MacBreak Weekly Episode 800 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show. 

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for MacBreak Weekly, our 800th episode! Andy brought cake, Rene and Alex are here too to celebrate. And while there's not a whole lot of Apple news, we will talk about teenagers who are getting bullied because of the green bubble. We, and, and why can't Apple make messaging a universal platform. South Korea finally will allow third party payment systems on iOS. Is this a good idea? And the LA police officers who decided to play Pokemon instead of tracking down a robber, it's all coming up next on our 800th episode. Let him meat cake podcasts you love from people you trust. This is, this is MacBreak Weekly episode 800 recorded Tuesday, January 11th, 2022. Medically tr indicated MacBreak Weekly is brought to you by New Relic. That next 9:00 PM call is just waiting to happen. Get New Relic before it does, and you can get access to the whole New Relic platform in a hundred gigabytes of data free forever.

Leo Laporte (00:01:17):
No credit card required. Sign up at new, and by better help join over 1 million people. Who've taken charge of their mental health. As a listener, you'll get 10% off your first month by visiting better And by our crowd, our crowd helps accredited investors invest early in pre I P O companies alongside professional venture capitalists. Join the fastest growing venture capital investment community at It's time for MacBreak Weekly. The show we cover the latest news from apple, which this time of year is usually the snooze from apple. Rene Ritchie is here you How do you do it as a YouTube star to keep that content flowing during these slow periods?

Rene Ritchie (00:02:11):
Oh, I mean, somebody is always mad and somebody is always wrong. Leo. I mean, that's a beautiful thing. It's like the business publications, they have to keep their readers. So they find there's so much and can, and then so much, well they, yeah, they make it a there's teenagers who are being bullied by iMessage. Yeah. There's please from Android executives. There it is. It is just chock-full of drama.

Leo Laporte (00:02:29):
I actually do wanna talk about that wall street journal story, cuz I, I like almost, if I'd had a newspaper, I would have thrown it down <laugh> but we'll get to that in a second. First I have to say hello to Andy and NACO, don't have to want to say hello to Andy and NACO of WGB to Boston and places east. Hello?

Andy Ihnatko (00:02:46):
Hello, Leo. And congratulations. We are celebrating episode 800 of the Mac break podcast. I, I, I, I did get us a cake. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:02:55):
With you blue icing. Did it say 800 on it? Yeah. It's it's on my

Andy Ihnatko (00:02:59):
Instagram. I actually posted it to our discord. If you wanna take a look at it. Oh my God.

Leo Laporte (00:03:02):
I, you know, you've done more than we have. I've wasn't paying attention. Well, also

Andy Ihnatko (00:03:07):
A a, I thought it was a special occasion and also we've been like under COVID protocols for two years. So I haven't been to weddings or birthday cake birthdays. And it's been a long time since I've had cake. There's been a

Leo Laporte (00:03:17):
Cake definit in your life. Is that what you're saying? Decision. Oh, look at that. You really did. You did go all out. <Laugh> and how is the cake? <Laugh>

Andy Ihnatko (00:03:29):
It is a beautiful golden golden yellow cake with thick, thick buttercream. I'm SA I'm saving the roses for when I've given up all hope of life and don't matter, getting like a sugar coma.

Leo Laporte (00:03:41):
It's beautiful. Beautiful. Wow. Is that your favorite cake bakery?

Andy Ihnatko (00:03:47):
It's the, it's the, it's a local market that has a really good bakery department. And unfortunately, I, I did pay full full dollar for this cake, but they do this really cruel thing where occasionally like people will not pick up cakes and they will simply like cut this enormous sheet cake in quarters and say, okay, here's one quarter of a huge sheet cake for a dollar 99. And I'm like, that is a really good deal on sheet cake. And I do enjoy cake

Leo Laporte (00:04:10):
<Laugh> and the quarter of a cake. It's not that much. Exactly. It's not the entire depends on how big the cakis.

Andy Ihnatko (00:04:17):

Leo Laporte (00:04:19):
It's you say it's too, it's a queen size or is it a California king? I mean, how big is the sheet?

Andy Ihnatko (00:04:25):
I would I iPad pro 12.9 inch a quarter of that. No, I'm saying that's a, that's a quarter of that is like 12, whoever it is that like quit and they had a going away party must have circulated a memo on how much, how they really feel about the entire staff. And so they canceled like the party it's I will say it's just too much cake for someone who lives alone and may is not necessarily of goer proportions to begin with it's it's medically contraindicated. However, every once in a while, if I could just have one like lovely cake, I'll freeze the restaurant, I promise whatever I don't eat during this show or dinner tonight, I will freeze.

Leo Laporte (00:04:59):
This is a, by the way, new world record, Andy actually has now two titles in one sentence, medically contraindicated would be I think, an excellent title for this show. And then there was another one, which of course I only have a short term memory of a Nat, so I can't remember, but you said it and we'll go back and listen again and find it. I, I

Andy Ihnatko (00:05:19):
Try to, I try to continue to add value even after, after so much, for so many years, for this show, after

Leo Laporte (00:05:23):
So many pieces of sheet cake, also with us from office hours and oh nine oh media, Alex Lindsay, I referred to somebody on the radio show to you this week because he wanted to set up a streaming thing and he was wondering what kind of cameras, et cetera, et cetera. He's actually was an interesting a call guy named Charlton as in Heston. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> he said he is in Hollywood. He's an art director. He does, right. Don't tell anybody he was doing the sets for Westworld. So you know, he's been working on it since the, the inaugural episode. So the really, you know, that's a, I said, well, I have, I want to give you props cuz the people who do these beautiful sets don't get really acknowledged. And yet I, as I, when I watch a movie, I don't know, I guess it's cuz of you, Alex, I'm always thinking about behind the scenes production and I'm thinking God, they put so much effort into making that look real and perfect looks so good. It's so good. And, and the next day it's gone, he said, yeah, yeah, that's it. You shoot, you shoot for two days, 10 seconds of film. <Laugh> it's often we throw it out. So props to him, but he wanted to do a streaming thing. And I said, well go, go to office hours. So look for Charlton, not office hours, we will, we'll keep our eye out for him.

Alex Lindsay (00:06:33):

Leo Laporte (00:06:34):
I said, you go in there join the, just ask the question and then sit back as an avalanche of knowledge.

Alex Lindsay (00:06:42):
It's it really is amazing. Every once in a while I wake up and we're getting ready, like there's this roll up, you know, seven o'clock in the morning, every day specific standard time. And there's like a, at six 30 is the mic checks and the mic like today, we had, you know, all these people are doing mic checks and they're checking their camera angles and all our bits and pieces. Then we had a guest, we had this company called Harrison, they make mixers and they have this online audio mixing system called mix bus. And and so they come in and they, they do their thing and then everyone's kind of setting up and there's this, this, this huge movement. And I'm, as I'm making my coffee, like listening to it kind of workout. I was like, this is crazy. <Laugh> it is, is

Leo Laporte (00:07:18):
Amazing. What's truly amazing what you said fun.

Alex Lindsay (00:07:22):
Yeah. It's such a great, and it's such a great bunch of people and every time you, every time and, and you know, between when I'm not in meetings, I just leave after hours, which is our runs 21 hours a day. I just leave it on. It's like, it's like, I just sit in the background and people are talking about, I mean, some someone yesterday was talking about like how to, you know, how to weld pieces of stuff for their Jeeps and put cameras on them. Cause, and they're like a live streamer with like, you know, a lot of followers <laugh>, you know, on YouTube and you know, they're just kind, but they, but they were just kind, they were just kind of hacking through ideas and so on and so forth. And so it's, it's quite a thing.

Leo Laporte (00:07:54):
Unbelievable. A great resource, highly recommended office So let's talk about that wall street journal piece, cuz I, I, you think you nailed it Renee, when you said at, at this time of year publications have to come up with something, anything to keep you reading. I mean there's plenty of financial news, but the wall street journal decided it's time to talk about how apple is bullying teenagers. And, and this came from a study that said 80, I think it was 87% of all teenagers have iPhones.

Alex Lindsay (00:08:27):
I thought it was 70%, but it might be 80. I have to give credit

Rene Ritchie (00:08:30):
To Neil sidebar because he tweeted wall street journal editor. It's been a while since we had an apple story, any ideas wall street journal reporter. How about iMessage popularity amongst teens editor boring any way to spice it up? Reporter, how about apple leverages teen bullying and peer pressure to give itself an edge and messaging editor?

Leo Laporte (00:08:44):
Bingo. Bingo will. Why Apple's Mai message is winning teens dread the green text bubble. The iPhone maker cultivated iMessage is a must have texting tool for teens, Android users trigger, trigger a just a little less cool green bubble. Ew that's gross. And that's just to the headline. <Laugh>

Andy Ihnatko (00:09:05):
I mean, in the us where people

Alex Lindsay (00:09:06):
Actually use iMessage, right? Because the rest of the world is going what's iMessage <laugh> yeah. They're a, it's such a tiny platform. It's like, it's like iMessage is like this. He doesn't, I, I did some research for this when I saw this article and I was looking, trying to find their market share and it's like, doesn't even show up on most of the charts. Like it's like this tiny little, you know, in the us, I think it might be 17% depending on how they, but evidently us teens, I think it's important. Which of course should we should bring legislators involve our legislators because we now need to worry of about how teens are interacting with their phone. Yeah, well

Leo Laporte (00:09:39):
That, that, but there is a, there is a point to be made and this is of course Google and the Android team jumped on this article immediately and said, this is lock IER saying, this is why apple, although their solution was not apple should port iMessages to Android. Cuz they realized that's F futile. We know apple has no intent of doing that. Because a lock in, I mean let's, let's admit it, apple admits it in their emails as,

Andy Ihnatko (00:10:02):
As Craig Feder himself explicitly said and emails discovered through

Leo Laporte (00:10:05):
The yeah. Yeah. Epic lawsuit. By the way, Alex, there are two different numbers. That's where you got the 70%. So according to P consumer intelligence research partners, 40% of us consumers use iPhones. But among those age, 18 to 24, more than 70% are iPhone users. But then go down two paragraphs and Piper Sandler, which did a survey of teenagers found that 87% of teens surveyed last year on iPhones. I think that's more accurate. I asked my son when he was in college was now, you know, five years ago. He was in a frat and I said, do any of the frat boys have Androids? He said all but one of us have iPhones all but one curious, not even in college and, and not even in co. And the reason he said is that poor guy with the Android phone never gets invited to our group texts. Yeah. Oh yeah. You never, he left all the events. So everybody ha so there is it, it is not inaccurate to say there's peer pressure to have an iPhone.

Andy Ihnatko (00:11:04):
It's it's, it's not, it's not ridiculous. It, it does have an effect on conversations even for grownups it's. Most of my immediate family have iPhones and the idea of, I don't want to have to give them like a two S reaction to some something, but I just wanna say, Ooh, cool photo. But whereas they can just simply long press and say favorite or love or like I still have to go through like the, the regular SMS channels. And so yeah, I am kind of at a disadvantage and yeah, it does cause a problem when they're using like what they consider to be advanced chat features. And I have to, to say that they're, I, I wish that apple would explain what the problem is with RCS and other standards that they don't wanna just roll that into the standard, like phone messaging app. I, I, I understand the argument for not supporting iMessage on Android, even, even outside of the, the argument, even outside of the email evidence that, Hey, we don't wanna give families an ex an easy excuse to buy cheap Android phones for their kids. But I understand that there's that there are technical reasons that there's, who's gonna pay for the backbone of this network, et cetera, et cetera. But I do think that apple needs to respond broadly by saying we are gonna at least make our standard messaging app for phone to phone conversation and support as many good emerging standards that are being supported in the United States. As we can,

Rene Ritchie (00:12:21):
Again, I'm way more selfish because what I, my, my whole thing with this, well, two things. One is the green bubble blue bubble originally served a real purpose because text messages you paid for and they were not encrypted and apple believed you needed a visual state to know that if your message was, was like falling over into SMS, you might be charged for it, or it may all longer be secure. And the way they did that was with the green and blue differentiation. And of course, society ran with that. But my thing is it still does that like as 2021, and it'll still fall over to SMS. If it can't make an iMessage connection, or if somebody switches devices and there's suddenly on a, on a non iPhone, that group chat will fall out of iMessage. And I don't ever wanna be like just in the position to have no control over whether my messages are secured or not.

Rene Ritchie (00:13:03):
And our RCS is not a great solution yet. It's still maturing. It's way better than it used to be. It does, does now support one to one encryption. It's working on one to many and I, and apple doesn't announce the stuff afford to in anyway. So I think it's, it's weird that Rosi is all angry about it in January when there's no chance Apple's gonna announce anything for six months. Right. But I would love it just as a security conscious privacy conscious iPhone user. If I never had to see SMS again in my, in my chat.

Leo Laporte (00:13:26):
So you make an interesting point, which is that this is a, a us mostly a us only problem because in the rest of the world, WhatsApp or a line or WeChat, whatever, depending on the region you're in is so dominant and, and provides all those features that there isn't an issue. Right? Right.

Alex Lindsay (00:13:43):
So it's also not

Rene Ritchie (00:13:44):
On WhatsApp in Brazil, you're a trouble

Alex Lindsay (00:13:45):
Social trouble. It's a us, it's primarily a us thing. And, and, and the thing is, Apple's not gonna do anything unless they're legally forced to do it, and they're not gonna be forced to do so of iMessaging. Cause they're, they're, they're like a, a tiny part of the market. And so the thing is, is that I don't, I just don't think that there's gonna be any, any real movement here. I think any, anytime a company has unless it's some, some larger thing that they're forced to do legally, but they're not gonna do anything on their own because you, you don't ha you, this is every company <laugh> you control will what makes you different? And you commoditize what doesn't and apple does the same thing with, with swift and U S D Z. They're trying to break into those markets. They don't control those markets. So they wanna support those and make them as open as they possibly can. Although the message is

Leo Laporte (00:14:28):
Yes, swift is open, but honestly, nobody uses it except on Mac. I mean, there was an attempt, in fact, IBM even had like a swift playground and stuff, but those, all of those attempts have kind of failed and well,

Alex Lindsay (00:14:39):
Well, but I'm not talking about whether they succeed or fail. I'm just talking about where they're initially, initially,

Leo Laporte (00:14:44):
That was the idea.

Alex Lindsay (00:14:45):
And it's still buts. Apple's still contributing to

Leo Laporte (00:14:48):
Is to really,

Alex Lindsay (00:14:50):
But yeah, I think

Leo Laporte (00:14:51):
They only compete when they have to. Right.

Alex Lindsay (00:14:53):
They want, but anytime, yep.

Leo Laporte (00:14:55):
Go ahead. That's your point though, is that they only do this cause they have to

Alex Lindsay (00:14:58):
Well, and the thing is, is that when you, when you submit to a standard or when you go more open, you are going to be slowed down by that standard. You know, that is standards are useful. I use lots of standards that are the, that are useful for me, but that's the cost. The cost is you can't innovate and do everything that you want to do. You can't make it. You can't keep on making it better, just the way you want. You have to now interact with everybody. You know, everybody else, who's doing something and try to figure out, you spend a big chunk of your time trying to figure out how it's going to work inside of everybody. Else's apple. Doesn't doesn't want to do that and doesn't need to do that. And so, you know, until they, until they're forced to, I think that the, I mean, sure that there's lock into it as well. And, but as a minority stakeholder in the phone market, in a very minority stakeholder in the messaging market, both globally and, and domestically, it's gonna be very hard to force them to, to change. I, I don't

Leo Laporte (00:15:49):
Know if that's fair to say domestically. I think apple is not a minority. It is in

Alex Lindsay (00:15:53):
The us. It's still, it's just, it is just under 50%. Not no under 50%. Every company though

Rene Ritchie (00:15:58):
Will take a, every company will try to keep proprietary and close. What makes them money and open up and try to disseminate what makes their competitor's money. It's like why web kid is open and swift is open. And why like ad sense is not, it it's, it's just a normal course of business. But this to me is, is like a fundamental issue of apple is gonna be the security, privacy first company and SMS is notoriously horribly outdated and flawed and vulnerable in a myriad of ways. They're gonna have to keep updating that have to, you know, like in terms of just exchange true to their own rhetoric, it's just, they're not gonna do it in January. If they're gonna do it like a WWDC they'll announce, oh, by the way, now we support and they're not gonna preannounce it either. They very, very,

Alex Lindsay (00:16:36):
If they support RCS, it's just gonna be a green bubble still. Like it's gonna be green doesnt matter,

Leo Laporte (00:16:41):
RCS green bubble. And it's not people pointed out. It doesn't have to be including ours. Technico once ours got a hold of Hirosi Commerce's statement is RCS is kind of an, an is actually the answer here to this. It's, it's kind of a, it's a disaster.

Alex Lindsay (00:16:55):
I mean, it's, it's

Rene Ritchie (00:16:56):
On old ideas point is that the telephone numbers are outdated. Like his whole thing, like he's trying

Leo Laporte (00:17:01):
Amma the author

Rene Ritchie (00:17:02):
Of, yeah. Yeah. He's angry about it because telephone numbers are outdated and shouldn't be used as a basis for any communications account anymore. And that's true. I mean, but that's like SMS has that problem already. So you're just, you're fixing a bad problem. You're not fixing the, the root

Alex Lindsay (00:17:14):
Cause of it. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:17:15):
I mean the, the thing tweeted RCS is a terrible, this is yesterday a terrible messaging standard because it's dependent on a carrier phone bill it's anti internet and should not be promoted or advocated for my Verizon bill is not my identity point. Well, taken apple lock in is bad. And the solution is carrier know, well,

Rene Ritchie (00:17:35):
He arguing is you can go into a library, use an email address to log to your RCS account. And wouldn't,

Leo Laporte (00:17:41):
If everybody in the United States would just get together and say, let's use WhatsApp and then, well, maybe not cause it's Facebook, but <laugh> yeah.

Rene Ritchie (00:17:48):
Isn't it amazing that broadly? Isn't it amazing.

Leo Laporte (00:17:51):
Go ahead. And isn't it amazing

Rene Ritchie (00:17:52):
That Facebook owns all this messaging and Google owns none of it, like Facebook owns WhatsApp, and that

Leo Laporte (00:17:56):
Was point on Technica. This is only cause Google fumbled. It

Rene Ritchie (00:18:01):
<Laugh> it's because Google fumbled it, but also they have almost no market share in the us and they're not almost, but they, they have a dwindling market share in the us. And that's why I think hero Rosi decided to, to weigh in on this because there's very little way to turn that around. If apple has all of these lock-ins so they don't care about this in Kenya or in like in Eastern Europe, because it's not an issue. They care very bad and I'm not saying it's wrong. I think it's important. And I think the reason, part of the reason they do have that problem is because IMEs just like the way it is Andy, go

Andy Ihnatko (00:18:25):
Ahead. Well I was just going say that if you're, I'm surprised that people are more concerned about carrier lock in where I can take my phone to any other, I'll talk about United States laws where I can take this to any other carrier. I want take my phone number with me and my text messages will follow me wherever I go, but they won't be concerned about, well, yes, we got WhatsApp. Yes. But that's a private corporation that if that follows your phone around wherever you go, is that a, is that a better solution? And my, my, and yes, RCS. Isn't perfect. It's not even, I don't think it's fully baked yet, but it, but you can add features to iMessage that will address a lot of the problems about being an iMessage user in a larger world and vice versa. You can have secure com communications. You can have even just simple things like long press on something to hold down a, Hey, I liked this have a better interaction of group chats it's I do. And I would also say that I I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what Renee is saying is, but this problem didn't just pop up with a wall street journal article. They could have started addressing this three or four years ago. We've talked about

Leo Laporte (00:19:32):
It. Weve been talking about the sad blue bubbles for years.

Andy Ihnatko (00:19:36):
Yeah. So I mean, we could, we didn't, so apple could have started saying, Hey look we have, we have two components to our, to our stock messaging gap. One is one that tries to be the most compatible and, and secure and useful messaging app that works just basically carrier or carrier app to app system, to system OS to OS the other is, Hey, if we recognize that you're using it's an iPhone to iPhone, we will add extra enhancements, but we're not gonna deliberately keep non iPhone to iPhone communications in, in the, in the Clinton administration. Just because we're afraid that if we give people a better messaging app, they'll stop, but they'll stop giving us their money. And I think that's pro that's something that apple has to respond to it these days. I

Alex Lindsay (00:20:16):
Just don't know if it, I just don't know if it's that critical an issue, because like, for me, I there's like two people or three people that I, that I interact with and being one of them over, over a green bubble. And mostly because if they have a green bubble, I immediately just move to another messaging platform. You know, I just go, okay, well let's do lock on signal or let's talk, you know, signal's my, my primary one that I'm, if I'm not using the iMessage. And so, but, or, or, you know, and I get a random couple messages I check into Facebook like once in a month <laugh> and say, sorry, I don't just check this very often. And then LinkedIn, I use. And, and so there's, there's cause I'm old, you know? And so the so the but I think that there's so many messaging apps in so many ways for people to communicate with each other.

Alex Lindsay (00:20:55):
I just don't, I don't know if this rises at this point to, I mean, I get that the wall street journal had a great article and, and and Google's very upset. We're debating that actually <laugh> I, I know I'm saying is they have an article about it, whatever, but what I'm saying is is that I just don't know if it, if it really impacts anybody, cuz if you don't, if you have that, you just move to another platform and, and so it, it's not like a big isn't this something, the only thing we have access to isn't this

Leo Laporte (00:21:17):
A big opportunity and clearly Google fumbled this, but isn't this a big opportunity for somebody maybe it's signal to come along and say to the us, we've gotta cross play platform solution does everything doesn't do. Okay. Maybe it doesn't do me. Emojis is that, is that, I mean, that's what Apple's trying to do is add things that only apple can do.

