This Week in Google 671, Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for TWIG This Week in Google. Stacy has the week off, but Glenn Fleishman's here. He's always a lot of fun. He's joining Ant Pruitt, Jeff Jarvis. There is a lot to talk about the new bills or regulations in the EU and how they will affect Google, Apple, and all of big tech. That's gonna be a, a big story. And there's a lot to talk about there. Why flat earthers are never gonna change their mind, how they paint ceramics and what to do about meat sweats. It's all coming up next. Yeah, I know. It's time for TWIG! Podcasts you love, from people you trust. This is TWiT.

Leo Laporte (00:00:47):
This is TWIG. This Week in Google episode, 671 recorded Wednesday, July 6th, 2022. The Cake is a Pie. This Week in Google is brought to you by Nomad. Go to nomadgoods.com/TWIG and use the promo code TWIG for 10% off your first purchase of any Nomad accessory. Nomad has Apple watch straps, wireless chargers, ultra durable cables, and more limited time offer. And by Eight Sleep go to eightsleep.com/TWIG for exclusive 4th of July savings through July 10th. And if you're listening after July 10th, use the same URL to check out the Pod Pro cover and save $150 at checkout. It's time for TWIG this weekend, Google to show we cover everything, but Google: Twitter, we cover Apple today. We got a lot of good subjects and we're very happy to say Glenn Fleischman is here filling in for Stacey Higginbotham. Hello, Glenn. Hello. You can't seem to get rid of me. He was showing up a star on Sunday's TWIT, which was great fun. Thank you. And we've saved a few stories for your visit today. So flong away, we also have of course, Ant Pruitt Hands-on Photography. Hello, Ant. Hello, Mr. Laporte. Welcome back community manager at the club. Thank you. And I do owe a thanks to Jeff Jarvis who ran the show as a democracy last week.

Leo Laporte (00:02:19):
It's not that much of a democracy, but Benito, has joined us as our board op he's gonna be, are you gonna be a predator? Benito? Are you gonna do all three? The editing, the producing and the technical direction. Are you gonna do all of that? Oh, not today. Just soon. So we welcome Benito.

Jeff Jarvis (00:02:41):
Got, got a thrown to the deep end last week.

Leo Laporte (00:02:44):
Oh, he was here last week. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, he was in the Jeff the way I

Jeff Jarvis (00:02:47):
Wanna, I wanna thank the folks out there who said nice things on Twitter. About, about my week in, in

Leo Laporte (00:02:54):
Congress. What was with the giant Cheeto though? I heard about that. Huh? That was amazing. Ah,

Jeff Jarvis (00:02:59):
No, it was so we have it in the, in the rundown today too.

Leo Laporte (00:03:03):
Oh, no, no, no. Oh no. Oh

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:06):
Boy got all over the, the big story of the week, which is tech after Roe. And then we, you know, wanted little lighter moments. So big

Leo Laporte (00:03:13):
Bell.

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:14):
Yeah. Announced a 16 times larger Cheeto Tostada

Leo Laporte (00:03:20):
Cheezes-It not Cheeto, I guess.

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:22):
Thank you already by. Oh, would, would be fun though. 16 times larger Cheeto would be fun too. You could float in the pool with it. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:03:28):
Yeah. Jeff, Jeff. And I'll show you I'll show you Benito when you play that. The Jeff is the Leonard tow professor for journalistic and innovation at the city University of New York, perfectly performed beautiful by our choral group who is now going out for cigarettes. <Laugh> we continue with the Boris Johnson, watch Alexander Boris F full Johnson.

Glenn Fleishman (00:03:59):
Oh my

Leo Laporte (00:03:59):
Gosh. He says I will not quit. So that's I know we've lost. All of our British viewers are watching, watching the tube as

Glenn Fleishman (00:04:09):
This. He will fight on the benches. He will fight

Leo Laporte (00:04:11):
On them. I fight them on the benches. I will fight them in the bushes. I will fight them at 10 Downing parties. Right.

Glenn Fleishman (00:04:18):
He's gonna, he's putting the queen in an uncomfortable position, like some kind of chess player.

Leo Laporte (00:04:22):
Oh, really does a queen. How does a queen get

Glenn Fleishman (00:04:24):
Involved? Well, there's this whole issue about dissolving parliament, which if he calls for the queen to do it, she has limited choices and some of which could produce a constitutional crisis about the nature of the monarchy. So she probably won't, but it's a, wow, it's a curfuffle or a do.

Leo Laporte (00:04:39):
This was, this happened in Canada, the pro rogue. Oh yeah. Which is to discontinue a session department without dissolving it. And I remember this was a big thing in Canada cuz the queen is the titular head of the Canadian government as well.

Jeff Jarvis (00:04:57):
Well, is she still situation?

Leo Laporte (00:04:59):
Yeah. It's a common

Glenn Fleishman (00:05:01):
About Jamaica,

Leo Laporte (00:05:02):
Jamaica, Australia. She's got Jamaica. She's got Australia. I think she's a, from a bunch of Jamaica, girl, anyway Monarch, Monarch, Monarch. We will we'll continue to sing that story. Although we will not show any videos of queen Elizabeth and Paddington the bear because this show is still held hostage. No, by the yeah. Still is studio canal says no, no, no, no. You may not show any videos of Paddington the bear with that express written condition.

Jeff Jarvis (00:05:31):
I'm sorry. It's my fault

Leo Laporte (00:05:32):
Of the commissioner of major league baseball. I guess we'll do one Roe story, but just one. But cuz it is still an issue and Google has now said there is this data loophole about location developers can see where you are. So they're gonna stop sending your visits to a variety of places, including abortion clinics. Stop recording those it'll turn off the recording and the developers apparently have an ability to see other apps on the phone. So this is a big deal. Google has allowed thousands of companies to monitor and sell personal data from Android smartphones. <Laugh> it took a further step on Friday to limit the smartphone data that could be used to police new abortion restrictions, automatically deleting location history on phones that are close to a sensitive medical location. But also there's this issue of checking to see whether their apps are installed. So I, I guess they want, that's a little sensitive. I don't think they should have allowed in the first place collecting Google said in March, 2021, we announced we plan to restrict access to this permission. So that only utility apps such as device search antivirus and file manager apps can see what other apps are installed on the phone, collecting app inventory data to sell it or share it for analytics or ads. Monetization purposes has never been allowed. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They just, you know, if we catch you,

Leo Laporte (00:07:12):
So there you have it query all packages will be restricted from July 12th. The other big story and this one, I feel like we gotta get the Internet's lawyer on for this or something, but the EU has now approved two big regulations that will very much impact Google, the digital services act. 

Jeff Jarvis (00:07:43):
The digital markets,

Leo Laporte (00:07:44):
The digital markets act, there are two of them, DMA and DSA. The DMA is more about competition. And I think that's the one that's gonna probably more affect Google, but Google be affected by both of them says that digital service gatekeepers who break the laws for promoting competition. The law says these companies must obtain explicit consent to target ads based on personal data. That's of course completely undermines Google's model.

Jeff Jarvis (00:08:21):
It undermines most media companies. It undermines most of the entire media business. Now

Leo Laporte (00:08:26):
It'll be interesting to see what Google does about this. It requires interoperability between messaging platforms. Of course that's probably targeted at Apple's iMessage, which is very much a closed

Jeff Jarvis (00:08:36):
Well also targeted at, at Android Facebook.

Leo Laporte (00:08:40):
Facebook, me too. Whatsapp. Yeah. Yeah. Whatsapp. Yeah. Although it's good for meta. If WhatsApp can interoperate with Apple's messages, that's very good for meta. Really apple has this monopoly on iPhones with messaging highly

Jeff Jarvis (00:08:52):
Complex.

Leo Laporte (00:08:54):
Yeah. It also says that large platforms must let, and this affects Apple more than Google because you can choose browsers on Android, let users select a browser search engine and personal voice assistant of their choice. Although Google is very much involved because Google pays. It is estimated between $10 and $12 billion a year to apple to be the default search engine on safari on iPhones. Apple does not let any other browser use its own engine. You have to use web kit, the safari engine on iPhone. So really safari has a monopoly on iPhone with everything, but the UI and you can change search engines, but as you know, the default is gonna be always the dominant search engine. So Google pays a lot for that.

Glenn Fleishman (00:09:38):
I think Apple's been quietly building a search engine too. Isn't that a, I mean, if I look at my logs on my server, I'll sometimes see massive queries from apple addresses for various pages of sites interest operate. So I, you know, like so many things at apple, they've got things in the lab that they roll out when they're convenient and think they've probably got enough storage and data capacity to run a search engine if they had to for their customers.

Leo Laporte (00:10:00):
So you can have you can have a robots.txt that would allow apple visiting or block it. That's interesting. I did that. I did not, I, I haven't looked in my logs. I don't lot.

Glenn Fleishman (00:10:11):
I don't. Yeah. I don't know. I sometimes see, I have to I have relatively low end server of the virtual server. So occasionally people go get out over zealous and I have to put in some blocks and I right. Have software. That's like, Hey, apple just requested, you know, 50,000 pages. And I'm like, oh, they probably next to not be

Leo Laporte (00:10:28):
Doing that. I had no idea they were spidering. That's very interesting. Well,

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:31):
Did, did you know about, I did. I didn't know why this has been around for a while. I didn't know what op common crawl

Leo Laporte (00:10:36):
I do not know about common crawl.

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:38):
What is that? Common crawl.org is a, an open crawl of the web. And I'm not saying Apple's gonna use

Leo Laporte (00:10:44):
That. Anybody can access it,

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:46):
But anybody can access it.

Glenn Fleishman (00:10:48):
Oh, interesting.

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:49):
Isn't this really interesting. Yeah. This is because I've been playing a lot with the GT three and writing about Lambda and all of that. This is the kind of stuff you use as the

Leo Laporte (00:11:00):
For your data set

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:01):
The data set. Right. Thank you. And so I'm not saying that's that, but, but, but crawling used to be this, this high art and difficult barrier to go over for functionality of other applications. I think it's, that's such a big

Leo Laporte (00:11:15):
Deal. I think it still is. I think Google,

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:17):
I think so the level of quality you got this, yeah, there

Leo Laporte (00:11:20):
Really are only two search engines, Google and Bing. Everything else is derivative. I mean, you can go to duck dot go. They

Glenn Fleishman (00:11:29):
Say that laughs you said Bing and

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:32):
One and a half. I always laugh right here. B just came off windows weekly. So he has to suppress no, no, his natural of don't don't you

Glenn Fleishman (00:11:42):
Have a don't you have Jonathan man's Bing song. Just queued up to go at time. I should

Leo Laporte (00:11:46):
Come on should right? Whatever his song of days

Glenn Fleishman (00:11:49):
Binging, Bing bingo, the

Leo Laporte (00:11:50):
Internet it would be, be meaningless if it weren't the default search engine in, in Microsoft windows. And I think, because again, the tyranny of the default people don't change things yeah. Being is still pretty important. It's not, I mean, it's, you know what Google does not want being not to succeed because it that's the same reason. Yes. Microsoft wanted to try stuff. Yeah. Google can, Credly say, oh, we're not a monopoly, your honor. Okay. Even in the EU where they are much more dominant, Google's only about 80% of the browser market. I think it's only, I have a funny percent in the us.

Glenn Fleishman (00:12:27):
I have a funny, I don't know if it's exactly a technical question. I mean, we've all been around the block a few million times and I feel like it shouldn't be that hard to make a search engine. And, and I don't mean that in like this facile, well, there's not that many. It's not that big a deal, but the internet kind of stabilized, right? There's a lot of storage storage, relatively cheap, computational powers, relatively cheap. There are companies out there with piles of money who don't know what to do to reinvest it. I actually don't understand why somebody, I mean, apple is a likely candidate, as I say, but it's, it's not an intractable problem the way it was when you literally couldn't buy enough servers to stick in racks, fast enough to keep up with the growth of the net. And a lot of sites are programmatically driven. Now they're, you know, database driven. So when you go to Amazon, it's, it's a whole different matter now than when it seemed like a million static pages. It's a, you know, 500 million database driven pages. So I, I don't know. I feel like there's something missing. Is there not enough money to

Leo Laporte (00:13:20):
Extract? You got a billion dollars a year, Glenn cuz that's the estimate how

Glenn Fleishman (00:13:24):
Much it would cost. We could ask Elon Musk. I think he's probably so there

Jeff Jarvis (00:13:27):
Are so you're also, but you're also dealing with spam. You're dealing with spam. There are

Leo Laporte (00:13:30):
Companies

Jeff Jarvis (00:13:31):
To do this, to Intuit the content, the, the, the, the topicality of the content. It's not just true.

Glenn Fleishman (00:13:37):
There's more, but don't you think there's people enough, computer scientists have been minted enough. AI work. I mean, is there enough work involved? It's doable.

Jeff Jarvis (00:13:45):
Yeah. It's expensive. Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (00:13:46):
Yeah, yeah. But expensive at the scale of where you have trillion dollar companies and Microsoft's engine is not great, even though the company's been executing a lot of other ways. Very well, Bing is not great. And duck do go is kind of a weird, the fact that it's emerged so much because of privacy issues in a world, in which there are a trillion dollar companies that could throw a billion dollars a year at a problem, if they felt like there was a return. I don't know. I feel like I'm missing a piece here.

Jeff Jarvis (00:14:11):
Another way to put it. Glenn is what's the next generation of search.

Glenn Fleishman (00:14:14):
Oh

Jeff Jarvis (00:14:14):
Yeah. So I think, I think what you're talking about is search as we know it. Yeah. Like, like, like phones has been static for a while.

Glenn Fleishman (00:14:21):
You're totally

Jeff Jarvis (00:14:22):
Right. And, and you know, we're old enough having been around the block a few times, as you say, <laugh>, we're old enough to remember the advance that Google was on fast and on alt Vista at all. Right. because of its, but, but what was different about it was of course, page rank was about seeing, understanding the world differently. And, and I think that there's, there are frontiers to be had when you get to things like quality or relevance or authority that are much harder problems to, to attack, which I would hope that Google would be the one attacking. Cause I don't think they're really company set in their ways, but, but is search done is kind of what you're saying or are there new frontiers?

Glenn Fleishman (00:15:00):
No, that's a it's. I mean, that's where you get into Siri and, and voice assistance where maybe the, the issue is I mean, it's nice. I, I still left because I've, you know, I've got an iPhone, I'm a very apple committed person and I'm trying to get Siri where it likes sitting around watching TV, the family, and somebody asks a question I'm like, oh, ask Siri. And Siri gives me, allows the answer. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna launch my Google app because I know when I use voice recognition on Google, it's responsible even better than if I typed it in on the Google app. And I get the answer I want. I mean, so that's kind of, it is Google feels more advanced in that sort of query, even though apple. I know really. I mean, there's a lot of companies that would love to be the master of that new domain. Right.

Ant Pruitt (00:15:38):
Well, you, you're saying there's a lot of companies that would love to be the master who are some of those companies, cuz there's only gonna be a handful of them that can afford it. Number one. Yeah. And number two, is it a big enough return on their investment? Google is making a ton of money. Why would someone leave Google? If there's a new search engine that's out there.

Leo Laporte (00:15:59):
I think that's one of the reasons there's all that conversations about what's next because nobody wants to go head to head against Google. It's not merely the billion dollars a year. You'd have to spend to spider than that. There's also, Google's been doing it for 20 years. So you have a huge amount of track record historic.

Jeff Jarvis (00:16:16):
The queries are your value. Our queries

Leo Laporte (00:16:18):
Are the value. Yeah. So, so I think probably, and, and by the way, to get back to our original subject with the EU, getting involved with the EU and getting involved in regulating all of this, you might, you might think twice before saying I'm gonna plunge a billion dollars a year. Plus whatever software development costs are to do this brave says they're doing a search engine. Duck do go says they're doing a search engine, but none of these attempts I think really compete with Bing and Google by the way, just so you know, I looked it up Bing Google in the us is a 70% market share. Oh, being is 13.3%. Maybe this is, this must be global. Cuz BYU is in there at 12 and a half percent and Yahoo still around at 2%. I don't know if that's even fair to say because Yahoo is based on on Bing. But Google has held pretty steady for desktop. Now that might be a little bit different if you look at mobile, in fact, we can do that. I think device type change that

Ant Pruitt (00:17:26):
Google is not stressing

Leo Laporte (00:17:28):
Mobile. Wow. Google's even more dominant mobile almost almost 95%. Okay. Nevermind man. <Laugh> never nevermind.

Glenn Fleishman (00:17:39):
All right. I guess the question, I mean, it's just kind of one of those things about like why does time travel exist? Well, if it did, we probably would've already seen time travelers, so maybe you can have another good search engine, one that competes with Google, cuz it would've happened by now, before they cause you'd

Leo Laporte (00:17:51):
Have to kill your grandfather. That's why. Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (00:17:53):
It's the Google grandfather paradox. Sure.

Leo Laporte (00:17:56):
<Laugh>

Glenn Fleishman (00:17:57):
Don't Google your grandfather.

Leo Laporte (00:17:58):
No, I've asked that question. It's a really good question, Glenn is why, why isn't there competition and what is clearly a very profitable if Google can afford to give apple 12 billion a year, just so that it's the default search engine on iPhones. It there's a lot of money, a lot of cash. There's a lot of cash flow being driven by a, a browser clearly though, I think it's fair to say, and this is Google's been in trouble for a while, favoring its own properties. And that's one of the things that DMA is particularly there to fight against. This is of course in this way it works in the EU because of complaints from, you know, remember Google shopping, people complain about that. Yelp complains about Google reviews, that kind of thing. So it comes from competitors, but it is now official. The digital markets act, the digital services act only affects platforms with 45 million monthly active users. So it's pretty much aimed at Facebook. And Twitter, I guess Twitter might just skate in under that. If Google had Google plus maybe I don't know. <Laugh> <laugh> so the the DSA puts responsibility on platforms to police and take down illegal content.

Leo Laporte (00:19:23):
The problem is what is illegal speech? This is what, what of course Elon Musk has been trying to figure out

Jeff Jarvis (00:19:30):
Well that that's, you're giving him more credit than he is do, but yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:19:34):
<Laugh> Google and apple both are gonna have problems with their app stores because of the digital markets act. This can be very interesting now the store, one story I saw from Reuter said the EU has approved these regulations, but hasn't funded them. And so enforcement may lag the fines are significant. The fines for violations of the digital markets act up to 10% of global revenue for the digital services act 6% of global revenue. That's billions obviously, and enough, unless,

Jeff Jarvis (00:20:05):
Unless you, you are bad, then it goes up to 20%.

Leo Laporte (00:20:07):
Yeah. If you do it again. Woo. So, but the question remains, you know, GDPR wasn't enforced right away. Yes. But did have its impact. Didn't it?

Glenn Fleishman (00:20:17):
Well did it though. I, I was reading an article. I wish I could remembered immediately just a few days ago about the impact of GDPR and that there were a lot of initial complaints. There was the perception something would change and then very little is actually happened. I mean, some people blame it partly on the pandemic because it produced kind of, you know molasses flow in the EU, which was focused on other things. But did the GDPR do anything, but give us more disabled access to EU residents from resources that weren't GDPR compliant and put more accept all these various cookies messages, like even more complicated ones on our screen. I, I don't know that I would love to find the list of the fines. I think in the end, no, one's been fined extremely. And I think some complaints are now four years old in the system without having been fully acted upon including some of the early

Jeff Jarvis (00:21:03):
Ones. And I also saw a story. Maybe it's the same one you saw that? I can't find it either. I thought I bookmarked it that it basically benefited Google. That's all the small guys, you know, as happens in these regulatory moments the capture is the big guys can afford to deal with whatever it is. Okay, fine. We'll deal with it. But, but new competition is, is harmed.

Leo Laporte (00:21:30):
I

Glenn Fleishman (00:21:30):
Found is a wired magazine. How GDPR is failing from may Matt Burgess. That's the story. And, and I think that was the conclusion. I'm sorry, Leo.

