MacBreak Weekly 922 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

0:00:00 - Leo Laporte
It's time for MacBreak Weekly. Jason Snell here, Andy Ihnatko, Mikah Sargent filling in for Alex Lindsey. Scarlett Johansson's mad as heck and she's not going to take it anymore. We'll explain what that's all about and why it might change what Apple announces at WWDC, why you probably won't get an updated Mac Studio or Mac Pro until next year. Uh-oh, and are Microsoft's new AI plus PC Surface laptops anything to write home about? Are they actually better than the MacBook Air? Let's talk about it next on MacBreak Weekly.

0:0:30 - VO
Podcasts you love From people you trust. This is Twit.

This is MacBreak Weekly Episode 922, recorded May 21st 2024. Crossing the Snell Line. It's time for MacBreak Weekly, the show where we cover the latest news from Apple, and the guns and long knives are out for Apple. Microsoft's moving in. Jason Snell is here from Hi Jason.

0:01:14 - Jason Snell
Microsoft has been moving in for a long time. Maybe they got it right this time. We'll see. You think we don't know yet.

0:01:19 - Leo Laporte
We'll find out Also with us. Andy Ihnatko from WGBH in Boston, now in the library once again.

0:01:27 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, you see, this is something that the haters don't understand, that you know, with ARM processing, maybe Windows is not going to be first to the market, but they get there when the market is right and they do it well, instead of rushing in with something half-baked like Apple.

0:01:44 - Leo Laporte
They're a product company. Alex Lindsay, for the second week in a row, could not be here. Obviously he's getting a lot of work, which is good, so we took the out-of-work Mikah Sargent to fill in. Hi, micah, hello, I command him, so he can. I command you to join us on MacBreak Weekly.

You were here just minutes ago for iOS Today with Rosemary, you know we should get you and Rosemary on the show. Rosemary would be great to have join us. It's funny. I found I was going through a old email and I found an email from Rosemary from like nine, from like 2015 or something, before anybody ever even knew who she was. I wonder what it was about. Well, I can read it to you. If I can find it again, let me see. It was a long time ago. I don't know why. I was looking at old emails. I think they surfaced. Oh, I know why. I had a Macintosh that I upgraded. No, that's another story. No 2014. Rosemary Orchard Don't show her email, though, because it's got an email address, although it's probably not still. Hi, leo, I'm loving the shows on twit. Who needs cable when we have you? Thank you, rosemary. She 20 this is nine years ago. She was probably like five.

I was on Kickstarter the other day when I spotted the project below, my instant thought was ipod shuffle smartwatch combo. It tracks various things such as heart rate and speed, and has four gigabytes of storage. This is prior to the apple watch release. It's called the dash wireless. Sorry if you've heard of this before, but either way, it looks like a cool project. No affiliation at the very least, I can imagine Alex Lindsay having this as one of his picks. Wow, whatever happened to these, to these? I remember when I think I bought them Probably. I think I did Back to them at least.

0:03:28 - Mikah Sargent
By Bragi Wait, what is it Pre-order?

0:03:30 - Leo Laporte
now Pre-order. I think it's over. In fact, I wonder if Bragi is going to even come up. Maybe they were there before the AirPods they were were. This is pre-airpods. I did order these now that I think about it, of course, because I'm an idiot. I remember everything they were. They were, uh.

0:03:51 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I remember yeah it's all tax deductible leo doesn't mean you don't have to spend real money.

0:03:57 - Leo Laporte
It doesn't mean they're free. They did get 3.3 million dollars in pledges. Their goal was $260,000.

0:04:06 - Jason Snell
Wow, they made a lot more money.

0:04:07 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah, I remember this very well actually.

0:04:08 - Leo Laporte
Thank you, Rosemary, for reminding me from the past.

0:04:14 - Andy Ihnatko
All right. Remember when ordering a piece of hardware from Kickstarter was not 100% a stupid idea.

0:04:22 - Leo Laporte
I'm waiting for something from Kickstarter right now.

0:04:24 - Andy Ihnatko
I wish you hadn't said that.

0:04:24 - Leo Laporte
Still, I'm always waiting for something right now. I wish you hadn't said that you still get. I'm always waiting for something. I know I fell for this one. It's a chess playing, a chess playing robot, chess playing machine. Yeah, it's got magnets so it moves the um, moves the pieces, so it's kind of like you got a ghost you're playing a ghost you're a beautiful summer child.

0:04:46 - Mikah Sargent
I'm such a sucker such a sucker look at that 3d rendered object.

0:04:51 - Andy Ihnatko
I am such a sucker if the thing is, if you don't have the robotic arm that actually picks them up and moves them, I don't get the attraction it's that would be cool to see, actually, now that I think, well, they slide along.

0:05:03 - Mikah Sargent
I mean, you connect, it works, it's functional, it's practical, but it has.

0:05:07 - Andy Ihnatko
It has, no, it doesn't have the panache of an arm no, an arm would be so much better.

0:05:13 - Leo Laporte
Uh, or a wookiee. Either way, something to move it. Let me see if it's going to show it moving yeah come on show it moving, danny Come on. Danny Does it move? He's not going to. No, he's moving it. Now you oh, I think I might shouldn't have ordered this. Oh well, it has little characters, Maybe it doesn't move it. Oh, you still have to move it. It just lights up.

0:05:40 - Andy Ihnatko
Oh, it actually has Hold on. The board is actually a screen that can actually video.

0:05:46 - Mikah Sargent
Okay, so you back to this on the premise that it would move itself yeah, now, knowing that it doesn't move itself, yeah, still, uh, too late. It's got piece recognition.

0:05:55 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, you know, it's really good for learners because you hit a piece and it says here's where you can go, right? So oh that's cool, but I know how to play chess. I don't really need that, but it's cool. Yeah, I don't know, I thought it was. It's not that expensive, it was cool.

0:06:09 - Mikah Sargent
Maybe you could pass it along to a grandchild. Yeah, exactly Learning how to play chess. I was getting lonely.

0:06:15 - Leo Laporte
I thought maybe the machine would play with me. It says become a master.

0:06:20 - Andy Ihnatko
That should be part of modern estate planning. I have the following nine Kickstarters going for up to nine years yeah, someday Please go on Kickstarter update the shipping address to the following people that's the problem.

0:06:30 - Leo Laporte
Every time I order something then I have to remember my shipping To be upset about it?

0:06:35 - Mikah Sargent
No to upset the shipping address. Oh, I thought you meant I have to remember my rage every time because nothing ever came to me. Well, I never remember it.

0:06:47 - Leo Laporte
So I still haven't gotten the micro clutch from Peak Design, but that's my fault. What is Candria? I'm an investor. 100 CHFs what?

0:06:53 - Andy Ihnatko
is a CHF.

0:06:54 - Leo Laporte
A Swiss Frank, a chip. It's a chip. I don't know what it is, I backed it. Oh, it's an action RPG set in the post-apocalypse. Oh, yeah. Shemera. I like Shinmara.

0:07:06 - Mikah Sargent
CHF is congestive heart failure.

0:07:07 - Leo Laporte
It's written in Lisp. That's why I backed it. I'm an idiot. Anyway, it is a Swiss friend. You know who's dumb.

0:07:18 - Mikah Sargent
Sam Altman.

0:07:19 - Leo Laporte
Oh, because, okay, he's the guy in charge of OpenAI. Uh-huh, they announced this great new OpenAI chat GPT-4.0 for Omni and they show it off with a really cute voice which I liked, which I think in my mind is Scarlett Johansson's voice, and everything would be all fine if he hadn't tweeted the word, her One word afterwards, which immediately got ScarJo's's dander up. I don't know, she's probably too young to have any dander, but her dander was up and she said you stop, you can't use my voice. So now the whole reason I liked chat gpt 4-0 was scarlet's voice and now we can't use it anymore. They took it away.

