MacBreak Weekly Episode 799 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for MacBreak weekly brand new show for 2022. The whole gang is here. Rene. Andy. Alex. We'll talk about Apple becoming the first $3 trillion company. What does that really mean? Augmented reality. Is it truly the future and is Bluetooth holding back AirPods? Yeah, there's lots of rumors too. It's all coming up next for MacBreak Weekly.

.. (00:00:26):
Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is TWiT.

Leo Laporte (00:00:35):
This is MacBreak Weekly episode 799. Recorded Tuesday, January 4th, 2022 rubber suits with ping pong balls. Mac break weekly is brought to you by Wealthfront to start building your wealth and get your first $5,000 managed for free for life. Go to And by ZipRecruiter, several into are projected to grow this year. If you own a business in one of those growing industries, they need to hire, go to zip recruiter. They find qualified candidates for your job. Fast. Try ZipRecruiter free today at And by Imperfect Foods. Imperfect Foods is catching the of food. That's falling through the cracks of our food system by sourcing quirky yet delicious foods. Right now imperfect foods is offering listeners 20% off your first four orders. When you go to and use the promo code Macbreak. It's time for MacBreak Weekly the showwe cover the latest news from that little tiny company in Cupertino, that little $3 trillion company in Cupertino, California on the horn with us via the virtuous virtual Skype zoom discord link. It's Rene Ritchie. Hello, Rene.

Rene Ritchie (00:01:58):
That's $4 trillion Canadian Leo Laporte

Leo Laporte (00:02:01):
<Laugh>. Is it, that's pretty good? I don't know.

Andy Ihnatko (00:02:04):
It goes up and down so much, but I'm just gonna claim it. I'm gonna claim it

Leo Laporte (00:02:06):
As a natural honor. That's pretty good. Also from Rene Ritchie from Richie, of course, and also with us from w GB, H of Boston, Andy and NACO. Hello, Andrew.

Andy Ihnatko (00:02:17):
Hello. It's hard. It's hard. Hard to get used to actually being back at work, even though I'm still in my same old house at, so like I, I did, I did my first like real shave in like 10 days. <Laugh> like not the usual, just like, oh, it's getting itchy. So I'll just buzz off a little I'm I'm talking about like lather wet razor. It's like, wow. I, I remember doing this back in 2021,

Leo Laporte (00:02:38):
The good old days. And of course from office hours, not global in a oh nine oh media, Mr. Alex, Lindsey. Hello, Alex.

Leo Laporte (00:02:48):
Happy New Year. Hello.

Leo Laporte (00:02:49):
All three of you happy new year, 2022, our first MacBreak Weekly of the new year. And apple is no longer a 3 trillion company just like that. It happens only 2.9, four 5 trillion. Currently. Did you guys sell off? Did you see the number and just sell off? Is this your fault? Big sell off? Yeah, exactly. They hit it. Okay. That was my, I wonder, I bet you, there are people who say, you know, they set limits price earning limits and say, okay, so it hits 3 trillion. I want to cash out. Is it meaningful in any other way? I mean really?

Andy Ihnatko (00:03:25):
Yeah, no, it's this is, this is stock evaluation. This is, this is the sum total of investor confidence in the company. So it's meaningful in that. People seem to think that their roadmap is doing very well, but that doesn't mean that every decision they're gonna be make in the next five years is gonna be a good one or that the apple that we know today is gonna be the one that we know two years from now.

Leo Laporte (00:03:44):
Yeah. And I mean, it is valuable to us in the company, right? Because the the price per share helps them acquire talent. Didn't they just say they're gonna pay bonuses to comp to employees that don't leave for Facebook. They were rumor to be throw on a couple, come on a thousand around here and there don't, don't leave for Facebook, please. There's a,

Alex Lindsay (00:04:04):
There's a lot of well, Facebook does the same thing. We know some people that get those bonuses. And so, so the so you know, so a lot of retention where companies will give key employees, I mean, 180,000 is I think what they we're talking about. I've heard of my larger numbers handed the people with four year, you know, vesting. So you know, that hanging onto your key there, you know, in many companies, there is literally a handful, I mean, in a company as big as Apple, it's a couple hundred probably that if you pulled any significant number out of them, things stop working. And so so, but it's, it's really not, you know, an everyone's important, but there are certain people that you gotta make sure that you don't lose to, to maintain continuity between all the products. And so those are, those are folks that oftentimes get stuff sent, thrown at them.

Leo Laporte (00:04:51):
It has some 

Alex Lindsay (00:04:51):
Value of course. Yeah. I'm not sure if it's really that connected between, I mean, it might be connected to Facebook hiring a bunch of their folks, but again, all of these companies have these incentive systems that they're using constantly. So the fact that it came out right now, I mean, and, and a lot of them come at the end of the year. It's just how they manage it. So it's not that uncommon. So I'm not sure how much of this is coincidental versus causal. And I guess you

Leo Laporte (00:05:14):
Could say, if you're getting stock options, you'd rather the price were lower now and higher later <laugh> so this is this I of less value to be people getting new grants than the people who got grants. That's what the value of the stock options are though. Yeah. There's a lot of room to move. Yeah. And I wonder what Amazon does. Do you get your picture taking with Jeff Bazos? If you don't leave disco go Jeff Bazos. <Laugh> right. So many seen the pictures of him on new year's, new year's Eve. He was very different than Tim Cox having a good time. He was styling.

Alex Lindsay (00:05:40):
He drove that little Honda for a long time, but I think he gave the up, he's like,

Leo Laporte (00:05:42):
Okay, enough of this, he's living the life.

Andy Ihnatko (00:05:43):
Now, now, now the door that he uses as his executive desk is actually off the front of the Vatican. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:05:52):
<Laugh> still

Andy Ihnatko (00:05:55):
Stills, not grassroots.

Leo Laporte (00:05:55):
They yeah. Yeah, pit bull was the, was the word that came to my mind as well. Right, Rene Ritchie.

Rene Ritchie (00:06:01):
Were chief people tele Savas I thought was a bit outdated for our proudly pit bulls. Right.

Alex Lindsay (00:06:06):
You know, I, I, I think that what's interesting is, is that it's not apple stock price is not just their performance as a company from a technology perspective, but the financial performance of dividends stock buybacks. I mean, so a lot of the, the reason people are putting money into it there's some great graphs that came out along with the 3 trillion, which show, you know, apple has been steadily buying back, you know, the availability of the stock. So a lot of what the value for each it doesn't, but it just makes it a good place for people to buy

Leo Laporte (00:06:33):
Buybacks increase value, because they reduce the number of shares out there. So you value the share goes up.

Alex Lindsay (00:06:39):
Right. But it doesn't, it doesn't increase, it increases more interest in doing it because each share goes up. Right. But it doesn't necessarily by itself increase value. Cuz I mean, it, it's just, you're just the value, the

Leo Laporte (00:06:48):
Value that hasn't changed. Yeah.

Rene Ritchie (00:06:49):
But it shows the buyback that company has

Alex Lindsay (00:06:50):
Exactly investors are putting money in as a, like a bank. And part of the reason they can do that is because they're because of those buybacks because of the dividends there's there's significant returns oftentimes better returns than they would get from a bank. Yeah. And so, well, definitely better returns than they're getting from a bank. And so it's just this by doing that. So it's, it's a mixture of apple doing really well and a very interesting manipulation of their stock. <Laugh> by, by buying by I can dividend, there's nothing wrong with it or, or, you know, but, but it's it's that they are making sure that investors are getting their return on a regular basis.

Leo Laporte (00:07:26):
They call him the, the wizard of Omaha Warren buffet. Who's equity portfolio is now 40% apple. He bought he bought in a 5% apple stake for 36 billion. Three years ago, 36 billion is now worth 160 billion. That means he made.

Rene Ritchie (00:07:46):
Nice, has a retirement fund at long last.

Leo Laporte (00:07:48):
He made his, he made, you know, over 120 billion over the last three years, not bad, nice work. If you can get it as my stock, broker, uncle always said, Leo, you need money to make money. And that doesn't include the 775 million in annual dividends. And that's a you're right, Alex, that's a big part of the overall profile of apple that's super bowl, snack food. At that level, Leo, it was Philip Elmer Dewitt asked me foolishly to join a SL a slack call or a zoom call with his subscribers who were all apple investors a few months ago. And I felt like the <laugh> the worm and the cheese, because I kept saying, and I obviously I'm, I know nothing. Apple's not going anywhere. <Laugh> why would you buy apple stock? But again, this is not, this is just investor confidence. This is not it's meaningful to apple in the ways we've described, but it doesn't mean necessarily that that Apple's gonna be great tomorrow. Although the wisdom of the crowds is probably fairly accurate

Alex Lindsay (00:08:51):
Here. Well, and the great, the, the, the greatest value for apple for, for the stock and investor confidence is, is, as you said before, it's employee retention and employee acquisition. You know, when we, we talk about like, well, what does that inve you know, what does that get us when they give back dividends? When they, when they, when they move their stock price up? Well, it affects a lot of employees that have stock, you know, it's, it's really spreading the wealth out across that, that group. When they buy that stuff back, they're actually putting money into their own employee stock as, as kind of an indirect bonus.

Leo Laporte (00:09:21):
And as the affor mentioned the Philip Elmer Dewitt mentions in his P E D 30 blog apples service business alone is worth 1.5 trillion. This is, he got this from an investor note to wed Bush clients that Tim cook said in early 2017, our goal is to double the size of the service business over the next four years. And I think you can say that his report card is a plus on that one, based on this is wed Bush's note, based on our supply chain checks over the last few weeks, we believe demand for the iPhone. 13 is outstripping supply by a, for apple, by roughly 12 million units in the last quarter calendar quarter. Yeah. Supply chain issues ease. They think by the first quarter of this year, sh or first half of this year should make a big difference in apple sales. So another reason to be bullish on Apple's future hitting 3 trillion, they right. Will be another watershed moment for apple as the company continues to prove the doubters. Is he talking about me to prove the daughter's wrong? No, it's the law of big numbers. People, Leo he's going from square for the law of big numbers, the Renaissance of growth story playing out in Cupertino services, billion, which we believe to be 1.5 trillion yeah. Dollars it worth to the market, you know, not to apple, but worth to the market.

Andy Ihnatko (00:10:44):
That that's a great testimony to long-range planning for apple years ago. The question amongst everybody would be how long can apple continue to thrive? Based on this enormous hit they've got on their hands called the iPhone today, had they not been thinking ahead, had they not been thinking beyond their current hit product? They would've been dealing with investors saying, well, great. Now we've got supply chain problems. Now you've got problems in investing in problems in having all of your manufacturing in one source on top of having supply chain problems. How that's gonna choke off your ability to sell this one thing. That's making this the biggest wedge of profit of income from on your annual report. Now, what are you gonna do now that that wedge of iPhone sales gets smaller and smaller and smaller? Not because sales are necessarily taping up tapering off, but because they're making more and more and more money off of intangible things like services. And

Leo Laporte (00:11:38):
Isn't that a problem though, because isn't this what wall street loves. They love this idea of revenue, proactive user. They love this idea of quarterly results, constant income. They don't love the idea of putting that money towards long planning. So in a way, isn't this pushing apple in the direction of short term gains.

Alex Lindsay (00:11:59):
I think that Apple's kept them thinking about short term gains by giving them dividends and buy stock buybacks. Yeah. So they basically, you know, give to Caesar what a Caesars, and then they just do what they're gonna do, you know? So, so they're spending the money the way they want to the stock. Market's happy because they're giving the money back directly and indirectly

Leo Laporte (00:12:14):
And you can't knock it. The, the, the estimate is that by 2024 services will be a hundred billion plus year that's

Rene Ritchie (00:12:21):
Asked for, right. He said, just give the money back to the shareholders. They said, okay.

Andy Ihnatko (00:12:24):
Yeah. And, and as Tim cook, as Tim cook once said to a not, not similar investor query, it's like, if you're having problem, if you, if you are upset with our, with our executive decisions, you're welcome to sell your stock. You will find lots of buyers available for it. We think that's what the performance of our stock indicates that our decisions tend to work out for people in the long run. Yeah. So, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:12:47):
Services primarily buoyed by app store revenue, I would think. Yeah, no, I think big surprise. It's not, it's not Apple TV plus that's really rolling in the dough.

Alex Lindsay (00:12:57):
Well, all of them, I think it's just the aggregate, you know, your, your, you know, between apple

Leo Laporte (00:13:02):
Is a great product actually, isn't it? I mean, 30 bucks a month, it's a better product.

Andy Ihnatko (00:13:07):
Yeah. It, it, it allows you to justify services that I don't think many people would spend money for individual relief, but as a package, when you basically, if, if your, if your thought is basically that, you know what, I would actually spend an extra dollar and half a month on apple music, actually, you know what? I don't like iCloud as a file storage system, but as a backup system for my phone and my iPad, I think that's good. It's

Leo Laporte (00:13:28):
The Amazon strategy, right? They're looking at what, what Amazon did with Amazon prime and saying, you know, that's a good way to make something that maybe is of tenuous value overnight shipping into something of you know, there's so many benefits. How can I say no? And it's really about psychology, more than anything else. Well, in

Alex Lindsay (00:13:45):
Savings, it turns out

Leo Laporte (00:13:46):
You does more, even if you want all of, if you wanted all these, but I think the psychology is, you know, I'm really only gonna pay for apple music, but since I can pay a little bit more at apple arcade and apple TV plus press the inverse of

Rene Ritchie (00:13:57):
Prisoners dilemma, isn't it you're trying to see would like people take the little least for the most it's.

Leo Laporte (00:14:01):
Yeah. I think there's a little game theory. I really do think there's a little game. Yes. Would you

Andy Ihnatko (00:14:04):
Like to supersize that for just 75 cents more? Well, okay, sure.

Leo Laporte (00:14:07):
Yeah. Supersize. Yeah. I mean, I keep thinking I'm gonna do apple fitness plus any day now. <Laugh>, it's fine. It's fun. It

Rene Ritchie (00:14:14):
Is really good. I, I find like the ramp up is hard. Like there, like there's a lot of like kind of simple stuff and there's a lot of really hard stuff. I just wish there was more in level in the middle stuff. And also like, I'd like dedicated stretching. I'd like things that aren't like high impact or yoga,

Leo Laporte (00:14:28):
And I'd love to get a couple bucks months back for the apple news plus I never read. And, and there are better money. The obvious, I think, I think give you

Rene Ritchie (00:14:37):
Money for the ads that are in news plus. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:14:39):
They don't, they don't do that.

Andy Ihnatko (00:14:40):
They don't do that. Apple, apple news, apple news plus is a big win for me just because I D I can't justify 30 bucks a month for the wall street journal. It's the magazine justify. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So it makes its money back for me, the

Leo Laporte (00:14:51):
Periodicals, as opposed to the news feed. Yeah. I actually

Rene Ritchie (00:14:53):
Biggest email a lot because it doesn't have the crazy algorithmic headlines. Like if I go to any other service, it is always the worst stuff that is promoted on top. And Apple's editors are actually really good at giving me information that keeps me alert, but not anxious. And that's worth this way to gold to be right

Alex Lindsay (00:15:07):
Now. Yeah. It does seem like the same feed for like, at least if that's how it feels. I don't know whether it is or not, but it seems like, oh, it's the same collection of, of stuff that I should probably look at. I mean, my biggest complaint is is that if you block something you say, I don't wanna see something, it still puts it there. Like we, we could put something here from there and I'm just like, why are we doing that?