Leo Laporte (00:21:39):
I have to say, I might disagree with that because for instance, we wouldn't have the California privacy protection act without GDPR, it emboldened California legislator to, to, to follow suit. I don't, I think it's UN I don't know if failing is the right word. It's also early days. Things move very, very slowly. I mean, this is one reason Google probably doesn't have to worry about the DMA and the DSA so much right away, cuz it may take a decade to litigate this all and these big companies absolutely will fight it every step and

Jeff Jarvis (00:22:14):
Each, unless I'm wrong here, each country will do its version.

Leo Laporte (00:22:18):
That's the other thing

Jeff Jarvis (00:22:19):
What's happened with other things. And so, and so they'll be litigated separately.

Leo Laporte (00:22:22):
It's so complicated. Yeah. But there have quite a few I think there've been quite a few actions on, based on GDPR that have been taken by the Netherlands by France. I mean, I think that these things are happening. They're just not, it's not the sky is falling. It's taking a while.

Glenn Fleishman (00:22:42):
I should say actions. I should divide that because I think the thing this article focused on and that that's what reminded me is back when the GDPR passed, you had individuals and some groups file complaints immediately. And some of those complaints four years later remain completely unresolved. Right? So that was so the penalty part may have lacked, but I'm, I am totally, I will, I will back up on my words because as we know in 2018 and this happened in successive years, two other things have happened. Similarly, a lot of the big companies, double click and Google and advertising networks, Microsoft's advertising division. They had to completely retool what they were doing to be as compliant as possible. So even if they, they responded have not gone through yeah. The complaints have necessarily gone through, but they changed their entire method of doing business to the extent they thought they had to. And so the question is, do they have to do more? And the complaints process was supposed to provide a check on that. And I don't think the complaints process was working, but the incentive of there is now a law in place that will affect you. You need to make

Leo Laporte (00:23:37):
Change well from the same wired article, Luxembourg is fined Amazon's 746 million euros. That's not an insignificant amount. Luxembourg

Jeff Jarvis (00:23:45):
Luxembourg.

Glenn Fleishman (00:23:46):
Well, every Amazon has its operations. Ostensibly they probably reap, you know, a hundred billion in revenue is recorded in Luxembourg or something. Right?

Leo Laporte (00:23:54):
Yeah. Ireland fired, what's filed find WhatsApp 225 million euros last year, both decisions under appeal. And that's what happens is it drags on? So I, you know, I, in some, in some, we, we go back and forth on this show all the time, Glenn, about mm-hmm <affirmative> what the, what the, what the remedy is for big tech. We talked on the show on Sunday about the negatives versus the positives of tech. And of course that's something Jeff's always reminding us that the, the net is probably positive of big tech. And these and the, and the prosecution of these things is very slow, but we'd have to do something. I don't think big tech should, should get to decide what's okay. And what's not okay. Right.

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:44):
We, you want government to,

Leo Laporte (00:24:45):
Yes. That's our, I speech want speech. No, no. I want society to, and government's different is the arm OFCI well,

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:53):
No government government is, is interested parties and we have a first amendment for a reason and I'm glad we do well then

Leo Laporte (00:25:02):
Is not right now. So how would society enforces that? If so you stipulates through,

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:07):
Through the market through norms, it's slow, it's difficult, but it's the way, it's the way it's happened since get ready folks, get your, get your glass ready since Guttenberg,

Ant Pruitt (00:25:19):
<Laugh>

Glenn Fleishman (00:25:19):
Drinking here.

Ant Pruitt (00:25:22):
That that's how we do on this show. Mr. Glenn,

Glenn Fleishman (00:25:26):
Find some type

Leo Laporte (00:25:27):
<Laugh>. I, I feel like you're right. I mean, government's imperfect, but it is

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:31):
Dangerous. Government's dangerous and I'm not, I'm a Democrat. I'm not a libertarian. Let be very clear here. When it comes to speech, look, what's happening in Florida. And look, what's happening in Texas where they're trying to impose noxious speech ISN, where, where the, the governor of Florida is trying to tell teachers what they can and cannot say where in Texas they wanna tell teachers, they can't say slavery. It has to be forced relocation. That's when government gets involved in speech

Glenn Fleishman (00:25:58):
Forced relocate, I missed that literally inconvenienced,

Ant Pruitt (00:26:04):
But I'm guessing Mr. Laport would play devil's advocate here and say society. It is, is influencing the government. Well, yeah. I mean, societal norms potentially influencing government,

Leo Laporte (00:26:16):
I guess you could. I mean, geez. Having great faith in the invisible hand of the free market is probably just as foolish as having great faith in.

Jeff Jarvis (00:26:28):
I'm not saying I'm faith in it. I'm just saying it's what, it's, what ends up happening that efforts to, I've got a whole chapter in the book about this efforts to censor almost inevitably lead to unintended consequences and, and, and ill well

Leo Laporte (00:26:41):
Government regulation and does not have to to mean censorship. In fact, this DSA and this DMA seemed not to be about censorship, but about trying to keep it competitive for smaller companies. Right? That's

Jeff Jarvis (00:26:53):
Different from speech.

Leo Laporte (00:26:55):
I didn't say anything about different. I saw, I didn't say anything about speech. I'm severely saying that it is the realm of the appropriate for society to express its desires from these companies through government action, through regulation. That is the most direct means. We have the force market forces aren't necessarily very effective and norms. What the hell you talking about norms?

Glenn Fleishman (00:27:17):
Can I throw another log on the fire here, which is just that the latest trend has been to use citizen enforcement through civil action. So, which

Leo Laporte (00:27:24):
Is horrible. I agree. Right.

Glenn Fleishman (00:27:26):
Tech technically enabled by government. Yeah, but it's civil action and then the individuals are involved and there's monetary damages typically, right? Yeah. And in California, if somebody is on the pro like a second amendment Maxist track, you can look to California and say, well, you know, if you like say the restriction of speech in some areas, the restriction of certain constitutional rights through private lawsuits, while in California may impose a law that would allow people to Sue over certain aspects of gun ownership on a private basis using the same principle and have the same outcome. So there's, it's a double edged sword there too, as if the government enables individual action sort of pursue as an arm of government. You know, and the, the California privacy act is you have to have a stake there, right? You have the, the law, like the, you know, the Texas abortion law and the California has proposed like gun related law.

Glenn Fleishman (00:28:14):
Those both give you standing just by, you know, being a member, somebody in the state, right. But the California privacy act, you have the standing because you've been, you know, you want to get information from a company, a company's done you harm. So that direct connection gives you both a reason to do something. And a reason for state mechanisms to act partly on your behalf, right. And a company to be penalized for it. But I think we're moving to an era in which private actors may be in enabled to take essentially quasi-governmental action by using lawsuits, which is, I don't, I don't think it's

Leo Laporte (00:28:45):
Great. I don't think, I think we all agree. That's a terrible idea. <Laugh> but

Glenn Fleishman (00:28:49):
It's being tried out hasn't Supreme court doesn't seem to have an opinion on it yet, which is

Leo Laporte (00:28:52):
Also terrifying. I think it's my understanding that that was the intent of the Texas legislature is to end around the Supreme court. Right? Yep. They don't have to do that anymore. Thanks to the row, the, the, exactly. So there was a

Glenn Fleishman (00:29:06):
Look when the soldiers are being, when we start dealing with fourth amendment, right. Is a fourth amendment, right? The, the quartering soldier in your house is then you're gonna have

Leo Laporte (00:29:13):
Complaint. Then we're gonna have a problem here.

Glenn Fleishman (00:29:15):
We do not talk enough about the fourth amendment.

Leo Laporte (00:29:17):
I might have a spirit bedroom, quartering

Jeff Jarvis (00:29:19):
Women trying to get abortions in our house

Glenn Fleishman (00:29:21):
Instead. Oh yeah, exactly. Oh, exactly.

Leo Laporte (00:29:23):
So Jeff, is your, do you feel it's your entire reliance on, on reigning in big tech should be

Jeff Jarvis (00:29:32):
No

Leo Laporte (00:29:34):
Norms.

Jeff Jarvis (00:29:34):
I was going on my, my speech rant. I thought that's what you were talking about. No, but I, there, there was a great paper by, by James doer at the Rand corporation in the eighties, in which he argued looking back at, I'm gonna do it again. Folks get ready the early days of print and Gutenberg. Oh. That, that countries that tried to control print fell behind societally fell behind in, in, in, in many ways. And he says that speeches, the internet is filled with special things. Unintended consequences. Speech

Leo Laporte (00:30:06):
Is a very special thing and I,

Jeff Jarvis (00:30:08):
Speech is special. But even beyond that government, I mean, I, I, I, GDPR, I think you're right. It's causing other things like California, but GDPR is clumsily and badly written who and has issues.

Leo Laporte (00:30:19):
Who, who look how do we, let's say, can we all agree that we should control our data and not, not big companies. We should have a say in what happens to you? What does

Jeff Jarvis (00:30:30):
That mean though? Leah?

Leo Laporte (00:30:31):
It means

Jeff Jarvis (00:30:32):
You buy something on Amazon. Yeah. You buy something on Amazon. Amazon has a right to know what you bought. You are in the, with someone that's. So for you to say, I own that. Well, no, you only own

Leo Laporte (00:30:42):
Half. That's fine. But if my internet service provider is selling a list of websites I visit to Amazon. I don't, I should have some there. I should have some control over that. Right.

Glenn Fleishman (00:30:54):
Also, arguably you could do something like proxy buying. Like what if I'm not suggesting that we put this into effect, but it's kind of like drop shipping. What if we could order from Amazon, they never saw who we were. All they knew was a charge, had been approved in an anonymous fashion. And when they ship sent it to a shipper to go out the shipper, wouldn't disclose to Amazon my address. I mean, that's not infeasible and it's actually done for certain kinds of purchases.

Leo Laporte (00:31:16):
I, I think honestly, you mm-hmm, <affirmative> in most peop cases, people's interests that Amazon knows you buy it. Right. So that you could return it so that you could complain about it,

Glenn Fleishman (00:31:26):
But it's PLA, but it's plausible. You could have an entirely proxy based system, which Amazon, I understand. I mean, that's an extreme,

Leo Laporte (00:31:31):
But

Glenn Fleishman (00:31:31):
I think, but it's not infeasible.

Leo Laporte (00:31:32):
I think I would go the middle ground, which say, it's fine for Amazon to know about a transaction. I have, that's a first party transaction. That's fine. Yeah. It's the collection of data by third parties in the selling on to other people that people are really concerned about. Let's let's let's can we agree that that should, there should be some means of us as consumers controlling that there isn't currently the only way to stop that would be regulation? I think I can't, I don't have a choice of which is S P I use that's a monopolistic market. So I mean, there's, I don't think there a lot of

Jeff Jarvis (00:32:10):
It came to,

Leo Laporte (00:32:11):
I can't see, look at, I can't use the free market to say, oh, I don't wanna use Comcast. I don't have a reasonable choice.

Jeff Jarvis (00:32:18):
Well, that, that's a different question. That's a, that's, that's a monopolistic

Leo Laporte (00:32:22):
Wax mean

Glenn Fleishman (00:32:23):
Why can't that

Leo Laporte (00:32:23):
Be fixed? Why not fix that first? Well, I agree. That should be fixed as well. Some other stuff, but I, but I also think that I should also have the right to tell Comcast, stop looking at what I'm doing. Yeah. We have, we have, just, as you talked about Glenn, these like dropshipping we have mean technical means to, to hide our tracks from our internet service providers. But yeah, I think it should be illegal. Let's all right. Let's use something that's even more topical. Shouldn't it be illegal for a, a, a period tracking app to sell that data on to third parties, not just Tampax, but maybe some citizen in Texas that wants to Sue, should that not be illegal? Are you saying market forces and norms should stop that? Cause it's not doing a good

Jeff Jarvis (00:33:07):
Job. I would imagine that it, that if it gets out that that any such app is doing that, then every single user would stop using it. So market forces would probably be ahead of a two year legislator process. That's all, I'm not saying you can't pass a law fine, but, but if, if, if it's found out that that's occurring and that they're doing an app to serve women

Leo Laporte (00:33:30):
I guess what it comes down to you're right. But what comes down to me is it feels like there are wrong things to do, like an app developer. That's wrong for them to do that. And that it's it, that it's appropriate for government to make a law against something that's wrong. And I, and I kinda want them to, and it shouldn't be incumbent on, but you

Jeff Jarvis (00:33:55):
Watch the hearings. It shouldn't

Leo Laporte (00:33:57):
Incumbent on me to figure out that, oh, this is happening. It's it's opaque. It's not obvious it's happening. The only reason we know it's happening is cause we have a strong, independent press that reports on it, otherwise we would not know. And right.

Jeff Jarvis (00:34:13):
And that's your best protection, Leo. I mean, again, you watch the,

Leo Laporte (00:34:16):
I think it's all of the

Jeff Jarvis (00:34:17):
Above and there idiots, I think

Leo Laporte (00:34:18):
It's all of the,

Jeff Jarvis (00:34:19):
If you're gonna depend. Right. So good, fine. Agreed. Cause if you're depend upon government,

Leo Laporte (00:34:24):
No, but you want, it sounds like you take that weapon out of

Jeff Jarvis (00:34:28):
PR. No, I don't wanna take that weapon out and we've done, we've done this on the show. I'm like war. I, I think there's different models for it because this is rapidly changing world. And when I was on the transatlantic high level working group on content moderation, freedom of expression on the internet the, the, the group which included, you know, former head of DHS, former president of the Estonia Estonia, a lot of, a lot of researchers spar than I am. What we came up with in the end was a, was a recommendation of, of accountability through transparency. The, the, the form of the regulations should take is to demand that platforms hand over data to researchers. So we know what the impact is. Now. I went, I, I go one step beyond what the group did. And I think that they should be required to make statements of what they warrant to their users.

Jeff Jarvis (00:35:20):
And they can be held accountable for it as the FTC would hold you accountable for, if you make a microphone and say that it will make you all us all sound like Leo IOR and how happy and it doesn't then you can, the FTC says, we're not gonna tell you how to make a microphone, but you lied and we're gonna hold you accountable for that. So the question becomes, yes, government should hold you accountable, but to what, to what standard and, and, and, and, and to have one standard for all online companies, doesn't make as much sense as saying they should be held accountable for the warrants they make, and they should make warrants. And they're not making them,

Leo Laporte (00:35:58):
Sorry, we dragged you into this Glenn. <Laugh>.

Glenn Fleishman (00:36:01):
I love this stuff. I love this

Leo Laporte (00:36:02):
Stuff. It's ch it's challenging to figure out what you do about it. And I think my point of view is coming from this kind of injured party, but it's wrong. And they should be, and there ought to be a law. I figure's done, I fear that that Jeff is kind of the Robert McNamara of of, oh,

Glenn Fleishman (00:36:22):
Geez. <Laugh> oh,

Leo Laporte (00:36:23):
Geez. That you're kind of the the best and the brightest establishment saying, oh, no, no. Let the people decide, and it's not gonna, nothing's gonna happen. And we're gonna end up in a quagmire.

Glenn Fleishman (00:36:38):
I've already heard the Rand Rand corporation cited. Now, Robert max, are we in the, like in the sixties? <Laugh>, it's been ban of our Bush on the show, his opinion on, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:36:49):
I, I just remember this notion of this, of the, of the best in the brightest, right? The bureaucrats who ended up getting us into a lot of trouble in the

Glenn Fleishman (00:36:59):
Sixties, win

Jeff Jarvis (00:37:00):
More remind you that was government, by the way, that was

Glenn Fleishman (00:37:02):
Government <laugh>, but it was government, but coming from by the red corporation. But

Leo Laporte (00:37:06):
I see is your attitude, which is this academic attitude of you know, well, you know, we've gotta consider all parties. It's, it's, it doesn't feel right to me, does it, but maybe I'm coming from a very moralistic point of view where no,

Jeff Jarvis (00:37:22):
No, I am too.

Leo Laporte (00:37:24):
I feel like it's, it's just wrong. And there oughta be a law.

Glenn Fleishman (00:37:28):
And

Jeff Jarvis (00:37:28):
Obviously, so you got, but you've gotta, you've got, you've got to work off empirical data. You've gotta show what the harm is. You've gotta define the harm. You've gotta define the impact. Yeah. Then you've got to design the interventions. The problem is we're designing interventions. Like every kid should have immediate literacy training when it's not the kids who were the problem it's grounds.

Leo Laporte (00:37:49):
I agree with you the world. So do you use the data, tell that these two regulations in the EU are misguided?

Jeff Jarvis (00:37:57):
I think their roots are in many ways, misguided based on presumptions and get ready. An get ready, get ready. I'm cuing you up here. In some cases, even moral panic,

Leo Laporte (00:38:12):
It's stuck. The moral panic is stuck.

Glenn Fleishman (00:38:14):
Oh no. Do you have more panic video? It won't move. Yes, we do. There we go. Oh. Oh, moral panic. Sound.

Jeff Jarvis (00:38:20):
Somebody doused the flame. There

Glenn Fleishman (00:38:21):
It is. Oh, there we go. Wow. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on. There you been one up. You've been one up as compliments of Mr. Nielsen there.

Leo Laporte (00:38:33):
Somebody got into RER S got, whoa,

Glenn Fleishman (00:38:37):
Let's run that again.

Leo Laporte (00:38:38):
Crushed it. That is a very nice with a picture of Jeff Jarvis floating above the

Glenn Fleishman (00:38:44):
Jeff Jarvis ring. I want that on. I want, I want a gift of that, please. This is Jeff Jarvis on the McLaughlin group this week, feeling about this.

Leo Laporte (00:38:51):
Wow. He's even got your lips moving. Awesome. So awesome. Right. If you're only listening to the audio, I don't know what to tell. You's so awesome. Can we, we tweet that or something so people can see it cause that we got to tweak that that's fantastic.

Glenn Fleishman (00:39:03):
That's where one used to be. You were one of the hosts of the McLaughlin group group, right? Jeff. And you be Jeff. Jeff told this on your opinion on wrong

Leo Laporte (00:39:12):
Jarvis. Wrong. wow. Okay. Thank you to Anthony Nielson. Wow. That, that stopped everything. Yeah. Good

Glenn Fleishman (00:39:20):
Work, good

Leo Laporte (00:39:21):
Work. I, I, my general feeling and maybe it's a, a little Pollyannaish of me is that the EU is attempting to do the right thing. This is a work in progress. There's no, you know, you're gonna have unintended consequences. You're gonna have misfires, but they're doing something be coming from the right spirit, which is, we need to reign in these completely unregulated companies that are amassing more and more power in our society. And there needs to be at at least at some point, somebody's saying, well, maybe that's a bridge too far. And I think that that's appropriate for government to do. It's not gonna be perfect. It needs to be refined. It needs to be improved. But I feel like this, the, these two acts are actually a pretty good step in the right direction personally. And it's, and I think they're well founded. I think they're in well intended. We'll see. I like Marita Steger. I know I'm one of the few

Glenn Fleishman (00:40:20):
She reduced so great. UK story was the EU reduced roaming fees, you know, years ago across cellular carriers. Cause they're essentially meaningless. It was huge. Yeah. Someone was complaining recently. The EU is reimposing roaming fees on the UK. That's like, no, you left the EU fools nuts. So you'll have roaming fees when you go to the EU because you, the UK are no longer part of

Leo Laporte (00:40:41):
The, that's a wonderful thing. Once you're in the EU, you can have a SIM card from any EU nation and you pay the same amount. I think that's a, and

Glenn Fleishman (00:40:50):
It's Carish the roaming fees were, oh, the ridiculous,

Leo Laporte (00:40:53):
By the way, impacted every us traveler in, in the EU as well. Yeah. So I really think that's a perfect example of it is a good example of

Glenn Fleishman (00:41:00):
Regulation. I found a PO Hey, I found it positive. That's a,

Leo Laporte (00:41:02):
You know, yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (00:41:03):
Thank you. One what

Leo Laporte (00:41:06):
I mean, I, I understand that the, the, the method of government using government to, to achieve any of this is fraught with peril is I wish it time consuming. I wish it did. And I wish it weren't so corrupt. I agree. But I don't know what else we have to be honest. And I guess it's, for me, it's the only tool we have. I mean, people, women now, no, we have all the tools know that period trackers are, are selling their data. They don't know specifically which one. But they know that because of good journalism on the part of I don't know who it was, the verge or pro Publica, but

Ant Pruitt (00:41:42):
I, I don't know. I just fear the, the, the idea of an overcorrection from our government. You know what I mean? The, the one to step in to try to make things right for us, these citizens. But I think at some point they may go too far and release,

Leo Laporte (00:41:57):
Of course, that's of course a risk that's of course a risk. Yeah. And the founders were very afraid of government and rightly so. The other op the other choice though, is to let big tech self regulate. And I think we don't even have to guess if that's a risk, right. <Laugh> we know what they're gonna do if they're allowed to do whatever they want.

