MacBreak Weekly Episode 826 Transcript

 MacBreak Weekly Episode 826 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for MacBreak Weekly. Alex Lindsay is here, Andy Ihnatko here and filling in for Renee Richie for the next 10 or so years. The inimitable Jason Snell joins the MacBreak Weekly panel. Lots to talk about Mac O S's lockdown mode. In fact, we've now got public betas for all the OSS. We'll talk about whether it's time for you to try it. There's a lot more to come. As we welcome Jason Snell to the MacBreak Weekly family. Next. Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is TWiT.

Leo Laporte (00:00:42):
This is MacBreak Weekly episode, 826 recorded Tuesday, July 12th, 2022. Snelled it. This episode of MacBreak Weekly is brought to you by Collide. Collide is an endpoint security solution. Built around honest security. You can meet your security goals without compromising your values. Visit break. To learn more and activate a 14 day free trial today. No credit card required. And by our crowd, our crowd helps the credited investors. I invest early in pre IPO companies alongside professional venture capitalists. Join the fastest growing venture capital investment slash Mac break. And by express VPN. When your phone carrier tracks you, that's a gross invasion of privacy. You can keep letting them cash in on you or visit express break. To get the same VPN I use. Take back your online privacy today and use my link to get three extra months free. It's time for MacBreak Weekly to show we cover the latest apple news and there's some news actually on our part, but first let me introduce Mr. Alex Lindsay of office

Alex Lindsay (00:02:01):
Hello? Hello. Hello?

Leo Laporte (00:02:04):
Okay. You are of course at oh nine. Oh.Media. If people, we were, we watched this morning at 7:30 AM the NASA feed of the first five images from the James web telescope, which were mind boggling. But during the feed we're going, they should have called Alex <laugh>. They should have called Alex what? It's hard. It's hard.

Alex Lindsay (00:02:26):
Yeah. It's, it's doing live events, especially live virtual events is really divided, you know, and that's why we get up every day and talk about it, you know, seven days a week is cuz we're, it's hard to do. And it takes a lot of thinking.

Leo Laporte (00:02:38):
So NASA oh nine,, just, you know, a hint <laugh> next time

Alex Lindsay (00:02:43):
They have my number. They

Leo Laporte (00:02:45):
Didn't have like people's microphones weren't on the, the at one point the, the presenter says somebody else is talking and you can hear a loud and clear saying, I'm hearing other people's voices in my IFP. What's going on? It's like, yes. So are we 

Alex Lindsay (00:02:59):
The hardest part, the har in fairness, I don't know what happened in there. I didn't see it cuz I was in office hours. But the hardest part with all of those things is clients and that could be, and all the hosts don't think that they should have to show up early to make this all, make sure that this all works. It is like the number one problem, reversal, baby, you set everything down. Now what we do to make that different is that we put actors or other people in the crew in there and run the whole thing. Yeah. You know, pretty, almost verbatim before they come in to make sure that all cause it's really hard if they don't show, if they don't executives

Leo Laporte (00:03:32):
Don't show, I understand presenters

Alex Lindsay (00:03:34):
Fill that in presenters

Leo Laporte (00:03:35):
Should know better, but you know, Hey with the pictures were great. The web worked really well. Andy and that goes also hears how you were at the Boston public library this week. Nice shot on your Insta.

Andy Ihnatko (00:03:47):
Yes. Now that's, that's terrible because it's the other, that's the, there was a good change and a bad change that the studio made during the pandemic. The good, since the pandemic, the good change was that. Now I can actually like do like zoom remotes so I could use my nice microphone and the nice broadband and the nice studio. So if I don't want to come in, but I want to come in, but it brings in the bad thing, which is, oh, now we're streaming on YouTube. Which brings that I had like, just, just like I had to shave before this show, like damnit, I have to like, I have to look nice for, for, for NPR. Like, okay.

Leo Laporte (00:04:18):
That's so they're doing video and now, which is good. We'll get that link. Before the end of the show,

Andy Ihnatko (00:04:23):
They've always, they've always had cameras so that if they wanna do like the, on, they have a PBS channel as well. So if they want do TV, but now it's like, oh, by the way, we're live streaming. So like, oh, okay. So I guess so, so, so I guess I, I guess that now people can actually see that what I'm saying. Yeah. I, I, I think that it was in 2009 when the EU actually passed this new, like, like you could actually see me, like I think it was in 2009 when the

Leo Laporte (00:04:47):
<Laugh> EU,

Andy Ihnatko (00:04:49):
That can't be right. So

Leo Laporte (00:04:51):
Now, you know, I have a strategically placed computer in front of me. That's tilted exactly with exactly the angle that no one can see what I'm doing and I sound smart. There you go. Andy, great to have you. Now we have a problem, Houston there's this empty seat on the panel because Renee Richie, who is by the way in the discord, if you wanna wish him luck club Toit members has passed on what? No, no, he's not. He's he's moved to a higher plane. No, no, wait a minute. That's not right. We're

Andy Ihnatko (00:05:22):
We're, we're joking. He's only dead to us.

Leo Laporte (00:05:24):
<Laugh> he is, we still don't know. And he says what did he say? The release hasn't gone out yet. But as, as soon as, as soon as release goes out, we'll tell you where he is now. Of course he's still at Richie, but we thought, well, who could we get with Renee stature in the apple community? He' inside knowledge of what's going on. Funny, talented gray haired. Who could we get? And I'm so thrilled to welcome Jason Snell as a regular. Hello. I've been trying to get you in this show for years decades. Hello, Jason.

Jason Snell (00:06:02):
Welcome. It's good to be here. It's an honor to succeed Renee. I mean he, 10 years on a podcast is a pretty big thing to do and we all, I know Renee going way back. We all love Renee it's it was on honor to be asked to do

Leo Laporte (00:06:17):
This. You have a lot of other things that you're doing. So I'm honored that you could make, frankly, could make some time to be here a couple hours a week. So thank you. I really appreciate

Jason Snell (00:06:25):
It. Sure. And I, today I just happened to be in the neighborhood. I actually live not that far away from 20 minutes, studios 20. That was about half an hour.

Leo Laporte (00:06:33):
An hour away. Wow.

Jason Snell (00:06:35):
Yeah. Quite a commute. I, I, I work outta my garage. So this was, it's like, oh, this is what a commute is like,

Leo Laporte (00:06:40):
It's so nice to see

Jason Snell (00:06:41):

Leo Laporte (00:06:41):
It's great to be here. You know, Jason's been on our shows since, you know, practically the beginning of TWI. You have six In fact, I think when you started with us on twit, you were still at Mac world. Oh

Jason Snell (00:06:52):
Yeah, for sure. In fact, I remember distinctly being on the first iteration of Mac break.

Leo Laporte (00:06:57):
Yeah. The video version

Jason Snell (00:06:58):
In the day, the

Leo Laporte (00:06:59):
Video version. Yeah. With Alex

Jason Snell (00:07:00):
In the, in the

Leo Laporte (00:07:00):
Old, well, and even before that was a regular call for help on tech TV. That's right. That's where we met. That's right. Since I've known you for 20 years.

Jason Snell (00:07:08):
Wow. That is yeah, because I was, I was an editor at Mac world and we were, we were down that was a long time ago cuz that we were down on Howard street back then, before we even check over street walk. So that was a, that was a long time ago. Yeah. That's nice. Of course we shared a Mike Jerry Day who I went to kindergarten with was one of your producers. That's

Leo Laporte (00:07:24):
Right. <Laugh>

Jason Snell (00:07:25):
Back in the day. Jerry

Leo Laporte (00:07:26):
Now runs the film production for some small town in

Jason Snell (00:07:31):
Thew county I think. Yeah. For up, yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:07:34):
Kind of a slow, slow bit slow job. But you know when movies need to be made, somebody has to be there to make they,

Jason Snell (00:07:39):
They, Alami county is where we both grew up is a great way. I didn't know we were gonna be talking about this, but it doubles for the old west a lot. So ah, a lot of there is a lot, a lot of film production up there. Okay. If you need to pretend that you're in the old west. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:07:52):
Well I'm glad I have a Jerry Day expert on the panel. Thank

Jason Snell (00:07:54):
You. Yeah, it's good. I know that was, that needed the beat. Just a shout out to Jerry he's out there somewhere.

Leo Laporte (00:07:58):
It is. So seriously it, it replacing Renee is tough because he has such great connections and such knowledge, but we couldn't do any better. Yeah. I don't think ever think any Jason, so of course you were good friends with Andy and Alex as well.

Andy Ihnatko (00:08:12):
So yeah, I mean, I was like, I was, I, I went, I often usually take my afternoon walk like right after the show. And so I just found out about Renee leaving right after the show. So I'm taking my hour long walk and unfortunately as usual, your, your thoughts are inside your head, which is a bad, bad thing. And I'm thinking, oh geez, what is surprise? I was too bad. And I'm thinking about how much I was gonna miss of like for having my nice two hour conversation with my, my really good friend, like Renee, cuz it's leads me ener just like with all of you guys, I I'm energized. It's like, it's very, very pleasant. Like, ah, geez, I'm gonna really miss that. Then when I find out that Jason is gonna be filling that slot. I mean, Jason and I have been friends for so long he's probably ticking me saying it, but so long that he's the person who told me how to bold face things in HTML. That's how long we've known each other.

Leo Laporte (00:08:55):
<Laugh> bracket B

Jason Snell (00:08:57):
Bracket. I, I was a my first job outta grad school was at MacUser magazine where Andy was a columnist. And so I've known Andy since, since the mid nineties, basically he's a long time now, long time. Wow.

Leo Laporte (00:09:09):
<Laugh> wow.

Andy Ihnatko (00:09:10):
He he's he's he's he's he's survived. Our friendship has survived him being my editor for a very long time. So that's that's that is like that, that, that is being like, that's like the sort of friendships you, you make in foxhole

Leo Laporte (00:09:22):
<Laugh> so the the camera crew has come in to take the official still shot. So if you would put your right hand inside your oh, you're wearing a t-shirt yeah,

Jason Snell (00:09:31):
I didn't know about the dress code.

Leo Laporte (00:09:32):
<Laugh> just teasing, just teasing. We did see some amazing images from the James web telescope. The first, my God five, my God many more will come. Rod pile joined me this morning at 7:30 AM. To take a look at these five rumor president what's his name? Oh yeah. Biden <laugh> yesterday revealed the first one, but there are five more. This is actually an interesting one because the James Webb is not an optical telescope. It has sensors in the infrared and other spectra. And so this is actually a fascinating shot of the spectra. And this is the image on the left that president Biden revealed yesterday. And that's gonna be very, very important as you look at the the spectrum, because it tells you something about the composition of the star, but also of the exo planets that they're planning to look at. In fact, yeah. One of these exo planets planted at 2000 degrees centigrade closer than mercury to its start. Yeah.

Jason Snell (00:10:35):
Very hot. That's hot Jupiter, basically.

Leo Laporte (00:10:36):
It's water.

Jason Snell (00:10:37):
Yeah. There's water vapor. Lot water atmosphere. Yeah. But it's really hot, but it's

Leo Laporte (00:10:40):
Hot water. Yeah. It's really awesome. It's hot water, really hot water. But the,

Andy Ihnatko (00:10:44):
The incredible thing is like, when you see the, you see this really fake looking picture that looks like you're when you go to like the museum of science and the gift shop, you can get one of those sport shirts that has just like lots of little pictures of galaxies in it. Like that's, that's how fake this thing looks. And then when you think about all of that is just within the field of view of the sky that is equivalent of a grain of rice hold held up at, at, at arm's level. It's like, oh my

Leo Laporte (00:11:06):
God, here's another, I'm not gonna learn so much interesting piece. This is the president Biden's image from yesterday. These galaxies look smeared that's because of the lens, right. Of the gravitational field

Jason Snell (00:11:18):
Of the foreground galaxy cluster, they're being creating a lens and you can see it. You can really see that circular distortion. It's amazing. That is all from, you know, Einstein basically predicting that the curving of light and

Leo Laporte (00:11:30):
It also magnifies these galaxies. So we actually get a better image of them. Thank you. To the star in front, this is one of the most dramatic images. Is this the Hubble version of the image that this is the, this is the web version of the image they have a

Andy Ihnatko (00:11:46):
Lot of before and em, and before and after is which says, okay, that's why this, they

Leo Laporte (00:11:49):
Needed this. Why that's actually, I don't know if this is a Hubble image or just another, I think it's another color of the, huh. It is the Hubble. Okay. No, it's not the hub. It's not the Hubble. It's the

Jason Snell (00:12:00):
GW S T yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:12:00):
This is, this is an amazing image of, and I apologize for those of you listening, but they have posted this, of course, on the NASA website. And there is a James web account on flicker, which is where I'm getting these high res images from and highly recommended. They're, they're, they're not quite 4k, but they're close to 4k, certainly suitable for your desktop wallpaper. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> John, tell me the name of this this Galax, this this is a Nebula. Is,

Jason Snell (00:12:27):
Is that the Karina Nebula?

Leo Laporte (00:12:28):
Yeah. Karina Nebula,

Jason Snell (00:12:29):
Which is the, the famous Karina Nebula and the Eagle Nebula. This is the like famous Hubble shots where you're looking at a stellar nursery essentially, where you've got these clouds of gas and there's stars inside them. And then with the infrared, you can actually look inside through the dust and see the little baby stars that are sort of like emerging from here. Isn't that amazing. And the other, the other thing that was mind blowing about this image, you see these images and you think, oh, that's nice. It's like a little cloud, but my understanding is the height of that cloud so-called cloud. It's about seven light years. Sure. So these are, these are stars scale, these some

Leo Laporte (00:12:59):
Dots, that's the, that's the size of the sun. Yeah. So yeah, it gives you some

Jason Snell (00:13:02):
Idea. So that that's, that's the distance, you know, essentially twice the distance between earth and the nearest star outside our sun. Yeah. And that's how big this cloud is.

Leo Laporte (00:13:10):
And above the cloud are the newest baby stars. In fact, they're pushing the cloud away. Right. Which is fascinating. They

Jason Snell (00:13:19):
Go out on the main sequence and they, and they, they start up their solar wind and they blow the gas,

Leo Laporte (00:13:23):
The gases away. This is another one of the famous quintile, or actually there're five, five galaxies here. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. You may remember from, it's a wonderful life. This is where angels get their wings. Oh, <laugh> I'm not, you think I'm getting, I'm not kidding. Nope. Nope. Solid. Yep. Good. That's solid, solid, solid cultural reference. We get you amazing shots. This is also one of my favorites here of another Nebula. Yeah. Just

Jason Snell (00:13:53):
Dramatic. Right. And that's a planetary Nebula. So that's a, that's a star that has ended its life. Or in this case, a binary, it turns out they actually, in the infrared, they resolved the two stars at the center, which is amazing. One, the thing you'll notice in all these shots, when you look at them, is there are like a, that shot off to the left. There's this, there's an E almost edge on galaxy in the, in the sort of upper left quadrant on the edge. Yeah. And that is a case where J w S T is so powerful and can see so far in the infrared that you have this thing that, you know, the Hubble did the deep field, where they took the shot of empty space and found all those galaxies. The new reality with the JWST is that every shot is gonna have these little background galaxies because it's so finally attuned. So even if they're looking nearby, there are also gonna be hundreds of galaxies in the background. Amazing. Everywhere

Leo Laporte (00:14:45):
You look, and, and by the way, here's a little thing you probably don't know about the James web space telescope, but when you click the magnifying glass and they may show this John, because you might be interested, it says, whoa, there tiger. This photo is already at maximum size <laugh>. So that's just how good that's how good that telescope.

Andy Ihnatko (00:15:02):
Yeah. Mary Jane Watson is running the public relations office.

