Tech News Weekly 393 Transcript

Please be advised that this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word-for-word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.
 

00:00 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Coming up on Tech News Weekly. Emily Forlini is here and we start off by talking about RFK Jr's plan to get health trackers into the hands of every American. Afterward we talk about how Apple's CarPlay Ultra is trying to make its way into more cars, but maybe those automakers aren't interested in it. Then Kate Nibbs of Wired stops by to talk about some landmark AI copyright wins, before we round things out with Will Saddleburg of 9to5Google, who tells us a little bit about Fairphone's latest, the Fairphone 6. All of that coming up on Tech News Weekly. Stay tuned.

00:42 - TWiT.tv (Announcement)
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00:44 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
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00:46 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
This is twit this is tech news weekly, episode 393, recorded thursday, june 26th 2025. Wearables for every american hello and welcome to tech news weekly, the show where, every week, we talk to and about the people making and breaking that tech news. I am your host, micah sergeant, and I am joined this week at the end of june by emily forlini.

01:18 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
Welcome, emily, it's been a while that was so great hi how you doing I'm doing well.

01:23 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
I'm doing well, thank you.

01:25 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
I'm excited.

01:26 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Oh good, I'm glad, I'm glad. Yeah, I thank you, of course, for your wonderful work. While it just, it just feels like it's been a long time since we've been able to do the show together, so it's great to to be back here together to talk about our stories of the week. Yes, this is the time where Emily and I have both picked out stories, at least in one instance, where someone has written that story and we talk about what's going on. So I will let you take it away.

02:01 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
Okay, so my story of the week is about our friend or foe, depends who you are RFK Jr.

02:06
He is leading the health policy for the nation and he is doing a lot with health trackers. So he, for the past several months, has been reiterating this vision that he wants every American to get a health tracker, like an Apple watch, a smartwatch, a fitness tracker, a piece of consumer tech that you would buy. And just this past week I think it was this week actually he kind of testified or spoke to the House getting approval for his budget and in the Q&A portion he reiterated his vision that quote every American would have a wearable. And he said that they're going to embark on what he called the biggest advertising campaign the agency has ever done to basically, I guess, convince us all to buy, I think, probably Apple Watches they didn't name it that way. People have their brands they like. But it seems like a really big part of his health strategy is to kind of work with these private companies. He met with a group of CEOs who make these products, not Tim Cook, and so, yeah, that's a very different shift. I haven't seen anything like that.

03:16 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, I find it interesting One of the quotes from the piece. My vision is every American is wearing a wearable within four years. They can see what food is doing to their glucose levels, their heart rates and a number of other metrics as they eat it. So about that first one, unless you were talking about the very new but available over-the-counter option for glucose monitors that you can wear on your arm, I don't know, Do we think he's thinking like I could just put an Apple watch on and it tells me my blood glucose levels? Or do you know if he was talking to CEOs of health companies that do? Because I literally have one over here.

03:59
It's lingo from I don't remember, Lingo, I think it's let me see Lingo Glucose. Oh, Abbott, which of course, is a huge glucose tracking company. And I wore the Lingo for however long it was two weeks and just saw what different foods were doing and didn't learn much, because there wasn't much for me to learn, and by that I mean like my blood glucose is pretty average. But it was still an interesting thing. But I don't think a lot of people know about that, so I'm kind of curious Do we think that he's talking about those?

04:45 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
health is so individual. It seems like he's just saying hey, we have these devices that American companies have created. They are really smart, I think, for example, the atrial fibrillation detection, sleep apnea detection. There are a lot of stories out there about how these devices have saved people's lives.

04:59
The one thing that's a little sticky is putting the health in the hands of companies that are incentivized to profit off of it really directly and obviously, and like something I worry about is, you know, there's addiction kind of features in these apps and they actually can harm your mental health as well. Like you're so worried, what is my sleep score in the morning? And there's a lot of, I guess, unhealthy aspects to them too. So if you're telling the whole nation to making this policy like, go and buy these devices from these for-profit companies and then we're going to be a healthier nation, give them your data, maybe they'll give us your data it's a very murky policy, but at the same time, I do think those can be almost like miracle products to help people. So I'm like of two minds about it.

05:47 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, so very much that you know. There are already a couple of places where we've seen something like that kind of bear out. There are some, especially if you get insurance health insurance through your employer here in the United States. Several of them I shouldn't say many, but several of them offer these little things where you hand over your health data in some way. It might be going in and getting a health test done by a doctor. It might be handing over your Apple Watch wearable data. It might be some other thing like getting a little fitness tracker and then, depending on how well you perform or your body performs, you can get discounts on your health insurance. Sometimes it opens you up to other options. You can get it's sort of an incentivized program where you get coupons and things like that. And then we've seen it in car insurance as well.

06:45
There'll be little dongles, as you are very familiar with, but the listeners might not be.

06:50
You plug into your OBD2 port and it looks at how you brake, it looks at how fast you're going, where you're driving, all of that and on the face of it it seems like oh, what we're saying here is, if you choose to drive safely and carefully, then you will get a discount, and that part is true.