0:08:04 - Mikah Sargent
I don't know it, it's still there sort of yeah. Wait, did they temporarily?

0:08:08 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, they changed me to somebody else.

0:08:12 - Mikah Sargent
I've always had a different voice. I didn't like the default.

0:08:15 - Leo Laporte
Hi, what's your name now? Who are you? Are you Scarlett Johansson?

0:08:24 - Andy Ihnatko
I'm going to refer you to my legal team about that.

0:08:26 - Leo Laporte
Hello, I'm speaking on behalf of I'm ChatGT, not Scarlett Johansson, but that would be pretty cool, wouldn't it? She's very hoarse.

0:08:32 - Jason Snell
How can I assist you today?

0:08:33 - Mikah Sargent
I don't think she is the proper pronoun. I don't know what. It is very hoarse.

0:08:39 - Leo Laporte
And I think that's one of the things. They probably don't want to sound like a human, but I liked the human. The weird thing is, if I go back to the voice, that's breeze Sky's still there.

0:08:49 - Jason Snell
I'm really excited about teaming up with you and I'm all set to dive in. So how can I make your life easier?

0:08:54 - Leo Laporte
That sounds like Scarlett Johansson. I always thought it was for at least six months, yeah.

0:09:04 - Andy Ihnatko
I thought it was more like the flight, the performance than the voice itself, and it was actually the performance that kind of got me not totally creeped out, but thinking that this was a bad decision. It's like I think it's. I think it's really bad when you try to get a human to interact with an AI as though the AI were a human, as opposed to a very sophisticated piece of software backed by a trillion dollars in computing.

0:09:23 - Leo Laporte
But we want to anthropomorphize. I'm sorry, andy, if it's going to be a little pocket pal, I want it to sound like scar joe. Anyway, she said I'm not happy. Apparently the other mistake sam altman made was approaching her not once but twice, saying can we use your voice? The reason they wanted scarlett johansson and the reason he tweeted her is because you might have seen the movie with joaquin phoenix called her, which was prescient. It was exactly that. It was a voice. He put it in his ear, he fell in love with her, she, she, she teased him along. Uh, if you haven't seen, it's great.

In a statement to npr, scarlett says she's been forced to hire legal counsel and has sent two letters not one, because why send one when two will do to open a inquiring how the sound like chat gpt voice known as sky was made. She writes last september I received an offer from sam altman who wanted to hire me to voice the current chat gpt 4.0 system. Uh, and then, two days before they demoed it last week, they asked again. That's the biggest problem, right there she said no both times but I don't know.

He said in a statement to the verge. Sam said the voice of sky is not scarlett johansson's. It was never intended to resemble hers. Liar, I mean, that's obviously not. Yeah right, we cast the voice actor behind sky's voice before any outreach to miss johansson. Out of respect for miss johansson, we've paused using sky's voice in our products. We're sorry to miss johansson, we didn't communicate better reveal the voice actor please, don't sue us, please.

0:11:05 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, this is. This is why, like you make you, you got to make sure you get your all your agreements signed in place. There's like, even in advertising, like, if you see, if you see a commercial in which there is clearly something that's supposed to be a Barbie doll, clearly supposed to be a Ken doll or an action, whatever doll like, but it's not, but it's a different face. They will actually. They won't just have a sculptor, just just sculpt us a face. They will actually hire an actor and get their written sign off just only for the reason, so that they can say, oh no, no, this was not based on anybody who's about to sue us thinking that they ripped us off. We got here's the person's name, here's the documentation, here are the photos of whatever. And this is why, like you, don't screw around with stuff like that, given it's.

It's an interesting story, partly because of everybody all the news that's been coming out for the past two weeks about everybody who's leaving open AI because they think they're moving too fast. They're not taking enough thought into what they're doing. They just want to get the next big thing out as fast as possible. And how? Nobody's, nobody can talk about it because of the ndas. They have to sign. But can I just?

0:12:05 - Leo Laporte
say you can't copyright a voice. I'm sorry, it's not close enough. No, she owns it I'm sorry, that's not true if you could, if somebody imitates somebody's voice, can you sue rich little? You can't. If somebody imitates my voice, I can't go sue them for imitating my voice. I think if she goes to court. If I were sam altman, I'd pursue it.

0:12:27 - Jason Snell
Go ahead, jason, I could see your itching, itching yeah, I, I think, uh, the challenge here is probably more, not the copyright of the voice, but the suggestion that they're trying to inhabit or steal the personal promotional value of Scarlett Johansson as a performer and as an endorser, by one linking it to the movie Her, where she was the star and that shares thematic similarities with the product. And at two, they approached her in order to buy her professional services or license her voice, or what however you want to phrase that. And when she said no, they went ahead with the production of something that sounds like her and then, at the last minute, went back to her and asked for her approval and she refused to grant it. There's probably a case there, but the case is more how they are depriving her of her livelihood and her of her control of her image, and her voice is part of her control of her image and her voice is part of her image.

0:13:28 - Leo Laporte
That's probably the argument. If I'm opposing counsel, here's what I say. They had the right. They found an actor, they're going to produce the actor. They need to produce the actor who sounds like that, and we used her prosody to condition our voice. It's nice, we liked it. It sounds kind of like the the voice in her. As a courtesy to scarlett jansson, we said hey, we just want you to know. In fact, we'll pay you. She said no, as a courtesy to Scarlett Johansson. Right before we announced it, we asked her again. But it is not your Honor, her voice, it isn't the voice of this actor here. Many voices sound alike. If you listen to it. It's not identical. I think there's no case and I think they're actually being nice by by pause. Notice, he didn't say stopping, he said pausing. So I don't know what's going to happen I think it's probably a bad look for uh, because because a jury.

0:14:16 - Jason Snell
A jury would be very skeptical of the idea that they approached her and when rebuffed they went ahead and did it anyway and I think a reasonable jury would listen to that and say they did tone down the vocal fry a little bit. But I think it's very hard to deny that the entire inspiration of it was her and what was her loss?

you also have to prove that it cost her I would also say that this isn't a union job, so you know, this is why all those I'll just point out this is one of the reasons that the the strikes happened is this kind of thing, the idea that somebody could take your image or likeness or voice and clone it later, although this is outside of that scope. So so yeah, I don't know. It's not weird that we're in the in the point now, like where I? I think the argument would be whether it's illegal or whether they owe her damages, the idea that you're precluding, like she has control over her image and her voice and that they wanted it, and when she refused, they got something that sounded like it. You could argue that that was because they wouldn't pay her and they are stealing her paycheck by doing it, or her right to not add that voice use. But yeah, it's, I don't. The law is very. It would be an interesting case that somebody with a lot of money will probably just settle and move along instead.

0:15:27 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying to find the case law here, but I believe that even pre-ai there's been some lawsuits about saying that if you are, if you were doing a commercial and you say, gee, I really, really like madonna's sound, I'll have a sound, I have it right here jingle I have it right here.

0:15:42 - Leo Laporte
This is from the nolo press. The right of publicity extends to a performer's identifiable voice. For example, in two separate cases, advertisements that used vocal performances that sounded like singers. Tom Waits and Bette Midler were to deliberately imitate the singer's voice A good example of what not to do. As a general rule, if your performer's voice mimics a well-known performer, either accidentally or intentionally, don't use it. So your voice sound is protected and there is almost an exact precedent. Isn't there? Because they asked him and he said no.

0:16:24 - Jason Snell
I find the defendant incredibly guilty uh.

