This Week in Enterprise Tech Episode 554 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Lou Maresca (00:00:00):
On this weekend, enterprise tech, we have Mr. Brian Chi and Mr. Curtis Frank, come back on the show today. Now this week we're gonna break down the SEC's latest game-changing mandate on corporate cybersecurity. We'll definitely see if it'll make a difference. Plus we have an exclusive chat with Ricardo Reyes. He's Chief Science Officer and co-founder of Aday. I'm gonna delve into how cutting edge AI is transforming workplace wellbeing and tackling employee burnout. Head on. Definitely should miss it Twit on the set. This episode is brought to you by Cisco Meraki. Without a cloud managed network, businesses inevitably fall behind. Experience, the ease and efficiency of Meraki's single platform to elevate the place where your employees and customers come together. Cisco Meraki maximizes uptime and minimizes loss. To digitally transform your organization, Meraki's intuitive interface, increase connectivity and multi-site management. Keep your organization operating seamlessly and securely wherever your team is. Let Cisco Meraki's 24 7 available support. Help your organization's remote, onsite, and hybrid teams always do their best work. Visit meraki.cisco.com/twit.

TWIT Intro (00:01:15):
Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is twit Twit.

Lou Maresca (00:01:28):
This is twt This week in Enterprise Tech. Episode 5 54, recorded July 28th. 2023 is ai. The next spellchecker. This episode of this Week's Enterprise Tech is brought to you by Niro. Miro is your team's online workspace to connect, collaborate and create together. Tap into way to map processes, systems, and plans with the whole team. Get your first three boards for free to start creating your best work yet at miro.com/podcast. And by Cisco Meraki. With employees working in different locations, providing a unified work experience seems as easy as herding cats. How do you reign in so many moving parts? The Meraki Cloud Managed Network. Learn how your organization can make hybrid work work. Visit meraki.cisco.com/twi end by Collide. Collide is a device trusted solution for companies with Okta and they ensure that if a device is as trusted and secure, it can't log into your cloud apps.

(00:02:29):
Visit collide.com/twit to book an on-demand demo today. Welcome to twit this week in enterprise tech, the show that is dedicated to you, the enterprise professional, the IT pro, and that geek who just wants to know how this world's connected. I'm your host, Louis Burka, your guy through the big world of the enterprise. But you know what? I can't guide you by myself. I need to bring in the professionals and the experts, starting with a principal analyst at MD and the man who knows everything about the enterprise. And he's also the very happy traveler. Well, Mr. Curtis Franklin, welcome back. Curtis. Where were you this week?

Curtis Franklin (00:03:03):
This week I actually got to stay at home in a in, in a, a surprising development. So enjoyed being here, enjoyed getting some work done. I have been, let's see, building my presentation for the AMIA Analysts Summit at Black Hat. I have been setting my calendar, which is getting evermore full for black hat and I've been planning my time for both Black Hat and Defcon, which are coming up in about 10 days. I will fly out two Sundays from now and look forward to reporting on everything that's going on via social media through all sorts of way. I tell you what, I'll give everyone the details at the end of the show.

Lou Maresca (00:03:56):
Sounds good. Thank you, Curtis. Looking forward to it. Well, we also have to welcome back our network geek, Mr. Brian Chi Bert, how you been my friend? It's been a while.

Brian Chee (00:04:06):
I'm still miserable. COVID is definitely not my friend. You're going to, you're gonna hear me sucking on cough drops all through the show. And I'm hoping I don't cough into the microphone this time. Anyway, you folks take care and if you have covid, just stay home. Isolate, don't share it. 'cause Boy, on something like a cruise ship the person that spread covid probably spread it long and wide throughout the passenger. Manifest.

Lou Maresca (00:04:43):
I hear you. Well thank, well, it's good to have you back. So thank you for being here. Well, you know what? We should definitely get started 'cause we haven't had a busy week in the enterprise. So this week we're breaking down the SEC's latest game changing mandate on corporate cybersecurity. And we're diving in deep into what this means for businesses and how it impacts the boardroom and why it's a crucial step for shareholder and consumer protection in the digital age. Plus, we have an exclusive chat with Ricardo Res, he's Chief science officer and co-founder of Erudite. And we're gonna delve into how cutting edge AI is really transforming workspace, wellbeing and tackling employee burnout head on. Now, you won't wanna list that insightful look into how HR technology is evolving and really the future of it lots to talk about here. You definitely should miss it.

(00:05:24):
Plus, definitely check out TWIT tv slash twit. Definitely subscribe to the TWIT podcast. We, 'cause you know, this is how we support the show and we have how we keep moving. Plus also check out club twit TWIT TV slash club twit. It's only $7 a month. It's an ad free podcast and it gets you all the special events and exclusive discord server that you need. And it's a lot of fun. So definitely check that out. But first, like we always do, let's go ahead and jump into this week's news blips in cybersecurity news. Claude Flair is stepping up its game in the fight against B G P hijacking at about time. Now for those unfamiliar, B G P is the border gateway protocol and it's like a G P S for the internet directing traffic to its correct destination. Now it's an older protocol with a notorious security flaw.

(00:06:09):
It's susceptible to actually hijacking, meaning bad actors can redirect internet traffic to wherever they please. And it's a significant threat to businesses globally. And it's now being addressed head on by CloudFlare. Now they're introduced to an innovative detection system, which uses real-time threat intelligence to identify potential B G P hijacks. So this tool proactively spots unusual routes that might actually indicate a hijack in progress. And it's like a burglar alarm for the internet. And it's alerting network administrators at the first sign of trouble allowing to, for really swift navigation, protecting the data integrity. The groundbreaking tool from CloudFlare is actually posed to be a game changer in the cybersecurity field, addressing one of the fundamental flaws in the Internet's architecture. It underscores Cloudflare's actually commitment to creating a secure and robust digital world.

Curtis Franklin (00:07:00):
Well, there's an interesting story out of Washington DC this week. Now it's not all unusual for a government agency to put new rules into place. It is unusual for the agency to require that those rules involve regular testing, but that's exactly what the T S A has done with its latest update to rules of some players in the fields of critical infrastructure. According to an article on dark reading this week, the T ss a updated rules for pipeline operators to include a requirement to enhance cyber resilience through implementation of A T S A approved cybersecurity implementation plan, or c i p along with testing of at least two objectives in the proposed plans. Now, while earlier versions of the policy require these processes and plans to be developed, owners and operators are now required to actually test the plans and evaluate how well they did.

