MacBreak Weekly Episode 821 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show. 

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for a MacBreak Weekly Rene Ritchie is in Cupertino. So Hey, great news, Mike, a Sergeant is here with us along with Andy Ihnatko and Alex Lindsay. And of course, what are we gonna talk about? WW D C how good is the M two? Which laptop should you get? What about the new Mac OS Ventura iOS 16? And in my opinion, maybe the biggest announcement of all a new look for iPad OS it's all coming up next on MacBreak Weekly podcasts you love

... (00:00:34):
From people you trust. This is TWiT.

Leo Laporte (00:00:43):
This is MacBreak Weekly episode, 821 for Tuesday, June 7th, 2022 blowing cheddah. This episode of MacBreak Weekly is brought to you by zip recruiter, summers packed with things to do, and you can enjoy them all because if you need to hire ZipRecruiter can help. Ziprecruiter's technology finds great candidates, and you can invite them to apply. Try it free at ziprecruiter.com/macbreak and buy blue land. Stop wasting water and throwing out more plastic. Get blue land's revolutionary refill cleaning system. Instead, right now you can get 20% off your first order when you go to blue land.com/macbreak and by cash flying, deliver your video on the network with the best throughput and global reach, making your content infinitely, scalable, go live in hours. Not days, learn more at cash, fly.com. It's time for MacBreak Weekly. And I think we have a little something to talk about today.

Leo Laporte (00:01:47):
Rene Ritchie is still in Cupertino, but we do have a message from him, which we will pass along in just a second, fi filling in for Rene the host of iOS today, my cohost yesterday during the event wearing a lovely cardigan it's Mikah Sargent <laugh>. Thank you. Thanks. Very nice. Very nice. Thank you. Of course. Good to have you and tech news weekly, Andy Ihnatko is here. WGBH of Boston and Mr. Alex, Lindsay, who probably has been spending the last 24 hours talking about it. It sure feels like it. How's your voice. Are you sick of it yet?

Alex Lindsay (00:02:23):
Yeah. Yes. I don't know. I'm excited. It's I get different visions of it. Every, every conversation. Yeah. Everybody has totally different. Right. So I've had like sense. This is my fourth one.

Leo Laporte (00:02:32):
Everybody who looks at it has another angle. Yeah,

Andy Ihnatko (00:02:35):
It was a good event. A lot of protein there

Leo Laporte (00:02:38):
Actually let's start with that. It was a good, you feel like it was a good event? Andy.

Andy Ihnatko (00:02:42):
Yeah, especially because it's a developer conference, but obviously the, the, the first keynote is always intended towards the press and towards consumers. And boy, did they give particularly consumers a lot to think about mostly thinking that if you bought new hardware in the past year or two, oh boy, we're gonna pay, pay things off to you. Not with just whereas last year with the new CPUs, a lot of it was, Hey, look at these charts about power consumption. Look at these charts about speed compared to Intel or compared to other things that we're doing. Now, we're basically saying, look at the things that we're look at the new features that we're gonna be able to give you that are more than, Hey, look, you can do search and replace within an email. It's like, no, here's something with you can do with your iPad that you were never able to do before.

Andy Ihnatko (00:03:27):
And yes, you, we're cutting off people who aren't using one iPads, but this is, this is us telling you that this is why this is the future. This is why you should probably start replacing your your old max with new max. Maybe this is also why you should start replacing your old windows machines with new max and new iPads, because clearly we have a, we have such a detailed roadmap for where we're going with everything and how everything's gonna work together. So yeah, this is a, this is a very, very, I'm really excited about what I'll be able to do with my hardware at the end of the year,

Leo Laporte (00:03:58):
Alex. What was the consensus in the office hours? Was this a good WWDC?

Alex Lindsay (00:04:04):
Oh yeah. I think a lot of people were pretty excited about it. I, I think that, you know, it didn't have the Wiz bang. I think it just had lots of good little features that, again, as Andy talking, you see everything starting to pull together. Yeah. You know, so all of these different pieces of hardware you know, I think that people really wanted to Mac mini <laugh>. So there was a, there was a strong, you know, there was a strong desire for Mac mini that would be on the M two, as opposed to the laptops. I think that there was a surprise that there was very little discuss their own AR VR. You know, like it just very

Leo Laporte (00:04:34):
Little like zero skipped. That was a big surprise.

Alex Lindsay (00:04:37):
It was like, it was like spatial audio was like a sentence and then we've done some spatial audio and then they moved on. And so, so it was so it definitely did not get much much time. So a lot of us that are paying attention to that paid attention to that that, that nothing happened there. But I think that, and nothing with Apple TV, no, the OS is pretty much the same as it was. It, it still feels like there's a lot of pent up hardware there that that's there that, that there's pent up the capabilities in the hardware that haven't been unleashed. And so we're kind of curious as to when that might happen. And then, you know, as far as the actual production, we thought it was, was pretty good. Pretty

Leo Laporte (00:05:13):
Good. Wait a minute, Craig fit, Agari running. That was the best part air force

Andy Ihnatko (00:05:18):
One. Talk about that.

Alex Lindsay (00:05:18):
That was the

Leo Laporte (00:05:19):
Best the bio man,

Alex Lindsay (00:05:21):
Best part in the whole of the entire thing was him running like the, the running man thing with Craig, it was unbelievably hilarious. I mean, it was just so well done because it was so cheesy. I mean, you know, they were just, they were just blowing cheddar all over the walls, you know? And they,

Leo Laporte (00:05:36):
They kind of brought back cuz I remember the last event. They didn't really have a lot of that. Those transitions. No,

Alex Lindsay (00:05:43):
It was so much fun. Yeah. I, I was really glad they brought the transitions back. Yeah. Cause they were a lot of fun. Most of them were a little weird. Like it was like, oh they didn't quite work that one out. You know, but his, some of his were, were really,

Leo Laporte (00:05:53):
Really good. Like the elevator from yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:05:55):
The elevators pretty

Leo Laporte (00:05:55):
Good. The top to the bottom of the stage and so forth

Alex Lindsay (00:06:00):
That looked like a get smart elevator, you know, and

Leo Laporte (00:06:02):
That's what I said, get smart at first I say mission impossible James Bond, but no, it was get smart. <Laugh> get smart.

Alex Lindsay (00:06:09):
Yeah, exactly. So it was, it was, I think, I think I, I was glad that they didn't try to do it back on stage. I think we would. I, I think that we would find a stage keynote to be super slow now compared to what we're used to as far as how fast they transition from one thing to the next and, and the, and the fact that the performances are way better because they get to do 'em over and over again. Yeah, yeah. You know, and so, so I think that they

Leo Laporte (00:06:30):
Did show overall a live audience. So the live audience was outside on the Apple campus. They had a big screen set up. We saw a lot of tweets and pictures from the

Alex Lindsay (00:06:37):
E D wall yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:06:38):
From people. And they had an, it was very much like a warmup act. So Tim came on and said, hi and live in person. And Craig came on and said waved. And then they said, okay, now let's, let's it's it's 10 o'clock let's do the show. And then everybody just sat watching that. And I presume they were in fact, I think I'm pretty sure there were demonstration labs and hands on after which I thought

Mikah Sargent (00:06:59):
They had a, they had to meet the developers conversation afterwards. So AF right after the event was over developers from Apple who work on swift UI, who work on the different operating systems were standing out in the crowd at these different tables. And then people could walk up to them right after the event was over and have conversations with them. And the swift UI table I was told was incredibly packed.

Leo Laporte (00:07:23):
Yeah. Interesting. Well that's developers. What did you think Mikah? Was it all that or just for me? No. So,

Mikah Sargent (00:07:32):
No. So, well, okay. So I'll say that there are quite a few little features and changes that I am absolutely excited about. I'm looking forward, dig to digging into even more, but the things about which I was the most excited or hopeful for were not announced. And of course I'm, I'm an odd person out. So I realized that, but I am very much into the smart home and automation and things like that. And there was no mention of some of the location stuff that I wanted to check out. However, one thing that I think we all need to do as journalists, if we do have developer accounts is go to Apple's website and look at the sessions that are coming out because I kind of had to shut my mouth and call me Skippy because there were several different <laugh> videos that are coming out that are covering the things that I wanted to have covered. Yeah. They just didn't, they just wasn't room on stage. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:08:24):
Exactly. It was an hour and 48 minutes. It was jam packed and they didn't get to nearly everything here is Craig Feder. Riga's running man. Transition. I'll turn on the sound. So you can, you can hear it.

Alex Lindsay (00:08:36):
I iPad OS

Leo Laporte (00:08:41):
Slow motion hair waving in the breeze. Somebody said it's a head and shoulders commercial.

Alex Lindsay (00:08:47):
Oh, that's

Leo Laporte (00:08:48):
So great. He's looking good. They're doubling down on Craig as their as their guy. Yeah. Aren't they?

Alex Lindsay (00:08:53):
Yeah. He's, he's, he's, Theus Bo

Andy Ihnatko (00:08:54):
Between between meals between like meaty, meaty, like challenging work courses of the meal, where he got his

Leo Laporte (00:09:01):
Dad jokes, comedy in about their crack naming team. And after their hard work on the M one and M two <laugh> they came up with Ventura. We'll talk about that in a little bit as the next Mac

Andy Ihnatko (00:09:14):
OS. I like, I like to joke about the Apple ch Apple car charging. Wasn't that like a slide that was like in the background?

Leo Laporte (00:09:19):
Oh, I missed that. Okay. Yeah. We gotta look at some for some Easter eggs. Rene Ritchie was there and he posted in our discord images of the Pokemon gyms on the Apple campus. There's one in these Steve jobs theater. There's there is a there is a, what do they call that battle dome? That's the gym in the Apple park visitors center. <Laugh> battle dome. And then the AR park model has another pokey stop. So there's two poke steps in a gym, apparently inside the ring. There's a whole bunch of things announced. And what we get are Pokemon location. Yeah. Thanks Rene.

Andy Ihnatko (00:09:59):
No, no, no. That's that? That's perfect. It's like, there's so the, the problem with like the people who like go to these things like in person is that you often come away with just the stuff that everybody got just by watching the video and, or just by sending off a few emails. I, I absolutely admire Rene for saying, look, I, the only one of the few things that I can do that I can only learn if I'm actually here, boots on ground is what are the Pokemon spots. And, and also are they allowing is Apple allowing stuff like that to happen on their campus? So yes, every, I want them to do everything they can possibly do. If they can have a metal detector, if they can be, have one of those ghost detectors to look for EMF fields. I, I hope they do everything they possibly can while they're allowed inside the inside the, the, the, the, the squared circle, picture,

Leo Laporte (00:10:43):
Aura pictures here, or a pictures. So they didn't have a hands on, I guess. Maybe I was because I, I saw pictures of up close of the new MacBook cares, but apparently this was the display and Tim cook is standing in front of it of the new MacBook. So you could kind of see them at a distance, but looked like Tim was keeping people from searching at

Andy Ihnatko (00:11:01):
Sense. Some, some of them, some of them did get like I Justine got, got her hands on time. Well, no, actually some of the, some of the YouTubers got their hands on time to shoot video, like with holding it, not using it, of course, but at least they got some touchy feely time. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:11:15):
Oh, okay. So let's go. We're gonna, oh boy, there's a lot to talk about. There's a new all, you know, this is kind of what you'd expect. We knew they would talk about the next Mac OS. It's called Ventura, the next iOS iOS 16. Those will presumably be out in the fall. They didn't say specifically, but they did say developer versions are out as of yesterday and the public beta will be out next month. So we'll all get to try that also that new iPad OS, which is very interesting. Let's not get, yeah. And then the new watch OS nine. So I think we have to go through this bit by bit. They didn't mention TV OS, but my guys put a link to a nine to five minute article where they talked about it. I wanna start with em two, cuz I don't know that's for me, I was looking for hardware.

Leo Laporte (00:12:08):
Remember last week we, we Rene and everybody were lowering expectations saying they might not announce hardware. I think supply chain is of course still a big concern, but they were able to announce the M two and on tech had a pretty good description of what's going on in the M two as far as they could deduce. So obviously nobody's got hands on until we have benchmarks. Nobody will really know. But it, but it's a, you know, it's in a, on says they're basically on an 18 months cadence, they also answered one question, which I'm sure Rene will answer further when he gets here next week. It is, it seems to be the SOC built or a derivative of the a 15, which is what we expected. The M one was a derivative of the a 14 clock speeds are unknown on the M two.

Leo Laporte (00:12:57):
But it is a bigger chip 20 billion transistors, which is you know, 25% more than the M one and and 5 billion more transistors in the, a 15 in your iPad. So it's not an a 15, it's more than, but it's based on the architecture of the a 15 second, they called it the second Jan generation five nanometer process, which Anon says is likely TSM C's N five P line, which is also used for the a 15 and five P offers, improved performance characteristics versus N five, but not density improvements. So that's why the chip is a little bit bigger. You have to make room, it's not more dense. You know, Apple went through a few of the, you know, the quilt. I love that term by the way, Mike, I'd never heard that before the qu that was Andy's was it? Yeah. The

Andy Ihnatko (00:13:49):
Feature

Leo Laporte (00:13:50):
Quilt feature, Quil feature quilt, the feature quilt for for this had a lot of details, but you know, as always until you get your hands on the thing, it's kind of hard to know. Yeah, exactly what it is.

Andy Ihnatko (00:14:02):
A lot of it just looks very incremental. I'm, I'm surprised that they're go there's, it's stuck with just two Thunderball ports supported as cuz that was the, that for a lot of people, myself included, that's one of the few real bottlenecks of owning a machine that has an M one. And it seems, I wonder if Apple is making that sort of a distinction between people who need to upgrade to, to one of the max, one of the pro CPUs that know you're gonna get just two thunderbolts, probably limited to just two displays, no matter what machine you have. A lot of the stuff I was, I was reading the same, an Ontech teardown is as you did. And a lot of this stuff is what, what impressed me is that a lot of it is not so much working, not, not as much doing calculations faster, so long, as much as moving data in and out faster like there's a more shared L two cash.

Andy Ihnatko (00:14:55):
More me that's a big, a big deal is accessing more memory. So having a 24 gig ceiling instead of 16, which when you think that the pro and the ultra CPUs are basically scaled up versions of of the M one and the M two, you have to imagine this will also mean that when we get to the, the pro series and the max, that means that you will also have like a convergent expansion of, of top top amount of memory available to those machines too faster. DDR me DDR five instead of DDR four. So that's higher bandwidth. So it's, it's, it's incremental. I, I think what I'll, I'll just say that. I wonder if a lot of people listening, like have the same adjustment that I'm making that whenever, whenever I see, oh, this, this is, this, isn't the M one, this is the M two that puts me in the mind of, oh my God, this is going to be a whole new redesign. This is gonna be able to do magical things that it wasn't able to do before. It'll smell like strawberries all the time when you're working with it. Whereas it's more like the like iPhone CPU upgrades where yes, it's basic or, or when when Intel has the, you still have an I seven processor, but it's a new version of the I seven processor. So it's gonna be incrementally faster.

Leo Laporte (00:16:10):
Yeah, I thought 24 gigs was interesting, although you still, the base model, according to the Apple store is still eight gigs, which is yeah. Kind of nutty, I guess they, you know, they do, they turn off three of the four banks or something. I don't know what they're doing. It's a little annoying. They maybe that's a binning issue. They may not have the, the yields to do all 24. Right. Gigs, although I guess now it'll be twenty four, forty eight, ninety six, a hundred ninety two. Like the, the multiples, which is interesting. It is DDR five, as you pointed out a hundred gigabytes, a second memory bandwidth, that's a big increase. That's 50%. That's

Andy Ihnatko (00:16:46):
50%. Yeah. Did

Leo Laporte (00:16:47):
Your, did your people, Alex get excited over that? Cause I know from the point of view of a GPU, having very fast unified memory, a available and a lot of it available to the GPU is a big deal.

Alex Lindsay (00:16:58):
Well, that's been something a lot of people are paying attention to is that unified memory architecture. So for many of the things that we wanna do everything from iOS to, to the Mac OS being able to, you know, have that, that work is very complex. So this morning we were talking about audio video WWC updates. And we had the CTO from film pro from Filmon as well as lead engineer from fusion and the lead engineer from mix effect. And one of the things they talked about is how a lot of them are writing to the metal. I mean, writing to metal, but writing like they are on the exotic solution process, pollution process where they just they're running out of. They're just right.

Leo Laporte (00:17:41):
You get every inch of speed

Alex Lindsay (00:17:42):
Outta there. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:17:44):
AEX the memory bandwidth is often a bottleneck with GPUs. So getting a faster bandwidth, but they also point out DDR five is not new. The M one O max and ultra had DDR five, which I did not know. It was only the original M one that was stuck with DDR four still. So that a hundred gigabit, you know, that, that 50% proven is only over the original M one, but still this is important and it's a lot of memory and the faster it gets, the better it gets. They also, the biggest change in the M two is not CPU so much as GPU. Were they excited about that?

Alex Lindsay (00:18:21):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just gonna mean as we go through, the GPU has used in so many places, you know, it's everything, you know, from, obviously Apple's talking a little bit about scaling but it's also just every single part of what we do from 3d models to video, to even audio is, is affected by the GPU performance. And so increasing the GPU capacity as well as increasing the speed is, is incredibly important for what we work on.

Leo Laporte (00:18:49):
They claim 18% faster CPU. And again, we don't know what the clock speed is. So it's unknown really what that means, cuz the efficiency cores and the are DD from the performance cores, et cetera, et cetera, et C. And

Alex Lindsay (00:19:01):
I think that the problem really is is that a lot of the traditional testing that people would do around clock speed around individual, small tests aren't as accurate because when you start talking about the throughput speed, the, the, you know, how it's managing all of the data it, it may not measure on a, on a clinical test that that's a lot faster and then it actually becomes a lot faster as you go as you move.

Leo Laporte (00:19:25):
Cause your Render's faster, even though the CPU isn't faster, everything's moving right

Alex Lindsay (00:19:28):
Through

Leo Laporte (00:19:28):
The, and is a hundred gigabytes second and fast. Is that fast? Yes,

Alex Lindsay (00:19:32):
It's far as I know. I actually don't know that number well enough. So I don't, I don't know if that's, it feels

Leo Laporte (00:19:36):
Fast.

Alex Lindsay (00:19:37):
It feels really fast. It feels fast.