0:16:29 - Leo Laporte
So yeah, it's an interesting case. I still think if I were uh open, ai, I might, I might fight it, but the truth and the reason I say that is because the truth is chat. Gpt 4.0 is much better with scarlett johansson's voice. It's the voice that makes it. Yeah, that maybe it's. It's a it's a.

0:16:50 - Andy Ihnatko
It's a much bigger deal with people who aren't famous. There's a lot of, a lot of reports going around of people voice actors, like professional voice actors who were hired by a company that was under contract to a company they didn't know about, hired to spend two days reading public domain text, and the agreement that they signed basically said that, hey, we can use this recording for basically any reason, anywhere, and at the time it's OK, that's fine. Of course, if you want to use it for books, to tape, you want to use it for online, that's fine. Not knowing that it was being used to train not just a general AI, but a voice that was identical to the original voice actor. Just a general AI, but a voice that was identical to the original voice actor.

And these are people you would never have heard of. But they don't have they're. They're essentially have contributed for $500 to a product that is their people are paying $500 a month to actually access and there's a lot of question about to was this contract of enforceable? Because, technically speaking, yes, they did sign away all rights, but were they honest in informing this person what this recording could be used for and would they have signed that contract. Had they known that it's going to be a recognizable clone of their voice?

0:17:57 - Leo Laporte
Well, there you have it. I guess you know it sounds like that. Actually, now that I look at the law they're kind of analog.

0:18:06 - Andy Ihnatko
So uh, again this, this is this is why, like they would hire someone who kind of sounds like the right way to do it would be to hire someone who sounds kind of like scarlett johansson pay them, sign them, have a video of them signing and recording, so that, even though your goal was always, hey, I want, I want our voice to sound like the voice in her, you could say no, no, no, here's the person who actually did the voice. Then we have the paperwork. She was informed, she had full consent, so goodbye.

0:18:33 - Jason Snell
If I want to draw a little parallel between this and that Apple ad where they crush things in a hydraulic press.

This is why people are mad at big tech companies, especially about creative matters, because this goes to the heart of it, which is there is a rich executive at a successful company who decided that he wanted to basically have her come true, and the creative person the actress involved in that said no, and he didn't care, and he just went ahead with it. And then at the end he said look, we're doing this, you sure you don't want to put your name to it? And she said no, and he didn't care, and he just went ahead with it. And then at the end, he said look, we're doing this, you sure you don't want to put your name to it? And she said no, and they put it out anyway. And I think that that attitude toward people that you know, for a product that a lot of people feel steals the creative possibilities of professionals and turns it into a commodity like this, is as bad a bad look as you could possibly have right now.

0:19:29 - Mikah Sargent
Especially because, according to those reports, the reason they went to Scarlett Johansson in the first place and said, would you be the voice, is they were actually trying to bridge the gap. They were saying, if you do this, then it's the creative working together with AI and we can show that these two things can work together and that it doesn't have to be at odds. And that was the reason in the first place.

0:19:53 - Leo Laporte
So to go forward with it anyway. It was lip service, in other words, to create.

0:19:59 - Andy Ihnatko
And also from a legal point of view, it actually proves that, yes, we saw value in your voice specifically, and that is why we opened up negotiations. It could not have been. We were not looking for just a pretty sounding female voice. This is Jason's absolutely right. It's like the move fast, break things. That was really sexy thing for a CEO to be talking about back in the 90s. Now it's like you are. You're backed by one of the most valuable companies and powerful companies in the entire world. If you're saying that we don't care about legalities, we can buy our way out of it, yeah, that makes me not want to support you and your product if it had been what your promises to me are going to be like, I wouldn't be.

0:20:38 - Leo Laporte
It's because everybody loves scarlett johansson, right? If it were roseanne barr, I'd be oh, or Rosie O'Donnell or something I'd be like oh.

0:20:45 - Jason Snell
God, what a horrendously accidentally terrible choice as well, Because, as you remember, she sued Disney because they took her Black Widow movie and put it on Disney Plus and she had a share of the of the proceeds at the box office and that was one of the ways they were going to judge it and pay her. And when they put it on streaming instead, she's like hello you just stole my money.

And they said they had to settle with her there. So this is this is a person who is very clear on what her rights are and is not afraid to take on big names when they are doing her wrong. And she took on her move, her studio that she's made a huge amount of money with and for, because they treated her badly and they had to immediately. I mean, that was one of the lowlights of the whole Bob Chapek era at Disney, because, like again, hey, powerful man, did anybody think to ask the person you guaranteed money to, who is your creative partner in this, how to deal with this? And there's like no, we just decided to do it and we'll pick up the pieces later. And it's up to scarlett johansson to say, yeah, we'll be picking up the pieces in court yeah, jerk, she's a hero.

0:21:53 - Leo Laporte
Good job, scarlett. Come on. All right, let's take a little break and then we're going to talk about. You know, it's supposed to be MacBreak Weekly, but there's another non-apple story we got to cover. Microsoft had a big event yesterday. It's kind of an Apple story because they very clearly they even put their new Surface book side by side with an M3 MacBook Air. Was it an Air or a Pro?

0:22:16 - Jason Snell
Oh, it's a MacBook Air. It was an Air, oh yeah.

0:22:20 - Leo Laporte
Well, anyway, we'll talk about that. That's coming up in just a little bit Jason Snell, Andy Ihnatko and it's great to have Mikah Sargent here filling in for Alex Lindsay Our show today brought to you by ZocDoc. This is such a good thing. So I go into my audiologist and she says you've got a plug eustachian tube. I said what the hell is that? She said ask your ENT. I said I don't have an ENT. She said well, you need one, so go. And I went. To where'd I go? ZocDoc.

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Obviously, we'll be talking about it tomorrow on Windows Weekly, but Microsoft announced a whole bunch of computers based not on Intel chips but on Qualcomm Snapdragon Elite X. Qualcomm had an event last year saying this is the fastest. This is going to be incredible, you're going to well. This is amazing, and Microsoft has now got. They call them Copilot Plus PCs. That's actually the brand Copilot Plus PCs, the idea being that these new Qualcomm chips have NPUs neural processing units built in. They're claiming 40 tops. Remember, apple claimed 38 tops on its top-of-the-line iPad. That's trillion operations per second. That's kind of how you measure AI capability, I guess these days.

0:25:17 - Jason Snell
What do you think? Well, my first question is for you, because you follow Windows more closely than I do Is this the moment that finally the Windows world, after many previous attempts, is this the time where finally, they're going to basically say we're doing our processor transition to ARM and ARM is going to be the future and and the Intel stuff is the past? Because Microsoft has been dithering around with ARM for a while and they try to drag like who's with me and nobody comes with them Unactivately.

0:25:46 - Leo Laporte
The answer to that is absolutely not If Microsoft is nothing if not kind to legacy. And that's really what's held Microsoft back in many respects and what Apple has been very good about is just saying, hey, sorry, you own that old thing, it's no good anymore. Microsoft will? I don't my prediction, it's unknown. But I did ask the same question of the Windows Weekly team, paul Theriot and Richard Campbell. They agreed Microsoft's not abandoning Intel when probably likely never will as long as there's one business in Sri Lanka one little store that's using an Intel PC.

0:26:21 - Jason Snell
It's going to run.

0:26:22 - Leo Laporte
Windows Right.

