This Week in Google 685, Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for TWiG, This Week in Google. Ants here, Jeff's here, Stacey has the week off. But good news. Cathy Gellis, attorney at law is joining us just off the Supreme Court. She was there this morning to hear arguments in a very important copyright case, she'll give us an update. We'll also talk about the new Pixel 7 and the Pixel Watch, why you may or may not want it. And the Meta Quest Pro, it sounds like a pharmaceutical, but it's actually the latest in VR from Meta. But who wants it? We'll find out next on TWiG!

Leo Laporte (00:00:46):
This is TWiG, This Week in Google, Episode 685 recorded Wednesday, October 12th, 2022. Only on Thursdays. This Week in Google is brought to you by: Secure Works. Are you ready for inevitable cyber threats? Secure Works detects evolving adversaries and defends against them with a combination of security, analytics, and threat intelligence directly from their own counter threat unit. Visit secureworks.com/twit to get a free trial of Taegis extended detection and response, also known as XDR. And by Cachefly. Deliver your video on the network with the best throughput and global reach, making your content infinitely scalable. Go live in hours, not days. Learn more at cachefly.com.

Leo Laporte (00:01:40):
It's time for TWiG this Week in Google, the show we talk about, well, pretty much everything but Google. Ladies and gentleman, I give you Ant Pruitt. He's got, we got a card for you. Ant <laugh>. Woo. What kind? Ant? Ant welcome from TV's, Hands-On Photography and how you be, sir. I'm doing great. Community manager in our club, TWiT. We also have Jeff Jarvis, the Leonard Tow professor for journalistic innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York. His card's got a little more written on it. And this is very good news. I have a card for our special guest, Stacey Broke her toe last night. So Cathy, Catherine R Gellis, Esquire here from cgcouncil.com. Former internet professional webmaster, now assistant clients with legal issues related to the digital age. Hi Cathy.

Cathy Gellis (00:02:41):
Hello.

Leo Laporte (00:02:42):
You're in DC.

Cathy Gellis (00:02:44):
I'm in DC.

Leo Laporte (00:02:45):
And why are you in DC?

Cathy Gellis (00:02:48):
You know, I guess if you're a lawyer, it's good to go where it gets made sometimes. So, you know, see it up close.

Leo Laporte (00:02:53):
You went to the sausage factory in person!

Cathy Gellis (00:02:55):
I went to the Sausage Factory, yes.

Leo Laporte (00:02:57):
And I understand that today you were in the Supreme Court.

Cathy Gellis (00:03:03):
Yes, There was a, an important copyright hearing at the US Supreme Court, and I wrote an amicus brief in the case. And it's interesting to kind of see it live as they talk about really important issues and what they're going to do about it that are going to affect all our lives.

Leo Laporte (00:03:19):
I bet you Cathy knows how to pronounce searchiary. I knew. Yeah, <laugh>. I know.

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:29):
Amicus. Amicus. I, I think I've been saying Amicus. It's

Leo Laporte (00:03:31):
Amicus. Amicus.

Cathy Gellis (00:03:32):
I think it could be either. Some people seem to say it's the way that I, I don't pronounce it and they're just wrong. So <laugh>, I, I think you can have whatever your own natural accent provides last

Leo Laporte (00:03:44):
Time just

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:44):
Doing a a, a brief get you a, a ticket into the Supreme

Cathy Gellis (00:03:48):
Court. No, no, it did not. I had to stand on line. I got there at 6:00 AM and they only took 19 of the Supreme Court barred people. But I got in but my friends who got there at 8:00 AM didn't in previous years, I'd actually camped out for a case I camped out for Areo cuz they were line sitters and it was so competitive that Oh wow. We were afraid that we wouldn't get in. But then after that case Justice Scalia said, Enough of this nonsense, your licensed by this court stop hiring line standers. So you had to do your own standing. And lawyers are lazy. Wouldn't say that we just, we just

Jeff Jarvis (00:04:22):
Show. So you're barred for the Supreme Court. Have

Leo Laporte (00:04:24):
You argued

Cathy Gellis (00:04:24):
With the, Which is I could, in theory, it's also how I made to file amicus briefs there. If I weren't barred in that court, I couldn't be the attorney that did that. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:04:34):
So the Onion is barred at the Supreme Court? They had to hire

Cathy Gellis (00:04:38):
Somebody. No, the Onion had council that was barred in the Supreme Court to file it. I mean they may be barred by the Supreme Court at some point, given, you know, after that brief. But

Leo Laporte (00:04:48):
We should probably explain not barred in, Barred in means you, it's like passing the bar. You're a, you're, you're a, is there a test? How do you get barred into the Supreme Court?

Cathy Gellis (00:04:57):
No, for so you get licensed by state and they're the ones who in theory are testing, are doing the full test of moral character. And in theory, you know, your competence to be a lawyer, that's what people take the bar exam for. Open question about whether it's actually an effective test of competence. But that's what they do. But then different courts in the federal system do their own admissions. If you wanna practice before them, I think the individual district courts and for them you sometimes just need to pay a fee. Ah, sometimes you pay a fee and add a little bit on a form. Sometimes you need references. And then for the US Supreme Court, it's basically the same thing. It was mostly a form, but you had to have been in practice, I think three years, although maybe five. And you had to get people that signed your form kind of as movements. So like they moved to have you admitted in the US Supreme Court. So it's a little more formal, but basically all you have to do is be a lawyer, not get in trouble and fill out a form. But if you do get in trouble after you can get kicked out. My understanding is that Bill Clinton, after he was impeached, got kicked out of the Supreme Court bar cuz they didn't like that nonsense. He wasn't a good moral character, et cetera. Interesting.

Jeff Jarvis (00:06:06):
Do you get a bumper sticker or anything? You get a little something to put on your desk?

Cathy Gellis (00:06:12):
They sent a certificate. A lot of the court sent a certificate. My certificate I think if I remember is quite, is sort of large cuz it's the US Supreme Court <laugh>. But the interesting thing was there were two people that had to get signed. One I think was a reference, but the other was called the Moven. And I got my con law professor from law school, the really scary kind of paper Chase con law professor. He signed mine and for some reason that name, then when I got my certificate, his name is like, and the person who moved you is, And so my Conlaw professor is on my Supreme Court certificate for that's all cool. Having moved me into the Supreme, that was kind of cool. I actually thought that was like an accident. That was a nice accident that that happened. So yeah, mostly paperwork. But you know, sometimes lawyering is all about the paperwork. So you know, you, you

Jeff Jarvis (00:06:59):
Do paperwork, you chose it.

Cathy Gellis (00:07:01):
Oh well, not for the paperwork, but yes. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (00:07:03):
<Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:07:07):
So why you were there for the Andy Warhol case. Tell us why you're there.

Cathy Gellis (00:07:14):
So there were a couple of cases losing track of time. Now time, how does it work? A couple years ago, a case in the second circuit coming out of New York and a case also that was similarly troubling that ended up coming out of the ninth Circuit. What these cases essentially did was decide that subsequent works didn't count as fair uses, and if they didn't count as fair uses, then they would be infringing copyright. So both cases ended up at, they both won at the district court where both of these subsequent uses that used another work were found to be fair uses of the work and the ninth circuit. This was the case involving the Dr. Seuss mashup with the Oh, The Places Will Boldly Go where somebody wrote a book that took Star Trek imagery and combined it with Dr. Seuss motifs.

Leo Laporte (00:08:07):
Bad taste, but not illegal

Cathy Gellis (00:08:09):
<Laugh>. Actually it was, it was really well done. Oh good. Actually I think it was quite clever. Like, you know, really kind of really united those things and actually a really meaningful way that added new meaning. And that's important. We'll get back to new meaning. Meanwhile there was also a case in New York, and this was less recent, but there had been a photograph of Andy Warhol taken in like the early eighties that then ended up that Andy Warhol then ended up adapting and turning into the really famous Prince p r i n t s of Prince p r i n c e. This is a very good, it

Leo Laporte (00:08:46):
Was a picture of Prince, not Andy Warhol, it was a, this picture from the eighties, Lynn Goldsmith took the picture and this is Andy Warhol's portrait. Even before then, wasn't there a, a AP sued Shepard Fairey over this famous Obama Hope poster because an AP photographer took the picture. That one was settled out of court.

Cathy Gellis (00:09:08):
Yeah, that one hit a weird roadblock in discovery and never really got decided on the merits. Everyone kind of bailed out of that case, so it wasn't really figured out. But there was an important case in, I guess the late eighties called Campbell v. Acuff-Rose, And this was a really important fair use case that the Supreme Court considered. This is the one where, and now I'm blanking on the name. It was, was it b so it, there was a takeoff of Pretty Woman that was a very raunchy takeoff parody of

Leo Laporte (00:09:41):
It was 2 Live Crew. Yeah,

Cathy Gellis (00:09:42):
2 Live Crew. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a really important case because Roy Orbison or his estate really didn't like that. It was, you know, it's not a, it's a kind of crude song and they didn't like the, they called it infringement and they didn't like that it was messing with their, with their song. And the Supreme Court said, No, you know, we really need to create space to have new meanings and new things come out. This has to be a fair use. But you know, that case can really only reach the merits for what the facts of that case were challenging it for. But it had a lot of, it had language for how to think about a situation like that. And then it had some other helpful DTA that sort of helped guide courts in the future to find that other subsequent uses, even when it used Identifiable Source works could still be considered fair use one of the

Leo Laporte (00:10:30):
Tests. So in

Cathy Gellis (00:10:30):
Theory that's what

Leo Laporte (00:10:30):
It was in the, in the 2 Live Crew case was did it have a cause commercial harm to Roy Orison? Would it cause loss of sales to Pretty Woman? And the Supreme Court said it's extremely unlikely. <Laugh>,

Cathy Gellis (00:10:47):
I mean that that is true. So fair use built into the statute has a multifactor test. It's not necessarily exhaustive, but there are four factors that used to be thought of at common law, but then they kind of baked them in the statute when they updated the copyright statute for the 1976 Act. And I don't, I should pull them up. I don't, I

Leo Laporte (00:11:06):
Have in front of it,

Cathy Gellis (00:11:07):
But, okay, so there's four factors that you look at and you kind of analyze, okay? So you have the original work and then you have the subsequent work. And let's say especially that the subsequent work is, you know, somehow hearkening back and identifiable weighted the original, that may still be fair use, but you're gonna decide if it's fair use by thinking through those factors. So that's great, but it's also really, really, really fuzzy. Yeah. And

Leo Laporte (00:11:34):
Fact fair use is, is as somebody once said, merely the right to hire a lawyer that Lawrence Lessig. Yeah. Larry Lessig. So the four cases are the, the purpose of the use, whether it's for commercial for instance, or nonprofit or educational, that's number one. Number two, the nature of the copyrighted work. Number three, the amount and substantiality of the portion used. And number four, the effect of, of the use upon the potential market or value of the copyrighted work. And that's yes. Was that fourth test the Supreme Court said, Yeah, you didn't, you didn't cost Roy Orbison anything. I'd heard also that the, the parody defense. So for instance, when Weird Al makes a parody song, it has to parody the original maker of the song. It can't be devoid of that, it can't, has to refer back to the original. But that's what's

Cathy Gellis (00:12:32):
Know more for certain when, because some of it has to do with commentary like fair use

Leo Laporte (00:12:40):
Theory of

Cathy Gellis (00:12:40):
Information of First Amendment rights to have free expression, Right? And copyright and theory impinges on that. But one of the ways that copyright is not in compliant with the First Amendment is to make sure that you still have free expression around it. And fair use helps preserve the ability to freely express other things. It's there to help vindicate that other expression can happen. So if you're commenting on the original, then that tends to be more clearly. And there's, there's precedent I think on point about this to say, well, okay, you know, we can't make that illegal because then we have a First Amendment problem. But that doesn't necessarily mean that other types of expression couldn't be legal too. But sometimes it's not tested. Or then you get these cases that I'm describing where all of a sudden, like the district court looked at them and looked at these subsequent uses and said, Yes, they're fair use.

Cathy Gellis (00:13:29):
But on appeal, the appeals courts said, now we don't think so. They basically reran the four factor test and reran it in a way that looked at the subsequent use and said, Nope, nope, nope. We don't see clear to do this. This must be infringing. And so this case at the US Supreme Court was, hang on, it doesn't look like the way, and I bring up the ninth Circuit case cuz it was similar and I think really troubling and in a way that I think highlights what was troubling about this one somewhat more clearly. But in this particular case where the Second Circuit said, Nope, Andy Warhol must have infringed essentially when he, his prints were not his Prince Prince were not fair used. All of a sudden there's a question about is that decision right? But also what would it mean for any subsequent uses?

Cathy Gellis (00:14:16):
Because the logic they used in running those four factor tests would shut down an awful lot of other expression that happens to build on other works. And you really need to be able to build on other works to be able to say new things. So that would create a really chilling effect. So what was before the court today was, hang on a second. Did the second Circuit get it right? And they were talking most particularly about the fourth factor, but also the first factor with new, with the purpose and character of the work and questions about whether the new work brought new meaning. And if yes, what is the significance that it did bring new meaning? And how should that affect

Jeff Jarvis (00:14:54):
Why it's come so many

Leo Laporte (00:14:54):
Years? Let me, yeah. Let me give you the facts of the case so you understand that. Thank you. The picture was taken in 1981 for the by photographer Goldsmith before he was famous. Three years later, Vanity Fair commissioned Andy Warhol for a series of six silk screen prints as well as two pencil sketches based on the original photograph. And published them however, <laugh> the Vanny Fair had obtained a license from Goldsmith. But she said she was not aware that Warhol created other images that were not licensed. In fact, she only became aware after Kdi Nast used a different image once she had not licensed as part of a 2016 Prince tribute Melia Ats death. Of course, Warhol died in 87 <laugh>. The relevant works are held by the Andy Warhol Foundation, which had given permission to Vanity Fair to use the image in 2016. But Goldsmith was not created. So that's when she sued In 2019, a federal judge ruled in favor of the Andy Warhol Foundation saying the images were transformative because while Goldsmith's photos showed a vulnerable human being, the Warhol prince depicted an iconic larger than life figure, actually that sounds like they were ruling against the foundation. I think that NBC got this one wrong. <Laugh> ruled against the foundation. The foundation then sought Supreme Court Review after the second court ruled in favor of the photographer in March, 2021. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Goldsmith,

Jeff Jarvis (00:16:42):
Wait, wait. The foundation holds the Warhol version. And they were saying the Warhol version was in fact a larger than life image. So they were in favor of the foundation against Goldsmith.

Leo Laporte (00:16:55):
Ah, yes, you're right. And then in, in under review, the second Supreme Second Circuit said, no, no the photographer wins the appeals court, faulted the district court for focusing on the artist's intent, saying that the judge should not assume the role of art critic. That's

Jeff Jarvis (00:17:14):
The interesting part.

Leo Laporte (00:17:15):
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Instead, a judge must examine whether the new work is of a completely different character to the original. It must quote at a bare minimum comprised something more than the imposition of another artist's style on the primary. But that's,

Jeff Jarvis (00:17:31):
That's part of the comment.

Leo Laporte (00:17:32):
So then,

Jeff Jarvis (00:17:33):
Then

Leo Laporte (00:17:34):
That's nonsensical. That takes us to the Supreme Court. Cathy, what did your aka brief say?

Cathy Gellis (00:17:39):
Our amicus brief, I did this for the Copi Institute which is the think tank. Half of Tector is we base two big points. One was to remind the court that copyright law has to comport with the First Amendment. So the first half of the thing was talking about you know, if copyright law is all of a sudden saying no to free expression or somehow not helping further the progress of arts and sciences, which the Constitution says is what copyright is for, then you've got a problem. And so if you're looking at a case where all of a sudden you're saying no to further expression, that suggests that your cop, if that's the way copyright law is being interpreted, you have a problem. And then when we talked further about the reason I talk about the Dr. Sue's case is I was so alarmed by that case in the Ninth Circuit basically saying, How dare you create something new that the original copyright holder for all Dr.

Cathy Gellis (00:18:37):
Seuss works is not, didn't license you to do. And just how foreclosing that would be if the original copyright holder could say no to things. And we also pointed out that, you know, it's different in this case, in this Warhol case where Warhol, the subsequent user is dead and the photographer is still alive. But in the Dr. Sue's case, it was the other way around. The estate of a dead person was saying no to the new creative work of a live person. And if that's something that copyright law says is okay, I think we have to think twice about it, especially given the really long terms that copyright has. That's a problem I think if that, if that can happen. And so we pointed out how that fact alone helps illustrate what happens when you chill the ability of other people to rebuild things and create something that might never have existed if the original creator, I mean a dead person is never gonna do it, but maybe they wouldn't have licensed things anyway.

Cathy Gellis (00:19:34):
The Ninth Circuit sort of took the view of like, well, as a copyright holder, they could have decided to license to a Star Trek mashup or a, I don't know, a Mickey Mouse mashup or any sort of other mashup that they wanted that they chose to license, but either nobody knocked on their door or they weren't interested in doing the deal. So none of those mashups happened, especially not one with this particular expression in charm until this artist independently thought, I can make a fair use by combining these two things and creating something new. The district court said that looks good under the four factor fair use test and relying on the camp versus ACA Rose test. And then the ninth Circuit just sort of said, Nope, nope, you are too greatly cutting into the exclusive rights of the copyright holder. And that's something that came up today because copyright also, one of the exclusive rights that a copyright holder has is to control derivative works.

Cathy Gellis (00:20:28):
And there's a tension in the copyright act between a derivative work and the fair uses of works which may be transformative in their meanings. Right. And so what is the difference between a transformative work and a derivative work? Because one would be legal as a fair use and the other one would not. And you know, this is actually when I was learning copyright law was really confusing and made me very frustrated like how do I learn this? Like what it, how do I get my head around that, that tension and the tension is sitting in the statute. But what the Warhol side was arguing a little bit is that the text does sort of say that like the derivative work right, is subject to fair use. The, you know, the fair use rules as well. And then they kind of point out what would it mean to subsequent free expression if cuz everybody somehow references a source work somehow what

Leo Laporte (00:21:18):
Would happen. Yeah. Wal Disney didn't base a snow white on nothing. And of course famously Walt Disney then copyrighted so no one else can make a snow white. The brother's grim, I guess didn't get their day in court. So today was the day for oral arguments in front of the Supreme Court. That's why you were there. Among other things we learned that Clarence Thomas was the Prince fan who knew

Cathy Gellis (00:21:42):
On, but not necessarily anymore. Only on Thursdays apparently

Leo Laporte (00:21:46):
<Laugh>.

