yeah. Right on jj. Right on, right on. Did it tell it if I were a Twitter user, I'd retweet that. So let me put it on Mastodon. I was next to, I already have it. A ma on. You can ret I'll ret you. Yeah. you can boost me there. So that's Robbie Suave of a Reason magazine was my co oh, I actually like, reason, it's a, I know it's a libertarian in a little bit, but I really like Reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like Robbie a lot. He, he's, I, I liked him. He wrote a book called he, his, a book out called Tech Flash. Murder Tech Panic, I mean, oh yeah, yeah. Tech Panic. You know, you know, I'm gonna like this guy when he writes a book called Tick Panic <laugh>.

You know, the deal on these debates is whoever changes enough minds in the, in the audience wins. When we started off, it was 76 to 24 against us, but in the end it was only 60 40 against us. So we won the debate. Oh, good. Even though you lost Canadians, but you, you moved more. We won. We moved than year. It's just like Trump. We lost but won <laugh>. No, I hope you get a recount. That's, that is a great little clip. And I am, I am retting it right now. That's a really excellent. Exactly. But ni the really, really nice folks at tvo. And what is your snack of the week? I don't have one <laugh>. I've got one. Do I prunes You can lean on in honor of it. In honor of the missing Stacy raisins, dale, men's stroop waffles. Oh. Oh man. Those are so dag. I'm good. You, you, you

Leo Laporte (02:28:20):
Put it on your coffee cup to warm it up and melt the caramel and it is, it is. Good. Got those on United Airlines.

Ant Pruitt (02:28:29):
I'm gonna get some more of those at the studio, sir. Those are some. Okay. So

Jeff Jarvis (02:28:32):
Good. The thing you gotta watch out for with the Dutch though, is they'll love you eat licorice. And that's a

Leo Laporte (02:28:37):
Problem. You can't eat licorice if you got hide blood pressure. Don't do that. But it's

Jeff Jarvis (02:28:40):
So salty it'll kill

Leo Laporte (02:28:42):
Ya. Yeah. Dutch's. I like the Australian licorice. It's a little less salty. Finnish licorice is the worst though. Finnish is like eating a pickle. <Laugh> potato, A fish, a licorice flavored pickle. It's not good. Swop waffle. Yeah. We used to have these in the studio, didn't we? Yes. Yes. I think we stopped cuz we were afraid it was gonna kill people.

Ant Pruitt (02:29:03):
<Laugh>. No, it won't.

Leo Laporte (02:29:05):
<Laugh> <laugh>. All right, Sebastian. We won't kill an stroop waffles. Be

Jeff Jarvis (02:29:11):
Careful. Very careful.

Leo Laporte (02:29:14):
Thank you Jeff Jarvis. And now it's time for Ant Pruitts. Think of the week.

Ant Pruitt (02:29:19):
My pick. First one is very, very simple and I just want you to go ahead and put one of these at your desk and do innocent.

Leo Laporte (02:29:28):
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yes, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Ant Pruitt (02:29:32):
A very, very simple dumbbell.

Leo Laporte (02:29:35):
Oh, no, no, no. Tell me a dumbbell that is which two

Ant Pruitt (02:29:39):
Pounds? Five pounds.

Leo Laporte (02:29:40):
Half a pound pounds.

Ant Pruitt (02:29:41):
10 pounds. Five pounds. 10 pounds. Either one. Just put one of those inches.

Leo Laporte (02:29:46):
And then what do I do? I just leave it there to hold down papers and things.

Ant Pruitt (02:29:48):
You can leave it there to hold down.

Leo Laporte (02:29:50):
And do you have one next to your desk? Now?

Ant Pruitt (02:29:53):
I have one next to me on the couch when I'm watching television, sir. That's, geez, I'm using them. So yeah, just, just pick one up and whiskey and

Leo Laporte (02:30:00):
One hand barbell on the other. Is that how it works? Yeah, that's it.

