Tech News Weekly Episode 288 Transcript
Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.
Coming up next on Tech News Weekly. It's me, Jason Howell sitting over here, Micah Sergeant sitting over there and virtual people sitting in the TV. Behind us, we've got Kyle Wayne's, c e o of i Fixit joining us to talk about how right to repair bills are actually progressing a lot right now throughout the us Dan Warren from Six Colors gives an extensive preview of Apples WW d c conference that happens next week. By the way, Reddit's API apocalypse having real world consequences for third party developers. And meta announced just this morning, the new Meta Quests three, all that more coming up next pod podcasts you love from people you trust.
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This is Tech News Weekly episode 288, recorded Thursday, June 1st, 2023. This episode of Tech News Weekly is brought to you by Dell Client Solutions devices orchestrated by the experts at cdw, which deliver a more personalized user experience with adaptive AI-based software that boosts collaboration. Wherever your team works, learn more at cdw.com/dell client and by bit Warden, get the password manager that offers a robust and cost effective solution that drastically increases your chances of staying safe online. Get started with a free trial of a teams or enterprise plan, or get started for free across all devices as an individual user at bit warden.com/twit. Hello and welcome to Tech News Weekly, the show where every week we talk to and about the people making and breaking the tech news. I am one of your hosts, Micah, Sergeant, and all the way over here on the other side of the table.
I am the other host, <laugh>. There he is. You can squint. You'll see me. Jason, how good to see you Micah, good to see you. Good to have back. Kyle Weens from, I fix it because we've got a lot to talk about in this first interview. With Right to Repair any, anytime there's progress made in the right to repair front. I dunno, it's kinda like, it's kinda like one of those topics that I, that I clue into and I see it and I'm like, okay, great. Because it's been so, such a long time coming and I, Fixit of course has been fighting the fight. Kyle, you've been super involved with that. So Kyle, c e o of I, Fixit, welcome to the show. It's great to have you back. Thanks for having me on. This is a good moment to have this conversation.
Absolutely. And actually I should, I should admit fully that one of our engineers here, Burke had put into our company Slack, the the article from January the about New York's Right to Repair Bill. And when I first saw that, I was like, okay, you know, it was like, I was reminded of it and I was like, oh, whoa, we, we need to talk about this more. And then kind of in the scope of like reaching out to you guys to bring Sam on gold Heart, who, who wrote that article initially then, you know, realized that there was other big news actually happening right now, not just back in January, but you know, Minnesota, California. So we'll talk about all that in the, in the next 10 to 12 minutes. But let's start with New York. Talk a little bit about the legislation in that state. Cause that seems to be kinda like the kicking off point for what we're seeing in other states right now. Setting kind of those wheels in motion. Tell us a little bit about that.
Kyle Wiens (00:03:18):
Right, so New York is the first broad consumer electronics right to repair law that's passed. The governor signed it into law at the end of last year. It goes into effect at the beginning of next year. And it covers pretty much all, all the consumer devices in your life with one catch. Anything that you buy or that is made after July 1st of this year, it's not retroactive. But what it says is that manufacturers have to make available the same parts tools and information to you that they do to their authorized repair network. So if Apple has a fancy tool they're using in the, in at the Genius Bar, they need to make that available to the rest of us.
That is fantastic. I love how Sam put it in her writeup in January just about anything with a price tag containing a chip, which actually makes it sound like so broad and everything. But like you said, there is, there is a, you know, that significant hole I is the hole that it doesn't apply retroactively or is there, are there other elements of this New York bill that were lacking in your opinion?
Kyle Wiens (00:04:15):
Yeah, the, the governor added two key loopholes. One was the July 1st limitation that it didn't go retroactive, which is frustrating because of course we want the right to repair the stuff we already own, not the stuff we're gonna buy next, but it helps. And then the, the price tag is actually key because by saying that it had to have a price tag, it cut out all of the enterprise products that you might buy that the school might buy if they have to negotiate a Cisco contract or that kind of thing. So those, those were two major exclusions of the New York bill that we focused immediately after that to work on fixing.
Yeah, yeah, indeed. Now we've got, you know, kind of the more current news that's happening. First of all just last week, Minnesota passed its own right to repair law that actually goes even further than what the New York bill did. So tell us a little bit about what made you happy when you saw what's going on in Minnesota.
Kyle Wiens (00:05:06):
Yeah, so I mean, we were intimately involved. Ethics has been leading the way with all this. I was intimately involved in negotiations with the governor in New York and then, and then working behind the scenes in Minnesota to get this bill done. And the Minnesota law is much more expansive than the New York law. It includes all products, not just products for the that are sold at retail. And it also goes retroactive back to 2012,
Kyle Wiens (00:05:29):
Or sorry, 2020. No, not 20 12, 20. It goes back three years. 2021. It goes back to the iPhone 12 <laugh>. Okay. It it's the iPhone 12, which was introduced tail end of I think December, 2020. That's when they went on sale, no, November this end. And so January 1st, 2020 is, is the employee
Kind of the cutoff. Okay. Yeah. And so that basically means that if I live in Minnesota and I've bought one of those older devices, regardless of the fact that this is a bill that's happening now, not then it's still covered. Like what, what is the responsibility then that lands on the side of say Apple? If I have one of those older devices? What, what exactly do they need to provide?
Kyle Wiens (00:06:09):
Yeah, so the manufacturer needs to make available, again, it's the same parts, tools and information that they make available to their network. So what Apple has done with their independent repair program and now starting to sell parts to consumers, that's exactly what they need to provide. But Apple's only doing that for, for some of their products and they're not doing it for everything. So, for example, you can't get a battery from an iPad from Apple right now. They're going to have to start doing that. Samsung has partnered with us. We're, we're selling parts and tools for some Samsung products, but not enough that we're gonna have to expand that program in order to help Samsung comply with the upcoming lot.
Hmm. Okay. Now there is a part of this Minnesota bill that you have <laugh> have been vocal about. Cuz some of the articles I read were like, you know, I fixed it. C e o Colleen. So you've been busy talking about some of this stuff. I, I mean, and which makes sense. You guys are really really active when it comes to to, you know, putting, putting kind of your weight of the company behind, behind this progress. But what is it about the Minnesota bill that you did not like to see? Like how is, how is that impactful in the state?