Alex Lindsay (00:21:36):
Emojis are pretty cool. <Laugh> <laugh> so,

Leo Laporte (00:21:42):
Yeah, but I mean, you can add, I mean, they've everybody snap and everybody has some sort of you know, MI emoji. That's not as maybe simple again,

Alex Lindsay (00:21:50):
App it's, it's a, it's a very fragmented market and people pick the ones that they wanna do. And that's part of the reason high school

Leo Laporte (00:21:56):
Students will for historic reasons that WhatsApp exists is because SMS messaging was so expensive around the world, right. That people didn't want use it. And here in the United States, we didn't use because it was so difficult because on early phones, before the iPhone, you had to use T nine and it was almost impossible to message. And they even had, you might remember, like on the tonight show they'd have races among T nine people and, and stuff I used to, or you used BBM. Right. I was like, that was, but that was another lock in, right.

Alex Lindsay (00:22:25):
I remember being in 2005 being in Africa and watching everybody texting the, I was like, what are they doing exactly? Like, what does this look, I had to

Leo Laporte (00:22:31):
An American, you like just sitting outside, not Dame before the iPhone came out and every French person was staring at their phone. I said, this is really bizarre. Going back to BBM, didn't have BBM in

Rene Ritchie (00:22:43):
At that point in time, you like, you could not work on wall street or date on wall street. That was like your

Leo Laporte (00:22:47):
Complete social social. Well, there was a moment in time when the us government said we can't let Blackberry fail because everybody in government uses blackberries. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:22:57):
Well, and I, and I think that Google, Google has a longer term problem, which is probably one of the reasons they're a little stressed about it is, is that, that there's this one experience that all these teenagers are using apple products you know, and not, and not really interested in the Google product. The other problem is, is that, you know, their, their Chromebooks have been a huge success business wise, but I, I can tell you, my kids hate them. Like they hate them. And so the problem is is that they just attach 'em school. Like when they get outta school, I don't know if they're ever wanna see a Google product again, you know? And so they have a, you know, while they've been successful at getting their, their products in there, the product lack vision, most of the time, you know, and they're, they're, they're utilitarian, but they're not, you know, they they're, you know, generally kind of mushed down to a lowest common denominator situation, which gets them out to a lot of places, but doesn't provide a great experience. And I think that that's been one of their problems that, and I'm short attention span. <Laugh> yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:23:50):
This is Ron quit. This is Ron's headline in ours, Technica after ruining Android messaging <laugh> Google says iMessage is too powerful. Please stop kicking our butts so badly, Google failed to compete with iMessage for years. Now it wants apple to play nice. An RCS I agree is not the solution. Honestly, I don't think Google or apple should have dominance in this. It'd be,

Alex Lindsay (00:24:10):
They don't love, they don't, they're not even close. Like nobody has any dominance, like other than WhatsApp. I mean, but I don't think that's, don't regionalized. It's, it's regionalized. It's broken up. I mean, nobody, this is a, this is a perfect example of a market that there is no, like there's no of there's some there's some people have larger percentages, but in apples and Google are definitely not one of them. So, you know, they're, they are the, it's a very fragmented market. There's a lot of competition. That's I have a full page on my phone.

Leo Laporte (00:24:38):
That's in the us. Right. And other countries everywhere. There are Donald. Well,

Alex Lindsay (00:24:41):
It's mostly WhatsApp, WhatsApp. Well

Leo Laporte (00:24:44):
I'm as somebody just at, in Brazil, if you don't use WhatsApp, you're outta luck. In

Alex Lindsay (00:24:48):
Fact, as soon as I lose leave the country, I have to be I'm on WhatsApp the whole time. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:24:51):
I didn't have WhatsApp till we went to Mexico. And then I realized the only way I could message Mike and Amira was through WhatsApp. So I had to install it and reactivate my account, but I, I don't want it to be Facebook either. I don't think that's a great solution either

Andy Ihnatko (00:25:05):
To me, to me just illustrates the, the scale of the problem that there, there are so many people that for my, my address book needs to make a note of, Hey, if you send a text message to this person, they will never see it. If you send this person wait a minute. Doesn't

Leo Laporte (00:25:19):
SMS work for everybody. I mean, isn't that the, no, no. I'm saying

Andy Ihnatko (00:25:22):
Well that I I'm, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm using this as a broad example where everyone has their, every one has that that messaging app or that that, that service that gets their full and daily attention. Right. I'm just, I'm just, I I'm just like Alex, where I will see, I will be shocked to find out that, like my aunt sent me this really beautiful message on Facebook messenger. So I didn't see it for like three and a half weeks. And I have to like call her and say, I'm so I'm sorry. I didn't see it. I didn't see it. I didn't see it. And they is the, and if, if we are talking to somebody who doesn't really check, they, they, they, they, they don't, they have turned off notifications on their SMS app, cuz they feel as though that's always gonna be a scammer.

Andy Ihnatko (00:25:56):
That's not someone who knows them, knows to get in touch with them via a signal or via WhatsApp. We have the situation where I think that I'm I'm, I think that I've sent someone a message, but I don't know if it's through a means that they're gonna pay attention to. And if we had, if, if SMS were, excuse me, if the standard carrier based messaging service were a lot more robust and had the features and the muscularity of a lot of these third party apps, we might see a reduction in this and I'm, I'm, I'm on the same boat with everybody else. I hate the fact that I've got WhatsApp. I I've got it frozen on my phone, cuz I just hate the, of any sort of a Facebook owned mobile app on my mobile device. It's just anathema to that messenger. I want my phone.

Leo Laporte (00:26:36):
Yeah. Messenger, same thing. Exactly. And yet, by the way, both platforms do all of the things that people want. I mean, they're great ways to share. I go to LinkedIn once a year and there's 80 messages waiting for you. Why just, I take you it's so funny. Lisa and I were just talking about that the other day people message her on and me too on LinkedIn. It's like why? Yeah. I never saw, I see it once a year. I wish

Andy Ihnatko (00:26:54):
I, I wish I could remember the story years ago when Elon Musk launched. I dunno whether it was SpaceX or Tesla or the, I think, I think he was staffing up on a big way on a new project and some engineer like tweeted out that. Yeah, I wish I wish I, I, I finally got cut up on my, on my on my LinkedIn messages found that I actually got like an email from Elon Musk, like top recruiter whoop like a year and a half ago. Oops. Ask if I'd like to join the new team. Oops. Like, oh dear, Hey speaking of

Leo Laporte (00:27:20):
Which maybe Elon should do a messaging platform warm, but it like, somebody could come a long way. It have to be somebody the blockchain, but it have to be somebody known

Andy Ihnatko (00:27:30):
Away from shipping

Leo Laporte (00:27:30):
A perfect product's that won't work. Either bike has just stepped down as CEO of signal. But I still think signal has great potential. It's great. They're worried about the commerce though. They're worried the commerce is gonna break it open and they're putting Bitcoin in it or a crypto in it, which I think is a, everything's got crypto in it now. And I really feel like that's such a mistake, but the AP is selling NFTs of their, of their photographs. I don't know what world I live up to. You know, speaking of which, and this relates to what you were talking about, Alex in, in terms of the power of platform, Moxi wrote it. This seems completely, completely different from what we were talking about, but it's not my first impressions of web three. He's talking about web three and it was a really good piece in which, but the point is, is actually you could say replace web three with IMEs or messaging.

Leo Laporte (00:28:20):
He, these are the important points he makes people don't wanna run their own. Never will. That's absolutely God's truth. Even big companies don't run their own servers anymore. Yeah. So, so that means a truly decentralized system is not gonna happen because people don't wanna run their own Sy servers. A protocol moves much more slowly than a platform. And this is to your point, Alex Alex, which is the platform. In other words, apple is, can develop so much more quickly than a protocol. In fact, he said, he gives us an example, IRC, which we love and use. He says, people are still trying to standardize sharing a video reliably over IRC. Meanwhile, slack lets you create custom reaction emojis based on your face. And that's the point is that a a, a single centralized owned company owned platform is always gonna iterate much, much faster than a protocol. So that's, that's why his position is why web three is hopeless, but you know, you're never gonna have a dis it's just gonna be another platform it's gonna be run by the big platforms. Many have said that including Jack Dorsey of Twitter, but I think it also to messaging, this is why RCS is struggling. And to keep up with Apple's messaging and really Google blew it because Google could potentially have done something with the power. I was on the messages. Now, the time

Andy Ihnatko (00:29:38):
Admittedly, I was contracting heavily with Google, for Google, my company

Alex Lindsay (00:29:41):
Was but when Hangouts was out, we were using it probably more than anything else. Me too. Yeah. With everyone. And it was a great platform. And you could switch from video to audio to, you know, you had all these things all set up and it was, it was probably the best platform out there across the board for all the things that you wanted to do. And then, you know, they had some internal politics, you know, and it ended like that's what happened. I mean, like it just, there was some internal issues and then it just, and then for political issues, it just

Leo Laporte (00:30:08):
Gone. So then whining about RCS. I, I have to agree with Ron, Mario is, is a little bit, you know, play, play me if

Rene Ritchie (00:30:14):
They'd won, they wouldn't be saying anything, right. Like if they owned WhatsApp and, and messenger and Instagram, DM equivalence, they, they wouldn't be saying anything.

Leo Laporte (00:30:21):
And Ron's point also, and I think is well taken is RCS is not a better alternative to anything. It's, it's, it's outta date. It's antiquated. There's a lot of problems with it. 

Alex Lindsay (00:30:32):
And the hard part is that there's so many players, well, when you have so many players and you're trying to a protocol, it's almost never gonna work. Yes. Like, you know, it's platforms. Yes. It's just gonna always be this thing that, that is because there's just, everybody has their own thing that they think is absolutely important. And I won't move forward if I don't have this. Yep. And it's different for everyone. So you end up with this kind of lowest common denominator moving at, in a crawl space. And this, this industry, all of these industries are moving too fast to be slowed down by, by that process. You know? And I think that that's the issue. No one wants, really wants to do it other than Google, because Google doesn't really have anything else. Like they don't have any solution there. So to look, they're not going to look.

Leo Laporte (00:31:09):
So yeah. The carriers have been dragging their feet. They finally came along, but it's not gonna,

Alex Lindsay (00:31:13):
Well, no one wants to be connected to the carrier because no one likes the carriers. Like that's the problem is we all are frustrated with our experience. Like I won't buy a phone from a carrier because be, you know, because I don't want to deal with them.

Leo Laporte (00:31:22):
In fact, that's maybe part of the apple success of the iPhone is that they were able to surmount the carrier hegemony and, and do their own thing. So, so history showed us that even though us was laggered in SMS, eventually we caught up, maybe now we're in the same boat where we're laed with centralized messaging. Cuz we have the same problem we have with SMS, which is there's all these different platforms. And there's no unified way of talking except SMS to everybody. Maybe do you think S apple become dominant or something will become dominant in the years to come just as SMS finally took over in the us?

Alex Lindsay (00:31:58):
I don't, I don't think so. I think they're just gonna keep on being fragment. Like you, I, I have a whole page on my iPhone that is

Leo Laporte (00:32:03):
Terrible. It's such a terrible experience

Alex Lindsay (00:32:07):
At this point. I just don't know how you fix it. We can say that it is a terrible experience, but you know, it's not, I don't, I, this is one of those ones that I just don't know if it's fixable, you know, like I think we, sometimes we, we can say, oh, we should, should be some way. But

Rene Ritchie (00:32:21):
Remember like Brazil would shut down WhatsApp for a day for some legal reason and the entire country would stop and they'd have to put it back up. Yeah. It's just like the power of these where WeChat in China is how they do, like you live on WeChat. Doesn't even matter about Android rifle very much anymore. You live on WeChat and the government's

Leo Laporte (00:32:34):
Control of it. Yeah. Right. Although as, as Moxi and others have pointed out that you know, WeChat as far from end end encrypted, I don't know if people care about end to end encrypted for a while. I was really pushing telegram, which I love has all the features and then some of a great chat app. I, you know, if everybody in the United States suddenly said, let let's use telegram, I'd be so happy, but it's not, it's not necessarily secure, but that's, you know, that's neither here nor there.

Alex Lindsay (00:33:02):
Signal's probably the most secure. And, and for the folks that I talk to at signal, a lot of us have like expiring, you know, like an expiring message because you're just talking. Right. And so you just let it expire every out every day.

Leo Laporte (00:33:13):
Probably the signal still is that it's tied to your phone number, although that they're working on a way around that, which is like RCS, right? That's the, the still the phone number is the, yeah, you need some universal ID, a unique ID, a good every human, or just allow email addresses, like, like just allow email addresses. It would solve a lot of this for people. Email's nice because you can, if you're at all sophisticated and even if you're not, you can create dummy addresses that you can use that are anonymous, but dedicated that kind of thing.

Andy Ihnatko (00:33:42):
That, that does cut both ways. If there are circumstances under which you really want you really wanna talk, you, you really wanna transport in which the person who's participating in this messaging app has at some point demonstrated that, hi, I'm a real person. Hi, here is a as address where I'm billing stuff to as establishing stuff like that, as opposed to hi, I know that I can get a free email address at Gmail do com. And so no, I pretend to be a real estate empire. Steve gives a

Leo Laporte (00:34:08):
Fan on top of the list, but it's there Steve Gibson, a fan of Thema, which by the way, I think the Swiss military just announced is the only messaging platform that can be used by the Swiss military, all kinds of mil. And they guard the Pope. Yeah, no, no. That's, I don't think the Swiss cards are actually Swiss. Are they? I don't know. Are they I'll have to ask fine. Robert would be so disappointed if, if that's not true, I'm gonna be so disappointed if they have nice outfits. Anyway, the Thema, T H R E E M a dot C H has a mechanism, and this is why Steve likes it for identifying people. You exchange a three a code. And if you feel certain that the person you're talking to is the person who's sending you that code. You can lock that in and then know that that's who I'm talking to without tying it to any central authority.

Leo Laporte (00:34:55):
The ideal way to do it is, is meeting in person. But there are other other mechanisms for doing that. That's kind of the problem with PG. You have to have PGP for a while recommended signing parties where you'd all get together in a room and sign each other's key. Oh yeah. No regular people don't do that stuff. Gonna do that to them. Yeah. And FMA might even be more complicated than needs to Berma is now open source. So the reason I did not agree with Steve, the three was the right choice is he really liked it. The dot system, they used of authentication, but they weren't open source at the time they have now open sourced their software. And I think Therma might be the, the right choice. But I could say that technically there's no, there's no way to convince family and friends to use it. I try to get my family used JY instead of zoom for two, two, whole years of pandemic. And it never happened.

Rene Ritchie (00:35:46):
VHS, be beta for a reasonably or people don't care about this psychology. They like the worst stuff often

Leo Laporte (00:35:51):
Wins. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (00:35:52):
They don't care. But one part of, I think something that's gonna be hopefully will be an influence on this. Is that more and more like national militaries are saying, okay, here are the chat apps. You are not allowed to install on any of your phones. Here are the, there's the only approved list of, of phones of apps that we're gonna, we're gonna get, not lot of those, not all those choices are going to be pro consumer cause I'm sure that the military themselves would like to be able to take a peek into their people who work for the, their phones from time to time as it is. But it does indicate that there at least there's a spreading awareness that you have to know who you're sending your message through the fact that it's end to end encrypted. Is it really end to end encrypted? Or is, or are they, is the, is the company that's running this service saying, oh well to, to make sure that we're giving you the greatest, highest quality service we will from time to time be able to take a look at your traffic just to verify that we're giving service possible. Yes.

Alex Lindsay (00:36:46):
Right. Well, and this is why, of course, everyone was so freaked out about Huawei. <Laugh> like, like that's, I mean, it was the real problem, you know, start putting those switches, you put those switches everywhere. And <affirmative>, that was a, that was a, it's a true, true

Leo Laporte (00:37:00):
Issue. So the biggest problem though, with using say Freema and the reason iMessages wins is if somebody's not using Freema, you can't message 'em through Freema, but with iMessages, you always have this SMS fallback. Yeah. And so that there isn't in theory, there is no one you can't contact. It's not perfect, but there's no one you can't contact with either. It's

Rene Ritchie (00:37:25):
Also the default, like it's, it's just built into your phone. Like you have no ID, like it's the SMS and you don't know anything about it. Yes. Yeah. And it's just iMessage and that's one of the reasons why like first iMessage for Android, isn't the clear win because people would have to install it and use it the way they install and use what app and people like their default. They like WhatsApp. They like what they're using already, but also there's just not that level of integration. And that's, I think the, the, we forget about this stuff, but like Scott forreal spent a long time trying to get a carrier solution before they made iMessage and he just could not get them to agree on anything. So he eventually made iMessage and even then the carriers were super angry about it for a really long time, because I believe NOK admitted once that SMS messages were the most profitable business, legal business ever devised by human beings at the height of their, their printing

Alex Lindsay (00:38:09):
Streams, they just

Rene Ritchie (00:38:10):
Printing money. Yeah. It, it was, they were charging 25 cents for, for carrier channel communications. So this, this is a very different world than when a lot of stuff was developed.

Leo Laporte (00:38:18):
Yeah. Well, I guess there's really no answer.

Andy Ihnatko (00:38:23):
Yeah. So, so, so long as we don't throw up our, our throw our hands up in the air and say, it's an unsolvable problem. Let's not try to improve things for, for again, the, a basic technology that benefits so many people in so many different ways. There are always gonna be ways we can improve it. If we're not looking for something that's perfect. If we're not looking for something that will re the, the one message, the, the one true ring drew to, to, to, to hold upon us all, let's just keep making things better. And I, I do think that a message, an app like iMessage can be made better. I do believe that SMS could be made better

Rene Ritchie (00:38:56):
And you know, the real answer's gonna be right. It's gonna be iMessage plus where for $3 a month, Android and iOS users get gold bubbles, then you're like you gold bubble

Alex Lindsay (00:39:05):
Gold. I think the, I think the real, the reality is S part of the reason that all these other messaging apps have sprung up is because RCS and, and SMS and all these are so far. And, and I think that, you know, I, that's why I just don't think any of these, these, no, one's gonna bother with these other formats because they're not, you know, they're, they're already way past it. And, and, and why would they go, not just apple, but all the messaging,

Rene Ritchie (00:39:27):
They didn't have the infrastructure. And the costs were extreme, like outside didn't America, it was incredibly expensive. And the infrastructure was terrible. And the claritys to not cooperate, what's that BBM. And then what's people used to buy just BBM plans for their phones. 10 years ago. It cost almost nothing, especially in emerging markets. And then there was like WhatsApp plans. That, that was the only way that they could communicate. Cuz even voice was way too

Alex Lindsay (00:39:47):
Expensive. Yeah. Yeah. So I just don't, I, I think that, that I, I, I do think that this was solvable a decade ago. I don't think it's, I, I do. I do think gonna continue to just be something that's fragmented. I, I think that there's, there is not, you know, that's, you can't fix everything. And I think this ones gonna be hard to fix.

Leo Laporte (00:40:05):
I'm gonna hold up. My Freema QR code for anybody <laugh> now you, you know, no one else could fake this. I should probably put my

Alex Lindsay (00:40:14):
Face in, in front of it, but me emojis, you're not gonna, you're gonna be giving up your emojis.

Leo Laporte (00:40:19):
I don't like, you know, the, there is one use for emojis. I really like when you, when now on the, on the modern I use that as my pick, you use your emojis and then when you put your finger on wrong, it goes, it makes fun of the

Alex Lindsay (00:40:34):
Best feature, but that's literally the

Rene Ritchie (00:40:36):
Best, the VR avatar. Like that's why they built it.

Leo Laporte (00:40:40):
Is it gonna be my VR avatar? Cause yeah, what's nice is you can change it. So I just put a mask on, I had a, a Mexican hat on me when I was in Mexico and a Sora <laugh> I can change it. I love that

Rene Ritchie (00:40:51):
When you're in the apple, metaverse that's gonna be Julio. Oh.

Leo Laporte (00:40:54):

Alex Lindsay (00:40:54):
I gotta tell you if, if, if people listening, haven't done this, if you change your, your your avatar, you know, your login image to your MI emoji in, you know, if you're on Monterey, it's like, literally in my opinion, I know there's been a lot of new updates in Monterey. It's like one of my best feature. How do you, it's the one that brings me the most joy. I, I mistype like three or four times. Every time I go into a new computer, I'm like, oh, let's see what he does. Let's see what he does. Let's see what he does. He,

Leo Laporte (00:41:19):
He's got a real personality, rolls his eyes.

Alex Lindsay (00:41:22):
He's like, and it's not the same. It like, it's like a random, it's a, you know, he's like, sometimes he's really disgusted with you. And sometimes he's just like, no. And, and so you just, it's like, it's like, it's like a little slot machine of, of reactions and it's so much, much fun.

Rene Ritchie (00:41:33):
So it's I, I, I wouldn't put up with that with a coworker. I don't know why anybody else thinks that they should put up with it on something that thousand, those restaurants that yell at you, Andy, the new

Leo Laporte (00:41:43):
Cruelty. Let me see if I can find I, I showed this before, but I'll show it again. This is an example from Daniel, Y of what your MI emoji does. If, if you see it follows your mass around and it's not

Rene Ritchie (00:41:55):
A great, and he looks down while you're typing. So down while you're typing, he's like, look there like what you yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:42:00):
Scrutinizing you. Yeah. And if you get it, if you do it wrong, it, it shakes his hand at you here. What? He's gonna be unhappy with your password. Oh, it didn't do it. I didn't do it. <Laugh> oh, it's so good. So that fun. I love that just doesn't have dollar

Rene Ritchie (00:42:15):
Scale beards, but that's not a solvable problem.

