Tech News Weekly 361 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

0:00:00 - Emily Forlini
Coming up on Tech News Weekly. I'm Emily Forlini. I'm filling in for Mikah Sargent this week. First I'll be joined by Abrar Al-Heeti from CNET to talk about robo-taxis and autonomous driving tech across the country. Then we'll talk about my story, which is my experience driving the latest autonomous driving tech from Ford and GM. Then we'll move to talking to Lance Ulanoff at TechRadar about ChatGPT's push to take on Google and draw some of that traffic with its new search experience. And finally we'll round it out with Dan Patterson for a discussion about what the Trump election outcome means for the future of the tech industry. All that and more coming up today on Tech News Weekly.

This is Tech News Weekly, with Abrar Al-Heeti and me, Emily Forlini, episode 361, recorded on Thursday, november 7th 2024. Tech's future in the upcoming administration. Hello and welcome to Tech News Weekly, the show where every week, we talk to and about the people making and breaking the tech news. I'm Emily Forlini. You might recognize me from other Twitch shows or my work from PCMag. I'm filling in today for Mikah while he's on vacation, and I am joined by the illustrious Abrar Al-Heeti from CNET. Hi, abrar, hello.

0:01:26 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Wow, I love that description illustrious. I love that. I'm going to require that now every time I'm introduced you absolutely should.

0:01:31 - Emily Forlini
So you and I were talking. We kind of cooked up a little autonomous driving segment today, so we'll kick it off with your stories about robo-taxis. So tell us what you're reading about that.

0:01:42 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Yeah, I'm so excited about this segment because I'm obsessed with autonomous driving tech and robo taxis and there's been a good chunk of news lately about this. So I'm going to start off with news from Lyft. So Lyft is now partnering with May Mobility, which operates these autonomous Toyota Siennas, and starting in 2025, they will essentially roll out these robo taxis in Atlanta. So you'll use the Lyft app like you would normally, except you'll actually be able to hail a self-driving minivan, and so that's one partnership. There's another partnership with Mobileye, which is owned by Intel, and this will eventually let certain AV equipped vehicles also use Lyft. We don't have exact details on when or where yet, but that's another opportunity to use Lyft to hail a self-driving ride. And then there's a data sharing agreement with Nexar, which makes these smart dash cams and essentially whatever data they gather, they'll kind of work with Lyft to share that data with OEMs and AV companies, which will eventually improve autonomous tech data with OEMs and AV companies which will eventually improve autonomous tech.

So just really interesting, because we already know that Uber has some partnerships with self-driving companies, including Al-Heeti, which is kind of one of the biggest names, especially if you live in places like the San Francisco Bay Area, where we see these things all the time like it's just normal, and so I think what's really telling about this is, you know, a ride hailing service recognizing that if you want to compete and if you want to stay relevant in the coming years, you need to have the option for people to hail a self-driving vehicle, and so I'm really curious you know, there's a lot of it's a mix of newer and smaller companies and kind of companies that have been around for a while that are a bit larger and owned by companies like Alphabet, and so, yeah, I don't know, is that something you think you would ever use if you're hailing an Uber or Lyft? I want to start with the question of have you taken something like a Al-Heeti before or a cruise vehicle back, when that was an option, and is that something that you?

would actually use Uber or Lyft to hail.

0:03:48 - Emily Forlini
I think I would in a controlled environment. So I haven't lived in a city where they have these running around Sounds like you are seeing them all the time. In San Francisco I did take one at CES as a demo car and we went on the highways and did all that. And when I was in Austin a while ago speaking at a conference, there were just autonomous cars all around the city and it just seemed like they were just rocking it Like they had no problem. So that boosted my confidence a little bit. I would like the option for sure to have a human driver. I don't really feel it's required to completely eliminate the human driver, especially in some circumstances where that could be helpful.

I don't know, are you taking them?

0:04:30 - Abrar Al-Heeti
I tend. Okay, I would actually take Al-Heeti more if it was a little bit more affordable, but it always costs more than hailing an Uber or Lyft.

Really I didn't know that, and I think it's because it's the early days, right. I think once they have more vehicles available, once they kind of you know smooth out the process. I had to wait once for like 20 minutes 25 minutes for a Al-Heeti to come to me and then it was 26 bucks to go about a mile and a half. And I did it because my mom was visiting and I wanted her to try it out and it was a really fun experience, but it's not very cost efficient at the time. I think that will change. The perk for me of taking a self-driving vehicle is that sometimes I don't want to tell my life story to an Uber driver, which seems to always happen as just a lot of questions, a lot of times when you don't really want to talk to somebody, or maybe you want to hop on a phone call and not have somebody listening in on all of that or whatever it is, even if you just want to listen to some music that you want to choose. But then at the same time, you do have to think about you know, these are people's jobs, right? So it's kind of this, this two-sided thing, that you have to think about. So, yeah, I don't want human drivers to completely disappear, but I think there is an appeal for self-driving vehicles, and the other piece of this is that Zoox, which is owned by Amazon, they're essentially rethinking how an autonomous vehicle even looks. This is kind of like a boxier design there's no steering wheel, there's no driver's seat, there's no pedals. So if you're going to say, oh, you know, maybe there's still room for a driver, not with Zoox, there's not room for a driver.