Kyle Wiens (00:07:14):
Yeah, so the, the, the one carve out is in the Minnesota bill is it's, there was an exemption around cybersecurity products. So products that are, that are really only designed for using cybersecurity applications. That was a loophole that was added at the last minute. I don't think it's too bad of a loophole, but, but it's definitely something to watch out for. It also doesn't apply to ag products, but Colorado past the tractor right. Repair law, which, which should help with that. But broadly speaking, you know, we're, we're, we're happy with it. I, oh, there, there's one other exclusion that made it into the midst of the bill that is annoying. We've been, we've been trying to make it so that diagnostic software tools don't require internet access because that's a way that Apple has used to pair parts together.
So if you, if you buy a part through Apple's consumer parts program, you have to enter your serial number before you buy the part. And when you saw the part like matches to see if that's the serial number part that you bought, that's ridiculous. Because that blocks, let's say you have two phones that they're not working and you wanna take the some pieces outta one and you put it in the other and use it. You can't do that with the, the way that Apples designed their tool right now. So if we had diagnostic software that didn't require internet access or authentication, then it would allow you to do what you've always historically been able to do with your product, which is, Hey, I have two things that don't work. Let me combine them, make some parts at work, and, and I'm off to the races.
Ah, yeah. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me at all to, to have that in there. You've also expressed I'd say displeasure on the fact that companies are actually let off the hook if a device is no longer made. That seems like a pretty glaring, glaring emission because I think you know I have, I have had many experiences where I've had a device that maybe isn't a current device, but that's kind of the point is that I want to get as much life out of that. Is that, is that the case here in, in Minnesota that you can't do that?
Kyle Wiens (00:08:54):
Yeah, we, we have find a way to <laugh> to, to expand the lifespans of all of our products for sure. And, and so this is the challenges with, with manufacturers though on the other side, they have to figure out how they gonna plan the supply chain of parts so they don't a, you know, make way too many and have to eat that cost. But, but it would make sense to me that if you're end of lifeing a product, you'll final run of, of spare parts, you have them available. And that's where we're looking. We really need to have some kinda year threshold where there's a requirement of how long companies need to support their products for. And that leads us to California, because that's exactly what the proposed California law would do.
All right, so let's <laugh> I love it. You set it up and I'm gonna knock it outta the park. So so the California law, and this was actually just two nights ago, California advanced, its right to repair Bill in the Senate, 38 to zero bipartisan vote. So seems like everybody's behind this, but yet there have been similar bills in the state for the past five years that have actually died in the California Senate. So I'm really curious to know, like, why is this one so supported when it's been such a long road to get to this point?
Kyle Wiens (00:09:57):
It's taken us a lot of time to build up the inertia, the momentum. Remember we have trillions of dollars of market cap registered on the other side opposing this issue. And so it's really taken a huge coalescing. We have support from the Biden administration. The Federal Trade Commission issued a landmark report saying that they, they found no evidence supporting manufactured repair restrictions. And that kind of evidence is starting to make its way to lawmakers. And they're seeing that that <laugh> that history is, is on the side of, of making the change here. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Okay. So what are we seeing out of this California law? What, I mean, we, we do, you know, Micah and I both and everybody here in this studio pretty much well, yeah, entirely. We all live in California. <Laugh>. I don't think anyone's too, to hear from.
Kyle Wiens (00:10:39):
And it too, so this, this strikes home, it strikes home to me. No, I would note also this is important to Apple and Google and a few other tech manufacturers because they are here as well. Now the executives are here. So yeah, California is being very closely watched by the entire industry. California typically is the state that moves first on this kind of thing, but because the tech manufacturers are here and have such a strong lobbying presence, they've able been able to delay it. And that's why you saw progress in Colorado and Minnesota and New York first. Now it's finally coming home.
So are you happy with you know, seeing us how you are a California citizen and this law has passed here? Are, are there It
Kyle Wiens (00:11:14):
Hasn't passed completely, or
That's right. Sorry. Sorry. It has not passed completely, but it has passed. So
Kyle Wiens (00:11:18):
It, it has to go through, right? It's gotta go through the Senate and then the house, right? And then if there's changes to reconcile it, and then the governor signs it, so we're not, so then we're not, yeah,
We're not quite there yet. Chances are if it goes through, there's probably gonna be some permutations and as, as is usually the case, they start to kind of negotiate these things. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But based on where it's at right now, are you, are you excited about what you're seeing? Is there anything in there that you're like, oh God, yeah. I mean, this is progress, but it's not quite there, <laugh>?
Kyle Wiens (00:11:44):
Yeah. Well the, the exciting thing in the California law is it's based on an existing law. California actually has the best warranty law in the country. The, the Beverly Song Warranty Act says the pro manufacturers have to provide the repair option of some kind for seven years. If it's an electronic product that costs more than a hundred dollars, that's unique in the world. Nowhere else does it require products to be maintained for seven years. So if you have a a Mac laptop say that's, that was made in, you know, 2017 or something apple will repair it in California. They won't repair it in Oregon. So that has been a key difference, and that this new law also uses that seven year timeframe that manufacturers have to make parts, tools, and information available for that full seven years, which is huge.
Hmm. Interesting. All right, cool. Well then I'll cross my fingers. Hope this continues to go along. What, what is, or
Kyle Wiens (00:12:31):
Or even better than crossing your fingers, call your legislator.
Kyle Wiens (00:12:34):
That's a legisla in the house and tell 'em to support the bill.
That's the problem, right? It's like, oh yeah, we'll just sit back on the sidelines and hope for Yeah, please
Kyle Wiens (00:12:42):
Don't, it won't happen if we all don't pitch in and help. This is one of those things. There's so much money on the other side. Fair enough. There's so much interest. And, and this really is one of those points in history where if we don't take this moment and pass this now while we have this momentum that we're not gonna get another chance, there will be too much money, there'll be too much opposition. We're, we're going through a pivot in the, the world of all the things that we have where electronics are moving into all of them. And the moment electronics move into a product, it goes from something you could fix to something you can't, right? It gives manufacturers access to controlled products. So unless we weigh in now, we're gonna lose access to owning all of our products forever. Ugh.