Leo Laporte (00:19:38):
Like

Alex Lindsay (00:19:38):
I can, I can feel the wind going through my, through my hair, you know, on that. But I, I don't know. I don't know whether it's the, you know, I'm going faster. It's just a windy,

Leo Laporte (00:19:46):
They're claiming a 35 up to 35% faster GPU. So almost double the increase for the GPU. And I, by the way I, I was, I've been talking about this for some time because we knew it would probably be based on the a 15, that Apple's problem is when the M one came out, it was such a leap forward, you know, five times faster and things <laugh>, they're not gonna be able to do that every generation. So this was gonna be the beginning of incremental improvements along the line. And the real question is, you know, where these improvements are and, you know, clearly focusing on the neural engine, it's 40% faster. And on the GPU, it's 35% faster is, you know, a smart way to go, I think.

Alex Lindsay (00:20:26):
And they add the ProRes, the ProRes and the H 2 64, 5 compressors right into the chip. So that was ex external before, oh, I didn't know

Leo Laporte (00:20:33):
That that's now on the processor.

Alex Lindsay (00:20:36):
It's on the processor. And what's interesting about that is that it's, it's a lot. I don't think that, I think it's a lot faster because it's now in the chip, it's, it's no longer part of the board. So in the max the, the studio max, as well as the, as the 16 inch max, those chips were discreet and they were on the board by putting them into the, the central processor. You end up with a lot more delivery of the data. So it's gonna be a lot faster.

Leo Laporte (00:21:00):
So on chip is now the high performance media engine, the ProRes in code and decode.

Alex Lindsay (00:21:05):
That's incredible. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:21:06):
Support for six K external displays. That's new.

Alex Lindsay (00:21:10):
I think one,

Leo Laporte (00:21:11):
One,

Alex Lindsay (00:21:12):
I think display E yeah. We, we, I think we, we talked that, that we talked about a lot, really, so, so yeah. A lot of people want, yeah, when you look at the laptops, you really, you know, a lot of people want to come home and have it be part of their, their system as opposed to,

Leo Laporte (00:21:26):
So you wanna be able to have a six K monitor that you, is it, or two

Alex Lindsay (00:21:30):
Or two or two 4k. Yeah. You know, like, and, and, and the issue is, is that, is that I think that the, the, what I did find surprising is I know they came out with these lower end ones. And this seems to be the, to that they're starting to, yeah. This, these are,

Leo Laporte (00:21:41):
These are presumably lower end. Yeah, yeah,

Alex Lindsay (00:21:43):
Yeah. But, but the issue is, is that for me, and a lot of people that I know, as soon as we saw an M two 13 inch Mac pro, no, one's buying a 16 inch M one, like, like, like everyone's like, oh, you know, now it becomes, oh, that's interesting a really high cliff, because now everyone wants no, no one wants to buy an M one. Now, you know, like you wanna now wait

Leo Laporte (00:22:01):
For the thinking down the road, there'll be an M two pro. Yeah. And max in a 16 inch.

Alex Lindsay (00:22:07):
So everyone's gonna try to hang on. So it really kills the sales to not have those max pros come out at the same time. Yeah. And really, it really kicks the sales. So I think that obviously by the end of the year, they're gonna have to upgrade. I don't think they can wait into next year because I think it really will depress sales of the 16 inch. If maybe that doesn't matter as much to them, but, but for a lot of us, we, you know, no one wants to buy an M one now, cause they're afraid you're gonna,

Leo Laporte (00:22:28):
Mike and I were talking during the event about maybe they thought that they would slipstream. So when they did the M one announcement with the low end M ones, they did IMAX and Mac minis as well as the 13 inch and the MacBook air, perhaps they will slip stream those extra low ends in the next few months. In fact, I already saw a rumor. They might do that. And M two Mac mini might be in the offing. And then maybe in the fall, what was the, what was the cadence last time? It was,

Alex Lindsay (00:22:57):
It seems like you, they would announce it October, November for the, yeah. For the computers, because the iPhone gets to own the only thing the iPhone would potentially share any, any time with in the fall would be the Apple TV. If they, if they had some more Apple TV plus or some kind of activation that they wanna do. The, the one thing that could happen is let's say, you know, the iPhone now, the Apple TV plus now does, you know, 4k 120 frames a second, which is capable of, but no one, but it hasn't been activated yet. And they talk, talk about how the phone now can capture one twenty four K easily view it on the, on the Apple TV that that kind of thing might happen. But outside of that, they'd really try to keep it. It's pretty much about the iPhone

Leo Laporte (00:23:34):
Point. There is a choke point on the supply chain. The I next iPhone will have the a 16, but rumors are only the high ends. The pros will have the a 16 and the, the lower end will ha will stick with the a 15, which means a short supply in the a 16. So there may there, they may be pushing up against the limitations of what TM SMC can do too.

Alex Lindsay (00:23:53):
I still, I still think Apple could flex. I, I know this sounds crazy, but I think that they could flex on a week before the event and just go, Hey, we're gonna put something out next week. Here are the prices. Choose your poison without knowing what it is, just to show people that they can sell 20 million phones without even showing us what they are. Cause, you know, especially when you know that it's constrained supply, right. If you know, it's constrained supply, there's a lot of us that would just buy it. Like, like I'm gonna buy that one. We can guess what it, what it, what it has. I'm gonna buy that one ahead of time. And, and I bet you it'd be 10 to 20 million people. And that's a, that would be a huge flex by Apple just to show that we don't even have to tell people what it is and they'll buy, it's just gonna, Buy's gonna buy exactly sold. They're gonna buy it. It's sold out. We sold out. Like I could just imagine Tim cook, walking up and going. We sold out through the end of the year before this event. <Laugh> like, like before we even told you what it was, you know,

Leo Laporte (00:24:42):
They did talk how long be

Andy Ihnatko (00:24:43):
Before, how long before Apple offers like direct deposits, you can have your paycheck to put directly on your Apple

Leo Laporte (00:24:48):
Card. Well, they do have buy now pay later. We'll talk about that a little bit. Maybe <laugh> maybe that's the secret. They, they were a little scan in details about when you can order it. They were able to put out the prices. And the only difference in pricing is 200 bucks more for the Mac, the base model, MacBook air 1199 instead of 9 99. But everything else, as I am believe is the same price with the M two in it. They also, let's not forget they've got a Mac pro to deliver this year. They probably don't wanna steal its thunder. This is gonna be interesting. And then there's supply chain and that's a huge unknown. So all they said is available next month available. Does that mean for pre-orders? Is that mean you'll be able to pick it up, does that, what,

Alex Lindsay (00:25:38):
Before they're gonna you're you could order it before July 31st.

Leo Laporte (00:25:41):
Yeah. That's all we know. <Laugh> exactly. They, I mean, obviously they're, they're, there's some factories somewhere making 'em as fast as their little feet concurred, but how many they'll be able to make is really gonna be limited by how many chips they can get, right. Et cetera, et cetera. And it's the legacy nodes that are even more problematic than the M two S so if there's a lot of unknowns and I bet I bet you supply chain king, Tim cook is fre. <Laugh> just a little bit over over all this.

Alex Lindsay (00:26:11):
I will say that the M two, I mean, as, as a, as a parent, the M two, the new M two air is a pretty awesome, like, pretty awesome computer for your kids, like going to school or whether they're going to college or whatever. It's just a incredibly powerful machine for schoolwork

Leo Laporte (00:26:27):
As last year. The difference between this, the MacBook air and the MacBook pro 13 is you've got more capacity for battery. The battery's life is better. Although now that they're not a wedge, I don't know if that's the case and you have active cooling, you have a fan in the, in the MacBook pro

Alex Lindsay (00:26:43):
And more and more thunderbolts, right. Or more, more connect connectivity,

Leo Laporte (00:26:47):
More connectivity, same number of Thunderbolt channels, but more

Alex Lindsay (00:26:50):
Port, although do get a mag

Leo Laporte (00:26:52):
Safed. You get a mag safe on both, but

Alex Lindsay (00:26:54):
Only, but only in the air, like,

Leo Laporte (00:26:57):
Oh, you don't get a mag safe on the third. Oh, they didn't redesign in the 13. That's why. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:27:01):
So you only get it in the air, but in the air, you get, you get a M safe back. So, and it looks

Leo Laporte (00:27:05):
Much like the old one, Mike wasn't much of a redesign in the air. They, they got rid of the wedge, but that's about it.

Mikah Sargent (00:27:11):
They essentially made the MacBook air look like the other MacBook that are available with, with the M one chip. So all of them now have that, it's those four little what do, what do they call plateaus on the bottom, those little four plateau feet that are available on the MacBook pros? It got mag safe and it has the same sort of front style with the notch as well. So yeah, they're just bringing it in line with the current

Leo Laporte (00:27:36):
Design. Everything's so much square squared off now. Yeah. But that's

Alex Lindsay (00:27:41):
Yeah, go ahead.

Andy Ihnatko (00:27:43):
The it's yeah. The wedge is starting to look starting to look at, I mean, that's, that's the original design, like Steve jobs pulled out, pulled that design out of a envelope. So yeah, they got Apple is not gonna be happy with keeping that same stock design. I, I just, the, the only thing that I'm, we, we often make fun of like all these YouTube channels that OBO, like what, what a, what a, what a horrible, horrible piece of news from Apple that look how easy it is to bend and, and crack and destroy this iPhone simply by putting like eight tons of pressure on it. But nonetheless, I'm at that's so thin. It was a 12.3, 12, 12.3 millimeters or something. That's so thin that even when I put my iPad pro in my bag, if I've got that bag really stuffed, full, I get worried about the pressure being put onto the iPad that maybe it will flex a little bit and it'll put a little bend in it. I really want to see YouTube YouTubers and other people actually compare that to the old iPad, to the 13 inch MacBook to see if it's weaker and if it's more susceptible to, to bending or breaking than anything else, cuz that's that becomes, I, I love how slim it is. It, it it's feels as though it's it's gonna be a challenger to my iPad pro with the magic keyboard, but oh, that's not, I will love it up until the point, which I, it starts to wobble like a wobble, like a potato chip

Leo Laporte (00:29:02):
Mag safe, two thunder bolts on the left. It's got a, a high impedance headphone Jack on the right. Yeah. Notch and real function, keys and fingerprint sensor. And then unfortunately, cuz the 13 inch did not get redesigned. There's still a touch bar on the 13 inch. There's no notch, but they have big bezels. So really it as if the notch goes all the way around, I guess the notch bothers me a little bit because my menu bar is so full. I have to use bartender to scooch things out of the way cuz otherwise stuff literally goes under the notch. And I, I don't even know if it's there and, and I use some programs like Emax where if I'm full screen, the notch is there, you know, safari and others are smart enough just to go full screen to the notch level. But the notch bugs me. I don't like the notch on the other hand, I like it more than I like the touch bar. So I think the air, the air is probably the way to go. And performance wise, the air should be identical except for sustained throughput. Right.

Alex Lindsay (00:30:03):
So yeah. So if you're gonna do any, anything, that's gonna require a lot of CPU over 20 minutes. You're you're not, the air is not the right thing for you, you know? So if you

Mikah Sargent (00:30:09):
Like rendering photogrammetry,

Alex Lindsay (00:30:12):
<Laugh> like, well rendering, photogrammetry, rendering video, you have a long video that needs to be rendered out or compressed. You have a 3d rendering. Like many of our three, much of our 3d rendering is considerably longer than 20 minutes. <Laugh> so sometimes all night. Yeah. And, and so if we're rendering something with Ray TRAC in a global,

Leo Laporte (00:30:28):
I'll bring that home and do it on my studio. And 

Alex Lindsay (00:30:30):
You should, but I mean, again, we've done it a lot and laptops, but without a fan, it, it will be a big deal. Yeah. Like it, it will end it'll, it'll slow to a crawl over

Leo Laporte (00:30:38):
Time. I have to correct myself. That was, that is not a courage port on the right. It is an audio Jack. <Laugh> not a he phone Jack. So it is high impedance. So it'll

Alex Lindsay (00:30:49):
Drive like really, really good headphones.

Leo Laporte (00:30:51):
Yeah. Pro headphones. Yeah. anything else to say about the M two, except Apple's continuing to build upon this Apple Silicon in a very impressive fashion. What did the,

Mikah Sargent (00:31:04):
No, I'm not surprised that they didn't, but at the same time I noted that they didn't go ahead and say, oh, and by the way we have that secret little thing on the side that lets us connect multiple together. Because remember with the M one, they didn't reveal that until they revealed the max studio. At which point they said, we've got this special connector that was Al always there ready to have two of them laying side by side. They didn't mention that with the M two. But I imagine that the same thing is going to play out.

Leo Laporte (00:31:30):
What did the office hours folks think about hardware? Anything we've left out cuz I'm sure there was a lot of conversation about that, Alex.

Alex Lindsay (00:31:38):
I mean, there was a fair bit of it. I mean, con the continuity camera is really popular in office hours.

Leo Laporte (00:31:43):
That's interesting. Isn't it? Yeah. A

Alex Lindsay (00:31:45):
Lot of people were really, it was like, so the most impressive, cuz I think across the board, in the conversations that we've had the everyone's favorite. I mean, when we were watching, cuz we were watching a couple hundred of us were watching it together yesterday. <Laugh> when Craig did the run, that was the, the hit, you know, like everyone was laughing and having a great time with it. But the thing that got everyone to like really just stop and look at what they were doing was the continuity camera with the Al using the ultra wide and then re deforming a, a prospective view underneath it into something that looked flat. And there was a lot of people that were just like, whoa, <laugh> that's, that's a, that's a flex. Like that's like, like that,

Leo Laporte (00:32:23):
That was something to go, don't get your hopes up because there was a hands on, I can't remember who did it was Apple insider, a nine to five. Somebody obviously installed the developer bale immediately. <Laugh> right. And showed us what it looks like. Don't get your hopes up. <Laugh>

Alex Lindsay (00:32:38):
It was just an inter I mean, it's one of those things that, that,

Leo Laporte (00:32:41):
You know, a us, I too got excited. I thought, wow, that's really cool. 

Alex Lindsay (00:32:45):
Well again, I think that it's, it's, it's gonna take a little while before they release it. So we're probably looking at an early one.

Leo Laporte (00:32:50):
Number two. Yeah. This is a,

Alex Lindsay (00:32:51):
A lot of us have a lot of, yeah. A lot of us have lots of cameras and we probably wouldn't want that angle anyway. Right. But the fact that they were, you know, really that's that cool. That's, that's heavy math. Like that's not like a simple math part.

Leo Laporte (00:33:02):
Here's Wesley Hilliard's article, hands on an Apple and cider. He he's got his iPhone 13 there. It does use the wide angle by the way, this is actually a good thing to know. And again, this is the developer release. So this is early days, but this is center stage. He says center stage requires you to use wide angle, which means it is a little bit softer. As you can see portrait studio light, you can stack them portrait and studio light looks pretty darn good. I really like that studio light feature. This is the 14 inch MacBook pro versus the iPhone 13 pro Maxin studio display studio display, guess which one's the studio display? <Laugh> holy cow. But unfortunately this is the, this is the desk top shot. He says desk mode is a bit awkward depending on when you use it. The camera can only see so far down. So it needs plenty of space in front to actually see a desk in our testing desk mode focused on our chest at about a three degree angle below the camera at three feet away. So unless you have a desk on your chest it's

Alex Lindsay (00:34:10):
Maybe. Yeah. I mean, I think that on

Leo Laporte (00:34:12):
Her heart, it was a good demo demo. It was a good demo, California burrito with extra salsa. So do, did camo get sherlocked

Mikah Sargent (00:34:20):
Doesn't look like it?

Leo Laporte (00:34:22):
No,

Alex Lindsay (00:34:23):
Not, no. I think that, I think that it camos got some trouble, like it's, it's gonna be, you know, like regardless of, of there'll

Leo Laporte (00:34:29):
Be a percentage of people who will say I've got all I need

Mikah Sargent (00:34:32):
With that. Especially folks who haven't even heard of camo in the first place that now they've got this feature that is built in and is a little bit more discoverable and doesn't require cables and things like that. So yeah. And at the, the group that they're going after right now now they've got some trouble there, but I, if it, if it doesn't work very well in comparison to me being able to have a cable plugged in that does have a very high quality video, then I'm sticking of what I got.

Leo Laporte (00:34:59):
Well, yeah. In fact, it might be good for camo because it'll raise the awareness that you can use an iPhone and they may say, oh, maybe I need a better solution than camos. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:35:08):
I mean, I think that the vast majority of us within office hours are, is using filmic with or shoot shoot. Does the,

Leo Laporte (00:35:14):
Yeah, I started with shoot. I like shoot a lot. You told me about shoot. I started with shoot. Yeah. I don't know why I bought camo. I, I bought both of them and I ended up using camo. I can't remember why, but both of them are let you use the camera without any you know, in a clean feed. Right. And it, I used it on Sunday. You know, our studio got fried. We had a power outage overnight on Saturday night and an analog board got fried, even though it was on a ups and we couldn't do audio out of the studio. So I had to go home, thank God I had camo set up with my iPhone 12 and all of twit was done on camo with iPhone 12. And it saved the day to be honest zoom, right? By the way, zoom worked better at home than it does here. <Laugh> <laugh> zoom. Zoom is amazing, Alex, cuz I had to do it old school where it was one zoom call with four people and worked great.

Alex Lindsay (00:36:08):
It's it's the big tank somebody

Leo Laporte (00:36:11):
Pointed out it's there's less lag. There was less lag on that, doing it that way than there. And I guess that makes sense. We're doing here. We do four different or three different zooms.

Alex Lindsay (00:36:21):
Yeah. You have twice. You pay twice for it. So that's like for, for the bigger shows I do. I still use individual computers for each person like you do in TWI for office hours, we're using what's called zoom ISO, which allows us to basically go into an existing meeting and then grab 10 P feeds out of it. And so we pull those feeds directly you know, out of it and pump them into a switcher. And that's where, I mean, I think that TWI will eventually want to go. It's there's a lot of there's a lot of development in that area. When, when zoom bought liminal, all that stuff came.

Leo Laporte (00:36:54):
I have to have to hire you for a consult because that was,

Alex Lindsay (00:36:58):
You don't have to hire me. Leo, you can just call

Leo Laporte (00:37:00):
Me. That was one really big. I'll have some John will call you. There was a big surprise was that I didn't have any latency. There were people didn't talk over each other on Sunday. And it was like, wow, I'm this, this should be worse. Not better, but it actually was better. It makes sense. Cuz one zoom call so that they could synchronize it a little bit better I guess, but yep. Yeah. alright. So hardware wise, what are you, what are you buying Alex?

