Tech News Weekly 429 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Mikah Sargent [00:00:00]:
Coming up on Tech News Weekly, Jennifer Pattison Tuohy of The Verge joins us and we kick off the show by talking about IKEA trying to bring smart home devices to the masses but struggling to do so. Afterwards, I talk about DLSS 5, the "yassified" filter for games from Nvidia, and Andy Greenberg of Wired stops by to give us an understanding of Dark Sword, a tool that can be used to hack hundreds of millions of iPhones before I round things out with an update on NHTSA's investigation into full self-driving vehicles. All of that coming up on Tech News Weekly. This episode is brought to you by OutSystems, a leading AI development platform for the enterprise. Organizations all over the world are creating custom apps and AI agents on the OutSystems platform, and with good reason. Build, run, and govern apps and agents on one unified platform. Innovate at the speed of AI without compromising quality or control. Trusted by thousands of enterprises worldwide.

Mikah Sargent [00:01:03]:
Worldwide for mission-critical apps. Teams of any size and technical depth can use OutSystems to build, deploy, and manage AI apps and agents quickly and effectively without compromising reliability and security. With OutSystems, you can accelerate ideas from concept to completion. It's the leading AI development platform that is unified, agile, and enterprise-proven, allowing you to build your agentic future with AI solutions deeply integrated into your architecture. OutSystems, Build your agentic future. Learn more at outsystems.com/twit. That's outsystems.com/twit.

Mikah Sargent [00:01:45]:
This is Tech News Weekly, episode 429, with Jennifer Pattison-Touhey and me, Micah Sargent, recorded Thursday, March 19th, 2026. Dark Sword puts hundreds of millions at risk. Hello and welcome to Tech News Weekly, the show where every week we talk to and about the people making and breaking the tech news. I am your host, Micah Sargent, and this week I am joined by the wonderful Jennifer Pattison-Twee. Welcome back, Jen.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:02:19]:
Hello. I've just been here. I was on Twitter last Sunday, so it feels like a tweet week for me.

Mikah Sargent [00:02:25]:
It's very exciting. We always appreciate it when you're here, and I know our listeners adore you as well. So, uh, thank you for being here so frequently. Now, if you have not tuned into the show before, what are you doing? No, I'm glad you're here. This is the part of the show where we talk about our stories of the week, these stories that we find interesting and want to share with all of you. And in some cases, these are stories that have been written by our lovely guest, as is the case today, Jennifer Go ahead and introduce us.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:03:00]:
Yeah, so I wrote a story this week that's not really like totally newsy, but it's a sort of a follow-up on something that I've been covering for a while and it may be affecting you if you are a smart home user. My beat is very much around the smart home and a big thing happened late earlier this year, which was IKEA released a whole bunch of new smart home products using the relatively new Matter over Thread. Protocol. This was big news in the smart home because they're very inexpensive, as is IKEA's MO. So you can get things like smart bulbs, smart remotes, motion sensors starting around $6. I remember when I first bought a motion sensor like 10 years ago and it cost me like $50. Yeah. So it's, this is a huge shift and great.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:03:52]:
For the smart home, but there have been some issues. And this is what I was covering this week is there has the rollout of these new products, which are now fairly widely available in the US from the smart bulbs just sort of launched last week and the sensors and the buttons arrived a few weeks ago. There have been a lot of reports of people struggling to connect these devices to their smart home. I should point out that there are also lots of people that have had no problems whatsoever, but a very large number of people have struggled, myself included. And I, so I've been sort of digging into what these issues are because the broader picture here is this is the first big rollout of Matter over Thread. And we've talked about Matter on the show before. It's a new-ish, it's like 4 years old now, but in the realm of protocols, relatively new standard for the smart home. And it represents an opportunity of bringing all the smart home players together to create an interoperable system.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:05:01]:
Because if you've spent much time in the smart home in the last decade, it's been very fragmented, walled gardens, ecosystems that you have to kind of commit to. And the whole point of Matter is to make it open and interoperable. And IKEA jumping onto this, and they've actually been involved with Matter since the beginning, but now this is their first rollout of products that support Matter, is a huge moment really for the smart home. And unfortunately, these problems are somewhat indicative of the problems that Matter have had as a whole. And in the article that I wrote this week, I was sort of just discussing, I was looking at some of the challenges these people have been facing connecting these devices and trying to understand what some of those problems are. And IKEA has acknowledged that people have been having problems. The Thread Group, which is the group that helps develop the Thread protocol that Matter uses, also commented for me on that for my article, explaining that, you know, one of the problems people are running into is— when I say people, like the manufacturers and the developers who are building these products— is that everyone has to work together. So what they actually said is, you know, Thread provides a robust and secure foundation, but optimizing the end-to-end experience requires ongoing collaboration across all these components.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:06:26]:
And this is the heart of the problem here. Interoperability is hard. And where really I think people are struggling to find ways to get their product, to get their devices connected because everyone has very varied and different setups. This was what Matter was supposed to solve. And sadly, we doesn't feel like it has yet. There's a lot of work, it seems like, going on to try and fix this problem. And IKEA has stepped up and introduced a whole host of new troubleshooting tools and such that I write about in my article. And if you're having these problems, I recommend you check them out.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:07:03]:
But there was one particularly poignant, report recently that really sort of made me think, okay, we have to dive into this properly. It was a great piece by a YouTuber called A Smarter Home, and he went through every single problem he had heard or seen people have with these devices and tried to find solutions. And the video's like 30, 45 minutes long, and he found so many problems, came up with some solutions, but this is not making the smart home simpler. This is making the smart home harder. So, um, Yeah, it's, it's, it's like good news and bad news all at once. Have you tried any of these devices, Micah?

Mikah Sargent [00:07:42]:
Not, not from IKEA. So it's interesting you bring this up, specifically the Matter aspect of it, right? Because I recently tried— so I've, I've had some relative success with Matter devices that are plugged in. Um, so I've maybe connected 3 or 4 different Matter devices that that have constant power and have not had an issue with those. I, my, my theory there is that part of it is because those are sort of higher, um, higher capability Matter devices that are sort of, you know, up the chain and are capable of, of more communication and et cetera, et cetera. What I have struggled with specifically, I got an Aqara, uh, door and window sensor and for the life of me could not get it to— and I, you know, I know all the tricks, I, uh, or many of the tricks at least, and tried so many different ways, ways that, you know, they're not going to have in the, the owner's manual. Yeah, exactly. And nothing was working, which was very frustrating, uh, to get it to work. And so I ended up just having to, uh, pivot to a— I basically purchased a Ring door sensor that would typically go on a door that is for your, you know, entering and leaving your home and put that where I needed it inside the home because I just wanted, you know, one little instance of this notification happening.