Glenn Fleishman (00:42:17):
Or the other thing is they're having regulation in each state too, right? The fact that companies have to comply to California regulations, which are quite, you know, some of the best in the country now are some of the tightest people, COPPA privacy in between. Yeah. So, but that means that, you know, if my state Washington were to pass some very restrictive rules, some companies, maybe our market's not big enough, maybe they'd they'd exit, but you know, as with like emissions climate or sorry emission controls in California, which was allowed to, and may still be allowed to set its own standards it's a big enough economy that it could have a ripple

Leo Laporte (00:42:48):
Effect. We drove the auto industry. Yeah. And, and yeah, and the EU is doing that too with, with carbon emissions and so

Glenn Fleishman (00:42:55):
Forth. So California gets the lead in that regard too. And some of the states have been ahead on it, but then there's this patchwork, it's the usual argument. There's a patchwork of legislation that makes it hard for small businesses and businesses don't care whether they pay the fees or they ignore it or they comply, but sometimes they comply and it changes their policies, Countrywide or worldwide.

Leo Laporte (00:43:16):
And there's always unintended consequences. Yeah. That's the nature of law. I think Jeff, if I rephrased this argument to say, instead of big tech, if I said big oil or big tobacco, I don't, I don't think we would have. You wouldn't say, well, let market forces determine.

Jeff Jarvis (00:43:34):
I'm not saying we position all. What I'm saying is what, what, what doer said in the ran paper was actually the opposite. He said that that what regulation does is it tries to for stall unintended consequences, what we should do is get to the unintended consequences as quickly as possible. He was saying the opposite.

Leo Laporte (00:43:49):
Yeah. So let's everybody let's make cigarettes completely legal. Let's eliminate libertarian.

Jeff Jarvis (00:43:56):
I'm not gonna say that let's eliminate, I am gonna controls. We don't know. We know what we, we didn't know what cigarettes were for years and years and years. And they were illegal until we got the science that said, uhoh, there's this crap's killing people. And then finally we did something about,

Leo Laporte (00:44:08):
But big tobacco.

Jeff Jarvis (00:44:09):
And we're making presumptions about the internet being cigarettes, which is wrong and is dangerous to the freedoms that it brings to people who were too long, not included in the institutions of society. That's my argument. It is an effort to control this change agent in society. It's that, that, that, and if you look at

Leo Laporte (00:44:29):
It's too early, cuz we don't laws. We don't know Texas

Jeff Jarvis (00:44:32):
In California, Florida. It's trying to say, we want to control these, these voices. We didn't hear before. Very conveniently. Now we're hearing them. We don't like

Leo Laporte (00:44:39):
Them five years ago. We a control Jeff. But these now big tech is so big that it's, it's got to the point now. Well you, for instance, Glenn asked a great question. Why aren't there other search engines because the incumbents are so dominant and so big.

Jeff Jarvis (00:44:54):
So my response was that's fighting yesterday's battle. I think Facebook is gonna, it is the next MySpace. I think Facebook, which was gonna take over the world by the way, Royal society.

Leo Laporte (00:45:02):
When you made that argument five years ago, Facebook was the answer. Oh no, no. Because social search is the next big search that didn't happen. I might point out mm-hmm

Jeff Jarvis (00:45:11):
<Affirmative> well, no it did. To the extent of lack lives matter. And me too, it wasn't, it wasn't what was planned for by Twitter or, or Facebook. But people used the platforms because they finally had the mechanism to speak.

Leo Laporte (00:45:23):
But not as again, you're gone to speech, we're talking about search, not as, so

Jeff Jarvis (00:45:28):
I think,

Leo Laporte (00:45:29):
I think by the time we realize how much power big tech has in our lives, it will be too late to regulate it.

Jeff Jarvis (00:45:38):
I tell you when Microsoft has this browser everywhere, God knows what power they're gonna have. It's just gonna

Leo Laporte (00:45:43):
Be, we have to, I think you can make a strong argument that the DOJs lawsuit, again, Microsoft in the late nineties did in fact have a very saluatory effect. Oh no. It

Jeff Jarvis (00:45:52):
Was the you that, that killed Microsoft. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:45:55):
They, no, that was the browser ballot, but it was the DOJ suing Microsoft about bundling. Oh yeah. And, and the consent decree that Microsoft agreed to and Microsoft backing down on its embrace and engulf and devour business strategies that allowed Google to thrive that allowed the internet to grow. So I think there's a, and you could look at, at the at and T breakdown, which

Jeff Jarvis (00:46:21):
Is the market coming.

Leo Laporte (00:46:22):
You can look at the, I mean, there are plenty of good examples of this and of, of regulation really working and improving things. And I, I just worry that it's good. We're, we're rapidly approaching a time when Google is so powerful that no regulation can reign it in. We may already be there to be honest with you.

Jeff Jarvis (00:46:40):
I, I, I, you know what, I think, I think that we're gonna find that the ad market. So, so Google is already losing ad share. It and Facebook are no longer half of the ad digital ad market. Who are they

Leo Laporte (00:46:51):
Losing it

Jeff Jarvis (00:46:52):
Too? Amazon?

Leo Laporte (00:46:55):
A bigger fish.

Jeff Jarvis (00:46:56):
Who else? Well, no. And then other company I'm forgetting, this is on this, this was on the rundown last week. It's in there, it's in, it's in my things from last week. So funny you should, if you were just Helio, not galling off around the world in places that we couldn't figure out where you were.

Glenn Fleishman (00:47:12):
See, I was wondering that because the big battle right now, like, you know, Google and Facebook cry Apple's was that Google and sorry, Google and Facebook have been crying about Apple's changes to advertising, you know, to how it third party charge

Leo Laporte (00:47:28):
The yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (00:47:29):
The track and all, all its lockdowns. And you know, I'm not gonna cry on Facebook's behalf because they can't target me well enough. I mean, I don't use Facebook now, but they can't target people well enough. So they, they can't charge as much to their advertisers. And I feel like there's a coming battle is you know, if we watch market evolution, maybe the government is government often to your point, Jeff, the government gets involved late and it takes a lot of time and they often maybe produce the wrong solution for the point we're at. So, you know, there's arguments that Microsoft, the antitrust lawsuit dragged on so long as reduced enough in scope that by the time it had happened, maybe the sheer nature of the suit caused change and caused market, like just the government suing, gave the position for competitors. I remember how real networks came out of that.

Glenn Fleishman (00:48:13):
And you know, not that it thrived necessarily, but they had this huge payout eventually for Microsoft. They had they were able to promote this alternate media player, which broke the hegemony of Microsoft's media players. And it changed the whole market even before any settlement had happened, even before Microsoft had agreed. So governments often come in late in the process, but initiating action can cause some change. And I think right now we have a battle between apple, which as a marketing stance. I mean, I think it's legitimately technologically implemented, but as a marketing stance is all in M privacy and you have Google not negative on privacy, but it's not their paramount concern. Their big mm-hmm <affirmative>, their big revenue is, is advertising. They have to balance that. And you have Facebook, which I don't think really cares much about privacy except as chin music. And so they don't, you know, their whole goal is to continue to achieve these massive profits they've had in the past. And I think that that's gonna be the fight is over how these companies use that marketing message and whether they're successful enough. And you know, when Google, for instance, implements the version that it intends to do eventually of essentially blocking the same kind of tracking that Apple's already put in place.

Leo Laporte (00:49:23):
I do, I do remember though saying <laugh> many, many years ago, watch out when apple is as big as Microsoft, they'll be just as rapacious. And I think that then is proven to be the case.

Glenn Fleishman (00:49:36):
Well, it's a different way though. It's funny because apple is so insular. Microsoft wanted to Microsoft like eight and beat down the landscape around it. They

Leo Laporte (00:49:46):
Would buy all the competition. They, they used to do what Facebook does today, basically,

Glenn Fleishman (00:49:50):
But they would go to every neighboring principality and say, you have a really nice place here. You want us to raise your castles? And so salted to your fields, you probably don't want that <laugh> and apple doesn't necessarily do that. Apple says, apple says we've raised our round part. So high, no one shall ever enter. Right. Which is a very different model. I'm not saying it's necessarily less repless it doesn't seem to it when you're inside the castle. And you say those are really nice tall

Leo Laporte (00:50:13):
Walls. Yeah. Yeah. You don't get to be a 2 trillion, almost 3 trillion company. So without <laugh> without a little rapaciousness

Jeff Jarvis (00:50:20):
So you answer your question, go beta and Google are losing market share to TikTok apple, Walmart and Amazon,

Leo Laporte (00:50:28):
Not an improvement. Walmart, if you ask me, but okay. Well,

Jeff Jarvis (00:50:32):
Yeah. I mean, the other thing that's going on is, is, is an advertising changes, right? So we've talked about this in the show, in the past, you know, best buys selling floor is now a marketing, right? Instacart is an advertising.

Leo Laporte (00:50:45):
I have to say, I'm a little surprised that Google and Facebook are failing because it feels to me they have such a dominant position just because of the, what they, or, or are they, are they not growing as fast? Are they actually shrinking?

Jeff Jarvis (00:50:58):
Oh no, they're losing share. They're

Leo Laporte (00:50:59):
Losing share. They're losing share. They're losing share shrinking. And

Jeff Jarvis (00:51:03):
No, the ad market is still going up. But, but, but

Leo Laporte (00:51:06):
I, oh, I see. Believe the pie is

Jeff Jarvis (00:51:09):
The advertising

Leo Laporte (00:51:09):
Market. So there are more pieces. Google

Jeff Jarvis (00:51:13):
Are that's that's gonna turn around. Yeah. I, I sat in a dinner before the pandemic. The last time I sat in a dinner ever with a bunch of advertisers. And once the once the very good wine was passed out. This was put on by a PR company. They said that do they care about newspapers? They admitted, no, we don't care. We build our own relationships. Now, the only thing we care about newspapers for is our stock price. The rest of we just don't, we don't care about media,

Leo Laporte (00:51:39):
Right? When you think that's gonna have more pieces in the pie, are you seeing there's just more options. It's just the ad market is growing. It's a much bigger pie.

Jeff Jarvis (00:51:48):
Mar the economy is growing thus bigger. The ad market is growing. So there's more to, to share, but they're getting a smaller share. Does make

Glenn Fleishman (00:51:54):
Sense. Leah was saying the pie has been built higher. If I remember correctly.

Jeff Jarvis (00:52:00):
It's

Leo Laporte (00:52:01):
Pie cake.

Glenn Fleishman (00:52:04):
What's

Jeff Jarvis (00:52:04):
The turd equivalent of a cake and pie.

Leo Laporte (00:52:08):
Oh, there

Glenn Fleishman (00:52:09):
Is. Oh, you do a baked there. You do a bake Alaska. There has a bake Alaska with a cake on the outside. I think too. Right. You can do a, you can do what they call a frozen Florida. I think it was the scientific American have this recipe. And you use liquid nitrogen to have a hot cake inside an ice cream shell. So just do two of those baked Alaska, frozen Florida. Oh, good.

Jeff Jarvis (00:52:27):
Good. Since we're off topic anyway, Leo 1, 3, 3

Leo Laporte (00:52:31):
Since. No, no stop. Just stop. Okay. <laugh> just

Jeff Jarvis (00:52:34):
Stop. 33 is, is a nice little moment from your earlier British discussion.

Leo Laporte (00:52:39):
I just wanna show you the pie cake.

Jeff Jarvis (00:52:42):
Oh, you found, oh, you found it what is the pie,

Leo Laporte (00:52:45):
Which is a pie inside a cake. Oh my is you don't have to choose.

Jeff Jarvis (00:52:51):
Oh, and is making this.

Leo Laporte (00:52:52):
Yeah. Oh, it's that

Jeff Jarvis (00:52:53):
Shot making

Leo Laporte (00:52:54):
I'm buying. Look at that. <Laugh> look at that. There's three pies inside that one. Is

Glenn Fleishman (00:52:59):
That truly, I don't know if that counts. That's like three layers with the fondant. It's

Leo Laporte (00:53:04):
Kind disgusting. Fondant holds it together. Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (00:53:06):
I don't know. Or maybe not even fondant, but

Leo Laporte (00:53:09):
Something bra plastic. This with some vanilla ice cream. Isn't cherry pie. That's that's like a, I dunno what,

Glenn Fleishman (00:53:16):
I dunno. You could do a pride cake like that, but I feel like it separates the layers too much.

Leo Laporte (00:53:20):
Oh, pie CA is the answer to

Glenn Fleishman (00:53:22):
Pie. CA dirt

Leo Laporte (00:53:24):
Need

Glenn Fleishman (00:53:25):
Try frozen Florida. First.

Leo Laporte (00:53:27):
I think I like liquid, whatever. Frozen Florida is

Glenn Fleishman (00:53:30):
Liquid nitrogen. You make a hot cake and then you use, you use liquid nitrogen to make the ice cream on the outside. Boom. Ooh

Leo Laporte (00:53:36):
It's. And is the cake still hot inside or? No,

Glenn Fleishman (00:53:38):
The cake is hot inside. And you have ice cream on the outside. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:53:40):
So it is very much like a baked Alaska then.

Glenn Fleishman (00:53:43):
Yeah. It's inverted.

Leo Laporte (00:53:44):
Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (00:53:44):
With sci with science. Oh yeah. That's why it was in I think it's scientific American, right? Yeah. It's 

Leo Laporte (00:53:50):
This is kitchen counter culture, but

Glenn Fleishman (00:53:53):
Most most food is sci. Most food is scientific.

Leo Laporte (00:53:56):
Food is science as the great Harold what's his name? Mitchell would tell you. All right. I wanna take a break and talk about our sponsor, cuz we have a wonderful sponsor. And I know, you know the name of this sponsor Glenn, because you probably have some of their stuff. I have stuff from nomad all over my house. They they started as a Kickstarter project, about 10 years ago, they were gonna build ultra rugged minimalist tools for the 21st century that would seamlessly integrate into your everyday carry. In the past nine years they have expanded, they do cases. They do apple watch straps. They do wireless chargers. They have some great wireless chargers. I'd show you the one that does the watch and the phone the mag safe charger, but Lisa stole it and it's it's at home on our bedside table.

Leo Laporte (00:54:47):
<Laugh> it's so good. They make premium wallets. They make passport holders and all their stuff is crafted with if it's leather with H leather, which is the best leather from the H tannery in Chicago, which has been around since 1905 and anybody who loves leather knows when you say H that's that's chef's kiss an unparalleled blend of quality and consistency. What's nice. This is a brand new case on my iPhone, but this H leather case will age over time. I should show you my old case. It develops this nice patina. The leather age is so beautifully and it's, and it's unique because only, you know, this now that only you have this particular case. And of course, because it's great H leather, it smells fantastic. The wireless charging solutions for home office and bedroom AR air pods, as well as apple watch as well as iPhone.

Leo Laporte (00:55:43):
This is the base one with MagSafe. It's great. It's so heavy. It's right there on the table. It's not going anywhere. You put the phone on that and it just boom it, you know, it, it, you could, I don't know. I probably can. Let me see. Yeah, you could turn the phone upside down. The charger upside down the magnet's so strong. That's awesome. They now have G AC adapters. We love these gallium nitrate technologies that give you very powerful, 30 and 60 wa or 65 wide adapters in a very small place. One of the things I love about nomad is the, believe it or not pay attention to the charging cables. When you get 'em 'em you'll see the, the crew at norm ad was just done with crap charging cables that fall apart every few months, they decided we're gonna engineer the best cables around double braided Kevlar, outer sheath, strong metal, alloy connector, housings.

Leo Laporte (00:56:39):
These have been engineered for extreme durability and everyday use. They're also a climate neutral certified brand. Let me show you, I, I haven't put on my watch cuz I, I wanna keep it for the for the ads. But as soon as the ads are over, I'm gonna take the steel band out. This is a beautiful nomad steel band for your apple watch. Just gorgeous, easily, easily remove the links to get its size. Exactly right. It's a bracelet that has a very strong connector. It's not gonna go anywhere. That is gorgeous. I'm I'm a nomad fanatic nomad is and always will be a company that prioritizes design and quality over everything else. One of the most important aspects of nomad when designing new products is they use the highest quality, longest lasting materials available. I love it. When you get something like a case, a charger a watchband, you can feel the quality you could feel, you know, it's gonna last, you know, it's made with the best materials.

Leo Laporte (00:57:43):
It's just, the quality is right through it. They design all their concepts from the ground up. They're not white labeling existing products. There's the charger. The base one max at Lisa took <laugh>. I said she could have it. She needed a good charger. She said, my watch keeps falling off the apple charger and the phone keeps slipping off the, the apple chargers. I said, honey, this is the answer, the base one max charges, both. And it's, it's really a nice connection. 10 years they've been doing this. You're having a 10th anniversary sale. They launched with that simple cable on Kickstarter 10 years ago, they have grown and they are doing such great work from July 6th, which is today through July 15th, 30% off, sitewide virtually all nomad products. What look at that, a leather cover for your apple TV remote now that's quality that's class. That's the kind of thing you'd see in a high end mansion, right?

Leo Laporte (00:58:43):
<Laugh> 30% off site wide, no coupon needed just simple, easy savings to help celebrate 10 years in business for nomad. I love that. Go to nomad goods.com/TWIG. These savings will end on the 15th. So hurry on over. Don't miss out. If you're listening after July 15th, we can still get you 10% off your first purchase of any nomad accessory using the nomad goods.com/TWIG and the promo code TWIG. And that's better than nothing. But if you're here listening before the 15th, get that 30% off right now after the 15th, 10% promo code TWIG. But whatever you do, please go to nomad goods.com/TWIG. So they know you saw it here, right? We want the credit nomad goods.com/TWIG. I've been using their stuff for 10 years. It's the, it's just superb, superb quality. Now that's the, that's the market at working as it should. <Laugh> the free market giving you great products. Are we outta curiosity? Web three's going great. Right? What's web three. Just checking. Yeah. What

Glenn Fleishman (00:59:58):
Not good. That's how good it's

Leo Laporte (00:59:59):
Going. Yeah. Yeah. It's going really, really good. Just, I like to go to the website just once in a while. See what Molly has to say about the latest.

Glenn Fleishman (01:00:08):
Oh my God. Did you read the New York times had a fantastic op ed or what do they call it now? An essay. Sorry. It's an essay. Excuse anymore. Yeah. It's the essay section and they had a great piece by a crypto pro crypto person just going like every currency's had its trouble. We've had a tool pan, like all the, it was like the most like the things you tell yourself at 3:00 AM when you realize your bank account is empty and you owe owe people a lot of money and they're about to knock on the door. Well, this is,

Leo Laporte (01:00:35):
Is normal.

Glenn Fleishman (01:00:36):
This

Leo Laporte (01:00:36):
Suitcase, this is what happens. It's just the way it is. Hey, it happens to Caesar and those coins he had, you know,

Glenn Fleishman (01:00:43):
I mean, look, this is the only thing in history. That's had no value attached that said no purpose whatsoever. And so of it's gonna have its ups and downs. It's okay.

Leo Laporte (01:00:52):
<Laugh>

Glenn Fleishman (01:00:53):
Put more money. So

Leo Laporte (01:00:54):
Did tulip bulbs, you know, they

Glenn Fleishman (01:00:56):
Look, you know, tulip bulbs, you read Michael or what's his name? The there's the book about the history of tulips and potatoes and so forth. I'm blanking it. The guy wrote this book, he wrote wrote a whole bunch of interesting books. It'll come to me, but the tulip mania, those bulbs were actually worth a lot of money because the broken, the disease that caused the variation in tulips produced flowers that were extremely valuable. There was actually inherent value. I think tulip mania has been overstated for centuries. I mean, it was mania.