07:09
But what people might not realize is A all of that data is being scooped up and sent off and you don't necessarily know where it's going unless you do a lot of digging. But B it also does mean the opposite, that instead of being positive, it can have positive impacts, it can have very negative impacts. And suddenly you are seeing a change in your policy and you don't have any control over it, where, when it exists in a gray area right of not having that physical data, there's less there. Not having that physical data there's you have more standing ground than if they can go. Well, I just saw that you broke hard seven times and that means that you're not a good driver, so we have to you know up your policy. Yeah, that's the part that kind of worries me about this, particularly with an administration that is also so focused on other aspects of health care in the US, that's a little concerning.

08:13 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
Or at least is willing to experiment with alternative, not as proven, like. Some of their strategies are not necessarily based on years of scientific evidence. So it's like in these health trackers. They said bands were tolerable, like, oh, your sleep wasn't good.

08:31
Who says it wasn't good, it's because they set in the tech what defines good sleep, or they set in the tech what defines good exercise and they probably customize it for the person. But it's like they are in a sense, setting standards through these watches or wearables that people now think I'm healthy, I'm not healthy based on that and it's not like people are really in a position to check. Like, how did they develop those ranges and so if the government is going to push out standards through these companies, or like how is that going to work? And there's just a lot of questions.

09:06 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Well, I can remember as a kid being part of some federal program. My mom my mom was a single mom and so she had food assistance for us, and I remember having to go in every couple of months. I think it was. Honestly, I don't remember how often it was, but however often it was, I would have to go in, we would have to go into this office. I was a kid and I can remember how to get my finger pricked and they tested my blood to see that I was getting the nutritional levels that I was supposed to be getting, nutritional levels that I was supposed to be getting and that would have an impact on what assistance we were given and you know what was needed. And when I think about this now we're looking at what. If you know, the only way that you get your food stamps is if you are shown to be taking 10,000 steps a day or something like that. That gets a little frightening. Do you know if the program was?

10:09 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
WIC.

10:10 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, it was WIC.

10:10 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
So my sister works on WIC.

10:12 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Oh, is this a work, the same as it did back when I was a kid? I?

10:15 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
haven't heard about finger pricking. She does a lot of she's more on the research side. So I don't she's not working in the offices but she's working to develop like what would be what would be best to be offered in that program, and I wonder what she would think about all this.

10:28 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, that's the, and I'd love to hear more, I think, from the experts. The problem is, when it comes to this, uh, this kind of story it is, it is coming from certain, uh, certain folks who I think are they've got the ideas that they have and they're going to make it happen, and so you don't necessarily hear the alternative, other than for us, coming from the tech side, just talking about the concerns around privacy. Right, that's a big thing, that easily sticks out.

11:02 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
We work in this so we see all the ways tech companies abuse this stuff. But the other side of the coin could also be. There's just a lot of basic health knowledge a lot of people don't have. Some people might think eating 8,000 calories a day is normal, and if they had a device that was like, hey, actually that's not normal. Actually you should cut it back. There could be benefits.

11:23 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
That's a good. Yeah, we should talk about that side of it, right, yeah? And I agree, I think I have seen for people who do get wearable devices. Of course there are the negatives, there are the sort of anxieties that can come up, but I have also seen sort of transformative experiences, and I think, particularly when it comes to the glucose thing, like that, and and sleep apnea are probably two areas that I really sort of champion in a way, and like yeah, we celebrate your self-identified sleep.

12:02 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
Yes, I am. Yes, these devices, everyone's talking about their sleep.

12:06 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yes, everybody's talking about their sleep and again, there are anxieties there, so much so that there's actually a term for like doctors have now come up with a term for when somebody's sleep scores and their sleep metrics cause them to have worse sleep because they have so much anxiety about it. But outside of that, I do think that, in particular with sleep apnea, a lot of times people just are like oh yeah, I snore. Sleep apnea is frightening because of what it actually does to the physical structures inside of your body and how it changes the pressures in your chest which causes your heart to beat have to beat in a way that is not sort of its natural way of beating, so it can cause your heart muscle to grow stronger in ways that poorly affect you and, of course, less sleep overall. Like there's so much impact there. So more people learning about that and then having something to help them out with it I think is great.

13:11
Heart rhythms you know you may not realize that you have an arrhythmia and being able to have that is cool. So, yeah, I like the idea of people having more access to this. I don't like the idea of the government having more access to this. I don't like the idea of the government having more access to this.

13:28 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
if that ends up being the case, we could just have more health trackers and not have the government involved.

13:33 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
That would be awesome.

13:34 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
Two things they can maybe do more research-based, less collective interest-based public health work. Yeah, it wouldn't happen I think one other angle we didn't discuss is obviously, you know, as part of Trump's whole agenda, they're downsizing a lot of these agencies. So there's huge cuts that RFK Jr is making to the agency and I don't know if the wearables thing is outsourcing some of the work.

13:59 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
That, yeah, if you don't have to have the human bodies kind of keeping track of the metrics, that would already be part of the process. That makes sense. So, yeah, that could be a big part of why this is going on.

14:15 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
I just want to see the ads, Like when people start seeing the ads like we need to talk about it.

14:19 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, let us know. Yeah, if you see them first, I want to know what they look like Is this going to be the new Got Milk? Oh my God, that would be interesting. And also or the new this Is your Brain on Drugs like the PSAs you know what I mean the new Dare.

14:38 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
Yeah, the new Dare, it's got to be something that's like slightly cringy or else it doesn't feel like it came from the government. Yeah, it's going to be like a piece of celery being like kind of wearable.