Mikah Sargent [00:09:19]:
And so yeah, that was, that was a little frustrating. And it was the first time that I sort of since the new way of things where Matter is supposed to be sort of, it's figured out, folks, or it's mostly figured out, where I said, okay, maybe it's not figured out. So yeah, haven't had it with IKEA, but certainly have experienced similar issues when it came to this. I'm also curious, and perhaps you'll talk about, like, I assume given your branding, Smart Home Mama, that you hear from folks all the time So this Smarter Home, I think you said?

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:10:01]:
Smarter House.

Mikah Sargent [00:10:01]:
Smarter House.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:10:02]:
Sorry, I said it wrong. But great name.

Mikah Sargent [00:10:04]:
Yeah, absolutely great name. Has experienced people talking about this? Have you as well?

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:10:10]:
Yeah, so I started to see a lot of chatter right after the devices were released on the Tradfri Reddit forum. And Tradfri was the name of IKEA's previous smart home incarnation, which is based on Zigbee. So this move to Thread was a big one. It was a complete rearchitecture for the platform and for IKEA. And, you know, I should make it clear here that this, whilst this is a problem that IKEA is experiencing, it's amplified because IKEA is such a big brand and well-known. And so many people obviously have gone out and bought these. Not as many people go out and buy Aqara motion sensors, is my guess, than IKEA motion sensors. You know, it's a much simpler product to get.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:10:55]:
You know, it's a mass market product. Whereas most smart home products aren't there yet. One of the, So the point that I'm trying to make is that these problems aren't just IKEAs. This is a problem for the Standard as a whole. And it's a problem I've been writing about since the Standard launched. And they keep saying, you know, we're fixing it, we're fixing it. One of the issues I think is that so many diff— there's so many different platforms, like that quote I read from the Thread group. There's so many different pieces and parts that need to interact to make everything work.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:11:25]:
And like Apple, Google, Amazon, they're all on different versions of Matter. Products that you buy are all on different versions of Matter. They're on different versions of Thread. And like, so getting everything to sort of mesh, haha, 'cause that's the point of Thread, it's a mesh network, is causing a lot of problems. Now this is probably down to the fact that this is still a relatively new protocol and a standard. So I said, what is it, 4 years? I think 2022 is when it launched. So, you know, In the scheme of things, that's new. If you think about when Bluetooth and Wi-Fi first came out, it took a long time for things to just work.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:12:02]:
But it's just, yeah, it's frustrating for users to have these complicated, you know, these frustrating setup processes and no obvious way to fix it. I mean, and my favorite thing when I was going through all this testing was I— this is the instruction manual that comes with the Bill Raiser remote. Oh wow. It's like, okay, so my remote didn't work, now what do I do? Follow these little stick men on the piece of paper that came in the box. And it's like, I can understand why people have been getting frustrated. Um, you know, IKEA is— it's the joke, isn't it, that the IKEA manuals are like, yeah, indecipherable? Try putting wireless connectivity along with an IKEA manual and you can get a recipe for tearing your hair out. So it's, yeah, it's been, it's been an interesting thing to follow the last couple of months. From what I understand, talking to sort of people in the industry, there is a lot of work going on behind the scenes to try and fix this.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:13:05]:
I'm hoping to have an update on that next week to follow up to this article. But yeah, it's, it's, as someone who's covered this space for a long time, this was very exciting. A real sea change for the smart home. And so far it's been very frustrating and that's disappointing. I mean, I'm glad for the people that have had good experiences here. That shows that this can work, but it needs to be, as the title of my article implies, this needs to be good for everyone. This can't just be hit or miss. We can't roll out these kind of products and promise this great seamless interoperable experience and it only works for like, 60% of people.

Mikah Sargent [00:13:49]:
Absolutely. I mean, I agree wholeheartedly because that, that puts people off and they don't want to try it again and be disappointed by it. And it puts forth a narrative that, you know, smart home stuff is too complicated and doesn't work. And that's— and, and I think that one of the quickest ways I see people get frustrated with technology is when they feel— because I think that there's even some patience that people will still maintain when something isn't working. It's specifically when they feel they cannot fix it themselves that things go from, you know, not 0 to 100, but like 40 to 100 real quick. And so that is frustrating, this idea that, okay, You are not going to be able to fix this yourself and good luck. And then you have to go online and find something. And then half the time, the stuff that you find doesn't always solve the problem.

Mikah Sargent [00:14:56]:
And then you're stuck with this.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:14:57]:
And there's so much out there. It's like, turn off IPv6 or turn on IPv6 on your router. Do a dance, turn off this one, spin around 5 times and flick the button.

Mikah Sargent [00:15:08]:
It's like, ah, yes.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:15:10]:
This should not be the solution. And I, you know, one of the, The conclusions I draw from my opinion for all of this is that one of the biggest problems here is the platform support. Platforms being Apple Home, Google Home, Amazon Alexa, Home Assistant. I mean, Home Assistant's the most progressive in all of this, but even, you know, it's hard to keep everything straight. And I think right now Apple, the big platforms, Samsung SmartThings, Apple Home, Google Home, they just haven't really committed enough to this. I think maybe the the people that are deeply involved have, but whether the companies are really pushing this forward as a whole, still, I still remain skeptical that that's happening. And that's why we're stalling. And this is why, you know, standards need momentum in order to become, you know, what every— to become a standard, to become the standard of the smart home.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:16:08]:
And that momentum just feels like it's falling away and it could be tied On Apple's side, to its slow rollout of its new Siri, I feel like that is causing a lot of knock-on delays. I mean, we just saw reported this week that the head of Apple Home Hardware has left and gone to Oura, the Ring people. Am I saying that right? Oura.