Leo Laporte (00:42:17):
Yeah. You can use both from

Rene Ritchie (00:42:18):
The command line and from

Leo Laporte (00:42:21):
13 oh, somebody, this is maybe this is an apple video. I should probably see if I can find the apple video. It sounds like this is an apple video. Yeah. Cause anyway, it's voice. 

Rene Ritchie (00:42:31):
It's so much fun. It's really fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It, but it's also a really good way to boil water, to get people used to seeing themselves in an avatar, digital, 3d, augmented reality, virtual

Leo Laporte (00:42:40):
Way. You think that's really, that's the secret agenda of all of this is to get, get, no, it

Rene Ritchie (00:42:44):
Wasn't design like apple, often people thinks apple have a master plan and then you talk to them. We're like, oh no, no. Like we had no idea, but it was super convenient that we had this thing that we could use, you know, already and waiting for us.

Leo Laporte (00:42:53):
I think thiss tech industry kind of works. Isn't it? It's like, oh, there's a good use for it. If it weren't for Christmas Macina, we wouldn't know about hashtags. If, if Twitter finally realized the ad sign meant something and started to implement it all of that. Just serendipitous. Serendipitous. Yeah. I maybe I, I'm not gonna up hope maybe the forces will align and at some point we'll have a universal messaging system in the us as the rest of the world does it'll be email. Email. Yeah. Whoa. There's a solution. I

Rene Ritchie (00:43:31):
Hate email standard.

Leo Laporte (00:43:34):
It's a standard you're right. People think that they're communicating with me when they email me. No, <laugh>, you're just, it's just a mountain over there that you're adding your bit to. That's all. <Laugh> the

Rene Ritchie (00:43:44):
Price like the pickle does such a good job. Navigating phone trees. I wish it would just navigate Gmail for me. Like, cause like so much Gmail. I don't need to respond to just let the pixel land, I'd leave it on and just let it be my mail dummy for the whole, the whole year.

Leo Laporte (00:43:55):
Hey, let's little break for a word from our sponsor Mac break weekly on the air. We did find a little something. Thank you. Wall street journal for that stupid article <laugh> gave us, gave us food for thought and Ron Amad in ours, Technica as well. Our show today brought to you by new Relic. If you are an engineer, assisted men, if you have to Mo monitor a performance of an app or a network, you know the name, new Relic. I know you do. Just, you know, you've, you've been through this nine and PM. You're you're, you're winding down. Maybe you're think thinking about, oh, I'll settle down to an advent of code problem or something. And then your phone buzzes with an alert something's broken. You're already thinking what could be wrong. And then think about this. This is a nightmare. Is it the back end?

Leo Laporte (00:44:40):
Is it the front end? Is it global? Is it just one server? Is it the network? Is it the cloud provider? Do we have slow queries on our Mongo DB? Did I introduce a bug in my last deploy, the mind reels? And now your whole team is scrambling from tool to tool messaging person, to person to find and fix the issue. And it's all because in your, in this fog, this cloud of unknown this cloud of mystery, wouldn't it be nice if you could clear up the cloud and actually see what's going on. This is what new Relic is all about. And what's sad to me is according to new Relic, only half of all organizations currently implement some form of observability for their networks and systems. That means the other half is in that fog, that shroud of war, that mystery, where they just don't know what's going on.

Leo Laporte (00:45:32):
The report showed how maintaining network observability continues to be an issue for companies around the world. But it won't happen if you get new Relic or get the boss to get new Relic, actually what's cool about new Relic. You can install it right now for free. You don't have to get the boss's permission. You don't have to write a check, no credit card even required. So you can start using it now in fact, I think that's what, how a lot of our organizations start using new Relic and they realize its value and they expand new Relic has 16 different monitoring products. Normally you have to buy them separately that you can use to see your entire stack in one place you get of course, application monitoring. You can build right into your apps, a 8:00 PM unified monitoring for apps and microservices. If you are, if you're using Kubernetes, you know, probably I hope you know about pixie.

Leo Laporte (00:46:21):
You can instant get instant Kubernetes observability with pixie, very important on those clusters, distributed tracing. You can see all your traces without management headaches, so you can find and fix issues fast. You've got network performance monitoring. So you don't have to guess where performance issues start. You can ditch data silos for a systemwide correlated view. It's just a breath of fresh air. You're gonna be so, so happy. More importantly, you can, you can actually pinpoint issues down to a line of code you're. If you use the APM, your symbol table's available, it'll actually say, you know, it's this function, this procedure, this object that's dying on you. That's why the devs and ops teams at DoorDash use new Relic. Github uses new Relic. Epic games uses new Relic. It's more than 14,000 companies, new Relic to debug and improve their software. And for the rest of you, I just, you have my deepest sympathy.

Leo Laporte (00:47:20):
<Laugh> I don't know how you, how do you live? Whether you run a cloud native startup or a fortune 500 company, it'll take you five minutes to set up new Relic. And as I said, you can get access to the entire platform and a hundred gigabytes of data free forever. And that's a lot, by the way, without a credit card free forever. Look that 9:00 PM call is just waiting to happen. Get new Relic before it does sign up at new Relic, w R E L I break, N E w R E L I C. New break. Time to get out of the dark ages and, and into the light new break. We think of so much for supporting Mac break weekly. I told him, I said, I said, no, you know what? There are lots of apple people who would use this, who you Mac break folks. You show 'em. Now you show 'em that I didn't make a mistake here. New break. Oh, let's get back. Nerd AR huh? Where the nerds are, where the nerds are. That's right where the nerds are. So apple is gonna have to bend in South Korea. They are going to start allowing an alternative payment system because south Korean court said, you have to, unlike here in the United States that that decision did they say it? Did they say it like Jo, like like

Rene Ritchie (00:48:46):
VE Stallone in judge dread, like we are the law.

Leo Laporte (00:48:48):
And then apple just had to, they say at like in the squid game, <laugh> do do this or else. Apple will allow alternative payment systems in South Korea complying with a new local law, that bands app store, by the way, it was called the anti Google law, cuz it affects Google's Android play store as well. And Google has already done in November, in, in November, Google implemented it, apple, you know, slowly as possible bands in app store operators from forcing their own in-app payment systems. The law went into effect in September November Google pledged to provide an alternative payment system on its app store in Korea, a slightly reduced service charge. Apple says it's going to provide an alternative payment system at a reduced service charge compared to the 30%. They have just turned in their compliance plans to the Korean communications commission, the KCC, but they did not say dates. I'm sure. At some point Korean law will start saying, you know, you, you gotta do this, but they are moving forward anyway. Or at least apparent moving forward to do that. Yeah. That vulnerability. Yeah. Google apparently. Well see again, I don't know if 15%

Rene Ritchie (00:50:02):
And 11%, if it's off, if it's off the store, but you still have to pay them commission. I think that's how

Leo Laporte (00:50:06):
It works. Yeah. Isn't that what apples said is, well, we'll just bill you for the yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:50:10):
Yeah. And good, good luck. To everyone who gets audited, like, you know, like that's the thing is that you're gonna get, you know, like for, for companies that, that go down this path, I mean, they're gonna, if they make any significant amount of money, apple, there's gonna be legal cases around it and whatever they save, the game theory is if you price it enough down

Rene Ritchie (00:50:27):
That nobody's gonna actually do it. Like they have the, the appearance of freedom, but it's like, oh, over 4%, I'll let apple handle the taxes. That's not a problem.

Alex Lindsay (00:50:33):
Well, and I think that, I think that on a smaller market, having this happen might be good for apple. We'll see how it goes. But you know, the user experience is not gonna be as good, you know? And, and, and this is a place where it is fixable for, for users right now, which is that they don't, you know, the, they, you know, this is something that's being pushed by the developers, but not by the users, you know? And, and this is the user user experience is gonna suck, you know? And because now, I mean, anybody who's had an app that on apple TV that makes you go and sign into something else and file it, fill a bunch of stuff out. I mean the future. Yeah. That's welcome to the future on your phone and people. And so we'll see, we'll see. I mean, my guess is that people are gonna do this and people are not gonna like it. So

Andy Ihnatko (00:51:13):
Well, we, we, we already have this problem with other areas of the app store experience. So I don't have a problem with that. Also. I think we, if Apple's gonna continue to boast how much money that they're making for developers, they need to acknowledge that developers are theirs customers as well. And if this is something that, that a lot of developers are asking for, they should be able to provide it. And thirdly, I, it's not. So as long as they're not forcing developers to make a choice that they don't want to make, I think it's all to the good, I mean, if I, in the abstract, I don't deny that if, if I were, if I were a small to mid, mid range developer, I would much rather have apple to all the accounting and just simply take a check. But that if maybe that would not be what I would decide, maybe I would be part of a larger company that wouldn't make sense for me. It's all about does it make sense for apple to make this a requirement? If not, then they should they should make that an option.

Leo Laporte (00:52:08):
Actually maybe this is coincident, but apple announced how much revenue is generated for develops developers in the app store for 2021. And it's it's you know, it's about 5 billion a month, 260 billion since the app store launched in 2008, that's up 60 billion from the figure a year ago. So Mark Herman says that you know, to do the division, do the math, this was an announcement it made yesterday as part of some of a summary of the performance of its digital services across 2021. The company said the app store generated a new yearly record for app store developer earnings last year.

Andy Ihnatko (00:52:47):
Yeah. But as, as we found out last year, we're not talking about every developer reaping a banana, we're talking about a small percentage of one aspect of the app store marketplace. And even then, it's not as though all iPhone users are making those huge contributions to that bottom line. It is a very, very disproportionate amount of iPhone users that are contributing the, the, the, the King's ransom of that percentage. So it's,

Leo Laporte (00:53:16):
It's not Simpsons tapped out donuts is really what it is. <Laugh>, let's be honest about this. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (00:53:22):
But yeah, that's, that's what I'm going on about, I think for, for apple used, I don't think that it's it as easy for apple to make that as a boast. It, it still works as a demonstration of here's how well that our services are, are making here's the contributions that the, all that work that we're doing is making to our bottom line so long as they don't claim that. Yes, you see, we're, we're a benevolent organization that creates jobs and creates new business opportunities. That's like, excuse me. <Laugh> but they

Alex Lindsay (00:53:50):
Actually do testimony. I mean, that's, they're, they actually do produce a lot of opportunity. Like that's the only, that's the only problem with

Andy Ihnatko (00:53:57):
That. Not, not the way, not that the way that, that they would,

Alex Lindsay (00:54:01):
60 billion

Leo Laporte (00:54:03):
Billion goes to epic and a, and goes to small guys. It's still some, it's not,

Alex Lindsay (00:54:07):
But it's not there's. I mean, the thing is, this is there's a, I mean, again, anecdotally, I know a lot of developers that are either making some side bar or not working anymore. <Laugh> because of what they made, that they wrote out of a whim and put on the app store now, you know, its the right market and the right thing. And every market has a lot of people that don't, that don't figure out how to nail it just right. <Laugh> so whether you're, you know, talk about like the life, the life, talk about the investment and how long a and how long a restaurant lasts, you know, like, you know, like it's, there's a huge investment in restaurants and most of them go under, you know, and so the thing is, is that, and so you don't have to, you don't have to go buy a, a restaurant or even a food truck flow capital

Leo Laporte (00:54:44):
It's you literally

Alex Lindsay (00:54:45):
Brain time. And, and, and really like now, now that you can take swift playgrounds and publish to the app, pretty amazing. Yeah. You know, the thing is, is that you can find little things that you wanna solve and are you going to retire on it? Maybe not, but there are a lot of people making a reasonable amount of money, you know, on this, on this market. And it is as someone who's, I mean, I've sold stuff and, and on many different platforms, the currently the iPhone is one of the best opportunities for an individual in

Leo Laporte (00:55:14):
The world, especially for scammers. I posted Costa Erio has already posted another, just in response to this how to make 13 million on the app store. This is a guy who like, as you said, Alex is probably on the beach, make a basic app. People might be searching for, for example, a volume booster charge, an absurd $10 a week, $520 a year for an auto-renewing subscription. That's easy to sign up for, but much harder to cancel, buy lots of fake reviews on a day daily basis and profit <laugh> right. And so this is a specific example he's using here. And I know cuz my mom signed up for a memory cleaner <laugh> and I became aware of it when I saw the weekly $5 bill. I, I knew that she'd gotten scammed. It's an easy thing for anybody to get scammed on. You know, and if you're not paying attention to your credit card statements, it might take a while for you to notice. I

Alex Lindsay (00:56:16):
Will say that at this point, though, the Google, the Google play store, I won't buy anything. That's not a major brand because I just have no idea what I'm gonna get except

Leo Laporte (00:56:23):
Okay. But if Apple's gonna make this big deal about how curated the story is and how careful we are, these things should not continue to happen. And I'm, I can't for bringing these up.

Alex Lindsay (00:56:34):
Sure. Like he's such a dork anyway. So, so anyway, so the like he just like, he takes all, he, he goes into this thing like, well, you see, like everything has an exception, everything, you know, like, like there is nothing, there is no place that you're a hundred percent safe. There is no place where you're a hundred percent secure, you know? And the idea that we're not, I mean, the, the fact is the curation makes it much less. Is it going, is it going to make it to zero? That's impossible. You know? And, and are there going to be problems that you have to deal with on a market this size? I mean, anybody who thinks that you can just get rid of all of these things is naive. Like

Leo Laporte (00:57:08):
Just like, like anybody I counter you, Alex, anybody thinks apple is happy about this because it gets 15 to 30% of the revenue is naive. Apple is not incentive to fix this.

Alex Lindsay (00:57:21):
They are incentive to fix it because the people

Leo Laporte (00:57:23):
Complain. Why does it keep happening?

Alex Lindsay (00:57:25):
Because, because, well, again, it is a, it's impossible to make something completely. I, but everyday

Leo Laporte (00:57:30):
Moderators review, worldwide app store charts for quality and accuracy, mm-hmm

Alex Lindsay (00:57:34):
<Affirmative>. Yeah. And, and they put, and you know, the

Leo Laporte (00:57:37):
Apps you love a place you can trust.

Andy Ihnatko (00:57:39):
You know, if, if, if apple wants to dunk on Android for doing this, they really have to have a, they, they, they, I, I, I sometimes think that this messaging denies the fact that as I agree with you, Alex, this is not a, this is not a, a problem that can be 100% solved. And I also think that you're free to not buy stuff off the Android off the Android. I don't place over. I don't. I think I, I, I think that, I think that's an, a re really extreme reaction. I don't think that's really warranted, but it's, it's, it's my, my difficulty is always with apple, trying to dunk on other platforms, mostly Android, but platforms as well, when if you're gonna dunk on somebody else. Okay, fine. Let's open up the floor for Q and a cuz there's a lot of questions that apple well, and I would say it's E easy

Leo Laporte (00:58:26):
To spot an app. That's charging $5 a week. That's a,

Andy Ihnatko (00:58:29):
Yeah. I don't

Leo Laporte (00:58:30):
Think that's a hard thing to find

Andy Ihnatko (00:58:33):
That that seems like something that you, you, you want a human being to look at that and say, okay, is this a Salesforce enterprise scale app that is designed to basically make people a hundred dollars a week based make based on their productivity and ability to follow through on projects, or are they looking for a memory cleaner? And that does seem like something that should be flagged really, really quickly. There's

Rene Ritchie (00:58:54):
A couple of things that were, that I thought was really interesting with this. Some people did look into it because this was like an especially egregious example. And it turns out, and again, like you can talk about any one specific example and it may or may not help fulfill the pattern. This app was a legitimate app. It was not only picked by apple editorial review. Many times it was featured in a bunch of tech publications. And it seems like it's under new ownership and they didn't like the amount of money it was making. And the person has a background in internet advertising. So they basically decided to scam as much money out of it as they could. But it's, it's been updated as a real, like legitimate people really liked it app for many years. So that's probably why it didn't get in like the initial scrutiny it deserved.

Rene Ritchie (00:59:30):
But also like you, when you start arbitrating price, like if apple comes in and says, your app is not, and this, this is also Neil Cy, Bart's been making these arguments too. If apple starts coming in and saying, well, your app really only worth $5 a month. And your app is really only worth $10 a month. It it's like, it's one of those things where we get angry at Twitter and Facebook about it's like, who are you to arbiter, but also why aren't you arbitrary? And it's a very difficult line to walk between allowing enough freedom and dictating enough control. And the last thing I'll add is I've talked to apple engineers and Google engineers on Google will play and YouTube engineers about this problem in general. And the consistent answer I've gotten. And these are all really good people like these aren't like people you think are like, like enjoy the scam aspect of it.

Rene Ritchie (01:00:11):
These are like really caring, considerate creator first you know, user first people is that at this scale of user generated content, it is almost impossible to get every edge case. So they work on the middle. Like they try to make sure the middle is as solid as possible, knowing that they'll, they'll ban some people by accident on one end and they'll allow some scams through on the other and they'll keep adjusting where that middle is because it's always changing. Sorry. And they're facing incredibly well funded, bad actors. Who's only mission. It is to get these apps and these Amazon and the minute they change something, those apps are changing things too. So it's continual cat and mouse and, and whackamole. Yeah. And they put a, a ton of resources into it, but they just will be honest and admit that it is not a solved problem at their scale yet. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:00:56):
AB absolutely. I, I, I would, I would address one point though, that apple already is making those kind of value judgments for the, the, the, who are there. There is an argument to be made as silly as it is that well, who are you to decide that I, I can't have a fart app on my iPhone. It's like, if you're rejecting my app, cuz you don't think it adds value. Maybe if there are a 500 people amongst the entire user base that thinks it has incredible value, who are you to decide that those people should have access to an app that they will want? So it's not, it's not a great extension to, to basically have them look at problems like that. Especially given how old this kind of scam is where companies will swoop in find a, a, an app that has probably played itself out in terms of its earning of potential for its original creator.

Andy Ihnatko (01:01:39):
Say, Hey, we'll give you $150,000 for, for rights to your app. Then basically guess what? We're gonna rebuild it. We're gonna have all kinds of trackers in it. Now we're gonna have all kinds of malware in it right now we're gonna change the pricing schedule. So you're absolutely right. And I've had this, I've had the exact same, isn't it a little bit heartbreaking when you're talking to engineers and executives who are working these problems that know that all they can do is control the rate of the flooding. They can't stop the flooding at all. They know that and if they, if they do their jobs really, really well, all they can do is stop the rate of flooding from increasing incredibly. So it is, it is a heartbreaking thing to take a look at. However, it is something that whenever you find an incident like this, you are hoping that it is lighting fires in the right places and making them ask questions about how can we do this a little bit better?

Andy Ihnatko (01:02:27):
And once again it is, this is, this is a partic, this is just one of my little buttons. That again, if a company, whether it's Google, whether it's Facebook, whether it's Twitter, whether it's anybody wants to dunk on its competi saying, oh, we are more private or, oh, we are, we do a better content creation than these other people who are not being responsible. Again, you have to open up the floor to Q and a, and that are people who know the whole breadth of the story are gonna start asking questions about, okay, but what about this? If you are saying that this is that people, this is a defining character of your service over your competitors, can you absolutely dis can you absolutely back that up without having to be, be be sued and have a deposition process, which we can actually get access to your internal emails.

Rene Ritchie (01:03:13):
I would just have someone monitoring that dude's Twitter account and then just yo, any app that he tweets about almost immediately <laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:03:18):
I mean, I gotta point out

Rene Ritchie (01:03:20):
And monitor the top

Leo Laporte (01:03:20):
100. The verge wrote this article in April of last year. This is not a new problem and I don't see how, why apple, couldn't say let's just check everything that charges more than say, you know, $5 a week or make, make it $10 a week. And just check it for

Rene Ritchie (01:03:38):
The top 100 in each category. That one person who's every job. It, his every day to look at the top 100 apps, because those are the one

Leo Laporte (01:03:44):
I have really question. I really question their desire to do that. I, I just don't think they, they want to do that. And I don't think if they don't do that, I think they should stop saying you could trust us with the app store period. And I, you, you guys, I know, I know Alex, you

Rene Ritchie (01:03:59):
Disagree. No, I did ask someone at, at not apple. I don't wanna say who it is because I don't wanna put anyone in a bad light, but I did ask someone fairly high up at a not apple company who has a similar problem. And they're like, why can't you just look at the top 100 of that? And he is like, because that's the top 100 that got through, like we stopped the 300,000 other ones that didn't get through. Good. And you only see the ones on Twitter that break through. Good. And we try to stop those too. But like it's, it's one of those things where the, the failures are port it and then the successes never

Leo Laporte (01:04:22):
Are. Yeah. You tell that to my mom. Okay. Just tell that to my mom. I agree with you. I just, it's not people are, are spending hundreds of dollars unnecessarily and apples getting 30%

Andy Ihnatko (01:04:35):
And, and, and to, and to, but to apples credit, I really, really do enjoy the fact that they're handling subs that they in. And that it's a, it's usually, it's usually possible for me to simply say, oh, I didn't know I was being charged for this boom guess, guess what? Next time you try to bill apple for this stuff, you're not gonna be, you're not gonna be allowed to permit to, to, to get that charged through. I've I've

Alex Lindsay (01:04:56):
Had a lot of them where I've, where I've complained about it and say, and you'll say like, when did I've gone back and said, these last six months, I just didn't notice that I was getting charged for this. And it gets sent back to me. <Laugh> like, it just goes, apples are like, okay. You know, and I, I don't know what happens to the developer on the other end of that, cuz they probably apples probably just take just closet away from them and hands it back to me. So it doesn't, you know, like, so I think that it, I've had a lot of pretty amazing experiences with just being able to complain about the fact that I had this thing. And there's a, you know, a whole lot of system on your, on your thing to do that. So

Leo Laporte (01:05:23):
It's logo should be let the buyer beware. It's up to you to find this, ask us for a refund. We'll give

Alex Lindsay (01:05:29):
It to you. Well, I, I, I, again, I, I just think that caveat naive, trust us pretty naive when you have it, when you have a platform, let's you publish from a swift playground you know the number it's just the sheer numbers are on.