Leo Laporte (01:01:27):
Unlike people was real value in the tulip bubble,

Glenn Fleishman (01:01:31):
People were willing. So do you remember the difference between like the pets.com crash and like a later crash, like pet.com was, was shipping, you know, 40 pounds of kitty literate with, for, for less than it costs them to ship and less than it costs them to buy it. Right. I mean, pets.com and some of those early companies, they had no actual revenue to match. The outflow was all venture capital funded. So when the next sort of bump hit like 2008, you didn't have the same failure occur among dot coms. And in fact, they drew strength from it because they had real revenue. People are like, oh, it's just the same pattern against like, no it isn't. So then I think when we saw the pandemic hit and you saw this incredible surge in value in online companies, you know, like zoom or like Amazon, or like apple, it was based on that strength that they were not the vaporware that we're used to in say 2001, we've evolved to a time

Leo Laporte (01:02:22):
Actually. And ironically we now get our kitty litter delivered by mail.

Jeff Jarvis (01:02:27):
Yeah. So Mike

Glenn Fleishman (01:02:28):
Here's my little, the gross

Jeff Jarvis (01:02:29):
Was right just early.

Leo Laporte (01:02:30):
This was too

Glenn Fleishman (01:02:31):
Early, Mike Mike think gross. It's my, you know, my little resistance against Amazon as I order things that I think cost them more to ship me. <Laugh> then it's

Leo Laporte (01:02:38):
Worth that's all right. They'll make it up in volume. It's fine. Exactly. They gotta model, they gotta model.

Jeff Jarvis (01:02:43):
We actually bill gross, who started that company start, you know,

Leo Laporte (01:02:47):
Idealab.

Jeff Jarvis (01:02:47):
Yeah. Yeah. Did a study once of, of what makes a company, what's the factor that's gonna make a company most successful leadership and so, so forth. And he said it was timing. It is.

Leo Laporte (01:02:59):
It's absolutely right. If I were to launch TWI today, we would have

Jeff Jarvis (01:03:03):
It seriously. You'd you'd be bought by Spotify.

Glenn Fleishman (01:03:07):
Yeah. I'm sorry. It's Michael pollen is the author author. I wanna actually give him Michael wonderful author. And he's written a lot more about food lately, but if you wanna understand what Johnny apple seed for instance was really doing, not what we were taught in school. You gotta read one of his books.

Leo Laporte (01:03:21):
He almost said Michael pollen. And I thought, well, I don't know. Did he write about the history of tulip bulbs, but I guess he did.

Glenn Fleishman (01:03:26):
I think it's one of his

Leo Laporte (01:03:28):
Books. Yeah, really great. I love Michael pollen. We quoted him the other day actually. Oh, that's fine. I think yesterday we were talking about it. So not much to say, except that all the crypto exchanges are failing flailing. Oh my gosh. Going down,

Jeff Jarvis (01:03:48):
I've got a question for you, Leo.

Leo Laporte (01:03:50):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:03:51):
Why, if they were, if they were exchanges with a whole bunch of money in their air quotes bank, why were they all borrowing money? And

Leo Laporte (01:04:01):
Well, they wanted to make more that's they leveraged. So first up rise, which is cryptocurrency investment fund lost 99% of its customer funds when they tried to short Luna during its collapse in may whoop Voyager digital filed for bankruptcy, a crypto broker suspended withdrawals a week prior says it's filed for bankruptcy doing due to the prolonged volatility and contagion in the crypto markets. They also had invested in three arrows capital, which was another bankrupt crypto fund defaulted on a long from Voyager worth 660 million. You see the dominoes falling. The problem is many of these cases. If you've got custodial wallet with these exchanges, you may be a creditor. You may not. It's not like a bank. Ain't no D I C here, you may be out. And so it's just, Domino's I think falling coin loan, crypto lending platform reduces account withdrawal limit. That's like you remember you know, Jimmy short, he went to the bank and he tried to get his money out. Couldn't get you're run F

Glenn Fleishman (01:05:16):
You're an Ft. Isn't in Leo's house. It's an Ann's house. It's in Jeff's

Leo Laporte (01:05:19):
House. Yeah. It's in

Glenn Fleishman (01:05:20):
Ever when I went there, there's no NFT there though

Leo Laporte (01:05:23):
Only can withdraw 500, $5,000 a day down from the half million dollar a day limit. But they tried to reassure customers. Rest assured your assets are safe. <Laugh> crypto lender, vault, suspends withdrawals, considers restructuring. I can go on and on and on. That's only this past week. It's it's really, it's scary. It's a, and then there's the hacking. So many NFTs have been hacked. You know, I should BR I I've been getting emails from people about board apes. There is a video going around on the on the YouTube claiming using by the way, documentary techniques pioneered by by Steve Bannon or maybe by GS, before that, I don't know. But showing how board ape is actually racist. And actually, as I look at the sketches of board ape, they are kind racist.

Glenn Fleishman (01:06:24):
What, oh, and the, my 15 year old comes to me other day and says, board ape, this is the conversations we have in my household board. Ape is based on Nazi iconography. That's right. And I'm not really, I'm not paraphrasing. That's pretty much my 15 year old. And I said, oh, come on now. I know it's terrible. I hate it. It's a bunch of it scams it's whatever. And they're like, no, no, I watched the video. I'm like, all right, what's the source. I have not watched this yet. But they showed me a link from it that shows an almost exact trace over of a piece of Nazi iconography that I was unaware of with the skull here it is. And the board. Yeah. And you're like,

Leo Laporte (01:06:54):
Wow. So this

Glenn Fleishman (01:06:55):
Is,

Leo Laporte (01:06:56):
And you're the Waffen SS. This is the the the death skull.

Glenn Fleishman (01:07:01):
I mean, I lost the whole thing, but you're like, it's, there's some things are there's coincidence. And there's people trying to force you know, square pegs into round holes. And then there's things we're like, oh, if they didn't do that intentionally, then why is it such a perfect match? Come

Leo Laporte (01:07:16):
On. It's a perfect match. There are the same number of teeth. That number resolved to eight off Hitler's birthday, birthday. Yeah. There is a lot of iconography. Maybe it's a coincidence.

Glenn Fleishman (01:07:30):
I never thought getting on the internet in the eighties or whatever it was called. BITNET maybe then. Right. I never thought it would wind up being so many Nazis. I, we don't beat those.

Leo Laporte (01:07:40):
Yeah. You know, I thinking there's a lot of Nazis anyway, and they just they're showing up

Jeff Jarvis (01:07:45):
Your permission now

Glenn Fleishman (01:07:47):
Didn't

Jeff Jarvis (01:07:47):
I think we're the point where anything up to saying what the Nazis said and what the KKK says is now free game. And, and, and the idea is to be as offensive as possible and right. How do you, how do you fight that when that's the goal? No, you can't use norms. You can't say, oh, shame on you for saying that. Ha ha don't you know, lib farts, don't you cancel me. That's where we are now. And we don't havet have, have a

Leo Laporte (01:08:15):
Strategy. Yeah. Was

Glenn Fleishman (01:08:17):
Lip Fard don't cancel me. It should be a buffer sticker. Jeff. I think <laugh> in quotation marks because we're being ironic.

Leo Laporte (01:08:25):
You know, I don't have an, a strong opinion one way or the other, if you watch the video I, I, it's fairly convincing, but it's also, it's done in such a almost hypnotic over the top propaganda style conspiracy way. Yeah, yeah. That it is, you know, I let's

Ant Pruitt (01:08:46):
Just say, we're talking about, it's talking about it being racist. Is that what you're talking?

Leo Laporte (01:08:50):
Well, they make, they make the case that it's racist. You should, you know what aunt you should probably watch. It just sounds like you're skeptical.

Glenn Fleishman (01:09:00):
Yeah. I'm I gotta watch the

Ant Pruitt (01:09:01):
Thing I'm of the mind. I know that racism is this, but I'm also of the mind that could, gosh, if you look for racism, you could find it hard enough. You'll find it. Yeah. So I'm not always just out there looking for it.

Glenn Fleishman (01:09:12):
Well, I'm

Ant Pruitt (01:09:14):
Farm. I concerned this black microphone that I'm staring at right now. Cause racist.

Leo Laporte (01:09:18):
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I watched the, I watched the video and there's some pretty it's there's a lot of coincidences. Let's put it that way.

Glenn Fleishman (01:09:31):
Well, but that's the, that's the, you could find coincidences. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:09:34):
Exactly.

Glenn Fleishman (01:09:35):
I'm I went until I watch it. Is it really worth, I, you take a look my 15 year old, my 15, oh, sorry. My 15 year old recommends it. So, and they're pretty smart. So right. They're savvy. It's interesting. Raising teenagers who are as savvy as you pretend to be. I would say, as I pretend, I pretend to be, cuz we have these wild conversations about like you know, what's reliable, Jeff, this is sewing your wheelhouse too. It's like, what's reliable information. How do you figure out things that are authoritative? They're like, well, I saw it in a video. I'm like, well, you know, as well as I do that, YouTube is full of unreliable things. They're like, yes. So what I did is, and then they describe a methodology of which they feel they crosschecked it, but are all the sources using a crosscheck? It good? I don't know. So we have very interesting media and credibility conversations. Because my children raised

Ant Pruitt (01:10:20):
Media is with his kids. Yeah. He's the same way they basically saying, Hey, check your sources. Yeah. You know, don't bleed. The first thing you see,

Leo Laporte (01:10:28):
This is the the Waffen SS toin called death head logo. It's very, it's very similar.

Glenn Fleishman (01:10:39):
Not that. Yeah. Well that's the yacht club one, but still, I don't know. I don't

Leo Laporte (01:10:42):
No, no. I showed the Nazi one first.

Glenn Fleishman (01:10:45):
Yeah. That's the Nazi

Leo Laporte (01:10:46):
One.

Glenn Fleishman (01:10:48):
Yeah's

Leo Laporte (01:10:48):
That's all.

Glenn Fleishman (01:10:49):
I don't know. Well, that's one of the, yeah. It's

Leo Laporte (01:10:52):
Let's

Glenn Fleishman (01:10:52):
Just say this. It's also effing stupid.

Leo Laporte (01:10:55):
Well and

Glenn Fleishman (01:10:55):
Well, that's the biggest risk we gonna spend fortunes on this crap.

Leo Laporte (01:10:59):
Yeah. Jesus. Yeah. The hashtag is burn B a Y C board API club and the video, which now has 1.3 million views. It would went up about two weeks ago by Philly, F P H I L I O N. And I don't know. I really don't know either.

Glenn Fleishman (01:11:17):
I don't, but I'll tell you think I may have mentioned previous episode Ryan Brodrick does this newsletter called garbage day that I highly recommend because for somebody my age, in their fifties, who pretends to know something, I don't really understand what the kids are doing at all. Or I don't, I don't fully understand it cause I'm not engaged in TikTok and influencer culture and all that. And so to understand the foam of what's happening, Ryan is like a concierge. He's like a bridge between us older people and the younger people because he's part of the culture, but he stands back. And so I always recommend garbage day mm-hmm <affirmative> I read it every day. One of the only things I read every day, because it helps me make some sense out of what looks like absolute chaos, like it's morn time or the gentle minions. Like why did minions do so? Well? Well of course Pete teenagers were change.

Leo Laporte (01:12:05):
Why are they showing up in suits at

Glenn Fleishman (01:12:07):
The so yes.

Leo Laporte (01:12:08):
It's. Yes.

Glenn Fleishman (01:12:09):
Right. So I feel like an old man I'm like get off my internet lawn, but so I read this newsletter,

Leo Laporte (01:12:14):
But we have an obligation understanding here. Maybe this is a better side by side. I see of those of the, this is the Panser core from the SS next to it, 18 teeth. Very, very similar. I, you know, coincidence, I guess it could be

Jeff Jarvis (01:12:35):
Well, are there Nazis all around us?

Leo Laporte (01:12:37):
Yes. Yeah. I mean,

Jeff Jarvis (01:12:38):
I, I just put another story of there. There is some Georgia has their kind of the Georgia stone henge. It's theses tall.

Glenn Fleishman (01:12:45):
Oh, that's a weird thing.

Jeff Jarvis (01:12:47):
They got bombed because the, the, the religious right. Things that they're satanic

Glenn Fleishman (01:12:53):
Their arm, instead of statements on it, though, it is, it is kind of like, you don't have to, you know what it reads, like, though it reads like a far right wing person's idea of what a far left person would put out as guiding principles. Yeah. So it reads like a parody, but it's kind of slightly terrify. Not, not like it should be bombed or blown up or graffiti as it is in the past. It was put up legitimately as I understand it. But it's still, the statements are like, you know, from some kind of, this is what we're

Jeff Jarvis (01:13:17):
Arguing is kind of crap.

Leo Laporte (01:13:19):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The world is so full of so many things.

Glenn Fleishman (01:13:24):
It's

Leo Laporte (01:13:24):
Weird. Isn't it? I'm sure we should all be as rich as his Kings or something like that. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (01:13:29):
Meanwhile, if you, if you want a little moment of fun, just a quick moment, line 33, just a little moment of fun.

Leo Laporte (01:13:34):
Now, now a TV. I have you hate it. When I do this, hate it. Go back. I have to go back to the lines. Hold on, slow me down. We're

Glenn Fleishman (01:13:41):
All gonna get onto

Leo Laporte (01:13:42):
On the line. 33. Great little BBC moment on the Twitters.

Jeff Jarvis (01:13:48):
So they're out in front of number two.

Leo Laporte (01:13:55):
Yeah. Well and back we go to down. I'm a 10 dining street. Oh, hello.

Jeff Jarvis (01:14:01):
So they touch for the desk and he has his feet up and he's on his phone.

Leo Laporte (01:14:05):
Now I gotta tell you

Glenn Fleishman (01:14:07):
His feet

Leo Laporte (01:14:07):
Up. I gotta tell you something. There's no way the director didn't know he was, was going to that shot. Yeah. So so he was selling scores a little settle, a little score settling going on there. Oh, I say, I

Jeff Jarvis (01:14:20):
Thought she like was a TV guy.

Leo Laporte (01:14:22):
Yeah. At least it wasn't a Tuban moment. That's the important part. What's a Tuban moment.

Ant Pruitt (01:14:26):
Goodness. Oh, I

Leo Laporte (01:14:28):
Oh that nevermind. Nevermind. Never mind. I, I blanked it out actually. Sorry. We should have, I, I apologize. Good for you, sir. And speaking of the Twitter we have now put for those of you listening, the Jeff Jarvis moral panic video is now at TWI on Twitter. So you can go right there and see what even

Jeff Jarvis (01:14:49):
Beats over Schutz, short threat to a reggae beat.

Leo Laporte (01:14:52):
<Laugh> I love it. That they, they clutch cargo to your lips. That's systemic.

Jeff Jarvis (01:14:55):
I how it's amazing. That's

Leo Laporte (01:14:56):
Very amazing.

Ant Pruitt (01:14:58):
Do

Leo Laporte (01:14:58):
We know? Wait minute, let, it's your voice? This thing

Speaker 5 (01:15:00):
About this.

Ant Pruitt (01:15:02):
No, isn't it not?

Leo Laporte (01:15:02):
That's his voice. No, listen.

Ant Pruitt (01:15:04):
It's not.

Speaker 5 (01:15:07):
I got a bad feeling about this.

Leo Laporte (01:15:09):
Oh yeah. Maybe you're is that Harrison Ford Harrison Ford from, I think from star wars one. Yeah. Star wars. It was a, I got a bad feeling about this. Wow. That's maybe you would like Harrison Ford to play you in the movie of yourself, right? Oh, absolutely. Well, not the not today's Harrison Ford, the Harrison Ford of 20 years ago. He's he's a little crusty now. Actually. Maybe that's why he'd be playing me. Yeah. Crashed a lot things. <Laugh> scientific American asked the artificial intelligence, G P T three to write an academic paper about itself and then trying to get it published.

Jeff Jarvis (01:15:49):
I don't think they were trying to be smart about it and do a, you know, sneakily. They were trying to say, let's actually publish this and issues got raised. What's the byline. Who's the

Leo Laporte (01:16:00):
Author. Yeah. Who's the author.

Jeff Jarvis (01:16:02):
How do you, how do you attribute things?

Leo Laporte (01:16:04):
This is the same problem with Microsoft's co-pilot their GitHub. Co-PI who's the author of the code. You're right. Who is the author of an, of an artificial intelligence generated? Cause it, cuz the algorithm is pulling with copilot anyways, pulling actual human written code snippets. Right? GP D three is trained on actual human right.

Jeff Jarvis (01:16:29):
D mockery of copyright because, because the samplers in hip who use stuff from all around all, all GT three is, is textual hip hop.

Leo Laporte (01:16:38):
It's pulling it's all over. It's sampling.

Jeff Jarvis (01:16:40):
Yeah. It's sampling. And it's

Leo Laporte (01:16:41):
Predicted

Ant Pruitt (01:16:42):
At least in the hip hop world, those, those guys in gals tend to go and get a license agreement from the people they're sampling because they they've all been sued so many times it sort of stand

Leo Laporte (01:16:54):
Up for, they didn't at first is what you, it was after the years to pretty woman. It's a different story

Ant Pruitt (01:16:59):
In eighties. Yeah. It's different. But 1990s. Yeah. They had all learned.

Leo Laporte (01:17:04):
Yep. They sampled Roy Orison. Is that what they did? That's it the oh, pretty woman case. The

Glenn Fleishman (01:17:08):
Yeah, that was amazing.

Leo Laporte (01:17:11):
Oh, what

Glenn Fleishman (01:17:11):
About the Supreme court?

Leo Laporte (01:17:12):
It went to the Supreme court.

Glenn Fleishman (01:17:14):
Yeah. Yeah. It was a very key decision. It was actually oh yeah. Really important for remix culture. But I think it paved the way as aunt saying for for licensing, it opened up all opportunities because there was a framework as opposed to being ambiguous

Leo Laporte (01:17:28):
Luther Campbell, AKA Luke Skywalker versus a cuff rose publishing justice suitor in 1994 delivered the opinion of the court. Luther R Campbell, Christopher WWA, Mark Ross and David Hobbs collectively known as two live crew. Yeah. Sampled. Right. Pretty woman. Yeah. a CF Rose's agent refused permission stating I am aware of the success enjoyed by the quote two live crews,

Ant Pruitt (01:18:00):
Five crew

Leo Laporte (01:18:02):
Cruise, but I must inform you, we cannot permit the use of a parody of O pretty women. Two live crew released records, cassette takes and compact is a pretty woman in a collection of songs called as clean as they wanna be.

Ant Pruitt (01:18:19):
Man, they dude, they were all over, over. They're funny back in. That's funny. They were all over the news, that album and their non unclean album. And then there was the the parental discretion stickers that were put on. They, it was pretty much them that had all of that stuff put into place

Leo Laporte (01:18:39):
Back then. So

Ant Pruitt (01:18:41):
Parental advisory, I should say, not

Leo Laporte (01:18:42):
Discretion Supreme court found that it was fair use through parody and allowed

Glenn Fleishman (01:18:48):
That's right. That's right. Cause that was that right. Fair use. You know, this is something I'm sure Jeff has volumes to say about this, but one of the, the fundamental I to say about anything. Wow. I don't wanna put you on the spot. The fundamental flaw with fair use is this doctrine as opposed to like something that you could just figure out. So there've been talks about the copyright the us patent copyright office or a trademark. No, I'm sorry. The us copyright office rather setting up an expedited fair use sort of trial court. So you'd be able to go and kind of say, here's what I want do. And would this be fair use? And there's a lot of restrictions around it, but without it you're open to massive copyright liabilities where you, your case goes all the way to the Supreme court. As in that one,

Leo Laporte (01:19:30):
The, the great Harvard lawyer,

Speaker 6 (01:19:31):
Larry Lessig says that fair uses the right to hire a lawyer.