Mikah Sargent [00:16:31]:
I would pronounce it Oura, but it's funny. I've got another British individual who also says Oura. So maybe it's just, yeah, an accent thing.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:16:41]:
So yeah, it's— It's still, you know, interoperability is, is still a dream. Um, but I think things like this will hopefully, you know, light a fire under some of these platforms because it's such a big high-profile product launch that has been going not very smoothly and that a few people kind of have egg on their face here. Um, so we'll see. I will be following this closely, and if you want more, I've written a few articles about this already and I will be writing more, so keep following my work at The Verge. And you can— and let me know if you've been having great experiences or difficult experiences with these products or any Thread or Matter products, because this is, this is something I'm really interested in sort of getting, getting a deep— deeper into and, and understanding what these issues are, even if they're going to start making me tear my hair out.

Mikah Sargent [00:17:30]:
Well, while we give Jen a moment to brush the hair she has left, let's take a quick break here so I can tell you about the our first sponsor of this episode of Tech News Weekly. It's OutSystems, the number one AI development platform. OutSystems helps businesses bridge the enterprise gap to their agentic future, where the constraints of the past give way to unlimited capacity and scale. See, OutSystems enables them to build AI agents that can actually do work. They can take actions, make decisions, integrate with data, rather than just answer questions. OutSystems provides the only AI development platform that is unified, agile, and enterprise-proven. When we talk about unified, you can build, run, and govern apps and agents in one platform. For agility, you can innovate at the speed of AI without compromising quality or control.

Mikah Sargent [00:18:26]:
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Mikah Sargent [00:19:31]:
Thank you, OutSystems, for sponsoring this week's episode of Tech News Weekly. All right, we are back from the break, joined by Jennifer Pattison Tuohy of The Verge, who is drinking out of her Duff cup.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:19:45]:
I just realized I had this and I, I just grabbed it from my cupboard without thinking. I got— it was my son's birthday present. Isn't it fun?

Mikah Sargent [00:19:54]:
That is a wonderful cup. May or may not be having a beer right now. So I wanted to talk about something that we covered, uh, earlier, the NVIDIA GTC conference. During that event, NVIDIA showed off a tool, DLSS 5. It calls it the most significant breakthrough in computer graphics since real-time ray tracing, which of course was released back in 2018. And the internet immediately roasted it. DLSS 5, the next generation of the company's deep learning upscaling scaling technology moves beyond sharpening resolution and filling in frames to something a little more ambitious and unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your take, far more controversial. It uses generative AI to completely overhaul lighting, textures, and materials in real time, and the results have gamers, developers, and artists recoiling.

Mikah Sargent [00:20:56]:
As Kyle Orland reports for Ars Technica and Andrew Webster writes in The Verge, At the launch of GeForce Now's next-gen merge, what Nvidia pitched as photo-real lighting and materials landed more like an unwanted Instagram filter slapped on top of beloved game characters, turning them into what one commenter described as, quote, "Yassified, looks-maxed freaks." So let's—

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:21:18]:
Gotta love commenters.

Mikah Sargent [00:21:20]:
They are the best. I love it. I love it. So let's talk about what DLSS 5 actually does, why the backlash has been so swift, and what it might mean for the future of how games look. I think it's important to understand this is like the con— when I heard people talking about this, this is the context that I think is a little bit important. Uh, previous versions of DLSS, which actually stands for Deep Learning Super Sampling, just worked on fo— or worked on upscaling lower resolution frames or generating entirely new ones that would help kind of smooth out performance. But this 5th version goes further. Uh, Jensen Huang called it a real-time neural rendering model and one that can deliver a new level of photoreal computer graphics previously only achieved in Hollywood visual effects.

Mikah Sargent [00:22:06]:
So the company says that the technology melds generative AI with what they call hallucinated rendering, uh, for this leap in realism as they see it, and will at the same time, the company very much asserts, preserve the control artists need for creative expression. Now, uh, the existing generative video models And you sort of— Nvidia talks about how it's difficult to control them and you don't get a predictability. And so with DLSS 5, the company really focused on this to make sure that it uses a game's internal color and motion vectors as kind of anchors and will output to this 3D content. So what does that mean? It means that it's a little bit more anchored in reality and is not as focused on that hallucination part to make it so that things feel like they're still part of the game. Um, it's supposed to help the system kind of differentiate as well between characters and then the hair and the fabric and skin and then also environmental lighting conditions.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:23:20]:
But I'm seeing all of these in the Discord.

Mikah Sargent [00:23:25]:
Yeah, the Discord images are cracking me up. Um, here's the Here's the other catch though. Apparently the current demo that we've seen requires two RTX 5090 GPUs and one of those GPUs is entirely dedicated to running DLSS 5. Oh my God. So yeah, it requires quite a bit. John, can we please show the Discord? Because someone has DLSS 5'd Leo. And that is cracking me up. Oh my goodness.

Mikah Sargent [00:24:02]:
If you are not watching and listening, you got to join the club because you got to see these hilarious— it was actually Anthony who shared it. But anyway, DLSS 5 is getting lots of— oh no— is getting lots of complaints for, as they say, yassifying people. Now, I first, I don't— I, I'm just curious, uh, Jen, are you or anyone close to you— I, I just want to imagine you playing like Call of Duty and just being really good at Call of Duty. It just would be so fun to me. Um, but tell me, is anyone— are you or anyone else, uh, gamers?

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:24:44]:
My son is a big gamer. In fact, I should have kept him. He was here a second ago. I should have put him on the show. And he's a big— he's a big, um, Oh, Grand Theft Auto.

Mikah Sargent [00:24:54]:
Oh, okay.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:24:55]:
Yeah, that's his, his jive, jam. Um, and my daughter is too, but not— she doesn't do the scary ones. I don't let her. She really wants to, but she's doing the Fortnite thing now. She's kind of hit that age.

Mikah Sargent [00:25:07]:
Yeah.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:25:08]:
Um, but you know, the, the filter thing is the interest for me. I mean, it is the, the sort of uncanny valley here of what we're seeing. And having watched video games change so drastically— yes, my youth, I was a big gamer, as in I played a lot of Mario. Um, very different.

Mikah Sargent [00:25:31]:
Okay, we're equal. Yeah, then we are both those kinds of gamers.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:25:36]:
Computer gaming too, like some— like, I loved games when— computer games when I was a kid. But you know, this was in the— I'm talking like in the '80s, um, when it was like little 8-bit things going on. And I walk in on my son playing Grand Theft Auto, I'm like, are you in a movie?