Leo Laporte (00:15:05):
<Laugh> anyway, really, really exciting day. We will put it up on our TWI news feed. If you didn't see it, if you can watch our feed, which is probably maybe a little less stuttery than the next feed.

Andy Ihnatko (00:15:18):
I just, I just wanna ask Alex one question, like, what camera would you use that would've been better than the James web telescope for this, for this, for this event,

Alex Lindsay (00:15:26):
For the, for the, for the event or for the, the

Andy Ihnatko (00:15:29):
Telescope? No, for the tele, for the telescope. I I'm sure you've got some ideas.

Alex Lindsay (00:15:32):
Well, I think that there's a new area out that I think could be really good. We can put it out there and we're yeah, I think that, that it would, it would have a big zoom lens. We'd see what, see what would get, you know, but it's, it's really amazing to, to just see, you know, the incredible, incredible resolution, you know, and I think that, you know, we know that for the next decade, we're gonna be able to see a lot more,

Leo Laporte (00:15:53):
Yeah. 50, 50 gigabytes, a little more than 50 gigabytes a day, a maximum bandwidth of 28 megabits. So there is a lot of data coming back from that telescope every single day.

Andy Ihnatko (00:16:05):
Yeah. I just, this, this is, this is why I'm way more excited about spacecraft that we're sending out just to be observatories than I really am about permanent installations on the moon or on Mars, because this is, this just gives us so much hard science, so much, so much more bang for the buck when we do not have to sustain human life, the, all the expense, all the size, all the, all, all the kinds of, cause it comes with human space travel. It's important for us to learn how to live in space because that's such basic science that we don't have much of a, of a grip on. But the idea that, I mean, the Hubble was in such low orbit around the earth that you could actually send people out to service it. This is so far out that part of the engineering was look, we are never, ever going to be able to send anything out to fix anything on this thing. This has to be absolutely right. And, oh my goodness. The first, those first images there, the, the, the, the thoughts that it inspires the the sense of perspective and the, that it inspires just in normal people like you and me, as opposed to the scientists who are actually getting value from this. My goodness. What, what, what, what value for money?

Leo Laporte (00:17:12):
All right. So there, and I'm glad to see that Jason smells this space nerd. <Laugh> we? One more we can add to the show. We

Andy Ihnatko (00:17:21):
Can, he chase on the show was a good thing already. I

Leo Laporte (00:17:23):
Think we already demonstrated, wait a minute. Do we have a visitor from another planet? Is that Henry or Missy? Henry. Henry is in the, in the studio. My favorite alien. Why don't you bring him in just real quickly so we can we can see Henry has those very typical bulge eyes of all aliens. And and there he is. Yeah. Look at Mike's little Chihuahua. Hello, Henry. I'm. I've been trying to get Micah to bring the dogs in forever, forever. This is the first time. Yeah,

Speaker 5 (00:17:53):
This is, oh, wait. While he scoot

Leo Laporte (00:17:54):
Him then. Hey, little boy. Yeah. This is the first time. What planet is he from again? It's a planet love. Yes, exactly. <Laugh> the love planet. Thank you, Micah. All right. This, I feel like it feels like a family today. It's great. It's really fun to have everybody in here. I see my spy when my little eye Jason's running an iPad pro, is that the 11 or the 12? It's the 12,

Jason Snell (00:18:20):

Leo Laporte (00:18:22):
And I see on it something a little different you've got windows. Are you running the public beta?

Jason Snell (00:18:28):
I am.

Leo Laporte (00:18:29):

Jason Snell (00:18:30):
Public beta by iPad OS, which just came out.

Leo Laporte (00:18:32):
Today's the

Jason Snell (00:18:33):
Day yesterday, I

Leo Laporte (00:18:34):
Think yesterday. Yep. Would you so we, you now public, beta's a Ventura iPad OS 16, iOS 16. I think there might even be a watch in TV at public beta. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> part two. The question's gonna be should people run it or not? You know, I wasn't gonna do the Def beta. How stable is that?

Jason Snell (00:18:53):
It's okay. There are, there are, it's a beta. There are bugs. Yeah. So if you want to get the new stuff, you gotta, you gotta try it out. It's O it's usable. I, the, you need to have a reason, right? You need to really have a reason to, besides

Leo Laporte (00:19:06):
Like, I really want

Jason Snell (00:19:08):
It well with iPads and iPhones. It's hard to roll back. So you're really on a Mac. You can install it on another partition and you're okay with it. But on an iPad, you're kind of committing. And I'd say, if you've got an M one iPad stage manager might be worth it, it, it's still a work in progress. I'm

Leo Laporte (00:19:25):
Watching these windows. You go back and forth between these windows. It's like a

Jason Snell (00:19:28):
Computer. Yeah. It's almost like it's a computer. Isn't that weird? Isn't it? But like computer, you can touch, but it's still a work in progress. Like literally with the latest beta, they added command w to close a window, which they did not have before. It's like, you get the sense with the iPad stuff that like, they built this stage manager thing. And on the Mac, it works really well because the Mac has this whole history of window management. Right. And then you see it on the iPad and you're like, oh, the iPad has literally no windowing infrastructure at all. <Laugh> and they're building it on the fly this summer. Apparently. So command w came in, seems

Leo Laporte (00:19:59):
Like that would be one of the first things you,

Jason Snell (00:20:00):
You would think, but here we are.

Leo Laporte (00:20:02):
Yeah. but, and, and it, no big crashes, no blue screens of death.

Jason Snell (00:20:07):
I mean, I've had a crash while I was sitting here, but it generally court crashes back to the lock screen. And then you open it back up,

Leo Laporte (00:20:12):
Springboard, crash.

Jason Snell (00:20:13):
It's been, yeah, it's been okay so far, but again, if it's your phone that you, you, you need every day to, to live your life and you wanna see those new lock screens, I mean, balance those two things, cuz it's gonna be annoying for tell

Leo Laporte (00:20:25):
The truth though. You put it on your

Jason Snell (00:20:26):
Phone too. Didn't you? It's not on my regular phone. That's in my pocket. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:20:29):
Brave man. Not brave, man.

Jason Snell (00:20:31):
Nope. Coward,

Leo Laporte (00:20:32):
Coward. <Laugh>. How about you, Annie. Annie public beta in your, in your life?

Andy Ihnatko (00:20:38):
I have it, I have it on a I, I don't have it on my M one MacBook, iPad pro I have it on my on my older one. Be. And so you don't

Leo Laporte (00:20:47):
Get, you don't get stage manager in that then, do you?

Andy Ihnatko (00:20:50):
Yeah, unfortunately, no. Unfortunately I only have one M one iPad and it is a, as Jason says, it's a production thing. Yeah. If, if I'm kind of hosed, if I don't have it, same thing of, I do have the iOS 16 on my iPhone because my main phone is an Android. So I can, if, if I can't call an Uber, if I can't do banking on my, on my iPhone, that's not a big deal, but yeah, I can't, this is, I, I, I've been obviously watching as many other videos of people now that the, now that it's not developer mode and people are allowed to really talk about it and quote, review it unquote. I'm seeing not just the demos of stage manager, but you get to see people actually trying to make sense of it as it's in front of them. And, oh my goodness, I cannot wait for this. This is such a trans, it, it really is feeling like between the iPhone and the iPad IO iOS 16 is going to be the most transformative set of updates we've had in quite a while.

Leo Laporte (00:21:42):
Alex, will you use any of these BES?

Alex Lindsay (00:21:46):
I probably won't. <Laugh> to be honest, I'm just too busy to, I mean, I, I think I'll just wait for a little while. Maybe until January to test it, test it out January. I jumped in the Monterey, the fall I jumped in Monterey really fast. Like I was like, oh, this is gonna be great. And the fall was, was pretty rough. Yeah. For me burn. And so I'm, I, I feel like I was like, ah, there's just a lot of odd things that that happened. And so I, I think I'm just gonna like I'm gonna stick to it. Just, just let all of you take the front line. <Laugh> I'm gonna sit back and have some coffee. Say, just tell me how it goes. I mean, right now I can't even get my AirPods to I, my AirPods, you know, they wouldn't connect, so I reset them and now they just constantly tell me that somebody else's AirPods are near my phone.

Leo Laporte (00:22:25):
Oh, I hate that. When, when that happens,

Alex Lindsay (00:22:27):
I can't get it to like, so I'm like, if I can't get that to work, I think I'm gonna

Leo Laporte (00:22:30):
Stay out. Jason has a long of Ventura.

Jason Snell (00:22:35):
Yeah. The public data for meccas Ventura.

Leo Laporte (00:22:38):
You took no time to do that. You can't,

Jason Snell (00:22:40):
You must have had it a little bit earlier. I, there are other reviews on the web of this public beta that are five times as long, but I, I focused on the two features that I think are the most interesting. So stage manager and continuity camera which I think are the, I mean, I'd say shared the shared photo library stuff is also interesting. It's not just a Mac feature and it also just came out last week in the last developer beta. So I need to spend more time with it, but like continuity camera. I you're, you're scrolling through my, my image samples that I took in the worst possible lighting conditions. <Laugh> and the bottom line is, yeah. It turns out the iPhone camera. It's really good. Yeah. And also when you turn on center stage in continuity camera, it goes to that iPhones ultra wide, and you get exactly what you get on center stage on any device, which is a cropped ultra wide camera that isn't that great. And it's noisy and it doesn't handle light that well, so turn it off, but it auto pans, but if you turn it off, it uses the main camera on the iPhone better, which is glorious. Yeah. It's such a good camera. So that's the also

Leo Laporte (00:23:40):
Center stage. And I know Alex has mentioned this many times, it centers your head in the middle of the screen, it's it? Doesn't, which is the wrong place.

Jason Snell (00:23:48):
<Laugh>, there's no professional camera operator who would look at center stage behavior and think that they modeled proper behavior.

Leo Laporte (00:23:53):
And because I'm so used to my head being the above the third, every time I use center stage, I'm like trying to, yeah. Trying to get up on top of the, I mean, you're fucking up and it pans up and you can never get there

Alex Lindsay (00:24:06):
In, in fairness, it looks really good if you're putting it on a giant screen. So at 30 feet wide and you know, X amount of feet high, it actually looks pretty good. In that, in that frame, but not small

Leo Laporte (00:24:16):
Screens. So I, so this morning when we did, I, I was at home when we did cuz it was seven 30 freaking in the morning when we did the NASA thing. And I used camo with my iPhone. Right. Which has really been worth fantastic. But it's, it's not free. It's a, you know, you have subscription. Yeah. It's like 40 bucks a year or something. And but it does work really well. And I love it. And I've also used E cam, which does the same thing. How does con is it gonna, are they sherlocking camo?

Jason Snell (00:24:42):
It's the, it's the typical story where there are things that Apple's never gonna implement as features. I mean, I hope they do. And I took them to task and I will again about this, that like there are no webcam settings to speak of in Mac O S and there really should be camo. Lets you do things like crop the image and choose which part of the image you want. So if you need it to be a little bit tighter, you can do that. It'll lets you adjust the white balance and the focus and all these things and Apple's like, no, no, no, we'll we'll handle all of that. Yeah. Which is great when it works. It doesn't when it doesn't

Leo Laporte (00:25:12):
Work, I'm gonna be honest. It's frustrating. And maybe cuz it's low light and you have your big window behind you and, but these images aren't, I mean that the middle image is pretty good.

Jason Snell (00:25:19):
Well that's the thing is I was trying to do something very bad and see what it would look like. And the answer is that the regular iPhone camera managed it some

Leo Laporte (00:25:28):
Background. This is the MacBook pro camera, which is God awful potato.

Jason Snell (00:25:32):
Yeah. This the that's the M two. So it's a seven 20 P camera and it's and it's really poor.

Leo Laporte (00:25:36):
You see how much better the the iPhone camera is. Yeah. And then this is a wide angle. So you using center stage, but

Jason Snell (00:25:41):
Camo. I mean the other difference, cause camo is great in that it gives you settings. The advantage apple has the home field advantage of being the platform. Owner is camo. You've gotta open your iPhone. You gotta launch the camo app. You gotta make sure you don't touch in the wrong place and quit the camo app and then get it in its right place. And then launch the camera camo app on your Mac. And, and just to be clear about how this continuity camera stuff works is if your iPhone is logged into your apple ID and your iPhone is near your Mac, that's logged in with your apple ID. It shows up as a camera. You

Leo Laporte (00:26:09):
Don't even have to launch the

Jason Snell (00:26:10):
Camera app. You don't have to wake it up. You don't have to launch any apps. Oh, that is nice. And if you Mount it, it where it's perpendicular to your surface of the, of your desk, where it's on its side and the sensors in the iPhone sense that you're not holding it in your hand, but it's actually laying somewhere like above your display or whatever it automatically switches your max default camera to it. Cuz it realizes that it's been placed in basically webcam mode. Huh. So there's no interface to that. That's nice. And, and that's something that, you know, a only, only apple, I hate to say this this way, but it's like, it's a feature that the platform owner really can implement and it would be very hard for any third party to approach and, and that's where Apple's got it over camo, but then camos got all the fifthly settings, which are great and well, and that's why I think there'll still be a place for something like camo.

Leo Laporte (00:26:55):
So did you have to put iOS 16 on your phone to do?

Jason Snell (00:26:58):
Yeah. Okay. You gotta have both. Okay,

Leo Laporte (00:27:00):
Go ahead Alex.

Alex Lindsay (00:27:01):
Yeah. And I think that, you know, that's the, the real push, anytime some, a platform owner does something is to figure out what makes you different. You know, so camo camo has its own cropping and control. There's another app that, that I use called shoot, which you can, you can actually do tele illustration over your video just by drawing on it. You can, it actually has a frame, a framer that we use inside of office hours, the, the developer put into the, into shoot. So that frames your head properly, you know, you can see it on the phone. And so, so there's a lot of things that that people can find different ways to make them different, but they have to, they can't the, the, at this point just being a camera for the computer is no longer gonna be enough.

Leo Laporte (00:27:40):
And then you also, Jason, you show the the desk view, which is this weird thing. And I think you'd have to have, how, what kind of camera would you have to be using? Is it the, not the camera on the laptop? It has to be,

Jason Snell (00:27:52):
No, it uses the iPhone camera. It uses the

Leo Laporte (00:27:53):

Jason Snell (00:27:54):
Feature of the iPhone camera ultra wide and the ultra wide capture captures such an enormous,

Leo Laporte (00:27:58):
So wide

Jason Snell (00:28:00):
Span. Yeah. That it can see what's in front of you theoretically. So like this is San Diego for, so we can see my U C S D coaster, which is upside down. But the image is right set up. The idea is to share what's on your desk. There are a lot of problems with this, like on a laptop. What it means is you need to push the laptop so far back that there's space in front of the laptop, in which for you to place things at which point you're reaching out way out to an unnatural position to reach your laptop. But there are cases where that could be useful and it's implemented apple implemented it as an app because they know that you're probably gonna use this with something like zoom. Right. And you're gonna want to use it in the context of a, essentially a screen share. Right. Except you're sharing physical space in

Leo Laporte (00:28:40):
Front of your computer all the time with his fancy, fancy setup.

Jason Snell (00:28:43):
Sure. I've got a camera mounted on my ceiling to do this. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:28:46):
And, and exactly. And of course on iOS today Mike is always doing that and I think Mary Rosemary is also doing it. But I think they have separate cameras pointing at there.

Jason Snell (00:28:57):
Yeah. This is literally if you're using center stage and you're using desk view, it's just using crops of the same ultra wide angle camera. Yeah. And using it in different ways, the quality isn't great, but it's not bad. It's not bad.