They've been working on this for about a decade, and they shared last week that they're actually planning to roll out these vehicles in San Francisco, in Soma, and that is an area that a lot of robo-taxis roam today. Al-Heeti, in particular, is what I'm referring to and it's a perfect place to test out a self-driving vehicle, because there's the combination of pedestrians, vehicles, public transportation, bikers, and if a robo taxi can make it in Soma, I think it can make it just about anywhere. So we don't know exactly when this will be coming in the San Francisco area. It'll start in Soma and then eventually expand, but it should be in the coming weeks that we'll see these on the road and then also they'll be driving down the Las Vegas Strip. So then, how do you feel about that, Emily. How do you feel about being in a vehicle where there's no opportunity for you to take the wheel if you want to?

0:06:53 - Emily Forlini
Well, I'm wondering about the legal clearance for that, because I know there's, I guess, six levels of autonomy zero up to five, and then there's only a certain clearance and it's done by on the state level. And that's why it's a big deal that Elon Musk's and Tesla actually doesn't have clearance to operate its robo taxis, whereas these companies are. So it seems to me like the name of the game is legalities and what can you launch and where, and if there's a driver in there or not, I don't know, but did Zoox mention anything about how they got the clearance to operate this kind of vehicle?

0:07:26 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Yeah, when they're asked about that, they essentially say that they've worked with regulators, kind of from day one. They say they've, you know, they've checked all the boxes for FMVSS, which is essentially the standard to make sure that your vehicle is able to drive on public roads, on open public roads, got it and so they've done. You know a lot of this. They've gotten a lot of the clearance that they essentially need at this point to go ahead and hit the roads. And they've already been testing in Vegas. They've been operating these robo taxis in Vegas and in Foster city, california. It's just only employees are able to ride in them. So at this point what the big step is is that very soon they will be welcoming public riders.

I actually did get to try it out in Vegas a couple of weeks ago Story coming on that, stay tuned but it was a really interesting experience. And the inside of the vehicle you have essentially two seats on each side. They kind of face the middle. If you've ever been in like a London black cab, imagine that kind of interior. Except it drives itself, just like small little detail there. But it was surprisingly not scary and we went up to 45 miles an hour. It felt secure and you're just driving this little pod.

0:08:37 - Emily Forlini
So I might be one of the first people I think. Well for me. You were the first person I've talked to who's actually been in one of those with no steering wheel on the road.

0:08:44 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Yeah, it was quite an honor and I was very persistent and it worked Good for you, thank you. So I'm excited to kind of share more about that as that piece comes out. But yeah, it was. I mean, I'm curious how people react to it. I don't know, I feel like people are. You might've seen stories about vandalism towards other robo taxis and I wonder if there's something that looks this futuristic, how will people react to that?

0:09:09 - Emily Forlini
Right, yeah, I mean, I'm not afraid of the tech. I think what you said about it being more expensive is almost more important to me, and especially if there could be issues like I've seen. We wrote a couple articles on PCMag of one where there was a woman in the car and a pedestrian kind of came up and stopped the car and was like catcalling her, basically so kind of harassing her from inside the car, and it's like there's nothing you can do about that. There was another one on Halloween night where someone tried to break into the car and someone was in there and took out a knife and there's no recourse for that. So if it's at the point where society is uncomfortable with these cars and people are acting very strangely around them and it's costing me more money, probably do it one time for the novelty, talk about it on a podcast or whatever, and then just continue to take regular Ubers.

0:10:02 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Yeah, and I think a lot of people are in the same boat as you, at least at this point. I think the selling point so far has been oh, you have privacy and you have autonomy, and that's great. But cost is a big factor, like you mentioned, and maybe it is a matter of greater familiarity and there is obviously, at this point in time, a huge, huge novelty element to this. Right, oh my gosh, a vehicle drives itself, but then what happens when the novelty wears off? That could actually be a good thing, right, because it's it's less a um, kind of like a gimmick, and more of like, oh, this is what I do, this is my routine.

I like to go in this vehicle and be by myself and do this thing, um, but, uh, but, yeah, really fascinated with with how much this is ramping up and and how many vehicles, uh, how many companies, uh, kind of want a piece of this seemingly pretty lucrative pie. And also, I'd like to mention that, like, it's going to take a very long time for companies to make their money back, right? So, Al-Heeti is owned by Alphabet, which obviously has a lot of money. Zoox is owned by Amazon, which obviously has a lot of money. They are pouring so many resources into this and they know that it'll take a few years before they make that money back. But they see that there is a market and that there is interest and we're just going to have to see if that's true.

0:11:14 - Emily Forlini
I agree. What I would like is a separate lane for the autonomous cars, because that would reduce traffic which is really the major benefit If I'm in an autonomous car or when we're humans driving, if I'm still in traffic, I'm in traffic, and that's the worst part about driving. So I mean, autonomous trucks should have a separate lane, and so should these cars, and then I feel like we're really offering something new.

0:11:41 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Yeah, I would also like to add that if you are driving behind an autonomous vehicle, guess what? It's going to go speed limit, so you're going to go the speed limit too, which means they're probably slow things.

0:11:50 - Emily Forlini
I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just heads up you know just every all the cars just start driving the speed limit. What a concept.

0:11:57 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Everyone's actually slower.

0:11:59 - Emily Forlini
Yeah, exactly, yeah, all right, cool. We're going to continue this discussion in a minute with my story about autonomous cars that we can drive. That's out right now, but first we're going to take a quick break for a message from Mikah.