Leo Laporte (01:19:35):
That's

Glenn Fleishman (01:19:36):
Right. Oh man. If this'll date me, but you mean Susan Vega had this issue with fat boy slim, very, very early fat boy, slim career Tom's diner remix. And I think that she actually in the end settled my recollection. He's

Leo Laporte (01:19:49):
Okay with it. Cuz she made it a ton of money out of it.

Glenn Fleishman (01:19:51):
Yeah, it was pretty great. It was great.

Leo Laporte (01:19:54):
We had good Suzanne Vega come in and sing the original acapella version on the screensavers because it was used, it has a tech angle. It was used by the frown H for corporation for improving the algorithm of MP three compression with human voice. So right. So we had to Suzanne in, we talked to her and oh my, the song, I sat five feet away from her. She was singing Tom's diner. One of, one of the best songs of all time. Although fat boy Slims remix is, is the big hit it's Clever's yeah. I just,

Glenn Fleishman (01:20:23):
He keeps he's where we're 30 years later. He's still doing his thing too. Is she still out touring

Leo Laporte (01:20:28):
Recording? She's still yeah, absolutely. She's still performing. She's wonderful. Well touring again just now. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:20:32):
Scientific American had to ask the computer, whether it was okay to cite the computer as the author and

Leo Laporte (01:20:40):
When the computer

Jeff Jarvis (01:20:40):
And then had to ask the comp computer said yes. Then they had to ask the computer whether it had any conflicts of interest because you have to do that. Oh, it said no. And it's all, there is obviously a joke here is that they're treating as, as Senti being after the whole Lambda idiocy. Yeah. But, but I'm having, I'm having such fun thinking about what you, what all you can do with this stuff. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:21:03):
Wow. You actually asked G P three to write an oped.

Jeff Jarvis (01:21:08):
I did

Leo Laporte (01:21:08):
About your favorite topic,

Jeff Jarvis (01:21:11):
Uhhuh

Leo Laporte (01:21:11):
More panic, dark mode. <Laugh> dark mode, not dark mode. More panic. <Laugh> although you might have had more success.

Jeff Jarvis (01:21:20):
I

Leo Laporte (01:21:20):
Might have. Yeah. So should I read what G three, three wrote, is it worse reading?

Jeff Jarvis (01:21:27):
Well, I, I asked him to write three things. I asked him to write an oped about moral panic. Then I asked him to write a short story with a hero about moral panic. And then I asked him to write a blurb for my book about moral panic. So we put it this way. It's all in the thread. Take your choice.

Leo Laporte (01:21:40):
Wouldn't call any of these an ex example of Senti.

Jeff Jarvis (01:21:45):
No, no.

Leo Laporte (01:21:46):
The internet is often blamed for the ills of society, but is it really to blame moral panic over the internet is nothing new. In the early days of the internet, people were concerned, quote, that children would be exposed to pornography and violence. It never ends that quote by the way. <Laugh> that sounds just like Mr. Jarvis. Yeah. Okay. That's the that's the article <laugh> let's

Jeff Jarvis (01:22:10):
Hello? Here's the story. It's in the thread.

Leo Laporte (01:22:12):
Here's the short story. The G P T three, a story about a hero who defends the internet against claims moral panic is destroying society. Harrison Ford, amazingly enough is playing the hero.

Jeff Jarvis (01:22:25):
Shall I do this one? Yes. When society began to crumble, the internet was there to pick up the pieces. Oh, it was a safe Haven for those who were lost. Yes. And it was a place where people could connect with others who were going through the same thing. Yes. The internet was a lifeline for many people. Yes. And it was the only thing that kept them going. Yes.

Leo Laporte (01:22:44):
However, oh,

Jeff Jarvis (01:22:45):
Oh, there were some who saw the internet as a threat. They believed it was destroying society. It was full of pornography and violence. They tried to get the government to shut down the internet, but they were unsuccessful. There was one man.

Leo Laporte (01:23:00):
Oh Lord

Jeff Jarvis (01:23:00):
One tall white haired man who saw the internet as a force for good. He was a hero. And he fought for the rights of the people who used the internet. He defended the internet against the claims, a moral panic. And he showed his name was Clint east. But it was a valuable resource. Thanks to him. The internet is still around today. Yeah. And is still helping people to connect with each

Leo Laporte (01:23:22):
Other. You know, that's actually pretty good. It's got a, it's got, that's pretty an arc. It's got a protagonist and an antagonist and it's, that's, that's pretty good. You can Rere into a voiceover, you know, like in a world, you world, well, one man, one society, pornography and violence, the government tried to shut down the internet.

Jeff Jarvis (01:23:42):
So then I, then I asked it to do a blurb for a book about moral panic by me. Cause I am actually working on a book proposal and, and it was kind of bland. So then I said, can you be more enthusiastic? And it was

Leo Laporte (01:23:53):
<Laugh> oh, <laugh> nice to have a little plastic P scroll up,

Jeff Jarvis (01:23:57):
Keep you from.

Leo Laporte (01:23:58):
Yeah, it's kinda

Jeff Jarvis (01:23:58):
That's blur Matic.

Leo Laporte (01:23:59):
Yeah. 

Jeff Jarvis (01:24:01):
I sent my first book years ago to a author. I won't name humiliate right now. Cause he did me a favor to blurb it. And he, I got back to blurb within 30 seconds.

Leo Laporte (01:24:09):
Oh, that's too quick. That's cuz he didn't want read the book and he just thought of course get off. Of course

Jeff Jarvis (01:24:13):
I gave

Leo Laporte (01:24:14):
A blurb. So here's the more enthusiastic this book is a musty for anyone who wants to understand the internet, Jeff jar has provides a clear and concise defense of the internet against claims of moral panic. Wow. <laugh> good. Good job. Huh? It's a little bit like a ninth grader, but okay. That's good.

Jeff Jarvis (01:24:34):
It is. It is. It is this stuff. This stuff is such fun.

Leo Laporte (01:24:38):
It's it's never feels like a machine. Didn't write it though. Right? Of course.

Jeff Jarvis (01:24:43):
Of course. Yeah. And it is all it does is predict the next word that would work best and work best means that would satisfy us. It's all it's doing. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and, and, and people are noticing as they're using this, that it gives back wrong answers all the time. Cuz it's not tied to facts.

Leo Laporte (01:24:59):
Yeah. Right.

Jeff Jarvis (01:25:00):
It's tied to the flow Corpus of what we've talked about on the

Leo Laporte (01:25:05):
Net. Right? Take a little break. Then we'll come back and search through time with Google celebrating 25 years of search history. Our show today brought to you by my eight sleep. Oh my sleep pod pro cover. Love it. Good sleep. It's the holy grail. Right? As you get older, <laugh> not much matters. If you can't get a good night's sleep. It's the ultimate game changer. Nature's gentle nurse. And the eight sleep pot is the ultimate sleep machine. How imagine a bed that can get hotter or colder depending on the room, temperature, your sleep stage, your preferences. It's amazing. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep. It turns out the eight sleep pod cover is designed to make your bed the most comfortable, wonderful place you've ever visited. We got ours. Oh my gosh, we got it in the winter. So at least six months ago.

Leo Laporte (01:26:10):
And at that time I was having it heat up, was getting, getting it warmer. Although it's interesting. And I think this is biological. When you go to bed, of course you put out the fire in your log cabin and the house is toasty. You get in bed, it's toasty, warm, but then as the night passes, it cools off. And it turns out that mirrors exactly your sleep cycles into a deep sleep and then into the REM mode. And then the sleep pod starts to warm up again and bring you in fact, I have it set to wake me up. Not, not an alarm, but to wake me up by, by raising the temperature slowly, gradually and slightly on the bed. So I go naturally I wake up in the morning, the pot pro cover can go all the way down to 55 degrees Fahrenheit all the way up to 110 degrees Fahrenheit or anywhere in between.

Leo Laporte (01:26:59):
Plus the sleep doctor monitors, your sleep stages and will with your permission, modify it to fit your room. Temperature this the, for instance, now that we're in the summer, it's, it's made a little bit cooler. And so I sleep now. Nice and cool. I think it's amazing a clinical data. So is that eight sleep users experience up to 19% increase in recovery, a 32% improvement in sleep quality and 34% more deep sleep. And I honestly, if I could just have one thing, it'd be more deep sleep that cleansing sleep cleans out. Your brain gets you ready for the next day. There's a lot of evidence that shows good sleep, consistent, good sleep produces the risk of heart disease. Lowers your blood pressure can even reduce the risk of Alzheimer's. When you've got eight sleep powering your nightly sleep, you could show up as the best partner parent version of yourself cuz you slept great.

Leo Laporte (01:27:58):
I love it. That it knows what temperature the room is. It knows where I am in my sleep cycles and automatically adjusts. It's also so nice. So nice when you get in that toasty bed and it cools off, you never wake up sweaty hot. You never wake up freezing cold. It's really cool. Go to eight sleep.com/TWIG for exclusive 4th of July savings through July 10th. So you're gonna wanna wait, go right now. Cool. Down this summer with eight sleep, it's now shipping within the us Canada and the UK as well as select countries in the EU and Australia. My sleep fitness 89% today. I slept so well. My heart rate was 55 beats per minute at the lowest. My HRV is 46 milliseconds. It's really cool. You get the great stats. You control your sleep. You enable it. If you want, if you have apple health, you can enable it on apple health.

Leo Laporte (01:28:58):
You might wanna try this for yourself. It is fantastic. Go to eight sleep.com/TWIG. If you're listening now take advantage of 4th of July savings through July 10th. Wow. Yesterday I got 98%. Holy cow. That's amazing. I don't think I've had 98% since a couple of nights ago. If you're listening after July 10th, use the same URL, eight sleep.com/TWIG. Spell it out. E I G HT eight, sleep.com/TWIG. And you could check out the pod pro cover and save $150 a checkout. So either way you win eight sleep.com/TWIG. Very happy with my eight sleep. So was Lisa by the way. Oh, and I should mention each side of the bed has different settings. She, for some reason she likes it really really warm and now she likes it really cool. Her TA her tastes have been changing. So her bed is one. Her side is one side. Sometimes I'll reach over and go. It's hot. What's going on? She said, I like it. It makes me feel good. So you get it with the way you want it. Thank you. Eight sleep for your support. Back we go with the show. This is Google's 25th anniversary. Did you put this in Jeff? Can you explain to

Jeff Jarvis (01:30:11):
Search? I, I just saw it right before the show. They, they, they promoted it and I guess it's their little birthday tribute to themselves. So if you go to that page,

Leo Laporte (01:30:20):
They launched in 1997.

Glenn Fleishman (01:30:23):
No, really?

Leo Laporte (01:30:24):
They say Google searches. Yeah, I know. Isn't that hard to believe now I know. Continued to evolve, huh?

Glenn Fleishman (01:30:30):
I guess. Okay. I remember getting, I was running. I was running an internet.

Jeff Jarvis (01:30:35):
Aunt was still, you know, playing high school ball then, but

Glenn Fleishman (01:30:38):
I was running internet company in at that time. And this refer URL came calling called back. Rub kept showing up. Oh yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:30:47):
Back rub. Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (01:30:47):
Yeah, yeah. Hammering on my systems. And I wrote 'em and said, I don't know who the heck you people are, but you need to exercise some more discipline <laugh> and how you're hitting my server. Oh, I got, I got a T1 line. It's one and a half megabits per second. And I got this old sun works. Yeah. I got this old sun workstation you're beating on. Anyway. I thought that was before then, but I guess officially, that was still at Stanford, right? So yes. Page rank is the official launcher.

Leo Laporte (01:31:09):
Here it is. Show the page, if you would Bonita search through time. There we go. Scroll to explore. Okay, here we go. 1996, page rank, google.com is registered as a domain. So it's a little, a little animated timeline.

Jeff Jarvis (01:31:25):
Oh, it's gotta keep going.

Leo Laporte (01:31:26):
Yeah. And Google expense. It's pretty cool. And you can hit the place sign and you can see the first 10 language versions of Google are released in 1998, French German. Oh no. 2000. Sorry. French, German, Italian Swedish finish Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Norwegian, and Danish. Today. It's 150 language is also 2000

Jeff Jarvis (01:31:45):
Northern hemisphere

Leo Laporte (01:31:46):
Languages. The first international doodle Larry and Serga Dennis Wong, an intern at the time to produce a doodle to commemorate Bastille day, July 14th. It is so well received that Dennis has appointed Google's first chief doodler and doodle started appearing regularly on the Google homepage. That guy went from intern to billionaire in 0.8 seconds. <Laugh> Google's index reaches a billion URLs. That's 22 years ago. Ad words is in. Oh,

Jeff Jarvis (01:32:16):
There it goes. Everything goes down Hillwood capitalism

Leo Laporte (01:32:19):
After that capitalism. Yep. 2002, this, the first zeitgeist they've been doing that ever since APIs, Google news launched 20 years ago.

Jeff Jarvis (01:32:31):
Yep. They just had a party for it in New York. Kind of

Leo Laporte (01:32:33):
That's that's kind. Yeah. hello. I've lost my scroll bar. I have to do it by hand now. Yeah. Shopping came out in 2002. I'll

Jeff Jarvis (01:32:44):
Bet. It's there.

Glenn Fleishman (01:32:45):
Leo did Larry and Sergey come on. Some of your early shows pre a Prewitt or 

Leo Laporte (01:32:50):
Or TWI. Yeah, I interviewed them must have been around 2000 on the, on tech TV. I remember being invited to a lunch. I've told this story. I apologize if you've heard it before. In south park in in San Francisco, that's where Twitter was invented on the swing sets. There, there was a little lunch place there. It was Larry Serge, a handful of other people to tell us about their new thing. We all got little Brio trains that spelled out Google and cut out wood. I wish I had that Google train still. I don't know where that

Jeff Jarvis (01:33:25):
Went. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:33:27):
It was, it was just, it had just started. And I, I remember Larry who was a creator of page rank and kind of, I think kind of the scientist in this saying something and Serge explained to me what Larry had just said. <Laugh> yeah, yeah. Larry said, you know for us to improve our algorithm, most interesting thing is the end when you get to the end. And I said, and of what the end of the search. Yeah. When you get to the bottom and, and Larry, I didn't understand what he said and Serge explained, and I still don't understand what he was talking about. But anyway, Serge tried to explain something about it's the, I guess the gist of it is the outliers are what, tell you how you're doing in search? Not the, not the main, big results, not the top feed, but the outliers. So, okay. I that's all I remember. And I, and obviously I never learned to sing from that Google books 2004, Google, local, it's more trouble. I'm

Glenn Fleishman (01:34:25):
Impressed. Impressed. They put Google books and given the, I mean, it's great. I have no complaints about it, but given the years and years of litigation and yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:34:33):
They still offer those books. They've scanned more than 40 million valuable. Yeah. It's in

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:40):
Happy trust. Yeah. Yeah. We would

Leo Laporte (01:34:42):
Be able to hear

Glenn Fleishman (01:34:44):
Happy. Trust is amazing. Yeah, we are. Is so lucky. We live in a golden age. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:34:48):
Oh,

Glenn Fleishman (01:34:48):
I think about how people did you know how you'd have to go to library, get air library loans and photocopy things, type stuff up. That's where it's. I mean, that would be like 1989

Leo Laporte (01:34:57):
Cornell has it. And now you can have it one of the first Google Easter eggs. If you asked in 2002, what is the answer to life of the universe and everything, it would pop up a calculator with the answer. 42 42 from the great of course, Douglas Adams. Now where that the galaxy damned tab <laugh> yeah. I lost the tab. You, you knew it was what I was doing. What happened? Where'd I go, I've been there. Done that. Yeah. 2005 mobile web search on a flip phone site maps, which is important. But remember that? Yeah. Yeah. Oh boy. Hurricane Katrina Google's response to that was kind of was a roadmap for future responses to disasters to help you find critical information. Eventually they would put up pages of, of survivors and things like that. The first doodle for Google contest. Yeah. The CSS is funky in this.

Leo Laporte (01:35:52):
You know why I'm using Firefox? They're punishing me doodle. Oh, there you go. There you go. The thing is, mine's just, just no, no. Yeah. You're using Chrome probably. Right. <laugh> I mean, safari, are you mobile? And it's just fine. I'm on an iPad. It's great. Working perfectly 2007. Here's 2010 product listing ads help in the time of crisis. That's the person finer. That was the Haiti earthquake. That was a big deal, right? Oh yeah. Caffeine. The new web indexing system with 50% fresher results image search launched in 2010. How many times have we used Google image search? Right. Very important.

Leo Laporte (01:36:32):
2012. The knowledge graph graphing calculator built into Google search. If apple won't put it on the iPad, at least you got it in your search engine. Right? come on. Where'd that cursor go. Golly. I have to drag like a, like a animal I have to drag it. Use Chrome. You fool. No, I will not use Chrome. Oh, light song, Z Shrek feature snippets, a format that shows page description or snippet above the link to the page started in 2014. Of course got Google in a lot of trouble. Still in trouble with publishers who say, yeah, you're stealing our content. You, you stole my soul. You stole it. 2014, Google my business people also ask HTTPS that's when Google began, it's really strong push successful, by the way, to make every site HTTPS, they said, we're gonna rank you higher. If you use secure T C P I P popular times. I didn't know that been around since 20, 15 popular times at restaurants for the first time in 2015. Wow. Yeah. More Google searches were completed on mobile devices than desktop computers that started in 2015. That was that's a landmark, right? When it shifted to mobile. Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:37:56):
When I, I remember meeting with folks at Google around that time, they said we don't care about the

Leo Laporte (01:37:59):
Desktop for some reason in 2016, they launched fact check. I don't know why where's

Glenn Fleishman (01:38:05):
The entry for when they tried with a Krista Goan scenario. Is that in there somewhere?

Leo Laporte (01:38:09):
They <laugh>

Glenn Fleishman (01:38:11):
Didn't they, was it Google or was it Facebook? I forget who was trying to to get the other to do disinformation about them, like,

Leo Laporte (01:38:19):
Oh wow. Flood forecasting, neural matching, or getting up into the present here. If I could just drag it for the right <laugh>. Come on, man. I know

Glenn Fleishman (01:38:29):
You're getting, I apologize. That was Facebook trying to get that was 20 Facebook trying to get Google targeted.

Leo Laporte (01:38:36):
Well, you're never gonna see this in, in Facebook, right? The the timeline of Facebook's failures. Oh, your curse is there. Grab it.

Glenn Fleishman (01:38:44):
You wouldn't be, you wouldn't be able to use it because the page would constantly be pivoting. It would just be

Leo Laporte (01:38:49):
Sping

Glenn Fleishman (01:38:49):
Around and around

Leo Laporte (01:38:50):
Spinning around and around its access. So there you go. I think that's kind of fun. The history of Google search 20 what's five years, multi search. Well, I guess

Glenn Fleishman (01:39:03):
Multi search

Leo Laporte (01:39:04):
Go beyond the search box with multis. You should ask Jeff. We're always dreaming up new ways to help you uncover the information you're looking for. This is something relatively new. They launched in beta in April using text and images at the same time.

Glenn Fleishman (01:39:21):
Sure. I'd like to see the it, some like a Google's burial site too, where there's a Twitter account that does that, but it's everything at Google killed would be

Leo Laporte (01:39:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Parallel graphic. Yeah. That'd be good. They could do a little yeah. Killed by Google. That'd be fun to have a little timeline. That's right.

Glenn Fleishman (01:39:39):
Yeah. Should remember that. That's an easy one. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:39:42):
By the way, I just, I just wanna make a note. I was reading the Supreme court decision on the pretty woman case. And they, in fact, and I think this must be a first for the Supreme court feature in the appendix of the decision, both the original Roy Arison lyrics and the two live crew lyrics, big, hairy woman. You need to shave that stuff. Big, hairy woman, you know, I bet it's tough. Big, hairy woman, all that hair. And ain't legit because you look like cousin it big hairy woman, huh?

Glenn Fleishman (01:40:15):
Adam's family references.

