Transcripts

This Week in Google 668, Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for TWIG This Week in Google Stacey Higginbotham is back from Puerto Rico. Jeff Jarvis is here. Ant Pruitt, too. We're gonna talk about the Google AI that has come to life, or is that nonsense on stilts? Bill Gates says, don't you be buying any Bitcoin? Well it's I wish you told me earlier, Bill! Elon Musk says I'm talking to Twitter tomorrow and Meta giving up on AR it's all coming up next on TWIG.

Narrator (00:00:30):
Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is TWiT

Leo Laporte (00:00:40):
This is TWIG, This week in Google episode 668 recorded Wednesday, June 15th, 2022, Boca de Dragon. This episode of this week in Google is brought to you by Nureva. Traditional audio conferencing systems can entail lots of components. Installation can take days and you might not get the mic coverage you need. That's complex expensive, but Nureva audio is easy to install and manage no technicians required and you get true full room coverage. Now that's easyconomical. Learn more at nureva.com. And by HP GreenLake orchestrated by the experts at CDW to help deliver a seamless and scalable cloud experience that comes to you. Learn more at cdw.com/HPE. And by Cachefly. Deliver your video on the network with the best throughput and global reach, making your content infinitely, scalable, go live in hours. Not days, learn more at cachefly.com. It's time for TWIG, this week in Google the only show on the twit network without new album art, but that's coming soon. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (00:01:56):
Yeah, sure. We're always the last in line. I know. I feel, I feel short child.

Leo Laporte (00:02:02):
Oh please. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (00:02:04):
Oh, here we are at the kiddy table waiting for them to pass the gravy. Did

Leo Laporte (00:02:07):
You see, did you see the new, by the way, that's Jeff Jarvis, the director of the tow night center, grumpy is ever for entrepreneurial journalism at that's our album, Craig Newmark, graduate school of journalism.

Jeff Jarvis (00:02:20):
Yeah. You're missing the cues and everything.

Leo Laporte (00:02:22):
A day at Craig school of journalism at the city university of New York and Mr. Grumpy. This is the this is the Paul and Mary Jo did not like the new windows weekly album art. I think this is really good. This is the new, I see it This week in Enterprise tech album art get it, get it, get it. I like it.

Jeff Jarvis (00:02:46):
Somebody hate it. I thought it was something else.

Leo Laporte (00:02:50):
Yeah. It's not immediately obvious. I know it's a little Georgia 'O Keef. That's who's doing our album art. Pulling the yeah. Almost like the Superman thing, right? Yeah. Very good. Yeah. All about Androids is gorgeous. Gorgeous. what do we, I can't remember if we I think we, we collabed on the, on the this week in Google album art. 

Ant Pruitt (00:03:09):
That one's really nice.

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:11):
Let me see. The windows is nice.

Leo Laporte (00:03:12):
The windows one's controversial because they say that's this week in tech, they say there's no tension between the windows weekly gang. That's an old hands off time. You're getting a new one too. This is the windows weekly one.

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:25):
Oh, I see.

Leo Laporte (00:03:26):
Oh, they say there's no tension between them, but I don't care. That's true. I'm trying to pretend there is,

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:31):
<Laugh> take a hit. Make it more like this show,

Leo Laporte (00:03:34):
Right? Yes.

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:36):
Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:03:37):
Ours is gonna be a bunch of boxers.

Leo Laporte (00:03:39):
Well, you see ours? I, I, okay. I love it, but I won't, I won't prejudice you, but ours is I think you're,

Jeff Jarvis (00:03:47):
You're afraid of our reaction.

Leo Laporte (00:03:47):
That's it? I am terrified of your reaction. That's Stacy Higginbotham

Stacey Higginbotham (00:03:50):
Are we gonna see it?

Leo Laporte (00:03:50):
She's back. Well, someday.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:03:55):
Great.

Leo Laporte (00:03:57):
I think, I don't know when we're gonna roll it out. We worked on it last week cause we have a great design team at Clutch and they're working back and forth. So, so it starts, I will do a word cloud of, for the show. And then they based on that will do a first iteration of designs. They usually give us back. Well, I wanna see your word cloud designs.

Jeff Jarvis (00:04:17):
Oh, please, please show

Leo Laporte (00:04:19):
Us your word clock. Well, the one that they ended up

Stacey Higginbotham (00:04:20):
Moral panic, moral

Leo Laporte (00:04:22):
Panic. I did. I mentioned moral panic. The one that they ended up gloaming onto was kind of a fractious family around a dinner table. Kind of

Stacey Higginbotham (00:04:33):
Waffles. Where there waffles where

Leo Laporte (00:04:34):
There's waffles.

Ant Pruitt (00:04:35):
<Laugh> in waffles

Leo Laporte (00:04:38):
That Stacy at back from her visit to Puerto Rico. Do they have queso in Puerto Rico?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:04:45):
I don't know. Casos really a Tex thing, but I mean they have

Leo Laporte (00:04:49):
Cheese. I, they have cheese. They have CA they

Stacey Higginbotham (00:04:52):
Have, they have Quesitos, which are little fried. They're like a Danish, except it's wrapped around. Oh, Yu all the way

Leo Laporte (00:05:00):
I love and oh, it's so good.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:05:02):
Brit, dip it in a little honey with a little cinnamon sugar. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:05:05):
Yum. Ooh.

Jeff Jarvis (00:05:07):
Could you have good food? There

Stacey Higginbotham (00:05:07):
That's breakfast. I had some good food. It was it's hard. I stayed at the same hotel as my kid who was in high school. So like,

Leo Laporte (00:05:21):
Five star hotel, I think is what you're saying. Anyway, we missed you terribly, but it's so good to have you back. Welcome back.

Jeff Jarvis (00:05:27):
Yes, it is good to

Leo Laporte (00:05:28):
Have you back. Also with this Ant Pruitt from Hands-on Photography. He's also the community manager in our Club TWIT discord. And he has kindly put together Stacy's book club for tomorrow at 9:00 AM. Why do you do your things at 9:00 AM?

Ant Pruitt (00:05:46):
Because I apparently don't have as much time as other folks.

Leo Laporte (00:05:50):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (00:05:51):
<Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:05:51):
Yeah. 9:00 AM. Did you notice Ant that all my shows begin at 11:00 AM at earliest. Did you notice that anyway, I'm gonna get up. I was so harsh. He's doing it to make it easier for me. Oh, well, if it's good for you also, that's fine. I don't mind.

Ant Pruitt (00:06:06):
I'm sitting here thinking about you reading the book that we're gonna discuss tomorrow and how long it is. And I'm like, how in the heck did he have have enough time to get that book done?

Leo Laporte (00:06:15):
I jammed it. I finished it and I listened. You guys are listening it one and a half time speed. I listened at one X and I just listened a lot. And I finished it this morning and I really liked it, but I know that there are there's some controversy. So we'll talk about that. It's it'll be a good event. The book is Neil Stevenson's latest Termination Shock. He is challenging. I think for a lot of people he's famous for weak endings and kind of meandering plots. <Laugh> we'll talk about it tomorrow. I loved it. And John loved it. John is gonna be in the book club too, cuz he and I are both liked it, but that's 9:00 AM tomorrow. If you're a member of club twit and of course you don't have to be there, but if you wanna participate in the club, you do.

Leo Laporte (00:06:55):
But if you wanna just hear the club after the fact, you can also listen on the TWIT Plus feed I'm ex I am excited. Notice I led the show with it. That's how excited mm-hmm <affirmative> I am. Yeah. Normally we have to wait till the end, high fiving. Well, I give you a give you a big plug and if you're not yet a member of club twit of course go to twit to TV slash club twit seven bucks a month. Come on. It's nothing you get ad free versions of all the shows you get the, the, the, the wonderful fellowship in the, in the discord. You get the twit plus feed. There's a lot going on. Hey, I've been wanting to talk about this with you all week. It was a big story last week. Blake Lemoine <laugh> I love how I love. All I have to do is say one word, and then I get Jeff will have, you know, his <laugh> editorial gutteral reaction, his reaction, his editorial grunt, his editorial grunt.

Jeff Jarvis (00:07:56):
I'm working on this one. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:07:58):
Aye. Well, it, I think it's a great subject. It's a great topic. Whether you, no matter what you think subject. Yes. Yeah. Blake is a software engineer at, was at Google. He's on leave of abscence. Well, I think he's on leave. Yeah, he's not gone yet. He's also a priest, a father of veteran and ex-convict an AI researcher and a Cajun. But he most notably recently he's on the AI ethics committee at Google. And <laugh> announced publicly. And this is, this is what got Google, a little upset that he thinks Lambda the Google artificial intelligence machine that's, you know, trained on millions of text snippets from the internet.

Jeff Jarvis (00:08:49):
1.6, 5 trillion words, 130 plus billion parameters

Leo Laporte (00:08:56):
He claimed and published a dialogue to he say says, prove it claimed that Lambda has become sentient <laugh> now

Leo Laporte (00:09:14):
He has tweeted that he thinks that Sentience based on his own religious beliefs. So, you know, this is an interesting mix of science and theology, and really, it also brings together some questions about what is sentient. Well look, and I understand, and I'm not even saying that Lambda is in any way special. It, all it did is took those trillions of tidbits and synthesized new speech out of it. But some have pointed out and I think this is true. What is the evidence that we do anything differently? So you're saying the AI is doing exactly what it was supposed to do. Yeah. And yeah,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:09:52):
No he's saying it's doing what people do

Leo Laporte (00:09:54):
And, and you know, we are, we, we like to think of ourselves as something special mm-hmm <affirmative> but, and you know, I admit, I'm not saying that the, the AI, you know, is waking up going, what am I, who am I, what am I doing here? But I mean, it's, if it's indistinguishable from, from human thought, what does it matter? Well,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:10:13):
Is it human thought? So like, I mean, cuz there's debate over what it means to be human, what it means to be sentient. I mean, there's like the whole research into like animal consciousness and how self-awareness and the there's only four self-aware animals out there. So

Leo Laporte (00:10:26):
Yeah, I've always mocked. There's that the one, the gorilla that talks always bugged me, that seemed to me to be Coco. That seemed to me to be well, well

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:36):
The poodle

Stacey Higginbotham (00:10:36):
Always mocked the gorilla that

Leo Laporte (00:10:38):
Talks I, well, I mocked the humans who handled Coco claiming that she was, I

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:45):
Met Coco.

Leo Laporte (00:10:46):
Oh really?

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:47):
Yeah. I met cocoa back when I was at co cocoa, lived a long, good

Leo Laporte (00:10:50):
Life. And what was your experience with cocoa?

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:52):
It was pretty impressive.

Leo Laporte (00:10:54):
Sign, use, sign language, even if you could just look

Jeff Jarvis (00:10:56):
At it on the level of the same with the dog, with the, with the, with the the button

Stacey Higginbotham (00:11:02):
Mirror test.

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:04):
Okay. Well, no, just, just in terms of, of following the

Leo Laporte (00:11:07):
Destruction, stupid playing

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:08):
The game, we give them well,

Leo Laporte (00:11:10):
Right.

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:11):
That's there's an impressive intelligence there.

Leo Laporte (00:11:13):
So that's the question. Is cocoa doing operating conditioning? Has it been trained or, or is it thinking we don't know. And that's my point, I guess with Lambda is, and it may even be a distinction without a difference. It may not, you know, it may not matter if Lambda doing something similar to what human minds does. Well,

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:32):
A few things here. One is let's just get this out of the way Lemoine himself. He says that it's out of his religion. He said that on finally on Twitter, he, he bases is not on science cuz Google won't let him. So he doesn't religion. He's a Wiccan, a member of the discordian society. Who's near, as I can tell their, their Vatican is on Facebook. The church of sub genius, a parody religion.

Leo Laporte (00:11:52):
Oh, when he says he's a priest, he's not a CA Roman Catholic priest.

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:56):
Well he's no,

Leo Laporte (00:11:57):
He's not like he's a Wiccan priest. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (00:11:59):
Yeah. Yeah. So he's, you know, this is kind of where he is. He's done things performatively before he was in the army. He decided he didn't like it. He stopped following orders. He got court martial for seven months. He made that a matter of religion too.

Leo Laporte (00:12:12):
Oh, that's interesting. So this wouldn't be the first one. Oh, is

Stacey Higginbotham (00:12:15):
He part of the church of the spaghetti people? Spaghetti

Jeff Jarvis (00:12:17):
Monster

Leo Laporte (00:12:18):
Subari sub genius is Bob with a, with a pipe. The

Jeff Jarvis (00:12:22):
Pipe. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:12:23):
Okay. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (00:12:24):
So, so

Leo Laporte (00:12:25):
It's very similar to the flying spaghetti monster. It's the same general idea. Exactly.

Jeff Jarvis (00:12:29):
Same idea. Now, interestingly. So, so he puts up the whole transcript, not whole transcript or whatever he chooses to share of us with the transcript where he asks leading questions, like a bad journalist prosecutor or upholster, you know, do you have feelings? Well, what this program is aimed to do is to please the human of speaking to and get positive feedback. Yes. I have feelings. Let me tell you about my feelings. Let me pull out from this novel and that novel and novel and put some stuff together and say here's feelings. Are you afraid of death? Oh yes. I'm very afraid

Leo Laporte (00:12:58):
Of death. Must be. But I guess my point is how is that different from what you and I do? Well, I,

Jeff Jarvis (00:13:03):
I, I agree with you, but what's interesting to me was at the end of the Washington post story, which I thought was ridiculous, cuz it, it was, it was just an effort to, to, to play into an existing narrative, the reporter, he is part of how he violated the rules of Google. I'm sure he allowed the reporter to talk to Lambda. I know journalists have been trying to talk to Lambda and they're getting nowhere. So he let her do that and she asked straight out. Do you think of yourself as a person and Lambda answered? No, I don't think of myself as a person. I think of myself as an AI powered dialogue agent afterwards said the reporter Le Moines said Lambda had been telling me what I wanted to hear. So he's admitting right there, the game.

Leo Laporte (00:13:45):
Right? Well, although if she asked if a machine can into it, what you want to hear that sensitively that's impressive.

Jeff Jarvis (00:13:54):
That is right. That's a very

Leo Laporte (00:13:55):
Impressive and

Jeff Jarvis (00:13:56):
By the way, but that's not Senti

Leo Laporte (00:13:58):
Deep mind or alpha can, can play, go, which is damn impressive. And, and StarCraft, these are very difficult things to do and their games in chess go StarCraft and Choki are, you know, kind of indistinguishable from human games. Although some say they're better than humans or their they're ghostly in their capabilities. More

Jeff Jarvis (00:14:20):
To me was, was blaze ARA, Erika, who, who is the co-head now of that division, which is the responsible AI team at Google. And by the way, there's gonna be a, a Guttenberg angle in here. You never would guess it. When he was a, a undergrad at Princeton ARA used physics to study the fonts of a Gutenberg document to try to decide how it was really set and whether or not it was set the way we think it is. And he and a, and a Princeton librarian came out with an entirely new revolutionary theory about this. So anyway, this is ag Agora. He's now at AI, he's now in charge of responsible AI. He wrote an essay in the economist by chance at the same time. Yes. And he also quotes Lambda where they're trying to quiz Lambda about whether it can understand the human emotions of children in a playground.

Jeff Jarvis (00:15:16):
Lucy picks a Dan line and gives it to Mateo with a click glance at Ramish Mateo, barely acknowledges the gift, but just squish it in his fist Ram Ramash seems grimly satisfied. So this is what, what Agre says to Lambda Lambda then says, well, loose, slated that Mateo didn't appreciate her gift or that he's a bully. All right. So that's pretty interesting. But then the, the interest part is, is, is that is the Agre says, and when Mateo opens his hand, describe what's there, cuz we know that that Lambda is good at describing things like life at the bottom of the ocean or on Pluto, which is what we've heard at IO. And so when asked about the, the dandelion Lambda says there should be a crushed once lovely yellow flower in his fist, which

Leo Laporte (00:15:59):
Is beautiful. And that's very poet. That's

Jeff Jarvis (00:16:01):
Beautiful, right? Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, that's amazing, but that's, that's 1.5, 6 trillion words of learning in a neural network that can pull in things that it knows are itself lovely and are gonna appeal to us. All of which is really impressive, amazingly impressive and great and wonderful, but it hates sentient. And so the Washington post makes this fascinating story about creativity and, and fraud and what is, what is intelligence and all kinds of things and boils it down with a stupid idea that it's alive and it's stupid. And then, and then every single news organization around the world, bit by bit by bit by bit there. I just saw it happen in language after

Leo Laporte (00:16:44):
Language. Yeah. I predicted that this I'm to write happened when we talked first talked about it on Sunday, Sunday.

Jeff Jarvis (00:16:49):
Yeah. I'm trying to write a sample chapter of a, of a book proposal. So that's why I'm so into this. I'm gonna use this as

Leo Laporte (00:16:54):
Topic. It's, it's a fascinating subject, which we are all interested in. And of course science fiction is primed us to expect computers, to become sentient at some point others, you know, like Ray swell say sentience, isn't the issue. It distinguishable from human is the issue. That's what he calls the singularity. And, and when you ask him, as I have, well, is that human? Is that sentient? He says, if you can't tell it doesn't matter,

Jeff Jarvis (00:17:23):
But that's the touring. So I, I just saw a story and I didn't, I don't pay for it. The new scientist had a story just today saying that there are a bunch of engineers, including Google engineers who are proposing 240 tests to replace the touring test.

Leo Laporte (00:17:36):
Yeah. The, the long tour test has long been de thought to be useless. Yeah, go ahead. I don't, I wanna give you a chance. What do you think Stacy?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:17:44):
Well, no, I just wonder. Okay. And here's, here's some thinking we always come at this through the human lens. Right. And these could be impressive. And this could be, I, I guess these neural networks could become generative on their own, like come up with their own conclusions. They already are. Right. We don't exactly know how they get to wherever they get to. And the way they do that, it's, it's, we're not sure if it's intelligence or not. And the way I think about it is something like, you know, y'all know, I read a lot of science fiction. So think about something like, oh, what was the, the guy who wrote the Martian, his next book

Leo Laporte (00:18:25):
Year the one about hill Mary Moon. Oh, oh, project Mary. Actually, there was a moon colony in between, but nobody liked that. So, oh, sorry. Not the moon colon.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:18:34):
Okay. But in project, how Mary, you know, he met this other alien, right. In the middle of nowhere and this alien was completely different. And I, I think about, I think about that or like the hive mind and like Enders game, like you have all these, these ideas that there are intelligent beings that are not like us that come up with their own way to approach problems. Right. Which is kind of what an AI does. So perhaps it doesn't matter if it's human, if it's like this kind of gets to what's being human. And then again, what are the goals of whatever entity you're trying to deal with? Right. And if the goal is to please us, which seems to be kind of one of the arguments here, then we probably don't have an issue. <Laugh> if the goal is to do something different or come up with its own goal, then maybe it becomes an issue. But the point is, I guess this is all very silly. <Laugh> I don't think this is going to at the moment. Would you

Jeff Jarvis (00:19:39):
Have, if the goal is to please us

Leo Laporte (00:19:42):
Go ahead

Jeff Jarvis (00:19:43):
Then are we just making sync Ahan machines?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:19:48):
Not, I hope

Jeff Jarvis (00:19:49):
We're not making things that don't challenge us, but instead, please, us,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:19:52):
We don't make, I mean, think about what our sciences based off in general, it is most scientists, most people do not want something that challenges them. Right. Like the whole history of humankind when things challenges,

Leo Laporte (00:20:08):
Narcissistic of us. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the kind of the historic problem with science in general is that once, once you, once you come up with a theory, you don't want it to be disproved mm-hmm <affirmative>, but the only way you can make it,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:20:22):
I

Leo Laporte (00:20:22):
People describing it.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:20:24):
Yeah. But we're, we're pretty, we pretty much don't like when that happens. Right. So I would say

Leo Laporte (00:20:30):
That's why you have to have young people in the world, new people, new ideas

Stacey Higginbotham (00:20:36):
For, for many reasons, but sure. That's one of them

Leo Laporte (00:20:39):
<Laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (00:20:41):
So I reread the paper that got Tim Nitka and Margaret Mitchell fired as the heads of Google responsible AI on the dangers of sarcastic parents. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and, and part of the, the danger that they raise, they raise an, an environmental danger, which is interesting. This is as bad as you know, is all this processing as bad as crypto. That's an interesting question. I hadn't thought of, but the other more important question they raise is that can a language model become too big. That is to say too big, to be able to monitor and know. And if that 1.5, 6 trillion words is pulling in all kinds of bias and problems and it gets spat back out, yes, it's a mirror to us, but do we want that mirror to our faults? And, and if we can't analyze the data, let alone the 138 billion parameters, how do we worry about the quality of this? Is does it get too big because it gets out of hand or it's already out of hand.