Alex Lindsay (00:37:26):
None of

Leo Laporte (00:37:27):
The stuff that, none of the stuff you're gonna wait for an M two Promax.

Alex Lindsay (00:37:32):
I mean I have, I just bought the studio, so I have I've I've made studio recently. Fantastic. Don't have

Leo Laporte (00:37:37):
Laptops studio max. I don't need the ultra

Alex Lindsay (00:37:40):
And I, I have no interest in small screens. Like I have, I bought a 14 inch to make because I was gonna, when I travel, I'm gonna do this thing. Yeah. Well a I haven't traveled very much and B I hate the 14 inch. Like I hate that form factor with a passion, like when I open it up, I'm just like, oh my goodness. I can't believe I did this <laugh> so, so anyway, so, so like I just, every time I open it, I'm a angry I'm like I just use my iPad. And so so anyway, so, so I, I hate that 14 inch and I, I don't like the form factor. I really want, I wanna go back to the 17 inch factor. I'd be, I'd buy an 18 inch laptop. But but I, I don't and

Leo Laporte (00:38:14):
You make a good point that this just telegraphs, what they're gonna be doing next with the more yeah. Ion stuff. Do you think the pro will be an M two? I guess it will be.

Alex Lindsay (00:38:22):
I think it'll be an M two. I think you'll end up with a mag safe along with two thunderbolts or

Leo Laporte (00:38:28):
No, not the laptop. The Mac pro

Alex Lindsay (00:38:30):
The desktop. Oh, the Mac pro. Yeah. I, I think the big thing with the Mac pro the big question is whether they're gonna make it big enough to put PCI slots in. I mean, cause I think that that should be

Leo Laporte (00:38:37):
There. Whether you, a lot of us hope that need you

Alex Lindsay (00:38:39):
Need internal. So a lot of us want to yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:38:42):
Want, wanna do that? Yeah. Andy, you did you, <laugh> somebody in the chat room said, boy, Leo's lucky that you couldn't buy this right away. <Laugh> cause I had my finger, but it was no point in hovering it over. Any buy button. Andy do, are you tempted?

Andy Ihnatko (00:38:58):
No. I'm still waiting for whatever. I still think that the best Mac in my future is going to be a very, very nicely loaded Mac mini with whatever, when they, when they really do refresh the Mac mini, they don't make it into a studio. They just simply say, we're gonna take this form factor. We're gonna take this rough price point and we're just gonna put hotter Silicon in it. That's what I'm waiting for. Yeah. Love the MacBook air if it's, it's for, there's so many reasons today and we'll get into some more of that later on today, but there's so many reasons now for wondering, why is Apple continuing to make a Mac line and an iPad line? Cuz the MacBook air really does. If, if we, if that, if that design, if that render had come out like two or three years ago as, Hey, Apple's coming out with a new iPad that has an integrated keyboard and trackpad, we would've believed it immediately because that's the right design line language.

Andy Ihnatko (00:39:49):
It's the right, the size, it's the right thickness. It's it's gonna be interesting. I I've I'm we're gonna be looking for a shake up in the MacBook line because it's hard to figure out why there's a 13 inch MacBook and a MacBook air. Why not simply have the two larger sized ones and make give the people who have, who are coming in with 12, 13, $1,400 to spend on a laptop, some clarity. The, the only, the last thing I'll say is that I'm glad that Apple still has a 999 MacBook on the, on the price list. I'm disappointed that it's well, we're just gonna take like the last year's model and just keep it on the price list. I, I think that Apple really needs to maintain commitment to having at least one MacBook under a thousand dollars. And I, I think they should be aiming for 8 99 for the minimum buy-in to buy a portable Mac. So it's, it's I I'm looking forward to them basically looking at the $900 price point, the thousand dollars even price point and saying, no, we're not gonna just give you the old Mac. We're gonna give you something brilliant and wonderful that is designed so that we can actually sell it to you and make a profit for that. But we acknowledge that a lot of people have a hard ceiling of a thousand dollars to spend on a, on an air, on a MacBook.

Leo Laporte (00:41:01):
I do like 24 gigs of Ram over 16. I think that's kind of, that's good. Kind of nice. What do you think, Michael does this, does any of this tempt you?

Mikah Sargent (00:41:11):
So I have an Intel MacBook pro a 16 inch. Oh, well

Leo Laporte (00:41:15):
You need a new one

Mikah Sargent (00:41:16):
For sure. So, well here's the thing. It is my portable device. Right. And increasingly I am realizing that I would benefit from a smaller device. That could be my portable device. It's the, the laptop that I use for the tech guy when I come in on Saturdays with you and I've got that little desk to sit it on. My, my little lunch tray. And so I've got this Mac studio that is blazing fast. It's amazing that I'm using right now that I use for my shows and, and it is great, but as a secondary device, I think now that it would be my, you know, true secondary device. I don't know if, if I wanna wait for the, the 14 inch MacBook pro that's, you know, will come out with the M two chip or, you know, dig in right now with the 13 inch MacBook pro or even the MacBook air, because for my purposes as a secondary device, any of those is any M one

Leo Laporte (00:42:06):
Step up yeah's gonna be better. Yeah. That's always true. The people who are really BA you know, have old machines, anything that you step up to. I, we, I bought a M one Mac mini instead of a studio for the studio my main, my radio studio. And it's been great. And I it's it's frankly, it's indistinguishable in day to day operation from any other M one. And I'm not sure the M two will be noticeably different from any other M one. I think it

Alex Lindsay (00:42:33):
Depends on what you, what

Leo Laporte (00:42:34):
You do with yeah, yeah, no, that's what I'm saying, but I'm talking about day to day, you know, email, web browsing. Yeah. I mean stuff. Most people do not photogrammetry.

Alex Lindsay (00:42:42):
No, I, I have seven of them. <Laugh> so like I of the, and I have five of six of those are I owned? I mean, six of 'em. I bought myself not the company. Like I, I own, well, I have them for office hours and they are most of them are eight gigs cuz I just needed 'em quickly in our interesting, I didn't think. And they've been fine. And then the one, the one 16 is here that I use for a variety of things and it's, I, I can hit the ceiling on it. Like I, it's not like DaVinci resolve will hit the ceiling you know, on it. What

Leo Laporte (00:43:13):
Does that mean? It, it slows down or

Alex Lindsay (00:43:15):
It starts to crawl. It starts to have some anomalies. It just, it just it's just

Leo Laporte (00:43:19):
Way. So it's unreliable. That's not, well,

Alex Lindsay (00:43:20):
It's six it's to be fair. It's it was six channels or six video streams of 5.7 K black magic raw. Well

Leo Laporte (00:43:30):
Of course it crawls. Okay. See your day to day operation a little different

Alex Lindsay (00:43:35):
<Laugh> when I move that, when I move that to the, to the, to the studios runs like butter, isn't it like, I can, I can now do it. So, but so I know where the, I know where the, but for almost everything I do on a day to day basis, 90% of it, the Mac minis, just rock, you know? And I, yeah. I love them. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:43:53):
I, I have to say the new air has some compelling features. Even if you had the M one air, a 10 AP camera, although we haven't yet seen, you know, there's Mac studio also has a display also as a to AP camera that by itself, doesn't tell you anything 0.4, four inch height which is interesting, cuz the MacBook air with that wedge starts at six point 16 and goes to 0.6, three, I guess I should do it in metric, but I'm sorry. This is America. And wait it, I, you know, I thought 2.7 pounds, that sounds heavy, but it is still lighter than the M one MacBook air by a 10th of a pound. So there are reasons you might wanna look at a new air and I have to say, I, I feel like by not redesigning the MacBook pro 13 inch Apple might have made a little bit of a mistake.

Andy Ihnatko (00:44:43):
Yeah. I'm a little disappointed too. That one of the best, one of my favorite rumors for about the back book air was that they are going to offer it in the same, like really wonderful range of colors as they had, they created for the IMAX and do it. It's like, okay, it's, I mean, it's not bad, but I understand that they can't have, they can't have a whole bunch of lime green. They can't find out by empirical failure that no one wants the lime green air and the lime green air is the only one that you can actually pick up at the store today. The rest of 'em have like a three month wait, frankly, but

Leo Laporte (00:45:13):
The supply chain issues, I'm surprised they even did four, four SKUs.

Andy Ihnatko (00:45:17):
True. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:45:19):
You know, this is, you don't wanna make more than you have to. I guess there's no issue. Supply chain issue in color aluminum. <Laugh>

Andy Ihnatko (00:45:26):
The great thing about having three, you have two shades of gray. That means that you, you're not gonna think twice about putting really cool stickers

Leo Laporte (00:45:32):
On it. Oh the third thing on the MacBook gear is that 24 gigs of ramp the them too. I think that that that's a significant difference.

Alex Lindsay (00:45:39):
I just think it's available on black.

Leo Laporte (00:45:41):
Oh, you just still want black is ized, aluminum and black hard to do

Alex Lindsay (00:45:47):
Isn't it. Isn't it black. Didn't it have a black

Leo Laporte (00:45:49):
There's no black. It's Gray's midnight. Silver,

Alex Lindsay (00:45:52):
Midnight. Midnight. So it's dark. Yeah. It's not that dark. No, midnight's fine. It's okay. But

Leo Laporte (00:45:56):
Oh okay. Mid black, black would be great. Like I

Alex Lindsay (00:45:59):
Like I, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:46:00):
I gotta look at how dark midnight is

Andy Ihnatko (00:46:02):
For, for, for, for your military ops of which of which you have plenty. You have a long list of clients.

Leo Laporte (00:46:08):
<Laugh> let's see. Let's look at

Alex Lindsay (00:46:10):
You guys

Leo Laporte (00:46:10):
Streaming. Oh yeah. It is black. That is black. It's

Alex Lindsay (00:46:13):
Pretty dark. It's pretty dark. It's

Leo Laporte (00:46:14):
Not, oh, that's not. Oh, you know what? I would buy, you know what? You just, you convinced me. I just thought I was the, the metallic gray, the slate gray. But no, no that's pretty

Alex Lindsay (00:46:22):
Dark.

Leo Laporte (00:46:23):
It's pretty. It's pretty midnight. Starlight is how it goes. It's kind of a blue, HUD

Alex Lindsay (00:46:27):
Black.

Leo Laporte (00:46:28):
Is

Andy Ihnatko (00:46:28):
It? I mean, this is this, this is, this is black.

Leo Laporte (00:46:32):
Yeah. That's you paid a hundred bucks extra for that. Yeah. This looks pretty good. I I'm, I did not fully appreciate it. This is the midnight. There's the space gray. There's the silver and there's the Starlight. I'm gonna go black.

Alex Lindsay (00:46:46):
I think Apple, Apple, you know, they made a gold watch. They should make a, a, a quote unquote. But instead of, instead of gold for the, for the laptop, they should make Vanta black. It's just like, it's just like, cause, cause the logo would just look like it was like, it would look like there's a black hole in front of you with a logo just floating in front of it.

Leo Laporte (00:47:05):
Stealth. I want a stealth.

Alex Lindsay (00:47:07):
Yeah, stealth.

Andy Ihnatko (00:47:08):
That would be, we'll leave that as an exercise for Mr beast

Leo Laporte (00:47:11):
<Laugh> yeah,

Alex Lindsay (00:47:11):
Exactly.

Leo Laporte (00:47:12):
Fanta black. The, the blackest black, just, just

Andy Ihnatko (00:47:16):
Don't touch it or pick it up or

Leo Laporte (00:47:18):
Move it spinal tap black.

Alex Lindsay (00:47:19):
Yeah. Yeah. There's there's that the black is to you're being so practical. You're

Leo Laporte (00:47:23):
Being so <laugh> okay. I wouldn't, you know, I, okay. Now I'm a little more interested and the I didn't realize it was that dark in midnight. Okay.

Alex Lindsay (00:47:32):
I'm hoping that we see more of those choices. I don't, I don't really need green <laugh> or purple. I

Leo Laporte (00:47:38):
Just, yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:47:39):
As black as it can be.

Leo Laporte (00:47:41):
Let me see if I, if I got that and I maxed everything out, so I got 24 gigs of Ram. I got two terabytes of storage. I got the 67 wat us BBC. Oh no. Oh, they have now this dual port adapter, which was kind of hysterical. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (00:47:56):
If you, if you, if you max it out, you get the really good 65 wat like adapter. Otherwise you get the 35 wat no extra ports. I think.

Leo Laporte (00:48:04):
No, it's there's a now remember we thought Mike and I were kind of stunned by this, this, we thought was gonna be a third party, but Apple's offering you. It's only 35 Watts though.

Andy Ihnatko (00:48:14):
Oh, okay. But right. You get the 65. If you, if

Leo Laporte (00:48:16):
You the five, seven, I respect you could choose. No, you could choose either. Well, maybe cuz I'm higher respect either one. You get to choose. I I'll go. Yeah. Gosh. That's a good,

Alex Lindsay (00:48:25):
I believe,

Leo Laporte (00:48:26):
I believe I have plenty high wat adapters. I don't need the, maybe I'll get the dual one just for fun.

Alex Lindsay (00:48:31):
I, I actually have to say that I don't find the Apple power supplies. No, in general to be competitive anymore. Like I, I wouldn't,

Leo Laporte (00:48:38):
I get plenty of G adapt from all the players and I really like 'em and I'm keep using those. So, so 2,500 bucks maxed out.

Andy Ihnatko (00:48:47):
Wow. For a MacBook air. I it's it's I know, I know that's not an unreasonable amount of money for a machine of that performance and that design, but I will always think of the MacBook air as the wildest amount of money you spend on it. It's 1500 bucks above that. You're in MacBook pro territory.

Alex Lindsay (00:49:02):
Yeah. Well the, the, the one thing is it's important for the marketing teams that a lot of big companies because the marketing teams can't often get pros. So they can't get 'em. They can't get the, because

Leo Laporte (00:49:13):
They're marketing a weird, oh sorry.

Alex Lindsay (00:49:15):
They're marketing. So they can only get the errors. Yeah. So you can't, you can't buy the pros unless you're an engineer or you can't right. Request them. So a loaded air might be a, might be good answer for, for marketing,

Leo Laporte (00:49:27):
Especially bureaucracy.

Andy Ihnatko (00:49:29):
Bureaucracies are historically funny. <Laugh> yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:49:31):
They are funny. They create a lot of odd

Leo Laporte (00:49:33):
Flows. Let's take a little break cuz I really want talk about iPad OS and, and Apple has now made clear after a lot of speculation on our part, what the intent was with the iPad. And it's clear now I think at least it is in my mind. I'll see if it is in yours what they intended to do with the iPad, but first a word from our sponsor. Our show today brought to you by zip recruiter. We have, I don't know how many, three, we have a number of employees. We hired with zip recruiter. It's been really great for us. We love zip recruiter and here it is, summertime and man, the job market is red hot, right? Where do you find people? If you're a business owner, the last thing you wanna do is spend your free time sorting through unqualified candidates.

Leo Laporte (00:50:19):
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Leo Laporte (00:51:13):
And there's one more thing that recruiter does that is fantastic. They find the right candidates for your job. They offer you, they go through all the resumes they have on fault. They take all those resumes. They scan through 'em and they find ones that meet your qualifications. They send 'em to you so you can invite them. And I gotta tell you, when you invite somebody to apply to your job, they, their ears perk up. Their eyes light up. They go, wow, you want me? It's a great way to start a great relationship. Four outta five employers who post on zip recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day for us. It's usually within the first hour. It's amazing. The number one rated hiring site based on G2 satisfaction ratings. As of January, first of this year, zip recruiter, that's a lot of satisfaction, baby. This summer, let zip recruititer do the work so you can enjoy more time by the beach. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/mac break, ziprecruiter.com/m a C B R E a K ZipRecruiter. Thus smartest way to hire. Thank you, ZipRecruiter for supporting M break weekly and my very expensive Macintosh habit. <Laugh> I think you know what? I'm happy with the Mac studio, but you got, I feel like we probably should get right. Mikah. We need to get an M two just to talk about it. Just to review it right? <Laugh>

Mikah Sargent (00:52:34):
Of coursely of course you need to get an an M two

Leo Laporte (00:52:36):
<Affirmative> I think honestly, since you're still using a 16 inch Intel device, maybe you should get, which one would you, if, if now remember we're we're gonna get it for you as your employer. Which one would you, would you get? Would you get the touch bar one with the bigger fan or would you, I think, I sure should get an air. Don't you think?

Mikah Sargent (00:52:56):
I, yeah, because again, this, I just want it to be this secondary portable device.

Leo Laporte (00:53:00):
Yeah. It could be faster, much faster than the 16 Intel.

Mikah Sargent (00:53:04):
Yep.

Leo Laporte (00:53:04):
All right.

Mikah Sargent (00:53:06):
Midnight, midnight MacBook. 

Leo Laporte (00:53:08):
Would you get it midnight from just for me so I can see it?

Mikah Sargent (00:53:10):
Absolutely. Okay. For

Leo Laporte (00:53:12):
You. I know you like, I like you probably might. What do you want? Starlight,

Mikah Sargent (00:53:16):
The plain silver.

Leo Laporte (00:53:17):
<Laugh> just silver. Boring. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (00:53:19):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:53:19):
You can get silver if you want. I'll just have to watch Alex's <laugh> from a distance <laugh> unless Alex, you find somebody that can make it Vanta black.

Alex Lindsay (00:53:32):
I know. I I'm I'm I bet you there's. Somebody's the idea now. I bet you somebody that exactly right. I don't know. I mean, it'd be a horrible waste of money because it would scratch off in like 10 seconds.

Leo Laporte (00:53:40):
Oh, it's just a paint job.

Alex Lindsay (00:53:42):
It's a paint. I mean, if, if I think it would be very hard to get Vanta black too. Cause it's it's the nature of the surface. Yeah, you couldn't. It would be very,

Leo Laporte (00:53:48):
No you want anize. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:53:50):
You'd well, you

Andy Ihnatko (00:53:50):
You'd wanna protect it with some of the polyurethane spray at home Depot. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:53:54):
There you go.

Alex Lindsay (00:53:54):
Make it shiny. And then it would be, it would be shiny, but very it'd be shiny.