14:44 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
I love it. I hope that's what it is. It's just celery with eyeballs saying kind of wearable Googly eyes, celery.

14:51 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
All right, love it, all right.

14:52 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
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16:12
All right, we are back from the break. I'm joined by Emily Forlini for this episode of Tech News Weekly, and it is time for my story of the week. Apple's newest in-car interface, carplay Ultra, represents a dramatic expansion of its automotive ambitions, taking over not just infotainment but actually the entire dashboard. And while some automakers are eager to adopt this immersive system honestly, others are hesitant or, in some cases, even resistant. At the heart of the debate is this fundamental question who owns the in-car experience, the automaker or the tech company? And here's the thing about that fundamental question why is there not the third one, which is the person who purchased the car, because that is what it feels like, is the person who ends up suffering in this case? So I want to talk a little bit about CarPlay Ultra, first and foremost in comparison to CarPlay.

17:11
So many people are familiar with CarPlay. I always bring up one aspect of it that I think people don't pick up on. With CarPlay, and also with Android Auto, these systems are not built into your car, and a lot of times that is the thought that you sort of plug in your phone and that's the key to turn it on in your car, and that's not the case. What's happening is your phone is projecting this system into your car, so your phone software has CarPlay built into it or your Android phone has Android Auto built into it and when you plug it in or you connect wirelessly you're pushing that data onto the screen or screens that are available in the car. And that's important because of course that works fundamentally different from the built-in infotainment systems. Those are in the car, those are part of the car software and in many cases, up to this point, what that's meant is the car's software firmware. All works much closer to what the car physically is doing. So things like speedometers and HVAC controls and all of that traditionally have needed to be done by the thing that's built into the car itself, because having any lag when it comes to speedometers, to some of these other controls, is a hazard. But with CarPlay Ultra and the work that the company has done on improving its software in this very particular thing, it's all about that no latency, experience and, of course, working closer with car manufacturers to kind of overlay onto the dashboard experience. So with CarPlay Ultra, speedometers, as I mentioned, hvac controls, radio and media functions are all part of the experience and it kind of overlays onto your car and you get this really Apple-branded UI across the screens. But as it happens and, I think, as it makes sense, a car manufacturer who comes up with a concept and design and everything may feel a type of way about that part of their car being taken over by another company. That's something that you were bringing into the car.

19:40
I want to open this up in just a moment, but really quickly I'll also mention, kind of, where things stand right now. Aston Martin and Porsche are actively adopting this technology. Ford and Audi say that they are planning to adopt it. Hyundai, nissan, Mercedes-Benz, kia, infiniti are saying we're evaluating it, and Volvo, genesis, jaguar, land Rover, polestar and Renault, I think, are saying we're not planning to adopt it. And then, of course, gm and BMW are both going yeah, no, that's not happening at all.

20:19
I wanted to ask you because there are kind of two parts of this, Emily One is that sort of ideological aspect of if you design the thing, do you get to design it from the ground up and do you bear in mind what an end user might want for their vehicle. And then we will also talk in a little bit about the data collection, privacy implications. That also are, I think, part of this conversation. But yeah, your first take on this what you think about the car infotainment systems in general, how you approach it whenever it comes to vehicles like do you like, using what the car provides, et cetera, et cetera.

21:03 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
Yeah, so this is one of my big reporting spaces, so I have a lot of context. So one key thing is Google already has a version of this that it's called Google built in and some car companies have already adopted it, so they have a Google version. That is the dash, is the whole, all the screens. So Apple's really doing a catch up here and saying we're also going to offer that. And you know, I'm sure Google has pitched every car company on the globe to get their experience and also not all of them have gone for it. So this is not a new debate.

21:37
So Volvo and Polestar do have the Google built in and I've been in, you know, their latest vehicles that have that and it looks beautiful, it looks really great. And I interviewed the former Polestar CEO about this and he was like when cell phones became big, everyone was like car dash screens look like caveman tools compared to slick cell phones. So every car company was like we're going to become a tech company and we're going to become a tech company and they're going to hire all these engineers and they're going to make their dash screen just as good as a cell phone and the tech's going to be so much better and he was like but the years have gone by and we're just not that good at it. It just didn't really happen. I mean, tesla put a lot of effort into their dash screen, which is a bit more like that, and he was like we're not great, we do other things, and so we decided to get Google built in because it looks great, it's something our users already are familiar with.

22:36
The maps on the infotainment screen just are Google Maps and it's like great, that's all I really want. So Apple is just coming in with a competitor and that's really what's happening here. So there could be a fork in the road of companies that go for Google, companies that go for Apple, and then companies like Tesla or Rivian or GM or it sounds like BMW are like no, we're still on our own path, we're building our own tech stack, we're going to connect it to the EV battery, we're going to connect it to our mobile app, and they have their own tech vision. So that's kind of the state of the union and they have their own tech vision.

23:15 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
So that's kind of the state of the union. So why do you think Google's has A not kind of been at the crux of the conversation here, given that it did it first and seems to be not as troublesome that it's doing the full in Google car experience? I think this is a weird media.

23:40 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
Like the way the story is evolving, it doesn't really make sense to me and I'm not sure if it's because people are not familiar with Google's product, which is actively in some of the most popular cars. So I'm not sure if people are creating a false tension, or like I haven't read about it, Cause I'm kind of like I don't really understand what's happening here.

