MacBreak Weekly 979 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

0:00:00 - Leo Laporte
It's time for MacBreak Weekly. Andy, Alex, Jason, all here We'll talk about Apple's trust-eroding wallet ad. They're looking at using another AI instead of Siri. Could that be? And how Apple will respond to Germany, the US, the Department of Justice they're in trouble everywhere. All that and more coming up next on MacBreak Weekly.

This is MacBreak Weekly episode 979. Recorded Tuesday, July 1st 2025: Matt Baloney. It's time for MacBreak Weekly, the show. We cover the latest Apple news, with the great MacBreak Weekly team Leading off playing first base, mr Jason Snell of sixcolors.com.

0:00:59 - Jason Snell
Hello team, good to be here, Happy to join you.

0:01:02 - Leo Laporte
Nice to have you. Good to be here In right field. We've got Alex Lindsey from officehours.global batting second.

0:01:10 - Alex Lindsay
Hello, hello.

0:01:11 - Leo Laporte
And Andy Ihnatko is our cleanup hitter. He's out there in left field, Hello Andy.

0:01:17 - Andy Ihnatko
That's fine. That's where Carl Yastrzemski wound up late in his career. I'll take that, that's okay.

0:01:23 - Leo Laporte
We are here. Well, there's a couple things. Let's start with the wallet game Technically, leo.

0:01:30 - Jason Snell
by the way, I should say you are our clean and pitter.

0:01:31 - Leo Laporte
I'm the clean and pitter. I'm fourth. It's the clean and pitter.

0:01:34 - Jason Snell
Andy's in a very important power spot, that you're the clean and pitter. I don't know what position. You're a Shohei Ohtani type. We've always said that I could pitch and hit.

0:01:49 - Leo Laporte
Uh, ladies and gentlemen, I'm calling it wallet gate boy john gruber is salty over all this now. Have any of you yet seen an f1 ad in your wallet?

0:01:59 - Jason Snell
because I still haven't yeah, so I got one in the wallet app. I didn't see the, but I have most of my notifications turned off. Yeah, me too, but I did. In the Wallet app there was a little temporary thing with a closed icon on it that said oh, you can get a deal.

0:02:15 - Leo Laporte
What do you think?

0:02:17 - Jason Snell
I kind of don't care. There are a lot of people clutching pearls. Sorry to just come out strong, but my take is not that it's fine. Sorry to just come out strong, but my take is not that it's fine. My take is that Apple has been pushing ads to us, like everybody else, for a long time now, and I don't think the fact that it came from the Wallet app instead of the TV app makes a whole lot of difference. I think that my personal philosophy about push notifications is you shouldn't push marketing notifications unless you offer an option to turn them off. Um, and that should be for every app from every company. And the irony is that in the 26 operating systems, you can turn off marketing messages in wallet, but not in the currently shipping version.

0:02:57 - Leo Laporte
Oh, interesting so this will be uh fixed in 26 it will be fixed in 26.

0:03:03 - Jason Snell
That's a nice let's just put that on a t-shirt fixed in 26. But um it it. So I don't like it. But I I don't. I have a hard time creating a lot of anger about it. Just because everybody abuses push notifications, people say, oh well, apple's guidelines. I mean, like they're guidelines, they're like you shouldn't do that. But everybody does it, including apple, and that's just the way of the world. So is this a slightly sort of beaten down take on my part? Yes, yes it is, but I feel like I feel like apple has committed so many crimes that on this front, that this is just like another one on the list, so it's hard for me to get really mad about it yeah, casey list started the whole thing and uh, this is the latest one from claude zines.

0:03:45 - Leo Laporte
Here's his real wallet with a little card. That did not happen. That did not happen. But uh, john gruber, uh, he says it's trust eroding. John gruber says it's, it's basically ruined everything apple has done.

0:04:02 - Alex Lindsay
I think my problem is I use the wallet so little that I was kind of like, okay, whatever, I don't use the wallet, because if you make the mistake of putting your flight into your wallet, it will remind you of that every 10 minutes for the next six years your flight's here, your flight's here, your flight's here. So I was like never want to put anything in the wallet. I used it for a concert on friday, but but that was kind of like a new thing and I couldn't even kind of have to.

0:04:31 - Leo Laporte
Uh like the giants games you put it in your wallet it out?

0:04:34 - Alex Lindsay
I could have printed it out or I could have had. Yeah, you could print it out. You look like a cave.

0:04:38 - Jason Snell
Yeah, most of those you can have it in the app and you don't actually have to put in the wallet, you can just have it in the app. I agree with Gruber's metaphor in the sense that erosion right and erosion is a long-term process done by individual drips of water over many, many years, and I agree with that. I feel like this is just another drip in it, and I think the fact that this happened to come out in wallet I don't think wallet is some sort of magic, sacrosanct place that should never have anything in it. I don't think it's appropriate and I think you should be able to opt out of these things. But I don't know, maybe it's just me saying it's the way of the world, like, should they have done it? Well, no, but they also spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the movie and are trying to work with their partners to sell. So I get it, I agree.

0:05:23 - Andy Ihnatko
I mean, I think that the problem is that there's still a persistent idea of oh, apple is a $3 trillion company with an immense amount of power, but they're not like other super huge, international, powerful companies that are amongst the most valuable in the entire world. They would never do that, ignoring that. Well, yeah, they are doing that, they've always done that. They've just done it in ways that we don't necessarily notice or don't necessarily find all that offensive, which is not me throwing up my hands and being cynical and saying, well, of course it's going to be, they're going to introduce crap and whatever they want. But the thing is like they're not necessarily better than any other company they love. They care about people until there's a really good business reason not to care about people, in which case the business plan, as always, has to come first. And that's not an evil thing about Apple. It's not even necessarily an evil thing about businesses. It's just the way things work. The business plan always comes first and the user will always come second.

0:06:21 - Alex Lindsay
I'm curious. I don't even know if they were targeting anybody. I mean, I don't think we know whether it was targeting.

0:06:24 - Leo Laporte
That's what I'm wondering, because I didn't get it.

0:06:26 - Alex Lindsay
But I didn't get it and I was, I did all the things that you would need to do to get an F1 invite. So, like you know, like I and and so I don't know how targeted it was as opposed to some random sample to see how it worked no-transcript cause. I think Apple's going to probably stop making features in the next, you know, any kind of features that aren't going to theatrical, probably this year or next year, and then they'll release maybe three to four features, maybe a year. The rest of it's all going to be. That's where most people are going, all series and everything else, because series are better for subscriptions, and so I think that.

But Apple also, I think, is looking at if we can move the needle. They've said this. If they can move, they want to see what they can do as far as moving the needle towards a cultural push. F1 is not as well known in the United States. They want to see if they can move that needle forward and possibly buy some of the broadcast rights for F1, and I think so. I think this is all this, got into the convolution of a whole lot of things that apple wants to do. And again, I I don't know, I don't. I think that the press is really upset. I don't know if anybody else even noticed that it happened or cared like.

I don't even think they thought, well, we've all seen that so many places maybe no, I don't even know if they thought that the wall I understand why apple did it.

0:08:02 - Leo Laporte
That Apple did it. That's not the question. The question is A? Did they target it? In which case, the sacrosanct this is what Gruber's upset about the sacrosanct privacy of your wallet.

0:08:13 - Alex Lindsay
Well, and there's ways to do that without taking away your privacy as well, like you can. So you could have the wallet looking for something without you knowing anything about it. So you broadcast it out to everyone and, based on what's sitting in your wallet, it either grabs it or doesn't, but it doesn't need. You don't need to know anything about the user to send you don't. The way that Facebook works, you need to know a lot about the user, but the way that you can build systems that allow that it's it's looking for something, but it's sent to everyone Um.

So if it was taught, they could target it without having any information about you, the um, and so that that might be the case, but I don't think they. I don't think that I say that, but I don't think they targeted anybody. I think it was a random dispersion of of of stuff to people's wallets Um. Cause. Would it be different if they did? No again, if they started, I think it would be right. If what they did is they have a central amount of data about you that they used to then target you, I think that's more problematic.

0:09:13 - Leo Laporte
I think that if it anonymously If they said, oh, this is the kind of person who would go see this movie, so let's put that little thing in there. But if the wallets that would be very problematic, right?

0:09:21 - Alex Lindsay
If the wallet's making that decision and they're sending out an anonymous, undirected that's a lot of speculation, alex. Nobody knows what I'm saying we don't know and so we can't like the assumption is always going to be by normal people.

0:09:32 - Leo Laporte
Well, I guess my wallet's not private, maybe. I think that's a leap. I think that's a leap. I think I think normal people don't even care.

0:09:39 - Alex Lindsay
I think, people.

0:09:40 - Jason Snell
I think people don't care. They know that it works this way, may assume that and not care, or they may not assume it, but saying, oh, a push notification that's generic, that came out of the wallet app if you notice, it's in the wallet app. That's about Apple Pay, by the way, so it has a clear relevance to the wallet app is somehow going to be perceived by regular people as a breach of trust. Like, will there be some people Sure People believe anything, right? We live in a world where people believe conspiracies of all sorts that are nonsense. I'm sure those people, some of those people, might believe this about this, but I I don't. I think this is a little bit too much tech industry navel gazey for me okay.

0:10:17 - Leo Laporte
Well, mike on twitter agrees with you, so we're gonna move on. That's it. You're right, mike. Moving on, boom done. But gruber is pretty upset. I mean he, it's interesting. Maybe he's decided well, if I'm going to be a pariah in the apple world, I might as well, just go all in.

Yeah, he's a real pariah, getting invited to apple park and getting briefings and stuff oh, let me tell you what pariah is yeah, that's yeah, all right, let's talk about ai, because, uh, mark, german's big scoop on sunday was apple has decided, or at least is weighing the possibility, of giving up on its ai and siri and using anthropic or open ai sounds like they're, they're, they're looking at or talking to anthropic and OpenAI, like, look, a few months ago there was that report, I think from Gurman, who said, with the new Siri team, everything was on the table.

0:11:13 - Jason Snell
And this is that thing that we talked about, where there's a real lack of trust, I think, inside Apple to the people who are building their models, or at least, if you want to be generous, an understanding that the model building team at Apple is behind on chatbot kind of stuff and they're going to need time to catch up, and that Siri is burning in the meantime. I mean, siri is burned, but like soon, real soon, and so of course you should. Again, I would say it's almost malpractice if you weren't talking to perplexity and open AI and like I mean, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to.

0:12:03 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, there's also like I'm a little bit I don't know curious about all these discussions, because Apple is probably the only major company that doesn't need to be in a huge rush. They can take two or three years to build their core models and rely on them and, of course, extend to all the other ones if they actually want to. If any user wants to use OpenAI, wants to use Gemini or anything like that. The more interesting thing in that report, I thought, was that Apple is having a hard the report that Apple is having a hard time retaining talent because, I mean, apple can't match the salaries that other companies are offering, the opportunities or the prestige that come with offering competing companies. They report also said that one of the core, like Siri teams actually threatened to walk if they weren't given like a huge bump in compensation given the volatility of the AI workforce right now. So that shows that Apple is facing threats on multiple fronts trying to get this thing shipped out.

If they do want to keep all this in-house, they're going to have to keep their researchers happy and this is not a marketplace where you can be Apple and simply say, oh well, you're going to be sworn to secrecy. No, you can't share on your LinkedIn all this wonderful research and breakthroughs you're doing to raise your own profile and raise your own career outside of Apple and you'll take basically what we think is the fair market rate. Like no, you're going to have to keep giving us enticements to stay here because we can make so much money working for anybody else right now Excuse me, that's not a fact, but again, they're so hot in the employment else right now excuse me, that's not, that's not a fact, but like they're again, they're so hot in the app in the uh employment marketplace right now that apple really has to give them pretty much whatever they want if they're going to keep this core team together according to apple insider tom gunter, one of apple's most senior large language model researchers has left the company after eight years.

0:14:06 - Leo Laporte
Uh, and of course, there is a revolt as you said it is speculated among apple's uh ai researchers. What uh german says is that apple has asked both anthropic and open ai if they could train their models to work on Apple's servers. So they would be basically saying, yeah, siri's not working out so much on our cloud infrastructure, so could we use yours. I think that's a big deal. I mean, it seems like this is a well-sourced story.

0:14:41 - Alex Lindsay
And again. The other thing, though, is that a lot of times, large companies will use a outside vendor to solve a problem, while they're figuring it out Like they're not. You know, when Google Hangouts came out, it wasn't necessarily all Google's infrastructure.

0:14:56 - Leo Laporte
Does Apple do that? I know other companies do that, but does Apple do that?

0:14:59 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, yeah, I think they do. Yeah. So I think that you outsource things until you have it working internally and then you slowly pull it back into the system.

0:15:11 - Leo Laporte
Actually, that's the story of Apple in China is how they outsourced. After a long time. Steve Jobs did not want to ever have anybody make Apple Macintoshes but Apple, but when they started outsourcing it to contract manufacturers, it worked so well. Tim Cook became the master of it.

0:15:26 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I was under the impression that iCloud was running on Google servers and, I think, amazon servers as well, and I think it probably still is in part. That's a good point, right, they have to build up server capacity of their own, which they have done, but they had never had an issue with doing that, and why would they?

0:15:46 - Leo Laporte
It's not their business that they're in well. I would actually welcome especially now that I've used uh, amazon's echo plus and it's so bad. I would welcome seeing open ai or anthropic uh, the only, I'm sorry, the the only.

0:16:01 - Andy Ihnatko
The only trouble is that apple, from day one, has been saying oh gosh, we're going to be privacy focused, privacy focused, privacy focused. How can?

0:16:09 - Leo Laporte
uh, it's not well, if it's running on their servers, it's the same. They would just be using the models on their servers.

0:16:15 - Andy Ihnatko
So we'll still have the same, okay, so it doesn't. It doesn't exfiltrate stuff to those companies so as long as, as long as open ai is okay, doesn't like make requests. Let's say that would violate that initial covenant. I mean they're they, they certainly. I mean they're they're interested in making money. Certainly, and the same reason why google is more than willing to like sell them cloud compute, because they are in the business of of serving.

0:16:41 - Leo Laporte
I don't think it's a stretch to say if apple's saying we want it to run on our infrastructure, they're also saying that means no access.

0:16:49 - Andy Ihnatko
That's the point.

0:16:50 - Leo Laporte
Otherwise they would do what they're already doing. I mean, you could already send information to ChatGPT if Siri doesn't like your question and she says well, okay, but you can use ChatGPT if you must.

0:17:02 - Andy Ihnatko
Exactly, it's second class citizen status Right.

0:17:04 - Leo Laporte
This is not what they're talking about.

0:17:06 - Andy Ihnatko
If they're elevating it to like an Apple level status. And again, it's not unprecedented. Again, Google Search shares data on device and it is the preferred search tool on AppFront. So it's not unprecedented, but it is something to we shouldn't just simply assume that if Apple were to strike a deal to run OpenAI models on Apple's Apple intelligence server hardware, that it would absolutely have the exact same controls, the exact same privacy.

0:17:35 - Leo Laporte
That's a good point. Google gets a lot of information by this search deal.