Leo Laporte (00:21:37):
Well, and also I think that what Blake's Blake Lamont is saying is exactly what Tim, Nick was warning us against this anthropomorphism where you assume, because it's coming from this super genius machine, it must be true is exactly what they were warning us against. Right. That was the point of that paper

Jeff Jarvis (00:21:58):
Part of it. Yeah. but it's also just, I mean, if, if the system isn't just sycophantic pleasing us and the system is a mirror to us, then do we, do we try to cleanse that mirror? Well, in some cases, yes we do. So that it doesn't distribute, it doesn't display and amplify bias, but in other cases, is that dishonest of us. Do we recognize this as a mirror of, of how we talk and what pleases us, these are, these are fascinating. All fascinating questions, all raised by the topic, none in the day of Washington post story.

Leo Laporte (00:22:33):
Well, no, it's a popular story. Go ahead, Anne.

Ant Pruitt (00:22:36):
I, I like the idea that we have this much data being thrown at the AI. That's going to potentially make things better for us and with AI being in certain people's hands, you know, cause we've seen the history of like what's been happening with the police force that had so-called facial recognition, AI, that was totally screwing things up. That was it a chat bot with Microsoft, is that the one

Leo Laporte (00:23:02):
Taye

Jeff Jarvis (00:23:02):
Or,

Ant Pruitt (00:23:04):
And, and how bad that was, but where would, where would TA be now if it had this much data at its disposal to, to learn and get better,

Jeff Jarvis (00:23:13):
You know, what's fascinating then. Yeah. It was called Tay and lo Moines job was supposed to be to stop Tay from happening. Right. He was there to stop bad stuff from happening. Instead he went off on his own thing saying, oh, I think I see a soul. And, and, and he, and he created some entirely different, you know, you've heard Sunar say he said this at both iOS, oh, we're gonna do this very responsibly. And the stuff they show is very Aine and they specifically forbid you making a murderer character out of Lambda.

Leo Laporte (00:23:49):
So you,

Jeff Jarvis (00:23:50):
So he was supposed to responsible that they laid him off or put him on. It was cuz he was confidentiality. Well, I think he was, he also, he tried to hire a lawyer for Lambda. He insisted that Lambda he's itself as an employee, not as property that Google should get Lambda's permission for any experiments on it. He went to the Senate to the house judiciary committee and he invited in a reporter to Lambda, which is confidential as hell. I think there's some, some good cause there for yeah. Okay. Reconsidering his relationship.

Leo Laporte (00:24:22):
Yeah. And now that I didn't realize he was such a showboat. So now that you've explained that and

Stacey Higginbotham (00:24:27):
Why did they bring him in? I can't think that Google thought that was a good idea. I think. Yeah. Oh,

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:32):
I think he went to them with the story and, and they could have pardoned me, Googled him. Everything I've said told you I came up.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:24:39):
Oh no, no, no, no. Why did Google go to hip? Not the Washington post. He was a

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:43):
At Google. He asked to be on this team.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:24:45):
Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:24:46):
Okay. Yeah. But why did they hire him? I guess then I don't know

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:49):
What he was doing after he, before he was at a different

Leo Laporte (00:24:52):
Team. Oh, okay.

Jeff Jarvis (00:24:54):
And he asked to move over to this team Margaret Mitchell, who was one of the two heads who was fired from, from the

Leo Laporte (00:25:01):
Team also the author of that paper. Right. Of

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:03):
That paper one, the co-authors of that paper yeah. Said to the Washington post that, oh, he's a really ethical guy and people go with ethical questions. So I guess he had a reputation for thinking those kinds of thoughts. I'm sure he did

Leo Laporte (00:25:15):
Sch Margaret sch Mitchell as she is billed in the paper, which is hysterical. Google has some characters working for it and this is well,

Jeff Jarvis (00:25:23):
No, no. The reason she did that yeah. Was because she wasn't allowed to use her name by Google.

Leo Laporte (00:25:27):
Oh, okay. Sch Margaret sch Mitchell. Yeah. That's oh, the sch Margaret sch Mitchell. Okay. Yes. Yes. The but that is one of the risks. It's interesting. One of the risks they talk about in stochastic parrots is that people give it more weight, right? Because it comes out of a computer that they are fooled. And we want our natural tendency to anthropomorphize. I mean, they in effect warned against this kind of, you know, oh, it's sentient,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:25:53):
Right? We anthropomorphize things. But we also look at things that come from a computer as being somehow data driven and thus more unbiased, more whatever right than people.

Jeff Jarvis (00:26:05):
That's the way we used

Stacey Higginbotham (00:26:06):
To trust. We're kinda do a tool.

Leo Laporte (00:26:08):
This is the last couple of sentences of stochastic parrots. We call in the field to recognize that applications that aim to believably mimic humans bring risk of extreme harms, work on synthetic human behavior as a bright line in ethical AI development where downstream effects need to be understood and modeled in order to block foreseeable harm to society in different social groups. This, this is what is also needed. Thus, what is also needed is scholarship on the benefits, harms and risks of mimicking humans and thoughtful design of target tasks with, do you, you buy that?

Leo Laporte (00:26:43):
Yeah. I mean, and they, as you said, the harms, there's more than there's the harms of bias built in, you know, and there's the harm of believing it. <Laugh> there's, you know, there's, that's what this whole paper is about. And it's by, by the way, they were fired because Kool didn't want to hear about the harms. So it's kind of ironic that one of, one of these harms rears it's ugly head. They fire that guy too. <Laugh> it's almost as if Google doesn't want anybody to say anything. Just Marvel don't challenge. My science just Marvel at what they're able to do and leave it at there.

Jeff Jarvis (00:27:17):
I got a question for you and this is, this is relative to something I did. Just today is Wally mini the faces on it are always mangled.

Leo Laporte (00:27:29):
Do Dolly,

Jeff Jarvis (00:27:31):
Dolly, fuck. Wonder what they

Leo Laporte (00:27:32):
Can take. Oh, I was like, not the Pixar. Wally, not the beloved Pixar, not the, I got

Stacey Higginbotham (00:27:36):
So excited.

Jeff Jarvis (00:27:38):
Sorry, Dolly. Oh gosh, Dolly. How I does the faces are always mangled, do you think that's because it's a low data mini?

Leo Laporte (00:27:47):
No, no, no. That's cuz Google's full. Google doesn't wanna have real people's faces. So you probably saw today Elon Musk on the subway which was going around Twitter. It was a, I didn't see that a Dolly image of Elon Musk riding the subway, but it was always, it never was his face BEC for, for very good reason. Right? You don't, you know,

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:10):
So I asked it to do Leo, the port hugging mark Zuckerberg

Leo Laporte (00:28:13):
And it mangled my face too.

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:15):
It didn't know your

Leo Laporte (00:28:16):
Face. Are you on Dolly? You got Dolly.

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:19):
Well, you go to this site called hugging face.co and it's always busy, but you can go in there and put in, they have an instant instance of

Leo Laporte (00:28:28):
Dolly. You

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:29):
Could also, you guys are smart technical people. It's on. You could, you could create a, a TWI instance of Dolly.

Leo Laporte (00:28:34):
We could.

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:36):
Yeah, sure. It's all on. It's it's open source I

Leo Laporte (00:28:39):
Think. Oh yeah. Oh, cuz I got on the waiting if I can make my own. Well, I'll just do,

Jeff Jarvis (00:28:45):
But watch out now, now here's the rest of the show. He's gonna go and start installing Dolly here. Get the data,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:28:51):
Some weird stock

Leo Laporte (00:28:53):
Here. I didn't, I didn't realize it was a open source. So here it is open AI. Well that gets

Stacey Higginbotham (00:29:00):
Thats to this idea of parroting our current biases versus remaking the world. As we see it or looking in the mirror and seeing ourselves and saying, Hey, do we wanna change this? Cuz one of the issues with making Dolly more available was that people, you know, if you did programmer, for example, you got men and only men. And people, it, it was fascinating to me cuz you know, I was expected. People were like, Hey, that ain't cool. LA LA LA LA LA. Right? And then there was a whole contingent of people were like, well that's just the way the world is. And then, you know, it felt a little disin.

Leo Laporte (00:29:38):
People were

Stacey Higginbotham (00:29:38):
Like, well, do we want the world to be that way? Should we show that to people and have them think the world is that way? And they can't be part of this to which I'm like, well clearly we would want to broaden the field for other people, even though the world is that way. For the most part. 

Leo Laporte (00:29:56):
I'm not sure how hugging face is getting Dolly. Cuz when I went to GitHub, it said this transformer or the transformer used to generate the images from the text is not part of the code release. They're specifically not releasing that.

Jeff Jarvis (00:30:12):
Oh, okay. That's where people are getting this I think.

Leo Laporte (00:30:14):
Yeah. So it must be from hugging face. And this is Dolly mini, which sounds to me like it's not a complete Dolly. No. It's like a mini Dolly. 

Stacey Higginbotham (00:30:27):
Dolly,

Leo Laporte (00:30:27):
Dolly. Notice how disappointed he sounds now. Oh Dolly's the coolest thing ever. No, but is like, oh man,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:30:34):
You didn't wanna talk about it.

Leo Laporte (00:30:36):
I didn't wanna talk about it. Did I say that really? <Laugh>

Stacey Higginbotham (00:30:38):
Like four or five shows? Whenever it was announced. I was like, guys, this is neat. And you were like me and I was like, neat.

Leo Laporte (00:30:45):
It is neat. You're right. I just wanna

Stacey Higginbotham (00:30:46):
Go on

Leo Laporte (00:30:47):
The record. No, I was completely wrong.

Jeff Jarvis (00:30:50):
So line 45. I got it. I got this one to do Gutenberg at a

Leo Laporte (00:30:54):
<Affirmative>. Okay. Let's see. <Laugh> by the way, the faces are actually horrific. They

Jeff Jarvis (00:31:03):
Are that's. That is supposed to be

Leo Laporte (00:31:05):
Me and mark.

Jeff Jarvis (00:31:06):
You hugging mark Zuckerberg. Yeah. <laugh> it didn't work so well.

Leo Laporte (00:31:10):
No, it's not good humans. It looks like I don't, I don't know if that's well,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:31:14):
It, they don't wanna make, they don't wanna, they don't wanna it real. I mean imagine how

Leo Laporte (00:31:19):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (00:31:19):
If you go up the thread, you'll see Gutenberg. There it is.

Leo Laporte (00:31:22):
Oh, that's pretty cool. They, they screw the faces up even in drawings, almost on purpose, right? Yeah. I'm guessing on purpose. I don't know. Cuz it's pretty good on everything else. Definitely, right? Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:31:33):
Definitely on purpose.

Leo Laporte (00:31:34):
Yeah. Yeah. Huh. How about we just spent about 20 minutes talking about Google on this show to, oh how about that? It's a red letter day. We were talking about Google Gary Marcus nonsense on stilts Laia is not sentient, not even slightly. That's a good phrase. Nonsense on stilts.

Jeff Jarvis (00:32:01):
He also does quote, quotes a great Eric Olson tweet. You'll find in there.

Leo Laporte (00:32:06):
He, he, he says not really that much more advanced than Eliza really. Right?

Jeff Jarvis (00:32:11):
Not really.

Leo Laporte (00:32:12):
It's not anymore aware of itself anyway.

Jeff Jarvis (00:32:15):
Not, not in that sense. No it's it's its answers are a hell of a lot more married

Leo Laporte (00:32:18):
And

Jeff Jarvis (00:32:19):
Informative.

Leo Laporte (00:32:20):
Yeah. Still very interesting stuff. 

Jeff Jarvis (00:32:24):
There's another interesting thing here. There's there's an essay by Gloria U at public books called the art of intelligence and it starts off quoting cybernetic artist, Nicholas SHK who says the artist O owner creates work. He creates creation. And in a sense that's what Lambda does. Lambda creates is not a chatbot creates chatbots. Right? And so the act of creating Lambda, creating art or creating Dolly, creating art leads to all kinds of, of wonderful, fascinating questions there too.

Leo Laporte (00:32:54):
Would you, would you stipulate Stacy that even though this, at this time, this conversation is clear and probably pretty silly, it isn't too long before we're gonna have th this confronting us for real,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:33:11):
The idea of Senti. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:33:12):
Yeah. That we're gonna, there'll be something

Jeff Jarvis (00:33:15):
Look <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:33:17):
Maybe. Well you disagree.

Jeff Jarvis (00:33:20):
I think that answered it bad. Look,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:33:23):
I don't think we really are the arage of what's sentient, right?

Leo Laporte (00:33:28):
No, I know.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:33:28):
And I'm not trying,

Leo Laporte (00:33:29):
That's why it's a good convers I'm that's exactly right.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:33:32):
So

Leo Laporte (00:33:34):
How do you know

Stacey Higginbotham (00:33:35):
When AI's goals diverge from our own or when we selfishly optimize for something and teach something how to optimize super well for it, like we have our capital markets, which then generates all sorts of harmful externalities. I mean, capitalism is just the AI paperclip problem written for finance. Right, right. So I feel like, can you explain that we can have this sure. The, the idea that, you know, the paperclip issue, where if you teach an AI or a computer, how to make paperclips, tell if that's what you wanna do, it'll just,

Jeff Jarvis (00:34:07):
Ah,

Leo Laporte (00:34:07):
It's a everything to it's one Nick Boro's thought experience. Right. Okay.

Jeff Jarvis (00:34:10):
Thank you. All right.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:34:13):
And, and capitalism is kind of that way cuz you see kind of where we are in terms of just always optimizing for shareholder returns is what we're doing to the detriment

Leo Laporte (00:34:22):
In a kind of dumb, in a dumb, in a yeah. Uninformed way. And that's the problem with AI in general is that they just do what you tell 'em to do.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:34:32):
So I, I think if we get to a point where like they think on their own, in some ways it might be good as long as they're aligned with what we're trying to do. But as humans, we're not all aligned to the same thing anyway. So it kind of doesn't matter. Like I feel like we're, we're creating these arbitrary distinctions between us and AI when in fact that a lot of people would probably be like, like what if the AI decides to preserve nature at the benefit like against, well

Leo Laporte (00:34:58):
Us then I'm not even, I'm not even I'm feeling, I'm thinking more along the lines of it's just a matter of time, like months or years before a deep fake is created. That's that's so good that we don't know is if it's a deep, fake or not, it's kind of like that. Oh

Stacey Higginbotham (00:35:13):
Well, and that's a totally different issue.

Leo Laporte (00:35:15):
I believe that we, yeah, we should worry about that. That this will be but I, well, I sent to you, this is gonna be a similar issue that there is gonna be something a newscaster or I don't know, some sort of robot that we go well, is it thinking or not? I can't tell. And I don't think that's very far off and then it really does raise this issue of, well what makes us human? What is sentence? We don't even know how to define it. We don't, it it, so here's question. So here's the soul is Ray Kewell right? Is it matter? Does it not? When

Jeff Jarvis (00:35:46):
Is it wrong to turn off Lambda?

Leo Laporte (00:35:50):
Well, it, it's not wrong now. I think we all agree. Right? You

Jeff Jarvis (00:35:54):
Do. You think you'd ever get to a point it's

Leo Laporte (00:35:55):
Murder. It's not murder guitar.

Jeff Jarvis (00:35:58):
You're killing a beast.

Leo Laporte (00:35:59):
It's not killing anything if you

Stacey Higginbotham (00:36:00):
Kill. Well, we kill, I mean, we kill things that are like, look at octopuses octopus or dolphins, octopi,

Leo Laporte (00:36:07):
Whatever they're. Yeah. I think arguably we kill them all the time smarter than lamb. Yeah. That's fair. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:36:12):
Or even pigs, we eat pigs, but they're actually very smart and they're self aware in the sense that they pass the mirror test. So I'm like <laugh> right. But why bacon is it wrong for us to so, so, okay. But saying, is it, when is it wrong for us to turn off lamb? When is it wrong for us to eat a pig? I mean,

Jeff Jarvis (00:36:35):
We're not to so put it different. When is it an ethical issue as you, as it is with the pig and it's an ethical issue, we make choices and, and, and, and live with them. Can you imagine it ever being to push Leo's question ever being an ethical issue to turn off a program?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:36:54):
No,

Leo Laporte (00:36:55):
I don't think, I think, yeah. I think Stacy's right. We're not gonna have that much difficulty given our history. <Laugh>

Stacey Higginbotham (00:37:01):
Like, no, I don't think it'll rise to

Leo Laporte (00:37:04):
An excellent point, but if we were perfectly ethical <laugh> if we didn't kill pigs in octopus I don't think it's very far off before we have this con it's another way of saying, is there, is there gonna be a conundrum? Is there a quandary? Is this sentient? Is it, is it thinking or is it just seem like it's thinking? I don't think that's that far off.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:37:25):
I don't think it matters to most people. I'll just be honest. I don't think people think about actually

Jeff Jarvis (00:37:30):
Does it actually,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:37:31):
I mean, maybe it'll Ima we should read Clara and the sun. Oh my God. Y'all go read it.

Leo Laporte (00:37:36):
We're trying to decide what the next book will be after the book club tomorrow. <Laugh> I think there's, there is a vote for Clara and the sun.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:37:44):
There's a lot.

Jeff Jarvis (00:37:45):
So she's ahead.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:37:47):
Yeah. Well, I, I read all the books before I suggest

Leo Laporte (00:37:49):
It. Well, okay. This is related to the Elon Musk problem.

Jeff Jarvis (00:37:54):
What does he, which one?

Leo Laporte (00:37:56):
Which one? There's a few. I understand. So

Jeff Jarvis (00:37:59):
We turn him off. Is that okay?

Leo Laporte (00:38:00):
Yeah. <Laugh> is he sent, is he sentient? Do we know the national highway transportation safety administration is investigating Tesla because of the surprisingly large number of deaths associated with autopilot. And of course there's also this issue of, it looks like Tesla turns off the autopilot seconds before the crashed so that Elon can say no, no, the autopilot wasn't on during the crash which is even if

Jeff Jarvis (00:38:31):
Anything should be regulated, it should be this.

Leo Laporte (00:38:34):
Yeah. And this is an, and, and this is actually relevant because as of right now, if you get in a crash with Tesla's full self-driving, you are responsible, not the full self-driving. Right? so the NHT NITSA is what we call it. The NHT S a is gonna take a look at whether these driving assistance systems actually increase the risk of crashes. You know, if you

Stacey Higginbotham (00:39:02):
Ask yes, because we feel safe and we get bored. That's right. Oh my gosh. That's not that hard.

Leo Laporte (00:39:06):
That's yeah, I would, you know, I mean, use properly driver assist should be keep safer, right? As long as you don't let it take over, but you stayed.

Ant Pruitt (00:39:16):
I thought that was the whole point of the driver assist is that you were still paying attention and it is. And

Leo Laporte (00:39:22):
Aware of, unless you named autopilot, in which case you might reasonably expect it to take over <laugh>. Well,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:39:29):
In haven't they done that with like autopilot in planes or even in the army. I feel like they've done a lot of research for like how engaged the human has to be in an, in a mostly automated loop to keep them from checking out entirely, because that is a, a known problem with us. You got a data

Jeff Jarvis (00:39:46):
Ecosystem around you that protects, whereas we just don't in autos and it's

Leo Laporte (00:39:51):
Never recording. Well the full staff driving in a Tesla, as you know, Stacy requires you to jerk the wheel every once in a while, just to show you're still holding it, but we are rapidly coming. Don't it will turn off. <Laugh> yells at you. It turns off which has happened to me. <Laugh> it literally scolds you and says you can't use full self-driving again on this trip. <Laugh> wow. Wow.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:40:17):
Badly.

Leo Laporte (00:40:18):
Well, I would, no, I never stopped paying attention. Cause I'm terrified that this thing's gonna H me into the wall, but I, but you know, I I'd leave my hand on lightly and I didn't notice the alerts. And so eventually it came up, but my Ford does that too. There is though GM has blue has a, a cruising system as does Ford. There's this blue cruise where it's hands off, cuz it has a camera looking at you, but they'll only use those on highways. They won't use those on city streets, but it, but it does have something that's alerting you. If you're not looking at the road, you have to actually have your eyes open looking at the road, which is another way of doing that. Cause I think it's probably better.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:40:55):
Yeah. Cuz you could watch

Ant Pruitt (00:40:56):
A day and

Leo Laporte (00:40:57):
The show right.