And there is nothing worse. Like, I've had this experience so many times where I have something that would be per like, is this still in practically perfect condition except for this one thing that renders it completely useless? There is no way to get it back. And if it weren't for that one thing, it's just wasteful and it's unnecessary. So I'll go ahead and make a commitment to you, Kyle, that I will get in touch with my legislature and, and
Kyle Wiens (00:13:41):
Fantastic. I made a handy tool for you. So if you go to california.repair.org, you can punch in your phone number and your zip code and we will call you and then call your representative and connect. You Don't have another phone number.
That's amazing. California.Repair.Org. I love it. Thank you for that. That's fantastic. Kyle Waynes, you're doing excellent work. I love what you all do and I fix it, of course. But I love that you're also really push, you know, pounding the pavement as it were when it comes to right to repair and we're seeing progress. And so I wanna thank you for all of that effort and thank you for taking some time with us today. I know your schedule is busy, so we appreciate you.
Kyle Wiens (00:14:16):
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Thank you. I fix it.com folks, you go there not only just for the the tools and the services, the ability to fix your devices and stuff, but also for the education, cuz there is a lot posted there by their staff about things like exactly this. So thank you again, Kyle. All right, we have coming up next an interview with Dan Warren about up ww d c which is right around the corner, and we're getting pretty excited about what we're gonna see. So we're gonna talk with Dan here in a moment. But first, let's take a moment and thank the sponsor of this episode. This episode of Tech News Weekly is brought to you by Dell Client Solutions devices orchestrated by the experts at C D W. So the people at C D W, they get your unique workforce has unique needs for their devices, especially as we all continue with hybrid work and all the ways that that <laugh> permeates the industry right now.
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You can learn more at cdw.com/dell client. That's cdw.com/dell client. We thank them for their support of Tech News Weekly. All right, let's take a trip to WW d c Woo. Yes. So Apples WW d c, the Worldwide Developer's Conference will kick off on Monday. Pleased to say I will be there in person covering the event as well. Nice. As well as the person we have joining us on the show. I'll mention in a moment, but Apple's Worldwide Developer's Conference is the time of year when Apple brings in developers from around the world. It's sort of like it's written in the title Worldwide Developer's Conference to show off loads of new things, but mostly for the app developers who are making software for the various platforms. Apple puts out joining us today from Six Colors to talk about. This is my clockwise co-host, Dan Morin.
Welcome back to the show, Dan. Hey, Micah. Good to be here. Good to have you. So let us kick things off. I think the best way to, to start is to talk about what we can always expect from WW d c. This is always, or at least up to this point, has always been the time when Apple announces the next version of its software and where we get to see some of the new features coming to that software. And then of course, it is the opportunity for developers to see these new features and think about how to use them in their apps. So, speaking specifically of software, before we talk anything about hardware let's kick things off with iOS, iPad os. What are the rumors of what we can expect in iPhone and iPad land?
Dan Moren (00:18:13):
Well for reasons that we'll discuss a little bit later, the rumors this year surrounding a lot of Apple's platform updates is that this might be a quieter year, which is to say there will still be new features, there will still be enhancements to existing features, but it might be a little less than we might see in the ordinary year because of other stuff going on. So, with that in mind, there have been a bunch of things that have been rumored so far among them most prominently on iOS. The addition of a new journaling app, this seems to be something that people are talking about a lot, which is the idea of an app, which lets you sort of write down things that are going on in your life every day. Maybe pull in information that it can access from other places on your phone.
Like, oh, you know, you hung out with Micah at Apple Park on Monday, and we noted that. So when you go back and look at that day in the past and oh yeah, on June 5th, that's where I was. So that's one thing that has been sort of rumored to be a, a major part of iOS, at least possibly iPad OS as well. More recently we've also seen a rumor of a new smart display feature on I iOS 17 that would work on the lock screen. So, oh, in the same way that you can kind of put your apple Watch down for the night and it goes into its little nightstand mode where it works like a little alarm clock. This would be something that's sort of taking that to the next level. Probably using the always onscreen in the mo more recent iPhones and being able to display little tiles of information when it's sort of in landscape mode sitting there overnight.
We don't really know a lot of details about that, but that's something that's, that's floated up in the last few weeks. And then on the iPad side, there's, there's less there, but a few things that, that might show up. The health app might make a debut on the iPad. It's only been on the iPhone to date, but for those people who like viewing their health information on the iPad, this might be the year. And then there have been some rumors that widgets on the lock screen, which is something that came to iOS last year, may expand to the iPad as well this year. So look for smaller features like that to probably be the headlines for the iPad and iOS side of it.
Man, I I really like the customized lock screen on iOS, so I'd love to see something like that on the iPad for sure. Yeah. moving along, given that this is already going to be an event focused on something that we'll
Dan Moren (00:20:29):
Momentarily, <laugh>, you promise to bring you
Dan Moren (00:20:32):
Something <laugh>? The elephant
Dan Moren (00:20:34):
The room, yes. I don't want to distract, but it's sitting back there, just, it's, you keep seeing the snout come into the screen and sort of tickle my ear and I'm like, come on, hold on. We'll talk about it in a minute. Hold on, elephant. Anyway the, it's already the case that T V O s does not get a whole lot of mentions on a WW d c that is not super packed. So I am curious, has have there been any rumors about T V O S updates that are worth talking about or kind have all those rolled out already? I know your colleague and six Colors pal wrote about the new picture and picture mode in mm-hmm. <Affirmative> sports. So is that what we're gonna see from T V O S or is there a possibility for that?
Dan Moren (00:21:20):
Yeah, it all indications seem to be, it's gonna be a pretty quiet year for TV os there doesn't seem to be anything really floating around out there, which is not to say that Apple couldn't pull something out of its tat but I certainly wouldn't expect it to be sort of a major overhaul or anything of that kind. If anything, they might even just tout stuff that they've already done, like adding this multi sort of approach and perhaps maybe some deals with some partners or something like that. But I, I really don't expect it. I think there's a good chance T V O S may not even make it into the keynote proper. It may sort of just get a little, a little note on the website afterwards. Oh yeah, there's a few things read int os
Too. Yeah, I think uht V O s and those who, you know, pay attention to it are used to that I remember last year. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> sort of going to the website. Now what about Makos Petaluma, which is certainly going to be the next version of Makos. What have we heard <laugh>?
Dan Moren (00:22:14):
Oh, you've got, you've got information I don't have then Micah what
Have we about the next version?