0:26:23 - Jason Snell
Eight, Well, I guess more is. Is this the moment where the ARM stuff that came to the Mac and really transformed the Mac, especially on the laptop side? Is this the moment where Windows PCs, especially laptops, start just commonly being ARM? And because they've got that, I think it's called Prism, it's like Rosetta, it's a translation layer Like is this the moment where an ARM PC can just sell in quantity and everybody's fine and everybody's okay with it? Because up to now ARM PCs have been oddities, right, they have been not quite right. And I mean it feels to me as an outsider that this may be the moment where all the hardware partners are on board. Where are the benefits of arm processors? Might actually like come to stay on pc laptops yeah, maybe.

0:27:10 - Leo Laporte
I mean, we'll of course it as you said. It remains to be seen, because we don't have them yet. Uh, qualcomm has beencomm and Microsoft have made a lot of claims. We have to try it. Battery life very similar to Apple's silicon Performance in the ballpark. You know, obviously, apple has now moved on to M4. And they didn't compare it to a MacBook Pro, they compared it to MacBook Air, et cetera, et cetera.

0:27:31 - Jason Snell
Right, and these PCs get a load of this. Leo, these PCs are more expensive than the Mac they're comparing it to, which I think is really telling. They've got I mean, for good reasons, they've got baseline specs that are higher. They have 16 gigs of RAM and, like the certain number of neural processing units and all that no-transcript struck me about it. Most is that, finally, it seems like there is a good, solid MacBook air-esque story for pc laptops, and if I was a user I'd be happy there's more to it than that, because, uh, and you've probably run Windows on ARM on your MacBook I have.

0:28:20 - Leo Laporte
It runs quite well under Parallels, in fact, in many respects runs better than Windows on an Intel processor. But Windows on ARM is not the same as Windows on Intel and, most importantly, it's the apps. Even a lot of Microsoft's apps are not yet ported over, so it's good they have a compatibility layer. Again, we have to see how well that works. Most of the stuff people are going to do is going to be running in in the compatibility layer, not native on arm. They did say 80 faster than our previous generation, which is a big jump. 22 hours of local video playback Um, it really. And in fact, if I show you the video, uh, it looks a lot like, uh, um, well, a MacBook air perhaps. I mean, uh, it's very similar but the.

0:29:09 - Andy Ihnatko
But the weird thing is that, like, uh, you would think that if they're comparing directly to the MacBook air, the one thing that the one feature that the new surfaces have the air does not is a fan. And so are they saying that one of the one of the advantages of moving to this kind of architecture should be not only lower power consumption but also lower thermal. So it should be. You would hope that it throttles a lot less. You get the full performance out of the chip. But by putting things, by putting fans on these things I mean they're $3,000, super powerful, like workstation grade Windows laptops that also have fans, and so I'm surprised that, given the significance of this announcement for them, they didn't want to have one of their services be like. Here is an iPad-like computer that is running the full version of Windows 11 and the full suite of desktop apps that are compatible with Qualcomm, as opposed to. Here is the next suite of Surface laptops that don't look and feel all that different.

It is a huge leap and, as usual for Microsoft, the big leap is not so much technology or vision, but trying to get all their developers to back an idea. Remember that Microsoft's first big, organized response to the iPad was to say we are going to create a brand new version of Windows that runs on ARM architecture, that runs special apps that can be developed alongside Windows apps but are not necessarily full Windows apps. Eventually we will have a version of Windows that will run on it. And they were nice. They were lovely. I thought that they combined multi-touch with keyboard and mouse very, very nicely. But developers said we would much rather write apps for people who will be buying those apps as opposed to throwing up putting our putting our own hat in the ring with. You're doing something very, very risky that we don't know if anybody even wants anymore I think you also have to consider who buys windows versus who buys macintosh.

0:31:05 - Leo Laporte
Right, and the people buy windows. If they're not already sold into the windows market, I don't know if they're going to move into the way. I mean, I don't think any well, here's the okay. There's one feature that I'm curious. What you guys think of that is maybe makes me think oh, maybe I should get a windows pc. I have to point out, despite the fact that I co-host windows weekly, I loathe windows.

It is not a good operating system for a variety of reasons. Mac os is more elegant. It doesn't have built-in advertising. It's, I think, more stable. It also, to me, the most important thing is it has a command line. That's a real command line that I can run Unix-like apps and actually real Unix apps on and so forth. But there is this new thing that they're calling recall. Have you seen this? Is this new thing that they're calling recall? Have you seen this? The idea is, every few seconds windows will save an image of what you've been doing and then, at any point, you can scan your pc history and and recall what you were doing. Now it says pre-release product shown subject to change. So it's not even out. There's also to me, I suppose, a little bit of a privacy, uh concern there. The apps have to support it, uh, because they have to deliver some sort of, you know, meta information. With that recall that you can search, what do you think? Is this something that would make you switch from a Mac to a PC?

0:32:37 - Jason Snell
Well, you can get this on the Mac. There's actually a product that does this on the Mac. What's the name?

0:32:41 - Mikah Sargent
of that it's called Rewind.

0:32:42 - Jason Snell

0:32:43 - Mikah Sargent

0:32:43 - Leo Laporte
Well, never mind, I'm definitely not buying this.

0:32:46 - Mikah Sargent
So Rewind is made by the same folks who are making that little.

0:32:57 - Leo Laporte
Oh, the limitless pendant.

0:32:57 - Jason Snell
Oh yeah, pendant yeah, oh yeah, yeah, okay, so I guess that's why it's appealing to me the idea that, uh, I don't have to remember everything. Well, it's. The idea that it's built into the os is interesting, and I do wonder I will see what happens at wwdc. But, like, apple could absolutely make a new version of time machine that, among other things, also sort of like had this ability, because one of the things that it does, that the that the mac product standalone product doesn't do, is have an api where apps will rewind, right. But that is actually there in time machine.

It's just not something that is, it's all interconnected but like search it, yeah, I mean this concept is has been out there for a while now, the idea that basically you're running a screen recording in the background and it's transcribing and it's it's digesting all of that and it's logging what apps you're using and then it allows you to say what, what did I do earlier today, what was I doing, what did I say in that meeting, or whatever, and it's all just sort of sitting there. It's an interesting idea, probably more powerful at the uh, at the system level. So microsoft, having that advantage there, is probably more powerful. I do wonder whether Apple wants to go down the path of watching everything you do, and even if it's on device, it also is incredibly resource intensive, which is one of the reasons why all of these systems do have big hard drives and lots of RAM. Is you're going to use it if you're doing something like logging everything you do on that system?

0:34:15 - Leo Laporte
You can't go up to 64 gigs of RAM in a terabyte hard drive, but that'll cost you $2,400. I like the colors, pretty colors. Apple was kind of dinged on the colors on its iPads, but these are nice, solid, ipad-like colors. You have a Surface laptop, right.

0:34:35 - Mikah Sargent
Surface laptop two, I think. Um, and I've always been impressed by the battery life of it. I was gonna say I am incredibly impressed and also a little perplexed at how quickly microsoft pivoted to now, like, literally, the machine is branded with Copilot.

0:34:57 - Leo Laporte
Oh, it's got a key.

0:34:58 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah, and it's got a key Like AI in its current iteration. The generative AI craze did not take place so long ago that this is happening, and so it's kind of mind boggling to me how much Microsoft has just shifted its focus and, in theory, its future to co-pilot and generate.

0:35:19 - Leo Laporte
Somebody in the discord said they're putting the cart before the horse because you have all these capabilities and there isn't yet software, and you know take care of advantage of it. Maybe there's not a need demonstrated for it. Yeah.

0:35:31 - Andy Ihnatko
I think this is like in the tradition, in the tradition of those old multimedia PCs that give you a dedicated key for America online and ordering pizza.

0:35:38 - Leo Laporte
It's like nobody.