Leo Laporte (01:05:42):
Okay, fine. Apple should say you can't trust us. The sheer numbers are overwhelming will do our best not you can trust us.

Alex Lindsay (01:05:50):
There's a difference. But they do well. I mean, if they, if they

Leo Laporte (01:05:53):
Can't do the job, they shouldn't claim they're doing the job

Alex Lindsay (01:05:57):
By the, by that you should say nothing is safe ever, ever, like nothing is safe. Well like if you, if you say, if you can't do that, there's no, there's no, there's nothing safe. If, if you, if you, if you don't allow for, you know, a 0.01, I mean, you shouldn't get on a plane because I've seen news where planes go down, you know, like, like it's, but the percentages are probably not that far part, you know? Like, you know, and so of, of how many scamming apps and how many and how many planes go down and probably pretty close in percentage. And so the thing is, is that, so if we say that we shouldn't fly because, or we shouldn't get in, you definitely should not get in a car. No, but Delta

Leo Laporte (01:06:29):
Should not cause cars, our planes never crash. And they don't by the way, <laugh> well, cause

Alex Lindsay (01:06:37):
No, they

Leo Laporte (01:06:38):
Don't, by the way. And apple does, they say, you know, you can trust us. Everything's safe. This is good, but don't worry tells you. And when my mom wants to buy an app, it must be safe. Cuz it's approved in the app store. I don't, I think I completely disagree with you. I think apple is abrogating its responsibility and somebody you can't, it's not doing apple or consumers in any favors to say, oh, you're doing the best you can. You, you keep on keeping on. Well, I would say they're doing

Alex Lindsay (01:07:03):
Significantly better than everyone else. Now you gotta get, I, I, this is me acquiescing to this because if I, if it was me, I'd have apple curate everything. I'd have them, you know, like go very slowly. It'd be hard to publish. And then you'd have all the developers upset that it takes them so long to get to their app because there'd be a two year a wait to get to, to publish. All you have to do is write a consumer.

Leo Laporte (01:07:23):
It charges more than five bucks a week. Let's have somebody look at that. And if its a hundred thousand apps, well, how many do you think it is? Is it a hundred thousand apps? It could be. It could be. So then get, get five people to look at it. I think that's doable. Apple is a $3 trillion company. I don't think we're asking too much for that. I don't, I really don't. I, I,

Andy Ihnatko (01:07:44):
I, I do. I do think that we should have reasonable expectations that I, I, I do believe that it's never something they're gonna solve completely. However, I also, but I agree with most of what the rest of what you're saying that again, take, take, take the drinking game. The, the drinking game phrase is dunking on the, on competitors. <Laugh>, you know, again, if Apple's gonna make like this, make this a reason for people to buy their platform, instead of someone else's, they are, they are helped to be held to a much higher degree responsibility than any of their competitors. And also I also don't like the, when the argument is made though, well there, they only have so many people they can put on this task. So hire more people. If it becomes a problem, it's

Alex Lindsay (01:08:22):
Have you ever hired more than a hundred people, more than a hundred people? Have you ever hired more than a hundred people? Cause I've hired 30 and I can, you know, in six months and I can tell you that it was, it is a horribly hard process to get do, right? I think Apple's hired more than it actually. No I'm saying, I'm saying what I'm saying though, is that to pick the right people for the right team and to get them to fit in and not have them be problematic and not have all the other things. It's not like, just to say, oh, we should hire a thousand or 2000 or 3000 more people that are technically sufficient to do what we're trying to do inside of a highly competitive market. Good luck. You know, good luck with that. You know? And so the thing is that when people say, oh, they should just hire more people. They are not, they have never done it. Nobody who nobody has ever done that at mass ever, ever says that nobody only people who've never had I'm so

Leo Laporte (01:09:05):
Adept at making excuses for apple. I just don't understand why you no,

Alex Lindsay (01:09:08):
I'm not. You choose. There's lots of things I don't like about apple. I just don't. I just think that this is not, I would just, it's just not, you're not being practical. Like, you know, like the thing is is that there are, are, these are, these are things that are, these are hard problems and anytime someone says something simple, you generally know, they don't know about it. They don't know about it because if they knew about it, they don't understand how complicated it

Andy Ihnatko (01:09:24):
Was. Okay. Now I, now I absolutely need to respond to that. I sure know I have not hired 30, 3,000 people at one time. However, over my 20 some actually years as a tech reporter, I have had one on one conversations with CEOs of companies that have 10,000, 20,000, 30,000, 110,000 people worldwide. Some of those conversations do get into operations, things like that on, on situations that are not dissimilar to that. And the acknowledgement in so many words is the, that it's not a question of being able to do it or not being able to do it. It's a question of priorities or not priorities, which is a rational response to that, to, to that sort of question. However, no time at no point, have I ever raised that question and got the answer that no, it's just too difficult for us to hire 2000 people that have the respects that we want every single the can't I'm I don't wanna drift into things I'm I'm not allowed to talk about, but when a company is launching an entirely new product category that they have never even been tangentially involved in before, they're essentially launching a company with with 3000 people with that as a priority for this enormous company, find those 3000 people.

Andy Ihnatko (01:10:39):
So I will dismiss your insistence that the fact that I haven't hired 30 people means that I am unaware of the limitations of hiring what can and cannot be done by a large company that has a sense of its own priorities and its resources. Cause

Alex Lindsay (01:10:54):
Cuz so many cuz so many people are having such an easy time hiring people right now. It's like it's I hear it's super easy right now. The job market's super open mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Leo Laporte (01:11:02):
If I were gonna try to make some money right now, I would create a clone world app in the app store that had a yearly subscription. Oh wait a minute. Would admit already nine of them every day should be an NFT that we mint Leo. That's how we maximize revenue on this. <Laugh> Wordle the app, which is not created by Joseph, Josh, Wardle, who, who said all his, the entire time it's gonna be free and no ads Wordle the app is 10 to dollars a week. By the way, just in case you wanna wanna play this, you know, <laugh> just, just in case,

Andy Ihnatko (01:11:37):
I don't know what it's my God, that, that developer, if they, he, they must have a heart of purest 24 karat gold. Cause they must get their inbox is filled with hi, I'll give you $800,000 for, to, to, to take over this code project for you. We would like to load up that, that website with all kinds of stuff that would make us cut billions of dollars. And because we're evil people, we can sleep late at night. Nice

Leo Laporte (01:12:02):
Thing about actually it's only $30 a year. I take it back. It's cheap. The nice thing about it is you can do more than five letter words. So that's cool. You know, you're paying, you're getting something of value and you get a nice little, little trophy and you can share it with your friends. So let's take a little break, come back. There is more to talk about. In fact, if you wanna get upset, let's get upset at T-Mobile I'm I'm upset <laugh> but first a word from better help. Maybe I need this right now. Maybe I do actually, you know, I have, I don't wanna breach come confidence is I have close friends. Who've used better help therapy online. Who've gotten such great value of it out of it. In fact, the other day I was talking to somebody who said, oh yeah, I found out about this incredible service through my therapist at, at at better help.

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And that is available to all she's used in it for son. It's really kind of a neat story, better help. And it, by the way, the timing couldn't be better as we are stuck here inside once again better help if something's preventing you from achieving your goals. If something's interfering with your happiness, if you feel anxiety in the pit of your stomach, check out better break better help is a place to, to a licensed professional therapist. It's safe. It's private, it's online. It's so easy. You could start communicating in under 48 hours. Now I wanna be very clear. It is not a crisis line. So if you know, that's not what we're offering here. It's not self-help, it's just pro it's pro professional counseling done securely online. You can and send a message to your counselor. Anytime you'll get timely and thoughtful responses, you could schedule a weekly video or if you don't wanna be on camera, phone sessions, that's fine too.

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I want you to start living a happier life today. I don't want you to suffer. There's no need to. If you're a listener, you're gonna get 10% off your first month. Just go to better break. This is a sponsor I can really support better help. B E T T E R H E L P better help com slash Mac break over a million people have taken charge of their mental health and Mac break weekly folks. You're not immune either. It's okay. There's nothing wrong with it. Why suffer when you go to better break, that's almost say about it. Better break. I'm a little miff with T-Mobile. Maybe they maybe there, maybe there's a Twilio. I'm just a little miffed. Well, you know, apple announced this really great thing called private relay, right? It's basically kind of a little bit like a VPN that you can use in your smartphone with your iPhone.

Leo Laporte (01:16:31):
It's kind of automatically on if you're an iCloud, you get it, isn't it. I think it's automatically available. I, I think the user has to turn it on. It's not on by default. Beta and beta is not on by default. No, once it's public subscribed iCloud plus to get it iCloud plus not just any iCloud account forage. Yeah. Yeah. So, but you, if you're paying for iCloud, then you have it, right? Yeah. and I get, since I use I'm getting it T-Mobile is blocking it. <Laugh> they're gonna start blocking it with oh two and a whole bunch of a lot of European carriers as well. Right now they're saying it, it, the reason we block it, customers who choose plans and features with content filtering, for instance, parent parental controls do not have access to the iCloud private relay because these services won't work otherwise to if, if, if you want them to work as designed, you can't use relay, but all other customers have no restrictions. So if you have content filter, I don't have content filtering.

Alex Lindsay (01:17:31):
That's not, but that's not what they're. I mean, that's, you know, it's silly as, as you know, I mean, it's, it's because they don't, there's two things. One is buy on you. Yeah. Or they're selling your data at, in mass. And number two is they pack shape. So they wanna be able to, to force you down to a different, like, for instance, if you open up a, a bit video app, they wanna make sure that you're forced on the manifest down to a four 80 P signal, not the highest res that's available to you because that would use their network, you know, harder. And so, so the there's a little bit of an argument for the packet shaping thing that they do, but not really. I mean, they you're, you're paying for that connection. So you should be able to get what you want to get. The content filtering is obviously at red herring. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:18:11):
Well, yeah, it's, it's, it's hard. There's, I'm, I'm kind of sorry that T-Mobile got lumped into what a lot of the international carriers are doing. The international characters, characters, carriers are simply saying, we want, we want no part of this for the reasons that we've discussed, that we, we make a lot of revenue and we can have, we can make a lot more profits if we have absolute access to to your traffic. Right. However, T mobile, they did quickly clarify that we're not shutting it down for everybody. We're shut. They, they, I, I, until somebody who has more knowledge about this about how T-Mobile packages, these services can explain to me how those services work, I'm willing to at least give them a little bit of the benefit of the depth, cuz they're not, they're not shutting it down on everybody.

Andy Ihnatko (01:18:51):
They're saying, if you have these services that kind of require us to take a look at what your traffic is so that we can at your request block content that you don't want to, that you don't want to, to, to find its way to your phone. That's legitimate. I mean, even Wikipedia after the after the service was announced, was saying that, okay, we're gonna have to ask people how they feel about this because as we're using IP identification, as a way of validating that the per the editor who's trying to edit or manage this one of these Wikipedia pages is who they say we, they are because we recognize this IP address. If you're hiding your IP address, we can't validate that. So we are considering forcing people to turn that feature off. If they can wanna continue to edit certain pay ages, it's, it's gonna, it's causing certain knock on effects.

Andy Ihnatko (01:19:34):
So it's not as though every time there's a restriction on a service or, or provider decides to restrict access or use of the service, it's necessarily them being scummy. However, they do have to, I think the, every service that does this has to demonstrate that no, there is an actual, legitimate, verifiable, technical reason, and why we think that this service causes a problem for certain products that we're creating. But again, mostly it is going to be, we wanna manage our network our own way, which is limited kind of neutral evil, because there is a, there is an argument that we want to be able to shape to, to have you not stream necessarily 4k on your phone. If you don't, you don't have to. But mostly again, to prevent them from trying to profit here, when you can just simply flip a switch on your iPhone and lock out a lot of what the what's possible there. If they

Leo Laporte (01:20:22):
Not you'll do, in fact, I have to update this because as the show, yeah, I'm saying it's a bug. Yeah, mark. Goman just tweeted about 45 minutes ago overnight our team identify, this is a T-Mobile response to mark Goman overnight. Our team identified that in the iOS 15.2 release some device settings default to the feature being Tod off. We've shared this with apple. This is not specific to T-Mobile again, though, we have not broadly blocked iCloud private. They, they say iCloud is relay. Private relay is only blocked. If you have turned on content filtering, otherwise it should not be turned off. So that does makes

Alex Lindsay (01:20:57):
Sense. The Europeans, on the other hand, they're

Leo Laporte (01:21:00):
Doing it and well, and I have to point out T-Mobile is so telecom. So they are in Europe as well. And I think they are doing it in Europe. I don't, I also turn

Rene Ritchie (01:21:09):
It off myself sometimes. Like if I'm uploading a big file, sometimes it's just taking forever. I turn off private relay because that relay has extra whatever roadblocks and the way

Leo Laporte (01:21:16):
It just goes. I guess it's important. It is. I, a lot of tradeoffs note that it's not perf that there's a good reason. Apple, it's like a VPN.

Rene Ritchie (01:21:22):
I have the same issue,

Alex Lindsay (01:21:24):
Basically easy. It's just easy VPN. Like it's that's that should call it easy VPN. Not quite well. They don't because

Rene Ritchie (01:21:30):
You can't, you can't tie, what is it? Look, geo hop like you can, for

Leo Laporte (01:21:34):
Some VPN to get, in fact, at least it does country. And you can say, and in fact, I have allow it to be a little more specific. Like it knows I'm in petal for brewers, right? Like you want

Rene Ritchie (01:21:45):
Your Starbucks, you don't want Starbucks to go to Boston. You want Starbucks to come.

Leo Laporte (01:21:49):
Exactly, exactly. <Laugh> so yeah, there are, there are always gonna be a little bit of some drawbacks using a VPN. And so those are, I guess, biting apple a little bit,

Alex Lindsay (01:21:59):
But I think that with, with all of these, what we're seeing, you know, apple will put it up and then people react to it and then apple will tighten in a little bit. And what you're, I think you're constantly seeing is apple constantly looking at private and not necessarily, you know, again, closing all the gates at one time, but they're just slowly just moving the gates. <Laugh>, you know, very, very slowly. I love it. This is all part of a bigger program of, of app transparency. Yeah, sure. It's not, doesn't have a lot of teeth yet, but if you start com, if you start looking at all of these as, as a unified process, what seen is apples slowly closing everything in, you know, and making it more and more private and, and harder and more and more opaque to, you know, advertisers and everyone tracking us. Yeah. But, but it,

Andy Ihnatko (01:22:39):
It does, it does show how difficult this process is going to be. If, if it starts, if people start using this feature and it, and things stop breaking, if the things that they're counting on using stop working, that's not a result that, that apple wants. If suddenly Facebook will not log them in automatically. If the Facebook says, oh, we don't re you're logging in from a brand new IP address, therefore we, we're gonna demand two factor authentication right now to make sure that you are who you say you are. That's gonna be a reason for a lot of people to say, you know what, I'm gonna turn this feature off and I don't have a need to turn it on ever again. So there I think there's a reason why this is an extended beta. I don't think they're necessarily having trouble implementing it. I think they're having trouble making sure that people will turn that on, get the benefits of it and not find a good reason to turn it off

Alex Lindsay (01:23:23):
Well. And, and every of these becomes kind of a chicken, you know, you know, a game of chicken where you basically decide, you know, oh, I can't use this service. Do I care about my security and privacy? And I'm just not gonna use that service anymore. In some cases like Facebook, someone might not choose that, but they might choose it. Like, for instance, when, and when things start, you go, you might choose those services over or the privacy, but as things move forward, you know, when I, when I started to, when apple pay came out, I, I prioritized places obviously that that had apple pay, you know, I just, it was like, cool. It was something I wanted to test. And, but I still pay in a lot of other places at this point, if I go to a retail place and they don't have apple pay, I just set the objects down, leave, like, literally, I don't even take them back. I just leave 'em on the counter. Like you should do that. And I, and I walk out, <laugh> like, you know, and so you know, the only place I'll pay for anything without apple pay is the farmer's market, you know? And, and so and so that's, so I think that, again, these are progressions of things that, that happen over years. You, and so this is just step one

Andy Ihnatko (01:24:29):
Though, and they'll, and they'll find out ways to still make money off of people, even if private relay is a thing that that they don't, they can't work around. So sure.

Leo Laporte (01:24:40):
I have to say Brett con five, and I were talking before the show about how much we love our new M one MacBook pros. I bought the base model of 14 inch thinking, oh, I'm sad. I'm not gonna get the max. And, and I think it's fantastic. It's the best laptop I've ever had. So he kind of agrees. So I have to say on the one hand, I'm a little sad to report that Intel has stolen Jeff Wilco, <laugh> from apple. On the other hand, if I really think about it's good, it's good because Intel should be making such great chips too. It would be a good thing. Wilcox Wilcom took the Nuvia guys and now Intel's got Wilco. I mean, Apple's gonna spread Silicon across to the world. Wilco came to apple eight years ago from Intel to to really design the M one architecture he's director, a system architecture was director of Mac system architecture. He's moved on, he's gone back to Intel. He's an Intel fellow in the design engineering group. He's a CTO there. And so he'll be involved in designing systems on a chip for Intel. 

Alex Lindsay (01:25:45):
It's, I mean, the reality is we, we have to remember that the trajectory of a chip, the part that he does on a chip is probably 3, 4, 5 years out. So, you know, Apple's probably not probably, you know, most of those things have been already figured out as far as what needs to actually happen there. So the, does it changes Apple's trajectory, probably not a lot. However, for Intel bringing someone with that capacity and that history into it really get, gives them a huge shot in the arm to be competitive for five years, maybe, maybe 6, 7, 8 years out, you know, cause that's just from the time people start doing designs to the time it ends up in Silicon and ends up in mass production is a long time.

Leo Laporte (01:26:22):
And, you know, know, I just kick myself because I should have become a chip designer, not a podcaster <laugh>, but <laugh>

Andy Ihnatko (01:26:29):
Would've lost to all of us. <Laugh> Ketle

Rene Ritchie (01:26:31):
Chip kettle chips,

Leo Laporte (01:26:32):
Leo or Ketle chips style all time Pringles. I was thinking, but no Tara chips, we mentioned last week that apple has apparently being paying a hundred, $8,000 bonuses to engineers to keep them from leaving. Intel has a $2.4 billion fund to attract new talent or old talent. Yeah. Facebook too. I mean, so yeah, you gotta figure Jeff probably cashed a pretty big check. Good

Rene Ritchie (01:27:00):
Time to be an A-list engineer right now. Yeah,

Andy Ihnatko (01:27:02):
No, that's a that's if, if only the, the entire workforce everywhere was treated this way, would you have you, have you have a, an amazing set of gifts now, you, now that you've done this wonderful project, you're, you're that much more valuable on the open market. So if you, if your current company is not giving you the entire package that you deserve, there will be another company that will be more than happy to, to, to more than, about to pay for your package. Eric, just giving you a third it's

Rene Ritchie (01:27:27):
It's usually better, right? Like they can justify like a, a pillaging bonus more than they can usually justify salary cause a

Leo Laporte (01:27:33):
Pillaging bonus hop around. Yes. I'm taking

Rene Ritchie (01:27:35):
Pill. People who hop around get more money because like your people under and like your, your compat understand it. Like if, if, if Bob or Sarah gets a bigger raise than I do, I'm mad, but if they have Bob's area in and I understand that to pay xray, to attract them, I'm not so grumpy. That's just the way

Alex Lindsay (01:27:50):
This works. And I think that he's more valuable at Intel than he at apple. I mean, apple probably had an opportunity to match something, you know, to, to do it. And they probably made a decision that, that they, they didn't need his services as much as Intel was willing to pay him. I'm sure. For, and I'm sure that it was huge, you know, and, and the thing is, is that for the, you know, and engineers at all of these companies are getting, I mean, a million dollar, I mean, 180,000 is cute, but I know few folks that get bigger stock bonuses than that. <Laugh>. Yeah. And so and so that's not a big, that's not a big stock bonus to be thrown at somebody to hang, to make sure that they don't go anywhere. And so and so the, those golden handcuffs can get really thick, you know, and, and so especially slow vesting ones and, and, and that type of, so I think that again, and I don't, I don't think apple necessarily looks at Intel. Intel probably looks at apple more as a competitor because they're losing all their business. I don't think apple is that worried about Intel catching up anytime soon, apple really is serving its own market as effectively as it possibly can. And it, it's not like it's, it's not head to head in the same way. So, but Intel definitely has to come up to speed. And the only thing that

Rene Ritchie (01:28:51):
We're adding is that, they're sorry, Andy,

Andy Ihnatko (01:28:53):
Go ahead. I was just gonna quickly off of that. Say I, I don't, Intel is in a, in a very, very different sort of business than apple is apple is building specific chips specifically for actual products that they're gonna be building from end to end. And they don't have dominance in the market on any of those laptop or desktop markets, whereas Intel, they are, they are creating the grease for the gears of industry. They have to build a chip set, the chip sets that are gonna satisfy every time type of computer. That's gonna be made, supporting every single type of industry that's all over the world. So they Def they definitely are missing a few clubs from their, from their bag and definitely hiring people that can give them some of the skills that they're missing right now. But that doesn't mean that Intel is, is a doomed company because benchmarking on, on an on an M one MacBook is much, much higher than on a comparable Intel based power, excuse me, laptop. And

Rene Ritchie (01:29:47):
One thing I is also like you see this a lot in the industry. It's like, why, why don't all stores just copy the apple store? Why don't all stores just copy Ikea? Why don't all chip companies just copy what apples own with apple Silicon. And it's usually not the engineers that are the difference is often like a philosophical thing beyond what Andy said, which is really true. Apple doesn't have to work as a Silicon merger. Like they just don't. And the realities of not having to satisfy the various different needs of a bunch of other vendors is huge, but also apple invested 10 years in this architecture, like you J like I'll joke that apple keeps using the same bionic term again, but it it's the architecture. And they, they put down and they iterate year after year. And they put up with headlines saying apple can't innovate when Apple's like, we're not trying to innovate in 10 years.