Dan Moren (00:22:19):
Yeah, NA not much. Also, Mac os seems to be pretty quiet as well. Anything that's coming there might be linked to a hardware announcement there. I'm sure there will be some small features too. I think one thing to look for this year, and I think this has been the case in recent years as well, is this idea of Apple sort of rolling out new features that go across its entire lineup of products. So you may see more and more stuff that's announced, like, Hey, we're doing this and it works on all of our devices, the iPad, the iPhone, the Mac, et cetera. Look for something more like that because I think it saves 'em a little bit of time and it, it gets outta this weird structure they had where they denounce something for the iPhone and they wouldn't say anything about the Mac. And then like 20 minutes later when they're talking about the Mac, it's like, oh yeah, it also does that thing the iPhone does. So I, I would look more for things like that where it's gonna be like, these are, these are improvements we're making across the board, and they'll apply to the Mac as well as everything else. And then of course, yeah. What is, what's the name? Mac os Petaluma, makos, Sonoma Makos, big Bear. I don't know. It's something California related,
So yes, we know it'll be California related. But it, it, well, we'll see. Now there is a little bit of news and you actually wrote about this that watch os may be something to watch. Tell us about what we can expect from Wa os
Dan Moren (00:23:36):
Sure. Yeah. Wa so the Apple Watch is coming up on the ninth anniversary of its announcement, not its release but fall will be the ninth anniversary. And it seems to be, the indications are, we'll see a big overhaul in watchOS 10. And that may take the form of a new widget based system that allows developers to sort of create these little screens of information where you can get easy little bits of data without having to open an app itself. Think about stuff like we've seen on, on iOS in recent years or as well on the iPad on the home screen and on the lock screen, various places. This whole sort of widget kit framework that Apple's developed is very extensible. And I think there's a good chance that we'll see something up in the watch because it's the perfect place for sort of, Hey, I just wanna check the weather.
Early on, way back when Apple first announced the Apple Watch, it had this feature called Glances mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, which was this idea of an app that was just like a single screen. And I think they're trying another shot at that in a different sort of technological way, but with the same idea of this is what you really want as Glanceable information. You don't wanna spend five minutes interacting with an app on your watch, you're just there to find something and then go back to whatever you were doing. So we may see some changes to how things like Digital Crown or the side button on the Apple Watch work apple may sort of mix up like what those features do. But I look for something that's sort of a bigger overhaul. This seems to be where a lot of the software attention has gone this year.
Got it. And then let's go ahead and bring in the elephant as much as every year I talk about how software is the main focus of ww d c it is not always the case. And this year we've heard rumor on rumor on rumor about new hardware launching at WW d c, but I'm not ready to grab the big elephant. I'm gonna grab the little pink one which is the one that
Dan Moren (00:25:32):
Floating around in your
Vision. Exactly. I need to talk to somebody about that, but it, I can see written on the side. I guess it's tattooed on the side, it says Mac hardware. So can we expect Mac hardware at this event or should we maybe expect it?
Dan Moren (00:25:46):
You know, it's interesting. If you'd asked me a few weeks ago, I would've bet on, no, there have been rumors floating around out there about a 15 inch MacBook error which is basically just a larger version of the 13 inch air that Apple already sells. And that's, it's its most popular computer. So it makes sense that they wanna expand into a larger screen as well. I didn't think necessarily it would get time in the keynote, because it seems like a keynote that it's got a lot going on, but it seems that it may be one of possibly several New Mac. A recent report from Mark Kerman over at Bloomberg suggests that Apple is looking at rolling out several new Macs on stage on Monday. What those are, that's a big question <laugh>, because a lot of the apps, a lot of the Macs have been recently revamped and it doesn't seem like Apple's necessarily in a position to roll out brand new hardware.
But rumors seem to be coalescing around things, possibly a new Mac studio. And then possibly I think maybe a 13 inch MacBook Pro as well was mentioned. And then there's the Mac Pro that's been floating out there for a while. Apple famously said it was gonna finish its apple silicon transition in two years. That was back in 2020. Lemme just check the calendar with the glance of information on my Apple Watch. It's 2023. We did not finish but they teased it last spring in 2022 during the Mac Studio's announcement. So where is the macro? Will it get shown off? Will it get mentioned? Will they just never talk about it again? We don't know, but it could happen next week.
Oh boy. It's all fading or they're hoping gonna fade into the background maybe. We'll see. And then now, now it's time. There's been so much talk about Apple at the very least revealing and talking about its mixed reality headset. Of course, I'd love to hear what, you know, we might know, but I'm also curious to hear if you think this is going to be a product that is fully announced at wwdc or if this is just going to be a matter of it being teased at the event.
Dan Moren (00:27:47):
Yeah, I think this is a good question. At this point there's been so much smoke that if there's not a fire I don't know what the fire department's here <laugh>. But yeah, I, I I think that the Apple headset is definitely coming. It's gonna be showed off. My guess is it's something that's going to be given a lot of time both on stage and potentially in sort of ancillary events around this. Because what this event, you know, as you said Micah early on, this is here for developers. This is here for people who are writing software for Apple's platform. And when Apple's rolling out a brand new platform and it wants to get developers on board, it needs to find a way to bring them in. And that's potentially gonna mean not only being able to show off what this product is, but also explain from a brand new software platform standpoint, like, you're the tools that you can use to build apps for this.
Here's how we're gonna help you get your existing apps over there. Here are the opportunities for you to build new apps. All of that means it's a big play for Apple. And so I, I think that it's gonna get more than just sort of a brief vague tease. Now, we may not get all the details mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, it's possible we won't get a ship date. That seems likely, in fact, given the the word that it's gonna take a little longer than expected, it's possible we won't even get a price, which is obviously also something that's been talked about a lot. So we may not get all the details, but I'm guessing from a technological standpoint, Apple's gonna wanna paint a pretty complete picture here of the device that it's making and what the value proposition is for users and developers alike.
Understood. Now is there anything else that we've heard rumored that we might expect at WW d c outside of what we've talked about thus far? Not necessarily hardware, but any features that have kind of stuck out to you or any other hardware that could get announced?
