MacBreak Weekly 977 Transcript

Please be advised that this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word-for-word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

00:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's time for MacBreak Weekly. Andy, alex and Jason are here. Yeah, it's a week after WWDC and we have thoughts, lots of thoughts, and, of course, the Apple executives have been going around stimulating those talks. We'll talk about the kind of the hangover of WWDC and I have a theory that Apple software is on a roll. We'll talk about it next on MacBreak Weekly Podcasts you love From people you trust. This is Twit. This is MacBreak Weekly episode 977, recorded Tuesday, june 17th 2025. A slab of ham on a box, tuesday, june 17th 2025. A slab of ham on a box. It's time for MacBreak Weekly, the show we cover the latest news from Apple. Ladies and gentlemen, I introduce you to our bachelors for this week's episode of MacBreak Weekly. No, it's not the dating game. Alex Lindsay is here from officehoursglobal. Hello, alex, hello, hello. I will use my Bob Eubanks voice, though. Also here, andy inotko, from uh inotkocom.

01:09 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Hello, andrew I think, a long walk along the beach and then we would rake for clams and then roast the clams at a clam bake on the beach, and I'd get you home early and hope for a second date later you know what made me think of it is you and I both watched that Pee Wee Herman documentary, yes, and early in his career he entered the match game as Pee Wee Herman and won.

01:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, got picked. That was pretty unexpected, shall I say. Also here, jason Snell SixColorscom.

01:42 - Jason Snell (Host)
Hello, all Colors present and accounted for.

01:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So how was F11? Did you enjoy it? I?

01:48 - Jason Snell (Host)
went to the daring fireball instead. Oh, because I I wanted to support the independent tech media and so I went to the non-sanctioned apple event.

01:58 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Uh, good for you uh had I known that that was an option when you saw like a six color x on the door and rough paint they, they hilariously marked it as optional on our uh, on our briefing schedule optional optional really.

02:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Uh, only reason, I know, is because, uh, max stories, uh had a had a piece of mention. He kind of a humble brag. You know, when I was in the steve jobs theater watching f1, yeah, it was fine leather seats, uh, but we're not going to start with that. No, ladies and gentlemen, I should have warned uh, because we have a fill-in producer, john ashley's, off getting married. Uh, anthony nielsen, I should have warned him. It's time for the vision pro segment nobody thought that would happen.

02:55 - Jason Snell (Host)
I don't know why you're doing this up at the top of the show, leo. What is happening, are you?

02:59 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
okay, our energy is all right I'm losing my marbles.

03:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's why, no, I just thought I'd. I'd just thought I'd throw you a bone.

03:07 - Jason Snell (Host)
Oh boy, Check out the format every now and then Every Netflix news show does it.

03:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's great. No, there's news. In fact, you've been embargoed, mr Snell, for two freaking weeks. Yeah.

03:19 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, so I mean there's news. I assume that you spent most of the time last week talking about Vision OS 26 and all of the amazing features it was such a hot topic? No, because I do think that that is. How do you scroll with your eyes? Can you explain? I have not yet successfully scrolled with my eyes. I don't know how that works. I've seen the little alert that says you should scroll with your eyes, but I can't comment on that.

03:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, you did it, Anthony did it. Oh good, How'd you do it?

03:48 - Anthony Nielsen (None)
If you have the, you know this is your window. You just kind of like look towards the bottom of the edge and then the whole thing kind of shifts.

03:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So if you look at the top it'll go the other way.

03:56 - Anthony Nielsen (None)
Yeah, but it's kind of weird because, like you, have to look at the edge and all of a sudden, in order to go down weird.

04:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Anyway, that's not what we're here to talk about yeah, uh, so the uh. By the way, jason was on twit on sunday and turned it into an apple gab fest I did not, we, we I mean I.

04:17 - Jason Snell (Host)
I watched in horror as we added a whole second segment about apple stuff.

04:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We spent the first half hour talking about the I blame the former editor-in-chief of PC World, Harry McCracken, for that one. Turns out, everybody on the panel had been at WWDC.

04:33 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, it was. I mean, yeah, you had it's not just, it's like you had Jason Heiner from ZDNet and Harry from Fast Company and used to be the editor at PC World. So it was not Mac guys, it was not Apple guys dragging you to WWDC, but it was sort of the big news of the week, all right. So here's the thing, and this is a lead-in for Alex's excitement, although he hasn't seen it, but I got to see.

04:53
So Canal Plus, which is a media company in France, they made an announcement last week that they are working on a documentary about, uh, french motorcycle racer johan zarco at the french grand prix. If you click through on that, I mean we're showing my link to my story. But they've got a whole like is there a whole thing here? There's a whole press uh release. There's not a lot about this. That canal plus announced a lot of things. They announced it this week but, um, it is uh, they did a bunch of stuff. So one of the big things is they may, they're making this documentary. They released a trailer. It is what they call the first apple immersive video production, filmed entirely with the new black magic, ursa sin ding ding.

05:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You said our secret word.

05:39 - Jason Snell (Host)
So so, alex it looked really good a A lot of motorcycle footage. A lot of you are standing at the track, you are looking out the window, you are down in the pit. It's pretty much. I mean, it looked great, it looked like an Apple immersive experience to begin with, but I just I feel like this is. We've been talking for a while now about like oh, I don't know, are they out there? What's going to happen now? And it turns out that an early one apparently got to Canal Plus because they have shot this documentary at the French Grand Prix. So a lot of immersive motorcycle racing coming this fall. But they say it's a complete immersive documentary. I assume not a 10-minute long doc, but who knows what it is, but anyway, so there's some proof of life.

06:24 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So Canal has produced, in collaboration with Le Pomme, Apple and MotoGP, a compilation organized by Dona. This new documentary event is the first Apple immersive video production filmed entirely with the new Blackmagic Elsa camera.

06:42 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I'm excited about the filmed entirely part. You know because entirely entirely when I see like that was a message to bono yeah, when I see full length now I go I kind of feel like now I need a little sticker on all of them that say 100.

06:58 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Uh, you know, immersive, yeah, 100 do you need the application to do this or no?

07:05 - Jason Snell (Host)
It's unclear how they're going to distribute it.

07:08 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's a feature for its application, the Canal Plus app.

07:11 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, so it may be that you just go to the app store when they release this and download the Canal Plus app and get it there, and I don't know if you're going to buy it or if they're going to do the thing where they just have everybody who's got a vision pro just gets to see it.

07:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I think it's a promotion, for what app is the? Is the whole thing right?

07:27 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
yeah, we'll see, but anyway, that's the idea and and I think that I think we're going to see a lot more I haven't seen this yet, but from what you're talking about here, I think that you're going to now these kinds of experiences, like you can go there, and I do think that the immersive is going to make a lot of sense for documentaries and for non-narrative.

07:43
For motorcycles yeah, well, but for non-narrative as well, just feeling like you're somewhere, you know like I'm going to take you somewhere and I think it's going to be fairly effective. But again, it's been an art project. Every time we've done this for the last 20 years it's been, you know, cobbling things together having a camera that you push the button and it records, and having a back end that can publish to the headset is going to. It's going to make a lot more available.

08:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You do not want to handheld the ursa, or do you?

08:13 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
you can. I wouldn't necessarily do handheld, I probably you. You probably you could put it on, yeah, in general, in general, moving a lot. Uh, they're going to show some moving. You, you need to have a, something stable right in the middle of the frame, typically to keep your your width.

08:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So if a race, if a motorcycle is racing by you, you wouldn't pan with the air.

08:32 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
So typically you'd let someone experience them. They'd watch it with their head. You know they wouldn't necessarily. Oh, that's good, I like that.

08:39 - Jason Snell (Host)
So that's why you're yeah you got that wide field of view, and there's definitely moments in the trailer where you get that wide field of view, where you have to watch. It's like you're standing there, right, you can see the motorcycles coming and going and you're watching them as they go around, and then it'll cut to another viewpoint. But you're not. You know, I think that that is a best practice for this sort of thing is in 2D, regular on a screen Like it's doing the panning for you, but in immersive you should be looking around.

09:08 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
It's your job and that's part of what makes the filmmaking so much different, why it's hard oftentimes to work with traditional filmmakers, because they have those like I want you to be looking right here right now and you're like, well, you want to experience this thing and then experience that thing, and it's more of a play, but broken up into little bits and pieces, and so so I think that it's going to be.

09:24
I think this will be really interesting, I think, but again, I you know the number of cameras out there will start very small. There's one here and one there, but I think that once the tooling's done, the big advantage of having someone like Blackmagic build it is, once the tooling's done, they can produce a lot of them, you know, and I think that I think that even though the market is relatively small, it can be big enough if you have enough 10,000 people willing to do something. That's enough to pay for a lot of things. So maybe not this whole documentary, and I think I'm hoping that Apple the problem really is that Apple tends not to underwrite other people building stuff for them and that's a huge clamp on what can be done right.

10:07 - Jason Snell (Host)
This feels very much like a test case still, I mean, the training wheels aren't off but it seems like, as a pilot of here's how a third party can use the black magic camera, apple, because apple is listed as a co-producer here. Apple and black magic have gone to a media partner, canal blues, and said let's make a thing using presumably using either your production team or a doc team that you're comfortable with, and we have best practices and they've got the cameras and we'll do it. So it's really like it was probably a pilot of like what happens when one of these things ships and we'll give them advice and we'll we'll use it, but it's still. It feels to me like a step along the way to having the ability to do immersive content, just be out in the world, instead of it being something that if, if it's not, you know, baked in by apple, it doesn't exist well, and more importantly, there hasn't been a good moto gp film, according to burke, since the doctor, the tornado and the kentucky I will tell I know nothing about this.

11:08
I hadn't. I assumed that it was going to be about car racing and I saw it was motorcycles, and my response is exactly what you'd expect, which is oh, motorcycles two wheels okay I don't, I don't really care, but the fact is I don't care about the.

11:20
I don't care about the, uh, the, the bull rider at the rodeo either, but that was a really interesting immersive doc, or the or the people climbing free climbing, you know? Right, it's not about. It's not about deeply caring about a sport, it's all it's more about like, why do people find this interesting? What is the spectacle? That's what I love about docs.

11:40
Actually, one of my favorite things about documentaries is finding, uh, something having finding something about people who are deeply into something Because, like the King of Kong is my favorite example, which is, like you know, I my my interest in Donkey Kong is limited, but I love the idea that people are obsessed with it, yeah, and that passion is so amazing. So when I saw it I was like, ok, sure, motorcycle Grand Prix is going to be spectacle.

12:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's going to be.

12:10 - Jason Snell (Host)
There's going to be human drama like I get it, and and in the trailer, like it's a hell of a trailer.

12:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I I will watch the whole thing. Totally sorry, jaws wanted to jump in. In associated news I justine posted a a tweet about the new spatial personas. Leo, they're so good, they're so good, they're so much better, aren't they?

12:28 - Jason Snell (Host)
They are the beautiful rainbows.

12:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And she got Jaws to respond. Here's Greg Jaws.

12:34 - Jason Snell (Host)
They're so good, oh my goodness is right.

12:36 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Your persona look absolutely fantastic. He's gesturing like he's Italian, not a Jaws.

12:41 - Jason Snell (Host)
What an amazing WD. He's showing off the hand gestures, the amazing disappearing hand gestures. I did a persona chat with my friend, Casey List this morning and I had to remind myself that it wasn't a regular straight-up FaceTime.

12:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's a big improvement.

12:53 - Jason Snell (Host)
They are that good and the trajectory here, which is kind of one of my points about this stuff, is like look, we all know it's $3,500. Most people are never going to buy one. They shouldn't buy one. This, the reason this stuff, has to exist, is because Apple has a plan to gradually build more affordable devices over the course of a decade. Right, but you got to keep pushing the ball forward.

13:11
When personas was debuted, they were creepy and dead eyed and I, I was repulsed by them. And then they did spatial personas. They upgraded the personas and they put them in in 3d space instead of in a box, uh, in a 2d box, and they were good they. So it was like, yeah, you did it all, right, good, good, check, check the box, but no, envision os 26. They're like forget it, throw it away, those are bad, we're gonna, we're doing entirely new ones and they're so much better. They are, um, they capture the sides of your head in a way that the others. It was sort of like a, really a fairly convincing front face, but it was almost like stacked on a, on a mannequin head or something, and now you can actually get the kind of sides and and and it is I, I mean I all I can say is you showed the clip there, but like they look like the people.

14:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Now it's really remarkable how much they look like the people so good job on whoever built this right away, cause there's nothing new in the hardware to allow this.

14:10 - Jason Snell (Host)
I think they struggle with the software. I mean, mark Gurman at one point was reporting that they were really struggling to get it to ship at all, and uh, and, and how far we've come with the same hardware, right, right.

14:19 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, and to be fair, the only. I've seen so many videos of people just basically so excited at how good it is. We've seen so many examples like Jaws and like like I just seen about how good it is. The only thing that I've seen in video so far that still stumbles on is beards, Like a mouth will like just disappear and fade away and ghost.

14:41 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yes.

14:41 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Depending on the facial hair.

14:42 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, in fact, my friend Mike Hurley wrote a piece about this uh called spoiler. The beard is still a problem and the issue is not the rendering, because the rendering is good. The problem is that if you have a beard, um, something about the algorithm fails to register that your mouth is open, so you talk sort of like it's very, I have no mouth and I'm a scream and they gotta, they gotta fix that. But the persona itself is so much better than it was. So, um, kudos to them for getting one of the best features, actually honestly, of vision OS and just kind of tossing it out and doing a better one Like just it. Really, it's really very good.

15:22 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
And I think that this is where Apple is going to keep is continuing to grow into the headset. The headset has a lot of capacity. It has a lot of overhead to some degree, and in some cases, like video playback, I would say that when it's doing 90 frames a second, 8K per eye, it is at its max of what it can do, and so there are places where that's what it was built for. But I think we're going to see more and more of of things growing into, uh, what you can actually do in the headset, and I think that if they made the headset lower powered, we would never get there. Like we would never see what's possible.

15:57
That's the. That's the issue. Is you everything that the last set of personas would have been good enough because that's as good as it can do? Um, this one probably, probably has another step up from here, and I will say, even with the last version, I really felt like with the last version that was out, I've had like one and two hour meetings with folks that are placed in 3D space and we're sitting there talking and I get kind of surprised that I'm having this conversation Somewhere in the middle. You're just like I can't believe.

16:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm just doing this virtually so it does look a little perturbed by his lack of beard definition. I mean, can you play one of the videos so we can see the mouth, kind of yeah, that's the problem is the mouth just doesn't look like tobacco they need.

16:43 - Jason Snell (Host)
They gotta work on it, like it they got. I'm sure there's a fix they can do and I'm sure they're aware of it, but like you should be able to use this with a beard. You really should not have to like step step one, shave step two, use vision pro is not apple.

16:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Executives have beards. I just want to point this out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go there you go by the way weirdly. That's the first time we've ever seen an apple executive, as far as I know yeah, I think it's.

17:07 - Jason Snell (Host)
I think it's legitimately, because the personas are so good now that they can do it. They could do it.

17:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They didn't they. That's it. That's an admission. They didn't want to.

17:14 - Jason Snell (Host)
It doesn't look like a weird puppet of jaws, it looks like jaws and that's. That's the difference. Yeah, I did a, I did a brief, I got a briefing demo. Um, this is why I wrote about it on six colors is that I got to experience the not just, uh, a feature that's not in the beta yet, which is the Jupiter environment, which is interesting mostly because they added UI to environments so you can affect, sort of choose what they look like, which they didn't have before. It was sort of just a a stable, kind of immersive environment that you could go in the side of your side of your head. Ah, it's so realistic. It's not like a slab of ham on a box, which is what it used to be like.

17:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It really is a big improvement. That's fantastic.

17:52 - Jason Snell (Host)
It is vastly better. But they did the thing where there were two rooms. I was in one room talking to them and using the Vision Pro, and we used the little thing where you can again, this is one of those table stakes features in the long run, which is, if we both have Vision Pros on and we're in the same room, we should probably see the same things. Right, and they've added that and to go along with that, that suggests a level of geographic understanding. You understand what room you're in and you do a share play and the other person understands you're in the same room and you're seeing the same object in the same space. Well, the next thing they do is they take me out of that room. It's like, okay, where are we going? There's a room next to it.

18:29
Never, let them take you to a second location I know I was thinking you'd never go with a hippie to a second location. Um, and I step in the door and all of a sudden, boop, boop, boop, boop windows and widgets pop up all over in that space. Because they preset it, because that's one of the other features of vision os 26 lock them in. That is also again kind of like a long-term ar table stakes, which is, if you're you know, if you want to leave it like okay, so uh, sandwich I remember.

18:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I remember, though, when you first got it, you lost an app in your garage yeah, that's true.

19:01 - Jason Snell (Host)
It's like I left safari in the other room, but that that was only when you were using it and but and it was sessions would forget where it was, and then and then the new feature is that, through reboots, it's all persistent, and now you can actually lock items in place and say that stay, stay here.

19:17
And you can. By the way, you don't actually lose it if you open safari you can still see it in a different room. The idea, though, is, when you go back into that room, it'll be back exactly where you left it, which is.

19:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's funny because Microsoft has an Azure location facility that does that and they showed it off in their Minecraft apps, like four years ago, where you would build something and if you went back to that area as you were walking around, it would still be there.

19:41 - Jason Snell (Host)
It is. I mean, geographic persistence is a thing you need to have.

19:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You're going to do AR down the road.

19:44 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
So, so.

19:45 - Jason Snell (Host)
So I'll give you an example. Sandwich has this really funny app called television, where you can put place various 3d television objects in space and then watch video on them. Well, that app, and there's another great one called Windora, which is basically like a virtual window that you can put a picture in and set it into a wall, and then it's like there's a window there, but then you take it off and and you come back a couple days later and it restarts and they're gone because they're not persistent with with vision os 26. If you put a fit, any app that can generate a physical, a virtual physical object in a space somewhere, you basically know that when you come back it'll be, it'll still be there, which is like you have to if you're going to advance this platform. Stuff like that has to be the case.

20:31
So it's just I wasn't very encouraged that there's no S26 there. They keep rolling the ball forward, cause obviously this is a long term project for them for it to be anything that is broadly appealing, and they're still doing the work. This does not feel like an abandoned platform and it it better not, because you know, the only reason for it to exist is the future right, I, I'm going to stand corrected on the vision pro.

20:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They really did stick with it, uh, and it's presumably I mean that's an m1 in there two, two. So presumably in years to come there will be successors that will have more power, more capability.

21:07 - Jason Snell (Host)
I'm sure they have those in the labs right now presumably and and the most important things right is cheaper and lighter.

21:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I mean, that's obviously, obviously but but I, if it's super capable, maybe it's worth 3 500 bucks.

21:18 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
You pay 3 500 bucks for a high-end macbook, I mean I still look at in in today's dollars. The Apple IIe that I got when I was 12 was $6,000. Right, so it's not that it can't be paid.

21:29 - Jason Snell (Host)
But for that you need content and use cases and that's what they're still struggling with is right. I agree that $3,500 seems ridiculous. But if you could watch a bunch of NBA games courtside or a bunch of broadway shows or like there are lots of different kind of like very specific applications that if you can get those on that device, even at 3500 they'll sell some and at 2000 they'll sell a lot more. But it's hard they're.

21:52 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
They're not a lot of those right now yeah it really has to be a productivity device at that price point.

21:58 - Jason Snell (Host)
It can't at less than a thousand dollars or luxury entertainment but that's the I.

22:04 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I still think and obviously Alex will have more to say about this but I'm I still have the ability to have the, have the inability to think about how much content could they, what content could they possibly create to make people think that a $2,000 or even headset like this was worth it as an entertainment device? I mean, they're nice to have the demos, they're nice to have that extra experience, but at that price point there has to be a huge library of tailor made entertainment to justify that expense, which is why it has to be a productivity device at that price point.

22:34 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Well, I also think it depends on whether people have a lot of people to hang out with and whether it depends on, like, a lot of things related to that, because I can tell you that, like, if I'm watching a movie and my kids and my wife aren't around, I just watch it on the vision pro, and the reason I do that is because the resolution is the highest resolution I can find. Whether I'm at a theater or at home. The highest resolution of a film is on the apple vision pro.

22:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Like, I can see the grain you know like, yeah, but apple has to make a step. Uh, I mean, look, you guys are enthusiasts, uh, you spend a lot of money on it, you, you're all in on it, but they've got to take that step.

23:06 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Well, I think there's a couple, there's a couple of things is, it's all about building the authoring tools for the content that needs to go onto it, and I think that that's what's missing right now. So so, the, the, the camera, is part of that problem, but the other part of that is how do you generate virtual environments or experiences and other things in 3D, and I think that Apple hasn't spent enough time on that. They've got the reality creator and they've got reality converter and they, you know, but like, for instance, they gave a bunch of money to Blender, to the Blender org, and we still don't have a direct USDZ export from it. You know, and that's the kind of stuff that Apple, you know, should be focusing on. Like, hey, we're going to give you a bunch of money when we want, we want an exporter out of it or write it themselves. It's an open source thing. Like, write a plugin to do that, um, you know, effectively, but it should ship with it.

23:51
You know, and and so the but the, the, the key is is figuring out how do we make it easier, um to to build content for, uh, the platform, and I don't think that Apple's investing enough, and I think this is the same problem I'll always keep coming back to books is that Apple is like build it and they will come, and they need to maybe do a little bit more like so. So I think that the that, um, you know, having the apps be a little bit more aggressively. Uh, uh, you know, having app, either supporting other apps, building better partnerships, or building their own apps, or buying companies and doing it. Apple needs to get better at generating, making it really easy to generate content for the headset. Um, cause, right now it's it's not easy, you know to, to generate content.

24:36 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So the club is bombarding you, Jason, with the questions I should have been asking. Tell us about what you saw.

24:42 - Jason Snell (Host)
I saw, uh mean, no, I mean I already said it, it was a trailer and it was about you know you're in the pits you're, you're following this guy around. It's about this guy who, uh, you know, it's obviously going to be a character study and he comes back. The pr says comes back to win the grand prix. So spoilers, I guess. Um, yeah, no kidding, but um, you know, motorcycle action I don't want to watch a loser.

25:02
I I don't want to be like Joe Bob Briggs, but it's like motorcycle foo, pit foo. There's the stuff. It's an interactive sports doc. You're going to get all that stuff.

25:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I imagine that that trailer is now. I wanted to know if you see it from Zarco's perspective.

25:18 - Jason Snell (Host)
That would be a very heavy, large camera to put on there he wouldn't be surprised if there's some.

25:24
There's some stuff like following him. We'll, we'll see. But there's a. The kanopolis app is available in the app store for vision pro, so I would imagine the trailer is there now. I haven't verified that. Okay, I got it.

25:35
Apple now has the ability which is really nice for press to give us things under embargo in advance, which they added this whole like immersive video utility to the app store, and one of the advantages of that is you can run that on your mac and then, uh, download a file and then play it on your vision pro, which is it's. That's very helpful for those of us who cover this stuff, but I I so I haven't, with wwc and everything. I haven't gone back to verify if it's in the app yet, but it should be soon and that's the, and they say that this fall the whole doc is coming out and the news peg here is that why are we talking about this instead of you know every other thing that they release on Vision Pro? And the answer is it is the first sighting in reality of Alex's much ballyhooed, anticipated Blackmagic camera that regular companies could get and use to make their own immersive content, as opposed to the custom, shall we say apple solution and it's been built.

26:30 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Do you have a delivery date, alex, yet for your uh, for your ursa pro? No, they didn't. They don't send you an email. I don't have it. You'll get it soon, uh no, if you have to ask yeah, yeah, yeah. So I know it's, it's still so one day, a package is just going to show up at your door and you're going to go.

26:46 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
oh, I think there will probably be more discussions in between. So the but I think that the but I think that, yeah, I think that the what's going to be interesting is that it's not just the hardware that they have to get working, it is the software, and it's not what Apple is doing with is not the same as what Meta is doing with the software. In Meta you have a stereo pair that you're looking at. At Apple, there is an extrusion base that's building a delta correction between your inner, the inner axial of the camera and the inner ocular of your eyes, and that is a much more complicated problem than what happens and it's why the, when done well, the Apple footage looks way better than what you see on meta is partially because of the resolution but partially because of this correction system.

27:34
That is that can be used. You know, and most of what you're seeing on Apple vision pro, if it's not done by Apple, doesn't make that correction. I think the Prima app is the only thing that has made that and make that correction. I think the Prima app is the only thing that has made that correction so far that we've seen outside of Apple. So those are the things, but getting that to all work and resolve. I think is a non-trivial problem and I think that that's.

27:56 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, that's what's interesting about this whole thing is it's harder to do what Apple set out to do. They weren't able to do it out of the gate.

28:04 - Jason Snell (Host)
So this is the reason you shipped the Vision Pro, even though it's ridiculous.

28:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's a developer beta.

28:12 - Jason Snell (Host)
If you wait for the moment that, finally, you are ready to have a consumer product that everybody can use, and then you're like, hold on, hold on, we need another three years to learn everything we need to learn, it's like you've missed the moment, like this is the time to stumble around and figure out what's good and what's bad and what works and what doesn't, and get a pipeline going. See the market with people who are thinking about immersive video and all of those things, and like, again, I appreciate them willing to take the punches on this product because, look, actually I'm going to draw a parallel to Apple Intelligence. When, because, look, actually I'm going to draw a parallel to Apple Intelligence. When they rolled out Apple Intelligence, they did it in a way that only Apple rolls out anything which is full marketing blitz to everybody, and that was a problem, right. They shot those Bella Ramsey Apple Intelligence ads for a feature that they didn't have and that still hasn't shipped and won't ship until next year, and that was a mistake, right?

29:01
Well, I think they did that with the Vision Pro too. They're like well, we'll just sell it like an amazing, revolutionary consumer product. And it's like it's not. It is a developer kit, it's a taste of the future, it's fun, but it's not practical in any way. And like that's okay, as long as they keep their eye on the idea that they're just kind of iterating and figuring it out, because they're placing a bet on that. Some product they ship, whether it's glasses or a headset or something in between, in the next decade will be built on a version of Vision OS, and I'm not saying that's a guarantee. I mean, the tech may not advance enough for it to create something people are willing to wear. It may not, but I think they're. They and Meta are placing a bet and Google now are placing a bet that there's probably something there, and if there's going to be something there, they want to be there, and and and Apple's doing that work now.

29:54 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
And the advantage they have over Meta, for instance, is the fact that I feel like the entire new operating system, all those little buttons and all the changes and everything else that's built for a headset Like that, is a that is slowly preparing us for a headset operation. All the semi-transparent, you know the glass buttons is all setting up for they look great on a phone. They look, you know they're, they're cool, but what they're really useful for is when you're, when you put a headset on, and so this is a multi. You know Apple can do something that's going to take years to develop and have everyone slowly used to it. So when the headset comes up, they don't the amount of friction to use, whatever the wider releases happens. But to Jason's point, you have to have a. You know you had to have a seed, you had to have a number of people and it can't be like 10 people or 20 people in labs, so having 400,000 people who are playing with it and thinking about it and able to talk about it and cross pollinate, and there's enough for some people to turn that into a business, and I think that that's going to be. That's. You know, that's where they're, that's all they have to do right now and that's all they've had to do right now, but they got to figure out both.

31:07
The video part is getting very close. By the end of the summer, I think that they'll be very close to having something that's able to churn out video. Live video is the next thing. So, being able to have live immersive which this camera I don't expect to be able to do I'm not at the not a full resolution and full frame rate so we should you should be able to see it live. I think they they've talked about it being able to you be able to see it live while you're shooting, which is super. If you look at a lot of decisions that I wouldn't agree with, necessarily for some of these productions, it's because you can't see it Like they shot what they shot.

31:33 - Jason Snell (Host)
You couldn't see the live output With that submarine movie you could see that the director is standing there. They did some stuff of like they're literally looking at it in a vision pro while they work on it, which is good. I will say there was a not immersive, but there was a 3d live stream last week. Right, sandwich um did the talk show live again and they learned some lessons. Um, they're going to have, I think it's multiple camera angles this time where you can choose to watch straight on or or there they had a couple other uh devices, I think there iPhones left and right.

32:04
It's not immersive, right, it's a 3D on a stage kind of thing, but, like I love that they're experimenting with that, the idea of can we stream this stuff live. So everybody's tinkering and this is why I likened it when I wrote my first review of the Vision Pro. I likened it to when the early days of computers and the Apple II and stuff like that, because that's what it reminds me of is everybody's just playing around with stuff, because, I mean, the tech is new and it doesn't quite work, right, and nobody's really there yet, but it's probably going to be something eventually, so let's figure it out in the meantime, and it feels like that's exactly what's happening with a lot of the spatial stuff.

32:43 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
And I think, I think that the, the phone has turned out to be more successful than I think even Apple expected with the spatial stream. You know, spatial capture and I mean when you are out there capturing the biggest for me still the biggest problem with the spatial capture that Apple does is playing it back inside of photos with that blurred, that huge blur around the edges, really is a bummer and and it's like, and and I know that there's some edge issues that they're trying to hide. You know, probably, but you know like, for instance, that's one of the reasons you open up a stream, the stream voodoo app, which is another app that's doing spatial, and it takes away this blur and looks fine, and I think sandwich doesn't use the the blur on the outside and it looks fine.