0:12:36 - Mikah Sargent
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0:14:18 - Emily Forlini
All right, thank you, Mikah. So we're going to continue this autonomous driving conversation with my latest experiments in autonomous driving, which is the two systems I use from Ford and GM. So they, like Tesla, make what's called a level two self-driving product where you can not touch the steering wheel at all. So this isn't like smart cruise control or lane keeping. This is like you are sitting back and you're not touching the steering wheel and you're just looking around. I mean, you have to keep your eyes on the road. There is it's called retina tracking, so they make sure that you're looking forward. But I thought this was just amazing. It was kind of an out of body experience for me to be able to just do this independently. I mean, I got these cars for free, just as a press loan, but just that someone gave me a car and I was cruising down the highway at 70 miles per hour without my hands on the wheel for 40, 50 minutes at a time was just insane. Have you tried these, zavrar?

0:15:19 - Abrar Al-Heeti
I have not, but I was very intrigued by your story because it's such an. You know we start out by talking about autonomous vehicles, but then you talk about something that's a bit more kind of within reach for a lot of people, which is you have a standard vehicle and you're going on a road trip, or even if you're just running an errand and you don't necessarily want to be super, super focused on the road. Also, side note here, I don't normally drive because I drive, because I rely on public transportation and walking. But I rented a car a couple of days ago and I'm not a fan of driving around San Francisco. It made me really anxious.

But I was reading your piece and I was like gosh, wouldn't it be helpful if I had a vehicle where it would help me merge onto different lanes on the highway and I wouldn't be so nervous about it? So I was really intrigued by this, and I was also really intrigued by your perspective about how it can kind of get boring, because you know you're kind of in this weird in-between right when you're not fully taking control of everything but, like you mentioned, you can't just like text your friends, which is good, so. So I was fascinated by that as well, and how you managed to. Does that make you kind of like, like, imagine if you're already like sleepy or something? Do you think that could be something you think about?

0:16:27 - Emily Forlini
It was such an interesting like the first. The first feeling you have is just novelty. So the way, and then it gets to the boring. But I'll start with the novelty part and just how you get started. So you get in the car, you have to get to a highway. It has to be an eligible highway, so that means that something blinks on the dash that says you can turn it on here, and from what I can gather, it's just has to be, you know, multiple lane with like solid dividers between, and there also can't be too many lights. I live in New Jersey where there's highways that have lights, which is a bizarre thing. Yeah, you can't be near any lights. Yeah, yeah.

So you basically get on the highway and then for GM I was in a Chevy Equinox EV, a very nice EV that came out this year. It kind of turns like the steering wheel lights up green on the top, which is very exciting, and when that happens you press a button and then you just pull your hands away and you see the wheel start to kind of move a little bit tweak, but just kind of stays there and you're driving it to kind of move a little bit tweak, but just kind of stays there and I know you're driving. It's exactly the same with Ford. So I had a Mustang Mach-E also awesome car. I had a souped up like sporty package. It was so fun and that too, it just it blinks, it says you're ready to go hands-free. You press a button and you're good to go.

And then for both of them, if they happen to disengage, if you're around like a construction zone or the lines get a little blurry or for whatever reason they just don't have data on that road, which is a bummer then it just turns off, yeah, but yeah, basically, when it was working I got a little bit bored because, like I said, they're tracking my eye levels, so for this was like a 40 minute, 50 minute drive, and so I was just stuck Like I'm staring ahead, I can't text, I can't watch anything, I can't even really get in that flow of driving, like I just was a useless blob staring ahead.

0:18:15 - Abrar Al-Heeti
That should be our headline. This made me feel like a useless blob.

0:18:18 - Emily Forlini
It made me feel like a useless blob. It's like the movie WALL-E, like truly coming to life. You know, the useless blob people who are just sitting there doing nothing, yeah, and I was like, wow, we're here. That movie came out when I was younger. Um, there's just this intermediate state where it's not so self-driving, like you mentioned with the zoo, so there's no steering wheel and I'm doing work or I'm watching a show. It's, but I'm doing work, or I'm watching a show, but I'm also I'm not driving. I'm distinctly not driving, but I have to be ready at any moment to intervene.

0:18:51 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Yeah, that's what I wonder about technologies like this and Tesla's self-driving which is not full self-driving, as we know, but it's helpful to have that assistance but because it's not at a level where you can actually just kind of let go and do what you need to do and just take your attention away from driving. I wonder what the marketing pitch is for that, because it obviously sounds really cool and it sounds really helpful, especially if you don't again want to be worried about merging into the right lane at the right time and all of that. But if you are on those long haul drives, you know, I wonder if people will kind of see past kind of that. That shining pitch of like, look how, look how helpful this can be, because, because they still have to pay attention, I think that eye tracking is just so interesting.

Yeah, and that's, you know, kind of a requirement, because we've seen Tesla get in a lot of trouble um, about you know it's self-driving kind of doing a little too much and people not paying attention, and they've kind of rolled out measures to make sure people are actually paying a bit more attention. But you're walking this weird line between making sure you have all the safety measures but then also deploying tech that it's designed to help people relax, but maybe they're not relaxing as much as they could be Right. So what do you do with that level of autonomy?

0:20:12 - Emily Forlini
I found that it was, in a sense, less relaxing, because I am not. I don't have the muscle to, I just didn't have the technique. It was like I wasn't an operator of the vehicle, I was like a remote supervisor, but I don't know, everything could go up in flames at any moment.

0:20:30 - Abrar Al-Heeti
That doesn't sound very relaxing.

0:20:32 - Emily Forlini
So it was a low level, constant stress where I wanted to enjoy not driving, but I also had to focus on not having the worst driving disaster of like my life because I'm not paying attention. So I did find, actually, that it was tough to stay engaged and it was yeah, it was kind of difficult. But maybe if I had the car and you know I had a commute and I knew that the Ford or the Chevy or the Tesla could work on the roads to my commute, I did it every day. Maybe I would just get better at this remote operator role, but I really thought it was something just new, just a new skill, a new relationship to the car, to the road, to everyone around you. Yeah, and interesting.