Leo Laporte (00:53:58):
Be weird,

Alex Lindsay (00:53:59):
Weird highlights of, of stuff appearing over black <laugh> so

Andy Ihnatko (00:54:03):
If you, if, if you were looking for a practical solution to anything you would be suggesting Vanta black, you just want the flex of saying that. Yes. I got the stupidest, most expensive paint job on a MacBook ever.

Leo Laporte (00:54:14):
So Apple did announce new iOS features. They're gonna be far too much for us to talk about. They took them an hour 48 minutes. There's no way we could do it in two, two hours, especially. So we just spent an hour talking about the then one <laugh>, but so we'll get to as much as we can, but I really think the iPad OS is very interesting. We had heard rumors that were gonna improve the multitasking, but there it's a little different what they're doing. Andy, do you, what, what does this tell you anything about Apple's strategy with the iPad?

Andy Ihnatko (00:54:43):
You know what the rumors about this we heard about stage manager were that, Hey, if you've got a, if you've got a keyboard and a track pad attached to your to your iPad pro you will be able to have overlap in windows for the first time, which sounded like a very, very simple solution to a productivity problem. Instead they gave us a stage manager that is now the combined applica workspace manager, application switcher across the Mac and the iPad. So it, once again, we're getting a, a completely unified experience across both. And I, I haven't, I, I haven't installed the developer beta on my on my iPad, cuz I, I use my iPad every day. I only have one that will, I've got it with with the, did

Leo Laporte (00:55:24):
You, you installed it. Look, he's got it. You

Mikah Sargent (00:55:27):
Wanna see what it looks like?

Leo Laporte (00:55:29):
So, all right. So there, there

Mikah Sargent (00:55:31):
Are two screens.

Leo Laporte (00:55:31):
So a couple of questions now that you, oh, thank you for doing this. Mikah, can you hide the stage?

Mikah Sargent (00:55:38):
Yes, I just, so this is what's interesting about it is you actually have to use control center to turn it on and off. So I, if you want it on you go down, you find a control center, stage manager to turn that off and then you'll see, it goes into split view here. I'll swipe down again. Control center back on, see,

Leo Laporte (00:55:53):
This is the big change for me. My point of view is from tiled windows to overlapping windows mm-hmm <affirmative> but can you drag that overlapping window? Yes you can. Can you click the safari to bring it to the front? Yep.

Mikah Sargent (00:56:06):
To bring it to the, so

Leo Laporte (00:56:07):
It's a windowed operating system. All of a sudden, to me that's a desktop, that's a desktop shift.

Andy Ihnatko (00:56:15):
AB absolutely. I'm I'm really. And also the, the fact that you can have that pin to Mike has a pin to the left, but you can also have it pin to the bottom. I think of the screen. So it's, can I

Leo Laporte (00:56:23):
Get it to the right? Cause I, I, I like, that's

Mikah Sargent (00:56:25):
What I want it too.

Leo Laporte (00:56:26):
You can, maybe you can on the Mac, this is the iPad, but the,

Andy Ihnatko (00:56:29):
But the idea that you, you can drag windows in and out of that shelf and group and ungroup and and essentially try to have the same sort of mojo you got going on with the iPad that I like, which is focus on one app at a time very, very easily, but also easily switch between a different workspace or a different set of tools grouped together. That's really interesting and really powerful even on the Mac, but I, it is, as you say, it is a huge shift from what the iPad was designed to do. Originally. I actually thought that Apple's idea of having a tablet OS a touch OS and how it would manage windows and apps simultaneously compared to windows was a little bit, was a lot more forward thinking instead of just simply having, oh, we'll do this the same way we we've done since the mid 1980s.

Andy Ihnatko (00:57:16):
The idea of saying, no, we will, we're not gonna let you have like four windows open everywhere and overlapping and however you want, but we will make it so easy to place them, to make them in, into a very, very productive workspace, meaning that we're not imagining that you're gonna be using an iPad for something that you we'd be better suited for a notebook. We imagine that what you want to do is have like a, have a, a column of notes and an outliner that you're making notes from, but you also have a PDF document and you're in the main tile or, or a or, or a worksheet or a, or, or, or a webpage that you're making notes from. That's what I really, really like about being productive with the iPad. So I'm really, really keen to see, as soon as the, the public beta comes out, how natural it is to actually use this. I I'm, I'm sure it's gonna help that. I'm, I'll probably be using this on an external display. But which

Leo Laporte (00:58:08):
Is another feature that they've yeah,

Andy Ihnatko (00:58:09):
Exactly. I mean, I've got, I've got, I mean, the, the, I was fiercely making note. Go ahead.

Leo Laporte (00:58:13):
Let me ask mic. Can you, so there's limited to two different windows,

Andy Ihnatko (00:58:18):
Is

Mikah Sargent (00:58:18):
That right? Oh, let me see if I can pull up a

Andy Ihnatko (00:58:20):
Third up up to four windows with no overlap that I've at least that without overlapping on.

Leo Laporte (00:58:25):
So the, so I talked about this yesterday in the early days of computing, there was a debate over, go ahead, show mic screen. Cause that's all I really care about. Not me <laugh>

Andy Ihnatko (00:58:33):
Oh,

Mikah Sargent (00:58:34):
I, yeah, I haven't gotten there yet of

Leo Laporte (00:58:36):
Yeah, so, so there was an debate in the earliest days of windowing, I mean like Xerox park days, whether you should have tiled windows, which is a lot easier for the computer or overlapping windows and, and, you know, overlapping windows kind of one with the original Macintosh and with windows on PCs. But as soon as we went to the iPad, suddenly it was first, it was full screen period or nothing. And then with multitasking, they got tiled windows. This is a big leap into a different world of computing. And really what it tells me is that Apple is, is, has a fork in the road that the, that Apple is now saying we have essentially two desktop operating systems, one for people with touch and one for people with a mouse, one for people who want to get a lot of powerful work done, cuz they added to, to the file manager, they added the files. A lot of kind of, you can rename, you could change extensions. That's a desktop concept that was alien to the iPad until very, very recently. Well

Alex Lindsay (00:59:40):
Fundamentally, I mean, go ahead. I think any, any question that these, these operating systems aren't slowly finding each way or each themselves they're finding their way together. Like, I mean the iOS and Mac, I mean the iPad, but

Leo Laporte (00:59:52):
They'll still be a distinction, right. Cuz one's touch. I don't think they're ever gonna put touch on the Mac. Right?

Alex Lindsay (00:59:56):
Yeah. But I think that, I think that the development of those I, I think that you could end up with two different interfaces, you know, like we think about that when we think about dynamic interfaces where you have an interface, that's touch an interface that is, that is more mouse driven and like you would have, when we build webpages, we have one for mobile, one for desktop, it, it displays itself differently depending on what it's on. So a kind of a responsive interface for the same app, I think could be something that we could see in the future.

Andy Ihnatko (01:00:25):
Well, 1, 1, 1 of the things that I was thinking about was that so we mentioned that it also is that the iPad OS is gonna also be, be supporting external displays for the first time. Meaning not just simply mirroring your, the iPad display to a larger display, but simp actually having a, a second display the way that we we expected to work on the, on the iPad and I'm, I imagined immediately what would happen with universal control. So if I have like a, if I have a two monitors, the identical, my two identical, like Dell favorite monitors on a two arm like pivoting stand and I'm using universal control. And assuming that universal control will work on an iPad, external display given that they're both using, they're both the Mac and the iPad are gonna be using stage manager, both the Mac and the iPad are the third party apps are probably gonna be trying to support Apple's new concept of toolbar. It's gonna be a very, very shared experience. It's gonna be very, very difficult to tell the difference between what I'm gonna be, what, what I'm doing on the, on the Mac versus what I'm doing on the iPad. And that is a signal change between what Apple, what Apple's been doing with the iPad. I think Apples is the very launch of

Leo Laporte (01:01:32):
The messaging and advertising will all point. You remember, what's a computer, right? They'll point you, the, the younger generation that's used to iOS and touch will be now I think just as productive on an iPad as they would be on a desktop, they'll prefer iPad. If you want mobility, if you wanna work in your lap, there'll be a lot of reasons why people will say, oh, no, I don't think there's gonna be at any confusion. I think people old school people will want a Mac. And I think a younger generation, I think your kids, Alex will want an iPad.

Alex Lindsay (01:02:06):
Yeah. My kids are. I mean, they've been ha they've had iPads almost their entire life <laugh> so, so they, they, they are very fast with the iPads. And, and so I think that they will continue down that path. I think that the thing that I have trouble with is, is there's just things that are difficult to do with touch. You know, I think Omni graph is a good example of something that I build wiring diagrams and Omni graphe yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:02:26):
You're

Alex Lindsay (01:02:26):
A desktop on the iPad. Yeah. Well, but I couldn't, I don't, there's nobody, you know, young or old that could build a wiring diagram as fast as I build them in the desktop version on the iPad. Not because it's it's that you're comfortable with one or the other it's that the touch interface just isn't

Leo Laporte (01:02:43):
A mass is better for that,

Alex Lindsay (01:02:45):
For that one thing. Yeah. So there's a handful of things that are gonna be like that, that, that require a a precision that you can't get with your finger. And I think that that's where we're still gonna, you know, ha be problematic maybe, maybe with a pencil, maybe you can get, I think photographers, I would love to draw it out.

Leo Laporte (01:03:00):
Photographers artists will, will gravitate towards touch. Yeah. I think that, you know, for word processing is this is good. Probably not. Oh

Alex Lindsay (01:03:09):
Yeah. I, well, I think iPad, you can word process.

Leo Laporte (01:03:11):
Okay. Yeah, yeah. I guess with a real keyboard and all that. Oh

Alex Lindsay (01:03:14):
Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:03:16):
But also there there's, so there's there's things that are a lot more subtle about that. Like being able to do virtual memory swap in the new iPads so that you'll have, so that as you're, since you're now having 3, 4, 5, whatever, however many apps open at the same time, being able for each one to have 16 gigs of application Ram dedicated to it, that's not just, I think for multitasking that also really enables a higher class of of app. The, I was, I I've been spending the past day trying to figure out exactly what driver kit entails for iPad OS because one of the first things I thought about is, oh, so if Apple doesn't wanna support an external camera for the iPad, can Logitech simply write an iPad driver for their Brio camera. And now suddenly I can have an external camera for it just down.

Andy Ihnatko (01:04:00):
And I, I won't go through the whole list of things that I've been basically something about this, but down, down, down, down, down, just so many things that are trying to make things they're trying to give it parody with a desktop, even when you're, I'm, I'm really excited as a practical measure, all the enhancements they're making to the files app. And I'm slapping myself because I'm, I'm getting giddy about, oh my God, I can actually do a get info on a folder and find out how much you mean I can sort on a column of a, I can sort by size. I can sort by file type, just like I've been able to do on every single computer, literally since like Mac O S 1.04.

Leo Laporte (01:04:35):
I mean, for the longest time we've said, we've looked at the M one Mac iPad pro particularly and said that hardware is amazing, but the software doesn't live up to it. This is a seminal change. I think this really, yeah. Michael, let me ask. So you've been playing with it. How long have you had it? Probably not that long.

Mikah Sargent (01:04:49):
Only since. Yeah. Only since this morning. Yeah. I got,

Leo Laporte (01:04:52):
So I'm sure there are a lot of questions that were, so you were able to open multiple windows. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (01:04:57):
Yeah. Oh yeah. Let me show here. That's the wrong one. Nope. That's not it either. Where's iPad.

Leo Laporte (01:05:03):
He's using E cam there. There we go. Oh, look at that lots of windows. That's

Mikah Sargent (01:05:06):
Four. So I've got, oh my God. Windows open

Leo Laporte (01:05:09):
And weather, by the way. It's kinda cool.

Mikah Sargent (01:05:10):
<Laugh> I didn't realize that while, so we know we can tap on another one to bring that forward. Right. But while I have weather sort of focused, I can still tap and scroll on that before.

Leo Laporte (01:05:22):
Oh, that's nice.

Mikah Sargent (01:05:23):
Even though it's behind. So that's huge. You can tap to bring it forward, but you can still interact with it, even though it's in the background,

Leo Laporte (01:05:29):
That's a very advanced, Linuxy kind of a feature. That's huge. This is, I think, you know, the only thing holding it back really is the size of the screen. And you know, the touch interface means the touch targets have to stay pretty big. So that whole stage on the left there that's big. That takes up a lot of space. I'm not crazy about that. Can you auto hide that maybe on the Mac you'll be able to?

Mikah Sargent (01:05:51):
Yeah. I haven't seen the, the settings for this feature in particular, so I'm not searching the other thing that's

Leo Laporte (01:05:57):
But I hope so. Absolutely huge. And they're talking about this in the swift tracks, I'm sure you'd develop for one platform you're developing for all three iOS iPad OS and Mac OS. Although, interestingly, I understand that the the, the they're still using catalyst for some of their apps instead of doing across platform swift UI app, they're using catalyst for a couple of the new apps. But that,

Andy Ihnatko (01:06:24):
I think that indicates doesn't matter, right? Yeah, exactly. I, I think it, I think it indicates a lot of faith that they have and in how good that tool is. Yeah. They're willing to eat their own dog food only. They don't call it dog food. They're saying, well, they're, they're feeding it to, to consumers as well.

Leo Laporte (01:06:37):
I, you know, I think it's gonna become more and more clear over time that there is a, there are people who are gonna use the iPad and there are people who are gonna use the Mac. And then there are a lot of us who will use both. Right. and if, when you go Omni graphe, you're, you know, out, you're just gonna say, well, let me get my Mac fired up here.

Alex Lindsay (01:06:53):
And to be clear, I would prefer to use the iPad for everything that I could, you know, so I try to use the iPad whenever I can. In fact, I experiment with stuff, even if I have done it on the Mac. Yeah. And again, I, I, I think I've talked about this before. I have a very hybrid is a good example. My, how I develop presentations, I use notes and that can be on their iPad or the computer, or even my phone. I then sketch every slide in for keynote in keynote. Like I just, I'm in the iPad drawing, like, this is what I want this slide to look like. And I go through that, but then I go back to the Mac to build it because the iPad, the touch process, and I have built

Leo Laporte (01:07:30):
Well, continuity makes

Alex Lindsay (01:07:31):
That presentations

Leo Laporte (01:07:32):
Very easy. Doesn't it? Yeah,

Alex Lindsay (01:07:33):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I haven't, I have, I have to admit I've been a little modal in how I do it, but, but I think the continuity would make it a lot easier. What does make it easier is that I'm saving the iCloud. So I just finished what I'm doing on my iPad. I open it up in, in my, on my Mac and, and I'm, and I go back.

Leo Laporte (01:07:46):
That was another huge feature in Monterey that they showed which is if you're using pages, keynote, a number of apps you can collaborate, but you, you know, you'd be collaborating with yourself. Doesn't have to be a second person, but you can have, I do that document open up two different places and changes reflected in both places. And they have a, a, an API for that. I think that benefits the single person as much as it does a team. Yeah. Very, very interesting tomorrow. Thanks to co a R in our discord tomorrow is use Xcode Xcode to develop a multi-platform app. That's the track for tomorrow, learn how you could build apps for multiple Apple platforms using X code 14. We'll show you how to streamline app targets, maintain a common code base and share settings by default. We'll also explore how you can customize your app for each platform through conditional, your settings and code. So you can make it be native depending on the, the platform. Joe says, I'm hoping they don't attempt to turn iPad OS into a pseudo Mac OS. And I think that was one of the, you know, the fears I had right, was that they would either, I was actually maybe a little more afraid they were gonna iPad apply the Mac, but you could also say, I hope they don't magnify the iPad. Right. But this is not that I think they're gonna have two very separate

Alex Lindsay (01:09:03):
I don't know if this be very separate, but I think it is taking what the Mac does and rethinking it. Yes. So you, it's kind of the iPad. Is this a little bit more of a clean slate? The Mac has a lot of right. Technical debt. Right. And so, so the, so this, yeah. And so the, so the thing is, is that the iPad can be something you can go, Hey, this is really necessary on the Mac. This would be great on the iPad and won't add it, but they, they're not they're, they are leaving lots of things behind because those things are again, part of the history, not part of the future.

Andy Ihnatko (01:09:31):
Yeah. There, there, I mean, think about how now they're redoing settings in in Mabu for the first time in probably since Mac was 10 to make it look a lot, <laugh> either eight, depending on, depending on your, your, your sense of history to make it look and work the way that it does on the iPad or the way that it does in Mac west 6.02, you know, having a scrolling list of different pains and panels. And then that's how you get to each individual setting panel, as opposed to here are some icons that honest, honestly, I don't, I only navigate them by doing a search for a spotlight search for the, for the feature or the thing that I want to adjust, because it's hard to navigate visually all these icons much easier simply to have an alphabetical list. I, I really, I really do think that they want to have as much of a if, if they don't ne if the max and the iPads don't necessarily cover the same ground, they want it to, they Apple at least wants to have as, as much of a shared experience as they possibly can.

Andy Ihnatko (01:10:24):
And maybe that answers back to my complaint about, Ooh, I really want Apple to always have like a really good $900 thousand dollars Mac. Maybe their statement is that, well, our thou, what used to be the, the MacBook air is now like the $799 M one iPad.

Mikah Sargent (01:10:41):
Oh, there we go. I was gonna show you, this is the best I can do with what I've got, but that's the new setting screen in Mac O S so the, the icons are off to the side. It looks different. They also redesigned font book and did it up in swift UI, which I'm a little disappointed because I love my font book. And I did font book is

Leo Laporte (01:11:00):
Plain and app, as you could get it's yeah. Just a list of fonts and what they look like, what did, what did they, what could they do to, to make it bad?

Mikah Sargent (01:11:07):
<Laugh> they just be it's because it was so simple, they could rebuild it using swift and swift UI. So they kind of went with that, but yeah, this see this, which by the way, incredibly hot 16 inch

Leo Laporte (01:11:17):
Intel, Mikah, you have my my permission and encouragement to minute those orders go up to order a, any color you want MacBook hair.

Mikah Sargent (01:11:27):
I felt comfortable installing the beta on here.