Rene Ritchie (01:30:28):
We want to hit this target. And that takes very patient steady progress every year. And we've seen this now with the Nuvia people who left apple and went to work at Qualcomm, and we may see it with Wilcox and Intel is unless you have that sort of management, like Johnny Saji was willing to invest in this low slow wide approach, which was the complete opposite of what Intel wanted. They wanted a fire hose in every chip set. And they thought apple was dumb and, and Qualcomm did not understand 64 bit when Apple's like, it's not 64 bit. We, we got armed to write us our own ISA, basically, you know, this, these were all decade long bets and a lot of them don't have the patience or the, or the management to set those up. So what they're able to accomplish there is gonna be different, but hopefully good to see. Yeah. And I think lot there's go ahead, Andy.

Andy Ihnatko (01:31:16):
The, a lot of what what you, but everyone needs to understand is that when you have a company as large as apple, as large as Intel, as, as large as Tesla, as large as any large innovative company, it's the, the MacBook is not necessarily Apple's product Apple's product on an ongoing basis is the process, the resources and the procedures that can create a product like that. And so that, we're just seeing the end result of their, of Apple's eternal project, which is to make sure that whatever they want to do it can execute and execute on that plan in a very, very far forward basis. And even when a company on that scale has a failure, per se. Yes, it's a, the product is a consumer failure. However, the process that allowed this thing to be created and developed and

Leo Laporte (01:32:00):
And, and manipulated is actually makes the company better and stronger makes the next thing better and stronger.

Alex Lindsay (01:32:05):
And I think that the, the, the thing that, that makes apple different as well. I mean, to, to just ride on that I completely agree with that. And, and the, the Apple's ability that they write the operating system and design the end product and write many of the apps that are being used, allows them to, you know, this, the Silicon is a different beast for them completely. And it's all part of them owning that. And I think that we'll just see them continue to take over their own Silicon across the board. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if we get to a point where the, the iPhone is like a chip. Like there's like a, a chip and a handful of little components that stick to the chip, you know, and, and they just print them out that way. And so I think that that's where I think that Apple's gonna keep on going, because it gives, just gives them more control over their, over their destiny.

Leo Laporte (01:32:47):
I'm just checking to see if you wanted to buy a M one MacBook right now. I thought you're gonna say cleaning cloth. I don't know if the cleaning cloth is back in stock, but it's back of

Alex Lindsay (01:33:00):
Today. Oh, do you have a cleaning cloth? No. Renee. Do you have a cleaning cloth? I

Leo Laporte (01:33:05):
Think one came with the XDR display, but I'm yeah, it did. I don't know if that's the same, not one as the $19 version that they're, I've heard that they're very

Alex Lindsay (01:33:13):
Nice. They've

Leo Laporte (01:33:15):
Gots logo is embedded in it, you know, heard they're

Alex Lindsay (01:33:18):
Very soft.

Leo Laporte (01:33:20):
They better be. I wanna park. And I think the

Alex Lindsay (01:33:22):
Word is, I think

Leo Laporte (01:33:23):
The word is supple it's so it's good. So there probably were like 8 million of them in a container on a ship somewhere outside of long beach in the Los Angeles port just stock and they just arrived. So you can order 'em now. Yeah. Yeah. M one pros, if you get the stock model, not a BTO February 2nd, this is on a 14 inch M one max, March 4th. And that's for the stock. If you add a little memory it's no, it's still March 4th. That's good news. So, because that's a,

Alex Lindsay (01:33:50):
You're already building, those are all in custom builds. Like once they start, what about if you give it the, the, the next one up 32 core?

Leo Laporte (01:33:57):
Oh, let's go all the way. There's 60 custom build.

Alex Lindsay (01:34:00):
Yeah. This is

Leo Laporte (01:34:01):
How long it takes of the building. Yeah. Eight terabytes of storage, only 6,000 for a 14

Alex Lindsay (01:34:06):
Inch. But man, that's, that'd be a great,

Leo Laporte (01:34:08):
You know, I am, I have to say I was so sad cuz I wanted to get it right away so we could talk about it. And so I had to get the, you know, base model five, 12 gigs of storage for crying out loud, like a, like an animal animal, but it's really great. And you were absolutely right about the Meg safe adapter, Alex. Love it. Isn't it so nice. Love it. All those ports. I haven't used the HTM I port, but it feels good knowing it's it's there, but you have it. I have it. I'm still using USBC. I don't hate me. I'm still charging by us. Don't miss the touch part. My laugh it's hysterical because at CES last week, Dell effectively announced an PS with a touch bar instead of functioning. My gosh, it's got an electronic bar. <Laugh>. It's like, like steal

Alex Lindsay (01:34:55):
Mouse. Someone started copy back then at, they finally came

Leo Laporte (01:34:58):
Out the other end around to relat it, I guess,

Andy Ihnatko (01:35:01):
At least, at least it's not the only, the only windows, laptop being put onto the market. Okay. Let's let's that's true.

Leo Laporte (01:35:07):
You're not forced to get it. Although I like the PSS. I'm just a little disappointed that it also doesn't it has it something about the tracked. It's a little weird with it because it doesn't, it doesn't, you can't see the outline. So it must, I don't know. There's some sort of weird track pad, but you know, apple, you did it, right? You got rid of the touch bar. You, I kept the fingerprint, which works great. And you kept the, and made even made the escape key even a little bit bigger.

Alex Lindsay (01:35:36):
It was a huge cover. And you wonder whether that's a Johnny ive did a lot of great things, but you wonder if him moving on, created the space to like correct for form

Leo Laporte (01:35:46):
Of a function it's it must have been. I have to think a battle inside of apple. Yeah. And Johnny says, no, no, we want sin. We want light. We want touch bump.

Rene Ritchie (01:35:54):
It wasn't just Johnny. But it was a battle. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:35:56):
And then somebody else, probably somebody uses Emax was saying, no, <laugh> you need escape key for crying out loud. And that person finally is somehow by sticking in. Well, I think it helps.

Alex Lindsay (01:36:09):
It helps that all of us were complaining about it. Like everybody was complaining about listen

Rene Ritchie (01:36:12):
TLDR, like to my understanding, the TLDR was that that point when Steve came in and slapped the iPad down on the table and said, why can't the Mac do this? It set this like series of dominoes down that was like, why don't we make the Mac more like mainstream, like friendly so that, and they sold like the, the Mac that we hate. You know, I don't hate it as much to some people, but like that Mac sold so much, like there was just such a market for what I'm gonna call fo. I don't wanna call it fo pros that's mean, but people who self self-identified as a pro, but didn't have the same needs as a traditional pro. And that was a huge battle because the Mac department is filled with people like us, traditional Mac people who were not happy about it. And over recent years, they've now they've now taken those reins back and, and you can see that obviously in the product line.

Andy Ihnatko (01:36:57):
Yeah. But the thing, the, it bummed me out the most about the, about that MacBook was simply that they didn't make it all that much thinner. They sacrificed so much all in the name of style and they didn't really seem to think any of these decisions through. And that's the, I will, I'll keep, I'll keep saying it that the first time that I used the, a Mac with a touch bar and I had to take my hands off the keyboard and, and almost say out loud to myself, it really thinks I'm gonna take my hands off the keyboard to autocomplete the word there. I'm gonna <laugh> that's what these engineers thought I would be

Rene Ritchie (01:37:32):

Alex Lindsay (01:37:34):
Yeah. My biggest problem was it was just the constant constantly hitting the Mike for dossing

Andy Ihnatko (01:37:38):
It's a hell of a drug,

Rene Ritchie (01:37:39):
But they, I just been update it. Right. Like they announced it in 2016 and they did nothing to it since then. And, and I never wanna be more invested in a product than the company that makes it, they didn't add haptics. They didn't add any, like it was, they announced it, they didn't left it and that's not a good sign.

Alex Lindsay (01:37:52):
They didn't add the most important feature that they could have added to it, which is turn this darn thing off. So I don't keep on accidentally hitting it with my hands. You know, like, like there was no button that just said, turn it all off. Like just, just make it black. Like

Rene Ritchie (01:38:03):
That's what I needed. I could doom on it. It was fine. Kidding. Oh, they're

Leo Laporte (01:38:06):
<Laugh> I'm looking for actually, I can't wait to see what they do with the MacBook airs. Cuz there will be a beautiful, elegant yeah. Choice in a couple of months. I think mm-hmm <affirmative> that will have the one and it should be gorgeous. And that's gonna be, and too maybe. Yeah. I might have to get another if

Andy Ihnatko (01:38:21):
They make <laugh>. If, if they, if they take a, if they take an iPad, an iPad pro with a smart keyboard and basically said, let's make the MacBook air exactly like this, except for, instead of being some sort of eliminated plastic cover, it will be all aluminum. Oh my goodness. Would I? It would be so hard for me not to just simply say, I want this, I have the money for this. So I'm going to own this. Shut up, Andy, shut up dad, voice. We're owning this. I'm

Leo Laporte (01:38:50):
Just saying I couldn't be happier with that. 14 inch M one pro that's saying,

Rene Ritchie (01:38:55):
If is apple like might look like there's this, this the chiller, everyone knows the Tim cook doctrine, but the chiller doctrine was always that every product should be pushing so hard on top of the, at the product on top of it, that it forces that product to reevaluate its need to exist like gladiatorial combat. And then those products need to reinvent new ways to stay important and push back on the upcoming products. And I would just love if Apple's mentality was all those people on Twitter who keep asking for Macs on the iPad, we're gonna make max so good. So good that nobody who wants Macs would ever wanna buy anything, but a Mac like if they could make that their mission statement might be super happy. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:39:31):
And there is somebody in the chat room who says, how can you ignore the fact that Intel just announced at CES 60 new CPU models that are faster than the M one

Rene Ritchie (01:39:42):
Faster is easy. Like the key to beating any apple Silicon is just add voltage. Cause Apple's never gonna add voltage. They will, they will reduce voltage to increase battery life. So if you tweak voltage, you will beat apple on any benchmark ever. But it's like it's benchmark at that point. Like it's, you know,

Leo Laporte (01:39:57):
Professional power users don't use laptops, which is a little bizarre. Okay. <Laugh> and he also says programmers could get a buy on an Adam processor. So he's obviously, it's always been easy

Rene Ritchie (01:40:11):
To be, but been

Leo Laporte (01:40:13):
Easy to be. And I think, you know, great. I'm gladder like, I mean, Alder lake is fed fast and hot. And, and you know, what, if you want a laptop that is fast and hot and has no battery life, you can get a fast for Canadian winter.

Rene Ritchie (01:40:26):
I miss, I missed my Intel,

Andy Ihnatko (01:40:28):
Not okay. Well that's, that's not necessarily fair. I mean, they, I like what they're doing with the Evo platform. Think that what they could come up with, but what people, what ASOS something they're us could be shipping by the end of the year could be really, really very interesting there. I think they made the line of chips, the really broad line of chips that they need to make to serve all of their customers. Yeah. The problem is that they, they, they can't, they can't show off this one commercial laptop with a ship date and a price to it that shows off everything that this platform can possibly do. They have to do a reference platform and then bring other people onto the stage to shoot here's here's. Here are people who are interpreting, who are showing the, the, what can be done with this new platform. Here's what we're doing with our new with our new class of GPS that you can actually buy, unlike buy at list price when we actually ship. Em, do you think apple so

Leo Laporte (01:41:12):
Tempted, cuz they're gonna do desktops faster desktops this spring and we think are by June anyway, WWDC, do you think they're tempted to say, well, let's not worry about the power profile on the desktop and really show 'em what we could do. If we don't mind using, you know, a hundred

Alex Lindsay (01:41:28):
Watts' would be surprised don't would, can stack 'em even four, like

Rene Ritchie (01:41:32):
A quad do M one max will have roughly the same power profile as a Alder lake running at higher frequency. And I think you could fit six, like in a, in a overclocked Alder lake power profile. Like it would be really hard to, to, to go any hotter than, than Alder lake does.

Leo Laporte (01:41:50):
<Laugh> but I'm just saying if they wanted to it make a desktop, I wouldn't be surprised if they, that wouldn't be the, the fastest desktop out there that Intel could just, even with a Zon couldn't couldn't compete with, they're gonna just make a

Rene Ritchie (01:42:01):
Smaller Leo, you know, that like, if they're not,

Leo Laporte (01:42:04):
That're gonna make a smaller, it's not, it's not really their goal. Is it now for Alex, I make a G4 Q for you, Alex, a Mac pro. I mean, I don't know if you, even if you even need that much performance, but

Alex Lindsay (01:42:15):
Yeah. I mean, for some of the stuff we're doing, especially when you start talking about photogrammetry, I mean, I have a, and we've talked about it in the past and I have a one any time someone says they've got this computer,

Leo Laporte (01:42:24):
Cause I wanna try it on this M1 pro and just to see, cuz it's not supposed to be the, you know, the fastest by any means. I'm just curious.

Alex Lindsay (01:42:30):
Yeah. I'll send it to you. What's

Leo Laporte (01:42:31):
The timing on, give me some idea of what the timing I should looking at. Is it four

Alex Lindsay (01:42:35):
Days? My, my my iMac will, my, this is an older iMac that I first started testing it on. We'll go for three days before it crashes. Okay. <Laugh> like, it just, it just, you know, doesn't <laugh> and yeah, it's like, and, and I, I haven't seen anybody even on a Mac pro I haven't seen anybody do it faster than I think, I think the Mac pro even doesn't always make it to the other end. It's it's, it's only if you turn all the dials all the way up, this is like

Leo Laporte (01:42:58):
A, is it a memory issue? I mean, if it is, I, I only have 16

Alex Lindsay (01:43:01):
Gigs. We think it's a heat, well, it's memory. You may have trouble with 16 gigs to, to manage it, but we think it's a heat issue. Is that the, literally the chip can't maintain maximum throughput, you know, for three days and then it just goes, oh, I can't do this in anymore. You know? And so give up, so, and, and you should, I mean, you saw, you saw when I, I sent it to Justine and she put it on the, on the Mac pro and she had like, literally the Mac pro was maxed all the way. It was maxed all the way out. And, and that has also to do with the fact that meta shape utilizes the hardware of the, they should really well as they should. So, so they, they stack it up. And so, so it's, it's, it's a pretty but I'll, I'll send you a link it's you

Leo Laporte (01:43:37):
Can play with it. I don't know if I really wanted to give up my computer for four days and then have it crash. You just, you

Alex Lindsay (01:43:43):
Just run, you can run it overnight and see how far it gets kinda thing, you know, that's good.

Leo Laporte (01:43:48):
But undoubtedly, there'll be a Mac pro and apple will, I think apple will still want the thermal envelope to be low and will wanna keep it 

Alex Lindsay (01:43:58):
Low. I think, I don't know. I mean, I think that Mac pro I could, I could imagine them really turning, you know, just not only putting on a dye, but having multiple, you know, chips or something. Yeah. Eight core. Yeah. Multicore. And, and so I think that you could, you could theoretically do a lot on a Mac pro where you go, we don't care. Like if someone's gonna, if someone would spend $60,000 with us, they can spend $60,000 and we're gonna give 'em a computer that just screams.

Leo Laporte (01:44:20):
It strikes me though that one of the things apple has done, which is really interesting is instead of saying, let's have the general purpose architecture be as fast as possible. They create, they have the ProRes playback chip. If you, if you offload the things that are the most burdensome to dedicated Silicon, right. Then it's not, then you kind of have this nice.

Alex Lindsay (01:44:40):
I mean, pro that chip, that chip is unbelievable. Like the, you know, like the, it's still a thing that keeps me, I, I haven't bought the, the laptop yet, but I still want to, just because of the, just because of that ProRes chip. Yeah. You know, that, you know, being able to export I'm I was exporting stuff in ProRes, the other last night and it was taking, I was like, if it really was 10 times faster, this would, this would've not been so painful. And it also

Rene Ritchie (01:45:01):
Doesn't hit your CPU. You can keep working while it's rendering. Right. No, it's amazing.

Leo Laporte (01:45:05):
You can, you could be on Twitter and <laugh> Photoshop.

Rene Ritchie (01:45:08):
I'm doing Photoshop now. Like, I, I could barely surf the web on my, in when I was rendering ProRes. Now I can, I'm doing Photoshop thumbnails while I'm

Leo Laporte (01:45:15):
Rendering. Right. So my son, as you know, does a lot of TikTok certainly would benefit from an M one. Max, should I wait for the desktops though? Should I say Henry? I don't want to get you a laptop. I want to get you the mini instead. Or does he have a pressure? I

Alex Lindsay (01:45:30):
See. What does he think?

Leo Laporte (01:45:32):
I think he probably, I want portable because, you know, he wants, he was just down in LA doing a collab. Yeah. I would sandwich guy and stuff. So

Alex Lindsay (01:45:39):
Maybe I would probably I'd probably get the laptop. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:45:41):
It's fast enough.

Andy Ihnatko (01:45:43):
Yeah. It's, it's more and it's, it's way more versatile. I, but I, but I'm with you. I cannot wait for apple. I wanna get a mini for sure. The, the, once they once dispose themselves of the idea of here's, how sleek and colorful and com and, and, and how long it has to work on battery and how how cool that has to run. I want them to just get rid of all that and simply say, here is a boring aluminum box that we're going to fill with as much power as we can possibly put into this thing. So that thing you didn't even want to experiment with, like, as Renee says, I'm rendering something, but I'm also, it doesn't mean that I, I have to walk away from this computer. I still have three quarters of a really, really powerful computer left to play with. That's the sort of stuff that I've got two grand in my pocket for. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:46:29):
Yeah. You think, how am I, how, what are we gonna see with the Mac mini? Let's get some speculation here. The

Rene Ritchie (01:46:38):
M one pro and the M one max versions,

Alex Lindsay (01:46:40):
I think. Yeah. With 64 gigs of, of Ram. Yeah. Yeah.

Rene Ritchie (01:46:44):
Basically replace the Intel. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> space, gray, Mac mini. We have right now. And a lot

Leo Laporte (01:46:49):
Of a lot of connectivity, a lot of ports. Yeah. Yeah. Four, four screens, four screens. And it turns out not

Rene Ritchie (01:46:57):
Having an H DM. I 2.1 doesn't matter because it doesn't mean anything anymore. Those numbers are totally randomly general that

Leo Laporte (01:47:03):
Hysterical. That's really scary. You talking part Leo, you're talking about what the H DMI folks, the, whatever the certification group just told us that they made everything optional. Everything's 2.0, now.

Rene Ritchie (01:47:15):
Yeah. It's all optional. Any, any features you wanna add? Doesn't

Leo Laporte (01:47:18):
Matter what a, what?

Alex Lindsay (01:47:21):
Cause the standards were going too slow and we literally,

Leo Laporte (01:47:23):
We thought USBC was confusing. Oh my God. Yeah. They solved

Rene Ritchie (01:47:28):
It by making, you know, what, what you need to do anything anymore, because all the boxes say the same and you gotta read a manual to figure out what they

Alex Lindsay (01:47:34):
Actually do. Yeah. I mean, some of this is also a, you know, I think that some of this is a fight over who should control color to the camp, to the, that that's the big thing. Being able to who's who's gonna control the color to the, to the TV. Specifically, you know, going down to SDR. I mean, that's, that's the 2.1 a, you know, it has a lot of stuff around, you know, and cuz there's a growing number of people that would really prefer to have a TV that doesn't do anything other than what it's told, you know, like that, that there's a, you know, that they don't want any features. They don't want it to have any standard versus game mode. They don't want it to be, you know, a native, 120 frame per second Doby vision capable window, you know, and, and like, you know, and that means it can still do 24 frames a second. It can do 30, it can do 60, it can do one 20. It does it Doby vision. I don't want, I don't need any menus just turned on and it just does the thing, you know? And that's what, and so to do that though, you have to be able to push 2.1 a you can't, you can't do it with the current standard. Yeah. You can find it. That feature doesn't existed for two or three years. Okay. So it's, it's till two, three days out. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:48:44):
<Laugh> I just you know, I really loved the idea. One of the things I thought was so cool about the apple watch was that I can order strap is fire. Leo. I can strap is amazing. Do you like my strap? Isn't that beautiful? Yes. It's made out I almost the same one it's made out of old baseball gloves. This is not the EZ. It's the it's old baseball glove. It's old baseball cooler. Yeah. Or something. They

Alex Lindsay (01:49:06):
Call it shoeless Joe shoeless, Joe

Leo Laporte (01:49:07):
Shoeless, Joe old baseball, you know, it was a silly thing to buy, but you know, I treated myself, no, Leo, this is, this is it,

Alex Lindsay (01:49:15):
Hey, nothing silly if you like it. Leo

Leo Laporte (01:49:17):
Nothing's I think it's is it pat and Quill? Is that the one you have? Yeah. They're amazing.