Dan Moren (00:29:31):
Yeah, it's not a lot. I think there's a couple interesting things to look for. In particular, there's been this ongoing rumor of Apple having to open up its platform, especially iOS to apps side loaded mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. because incoming legislation potentially from the European Union may affect that in some way. So I think we're gonna have to look at that and sort of see, like maybe they don't come out and say it because they obviously don't wanna give it a lot of attention if they don't have to. But maybe look for clues or breadcrumbs in some of the announcements they do make to say like, oh, you know, that makes sense that they put that in there if they're preparing for a future where they might have to start side loading apps or allowing users to side load apps. So I, I think that's one thing in particular that I've got my eyes on is just sort of keeping an ear, seeing if there's something that they talk about in the presentation that you might wonder why are they talking about this? And then sort of in a larger context, oh yeah, this is laying groundwork for something that's coming later. Cause it's something Apple likes to do a lot, is to like, introduce new technologies that may not be immediately something that people use, but may sort of set the stage for something that's coming in a few years.
Got it. Yeah, that is, that'll be interesting to see especially given the slight changes we've seen thus far and all of the little software features that have been added. And sometimes you don't find out until later by looking through what different right. Little events that are taking place at the bullet.
Dan Moren (00:30:55):
Look, the small, the small fine prints is always
Recorded. Right? Yes, exactly. Well, Dan Morin, I wanna thank you so much for taking some time out of your day to join us. Safe travels as you join us here in California soon. And I will see you on Monday, but until then if folks wanna follow you online and check out the work you're doing, where should they go to do so
Dan Moren (00:31:17):
You can check out all my writing about email@example.com, and I write a weekly column over at macworld called Stay Foolish. As well, I host the text show the Rebound which you can firstname.lastname@example.org. And Mike and I co-host Clockwise email@example.com. I'm also a science fiction author. You can find all my books and information about firstname.lastname@example.org.
Beautiful. Thank you, Dan.
Dan Moren (00:31:40):
Thanks Mike. I look forward to seeing you Monday. See
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Get started with a free trial of a teams or enterprise plan, or get started for free across all devices as an individual user at Bit warden.com/twit. That's bit warden.com/twit. Thank you bit warden for sponsoring this week's episode of Tech News Weekly. All righty, Jason Howell, it's time for your story. All right, so this this is interesting. So we all remember, maybe we don't, but I remember when Twitter not too long ago changed its a p i policy. Yep. And it kind of it, it impacted, you know, third party apps pretty, pretty significantly. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, Reddit has an I p O on the horizon somewhere this year. It's expected that Reddits gonna file for its i p o. And so leading up to this, it seems like they're making some changes, some house cleaning. Right? We heard if, if we go back in time since 2008, the A P I and their policy on the a p I has been very loose.
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's been very open for access. So that means that developers could build many things to interate and to interact with the Reddit service. So you've got, you know, third party Reddit apps, of which I've used many. I now use the, the official app, which maybe makes me an outlier. I know a lot of people, I hate the official app, but you've been pulled into it. I, we'll, we'll talk about that in a moment, but I I have somewhat, yeah. Yeah. So that, so yes, absolutely. We can talk about that. Developers creating third party tools for things like moderation. It's en it's encouraged a lot of, you know, this stuff, the, these different services and apps that make Reddit better in many ways or make it kind of wider, you know, a wider appeal for people that don't like the traditional Reddit approach.
Making ways to aid and search across that massive data set right's, huge. Being able to search that and use that many different ways. Recently though, it became the source for something much more data hungry. And that is, you know, we're always talking about AI and we're talking about these data sets and how those data sets are trained and trained around human communication and everything. And Reddit is a ripe source for the picking when it comes to that. So you've got this massive dataset of people communicating with each other li a ton of information and knowledge. And Reddit's open a p i policy, meaning open access. So people building businesses around AI can very freely go and pull all that information down and feed it into their system. And suddenly their system that they make their own, you know, profit off of is kind of riding on the coattails of the information that Reddit generates.
And as we all know, data is valuable, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, so Reddit announced back in April that it would be updating its terms for developers for embeds ads and data APIs. Instead of free access to all this data. It would now come at a cost. And CEO Steve Huffman told the New York Times, we don't need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free. So that tells you where they're coming from. They suddenly, you know, realize after decades of offering this stuff for free. Wait a minute, this is really valuable. And, you know, a lot of people are guessing with the I P O kind of around the corner, it makes more sense for them to button these things up so that they have even more ways of, of, of satisfying shareholders once, once we get there.
Right. so it's understandable. Reddit did say that the API would stay free for certain use cases, things like moderation, tools, things like educational and research applications. So that's good. Not, you know, not a cost associated with with entirely everything. But one big question then was how it would impact the the community of third party apps, which has, as of, you know, up till now, been very vibrant. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, like there are, you know, many developers have created a business out of their third party apps to access Reddit and kind of filled the holes. Of course, Reddit does a lot of things within their apps that these third party apps probably, I'm, I'm guessing at this point, cuz I haven't used them in a while, don't do, you know, ads, serving ads Reddit table to easily control that experience through their app.
But our third party developer is able to do a, do an app for browsing Reddit that doesn't include the ads, those revenue generating things. Probably So Reddit had mentioned at the time that it planned on enforcing limits on how many a p i requests could be made by a single app or service. And then, you know, of course some sort of a fee associated with that information. And when we're talking about independent developers who have built these apps, largely independent developers, even a small amount of money to access that data could have, I mean, crippling impacts Yeah. To their business. Yeah. And that's kind of where we're at. So that's all the setup. Kristen Seig is the developer of the popular client. Apollo posted in the Apollo app. Subreddit, of course, <laugh>, creator of a Reddit app has a subreddit for the app that, that people are using to update fans of the app on what the future holds.
And his example shows that it's not good for third party app developers. And I think people were hoping that Reddit would still be friendly. And there was kinda like the, this hope trail that Reddit had been laying out like, no, it's okay, we'll work with you, work with you. Well, Christian started started this post with a cut to the chase. 50 million requests cost $12,000 a figure. Far more than I could ever have imagined. Apollo made 7 billion requests last month, which would put it at about 1.7 million per month. 20 million US dollars per year to run a third party Reddit browsing app. Yeah. Which is, but you're not even bringing in that amount of money. No. And I think there that he does have a subscription based aspect to the business. Yeah. But I mean, these apps largely as they have been for decades at this point, are bought once, you know, I, oh I'm gonna buy the, the Apollo app and you and you know, so there's no, unless you're doing some sort of a subscription service, there is no recurring generated Right.