0:21:14 - Abrar Al-Heeti
And I wonder if, when you were driving these, were you by yourself.

0:21:20 - Emily Forlini
I was with my husband for most of the time, but also on the long trip I was by myself and I was like who can I call? Can I get a text out? Can I just take these five or six seconds before it blinks at you and it will disengage if you look away. Do I have enough time to pull up a podcast? I was like, what can I do?

0:21:39 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Isn't that so interesting that you have to pay more attention in this vehicle and with this technology than you would with a vehicle where you're fully operating? I feel like maybe we should have some more of that in standard vehicles.

0:21:51 - Emily Forlini
But right, it's a good thing, it's a good thing. But the boringness comes not from the responsibility, it's from the lack, true lack, of an activity Like usually driving. You're engaged.

0:22:03 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Oh yeah, and that's why I asked if you were by yourself, because I wonder, I feel like the times when I get most stressed about driving and where I wish I had maybe some assistive tech like this, is when there are other people in the vehicle and you're kind of conversing with them or you're trying to like I don't know multitask and I don't want to say multitask, but like in a safe way, just kind of engage with people but also drive. And so I wonder, if you had a technology like this, if it would be most helpful when you are kind of trying to walk that line between like, oh, let me chat with my friends or whoever's in the vehicle with me, and then also make sure that the vehicle is doing what it needs to do and that'll, you know, yell at me if I'm not paying attention.

0:22:40 - Emily Forlini
And the merging, which can be stressful. There's a lot of people in the car and I have this phobia that like the death of me is going to happen when I'm merging. Like I just I just always think that something is going to go wrong because there's blind spots. And my current car is not super advanced or anything. It's a little bit older. But maybe merging is a lot easier than we thought because these cars were just doing it just so easily.

It just seemed like no sweat at all they just wait till they have an opening, and then they just do it and it's done in a second.

0:23:11 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm always really impressed. I think I'm still obviously recovering from my highway journey in the past couple of days because I really just I mean, it's amazing to me, I think if you do it regularly, you know, you kind of just own the roads, but if you're in a place where you don't really know the roads very well and the highways very well and you don't know which exits to take, it can be very overwhelming, and so I think there is a place for this in that way. But then we just got to figure out I need a follow-up from you about how to stay engaged when you are operating this vehicle.

Things that you can do, I want you to crack the code?

0:23:43 - Emily Forlini
Yes, right, and I don't know, because there's a lot of different types of drivers. For someone who hates driving and doesn't find it fun or engaging, they might really like this. Then there's all the way on the other spectrum, of someone who's still really committed to having a stick shift car, really wants to feel the vehicle, really wants to be engaged in the activity of driving. I think all the types of people would respond very differently to this product.

0:24:10 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Yeah, I think you bring up a great point. I think for a lot of people there's a thrill in what vehicle they're driving and how it operates and how they're operating it, and I think they'd look at this and they think why would I want that? Like why, yeah, exactly yeah, it's either all or nothing.

0:24:24 - Emily Forlini
Either you're driving or you're not, and so right now we're just at that point where we are in the middle and there's such a small fraction of people that are doing this because you need to have a car that supports it. So I was driving, you know, new electric vehicles and that right there very small segment. And then also of those people another tiny slice are paying for the autonomy feature, and these ones with Ford and Chevy are about half the price as Tesla. So Tesla is at, I think it's $99 a month and Ford and Chevy have lower plans per month and all kinds of payment plans, but still it's a very small amount of people. So it was cool to get a window into that because it is going on roads across the country.

0:25:07 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Yeah, and it's great to know about. Even if you're not operating one of these vehicles, it's good to know that other folks who are sharing the road with you are. And the point you bring up about the cost, I mean, I think it is worth thinking about because we already, I mean, subscription fatigue is real, and how many people are going to say, oh gosh, I want to add one more subscription for something that may or may? Not be necessary, but if it's helpful, it's helpful.

0:25:28 - Emily Forlini
Yeah, I mean happily, ford introduced a non-subscription option where you could just pay thousands of dollars upfront still less than Tesla. But if you have the money, you kind of just want to like close your eyes and sign it off, and then you don't have to worry about it, which is more pleasant, I think.

0:25:44 - Abrar Al-Heeti
I think that's more enticing. Yeah, exactly, and to your point.

0:25:47 - Emily Forlini
One last thing about just that. People are doing this all over and, like you said, this is just happening. So something Mercedes was trying to do for a while, and might still be trying to do, is make a new standard type of headlight color when self-driving is engaged. Oh, interesting, so Mercedes is the manufacturer with the highest level of self-driving clearance in the US, so they're at level three in California and they have this thing where they're trying to make the headlights turn turquoise when the car is in self-driving mode, which I think is what do you think about that? Would you feel safer?

0:26:20 - Abrar Al-Heeti
I think so. I think it's good to know, right? I think it's. I think it would be actually kind of helpful to just be aware of that. I think some people might be spooked by it, but I don't think there's anything to be spooked by. I think awareness is more important than just like not being, not being in the know of kind of how these vehicles around you are operating. I don't know, what do you feel about that?

0:26:38 - Emily Forlini
I like it. I kind of like any new experiment like that. I'm generally pretty open to it, and transparency is usually a good thing, so why not Also? Turquoise sounds pretty.