Leo Laporte (01:11:29):
Yeah. Right. That'll be your beta machine. Yeah. That'd be your beta machine. I just, I feel like there are a couple of, there were a couple of moments in the, in this yesterday where Apple announced and probably to little applause, some life changing things, this iPad OS is one of them. The other one is pass key. Yes. So Steve Gibson talked about pass key. This is something, an initiative from Google, Microsoft, and now very much Apple to eliminate passwords. And I think that in a few years, you're gonna look back on passwords and say,

Alex Lindsay (01:12:09):
I

Leo Laporte (01:12:10):
<Laugh>. That

Alex Lindsay (01:12:11):
Was a, I think a lot of us have been trying to get past it and pass the PA key and I, and I think, or pass the password. And I think that was probably the most important announcement, huge LA yesterday. Huge. Yeah. Was the fact that we're gonna get to a point where we're building it into the infrastructure that, that, and, and I think it's gonna be transformed, be transform transformational to the whole world because as people start to get out of that and start, and because it's being supported by a lot of other people it, it could potentially be a really

Leo Laporte (01:12:36):
Big deal. Well, and it's almost down on the biometrics that Apple is now basically putting everywhere. And I expect to see biometric keyboards for the desktops as well, because now using biometrics face ID or touch ID, you can have an absolutely fishing proof login to apps and, and websites, and you don't need a password. You don't need a password manager. That's gonna be very, very

Alex Lindsay (01:12:59):
Big. The, the thing that, that is really important though, is that Apple is pairing that up with other privacy initiatives, because the, the, the real thing now is that we will know who you are and we have to protect what that means. That's right. In a bigger, in a bigger, and because we, we will absolutely know that you're on that computer and it's you interacting, and that's gonna be a, that's a, that's a, it's a tricky problem is that you know, people have been able to say, well, I don't know if that was me or not. You won't be able to say that anymore. <Laugh>. And so, and so that there

Leo Laporte (01:13:27):
Are

Alex Lindsay (01:13:28):
<Laugh>. No, no, I, no, I think it's great. No, I think that that

Leo Laporte (01:13:30):
Might be a big improvement. You've been the one arguing to eliminate anonymity online.

Alex Lindsay (01:13:34):
Yeah. I, I don't, I think that, I think that it's great. It's gonna change the way we interact with people, but there are people that it puts in danger that, that need to be able to be, you know, so we just have to kind of weigh that out. And I think that the, the, the company that is probably the most ahead of that is Apple thinking about how are we gonna keep us private even though, but authenticated

Leo Laporte (01:13:53):
Well, and I think that's also why they announced, what was it, safe, safe kit, or what are the personal they safety check safety check. Yeah. And I saw a number of women, quite a few women on Twitter saying, this is, you don't even understand how important this is. Yeah. This is huge for domestic violence victims for partners of crazy people. <Laugh> for people who want to, you know, separate their identity. And, and I think it maybe goes hand in hand with Pasky. In other words, if you're gonna have Pasky you need safety check Apple pays attention to this stuff. God bless them. And of course they learned their lesson with their tags. And I think that also heightened their awareness, you know? Yeah. Anything else we wanna say about iPad OS weather <laugh>

Andy Ihnatko (01:14:40):
We're so, okay. We we're such Apple people. Oh my God. Thank God. Well, thank you, Apple. You gave us a weather F they led

Leo Laporte (01:14:46):
With that. They

Andy Ihnatko (01:14:47):
Knew, we knew, we know that we know that a built in calculator app is way too much to ask, but we're so thrilled. We get to know what the weather is. And actually there, there was, there was one thing that I wanted to ask Alex about that. What do, what do you think about reference mode on the iPad?

Leo Laporte (01:15:05):
What is reference

Alex Lindsay (01:15:06):
Mode? Once I see it, I'm super excited about it. It was really excited. So reference mode is the idea that it, one of the things that when we're trying to work on a project you know, that we used to joke that NTSC meant never the same color of color, you know? And, and so you, you don't know like a lot of times I use my iPhone, literally I turn off whatever my, you know, yell, you know, I warm, I have a warm view on my iPhone all the time, but if I don't do that, I turn it off. And I look at a live stream and I consider most of the time that is the most accurate view I have of, of the color <laugh>, you know, like of how the color looks, because Apple spends so much time on it, but having a reference mode that says, we're gonna turn off everything else, we're gonna not make any corrections.

Alex Lindsay (01:15:50):
This is a very accurate, and for them to call it reference mode, I feel like they're putting a lot of effort into it. So that if I look at those colors, the real, that is incredible. If you're sending out an iPad, I mean, it makes for an ad agency for a production company, it makes these iPads almost required issue. Interesting, because, because now I can send you something and you go into reference mode and you look at it and you say, okay, that I want that yellow to be 2% less green or, or whatever that is. They can make those adjustments. And we can, and we have a single point of the truth. And theoretically, if everybody's in reference mode and they're getting the same signal, it just means that they all have colors that agree on. They can have those, those conversations. It's a huge problem. Like we have reference monitors that we don't trust because though what, you know, what is the et,

Leo Laporte (01:16:35):
Is it a big deal? They're putting liquid retina on the MacBook air. Is that important? I think too,

Alex Lindsay (01:16:42):
It it's somewhat the Mac MacBook error. I mean, the display is fine. It's not, you know, like it's,

Leo Laporte (01:16:49):
Well, that's what I'm saying. It's putting up a good, that much better display now though, they're putting liquid retina on it.

Alex Lindsay (01:16:53):
Yeah, sure. I mean, like, it's, it's, again, I would actually trust the iPad in reference mode more than, you know, it's something it's, it's being able to say, I trust this to be accurate. Now it's not gonna be a hundred percent accurate. There's, you know, you can get these much more expensive, you know, 10,000, $20,000 monitors that we pay attention to our colorists use. But I can't afford that. So I need something that I can look at. And I think that this being outboard, like having a, an iPad that I look over at, and I send something out from resolve, or send something out from final cut and look at it and go, okay, is, am I happy with those colors? And I, I have a a fairly good idea that I'm pretty close to a, to a good source of the truth, I think is important. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:17:36):
Mikah has prediction has pulled up the privacy and the security pitch. Go ahead,

Mikah Sargent (01:17:40):
Mikah. Yeah. So here's the prediction that I'd like to make. I think this is very interesting. It wasn't covered on stage, but it was something that flew by at the platform state of the union. If you go on the beta privacy and security and you scroll all the way down, there's a new thing under security called developer mode. And I wanna read the text before I make my prediction. It says, if you're developing apps for Apple products, developer mode allows you to use features that are required for app development. When developer mode is turned on, your device, security will be reduced. This

Leo Laporte (01:18:07):
Is on the iPad.

Mikah Sargent (01:18:08):
My prediction, this is on the iPad. It'll be on the iPhone as well. This is an iOS iPad OS feature that lets developers right now, install their apps and do tests. I think this is laying the groundwork for a future in which Apple is forced to allow side loading. Yeah. This is like an in case we need to do this. Nice. We have this now switched toggle.

Leo Laporte (01:18:28):
I instead of test flight you can kind of turn on this low security mode and side load apps. Yeah. I think you're right. I think this is them putting that in there. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:18:37):
Like the way Android does it, where it's there, you have to look for it. You have to dig for it. Yeah. But

Leo Laporte (01:18:42):
They

Mikah Sargent (01:18:43):
Button 10 times or,

Andy Ihnatko (01:18:45):
But the assumption is that if you know, to look for it, then clearly you, you are at least on your way to understanding that you're taking a risk and you're doing something outside the norm. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:18:52):
That's interesting.

Andy Ihnatko (01:18:53):
That's, that's an interesting,

Leo Laporte (01:18:53):
Good catch. Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting catch. I probably shouldn't downplay the importance of the changes to messages. Either as Google continues to stumble <laugh> with the Android messaging, Apple has just getting better and better. Now they have editing in messages. They also have fif you can edit any message within 15 minutes. You can pull back a message within 15 minutes. So you can, unsend they're also much improving dictation. The keyboard will stay up. You'll be able to edit your dictation as you go. I think this is maybe also gonna be a life changing improvement.

Alex Lindsay (01:19:31):
I think it is. I, I think that the, I think this is also is one of the reasons that Apple wouldn't be able to integrate with another message system. Cause you probably can't do that a screen bubble. Yeah. Cause the ones that's gone, it's gone. Yeah. So with messages that interaction between it would have to be their own servers to right. To be able to execute that

Leo Laporte (01:19:47):
Share, play via messages, collaborating via messages. This is very, you know, this is, this is that thing Apple does so well. That's, it's great for users. It's also great for the business cuz it really locks you into the ecosystem.

Alex Lindsay (01:20:01):
Well, and, and also if someone says, well, you should just interact with the Apple's like, well, we've got a lot of things that we can't, we can't do it. We

Leo Laporte (01:20:06):
Couldn't couldn't we could turn off all those great features I guess,

Alex Lindsay (01:20:09):
But

Andy Ihnatko (01:20:09):
To, but, but to be fair, you could simply enable the features that you can cross communicate with and just simply reserve the ones.

Leo Laporte (01:20:16):
Well, they do, you can't, you that's, you got a text message bubble, right? You got the SMS bubble. <Laugh> good luck to you.

Andy Ihnatko (01:20:22):
We I'm I'm sorry. We can't, we can't do C if texts or non monospace text with best time mess it's our hands are just tied.

Alex Lindsay (01:20:30):
<Laugh> I, I, I, I, I I, I do think that when I looked at the photo sharing, you know, they, they, they showed the new photo sharing where you can have these shared, shared photo libraries and I can already see there's there's like two holdouts in my family that, that don't have app iPhones that are gonna get a lot of work.

Leo Laporte (01:20:46):
We're all going, we're sharing. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (01:20:47):
We're sharing this whole, this whole library. It's gonna be great except for you two

Leo Laporte (01:20:51):
<Laugh>. Well, and you're gonna sell a lot of iPhones because Apple has said that iOS 16 will only be available on iPhone eights and later if you have an an iPad, that's not a pro a lot of the pro feature, a lot of the new features will be, will require a pro. Although you will be able to do external to display support on an iPad air as well, but not the least expensive iPad, nothing.

Andy Ihnatko (01:21:16):
A lot of people are pretty salty about all the features that are M one iPad pro exclusive instead of just like two years ago.

Leo Laporte (01:21:24):
Will you live in reference mode, Alex, or will you go back and forth?

Alex Lindsay (01:21:29):
No, I'm probably not living it. I actually keep my, my monitors really warm cuz I feel like if I, if I leave my, my, if I leave everything regular white, by the end of the day, I feel like someone's drilled shot. Like literally I've been looking into the sun. Yeah. And so I, I have a tendency, my, my phone is usually turned down to low, less than half and it's warm. Because it just bothers me a lot less. And so, so I think that I probably keep that way and most of my monitors are very, so then when I want to do something with color, I flip them, you know, to a, to a more neutral state. So I can definitely see myself going back and forth.

Leo Laporte (01:22:02):
Mike, if you,

Mikah Sargent (01:22:02):
I dunno if they'll change. Go ahead. Oh, I was gonna say, I don't know if they'll change this in the future, but right now when you turn on reference mode, it does this really frightening flash of the screen. That's sort of severe before it changes. And it made me a little bit like, oh, should I even be doing this? It says if you do this, it will affect battery life. And then there's fine tuned calibrations. So you'll see here measured versus target calibration points. I don't know how any of it works obviously, but it's

Leo Laporte (01:22:30):
Not

Mikah Sargent (01:22:30):
For us to toggle there. That

Leo Laporte (01:22:31):
Is not for you and me. That is for others.

Andy Ihnatko (01:22:33):
Do, do you think that may, do you think that maybe that's because of the display technology where if they really are serious about reference mode, they have to set each pixel to the same state or the same electric electrical state before.

Mikah Sargent (01:22:43):
Oh, so has to, that makes sense. I mean, there's also makes sense to me what you're saying. Can

Leo Laporte (01:22:48):
You play with it? I don't know if you have the display scaling mode, which answers my issue with running outta real estate. I don't understand quite how that works, but the idea is increasing the pixel density display. In other words, turning up the resolution, you can see more.

Mikah Sargent (01:23:04):
Oh, here it is. So there are three options, zoomed and standard, which we've always had now there's an option called more space. So I'll set that. Oh, it's just use more space. Oh, they have to restart the iPad. So that's gonna go into

Leo Laporte (01:23:17):
Moment. Oh yeah, yeah. Scroll. So you could, okay, so it's just another scaling. It's just another scaling setting. Really. It's not like I have infinite. I can go. There's no slider. It's

Mikah Sargent (01:23:28):
Yeah. It's not

Leo Laporte (01:23:29):
Slider. So I'm trying to is the native resolution of the iPad significantly more than what it's actually using? It must be, it must be said at a doubled resolution.

Mikah Sargent (01:23:39):
Yeah. I wish that I could show you quickly a swap between the two, but this is the new more resolution mode. 

Leo Laporte (01:23:46):
Oh, it looks, yeah, yeah,

Mikah Sargent (01:23:47):
Yeah. There's there's a little bit more room. These three were stacked next to each other and there was no room on the right side for more so it's not hugely

Leo Laporte (01:23:54):
A little bit more, more, but if you do use a multi window situ situation like that, you probably wanna stay in that.

Mikah Sargent (01:24:01):
Yeah. If you're in stage manager a lot.

Leo Laporte (01:24:02):
Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:24:04):
I, I, I saw another user who had the beta say that the, the maximum number of non overlapping windows, so you could fit in his iPad were four, four. So like four, like iPhone with it doesn't look pretty. I I've, I hate to, I hate to imagine a world in which I would wish to own to, to buy a third party window manager for the iPad. But honestly, that's one of the things I've been asking. I've been really hoping for, for a long time that sometimes on the iPad, I really do want to have like two, not just half a half of an iPad display half an iPad display. I kind of want like just two, like iPhone columns and then the rest of it be the, the piece that I'm working on. Cause I want, I wanna keep an eye on a Twitter flag and I also wanted to keep an eye on my inbox.

Leo Laporte (01:24:48):
I figured you probably played with the Henry and Mitsy mode a little bit too. Mikah, the ability to pop

Mikah Sargent (01:24:54):
Your pets out, pull things out. Yes. it, I was actually surprised at the, the quality of it because I thought that it was gonna be pretty you know, that the, the corners would be blurred. It'd be a little weird, but it I was actually pretty impressed. So I did it with this morning on Iowas today. We did it with some pets and we also did it with, I had a photo that was mostly just a coffee mug and I was able to take and pull out the coffee mug. I'll I'll find,

Leo Laporte (01:25:21):
It looks like you could turn a pet into a sticker in effect. You could, you could lift the subject from the background, paste it in messages, and now you have a Mitzi sticker.

Mikah Sargent (01:25:30):
So they don't actually. So that's what it did seem like at first that they were stickers, but they are just photos.

Leo Laporte (01:25:35):
They just photos that you without a background. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So

Mikah Sargent (01:25:39):
Lemme show you.

Leo Laporte (01:25:39):
Yeah, good. I'd love. See it real quick.

Mikah Sargent (01:25:41):
Yeah. Just on this. So this is the, the mug and if I just tap and hold on the mug where there's not text, it's important to not do a part where there's text, because if you do, then it's gonna do the auto text selection, but also select a portion of the mug and then move it, look at that. And now you'll see, I've got this little mug that I could then swipe over and drop into messages and okay. That's

Leo Laporte (01:25:59):
Pretty cool. That's pretty

Mikah Sargent (01:26:00):
Amazing. That was that fast. Yeah. I just held down and moved

Leo Laporte (01:26:04):
And that's not a heterogeneous. You're not on a green screen. You've got a very complicated back background. That's the Alex, you think that's the depth in the image? Will it work better with 

Alex Lindsay (01:26:15):
Depth? A lot of Adobe's been doing a lot of work here and a lot of other folks have been doing a lot of work here. So it's probably, it's, it's a lot of machine learning. Yeah. <Laugh>, that's there and it's trained and it's looking for things that it is looking for hard edges. It's looking, you know, I I'd love to see that in a more, you know, like fluffy hair kind of thing as far as those movie go. So that's, that's, it's a little bit harder to do that calculation, but not impossible. Adobe's been doing that for maybe five years. Right. so I mean, they've showed it for a decade of, of them doing different levels of it. And so, so I think

Leo Laporte (01:26:46):
That it's magic eraser, it's edge detection, it's clipping,

Alex Lindsay (01:26:49):
It's all,

Leo Laporte (01:26:49):
All sorts of those features. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (01:26:50):
But what's different is, is that Apple has the hardware. And so what Apple's I think doing is using and I would guess PO potentially the neural engine to, to do right. Some of those things where it's, it's really smartly grabbing, grabbing that. And it can, there's no reason for it to take any time if it's got dedicated processing

Leo Laporte (01:27:07):
To me. It's interesting. You mentioned Mikah. You could, if you clicked on the text, it would then bake that live text.

Mikah Sargent (01:27:13):
Yep. It will. If it highlight that text, here's okay. Here's

Leo Laporte (01:27:16):
Cut and paste it and, and so forth. That's really. And they showed it of course. Cuz it's developers, how often you've watched a YouTube video with a code in it. You can cut the code, cut and paste the code. Oh look, that's a hard one. What is

Mikah Sargent (01:27:27):
That? Yeah. So this, this is a a Highland cow that I CRO shade for someone for Christmas. And so it's got some fibers and things up in the top corners and the one thing that it gets wrong here, which is understandable because there's a plant in the way. You'll notice that when I pull on this, it

Leo Laporte (01:27:43):
Gets cut off by the the leaf.

Mikah Sargent (01:27:46):
Yeah, it does get well now I've got we,

Alex Lindsay (01:27:48):
This isn't made, we expected to completely rebuild rebuild. It's only in beta, but the real one, of course we expect to completely rebuild that yard. I'm just kidding.

Mikah Sargent (01:27:56):
<Laugh> yeah, exactly. Very hard. So, but it does a very good job.

Leo Laporte (01:27:58):
It's pretty impressive of taking,

Mikah Sargent (01:28:00):
See edge

Leo Laporte (01:28:01):
What's there. Yeah. You have to put it on some white and the let's go to

Mikah Sargent (01:28:04):
Yeah, I'll do that. I'm just trying to be mindful of people's privacy while doing this. So <laugh>

Alex Lindsay (01:28:09):
I know I was gonna show how we did the, you know, the cover art for, for our show yesterday and with emojis and I realized that I have to be in message. We, and then I had all these messages. Yeah. You

Leo Laporte (01:28:22):
Can't

Mikah Sargent (01:28:23):
Right. Messages on iPad is bad because it'll show everyone else's messages. So that's

Leo Laporte (01:28:27):
Pretty good. There's a few errors up in the upper, right? Yeah. That's

Mikah Sargent (01:28:30):
Not super to do it that quickly is very impressive. I mean, especially look around the, the tongue here.