(00:07:57):
The plans along with the testing results and plans for future tests must be submitted to the T S A annually. All of the existing requirements such as reporting significant cyber related incidents to css, a designating a point of contact and conducting a vulnerability assessment, which involves another bit of testing, will also remain in place. Now all of this security and testing took on added urgency after the Colonial Pipeline ransomware incident. That incident showed that an attacker didn't have to take down pumps and valves to bring a pipeline's operations to a crashing halt. It's important to note that the T S A says all pipeline operators already have a T S A approved cybersecurity implementation plan in place, and it's natural to assume that all will comply with the new requirements. It's interesting to think that there are a total of 16 industry

Brian Chee (00:08:54):
Segments within the definition of critical infrastructure used by the US government. As I've said before here on twt, if you're not sure whether or not your business is part of the critical infrastructure, it probably is. All these segments must have cips. It's gonna be interesting to see whether the requirement for testing is ultimately expanded to include all 16 TE segments. Well, this artist technical article sounds like something from, you know, ancient history, but it's not at t And Verizon's ancient lead cables have US lawmakers demanding action. Okay, so the bottom line on this ARS technical article is that several telcos still have legacy lead wrapped, lead shielded cables still in the ground. And that lead is slowly leaching into the groundwater since lead is soft and a terrific shielding material, it has been used throughout history with ancient Romans, slowly getting lead poisoning from water pipes made from lead <laugh>.

(00:10:06):
I should also point out that rubber wrapping around lead shielding lead shielded power cables is also slowly degrading and that quite a few large campuses and municipalities need to pay attention to the condition of their lead shielded power conductors. While working at the University of Hawaii, we had a caution to not work on certain inter building power feeds due to the lead content and that super costly replacements were waiting for capital improvement project funding from the state legislature. Well, my other caution is you may have a lead wrapped albatross when buying or leasing commercial properties, especially since I've never seen any sort of significant disclaimer laws on legacy power feeds. So perhaps when looking at a new property, you should consider asking the property agent when the building was put up and whether the underground cables are shielded. With lead,

Lou Maresca (00:11:08):
We are following up on a significant development in digital privacy. The recent seizure of AM mastodon server by the F B I and AM mastodon, for those that don't know is a decentralized social network as part of is known as the FEDI verse. This F B I action has sparked wide spread concern about user data privacy. Now, key details indicated that the F B I seized the server in an attempt to actually investigate a specific user's activities. But this action potentially exposed all users' data on that server to scrutiny. Such a broad sweep raises alarm bells on privacy rights and demands greater protection measures. From there now as a reaction, the Electronic Frontier Foundation or E F F is advising FEDI users and hosts on steps to protect their privacy. Now, recommendations include data minimization, avoiding data retention beyond necessity, and the use of encryption to protect user information.

(00:12:03):
The E F F is actually also emphasizing the need for service providers to resist overly broad government demands for data. This indicates an in incident and highlights the ongoing battle for digital privacy and underscores the urgent need for robust data protection measures in the ever expanding metaverse and the universe. Well, folks, that does it for the blips. Next up we have the amazing bites, but before we get to the bites, we do have to thank a really great sponsor of this weekend enterprise tech, and that's Miro. Now, quick question to you. Are you and your team still going from, you know, tab to tab tool to tool losing brilliant ideas and maybe even important information along the way? Well, with Miro, that doesn't need to happen anymore. That's right. Miro is the collaborative visual platform that brings all of your great work together, no matter where you are Now, whether you're working from home or in a hybrid workspace, everything comes together in one workspace and that is online.

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(00:14:45):
Well, folks, it's time for the bite. So it's an actually an unprecedented move. The Security Exchange Commission or s e c has actually laid down the gauntlet on corporate cybersecurity practices. Now, the regulatory body now mandates that publicly traded companies have corporate cybersecurity experts on their governance boards. Now, this significant shift is a response to increasing threat landscape and the escalating impact of cyber attacks on businesses and the wider economy. Now, this new requirement actually underscores a couple things, the importance of cybersecurity knowledge and decision making at the highest level and simply put the SEC's, ensuring boardroom decisions encompass those digital threats and vulnerabilities as well as strategies to mitigate them going forward. Now it's worth noting that these cybersecurity experts won't just be merely figureheads. The s e c stipulate, they must have real and practical cybersecurity experience. Now this aims and to foster a robust security culture where decisions are informed by deep understanding of those cybersecurity risks and the potential really for an impact on the company and operations and the shareholder buyer.

(00:15:52):
Now, critics however, express some concerns, of course, about finding qualified individuals to meet these new requirements, given that the ongoing shortage of cybersecurity professionals that are out there, the s e c on the other hand, sees this as an opportunity to nurture talent and elevate cybersecurity as a crucial business function. We'll see. Furthermore, companies failing to meet the SEC's mandate. We'll have to disclose the reason publicly. Ooh. And this move is expected to actually drive compliance and encourage transparency in corporate cybersecurity practices. Now this mandate is a game changer. I think it could be, and I'm not sure if it's going in the right direction, but we'll see. It reinforces the really, the integral role here of cybersecurity and how it really plays into business processes as cyber threats continue to really evolve as we talk about each and every week, such as measures from regulatory buy help keep companies and shareholders and consumers safe. We'll see. Well, I wanna bring my co-host and get their opinions here. I wanna start with you, Curtis. You obviously, you know, can you explain why the s e c is actually emphasizing the presence of cybersecurity experts on boards for publicly traded companies versus, you know, private companies?

Curtis Franklin (00:17:00):
Well, I think that what we have here is the recognition that a cyber risk has become a key component of the total risk matrix of an organization in the same way that financial risk would be. And that security is an important way to modulate that risk. So in the same way that it would be expected to have someone with financial expertise on the board of a, of a publicly held company, now they're, they are raising cybersecurity to that level. And that's a good thing. You know, we've been talking for a while here at TWT about the fact that cybersecurity is being raised to a board level concern instead of being something that, you know, the geeks down in the basement take care of, it's something that is a complete executive level issue. The thing that's interesting to me is trying to decide what makes for cybersecurity expertise.

