MacBreak Weekly 976 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

0:00:00 - Leo Laporte
It's time for MacBreak Weekly. Andy's here, Alex is here, Jason Snell's got the day off, he's down at Cupertino, of course, and Mikah Sargent's here. We'll talk about all the announcements Apple made yesterday at WWDC. Each of us has a different point that we thought was the highlight of the keynote. You'll hear all about that. And then a tribute to a Macintosh legend. What more can I say? All of that coming up next on MacBreak Weekly.

This is MacBreak Weekly episode 976, recorded Tuesday, June 10th 2025. Thanks for all the round recs. It's time for Mac Break. Hello everybody.

0:00:51 - Leo Laporte
It's time for Macbreak Weekly. It's Apple News and there is Apple News. So much Apple News that Jason Snell is in Cupertino, which means we get the pleasure of Mikah Sargent. Ah, hello, I appear. Back in Mic. Appear, hello, Mikah, back in Mikah. Hello, Mikah, he was with me yesterday as we watched the reveal of Liquid Glass.

0:01:14 - Mikah Sargent
Liquid, Glass and Liquid, never mind. We also watched afterward the Platform State of the Union together and I think we both tuned out of Platform.

0:01:23 - Leo Laporte
State of the Union. I was paying attention, yeah we were Word with friends. Also here, Andy Ihnatko. He's in the library as usual. Hello, Andrew.

0:01:34 - Andy Ihnatko
Hello, yeah, I actually have a little desktop gadget in my office and a mobile one for here. When I'm out of the office that lights up when I'm watching one of these developer keynote videos or one of those developer session videos. That says, yeah, you only think you understand what they're talking about.

0:01:51 - Leo Laporte
So on the head is what it should do to wake you up. Anyway, thank you for being here, and also Alex Lindsay. You did your post office hours post show, did you not?

0:02:03 - Alex Lindsay
We did, we, we. So we had extra hours and we had Oliver Breidenbach from Boinks on, as well as Adam Tau from uh, who does mix effect, and Marcella Moyana, who does uh stream voodoo, and so so we had some developers the actual developers on yeah, having them, uh, you know, get their opinion about some of the stuff that they were looking at. What?

0:02:23 - Leo Laporte
were they excited about?

0:02:24 - Alex Lindsay
um, you know they're definitely I about some of the stuff that they were looking at. What were they excited about? You know, they're definitely I mean, it's all different things, but a lot of them are. The app intents is something that a lot of them are thinking about. As far as what that looks like, I definitely think that for some of these things, the AI assistant, you know, being able to put anything in.

0:02:42 - Leo Laporte
So we kind of talked about what it takes to put you have access now to the Apple models inside your apps.

0:02:48 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, and that was a big discussion point was being able to and we think that that's what's really going to grow over time for developers is the ability to not have to write all the code or do all the other things that they need to do, not have to pay something outside. There's many basic decisions that are a little bit more than algorithms, but not super heavy lifting. Ai. That is very, very useful, um, from a developer perspective, and being able to do that right on device without having to pay for tokens and so on and so forth is pretty interesting.

0:03:21 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, actually at scale, yeah I think the thing that Mikah and I got most excited about was a complete redesign of ipad os. I think I feel like almost that was it was the last thing they talked about. It could have been the one more thing and it I think they buried the lead, because that's a huge shift for the ipad I think it was the biggest jump towards the mac that we've seen the ipad take.

0:03:44 - Alex Lindsay
You know so that that movement was you definitely, with now having Windows and having better file management. I think that you are. I think that we're two years away from if you were going to get a MacBook Air and you have an iPad as another option. You have to think hard about it. I think that if they keep-. Well, if you want touch, you get the air Exactly.

I mean well and there's a lot of things that are easier with the iPad. If you want to pull your keyboard off and you know and watch it, use it as as different things. I think that the iPad has a lot of advantages, yeah.

0:04:20 - Leo Laporte
I think the big boy feature, of course, is the new windowing system. They still have stage manager in there, but they're going to give you really effectively a windowing system just like any PC with floating windows. You can move around of arbitrary size and I don't know what the maximum is, but you can see on their quilt five different windows open. They also have a menu bar, which is hysterical. It's centered. There's no bar. Which is hysterical. It's centered. It's not. There's no apple in it and it's centered. But I know about this ipad, but that's a menu bar. There's a yeah they.

0:04:56 - Andy Ihnatko
I think that I think that any commentary on the ui changes with liquid glass and otherwise, of course, has to start and end with yeah, but this is just the first cut at it. We don't know what's the and they're going to listen to feedback. Yeah, I'll say that gosh menu in both ipad os and mac os. They decided to be a little freaky with the menu bars and that's going to take a lot of getting used to.

0:05:17 - Leo Laporte
Uh you know, of course, immediately I saw people say, oh, accessibility, this is terrible for accessibility, the new liquid glass. Actually, stephen Aquino, there'll be a switch. There's got to be a switch.

0:05:30 - Andy Ihnatko
Stephen Aquino, who was like one of my favorite, along with Shelley Brisbane, one of my favorite writers about Apple accessibility, actually bumped into like the head of accessibility at Apple after the keynote and asked her like are we going to be good? And she confirmed that yeah. All the settings that are in normal Mac OS today that allow you to basically adjust the UI to enable accessibility for people of all kinds of vision and vision differences are going to be enabled, so you will be able to disable, deactivate, customize, tweak. Whatever you can do today, you'll be able to do that in 26 with Liquid Glass.

0:06:10 - Leo Laporte
So we'll get back to Liquid Glass iPadOS, but I want to show you something while he's still here, coming to us from a forest somewhere nearby, anthony Nielsen, wearing his Vision Pro, with the brand new oh all new persona that actually, first of all, looks like you, anthony.

0:06:30 - Mikah Sargent
That looks a lot more like Anthony, yeah.

0:06:32 - Leo Laporte
Sounds like you still a little bit blurry, but, boy, that's realistic. When you squint, you know, when you wink your eye, you know you see wrinkles and I mean it looks real. I mean, it looks real, that's pretty good.

0:06:44 - Mikah Sargent
I think that's definitely got so much more misty and blurred and the person vaguely looked like themselves.

0:06:54 - Andy Ihnatko
But now I could recognize that it's not so creepy Like it's someone's high school photo and they're dreaming about that person you know in the background.

0:07:00 - Leo Laporte
It's kind of like you're in a dream, anthony, no, but I think it's much more usable, much usable, um. So, in fact, I think that was the big, the single biggest hands. Oh, and the other thing that anthony's really excited about is the ability and this was rumored before to use the playstation vr2 sense controller. So you now have controllers for your hands, what, which is important for gaming, I think one of one thing that a lot of us found.

0:07:22 - Alex Lindsay
A bunch of us got into after hours or in in office hours, we during the show and we were all just watching it. And one of the things that was funny is, as soon as we saw them drawing in 3d, everyone searched for the logitech muse and there was nothing. Nothing was there like there was and and uh, so this is the pencil that they showed. But but they didn't. But the logitech muse, they didn't have a website. It now does. There's now a page and there was like this six line press release that says this will be available later this year. So obviously logitech wasn't didn't have all their what? When this was you're gonna talk about it.

0:07:58 - Leo Laporte
But why would you want this as a design tool? It's uh, oh yeah, like you're on the air.

0:08:03 - Alex Lindsay
I saw that I was like, take my money, like just this is yeah, like I'm ready to, I'll pay for it now and wait for six months for this. I mean, if it was a, if it was a kickstarter. So the problem is, is that so we've had uh meta, had this oculus, had this hdc, has it uh, where you can take the controllers and you can you have these little pointers and you can kind of paint, but it feels like you're drawing with bricks and being able to have a pen and be able to, you know, do it like a. It's basically walk like a wacom tablet but with in 3d and being able to draw and and to do those things is going to be, and there's there's some great. I already watched a talk. One of the sessions, um was about how to build your own sculpting tool with this, with with it. So it has haptic response, so it's a pen and as you hit the surface it vibrates to let you know you're pushing into the surface.

Yeah yeah, that's neat, and so it is.

0:08:53 - Leo Laporte
Uh, and this is the beginning, you know or you could draw on an actual surface and then you would really know yeah, but I don't want to be a skeptic, you know.

0:09:00 - Alex Lindsay
the thing is is that when you're trying to okay, clay is pretty, you know it's messy, Right.

0:09:08 - Leo Laporte
Oh, so now you can draw on clay and not be messy.

0:09:10 - Alex Lindsay
And well, but again, when you start doing character development and character design and so on and so forth, like they're showing like little, like oh, let's just play and make you know, push some stuff in.

0:09:17 - Leo Laporte
It's kind of like scooch when you push it into the clay and stuff like that. Yeah, you'll stuff like that you'll feel it.

0:09:22 - Alex Lindsay
There's a I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. They there have been. I was in, uh, an rnd facility in the late 90s that had this, but it had. It had gloves that would actually push back against your fingers gloves, sg, sgi and um, like a four million dollar room, and it was a huge cable that came down from the ceiling that was suspended on a helmet and you'd go give me a sphere this big and when you onto the vertices you could feel them as you pulled them apart and I was like this is going to be the future of modeling. 25 years later, almost 30 years later, we still haven't seen it. But this is almost all the character.

When you look at a 3D model of characters for Marvel or for Star Wars or whatever, almost all of them are being sculpted in 3D and they're using, you know, a lot of them are. There are a variety of proprietary tools. The most popular public tool is called ZBrush and ZBrush lets you paint. You know paint into 3D, and so this is going to let you do that. But the problem really is when you're doing it in ZBrush.

When you're painting in ZBrush, the problem is you have this 2D flat plane that you're sitting there drawing through and you have to kind of think about it, whereas this is going to let you walk around it, look at it, you know, sculpt it. I think that it's going to be pretty powerful and, again, it's not that it hasn't been possible before, but the tools were really pretty crude in Oculus and HTC and were really pretty crude in Oculus and HTC, and using those controllers just felt like you were drawing with a rock all the time. So I think that this now what they're showing it for, is just measuring things and drawing things out and everything else, and that's great too, but I think that there's a lot that's going to happen with this, with starting to have better controls In order to make this and the PlayStation controllers work.

0:11:03 - Leo Laporte
They had to increase the frame rate of the hand tracking to 90 hertz, which is everybody's very excited about. That, Right, Anthony? You're excited about that 90 hertz, Holy cow, it's much smoother.

0:11:15 - Anthony Nielsen
I mean the gaming experience as it was, wasn't too great. You need that.

0:11:19 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, Also look to scroll, and we were all wondering how the hell is that going to work?

0:11:30 - Anthony Nielsen
Do you look at the scroll bar and then go up and down with your eyes?

0:11:32 - Leo Laporte
I don't know what's that like, I guess, if you're looking at a scrollable page, if you look down, it'll go down.

0:11:35 - Anthony Nielsen
I haven't done anything in here besides create the you had to put the beta the developer beta on there. I just got it on like an hour ago, so I haven't really messed around.

0:11:43 - Leo Laporte
You know what other thing. That's very impressive, and they talked a little bit about this happening to the AirPods later this year. The audio quality in your Vision Pro is very good. You sound like you're on a mic, yeah.

0:11:57 - Anthony Nielsen
Well, I don't know what I sound like, but from what I'm told it sounds good.

0:11:59 - Leo Laporte
I can tell you you sound very good, I don't know, is that better than it was? Alex, it sounds like it's been doing.

0:12:08 - Alex Lindsay
I don't know if it's any better. Apple does an incredible job at you know the washing. I called my wife and she picked up. I said what are you talking on? And she's like my watch. Yeah, no, that's true. So a lot of the algorithms that they're using have gotten extremely good at getting rid of reflection, getting rid of exterior noise. All of those things have gotten much better, and so I think that this is just another. I think those things are crossing over between the iPad and the MacBooks and the watch and the phone, and Apple's probably the best at it right now as far as a piece of hardware that does it. Wow yeah.

0:12:44 - Leo Laporte
So, anyway, that was our back back door to the vision pro segment. Sorry about that, but I just I didn't want anthony to have to stay in that thing all day. So, uh, I was just really impressed with the all-new personas, the new controllers, the higher frame rate. Um, you know, couldn't you stick a clock to the wall before I know you could leave your apps before?

0:13:08 - Alex Lindsay
it's such not. I've talked to a couple people that are pretty excited about it. It's just so not how I use my Vision Pro that I would care about where things are.