0:35:39 - Andy Ihnatko
it's. It's like, obviously, obviously for future iterations of Windows are going to have opening eye features, we assume, integrated really really closely, but is that the tool that people are going to want to use for that kind of task? That kind of task, are they going to say look for what I do? It's valuable to me to have one AI assistant for just basic intelligent assistant matters, one that is for research, one is for coding, and to put an entire key devoted to that one feature. Yeah, I'm with Mikah, it's like seems very premature and very it seems like something that will date a machine.

0:36:17 - Leo Laporte
Oh wow, you must have bought this laptop in 2024, 2025.

0:36:21 - Andy Ihnatko
Back when Apple, back when Microsoft had that idea that everyone's going to have a multimedia button on their PC and that's going to be the key to the experience.

0:36:32 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah, you can pry my Domino's pizza button.

0:36:34 - Leo Laporte
Maybe I'll have a that was easy button on the wall Bam pizza Notice. By the way, the way they pitch this, even for business, is unlock next gen AI experiences like recall that thing I just talked about and the studio effects. Which Studio effects is silly.

0:36:53 - Mikah Sargent
I don't know.

0:36:54 - Leo Laporte
You know, is that really what you want? This is Copilot plus business pieces for business, and that's the two features they talk.

0:37:01 - Mikah Sargent
I do not like that recall feature for business because they're going to be so right. That's the thing People already are. I remember I think it was actually Lisa who had mentioned that a friend of hers was unaware of using a machine that was given to her by her work and using it and not realizing that the work would have all access and all knowledge of what was going on there. Recall is just going to be even more of a surveillance state system.

0:37:34 - Leo Laporte
Microsoft already has a technology Going to be prompt by the way. Fair enough, they call Viva a surveillance state system.

0:37:37 - Jason Snell
Microsoft already has a technology, it's going to be a problem. By the way, Fair enough.

0:37:41 - Leo Laporte
They call Viva.

0:37:42 - Andy Ihnatko
Well, it's also going to be a problem with compliance. You have a lot of installations where it's like there are contracts with the people that they work for say that. Can you certify that at no point is this data leaving this PC? Do you know exactly where this data is going at all times? And I'm sure they've thought of, I'm sure they thought about that. They are the king of selling things to. You know it's a thousand to faceless government agencies and stuff like that. But that's a big part of the question that I don't really understand.

0:38:06 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah, basically that button will just not work, it's just disabled.

0:38:11 - Leo Laporte
And actually all it does is it launches the thing that there are 14 different, as usual 14 different ways to launch that sidebar. That puts Copilot in there. And yeah, it remains to be seen whether there's anything really useful or whether business will jump on this. But I agree with you, michael, it's pretty impressive that they could launch this like basically turn on a dime and say oh yeah. Ai, that's the thing.

0:38:38 - Jason Snell
As a big company as it is to be. That nimble is kind of impressive. Well, although they're probably repurposing a Cortana button and the, you know, qualcomm's various neural processors were already part of their roadmap by that company that they bought. That came over from Apple to do a startup like it's all all baked in there. But, yes, I do admire the fact that they were able to get all of their marketing and storytelling in line to hit the what they think is the hot thing right now.

That's really, it's really smart and I mean it's funny we're talking about this on MacBreak Weekly, but I think there is also. This is interesting in the sense of how influential Apple's moves I mean the MacBook Air led to the whole Ultrabooks and all of that. Like Apple has been influential in the PC industry for a long time, but that move to Apple Silicon was one of those moments where it's like, oh boy, how does the Windows world respond to that? And it does strike me that this is the best response they've got yet and that if you're a Windows user who wants an experience like the moving to Apple Silicon experience was for Mac users, this may be the moment which is great.

0:39:42 - Andy Ihnatko
And it does make me wonder. We were talking last week about how Apple consistently they consistently improve the power capabilities of the iPad, but they are always happy with 10 hours of battery life. That's the goal. Our goal is to shrink the batteries, make them more efficient so we have more room in there for other stuff.

If it's possible, on the other side of the fence, to get tablets and computers that are running consistently 15 hours, 18 hours, 20 hours, 22 hours is that something that Apple's going to want to reconsider? Because if they're, it's sometimes hard for me to believe that there are people who don't have an opinion on Mac versus PC, but those who are just I'm going to Best Buy or I'm just going to buy something that suits my needs, has the features that I want for the budget that I want, at some point, if they're looking at a MacBook and they're looking at a suitably powerful Windows machine one they will have to charge every single day. The other they'll have to charge every two days or three days. Is that going to tilt people? Is that going to be the sort of thing that gets us a 20 hour ipad?

0:40:40 - Leo Laporte
that's interesting we're going to take a little break. When we come back, let's talk about turning on a dime. It was just we had just started hearing stories last week about people's pictures resurfacing. Uh, with the new iOs, apple at first didn't say anything about it. Then said yes, we know, now there's a fix. So you probably are seeing today fixes on Mac OS and iOS, the latest versions. We'll talk about that in just a little bit.

Mike Sargent so nice to have you filling in for Alex Lindsay. Of course, Mikah is the host of iOS today. You can listen to it. You can listen to it, Everybody can listen to it. It's available.

We kind of keep changing things around because we want to make all of our stuff as accessible as possible. So what we decided to do is make the audio of iOS Today available to all. If you want the video, though, you got to subscribe to Club TWiT. It's only seven bucks a month. You get ad-free versions of all the shows video for Hands-On Windows, Hands-On Macintosh, which Mikah also does iOS Today but you also get the nice, warm and fuzzy feeling that you're supporting what we do. Oh, and let's not forget, you're joining a community of 11,000 great people which you can hang out with anytime in our Club TWiT Discord, discussing not just what's going on on the shows of course they do that as well but everything that geeks are interested in. We've got a book for stacy's book club. It's called high voltage v-a-u-l-t-a-g-e. Uh, we will have that book club. We, I think we've uh, we scheduled it. Let me just see, I think we've scheduled it. Yeah, june 20th, 1 1 PM so you can start reading that book. It's a community of people who are smart, engaged, interested in technology, and it's only seven bucks a month. Community is very important these days. I think we want you to be part of our community. Visit More with MacBreak weekly coming up in just a moment.

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So did anybody here get their you know, formerly deleted nudes back when they updated? I did not. I did not either. I did not. So it turns out that Apple's figured it out. It was, and it's actually pretty simple if you think about it. When people saved or shared a photo from the Apple Photos library, it would make a copy and save it to files. It was in files and then during the update I guess a bug in the update scanned, re-scanned not only the photo library but also all the photos and files and re-added them to the photo library, and that's what was going on. As far as Apple knows, and anybody who was looking knows, it never happened. If you reset your device, it was only when you had a device that had stuff in the files. Andy.

0:46:08 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, in the update blog they mentioned that they attributed it to a database corruption issue. So that makes sense with what you're talking about. If a database, if a post to the database, said that something had been deleted, but it actually had not and they could not retrieve that record, it makes sense that this far afield copy to files would simply resurface again and that if that database were to be rebuilt because you basically built a whole new phone and OS that whatever problem that was in that database would have been fixed. But that's a big it's. It's a big, big problem, like people. Cloud data is saves us from so many different problems.

I again I destroyed a MacBook Pro three hours before I was supposed to deliver a keynote at a conference and I was able to buy a new MacBook and restore my presentation, like in a hectic three hours before the show. But people have to understand that deleted does not necessarily mean deleted. When you're syncing things into the cloud, it's supposed to work, but you have no control over it. And if it's sensitive things that are sent from a relationship from four years ago that you thought you deleted for a damn good reason and suddenly they're reappearing on a device that your current partner has access to that's life altering bug. That's not a oh gosh. We'll download this patch, everything's fine.