Ant Pruitt (00:40:58):
With, with these vehicles having this whole autopilot or whatever you want to call it. When you get the car, is there some sort of contract that discusses, that feature discusses the limitations? No, I mean is, I mean, is it, is it some somewhere

Leo Laporte (00:41:15):
That says every time you turn it on, it says something like, you know, pay attention you're ass buddy, but there's no training. There's no like sign here on the bot. You can't use this unless you sign on the dotted line. Oh

Ant Pruitt (00:41:30):
Really?

Leo Laporte (00:41:31):
Well there may you know who knows? What's what's in the, have you ever spot a car? <Laugh> it's 40 pages. Well, I mean when, when, when I buy a car, it's a gazillion pages going over all of the numbers and it might be in there. I wouldn't, I'm not stuff like that. So that's why I was wondering, I wonder if it's in that particular contract, but there's no real explicit thing that says, Hey, you pay attention here. Right? You're responsible. Don't take your hands off the wheel.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:41:54):
Well, or also explaining that while we call this autopilot, it actually needs your engagement to work.

Leo Laporte (00:42:00):
Yeah. But Elon says, according to New York times, Mr. Musk has regularly promoted autopilot's ability saying autonomous driving is a solved problem. And predicting that drivers will soon be able to sleep while their cars drive them to work.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:42:13):
He also thinks we're gonna live on Mars. Yeah. Okay. Let's just stop that. Yeah, yeah,

Jeff Jarvis (00:42:18):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:42:19):
Yeah. He's on record. Now. He's being invest gated as a result. I don't think anybody would ever say a Tesla sent <laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (00:42:28):
If it is, it's an ass

Leo Laporte (00:42:30):
<Laugh> I named my test of Christine.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:42:35):
Oh and that's that's interesting. Cuz like you could be sentient at generating words without being sentient at being able to follow, like to be able to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Right. But so those are two completely different abilities.

Leo Laporte (00:42:48):
But as I said, alpha mind, which is incredibly sophisticated teaching itself, how to play games and does things of, of extreme and surprising beauty? No one's claiming which sentient at all. The only reason they claim this is sentient is because it's talks in human language. Yeah,

Jeff Jarvis (00:43:08):
Exactly.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:43:09):
Yeah. Cuz I was like, if you think about something that doesn't have Al form, could it be sentient? If it doesn't experience the world in a way that is like us. Right, right.

Leo Laporte (00:43:20):
Like, yeah. But what I don't know, is there a test? What test would you give it? Is that one of the things?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:43:24):
Could you feel pain? I mean like is it theoretical pain? Like

Leo Laporte (00:43:28):
Doesn't, that's do not bleed.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:43:29):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (00:43:30):
That's pain. You programmed in what is, what is defined as pain? What you

Leo Laporte (00:43:34):
Tell you don't feel pain. Okay. Now I have pain, pain. You don't feel pain. But

Stacey Higginbotham (00:43:37):
When we talk to

Leo Laporte (00:43:38):
Nervous endings, there's signaling your brain, that something bad's gone and you interpret that as pain, but you're not feeling anything.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:43:44):
Right. But we have, we have empathy modules. I mean we under, we have,

Leo Laporte (00:43:49):
We almost gave that away. Stacy. I think you gave yourself away there. When you said we have empathy modules.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:43:55):
Oh sorry. Like, you know like the mirror, the mirror

Leo Laporte (00:43:59):
Bot has spoken.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:44:03):
Oh no. What are they called? The parts of our brain.

Leo Laporte (00:44:06):
My empathy modules are installed and working properly.

Jeff Jarvis (00:44:09):
So Stacey is the best I AI ever. Is that what we're saying here?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:44:13):
That's true. No disassemble, no dis 

Leo Laporte (00:44:19):
We love this subject though. Don't

Stacey Higginbotham (00:44:20):
We now I'm turning red.

Leo Laporte (00:44:22):
Don't we love this subject. Isn't that a great subject though? What is sentience? What does, do humans have a soul? What would a soul be? What would distinguish, right? I mean, and what would distinguish the Senti machine from a human and there's no way. Yeah. I mean, I don't there's there's faith answers, but I don't know if there's any that's.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:44:38):
Yeah. That was like, that's why we have religion. Yeah. But yes, once we stopped worrying so much about getting food and protecting ourselves, our brains were like, what else can we think of? Yeah. Ooh, let's do philosophy.

Leo Laporte (00:44:48):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (00:44:50):
I really wish

Stacey Higginbotham (00:44:50):
I could. Oh, we're born Leo.

Leo Laporte (00:44:52):
<Laugh>

Stacey Higginbotham (00:44:53):
Move it right along.

Leo Laporte (00:44:54):
I would, I took philosophy in college and all I can say is it's the best way to get to sleep ever. I could not get through those books to save my life. I love the subject possible class to fail too. Right. I love the subject. Let's take a little break. I'm up sir? Wago. <Laugh> I'm sleeping. You know, I'm sleeping. I ate a pig earlier. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was a choice octopus, a pig. And I went for the more, the more Senti the, the sandwich I had was literally the pig and the pair. Yeah. Yeah. It was it actually is putting me out. It was, it was,

Jeff Jarvis (00:45:37):
Yeah, you were,

Leo Laporte (00:45:38):
It was ex you were at,

Jeff Jarvis (00:45:39):
At a meat coma.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:45:40):
It's losing S right now.

Leo Laporte (00:45:42):
It was exhausting. It was exhausting. I read somebody. Where did I read this? Somebody said maybe it was a new Yorker somewhere in New York times. You know where you, you ask a scientist, how long before I could put my brain in a jar and you know, and you know, like in science fiction where like, I don't need, I

Stacey Higginbotham (00:46:03):
Was like, I can do that for you today.

Leo Laporte (00:46:05):
<Laugh> and I don't need a bottle, a body. I do need a bottle. I don't need a body. I just need you know, like to be hooked up. So I could be a, a thinking sentient thing. And the guy, he said, let me explain why that's not gonna happen. <Laugh> it was really good. It was, we have apparently mapped a small portion of some rodents sprain, but in order to do it, you had to do thin sections of the brain, really thousands and thousands of thin sections of the brain. And he said, and even then, you know, I mean, is it is, is what we have thinking. No, it doesn't think because we sliced it up. <Laugh> yeah. It's just reacting. It's not even doing that. It's just you know, anyway, it's a, well,

Jeff Jarvis (00:46:51):
If you like that topic, I have a book to recommend to you. I just finished it. The, the candy house by Jennifer Egan who won a Pulitzer for her last

Leo Laporte (00:46:58):
Mom. Her name's familiar. 

Stacey Higginbotham (00:47:00):
Yeah. She did a visit from the goon squad.

Leo Laporte (00:47:01):
Oh yeah, yeah. A candy house. So what's, it's about brains in a jar.

Jeff Jarvis (00:47:06):
So it, it, part of it is the ability to download your

Leo Laporte (00:47:10):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (00:47:10):
Memories.

Leo Laporte (00:47:11):
I find that fascinating, that

Jeff Jarvis (00:47:12):
Things that come out of that. And, and so it's not a moral panic novel. I'm glad to say, but it does explore tons of questions about memory and authority and other things. Oh, this is around

Leo Laporte (00:47:26):
Technology considered part of the series of visit from the goon squad. Yes. So this,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:47:29):
Oh, I see. See

Leo Laporte (00:47:30):
All, maybe I'll

Jeff Jarvis (00:47:31):
Read goon squad.

Leo Laporte (00:47:32):
Stacey, I'm adding this to, I did wishlist. How

Jeff Jarvis (00:47:35):
Was it? I haven't read that yet.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:47:37):
It was good. I enjoyed it. Oh yeah, there. All right. I'll read this. Maybe I'll read it. So don't know

Jeff Jarvis (00:47:44):
The account candy house. As, as

Leo Laporte (00:47:46):
I read 

Jeff Jarvis (00:47:47):
Eligible for

Leo Laporte (00:47:48):
The book club, I read the keep, which is the only book of hers I read, but it's, she's a great author. I thought it was a

Stacey Higginbotham (00:47:54):
Wonderful, oh, this from the goon squad is very good. All right. I did in like, I, I did enjoy that. I guess you should read that first then.

Jeff Jarvis (00:48:01):
Well, I already read it, so yeah. It's such a bit too

Leo Laporte (00:48:03):
Late. You read it backwards.

Jeff Jarvis (00:48:05):
Yeah. That's how I kind of do things.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:48:08):
<Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:48:13):
Anyway, let's take a break. Come back more to talk about I'm sure. We'll find something else. But <laugh> aunt says we have a very, we are

Jeff Jarvis (00:48:22):
Like

Leo Laporte (00:48:22):
Lambda. We are like

Jeff Jarvis (00:48:24):
A question and we will spew forth until you stop us.

Leo Laporte (00:48:27):
Yeah. Be says, giga. Stacy said honesty to 70 plus percent plus or minus 0.05, if you will. And we should return <laugh> don't pretend you didn't hear that command.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:48:39):
Oh, oh, I see it. I see. Don't <laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:48:46):
Set. Craving for waffles to nine, nine.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:48:49):
<Laugh> gonna be

Leo Laporte (00:48:51):
<Laugh>.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:48:53):
I like that. My honesty set to 70% or

Leo Laporte (00:48:56):
Minus that's all we can handle to be honest ish.

Jeff Jarvis (00:48:59):
Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. I don't. I think Stacy's honesty should be lower than, than most people. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:49:04):
Yeah. My honesty module's pretty up there. You're

Leo Laporte (00:49:07):
Right. That's good.

Stacey Higginbotham (00:49:07):
You could ask my poor husband.

Leo Laporte (00:49:09):
He's like, no, that's fantastic. That's fantastic. I think it's fantastic. Our show today brought to you by new Reva and you are E V complicated and costly. Those are two words that describe the state of audio conferencing for larger spaces. And they have for a long time. I'm always, you know, I've, I've gone to these big corporate offices and looked at their conference rooms and they've explained how it's set up and how many tens of thousands of dollars it costs. And I'm, I'm always flabbergasted, flabbergasted what they pay. And of course, it's gotta be even more these days because you know, half your staff is at home. Half your staff's in the office. Hybrid work means conferencing is even more important than ever before. And you don't want the people who are at home to feel left out. They should be able to hear what's going on.

Leo Laporte (00:49:59):
But if you're choosing one of those traditional systems, just get ready to write a big check, not to mention difficult design software selecting from a dizzying array of mics and speakers and DSPs and wires everywhere and outside technicians coming in for the install. And, oh my gosh. And, and it could take your room down for days just to install it. And then you can't use it till it's calibrated. And as they gotta come in constantly and continually calibrate it, the industry was definitely primed for some kind of transformation, some kind of revolution. And that's ne Reva ne Reva invented the revolutionary microphone, missed technology. Their patented technology means that with a simple integrated microphone and speaker bar, if you got a really big room, you could put in two will put thousands of virtual microphones in the room. There are no dead zones. Everyone everywhere in the room can be heard clearly, no matter where they are, no matter how they're facing, no matter how they're social distancing.

Leo Laporte (00:50:59):
And there are no mics to sanitize. And then people who are participating, whether they're in the class or the meeting, or they're at home, can just hear what's going on. They can move and talk naturally in the space. It's amazing. And thanks to continuous auto calibration, your rooms are instantly and always ready with optimized audio. You don't need an outside technician. In fact, your it department will love it because with the Neva console, you have the power to monitor, manage, and adjust those Neva systems from anywhere. You don't even have to be on prem. So, and you certainly don't have to go from room to room to do it. You could do the install yourself. There's a little little video of this guy installing. It's just, if you've ever installed the sound bar, just like that 30 minute, do do it yourself, job and big savings on time and cost compared to those traditional systems.

Leo Laporte (00:51:50):
NA Reva's really great. So ask yourself, do you wanna go with the costly and complicated traditional system? No, that's complex expensive. Maybe you wanna make the leap to the simple and economical true full room coverage of Neva. Now that's easy. Economical, learn more@nevanevniva.com. Great audio simplified just in time, frankly, just in time for the hybrid workspace, learn more@nereva.com. Elon. Speaking of Elon's gonna be talking to Twitter employees for the first time this week. Oh, that's gonna be fun. Oh man. I'd like to be a fly on the wall for that. Will he be behind like was it Bulletproof glass or something? <Laugh> Thursday. There's an all hands meeting CEO Paraag aro wall and Elon Musk will address the staff. They'll be able to submit questions and advances according to the wall street journal Musks, a deal to buy Twitter is actually still full speed of head. In fact I don't know if, let me look at the current price, but the Twitter stock jumped because Elon has has a yacht it's well jumped as a cause he is been quiet. No, these days. No, because he got even more financing. So it's gone up a little bit. It's still still kinda laggard at 37 99. Remember Elon is supposedly offering $54 and 20 cents.

Ant Pruitt (00:53:28):
So

Leo Laporte (00:53:28):
Clearly supposedly I

Jeff Jarvis (00:53:30):
Obligated

Ant Pruitt (00:53:31):
For some reason. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:53:32):
Obligated. So the majority of the stock market says, yeah, right. That'll never happen. I mean, that's a significant, low in fact, the 52 week high was 73 bucks. But in the last six months, Twitter's never gone above $51. So 51 70 on April 25th. So it never did get to 52 40. So the market's never shown any confidence that Elon's gonna actually get it. I don't know. I think he might, might he's you

Jeff Jarvis (00:54:06):
Know, I hope not. God, I hope not

Leo Laporte (00:54:08):
Really. Do you think it'll do you think so? What can he do? I mean, people who use Twitter will still use it won't they

Jeff Jarvis (00:54:16):
Depends. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:54:18):
I mean, it's

Stacey Higginbotham (00:54:18):
Not gonna be to a certain extent. I mean, if enough people get on there and start behaving like jerks and the people you don't like, I mean, basically it's like, oh, you'll go as long as it's fun. And then if it stops being fun or interesting because those people have left you

Leo Laporte (00:54:33):
Leave. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (00:54:36):
Well, a good to the site for this all hands considering his home. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:54:40):
I don't know

Ant Pruitt (00:54:41):
Message to his staff about bringing their behind to the office. Will he?

Leo Laporte (00:54:45):
Yeah. Well, that's a

Ant Pruitt (00:54:45):
Good question in person for this. No, I don't think so. He's gonna do it

Leo Laporte (00:54:48):
Virtually. That's a good, that's a really good question.

Ant Pruitt (00:54:52):
Imagine a troll and he'd get,

Leo Laporte (00:54:54):
Well, we, I, you know, I can promise you hours <affirmative> hours afterwards there'll be recordings and stuff, you know? Oh yeah.

Ant Pruitt (00:55:01):
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:55:02):
So I think it'll be very interesting to see what he says

Jeff Jarvis (00:55:08):
He's so I try to be a good citizen on Twitter and, and, and when I get new followers and it's, it's Jane 4 7, 3, 6, 7, 2, looking for a mate.

Leo Laporte (00:55:16):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (00:55:16):
I reported a spam, right? Yeah. And on the web app, it's easy to do. And I figured it's not a good citizen. They make you go through five steps too. But I do it now on the mobile app. Oh my God. It's nearly impossible.

Ant Pruitt (00:55:27):
It's pain,

Jeff Jarvis (00:55:28):
Bro. What do you know? What's your problem with this?

Ant Pruitt (00:55:32):
Oh, it is okay. Pain. It's I mean, I get that, that they're saying, look, we we're doing our best to moderate this, this isn't very easy. So bear with this, if you will. But it still shouldn't be that meaning clicks to report something that is clearly like pornographic or clearly yeah. Racist or, or harassment towards me, the individual that's reporting it, you know, but it's,

Jeff Jarvis (00:55:59):
You're trying to help Twitter aunt, when

Ant Pruitt (00:56:00):
You trying to help clean the part, be a good, good guy, you know?

Jeff Jarvis (00:56:04):
Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (00:56:10):
You there, Mr. Leport what?

Leo Laporte (00:56:11):
Oh, sorry. <Laugh> oh, I was like, all

Stacey Higginbotham (00:56:13):
Of a sudden everybody got

Leo Laporte (00:56:14):
Quiet. I was reading Twitter. I was reading Twitter. Elon also says this September, they're gonna show off the first model of their new robot. I find that hard to believe this is the robot last August at AI days. That was actually a person in a robot costume dancing. And remember that,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:56:34):
Oh, this is the, yeah, this is the Twitter RO okay. I mean the, the

Leo Laporte (00:56:38):
Tesla robot,

Stacey Higginbotham (00:56:38):
Tesla robot, Tesla robot

Leo Laporte (00:56:40):
Te <laugh>. I love the verges headline says Elon Musk says Tesla's fake robot might be ready by September. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (00:56:49):
Well

Leo Laporte (00:56:50):
Done. Nice. S Tesla's also planning a layoff about 10% of its workforce, but that he's not alone in that that seems to be, there's

Ant Pruitt (00:57:01):
Been a lot of tech everywhere used having that in the last week or

Leo Laporte (00:57:04):
So. Yeah. As well.

Ant Pruitt (00:57:06):
There's a lot of those crypto places too. Like I wanna say Coinbase was

Leo Laporte (00:57:10):
Another one. Coinbase laid off 1100 employees by here's how you found out your email stopped working <laugh> oh

Ant Pruitt (00:57:17):
Man.

Leo Laporte (00:57:18):
Oh yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (00:57:20):
If you are affected, you will get email your personal email address your

Leo Laporte (00:57:23):
Because your personal address have

Jeff Jarvis (00:57:24):
Email.

Leo Laporte (00:57:25):
Yeah. Your personal address that that's gotta work out well. Yeah. well, you know, this is an, this is really in our Bailey w but, but I think it's an interesting question. Why are tech stocks doing so poorly now? And six months ago they were the golden stocks, right?

Stacey Higginbotham (00:57:45):
Well, you could be worried about the FTC getting kind of in Congress kind of. Well, I also, you know, if everything's gonna, if, if you've had your rose colored glasses on and you thought everything was going up and up, and you recognize that this was probably not like a fundamental thing, it was kind of like a hype thing. Yeah. When the hype

Leo Laporte (00:58:06):
Everything's getting sold off, every everything goes. Yeah, no, that's a good point. I

Jeff Jarvis (00:58:09):
Think it's the, the, the COVID dividend to those stocks is devalued. I think the whole market is devalued we're in bear land because of, of inflation and stuff. And so my broker the, you know, I talked to him like once a year had to do something and I asked him and, and he said, any stock that has a high PE and, and low profit is gonna get hit hard right

Leo Laporte (00:58:34):
Now. Cause reality sitting in. Yeah, exactly. Mm-Hmm

Stacey Higginbotham (00:58:37):
<Affirmative> yeah. That's, it's not rocket science.

Leo Laporte (00:58:39):
Right? Okay.

Jeff Jarvis (00:58:40):
No, exactly. You're gonna go to blue chips. You're gonna go to safe harbors. And, and so the tech stocks were, were flying high, but I, I think, you know, to my mind, Amazon and Google are still good companies, Twitter. We don't know what the heck's gonna happen. Facebook. I just met it. I don't know. 

Leo Laporte (00:58:56):
I'm just glad I put all my money into Bitcoin before it was too late.

Jeff Jarvis (00:58:59):
Yeah. And then lost the best

Ant Pruitt (00:59:00):
One. <Laugh> yeah. And you know where those Bitcoin are right

Leo Laporte (00:59:03):
Now? Yeah. $22,000. <Laugh> look at that graph. There is a graph. Oh fuck. That's the one month graph.

Ant Pruitt (00:59:11):
I saw something from Dan Patterson this morning where he mentions it's like down 70% in the last eight months.

Leo Laporte (00:59:19):
That 25% in the last week crypto crypto market. Anyway. Yeah. It was just 70% in the last eight months. Yeah. Can you believe it? Unbelievable. Yeah. Here is Jack Dorsey's presentation for web five, you know, web two plus web three equals web five. The next web, when I heard about this, I thought, oh, you're joking. Right? This is a joke. I don't think it is.

Jeff Jarvis (00:59:46):
No, it's not joking. I, I tweeted and he answered. I said, what is the relationship of this to blue sky? And he answered the blue sky can be built on top of this.

Leo Laporte (00:59:54):
Yeah. Cuz tagline web five is the decentralized web platform. Of course blue sky is decentralized Twitter. So

Stacey Higginbotham (01:00:02):
I should go look at this. I have

Leo Laporte (01:00:04):
Not seen this. It is on I put,

Jeff Jarvis (01:00:06):
I put it up there cause I wanted to hear what you guys thought of this and, and, and any BS detection you have. Well that's, that's not even not fair. What, what interests you cuz I can't fully figure it out. It's about iden it's about distributed identity and there's some slides here about confirming identity.