Leo Laporte (00:29:08):
The issue is really is actually

Jason Snell (00:29:09):
The issues really that you, you, you, this isn't gonna be a thing you do accidentally. You're gonna have to push your laptop way back in order to make a stage for it. Or if you're on a desktop, you're going to need to push your desktop back enough. That there's space right in front. But it's no, it's no mistake that apple demo this with an iMac instead of with a laptop, because it actually kind of makes more sense in that context, cuz you have a desk in front of the computer

Leo Laporte (00:29:32):
And yeah. And considering how it must be zooming in quite a bit on the wide angle. Yeah. That's not, that's not bad. It

Jason Snell (00:29:39):
Looks pretty good when you consider how terribly deest distorted and scaled, it must be.

Leo Laporte (00:29:44):
Yeah. Is your daughter at U C S D? Is that what?

Jason Snell (00:29:46):
No, I, I went to U U to U S I've got the coaster. You prove it. You can <laugh> I bought one. That was a instead

Leo Laporte (00:29:51):
Of a diploma, they give you a coaster that seems

Jason Snell (00:29:53):
Appropriate. I was just there on the campus. You go to the university of stores. There's merch. You choose, you make your choice, choose your merch.

Leo Laporte (00:30:00):
I'm just teasing. You just teasing you. Where, where have your kids decided to go? By

Jason Snell (00:30:06):
The way both my kids are now ducks. They're both gonna go. They're ducks. My, my daughter's already at university of Oregon and my son is going this fall. Nice. So more trips, more car trips to Eugene, at

Leo Laporte (00:30:14):
Least you might, you were one place instead of two. So that's

Jason Snell (00:30:16):
Not that's that's true. And I know all the places to stay and stuff, so that's that's

Leo Laporte (00:30:20):
Nice. Yeah. All right. How do you get the beta? You have to do, you have to be a, do you have to have a developer account to do this?

Jason Snell (00:30:28):
Nope. Anybody can. Anybody can do

Leo Laporte (00:30:29):
Is public.

Jason Snell (00:30:30):
Yeah. Public is public. You sign up and you download a, a profile or an installer and, and you're off to the

Leo Laporte (00:30:36):
Races. So you go to You have to have an apple account, but of course you have one, right? And look at this you can, you can put it on iOS, iPad, OS Mac OS TV OS watch OS even home pod. Is there a public beta home pod software? 16, I guess there is. I might put my home pods on, on 16. Why not? What, why should I

Jason Snell (00:31:02):
What's what's the benefit though?

Leo Laporte (00:31:03):
What's the benefit? I, it's not clear. Yeah, but good for apple. They have to they have to do this. So you go to beta, You sign in with your apple ID, apple knows what devices you have attached to that ID. Then you go to these various devices, you open the settings and you look for software updates and you'll have to, in on some of these devices say, get beta updates. Like the TV OS you'll have to say, get beta updates. Right. And then you'll have it

Andy Ihnatko (00:31:27):
On, on an update on a device. Like HomePod is usually about compatibility with the iOS matter. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:31:31):
Of course. That makes sense.

Andy Ihnatko (00:31:32):
It's possible. It's possible that to stop working unless you update

Leo Laporte (00:31:35):
It. Yeah. It's not gonna change everything to Louis prima music or anything like

Jason Snell (00:31:39):
That. <Laugh> probably not, but you never,

Leo Laporte (00:31:41):
It wouldn't be bad. I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

Jason Snell (00:31:43):
<Laugh> and you should know. Also if you rely on continuity features like like the extended display modes and things like that, that that require like an iPad and a Mac, if one of them's on the beta and one of them's on the current version. Yeah. All that stuff can break. So if you

Leo Laporte (00:32:00):
Just be in line, you're kinda committed. If you go with one, go with all

Jason Snell (00:32:03):
Probably. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:32:04):
As they say, my

Jason Snell (00:32:05):
Univers control setup is, is broken.

Leo Laporte (00:32:07):
So goes one, one goes one a so go a song.

Jason Snell (00:32:10):
Sure. But that, but

Andy Ihnatko (00:32:11):
That, but that's kind of okay. Cuz one of the

Leo Laporte (00:32:13):
On public

Jason Snell (00:32:14):
Beta it's apple and on apple

Leo Laporte (00:32:15):
And on yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (00:32:16):
Yeah. One of the basic features I think of Iowa 16 is that you have all of these cross device features so that it kind of makes sense to update them all at once. Cause otherwise you're not kind of getting the, if you, if you're getting all the pain of a beta, you should get all the joy of a beta. And I think cross platform use is gonna be one of the, one of the joys.

Leo Laporte (00:32:34):
Yeah. I think that's one of the big selling points. Isn't it? You know, not just using your phone as a camera, but all sorts of continuity features and handoff features and and all of that stuff. All right. Let's take a little break. Jason Snell survived his first segment. <Laugh> he's he didn't even break a sweat. I'm gonna take a knee, take a breath. Awesome. Awesome. Our show today brought to you by coli K O L I D E love this idea because you know, I'm, I kinda have to wear two hats at the company. I am, you know, employee and I I'm a user, but I also am in management. And so it's my interest to keep everybody secure and safe. I think a lot of times, certainly in the old days, if you had, you know, users in your company and it was in basically would lock it down, right?

Leo Laporte (00:33:27):
They'd use MDM, mobile device management, lock it down. You know, sometimes in some companies that go so far as to put crazy glue in the USB ports and stuff because they didn't trust users. But there's a problem with that kind of thinking, which is that users know you don't trust them. They get frustrated by the limitations. They wanna use devices. Like they use their home devices and now they're kind of adversarial. They decide I'm gonna do it my way, worst case scenario, they, instead of the using the company provided laptop or phone, they start using their own. And that's when the nightmare begins. Collide has a different kind of attitude about all this collide is an endpoint security system built around honest security. I love that phrase, honest security, their philosophy is employees. Aren't your biggest security risk. They're your allies. Don't make adversaries at them out of them.

Leo Laporte (00:34:24):
Your relationship with them should be based on transparency and informed consent. And I can tell you from real experience that does work. You know, I know a lot of you going, no, I can't trust them. I can't. No you can. And frankly especially if you've got engineers and developers, they want to be able to use their machines, you know, as they would use their home machines, which means they end up working on their personal devices and then they bring that personal device into work and disaster ensues, collide works with your employees via slack. Now you have to be a slack house to do this. I know many of you are, we are what's so cool. Is it notifies your employees of security issues via slack? It educates them on what's going on, why it's important and then gives 'em step by step instructions on how to fix the problem themselves, that offloads your it department, but also enrolls your employees as allies in this fight it.

Leo Laporte (00:35:20):
So it, it starts frankly, when you start with, by them putting the collide agent on their device, it explain it walks. It gives them a message in slack saying, Hey, we're, we're just starting. This we're gonna use collide, help us install it, blah, blah, blah. It's so smart for it. And security teams collide provides the right level of visibility from it's by the way, Mac, windows, and Linux. It addresses high risk issues that actually can't be solved through brute force or automation go to the collide website. You can actually see the messages collide will send via slack and you can see how I think what a brilliant way. It's honest security. What's more, it protects your employee's privacy. And we know how much people care about privacy. These days with collide, your end users can see exactly why and how every piece of data is being collected.

Leo Laporte (00:36:10):
There is literally in collide a user privacy center, plus their source code is open it's. Yeah, it's open source so they can see the open source code base. They can know exactly what's going on, especially for engineers and developers. This becomes very, very important. And we know, you know, we want end users to pick up the slack as it were <laugh> you can meet your security goals. You can without compromising your values. It's open, it's honest. And frankly it's not top down. It's not top down. It, it makes an ally of your users visit break and gets started free trial for you. K O L I D break. They'll also hook you up. If you follow that address, they'll hook you up with a goody bag just for activating that free trial. I have my collide stickers on my laptop, my collide t-shirt that's K O L I D break. I I'm so happy to have these guys on our on our air because I think this is the right way to do it. And if you're a slack a shop, you should absolutely give it a try. K O L I D and make sure you do the slash Mac break. So you get the goodies, but you also let them know you saw it here. We like that. That's good for us.

Leo Laporte (00:37:32):
Okay. Moving right along. That was the big story. Of course, the, the public betas big article in the information this week, and I know information is pay walled. A lot of you, I paid just so I can read these stories. They have very good inside sources. Wayne ma interviewed, I guess, has a lot of sources wrote a very interesting piece inside Apple's eight year struggle to build a self-driving car. Just to give you an idea of where we're going here, subhead, meaningless demos, false hopes and map handicaps interviews with 20 people who have worked on Apple's self-driving car project, shed new light on its troubled effort to build a car that can drive itself almost anywhere in the world. Now, according to trip ho trip nickel in his book, which I know you read you didn't read it. No, I didn't read it.

Leo Laporte (00:38:27):
Oh, I'll give you my copy. Okay. It's it's worth reading it's stories. We all know like, but some of the stuff from an inside, we didn't know, for instance, according to nickel's book after Steve the whole idea of the car project did not come from the top down. Didn't come from Tim cook, but came from employees who said, we are mad that we're not involved in this car business, and we're gonna leave for Tesla, cuz we wanna work on self-driving cars. And Tim cook was basically blackmailed into doing this mm-hmm <affirmative> once you know that a lot of this makes more sense <laugh> there, you know? And, and it also makes me really wonder how, how serious management is about making this a, a business did. Yeah. What Andy,

Andy Ihnatko (00:39:12):
It, no, it's, it's really shocking. The way that this story has evolved since the first leak from wall street journal years ago. Because if you'll, if you'll remember one of the things that got all of us so excited about this was that whatever the pitch deck for this project was when they showed it to people inside the auto industry who were top level people, top level executives with huge careers at the best makers, they were getting these people to quit GM, to quit GM, quit BMW and go work on this project at apple. It really did sound like something that was a priority that they had a focus in mind. And now here we are in 2021 and 2022, where almost every two months we keep hearing about a critical member of the team has left and was snapped up by a competitor. You don't let people leave if they're, if they're, if, if they are, if you're close to something that you're really, really invested in. So I think this is a really good insight into is this is, this is this one of Apple's other BES. If, if apple listed projects, the way that Google does, if this is not, so this is something that we're just sort of working out. We have enough resources. We can see if this is a thing

Leo Laporte (00:40:17):
It's kind

Andy Ihnatko (00:40:17):
Really does look like it's

Leo Laporte (00:40:18):
Kind of a move another bit, you know, X project corn kind

Alex Lindsay (00:40:22):
Of the thing is, is that what they're trying to do? What everybody's trying to do is really hard. You know, it's hard to do it because the roads are a mess and there's people on them and there's things that go across and there's construction. And, and so everybody is, I mean, different people are at a different level of where they're at based on what they started with and what the requirements they've decided are. Okay. But, but I think apples is very high, what their expectations are. And I think that it is a it, it, it's, it's a very, very difficult thing, which is what you take on as a big company, if you've got the cash to do it, because it, the chances of getting a lot of competition, if you are very, you know, if you take on the AR VR market, the, the car market, the, some of these are very hard to unwrap. And if you get there, there won't be a lot of people around you to compete.

Leo Laporte (00:41:07):
The biggest takeaway from the story is that that software problems have been the biggest factor in the pro programs, struggles. They mention you know, when you're talking about departures, Annie, they mention the departure of Ian Goodfellow, who is a, you know, very renowned machine learning scientist and a big get for the car project. He had been leading according to Wayne ma writing in the information, an effort to infuse deep learning into Apple's self-driving software. The self-driving software did well on highways, but failed miserably was running up on curbs and stuff on the city streets of Sunnyvale Goodfellow's key role with Titan and the team's use of his machine of his underscore, his machine learning models to improve software hasn't been previously reported. And ma is saying that his departure actually leaves a big hole. I mean, there are a lot of people it's been a revolving door. A lot of people have left, but you figure apple can, you know, get people to replace those people. Yeah. But there's some like Ian Goodfellow who are such at such a high level. There aren't a lot of people like him,

Jason Snell (00:42:12):
Tesla, obviously, because Elon Musk is obsessed with it. Tesla has been trying this a very long time and Google's been trying this a very long time. And I think what we have to admit is that this is a very, very, very hard problem. The self-driving car part, and it may not be solved for a while if ever. And I know that, that there are people out there who are like, no, no full self-driving is just a year away. And Heidi, Elon Musk, who is probably who said that. Yeah, but it is like fusion. It's always a few years away and it's not here. And, and that doesn't have to be a failure, right? Because there are lots of safety modes and ways to protect drivers that aren't full self-driving that take the electric car of the future forward. Without it being like, there are these rumors that Apple's goal was to make a full self-driving car without controls.

Jason Snell (00:43:01):
Right. And the moment I heard that, I thought that car will never ship because it will, or at least not never meaning like not in the next decade, because to get a car that can't be controlled by people or not easily, and is just gonna rely on full self-driving. Like there are places where self-driving on highways could be workable now or soon, and then lots of places where it isn't. I have to wonder after WWDC last month, if what Apple's really doing here is workshopping a whole bunch of car tech and figuring out what works. Cause when

Leo Laporte (00:43:32):
You saw that, you're talking about that CarPlay demo.

Jason Snell (00:43:33):
Yeah. When you see that next generation CarPlay, some parts of that probably have to come from a real time operating system. And it does make you wonder if Apple's ultimate play here may end up just being that they built a real time operating system for project Titan. And now they're going to work with car makers to do an Android automotive kind of move and safety features. And other features might be a part of that. But you know, maybe it ends up being that that's the place where apple can play. And they, I don't think that that means Titan is necessarily a failure. I feel like they had to figure out what they could contribute, but it may not be that they can contribute a whole apple cars.

Leo Laporte (00:44:10):
That's not a bad business to be a, to licensing an operating system to cars. MOS says in the article that apple is make, it's raised the question, whether Apple's making a major business mistake by betting on nothing less than full autonomy. Yeah. If that's really, I mean, I don't know if that's the case, but if they're saying no, no, it has to be fully autonomous, as you said, that could be, who knows? That's that's, that's

Andy Ihnatko (00:44:30):
That's if they, if, if they're looking for full autonomy or if they're looking to make an actual car product that they actually sold the consumers, that's very, very concerning because there's, there's a lot of heat between advanced driver assist systems. Those are amazing. They're a real product. They work. They're they're they, the contribution they make to safety is amazing. Just the ability to simply say, when you're getting onto, when you're getting on, when you're about to leave a local street, and you're about to take an exit for a highway on rep to say, help me get onto the highway. That is, that is a problem that the, that these systems can absolutely do the idea of, even on surface street break from, do you have permission to, to initiate, emergency breaking if it's necessary. That is also something that these systems do very, very well, all the stuff that works, all the stuff that the, that the department of transportation is really, really endorsing as something we're gonna support you with legislation.

Andy Ihnatko (00:45:20):
We're gonna support you with standards, all that sort of stuff. That's software, that's not a that's, that's not operating system level stuff. And there are already players in this game that have been doing this for two or three generations. They know how to integrate all the software into a car, which is one of the, it's almost like a space shuttle because there's so many different systems that all have to be integrated together. Not only that, but each system has to be validated so that they're safe so that they actually work. Imagine, imagine how difficult it is just to simply have you have a steering wheel that is drive by wire. And that's just a standard technology that we are going to control the throttle via a wire. We're gonna throw the control, the steering via a wire, all the different certifications and safety tests that have to be done just to communicate over a wire to like here is how we're turning. And here's how the, how the wheels could go. Imagine how much more difficult it's going to be for someone who is not like Tesla, who is not playing fast and loose with regulations to actually put that stuff on the street,

Leo Laporte (00:46:12):
You gotta be crazy to make this stuff work. The other thing ma says is that there's a lack of, without Steve jobs to power it through, there's kind of a lack of leadership. He says, Tim cook, isn't, you know, he's kind of hands off. And plus he says, some apple executives are not rooting for project Titan. Not notably hair force one, Craig Feder Rigi has been particularly skeptical of the program over the years, according to two people who have heard him speak privately about it. And within other parts of apple, Titan has become the subject of ridicule because of its chronic leadership turnover and changes in strategy that have previously prompted layoffs. Some managers have proactively warned employees to stay away from the project, according to multiple former apple employees. Yeah. Now you've got Kevin Lynch in there now who is a high level executive leading it.