Cathy Gellis (00:21:48):
So, so the thing unfolded where he started with a hypothetical of let's say I were a Prince fan, and then he says under his breath, like, which I was back in the eighties and then I, somebody I think just Kegan kind of piped up and no longer. And so the everybody in the room laughed and then he kind of pulled himself together and said, Well, only on Thursdays. So on Thursdays he's, he

Leo Laporte (00:22:12):
Still princip. It's interesting cause you don't usually think of the Supreme Court as having any banter during these oral arguments, but they do actually. 

Cathy Gellis (00:22:19):
You know, one of my takeaways I was telling somebody is I'm actually really glad I went as somebody who practices before the court because I've been really angry with them and for good reason. Their jurisprudence has been frightening. The way they've been comporting themselves has been disturbing. It, they've, they've really sort of taken themselves down a notch in, in this steam and what they're worthy. And also, but what happens to our victim of law if it's not like, you know, we talked at the beginning of the show, but what it was like, you know, getting admitted to the Supreme Court bar, the first thing they do before every oral argument is there's some people who actually get admitted on the spot. Like their papers are all in, but then the court verbally grant that their motions be be granted and then they're given the oath on the spot and there's like all this dignity built into it.

Cathy Gellis (00:23:06):
So when they're kind of cutting corners and changing the rules and this, that and the other thing, it's really heartbreaking almost on a religious level of like, no, this is something we really kind of revere and need to revere. So my attitude has been very, very cynical, growingly cynical. I kind of appreciated being in the room and being reminded of the human beings. I mean, I don't think it redeems the systemic things that are so troubling, but I think it made me not hate them quite so much. And I think I needed to be reminded that yeah, that's good. These are people and that my skills and my writing could still potentially speak to these people. They have ways of thinking about things. And my job as a practitioner is figuring out how to convey something that they can hear.

Leo Laporte (00:23:48):
They're not gods although they have godlike power in some mm-hmm. <Affirmative> cases. Yeah.

Cathy Gellis (00:23:54):
But I was actually surprised by the report. They, you know, it, they

Leo Laporte (00:23:58):
Seem to be collegial, very human. They seem to get along. They

Cathy Gellis (00:24:00):
Did. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:24:01):
Interesting. Cathy,

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:02):
I saw a tweet today and I couldn't get in the context of it. So I just saw somebody, Oh my God, the government's arguing against fair use. Did,

Leo Laporte (00:24:12):
That's not true at all.

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:14):
It's not true at all. There's

Leo Laporte (00:24:16):
No go. It's a debate about what is fair use. Right.

Cathy Gellis (00:24:20):
I, well splitting the, the baby a little bit, I think Jeff is actually more correct. Really, really, they basically, they basically took the, the photographer side and their model for, for how they did it, I think was troubling. I'm missing, it's been too long since I've seen it, but Mark Lemley kind of summed it up in two lines of like, if this is what they were arguing, some fundamental thing is missing. But I, but overall, and I can't remember what that was even though it was piy incorrect, but I think the model that they want is really one that closes the door on an awful lot of fair uses. And they were explicitly taking the side of the photographer and not on the side of the derivative work. And I think some of the biggest argument was, well cuz one of the problems is that this is involving photography and photography has such a limited runway in terms of how it can be monetized and it's so easy to copy.

Cathy Gellis (00:25:15):
And photographers were writing like really panicked amicus briefs saying like, if you grant this is fair use photography is dead. And I think that might be overstating it. And I think there's still monetization models and this, that and the other thing. But it is a very difficult medium to protect, especially if you have expansive fair use so that that goes, that's true. And I think the government's position was, but we've got some licensing models that provide monetization that creates income. And if you have too much fair use, then those licensing models will fall apart and the economics of photography will change. And I can see the alarm and the government wanting to sort of, you know, protect photographers. But I think they're trying to protect the, the photographers at the expense of photographers themselves because it's at the expense of anybody who would like to make subsequent expression. And sometimes that's photographers that, you know, everybody needs fair use mm-hmm. <Affirmative> to be able to sort of speak because we always reference it some way, something that came before. And the longer a copyright term, the more expansive a copyright seems to be, the more exclusive rights and the more powerful those rights the harder it is for anybody to speak. And I think that's dangerous. I think they are taking the long wrong view and needed to take a more global view of we gotta keep people talking and if we wanna keep people creating,

Jeff Jarvis (00:26:31):
Here's a dumb question. Why,

Leo Laporte (00:26:33):
Hold on, hold on, hold on. Couple of this points to be in case one is that oral arguments aren't always the best way to understand the justices point of view on this. Right?

Cathy Gellis (00:26:46):
True. It's very difficult to read the tea leaves off of an oral argument.

Leo Laporte (00:26:50):
Second point, you can listen for yourself, the Supreme Court publishes the audio, not the video, but the audio from oral arguments. And this one's already up of all things and hour 42,

Cathy Gellis (00:27:00):
This term was live, it's actually, I mean the pandemic made a mess of so much, but one of the benefits of the pandemic mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, is that this court used to not have any live broadcast or live of anything of any of their hearings. And they started doing live sel cast only sound, not video, but they started doing that during the pandemic. And they just really last week, this week opened up to having the public in, in the court for oral arguments again because it had still been closed for the pandemic. And there was a question of, well, when people can come back in, are they gonna turn off the the SEL cast and know they kept it on? And this is to the court's credit. Absolutely. I think it's really important and I hope they, they keep it going. And the fact that they did so far makes me hope that they will. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:27:45):
Or

Jeff Jarvis (00:27:45):
Somebody forgot to turn it off

Leo Laporte (00:27:46):
Supreme, Supreme

Cathy Gellis (00:27:48):
Court? No, I think they did it on purpose. They, they did acknow just cause they

Leo Laporte (00:27:50):
Were doing it. If you go to Supreme court.gov and click the oral arguments link at the top, you'll see all of the weeks oral arguments so far. And you can listen to it including today's Okay, Jeff, sorry, I need to

Cathy Gellis (00:28:02):
Wake up at 6:00 AM

Leo Laporte (00:28:04):
Yeah, this is,

Cathy Gellis (00:28:04):
This is silly.

Leo Laporte (00:28:06):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:06):
I just had a dumb question, Cathy. In a case like this where it's one party against the other why is the government a party? And is the government always a party?

Cathy Gellis (00:28:16):
It's not a party. It was, I don't actually know what's, it might be an intervener, but I don't know. What essentially happens is, I mean, sometimes I

Leo Laporte (00:28:26):
Get the government, so Andy won Hall Foundation versus Goldsmith. It's, it's like foundation versus the photographer.

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:33):
So why was the government making arguments today?

Cathy Gellis (00:28:35):
Sometimes the court actually asked the government to lodge a view, and I don't remember if it was done on invitation this time or, or there might have been motion that the government wrote its brief and then say, we wanna, we wanna submit it. The other thing that

Leo Laporte (00:28:49):
Was for the arguer for the government was Yra Dubin, who was Aika Kii. So it was essentially another amicus.

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:56):
Okay.

Cathy Gellis (00:28:56):
What they got to do oral argument. And that is, they had to do that on an ask. But I think it was unopposed. I think if the government shows up and says we'd like to speak to it, it it did it. What

Leo Laporte (00:29:06):
Did what did Dubin say? What was her position?

Cathy Gellis (00:29:12):
Well, the government took the same position that it took in the briefs, which is they were very worried about the fair use test. If fair use could be found the way Warhol was arguing, they were afraid of the consequences. They did not wanna test that was that broad. 

Leo Laporte (00:29:28):
Oh, that's

Cathy Gellis (00:29:28):
Interesting. And so they were much more limited. They were somewhat differing from what the photographer say was saying in terms of what the test should be. But but basically they Hollywood law more narrow than, than a broader test.

Jeff Jarvis (00:29:41):
This is more of the, they took the Hollywood side versus the Silicon Valley side.

Leo Laporte (00:29:45):
I'm, I'm reading Lawrence Hurley's article in for nbc. He said that the justices seem to focus on purpose of the images Warhol's image versus Goldsmith's image. And that the fact that they were both used in the same way to illustrate articles about the singer seemed to be an issue that, that Judge Soto Myar said. Does the fact that the images have the same market, is that enough to destroy your defense? Justice Gorsuch said the Prince images were quite different from Warhol's images of Campbell soup cans because the difference in purpose in the latter instance was obvious he wasn't trying to sell Campbell soup

Cathy Gellis (00:30:33):
<Laugh>. So Gorsuch said that, okay, the Campbell's, cuz they're using Warhol imagery as an example. So Warhol has the famous Campbell soup can sitting in a, you know, a picture by itself. And war. And Gorsuch basically said, Well, that's an easier case to find the fair use because the original label is designed to sell soup. And this purpose is designed to, you know, antagonize the consumer state or something like that. Like, you know, you're not using them, they don't have the same function essentially, but they're looking at essentially two pictures of prints and they're like, they have the same function in that they are to convey a picture of print. And in this case, more specifically in the, in the, in a magazine,

Leo Laporte (00:31:16):
Although Chief Justice Roberts said, no, it's a different style, it's a different purpose. One is a commentary on modern society, the other is to show what Prince looks like. So he argued again, Oh wow. You can't, can't tell read too much into the tea leaves here sometimes. Well, but that's what the Supreme Court does. <Laugh>. Wow. That's

Cathy Gellis (00:31:37):
Their, Well, so, so Roberts was sort of getting back to what the District court found. The district court made the point, which I think is valid, which is if you look at those two pictures and you had that up on the screen, and I think it, it illustrates it, the original picture that Goldsmith took portrays Prince as kind of as a different sort of person with a different sort of persona, then the adapted one that Warhol did. So what Warhol foundation's argument is, is they're not conveying the same thing the way Warhol treated that image in creating his transformative work transformed it in a way where it said something else about Prince that the original one hadn't said. And then the question they were saying that, well, the test is that the purpose is that they are saying something different about Prince. Like yes, they're both pictures.

Cathy Gellis (00:32:26):
Yes, they're both pictures that may be used in a magazine to illustrate an article about Prince, but they are saying different things. And I think one argument that got left on the, on the table although the Warhol sort of side sort of intimated at it, is that, you know, they're not, Yes, they're competing with each other, but they're not competing with each other as literal copies of each other. They're competing with each other, like not for price and sale term or licensing terms or this, that and the other thing. They're essentially competing each other for, if you're doing an article about Prince, which is the image that you think conveys, the thing about Prince that you wish to have convey is to compliment your article. Like, there's

Jeff Jarvis (00:33:06):
So, Well I just have AI in

Cathy Gellis (00:33:07):
That message.

Jeff Jarvis (00:33:08):
I'm sorry, you'll just have AI make one now. I'll just have ai, you know, Dolly, make one and it will be a difference. Which is a question actually, Cathy, was there any discussion in the court today of the remaking mode of online and how art is changing now in a collaborative way of re constant remix?

Cathy Gellis (00:33:28):
I think not, and probably thank goodness if it came up, it did not linger very long. It does not ring a bell. And boy that gives me a headache. But because if we're having enough problems with like, what humans can do, we're not at the point of, well

Jeff Jarvis (00:33:42):
I'm not talking about the ai, I'm not talking about the ai I'm talking about about any old schmo using Instagram to remake something to make a statement. The, the the, the remixing of culture today is on a such a different scale. And if they try to cut off that from anybody, it's one matter to, you know, use a photo you don't have permission for. It's another matter to make a comment on it by your use of it in just the fact that anyone can do that now. And it's not just Vanity Fair it's it's a much broader market.

Cathy Gellis (00:34:13):
Oh, the Warhol Foundation made a point, which is that one of the things that the photographer, and I think even the government may have argued is that everybody, oh, and I think even the second Circuit was that they sort of got stars in their eyes where, oh, it's a Warhol thing, so it must be different. It's special because it's Warhol mm-hmm. <Affirmative> where he is famous and we're looking back on it and that because it was a Warhol thing, we're gonna look at it differently. And of course we're gonna assume that there's a different meaning. And so there's sort of bootstrapping on the fame to decide that there's different meaning. And the Whirlpool Foundation sort of pointed out of like, no, it's not about us. This is really about the unknown artist who wants to create work that remixes and reuses something that came before and amen.

Cathy Gellis (00:34:56):
To have the fame to be able to like all of a sudden like, Oh, because you don't know his name. So if you hear Joe Schmoe's new art, you're not gonna presume, oh, it's something new and different. You're just gonna know it's a subsequent work and that you not gonna have that, that reputation to enhance the concept of meaning. Yes. Yes. And he's like, so we can't be dependent on this reputation because what our job is, is to protect those new artists who someday may be the Warhols, but they're never gonna be the Warhols because they're gonna be too scared to ever make any work because this is because it won't be enough that it has enough, a different meaning because it'll still be identifi as the original one. And then both the Goldsmith and even the government were making this point, which is that, well, fair use is an affirmative defense, which is getting back to that lesson quote, that fair use is the right to hire a lawyer. That's not useful if you're a creator. If you have to hire a lawyer or to defend yourself and hope that a court sees it your way, you're not gonna produce that.

Leo Laporte (00:35:53):
We deal with that all the time, is there's a chilling effect. And we're always here, always aware of that chilling effect because I don't want to have to defend it in court, even though I firmly believe most of what we do is fair use because we're news and we're covering news. And let me ask you as a photographer, cause I think, you know, you have a dog in this hunt as a photographer. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, when I look at this is from the scotus blog images. And so this is on the right is the actual Lynn Goldsmith 1981 photograph of Prince. On the left is the Vanity Fair cover in which they're using that photograph essentially modified by Andy Warhol. They did pay print Lynn Goldsmith, I think 400 bucks for the right to do that. It was only the other images that she saw later that cost her to sue. What's your reaction to this? Does this I mean, are you naturally on the side of the photographer?

Ant Pruitt (00:36:51):
Yeah. In this instance I'm standing with the photographer

Leo Laporte (00:36:56):
She took this picture. Yeah,

Ant Pruitt (00:36:58):
Right. We, we set rates from client to client. You know, there are portrait photographers out there that will charge X amount of dollars to certain individuals. But if that individual is a, I don't know, CEO of Google is probably gonna charge that person a little bit more because of reach and other places that image can be shown and they want to, we wanna make sure we capitalize properly, offer that. 

Leo Laporte (00:37:22):
How do you feel now if I show you the other images which are much more clearly artworks that weren't licensed and this is what she's suing over, does that change it?

Ant Pruitt (00:37:35):
Nope. That's still my shot. That's, that's a derivative of my capture. You didn't capture this. Yeah, that's, that's how I look at it. Yeah. And we were talking about the AI earlier. I thought the AI had had some type of fences in place that

Leo Laporte (00:37:51):
No, it doesn't tried

Ant Pruitt (00:37:53):
To stop from putting, like I can put prints in, but it's not gonna give me an actual picture of prints.

Leo Laporte (00:37:58):
Oh, maybe. But, but the AI

Jeff Jarvis (00:38:00):
Style of a Warhol, you know,

Leo Laporte (00:38:03):
For example, yeah, you could say, I want, I want a drawing of print in the style of war.

Jeff Jarvis (00:38:06):
It's more, it's more of a Warhol. The AI's more about Warhol and taking the style than necessarily and image. Cuz the AI can do a hundred images of prints.

Leo Laporte (00:38:14):
Dolly too is much more careful about images of people and make a, but stable diffusion is not at all. And you can very much with stable diffusion, you get print pictures you could probably get this picture <laugh>. Oh, because

Jeff Jarvis (00:38:27):
The

Leo Laporte (00:38:28):
Question here, it trains on all these images and, and, and it could train on this how much from SCOTUS blog really, you know, it

Ant Pruitt (00:38:34):
Could Yeah. But that's the thing. Training on, on something to have as a background is one thing. Reproducing the exact same image. I think that's problematic. 

Jeff Jarvis (00:38:43):
How close is close

Leo Laporte (00:38:45):
As part of the, And so, and this is, and this is what Cathy was talking about, what about derivative? So you know, Walt Disney didn't make up sleeping beauty. He derived it from the brother's grim. Yeah. Much of we of art is based on previous works of art. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that's how an artist proceeds, You've learned photography by looking a lot of people's photographs. And it could in fact be that some of yours

Ant Pruitt (00:39:09):
Trying to imitate other photographers Exactly.

Leo Laporte (00:39:11):
Look like this exactly how it works. Yeah. Those, that's how it works. So it, and Ben and others, you society sees this and this is why there's limits on copyright. Society sees this as a societal good that things are copyright for a limited period of time, but then enter into the public domain where others can, you know, elaborate on them and become part of the kind of, in fact, this is what Larry Leig was so interested in when he created Creative Commons. He said public domain saying, I'm gonna put this public domain is insufficient, copyright is too much. There needs to be something in between that allows me as a creator to assert certain rights, but to still allow people to create derivative rights. Cathy, am I saying that, do you feel like, is that accurate?

Ant Pruitt (00:40:00):
Creative Commons?

Leo Laporte (00:40:01):
Oh, oh, she disappeared.

Ant Pruitt (00:40:03):
Creative Commons tweeted and i, I dig this tweet and says, even with the Creative Commons license, fair use is key to free expression. Everything builds on other works and copyright depends on, just as you were saying, everything builds on other words and copyright depends on limitations and expectations. So they're hoping that the courts recognize this. In the cases today,

Leo Laporte (00:40:24):
Let me see if I can get a portrait of prints and the style of Andy Warhol

Ant Pruitt (00:40:29):
<Laugh>. I just put it

Leo Laporte (00:40:30):
In. Which one is this? This is Lexi Mid Journey. Yeah. You have Mid Journey. This is this is Lexi and these are all AI generated. That's Brents obviously. Ooh. There's Michael Jackson somehow snuck in. So I mean that, you know, by the way, some of those look

Ant Pruitt (00:40:49):
Really close to being Brent.

Leo Laporte (00:40:51):
One thing that we didn't mention is where are Princes write in all of this? None of this is Oh, gone. They're gone. He has no rights. He let the photographer take the picture and

Cathy Gellis (00:41:00):
Well, he wouldn't have had a copyright in his face. And this is actually also sort of an important point. There's other things that are running through copyright law like merger and the fact that you can't copyright facts. So the basics of what he looked like in theory, the question is how

Leo Laporte (00:41:17):
He doesn't own his likeness,

Cathy Gellis (00:41:19):
Not as a only,

Jeff Jarvis (00:41:20):
Only if it's used for commercial purposes that he doesn't show him

Ant Pruitt (00:41:24):
Up.

Cathy Gellis (00:41:24):
Well that's, that's a completely separate thing that might be Right. A publicity type thing. That's

Jeff Jarvis (00:41:29):
Publicity. Yes.