(00:18:17):
For example, board members are often executives from other companies in non-competing areas. So if you are a public company in, you know, a manufacturing field, would having a board member who is the c e O of a security company be evidence of that expertise? We don't know. Would it require someone with a particular credential? I don't know. But I will say you know, I, I read the article that, that this conversation is based on, they listed a number of credentials that are available, you know, c certificates and credentials. Many of the credentials in cybersecurity are what I would call hands-on credentials. You know, things like certified as Ethical hacker is a hands-on kind of credential. Executive boards in corporations are absolutely not hands-on organizations. They do not deal with actually touching the levers and knobs of control within a company. That's the responsibility of the managers and the employees. And so if you're going to look at credentials, you know, I think something like a C I S S P would be far better than something like a certified ethical hacker. But all of this is the kind of thing that we're going to have to work out. And I suspect we're going to have to work it out with the help of attorneys as we go through the who exactly is qualified to fulfill this particular regulatory slot on the board.

Lou Maresca (00:20:15):
Agree. Well, I want to throw this to Chi because Bert, this is something out of a little bit of your history, right?

Brian Chee (00:20:21):
So I got a whole bunch of fatherly advice from my dad, you know, everybody does, right? But my dad happened to be in a, in an interesting position, the whole bit of air conditioning. Air conditioning is a very, very new technology. And he saw a lot of similarities in my industry and basically said the HVAC industry when it first got started was the wild, wild west. Anything goes. No certifications. Anyone could do it. You know, go, go, go to town. Well, as we started getting fires, like the infamous some of the original was pro coolants were propane based or petroleum based. And there, I can't remember the name of the nightclub there, there was a nightclub in Hollywood, I believe that had a huge fire. And it was because of the air conditioning system that drove a lot of regulatory people, you know, the legislation and so forth saying, Hey, you guys can't have this wild, wild west anymore.

(00:21:37):
You need to go and make some changes. Well, we started getting, you know, ashra and the very other things. You had to have mechanical engineering degrees in order to design these things. And as the post-war industrialization really took off the entire industry of cooling became much, much more regulated. I see cybersecurity following in the same footsteps. We've had this wild, wild west for a very, for a fairly long time. We've had a lot of people claiming to be cybersecurity experts and not really, and we're gonna start needing to have more experience, more knowledge going from the board to the production line. So that's the point I'm making. We're we're not doing something new. It's happening again. It's happened to several industries in the past. We're gonna start having to require some sort of certification or education. I think the academic world's gonna need to play catch up because a lot of it has just been very haphazard.

(00:22:54):
You know, it's what a professor thinks we need to have. And bringing this into our convers our future conversation with our guests, I think AI is actually going to drive a lot of this. You know, applying AI to human resource management is going to be a big, big step, especially making sure that the HR people don't miss certifications or miss connections. You know, when I was with Xerox in Honolulu, our HR was in California and a lot of things got missed. And I think I'm looking forward to asking our guest Ricardo is AI going to make a lot of changes? And, you know, how are we gonna apply it to how the world is changing?

Lou Maresca (00:23:52):
That's good points. Those good points. Now I wanna I want to one more question to to Curtis here because, you know, I think this is an interesting thing. Obviously, this, this whole thing promotes transparency and accountability. You know, and Brian brings up a good point. We're gonna need potentially have some new certifications. However, you know, we're talking about executives here. Number two, questions. How, how are we gonna, how are we gonna verify that the people that are on the board have the skills? How is the s e c gonna even do that? And it's not just a bunch of bloat on a resume that they've added, essentially in some, some, you know, some screen scraper went and pulled it and said, oh, we, this person's qualified. And, and number two, how is that going to ensure that, you know, the transparency that the companies need will be valid transparency. Like will won't just be some, again, just some like you know, bloat or some, you know, some kind of marketing ploy essentially, that they're, they're basically saying, Hey, we have a, a qualified person here. I, I guess I'm just missing maybe a point here that they're trying to do

Curtis Franklin (00:24:52):
The answer to the first point. How will they know is they have no clue? They haven't figured it out. I don't know that it, they're going to figure it out in the next two or three years. I think it will take some time to to get a handle on this. And again, we know being in the industry, there is a vast difference between qualification and credential. There are an awful lot. We, we know them. There are an awful lot of unqualified people who manage to get some credentials in the same way. There are some massively qualified people who, for various reasons, never go to the trouble of getting the certification. So the two, there's not a direct mapping of one to another. That is the sort of thing that regulators and lawyers hate to hear. So they really have no idea.

(00:25:51):
Now, on the second, how does having this individual, this mythical individual who is qualified, help with transparency? I think the, the, the goal is that you'll have someone on the board who is able to say during board discussions, Hey, we need to make sure we're following the regulations and following enterprise best practices, right? For cybersecurity, this is especially important when you get things like notification of a breach. You know, we have in a number of jurisdictions, and the s e C has some now some fairly short windows of time in which notification must be made to regulators and shareholders. If a material breach has happened and someone on the board who understands what that trip is, I mean, if you have three records stolen out of a hundred million, is that a reportable incident? Hard to say. If you have 3 million stolen, then yeah, it's gonna be reportable.

(00:27:05):
It's, it's the area in between where you need someone who really does know the regulations, and let's say here that a piece of the qualification for a board member is going to be not so much that they know how to protect B G P tables or how to make sure that your firewall rules are are appropriate. It is going to be someone who understands what the regulations around security are, what the regulations around privacy are, and how both of those are met through partnerships, through supplier relationships, and through the overall goals and strategic policies that the organization has in place.

Lou Maresca (00:28:01):
That's great. Great insights. Great insights. I do, I do wanna throw one more over to Brian because obviously he's a board member. And I'm just curious about this because obviously it, like, are we saying that maybe from now on organizations are gonna have to go find a CSO and they're gonna have to pay more and stick 'em on a board, basically, are they gonna have to have separate people on the board? And if that's the case, if those separate people, how much, how much influence are they gonna have on a CISO or A C S O or, or a C I O if they've already tried to secure the network? So they, I I feel like they're creating some hierarchical mess here, if that's the case.

Brian Chee (00:28:36):
Yeah, I'm, it's all about chain of command. It's going to be all about chain of command. And I think it's along the line of if you have a commanding officer that doesn't know anything, say about fighting a ship, say, say it's a ship commander and you're trying to tell the chief engineer to do this, that, or the other thing, and they have no idea that that would blow up the ship. You know, it's a bad analogy, but it's more along, I think it's more along the lines of the people that are steering the company. The big picture people, the board of directors need to be saying, we want to do something, we want a direction that makes sense. And having someone that knows about cybersecurity so that they ask reasonable things or steer the company in reasonable direction, I think is going to be a necessity.