Leo Laporte (00:15:25):
Like, if I signal,

Alex Lindsay (00:15:27):
If I said, I didn't want to get something from there, you know, it means I don't want to see anything from there. And I don't quite understand

Andy Ihnatko (00:15:34):
Does that. I'm glad I'm, I'm glad I have both both apple news and Google news, like both on my desktop at the same time. However, this is another way where the devil's bargain really pays off because Google's Google news is almost psychic at figuring out what I, it knows, not just broadly what topic I'm in, interested in, but specifically what part of software development I'm interested in? What part of self-driving cars am I, am I interested in legislation? Yes. Am I interested in technology? Yes. Am I interested in, in like pro promotional stuff? No, and it's really, really good at that. That's one area, but I, but I I'm, I think they balance each other really well for the reasons that you state the highly curated nature of apple news means that when I'm looking at a topic that I don't have a laser focus on, it's nice to know that. Do do I need to grab my go bag and steal a car and head west? Or do I not have to do that this morning? I don't great. Now I'll take a look at Google news.

Leo Laporte (00:16:30):
I think though, if you look at all of the service is in apple services. It's hard to say that anyone is the best in class. For instance, apple music. It's good. Yeah, but there are other better services. It depends what you're looking at. If you're looking at through the lens of artist payouts, which lately I've started to think about Amazon unlimited and Rapsody, I are better. They're best

Rene Ritchie (00:16:54):
Integrated, much better. Ios users. They're

Andy Ihnatko (00:16:56):
Better. They're better, but, but they're apple music is still paying a lot more than Spotify and

Leo Laporte (00:17:01):
Spotifys. Not so good. Yeah. These, this is the graphs, apple, YouTube music is absolutely kind in the middle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Youtube's terrible. Youtube red actually is better than apple. Believe it or not. Oh, okay. So apple pays half as cent, little more than half percent per play. Youtube read the premium version of a YouTube pays eight tenths of ascent, nine tenths of ascent for title. It's a penny per play for Napster and a little more than a penny per play for Amazon. But then if you go down from Google play music, which is half ascent as well, it gets a lot worse, easier Amazon prime. And that's the one you're thinking of, which is 0.0, the INDs don't

Rene Ritchie (00:17:36):
Have any margin to play with. Like all lot of the other companies have other huge businesses and they can afford to use this as a loss leader, or at least over the top service where those companies need to. It's like Blackberry and Palm back in the day, Microsoft had windows money. Samsungs had refrigerator money, apple had Mac money, anything goes wrong when that's your only business and that's it for you. So they, yeah, they're much more

Leo Laporte (00:17:54):
Tightly matched by the way. This is for 2020 and the sources sound They combined sources from a number of different information from a number of different sources. So, but so by my original point regard, regardless of that is, is in any one category is app. I mean, apple TV plus not the best streaming service. I think

Alex Lindsay (00:18:16):
They need to be. I think that, I think what they do is they give you a good composite. I mean, the, the, you know, the, I don't in

Leo Laporte (00:18:21):
Aggregate, they're better than they are in individual. It's predictable.

Alex Lindsay (00:18:25):
They're boutique. It's kinda like, yeah. Yeah. You mean, I think that you're all always gonna find a better cup. You can find a better cup of coffee than Starbucks, but can you find it all the time? That's a good point.

Leo Laporte (00:18:34):
That's the issue, you know what you nailed the apple one is the Starbucks of services. Yeah,

Alex Lindsay (00:18:39):
Yeah, no, I think it is. I mean, so every

Leo Laporte (00:18:41):

Andy Ihnatko (00:18:43):

Alex Lindsay (00:18:43):
Think your name. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's easy. It's it's and there are things that like, if you get, if you get addicted to spatial then there's not any O other options really quickly. Well, don't,

Leo Laporte (00:18:53):
I mean, others titles do at most, so I mean, others

Alex Lindsay (00:18:55):
Are doing really expensive and it, and it's very limited. Yeah. So, so ti title, I, I, you know, anyway, I, title title has, has had it for a long time, but the lists have been very limited. Yeah. And the, and there was never gonna go anywhere with title in what, what really turned switch on was apple. Yeah. So when apple started pushing it down the path, and now that they're updating everything, every major record company is building, like, they're not thinking about making new albums, new major releases without a spatial mix, you know, and that's a much different place than they were a year ago.

Rene Ritchie (00:19:26):
Alex can actually hear the recording engineer in the mix. So you have to be very careful when you provide

Leo Laporte (00:19:33):
It's like when you listen to you know, piano players and you hear them grunting as they essay players,

Alex Lindsay (00:19:39):
It's not, it's, it's funny. It's, it's not all working. Like the, the interesting thing is, is that it's not, all of the mixes are working in spatial. So they're, there's things that are, they're experimenting a lot, a lot of experimenting. A lot of them are. And I was, you know, like I'm a big fan of Appalachian spring by, by Aaron Copeland. And I went back to the old one because the, the new one that they, they put into spatial, it was like, everything was like too soft and too in weird places. And, and I was like, oh, they didn't, they haven't figured this one out yet. So I'm gonna go back to what I was doing before. But, but a lot of them are really you know, it's really impressive when they get it going.

Andy Ihnatko (00:20:11):
I, I gotta say, though, for all services, including apple, I really wish they would simplify this, the process of hearing music and anything other than compressed normal streaming, because it will, a service will tell you that, Hey, this is, this is available in loss list. That's fine. But what's happening at your end? Do I have to F lip a switch somewhere in settings to say, to tell this app, please don't, please make sure that you that's.

Leo Laporte (00:20:37):
Cause everybody's got some, some different way of, of listening, right? I mean, there's,

Andy Ihnatko (00:20:42):
It's done for the last it wasn't until I have a, I had an,

Leo Laporte (00:20:45):
You have the hip and you have that will,

Andy Ihnatko (00:20:48):
He will actually tell me, well, no, no, it's not just the, quality's the lights on it. Yeah, yeah. That it will tell you that here, here is exactly what is coming out of your computer right now is coming through the headphones. I'm like, wow. You know, I'm so glad I've got these new headphones. Oh, wait a minute. I'm actually listening to streaming. Compressed, what the hell? What, what did I not turn on? Make that happen? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:21:05):
It's too about your ears. Can't tell the difference. Just you have to use the lights to, to know. I mean, I

Andy Ihnatko (00:21:10):
Can hear, I can hear as long as I can post on Instagram, I've got that. I've got the white light flashing. That's fine.

Leo Laporte (00:21:16):
That's right. I think the other thing, you know, what I'm talking about and, and, and this is good marketing for them is the family plan. You share it with five other people, which just really encourages everybody to be on the iPhone. And of course that's good for apple, so, mm. Yeah. Although,

Rene Ritchie (00:21:31):
I mean, like they, they have made, they do know that the value of the family plan will be in big gadget family. So like, there's, there's apple music for Android and they've built TV plus into like ties into televisions. Now have TV plus into it, into them. <Laugh> oh yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:21:43):
You wanna, make's less friends. So some people, yeah. So like, if your kid is

Rene Ritchie (00:21:46):
Rebelling and getting an Android and a ties TV, they can still be part of the family. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:21:51):
How dare they, Tyson TV, how dare they

Andy Ihnatko (00:21:56):
Let's take Scott. Your name is now green bubble. <Laugh> green bubble.

Leo Laporte (00:21:59):
Hey, deal with it. Get in here. Green bubble. Let's take a little break. We'll come back here. There's a little bit, a tiny bit of apple news. Not a, not a huge amount. So we

Rene Ritchie (00:22:08):
Could go over every single case announced that CES Lee will be here for 12 hours.

Leo Laporte (00:22:11):
That's true. That's true. CES started this week. They're gonna, just because of COVID, they're gonna make it one day shorter. That'll help possibly go overall. That'll help. <Laugh>

Rene Ritchie (00:22:21):
Yeah. And 95 percentt here.

Alex Lindsay (00:22:24):
Let's, let's take a whole bunch of people who already bought their flights and leave them in Vegas for, for an extra day, without anything to do what could possibly,

Leo Laporte (00:22:31):
Oh my gosh. <Laugh> people, companies have been doing virtual keynotes, things like that. Apple hasn't gone to CES in years, so it doesn't really affect the apple 

Rene Ritchie (00:22:40):
Crowd it's okay. Intel was wearing a bunch of apple

Leo Laporte (00:22:42):
Watches that made up for it for me. <Laugh> were they really? Yeah, it's funny. You know what I miss? And the one thing that's fun about CES is going to the team V area and those massive displays. Oh yeah. The top displays they do. <Laugh>

Rene Ritchie (00:22:54):
My, my $20,000 TVs for basketball players. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:22:57):
My favorite is always the China village. You know, like you go into the that's too in the, in the north, usually it's, I think it's buried in the north hall. You, you get over there and you, and it's just all these, these OEMs they're looking for OEMs, you know, so it's just products that haven't become products yet. And then you see, you know, I always find that a fun place to explore, although yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:23:14):
Maybe next year.

Alex Lindsay (00:23:16):
Oh, maybe, maybe

Rene Ritchie (00:23:17):
Until to put up a graph, Leah, where they're showing better performance per wa than M ones. I'm really, I'm

Leo Laporte (00:23:23):
Interested to see that. That must be true. Uhhuh. Yeah. It's interesting. They even mentioned the M one. Well, you know, we understand now we're getting it's on the graph. Yeah. It's on the

Alex Lindsay (00:23:32):
Graph. I think, I think the real challenge for a lot of these for CES and everyone else is that the companies are starting to figure out a way to that. They're they're starting to don't they emperor who has no clothes starting to become very clear, like don't weren't were we really getting ROI out of this? And, and I think that a lot of them are starting to move to other solutions. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (00:23:49):
Yeah. Well, one, one small thing that tying, tying also into like my favorite things of CES is that absolute BS, one off thing that they, that manufacturer will make that they have no intention of ever. So, but they just made this up so that the news crew would hell end on it. Or in modern times, the, the, the top like YouTube YouTube text channels would get your, that their exclusive sweet time with this exclusive prototype of something that is not gonna be released for yet, but we got our hands on it for the first time. And now you see, you see a couple different channels that like they're getting this week, last week, they got their, they got to do videos about things that are like came right out of a flight case. And as soon as they're done with it has to go right back into the flight case and ship right back, cuz it has to go right back to the next person in line. This is, this is the one big opportunity that they can't really match by doing things virtually by we have this, we, we only have three copies of this thing. Only two of them are barely working. And for the other one, we desperately want a, an engineer to be standing right by to get it working again, once it stop, once it freezes up on you and you can't get that kind of attention by just simply saying, Hey, we've got, we're gonna give you like a virtual meeting conference in which someone will show you a pre-roll

Alex Lindsay (00:25:05):
The, the, the thing is, is that when people are, I mean, this is what I do. Of course it's virtual conference, like virtual events. And, and the thing is, is that the, the, the companies that are doing really well in this are, you know, if you take a, if you look at an Intel, like when Intel or someone else puts a big booth up in, in CES, that's like $10 million, like for a, for a week, you know, of, of, of stuff, you know, you gimme 10 million is I'll build you a $5 million studio that can do that. I can show you every little bit of this with lots of cameras and we can do interviews and I can still have money for staff. And that's, that's over one conference as opposed to all of them, you know? And so the thing is, is that these, the, the, you know, then you could be just broadcasting every day.

Alex Lindsay (00:25:41):
And will you have the hit that you had before? No. Will you develop a relationship with your customers possib, you know, over, you know, a constant interaction rather than these kind of specialists, you know, the, the problem with all these physical events is that they cut out 99.9 9, 9, 9, 9% of your addressable market. So, so the, you know, so that, it's, I think that's what we're seeing a lot of manufacturers. I mean, we have some partners that they, they looked over last year and they realized that had 20 times, not 20, not 20% more, but 20 times as many participants than they had before. And that an impact makes sense. If you don't have to fly that Las Vegas, get a hotel run. And so even if it's, even if it's half as effective or quarter over effective, if you multiply it by 20 X, it's still gonna be a higher ROI. And so that's the, that's the issue that's, that's really happening that we're seeing with these and probably why, you know, CES and most of these conferences will go the same way that ones in the past had gone. I mean, we're the, this idea of these Uber, Uber, Uber conventions is probably gonna be gone in five to 10 years. It is a chance though, to get 

Leo Laporte (00:26:44):
To kind of ramp up the excitement and the attention there is Scott Wilkinson tells me there's gonna be a TV technology announced perhaps tonight at the Samsung event. I'm not sure who's gonna announce it. That is going to be a breakthrough. There's something we haven't heard about before, so sure. But you can do that online. You can do it online. Samsung streaming it online, but they are at the niche ballroom. So I think there's something about everybody knows, okay, this is CES week. There's some excitement and, and, and, and, and kind of buzz generated just by the nature of that. That might be, they announced an NFC TV yesterday, Leo. So there's nowhere to go for Samsung, but up, what did they announce? An NFT, an NFT television. Wait a minute. You wait a minute. I don't understand how do you get a TV or you just get the idea of a TV?

Leo Laporte (00:27:28):
I, I think it's a TV that lets you spend an order amount of money on NFT. Oh great. Just what I need, just what I need. This is what I'm gonna buy. You can order. This is what I want from, so you from display NFTs, apple commemorates a year of M one max with a special M one. T-Shirt how do I get that? That's what I'd like to, that's what I'd like to know. You gotta work for apple last year. It's only for the engineers, huh? For the M one or look at eBay. <Laugh> I don't know if these will be sold, actually. I'm gonna ha I'm gonna hold out for the M two. T-Shirt and then

Andy Ihnatko (00:28:02):
I'll I can't, I can't usually fit into an M one, especially during winter, spring or summer. Maybe I, I, I usually got an M two and then counted on shrinking.

Leo Laporte (00:28:12):
Well, the M two's got a smaller footprint. So you might actually wanna go for an M one max t-shirt yeah. You know, that's what I'm doing. That's a nice looking t-shirt that'd be a good thing to have in your in your collection. All right. Let's take a little time out, come back with more with the game. Hang. It's good to see you all again in 2022, Andy and NACO Renee Richie, Alex Lindsay. So hopeful. Yes. A brand new year. We cleaned up all the Santa vomit from the studios <laugh> floors and Burke came in and fixed it after his amazing <laugh> decorat 30 iron hoses, 32nd fires of Santa Claus. <Laugh> looks nice. Although they, they tried to trick me. Was that on purpose? There was one left, one little Christmas ornament hanging under Andy. And NACO just a little Orthodox CT. That's right. Maybe that's what it is. When is Orthodox? Christmas is coming right. 

Andy Ihnatko (00:29:06):
Late this

Leo Laporte (00:29:07):
Week or you get a little extra check, a little something extra. Yes. Yeah. In your stocking, Perro

Andy Ihnatko (00:29:12):
And bros and sausages for everyone. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:29:15):
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Rene Ritchie (00:32:20):
I just, can I just, yes. Can I just, just so he puts out out these reports and we've talked about before, how you need to read like sources familiar with the matter. So this time you put out this report and he's like, I expect, we'll see all the max by WC, meaning like, at least to my read, like apple do they usually do with Mac pros and that is show them off. Yeah. But everyone immediately Apple's gonna finish the rollout by like, there was like 15 articles before I could blink. Yeah. They were completely wrong and he clarified it later, but like, wow. Do they fire fast?