0:26:50 - Abrar Al-Heeti
We all have fun colored lights, Right?

0:26:53 - Emily Forlini
I mean that sounds cool, I'm up for fun lights, I'm game, right. I mean, that sounds cool, I'm up for fun lights, I'm game, all right. Well, we have reached the end. Autonomous vehicles State of the Union complete yes.

0:27:05 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Thank you for tuning in. Hopefully we've given you everything you need to know about vehicles. You can somewhat operate and not operate at all.

0:27:12 - Emily Forlini
Exactly, I think we did. I think we did a good job yeah. Go us All right. Thank you, Abrar. Where can people find you if they want to stay in touch with your work and with you?

0:27:20 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Yeah, you can find my stories on CNETcom. I'm also on X L-H-E-T, underscore three, and I'm on Instagram and TikTok. Abrar L-H-E-T. No spaces.

0:27:30 - Emily Forlini
Okay, perfect, thank you.

0:27:32 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Thank you.

0:27:32 - Emily Forlini
Before we get to our next guest, we are going to have another quick break from Mikah. We'll be back to the show in just a moment.

0:27:41 - Mikah Sargent
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0:30:00 - Emily Forlini
All right, great. Next we are talking with Lance Ulinoff, editor at large at TechRadar and longtime tech industry reporter veteran. Hi, Lance, Hi there, Excited to talk to you. So you tried out ChatGPT search and you wrote a piece and claimed you may never Google again. So tell me why you were so convinced by ChatGPT search. And you wrote a piece and claimed you may never Google again. So tell me why you were so convinced by ChatGPT search.

0:30:23 - Lance Ulanoff
I do admit to a bit of hyperbole, but it was. Yeah, it was like going back in time as I wrote my article. You know, I wrote an article 21 years ago about search and how it had become a verb and that it was the only way of search. And that was after. You know, the whole industry had all these different search engines.

Google arrives, we immediately know it's better, but it was so clean and simple and kept that way for so long. And so with ChatGPT Ssearch which, by the way, why isn't it Search GPT? But whatever, I thought that's what it was going to be. In any case, it was conversational. Of course, it was clean.

The results were clean, they were more again, they were more trustworthy than what you got originally with ChatGPT, which was trying to guess at an answer with a limited access to the web. And so this is full access, but also in a way that feels more like an engagement with someone, because you're asking a question and then you're asking a follow-up question and another follow-up and the thread is there and it's not. You know, if I do a similar search on Google, I'm kind of starting over each time. I put something in that wasn't quite right, then I put something else in and I'm sort of I've lost the thread. So all of the experience I was having with ChatGPT Search felt simpler, smarter, cleaner and a return to just getting me the information I wanted in what seemed to be the best way possible, Right, right.

0:31:58 - Emily Forlini
So can you explain what exactly it is? It's not a new product, it's just an experience within ChatGPT. So what did you see were the differences between ChatGPT two weeks ago and ChatGPT now?

0:32:12 - Lance Ulanoff
Yeah well basically it is. You know, when you're using ChatGPT you know that is a chatbot, a generative AI chatbot, and you can do all sorts of things, including program, with it. You can kind of walk it through what you want to give stuff back. But they introduced this very simple thing within the interface, this little globe in the prompt box, and if you click that you're switching to Search GPT or Chat GPT with Search. I guess that's the best way to say it Because, by the way, there was so much confusion. The way they've done this is not great, because when you say Searching or Chat GPT, search or something like that, people think you're searching within Chat GPT. You're not. You're engaging with a part of the generative AI that uses a combination of its generative AI skills and its ability to search against the internet. So it all kind of collides in that interface. But you're in the same interface and in fact all of your history of the various engagements you have with ChatGPT remain in that interface.

They're on the left-hand side. You can go back to any of them at any time, which is great. So it feels like a very natural part of the experience and the results that you get are very clean and conversational, but they are cited. So they do cite the websites that they get it from. They'll both put it in line at the end of a paragraph and sometimes they'll put in a little box or they'll sort of collapse them all up. But also there's a right-hand column which I hadn't even noticed at first. Who knows, maybe they added it, but a right-hand column that's very much like a traditional search result with just the little, the headline, the synopsis the link.

0:33:55 - Emily Forlini
They added that, yep, that was part of their release.

0:33:57 - Lance Ulanoff
So you know it has, I guess, in some ways, the best of both worlds, but it's really just a question of you know if you want to engage with this. Now. I know that I got access because I signed up to be on the waitlist as soon as I heard about it, so it was just turned on for me, and I know that not everyone is getting it, that it's some people have to, I guess, pay or to pay for a different level. So it's a little unclear to me how OpenAI is rolling this out. But I know that I had the experience, basically from day one.

0:34:31 - Emily Forlini
Yeah, so I had the typical kind of experience. I wrote an article on this that should be publishing tomorrow or something with my take and I got access to it by just subscribing to ChatGPT+. When I write articles on it, I just do it for one month and then I kind of cancel it. But this is coming to all free users soon and they said in the quote coming weeks. That is their typical product flow. They'll do it to the plus users and enterprise users and then kind of merge it into the free users for most like features, so it should be coming everywhere.

But I guess my take on it was it was very similar to Google Gemini, which is already a it's still a conversational chat bot, but it has always had access to the web and also, I would say, google is also still very similar to this chat GPT product because Google also has AI overviews now as well as all the links. So the only difference there is that chat with GPT is conversational, but then then you run into the Gemini counterpoint, which is also so right, okay, yeah there is one other difference, that which is also so right, okay, yeah, there is one other difference that there are no ads.