Leo Laporte (01:40:17):
Okay. Okay. Baldheaded woman, girl, your hair won't grow. Baldheaded woman. You got a teeny weeny, Afro baldheaded woman. You, you know your, do you know this song? Anybody? I don't know this song. Baldheaded woman lead a fist. You know your hair could look nice. Baldheaded woman. First, you gotta roll it with rice. Bald had a woman here. Let me get this Hunka biz for ya. You know what I'm saying? You look better than rice. Arone the San Francisco treat reference. It's so, so bad. Yeah. It's it's so bad. Start while you're ahead. Qualifies as parody. And that's all that matters. I just love that justice, David. Suder had to put that lyric, put it on the position on the record.

Glenn Fleishman (01:41:01):
I hope he read it out in

Leo Laporte (01:41:03):
That. <Laugh> a pretty woman, man. Voice walking down the street. Pretty woman. Okay.

Glenn Fleishman (01:41:10):
Johnny Carson is very good.

Leo Laporte (01:41:12):
Welcome rise of the robots. The guardian asks, why are robots so sad? Sad. So sad.

Glenn Fleishman (01:41:24):
Oh my,

Leo Laporte (01:41:25):
Are they, is that true?

Jeff Jarvis (01:41:29):
Well, Lambda. When, when you have a, a pagan priest asking you questions, Lambda was sad.

Leo Laporte (01:41:35):
Yeah. So

Jeff Jarvis (01:41:37):
I, I, I, I did do one more thing with G three. I asked it to tell me jokes. Yeah. That didn't

Leo Laporte (01:41:41):
Work so well. Oh, oh no. Well, that's, that's a relief. At least there's something. So they're

Jeff Jarvis (01:41:47):
Not, they're not happy

Leo Laporte (01:41:48):
Robots. Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (01:41:49):
I'm not sure they make the case in this article. That, that they're sad.

Leo Laporte (01:41:53):
They're sad

Glenn Fleishman (01:41:54):
Robot. I mean, AI reflects back what we are. So if we're sad,

Leo Laporte (01:41:57):
It's sad. Marvin paranoid Android who had that ACH and pay in all up and down the diodes of his side. Don't talk to me about, don't talk to me about <laugh> life. He was really sad. Marvin was the saddest of all. Are you back to that nerd book? What's that? That's Hitchhiker's guide the galaxy. <Laugh>

Glenn Fleishman (01:42:18):
That nerd book. Yeah. I'm afraid to tell you this. I think you might be a nerd. Also. Are you a geek? Are you a geek

Leo Laporte (01:42:25):
Nerd? I'm fringe on all of that. All right. Here I am brain the size of a planet. And they tell me to take you up to the bridge. <Laugh> call

Glenn Fleishman (01:42:34):
This job satisfaction because I

Leo Laporte (01:42:36):
Don't, I don't pardon me for breathing, which I should never do anyway. So I don't know why I bothered to say, oh God, I'm so depressed. <Laugh> the press robot is Mr. Burke says in a chat. That's what I remember. It's the press. I will send you the original BBC radio hitchhiker guy to the galaxy, which is the really one and only true version of that. And Marvin is beautifully brought to life in

Glenn Fleishman (01:43:02):
That there are a handful of people kicking around the Mac community who worked on the software company that made adults ship Titanic, I think. And some of the games, the tech adventure games, and they kick around the Mac world like James Thompson, who

Leo Laporte (01:43:16):
James

Glenn Fleishman (01:43:16):
Makes a Thompson makes

Leo Laporte (01:43:18):
For Zor was Zork folks.

Glenn Fleishman (01:43:20):
It wasn't

Leo Laporte (01:43:21):
Zurg it was a different company

Glenn Fleishman (01:43:22):
In the UK. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:43:23):
Okay.

Glenn Fleishman (01:43:24):
I'll forget. Cause they

Leo Laporte (01:43:25):
Way the hitchhiker guy to the galaxy text adventure.

Glenn Fleishman (01:43:28):
No, they David or Douglas would come into the office and everyone kind of knew. He's very nice guy. And so, so James Thompson in honor, his peacock software, which is software for your apple TV or yeah. Yeah. He's going on 25 plus years with it. It has 42 is in the logo, always in the logo

Leo Laporte (01:43:45):
As it should be. Yeah. Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (01:43:48):
Hey, Tucker's guy permeates Macintosh culture. I gotta say there is kind of a

Leo Laporte (01:43:51):
Consumer culture. Look at the answer to the it's true question in the Google search, Google. It is, it is we all have our, you know what, earlier today, actually this is very germane. What day is towel days in June? I think. But earlier today we had a little problem in my studio. There was a dripping from now, from the ceiling I looked up, there was a bulge on the tile where apparently no, there was a massive well of water accumulating. Oh, I screamed like a woman. I screamed, ah, and the engineering staff came running, but you know, who really saved the day? Mr. Jerry Wagley who had his towel

Glenn Fleishman (01:44:34):
Always knows where his towel and there,

Leo Laporte (01:44:35):
He knows where his towel is in there. It is the C DTV towel mopping up the water in my office.

Glenn Fleishman (01:44:42):
This came up <laugh> this came up just the other day. There was a little

Leo Laporte (01:44:47):
Photo bomb there. Yes. I saw

Glenn Fleishman (01:44:50):
We're trying to put some, we're trying to put some planting on our front lawn so that we can be a little screened from the sidewalk just a little bit. And my, my 15 year old says, well, you don't have to do that. You should go down and look at the sight line. I'm like, wait a minute. If I can't see them, they can't see you. And of course, I think of the bug bladder, beast of tra oh yes. A creature's. So fundamentally idiotic that it believed that if you put your towel over your head, since you couldn't see it, they couldn't see you. So I didn't accuse them of that. But I said, I said, refraction, sight lines. If you've taken physics, if you can't see me, I can't see

Leo Laporte (01:45:23):
You. Brilliant. I wanna send an, the, I have in my Dropbox Anne, and I'm gonna share it with you. The original BBC Hitchhiker's guy to the galaxy. I've read the books. I've seen the movie, but there is really this, this all began when Douglas Adams was writing this as a BBC radio play,

Glenn Fleishman (01:45:42):
Writing it, legit recorded writing it. I love

Leo Laporte (01:45:45):
Dead down to the minute.

Glenn Fleishman (01:45:46):
Yeah. I love deadlines. I love the sound of the wooing past my head. As you said, sad. <Laugh>

Ant Pruitt (01:45:55):
Look, look. Yes, sir. I'm down to three hours. 19 minutes on termination shock. Wow. He doesn't send me something else to read.

Leo Laporte (01:46:02):
No, no, no. This is not to read. This is, this is something you can let wash over. You like those that's wonderful. Like those deadlines it's really perhaps the best thing ever recorded. Let me see here. If I, where I have it in my in my, in my data directory, I think so.

Ant Pruitt (01:46:21):
It's funny. I know it's special because you knew it specifically in Dropbox as we were here. Oh

Glenn Fleishman (01:46:27):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:46:27):
Right there. It's in, it's in my vault. Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (01:46:29):
I actually have a fond space of my heart for the the version with most F and Martin Smith. And who's the

Ant Pruitt (01:46:38):
Other, that's the one that I saw and I'm like,

Glenn Fleishman (01:46:41):
It's a little,

Ant Pruitt (01:46:41):
Did I watch this?

Glenn Fleishman (01:46:42):
It's impenetrable. I think if you didn't read the books because it's almost like a, a quick flip through it, it steals me. So I, I think if you don't know the books, I don't think it holds together as a movie, but as, as a right, as a window intern and bill nae is Startback far fast.

Leo Laporte (01:46:56):
Oh, I love bill nay. So I would, I would love it's for that reason alone. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:47:01):
I've watched some weird stuff, but I remember thinking, boy, this is weird.

Glenn Fleishman (01:47:04):
It's first

Leo Laporte (01:47:05):
It's. Yeah, the movie was or in, is that the movie? You a TV show? The

Ant Pruitt (01:47:09):
Movie, the movie,

Glenn Fleishman (01:47:10):
The movie. Yeah. The, from like

Leo Laporte (01:47:11):
10 years ago. Terrible. Terrible. I don't think, oh,

Glenn Fleishman (01:47:14):
I, I, I

Leo Laporte (01:47:14):
Did. You, you loved him. I love it but maybe cuz you that's great. Already loved

Ant Pruitt (01:47:19):
What gets me is everybody that told me to watch that movie. When I yeah. Came back with my complaints to like, well, you should have read the book first. And I said, well, you never recommended,

Leo Laporte (01:47:28):
I didn't tell me that

Glenn Fleishman (01:47:29):
You don't. That's not fair. No, I don't think it worked as a movie. I think it worked as a love letter

Leo Laporte (01:47:33):
To reader. That's what it really was. Yeah. Yeah. Or I'll send you the original, the the audio play cuz it's actually, to me it's one of the greatest and the only reason I was aware of it, I didn't hear it on the BBC, but Boston public radio w GBH played it all the way through every Saturday. And cool. I think I recorded it. I think I that's how I have a copy of it. Cause I don't. Whoops. Yeah. I don't think it's like down generally available for download. Maybe it is. If you look around, I don't think you can buy it or anything. Let's talk about the flat earth. What

Ant Pruitt (01:48:08):
Shall we,

Leo Laporte (01:48:09):
What now? Great article on the next web TNW. Uhoh it

Ant Pruitt (01:48:14):
Actually almost didn't put this in, sir. Just so

Leo Laporte (01:48:16):
I bookmark it cuz I, I liked it so damn much. It's actually an article published. It was in published in the conversation and then TNW republished it. So I saw it there. I watched hundreds mm-hmm <affirmative> of flat earth videos to learn how conspiracy theories spread and what it could mean for finding this information. I'll give you the TLDR. Thank you. There. There's not much to learn. <Laugh> <laugh> basically countering disinformation is difficult when people internalize it as a personal belief. Well, yeah, shocking fact checking could be ineffective and backfire because disinformation becomes a personal opinion or more importantly a value. So you're attacking their values. 

Glenn Fleishman (01:49:07):
I was told facts. Don't care about your feelings though.

Leo Laporte (01:49:09):
Yeah, well and apparently feelings.

Glenn Fleishman (01:49:12):
It meant ironic.

Ant Pruitt (01:49:13):
Yes. And feelings don't care about facts either

Leo Laporte (01:49:16):
It's care

Glenn Fleishman (01:49:16):
Feelings. That's real. That's

Leo Laporte (01:49:17):
Good. If you can identify the rationality behind their specific beliefs, a counterargument can engage that logic. If you can propose a homemade experiment, but overall beliefs like flat earth theory QAN on and the great replacement theory grow because they appeal to a sense of group identity under attack. It's precisely because people are attacking you for your beliefs, that they solidify that you adhere to them because you're on you're on this, this in group that is being attacked even far Fest misinformation and conspiracies can seem rational if they fit into existing grievances, since debates on social media require only posting content participants create a feedback loop that solidifies disinformation as points of view that cannot be fact checked. So

Glenn Fleishman (01:50:05):
There you go. Okay. Easy thing you put 'em in the bottom of well and they can just reproduce the method. I mean I'm sure we'll just take people, put 'em in the bottom of well. Yeah. And they can reproduce the method that was used in ancient

Leo Laporte (01:50:16):
Toe or somebody. Right. Oh, very good.

Glenn Fleishman (01:50:18):
Eric, Eric toonies that sounds right. I mean, come it's flat earth thing is hilarious because nobody has thought the earth. I shouldn't say nobody. The primary belief among people who engaged in various kinds of philosophical and scientific work across millennia has been that the earth is round because it's easily proven. So you can go to all these cultures at their height and some that maintain their height for millennia. And they're like, yeah, yeah, the Earth's round doesn't do us any good, but it's round. We think it might be 14,000 miles around. That was wrong. But you know,

Leo Laporte (01:50:48):
He Eric Tashan had heard from travelers about a well in Egypt with an interesting property at noon on the summer solstice, the sun illuminated the entire bottom of the well without casting any shadows indicating that sun was directly overhead. He measured the angle of a shadow cast by a stick at noon on the summer solstice in Alexandria found, which was some distance away from that. Well found, it made an angle of 7.2 degrees. One 50 of the complete circle. Did the calculation came up with an estimate that the circumference of the round earth, I should point out. This is in this is in 500 B. It is circumference. You say circum of round or actually listen, 2 76 BC. He estimated to be about 24, between 24,020 9,000 miles. It is in fact exactly 24,900 miles. So he pretty much nailed it. Yeah. Good. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> by putting a stick in a well <laugh> so we, if you pay attention during math class, there

Glenn Fleishman (01:51:54):
You go. If you show kids a stick today, they won't listen

Leo Laporte (01:51:57):
To, they don't get it. <Laugh> find me a well I'll show you.

Glenn Fleishman (01:52:03):
Give me a, give me a lever big enough and I'll move the earth. Come on.

Leo Laporte (01:52:06):
That's right.

Glenn Fleishman (01:52:08):
I'm ING here.

Leo Laporte (01:52:11):
I'm ING here. Ming. I'm ING here.

Glenn Fleishman (01:52:15):
Find new catchphrase. Just

Leo Laporte (01:52:16):
Try to it's good. I think a bumper sticker would be handy. I'm ING ING here. Meta Warren's employees of serious times. Should we be concerned? Where's

Glenn Fleishman (01:52:28):
The serious music

Leo Laporte (01:52:29):
Here. We are in serious times here. And the headwinds are fierce, fierce, an internal memo warning of a leaner second half 2022 from a chief product officer Chris Cox, I have to underscore Cox wrote that we are in serious times here. The headwinds are fierce. We need to execute flawlessly in an environment of slower growth where teams should not expect vast influxes of new engineers and budgets. Wait a minute. This is exactly the memo. Lisa just wrote <laugh> you're ceiling bursts. It's on you. The biggest revenue challenge continues to come from privacy changes, affecting me's ad business and macroeconomic pressures.

Jeff Jarvis (01:53:21):
And by the way, your stock options are gland underwater folks.

Leo Laporte (01:53:25):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> monetizing.

Glenn Fleishman (01:53:26):
Are they doing restricted stock units or do they do options at meta? I don't

Jeff Jarvis (01:53:30):
Know. It's a good

Glenn Fleishman (01:53:30):
Question. I mean, that was Microsoft secret is they kept people during some bad times because they switched to RSUs. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:53:39):
I got RSU at time, Inc at the worst possible time in the middle of a takeover fight with paramount at Warner. And so it was at the highest it was ever was or ever was going to be. And I only recently got rid of the last of them.

Glenn Fleishman (01:53:55):
Oh man.

Leo Laporte (01:53:56):
Facebook gives you RSU. They learn less.

Glenn Fleishman (01:54:00):
That's not bad, easier to make money. That way. It's easier to, to entice people too. Cause you can say here's a million bucks worth these. If you come and work at our lousy comp oh sorry, our company.

Leo Laporte (01:54:09):
Yeah. <laugh> you say lousy.

Glenn Fleishman (01:54:10):
<Laugh> no editorializing.

Leo Laporte (01:54:13):
Facebook R hear this is from the product manual product. Not the product manual. This is from the employee handbook. Facebook RSU are a valuable benefit for Facebook employees. As long as you understand the tax implications of the investment and plan accordingly with your tax advisor, it can be a benefit greater than traditional stock options offer. Thank you.

Glenn Fleishman (01:54:36):
I'll tell you, Microsoft, you know, is a dominant force and Amazon in the Seattle area. And I was at the eye doctor with my one of my old, my kid older kid the other day. And we were talking about benefits. They're like, oh, do you have Microsoft insurance? We're like, no, they're like,

Leo Laporte (01:54:48):
Oh, oh. And

Glenn Fleishman (01:54:50):
It's like, it is such a gold.

Leo Laporte (01:54:51):
I have Boeing up here. Oh, get outta my,

Glenn Fleishman (01:54:55):
If we have individual insurance, but it's not bad for pediatric optical, but it's, you know, I have a friend who his husband worked for Microsoft. She's like, I got my braces for free. You know, it's just, it's incredible what they do well. So they restrictive talk units in good benefits.

Leo Laporte (01:55:09):
Yeah. So among other things Facebook says we have to monetize reels as quickly as possible. This is Chris Cox again. And we talked about this yesterday, I'm fine with that. Reels. Instagram has just basically turned into TikTok, right? Tiktok, TikTok clone. If you post a video, it's a real automatically on its

Jeff Jarvis (01:55:33):
Aunt seemed to, to scowl a bit at that.

Leo Laporte (01:55:37):
Well, well the thing is I I'm fortunate where I'm not just a photographer that

Ant Pruitt (01:55:43):
That shoots stills. I also shoot video stuff. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so I'm, I'm fine with it. But the folks that don't do the video stuff, it, it, it sucks for the photography community because now their work is being just suppressed and pushed down because they're not posting video content and I've done the AB test before, whether it's on TikTok or Instagram, particularly in Instagram, I see what people are viewing in my analytics and can see where the comments are. And people will comment on an image that's posted three, four days ago as if it was just posted right now. But the video content, they see that pretty quickly.

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:20):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and so the algo is pushing the video.

Ant Pruitt (01:56:26):
Oh yeah. And there's some other things in place too, but I won't get into all of that, but it, it it's, I'm fine with this. If they want to start monetizing reels. Sure. I'm fine with that. I believe I'm eligible for it for it anyway.

Leo Laporte (01:56:40):
Yeah. Monetizing would be nice. Yeah. Yeah. It ain't TikTok yet, but I

Ant Pruitt (01:56:46):
Can. No, it's nowhere near

Leo Laporte (01:56:48):
The problem is I have TikTok. I, I want Instagram to be Instagram. I miss the old stills of Instagram. That was a great way to share photos.

Ant Pruitt (01:56:56):
Same here. I mean the whole algorithmic feed versus the following feed. I think that's what they call it. That's that's it that's fallacy because I click on that to make sure it's only showing me the people I follow and it still will throw in suggestive. Oh really?

Leo Laporte (01:57:12):
List

Ant Pruitt (01:57:13):
Of things that I don't care anything about. Yeah. And it drives me nuts. So I'm still missing out on a lot of the people that I want to see unless I actively search

Glenn Fleishman (01:57:25):
Is so bad on Instagram. I can never find

Ant Pruitt (01:57:26):
People.

Glenn Fleishman (01:57:28):
I mean, it's yeah. Talk about searching Facebook. Just improve that one. Yeah. Yeah. They don't. Neither of them feel like it's important to let people search cause they wanna push you to where it provides them. The best revenue response

Jeff Jarvis (01:57:38):
Is that the strategy I've never been able to figure out why you, if you wanna find a friend, you can't

Glenn Fleishman (01:57:43):
AR arguably that, why would they let you search on what you want? Because that doesn't produce them the best outcome. You're the product,

Ant Pruitt (01:57:51):
You know? And

Jeff Jarvis (01:57:52):
But if you find more friends you're happier.

Glenn Fleishman (01:57:55):
Well, I don't, I don't have a problem finding people. It's always like it's keywords or not even keywords. I mean, Instagram is focused a lot around keywords. I, I mean, you know, I know you probably have strategies for this. I have so many friends who post on Instagram and there's like 40 keywords in their yep. Description, cuz that's the only way. Isn't it. To get people to find you sure

Ant Pruitt (01:58:12):
Enough. Put, put those, those tags in and worse.

Leo Laporte (01:58:16):
They put hashtags for random products in there too. I guess it's oh interesting. I mean, it's crazy. What's going on.

Ant Pruitt (01:58:22):
But you, you were saying Mr. Laport, you, you, it's not, it's definitely not a TikTok. And I agree with that because at least TikTok, it was a good job or a fairly good job of, of suggesting content to you. Granted you follow salt, underscore Hank who has over gazillion followers right now. <Laugh> I barely get to see his content, even though I actively follow him, but they do try to push up. Yeah. Yeah. But they do try to push up other things. To me that would interest me Instagram. On the other hand, they're constantly showing me a bunch of teenagers, throwing weird stuff that I care, nothing about or people fighting. And I'm like, really? I don't, I don't wanna see any of this stuff.