0:13:14 - Anthony Nielsen
I don't put it on and walk around the room but I remember Jason Snell losing his settings in the garage especially after reboot, I would definitely lose tracking okay so this preserves it past a reboot like it's yeah, so when I understand it's like it'll pin to that like specific room and before you would see things in other rooms even when you left that room, like through the wall, but now it like you won't see everything in your house you don't know your second one room, that's oh I see, okay, so now we understand the actual sort of structure of the home obscures?

0:13:51 - Mikah Sargent
yeah, because I can remember going upstairs and looking down and still seeing that in the living room there was a screen there and now it would be obscured by the actual floor. Um, which is nice. So really quick. Though it sounds like the both of you were saying it's very rare that you ever move around in it, it's more of a stationary device for you.

0:14:09 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, I mean, it's really designed that way. So there are reasons to do it. There are, you know. So there's things like when you, when you, if you use something like jig space, you might want to walk around something, but you need kind of an open space to do that. There are things that, oh, you want to show, if you want to be shown something, but rarely am I like, uh, my use case is usually I find a comfortable place with a lot of open space around me so that I can look at stuff, but I'm usually the immersive.

Stuff is expecting you to. In fact, it warns you. If you start moving, it starts to like, hey, I don't think you should do that, you can't see anything. Um, and then the uh, and then a lot of the other viewing. If I'm watching a movie, I'm creating a virtual 200-inch screen in front of me and watching a film. So those are the kind of things that I'm not really moving for. There's one app that Adam Savage talked about and I can't think of it off the top of my head that x-rays your whole house as you walk around that one. You walk around a lot.

0:15:03 - Leo Laporte
I've seen a demo of that.

0:15:04 - Alex Lindsay
It's like a photogrammetry kind of thing, almost well, it's, it's using the, it's using the lidar for it and it just slowly builds a mesh of your entire house as you walk through, and what's interesting is, you see all these relationships between rooms that you didn't didn't know on the other side of that wall is my, in your head is like I had this thing, like I had to run some wires to one of my rooms and I thought I had to go through all this stuff and I realized, oh no, no, that room is just sitting right over top of my basement, like I can just go right up to the floor, and but it's not how it. It's not how it lived in my head.

0:15:33 - Leo Laporte
You know like it was and so it's fascinating there's some new environments, anthony, can they're the chat room's asking you to change your backdrop to jupiter? Do you have?

0:15:41 - Anthony Nielsen
jupiter, I don't. I haven't really messed with the Zoom app here, so I'm not exactly sure.

0:15:45 - Leo Laporte
You know what's really cool? The lip sync is excellent. I'm thinking about 25, no 30, no more than that years ago, when I played Dev Null and I had to wear a bodysuit and I had to have puppeteers and I was hooked up to a Silicon Graphics Onyx and the lip sync wasn't even close to this good.

0:16:03 - Alex Lindsay
Well, and this is good, mean this is this is good. I mean the, of course, epic released. Uh, metahuman is even better now, but epic released metahuman last week and it was it blew me away, like it what would you wear to get metahuman?

0:16:19 - Leo Laporte
a web camera two web cameras. Wow, like two brios two little brios and a meta and metahuman.

0:16:26 - Alex Lindsay
You could be a virtual character. It's a, it's a virtual face. One of them is painted, pointed at your, at your face, and the other one's pointed at your body, and it just and you, the metahuman you can you can build it, move it around, adjust it and then say, okay, that's what I want and it's already been rigged for you. So all you got to do now is is apply motion capture to it. Um, and again, it's, it's, uh, it's really good in real time, and then it can do post processing to make it even better in post. So it's, it's truly impressive, it's the. The demo that they did last week is, um, yeah, one of the more amazing demos I've seen about, you know, doing animation, other than the thousands of stormtrooper ai videos that came out over the weekend that were hilarious.

Yeah, this is unreal engine 5, right, uh, 5.6, I think. Okay, um, if you uh, but if you do, if you do a search for, like in the youtube, uh, if you do a search for the metahuman, there's like a five minute metahuman clip from the, from the stage you know, from their keynote, and that's where you'll see the demo of it. That's just so. Could I do you?

0:17:30 - Leo Laporte
buy this. What do you? What are you free? So can I put it epic okay so so I would put this on my laptop. Do I need?

0:17:41 - Alex Lindsay
windows, you could put it. Windows is going to run better. I think it will run on the mac. But you really want, like a game machine, like a 4090 card with it, you know, or even a probably 2090. You might 20, yeah I do have a linux box with all that fancy stuff in it I don't, yeah, I don't know what, I don't know what unreal does with linux, but it could work um and it says it'll run on linux so there you go, yeah, and I would attach two cameras to that and then I could be in it.

0:18:06 - Leo Laporte
I would like to have a virtual character. I'm just saying then I wouldn't have to dress up, let's see if I can?

0:18:11 - Mikah Sargent
uh, let's turn this episode actually, let's just do, we'll just everybody put on their helmets yeah, we'll walk you through the process of installing this and we'll just we won't do that no, how do you know that one of us isn't doing that already?

0:18:24 - Leo Laporte
speaking of of content creation. They also said they're now going to support the InstaCAM. This is the X5. Natively. Is that a big deal, alex? For content creation, I don't have to buy an URSA.

0:18:37 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, so they have to make it more available to other things. One thing I haven't been able to drive down into is whether the canon dual lenses are being supported in in stereo, uh, but what it means is that for insta 360 and the gopros and the um uh, some of the cannons you can get a 360 and 180.

Anything else, yeah, it just makes it much easier for people. Where the problem is is that a lot of us can shoot that content, but trying to deliver that content to other people has become a real problem because they all have to have vision for us.

So now. But now it's much, much easier to get people to um, to not have to repackage it. They're making it easier for us to package. It's not that you couldn't do it before, but before it was kind of an art project, and so now it's. It's a much more accessible project, uh to to put those things in. And so, while they are still obviously pushing down the path of a of this new 180 degree black magic camera which, interestingly enough, they didn't talk very much on the show, probably because it hasn't shown it. Briefly, that's all they showed and then. But but they are making it. You know, making sure that if you've got some, if you're not going to spend $30,000 on a camera, if you have $5,000, you can get an R5. These smaller, these Insta360s, are much less expensive and you can still create content with those as well. So I think that that was a big step forward. Obviously, the biggest problem for the Apple Vision Pro is content, so making it easier for people to generate content is a big part of the puzzle.

0:20:05 - Andy Ihnatko
Based on that, I really want to ask you is it a really big deal that now the Mac can render stuff out to the Vision Pro or stream stuff out to the Vision Pro and use the Vision Pro almost just as a Mac accessory? Does that make it more relevant and more important, or is that just a okay, that's nice for gaming, but whatever.

0:20:24 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, I've talked to some folks that have been doing that and they they really like it. I, I to me that I, I have to admit that just didn't jump out as something that I needed and so I haven't really applied myself. My, I haven't applied a lot of attention to it yet. Um, you know, I can put my my max. I find that the one of the things that was really interesting about the vision pro was the your eyes, for your eyes only, it is the most for your eyes only.

Ever, like you have registered, you put the headset on and said you are you and now I can see some companies and you know organizations and even you know, uh, where they really want to make sure you're the only one watching because, remember, that's kind of a protected space. It's very hard to record, right? So if you don't want people to screen record, you can theoretically, I could see companies buying these and saying, when we're having our top secret discussions or whatever, you got to put the headset on, you know, to see what we're going to show you, and then that way they can be sure you're not screen capturing but they can be sure you're not recording any other way. There's no really take a picture of it recording. Any other way, there's no way to take a picture of it.

0:21:26 - Leo Laporte
You can now have multiple users in the same space, right? I think that's going to be really great Everybody should buy Vision Pro and you guys can watch a movie together.

0:21:34 - Alex Lindsay
I think there's watching the movie together, but I think what they really showed there was the ability to interact with an object. We'll look at something that we're working on. This has been something that HoloLens could do for you know, quite some time, which is that you have an engine or you have something, a piece of architecture that you're looking at and you want to talk about it. Not having, you know, having the same space that you can stand in and talk about it, it makes a difference.

0:21:59 - Andy Ihnatko
So, yeah, it's, it's interesting here's a video of a guy using metahuman to create a non-wow look at that little character yeah, yeah, okay, very interesting the other onstage demo is just amazing, like the yeah, I was, I was, I was like there again, alex, to show it to us.

0:22:21 - Leo Laporte
Alex, show it to us. Alex, show it to us. Oh my god, his hair is on fire.

0:22:27 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, exactly so, but this is so. You can see the brio here, so he's talking into the brio and you can see him there.

0:22:35 - Leo Laporte
Single camera where's the second?

0:22:37 - Alex Lindsay
they show a wide here. Hold on, let's see. So he does have a second kind of body cam. Yeah, I think that they started off here and somewhere.

0:22:45 - Andy Ihnatko
There we go they started with just him as, yeah, when they bring, when they bring the wizard out from behind the curtain, you see, like the you see, how you see the automatic rigging, you see how ai is figuring out positions, stuff like that.

0:22:57 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, there was one where there was amazing oh, a wide, a wide shot just for a second. Um, a wide shot just for a second, um, let's see, let's see, here's there, there it is, hold on. So there's that, that.

0:23:16 - Leo Laporte
There's the wide shot that he's on, right there so this is what I was doing is dev null, with all of it is shooting and this special sensor suit and all of that exactly what you were doing.

0:23:25 - Alex Lindsay
Now the resolution is not the same as a Vicon, but it's probably the same resolution as what you probably had a motion analysis, I think. Actually I think that was like it was anyway, but back then this resolution is probably the same as what you had in the late 90s, 1994,.

This is the same resolution Today's motion capture can be. The biggest thing is is that it's a higher frame rate. So these webcams are running at 30 frames a second. Your a Vicon system is running at 480 frames a second and the reason that that's important is because that's going to capture all that motion and it gives you a lot of extra. It oversamples what you need so that when there's idiosyncrasies or things that aren't working, it can correct for them. You know, it can see that this is a little spike in the movement and it can, you know, say that that can't happen. So we can clean the noise with what we would call a Butterworth filter, anyway. So the it's literally just throw some butter on it, a Mrs Butterworth filter.

No, there's a butter, it's actually the researcher who wrote it. It's called a Butterworth filter and it smooths out your motion. It smooths out a lot of different things. Oh, wow, it's a general convolution kernel but it's a Butterworth filter. But we used to throw it when we were doing motion capture. We'd just throw a little butter on it. It's fine.

0:24:39 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah.

0:24:40 - Alex Lindsay
So anyway, but the so the frame rate is still something that the motion capture has, but this is going to really change how quickly someone now MetaHuman is now built into Unreal Engine. The motion capture is all built into it. So for free until you start making money. I mean, that's what the way Epic works is everything's free until you're making a million dollars or whatever.

0:25:02 - Leo Laporte
That's the way it should be.

0:25:11 - Alex Lindsay
It's a great business model and so uh, so anyway, so they um, uh, but between this, uh, and I think that this you'll see some generation, the hard. The bummer is is that because apple and epic aren't getting along, uh, that we, you know it creates all this like we don't have in the vision pro. I think part of the content problem that apple has is that they're in this fight with Epic and so they're not taking the best platform that has all these tools and really supporting them in the headset, although yesterday, Apple talked a lot about Metal 4 and talked about gaming.

0:25:40 - Leo Laporte
They keep on trying to unlock the gaming.

0:25:42 - Alex Lindsay
I feel like they've got a little lockpick kit and they just keep on trying.

0:25:46 - Leo Laporte
They're trying, they have new games.

0:25:49 - Alex Lindsay
They're like okay let's try the other one, let's try this one over here, and they can't quite open it up. I think it's hard because the gamers, I think, are very well planted where they are. The performance is it's hard to get the same performance that you're getting from a 4090 card on even a Mac Pro. So the gamers are hard to move forward. I think you would have to write. The problem is, when you port the games you lose a lot. It's very inefficient, and so what you really would have to do for the games is write them from the ground up on Metal to make sure that they would really take full advantage of the operating system, and then you might see that that kind of performance. But if there's any kind of abstraction in between it, um, that causes, you know, you're not getting quite the same performance as you can get on a pc.

0:26:31 - Leo Laporte
So that's that's problematic so from the two vision pro owners uh, I guess we lost anthony. He decided got tired of being in the helmet. Uh, these seem like good moves forward. Is this? Is this you'd hope for, alex from the vision.