Mikah Sargent [00:25:52]:
Right?

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:25:52]:
It's so photorealistic, it's like crazy. And actually, he's been doing Flight Simulator because he's training to be a pilot. I mean, you may as well— it's as good as flying a plane. It's like insane how much video games have progressed and become so realistic. But I'm almost— it's almost like you're kind of losing the game when it becomes like real life. Like, the game part of it, you went into this world, it was an experiential, and it's not real. And this sort of shift towards realism and like, I should feel like I'm actually in the real world rather than playing a video game, I'm not a fan of. I think, you know, that's not— I'm not a gamer, so I cannot speak authoritatively here, but But my personal opinion here is I want games to feel like games, I want movies to feel like movies, and I want the real world to feel like the real world.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:26:46]:
I don't think that the three should meet. I don't like this uncanny valley-ization of video games, especially as, and I see this with today's youth, being online, being terminally online is so, has become such a big issue. People live their lives online, and when it feels like the real world, it becomes even easier to block out the real world.

Mikah Sargent [00:27:10]:
Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:27:11]:
That's maybe getting a little philosophical here.

Mikah Sargent [00:27:14]:
No, but I think it's important. I do. I like— that is absolutely a part of it. I think that, you know, when I've seen the reactions to this, so I've tried to take in sort of the different observations and understandings of this. And I did see somebody who who was talking about this experience and saying that people are really focused on the faces and NVIDIA's people. I mean, what would you expect but for them to have reasons why people should calm down and be okay with it. But I thought they made a very good point in saying that, um, you know, for the longest time, environments, particularly lighting, uh, has come a long way. And so there's been so much focus on the environment getting this ultra-realistic look, and it's just now switched to focusing on faces.

Mikah Sargent [00:28:14]:
And given people's reaction anytime their phones get updated to a new look or feel, it's not surprising that people would be more apt to be, to have negative thoughts about this simply because it is new, as opposed to it being that the faces are— the face rendering is bad or gross or this or that. Could it be, they argue, they ask, that simply what's happening here is you're seeing something different in your brain because of the way that we are, um, goes, that's new, that's different, and so I don't like it by default because it's giving me these bad feelings of anxiety because it's new. So I, I get that point. Um, somebody said that honestly it's a mistake to focus on the faces. Uh, when they were looking at a scene, they said that it was much more amazing to look at the background and see how a table scene, a table setting, uh, before was sort of flat and one-dimensional within this 3D space. But because of this rendering, it made every individual object feel like the person had taken time to almost write a story for every single piece or item that's on the table. And I think that that part is cool to me in this idea of if the artist is able to focus on What the artist is really good at and the parts that would otherwise just be a, well, we just got to, you know, let it be standard that that could be improved by this system. That's kind of a cool idea to me.

Mikah Sargent [00:30:09]:
And so I'm not fully 100% anti, um, but it's also true that I'm not a big gamer, right? Like I don't, I don't do a lot of gaming and my partner is and. He had quite a few thoughts about this. It doesn't help that, uh, one of the— I think this is another aspect of it too, is that people all identify with their favorite games and their sort of favorite franchises. And a lot of people, big fans of Resident Evil. So for Nvidia to show these Resident Evil characters sort of redone with the YASIfied filter, that was particularly upsetting for people who said, now Grace is— who's a character— doesn't look anything like Grace. And so yeah, I guess I'm of two minds in the sense that I almost like the earlier versions of DLSS where it was specifically focused on, um, hardware that maybe couldn't that don't do all of the magic, being able to do more magic by way of a post-processing filter, right? Versus before where maybe this game wasn't, or this console wasn't able to render something like this. There's always going to be, and I think reasonably so, complaints around the AI slop, around stealing people's creations around—

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:31:51]:
I think that's where this is coming from a lot, isn't it? Right. People are really like, there's just a backlash against AI in general in every field. And I think, yeah, in the comments I've seen, some people are like, why are you, what's the problem? This is great. But others are like, oh, this is the slippery slope. And is it all going to be, what happens to the creatives? And yeah, there's There's an instinctive sort of negative reaction to changes like this. And I don't know that that— it's going to be a while, isn't it, until people actually see this? This isn't sort of like happening tomorrow. Right.

Mikah Sargent [00:32:26]:
I mean, if it requires those two cards and one of them completely devoted to rendering this, then yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're not going to get a PlayStation that has, you know, the the necessary hardware to pull this off right now. And I think more than that, you're not going to see, uh, game development studios doing this, uh, right now because it's just not feasible or possible. And I think that, uh, in and of itself, the company said that this technology won't be ready until the fall, but I think ready versus sort of—

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:33:04]:
Deployed on—

Mikah Sargent [00:33:05]:
Yeah, deployed and industry ready are two different things for sure.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:33:09]:
Yeah. No, it's gonna be interesting to follow. I mean, we have a great reporter. I mean, Andrew is a great gaming reporter, but Jess Weatherbed is a reporter on The Verge who's been following sort of the impact of AI on creators and creative industries. And she has some great reporting on all across the, board about backlash to AI in the creative world. And, you know, there's always this balance, isn't there? Like, how much benefit are we getting? How much value is this giving the user versus, you know, the— what you're losing, what you are potentially losing? And I think changing the creativity or changing the characteristics of a fictional character in a game has far less concern and implications than you know, the deep, uh, deepfake videos that we're seeing of like actually using real people. Um, so, you know, I think— I feel like this is definitely a very niche concern and a niche focus.

Mikah Sargent [00:34:10]:
Yes, that's a good point.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:34:11]:
But I do think, um, it's one that— it's a very passionate, uh, um, niche. Game— gamers and gamers— gaming and gamers are, you know, very passionate about their craft. So I can see why this is upsetting people with its potential, even though it's not actually deployed yet. So we'll see whether this turns any of those smaller gaming companies off of trying to start implementing any of this type of technology, even if they can. I mean, it's hard enough right now, isn't it?

Mikah Sargent [00:34:43]:
Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot more in these. I pulled from two pieces, uh, ArsTechnica and The Verge. The Verge's Andrew Webster and ArsTechnica's, uh, Kyle Orland, as I mentioned. So go check those out to learn more about DLSS 5 and the blowback therein. Jennifer Pattison Tuohy, thank you so very much for being here today. It's always a pleasure to get to chat with you and learn about cool new things going on in your life. If people would like to stay keep up to date with the work that you're doing, where should they go to do so?