0:17:39 - Andy Ihnatko
It's a good guess, but we shouldn't absolutely assume that would be true but we shouldn't absolutely assume that's true.

0:17:47 - Leo Laporte
Uh, and, by the way, german says apple's investigation of the third-party models is at an early stage and the company hasn't made a final decision yet. Um, but I think it is kind of interesting that that's they would even be thinking about it. That's to me the sound of is it safe to say, panic.

0:18:05 - Andy Ihnatko
They've, they've, they touched the hot stove. They don't want to get burned again. I think they appreciate that they're not going to solve this in the next couple of years and, as Jason said, it's okay to sort of like rely on a crutch while they develop that model that they want to own and control 100%, and I think it's less yeah, I think it was less of a panic of of the folks that are putting it together and more of the way the PR was managed last year.

0:18:30 - Alex Lindsay
So I mean, I think that Apple could have very easily been announcing partnerships with all these folks putting those things together, integrating it with what they had, and I think that they just over wanted to oversell the fact they could do it all themselves, and I don't think they needed to do that and I think that it was, you know, but it was more of a PR disaster than an actual problem for where they're at.

I don't think that again, I just don't. I don't see that there's any real fire here other than the fireplace. You know, I think that I think that they have to figure out how they're going to incorporate AI, but whether they're doing it all or other people are doing, I think that there are massive advantages to Apple building very powerful models on device and onto a server, and I think that being able to provide and, I think, to be competitive. I think Google is going to do that with the Android, with, you know, with on Android, where they're doing more and more of the models on the phone. So I think that that that over a long period of time is something that apple has to figure out, but I don't think that they have to figure it out today or tomorrow or next year or even the year after. Yeah, and I think it's gonna take that long to do it. You know it's.

0:19:32 - Leo Laporte
It's a hard thing to do apparently uh apple nearly lost the entire team behind their open source machine learning framework optimized for silicon.

0:19:42 - Jason Snell
The engineers reportedly threatened to quit yeah, this is the big, this is their big challenge right now is it's not just a brain drain, it's also identifying who your talented players are, because I I think you know it's hard to say. It sure looks from the outside like John Jan Andrea, when he came over from Google, built a team that was focused on certain kinds of machine learning and not others, and that they have a culture that is, for whatever reason, has sort of like failed to meet the moment, at least in areas that are very visible, and I keep thinking so Gurman talks about this about that there are a bunch of people who are thinking of leaving or leaving, and there was a one group that they sort of like had to make a big offer to, and Mark Zuckerberg is out there offering people you know checks being written, six figure checks and all of that so.

So the question, though, if your Apple leadership is do you believe in your ML people or not? And and and the one way to read Gurman's piece is oh boy, they're going to have a huge brain drain where they're going to lose all these talented people. The other way to read it is what do you do if you have an organization that you think is dysfunctional and isn't up to the challenge? And the answer is you let them go because they failed, and I think that one group that they kept, that's building those ML tools. They found the value in them and they wanted to keep them.

But I think the question is still there about how do they feel about John Gianandrea and his team and what they've been able to do and what they haven't been able to do, and if this is existential for Apple, do they need a new team? Do they need to do some acqui-hire kind of things? Do they need to change the management there? And at that point, you're looking at an org chart and you've got to be in the, you know, inside the black box in order to do that part, because I mean, that's the question, right? The big question is do you, if you're an internal Apple person. Think that Apple can catch up to what these other chatbots are doing for Siri purposes in a year, two years, three years, five years or never, and then choose accordingly.

0:21:43 - Leo Laporte
There's a precedent for this, because meta seems like they're doing exactly that. Mark zuckerberg, all those big checks he's writing are to build a different team than his llama team, a super intelligence team. And uh, it looks as if he's thinking, yeah, llama, llama, let's.

0:22:01 - Alex Lindsay
Let's move in another direction well, and again and again, my whole family uses ChatGPT every day, all day, and doesn't care whether Siri can do it or not. They've given up on Siri. The other thing is, is that how many people really care? Like you know, I think that people talk about it like, oh, siri's got to fix it.

I think they could probably throw Siri away or leave Siri the way Siri is, because it's now gotten to the point for most of us that it's as easy to use chat GPT as it is to use Siri, um, to do almost everything that you want to do, um and so, uh. So I think that it's I am not clear that that uh, again, that it really matters about fixing Siri. I think they just leave Siri the way Siri is and figure out what they're going to do next. I think there's always this mistake of hey, we want to try to fix the thing that we have. Sometimes the best thing to do for the thing you had was to make it obsolete. You know, I think just trying to regear it is going to be much harder than just coming out with something new.

0:22:53 - Leo Laporte
in two years it might be a question for our AI show, intelligent Machines, which is tomorrow. It does make me start to think that, even though the techniques being used by all the AI companies are well known, that only a handful of companies really seem to be able to do it. Amazon's struggling with Alexa Plus, apple's obviously struggling yeah, meta's struggling, it's.

0:23:20 - Alex Lindsay
OpenAI, anthropic and Google. But every established company always has trouble fitting the new model it's the new wine into the old wineskin.

0:23:26 - Leo Laporte
True, 't figure out like there's a new companies.

0:23:28 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, they're they're, they're new, they're new and they uh, and it's, this is new way of thinking and they have to protect their uh, privacy. They have to, they have to, you know, protect the brand. They have to protect all these other things. They have to make sure that it all ties into this thing and what happens here and people then you worry about. If I make this available over here, everyone's going to want it over there, you know, and I won't be able to do that, you know. And so there's all these complex pieces that I think that, for established companies, this is why companies get disrupted.

0:23:57 - Leo Laporte
It's because they can't, that's right.

0:23:59 - Alex Lindsay
That's why Boeing got disrupted by SpaceX is because, they have old ways of doing things that don't fit into the new process.

0:24:05 - Leo Laporte
Maybe that Google's only a player, because the technologies were invented at Google and there's just a little inertia.

0:24:10 - Alex Lindsay
They've been thinking about. Google's been working on this for so long they invented it all.

0:24:14 - Leo Laporte
I mean, it all started at Google, all these people were at Google.

0:24:18 - Alex Lindsay
It's 15, almost 20 years old at Google.

0:24:21 - Leo Laporte
Although Google had to acquire DeepMind to get the real talent, deepmind was also a startup. So maybe you're right. Maybe the incumbents just don't have a shot.

0:24:30 - Alex Lindsay
The other thing that we're seeing is that if you're a junior programmer, you're probably in a lot of trouble. If you're a senior programmer or a very adept programmer, the value of people who can still understand the code, especially related to AI oh, big bucks, it's like sports team problems it is.

0:24:47 - Jason Snell
You know, yeah, and there's no salary cap in these big companies and I wanted to say a little thing about that, which is I've seen some people be kind of outraged by these, oh these outrageous amounts of money that are being offered to programmers, uh, who are doing, you know, basically ai, researchers, folks. Do you see what these companies are worth and how much of their net worth is built up in?

0:25:10 - Leo Laporte
how they respond to AI.

0:25:13 - Jason Snell
Well, that was going to be my example, which is people complain about. I mean, first off, people complain about people getting paid a lot of money. People who don't make that amount of money complain about that and say nobody's worth. It's like okay, but how broken do you have to be in your worldview to look at companies that are worth a trillion dollars and say, oh, it turns out there are a hundred people who are going to determine the future value of that corporation, yeah, and say they don't deserve more than making, you know, two hundred thousand dollars a year. It's ridiculous's just like saying, if that baseball team is worth a billion dollars and you've got an all-star perennial, one of the 10 best players in baseball, and you're going to sign him to a contract for 10 years for 700 million, that it's like he's overpaid. It's like, well, no, he's not, because his value to that trillion dollar corporation or billion dollar corporation is enormous, and that is I mean.

So I hope those people get paid. I really hope they do, because they deserve it. They are. They have, like. If you're Mark Zuckerberg, I really think his attitude is good here, which is it's only money right, like they've got. He's got plenty of it, all the money.

0:26:25 - Leo Laporte
And if it's, if it's only money you've got, he's got plenty of all the money. And if it's, if it's only money.

0:26:28 - Jason Snell
You've got all the money venice for the weekend and it is and it is critical. You believe it's critical to the future of your business. Why would you not spend the money?

0:26:34 - Andy Ihnatko
yeah, and remember back in the steve jobs era they had all this. All the silicon valley ceos basically had an agreement that we are not. We're not. We're going to create an artificial environment where trouble for that. That'll keep that if someone where we won't hire from each other and therefore that will keep the salaries low because they can't simply take a better offer from a competing company. So it is exceptionally good that people are getting paid what their contribution to the company is valued is actually worth. They lost that antitrust case.

0:27:03 - Jason Snell
And think about yeah, I mean, the whole poaching thing is kind of disgusting, especially in California, where there's no such thing as a non-compete clause in California and so like. To have Steve Jobs and Eric Schmidt agree not to hire each other's people is really gross. But I'd also say it feels kind of broken to me and I know that this is a thing that is broken and VCs make a lot of money on how broken it is, because right now the perception is that the only way to, if you're a an incredibly talented person in Silicon Valley, to make a lot of money is you leave your giant company, you do a startup, you take a bunch of VC money and then you get bought out and then in the buyout company that you left.

Yeah, you you get and you get bought out. You make a buyout company that you left. Yeah, you, you get and you get bought out. You make a lot of money, the vcs make a lot of money and the company you left bought you back for a huge amount of money. I mean, we just saw that that that app that is being worked on that's what software applications that that it's the uh sky, which is basically the shortcuts team at apple, left and built an entire utility that uses ai to let you do automations on the Mac.

0:28:06 - Leo Laporte
Were they the workflow people who were bought by Apple, who were bought by Apple, left Apple and then they left.

0:28:11 - Jason Snell
Apple and they started a new company and you look at their product and you say why is that not part of the system software? And the answer is because they weren't allowed to do that inside Apple and because this way they get investments, they get money and they'll get bought by somebody and it's just it's so. I kind of like how old fashioned Mark Zuckerberg is being and saying you know what? I'm just going to pay you a lot of money to stay here and work for me, like yes, do that.

0:28:33 - Alex Lindsay
And and and Facebook's really good at that, like they. They give people that work there, like here's a million dollars of stock for the next couple of years and when we get to the end of that, we'll give you another million dollars, scott. They understand that that's their currency. That they have is currency, you know, and I think that-.

0:28:52 - Jason Snell
It's literally currency.

0:28:53 - Alex Lindsay
It turns out they don't need anything else. But the interesting thing is is that a lot of times you see people go into these companies, they get bought out by the company and they have all these ideas. If only I had the resources of this big company, I could. I could boil the ocean. And then they get there and they're drowned. They just drowned in the ocean of, of, of process, right, and they can't get done what they want to get done. They're now, you know they're, and then they also are not getting compensated as much as they could if they sold, you know, made in their own company. So you're, you're a hundred percent right. And then they, you know, they wait for them, they wait for the stock to um, you know, to uh vest, and then once it's vested, they go okay, well, I'll go out and do it again.

I know someone who sold a company to Google. They sold three companies to Google. Like they got in, they, they, they, they got, they invested, they went out, they started another company, came back in and for the big companies sometimes it works because the fluidness of for Google it works because the fluidness of how people think is different in a big company. There's just too much. You're protecting your 401k, you're trying to figure things out, and there's things you'll do in your garage that you won't do in a big company, and so I think that that's the um, that's the hard part that all these companies have to kind of manage right now.

But I think that Apple is going to have to, like everybody else. If Apple doesn't get aggressive, they have the money Like as Jason said, like Facebook's got the money and Apple's got more money and they are going to have to spend it on the talent or they're not going to be able to keep, they're not going to be competitive at all. They might as well just outsource it if they're not going to be ready to spend 20, 30, $40 million a year on a handful of people, because not all the programmers the way they think not. You know we, we have a huge feeder system for quarterbacks in the United States and you get to the end of the year and there's maybe six out of you know 10 million, 20 million that started at five years old. There's now six that that we think we can act, that can actually make a team go forward in the programmers are the same.

You know, like there's a handful of programmers that they're not. They're not all interchangeable. It's not like oh, you can code, now you can do the same thing. The way they think, the way that they approach it, the how, how they innovate. There's a handful of them that are way better than everybody else. In the vertical that they're in right and it happens to be, the sun is shining on ai right now.

0:31:08 - Leo Laporte
It's a good time to be an ai guy man. Uh, yeah, you said 10, 20, 30, 40 million. Uh, could be a lot more than that actually looks like might be even as much as 100 million a year facebook walked that back and said that's a multi-year contract for 100.

0:31:23 - Alex Lindsay
They didn't say they weren't paying 100, they said for some people, they.

0:31:26 - Leo Laporte
I think there's weasel words in what facebook said. It sounds like some people did in fact get a pretty if they make it into the post season, right, exactly, yeah, all right, let's take a little break.

More to come iOS uh updates. macOS updates we've got beta 2 for the new operating system. Uh, we also have some trouble in the EU, but Apple's got a solution and more coming up in just a bit with Andy Ihnatko, Jason Snell, Alex Lindsay you're watching MacBreak Weekly, brought to you today by 1Password.

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Second betas for but why are we calling it iOS 18.6, mac OS 15.6, watch OS 11.6?

0:34:18 - Jason Snell
Those are uninteresting betas that nobody's running.

0:34:20 - Leo Laporte
These are not the 26 betas. These are the existing OS betas.

0:34:24 - Jason Snell
Yeah, yeah, Like I said, who's running these? I guess people have to who are testing things, but we've all the rest of us have all moved on.

0:34:30 - Alex Lindsay
We've all moved on. We're cutting edge betas.

0:34:32 - Jason Snell
These are just. Yeah, this is cleanup work at the end of the old cycle, so how soon before the public betas for 26?

0:34:43 - Leo Laporte
What do you think?

0:34:46 - Jason Snell
They said this month. Well, it's any day now, but my guess it'll be in a couple weeks, july 30th. Could be as late as July 30th, Honestly it's so solid already that I would imagine it would be soon, is it, however? It is it is. However, usually what happens is the public beta happens like a week after the same developer release goes out, so that they can check and make sure there's nothing really bad last chance last, there hasn't been a developer beta this week yet.

Maybe it'll come, but it hasn't happened yet. So if that's the case, maybe it's next week that comes out and then maybe the following week. Also, you probably won't don't want to do this over the fourth of july weekend, so so if I had to guess and I don't have any inside knowledge of this about when it's going to be released, but if I had a guess I'd say you know what, july 15th sounds pretty good. But then again, if something weird happens with developer beta 3, they might say no, no, no, no, no and push it off a little bit further and they have the whole month as a target. But my guess would probably be smack in the middle.

0:35:49 - Andy Ihnatko
I'm just wondering what we haven't seen yet, what haven't they implemented yet? Are there big hunks that they haven't even announced yet? So I don't doubt you at all. I'm just saying that we're still in a beta process and I don't think they've pulled out that. We're still in the dev beta process and I don't think they've pulled out. I don't think they've shown all their cards yet. So I'm hoping things progress well. I mean, I've been using the dev beta like on a daily basis on my iPhone 14 Pro and I concur I have not seen I've not even seen any problems with battery life, which is usually the biggest thing you can count on on a developer beta, because that's before they do all the fine tuning for extending battery life and it's been very, very stable. I'm having so much difficulty resisting the urge to install it on my iPad because I use my iPad all the time. It has to work and everything has to be compatible with it, but it's been so stable on every other platform that I've been using.