0:35:42 - Lance Ulanoff
you know there are no ads inside of the chat gpt search, but you will pretty quickly, once you start scrolling down, you will find, you know, the, the sponsored stuff, and you know it's all kind of there's. There are things that appear in your results in google that seem to be about something else. You know people are also looking for this, but but I wasn't looking for that, why do I care? You know it's always like let's extend, let's go here, we're being helpful, we promise, but it sometimes feels like another way to monetize our eyeballs. So I made this clear in my post that I am definitely not saying that chat GPT search is the better search engine One. I know way too much about how Google works and has worked to build its knowledge graph to understand it is so deep, so rich, so powerful. And that chat GPT OpenAI they're not there yet and they probably won't be there right away, but it is still a good experience. That I think. Part of it, part of the benefit I see, is the obvious way of continuing the thread of discovery that, even with the AI overviews that happen at the top of your search. It's not obvious that you can kind of continue that on. It feels a little bit one. It's weirdly frustrating, even though those answers can be good, because you're thinking in Google, I just want to get to my results, get out of my way, and so you kind of feel like it's a roadblock. Meanwhile, this is the only thing that really exists within chat GPT search, so it feels more natural.

But yes, I, I'm not. I don't even if, even if JadGPT search was the best search, I don't think they would necessarily be the search we end up using, because best doesn't mean the winner. It's just hasn't been that way. In this space. In many spaces, google's far too powerful, far too widely used, dominant. It's just a habit for everyone. Yeah, yeah, it's a habit. There's a reason. It's a verb, you know. It's how people search. It's integrated into their address bar, right, so they're, they always type, and they type their full sentences. I always said there's a great benefit of Google that you could type a whole sentence in there and get a good result, and people to turn their head away would be monumentally difficult. Not that it hasn't happened before.

0:38:09 - Emily Forlini
I agree it's going to take a little more.

0:38:11 - Lance Ulanoff
Yeah, google did it once. Right, google did it once with Chrome. When Chrome arrived, the dominant browser was Internet Explorer and Netscape to some extent. And well, you know, Mozilla to some extent, and well, you know Mozilla Firefox. Good luck, you know. But most of those are just rounding errors at this point. So it's possible, but not likely, right?

0:38:37 - Emily Forlini
So my last question on this point if you had to make a prediction for when ChatGPT a year when ChatGPT would start eating into, uh, google's usage or, let's say, search volume, do you, do you have a prediction for that or do you think that would happen?

0:38:54 - Lance Ulanoff
um, I don't know that it'd be part of his marketing right? We talked about how it showed up as chat gpt search. That's confusing to me. Why didn't they go with with search GPT? I was ready for it, I thought it was great. They own the URL, from what I understand.

So here's what I'm thinking that maybe they're still going to do that, but they're kind of sort of test drive, letting people test drive it right now it's inside the thing, but a year from now or maybe, because it's AI time, which is always faster, maybe it's six months from now it shows up at SearchGPT with an even better interface. And then they you know they work with their partners to get it put into more places. Maybe they work with some OEMs to have it, you know, resident on new computers. Maybe they work with their new friend, apple and get it integrated in some way at a platform level there, or the app to show up on iPhone. So there's a lot of different opportunities that they can pursue. If they pursue any of them, that changes the game. And then, 18 months from now, maybe they have like 5% and I know that doesn't sound like a lot, but that's a measurable amount and it could grow from there, especially if people are truly satisfied.

The last thing I will say because I said this to someone else and I actually believe this is really true is that, broadly, what I'm realizing is that the way we search is changing, no matter what we are going to go in an AI-powered search direction. That is obvious to me. It is better. You're going to get better results, you're going to feel more supported. It's going to happen. It's just a question of who's going to lead it. Google open AI, someone else?

0:40:40 - Emily Forlini
I agree, I agree, and it's important to start planning for that, especially from people like us who make content and people who consume content, just adjusting to that reality, for sure.

0:40:50 - Lance Ulanoff
Oh, yeah, yeah, the economics. Let's not talk about that.

0:40:53 - Emily Forlini
I know you would have been the perfect person to talk about, since you have been in the industry for so long. You're a former editor at PCMag editor-in-chief, where I work now, so I could tell you things.

0:41:07 - Lance Ulanoff
I could tell you things about the way this industry has changed, going back decades.

0:41:10 - Emily Forlini
It's crazy. I'll have you back or I'll set up another time to talk.

0:41:14 - Abrar Al-Heeti
Yeah.

0:41:15 - Emily Forlini
Thank you, Lance. So where can people follow you if they want to stay in touch and read your work?

0:41:20 - Lance Ulanoff
Yeah, obviously, techradarcom. They can look on something called X threads. They can look on something called X threads, TikTok on there, so all of the usual places.

0:41:31 - Emily Forlini
Okay, perfect. Thank you so much, it's a pleasure. We have one more guest today, but first we are going to take another quick break.

0:41:41 - Mikah Sargent
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0:44:15 - Emily Forlini
All right. Next we're here with Dan Patterson, director of Content at Blackbird AI. He wrote a piece for ZDNet about how this election that has been taking up so much of our time this week is going to affect the tech industry. Welcome, dan.

0:44:30 - Dan Patterson
Hey, it's great to see you.

0:44:33 - Emily Forlini
All right, so we want to get in. Obviously, trump won and we're just going to talk a little bit about what he has said about tech. We are going to probably try to stay away from making all things Elon Musk I think we'll just try it out just kind of remove him from the conversation a little bit, even though he certainly is a big tech influence. We're going to focus on Trump, what he has said, what he is planning to do and what we know about that. So I'll kick it off to you Tell me some of the big things that we should expect from him.