24:03 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah. So I mean it's odd because we are seeing, we we have seen car manufacturers like GMC said going forward we're not supporting CarPlay, and what was the other one, BMW? We're not supporting CarPlay. And I've heard from people who said well, I want to use CarPlay in my car. I've used CarPlay for years, I like it and I think too, as you mentioned, it's been the case for so long that those in dash infotainment systems kind of sucked, to put it frankly, and you would do everything you could, anecdotally, to avoid having a conversation with the car sound that sounded like this the worst, yeah, it was horrible and oftentimes you just plug in CarPlay or Android Auto and you're just trying to forget, get it out of the way.

24:57
Exactly.

24:58
So I understand why people are not wanting to, you know, have the built in systems, but I also understand a company wanting to kind of own that experience.

25:13
And I wonder if that maybe is where there's friction, because that's Apple's whole thing is we own every part of the stack and so we make our hardware, we make our software, they combine together, they work so well together, and we think about design and this and that, whereas Google is more obsequious and it's just kind of like oh, we'll be where you choose to be. And so I wonder if there's maybe now that these teams, as you mentioned, have been built up for, like, think about, I think about being a designer or developer working for BMW and my job did not exist maybe to the extent that it does now, 15 years ago, 10 years ago and going forward, I have to continue to make it so that my job is important. And I think part of that is kind of pushing back and saying, oh, no, no, no, we are not ceding ground to Apple, to Google, to whomever. We can do this ourselves and we can do it better. Don't fire me.

26:22 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
Yeah, I think it's that. But it's also more like the car company is now handing over that experience to a non-car company.

26:29
So if you think like Rivian puts a lot of work into its dash and they develop new dash features that Apple would be so far behind on, like really unique ways of calculating range and energy and finding chargers, things like the pet mode. There's a button on the dash, you press that and your whole car turns into like a pet mode. They have all these really fun things. They have you access to different modes, drive modes like through the dash. So their whole experience is custom and if you're going to you couldn't.

27:00
Now you're requesting features to Apple like screw that you know, and you're convincing them oh, add this to your product. So I guess I'm more. That, by the way, is very Apple-like mentality. So the more similar a company is to Apple, probably the less interested they are in this.

27:17 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
That's a good point and that that does bear out. Absolutely, we are running out of time, but I did want to mention another aspect of this that is front of mind for me. I think it was Mozilla, the Mozilla Foundation, that did a study looking at the major car manufacturers and their built-in infotainment systems and looking at the data collection policies of them, and some of them are pretty egregious. There was even one, I think it was. I actually don't want to say who I think it was because that might be inaccurate, but there was one car company who was even collecting data on sexual activity as one of the data points Mozilla Foundation was like. We have no idea how they would know that, what they would be doing to try to determine that, but that was part of the data collection For high schoolers.

28:04
Yeah, exactly, and that is one thing where, or one place where you know, I like using CarPlay over a built-in system, where I at least know the privacy and data collection policies of Apple and what is collected, how it's collected and how it's shared, versus maybe not knowing that for an external or for the car company and what they would want to do with that data. So that's something that I've kind of kept in mind as we look at all of this. But, yeah, when it comes to those really custom designs like you talk about with Rivian, I think I would want what Rivian provides, if it's good, over what Apple, you know, brings to the table externally. I again, I hate to say goodbye, but we've we've got somebody waiting in the wings. So I want to say, first of all, thank you very much, emily, for being here. If people would like to follow the great work that you're doing, where are the places they should go to do that?

29:05 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
I'm in all the places. I'm on Blue Sky, I'm on Twitter, although I don't post too much there, so Blue Sky is probably the best option. And where else, I mean LinkedIn, if you like that. We got TikTok, but I think Blue Sky would be good. I'm actually two followers away from my next threshold.

29:28 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Oh, we got to get Emily there.

29:30 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
So yes.

29:30 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Are you at Emily Forlini there? Yeah, beautiful Head there. So, yes, are you at Emily Forlini?

29:32 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
there yeah.

29:34 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Beautiful Head there.

29:35 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
Today You'll have a special place in my heart if you're in the next two.

29:40 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Beautiful, all right, well, thank you so much for your time and I'll see you again soon.

29:45 - Emily Forlini (Co-host)
Yeah, thanks, have a good day.

29:50 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Alrighty, folks, we're going to take a quick break before we come back with our next, an interview with Kate Nibbs of Wired. All about the very interesting and very, I think, important conversation around AI copyright rulings. But first let me tell you about Storyblock. We're bringing you this episode of Tech News Weekly.

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32:48 - Kate Knibbs (Guest)
Hey, thanks so much for having me.

32:50 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, so you are a prolific writer. You've now covered two major AI copyright rulings in the same week. I'd love to know what stood out to you most about how differently the courts handled the meta and anthropic cases, and maybe a quick little kind of overview of what's going on with these cases.

33:11 - Kate Knibbs (Guest)
Sure thing. Yeah, it was a very busy week. Please pray with me that no other huge copyright news.

33:17 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yes, let's take a moment. Okay, good Thank you?

33:21 - Kate Knibbs (Guest)
Yes, so there are dozens of AI copyright lawsuits currently winding through the courts. These were the first two summary judgments from judges dealing with generative AI, so they're hugely precedent setting. They're both very important and they're fascinating because, on the surface, both of the judges sided with the AI companies over whether some of their use of copyrighted materials was fair use in these cases. So surface level looks like a win for Anthropic, looks like a win for Meta. What's fascinating is that there are also losses for the tech companies in very different ways, and I will explain. So.