Leo Laporte (01:28:36):
It got all that's good enough fibers. That's good enough. Holy cow.

Alex Lindsay (01:28:41):
That's really good. Wow.

Mikah Sargent (01:28:42):
And also it's a good starting point. I could then take that into an app and pull off my Apple pencil and start. Yeah. But they

Leo Laporte (01:28:47):
Know do that. They know that this is just

Mikah Sargent (01:28:49):
Free. Exactly. It's

Leo Laporte (01:28:50):
Not to, to, to do, you know, cut out the back, cut out the ex-boyfriend or whatever in tips <laugh>.

Mikah Sargent (01:28:55):
Yeah, exactly.

Leo Laporte (01:28:56):
But, but in the, if that were featuring the photos app, you could just put a slider to say be a little bit more

Andy Ihnatko (01:29:00):
Aggressive, be less aggressive. Right, right. That's that's, it's such a big deal

Leo Laporte (01:29:04):
That yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:29:05):
Yeah. I, I, one of the, one of the other things I loved about about the keynote and in, in the sense that this is why I have like a whole other like subhead in my Omni Outlander doc is about here is all the, here's all the things that are kind of cool about what Google does that they are now saying. That's a good idea. Let's do that. Let's do that. Wouldn't be too hard for us to do that. Let's do it ourselves. And, or let's do something that historically people thought that, well only, only Google has a really great map app. Only Google does really good document trans document collaboration or really good translate. Or if the Google lends, that's really cool. Let's show that we can actually do that too. And so why would you use the Google version of it when ours is so much more private?

Leo Laporte (01:29:45):
I wanna take a little break. I wanna come back. Apple did do something else that I thought was interesting. They announced a new app and it's unclear exactly what the intent is, but I'd love to get, I think it's deeper than it looks, but we'll find out with our esteemed panel mic Sergeant Andy Anaco Alex Lindsay Rene is of course on assignment somewhere deep within the confines of the Apple campus.

Mikah Sargent (01:30:09):
I got to see him briefly yesterday and he's very okay. So he's, he's still alive.

Andy Ihnatko (01:30:15):
Got liveable. The Beck skull, you

Mikah Sargent (01:30:18):
Guys in person. I drove down after we finished our event and I got done with some stuff, just so I, cuz I knew that there were gonna be a few folks there that I knew. Did you

Leo Laporte (01:30:26):
Have to like stand outside the gate and say I'm out here,

Mikah Sargent (01:30:30):
But basically that's pretty much what I had to do for Rene, other people I was able to see, but he was very, very busy and so I got to, you know, give him a little pat out the shoulder and say hi and then, oh good.

Leo Laporte (01:30:41):
So he's having fun. I bet.

Mikah Sargent (01:30:43):
Yeah. He

Leo Laporte (01:30:43):
Seems to be he's he's in hog heaven as they say. Well good. Well, I, I know we'll have a lot more to talk about next week when Rene comes back, he's getting all those briefings. Right now our show today brought to you by blue land I have in my life and I think I'm not alone in this. I hope I'm not alone. Been trying to get rid of single use plastics, you know, plastic bags, plastic bottles. I even shave old school now with a metal razor plate that I can take out of the metal handle and put in a little tin. This is something that I found that has really changed our lives at home and it's called blue land. And it's an answer to a big problem. Did you know that more than 5 billion, PLA 5 billion with it be plastic, hand soap and cleaning bottles are thrown away every year and they land in the landfill and they will never go away.

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Alex Lindsay (01:36:19):
I have to admit we kind of a throwaway glossed over it. Oh, I think we just saw it and we were like, okay, we can draw on it. I mean, I, I, oops, sorry.

Leo Laporte (01:36:26):
I feel like it's more than a whiteboard. I feel like it's almost like Google wave. Yeah, potentially. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (01:36:30):
It's yeah. I mean, I think that it's it. It's interesting. I think that until we play with it, right, it's it, it's hard to tell how well it will work.

Andy Ihnatko (01:36:38):
Yeah. I, I, I thought it's significant that it's also an iPad app. So I don't know whether they're just simply trying to beef up the beef up Mac S and Apple zone built in apps as a productivity suite as a way to buttres against the power of of the Google suite this, or they could have just simply said, just like the notes app, this is something cool that we can do that someone, someone did a head start on and we liked it enough to decide that let's just roll it into the OS. But, and this is, this is the sort of beard stroking. I do like three hours after I've been doing nothing but thinking about the keynote and what the things I thought might happen didn't happen. But it seems as though it's in, it's in line with a lot of things that I was perceiving that it is, if you think about it as a shared space with people where people come in and exchange things and collaborate, is this a distant early warning symbol of what we're gonna be seeing them do with the AR headset that there was given that sharing is now not just simply a feature that they've, that they've done with to achieve parody for productivity apps, but there is a sharing API.

Andy Ihnatko (01:37:43):
There is a collaboration, collaboration. Yeah, yeah. Okay. That maybe this is the, maybe the, I, I could imagine this being like the precursor to a framework that basically says that anytime you want to have a shared space where people are coming in and participating virtually and manipulating the same objects here is the starters of the framework you're gonna be using to, to do that. It, it's not hard to imagine something like that. I, I, I wouldn't make that a, a prediction of any kind, but given that we're all thinking about AR at the moment that it's hard not to think about that so soon be before the end of the year or January, which is when we're expecting to see

Alex Lindsay (01:38:17):
Hardware. And I really expect, I really am, you know, you're watching this very slow lumbering approach to, to the AR solution that it definitely could be part of that. And I think that that's the what's Apple, Apple's doing that. A lot of companies just don't have the time, you know, to do and don't have the money to do is to not be in a rush to make sure they get it out right. And to build an entire ecosystem around it so that when you turn it on, it's like, oh, and then we're adding this. And now all everything makes sense. You know? And, and I think that that's a, a level of, I mean, I think Apple probably started working on this headset 10 years ago. <Laugh>, you know, like it's, it's not, you know, and, and it's you know, if, if it, if it, you know, and so I think that that's a, it's a very slow lumbering process to build the entire ecosystem out, not just build it and hope they come.

Leo Laporte (01:39:04):
Yeah. I think it's interesting. I didn't thought about the AR thing. I just, to me, why write something that already exists, unless this is gonna be a piece to a, a piece of a larger puzzle and maybe AR is part of it. Apple did a lot of things about collaboration that I thought was interesting. This reminds me of notion, which you and I Mikah have used. They didn't say whether it's persistent, but I assume it's a persistent space that all the participants can come and go and it'll live on. So if you're planning a trip to, you know, with somebody I'd use notion for that, and then I create a document that Lisa can see with all the information in it that she needs. I just feel like, and, and Microsoft, by the way, is, is, has announced something similar called loop. And, and the reason Microsoft's doing it is because they can put components from all of their apps in it, an Excel spreadsheet, or a word document or, and much more there's a developer API. I feel like there is something brewing here in the, in the collaborative space, maybe the VR space, you know, imagine if instead of white, you had nothing and you were wearing this and these things were floating in your vision, you know that would be kind of interesting.

Andy Ihnatko (01:40:18):
Imagine that being a 3d space instead of a 2d space.

Leo Laporte (01:40:20):
Yeah. I don't know. It's just puzzling to me that they would, and you're right. Andy might just, somebody had written it and said, oh yeah, we can release that too. It will come on Mac iPad, OS and iOS. So that's interesting. It's

Andy Ihnatko (01:40:34):
It is just that there was, so that was such a, a, a recurring theme throughout the presentation. Just collaboration everywhere. Yeah. And not even just as, Hey, we wired up this feature so that pages could work with work with groups. It's like, no, here is an API. So that even if a third party developer wants to make a collaborative app, they don't have to roll their own solution. They can just use our own APIs. It's

Leo Laporte (01:40:55):
Well, and it's good for

Andy Ihnatko (01:40:56):
Business. It stuck out

Leo Laporte (01:40:57):
Cause it uses messages. It uses FaceTime, right? I mean, it uses all the technologies. So anyway, I, maybe I'm making more of it than it deserves. I just, I

Andy Ihnatko (01:41:05):
Spirit stroking, but that's what, that's what we do. That's what we do the, for the 24 to 48 hours after after keynote

Leo Laporte (01:41:14):
I O S 16, any big Mikah, you and Rosemary probably are excited about shortcuts and enhanced shortcut features.

Mikah Sargent (01:41:23):
Yeah. Rosemary in particular, obviously one of the things that they've done in shortcuts is that that little remove background thing is a shortcut feature. So you can actually set up a shortcut where you can feed it a bunch of photos and say, take the background out of all of those. And then you get the photos back with just the subject. That's at the front there, honestly it would take us hours to go through all

Leo Laporte (01:41:44):
Of the different, so much lock screen was a thing they launch, they, they started with that's and that also uses the cutout feature because the, for instance, the numbers and the clock are behind your head. Yeah. Or behind the Joshua tree or whatever. And then, you know, this is it's funny because this is a feature that Google had in Android and took out this is, is this lock screen, all these widgets, all of this live stuff, but it really also, and we're, so some people will analyze the code of iOS 16, see this in the code, supports a feature that is rumored to be coming with the next iPhone, which is an always on lock screen. So now you might have an always on display on your phone that has all sorts of information in there. That's kind of interesting.

Andy Ihnatko (01:42:30):
I

Mikah Sargent (01:42:30):
Thought that on my pixel, oh,

Andy Ihnatko (01:42:32):
Go ahead. I'm just gonna, I think, I think we're about to say the same thing. Imagine basically having a smart display, that's just in your pocket, the time that you don't, you don't actually have to wake it. You don't actually have to fire up an app to get the information that you want. Imagine like an Apple watch complication thing where you can just pick out your phone, like a pocket, watch, check it, then put it back in your pocket, the way the watch. I really, I really think that's gonna be big

Leo Laporte (01:42:53):
The way the watch makes that work is by slowing down to one hurts, like really slowing the display down the iPhone. Can't currently do that, but that is thought to be variable refresh feature of I iPhone 14. Go ahead, Mikah.

Mikah Sargent (01:43:06):
I was just gonna say, well, two things, one, I have been comparing this new lock screen feature two, just basically they took what you could do on an Apple watch and blew it up. And so it's just like having an Apple watch on your home screen. Yeah, yeah. Which is very cool. And now they've, they've combined those technologies. So a person who designs a developer who designs a widget slash complication, those now fall in the same kind of code base. So it's very easy to have them for both the Apple watch and the iPhone which again, makes more developers more likely to add those complications, those widgets, to be able to access across devices. I think the one thing that I'm curious, I mean, Apple's done a pretty good job on the Apple watch with having the always on screen and the battery life being good, but when it comes to the pixel I've noticed that it does impact the battery, which makes sense to have an always on screen. Obviously, if the screen is always odd that there will be some impact to battery. I'm curious what Apple will do in that give and take to try and maintain as much battery life as possible.

Alex Lindsay (01:44:08):
The only, the only thing I'll say about that is that the number one thing that affected my battery was Facebook.

Leo Laporte (01:44:14):
<Laugh> like

Alex Lindsay (01:44:14):
Literally, literally it was, oh yeah. So, so I, I still, I still go on Facebook you know, from my desktop, but I do not have it on, I don't have, I don't have that Instagram, anything that is a cuz there's just so much whatever it's doing, there is so much

Leo Laporte (01:44:28):
What it's doing. <Laugh>

Alex Lindsay (01:44:29):
But, but, but I I'm amazed.

Leo Laporte (01:44:31):
It's constantly telling Meow what you're up

Alex Lindsay (01:44:32):
To, you know, like, like right now I, I, you know, I get up at, I dunno, four o'clock in the morning, four 30 in the morning and I took it off the charger. Like that's the last time it saw charging and it's now one o'clock in the afternoon and I've used 10%. Yeah. On my, on my phone. And I've been using it on and off all all morning, you know, it's it's it's so anyway, I, I, I just think that it's it may impact the battery, but there's a lot of things that impact the battery on your phone.

Leo Laporte (01:44:58):
Right. Audible

Mikah Sargent (01:45:00):
Is the biggest impact to my battery.

Leo Laporte (01:45:01):
Yeah. Cuz you listen all the time. Me too. I love the idea that having widgets that are live they showed a map. For instance, as you're navigating, you don't have to turn your phone on. It's always there, right? If you're, if you're waiting for a delivery, you could see a timeline or, you know, I mean, I could see a lot of stuff happening with this lock screen. It's one of those features that users are gonna have to put some work into like, like focus, which means 99% of users won't do a thing with it. But for those who really care, you'll have a lot more functionality.

Andy Ihnatko (01:45:35):
Yeah. It's a, it, it, I wonder how Apple is gonna sort of figure that in with their usual dogma, which is that we, we are, so we are so committed to making sure that our users have a good time with our products, that we are not going to allow them to have a bad time with our products. <Laugh> meaning that if they, if they were, if they were able to say that, well, this will cost you 10% of your battery life, but so we're not gonna let you even like, make that swap, make that choice if you wanna make it.

Leo Laporte (01:46:02):
Anything else in iOS that we should talk about mail and safari updated a little bit, you know, some somebody was saying it's the biggest update to mail ever. I don't know. I don't use mail. I can't.

Andy Ihnatko (01:46:13):
I mean, it's, it's nice. It's, it's nice to have stuff that I've had. It's

Leo Laporte (01:46:16):
Every

Andy Ihnatko (01:46:17):
Other of those things work. Yeah. Yeah. Like being able to, being able to basically, if you, if you send an email, but you have like a certain countdown time or to say, actually, please unsend that some editing features that sort of stuff. It's, it's nice. I mean, there's a, there's a reason why I don't use the mail.app as my mail app because it's just not as muscular as pretty much anything else out there. So anytime that they give you better features, that's, that's a nice thing. Not, not to be poo pooed, but it's definitely, you, you, you realize that you're, you're like the third guest on the on the tonight show or on the Letterman show and Robin Williams is guest number one, you know that you're on, you're ready to go on stage at the keynote, but you're probably gonna get bumped if you're there to talk about new features in mail.

Mikah Sargent (01:46:57):
I just remembered something. Yes. I, so firstly, one of the things is that a lot of the features that we've talked about that are the big ones are multiplatform features. Yes. And so we've covered a lot of that stuff. That's right. Anyways, but one that I actually learned yesterday on my trip down south. But I didn't realize that this was the case you now can. So you remember iCloud plus, right? The, the feature set that gave you the ability to turn on the, the device tracking protections, right. That are sort of next level. It also gives you the ability to create masks, emails where they will generate kind of a fake email for you so that you don't get that spam or that you can kind of monitor what's what's ending up selling your information. Well now, right within the settings, when you go into iCloud, plus you can actually buy domains to set up your own custom.

Mikah Sargent (01:47:53):
Yes. They're using cloud flare for this cloud flare just became a registrar, not too long ago. I think within the, like the past three or four months and Apple is doing the, the management right there. So you can use your Apple account to actually purchase the domain and set up your own private email that does that hide my hide, my email setting. So I thought that was a really interesting thing that was very, very buried. But just sort of being able to be right in those settings and make a purchase of a custom domain without having to go, you know, elsewhere was kind of an interesting

Leo Laporte (01:48:26):
Thing. Yeah. app you've always said Alex, that Apple should get into financial services and they snuck a little thing in there that actually puts them into an interesting position with financial services, Apple pay later there are basically financing purchases and not just for Apple products, but for a lot of people, they said, Shopify will be the first company to use this. This is buy and out pay later.

Alex Lindsay (01:48:52):
Wait, they had to figure out something to do with all that cash <laugh> we'll lend, we'll lend it out. You know, I, you know, I think that I, I don't know if they're using an external finance, but because they're, they're not charging any interest, I don't know what what an external group would want to do with it. So it does feel like they're using their own cash to, to back it up. Yeah. so yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:49:15):
A us only in probably forever because of banking regulations around the world and how complicated those are, it

Alex Lindsay (01:49:22):
Does feel like they just keep getting closer to being a bank. Yeah. <laugh> yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:49:28):
Yeah. I mean, I, this is not something that, I mean, consumers get this from a lot of places. It's not something that people are saying, well, Apple, they has to have it, but it sure promotes the use of Apple pay by a lot of merchants who don't have these features. Right.

Alex Lindsay (01:49:42):
I mean, I think the big, the big thing is for Apple is it's not so much that whether it's available somewhere else, it's just that a lot of Apple users want it to be available inside of their little cocoon. Right. Apple doesn't even have to do it as well. It has to do 80% as good as everybody else, as long as it's inside the ecosystem. And they don't have to think about it. A lot of Apple users will just be like, okay, that's what I want do. And like, I mean like the, the Apple maps, which I now believe are pretty close to on par with Google maps, that's what they were saying came out. Yeah. When it came out it was not, not definitely not as good, but still 60% of app iPhone users were using it because when I click on, on something that shows up, you know, and so that's, that's part of the

Andy Ihnatko (01:50:16):
Issue, but that, but that's, that is kind of a danger. The more Apple gets into these more traditional sort of banking features, the more that they're putting the Goodwill that they've built with their customers at risk. That if they think, if people think that, oh, well, gosh, I, I was gonna, I I've, I've never done this. Hey, pay, pay nothing. Now wait a few for a few months. I've if, but I've, I've never accepted those terms. Cause I know there must be something where once I start payments, if I'm late, they're suddenly like a 50% tariff or 50% fee. The first time that app that someone says, Hey, I trust Apple, not to screw me over on a credit deal or on a loan deal or on a pay later deal. Suddenly this, they become not the trustworthy place that is not gonna steal my information. That is gonna treat me well, that's gonna treat me fairly. And it becomes, oh, I shouldn't have trusted them at all. I just had a horrible experience with Apple and I'm never gonna recommend them to anybody ever again.

Leo Laporte (01:51:08):
Yeah. But what an opportunity to be the good guy.

Andy Ihnatko (01:51:12):
True.

Leo Laporte (01:51:13):
Right.

Andy Ihnatko (01:51:14):
So that's I'm, I'm keen to see again, if someone can't come up with a money, is it a straight repo and you're fine or is it no, you're still on the hook for, for a $2,000 computer only. Now it's a $2,400 computer, right?

Alex Lindsay (01:51:27):
It does say eligibility, you know, it's based on eligibility. It's not, they're not letting anybody do four payments. So, but people there's a little the fine print. And so the, my guess is, is that the rating has to be pretty high and people with high, higher ratings are pretty obsessive about pain. Right.