0:36:45 - Leo Laporte
That's like yeah jason, should andy do it?

0:36:48 - Jason Snell
walk in the wild side, dude.

I am entirely on the betas now, entirely all of my devices are on the betas now, other than I guess my apple watch isn't yet, although I probably should just do that too. And part of that is because of what my job is, but also in prep previous summers, I have waited because I've been like you know, do I really need? And I realized, partly for my job and also partly because I I mean, I have some extra hardware, that I installed it on. But after the first week of the experience being pretty solid, I just went ahead and just jumped in. So it's not for everybody, but I you know. My hope is that, especially when public data time happens, that it will be not an unpleasant experience for people.

0:37:29 - Leo Laporte
And most apps work pretty well.

0:37:34 - Jason Snell
I haven't had any real incompatibilities. There are occasionally apps Like I have one app that I used to just do. It's an audio app and I used to be able to process audio in it and do Command-S to save it. And I realized, oh, command-s, do command s to save it. And I realized, oh, command s doesn't seem to save it, but exporting that file works fine. And that is literally the only thing that I've noticed across all of my apps. So yeah, it's pretty solid, nice and iPadOS is a significant enough.

0:38:00 - Andy Ihnatko
Update like that's, that's where the temptation comes. I'm definitely not waiting.

0:38:04 - Jason Snell
It is although mac os is too like between the new um, the new spotlight and menu bar stuff, I would say mac os has got a lot going for it too.

0:38:15 - Leo Laporte
But yes, ios is number one, ipad os yeah well, if you're in the eu, I have bad news for you. You're gonna get some of them, but you know this is very almost a Trumpian thing. Well, you could forget about all the new iOS 26 features. Eu. Until you cooperate with us, we're not going to cooperate with you. Is it retaliation why We've already made the decision, says Kyle Andeer, vice president of Apple Legal, to delay the release of products and features we announced this month for our eu customers.

0:38:50 - Andy Ihnatko
Uh, the changes that the eu has forced on apple quote create real privacy, security and safety risks to our users, so it does sound like a little bit like so there, yeah, it's a little bit complicated though, because one of the problems with again, I'm consistently not necessarily universally pro-regulation, but I'm definitely not against it digital and the dma and other and other stuff it's not as specific and clear-cut as to how apple should comply with this as it should be. That gives, I think, apple a certain amount of credibility in saying we don't know how to comply with this. Therefore, we don't want to be hit with another half a billion dollar, fine. Now we've also seen, just last week, the environmental nutrition label law that went into effect, where they said, hey, we're complying with this and we're actually going to publish this paper on here's how we came up with these numbers, in hopes that it will help you, the EU, be more specific about how to make these labels more efficient and more accurate and more useful for the consumer.

But again, I don't think they were facing a half a billion dollar, fine. And also, this is a very printing up a bunch of labels is not all that difficult, whereas reengineering your app store is a very big deal. Rewriting policies in a way that even if Apple did, was interested in making a good faith effort to do what the EU is clearly telling them to do which they are not doing at all, even if they were making a good faith effort. This is not the sort of stuff that you can just simply drop a penny and you get the candy out.

0:40:32 - Leo Laporte
And it's kind of a back and forth negotiation right. The Apple has changed their terms. Originally, apple said developers, you can add one single static URL in your app and they restricted tracking parameters, redirects, intermediate links.

0:40:51 - Jason Snell
It's a pretty dramatic change. They've opened it up. They've opened that up like they have in the US, although there's some commission things, and they changed the terms are totally different, starting either now or January 1st, where it goes to a max of 20% and small business is 15% or 13%, and what they're doing is they're doing a much lower commission and then they're doing a 5% core technology commission on top of that for revenue, whether it's in or out of the App Store, and so that means you're not penalized if you opt to also be available either on your own website, which is also a new feature. If you qualify as a developer in good standing, you can just offer your app on your website. You don't need to be Remember.

There was that weird construction where it was like ah, let's free the users from the app store by making it mandatory that there be other app stores, and it's like well, what about no app stores? They're going to do that now. So it's a huge restructuring of the developer terms. That might be good. It's complicated, right, and I think in many ways Apple is trying to say okay, you want it the way, you want it. We're going to show you the complexity of what we're doing here. There's also a weird tier where you get like no app store promotion or reviews or stuff which is very much Apple saying. This is we feel we add value that you are not paying attention to and we're going to point out that we add value beyond just hosting this and it's not just about us having control. I think that kind of overstated, but it is. It is fair for them to say it. Go ahead, alex.

0:42:24 - Alex Lindsay
I think that that's also. That five percent is also for the Tim Sweeney's out there that say they don't really need Apple to do anything for them. So for a very large company, spotify makes sense.

0:42:34 - Jason Snell
Spotify they're at their own pipeline their PR pipeline.

0:42:38 - Alex Lindsay
So this is kind of the no, no frills version.

0:42:41 - Jason Snell
But we're not going to help you either, right Like it's like literally, we're not going to help you and these companies have said they don't need any help.

They don't need the help. I think there's a fair point that says that there are certain giant companies that do not need Apple's help, that Apple's not substantially contributing to their business. I mean, it really is just a place for them to put the app that's extruding from the service that they sell, and I think that that's fair. I do think also, though, they're making the point that you know that they've said all along, which is look, we, we offer value to developers, that, and so now we created this tier one that offers no value to developers, and you can see the platform other than than access, Exactly Right.

0:43:22 - Leo Laporte
You get app distribution and delivery, trust and safety features app management. You lose automatic app updates, automatic downloads across devices. So actually this is really more of a pain for customers, because I download spotify on my phone. It doesn't go to the but, it also doesn't include promotions, search suggestions, ratings and reviews on product listings, including inclusion and personalized recommendations. Right Developer marketing tools. Almost nobody is going to take this feature.

0:43:48 - Jason Snell
But they're basically like if you want to collect the money and not have any help from us, go ahead, and it does. I think it's kind of pointed to the EU as well, where they're saying look, we're charging that same core technology commission to everybody, which I should say also is a huge update. Oh, that's a big change.

It is a huge update, the Cork technology fee Because they used to count it per install above a million and it was really a mess and it basically created enough potential harm to keep people from opting into the new rules. Now everybody's going to be on the new rules, but those aren't the rules anymore. It's based on revenue, it's not based on and it's based on new revenue, so it's not based on counting app installs or anything like that anymore.

0:44:31 - Leo Laporte
That's huge. This is very controversial.

0:44:34 - Jason Snell
A lot of these things are actually good. It just took them like a second take to get there, but they did get there.

0:44:42 - Leo Laporte
They get there dragging their feet. Apple said the European Commission is requiring Apple to make a series of additional changes to the App Store. We disagree with this outcome and plan to appeal.

0:44:52 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I object, sir, it's grumpy.

0:45:00 - Andy Ihnatko
Grumpy and why I side so heavily against them on so many of this that you can't convince me that they are bringing new customers to Amazon Kindle books. They are not bringing new people to Spotify. They deserve something for developing the platform. But, however, I keep looking for a rational explanation from Apple about if I want to buy a comic book, why do you deserve a huge cut of that sale, and not finding any answer that really makes sense to me. So this is a really, really positive thing. Time will tell what the end result is going to be for the user experience, but I find it hard not to be very, very happy about this, and I will simply end by saying that. And Apple also gets to say hey, if we're removing stuff from the EU, isn't that like a divorced parent saying sorry, kids, I wanted to buy you the brand new Xbox, but your mother said you can't have it, so- Well, and I think that the issue is also, I do think that we have to remember a little bit of Apple's past.

0:46:06 - Alex Lindsay
whether we remember it or not, I guarantee everyone at Apple does. That's there, that's running the company is. No one forgets 1997. Like they're at Apple, like it is something they think about all the time and their services are slowly building up to a larger and larger percentage of the company and that is a survival mechanism for Apple. Larger and larger percentage of the company, and that is a survival mechanism for Apple. That is a if the iPhone doesn't work out, or China, if there, if the tariffs become too hard or everything else, there's this other thing that doesn't require those things. And so, from when you're, when you're, when you're pushing against Apple's service fees and what they're doing to them, I think it's an existential threat. You know, like it is a, it is a. They are looking at no-transcript. How about we do 300% on wine until they get rid of the DNA?

0:47:11 - Jason Snell
I don't think you would fight harder, because I think they are fighting at 100%. I think you're absolutely right. My counter argument would just be that they might've been able to mitigate. If this is inevitable, they might've been able. If they win, it's different, but if it's inevitable, they might've been able to mitigate it by treating it differently.

I wanted to throw out, though, I think that story that we started with here, which is features not coming to the EU that are in the 26 operating systems, like that's the one that really gets me in a way where I agree with Apple, like the idea that if Apple wants to roll out iPhone mirroring or live activities in the menu bar or who knows what else, the implication is, if Apple wants to add new features to macOS that integrate with iOS since iOS is a gatekeeper platform that either, based on their interpretation, it's not just a gimmick they believe that either they'll be fined or they'll be forced to build those features either for windows or for android, and open those features up instead of just doing a nice feature that's synergy with their phones.

And, like I can, you can make the arguments that the eu would make, which is like oh, you should play fair, but if I'm apple and I look at that, I I think they're well within their rights and I think it's not unreasonable to say no, we built the feature we wanted to build for our products. You're not going to legislate us to force us to build it for other products.

0:48:37 - Alex Lindsay
So we're just going to leave it out, Especially when you're 14% of our market. Like you know, like at some point the EU doesn't make sense for Apple, Like, and so if they cause enough trouble, you know, at 14, they're 14% of Apple's market.

0:48:47 - Jason Snell
It's like they can just leave features out. Yeah, you know.

0:48:50 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah and that's, but that's part of what makes this such a complicated argument that like, for instance, I've absolutely, you're absolutely right, it's like it's one of the benefits you get from Apple is the Apple ecosystem, is system, is that things work so well together. They are so intimate in how they work together and it would be very in so many cases it would be prohibitively difficult to make that feature to put your Android phone on your Mac desktop. However, there's also the idea of OK, but why are you absolutely locking out every other smartwatch pretty much from the operating system where, no, you can't get notifications, no, you can't get actionable stuff. System where, no, you can't get notifications, no, you can't get actionable stuff. No, you can't uh, get access to biometrics, all the sort of stuff that basically says you're, you're stuck at uh, at pebble watch, circa night, 2014, 2015, even if you have the fanciest 500 samsung watch.

0:49:41 - Alex Lindsay
It's, it's difficult but it's not apple's job to make that like. It's not their job. You know you can't government. This is the distortion of all these regulations is we're now going to make all these companies write things for us as opposed to the company. And again, if Apple had, I think that the argument would be completely different if Apple had 90% of the market. If Apple had 90% of the market, I would say you mean you can make them do whatever you want them to do, even 75% of the market, you can make Apple do whatever you want.

I think the problem is that Apple is at less than 50% of the United States and far less than 50% of the world, and so the thing is they are not a monopoly. They are one of the phone companies, one of the phone providers. There's all kinds of other people manufacturing phones. If people don't like it, they can go somewhere else. He's one of the phone providers. There's all kinds of other people manufacturing phones. If people don't like it, they can go somewhere else. And again, if they got to 75% or 80%, I think that all of the things we're talking about are valid.

0:50:32 - Jason Snell
But at 50%? I don't think so. The EU disagrees with you because they defined it this way. I know you two don't get along that much, but here's what I would say, because I agree with both of you in a weird way and in a weird way. And here's the difference. The watch thing that Andy mentions iOS is closed. There's no way for anybody else to build that connection in the same way that Apple has.

Macos is open, and this would be my argument if I was Apple at the EU, which is Google or anybody, is free to write Mac software that enables Android screen sharing and puts things in the menu bar and puts out notifications, but we're not going to write it.

You're not going to make us write it. If now, if it's impossible to do that on Windows, to do screen sharing with an iPhone on Windows, maybe there's an argument there that's like you need to allow Microsoft to write software that will show your phone screen on, you know, and give them access to iOS in that way. But in my mind the difference is not should you be forced to do it as Apple. The difference is can anybody else interoperate with your devices? And if it's impossible, then in the long run that's probably an issue, but but you know, some of these things that they're asking are literally, if we boil it down, some of them are don't launch a new feature unless you've built compatibility for the universe on day one. And that is too much to ask, and I I think that I.

0:52:06 - Alex Lindsay
I do think that something's interesting that is kind of going under the radar is as you watch how Apple's handling private IPs and, you know, hide my email and all those other things you are slowly watching them build an infrastructure in which a person doesn't have to be in a certain place. This will mean that, hey, if you register eventually. This could mean hey, if you register eventually. This could mean hey, if you register that you're in the EU, you don't get any of this stuff. But if you say I'm willing to, this phone is going to not be in the EU, even though I live in Luxembourg. You know, and I can hide where I'm from and I can hide all the other bits and pieces you won't get.

Any person doesn't have to declare where they are in the world and if they want to live by us rules, they can just live by us rules, and so the so, the so. I think that there's. I think Apple has been playing this. They're slowing it down, but I don't think that they're ignoring the fundamental fact that a lot of the stuff may go through, but they're building a bunch of ways that Apple users can work around it. I think that that's kind of a as you start to look at why do those bricks make sense? They make sense if you want to get around all of these things.

0:53:22 - Leo Laporte
Well, if you're in the EU, you have our deepest sympathies I love it.

0:53:27 - Jason Snell
Leo, here's a pro thing. Pro host, move. Uh, throw out the eu as a topic and then go eat some lunch. Yeah, that's, how'd you know I was doing that? Well, because I can see you even when you're not on camera, and uh, it's it is it's like I I got it. You disappeared and I'm like, oh yeah, you threw us a bone and then, and then we are you guys could handle it I didn't need to interject in any way that is why you are the king

0:53:50 - Leo Laporte
right there that's it exactly. Uh, germany, speaking of the eu, has asked apple and google to pull deep seek from the app stores. Um, probably because it's the chinese ai right yeah, that's exactly the reason why yeah uh, do they have tiktok in uh germany, I wonder? I bet they do. Yeah, yeah, all right it's tough?

0:54:18 - Andy Ihnatko
well, it's. It's tough. This is these are they're going to be more and more problems that apple has to deal with where, as apps become more and more politicized, to have individual regimes across the world decide that, for national security reasons, we want you to, we need you to remove this app. It doesn't matter what our reasons are. We are telling you to do that, you have to do that. And then, when Apple gets asked to do something that is legitimately a very, very weird request for them to comply with, apple is always going to be forced to think what is the political blowback, what is the commercial blowback and what is going to be the PR blowback of complying with this or resisting this. And we're going to see this in the United States as well as much as any other country.

0:55:04 - Leo Laporte
Apple has not responded to Reuters about what we're going to see this in the united states as well as much as any other country. Uh, apple has not responded to reuters, uh, about what they're going to do with this request.

0:55:10 - Andy Ihnatko
They haven't responded yet, uh, nor has google if germany were to make that app illegal within germany.