(00:29:35):
You know, there's, you can draw whatever analogy you like, but I've seen lots and lots board of directors or commanding officers for that matter, make some really, really bad decisions because they don't have the background. And I think that's really what the SEC's really trying to get at. They're saying make sure you have people on your board that are knowledgeable enough so that they ask reasonable things. They, they steer the ship in a reasonable direction instead of steering it onto the rocks. So, because things like, you know, like you know, crypto jacking of your, your systems, if someone goes and invades your system and holds it for ransom, do you want your let, let's, let's call a spade. Say, do you want, do you wanna Barbie doll making the decisions decision since we have Barbie in the theaters now, do you want a Barbie doll that doesn't know anything about cybersecurity, making the decisions on paying a multimillion dollar ransom? Probably not. So I'm, I'm having a tough time with analogies today, but I think I got my point across, let's have people asking the right questions. Let's have people making intelligent decisions instead of just saying, well, that sounds good. I I heard that on, you know, late night tv,

Lou Maresca (00:31:07):
Right? Agreed. Agreed. Well, I think that does it for that. I think we've got the point across. I think we think, you know, obviously this could help, but in the same sense, I think they got a lot of work out of them. Well, folks that does it for the bites. Next up we have our amazing guests, but before we get to our guests, we do have to thank another great sponsor of this weekend Enterprise tech, and that's Cisco Meraki, the experts in cloud-based networking for hybrid work. Now, whether you're employees at home or working from home or at even in the cabin in the mountains, or a lounge chair at the beach, a cloud managed network provides the same exceptional work experience no matter where there are. Now, you may as well roll out the welcome app because hybrid work is really here to stay.

(00:31:47):
We know that hybrid work works best in the cloud and has its perks for both employees and even leaders. And workers can move faster and they can deliver better results. And with cloud managed network, while leaders can actually automate and distributed operations, build more sustainable workspaces and proactively protect that network. Now, an I D G marketplace research report conducted for Meraki highlights top tier opportunities in supporting hybrid work here. This hybrid work is a priority for 78% of C-suite executives. Leaders want to actually drive collaboration forward while staying on top of or boosting productivity and security. Hybrid work is also actually has its challenges. The I D G report raises the red flag about security, noting that 48% of leaders report cybersecurity threats as a primary obstacle to improving workspace and workforce experiences always on security monitoring is part of what makes the cloud management network so awesome.

(00:32:45):
It can use apps from Meraki's vast ecosystem of partners, actually turnkey solutions built to work seamlessly with Meraki cloud platform for asset tracking, location analytics, and a lot more. In fact, they can gather insights on how people use their workspaces. Now, in a smart space, environmental sensors can track activity and occupancy levels to stay on top of cleanliness, reserve workspaces based on vacancy and employee profiles, also called hot desking, which allows employees to quickly scout out a place. So work locations and restricted environments can be booked in advance and include time-based door access. There's also mobile device man management, M D M, and the integrating devices and systems allow it to actually manage and update and troubleshoot company owned devices. Even when the device and employee in a remote location turn any space into a place of productivity, empower your organization with the same exceptional experience no matter where they work. With Meraki and the Cisco suite of technology, learn how your organization can make hybrid work, work, visit a meraki.cisco.com/twit and we thank Meraki for their support of this week and enterprise tech. Well. Well, folks, it's my favorite part of the show. We actually get to bring in a guest to drop some knowledge on the TWI riot. Today we have Ricardo Reyes, he's chief science officer and co-founder of Verite. Welcome to the show, Ricardo.

Ricardo Michel Reyes (00:34:08):
Hey guys. Thank you. Nice to meet you.

Lou Maresca (00:34:10):
Nice to meet you as well. Now our audience is really a large spectrum of experiences. We have people who just entry level, just beginning all the way up to the really experienced CSOs and CTOs and that kind of thing, and they love to hear people's origin stories and their journey through tech. Can you take us through a journey to that, to can you take us through, do that again? Can you take us through a journey to, through tech and actually what brought you to Aday?

Ricardo Michel Reyes (00:34:34):
Sure. so I've been programming since 2001. So pretty much since the internet was just barely after the.com bubble and like figuring out whether that's gonna happen. I come from Mexico, so we got the.com bubble like 10 years later. So when I was getting started, people were just finding out why they should have a website and what was the internet. And I would sell websites to anyone who let themselves to be sold the website. Like I sold to local jeans, local stores try to get people to there. There was no PayPal, there was no infrastructure for payments. So everything had to be still like, okay, you pay me in the bank, then take a photo, then send me the photo, and then I make your suspicion go valid. Like of course some of the audience knows this wild, wild west before there was any kind of payment infrastructure on the internet.

(00:35:33):
But then I got started with ai. I was studying med school actually, I, I didn't plan to be an AI person at all. I, I started med med school actually. And how I got into artificial intelligence was trying to figure out how to put people processes on their bags. So a lot of people from all the work we all have to do, sit in a chair looking like a shrimp every day. People get their, their bones and their spinal cords and, and you know, like their backbones really hurt and herniated. So a big problem for adult people is like all of these, these replacements. So I got started on AI on how to calculate the best these replacements because this is not simple software, like how do you calculate, like how is a backbone going to behave over gravity and while walking and while jumping?

(00:36:33):
So then that's how I discovered ai that this wasn't a simple program to write, like just an algorithm one after the other. But you had to actually have some observations of columns and then try to put that into software. So this was in 2011 and since then I've been just working in fashion, in photography in construction, in agriculture, in like satellite imaging. And then I met my current business partner, Alejandro, who is from Spain. And he's a psychologist and also an engineer. So we were just discussing like what was next. It was the, the biggest impact we could have in the current market four years ago. And we figure out that behind everything, there's always people like no matter what industry you're in, no matter how old are you, no matter your profession, you always have to, to interact and handle people. And the most difficult part to building a business at this from a perspective is always people like you can have the best idea, you can have all the money in the world, but you don't have the right people or you dunno how to manage them or how to carry them to your goal. They're nothing. So then we got into the people business,

Lou Maresca (00:38:01):
Right? Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I think we should definitely get into it. Now, obviously the pandemic itself has pretty much turned everything upside down. What, what are you seeing some of the pressing challenges organizations are really facing today when it comes to, whether it's employee wellbeing or even maybe productivity?