33:23
I hate that, and so so outside it doesn't, and it looks. It looks fine. I hate it, and so so I immediately the problem is, I think a lot of people that don't use it either don't have the sandwich app or don't have stream voodoo, where you can just open up the stuff from your photo. I mean, I'm not does the sandwich app let you just open anything from your uh, basically, yes, from your photos, doc, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, from from stream voodoo. I just go to my, you know, I just open up whatever I've got and I can look at it and it's now got hard edges and it's a much more pleasurable experience. But I think that so. But I think that what's what's really cool is is that you can now take your phone and literally just pick it up and be streaming spatial. That means that we're starting down that path without having to swallow the whole immersive problem, which is where this which.

34:02
Having to swallow the whole immersive problem, which is where this, which is going to take some, some more, more time, you know, to get well, but all of this stuff is capable of doing it, I did 4k per eye 360. So, not one, 80, but 360,. We were doing 4k per eye 360 at 60 frames a second in 2017. So so this is not, this is not new, new technology. This is simply, um, you know, it's getting it all working and it's the higher scale, the 8k, and the higher frame rate 90 frames a second which is the what makes everything really really hard well, there's one thing I could say at least I now know what it looks like when jason snell is suddenly snuck up on by the bass player.

34:42 - Jason Snell (Host)
Uh of metallica, that's right, that's the look, by the way, player of Metallica.

34:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's right, that's the look by the way, those are not the glasses you're wearing today Is that those are virtual glasses.

34:50 - Jason Snell (Host)
You don't capture with glasses. You pick your glasses, and those glasses in particular were ones I picked very quickly because I was in the middle of an Apple demo.

34:58
You do get to pick the glasses you're going to wear and actually they added a whole bunch of more glasses options. Yeah, and they're. Actually they added a whole bunch of more apple or glasses options because they want you to try to match glasses that you like or that you wear. But in that case, I really just sort of flipped through and clicked on one and generated that, because that was generated during my my demo got it very nice.

35:16 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
They're very gus fring. Yeah, I like it I do.

35:20 - Jason Snell (Host)
Uh, yeah, I mean because, because it goes without saying, maybe mike hurley needs to shave and then capture, and then they can add a beard on, but unfortunately that's not the problem. The problem is the reverse of that. All right.

35:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's your Vision Pro segment. Aren't you happy?

35:36 - Jason Snell (Host)
Thank you, Leo.

35:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Don't get used to it Done. Actually, I'm more of a believer than I was. I mean, we're making progress, which is interesting.

35:48 - Jason Snell (Host)
That's that's what apple had to do to make it something and I think thinking of it more as a science experiment, yeah, and not as a thing they're trying to sell you that you don't want, right, makes it feel a little bit better, because I think it's really interesting and no, nobody should buy one, but it's really interesting yeah, so I'm glad you guys have one, that's good it really.

36:06 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
It really. To me, it really just illustrates that sometimes the your old impressions of apple and your old rules that absolutely applied in the past don't necessarily apply in 2024, 2025. In old apple, they would not have released something unless they figured something out that nobody else has figured out yet. In modern Apple, it's fine for them to say, okay, this is just another one of those, but we'll continue to iterate on it. So the next time we hear rumors of a brand new product, I think that, appropriately, we're not going to be expecting my God. They're going to fix all the problems that everybody hates about a folding phone or a folding tablet or eyeglasses or whatever. It's just going to be a very nice piece of hardware that's going to do some nice things.

36:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
To begin with, some people will be able to afford it, some people will not be able to afford it, but they'll continue to stay tuned, because we are going to talk about a rumor about a brand new product when we come back, when we come back after this word bombshell our sponsor, you're one.

37:00
It's not a bombshell. You're watching. You're not even close. You're watching Mac break weekly with Andy and not code, jason Snell and Alex Lindsey. We're glad you're here today, our show brought to you by Storyblock. You're going to be glad you got Storyblock, you it?

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40:49 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
no, no, I should have left it on and then go for it. You know I wish I had that I'm in meetings. I'm in meetings a lot, and anytime I'm not active, I have a tendency to just like a cough button, just like yeah, just just turn it off. It's an empty chair.

41:02 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, exactly um, what we are in is the week after wwdc, where it's like kind of. You know, we saw the high level 30 000 foot picture. But now we're getting a little more of the details. For instance, in the developer beta for ios there is information about an apple home hub smart display.

41:25 - Jason Snell (Host)
It's in the beta code well, this is what mark german had been talking about for a while. This is the home pod with a screen that they have a robot arm. No, this is not the one with arm sands. Um, they say, uh, it can't really go until they get that new siri work right so the file name apple dash logo dash 1088 at 2x.

41:52 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Dash home dot. Png has a picture. Um, so this is. You know, if you use home assistant, for instance, or I'm sure other solutions like hubs, you're probably used to a screen like this, a tablet somewhere on the wall that you might control your home with. A lot of people do that. This is Apple's solution to that.

42:15 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
And this is the simple fact that it integrates so well with all of your apps, all of your systems, all of their hardware means that, again, getting back to what we're talking about a moment ago, it doesn't matter if they, if it doesn't have a robotic arm, or if it doesn't fix the problem or bring anything new, it can be very, very good, just simply as an Apple version of another one of those things.

42:35 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, well, good. Uh, and Mark's been saying end of this year. I guess that's.

42:42 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, I mean really. I mean the. The question is, how how much does it really fit into needing app intense or needing new siri? Is it just the app intense stuff? Will that ship this fall or will that be next? Spring sounds like the hardware is, has been in in, uh, pretty good shape, so so they may do that then. And yeah, I mean, I've, I've had an Echo Show. I have a Google Home Nest Mini whatever they call it now in my kitchen. Now Neither of those devices are particularly great.

43:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You don't have the A Word Plus yet the Amazon AI version.

43:15 - Jason Snell (Host)
No, I actually sent the A Word to the cornfield because I was tired of every single interaction I have with it, including a. By the way, let me try to sell you on a service that Amazon provides.

43:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Amazon has turned the Echo to its Fire TV device.

43:32 - Jason Snell (Host)
And it's unacceptable and I just won't do it. So I got a Google One, which is okay, but it's really slow and it's not that great, and also I have a lot of Apple stuff and it's not that integrated integrated. So instead I would love to try a you know, not necessarily ad written connected to my stuff device, uh, from apple in my kitchen, instead of the google device. I don't hate the google device. The google device is sort of underpowered, but okay, I I came to hate the echo because it was just I. I realized that they should be paying me because amazon is the poster child.

44:06 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It was in cory doctorow's first uh article about oven shitification. Yeah, they are now, uh, turning their customer base their locked in customer base, I might add into uh, into, you know, money machines, and I don't like it. No, I gotta. I I've been a 25 year subscriber to audible, literally since the year 2000. And then just unilaterally canceled my account yesterday because I was on a, a, a light listener plan they no longer offer. Instead of handling it in any any reasonable way, they just canceled my account, uh. And now of course I can go back and reinstate it for the same price for half as many books, and I understand, look, maybe they're losing money on the old light listener plan. But that was the most kind of abrupt and unpleasant experience. So I'm dropping Amazon. I want to get out of the audible ecosystem. Corey's been saying you know, audible is kind of totally at the audiobook monopoly at this point. Even though there are many other choices, they dominate. Yeah, I'm ready.

45:18 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I'm ready to move on.

45:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I I downloaded librofm, which supports my local independent bookstore, same cost as the Amazon.

45:25 - Jason Snell (Host)
But I can download them without copy protection and put them, you know, on my plex server or whatever and you can also check audiobooks out from your local library and the Libby Libby app has an audiobook player. Yes, and it's great, it does car play it. I mean, like it's really great uh, you know, goodbye audible.

45:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And boy I would love I. I agree with you. Goodbye echo I. So I'm an idiot. I read somewhere, I don't know where, that if you bought a new echo you'd automatically get a word plus. So I bought the a new echo. Did I get a word plus?

45:57 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
no, I I recently actually, I had a couple of uh echo devices, just like, just like in my library and they're a little bit old but they were still useful and I finally decided that there was no chance whatsoever that I'm going to ever use these for like their intended purposes. So I took them apart and harvested the speakers from them, because I'm building, I'm building, I'm trying to repair like a Bluetooth speaker.

46:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's the best thing to do.

46:20 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
It's a two it's a two way speaker. I can just simply take these things apart. Yeah, but it best thing to do. It's a two-way speaker. I can just simply take these things apart. Yeah, but it's. It's weird, though it might be a different, more difficult thing to crack than we might imagine.

46:31
Uh, google, you might think, is well gosh. They got the nest speakers which, um, I think are very work a day, but they're very, very useful. I have a smart speaker with a screen, uh, in my bedroom. I've got a smart speaker with a screen in my kitchen and both of them a smart speaker with a screen in my kitchen, and both of them are very, very useful, but they're not amazing, but they're very, very useful and they're worth the amount of money that I spent on it.

46:51
However, you'd think that because they've got Gemini, which works very, very well, at least when I'm typing at it and inside the Gemini app, you'd think that making that into a conversational AI on these devices would be a slam dunk. But they've been very, very tentative about releasing Gemini and these advanced chatbot features onto these speakers. At Google IO last month, it was amazing because one of the big things they were saying oh, it's Gemini on everything. Gemini is going to be in Android Auto and Gemini is going to be on the watch and Gemini is going to be on this and nod, nod, nod, nod and the smart speakers and they didn't say anything about it so no, they feel abandoned.

47:31 - Jason Snell (Host)
They really do feel abandoned.

47:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I mean, I also have a kindle some leg room here and, like you, I retired my kindle for the kobo. Yeah, not that rakuten is some small operation or anything, I just I think we know.

47:46 - Jason Snell (Host)
But the cobo team allowed a small spunky operation.

47:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I love it yeah and uh and I, so I and and I got, I just got re. I just subscribed to readwise, which is a kind of um, uh, a replacement for instapaper and pocket right, uh, and I love it.

48:02 - Jason Snell (Host)
That's not free, unfortunately, it's kind of expensive, but this this is where we are, though I feel like this is the final result of a lot of internet business trends, which is there are kind of a couple models emerging, and one of them is the amazon model, which is what cory doctor was dr was talking about. It really is the point where, like, they might as well give it to you for free, because what it is is an orifice to be used to send you engagement bait and special offers and stuff like that. Or you go and and the fire tv is like that too or you go the other way, where it's something like apple is a good example of this where it's nicer but you got to spend, because the reason I mean the reason that the reason that Apple TV is expensive and Roku and Amazon are cheap is because Roku and Amazon don't make their money on the money they're charging you for the thing. They make the money on all the revenue that they generate on you later, based on advertising to you and all of that. And then and I'll I'll mention, like Google makes a TV tv streamer.

49:03
That's actually pretty nice and doesn't do that, but um, but, but google is very easily distracted and in the home speaker space, I feel. I feel like google is probably not even paying attention, but you end up with. So you end up with these choices. Which is do you want it? Unfortunately, do you want it cheap, or do you want it good? And if you want a good, you're going to pay through the nose for it, but maybe it'll be good and nice.

49:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's a great opportunity for Apple. There really is For sure.

49:31 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I just don't know if I'm I don't know how interested I am. I'm a pretty heavy Apple user. We've talked about this in the past. I thought you might be. I look at that screen and I want the control in my pocket, which is where I have it right now.

49:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
You wanna talk to your house what you really want is, and that's why, you need the new Siri you wanna say, turn on the lights, you don't wanna touch something.

49:52 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Can I just say that one of the reasons why I like my Nest displays and the AI that's in there is that, yes, I'm saying, hey, what's the weather like today? And I'm just listening for do I need a code? Do I not need a code? Do I need an umbrella? Do I not really need an umbrella? But the thing is, the screen is really great for supplemental information. For that answer, you'd be annoying me if you're giving me a 30-second presentation on the weather, but if I want to know more, I glance over and it shows actually, here's how it's going to go hour by hour, and here's tomorrow weather too. And Nest is really very good at figuring out in context of the request, what else can I put on the display that I don't have to say out loud?

50:28 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
so there's a lot of opportunity there for that that's, I agree, 100, yeah, and I think that I'm just so. I mean, I guess I just don't want to touch the display, I want to talk to it.

50:35 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, yeah, and then use this play as a supplemental information ambient information, or or like somebody facetimes you when you're in the kitchen and you can just pick up and and have it use center stage.

50:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I will rip all the Google and Amazon stuff out and put in home kit. If, if it, if it, just if they live up to the promise of it. Uh, they haven't yet.

50:55 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I just think that, like for me at this point, like my, uh, my chat GPT is so embedded into, like my daily life that I I look at this and I think this is why Google has to this is why it's an existential threat for Google and not for Apple is that I'm still on my iPhone, I'm not going anywhere, but I've stopped searching. You know I've stopped Google searching and I, you know I've I've stopped calling it chatGPT, I now call it Janet, from the good place. So I just, I literally push a button and I go Janet, hey, janet.

51:22 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
That's a good name. It's getting inside your head, Alex. Don't let it inside your head.

51:26 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yesterday, the garbage disposal didn't work and I was like, janet, my garbage disposal isn't working, what can I do? And she's like you might want to look underneath. There might be a button to reset it. And I'm like, where is it? It should be right in the middle of the center, I love it Isn't the button and it was done.

51:41
That was gonna be 150 of calling somebody because I don't know anything about disposals and um, and but I was like I'm gonna give it a shot and and you, but I well, like I was in a theater, I didn't even say what the brand was. I'm like, hey, I'm looking, I'm in the in a projection booth and I go, I'm looking at a cp950. Is the big dial. Does that control the speakers in the theater or in the or in the room?

52:01 - Leo Laporte (Host)
and they go, oh, that's the speakers for I was taking a walk last night and there were horseshoes on the wires above. Yeah, I thought what the hell is that? So I took a picture, said hey, what's that? And it told me this for it's to take up the slack and fiber optic. I learned that the neighborhood had fiber optic and I I would have just in any other in the past just walked by going well, there's some weird structure in the wires up over my head.

52:27 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Gemini is good at that too. I'm cleaning out lots of, I'm going through a lot of like house, like house cleaning and trying to figure out like which of these six portable like Bluetooth keyboards that I acquired is is a keeper. And just the ability to simply like, use a Gemini live and say how do I pair this keyboard? And we'll just say, oh well, that looks like a gen two, blah, blah, blah. Hold down the F key and press one of these three keys at the top, cause it was just befuddling me and, and the thing is, gemini has my loyalty right now. Not that I think that, oh, I've. Oh, my God, is that because you have an Android phone, a Pixel phone? It was my default, because I was looking at it before just simply as a research thing when it was just like the Lama models, and because I have a Pixel phone, it's really well integrated at a fundamental level.