Andy Ihnatko (01:51:45):
So, yeah. But, but people's circumstances do change as we found out in the past two or three years where sure you were, you're fine. You're you were fine last year and you thought, oh, well, gosh, I'm buying a, a new car, a new house and a new Mac. Right. And suddenly you're living in your car and you can't pay for the new Mac.

Leo Laporte (01:51:59):
At least you have a new Mac. Speaking of,

Andy Ihnatko (01:52:02):
So you can just say heater for the car.

Leo Laporte (01:52:04):
Speaking is living in your car, we'll wrap up with this. I thought it was really interesting. And, and what they talked about with a car play, I thought kind of say, it's kind of signal that they wanna build a car. I don't know if I'm wrong about this. They talked about the next generation of CarPlay and showed a screen that as far as I know is only available in one high end auto, the Mercedes EQs that goes all the way across. And by the way, there's no Mercedes branding or Ford or any other car company, it's all Apple as if they're telling the car companies, let us design the UI. I thought very interesting.

Andy Ihnatko (01:52:45):
Yeah. I wonder if that, I wonder how much of that is a really rigged sample because boy instrumentation,

Leo Laporte (01:52:52):
Well, this is, this is not even rigged. This is a drawing. No, I mean,

Andy Ihnatko (01:52:55):
No, I, I know. I know, but, but I mean that I want you're, you're absolutely right. But the thing is there, there have been studies based on how many people have died because a switch was put in the wrong place or because it's the wrong color or because what it looks like it's set, but it's not set you, this is not something I, I can change my watch face on my Android watch is something stupid. It doesn't really matter. But if you let someone rearrange their console, so that a really, really important piece of data just isn't there when they absolutely need it. That's a really, really bad thing. It's, it's, it's in. It's interesting. And also, I wonder how many designers, if you thought that Johnny I and Apple designers were obsessive, think about the designers of a luxury brand car. Are they gonna be happy handing over the user interface designs?

Leo Laporte (01:53:41):
That's why somebody else that, why? I think it's really about project Titan. That's what I really think. Yeah. it says this next generation of CarPlay is the ultimate iPhone experience for the car. It provides content for all the drivers' screens, all of them, by the way, you know where your speedometer would be, everything, including the instrument cluster, inuring a cohesive design experience. That's the very best of your car and your iPhone vehicle functions like a radio and tempera vehicle functions like radio and temperature controls are handled right from CarPlay, personalization options ranging from widgets to selecting a curated gauge cluster design, making unique to the driver. I have to think this is really intended for self-driving cars. I think this is, this is Apple saying, yeah, you see that ugly thing that your car manufacturer's foisting on you you could have this.

Andy Ihnatko (01:54:30):
Yeah. And there's, we notice that there's still not how many traditions of watch us later. There's still not allowing you to create your own watch faces, but they're coming, coming up with our own curated designs on a regular basis. So maybe this is part of that. Yeah. Same philosophy.

Leo Laporte (01:54:43):
We, I mean, we know Apple's working in a car. I, the only thing I could think of is this is intended for an Apple car.

Alex Lindsay (01:54:48):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that also, I mean, they did say that there's a, we're gonna start seeing some of these at least in the, in the, not too distant future. So I mean, they, you know, not, they're

Leo Laporte (01:54:56):
Gonna announce 18 months, late, 20, 23 late. They're gonna announce which vehicles.

Alex Lindsay (01:55:02):
Right.

Leo Laporte (01:55:03):
For, I, I, for instance, I have CarPlay on my Ford ma, which I love, and there are some components from CarPlay showing up on the driver's screen, but most of the driver's screens owned by Ford. I don't see Ford ever giving that up.

Alex Lindsay (01:55:18):
I'm sorry. I think the, I think the real danger for the car manufacturers is in each class. Let's like, if we break up these cars into, let's say five classes in each class where there's not a lot of difference between the cars, not a lot of differentiating factors, this could be a differentiating factor. I know that I would never buy a car that didn't have car plug. Absolutely.

Leo Laporte (01:55:38):
At this point, that's why I didn't buy a Tesla

Alex Lindsay (01:55:40):
And IPOed it when it first came out. Yeah. but I, but I would never buy one now. And, and so the issue is, is that if, if I had five cars in the same class that I was looking at, and only one had this new Apple interface, I, I would buy it. Yeah. Like, like I, the other, you know, and, and, and so, so I think that if they don't have to turn the whole industry, they just have to divide it <laugh>, you know, and then, and then, and create a, a real cause it's really hard for cars to differentiate themselves from each other. And so for the ones that don't want to play, you just get the other ones and you, you know, beat them with it, like, you know, and, and that's, and so that's, you know, that's, that's the, so I think that that might be more of what Apple is you know, gonna try to try to do at least and move things forward is just get, you know, cut those classes into bits and pieces. And then you know, show enough. And if they show high sales, I mean, and when I say high sales, a punch of one or 2% is worth billions, right. You know, just one or 2% more. I

Leo Laporte (01:56:35):
Think consumers more may also say an Apple kind of hinted at this. I don't trust BMW with my data. I trust Apple with my data. Right. And and that's gonna be a differentiator as well, going down the

Andy Ihnatko (01:56:48):
Road. Well, there's so BMW's still gonna get your data. They're just gonna let they're. No,

Leo Laporte (01:56:52):
Apple's very restrictive. No, Apple's very restrictive. If you're using

Andy Ihnatko (01:56:55):
No Apple automotive, are you? I okay. I D I, I have, I have trouble. I have trouble believing that a company would sign on for something like that, given how valuable that data is. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:57:08):
I agree. And that's why Apple wants to put pressure on your car

Alex Lindsay (01:57:12):
Company. And again, again, we have to remember that Verizon, Verizon laughed Apple out of the out of the room when they, when they offered the, when they said what they wanted for the iPhone. And it was probably the most expensive thing Verizon ever did, you know,

Andy Ihnatko (01:57:26):
So well, they got, they got their money back. I mean, that's, I'm just, I'm just saying that, I'm just saying, yeah, well, they're, they're still selling. They' still, they, they still reap the, the, the iPhone. So what they, what they lost was this is I'm, I'll, I'll, I'll prevent this from becoming a total distraction, but they basically gave at and T the ability to, to lift themselves into Verizon's orbit as far as as

Alex Lindsay (01:57:48):
Far. Well, and they, and the thing is, is that I, I dumped Verizon for at and T when the iPhone came out and I'm still using at and T and I spend a lot of money with at and T it's, the whole family, anything else?

Andy Ihnatko (01:58:00):
You know, it's a, lot's

Alex Lindsay (01:58:01):
A lot of people like that.

Andy Ihnatko (01:58:02):
I just, I just don't think that, that CarPlay is gonna be doing a whole lot that Android, Android auto can't match. I'm also skeptical that there're gonna be a whole lot of it. It looks great for as a solution for luxury cars, but how about the, the cars that most people are gonna be buying, which they're just gonna have a very simple center console and maybe dashes from cuff cluster to fill out. So I I've, I, I Rema, I, I, I, I am yet to be convinced that this is going to be a Trump card for, for Apple. It's nice, but it's, it's it's, as, as Alex, excuse me, as Leo said, it's, it's a piece of art at this point. Right. and we're still trying to figure out exactly. It's, it's nice to see that Apple's trying to make some find ways to monetize all their research on the car.

Andy Ihnatko (01:58:45):
Most of the news that we're getting outta that project is another really critical person decided to bail and start working for another car company, or just to, to as soon as their, as soon as their, their stock options paid out, they decided to come to leave, which is not something that someone who is looking forward to being on a stage being introduced by by Tim cook and showing off the, the actual product that is actually shipping, that they, if they see that happening in the next couple years, they're probably not gonna stick around. They like to ship products. So it's, maybe they're looking for ways to monetize all the research they've been doing up to this point

Leo Laporte (01:59:19):
Mac O S 10 or 11. Is it 13 now <laugh> Ventura Mac O S 13 Ventura as all the stuff we just talked about, basically. Yeah. <Laugh> yep. That's, what's really interesting. I mean, honestly, if you wanna look at the overall of what we, what we heard yesterday, everything they said, really for the first time ever kind of applied to all their operating systems, to some degree, they're all designed to work together. You know, stage manager comes to both iOS iPad OS I should say. And Mac OS the collaborative features and messages go all across the board, continuity and handoff across the board. We're really seeing, this is really a, a strong ecosystem play from Apple. And oh, but

Mikah Sargent (02:00:04):
Leo, you can't forget that clock is now on Mac O

Leo Laporte (02:00:08):
S and now <laugh> just, it was a, it was a trade iPad OS traded weather. There you go. Traded for weather, gave, gave Mac OS clock OS and, and an app to be named later. And and I think it everybody's very

Andy Ihnatko (02:00:22):
Next. Next they're gonna be next. They're gonna be demanding graphing calculator. Where does it end Leo

Leo Laporte (02:00:26):
<Laugh> <laugh> yeah, there are a few apps that we have not yet parted over. I think really a lot of this is just Apple showing off the, this, the commonality of the, of the platform. Now

Andy Ihnatko (02:00:36):
It is notable that, oh, you got this, this, this, this, this Ventura does drop a lot of max, a lot of mostly Intel max, but a lot of max that people might have bought as early, as like two years ago, three years ago are not gonna be compatible. That doesn't, that doesn't mean that they're dead. That doesn't mean the support is dead because the, the, the versions of the OS they're running right now is very, very nice. But I, I think that some people are gonna feel like who bought max in like 2019 might feel like their noses are got pushed outta joint by

Leo Laporte (02:01:07):
This one, IMAX 2017 and later iMac pro 2017 and later MacBook air 2018 and later MacBook pro 2017. And later, at least they didn't say you have to have an M one Mac pro 2019 and later Mac studio, Mac mini 19 later next year.

Alex Lindsay (02:01:23):
Yeah. I mean, you know, definitely you don't buy into the Mac OS expecting a lot of backwards compatibility, right. I mean, it's still going back five years. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:01:30):
So, yeah, I think that that's,

Mikah Sargent (02:01:31):
We got pretty excited about handoff coming to handoff for FaceTime coming to the Mac.

Leo Laporte (02:01:37):
Yeah. I remember only cuz my mom never answers on the right device. <Laugh> and I have to hang up and say, don't answer and I'm gonna call you back now answer only on the iPad, but now she'll just be able to swoop it over to the, you also like the fact that they have that quick note feature is now coming to the iPhone as well. It's always been on the iPad and Mac O S where you drag up from the right hand corner that makes notes get, I mean, notes is just getting better and better and better. Well,

Alex Lindsay (02:02:04):
And, and I think that the, the, the real challenge is, is, is really dealing with the fact for all the other competitors is Apple just keeps tying these ecosystems together. And no one else really has that ecosystem. <Laugh>, you know, that that can tie all the pieces of hardware and all the different things that you're doing back together. I've kind of wandered off from the from the AirPods ecosystem. I don't use them as much, you know, in a day to day basis. And it's back to Bluetooth.

Leo Laporte (02:02:30):
Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (02:02:30):
You're just kinda like, okay, Ugh.

Leo Laporte (02:02:33):
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (02:02:33):
They were big on gaming as well. We didn't really mention that at all because I think we're all a little bit skeptic

Leo Laporte (02:02:38):
Gaming on

Mikah Sargent (02:02:38):
The desk. They were, yeah. Yeah. They were big on that. They showed that very popular resident, evil village game that you can play right now on PS five and Xbox whichever console but it's coming to the max soon. And then they also showed no man sky on the platform as well. So I think that they were really trying to say, Hey, Hey, Hey, in fact, one of the first sessions available for folks today was all about bringing the support for unity games to Apple. So they had all sorts of stuff about how in unity you can add these little plugins that Apple has that will allow you to basically make it a little bit easier for those unity games to come. And did you know Leo that in this next version of Macko S you can create Linux virtual machines?

Leo Laporte (02:03:30):
What

Mikah Sargent (02:03:31):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I thought I thought about you when I read that,

Leo Laporte (02:03:34):
Oh, that might be nice. They talked, they didn't mention unity on stage. They mentioned Matt metal. Alex's metal enough to bring AAA gaming to the Mac.

Alex Lindsay (02:03:46):
I don't, I don't think so. I don't think that's enough. I mean, I think the problem is just not that as much of a culture for that. Right. You know, on that side. So I think they have to figure out, you know, who's gonna buy the, buy it that doesn't already own a console, or doesn't already, if you're really into the triple a gaming, you have a big PPC, right. Or you have a console. And so I think that it's gonna take a long time. I think that Apple has to using arcade really has to fund some app, some games that really push the outer envelope of what the hardware can do. That's the advantage that they have is that they're actually directly funding these, these games. And so they can actually go, okay, we really wanna see you push the outer envelope of, of that process or, or build games like that. And I think there, they could I think there's a lot of places they could do that. And I think that what would be really interesting is to build something that could be played on the phone and scale to the Mac pro you know, and just give you more detail and more, more things to enjoy. And I don't think anybody's done that that I've seen very well. I mean, there's people who have tried it, but I think that Apple has, is the, is uniquely capable of doing

Leo Laporte (02:04:46):
That. And we didn't really get to watch OS we'll maybe save that for next week, but very clear that Apple says now the watch is about health and a lot of new health features on watch OS that are gonna make it more and more desirable to runners and, and, and others sleep stages, sleep stages. They have med timers and med reminders, and they've just add added a huge amount of health features. This is now the health device. And they're just doubling down on that.

Andy Ihnatko (02:05:17):
If you, if you go to the, if you go to the the new features page for, for, for the back, for the iPad, for the iPhone, it's just lots and lots of variated cop topics and, and, and different kinds of features on enhancements. You, you, you have to, you could almost like wear out your finger scrolling down on the watch OS before you get to the first thing. That's nothing to do with health. Yeah. So, yeah. And, and that's even, that's gonna be like alternative watch faces.

Leo Laporte (02:05:40):
<Laugh> all right. Let's take a break picks of the week still to come as we continue MacBreak Weekly. Thank you Mikah for coming in and filling in for Rene Ritchie. It's great to have you on, especially here, you already got up early this morning to do iOS today with Rosemary orchard. And it'll be back on Thursday for tech news weekly. Watch iOS today. If you want a deeper dive, right. Into iOS. Yes,

Mikah Sargent (02:06:03):
Absolutely.

Leo Laporte (02:06:04):
16. Yeah, lots of stuff. And I bet you talked a little bit about home kit.

Mikah Sargent (02:06:09):
I didn't, because there wasn't enough. There wasn't enough discussed.

Leo Laporte (02:06:13):
So a little bit disappointing, frankly. Yep. As, as, but that's appropriate, cuz basically that's what home automation is a little bit disappointing. <Laugh> Alex Lindsay, office hours.global and oh nine.media, Andy Anaco WGB H Boston. We will have your picks of the week prepare after this word from our sponsor cash fly. Our show is brought to you by cash flight, not just a sponsorship, but literally when you download it, when you watch it, you're watching from a cash fly server near you. And that's why I love cash fly. It's our content delivery network, our CDN with the best throughput, the best global reach 50 locations around the globe. So whenever you're watching our shows or listening to our shows, you're getting the content from a server close to you geographically. That's why so many people use cash fly, not just for content delivery, but for gaming.

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Leo Laporte (02:08:09):
Just fantastic. You want take a look at that. They call it SOS storage optimization system. And of course, with cash flow's elite managed packages, you get VIP treatment, the kind of treatment we get 24 7 support response times in less than an hour. In most cases, if there's an issue they'll know about it and they'll be working to fix it before your team is even called cash flight lightning, fast gaming, faster, download zero lag, glitches, or outages mobile content optimization that offers automatic and simple image optimization. So your site loads faster on any device. Multi CDN means redundancy and failover. In fact, cash flies at a hundred percent availability over the last 12 months, 100%. They're 10 times faster than traditional methods on six continents, 30% faster than other major CDNs with a 98% cash hit ratio. It's cash fly C a C H E F L Y. Interested. Let me recommend you go to cash. Fly.Com best of all 24 7 365 day a year priority support. So they'll always be there when you need them cash fly.com. And if you've got video, if you're streaming, you definitely wanna look at their ultra low latency streaming cash fly. Thank you. Cash flight. You're a lifesaver and have been for more than 10 years on our network. Mikah Sargent, I'm gonna let you kick things off our guest of honor today.

Mikah Sargent (02:09:33):
All right. Yeah. I'm talking about an app called Goodday world and this, this is app Goodday. This is a really cool app for folks who are curious about the UI of iOS. So this app was actually created entirely by a person who is a product designer first and foremost developer not so much like that's how he describes himself. So even though he is a product designer and thinks about things in that way he wanted to talk about the different ways that this that the system works. So the, the, the guy's name is Clarkk and it starts out with some fun text and everything that you can read about and talking about should designers actually do coding, but it goes on from there. It shows off a lot of the fun UI features that are available that you might not even know about.

Mikah Sargent (02:10:22):
So this first little kind of widget or little toolkit that's here is one for different places around Cupertino that are tasty places to eat. So you can swipe between these different places and kind of learn about them. If you're in the area. The next one is a little streaming media player that will play music throughout the day, depending on what day it is. So each day it comes up with a new thing, but this is where things get fun. You can learn about different ways to actually do toggles. So essentially this product designer was trying to see how customizable swift UI is while also getting to play around with it. So the first thing is I can go through and tap on all of these toggles and play around with them, the toggles to the right, have all of these little animations that go along with them.

Mikah Sargent (02:11:08):
So you can see these customizations that you can do to make your code as customizable as you want and get some idea. And, oh, I should also mention there are some haptic feedback things happening as well. Also for these switches and the, the product designer's super clever in writing as well. So as you read through these, you kind of have a chuckle as you're learning about them different check boxes. And then my favorite segment is called keyed up and here, I didn't realize there were so many different kinds of keyboards that iOS can serve you depending on what you're doing. And what's cool is you can tap on each of these keyboards and actually bring them up from the bottom. There's the default model, the ask capable model, but even ones like the Twitter variant, which you can see in the bottom, right?