Revenue along the way. You buy it and you've got it. Yeah. So the idea of coming up with 20 million US dollars per year to support the flow of data requests that the app is making, and that's just to pay Reddit. Yeah. That's not anything to do with the cost, the other costs of running the business, the costs and costs for him and for him primarily. Like he, he has to make a living, you know, his staff, if he has staff, you know, a lot of independent developers, they do it entirely themselves, but they have to make a living otherwise, like, you know, maybe they enjoy it, I don't know. But I'm sure they do enjoy it, but I'm sure they also wanna make a living off of it. Right. That's why you can do that and maybe focus on that alone. Yeah. And not have to worry about other things.
And the Yeah, I, when you were talking about this, it brought me back to every time, cuz I'm not really a Reddit person, although I do, when I do browse Reddit, I use Apollo. Okay. and have spoken with Kristen before and like incredible developer and super sharp about the process and everything. But something that's always been the case that I've seen is anytime I click on a Reddit link, it always is trying to get me to view it in the Reddit app. In the app. Yeah. It's always trying to push me to this, push me to that. It fe it's felt like a long, for a long time they've been doing what Twitter started to do where features weren't available in third party apps that you could get in the first party app mm-hmm. <Affirmative> to bring people into it.
I ended up giving up and just switching to Twitter the, you know, the actual app many years ago now. I did that was too, yeah. Was a third party developer or third party app user for a long time. And then I switched over. And so I'm not surprised to hear you say that you switched over to the, to the official Reddit app. Cause I'm sure it's the same kind of thing. You, you just kind of end up giving up on a third party app being able to provide the full experience mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and it slowly snuffs it out. In this case, the developers landed on something that is enough magic that it's keeping a lot of people around. And then it's so sad to see this possibility of that spark getting snuffed poof. Yeah. And for the sake of a company going public, I I didn't even know that <laugh> Reddit made money in the first place, to be honest with you.
I was like, how does it even make money? Ads obviously make sense. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know if I've ever really seen too many of them or, but again, I'm not on Reddit very often, so. Yeah. Yeah. That it was all, it was surprise to me to learn that they were going to I p o cuz I thought, I didn't know that there was a way for this company to make any money just on if it sort of existed. Yeah. Right. And so I think that's, that is for its i p o and make most of its money through ads and it, it doesn't now the value of its data. Yeah. I guess I don't foresee in my mind enough developers being able to afford no. To offer third party apps. No. So then I don't see Reddit really making a whole lot of money off of the a p i access.
So it's really gotta do it from the ad side of things mm-hmm. <Affirmative> because the places that are gonna stick around are gonna be the ones that can offer it for that, that Reddit offers for free to education to research, da da da da. So Yeah. Does that mean that people are gonna see double the ads you know, whenever they go public? And then does that mean that Reddit's slowly going to, you know, become less popular because mm-hmm. <Affirmative> there's less content that you actually, it's just, it's all capitalism, it's a mess. I mean that's, that's exactly it, right? It's at the end of the day, it's capitalism. It's a business that, and I hate to say this, but it's all, I think it like 99 out of a hundred times, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when, when at a certain point a business just, it kind of does that crossover where it's like, well you know what?
The money's really damn important mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and we have to do this. Yeah. We have to do this for any number of reasons. And at the root of that is, is driven by capitalism and that's just the, you know, that's where it always goes. Yeah. That's the realm that, that I guess <laugh> we live with here in the US and business and all that. You know, and I, and I also hate to say this, but it's true is that anytime you build a business on the, on the back of another business. Yeah. You know, see, see the comment that I made 30 seconds ago, it's not a matter of if, but when. Yeah. And so if you build a business that ties in that is a third party client of something else, they're allowing it now, there's probably a time where they're not gonna allow it.
And if you haven't considered that as a possibility, then you're kind of living in a fantasy land. Cuz I think it, it does happen eventually. And when that happens, you know, are Yeah. I mean it's unfortunate because these are developers who have poured their heart and their soul into apps. They've made a living for, you know, a decade or however long they've been doing this. And they have a lot of people that support them in that they've got this great community, all these wonderful things. But at the end of the day, it's Reddits business and Reddit can choose what it wants to do. And, you know, it's choosing this. And I, I think I'm curious to know how deeply Reddit looked into the impact of this, because it seemed like they were painting a picture that like, no, you know what, we're gonna work with you.
But this is like, you know, as, as as Christians said, this is not anywhere rooted in reality. As far as third party developers of these apps are concerned, none of them are gonna be able to afford 20 million Yeah. A year. Yeah. So then was that just all, you know, all words and, and and that was it. It it's like that bird that eats the fish out of a crocodile's mouth, you know what I'm the, the, it's sort of a beneficial relationship. Yeah. But then I guess the crocodile gets dental health insurance and doesn't need the bird anymore. <Laugh>. And so the bird just has to find food elsewhere. Yeah. But it can't, so then it languishes and all of these little third party apps are those Egyptian pl birds that <laugh> that are just flitting away cuz they can't eat crocodile's. Got a dentist now.
So Yeah. That's too bad. I, I mean, I, I do feel that, you know, someone with Christians' pedigree mm-hmm. <Affirmative> like, you know, there are, there are a lot of subpar Okay. Developers out there. Christian is obviously a great developer, made a, like one of the most, at least on iOS side, probably arguably the most popular third party Reddit client. Right. And so that is a, those are, there are many voices there. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's, that's a, that's a big group. So Yeah. That's what, that's a pedigree that, that he can, he can do something. Yeah. With, but but you know, it's, it's gotta be hard when you've built up this thing and now you're faced with, well that thing's going away and I wish it wasn't, but it is. So what the heck now? Ugh. So that's, anyways, it's just a shame.
Yeah, it is. It is. So what do you have here? I I, you know, this actually was, was breaking news this morning, but meta has a new quest coming out and I'm curious to know if you're gonna be driving one of these and throwing it on your face. So what's fascinating here, or I guess it's not fascinating. What's predictable here is that, of course on Monday, apple has rumored to be announcing it's mixed reality headset and the timing of it all. <Laugh>. So meta, which of course is the Facebook parent company pulled out an Instagram video of all things z Zuckerberg posted on Instagram, and then shortly after that Instagram post went out with a video and a little writeup. Then Facebook's blog, or excuse me, I guess Meta's blog, but it is email@example.com. So yeah put out the sort of understanding of what this next headset is, and they're really pushing the mixed reality aspect of this headset.