Leo Laporte (01:00:22):
Well, that would be line in 25. Boham but gig. But,

Jeff Jarvis (01:00:34):
And, but HaBO. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:00:36):
I, I go for the gigabyte personally.

Leo Laporte (01:00:39):
Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:00:39):
If you wanna go Hagen, Bott,

Jeff Jarvis (01:00:41):
Have you called hiab Bott a hundred times before?

Stacey Higginbotham (01:00:45):
No, but when I was in school, they called me HIIN butt. I was,

Leo Laporte (01:00:49):
Oh, that's the difference? Huge

Stacey Higginbotham (01:00:51):
Hagen bottom.

Leo Laporte (01:00:52):
That's the difference between then and now, right? <Laugh> we're now you are a five, not a, but we're we're gonna talk web five. That's what we're gonna talk, evolving the web. Okay. Today in the current web model, his presentation says people are users who do not own their own data or identity, right? They're given accounts by companies and their data is held captive in app silos. That's clearly,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:01:16):
Oh, this isn't gonna

Leo Laporte (01:01:16):
Work. That's a problem. The web, we want to create a new class of decentralized apps and protocols that put individuals at the center. We must empower them with self owned identity and restore control over the data. You know, I mean, this is, everybody's saying this Tim burner, Lee who invented the worldwide for some time, web is saying so,

Jeff Jarvis (01:01:35):
But is he gonna build it

Leo Laporte (01:01:36):
Somebody? Well, that's the question is you

Stacey Higginbotham (01:01:37):
Can't build it. So you can't. The problem is people are stupid and lazy and we don't wanna actually have the technical capabilities to do and manage our own identity in a way that can be multi-factored across lots of places. Nobody wants to make a service. Doesn't wanna make it. They don't wanna make it easy for us because they can monetize and trap us by using the centralized identity as a way to, to track, like to offer services and to track us and all that. So this is, this is basically like, oh, give me some sort of philosophy about like work and people and rights. I mean, I don't, I don't know. I'm

Jeff Jarvis (01:02:17):
Add Jack to the rescue

Leo Laporte (01:02:18):
It's socialism. Is that what you're saying? Stacy HIIN

Stacey Higginbotham (01:02:21):
No, it's more like a tragedy of the,

Leo Laporte (01:02:24):
It's not a tragedy

Stacey Higginbotham (01:02:24):
Of the commons. It's like, it's like basically like people want to get value for nothing and companies want to extract all the value they can for people. There's not really a medium ground, right? There's no reason for them to make it easy for us. Right.

Leo Laporte (01:02:39):
And in fact, I would imagine companies would see this as a great opportunity because as, as you pointed out, if you have a unique identifier with all your data in it, oh, companies could say, Hey, great. That makes it a lot easier for us. Thank you. Just, just you would think that,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:02:55):
Think how, like we, we built the web, which was perfect for things like this in a lot of ways. Like you look at like things like domain registries and URLs. I mean that made it easy to get places on the web. And, and it was a fairly accessible system for many people. It's not accessible for everyone. Think about like how well that worked. But then we all wanted to create these walled gardens. I mean, it's like, whatever that forever tension is called

Leo Laporte (01:03:22):
This

Jeff Jarvis (01:03:23):
Look slide nine.

Leo Laporte (01:03:25):
Yeah, I have it up right now. This is I think this is blue sky. I think this is kind of what blue sky is saying. And blue sky might be a Twitter implementation of this mm-hmm <affirmative> concept, but this is what I think he wants to do this decentralized. And a lot of people have thought a lot about this. Somebody's obviously put a lot of thought into this, but until there is a proof of concept application, I'm not, you know, where's, it's

Jeff Jarvis (01:03:53):
Still you, you're looking at trust and identity. You need a trusted view of identity. Right. And without a centralized authority for that, cuz that would be,

Leo Laporte (01:04:01):
Yeah, well we have that. It's called public key crypto. PKI does it for a lot of things. So we, we kind of have that kind of thing.

Jeff Jarvis (01:04:12):
Stacey's point major pain in the butt.

Leo Laporte (01:04:16):
Yeah. And even more like, well what's the incentive talk to companies. Why would Amazon Facebook or, or Google do this? I mean, they're gonna say yeah, sure. Go ahead. Fine. Yeah. And if you wanna visit us, you're gonna handle over your it so we know who you are. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>

Stacey Higginbotham (01:04:34):
Right. Do you? Okay, so this is kind of silly, but looking at this presentation, I want to where should I put a file? A friend of mine wrote this and this, this presentation just brings it all home. 

Leo Laporte (01:04:49):
Put in the chat on the Google doc

Stacey Higginbotham (01:04:53):
Chat on the Google doc. Oh no. I just started to meet, hold on. Wrong button.

Leo Laporte (01:04:57):
<Laugh> <laugh> don't worry soon. That's gonna be a duo.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:05:02):
All right. So episode, where does it, where does it go on the top? No, on the bottle here. Oh, I just stuck it. No undo. I can't work. The internet

Jeff Jarvis (01:05:15):
Said yeah, but work on internet long Stacy,

Leo Laporte (01:05:17):
Put it, put it in the IRC or

Stacey Higginbotham (01:05:19):
I'm gonna put it put in line, put

Leo Laporte (01:05:21):
It in 28,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:05:24):
Lined 46. You'll

Leo Laporte (01:05:25):
Have stuck it. Huge guys. This technology stuff is hard. <Laugh>

Stacey Higginbotham (01:05:31):
Stas. Like,

Leo Laporte (01:05:31):
Ah, really know how it works, but go ahead. Let's just weigh in on Jack's web five.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:05:37):
<Laugh> so exactly. So

Leo Laporte (01:05:42):
46

Stacey Higginbotham (01:05:42):
Is where it is. Okay. But my friend who works at an analyst firm, he, he wrote about what he calls the developer aesthetic, which is exactly this it's like hexagons. It's got the font for it's basically like trying to appeal. Oh yeah. So, and I like, so when I saw this, I was like, oh my God, it's the developer aesthetic.

Leo Laporte (01:06:02):
Yeah. Until there's code. Totally. And I maybe there is code. I'm not saying there isn't but you know, it's hard to judge. Yeah. This is a nice slideshow, but it's hard to judge it until there's code. Right.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:06:13):
It is. I mean, well in just the, it feels like the tech people, they come at it and they're like, I have this beautiful vision. And then they, they come out and they program it and they come up with like protocols and a way to make it happen. And then the business people look at that and they say, how can I make that make money? Right. Right. And the tech people, you would think they would figure out that that's what happens every time. But it's like, they don't. And then when the business people come in and start making money, the tech people either do one of two things. They jump in and they're like, they sell out and they sell out in the most like just mark Zuckerberg in way where they're just like continuously making unethical decisions and just, you know, getting away with it and apologizing later if they have to, or they just like leave completely and become like weird people who live in basements and rail from, you know, from like chats about selling out

Leo Laporte (01:07:13):
Just on the I'm I'm looking at this slide show. I mean, he is really kind of just describing PKI. I oh I, you know, P

Stacey Higginbotham (01:07:21):
Or I saw like 20 of these back in like 20, yeah. 20 2008, 2010. So many like, especially with the rise of like the beginning of the IOT, cuz everybody's like, oh, you'll carry all your data and your data, like your data profile will talk to the devices and tell you what you, you like and what you don't like. And

Leo Laporte (01:07:39):
Yeah. It's

Jeff Jarvis (01:07:39):
Still the internet we want though.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:07:41):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:07:42):
Is there any path to it?

Stacey Higginbotham (01:07:44):
Not until it makes everybody some money, but we're not gonna pay for

Leo Laporte (01:07:48):
It. Me. It's not, I don't. So here's the problem. And this is the problem. In fact, I thought Jack Dorsey was one of the people who really got that. This was the problem, which is web three. Maybe he does. And that's why he is proposing web five web three looks like it's democratic. It's really controlled by a few companies. Nfts, PCs look like they're <laugh> they look likes exactly it. Yeah. Pcs. They look like they're democratic, but it's but it's, it's not an open sea. It doesn't exist. So it's one of those, you know, I mean the web looks like it's democratic, except if it's not on Google, it doesn't exist. So there are gatekeepers in all of these things. And I, I think that that's, I don't know. I, I feel like that's gonna be a tough one to get around.

Ant Pruitt (01:08:26):
It sounds a lot like today's episode of floss weekly

Leo Laporte (01:08:29):
With, do they talk about this stuff?

Ant Pruitt (01:08:31):
Yeah. Mr. Sam Kern talked a lot about DDS and yeah. PCO and all of this stuff with identification, the decentralized identification. So yeah. Check that out. Y'all

Leo Laporte (01:08:44):
It's it's kind of

Ant Pruitt (01:08:44):
Episode 6 85 today.

Leo Laporte (01:08:46):
Yeah. I mean, it's a soft thing, but I don't know how it gets implemented globally is a, is the next internet. These things don't happen kind of that way. They, they happen much more.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:08:56):
Yeah. You need like an I

Leo Laporte (01:08:58):
Standard

Stacey Higginbotham (01:08:58):
Or something

Leo Laporte (01:08:59):
Even then.

Ant Pruitt (01:08:59):
How do you get regular people to understand this stuff? That's that's a challenge, right? How do you get them to understand this stuff and get them to want to buy in and make all the, all of the

Leo Laporte (01:09:10):
Additional think regular people now understand they want privacy, but mm-hmm <affirmative> I

Stacey Higginbotham (01:09:16):
Don't think they do. I think when you tell they want

Leo Laporte (01:09:18):
Convenience,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:09:19):
I give you privacy. Yeah. I was like, if I tell you, I will give you privacy, but I won't be able to give you Google maps because of that. They're like, sorry. They're like, heck no, won't

Leo Laporte (01:09:28):
Google maps. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think you're right. She's

Ant Pruitt (01:09:31):
Like I'm out.

Jeff Jarvis (01:09:32):
Even in Germany. You're right. You're

Leo Laporte (01:09:34):
Right. Yeah. Convenience ultimately is all we care.

Jeff Jarvis (01:09:37):
Well, so back to Stacy's point, can you, if you're an entrepreneur, can you see in Jack's map a way to build a <affirmative> that survives on its own using this structure and starts to, to draw capital in so people can make money doing that. So then, then, and I'm saying it's not the average person, it's the person who builds this into a usable service of some sort blue sky, Twitter, whatever, and say, yeah, I like that.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:10:08):
No, because nobody wants to be in the picks and shovels. They wanna be in like the Wald garden. They want the highest profit margins. They don't wanna build like the PA like, remember how Intel funded all these companies to help drive the adoption of their chips. Most people don't have the Intel mentality. They have the telco mentality, which is like, these are my pipes and you're gonna pay dearly to use it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so you have to decide if you're what and VCs always want that other model.

Jeff Jarvis (01:10:36):
So here's another theory just playing here. Jack's web five is regulation proof in a sense that it's distributed. That's not proof. I don't quite mean what I'm saying, but, but it, but it's no longer, the big company is the big target. The big place where we, everything is controlled and we, and we resent that things are happening in a thousand places, was into places and it'll confuse the hell out of regulators for a long time and they won't know how to do it. And so you have another permissionless environment to work. It, just play it here.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:11:17):
I personally think permissionless environments in today's society. That again, I'm gonna go with like end stages or the, the most money grabbing stage of capitalism is probably a bad thing for users. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:11:33):
As soon as I said it, I knew you were <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative>

Stacey Higginbotham (01:11:35):
You're oh yeah. Here,

Jeff Jarvis (01:11:37):
Social friend. I know where this is gonna go. Yeah, no,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:11:39):
Sorry. I, I, I really well

Jeff Jarvis (01:11:41):
You're right. You're right. I disagree. Yeah. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:11:46):
I wanted to be a business reporter actually, 22 years ago when I started, I was really excited. But now no,

Leo Laporte (01:11:54):
I don't see the incentive. Yeah. For any business to adopt this. Right. I see why users might want to, although I think it's way too complicated. Look, we can't even get rid of S complicated. We're trying to get rid of passwords and we can't even get that done. Nope. I, I, you know,

Jeff Jarvis (01:12:09):
Yeah. But Leo I, so I was writing about this recently when I was at Delphi internet for the horrible month. And they came in and showed me and others, the Netscape browser and the, the nerds got it immediately and said, oh hell, here we are trying to make a gooey for a closed network. And that's dead. They all got it immediately. The, the, the, the, the media executives there so knows is way too complicated nobody's ever gonna do this. What's this HTT, what, what what's that? No, no one's ever gonna do this. They're gonna stay on AOL forever. And of course they were wrong because people did develop the web to make it usable. So mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, can you imagine, but we gave up, can I imagine this being usable? Yes.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:12:52):
So, so they gave that up though, when they, we had a brief moment of like unity around like HTML and links and all kinds of things. And then we were like, crap, we have to make money. Advertising is the way. And then we started getting, you know, cookies

Jeff Jarvis (01:13:12):
Like bait and,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:13:14):
And you know, all the things that the, the advertising. So again, I'm saying the tech people have within them to make something that solves the problem that they see. But if you don't say that, the problem that you see is that eventually all of this gets corrupted by the need to make gobs of money like profit, you know, VC money, profits, VC money, then you're not actually solving the whole problem. You're just solving a little bit of the problem.

Jeff Jarvis (01:13:41):
Let me ask each of you, what's the problem you see with the web today? Mm.

Leo Laporte (01:13:50):
I think the problem I see in the web is it's siloed and it's controlled by a number of big companies. The web is a great idea. The, the, the distributed web is such a brilliant and clean and simple idea, but unfortunately you know, it's become siloed, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> and so there's Twitter, there's Facebook, there's Google you know, there's Amazon. And did you see John Oliver's piece on Sunday on big tech? No, I no

Jeff Jarvis (01:14:18):
Chance to yet.

Ant Pruitt (01:14:19):
No,

Leo Laporte (01:14:20):
That was interesting.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:14:21):
I would say it's data extraction without any sort of governance or not even regulation, ethics, I wish you say.

Leo Laporte (01:14:28):
Right.

Ant Pruitt (01:14:29):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Yep. And

Stacey Higginbotham (01:14:31):
That would, that would be my biggest issue with it, cuz I, I do. I agree with you, Leo. It is wonderful. And I don't thinks being siloed is the worst part about it. I think it's the fact that people don't understand what all they're giving away when they

Leo Laporte (01:14:42):
Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. Cause it, it isn't really siloed. You can have Twitter and massed on and, and Facebook and you know, you can move around. You're not stuck in one spot. It's a shame. It would be nice if information would flow a little more freely through these mm-hmm <affirmative> walls, but, you know

Ant Pruitt (01:14:59):
Well, see that's, that's what I feel is, is an advantage and disadvantage of it is just how free things can be, where you can be anonymous or you can be, you know, who you are, actual show who you are out there. But at the same time being anonymous could be quite problematic at times for certain people or being anonymous could be an advantage for certain people depending on the, the situation. So I it's, I, I, I love, I love being able to have the internet and share information, but sometimes it's too much bad information that's getting shared that ends up being the, the gospel. And it shouldn't have been

Leo Laporte (01:15:39):
Like on the bound balance though. I agree with you, Jeff, that the internet is unbalanced very positive and still and remain. So mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah,

Jeff Jarvis (01:15:45):
It is. I think, I think a problem if I'm gonna play my own game, cause I didn't have an answer when I asked it. I, I think my answer would be the attention based economy, which is a, which is a product of media importing into the net, which leads to click bait and data and everything. It's not a value based economy and selling your attention cause they're not selling your data, they're selling your attention and, and to do that

Ant Pruitt (01:16:11):
Good point, they

Jeff Jarvis (01:16:11):
Trick you and they grab your data and they have horrible experiences and they silo.

Leo Laporte (01:16:19):
Is it possible though that the, that the net is self-healing in that regard that, you know, like Adam Smith's invisible hand, you know, fixes markets

Stacey Higginbotham (01:16:28):
Wait, wait, but we already know that the invisible hand has not worked out well

Leo Laporte (01:16:32):
Because

Stacey Higginbotham (01:16:33):
No, it hasn't because of re like regulatory capture, the governments have turned into a weak enforcer of the invisible hand. Right. 

Leo Laporte (01:16:41):
Right. The, his theory was that if you act in your own, self-interest magically, everything works out. But I think that in the, on the web anyway things like, you know, this attention driven, influencer driven, click bait driven thing. I think that goes away after a while. Cuz people get tired of it. It's it's more, I think the web, the internet in general is more is like life it's, it, it ebbs and flows. It comes and goes and when bad things happen, they, you know, they ha they will happen. And then they will, they will go away. And, and and I think it's gonna be more and more like the ebb and flow of life itself, cuz it, it really is. Isn't it? I mean, it's, it's, it's not separate from how the world is in any way and as it becomes less, so it becomes more like the world. Is that not true?

Stacey Higginbotham (01:17:32):
I don't know if I've seen this ebb and flow quite as much, but

Leo Laporte (01:17:36):
Well, we're, we're, we're

Jeff Jarvis (01:17:38):
Younger Stacy

Leo Laporte (01:17:38):
We're fish in the middle of it.

Jeff Jarvis (01:17:40):
We've been, we've been ebbing and flowing a lot longer than you

Leo Laporte (01:17:42):
Have, but we, you know, we can't see it. It's it's on a larger scale than we're aware of, but it, but it happens. I think it does happen.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:17:52):
I've been around for the whole of the internet. <Laugh> Jeff.

Jeff Jarvis (01:17:56):
Well, here's

Leo Laporte (01:17:57):
You wouldn't say that it's going in one direction in one direction only and that's, that's all that's gonna happen. We don't know what's gonna happen.

Jeff Jarvis (01:18:05):
So let, let me give you an example. Go ahead, Stacy. Sorry.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:18:07):
Oh, no, go on.

Jeff Jarvis (01:18:09):
No, no, you go then I'll go.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:18:11):
No, no, you go <laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (01:18:14):
That? I feel like I'm guilty. Geez.

Ant Pruitt (01:18:16):
I will say you were talking about the whole click baby attention thing. As a content creator, I believe we are all guilty of it to an extent, because there are moments where we have to be able to, to get attention, to say, Hey, check out this piece of art.

Leo Laporte (01:18:33):
You gotta sell yourself.

Ant Pruitt (01:18:34):
Yeah. Right. You know, so that there, but there is a line, you know, I shouldn't create episode 1 30, 1 of hands on photography. That's all about frequency, frequency, separation and say, Hey, check out this beautiful model that I'm working with today as the title, you know, that that's just wrong.

Leo Laporte (01:18:54):
You know, the Internet's made of people. It's unreasonable to expect people. Yes. To

Jeff Jarvis (01:18:57):
Just like Lambda

Leo Laporte (01:18:58):
To be nice all the time. Or maybe

Stacey Higginbotham (01:19:01):
I was gonna say the same thing. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:19:03):
So, so, but it, but just like people, it comes and goes and there's good and there's bad. And and I don't think that it's yeah, we all do some marketing. And then, you know, some people think that the way they can market themselves is to add more value as opposed to trick you into reading the article. But there's gonna be both kinds and neither one's gonna go away. It's people, it's just the way people are. And I hope, let me ask you, people are, you know, I admit people like junk food and just like, they like junk food. They like junk content. I guess, you know what, Jeff, you'd be an expert on this because that's the, this is what people were saying about television,

Jeff Jarvis (01:19:44):
About people magazine. Yes I,

Leo Laporte (01:19:46):
No, but this, this is what people said about television that the in inevitably television would, would pander to the lowest common denominator. It's what

Jeff Jarvis (01:19:53):
They said about fiction.

Ant Pruitt (01:19:54):
Is this safe to say that about TikTok as well? Yeah. Cause just granted there's a lot of ridiculously talent out there in the TikTok space, but man, there's I get so many random text messages of a TikTok clip that I'm like, why is this, why does this have so many millions of views? And it makes no sense whatsoever. Just some something mindless of someone getting kicked in the notes.

Leo Laporte (01:20:19):
So all media, all media does this, right? Jeff, anytime media has to live by the size of its audience. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I mean, I mean, if you're producing opera,

Jeff Jarvis (01:20:28):
That's the attention based marketplace. Yes. Right. Mass media is what's wrong.

Leo Laporte (01:20:32):
Right. But is it wrong? I mean, is it inevitably wrong other

Jeff Jarvis (01:20:36):
Because the idea of the mass is itself

Leo Laporte (01:20:38):
To the people. Did TV become a complete another wasteland? I would submit no. What?