Ant Pruitt (02:30:03):
<Laugh> and knock out 10, 10 to 15 at a time. What

Leo Laporte (02:30:07):
Are you recommending? Are we doing skull crushers? Are we doing

Ant Pruitt (02:30:10):
No, just do

Leo Laporte (02:30:10):

Ant Pruitt (02:30:11):
Start with some simple bicep curls. Simple bicep curls. Single arm bicep curls. Curls. Just do 10 of those. Okay. You know, when you're waiting on something to render on the screwed

Leo Laporte (02:30:20):
That when I was sitting on my my exercise ball, my yoga ball at, at doing Windows Weekly, I would do those. Lisa gave you hers. She didn't want 'em. We have 'em at home. We have a whole set at home. I'll keep it by. I will. What do you suggest for me? I'm a pretty strong fella. Maybe a do they have a one pound

Ant Pruitt (02:30:39):
Version? No. No. You better not go lower than five

Leo Laporte (02:30:43):
Pounds, sir.

Ant Pruitt (02:30:43):
Okay. Okay. Better not go lower

Leo Laporte (02:30:45):
Than five pounds. Hey,

Jeff Jarvis (02:30:45):
Now you like these. They're coded. They have a good grip. Is that why

Leo Laporte (02:30:48):
They're nice? You pre Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (02:30:50):
Well, Ashley, just, any of 'em. I don't care which ones you get. I'm, my point is just folks don't necessarily have to go and spend $30 Yeah. Plus a month on the gym membership when they can do something simple like that at the leisure of their home, on their, or at their desk or on the couch. I, I, I try to tell people to do pushups and they whine and say, I can't do pushups. Well, you can get a 10 pound dumbbell or a five pound dumbbell and just press it for shoulder presses or do some curls throughout the day. Get yourself a nice little burn and keep your heart rate

Leo Laporte (02:31:21):
Going. When I'm watching succession, I like to do the 35. Put kettle bell indu dittle bell. Go the golet squat. Oh, wow. Yes. <laugh>. It'll dittle. Put some hair on your hold holders. <Laugh>.

Ant Pruitt (02:31:37):
Oh, stop.

Leo Laporte (02:31:38):
I don't know what I'm talking about. Swing that between your legs and see how you feel.

Ant Pruitt (02:31:43):
Oh my gosh.

Leo Laporte (02:31:46):
No, I think that's good advice. You know, just, you know what the thing is, and Lisa's realized this recently, you don't have to do an hour a day. You can do 15 minutes four times a day. You can spread it out. You can do it when it's gonna be Yeah. Do a couple of sit-ups while you're watching, you know Furby and Finns and Ferb and just keep it moving. Keep it moving. Flexibility. I

Ant Pruitt (02:32:04):
Know, I know a lot of folks here aren't watching March Madness and into sports and stuff like that. But if you're watching whatever television show that you're watching

Leo Laporte (02:32:11):

Ant Pruitt (02:32:12):
When the ad break comes up, do some type of movement where we don't have

Leo Laporte (02:32:17):
Ads from my tv.

Ant Pruitt (02:32:18):
Whether it's the, the, the standing squats where this pushups just do something during that break

Leo Laporte (02:32:24):
Time. I I will, I'm gonna have a stroop

Ant Pruitt (02:32:25):
Waffle to the next one. That's what I'm gonna Yeah. Or you have that as a, as a reward.

Leo Laporte (02:32:30):
<Laugh> at the end of the show, have a bag of everything but the bagel chips and a stroop waffle. And then, and then get the cardia, because you will you

Ant Pruitt (02:32:38):
Get the card

Leo Laporte (02:32:39):
Check. Afib. Yeah. <Laugh>. No, that's good advice. I think you're right. I think they just keeping moving is the

Ant Pruitt (02:32:45):
Thing. Just keep moving. Yeah. Not hard. Yeah. lastly, I want to give a shout out to Miss Bon Brown. She is a powerlifter Holy

Leo Laporte (02:32:54):

Ant Pruitt (02:32:55):
Lady. I saw

Leo Laporte (02:32:55):
This video

Ant Pruitt (02:32:56):
The best

Leo Laporte (02:32:57):
Oh my

Ant Pruitt (02:32:58):
God. Tag on Instagram ever because she set the record in squats.