0:55:17 - Leo Laporte
That gives apple a clear well, our hands are tied, yeah, yeah, they need cover. Brazil let's come back across the Atlantic, ladies and gentlemen wants a piece of the app store anti-competition fines that apple's facing worldwide. They're looking over there at eu saying that's a nice packet of change. You got there. So now, uh, the brazilian uh regulator, consello administrivo de venza economica, cade, has opened an investigation. Actually, they opened it a couple years ago. Uh, they said apple's conduct constitutes an infringement of the economic order. Wow, this is uh, particularly over restrictive practices, over third-party marketings. You know, it's the anti-stirring stuff apple is, you know, in trouble for in the eu. Uh, the new recommendation uh, follows a series of moves by brazil to find apple. So I'm not sure what, the, how much they're, uh, they're asking for. They haven't said. Apple responded in a statement repeating that cade's proposed measures for preventing anti-steering would pose guess, guess what Just take a wild guess Privacy and security risks for users. We will continue to discuss this with Cade. They say, apparently they have to take it to court if they're going to pursue a fine in Brazil. I'll tell you what. Let's do a fine in the in Brazil? Ah, let's, uh, let's, should we? I'll tell you what. Let's do a little break. And then it's the vision pro segment. I am told there are many things to talk about, at least more than one. There are vision pro gurus will join us in just a bit Jason Snell and Alex Lindsey, Andy Ihnatko, and we will have lunch this time.

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All right time for the vision pro segment. We're gonna merge the vision pro jingle with our court docket, which we don't have.

1:00:20 - Jason Snell
But if we did.

1:00:22 - Leo Laporte
Kachunk, senior Vision Pro Engineer, allegedly took a massive volume of secret plans to snap. Oops, oh snap. D Liu said I'm leaving Apple because of health reasons, but what he did instead was he went over to Snapchat as a developer in what Apple calls a substantially similar role. He wanted to spend more time with his family. Well maybe his family's at Snapchat.

1:00:51 - Alex Lindsay
He can with a load of cash.

1:00:53 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, he stole a massive according to Apple, which is suing he stole a quote massive volume of trade secrets. He stole a quote massive volume of trade secrets Quote because Mr Liu did not inform Apple he was departing to work on another company's product. Mr Liu was permitted to stay on at Apple for the standard two-week departure period rather than immediately losing access to Apple's proprietary information Three days before he walked out the door. Apple alleges he used his company credentials to download thousands of apple documents. That's so dumb containing trade secrets.

1:01:25 - Andy Ihnatko
super dumb putting him on his personal cloud storage I think nobody will ever notice this yeah, he's gonna be known as the guy who ruined it for everybody. Like that's what I mean. Like, like that, yeah, like hi, uh, I'm gonna be leaving in two weeks and then suddenly slam, you get duck, walked, you're picked up by the, by the, by the scholar, and just thrown out that's why they do it.

1:01:45 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, yeah, but even let's come on. Let's be honest. If you know that you're going to give notice tomorrow, you download the documents today that would be smarter wouldn't it?

1:01:54 - Jason Snell
yeah, or you don't download them, you just memorize them because when you quit, you're gonna, when you quit they're gonna, look at your access anyway, come on like and if they didn't before, they will. Now they're like oh, we quit and shut off access. Oh, but he downloaded a thousand documents yesterday, like the j, like you shouldn't do don't, don't commit, uh, this kind of act. That's the answer here.

1:02:17 - Andy Ihnatko
You think that this new employer basically was oh no, no, no, we don't, we want. What we want is that brain inside that incredible, we like you, we don't want any, then it's then like, then, like late, late, late.

1:02:29 - Alex Lindsay
Actually, you know what, before we give you that signing bonus, if you could bring, let's just call it 2500 documents well, and the question is it also could be that he took them all just to make sure that he kept on having the brain like you know, you download them all you go oh I thought of something last night, and that's he's got the most amazing notebook, lm duck.

1:02:47 - Andy Ihnatko
It's like yesterday.

1:02:48 - Alex Lindsay
It's like yesterday with the beatles, I thought of another song you know that is such a good movie.

1:02:54 - Leo Laporte
I love that. I love that movie, especially when he meets john lennon, who never became a star and he's had a good life and he lived to the his version of the long and winding road.

1:03:04 - Alex Lindsay
I like better than the beatles.

1:03:06 - Andy Ihnatko
Long and winding road like it's much okay, the the the d wall of sound version or the released version with the wall of sound. Because they did, they did let it be naked.

1:03:16 - Leo Laporte
Let it be that's true. Phil specter ruined. Let it be he did.

1:03:20 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, I don't know. I know the one that I won when I, because I was like what did that? I don't remember that song being like that and I listen. Yeah, it's whatever apple music handed me when I. When I said, when I put that in if you have not seen this movie.

1:03:32 - Leo Laporte
The premise of it is this guy gets bonked on the head and suddenly wakes up in a world where the beetles never existed, yeah, but he remembers all the songs. So he he starts writing, writing.

1:03:42 - Jason Snell
He's a musician, you know, and so he yeah yeah, he's got a guitar and yeah, it's directed by Danny Boyle.

1:03:47 - Alex Lindsay
Richard.

1:03:47 - Leo Laporte
Curtis wrote it.

1:03:48 - Jason Snell
It's such a good movie it is, it's really good.

1:03:51 - Alex Lindsay
I like it. I love that movie. I love the movie.

1:03:53 - Leo Laporte
My favorite. I think one of my favorite scenes is he's on a talk show music. Could you just write one today? Right in front of us and the guy says, well, all right, let me think yesterday all my troubles.

1:04:06 - Jason Snell
It's like, okay, wouldn't it be cool if you could? Yeah, wouldn't it be the parallel universe that's. That's the classic. Stephen King wrote a story at some point where where, like, a character gets a Kindle and it turns out that it has access to Amazon in a parallel universe, and so it's got all these books that were never written or by people who died. But then they later wrote these books and it's just such a fun exercise to think about that, like what if things were just a little bit different and there was a? In fact there's. One of my favorite bits is in the TV show counterpart, which is a classic, one of the best shows of the last decade. Find it somewhere. I don't even know where it is these days, but two seasons, 20 episodes. It's great. It's about two parallel universes that are connected together by a tunnel in Berlin and somebody gets pulled aside for trying to smuggle something from one side to the other. And it's the new Prince album.

It's like oh oh, that's so rough.

1:05:02 - Alex Lindsay
That's so rough, he's fine over there.

1:05:04 - Jason Snell
He's still making music over there. That's it, yeah yeah so anyway, yesterday is a good one. What were we talking about again?

1:05:10 - Leo Laporte
don't download before we go on. I do have to a dissenting opinion from the YouTube chat. My friend Norman Maslow, who is a beetleologist and has beetle lunchboxes, beetle wigs he's a beetle guy says phil, specter saved. Let it be, I don't know about that.

1:05:27 - Jason Snell
I don't know about that beetles like think so, I would counter with that with that. Uh, there's a youtube video going around of um brian wilson sitting down with george martin, the beatles producer, and, uh, and it's from like a special from like the 90s or something, it's just like standard def captured off of broadcast TV. But, george Martin, they sit down at a mixing board with pet sounds, with God only knows, and George Martin starts mixing it in front of Brian Wilson and Brian Wilson says oh my God, that sounds so much better than the version we did. And George Martin goes oh Brian, that's, that's very silly. It's like it's totally true, because he took the wall of sound out of it and made the george the beatles version of it instead.

1:06:10 - Leo Laporte
so george george.

1:06:11 - Jason Snell
I wish I'd have to look for that yeah it's, it's really brief, but you hear just a glimpse of it and you're like, oh god, that was. And you know, if you like the wall of sound, you like the wall of sound again.

1:06:22 - Alex Lindsay
Don't drought, download trade secrets, that's what we're really saying here, especially not around the the headset don't download trade. See, you know, it's one thing. It's one thing to leave knowing what you know, that's, that's pretty clean. Uh, you know you're smarter because you worked at that company that's right.

1:06:37 - Jason Snell
You have freedom of movement. That's, that's all.

1:06:39 - Alex Lindsay
Good are crappy you start sharing non-disclosure stuff once you left. That's a little, that's a gray area. Most people documents right, but documents that is like oh, you're screwed, we're you, you've crossed, you're going to jail the rubicon, yeah, yeah, so uh, apple sent out surveys.

1:06:57 - Leo Laporte
Did you guys get one of these to vision pro users asking him about the meta ray bands? Did you get one, jason? I did not. I think I did and I just kind of ignored it like I was like you could have a scoop, man. Yeah, I know, I think that you need a nose for news.

1:07:15 - Alex Lindsay
Mr lindsey, I you know the problem is you get so much mail and you look at it and go, is that right now? And then you just keep going like, oh, I don't, it's like.

1:07:22 - Leo Laporte
It's like last month when I got the email from audible saying, hey, we're going to cancel your account in two weeks, but if you want a free year of audible, we'll give it to you. I mean, there's so much spam now what am I? Spam. And then and then what didn't go? My spam is the email from audible saying your account has been cancelled. And so I called them up. I said hey, uh, what about that free year? They said no, no, that offer is expired. You had till May 31st, dude yeah, okay, so much.

There's so much phishing, phishing and spam that you know I just kind of ignore everything you decided to communicate email, really exactly so anyway, Apple is apparently uh, it's kind of like a focus group. Most of the survey asked for feedback on screen resolution of the Vision Pro fit and other factors. They asked about guest mode, whether the iPhone app is useful. What accessories you're using?

1:08:13 - Alex Lindsay
I need to use the iPhone app for it. I find guest mode is one of the hardest things for me to put people through.

1:08:18 - Leo Laporte
See, I think you should get in there and answer that survey, yeah, but then users were asked if they owned a meta quest 3, meta quest pro I. I used to have one meta quest headsets, playstation, vr, valve, index or bite dance pro, meta ray-ban, amazon echo frames and the snapchat spectacles I have almost all of those I have two out of the three I probably would have been.

1:08:39 - Alex Lindsay
I probably should have filled out the form, because yeah, I'm telling you, apple wants to know.

1:08:43 - Leo Laporte
Look, yeah. So the question is why is apple uh asking this? Ming chi quo says it's because apple is planning to release its first smart glasses in 2027 mark. German says it's going to be in 2026 yeah, it's.

1:08:59 - Jason Snell
Uh, this is. This is so. Ming chi quo basically laid out the roadmap. He said they're going to do a rev of the vision pro that has an m5 in it instead of an m2. That may just be expediency sake, they may not be making a lot of m2s, um but that they're following that up with two products which are I mean, I know this, we've talked about it a lot the two no-brainers, which is say it with me everybody cheaper and lighter. That those are the things.

And so they want to do a high-end version like this that's cheaper and lighter. And they also want to do a kind of decontented version that maybe has a little bit lower specs but can be even more cheap and even more light. And those are their next steps there couple of equivalents to meta ray bands, one of which has support for, again, siri, which is another part of this that they've got to get right, but also some hand gesture stuff that they'll be able to do with the cameras. And then that's step one, and then step two following that is to do the. To do the other part, which is have a little screen projection thing so you can start doing that, feels real late to me. This is one of those cases where they I think they poo-pooed probably the snap product and said, oh, that's silly. And then meta did uh, did it better, and they missed the boat, which is a shame, because they literally have all the tech to build this product today and they just, they just got distracted.

1:10:18 - Andy Ihnatko
I don't know and not only that, but we've seen how good they can be with a, with designing, like personal style wear. Uh, with the with the apple watch and you hear about. Google announced a couple was it last month about how they require or they've entered into exclusive deals with, like some really top-end uh eyewear design firms. Uh, ray-ban has also. Meta has also announced deals like that. Apple could definitely do that sort of stuff in house. I mean, we've already seen them quote design eyewear because of the Vision Pro, how they basically you pick a pair of synthetic eyeglasses to wear for your avatar. So this is absolutely within their warehouse wheelhouse. The people remember that Apple's a company that convinced the entire world to say, how about you stick these two Popsicle sticks in your ears visibly and walk around and I feel good about myself.

1:11:11 - Jason Snell
That tech is so good and it's largely that tech that would be in the glasses. Airpods are so good, and so I mean I hope it's next year and not two years, like Ming-Chi Kuo says, because really it should be now because that I mean, I hope it's next year and not two years like Ming-Chi Kuo says, because really it should be now Because other than the Siri limitation.

But I like that they're working on that and you can see if it's got gesture support in it, like that's stuff that they've learned in building Vision Pro and I think their goal here is to converge those products eventually. But that's going to take another who knows how many years.

1:11:42 - Alex Lindsay
Think apple's just needs to focus on one thing at a time. They're just not very good at this multi, like I'm going to put out six products. You know, I think the vision pro it lets them figure out a lot of things and they'll get to where they're going. Oftentimes apple starts a little behind and then ends up somewhere.

1:11:57 - Jason Snell
I think I think saying I because I don't, I don't think I think two different groups right. I think people building Vision Pro are doing that. This other product feels like an AirPod to me it's like more like AirPods and then you go down that path and eventually they share knowledge and they build from there. But I like that they're working on both of these. You know, what we've been saying all along in the Vision Pro segment is the whole point of the Vision Pro is not now, it's the future, and as long as they keep kind of driving forward, like the OS is improving and it's pretty good but it keeps getting better, and then on the hardware side they just need to relentlessly push forward to get it to be cheaper and lighter, because those are the two things that really kind of kill it as a product and have more content for it.

1:12:37 - Andy Ihnatko
But if more people could buy it that would take care of that. Yeah, I just, I just feel as though the with smart glasses that's a case of apple leaving money on the table if they don't make that product, because if that's they, that's like again big bag of money.

1:12:51 - Jason Snell
Right there I have so many tech nerd friends who have, who don't like meta and have switched to those ray bans because of the content, the context of it, as inconvenient as it is for so many things they would.

They really like having that experience over wearing airpods in certain circumstances. It's like it's just another option, right, it's kind of like airpods, it's kind of different. It makes sense as another sort of wearable uh, iphone accessory, essentially. So I, I think it's. I think I think they would kill it. That's the shame of it is that I think AirPods are so good and I think some of their other tech is so good that I think I would much rather see them make that product than have it be out there with Meta, because then you're meshed in Meta's ecosystem and like I mean, I think Apple could do a great job.

1:13:39 - Alex Lindsay
I think they have to figure out where does that content go and who watches it and how do they watch it? You know if you're shooting with it. And I think that you get back into, like when I had lunch with somebody with the, it took me halfway through lunch to realize they were wearing the meta glasses. I just wasn't paying much attention, we were just talking and then I was super weirded out by the entire. They hadn't turned it on. They told me they hadn't turned it on. They told me they hadn't turned it on, but super weirded out by the entire lunch that I had with someone with those glasses on, and I was like and I think that that's the thing that Apple still has to figure out with these, when you have cameras in the glasses and you know I mean and and I, you know, still have the, you know original of that right here, yeah, and um, he's holding up his google glass yeah, the um.

1:14:25 - Leo Laporte
The problem you got into is that is that like 15 years old now?

1:14:28 - Alex Lindsay
I mean that's like it is, it's probably 13 years old 13 years old I think 2011 when did it come out 2011? 2012, june 12.