34:05
Judge William Alsup made the summary judgment in the Anthropic case and he basically came out and said in general, it's fair use to use copyrighted materials to train AI tools. However, because during the discovery process that came out that Anthropic had pirated over 7 million books to create a library that it was planning to use to train AI tools, the judge said well, piracy is not okay and you still have to go to trial over that, and so the plaintiffs are going to be able to take Anthropic to trial on. The damages could be over a trillion dollars, which would be really bad for Anthropic. Wow, and it opens the door for other plaintiffs to do the same to other AI companies, because Anthropic isn't the only AI company that it's known that they used pirated materials.

35:00
Yeah, the precedent of it all, yeah, so one of the AI companies that we know also used pirated materials is Meta, and in the Meta case that was decided yesterday, the plaintiff's lawyers spent a lot of time arguing about the piracy angle, saying you know, we can't ignore this. They pirated these books. That is theft. It doesn't matter what they did with them. Really, like we got to address this.

35:28
But the judge, judge Vince Chaglia, he didn't really care about this argument, like it was not of interest to him. He was laser focused on whether the plaintiffs could prove that Metta harmed their financial prospects by training on their books. He really really wanted the plaintiffs to prove what is called market harm. Plaintiffs to prove what is called market harm. And so his ruling was I'm siding with Metta, but not because I think that every single instance of training on copyrighted books is fair use. It's because I think the plaintiffs did a bad job arguing their case, pretty much. So that also leaves a very large door open for other plaintiffs to bring Metta to like to file lawsuits against Metta for copyright infringement and just argue it differently. So yeah, it's. It's really wild to see how this is all unfolded.

36:23 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, there's a lot going on in the anthropic case. The court called LLM training and I thought this was. I mean, this is kind of again, all of this is so interesting I'm sure you've you probably shout this at people walking down the street and pay attention. No, I'm kidding, but I would want to do that Like you don't understand. All of this is so precedent setting and I can't imagine being a judge who has to make any of these rulings because you're really like wow. Anyway. So the court called LLM training quote one of the most transformative uses we'll ever see. How important is that fair use framing and what precedent. I know I'm going to keep saying that word. Somebody's going to start to make a little drinking game, but what precedent might it set?

37:09 - Kate Knibbs (Guest)
I think when all of the defense attorneys for the AI companies read that line, they probably took a shot of celebratory champagne or something, because that's definitely going to be huge going forward for them as something to point to, to say well, look, this is what the judge said in this first summary judgment, Because whether something is transformative or not is hugely important to making the determination about fair use. And just for anyone who doesn't know what fair use is, because it's a fairly wonky thing in copyright law, it's a doctrine that allows people to use copyrighted materials without permission in certain circumstances. So that's why I can quote from a book in a news article without first getting permission from the author to do so. My use would be transformative and thus fair. It's why people are allowed to create parody sketches of popular TV shows without getting sued by the creators. So whether something is transformative, whether it takes the materials and does something new with it, is one of the big things that judges look at when they're deciding if if the use of copyrighted materials was legal or not.

38:23 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Well, the judge in the Metta case emphasized that market harm was a deciding factor, and you talked about this a little bit seemed almost frustrated. The plaintiffs didn't build that part of the case, did we? I guess, hearing this from the outside right, it almost sounds like it almost sounds like a judge who perhaps wanted to rule a different way and then said you messed up so bad that I, just like you, didn't do what you were supposed to do. Otherwise it could have been this when you talked about that. It almost sounded like what you were saying and I would love to be corrected if I'm wrong here. It's almost a hint, maybe, that if you want to argue this in the future, it could be the ruling that you're trying to get if you do a better job on this specific type of argument. Is that the vibe Like what exactly was going on there?

39:23 - Kate Knibbs (Guest)
That is exactly the vibe Like I wouldn't say the judge was almost frustrated. He was pissed, like even in hearings that they were having leading up, the judge was almost frustrated. He was pissed like he. Even in hearings that they were having leading up to this summary judgment he was saying to the plaintiff's lawyers like if you are able to lay out why this is harming your clients financially, I'm gonna rule in your favor. Like it was sort of the plaintiff's case to lose in the judge's mind and the summary judgment was sort of an indictment of the plaintiff's case to lose in the judge's mind and the summary judgment was sort of an indictment of the way that the case was argued. Yeah, so he seemed quite pained to be issuing the judgment that he issued.

40:02 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Understood. Both rulings, of course, involved allegations of piracy, I mean, but only one judge allowed that part to go to trial. What is it there that made the courts kind of treat these issues so differently?

40:19 - Kate Knibbs (Guest)
It's so wild watching all of these cases because it really cements the truth that it really depends what judge you get. I'm so curious how it would have played out if Judge Alsup had been the one sitting for the meta case, because he really cared about piracy. So, yeah, it truly can sometimes just come down to the judge's interpretation of the law. Also, the Anthropic case was a class action and the meta case was just limited to 13 plaintiffs. So I think and again, I'm not actually a copyright lawyer, even though I'm obsessed with this so I think that might have played into why one was going to trial and one wasn't. But yeah, I listened to so many hours of legal proceedings in both of these cases leading up to these judgments and the whole way through, judge Chabria didn't seem to want to hear about the piracy, and now we know why it's because he wasn't planning on making it an important part of his ruling.