Ricardo Michel Reyes (00:38:19):
Not everyone knows how to make friends. Unlike, at least in an office, you have your like a geographical excuse to make friends or a timely basis excuse or like a project. But then when you are just hiring like crazy, let's say you're a startup, you raised a series A or, or sit round, you start hiring people just like how do you introduce people to each other? So they start to collaborate. How do you keep relationships between departments that are not based on projects? Because if a relationship is based on projects, you always have some kind of either collaboration or competition. And if it's collaboration, then you're on a good track because then these people will try to understand each other and figure out the way together. But when you have teams that naturally compete with each other, let's say for example, technology versus product or product versus business or this kind of like departments that have no other way but to they have a limiting constraint, either be time, either be budget, so they have always tension.

(00:39:28):
It's very hard to make people understand each other and figure out each other outside of the work context. So then yeah, I think that's the, that that's like the main we for example, do get togethers every three months for people to know each other in a more relaxed setting, right? But of course we are a 50 people company. We can still handle that. But let's say a 10,000 people company, like how do you even do that? You know, like, and you, you have these multinational companies where you are a tiny person in one department of a hundred departments and you have to work with so many different people from so many different places. So just the natural development of human relationships has gotten more artificial and you have to force it a little bit more. And forced relationships are not as good as relationships because you actually are naturally attracted to work people. So yeah, I think that's the main, the main company.

Lou Maresca (00:40:39):
I mean, I definitely agree that linking people together, especially with the remote work and people in both onsite offsite people, parts of hybrid work, that kind of thing, it, I definitely think it's one of the big challenges of organizations today, and it does cause a lot of people working harder than they necessarily need to. And maybe even being less productive 'cause you're just not connected to people or, or have a buddy on another team or another, or another, you know, partner team or that kinda thing to help out. What do you, what do you think that are some of the common strategies that some companies today are actually doing to, to tackle some of that?

Ricardo Michel Reyes (00:41:12):
Yeah, so this situation directly impacts engagement, right? Like a lot of people do engagement service, have engagement software. One of our main metrics in our software is engagement. And if you wanna keep retention high, you need to keep engagement high because historically from my own experience and from what we've seen in the data, a lot of people maybe don't like their job, but they like their teammates and they like their, their boss and they stay, or maybe they like the work, but then they have an awful team and then they leave to whoever is gonna be in the same industry, but better opportunity to like right, thrive in the social sphere. So like for some people, not even if they're paying you a million euros per year can think of staying on a team where they're being treated badly and where they go to, to their office feeling bad or where they don't know anyone.

(00:42:18):
Especially when you're dealing, for example, with northern countries like Canada or Germany or Sweden, like where like people are used to being isolated. That's true. It's, it's probably easier. But if, if you go to a more connected country, let's say like Spain or like Italy or like France, I think those countries are the ones having the hardest time because these people are used to all the time hanging to have peers hanging to have some lunch. And now there's not this natural context to, to connect with your coworkers. So then it's just some email or some slack username or some like people you tag somewhere, but you can't even put face to them, so, right. Yeah, I think engagement is having a very hard time since the covid.

Lou Maresca (00:43:15):
So a lot of people, obviously, you know, they interact, especially when they're remote, they interact in specific ways, whether they're using teams or Zoom or Slack or whatnot. So they have their, their communication channels for, you know, persistent chat. They have, they're using video, they're using email. So there's lots of communication channels that potentially have some signals to how they are doing whether they're being productive or not, or whether they are, you know, whether they are causing burnout. However, there are some, I would say hidden signals that you don't necessarily get. How, what kind of data would you use from a person, whether, unless it's a face-to-face kind of like honest conversation about how things are going, like what, what kind of information and signals are you using to potentially, you know, identify these types of things.

Ricardo Michel Reyes (00:44:05):
Yeah, that's how we got started in our product. Because we realized that, for example, when you run service one is getting people to answer the service, which is already a hard time

Lou Maresca (00:44:18):
Or honestly, like not only answer, but answer honestly, right? <Laugh>.

Ricardo Michel Reyes (00:44:24):
That that's one like getting people to answer, then getting people to answer honestly, like you <laugh> then getting the right questions, asking in a way that you don't bias people to answer or think you want them to answer something specific. So we realized that there was a lot to do with service. And then there's this phrase that someone told me at some point of my life, and I will never forget that the worst thing you can do is to optimize something that shouldn't be there in the first place, right? Like, you can find a thousand ways to do service, but then what if you don't do service at all? Like, what, what did you just remove the survey factor and just try to figure out another way to do it? So then we, we thought, okay, people text each other all the time, like so then maybe by analyzing this text we could figure out more about how they naturally interact.

(00:45:20):
And of course people always say like, oh, but what about my privacy? Right? Like what about like, you big brother, you're listening to me, you're like trying to figure out all of what I do. So we've been tackling that a lot of times as to make people understand that we don't wanna listen to anyone's life, we just want to provide some kind of value to people as to create better engagement. So we've tried everything since just being inside of Slack inside of teams trying to provide value also to the employee inside of teams. Try to anonymize everything, try to make it that you have to have a department of more than three people to see anyone's metrics. So we think there's a lot of value in just the natural communication of people in all of their communication channels, but let it be Slack, email, zoom teams, whatever. But we're still trying to figure out how to deal with people understanding that is not about trying to mess with their privacy, but rather like to try to channel all that they say into something that provides value to everyone. So I think that's the main question we have. And I think anyone who wants to get into the so less employee experience analysis software, the, the first that figures out how to do this is the one that's gonna be a unicorn. And that's what we're trying to.

Lou Maresca (00:46:57):
And one more question. I do wanna bring my co-host back in. Now, obviously there's a coal, we talk a lot about privacy on this, this show, and I do know that there's lots of services around there. In fact, I've interacted with Glint before. It's an AI empowered employee engagement platform and it can sometimes raise some eyebrows, it can, you know, list like somebody's listening or an AI is listening to what I'm saying, or my chat messages or my emails all to just really determine how I'm feeling. So it's almost as if, you know, I kind of think of the movie Gattica. Somebody's gonna come in and just kind of create their own narrative so that, so that they, you know, so they don't, they can basically hide behind their own narratives so they don't have to let the AI know exactly how they are 'cause they know it's there. So I guess the question to you is, you know, how companies and organizations really responded to this type of technology because of the fact of, you know, kind of like Big Brother watching and determining how they feel?