Uh, I I know because I worked on some stuff there yeah so anyway, the uh, um, so the uh, but it was uh, uh. I think that the problem with that camera is just that it kind of weirds people out and I don't. I know people will get thick, thicker skin, but I'm. I had google glass and I'm still weirded out by it, like I don't want to have any conversations with you, I don't want to do those things around around that I don't want to. You could. There's a thousand ways you can record, but there's something about the your glasses serotypically saris having serotipically so I can't say it uh right now, uh so, but but uh, having that there really bugs me, you know I think, that's, that's the issue I think.

1:15:15 - Andy Ihnatko
I think that's what. That's one of the many reasons why I'm looking forward to apple trying this, because you know that they're aware of that and remember the very first eyesight camera. It actually had a built-in privacy iris on it.

1:15:25 - Alex Lindsay
That was well before anybody was even considering well, and the light, keeping the light on the eye on the for a long time, the light on the macbook pro. Uh oh, it was wired.

1:15:33 - Leo Laporte
You could not power the sensor without turning the light on all of those are hard hardwired after a while, yeah yeah, I know we already talked about MotoGP and the black magic, URSA, but YM Cinema Magazine I thank you, Andy, for this link has an entire article about how the URSA Cine Immersive has been used to shoot the MotoGP with pictures.

1:16:00 - Jason Snell
Oh yeah, Look at that the. Canal Plus offensive continues.

1:16:04 - Leo Laporte
Yes, by the way, thank you for saying it right. I thought it was plus like the French word, but I was informed. No, it is plus. Jason was right.

1:16:13 - Jason Snell
I called the Canal Plus a bunch of times and somebody said it's Canal Plus.

1:16:17 - Leo Laporte
I'm like all right, fine, but it's weird because plus is an english word with the s if it needs an umlaut on it.

1:16:23 - Jason Snell
We like to see french, only only accents in french. And how dare you, with your german umlauts, keep that across the border. Alex, you're alex. You're totally getting one of these soon, aren't you?

1:16:36 - Alex Lindsay
I sure hope so and so, uh, yeah, I hope, I hope I have one I don't know, because I'm optimistic about it.

1:16:43 - Jason Snell
Yeah, oh man, I can't wait.

1:16:45 - Leo Laporte
I'm going to go crazy like if I, if I get, if I can get a little man, alex, I keep, I keep imagining you and I will talk, we'll shoot some stuff are you gonna get that little green doohickey that they put it on the top here? What is that? Is that a level? What is?

1:16:57 - Alex Lindsay
that, uh, it's probably a level. The levels are really important because if you, if you're shooting, uh, in spherical and you get a little, oh yeah, the horizon needs to be funny. It's funny to watch because if you do it really slowly we did, we used to do it with 360 as a joke we would slowly turn the camera, like this and we put it in the people tilt you see, people's head go like this.

Yeah, they tilt and what's really funny is if you're on a steadicam, you turn. You turn it 90 degrees really quickly. They'll take their headset off. It's just like immediately, like a little whoa Throw it across the room. Yeah, like it's too much. But you can get people to tilt their heads back and forth and you can get people to do all kinds of things. So the level is really important because you got to make sure that it is. That's why, on your spatial camera on your phone, if you're using a 15 or above, you got to keep it'll. As soon as you get a little out of level, it'll go hey, you gotta come back here.

1:17:44 - Andy Ihnatko
So, uh, so that makes it makes a difference I I keep imagining you, alex, like, remember the, remember the movie, the box, like. Imagine, like a mysterious gentleman coming up to you, coming up knocking on your door with this mahogany box with a big red button on it saying that, alex, if you push this, if you push this, if you push this button, somebody, you will receive this camera immediately, instead of having to wait three months. However, someone you do not know who has an equal or greater need for it will never receive it. Click.

1:18:18 - Leo Laporte
So Canalys? Oh, wait a minute.

1:18:20 - Jason Snell
That's the vision pro segment now, you see, now you know we're done talking the vision pro and I just wanted you to know.

1:18:29 - Leo Laporte
This whole time, alex, I've been wearing the meta ray band glasses.

1:18:33 - Jason Snell
Oh man, without your knowledge, surreptitiously, surreptitiously, yeah, mr surreptitious ray did not want to say that word.

1:18:42 - Leo Laporte
Alex, you're saying it like maple syrup that might be the problem, yeah, exactly how about sneakily sneaky, sneakily sneakily? Um, anyway, there's. By the way, I don't want to say anything, alex, but the next time we mention the ursa, do not take the surreptitious look to the left that you did. It's just, it's making people a little suspicious, don't have it.

1:19:08 - Alex Lindsay
Just a little suspicious, like what's he looking at over there? You'll know, cause the very first day that I have it, there's going to be Instagram pictures, there's going to be little streams, there's going to be like a box opening and you know there won't. There won't be any, uh, yeah.

1:19:24 - Leo Laporte
No opening and you know there won't. There won't be any. Uh yeah, no hiding, no hiding. You could be nda'd, though I guess it's. They're not doing that anymore, it's out right. Yeah, not helping. You're not making people less suspicious, I'm just so no, you could you could, you could have both.

1:19:36 - Alex Lindsay
So so anyway, yeah, but but the um, so the uh, but I, but I think that uh one, if, if I, if I eventually get a hold of the camera, obviously there'll be lots of videos. So I'm pretty excited about it. Look forward to it. I've been waiting for this camera for about 20 years.

1:19:50 - Leo Laporte
I know this is the pipeline, so I'm super excited about it, yay research firm says that macintosh shipments in the first quarter of the year january, february, march grew faster than any other pc brand, a year-on-year growth of almost 29 percent. That is remarkable. Canalis, I guess you know they call around, you know they do the footwork, because apple won't say.

1:20:20 - Alex Lindsay
We have to remember that the max sales are a very small percentage of the overall market, you know. So when they say it grew, it's like it grew from uh, it's a good point, it's not.

1:20:29 - Leo Laporte
It's not absolute volume, it's just the, the percentage growth.

1:20:33 - Jason Snell
Okay yeah, but that's a big. Yeah, but that's a little go ahead.

1:20:38 - Andy Ihnatko
Okay, I'll take it. Uh, so, but it's, it's interesting. It's interesting in context of a couple weeks ago, excuse me. This week people noticed some language in Microsoft talking about the Windows business. That implied that they've lost about. They've got their general PR boilerplate of Windows as the operating system of choice, powering over 1.4 billion desktops, all worldwide. Of choice. Powering over 1.4 billion desktops all worldwide. And now they're saying apple windows is the desk of choice. It's powering over a billion desktops worldwide, implying that they've lost 400 thousand 400 million users, possibly due to attrition to mobile devices and linux and mac yeah, I wouldn't be surprised, because there is some negative stuff about Microsoft Windows lately, I would say so.

1:21:27 - Leo Laporte
If you think ads are bad, on your Apple wallet.

1:21:31 - Jason Snell
And whatever Apple's Mac market share is and think about the iPhone market share in a particular region that difference is an opportunity for Apple to get people to buy Macs. It is a you know, it's not just they work better with iPhones, which the EU doesn't like, but it's also just the Halo brand. Halo of people who try an Apple product and they, like it, are more inclined to buy another product from Apple because it's familiar, because they know the company, because they're going to the store, whatever it is. There's a huge opportunity there for the Mac and there has been. I mean, I think the Mac has largely outpaced PC sales for like a decade now and it's not a huge thing.

1:22:12 - Leo Laporte
But like for those, of us who remember the PC sales have been laggard. That's part of the reason.

1:22:15 - Jason Snell
Yeah, and Mac sales are generally.

Mac sales have been good for the last five years and those of us who remember the darkest days when Mac market share was super tiny and it's not all about market share, but it was super tiny. It's grown a lot Like the Mac is bigger than it's ever been, essentially at that point. It doesn't mean that there isn't room for growth, like it's probably Apple's product with the biggest room for growth. That's not a brand new product that might come out of the gate. I mean there's a lot of room there for the Mac to keep growing.

1:22:45 - Alex Lindsay
And I think we're just seeing the M4 or the M series really maturing into something that I mean. The M4 Mini is an incredible box. I don't know what you know. It's probably the nicest desktop machine you know, pound for pound, that I've ever had. I have a lot of machines, but it's, it's, an incredible little box. That's not they can do everything, but for six hundred dollars, I just can't believe what it produces.

1:23:10 - Leo Laporte
So hey, uh, reverting quickly to the vision pro segment, mav's guy 842 in our club, matt, was in paris and he took these pictures for you, alex, of an Ursa in the wild. They said they were doing some tests for the Vision Pro. I don't see the green bubble level on it, but it's extra.

1:23:34 - Alex Lindsay
It doesn't come with the camera.

1:23:36 - Jason Snell
You know what would make Mac sales go even better? What is what if there was a low costcost mac laptop based on an iphone processor?

1:23:44 - Leo Laporte
that's a really good rumor. Thank you for bringing that up, mr jay, what is now what? If this is ming chi quo at work again, he says there will be a laptop with an a series processor in it yeah, really interesting story how much are you sacrificing if you put an iPhone processor in it?

1:24:02 - Jason Snell
Not that much They've been putting iPhone processors in a lot of places. So here's my short version of my theory, which is Apple. I think with Apple Silicon, it's so good that Apple realizes that their base look the M4 MacBook Air is amazing For $999,. What you get is amazing. And I wonder if Apple's like wow, the $999 Air used to be the worst computer we were willing to build and now we could build something worse than this. I mean, you know lower the bar.

I'm not trying to say lower the bar or make it worse but like our quality standard goes to here at $999. And then they look at like the speed of their iPhone processors and how good that 999 Air is and they say we could probably make a computer that was up to our quality standards for way less than this and maybe we should do that.

1:24:52 - Leo Laporte
Like for what? Five 600 bucks.

1:24:54 - Jason Snell
I mean who knows? Or for 999, when all the prices go up. Who knows right? I mean who knows Could be a response to tariffs also, if this is on a, on a, an older uh chip node, it's a product that they could possibly make the processor in america and maybe even do a little. A little made in the usa, build it's the solid gold trump macbook maybe, but, like so quo says it, it may happen with those a16, a16 pro and which is in the iphone pro right now.

1:25:21 - Leo Laporte
Ming qi guo says it'll be an a18. I mean, yeah, that's what's in the 26s now um, and that's 13 inch screen, ending mass production at the end of this year, early next year, yeah, maybe colorful and the question is. Is it a low-end?

1:25:37 - Jason Snell
macbook air or is it just a macbook? Um, it's not the 12 inch macbook, this would be a a 13-inch MacBook. But like, sorry, I'm talking about this a lot, but I think it's really interesting and exciting. I'll just throw out one other data point, which is Apple keeps selling the M1 Air at Walmart for $699. And eventually they got to stop selling that computer because it's five years old.

But I think it's telling that want that the m1 air is good enough to sell today because it's so good, and I would bet that the a18 pro is better right, yeah, so so really interesting of like they can. They don't need to stop at a 999 air. There is room below it for a very good computer for people who don't do super nerdy stuff like the rest of us like it really is.

1:26:26 - Andy Ihnatko
Doesn't need all the all the io of uh doesn't be thunderbolt probably?

1:26:30 - Alex Lindsay
yeah, I mean there's, there is a uh, there's definitely an opportunity here for apple. I think they look at chromebooks, they look at all these other things that are sitting down down below, and apple has a history of we take a high ground and then we start filling in all that. We slowly start filling in all the way down and I think that them getting to your point, down to a new 699, is a great solution. There are so many people that I know that have airs that could easily do everything they're doing on an ipad right now, um or less and it would be compelling, even competing against the chromebooks which are now, I think, six to 700 buck right $700 range and if they were able to get to $499 for schools or something like that.

1:27:07 - Andy Ihnatko
It starts to get into a much more interesting place.

If Ming-Chi Kuo is correct about ramping up for under this year to announce it early next year, that's in time for the fall 2026 buying season for education, and I don't. I don't. I think we can conclusively say that Apple has lost the bid to get everybody, all school systems, to switch to iPads from, from wherever they're using now. I also don't think that they're going to have a whole lot of success in convincing schools to spend $500 per seat, 600, $700 per seat, as opposed to a $300 Chromebook, $200, $50 Chromebook. That's going to satisfy the legal requirements that they've got state by state for education. However, the idea of creating new seats for kids I'm saying guess what, kid, you can get your own MacBook right now. $1,000 was no, we're not buying you a thousand dollar notebook. That's definitely that's nudging the edge of premium notebook. But high end, medium range notebook, yeah, we'll give it to you for six or $700. That's great.

1:28:12 - Jason Snell
There's some parts of the education market that do spend more money and are not like that, I mean, and Apple, that's where Apple still is and so I think that they've got. They're never going to like blow out Chromebooks, but they could have a maybe more effective argument for those who would rather not go that route. And and yeah, this is all just to bring it back for a moment to Apple Silicon. Like this is all based on Apple Silicon, that Apple's Apple Silicon transition has been so successful in so many ways. But one way we may not have noticed it is just how it's raised the bar and like to take it back to that m4 macbook air, which they now have gotten all the way down with a new look macbook air, back down to 9.99 as a starting price and everybody pretty much agrees like it is such a good deal.

It is such a no-brainer to say if you want a mac, the 9.99 air is such a good deal. It is such a no brainer to say if you want a Mac, the 999 Air is such a great value Most people it's probably enough just on its own that you know. Then you look down and you're like actually we could put a little bit cheaper of a processor in something like this and pull some stuff off of it and go below where Apple's been willing to go with a laptop in a long time. That's really interesting and exciting. I mean, the pause that they would get is do we cannibalize MacBook Air sales? But I think, if that product is, I think you're going to pick up more from people who would otherwise not buy one.

1:29:36 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, and the question is will it be just like a MacBook Air? Once you start going down this path, you can say well, I could make it an iPad that runs a Mac OS, so I can have an, I can have a keyboard or not have a keyboard. I can have a. You know, it doesn't have to be, it could be a Mac. You know that, you know that, that. You know you could get down there and you think about the features.

I mean the hard part with Chromebooks, as a parent of high school students, is that they you know Google took the past and poured concrete into it. You know like it's. It is a. It's a horrible book for any kind of innovation. Like it. It just solves old problems badly, and so so the thing is is that it costs less, and that's great for schools, I guess, but the the ability to generate media and to create things. I mean.

The other market for this is parents like me who buy their kids hardware to make their job easier at school, because my kids don't really build anything on Chromebooks. They deliver them in Chromebooks because they're required to, but that's not where they build their presentations or they build anything else. They build those on a Mac or on an iPad, and so there's a pretty big market out there for parents who can afford it. It's unfortunate that can afford it. That market is still there. So it's not just the school systems buying these things, it's the parents buying real machines to make up for the crappy ones that the schools are giving them.

1:30:51 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, yeah and just to defend Chromebook slightly that kids are going to think, hey, wow, I can make this thing smoke and catch on fire if I stick a paperclip in the USB port. Yay, well, but that's also because they hate them. Wow, I can make this thing smoke and catch on fire.

1:31:03 - Alex Lindsay
If I stick a paperclip in the USB port, yay Well, but that's also because they hate them.