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:35:26]:
Just most of my work you can find on theverge.com/author/jenniferpattison2e. You can see all my articles. And I have a new episode of "Verge in History" podcast that will be coming out in a couple of weeks, which is one of The Verge's new podcasts. And it's a deep dive on the origins of the Echo and Alexa. So if you're interested in that, be sure to subscribe to the Virgin History podcast and follow me on the socials at Smart Home Mama.

Mikah Sargent [00:35:57]:
Awesome. Thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it.

Jennifer Pattison Tuohy [00:36:00]:
Thanks. Bye.

Mikah Sargent [00:36:01]:
Bye-bye. Alrighty, folks, we're going to take another break. Before we come back with an interview, I want to tell you about Pebl bringing you this episode of Tech News Weekly. Here's a question for you. Are you hiring in another country right now? Because once you do, things can get complicated fast, but that is where Pebl can help. You can send offers to anyone in the world in minutes and get them onboarded fast. See, Pebl is an AI-powered global human resources platform built for founders, HR leaders, and operators who are hiring and supporting teams around the world. Pebl helps you hire, pay, and manage talent in over 185 countries with fast onboarding that can be done in minutes.

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Mikah Sargent [00:37:43]:
Pebl's new standard discounted pricing at $399 USD per month per employee helps you contain costs. Go to hipebl.ai to get a free estimate. That's hipebl.ai for a free estimate. And we thank Pebl for sponsoring this week's episode. Of Tech News Weekly. All right, we are back from the break, and as I promised, here's an interview I recorded earlier this morning. A powerful new iPhone hacking technique called Dark Sword has been found in the wild, and it's not just a threat to high-profile targets— it could affect hundreds of millions of devices. Discovered by researchers at Google and more, Dark Sword has already been tied to campaigns and surveillance.

Mikah Sargent [00:38:27]:
It works simply by luring a phone to an infected website. Here to break it all down for us is Wired's Andy Greenberg. Welcome to the show, Andy.

Andy Greenberg [00:38:36]:
Glad to be here.

Mikah Sargent [00:38:37]:
Yeah, pleasure to have you join us. Now I've got a few questions for you, and I was hoping that we could kind of kick things off, uh, for folks who may not be familiar with how iPhone hacking has traditionally worked. I was kind of curious, could you please walk us through what made these kinds of exploits so rare in the past, and then what's changed now with the discovery of of Dark Sword?

Andy Greenberg [00:39:01]:
Well, I mean, to put it simply, hacking an iPhone is still very difficult. The iPhone has great defenses. It also has very restrictive rules about what you can install. I mean, if you're not jailbreaking your phone, then you can only install apps from Apple's App Store. And that makes it very difficult to get a piece of malware onto an iPhone or really to hack it in any way. I mean, what we've seen really in recent years until now is that iPhone hacking is this kind of extremely rare and very, very targeted phenomenon where the victims are usually people like opposition politicians or activists or journalists or human rights defenders, usually in countries with dictatorial authoritarian regimes that target those kinds of high-risk users. And the victims are very limited to these few individuals because those regimes don't want to burn their techniques, essentially. They don't want those very rare and expensive iPhone hacking techniques to be discovered, which would result in those hacking techniques being patched by Apple and also in the hacking campaign itself being exposed.

Andy Greenberg [00:40:14]:
So we even talked about talked about, uh, kind of iPhone hacking as almost like it was like a rare unicorn in recent years. And that's, you know, kind of backed up by the fact that maybe the most famous iPhone hacking exploit is known as Pegasus, you know, created by NSO Group, this kind of hacker-for-hire firm. And I think that's all changing with these couple of recent iPhone hacking incidents that I think we'll get into.

Mikah Sargent [00:40:42]:
Yeah, so Dark Sword doesn't require this is interesting, a user to click a link or download anything, which I think makes it, uh, something we got to be paying attention to. Apparently you just have to visit an infected website. So can you tell us a little bit about how that works technically? And then I think more importantly, if you're not sort of taking initiative there, what kind of data is actually able to be stolen from the device in this instance?

Andy Greenberg [00:41:08]:
Right, well, as I was saying, you know, what makes this whole incident so different from what we've seen in recent years is that this was what's known as a watering hole attack, where the hacking technique is planted in a website. And if you simply visit that website, then your phone is compromised. So the hackers are choosing a website where they're essentially attacking everybody who goes to that watering hole, as we call it in cybersecurity. So that means that This technique is what people call a one-click exploit, meaning that you can't simply choose a target and hack their phone without any interaction from them. They have to visit a website. But once they do, their phone is silently and completely taken over. And I can't promise to say that I can truly explain how this hacking technique works. It is absolutely incredible the level of technical sophistication that's necessary to fully take over an iPhone.

Andy Greenberg [00:42:05]:
But Google has said that Dark Sword, this particular exploit, contains 6 different vulnerabilities. And that allowed it to exploit WebKit, the basis of iOS browsers, and then break out of the sandbox that is meant to contain the security of the browser and prevents any kind of intrusion technique from breaking out of the browser and getting into data on the rest of the phone. Then it has to do a kind of privilege escalation to get kind of like beyond user access to essentially what we would call in a Windows operating system admin access, like access to the full phone. And then it does, yeah, it does exfiltrate essentially every kind of data you can imagine from the phone. It grabs photos, browser history, passwords, calendar data, and notes data. It even takes like Apple Health data from the phone. And maybe the most interesting thing is that— or strange, I should say— is that it also steals cryptocurrency credentials to be able to drain crypto wallets that might be stored on the phone. So everything else about this looks like kind of typical espionage.

Andy Greenberg [00:43:16]:
And in fact, Google has tied this to what they say is a Russian state-sponsored espionage actor group. But that cryptocurrency theft part of it is weird. And it seems like like, you know, maybe it is a sign that these Russian spies were also moonlighting as cyber criminals, which is certainly not unheard of. It's something we have seen in the past as well.

Mikah Sargent [00:43:38]:
Now, another thing that I think really stuck out to me, uh, one of the most alarming details, is that this code apparently was just accessible, well documented. Um, can you tell us kind of, uh, what do we understand about the hackers behind this and, and kind of If people are suddenly becoming aware, right, of the exploit market, um, what would you tell them about what they need to kind of be mindful of and understand is going on out there?