53:18
But Alex is right that I could be using the icon at the bottom of the screen could be the chat GPT app instead of the Gemini app without much difficulty. The thing is, though, they're so close to each other in like the 80% of what they do, that if my loyalty is originally to Gemini. I kind of need a reason to try something with open AI, ai and also, when I'm doing that thing I should do every six months looking at all of my subscriptions and ask myself yeah, I know it's only $20 extra to do chat GPT as well, but I almost never use it. Should I be paying $20 a month, whereas Gemini will definitely have for that and all the other AI tools that Gemini Pro I forget what they call it, but the subscription version of it adds on. It's like that's a good $20 package every month. That earns its keep, and I don't know that Claude or any other one will have that much of a role in my life if I already have something that is again 80% overlap with everything else.

54:16 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
But that's why it's so important for Google. By perplexity, firefox is perplexity is across.

54:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Perplexity allows you to choose your model, and you can choose gemini or you can choose chat gpt 20 bucks a month. Firefox, I think, is about to make and this is really interesting because they get a lot of money from apple uh, perplexity their default search if that happens. Um, now somebody in the discord made a very good what's going to happen when we get the shitification of AI.

54:46 - Jason Snell (Host)
That AI ain't cheap boy Right. That's scary.

54:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
When it starts doing what the Amazon Echo is doing and saying, oh, by the way.

54:57 - Jason Snell (Host)
Or you'll have those two paths again, right, which is we'll just pay for the premium AI and then you won't be bothered. It's like or Netflix or anything else. Or you can get this one and it's cheap or free, but it's full of ads.

55:08 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
There's also the theory, with researchers, that an AI model gets progressively more. We're driving it insane by using it and slowly and slowly and slowly they're adding improvements to more models. But the thing is, the corpus of this model is losing its grip on its mission and its reality little by little with each passing year. So there's going to be again with this couple of researchers' theory. There'll be a curve where it's getting better and better and better and then suddenly it just completely destabilizes and then falls off the cliff and we have to start again.

55:42 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
And all I can say is that I plan to take full advantage of it until that happens. You know like I just Make it feel bad about itself. No, I'm just like, I'm just going to keep on. I feel like some people are talking about the end of the world and AI and I'm just like, well, I'm going to enjoy the last five years.

55:59 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I mean, you know, I'm going like you know, chat, gpt, everybody's figured you out. They know that you're no good and that you're just not good up to the task. That's what I'm, that's not what I'm saying, that's what I'm hearing, and I keep defending you. But, oh boy, do people really have literally no faith in you? And those shoes are ugly too.

56:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All right, let's take a break when we come back. Uh, I want you guys to tell me what the important learnings were from wwdc. Uh, there were, all the executives went out and did interviews. Um, what, what were you know? What have we now, a week later, learned? That's the question for you to contemplate. Mr jason snell, andy and otko and a Alex Lenz, you're watching Mac Break Weekly.

56:45
We stream, by the way, the show live every Tuesday, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern Time, 1800 UTC. Of course, if you're already in Club Twit, you can watch in the Discord and chat with us in the Discord, but it is open to the public, not the Discord, but we've got YouTube and we follow the chat there. I'm seeing all the chats in all the places uh, twitchtv, tiktok yeah, we stream on tiktok, of all things uh, xcom, kick, facebook and linkedin. So, uh, if you want to watch us live, I invite you to do so.

57:20
Of course, most people watch after the fact or listen after the fact, because it's a podcast. That's why we make it a podcast. So, uh, you can always subscribe in your favorite podcast player or go to youtube or our website, twittertv, slash mbw, to watch uh later, or do both. That's fine with me. I like having a live audience. We've always had a live audience for all of our shows online. Just because that's how you get interactive right On, we go with the show. Apple's Craig Federighi said it was a long road to Apple's multitasking.

57:58
This is his interview with Andrew Cunningham and Ars Technica. Why did it take so long?

58:06 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
There was a lot of stuff. The interview was really, really good and it's substantive, where he's basically saying that the distinction he was making between Mac OS and iPad OS wasn't theological in nature. It was that the performance of the iPad is such that it's not going to be able to keep up with multi-touch and what you would be doing by manipulating Windows. Also, the hardware of the iPad for the longest time was not going to be capable of running multiple apps in the way that someone who interacts with the desktop he also said Mac users were more tolerant of latency.

58:41 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But that makes sense From direct interaction. Yeah.

58:45 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Exactly, you're not directly doing something on a screen.

58:48
He may say again this is why I like that interview the substantive point that he said, that we set a goal for ourselves that this kind of multi-window multitasking means four windows on the main screen, four windows on an external screen, and if we can't get all that working at the same time, we need to keep on developing this, both the hardware and the software, so it's not just simply hey, we don't want to make the iPad like the Mac because we have a dogmatic exclusion. He was making the case, at least again in what he knew was a public forum, that there were technical reasons and here's what our goals were. And we were not able to meet those goals until Apple Silicon, until the most recent Apple Silicon and the most recent everything.

59:28 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, it's a. I mean the original iPad. Multitasking was kind of at an earlier time, you remember, it was limited to very specific hardware, and part of that was because they were using chips that were not as powerful as the M series and later, as well as not having enough RAM that they have now, so that's part of it. My understanding also that's my cryptic when I say my understanding we all know what that means, which is I can't tell you how I understand it, but I understand it is that they embarked on a multi-year project to completely rewrite the windowing interface, and what this is not is a modification of what has come before. That was around for a few years and they realized they needed to start from the start and just do it right, and so they threw that away. That's gone, and what they have is an entirely new multi-windowing model that's inspired by the Mac that can use modern Apple Silicon processors and the increase in RAM in the general environment now that wasn't there before and build something that works great and, having used it for a week like it works really, really well. They did a great job with it. So it really is one of those interesting cases where they cared enough about a multi-window on the ipad, to not just keep patching what they had built, which was a compromised system, but to admit like, yeah, we just got to throw this away and start again.

01:00:56
And so they had a team that just has been chunking away for a while in the background, and this is what they've done, which is basically bring Mac windowing to the iPad, and not only can you put the windows everywhere and you can put them off the side if you want, and all the things you just expect on the Mac. But it's got expose. It's got all the tiling features they added to the Mac last year and they're all bound to shortcuts or to keyboard shortcuts. So you can you know what is it Globe, shift left arrow and the window that you're in goes automatically tiles to the left half of your screen. Or you can tap and hold or click and hold on the green button and you get a whole menu of different tiling options. You can do globe F to toggle in and out of full screen, like it's the whole thing, like they just did it and dropped it on the iPad and said there it is, got it.

01:01:45 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This is what Federighi told Andrew Cunningham at ours. We've discovered many, many optimizations. We re-architected the windowing system. It's new. We re-architected the way we manage background tasks background processing that enabled us to squeeze more out of other devices than we were able to do at the time. We introduced stage manager right cunningham also says stage manager still exists, but it's an optional extra multitasking. It's what it is on the mac it's stage manager on ipad.

01:02:12 - Jason Snell (Host)
Now, speech measure on ipad used to be how you did multitasking. Now it's just an option to manage windows, if you want to, just like it is the Mac and it has nothing to do with the fundamentals of the window management, which, yeah, as he said, it's a rewrite, they put it together and then he mentions background tasks. One of my other favorite announcements of iPadOS 26 is the fact that you've got the ability now, because this was one of my complaints about Final Cut, right, they're like, yay, we did Final Cut and don't leave the app when you export because it'll fail. Um, and like on my mac, I can start a final cut, export and start and then check my mail right, but you can't do that on the ipad can't download the background so.

01:02:52
So they did this thing, and they did it in a smart way, right? Because their concern is that, on the ipad especially, you're not going to be thinking about the fact that there's some app in the background that's chunking away at something and killing your battery, and so it's for. It's for finite tasks, tasks that have an end, that were in, that were initiated by the user, and then, if you go to the background, it pops up a little live activity and it's not just final cut, exports and and 3d renders, but like a big file copy in files will do that too, and so you don't have that moment of like I'm copying a file but I can't leave, right Like cause and it feels so, so old and silly, right Cause this thing is incredibly powerful as a computing device, and yet I've been able to switch to another window while my Mac was doing something since the nineties. So, uh, yeah, they the 90s. So, uh, yeah, it's they.

01:03:40
They did a lot. I mean it's very impressive what they did. They seem to have finally embraced the idea that let the ipad not just like be its own thing, but take stuff for the mac, and it's just not a big deal if, if, windowing is good on the mac. Do it just, you know. Don't try to pretend like you need to put a a weird spin on it for the ipad. You could just do it yeah, and there was.

01:04:00 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
There was also the problem of not all Mac apps. Third-party apps are designed to react well to being in an arbitrarily sized window. One of the big things in one of the developer videos this year was changes they were making to UIKit. That basically tells developers hey look, in the past, if you haven't made your app responsive to unspecified screen sizes, we've tried to help you out by putting you into a container that would be appropriate for your app. We're not doing that anymore, so your app is either not going to work or it's going to look like hot garbage. So you have to start changing your app so that it can sit in an arbitrarily sized container, which is again one of Apple's great strengths is to be able to dictate something to its developers and make it stick.

01:04:52
That's not something that Google can do when it makes a big change to Android, but if Apple says, look again, here's what it's going to be like, you can either have your app stink on ice and look like it stinks on ice, or you can play nice, do what we've been trying to get you to do for the past two or three years and be ready for the upcoming folding iPhone, which we can't actually directly mention and be ready for resizable apps on the iPad and on the Vision Pro.

01:05:19
So yeah, like Jason said, it's a big, big, big change and I'm glad to see all this specific information that this is not simply a dogmatic opinion, that we're not going to make the iPad like the Mac because the Mac is we don't want to make a toaster fridge it's like, which seemed odd when Tim talked about that many years ago. We're not asking for a toaster fridge, we're asking for a modern tablet-based machine. You make it a Mac or an iPad, but it shows that whatever influence that might have had in the past, that was no longer operative and they really were working very, very hard to move mountains to make sure that this happens Seems like a simple change. Finally oh God, they've listened to me after all these years, like no, they were actually.

01:06:04 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
It took a long, long time to make this happen and I don't think the mac's going anywhere, but I don't think that they've ever protected the mac from the ipad. I think it's a matter of figuring out what parts of the mac they want to put in the ipad and how to do it effectively, and everything else, because I still think that apple views the ipad as the more modern version. Sure, and so the Mac is there and they're continuing to develop it, but I still feel like somewhere there there's a little bit of well, that's the legacy platform.

01:06:31 - Jason Snell (Host)
I think there's a lot less of that than there used to be. There was definitely a time when that was absolutely what they thought, but I think it's the reverse, alex. I think that they have overprotected the iPad from the Mac for a while and they're like well, we can't just do what we did on the Mac, let's do it differently. And with windowing, you're seeing them. You know the windowing on the Mac is pretty good. Maybe we could just do that. And so they do it.

01:06:59
I would say to Andy's point about kind of dogma I feel a real dropping of dogma with the iPad now, where they're like you know what, if Mac windowing is good and that's what people want, we'll do it and we'll make it good, instead of it being like, well, we're going to be precious about it and kind of take it three quarters of the way and leave it there where nobody's happy.

01:07:12
They're like no, we're going to go all the way. And and it's the thought struck me last week while I was writing one of my stories that the big winners here, big winner here, is Apple. I feel like for the first time, the next time they do a round of iPad pro releases is not going to get the same story they've gotten for the last eight years, which is well, the hardware is nice, but the software just isn't good enough and you can't use it and their software is letting down the iPad. That has been the narrative for almost for basically a decade now, since the iPad Pro was first released in 2015, a decade ago and I feel like they've skated away from a lot of that. This time. I'm sure there'll be people who still rehash that narrative. But I look at what's in iPadOS 26 26 and I think, oh, for the first time, I feel like the ipad os, or first time in a long time, ipad os, uh, is software that lives up to the hardware and that's I don't agree.

01:08:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That's gonna be so good for them to not have that criticism.

01:08:15 - Jason Snell (Host)
I mean, there'll be other criticisms, right, but I feel like the idea that the os has completely let down the hardware it feels like isn't so much the case anymore.

01:08:23 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I think the hard part is it's not so much the OS that is letting down the hardware as much as all the other apps. I mean there's no apps that are fully taking advantage oftentimes of the iPad's power and the problem is that's combined with. Apple makes a really good tablet that lasts a long time. My daughter is still using the first iPad Pro, the fifth, I don't know, 12 point, whatever in her room. She's still using it Like they're very, very durable.

01:08:49 - Jason Snell (Host)
They last a long time Nine and a half years, yeah.

01:08:52 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, and it's still in use and I have some Pros. I think they're a couple of years old. I haven't felt here's the problem is for Apple is. I haven't felt here's the problem is for Apple is I haven't felt the need to go to another, to a, to a newer one. Uh, the one that did get me to buy one was because one of the apps needed to have it. I think it was, I think I think it was resolved or something needed to. You know, something to move up. But in general, I've I've not felt the rush that I felt to, oh, I have to get something, and I I've slowed down on the rush that I felt to, oh, I have to get something, and I I've slowed down.

01:09:23
On the phones, I think Apple is having a hard time outdoing every phone every year, and I don't think that was the design, but some of us were buying them every year. Um, I think the 15 was a huge jump forward. I think that you know the 16, I didn't feel like I needed to have so, like it wasn't enough, wasn't enough change. So I think that that's. But I think that the problem with the ipad is that is, is that again, we just don't have developers pushing it hard enough and apple's going getting there, but I think that there's very few times when you open up an ipad you feel it bend under well, that's true, although I mean between the background tasks and the menu bar, like I feel like they're.

01:09:58 - Jason Snell (Host)
They have laid the groundwork here for the ipad and its apps to be taken more seriously. And the third party there are some really great third party apps for it, but I agree. But if the platform vendor can't do it, then what's the point? And, to Apple's credit, I feel like they've stepped up now in terms of building an operating system for the iPad that's worthy of the hardware that it runs on.

01:10:24 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I guess I would say that the other thing this is a problem for the M series in general that may run that Apple run into is these chips are so powerful, the M4, mac Mini. I'm running 120 frames per second, 1080p or 4K. Actually, 4k at 120 frames, second out of an out of mac mini and it's at like 10 capacity. You know like it and, and so it makes me think about you know when we the only time we ever feel it processing is when I'm running resolve with a d-grain, uh and uh, you know, in a full, full size render on a little base unit 600 mac600, mac mini uh, is the only time we feel like it started to slow down.