Leo Laporte (02:33:02):
Four, six hundred six hundred and seventeen

Ant Pruitt (02:33:05):

Leo Laporte (02:33:06):

Ant Pruitt (02:33:06):
Come on. And she crushed,

Leo Laporte (02:33:07):
Crushed it.

Ant Pruitt (02:33:08):
Absolutely crush that record. God. But follow her on Instagram. She's a fun follow. Does a lot of little crazy stuff, but just, she's also getting into showing, you know, her workouts and things like that. If you click to the left. Unbelievable on that. She has her bench press from that as well as her deadlift. Her deadlift is just ridiculous too. If you click left,

Leo Laporte (02:33:30):
I don't

Ant Pruitt (02:33:31):
Understand. You usually have a little arrow.

Leo Laporte (02:33:32):
There's no arrow on this. It's just one.

Ant Pruitt (02:33:35):
Oh, I'm sorry.

Leo Laporte (02:33:35):
There's no left. What you trying Your

Ant Pruitt (02:33:37):

Leo Laporte (02:33:38):
You're just messing with me, aren't you <laugh>? You're just, just Come on, Leo. You know, just click left.

Ant Pruitt (02:33:45):
It's on my screen.

Ant Pruitt (02:33:48):
I don't know what you did.

Leo Laporte (02:33:49):
I don't know either. <Laugh>, I

Ant Pruitt (02:33:52):
Instagram. Anyway, shout out to her. Her, she absolutely crushed the, the, the power lifting record there. That's awesome. Just last week. So give her a follow up. She's good people too.

Leo Laporte (02:34:04):
I could do that with a one pound dumbbell.

Ant Pruitt (02:34:07):
Do that, do that about a thousand times, sir. And you, you may get to her warmup set. Yeah. Really

Leo Laporte (02:34:15):
Unbelievable. Ladies, gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us for this edition of this weekend. Google Glenn Fleischman. Always great to see you, Glenn. Fun. You implied that there might be pirated versions of your Jeopardy appearance somewhere

Jeff Jarvis (02:34:30):
Possible. It's possible. Wouldn't be

Leo Laporte (02:34:32):
On unusual YouTube though, probably, right? It would be

Jeff Jarvis (02:34:34):
I don't secrets. There used to be daily Motion used to have a lot of old Jeopardy stuff too.

Leo Laporte (02:34:40):
Oh, I would love to watch you on Jeopardy. Maybe, you know, they do old shows. Maybe they'll just bring it back by chance. I'll be sitting there lifting my one pound weight and there'll be my friend Glen <laugh>. Yeah. I like to actually, I do, when I'm rowing, I do it when I'm rowing. I do two jeopardies in a row while I'm rowing. Because then I'm working my brain and my glutes <laugh>, which some people say are the same. <Laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (02:35:06):
Can I do a random plug? I doesn't

Leo Laporte (02:35:07):
Say there's a joke in there, but I'm not gonna plug it, plug away.

Jeff Jarvis (02:35:11):
So on, on April, this is just a very glen thing. On April 22nd, if you're near Columbus, Ohio, I'll be doing a, I'll be part of an afternoon workshop at the Billy Ireland Cartoon Library Museum at the Ohio State University. Oh, I'm talking about how comics were printed with actual materials from the Billy Ireland collection in my own collection, showing all the pieces that that it requires to that go from an artist board, from originals through all the print production methods to going into a newspaper. So they're doing a whole afternoon. This is part of the exhibition. Man saves comics about the great Bill Blackbeard, now deceased, who collected millions of comics, pages and strips that were being discarded by libraries and other institutions. Sometimes the only copies, often the only copies of those comics across a hundred plus years of cartoons that survived because he was a pack rat. And they're all at the Billy Ireland now six trailer truck, full, 75 tons of comics were transferred to the library 25 years ago. And they're celebrating that with an exhibition. And I've got a video in there showing stuff, and I'll be there in person. So,