Leo Laporte (00:32:47):
Yeah. Yeah. Cuz they like that, that link bait headline, which is apple will complete the transition by June. That's a real link Beit headline. There is no evidence that that's gonna happen is what you're saying. There's no way. Yeah, that's true. No way. But I mean they could, they could announce a Mac pro probably would at WWDC. They could have done that twice before. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rene Ritchie (00:33:06):
December 31st. Right when Alex wants it.

Leo Laporte (00:33:07):
Yeah. <Laugh> exactly. So what, what, what does mark Iman say? He, he expects a smaller Mac pro with up to this is making I mouth water. I want this t-shirt 40 CPU cores and 128 graphic scores, a new Mac mini we've. You know, we've been wanting that a new, large screened iMac pro the biggest MacBook air redesign and product history. This is what I've been holding up for a little bit. This is gonna be perhaps an M two, an updated entry level MacBook pro new iPad pro with wireless charging. There's not much you could do with the iPad pro at this point, given that you put the M one in it last year,

Rene Ritchie (00:33:54):
M two and magnetic inductive charging, I think are the big ones for this year. M two

Leo Laporte (00:33:58):
This year. You think

Rene Ritchie (00:34:00):
For the app? I iPad pro yeah. I mean like it depends on timing, anything that comes the first half of the year, I think has to be on M two because the process ramp up is gonna be likely four or three nanometers for M three and a 60. And then I don't think that'll be ready to ship before the end of the year. So anything we see in the beginning of the year will be M one M two based cuz the M two of the M five P process that they've used for a 50 and is already good and done. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:34:20):
They can ship that. So M two is based on the M on the 15, a 15 as, as the M one was based on the a 14. But you put more cores in, you put more GPS, you do other things with it. You, you put,

Rene Ritchie (00:34:32):
Yeah, it's more efficient, which is perfect for a MacBook air. Like it, the core, everything runs cooler. It, it has good performance, but cooler performance, which is exactly what you want. So

Leo Laporte (00:34:39):
How fast, in other words I spent <laugh> I bought an M one pro and a MacBook 14 inch MacBook pro is this new MacBook air gonna be faster than that? Because that would be

Rene Ritchie (00:34:50):
Depressing. So on single. So it's the same thing because like when apple shipped the a 12 Z iPad pro it was six months after the, a 13 iPhone. And so the, a 13 iPhone had faster single core performance, then the iPad pro, but that's not what people buy an iPad pro for. That's things that control like web rendering and, and app responsiveness. And so we know from eight 15, that it'll be 10% faster for single core performance cores, 30% faster for efficiency, cores. The graphics cores are way better, but they also throttle more because they're, they made them, I think, too good this time. Yeah. So, but it, it, it should net out too, like single core will be better, but multicore will still be obliterated by any of the, the

Leo Laporte (00:35:27):
Pro max. I apologize, cuz I am obsessed with Mac and obviously the, the vast majority of the world cares about iPhones. So I should mention, there will also be <laugh> they'll also, by the way, they'll also, by the way, there'll be an iPhone se in the first half, according to Urman 5g and a revamped iPhone 14, iPhone 14, four with a whole punch in the fall, the se

Rene Ritchie (00:35:53):
Is gonna be interesting because the battery life on the current se is not terrific. And that's just with an a 13 and an LTE modem. So you put an, a 15 in there and Qualcomms, 5g modems are notoriously thirsty. And if it really is the exact same design, nothing else changed, I'm gonna be really curious how they, they

Leo Laporte (00:36:09):
Net out the batter, like, is that a problem with the just cuz of the size? They just can't put into big battery. Yeah. The bigger,

Rene Ritchie (00:36:14):
The bigger processors need bigger batteries, just because of the, the draw.

Leo Laporte (00:36:17):
Also in the works, according to Urman the Urman three new apple watches, a new se, a series eight and a rugged version aimed at extreme sports enthusiasts. We've been seeing that rumor for a while. Yeah. And the watches come out. I have

Alex Lindsay (00:36:33):
Watch, I have a rugged version. You can see the rugged

Leo Laporte (00:36:35):
Version. Yeah. You ruggedized it. It's doesn't

Andy Ihnatko (00:36:39):
DIPP and plastic to dip better

Alex Lindsay (00:36:41):
Works great. Turns out for $26. I can get a rugged version of the app. Yeah. Also,

Rene Ritchie (00:36:44):
If you hit Alex's watch, it turns into captain America shield. That's

Leo Laporte (00:36:47):
A seldom note that is still the vulnerability. We'll talk about that on the show that is still the vulnerability, both of the phones and the watches is this, you know, bit of glass here or Sapphire, whatever it is that is just gonna, if it, you knock it, it cracks.

Andy Ihnatko (00:37:01):
So yeah, that, that, that's a MIS that's a missing, missing link in the, in the lineup. Cause they're, they're, they're asking people to be more active. They're actually encouraging people to be more active if they, if they, if they just basically said, Hey, Casio, make us a GShock enclosure for this for the apple watch. Oh my God. Would that be a wonderful product? It, mm,

Leo Laporte (00:37:19):
Well, that's kind of what you got there, Alex, this that's what I have a G shock. It's G

Alex Lindsay (00:37:24):
Double watch. I mean, it reminds me when I look at it, it looks exactly like a G shock. Yeah. That I, that I used to own. Yeah. Except that it's there and, and I did it cuz I just was like, I, I bought a new one and then I also learned that constant app update means your, your watch will my not work. <Laugh> like, like this little setting there that, that I finally had to search through, like I got the new one, it was like, I went from the four to the seven or whatever and I wanted to protect it. I was like, I'm spending new money on it. The four looks like it went through a war cuz it did. And and so the so the new one, I was like, I'm gonna protect it. I'm gonna put a thing on it. And it lasts like 12 hours a day or 10 hours a day. It's like it's. And that includes the night when it's just not doing anything. And I realized that once I turn the it's the app update, that's in the new it's in the, I watch it just annihilates it, you know? And so Herman's 

Leo Laporte (00:38:13):
Gorman's through thread was even though 2021 was the most successful year in Apple's history, their pro line while good was not a smash hit of introductions. And that next year or this year, I guess now will be, is that a, is that a Guer

Rene Ritchie (00:38:31):
Begged his premise very quickly

Leo Laporte (00:38:32):
On that? Yeah. I don't know if I can. Yeah, I agree with that.

Alex Lindsay (00:38:37):
I, I, I, I think that apple has a lot of growth in front of them. I mean, I think that that's the case. I mean, I think that it's, I don't know whether that's fair, they're gonna release it, but there's, you know, and, and the thing is, is it's really about a matter of how many apples at a point now where it's really just how many products can they focus on? You know, that's focuses. The real problem for them is to figure out how many things can and they do because there's a lot of things that people would buy if they made them, you know, the home kit is not been super successful in the sense that most of us just wish apple would build those things. <Laugh> like most of us would just be like, I just, you know, that none of them really work and they, and we, we're all pretty clear that they would really work if apple just built it.

Alex Lindsay (00:39:11):
As opposed to trying to get manufacturers who want to do many, many from platforms and many, you know, they wanna support a whole bunch of things. There's a whole bunch of apple users that don't care about all Zig B or any of the other stuff. We're just like, we just wanted to do the thing with our thing really well. And when you do that, we would just buy it, you know, but, but no one wants to the man manufacturers don't wanna do that. They wanna make it available to everyone. And I think that there's some point where apple will turn on those manufacturers. I mean, I'm just saying, I think that there's a point where apple will give up and <laugh>, and just start making locks and other things like that. And, and it'll just toast them all because it's not cuz at some point it just cuz there's a lot of people that we just buy what apple made

Rene Ritchie (00:39:51):
It's there's home type though. It's such a painful branding from apple. It's just

Alex Lindsay (00:39:55):
A painful whole painful all the home, home automation.

Leo Laporte (00:39:58):
Is' not perfect. I mean the airs perfect. Pretty crappy too, but well they also have

Rene Ritchie (00:40:02):
Very small focus. Like they don't, they just don't have the, they don't have the way the company is structured. Yeah. Is to maintain startup emotions inside a big company. I'd be, and there's not enough bandwidth. Like they can barely push out three max and

Leo Laporte (00:40:12):
Be very happy if they continue to focus on the iPhone and these M ones, M two S those and by the way, that's what Garman, I mean, not Kerman. Gruber's whole point is, is modest. What's modest about releasing. Yeah. You know, look at the products they put out last year. I mean, it was, it was a, the far from modest year again.

Alex Lindsay (00:40:31):
And the thing that he does lean towards and we don't know whether it'll be this year or next year or the year after, but you know, apple is building, you know, a massive head of steam for AR the

Leo Laporte (00:40:42):
Holy grail. I'll give you his paragraph for that. The holy grail for 2022 of course will be if apple announces its first virtual reality headset with some AR featured code name N 3 0 1 rolls off the tongue and it's a company OS code named Oak <laugh> realtime operating system. Did they, did they steal away

Rene Ritchie (00:41:05):
Sources reality

Leo Laporte (00:41:06):
Come up with these product names, reality operating system. Yeah. Oh yeah. Ooh, that sounds good. But the timeline for that product has been, has slipped before apple originally targeted 2020, then WWC 21, then WWC, D WW. Do you remember

Rene Ritchie (00:41:22):
Don't do you remember when Joanna asked, asked Craig about that during your interview? And she's like, how's the software going for the, for the mixed reality headset? He's like, I don't know what

Leo Laporte (00:41:29):
You're talking about. Yeah, right. He was just one of 20. They, they don't preannounce so all of this buzz is caused by people like Garman.

Alex Lindsay (00:41:37):
Well, but, but I think that the other thing is that they, when you look at the trajectory of the rollout, they haven't been ready to roll it out and has nothing to do with the hardware. They don't, they haven't put all the pieces in place to build the ecosystem around the hardware. So I don't know if they're really behind, like, I, I know that he says that I'm not clear that they are. I think that if you look at what they're doing, as far as the rollout goes with object capture with what we think will be eventually, you know, moving S D Z across the entire platform those things all want to happen before the hardware comes out, because it's going to create the ecosystem that makes the hardware work better. This is the problem that Google had. Google is five of years ahead, six years ahead, something like that, but they didn't have an ecosystem to support the, the platform itself.

Alex Lindsay (00:42:19):
And apple has been slowly putting all the pieces together, but those pieces haven't been, and they feel like they've been going in a very, you know measured pace, not like they're behind or ahead, but just like, this is the next thing I would give you once you know how to do this. Once, once we give you LIDAR, the next thing I'm gonna give you is object capture. The next thing I'm gonna do is let you take that object capture and put it into keynote and pages. The next thing I'm gonna do, you know, those things have to happen before you put out a piece of hardware. If, if, if you're not in a rush, if you're not trying to make money or you're not trying to beat anybody, you're just trying to win. <Laugh> like with brutal, with brutal efficiency, you would do it just slowly plot all these pieces out because keynote and pages will create a massive demand for 3d models, which will then set up for the AR.

Andy Ihnatko (00:43:02):
Yeah, but I, I, I feel like there's a possibility that we're all being a little bit myopic here that we're thinking that the big thing that we hopefully will see next is going to be some sort of mixed reality headset or mixed realities goggles that will deliver on the promise of object capture of again, interactive 3d models thing, things that things that really, really manipulate our environment around us. I'm starting to, I'm starting to become closer to the more, more affectionate with the idea that the first thing that they roll out will be something that's more similar to the apple watch, where it's just, it's not there to overlay things into your field of vision. It's not there to show you crack a toe exploding on your desktop. It's there so that while you're taking your walk, while you're working out, while you're doing whatever you see a notification appear in your, in the upper left corner of your vision, similar to what an apple watch would deliver. Just simply saying, by the way, if you wanna take, if you want to notice this, there's something here for you to take a look at. If you don't, if you wanna ignore it completely, by all means ignored completely or asking it a question and getting a quick answer. Something like imagine Google glass, but with 2021 technology and also designed by apple that I think that would be more, let me, let me read you

Leo Laporte (00:44:12):
A little blog comment on Philip, ER, do we it's P E D from Thomas Williams, who I think encapsulates our dreams and hopes <laugh> we'll see if it's true.

Andy Ihnatko (00:44:26):
What are those? I, our hopes and dreams. I have those in 2019. Yes.

Leo Laporte (00:44:30):
The real secret sauce. He rights and driver literally and figuratively for apple moving forward is their Silicon paired with 5g networks. Investors need not fully comprehend. 10 tariff flops of performance. A 16 core neural engine is secure on life. Multiple media engines, supporting pro re media and coating, decoding and unified memory architecture. All the they need to know now is the competition may never really catch up these system on a chip features translate to incredible amateur provi performance, but also workable voice control

Rene Ritchie (00:45:01):
Over devices that formally required a keyboard. Augmented reality glass in my spectacles is one thing smart AR glass in my windshield is game changing. He imagines a vision of a future with AR glass paired with high risk cameras, IR and LIDAR sensors, which can change night driving AR assisted manufacturing and repair. I mean, he's, he's basically saying, I think it's way simpler than that. Like the Tim cook is willing to talk about AR VR, AI and automation. Because again, they're not products to him. They're technologies like talking about LCD or OED, our technologies. And I think we will fir it's gonna be a very simple rollout the way we used to see like the original iMac had a CRT display, but then the, it went to LC D and you couldn't make an apple an iPhone, unless you had an LCD.

Rene Ritchie (00:45:55):
There was no CRT iPhone. So that technology enabled new products and these technologies will enable new products. But at first they're gonna be extensions of existing products. So the one that's gonna ship first, like my best understanding is something like an apple TV for your head. It's it? Because the AR stuff is harder. So it's gonna be, it's gonna have its own processor in it to go all around your head. And it's gonna focus on immersive experiences like the apple TV does the fitness, the television, the gaming, the education. And then a couple years later is gonna be what Andy was talking about. The apple watch, original apple watch style device that ha has to fit into glasses. It's gonna be way more restricted. It's gonna lean on the phone a lot in the beginning. And it's all it's job is gonna be is to show you notifications. And glanceable information without you even having to turn your wrists. So it's just, it's a level of, in, of of convenience increase. And then over time, those technologies will get built into all sorts of products. The way that that LCDs did and eventually EDS did. And then apple just rolls out the next decade.

Alex Lindsay (00:46:50):
And I think if apple wasn't gonna put objects in front of us, they wouldn't be doing these little things around their events that are showing objects <laugh> that they're putting in there. I mean, it's, they, they tend to be pretty methodical about those things. And so I think that there's there. So I think that they're, they're definitely planning. And I do think that immersive is a lot easier than AR in a lot of ways. AR is easier to do on the phone. Immersive is easier to do as, as a headset because it, you can, you have a more room to put electronics and so and so forth. So I do agree with Renee that I think that we'll see something probably immersive as we go through it, but I do think it's going to be a, a pretty big game changer when it, when it happens. And of course, like everything else it'll start small, like the watch and like everything. But, but I think that the integration of all the, because apple has a different setup where they have, you know, motion and final cut are great video apps, but they're really, obviously there's 3d engines and all kinds of stuff being put into them. That's for the AR and VR, not for, you know, a straight video distribution. And so they have those tools.