Andy Greenberg [00:44:11]:
Well, that is in fact probably the most disturbing thing about the Dark Sword exploit is how sloppily it was used by these Russian hackers who deployed it. It was, it was embedded on Ukrainian websites. Sites. Clearly, you know, Russians target Ukrainians almost obsessively. Like, this is, you know, the, uh, Ukrainians are the number one hacking target of any Russian spy agency. So that's not surprising. But they put it on these Ukrainian websites, including a government website and news websites, in a form where it could so easily be grabbed by any hacker and reused. The— it was fully, you know, not obfuscated.

Andy Greenberg [00:44:45]:
You could read all of the code. You could even read the comments from the developer of Dark Sword explaining how to use different pieces of it. So, you know, that makes it really all too easy for another hacker group to simply pull down this exploit if they can find it on one of these websites and start reusing it themselves to, you know, in fact, to target any victims that they choose.

Mikah Sargent [00:45:07]:
And then there's apparently a connection here between one hacking toolkit and another. I was hoping you kind of talk a little bit about that that was discovered. What do we understand about the origins of Dark Sword and the perhaps the origins of this latest round of, of hacking toolkits?

Andy Greenberg [00:45:34]:
Right, so this kind of whole news cycle began with the discovery of a different iOS iPhone hacking technique called Caruna. So earlier this month, uh, Google and iVerify, the cybersecurity company focused on smartphones, revealed this iPhone hacking toolkit, actually a whole collection of iPhone hacking techniques called Corona, which was even more sophisticated than Dark Sword and was being used, again, on these Ukrainian websites in a similar web-based attack. But what was interesting about Corona, in part, is that despite it being used by Russians, it was written by English-language developers, and it shared similarities shared pieces of features, essentially, with this thing called triangulation, an older iPhone hacking technique that was discovered in 2023 and attributed by the Russian government to the US government. So— and then subsequently, just last week, TechCrunch reported that, in fact, Caruna was created by this US contractor called Trenchant, part of this larger contract contractor firm L3Harris. So it appears that Caruna was actually created for the US government and leaked to foreign adversaries, in this case Russian spies. It was then used by for-profit cybercriminals who were targeting Chinese crypto users to steal their cryptocurrency. So that is actually the beginning of this story. Then just this week, you know, IVerify, Google Lookout, another cybersecurity firm, found that the same Russian hackers were also using Dark Sword.

Andy Greenberg [00:47:06]:
So that's really how Dark Sword has come to light is because of the scrutiny around this one Russian spy group that was using this other hacking technique called Corona that was a US-origin technique. I mean, this is a very rare and troubling phenomenon when a sophisticated hacking technique is created for the US government to carry out surveillance and then leaks and is used by foreign adversaries and cybercriminals. It kind of calls into question whether it's safe for our tax dollars to be used to create hacking techniques that are then, you know, used against innocent victims by, you know, rogue actors.

Mikah Sargent [00:47:45]:
Now, this, I think, is an interesting aspect of the, the system as well. You talk about this being this, you know, fileless approach. That's a term that, you know, it's sort of the, the writing is there on the tin, but can you tell us, um, a little bit about why this matters in terms of detection, and then What does this mean in— for someone whose phone has actually been compromised?

Andy Greenberg [00:48:11]:
Right, well, and, you know, Karuna, of the two of these techniques, was definitely more sophisticated, but Dark Sword is interesting in that it is, as you said, a kind of fileless— fileless technique, meaning it doesn't leave behind a kind of spyware payload on the phone that can be, you know, easily found and analyzed as I realized afterwards, it uses the phone's own processes to grab this data. And it doesn't actually implant a piece of malware, an application on the phone that does all of this dirty work of stealing the data. So that means that it actually doesn't persist on the phone. If you restart your phone, it's gone, which is actually maybe an important thing to note for potential victims. If you are worried about a Dark Sword infection on your phone, simply restart it. In fact, a lot of iOS malware does not have that persistence to survive a reboot. But what it does do essentially is what the CEO of iVerify, Rocket Kohl, described to me as a kind of smash-and-grab attack, where it just steals all the data in the first few minutes, exfiltrates it to some hacker's server, and the data is gone. And that's certainly damaging enough.

Andy Greenberg [00:49:21]:
And then I should say, despite this kind of smash-and-grab description, And this is also very stealthy. Fileless malware does not leave behind a lot of artifacts that can be easily used to detect a Dark Sword intrusion. So that's really what's troubling about this is that it's quite difficult to know if you have been victimized if you don't know exactly where to look. I mean, iVerify and Lookout both say that their apps are capable of of finding a Dark Sword intrusion. But that's probably based on very specific clues and tells of this use of that hacking technique. And I would imagine that with a few tweaks, somebody else could repurpose this same iOS exploit and use it in a way that would be undetectable.

Mikah Sargent [00:50:12]:
Yes. And one of the things that kind of stuck out to me is that we still have a significant number of iPhone owners running iOS 18. Um, do you have anything to say about maybe what's driving the gap here and how it sort of factors into the risk given that those exploits exist on what is now an older operating system?

Andy Greenberg [00:50:37]:
Right. I mean, I should say, I should say really clearly here that if you have updated your phone to iOS 26, Darkstore does not affect your phone. It works on iOS 18. Caruna works on older versions of iOS, iOS 13 through 17. So these are not what we would call zero-day exploits. But it was kind of surprising to me as I heard about this just how many iPhones out there remain on iOS 18 in particular. It's really almost like— it could be as many as a quarter of all iPhones. And that seems to be— I'm not like— I'm not an Apple nerd who obsessively tracks adoption rates of every operating system version, but it does seem like the adoption of iOS 26 has been slower than usual because people actually hate this Liquid Glass interface and other iOS changes that I don't have very strong feelings about.

Andy Greenberg [00:51:33]:
But for whatever reason, people have remained on iOS 18. And that's very dangerous in this case. You now have to choose. It seems, and this is like the response from many people reading my article about this, between essentially like, you know, these, what people kind of think are like, you know, these crappy new iOS features that they don't like, I guess because they're sort of slow and overly animated, or the threat of Russian spyware. So that is not like a happy decision to have to make, but I do think that people need to update their iPhones. I think that this is a serious hacking technique that more than maybe any that I remember ever hearing about is likely to proliferate and to be used against Western victims, not just Ukrainians. In fact, I should say Dark Sword has been used against Ukrainians, Turkish people, Saudi Arabians, Malaysians already by various hacker groups according to Google. And given how easily reusable it is, it seems like it's only a matter of time until it starts to hit us in the United States, in the West, for any kind of, you know, espionage or for-profit hacking, just given how easy it is to repurpose this for whatever motive hackers may have.