Jason Snell (00:47:09):
Right. And you do NA I mean, I think that this speaks to the lack of leadership that you need, somebody who really is a true believer and an owner of it who is going to build a team that really believes in the product. And that's a problem when you don't know what the product is true. Kevin Lynch, I believe got the apple watch across the finish line, but I do wonder, you know, again, what is the finish line and is it let's take the tech we've built here and see what of it is turn turnable into a product. And is that new CarPlay and better partnerships with car makers? I will say the one thing I admire about the full self-driving or bust mentality is there's an argument to be made that if that, if you could crack that you are gonna be really successful and that if your apple, maybe that's the only way that you should ever even consider being part of the car industry is if you can revolutionize it, but you're setting this like failure state, essentially, which is we're shooting for the impossible, well, guess what? It's impossible or probably almost impossible. And, and then you Le I think that's, what's led them to now, which is they're in a situation where they're taking stock and saying, okay, we spent 10 years working on this stuff. What do we got <laugh>

Andy Ihnatko (00:48:22):

Leo Laporte (00:48:23):
According to ma we' four Kings running the project, Steve Eski, Benjamin Lyon, John Wright, and DJ Novin Noni who all reported to Dan Rio before Rio handed off to Kevin Lynch. Reio although technically in charge, according to this article remained hands off the defacto leader. Eski an apple vice president who had started his career as a mechanical engineer at Ford. So he was a car guy, but he left earlier this year. So this is not, this doesn't bode well for any project at any company

Andy Ihnatko (00:49:02):
You, you got, you gotta, you gotta give you gotta give a team, a target, like apple, apple designed the iPhone and the iPad, because they were designing an iPad that they decided that in the meantime, let's design an iPhone, not because let you know, we're really interested in this multitouch technology, what would an operating? So I wonder what an operating system based on multitouch would be like, it's like, okay, that's something that you could research for 10 to 20 years. Once you start to, that's the difference between research science and engineering engineering is all about great. Let's make a device that is exactly this big, that can cost no more than this. So that's is gonna have battery battery requirements of exactly these limitations. And let's try to release it in the next two years. That's how you actually ship something. Well,

Alex Lindsay (00:49:43):
And, and I think that, I think the one thing that apple has on its favor and to its detriment is that it doesn't need the car. It's making a lot of money. Exactly. So, you know, so there's a, there's not a, we're gonna go under if we don't figure this out and there's also, they can keep on experimenting and pushing for the big thing because they can afford to keep dumping money into it.

Leo Laporte (00:49:59):
Yeah. The the kind of the shocking revelation of this article is that the car almost ran over a jogger. In the first quarter of the year, one of Apple's test vehicles driving around 15 miles an hour, almost hit a jogger, was crossing the street at an unmarked crosswalk Apple's self-driving software, by the way, Tesla had similar problems. I

Jason Snell (00:50:24):
Should point out and Waymo.

Leo Laporte (00:50:25):
Yeah. First identified the jogger as a stationary object before recategorized it as a stationary person. And then finally, as a moving pedestrian, now that was all within a second, but rather than stopped the car just steered around him, that this scared the backup driver, there was a human inside who slammed on the brakes. The car stopped within a few feet of the pedestrian. Apple later determined the car. Would've almost certainly hit the dogger jogger if the backup driver hadn't acted at which point, apple grounded its fleet to in investigate the joer incident. It did resume driving within a few days after fixing the identification problem and adding that walk crosswalk to its map space. But that just shows you how, I mean, that's onesy, twosy, how many crosswalks are there in the in the country, in the world? That's, that's scary when that happens.

Jason Snell (00:51:17):
Andy made a really good point about Apple's strength being in producing real products and not doing these kind of, I, I said earlier that Andy and I went back to the nineties, nineties, apple was really weird. And one of the things they did is a lot of pie in the sky R and D text Dem tech demo without a purpose and without a product. And when Steve jobs came back, he basically said we can't afford to do that, that we need to make real products and they've been successful doing that. I think what you're seeing with project Titan and, and Waymo, and a bunch of other things that are other bets, like what Google does is you've got companies with so much money that they're willing to just, you know, play the lottery because they'll say, look, what, if we can invent the self-driving car, we will win. Right. And if we don't, what do we lose some money? We got lots of that. It's fine. And so,

Leo Laporte (00:52:03):
Especially if the employees are saying, we gotta do this,

Jason Snell (00:52:06):
We're gotta do this. So is Proti a money pit. That's not a real product and may not amount to anything. Yeah. Kind of, kind of as intended.

Leo Laporte (00:52:13):
Yeah. What, although it does have an M designation, which apparently means,

Jason Snell (00:52:18):

Leo Laporte (00:52:18):
There's a product there. It's not a blue sky. They think there might be a product there. Yeah, sure, sure. Johnny, I has weighed in on the design just last bit from this article and one, I'm sorry, go ahead. Working on the physical car design continues according to Wayne ma the information Johnny who now works for apple on a contract basis has told the Titan team, this is so Johnny lean into the weirdness of the vehicle's design. And don't try to hide the sensors, set a person with direct knowledge of the discussion. The current design features four seats that face inward a living room. So passengers can talk to one another and a curve ceiling similar to the roof of a Volkswagen beetle. So it's a little, a little orb with a living room inside, no steering wheel, probably right. No brake pedal. Nope. Designers are experimenting with a trunk compartment that rises giving owners easier access to the storage space, and then automatically lowers apple designers have discussed large screens that rise from behind the seats and lower when they aren't in use.

Leo Laporte (00:53:14):
They've also discussed allowing passengers to lie flat and sleep in the vehicle. <Laugh> those safety considerations could get in the way apple hopes. This is actually what's most interesting to me. They are trying to get exemptions from the, from NITSA the national highway traffic safety administration to remove the stealing steering wheel and brakes from the car. And they actually hired NSA's chief council to help negotiate this good luck. And employees are now discussing how to disguise a new version of the self-driving test vehicle that most more closely resembles the final version of the car apple wants to produce and could hit the road as early as next year. So they're still doing it. It's still working. It

Andy Ihnatko (00:53:52):
Is, it is an interesting aspect. The part of the believe me, part of the research into this is simply into sociology. Where should you have, should you have a self-driving car be identifiable to other drivers as a self-driving car? Meaning that, look, this, this vehicle may not operate the, if you've trained yourself for 20 years on predicting the unpredictability of how human beings drive cars, this is not that thing. Or on the other hand, should you make it as, as normal as possible? Because we are already seeing that if someone in, in test markets where self-driving vehicles are already on the road, if other drivers know that this is a robotic vehicle, that they're gonna be more of a jerk to this car because they figure out that they can, that maybe the software's a little bit more conservative. Also, they know that they're not gonna be sued by a human driver of all this, all these sort of things.

Andy Ihnatko (00:54:38):
So there, there, there's just so much research that has to go into this. And maybe that it's, this is why this is, these are always interesting research projects, and they will always be really valuable to a company like apple because researchers a company like apple needs researchers, and sometimes they really just want to work the problem as opposed to yeah, we know that we, we hired you off of this really, really incredible AI project that you got working on in Stanford. We really just want you to improve the accuracy of search results in, in, in, in apple photos. Like, no, that's not why I left academia.

Leo Laporte (00:55:10):
All right. I wanna take a little break. And then I wanna talk about lockdown mode, cuz this is one of the features of iOS 16. Beginning a lot of attention is kind of interesting. Apple just put out a press release saying actually a week ago, apple expands industry, leading commitment to protect users from highly targeted mercenary spyware. Wow. If you are potentially being targeted by mercenary spyware, <laugh> we've got an answer for you. It's so nice to have Jason Nell with us. Six colors dot com, right? That's it. And, and in comparable podcast and you got how many podcasts total?

Jason Snell (00:55:48):
I can't count that high. Yeah. I

Leo Laporte (00:55:49):
Didn't think so. <Laugh>

Jason Snell (00:55:50):

Leo Laporte (00:55:50):
Fingers and toes. That's it? What are you gonna

Jason Snell (00:55:52):
Do? It's a lot. There's, it's a lot. There's

Leo Laporte (00:55:54):
A lot. Where's the best place to go to find out what podcasts you're doing.

Jason Snell (00:55:58):
Six, I post a lot of, but you can also go to the incomparable dot com and Those that's mostly where I am. Yeah. I need to update my current podcast

Leo Laporte (00:56:07):
List. You know what I'm gonna do just for you. We have on the, Twitter' such a deal just for you. We have a page, a bio page and I am gonna make sure that that bio page lists every gosh darn podcast,

Jason Snell (00:56:19):

Leo Laporte (00:56:19):
Do it in your <laugh> in your in your quiver. If that's where you keep your podcast.

Jason Snell (00:56:26):
That's a lot. I, I, I mean, I could try, I could, I could list them here, but there's not enough time.

Leo Laporte (00:56:29):
Not enough time.

Andy Ihnatko (00:56:30):
Jason could, could, could you set up an API so that make sure that that page should simply ping your server to ask what is the current list? What current names? I think

Jason Snell (00:56:38):
It'll be a, it'll be a J API. Get

Leo Laporte (00:56:42):
It. Did they name it after you really? It's very

Jason Snell (00:56:43):
Funny. No, I think it was good. Thank thank you, Alex. Best response to a joke ever is. That's very

Leo Laporte (00:56:49):
Fun. That's

Alex Lindsay (00:56:50):
Amusing. That was very funny. Highly

Leo Laporte (00:56:51):
Amusing. It's a very SP you gotta

Alex Lindsay (00:56:53):
Get the gravelly SP

Leo Laporte (00:56:56):
<Laugh> and you not go also here. GBH in Boston. I noticed they've dropped the w in much of their communications.

Andy Ihnatko (00:57:03):
Yeah. I don't know why officially officially the the media organization, I think is GBH. Even though of course the FCC thinks of it as w

Leo Laporte (00:57:11):
GBH, does that stand for

Andy Ihnatko (00:57:12):
Knowledging? Yes. great

Leo Laporte (00:57:14):
Big show. No, they,

Andy Ihnatko (00:57:17):
In, in the, in the Boston area, there's this huge. We don't have a mountain in the Boston area. We have this big hill called blue hill and they used to put the transmission powers for all hill radio stuff, blue. So this fit for w great blue Hills.

Leo Laporte (00:57:28):
Oh, that's blue hill. See, you learn something on this show. Don't you also something completely useless, but, but you've learned something. And that's what really, that,

Andy Ihnatko (00:57:37):
That, that really is my power position in this, in this Franklin

Leo Laporte (00:57:40):
Poor people. <Laugh> they've dropped the w w no more. In fact, when I used to work back Eastern radio, it was the Banin of every radio DJ's existence to say w w all the time that's one letter, three syllables makes no sense. Also, Alex Lindsay. Oh nine, oh, do media and office Will you do a deconstruction of the NASA stream with Telestra and all that? I'll

Alex Lindsay (00:58:10):
Take a look at it. Oh, I, I haven't, I haven't seen it cuz we were on, on air and then I've been in meetings. It's kind,

Leo Laporte (00:58:15):
It was kind of a wreck.

Alex Lindsay (00:58:16):
I'll take a look at it. Yeah, absolutely.

Leo Laporte (00:58:17):
A crash. But since office hours today was about focus on audio. I think you might, might.

Alex Lindsay (00:58:22):
Yeah, exactly. We'll take a look at it.

Leo Laporte (00:58:23):
You might not take a dang look. Why is he pointing at me?

Alex Lindsay (00:58:27):
He's excited about you. Me

Leo Laporte (00:58:30):
He's you. Office hours needs you. Our show today brought to you by our crowd. This is a crowd I wanna be a part of as rising interest rates, inflation and global complexity throw the stock market into turmoil. Lot of investors, the savvy ones are turning to at least looking for alternative ways to grow their money. And you know what, if you have put away you know, the appropriate amount of savings for emergencies, for retirement and all that stuff, I think it is NEC it is necessary to kind of broaden your scope. Our crowd makes it easy for you to diversify your investments into a variety of expertly, vetted high growth, private companies, across stages, geographies, and even industries, biotech, cybersecurity, renewable energy. These are the kinds of investments that really, it used to be reserved to the elite institutional investors. No one even would know about them because they haven't yet gone public.

Leo Laporte (00:59:29):
So no, you know, they're, they're private, they're small, but of course that's where the greatest growth potential lies every month. Our crowd vets, hundreds of startups across the globe and then brings them to their members, a select few identified for outsized growth potential. Of course you don't have to invest in any of these. And in fact, it's free to join our crowd, but it's a great way to find out about these investments ahead of time. Our crowd backs these investments, they commit their own capital. They're not just throwing stuff at you, they're in, and they leverage their relationships with multinationals and global investment leaders to help drive their portfolio companies growth. They're they're in fact venture capitalists. So they're in, they even have not only some portfolio companies that you can invest in, but they have some funds you can invest in as well.

Leo Laporte (01:00:18):
Now, of course, there's a catch, here's the catch. You have to be an accredited investor and that's gonna vary depending on what country you're in, in the us. It has, there are income requirements and so forth. But if you are an accredited investor, you can discover investment opportunities. Well beyond the stock market get in on the stuff that only the big shots have been able to get into up to now, single company deals you can get in as little as $10,000, the funds started $50,000, but a minimum of 10,000 is required to invest. And again, you have to be an accredited investor. Those terms may vary depending on where you invest. So what you need to do is go to our break. First thing they'll ask you is what country you're investing from. And then they'll tell you what the requirements are. If you meet those requirements, it's free to join the fastest growing venture capital investment community in the world. Just to find out what's happening is fascinating. Our break a great way to get in these private market investments before everybody else does our, and that's the best time, right? Our break. Thank you, our crowd for your support. So it's interesting. This is is this Apple's lockdown, is this Apple's response to Pegasus the NSO group's zero click software that was used by nation states to target dissidents journalists, bad guys,

Jason Snell (01:01:44):
That's it? Yeah. It feels like it. Yeah. They got tired of the perception that I, the iPhone was insecure fundamentally because of these very specific tactics taken mostly by state actors who are paying NSO group. And so they decided they would just create a mode that turns off a bunch of stuff in iOS in order to reduce the attack surfaces. So your phone will be kind of crappy <laugh>, but this stuff won't work anymore because you know, that's the challenge, right? Is like, I don't want to break everybody's iPhone. Right? Most people are not going to be like, like this, this lockdown feature feels like very much, you know, if you are in the target audience, right, for this group, you are a journalist or a dissident or

Leo Laporte (01:02:29):
A politician

Jason Snell (01:02:29):
Or a politician. You are somebody who a, probably a state actor would pay lots of money to get onto your phone. And that's the, that's the point here? I think it's also a funny move that apple basically said, we'll donate all the proceeds of any lawsuits we have against NSO to the, the, the foundation that's going to research more security,

Leo Laporte (01:02:50):
A $10 million cyber security grant, not to mention a $2 million bug bounty bug for anybody who can break lockdown. Google did this couple of years ago, they did the advanced protection program. You'd have to have two Titan keys. And it was really, it was in response to the break in of the democratic national committee's email accounts. So they Google really said, this is for politicians, public figures who might be targeted. Yeah, this goes a lot. This goes a lot farther. Or it's diff maybe not goes a lot farther, but is different. Apple already has two factor.