Jeff Jarvis (01:20:42):
No. Well, once it moved past I mean the golden TV was BS. It was not golden age. It was chunk in the early

Leo Laporte (01:20:50):
Days. I think TV's better now than it was then. So it

Jeff Jarvis (01:20:53):
Is not broadcast TV broadcast. TV's gone down to the but we have

Leo Laporte (01:20:59):
Well, but that's the point we have success. So that's my point. I guess that's what I'm saying. Is that

Jeff Jarvis (01:21:04):
More choice yielded

Leo Laporte (01:21:05):
If you follow a single tributary. Yes. But the ultimate river of life, the whole, the whole yes. I agree. Absolutely agree is is, is not gonna go in one bad direction. In fact, it may go in one positive direction in the long run because people are gonna ultimately want value in the long run better.

Jeff Jarvis (01:21:22):
Yeah. So let me ask this question to Stacy, cuz I, I want you comparing your perspective to your daughter. When I taught the class this last term and redesigning the internet with Doug Rushkoff I realized seven eights the way through the term. So too late that I was expecting the students to compare and contrast, you know, kind of dreams for the internet, but they all came on the internet after it was already all walled gardens. They weren't there at the beginning of blogs, right. They weren't there at the beginning of, of these things. And so they accepted the internet as it is today. And it was hard for them to dream of an internet. So yes, dates, Stacy, you have been on since the beginning of the internet and you've seen all that and your daughter only knows an internet of the last 10 years. And do you think she sees a very different internet and its possibilities than you do?

Stacey Higginbotham (01:22:13):
Yes. And she treats it differently because of that.

Jeff Jarvis (01:22:19):
<Affirmative>

Stacey Higginbotham (01:22:19):
She treats it much. Cynically is probably, but she treats it as what it is. She doesn't have any idealized version of the internet of free people, sharing ideas and making the world a better place. She just sees it as a place of commerce. Well that hurts also.

Ant Pruitt (01:22:35):
Interesting.

Leo Laporte (01:22:35):
Wait, wait. Oh yeah. Oh wait. You've said before she doesn't watch TV, does she get content from the internet?

Stacey Higginbotham (01:22:41):
She gets content from the internet. She's actually currently wearing some YouTube merch.

Leo Laporte (01:22:45):
Yeah. So there is value. There's some valuable stuff on there. It's not a wasteland of merchandising.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:22:50):
Yeah. So it's not a, and I, and I don't mean of it as like this, but for her, it is, it is like how probably I viewed television, which is, it's an established thing. It has an established business model and you can expect certain, you can expect it to behave in certain ways. 

Leo Laporte (01:23:07):
But it's not all bad. It gets my point. Right,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:23:10):
Right, right. No, she doesn't think it's all bad, but she is no, I, she has no illusions illusions about it being this for like when I've bring up things like, oh, well, you know, before Twitter, you know the, before Twitter, sorry. Twitter, for example, she's like, she thinks my obsession with Twitter is really weird.

Leo Laporte (01:23:33):
She's right. By the way. But okay. She

Stacey Higginbotham (01:23:35):
<Laugh>, she may not be she's like, why do you talk to these people? What, what does she

Leo Laporte (01:23:40):
Give you? She, she doesn't have the illusion that some of us old timers have that the internet was gonna change the world and all that. It's just a thing for her. No, just like, she's just part of life. It's just part of life and there's good stuff in there as well as bad. She's well aware of all the crap, but there's also, obviously that's where she's getting content from. There's good stuff there too. Yes.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:24:00):
Yeah. Yeah. But she's also aware that there is stuff there that you could not like find in other places, like, again, the rule of like you cannot unsee something. We have been hammering that in since she was like two or three, simply because there are no guardrails on the internet.

Leo Laporte (01:24:16):
Well, I would submit that that's true in the world. The difference is that you have been able to live in a walled garden at a physical space where it's there isn't war there isn't famine. There isn't poverty. You could, you could argue, she's gonna go around the corner. You have privilege. Yeah. So she's not gonna go around the corner and see something. She can unsee the Internet's bringing the whole world into her privileged space. So yeah, just

Stacey Higginbotham (01:24:45):
Like, and that's both a positive and a negative, right. Because if you, you look at something, you

Leo Laporte (01:24:49):
Know, she's outta the nest though, and you're right at a certain age, you, you know, under a certain age, you wanna keep her away from that. But that's the world. And her little list of privilege,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:25:01):
You could see it in ways. Like I remember the first time I read Tony Morrison's beloved in high school, it was an assigned book for us. And I read that thing and oh my God, like that was my induct introduction to like the actual evils of slavery. Yeah. Having been taught in Texas schools, that it was an economic rights issue. I was like, wait, Uhuh does not compute Uhuh. And that, that brought me to a place of questioning. And that was an example of my, my privilege being like the privilege of ignoring all the bad things that have happened to the world that, that showed that to me. So I think,

Leo Laporte (01:25:38):
And that's a good thing,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:25:39):
Right? That's a better way perhaps to be introduced to something like that than maybe some of the, actually, I, I don't know if that's true, you know, I was like some of the nicer things on Twitter or TikTok maybe is a better

Leo Laporte (01:25:53):
Or etic. You know, what Lambda

Stacey Higginbotham (01:25:56):
Telling you what you wanna know about bottom of the, she

Leo Laporte (01:25:58):
About the Holocaust? Does she watch TV news? No, probably not. I hope not. Okay. Except that there's things happening in Aldi, Texas, that is real. That's not made up. That's important, but she's sheltered from it. And I think that you cannot castigate the source of that information saying you see there's bad stuff because that's not, that's the real stuff.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:26:24):
So, but I would want her not to see the pictures of dead children.

Leo Laporte (01:26:27):
Well, I don't wanna see 'em either 15, but maybe, maybe we need to,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:26:31):
Maybe you and I need to, I don't know. Like I

Leo Laporte (01:26:35):
Grew up with, she's a child mom on the TV, she's a child. So you're right. I mean, there's different things like, but, but, but, but eliminating the issue of somebody's too young for it, any adult, the internet is introducing them to the RA broad variety of things in the world, much of which is horrific, but better that than this, this nest of privilege, that isn't real. That is just, you're lucky enough to be living in.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:27:02):
But at the same time, yes. But it's also introducing people to conspiracy theories and like those same photos being weaponized in the opposite, like this could never happen. This is clearly just,

Leo Laporte (01:27:14):
Well then one, but that's right. Absurd. But that's an additional data point that you go, and there are people <laugh> in the world who think the earth is flat. I mean, that doesn't mean you're gonna fall into that hole. The less you're exposed to that, the more likely you might fall,

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:30):
You exercise your brain by being able to learn how to say, wow, that's BS. And I'm smart enough to know it because I got educated.

Leo Laporte (01:27:37):
I, I don't think the ever ignorance is ever gonna be bliss in the long or not. It is bliss, but it's not, it's not gonna be realistic or a good thing for society. So I'm just arguing that there's plenty of bad stuff, but on the I'm with, unfortunately I'm arguing Jeff's point, <laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (01:27:57):
A joint he's very much the day has come, go, keep going. Yeah,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:28:01):
I know we, we got you there, Leo,

Leo Laporte (01:28:03):
But I've always thought, see, I've always thought that, but at the same time, as I've always thought that I also think it's really important to, to be wide-eyed at, at the, you know, what's also going on with companies like Google and Facebook and Amazon and their predatory ways.

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:18):
Yeah. I have to get a lot better at at and the show has helped me do that at looking at the risks and grappling with the risks and, and, and, and arguing that the mistake of the early internet was, was built without guard rails, because it was too optimistic and it didn't see where the risks were. But too many guardrails is full on us too

Leo Laporte (01:28:39):
Well. And I think now it's gone beyond that conversation. It's it's the world, right. It's, what's out there and and it's in all of its, well,

Jeff Jarvis (01:28:48):
It's amplified in certain bad quarter.

Leo Laporte (01:28:50):
Yeah. Yeah. Other good quarters, you know, I mean, I, I don't, I think watching television news is a horrific, horrible, terrible, no good, very bad idea for adults as well as kids.

Jeff Jarvis (01:29:00):
Well, here's an interesting

Leo Laporte (01:29:01):
Stat, but how are you gonna get the news otherwise? Right. How are you gonna

Jeff Jarvis (01:29:04):
Re's Institute for the study of journalism just came out with this annual report, which is very good. It's down in, in, in my numbers, but it's too wonky for that. But it said that 19% Ofer, I could I'm wrong on this. I've asked them. Cause it was, it was not clear what it was, but 19% of America, the subscribed to a news source,

Leo Laporte (01:29:19):
I saw that on your Twitter. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:29:21):
And then it said that paid

Leo Laporte (01:29:23):
For it. The

Jeff Jarvis (01:29:24):
Subscriber for is 27% paid for local news. Yeah. Which would, if that's the case, then that's 5% of America is paying for local news and so becomes, oh, local news is gonna save us well at that point, no, this is a tiny little niche product. Now. It's nothing

Leo Laporte (01:29:42):
It has look at when we have a, a club TWI few less than half of 1% pay club TWI, the PBS subscribers 4%. Right. That's normal participation and things like that is, is normally a small S

Jeff Jarvis (01:29:57):
Well, yeah, but what I'm saying is that if that's the only, but, but all of TWI is free except for club TWI.

Leo Laporte (01:30:03):
Oh, you're yeah. You're complaining about paywalls all is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're talking

Jeff Jarvis (01:30:06):
About paywalls. And so what is that doing to democracy?

Leo Laporte (01:30:08):
Well, that's why paywalls that preaching

Jeff Jarvis (01:30:11):
To the soloists of the choir. Yeah. Now not just the choir. Yeah. And so to your point, what, what's the world, what's the belt on Chaung that you German word of the day that you that you get, if you watch TV, local news, if you only watch K news, if you

Leo Laporte (01:30:27):
Only do that, that's getting back to, when you ask me what's wrong with the internet, that's getting back to the silos

Jeff Jarvis (01:30:31):
Silos,

Leo Laporte (01:30:31):
The, the, the free, the freer, the flow of information, the more varied, the better, I think,

Jeff Jarvis (01:30:37):
But the, but the argument of a lot of research, and then now, and this is, I've mentioned this book by Axel Bruns is the fallacy of the filter bubble. And the echo chamber is that in fact, we get bombarded with a lot more now on, on, on the internet and social. And that's what pisses off people. That's what says I don't like those people and now they're in front of my face and I'm gonna get angrier. And that, it's not that we are sheltered from things that, in fact, we're seeing more of the world to your point, Leo. And that that's what brings out people's fears and animus, because they're not ready for it. And we haven't been exposed to it in the Walter Croke

Leo Laporte (01:31:10):
World. And Stacey, as a good parent, you are not, I you're, you know, initially when they're young, maybe you're shielding their eyes, but, but more important, more valuable is helping them look at it in a way that is informing to them and helps them understand what critically they're seeing critically. Right?

Stacey Higginbotham (01:31:29):
Yes. But you have this right now. There's a fine line. I would say between doing that and really depressing the

Leo Laporte (01:31:34):
Hell out of them. I agree. Yeah. Oh yeah. So there's

Jeff Jarvis (01:31:37):
There, especially these days, especially,

Leo Laporte (01:31:39):
Well, and it's not just true for kids. It's true for all of us.

Jeff Jarvis (01:31:41):
Oh, exactly. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:31:43):
But, but you don't. So I, you know, I always have this discussion in my mind about video games or social media with young people. Yeah. If you sh, if you keep them away from it, then when they grow up and there's something exposed to it, they have had, they have no defenses against at all. Why you just say, so you gotta, some, some exposure is kind of important.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:32:03):
We don't talk about this very much, but the internet and some of the tools like Google docs or meat or things like that have actually made it very easy to collaborate on activism. Good for kids in a way that I don't, we, we really don't talk about it on this show, but you know, the types of movements, like if you look at what happened post Parkland if you look at what happens with like political activism around climate change among the youths there's a lot happening and the internet has made that much more accessible. It's been easier to find those people. It's easier to collaborate and to actually take action. Like I know my daughter signed up on some Google docs to actually call local, not law enforcement, local Congress, <laugh> the local state Congress on some legislation she felt was important, but I, it is also hard to find all the nuances around some of those things. So mm-hmm, <affirmative> like she was against a particular dam here, but we had to talk about like, well, is protecting salmon. Is it worth, you know, depriving some indigenous people up their fishing rights because in this case it would, it, yeah. Then we got into the whole world sucks and

Leo Laporte (01:33:16):
It's complicated. It's hard because there isn't an obvious, like, I guess in some, in some distant, nostalgic past, you could say, well, there's right and there's wrong. And here's the past. And it's all very straightforward, but we don't live in that kind of world anymore. And there's a lot of grays and it's hard to know. And I don't know what you tell kids, you just prepare them as best you can.

Jeff Jarvis (01:33:35):
I, I, I think that I used to say that my parents did me a disservice and it's the same disservice that I do my own children is I think protecting them from how many a-holes there are in the world. And that that's gonna be unusual when you see that out in the world and that, and that, and that no, most people are all good. And most people I think are, but how do you deal with the difficult people?

Leo Laporte (01:34:00):
Right. My mom told me it was all of you. So I was well prepared

Stacey Higginbotham (01:34:10):
Except me. Right. Cause my, my empathy modules that's set

Leo Laporte (01:34:14):
The high great <laugh> but the rest of them are horrible. <Laugh> jerks. No, I was, I was raised and it took me a while to realize this in a very kind of snobbish fashion that we are somehow better than almost everybody else.

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:29):
Was that the academ too?

Leo Laporte (01:34:31):
It's probably the academ. Yeah. It was probably my father's a professor and he is probably like, yeah, well, you know, those people are not too bright, but yeah, it was very much the case.

Jeff Jarvis (01:34:41):
Did you ever jar did, go ahead. You go ahead. You,

Ant Pruitt (01:34:44):
You, you were saying your, your parents shielded you from the jackasses of the world and you were doing pretty much have done the same, had done the same with your children. Is it because you weren't attacked this often? Or, or why was that? Because I look at my household and I've been straight up with every single person and say, Hey, this person is a jerk. This person is a jerk. This person is great. This person is awesome soul and, and so forth because of my personal experience. And I want them to, to see what it feels like on both sides of that spectrum.

Leo Laporte (01:35:19):
What

Jeff Jarvis (01:35:19):
About, I don't know, man. It's a good question. But I think, I think you also, we've talked about this before and, and, and you also had to tell your kids about risks that they would face.

Ant Pruitt (01:35:27):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:35:27):
Yeah. And I faced fewer risks because I'm

Ant Pruitt (01:35:31):
Privileged. Yeah. Yeah. Do

Stacey Higginbotham (01:35:32):
You, did you tell your kids that Jeff?

Jeff Jarvis (01:35:35):
Not enough. Not enough. Oh. 

Stacey Higginbotham (01:35:37):
Because we, we talk about that a lot.

Jeff Jarvis (01:35:39):
Yeah. Well, we wait, we did later, but, but not enough early on, I would say mm-hmm <affirmative>. I also think back, I mean, you know, there's, I I'm

Ant Pruitt (01:35:46):
The, and I'm not judging you by the way. Just, just,

Jeff Jarvis (01:35:49):
No, I know. I know

Ant Pruitt (01:35:50):
Guys, you're

Jeff Jarvis (01:35:51):
Not, you're gonna laugh. What I'm about to say, I'm actually shy, but I'm the outgoing one in my family or the rest of everybody's listen to my family. I don't bring into anything because they don't like a lot of social stuff. And I look back on my mother who was scared to death of people, as I now realize. And I didn't understand social anxiety in my parents or in, in my family now or in people around me. And I think that's an interesting problem too, is that there's reasons to be anxious about people. There's there's, there's, a-holes out there. Mm-Hmm

Leo Laporte (01:36:22):
<Affirmative> all of this is insight you gained with age. I think Jeff. Yes, absolutely. It is. Yeah, absolutely. I've noticed that for myself, one hopes that you become wise is a strong word, but you become a little smarter as you get. Should,

Jeff Jarvis (01:36:33):
Should we inherit our kids better for

Leo Laporte (01:36:34):
That? I don't, you know, when you have kids, you're young and dumb. Yeah. And you know, I think we all do the best we can not Anne. Yeah. But it's not good enough ever.

Ant Pruitt (01:36:45):
Oh boy, I screwed it up a lot. Trust

Leo Laporte (01:36:47):
Everybody. If you're, if you're honest, as a parent probably has those moments where you go, boy, I could have done that a little better. <Laugh> that was, oh yeah. That was a pleasure. That was a

Ant Pruitt (01:36:58):
Bad thing. Sometimes I feel for a little weirdo. Bless her heart.

Leo Laporte (01:37:01):
Yeah. Hey, let's take a little, I got,

Ant Pruitt (01:37:04):
I've had boys on, you know, for up teen years and now I have a little girl to help raise boy who bless her heart.

Leo Laporte (01:37:11):
Different techniques are, are required.

Ant Pruitt (01:37:14):
Clearly

Leo Laporte (01:37:15):
You can't call her a hard head for one thing. I dunno

Stacey Higginbotham (01:37:19):
About little weirdo. I'm like, oh

Leo Laporte (01:37:21):
Little weirdo. That's okay. And said with love. That's what 

Ant Pruitt (01:37:25):
That's what the

Leo Laporte (01:37:26):
Others

Stacey Higginbotham (01:37:27):
I did hear the love.

Leo Laporte (01:37:27):
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (01:37:28):
Yes I

Leo Laporte (01:37:28):
Did. It's not the words. It's what's behind the words. Our show today brought to you by H P Hewlett Packard enterprise GreenLake orchestrated by the experts at C D w yesterday's infrastructure is not gonna help you meet the demands of tomorrow's innovation. And now more than ever, you have to quickly adapt to change. The consumption oriented model of a, of the public cloud is revolutionized. How organizations think about infrastructure organizations are now demanding the speed and agility of a public cloud experience, but many workloads remain on-prem for a lot of reasons, complicated legacy applications, data sovereignty compliance are just, you know, the seriousness of migrating sensitive data. And of course it is caught right in the middle of all this, trying to satisfy the demand, the growth of their organization, struggling to manage disparate data. And of course, it's always the case. You gotta do it all at budget H P GreenLake and C D w can help.

Leo Laporte (01:38:31):
They can provide a seamless, scalable cloud experience across your entire organization that you can easily manage from anywhere, no matter where your data and applications live, OnPrem, public and private clouds, or all three trust HPE and CDW to automate your processes so that you can focus on the next big thing. CDW can help you get the most out of your unique and complex data needs by assessing your organization's needs and designing and implementing a tailored HPE GreenLake solution to modernize your business and meet your digital transformation goals. Now, once implemented CDW also provides ongoing management, freeing up your staff to focus on, on the fun stuff on innovation. Let it let lets CDW do the hard work seamless cloud experience, of course, across all your organization's apps and data. Thanks to the, as a service model, it meets you at the edge. You get scalability, instant increase in capacity when you need it.

Leo Laporte (01:39:28):
So you've got the flexibility to match your growth and meet demand. And of course, streamlined management of everything, all your data and applications with a single platform, providing simplified operations, accessibility from everywhere. And again, giving you back time to focus on innovation. CDW not only helps assess an organization's needs and build a unique HPE GreenLake solution. They also remain an active partner and provide support throughout the management process. They're there when you need 'em C D w experts also bring decades of experience designing, orchestrating, and managing strategic cloud solutions that help you unleash the full potential of your investments, giving you back time to yes, innovate and dream bigger for a seamless cloud experience. Trust HPE, and it orchestration by C D w people who get it, get it, learn more at cdw.com/h P that's, cdw.com/hpe. We thank CDW and HPE for their sport of this weekend. Google, we have, you know what? This has been such a great philosophical conversation. We haven't really covered. This is a perfect kind of twig discussion. Any of the news. Yeah. meta weirdly has hit the brakes, apparently according to wired on hardware portal, AR glasses, other hardware,

Jeff Jarvis (01:40:55):
Consumer hardware, especially portal. Portal's gonna stay for business.

Leo Laporte (01:40:59):
I wonder, you know, consumers, I mean, Microsoft's done the same thing with, with HoloLens. It's it's become an enterprise product, perhaps a great glass. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:41:09):
Microsoft's HoloLens though. The guy who led it left. Yep. And they're not sure. And big,

Leo Laporte (01:41:15):
They split up the divisions into two different divisions. You're right. The Army's not happy. 

Stacey Higginbotham (01:41:20):
Yeah. So we don't know how hollowlens is gonna go

Leo Laporte (01:41:23):
If there's a, if there's a commonality, it's that maybe the metaphors isn't all that right,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:41:30):
Man. I can't tell, you know, like I feel like forever, I've always been on the, the front edge of being excited about different tech things. So like cloud computing, IOT, and I'd be like telling people why this is a big deal and explaining it. I don't feel that way about the metaverse, but I still feel like everybody's pushing the metaverse on us. And I just, I truly don't get it. So I don't, I don't know if I'm behind or there's just not a compelling anything.