Leo Laporte (02:36:21):
So what are you bringing, you're bringing some

Jeff Jarvis (02:36:22):

Leo Laporte (02:36:22):
Somes and

Jeff Jarvis (02:36:23):
Stuff, or They've got some flos. I've got some flos. It's gonna be a good time. They've got original art too, so they can show the whole, we'll show the whole stage, the whole process.

Leo Laporte (02:36:32):
Oh, neat. Because it says it'll be a drop in show and tell with print historian. Yeah. Glen Fleischman. So you're gonna bring some stuff from your collection and some stuff from there. So I'll bring

Jeff Jarvis (02:36:41):

Leo Laporte (02:36:41):

Jeff Jarvis (02:36:42):

Leo Laporte (02:36:42):
Flaws. If you're in Columbus. Actually, this would be worth a trip if you ask me the Billy Ireland cartoon Library and Museum. Yeah. Part of the Ohio State

Jeff Jarvis (02:36:51):
Ever driving through Columbus. You should stop through. They do exhibitions. They have constantly have exhibitions. They last for months at a time. And just an incredible, it's, it's incredible that we have an institution like that that is actually publicly supported in the sense that the Ohio State University is a public institution in that state to support comic arts, an incredible, very American thing. Other countries, the national governments think it's important enough. Like in France, there's an has an amazing center that I haven't been to, but everyone talks about. And and we've got Bill Billy Ireland,

Leo Laporte (02:37:21):
Ferry Barry cool Thank you Glen. Always love having you on the show. Thank you. I appreciate it. I think we're seeing more of you while I'm gone and I'm sorry I won't be here for that. But everybody else will be, I hope

Jeff Jarvis (02:37:37):
<Laugh> I'll be back.

Leo Laporte (02:37:38):
Jeff Jarvis, you know him better as the director of the Town Night Center of Entrepreneurial Journalism at the Craig Newmar

Jeff Jarvis (02:37:46):

Leo Laporte (02:37:47):
Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York. I hope you have a great trip. I hope you're feeling better. Come back. Come back. Oh, I will come back. Are you kidding? Wouldn't miss that for the world. And I'm putting in here right now, the Vatican what was it? Planetarium,

Jeff Jarvis (02:38:07):
The observatory. I don't know how open it is to the public, but if you found maybe

Leo Laporte (02:38:11):
Pad, get me in there

Jeff Jarvis (02:38:13):
And knock on the door three times and say Galileo was right and they'll let you in

Ant Pruitt (02:38:18):
The speak easy <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:38:20):
Don't say Galileo is right. They'll burn you. The steak. What are you talking about?

Jeff Jarvis (02:38:25):
Sorry. It's [inaudible] It move. That does move.

Leo Laporte (02:38:29):
It does move.

Jeff Jarvis (02:38:30):
That's what he said

Leo Laporte (02:38:31):
It does. Move.

Jeff Jarvis (02:38:33):
Think is the Italian.

Leo Laporte (02:38:36):
What do you got coming up on hands on photography, Mr. An pr

Ant Pruitt (02:38:41):
Well, actually I am doing a demo of this camera right here.

Leo Laporte (02:38:45):
Uhoh, is that the new Sony? Nope.