0:47:24 - Jason Snell
Just to be clear, though this is not a cloud issue. This is a local library issue where the library locally was corrupted, and so the local library thought, oh, I deleted that, but the file was still actually there, just not in the library. And then, when there was a corruption recovery, it was helpfully restoring an image that it thought should be there. But I mean, your point about the cloud is well taken. You're taking a lot of this stuff on faith, but in this case it was even weirder than that where it's just on your local device. It thought it had deleted it, but there was a database problem and so it was hanging around have you on ios today?

0:48:02 - Leo Laporte
had you heard about from anybody?

0:48:03 - Mikah Sargent
yeah. So we did get that question from a few people who actually did experience the problem and, honestly, when I'm because we nerds want to know what happened behind the scenes. But, to Andy's point, on the whole, for the people who experienced this it didn't seem to be like they cared what went wrong. They just, in the moment, were surprised to see their photos shown. And so the bigger argument or the bigger, not argument, but the bigger concern here was one of privacy.

And I this is one of those situations where you almost wonder, if there's for those people who experienced this issue, is it going to matter to them what actually happened, or is there always going to be now a mistrust that they have, uh, mistrust, or distrust that they have of their device when they delete a photo because they don't know if it's truly deleted?

And my concern comes from the, because this always happens. It's a game of telephone, and it's a terrible game of telephone where the tech blogs tell a story and then the producers who work for local news read a tweet from one of those tech blogs and then they take the out of context tweet and then they write a story that goes into the local news and then it becomes something even bigger and something worse, and I'm curious to see how this one starts to spill out, because it won't be long until I do hear from a family member who shares a facebook post with me and asks me wait, are my photos actually being deleted, or is apple keeping them for evidence for the cia and the fbi, because that's where it's getting? And just to be clear.

0:49:54 - Leo Laporte
They're not. You're keeping it locally, it's in. And just to be clear they're not. You're keeping it locally, it's in files. We want to be really, really clear. Yes, please, it was in on your phone, it was on your device. It didn't come from the cloud, it came from your device. But of course people don't hear that.

0:50:11 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, and Mikah, you're absolutely right, because you left out, like the last and the most fatal step, when it becomes like a late night talk show monologue joke or when it becomes an snl skit, where it really gets collapsed down to oh well, apple, apple turns out that they're the hippies who like, they're like the, they're like the, the people at the at the photo, at the photo express that make copies of stuff that they think are interested in. It's like no, that's not, that's good joke, but it's not, that's not it at all.

0:50:35 - Leo Laporte
Whose obligation is it? It's an area.

0:50:38 - Andy Ihnatko
Well, well, I mean it's. It's an obligation to make sure that we educate we meaning us, apple, everybody, consumers that sometimes mistakes happen. You think that something has been deleted. That doesn't mean that you tossed it in the shredder. It means that a sequence of events has been engaged that, in most cases, will result in this data being accessible. But you don't necessarily know that that's irretrievable. You don't necessarily know that there's a bug someplace where, again, a very, very well-meeting and very, very seriously security and privacy-minded company like Apple has overlooked for a length of time that you have to understand that there's an area in which you have to educate yourself. We have to educate people. We have to educate people people, companies have to keep your data secure, but you also have a responsibility for taking extra steps for data that, if you ever thought that this was ever going to get out and have any sort of problem anywhere, to handle it in a way that is going to be hardened against a bug such as this one, it tough because I mean, what is the burden on a user?

0:51:37 - Leo Laporte
to not be stupid, I mean they're not stupid, just uninformed. Like there's so much work you have to do to understand how any of this works I mean, it's easy to blame local news for, you know, misinterpreting it and kind of scaring people. That's their business. Um, I don't. I don't know how apple could be more clear, and we certainly try to be completely clear, jason. What's the answer?

0:52:00 - Jason Snell
here we live. Well, I'm glad you asked it, leo, because I have the answer. No, we live in a world where people, to a certain degree, people are going to believe what they want to believe, and I think this is what we were talking about last week about the problem with the, the real problem with that hydraulic press ad being that Apple didn't read the room and didn't understand the vibe of sort of like how people are feeling about tech. They're suspicious of it, they're scared of it, they're a little overwhelmed and they think that they're doing things behind their back and that you need to be clear in those circumstances. But the fact is, you know, we live in a world where you know somebody out there is going to be like oh, oh well, but the earth is flat and they didn't land on the moon, and aliens are real and are among us and there's. They put fluoride in the water and the contrails in the air, are actually seeding chemicals to change our minds and and 5g is in your blood with the covid vaccine and all these things, and they're all. They're all bs, they're all not true, but people believe them and, to a certain degree, if people believe them, it's you know the system has already failed of educating them to be critical thinkers. They're over, they've broken in some way, and what can you do about that? You cannot. You just try to reach reasonable people and explain what's going on.

But this is the thing, like I'm not a big believer in something like the singularity, like the idea that that technology increases at an exponential rate and it leaves people behind.

But I got a little singularity vibe here a little bit, which is some of the stuff, and the AI stuff is going to be even more so.

People don't understand how it works and because of that, it's very easy to leap into those shadowy areas where people don't understand and impart whatever conspiracy theory, whatever ill feeling. You've got about some group in the world to the story, right, and so if it's a distrust of big tech, that's why Apple's never going to convince everybody. But I think Apple's decision to talk about privacy all the time and leaving things on your device all the time, while self-interested in so many different ways ways, has proven to be a pretty good place to be, because at least they can say look, give us some trust, like in our discord for our members. People are like oh yeah, I want microsoft looking at everything that I do on my computer all the time and it's like there's a distrust there and it's a danger. But apple is, I think, better positioned to deal with it. But any tech company needs to be aware that as tech advances further and further the distrust grows and I think it's going to keep growing.

0:54:26 - Leo Laporte
So if your friends and family come to you and say I hear that my old photos are going to potentially resurface, you tell them that's not because they're in the cloud, that's because they are on your phone in another spot in the files section, and that in the. You know it was a bug in the Apple photos app that was re-indexing. It picked those up and added them. You can delete them from the file section, delete them from photos. It's gone for good. Apple never had a copy.

0:54:56 - Mikah Sargent
Their eyes are going blurry as you're saying all this. It's a lot that you're saying. What?

0:54:59 - Leo Laporte
if you said yeah, what do you say? Well, one thing you say is get 17.5.1.

0:55:07 - Mikah Sargent
Update. This was an issue that, because it happened, they're now aware of. If you upgrade to the latest version, it's going to fix this problem. This problem was a problem. It wasn't something that was built in, and any of the conspiracy theories about it being for the sake of holding onto evidence are inaccurate. Just get the update and that will take care of this software bug.

0:55:33 - Jason Snell
And why didn't they delete it? I think the answer is they thought they did, but there was a bug that meant that, even though it was marked as deleted, it didn't actually delete it by accident. And then a later update saw that it was there and brought it back in error. But it's about a bug breaking the photo library. It's basically like look, it's the Photos app. Do you believe there are bugs in the Photos app? You do so? That's what it is, but that's like it thought. I mean, Apple's not trying to keep these things around. They thought it was deleted, but obviously, from a computer standpoint, something got marked and then it didn't get followed up on, which is a. That's a bug. That's a mistake. We that's a bug, that's a mistake.

0:56:13 - Andy Ihnatko
We have this is an area where Go ahead. This is just quickly. This is just an area where, like Apple's, messaging can sometimes backfire. Like they absolutely do respect privacy, they absolutely do pride themselves on that as a privacy and security being a foundational concept for the company everything that they do. However, the more they keep underscoring this that, hey, this is the phone that will keep all of your data safe and secure, you will never have something pop up that you thought that had been deleted before, and then, when you're just simply faced with the fact that sometimes software screws up nothing is perfect people might feel a little bit unjustly conned because they believe that, oh, I thought that the iPhone was different. I thought this would never happen with an iPhone, but this happened to me. This is why part of the messaging needs to be that all software is fallible, even with the best of intentions.