Ricardo Michel Reyes (00:47:55):
Yeah, it's all about value. Like I think like we interact with Chat GT for example, every day and you tell them a lot of things and even copy paste code or copy paste emails or copy paste a lot of things just to have something done. But the value you get from it is worth enough as due to risk anything and don't even think about what you're copy pasting into it. That's what we are trying to figure out, like what's the value we can provide towards engagement towards burnout that can make people forget that we are listening to their messages. Because it is not like we are actually listening anything. Like that's an AI doing it, right? Like, I don't know what, what our users do. They're isolated into their own Amazon web services account. Like I, I don't even have access to their messages, like I don't know what they're doing, right? But it's a feeling a, as anything human, what matters is the, the feeling that people get about this kind of technology. So I think that's the biggest challenge on the employee experience sector. Like how do people feel about AI being applied to knowing how they feel,

Lou Maresca (00:49:13):
Right? Right. Absolutely. Well, when we come back, we do wanna talk more with Ricardo about AI for HR and bring my CO back in as well. But before we do, we do thank, wanna thank another great sponsor of this week, enterprise tech, and that's Collide. Collide is a device trust solution for companies with Okta and they ensure that if a device isn't trusted or even secure, it can't log into your cloud applications. Now if you work in a security or IT or your company has Okta, this message is really for you. Have you noticed that in the past few years? The majority of data breaches are really hacks you read about and have something in common? Well, it's employees. That's right. Sometimes an employee's device gets hacked because in an unpatched software, oss and sometimes employee leaves sensitive data and really in an unsecured place.

(00:49:59):
And it seems like every day a hacker breaks into or using credentials, they fish from an employee. And the problem here isn't your end users, it's the solutions that are supposed to prevent these breaches, right? But it really doesn't have to be this way. Imagine a world where only secure devices can access your cloud apps. Now in this world, phished credentials are useless to hackers and you can manage every oss, including Linux, all from a single dashboard. Best of all, you can get employees to fix their own device security issues without creating more work for your IT team. Now the good news is you don't have to imagine this world, you can just start using collide, visit collide.com/twit to book an on demand demo today and see how it works for yourself. That's k O L i.com/twt and we thank collide for their support of this week in enterprise tech. Well, folks, we've been talking with Ricardo Reyes, he's the chief science officer of Erudite and we've talked a lot about AI and just how it can really help and assist organizations, especially uncovering people's burnout and productivity. But I do wanna bring my co-host Beckett 'cause I'm sure they have some thoughts and questions here as well. Curtis, I'll throw it to you first.

Curtis Franklin (00:51:13):
I appreciate it, Ricardo. It's, it's been great listening to the conversation so far. One of the things I wanna ask about, you know, HR is a fairly broad topic. It covers many different aspects of the relationship between the company and the employee. And last week when I was at the Splunk conference, they talked about in their mind the importance of having AI that is focused, that is a as they put it, has domain expertise. How, how important do you think that is? You know, is it better for a company to think about having multiple AI instances each one devoted to a particular topic rather than one giant enterprise AI that will, will do everything?

Ricardo Michel Reyes (00:52:16):
I love this topic <laugh> because a lot of people have been focusing a lot on LLMs, like large language models. And that's heartbreaking because most of the advance of the generative AI revolution is about reinforcement learning from human feedback. Like this algorithm that, so how G P T or any other natural language processing model, natural language processing like LAMA or these models are been trained is to create something that is satisfying for humans, right? That's, that's the metric. Like what they're measuring is, is this text that I'm producing satisfying for humans doesn't mean if it's true, it doesn't mean if it's accurate. It doesn't mean if it's logic. It's just like, is it satisfying? Can, can I trick a human into saying this is awesome text, right? And then what most models do is to memorize the information, like just to this, this billion parameters models we hear every day.

(00:53:22):
What they're just doing is using 80% of these billion parameters to memorize the information. And then when you input some kind of prompt, they go through all these million things and then give you like a mixture of everything that came in between district can also be achieved with a vector database or with a graph database with a lot less parameters. The problem is that that wouldn't be business for big tech. Like that wouldn't be business for the people trying to sell GPUs. So all these Marvel is open sourcing everything that is up than 7 billion. Some of us selling GPUs, like that's, that's a business of AI nowadays is like, how can I get people to use more Microsoft Azure more Google Cloud? And what Open Air has been doing marvelously is that all the models are seven or 13 B can run in a G PT that is cheaper than chat G P T.

(00:54:21):
But as soon as you get more than one G P U charge, G P T is just cheaper than any other solution you can deploy to achieve the same accuracy. So eventually your C T O just figures out that they should just use open AI platform directly. So then that's, that's one of the most brilliant things I've seen in my life. Anyone do, like Microsoft strategy is just brilliant because they never lose money. Like if, if anyone wants to run any, anyone anything, one G P U, they use Azure. If anything gets more expensive and their C T O is not as educated, they will still get money from UPS from running Falcon or from running anything big. And then if they figure out it's cheaper to use chat pt, they get money through open ai. So they never lose money. It's, it's, it's, it's amazing how they are able to do. So

Curtis Franklin (00:55:16):
Well, I, I wanted to to probe a little bit at one of the things you said, because you're right, we've all been talking since November of last year about generative ai, large language models, but there are far, far more different types of AI engines out there, some of which we've been using, I mean, neural networks and other things that we've been using for years. As you look at the AI landscape, do you see generative ai, large language models just taking over? Or do you think there's still a role for these other types of AI for doing things like automating processes rather than providing information to human beings?

Ricardo Michel Reyes (00:56:04):
It's similar to the question should programmers run the world or do we still need lawyers and architects and artists like <laugh>? It's kind of the same kind of question, right? Like of course you need some mixture of experts, right? That, that's normally how this architecture is called in, in ai, right? Like because the models are optimizing for something, there's this, there's some kind of loss function, there's some kind of optimization of some metric they're trying to do whatever data that you give them. So there's no jack of all trades, just like there's no jack of all trades in humans, right? And if you want a jack of all trades, just as in humans, it would have to be a genius, right? So you'll have to have a genius model that is just massive. But memory doesn't equate function as the, and the more parameters you have, the harder is to connect new ideas or to connect new information because the distance between the knowledge is so wide that just the architecture of the model doesn't let connect.