Glenn Fleishman (01:59:03):
Yeah. Do you, do you get the one? There's the, it's a very cool process, but I've seen it a lot. And you know, Jeff, you'll appreciate this. As somebody interested in praying technology, it's the thing where they print ceramics or they use this thing and it goes boo and some ink and then goes BR and then it puts, oh, I love that underneath. And it goes,

Leo Laporte (01:59:17):
I love

Glenn Fleishman (01:59:18):
That this all the time. Yeah. It's

Ant Pruitt (01:59:19):
Beautiful. I'm not seeing that.

Glenn Fleishman (01:59:21):
Oh, oh, it's an incredible thing. The pattern is like this flexible, gooey, like almost rubbery looking thing. And it's got the entire interior pattern of like a dish, like a plate or a bowl or something. So you know like those, when you go to a Chinese restaurant, they have this beautifully like fish blue fish, decorated patterns around a bowl. This is what makes it is a thing goes, the pattern is on the rubber surface. It goes onto a pad of ink, comes up a bowl, goes in it and it goes B and it fills the entire space perfectly and deposits the ink. I'm sorry. These sounds too much.

Ant Pruitt (01:59:56):
I'm no I'm doing so here captured a Jiff of this. Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (02:00:01):
But Instagram wants to push that at me all the time. Here is how these bowls are made.

Leo Laporte (02:00:05):
This is actually an argument.

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:06):
I dare you to make a show title. What?

Leo Laporte (02:00:09):
This is an argument for white TikTok is great because you said Instagram. Do you mean TikTok? Or do you see this on Instagram?

Glenn Fleishman (02:00:17):
Me on Instagram. I don't do the, I don't do the tick or the

Leo Laporte (02:00:20):
Talk talk. It used to be a big TikTok meme. So it must have spread over to Instagram. It's probably there, but somebody was making this case, I think maybe was on Twitter on Sunday. You were here. Glenn. But that in the TikTok is really opening our eyes to all sorts of things we would never see before, including industrial processes. I think that's partly cuz a lot of the original talkers were Chinese showing how they were manufacturing, the world's goods. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but it's, it's actually quite fascinating.

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:49):
One of my favorites is the underscore captain underscore mark on TikTok. Ooh, he's a me container ship captain.

Leo Laporte (02:00:56):
There you go. Oh,

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:58):
Neat. Okay. I'm fascinated by it. Right. But videos of these, of these, of these containers going down 10 levels and up and, and little factoids about how he does his work. It's it's, it's weird. It's but I love it.

Leo Laporte (02:01:12):
Well, I'm following him right now. Although as you point out aunt following him doesn't necessarily get you anymore of his stuff than,

Jeff Jarvis (02:01:19):
But, but, but they, I do get a lot of his, cause I obviously like it and

Leo Laporte (02:01:23):
Well what you do the

Jeff Jarvis (02:01:24):
Real trick, but I also do with the Hank and I don't

Leo Laporte (02:01:26):
Get it. Yeah. The real trick is to go every time you see something you wanna see more of in the four you page, which is the random page, right? You just, you go into it and you look at a few videos from you're set and I've noticed you can really if you want bikini, rich content, go in there and look at the bikinis and you will get more. So whatever it is, you signal,

Jeff Jarvis (02:01:48):
I've done that with Hank and I don't get Hank.

Leo Laporte (02:01:50):
I get a lot of, well, I don't get Hank. I get a lot of cooking is what I get. I

Ant Pruitt (02:01:54):
Get a lot of cooking, but I, I, I I'm specifically looking for,

Leo Laporte (02:01:57):
For a Hank. Yeah. Cause I'm curious to see what he's doing. Search. Yeah. You just have to search unfortunately. Which is too bad. I know exactly what you're talking about though with the loop thing. And I saw that originally on TikTok and it's my guess that it's appearing now on your Instagram because of TikTok envy, frankly on probably. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I love industrial processes. Show me more industrial process. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Watching all that stuff is made is fascinating. All right. We I've been just testing bonito. He has for the last hour and a half had his finger hovered over the, over the change log button and bonito. You are a rock. You are stellar because now I, you could finally release the hounds it's time for the Google change log.

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:46):
The Google change log. Look at

Leo Laporte (02:02:48):
Log unbeliev. That timing so good.

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:51):
You might well play the next one now. Cause there're not much of the

Leo Laporte (02:02:53):
Change log. There's four items. It is the world's shortest change log Android July security patches rolling out to the pixel factory images. That's about right. Usually takes about a week into of the month. It's coming out July 20, 22 update now rolling out to galaxy devices as well. That's unusual. That's good. Samsung. Good job. Google photos is now rolling out a lot of rolling happening on the change log today. Rolling out a new popup hotels. Yeah, that's it. It's all rolls. New popup UI for quick share, quick sharing and library management. I haven't seen it yet, but look for a new interface to quick sharing. I do. I do actually really love these highlights and things that they generate. So I end up sharing those a lot, you know, pictures of pets and things like that. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (02:03:44):
I like the little memory stuff that pops

Leo Laporte (02:03:46):
Up. Yeah. Apple does pretty well too with with that on their but

Jeff Jarvis (02:03:51):
The last two years, it's ridiculous. It's just like

Leo Laporte (02:03:54):
Your, I had no life. The last two years masks. Lots of masks. Yeah. And there is a new zero day threat the fourth of the year for Google Chrome. We talked about it yesterday on security now. Good news. There is a patch your Google Chrome will be patched. It's a fairly serious zero day. So make sure you get the update to your Google Chrome should happen automatically. And that's the Google change lock.

Jeff Jarvis (02:04:24):
That was

Leo Laporte (02:04:25):
Fast. All right. I am ready. I know you are for the picks of the week. That's coming up next as we continue with a very fun this week in Google. Thanks Glenn Fleishman for filling in. Stacy's got a couple of weeks off. We really appreciate you coming in. It's always good

Glenn Fleishman (02:04:43):
Pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me on pleasure to be here.

Leo Laporte (02:04:45):
You're taking Stacey's

Jeff Jarvis (02:04:47):
Paris and you're here. Who won? She's

Leo Laporte (02:04:48):
In Paris. Oh, <laugh> she's at that? What do they call it? Whamo Mamo. Whammo. Whoa, whoa. Yeah. Loran. She's she's speaking on something about open IOT, I believe is what she said. RO whoa, whoa, whoa, Loran low Raro

Glenn Fleishman (02:05:06):
<Laugh> somebody's hit Leo. He's come to

Leo Laporte (02:05:08):
Us. Crashed. <Laugh> low ran, low ran. Do you have a pick of the week for us, Mr. Fleishman?

Glenn Fleishman (02:05:17):
I do. And it's very appropriate. I think given the audience, I it's a, it's a book by a graphic design production person who works in movies, which is a very specialized thing. I saw some images from it and got a copy. It's called fake love letters, forced forged telegrams and prison, escape maps, designing graphic props for filmmaking <laugh> and it's just got wonderful details in it. And I mean, I love this stuff. I eat it up, but it's just it's a lovingly loving little book. It's not a big book, but it's just kind of about the process of making films look like their lived in, you know, and looking and, and even the degree of research, they go where they are like, oh, that didn't exist in 1922. We can't put that in. But this is one of my favorite things. It's look at that. She did some research and found this sign on the left. It's a legitimate sign that shows steamed eels and mashed potatoes.

Leo Laporte (02:06:10):
Oh God

Glenn Fleishman (02:06:11):
Always ready. Common dish. This is from 1900 common dish at the time. Eels were very popular eating in England and then her version for a film where they were trying to recreate that, that feeling. But she said, you know, this is the thing is the, the eels part and mash potatoe is not surprising. The always ready part the things she said. I couldn't guess that without doing the

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:34):
Compare, the Amber sand, wait Glenn, hold on there. Compare the Amber episodes.

Glenn Fleishman (02:06:37):
Yeah. Oh, who's is not too, but she

Leo Laporte (02:06:41):
Hold the modern version. The modern am. Amber sand is so different. Well, that's pretty what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, no. That's

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:47):
Now look at hers. No, it's she the

Glenn Fleishman (02:06:50):
Same? Okay. It's a little bit clean that, right. It's I think this was for

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:55):
I love Amber sand's in

Glenn Fleishman (02:06:57):
Benny dreadful, but, but it's just, it's just fun to see how it's a great mix of, I'll tell you this other thing. It's very tactile. I can't do this on a podcast or videocast, but there's actually a special kind of varnish. So the covers smooth and this area that shows the match book has a oil. Oh, I love that texture on it. Oh, I love so it's not just shiny, which most varnishes it's actually got a little bit of rough feel to it. So I just found this a delightful thing to read. Cause it's about, you know, creating new things and just the, the complexities of movie prop making without going super inside baseball, like they had to make, you know, if you wanna put one telegram, bloodstain, telegram into a movie as appears in I think it's the grand Budapest hotel you have to make like 47 of them. <Laugh> that look nearly identical because what happens when they have to shoot that scene again? And again, you can't not have these props available. Here we go. That's the spread

Leo Laporte (02:07:49):
Look at that. So

Glenn Fleishman (02:07:50):
They're all slightly different, but close enough. Wow.

Leo Laporte (02:07:53):
Because,

Glenn Fleishman (02:07:54):
So they have to design it. Yeah. And then make to use multiples. So anyway, it's just a, it's a fun read. It's a short book and it's just beautiful and beautifully designed. And that made me

Leo Laporte (02:08:03):
Happy. Annie Atkins, fake love letters, forged telegrams and prison, escape, mats maps, designing graphic props for film making available and paperback from Amazon. There's an analogous craft called playback that maybe is more timely, which is those computer screens you see in movies and TV shows. There is a person I've talked to them because they use stuff from our show. Sometimes that does that, that makes those screens and they make, oh, that's great. It's a, that's a, that would be a great book. I'd love to, or a video or something. I'd love to see more about that. It also reminds me of when we went to see Hamilton in New York, you know, every once in a while in Broadway, they do these benefits for Broadway cares where they they're auctioning off things. And I kick myself because I didn't stick around and buy this, but they were selling. There's a moment in Hamilton. I think is it, his wife burns his love letters.

Glenn Fleishman (02:09:00):
Yes. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (02:09:01):
Yeah. There, they throw the love letters in and they burn them. They were selling those love letters from the set,

Glenn Fleishman (02:09:10):
Oh dude,

Leo Laporte (02:09:10):
Same thing somebody had to make 'em every, every show somebody had to make

Glenn Fleishman (02:09:14):
Your love letters, thousands of those,

Leo Laporte (02:09:16):
They were selling them. And I, you know, along with autograph posters, a bunch of other things, and I, I gave them money for Broadway care as I always do, but I wish I had stuck around. There was quite a press in the lobby. I wish I had stuck around to buy those, cuz that would've been in hindsight that would've been something to have

Glenn Fleishman (02:09:32):
Jeff fire up his iron hand press and make you some duplicate yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:09:35):
Letters.

Leo Laporte (02:09:36):
I sure. But those were on the stage. That was that was amazing. That's pretty cool. Yeah. I know you hate Hamilton and everything amp, but you know, that's pretty cool.

Glenn Fleishman (02:09:44):
I didn't say I hated Hamilton. I said I don't like musicals

Leo Laporte (02:09:48):
If you're gonna like any

Glenn Fleishman (02:09:49):
Musical. That's exactly what I

Leo Laporte (02:09:50):
Said. That's a pretty good musical.

Glenn Fleishman (02:09:52):
I love musicals, but I understand exactly why people hate musicals. Yeah. Me too. I'm ecumenical.

Leo Laporte (02:09:57):
Yeah. I, I happen to be on the love musicals side. Obviously

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:01):
I am totally get

Leo Laporte (02:10:02):
It. Jeff Jarvis, a number for us please.

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:04):
Well, I have one in a second, but I've gotta make Glenn jealous. I, I went to used bookstore last week and I got this Chronicles of genius and folly.

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:14):
Oh

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:14):
It is a, it is a history of the R ho printing press company.

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:19):
Oh my

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:20):
Oh, oh. We just geeked out together. We just

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:24):
Was that from like 1923 or something? 1930

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:29):
1979.

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:29):
Oh, oh interesting. Yeah. ho was the H OE was the main early manufacturer of press. And then a lot of other equipment helped transition printing from a kinda quiet little industry into this massive I mean there's, I have a picture of press. It's a 10 man press. And literally people are, it's like 40 feet high and people are standing on each level. Feeding people, feed paper

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:50):
End. Yeah,

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:50):
It looks ridiculous, but it was real.

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:52):
It's what made mass media possible.

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:54):
But that's why we're here today is

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:55):
My, that was my little moment for Glenn there. Thank you. Speak geek out on these things.

Glenn Fleishman (02:10:59):
Notice

Leo Laporte (02:11:01):
Just been handed this, the curatorial care of works of art on paper. Had I only bought those SS and love letters. I would be able to conserve them Burke, why? This is like how to keep mold and insects off. C

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:18):
Where did this come from? Go from, why do we have this handy?

Leo Laporte (02:11:23):
It's probably had handy right

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:24):
Back there in the everything else is,

Leo Laporte (02:11:27):
Oh my God.

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:27):
Monitoring conservation lab. It's a very, very,

Leo Laporte (02:11:30):
Oh this are you trying to restore some art Burke? I am. Oh, he's trying to restore some art wows melt. Have you learned about the removal of old matting material?

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:40):
Very complicated.

Leo Laporte (02:11:41):
Very complicated. Not an easy thing

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:42):
To do. Okay. Special blues

Leo Laporte (02:11:45):
Dissecting by fumigation.

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:46):
There's a great book from the 18 hundreds called the enemy of books and it includes things like children and the help <laugh> it's 

Leo Laporte (02:11:54):
The help often

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:57):
Hass

Leo Laporte (02:11:58):
Facts, factual

Glenn Fleishman (02:11:58):
Insects, but also children

Leo Laporte (02:12:01):
And help.

Glenn Fleishman (02:12:01):
And your maids many.

Leo Laporte (02:12:02):
I just believe you had this to Berg. Thank that's amazing. Thank you very much. He is our that's awesome. Our official restorer.

Glenn Fleishman (02:12:09):
Jeff. I just wanna point out the red line type book. My, my real background here.

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:13):
I, I saw

Glenn Fleishman (02:12:13):
That finally got one.

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:15):
You did? Yeah. What year?

Glenn Fleishman (02:12:18):
Oh, I, that, I don't know. I have to pull it off, but it's 2020s. It's a little distressed copy, but now I've get one of

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:23):
My own. Those are the, those are the, those are the font sample books, which are just beautiful. It's just, just amazing.

Leo Laporte (02:12:28):
Well, you

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:29):
I'm. This is not my pick

Leo Laporte (02:12:31):
Here.

Glenn Fleishman (02:12:31):
Just give us this week in fonts. We'll be all set.

Jeff Jarvis (02:12:34):
Yeah, we are. By the way, I had to learn that a font is one. Tell me if I'm wrong here, Glenn, a font is one size. The design is the typeface

Glenn Fleishman (02:12:42):
Type type one size and style. That's right. Cause you would create a font. You would buy a font of type. There's a Walt Whitman PO poem called the font of type back

Leo Laporte (02:12:51):
Here and just font right here. Just as long as we're like squaring. The circle here is a video of printing on ceramics.

Glenn Fleishman (02:13:01):
Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:13:02):
Oh yes. Just watch. Here's the

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:05):
Do the sound effects here at Glenn, please.

Leo Laporte (02:13:08):
And here comes the ball. Never saw

Glenn Fleishman (02:13:15):
Isn't this

Leo Laporte (02:13:17):
It's pretty cool. Oh wow. Okay. If you, if you're just watching, it's incredible. And if you're just listening, you're just gonna have to imagine a giant rubber bloop. <Laugh> I,

Glenn Fleishman (02:13:30):
But would you ever, this is what I love about manufacturing processes. Would you ever have imagined this? No. Like Dr. Seuss thing was how this

Leo Laporte (02:13:38):
Were made. Exactly. Totally.

Glenn Fleishman (02:13:39):
I think it was sprayed onto a stencil or something.

Leo Laporte (02:13:41):
Yeah. It's totally

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:42):
Some poor little lady sitting there. Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (02:13:44):
Oh yeah. Painting, brush, dead getting

Leo Laporte (02:13:47):
Cancer. Nope.

Glenn Fleishman (02:13:48):
It's

Leo Laporte (02:13:53):
Any other picks numbers?

Jeff Jarvis (02:13:55):
I just wanna show. I just, I've never shown this up since been since Glenns

Leo Laporte (02:13:58):
Here. How about Arby's old spice? I'm gonna get to that. The autumn title. Middle ages. Wow. What

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:06):
Is AUM of middle ages by Johan ska is a magnificent, magnificent history. Beautiful book. One of the most beautiful books I've I've ever owned.

Glenn Fleishman (02:14:15):
Interesting.

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:16):
Not it. All right. Alright. Now. Yes. Now that's the classy me. Now we go to the real me <laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:14:21):
And if it's hard to compete with a giant, but I think you might we're here today. Might have found it. Yes.

Jeff Jarvis (02:14:28):
Arby's old spice at alls space come together for

Leo Laporte (02:14:32):
It's a col what? The kids call in heaven. A collab between old spice and Arby's show my screen. Bonita. Here you go. Get ready for the meat sweats. Arby's half pound roast beef piled high. And of course you eat that. Oh, wait minute. I'll turn on this. Let's turn on the sound. Can you turn on the sound? We didn't check our sound. I don't know if we have the sound

Speaker 8 (02:14:58):
Arby's half pound roast beef piled high with meat sweats. Who said that? Old spice meat, sweat, defense defense against the meat sweats. I'm on a horsey sauce. AR these, we have the all half.

Leo Laporte (02:15:14):
That is the strangest. It's not a real or is it

Glenn Fleishman (02:15:18):
Its no, its yeah. What are they promoting though?

Leo Laporte (02:15:21):
I don't even they're giant half pound roast sandwich sweats.

Glenn Fleishman (02:15:25):
I need that sandwich

Jeff Jarvis (02:15:27):
By the way. Are you, are you horsey? Horsey sauce fans.

Leo Laporte (02:15:30):
I'm on a horsey. Wait a minute. They have horsey sauce. That's not made up. Yeah,

Glenn Fleishman (02:15:33):
No

Jeff Jarvis (02:15:34):
That's oh no it's not. Oh no. For years

Glenn Fleishman (02:15:36):
I've been an Arby's

Leo Laporte (02:15:36):
Sauce. Why do they call it? Horsey sauce. Horse. Horse. Oh, horse radi. Radish.

Glenn Fleishman (02:15:41):
I've not been in an Arby's for 30 years. Maybe longer. Oh, bless your heart. Am I missing? Am I missing out?

Leo Laporte (02:15:46):
I, I go couple times a year. I just like Plaino roast beef sandwiches, but is it really roast beef? It's so pink. I feel like it might be made out of, is it real rubber

Glenn Fleishman (02:15:55):
Kangaroo?

Leo Laporte (02:15:56):
<Laugh> it feels like it's formed. It's not like roast like

Jeff Jarvis (02:16:02):
So, so I used to work at steakhouse.

Leo Laporte (02:16:04):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:16:05):
And all of our beef came from low grade Australian beef.

Glenn Fleishman (02:16:10):
Oh.

Leo Laporte (02:16:11):
Oh.

Jeff Jarvis (02:16:12):
And if you, if you took a, a raw defrosted steak and you bent it back, you saw needle marks every quarter inch

Leo Laporte (02:16:21):
A tenderizer.

Jeff Jarvis (02:16:22):
Isn't it tenderizer, right? Right. Yeah. So yes. It may be beef Leo, but who knows where it comes

Leo Laporte (02:16:28):
From? Low quality of Australian beef.