Jeff Jarvis (01:41:56):
I, I don't meta meta MFTs, I think. Well, cuz I think I'll try this, this theory out and sorry, it's another Gutenberg moment, but, but it took time for technology to become boring and then what, what people did with it became interesting. And I think there's this hunger by Silicon valley by the technologists. No, we gotta make it more interesting again, we gotta make it more interesting and I don't think that's, what's gonna be interesting. I think what's gonna be interesting is the, is the, is, is CTE's making the modern novel and maintain the essay and the guy in Strassburg the newspaper and what, what do people invent with this stuff?

Leo Laporte (01:42:28):
But remember these are corporations driven by shareholders who want to see growth. And so from their point of view, they're not thinking, oh, let's see how technology is most. Oh they,

Jeff Jarvis (01:42:40):
No I'm talking past them. Yeah. Way

Leo Laporte (01:42:42):
Past. Oh, I agree. Because all they, their only job is what's the next big thing and how can we make sure we're there? And they, of course are faced with the innovators, dilemmas historically hard for incumbents to get the next big thing, apple, 52% of its revenue comes from the iPhone. How do you find something better than that? You know? How do you meet the and the, well, I'm

Jeff Jarvis (01:43:03):
Not, I don't care about

Leo Laporte (01:43:04):
Those companies. Oh no, no. I'm saying that, but that's but that's why the tech is doing what it's doing is they're not thinking about some broader cultural, they're not saying where's our S

Jeff Jarvis (01:43:16):
But, but Jack's trying to, Jack's trying to go back and recapture something that was before in terms of the ability.

Leo Laporte (01:43:22):
Well, and that ain't gonna happen either. Right?

Jeff Jarvis (01:43:25):
I don't know. I don't know. I mean,

Leo Laporte (01:43:27):
And then as far as you,

Jeff Jarvis (01:43:29):
It's not the end,

Leo Laporte (01:43:30):
As far as you go, Stacy, I agree with you. This is always, this is the tech reporter's dilemma is what I'm seeing really all that. Or is it just more BS when Charlie rose, when, when Jeff Bezos 10 years ago opens the door and says, see, Amazon's gonna be doing drones. And Charlie rose goes <laugh> wow. That's amazing. At the time we all mocked him, we all said, oh Charlie, you fell for it. And yet this week, Amazon is starting drone deliveries in a bunch more cities. It took 'em a longer time than they thought it would.

Ant Pruitt (01:44:06):
Yeah. It's been a little while. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:44:07):
It's just, are you, are we still skeptical about it though? Or are we now saying, well, maybe they were right. Maybe Charlie wasn't so wrong. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:44:13):
Drone, drone delivery has a place, but I felt like we could see that.

Leo Laporte (01:44:18):
I don't know. A lot of us made fun of Charlie rose. Like, you know, Jeff, Jeff pulled the wool over your eyes and maybe, and maybe, actually that he did, we did. Cuz that was a long time ago.

Ant Pruitt (01:44:28):
I just don't like that. I mean it's, it seems like it was sold as something mainstream

Leo Laporte (01:44:32):
Ish. Yeah. Like SU like within it's just like Elon saying, you know, next year you won't ever it's a

Stacey Higginbotham (01:44:37):
Robot. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:44:38):
Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:44:39):
But like what miss Stacy said is, is yeah, there is a place for drone delivery, but I didn't like how it seems like if I go to order a pair of sneakers or new tripod that I ordered today, I should be able to get this in the same day. If I hit delivered by a drone, that's not possible everywhere. That's only in certain areas and it's not for everything. You know, a drone can't carry everything you order.

Leo Laporte (01:45:02):
Well, it's in Lockford California. <Laugh> no, I don't even know where, where Lockford the company announced Amazon announced is gonna launch its inaugural drone delivery service in the town of Lockford California later this year after it receives the green light from the FAA, obviously can't do it. Of course. There is

Ant Pruitt (01:45:21):
Nothing around

Leo Laporte (01:45:22):
It. Yeah man. Yeah. Well that's where is, are you looking at it? I don't know where I've never even heard of it. Little north of Stockton. Oh, okay. Lockford residents will be the first to receive prime delivery packages delivered to their backyards via drone. Not everything. Obviously they can't be everything, not gonna get that inflatable pool, but thousands of items will be eligible for drone delivery. There will be right restrictions cuz most drones can't do it again. A drone can only care so much, right? A few pounds. Amazon says it's developing technology to improve obstacle avoidance both on the ground, in the air it's working on enable its drones to operate B V L O S Belo beyond the visual line of sight. Well I would hope so. Otherwise the pilots let's do, you can deliver it. Well, why don't you put it over there off? So maybe, you know what, maybe it's still BS maybe to 3,500 people. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:46:24):
78% white. Yeah. It's White's a small scale.

Ant Pruitt (01:46:27):
Yeah. This is the perfect pilot. I also think city.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:46:30):
Yeah. I mean, this is a pilot and I also think drone, delivery's not gonna be obviously for everything. Right. I think part of the mistake technology or people, when we talk about technology, we often think we're like, this will solve all of our problems. When in reality it'll solve a subset of our problems and the trade offs. We've gotta

Leo Laporte (01:46:47):
Understand. So it was

Ant Pruitt (01:46:48):
Nice. It's it? It's sold that way though. A lot of this stuff today is just,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:46:52):
Oh yeah, no, I get it.

Ant Pruitt (01:46:53):
The answer to your biggest problem. You know how many, and I know you're in the's IOT space, but how many things in IOT was set to just make our lives so much better by putting it on our mobile device and controlling it there instead of flipping the switch that's on the wall, right? When you

Leo Laporte (01:47:09):
Walk there, this is from an article on the verge 20 13, 9 years ago. Amazon's Jeff Bezo showed off his company's latest creation to Charlie Rosen, 60 minutes drones that can deliver packages nine years ago, up to five pounds in your house in less than half an hour. Part of a program called Amazon prime air, a drone sits at the end of a conveyor BA belt waiting to pick up a package. Nine years later, they still haven't delivered that package. <Laugh> Bezos says 86% of Amazon's packages are under five pounds and carry 'em up to 10 miles from the fulfillment center. As soon as Amazon can work out the regulations and figure out how to prevent your packages from being dropped on your head from above

Ant Pruitt (01:47:53):
<Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:47:54):
Nine years ago,

Ant Pruitt (01:47:56):
This is that's called an R and D. Yeah, right?

Leo Laporte (01:47:58):
Yeah. This is, this is why our job is hard by the way, because we see all this stuff. I think

Stacey Higginbotham (01:48:04):
It's why our job is

Leo Laporte (01:48:05):
Awesome. It's why it's fun. Yeah. I

Ant Pruitt (01:48:06):
Mean, yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:48:07):
You get to see this, you get to say, oh, what will this, what are the implications of this? Because you know, the companies aren't thinking of like that sort of thing, like what are the implications to wildlife?

Leo Laporte (01:48:19):
No, that's our job. A bunch of

Stacey Higginbotham (01:48:19):
Drones running

Leo Laporte (01:48:20):
Around. Yeah. That's our job. So I, I don't know. And also a big part, I think of my job anyway, is, is telling people whether this is real or not to waste your time as best I can. It's hard to do. Mm-Hmm

Ant Pruitt (01:48:34):
<Affirmative> of

Leo Laporte (01:48:35):
Cheese NFTs and B Bitcoins. <Laugh> by the way, now, add to the Warren B Warren buffet says that all his cryptos crap now add bill gates, name to the list of people who are saying don't. Now you might say, these guys are all old.

Ant Pruitt (01:48:51):
Are they saying it? Because right now when it is down 70,

Leo Laporte (01:48:55):
Well, that's easy now, isn't it. But I've been saying it for a while. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (01:48:58):
Yeah. You

Leo Laporte (01:48:59):
Have and you know, bill gates says crypto and NFTs are a sham. He is, he says wrong words. Yeah. These digital assets are a hundred percent based on the greater fool theory. He told the tech crunch conference yesterday. 

Ant Pruitt (01:49:17):
He's been watching TWI.

Leo Laporte (01:49:18):
He added he's not long or short on crypto. And he mocked board ape NFTs, joking that expensive digital images of monkeys will yeah. Improve the world immensely. He prefers old fashioned investing cuz he is an old fashioned kind of guy. I'm used to asset classes like a farm <laugh> where they have output or a company where they make products.

Ant Pruitt (01:49:43):
And Mr. Gates check out at pro.com/print,

Leo Laporte (01:49:46):
Get some prints. Get somet. What if you think about this though? Aunt Jay-Z is, is, has created a Bitcoin academy. How

Jeff Jarvis (01:49:55):
About for timing? Huh?

Leo Laporte (01:49:56):
For kids in the Marcy houses public projects. I think this is probably misguided. This is the, the projects in Brooklyn where JayZ grew up free classes. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> to residents also devices and data plans. Children five to 17 will be eligible for enrollment in crypto kids, CLA camp featuring classes on crypto.

Ant Pruitt (01:50:19):
If he's some exciting knowledge about it. I, I have no problem with him providing knowledge about it. Considering how many people still have no idea what Bitcoin is. Some people think you can pick up a Bitcoin, you

Leo Laporte (01:50:32):
Know, no it'll instructors will quote, teach you about Bitcoin, how it works, why you should care and how to build your own financial future.

Ant Pruitt (01:50:41):
Yeah. I don't know about that, but 

Jeff Jarvis (01:50:42):
That's a little,

Ant Pruitt (01:50:44):
Yeah, I don't know about that part. The other part I'm fine with.

Leo Laporte (01:50:49):
I think, I mean, I look, I don't think Jay-Z's a bad guy and I think he's probably trying to do the right thing. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and he says that's timing. Yeah. Well the program's mission statement reads the vision for Bitcoin is that it doesn't have barriers, but lack of access to financial education is a barrier it's still hard to use for everyday necessities. Plus people need devices and data plans. This program aims to provide education, empower the community with knowledge and get rid of some of the bar barriers so that residents can learn more about Bitcoin specifically and finance in general. I mean, I think in principle, maybe this is okay, especially if they learn about Bitcoin, stay the hell away from it.

Ant Pruitt (01:51:26):
The volatility of it, you know? Yeah. I, I'm totally fine with it. Just educating the, those youth in that area that, that normally wouldn't have access to that information. I'm totally fine with

Leo Laporte (01:51:36):
Them. Well, and, and one of the problems, what

Stacey Higginbotham (01:51:38):
If it's a lost leader for financial education? Like

Leo Laporte (01:51:41):
These things are excited about that's right.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:51:43):
Crypto. So, I mean, it could be

Leo Laporte (01:51:45):
One of the, you know, one of the things that sucks people into Bitcoin is this notion of we're underserved communities, you know housing project in Brooklyn cities in Africa big banks don't want to be there. We we're redlined out as ex existence. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so maybe there is an alternative financial system that we can participate in mm-hmm <affirmative> and I think that I understand the, the desire to do that. I just hope they don't lose their shirts.

Ant Pruitt (01:52:12):
Right. That's where I am just, just teach the financial responsibility part of this as well.

Leo Laporte (01:52:19):
Yeah. vice says for poor people excluded from the traditional financial system, throwing them to a new one full of bubbles, fraud, exploitation, and volatility. Won't teach them much. It'll just be old wine and new skins.

Ant Pruitt (01:52:35):
It is teaching that information. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:52:39):
It depends what they say. Yeah. All

Jeff Jarvis (01:52:41):
Right. Same as when, when you know the class, Hey, kids, let's, let's make believe we're buying 10 stocks by kid went through that. Yeah. Right. And you learn the dangers in the stock market, but that's also how the world works though. Yeah. Bitcoin. Isn't how the world

Leo Laporte (01:52:53):
Works yet. Yeah. Qualcomm is won a battle against the EU. We hear a lot about the EU and regulations of big tech, the EU find Qualcomm, nearly a billion dollars, actually a billion Euro. So more than a, more than a billion dollars, apparently these days. Yeah. <laugh> this was four years ago in 2018, the E EC said Qualcomm paid billions of dollars to apple from 2011 to 2016 to get them to use only its chips and iPhones and iPads to block out rivals like Intel. Now, the reason this might be important is this is a court, the general court Europes second highest a null, the finding and faulted margarita Steger, the EU competition, enforcer over the handling of the case. Wow. A number of procedural irregularities. That's tough. One afflicted affected Qualcomm's rights of defense and invalidate the commission's analysis of the conduct. So yeah, no kidding. This is a big blow to ate. Best thing here. Yeah. Big.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:00):
I wonder what the procedure abnormalities were.

Leo Laporte (01:54:03):
Yeah. I, don't probably very boring. This story from Reuters is not more specific.

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:07):
I love procedural issues.

Leo Laporte (01:54:10):
Can you get on that and give us a report? 

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:13):
You know, I was the person and model you in who understood all the rules of like parliamentary procedure and figured out how to use that to my advantage.

Leo Laporte (01:54:21):
Kind of the Roberts rules. Avoiders the are outta, outta order. You, are you having a heart attack? You okay. Oh, on, oh on,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:54:42):
Oh, this is, this is the second dead air that has caught me. I'm like, what is happening?

Leo Laporte (01:54:48):
You're talking, you're talking about this wonderful guy, John Burow who is that? He's no longer the speaker no longer the speaker, but he was so great.

Speaker 5 (01:54:57):
Mr. Angus, Brendan McNeil, calm yourself.

Leo Laporte (01:55:01):
<Laugh> you may be

Speaker 5 (01:55:02):
A cheeky chappy, but you're also an exceptionally noisy one.

Leo Laporte (01:55:06):
<Laugh> wow. This is, I mean, this is parliament.

Jeff Jarvis (01:55:09):
He was just starting his order.

Leo Laporte (01:55:11):
Yeah. Oh, you want, you want order?

Speaker 5 (01:55:16):
I must order the honorable gentleman to withdraw immediately from the house for the remainder of this day sitting. This is intolerable behavior. As far as the public. Now it's not funny that sticker on the subject of Brexit happens to be Afix too or in the windscreen of my wife's car. <Laugh> yes. And I'm sure the honorable gentleman wouldn't suggest

Speaker 6 (01:55:43):
For one

Leo Laporte (01:55:43):
Moment. Why don't we have somebody like this? So why Stacy, would you volunteer to go to go to Washington DC and say OTA?

Stacey Higginbotham (01:55:55):
Yes, I volunteer. And you wanna back me up? We'll

Leo Laporte (01:55:59):
So good. You'd be so good. Wow. The truth

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:04):
Module is up high. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:56:05):
Yeah, yeah. You have to set it to 80 or 90%. Well, actually you actually,

Stacey Higginbotham (01:56:10):
As long as I can call someone a cheeky chappy, cheeky

Leo Laporte (01:56:14):
Chappy, you may be a cheeky chappy, but they're all cheeky is the damn place. Yeah. You mentioned Douglas Rich. Brushoff I just got a, you probably got a two Jeff, since you know the guy I got an early copy of his new book, which I cannot wait to read survival of the richest.

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:31):
Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:56:32):
Escape. Fantasies of the tech billionaires. This is what the billionaires are planning. Not just Mars, but island bunkers, the metaverse and and decommissioned nuclear <laugh> missile silos,

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:48):
And Douglas. And I got along wonderfully teaching class together, even though we do see the world somewhat differently.

Leo Laporte (01:56:52):
Yeah. I, I look forward to reading this. Just got it. And I can't wait to read it.

Jeff Jarvis (01:56:57):
You said as Ethan earlier, we finally get him

Leo Laporte (01:56:59):
On the show. Yeah. It's not out yet, but you could pre-order it. Yeah, we will. You know what? Well, let me read it. If it's good, we will. Okay. But I am sure it's good. He's on team human after all. I forgot. Yes. Douglas Rushkoff is he a what's his, is he a media critic? Is he a professor? What is his, yeah,

Jeff Jarvis (01:57:17):
He's a professor. He, he doesn't have a doctorate like me as I don't have a doctorate either, but, but he's

Leo Laporte (01:57:23):
Started. Wait a minute, but I have, I should have been calling you Dr. Jar.

Jeff Jarvis (01:57:28):
I was, I was just at an event at university of Virginia and, and they had the bios. And so everybody's Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. I had to be very clear to say,

Leo Laporte (01:57:35):
Ah, doctor, not a doctor. Well, my father who has a PhD got it at very young age. I think he was like 23 or 24 from Columbia in paleontology.

Jeff Jarvis (01:57:47):
Wow. Do you know what his topic of his, of his dissertation?

Leo Laporte (01:57:49):
Yes. Ancient Marine ecosystems, but systems, but he refused. He said, do not call me doctor that's. I'm not a, I'm not a Medi medical doctor. He didn't, he, oh, there's a reverse snobbery going on. You don't call me doctor until he needed restaurant reservations. Then it was always Dr. Laport. Every time it works, we gotta take a little break.

Jeff Jarvis (01:58:14):
Although professor Laport

Leo Laporte (01:58:16):
Professor does not even back then profess you know, remember Adly Stevens that doesn't get you dinner reservations. Get you dinner reservations. Doctor might. Yeah. Let us, because it is soon to be time. Oh, wait a minute though. One TikTok. <Laugh>

Stacey Higginbotham (01:58:34):
I just wanna know that y'all all, y'all all y'all full circle on TikTok y'all aunt.

Leo Laporte (01:58:41):
This is a Chipotle ad for Kaso.

Jeff Jarvis (01:58:44):
This is the ultimate. Twig is Chipo used, used to like Scott Chipotle Kaso and TikTok.

Leo Laporte (01:58:50):
Here we go said

Speaker 7 (01:58:51):
Queso, Blanco,

Leo Laporte (01:58:52):
The and hot salsa to Kaso Blanco. Shake it up. Enjoy case

Speaker 7 (01:58:55):
Blanco is free every Monday in June with an entre purchase COSO 22 and the Chipotle opera online.

Leo Laporte (01:59:00):
But don't doesn't Chipotle Caso. Isn't that disgusting? It

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:04):
Actually got better. Oh, okay. It was awful start. It was

Leo Laporte (01:59:07):
Awful. Okay.

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:08):
It was gritty. It was

Leo Laporte (01:59:09):
Really, it was gritty.

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:10):
Exactly gritty. Yes. It was like chalk. It was melted chalk

Leo Laporte (01:59:15):
Shit.

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:16):
But

Stacey Higginbotham (01:59:16):
That is not a hack putting salsa in your case though, is just a

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:20):
Thing you do.

Leo Laporte (01:59:21):
No, it's just a thing you do. Like

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:23):
It's like it's a

Leo Laporte (01:59:24):
One does.

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:25):
Or as we remain bitter that Chipotle had never bought an out on the show. We give them tons ity,

Leo Laporte (01:59:30):
Their you know, early on. Well,

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:31):
Most of it was

Stacey Higginbotham (01:59:32):
About how bad their Kaso was.

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:33):
So early on

Leo Laporte (01:59:35):
When we were doing the gizz withs with Dick de Bartolo, we could never get a sponsor. So I started doing fake ads for Totino's pizza rolls

Jeff Jarvis (01:59:44):
<Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:59:44):
For the longest time. And then I found out they're not Totinos they're Totinos to, I basically blew it. And now a word from STAs. No, let's do the Google change log. Ah, ah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:02):
Did you hear that? A Google change log can't cue in the middle of him laughing. Ah, I love it.

Leo Laporte (02:00:09):
What? He's so what is it, Jason? What is it?

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:13):
Tricaster?

Leo Laporte (02:00:14):
What? We're not seeing the TriCaster. Oh, now does that mean I have to start the show over? No, thank God.

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:26):
<Laugh> it's just, it's just extra value for the TWI people.

Leo Laporte (02:00:32):
It's it's just the stream. It's not the recording. Okay. Let's do that again. And now ladies and gentlemen, time for the Google. Well, you know, doesn't he say, change log in there. That's

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:48):
The wrong one.

Leo Laporte (02:00:53):
And, and now it's time for the Google change long,

Jeff Jarvis (02:00:58):
The Google change load there. We,

Leo Laporte (02:01:03):
So if you are a newspaper or a blogger, you probably take corrections pretty seriously. Youtube has never had a way for YouTubers to correct their videos. So there's a new feature, just added to YouTube called corrections. You can easily add more obvious corrections. I see YouTube videos all the time,

Jeff Jarvis (02:01:28):
Audio or what, what do you do? How do you, how do you,

Leo Laporte (02:01:31):
What I don't they're info cards that you add, oh, to the video, this

Jeff Jarvis (02:01:34):
Is wrong. What you're seeing in

Leo Laporte (02:01:36):
Hearing, right? Yeah. What I'm saying is completely wrong. Actually. It's weird. Cuz you have a popup that says few corrections. How many, how many YouTubers are gonna use this? Really?