Andy Ihnatko (00:47:49):
Yeah. I, I absolutely agree with you that the, that the, the fact that apple is putting so much investment in creation of 3d objects, it's obvious that that's where that's where they're going. But my, my stumbling block has always been when you're talking about mixed reality headsets or mixed reality goggles, I keep thinking of all the electric cars that they tried to build before lithium batteries came along. It fine. It'll it'll, you can have these lead is batteries in the trunk. It will power the car for a certain amount of time, but it's simply not gonna be the sort of thing it's, it's not gonna, it's not gonna be the technology that will enable this thing that we're kind of dreaming about and took these high density batteries to give us cars that are actually function like cars have the range of cars, have those styling of cars. And I think that we, we are running into the same sort of technological limitation with mixed reality goggles. Where how do we get a display technology that will give you a field of vision that most people will, that will deliver the effect that you want while also being compact enough and power power non hung enough to give you a wearable piece of kit that you would actually want to wear when you're not being given a virtual walkthrough of what your new kitchen remodel is, but maybe we're

Leo Laporte (00:48:59):
Maybe's professional, but that's focusing the glasses are a red hair. Maybe we're maybe, I mean, this idea of a windshield sounds very intriguing. I heads windshield. Not that, I mean, I think you wouldn't invest in a future where people are still driving their own cars,

Alex Lindsay (00:49:13):
Right? That's the thing. I think that if you're throwing the ball to where the receiver's going to be, as opposed to where it is right now, you're not gonna build. I mean, I think that we, there's a, there's a moment for the next three to five years where we're still building like a high tech it's forward future. The long term future is the cars aren't gonna happen any windshield. So what else would you

Leo Laporte (00:49:29):
Put heads up in instead of wearing these things?

Alex Lindsay (00:49:32):
Well, the thing is, is that, that we're already seeing a lot of these with, you know the stuff that, that, that we're already doing in building with USD Z is stuff that I can just send you a SD Z. And I talked about it earlier. If you go to something like, you can download a USD Z that we build that I, I have,

Leo Laporte (00:49:50):
This is GIM. I don't, I don't, doesn't every demo I've seen is like, you go to a restaurant and the menu shows you the three. It's just not to me, doesn't it doesn't speak to me as something I need. So, but the,

Alex Lindsay (00:50:02):
The thing is that I believe yet what, what what's happening right now, and what we're figuring out right now is how to use the LIDAR that we have. And we don't have this working yet, but, but using the Lightar, we have to attach it. So like, I have an object and I wanna see what that looks like. And that's what a lot of people are working on is I have an object that I wanna figure out does this fit here? And you know, and, and it's, and, and I can just pop it out and look at it. And does it fit here? What does it look like when I rotate it around? Those are, those are things that are pretty utilitarian. And I will say that we've worked with some folks that as soon as the sales folks opened it up on their iPad, they wanted every object that their company owns that makes in, in this format, because now they can sit there and talk to their clients with it.

Alex Lindsay (00:50:46):
And those are, those are not Wang things. This is just, it's a lot easier than carrying a case full of objects around. And, and they can show it and talk about it and highlight it and so on and so forth. And so I think that those are gonna be really interesting you know, pieces of that puzzle. And so I, you know, and, and again, you can make things, you know, I, you know, make little, very, very big <laugh> and walk around them and study them. And I think from an education and sales perspective that kind of stuff is just getting started. And a lot of it has been creating the geometry to go into that even now is pretty hard, you know, so the object capture is getting better, but that's what killed us when we were doing stuff for Google was not for Google, but for the Google you know, for the phones tango, the tango, the problem we had with tango was getting the geometry in.

Alex Lindsay (00:51:37):
We had to use unity at the time to do that. And so there was like a huge lift. What we're getting to now is you can kind of wave your, <laugh>, wave your phone at something and have a 3d model, you know, and that's a, that's a big, that's a big deal and it's not done yet, but as that matures and that anybody can grab onto anything and throw it into their, into their keynote document or their, or send it to somebody like this is what it's gonna look like. You know, I'm doing a I'm remodel. I think you live in a kind

Leo Laporte (00:52:03):
Of specialized world where that's valuable. I don't think that the normal people are saying, gosh, I wish I could put a 3d object in my keynote document. I, I, I think that this, the specialty thing I don't see, no, they wouldn't see

Rene Ritchie (00:52:14):
It though. That's like infrastructure, all they'll see is they'll have their headset at, are glasses on, they'll go to a virtual thing, they'll press it. And then they'll have like a model of the dress they want, or the lamp they want or something

Leo Laporte (00:52:23):
I'm, I'm getting a all pass around. I see Defor in my old age, but I

Alex Lindsay (00:52:26):
Don't buy it. What happens though, is that when it comes to sales, you know, like what happens for sales guys that are, that, you know, sales folks that are doing this is they get their, their clock cleaned by somebody who has the, a superior technology. And then they wanna know how to do that. And so

Leo Laporte (00:52:42):
It's great for sales. It doesn't still, again, that doesn't really sell me particularly that's, that's depressing business, a car, car salesman salesman is gonna, yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. These are not things that you're average, again, person who's using MIMO Leo nasal

Rene Ritchie (00:52:57):
Lamborghini. Yeah. Come on. MIMO,

Alex Lindsay (00:52:59):
Leo nasal lamb, but I, but it's, it's, it's, it's where things start and then they become normalized, you know? And so, so the thing is, is that I, I do think that you know, the tools are still a little rudimentary, but I mean, it's, it's a real problem when you go number one, when you go and decide what, what shelving you want in Akea knowing where it actually is, whether it'll fit where you think you're gonna put it, or how you're gonna do it as a thing, you know, and, and everyone's measuring all this stuff and you can get to a point where you just kind of go like this, and now I know. And then the second thing is really how to build it is what you need. This is how to do that. You know, like that's the, okay. I don't

Leo Laporte (00:53:33):
See it change in the world, but you know what? I I'm willing to be wrong. What's your timeframe? Five years, 10 years

Alex Lindsay (00:53:39):
For the, for what? For any of this? Well, the

Leo Laporte (00:53:42):
We've been talking about this. I mean, Ikea had an app on my phone five years for the glasses for a long time glasses for the glasses, five

Alex Lindsay (00:53:48):
Years out. I Don glasses. I think the immersive is probably less than 18 months. Yeah. So I think the immersive, I think that the AR is probably three to five. Yeah. You know, is probably, but, but the, but again, there's a, I think the keynote pages thing is probably this, this year is probably this year or next spring, you know, Microsoft tried

Leo Laporte (00:54:06):
This about three years ago and nobody wanted it and they dropped it. They had a 3d paint. They had AR Clippy. Do you imagine <laugh>

Alex Lindsay (00:54:14):
I, I just, HoloLens has been HoloLens has been pretty

Leo Laporte (00:54:17):
Successful for Microsoft. This excited about that is, but ho gonna change the world. Hololens has been. Yeah. But really successful again in a, in a narrow niche. Not, yeah. That's how you

Alex Lindsay (00:54:27):
Start market market. That's how you start.

Leo Laporte (00:54:29):
Okay. <laugh> all

Alex Lindsay (00:54:31):
Right. So they're, they're making a lot of money with that, with that headset, you know, like it's not, you know, they're and they're doing it's that stuff Minecraft's gonna drive Minecraft. I mean, it is stunning, like the stuff, when you, when you put on a holo lens at a work site and you can see where everything's supposed to be, you know, you, that there's some future that you're gonna get, this is gonna become normal. Like, and, and there's a lot of things. When people got cars, they were really expensive and quirky and didn't work like in, in the 1890, you know, like they were like, that's weird. Like, no one's gonna use that. <Laugh> like, you know, my horse goes a lot faster. And a lot of other places than that's

Leo Laporte (00:55:02):
Appropriate for apple to say, well, we're gonna predict what's gonna happen in 10 years. And we're gonna aim for that. Doesn't mean it's gonna happen. And I'm not, I don't wanna suggest this is gonna happen. To be honest, that Georgia Dow

Rene Ritchie (00:55:13):
Is normal by any stretch of the imagination. But when I asked her what she was doing on new year's Eve, they had four VR helmets on the entire family and they were hunting zombies. So make of

Alex Lindsay (00:55:20):
That, what you, I mean, my kids, I will say the progress say same thing. My kids, my kids really use quest all the time, but they're just kinda like, they, they, they play it for half an hour here and there. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (00:55:31):
No, that, that, that's why, whenever I, my skepticism is all about mixed reality. It's like, there are things that apple, I think could O could already have done something like an Oculus because, and it is a wonderful thing, even when I was just, when I was first playing with Google cardboard, the, the standard where you just drop a phone inside a hall inside a holder, and just the ability to watch movies and inside a virtual theater. The first time I watch I had, I had like 2, 2, 3, 3 to one, like super wide screen, like Vista vision movies, and being in a virtual theater where as the director intended, I can't see the entire thing on one like 60 inch screen. I have to keep turning my head to watch the, the, to, to see things going, going on there. That that was an amazing thing. And now that you've got the 3d immersive games, that's also an amazing thing. Apple could have the technology for that obviously existed for a while. Apple could have gotten in on it very, very early. I think that that's easily could be the very next thing they do. That's the question is what spin are they gonna put on it that will make it as enticing as a $350 headset that for gods sakes, a company owned by Facebook is making success out of. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:56:41):
Well, I think that, I think that resolution is a big piece of it, and that requires a lot of processing power. So six to eight K per I is gonna be a big deal if they, if they're able to actually do that. That's a good

Rene Ritchie (00:56:50):
Question, Alex, did you see the rumor today? Like Apple's gonna have three displays in it, two micro OED and one AMED. And I can't for like me figure out why you'd want three displays, especially that

Leo Laporte (00:57:01):
Mix of displays. Yeah. The, the micro OED will be, I guess, for the eyes. And then, I don't know, the Amy lid palette. Well, the Amy maybe is on the outside. Maybe it's not on the inside. Is it a touch par Leo don't make it a touch bar. No, yeah. We need a touch bar. This is, this comes from a that's where it went. This comes from a research report from Ross young. It's been purely accurate over the last while. Yeah. I'm not, yeah, I'm not, I don't, I don't get what that third one would be, but, you know,

Andy Ihnatko (00:57:29):
Yeah. See that that's one of many questions there's still on my mind at least that the, you, you can absolutely point out all of the technological invitations of of the latest Oculus. However, just as, just as, or was saying it's inexpensive enough that the whole family can have them and play them together. Will apple say that? No, no, no. We're giving you a $2,000 headset that is so much better than this in every way. Now, of course, instead of having four of them, you might know someone who will let you borrow it for 15 minutes while you throw at their house, but may oh man. During those 15 minutes that you're at their person's house and borrowing they're they're at their apple display. Oh my God, are you gonna be enjoying it? It's the first,

Rene Ritchie (00:58:08):
There's the one they're gonna use to pay it down with. And then the second one hopefully will be way

Alex Lindsay (00:58:12):
Cheaper. I mean, the, the, if they, all

Andy Ihnatko (00:58:14):
I have to do is call the developer edition. And that, that, that I, I'm not even getting here. All they have to do is say, this is the, this is this $2,000. It's $3,000. It's much, much better components we will ever put in a consumer version of the, but we realize that we're gonna need lead time for people to understand and develop the apps and the games they want. And that will get people that will get people saying, you know what? I'm not a developer, but I will buy one anyway. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:58:36):
It'll and they'll sell as many as they can make, like at, at, at 2000 or $3,000, they'll sell as many as they can make. Like, that's what, that's what I've been Google $1,500 each for Google glass or whatever. And they, and those are not what this is. It was you had, you had to apply. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:58:50):
I, yeah. That's because it was the very first, I don't think if Google released something like that again, today that anybody would buy it, but that's just, I,

Andy Ihnatko (00:58:58):
I think that subsidizing

Leo Laporte (00:58:59):
Headsets, like to the extreme, honestly, you know, it's always hard, you know, when the mask came out, people said, oh, that's remember Devor said, oh, you remember ever want that. So it's always hard to know when a technology down the road is gonna transform things. Yeah. and it's hard for apple, just as much as it's hard for us. I'll grant you this, this is something that's coming. I've been a very big proponent of AR I'm starting to doubt a little bit more now. VR, I think had a lot of promise and it's pretty clearly limited to people like George Dow. <Laugh>

Alex Lindsay (00:59:29):
Well, I mean, I think the thing is that when apple, a way

Leo Laporte (00:59:31):
Of saying Zo hunter,

Alex Lindsay (00:59:32):
When, when apple, when apple was gonna release a, an, a phone, people were like, well, that's not gonna work. I mean, no. And I, when they to watch, like, that's not gonna, it's

Leo Laporte (00:59:40):
Hard to know. So you missed very often.

Alex Lindsay (00:59:43):
Yeah. And they've never missed what they, they missed.

Leo Laporte (00:59:45):
Oh, wait a minute. Now, come on. Apple's released quite a few products. IPO high fi have failed. It's doesn't mean it doesn't mean an automatic hit cause apple

Alex Lindsay (00:59:54):
Thought it up. No, but, but I, but I think that most of those have been what I would consider side projects. You know, the, this is a, this is a pretty big this

Leo Laporte (01:00:03):
Is again, throwing money at it doesn't mean people want it. 

Alex Lindsay (01:00:05):
You got, you gotta convince it's people. It's not throwing that. They want it not throwing money at it. It's, it's, it's setting up the it's setting up the ecosystem around it because it's and again, I've had the opportunity to be in some version of VR AR for 20 years. So for me, a lot of this isn't is really so that's Alex and no, no, but I, but I, but I can say that there are things that we haven't been able to technologically do because of processing power, that when you put it on, when I've got a huge, huge

Leo Laporte (01:00:31):
Experiences, see graph in 1992, remember flying the Tet ale with a giant thing that had a giant electrical connection to a million dollar computer. And it was very cool. It has not somehow the technology's improved, but the, the usefulness has not

Alex Lindsay (01:00:50):
It's. But, but I think that one of the big things that stopped it though, is, has been mostly ING the technology so that you have enough Ram, you have enough CPU, power, you have enough, you know, optics, those have been huge issues in those areas where, when you see it at its native state, you know, at what it's capable of, you're like, oh, I would do this all the time. When you see the one that goes out as a consumer, you're like, <laugh>, I don't like it. Okay. You know? And so, so the, so the, there are different versions of these that when you see them, you're like, oh, if, if we can do that for the public, it would be, you know, people would use it the time. And I think that I, I think it'll be interesting to see how, how it goes, but I think that there's an again, an, I think Apple's building an enormous push for it in a way that, again, I've been working in this industry for 20 years, I've never seen anybo. Any company have so much energy and so much effort. So if they screw it up, if you're right and they don't look at this, right, wow, that's gonna be a big whiff, but I've never seen anybody put I've never seen any company put this much money and this much effort into a, into a rollout and this much time into a rollout publicly ever. Like, it's just,

Leo Laporte (01:01:58):
It is an I incredible history of innovation. It generally does not lie with the big incumbents. It lies with the little guys who come up with something that does, that can dis mediate too. Guys. This is too, maybe this is too much technology to do. That's too. Let's go to other rumors. Airpod pro two, according to say his name goming G right. Something like that. Yes. Okay. You have a better, you have a better chance accent than I do. Ming Chi quo, as he's known in the us. He his analyst note says the second generation AirPods pro will feed support for lossless audio in my mind, Bluetooth. And lossless audio, it's a meaningless, but, and a charging case that can emit a sound for location tracking purposes. When we do need that, this is in his investor note. You know, I think Bluetooth is so crappy that you'd have to come up with something better than Bluetooth. If you wanted to care about loss, which will make Neely,

Rene Ritchie (01:02:56):
Patel's head explode. Right? Like, and I don't know if that's a bug or a feature to apple at this point.