Mikah Sargent [00:52:54]:
Lastly, I would love to know, uh, given that we're now seeing these kinds of exploits deployed indiscriminately rather than against these carefully chosen targets. What do you think that shift means for the average iPhone user who might have said, you know what, I don't need to really worry about this, this isn't an issue for me?

Andy Greenberg [00:53:13]:
Well, you know, iVerify and Lookout, you know, being mobile cybersecurity companies, would say that it means that you need to think of your iPhone as something you need to actively protect. I'm, you know, I still, um, I hesitate to tell people you have to run antivirus on your phone the way you do on a Windows machine. I think we're on the cusp of that perhaps. I do myself use these apps on my phone. I'm a journalist who worries about these more targeted attacks. It may be that we are on the horizon of a world where everybody has to worry in the same way. I think most importantly, and this is what Apple wanted to stress, is that you need to keep your phone updated. Enable auto updates of iOS.

Andy Greenberg [00:54:00]:
Even if you don't like Liquid Glass, I think it's worth it to keep your phone protected. And Apple is not doing a bad job of that. They patched these attacks as soon as they found out about them. They've even pushed out patches for older versions of their devices that can't run the latest operating systems. So they're taking this seriously, but users do have to enable those updates. So I would say from a user perspective, that's one— it's important to update your phone. I would say that actually it's Apple maybe who really also need to change their mentality about this. I mean, Apple keep just kind of rhetorically saying that iPhones are so well defended that the only attacks we've ever seen against them are extremely targeted against just a few individuals.

Andy Greenberg [00:54:48]:
They say this publicly after most instances of iOS malware. And that does not seem to be the case anymore. They need to actually help raise the awareness that normal people are also getting hit by these attacks, these extremely indiscriminate attacks. If you so much as visited the wrong website, then you would have had your phone hacked in all of these cases. That's a new reality, and Apple needs to acknowledge it.

Mikah Sargent [00:55:15]:
Absolutely. Well, Andy, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. I think this is an incredibly important story, and I'm glad that you were able to be here to tell us about it. If people would like to follow you online and check out the work that you're doing, where are the places they should go to do so?

Andy Greenberg [00:55:31]:
You can follow me on Blue Sky. I'm A. Greenberg on Blue Sky, and of course on wired.com. And we also have a YouTube series that I host these days called Hack Lab. That you can subscribe to on YouTube.

Mikah Sargent [00:55:43]:
Awesome. I'm looking forward to checking that out. Thank you again for your time, and hopefully we'll see you again soon.

Andy Greenberg [00:55:49]:
Thank you, Micah.

Mikah Sargent [00:55:51]:
All right, thanks so much to Andy, uh, for joining us earlier today. Uh, we will head into my final story of the week, but before we do, I want to tell you all about Club Twit at twit.tv/clubtwit. That is where you go to sign up, or you can also just use that QR code in the top corner there. When you head there and subscribe, $10 a month, $120 a year, you gain access to some pretty awesome benefits. First and foremost, you gain access to every single one of our shows ad-free. It's just the content. You also gain access to some special feeds. That's right.

Mikah Sargent [00:56:26]:
You will get to check out our feed that has behind the scenes before the show, after the show. You'll also gain access to our feed that has live— our live coverage of tech news events like the recent NVIDIA GTC, and access to a feed that has our club shows like my Crafting Corner, just did an episode yesterday, and Stacy's Book Club, plus so much more. If all of that sounds good to you, great. twit.tv/clubtwit. If you'd like more, well, I've got it. You also get an invite to our wonderful Discord, a fun place to go to chat with your fellow Club Twit members and those of us here at Twit. Again, twit.tv/clubtwit. Look forward to seeing you in the club.

Mikah Sargent [00:57:10]:
Back from the break, and I just wanted to mention there's some stuff going on in the self-driving car world. NHTSA is continuing to monitor the situation, as it were, the push toward hands-free driving is frankly running up against some turbulence. A series of reports from The Wall Street Journal written by Ryan Felton, Ben Glickman, and Dawn Nico Forbes paints a troubling picture of where automated driving technology stands right now. Internal documents from Ford reveal the company knew drivers were confused by its Blue Cruise system well before launching it. And Tesla's Full Self-Driving system is under an escalating federal investigation after crashes in poor visibility conditions. And just today, NHTSA expanded that Tesla probe to cover 3.2 million vehicles, upgrading it to an, quote, engineering analysis, a step that could lead to a recall. These stories together raise a fundamental question: are automakers moving faster than the technology and the drivers using it can safely handle? Let's start with the Blue Cruise problem, because people, I think, when they hear about full self-driving or self-driving at all, they immediately think of Tesla, Right? Well, other cars are doing this too. And the sort of US darling that is Ford is also part of this.

Mikah Sargent [00:58:36]:
Ryan Felton's deep investigation, which was published earlier this month— or excuse me, earlier this year in February— reveals that Ford actually had extensive internal evidence that drivers misunderstood how hands-free driving systems work, even years before its BlueCruise launched. In June of 2018, Ford conducted a benchmarking study and used GM's Super Cruise system for this. More than 40 people drove a Cadillac CT6 on a Michigan highway, and the results confirmed the company's own concerns that drivers worry they will be too complacent behind the wheel with the system active. The numbers of this 40 people— so what can you really say about a study of 40— were stark. 1 in 4 drivers incorrectly believed that Super Cruise would would reposition the car if it veered out of a lane. So again, they incorrectly believed that using Super Cruise would mean that the car would be repositioned in the lane if it veered out of the lane. 80% of drivers failed to notice the initial flashing green light warning them to resume control. And then a follow-up study of Ford's own developing system in 2019 found that more than half, 60%, of drivers incorrectly believed the technology would steer the vehicle back into its lane if it drifted.