Rene Ritchie (01:49:21):
Yeah. mine is the, the original apple one, but I love the pat and qui stuff.

Leo Laporte (01:49:24):
Yeah. So pat and Quill I don't know if they, they probably still don't they probably don't offer it still, but they said we found some old leather <laugh> there was like hundred year old leather. That's really soft. That's amazing. And really nice. Yeah. So we're gonna make a limited number of apple watch bands out this leather. And I don't, I don't know if they, you feel like Indiana

Rene Ritchie (01:49:46):
Jones it's Petina

Leo Laporte (01:49:47):
So nicely. It's it's so it's like an old baseball glove. When I was a kid, I don't think kids do this anymore. You'd get your baseball glove and you coat it with neats foot oil. You'd put a baseball in it and you'd tape it closed and you'd let it sit for two weeks so that it would develop a pocket. Now they all come with pockets. I don't know what, but Andy and I do it now. You still have to do it. You still have to do it to get it. Really? You still have to do it a good part. Oh yeah. Yeah. I was good. I just did one. Yeah. Did you really? Oh, that makes me happy for my own. Yeah. Baseball will is always gonna live in the past. I think that's just the nature of the game. But so I think I, they didn't say where the leather came from, but they said we found a cash of old leather and our artists and they even have the name of the guy who made it as, as stamped on the band.

Leo Laporte (01:50:27):
And it was, it was expensive. It was like a couple hundred bucks instead of, you know, 80 or whatever. But man, it's nice. And it's, you know what I don't like about leather bands is they're stiff and this one, this one's so soft. Okay. How did I get that? I can't remember. Oh, you about, I was gonna talk about my my watch app. So I, one of the things I really liked. Thank you, Renee. <Laugh> you young people, your brains work so well. Well, no, I distracted you. So I just to mental bookmark of where I was distracting you, I was used to love it. That I could call an Uber on my watch, but go ahead, launch your Uber app. Now it says, and this is a direct quote, please switch to the Uber mobile app. We no longer supporting apple watch app. We no longer supporting the apple watch app. And they really is that what they did. Yeah. Apparently they Eastern Europe to write the message. They were like, oh, just, just write something. You just don't do the same anymore.

Rene Ritchie (01:51:20):
They notify me eight times a day. If I even accidentally open Uber app, it comes back and says, were you trying to order an Uber? And like, they just, they vomit notifications on me, but they won't be bothered to put a it on the apple watch.

Leo Laporte (01:51:29):
So yeah, for some reason you know, I understand why you don't have Twitter on an apple watch. I can live with that. You know, there's, there's a lot of apps that don't really make sense on the watch. Uber is not one of them. Uber is the perfect. Otherwise you had keep your phone out. Uber would tell you it was on route. It would tell you who your driver was, what kind of car he was driving on the watch fact. There's what's his name? Showing it off. Kevin, Kevin, Kevin Lynch, Kevin Lynch watch guy. He was ordering an apple car. We didn't know. So now Kevin Lynch is running apple car and Uber is off the watch. Do we use any, does anyone use, I mean, I, I mean, I just don't, you don't go anywhere. I don't go anywhere, but I, I don't what I mean by that is I don't use very many apps on the watch. Like I, well, I use is activity, but that's, you know, I don't think that counts. Right. That's just part of, I use the time, use the app

Rene Ritchie (01:52:22):
On the phone, ther notifi on

Leo Laporte (01:52:24):
The watch. So on my, on my watch face complication, I have the activity cuz I work out and I want to get credit at it. In fact, if I forget and don't do that, I feel terrible. Like I didn't work out. What's your workout in alio

Rene Ritchie (01:52:34):
I'm gonna distract you again. <Laugh> you're

Leo Laporte (01:52:36):
Terrible. Renee squirrel

Rene Ritchie (01:52:39):

Leo Laporte (01:52:41):
Squirrel. I have a trainer I go to on Monday and Friday will he works me out. He's got a, a, he, he used to work at the gym. I used to go to him at the gym. We don't go to the gym anymore. Yes. He's built out his barn with all his equipment four times. Awesome. It's called red barn and it's it's great. So I go there on Monday and, and Friday and on Wednesday they have a bootcamp where I go and Jeremiah, the hell out of us. That's awesome. It's great. Three days a week, you know that's good, right? Yeah.

Rene Ritchie (01:53:09):
I'm asking. Cause all our stuff closed down now too. So I'm looking at all trying.

Leo Laporte (01:53:13):
So this is a personal, this guy's personal. Now I have to say, I found out later that two of the people in the bootcamp weren't VA Randy VAERS and I went, I stopped going, oh God. And then both of 'em got sick and disappeared. I should laugh. See the story. That's terrible. They're fine. They didn't die. But they did get sick. And so now I can go again because everybody there is is safe in

Rene Ritchie (01:53:36):
Quebec. They, they made it like you have to be, vaed ordered to get alcohol or pot. And we already had high rates, but now it's like four times as many people suddenly show up to get

Leo Laporte (01:53:44):
Vas. It's amazing. Oh, that's good. I like it. That's a good Renee Renee,

Alex Lindsay (01:53:48):
Just in case you're wondering the jujitsu is opened in no Nevada.

Leo Laporte (01:53:51):
Oh, okay. It's you do? The Brazilian keeps trying

Rene Ritchie (01:53:53):
To open here, but

Alex Lindsay (01:53:55):
I'm always amazing. My son doesn't I don't do it. I have a shoulder injury, but my son does jujitsu and I'm always amazing. But when you watch it, I'm like, I can't believe this is not like a super spreader every at every 10 seconds, you know there's yeah. They're all close here. Yeah. They're they're it's it's busy.

Leo Laporte (01:54:11):
Busy here. Yeah. Did you see Renee just, and as long as we're really, I mean, go on as long we're going down that rabbit hole. Did you see that Anthony Bordain was posting on Reddit about his experiences in Brazilian jits too. It was incredible. Yeah. It's amazing. Rolling stone called it. The lost diary of Anthony Bordain. Cuz he was posting anonymously, but you know what, if you read it it's so Anthony Bordain in the writing, it's his voice. It's totally his voice. Now this was many years ago. He's of course he's passed since. But I was wondering when I read it, I thought I bet cuz I know you're a a yeah, yeah, yeah. Although you're doing something new aren't you?

Rene Ritchie (01:54:51):
I no. Well I just haven't been able to do ju JSU for a long time. Cuz it's been like closed for

Leo Laporte (01:54:55):
30 years. Aw. He loved his I've I've been doing, he loved it. I still

Rene Ritchie (01:55:00):
Have my wooden dummy from, from WUN. So I, I set that up again and now I'm beating the crap out of the wooden dummy. Every every

Leo Laporte (01:55:05):
Day I almost made Renee pat out cuz he taught me a head, a headlock, but he didn't teach me that. Tapping out meant, let go. <Laugh>

Rene Ritchie (01:55:14):
Both you and Mike Hurley have choked me out if amazing. So

Leo Laporte (01:55:17):
Sorry, podcasting to go say that. So, so sorry. Cause first of all, I would've never been able to get him in the headlock if he hadn't fully cooperated. So

Rene Ritchie (01:55:27):
Fond memories.

Leo Laporte (01:55:28):
Those were the days that was in our new year's Eve party. I, and then finally the go full circle I'm at pat and Quill's site. They do not sell that a well maybe they do. They have an aged Lowry cuff? No, I don't think that's the same. That's nice. This isn't the same one I got, I don't think that was a limited supply cuz he, the

Rene Ritchie (01:55:45):
Cuffs are all nice though.

Leo Laporte (01:55:47):
I really like this, but I'm again, I have other leather bands that are too stiff. The fact that this was in somebody's closet for a hundred years really made the difference on this.

Andy Ihnatko (01:55:56):
It's so nice. But you now do what kind, what kind of risks do you have? I have like hair wrists and there are a lot of bands that I absolutely cannot wear because it, I just get skinned. I don't think

Leo Laporte (01:56:07):
Any sense. I will be as Harry, as Andy and NACO so he's basically, they're not hairless.

Andy Ihnatko (01:56:14):
Well, well I am, you know, I am, I am genetically optimized for winter warfare.

Leo Laporte (01:56:18):
<Laugh> that's why, and it doesn't bother, but I have long Russian winners. So maybe <laugh> you don't have cold

Rene Ritchie (01:56:26):
Then we must wanna caught it to survive. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:56:28):
In any event

Andy Ihnatko (01:56:30):
There is no land beyond the VO guy.

Leo Laporte (01:56:32):
<Laugh> fortunately I have a a very efficient stack and I'm gonna pop Uber back off the stack and move on to the next story. Yes.

Andy Ihnatko (01:56:43):
But, but, but just to, before we, before we tie that up, push

Leo Laporte (01:56:47):
It back stack.

Andy Ihnatko (01:56:48):
Go ahead. Yes. Oh no, just I, I, I, I love the way that apples, one of the most advanced companies, most thoughtful companies in the world, they move so carefully and so cautiously and even they will never know how people are going to use a new product, see how they use them. They've everyone thought thought that, oh, there's gonna be this new computing platform. That's going to be not necessarily as powerful or as interactive as a phone, but we will be running apps on that device. And we'll be using the phone to project live user interface interactions between the phone and the device. And it's like, no, please give us more fitness features. Give us, yes, give us no notifications. Let us be able to push a button to respond to something on a notification. But really we don't want an app on our, on our watches.

Andy Ihnatko (01:57:31):
We want, we want Mickey mouse. We want Pixar characters. We want to be able to like position a, a, a, a motion app, a motion picture behind a behind the time. So it looks like the time is actually the sunglasses that my, that my daughter is wearing. It's like this, this is why AR and, and VR is gonna be so interesting where there I'm sure that everyone who's, who's trying to make a play for this understands that, look, we're gonna, we're gonna make hardware. We're gonna make an API. We're gonna do a wonderful demo. It's gonna be great. The demo it's gonna be great. But then a year for, from a half from the launch, that's when we'll know what kind of product we have, because my favorite, I think the users will tell us

Rene Ritchie (01:58:11):
One of my favorite memories from an apple event. I think it was 2015. I was standing next to someone really famous, but who will remain nameless. And Johnny I've walked over to us. And the person said that was a terrific show. Johnny and Johnny just looked and he goes, was it, was it, I mean, we create these products, but we never know what they really mean until they get into the hands of our customers. Only when we see how people use them, when we truly understand them and the person next, we said, oh, okay, thank you, Johnny. And Johnny just noded and walked off. I've always remembered. That

Leo Laporte (01:58:39):
Was it. It is the 50. We, I, we didn't really mention this, but January 9th, 2007 was the day Steve jobs announced the iPhone. So it is in fact, the 15th anniversary of the iPhone announcement, not shipping, but of the iPhone announcement.

Alex Lindsay (01:58:54):
And of course it wasn't gonna work because it's a really well, in fact, it,

Leo Laporte (01:58:58):
On that day old market, it really work <laugh> but

Alex Lindsay (01:59:01):
They were able to get no, but, but I, I just remember that all the rumors and people were just like, this is never gonna happen. I mean, I have they ever heard of a Blackberry? I mean, I don't think this is gonna, I was listening to, oh, I said,

Leo Laporte (01:59:09):
This was that Scott, who, that he was gonna smash his trio at the same day. And oh yes. Scott was all in. He said that

Alex Lindsay (01:59:15):
He Scott and I both Scott and I are both all in

Leo Laporte (01:59:18):
Scott born. Definitely. In fact, there's a picture him from the San Francisco Chronicle, holding his first iPhone, a loft as he exited the store and turned, that's a great show. He wanted to make an iPhone vest, I think maybe Merlin man Bandera. But I was a little more skeptical. I was among the people who said, this is a tough market. The cell phone market, really, you think apple can, can do well only 1%. The only example that we had before, that was the horrible rock that Motorola rocker rocker that they made with Motorola. And I thought, wow, I, I hope it's better than that. It was. And Steve said, we want 1%. We'll be really happy with 1%. So they got 50. Yeah. That's all right. That's pretty good.

Andy Ihnatko (02:00:01):
50. Well, so also we, we have patented this up and down and top to bottom, there will never be anyone making another phone that's even similar to this. You know,

Leo Laporte (02:00:10):
It would be cool still, still, if he had known that almost to the day, 15 years later, Blackberry would flip the switch on its servers, January 4th, 2022, and shut them down for the last time, making all Blackberry devices obsolete. That's that took 15 years, but that's a victory,

Alex Lindsay (02:00:27):
I guess. Yeah. But what's, what's amazing is also that, that there was almost within a couple years, there was almost no phone that looked anything different than what that's right. You know, it was just that it just, it worked through it. And what, I don't think that anyone would've predicted the best thing that ever happened to apple was Android. Like I'll, I'll flat out say because apple would've been, you know, they answer to trust would've wrapped. It would've been, it would've been a huge issue. 10 years ago,

Leo Laporte (02:00:49):
Quite famously Google engineers were watching the event, January 9th, they had a phone, they were ready to ship. And they said, Nope, back to the drawing pad sooner, sooner, sooner we were gonna start over cuz that's what phones should look like going forward is, is slabs

Andy Ihnatko (02:01:05):
Phone movie. And, and also to be fair, this is a, this is, this is a lot like the, the gai mouse and pointer interfaces where it's something that had been considered for a long time. A lot of the basic hardware has been, they'd been working on for a long time. Apple just had a huge jump on actually making it useful and practical. So it's not as though this was being parachute it in from another planet, but nonetheless, and also the, the other thing that oftentimes gets missed in, in the conversation is as innovative as this hardware was the, the, the forethought that they had in understanding that look, there are two, there are two large phone companies in the United States at and T and Verizon at and T is getting their lunch TA lunch stolen by Verizon. They are desperate and we will, they will agree to pretty much everything that we ask of a carrier.

Andy Ihnatko (02:01:50):
If, if we make the iPhone exclusive to this sort of underdog carrier at this time. And so much of what the iPhone was capable of was impossible on blackberries, on windows, mobile phones, all these sort of stuff, because they simply would not allow a phone to have a web, a real web browser, cuz they didn't think that their networks could handle it. They simply would not allow so much of what this CA they, they would not allow the, the device manufacturer to dictate to the carrier here is the device that we will make and sell you, not tell us what device you think that you want to market. And we will make this thing and put up and, and slap your logo on it. It was so there's so much innovation that goes not only from top to bottom, but side to side.

Alex Lindsay (02:02:29):
Yeah. And, and the fact that apple with no market leverage held out for total control or near total control was a big deal. Like it, as you, as you said, like they didn't have the, there's no reason for anybody to make a deal with them really. And a singular

Rene Ritchie (02:02:44):
At the time. <Laugh>

Andy Ihnatko (02:02:45):
Yeah, well, no, they, they, they, they were, they were at and T then they became singular and then they, that worked out, worked great. So they became at T and Verizon said,

Rene Ritchie (02:02:53):
No. And then singular was desperate enough to let 'em do it. And was, but enforce that an amazing interview with the computer history museum where like at and T is on the singles on the phone saying, what does it look like? And he's like, I, I can't tell you, he like, are you, is it a Lego phone? <Laugh> they're like yelling at

Alex Lindsay (02:03:10):
Yeah. Anyway

Leo Laporte (02:03:12):
Thing, 15 years later, it's completely dominant. Although as you point out Alex you're and you're right. In fact, Android is a little bit ahead right now.

Alex Lindsay (02:03:20):
Well, globally, Android way, way, way, way, way, like, you know, it's so, you know, in the United States, it's right at it's right at about 50 50, depending on who you talk to.

Leo Laporte (02:03:29):
I think that's also price, that's a price issue because yeah. You know, half the market is not gonna spend a thousand dollars on a phone. So there are a lot of cheap Android phones. What, you know, some markets are very spec, my daughters Android, because a new phone every three months, cuz they break. So I'm not gonna, you know, we're not gonna go for the iPhone on this. Right. It's just too expensive.

Alex Lindsay (02:03:49):

Rene Ritchie (02:03:50):
Does she break them?

Leo Laporte (02:03:52):
Well, you you'll have to ask her. It's it's her opinion. They leap from her hand in an attempt to escape. But you know, it's funny. I mean, I've tried every case under the sun. We've tried everything and, but you know what, those Motorola, the, the Motorola G G nine power, they're 200 bucks. They're actually very good Android phones. You know, and, and over, over a year it costs me less than one iPhone. So you have a

Rene Ritchie (02:04:19):
Drawer of them, don't you? Like one of them breaks and you just I'll fix it for you and you just quietly hand over

Leo Laporte (02:04:24):
New one. I, I have quite a large D drawer, broken phones of all of all kinds. I, you know, it's interesting. I haven't broken a phone in a long, long time. You know, I have this,

Alex Lindsay (02:04:32):
I, I have this case and I drop it all the time and I haven't, I don't. And I put what, put a screen protector, dark industries look at this is made by smart Smartish. Oh. But it's, it holds my, my credit cards and stuff on the back. Yeah. And then it, and then that's it. I mean, that's the big thing is it has to hold the credit cards and you can't,

Leo Laporte (02:04:50):
Can't do wireless charging.

Alex Lindsay (02:04:52):
I don't do that. Yeah. I, I don't even like my watch doing wireless charging. I, I put up with it. I, but it always slides off gets bumped and now it's not charging anymore. And so yeah, so I, anyway, so I I dropped this thing. I mean, I, and then I put a screen protector on immediately. So as soon as I buy a new phone, I get a, a screen protector for the front. And then I get the, the case. Do you get glass

Leo Laporte (02:05:16):

Alex Lindsay (02:05:17):
Is that what you use? Yeah. They come in, like they come cares or whatever, and it, the, the videos what's, what's great. Is they now, I mean, they've really gotten good at it. They, they have a little machine kind of no, no, no, no. I do it at home. I, yeah. And, and, but it's got a great little template that tells you where to go. It, it, you know, they've really figured it out, you know? So it's really easy with

Leo Laporte (02:05:36):
You. Don't get the air bubbles underneath. That's the problem with plastic. You

Alex Lindsay (02:05:39):
Don't get, well, it, you don't get the air bubbles, but also it, it really shows you how to do it. There's a way to, you know, use the, the squeegee and the thing and the thing and the thing. I mean, it's, it's like a, it's like, I, I used to be scared of it. Now. I add things to, I, my, some of my devices all the time. I try it. I

Leo Laporte (02:05:53):
Don't, I, like I said, I don't break my phone, so I guess I don't need it, but, and I kind of have a, I certainly have an aversion of plastic screen protectors, but the glass seems like, and everything works the same. It's all.

Alex Lindsay (02:06:03):
Yeah. Yeah. It works perfectly. And yeah. And what's, what's funny is, is that I, I, I, it was really hard for me to get over. Cause I used to, every time I bought an iPhone, I would go to the apple store and they have this like beast of a applic. Like it's like this thing that goes around the phone and yeah. Yeah. And it, and it's perfect. And so I would always have them do it, cuz they'll do it for free. If you buy the, if you buy it there, they'll just put it on for you. And, and so I would always have it then. Cause I was like, I don't wanna figure it out once I figured it out. I'm like, all my phones have something on it. My iPad has a, my old iPad hasn't paper surface. I think I recommended that before. And cause I like, I like drawing. I like drawing on it. And so you just start adding them cuz the, again, the, you know, all it is, the instructions got better. Like literally that was it. Yeah. The instructions have gotten way better at how to do it, you know? And, and you, they have a little QR code and you hit it and you, you hit the QR code, it takes you to a YouTube page and it shows you the video of how to get it done. And then you, then you do it.

Leo Laporte (02:07:01):
But I can't see any reason to do it. It's just to prevent breakage and scratching,

Alex Lindsay (02:07:05):
Scratching mine, doesn't scratch or break. And, and it carries my credit cards

Leo Laporte (02:07:09):
And the credit cards. I

Andy Ihnatko (02:07:10):
Just, I I've, I've always, I've always put my phones in cases. The last phone I broke was an iPhone five, but no, no worries. It blunt apple. But I I've never, I've never put a screen on, on

Leo Laporte (02:07:23):

Andy Ihnatko (02:07:24):
I did no in my defense. I did say, sorry,

Leo Laporte (02:07:27):
When I, how many how many phones do you think apple loans out that get, they come back broken or cracked? I bet a lot. No comment.