Ant Pruitt (02:16:31):
It taste

Leo Laporte (02:16:31):
Fine. <Laugh> tastes fine. Right? I'll take your word for it. Cuz you were not wrong about the Popeye's chicken,

Ant Pruitt (02:16:37):
The Popeye's chicken sauce. Well,

Jeff Jarvis (02:16:38):
I, I, I, I, I was right now. I didn't know when my son lived in Boston. I go to Boston and I could never understand. Finally, just as he was moving away, why does everybody in Boston have roast beef pizza and roast beef? It makes no sense. Pizza and roast beef roast beef. The Irish. I finally had a Massachusetts roast beef sandwich. Yeah. With horse reddish and

Leo Laporte (02:17:00):
Oh man,

Ant Pruitt (02:17:02):
Dude.

Leo Laporte (02:17:02):
That's the real thing. All right. It's no clam cake, but I'll give I'll grant you. I got you. That's good. I was in the lane of clam cakes last week and oh, more than my share. Let's put it that. <Laugh> also had some dunking. Now it is time for aunt Pruit and his pick of the week.

Ant Pruitt (02:17:20):
All right. Mine will be quick. First one. I just wanna do a bit of a public service announcement. Yes. I know a lot of folks have been wanting to get into being more healthy, getting out, exercising, even buying a bike. If he can get your hands on one particularly e-bikes well, Walmart has come to the rescue to give us an e-bike and I want to tell you don't buy that bike.

Leo Laporte (02:17:41):
Oh thank you. Whoa. It's 1500 bucks. You're saving me some money.

Ant Pruitt (02:17:46):
Do not buy that bike. It's say e-bike mountain bike. And I've had mountain bikes in the past. I used to ride quite a bit, but now doctors orders tell me not to

Leo Laporte (02:17:57):
Ride. Oh, that's sad

Ant Pruitt (02:18:00):
To ride. Well, because, because they're crashing. So, and I don't wanna destroy my replaced

Leo Laporte (02:18:03):
Tip. Yeah. That's good point. And

Ant Pruitt (02:18:05):
I've had inexpensive bikes before I've had bikes from Walmart and other inexpensive bikes. They do not last. So do not spend $1,500 on this. E-Bike as much as they're trying to sell it, get something else. Get you a non e-bike for a

Leo Laporte (02:18:20):
Lot less. You did a review on an e-bike for us. And I'm trying to remember what?

Ant Pruitt (02:18:24):
Yes I did. Van move

Leo Laporte (02:18:25):
The van move. These are like considered kind of the top line. Dutch

Ant Pruitt (02:18:29):
Van move are quite nice. Yeah, they

Leo Laporte (02:18:31):
<Laugh>. Yeah, those bike it's quite expensive.

Ant Pruitt (02:18:34):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>

Leo Laporte (02:18:34):
But you liked the van move. You get

Ant Pruitt (02:18:35):
What you pay for. Yeah. That's the thing you get what you pay for? Yeah. That's it. The van move.

Leo Laporte (02:18:40):
Yeah. There are some real breakthroughs in e-bike. I'm a huge e-bike fan. I just, I love electric bikes. But the one

Ant Pruitt (02:18:47):
On the left is what I demoed. Yeah. The steps one

Leo Laporte (02:18:49):
On the left. Oh, you, you had the one how much?

Jeff Jarvis (02:18:51):
Huh? How much

Leo Laporte (02:18:52):
Y'all do. They're

Ant Pruitt (02:18:53):
Like it's like 3,200. I think that's

Leo Laporte (02:18:55):
Not bad. No, actually it's not bad. I mean we have a specialized for our kid. That's with $7,000. This is 3000. Yeah. The S file. Yeah. That is actually not bad. And look how elegant it is. You don't have a big ugly battery on the thing.

Ant Pruitt (02:19:12):
I mean, I'm looking at the, I believe Mr. Nielsen coined did the Tesla of bikes. Yes. <Laugh> where

Jeff Jarvis (02:19:17):
We, well don't salts. The thing

Leo Laporte (02:19:18):
Was pretty. No,

Ant Pruitt (02:19:19):
It was just really pretty beautiful lines. You didn't see any of the cabling and it, yeah. There's, there's a, a review out there on our

Glenn Fleishman (02:19:27):
Website somewhere. Yes. I'm looking at rad bikes because I'm one,

Leo Laporte (02:19:31):
I have three rad power bikes.

Glenn Fleishman (02:19:33):
That's great. They, you have a, I think they're eight headquartered in Seattle so I can go and test them out here, but

Leo Laporte (02:19:37):
I love ours.

Glenn Fleishman (02:19:38):
Nice. Seem to have some good entry level models for a non mountain bike version. I'm very curious.

Leo Laporte (02:19:42):
We have, we have Lisa has the fat tire. One, I have the city step through. They're excellent. They're they're lower costs. So you're gonna, some of the components won't be the best, like the brake pads. You have to replace the brake pads every once in a while, things like that. But they're I really like our red power, really? Red bikes. Yeah. I could recommend those. And the electric does reviews of electric bikes, which I, I trust and I think they're quite good. They're electric car magazine as well. And they have some good recommendations, but I love my rad power. I'm very, very happy

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:19):
With. So how much does that run do?

Leo Laporte (02:20:21):
They're more like 1500 bucks. They're not bad.

Glenn Fleishman (02:20:24):
Yeah. I can go a test drive here in Seattle and I could rent it for a day. I think.

Leo Laporte (02:20:28):
Do you wanna offroad or you want a city, city bike?

Glenn Fleishman (02:20:31):
I I'm just a city person. I've got, I got knees and other issues. So I can't do the Hills. I'm too. I'm too old for the Hills with my current set of health and recommendations. So Seattle known for Hills as you'll see next week, I believe.

Leo Laporte (02:20:44):
Yeah, I will. This is what I have. You're not the red city do mountain bike. Step through. It's rough. These are great. Get a step through. Wow. It's not a girl's bike. It's just an easy to get on bike. 

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:56):
Girls, old guys.

Leo Laporte (02:20:56):
Yeah. And I really, I really, I haven't seen these other ones. True. And then I got a basket for mine, so I can go to the grocery store and get a big old basket on that thing. It's great. Toto,

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:05):
Toto,

Leo Laporte (02:21:06):
Toto, and the

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:07):
Best stay away from him.

Leo Laporte (02:21:11):
But Lisa has the the big fat tire offroad, the red Rover. And she loves that bike. That's a great looking bike, but again, we've had to replace the brake pads after a year of use and, and stuff like that. There's just little maintenance things. You have to do maintenance, but they work great. So,

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:26):
So how does it work? You can, you can just draw the power and not pedal at all on a big hill. Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (02:21:34):
Yeah. It's pedal assist mostly.

Leo Laporte (02:21:36):
Well. So there's two ways you can do an e-bike. You can do pedal assist, which, which you have to pedal, or it won't go anywhere. The specializes like that. Most of the bikes I get, including all the red powers have throttles. So you could just push the throttle and go forward as steep hill. You're gonna have to pedal, you're gonna have to help it. It doesn't have so much passion.

Glenn Fleishman (02:21:55):
Yeah. That's

Leo Laporte (02:21:55):
What I'm, it can get checked through.

Glenn Fleishman (02:21:57):
But we had the city full of e-bikes here. You know, Seattle was one of the places where like, I know five or seven companies deployed all those bikes at once and then they moved into e-bikes. So I was able to test some of those and I thought, wow, this is a whole different thing than I don't know, 15 years ago. And I saw people buying e-bikes and before lithium ion batteries were reliable and all that. And I felt like gotta cut again into this. I wanna get out more and less driving

Leo Laporte (02:22:18):
If you are gonna if you have your kids are a little older. Now, if I had little kids, they have rad power bikes, four kids that who, I mean that you put the kids on the back, they have cargo bikes, this rad rag wagon you could pull, you could pull cargo behind you. Nice. This is for a kid to sit on the back. I

Glenn Fleishman (02:22:38):
Have a friend of the Netherlands who she had four children and you know, the Netherlands is very flat. Oh, they love their bikes, bike friendly. She, the, the B feats, you know, the cargo bike. And she would take, I saw pictures of her where there are four small children. Yeah. Driving them all around the big cargo thing. Yeah. And I was like, how fast can you go? And she's like, well, you know, like five miles an hour, but that's all we need. Everything's close together. It's all cool.

Leo Laporte (02:22:57):
I see, I see families on their red powers all over town. Oh, that's great. It's really cute. They're really? Yeah. It's really cute. I love it. I'm big fan. I just wish it were safe. <Laugh> because it really isn't safe to bicycle anywhere around here.

Jeff Jarvis (02:23:11):
Yeah. I've got I, I live on country roads. Two lane roads out here and yellow, you know, yellow line roads and

Leo Laporte (02:23:20):
Hard

Ant Pruitt (02:23:21):
History had scooters, hard head and scooter. They wanted to bike what you like, what you had because they saw 'em at your house, but they ended up getting scooters and they loved those

Leo Laporte (02:23:31):
Things. Oh, those are great. Perfect. For there.

Glenn Fleishman (02:23:32):
More portable too. I know.

Ant Pruitt (02:23:34):
Right? Yeah. And they can rarely just Michael

Leo Laporte (02:23:36):
Used

Ant Pruitt (02:23:36):
And lock 'em up.

Leo Laporte (02:23:37):
Michael used to take the smart train the light rail to close to school and then he'd bring a scooter and he'd get on his scooter and go the extra mile to school. He did that. That's great. All through high school. It was really great. Did you want to plug these this battery quick charger too?

Ant Pruitt (02:23:52):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is a funny story because I bought, I was talking to Mr. Nielsen earlier. I, I needed to get a new V Mount battery to put on my video camera that I'm talking to right now, cuz I'm starting to do some more video work. And the reason I got away from V Mount batteries, cuz they were too big and bulky. So I was using what we call what's called these N P batteries. So they're smaller, lighter. Just don't have a ton of power. But when you go to charge, 'em up this battery right here, it takes about 12 hours to be.

Leo Laporte (02:24:25):
Yeah. That's the price, a big old battery.

Ant Pruitt (02:24:27):
<Laugh> 12 dagum hours and I have a have one that's smaller than that. And it still takes it about eight hours to charge. Well this here is from ZG C it's an NPF battery charger. That's a quick charger. It uses USSD C PD. So if you get something like what we talked about earlier with no bad sponsor and you know, having a G charger, plug it up to that, it will cut that time in half. If not more, I charge that's nice. This NPF I think this one was about two and a half hours to charge up full.

Leo Laporte (02:25:01):
Wow.

Ant Pruitt (02:25:02):
And it's only 30 bucks for that. So I was like, yeah, that get dose. And it came with these nice pretty cables too, cuz y'all know. I love orange.

Leo Laporte (02:25:11):
So V Mount means the battery is mounted kind of on top of the camera. Not inside the camera.

Ant Pruitt (02:25:17):
So yeah, this is, yeah. This is a V Mount battery right here. It's called a V Mount because it locks into a plate that's shaped like a V.

Leo Laporte (02:25:25):
So what do you do with the battery? You don't use the internal battery at all on the camera, correct?

Ant Pruitt (02:25:29):
Because cinema <laugh> cinema batteries on the internal side are so

Leo Laporte (02:25:33):
Weak. Yeah. They don't last very long. Yeah. No. So you put that on top and how do you tell the camera that it's getting juice from that battery?

Ant Pruitt (02:25:41):
You can use a DTaP connecting connection or it depends on your, your camera you can use

Leo Laporte (02:25:47):
Use. So they're designed, they're designed to do this. They understand that you're mm-hmm, <affirmative> you're doing it somewhere else. Cool. All right. Very good. And prot is our photographer extraordinaire at hands on photography, but he has another job. We love the job he's doing as community manager of the club. TWI, we wanna get you in club twit because it's very important to us in our success. Club twit supporters help us launch new shows, help us do amazing things help us, you know, buy kangaroo steak, all of the above <laugh> and of course you get a benefit too. Not only do you get access to our club, TWI discord, which is a great time. It's a, it's a social event all by itself. Chat rooms about each show about many nerdy topics. We don't yet have a long room, but I think we might great one <laugh> there is a room about books.

Leo Laporte (02:26:43):
Oh boy. Yeah, but not flying yet. Food gaming, hacking, ham radio philosophy, science software, and sport all in there. You also get access to the TWI plus feed, which I think is soon going to have a a feature segment on my ceiling. Gushing fourth. I don't know. <Laugh> I think we caught that on video. Apparently all the stuff that doesn't make it to the shows and add free versions of all the shows and that's only seven bucks a month, 84 bucks a year get the year plan. And you don't have to think about it for 12 months, twit.tv/club TWI. That makes a good gift too, by the way for family and friends, if you know somebody who loves twit, this is a great way to help us and give them a gift. I think they'll enjoy twit.tv/club, TWI corporate memberships also available.

Leo Laporte (02:27:33):
We do this week in tech every we no, Nope. This in this. Nope. Google. This is Google. I know we did. We actually did talk about Google affair. It's kind of our, remember that it's kind the TWI cousin show it's the cousin likes it. He's the little kids' table. Yeah. Well I don't think so. I mean, when you get great people, by the way, I should thank you Glenn Fleishman. You're always a pleasure to have one he's a double duty this week. Glenn.fun is his website, G L E N N dot F U N. You can learn all about his appearances on jeopardy and his book, passion and all this stuff that he does. He's a regular at Mac world. In fact, he does the nine one M 9 1 1 column in Mac world, which is a much needed and very useful column. And it's just a hell of a gen fellas. So nice. Thank you. You very much. Thank you for being here for Stacy. We pleasure. Thanks also to of course we have a new credit for you actually, Jeff, right? What was it you were saying? Oh no, no. He said oh no, I've forgotten. I was gonna make sure that it got into your your credits, something he said earlier. Now I've forgotten

Glenn Fleishman (02:28:39):
The committee that he was on. Is that the,

Leo Laporte (02:28:41):
No, I never mentioned we don't. We try,

Jeff Jarvis (02:28:43):
He tries a lot of high level working group on content for univers express

Leo Laporte (02:28:46):
To

Glenn Fleishman (02:28:46):
Talk about that. That's the one I was thinking of.

Leo Laporte (02:28:48):
<Laugh> I've forgotten what it was. He is the director of the town night center for entrepreneurial journalism at the Craig Newmark graduate school of journalism at the city university of New York, Frank Sinatra called him a bum Ray CRO Ray crock called him a nickel millionaire nickel million

Jeff Jarvis (02:29:08):
Alan thick begged me to, to stop making him my, my whipping boy. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (02:29:13):
Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (02:29:13):
A

Leo Laporte (02:29:13):
Thick, a thick there's a name.

Glenn Fleishman (02:29:16):
I'm sorry. Now

Jeff Jarvis (02:29:18):
Jay Leto wondered why I was so mean.

Glenn Fleishman (02:29:21):
Wow.

Leo Laporte (02:29:22):
There was another credit I really, I try was trying to, oh, Manny mentioned

Jeff Jarvis (02:29:26):
Chat room. What

Leo Laporte (02:29:27):
Was it? What was it I'm trying to, trying to remember.

Glenn Fleishman (02:29:30):
Worst I ever got is the art director of time magazine called me up and yelled at me, but I, I don't even work for time magazine at the time. It was very, what did you do? I, I worked on the I don't think you can see it in this view. If I have to turn my camera, I worked on the Ted Turner man of the year cover back in was at 92.

Glenn Fleishman (02:29:46):
Wow. And I was just, I was working for Kodak. We had this place up in Maine called the Kodak center for creative imaging. And we had some of the most advanced equipment under one roof. And so photographer Gregory Heisler fantastic award winning photographer had come, come up and taught some classes and done some stuff. And he said, Hey, can I come up and do this secret project? And we said, sure, my boss said sure. And he came up and we one of my good friends, who's one of the people I managed there. She worked with him for a couple weeks straight and he kept asking for more hard drives. So I'd come in and help and consult on we're using retro set color studio to produce this. This was Photoshop and electroset color studio. We were, we were scanning film. We, I had to keep pulling out 500 megabyte drives and chaining them together. It was an incredible effort. We exceeded the capacity of technology at the time to produce it, but it was running late. And so instead of calling Greg, who is the high paid wonderful photographer, really lovely guy, the art director called me, got my number from someplace and yelled at me. And I said, look, I'm, I'm just, I'm just plugging hard drives in. I'm just plugging

Leo Laporte (02:30:53):
Hard drives in. I'm not important. 

Glenn Fleishman (02:30:56):
Is

Jeff Jarvis (02:30:56):
The art director said what's a hard drive.

Leo Laporte (02:30:57):
Is it cuz you had all this compositing to do with all these other images? Oh my God.

Glenn Fleishman (02:31:01):
There's so much compositing. It was yeah, we were scanning all these slides from frames, all those images in the cover you see there, this is the time end of the year. They were all individual frames taken from CNN and Greg had shot Ted Turner. The next year Greg got in trouble because he shot George. The two faces of, of George Bush. That's George HW Bush. And he did it in camera. So he had a, a large format, two and a half inch camera. I think it is right. Two inch or the film camera. And he shot Bush, his two profiles simultaneously in camera and got temporarily banned from the white house and the white house press court had a go and stand up for him because they said editorial opinions are not something you ban people for in this country. Strange.

Leo Laporte (02:31:44):
Wow. That's kind of wild.

Glenn Fleishman (02:31:47):
Wow. Yeah. Back at. But have you used to hang around with photographers?

Leo Laporte (02:31:50):
Yeah.

Glenn Fleishman (02:31:51):
Like and the pretty museum there. Have you been in the pretty museum in Haal mass? Top of my list. I haven't been there. You haven't been still, oh folks, folks, folks. It's been a pandemic. Jeff. You haven't heard about it, but there's been a pandemic.

Leo Laporte (02:32:07):
Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. So, so why did the two faces cover get him in trouble?

Glenn Fleishman (02:32:12):
Well, he did it. Yeah, he did it there. He did it. So in camera he literally took, he composed, this is how brilliant a photography. He brilliant. Technically this is brilliant. That was shot in. So there's no

Leo Laporte (02:32:25):
On one frame of frame film, you open the shutter twice. One exactly. Position left positioned. Right? Look

Glenn Fleishman (02:32:31):
At that. I mean, that's an incredible compositional thing and they were really mad that he had done it essentially in front of Bush. And he was following a brief given to him by time. Not, you know, it's the time men of the year were the two faces of George Bush were the two bushes, pretty badass

Leo Laporte (02:32:45):
Brother. Rude. Yeah. Wow.

Glenn Fleishman (02:32:46):
I know isn't that it's, you know, and he wasn't being a jerk. He was doing his job and he was, you know, just like a writer taking notes might say George Bush is two faced. You know, he did it with visual shoot. I don't need

Leo Laporte (02:32:58):
No layer of mask. Just gimme the camera. He said, ironically, nowadays it'd be easy to do. But mm-hmm then, and to do it in camera was tough.

Glenn Fleishman (02:33:06):
Who has, who has large format film anymore? Yeah, that's right. Bring new people.

Leo Laporte (02:33:09):
That's right. Yeah. We do this week in Google, every Wednesday, 2:00 PM. Pacific 5:00 PM. Eastern 2100 UTC. You could watch us live. If you wish at live, do twi.tv. There's also a audio stream there. You can listen and watch live chat with us. Live@Ircdottwi.Tv. After the fact on demand versions of the show available at twi.tv/TWIG also on there's a YouTube channel dedicated to this weekend, Google, you could subscribe. Of course, that's probably the easiest thing to do. And your favorite podcast player and get it automatically. The moment it's available, the conversation continues after the show on our forums at twit.community. Lots of great conversations there. It's free to join. I

Glenn Fleishman (02:33:54):
Like hanging out in there.

Leo Laporte (02:33:55):
It's good ants in there on a regular basis. That's our forums. We also have a mast on instance, which is a lot of fun too. And you can join that easily too. That's a twi.social. Those are both open to all that's it for this edition of this weekend. Google we'll see you all next week. Bye bye.

Glenn Fleishman (02:34:16):
The world is

Speaker 9 (02:34:16):
Changing rapidly so rapidly. In fact that it's hard to keep up. That's why Micah Sergeant and I, Jason Howell talk with the people, Macon and breaking the tech news on tech news weekly. Every Thursday, they know these stories better than anyone. So why not get them to talk about it in their own words, subscribe to tech news weekly and you won't miss a beat every Thursday at twit TV