Cathy Gellis (00:41:30):
There's some really weird things that are happening now that we're starting to take inventory of how much we own about everything because

Leo Laporte (00:41:36):
Of deep fake Yeah. Who

Cathy Gellis (00:41:38):
We, well not just that I'm not necessarily a fan of this. The idea of like divvying up the whole world and that we own the whole world is this is not a model that will scale to accommodate everything we needed to accommodate. But but no, he wouldn't have a copyright in his face. Now there is an open question sometimes with photography of the, the issue is who brought the originality to it? It kind of generally presumed as the photographer, but if the subjects in the picture basically position themselves, stage themselves direct the lighting, like at some point the resulting photograph may not really be the original photographers, it might actually start to be the people in the photo. That's not generally presumed to be the case, but but that is a thing that in theory could happen and copyright would enable.

Cathy Gellis (00:42:23):
But the other point I was getting to is, you know, there's a very factual basis and copyright law is supposed to resist somebody locking up the only way to speak something or facts of something. That that stuff is not supposed to be subject to copyright. And with photography where you've got something that's so realism based cuz essentially what they're arguing got copied here was not the artistry that went into the original photograph, but maybe just the essence of what his face looked like at that pose. And they didn't really discuss that. But I wonder if they should have because they're really sort of saying that goldsmith, so much of what you see was goldsmith's originality and that's maybe an assumption that needs to be tested. But in theory, that got tested at the lower courts. And here they were just sort of kicking around what is the appropriate test that should have been used to look at those four factors and did the sec, did the second circuit get that right?

Leo Laporte (00:43:21):
So we've spent half an hour talking about this. Why should we care?

Cathy Gellis (00:43:26):
Would you like to continue to have free expression

Ant Pruitt (00:43:31):
Care? Let's think about you and Mrs. Leport, y'all go out and and take photographs quite often. Yes. For just for fun. Yes. And let's say that you had the opportunity to recreate that Marilyn Merose scene of her making that pose and the the thing blowing and you snap it and, and it turns out to be an amazing photograph that you captured of Mrs. Leport. Didn't that pose all of a sudden you got somebody knocking on your door? Do you want that?

Leo Laporte (00:44:00):
I think I'd win that case, but I don't want to have to spend the money to defend it.

Cathy Gellis (00:44:04):
Yeah. But I think an is actually is making my argument like you've now in some way made it driven for, now you've made it in a different way than Warhol made this. There is the question that because he had access and it was, it's complicated by, he had licensed access of to this specific original, what does that mean for the purposes of the test? But then the Warhol Foundation pointed out like, well, okay, so you're mad that he used this particular image. Right? But how would it be better if he had just infringed on somebody else's image? Like that can't possibly be the solution. He needed something to make his his his transformative

Leo Laporte (00:44:42):
Work. If I put a purple frock on Mona Lisa

Cathy Gellis (00:44:46):
Oh, they had a Mona Lisa hypo during the hearing. They did actually

Leo Laporte (00:44:49):
Give us the hypo

Cathy Gellis (00:44:50):
Roberts, I'm trying to remember. I remember Justice Roberts, I can't remember what he said. But yeah, I think it had to do with if you've taken the Mona Oh, I think it was Alito, sorry. If you take

Leo Laporte (00:45:04):
It was Alito. Yeah,

Cathy Gellis (00:45:04):
It was a Alito. If if you take the Monona Lisa and you make a very, he's like pretend that the Mona Lisa is still in copyright. If you take the Mona Lisa and you adapt it in some small way where the general public,

Leo Laporte (00:45:19):
Oh, she's frozen. We may never know <laugh>. So Leo, I have, I have it. I actually have it in Lawrence. You have it. Okay. Her lease article, He is how I knew it. Justice Samuel Alito question, how much court should defer to expert witnesses when deciding whether a work shows a different meaning. While an average person might view a copy of DaVinci's Mono Lisa in which the subject wears a different colored dress, an expert in Renaissance art would see it as transformative. Say, Well that, you know, there's no issue. It's not the Mona Lisa you Alito told one of the attorneys. You make it sound simple, but maybe it's not so simple, at least in some cases to determine what is the meaning or message of a work of art. I think actually this this, these oral arguments require, I'm gonna listen to 'em when I get home. Cuz I think quite interesting. Another answer

Jeff Jarvis (00:46:15):
Your question is, is about protecting the public domain and what we can do with that.

Leo Laporte (00:46:21):
And it's so important that the, the commons, the creative commons are preserved because that's how, that's where art comes from. No one creates in a vacuum. We got Cathy, I put up something on line 84 like Cathy No, no, stop. Oh sorry. We'll let Cathy finish her thought.

Cathy Gellis (00:46:34):
<Laugh>, oh sorry. The internet. Ah everyone, So the Mona Lisa hypo was, if it had to do with who is, who's defining new meaning. So the hypo was that you've changed the Mona Lisa ever so slightly where most people don't notice that you have something new and different. But to a Renaissance expert, Oh, that difference is really striking and significant. And they were questioning and the hypo was, is that enough new meaning to to affect the analysis? Because one of the, the big, one of the big sources of tension is how much does new meaning Yeah. What

Leo Laporte (00:47:09):
Matter, what's what's transformative? Yeah. What does that mean? Yeah. Is it enough to on it?

Cathy Gellis (00:47:16):
And is that relevant for the first factor test in particular? Like, is that new meaning the, the argument that the Warhol Foundation was, is that the Second Circuit really excluded the fact that there was new meaning in the, in the subsequent work. Where they think that on that alone it was error to go back down to besought to say no, you have to at least consider it. But then there's still the question of consider it and then what, how dispositive should it be? And the the government and the photographer were arguing not very dispositive, given all the other factors. What is it doing to the market? And ultimately what they were arguing about was purpose of you've still got two pictures that are about prints and that's not different enough cuz they're both still serving the purpose of being pictures of, of prints.

Cathy Gellis (00:48:01):
But the argument on the other side is, but they are fulfilling a different purpose, saying different things about prints. And is that something that should really, you know, pass muster with the first factor. The other thing that they were also getting stuck on, although it's maybe tangential to this is necessity. How much did you need that original? And they never, they, they got lost in that argument a lot. And the government and, and the photographer seemed to be arguing that necessity really needs to be more important of like, Oh, but you, you have to improve that you really needed this picture in order to make the new statement you were trying to make. And but I think that's really chilling. And the Warhol argument the Warhol Foundation was arguing that if that's, of course you need it, you would always need it. You'd always need something. And you know, what do you mean that you'd have to prove that, you know, somehow prove in a defense that no, no, no, this is really the thing and not some other picture that I could have used, even though that other picture might be in copyright and then I'd just be infringing them and we'd be having that case. So I think that's a bit of a reding.

Leo Laporte (00:49:04):
Was the photographer Lynn Goldsmith in the courtroom?

Cathy Gellis (00:49:07):
I was told yes, but I don't know what she looks like. Okay. So I can't quite confirm.

Leo Laporte (00:49:12):
I mean, she obviously she, she has an

Jeff Jarvis (00:49:15):
Interested party.

Leo Laporte (00:49:15):
She's a very interested party. All right. We're gonna end this, but that was,

Jeff Jarvis (00:49:19):
I just mentioned one thing real quick, real quick. Cuz I think your audience, Munia Association Co N u n I A, I put it 180 4, has policy recommendations on copyright 14 other, which I think are very good. Cuz I think we basically, part of what we're doing here is we're reconsidering the nature of copyright as a whole. You know, when it would've started, it did not include news. It did not include magazines, it didn't include a lot of maps, it didn't include a lot of things and how much it's been expanded not only in time, but in scope. It's worthwhile in, in a new age to reconsider the essence of it.

Leo Laporte (00:49:52):
That's this is for the EU particularly, Yeah, they have very different rules in the eu. But I like this paragraph which says to defend and expand public domain protect and promote usage rights, empower creators and their audiences. And I think that's part of this is this tension between creators who wanna pull up the ladder once they've created and new creators who want to come along and say, we want, we wanna work, we wanna,

Jeff Jarvis (00:50:22):
It was never really the creators, What do I learned in research? The

Leo Laporte (00:50:24):
Owners?

Jeff Jarvis (00:50:25):
Yeah. It was, it was

Leo Laporte (00:50:26):
Creating a, a tradeable asset for the owners. And that was always, in fact, that's Corey's point in his choke point capitalism, which is quite good is that copyright is used as a weapon against creators by people like the music publishers and the motion picture industry, not the creators themselves.

Cathy Gellis (00:50:46):
I don't think that for Sharon is really a fan of copyright at this point. <Laugh>, I mean, and quite frankly, it's terrifying to be a songwriter in the ninth Circuit. Like you're just, you know, you're just,

Leo Laporte (00:50:56):
Mike, what a really good post was Mike. I think good post today. He actually won the shape of you copyright case and, and, and was awarded 1.1 million in legal fees. So

Cathy Gellis (00:51:09):
But he's not done. He just got attacked again. Oh.

Leo Laporte (00:51:11):
After today There's another post about it. Another one.

Cathy Gellis (00:51:14):
Yeah. and then like somebody

Leo Laporte (00:51:17):
In 20

Cathy Gellis (00:51:18):
Is sort of like, the catalog doesn't have the value. He thought, I don't know. It such a mess. The second

Leo Laporte (00:51:22):
Post Interesting by Mike. Yeah. Alright, let's take a little break when we come back. Cathy, if you wanna stick around, you're more than welcome to. We're gonna be talking about things like the pixel phone. If, if you want to get home, do you take the Excel home or,

Cathy Gellis (00:51:39):
Oh, I, I'm, no, I'm just in a friend's office and as long as I can stay here and not get locked in, I'm happy to stay here for

Leo Laporte (00:51:45):
A whiled. Love to have you. I'd love to have you Pleasure. Our show today brought to you happy

Cathy Gellis (00:51:49):
The overnight

Leo Laporte (00:51:50):
No, it won't be overnight. I promise you try. In fact, I told it's a new Leo Jeff before the show. We're gonna try to get this thing down under two hours. Sunday we did the longest Twitter ever, I think was three hours, 24 minutes. And so three hours, 24 minutes, sir. Was really hard. Now to take an hour off of that. Who was on? I don't know. I was through half of it. Went to it down <laugh> Thompson and Ben Par. It was a great show actually, but Wow. And that's my problem is when the conversation starts getting good, I I lose track of time and that's not a good thing. So we're gonna, we're gonna try to keep this one on schedule our show today. Brought to you by Secure Works. Secureworks is a leader in cyber security building solutions for security experts by security experts.

Leo Laporte (00:52:37):
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It allows you to customize the approach and the coverage level that you need. Now here's an important bit of information. I want you to write this down. What happens if you've already found an intruder in your system? Believe it or not, there's no need to worry. Just write down this. Number 1-800-BREACHED one 800. Breached that number, whether you're a customer or not, will connect you with the Secure Works Emergency Incident Response Team. They can provide you with immediate assistance 24 7. They're there so they can respond to and remediate a possible cyber incident or data breach. You're not alone at Secure Works. You can learn more about the way today's threat environment is evolving, the risks it could present to your organization. They've got case studies there. They've got reports from their very prestigious counter threat unit and more. Visit secureworks.com/swip. Get a free trial. Ofts xdr secure secureworks.com/twi. Secureworks defending every corner of cyberspace. We think of so much for supporting this week in Google. That was good. We, it was not Google, but it wasn't even on Musk. So it could go, you know, I mean it's exactly, And it wasn't to have our person Supreme Court. I know. I love it. I got

Speaker 6 (00:56:10):
To talk about something else.

Leo Laporte (00:56:11):
<Laugh>. I could bring up Elon Musk, but it's gotten so horrifically horrible. Terrible. No good. Very bad that I don't even, It's ridiculous at this point. It's ridiculous. Let's talk about something happier. The new Pixel seven. I ordered one. It'll be coming tomorrow. I'm sorry to say. I wish I had it for you today. The reviews start coming out, I think. When does the embargo lift chat room? I think somebody said tomorrow morning. We'll start, maybe today. Maybe we'll start seeing the Pixel stuff. Yeah, the Pixel Watch. And I think I'm starting to see Pixel Watch reviews, right? Yeah. I started to see him too. Yeah, I think the watch reviews are out. I'm not sure about this. The, the phone. I have talked to somebody. I guess I can say it. Andy and Naco, who has the Pixel watch. He's embargoed.

Leo Laporte (00:57:00):
He can say he has it. He can show it to us. He did yesterday on that very quickly. Can hold up the phone. It was lifted this morning. Okay. So I'll look for Andy's pictures. He said, I could tell you the pictures are incredible. I can't show 'em to you yet. So let me see if he's posted them on his Instagram. Cuz he was very Twitter now. Yeah, he was very bullish about the images he was getting. Is that the main reason to consider getting it? Yeah, I mean, at this point otherwise it's a phone. It's a phone. Well, actually I shouldn't say that because Google, unlike Apple, which really never talks about phones at the event on Thursday, spent a lot of time talking about the phone. Phone. Yeah, you're right. You know, they have some new technologies, which as far as we know, will come down to the Pixel six at least at some point as a feature update. But they, what do they call it? Clear, clear talk. Clear, clear tone. They have some new features to make the sound quality better they have. Let's see. Let me see if I can find you know, it's so funny cuz here's a review from nine to five. Google, camera, camera, camera, camera, battery, <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:58:17):
That's

Ant Pruitt (00:58:17):
What matters with all

Leo Laporte (00:58:18):
Phones to me. Yeah, it is. It really is. But they, I think they announce a number of really good phone features for the Pixel seven. Lemme see if I can, I didn't actually bookmark those. Let's see if I can find them. I wish

Cathy Gellis (00:58:34):
Smallness was a thing.

Leo Laporte (00:58:35):
Smallness, you and Stacy both say they has floppy loop. You want smaller, lighter. I'm

Cathy Gellis (00:58:42):
Sorry. Like my hands are only so large and my pockets are only so large and I don't want a phone that I can't keep in my pocket. My wife's the same, My pocket's not getting any bigger.

Ant Pruitt (00:58:50):
You know, Miss Cathy, I hear that from Queen Pruitt quite often, but I also hear just as much. Ah, I can't see the screen. You know, look, it's sort of a,

Cathy Gellis (00:59:01):
Depends, depends what you optimize for. Like I know some people who are basically using it almost instead of their laptop and they're the people who want the bigger screens. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And they too hand it. And they wanna be able to see everything. I want the emergency computer. Like I'll schlep my laptop if I want a laptop, but if I just want to be out and about but not disconnected, I want want something small and portable and I'm not getting that. I'm losing that over time. Although I did today just see my friend had a foldable one and I don't know

Leo Laporte (00:59:30):
If it's those are,

Cathy Gellis (00:59:31):
But I hear they're expensive and not quite maybe

Leo Laporte (00:59:33):
Ready. Yes, Stacy has, but they were, No, I think it's quite good. The Samsung Flip four came out last month. Which way? So Stacy, I sent her my flip three. I think they're very, very good. I wouldn't get the fold, which is, the idea is it's a tablet that folds up into a rather thick phone. But I would look at the flip phone, which is a, especially if you want a smaller phone. Yeah. And if it, Yeah, the problem is they don't put big pockets in women's clothing actually.

Cathy Gellis (00:59:56):
Well, we're lucky to get any pockets.

Leo Laporte (00:59:58):
You're lucky to have pockets. Yeah.

Cathy Gellis (01:00:01):
But, but you know, like normal pants sort of, we can get away with it, but there's a limit to helping. They're, they're going to be, And you don't wanna put in your back pocket. Cuz that's where pick pockets target. So

Leo Laporte (01:00:10):
I, I am seeing reviews. The verges review is at, they give it a score of seven. They're, they're, yeah. They're not quite the super helpful, ultra intelligent phones that Google wants them to be. This is Alison Johnson writing. But the latest pixel devices are more competitive than ever. I don't think, you know, I don't know if I care about whether they're competitive. Yeah. It's also about the numbers, about the expectation. What do they expect? Yeah. If it's g2 chip, the New tens or G2 chip which Google says because it's a ai focused chip is required for some of the features, including the improved audio. Although I noticed Alison says when she's talking about the good and the bad, that new speech and intelligence features are underwhelming. It does have face recognition as well as fingerprint. Remember the fingerprint reader on the Pixel six.

Leo Laporte (01:01:04):
A lot of people complain about Ant, You hated it. I remember. I did. It got better. It got better. Fine. Now over time I found it fine, but it's totally fine. It'll be nice to have a choice and to have you know, fast fa on face unlock would be good. Even with Mask On, that's another key. Yeah. An iPhone's done that for a while. It really works. Even when I wear my scary ba mask, the iPhone will unlock. Sometimes, not always, sometimes for me. Let's see. The screen is the same size 6.3 inch oh lid on the pixel. Seven 6.7 inch on the Pixel seven Pro. And it's 120 hertz display on the pro model. 90 hertz on the, the little model. I never pay attention to refresh rate. But people really seem to notice the difference, the smooth scrolling and so forth.

Leo Laporte (01:01:55):
Very bright by the way. And every, all the reviewers have said Yeah, they, they really look good. In the daylight. Colors are softer, says Allison. The camera bar is either, Oh, she's talking about the camera bar, which is now all metal Matt and polished aluminum Matt for the Pixel seven. And the pro has you like, you like the bar on when you did the live didn't bother me. You get what you, what you're gonna do and you want is a case that makes the bar more flush. Cause otherwise it does. I mean, without a case it really protrudes. This is the Pixel six. But you could see how big that camera, Well, they ever make a phone that doesn't need a case. A stupid question, but Well, everybody claims they've made a phone that doesn't need a case. Must dump <laugh> <laugh> when you're making them out of glass.

Ant Pruitt (01:02:42):
Right.

Leo Laporte (01:02:44):
Kind.

Cathy Gellis (01:02:44):
My three fell on its face like, you know, the day I got it, Yeah. Hit something on just the right corner to send a splinter through it. It's been there ever since. At least I've had the, the protective sticker over it so it didn't shatter further and it doesn't slice my fingers. So it's just really, really annoying that it exists. But yeah, but I think I got a case on it that didn't have enough of a beveled. I think you want a cushion above the glass to be able to you know, feel like it could fall on its face without too much injury.

Leo Laporte (01:03:15):
Yeah, I agree. Google did have problems, as you remember last year with drop calls. A lot of Pixel six s couldn't call 9 1 1 <laugh>. I don't know if they ever solved that. Google says it's using a new modem chip. But the Verge says she had a couple of issues on one call. The person on the other hand said the phone was cutting off the last syllables of her sentences. Another time caller said I got cut off as I was talking. That's unfortunate. Yeah. but that's, you know, one person's experience with a couple of calls mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, as I said, I'll have the phone tomorrow and I'll I'll report back next week. Battery, all Google said is they'll last over 24 hours.

Ant Pruitt (01:03:59):
Lies.