0:26:47 - Alex Lindsay
What I'm really waiting for is the Blackmagic camera to get out into the world. That's going to add to the content. The big thing about that is that you have a real camera that has a real workflow. So it's not just the camera, it's the fact that Resolve is being built to take all the metadata and all the stuff that's coming from the camera, process that for you and be able to deliver something to the headset and and you got to have the whole workflow. That's what stopped up this industry, the industry that I'm in, uh, that I've been doing.

I've been doing immersive for uh, 30 years now some versions, stills, video, 3d, all kinds of other things and the thing that makes it hard is that everything's an art project. Everything is like you cobble together a bunch of weird things together to get out what we want, and not everything's a little quirky and things just don't quite work, and I think Apple's still dealing like. The reason we see so little from Apple is because that's their workflow too. It's very quirky and hard and everything's there, and so it's taking a long time to get this black magic workflow moving. But once we do that, I think it opens up for an enormous amount of content that we haven't seen before. You know that that I think will be. I look at things that I go to now and I go, oh, this would be really cool if I was in my headset and it was immersive, and so on and so forth, and I shoot a lot of spatial stuff and think about what it would look like in 180 degree immersive.

0:28:08 - Leo Laporte
Well, we did things kind of inside out. That's the Vision OS 26 version of the show. Sorry, no jingle. You can add it in post though, if you want. John Ashley, we are going to take a break when we come back in post in post, never when we. That was enough, that was sufficient. When we come back we will actually let's talk about liquid glass, because that's a big change that everybody's going to experience on all versions of uh apple devices.

You're watching mac break weekly Mikah sergeant filling in for Jason Snell who got skunked in the relay.fm upgrade uh draft. He only got a couple. Mike hurley almost ran the board. Uh, we'll talk, we'll. We'll raz jason next week on the show. Also Andy Ihnatko and Alex Lindsey.

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Uh. All right back to the crazy quilts. Uh, from apple matt. Before we do, before we go into the deeds, let me ask each of you what your highlight was, andy, what I presume you watched. The event, uh, was what? What will you say was the highlight for you?

0:34:42 - Andy Ihnatko
um, oh, uh, overall, I like the fact that they didn't. There weren't any, apart from liquid glass maybe, but there wasn't and there wasn't any like one huge. This is the future of the company. We've done, we've we've we've benefited the entire humanity with this new thing. We've done a lot of. It was just incremental but useful changes to things that you're already using every day, like all you know. Mikah talked about it earlier, but just the improvements to iPadOS to remove some things that make it a little more annoying to use as a primary device.

0:35:17 - Leo Laporte
That hit very, very hard, simple you use an iPad right a lot, a lot of the time yeah exactly.

0:35:23 - Andy Ihnatko
I'm using one right now. I've always had one.

0:35:25 - Leo Laporte
For instance, you'll be able to, in the fall with a iPad OS 26, use it for a double end recording and they claim we'll see. But I wouldn't be surprised that the AirPods are going to have high quality audio recording. We might not need these microphones. You know we might be able to use the iPad. Do a show from the iPad with double Ender if you want perfect quality. I think this is really interesting.

0:35:49 - Andy Ihnatko
The iPad is becoming a much more powerful device yeah, and I don't want to steal everybody else's Thunder, but but just talking about simple things like the way that they've snuck so much more power into spotlight I mean it's the spotlight has always been, I think, the most often used power feature of of the ipad and the mac.

Just the ability of like I don't, it almost doesn't matter that I have a dock or not, because the 20 most useful apps I just it's just instinctive command space and type the first couple letters, select and go and the fact that it's always been the most useful part of the operating system, but also adding the features of well, now, what if we are able to simply give it commands through Spotlight and say, hey, send this message to this person and tell her I'm on my way, without having to like, okay, well, why do I necessarily have to go through messages? Why do I necessarily have to look things up, things up? The fact that Alfred and Recast have been such popular utilities shows you how simple it is to simply have a, not a command line, but to type a simple English sentence that clearly and concisely explains what you'd like the computer to do. And the computer has certainly enough computing power to work out. Add to my calendar meeting with debbie on on december 13th at 2 pm at the place with the, with the horse in front of it.

0:37:12 - Leo Laporte
so, thomas, paul man who created raycast and I'm a big raycast believer. I know andy. In the past we've talked about alfred and raycast and you don't like to have them on a mac because then it makes a Mac that you haven't used before kind of unusable.

So an improved spotlight will certainly make a big difference, but Thomas was very quick to jump on X and say so. Apple added shortcuts, quick keys, clipboard history and the menu item to spotlight. Hey, what about? And there is a long list of features that Raycast has that Apple doesn't have. Raycast has thousands of available more than 2,000 community available extensions. So there's nothing that Spotlight can do that Raycast won't be able to do, and there's a whole lot that Raycast does at Spotlight.

0:38:00 - Andy Ihnatko
And arguably it's good advert. I'm sure that he can leverage that very nicely by saying hey, now that you're used to using a spotlight thing to do more than just simply search for a file on your drive, why not actually automate? Why not get the 230 IQ version of this? And yes, it costs a little bit of money and there's a short learning curve, but it's so much more powerful. But the idea of giving and yes, it costs a little bit of money, but there's a short learning curve, but it's so much more powerful but the idea of giving this basic power, like maybe 75% of the most useful features of these third-party utilities and putting that into Spotlight, is a huge, huge plus.

I mean the things they've hidden into this like oh, for years people have been asking why is the clipboard the same as it was in 1984? For years, people have been asking why is the clipboard the same as it was in 1984? Why can't I go through my clipboard history and have multiple things inside a clipboard? Oh, okay, that is a good idea. Let's throw that into into spotlight. Instead of adding more user interface, instead of adding more dinguses for adding more icons and things to understand, it's like no, just leave it. Spotlight is basically your personal assistant, only, instead of being slow-mo, it's something that's actually functional and grateful for the opportunity to help you.

0:39:08 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, and I have to say, as an avid Raycast user, when I saw that list I went oh, I could do that, oh, I could do that. The problem is that I can do almost anything and you're building into Spotlight the things that people really want, and I suspect for a lot of people Spotlight will be all they'll need, right, even for me.

0:39:28 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, and I think that anytime you're building something that you kind of feel like Apple should have done right the first time and you're fixing it for them, they may come by and fix it. I mean, I had a plug-in for Final Cut that was just fixing green screen, because the green screen keyer in Final Cut was so bad in 7 that it was just like, well, we'll just put our keyer out. And you know, we it generated hundreds of thousands of dollars a month for a long time. A hundred thousand dollars a year, a year, uh, for a long time, you know year. You know five or six or seven years, with almost no effort, like just just kept on printing money.

We updated it every once in a while. We had a new operating system, new final cut or whatever, but it was a very minor amount of work. And then Apple, you know, but we knew that someday that the song was going to end. You know, apple really finally put in a better keyer into the new final cut and I was like, well, that's the end of that, we'll move on now. Wasn't that a great trip. But you know, I think that if you're building something that is again fixing something that Apple probably should have done or could do better. You have to know that you sit on, you know, soft ground and you should enjoy it while it lasts, you know, because I think that Apple is going to keep on making that, operating any of their apps. They're going to continue to improve them and if you prove to do well, then you are now something they're like. Oh well, why don't we add that in?

0:40:50 - Leo Laporte
What, Mikah, struck you as the highlight of the week.

0:40:58 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah, I'm going to go with something kind of small, because I think that it is.

It is a sort of the spirit of the update.

Really, what it feels like with the redesign is about getting the operating system and its UI out of the way, and so something early that they shared that I think really showed that quickly and gave us a little bit of delight as well, was the update to the lock screen. So with the new lock screen, not only do we have this sort of dynamically generated text that will adjust to the photographs that you have and the subject that you have, but think about what all this lock screen feature is doing. You're very quickly seeing the computational ability of iOS and iPadOS. You are seeing liquid glass and what it can do. You're seeing the dynamic ability of liquid glass and that feeling that you're getting, and you're seeing that they're holding true to what they're saying about getting out of the way, because one of the features they showed was, as notifications start to come in on your lock screen, it knows what the subject of the photograph is and starts to move it up and keep it in in uh in frame, which I think is fantastic.

0:42:12 - Leo Laporte
So all of that is what I show my show, my screen, if you would, john ashley, because this is the uh apple demo for people to see that I, yeah, I. I admittedly, accessibility might suffer from this, but, uh, you can always turn it off and the fact that, uh, it can do this is so gorgeous. It does, you're right. It focuses on the content, doesn't it?

0:42:33 - Mikah Sargent
it, it and that's their whole thing. That's what they kept saying throughout the way, let's get it out of the way. Let's let you focus on your content. And I think this was sort of a wrapped gift package that showed the dynamics of the animations that are built in. It showed the sort of quirky, fun aspect of it and also showed hey, here is what computational technology is doing in the background. It doesn't have to be this thing that comes forward and says let me help you with this problem.

0:43:04 - Alex Lindsay
And also only the top. You know, if Android ever decided to go down this path, if you look at all the motion that it has and all the rendering that it's doing, only the top phones would be able to do it, and I imagine a lot of this will be available on iPhone 16 and later, right, I mean, this is heavy computation. I mean it probably is. I would guess it probably is 14 and above is probably what it can, I don't know.

But I'm guessing that 14 was a pretty big jump from a processing perspective, but it will go back a little bit, but not too far back maybe. But I think that again, I think that less expensive, you know, when it comes to Apple, has to constantly be looking at. You know how do you do things, take advantage of what you have and what they're getting really good at. Is all these things getting tied together, you know tightly wound. You know having all these OSs look the same, having them, you know the continuity and coherence and all the other things that are happening to keep everything kind of moving together continues to build that story. But it also they're doing things that are hard and by doing things that are hard it's a little bit of a technological moat from if you went to something else you'd feel it, you know, like that's kind of the intention there.

0:44:15 - Andy Ihnatko
What was your highlight? Just to answer the question, iPhone 11 is the earliest phone that will support 26. That doesn't necessarily mean that it will support the new UI and everything, but it says that iPhone 11 is.

0:44:25 - Leo Laporte
Oh yeah, it'll support 26. I knew that, but I was wondering. In fact, that was the other big story. This is the last version of macOS for Intel.

0:44:35 - Andy Ihnatko
Apple's good at that I'll say only because it's relevant. I'm very, very disappointed in ipad os 26 because my first generation m1 ipad pro 12.9 and it's not compatible. The earliest one that is compatible is the generation 3, 12.9 inch ipad pro. Oh, that's and so and I, and the thing is this thing is it's it's an apple product, so it is ticking along like a champ and I'm like, ah, do I really want to spend $1,000 for a new iPad just to get? I might have to just simply say I got to wait until 2026.

0:45:06 - Leo Laporte
One has to wonder if that was part of the calculus is we can't get people to move to the newer iPads. How do we get them to move?

0:45:11 - Alex Lindsay
to the new iPads that would be, mean, but I think that's also why Apple wants the games to work is because the games you know, theoretically high performance games pushes and puts a lot of pressure on the system. It's just that they you know again, they I just don't feel like their game approach generates games that have any stickiness at all, like it's not. And the problem is, I think Apple doesn't want to go deeply down the. They allow the games on there, but they're not wanting to necessarily go down the. Uh, uh, triple a title. You know the, the first person shooters right, is the.

0:45:44 - Leo Laporte
I mean, that's the thing that drives bought purchases I do want to play that new zoe game, though that looked pretty cool the sims and first person sims and zoe and zoe. Uh, how many of you show of hands will turn all of your icons to clear, colorless, floating?

0:46:00 - Alex Lindsay
bits of not no I think it's a cool thing to look at, but I I'm like I don't think I would actually want to have my uh alex, I didn't ask you um what was your highlight from?

0:46:12 - Leo Laporte
like one thing from the whole day mic selection on the ipad that's huge. I I agree. It's like transformational.

0:46:19 - Alex Lindsay
I mean, I would say that that leaks into the, what we talked about before, which is double ending on the iPad, you know. So I look at this like when we think about kits for Michael Krasny show, of being able to take an iPad and an MV six and just send it to somebody and just go. That's all they need here's, here's what you need for the, for the podcast and um, and it'll just do the thing, and I think that's pretty exciting.

0:46:40 - Leo Laporte
They even mention podcasters in context of the double-ender. I really think that that's interesting, how much they're paying attention to the iPad as a creative tool for audio.

0:46:51 - Alex Lindsay
A lot of us have thought about oh, the iPad would be a great platform for this, but there was just a couple little things like this missing, like where would they save their file and how would I do this thing, and what would I? What? How would this look? And they need another port.