1:31:06 - Andy Ihnatko
You want them to do that with a cheap thing that they can simply swap out. But they also hate Chromebooks.

1:31:13 - Alex Lindsay
And the problem was that Google spent a whole bunch of time talking to teachers and talking to administrators about what they wanted and then built it for them. That's oftentimes not the way to innovate is ask people about what they wanted and then built it for them. That's oftentimes not the way to innovate is ask people about how they've been doing things and figure out how to automate that. It's really figuring out what do they need next and building towards that, and that was the fatal mistake for the Google Classroom, which eventually will be problematic.

It made them a lot of money right now, but that's why it holds back an enormous number of things from happening. It's been pretty catastrophic, it's been pretty catastrophic.

1:31:46 - Andy Ihnatko
It's why the one-to-one is failing. You know, it's because of Google Classroom. What you're saying makes sense, but one of the constant problems in bringing technology to education, bringing any sort of change to education, is people, especially tech people, informing teachers on the front lines. Here is how the here is what the future is going to be, here is how we're going to improve your classroom, as opposed to teachers feeling well, here is what we need, here is what we are required to deliver. So it's a good thing that Google started. Apple and Google really came out from different sides. They created an aspirational product. Apple did, whereas Google said what do you need to satisfy your mandates and to be able to teach your curriculum and what do you need to administrate it? What do you need to be a teacher who's operating a class with everybody on Chromebooks? And they basically delivered what they needed. I don't think it's necessarily a sin to simply say you're hungry, we're going to feed you a meal right now, as opposed to take your idea about what we want to give you in the future.

1:32:48 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, I think, and I think the fundamental what killed Apple, in my opinion, was not so much that their product was too far forward thinking, it's that they didn't handle the one thing. To your point, they didn't handle the one thing, which is fleet management. That's what. When the iPad came out, everyone was on board, everyone wanted to play hard. The price wasn't that big of a deal, but Apple's inability to manage fleets. You know, when it, in the first couple of years, just gave Google this huge opening to just roll in there because they couldn't manage the, they couldn't manage all the iPads Trying to install stuff on them was.

It now works, but they missed that window. And I think Apple has a great education team. But I think that the central design of how they build that stuff they could invest a lot more in it in Cupertino and they'd do better to show people. But I think that it is night and day when you see someone using a lot of the tools that are on an iPad or you know other things like that that they built. It's night and day from a Chromebook. So I agree.

1:33:50 - Andy Ihnatko
I like the idea of a mix you have. You have a lab that has like the good stuff, so you can use all the creative tools, but still everybody getting a balanced meal every single day, even if it's not terribly exciting.

1:34:01 - Alex Lindsay
I just think it's unfortunate. Again, as a parent that can afford to augment my kids' experience, I feel it's just unfortunate for the kids who can't you know that they have something that is pretty much a brick, and you have other students that are able to do much bigger things and much better things than they can you know, because that baseline is so low.

1:34:22 - Leo Laporte
Ah, bigger things and much better things than they can. Um, you know, because that baseline is so low. Ah, could be worse.

1:34:29 - Alex Lindsay
They could be using Windows you'll see a lot of that in schools anymore. I mean, you see it every once in a while well, you know it's funny.

1:34:37 - Leo Laporte
It's been a while, but when my kids were in high school, I was on the board of the high school and they had a one-to-one program, which was, uh, macbooks. And when apple's macbook price went up because I think it was 8.99 at the time uh, they said we're going to buy windows machines. And they did. I don't know what they're doing today, though I feel bad for any kid to ask to well I don't know.

1:34:58 - Andy Ihnatko
I feel bad for the person who has to administrate a class full of Windows machines. That guy left. I gave my administration enough problems with an Apple IIe without any network connection, so I can't imagine how bad it is to administrate high school kids who think that they know more than you do and that they can basically. Hey, I installed Linux in a partition on this without telling you.

1:35:22 - Alex Lindsay
I had a classmate break into Pittsburghittsburgh national bank with their with their.

1:35:25 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, you know, like you know from the school, what could?

1:35:28 - Alex Lindsay
possibly go wrong.

1:35:29 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, yeah, yeah uh, you're watching mac break weekly. Alex lindsay, andy annaco, jason snell, six colors dot com. Thank your uh. Co-host. We're trying. I'm trying to get him on a show but Sunday's not a good day for him. But Mike Hurley was very kind. When Apple did a little retrospective of all the wonderful podcasts over the last 20 years it made such a difference in podcasting and left a couple of my favorites out. Mike Hurley, very kindly on LinkedIn, pointed that out and so just thank him for me. I appreciate his uh his thoughts.

1:36:06 - Jason Snell
He's a new he's a new dad and also eight hours in front of us, and that makes it kind of hard for him to do a late night show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand that's why I do a podcast with him on monday morning, which is not the best time, but it's what we grade podcast.

1:36:20 - Leo Laporte
You could see it at six colorscom slash jason. Thank you, uh, thank you, on we go. Apple has, by the way, updated pixelmator. So apple bought pixelmator, pixelmator pro, which everybody loved, uh, and there was some concern that they might let it languish or perhaps close it down and roll features into photos, maybe not? They have just released a new version of pixelmator pro and they have built in apple intelligence. Well, they build in writing tools and image playground. I don't know, is that how intelligent is? Oh, I don't know. What do you think it's a?

1:37:02 - Alex Lindsay
place for them to experiment with it, and you know it'll be interesting to see whether Pixelmator at some point becomes. Pixelmator eventually becomes something part of the iWork platform, you know, like it literally could be something that they released, they should. Eventually, that becomes part of that and that's a that is a shot over Adobe's bow, like I mean, cause there's a lot of people that you know, if Apple starts putting real money into a real, uh, photo editor I think that they've taken I they've taken photos about as far as it can go, like you know it's. They've added so many features when it comes to correcting and doing all the other things. There's an incredible amount hidden and if you haven't, if people haven't used photos, if people haven't used Photos, you open up Edit. There is a lot of tools in there that you can really fine-tune, an enormous number of things in there, but I think they've gone as far as Photos will go and I think that Pixelmator is the next step.

We've always wondered whether there was always rumors that internal, like that's what we had always heard. But this gives Apple the ability to put out a photo editor that complements what they're doing, and right now, photoshop is really expensive and I think that Infinity now is owned by Canva, so it's a different, you know. So I think it gives Apple the opportunity to have a photo editor and start to add tools. I think these are the early tools that you add, but they could add a lot more when, especially when it comes to dimensionality and so on and so forth, it's going to be really interesting.

1:38:35 - Leo Laporte
Also support for raw from the OM one. Do you still have your own one, andy? Absolutely, really nice camera, the om1.

1:38:43 - Alex Lindsay
Do you still have your om1? Uh, andy, absolutely, really nice camera. I wouldn't be surprised if we see usdz in the next year. You know like, bring your objects in, like you do with keynote, like you do with in other, in other apps, being able to render them directly into the, into the photos yeah, I was.

1:38:57 - Leo Laporte
I'm trying to trying to figure out how I use uh image playground with. It says you can take one of your photos and use image playground on it, but I don't. I don't see I don't know if it's.

1:39:08 - Alex Lindsay
I don't know if that's the deletion tool. That's already in photos and I haven't had a chance to try it, so I but but it could be the. The deletion stuff inside of photos is pretty, pretty awesome clean up? Yeah, I want to get rid of this person. I want to get rid of this thing.

1:39:23 - Jason Snell
I want to get I mean i- should have been there several years ago, because google could do that forever, but it is good.

1:39:29 - Leo Laporte
It is good, okay, so basically what happens is, if you're in the program, you can launch image playground from it and then modify an ugly image and then you can order, and then you could you.

1:39:40 - Alex Lindsay
You can have dorky photos in photometer as well as everywhere else well, what's funny, is I okay?

1:39:44 - Leo Laporte
so here's a dorky photo of of me and uh it so you'd think it would just open this insert, but it doesn't open it in image playground, so I don't know it.

1:39:55 - Jason Snell
Basically, all it did is opened image playground it's just a generator that then outputs it out.

1:40:00 - Leo Laporte
It's not that interesting a feature it's just a standard api call, and I don't know why you'd want to use writing tools in a photo editor. So, oh yeah, that was nice. Good, I put a lighthouse in there, awesome. Wow, thank you, apple, it's a good start the power to be your best I don't know what I would have done without you. Baby steps, it's a separate layer. There's, that's, there's that. Yeah, okay, apple intelligence once again just blowing us all away. How do I, how do I?

1:40:36 - Alex Lindsay
stop this. The hard part is, I think, for this especially, do something photomator is that the ai tools in photoshop are stunningly good. Stunningly good like they are. So it is probably the number one reason that I'm still using photoshop is because I'm going to clean stuff up so quickly, so you know.

1:40:54 - Leo Laporte
So when I bought the project indigo you know the subscription I got lightroom on the iphone and and many of those features are even in the iphone and ipad version of light room.

1:41:02 - Andy Ihnatko
So yeah, and fairly cheap, right and the, and just the, the competition, the, the ability to simply say have to unlearn everything that I've learned about, like masking and selections. Simply say hi, could you just automatically select the face of the third person from the right? Okay, here, here's a look. Here's a selection mask. Anything else I can do for you? Uh, no, that's awesome. Thank you for framing the hair so well too.

1:41:28 - Leo Laporte
It's yeah oh, go ahead. Apple filed a motion to dismiss the uh the uh government's lawsuit against it, claiming that the oj claimed that apple was unlawfully dominating the us smartphone market. Us district judge julian neils and newark denied apple's motion to dismiss the.

1:41:50 - Alex Lindsay
You know summary dismissal, um and summary dismissal, by the way, is like almost never happened it's pro forma, you ask for it.

1:41:57 - Leo Laporte
The judge what's?

1:41:58 - Alex Lindsay
amazing is to see when this court case started and when they've gotten just to the dismissal phase. So if you think about when this is actually going to get decided, probably a couple more years.

1:42:08 - Andy Ihnatko
I just wanted to go. I don't have an opinion about whether Apple is guilty or not guilty about it for antitrust with the DOJ's case. I just want to make it long enough. So there's a discovery process that dumps luscious, luscious internal apple documents into the public record again. It isn't it fun, it's like. It's like it's like easter sunday and seeing this big basket full of green plastic and class plastic glass and internal conversations about the future of a product it's amazing at some point they would.

1:42:38 - Alex Lindsay
They would just have an apple cone of silence where they go in and have these conversations, but evidently not email seems to be okay no business, gotta do business.

1:42:46 - Leo Laporte
Uh, yeah, this is always the real payoff on uh, on these, yeah, court cases, regardless of the outcome is the discovery is always fascinating. Look at apple epic. Yep, uh, I think it is safe to say now, with the additional promotion in the apple wallet, that Apple's film F1 is a success. It's great. The movie cost a quarter of a billion dollars to make, but they made $146 million in the opening weekend.

1:43:16 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I saw a piece about this on Puck News that is, you know, among its things is a media insider kind of thing. Matt Bellamy wrote a piece where he said look, if this was a different kind of movie, it would probably be getting barbs for its fairly it's good, but not great opening in the US, but it performed well internationally. It's probably going to perform really well over time because of the people who want to see it in IMAX or maybe 70 millimeter and get that full-on effect. So it'll probably have legs. And also Apple is playing a different game here. They're going to probably attract a lot of people to Apple TV Plus to watch it there once it drops there.

So it's like we shouldn't go overboard. Like it's not a blowout hit that's going to make a billion dollars probably, but given apple's, I think what matt bellany said was eddie q is not going to be able to say we can't do theatrical releases anymore because of what happened with f1. That's not going to happen now. They did, they did a pretty good job and it seems to have good reviews and some and a good opening and some legs and and is not. Yeah, it it's. We shouldn't go nuts about this like it's good and there are a lot of peripherals that make you think this is going to be a a pretty good result for, and I think it might have been the best one from a streamer.

1:44:39 - Alex Lindsay
I think this might have been, I mean, the best performance in the first week from someone that you knew that this was going to end up in the streaming service for free. That is because that's always been. The hard part is that when you know it's going to come and you're like, why am I paying for it, why am I going to, you know, go see this in the theater. Now I will say that this is, if you are listening to this, you should see it in the theater. I don't say that very often. I don't go to the theater very often, but this one I don't. Unless you're on an Apple vision pro, you're not going to see what was shot. You know, like, it's such a big show, um, and so I uh it it.

But I think that Apple had a lot of reasons to push this hard, but I don't think they can put this kind of energy into every film. So I think that the Apple will probably follow the trajectory of if we see more than you know, next year not this year, but next year if we see more than six features coming from apple, I'd be super surprised. You know, like, and and I think, and most of them will just go to streaming and one or two they'll pick one or two that they're going to do what they did with f1. But as a pr, I've almost never seen other than like uh yeah, I've almost never seen this kind of pr push for a movie from a tech company.

1:45:43 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, absolutely, and the Wall Street Journal had an article that cites sources that Apple is considering actually developing a distribution arm so they can distribute their own pictures, which, if true, would of course, indicate that they're not just simply making stuff for streaming. Jason might have more is more into the business side of show business side, but it's it seems like you're not going to get people like Brad Pitt. They want to be movie stars, they don't want to be streaming stars, and if Apple has the ability to create at least a minor hit, like a summer tentpole release, that means that they get more. They get more desirable content for for Apple TV Plus than simply middle catalog sort of stuff. That's one of my constant disappointments with movies that are designed for streaming, that they really don't go for gold. Oftentimes it's like, even if it's from a name, a director you love, you can tell that it's not the script that they're keeping in their hip pocket to make their greatest movie ever about.

It's a good project that they can get some good talent about. They can test out a new process that they don't want to waste on.

1:46:51 - Alex Lindsay
Well, it's like the Rooster Brothers come back home and go hey, we got a bunch of money, what can we write here? And they'll write it over a shorter period of time. It doesn't go through the to your point. I don't think it's the you definitely don't feel like gray man was the thing that they always wanted to write. You know, and, and so I think that you're you're a hundred percent right that that is, and and I think that Brookheimer is probably the perfect person to talk to about that kind of thing, cause he's pretty business oriented as far as, like, he's not as worried about that that he doesn't have to prove anything at this point. So I think that that, uh, I do think that that Apple getting into his own distribution and potentially even its own theaters, could make sense.

Um, there's oftentimes, you know, there's a lot less control over distribution. Owning the theaters at this point, and so being able to have theaters that produce that project the film in the way that you want them to project the film, so that you know, in la and new york, and netflix does this, netflix has its own, a handful of their own theaters, and amazon has some incredible led theaters in culver city. Um, that those are. There are some great places and it's not like they're trying to sell a lot of tickets, but being able to bring the vips in for a theatrical release makes a big difference when you're talking to them about the next movies it's interesting, f1, only about a third of the first weekend box office was in the us.

Two-thirds of it was international that's because f1 is a lot bigger international bigger yeah like and you know, and I think that most people that I talked to that love f1, definitely enjoyed the film. I mean, they they picked, nitpicked a lot of things that wouldn't have happened, but but they definitely enjoyed it and I think that this is a big play. I think this is all being bundled into Apple trying to figure out, I think, if this movie had been a complete failure on the in the box office. I don't think Apple bids on F1. I think I think if Apple makes a, if we can move the needle in the United States and more people are talking about F1, maybe we should get broadcasting rights at least for the US for F1.