They call it meta reality, and it's something that is available in the Quest two that's available right now. And in, of course, the Quest Pro that's available. In the Quest two, you have these lower quality cameras that can show you black and white view of what's in front of you. And for a long time it was this, it was not super involved. You would tap twice on the side of the headset and then it would cut to that view and you could walk around while keeping the headset on and see things that were around you. But it wasn't very high detail. It wasn't sort of a one-to-one, if you can think of it that way, view of what you were seeing. And so one way that I had hoped to use that was if there was a service I was trying to log into on the Quest two, what I had to do was take off the headset, get the next six digits of the password, put the headset back on, type them in, take off the headset again, memorize the next six, do over and over, because with that black and white view, bright screens, and frankly, displays in general did not show the text very well at all.
So I couldn't keep the headset on. It was messy. It was not good. And just in general to try to call that mixed reality is not realistic. Now, the pro came along and I did get to try that out. We I was that asked the tech guys at the time. I think it was. Yeah, yeah. What was that? Was it tech guys? It was, oh yeah, it was the tech guys. Yeah. so it was right before we made the change Oh, okay. To the new show. So it was still the radio show. Got it. And we did I did a sort of demo of the system, and it's mixed reality was better for sure. And now they're trying to improve that even more. They have what's called high fidelity color pass through. So this is going to give you that actual color view of what's in front of you.
They're also touting an, that sounds good. Excuse me. A new Snapdragon processor that has two times the G P U Power of the Quest two. They're talking about how it's slimmer in design quote, 40% slimmer optic profile. I am assuming that means that the sort of portion that goes out in front of your face mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, the optic profile is slimmer. Yeah. Flatter, a little closer to your face. It doesn't project out as much. Exactly. So it's maybe not gonna weigh you down as much. Yeah. that's welcome. Yeah, exactly. The, the touch controllers have been updated as well. They now don't have that ring around the top of them. So that face or meta says that that's because they got the feedback that that could kind of make people feel a little tr like they, they were a little trapped inside of it, so when they were moving their hand, they would hit the ring.
So they wanted to make it feel a little bit more free. Hmm. So they experienced that. Yeah, I didn't have that issue either. And they're going to continue selling the Quest two and Quest Pro alongside the Quest three. So all of the models will be available. What else is kind of interesting is that they've announced that on June 4th, they will once again lower the Quest two s price to 2 99 99. So $300 U S D for the 128 gigabyte model of the Quest two. And that's the day before WW d c. That's the day before. Yeah, <laugh>. It is, isn't it? So it's, it is, I'm happy that they're doing that because I thought it was really, I was really annoyed by the fact that they had raised the price. Yeah, me too. Me too, me too. For the same it, they didn't improve it.
It was the same device. They just raised the price on it. I know. I that No, that does not compute. No, I was really bothered by that. But now they're bringing it back down, and while they're bringing it back down, there's also going to be a software update that somehow is going to improve G P U and C P U performance on both the Quest two and the Quest Pro. So, okay. The headsets we already have will also be seeing an improvement to CPU U and G P U performance. You know, you get somebody in there who knows how to properly tax the CPU U and G P U and do it in a better way, and that can make those little performance improvements. So this is kind of a full featured or a full set of announcements from Meta, not just for the Quest three, but for the, the whole suite of, of offerings that the company has.
When they talk about meta reality they are really I, it's interesting to see how much of the focus is on that, because with the Quest Pro, the thing that I didn't like about the Quest Pro is that the bottom of the Quest Pro is open to your eyes. And you, they had these little magnetic things that you could clip into them. They're like silicone and they're magnetic. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and it would sort of guard the bottom of your eyes, but still light was getting through. And I felt that that kind of pulled me out of the experience mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and I thought that was an odd choice for the Quest too. It, it's feels like what they're trying to do with this Quest three is keep you fully immersed in vr, but then also provide the opportunity for augmented reality by creating that full color pass through.
So they, they have a little game that they show in the, well, I don't even know if it's a game per se, it looks like a game. But it could just be a concept of what looks a lot like a Dungeons and Dragons game. And so the person has the headset on and then on their table in augmented reality is a full kind of game board with little characters, and they've got a roll of the dice that they can do as they are, yeah. Here we can, we can perhaps show that part of it. Oh, we just switched back. So anyway it will be interesting to see how the Quest three compares to the Quest Pro. Meaning I'm curious how here we go, how the lineup is going to fit into what's already there, or rather how the new model is going to fit into the lineup that already exists.
Right. Because if we've got the Quest two, which is kind of the every person's quest that is the most accessible, most cost. Yeah. $300 basically. Yeah. And then you've got the Quest three, which is all of this next generation stuff. It's got new handsets, blah, blah, blah, blah. Where does the Quest Pro fit in? What Meta suggests is that the Quest Pro is meant for work, that it is a a model that people will use when they are trying to get work done. And so you, I guess you have which not many people are using to do VR headset for work right now. It's just not, yeah. They're like, well, it's not having, it's got the eye tracking and this and that and the other. So you're gonna be able to you know, look like you're the real person in meetings and <laugh>.
Yeah. No, no, no. I don't know. I don't think so. I think it's a stretch. Yeah. But yeah. The other, the last thing I'll say about it is that they are really touting, and I think this is where they actually do have a point, the huge library of games and content that exists for sure, for the Quest. That's, that's I think a big strength for Oculus, for, for the, the Quest devices right now is that that library is pretty, pretty solid and yeah. Easy to get lost in if you're, if you're in the store <laugh>. Yeah. You know what I mean? There's so many, so many titles coming on this. They had a kind of a games announcement and I don't know if you've ever power washed in real life, but it's really satisfying. Oh my gosh.
I love power washing <laugh>. And and there's Power Wash Simulator is a game that's coming to, I don't know, they, oh wait, it hasn't come out yet, but it will be. It's coming to to MetWest I think for the first time. Like, you can, can get it in. I can't. Other, other that'll actually play. I haven't picked up my VR headset in so long. Yeah. My quest, I probably need to charge it so the batteries don't start do like, losing their juice. Yeah. yeah, my, my daughter asked, has asked a couple of times in the last couple of weeks to play vr and then it had been, you know, wow. Very, very distant since the time before. So she's starting to kind of pick up on it again. And I, like, I find myself, cuz we've got the first one and we've got the second one.