0:57:05 - Leo Laporte
We've crossed the Snell line, though, and I think that that's an important RIP. We should note this. On May 21st, at 1219 pm Pacific time, we crossed the Snell line. I'm going to call it the Snell line, but it's the line where stuff gets so complicated that there's no easy way to explain what went wrong. That the only answer is it's OK now. It's OK now, yeah but that's hard.

0:57:34 - Jason Snell
That's the problem with the singularity. Uh, yeah, but that's hard. That's the problem with.

That's the problem with the singularity the idea that, like, it gets so complex for people that they don't your your, your answer won't help right, like you can they have to take it on faith either way, and I I mean we all more technical people have had to deal with with people who are less technical for a long time, but it's only getting worse where the the complexity, like trying to explain how AI stuff works, it's like that's. That's even hard for me to do and I'm a technical person and and and the more of it you have to take on faith and right now and this is that whole reading the room thing right now I think there's precious little faith in the technology companies and the software, and that's the danger is that you know you don't. If you don't have that level of trust, you start to think it's all you know. They're all out to get you.

0:58:23 - Leo Laporte
It's kind of. Actually, yeah, it's a problem in the world in general. As the world has become more complex, we naturally seek for simplistic answers to what's going on, which often end up being wrong, conspiracy, mindedminded, paranoid, whatever. It's only going to get worse. The world is not getting less complex, it's getting more complex, and our feeble little human brains just don't have a good way of understanding it. And so we're going to make up stories, and the stories are often gross misrepresentations. And the worst thing and you pointed this out, jason is that they will be stories that will be predisposed in the direction that our biases are, which, in this case, is tech is out to get you. There's nothing private. Actually, forget tech, they're out to get you, nothing's private. And that just it just really exacerbates the paranoia. I don't know what the solution is. This is kind of the modern, a problem of the modern world, I guess. All right, let's take a little break. We're going to talk some more about other things having to do with apple, but first a word from our sponsor. Actually, this has to do with apple too. This is what you use use to do iOS today Ecamm, e-c-a-m-m, the leading live streaming and video production studio built for Mac.

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You can automatically send Ecamm Live's audio and video output right into the Zoom meeting or a Zoom webinar or a Zoom event. If you do those, boy, you need this to really up your game. You can create individual participant audio and video recordings we call them ISOs. During a live stream or recording, you can add Zoom chat messages to your meeting or broadcast recording. They pop up as text overlays and you have a lot of control how they pop up. It's all documented at their website. This is a sea change. This is gonna make Zoom calls fun. Join the. That's saying something. Join the thousands of worldwide entrepreneurs, marketing professionals, podcasters like us, educators, musicians and other Mac users who use Ecamm Live daily. You got a Mac. You need Ecamm. Get a month free so you can really see what's going on when you subscribe to any of Ecamm's plans. I've been an Ecamm Pro user for years now. Use the promo code twit at checkout. Promo code twit at checkout. You'll see many of our friends in the Ecamm videos, like Doc Rock, who is an ambassador for them, and Luria Petrucci, Kali Lewis, who's also an ambassador for them. They use Ecamm. I think we'll be using a lot more Ecamm in the days to come. Ecamm's amazing. Okay. Moving actually a good point from Teiku in our Discord, it isn't really an issue if you're using an encrypted file system, because if, at the end of the device, life keys deleted it's random ones and zeros you don't have to do a secure delete, right? It's all gobbledygook to everyone except you. Is that true, though? If you, so, I have files loading up to iCloud, right? So those nudes went up to iCloud, right? So those nudes went up to iCloud. By the way, it's so funny that CNBC. It's not nudes, it's whatever pictures, right? For some reason, there's again mainstream media. They said it's your nudes. No, it's whatever pictures, yeah.

1:03:23 - Mikah Sargent
For a lot of people it was previous relationships.

1:03:26 - Leo Laporte
Oh, maybe that's why it was dead people.

1:03:28 - Andy Ihnatko
The first reports from Reddit were talking about specific instances in which this was extremely bad for me personally.

1:03:34 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, but it doesn't have to be nudes.

1:03:35 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, exactly, but that's where the first reports came from.

1:03:38 - Leo Laporte
Okay, it does seem a little salacious, but anyway, it's catnip for headline writer. Exactly, it's good link bait. I forgot what I was saying. Anyway, nudes, they always get me Every time nudes sell. But yes, that's a good reason to use an encrypted file system. Is it encrypted when I when on iCloud? It's encrypted at rest, but Apple has keys to it, right, is encrypted in?

1:04:04 - Jason Snell
transit. No, it's, I think it's end to end, yeah, okay.

1:04:08 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, so maybe another thing, another opportunity to tell your friends and neighbors. And here's the good news by default, unless you turn FileVault off, it's encrypted everywhere. The only person that can see those nudes is you, not even Apple, even if it's on the cloud. Yeah, is that right?

1:04:27 - Mikah Sargent
That is correct. Yeah, is that right. That is correct. Um, that doesn't help if you and your uh significant other have the trust level that they have access to your phone. They open up your phone, they see your ex-wife on there. They go. Why do you have this photo of your ex-wife still? I thought you said you deleted all I see the problem.

1:04:45 - Leo Laporte
Okay, business insider, maybe apple says says its latest iOS update fixes the issue that caused some NSFW.

1:04:53 - Mikah Sargent
It wasn't just NSFW photos. Jordan Hart of Business Insider.

1:04:58 - Jason Snell
Although probably deleted photos, they're more common in the group of like photos that have been deleted.

1:05:05 - Mikah Sargent
I keep all of mine. I keep my notes baby.

1:05:08 - Leo Laporte
I love those it's just deleted photos. Okay, was the Mac OS update which also was updated today? Was that related or was that just some independent?

1:05:18 - Mikah Sargent
I mean, it has photos on it. Yeah, maybe.

1:05:21 - Jason Snell
Yeah, but it's not quite the same app, so it may be not a big bug. I'm not clear whether this is a bug across Mac and iPhone, or if it's just iPhone or what is a bug across mac and iphone, or if it's just iphone, or what?

1:05:32 - Leo Laporte
just take this as an opportunity to update all your things, because there is a mac os update as well as an ios update. So is it 14 3, 1, 5, 14, 5?

that's right uh, it says you know facetime and no okay, uh, according to our good friend at the eclectic light company I just love his blog. Uh, Mr Oakley says it's the best release this cycle. So get it, kids, if you've been delaying updating Sonoma or upgrading. From any earlier version of mac os, version 14.5 looks the most. Version 14.5 looks the most stable and free from bugs, he says. One broad indicator is its rate of writing to the log, which determines how long log entries in the log can be retained, as macOS thins log entries largely to maintain the size of its log files. Anyway, shorter log files means fewer problems. Same iMac Pro has been running 14.5 continuously for six days but has much, 25% fewer log entries. Okay, it also has firmware updates for all models supported by Sonoma.

Did not know that Apple does it. Unlike PCs, apple does its firmware updates without saying, hey, we're going to do this, hey, we did those, we did. Yeah, as of Mac OS 14.5, the oldest Intel Macs that are still being provided firmware updates are the iMac 17.1, pro 1.1, MacBook 9.1, MacBook Air 8.1, MacBook Pro 13.1. Anyway, you can see the list. So this is good, get it. Do MacBook Pro 13.1. Anyway, you can see the list. So this is good, get it. Do it, enjoy it, bop it, bop it. It's the best Release this cycle. It makes sense as you go that you're going to have fewer, fewer, fewer, fewer problems, unless you find another big bug. One hopes Unless you find another big bug.