0:47:03 - Leo Laporte
So you can have a you can.

0:47:06 - Alex Lindsay
You can absolutely, you know, plug into, you can plug out, you know we can send. Don't know how many channels it can take in. I know that I've done 16 channels into an ipad, so so the ipad can easily do a lot of those things, and that's with an older ipad, not even a new one. But thinking about like a 325, 29 or whatever ipad with an mv6 or something like it and being able to send that to someone, and that's how they get into a, into a broadcast, especially now that they've moved the camera to a place that makes sense, you know, on the on the side instead of on the top for the iPad, I think, is, I think it's. It's pretty interesting. So I think that that would be probably the thing that the kind of the nod towards. You know that that thing. The other thing I would say is shortcuts and you know that that thing.

The other thing I would say is shortcuts and you know being able to the intelligent shortcuts and the integration of of ai into xcode, uh and the ability we haven't tested it, but we did talk about it last night that you should be able to put your own uh tokens in, to put in clod or whatever. So it's coming with chat gpt kind of easily built in, but you can put other. If you have an api, you can put it in, you can put the other API keys in, and so you should be able to just start doing code generation that way. As well as the intelligence, I think that the intelligence shortcuts, when it matures, is going to be huge. It's like when I walk into the house I want you to turn this light on, this light on and this light on.

0:48:35 - Leo Laporte
That's all, i's all you're stepping a little bit on my pick, but we're going to take a break and I will give you my highlight from uh last, from yesterday's uh apple event.

You're watching mac break weekly Alex Lindsay, Andy Ihnatko and Mikah Sargent nice to have you filling in for Jason Snell. We did a nice little uh keynote coverage. We did the whole. Well, the whole day. We did did both keynotes, the platform State of the Union as well, yesterday, and that is available for Club members.

Our synopsis is available globally on the Twitch channel, but if you're not yet a club member, this might be a good time to join, because from now on, all of the keynotes, all of the coverage, the commentary on keynotes, will be in the club only, and that's just because apple has tried to take us down both on Youtube and Twitch. Uh, with letters from attorneys, you know. I mean, they've gotten pretty serious about it. So we don't wait. We don't want to raise anybody's hackles, so we'll do it in the club. For 10 bucks a month. You get a lot more than that, though. You get ad-free versions of all the shows. You wouldn't even hear this plug. You also get access to the club, to a discord, which is a social network of smart people like you, which makes it really, uh, pretty darn exciting. It's a great place, not just during the shows to chat, but all the time and all the topics that we as geeks care about. You also get the special events that we do in the club only not just keynotes Coming up.

On Friday we're going to do our monthly photo time with Chris Marquardt. It's not too late to submit your photo with the theme geometric. I have one to submit, geometric, to our Flickr group and Chris will be reviewing those on Friday along with all the camera news. Mikah does his crafting corner next week on Wednesday. I enjoyed that. Last time, Mikah, I popped in. I didn't have anything really I was working on, but I popped in and it's such a soothing time and a great time to be together with the other club members who are crafting stuff. Lego or are you gonna do Lego again this week?

0:50:40 - Mikah Sargent
we'll still be doing Lego, uh, and then we'll probably move into calligraphy oh fun.

0:50:48 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, well, you'll like the new read. Pen on the iPadOS uh, you do.

iOS today live in the club. Of course, the ai user group was really incredible. Last week we talked vibe coding. Uh, Lou Maresca says he wants to come back and do a demo, so that might be kind of fun. In fact, I'm thinking in the crafting corner I might. I I started a vibe coding project with react native with our twit api and it was able to connect to the api and download content. So I'm kind of halfway to an app, so that might be kind of fun to work on that while you're doing your crocheting or your knitting or Mikah's Lego.

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Well, I'm gonna ask myself, leo, what do you think the highlight of tuesday, of monday's keynote was I was really impressed. I thought apple had it was going to have a very tough time after last year because, of course, they kind of screwed the pooch on ai over promising and under delivering something apple rarely does, uh, and I thought you know in fact it was on jason Jason's draft card that they might even apologize for last year. They of course did not do that, but they did something subtly, I think, much better they did. Craig Federich briefly mentioned yes, we're putting in Siri, but it's taking longer than we thought. I mean it was quick. If you blinked you'd missed it.

But then they showed Apple intelligence, beautifully, elegantly woven throughout in very interesting ways your maps. Apple kind of know where you're going ahead of time and recommend a route. It will even give you a notification on your CarPlay without you doing the nav saying hey, you know the path you usually take on this is, uh, blocked. You might want to try an alternate route, things like that. Uh, ai is everywhere in a way that is useful and positive. It's not, you know.

Yeah, they kind of they say they improved image playgrounds and gem emoji. Who cares it? I think they've done things that make ai truly useful, of course they have, you know, still, and they will go out even more often to ChatGPT, for instance, image Playground now uses will use the ChatGPT image generation, which is a thousand times better. So you know they're giving you the AI you might want. But I really like this is a feature quilt with all. They showed that very quickly. Nobody could read it. Of all the little things that they have added, uh, into ios, um, I think that not all these are ai, but I'm to me and I'm curious what you all thought they did ai right this time this is what last year should have looked like.

0:53:58 - Alex Lindsay
Yes, they could have just done. They didn't have to talk about Siri, they didn't have to talk about all the things. I think that there was a lot of panic that they had in that moment. I think they did seem to learn a lesson from that and I think that they're showing practical ways that we're using AI in small doses and giving us access to things like having our AI inside of Xcode or having you know embedding things, generating images with you know, with well, with chat, gpt or whatever. But these are all things I think that I think that they did really well and I do think that they still hold long-term. They hold some potential huge advantages of being able to do this on the you know, do this on the on the device, um, being able to have it feel more private almost all of his on device, which really was interesting to me.

They're promising a lot that's hard to do on a yeah and making it available to the to the developers, so that the developers can sit there and without all those extra costs and everything else, and without everybody doing their own, by the way, if I had to pick one thing that would really be important in this, it's the fact that developers can now add Apple intelligence models we mentioned it earlier to their apps. Just a few lines. Huge, just a huge. Just calling out to it rather than having to try to build their own.

0:55:15 - Leo Laporte
I expect to see AI now in so many more apps, in so many ways. It'll be very, very, very interesting.

0:55:20 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, and they've had. You're absolutely right. They've added so many meaningful little features, like just simply the ability to like hold assistance. You're on hold and it will just basically wait, be on hold for you and wait for an actual human being to like actually pick up the phone and alert you. Being able to, when you take a screenshot, that it can actually surface actual information from out of the screenshot and action on it. If it's a calendar thing or you're on Instagram and there's an event, you can screenshot it because you want to keep it, but it will also hey, by the way, I see that you want to schedule this as an actual event. That's really nice.

These are all really really, really simple things. They're not terribly complicated. A lot of this stuff has been on pixels and on android for a while, but that doesn't mean anything. It means that they're good ideas and apple can just simply add these. Use artificial intelligence as a seasoning as opposed to the main protein of the dish. That's perfectly okay and it's probably the right track for apple to follow, given how much money and expertise they can put into artificial intelligence.

0:56:23 - Leo Laporte
Compared to open ai, compared to microsoft, compared to google, it's fine nightscape says in our discord and I agree 100 apple's going back to the original game plan of releasing little betterments rather than some big agent that they had had to have been planning for their last big announcement after putting all the other pieces in place. Lots of little things, and even more, I think, in the apps that you use. I like this quote in their press release. This is Craig Federighi. Last year, we took the first steps in a journey the first stumbling steps, I'll add on a journey to bring users intelligence and this is key that's helpful, relevant, relevant and easy to use and right where the users need it, all while protecting their privacy. I think if they can live up to that helpful, relevant, easy to use, right where you need it and private that's an a that's a win in ai, that's huge, yeah.

0:57:15 - Andy Ihnatko
I'm sorry, go ahead.

0:57:20 - Mikah Sargent
I just was going to say I still I didn't expect to be the person that's doing this, but I am just not convinced yet when I look at the features that, when I look at writing tools, when I look at Image Playground, when I look at the functionality that we've seen thus far, where Apple intelligence has been added, not to mention and I quite literally I did an episode of Hands on Apple about this recently is voice dictation. And for the longest time, voice dictation worked in this great way where you said things and it wrote it and you could have it automatically add periods and commas or you could choose to add them by voice, and it had tools like the ability to say digit and then one seven five, six, and it knew that what you wanted was to have it type out one seven five six instead of 1,756 written out right, those little kind of shortcuts. And because they applied a new voice dictation model that makes use of this Apple intelligence. As I was doing that episode, trying to show these features off, I had to stop and redo the episode because a lot of Apple's own support that showed that these things were possible were no longer possible because the AI was trying to be smarter about the dictation that I was doing.

Now it gets words wrong more often than it ever has before. It will be correct whenever it's first giving me the answer, or it's kind of typing it out, and then at the end, because it's trying to be smarter about the context of the sentence, it changes it to the wrong word. And that's one small example of how Apple intelligence, being sprinkled on top, has actually ruined a thing. And so every time they talked about some cool new feature and they said and it's made possible with Apple intelligence I have a lot of. I'm not saying that it's not going to be amazing.

0:59:07 - Leo Laporte
You're just skeptical.

0:59:09 - Alex Lindsay
I'm skeptical and I'm worried that it's going to be harmed by that.

0:59:12 - Mikah Sargent
And so when it comes to now developers being able to use these models in their apps, I mean it's clear that Image Playgrounds Apple has kind of said, okay, yeah, if we do it ourselves on device, the images you're getting aren't going to be that great, and so that's why we've added ChatGPT as an option where you can go to a server somewhere and have it create a model for you or create a photo for you, because that's going to look better and probably more of what you want. So I am skeptical. Now I will say that I was a little convinced of the possibility of it being good for individual developers who decide to do a little added training, because that is part of the API that's being made available to developers. If you give it contextual training that is specific to your app, then it's possible. I could start to see where that would be helpful.

1:00:05 - Leo Laporte
That's, by the way, huge. I did not notice that that is exactly what you want is to be able to tune it to the specific. So if you're a calendar. You tune it to calendar entries. That's really good.

1:00:17 - Mikah Sargent
And one hopes that the developers will make use of that, because without it I'm skeptical. That's what I want to say.

1:00:22 - Leo Laporte
I think it's fair to be skeptical. Apple burned us last year, so it's reasonable. We have the proofs in the pudding, by the way, for everything we're talking about in 26,. We'll see when it comes out in September. Yeah, I am going to jump on. Well, let me take a break and then come back when I'm gonna jump on. You're watching mac break weekly andy. Is the website almost there? Uh, almost almost there.

1:00:49 - Andy Ihnatko
Okay, very almost there I will.

1:00:50 - Leo Laporte
I don't mean to harass you I it was.

1:00:53 - Andy Ihnatko
It was either going to launch like a week or two before wdb dc or a week or two after wdc, after the, after the noise died down. Yeah, but yeah, and unfortunately I didn't hit two weeks before, so it has to be a couple weeks after yeah, but that means use more content on there.

1:01:08 - Mikah Sargent
I'm enjoying it good. We're gonna have to edit that out, good no, thank you, that's.

1:01:13 - Andy Ihnatko
you're not under nga, you're. You're only under nda for complaints. You're not under NDA. You're only under NDA for complaints. Got it? Wow, does your keyboard have lowercase, andy? Like no, I just get excited, that's all.

1:01:28 - Leo Laporte
Mikah MacBreak Weekly on the air. Let's get back to what I'm going to jump on. The public betas are next month, in July. Uh, I notice you've already done the developer beta. Uh, some of you've already done the developer did. Michael, which developer betas did you install?

1:01:46 - Mikah Sargent
so I installed mac os and I installed ipad os on your production machines? No, heavens, no, never, not ever, not once. Um, so I have my mac MacBook Air. That is not a production machine. It used to be, and then we-.

1:02:00 - Leo Laporte
Oh, that's a good point. I have my. Yeah, I could do it on the MacBook Air. Yeah.

1:02:04 - Mikah Sargent
And so that's Do they seem stable to you? I've been impressed thus far. There've been weird of all things, like text alignment issues in a lot of the prompts, but outside of that I haven't had any crashes.

1:02:19 - Leo Laporte
That's not a showstopper, that's fine, exactly.

1:02:21 - Mikah Sargent
Exactly, honestly, one of the things I wanted to mention I think it might have been Andy somebody mentioned about the menu bar changing and I had mentioned that, leo, during our conversations yesterday about how I was a little worried I had almost forgotten about it because I hadn't even noticed that the menu bar on the Mac is invisible. It didn't affect me as I thought it was going to.