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and the first one, of course at this point is totally outdated Right. And kind of slow and they don't even really support it and everything. But I love playing VR with her. But the last two times she's asked, I've like, I've not, I've not felt like I would feel very good if I did. Yeah. And so I wanted to pass on it, which I think is just such a huge hurdle for I agree. Anything vr, like, you gotta be feeling great to throw that on your face and that's, yeah. It's just not always the case. But but I am really interested or curious, like the question that you posed, the, basically it's three priced tiers, it's 300 for the Quest to 500 for the Quest three, and then a thousand for the Quest Pro. And I don't believe the whole get work done thing with a pro.
Like, I, I think yeah, I think that's a, a pipe dream. And I've used the Quest Pro and I will say the the tracking on it is quite impressive. Okay. So after the day that I did the demo here in the studio, Leo let me take it home for a couple of days, maybe it was like a week. And I played I think the game's called I Expect You To Die. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And in my space, without having to rearrange a bunch of stuff, it was able to put the little traps all over the room. And as I was moving through the space, you know, it wasn't as if they were going into changing locations. I was impressed by that. I didn't get ill playing that game because the tracking was good enough. But still, when I, I thought, oh, because it's so good because the refresh rate is higher because the optics are better.
Let me try playing a game that before would make me sick. Which is any game where you have to, where the movement is fast is not just you moving around, but instead you like use a controller to move in the virtual space. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That I can't play any of those. Yeah. That's hard. And so I tried and I was able to play for maybe 10 minutes, which is more than I was able to do in the Quest too. But after that I thought, I'm done. Like, I, I can't do this again for a week. So no. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's just not worth it. So I that thousand dollars price point is, well, and especially because the Quest three has better has better resolution mm-hmm. <Affirmative> like better optics Yes. My understanding than the Quest Pro. So then you gotta really ask yourself like, what I actually are you getting from a hardware perspective from the Quest Pro Anyways, it's, it's kind of confusing.
It really does feel like, you know, apple is gonna probably do what Apple does, suck the oxygen outta the room. <Laugh>. So they had to get this out. I mean, the timing is like so obviously timed with what Apple is expected to do on Monday. They gotta kind of get that announcement out there before every article that's written about their new hardware is also added to it with you know, Meta's trying hard to captivate the audience they already have because Apple's on their heels. Yeah. And we know what Apple does and that whole narrative, you know, is, is going to happen. And so esp I think too, yeah, keeping in mind Apple has built out it's Apple arcade service. It's almost certainly been working with game developers in Apple Arcade and elsewhere, so Oh yeah, true. It be quick, I think for the company to roll into having a pretty good library of content, which is I think what Meta currently has as the sort of, that's, that's where it leads right now.
So to see that shift also Germin has said on the show in in his blog posts or newsletters that a lot of the iPad apps are just going to run by default on the headset. Ah. they obviously aren't going to have, they're not going to be, you know, VR experiences, but even having, you know, that's the thing about the, the Quest too, or, or the Quest, if I put that on and I wanted to then use Slack and, you know, have three different screens open, for example I mentioned earlier, having to like take the headset off long, do all this stuff, I have to have it set up to where my computer can talk to it over the, like, there's so much involved with doing that in any of the, but yet they call it this, you know, you can work and da da da da.
Apple could quickly have FaceTime working. So now you've got communication back and forth. They launched before this, they're scheduled FaceTime system where you could have different people. And we thought that was kind of competing with Zoom at the time, but now thinking about it this way, where suddenly work and play are all right there in that one headset and you're like switching back and forth between the two. It's, I they're, they've, yeah, they've got Meta's going to have to really, I think step it up. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> if this headset sort of optically lives up to what we have heard about it. Cause I think that's the big thing. Yep. But Med is also more accessible because I was, we were just complaining about a thousand dollars far less expensive. Yes. I know. Heard $3,000 for the first version of Apples. I mean, and maybe, and maybe that's the, maybe the, the Quest Pro, that's why it exists, or that's, that's what, why they lean into work.
Cuz if Apple's leaning into work, which I mean, I, I think that's a large part of what we expect their communication to be about it. And it's a three times more expensive device. Then Meta can say, well, we do that too, and you pay a third of what you pay for Apple and it does all these things and we've got our great library of, you know, all these, all the games and, and other stuff along with it. So maybe the Meta Quests Pro doesn't make sense in the lineup yet because that comparison doesn't exist yet. But once it does, then it's like, okay. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But I think it's still, I think it's still a long way to go to, to try and prove it's a reason for existing. Yeah. By comparison. I don't think, I, I think most people don't buy the pro. I think that's just the way it is right now.
So interesting. Plus and the last, of course, Microsoft also has its fingers in the workspace pie <laugh>. Their HoloLens has been pivoted into industry and work. And then we've seen Magic Leap also start to think about doing industry and work. Yep. So all, a lot of these companies are focusing on sort of work aspect. But what I, I think that Apple pushing it for work is going to be more from the individual level mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So you as an individual can work and play as opposed to where these other companies are going, Hey, companies buy these headsets and let your, your consu or your your workers use them at work. It's more on the, I feel the Apple side, it's not, Hey, companies buy these. It's more like personal productivity Yes. In a work environment. Exactly. Instead of sitting at my desk in my office and looking at a flat screen on the wall, I can have many screens that surround me mm-hmm.
<Affirmative> and do so much more in my day-to-day. And I would love to have that, but not if I feel trapped inside it. Totally. I totally agree. That would be neat. But if it comes at the expense of having to wear something hot and warm on my, you know mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, get hot, that hot face feeling and, and then guess feel woozy, this is not worth it. You're looking around and things feel a little hot. It's like after you go on a rollercoaster or go to a, an amusement park all day and you've been on roller coasters and then you lay down at night. Yeah. And the whole room, you feel like you're still <laugh> on the roller coaster. Yep. Right? Yep. You feel that's, that's the nightmare. You lay down and you feel like you're still in the office. Ah, no. <Laugh>, I can never escape Word.
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