01:11:05
Right, and I think that that's going to be again I think Apple has to look at. I still feel like Apple needs to invest in. I know it's against their. This is where they are dogmatic of like we're not going to ever pay developers to do something, but they, I think they really should have a mega fund Like Epic did. If you're going to do something adventurous on our hardware, we'll help you, because I think that would help them get people being more aggressive with the hardware.

01:11:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I feel like there's a bigger story here. For a long time, apple's been criticized for their software. Their hardware is great, but they just don't have a good software team. Not since Steve Jobs was running the pirate operation and you had Bill Atkinson and Andy Hertzfeld. Does it seem to you like suddenly software is clicking, like everything we've talked about today is improved software? Did Craig Federighi bring in a bunch of new people, fire a bunch of dead weight? What happened? Or is that just my imagination?

01:12:06 - Jason Snell (Host)
I don't know, and the problem is, we'll try to connect it to things that we've been talking about for the last six months, but it's probably more like something in the last couple of years, but it's very hard to see. But I agree with you, does that?

01:12:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
impression make sense to you. It feels like they're suddenly like just even the profiles and vision pro this. Suddenly we re-architected iPad windowing. Sounds like their software team is suddenly getting good Clicking a little bit.

01:12:30 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, I think that the port to M1 was an incredible amount of energy, both before but before the M chip and after. Everything had to be moved, like for years. You gotta remember that there's like a there. There was a huge lift for two or three years before the m1 came out of how do you get ready for the? So they were distracted and you have all this other stuff that's happening afterwards to kind of keep, and they're, and they're continuing to. You know, uh, um, to rebuild all the code. You know they're. And you're seeing more being ported to swift. You're seeing more which is going to be much more efficient than some of the older solutions that they had before, and so there's a lot of optimization of the code for the hardware that. So I think that there's been five or six years of that energy at least being sucked up just by this conversion to an entirely new platform, and I think we're now only just starting to see the fruits of that process.

01:13:21 - Jason Snell (Host)
Also they built Vision Pro in the background, the whole time they had a team building and a car right.

01:13:28
So Vision OS was stealth until two years ago, right, but those people have been able to. There's still people working on Vision Pro. Obviously it's moving forward, but a lot of that they built that OS and so that is freeing up people. And the car project freed up people and we know that we've seen like Rockwell, who was in charge of Vision Pro, has now been brought over and is doing other stuff, including Siri.

01:13:57
Where the software was kind of shaky was when they had at least two skunk works projects unannounced, where they were building whole operating systems underneath the surface. And now they're now they're back doing what they're doing here and and it wouldn't yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the story too is just like a lot of engineers who spent a lot of time building. I mean, I've known, I've talked to people, like years ago, who were working on car stuff and then it turns out working on vision stuff and uh, and now those projects are either wrapped or they're visible and they've shipped. So it's it's a better time but yeah the vibes are good, leo.

01:14:36
I mean I really, at a time when a lot of the vibes around Apple are very bad in terms of this very specific like are they executing on software when the answer for about five years has been not really? It felt like this OS update.

01:14:53 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
They're really showing their work and the work is pretty good, and I think what you're seeing is also a grand unification of all these OSs. You know that they're really all feeling like they all belong to the same thing, which is the Vision OS. That's what they all feel like they're part of is they've kind of built something that they're not planning to change for a while.

01:15:12 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, and for a $3 trillion company. We often forget that Apple has a limited amount of focus, so if something is commanding a huge chunk of that attention, then their collective attention is not necessarily going towards other directions, and so I think that Jason has a really great point that a lot of their attention has now been freed up to the meat and potatoes of the operations. I think that's why we're seeing, cumulatively, a lot of this really quiet, revolutionary stuff and, really honestly, a lot of this really quiet, revolutionary stuff and, really honestly, this is one of the best WWDCs, I think, in many years, because we're just seeing not.

01:15:50
One of my things is always that, okay, fine, you built a $3,500 gadget, you made a $12,000 watch. Give something that will actually help people and make their lives simpler, give more value to the stuff that they already own. And this really was one where, oh, if you have an iPad and you bought it, like in the last four or five years, it's about to get so much better. If you bought the, if you did buy the Vision Pro last year, we're going to actually make it a lot more useful than it used to be. On and on and on and on. Just little changes, basic changes that make whatever you bought in the last five years work way, way, way better and make you glad that you, however long ago, you put that money into the Apple platform. You feel like you. That was a really good investment. Again, I'm very happy about WWDC.

01:16:33 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
And I will say that also, that the language stuff. We kind of stepped over Apple's not, you know not in the front lane on the language thing. Microsoft was way ahead of everybody else. Google has been doing this for a little while, but we are really quickly approaching a time like very Star Trek-y, like we're two or three years away from you having a conversation with someone with your AirPods in and you're just hearing the translation as they're talking. You know, and I think that's kind of amazing when we think about it.

01:17:04
It's going to be low late, it's going to be zero latency language translation. I mean, there's little headsets that kind of do it now, but it's going to be something everybody has, I think, probably within the next three years, and that's going to change a lot and forth. I think it's. Google actually did this with Kinawanda, which is a pretty small language. This is the language in Rwanda. Now it's being supported. It means that the entire English corpus of information is now available to someone who doesn't speak English in Rwanda, which is a big deal from an education perspective.

01:17:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, You're watching MacBreak Weekly Andy Inako, alexindsey, jason snell I'm glad you're here as a data point that apple has improved uh, its software, do you think? I mean it's an opaque operation, but it feels like they maybe have reassigned, reorganized, move people around. Um, for instance, they've migrated their backend servers for passwords from Java to Swift and they saw a 40% improvement. I'm sorry, java to Rust. Did I say Swift? It says Swift, but it was Rust, I think. I don't know now.

01:18:16 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I thought it was Swift.

01:18:18 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I thought it was too, but then I'm seeing competing articles.

01:18:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So maybe it was Swift, I don't know.

01:18:24 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, they're real believers in Swift on server side, to the point where there's this entire. I don't know if you've mentioned this before, but they just dropped an entire new container architecture last week.

01:18:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Isn't that fascinating. It's a Docker-like system, just for macOS.

01:18:38 - Jason Snell (Host)
It's Docker-like. It runs on macOS.

01:18:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's got Linux as the's the scan operating system, that's right and so you can do your.

01:18:45 - Jason Snell (Host)
You can, yeah, it's. It's a linux container, so it's docker like fascinating but it's a linux container and then you can do your. The idea is you can do it for anything you want, but they built it so that you could do like swift server-based swift stuff, because they found value in that so.

01:19:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So the password backend was written in Java. That's the kind of thing that any enterprise would do a quick and dirty version of it. At some point they said let's re-architect this. They got 40% improvement. John Voorhees has an article at Mac Stories about the new speech-to-text APIs.

01:19:19 - Jason Snell (Host)
I used this earlier today, so his son whipped up the command line tool that uses those APIs that are available to developers now, and there really should be shortcuts too. We've used.

01:19:29 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Whisper from OpenAI for a couple of years now and thought very highly of it.

01:19:34 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, so I've used Whisper CPP, which is a C++ project. Yeah, you recommend it and I wired a shortcut into it and it's using the V3 Turbo and Apple's transcription that's built in. It will be on every Apple device that has 26 on it. It was about twice as fast as Whisper. It was not as accurate, I will say, as V3 Turbo, but twice as fast and it will be great to give that power to users. But it also goes to all.

01:20:00 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That may be a dial.

01:20:01 - Jason Snell (Host)
by the way, you can turn that typically is Slower means accurate but like that that also means every app developer gets that. So if there's any audio, if you're a podcast app developer, you can just turn this on your podcast. I I transcribed a two, uh almost two hour long podcast in like 75 seconds on a on a mac studio, so um. So his son finn.

01:20:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
He says in just like 10 minutes, built this app, yap a command line using the speech framework.

01:20:30 - Jason Snell (Host)
So he's obviously got the the beta developer beta right only works on, the only works on the beta and the app is it shouldn't, it shouldn't need to exist, right, but?

01:20:38
but he needed a way to bridge, just to demonstrate it to those frameworks yeah from the command line, but you can literally, unlike whisper, where you have to convert it to a very specific wave file format apple's stuff you just give it a sound file that apple understands and it spits out a transcript. It's kind of amazing, and this is again. This is part of the story of wwdc, where third-party app developers are getting access to a whole bunch of different Apple models that are machine learning models that they can just use in their apps, and this is another one of them, which is this transcription engine, so you can take speech and turn it into text in a very short amount of time.

01:21:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I also love it and we've mentioned this a few times but that the Apple has made all of this stuff available to app developers. Yeah, so you get these great high quality tools and, and, and. What it shows also is a little bit of a change in culture from no, no, we're going to have access to the best stuff. You're just going to have to do with what we give you. Apple will let third-party music apps show animated artwork on the iphone screen. Now, right, yeah, that that's, I think, a slight cultural shift, isn't it?

01:21:45 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, some of it, I think, is actually nudged by regulation.

01:21:50
I noticed a lot last week when they were announcing new features and saying and there's an API where it used to be sort of like a new feature and then wait a year or two or three or four, and then maybe there'll be an API and I think that that's good.

01:22:02
But also, look, they're not going to say it, but I know a lot of developers feel it. If they don't feel the love, necessarily, they feel the generosity here, where Apple is saying, yes, we want to give you tools so that your apps can be good on our platform. Now we can all say, of course, that is one of the ways that Apple can make its platform stronger is by letting its app developers make better apps. But there have been times when it felt like Apple wasn't doing that. And this year I know a lot of developers are like, really excited. They're not excited about the new design mostly because it will cause them to do more work this summer on the new design, but they are excited about things like access to all these different ML models that Apple has just given them. It's because it reduces an amount of overhead that makes it kind of unlikely in a lot of circumstances for apps to innovate on this platform and instead it makes it pretty easy for them to do it.

01:22:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's pretty exciting. So your headline, Apple, gets over its hangups with the iPad really may be more than just the iPad.

01:23:01 - Jason Snell (Host)
Maybe. So I mean certainly with the ML stuff, the fact that the Xcode will use any AI model you want, including ones not yet developed, right?

01:23:10
Like it'll, you can plug it in in three months or six months or nine months, If a hot new model comes out, you just plug in the API key and the URL or something you build locally and it'll just work that key in the URL or something you build locally, and it'll just work. That is a. That is a very clear change from a year ago, when they're like we are working on one model for Xcode. Now it's like any model bring your own model to Xcode.

01:23:31 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They have one humbled. They have one that's baked by all this.

01:23:34 - Jason Snell (Host)
Oh, and I'll say that the Xcode one you know they have a pre-baked version that they worked on with OpenAI that uses ChatGBT, but it's a very specific version that is going to be the best with Swift code and Xcode and like, yeah, I feel like they were humbled by last year and I think that there were maybe some executives who were like no, we will do it all ourselves and we will dominate. And then, after what's happened in the last year, other people at Apple have said what we should do is be more open, because there's a lot of great stuff out there and we could use it and it makes our products better, it makes our platform better. It doesn't all have to be from us and you know, I definitely had people at Apple say we don't have to do everything here, and last year it sure felt like they had to do everything. So this is better, it's better everything.

01:24:23 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So this is better. It's better, as Andy pointed out. He can now use his MUT text-based email in Apple's terminal and not feel bad about it. Apple, weirdly I don't know why, because there's so many third-party terminal apps, including the very popular iTerm but Apple has updated the terminal app even.

01:24:39 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, I think this is because sometimes you see evidence that, uh, apple, apple's own developers, apple's own engineers like I'm sick and tired of using our built, but that our built-in app that I have to use all the time stinks, I'm going to add features just for me, to make me happy maybe that's what happened yeah, I mean, I haven't checked it myself, but a couple other people are saying that this is the literally the first time they've updated the terminal app in any meaningful way since I only use it when I, when, for some reason, I term or alacrity or kitty or uh.

01:25:09 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I lately I've been using ghost tty when those aren't for some reason available. Uh, you know, maybe I'll start using apple's terminal app. Same thing with spotlight. I've been using raycast and alfred and launch bar. I don't know if I need all those extra features I might. Spotlight looks like it might be plenty. It's really a change. Yeah, it's good. Apple was getting a reputation for not doing well with software, to be frank, uh, and I think that might be changing yeah, again at exciting times.

01:25:38 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I mean well, if I as I'm. This is fresh on my mind because today I borrowed from this library the new book on Apple in China and had to return it today because it was due even though I hadn't quite finished it yet. It's a good book. I'm going to have to buy it.

01:25:55
But one of the fun parts of the first quarter of it is just the history of Apple and dogma that was kind of handicapping them from the beginning, and one of them was like an exchange between Steve Jobs and someone else at the company saying why are we letting third party developers make money off of our work? We resent that and sometimes you see again, that was a long, long time ago, that was like back in the 90s. But sometimes you feel as though there's some residue of that cigarette smoke in the wallpaper and it feels like that's absolutely going away, especially with what they're doing here. The ability to simply I don't think it could be overstated how important it is to allow developers to have access to these models directly To simply say, no, I'm not going to simply support an Apple intelligence feature that's on the side of the box that Apple is promoting, that helps to promote Apple. I just want my app to be better.

01:26:48
Wouldn't be great if we could extract text from something that's going on, not to do simply speech to text and make that a feature, but so that we can now examine the text with another LLM, make a decision that benefits the user all as something that is a feature inside our app. That would have been so many hours of development, such a huge distraction before WWDC 2025. Now I'm sure it's getting a lot of developers thinking what is now possible? We will make time because, my God, wouldn't that be a great transformative feature for our scheduler and organizer?

01:27:20 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, we've definitely talked to some developers who are definitely looking at the AI solutions. Even though they're not as robust as some of the other ones, they're great to solve a bunch of simple.

01:27:28 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, they're free, they're on device there's a lot.

01:27:30
There's a lot you know they're not going to be the solution for everything, but they can be the solution for a lot of things. And being able Like if you're thinking like, oh well, I could do AI, but I'm going to either need to include a model and then update it all the time, or I'm going to have to go out to the cloud, but then I'm going to need to get an API key and it changes my business model Instead, it's sort of like no, I'm just going to do a thing on the phone using the phone's processor and we don't even need to talk about what it is. It just happens on device. That is great, and Apple also is going to keep updating those models. And every time Apple updates that model and makes it better, all the apps that use the model get better, and that's pretty great too.

01:28:07
I wanted to, since this has turned into a love fest, I'll just say, for those of us who really love the Mac and I think all of us here fall in that category that spotlight thing that Andy mentioned, the fact that one of the major features at WWDC is that they took not just terminal, but they took spotlight and they did pro things to spotlight, power user features to spotlight and I asked, I asked some Apple people. I was like you know, do you think this spotlight feature is going to be like embraced by the masses? And they said no, of course not. It's a power user feature. But there's value in exposing the power of our system in places that we control, like Spotlight and the idea that they've got the quick keys and they've got app intents and they've got a clipboard manager. It's literally in the entire 41 year history of the Mac.