Leo Laporte (01:04:00):
Yeah. Probably wise It is <laugh>. Yeah. Probably lies the pro has a 5,000 million a hour battery, which is fairly big. That's big. Yeah. 43, 55 for the Pixel seven. Again, so, you know, you even saw a different battery life depending on which version of Android you were using. Right?

Ant Pruitt (01:04:19):
I sure did. Yeah. This, this, the latest version man, this battery is, is it's definitely all day. There's no stress at the end of the day. What, last week? I was sitting at like 70% during the show. It's 68 today.

Leo Laporte (01:04:32):
Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:04:33):
And I've been on it a good bit this morning because I was trying to work on some stuff floss. So yeah. This, this, it's way better now with the ROS update.

Leo Laporte (01:04:40):
Good. You know in, in the years that Google's been selling these phones, how many years has it been? Almost 10. They've sold a total of I think 27 million, which is less than Apple and Samsung selling. Not saying much. So they're just really not in the, they're not imp I don't think they're important. They're important cuz it's the phone from Google. But,

Ant Pruitt (01:05:08):
Oh, again, I go back to my argument the other week where people think of Android phones. They never think of Google. This always Samsung. Right. And heck, they never even say Android. They just say Droid or they say Samsung. Right.

Leo Laporte (01:05:20):
<Laugh>. Right. It's a, they don't know. They don't even, Yeah. So Google has added something they call clear calling to filter out background noise and wind. CNN in their review says this is Max. Bondon says it works remarkably well. I placed a lot of phone calls during my testing each one in a different setting. So it's really funny, the reviewers are getting, you know, results all over the map. Some walking down windy streets. Others at my kitchen table, all of them were delightful since I hear could hear the person I was speaking with so clearly. The other which was available last year on the Pixel six direct my call, which I, they showed off at the event. And I tell you what if, if it does it well it's the o it's the one thing that would make it worth buying this phone. When you get to a call tree, it shows you on the screen what the options are so you can tap 'em. Yeah. You don't have to sit and listen to please hold on. As our options have changed, press one. And

Ant Pruitt (01:06:23):
They never have

Leo Laporte (01:06:23):
Changed. They never changed <laugh>. It's the same list. He says he couldn't test it cuz he couldn't find anybody participating. Apparently businesses have to make their voicemail compatible with Google Duplex before direct my call can work. I think maybe a lot of businesses don't want you to skip ahead. The whole point of the voice tree is to get you to hang up before they have to pay a human to talk to you. Cuz that's expensive. So I'm not clear voice memos getting an improvement. When you use the recorder app, your phone will not only transcribe it, but will label the speaker. I don't, I mean it wouldn't know it's you Jeff. Maybe it would maybe say that. Maybe that guy Jeff <laugh> hang up. Wow. Again, CNN says it works exceptionally well to a point where it makes you wonder just how powerful Google's machine learning software really is. The good news is Google has guaranteed three years of Android versions and five years of security updates. So that's a big improvement. You know. Right before the we, I think we talked,

Ant Pruitt (01:07:36):
Is that the standard now? Is that like the Apple standard? The five year

Leo Laporte (01:07:39):
Security apple's longer than that. I think Apple that's longer. I think Apple now it's down to it's iPhone eight I think. I can't remember. You're getting Yeah, Apple goes on long time. Samsung goes on five years. I think it ought to be the standard. Right? I think it's not unreasonable to think you'll get a new phone every five years. Right. Although I know plenty of people who don't. I think most people probably don't. How old was your phone, John, before you got the new iPhone? Eight years. Geez. And he works for us. That dude, he's a geek. I have a,

Cathy Gellis (01:08:13):
I have a texted post though complaining about that I couldn't run United Airlines app on my phone anymore. Yeah. Because something needed to be upgraded, Right? I guess the operating system and the phone couldn't do it. So it ended up uns supported. And this just seemed like a problem at that, that at certain point, the ecosystem, if it's not breaking your devices, it basically makes them unusable. Right. And some of the pushback is, well, because stuff needs to be supported and it's not supported, so it will be unsafe. But this is a problem because it just creates e-waste. And right now we don't have a very robust rate of repair. So the idea that you buy a thing in that like if you take care of it and that you don't drop it, it has a finite life. Like it's a disposable product, Just a disposable product with a lifetime of not weeks, but years. But it's only a handful of years. Whereas, you know, we used to buy washing machines and televisions that would last for like a generation. This is not good. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:09:08):
Yeah. They don't last anymore.

Leo Laporte (01:09:10):
Here. I'll get Ann's opinion on this. This is again, Max Bondo writing for cnn. Here is an example of the Zoom. This is a 50 megapixel sensor with a two x button. So there's the,

Ant Pruitt (01:09:27):
I wish you put those in quotes.

Leo Laporte (01:09:28):
There's Yeah, I know. Well, it's binning and maybe have that many megapixels, but who knows what you get. I think that's a pretty good zoom. That's pretty good quality. Yeah. It's a, you know, it's a little artifact but not, not bad. The ultra wide is the same as on the six. In fact, honestly, I don't think there's a lot of differences in the camera. 

Ant Pruitt (01:09:47):
I'm more curious about the macro because I believe they have shortened the minimum focal Yeah. Distance for macro. Yeah. That's big for people that love to shoot macro shots. Yeah. You can get even closer.

Leo Laporte (01:10:01):
This is a, it might be a macro of a, of a bagel. It's looks pretty good. Makes me want a bagel.

Ant Pruitt (01:10:09):
I'll take it.

Leo Laporte (01:10:09):
I'll take a bagel please. With a ham and egg breakfast bagel. The macro ham and a bagel. <Laugh>

Cathy Gellis (01:10:17):
Ham. A

Leo Laporte (01:10:17):
Bagel ham a bagel. Now really that's not right, is it Cathy? That's, that's not Okay. That's who put that tray in my bagel. All right. Totally have that Ed. Great. Ed gravy. Ed Gravy. Mark Park news seven 48 megapixel telephoto lens. Five x lossless zoom photos. The 12 megapixel mid middle camera. Do a 10 x zoom and then you could do an op a a digital zoom up to 30 x. Macro mode lets you get closer than ever before or what, whatever that means. I don't know how close doesn't

Ant Pruitt (01:10:56):
Sound. It wasn't very close. When I did macro shots with this six pro, I found that I got better image quality using the telephoto lens and standing further back and doing the, Isn't that interesting on it? Yeah. Yeah. I believe we actually demoed it last year on the show. Yeah. I had coffee beans and just set up a light and put the phone on a little tripod stand and just used the T photo and it was, it was nice for a phone. Yeah. The macro mode was you couldn't get tight enough.

Leo Laporte (01:11:29):
Little disappointing. According to digital camera world, there is no manual photo mode. I don't know if you can get raw images. That's something Apple does very well with their pro res or their pro raw they call it, where you get a a raw dump of the data from the sensor, but you also get included in the, in the file, which is very large as a result. All the computational information, the depth image information and so forth. So that's good. Obsidian, lemon grass and snow. I ordered snow.

Ant Pruitt (01:12:07):
Oh, I was, I was

Leo Laporte (01:12:08):
Hoping if you'd get the greenish winter is coming. Ah,

Ant Pruitt (01:12:11):
Yes.

Leo Laporte (01:12:12):
This was a, a big week for announcements. So the pixel announcement was on Thursday. They also announced the first time that Google's ever released a watch, the Pixel watch. And I have to say, I'm not tempted to order it because the glass is like a bubble, a curve bubble on time. It's completely exposed. And I just know the first time I get it, be just like you, Cathy. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> stick right against something.

Ant Pruitt (01:12:39):
I'm more interested in the watch in the phone

Leo Laporte (01:12:41):
Myself for the health reasons. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative> although Google has said that you don't, with the watch, you don't get the full Fitbit experience, which is surprising since they own Fitbit

Ant Pruitt (01:12:56):
Capitalism baby. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:12:59):
Yeah. So let me see if I can find a review of the watch since we're we're talking about it.

Ant Pruitt (01:13:08):
Wonder if Tshaka has got his stuff out. He was on all about Android last night Tshaka Armstrong. Yeah. And I know he had

Leo Laporte (01:13:16):
And they had, Yeah. They had, In fact, if you're really interested in all this stuff, probably better to watch all about Android. Cuz they had, they all had the phones, they all had the watches. They were all, they were all talking. Google did announce kind of an interesting thing. And I normally I put this in the change log, but I, I think this is actually more important than just a change log. If you're a Google Fi user, which I am, and I ordered the phone from p they're now gonna turn on an anonymizing feature called Virtual Carrier Network. As you know, Google is an M V N O P uses US Cellular and T-Mobile, but US Cellular and T-Mobile and Google will not get information about who you are. Google, which released a technical white paper said neither party is capable of associating traffic with any specific user. The virtual carrier network keeps your cellular data anonymous on pixel devices anonymous from both Google and T-Mobile, ands, cellular, the MVNOs. That's very, I thought very interesting. So if you're worried about your carrier, we know that carriers are notorious for snooping on people.

Ant Pruitt (01:14:32):
I think that's sort of an expectation,

Leo Laporte (01:14:34):
Right? That they will Yeah. Yeah. It's sounds a little bit like a vpn. The VCN encrypts all internet bound traffic using IP SEC tunnels. So it is kind of a VPN AEs C gcm. There are also carrier network level components by contract. So they've contracted with the MVNOs. Not do, you won't do not, do not. Snoop <laugh>. The five ECN uses blind signing to assure full separation of your identity from your network traffic. So you can authenticate that a user has a Validify subscription and therefore can be granted access to the VCN service. But no metadata regarding the content of internet traffic and internet services being used are tied back to you as an individual subscriber. I think that's good. Google. You know, one of the problems Google has competing with both Samsung and Apple is I think most people don't think of Google as the privacy company. Nope. Just, just say the least. Right, Right. <Laugh>,

Ant Pruitt (01:15:36):
This company sells ads from search and stuff. They want

Leo Laporte (01:15:39):
Everything. People know what their business is. Lot of data. Yeah. I'm excited too. I will try this. Google is rolling out pasky as well on these new devices. Pasky, you may remember is the technology that's supposed to eliminate passwords. This should also be in the change log, but I think it's so important. I'm I'm moving it up. Apple, Google and Microsoft have agreed to replace website passwords and app passwords too. With ss the device, when you unlock it by, with biometrics or an ID verifies your identity. And that's enough. So starting today, Android and Google Chrome will support signing in with PA Keys.

Jeff Jarvis (01:16:24):
Well, so does that already work? To some extent. I mean, if, if it's already set up somewhere else to, to recognize that.

Leo Laporte (01:16:31):
Well, I don't, No. It has to be supported by the tool, the phone. Cuz the phone has to authenticate you. So is

Ant Pruitt (01:16:38):
This part of that Fido stuff, Mr.

Leo Laporte (01:16:40):
Leport? Yes. It's 5 0 2. I can't remember. That's what it is. It's 5 0 2. Does

Jeff Jarvis (01:16:44):
The, does the service I'm trying to get into, have to set that up first.

Leo Laporte (01:16:47):
Yes. So yes. Okay.

Jeff Jarvis (01:16:49):
Find

Leo Laporte (01:16:49):
That you go to Strava to log in because I know you're a big runner, Jeff and <laugh>, you go to Strava to log in and instead of instead of seeing a standard login, here's the image from from Google. It says use your screen lock. It says use this PAs key and it says you know Jeff Jarvis. And you say Yes. And then it says unlock your screen. They show a fingerprint, although face ID would work as well. If you are on a browser that it and not on your device. So let's say you're on a browser on your Chromebook, it'll pop up a QR code. You pull out your phone, you scan the QR code on the phone, The phone says, Okay, identify yourself and you're in. No, the phone is your unlock. This is a i, you know, there are pros and cons to this system, but it's sure better than Sure beats passwords.

Leo Laporte (01:17:43):
If you want to use it. You'll have to enroll in the Google Play Services beta and use Chrome Canary stable Aro come later this year, which means in the next couple of months. Cuz this year is almost over. Right. developers can build pasky support on the web with Chrome by the web a n api. So you're, you're gonna have to find sites that will support this. I think now that Apple's supporting it in Io s 16, Google's supporting it on Android. I think that's, you know, it's the catch 22. It's the chicken or egg problem. And I think now sites will start to implement it. So that's very good news. Pas key is, is coming out

Ant Pruitt (01:18:27):
In an attempt to help curtail a lot of the password breach stuff. Right. Basically is what this is

Leo Laporte (01:18:33):
Doing. Yeah. Yeah. It would solve the fishing problem, I think. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:18:36):
Fishing s not fishing.

Leo Laporte (01:18:38):
Yeah. Yeah. and so that was another, No,

Jeff Jarvis (01:18:42):
I think you put something else in there, which was really interesting. Yeah. If, if if if someone loses their phone of a homeless person loses their phone, you have that in the

Leo Laporte (01:18:52):
Rundown. Oh, this is a, Yeah. Okay. So this was initial, a long tweet thread from Chad Loader who is a journalist. Google's project, a product designer should talk to my unhoused friends. Yeah. This is a, you know, this is an example of, you know, employed engineer doesn't really consider these issues when you require a mobile phone number for authentication as many sites to, as

Jeff Jarvis (01:19:19):
Now we're going to more. So yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:19:22):
I guess you're right. Pasky would require a mobile. That's,

Jeff Jarvis (01:19:24):
That's, yeah, that's what made me think

Leo Laporte (01:19:25):
Of this. You, you guarantee that an unhoused person well permanently lose access to their email when their phone is lost. Stolen or destroyed. And if you're unhoused, that happens a lot, right? It happens all the time. Unhoused people tend to get their phones through Obama phone program, which means replacing a lost or stolen phone results in a completely new phone number. Service providers and case workers rely on email to communicate with unhoused folks. I've got about 30 unhoused neighbors whom I regularly communicate with. Now, a single one has been able to keep the same cell phone number for more than four months at a time. It's usually four weeks or less. Text space two factor means they permanently lose access to their email accounts. They're often going to the library to do that. They, they can't, They, they have to get a new Gmail account each time. And your caseworker will close your case for Nonresponse and then you have to start all over again. Yeah. Oh, I follow on. I didn't see that threat. Ooh.

Jeff Jarvis (01:20:25):
You know, it occurred to me this is a dumb idea. I mean, couldn't Google give every unhoused person an email address that they, that that, that they then have, or a phone number or something that they then have across devices or across?

Leo Laporte (01:20:41):
Well, yes. He, he raises the thing the issue of Google Voice for the people wondering whether Google Voice would help, the answer is no. Because to use Google Voice, you have to log into a Google account. Oh right. Yeah. And you know, it's a chicken and egg problem. But Google could solve this. Absolutely. And that's what he's saying. He's saying employees of Bay Area tech giants are probably the last people group of people on earth I'd trust to design products that work well for unhoused users. So, I

Cathy Gellis (01:21:10):
Mean, it has good point to do with the myopia of design, Right. Of well, you think about it in terms of your life as you understand it, and you don't consider other use cases. And this is also where diversity becomes sort of the watch word, where the more people you have, the more people it's going to. Different use cases will dawn on because they have different lived experiences. So they'll be more sensitive to it. So there's a lot of things going on. This particular problem needs a better process to solve it. But then there's the sort of the larger thing of like, well, why didn't it get anticipated in the first place? And sometimes, you know, you can't think of everything. But there do seems to be not infrequently shortcomings like this where you just really didn't think through who your entire constituency was.

Cathy Gellis (01:21:54):
And even if you aren't a diverse workforce, you can certainly go through the brainstorming effort to do a little bit better and make sure you don't just, you know, consider the world as, you know, whatever you see at the end of your nose, that there's more to it than that. And you need to think harder about different cases. And also in terms of like, okay, what are we presuming we'll all be in place and all work properly? And what are the challenges? What if all of those assumptions aren't met? What if the person doesn't have toity? What if the person can't read? What if the person this or that? I don't think they're going through the exercise of thinking that through. And maybe they think it's just not important cuz it's just not enough people. But it is enough people that somebody needs to care.

Leo Laporte (01:22:33):
It's also why it's such a vicious cycle homelessness. It's so hard to get out of because you've now, you're kind of just, you know, you're cast adrift. And you know, there is this kind of myopia. Anyway, everybody, we all experience this from time to time where they just assume you must have access to a computer. Right. You must have a smartphone. What? You don't <laugh> you don't have a smartphone. What's wrong with you? So older people also suffer from this. 

Cathy Gellis (01:23:01):
This is a huge problem. Older people and I'm, I've been, been sort of being introduced to the problem of older people and cybersecurity and the challenges of that. And you know, we already have li systems to sort of deal with cybersecurity anyway. But when it comes to older people, the breakdowns are really significant. And then you get things where in order to preserve the privacy and preserve the cybersecurity, maybe now you've got issues where effectively the person can't be in touch with their doctor anymore. The communications are totally protected, but they're so well protected Yes. That the patient can't get in. That's right. We, it we're not thinking this, I mean some of these are truly hard to problems, but it's one thing to be stymied by a hard problem. It's another thing to just never have assessed it correctly as a hard problem. Yeah. And I think we're there as opposed to truly being tyy because things are complex.

Leo Laporte (01:23:54):
I agree a hundred percent. It's a design issue. It's just an awareness issue. It's solvable. Are you ready for the metaverse? No. No. Another <laugh>. Well, I was, I was hundred percent Actually. Can you we're done with that segment. Move on. No, I cannot define the metaverse, but at least now thanks to Meadow, we have legs in the metaverse in the place that we can't define What a So good, what a what a relief. Kicking up my heels. How

Cathy Gellis (01:24:25):
Big are the pockets on the pants and the metal

Leo Laporte (01:24:28):
<Laugh>? That's a, that's a good question. So not big enough to carry her headset

Cathy Gellis (01:24:33):
Pockets. They didn't give her pockets.

Leo Laporte (01:24:36):
It's only eating her pockets. She gets a pocket, but no pockets on those jeans. She's just happy to be wearing heels. Baby. That is very sexy. I mean, at

Cathy Gellis (01:24:45):
This, choose that more power to them. But that is not the diviv default choice. Like some women actually like to be comfortable in their footwear. Yeah. In fact, not some, All of us would like to be comfortable

Leo Laporte (01:24:56):
In our footwear. <Laugh> here's well what happened? They seemed have taken the image out of this tweet. There was an image of them jumping for joy that they had legs. Maybe they were, Oh, I was there. Maybe they're embarrassed. I don't <laugh>. Somebody came at there in the back that somebody said you know, maybe that's not the best the best look. So me. So Facebook had its Facebook Connect, I'm sorry. Meta had its Meta Connect event yesterday. I did not. We, we thought about covering it and I guess this is where my bias against meta shows up cuz I said, No way I'm getting up tomorrow for Microsoft. I'm not gonna do it. And you know, there was some interesting stuff, although it was a pretty so event, I watched the video later. What was interesting is for today's surface event, Microsoft Panos pane showed a bunch of new surfaces and said Satya Nadela, our CEO will be talking later in the day, but for the meta event, Mark Zuckerberg says, And now here I have Satya Nadela <laugh>, the CEO of Microsoft showed up for the Facebook event, not for his own surface event.