Alex Lindsay (02:07:37):
Not that they've ever been used harder because they don't, they don't right. They're not owned, you know? Yeah. <laugh>

Andy Ihnatko (02:07:42):
Well, I don't, I don't, I don't, I, I, I've never, I don't do drop tests. I don't believe that that is within my, my area of, of, that's not that they've agreed to let me do, but yeah, that I don't no. Now that I, now that I remember, no, I, I remember exactly what the situation was. It was the, I wasn't used to like the, that super shiny, the super shiny, super slippery glass back. I was at I was, I was at JP licks, an ice cream place in in Jamaica, plain. And they have those, those polished marble like tables. And so I just simply just simply placed it on the, I dropped it maybe a quarter of an inch, like one inch. And the thing just kept sliding, sliding, sliding went all the way off the edge of the table. And I'm like, that has got to be the most air HOTT phone I have ever had. <Laugh> in my life. They

Leo Laporte (02:08:30):
Really are. People are complaining about the pixel six. I immediately put a kid on it, but people are complaining it's it's

Andy Ihnatko (02:08:38):
Case the nexus

Leo Laporte (02:08:40):
Four. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Just like it's like a bar of soap. It just goes squirt that a nexus four can still beat it off a flat surface <laugh> time trial. Yeah. Cuz of the camera book. Second. It slows it down second. Fast. Yeah, yeah. A little bit. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (02:08:51):
Just, I mean, even, even for the, some of my, my test phones, these are or older ones that I always put even just this little rubbery one on it. And that's what I always do. Yeah. This is what happens. This is actually the apple. This happens if I, if I don't get it on fast enough is that I do,

Leo Laporte (02:09:06):
Oh my God. Don't waste any time. Get it on.

Alex Lindsay (02:09:08):
I mean, literally it was like glass bated for like two days and it was so I, I put 'em on pretty quickly. It, these are some, my R and D phones,

Leo Laporte (02:09:15):
Apple, silicone red. But this is the colors. Aren't very

Alex Lindsay (02:09:19):
Good, but nice. Like clear.

Leo Laporte (02:09:21):
Yeah. I like clear too, but this is nice. It's and it's grippy and I, you know, and I, you know, it's easy to spot across the room, so

Andy Ihnatko (02:09:29):
Yeah, I do. I, I, I do too much photography not to have like a really, really grippy case. Oh, that's nice. Look at that. And then, and then I, then I have to always, I, I want really super wonderful colorful cases, but every time like I choose something like that, like, oh, a hot pink case. And then like, I'll be doing a selfie there's there's this like pink slab of something like in my, in the reflection someplace, that's like, ah, dang I,

Leo Laporte (02:09:52):
What is that? I know this is an apple show and that's a pixel six pro, but just outta curiosity,

Andy Ihnatko (02:09:57):
It is, it is the SPN S P Igan case. It has just a little tiny kickstand, which is all I really, really want. I've I've there, there are a couple other styles. I really, really like, I think the in case I think that it's, it's a kind that has these really, really thick, rubbery like textured side grips, which is again, more times where I'm sort of like trying to position something really, really weird. And I'm realizing that, or I'm trying, I'm holding it like, like this, like with two fingers like that. And I'm like, oh, this is bad. This is bad. This is bad. This is not a loaner phone, Andy, this is not a loaner phone. Andy don't drop it. We, we really want that extra,

Leo Laporte (02:10:35):
Extra grip. That's how I felt when I first got the Samsung galaxy fold. Yeah. You know, $2,500 phone and I'm taking pictures with it. I'm thinking if I, and I didn't have a case yet I, I dropped this. I'm gonna die. So this is the case, the spike in tough armor, extreme protection. Does it work with wireless charging? Yep.

Andy Ihnatko (02:10:54):
Okay. yep. But it it, it's not the one that works with with MagSafe. There is, there is a model that someone, yeah. I don't need that. Yeah. That is SAF for people. But no,

Leo Laporte (02:11:03):
I might get pink. You know, the it's funny how cheap these are. This is a really good example. So never buy an apple watch band, never buy an apple case. The apple cases are twice as three times as much as this case. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (02:11:17):
Well, it's, it's it sometimes, sometimes you need to be cautious. The one thing that I'm looking for is that it has to be just absolutely snug. Like I've dipped this in like liquid vinyl or something like this. Nothing, nothing annoys me more than like a silicone case rattles around. That's just a little bit. Yeah. Like I feel if it's not difficult to remove so difficult that I'm not apt to even try to remove it. That's I'm not interested. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:11:43):
That, that com we should just edit that out because this isn't break quickly, but <laugh> okay. Just gonna mention that. Let's see. I right. As long as we're on gentle, did you love Alex? I wanted to get your opinion on this. Netflix published for their partners, people making movies for Netflix, Netflix, their camera guide. Did you see that,

Alex Lindsay (02:12:04):
Alex? No, that's been around for a long time. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:12:07):
I just thought,

Alex Lindsay (02:12:08):
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's incredible. Like it's, it's not just the, it's not just the camera guides. So net flick has this is, this what's on their webpage, I think is a, is a pretty basic like

Leo Laporte (02:12:20):
Black, black magic. They only recommend the ERSA mini or many Thea's. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My cannon is safe. Your cannon let's see, is your Canon in the in the list? The C 300 believe so 5, 4, 500. Yeah. Yeah. 500, 300, 507. You could even a C 70. You, it make a movie for Netflix. Yep. Doing it now. <Laugh> kidding. <Laugh>

Alex Lindsay (02:12:39):
The, the, there's a whole section here. That's imaging. But if you look at, you know, sound delivery, they got everything. There's a lot of things and, and it's great because Netflix arguably, I mean, I had a, I, I had a friend that was the producer at, he was a producer and, and he said, he's one of 900 producers working on shows. And he said, and they're 900 short. <Laugh> like, this was, and this was years later, they need more, this is, they're just this giant machine of a building. So that what the big thing is is that they know the, the big thing, they, they know how to do this. Like they know how, like how to get the content out to the other end. And so they, they put out all these practices. It saves 'em a lot of time. And if you start, like, even if you hope to do it at some point then, then you should be looking at this. But if you're, if you're content creating, it's worth reading, no matter what, because, oh, it's amazing. It's really well done. Yeah. some of the guys on the team I've, I've worked with in the past that,

Leo Laporte (02:13:30):
Do you agree with the camera recommendations or all those yeah. Yeah. Those are great cameras.

Alex Lindsay (02:13:34):
It seems like there's other stuff that's left out. I think you could, I think that the six, like the six K that black magic makes, I don't think the image is any worse than the, than the earth is, but theres just could be more, more stuff, you know? So the, maybe that makes sense, but the image quality, I think on the six K is

Leo Laporte (02:13:51):
Well, and they don't need with the G2 4k, obviously mostly just Sy cams. Isn't it? They just, as long as you're a fairly good Sy Camm you're on that list. Cause it doesn't seem like they have any of the prosumer muralists.

Alex Lindsay (02:14:00):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that, that was, I mean, I think, well, most of the prosumer stuff doesn't record raw. So, so most of the prosumer stuff is some weird 2 64, 2 65. And so they, and, and without the, at you don't have enough bit depth to get. And, and you don't have enough bit depth and you don't have enough resolution. You, there's a whole bunch of things that you don't have to get to because it's not what you can shoot. It's what you can grade. So you have to be able to grade the image, you know, so color, you know, have the color depth. So you need X number of stops in the, within the color data that's coming in. Cuz it's because when you're shooting, when you're shooting a show, you're not, it's not wizzy wig. It's not like, oh, I see it. It's it's gonna go.

Alex Lindsay (02:14:36):
And that's why log is so important. But that log is of a limited value. If that log is in eight bit or if it's in a, you know, a lower bit rate. So you can cuz it means that, okay, now I'm gonna take this low contrast image and make it high con higher contrast. Then the pro of them that I have there is I'm gonna start stretching all those colors out. Well, if I don't have the bit depth, if I'm not a 10 bit or 12 bit, if I'm not, if I don't have that data there to grab onto or the bit rate to, to hang onto all the details, like you take an iPhone out and sure you can shoot 4k HDR except okay. One more you shoot trees. It, it looks like swirly things. And if you shoot with a real camera, it looks real. So it's

Leo Laporte (02:15:12):
Turned into office hours. Mini, sorry. <Laugh> yes, but I have one more question for you. You asked this Friday, apple TV plus McBeth, Joel Cohens McBeth. Oh my gosh. With Denzel Washington Francis MC can't wait to see this. First of all, it's four by three, which is really interesting, weird black and white high contrast. What do you think they is this on an air maybe or yeah. Yeah. <laugh> it's like, yes, for sure. Right?

Alex Lindsay (02:15:38):
I mean all the, I mean, not all, but the vast majority of high end films, it could have been shot on film too. I mean, I don't, I don't know. No, no, it's digital.

Leo Laporte (02:15:47):
You can, if you look at it,

Alex Lindsay (02:15:48):
It it's digital ITT for sure. Yeah. But I, my air kind of owns the,

Leo Laporte (02:15:52):
Well, you know, red RO was shot on an and

Alex Lindsay (02:15:56):
Almost everything it's like 80%, 80% of the major feature

Leo Laporte (02:15:59):
Films, Coones academy award winner from a couple years back.

Alex Lindsay (02:16:03):
It's the, so the, the, the knees, the, the knees in the air area, the colored management, something about it, it's got the soft knee on the highlights and the, and the shadows that just is a really pleasing you know, it's a beautiful black and white. Yeah. And so it now

Leo Laporte (02:16:18):
Does it do four, three? Why four, three.

Alex Lindsay (02:16:22):
Well, they probably cropped it this that way. Yeah. Yeah. But, but the unless it was

Leo Laporte (02:16:27):
Ator. Yeah. <Laugh>

Alex Lindsay (02:16:30):
Yeah. And, and a lot of times you get that great. The, the best black and white, isn't just converting it to black and white, like, cuz that would just be grabbing the luminance or whatever. Usually that's a creative combination of the color channels to, you know, to, to affect the black and white. In fact, you can do that in Photoshop and you can get a much higher quality black and white rendition by taking all the color channels and then, and combining them as part of the grade,

Leo Laporte (02:17:01):
Can't wait to see it that's come up. It's

Alex Lindsay (02:17:03):
It looks really good beyond that. It just looks like a great, it looks like a great version of the, of the

Leo Laporte (02:17:07):
Denzel Washington and, and, and France Aderant yeah. I mean, Cohen done any of Joe Cohen, the Cohen

Alex Lindsay (02:17:13):
Done. Yeah. Joe Cohen. I, I think it was just like, Joe, this is one of those because a whole bunch of the streaming companies apple included have, I've heard these stories that they basically go to folks that they wanna include and they say, what's your, like, what's that dream project that no one will fund will fund it. Yeah. Like that's how, that's how, like first they killed my father by Angelina Jolie. They said, what, what, we'll give you a budget, you know, 25 million to make anything you want. And she said, well, I wanna make this, I wanna make something in the career language. You know, like I was like, I'm gonna go down the whole, the whole way down and, and do this, this really pure. And they were like okay. <Laugh> and it was good. It's good. You know it's but so it's, it's allowing the actors and the directors to do whatever they want. So I think that apple just said, we'll pay for whatever you want to do. Although it's because it's 8 24, it may have already been done. Have

Leo Laporte (02:18:06):
An apple water have in my mind complete another fantasy. I don't know, but they're married Francis, my dormant and Joel Cohen. And I had the fantasy that one night he looked over on the, and said, Hey, Francis, if you could do anything, what would you wanna do? She said, I always wanna play lady Macbeth. He says done.

Alex Lindsay (02:18:21):
Yeah, exactly. Apples called me, apple called me and said that I could do whatever I want. What do you wanna do, honey? And then she was like, I wanna play <laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:18:28):
And then she, and then, and then he says, okay, Francis and, and who do you think Macbeths? Who do you think? Oh yeah. I wanna do it with Denzel Denzel, obviously, right? Yeah,

Alex Lindsay (02:18:37):
I would, I would not be surprised a shark.

Leo Laporte (02:18:41):
Oh my God. I can't wait

Alex Lindsay (02:18:42):
To see this. It looks and the reviews are incredible.

Leo Laporte (02:18:45):
Oh yeah. It's almost it's almost perfect on rotten tomatoes. Yeah. It's 

Alex Lindsay (02:18:50):
It's gonna be a dying to see it. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:18:52):
Now do yeah. So erect con five has seen it. He saw it in, in the cinemas last year. Is it how close to the Shakespeare is it? It says written by Joel Cohen, but I can't imagine, you know, it says written for the screen by Joel Cohen based on the play by William Shakespeare. But then it bit I've seen in the clips have been actual Shakespearean language, so, oh. He says it's the fastest Macbeth ever <laugh>

Alex Lindsay (02:19:20):
Well, and a lot of times, a lot of Shakespeare gets cut out. Like if you look at like Kenneth Bena oh yeah. And even, and even Lawrence li and Brando the version of Henry the fifth. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:19:27):
But if you take their Henry the fifth, they cut huge chunks interviewed Kenneth brand. When that came out actually nice. Cuz I was very cur. Yeah. And he's I watch it in a theater when it came out. Yeah. Me too. Cuz that's all we had. Yep. Back in the day, back in the, had to watch it in a theater I'm gonna watch 4k ed screen with HDR. Great. And it's gonna be, I've already, I've been watching, I've watched the trailer like 10 times in audience cuz that's why I wanted to know about the camera cuz it's just, there's something about the richness of that black and white. It just looks so good. So good.

Andy Ihnatko (02:20:04):
Yeah. Your mind has such a pop, powerful ability to fill in details and it is more real

Leo Laporte (02:20:10):
Than any reality. Yeah. That should be on black and white. Absolutely. You remember in the in the really old days because blood on black and white doesn't look like blood they would wear yellow face paint cuz it looked more real and they would use chalk put syrup for blood because they oh yeah. You have to think about these things cuz you're going black and white. Right?

Andy Ihnatko (02:20:34):
1, 1, 1 of my favorite pieces of, of special effects tricks are like from black and white movies where they would do like a transformation where like beautiful wind turns into a witch or even like a monster transformation where it's like, oh my God have, this is 1931. But this is like perfect CGI. And the, the re what they did was they were, they had the, the person painted their, the face painted with multicolor different makeup. And they simply changed like the colored gels over the lighting. So that suddenly the black and white film was registering different highs. Different was and absolutely changing, like from one painted mask to another, so to speak. That's like my God, those people were clever

Leo Laporte (02:21:15):
In the thirties. So in this, in this article they mentioned that the costume designer, Mary Zophres was on Roger Deakins and James Deakins podcast. And she was talking about the, because McBeth was shot in black and white. Of course she wants to do costume Testo in black and white. She said we used to have to use a Polaroid with black and white stock, but now we just use the iPhone with the no noir setting. <Laugh> another use for the iPhone. It's everywhere. The iPhone with the noir setting phones

Andy Ihnatko (02:21:50):
Credits to color by deluxe lenses, by PEX and filters by Instagram. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:21:59):
Oh my God. Well, that's good to know though, because that's good to know. I will be I'll be using the no setting from now on. I just love that. Look, they'll never gave us Kahan back. Oh, excusable inexcusable. Let's see here as before we take our final break, if there's anything I missed in the rundown that you guys wanted to talk about Spotify high, five delayed company says we don't know when we're gonna do that. You know what I think, realize like, no one cares exactly. Alex. Nobody knows nobody wants this.

Alex Lindsay (02:22:35):
No, we already have enough speakers. Like I was like too much trouble,

Andy Ihnatko (02:22:39):
But to be fair, it's it's more like the delayed indefinitely. That's like, that's like air power. That's like, that's, that's been delayed indefinitely. Yeah. This is like, yeah, we're still doing it. We just don't know when they, they, they did say by the end of 2021. So yes, I suppose you could say delayed indefinitely, but that just means they're not gonna be doing it, I guess. Well,

Alex Lindsay (02:22:58):
We'll see. We'll watch. Yeah. I think that, I think that's, that's a, we didn't give up, but we're not gonna do

Leo Laporte (02:23:02):
It. And this story is for Renee Richie just for you, the LA police officers <laugh>, who were recorded in 2017 by their digital incar video system, when they decided to go after a Snorlax, instead of responding to a armed robbery in progress at a mall are still fired. The California appeals court said, I strike no, but Renee

Alex Lindsay (02:23:31):
Renee, but it was a, it was a snor LA like how rare, how rare is the storm lax? That's what I wanna know when I

Rene Ritchie (02:23:37):
First heard the story. I thought this is ridiculous because who wants a garbage Snorlax? And then I didn't realize it was 2017 where they were like, it was

Leo Laporte (02:23:43):
Early rare early dear. So this is from the ruling. The hunt for Snorlax allegedly began at 6:09 PM. Officer Mitchell alerted Lasano that Snorlax just, this is quotes from the digital recording system in the, in the, in the squad car just popped up at 46th and lime Mart. After noting that LeMar doesn't go all the way to 46 Lasano responded, oh, you know what I can do? I'll go down 11th and swing up on Crenshaw. I know the way I can get to it. Mitchell suggested a different route than told Lasano we got four minutes now, Renee, as you know, that means, yes, that was a raid, right. That was gonna end in four minutes. Well, but

Rene Ritchie (02:24:25):
Like back in the day, you also had the tracking apps that would tell you the spawn time for how much

Leo Laporte (02:24:29):
Longer that, so maybe it wasn't there.

Rene Ritchie (02:24:31):
Okay. And so what I'm guessing is they're like we have a code 1 43, 1 43. Yes. That's a PEX entry for AAX. We have a code 1 43 on, on the corner of sun

Leo Laporte (02:24:41):
Sunnydale. We don't have to imagine we have the recording approximately the next 20 minutes, the in incar camera system captured, captured the petitioners discussing Pokemon as they drove to different locations where the virtual creatures apparently appeared on their mobile phones on their way to the Snorlax location. Officer Mitchell alerted officer Lasano that a toge just popped up on Crenshaw, just south of fit 50th. After Mitchell apparently caught the Snorlax exclaiming in true Pokemon fashion. Got him. Petitioners agreed to go get the toge and drove off. Is it toge or toge to

Rene Ritchie (02:25:23):
Tick? I think. But so like the thing about Pokemon goal that like, if you play it for any length of time, what it takes you an inhuman amount of effort to get one year will be like things you throw out next year,

Leo Laporte (02:25:34):
Our garbage Pokemon now. Yeah. Yeah.

Rene Ritchie (02:25:36):
My, my godson was the only one who didn't get the Toga tick when it was pointing at Mount Royal this one time. And he was so upset. He like, yeah, he was a tiny kid at the time. He had like a fit about it. So another one spawned and I raced with, with his father to go get it. And we arrived and I ran and I finally got it the last second. And now they're like on every street

Leo Laporte (02:25:53):
Corner, but see you understand then the officer's legitimate concern, even when the radio called in a robbery in progress in local mall wait a minute, let I'll get <laugh> a after communications made a second attempt to contact petitioner's officer Lasano asked, should we ask communications? If there's a message, officer Mitchell replied, it's up to you, whatever you think. I don't want him to think. We're not paying attention to the radio. Lasano responded. Aw, screw it. And they went after the Snorlax, but it didn't end there after they got the Toga tick the recording recorded Mitchell saying, don't run away. Don't run away while Rosala described how he buried it. And ultra balled the Toga tick before announcing got him Mitchell advised. He was still trying to catch it. This is in the court filing by the way, <laugh> adding holy crap, man. This thing is fighting the crap outta me. Eventually Mitchell exclaimed. Holy crap. Finally, apparently in reference to capturing the Toga Dick, he remarked, the guys are gonna be so jealous. <Laugh> why isn't this a TV

Rene Ritchie (02:27:02):
Plus show petition. I was

Leo Laporte (02:27:04):
Then agreed to return to the seven 11 to end their watch on the way Mitchell remarked. I got you a no Pokemon today. Dude, when confronted by their Sergeant saying, what the hell <laugh> they? They claimed they were merely having a conversation about Pokemon go.

Rene Ritchie (02:27:24):
This gonna be an episode of SWAT. This is amazing. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:27:27):
He said we weren't playing a video game. They were charged with one failing to respond to a robbery in progress called two making misleading statements to their Sergeant. One asked why they didn't hear the radio three failing to respond on the radio. When the unit was called four failing to handle and assign radio call five playing Pokemon, go on patrol. Yeah. And that's number five. That's the fifth one on the

Rene Ritchie (02:27:51):
List. I remember like a few years ago, a friend of mine got kicked. She was at the cemetery at night. These cemeteries are, are always good spot around that she was taking all the gyms and the police stopped her. And even though it's a public park, they were still hours that you were allowed to be there. They made her leave. And then she had to watch from is they took all the gyms and she just spent half an hour, like in their squad car, driving to the different gyms and taking them. So it's like, it's a long standing thing.

Leo Laporte (02:28:14):
It's hilarious. Yeah. If, if only if only we could like gamify law enforcement that I think we would clear the streets of all crime, like

Andy Ihnatko (02:28:21):
In 10 seconds, if they could basically, if there's an app that something like send them to the next place where they could catch like a drug dealer, like, Ooh, Ooh, Ooh. Just, just give them like a vaguely Japanese game and a really cool emoji. Like I've their mugshots that turn them into emoji and say, Ooh, gotta catch 'em all. Yes, please do

Leo Laporte (02:28:37):
Petitioners schools admitted leaving their foot beat area in search of Snorlax, but they insisted they did. So both as part of an extra patrol and to catch it was a dangerous snor

Alex Lindsay (02:28:51):
Overcoats <laugh>. I mean, they thought that the,

Leo Laporte (02:28:53):
The Snorlax was dealing

Alex Lindsay (02:28:54):
<Laugh>. Yeah, exactly. Snor like huggy,

Andy Ihnatko (02:28:58):
You know, you know who, I really blame huggy bear, cuz word on the street was that it was foggy bear. The big Cris were going after the Pokemon.

Leo Laporte (02:29:07):
This is Starsky and hu reference. Well, you know that, you know, that Pikachu was a shock caller, of course. Right? Like, like that's just gotta be the shock call. <Laugh>

Alex Lindsay (02:29:14):
An awful lot of people watching you. Just like, what are these guys?