(00:57:12):
Like there's, it's, it's so far away the knowledge that there's no way this model is going be able to collapse it into a new knowledge, into a new creation, into a new synthesis of the original signal, which is what humans do. So nice, like the, the magic of humans is that we receive so much input and compress it so good. And then our brains are so small <laugh> that the ideas are so close that we're able to do marvelous things because everything is all the time creating fusion. And, and then as the models go bigger, the harder it is for them to synthesize new knowledge. They can of course replicate a lot of knowledge, but they are not gonna create anything interesting.

Brian Chee (00:58:04):
Well, Ricardo, I wanna ask about triggers. Human resources has, you know, all kinds of ramifications. I'm gonna bring up one of the darker aspects. I used to work at Xerox in Honolulu, and the human resource department got moved from Honolulu to San Francisco and they missed a growing problem that ended up in a person going crazy and killing seven of my coworkers. So that's kind of a dark way of looking at it. But do you think AI's going to help us when we have this turnover in the HR world? You know, the personnel that run the hrs, they're gonna turn over and there's gonna be gaps in the training gaps, you know, people miss things. Do you think AI is going to help us avoid those gaps and avoid danger signs? You know, the flags that should be seen, the red flags waving in the wind,

Ricardo Michel Reyes (00:59:10):
It's all about attention. Like what do we pay attention to, right? So then, like we all have, like, that's the magic and the marvelous thing about the internet. Like, you could learn anything. Like if you decide I wanna learn quantum physics, you can go and and just do it. It will take you a different amount of time. Probably if you have an expert, you're gonna find out the path to knowing what you need to know faster than if you just stumble into things and try to figure out the path yourself. But then it depends on what you pay attention to. Like all the resources are are there. And like we have so many open source models in things like hogging face for example. Like there's, there's like, you could build anything by combining J G P T with some expert with all of what is in Juto and all the tutorials that are in the internet with all of the open source models.

(01:00:04):
The problem is like, what is the most important problem to you today? And how much money do you have? You know, and how much time do you have? So giving, how much money and time do you have? What do you wanna pay attention to? And I think that's a question about artificial intelligence, like who has the money, who has the time, and what are we paying attention to? So if anyone is willing to pay attention, money, and time to this problem, I think we could solve it. But like for example, we have, we're now have closed our series A and we are a group of 50 people putting attention every day to making people's lives better in the human resources industry. And we have things like like gender equality, like racial equality, like burnout, engagement turnover, workload coping. Like we have a lot of metrics that we try to pay, pay attention to.

(01:01:05):
But there, there are some problems that are very complex. So then we might also need at some point have an eighth of someone who specializes further away into like psychiatry or psychology. And then we can maybe connect through an a p I or something and say like, Hey, I'm an HR software. I know my limits, I know what I'm good at. I think this person is outside of my professional scope. And you person who has passed through hipaa, you person who has passed through all the regulations for health software, maybe you should take this person in. You know, and I'm willing to put from my insurance, I'm willing to put whatever I need to put so you can now take it on. And you are an expert and are regulated and can do better than me. Here, here it is, this person, you know, because I don't think, like we are an HR software, we, we can only solve so much. And the health industry is, it's a very complicated industry. There's so much regulation, there's so much responsibility. And we are AI people. So I, I, I, I, I just wanna make people have a better world life experience. And it's important for us also to know where are we not doctors, and just say like, Hey Doctor, I need your help. You know, yeah. Well,

Brian Chee (01:02:37):
And it also comes down to, you know, you're not gonna have HR people experts in everything, right? So I'm gonna ask the, my last question that's, is erudite paying attention, is, are you giving attention to cross National Boundaries, HR issues? So, like, you know, my favorite example is, I'm gonna poke a finger at Curtis. He works for a UK company, so he's got that hr, but he lives in the United States. That's gotta be a headache for HR people. And I was just wondering, does Erudite give attention to things like that?

Ricardo Michel Reyes (01:03:17):
I mean, I'm in LAIA right now. Most of my team is sit there in San Francisco or in several cities of Spain and once in France. Like, people in <inaudible> are everywhere in the world. So we need to, by design, have international HR strategy, right? And you have to be aware to all the cultural differences between people, like how much people need to talk to each other, how much people need attention, how much people need you to be like, very straight to the point, how much people need you to be like, more polite, how much people need you to be like kind how more people don't like you going through the bushes and not like, you know, you need to like personalize your strategy to your whoever you're managing. And that's also what we're trying to do. Like we, we have this feature, new feature that's not still in production, but users will have in the next three months that is let's say a pilot for hr, right?

(01:04:27):
Like now everyone has some G P T for their company. Like Stack Overflow just did it I think today or yesterday or something after G PT has been stealing their money for, from all the questions I, I remember since I started programming, everyone looked their responses to any program in life, in code, in Stack Overflow and now everyone looks at In Charge gt. So now they made their copilot for Stack Overflow. We're doing the same, like, we have our copilot for hr and then we're trying to handle all of these complex, multi-variable multi-country questions through the compile.

Lou Maresca (01:05:08):
Right, right. Well, Ricardo, thank you so much for being here. Obviously with great shows, time flies. So I, you know, I do wanna give you a chance, really at the end here to, to tell a little folks at home a little bit more about erudite, where they can get started, how organizations can get in touch with you, that kind of thing.

Ricardo Michel Reyes (01:05:25):
Yeah. we have our website, aod ai. We're on Instagram, we're on TikTok. But you can just google a AI and you'll find everything of us.

Lou Maresca (01:05:37):
Fantastic. Thanks again for being here. Well, folks, you have done it again. You sat through another hour of the Besting Enterprise Podcast in the universe, so definitely tune your podcast Toay. I wanna thank everyone who makes this show possible, especially to my amazing co-host, t the Ryan, Mr. Brian Chi, who's great to have back on. Can you tell the folks at home, Bryan, where can people find you or can they get in touch with you? And what's coming up in this week?