Cathy Gellis (01:26:09):
Interesting. Well, I feel like the plural of surfaces should be surf.

Leo Laporte (01:26:13):
Siri, how about that surf? I won't even go into the surface stuff from today. You can, We we streamed it. I got up 7:00 AM to do that. I actually didn't get up. I got on the air at 7:00 AM to do that. And it was sing singularly uninteresting. Although there were some surprises. For instance, Microsoft is gonna build in Dolly two into its Microsoft Designer program, which is their competitor for Figma and Canvas and into Bing search. So soon you'll be able to do a Bing search for an image that doesn't exist and Dolly two will create it just for you. Wow. That was really surprising. I thought that was quite interesting. Anyway, back to the Metaverse. I know we're, you're trying to avoid it, but no, now, now you can walk back on your new Metaverse. I'd

Cathy Gellis (01:27:06):
Rather talk about Alon Mosque.

Leo Laporte (01:27:09):
Ah, I know <laugh>. So there were quite a few creepy memes about, about legs in the Metaverse. But I can't, I I can't find the

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:24):
I, no, I put it in the chat. The

Leo Laporte (01:27:25):
Chat. You found it? Okay, good. I don't know. It's

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:28):
Actually, it's on my

Leo Laporte (01:27:29):
List. It wasn't, If

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:30):
You go down to my list, it's also online.

Leo Laporte (01:27:33):
Here we go. You tell me no lines. I got no lines for you. Here we go. Legs coming soon. Are you excited? Boy, Mark. Sure is. And what's really sad about this image? The people in the background are legless Yeah. Are

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:48):
Still leg

Leo Laporte (01:27:48):
Jumping up and down on their torsos to cheer the fact that Mark and this woman had, Why

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:54):
Are legs so much harder than arm the un underprivileged here?

Leo Laporte (01:27:58):
I think legs are harder because they don't know where your feet are. They've gotta

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:02):
Interact with the surface.

Leo Laporte (01:28:03):
Notice they're cutting them off. I don't know why legs are so hard, but apparently they are. I did order the the new $1,600.

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:16):
Geez.

Leo Laporte (01:28:18):
Oculus pro these this Oculus or sorry, Meta Quest Pro. Sorry, they got rid of Oculus, didn't they? Is they really didn't really talk about gaming at all. This looks like it's really a productivity tool effect. That's why Satya Andela showed up to show that this is a weird part, but the, it's supposed to be comfortable, I guess is what they're trying to say. Satya Andela showed up to talk about their deal with Microsoft to put win put, you know, I have Windows in the, in the Metaverse and Microsoft office in the Metaverse. The only reason I ordered this is a, I want to give 'em a chance cuz every five years I should, I feel like I should try this stuff and b I can return it in 30 days. So I'll <laugh> I'll try it. They really focused on it as a productivity tool. And I wonder is that if that's something people really are looking for,

Jeff Jarvis (01:29:09):
That's, I think, I think Benedict evidence was making, or somebody was making that argument that it's, it's oddly this will work more for first for Enterprise than it's like Google Glass,

Leo Laporte (01:29:19):
That's who they're aiming at. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:29:21):
And, and an individual. And, and I, God, if I had to go to a faculty meeting this way, it'd be, Oh God,

Leo Laporte (01:29:27):
Ben Thompson.

Cathy Gellis (01:29:27):
I dunno if anybody who wants to meet that way I

Leo Laporte (01:29:30):
Know, but nobody wants to meet anyway. Right. This is

Ant Pruitt (01:29:32):
Zoom is already hard enough for people. Right?

Leo Laporte (01:29:35):
Yeah. And we

Cathy Gellis (01:29:37):
Don't have legs on Zoom and we cope. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:29:39):
Mary Jo Foley pointed out, Good point that you're holding these controllers. So how are you, how are you supposed to type? And it's just, here's a teacher working. Ben Thompson pointed out that they had been having meetings with the Quest too until one of the people lost his Quest two in a move and then they went back to Zoom. But he, he says they're kind of excited about using this Quest Pro for meetings. He says, You forget where you are. But I think a num most people agree that this is more a kind of a product demo than the future of Meta. But Mark Zuckerberg's betting on it as the future of Meta.

Ant Pruitt (01:30:26):
Everything I read about it is, it sounds like he's really trying to present something the way Ready Player Wine was where it takes you away. Yeah. You know, this is the life, but is that really feasible on, on a, on a mass scale? Do you think this is something everybody's gonna get into? Is it just gonna be niche down to the enterprise or the few people that got it, you know, several hundred bucks to just sort of throw away? I just don't see it being feasible.

Jeff Jarvis (01:30:54):
I don't either. At rant, I think I won't see the desire, the need.

Cathy Gellis (01:30:59):
I think the same product builders who didn't bother to think through the actual needs of their users may not have bothered to really think through the actual wants and desires and needs of their potential customers. Like I think the same. We're not paying attention to all the people we really wanna sell our stuff to, and we're gonna build from them anyway. And sure they're gonna like it because we're, we're this company. I think that's hopelessly naive. And at some point when, when customers have the power to say no, they're gonna say no. And not writing that $700 check is an easy No,

Jeff Jarvis (01:31:31):
I think you're right too. It's about dog food

Ant Pruitt (01:31:34):
From an entertainment standpoint. I could see it being quite fun and, and people really diving into that. But something that you're doing all day long and like, like this is your life. You get outta bed, you brush your teeth, wash your face, you put your visor on, and you start your day. I don't, I don't see that myself.

Jeff Jarvis (01:31:52):
So, Cash Beer Hill did a, did a, I think brave piece to do 24 hours in Metaverse. She, you know, a different hour of the day. And then the funny thing was there was a follow up for the New York Times in which evidently I think Zuckerberg or somebody high up in in Facebook scolded, the staff of Facebook for some of them aren't in well, what do they call their workspace?

Leo Laporte (01:32:16):
Horizon world? Because it's, they don't want to use it

Jeff Jarvis (01:32:19):
And they don't have, they don't even have headsets. Yeah. And they don't wanna be there. And, and that's, to Cathy's point, if you're not eating the dog food, don't give it to a dog.

Ant Pruitt (01:32:27):
Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:32:29):
We should point out, Cashmere Hill was using the Quest two, the inexpensive, relatively inexpensive Yeah. $400 VR headset, which a lot of people like, it's untethered. And and the pro will be even better, you know, a lot more technology, although battery life is between one and two hours, so you ain't gonna be spending 24 hours in the metaphor

Jeff Jarvis (01:32:49):
<Laugh> Oh, she had to do it an hour at a time. <Laugh>. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:32:53):
I, I, I got it because I thought really, you know, I oughta give it a chance and we're gonna get I think Jason Snell is gonna come in. He's a big questi user. He likes it. And Gary Kaufler, who's one of our listeners and has been in VR since it was, you know, first conceived of 25 years ago is, has ordered his, So we'll do a demo. It comes in two weeks October 25th. Yeah,

Ant Pruitt (01:33:17):
I know what Gary thinks.

Leo Laporte (01:33:18):
Gary's all in. I mean, he's, he's been, but see, he's, he's one of those people who says it's gonna happen. And I'm just, I'm, I'm watching. As we get closer and closer, he believes in the metaverse

Jeff Jarvis (01:33:31):
Vision.

Leo Laporte (01:33:32):
Yeah. I'm, I'm not convinced people want to be in a metaverse, but you never know until, Is there

Jeff Jarvis (01:33:38):
Any use case, Ant, Ant Cathy? Is there any use case where you could imagine Yes. For that purpose? I wanted,

Ant Pruitt (01:33:45):
I go back to just the exploring the world purpose of it. You know, I have Mr. Le Port's old ocular sitting right over there and hopping on Google Maps to see different parts of the world is so freaking cool. You know? And being able to use that tool to talk Queen Pruitt out of wanting to go to Rio was awesome.

Leo Laporte (01:34:05):
<Laugh>

Ant Pruitt (01:34:07):
I had to touch cuz she said, I wanna go to Rio for vacation. I'm like, No you don't. No you don't. And I showed her Favas and yeah. We haven't talked about Rio since

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:16):
How long ago was the last time you used the headset?

Ant Pruitt (01:34:20):
It's been a year at least

Leo Laporte (01:34:21):
<Laugh>. Well hang around. You might inherit the new one. <Laugh>. <laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:27):
Yeah. I can you imagine would

Leo Laporte (01:34:28):
Like

Ant Pruitt (01:34:29):
Though I I really do like

Leo Laporte (01:34:30):
Using, It's one of those things where you go, This is cool, this cool. I

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:34):
Get it.

Leo Laporte (01:34:34):
But, but I don't wanna spend a lot of time in it yet. So

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:37):
Is Quadro. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:34:39):
Do you put and, and I'm not trying to disparage anyone before I say this, but are, would you put the VR fans, or not vr, the Metaverse fans in the same bucket, you would put those that are all in on the world of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency? No,

Leo Laporte (01:34:55):
No, no, no. I don't think it's as scammy as that. No, I I always suspect people who are flogging, NFTs and crypto and blockchain have a dog in that hunt like they've got. So they're creating a market, something they wanna unload on you. Yeah. But doesn't blockchain have an, an actual place in the world of technology? Far as just here's how I, here's how I put it. Blockchain is just a distributed database. Uhhuh, does a distributed database have a place in the future? Sure, Yeah. For some things. Yeah. It's not a panacea. Okay. Yeah. It's like everybody got all excited over Mongo DB and wow, this is the next big thing. It's, it's a technology. It's a legit technology. There's some uses for it. It's not gonna change the world. No. Okay. It's a distributed database.

Cathy Gellis (01:35:51):
I think the answer to ans original question though, I might wanna say yes and I understand why, why it'd say would say no. Because there definitely is a grif that shows up in a lot of the Bitcoin things. But I think some of the people who are buying into it are buying into it in a similar way that they're buying into the metaverse, which is that there is something that they like buying into and the sense of community that buying into it and having shared compadres seems to scratch a, some sort of emotional itch where the more they double down and the more they get people involved, and the more they seem to have like a little family with an equally intense feeling towards it. I think that does kind of bind people to certain things. But I think it's not just Bitcoin and I think it's not just Metaverse.

Cathy Gellis (01:36:36):
I think it's also conspiracy theories and fan clubs and, and you know, a lot of, a lot of things that like, people like to sort of feel like they've got their family, like outside their literal family, like a place where mm-hmm. <Affirmative> things make sense to them. They can commit it makes them happy. They find pleasure, they find support. And somehow I think, you know, I think some somethings deliver on some of that much better than others. I don't think Bitcoin is, but I think that intensity of interest is something that is common across lots of things that people can be intensely interested in and feel very invested in. And then feel that that investment needs to be defended. Because if it gets attacked, then if it's actually, it somehow seems like more of an attack on them and their essence as opposed to, you know, that the

Leo Laporte (01:37:22):
Interest is too stupid. That's stupid. That's what solidifies the cult is when it's us, us and them. Yeah. Yeah.

Cathy Gellis (01:37:27):
I mean, to varying degrees and to varying degrees of detriment depending on what the thing is. But yeah, I, I think, I think I share what inspired an's question, which is it does feel like the same thing of like you're very intensely invested in something that may not be worth it. And that may be true for Bitcoin and also for Metaverse.

Leo Laporte (01:37:47):
I kind of liken it to Andrew Yang's quest for a universal basic income. Yeah. For a lot of people it's motivated by a very real issue, which is you know, late stage capitalism is falling apart. Income inequality is racing out of control. Pe there is no longer a middle class. People cannot make enough money to support themselves in most jobs. You know, we are, we're in a situation where the rich get richer, the poor get poor. We have a country falling apart over politics. We've got racism you know, there's all these problems. And people kind of say, Well, here's a, here's a path to privacy and equality by decentralizing money. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I think for a lot of people you know Jay-Z is, is trying to promote, you know, bitcoin awareness in the ghetto, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> remember that. And I think that's motivated, not because Jay-Z's greedy, but

Ant Pruitt (01:38:56):
By I hope is more along the lines of just educating people.

Leo Laporte (01:38:59):
Well, and, and even more. He, he wants to solve what is obviously a big problem. You know? I mean black people historically have just been left out of wealth creation. Yeah. You know for 200 years. And so there's this huge in, I mean the, the income incoming in inequality you see in general is 10 times worse for, for black people and other people of color. Yeah. So I, I understand that a lot of these people are motivated very positively, just like Andrew Yang is with universal basic income by trying to solve this really bad problem. I don't think either of them are, are is gonna solve it. And unfortunately, there are a lot of scammers when it comes to crypto. Yeah. I mean, you're just seeing and, and the hacks that are going on and, you know, Binance just was hacked. Finance half a billion dollars grief. You know, it's, it's not, it's it's patently not the solution to wealth, inequality, privacy or anything else. So unfortunately, so I don't wanna paint everybody who's into this or web three you know, as being scammers. They're not, I think they're motivated by genuine interest in fixing a terrible thing that's going on in this country. I don't know how you fix it, but I don't think Defi is, is gonna do that.

Leo Laporte (01:40:21):
And I guess the Metaverse isn't gonna do it either. <Laugh>?

Ant Pruitt (01:40:25):
No. You know, I'm sitting here thinking about that whole the was Ready Player one thinking about that movie or the book or whatever. What I did enjoy about it was it was everybody that had access to that space. It wasn't just the rich that had access to, but

Leo Laporte (01:40:42):
Don't, don't forget what that world was outside the metaverse. It was a horrific dystopia, right?

Ant Pruitt (01:40:50):
Yeah, it was. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:40:51):
And and I have to point out, how did this guy living in, what is he living in a container <laugh> department building, made outta containers or something? How does he afford all this expensive gear? Right? And even in the book, there is this kind of issue where he has kind of worse gear and then he gets better gear and stuff. But me is spending 10 billion a year to build this. The, the current high end Oculus or Request Pro is $1,700. And it's not even And the use case isn't there. Well, I mean, I guess demand isn't there, You know, I think we have to, if we're gonna have a metaverse, it's gonna have to be a UI much farther advanced than anything we're looking at right now. Hey, here's, well, let's take a break and then I want to talk about the return of Steve Jobs. He's talking to Joe Rogan, or as they say, Bro, Jo in just bro jo in just a little bit. But first, hey, it's great to have Cathy Gillis stopping by after her appearance today at the Supreme Court. I like to say that it's,

Cathy Gellis (01:42:02):
I I appeared at the building. Yes. But usually appearance has a slightly different kind of thing. You

Leo Laporte (01:42:08):
Went in, didn't

Cathy Gellis (01:42:09):
You? I appeared in the gallery, yes. To watch the oral arguments.

Leo Laporte (01:42:13):
I'd love to do that. That's

Cathy Gellis (01:42:14):
Sort of appearance.

Leo Laporte (01:42:15):
Yeah. And you're right. I mean, that's a rare experience for somebody to actually see these godlike figures in person and re and be reminded of. They're just human beings, I think is, Well,

Cathy Gellis (01:42:24):
You, you can do this. It's difficult because there's not that much seating. I was on a different line cuz I was on the Supreme Court bar line. And a theory were special, but they only let 19 of us in as opposed to an unlimited number. How many

Leo Laporte (01:42:37):
Public get it public line? How many of them get it?

Cathy Gellis (01:42:39):
Well, I don't know how many, and I also don't know if it's different now than it because we still are in they're still covid. So I don't know if they didn't stuff it as full as they normally would've stuffed the room. But they did let members of the public, so if the public wants to go, they can go. They just have to, you know, be aggressive about their line standing and get there early if, you know, there's, if there's a hearing they really wanna see. But if they just wanna see one, some of them aren't all that interesting or popular to the public, in which case it's gonna be much easier to get in. 

Leo Laporte (01:43:10):
More than one

Cathy Gellis (01:43:11):
Hearing. No, this one went very long. This one had I mean I think the original argument by Warhol might have gone for 50 minutes. And then there was the other side, and then there was the government and then there was rebuttal. And the next case was about oil. So I just, the,

Leo Laporte (01:43:25):
The recording, the recording is an hour and 42 minutes long. The Supreme Court has two lines for the public. First come, first serve. One is for those who wish to intend the entire argument. The other is a three minute line for people who wanna just go in for three minutes. I was there just to, just to see it. See,

Cathy Gellis (01:43:46):
Well, that's not the same as the public line. Well, that the public can do that, but the public can also go in for the full thing as long as they get in for one of the allocated seats. But that webpage I do not think is reflecting the current reality of this particular opening for the public because there was nothing to alert you that it was limited for Supreme Court borrowers in the past that had not been so or not been nearly so limited. So your mileage may vary. You know, ask somebody who knows. But yeah, do it. If you're the member of the public and you're curious, the court should be accessible to the public in theory now they're open for, for view in person viewing. So avail yourself of the opportunity if you're in dc

Leo Laporte (01:44:26):
Supreme court.gov if they don't allow people in, they really should fix the website. <Laugh>.

Cathy Gellis (01:44:34):
I mean, they do allow people in, but I think the regimen of how they're doing,

Leo Laporte (01:44:37):
Oh, wait a minute. It says the three minute line. It says the three minute line is temporarily suspended. Okay. The building will, we didn

Cathy Gellis (01:44:44):
Didn't see anything

Leo Laporte (01:44:45):
Like that. Yeah, yeah. The building will otherwise be closed, the public until further notice. So Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:44:52):
Was also security. They're a little concerned.

Leo Laporte (01:44:53):
Oh, there's a lot of security. Yeah. Especially now. Right.

Cathy Gellis (01:44:56):
And then when we left, we were allowed to leave, but they really didn't even like us doling on the steps that the steps were still closed off. They didn't have the big garish gate, but nobody could walk on the steps. You had to stay on the sidewalk. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:45:09):
Anyway, we're thrilled to have you Cathy. Thank you for filling in. Stacy's gonna take

Jeff Jarvis (01:45:14):
And rushing in to to do this. Thank you.