41:21 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Understood In reporting both stories. I'm curious if you got a sense of how these rulings are being received in the AI industry overall versus the creative and publishing sectors, who are kind of at odds here.

41:34 - Kate Knibbs (Guest)
Yeah, I get a lot of feedback. It's so interesting because everyone is sort of declaring victory here. The AI companies obviously did technically win in the the summary judgment sided with them. Advocates who support the idea that AI training is fair use are also just calling this a win, and they tend to be emphasizing the way both judges did say that AI training was transformative. But the a lot of people close to the plaintiffs that I've spoken with and other plaintiffs that I've spoken with in lawsuits that are still ongoing, and just advocates for rights holders. They're kind of chalking these up as wins too, because of the huge caveats that the rulings came with, worth billions and maybe trillions of dollars any time that piracy was involved in the amassing of the data sets that are used to train. And then, yeah, the judge in the meta case truly did leave a huge lane for anyone who wanted to bring a different lawsuit against the tech companies. So everyone's a winner somehow.

42:52 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
So to round things out here, looking ahead, are there any cases or rulings that you are particularly watching that might further clarify the limits of fair use in AI training? Or maybe it's just what happens next in these cases?

43:09 - Kate Knibbs (Guest)
Yeah, I'd say there are three that I have a close eye on. One is the New York Times versus OpenAI, and that had sort of long been considered one of the best laid out complaints against a tech company. They had provided a lot of instances that they were able to show OpenAI regurgitating word for word New York Times content. Similarly, there is a new case Disney and Universal sued Midjourney, the image generation startup. Similarly to the New York Times case. They brought tons of receipts that were just like all of these different images of very recognizable Disney and Universal characters like the Boss Baby and Darth Vader that had been generated by Mid Journey. I think both of those cases will still be hugely important.

44:01
And then there's also been a lot of rumors that the music labels are considering settling with the music generation startups Suno and Udio, and we haven't seen a settlement at all. So that would be huge too. So those are the three that I'm keeping the closest eye on, but the Anthropic case kind of was a sleeper for me and now it's hugely important. So there's probably at least one or two others going on that I should be paying attention to. If anyone listening wants to tell me what else I should be looking into that I should be paying attention to. If anyone listening wants to tell me what else I should be looking into.

44:30 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, please reach out. In fact, if people would like to follow along with the work you're doing and maybe reach out, where are some places they can go to do that?

44:39 - Kate Knibbs (Guest)
Yeah, well, of course, wiredcom. I'm publishing very regularly there. I'm on Blue Sky, kate Nibbs X. I still sometimes am there at Nibbs Threads. I don't even know what my username is, just Google me yeah there you go.

44:55 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, kate, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. Always a pleasure to get to talk to you, especially kind of pulling all of this stuff apart and also nerding out about all of it, because I think it's also very fascinating. Thank for your time and we'll see you again soon. Yeah, thanks for having me. All righty folks, we're going to take a quick break before we come back with our final interview, this time about a phone that promises a little fairness, but first let me tell you about Hawkshunt, who are bringing you this episode of Tech News Weekly.

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47:57 - Will Sattelberg (Guest)
Welcome to the show, will. Thanks, micah. That's the first time I've been referred to as that, because I only started at 9to5 last week, so that's new.

48:03 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, you're the first to say that Brand new, oh, I'm honored, really excited to talk to you about this, because I think these devices don't get enough attention, frankly, and so it's really cool to get to talk to you about the Fairphone 6, which sticks to the company's sustainable, repairable design roots. I'm curious what are some of the hardware or design choices that stand out most this time around? Curious, what are some of the hardware or design choices that stand out most this time around? And if we could, for the uninitiated, maybe you kick off by telling us about Fairphone's sort of overall MO.

48:36 - Will Sattelberg (Guest)
Yeah, if you're in North America, you actually might not know Fairphone just because they're not a huge presence here, and we'll get to that later. But the Fairphone 6 is Fairphone's first smartphone in almost two years. It's not a radically new design, but it is a more modern design. It's got kind of what you expect from a modern smartphone Flat edges, flat back, curved corners, all that stuff right. So like it feels very modern. It's a little thicker than maybe like a Pixel, for example, or an S25.

49:09
But yeah, basically what fairphone centers on is is sustainability and repairability, right. So this is a phone that is meant to last you. You know the the eight years and we'll get to that too but the eight years of of guaranteed software support that fairphone you know, delivers, uh. And if there is any issues with the phone, it is designed so that you can repair it yourself without having to buy a new phone or go to a repair center or ship it away or file a warranty claim. Like it is designed first and foremost for you to be able to get in there and do the work yourself with as minimal interruptions as possible. Like nothing is glued down, for example, it's all screws.

49:52 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Nice. Now, one of the most creative additions in this version is the modular backplate system. Can you talk about how these accessories work and what possibilities it opens up for customization?

50:04 - Will Sattelberg (Guest)
Yeah. So if you look at the phone, first of all, you'll see that it's got a removable back, which is rare and has been rare on phones for, you know, even Android phones for basically a decade now. It's not hot swappable, right, you're not sliding this back off, but it's just two screws. Two screws, um, you can basically, you know, once you take that plate off, you can slap on whatever uh optional accessory, um fairphone selves. So they have, you know, for example, like a a grip, uh, back. That is the same back plate, but with a built-in grip. You don't have to like add one with an adhesive, um, they have, uh, uh, oh gosh, now I'm I don't have the photos up and now I'm forgetting uh, they have a whole, whole, uh, a bunch of. There's a wallet one, for example.