Ant Pruitt (02:38:49):
Oh, LUS. This is the Lu S five Mark two. And I'm gonna share my thoughts on that. And you are right, Sony did re re announce a new camera today to Zv Zv one, ZV Zv E V one, which is a full frame version of the previous Zv line. And I haven't taken too much of a thorough look at it just yet, but that was announced today and maybe I get my hands on one and play with it. But that's what's coming up this week on the show is the limits S five Mark two. And also, sir since you're gonna be gone, I'm gonna be sitting in your chair on Ask Yes, you are Tech guys with Mr. Micah, Sergeant, all of you TWiG folks listening right now. Feel free to send your video questions to us. Just shoot an email to ask the tech and maybe we'll give you a holler on Sunday.

Leo Laporte (02:39:41):
That's awesome. Yeah, you're filling in for me in all over the place and I appreciate you doing that. Thank you. Thank you,

Ant Pruitt (02:39:47):
Anne. My pleasure, sir.

Leo Laporte (02:39:48):
We do This Week in Google every Wednesday round about 2:00 PM Pacific, 5:00 PM Eastern, 2100 utc. You can watch us There's also an audio feed if you wanna listen live. If you're watching or listening live chat Club members can of course chat in the Discord. If you're not a club member, twit tv slash club twit Thank you. Club members after the fact on demand ad supported versions are at the website, twit tv slash TWiG. You can also there's a YouTube channel you can find and watch, and it's a good way to share little clips if you wanna do that. Best way to find all of our YouTube channels is go to the main channel, You'll see links to all the other shows channels there. And of course, the easiest thing to do, the thing I would do right now before you forget, is find your favorite podcast, player Pockets, overcasts, Google or Apple Casts, and subscribe to This Week in Google. That way you don't have to think about it, it just downloads automatically. You can listen to it whenever you're in the mood for silliness. Is, let's see, is next week is Stacy, no, Stacy's not gonna be back or is she mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. She is. Nope. Nope. Next

Ant Pruitt (02:40:57):
Week is just like today Sends,

Leo Laporte (02:40:59):
Sends me Mr. Laporte. Okay. And Micah's gonna,

Ant Pruitt (02:41:02):
We're gonna have Mr. Micah, Sergeant Esther host.

Leo Laporte (02:41:04):
Great. And then the following week, Jason, Jeff, Stacy, and aunt. So Jason Howell will take over, in fact, for two weeks, and then I'll be back on the 26th. If you do wanna follow my Peregrinations I am posting on a site called Polar Steps. If you go to polar, plural, Lisa and I have used Polar Steps in the past to kind of, it, it uses your phone's gps to figure out where you are and takes pictures and puts it all together into a, a triptic or a travel map. It's open to the public. I know it's crazy. I probably shouldn't do it, but <laugh>, I <laugh> I will be post, I don't wanna post on Instagram. I wanna at least, I'll probably will post on Instagram. So follow her on Instagram. I'm not posting on Twitter. I probably won't even post a mass on their Pixel fed. They'll just go here and you can, if you wanna follow along, you can see where we are at any given moment. And try not to jump us as we leave the hotel, though. I would appreciate that.

Ant Pruitt (02:42:06):
<Laugh>. And what was that link again? So I'll make sure we have it in the shows notes here. Polars

Leo Laporte (02:42:09):
Polar You know what, I will put it in the as my pick not Stroop waffles. I will, I will replace the Stroop Waffles with Porter Steps. Yeah, it's kind of a cool site. And then you can make a book afterwards and stuff. I'd be actually curious what you, what you think of it. I'll make some books so you can see what the quality is. Follow Lisa and Leo as they travel. Have a wonderful couple of weeks, folks. I'll be back in a little less in a month, miss. I will miss you all, but I will be rested and ready to go in my brain. I'm hoping will be a little more functional when I'm back. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next time on this weekend. Google. Bye-bye.

Jason Howell (02:42:54):
If you love all things Android, well, I've got a show for you to check out. It's called All About Android, and I'll give you three guesses. What we talk about. We talk about Android, the latest news, hardware, apps, we answer feedback. It's me, Jason Howell, Ron Richards wins with Dow and a whole cast of awesome characters talking about the operating system that we love. You can find all about Android at

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