Alex Lindsay (01:03:00):
Right. I mean, I think that the question is whether Apple's gonna continue to, I mean, they'll probably continue to support Bluetooth if you want a Bluetooth headset, but I think this is probably gonna be a headphone that steps away from it'll super set

Leo Laporte (01:03:09):
It Bluetooth solution or, or, or something. Maybe that's, if you could improve AAC compression to the point where you could transmit it over Bluetooth,

Alex Lindsay (01:03:17):
Maybe I think they're gonna move. I think they're gonna move past B truth.

Leo Laporte (01:03:20):
I think they have to, I don't, I just, I think the compression is that's Bluetooth. Their VP said, right. Completely destroys you know, any lossless is meaningless when you have to then compress it, that becomes lossy. So I don't understand what the, what the, what the plan is. Yeah. What was that? That was the article. Let see if I can find what you just said, trying get

Rene Ritchie (01:03:37):
Everything to Canada, Bluetooth. And there's ways of getting more out of Bluetooth is ways to coax it, cheat it, but eventually that's all they can

Leo Laporte (01:03:43):
Get from apples. From what high Eventually

Alex Lindsay (01:03:46):
You need more bandwidth.

Leo Laporte (01:03:47):
I'm gonna stop. There is Bluetooth holding back apples, ear pods. We asked the man who made them Gary GIS. Yeah. He is the in <laugh> according to this article, fabulously enthusiastic VP of acoustics at apple. He's terrific. He's legit. Terrific. Yeah. He's so excited. Yeah. I, I love the enthusiasm. I think that's great. But yeah, he also says Bluetooth is, is part of the problem, you know? And maybe you don't need to do lossless in Bluetooth. I mean, maybe lossless, isn't the end game there anyway. Maybe you don't need

Alex Lindsay (01:04:20):
Bluetooth. I, I, I, I really think that what they're do is they're gonna have something other than Bluetooth. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:04:25):
You, you need, but you would need something to take the place of Bluetooth. You need something that is ubiquitous that produces a quality with

Leo Laporte (01:04:32):
Wifi, maybe wifi. Well, no, but you could superset it. Like it's

Andy Ihnatko (01:04:38):
I think you're right. I I'll I'm saying is that it's, I've the story of the, of the, if there's one thing that I've constantly been, been disappointed about in apple is that they consistently show how good they are at producing software, hardware, stacks, whatever, when they UN, when they control every single element of the process, when they have to create something that has to work with, what if, but what if someone wants a piece of hardware that isn't manufactured by apple, will it work successfully with that? Apple is like, well, why would you, when we have our own standard iPods, why would you, when you have our own messaging system and that's, I'm not that doesn't, I'm suggesting that makes them a failure as a company. I'm saying, I'm saying that that's a, that's a it's, it's like a pitcher who has great control. Great speed. But can't do a break and ball. Can't throw a curve ball.

Leo Laporte (01:05:24):
I, I know apple doesn't

Andy Ihnatko (01:05:27):
Like's, that's why I would not. That's why I would not want them to do, do something that make phones that do not work with any wireless

Leo Laporte (01:05:32):
Headphones, but I know apple doesn't like apex, but apex is us list it's out there. It's Qualcom, that's the reason apple doesn't like it <laugh>. 

Alex Lindsay (01:05:40):
But I think that

Rene Ritchie (01:05:42):
They haven't license that. But the thing, so just I'll just get this like quickly, but my guess is that it's gonna work very similar to Thunderbolt. And that is if you have the appropriate apple headphones, it will work at it's

Leo Laporte (01:05:53):

Rene Ritchie (01:05:54):
Yeah. But then if you don't it'll work at like SBC versus

Leo Laporte (01:05:57):
Here's the, here's the, here's the money quote from GEs. Obviously he says the wireless technology is critical for content delivery that you talk about. But also things like the amount of latency you get when you move your head. And if that's too long between moving your head and the sound changing or remaining static, it will make you feel quite ill. So we have to concentrate very hard on que squeezing the most we can out of the blue tooth technology, there's a number of tricks we can play to maximize or get around some of the limits of Bluetooth. But it's fair to say, we would like more bandwidths and I'll stop right there. We would like more bandwidths, you know, obviously. So I think that he can't say what's what he's doing, but obviously he's thinking about it. I think he could

Alex Lindsay (01:06:35):
Build AirPods that will work with lots of things, be you a Bluetooth. If you have them phones that will work with Bluetooth headsets, if you, if that's what you're using, but another pipeline that apple is now going, I think Apple's gonna put another is their own wireless technology. It's they're gonna be incompatible when the two of them are together. It's gonna be high bandwidth between them and a higher quality. And it's, it's gonna just, you know, so, so I don't think it's gonna turn, get rid of B, but I think that they're gonna go, well, that's the best we can do there. You'll get lo, but if you want, lossless, you're gonna, this headset connected with that phone is gonna give you a lossless experience.

Leo Laporte (01:07:07):
I may be wrong, but that seems like something doable since it's already been no, it's very doable. It'll be like the new

Rene Ritchie (01:07:11):
Version of apple talk or something, whatever they branded.

Leo Laporte (01:07:14):
Yeah. And if we're gonna do AirPod two AirPod pro two this year, maybe that's maybe we are, maybe that's the next thing we're gonna see and requires iPhone, right. Or maybe requires a newer iPhone. I don't know. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (01:07:27):
And, and they make that standard. They could make that standard a, a, something that other people could build headphones for. It doesn't mean that they have to, but, but the point is, is that there'll be a different standard other than Bluetooth. And that you'll have to see, meanwhile, I'm

Leo Laporte (01:07:38):
With Andy and I'm plugging in my wired headphones. Do they have vacuum tubes though? Leo? <laugh> I think about it. Cause I, I can tell you're real enthusiast. If you have vacuum, I think the move to Bluetooth headphones and the loss of the headphones, Jack, I still, I, I guess I'm sound like an old guy. Aren't I, I

Alex Lindsay (01:07:55):
Still, I have wired

Leo Laporte (01:07:57):
Headphones anymore. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (01:07:59):
I have wired headphones, my bag all the time. If I leave the house and I have wired headphones laying around and I still listen to 'em occasionally, but on a day to day basis,

Leo Laporte (01:08:07):
The same reason people use those white AirPods because they don't, well, I won't use those.

Alex Lindsay (01:08:12):
I will

Leo Laporte (01:08:12):
Say that they don't care that much about audio after

Alex Lindsay (01:08:15):
You have the pros, you, you go back, you, I put the old ones in I'm like, how did I ever do that was always that, how was this ever? Okay. Like, like it was, yeah. It's not, not the same.

Leo Laporte (01:08:24):
Yeah. yeah. I, well you know, never underestimate the appetite of the buying public for crappy solutions. Well,

Rene Ritchie (01:08:35):
No, but there's also like we have to move forward in some ways. And a lot of the standards bodies are really good for making sure things are consistent, but they're really bad for like just what, what USPC has done recently

Leo Laporte (01:08:44):
With. Yeah. I don't mind apple going its own way. I have no problem with that. That's fine. They can invent an apple high-fi wireless. Well, just push

Rene Ritchie (01:08:52):
Everybody forward. Like Bluetooth, like how long has it been? We've been stuck with people for a decade. The thing is punish

Leo Laporte (01:09:00):
This problem was solved many, many years ago with wired headphones. So yes. I don't care what apple does with wire wireless. If it's proprietary, cuz I, we already solved this with wired headphones and I'm not, I don't know. I don't. I guess you guys think that the, the convenience of not having a wire makes up for the lousy sound quality. Well essentially EC, static, all the other stuff. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:09:25):
I think that my thing is that, go ahead. I'll quickly. My, my thing is not, is not the sound quality is just the fact that a copper wire that electrons move moved propagate towards that always works. I know. Even it doesn't matter. What, what kind of wireless headphones I've ever used, even, even apple ones. There are times where, okay. So I guess I don't get to hear outta my left earbud because I've got the, I've got my phone in the wrong pocket for that. So I've gotta my phone pocket for that, but watches. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:09:56):
Yeah. I admit, I bring out my air,

Andy Ihnatko (01:09:58):
My phone, my phone doesn't my phone doesn't wear with the watches either. So right there you go. I

Leo Laporte (01:10:02):
Admit what I wanna do a zoom call or a conference call. I bring out my air pro Promax is I have to justify the ridiculous 550 bucks and you can walk around man. You can pace. But, and I look stupid cuz I, I don't know why I was, I think I was self, self loathing. I bought pink one <laugh> but, but I have to admit that's the best experience for a zoom call, but I'm not looking for audio fidelity on a zoom call.

Alex Lindsay (01:10:25):
So yeah, I mean, I, I think that I, I, I guess I, I don't listen to, I don't listen enough music constantly on my, on my phone. I mean 90%. I mean, I do listen to a lot of music on it, but I, I mostly am on calls, you know? So for me, the wireless and the convenience apple

Leo Laporte (01:10:40):
Has created the music as wallpaper generation and they don't care about music or fidelity and that's the norm at this point. And so well it's ironic that Apple's pushing lossless and spatial to that audience.

Alex Lindsay (01:10:54):
I think the spatial is way more important than lossless like to me. Like I, yeah, I agree. I can hear the spatial a lot more than I can hear lossless yeah. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:11:01):
I'm too old. And even that's controversial, there's there's so many people, so many audio files that will say, oh, but this was not the intention of the post on the mixing board. It's like, great, great. You've just added. You've just basically added more fat and salt to this to make that sound a little bit different, but has nothing to do with the separational instruments.

Leo Laporte (01:11:17):
It's like, well, it'll always, I see those words love him, but people, people like people like what they like and that's fine. Yeah. They like fat and salt. We know that. All right, let's take a little break flavor. Let's take a little break and then we're gonna observe a moment of silence for the end of the line for product. But, but let's talk first about, oh, oh, it's a sad moment coming out. Let's talk. Happy stuff. People are going back to work and zip recruiters there to help you find exactly the right person for your job openings. This is gonna be a big year for a lot of businesses. Some industries projected to grow even more this year. Sustainability, you bet new eco-friendly products and services. Some of our advertisers are cropping up. Pet services are big this year, more training walking and feeding services for all those pets we all adopted during COVID right.

Leo Laporte (01:12:09):
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Leo Laporte (01:13:06):
It already has to find the right candidates and send them to you so you can invite them to apply. And by the way, when candidates get an invite to apply the, they are much more likely to actually apply. You can invite your top choices to apply to your job. They will respond. And often in most cases you will get a perfect individual in less than a day. Those great resumes start pouring in and they don't pour into your inbox or your phone. No, they go to the zip recruiter interface, whereas easy to, to rank them, check the boxes, find the right person and hire 'em fast. No wonder zip recruiters, the number one rated hiring site in the us. According to G2 ratings, you can try it for free zip Z I P R E C R U I T E a C B R E a. Hey, I spell that out. Ziprecruiter.Com/Mac break. We thank of so much for helping us hire. We use them ourselves and for supporting Mac break weekly. Thank you for supporting Mac break weekly as always by using this URLs that we give out. So they know you saw it here. Ziprecruiter.Com/Mac break. I'd like to ask for a moment of silence today. It's the end of the line for Blackberry.

Rene Ritchie (01:14:25):
Canada loves you back.

Leo Laporte (01:14:28):
<Laugh> key service is including network provisioning. If you're using a Blackberry with Blackberry zone OS we'll shut down today. The phones will just no longer work. Blackberry says its devices will no longer be expected. They say this in a nice Canadian way will no longer be sorry, sorry. No, no longer. Be expected to reliably function, including for data, phone calls, SMS and nine one, one, you know, little things, the little things, things you probably don't care. I love those blackberries. I tell you, and it wasn't just the Blackberry phones is Blackberry playbook, their tablet, which never took off all of them. And if it's running Blackberry OS today's the day. So a moment of silence, my boss

Rene Ritchie (01:15:13):
For 10 years was CrackBerry Kevin

Leo Laporte (01:15:15):
That's right? You worked or did you ever, did you write for CrackBerry or you just, I

Rene Ritchie (01:15:19):
Did. I did on the, I I wrote pieces to refute their eventual dominance of the smartphone. Oh, you were right. <Laugh> I'm not gonna be SMU about it today because it was, we lost Nortel. We lost PDF at, we just keep losing these Canadian companies, Leo. Well, you

Leo Laporte (01:15:32):
Truth is you haven't lost Blackberry. They pivoted in, I think a very successful way they've they bought QNX a real time operating system and they're doing very well in automotive. So Blackberry, the company survives, but not your phone. It was the last phone I owned before the iPhone in 2007,

Rene Ritchie (01:15:47):
It was a little bit of good news today in that Kevin Mitchell reacquired from future in his re you launching it for a post Blackberry world. So I'm excited to see what happens with that.

Leo Laporte (01:15:56):
I wonder what what's he gonna cover?

Rene Ritchie (01:15:59):
I maybe we're gonna put the crack in everything, you know, like crack apples, crack ruins. Maybe it'll just be everywhere

Leo Laporte (01:16:05):
Or maybe just apple cider donuts. Maybe it's just like an apple cider donuts. Yes. Yeah. Could be, yeah, that'd

Rene Ritchie (01:16:10):
Be great. Could be Blackberry cider.

Leo Laporte (01:16:14):
The FAQ Blackberry 10 and Blackberry OS services. FAQ. Yeah. 

Andy Ihnatko (01:16:24):
Credit credit were credit stew credit with a stew. They, they did absolutely create a revolution. Oh yeah. There was a, there was a time when the phones were really just, they played very simple games. You did, you did texting. It was very, very exciting. When you had a method of texting that involved having to just tap, tap two digits, instead of going through three at a time, they created a messaging platform that suddenly made everybody want to have a high performance smartphone and made the networks want to be able to support high performance business. I

Leo Laporte (01:16:51):
Go back even farther. I remember at the original Xbox launch, which would've been about 2001, cuz it's 20 years old sitting with one of the first, it was a pager, but it had the Blackberry keyboard on a pager and messaging like crazy. And I thought, this is exciting. This is gonna transform how people communicate. I remember roughly the same timeframe, maybe a couple of years later interviewing the then chairman of the FCC Michael Powell. And he was like on his Blackberry and I said, what are you doing? He says, well, I triage my email before I don't respond to it, but I can delete you didn't and delegate it from here before I get back to the office it was a revolution. And I remember, I, it really was a CrackBerry for me when I first got up Blackberry was did

Rene Ritchie (01:17:40):
You do the pin messaging? Yeah. Yeah. Ceos would trade their pin. The thing that like one of the signs to me that this was inevitable was at some point they came out with a statement saying that they were gonna have to add a layer of Microsoft active sync to their infrastructure because they never imagined a world where someone would have more than one device. So that black, all BBM infrastructure was locked to one, the idea of one person, one pin. And even then you have to log in

Leo Laporte (01:18:04):
A solutions signal and the WhatsApp all use of phone WhatsApp. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean that, that, that lives with us somebody in the chat room remembers that I have mentioned this years ago that when my kids were little, they said, we would say, dad, get off your Blackberry. I would be, this is

Rene Ritchie (01:18:21):
Before. Do you have a favorite Blackberry, Leo?