50:51
I also think that because Fairphone sells, you know, replacement parts, you should just be able to buy, you know, a back. So let's say you buy the Fairphone 6 in white, you should be able to get the green back and then just slap that on and you have, you know, a more unique take on a phone, just like that.

51:11 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, that's pretty cool. I love the idea of a wallet back. That's a little bit more fastened than the typical magnet.

51:18 - Will Sattelberg (Guest)
Exactly it's like fully built into the phone. You know I love MagSafe. In fact I would love to see them make a MagSafe back for this. But at the same time, like every MagSafe wallet I've ever tried, will slip off every now and then Like if you put it in your pocket, weird. And that's not going to happen with this phone.

51:36 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Very cool. Let's talk about the new moments mode. Yeah, how does it compare to minimalist phones like the light phone or, of course, installing a third party Android launcher that offers similar functionality?

51:56 - Will Sattelberg (Guest)
This is a pretty out-of-left-field idea for Fairphone. They have not done anything like this before. In fact, there had not been a lot of leaks on this device, and so no one really knew what this hardware switch off to the side was going to do. It looks like a mute switch, but instead it's actually a hardware switch that activates what they call moments, and it's a customizable, like alternative launcher that has different modes you can set. So you can, you know, set your essentials you can, you know.

52:20
The examples they give on the website are like deep focus or recharge, or quality time, and then all of those modes have just five apps listed in text on the home screen so that you aren't a little less likely to like browse, you know, reddit while you're. While you want to be just like relaxing, watching tv or something right, like maybe it's just your messaging app in your phone app or something instead of social media you can keep that for. So it's sort of trying to be something like the light phone, without having you, you know, completely replace your smartphone with something that can't run any apps. Right? This is trying to be like best of both worlds.

53:03 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Understood. Now with this. Of course, there's this dedicated hardware switch that turns on moments. What are your thoughts on the decision there? Is this something that feels like they're sort of pushing this on to you, or maybe it's helpful?

53:23 - Will Sattelberg (Guest)
I actually hadn't even thought about it as in pushing on to people until right now. I'd have to try it in person. I have not held this phone to see. Does it feel, you know, rigid enough to avoid accidental switches? I wrote in my post that it reminds me a lot of and OnePlus has just replaced it on their most recent phone with a button. But you know, most OnePlus phones have had a mute switch similar to what the iPhone used to have, but theirs was vertical instead of horizontal, like Apple's.

53:56
And practically every OnePlus phone I've reviewed, where I've slid it into my pocket, like inevitably, at least a few times during that review period or thereafter, while I'm still using the phone, it will hit. You will hit and switch from silent to vibrate or silent to full sound, and I could see that happening here, depending on how hard it is to push the button and flip the switch. It shouldn't be the end of the world as long as it doesn't interrupt your notifications, but I'd have to try it. I still think it's like a cool idea to have it linked to something physical. I think that makes it feel a little more like a cool idea to have it linked to something physical. I think that makes it feel a little more like a decision you're making of like okay, I'm not just toggling something in quick settings, I am flipping a switch and now my phone is kind of a different phone and I think that's a cool idea. But I'd want to try it in person first.

54:45 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Absolutely Now. This is, of course, a big part of this. Fairphone is promising eight years of software support, seven major Android upgrades. How realistic do we feel that is, and does it set a precedent?

55:00 - Will Sattelberg (Guest)
Yeah, as long as Fairphone is around as a company and they've been around for a bit at this point this is their sixth generation phone. I think it's fairly realistic. A lot of the. We've seen Google and Samsung move to seven years of OS upgrades and security patches. We've seen OnePlus is not super far behind that Right A lot of the on older Android devices. A lot of the roadblocks were.

55:30
You know. Oh, qualcomm has stopped supporting this chipset after three or four years. Therefore, there's not a lot the oem can do, even if they want to continue supporting it. That's not really a problem anymore. Qualcomm has gotten really good at supporting their modern uh snapdragon chips. So you know it's. It's kind of as long as uh, as long as fairphone is around, I would say this should get its full eight years of software support, which is great, I think that's. That takes us to 2033, which is like a wild thing to think that you would hold on to your phone, and I think that pairs well with the repairability where it's like OK, my battery is shot after four years, you just buy a new one, you swap it out with a few screws and you're good to go.

56:12 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yeah, that is again a pretty cool thing, the idea of just being able to, you know, swap as needed. Now, in terms of specs and pricing, how does the Fairphone 6 compare to other mid-range Android phones?

56:24 - Will Sattelberg (Guest)
It's a little more expensive. I think the phone I would probably compare this to the closest is nothing, nothing's, three a pro which is, which is like $150 cheaper, I believe, or maybe even $200 cheaper. You pay a little bit more upfront for a fair phone because that then you would for similar specs, because it's in this, you know, sustainable package, right, not just replaceable, but also they're using, you know, recycled plastic and all of this like material. I think it's as long as you're not a hardcore mobile gamer, right, if you're not playing Genshin Impact every night or something, I think this is a perfectly fine phone, at least for today.