1:02:44 - Leo Laporte
You know they walked us into this with one that kind of copied the wallpaper color right? Yes, exactly.

1:02:50 - Mikah Sargent
And now they're going the full, they're just going. Okay, that's all the way. I also liked what they said. They were very clear. They said I also liked what they said. They were very clear. They said we plan that by the time the next version comes out, this feature will be deprecated. If you asked me what feature that was, couldn't tell you because I forgot, but I like that. They are preparing developers ahead of time to say oh, app icon design as quickly as possible. And of course, we also learned that this is the last Intel release of Mac OS.

1:03:23 - Leo Laporte
I mean it was the last Intel release. Yeah. So get yourself an Apple, Silicon Apple. I promise you you will be happier.

1:03:31 - Andy Ihnatko
It's amazingly better Start picking out a Linux for the old Mac. There's a couple of good ones out there. Don't be a good Plex server because don't be a good NAS.

1:03:40 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, you don't want to throw it away.

Just try not to make it run Mac OS I personally, I'm not going to do the developer betas You're too brave for me, Mikah but I am going to do the public beta on iPad OS In July. Yeah, I am so excited about what I, what the new iPad OS means this is. For years I've bitched and moaned about the iPad being too good for the software you could run on it and all of a sudden it isn't in fact. And the other thing that this coincided with, I am starting to use my iPad Pro. I have the M4 version More.

I mentioned this yesterday to you, Mikah, because of Tapestry, which is an Icon Factory RSS reader that I use daily, and Obsidian, which runs beautifully, really looks nice on the iPad. I even have a terminal program on there that lets me log into my Linuxux box if I really need emacs, and I'm using also synology, synology's uh synology drive, which means I can access my documents folder on the ipad as if it's, you know, running a full computer. But add that, add to that this whole new way of thinking. By the way, it also has tiling along with windowing, so it's got a really, and you could they have a four up tile. I mean this. This is really great.

1:05:04 - Andy Ihnatko
It makes me want a larger screen, a 20 inch ipad, you know and I obviously haven't tried it on my ipad yet because it's not compatible but I've been watching and reading people saying how they gave me their first impressions after having connected it to an external display. Even that's even better when you have it connected to an actual screen with more real estate, and now you have a two-display desktop that just feels like a desktop machine on the iPad since the very, very beginning. It is amazing to see all the dogma or, excuse me, most of the bad dogma of the iPad start to drop away about saying no, no, no, no, no, it's not, it's not, it's an iPad, it's not a desktop, it's not. There's the macOS desktop operating system, there's the iPad mobile operating system and there's no need to have any interchange between concepts, between the two of them. Little by little by little, as they've been making the iPad have more and more hardware.

Oomph, people have been saying inside Apple why can't we make it easier to move files on and off of it? Why are we stuck with slide over and having two tiled windows in the middle? Why can't we have overlapping windows? And now just the simple idea of we are the biggest dogma of them all where Apple always has that thing where they're over your shoulder watching you do something and say, oh my, no, no, don't put the window. Oh, it looks so ugly. Give me the mouse, give me the mouse, give me the mouse and the previous mouse and and like and control it. And the previous version is like okay, we will let you have windows, but we won't let you put them wherever you want. Now, the simple ability of you can have too many windows on the display overlapping a little on the edge. It will look decided at apple that we're. You've given us 1200 for this tablet.

1:06:57 - Leo Laporte
We will allow you to make your screen look like garbage if that's how you work the club is telling you your m1 is supported by the way Andy so yeah, the document, okay, the document that I saw here's the list of uh uh ipads pros that will support it and that first generation ipad pro is uh I guess I'm wrong.

1:07:16 - Andy Ihnatko
I was going from a list that I saw on nine to five mac this morning.

1:07:20 - Leo Laporte
Okay, so there's some we'll we'll find out um I I just I'm relieved to know I feel like this is going to become my uh, my default apple device. I can't even.

1:07:32 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, I'm so tortured I'm sorry I'll shut up, but I'm so tortured because this is such a revolution, such a big leap forward for what I can do with my iPad Pro. But I only have one iPad that can run this and I don't want to screw it up.

1:07:50 - Leo Laporte
Here's the actual Apple graphic from Dustin, and you are definitely included.

1:07:56 - Andy Ihnatko
I stand corrected, thank you.

1:07:57 - Alex Lindsay
Yay, Well, and I think that I think that Apple looks at the Mac OS as kind of the old, the old thing that you, it's legacy that you get, and so the the thing, the idea that the iPad and the and the Mac are separate, is mostly not to freak the Mac users out.

Well as the iPad keeps moving towards them, because I think that they're like yeah, you can keep on using the trucks, but you know, there's one thing I will defend as of today, and maybe the EU changes you cannot install any arbitrary app on the iPad.

1:08:29 - Leo Laporte
It has to be in the app store, right, right. That is a.

1:08:33 - Alex Lindsay
That is a fundamental difference between the Mac and the iPad. I mentioned. I think I mentioned last week we built an app that you could never ship, you know, into an iPad, because it literally digs into motions, into motions package and insert something into it, because we want to. And so the issue.

I don't know why they wouldn't let us do that, but I was mentioning it last week. Cj Covel and I were working on this thing where we want to replace the reflections. But this is a good example of why you want to be able to put your own app in. We want to replace the reflections in motion, because there's no way to do that. But the only way to do that is to find the reflections inside of the package, inside of the motion package, those little folders, and they have the reflections. You can't change the names because it's somewhere hard-coded, but you can just replace the wood reflection or whatever with whatever reflection.

You and we figured out how to name it all and how to convert, you know, an HTRI to the formats that it needed to be in. But the last step is that it just opens it up so you can drop it in, and yeah, you can't ship that. So step is that it just opens it up so you can drop it in and yeah, you can't, can't ship that. So the? So there is a uh, um, so there is that limit, and I think that there's also, you know, but I do think that apple it looks at it and and I have a touch screen here, that that I have connected to a mac. It would be a lot of work to make that really workable. Like I, I try to use it as a touch screen I think it's fine for them to have two tracks.

Yeah, but what I would say is they have two tracks and one is they're still developing it. I mean, the Mac OS still got a whole new update and it does, you know all these new things. But I think that this was the first line, that they were going like this. And then suddenly the iPad went hey, how's it going?

1:10:14 - Leo Laporte
Like this got to moved over and and like, like it's really close now if I had a choice, I'd rather the ipad look more like the mac than the mac look more like the ipad. I agree, I agree, and I think that's where it's going.

1:10:24 - Alex Lindsay
is that it? But I think that the other thing is I do think that apple is it's. It is a design process of what do we actually need from the mac os, and they're not just saying we're going to make it look like the Mac OS. They're going, you know, after that okay, we tried split screen, but that's not enough. Okay, so we're going to do Windows the next year, and the next year they'll do a little bit more, but they're making every new feature earn its position inside the iPad rather than automatically just taking what was there in the past, and I think that that's an interesting, you know, development, and I think that that's an interesting development.

1:10:56 - Leo Laporte
I think they picked the best parts of the Mac to put in there A menu bar, the updated files app.

1:11:01 - Alex Lindsay
They've got Expose. Everything is earning its position in the operating system. As they add the Mac-like things, it's always the best of the things that we really need.

1:11:12 - Leo Laporte
They've got folders in the docs now, although I hate those springy bend folder of views that they have, I want a list view. I don't know if they'll have a list view, but they have put they have made this ipad. As far as I'm concerned, I'll still have a mac because I do need to run emacs. I want to be able to run homebrew. I want to be able to have a terminal.

1:11:32 - Alex Lindsay
You know the kinds of things a real computer can do but I guess here's the thing is I think we're of a generation that wants that. I think that they're looking at the next generation. When I, when I look at people, how people use this, when I'm this is a massive generalization I know I'm going to get a bunch of people are going to ping me about this well, because the people who are listening are the geeks who use those tools, but when you, when you go to the airport?

um, I spent a lot of time I have a lot of time in airports well, over 60 and below 20 is all ios and ipads. You know, like it's, you know, and then, and then, and then there's a bunch of us that are between 20 and 60. That are all you know. We grew up in the computer I don't think that.

1:12:11 - Leo Laporte
No, I don't think we're aging out. I think that there will always be a group of people who want to do more with their systems, because we grew up doing more I mean no, no, because they're coders, because they want to run ai locally. There's a lot of reasons you would want a real computer, but that percentage, those aren't going to go away.

1:12:27 - Alex Lindsay
No, they're not going to go away, but I'm just going to say that percentage of the market is like 10 percent of the market. You know like it is. I'd agree the vast majority is the best 10, I look at my like, but when I look at like, an average but when I look at like my mom's PC, my mom will not switch over. There's so many viruses and all this weird stuff going on and everything else. I'm like you should not have, like she should just have an iPad.

1:12:49 - Leo Laporte
She shouldn't have windows period. No one should have windows. But I think that I do hope that I don't have to move to Linux to get a real computing experience. I do hope Apple will continue to support a real computing experience along with this. I agree Modern. It's aesthetically much prettier, it's beautiful. The screens are better on the iPads than they are on the Macs. I mean, I guess you could get a.

1:13:13 - Andy Ihnatko
My best quality display in the entire office is my iPad. Yeah.

1:13:19 - Alex Lindsay
When I want to go check color, I go well, I'm going to turn the brightness all the way up, make sure that all the coloration stuff, the nighttime stuff, is off, and I look at if I don't have a, if I'm not somewhere where I have a calibrated monitor. What I look at is the iPad.

1:13:30 - Leo Laporte
What does the color look like? But there will always be people who want a command line. There will always be people who want to get under the hood. It's going to be a smaller and smaller percentage, but you know what?

1:13:43 - Andy Ihnatko
thank goodness for them, because those are the ones creating the programs you're using right, right and particularly as like more and more of the world is turning towards. Look, if you can run a Chrome compliant or Safari compliant browser on whatever this is, you're good for 75 to 80 of what you want to do. That really is the world that we're going to, but I do think that there's always that's never going to be. The thing is, it's the fact that it might be close to 80%. Of course, we're just pulling a number out of the air, but it seems like an okay guess to make. The thing is that that 20% of what you can't do is going to be different for so many people. What's completely going to be valuable is. That's the reason why, if, if the iPad could do these three additional things and it's going to be a different three things for everybody I could buy, I could spend all this money on a top of the line, one terabyte iPad with 5G, instead of buying a MacBook Air instead. But unfortunately, those three things are incredibly important up until I, up until iPad OS 26, the fact that the fact that that I couldn't plug in an external microphone and use an external microphone and external camera was the reason why I'm in New York for just 36 hours, but I have to bring my MacBook because it's the only thing that I can do this live stream from because of these limitations.

We respond, the technology we use, the software we use and the culture we use is a reflection of our society, and the evolution of the iPad and the evolution of web-based tools is also a reflection of the society that we live in, as we're trying to use things that are not necessarily even aesthetic, they're just simply functional Lowest requirement level of hardware in order to get this done, because all we want to do is just do these simple, basic things. But the one thing that worries me and that's a lowercase w worry is that I did like the iPad's tiled windows. I did like slide over, because on an iPad with a smaller screen, like a regular iPad or an iPad mini, it was a very clever way to get multitasking, multi-apps on one screen without having to constantly move things around and adjust things to make things actually work on that small screen. And I wonder if I'm not going to miss a simple way to simply say look, thank you for giving me multiple windows, but I really just want a window on this side, a window on that side. From what I've seen and read, you can do that now you can. Basically, it uses a snap windows where you just simply drag it to a certain place and it will occupy half the screen. Let's see if it works quite so well.

Overall, I hope that Apple does not miss an opportunity to maintain the iPad as a unique thing. It is not macOS, it is not Windows, it is not Linux. It is designed to work on a variety of size tablets, from something the size of a trade paperback to something with 12.9-inch screen, just like a laptop, and function very, very well as a productivity device, no matter what size you've got. I just hope that it's not like running uh, like running a remote access where I've just oh, I've got a desktop operating system squeezed into this tiny window and it's not comfortable and I don't like it so um, oh, by the way, somebody in the discord has installed the beta on his m1, a macbook pro, and it works fine.

1:17:02 - Leo Laporte
So good news, andy you I've had that what I said, man ipad now let's talk about mac os, because mac os did not get left behind.