01:28:53
Apple has never let you look backward in time on the clipboard. That has only been if you add a third party app, been if you add a third party app. And yet in mac os 26, tahoe boom, clipboard history is a feature that's built into spotlight and like a couple of keystrokes and you've got a clipboard history like those are like. I would never have bet that apple would double down on power user features in spotlight on the mac, but they did and that is a. For me, that is such a great sign that there are people at Apple who are being allowed. There've always been people at Apple who love the Mac and want the Mac to be great. The people at Apple who love the Mac, want it to be great and are being allowed to do stuff like that again.

01:29:37 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
And it's smart because it so ties you into the operating system, because you get good at those things. And now you're really. This is how you do those things. We were talking on office hours a couple of days ago and someone asked me how much I use PCs and other things. I said I have PCs, I have a couple over here and I've got some Linux boxes, but they're all appliances to me. I use them as appliances. There's things that they do. That's because they are the only thing that does that and that's why they do that, I said.

01:30:08
But my entire environment is is is a Mac and it's. And here's the thing. It's just because of notes. Literally, notes is the glue. It seems like such a basic app that we have here, but it is on all of my computers and I'm able to keep sync wherever I'm taking notes and wherever I'm putting things down and whatever I'm taking pictures of or whatever I'm throwing in. All of that stuff is all in across all of these platforms and it's so. I can't even imagine like, every time I go to a PC, I suddenly realized I don't, my notes is my other part of my brain and I'm like I don't, I can't operate for very long, and I so I think that when they make these things something that seems simple, like notes or like spotlight, really, really powerful, and they continue to invest in it, it definitely the sticky factor gets much higher too.

01:30:52 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, and let's squeeze in one last thing about the ability, one of the knock-on effects of developers being able to implement like Apple's on-device built-in, like AI models, as opposed to having to go out for a license key to have to go out to other apps and other services. This means that they get to allow, they get to keep, like their privacy nutrition sticker. They don't have to say oh, by the way, we're sending some of your data out to a third party. Please don't be scared by that. If you you click through, you will find out that it's actually just not as bad as it sounds. But this is now just no. We we only we are only using and trusting apple's own on-device stuff, so we don't have to put anything that's kind of scary uh into the into our app store, uh, app store listing by the way, there's there's one great quote in apple and china I.

01:31:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I'm really enjoying the book, because there have been a lot of books about the origin story of Apple, but it's Apple later, after Steve Jobs came back. The triumph yes, yeah, the triumph, and so it's something that hasn't been that well documented and there's a lot of interesting things in there.

01:32:00 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
If we don't close this deal, you don't understand, don't negotiate with us on the sale of this, of this facility if we don't close the sale by Thursday, nobody gets paid.

01:32:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, what a great story. Close they were yeah what a great story.

01:32:13 - Jason Snell (Host)
He's like you're threatening my paycheck. He's like, no, I'm saying we won't be able to pay anyone of our paychecks all of your factory now.

01:32:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Scott McNeely this is also quoted in McGee's book, highly recommended. Apple in China once likened Dell to a grocery store. He said they're not in the PC business any more than Safeway's in the food manufacturing business and I think that's a very big distinction between the PC makers, those appliance makers, alex, that you were talking about, and apple. Apple really takes ownership of the whole chain. They are growing the food.

01:32:48 - Jason Snell (Host)
Yeah, I think one of the insights I mean, look, there are a lot of insights in that book. I really highly recommend it to everyone. One of, obviously, the headline story is how apple got further and further kind of enmeshed in china, to the point where it's going to be almost impossible for them to get out, and how they were, at the same time, also basically creating skills that will allow China to be excel at electronics manufacturing for decades to come. Apple and Apple's always kind of been this way, but even more so now. Apple has this like. Apple has a vision for what products it wants to make.

01:33:28
And so many of the tech companies that don't have visions for products. They are assembling parts. Parts are available, they buy the parts, they put them together. If they put them on a circuit board, they buy a screen, they get a chassis and they assemble them. And you can see that for the last 25 years, apple has these designers who are like this is what we want to build. And then they go to manufacturers and basically make them invent processes, or they invent processes to do it from cutting glass to making different parts out of different materials, to do it from cutting glass to making different parts out of different materials and like.

01:34:09
It's a real contrast and it's why Apple has been so successful in so many different ways is that Apple culturally seems to just be unwilling to be told no, you can't do that. And if they are told they can't do it, they're like, okay, we're going to send some guys and we're going to figure out how to do it. And then we're going, then we're gonna do it. And and and sometimes, like in the early days with the iMac uh, the original G3 iMac, you know, they had a whole prototype and and the manufacturing guy comes back and says we can't make this. It's not the physics of it, the head handle will just fly right off. We can't make it. And and Jobs is like get out of here. You're gonna be. You know, pack your bags, you're out of here. He's're going to be. You know, pack your bags, you're out of here. He's bringing, bringing the next guy.

01:34:42
And the next guy bringing my expert from, and he comes in and he's and he looks at it and he goes to Steve and he's like Steve, well, as a physics, the guy was right, you can't do it. And then they're like okay, get Johnny Ivan here, get Johnny Ivan here. And then Johnny was like, over the years, you can see them building this, this uh whole process where, like, instead of saying that glass on the iPhone is impossible, you can't make it like that because nobody's done it, they say this is how we want it, now let's figure out how to make it. And then they do, and then everybody else can make it too. Right, because that knowledge is out there. And like I hadn't really thought about Apple in that way and that is absolutely a thing that's been consistent, for a couple of decades at least, with them is they are just not willing to settle for stuff that's not good enough for them, and if they want to make something new and interesting and fancy, they'll just force it to exist in the world. It's wild, wild stuff.

01:35:52 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
And that was part of the irony of, again, the book. It's not only lots of great information. There are a lot of business books that contain a lot of good information. This one tells a really good linear story and it points out the irony that one of the things that sunk Apple in the 80s was that they did have that idea of we're going to build exactly what we want using components that only we have and only we can manufacture it. Meanwhile, ibm said yeah, you know what, let's subcontract out a special team that says build us, design us a PC made of off-the-shelf components that we can source from anywhere that can be built anywhere and, as a result, they were able to. They didn't have half the troubles that Apple was having trying to build, assemble, test, configure and ship everything that they were trying to ship at the same time. It's one of the reasons why the ibm pc as much as steve jobs, disdained it for being tacky immediately.

01:36:48 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Uh, ate the lunch of the apple 2 in the mac mac break weekly on the air alex lindsey, andy and ako jason snell. We're glad you're here. If you're not yet a member of the club, well, you should thank a club member for making this show possible. 25% of our revenue, our operating costs, now come from the club and it's such an important part of keeping Twit and the whole network going and keeping the shows on and paying our wonderful contributors, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Advertising goes a long way 75% but it's not the whole thing. If you would like to join the club, we would sure love to have you, and it's not just your 10 bucks that we want. We want you as part of our Club Twit Discord, which is a great hang for all the people in the club, pretty great place to be with the shows and with special shows and programming things like our coverage of the keynotes at WWDC, build, google, io. You also get ad free versions of everything we do, because I hate it when somebody's charges you money and then shows you an ad too. That's we're not. No, I won't do it. So we cut out the ads so you don't have to listen to ads. You don't even have to listen to this plug and you just get that warm and fuzzy feeling that you're helping us do content that you love. If you listen to a show or two, I think it's worth 10 bucks a month. I hope you do too.

01:38:12
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01:39:04 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I wanted to talk about the custom iphone camera that apple built for the f1 movie. So, uh, wired had a really fun, really interesting article about it. That really shows how committed and involved apple is on some of their own produced movies. It it describes that for the on-car footage they were getting, f1 cars have an actual TV camera.

01:39:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They have many cameras. They have a helmet cam, they have a driver's point of view. Last weekend I saw I've never seen it before a camera view of the wheel. Well, so part of those are for, of course, the teams to keep an eye on what's going on, and part of it is for the cover for broadcast, but none of them are like film quality.

01:39:51 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
So Apple actually built a camera that is completely identical in weight and aerodynamics and shape to the standard onboard camera, so it wouldn't affect the dynamics of the cars that it was mounted on. But essentially they rebuilt and redesigned what they think is probably an iphone 15. Uh, with the same lens, same battery, same everything into this, this hardware notice it's aerodynamic, it's actually a wing.

01:40:17
Yeah, exactly, again, it's the exact same pod that they put. That is standard on f1 cars. Because, again, they could not change the weight, they could not change the airflow or anything. It was controlled via USB-C. So they plug an iPad into it to change the camera settings and things like that.

01:40:33
One interesting tidbit was I'm going to quote here they, of course, created custom firmware for it for the needs of the production course, created custom firmware for it for the needs of the production, uh, and this custom firmware inevitably led to, inevitably led to two new features and the iphone 15 pro log and coding and the support for the academy color, color encoding system, color workflow. So these were built for this custom camera and then they said, hey, let's just port this over and make this an iphone 15 feature. It's a really interesting. It shows you exactly how this wasn't. Just they wrote a check and hey, wow, great, we get to have our picture taken. Tim Cook gets to have his picture taken with Lewis Hamilton.

01:41:11
Obviously, the marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing hype is they're making Tim Cook and a whole bunch of other people available for all kinds of interviews. There's a really long one in Variety, for instance. So obviously, obviously, this is part of the hype, but it is really interesting to say no, they even went so far as that. No, we will, we will lend our engineers to build, to build you a camera based on the iphone. Uh, if that's what you need to get, make this happen, that is they did a funny thing too with the trailer.

01:41:36 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
If you watch it in the apple tv app, they use the haptics of the phone it's actually pretty interesting it I it was one of those things like it didn't work all the time, but but there was enough of it I was like, oh, that's kind of cool.

01:41:50
I don't know if I'd want to watch a whole movie that way, but as a trailer or commercial it was kind of fun. Uh, I, I do feel like it was like they turned something like vibrate here, vibrate there, vibrate, more or less. Right, it'd be really fun to connect some kind of sensor to the, to like the, the to the car itself, um, and then measure the vibrations and then turn those back into vibrations on the phone for certain things like to, so to feel.

01:42:16 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Even it didn't feel quite like that's what they did, like it what it made me think about is remember the like that william castle movie, like the tingler, where they put like seat buzzers, like what if? Like they made so you can put your, you can put your phone underneath your, underneath your seat, underneath your seat, cushion, and it's linked to what you're watching on your apple tv.

01:42:33 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
You're gonna have a whole yeah I have to.

01:42:37 - Leo Laporte (Host)
My neighbor works at lucas sound and he, I remember a few months ago, was working on the trailer. I wonder if they built that into the soundtrack for apple so that there's so that there's vibration. I don't know, I'll ask.

01:42:48 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I don't think, yeah, I don't think there's a, I don't think it's publicly available to be able to do that with anything. I think that it's it's a custom. It's a custom thing right now for apple, but I, but it does feel like they. I hopefully for them F1 is successful because man, they put, they went all in.

01:43:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Two hundred million dollars plus. No one really knows the real cost of it. That's a lot of money to get a picture with Lewis Hamilton, but he but he looks so badass.

01:43:14 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
The variety article is worth watching just to see how badass Tim Cook looks, and not just because he's standing as one of the coolest men in the world, right now, lewis is not only a seven-time, uh, champion of f1, he's also a fashion icon and, yeah, and he's, he's a great guy and uh, that that's pretty cool.

01:43:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So, uh, the movie comes out in just a few days, june 27th. I wish I were able to get imax tickets, but, as you pointed out a few weeks ago, alex, uh, there's only one imax theater in our area and it sells out instantly, it's like in seconds, yeah, seconds it's a pretty hard, uh hard thing to get good seats there.

01:43:54 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, the, but I think it's going to be interesting to you know. I think that what people all often get caught up in is this whole like well, how well did it do at the box office? Doesn't really matter. Like the box office yes, ravey, you know it's. It's like man, I'll get some of the money back. But that's not why they're doing it. I mean, they're doing it to position what they're. You know it's positioning the channel and you know, while this is, you know, apple may be behind.

01:44:17
Right now, one of the things that we're seeing is that, if you look at the data for a lot of these shows, people are basically gravitating to really high quality shows and YouTube. So if you're making schlocky kind of in between, like $75,000 a minute, you're in that's. That's like a not a great place to be anymore. You know because and so Apple's pathway of we're going to spend a lot of money on on high quality stuff has turned out. I don't think when they started it, it looked as smart as it does now, which is that they're they're hitting the high mark on lots of their movies and and they're going to probably f1 is probably one of the final. I mean, they're not going to do very, they're going to do like one.

01:44:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It feels like they're going to do one or two of these a year this is the biggest push I've seen for a movie since wicked since last year and I was.

01:45:03 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
You know wicked was so over, and that usually means that they feel, feel like they have something you know, yeah, they're not gonna spend that money unless it's gonna be. You watch a lot of you can tell what happens when, like, everyone's talking about something and then suddenly all the pr disappears. That means somebody saw it and was like, let's move that to february. You know, like know, eddie.

01:45:19 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Q says he's got different goals. I hope when people go see the movie they walk out wanting to be a race car driver okay. Tim's quote from this Variety article is it's the perfect V and this is really interesting the perfect vehicle to test Apple's power to affect culture. Yeah, uh, yeah, I mean I think that if you, that's interesting you know, because f1 is trying to push into the united states.

01:45:45 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
They're, they're doing more races here, um, and suddenly, if there's some kind of major uptick or major change in interest, I think that's what they're trying to measure. You know, as far as like two people, because I'm like, I'm a good example, like I, I don't, I barely know the difference between f1 and indy. Like you know, they're fast cars, but if you talk to someone from F1 and you mention Indy, they're like oh, come on now.

01:46:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I was on a cruise with the Stig from you know, yeah, the original Stig and there were a number of Brits on the cruise ship who were really miffed that America had Miami, austin and Las Vegas when legendary tracks like Silverstone were struggling to keep their franchise for F1 races. But Liberty Media, an American company, owns Formula One, so there's a reason for it. In fact, liberty's the rights for this. Uh, in the us are up. Espn has them right now, but they're up at the end of this year, this season, and, uh, I'd be very interested to see if apple I think this would be, you know, as much as major league soccer was a big deal for apple, this could be a really big deal for apple yeah, the variety article is very much worth reading because, again, pretty making sure, make sure you keep it in context that Tim Cook and Eddie Cue are being interviewed to promote a movie and to promote Apple, so this is a very, very beneficial thing.

01:47:10
Every race has 28 cameras running simultaneously 5,000 hours of film. I mean this is a big business.