57:08
Obviously, mobile AI applications kind of complicate things a little bit. There's only eight gigabytes of RAM. That's pretty low for on-device AI, but that might not be a thing that Fairphone customers really care about anyway, because they're chasing, you know, more sustainability, more green-minded users. So if you're kind of just a general I browse social media and the web and I text people on my phone kind of user like, I think this is perfectly fine and will even last up through, you know, certainly 2030. And maybe you'll start to feel a little bit of slowdown after that, but I think this will get most people through.

57:47 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
And then, last but not least, for our US listeners, we know that the phone is not going to be available directly. No, unfortunately. How does that work? And how will it work if it does? And yeah, I mean, is it has been your experience that Fairphone doesn't get a lot of attention in the US because of its inavailability directly?

58:12 - Will Sattelberg (Guest)
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, you know I would love to see Fairphone come to the US. It's really in addition to a, you know, duopoly kind of marketplace where Samsung and Apple kind of rule and then Google is a third place alternative. The carriers also complicate things. It is difficult to. That is why OnePlus devices can be hit or miss here, even though they have been on stores like T-Mobile before. Nothing is another example. We're finally going to see them kind of take a step forward into the US with the Nothing Phone 3 next week, but you know they've been slow to approach the market.

59:01
Similarly, if you want to buy the Fairphone in the US and you don't want to just like import it and jump through those hoops, the only way you can do it officially is buying through Fairphone's partner, murina. Murina is a company, I believe, based out of France, that sells de-Googled versions of smartphones. So they're running a custom ROM installed by Mirina called EOS. They've been around for a few years now. I used to write at Android Police, I reviewed or did a hands-on with their de-Google Pixel tablet. So it's basically like they strip all of the Google apps and services out and then, you know, they kind of have their own alternative app store. You can anonymously browse the Play Store. It's not like you can't find your apps. It's not quite as limited as something like a Fire tablet, but it is certainly not something for you know to buy your parents or something.

59:50
It is an enthusiast product and it is going to be more expensive as well, so it's not really an option for most people. I would say the de-Google version. I'm curious if you can just kind of, you know, get software from Fairphone. And just because this is and I actually haven't looked into this this is, I think, the third phone they've sold with Mirena, so it's possible that those ROMs are already there and you could maybe just flash like Fairphone's own ROMs and go back to to a stock that would be ideal, yeah but but you're going to be paying.

01:00:23
You know whether you import it or buy it from Mirena. You're going to be paying a markup and jumping through some hoops. And it's unfortunate because I think this is a really interesting phone and it's doing like it's got some cool ideas and it's very like oh, you want to get your hands dirty, right, you want to go in there and like swap the battery when you want, or like fix a camera or something Like. I think that's a really cool idea and I do think there is a market for it in the US, but it's a little too niche for Fairphone to probably fully step into this market.

01:00:57 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Understood Well. Will I want to thank you so much for taking the time to join us today to talk about the Fairphone. I'm glad you're writing about the Fairphone. Of course folks can head over to 9to5Google now to check out the work that you're doing. Is there anywhere else? They should look to keep up with what you got going on.

01:01:13 - Will Sattelberg (Guest)
I'm on various social platforms, lots of stuff coming down the pike for me at 9to5. We're, you know, working on more podcasts. You know I'm writing more editorials than maybe 9to5 has put out in the past. So, yeah, it's going to be an exciting time. So follow me on social media or just pay attention to 9 to 5 and I'll be there.

01:01:34 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Awesome. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Thanks, micah. All righty, folks, we have reached the end of this episode of Tech News Weekly. Of course, you can go to twittv slash TNW to subscribe to the show in audio and video formats. And I want to mention Club Twit at Twit TV slash Club Twit. When you join the club, we've got monthly and yearly plans. You will gain access to some pretty awesome things. You will gain access to our ad-free versions of all of our shows. You'll also get access to the Twit Plus feeds. We've got three of them one for little bits and clips, one for news events and now I'm forgetting what. The third one is anthony news and bits and clips.

01:02:18 - Anthony Nielsen (TWiT.tv Producer) (None)
And so, uh, there's clips, which is just the like before, and after uh club shows is all the events and the news is like the um, keynotes, there you go.

01:02:29 - Mikah Sargent (Host)
Yes, so it was the club twit events One that I was forgetting, uh, as as the third there. So, uh, I think, uh, I think recently Patrick may have said there's coming up on like two, three weeks of content there. So joining the club gets you access to all of that stuff, um, and access to the members only discord server, a fun place to go to chat with your fellow Club Twit members and those of us here at Twit. We would love to see you in the club. I'd love to give you a little wave and have you check out some of the stuff we're doing in the club. I've actually been talking to our resident engineer, burke, about some ideas that I have. I don't want to say more than that just yet, but I'm really looking forward to that Some tinkering we might be doing soon. So please be sure to head to twittv slash club twit to join the club.

01:03:19
If you'd like to follow me online, I'm at Micah Sargent on many a social media network where you can head to chihuahuacoffee that's C-H-I-H-U-A-H-U-Acoffee, where I've got links to the places I'm most active online. And, of course, be sure to check out my other shows, including shows that will go out today iOS Today and Hands on Apple. You can also check out every Sunday, my show Hands on Tech. Thanks so much for being here and I'll see you again next week for another episode of Tech News Weekly. Bye-bye.

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