Andy Ihnatko (01:03:26):
As, as, as Jason said, it basically closes off tax services. It's different between having a normal house and saying, okay, these windows let in light and they're pretty, but they're a place where burglar get in. So we're gonna board them up. We, we're gonna take, we're gonna take off the doorbell. We're gonna all these things that make it less convenient, make things, things like no I'm

Leo Laporte (01:03:44):
Absorb bell. I love it.

Andy Ihnatko (01:03:45):
Yeah, no, just this is, this is exactly the sort of things we're talking about, where things, things like it's not gonna accept any messages from anybody that you haven't interacted with before, because there are no open message exploits where just, just sending a malformed message to to iMessage will cause the cause and effect infection. Things like active scripts on active code on on the, in the browser are being are turned off. If you, if a phone is locked, plugging it into a data cable, we'll do nothing. And what's really,

Leo Laporte (01:04:18):
It's, that's kind great. Google has Google charged. You could still charge, but the data is shut off. Yeah, no snow accessories can be used. Yep. But you could charge it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so that, you know, what that would be worth turning on before you charge at the airport or at a bar, just turn on lockdown mode.

Alex Lindsay (01:04:34):
Well, and, and I think that the, the pushback will probably come from the intelligence communities because, you know, while NSO had

Leo Laporte (01:04:40):
Something so much,

Alex Lindsay (01:04:40):
Do they, small companies were small countries were able to buy it from NSO, but we should assume that the larger countries already had it, you know? And so they, so this is 

Leo Laporte (01:04:47):
But the NSA, for instance, they're not gonna step up and say, Hey, please don't turn on lockdown. Well, we can't spy on

Alex Lindsay (01:04:52):
You. <Laugh> well, and, and the problem is, is it would, it would show, it would show what they were doing. Right. You know? And so I think that that would be very difficult, but I, we just have to watch the, the pushback will be, you know, what about terrorists? And what about drug dealers? And what about, you know, like that's gonna be the, the, oh yeah. Apple you're giving

Leo Laporte (01:05:07):
The tool, consider the children. Yeah.

Jason Snell (01:05:09):
So the politics is a huge part of this story. And I think one of the reasons apple has made such a big deal outta theso group is because it's framing the story as being there's the shady profit making company that is acting as a mercenary selling to shady countries and shady quasi government groups, the way to break into the phones of heroic dissidents and journalists. Right. That is a way better way to do this.

Leo Laporte (01:05:37):
That's the opening paragraph

Jason Snell (01:05:38):
Actually, than to say also this is gonna stop the FBI FBI from yeah, exactly. Right. Like, so part of this is the framing of it that apple wants to frame it in this very particular way. And, and it, it, honestly, it does kind of make it hard if you're an American government official. Let's, let's say to say, well, actually we're against this. So

Leo Laporte (01:06:01):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna disagree because apple still has the loophole that law enforcement loves, which is you can serve a search warrant to apple for iCloud data, of course, and everything backed up to, and this does not turn that off. It

Jason Snell (01:06:14):
Doesn't turn off iCloud back. So it's

Leo Laporte (01:06:16):
Hilarious. Everything that's backed up to iCloud is available to law enforcement and apple is always gonna keep that. I, I don't think fact actually think you've Alex said that apple will some, at some point, turn that off. I think they leave that on cuz that's you can safety valve, right?

Alex Lindsay (01:06:30):
You, you can turn it off from you, turn it off. That's the point of

Jason Snell (01:06:32):
These features are, are features that you otherwise couldn't control this.

Leo Laporte (01:06:36):
Well, as an example with the San Bernard Bernardino shooter, Apple's first statement to the FBI is, well, just bring the phone back to his house. It'll back up to iCloud. We'll give you everything. Yeah. And then they said, oh, the FBI blew it cuz they didn't do that. They tried to unlock the phone first

Alex Lindsay (01:06:50):
And well, and, and, and again, they're not, they're not blind, you know, like there's a lot of things that they still know about your phone. They know where your phone is. They know who you talk to, who you were standing next to. Who are you? You know, if you have two phones, they know both of those phones probably belong to you. And so, so there's a lot of things that, and they will have

Leo Laporte (01:07:03):
That over if given a full subpoena. Yes.

Alex Lindsay (01:07:05):
I think they don't, they don't need apple for that.

Leo Laporte (01:07:08):
Oh, they don't need you're. Right.

Alex Lindsay (01:07:09):
Like so, so the cell companies will tell them all those things. And so, so I think that they, it's not like they're going blind, but you know, I think I still think that this is part of the, kind of at an angle, the way the intelligence community's trying to push this is I think there's a lot of push for breaking up the apple store and, and, you know, opening that up because, you know, if it keeps on closing down like this, it gets really, really hard for them to get into and they really want other, you know, less closed down systems available. So I think there's a whisper from industry, but there's also whisper from, from intelligence into our, our Congress people's ear of like, Hey, we really need to crack this up. So it can't be as, as tied down.

Leo Laporte (01:07:47):
So here's what happens with messages message attachment types, other than images are blocked. So you, and by the way, that's one of the ways NSO group gets in is with a, with a text message. This actually almost admits that apple has problems with its meta data rendering tool, which is by the way, Microsoft has the same problems everybody does. That's kind of a notoriously difficult thing to secure.

Jason Snell (01:08:12):
Right? It's literally your device is saying, I it's interpreter. I accept arbitrary data. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:08:17):
Just send it to me and I'll tell I'll interpret it. That's

Jason Snell (01:08:18):
It's easier said than done.

Leo Laporte (01:08:20):
Yeah. Some features and this is another good one. Like link previews are disabled. So you won't see a preview popping up. That's that to me is not so onerous. I'd turn that on. When it comes to web browsing, they're following in the footsteps of Google. Google did a, some study about six months ago that discovered that most of the flaws in browsers came from just in time, JavaScript, compilation JIT. So jits are disabled unless the user excludes a trusted site from lockdown mode. So I don't know how much that's gonna break the internet. Google does offer or has talked about turning off jits in Chrome, which also by the way, weirdly speeds up the browsing considerably <laugh>. So I'm not sure, you know, if this is a feature that it might be something you do wanna turn on. I suspect it is.

Leo Laporte (01:09:08):
We've talked about this on security now as for apple services, incoming invitations and service requests, including FaceTime calls are blocked, but only if you have not previously sent a request to the initiator. So for somebody, you know, somebody you've talked to before, not blocked, but strangers, stranger danger, we're gonna block 'em again. I think everybody should turn this on so far wired connections, as you mentioned, Jason, with a computer accessory or blocked when the iPhone is locked. So that's important because people charge, they plug in their, you know, phone to systems that they just don't know about. And, and

Alex Lindsay (01:09:49):
Again, that's not bad.

Leo Laporte (01:09:50):
That's a good thing.

Andy Ihnatko (01:09:51):
Also significant significantly. That's the tools that law enforcement uses when they

Leo Laporte (01:09:56):

Andy Ihnatko (01:09:57):
Yeah, exactly. When they just grab your phone and call your

Leo Laporte (01:10:00):
That's what this

Andy Ihnatko (01:10:01):
Can I, can I, can I quickly, can I quickly search your car permission?

Leo Laporte (01:10:03):
This is anti celebrate. That's what that is. So

Alex Lindsay (01:10:07):
If bonus, if you see any way to get in. Yeah. I mean, this is like a fail one, fail swoo attempt to first they're saying there's a big bonus if you figure out how to get in, but this is a big attempt to close off all the, all the doors that were opened.

Leo Laporte (01:10:19):
It also turns off profiles. That's this is the only one that I actually use profiles cuz I use next DNS and I put a profile on my iPhone that allows it to become the DNS provider. It configuration profiles cannot be installed and lit. I mean that is, you know, that's a big fat hole. If you could, if you, as a bad guy, get a profile installed on the phone, the device cannot enroll into MDM while lockdown mode has turned on MDM, which we were just talking about with the collide ad. And I know they're one of your sponsors too. Yeah, sure. MDM is how it sometimes will lock down devices, but it's also remember one of the parental you know, lockdown apps got busted cuz they were using NDM inappropriately. It's designed for enterprise. They were using it to, to control what kids could do on the phone. There's

Jason Snell (01:11:08):
A lot of rules of like, you can't do that on an iPhone that are actually have a little footnote that says, except if it's in a organization. Right. and then you turn on MDM and you can distribute apps. Right? And so you can create sort of like a, a piracy ring where you distribute apps. There's so many different things you can do because it's like, it's literally a place where Apple's locked it down for regular users and then said for corporate users, oh no, it's okay. You can do this. And then that gets exploited. And you end up with these scenarios where people are installing profiles, that they don't know what they do in order to get this app that they want to use. Yeah. Or get this feature they want to use. And, and it's interesting though, that it says profiles can't be installed, which I, I find that fascinating, cuz I think it may suggest that you can have a profile on your phone, but when you turn on lockdown mode, it's not going to install new ones, new profiles.

Leo Laporte (01:11:55):
So I could have my next DNS profile, but it would lock. Oh, that's interesting.

Jason Snell (01:11:58):
Might be, might be because, because you know, they they've made it easy again, it's one of those things where apples made it easier to install a profile, which is great as a user cuz you're like, oh it just, you tap download. And it says, okay, it's over in your settings. But that also makes it dangerous. Yeah. Cause it's so easy. So lockdown mode would turn that

Leo Laporte (01:12:14):
Off. Would you turn on, turn on lockdown mode?

Jason Snell (01:12:17):
Jason, I wouldn't.

Leo Laporte (01:12:19):
I might, I might. You have it. You could.

Jason Snell (01:12:22):
I, I could, but by

Leo Laporte (01:12:23):
The way, it's not just iPhones. I pad and Mac

Jason Snell (01:12:26):
And Mac. It just makes your, it's just gonna make it inconvenient though. That's cause you

Leo Laporte (01:12:30):
Don't wanna do any of these

Jason Snell (01:12:31):
Things. I would rather not lose all those features if I could avoid it. But if I felt, but I'll tell you if a man in a suit came to my door and said, there's a country that is on the other side of the planet that is mad at you locked down. I would turn on lockdown out immediately.

Leo Laporte (01:12:47):
Yeah. Andy,

Andy Ihnatko (01:12:48):
Would you use it that, that I would turn it on and then as soon as it becomes inconvenient, turn it right off. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:12:53):
Me too. That's what I'll do,

Andy Ihnatko (01:12:55):
But that's my, but the, but the great, the great thing about it is that, I mean for there have been a lot of people who are in that sort of situation where, Hey, your name has appeared on a list of people who have been targeted, whose devices have been targeted by NSO spyware. And then, oh my God, what do I do? Like don't know, but just to let you know now, the, now the answer is turn on this. Whereas the, the other, the the old device used to be maybe stop using your phone entirely or get a, buy a special, super hardened phone. That is absolutely just like a flip phone from, from two, from 1999 or turn this thing on, it will give you enough protection that you could at least continue to, to, to use apps like signal and still get still contact the the dissidents that you are writing about that people want to kill you for, for writing about.

Leo Laporte (01:13:40):
Would you turn it on? Alex,

Alex Lindsay (01:13:43):
There are times when I've done jobs where I would definitely turn it on because I was probably at risk.

Leo Laporte (01:13:47):
When you go, when you go in the white house, do they do they take your phone and put it in a bag?

Alex Lindsay (01:13:53):
Nope. Not in the white house. There's other government building place. They do take your take care

Andy Ihnatko (01:13:57):
Under the Pentagon.

Alex Lindsay (01:13:58):
They often do, you know, but, but the but they, but they not in the white house, the, the white house mostly is if you wanna plug into the network, they give you, they'll like, I always tell everyone just when you plug that ethernet in, just know that a lot of things are gonna look at your computer. So the so so anyway,

Leo Laporte (01:14:12):
That sense I would hope so.

Alex Lindsay (01:14:13):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, no, absolutely. So, but I, I don't see again, there are times when I was doing things that I, you know that, you know, for how

Leo Laporte (01:14:23):
Alex gets when he is trying to circum low. Cute. What?

Alex Lindsay (01:14:26):
So, but, but, but I, but I, there are times when I would not, I would've turned it on. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:14:30):
I asked Amy Webb this cuz she does a lot of work with the Pentagon. She says, yeah. When you go on a skiff, you, you give him your phone. Yeah. She says, it always makes me nervous because who knows what's going on with that phone while it's in the bag?

Jason Snell (01:14:42):
Well, I would even say if you do a lot of work with the Pentagon, you may wanna turn

Leo Laporte (01:14:47):
Out yes.

Alex Lindsay (01:14:48):
Lockdown. Yes. Well, and, and a lot of times you just, if you know, you're going into a building, that's gonna take your phone. You don't bring it with you. <Laugh>, it's just, it's a lot safer to, to, to do that.

Leo Laporte (01:14:56):
Does this sell iPhones? Is this enough? So that people who are looking for sec, there were, you know, there's like the black phone, there are, there are these phones and every time somebody Cru comes up with one of these super secure phones, the security, you know, community goes, yeah. Right. Except for that thing one, you know, or you could use this or none of this stuff is really secure. Maybe this is gonna make a market for the iPhone. I've I remember talking to Phil Zimerman. I think it was who does, who created PGP? He said, I would never take an Android phone at, to black hat for instance, or

Alex Lindsay (01:15:28):
Desktop. Well, and, and I think that, I think that it is serving a relatively small group of people, like in the grand scheme of how many iPhones apple does. I don't think it's gonna really affect. Maybe there'll be enough paranoid people that will buy another half a million phones, but, but it's really serving like five or 10,000 people that are really targets of state actors, maybe a little bit more now that Russia and China are doing what they're doing. So, but, but it's not, you know, you, the phone is pretty secure on its own. Yeah. And so this is like

Leo Laporte (01:15:53):
Maybe the next president won't get a highly modified windows, CE phone or a Blackberry, but get an iPhone locked down.

Jason Snell (01:16:01):
So why, why apple does this? Cause Alex is right. You know, the, the potential market here is incredibly smalls. Yeah. why does apple do something like this? And the answer is cuz it's bad publicity for apple to have a story about a dissident. Yes. In a far off country who is kidnapped and thrown in jail or executed by a oppressive regime point because they got hacked using their iPhone. Right. It's like, that is a story. Apple doesn't want to exist. And so it's, that's really what's going on here is I do think, yes, of course less cynically, apple doesn't want their products. They hate that the NSO group is hacking their products. They hate it and they don't want any company, any government to do that. But the other part of it is that they don't want the perception that the apple platforms are unsafe because privacy and security are one of their selling points. And that's really

Leo Laporte (01:16:50):
Story they're, they're doing everything they can to block zero click exploits like the Pegasus at point. But you really, and you, you can't really put out a press release about that. That's just your ongoing security research. So this is nice cuz it's a nice press release that you could put out. I, I do. I, I, I do think that the

Andy Ihnatko (01:17:08):
Primary driver is simply that they 

Leo Laporte (01:17:13):

Andy Ihnatko (01:17:14):
And apple, they both take an enormous amount of pride in security that this is something that, that has to be done just on principle just to keep the technology moving forward. And this is part of their responsibility as the people who are creating the technology that other people use. And I, I really believe that the, the match that lit the fuse was a team inside of apple saying, look we don't, we don't, we've been looking at ways to lock out all this sort of stuff. A good intermediary step would be, what if we just give people a Mo that they could use and then it rolled off from there. I don't, I don't think it was necessarily response to bad PR. Although that certainly was was part of it. But I do think this is mostly a principle response that look the, the quest, the question that a lot of us should be asking technology companies is you didn't even try to do the very least that you could do. We, we can't expect you to solve the entire problem, but why didn't you do at least the least that you could do this is better than the least that they could do. And I'm glad that apple did it.