Leo Laporte (02:29:16):
Huggy bear. Oh no. You know what? As Lisa will reassure me at all time, people still play Pokemon go. Yeah. It cause every time it's on a, we drive by the Mormon church or no, I'm sorry. It's not Mormon. It's well, whatever the church by our house, she swears they got the gym again. <Laugh> and she has to put a red guy back in it every time <laugh> they got my gym. Lisa knows how Lisa knows how to she know the, the, the

Alex Lindsay (02:29:43):
Craziest one is still the it's actually probably when I stopped playing Pokemon was when I was at the HAA Sophia in, in, in Budapest or in yeah. Budapest. No,

Leo Laporte (02:29:52):
Not Budapest.

Alex Lindsay (02:29:54):
I always confused. It's yeah. And I was in the middle of the night. We were we were walking past it and there's a whole bunch of people all hunched over and they're next to the HOIA and they're all hunched over playing Pokemon the most beautiful there's the church in the, and I was like, yeah, I was just like, really

Leo Laporte (02:30:11):
<Laugh> I can seen Joseph in Montreal. I can actually beat you. I've told this story on other shows, but I was, we Lisa and I were in Malta and and we were standing there, you know, as one does spinning and throwing our poke balls. And a bunch of guy, young guys comes up to us, we're getting a little nervous they're and they, they don't speak English going, come on, come on on. And they brought us back to the multi cathedral, beautiful cathedral. And they say raid raid <laugh>

Alex Lindsay (02:30:39):
We all,

Leo Laporte (02:30:39):
It was a beautiful moment of togetherness cross cultural. There're still no gyms at apple park. If I could just put that out there for people who might be thinking when they're and adding some there's still no gyms telling them that there's gyms at infinite loop, but there's no gyms at apple park. That's interesting. It's

Alex Lindsay (02:30:53):

Leo Laporte (02:30:55):
Let's take a little break on that note, your picks of the week coming up next guys this episode of Mac break weekly brought to you by our crowd. What a neat idea. Those of us in the tech industry often see deals. Kevin Rose always said, you know, you should invest. You've got deal flow. Eh, you know, I don't know. I, I think I would just, I wouldn't know what to do, but if you're an investor and you've done all the, you know, you've put away money for your retirement and I don't want you to bet the rent or anything like that. But if you're an investor looking to get into deal flow of companies, not even public, yet companies in the very earliest stages companies really where the potential for growth is best you ought know about I, our crowd, it's a venture capital group that wants to share the wealth with everybody all around the world.

Leo Laporte (02:31:45):
Tech companies are innovating and driving returns for investors. Our crowd analyzes companies across the global private market, private they're looking for companies with the greatest growth potential. And then they present them to you as a potential opportunity to invest in areas like personalized medicine, cyber security, breakthrough stuff like robotics, quantum computing it all over the world is state-of-the-art labs. Startup garages, anywhere in between our crowd is identifying innovators. So you can invest when the growth potential is greatest early. Now you, you should go, it's free to sign up for our crowd, by the way, go to our break. You enter in which country you're in because every country has different rules about this. I in the us, they call it an accredited investor. You have to satisfy certain net worth requirements. And it's really to protect people from betting the rent money.

Leo Laporte (02:32:38):
This has to be for some who has investment. Money is looking for a new way to invest accredited investors at our crowd have already invested over a billion dollars in growing tech companies. 21 of our crowds portfolio companies are unicorns worth more than a billion dollars. And many of our crowds members have benefited from over 40 IPOs or sale exits of portfolio companies. That's why you want to get in early. You want to get in before the exit, before the rest of the world knows what's going on. You have to be accredited. You can get started for a as little as $10,000. That's the minimum required to invest. You can get into a single company deal for that. If you want, our grant also has put together funds. So if you feel more comfortable with the $50,000 is the minimum investment there, but terms will vary as I said, depending on where you invest.

Leo Laporte (02:33:27):
So go to the site, input the country. I'll give you an example of some of the early deals though. There's one they're they're working right now that you could invest in right now called blue tree, who could revolutionize the billion dollar plus total address food tech market blue. Tree's developed a process to significantly reduce the sugar in any natural liquid lowering health risks while retaining great tastes. It seems like a brilliant idea. Blue tree's already signed a five year, a hundred million liter contract with an industry leader you can get in now early by investing at our crowd, but that's just an example. Invest in blue tree, just go to our break, join for free O U R C R O w break. You can join the fastest growing venture capital investment community, at least get the information. See what they're looking at that by itself is fantastic. It's fun. And then maybe you're gonna see something and say, you know what I want to get in on this? And you can our crowd O U R C R O w break. All right, now let's see here. I think it's time for a pick of the week. Me, I'm gonna start with you Renee Richie. What's your pick of the week, this week.

Rene Ritchie (02:34:42):
All right. So my, this is me I'm really excited about. So Cleo Abram has been working at Fox for years. She's worked on the V explain series for Netflix, worked on a ton of videos for V as a really, really good TikTok account. She has just so immensely talented as a journal list, but she decided to go Indy recently because she thought that a lot of journalism these days is, is kind of a little bit cynical. You know, it's not, it's not as optimistic as she would like. And she thinks that we live much. Like I do. Like we live in an age of wonders and it's not everything that we have around us now is gonna become a change agent for the future. And it's hard to predict which ones will, but she wants us sort of F look them out, find them and do like real, you know, down on the earth, journalism about them.

Rene Ritchie (02:35:24):
So she can sort of watch them as these different things are all attempted. And so she's, she's gone independent. Now. She started a new YouTube channel and she's gonna be posting regularly doing a, a really like deep dive into a lot of the potentially formative technologies that we're seeing emerge right now. And I just couldn't be more excited because she is so immensely talented and this will give her the freedom that I think she really needs to, to not just like whenever you do, like for a big media organization, even really good ones like Vox, there's always a lot of limitations on what you can do. And a lot of other concerns and competing at agendas. And I think this will just let her be her. So I'm really excited about it. She has her first video up already.

Leo Laporte (02:36:05):
She's got a really cute dog too. I might, I might add <laugh>. Yeah. I mean,

Rene Ritchie (02:36:09):
She's just,

Leo Laporte (02:36:10):
I, I love the name of this huge asterisk, if true. Cleo, a, B R a M. There's her puppy. Oh my goodness. You boy.

Rene Ritchie (02:36:19):
What a good boy.

Leo Laporte (02:36:21):
<Laugh> so the first video already, 70,000 views. Why I left Fox? That's it, I'm not familiar with her work, but that's great. 

Rene Ritchie (02:36:28):
Yeah. And she got the huge of true from just like you see the part of the video. She shows a bunch of tweets from well known analysts, just flashing by with all these sarcastic repli saying huge of true. Huge of, yeah. Merges that into her logo. Yeah, that's

Leo Laporte (02:36:41):
Good. I like it. It's a good premise. Yeah.

Rene Ritchie (02:36:43):
Optimistic journalism was always gonna have a place in my heart. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:36:46):
It's you know, there was a recent piece from the editor in chief at wired saying, you know, when wired was started, it was optimistic. It was all about how tech is gonna change the world to make a better world. But over time, especially under his leadership, it's gotten more and more negative. And he said, we gotta, we gotta recalibrate. We don't wanna be pure optimist, but we don't wanna be pure pessimist either. So we gotta see it, call it as it lays. And and when something is exciting and new and transformative, we should say that it's a challenge we have too. It's easy to get very cynical and

Rene Ritchie (02:37:16):
Negative. Well, also, you see that, like in a lot of the critiques now of the wall street journal, Washington post and New York times that a lot of it is taking stories that could legitimately go either way. But, but because peop people have tested this too. They'll put up a positive version of a story and a negative version of the story, and we'll click on the negative one way more than we a positive one. Yeah. And sometimes bottom lines just went out with that and they noticed the trends and they go for it and you have to make a concerted effort. Like it takes energy to move things forward in a positive way. And like you said, I don't, I don't espouse like whitewashing anything or being overly, but we live in an age of wonders and it's okay to sort of enjoy those things. Like while you're being skeptical while you're being realistic about it. But we live in an age of wonder, isn't it fun to celebrate that too? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:37:56):
Yeah. Cleo Abram huge if true new YouTube channel, nothing up yet, except the preview, but the, maybe that's time to smash the, what is it? <Laugh> smash

Rene Ritchie (02:38:09):
The like button. It does subscribe button,

Leo Laporte (02:38:12):
Do all that thing. Do those things as YouTubers talking about Andy and ACO,

Andy Ihnatko (02:38:15):
Pick it the way mine is a screensaver, believe it or not, but a really, really cool one. What, there's a design there's I know they, they still exist. And so, and those are who are using you know, 24 inch CT, Sony trons connect to your max. You definitely wanna prevent burn for those phosphorus are very vulnerable. But I, this one really got my attention because it's it reproduces a clock that was produced by a Swedish design company. That is so cool. It is a bank of 24 clock faces just our hand and minute hands and the hands themselves keep revolving to make the shapes of a digital clock. So we'll tell you what time it is, like 1234, but it'll be these hands from these individual clock face turning to basically make the shapes of these letters and numbers, and also different styles and different patterns.

Andy Ihnatko (02:39:02):
Now if I, if, if I had not gone for the less lucrative, but more personally fulfilling field of inter independent journalism, I might be able to, to afford the $6,000 limited edition clock that this Swedish design firm created. Fortunately this developer just posted on GitHub just a few days ago a screensaver version of this, and it shows you exactly how cool these animations are. I've had it running like since since Monday. And it's like, not only is it just cool to be able to look across the office and see what time it is in a very, very cool way and pretend that I can afford a 6,000 thousand dollar mantle clock, but also it reminded me that screensavers are supposed to be cool and entertaining flying toasters made us all happy. Like, why don't we have like really good screensavers anymore for that matter? Why don't we have, why don't we have really good, like apple music visualizers anymore? Why do we only have like the one thing especially for, for all these different, it screens, all these really good, like apple TV devices we have. So I've, I've, I've had this thing installed. Yes. It only runs for, for me for about 45 minutes before the system says, oh, by the way, I'm, I'm gonna go into low power mode now, but for those 45 minutes, it's, it's a pretty good time. Brad root it's

Leo Laporte (02:40:13):
Open source written in swift. In fact, he even says shows you how you can add animations in swift. Yeah. If you want to, which is very, very cool, nice job. Nice. And again, it's a get, so you can get, you can get the Xcode project, you can make modifications, you can see how it works. Yeah. Yeah, really cool. In fact, you can help him make the numbers not negative because he didn't, he was too lazy to go back and make 'em positive after reworking the animation system, he says <laugh>. So that would be a good poll request. You might want to submit just, just for that Mr. Alex, Lindsay, I saved the best, well, maybe not the best, but the most expensive for last. What do you got

Alex Lindsay (02:40:52):
Is some of it's expensive and some of it's not. So this one looks expensive. It can be yeah. So the so we had Harrison consoles on this morning actually, and I didn't really know much about them to be honest, they've been around for 40 years. But I hadn't really used Harrison consoles. I'd heard about them, but I didn't really know much, much about it at all. They don't go to a lot of conferences and I just hadn't seen them. It turns out that about 10 years, 13 years ago, they pivoted and started you know, doing virtual, you know, dos, you know, digital audio workstations you know, based using their own it's all software. Well, they make hardware. And so they were already going, they had already moved to software based mixers hardware mixers. They had started with analog hardware mixers, and they went to software based in like 2004, 2005.

Alex Lindsay (02:41:38):
Then they started doing dos. And what happened was at the beginning of COVID, everyone was looking, all of us were trying to figure out how do I mix audio in the cloud? And so they're all looking around. And the only thing that really was close was their mix bus. This is a mix bus. Now this is VBM. This is what actually a, what they ended up with. And they're just releasing in the last couple months. So mixed bus, 32 and mixed bus itself. Those are relatively inexpensive little dos that will let you, that you can actually mix a show with. And they are 50 bucks and $350 each, depending on which one you have now, this one, this cloud ready broadcast mixer is $2,800 a year. Like this is when you get serious and go, I'm going to make a business out of this. This is what you can, you know, get as a you know, kind of a monthly for, I don't, you know, it's

Leo Laporte (02:42:25):
Can all the inputs be in the cloud too. I mean, is it,

Alex Lindsay (02:42:28):
Yeah, so basically you can use NDI, so you can basically have a show and have, cause a lot of us are building shows where we have for, so we have a bunch of zoom in the cloud and we're pushing those via NDI out into a, into a switcher, like vMix in the cloud, but the hardest part was what do you do with the audio? And like, how do you make the audio work? And so you can now pass this into it. And big companies like Google and Yahoo and, you know, a bunch of other people are testing it like sky and other folks are like, this is the thing right now. Now that is, that is working, you know, for what they're doing. And and so it, and they built it, basically what they did is they took a whole bunch of input over the last year and started building in all the mixed minuses.

Alex Lindsay (02:43:06):
So instead of having to like design a mixed minus that you would normally do in the, do you just hit a button, this is another contributor. And, and, you know, and, and so they've had a lot of really good input. And so, so anyway, so it's, if you're trying to do something, I mean, it'll work locally as well as a software mixer. But it it's, it is what, what a lot of people are using it for is is putting it like literally on an AWS instance. And then now all audio can be managed and powerfully. And again, it was something that I was pretty even even doing what I do. I had heard it go by a little bit, but until a couple weeks ago, I didn't even know it existed. It was someone in office hours was saying, oh, we really need to bring, we really need to bring these guys on. They're doing something pretty cool. And and so when I met with them last week, he can talk and talked about it and started. And, and then some of our folks in our group already use it. And they were like, oh, this is great. This is what we use. And so, so anyway, so we're pretty excited. We're gonna start using this a lot in our in our own cloud productions.

Leo Laporte (02:44:05):
Wow. That's really cool. Yeah, really neat. It is Harrison, which is that Harrison That's right there on the front page mix bus, VBM kids. It's it's about the time we wrap this thing up. All those rat holes made the show an hour longer than usual. So I <laugh>, I thought we have anything to say, <laugh>

Alex Lindsay (02:44:31):
We never have that problem.

Andy Ihnatko (02:44:35):
The challenge. This is why the, this is why the teacher, this is why the teacher keeps separating us because, you know, put us on the same road together. They just disrupt the

Leo Laporte (02:44:41):
Whole class. <Laugh> yeah, exactly. You could find That is that is the full-time. It's not just Alex, it's much, much more full-time zoom conference that is on Twitter. Sorry. YouTube. You stream the whole thing on YouTube now, right?

Alex Lindsay (02:45:02):
We, yeah, we, we put it all on YouTube. We, we don't stream all of it. We stream two hours a day of it, but it's people are talking 24 hours a day. There's two hours that we, that we make it look like a show. One thing

Leo Laporte (02:45:13):
We started doing the just on in the background.

Alex Lindsay (02:45:15):
Yeah. We're all just talking like these random conversations and depending on who's there, it just becomes kind of a geeky conversation. I would

Leo Laporte (02:45:22):
Love this keynote deep dive with Alex Lindsay. That looks really

Alex Lindsay (02:45:25):
Good. Yeah, we did that. So we're starting our education hour, two, two hours on Saturday has now we've added another hour to it. So it's three hours long and it is but it's technical talks. So technical talks that hopefully impact educators are people in education of all kinds. Oh, nice. And so we wanted to do last week. We did, I did kind of a, it wasn't, I mean, it was really like we, we started doing just all the things the way I, I, I build three or four slide decks a week in keynote. And so I was just, is talking about some of the here's some of the tools that I use that I, I don't see anybody else use. Yeah. So just me talking about the things that I use that no one else uses. And then next week we're we have, we have some great folks coming on to talk about they're gonna talk about how they're using VI live the, the live video inside of keynote for, to build a video. So literally you can just use keynote as a video production. They're using it as a live video production tool. Like they're cutting to things and showing things and playing videos and everything else with a live input from a switcher going into keynote in real time. And so they're gonna talk a little bit about that, and I'm gonna show a couple examples of that as well. So we're gonna talk about the, the new live, the newer live video support in keynote. And we'll be talking about that on this, the Saturday

Leo Laporte (02:46:39):
On Sabado Chiante <laugh>.

Alex Lindsay (02:46:45):
That was, that was a little while ago, but yeah, yeah. That's that was, we, we, we did four hours. We had concerts and cooking and all kinds of stuff. That's super Saturday. Yeah. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:46:56):
Office And of course, if you wanna hire Alex as many, many do some of the biggest companies and governments in the world. Oh, nine Oh, nine Oh,

Alex Lindsay (02:47:07):
Oh nine. Yeah. Oh 9 0 9 0 9. Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:47:10):

Alex Lindsay (02:47:11):
I skip that. Exactly. And we, we do yeah. Virtual events and complex pipelines.

Leo Laporte (02:47:17):
Mr. Andy NACO w GB H Boston next performance

Andy Ihnatko (02:47:24):
On 1230 on Friday go to GBH news w GB live, or, or, or later to stream it live or later. And I'm also going to be doing an, an AMA on on the TWI discord of right after I finish doing NPR. So questions, if you remember any questions you have about me or any questions, you ideally questions that are not about me, but you'd like them, my, my opinion on will be a problem. Cause I really that interesting. I will not know that's that, but, and lemme just, lemme just start off with, I'm not telling you what is behind the screen. Oh, that's

Leo Laporte (02:47:58):
What we really wanna know.

Andy Ihnatko (02:47:59):
There there's a, there's a legal issue there. There's,

Leo Laporte (02:48:02):
<Laugh>, there's a person there's a person behind the, behind the screen that is for, by the way, club, TWI members. And we'd love to have you join club TWI now, hours and strong and growing. And it's really helpful for us to smooth out the economic ups and downs, especially during COVID, it's been kind of crazy, but also it's a great way to get extra content from TWI $7 a month. You get ad free versions of all the shows. You also get access to the TWI discord, which is always a great place to hang. And that's where we do some of these events, like Andy's asked me anything this week. Stacy has her book club, Stacy Hiba them's book club there the GIZ fizz, the untitled Lenox show. There's all sorts of stuff going on in the club, TWI discord plus you know, you get the TWI plus feed, which is where Andy's asked me anything will end up as after it's all done.

Leo Laporte (02:48:54):
And there's all sorts of stuff in the TWI plus feed, including stuff before and after the show that that believed it or not is often more interesting than the shows themselves Friday 10:00 AM. Andy and NACO, that's gonna be something to listen to. You can listen live, or after the fact on the triples feed. If you're not a club TWI member, why the heck not? We want to invite you to join just go to TWI. There's also corporate memberships. We have several corporate members now as well. And we welcome that. It's great to have you. Thank you so much. Club TWI members is on YouTube, Richey. Yes, sir. Oh, you I'm just giving you a chance to plug something. Oh, you're so nice to everybody else. You should plug yourself. Sometimes

Rene Ritchie (02:49:40):
I did a, a two minute highlight reel of the original Steve jobs, iPhone introduction, but with footage from the last 15 you years of introductions, just so that I love those words are so iconic, but you can see the entire sort of history of the iPhone play out in the, in those two minutes of him announcing it. That's

Leo Laporte (02:50:00):
That's what a great idea. I am definitely watch that. That sounds really, really cool. Join the three and at 3000 subscribers now who are devotes of Renee's Richie. There's also the untold history of the iPhone. Yeah. Oh, nice. So many stories. So many stories

Rene Ritchie (02:50:22):
I'm working on a continuation of that. I wanna do a part two where it talks about Eric, Eric Schmitz interest gambit between the Android team and the iPhone team as to who knew what and when about, you know, everything that was going on.

Leo Laporte (02:50:35):
Ooh, that's fun. That's fun. Very nice. You're doing such a good, good job. Renee Richie is on YouTube smash. The subscribe button hit the bell, ding the do do it all. Cuz he's awesome. What's now there's this thing that says join next to the subscribe button. What's that mean?

Rene Ritchie (02:50:54):
Oh yeah. That's I'm testing that out because Patreon is, is like it's different. Like it's very different and YouTube has this new membership thing. Oh where they let you have like a members only area and let you offer members only videos and stuff. So I'm trying it out. Might move from Paton to, I'm not sure yet everything in one basket versus the convenience of integration. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:51:13):
So you can do both, I guess you can't really reasonably

Rene Ritchie (02:51:16):
Y you can like, it's just, it's just maintaining all these digital gardens at some point.

Leo Laporte (02:51:20):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I support it. That's great. Join. I'm gonna join. Yeah. we do Mac break weekly of a Tuesday. We start a little late because well, we were talking about comic books. You know how it is. <Laugh> normally you may, you should tune in at 11:00 AM Pacific for the comic book conversation 11:00 AM Pacific 2:00 PM. Eastern 1800, I'm sorry, 1900 UTC of a Tuesday morning or afternoon, depending on where you are. You can watch If you're watching live chat or in the club, TWI discord after the fact on demand versions of the show slash M BW, there's a YouTube channel dedicated to Mac break weekly. And of course the best way to subscribe it, be to get out that podcast player of yours and add us. So you get it automatically, the minute it's available. And if your podcast program allows reviews, would you do me the service of favor of just giving us a five star review? That's all I ask just helps spread the word about Mac break week. Thanks everybody. Get back to work though. Now, because say it with me. Break time is over. Bye. Bye.

Mikah Sargent (02:52:32):
Do you have an iPhone, an Apple watch, an iPad or any number of Apple devices? Well, you have got to check out iOS today with me, Mikah Sargent and Rosemary Orchard. We cover all things iOS and help you get the most out of your devices.

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