1:48:51 - Leo Laporte
So did you see the studio Seth Rogen's thing on Apple TV? Matt Bellamy heavily featured in there, so much so that I thought you know, maybe he'll give them a free ride on P puck news from now on he's a, a, uh, a plot point in in that show. Yes, and they even say his name like five times and even, I think, spell it at one point because somebody mispronounces it.

1:49:12 - Alex Lindsay
No, it's belloni b-e-l-l-o-n-i it's probably a pet peeve of his that everyone says it wrong. They're like let's put it in.

1:49:19 - Jason Snell
Let's put it in the script well, it's funny because uh two episodes before right, nobody wants to be mad baloney I'm matt baloney, maybe that's what happened.

1:49:28 - Leo Laporte
Uh, two episodes before, ted sarandos, sarandos of netflix was heavily featured and there was some speculation that it was weird that tim cook was not.

1:49:37 - Jason Snell
Apparently, the joke doesn't make any sense if it's tim cook it.

1:49:40 - Leo Laporte
It only makes sense if it's Ted Sarandos, Because yeah, anyway, baloney says Apple has exactly zero wide theatrical releases planned after F1.

1:49:51 - Jason Snell
Yeah, they have been very successful doing TV shows and they have not been successful doing movies and this will be. Yeah, I think they made some decisions. Like Andy was saying, a lot of mid movies out there. I think the idea of spending a little less money on some nice small movies and then occasionally putting your chips in for something that you think is really legitimately going to be big but they're just streaming in general it's not just Apple has been full of a lot of mid movies that cost too much, are not that good and are something that's out of the out of the trunk of the writers and the directors and all of that and like that's not a business they should be in.

1:50:28 - Alex Lindsay
And really where the industry is going right now is, if you're not making destination content, there's so much content out there. If you're not making must see TV, uh, you're competing with YouTube. Like, no one's filling their time with, oh, I'll just go watch a random movie. You know, no one's watching random movies anymore to fill their time. They're watching YouTube to fill their time, and so the thing. Or some reality show or something like that, but it's not. But so the problem is, is that building something that if you're not going to go all the way, don't bother? I was talking to someone about it, where that that distance between the low end and the high end is massive, you know apple.

1:51:05 - Leo Laporte
Apple does have a lot of stuff on the slate, but but none of it's really going to be high, big theatrical spike lee's highest to lowest. Yeah, uh, it's coming up that with denzel washington, a smaller romantic comedy all of you will debut exclusively on apple tv in late september. Nothing else dated for 2026, including a movie that's done John Cena in Matchbox, an adaptation of the Mattel Cars.

1:51:32 - Alex Lindsay
Oh yeah.

1:51:33 - Leo Laporte
I can't wait for the Kool-Aid movie.

1:51:35 - Jason Snell
Speaking of the studio.

1:51:38 - Alex Lindsay
Mayday, a Ryan Reynolds survivalist thriller and Peanuts animated film A lot of these were most likely greenlit before they made the decision like, hey, we shouldn't be playing this game anymore. And so they're already in. You got to remember. What's coming out now or this year was in pre-production three or four years ago, and so it's. I think that the and you can't tell Ryan Reynolds that you're not going to release his movie. You know that kind of thing who's going to call him?

1:52:04 - Leo Laporte
who's going to get seth rogan to call him? Seth can do it. Yeah, fountain of youth. Was god awful, the natalie portman, john krasinski movie which they did not put in the theaters, and it's a good thing well, I and putting the theater is a big commitment.

1:52:18 - Alex Lindsay
Like it is so expensive to put things into theaters that you know to put stuff in apple wallet to promote people to show up you know everything else.

I think that, again, I think that the f1 has a lot to do with potential broadcast rights and and the fact that that, uh, there was a lot of a lot of movement there, you know, and I think that that's the um, but I don't think that we're going to see very many releases from Apple like that. I think maybe if we see one a year I'll be impressed, but I think what you're also seeing is the other direction. Murderbot is 22 minutes long.

And it's awesome, you know, and it's really good, but it's really short and you know what it has. The same impact on the revenue. So a 22-minute show has the same impact on the revenue.

1:52:59 - Leo Laporte
That's true People, so a 22 minute show, you know, has the same impact. That's true.

1:53:02 - Jason Snell
People subscribe to watch the show 10 weeks of drops too, it'll binge really well, but it's also for now it's a 10 week drop and that means that there's always something new coming on Apple TV every week and that I was going to mention Murderbot earlier. Like there's a new model for a lot of stuff. Unless you can do that spectacular thing that Alex is talking about, there are better ways to spend your money and Apple and the guys who run Apple Studio who came over from Sony, they have done a good job with their TV stuff. So keep it up and calculating out stuff like Murderbot that is going to drop every week. Murderbot will be an excellent binge because those episodes are so short and they all end on great cliffhangers and it's funny and it'll be great like that. But also it's giving them 10 weeks of coverage where there's a new drop every week and I think you can see something that's not never ending too.

1:53:48 - Alex Lindsay
I mean, I think that, like penny dreadful, which was three seasons long on show, on showtime, one of the best you know just like we're gonna end it like there's, there's not an open-ended, like oh, we ran out of things. It was like it had a beginning and an end, but it had you waiting every year for another six episodes. Not that I'm bitter six, six uh, what else?

1:54:13 - Leo Laporte
any other stories before we get to your picks of the week? Uh, swift is going to move, is going to start supporting android app development, which is kind of interesting. It's thing is swift Swift isn't really just Apple's, it's an open source project as well, so it's not necessarily that Apple is saying, oh, we've got to make sure that we develop for Android.

1:54:37 - Andy Ihnatko
But it's good for skill portability.

1:54:39 - Leo Laporte
Yeah.

1:54:40 - Andy Ihnatko
Like how much time?

1:54:42 - Leo Laporte
Something Apple's not interested in, though, why would apple want people to develop for android?

1:54:46 - Andy Ihnatko
but they want people to develop for, to develop using swift, and that's going to encourage more people to say well they go the other way.

1:54:52 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, well, if I'm going to spend time learning a new language, I want to make sure the these skills are going to be portable, for not just stuff I'm writing for apple we look at the expense of the programmers, it It'd be great if a lot of there's a lot more of them and they're writing in the, in the platform that you'd prefer them in, as opposed. I mean, like right now you talk about to programmers what is their favorite platform to write in? A lot of them will say Python. And what is the? What is the most documented, with the best training and the best support? Python, you know, and so, and so I think that's you know. That's part of it, although it'll be really interesting to see you know.

For me, I'm writing when I write mac apps. Now, I don't need to know that. I mean, I just say I want to write this in swift, like I don't you know, because I want to, and it doesn't you know. So that'll be an interesting thing, as ai takes over or does a lot more of the basic app development, whether it matters what language you're writing in.

1:55:45 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, let's take a break and your picks of the week coming up. Next You're watching MacBreak Weekly Andy Ihnatko, Alex Lindsay, Jason Snell. I hope you enjoy this show. If you do, I hope you'll consider joining Club Twit. It's how we keep this network on the air.

25% of our operating expenses come from your club. Membership doesn't go into my pocket, or at least his pocket. Goes into the pockets of all the people who make our shows possible, and you're one of those people making our shows possible. You get ad free versions of all of our shows, access to our club twit discord. All the special programming we do in the discord, including apple keynotes we do those in the Discord because we don't want to get taken down Other keynotes like Google IO and Microsoft's keynotes. We also do special programming, like last week's music show, which was great, with Mazzy's music from YouTube and Stephen Witt, who wrote a book about the advent of digital music and iTunes. It was just great. That was on Friday. If you didn't see the live version, you're going to have to wait until it comes out in a month, but Apple Club members can actually watch it on our TWiT+ feed. All of that special content goes out on the TWiT+ feed $10 a month, $120 a year.

Is there still a two-week trial? I'm not sure. Check, there is week trial. I'm not sure. Yeah, there is. Yep, twit.tv/clubtwit free two week trial. Also, memberships plans for businesses and for families and thanks in advance really makes a big difference to us. twit.tv/clubtwit. I'm gonna make this my pick just because I wanna piss people off. How about that? It was one of the stories you're gonna do. But, uh, there is a new app in the app store, uh, called ice block. It's an iPhone app that'll alert you to nearby sightings of uh, trump's gestapo, also known as ice. Um, interesting, cnn uh did a piece on it, which caused the administration, uh, pam bondy, the attorney general, to say we're going to investigate the people who created this app. Um, okay, okay, joshua aaron created it. In case you didn't know, pam, uh, it is available in your store and, um, perhaps not a bad idea if you, if you're worried about ice knocking on your door ice block yeah, that's.

1:58:18 - Andy Ihnatko
That's kind of like what I was thinking about when we were talking about, like Apple is often going to be confronted with no-win situations where the CNN report came out just last night. The app's been around for a few weeks now, but the CNN report just came out last night, and so the administration is being asked for lots and lots of reactions and, of course, they're very upset about it. So what happens if Apple gets put under pressure to remove this completely?

1:58:44 - Leo Laporte
illegal app.

1:58:45 - Andy Ihnatko
Again, I do not know what they could, would or should do, because there is no way you win this scenario without suffering a huge, huge loss.

1:58:55 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, stay informed about reported ICE sightings within five miles of your current location. Look, if you can have have you know next door and neighborhood on your phone, you could warning you about suspicious people of color in your neighborhood. Certainly you can have this. Um ice block. A lot, a lot of good reviews. Uh, see something, say something. Uh, it is number one right now in social networking.

Not not bad, probably because of the cnn report yesterday all right before it gets taken down yeah, I mean ice isn't going to come after me, but I do have some people working on my house right now. I don't know mr jason snell, who has carefully stayed out of that conversation. What's your pick of the week?

1:59:41 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I don't know. My pick of the week is. It's kind of a twofer. Mac Whisper is a very nice app that's free.

1:59:48 - Leo Laporte
You've recommended this before right.

1:59:51 - Jason Snell
Yeah, it transcribes audio and turns it into text, which is very nice. Their pro versions, which cost about $70, added support for the NVIDIA parakeet model of speech to text which is exceedingly fast. It's faster even than the apple to new apple, uh, speech to text framework that they're adding in the 26 releases. Um, and so you can do that, or you can. Actually, somebody has built an mlx version, mlx being basically apple silicon version of parakeet.

2:00:25 - Leo Laporte
If you'll see, I was wondering because you don't have nvidia, so it doesn't require nvidia hardware to run yeah, it doesn't.

2:00:31 - Jason Snell
they built. They built a model more recently than whisper, which is the open ai model and it's out there and it's available. And uh, yeah, you can, you can run it on apple silicon and and, yeah, it runs faster. The speed is amazing. It's like 90X or something. When I tested it it was an absolutely ludicrous speed and I've got the numbers here. So I used Whisper on my and this is on an M4 Pro MacBook Pro. Whisper was 31X the original recording. Apple's new thing was 74X the original recording, and Parakeet 97X 97 times the runtime. So, yeah, you take an hour and a half audio file and you will get a complete transcript in a minute. And so, yeah, yeah, if you're comfortable with github and uh python, you can get this running using like pip in python in your command line so you don't have to use mac whisper, just makes it easier.

What mac whisper does is, yeah, is put it in an app with an interface. And they've got a um, a model where if you uh, you know, if you have a podcast audio with both speakers on separate audio tracks, you can put them both in and it interleaves them and makes something that says who said what? That works okay, it's not great, it's okay. But if you just want the pure power of it, you can get that for free by going to the Parakeet mlx project. Uh, if you just search for parakeet mlx, you will find it, and I didn't know about this model until mac whisper added it. And wow, it's fast, it's um. I would say it's also a little bit better than apple's model in terms of punctuation.

2:02:16 - Leo Laporte
Oh, that's the question. Yeah, how good is the speech recognition?

2:02:18 - Jason Snell
yeah, it's, it's. It's a little bit. I think maybe it's context windows a little broader, so I think it's a little bit. I think maybe its context window is a little broader, so I think it's a little bit better. It's not as good as the V3 Turbo of Whisper in terms of accuracy, but it's good and it's a little bit better than Apple's. And the thing there is just the context window. The wider it is, the more it can say oh well, that sound that person made in context of everything around it. They must have meant this right. It allows you to be more accurate by understanding what people are saying and it does a little bit better job with punctuation, like accurately reflecting. But if you're not comfortable using command line tools to do this, that's the great thing about Mac Whisperer. It's just wrapped in an app and you have to pay for the pro version but you'll get all of that. But if you're, if you don't need that, you can get it straight up from the MLX uh project. That's on GitHub.

2:03:11 - Leo Laporte
And I'm running it on a hugging face so you can try it on hugging faces, you can.

2:03:13 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I mean, but it is like I mean again the 100x almost on a, that's on an m4 pro, right so, or m4 max, so it's going to be slower than that another but like appreciably faster than whisper uh, v3 turbo, which is the higher quality whisper setting. So it's pretty cool. We're getting some final, finally, some forward movement on the whole speech text thing. If you're generating youtube captions, if you're generating podcast transcripts or even just searchable backlog of a podcast. I cranked through a whole bunch of my old podcasts. It's just yeah, it's real fast and I recommend it. It's cool.

2:03:50 - Leo Laporte
And I've already transcribed your entire review almost in real time it looks pretty good.

2:03:58 - Jason Snell
That's also why you're the king. Look at that. Look at that. Looks pretty good, pretty good, yeah, mac, why you're the king.

2:04:01 - Leo Laporte
Look at that. Look at that. Looks pretty good, pretty good. Yeah, mac Whisper is fantastic. If you do a lot of transcription, it'd certainly be worth paying for, although you have to pay for the higher level.

2:04:09 - Jason Snell
Yeah, and if you don't want to pay and you're technical, you can just use command line to do. It Works great, or hugging face. I wrote a shortcut that I, that I I can click, I can using shortcuts. Uh, you can right click on a file and say do this, and, like you, you just kind of do the shell script stuff in there and the command line stuff and it just does it.

2:04:29 - Leo Laporte
So a lot of ways to to skin this cat have you used, speaking of shortcuts, uh, the new, uh ai thing that yeah dan moran and I wrote about that on Six Colors last week.

2:04:40 - Jason Snell
We both used it for different tasks. I used it to generate a thing where when I'm uploading a file to my website to Six Colors, it now uses Apple's private cloud compute to generate the alt text for that image. So I don't have to write alt text. It's not always perfect, but I see it so I can edit it, but it gives me a starting point. That's really really nice.

And then Dan built a system where, if he gets an invoice in, it actually looks at the PDF, figures out what the fee is, adds it to a spreadsheet and files it in the appropriate folder, which is like that's pretty awesome Because, again, without the AI step, it's very hard to build a piece of code that will be flexible enough to look at any PDF invoice and figure out what the fee is right. Like that's super squishy and that's what AI stuff is good for. So he's using it that way and it's a good start. Private Cloud Compute's got some advantages. It would be really nice if you could process images locally, but Apple's local model currently doesn't let you attach an image, so I use private cloud compute and it works great.