It's, of course, going to get this all new design. It didn't get round icons, thank god, yeah that, yeah, that was Mark Gurman at Bloomberg, backed down last week. He had said months ago oh, round icons everywhere. He changed his tune so he'd be right either way. But he changed his tune and I'm glad he did, because this is how icons should look. It feels like they're more rounded than they were.

1:17:36 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah, I think they did point that out Everything in Mac OS is more rounder than it was before. The edges of every window are now matched to the rest of the system and so the icons also match that as well. And there were six words that Apple used in talking about its design language hierarchy used in talking about its design language hierarchy, harmony, consistency, layering, depth and vitality. And that consistency and the harmony are both what you see. It's as if the designers at Apple are whispering that as you look at different parts of Mac OS and iPad OS, etc. They really are trying to make them all feel very similar.

Anthony pointed out something very clear and smart, I think, because we heard that Vision OS was the inspiration to bring all of these platforms forward visually. But you still need a way to differentiate between a on a Vision OS on a Vision Pro, differentiate between what is a Vision OS on a Vision Pro, differentiate between what is a Vision OS native app versus something else that you're getting from a third, from one of the other platforms and sort of launching on the device. And so the difference between the circle versus the squircle that might be a little bit more squircle-y than before, is kind of how you visually see the difference there. And of course watchOS still has those round icons. It's entirely possible that at one point they thought let's go for those completely circular icons and then someone said no, because we do need a difference between visionOS and the rest of the platforms.

1:19:08 - Alex Lindsay
I do think that, regardless of what we think about the visionOS, it is driving to Mikah's point. It is driving a lot of the interface design because Apple still sees that as the future computing device, and getting us all used to these icons and all of these semi-transparent icons and the glass icons and everything else is laying a very long path towards the assumption that you're going to be doing more with computing on some version of glasses two, three years from now, that are much smaller than the Vision Pro, that all of this interface just simply rolls right into that AR set of glasses without being, you know, seamlessly, which is pretty interesting if it actually happens.

1:19:50 - Leo Laporte
As long as we're mentioning the round rects, this is probably the right time to mention the passing of Bill Atkinson, who was a legend, legend, one of the original macintosh team members. 51st employee at apple, he was the genius and utter genius who created quick draw and mac paint uh hypercard, of course, which hypercard really predated the worldwide reb and introduced us all to hyperlinking. Uh atkinson created round wrecks as well and there's a great story, a lot of stories, about bill and the original macintosh team at andy hertzfeld's folkloreorg website, which if you haven't read, uh, you must read um he was. He talks about how round wrecks happened. Uh, they wanted to draw circles. But it's very hard to draw circles on the motorola 68 000 because it doesn't have floating point and you need, you know, pi, r squared right. You need squares, uh, and square roots to do circles. So bill went home and figured, because he used the fact that the sum of a sequence of odd numbers is always the next perfect square, oddly. So he figured out how he could do this in integer mass and he brought it into Apple. Bill programmed it home. This is the story Bill told us.

By the way, I did many hours of interviews with Bill on Twit. He told us this story. He fired up his demo. Twit, he told us this story. He, uh, he fired up his demo. It quickly filled the lisa screen because it was the predecessor to quick draw lisa graph with randomly sized ovals faster than you thought possible. But something was bothering steve jobs and he's writing this. Well, circles and ovals are good, but how about drawing rectangles with rounded corners? Can we do that now? To which bill replied no, there's no way to do that. In fact, it would be really hard to do and I don't think we really need it. I think Bill was a little miffed, says, andy, that Steve wasn't raving over the fast ovals and still wanted more.

Steve got more intense. Rectangles with rounded corners are everywhere. Just look around this room. And sure enough, there were lots of them the whiteboard, some of the desks, the tables. Then he pointed out the window. Look outside. There's even more practically everywhere you look. He even persuaded Atkinson to take a quick walk around the block with him pointing out every rectangle with rounded corners he could find. When Steve and Bill passed a no parking sign with rounded corners. Okay, bill said I give up, I'll see if it's hard, as he thought, he went back home, returned the next afternoon with a big smile on his face. His demo was now drawing rectangles with beautifully rounded corners, blisteringly fast, almost at the speed of plane rectangles. When he added the code to Lisa graph, he named the new primitive round recs. Over the next few months, round recs worked their way into various parts of the user interface and soon became indispensable in fact they are now.

1:22:43 - Andy Ihnatko
All the buttons are round rects. They were. They used to be squares, yeah they're all round.

1:22:46 - Leo Laporte
And you know what, if it were a square, I don't think it would be. Yeah, quite as beautiful as it is, we can we owe bill atkinson for the beauty bumps?

the quick draw code is online, by the way, the computer history museum, along with his mac paint source code if you want to read the work of a brilliant programmer. Yeah, uh, bill atkinson was incredible and I was very privileged to spend a lot of time with him. We we did a bunch of interviews um, they're all on the twit website. He was on four different triangulations. One of them was a five-hour interview that I did and we split it up into two different uh. I I have the great honor of having some of. Uh. He became a photographer later in life. He did beautiful thin sections of minerals and rocks and I have two of his incredible photographs. Um, very sad to lose those yeah, he was.

1:23:38 - Andy Ihnatko
He was a genius at genius programmer at the time when you didn't have cloud compute, you did not have gigabytes and gigabytes of ram, you had a tiny, tiny amount of system resources. You all your code had to be on a rom chip that had a very, very finite amount of space on it. So, so every line of code was critical. What the original Mac 128 could do or could not do was limited by the size of that tiny, tiny, tiny ROM chip. So every line had to be very, very carefully considered. And one of the other seminal stories about him was during the Lisa development, where the management team was trying to generate metrics on how fast the project was progressing, and so all the developers, all the programmers, had to file reports on how many lines of code you wrote over the recent periods. And he said well, that's ridiculous, you should be scoring me on how many lines I didn't write. And so in one burst of this is also on Andy Herzfeld's site the story and in one sequence of programming he managed to cut 2,000 lines of code by finding a more efficient manner of doing something. And so he files a report. How many lines of code did he write? Negative, 2,000. And that's why he is an absolute superstar.

I mean not to denigrate developers who do wonderful things today, but it's like when's the last time you thought this code is 9,000 lines long or 40,000 lines long? It will not run. I have to find a way to cut 12,000 lines of code from this, like no it just. I mean there are problems or limitations, but it's not necessarily. Efficiency and speed is more important than simply saying let's figure out a way to make this smaller and make this more compact. And he is he, he. He was that sort of logical Tetris uh developer where he could just figure out a way. Oh look, I managed to collapse four, five lines down into one. It's no longer a tower.

1:25:38 - Alex Lindsay
And I have to say, you know, when HyperCard came out, I was just you know the idea. I built some very complex things in HyperCard. I don't know People who are really good at HyperCard, maybe not. It wasn't that big of a deal, but I programmed a whole radio station with it. So I set it all up where I could have all the songs that were in our rotation, like literally everything, and I had to go through and put it all in by hand. But then I built it all so it had all the mechanisms so that it would just tell the DJ what to play next and what the announcements were and what the ads were, because I didn't want to pay $6,000 for a PC version of something that would look really schlocky. But it ran the radio station. I just programmed the whole radio station with HyperCard version of something that would look really schlocky and so you know and so and so, but it ran the radio station. I just programmed the whole radio station with HyperCard. And you know, I just told the program director I could do it.

Before I could do it I was like that'll be easy and it was like three weeks later of not sleeping, I had it all working and but that's the kind of thing that we were able to do at that point. You know, and you know, I built this mailing list uh uh, system with HyperCard where I could. You know, I had like three, 3,500, not emails mailing addresses of people who wanted to go to events in Pittsburgh, pennsylvania, and I could send them postcards but I could identify them by their you know all the stuff that we do now. I could identify them by their zip code and I could cross-check the zip code against the, against their, you know, gender or what, what thing, what, what they came to. All those things were things I was building in HyperCard and it just was so empowering, you know, just such a powerful thing and I still feel like I don't it'd be hard, it's hard to do what I did in HyperCard with anything today. It was really visionary, yeah.

1:27:19 - Leo Laporte
In his later years, in fact, he'd created a really great postcard app called PhotoCard, which I used In fact, we used it for our Christmas cards one year and really loved PhotoCard. Bill, when we were talking to him, was caring for his wife, sue, who passed after a long illness, and he cared for her very deeply and he told me later that he had he went uh and did an ayahuasca um ceremony and talked to her after her passing and she said it's okay to remarry, and he did.

He found love, a second love, uh, in kai. And uh, there's a picture of him and kai on on his facebook page with a van that says Embrace Life, which Bill Atkinson absolutely did, and, by the way, there's one of his beautiful images oh, actually, no, that's Kai's son. Oh, that's beautiful or no, those are okay. So Kai created a Kai's son created a website with Bill's art on it, so you can go there if you follow him on Facebook. This was the announcement, the sad announcement that we all saw, that Bill had passed on the night of Thursday June 5th due to pancreatic cancer. Sadly, the same thing that killed, of course, steve Jobs and Bill's mentor, jeff Raskin, who first conceived of the idea of a Macintosh. Both passed of pancreatic cancer. He was at home in Portola Valley, surrounded by family. A remarkable person in the world would be forever different because he lived in it, and I couldn't agree more.

1:28:54 - Andy Ihnatko
Can I add something regarding Jeff Raskin? Bill Atkins needs to tell that story about round rectangles a lot. He told it at a reunion panel of the original Macintosh team, at a MacHack conference I think it was an anniversary, so it must have been like 1994, 1999 or something. And so he tells the story and it's again a wonderful story. I wish if you had the opportunity to hear him speak on YouTube, or your interviews or whatever. It's wonderful. And then, like, there's all the warm applause, warm applause, oh gosh, that's so bit. That's so, steve, isn't it? And then Jeff, jeff like, adds yeah, what you don't know, bill, is that I'm the one who convinced Steve the day before. I'm the one who gave him the same talk, pointing out all the rounded rectangles of the world, and I, to this day, I wish, oh, I wish, I'd ask him afterward were you serious about that or were you just saying that's a good, that would be a good steve job.

1:29:48 - Leo Laporte
Capper to his stuff that would be funny, wouldn't it? I love it. Uh bill was diagnosed in november of 2024 with a pancreatic cancer, so it was a fairly long illness and it was very sad to lose him. I was rocked by it, to be honest with you, not only because of who he was and because he's only six years older than me, but because he represents, along with Jeff Raskin and Steve Jobs, a generation that changed the world for all of us as Apple users, and we've lost another one.

1:30:24 - Andy Ihnatko
And these people. They inspired so many people Of all the ways that the Mac changed the world. One of them was the decision that you know what? We're not just going to promote this as a company, as though this computer just simply sprawled out of some sort of machine. We are going to highlight all the people who worked so hard to make this happen. You're going to know their faces, You're going to know their names, and a generation of kids in high school were like you hear about, rock star programmers. That term did not exist in the 1980s, but it was the same sort of thing where you see bill atkinson jamming on his instrument and thinking that is so cool. One day I want to play that instrument as well as he does and it it affected so many lives, including mine such a good point.

1:31:13 - Leo Laporte
Such a good point. Uh, we'll miss you, bill, thank you. As I said in my blog post, thanks for all the round wrecks. Uh, let's take a break. Uh, we are going to do our picks of the week up. Next you're watching mac break weekly with andy inaco, alex lindsey and, of course, filling in for jason snell, the wonderful Mikah Sargent, who's too young to have remembered Bill Atkinson.

1:31:38 - Mikah Sargent
But I enjoyed the opportunity to learn a little bit more about Bill.

1:31:43 - Leo Laporte
Were you around when we because we interviewed him first in the Brick House but then later in the East Side Studio you weren't around for those I wasn't yet around, sadly.

1:31:52 - Mikah Sargent
I would have been really cool to meet him in person. We have one of his photos. It's this gorgeous blue and red photo that he took.

1:32:02 - Leo Laporte
Stunning, isn't it? I know which one you're talking about. It's like fire and ice. Yeah, it's amazing.

1:32:06 - Andy Ihnatko
I ordered some postcards using his app and part of the thrill was wow, this postcard was once inside Bill Atkinson's house and maybe he was the person who actually like took it out of the machine and dropped it off in a hopper to his local post office.