Jason Snell (01:18:08):
Yeah. It's, I mean, it's beneficial in so many different ways cuz it lets them take pride in their in their product being more secure. It means that they're not going to have stories out there about people's iPhones betraying them. Sure. It, it is it allows them to attack the, and put out a reward, right. For, for people who can try to break this thing. Like it it's a winner on all fronts, except for what Alex mentioned earlier, which is it's a winner on all fronts, unless the narrative gets changed to be apple is helping bad guys with this

Leo Laporte (01:18:39):
Show of hands, anybody order a MacBook air M two last Friday, you did what color?

Jason Snell (01:18:46):

Leo Laporte (01:18:46):
Midnight. It's the only color Alex. Andy.

Andy Ihnatko (01:18:50):
Nope. Nope. Not yet. As tempted as tempted as I was by the range of colors about gray, darker gray and an even darker version of gray. So

Jason Snell (01:18:57):
Yeah, silver silver,

Leo Laporte (01:18:59):
Gray, gray, gray, and bla

Jason Snell (01:19:01):
Gray, silver slightly off yellowy, silver and dark gray,

Leo Laporte (01:19:08):
But midnight blue is gonna be nice.

Jason Snell (01:19:09):
Yeah, it is bring in

Leo Laporte (01:19:10):
This blue, that one you have to come in when you get it. Sure. Absolutely. What is your ship date?

Jason Snell (01:19:15):
Early August, early August. They, it seems like they built because they're having supply chain issues. It looks like they built a lot of the base models. So if you ordered the, the pure base model, you might have gotten them

Leo Laporte (01:19:25):
This week, Friday.

Jason Snell (01:19:26):
Yeah. But but then it

Leo Laporte (01:19:27):
Flipped because I, so I got up at 5:00 AM on Friday, cause I'm an idiot. And and immediately ordered the top of the line, you know, max it out two terabytes, 24 gigabytes, 10 core GPU or whatever. And it said August 9th and which of course is not this Friday. Some people will get it Friday, but now if you order the base model, it's later and it's August 9th for the build to order

Jason Snell (01:19:55):
So well that's because they've run out of the

Leo Laporte (01:19:57):
Baseball, they've run out the base model

Jason Snell (01:19:58):
That they built in advance. Right. So they

Leo Laporte (01:20:00):
Didn't have a lot of

Jason Snell (01:20:00):
Them. Yeah. But it sounds like immediately if you ordered anything, but the bill to order you were already gonna be late July or early August. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a, I mean, by the way

Leo Laporte (01:20:07):
Story, not push the buy button, I'm just, I played with it.

Jason Snell (01:20:10):
Yeah. I mean, it's fun. It's fun to, I was so put things in your cart, put in the bag,

Leo Laporte (01:20:13):
See it's still in the bag.

Jason Snell (01:20:15):
Yeah. I mean,

Leo Laporte (01:20:16):
It's still, it's still in the bag there. <Laugh> just waiting, waiting for me to come along and check out, but I ain't going do it also chose midnight blue. You might

Jason Snell (01:20:25):
Not. Yeah. That's, it's, it's

Leo Laporte (01:20:26):
The best just case. You're curious, max it out 2,500 bucks I'm for, for an air. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking

Jason Snell (01:20:36):
Though two terabytes

Leo Laporte (01:20:38):
After rain and we talked about this last week, Renee, I think debunked it after seeing the overheating problems with the MacBook pro 13, M two I want kind of wanna wait till some people get the M two MacBook air and find out like Jason find out what he thinks <laugh>.

Jason Snell (01:20:53):
Yeah. I mean, that, that is the, the question is there's no cooling in this at all. Although it, it was engineered, you know, this is a new enclosure, so they built it knowing what chip was gonna go in it. And so they must know what the thermal profile is here. I think the truth is that if you're gonna press it like that story last week, if you're gonna press it to that level, you probably shouldn't be buying a MacBook air

Leo Laporte (01:21:12):
Or a MacBook pro or

Jason Snell (01:21:13):
That 13 inch MacBook pro, which should probably not be called for

Leo Laporte (01:21:16):
Pro wait for a studio or something. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I yeah, as tempted as I am, it, it makes sense this chip would be hotter. It's got more transistors. It's bigger. Yeah. It's about 20% faster. So maybe 20% hotter. So it makes sense. But again, they, the pro did not have a redesign chassis, right. So it's the, it's a hotter chip with the same cooling capabilities as the M one, presumably the MacBook air being fully redesigned

Jason Snell (01:21:47):
Also let's be clear. I mean, the only way that, that he, I know Renee talked about this, but the only way that, that overheating that throtling not only did the throttling still, it was still faster than the M one, but you have to max up the CPU and then max out the GPUs, right. With a video render, almost nobody will ever be in that situation. <Laugh> and, and yeah, all of my M one experiences have been, can I export 4k video and do a bunch of other things and it gets a little warm and that's about it. So I would anticipate it'll be kind of like that for the air, but you're right. You know, that's why, why we have product reviewers yeah. Is to try this stuff out and set

Leo Laporte (01:22:22):
Geek bench some, some geek bench benchmarks have started to emerge for the Mac 14 two. Yeah. There's a number

Jason Snell (01:22:34):

Leo Laporte (01:22:35):
I don't know what it means

Jason Snell (01:22:36):
There it's the lesson we've learned. I mean, Andy knows this too. It's the lesson we've learned about the apple Silicon is that the chip is the chip is the chip is the chip. They could put it in a different enclosure. It's the chip three, an M one, 3.5 is an M one, an M two is an M two, an M one pro is an M one pro like they, they don't really vary. All those M ones are exactly the same computer in a different rapper. And I would be shocked if the M two S aren't the same. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:23:02):
Yeah. That's a, we're gonna have to we're I'm still,

Andy Ihnatko (01:23:04):
We're, we're just entering the range in which apple is gonna be expected to and can differentiate one model from the other. I mean I, along with everybody else is wondering, okay, if this is what you can, if this is the capacity, you can get inside a MacBook air, largely because the thermals are so much better in this new generation of chips was gonna define a MacBook pronoun. Is it going to be connectivity? Is it going to be size? Is it gonna be screen? Is it gonna be battery? Because honestly, it's, it's hard to, if, if you really wanna dump a lot of money into a supremely powerful device that can do nearly everything, you would want a mobile computer to do. Macbook air is really there for at least 80% of the people out there. So I'm hoping there's a revolution coming for the MacBook pro.

Leo Laporte (01:23:47):
Yeah. I mean, this is fun. According to these geek bench results, the M two MacBook air outperforms, the base model Mac pro tower, which costs $5,000 more <laugh> yeah, that's got the Zion w in it, but you know that how, what, that's five, three years old, four years old.

Jason Snell (01:24:06):
Well, and let's not forget to the classic story here is nobody, almost nobody is upgrading from the M one to the M two, right? They're going from Intel. They're gonna get the enormous leap in performance and battery life that you go from Intel to M one and then a 15% bonus above that for the for the M two. So that's, that's the true story here, right? More than anything else is that these are people coming from late generation Intel laptops. My wife is using a 2018 MacBook air Intel, and it's a, you know, it it's, I used it the other day and it's incredibly slow and it's miserable to use. So I'm really looking forward to getting her on apple, Silicon two, cuz it's gonna be a huge leap for her, even if she just goes to the M one. And then she goes to the M two, another 10% on top of that.

Leo Laporte (01:24:54):
How could you let your wife still be on Intel?

Jason Snell (01:24:57):
I was waiting for this new MacBook air to come out

Leo Laporte (01:25:00):
Honestly. Oh, okay. Then. So she's getting the midnight blue.

Jason Snell (01:25:02):
No, she's gonna get my M one MacBook air and I'm gonna take the, you know what?

Leo Laporte (01:25:05):
I do the same thing to

Jason Snell (01:25:06):
My wife. Yeah. She's gonna get a little hand me down

Leo Laporte (01:25:08):
And that's when I say, oh, you know, the M one is the M one is the

Jason Snell (01:25:10):
They're selling it. They're all the, they're all good Silicon. It's great.

Leo Laporte (01:25:14):
You know what? They're not selling the touch bar. It's vintage. Now the first touch bar MacBook pro it's vintage.

Jason Snell (01:25:21):
Does that like lapels? Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:25:25):
Acid wash of MacBooks now. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:25:27):
Yeah. The first MacBook pro with the touch bar is now been added to the vintage products list. It also has a butterfly keyboard, so that's good

Jason Snell (01:25:35):

Leo Laporte (01:25:35):
It's not never, never too soon to deprecate. You get, I'm glad they're getting rid of the touch bar. That's the, that's the reason other reason I didn't buy an M two MacBook pro 13, cuz I don't want that touch

Jason Snell (01:25:45):
Bar. I mean, do we know that for a fact, of course they're getting rid of the touch bar. Of course I like kind of saying, well, you know, they haven't said they're getting rid of the touch bar. They that's true. Still sell a touch bar. They're making a computer with a touch bar today, made a new one in 20, 22 brand

Leo Laporte (01:25:58):
New one with a touch

Andy Ihnatko (01:26:00):
Bar. They never, they, they never see the code worded. Apple is never well that, that didn't work out. So we're replacing it. It's like we've made the, we've made the MacBook pro that everybody loves and we've made it. So people love it even more. Yeah,

Jason Snell (01:26:12):
That's right. Okay. With function keys and not the touch bar,

Andy Ihnatko (01:26:16):
The butterfly keyboard that everybody loves. We're our third iteration of making people love it even more. Mm-Hmm

Leo Laporte (01:26:21):
<Affirmative> okay. So Alex just had to take off, sorry about that, but thank God. I've got Jason and Andy here. <Laugh> I think they up the slack

Andy Ihnatko (01:26:32):
Is, is the queen. Okay. Is what new

Jason Snell (01:26:34):
Fortune? Yeah. I'm I'm worried that Alex has gone into lockdown.

Leo Laporte (01:26:37):
<Laugh> I, I think the Pentagon called and

Andy Ihnatko (01:26:40):
Has London bridge fallen

Leo Laporte (01:26:41):
<Laugh> yes. London bridge has fallen. Okay. So <laugh> sorry. <Laugh> anyway, we were

Andy Ihnatko (01:26:53):
All thinking it

Leo Laporte (01:26:53):
<Laugh>. Yeah. So you know Tony sorry, Emmy awards out and apple has, I have to say I did not like the first round of apple TV plus shows was not impressed by the morning show. Even Ted lasso was good, but not great.

Jason Snell (01:27:14):
Wow. You have no heart. What's wrong with you. I have heart. That's wrong with you? I am the black part. God was great.

Leo Laporte (01:27:20):
Oh it wasn't great. But I have liked a lot, some of the new apple TV plus stuff like slow horses. Good. Very, very good. So they've done some severance severance. Amazing mm-hmm <affirmative> so I feel like apple and this, you know, what, what a surprise they were brand new at this took 'em a little while they started to gain some traction. The Hollywood critics association awards. Oh, I thought this were the Emmys. The most nominated streaming who are the, is this like the foreign press awards? Is this another golden globe kind of a thing? The Hollywood critics association not gave apple 53 nominations, the most nominated streaming service severance and Ted lasso, best drama, best comedy, 12 nominations each. So obviously I am just a Grinch and Ted lasso is in fact great 16 acclaimed programs, including I'm reading from the press release. Can you tell including major category recognitions for Acapulco, the after party carpool karaoke, the series central park Dickinson, the last days of TMI gray, the morning show Paco prehistoric planet. The problem with John Stewart Shemika do with MGA Doon, which unaccountably has been renewed. Did you watch MGA Doon?

Jason Snell (01:28:35):
It was pretty funny actually. Okay. Okay. It's a parody of, of fifties it's semi musical musicals. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:28:41):
Yeah. It was, it was the first episode was fun. Yeah. Wasn't gonna watch

Jason Snell (01:28:44):
It goes on in that it goes on in that a very long Saturday live sketch. Yeah, exactly,

Leo Laporte (01:28:48):

Jason Snell (01:28:49):
But a funny one. I got the, I got the point you got, you did get it. I got the point they're in a musical league. They're in a musical. That's the, yeah. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>

Leo Laporte (01:28:55):
Slow horses. Yeah. We crashed. Which by the way, another fantastic miniseries,

Jason Snell (01:29:00):
The Emmys did come out today, by the way. So

Leo Laporte (01:29:02):
I'm reading the wrong list.

Jason Snell (01:29:04):
Yeah. So the Emmys came out, Ted lasso got a nomination for best comedy severance for best drama. So they did, they kind of duplicated, they did repeat in the, in the top categories there. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:29:15):
I apologize. I don't know how I, I guess I was reading an apple press release. There's my, yeah. I mean that's,

Andy Ihnatko (01:29:21):
We should, we should also reco we should also recognize that the Hollywood the Hollywood critics association, I think they have separate categories for network cable and

Leo Laporte (01:29:31):
Streaming. Oh, they would do well in streaming. Yeah. Yeah,

Andy Ihnatko (01:29:34):
Yeah. I'm I'm I'm I'm yeah. See best streaming documentary. Best streaming reality

Leo Laporte (01:29:38):
Show. Yeah. Okay.

Andy Ihnatko (01:29:39):
Best. So

Leo Laporte (01:29:41):
In the actual real awards, <laugh>

Andy Ihnatko (01:29:44):
The awards that you'll put in the background when you're doing, when you're doing like a video chat with somebody's

Leo Laporte (01:29:49):
Precisely the one you're gonna put on your mantle succession big time. And I'm glad cuz that is the best TV show that was ever made. The most nominations. Yeah.

Jason Snell (01:29:58):
Severance is in that drama category. That's a tough category and Ted lasso in the, in the comedy category. Yeah. Also a tough category.

Leo Laporte (01:30:03):
Yeah. Yeah. One last year for best comedy, it will face off against only murders in the building. These Steve Martin, Martin shorts, Selena Gomez vehicle only murders in the building. 17 again, not a, I hope Steve's not listening, but not a great show. Aw,

Jason Snell (01:30:20):
Wow. You, the Grinch strikes again.

Leo Laporte (01:30:23):
I am high say

Andy Ihnatko (01:30:25):
When you had your heart removed, do they fill it with like packing or is it just a void that's with you all the time?

Leo Laporte (01:30:30):
Netflix three nominations,

Jason Snell (01:30:32):
By the way, the best, best comedy on that list is hacks on HBO. Max. I enjoyed hacks. Fantastic. Again,

Leo Laporte (01:30:38):
Not a great

Jason Snell (01:30:39):
Show. Oh man. You're just killing me. You're killing me.

Leo Laporte (01:30:42):
I love gene smart. You're killing me and it's great to see. 

Jason Snell (01:30:46):
So what's the best comedy then. What's the best on that list? What's the best show

Leo Laporte (01:30:49):
On that list? I like the list. I, I didn't see the list. So let me see it. Ain't the white load. Is, is that on the list? Barry Barry. No Barry. No. Did you see the last episode of Barry? No, didn't kind of depressing. What else? Oh yeah. What else we got

Jason Snell (01:31:00):
Curb your enthusiasm season 90,000. See,

Andy Ihnatko (01:31:04):

Leo Laporte (01:31:04):
That's a long running.

Jason Snell (01:31:05):
What we do in the shadows is great.

Leo Laporte (01:31:07):
Okay. What we do in the shadows, that's love that.

Jason Snell (01:31:08):
That would

Leo Laporte (01:31:09):
Be up there for me. That's a great show. Alright.

Jason Snell (01:31:14):
But apple getting, you know, getting awards. They love it. They're in there. You know, they love it. They're in

Leo Laporte (01:31:18):
The running. They're in there. They're they're in the game, that's it? And that's all that really matters. Squid game they're speaking of games, got a nomination stranger things, Ozark. Alright, so those are the real awards, but apple how many, how many do they get a handful?