Brian Chee (01:06:00):
Right now, I'm not, I'm just mis in miserable <laugh>. This covid is horrible, horrible. But when I'm actually awake and doing something, I'm throwing a lot onto Twitter. I'm, I'm still a Twitter person, even though I think it's gonna be called X pretty soon. Who knows? Anyway I'm a E D V N E T L A B advance net Lab on Twitter. But you are also welcome to throw email. So if you've got a show suggestion or a topic suggestion, please feel free to email me. I'm seabert spelled C H E E B e R t at twit tv. You're also welcome to throw email at twt at twit tv and that'll hit all the hosts. We'd love to hear from you. And I'm gonna mute myself now.

Lou Maresca (01:06:54):
Thank you, Bert. Well, we also have to thank our mayor, Mr. Curtis Franklin. Curtis, what about you? We know you're traveling. Black hat's coming up. What's going on for you?

Curtis Franklin (01:07:03):
Black hat is coming up. And in the meantime, I've got another piece that will be coming out on omnia.com. I'll be pointing to that from probably LinkedIn as well. And in something that's a little bit unusual, the piece that I'm getting ready to write, which is oddly enough going to be on ai will be available to everyone on the Omnia site, not just our subscribers. So I'll point to that, let people know when it's out. Talking about the importance of having policies in place for AI because your employees are using them even if you don't have a policy in place. So it, it's better to get ahead of that if you can. And like I said, in the meantime, I'm getting ready for Black Cat and Defcon. I've already had a couple of quiet listeners be in touch saying they'd love to meet up with me, even if briefly out in Las Vegas. Happy to do that. They can follow me and send me direct messages on, I suppose it's X now KG four G w a, I'm on Mastodon kg four GWA at Mastodon kg four gwa.at mastodon.sdf.org. Getting that particular address still trips me up also on LinkedIn at Curtis Franklin. So feel free to hit me up on any of those. Always happy to hear from our listeners.

Lou Maresca (01:08:31):
Thank you, Curtis. Well, we also have to thank EU as well. You're the person who drops the niche every week to watch until listen to our show to get your enterprise goodness. We wanna make it easy for you to listen and catch up on your enterprise and IT news. So go to our show page right now, TWIT tv slash twit. You'll find all the amazing back episodes. Of course we have the show notes, the cot information, the guest information. Of course those links of the stories that we do during the show. But more importantly, right there next to those videos. There you go. You get those helpful. Subscribe and download links and you support the show. Get your audio version, your video version of your choice. Go ahead and subscribe. Anyone, anyone, your podcast applications out there 'cause we're on all of them. Subscribing to the show definitely helps us support the show.

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Now, after you subscribe, definitely impress your family members, your coworkers, your friends with the Gift of Twia. 'cause We, we talk a lot about some fun tech topics on this show, and I guarantee they find it fun and interesting as well. Keep it on top of the enterprise and IT news. So definitely join with, have share with them as well. But after you subscribe, we also do this show live. That's right, we're doing a live right now. Tweet tv slash I'm sorry, live tv. Check out that website 'cause that's where all the streams are at. You come see all the behind the scenes, how the pizza's made, all the banter and all before and after the show. So definitely check out the live stream if you're gonna watch the show live. We also have an infamous IRC channel as well. The twit live channel. You can get to it by just going to IRC dot twit tv and they'll pop you right in to the twit Live channels.

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We have lots of great characters in there. Of course, they keep us on our toes and not only that, they keep us laughing throughout the week. So thank you guys for, for being there and being part of that movement. Now, if you want to contact me, definitely hit me up. I, I'm on Twitter, twitter.com/lu. There you can post direct messages, whatever show, show concepts, show ideas, you wanna talk tech, you wanna talk about cybersecurity, whatever you wanna talk about. I'm, I'm big on service design and architecture. I love that. So definitely hit me up on there. Of course, I'm on LinkedIn as well, Louis Meca on LinkedIn. I do a lot of posting on there, a lot of channels, a lot of conversations, even some live stuff on there. So definitely check out LinkedIn. And of course I'm on mass as well. Lou, I'm at TWI Social.

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You can definitely hit me up as there as well. Now if you wanna know what I do during my normal work week at Microsoft, you can check out developers.microsoft.com/office. There it is. It's the latest greatest ways for you to customize your office experience to make it more productive for you. And of course, if you have Microsoft 365 and you pop open Excel, check out that automate tab. That's right. It's the new tab in there and it really helps you automate your processes and your ANA analysises within Excel. And of course it generates scripts for you, which you can automate on power automate. You can create different connectors, different services, and integrate data. It's really a lot of fun and it really makes it more powerful for you. So definitely check that out. I wanna thank everyone who makes this show possible, especially to Leo and Lisa.

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They continue to support this weekend enterprise tech each and every week, and we can do the show without them. So thank you for all their support over the years. And of course, thank you to all the engineers and staff at twit. They make it possible for us. Of course. Thank you to Mr. Brian Chi one more time. He's not only our co-host, but he's also our tireless producer. He does all the show bookings and the plannings for the show. And of course we couldn't do the show without him. Thank you Bert, for all your support. Of course, before we sign out, we have to thank our editor for today because they are gonna make us look good after the fact. So thank you for cutting out all my mistakes and of course, thank you to our TDS for today. Mr. Victor. Victor, it's always great seeing you. Any any special events come up this week for, for twit?

Victor (01:13:24):
I was just gonna mention the one about you, but <laugh>, it's not on our on our secret on our Discord Club Twit events, the on our Discord. It shows some of our upcoming events like and has a live photo critique on August 4th.

Lou Maresca (01:13:42):
I'm looking for the vet. Yeah,

Victor (01:13:43):
I think I'm gonna submit something there and oh, nice. Well, maybe, I don't know.

Lou Maresca (01:13:49):
<Laugh>, is he gonna have to be nice? Hopefully he is not. Hopefully he's still not nice.

Victor (01:13:52):
No, he's, no, he's still <laugh>. He still wouldn't be, he's not obvious to, but yeah. And then there there's one that we're all looking forward to a fireside chat with Daniel Suarez and Hugh Howie. Two great authors. So that's gonna be in September, I believe. So fantastic look, yeah, look out for that.

Lou Maresca (01:14:16):
Looking forward to those.

Victor (01:14:17):
I have to go to this shot because it has that cold Dutch tilt like in the old Batman show. So

Lou Maresca (01:14:23):
<Laugh>, I'm very cool. Very cool. Thanks Victor. I appreciate it. Thanks for being here. Thank, thank you for support and I'm Lewis Reca just reminding you, if you wanna know what's going on in the enterprise, just keep TWIET