1:32:19 - Leo Laporte
We used it twice to send Christmas cards and the first year he said I corrected a few addresses for you Because he literally he looked through every order and photo, corrected it. He had a whole process. He was very much part of the process. And then the second year, year, I got another email for him. He said I had to fix the addresses again. Could you just please fix those the next time so I don't have to do it. But he did it, which was amazing. He fixed the addresses. That's how much he paid attention. He eventually did retire photo card solely because he said I just I don't have the energy to go through all of the photos and fix them. So you were getting Bill Atkinson's photo editing on every single one.

1:33:01 - Andy Ihnatko
I know we need to get to pics, but just make sure, if you're interested in Bill Atkinson, to learn about General Magic, because that device, it's the classic idea. This is a genius object that is way before its time, but you could tell it had the personality, the sense of humor, the perspective, the point of view of somebody who looks not looks at now, looks at the future and exists in both places at the exact same time, and does it as a art, as an programming as, and product development as an act of creativity.

1:33:36 - Leo Laporte
What an inspiration. It's just brilliant stuff. Yeah, Andy is like that too. Andy Hertzfeld is like that too. Yeah, and they've teamed up on that product. Amazing, amazing person. The Mac is the product of the best minds of a generation.

1:33:51 - Alex Lindsay
I think, and I think that the interaction that he tells in that story really the best products come out of someone who is going to keep on pushing for an idea even when it's unreasonable.

Yeah, a lot of credit to Steve, but then also, they're surrounded by tenacious engineers who, once you put that in their head, they can't get it out and they have to find the solution. And it's the mix of them, because it's. You know, if you don't have both of those together, you don't end up with innovation. You don't. You end up with, you know, someone's not pushing people while they do what's a lot of people will do, what makes sense and what's relatively easy to do, and it you know. But.

1:34:29 - Andy Ihnatko
But if you have pushing and the engineers aren't there, then it's it's it's soul sucking, yeah it must have been so much fun because it wasn't just in the later days, like in the in the 90s, after the, after the, the second time that apple was doomed.

A lot of times engineers at apple told oh, it was like your team versus steve. But during the mac development days, like when he was like shuttled to like a vice president position and not really kind of be like beloved hippie founder emeritus position, and when it was you and Steve against upper management, like, oh, I'm going to destroy your $10,000 business computer by making one that's better. And it went through the price. Like you thought that you put me off on a, on a in a in a building, like on the office off on the side of campus, because you would be getting rid of me. No, no, no, no, you were allowing me to build my own fortress from which we will raise our pirate frag flag, literally, and fire upon the battlements of the executive suites at apple I don't think this book's still in print, but this uh is basically what folkloreorg became, which is a book called revolution, the valley by andy herzfeld.

1:35:37 - Leo Laporte
And, of course, uh, that's bill atkinson with the uh shaggy mustache holding the first macintosh, and andy is right behind him. Uh, this is a. This is an incredible book. I don't I think I got it uh used uh, but it's got. It's got stuff, memorabilia, ephemera, incredible I love it okay that's awesome, leo. Oh my god yeah, this is a treasured artifact of an amazing time.

1:36:08 - Mikah Sargent
Wow, that gives me goosebumps looking at that, I know well, next time you're up into, uh you can, yeah, please, I want to look at it. I think it's out of print.

1:36:16 - Leo Laporte
I think I got it on eBay or somewhere, but all the I think all of the stories are on folkloreorg Most of them, anyway. All the good ones are. So thank you for that. That was a lovely tribute. We're going to come back and get your picks of the week as we continue with Mac break weekly Picks of the Week. As we continue with MacBreak Weekly Picks of the Week time. Mikah, you are our special guest today. What do you have for us?

1:36:43 - Mikah Sargent
So I want to talk about an app. It's a game in Apple Arcade. This game actually existed for a long time in the App Store. It's called Hidden Folks.

1:36:53 - Leo Laporte
Now I'm going to give you credit because you showed us that silly little game where you drag the thing around Puppies. Yes, and it just got an Apple Design Award. So I'm listening to whatever you recommend, go ahead.

1:37:07 - Mikah Sargent
So Hidden Folks was in the app store, and something cool that Apple will occasionally do is reach out to developers of apps that they like, of games that they like, and say, hey, would you like to join Apple Arcade? And then the money works its way out in that way, and I played Hidden Folks a long time ago, but the problem with it was at the time it was just a little expensive, and so now that it's an Apple Arcade, I can get it as part of my Apple Arcade subscription. But it's basically a San Diego where's Waldo? Situation.

But the cool thing is that each of the stages are animated and occasionally what'll happen? You tap at the bottom to see the different items that you're trying to find. Usually it's people and they have a story, but you'll notice if you're watching the screen, the person is clicking on the bamboo, so you actually have to interact with the stage to move things out of the way, sometimes to find people. Just the other day there was a chicken that had escaped from its pen, and so I go to the chicken pen and I see all of the or excuse me pen and I see all of the chickens in there and I know that the chicken that I'm looking for is somewhere nearby, and I was tapping on all of the bushes and finally one of the bushes leaves spread apart and there behind the bush is the chicken.

1:38:27 - Leo Laporte
It is.

1:38:28 - Mikah Sargent
It's a lot of fun to play and it's just one of those things that what I do, I'll listen to an audio book and I'll tap around on the screen with this and it's just a lot of fun. So, now that it's an Apple Arcade, if you have Apple Arcade, absolutely recommend getting this, because you walking along and you kind of have to tap in different places to get the bridge to come down so it can make it to this next part and then move the snake out of the way or whatever it happens to be, I feel like you're going to do a lot of clicking on the screen.

You will do a lot of tapping or clicking for this game. Yeah, that's kind of the whole point of it, but it's a lot of fun, so that's my pick.

1:39:15 - Leo Laporte
Very nice, mr Andy Ihnatko, your pick of the week.

1:39:20 - Andy Ihnatko
Mine is a game. I'm the. My gaming is 100% casual. I'm not the person who spends four weeks in Red Dead Redemption or GTA or something like that. I'm the person who dives into a game for 10, 15, 20 minutes when I just need a little bit of relaxation, something I can just zone out with. And a developer by the name of Kyle Silvestra has adapted a Windows XP a game that originally was famous because it was part of a Windows XP gaming pack. It's Astro Pinball, oh yeah.

1:39:59 - Leo Laporte
I played it on Windows. Is it available now on the Mac?

1:40:02 - Andy Ihnatko
Well see, somebody decompiled it a few months ago and made the assets available, so he has recompiled it as an iOS game. And it's just a simple game.

1:40:12 - Leo Laporte
It's very realistic, yeah, the physics are perfect. I love this. I used to play it on Windows. Oh, I'm so glad it's out.

1:40:23 - Andy Ihnatko
And it's just wonderful. It's exactly the sort of game I like, where it's just again my bus or my train is a little bit late so I can just play pinball for 10 or 15 minutes. It's like all pinball games, like real pinball the table never changes. It's just so mesmerizing to get the flippers to time perfectly, shoot it through the ramps perfectly. The noise is mesmerizing and the great thing about this is that it has the same advantage of an app like on the Game Store excuse me, on Apple Arcade. It is free, there are no ads, no tracking, no, nothing. It's like six, it's like a tiny, tiny, tiny file.

Make sure that you look for the one by Kyle Silvestra, astro Pinball, because this game package was like decompiled and put up for free to the developer, the GitHub community, a while ago. I think there are a couple of them, like on the Google Play Store and elsewhere, where it is like pay to play or it does have like ad tracking or whatever. Uh, but kyle sylvester has been like recompiling and building this for every platform he can find. Works on the ipad, works on the iphone. If you've got a keyboard, the keyboard will like work with as flipper buttons. Uh, it works with game center so that you can have your high scores. You can you can cheat and bump the side of the machine. As I said, as a free game it'll give you like 12 to 18 minutes of much entertainment twice a month for the next 12 years.

1:41:49 - Leo Laporte
I just, I just installed it. I think it's, it's a, it's the real deal.

1:41:53 - Andy Ihnatko
Ladies and gentlemen, yeah, it's just perfect. Like I can't believe that this is such an old game because the physics are perfect. Like there's something that what I love about it is that they didn't try. Oh, what if we do fancy camera moves where, like a virtual camera tracks the ball like no, let me be standing over this table like I'm at the the pin at a canopinling Center, like one town over from my house that had an arcade attached to it. This is so great.

This is, by the way, like Alex. This is the only reason why, like I'm ever really tempted to get like a VR headset because they actually sell, like for Quest and for other platforms like a controller that is just simply like the front end of a pinball machine, like with the flipper buttons on the side, and end of a pinball machine, like with the flippers on flipper buttons on the side, and you have a pinball app like on in VR. So when you look down, you are seeing like the virtual pinball machine like in front of you, but in the real world you're actually feeling the sides of this machine. You're pulling the plunger like for real and I'm like I tried that a couple of times and I'm like, okay, I understand why you spent $800 for this headset.

I understand why you spent $400 for this controller, because this is perfect.

1:42:59 - Alex Lindsay
Andy, the next time you're out here we're going to the Pacific Pinball Museum, which is in Alameda. It has, from the very first ones all the way to the most modern ones. It's just room after room after room of pinball.

1:43:13 - Andy Ihnatko
I kind of only need Adam's family. That'll give me for like first 18 hours and then, if there's time left, we'll check the other ones.

1:43:19 - Alex Lindsay
You think that until you start playing them, I found that there's. My sweet spot is the late 70s.

1:43:25 - Mikah Sargent
Oh, that's kind of fun to know your era.

1:43:28 - Alex Lindsay
My era that I enjoy Now. I admit that my dad had a client that couldn't pay him, so he paid him with a pinball machine, and so there was a Paragon.

1:43:36 - Andy Ihnatko
I need more clients like that Pinball machine stuffed with drug money.

1:43:41 - Alex Lindsay
So he paid him with Paragon. We had a Paragon in the basement. It's still there. I mean, we still go down and play it. So I grew up with that in its late 70s. Completely inappropriate as a father. When you go down you're like, oh, I don't know if those graphics were really the right thing, but but the um, uh, but I found that my what I like is a certain level of complexity, but not so much complexity. And uh, but I I found that because I played, you know, my daughter and I went, we played for you know three or four hours. Just moving through the decades of stuff, it's really cool.

1:44:14 - Mikah Sargent
Instead of asking what's your, sign your astrology.

1:44:18 - Alex Lindsay
What's your yeah, your pinball era? You can learn a lot I, I still.

1:44:23 - Andy Ihnatko
I just want to hear world julia yell extra ball.

1:44:26 - Alex Lindsay
That's it uh alex lindsay, your pick of the week. So, uh, the camera on your phone, the the front-facing one to you, not a very good camera and so but we take all these selfies like this with our, with that camera see what's going on yeah uh, what is? Uh, what small rig has released? Is this little monitor here? Now you may be wondering what is this monitor showing? It's showing my phone, so this is a it's airplane, anthony just bought it.

1:45:00 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure. It's airplane to the monitor what it's an airplane display.

1:45:08 - Alex Lindsay
Oh, yeah, oh yeah.

No, no, no, no. Watch this. I got a little magic for you here. It gl. Watch this, I got a little magic for you here. It glues on. Oh, it's mag safe, mag safe. So now you can. Now I gotta get this. Yeah, yeah, this was. We were talking about an office hours and literally while people were talking about it, I was like ordered, now I ordered another one. Uh, I ordered the first one here's. Here's the worst part. In office hour, someone brings up snap. It's called snapply. Don't buy that one. Uh, it's from China. You can buy it quicker on Amazon.

1:45:37 - Leo Laporte
Get it from the good people, small rig. These people are good.

1:45:41 - Alex Lindsay
The small rig. One's a little thicker it also has a quarter 20 on the bottom. Oh nice, so you can just attach it to something as well, and so, anyway. So this is so now you can go like this and especially $64 or $65.

I'm blown away how cheap it is and it's a great little monitor, a little bit of lag, but if you're doing a selfie it doesn't matter, and it's just if you want to use the 48 megapixel. If you want to use the 0.5, like kids, my daughter can do the 0.5 by herself without a monitor, but I can't Because you have to get the head right in the center unless you want it to stretch. Kids, my daughter can do the 0.5 by herself, like, without a monitor, but I can't, so like, cause you have to get the head right in the center unless you want it to stretch. So, um, so anyway. So the uh, so this, it will mirror it over.

Now, what I'm using it for is that I want to be able to do interviews in the field with zoom, where the person interviewing is on the monitor and so uh, and so I want to be able to walk it up and be able to do that, and so I got it for that. But for a selfie or for anything else where you want to use the better lenses, it's pretty magical and it totally works. So, anyway, it's pretty slick. What it does is it shows you a QR code it has, you join its Wi-Fi and then at that point it just shows up as a monitor, and so it's not connecting to the internet. So it's not an app that you have to. There's no app. That's cool.