Andy Ihnatko (01:31:40):
Wow. It's hard to, hard to find. Yeah. But yeah, I'll see. It's it's also weird because I, I like most of America, it seems to have like gone away from like broadcast television. The only time I see it is when I'm picking out things to record for next week for my Plex DVR and sitcoms there's they just don't exist on network television anymore. And last and dramas are now just down to whoever was on a nighttime drama 12 years ago, playing a cop or a firefighter. So really is this is, this is the, this is the, the King's ransom for for streaming platforms because this is where comedy's being made. This is where real drama's being made.

Leo Laporte (01:32:15):
I am happy to see R SEAHO nominated for her fantastic role in better call Saul,

Andy Ihnatko (01:32:22):
Which what a surprise she

Leo Laporte (01:32:23):
Was Kim. She was, she's been ignored for many seasons, Kim Wexler. Very, very good. Finally getting her nomination.

Andy Ihnatko (01:32:31):
I think part, yeah. Can I do

Jason Snell (01:32:33):
A plug for the apple TV show that we haven't mentioned and never gets mentioned and never gets put in awards is for all mankind, which I think is actually spectacularly good and keeps getting better

Leo Laporte (01:32:44):
And keeps getting better. I think that's important.

Jason Snell (01:32:46):
Yeah. I think season three is like it's and it manages to be a family drama and also a space action drama at the same time. And it's real good people. If you haven't watched for all mankind, you've got two full seasons and half of season three already out there and there it's just, it's really good. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:33:05):
It's really, there's an alternative reality space program. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:33:09):
The Russians got their first,

Jason Snell (01:33:10):
Which is yeah. So everybody keeps their foot on the gas in terms of space stuff,

Leo Laporte (01:33:14):
Including China. So,

Andy Ihnatko (01:33:15):
So it's not far far F not, not, not so far future that it doesn't feel like it's connected to our reality cause most, and, and cuz most of the design is based on well, what if what if the space shuttle Eves E Eva suit, but if the same design, the same designers were being, trying to build something else in the 1990s and 1980s

Jason Snell (01:33:32):
And season one is set in the seventies, season two in the eighties and season three in nineties. Yeah. But they're going to Mars.

Leo Laporte (01:33:36):
There's no space force, but it's okay.

Andy Ihnatko (01:33:39):
Yeah. Famous famously.

Jason Snell (01:33:40):
I don't even know what's real and what's align now it's you? Yeah, I know. I don't even know <laugh>.

Andy Ihnatko (01:33:48):
Can I, can I, can I just, I just warn you Leo, if you, if you thought that like Renee and I could really start disrupting the show, talking about like comics and pop culture, imagine Jason and I, that relationship plus another 15 years. And this is the amount of trouble that you're in, especially when Alex leaves. Well

Leo Laporte (01:34:03):
I already verified that Jason is not the comic book near that Renee is so yeah. So we're

Andy Ihnatko (01:34:08):
Gonna five on five, but

Leo Laporte (01:34:10):
<Laugh> what we're gonna let's do the comic books we're gonna gain

Jason Snell (01:34:13):
Now when the Inari. Yeah. Well I, I do know comic book stuff, but not like Renee, not even close. Yeah. Not even close. It's

Leo Laporte (01:34:19):
Not. No. Well maybe you could bone up

Jason Snell (01:34:21):
All. I'll get Renee to teach me. Okay.

Andy Ihnatko (01:34:23):
I really think the draft of gonna be coming back in a big way in the reboot. I really think

Jason Snell (01:34:27):
So. You know you, you wear green and I wear purple. That's the draws you way you fight to the death.

Andy Ihnatko (01:34:34):
My pass of the are day. <Laugh> nice to have you on the show.

Leo Laporte (01:34:37):

Leo Laporte (01:34:40):
What else, what

Jason Snell (01:34:41):
Else? What is happening?

Leo Laporte (01:34:42):
What else is happening? What is happening to me? Midnight moves to mid-August space, gray model, still the fastest option available. If you want to get your MacBook air

Jason Snell (01:34:55):
To because space gray is the most boring of color. The you've established this.

Leo Laporte (01:34:58):
Yes. That's for boring people. Midnight is obviously the only, it's a it's

Andy Ihnatko (01:35:02):
It's a good, it's a good P it's a good substrate for stickers as a P two, which we can grow a farm of stickers. It's great.

Jason Snell (01:35:10):
I, I am a little baffled and I'm definitely disappointed by those color selections on the MacBook air. I know you can't get your heart set on rumors. There were rumors that they were gonna do the iMac colors on the MacBook air. I would've loved to have seen that, but it's such a weird smattering of colors, right? Cuz it's silver and space gray. It's the old standards. And then they bring in the, the, the Starlight and the, and the midnight. But it's like, yes, as Andy said earlier, it's kind of different shades of gray <laugh>. And I, I am a little surprised that they didn't choose one kind of popping color, cuz the one color that is there for real is midnight. But unless you're literally cuz at, at WWC, I got to hold one unless you're literally holding it so that the reflection bounces off the metal into your eyeballs. It just is black. Only when you can bounce it with just the right light. Does it look blue at all? And I just, I wish they had done something a little brighter, but maybe next time maybe the supply chain, it's just subtles blame. Let's slam the supply chain for

Leo Laporte (01:36:09):

Andy Ihnatko (01:36:10):
Also color getting a color right. Is so is amazingly hard. It's not just like picking a, picking a color out of a color palette offered by the manufacturer, getting it, getting it so that, that can be formulated and reproduced exactly. Point, point, point, point, point as you're making, I that's that's said, I mean apple does have the resources and I'm I'm I'm with you Jason, when I, one of the nice, one of the most exciting things about rumors, about the MacBook air, where it's gonna be, if you want a purple one, like just like you'll lie back. If you want a purple one, get a purple one. You want a candy red one, get a candy red one. So I'm really hoping that they, at least as the, when they're trying to, when they're not they're in the middle of the cycle, they're not ready to update the hardware yet, but they're ready to get people who were on the fence to actually remember that they want to buy a MacBook air, right? They just like with just like the,

Jason Snell (01:36:52):
When they say red one,

Andy Ihnatko (01:36:53):
<Laugh> exactly, it's a whole commercial. I hope they, I hope they expand the palette

Jason Snell (01:36:57):
To be fair to apple. The iMac and the MacBook air are different. The iMac sits in a room, so you choose the color and you put it in a room and it is there. Whereas a laptop you're taking from place to place. So I can, I can see an argument that maybe one, you have to get that color to work and wherever you take it, and maybe it stands out in places, the ways in ways you don't want. And also you take your laptop in maybe professional context. Maybe you don't wanna stand out. It has been a very long time since apple made a colorful laptop, they made that original iBook. And they basically, after that said, no, we're gonna go to boring. And maybe there is an argument to be made that people don't as much as people love the colorful iMac and might like it in their home. When it's their laptop that they're toting from place to place. Maybe they don't want a bright blue laptop.

Leo Laporte (01:37:42):
Here's my theory. People do like bright blue, but they also like bright red. They also like bright green and you're splitting those sales up into many skews and apple does not like multiple

Jason Snell (01:37:51):
S skews except the iMac. I mean that's my counter argument is that they have seven colors as well, sorry. Point six colors of iMac and then silver <laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:37:59):
Silver is not a color, not a color. I would buy a product red, M two MacBook air today. If they had a product red, I would absolutely buy it.

Andy Ihnatko (01:38:06):
But, but also to be fair, it's not as though in the window side of things, we have a lot of adventure there either. So no. Yeah, we, we just hope we just hope for more for apple.

Jason Snell (01:38:12):
I, I do wonder if there's some laptop buying psychology. That's fundamentally, I, I, like I say, I like bright colors, but when I put it in my bag and I'm going to a job interview, I, I actually don't want my bright purple laptop cuz everybody's gonna go, oh, what's with the purple laptop.

Leo Laporte (01:38:26):
Well, and also what is the percentage of laptop sales that are business versus personal, right? And it may be that, I mean, I'm sure a business isn't gonna want a color.

Jason Snell (01:38:34):
Well, they're not gonna, I mean, they're not gonna make you buy a color. They'll, they'll make you do space gray. But I think there is the question of like, if nobody wants to buy a color, right. Because they just wanna be more conservative when they're out in

Leo Laporte (01:38:42):
The world. There's a bunch of, yeah. Somewhere just purple in Africa. There's a bunch of children with purple MacBook and maybe, well,

Andy Ihnatko (01:38:49):
Just, just, just buy a show if you want like bizarre colors.

Leo Laporte (01:38:52):
So yeah, you can, that's what I do. Right. Or get a, a skin or whatever, by the way, we counted actually nine to five Mac counted, apple TV plus 52 nominations. That's a lot. They had 34 nominations last year. So the me committee obviously agrees. Apple is kind of on a a role the morning show did not get nominated. Thank you. Oh, thank you. The worst

Jason Snell (01:39:12):
Show. No actors did actors,

Leo Laporte (01:39:14):
Actors, actors did, but not the, not from best drama. Yeah. By the way, apparently I didn't know this there's a commercials category and apple got nominated for, for two commercials there. Iphone 13 pro detectives one. That's a great commercial. All right. With the focus. So they rack rack zoom, focus on the detective. What if I were the leading character? What if I did the murder? That was a great one. Why,

Andy Ihnatko (01:39:38):
Why am I in the, why am I blurred football? Cause you're just a background character.

Leo Laporte (01:39:41):
That is one of the best commercials of the year. Absolutely. And then I don't remember this everyone, but John ham.

Jason Snell (01:39:47):
Oh yeah. That's the one where John ham is watching TV and seeing promos for apple TV and is very upset. He's not in, he's not in any of them. <Laugh> 

Leo Laporte (01:39:56):
Little self-referential severance got a lot of nominations, which is great as did Ted lasso. Didn't see a lot of ations for foundation. In fact, as far as I can tell, the only nomination foundation was for outstanding main title design.

Jason Snell (01:40:11):
They have special effects.

Leo Laporte (01:40:12):
Oh they get special

Jason Snell (01:40:13):
Nominations too, too. But that's about it.

Leo Laporte (01:40:14):
Yeah. Foundation. Not one of Apple's best. Finally, before we get to our picks, did they tell you that we do picks of the week every

Jason Snell (01:40:23):
Week too. I already knew you knew that. Okay. Not been on before <laugh> I know it works.

Leo Laporte (01:40:27):
Just teasing.

Andy Ihnatko (01:40:28):
What up a

Leo Laporte (01:40:29):
Pro I should have made this my pick of the week. If you play Oregon trail and apple arcade who doesn't you will like knowing that the new Oregon trail apple watch app will track your steps for in game progress. So they'll actually tell you how close to Oregon you are. If you wanted to visit your ducks. Hmm. You could walk there. I think it's kind of a great idea. Include

Andy Ihnatko (01:40:54):
Steps. The health app can also tell you how close you're to having dysentery

Leo Laporte (01:40:59):
<Laugh> you have died of dysentery. So let me play this at this trailer for the Oregon trail here you are walking. No, no problem trends transform your daily walks into and wheelchair pushes. It runs into a westward journey. So you could find out how close you are to 2000 miles all the way across the country. I think that's great. You've arrived at Fort Fort Kearney. I love that

Andy Ihnatko (01:41:30):
Idea. This, this was, this was like a, an apple basic app, like in the 19 78, 19,

Leo Laporte (01:41:36):
Right on your apple too. Who would,

Andy Ihnatko (01:41:37):
Who would, who would've guessed that it's still around like 40 years later. That's cultural

Leo Laporte (01:41:41):
Heritage, man. Yeah. It's really awesome. It actually makes I, I am too old to have played Oregon trail in great school. You played?

Jason Snell (01:41:49):
I, I think I just missed

Leo Laporte (01:41:50):
It. Yeah. Yeah. Our, our kids probably did, but in fact, I remember when Abby went to kindergarten, there were still some apple twos in this, in the classroom. I thought,

Andy Ihnatko (01:42:00):

Jason Snell (01:42:00):
That's, they lasted a lot longer than you

Leo Laporte (01:42:02):
Might think. That's so she probably played a Oregon trail. All right, we're gonna take a break and then come back with your picks of the week. Again, Alex had to take off, sorry. Unexpectedly the president called and you know how that is when that phone goes off, you've gotta run. The,

Jason Snell (01:42:15):
The bat phone was engaged,

Andy Ihnatko (01:42:18):
Sir, sir. The, the reason why you're seeing yourself and not your grandkids is you've got the selfie camera. Just look for the look for the button that sir. So gimme the phone, sir. Hang on.

Leo Laporte (01:42:28):
<Laugh> I think you're right. Oh my God. You're muted. <Laugh> this episode of Mac Ray quickly brought to you by express VPN. Okay, sure. You can use lockdown mode, but you know, as you go online and do those Google searches or visit those websites, even in lockdown mode, they know exactly who you are. And your phone carrier knows exactly where you're go going. In fact, Verizon has even admitted to it. They say it's so we can better understand your interests. We wanna know what you buy at the grocery store so we can better understand your interests. Really, all they do really is sell those interests to advertisers, stuff like the sites you visited, things you've been up to online. Maybe you want a little more privacy than that. Maybe you want to use express VPN. It's the only VPN I use, partly because I could put it everywhere.

Leo Laporte (01:43:27):
Smart TVs, phones, computers, even on some routers and express VPN. So fast. If you put it on the router to protect your whole household, nobody's gonna complain. You can watch HD video because they invest in the network. And I look for that in a VPN provider. There's some things I really look for. One is they do not log. And this is a very important one because after all, if you're trying to avoid being spy on and then your VPN provider spies on you, you haven't done anything to improve your privacy. Not only does express VPN, not log, they go to extra length, not to log. In fact, there was a great article in bleeping computer a couple of months ago, about how express VPN protects your privacy. They created something called trusted server, an open source VPN server. It runs in Ram can, its sandbox cannot write to disc so they couldn't log.

Leo Laporte (01:44:18):
If they wanted to. Furthermore, they run an especially constructed Debian installation that automatically refreshes itself every day wipes, the whole drive. So there are, there are zero logs of what you've been doing online. So not only do you not have to worry about your ISP, spying on you, you don't have to worry about a government agency. And, and I, in some countries they don't knock. They just come and they take the servers. There's nothing on it. Express VPN protects your privacy, allows you to watch videos all over the world without geographic restriction. And they invest in their network in a couple of ways that are so important. I mentioned bandwidth that's really important, but they also rotate their IP addresses. That's super important. If you want to eliminate geographic restrictions because people don't know Google doesn't know. No one knows that. Oh, that I, I know that's an express VPN IP address.

Leo Laporte (01:45:10):
No, they don't. They're constantly updating their IP addresses. And whether you're an iPhone, Android tablet, user, whatever express VPN works on all of your devices. And somebody asked me this and I'm glad to let you know, one subscription can be used on five devices at the same time. So no problem. Get the whole family using express VPN express. VPN is the only way to protect yourself online. The only VPN I use and recommend when your phone carrier tracks you, that's a gross invasion of privacy. You can keep letting him cash in on you, or you can visit express break to get the same VPN I use. Take back your online privacy today. If you use our link, you'll get three months free with a one year package. That's the best deal. Little bit less than seven bucks a month. I think that's a really fair price to pay. You wanna pay for a VPN because you wanna be the customer, not the product, right? E X, P R E S S break. They are committed to your privacy and security express, break. We thank 'em so much for their support of MacBreak Weekly. And of course, if you wanna support us very important, use those addresses that the advertisers give you so that they know you saw it here.

Leo Laporte (01:46:32):
Ooh, I got a pick of the week prime day, air tags. Four pack, 85 bucks. Yeah, not really. No. Oh, <laugh> no, you can stock all kinds of people, such a deal, such a deal. I got, I bought four when they came out 25 bucks, each a hundred bucks for four. I keep one. My, I travel don't don't lose it. Yeah. In case you lose one, I gave one of my Lisa, I, I kept two. I gave one to Lisa and then one to Michael and they put it in there. I think they put it in their bags, which is good. I wish it was small, thin enough to put my wallet. But that's life Andy, your pick of the week, this week.