Mikah Sargent [00:59:57]:
So people don't know what self-driving can and can't do. It's still not clear to the driver they are responsible for steering the vehicle back into the lane. That's what the presentation said. Uh, then there were some fatal crashes leading to a federal inquiry. Ford launched BlueCruise in 2021 despite knowing that this was an issue, and the consequences have been severe. In September of that year, in 2021, Barry Wooten was killed in Forsyth, uh, in Georgia after losing control of his F-150. His family said that he was in self-driving mode. His daughter, Wendy Wells, said her father was a lifelong car enthusiast, and so he, of course, wanted the latest and the greatest.

Mikah Sargent [01:00:41]:
In 2024, two more deadly incidents then drew federal attention. In February, a Ford Mustang Mach-E using Blue Cruise struck a stopped Honda CR-V on a San Antonio highway. It did kill the Honda driver. Ford told NHTSA that warnings to take control of the wheel were ignored for 30 seconds before the collision. And then weeks later, another Mach-E that was also using Blue Cruise in a Pennsylvania construction zone slammed into a stopped Hyundai Elantra, pushing it into a Toyota Prius. Both drivers of those vehicles died at the scene. Arguably, this becomes a conversation not of just people understanding self-driving vehicles, but also the deadliness of these gigantic trucks that we have on our highways. But I don't think people want to hear about that, so I'm not going to get into it.

Mikah Sargent [01:01:34]:
Ford maintains that neither accident was caused by its system. The company says these incidents unfortunately illustrate that driving, whether by humans alone or with technology, require adequate time— adequate? No, adequate time to perceive, classify, firm and react to events. So let's talk about what Ford told NHTSA. Ford says, uh, hey NHTSA, BlueCruise's adaptive cruise control was designed to stop decelerating in response to stationary objects when traveling at or above 62 miles per hour. So this is, uh, a feature that's supposed to avoid what's called phantom braking, where the system incorrectly reacts to bridges, overhead signs, or other objects that aren't actually in the roadway. So other safety features like automatic emergency braking are functional at higher speeds, but the design choice means the system may not slow down for a stopped vehicle in a travel lane at highway speeds. So to be clear, if the speed of the vehicle is above 62 miles per hour, Blue Cruise's adaptive cruise control does not decelerate upon discovering a stationary object in front of it. So when you're driving even faster and there's a stationary object, it won't slow down.

Mikah Sargent [01:02:58]:
And the idea is that too many times it was detecting a bridge or some other item in front of it that then caused it to slow down. NHTSA's administrator, Jonathan Morrison, said in a January conference, we want to be crystal clear that the systems available in today's vehicles are driver assistance systems. You're driving. And I think that that's important. Like that, yeah, that needs to continue to be the conversation. Now, Ford, of course, is dealing with the Blue Cruise scrutiny, but Tesla NHTSA faces its own escalating federal investigation. In October of 2024, Ben Glickman and once again Don Nikko Forbes reported that NHTSA opened a preliminary evaluation into Tesla's Full Self-Driving system after identifying 4 crashes involving the technology, one in which a Tesla fatally struck a pedestrian. The crashes occurred in these reduced visibility conditions due to sun glare, fog, airborne dust, and the agency started looking to see if the system could even you know, respond whenever it's in those scenarios, because those scenarios are going to come up a lot.

Mikah Sargent [01:04:04]:
That investigation covers an estimated 2.4 million vehicles, all Tesla models that can be equipped with the optional driver assistance software, including certain versions of Model 3, Y, X, and S, as well as the Cybertruck. Now, that is one part of it. The probe came just a week after Tesla's Robotaxi event, where the company outlined its plans to become a robotics and AI-focused business. Elon Musk said Tesla would offer its driverless taxi service only where permitted, but gave no details on navigating regulatory hurdles. Now, as of today, March 19th, 2026, that probe is expanded due to the, uh, escalation of the investigation to an engineering analysis. That means that recalls could result. Uh, the scope again to now 3.2 million vehicles. This has to do with several crashes, including a fatal one where self-driving, full self-driving failed to alert drivers appropriately about reduced visibility conditions.

Mikah Sargent [01:05:06]:
So it needed to say, I can't tell what's going on due to these changes. I almost started to sound like Christopher Walken, but anyway, I can't, I can't tell what's going on with the stuff that's happening outside. And so I need you to take control of, of the wheel. I think if Christopher Walken was telling me to do that, perhaps I'd pay more attention. Tesla, you should be listening to this. Anyway, uh, if this is seen to be enough of a problem, then that does mean that we could be looking at a huge recall. And this has to do in part with Tesla's choice to go with these vision-based setups. No radar, no LiDAR.

Mikah Sargent [01:05:57]:
We still don't really understand Tesla's true thinking here on switching away from radar and LiDAR and only going with vision-based systems. But yeah, not a good idea. Automakers are marketing increasingly sophisticated driver assistance systems systems despite the fact that internal research and, let's be real, real-world crashes show that drivers fundamentally misunderstand what these systems can and can't do. So federal regulators are having to respond, ramping up scrutiny. Unfortunately, automakers continue to push this technology forward. Ford is working toward eyes-off highway driving by 2028, and of course Tesla has claimed full self-driving for a while, but is also working towards fully driverless robotaxis that don't even have steering wheels or brake pedals. The gap between what's being promised and what's been proven and is the actual situation continues to widen. So to those of you out there with vehicles like this, please be mindful, be aware, and don't think of these systems as something that can completely take over driving for you because they just simply are not that.

Mikah Sargent [01:07:13]:
Thank you all, uh, for tuning in to this week's episode of Tech News Weekly. The show publishes every Thursday. twit.tv/tnw, that is where you can go to subscribe if you're not, uh, to the audio and video versions of the show. We'd love to have you join us. Tell other people about the show as well. Uh, if you would like to get, uh, all of our shows ad-free plus so much more, I mentioned Club Twit, twit.tv/clubtwit. If you'd like to follow me online, I'm @micahsargent on many a social media network, or you can head to the now back in, uh, back and functioning chihuahua.coffee.

Mikah Sargent [01:07:49]:
That's chihuahua.coffee where I've got links to the places I'm most active online. Be sure to check out my other shows that'll publish later today, iOS Today and Hands on Apple, as well as Hands on Tech, which publishes every Sunday. Thanks so very much for being here. We'll catch you again soon on a future episode of Tech News Weekly. Bye-bye.