You just join its Wi-Fi and then jump onto it and you're off to the races.

1:47:03 - Andy Ihnatko
I'm thinking I can have a writer deck with a two-screen display for added productivity. Yeah, yeah, there you go. I can have my markdown on one screen and have my reference control on the other.

1:47:12 - Alex Lindsay
I'm sure we can think of a lot of other uses for it. This is very cool. Yeah, really really.

1:47:17 - Mikah Sargent
For that price. Oh my goodness, yeah, yeah exactly.

1:47:20 - Alex Lindsay
If it was much more than that, I probably wouldn't have.

1:47:22 - Leo Laporte
It's a nice thing to have.

1:47:23 - Alex Lindsay
yeah, yeah so I'm pretty impressed with it and SmallRig does good stuff.

1:47:28 - Leo Laporte
I have a lot of SmallRig stuff.

1:47:30 - Alex Lindsay
I was talking to someone who was building this really cool tripod rig. You know a super high-end little head. You know little head for cameras to make them really easy to put together and I was like the problem you really have with this, if you get out to the market with this, is how long can you sell it before SmallRig builds it? That's a good point. They're going to build it like really well. And they're going to do it nice and cast aluminum.

1:47:51 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, this is to build it like really well, and they're gonna do it nice and cast aluminum yeah, oh, this is the.

1:47:55 - Alex Lindsay
This is the snapply one. It was just pretty much the same, a little thinner. The problem with this one is that, again, it was a little. It's more expensive. Oh, it's a little thinner, um, and it took forever to get here and this was like a day, you know. So yeah anyway, they're, they're.

1:48:08 - Leo Laporte
There's two different ones, but buy the small rig one, it's better next us batch ships june 27, so it won't take a day, oh wow. Yeah, they're cranking them out as fast as they can.

1:48:21 - Alex Lindsay
I think Office Hours bought a lot of them. I think you just wiped out the supply?

1:48:23 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, exactly.

1:48:25 - Alex Lindsay
Because it was a day, check Amazon as well, because Amazon might have some in stock. But we have done that in the past with Office Hours. Is we get something that's under $100 that we get excited about and like 100 people buy it or 200 people buy it? They're not used to that.

1:48:41 - Leo Laporte
I hope the same thing happens for my new clock. I don't know if you can see it. Unfortunately it's a little blurred out because the camera's focused on me, so let me scooch back a little bit to show you this. Alex, you could almost use this as a clapper.

1:48:59 - Alex Lindsay
This is the.

1:48:59 - Leo Laporte
Mixela it's so accurate.

It's accurate to the thousandth of a second, and it really is because it's using GPS. There's a GPS receiver which I put in the window and then look at this. This will also turn into like this then you could do it like a big, long bar clock with the date accurate to the uh gps and the time accurate to the hundredth, the thousandth of a second. And the reason it's so accurate is because gps is that accurate. But what's cool about it is, if it doesn't get a GPS signal, it's smart enough to shut down to just the seconds.

1:49:40 - Alex Lindsay
I don't know. I don't know what's going on here.

1:49:42 - Leo Laporte
It's really a cool clock. This is where I got it. I saw a YouTube video about the guy who built it. The guy is insane. He builds these for YouTube and then I guess he sells them, which is amazing. Wasn't cheap? I got it assembled. If you have soldering skills, you can get it for 250 pounds British. For me it was a little more expensive. Oh, out of stock, but he's making them, so he's going to make more. I think he sold. I was expecting to wait a few months for this and I think he must've seen that. I ordered it and sent me a quick one. By the way, notice it's not flickering on our cameras. That's because it's 330 Hertz. Wow. That.

1:50:27 - Alex Lindsay
Whoa.

1:50:28 - Mikah Sargent
So that's, pretty good, that's a lot of Hertz. That's a lot of.

1:50:31 - Leo Laporte
Hertz.

1:50:32 - Mikah Sargent
Hertz, it Hurts, that's a lot of hurts, hurts, don't it.

1:50:33 - Leo Laporte
And it's smart enough to rotate the gate to close it, which is super cool.

1:50:37 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah, that is neat. I like that. Look at that.

1:50:41 - Leo Laporte
Anyway, people love the clocks on our set. Apparently, they use the clocks to figure out how long they've been working out or something, so I've got a new clock that's even more accurate.

1:50:54 - Alex Lindsay
I love the business model of I'm going to give you instructions and tell you where to buy all the stuff, but I'll still make one for you and charge you for it if you want it, because he's a hobbyist. But if you want to make it, here's all the stuff. But if you don't want to go through, if time is more valuable than money, then I'll make you one.

1:51:12 - Andy Ihnatko
That's good marketing because you look at the instructions. You can, I'll make you one. That's good marketing because you look at the instructions. Oh my god, look how much, look how. Look how much work this person is doing into actually assembling and shipping this and he only wants to be paid like four dollars an hour for yeah, I don't mind, I absolutely don't mind paying uh the.

1:51:29 - Alex Lindsay
I look at a lot of those I get. I go, oh, I can do this myself, and then I look at, I look at the instructions. I think part of the instruction is the flex, like you could, but would you, or is this going to be another one of those boxes that's sitting on your desk going someday? I'm going to solder this together, oh my God, no, don't.

1:51:43 - Mikah Sargent
What are you doing looking into my office, alex? What are you talking about?

1:51:46 - Alex Lindsay
Because I have an office, just like it.

1:51:48 - Leo Laporte
If you're intrigued, subscribe to his uh mitzela uh youtube site, which has 222 000 subscribers. So I'm not telling people something that doesn't exist, because he does a lot of really interesting uh projects, and so I'm very grateful. Thank you for uh. I don't know his name. I wish I did uh, but thank you, ms uh mitzela, for uh sending me yeah, he's, it's in email.

I just can't find his email. But thank you for sending it to me so quickly and I'm very happy. I told him and put it on the set and then show it off. So, uh, I'm doing that right now and, uh, I just have to figure out how to put it somewhere. Well, it stays in focus. That's the only problem, because, uh, split diopter yeah, that's what I need a split diopter just for, just for the clock, that's what I need.

1:52:41 - Andy Ihnatko
If anybody sells, maybe he can make you one with like tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny little like seven segment leds and you can do like a forced perspective sort of thing and just like put it like right next to your face only wind up, so it looks like it's standing on top of the inside yeah, a little bit of, uh, leaning tower of pieces situation somebody somebody's asked if it has a brightness control.

1:52:59 - Leo Laporte
It definitely does. I don't know how to control it, but as I get closer to it it dims wait how, I don't know, it's magic what it's got a proximity, I think it has it. I think it has an ambient light sensor is by guess, but. I'm sure the details on the Mitsela precision clock, mark four.

1:53:19 - Mikah Sargent
Oh wow, Four generations.

1:53:21 - Leo Laporte
He's been making these for a while. Gps synchronized millisecond display that doesn't flicker, Even when filmed at 25,000 frames per second which you often do.

I do all the time and I really love the accuracy on this. Oh is a user manual. There we go. It has lots of uh additional features that I, that I don't know about. Uh, it has a bunch of date formats, time formats. Of course, this guy's the ultimate geek. It has usb serial output so you can connect it up and uh and start typing commands to it. It is, it is. It is the ultimate geek gadget and it just looks like a clock. That's the amazing thing. There's a whole github repo dedicated to this clock, with firmware images and everything. It's about time I had a clock that I could update the firmware. Uh, anyway, very nice. Yes, it does plug in usb uh c on the back, but it has a, or actually. No, it's a usb, it's an older, it's an older usb, it's the micro usb, but it does have a coin back.  Well, that's you can probably have a few of those cables I'm never gonna unplug it, so that's that I'm gonna have to recharge

1:54:35 - Mikah Sargent
it. Yeah, yeah, that's the one thing that's disappointed me. Oh, come on man, everything else has been amazing a lot of those lying around.

1:54:42 - Leo Laporte
Uh, anyway, isn't that amazing. Look at that. That is guaranteed, accurate, guaranteed by uh, mr gps okay, but when?

1:54:52 - Andy Ihnatko
but when you're talking about like thousands of a second, do you have to factor in the latency of the display?

1:54:57 - Leo Laporte
The truth is, it's going so fast. The last digit I can't read, it's just always on.

1:55:04 - Alex Lindsay
When you test a high frame rate, you have to find something to record it that's a higher frame rate. If I do 120 frames per second. I actually use my phone because I can record it.

1:55:16 - Leo Laporte
What records it? More than 330 hertz, that's the question.

1:55:19 - Alex Lindsay
You have to get something. A Blackmagic 12K will do 4K, or do I think? 1080p at 480. So that's what we'll have to.

1:55:28 - Leo Laporte
I wonder if I take a picture of it would it freeze frame it?

1:55:32 - Alex Lindsay
It might freeze frame it, but again it won't.

1:55:34 - Leo Laporte
Your sample is so much lower than yeah, no, it doesn't, it's still in eight pretty cool.

Yeah, that's really cool not as cool as yours, alex, but it's. It's up there uh, Mitzela is how you pronounce it m-i-t-x-e-l-acom, the mark four that's awesome which just came and I'm so excited about it. Thank you all so much. We do MacBreak Weekly every Tuesday, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern Time, 1800 UTC. You can watch us live. If you're in the club, of course, you can watch, get the behind-the-velvet-rope access in the Club, twit Discord, but you don't need to be a club member to watch live. There's YouTube, Twitch, x.com, Tiktok, Facebook, Linkedin and kick seven different places. You can watch and chat with us. After the fact, the show is available online at our website, twit.tv/mbw.

There's a YouTube channel dedicated to the videos, so a good way to share clips. If you want to do that, you're welcome to do that. Help spread the word. Also, you can subscribe in your favorite podcast client. That way, you get it automatically right, that's Pocket Casts, apple Podcasts, overcast, whatever you like. But do us a favor If you do that. Also give us a five-star review so you can spread the word. We need more people to know what a great show this is and we thank you for knowing that and being here. Thank you, Andy Ihnatko. ihnatko.com soon? Soon. I-h-n-a-t-k-o.com, and you're on Blue Sky at the same. I-h-n-a-t-k-o. Alex Lindsay officehours.global.

1:57:19 - Alex Lindsay
The. Did you put the after hours on the? It's up there, extra hours. So the after hours which we did during the show, we just did that's just internal, kind of like yours, it's just after hours in zoom. And then the the external discussion, extra hours is definitely up there. So you're looking for the extra hours from yesterday. It'll say WWC on it, probably the second or third video from the beginning and because we do so many You've already done more after that we did one this morning, so we talked about it a little bit this morning too.

1:57:46 - Leo Laporte
Office hours global on the YouTube, not just office hours. Well, you know what the good news is? It's pinned right to the top. The WWDC25 breakdown so easy to find. And I think he is in a Vision Pro that guy. No, it's just his shot.

1:58:02 - Alex Lindsay
Oh, just his shot looks like he's in a Vision Pro.

1:58:05 - Leo Laporte
Hey, that's a cool thing. Yeah, it does look like he's got it in Vision Pro. Anyway, really cool.

1:58:12 - Alex Lindsay
We did an all Vision Pro extra hours and now that the new opera, we're going to give it a couple weeks to settle everybody to have it and then and then. But there's a enough of us that have vision pros that I think we'll do an all vision pro. Uh, we've done it once before with the first one, and now it'd be great to see the new avatars, uh, the uh, you know, updated to a head-to-head comparison.

1:58:31 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, exactly yeah, office hours, dot global and, of course, 090.media. If you want to hire, alex, there is nobody better to do your next event, mr uh Mikah sargent is going to be back on tech news weekly on thursday and then of course, uh, every other week for ios today only, if you subscribe you'll get it every week, um, and from time to time on all of the other shows. We really love having you on. Oh, and of course, mike is crafting corner next week, let's not forget that.

Don't forget, I will. I'll bring my vibe coding and it'll have a chill vibe, thanks to you.

1:59:06 - Mikah Sargent
Chill vibes, that's what we that's what we strive for.

1:59:18 - Leo Laporte
Thank you, Mikah, for being here. Jason Snell will be back next week. We can rib him about his failure in the upgrade draft. I hope you will all be back next week too. But now it is my sad and solemn duty to tell you you've got to get back to work because break time is over. Bye-bye From Silicon Valley boardrooms to tomorrow's AI breakthroughs.

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