Leo Laporte (01:18:24):
I really love that first one, but my Pearl, the Blackberry Pearl is the last one I had and that one's still in my, I, the bold,

Rene Ritchie (01:18:30):
The bold was like a Cadillac of blackberries with like a leather back.

Leo Laporte (01:18:33):
It was just, it was wow. I never got that fancy one. Oh yeah. You worked at CrackBerry. So I think it was a

Alex Lindsay (01:18:38):
Real, it was a real Lim showing the limitation of like when you're already in something, not being able to think of something new because I got, you know, of course they sent me one of the ones to test that's the, was their own touch screen version. Like we're moving. I think it's the storm storm. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:18:49):
The storm was on awful. Oh my God.

Rene Ritchie (01:18:51):
And it was just it one Blackberry devices the year.

Leo Laporte (01:18:55):
Oh my, my very device Blackberry. No, my wife Lisa had a storm when we first yeah. When she first started working for us. So that would've been right. 2008 or nine. Right. I, I phone had already come out and I said, what are you doing with that? Cuz that in order to taped the screen, it actually had a click. It was like a mouse,

Rene Ritchie (01:19:13):
Whole screen was a whole button. Yeah. Click like click, click, click.

Alex Lindsay (01:19:16):
It was awful. I, I used it for a trip. I, I mean, I, I actually was asked to, you know, use it and test it and everything else. And I use it for a trip and I was like, I can't do this again. It was, it

Leo Laporte (01:19:25):
Was Verizon it Blackberry too, because was Verizon left it on top of a cab, drove off, it broke. I said time for an iPhone and you're welcome. Yeah. You're welcome. You're subconscious with sending you a message. Listen to it very clearly, but I'll tell you, you couldn't break that thing. It took her many, many tries <laugh>

Rene Ritchie (01:19:45):
It was, it was amazingly flames as that. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:19:50):
Alright, let's see here. What else? Rumor, one, one more rumor. Apple might launch according to the economist in audiobook service to join the apple one bundle.

Alex Lindsay (01:20:05):
They've gotten pretty. I mean, they're doing a lot of audio work right now. I mean, I don't know what they're gonna do with the service, but I can tell you there's a lot of articles that are for the apple news that are in audio form. You can just play set up a playlist. It's like a radio show. And I think that's a really

Leo Laporte (01:20:22):
High quality. There have been a number of programs, apps out that did that. But I think that's really smart. I think there a lot of people who want to and their commute listen to news and read an article.

Alex Lindsay (01:20:32):
I have to say that I, now that I'm used to listening to it, I, I, I, I think that's part of why I stopped really reading as many magazines is because I have the economist and foreign fairs are both, you know, with foreign affairs, you have to wait, <laugh> economists, you get every weekend. It's all, it's all of it's done in audience. Is it

Leo Laporte (01:20:47):
Human readers? It's not, it's not machine it's human readers. I use an app called a U D M autumn that, that works with the Atlantic, the new Yorker wired vanity fair, you know, all of the yeah. Elite, the New York review books, the new is it all human public. It's all very good human readers.

Alex Lindsay (01:21:04):
Yeah. I mean, so the economist is, is, is really good. Foreign affairs is a lot of them are actually done by apple. They're like in partnership, you know, interesting voiceover provided in partnership by apple and then yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:21:12):
Apple hired a bunch of people that we know to do that.

Alex Lindsay (01:21:15):
Interesting. The interesting thing is, is that that when I hack through, if you use, you know, the, the the Alexa app or whatever on, you can ask your iPhone to play a Kindle book, right? That's the way to get around the Kindle book. Doesn't have audio, so it'll play it in the, in the iPhone, but you have to kind of work through this weird work around. I will admit that I can listen to, if it's pure information, I can actually listen to the computer version faster than a human. And like, I can, it's easier. It's, it's actually, the diction means that I can play it back faster and I can, you know, so, so it's an interesting, I, I, I, I didn't think that I'd ever say that I'd rather have a computer read a book to me, but the, the Kindle version I can actually, if I'm just trying to, it's more information

Leo Laporte (01:22:06):
And that's gonna get better. I mean, voice Synthes, but I

Alex Lindsay (01:22:09):
Wanna absorb information cause you gotta remember I'm listening at two X, right? I'm at least does

Leo Laporte (01:22:13):
That too. I don't understand that. I can't, I can't absorb anything. I,

Alex Lindsay (01:22:16):
I, I, with a human it's between 1.25 and, and two, depending on how they talk, but the computer with a computer it's like just two X and just plow

Leo Laporte (01:22:23):
Through it. So I'm wondering what apple has in its mind, because remember they did do, of course they sell books, I book and they sell 'em from the publisher. They have been using audible for the audio books in the iBook store. Audible has deals with, I think almost all, if not all the publishers, there are others,

Alex Lindsay (01:22:43):
It's a disaster by the way, to use, to buy audible books through

Leo Laporte (01:22:46):
Itunes. I, I just use audible. Yeah, I did that. Yeah. Yeah. It was a production audible. I think the, the only ones I ever bought with the Harry Potter books, and then I realized I'd get 'em, you know, that audible instead, this

Alex Lindsay (01:22:56):
Is way better to get 'em through audible in that area. I think that Apple's only way to really break in. I don't know if they're going to or not is to really change the way we think about books, you know? And I think that they had the opportunity to do that. And I don't know if they're gonna, you know, when come, what you do add video and AR and hyper, you know, like, like make it a, a media platform as opposed to just words and pictures. You know, but see, I think people

Leo Laporte (01:23:17):
Listen to books cuz they can't look they're driving or they're

Alex Lindsay (01:23:20):
Watching well, but I think they listen to books because there's no pictures like, like I'm sorry. Like I don't like, I don't like I, I'm not gonna, I don't buy books that, that are just words. Like if I open a book and it's all words, I'm like, I'm gonna listen to that. Like if I'm gonna, if I, you know, and so for me to look at a book for me to have a book that I'm gonna look at, I better have a lot of pictures, you know? And, and, and, and when I open up, like, I, I have this, this crazy book called the modernist CUI. I think it's a modernist cookbook or modernist cuy that? 

Leo Laporte (01:23:46):
Well, an audio cookbook is nonsense, but

Alex Lindsay (01:23:48):
An no, no, but no, but what I'm saying is, but what I say when I open it up and I have, they have these gorgeous, this is the former CTO of Microsoft or whatever to put this together.

Leo Laporte (01:23:55):
Oh God, he's crazy.

Alex Lindsay (01:23:56):
Yeah. So it's incredible photos. And I'm like, oh my gosh, if this was video, <laugh> like, that's what I think if he had went through all this work to light it and the set it all up and he just, and I could have a, something on my iPad that was video of this thing, I would be, you know, over the moon. But the, and, and the problem is is you, you keep on, they keep on handing the content to ma to magazine publishers and they keep on making things that are kind of like a magazine with, with video. I don't want that. I want something new that is, that's going to let me explore an idea that includes possibly AR and video and hyperlinks. And did you explanations

Leo Laporte (01:24:33):
You these stainless steel slip case version of modernist cuisine? Of

Alex Lindsay (01:24:36):
Course. <Laugh> yeah. Nathan, me quite a guy. Yeah. And they, and the one that just came out is on pizza. I haven't bought the pizza interest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got yeah, so it's, it's they're incredible.

Leo Laporte (01:24:51):
It's a computer scientist's approach to cooking. I think it's 

Alex Lindsay (01:24:55):
Interesting. <Laugh> well, it's not just a computer scientist. It's it's it's 30 chefs. Yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:25:00):
It cookbook of the year in 2012. So it's, it's obviously done better than I give credit

Alex Lindsay (01:25:06):
Again. I, I, but some of it is, it's really written for chefs though. So the problem is you open it and you go, I don't know what that means. Yeah. And it would be great if I had a video that showed me what, when you say that, what, what do you mean by that? You know? And so, so that's the thing that, you know like that's what Heston again, does really, really well is they show you what they mean for every, every recipe is there's a video. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:25:25):
Actually me took the pictures in this. So,

Alex Lindsay (01:25:28):
Yeah. They're great picture. I mean, it's, it's an unbelievable collection.

Leo Laporte (01:25:31):
Well, someday maybe I can own the $500 stainless steel version of, of modernist cooking, modernist cuisine.

Alex Lindsay (01:25:42):

Leo Laporte (01:25:43):
Really nice. Yeah. Now and now they've got bread, as you said, bread

Alex Lindsay (01:25:46):
Bread. A friend of mine got me pizza bread. Cause I was like, I can't afford it, the bread one, but I, I was giving, it was giving to me and and then, and then they had one on pizza. You have

Leo Laporte (01:25:54):
A, you have a good friend. Let me tell you

Alex Lindsay (01:25:57):
I was a good friend. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:25:59):
Let's see what so I don't know. It'd be interest to see what apple does. I don't think creating another audible makes much sense. There are other audibles there's, there's But they all basically the same books cuz the publishers from the most part, the publishers record them. And then, you know, just like a bookstore they're sold through other outlets. Yeah. Audible has its own in studios and they do record a lot of stuff that's there are audible exclusives, but I guess that's what a could do.

Alex Lindsay (01:26:30):
And in addition to, if you add it to apple, one, it becomes interesting where you're subscribing. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:26:35):
I would do it. Yeah. Yeah. That's doing that. Amazon and audible both are doing subscriptions where you get a certain, you know, thousand of titles for,

Andy Ihnatko (01:26:44):
I was about to say, Amazon will sell you a package where you will get access to a big collection of Amazon Kindle books, a good, a selection of audible books, a selection of Comicology comics. That's it makes sense for apple to make a play for this. I just don't know where they're gonna get the content from.

Leo Laporte (01:26:59):
Well, that's the thing I, is there stuff that's not being, I guess there is not being recorded, but usually it's pretty obscure things that I don't know if I know the public demand, what you want is the best sellers. That's what you're gonna sell. And that's, those are being already being recorded by random house and penguin. And, but again, if, if,

Alex Lindsay (01:27:16):
If it's, if it's another couple dollars on top of your apple, apple one yeah. To, to have that, then it becomes a, you know, again, it's, it's it's adding to the, the overall experience right now. There's a handful of things that I'm doing outside of the apple ecosystem, which is like the Kindle and, and the for, for books with pictures, that's the only reason I get Kindle books or the or the, or the audible, which is where I put all the other books. And so that's something that as an apple user, for me to be outside the ecosystem, Apple's gotta look at that and go, well, it'd be really nice to give them something that they wanted to. So, and then of course, it's just trying to get

Leo Laporte (01:27:53):
USDC file for you. Article was USDC Washington article in the Washington post about Apple's disappointment with exposure notification, they apple and Google remember, remember back in the early days of the pandemic, 22 years, how long has it been Leo <laugh> that, that both companies released for their Android and iOS operating systems notification system it's on both together. I've never, ever gotten a notification. Been very careful. Well, no, I mean, but I've been in public and occasionally and you know, on Thursday we, I mean, we stay outside, but we went down to San Francisco, went to the Exploratorium and went to actually PI 39 was kind of scary, even though it was outdoors was very, very crowded. I would think among all those thousands of people that I ran across, I would've gotten one notification, nothing, not a more than 20 states don't even use it, including Florida and Texas, of course, because there is no COVID Florida, no states according to the Washington post, even in states where millions have activated notifications, only a fraction of people who test positive for the virus, report it to the system.

Leo Laporte (01:29:11):
California system, for example, has been activated on more than 15 million devices. That's a good proportion of the population, but only 3% of the nearly 3.9 million in cases reported since launch were logged onto the system. So how useful is it almost

Rene Ritchie (01:29:25):
Like you needed a federal response to a federal pandemic? Oh really?

Leo Laporte (01:29:28):
Yeah. That's a thought. Yeah.

Rene Ritchie (01:29:30):
Yeah. Like they could like, just like the military deliver the mail and like fight pandemics says on like many

Leo Laporte (01:29:36):
Things on your list. Yeah. so anyway what do we think? I mean, it was, I think it was, it was great that Silicon valley responded to the crisis. They responded in a very Silicon valley way. You know, we could figure this out. We know how to do you see the engineer was

Rene Ritchie (01:29:53):
Tweeting or the former head of

Leo Laporte (01:29:54):
Apple's, what did he say? Medical crisis team. He had a

Rene Ritchie (01:29:57):
Whole tweet ought to find that he had a whole tweet threat up on what happened with it and his disappointment over the, over the eventual

Leo Laporte (01:30:03):
Reception. You know, my take on it was, it, it was a good idea, but it was done in a vacuum. It was done without considering health health, the needs of health officials, states, and most importantly of individuals. And so it just didn't play. I mean,

Alex Lindsay (01:30:16):
I think you can look at the NFL and you can see why people don't don't do those. It's like someone was around somebody who had COVID and now to go to work, you know, that's, that's why, I mean, so that's like,

Leo Laporte (01:30:25):
That's wants to know is what you're saying.

Alex Lindsay (01:30:28):
Well, no one wants to, no one

Leo Laporte (01:30:30):
If know, test for it, then no one would know. And then never we wouldn have any COVID.