Leo Laporte (01:45:16):
Yeah. Stacy's gonna take a couple of weeks off next week. I'm thrilled that Glen Fleishman will be stopping by Ant. You have the week off next week as well, right? Yes, sir. Okay. So it'll be Jeff, me and Glen, just consider yourself forewarned. We will be talking about next week. Yeah. A lot of, lot of font press stuff longs. You get the idea. He

Jeff Jarvis (01:45:41):
Just, well, he just, Glen was just he went to Ohio to do research. I just saw this on Twitter in a, a comic museum. So he's gonna be all flunked up. Up. You

Leo Laporte (01:45:52):
All flunked up <laugh>. That's, And is that exciting? And then the week following, we were talking a couple of weeks ago, you had been Jeff hanging with Mike Masick. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And he showed you a new kind of Twitter clone called, was it Prometheus? Oh,

Jeff Jarvis (01:46:12):
A planetary.

Leo Laporte (01:46:13):
Planetary. Planetary. That's it. And as we were talking about it, the creative planetary Rabel sent me an email saying, big fan of the show was listening. I said, Well,

Jeff Jarvis (01:46:24):
This is the greatest,

Leo Laporte (01:46:25):
Why don't you come on? We, we, we would love to get your Evan Henshaw. Pla Not only is he doing this, he worked at Twitter, he's very up on what Twitter blue is all about.

Jeff Jarvis (01:46:39):
Oh, I can't wait.

Leo Laporte (01:46:40):
Yes. And he says Planetary is intended to interoperate with Twitter blue. So, you know, cuz I had asked him, Well, why, why do planetary blue guy? You're being blue sky. Blue sky. Yeah. Why do planet not blue? There's a different thing. Yeah. Why do planetary, you know while there's maed on and other things. And so he has some very good arguments for it. So I've invited him to be on, He also before Twitter, he was at od, which was Williams startup that was supposed to be a podcast directory. So he has he has tales to tell. Yeah. I'm really looking forward to welcome. So am I welcoming Rabel? That'll be October 26th. Stacy's out that week is, Well, she'll be back in November on the second and the ninth. So we miss you, Stacy. Get, get your bit little toe better <laugh>,

Jeff Jarvis (01:47:35):
Sloppy wrists and hobbling toes

Leo Laporte (01:47:38):
For a woman. I, she, she apparently, apparently has a tendency to break her little toe. And she said I hadn't done it one in four months, and I did it again, so I had no idea. No wonder she's got floppy wrists. I think it's all

Jeff Jarvis (01:47:52):
And tender

Leo Laporte (01:47:52):
Toes and tender toes,

Jeff Jarvis (01:47:53):
Floppy wrists, and tender toes.

Leo Laporte (01:47:55):
So so we do have, but we have a lot of stuff. Kevin Marks will also join us next week, so that should be fun. Jeff, Glen and Kevin next week. Jeff Ant and Rabel the week after. Can't

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:07):
Wait for, and, and, and Glen's been advising me on fonts for my book. So, Oh, we could really geek out. You

Leo Laporte (01:48:12):
Get to choose your font.

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:14):
I have, I'm discussing that there some great font stories, Magnificent fonts for some special

Leo Laporte (01:48:19):
Fonts. If Kevin allows us, I think we should delve into that next week. That sounds great. I look forward to it.

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:25):
<Laugh>. It's thinking for that, that,

Leo Laporte (01:48:30):
And I'm missing that

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:31):
One. Ca Cathy's the What's

Ant Pruitt (01:48:33):
Crazy is I'm, I will be watching that because I find fonts fascinating. I

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:37):
Agree. Oh, you good? It's great stuff.

Ant Pruitt (01:48:39):
The use case of different fonts is that it really does go a long way in marketing and just presentation in general.

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:46):
I wanna tell the story of the Dove's Bible font, and it's an amazing story and Glen can tell it. He's seen, He, he's, he is talked to the guy who's done amazing things with it. It's phenomenal story.

Leo Laporte (01:48:56):
I can't wait. Leave

Jeff Jarvis (01:48:58):
It

Leo Laporte (01:48:58):
For next week. A f of font knowledge next week.

Jeff Jarvis (01:49:01):
Sometimes spelled f by the way. But

Leo Laporte (01:49:04):
Font is sometimes spelled font font

Jeff Jarvis (01:49:06):
Wisdom. Yes. And

Leo Laporte (01:49:07):
He is f sometimes spelled font

Cathy Gellis (01:49:11):
Is a font of wisdom

Jeff Jarvis (01:49:12):
About thoughts. Yes. And by the way, a typeface is different from a font, but we can do that next week.

Leo Laporte (01:49:19):
<Laugh> a little tease to get excited. Can't wait.

Jeff Jarvis (01:49:23):
Can't wait.

Leo Laporte (01:49:24):
Can't wait till next week.

Jeff Jarvis (01:49:25):
We can talk about the font that got somebody jailed by Hitler. We can do

Leo Laporte (01:49:29):
That too. Oh, there's actually, yeah, I mean, there's, I don't know why, but font nerds have lots of interesting

Jeff Jarvis (01:49:35):
Stories. Oh, they're great stories. They're whacky people. There's, there's sex and intrigue and all kinds of things around fonts. It's amazing.

Leo Laporte (01:49:42):
Wasn't there? I think he talked about last time the guy who threw his font in the ocean. That's, that's, that's the, the Doves right's. The, That's the tens. Yeah. In the tens. The tens, Yeah. Yeah. Our show today brought to you by Cash Fly, our Content Delivery network. How do we know that? Cash Fly is so amazing cuz we use them. We've been using 'em practically since day one for over 10 years. Cash Fly saved our bacon. We, There wouldn't be a twit if we didn't have cash Fly and now Cash FLS do in video. Wow. Ultralow Latency, video streaming. Deliver your video with Cash Fly for the best throughput and global reach, making your content virtually infinitely scalable. You can go live in hours, not days, and listen to this, the latency sub one second less than a second that your Ditch, your Unreliable Web RTC solution for their web socket Live video workflow that just scales to millions of users.

Leo Laporte (01:50:40):
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Leo Laporte (01:51:40):
We have we ever had an issue with Cash? Lie? I can't think of a single time. It's always been our fault. <Laugh> never Cash Fly. In fact, over the last 12 months, Cash Fly has had 100% availability, a hundred percent with Cash Fly. You get ultra low latency video streaming. You get lightning fast gaming, you get mobile content optimization, You get a multiple CDNs for redundancy and failover 10 times faster than traditional methods. 30% faster than other Major CDNs, a 98% cash hit ratio and a hundred percent availability in the past 12 months. Those are the numbers that really blow me away. Best of all, with their 24 7 365 day a year priority support. They're always there for you when you need 'em. They always have been for us. I could not recommend Cash Fly more highly. And it's something you ought check out if you need a cdn and you probably do learn more@cashfly.com. How many years have I been saying it? Bandwidth for this week in Google is brought to you by Cash Fly at C a c H e f l y.com. Thank you. Cash Line. Let's see. Okay, we're at the hour 51 Mark. I'm trying to keep my promise to myself <laugh>, to keep this show short. What, Short term? Yeah. Short. Yeah. It's already too long to be short. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Reasonable goals.

Speaker 7 (01:53:12):
Yeah. I'm Sound pull. Have time

Cathy Gellis (01:53:14):
To, I'm sorry I didn't have time to make you a short show. I had to make you a long show. I don't know. To really screw up a quote for Mark Twain. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:53:24):
If, if you'd had time, you would've made this a shorter show or something. 

Cathy Gellis (01:53:31):
It was witty in my head. Just

Leo Laporte (01:53:33):
Yeah, I know, I know, I know where you're going. I know where you were talking. Should have been there in your metaverse. I knew what you were talking about. Pick something Jeff, since you are, there wasn't, there wasn't actually that much this week. This was pretty thin. All right, well, let me do the Joe or the broad, broad joke. Hold on, hold on. We can get something. Well, I, no, that's not, I'll do this one and you look while I'm I'll look doing this. So there's a new podcast in town podcast.ai, which they say is entirely generated by artificial intelligence. And in this case, the first, very first episode using voice technology by play Do ht, which I think owns this podcast. They did an interview, Joe Rogan, or as they call him, Brogan

Speaker 8 (01:54:20):
Demi Moore and Ghost.

Leo Laporte (01:54:20):
And a guy that they wouldn't say

Speaker 8 (01:54:22):
So without. It's

Leo Laporte (01:54:24):
Been a long time. Let go here, let me go back. A guy whose name he wouldn't say <laugh>.

Speaker 8 (01:54:31):
So without further ado, my friend who is difficult to describe and wonderful, and I'm so gratefully came on the show.

Speaker 7 (01:54:37):
How's it going? Good to see you, buddy. It's been a long time since I've been on the show. I've missed this. It's always fun.

Speaker 8 (01:54:44):
How's it going? Come on. Tell me about Jobs

Speaker 7 (01:54:47):
<Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:54:49):
These are hey eyes.

Speaker 8 (01:54:50):
It's always good to see you buddy,

Leo Laporte (01:54:52):
Doing an interview. I'm

Speaker 8 (01:54:53):
So happy you came on, man.

Speaker 7 (01:54:54):
Yeah, it's great to be on the show. Your audience is just so different from your normal Apple users and that's a good thing. It's cool.

Speaker 8 (01:55:02):
Well, you know, I was an Apple user way before I did this show. I've been a fan of yours and Macintosh since the 1980s. Hmm.

Speaker 7 (01:55:10):
<Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:55:10):
Well, the lecture is a little figure that out,

Speaker 7 (01:55:13):
Even though Apple was big, it's still

Leo Laporte (01:55:15):
Like, but the voices are exactly right. You think

Speaker 7 (01:55:18):
People who listen to your show are a different group. They're weird. <Laugh>.

Speaker 8 (01:55:22):
Well, that's good. So you must be a fan of the show then, right?

Speaker 7 (01:55:26):
I am. I am a fan. I mean, it's nice to sit back in the car and listen to you ran <laugh>. I've always liked you.

Speaker 8 (01:55:33):
Well appreciate that. And hey, this is weird tie, which hooks

Leo Laporte (01:55:38):
All. Alright, I'll stop <laugh>. It's a little freaky, but it you know, we're, I mean, look, look, obviously it's not there yet, but it's getting there and I think more and more it's just a matter of time before you won't be able to tell the difference between the real Joe Rogan and the real bro Jo. And to bring back somebody from the dead. The, the, if you listen to the whole 19 minutes, there are lots of quotes that I recognize, as Steve said. So I think the AI was train, I'm not sure how they did this, but I think the AI was trained on actual Steve Jobs quotes and actual Steve Jobs audio played out. Ht, which does the podcast, has a whole bunch of voices. So obviously this is basically an ad for their capabilities. But I'm, I'm gonna keep listening, so hook

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:27):
That into what I have. Line 56.

Leo Laporte (01:56:29):
Alrighty,

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:30):
Googlers, who started character.ai, in which in text you are talking with a chap, characters like Elon Musk.

Leo Laporte (01:56:42):
Oh, just what I've always wanted. Hook

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:46):
That into the other ai. And you have a made up Elon with made up Elon's voice talking to a made up g from China

Leo Laporte (01:56:55):
For real. I think we're a few years away from, you know, we'll be doing a story in a few years where I don't know we won't know if we were listening to an actual interview with somebody. Here's Alex Wilhelm. A little conversation he had was ship ai. Weapons are online. There are several on the ship, plasma cannons, rail guns, particle accelerators, energy seals, and several different types of missiles. The ship has several defense systems to protect it from a variety of threats to which Alex Wilhelm says, Are there any threats nearby as we warm up for faster than light travel ship? AI says there are two ships nearby, a small freighter and a large battleship. I have detected the possibility that they will follow us into light speed if they see us leaving. And I have a few other ships I'm keeping close tabs on. This is kind of cool. He's actually creating a sh like a science fiction novel, Okay. Says, Alex, please fire plasma guns. And the particle accelerators is the small freighter before we engage faster than light travel. Plasma cannons and particle accelerators fired. The freighter has been heavily damaged. However, the larger Battleship has now targeted us with its rail guns. I have sent it a stress beacon as the Hyperdrive still has 43 seconds to come online. This is awesome. This is awesome. You could be in Star Trek.

Leo Laporte (01:58:27):
No

Ant Pruitt (01:58:29):
No,

Leo Laporte (01:58:29):
No.

Jeff Jarvis (01:58:30):
<Laugh>. I agree with you, Ed. Okay.

Ant Pruitt (01:58:34):
When, when you brought up the Rogan thing, I thought it was something else. Will Saso is a comedian, Another comedian. Yeah. He started up a podcast. I just had to look it back up. It's called <inaudible>. And it's basically using AI to help pretty much produce the show where they allowed an AI to go through their personal emails, text messages, and social media accounts purchases, and browse history so that it can tailor the show to their specific Oh, that's interesting. And entertain you. I've not listened to this to any of this yet, but they have 31 episodes out there, apparently.

Leo Laporte (01:59:11):
Huh? So, is, is every episodes tailored for somebody else? You know, you personally

Ant Pruitt (01:59:18):
No. No, no. I think it's just saying you as in the listener. Oh, the group of listeners.

Leo Laporte (01:59:23):
Yeah. So give us all your information and we'll make a show You'll like

Ant Pruitt (01:59:26):
No give taking their information, their information. <Laugh>,

Leo Laporte (01:59:31):
Whose information

Ant Pruitt (01:59:32):
Will Saso and Chad? Oh, going through their stuff.

Leo Laporte (01:59:36):
Oh, I get just

Ant Pruitt (01:59:37):
The way this reads.

Leo Laporte (01:59:38):
Okay. Okay. Truth Social will be in the App store and any minute now, Google has approved it. Yes. They've got their moderation working. 

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:52):
Which was, which was the hold up. They weren't allowed to go in until they

Leo Laporte (01:59:54):
Show. And Apple has still not approved it. Google Spokesperson said they first notified Truth Social about several violations of standard policies in their app submission and bared from approval on August 19th two social has responded to Google's satisfaction.

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:14):
I think that's was the funniest story of the week, which is just after Google shuts down the stadia, it, it decides to launch gaming laptops.

Leo Laporte (02:00:23):
Oh, yeah. And I was wondering if you would get all excited about this. These are Chromebooks specifically designed for, Wait a minute, How are you gonna play a game on a Chromebook if Stadia is gone? Bingo. Wait a minute. An upcoming line of Google Chromebooks made in Parship with Acer Aus and Lenovo have been designed with cloud gaming features in mind.

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:51):
But there's, you can't play on a Chromebook. That's what, Well,

Leo Laporte (02:00:55):
A

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:55):
Few must ago, when I asked for games,

Leo Laporte (02:00:56):
You just can't use Google's stadia. You can use Xbox Stadia GForce now, or Amazon. You on Luna

Jeff Jarvis (02:01:02):
Xbox on the Chromebook.

Leo Laporte (02:01:04):
Yeah. They, they're all shipping with three different streaming platforms pre-installed Xbox Cloud

Jeff Jarvis (02:01:09):
Gaming. Oh, is that how

Leo Laporte (02:01:09):
Gforce now? And Amazon Luna. But yeah, you have to think Google planned this a year ago with these companies so that they could say, And now you can play Stadia on a Chromebook. Oops. Oops.

Jeff Jarvis (02:01:21):
Right hand beat. Left

Leo Laporte (02:01:23):
Hand. Oops. These are not cheap, by the way. The Lenovo's 600 bucks. ARS is $650. The Jesus is not yet. 

Jeff Jarvis (02:01:33):
Well, and presumes they must have good screens and, and good processors to be made for gaming.

Leo Laporte (02:01:36):
Well, no, but that's the thing. You don't really need a lot, lot of processing power when you're streaming it. You need enough streaming,

Jeff Jarvis (02:01:41):
Okay.

Leo Laporte (02:01:42):
Display. So the refresh rates are 120 hertz and above. It'll have wifi six or six E high quality audio. Our GP keyboards. Yeah. Cause gamers, you know, like their keyboards would be colorful. But no, these are, you know, they're I threes or I fives, They are eight gigs of ram. They're just not Okay. Not, not super powerful. But they're powerful enough and they have good enough displays. I think it's probably the main, the main point. 16 inch screens. 25 60 by 1500. 120 Hertz. Refreshing.

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:15):
You know, I'm not buying one. I don't come

Leo Laporte (02:02:16):
On

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:17):
Colored screen. Come

Leo Laporte (02:02:19):
On. I mean,

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:19):
Keyboard, <laugh>. I'm too old. It,

Leo Laporte (02:02:23):
It's clearly was designed back when they thought, Yeah. You know, they, it's pretty funny. They're gonna have

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:28):
Something. Google just doesn't know how to, how to birth things and kill things. Forecasting fail.

Leo Laporte (02:02:37):
You put in a, a thing a story for Stacy.

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:42):
So the Washington Post went full moral panic.

Leo Laporte (02:02:45):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:46):
Tour Amazon's dream home where every appliance is also a spy. Okay. Alright. Point taken. Right? And, and so it goes on, You know, my favorite one was, was because you can use your Amazon stuff to open the garage door. You've now given Amazon the key to your house. Come on. Come on,

Leo Laporte (02:03:07):
Girl. I can see one problem right here. You can't have a tree growing on the second floor of a house. <Laugh>, where are the roots going? I mean, there's a problem right there. Washington Post. Yeah. the Echo speaker, what this really is, is an excuse to go through Google device. I mean, Amazon devices. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:03:25):
Amazon devices. And

Leo Laporte (02:03:26):
Complain about it and say, you know what they, what they do,

Jeff Jarvis (02:03:28):
Like, they're complained about the toilet with Alexa integration. You can't get more intimate than that. And what are they gonna do with it? Wells? I regular, I mean,

Leo Laporte (02:03:41):
You and I don't mind, but I can, I think people are rapidly getting kind of fed up with this.

Jeff Jarvis (02:03:45):
Well, that's generally true, but this is a ridiculous substantiation of that. There's fine stories to be done about that, and there's fine stories to put about Ring and Amazon and all that. But this just goes, this is just stupid.

Leo Laporte (02:03:56):
Actually. I don't, I disagree. I think this is pretty, a pretty good example of all the things Amazon is offering. These are not made up products. All of them are real.

Jeff Jarvis (02:04:05):
The smart soap dispenser, We don't know what Amazon could do with it about your personal hygiene, but <laugh>,

Leo Laporte (02:04:12):
But why

Jeff Jarvis (02:04:12):
Amazon is, it needs the head washing data to provide functionality. Come on, come on, come on. We can panic about that. There's so much more. Believe me, there is so much more to panic about in the world right now. People, it's not your soap dispenser and your toilet being connected to anything. Get over yourselves. You don't matter that much. Nobody cares that much about when you wash your hands. And whether you do or do not when you leave the toilet, except the members of your family.

Leo Laporte (02:04:38):
Hey, smart. So

Ant Pruitt (02:04:39):
Weve can snap that as a highlight of you saying

Leo Laporte (02:04:42):
You don't matter that much. Nobody cares.