0:45:05 - Dan Patterson
Hi. Well, it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me, and just a little context. I am not a Democrat or a Republican and we're not talking about the partisanship. I know all of your listeners are familiar with that and in fact, that's one of the things I love about the Twit Network is that we can focus on the technology and the policies and not so much the horse race. I have covered politics, in fact, every political campaign, since 2004. This is the first one I've said on my butt at home for in a long time and I'm sure glad I did, although I once again covered a lot of the technology.

My day job is the director of content and comms at Blackbird AI here in New york city, uh, but I have written for zdnet for 10 years now, uh, Jason Heiner is the editor there and their entire team is just fantastic, just like pc mag same owners, great team, great people and great tech coverage. So when it comes to the president-elect, the honest answer is that I don't know. We don't know and it's hard to really get an understanding of granular policy. But what we can do is look at what he has said in the past and during this campaign and we can look at his previous administration. The way I reported this story was by interviewing well over a dozen technology and tech policy experts. One of the really interesting things that I found was that, because this particular campaign was so exhausting on both sides for so many people, that it was really hard to get experts to go on record, although many of them were certainly willing to fill me in on background, what we learned was especially about what we can kind of expect from the incoming president can be summed up in one word, and that is deregulation, or at least the easing of what they have his administration and his campaign has referred to as overregulation.

And I spoke with Ivana Bartolini, who I speak with many times. She is the director of policy at YPRO, of tech policy at YPRO, and both of them told me that Lena Kahn, who has kind of been a favorite of the Democrats, is likely to be replaced and many of her um, uh, the the ftc's policies will be, uh, likely eased, at least when it comes to her relationship with the technology industry and fang companies, which are are most of the large technology companies. We can probably see an ease of regulation when it comes to artificial intelligence. Now, that really is a complicated topic because it stretches from the CHIPS Act to the current administration's policies on AI bias. So when we say AI, it really is kind of this bundle of technologies and policies that are together.

But I think that we can see broadly at least according to Chloe Otto we can see an ease of the regulation policies. I think we can probably take the same approach when it comes to crypto and cryptocurrency. We saw, right after the election was called, we saw a surge of Bitcoin to over $72,000, which was a high for the cryptocurrency. So when it comes to specifics, again it's very difficult to get a read, but deregulation, or an ease of what they call overregulation, is the name of the game.

0:49:07 - Emily Forlini
Right, and I think also with that point I mean Trump is a fan of big business and letting businesses kind of thrive. Or some people might say, save too much money, not pay taxes, that kind of thing. So I think maybe big tech will benefit, whereas maybe with Kamala Harris's plan, there was a lot more talk that I heard about startups, about funding smaller businesses, which could have maybe added more diversity into the tech sphere. But what I'm seeing is the big tech companies are all congratulating Trump. They're hoping to not have too many restrictions on their AI development, and I think that's what we're going to see. The only counterpoint is I don't think that's what we're gonna see. The only counterpoint is I don't think that the Democrats were gonna really regulate AI. I don't think we have made much progress as a country on that and personally I didn't see a huge path to any AI regulation in either scenario. So sometimes I wonder, in AI specifically, will it? Will it really be that big of a difference from what we have today or what we would have had?

0:50:09 - Dan Patterson
Well, I think that we will see. Well, I'm trying to choose my words carefully here because there is so much loaded into artificial intelligence, but we will probably see an ease of the current administration's AI Bill of Rights, and this encompassed things like deepfakes, disinformation and facial recognition. So I think that when we look at, probably, how they will first make big changes, it will be altering the current administration's AI Bill of Rights.

0:50:48 - Emily Forlini
Right, and we did see Trump playing around with AI kind of childlike I think. It was kind of just oh, I can create an image and he posted it on his Twitter account and he kind of learned he could create art with AI during his campaign. So maybe he's also warming up to it too. Do we have any sense of his you know, technology chops or or what he he brings to a technology conversation?

0:51:12 - Dan Patterson
I feel like you know, we have this conversation during every um campaign and uh subsequent administration. What has been so interesting to me following this is not so much uh any one candidate's particular capabilities, but their um use of technology in the campaign. Going back to 2008. Um I I remember the obama campaign so clearly, building mybarackobamacom, which integrated with the facebook api, which at the time was really hot. It allowed them access to a lot of data that at the time they said this helped with GeoTV and micro targeting, so it was a real innovation. Of course, social media wasn't new at that time, but for the mainstream, by 2012 and the Romney campaign, that was truly the social media campaign. By 2012 and the Romney campaign, that was truly the social media campaign.

I know we talk about that in subsequent cycles, but really it was 2012, where Twitter and other large tech platforms were used at scale by both campaigns, and then by 2016,. Of course, we were talking about Cambridge Analytica and the exploitation of technology. So what's really been more interesting to me is you know, once a president is in the Oval Office, obama very famously had an iPad that he said was so limited it was like for babies. You know, that's the tech capabilities at that point, if you're touching your phone, it's very strange. The president should not be touching or using technology directly, at least according to many people from the White House. But the run-up to it, I'm really fascinated by the next cycle. Artificial intelligence will be more mature, cryptocurrency will be more mature and technology policy will be more mature. Cryptocurrency will be more mature and technology policy will be more mature as well.