Mikah Sargent (02:11:52):
There's the at sign and the octothorp or the pound sign, depending on how you choose to describe it. I guess also the hashtag is another way. And then there's versions like the email address form. So whenever you tap into an email form, this is the keyboard that pops up the URL keyboard form and so on and so forth. And then this section, which talks about auto, correct, there's this part here where you're meant to type in the text below that says the five boxing wizards jump quickly, right? And obviously I'm not doing a very good job typing that has autocorrect built in, but the one underneath is without auto, correct. And you're meant to type it in and see kind of how hard it can be to actually type that out. And then it goes on to all caps, typing, typing with each word capitalized, and then even one that has the SpongeBob case, which is where they're ones that are up and down, but that one is not actually built into the system. The developer is continuously updating these so that you can check out the other, other discoveries that they've made as they are playing around in the system. And I just think it's a really delightful little app that is kind of a, a quick look at some of the built in features of swift UI. And also the developer started building it in playgrounds on an iPad. So think that's a pretty cool thing as well.

Leo Laporte (02:13:15):
<Laugh> yeah. Chance to see all the controls and stuff built into swift UI. Good. A world from clock O yeah. Nah, LLC it's free.

Mikah Sargent (02:13:25):
Yep. Absolutely free any

Leo Laporte (02:13:26):
Code samples or is it just it's just to look at it.

Mikah Sargent (02:13:29):
Yeah. It's just for looking, just to see what those, all the

Andy Ihnatko (02:13:31):
Design interface, design patterns,

Mikah Sargent (02:13:34):
Because these are things that you can just drag and drop, essentially. There's not really right. There's kind of a fun thing. If you're curious about the inner workings and what's possible just even on the surface of swift UI, this is a great app for that.

Andy Ihnatko (02:13:48):
It's like the Fisher phrase, busy, busy box for baby. It is box a dial and

Mikah Sargent (02:13:54):
Button. It's a fidget cube. Yeah. <laugh>

Andy Ihnatko (02:13:57):
Annie and I go bigger of the week. Mine is a kind of a combined pick and tip. I've I've gradually become convinced that it is okay to not spend a fortune on a monitor arm. The, the one that I've been using for the past 10 years is an Ergotron. Like it's a made by a proper company. It constantly like hundreds of dollars and it's and, but I've just particularly given how much time I'm using with my with my, my MacBook connected to an external screen and also connected to an iPad at the same time, I decided that, okay, I need a dual alarm thing. And I was like, ah, geez, I really wanna spend $350 for like the, the Tron one of those, or the ones that was recommended by wire cutter. But I've, it's especially tempting given that if you go on Amazon, you will find just like dozens of like kind of no name monitor arms that cost like 50 bucks, even like the dual monitor dual arm ones cost like 60 or 70.

Andy Ihnatko (02:14:51):
So I I've, I've been tracking prices for a while. I found one that I kind of liked. And when it went on sale for 90 bucks, I bought it. It was to not specifically recommending this one, but this happens to be the ER gear E R G E a R dual monitor stand list price 149. Currently it's 110. I bought it at 89. I use, I was as usual, I was using camel camel, camel to track prices and say, Nope, that is legitimately a super low price. So I just, I bought it. So I'm using it right now. And I have to, I have to say that I found nothing to complain about. It's all metal parts. It's not like it's like all plastic. And it's like everything's sagging after the, after one day. The difference between this and my Tron is that set up was definitely more complicated.

Andy Ihnatko (02:15:33):
There was a lot more assembly to be done. I've I was kind of anticipating that would be like the Tron where you basically snap a few things together, screw it onto my desk. And I'm good. No, it did take a little while the, the instructions were okay, but not great, but not hard to follow. The other thing is that I think that if I paid an extra two or $300 for the setup, the arms would be a lot more like zero gravity than they actually are. What I like about my Tron is that I can Tru I can truly just hold the bottom of my, of, of the screen with a few fingers and just tilt and move it exactly where I want it to go. And it stays there. These arms are a little stiffer. They're they can certainly be adjusted exactly the same way as as I do in my 300, 300, $400 arm.

Andy Ihnatko (02:16:15):
But the difference is that I kind of have to use both arms, both hands to do it and put it where I want it to go. Then it will stay where it wants to go. It's just, it takes a, it it's more difficult. I think to dial it in it, it uses gas cylinders, just like the expensive one to decide, like to offset the weight of whatever it is. You've got connected to it. I've got a 24 inch Dell monitor on one, I've got my MacBook pro on a tray on the other one. And so if I spent more time fidling with that adjustment to counteract the weight precisely as opposed to roughly maybe it would be better, but then again, it's not as though I'm always like adjusting these things a hundred ways. Anyway, in this particular application, I'm happy to have saved $200 with a, a very small amount of inconvenience that I think was worth it.

Andy Ihnatko (02:17:00):
So basically what I'm saying is that if you have been in the same position that I've been in, where you seemed, you don't have like three or $400 to spend on again, a really good name brand recommended by a wire cutter monitor arm. But you don't wanna buy junk that will, <laugh> wake you up in the middle of the night in the other room, because you've got $5,000 worth of screens and computers that are just been flung across the, by a, by a, by a broken spring. I think it's, I think it's a, it's a good thing to try. It's a good thing to test. I, I bought this and I'm very, very happy with it so far.

Leo Laporte (02:17:34):
Nice, nice. That's kind of one of my dreams to get my monitors up on arms. That would be a I've good thing to do. They're not, but

Andy Ihnatko (02:17:43):
I, I meant to, I meant to ask Alex, what was the, you, you, you had a visa amount recommendation for an iPad pro that I lost. Yeah. You say you bought you buy it's it's

Alex Lindsay (02:17:51):
It's vivo. I dunno if I can reach, reach it. There it is. It's kind of in there and it's on an arm too. I, all my monitors are on arms. I use, I do something similar to Andy is that I have I have like five monitors that are on arms. And then I have a whack tablet here. That's what I use for my, my whack. Tablet's connected to it and via visa amount. And I use two of these little vivo holders to grab onto the iPad and grab onto a whack tablet. They're all on wan, which is another inexpensive set of arms. And they make ones with a center pole as well as ones that Mount on the base. And they're similarly priced anywhere from 60 to 120 bucks. You know, the, the higher ones that I've used are the monitors in motion, which are magical. Like you just grab something to move it. And it goes where it wants the Amazon ones are about two 80. And my company, my, my previous company pixel score, you know, probably bought 20 of them, 30 of them <laugh>. But, but these ones are, they are, as Andy said, a little stiffer than the other ones are, they're not quite as magical <laugh> as, as placing things, but they're a lot cheaper. These are the ones I bought with

Andy Ihnatko (02:18:54):
My, and, and, and especially if you', if your goal is I want arms on all the things, not just on that one special screen that I do most of my work on. Yeah. Which, which, which has turned into my goal. I still have this, I still have the, on the, on a small table that I use just for podcasting. But as soon as I finish, like fixing up that corner of the office with the big work table, that's, that's gonna be like a four screen set up. And that's, that's the difference between 2021 and 2022 that, no, I definitely want like multiple, like iPads on visa amounts now and on arms, because they are that

Leo Laporte (02:19:27):
Useful. <Laugh> Alex, what's your pick this week.

Alex Lindsay (02:19:31):
So I, I'm gonna thank another person in office hours, Tom Ferguson. And again, I, I, with the some of the other stuff I was supposed suggested by him this is the aftershocks, which I just never thought I'd buy. And after shocks, it's called open, calm, and it's got a

Leo Laporte (02:19:48):
Wait a minute, it's

Alex Lindsay (02:19:49):
Got, it's a little boom, it's got a little boom mic on it. So this is bone conducting, which, you know, I experiment bone conducting early on. And I was like, eh, I don't think this is really my thing. The reason I got these is a lot of times we're doing things where we need coms and I need to be able to hear a show. So I need in ears in my ears, and then I can put these over top like this, and I can take 'em on and off. And I'm listening to my coms, you know, like, so I can talk to someone through coms and, you know, and I can pull this down. And, and and, and, and there I have, you know, that on top of it, so I can hear both shows at the same time without trying to mix them together.

Alex Lindsay (02:20:25):
And so so that's the reason I bought it. But what happened is, is that I got a lot of comments on, on, sorry, grab the wrong side on how clear the audio is. Oh, and how good, how good the noise reduction was. And so things that I couldn't do with my AirPods, like wash dishes while I'm talking to one of my producers, I wouldn't do it for a client, but like, if I'm talking about something, we just wanna talk for a little bit. I might want to clean something up or move something around it before it was always like, whoa, you're making a lot of noise that, that all went away. And so so having that as something I can have internal calls with and not have it be a problematic for me to move around a little bit was, was really great. You know, it's, it's pretty clear. It's more better. It's not, it's not a replacement for in years, but it's way better than I expected. And and it, and it works really well. And so, and it's really, it's comfortable to wear. I often will wear it for hours in a row. And it is yeah. So that's, you

Leo Laporte (02:21:21):
Were a sponsor for a long time and I I've been using aftershocks ever since for conferences. Cause yeah, but I didn't know they had a boom mic.

Alex Lindsay (02:21:28):
Yeah. The boom that's the boom mic makes a huge difference. Like cuz just closer turns out, you know, you cut the distance between the, the mic and the, and the, and the mouth and it makes a big difference. So yeah,

Leo Laporte (02:21:38):
It's kind of, because you're not in your ears, you can still do everything. You can still everything that's going on. And it's,

Alex Lindsay (02:21:44):
I really noticed how much I'm I'm much. I, I, it's more comfortable. I'm much more aware of my surroundings. Yeah. I can have those conversations and so it's, it, it, it, I, I was very surprised that I, that I liked it, but it's

Leo Laporte (02:21:54):
Really good. This, this should be the the number one pick for Hollywood agents everywhere.

Alex Lindsay (02:21:58):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Leo Laporte (02:22:00):
<Laugh> yeah. I mean really seriously. Nice. Very good. Yeah. Alex, I wanted to ask you, before we wrap today about John Foster, because he passed away good friend of the pixel core, he came up with a name pixel

Alex Lindsay (02:22:11):
Core. He did. He did. He came up with an AMX score. So the, the name. Yeah. So John Foster was incredible guy, you know, and and he when we were just getting started and I don't remember, I think we just started talking to each other because we were at user groups together, you know, and he would sometimes show stuff off. And so he was really integral, especially in the early years of really a lot of the thought process. Like he was the person that I, that I threw ideas against the wall with, you know, and, and on all the early stuff that now affects pixel core affects office hours affects, you know, a lot of things are just thinking through that process. And again, he, when we were talking about what is this thing that we're creating, he's like, well, it's kind of like Marine Corps and it's got that kind of structure to it. And, but it's with pixels. And so, so that was the, you know, and he is like pixel core and that was the, and so he, he really came up with that. And, and so anyway, so it's he's an incredible guy and, and, you know, had some health issues. And so he he did pass last week and

Leo Laporte (02:23:13):
Yeah, so

Alex Lindsay (02:23:13):
Sad, really, really amazing, amazing person he

Leo Laporte (02:23:15):
Hosted or not hosted, but he was a regular on this weekend media, I think. Right. And

Alex Lindsay (02:23:19):
He was in the early days, he was definitely one of the, one of the regulars, you know, on it. And just, and just knew, you know, he had a whole, he had been in really in the dot, you know, boom during the nineties and really just deep into interactive design and, and building things and in just an incredible thinker. And so it was really great to have him as part of some of the early shows, as well as you know, as well as just, just someone that was just a great friend that was able to help me synthesize a lot of, lot of ideas.

Leo Laporte (02:23:49):
Yeah. And part of our early, early Mac breaks as well. Yeah. Yeah. I remember John. Well, yeah. Well, sorry to sorry to lose another great guy, but yeah. We'll miss him. Thank

Alex Lindsay (02:24:04):
You. A, a reminder, just to stay in touch with folks. Yeah. You know, that's right. I realized I hadn't seen him in a couple years, you know, because me too, all

Leo Laporte (02:24:10):
The stuff.

Alex Lindsay (02:24:10):
Yeah. And, and just and then when I found out I was, you know, surprised, so

Leo Laporte (02:24:15):
Yeah, cuz he was young. Alright. Thank you, Alex. Thank you, Andy. Thank you, Rene. No, thank you, Mikah. <Laugh> hold on. Let me, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. It's not Rene. How I'm Rene. <Laugh> Mikah will be back to day after tomorrow for tech news weekly. I imagine you'll be doing a little more Apple stuff and of course next Tuesday, you gotta watch iOS today with Rosemary orchard. That's a great show. You two are fans and us on Saturday. Oh yeah. I forgot. He also joins me on the tech guy every Saturday. He's gonna solo while I'm on the twit cruise. Ooh. July 16th to 2030 is gonna be on the, the host of the he's gonna be the tech guy. So we're, we're slapping him around, getting him ready for his his appearance. It's gonna be fun. I can't wait. It should be fun. Yeah, I'm leaving in good hands. Very good hands. Thank you, Andy. NACO. When are you gonna be on GBH your radio show?

Andy Ihnatko (02:25:11):
I'm off GBH this week, but I'm on WGN radio in Chicago on Thursday, 9:45 AM. Locally talking about WWC and other sundry

Leo Laporte (02:25:21):
Topics. WGN, great station

Andy Ihnatko (02:25:23):
WGN, radio.com to stream it live

Leo Laporte (02:25:24):
Or later. What is it somebody's show or just with the news people?

Andy Ihnatko (02:25:30):
Shit. It is. Oh, I can't remember because I, I, I, I do the, I do, I do the morning show, like every couple of month

Leo Laporte (02:25:35):
Off and on. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (02:25:36):
Yeah. But I'm afraid, but for 9:45 AM Chicago time. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. No, I, I, yeah, they're great to work with.

Leo Laporte (02:25:44):
And of course, Alex Lindsay, his business is day job. Oh nine oh.media. If you wanna hire him to to consult or to support your stream or any of your, your big events, this is a great boy. You couldn't get better than this. And office hours.global is all day, all night, but the mornings are where you do the special stuff what's coming up. Tomorrow morning,

Alex Lindsay (02:26:07):
This week is all WWDC. So we're oh, nice. You know, so we, we talked we had, of course yesterday morning we talked about what we wanna see. Then we talked, then we did the, the kind of the mystery science theater version of, of the show when the show was going on. And then in the evening we of course talked about it some more. And then this morning we talked with developers talking about audio and video and how, what WC affects there tomorrow. We'll talk about 3d and AR. And Thursday we'll kind of have a catchall of, of the things that, that think people saw. And then Friday we'll actually talk about what happened. Like, did we like what we did? So we, we have this odd thing where we look at things on the outside. Then we look on the inside, like, how did that coverage work? And we're we just finished Nam, which is the O big audio show last weekend where we covered it for three hours each day and wandered around and asked and did some great interviews. And then we cover Sy gear this Saturday, which is another big show in LA. And then then I'm speaking at Infocom remotely tomorrow. So, so it's a busy, busy, busy, busy, busy week. Yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:27:08):
Office hours global. You can participate it's zoom call or you can watch it after the fact does anybody know, do you know, Mikah is serenity gonna do her WWDC? Wrap-Ups she did. She did do those.

Mikah Sargent (02:27:22):
Yeah. Those kicked off yesterday night

Leo Laporte (02:27:25):
I was trying to find it. Where is it?

Mikah Sargent (02:27:27):
So I saw it in the developer app and I don't know if she posted it herself on Twitter that might, might have been why you didn't see it, but in the developer app it was the last thing posted.

Leo Laporte (02:27:37):
Good. Cuz that was a highlight last year. She does it as a emoji. <Laugh>

Mikah Sargent (02:27:42):
Yeah. It's really fun.

Andy Ihnatko (02:27:44):
No hair, no makeup. Perfect

Leo Laporte (02:27:46):
Setup. It's easy. <Laugh> I've been tempted to do that myself. Awesome. All right. So if you follow her on Twitter, S E T T E R N serenity Caldwell's Twitter account, you'll be able to see the links to her wrap-ups which she last year did every day. And I imagine that's what she's gonna do this year as well, which is great. Thank you everybody. We do MacBreak Weekly of a Tuesday morning around 11:00 AM. Pacific 2:00 PM. Eastern 1800 UTC. You can tune in and watch us live on the stream@livedottwit.Tv. There's actually audio and video there. If you're watching live chat live at IRC, do twit.Tv. You can also, if you're a club twit member, join us in the discord. That is a great place to go club twit. Let me give you a little plug to club twit because it's, it helps us out a lot.

Leo Laporte (02:28:41):
As as you know, we face the wins of change here in the podcast industry, seven bucks a month gets you ad free versions of all the shows we figure you're paying us. You don't need ads. So get ad free versions of all the shows. You also get access to the discord, which is a really great community. We've got all sorts of things coming up, including Stacy's book club. I'm gonna be participating in that because I'm reading the book and I love it. Stacy's book club is the 16th and it is at 9:00 AM Pacific and it's gonna be Neil Stephenson's Termination Shock. There will be a fireside chat with all of our members, July 7th, and then Alex is gonna do a fireside chat or, and ask me anything anyway, July 14th, some of the events going on in our discord, you also get the TWI plus feed, which gives you a lot of stuff that doesn't make it into the podcasts, the cutting room, floors things, bits and pieces plus shows that we don't put out as regular podcasts, like the untitled Linux show, the Giz Fiz.

Leo Laporte (02:29:41):
That's how this weekend weekend space started. Of course once we had kind of got it down and, and perfected, we released it as a podcast. That's another thing. The club lets us do your, your dollars help us launch new shows. In fact, you're gonna be happy to hear about a new show that's coming. We've been working on it pretty soon to first the club and then to for public consumption. If you wanna know more about club TWI to TV slash club TWI, I should also remember mention that if you just wanted MacBreak Weekly without ads, we sell that on iTunes as well, 2 99 a month. In fact, all the shows there's ad free versions. If you just want one show for 2 99 a month, I think we're doing it on a Spotify as well. They offer that as well. So 2 99 for any single show. If you only listen to one show, if you listen to more than one show, it makes sense probably to join club and get them all. Not Spotify. Thank you, Patrick. I, I'm not sure why not. Yep. I, they have that feature. Ben, I think we were talking about it, but you know, I don't, I'm not keeping up on what's going on. <Laugh> obviously <laugh> twit.Tv/Club twit. Thanks for joining us, everybody back to work, cuz break time is over byebye.

Mikah Sargent (02:30:51):
If you are looking for a midweek update on the weeks tech news, I gotta tell you, you gotta check out tech news weekly. See it's all kind of built in there with the title you get to learn about the news in tech that matters every Thursday, Jason, how and I talk to the people making and breaking the tech news, get their insights and their interesting stories. It's a great show to check out twit TV slash.