Alex Lindsay (01:30:34):
No, no, but I'm just saying that that's I think that that is a, a contributing factor is people see like, oh, well, if, if I have a, if I'm in a contact system and now it says that, you know, maybe I don't have it, but I don't want to, I don't want to have to not go to work. No, I

Leo Laporte (01:30:47):
Understand people lie about getting

Alex Lindsay (01:30:49):
Sick. Yeah. No, but I'm saying even if they don't, even, if, even if it's true and they were near you and, but if you don't have it, but the problem we

Leo Laporte (01:30:57):
Have, so we just don't know. Right. The guy's name is Ang cha. Here is his Twitter thread at C a underscore, M Y O U N G. I haven't read it yet. So I'll just go through it. He said it was one of the most exciting projects I've ever worked on with an unbelievable amount of technical talent, including the guy in the post-it note costume. <Laugh> I don't know. I don't know what that's, what's going on there. I want that story. <Laugh> it was always a challenge to convince someone that it was as good as context tracing, which I think you didn't convince me. I don't think it is. Which is like asking whether an email is as good as a nice holiday card. Of course they're not the same. He says, but I can send a nice e-card instantly to a hundred people and get mostly the same result. The biggest pushback we got was why wouldn't, why wouldn't we allow governments around the world to use the API, to collect a ton of data about users <laugh> well, I think of course, yeah, no, we're not gonna do that. User privacy is important, but that does in fact, often limit the abilities of contact tracing. So

Alex Lindsay (01:32:07):
Cause I know like as, as someone who gets, I mean, I I've been tested about on average once a week for the last, I don't know, three or four months because of production. Every time you're in a production, you have to test 30, 72 hours a day and when you get there and everything else, and the thing thing is, is that like, for instance, if I'm going to LA, I will not leave my house until I have the test back. So I'll be late if I have to, if I don't get outta my PCR back because it's delayed or something like that, I won't leave the house. Because if it turns out that I'm positive, it means that I'll invalidate the entire production. Right. You know, like if I show up, if I show up and find out later, they, they don't require you

Leo Laporte (01:32:41):
To have a vaccine. I'm surprised. No, they just say testing is all they need. I'm actually surprised time. Although having a vaccine, as we now know with Omicron, doesn't prevent you from getting it and spreading it. It just means you won't get sick. Go to the hospital then negative consequences. Yeah. Right. Anyway, he does go on on and on. It's probably worth a read at cha underscore M young. All right, let's see. What else is going on in the world? The apple is working on a formula, one racing film with top gun Mavericks, Joseph Kazinski, Jerry Bruckheimer, Aaron Kruger, starring Brad pit. Thought you were gonna say an F1 race car for a second. I thought we were gonna have to, oh, no, no, no, no, no. <Laugh>, you know, Brad pit, a, a racer comes out of retirement to mentor a younger driver and take his final stab at glory on the track. As the younger driver is teammate. This is obviously fiction.

Alex Lindsay (01:33:44):
I would normally think that this is, this was, this is not a, not a good, like, I would be like, okay, whatever. But Ford versus Ferrari was surprising. That

Leo Laporte (01:33:51):
Was a great movie. Yeah. Like it really great movie.

Alex Lindsay (01:33:52):
And I was like, did not expect that at all. I only, I literally only watched it because so many people told me it was so good. And then when I watched it was, you know, it's really, yeah, it was really good. I'm not a car

Leo Laporte (01:34:01):
Person. It's not Brad. Yeah. It's not Brad. I actually love formula one and still don't think they make great movies. There've been a lot of racing movies. Only a handful have been really worth good. He's go around the 

Alex Lindsay (01:34:14):
Pit. I like the iron man version, cuz there was like

Leo Laporte (01:34:17):
He's flying missiles. <Laugh> pit cuz inky once tried to make a racing movie together called go like hell where he would've played Carol Shelby. They wanted to be the right stuff of the racetrack. Not a bad idea. Matt Damon played Shelby of course in Ford versus Ferrari. Yeah. Anyway look for that on your apple TV plus or any boy, a foundation I think kind of flopped invasion. Didn't finish it invasion. Didn't start it. <Laugh> yeah. Ted lasso, Ted lasso, Ted lasso. That's about it. I got in this really weird place where like during the whole last three years, I

Rene Ritchie (01:34:57):
Have not been able to just physically take the anxiety of stressful TV shows. So I've only watched stuff that I know was emotionally inert or I've seen a hundred times before and wouldn't affect me. <Laugh> anyway, it's I just, I had nothing left. So like a lot of these shows are great. Like on Netflix, on Disney, on apple, they look fantastic. People say they're amazing. I, I just can't bear to

Leo Laporte (01:35:14):
Watch. It can be great.

Andy Ihnatko (01:35:16):
It can be. Can I tell you that? Can I tell you that many I'm laughing because you're talking about Ted lasso. I still have. I still have yet to see the rest of like season two, because I got like, without revealing, without spoiling anything of any kind it's like, oh, it looks like Ted is about to become very, very sad and about something. Yeah. I'm not ready. I'm not ready to see Ted lasso to be sad. I think I'll switch to, I'll switch to some three Stooges. I'll switch to some thin man movies. I'll get back to it. Definitely. But I got my own problem right at this moment. You're you're here to make me feel happy. Not feel, oh, if Ted, if even Ted lasso can like be feeling like everyone's against him. Oh no,

Rene Ritchie (01:35:55):
No. And they just keep walking.

Leo Laporte (01:35:57):
Yeah. It's hard. I, you know, production is what it's about a year before you get something to, to, to ready to go. And I, I just wonder, you know where people were a year ago,

Alex Lindsay (01:36:08):
It took, it took, it took that. It took everybody along. I mean, Amazon was not particularly good. It's still, I mean, I, I don't think anyone's gonna really pick up on Amazon until the Lord of the ring stuff comes. And then, I mean, there's a couple things that people seem to like, but that's

Leo Laporte (01:36:21):
Taking forever though. You know, I've been very, I'm a wheel of time fan and I was extremely disappointed by the wheel of time that just didn't didn't watch it, do it.

Rene Ritchie (01:36:28):
And I even watched Bobba fat and there was no REMS in it. So I turned it off immediately. Like what kind of star wars are

Leo Laporte (01:36:32):
Without REMS leg? There is no, I think we know that, right? Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (01:36:38):
It's like tattoo to should. Yeah, exactly. I did. I did think it would be fun if REMS rums SL was in the,

Leo Laporte (01:36:45):
The, and if those who don't know why we're mentioning rums SL well, you're just gonna have to go back in time and listen to some old

Andy Ihnatko (01:36:51):
Mac. I keep, you know, I know I, I, I know Alex, you have a policy about not accepting unsolicited ideas, but I've got a spec script for rums leg. That's nothing like the slash F for Babylon five that it started off as I really think we've got some baby think

Rene Ritchie (01:37:05):
It's gonna be a place.

Andy Ihnatko (01:37:08):
Yes. Is a part for me, but that's completely incidental. I, we're not perfect for the rule. I've not even myself and

Rene Ritchie (01:37:14):
A baby ban are on an adventure.

Andy Ihnatko (01:37:16):
That's verys what's best for the project. It's what's best for the project. Yeah, exactly.

Leo Laporte (01:37:22):
If you guys don't have anything else you want to talk about, I think maybe the time has come to take our final break and get you ready for your picks of the week. Agreed. I'm good, indeed. Okay. You know, Hey, we're doing all right. It's the beginning of the year there isn't a lot to talk about. Apple's quarter did end on Christmas day. So when are when of those quarterly results come out now it'll be end of this month probably end of the month. Yeah. So we will have something to talk about in a couple weeks. <Laugh> eventually, eventually, I'm sorry.

Andy Ihnatko (01:37:52):
<Laugh> how much more wealthy apple people are than

Leo Laporte (01:37:55):
We are. You know, I look forward, let's talk all about that. Oh God. I look forward to every week to Thursday now, because Thursday was when our imperfect foods box comes and I am loving imperfect foods. I've done a variety of farm boxes. And as you know, different food delivery, this is the best one I've ever done. And I love the idea. That's why we signed up at first for imperfect foods because imperfect foods is designed to reduce food waste. Here's a cringeworthy stat to start the new year. Every year, 35% of the food supply goes unsold or uneaten in the us. It's not perfect. It's not just right. Imperfect foods is working to turn this around by sourcing foods that would otherwise fall through the cracks of our food system. And, and I have to point out at first, I thought, well, I'm gonna get, you know, radishes that look like Richard Nixon.

Leo Laporte (01:38:50):
I'm gonna have weird oranges. No, everything I get is great. It's amazing what the groceries won't accept. For instance, pomegranates are just a little bit smaller than your head so that the groceries say, no, no, we want the giant ones, but these taste better. I've had some of the best produce I've ever had. Combating climate change. I know is something we all wanna do, but it feels overwhelming. What if you could just use some more of that food that's already been produced and reduced food waste, imperfect foods. It's a grocery delivery service. By the way, it goes well beyond their original roots. Now you can get ju not just groceries, but all sorts of things. Check imperfect Before I go on, I should say, it's not available in every area. So check imperfect and see if they deliver in your area.

Leo Laporte (01:39:42):
I was very happy to see that they did. You personalize your weekly grocery order. We do that every week. It was easy during the holidays to put it on hold cuz we didn't need it. Cuz we were making a lot of, you know, a lot of Christmas stuff to do and cookies and things, but we've restarted again Thursday, I guess our first box for the new year, fresh seasonal produce pantry staples, yummy snacks. They have a heritage chicken that we get every week because it's the best chicken I've ever had. I roast it up. It's amazing. We look forward to it on average, just give you some stats. Imperfect foods, customers save six to eight pounds of food with every order, six to eight pounds of food that be fed to animals thrown away discarded, unlike on demand delivery companies in perfect deliveries, weekly by neighborhood that produces 25 to 75%, fewer emissions than individual trips to the grocery store.

Leo Laporte (01:40:32):
Oh I love by the way, highly recommend their salami and their, they have a charcuterie pack at is fantastic. I had to tell Lisa, stop getting that plus <laugh> cuz I would eat it every time. Plus goodbye to packaging guilt. I love it. That I don't get a hundred plastic bags. It's the only national grocery delivery company that makes it easy to return your packaging. After every order. They're nice. Cardboard boxes, a cardboard inset. There's not a lot of packaging that always made me feel guilty. Not with imperfect foods. I am such a huge fan. I just really want you to try this. In fact, we've got a great deal for you right now. I perfect foods is offering you 20% off your first four orders. When you go to imperfect, but you gotta use the promo code Mac break. So that way we get credit, but you get 20% off your first four orders. That's up to an $80 value, imperfect just have to use the promo code Mac break. Just love it. We just love this. We are very happy. Join the most movement. It makes you feel good. And it's a wonderful produce it's wonderful stuff. Imperfect, promo code Mac break. It's exactly what I was looking for. Imperfect promo code Mac break. This will be good for your new year's resolution. Some nice, fresh, delicious produce. That's that's good for the world. Pick of the week time, Andy and ACO, the writing of the

Andy Ihnatko (01:42:01):
Gods. <Laugh> the writing of the gods. My favorite book I bought, I, I bought this on audible, but obviously it's anywhere you can experience this. My one of my favorite science books of all time only, oh, I'm buying it right

Leo Laporte (01:42:12):
Now. I've got a crisp, I got how to

Andy Ihnatko (01:42:14):
Use it. There you go. This is all about how the Rosetta stone was decoded and how different higher grips were first, like were, were first deciphered. And it was, it's told like a gorgeous novel with freak characters that were just had this the same kind of like warped lateral thinking minds that could possibly handled this job. Like you, if you know about the Rosetta zone stone, obviously you think, oh, well geez, finally, this, this lost language of hi Griffiths was cracked because they found in 1799, they found a stone that had Greek and Coptic and this mysterious hieroglyphics. And finally, because they knew what the Greek was. They knew what the Coptic was. They were able to know it wasn't that at all. If anything, it made things, even it, it gave them what they needed to unlock finally, how to decipher this language. But it led them down so many false ends because imagine having like say, oh wait, I, I know what it, if, if I know what this is an Italian, that must mean so easy for me to translate to Spanish.

Andy Ihnatko (01:43:12):
But no, there's so many words that are very, very similar. And us, you have no idea what was going through this culture's heads when they were putting this language together. And so like starting with, okay, do you start from left to right or right to left? Do you go from top to bottom? This mark right here? Is it, is it an intentional mark? Was it something that was like damage that was done while this thing was on earth? Is this a missing piece of text or was that a, a gap that was actually made in when they realized things like <laugh> after like struggling with some section for like ages, they realized that, you know what, this mark means, this mark, no, no joke. This mark means that the person who was engraving that said disregard this mark because I just put it in here because I thought they would look pretier if I did it this way.

Andy Ihnatko (01:43:59):
Oh, wow. Funny. And so, so it's all, so it's basically, it's about the, this this small French group and this small English group who are kind of almost like in a Russia versus United States space race for the national pre prestige of being the first to actually break this, break this language. And it, again, it's told in this, it's told in this beautifully elaborate novelistic sort of way that, that lays down the ground worked for well, here's what people, here's, how people were trying to guess what hieroglyphics were for the centuries before that, in the cuz the, in the third of fourth century, there was an active the, there was an active movement to destroy anything Egyptian. So the culture was gone, the writing was gone. Wow. They would not understand the context if anything. So basically it was a team of a guy in England who was like an expert linguist and a guy in France who was an expert in Egyptology. And both of them basically needed all of those skills to solve it. And again, I'm only halfway through it. So I, I don't know if they actually cracked it or not. So I, I don't want to, I believe they, they

Leo Laporte (01:45:00):
Might have, but I

Andy Ihnatko (01:45:02):
Spoil, they did work it out. But, but again, you take something that's so simple. I love that. That again, Rosetta stone. Oh, that's a, you it's it's one line we that yeah, yeah, yeah. But then like, no, no, no. It took them 20 years and it drove people insane. It makes, it makes you think about how the English language is so weird too. Yeah. That like, if you just look at this as a monk, bunch of markings, what, what does the apostrophe mean? Does the apostrophe mean, wait a minute, you mean that you mean that the apostrophe doesn't mean anything in and of itself? It means that, oh, we decided to delete some letters that you need in order to figure out what this word means. Gosh,

Leo Laporte (01:45:39):
Dang it. The writing of the gods, the race to decode the Rosetta stone, Edward Dolnik is the author. You know why I bought it immediately because one of my one of my other favorite books in fact, Simon Winchester wrote a whole bunch of books. Like this is about the creation of the Oxford English dictionary. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I know you've read, just love this kind of stuff. Kind of the story of something we all kind of know about, but the story behind it is, is great. Winchester writes some wonderful books in that vein. I, I can't wait to read it. Unfortunately it's, I'm reading the wheel of time right now. It's, it's gonna be about eight years before I can get to any other book. <Laugh> so anyway, good choice. I like it. Thank you, Andy. How about you, Alex Lindsay, your pick of the week?

Alex Lindsay (01:46:23):
Yeah. real quick. One thing that's not really Mac break, but some definitely something to track if you're looking at virtual events and so and so forth, is that zoom over the break while between, when we did this acquired a partner of ours liminal. So we do a lot of work with liminal and it's gonna be a big deal. And we had we had the folks from liminal and the CTO from zoom <laugh> on, on, on office hours last week. And you can, you can check that out on YouTube. But talking kind of answering our questions related to what that looks like. It's a pretty exciting for us doing visual virtual events, it's what

Leo Laporte (01:46:58):
Is liminal? What is liminal business? What do they

Alex Lindsay (01:47:00):
Do? Liminal basically ti took full advantage of, or still takes full advantage of Zoom's API. So their API and their SDK and to basically allow you to customize everything about how zoom works. And so, so it's a front end to zoom. It's a front end. Well, it's a front end, but you can basically what it does is it zoom ISO, which is something that Lumo liminal makes lets us take all of the ISO feeds out of out of a zoom meeting. So I can say I want many people and like our, our office hours 2.0 that we're working on zoom, ISO will let us actually take the isolated outputs of 20 people and put them into our switcher automatically for per computer, just, just pump these all out. Zoom OSC, lets us have a a see all, everything that's happening.