01:47:19 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
This is a big business he's saying, but in the interviews he's basically talking about how this is sort of an offshoot of what we do at Apple, where we can't I know he doesn't say this explicitly, but he knows that we can't get like 82% market share like Windows or other platforms can we want to do something that is special and unique and at the intersection of liberal arts and engineering? I don't have that before.

01:47:41
Exactly. I don't have it in my mind. I'm going to sell more iphones because of it, cook says. I don't think about that. I think about it as a business and just like we leverage the best of apple across iphones and across our services, we try to leverage the best of apple tv plus yeah, I'm not a gearhead.

01:47:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I don't like the smell of fossil fuels burning in the sun, but something about f1 attracted me. It's it's high tech, it's high drama, um, and I think the drive to survive show on netflix probably apple looked at that and said that thing's doing well and I think, I think that ford versus ferrari.

01:48:17 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
You know, I didn't that was a great movie.

01:48:18 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I didn't expect to like that movie.

01:48:20 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
It was like it just sat there waiting for a year for me to watch it, you know like, and then finally I watched it. I was like, oh, it was pretty good, and so I think that. But I, man, I do think it'll be really interesting to see if Apple keeps on running with this. But I think they're also, I think, one of the reasons they jumped in so much access. I think that was part of the front end. You give Apple access and look at what we do.

01:48:43 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Brad Pitt was on the track.

01:48:46 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
They had their own paddock at all these races.

01:48:49 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It was amazing. One of Red Bull's drivers, yuki Tsunoda, said I enjoyed racing with Brad Pitt, but for some reason he was always ahead of me. F1 drivers do not like to be second, that's for sure. F1 drivers do not like to be second. He did not, he did not, he did not.

01:49:04 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
You undergo a lot of training and a lot of a lot of exercise. He did not have the handsomeness training required.

01:49:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Although, if you look at this, picture from the Variety article of Tim Cook with Brad Pitt and Lewis Hamilton. Tim's much more enamored of Lewis than he is of Pitt. It's pretty funny.

01:49:22 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
They did a surprise drop in at an apple event to promote uh, severance as a matter of fact. Which makes which makes you think that brad pitt was a maybe for the event and so they wouldn't.

01:49:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They didn't want to promote it beforehand, but yeah, it's a big picture of so many smiling apple employee faces in the group and who was at the uh canadian uh Grand Prix uh this past weekend, but Ben Stiller, of all people highlighted many times in the broadcast.

01:49:48 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
For some reason, yeah, the variety article actually talked to. Anybody who has a successful show on Apple TV and who has not given an interview in the last two, three years about how horrible their experience was with with producing something for Apple TV is quoted and talked to in this article.

01:50:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, yeah, it's really our platform get ready for the hype train.

01:50:08 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I will say that I I actually know some people pretty well that work on some of the apple stuff and I'm always surprised when people say, oh, it was horrible to work on the apple thing, because they're like, oh my gosh, like working on an apple movie is for at least the guys below the line, and're like everything is done the way it's supposed to be done.

01:50:23
The catering is pretty good, they said no, no, just like but. But the production is, the schedule makes sense, the budget makes sense, everything makes sense, everything. And then they, they go, but they.

01:50:32 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I had a friend who, who, went from a Apple TV production to H. It was like dropping off a cliff, yeah.

01:50:44 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
It was like it was like, you know, like it was like the Apple ones are hard, they're still hard work, they're still long hours, but everything is just working, you know, because someone said, oh, we need a little more money for this or we need to do it, and someone said, okay, right, you know.

01:50:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And we've always said this, that Apple doesn't need to make money in their productions. It's about a much larger strategy. So they have a real advantage over Apple and Amazon. So yeah, and Amazon, so solar solo streamers like Disney, I mean. I guess it promotes the park, I don't know.

01:51:09 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I mean, I think that I think that Apple, amazon, netflix, just because of its sheer size, apple and Amazon are the. Those are the three that I feel like are a lock to do this for quite some time. Yeah, I think disney and max are probably the next two, and then after that I think it gets real dark, real quick. You know like it's, you know well even max, which is now re-christened.

01:51:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I keep on trying to figure it out, as, spun off the streamers, they say go away, go away. Uh, we don't want any of these anchors on our business. No, that's.

01:51:36 - Jason Snell (Host)
That's not true. The the guy who spun it all off. He's staying with the studio and the streamers, and they spun off a cable company. That's what I mean. While they're profitable, they are going to decline in assets no, that's what I load them up with. That, yeah, the cnn and the like, yeah yeah, there's too many, there's too many, and there's going to be consolidation for sure.

01:51:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
But nobody's watching tv. Did you see that? Uh, latest, for the first time ever, new york times, more people watched streaming than watched all network television combined.

01:52:05 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Yeah, streaming 45% versus 44% for broadcast and cable combined. That's the first time it's ever happened.

01:52:11 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
And when you dig into it the number one thing that they're watching among those things, because a lot of times they don't include YouTube into it, but YouTube scales out everybody.

01:52:19 - Jason Snell (Host)
And.

01:52:19 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I get up every morning, like I get up to bike every morning, and all I'm watching is YouTube. I'm just bouncing around YouTube, one thing after another.

01:52:27
So, what's Apple's YouTube strategy? I don't think there is that. I think that they're they're moving as far away from YouTube as possible, which is that we're going to spend a lot of money on things and have it be really, really high end, and you know so. We're the place that you go when you, because we're more and more where I find myself going for a really high quality. You know, non YouTube experience is Apple TV. You know, like Murderbot is like a destination for my family.

01:52:50 - Jason Snell (Host)
It's a really good show it is so good it drives me crazy that it's every week.

01:52:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And it's only like 22 minutes every week. It drives me crazy.

01:52:57 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
What makes me sad is that the model works so well that you know that we're now going to go to weekly. We're going to go back to the old days of weekly 22 minute episodes. Because because they can spend less money and hold you longer for a subscription, you know. So I understand why they're doing it, but it's still like oh, you know from the variety article.

01:53:15 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Cook believes strongly the road to success is focusing on achieving the except exceptional. Apple products have to be great, not just good. The movie business is no different. Quote we really only do a few things. We have a few products for the size of the company we are. We pour all of ourselves into each one of these and we do TV and movies the same way.

01:53:36 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Well, and I think that there are so many things that Apple has not started to milk out of this system, which is that they don't have to milk ads like Amazon. What they have is a headset that could give you immersive scenes. They have interactive components that could be added. They have behind there's all these other things that Apple could be doing that I feel like they're not. You know, they're barely touching what they can do if they actually build all this kind of content that people want to want to see and want to see the behind the scenes of, and all those other things.

01:54:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, all right, let's take our final break. Get your picks of the week ready. You're watching Mac break weekly. Andy and Ako. Alex Lindsay. Jason Snell no beards in a bunch, although I bet you those sideburns might cause some difficulties. Andy in a bunch, although I bet you those sideburns might cause some difficulties.

01:54:24 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Andy, I don't know what the vision is. I should, I should, I should tap into the frame who owns one? And try and try to borrow it again.

01:54:28 - Leo Laporte (Host)
See what happens.

01:54:29 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
So don't have 3,500 bucks to spend on a on a on a headset, but.

01:54:32 - Jason Snell (Host)
I think actually you've got the clear part that is necessary which is the under the, the under the nose. Uh angle is solid there. That's a good that's a good.

01:54:39 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
That's a good point. So if it screws up my face, I know that's been done out of spite it's aimed at you, I am.

01:54:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So I am this close to buying a vision pro. They've slowly added enough things that it go, I go.

01:54:52 - Jason Snell (Host)
Oh, it might be I hear there's some pretty good deals on use vision pros out there.

01:54:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I bet there are yeah, I bet there are uh all right. Well, we'll see.

01:55:00 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I it's not quite there yet wow, this battery's only been recharged four times, according to sam wow all I gotta do is just take your favorite movie and watch it on a vision pro.

01:55:09 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Just watch the whole thing and then decide whether you want. I like to watch movies with my wife. That's the difference. I watch it with other people, but I I fly, I do other things and I like I'm in hotel rooms and it's nice.

01:55:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, I understand, I understand if you traveled a lot, that would be a great thing.

01:55:23 - Jason Snell (Host)
I was watching a movie this morning for a podcast after my wife left for work and I had a little bit of time cause I'm cramming, cause we're doing it tonight, and I watched it in vision pro and with a giant. You know giants much bigger than my TV and I'm like that's pretty good.

01:55:38 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
It's like a 20, it's like a 20 foot. It's a 20 foot monitor, not like a 20 foot soft screen. It is like 20. Sharper than I mean. I spend a lot of time in theater theaters sharper than the theater screen it is. It is very, very sharp.

01:55:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Maybe I'll buy it to watch F1. Cause I can't get the IMAX tickets.

01:55:58 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I'm still going to try to go, or Superman, you just I'm still going to try to go, or Superman, you just have to go on like a Monday afternoon. Yeah, I can do that.

01:56:05 - Leo Laporte (Host)
If you get tickets, let me know. Add one for Leo, we'll go together.

01:56:10 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I saw you hanging with Rene Ritchie last week they uh, loria and Rene and a couple other folks came over to the house so we did some sous vide and some veggies and some. That's great, I got to hang out. It was great, in case people don't know.

01:56:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Loria petrucci and renee ritchie are an item so yeah nice we had it.

01:56:33 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
We had a great time.

01:56:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
How fun uh, this is mac break weekly. Uh, I am leo. You are watching twit. We're so glad to have you Now for the picks of the week. Who should I start with today? How about me? What? What? No, I couldn't, I couldn't. No, really Me, you want me to do it? Oh, I couldn't, I couldn't.

01:57:00 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Don't hide your light under a bushel. Leo.

01:57:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Actually I'm stalling because I forgot what it was. I know I wrote something down, I know it was a good one.

01:57:08 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Hand it to somebody else and then we'll come back to you.

01:57:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Leo's pick. Let me see if I can find it in my bookmarks. Do you remember Anthony?

01:57:18 - Jason Snell (Host)
Skeptical look from Anthony.

01:57:21 - Leo Laporte (Host)
All right, jason Snell, what's your pick of the week?

01:57:26 - Jason Snell (Host)
I had a friend who just bought a new electric car and she was asking about, um, car charging stuff, because these days, eventually it's going to get clear, but right now it's still kind of confusing. A lot of people with electric cars have uh, it's a non-tesla. It comes with a fast charger called a CCS port, but in the United States they're going to all eventually turn over to be NACS, which is what we think of as the Tesla plug, which is a better plug because it's smaller, but as a result, we're going to be living in Dongle Town forever with electric cars. The good news is that, even though the Tesla plug is different, there are adapters, and Tesla has opened a large portions of its network, its supercharger network, to non-Teslas. And the problem is that how do you find where to go If you've got a non-Tesla? Where do you go to get a fast charge on the road, and which Tesla chargers are open and which ones are not, and what CCS chargers are out there and what are available for you?

01:58:32
And so the answer is PlugShare, which is a great app. That is a database of chargers and you can set filters based on what your car is and you can say show me, I have a non-Tesla, but show me, you know I have a non-tesla. But show me ccs and tesla because I have an adapter and uh, and so this is what I told my friend is like, plug share is the answer here. I've used it. Every charger it's got details of, like, what the plugs are, how many are there? What's around there? Um, people can send photos so you can see, like, is this, you know, a in a dirt hole or is there, are there, is there stuff around it? What's going on there? Like?

01:59:07
There's an iPhone app, it's a website. It is whether you've got, no matter what you've got. If you've got an EV, this is the app to use because it's not tied to one network or even one plug type. So if you have an adapter, you check in your little filter and say, yes, I've got a Chevy bolt, but I also have a CCS to NACS adapter, so you can show me, uh, nacs plugging plug stations as well. And, uh, I just this is the resource. Uh, I answered her question, so I thought I would mention it here. I keep it on my phone at all times because I have electric cars and sometimes you want to know where to charge and it's gotten more confusing in a good way, because opening that Tesla network means that there are a lot of other cars, that there's way more Tesla chargers than there are non-Tesla chargers in the United States.

01:59:57 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And they all work.

01:59:59 - Jason Snell (Host)
And they all work. And at the Tesla charger, you'll find 16 or 24 chargers or maybe eight. And at the other one Electrify charger, you'll find 16 or 24 chargers or maybe eight. And at the other one, Electrify America, you'll find two. So now that that network is open, it can be part of your strategy, depending on where you need to go, to go from point A to point B, especially if you get an adapter. So PlugShare is great because it's not tied to any one network. It just wants to have all the data about all the different chargers that are out there, and I find it incredibly useful. Even now when there's more EV charging stuff in Maps apps. It's a good purpose-built tool.

02:00:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Yeah, for free, and you should probably know that most people who have electric cars charge at home almost always, right yeah that's a good public service.

02:00:44 - Jason Snell (Host)
Everybody freaks out about road trips what am I gonna do?

02:00:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
what am I gonna do? The?

02:00:47 - Jason Snell (Host)
truth is that you've charged at home and, in fact, there was a great video on one of my favorite youtube channels, technology connections um where he talked about and made a very good point, which is it also doesn't need to be the super max fast. Uh. Uh, charging at home. Uh, electric cars will charge on a regular plug.

02:01:04 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, but it takes a long time.

02:01:07 - Jason Snell (Host)
It takes a long time, but if you're driving 40 or 50 miles a day, it's enough, even on a regular plug, that's a good point. And this video is like. You also don't necessarily need the full number of amps.

02:01:20 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I found my app, by the way, oh.

02:01:23 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I know what your pick is. I know exactly what it is.

02:01:26 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Did you hear that, sega? Does it give you chills?

02:01:31 - Jason Snell (Host)
so anyway, that's that's, that's my pick is is uh, but yes, remember that mostly you charge at home yes, I agree, and that's a good pick.

02:01:39 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Well, I didn't know, you had electric vehicle. What do you drive?

02:01:42 - Jason Snell (Host)
we, we got a che Bolt. We had a Nissan.

02:01:44 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Leaf for a long time.

02:01:46 - Jason Snell (Host)
And the Nissan Leaf doesn't go very far anymore. It's 13 years old, so we got a Chevy Bolt. Very nice, good car.

02:01:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
This might bring back some memories, Andy. So Sega has decided to get out of the iPhone business.

02:02:05 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
They're turning off their servers it's a taxi, but somehow I don't think that man has full control of his faculty.

02:02:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It's a crazy taxi it's a crazy taxi aka the tesla auto taxi server sega has announced that it's discontinuing support for the nine retro games that ported some years ago to ios and android. 2, by the way, uh, including crazy taxi, streets of rage classic and two super monkey ball, great game, virtua tennis challenge, golden axe classics, shining four classics. I got both the sonic sonic cd and Sonic the Hedgehog 4, episode 2. The servers for uh, you know, I guess, communal play are gone, but the games are now free. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You might want to, um, you might want to quickly, before they take them off the store, get all those classic Segas what a friendly gesture that was, not to simply like pull up and say hey by the way we're gonna it's a land, grab it's, it's, it's like.