Andy Ihnatko (01:47:13):
Just one quick piggyback on what you just said. I mean, it, it is quote prime week unquote, that a lot of other companies are getting in the back of, I don't like to promote rampant consumerism just because of marketing. But is I, I do have that kind of bookmarked my mind because for the past three months, every time I was looking at like a phone charger, I was about to put my laptop bag, say, yeah, I kind of wanna replace it with a gang charger or the times where it's like, oh geez, I really need a five 12 gig like a memory stick or a or USB stick. That's when you wait, because anchor usually has like a storewide sort of sale, sand dis well like a storewide sale. So that's a, that's what I kind of like to recommend for that kind of stuff. But my actual pick of the week we're talking, we were talking about James web telescope, which is a good time as time as to remind people how, how the great work that Phil played, the astronomer does in astronomy communication and, and talking about every scientific advance, everything. That's interesting. Everything that's relatable. It's funny. Aren't relatable

Leo Laporte (01:48:07):
Should mention this. Cuz I was gonna email Phil to get him on our our coverage this morning. Then I realized that NASA had plenty of astronomers to talk about it. But Phil is the bad astronomer. Astronomer was the best astronomer. I love him. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:48:21):
He's he's that was, I'm sure he regrets. I've known him for like 15, for 15 years too. The yeah. Cuz he goes, you remember he started off as a blog of just like de looking at astronomy in movies and TV shows and saying, well that's the bad, bad depictions of astronomy, but now he's like known as the bad astronomer, but it does mean

Leo Laporte (01:48:39):
That he, he can't he's

Andy Ihnatko (01:48:40):
The best except no, he is. He's amazing. Very funny. No, he's he he's. I mean, he is, he is great. Again, there, there are people who are scientists who share their enthusiasm and they're like, they're people who don't have a lot of experience who can talk to you in your own level. Phil's one of those few scientists that he's got all, he, he know he can understand all the, all the papers he understands, not just the pretty pictures of of these pictures, but also here's what it means. Here's what it opens up. Here's what you're actually looking at. So if just Google bad astronomy, it will, will show you a blog on the sci-fi channel. It'll show you an Instagram. It will show you a, a Twitter. Also. He has, he has adorable he has adorable horses and I love ghost on his phone.

Leo Laporte (01:49:21):
Yeah. <laugh> well you both know Phil. Oh

Jason Snell (01:49:23):
Yeah. I mean, I've, I've only emailed him a couple of times, but I've been a fan for more

Leo Laporte (01:49:27):
Than a decade. He's great. And he does have a blog post on sci-fi dot com on the first images from the James web space telescope. Sure. It's really, really exciting. And his, his enthusiasm of course is completely yeah. Communicable. Mm. I've just been informed. This is your 20th appearance on MacBreak Weekly. Oh. Who knew? Knew, I thought you were the new guy.

Jason Snell (01:49:51):
Well, I made a lot of appearances back in the day and then I started getting used on TWI a lot.

Leo Laporte (01:49:57):
We love, and I think I so much, we put you on the big boy show

Jason Snell (01:49:59):
And, and it was also easier to get up here on, on the weekend. I think maybe it was part of it too. Yeah. But yeah, 20 times on MacBreak Weekly who knew?

Leo Laporte (01:50:07):
I just, I didn't Jason, I am so thrilled to have you. I wanted to get you on this show forever and ever, and ever well,

Jason Snell (01:50:13):
I I'm happy to oblige

Leo Laporte (01:50:15):
And there aren't many people who could fill Renee Richie's shoes. So we're so thrilled to have you on a regular basis. Yeah. Jason will be in studio whenever he can, but often on zoom, just like everybody else. That's fine.

Jason Snell (01:50:26):
I mean, don't you love being surrounded by TVs.

Leo Laporte (01:50:29):
I don't mind it at all. Okay. In fact, I really don't wanna have anybody around me. All

Jason Snell (01:50:32):
Right. Well, I'm outta here.

Leo Laporte (01:50:33):
I like to be alone. No, what's your, before you do that, your pick of the week.

Jason Snell (01:50:36):
Well, since I I'm new here, I get to replay them of my favorites and tell people about them who may not know about them in this case. It is an app called swift bar, which is free. There's another app. That's very much like it called X bar. These are apps that live in your menu bar. That's what they do. And they, and what do they show anything you want? <Laugh>,

Leo Laporte (01:50:56):
That's why it's such a, a scan web page.

Jason Snell (01:50:58):
Well, you gotta click to go

Leo Laporte (01:50:59):
Through apps. It's like,

Jason Snell (01:51:01):
Know what? It's like a GitHub page.

Leo Laporte (01:51:02):
You've got a great That's probably where you,

Jason Snell (01:51:05):
You could see it there. And there's a screenshot down there. The idea here is you could take anything that runs a script. It could be an apple script. It could be a shell script. It could be a Java script. It could be a Pearl script. It could be a Python script. It doesn't matter. You run what, what swift bar does is it runs the script. You put the, how often you want it to run in the file name. And it puts the results in the menu bar. And you gonna have as many of these plugins as you want. So it can do something like, be a shell script that does an apple script request to the music app to query about what song is playing and what the show art is, or, you know, the PO the the, the album art, if

Leo Laporte (01:51:41):
You really want a giant menu bar.

Jason Snell (01:51:43):
Yeah, I, I don't, but I do use the the temperature. So I've got a weather station at home. I, I love that. And I am querying my weather station every five minutes or so. And it puts the current temperature in my backyard in there. But literally if you are a nerd and have the ability to do scripting of any kind, as long as you can get that script to output text and swift bar has a very specific format of like what goes in the menu bar and what goes in the menu item. When you click on it, it's got a plugin system. So you can download plugins that other people have written, you could make your own, and then they just hang out in the menu bar. So, yeah, I've got one that shows the air quality and one that shows the temperature.

Jason Snell (01:52:22):
And if you click on it, I actually have one that shows me the forecast that I'm actually querying Apple's weather kit, API, their web API, that they just opened up and writing a little generating a little a little chart and displaying that when you click on the menu bar item. So basically if you ever wanted to have some ambient data on your Mac menu bar, and you are capable of running, you know, writing a script in some language, you can use swift bar to put it in your menu bar. And I love it. This is one of my favorite things is just little basic ambient data hanging out in my Mac menu bar.

Leo Laporte (01:52:54):
And it looks like there's some plugins.

Jason Snell (01:52:56):
There's lots of them. Swift bar and X bar both have a whole bunch of community generated plugins. I think this started as an app called bit bar, which sort of morphed into X bar and swift bar was a replacement for bit bar. So, you know, the guy who wrote it was wanting to track like Bitcoin prices. But the fact is funny. He very, very quickly realized it could literally do anything. Yeah. And it's got support for SF symbols, apples symbol library. So you can very easily just have your script right out the name of an SF symbol. And it puts the symbol in your menu bar. So you can make them look pretty great pretty quickly. And there's other terminology. If you want color or you want it to be a hyperlink so that when you pull down on the menu and select something, where does it take you? And the script can generate all of that

Leo Laporte (01:53:36):
Swift I, the only thing I hate about the new MacBook is this the notch, which to takes a big chunk outta my menu bar. I actually have to use bartender so that I can use my menu bar, cuz I'll add stuff me too. And it just disappears under the notch. So I presume this works with the bartender. It

Jason Snell (01:53:55):
Does works great with bartender. Perfect. you can do, in fact, I, I use bartender with it. So some of my ambient things are always visible and others are only visible when I mouse up to see them even better, which works great. I can't with this. It's the best part is that it's so simple. It's dead simple. In the end, the output is just some text in a format that swift bar press specifies. And what that means is whatever you're comfortable with. I had one that fired off an apple script, right? Like it could be, doesn't have to be one. So many of these tools that we get so many different macro languages and third party apps, they're like, you have to use JavaScript or you have to use whatever we, we, we determine and swift bar doesn't care. It really doesn't care. As long as you can execute it it'll work.

Leo Laporte (01:54:36):
Yeah. What do you code your swift bar plugins in these

Jason Snell (01:54:40):
Days? I'm mostly using Python. I taught myself Python last year and I really like it. Yeah. Now I'm realizing that there are a lot of apps that want JavaScript and I'm terrible at JavaScript.

Leo Laporte (01:54:50):
Oh, don't learn JavaScript.

Jason Snell (01:54:51):
But I know enough to be dangerous, but Python is, is what I prefer these days. It used to be apple script. I started, it was all like apple script and

Leo Laporte (01:54:58):
Shells scripts. Oh, say,

Jason Snell (01:54:59):
Yeah, but now it's now it's mostly Python.

Leo Laporte (01:55:02):
Jason too. It smell. We got a guy here in the seat. I'm really happy. It's really great to have you, Jason. It's great to be here. Six He will put his podcasts there or relay out FM. We

Jason Snell (01:55:15):
Work about API

Leo Laporte (01:55:18):
Inable.Com and we will, we're gonna, of course Jason's always had a page on the TWI people page, but we'll make sure that we add all the podcasts there. Oh, many we're not already there cuz yeah. I'll just plug a different one every week in about six months. We'll get to the end of the

Jason Snell (01:55:32):
Maybe. Yeah. If I haven't started new ones by

Leo Laporte (01:55:34):
Then G B H the three letters you need to know if you want to hear a, not go when next Friday at 1250

Andy Ihnatko (01:55:43):
Usual time PM, as I'm gonna be back at the Boston public library studios, and there's a coffee shop. They got sandwiches. They, you have to pay for the coffee and the sandwiches and the cookies. But sit down, have a great time. Enjoy the, enjoy the Boston public library, check out also the, they also keep the live streams both on WG based, but also on their YouTube channel. Last week's Jan on July 8th had a great kind, had a great conversation with w G B H's arts editor about AI that generates art. That was like, you know, but no, no, let's, let's not go to the mayor. We have to interview him, but let's keep talking. This was a great conversation. So yeah, it's it's we have a lot of fun

Leo Laporte (01:56:22):
There. Awesome. Thank you for being here. It's somebody who says every week, ask Andy about his blog.

Andy Ihnatko (01:56:30):
I, I can it's I, I haven't, I now have a target date. It is now it is now actually up and working and now we're doing that as, as Jason might be able to appreciate. Now, it's like, oh, but I want people who want to give me money to give me money. How do I wire that up? And I'm getting, but, but it's that the solution has been selected. Now, if someone is helping me out with that and we're borrowing, borrow it up. So I was, I was hoping, I was hoping to, I was hoping to have it up and running in time for WWDC, but also telling myself that it has to be ready to go. You, I don't, I don't wanna be one of those things where, oh, don't try to do this yet. Oh, sorry. You shouldn't have clicked on that.

Andy Ihnatko (01:57:05):
But yeah, I, I want, I want to make one announcement and then you will see like all the content I've been making for it for a long time. It was just in clear beta moment. I will be I've I've your view? And Jason of course are gonna be on the beta list. One. I like show it to show it, show it to people who could say yeah, that, that term has that, that term is not really relevant anymore. Now that Cobal is no longer the predominant scripting language. You might wanna take that outta that mastered,

Leo Laporte (01:57:32):
But I H N I have no idea how to spell Anaco but you do now I H N a T K steadily slouching toward Bethlem. Is that the title or just a it's a placeholder, just a placeholder. No,

Andy Ihnatko (01:57:49):
No, but, but the, the fun, the fun thing is that the placeholder that I had would turned out to be the real name, because like, oh, that's his kind of snappy. Great. Listen

Leo Laporte (01:57:56):
To that. Yeah. SS TB. I thank you, Jason, for not only being on the show today, but you participated in our discord, which is wonderful. Thank you. Love it. Lot of back and forth in the discord. Now, the discord is one of the ways you can chat with us. We have an IRC as well, TV, which Jason was. Did you get in there? Yeah, I did, because he was looking for an iPad. I, what did you end up doing? I ended up, well, I already had been using colloque back in the day. Yeah. Like colloquy got coqui back. Yeah. You can also use the website, TV, and that works fine as well. If you'd like to be in the discord and I'd like to invite you to do that very simple. You just have to join club TWI.

Leo Laporte (01:58:37):
Now it does cost you money seven bucks a month, but what do you get for that? A lot, add free versions of all of our shows, access to the discord, which is not just a place to chat about the shows during the shows, but really conversations about everything from coding to camping, to travel, to sport, to hardware. O T sci-fi Stacey's book club is in there. We have the untitled Linux show in there, and we use it to launch new shows. This week it space launched in our club TWI discord. We've got another one coming up with one of our favorite hosts. And you also get the TWI plus feed, which has material that wasn't in these shows, but would've been on the cutting room floor, but is now part of the twit plus feed all of that at TWI TV slash club TWI there's monthly, there's annual there's corporate memberships.

Leo Laporte (01:59:30):
And it's pretty important to us at this point. It really we're really helps us develop new programming. We have a, we have a pretty lofty goal for new programming. We'd like to do it, but of course, when something show's brand new, there's no advertising for it. So you and your support in the club really make that possible. Thank you. Thank you very much. Actually. I think Alex is our next event. Yeah. Thursday 9:00 AM. Ask me anything with Mr. Lindsay and then July 28th, the members fireside chat at Pruitt is the community manager in that club twin. I will TWI TV slash club tweet. Thank you. In advance. I will not be here next week. My Sergeant is going to host Jason, Andy and Alex, because we're doing our TWI cruise next week a hundred. I was been saying 103, but I think there's 120 people. It's big group. He used to do the geek cruises. Absolutely. Those are fun. Those were a lot of

Jason Snell (02:00:24):
Fun. Yeah. Had some good. Yeah. Good times with Andy

Leo Laporte (02:00:26):
On that. And he's done those too. Both

Jason Snell (02:00:28):
On the Mac mania.

Leo Laporte (02:00:29):
Yeah. So maybe we're bringing back geek cruises in a, in some former fashion. Nice. The twit cruises. We're going up to Alaska Paul Thra and his wife, Lisa and I the Alaska cruise leave Saturday. We'll be going up to Seattle on Thursday and then taking off on Saturday. So I'm gonna miss the whole weekend in the next weekend. I will be back on the 24th. So I'm only gonna miss one MacBreak Weekly. Thanks in advance Micah for doing that. You'll be able to watch Tuesday. In fact, every Tuesday, 11:00 AM Pacific 2:00 PM Eastern 1800 UTC. The live stream audio or video is at If you're watching live. As I said, or in the club TWI discord. Yes. We're gonna get a new hero image there. We have to have to use the magic eraser in erase Renee Richie it's it's. We could do it. I think we could do it. We have a one. Well,

Andy Ihnatko (02:01:21):
The thing is like with, with Iowa 16, we can just drag adjacent off of like one picture and

Leo Laporte (02:01:26):
Just put him right on top. Have the adjacent outline. There is also at that website, there are copies of the show with the ads in of course, but they're free at BW. There's also a YouTube channel dedicated to MacBreak Weekly and the easiest way to get the show like any podcast, subscribe in your favorite podcast player. Do me a favor. If you do subscribe leave a five star review. Let us let the world know about MacBreak Weekly. Now in its 17th year of macing and breaking. That's it for us now. Get back to work cuz break time is over. Bye bye.

Speaker 6 (02:02:08):
Is, is that an iPhone in your hand? Wait a second. Is that an apple watch on your wrist? And do I, do I see an iPad sitting there on the table? Oh my goodness. You are the perfect person to be watching iOS today. The show where Rosemary orchard and I mic a Sergeant talk, all things iOS TV OS watch OS home pod OS. It's all the OSS that apple has on offer and we show you how to make the most of those gadgets. Just head to twit TV slash iOS to check it out.

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