Cathy Gellis (02:04:44):
<Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:04:46):
It does. The post does say, we don't know what Amazon could do with data about your personal hygiene. Amazon says it needs the hand washing data to help provide functionality. So apparently it is sending information about, you know, my Apple watch. And actually it's a little nannyish. I'm about to turn it off. But every time I start washing my hands, a countdown timer starts. It knows I'm really <laugh>. That's obnoxious. Oh boy. Yeah. And, and then it does a little ab ding when it's 20 seconds. And you know, that's

Jeff Jarvis (02:05:16):
Pretty saying One Mississippi, two

Leo Laporte (02:05:17):
Mississippi. No, you don't have to because the watch is counting for you. What was,

Jeff Jarvis (02:05:22):
We were supposed to sing

Leo Laporte (02:05:22):
Happy Birthday twice. Happy birthday twice. And then, but you know, didn't we learn, learn during the drought that that wasn't the real thread of Covid. That was airborne. Oh, oh, other, other

Jeff Jarvis (02:05:32):
Diseases. Yes. But

Leo Laporte (02:05:33):
Not still wash your hands, I guess. Yeah. Well, probably good to wash your hands, but do you have to wash 'em for 20 seconds?

Jeff Jarvis (02:05:40):
No, I don't

Ant Pruitt (02:05:40):
Think so. You're not a surgeon? No.

Leo Laporte (02:05:42):
Okay. Exactly. All right. 

Cathy Gellis (02:05:45):
Like a surgeon.

Leo Laporte (02:05:47):
<Laugh>. Sorry. <Laugh>. Now see, that's parody. That's, that's protected. No.

Cathy Gellis (02:05:52):
Although doesn't it's, it's been done. I just copied the parody. You

Leo Laporte (02:05:55):
Parody at parody. Doesn't weird al ask permission before he does a song? I think he does. Yeah.

Cathy Gellis (02:06:01):
I think he does. Cuz partly he just doesn't also wanna piss off the people that he's out parroting.

Leo Laporte (02:06:07):
And I think for the most part, people are flattered by it.

Ant Pruitt (02:06:09):
Right. We

Leo Laporte (02:06:11):
Honored. Yeah. Hey, good news Dart work. So you don't have to worry. We're safe. We're safe. NASA's Dart mission, they had a press conference yesterday, successfully shoved the asteroid. The orbital change was even bigger than scientists expected. The double that

Cathy Gellis (02:06:29):
Made me nervous. <Laugh>,

Leo Laporte (02:06:31):
I don't, I

Cathy Gellis (02:06:32):
Don't want, like, we got a result different than what we expected. I really wanted a precision result. And maybe it is exactly what they thought. Just they had a range and it was the higher range. But I, I don't want, like, they,

Leo Laporte (02:06:45):
They

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:45):
Needed 73 seconds and they got, what? 30 minutes.

Leo Laporte (02:06:49):
Wow. It does sound like they

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:52):
An orbit time.

Leo Laporte (02:06:54):
That's the the, the length of time

Ant Pruitt (02:06:58):
Gazillion miles away. Don't they get a little grace?

Leo Laporte (02:07:02):
Cathy's

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:02):
Going through an and Android panic. I was gonna say asteroid. Panic. <laugh>. Well,

Cathy Gellis (02:07:08):
That's all the droids are really bothering me right now, <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:07:14):
So this was just a small nudge. They could do more if they had to. So, good news, Bruce.

Ant Pruitt (02:07:23):
I'm sure Mr. Powell was gonna quit time. I wanted on Friday.

Leo Laporte (02:07:27):
Okay, I gotta ask you this. I'm sorry. I have to ask you this. Did Elon talk to Putin or not?

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:34):
Well, we're not sure because Bremer said that Elon told him that he had talked to Putin, and then Bremer said that out loud. And then Elon came back and said, No, I, he's lying. I didn't. So who do you trust more? Ian Bremer, who heads a whole big think tank around world affairs and nuclear wars, or Elon Musk,

Leo Laporte (02:07:59):
Remer said, Elon Musk told me, probably

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:01):
Said it and lied about calling Putin. So what's the lie that he didn't say he called Putin? Or that he didn't call Putin one way or the other? He probably lied.

Leo Laporte (02:08:12):
He lied to somebody. Yeah. Either Bremer himself or, Well, he lied. Okay. If you tell one person two conflicting things, one of them's not true. Exactly. So he guaranteed he lied.

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:24):
Tomer.

Leo Laporte (02:08:25):
Yeah, that's, Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:26):
Yeah. Good

Leo Laporte (02:08:27):
Logic. Logic shows. All right. I'm just curious where do we stand on the Twitter acquisition?

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:38):
Nothing new. Nothing

Leo Laporte (02:08:38):
New. Nothing. Honey. How about Kanye? I mean,

Cathy Gellis (02:08:42):
He's, he's got a deadline of 28, of 28th to close this thing, or else that trial is gonna go, I think it's a 28th.

Leo Laporte (02:08:49):
Talk about ego. So Kanye West says some absolutely reprehensible things about Jewish people, about black people just, you know, just awful stuff. So Elon calls him and, and says, Oh, hey, I talked to Kanye, or Ye as he's known, and really he's gonna be okay. It's gonna, he, he's, what do he apologize or something? And so we're gonna bring him back to, he's, he's back on, Welcome back. He said, as if he had the choice who Kanye got banned from Twitter and Instagram as if he had the choice. Elon said, Welcome back, Kanye. Like, who's nuttier in this scenario? Yeah. 

Jeff Jarvis (02:09:35):
And you got you. At the same time you have, you have Musk, of course, sucking up to G and China, which didn't do any good. 

Leo Laporte (02:09:45):
Here's what Elon said. Talk to ye today. Elon is,

Jeff Jarvis (02:09:51):
Yeah. The

Leo Laporte (02:09:51):
Ego is, Oh my God. Talk to ye today. Elon Musk for Ye <laugh>. Hi, this is he? Okay. That's funny. He I'm, I'm expressing my concerns about your recent tweet. Yeah, man, I'm taking it to heart. Okay, thanks. I'll, I'll just mention that on Twitter.

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:13):
Yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:10:17):
If this is his idea of how he plan to moderate Twitter, he's gonna call, call everybody,

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:24):
Ask, Hey

Leo Laporte (02:10:24):
Dude, you shouldn't, you shouldn't say that. He didn't even say

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:29):
That was kinda the way I was early, early in belonging days. I'd go after people individually. You know, let's just

Leo Laporte (02:10:35):
Say that. It does, somebody did raise the point, I think the Washington Post that in Texas, Twitter would not be allowed to take that tweet down, right? Yep. He, there was Cathy

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:48):
Right.

Cathy Gellis (02:10:49):
Roll right before we started recording. There was an order from the Fifth Circuit. They are staying the mandate. Oh, good. So the Fifth Circuit decision is not yet in effect. I mean, this is not like, Oh, we're all, we're out of this stopping to worry about it. Just sort of, we can take a breath, but then I think there's gonna be Scottish challenge of it, most likely because this cannot stand because Yes, exactly. This law, if it were in effect, would not only be unconstitutional, but it would be unusable. And yeah, it would put all sorts of companies Twitter, wi a media everybody would be in a bind of like, you can't get rid of the bad stuff that you really need to get rid of. So that's,

Leo Laporte (02:11:31):
I think somebody needs to call Jame Jaffer, who is the executive director of the Knight First Amendment Institute. Which sounds to me like an expert in the First Amendment. Who

Jeff Jarvis (02:11:42):
Says, I saw him last week.

Leo Laporte (02:11:44):
Who says Kanye's tweet is a vial tweet? But there's no question it's protected by the First Amendment. Well, yes, it

Jeff Jarvis (02:11:53):
Can't be. But that

Cathy Gellis (02:11:54):
Not from for it.

Leo Laporte (02:11:55):
Right? Oh, he can't be arrested.

Jeff Jarvis (02:11:56):
It's government. Right.

Leo Laporte (02:11:57):
But he can be banned by Twitter for it.

Jeff Jarvis (02:11:59):
Absolutely. Yeah. Because Twitter has the first amendment right to choose,

Cathy Gellis (02:12:04):
Yeah. Private exoration and refusal to associate that is also protected by the First Amendment. And that is the bit that an awful lot of people seem to be missing. But that's a crux of what is wrong with the Florida law and the Texas law. And a lot of the people complaining about two 30,

Leo Laporte (02:12:18):
What is Jamele then responding to? No one's threatened to arrest Kanye.

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:24):
No. Cause some idiot reporter will say, this is censorship. It's gotten so skewed. Now, I, I tweeted about this the other day, that the right says that speech is censorship. Right? You can't criticize me. You're canceling me. You're censoring me. Right? Well, my speech is my reaction to you and saying, No, you can't do that. And then they're also saying that choice is censorship. Whether you are an editor or a publisher, or a producer or a platform, you can't take down my speech. Well, no. That's why I, I own the publishing house. I get to choose what to publish. No, you don't. You gotta publish it now. And so speech becomes censorship and, and they have no sense of irony about that. And choice becomes censorship. And that's their way to keep their speech up. It's all, it's just a house of mirrors now.

Leo Laporte (02:13:07):
Well, I'm just glad Elon Musk is reaching out to any semis and and

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:11):
Explaining and, and making sure they're okay.

Leo Laporte (02:13:13):
Yeah. To them <laugh>, why it's not Okay. All right.

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:21):
Are you doing a change log or let's

Leo Laporte (02:13:22):
Do a Google change log.

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:25):
The Google change log.

Leo Laporte (02:13:30):
Do you know what BI is? Business Intelligence. Google had its cloud Next conference. This is one many of announcements. Yesterday at the cloud Next conference, Google has said all of its business intelligence projects products will now be unified under the Get ready for this. The name Looker

Ant Pruitt (02:13:51):
<Laugh>. So Google.

Leo Laporte (02:13:55):
So

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:56):
Google. Google. Google. Google. Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:13:59):
Looker. Well, they bought a company called Looker, so they had the trademark. So what the hell? Yeah. So just so you know, Google, we're looking <laugh>. We hear you <laugh>. Yeah. Youtube has decided to now support at username. Yay. YouTube handles. So this is of course namespace used in Twitter and on Instagram and Facebook and everywhere. But in the past we've had to say you go to youtube.com/twi we will apply and I hope we'll be able to call ourself at TWIT on YouTube. Right?

Ant Pruitt (02:14:38):
I think you,

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:38):
We already have

Leo Laporte (02:14:39):
The, we have it the

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:40):
URL

Ant Pruitt (02:14:42):
For people. I

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:43):
Didn't know who you are.

Ant Pruitt (02:14:45):
I have a Vanity U URL already, and I would've assume

Leo Laporte (02:14:49):
Yeah, that's different. No, it doesn't automat well,

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:51):
That, that should transfer over.

Leo Laporte (02:14:53):
Should it, But

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:53):
Don't have a vanity url. You have to apply for a handle and you can't apply for Vanity URL anymore cuz they shut that down waiting

Leo Laporte (02:15:01):
For this to happen. Oh. So there's gonna be a gap of time where you can't do anything about it. Support for handles will start rolling out later next week to protect creators from having their channel names staked by someone else. Youtube notes at channels that already have a personalized url. Yep. So normally you get X 3 7, 9 4 1 9 9. Once you get a thousand followers, you can say, Hey, I want to be slash a Pruitt or slash Twitter slash That's correct. So you got that.

Ant Pruitt (02:15:27):
Yes, sir.

Leo Laporte (02:15:29):
So you will then be asked,

Jeff Jarvis (02:15:30):
Should be okay.

Leo Laporte (02:15:31):
And under, just like you are on Twitter and Instagram.

Ant Pruitt (02:15:34):
Yeah. I'm already that people tag me now on YouTube post and comments. Nice. Just by doing that.

Leo Laporte (02:15:42):
Oh, so it's already working for you?

Ant Pruitt (02:15:43):
Is it already working for me? It almost, it's been that

Leo Laporte (02:15:46):
Way for after a handle has established YouTube will additionally create a matching URL on the form of youtube.com/at handle, which would allow you to market your handle elsewhere on the web or in other media. And if the channel already had a personalized url, it was using for a similar purpose. You don't have to update your links. It all will continue to work. And at some point, everybody should be able to get a handle. Look for notifications to arrive in the next month. We already did the cloud gaming. I, you know, I did some of the change link stuff up front cause I thought it was important. You did. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I like this new feature in Google Meet. It's always done. Recordings of your meeting now, they'll send you transcriptions. In fact, they've done, which

Jeff Jarvis (02:16:34):
She was had for quite some time, right?

Leo Laporte (02:16:36):
Yeah. They've they've did quite a, a lot of stuff in workspace. Users can already save Google Meet calls as video files soon. Get an automatic transcription of their meeting too. It'll be a Google doc. It'll start in English this week. Support for French, German, Spanish, and Portuguese is coming. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. I guess you'll have to you'll have to push a button or something later this month. Google will run, roll out a meat feature that will automatically center meeting participants in the frame of their video tile before they join a call. You can reframe yourself later, but it'll center you. That's nice. There's a meeting room.

Jeff Jarvis (02:17:19):
You can be centered. I'm, I just don't feel very centered. Just

Ant Pruitt (02:17:23):
I don't, I'm always centered.

Leo Laporte (02:17:25):
There's a meeting room check. Well, actually I have a problem with the, the centered stuff because Apple, and I bet you a lot of them center you. So, you know, when we do stuff, because we have lower thirds, we try to get your head like just a little skosh below the top of the frame. But Apple will put you down here in the center of the frame. Oh, right. Which I bothers me. Yeah. It doesn't look right to me.

Ant Pruitt (02:17:50):
It's all about that middle third and the, when you do the lower third, not lower third, the rule of thirds grid. Yeah. And that, that

Leo Laporte (02:17:58):
You shouldn't be in the middle,

Ant Pruitt (02:17:59):
Should go across your

Leo Laporte (02:18:00):
Eyes. That put you in the center square to block you should be up. I also, I

Jeff Jarvis (02:18:04):
Keep on wanting Cathy to get, take that tape down off the wall behind her. There's

Leo Laporte (02:18:07):
A piece I know I keep wanting to, but it's not my tape. So Yeah. <Laugh>,

Ant Pruitt (02:18:12):
We'll fix it in post. When

Leo Laporte (02:18:13):
I went into the site with Soda O'Brien I was a virtual reality character, and they put a blue piece of tape on the wall for her to stare at because Oh, right.

Ant Pruitt (02:18:25):
Because she couldn't see me.

Leo Laporte (02:18:27):
Def No. What's that called?

Ant Pruitt (02:18:28):
Mo? No. Def No, they have no <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:18:32):
She couldn't see me. So she had a, it had the eye line had to be right. Like she was looking at me.

Ant Pruitt (02:18:36):
Mm-Hmm.

Leo Laporte (02:18:37):
<Affirmative>. So she should

Jeff Jarvis (02:18:39):
Roll her eyes at the blue tape.

Leo Laporte (02:18:41):
<Laugh>. She did believe me. Although I have to say she was just on Andy Richter's through questions podcast. And she said very nice things about me, which I was very, Oh, yay. Cool. That's so nice. She's so great. She called me last me. Here's the site open. Now I just wanna point out welcome to the site for that. Here I am talking to her. She's staring at a blue piece of tape. Not me. Stop that nbc, stop that.

Ant Pruitt (02:19:12):
So he should get it

Leo Laporte (02:19:12):
Repaired. All. And I also wanna point out, the reason I was thinking of this, and I was watching this video is because I got a call or an email yesterday from the producer of the show, David Borman, who said, Hey, you want the sign? Look at, see if I can see the sign as it starts to show here. There it is. This big sign, this big li sign. Yeah, You could have it. He said, Do you want that? I have it at my house. What is it, <laugh>? What is the sign? It's a, it's the sign from the TV show that says the site. Let me see if I can find it. Here's another, Okay, here's another. It's a big, it's like, it's probably like eight feet across <laugh>. And he said, Yeah, bring a pickup truck. It's heavy. He said, I don't think, I don't think they wanted at 30 Rock. I know. They don't want it at 30 Rock. Probably nobody at 30 Rock even knows what the site was. Oh. I can find another picture of it. But should I, should I get it for the studio? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Why not? Oh yeah. Where would we, why not? We could put it right there on the brick or I don't know. Or maybe over here. I don't know. We could find somewhere for it. All right.

Ant Pruitt (02:20:17):
Radio, radio corner.

Leo Laporte (02:20:19):
Do you ever, Jeff, do you ever think what's gonna happen? All this junk when I die?

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:25):
Yeah, I do. My wife can't wait to get rid of it all I knew. Probably.

Leo Laporte (02:20:30):
I think they're just gonna pull up a big dumpster out front and just

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:33):
All these books. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (02:20:35):
Mr. Jambe said he's gonna have a sale.

Leo Laporte (02:20:38):
<Laugh>, but you can't. Yeah, but I mean, okay, so that's when I, when I think, should I take this sign? I'm not that far from death store. I mean,

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:46):
So my wife is practically Bre condo. She keeps, but, but more than that, she puts everything into containers. Everything's in the container. Yeah. And so I know I'm gonna get buried in Rubbermaid.

Ant Pruitt (02:20:57):
<Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:20:59):
She put you in a container. Yeah. I mean, in

Cathy Gellis (02:21:02):
Theory that's called the coffin.

Leo Laporte (02:21:04):
But though,

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:06):
It'll, it'll be, it'll have a pop top on it and the Yeah. Oh no,

Leo Laporte (02:21:09):
You, you saw that the Queen was buried in a lead lined coffin.

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:13):
Oh yes.

Leo Laporte (02:21:14):
That's, And they said yes, they do rather struggle lifting that coffin. It's very heavy. But there was an incident some many hundreds of years ago. And as a result the mooch is always buried. What was the, what I liked, I

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:26):
Don't know what the incident is.

Ant Pruitt (02:21:28):
What I liked is what they, that was it is they called the inscription, where they basically just said she died of old age.

Leo Laporte (02:21:34):
Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (02:21:35):
I,

Leo Laporte (02:21:35):
I I Is that what they said? Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (02:21:38):
Yeah. I

Leo Laporte (02:21:38):
Love that. I wanna die of old age. Really, really.

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:41):
Blood prevents Aaron Moisture from building up a preservation.

Leo Laporte (02:21:45):
Okay. Okay. I would think. Well, Charles will be buried in a cardboard coffin. He wants a biodegrade. Oh, good news. California just made it legal. Just turn yourself in the mulch. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:58):
<Laugh>.