02:03:13 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
It's like when you're moving, when a store is moving out of like this property, saying, yeah, by the way, we're gonna be leaving behind a whole lot of really cool stuff, just go and grab it.

02:03:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I love Crazy Taxi. Anyway, you know you need this on your iPad. You can crash into things, it rocks, it's fun and you're a crazy taxi. Andy Anako, your picks of the week.

02:03:35 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I'm so happy to make this recommendation. One of my favorite comics and it's been one of my favorites for almost no, probably as long as I've been reading comics is stan sakai's usagi ojimbo and he's been. It's the same single person writing, drawing, lettering every single step of the way. A consistently told series of easy to easy to assimilate stories. It's not part of this huge, like multi, multi-dimensional universe where it's like a soap opera. Dropping in each of these stories is pretty much designed so that you can drop in at the start of the story of one of these stories at any point and you can simply pick it up as you go. It's a. Essentially it's set in feudal japan during the edo period, where there's a samurai who has lost his ronin he's a ron, he's lost his

02:04:24
master in battle, and now he's doing the warrior's pilgrimage, going from town to town to town, village to village, occasionally hiring his swords out, sometimes just simply getting caught up in a situation, sometimes seeking out good things to do, running into an amazing amount of characters along the way. You're going to notice that it is Isaki Ujimbo is a rabbit. Please don't think that that's weird. It's just think about it. Those of us who are big fans of it and try to encourage people to understand that this is like a really good, mature, grown-up story. It's like imagine like this is a theatrical performance in which the performers are wearing animal masks to convey, like on the Lion King, the stage version, like, okay, just go with that.

02:05:10
But the great way to convince you to do it is that there's a humble bundle of Usagi Ojimbo trade paperbacks. That is, you can pay $1, $10, or $18 for a book. You get two really good books For $18,. You get like a big, whole collection of them and all of the money that gets collected is contributed to a very good cause, the Hero Initiative, which is a charitable organization that takes care of comic book creators who have fallen on hard times, as creative people often do, particularly later in life and you'll get open non-DRM I think PDFs of each of these books in full color, full resolution that you can load on your iPad, load on absolutely anything. And I could not have spent like that $18 fast enough to get like the huge multi-volume collection Because, like I said, you don't.

02:06:00
It's not like wait a minute, okay, that's Spider-Man, but that's not Spider-Man. Spider-man, oh well, that's the spider-man from universe 21, 22 and you have to understand that in this one. No, it's like if you have never, if these stories are like have going on for 30 years, whether you read like the second book or the 40th book, you can start at page one and uh and and uh. Stansakai will basically ease you into the story and it's just beautifully done. It's probably the one comic that if I had to give up every other comic in my collection and just have this collection because they're just so immensely satisfying. And, of course, the next issue of Saga Yujimbo comes out tomorrow. As a matter of fact, it's like part four of a five-part storyline and, again, they're so well done. So this is one. This is what happens when one creator has absolute control over something, keeps his eyes on the prize, a high level of quality and never hands it off to somebody who doesn't know what they're doing or doesn't know what the character is. It's just masterfully done what do you?

02:07:04 - Leo Laporte (Host)
just to keep us up to date? What do you read?

02:07:06 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
uh, your comics on nowadays uh, I read it on my iPad and I use an app called panels because I do. I'll. I'll make a confession here. Uh, the comixology app, when it was comixology, was very good. It wasn't perfect, but it was very good. Uh, when, when Amazon bought Comixology and then later on killed the custom bespoke comic book reading app and said, oh, we'll just add a few comic book reading features to the standard Kindle app, it just absolutely tanked. Thank you, amazon. Once again, comics every single week. And then I outsource a non-DRM copy of that same comic so I can read it in panels, which is a properly created experience for reading and organizing comic books.

02:07:54
The Kindle app is borderline unusable and I've always held that. So long as you have paid for this content, you shouldn't be required to pay extra to read it on another device or to read it in the way that you need to be able to read it. And again, if the Kindle app were even three quarters as good as the Comixology app, I probably wouldn't even bother to do this. I would simply okay, purchase, download. Good, I'll deal with it. But it's so terrible that I don't have any ethical qualms whatsoever and I know I'm supporting pirate sites by doing this, but I don't have an ethical issue with it, since I'm actually paying for this stuff.

02:08:34 - Leo Laporte (Host)
There's probably software that can remove the DRM, I would guess.

02:08:37 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
That's more difficult now because Amazon removed the feature where you can simply download. Oh, that's right, they used to be able to download the DRM file. And then, of course, as Jason has very very nobly documented on Six Colors.

02:08:52
There are tools that will remove the DRM, but that's why I was abusing the one gigabit internet here in the library over the course of a week to download all 3,000 of my purchased titles, to make sure that I could at least, like at some later date, strip the drm out of them. Uh, because I can't the the the kindle app it.

02:09:13 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That just ain't that ain't the same thing. When I decided not to renew my amazon on my audible, I said, well, at least I can download all of these, because, uh, I don't.

02:09:22 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I don't think there's anything wrong with using audio hijack to simply capture the stream you bought. You bought them, you own them.

02:09:29 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, mr alex lindsey, your pick of the week so, obviously, the iphone, the iphone 15, really jumped, you know, from a, from a film level or from a filming level or video level, however you want to call it, and one of the things that it did is that the chip got a lot bigger. Um it, and it turns out that the chip, when you're grabbing it at open gate, is very, very close within 3% of the 16 millimeter film.

02:09:59 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, really how interesting.

02:10:00 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
So if you get the full gate but it's very hard to get that whole, you know grab onto it and to give it more of that film look and everything else that people want. So Perla is built for, the phone is really built to give you that kind of filmmakers Look. This is, you know, if you're doing something that's more practical, you still may want to use. You want to do something easier, you still may use, like Kino, or you may use the Apple app. If you want to do something that's really technical, you're still probably going to end up using the Blackmagic camera. But if you're looking for this kind of film look and you want to put it together there and have it kind of have that classic feel to it, your phone can actually get very, very close to the look and feel of a 16 millimeter film.

02:10:42 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And it's a relatively simple interface.

02:10:43 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I would say that it's kind of halfway between the simplicity of Kino and the Blackmagic camera, which is probably a bit more heavy.

02:10:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
It also distills, not just film. That's interesting yeah. So if you're looking for something I mean, there's lots of things that will you know- A lot of people don't like the over sharpening uh extra stuff that apple and google do in their cameras right.

02:11:07 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
So this is. You know, if you're looking for that, look, this is a. This is a fun one. It's, there's a. I think there's a small subscription to it, um, per you know, it's like 25 bucks a year or something like that, or three bucks. You can get it for like three or four dollars for the month, for the month, I think. So that, uh, you can see if you like it or not. So, anyway, or maybe per week, I don't know. I just recently downloaded, just came out, or this update came out, and it's, it's, it's really fun.

02:11:33 - Leo Laporte (Host)
So downloading it right now. I like the idea. Perla spelled like the Pearl, p, a P E A R L A pro filming, very nice, thank you, alex. Alex Lindsay's at officehoursglobal. Every day of the week you can ask questions, think and talk about production, the kinds of stuff he's a master of. Uh, anything you want to plug right now I'm start.

02:11:58 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I'm going to be doing some live streaming tests uh, probably starting tomorrow on substack. I'm trying to figure it out, so. So I'm trying to live stream on, figure it out, you can live stream on Substack, you can. You can live stream to Substack, and I can't tell you how yet, but next week I will be able to.

02:12:12 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Wow, that's the one platform we don't live stream on. I'd like to find out more so.

02:12:17 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
I'm working on a couple projects Removing Michael Krasny's show. We're taking a little hiatus on Michael Krasny Show and moving into Substack, so people can pay for it, subscribe to it.

02:12:25
We've had subscription, but we think that the cross-pollination and Substack is probably going to be more effective. You know, it's really there's a lot going. I mean, we did a lot of studying, you know, and we think that that's going to be really interesting to kind of build more of that process around there. So we're going to move it, but I have I have to figure it all out before we get there. So one of the things I'm going to do is start streaming, because we're going to stream those shows and take questions and everything else there. So, so, so, anyway, so we're. So if you find me on Substack, you can find I'm I think I put it out on a tweet or whatever, but I'm. It's Alex B, b-e e e lindsey on substack. My middle name is b, so it's just. It's just so I don't do it wait a minute.

02:13:10 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Your middle name is not b e e ben ben.

02:13:13 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Oh yeah, okay, so uh b. Yeah, it'd be funny if my name was b, it would be very funny. No, no no no b, you can always tell that's the name I use when I when someone else think I have the other, alex Lindsay.

02:13:25 - Leo Laporte (Host)
but anyway, you know, my middle initial is G. It'd be nice if my middle name were G-E-E. Yeah, leo G Laporte. Yeah, exactly. I might think about changing things.

02:13:36 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Exactly so, anyway. So, and then also, if you are, if you sign up for office hours, we'll be streaming. My daughter's band is a high school band on on saturday, and so you'd have to go to office hoursglobal slash join to sign up and you'll get announcements inside of discord. You have to kind of find your way to discord, but uh, and we'll, we'll put out the link, I'll probably I may tweet it out. We'll see. We'll see how I feel about it. We're gonna.

02:14:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
We have a see how the rest of the kids feel about it too. They may not. They may not like the idea.

02:14:08 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Oh, we've told them that that's the deal Like. So they're excited.

02:14:11 - Leo Laporte (Host)
They're excited about this All right, they want to be famous.

02:14:13 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah.

02:14:14 - Leo Laporte (Host)
That generation. They all want to be influencers.

02:14:20 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
So, yeah, yeah, that we found in Richmond that's going to let us take over for a little while and we're going to put some Black Magic cameras in there.

02:14:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, so you're not doing it in a concert venue, you're going to do it in a studio.

02:14:32 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Yeah, we're going to record a couple songs as well as for Nice, for the album, for the album yeah, exactly. But you'll also get to see them. It's a great band, so they're doing some fun stuff, so, anyway, so that's going to happen on saturday if you sign up. Oh cool, probably more of an internal announcement. So you probably have to go to office hoursglobal, join and get into that email list and that email will go out awesome.

02:14:54 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Thank you, alex, andy and ako. I have no idea how to spell his last name, but if you remember I have no idea you'll get at least part of the way there. I h n a t k? O. That's the rest of it's easy yeah, I mean.

02:15:09 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
But going back to your earlier comments, like imagine like having the initial ai in this area.

02:15:16 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I know that's pretty good, isn't it?

02:15:17 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
it's, it's, it's kind of it's kind of like every time I see your show notes I go.

02:15:22 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Is that andy or an ai that?

02:15:24 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
I've, I'm, I'm finishing up like the little bibs and bobs on the new site, the new blog. I'm like in the above. Okay, let me explain who the hell I am. And the joke was and I was gonna. I had the joke for the longest time. I promise you that every single thing is created by ai, and I also promise that nothing on this site is generated by ai. And then I thought that they're they're probably automated systems. That will cause me to regret even joking about. Everything is created as AI on this site, and so I should probably not do that.

02:15:53 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Oh, go ahead, Andy, live it up, take a chance.

02:15:57 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
Hey, I can certainly afford to send away traffic from my site Pshaw.

02:16:03 - Leo Laporte (Host)
I've been doing that for years. I'm wearing a cardboard belt. Jason snell is at sixcolorscom. You can find all of his podcasts at sixcolorscom.

02:16:14 - Jason Snell (Host)
Slash podcasts anything or, I'm sorry, slash jason yeah, I'm gonna need to create an alias for slash podcast I just screw it now I'm sorry, uh, just uh.

02:16:25
You know good, lots and lots of emptying the notebook about last week and trying to think about where apple's going with this stuff. Um, again, moran and I were both out there, so we've been writing about that quite a bit on six colors. And then there's, you know it, podcast wise, talking to mike hurley on upgrade every monday, um, and here every tuesday, and so you know, yada, yada, yada, yada there's a lot going on.

02:16:46 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The man lives in front of a microphone. Oh my goodness, thank you, thank you, that's true.

02:16:50 - Alex Lindsay (Host)
Thank you.

02:16:50 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Thanks to all of you. We do Mac Break Weekly, as I mentioned, every Tuesday, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 1800 UTC. Come on by and watch us live if you wish, but After the fact, on-demand versions on the website twittv, slash, mbw. Subscribe in your favorite podcast player. There's even a YouTube channel which makes it really easy to share little clips of the show. And if you do subscribe in your favorite podcast client, would you please give us five stars, tell everybody what a great show this is.

02:17:18
You know, when you've been around, when a show's been around for a couple of decades, people kind of you know it falls off the top of the charts, as it were. It's not because there are fewer people listening, but you just don't have the same number of new subscribers. So it really helps us if you can, uh, if you could put a nice review in there for us and spread the word. Thank you so much. Thanks to our club members who make this all possible, uh, and we will. And, by the way, thanks to anth Nielsen, who's filling in for John Ashley this week. Who's got, uh, how is he going to be gone two weeks?

02:17:48 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
he already did his honeymoon, yeah oh, okay, all right well.

02:17:52 - Anthony Nielsen (None)
I think that's another week out, but he'll be back.

02:17:55 - Leo Laporte (Host)
Thank you so much, Anthony, for for doing this job. It's really interesting. I know immediately that it's not John Ashley switching the show, that it's you, but even the people in the club the discord said Anthony likes the four up a lot. That was me.

02:18:11 - Jason Snell (Host)
That was me, leo, because he hits the four up, and then I realized that I'm taking a drink.

02:18:17 - Leo Laporte (Host)
And I'm like put down the drink. Yeah, Same thing he caught me powdering my nose.

02:18:22 - Andy Ihnatko (Host)
We're all used to a certain flow. Yeah, we're not safe. I still have most of my cookies left over here.

02:18:27 - Leo Laporte (Host)
The chips ahoy uneaten. No, I like it. Good job, thank you, anthony, really appreciate it. Thanks to all of you and, as I have said for now almost two decades, it's time to get back to work, because break time is over, bye-bye. Get tech news at your pace with TWIT TV's perfect pair of shows For quick, focused insights. Tech News Weekly brings you essential interviews with the journalists breaking today's biggest stories. But maybe you need more. That's why I'm here. Dive deep with me on this Week in Tech, your first podcast of the week and the last word in tech. Industry insiders dissect everything from AI to privacy to cybersecurity in tech's most influential and longest running roundtable discussion. Short or long, streamlined or comprehensive, twittv keeps you well-informed. Subscribe to both shows wherever you get your podcasts, and head over to our website, twittv, for even more independent tech journalism.