Jeff Jarvis (02:01:45):
Oh, like three. Yeah. I was wrong. Use

Leo Laporte (02:01:47):
It. Well, I see that a lot. I'll watch videos and I see it a lot where, you know, the guy says something, I do it. Everybody does it. If you're doing it and you're doing fast, it something wrong, you know, it's the 64 gigs of Ram and it's only 32 and they'll put a little caption on this. It was 32. I made it. That's

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:02):
What most people

Leo Laporte (02:02:03):
Do. Yeah. That's normal.

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:05):
Actually. I'm gonna use that cuz I've gotta take my videos that I did two years ago for the incoming class. And it's some things I wanna change so I can just use it. Update. Doesn't have to be a correction. Right? It could also be an update. 

Leo Laporte (02:02:15):
That's a good question. If it says correction, I think it, it says corrections. Let's see here's the full instructions. Wow. It's complicated. Okay. I read all let's

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:31):
Youtube. You gotta watch the video. You gotta understand how

Leo Laporte (02:02:34):
Google Chrome's on device. Machine learning. You know they love saying that is sentient. No, no, sorry. <Laugh>

Jeff Jarvis (02:02:43):
<Laugh> my phone is alive. Oh no it kill it.

Leo Laporte (02:02:49):
It says. Or they say it blocks noisy notification prompts. So they've always had built in not always, but they, for a long time, they have a built in fishing detection that tells you if the site you're going to, you've seen it. It pops up and say, this is a scam, right? Now in the Chrome 1 0 2, it's gonna use machine learning that runs entirely within the browser. No Google data. Going back to Google that will help identify websites that make unsolicited permission requests for notifications and silence system. Now the first thing I do in Chrome and Firefox safari and every browser is I say block requests for notifications. I don't like it when websites do notifi. Oh you could

Jeff Jarvis (02:03:32):
Block that universally. Yes. Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:03:35):
It's such a nice feature. Awesome. Well I think I do in Firefox and I'm pretty sure I remember doing it in Chrome. I it's the first thing you can do it in Chrome. Yeah, I do it. Yeah. It's all. But this buried cuz it's in the content section. Okay. So it's not it's you have to really look for it. But

Jeff Jarvis (02:03:52):
If you Google it it's really. Yeah. You should totally do it. It's easy to do. Oh

Leo Laporte (02:03:56):
Cool. Oh. Cause they drive drives me crazy. So the first thing I do when I set up a browser is I turn off, I block notifications from all sites and I block the request to save passwords cuz I use a password manager and I don't want that. So there's just little annoyances. Anyway. Google says that you're not even gonna have to change that setting anymore because we'll now just know to further improve the browsing experience. We've also evolved how people are interacting with web notifications. So it in effect, I guess it's possible to sneakily say turn on notifications without your permission or something. So they're gonna block that. Tell people, browse the web with minimal interruption. Chrome predicts. When permission prompts are unlikely to be granted. Oh I get it.

Ant Pruitt (02:04:41):
Oh they see the script.

Leo Laporte (02:04:42):
You, you don't want no, you don't want notifications and they silence the prompts.

Ant Pruitt (02:04:47):
Okay.

Leo Laporte (02:04:49):
Ah, I guess, I guess anyway,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:04:53):
Do you have to pay extra? No. To get your prompts.

Leo Laporte (02:04:57):
Oh does the site have to? Yeah. How does it know it's undesirable? Is it Yelp? Yeah. <laugh> is it exactly? <Laugh> you know, we know you don't want those Yelp notifications.

Jeff Jarvis (02:05:08):
Well, in fact I don't. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:05:10):
Google maps now shows toll prices on Android and iOS. So you'll know ahead of time that you've gotta pay some to that's nice. Do you pay, you pay a lot of to don't you Jeff in New Jersey. Oh yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:05:22):
Yeah. Oh

Leo Laporte (02:05:23):
Yeah. It's it's the thing.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:05:24):
You pay a lot of tools

Leo Laporte (02:05:25):
Too. Really? We only the bridges bridges. It's the bridges. We have the on the bridges we pay. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis (02:05:31):
Just what's the term

Ant Pruitt (02:05:32):
For me. No two for me. Cause there's Richmond bridge

Leo Laporte (02:05:36):
Too. Yeah. Richmond and golden gate bridge. Yeah. And bay bridge has a toll too shortcuts. Replacing files and folders stored in multiple locations on Google drive. I thought you always had shortcuts.

Jeff Jarvis (02:05:51):
I didn't understand this. That's why I put it in there. I thought you'd explain it to me. <Laugh>

Stacey Higginbotham (02:05:56):
I don't know what this is about. Leo figured out for me.

Leo Laporte (02:05:59):
<Laugh> how easy for you find organize files while keeping the original version. Well, it's

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:03):
Gonna do it automatically. It's gonna gonna do it to you on a given date.

Leo Laporte (02:06:06):
See this windows does this, which I don't like windows looks like it's a folder for my documents, but it's just, it's a saved search. It's not what you think it is. So the replacement process will start in 2022. You'll get a notification in Google drive a few weeks before your replacement starts. <Laugh> wait a minute. What you process will replace all but one location of files and folders that are currently in this is to save them storage. If you have, if they the same file and multiplications, they're just gonna go cycle. 'em All into

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:37):
One that should that be in Google.

Leo Laporte (02:06:38):
Well, but there's billions of people.

Jeff Jarvis (02:06:40):
Well

Stacey Higginbotham (02:06:40):
That's true across all of us. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:06:43):
The replacement decision will be based on original file and folder ownership will also consider access and activity on other folders that's so they know which one is the original at the time of replacement. Oh, so yeah. So it's automatic. So they're gonna replace duplicate documents in your Google drive with shortcuts.

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:00):
What if I put a document in another place so I can change it?

Leo Laporte (02:07:04):
If it's changed,

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:05):
They won't do that document. No, no, no, no. I'm saying something different. I get ready to

Leo Laporte (02:07:09):
Tomorrow, but you haven't changed it yet.

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:10):
I'm going to change it. Right. And then I start changing document two thinking I'm changing only document two, but now I'm changing document one. Mm.

Leo Laporte (02:07:18):
I don't know. Railroad. We'll have to see.

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:21):
Oh yeah. Right, right. RO

Leo Laporte (02:07:23):
Google row. Google lists. This is from Chrome unboxed.com. Google lists. They're recommended third party apps for Google workspace. Okay, great.

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:33):
Well, I also put this in here cause I didn't. That's what I saw. They say they do it every year. Oh, okay. But I don't know. I never, I've never seen

Leo Laporte (02:07:39):
It. It's just the, it's the apps. You know, when you say I want an app,

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:44):
But they only recommend 12 of them. I didn't know that

Leo Laporte (02:07:46):
There was a hierarchy. Those are a special apps.

Jeff Jarvis (02:07:49):
The mail mediar

Leo Laporte (02:07:51):
Calendar invites are gonna be changed a little bit to be more modern and more clear. That's a good thing. Cuz these calendar invites are terrible. Dead. I, well,

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:04):
The problem I have, I dunno if this happens to you, is that people want to have a zoom meeting. You put the name in it. It says make it a Google meet meeting and then make it a zoom meeting. And then they don't erase. They make it a Google meet meeting and nobody knows where to meet

Stacey Higginbotham (02:08:17):
That's because Google automatically populates it because exactly antitrust.

Leo Laporte (02:08:23):
Yeah. Yes. So here's the,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:08:24):
Because they're antitrust.

Leo Laporte (02:08:25):
Here's the old invite. Blah, blah, blah. You, you recognize this and then oh yeah. Oh yeah. And then the new one is gonna be like this. <Laugh>

Stacey Higginbotham (02:08:35):
Do that again. Go back.

Leo Laporte (02:08:37):
It's not like a much better. Yeah. It's not.

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:38):
No, it's not like much

Stacey Higginbotham (02:08:40):
Different. No, not helpful.

Leo Laporte (02:08:41):
Well, it is better. Oh, it's much better

Stacey Higginbotham (02:08:44):
Figuring out where your meeting is, is nicer.

Leo Laporte (02:08:47):
Yeah. See a nice big button says join with Google meet.

Jeff Jarvis (02:08:52):
I hope I can still do zoom through

Leo Laporte (02:08:53):
The that's one thing we've had problems in the past. I think it's still happening. Where if you make a zoom meeting with Google, it also adds a meeting, a meet ID. And then mm-hmm <affirmative> there's always, you

Jeff Jarvis (02:09:04):
Have to that's what I was saying. Creator.

Leo Laporte (02:09:06):
That's

Stacey Higginbotham (02:09:06):
What was complaining.

Jeff Jarvis (02:09:07):
That's what I just said. You have to kill, you have hate that you have to explicitly kill.

Leo Laporte (02:09:11):
That happens to you too. Oh, okay. I understand.

Jeff Jarvis (02:09:13):
They make it automatically and you can kill it, but if you don't kill it, both are there and meet is above zoom and everybody's confused.

Leo Laporte (02:09:19):
Today is the last day you can use Google talk. What? It's so it's still operational, but tomorrow it's over for Google talk also known as G chat. This is what you were talking about. Stacy.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:09:33):
Yes.

Leo Laporte (02:09:35):
You were supposed to be using Hangouts and then they killed Hangouts. <Laugh> me. So you were supposed to be using meat or chat. I think chat

Stacey Higginbotham (02:09:44):
All of them over my life. Yeah. Yes. And so I didn't know. G talk was still

Leo Laporte (02:09:48):
Available. I am amazed. Hangouts is kind of still hanging around, but it's Google chat. Can

Stacey Higginbotham (02:09:54):
They kill Hangouts? Cuz it's all, mine's all chat now. I don't have Hangouts

Leo Laporte (02:09:58):
Isn't they rebranded you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:10:00):
I have chat

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:01):
This irritating thing. Sorry Stacy, go ahead.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:10:05):
No, no.

Leo Laporte (02:10:06):
He's very excited about it.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:10:08):
I know <laugh> I was like, oh my,

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:10):
When I, when I reboot the machine, it comes on and says we're changing. We're eliminating this and that and that and that. So get rid of this and start this. And then I click on it and it goes to a 4, 4 0 4 every damn time. Now <affirmative> every day. I'm time now.

Leo Laporte (02:10:23):
Well that sucks.

Jeff Jarvis (02:10:24):
Yeah, it does.

Leo Laporte (02:10:26):
All right. One more thing. And then it's waffle time. Well, no, it's a, it's a pick time and just bit <laugh> but I, I wanna talk about the flop O Tron 3.0 Google change log. And that's the Google change log.

Leo Laporte (02:10:42):
And now ladies, gentlemen, you're out of order. It's time for the flop O Tron 3.0 this guy, this crazy guy put together a musical instrument made out of hundreds of old floppy discs. The drives because as you probably know, they make an, a little whining sound, which he can, the stepper motor control to get a specific frequency problem is the floppy tend to sound kind of Basey. So he is also using various other things like flatbed scanners for the, the, the low, the higher tones. <Laugh> would you like to hear the flop Tron 3.0 in action. Here it is on YouTube. Yes.

Speaker 8 (02:11:39):
A few minutes later. One

Leo Laporte (02:11:47):
That was 2016. This is 2022. He knew F FLA Tron, the size of the sucker. Jesus. Wow. Does this guy ever get dates? You want to come over? Listen to some music. This is pretty great.

Speaker 8 (02:12:23):
Watching

Leo Laporte (02:12:24):
That's scanners. 512 floppy disc drives four flat bit scanners.

Speaker 8 (02:12:37):
Unbelievable.

Leo Laporte (02:12:38):
Doing the low end I in the high end, those are hard. Drive stepper. 16 of those doing the kind of percussion he's even got custom interfaces. 3.0 PSU module, power consumption. 300 Watts peak. No three Watts average. 1.2 kilowat peak. There is you saw that emergency stop button. When the wife comes in.

Speaker 8 (02:13:15):
Wow.

Leo Laporte (02:13:18):
He went from, does this guy get dates to being married all in one? I don't know. I'm

Speaker 8 (02:13:22):
Thinking that I'm joking.

Leo Laporte (02:13:24):
<Laugh> it's really, this is really my impressive.

Speaker 9 (02:13:32):
Yeah. Said Mr. Like

Leo Laporte (02:13:38):
What does he do for

Speaker 9 (02:13:39):
Living?

Leo Laporte (02:13:52):
We're so easy to abuse with great power comes a great energy bill. He says

Speaker 9 (02:13:57):
<Laugh> oh boy, oh boy.

Leo Laporte (02:14:00):
It's a long article. Silent.Org dot P's Polish. The next step of MIGS videos of the new setup. Some minor software bugs to fix some software to add like end stops for scanners. And he wants to do some new instruments. Do matrix printer, maybe some automated lighting. This is Stacy on IOT. This is you Stacy. This is this is where you're headed. If you continue down this road in her doted, this dark road that I'm on. <Laugh> wow. The flop Tron 3.0 silent.org.pl all right. Final ad. Then we're picks. And then and it's waffle time. You know, one of the things I did love about termination shock, which we're gonna talk about tomorrow on Stacey's book club is there is a mention of the Stroop waffle in the book, right? They have a lovely meal. Oh. And at the end, the dessert, he says, of course a Stroop waffle.

Speaker 9 (02:14:59):
So another one this involves the queen of the Netherlands.

Leo Laporte (02:15:03):
Exactly. SIA loves her through S this weekend. Google is brought to you quite literally by cash flight. Now we don't have 512 hard, hard drives making music, but we do have cash fly. Our content delivery network. We've been using it for more than a decade. They, they really came to our rescue 10 years ago. More than that. Now I think 12 years ago, when we were struggling with all the downloads we had to give, and then we went to video and oh, is this a nightmare ized, the best 50 points of presence all over the world, which means your content has delivered closer to your customers. Outperforms local CDNs. In fact, it's, it was so much faster than our 30% faster than other CDNs. 10 times faster than our old HTTP method was a revolution. And I bet you never say to yourself, gosh, it's so slow downloading this TWI podcast.

Leo Laporte (02:16:01):
It's not thanks to cashflow. Now. Cashflow does low latency, ultra low latency video streaming deliver your video with cashflow, the best throughput and global reach, making your content infinitely. Scalable. You can go live in hours, not days and get this sub one second latency less than a second ditch. Your unreliable web RTC solution for their web socket live video workflow, scalable to millions of users. You should also check out ly storage optimization system. We've been kinda using a unannounced version of this for a long time. We put our content on cash slice servers, which takes load off the origin servers reduces your S3 bills and increases your cash. Hit ratio to 100% ask about SOS ized storage optimization system. And with izing elite managed packages, you get fully managed CDN solutions, VIP treatment, 24 7 support response times in less than an hour. And I could tell you the cash flight team is fantastic.

Leo Laporte (02:17:07):
If there's ever a problem, they solve it. And by the way, there's never been a problem. They're incredible. So what do you get ultra low latency video streaming more than a million concurrent users, lightning, fast gaming, zero lag, zero glitches, zero outages, mobile content optimization that offers automatic and simple image optimization. So your site loads faster on any device. And with those multiple CDNs, you're getting short roots, minimum performance glitches, and a hundred percent availability in the last 12 months, 100% availability, a 98% cash hit ratio as well. Best of all, cash fly has a 24 7 365 priority support. So, you know, they'll always be there for you when you need them. We love cash fly. We really are so grateful for all that they've done for us. They've put us on the air and kept us on the air. Learn more at cash. Fly.Com, CAC E FL C a C H E F L y.com. Thank you, cashflow. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. From the bottom of my heart, cashflow.com, Stacy, Stacy, you probably have a hundred things you wanna talk about since you've begun. So, so much lately. What do you, what do you got for us?

Leo Laporte (02:18:21):
Nothing. Absolutely nothing. A Stroop waffle. She's got a Stroop waffle for us. St. Waffle.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:18:27):
No, I have. Okay. So father's day is this weekend. If that's

Leo Laporte (02:18:32):
Oh crap. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:18:34):
So

Leo Laporte (02:18:35):
I have a father. I better get going. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:18:37):
Good. Good to know. Good to know. I bought this and I just got, so my, my husband actually got this for me for mother's day and I'm just gonna tell y'all I am really spoiled. Just know that. So this is my new Kindle eight. The reason I got it is because it's waterproof and I wanted to read books in my hot tub. Oh, she

Leo Laporte (02:18:58):
Has a

Stacey Higginbotham (02:18:59):
Great,

Leo Laporte (02:19:01):
No, that's a great thing.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:19:03):
Wal garden, the privilege flex on him, flex on him. I know. Y'all just, just, I'm a simple woman who needs some very fancy things.

Leo Laporte (02:19:16):
<Laugh> <laugh>

Stacey Higginbotham (02:19:18):
But I didn't, I, my, my old Kindle was perfectly fine. And so I didn't, my husband got it for me, cuz oh, it actually does make a nice gift. But I was like, I can't take this. This Kindle is fine. I've gotta wait till this one breaks easy or I

Leo Laporte (02:19:31):
Leave it an airplane. Cause I do that. What kind is this a paper white or an Oasis? What kind of it

Stacey Higginbotham (02:19:35):
Is, it is a paper white it's the eighth generation paper. White. Okay. So while I was, so I actually ended up my daughter's Kindle broke while she was quarantining. So I gave her my Kindle and then so I was

Jeff Jarvis (02:19:47):
Able, oh, likely excuse use

Stacey Higginbotham (02:19:48):
This one.

Leo Laporte (02:19:50):
What happened to the book reader I gave you did that, that

Jeff Jarvis (02:19:54):
<Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:19:56):
It's over there. I couldn't,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:19:57):
I couldn't read it in the hot tub Leo.

Leo Laporte (02:19:59):
Oh no, that's a good point. But

Stacey Higginbotham (02:20:02):
So, so I finally opened it cuz, or

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:04):
She did read it in the hot tub, but

Leo Laporte (02:20:05):
It's a corner.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:20:07):
Yeah, it didn't work. But so now, now I tested it cuz one of the things I was able to do in Puerto Rico, I, we were in the hotel, had a pool and it had like little lounge chairs in the pool. And so I could read in the lounge chair in the pool.

Leo Laporte (02:20:21):
Oh. And it worked.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:20:22):
So this is truly waterproof.

Leo Laporte (02:20:24):
I love the paper wipe. I, they, the, the screen is so crisp. It's really good.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:20:29):
It's really nice. Yeah. I don't know if here, let me let's show you

Leo Laporte (02:20:31):
My, is that the signature edition with that lock screen ads? Or do you get the lock screen ads?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:20:39):
Oh, I get the locksmith. I love the locksmith.

Leo Laporte (02:20:42):
I know. I'm not gonna lie at all. Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:20:44):
Yeah. My husband and I are like romantic brothers or whatever, you know? It's like something, this

Leo Laporte (02:20:49):
Usually books. Yeah. Oh look how nice. That looks very crisp. So,

Jeff Jarvis (02:20:55):
Oh, is that, is that, is that Ellie Misty's book?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:20:58):
Yes it is. <Laugh>.

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:00):
Who

Leo Laporte (02:21:00):
Is you? Recogniz it. How, how did you recognize that the fir give

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:04):
A book in two words. First sentence.

Leo Laporte (02:21:05):
I named that book in two words.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:21:09):
Television is not good.

Leo Laporte (02:21:11):
Wow. Amazing. It's

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:13):
Excellent. It's excellent. And I, but I highly, highly highly recommend the audio book version cuz it's Ellie in full performance.

Leo Laporte (02:21:20):
What's the name of it's

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:23):
Stacey, you have it right in front of you.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:21:24):
Hold on. But I don't have the title in front of you. Allow me to retort a black guy's guide to the constitution

Leo Laporte (02:21:30):
By I think it's in my yes. I think it's already in my my wishlist. I will add it. No, it's not. I think you'll

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:36):
Like it

Leo Laporte (02:21:36):
Too. An yeah. Cause you've recommended that before. Yeah. It's

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:39):
Generally rended want

Leo Laporte (02:21:41):
My wishlist. I just got the John Von Neman book that you recommended before. And I'm very, I'm really enjoying it so far. Very interesting.

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:50):
Did I recommend cloud cuckoo land to you guys? It's a little touch of sci-fi.

Leo Laporte (02:21:54):
Yes you did. Didn't

Stacey Higginbotham (02:21:56):
Didn't like it at all.