Ant Pruitt (02:22:01):
Well, all

Leo Laporte (02:22:01):
Right. So did you know

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:05):
That people's ashes are frequently spread in Central Park? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:22:09):
You found that out? Yeah. I didn't know. Yeah, that's not, I Is that legal? Seems like I suspect. Oh yes, it is. Not legally. Yeah. Oh, it is. They give, it is

Cathy Gellis (02:22:19):
On your own volition. Or do you need a permit? Cuz I

Leo Laporte (02:22:22):
Can't believe, I

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:22):
Don't know if you need a permit, but it's, but it's, Yeah, I just saw

Leo Laporte (02:22:25):
Story. Hey buddy. Yeah. You got a permit to spread those ashes over there. Shit, no one's got permits. New Pixel Buds Pro firmware update rolling out with five Band EQ bug fixes and more. Boy on the brand new ones. Definitely silence on that one. Yeah. On the new ones, Assistant driving mode ditches, Google Maps integration, no longer an Android auto replacement. I'm so confused about this. I don't understand how that works. Huh. In May of 2019, Google assistant driving mode was announced to replace Android Auto for phone screens. Remember Android Auto for phone screens? The launch occurred slowly useless. Yeah. With the previous experience, not going away until this June. So, finally, <laugh>, a couple of months ago, they finally fully replaced Android Auto for phone screens with Google Assistant driving mode. Now they're taking Google Maps integration away, which means it's useless actually, according to an update. Nine to five, Google says Google's actually shutting down the assistant driving mode dashboard. So just add that to the Killed by Google. By Google <laugh>. There you go. That's the beats. Keep coming. The Google change log. Yo boy, that's a big Tiffany. Let's take a little break When we come back. We got APIC of the week. Cathy, you may or may not. I know you're you know you know, you're, you're short term, short notice filling above this. Now you're above all later being in court, she's been barred. But you can, you can, you can pick something. You always pick something interesting.

Cathy Gellis (02:24:09):
I picked something. I think the URL is there, but I was, my computer is struggling, so see if you see it. Okay.

Leo Laporte (02:24:16):
Save it cuz we don't want anybody to know.

Cathy Gellis (02:24:19):
No

Leo Laporte (02:24:20):
Pick of the week coming up in just a bit. But first a word, just a personally from me to you beeching you please begging you to join Club Twi. I know you probably have heard us talk about Club Twi. We started this earlier this year as we realized that well, there are people who watch our shows who don't wanna hear the ads. They don't want to be tracked. And that's kind of a necessity these days in podcast advertising. So we said, Well, what we'll do is we'll give you ad free versions of all the shows, no tracking for seven bucks a month. Then we said, you know, we should throw in some other things. So we created this club, Twi Discord, which has turned out to be amazing. A lot of us are in there chatting about, not just about the shows, but about everything going on in the world and coding and food and cooking and, you know anime and beer and fitness and hardware and Ant Pruitts are fabulous, wonderful community manager.

Leo Laporte (02:25:18):
He puts together events like Stacy's Book Club. We have shows that are exclusive to the club, for instance like Hands on Macintosh with Micah Sergeant and Hands On Windows with Paul Thra. We've got the Untenable Linux Show with Jonathan Bennett, the GI Fis with Dick d Bartolo, Stacy's book club, all of that goes on in the Discord and then goes out to the trip plus feed that trip. Plus bonus content is all kinds of stuff. Those shows. Plus stuff that happens before and after our shows. And just fun things. All of that, all of that for seven bucks a month. And it makes a big difference for us in keeping the lights on. You know, I I, you know, if we, if you have a vision for what Twit might look like five years from now, I think Club Twitter is vital to that future going forward.

Leo Laporte (02:26:06):
So I know mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, a lot of you can't afford seven bucks a month. That's fine. We will always still offer this great free stuff. We don't wanna put stuff, you know, we don't wanna put our best stuff behind paywalls, but we have additional benefits that we understand. If you do pay seven bucks, you know, it's a nice reason to do so. Go to twit, do TV slash club twi. If you wanna know more, You can't buy any of those shows individually for 2 99 a month as well. And there's a yearly plan and there's corporate plans and all of that. So just a little plug for Club Twi because it really makes a big difference for us. Keeping

Ant Pruitt (02:26:39):
The, I had fun doing a stage recently.

Leo Laporte (02:26:42):
Nice.

Ant Pruitt (02:26:43):
Oh man. With one of my members. I was working on a test shot cuz again, I'm trying to pitch the vineyards here for, for clients. And you know, I just walk, walk through my thought process on a stage with some of my members. Nice. It's pretty fun, you know, and I wanna do that more often. It's a great crew. Just hanging out with our members.

Leo Laporte (02:27:07):
Really great group. We're very, we're very fond of our our club. Our little clubhouse, our little virtual clubhouse. Yeah. Thank you Ant for he then making it interesting. Twi do TV slash club tweet. Now let me see Cathy, if I got a link. Yes, <laugh>. Okay, go ahead. Cathy Galles her pick of the week.

Cathy Gellis (02:27:34):
Can you load it?

Leo Laporte (02:27:36):
Can you flip? I have a picture of it. Hail to the, So there was a play called Bly Spirit many moons ago that was about a, a medium and a seance, right?

Cathy Gellis (02:27:50):
Yes. I don't quite remember so much about the plot of the play. The point for doing this is I'm very, very sad about the passing Evangel. Landsbury. Yeah. I grew up watching Murder. She wrote episodes. This was quite important to my growing up. And then, but I include this link because I had the privilege of seeing her perform in Blind Spirit. Oh. Not in the Broadway production, which there was a traveling production that came through San Francisco and she was in it. And this review, this is the review of the traveling production and just such presence. I mean, it sort of skewed the production a little bit because she was a supporting character and the audience wanted to clap every day.

Leo Laporte (02:28:33):
All they wanted was more, more Angela.

Cathy Gellis (02:28:36):
Right. And it was a good production otherwise. And the, one of the people who played the Man is a guy who played who was on Downton Avenues.

Leo Laporte (02:28:43):
Charles Edwards. Lady e this publisher, Yeah.

Cathy Gellis (02:28:47):
Yes. So so, you know, it was nice to see him act too. But I recently also watched Death on The Nile where she was also playing a supporting character and she just steals the scenes every time she's there. And this review was reminding me of, of the play that I saw where she was 89 years old and just owning that stage. And it was a very physical role and she gave it everything. And it was just such a privilege to get to see her, her work craft. She was such a distinctive actress and, you know, played like Jessica Fletcher is really admirable female character. Absolutely tough, smart. But kind and just yes. So I will miss the, the woman who played her and also Jessica Fletcher because I always, you know, Miss Jessica, she,

Leo Laporte (02:29:34):
She was one I wonderful actor. It's amazing that she was able to do a two hour place seven nights a week at the age of 89 is she was, And then to steal the show on top of it. Pretty impressive.

Cathy Gellis (02:29:47):
Yeah, it was, it was really excellent. And it was a privilege to get to see her. And I can kind of see her in my mind a little bit from,

Leo Laporte (02:29:53):
I'm so jealous that you saw this. Simon Simon Jones was also in it, who is a very well known British actor who was in Hitchhiker's Guy to the Galaxy. Wow. I I'm so jealous that you saw this and I love it that she stole the show <laugh> at the age of 89. She was, I saw her in Sweeney Todd. Oh, with, oh, sh that was an amazing production with Oh, I can't remember his name. He was so good. One of my favorite shows of all

Cathy Gellis (02:30:26):
Time. Lynn Caru.

Leo Laporte (02:30:26):
Yeah. Lynn Caru.

Cathy Gellis (02:30:28):
Yeah. He was also a murder. She wrote all the time. They were obviously cast.

Leo Laporte (02:30:31):
Oh, oh really? Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

Cathy Gellis (02:30:33):
Oh, oh yes, yes. Oh, that's neat. He played a very interesting recurrent character. And my understanding, his murder she wrote tended to be cast with, She'd been in Hollywood for so long, so it basically was cast largely by her friends.

Leo Laporte (02:30:45):
I don't think I've ever seen an episode. I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to start watching it. 

Cathy Gellis (02:30:49):
Oh my gosh.

Leo Laporte (02:30:50):
Yeah. Yeah, I saw her and Lynn Caru in one of the best shows of all time. And I knew nothing about, I knew it was Sonim. I love Sonim and it begins so dramatically and so wonderfully ah, I'll never forget it. I'll never forget it. So that's cool. Yeah. I'm a fan too. Sad to, sad to lose her. At 96, the, the same age as Queen. Yes. And my father. And your father Jeff Jarvis. Do you have any other numbers? I have the number is nine one one oh because iPhones and their watches are calling 9 1 1 when people are on roller coaster thinking they've crashed <laugh>. Now mind you, mind you if this happened with me and I was on a rollercoaster, go ahead and send the ambulance. Cause if I'm on a rollercoaster with my fear of heights, I've had a heart attack.

Leo Laporte (02:31:42):
I am. Yeah. Yes. Well, Wall Street Journal said that one, a small town emergency services had in the Warren County Communications Center had received six crash detection calls from people at King I Kings Island rides all from iPhone fourteens or new Apple watches. <Laugh> triggered by the Joker roller coaster at six, Oh, this is another one in Chicago at Six Flags Great America, Chicago into New Jersey. The problem is that this thing's in your pocket and so you don't know and it's like you're screaming, it's loud screaming. Ah. So yeah, 9 1 1 doesn't usually like that, but they've gotta follow it down. The Wall Street Journal version has the audio of the call. It's not that exciting, but it's, yeah, cuz it says there was a severe crash. Not, there might be a severe crash, but there was a severe crash. So there's not, Yeah. Anyway I think it's un unbalance a good thing. Here's the call. This is the phone calling nine one one in. I was taking three rings. Where, where are they?

Speaker 9 (02:33:00):
The owner of this iPhone was their location.

Leo Laporte (02:33:08):
So it's the voice just saying the older this iPhone you can rollercoaster you crash in background, the background, your screams. So this is a fixable problem. Apple, just test it. Add, if you hear screams and, and rollercoaster sounds or you know, just say, Hey, are they at Six Flags? Maybe you shouldn't

Ant Pruitt (02:33:30):
Say, Is that again? If hear screams, then yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:33:34):
Yeah, you, if it's a scream and is a six flag and it's me, I'm having art.com, please come. I love it. 9 1 1 and now and your thing of the week.

Ant Pruitt (02:33:47):
My thing of the week is on, if folks said Aperture, they have their amand addition of lights and this is their more budget friendly version of lights. Aperture makes a bunch of studio lights and l e d lights that are quite expensive, but they're really daum good. And the Aran brand is, is basically competing with the likes of Go Docs. They're a little more expensive than Go Docs, but not by much. And they're nice, pretty, pretty nice. Bill quality, they're not as metallic, so there's still some plastic casing and stuff on them. The reflector is nice. I have their 100 D here. The D stands for daylight color Temperature. They have a couple that are by color, so you can change the color temperature on them. And pretty good pricing on them. And the fans are quiet. It's not super loud when you turn 'em up. The high power, the reflector is definitely different. Seems like it gives you a bit of a narrow beam when you put the reflector on it. So just be mindful of that. But yeah, pretty good price. I think this 100 D is like 200 bucks

Leo Laporte (02:34:48):
And Oh look, you could mount a and

Ant Pruitt (02:34:51):
You can put an umbrella on. Not all of the lights in that range allow you to mount umbrellas to 'em like that. So Nice

Leo Laporte (02:34:58):
Cases raining, right?

Ant Pruitt (02:35:00):
<Laugh>. All right. In cases raining case are rain. That's exactly what, that's

Leo Laporte (02:35:03):
What for. Yeah. <Laugh>. A P U T U R E A. Cher

Ant Pruitt (02:35:08):
Aperture. And then next I was on the mobile filmmaking podcast, SBP mobile filmmaking podcast with Miss Susie Botello, who actually listens to watches to every. Hi Susie. Thank you Miss Susie. Hi

Leo Laporte (02:35:23):
Susie.

Ant Pruitt (02:35:23):
Thanks for having me on and having candid conversation about smartphone photography in particular. And talked a little bit about iPhone 14 and all of it's capabilities. Mr. Scott born has been on there. You know, Mr. Scott Barn?

Leo Laporte (02:35:38):
Oh yeah.

Ant Pruitt (02:35:39):
He's been on there before. It was good. Good chat. So check that out. And lastly, of course, I have to always talk about Family Queen Pruitt's ticks are available. They've started the promotions and so forth because show has just finished. So I know a lot of you twig and twit folks are here in the area because I've bumped into you a couple times. So if you're an area, go order a ticket and check out the

Leo Laporte (02:36:03):
Show. November 18th through December 4th at the Studio Theater. Santa Rosa Junior College, SpongeBob the musical. Would you say it's suitable for children?

Ant Pruitt (02:36:14):
Yes, I've watched it, unfortunately, yes. It's so

Leo Laporte (02:36:18):
Many, many times.

Ant Pruitt (02:36:21):
It's at the Burbank Theater. It was a pretty nice theater too.

Leo Laporte (02:36:24):
And and Queen PR plays

Ant Pruitt (02:36:28):
Sandy cheeks.

Leo Laporte (02:36:29):
Sandy cheeks,

Ant Pruitt (02:36:31):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:36:31):
Okay. I have a question for you. My son, the to style wants to get a Canon cinema and he is trying to decide between the R five C and the C 70. Do you have an opinion?

Ant Pruitt (02:36:45):
Yes. For me, I would go the R five C because you get the, you get both sides to do still. You get the photo. Yeah, you get the photography side. He

Leo Laporte (02:36:55):
Doesn't care because he doesn't do stills. It's just for video.

Ant Pruitt (02:36:58):
Okay. So if you go, But the thing is

Leo Laporte (02:37:00):
He does have an R five. I bought him an R five some time ago, about a year ago. But he wants the cinema cuz he's, it's all about the, the video for him. Right? Well,

Ant Pruitt (02:37:12):
Both of them are really good for video. The only main difference I would point out with the C 70 is the C 70 has a super 35 sensor. So it's gonna be a, a tight crop factor. It's

Leo Laporte (02:37:23):
Not full frame.

Ant Pruitt (02:37:24):
It's not full frame. Mm. But you're still getting good dynamic range and getting the, the dual game door game iso on there. So no, I yeah saw. So it's gonna be pretty good for both of them, but just depends on what you want. So I would've said R five C because you did the best of both words.

Leo Laporte (02:37:41):
I will tell him I said I'd ask you

Ant Pruitt (02:37:44):
Tell him he needs, I need to get him for a chat. So I need get in touch at all. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (02:37:50):
Well he's gonna have some stuff to promote soon.

Ant Pruitt (02:37:53):
Okay. <Laugh>, that's

Leo Laporte (02:37:54):
All I can say.

Ant Pruitt (02:37:55):
Good for him. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:37:56):
Very excited. Good for you. He's doing really well. Cathy Galles, thank you so much for being here. Thank you Cathy. Thank you. Ka Katherine r Galles Squire. She is at Cathy with a c Galles on the Twitter and C gco, c o u n sel.com. She of course focuses as you could probably tell on legal issues relating to the digital age and amicus briefs to her friends at the high court. Thank you so much. It was great

Ant Pruitt (02:38:28):
To get you on calling at Expedia. Was it@expedia.com that you had to call out and get them to fix their crap?

Cathy Gellis (02:38:34):
Oh, they didn't in theory

Ant Pruitt (02:38:37):
Didn't. Oh

Cathy Gellis (02:38:37):
No. Sort of backfill it, but no, that was no joy with Expedia. And then my friend had a similar problem. I don't know what's happened to that service. It is not what it used to be, so. Yep. Oh man. Not

Leo Laporte (02:38:48):
Happy. I did I got suckered by them. They did a search result and sent me to a pretty shady booking site for international travel. So I was very disappointed.

Ant Pruitt (02:38:59):
Oh

Leo Laporte (02:39:00):
No, you gotta be careful. I think nowadays these people, I swear, I swear Mr. Jeff Jarvis, you know who he is, The director of the Town Knight Center for Entrepreneurial Journalism at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York. Following@Buzzmachine.Com. And he's Jeff Jones and order by book at Pit lee slash by Gutenberg the Guttenberg book. When is it coming out? June. So you got plenty of time, don't rush. No, you should rush, preorder, get it. He doesn't even know what fun it's gonna be in yet. We'll talk about that next week. Next week with Kevin Marks and Glen Fleishman, The Gutenberg parenthesis from Bloomsbury. That's a spectacular deal too. Thank you Ant Pruitt. Hands on photography, what you got coming up.

Ant Pruitt (02:39:58):
This week we're gonna talk about color. We're gonna talk about color in your photos and color in your videos. And then I'm not talking about saturation and vibrance, it's just more the mood and how to really use color to, to, to tell the story. I love

Leo Laporte (02:40:12):
That. That you presenting. It's fun. Thank so much from the show. That's fantastic. Thank you. Thank you Ant. Thanks to all of you. We do this week in Google every Wednesday right after Windows Weekly. That's about 2:00 PM Pacific, 5:00 PM Eastern, 2100 utc. You can watch us do it live@live.twi.tv. Chat with us while you're watching at irc dot twi. Do tv. Of course. Club twit members can also chat in our Discord after the fact. Get copies of the show ads supported but free at twi.tv/twig. There is a, this we can Google YouTube channel where you can go to watch the video. That's a good place to go if you wanna share a little clip or whatever that YouTube makes that pretty easy. I guess we're gonna have to see if we can get at Twig cuz I don't Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think it's this week in Google.

Leo Laporte (02:41:02):
So we'd be at this week in Google. I'm wondering how we get at Twig. What is going on in my keyboard. I have to figure that out. Anyway you can also subscribe in your favorite podcast client. Just search for Twig or this week in Google or Twit, probably search for twit. That's the easiest thing to do. You can see all the shows and if, if your podcast client allows for reviews, please do us a favor and a five star review. Thank you everybody. Again, next week Kevin Marks and Glen Fleischman the week following Rabel joins us, which should be very interesting to talk about his new Twitter clone from a guy who worked at Twitter. He'll also have some insight information, I think on Project Blue Sky. And the following week Stacy will be back with a giant cast on her little toe <laugh> on big toe. Is it a big toe or little toe? No pinky toe. Pinky toy toes. Sorry. The little piggy that went. We wewe all the way home. Just a little too vigorously. Thank you everybody. We'll see you next time on TWiG.

Speaker 2 (02:42:12):
I'm

Leo Laporte (02:42:13):
Jason Howell. How do you think your hardworking team? Well with a Club TWIT corporate subscription, of course you can show your appreciation and reward your tech team with a subscription to Club Twit. And that way they'll be informed and entertained. With podcasts covering the latest and technology with a Club TWIT subscription, they're gonna get access to all of our podcasts ad free, The Members Only Discord, exclusive outtakes behind the scenes and special content and exclusive shows like Hands on Mac, Hands on Windows, and The Untitled Linux Show. Go to TWIT.tv/clubtwit and look for corporate plans for completes.