Alex Lindsay (01:47:51):
Who's who's joining, who has their hand up, who has, and then we can say, grab this stuff and move it over there. And and we're building very complex systems for the next office hours. We're basically because we know because zoom ISO is sending all those things out and we know who is going out into the switcher. And then we can say in, in the back of our Q and a, I can, I'm, I'm going to go to these four people out of 20, it will build the super source, put the lower thirds in all that stuff gets done automatically without us having to do anything. So when I hit answer, it just builds it for us, you know, and, and it's all doing it because we have all that data from zoom and because we can control it. But we can, you know, and there's just tons of ways to automate the, the events. And so with that team inside of zoom we're really excited about the ability to create very complex events, you know, inside of it. As they, as that team kind of takes full advantage of what could be possible, go to office

Leo Laporte (01:48:46):
Hours.Global Wednesdays show 6, 4, 5, a zoom special <affirmative> and you can see all of

Alex Lindsay (01:48:53):
The information about, and that's Brenda and its who's the CTO nice came on and talked to us. So along with the Andy and, and Jonathan from liminal and Sam who runs the events for, for for zoom as well. So it was a, it was a pretty good, pretty good mix. I pick for the, for the, for the week is the, the Lynn K Z, they're horrible at names, the K Z, Z S 10 pro. This is actually what I'm wearing right now. For the price it's just an incredible 50 bucks. It's 50 bucks sounds really good. They're very comfortable and I've, I've started to use them for, you know, just my day to day when I'm on a zoom meeting. They're not quite as transparent as the sidekicks. These are the little sidekicks that I've been using. But the base response is a lot better and the thicker cable actually makes it easier for me to throw on and take off. I mean, it's, it's, it's much like what we would have as an in monitor. It's just that it's a lot less expensive.

Leo Laporte (01:49:50):
I got monitors I'm wearing are $1,500.

Alex Lindsay (01:49:53):
Exactly. And, and you know, I'm not gonna say that they're sound better,

Leo Laporte (01:49:56):
But <laugh>

Alex Lindsay (01:49:57):
Well, and, and it was great, you know, my, my, my daughter needed some in ears for her band and I just, you know, for 50 bucks I was able to get 'em and, and I've been using them a lot. And at first it was actually cuz I so used to just regular IBS, you know, whether they're the audio implements or, or, or ear heroes,

Leo Laporte (01:50:13):
Whatever I'm not, and Theyre not famous for audio fidelity on those

Alex Lindsay (01:50:16):
IBS. When I put these in, it was over, it was overwhelming. Like it was so much data and so much base and everything else. And now I'm used to, but it's, it's a really for $50, it's an incredible value. There's some ones that in that string that that company makes, I think that they OEM 'em. So there's a bunch of different ways to buy 'em, but they're really interesting, like high quality and, and again, for your day to day, I just want to, I don't wanna spend a ton of money, but I need an, I want an in ear that's gonna, that I'm gonna hear a lot and I can be in meetings and it's comfortable and I don't have to, or I mean, even if

Leo Laporte (01:50:49):
You use, oh, they even come with a mic. Oh, that's kind of cool. Do you

Alex Lindsay (01:50:52):
Use, I don't get 'em with the mic? No, I didn't get the one with Mike. Cause I put it over the back, you know, I'm doing typical. Like it's over the back of my mind. You yeah. Yeah. You don't. Yeah. So I don't, I don't, I don't use them. Those

Leo Laporte (01:51:00):
Mics never are very

Alex Lindsay (01:51:01):
Good, but yeah. So I, but anyway for perfect dollars is probably the best, best set of headphones that I've ever seen for $50.

Leo Laporte (01:51:08):
Nice. Well, and underscores what I've always thought, which is that headphones are vastly overpriced. The actual components are not expensive. And we spend a lot of money on headphones that we probably

Alex Lindsay (01:51:18):
Are throwing. Yeah. I mean, there's another version of this that I ordered that I'm waiting for to come in is like $130, but it's got like eight elements per year and yeah. You know, it's, it's a, it's a, you know, like it's I can't believe that I'm buying something with that much potential. I've talked to a couple people that said it just sounds amazing. Well,

Leo Laporte (01:51:35):
When you don't put all the money in Bluetooth radios and all these other, you know, you know, accelerometers and you just put it into the drivers, you can actually get some pretty good headphones, copper wire, copper wire, simple move on to the drivers. It works. Yeah, absolutely. Lynn L I N S O U L. They're on Amazon for $50 visit the Lynn. So store Renee Richey pick of the wake.

Rene Ritchie (01:52:01):
So I apologize, sorry. The, this is a big controversy and I don't wanna get too, too deep into the controversy, but I wanna give you so on background as to why I'm recommending this and not recommending it at the same time. So earlier, late last year, YouTube removed the dislike counter on videos, not the dislike button. You can still tap that. And every time you tap dislike on a video, YouTube is less likely to show you a similar video in the future. So that functionality is still there, but they got rid of the PO dislike count and they did it because after talking to a lot of much smaller, less privileged, less mainstream creators, they found out that they were often being brigade with dislikes to try to silence 'em or to de platform them. And because dislike public dislike counts are just not common on social media like this.

Rene Ritchie (01:52:49):
They're not on Twitter, they're not on Instagram. They're not on TikTok. Youtube felt that the value they added were not sufficient for the harm that they caused. So they removed that public counter creators can still see it inside creator studio, but this upset a lot of people. And I know some people will say it upset the privileged people, the people with millions of subscribers or the typical, you know white tech bro, dude, that you'd imagine would get upset by things like this. But there are people who use the dislike counter as a way to sort of prejudge the value of a tutorial, a how to video, whether it was outdated, whether it no longer applied, whether it spammy or scammy or something. And it was a very glanceable way of doing that. Because unlike comments, you can either turn dislike counts on and off.

Rene Ritchie (01:53:34):
You can't editorialize them. You can't pre prune them. So of course, people being people the API was still around for a while. So a Chrome extension was made that would let install it. And that would resurface the dislike count for your experience on YouTube, which is something I think YouTube should probably do on their own, but they haven't yet. So this plugin is doing it. Youtube has since removed the API, but they've been able to crowdsource through a bunch of different archives and, and different resources, historical data. And they're also allowing users to contribute their own data towards keeping this going in the future. So it's an imperfect solution, but if a lot of your YouTube experience was tied into tutorials and you used that as your quick barometer for the value of the tutorial, this plugin would at least give you that quick glanceable dislike. Count back.

Andy Ihnatko (01:54:23):
Yeah, that was awesome. I thought that was incredible. I, I saw, I, I, I was on, I think I was on Reddit and spotted that somebody had on data hoarder had actually scraped or downloaded the entire, the entire bolus of likes dislikes data for basically snapshot of the entire entirety of YouTube. Is that correct? I was like, how you do that? And that, that's how they they're extrapolating. Yeah. Amazing. That that's a lot of dislike for, for taking that feature off.

Alex Lindsay (01:54:50):
Well, there's, there's actually a lot of data mining that goes on related to that. So like, you know, if you if, if you apply to a lot of different things, you know, a variety of different organizations, they will search your social history, even your deleted tweets, you know, back to the time that you signed up for Twitter, <laugh> like, you know, that's everything careful for what you say on Twitter is the bottom. Well, everywhere. I mean, it's just, but that's just an example. So, you know, they they've really, that's a big machine that is constant. I mean, you know, and obviously for, for good it's being used by something, you know, stuff like the internet archive. But, but there's a lot of data management systems that, that keep track of all of it all the time so that people can figure stuff out about other people. It's the, that's the, that's the thing that people do,

Andy Ihnatko (01:55:37):
Andy, and NACO a little bird tells me you're gonna be doing something for our club this

Leo Laporte (01:55:43):

Andy Ihnatko (01:55:44):
That's right. I'm doing an AMA for club TWI next week. So I don't, I, I think the that part's being done of course, on this, the discord channel. So if there's anything you've ever wanted to ask me of, I don't know what people would want to ask me. I, I, I, I, I, I could make up a good answer for pretty much anything you want to ask. So geopolitics find the James web telescope versus you know, is it, is, is it, should they put it on the garage point a instead of what garage point B I'll let you know what I think about that. Just fire them, those questions on. So I'm looking forward to it. What

Leo Laporte (01:56:21):
Day? What day and time do we know Friday? Usually around

Andy Ihnatko (01:56:26):
Next. Yeah. Next it's next week. I think aunt reminded me today to make sure next week. Yes, it is next week, but you're gonna wanna get those questions in. I think

Leo Laporte (01:56:35):
You're wanna join club TWI, cuz that's the only way you can hear it. We also post after the fact on the TWI plus feed club, TWI is a ad version of all of our shows that you can get for $7 a month. So you get ad free versions. You get access to the discord channel, including Friday, January 14th at 10:00 AM. Andy ACOs am a and then if you can't be there at 10:00 AM on the 14th, that's 10:00 AM Pacific, by the way 1:00 PM Eastern. If you can't get there at 10:00 AM Pacific you can always listen to it on the special TWI plus feed, which includes not just those things, but all sorts of other stuff that doesn't make it to the podcasts before and after shows chatter. Our untitled Linox show the GI fizz with dity Bartolo. Stacy's book club, Stacy, hi Gotham's book club.

Leo Laporte (01:57:23):
There's a lot of stuff. I, I think this is the best $7 you'll ever spend <laugh> but I'm biased $7 a month go to TWI to find out more. We got we also have corporate memberships and I think we just got another corporate member. Thank you. Appreciate it. So the club goes on it's really helped us kind of smooth out the ups and downs through COVID and it's really, it's also been a great community. We really enjoy it. <Laugh> TWI. Thank you, Andy. When are you gonna be on GBH? In Boston next

Andy Ihnatko (01:57:58):
Around the usual time, Friday at 1230, go to w GB live or later to listen. Very

Leo Laporte (01:58:04):
Good. Re Witz in our discord says thank you, Renee Richie for the Nebula videos over the Christmas break, they got him through a couple of tough days. Nice that you were working on the holidays, Richie, or you can go through Nebula, right?

Rene Ritchie (01:58:21):
Yeah. And I just started a new exclusive series on Nebula. Like a lot of people asked me for a studio tour, but the way that YouTube works, if you put off topic videos up it's it's not good. It's like a restaurant that shares saying, hi dumping, suddenly giving you Haus. It's just not what anybody expects and is gonna be happy about. So I ended up putting that. I'm putting that serious up on you like Haus. Ooh there's yeah. There's always 5% of anyone who'll be happy. But I'm putting up this, the series of the studio tour on, on Nebula so people can watch it there. Doesn't it?

Leo Laporte (01:58:50):
How do people how do people subscribe to Nebula?

Rene Ritchie (01:58:54):
You know, there's, there's a lot of ways to do. You can just go to and subscribe there. I usually tell people to go to curiosity stream because they'll do give you Nebula for free when you sign up nice pick your to stream and I figure that's a better deal. So yeah, you can go there

Leo Laporte (01:59:05):
And very nice and just check it out. Very nice. Thank you, Renee. And of course, Alex, Lindsay is the major I say you're the major Domo cuz nobody knows what that means. So it really doesn't put you in a box of anything kind. Exactly, exactly. But you'll find him there many hours. And of course it's a 24 hour operation office and he's at oh nine And the liminal zoom acquisition, the topic of the week from last Wednesday.

Andy Ihnatko (01:59:38):
So when the Senate subcommittee tries to have hearings on this, they try to pull Lynn whoever's in charge. I'm don't talk to me. I'm just the major Domo. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:59:47):
No one knows what he does. I,

Andy Ihnatko (01:59:48):
I, I hope you find that guy, cuz I have

Leo Laporte (01:59:50):
A work to pick with him too. Believe you and me. I've been trying to find the right title for Alex. I think I've finally found it major Domo. Thank you Alex. Thank you and Renee. Thank you Andy. Most of all, thanks to you for listening and and watching Mac break weekly. If you wanna do it while we do it live it's back on at Tuesdays, thanks to the holidays. I hope you enjoyed our best of episode last week Tuesdays at 11:00 AM Pacific 2:00 PM Eastern 1900 UTC. The livestream If your Y live chat that's of course open to all or club members in our discord channel to go devoted to Mac break weekly. After the fact you can of course get everything we do we're podcast, right? That means you can listen after the fact go to for any of our shows for this one is B you are we gonna turn on transcripts for Mac break weekly.

Leo Laporte (02:00:46):
We've turned on on for the tech guy. And I think we're gonna turn on for a couple of shows. Steve already does those. Maybe we'll do a, maybe we'll have those transcripts available as well at the website a little bit after we're getting a robot to do it. So they'll be, <laugh> interesting at least You can also watch the YouTube channel. There's a dedicated YouTube channel, click the like button, if you will, <laugh> don't click the dislike button and there's always your favorite podcast application. In fact, if you subscribe in that, you'll get it automatically on a Tuesday afternoon and you know, you're gonna have the, these Mac break weekly anytime you wanna listen. And if your podcast player allows for reviews, please leave us a five star review. Let the world know about what is now. I think one of the longest running apple podcast, technology podcast, 15 years in the making snack break episode, 800 next week, we should have a cake. We should have a cake. Well, let, let, let

Andy Ihnatko (02:01:47):
Me put it that way. I intend to buy a cake

Leo Laporte (02:01:49):
For myself. You can have a little Debbie snack cake, if you wish. Oh no, no.

Andy Ihnatko (02:01:54):
I'm I'm going. I'm going to the bakery apartment at that good restaurant at that good

Leo Laporte (02:01:56):
Restaurant. Oh really 800 episodes. 800. Although, you know, when we started doing this, people were saying, oh, we should celebrate every time it was a hundred. I said, dude, we'll celebrate when we get to a thousand and that's not so far off either, actually no, a few years away. And we will be there. Yeah. I don't know if we'll be around to validate Alex's prediction for AR 15 years, but oh, we will. <Laugh> maybe. Why not? You know,

Andy Ihnatko (02:02:24):
Maybe it'll be okay. Maybe it'll be safe to fly for me to fly, fly to California. But that

Leo Laporte (02:02:28):
Over then too possible. No, no, we'll be around an AR table. Andy. We'll all be sitting around an AR table. Exactly. Yeah. Or we talked about that. I just wanna point out that we talked about that a TWI like on a TWI at some point, like what if we just the heads that were, no, that was the plan. That was the plan in day one. When we started doing video, I wanted to have the same technology that I use, that they used on the site to make me dev Nu right. Apparently had been shrunken down to PC size. It could easily be done. And unfortunately you guys would all have to wear rubber suits with ping pong balls on it. Other than that, <laugh> not, not a, not a meal breaker.

Andy Ihnatko (02:03:04):
<Laugh> my charisma cannot be quantized or packetized sir.

Leo Laporte (02:03:08):
I'm just saying there there's a, there's a MI emoji version of this show somewhere in the future. Yes, we could do MIMO. We could do MIMO tomorrow. You wanna do it next week? I think didn't we have didn't OTA do any a MIMO on TWI. When I was gone, he didn't do it when I was here. Notice he waited till I sounds likely the teacher wasn't wasn't in the room before he did that one. And yes. And you can all wear your rubber suits at home too, which would be <laugh> that's that's completely fashion way ahead. Way ahead of yous. That's the truth. Thanks for joining us, everybody happy new year. We're glad to be back in 20, 22 year. But now I'm sorry to say, you gotta get back to work cuz break time is over. Bye. Bye.

Mikah Sargent (02:03:54):
Do you have an iPhone, an Apple watch an iPad or any number of apple devices? Well, you have got to check out iOS today with me, Micah Sergeant and Rosemary orchard. We cover all things iOS and help you get the most out of your devices.

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