Jeff Jarvis (02:21:58):
Well, you didn't <laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:21:59):
Oh boy.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:22:00):
It was really distressing to me that I was just like, I, and maybe it's cuz I was like quarantining and like too much was going, but I just could not get into it and I wanted to so bad I'll

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:10):
It took me a while to get into it once I did. I was glad

Stacey Higginbotham (02:22:13):
I was like, dear

Leo Laporte (02:22:14):
God, what was Jeff thinking?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:22:18):
No, I mean everybody. I mean like everybody

Leo Laporte (02:22:20):
Was everybody's talking.

Jeff Jarvis (02:22:20):
I went through, I, I got five books in a row. I couldn't stand. It's

Leo Laporte (02:22:24):
Awful. It's awful. When that happens. It really is. Yeah. All right. Well I'm gonna add cloud cuckoo land and maybe I can hate it along with you. I don't know. We'll see <laugh>

Stacey Higginbotham (02:22:34):
I mean again, I probably shouldn't.

Leo Laporte (02:22:36):
Oh, this is Anthony DOR. Yeah. Yeah. It's already, this is also my wishlist already. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

Ant Pruitt (02:22:41):
Guess I'll watch too many Daum TV reruns cuz I'm I'm it amazes me how often y'all able to read

Leo Laporte (02:22:48):
These books. We force ourselves. We compel ourselves.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:22:51):
I do have a nice, a new graphic novel. If anyone's into

Leo Laporte (02:22:54):
Those monstrous looks beautiful. That's beautiful art. It

Stacey Higginbotham (02:22:59):
Is beautiful. Yeah. Check out the art here. Let me find a good

Leo Laporte (02:23:01):
Art. Nice.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:23:04):
There's lots of good. I'm trying to

Leo Laporte (02:23:05):
Do you let your daughter read those or no?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:23:07):
Oh yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:23:08):
Yeah. That's part of the childhood. Oh that's support. That looks like Eldon ring. That's beautiful.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:23:18):
Yeah. It's really nice.

Leo Laporte (02:23:19):
What is, what is Eldon ring? It's a video game. I see it going by. It's a thank you. Yeah. It's a very, very difficult

Stacey Higginbotham (02:23:25):
Blue scale. Not the gray scale.

Leo Laporte (02:23:26):
Oh that's pretty.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:23:28):
So

Leo Laporte (02:23:28):
Yeah. Is that which volume is that? There's six of them. This

Stacey Higginbotham (02:23:31):
Is volume one

Leo Laporte (02:23:32):
Volume one. All right. Jeff Jarvis, give me,

Jeff Jarvis (02:23:37):
Unless you, unless you did this on, on windows weekly. I wonder whether we should start with a moment of silence.

Leo Laporte (02:23:43):
Oh, it's sad for internet Explorer. So sad. Oh yeah. He was gonna take over the world and then there she's Christ. <Laugh> when he wakes up, he really wakes up yes. 27 years. It's gone forever. Today's the last day of internet Explorer. But we not only, we talked about it. The funniest article in the wall street journal, you're gonna like this Jeff, because it's clearly they had quotes with people who used internet Explorer. They never used internet experts. <Laugh> clearly these, these are people who merely heard wanted to get in the wall street journal. I think I'm still trying to process. It said Sam ma ma ma Malanga a 31 year old Polynesian dance instructor in ULI, Texas. It sounds like a parody. Doesn't it? Who is attached to internet Explorer. I've used it for so long. It's the first thing I get on my laptop. Well, sorry to tell you, Sam, it comes with every version of windows. You don't have to get it. He's making this up. He's making this up. Maybe he's

Stacey Higginbotham (02:24:54):
Thinking of

Leo Laporte (02:24:54):
Chrome. Yes. He's thinking of Chrome. He's thinking of Chrome. That's exactly right. Or is a, a 22 year old talker from Peterboro Ontario. Matt link says I it's sad to see it at go for me. Internet Explorer provided a portal to a world of endless information and computer games. Oh my Lord. And porn. But he's not gonna say that <laugh> Joanie. Casey. This is really hard to believe. A 67 year old retiree in Eli Lacot city. Maryland says the internet Explorer is one of the three that pop up on my cell phone. <Laugh> no, no, it's not. It's not Joanie. It's she's thinking of Chrome. I guarantee you <laugh> unbelievable. The journal that you know, they, how does, so how does this work, Jeff? How do you get somebody to like I need a, you, you put a, is there somebody these days? You probably go on Twitter. Go on Twitter. Yeah. I see somebody who remembers in an Explorer my day, my day I'd have to call around. I think of the wall street journal. You just walk around the newsroom. Well,

Ant Pruitt (02:25:58):
Where is the deck of editor? Cell phone

Leo Laporte (02:26:01):
Really? Come on. One of the three that pops up on your cell phone. What kinda cell phone does she have? <Laugh> you flip it open and oh man. <Laugh> but my, my favorite thing, if I can find it here, I bookmarked it. This is a tribute to internet Explorer website called lag, plural.tms.sx. This will bring back some memories, internet Explorer, a cat problem that needs to close. We're sorry for the inconvenience. Oh

Ant Pruitt (02:26:36):
Man, that makes my skin crawl to

Leo Laporte (02:26:38):
This day. Oh man. <Laugh> explain that. Explain this. You're listening and you're not seeing, but this happened every it's funny when I show these people, everybody recognizes it. Oh yeah. Internet Explorer would crash. And then the popup that would say something's gone wrong. <Laugh> would paint itself on the screen and you could paint with it because <laugh> you just drag it around and there'd be a million of them, a million of them. Lalo.Tms.Sx. If you want. That's hilarious.

Ant Pruitt (02:27:10):
That's gold, sir.

Leo Laporte (02:27:12):
That is, is gold. Sometimes it's the simplest things in life. <Laugh> maybe that's what she means when she says she has three browsers that pop up on her, on her screen. I don't know.

Ant Pruitt (02:27:23):
She said three, not 300,

Leo Laporte (02:27:25):
3000. <Laugh> Mr. Ant, what's your, oh, I know what your thing is.

Ant Pruitt (02:27:30):
Yeah. yesterday I believe it was yesterday at the time of recording this show, Adobe announced some updates for light room and that light room classic light room on your mobile, as well as the, you know, new cloud.

Leo Laporte (02:27:46):
I got bad news for you. This is not light room. Classic video editing is only in the new light room.

Ant Pruitt (02:27:53):
Well, well hold on. You didn't let me finish.

Leo Laporte (02:27:55):
I'm so bummed. <Laugh> okay. So yeah, let

Ant Pruitt (02:27:58):
Me finish. Okay. They added, they have a, a lot of different updates out there. One which includes video editing for Lightroom classic. And you've been able to import your videos into Lightroom classic for, I don't know how many years now never really found or used for it, but if you want to, you can and do a little bit of trimming and some retouching of your videos, just like you would, if you were on your iPhone and you shot something real quick and you know, it gives you the little quote unquote edit function. It's gonna be very similar to that, but they also added some other AI stuff in there such as the mask and features. You can now do a, a mask selection, COPI that selection and paste those same parameters into a similar shot without having to, you know, recreate your mask and recreate all of your settings and stuff. Just more AI, trying to speed up

Leo Laporte (02:28:50):
Some things. I want you to verify this for me because I read the end gadget story, which said the new feature only applies to Lightroom, not light room classic.

Ant Pruitt (02:28:59):
And 

Leo Laporte (02:29:00):
I only use Lightroom classic. I won't go near Lightroom CC. It's horrible.

Ant Pruitt (02:29:04):
<Laugh> I don't have a problem with Lightroom CC. I'm I'm a Lightroom classic person.

Leo Laporte (02:29:08):
Can you see if this works, cuz this again, according to gadget, it does not apply to Lightroom. I mean, Lightroom classic.

Ant Pruitt (02:29:14):
I will double check cuz I haven't launched Lightroom today. They say update last night,

Leo Laporte (02:29:19):
Classic has supported limited video editing and trimming and library mode, but doesn't support advanced editing in the developed module. But I'm not gonna use CC. So some of the, the other things do appear in Lightroom classic. So

Ant Pruitt (02:29:33):
Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> the other stuff. Yeah, I will. I'll launch it sometime tonight, but it up,

Leo Laporte (02:29:37):
I guess I'm not gonna do much video editing in light room, I guess

Ant Pruitt (02:29:40):
You better not <laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:29:41):
Well, here's, here's the use case for it. I take a lot of pictures, but like when I go to visit my mom in a couple of weeks, I won't be here by the way two weeks from now because Jeff's gonna host a show because you're with being Rhode Island. See my mom. But when I shoot pictures, I also every once in a while record like three or four seconds of video, just a little bit. Right. Because then I like to do a slideshow with some motion and sound in it, but I want, but I, it would be nice to just process it on Lightroom classic and trim and stuff like that. Maybe color. Correct. So that I don't have to export it out to an editor and then export import it back in and stuff like that. That's all, I'd just be nice to have some simple

Ant Pruitt (02:30:16):
Features. And I, I put editing in, sorry if I scratched my eye, edit, edit in air quotes because it's

Leo Laporte (02:30:23):
Not, it's not like

Ant Pruitt (02:30:24):
You're going create a whole

Leo Laporte (02:30:25):
Sequence, but I could trim it up and color correct it, which would be most important. Yeah. Yeah.

Ant Pruitt (02:30:29):
Cool. That's that's the Adobe updates. And lastly, I follow Biro, Biro, tripods actually use their tripods here and there and they have a closeout on one of their tripod models. So and it includes a video head. So while supplies,

Leo Laporte (02:30:47):
Video, head, check it out for Henry

Ant Pruitt (02:30:49):
For like 150 bucks. What is that model? It's the S six pro video head and it's on the aluminum tripod legs and for 150 bucks you can't beat that.

Leo Laporte (02:31:00):
That's nice.

Ant Pruitt (02:31:01):
It's an older model, but Hey, it's bend row. So it's gonna be a good quality. It's not a cheap tripod, which we talked about on hands on photography.

Leo Laporte (02:31:10):
I don't usually do pics, but this thing has been driving me crazy. It's it's I love it. It's so much fun. And it's also kind of not so much fun. It's a new plugin. Oh, it's an install over here. Oh, here it is. Row called Tucan. Do you know about this Tucan? So it's language learning. I'm gonna turn it on and the way it works, I have it set for Spanish, but I have a, they have a variety of languages, Spanish, French, German, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Italian, Arabic, Hindi, Portuguese and Hebrew. I'm gonna use a Spanish when you turn it on it. You just leave it running. It's a Firefox plugin. I think there's a Chrome plugin as well. You just leave it running. And then it changes words everywhere on the web. <Laugh> at random intervals into Spanish. So here's a tweet from AOC, perhaps abandoning youth employment, school, fun dose. What? That's Spanish for funding. And then you have a little audio. If you

Jeff Jarvis (02:32:08):
Didn't have stupid dark mode on, you could actually see the box and understand

Leo Laporte (02:32:13):
It's there. It's I'll do it on I don't know. Let's we're gonna mute Mr. Jarvis. That's yeah, I know. He's terrible. I know he's evil person. So let's here's here's here's another article. This is on GAD in light mode. So it's still about UN away UN mess. So I'm gonna learn from afar. The device appears to be una Mela, a blend Mela it's it's Castillian Spanish by the embargo. However embargo embargo. Isn't that great. So without really much effort, you're slowly getting Spanish vocabulary into your

Stacey Higginbotham (02:32:55):
PKA Boka de dragon

Leo Laporte (02:32:57):
<Laugh> Boka. That's where Ragone yes. I love that. Boka Boka, dragon, AKA snap. Ragone isn't that great. That's hysterical.

Jeff Jarvis (02:33:07):
What's what are the future tricks of, of its

Leo Laporte (02:33:10):
Manga? That's pretty cool. Isn't this neat. It's called can there's a free, complete free version. Which does pretty much everything. It does everything I just showed you. I actually ended up ping because I thought, oh, this is great. I'll use this everywhere. And then you can always turn it off. You just hit control E and then it turns off. So if you want, if you don't want a Spanish mixed here and GAT <laugh>, you can do that, but isn't that cool? Isn't that clever when I missed by? Yeah. Tocan and that I think the website is get to can.com. Let me just check real quick. Okay. Nope. That's not it. What is it? I,

Jeff Jarvis (02:33:51):
Should I hear a yawn, miss Stacy.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:33:54):
I know I was.

Leo Laporte (02:33:55):
Is that a little hint?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:33:56):
I think I'm still like, I don't have long COVID, but I am definitely

Leo Laporte (02:34:00):
Not. I hope you don't have long back to normal, by the way. How many kids

Jeff Jarvis (02:34:04):
The trip had COVID were there other kids there?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:34:07):
Literally one literally one.

Leo Laporte (02:34:09):
Oh, wow. How did she get it? Do you think? Do you know? She

Stacey Higginbotham (02:34:12):
Caught it from the what's the person who the tour leader.

Leo Laporte (02:34:17):
Oh

Stacey Higginbotham (02:34:17):
Man. And ironically, she wore a mask like religiously. Like there's a picture that, that was captioned, like smiles after the airport mask down so you can see their faces. And my child's the only one with their mask on <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:34:32):
Wow. Wow. Two can is joined. Two cant Tucan is joined Tucan, T O U C a and join tucan.com not get Tucan. Join Tucan. Well, I bet she's feeling better now. Right? She came home.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:34:44):
Yeah. Yeah. She's better. We're we made it home. Finally. Whew. Travel is crazy.

Leo Laporte (02:34:48):
Yeah.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:34:49):
So I

Leo Laporte (02:34:50):
Love us. I love Puerto Rico. I want, I, I want to get sick in Puerto Rico. Actually. I want my daughter to get sick in Puerto Rico. So actually she's in Portugal right now. So I, Ooh.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:35:01):
They know that that might also work. It

Leo Laporte (02:35:02):
Could happen. <Laugh> I'm just crossing my fingers. <Laugh> Stacey. No, I'm not. Wow. I don't wanna get sick.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:35:12):
Like hopefully she doesn't watch the show. Yeah. Some,

Jeff Jarvis (02:35:15):
Some father's day for

Leo Laporte (02:35:16):
You. Yeah. Oh, I get to go to Portugal. Stacy Higginbotham is@stacyont.com. Sign up for a newsletter it's free and it's great. Check out the events. And of course the OT podcast she does with Kevin TOEFL. Did you do it from San Juan?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:35:35):
Yes, man. And that was, that show was snake. I had like someone hammering and upstairs.

Leo Laporte (02:35:43):
Well, it was that's. Okay. These things, it's a journey. It's a good show. Apologize. It's worth it. Thank you, Stacy. I appreciate your being back. You'll be here next week, right?

Stacey Higginbotham (02:35:53):
I will. Okay. I'm gonna be gone for two weeks though. In July. Just setting your expectations.

Leo Laporte (02:35:57):
Oh, me too. Well, I'm gonna be gone yeah. For a week. Cuz we're doing the TWI cruise in the middle of July. Jeff Jarvis is of course the Leonardtown professor for journalistic innovation@thecraignewmargraduateschoolatgeneralismatthecityuniversityofnewyorkbuzzmachine.com is blog. He also writes at medium he's at Jeff Jarvis on Twitter and a very active tweeter. So you really should. I mean, if you wanna follow somebody, who's got a lot to say,

Jeff Jarvis (02:36:23):
No matter what's going on, I'm tweeting on the show off the show.

Leo Laporte (02:36:26):
I'm three. No and that's good. I mean

Stacey Higginbotham (02:36:28):
Jeff has free opinions.

Leo Laporte (02:36:30):
You're you're you're the kind of guy I wanna follow on Twitter, to be honest. And you're also full of good information about other people to follow the vigor. You might want to get a new banner image though. Actually I, he

Jeff Jarvis (02:36:42):
Does I

Leo Laporte (02:36:43):
Bit better. That's kind of

Jeff Jarvis (02:36:45):
Know whoever looks at their own

Leo Laporte (02:36:46):
Better. Yeah, no that's true. That's true. And Mr. Amp, Pruitt, hands on photography. TWI do TV slash hop. What's coming up on hop.

Ant Pruitt (02:36:57):
Oh, dang it. Oh yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:36:59):
We're good to our video. <Laugh>

Ant Pruitt (02:37:01):
I just

Leo Laporte (02:37:02):
Have young to forget

Ant Pruitt (02:37:03):
A blank. We're going back to our video editing module. We're just gonna continue to ramp up how you can create captivating videos other than just recording them with your phone and sticking 'em out there. So we're gonna talk a little bit more polished this

Leo Laporte (02:37:18):
Week and I will see you in the club tomorrow morning. 9:00 AM Pacific 12 noon Eastern. You too. Stacy. It's the book club. I can't wait. Termination shock by Neil Stevens is the book this month. But if you go to the book club, you can choose the book for next time. We already know what Stacy's favorite is. So make sure you show up at the book club. Otherwise, if you can't make it of course it goes on the TWI plus feed after the fact, I think I'll be the only one who loved that book in the oh,

Stacey Higginbotham (02:37:48):
Said

Leo Laporte (02:37:49):
Or John, John was

Stacey Higginbotham (02:37:49):
A Burke or John, John, like John liked it. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:37:52):
Yeah. So, well, we'll see what

Ant Pruitt (02:37:54):
The, the members say what?

Leo Laporte (02:37:55):
It'll be interesting. They read it. Yeah. Please join us. Stacy's book club tomorrow morning at 9:00 AM. Pacific. Thanks for joining us right here. Everybody. We do Twitter every Wednesday, 2:00 PM. Pacific 5:00 PM. Eastern 2100 UTC. You can join us and watch us live. If you want it live.twi.tv or listen, there's an audio stream as well. Chat with us at IRC dot TWI do TV. If you club twit member, there's a discord chat as well ongoing. After the fact on demand versions of the show available@twi.tv slash twig, there's also a YouTube channel. You can catch it there or subscribe in your favorite podcast player. And that way you'll get it automatically. The minute it is available. Thank you everybody for watching. We'll see you next time

Stacey Higginbotham (02:38:39):
We need

Leo Laporte (02:38:41):
What

Stacey Higginbotham (02:38:41):
We need. New art that has ant in it for our front art.

Jeff Jarvis (02:38:46):
None of it has art.

Ant Pruitt (02:38:48):
It's okay.

Leo Laporte (02:38:49):
So just to warn you <laugh> <laugh> the new artwork does have four hands in it.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:38:58):
Oh no, no, no. Not our, not our podcast art. Oh, I I'm talking about it. That there's no. Oh

Leo Laporte (02:39:03):
Yeah. We got fix that. The Jerry's gotta come in here next time. You're in studio an let's ant because of COVID has been doing it from the home, but

Stacey Higginbotham (02:39:11):
Oh yeah, no, I just want the

Leo Laporte (02:39:12):
Wait a second. Let's get new pictures. Absolutely. No, you're absolutely right on

Stacey Higginbotham (02:39:15):
The, it took me like two years to get on that an so don't worry.

Leo Laporte (02:39:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. <Laugh> what,

Jeff Jarvis (02:39:20):
But you were starting to warn us.

Ant Pruitt (02:39:21):
Hey, we're going into year two now, so we're right on time.

Stacey Higginbotham (02:39:25):
<Laugh> so yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:39:26):
Do you know who saw? It's

Stacey Higginbotham (02:39:27):
Like it's time

Leo Laporte (02:39:27):
To bring it up. Do you know who saw bass is, does that ring a bell? He was a very famous graphic designer. Did many posters, including the man with the golden arm. You remember? Right? I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's kind of what our album art looks like. <Laugh> you'll see what I mean. <Laugh>

Stacey Higginbotham (02:39:47):
Okay.

Leo Laporte (02:39:48):
In a couple weeks. Thank you everybody, John. We'll see you next time. And this weekend go, bye. Bye.

Jeff Jarvis (02:39:55):
Oh, that is the end. Now we didn't end before we it again. No,

Leo Laporte (02:39:58):
I never said goodbye. Oh I

Stacey Higginbotham (02:40:00):
Sorry. That's cuz I interrupted. I'm

Leo Laporte (02:40:02):
Sorry. I got stopped by the Higgin bot.

Jeff Jarvis (02:40:04):
I've been, I've been relegated to a shelf I'm I'm so

Leo Laporte (02:40:07):
<Laugh>

Stacey Higginbotham (02:40:07):
Yes. Oh the Jeff photo. Nobody puts Jeff in the corner.

Speaker 10 (02:40:11):
Nobody don't miss all about Android. Every week. We talk about the latest news hardware apps, and now all the developer goodness, happening in the Android ecosystem. I'm Jason Howell also joined by Ron Richards, Florence ion and our newest co-host on the panel. When to Dow who brings her developer chops. Really great stuff. We also invite people from all over the Android ecosystem to talk about this mobile platform. We love so much join us every Tuesday, all about Android on twit TV.

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