0:53:11 - Emily Forlini
Yeah, I mean, that's a great history going up to kind of where we are today and raises a lot of questions about how Trump will use technology, not just in his campaign, just to run the country. So we'll definitely get into that. We're going to take a very quick break. We have just one last message from Mikah.

0:53:28 - Mikah Sargent
All righty. One more quick break here on Tech News Weekly. I want to tell you about US Cloud. Who are bringing you this episode.

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0:56:30 - Emily Forlini
All right, thank you. Remote vacation status, Mikah. We are back with Dan. We are talking about Trump and how his administration could shape the future of the tech industry. So, dan, I know we don't want to. It's hard to know exactly what he's going to do, but if you had to bet on one area where we would see some changes in terms of tech from him, what do you think that would be?

0:56:54 - Dan Patterson
Well, you know, typically my answer here is, like we said at the top of the segment, it is regulation. But when it comes to technology hard technology I think that facial recognition is something I'm paying attention to. I don't know what will change, but I think that when it comes to the Biden administration's policies are pretty clear, enumerated in the Bill of Rights, and I'm just so fascinated to see how this technology, which is changing so quickly and facial recognition is becoming so much better, so quickly. I wonder the not just business opportunities, but how we might see policy changes related to that and all the ancillary technologies. I work for a technology company that seeks out deep fakes and disinformation able to mimic or at least be used as a cyber attack or as as some sort of uh, disruptive technology. So when I say I want to see how they change their policies, I think related to cyber security as well, but I I don't have a great answer for you, but this is something that kind of piques my curiosity yeah, I hadn't thought about facial recognition specifically.

0:58:26 - Emily Forlini
I I do know that's enumerated and also the eu ai act and it's that's right yeah it's been something that's been focused on elsewhere. Um, either, maybe in china being an extreme example, using it in every, every subway, every street corner, cameras everywhere logging what people's faces look like. Then maybe europe being on the opposite end of the spectrum saying you, you know it's illegal to record someone's face in public without them knowing. So what are you thinking about when it comes to facial recognition in the US?

0:58:55 - Dan Patterson
Actually I think a lot about consumers, just like in Europe. You know, we've seen, and those policies put into place, the leaps that we've seen here with Clear, for example, or when you go to the airport. These technologies were not reliable even five years ago and seeing the consumer use of this technology just makes me think that the business use must be so much more advanced so much more advanced, right, right, but we'll see.

0:59:29 - Emily Forlini
I mean sometimes, with deregulation, can we interpret that as the government will not be taking an active role in shaping the development of tech and leaving it to the tech companies? Is that kind of what deregulation looks like in this environment?

0:59:41 - Dan Patterson
I think that that is often the conception of deregulation. But look the honest way, the best way to answer your question is that I don't know, and anybody who is proclaims they do know really does not. We can only look at some precedent for the incoming president. But he has been so inconsistent on policies that right now we just have to kind of wait and see and then we can kind of divine things as we get drips of policy in the first couple months right, all right.

1:00:16 - Emily Forlini
So don't go out and invest in some niche technology just yet maybe not maybe just wait, maybe give it a couple months. Maybe, All right, we'll see. All right. Well, thank you, dan. Any anything else to add or anything else you're we were watching about, about policies and tech.

1:00:38 - Dan Patterson
Uh, I'm looking to see how the transition team operates. I hope that that gives us a little glimmer. But I think this is what is really interesting right now are the the unknown. Unknowns Typically we have I sound a little bit like an old defense secretary of the United States, but we typically we have known unknowns. We know that we, the, the incoming administration, will make changes. In this case, we really don't know what or what the decision-making apparatus will be, so it's hard to, if that makes any sense. We don't know the shape or the topography of the administration yet, so we don't really know where the peaks or valleys will be.

1:01:19 - Emily Forlini
Pardon me, right and it doesn't sound like there is a clear technology plan from the administration.

1:01:24 - Dan Patterson
There is no clear plan about anything, although there are a number of adjacent plans. Yeah.

1:01:35 - Emily Forlini
Well, we'll see. Hopefully, in a couple of months we have some first actions and something to go off of.

1:01:39 - Dan Patterson
Yeah, let's do this again in six months and I'm sure I'll have some different answers for you.

1:01:44 - Emily Forlini
All right, perfect, thank you. Where can people find you online? How can they keep up with you and your work?

1:01:50 - Dan Patterson
You know, going back to those early days of social media, I was just talking with Jason Heiner at CDNet. He and I were both very early on Twitter, but I just don't use social media much anymore. I have a newsletter at news.danpatterson.com and you can read a lot of what we're working at blackbird.ai/blog. We just put out a large report about Telegram and Russian propaganda influence on that network, which is pretty fascinating.

1:02:20 - Emily Forlini
Interesting, all right. Well, we'll have to do this again in six months and it was fun chatting with you.

1:02:24 - Dan Patterson
You too, Emily, thanks.

1:02:26 - Emily Forlini
Tech News Weekly publishes every Thursday at twit.tv/tnw. That's where you can go to subscribe to the show in audio and video formats. If you want to get all of Twit's shows ad-free, check out Club Twit for $7 per month. That gets you every Twit show with no ads, an exclusive TWiT+ feed with extra content and a members-only Discord channel, which is a lot of fun. That's twit.tv/clubtwit. You can also subscribe to individual shows on Apple Podcasts for $2.99 a month and you'll get the audio feed completely ad-free. And if you want to follow my work, I write for PCMag. I write about AI, electric vehicles, all things tech industry. You can find me at PCMag, at Emily Forlini, or all of my social media accounts are at Emily Forlini. So thank you so much and Mikah will be back next week. Bye.