2:05:47 - Leo Laporte
the uh article is experimenting with apple's ai models inside shortcuts at sixcolors.com by six colors staff yeah, because we don't.

2:05:55 - Jason Snell
We haven't set up a joint byline in our wordpress. There's a plugin for that? Of course there is, but I have to change my templates so we just market as staff and then have little taglines for my piece and Dan's piece.

2:06:05 - Leo Laporte
You and Dan are staff. We're on the staff, Andy and our co-pick of the week.

2:06:11 - Andy Ihnatko
What an interesting coincidence. A couple weeks ago we were talking about digital comic books and how the Ever since Comixology was bought by Kindle, bought by Amazon, and now you can't use the Comixology app. You have to use that terrible Kindle app. Oh, isn't that terrible. That exact same day, the two founders of Comixology apparently their no-compete with Amazon ended a few weeks ago because they are launching a brand new digital comics platform called Neon Ichiban N-E-O-N-I-C-H-I-b-a-n.

Uh, and it's not open yet, but you can sign up for the, for the waitlist at neonichuboncom and they, according to what you see on the site, they've got marvel, they've got dc, they've got like all the major players, wow and I've I mean I've I've known these guys for for quite a while since, again, since the launch days of Comixology they absolutely get comics. So I'm really, really, really keen to see how good this app is, because if it is, I'm not necessarily terribly pleased about having to buy into another DRM platform, but if you can sell me comics in a form that I can actually read with a reader, that lets me organize them and access them and is again built for people who read comics, not for people who were reading books 15 years ago and just simply shoehorned in a comics reader there. Okay, they'll get my money. I'd much rather they succeed.

2:07:36 - Jason Snell
Yeah, the David Steinberger I'll co-sign this David Steinberger and Chip Mosher who did the original comiXology. They did great work. Yeah, then sold it to amazon and and went off and did some other things. Um, they, they did like a weird nft comic thing that I did called distillery that, but clearly like they were biding their time. But this is they, get it they get it, you guys, which publishers should?

2:07:59 - Leo Laporte
so I got DC because I'm a Superman Batman kind of guy.

2:08:03 - Jason Snell
I mean, I put down Marvel and Image and, I don't know, IDW and Boom probably. You know it doesn't matter, they're just it's a survey. Yeah, they're trying to gauge who their audience is there.

2:08:15 - Alex Lindsay
But like those guys, those guys are really good, that's kind of nice.

2:08:27 - Andy Ihnatko
That's really cool that they're coming back into this space, because they they did a great job with the comiXology in the early days and and can? There shouldn't be a, a monopoly on an entire art form. Uh, it's either kindle, kindle, or you have to know the the individual publisher and hope that they actually are selling pdfs or cbz's. Uh, yeah, I'm glad to see like two. You don't have this. If you want, if you want to see the X-Men, you don't necessarily have to have to absolutely go to Amazon.

2:08:46 - Jason Snell
As a comic, as a comic collector. I like this as a creator of stuff. If I was a publisher, I would so hate the stranglehold that Amazon has over the comics digital distribution of comics, and they've got their own things too but like to have another storefront to compete with amazon is a really good thing.

2:09:11 - Leo Laporte
Very, I completely agree, 100 percent.

2:09:12 - Alex Lindsay
Uh, all right, that leaves but one, mr uh, alex lindsey, your pick of the week so I, finally, I I'm very fascinated by the whole glucose monitoring that people have heard, and you know it's not on, it's not on the watch, who knows when it'll come on the watch. But I'm very curious, like how it affects behavior and so. But you have to get a. Unless you're diabetic, you have to. You have to, uh, get a. You have to get a prescription to to do it, or so I thought. No, you don't.

I have a dexcom stello and I have a watch complication so I can see my blood sugar right at all times and and I, so I got the lingo which is I don't know it's about, they're all the same, yeah, 50 bucks, and 50 bucks for two weeks. Uh, you put it. Yeah, this is 100 bucks a month, exactly, yeah, exactly, and, and I put it, I put it on, and I was just curious, like, will this actually affect how I eat?

and the answer is yeah, 100 like oh yeah the food industry has no idea what's about to hit them, when, when somebody's, when the if the apple watch hits it. Because you, you see these, you know you just get curious, you like eat something and then you come back a half an hour later and look at it, on on on the app, and you go, oh, what's going on here? And you know, and anything that goes over the top bar that they give you is kind of like, well, I'm not gonna eat that again. Like you know it's, you know and and and so it's an interesting. But it's if you're interested in doing it and you've been kind of caught up in trying to figure out where to get it. I mean I just literally bought it on Amazon, plugged into the back of my you know, downloaded an app in a second and and was getting data. You know, a couple of minutes I wear one uh, I wear one right now.

I was concerned that it would hurt. You can't even feel it. You know you just go punk, yeah I was like I was waiting. I was kind of like waiting for like this is gonna be, doesn't hurt when you look at it, it's a big needle.

Yeah, you go, you go, that's that's gotta feel, it's gotta feel like something. It doesn't. I swim in it, I work out in it, I on, and, um, uh, and it's been, it's been really fun. I, I I will say more than anything else because, again, my, my, my levels are pretty normal Um, it's just, I find it to be fascinating to watch how your body's reacting to the food that you're eating.

Yeah, you get a graph and you can see, yeah, you see the little graph stuff. It's really useful, yeah. So, anyway, and you do learn very quickly, you start. What's happening for me is that I very quickly tie in because I'm looking at it after meals, like I kind of put in what meal I ate, you know, because it'll give you, it'll say hey, what happened here? You know, like you get this little highlight over your graph, like was there an? What did you do something here and did you eat something like berries or whatever? It is right, and anyway, I find it fascinating. If you're interested in doing that, it's not, I don't think I'll do it, I'm not planning to do it forever. I kind of decided I'm going to do it for a couple months and it'll give me enough data in my head to understand what I'm looking at and what I and that you know to see the skyrocket that Little Caesars has on my oh man, I don't do that, no more it doesn't taste sweet but man your blood sugar.

2:12:08 - Leo Laporte
So abbott makes the lingo, uh, dexcom makes the stilo. I think they're probably a number of different and they all look the same.

2:12:14 - Alex Lindsay
When you look at the applicator you kind of imagine them all coming out of the same chinese factory.

2:12:18 - Leo Laporte
You know like they're what's changed is it used to be nfc, so you would have to tap your phone to your arm, and now it's continuous and it just does it all the time, so you always know I will say it does affect your your phone battery life, like I definitely noticed oh yeah, in my phone battery life, because oh yeah, talking to it. Oh yeah, yeah, but it's it's cool.

2:12:36 - Alex Lindsay
It's cool, it's fun I agree 100.

2:12:38 - Leo Laporte
Of course I'm a type 2 diabetic, so I kind of has to.

2:12:40 - Alex Lindsay
I I was the last time I was in in to have something looked at, they said you're pre-diabetic. Yeah, that's when you should do it. Now's the time.

2:12:48 - Leo Laporte
So I was like, okay, I'm now's the time yeah, pay attention to good job. Yeah, the other thing is take a walk after those carb rich meals. It really helps.

2:12:57 - Alex Lindsay
Yes, when I went in the future after it, since, like since getting the sensor in the few times that I have a carpet exactly it really like you're just kind of good.

It's like oh well, again, it's gonna, it's gonna tell on me. I do think and again, part of it was this like what will happen to when? Eventually, when apple figures out how to do this on a watch, I think it'll have a bigger impact on the food industry than atkins, you, you know like it will, because it's not that everyone will pay attention to it, but I think a certain number of people are going to pay attention to it. You know, and that number, that small percentage of of watch users that do it, will you know I'd be selling stock when I, you know, when, that if Apple releases a watch with it, yeah, Apple releases a watch with it.

2:13:41 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, I think it's harder to do than that sounds. To be honest with you.

2:13:44 - Alex Lindsay
I think it's really hard to do. This puts a filament in your arm. I think it's really hard to do, and I think that's why Apple's trying to do it is because if they can figure it out, it has a pretty big it's hard. Apple likes to do things that are hard because it's also hard for other people to make it too.

2:14:02 - Leo Laporte
True things that are hard because it's hard also hard for other people to make it too. True. True that. Thank you, alex lindsey. Office hoursglobal. That's the place to go every morning. Alex is there streaming on youtube at office hours global and if you want to see a little um music.

2:14:15 - Alex Lindsay
Uh, we had another I put up. We put up another stream. I just made it public because we were. I just clipped off some front stuff but the we had a Oakland band named Perhapsy and they were in the Airship Laboratories, which is in Richmond, and we've been kind of experimenting. So it's it's a pretty rough edit. We're going to put together a cleaner edit with better sounds and everything else. But if you just want to see us playing around in a studio, in a music studio recording, you can. It should be pretty close to the beginning of of videos and I don't have it right in front of me here, but, uh, you can look at it. It's, I think it's um, uh, it's under perhaps you're under swell.

Swell is the audio team that that we worked with there and, uh, we're going to keep on doing these. The next one's on the 26th, I think. So we're working with airship laboratories to figure out ways to stream. At first we're just trying to figure out how to stream from a studio, but the goal is, of course, very high-end versions of streaming. It's, you know, whether it's spatial or HDR 5.1, those are all things we're slowly adding to the pipeline. So you'll see more of that added on the 26th of July and then more through August. But by September we should be producing some pretty high quality stuff. But if you want to see the early days of that, the first one was with my daughter's band with Joystick Failure, and this one is the next one. So that's what we're on.

2:15:37 - Leo Laporte
Swell, Perhaps he Live there they are. What kind of music is it?

2:15:42 - Alex Lindsay
Oh, it's very eerie, I guess I would say eerie Really, you know kind of heartfelt eerie, moody.

2:15:51 - Leo Laporte
Nice.

2:15:51 - Alex Lindsay
So it was anyway it's a, but really good, Really good, Good quality video too. Look at that.

2:15:58 - Leo Laporte
Is that the FX3 you're shooting with?

2:15:59 - Alex Lindsay
No, these are Blackmagic 12Ks. Nice, look at that. Is that the fx3 version? Uh, these are. No, these are black magic 12ks. Nice, this was. Yes, we had a, I think, three black magic 12ks and uh and a 6k doing one of the wide shots and then we captured all of that in log. So we're gonna re-edit it, they're gonna do some work on some of the, the audio, and then we're gonna re-edit it again to, uh, push it a little even harder than what we had there nice.

2:16:19 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, thank you, alex. Andy, and not coat, did it, did it not quite yet, but, uh, let's, let's.

2:16:26 - Andy Ihnatko
I want to. I want to tail back to remember how we're talking you're talking about. Hey, I want to see that video of george martin and yes, did you find it that? No, uh, actually it's in your inbox right now. As a beta tester, I wrote oh, I wrote and posted a 3,000 word piece about God only knows.

2:16:43 - Jason Snell
That's where I heard about it.

2:16:45 - Andy Ihnatko
It was from Andy's blog it's a secret.

2:16:47 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, a secret blog.

2:16:50 - Andy Ihnatko
Can I just say this is one of the reasons why things are like it keeps creeping back, because every time I sit down to write something, oh, I can knock this out about 400 words. I can knock this out about 400 words One week later, like I've had to delete a 2000 word, like, okay, I think differently about, I have different opinions now than I did when I started this. I'm going to start rewriting this all over again, but yeah, basically I'm just making sure that there's plenty to read when she gets there. So imminent, imminent, but please, but please, please, read that piece, cause I'm I'm looking forward to seeing that, as I'm very proud, I'm very proud of it once it was done. But I was also aware of okay, andy, how much, how many hours did you spend on that and how many other things could you have written during that time?

2:17:31 - Leo Laporte
let's let's have that. Never think about that. Let's have an old staff and just.

2:17:35 - Andy Ihnatko
We're proud of this, we're happy with this. Let's just make sure we stay on our posting schedule, shall we?

2:17:42 - Leo Laporte
oh, let's just make sure we stay on our posting schedule, shall we? Oh, come on, don't become one of those. No, you can't be a bean counter and a creative.

2:17:48 - Andy Ihnatko
You gotta pick one, pick a lane uh well, jason didn't pick a lane, he did pretty well, that's true. Actually, he he left screaming, but still, I picked.

2:17:57 - Jason Snell
I picked so many lanes, oh my god. So many, all the lanes yes, jason snell, sixcolors.com.

2:18:04 - Leo Laporte
And if you want to see all the lanes he's riding, go to sixcolors.com. Slash jason, yes, please. You will find a whole bunch of shows, including the one we mentioned. Mike hurley and jason do upgrade every monday. There's the six colors show there's downstream. Yeah, julia's back right?

2:18:24 - Jason Snell
no, she speaking of Matt Bellany, they decided that they want to put her on all their podcasts and she is a full time employee there, so they stole her back.

I'm using Joe Dallian, who is great, from Vulture, and occasionally Will Carroll, who was one of the founders of Baseball Perspectives, talking about sports streaming, and so that's going on. So, yeah, people can check that out and the total party kill. Our actual play dnd podcast at the incomparable just started a new storyline today. That is one of my favorites, actually. We had a lot of fun playing it. So if people want to listen to nerds playing dnd on the internet, there's lots of podcasts.

2:18:56 - Leo Laporte
Ours is one of them you have to go to the incomparable mother, mothership, to find that.

2:19:01 - Jason Snell
Just go to the incomparable.com and you'll see total party killer.

2:19:04 - Leo Laporte
Awesome Total party kill. Yes, along with the agents of smooch Dr.

2:19:11 - Jason Snell
Who flashcast, we got lots Free.

2:19:13 - Leo Laporte
The whole network. You got some good names here, holy moly.

2:19:19 - Alex Lindsay
I think what I need to do, though, is I need to come and sit while you guys are doing those and sit in mid-journey and just produce scenes Like the scenes of the. That's how I got into computer programming was trying to write software that would draw characters from the Dungeon Master's Guide, yeah so that's what got me into programming. Anyway, we'll see. Thank you, Jason.

2:19:41 - Leo Laporte
Thank you, Andy, thank you, Alex, thanks to our Club TWIT members who made this show possible, thanks to all of you who listen. We do MacBreak Weekly every Tuesday, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 1800 UTC. We stream it live in eight different places. Of course, for the club members, we stream in the discord behind the velvet rope, if you. If you know, you know otherwise. You can watch, everybody can on Youtube, TikTok, x.com, Twitch, Facebook LinkedIn and Kick uh, so watch wherever you feel like it. Uh, we watch the chat from all of those places. Great to have all of you there.

After the fact, on demand versions of the show available at the website twit.tv/mbw. There's a link there to our YouTube channel. That's good to know about the video's there, and you can use it to share clips with friends. Good way to spread the word about MacBreak Weekly, and we appreciate it when you do that. Of course, the best way, as a regular, to listen to the show subscribe in your favorite podcast player, because then you don't even have to think about it. You'll get the audio or video, or both, automatically the minute the show is over. By the way, if you do that, please leave us a nice review, will you Reviews make a big difference in our total audience? Maybe in another 20 years, apple will feature us as one of the original shows in the podcast sphere. Thank you, everybody for watching. We'll see you next time and, as I have always said, it's my sad and solemn duty to tell you now to get back to work because break time is over. Bye-bye.

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