One hopes Sonoma's next scheduled update is 14.6. Nah, Really that comes out to 14.5?, which may prove to be the first of its security updates. Time is now running out for Monterey, which probably only has a couple more security updates before it loses all support. Thank you, mr Oakley for this, just in. Thank you, mr oakley for this, just in. Um, anything else to say about these updates? I mean, we always get them, yeah get them, yeah, exactly ipads there's always a reason.

1:08:03 - Andy Ihnatko
There's always a reason to wait one week, but there's never a reason not to get them I fix it did its teardowns of the new ipads.

1:08:11 - Leo Laporte
They said, by the way, repairability a little better on the ipad pro 13 we've. This is a sharam mokhtari writing. We've spent the last few days examining the new ipad pro 13. That's, uh, the big, big boy and boy is it an impressive bit of technology yeah, they thought the, the, the.

1:08:31 - Andy Ihnatko
They had one piece of good news and lots of pieces of bad news. The good news was that they're reporting that they moved the battery design so that now it's basically right underneath the screen, which doesn't mean you pop off the screen and you can replace a battery. There are a couple other things you have to do, but they're comparing it to previous iterations of the iPad Pro, which you really had to gut out the entire thing just to replace a battery, which was pretty bad. But they also they are definitely on team.

Nobody asked for a thinner iPad because they're so they're. They're singling out. They're singling out that one of the things that they had to do to get that extra one point whatever millimeter was to, they could know. Then they're saying they didn't have enough. Apple didn't have enough room to put things in with screws. A lot more things are in with adhesives and a lot of these components are now almost impossible to remove without damaging them because of that but the good news is, if you just remove the screen, you can replace the battery, which is a big step forward.

1:09:26 - Leo Laporte
It's still not that easy to remove the screen, but but you, but you can't do it um yeah literally nobody asked apple for an even thinner device.

They write, and had apple not made such a big deal of it, no one would have noticed, unless they had calipers to hand. It's always fun to look at these. I love these teardowns. Look at that motherboard, or what do they call it? The? Uh, daughterboard sip. No, they have a name for it the master, not the master, not the. Anyway, that thing, the logic board, that's it. It's teensy wincy, teensy wincy. Uh, the base model 256 comes with one nand flash storage chip. That does still impact your read write speeds, uh, so you know the one terabyte is the way to go. Um, they say you know it's an ipad. Oh, look at this x-ray of the pencil pro too.

1:10:21 - Andy Ihnatko
Wow, very pretty reiterating that it is absolutely impossible to repair and becomes e-waste as soon as the battery dies.

1:10:29 - Leo Laporte
also mentioning that he actually cut himself trying to get the thing One our teardown of the pencil pro was so rough, I literally bled all over the table trying to get the battery out without causing irreversible damage to the electronics and, despite the bloodshed, I still failed to avoid breaking it. Wow, I guess you know, in order to get something that small, that small, light, thin, and you just can't make it. But the battery's gonna die. We know that it's gonna die sooner than anything else does I mean, that's that's the bummer of.

1:11:00 - Andy Ihnatko
A lot of things are in apple's line, like the like, like the airpods. It does bum me out that I would be paying 200 for something that really has to become e-waste in a two or three years time because they are just not replaceable, and in the case of the AirPods I don't even. I have to be fair and I don't know how you would make it easy to repair that kind of a thing, especially because in three years they're probably gonna be so much better. I might want to actually buy a replacement with the Apple Pencil. It is a little bit heartbreaking that there is.

I won't necessarily assume that there is no way to design it so that the battery could be replaceable. However, I just think that it's one of those things where Apple doesn't see that as a priority, so it's not a problem that they're interested in solving. Also, to be fair, we're not talking about a hard to replace battery on a twelve hundred dollar iPad pro. We're talking about a pencil that costs like $100, $130. It's still heartbreaking to chuck something in the trash just because of a rechargeable battery that can't be replaced, but it's not as big of a heartbreak as saying that. Well, I didn't think I'd be spending $1,000 on a brand new laptop or brand new tablet today, but because of short-sighted engineering decisions, I simply have to. Instead of spending $180 for a battery replacement, I literally do have to do that thing.

1:12:14 - Leo Laporte
Well, talk about heartbreak. Mark Gurman broke my heart on Sunday when he said he didn't think the Mac Pro or Mac Studio will be refreshed at all this year. He says next year for the Mac Studio and Mac Pro, a two-year refresh cycle for the high-end Macs. Does that seem credible, Jason?

1:12:35 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I think what happened here is that there was maybe. He reported earlier that there might even have been an M3 chip that hadn't debuted yet. It sounds to me like maybe Apple has just decided, in an M4 era there is really no point in putting out another m3 mac and that they might as well just turn the page and that those two products can withstand another year. I mean thinking about it. You know that I'm still using an m1 and it's fine and and I knowing the m4 is and how much the M4 is better than the M3 already I would not buy an M3 Mac Studio if it came out. I would wait and think about the M4 and I will seriously think about the M4 next year. But I think they can afford it with Mac Pro Similarly. I mean they've only done that one iteration of Mac Pro. Mac Pro buyers are used to them not getting updated very often. I think they just decided there's no point in going down that route of more m3 max. Just turn the page and get to them.

I'm more surprised that he says that the MacBook air isn't going to get updated until next year, just because I imagine that's a volume issue. Where they're, they can't make the chips enough to to fulfill the volume that they will have a MacBook air sales, so they have to wait it out. But that would be the volume that they will have of MacBook Air sales, so they have to wait it out. But that would be the one that you know. Macbook Air should be leading the charge and not at the end of the cycle, but this time it sounds like it's going to be at the end of the cycle and it basically was for the M3 as well. I don't think that they would prefer that. I think this has to do with the new chip processes they're using not being able to fulfill their most popular Mac model when it first debuts, and so they have to wait.

1:14:15 - Leo Laporte
I think they may have known as well, because remember we were puzzled when the M3 came out that there didn't seem to be the interconnect that was in M1 and M2 that made the ultra versions of those chips possible. The ability to stack two of them was missing on the M3. And I remember there was quite a bit of puzzlement over that.

1:14:34 - Jason Snell
Maybe apple knew all along they were never going to do an ultra that that there was no point in building that in because they were going to jump to m4. Yeah, yeah, it's a question of how long ago apple uh rejiggered its chip uh plans because they knew tsmc was going to have to go to a new process. But it was certainly measured in years, and maybe many years, maybe two, three years, maybe even more. Looking ahead, because I know there's a story that we haven't talked about yet, about how Apple is over in Taiwan meeting with TSMC about their two nanometer process.

1:15:06 - Mikah Sargent
What it's happening.

1:15:08 - Jason Snell
But they had to work on this so far ahead of time. I I have a great admiration for all the people at apple who have to do public facing stuff, because unless they're in marketing they're working on. They're working so far ahead yeah that like when they're like oh hey, johnny srugi tell me about the m3 and he's like oh geez, that was like four years ago. Oh okay, I don't remember Because they're so far ahead, I don't remember the answer.

1:15:33 - Andy Ihnatko
And meanwhile they released something like the Mac Studio, not knowing how it's going to affect the balance of marketing between the entire Mac line. And they might decide that they made a big bet on let's make a super, super powerful Mac Mini sort of thing. We don't know whether that's going to steal people away from a possible Mac pro market. Now is it less important for us to make a tower standard Mac pro? What's it going to do to the Mac minis? And that's why you tend to see a lot of calls being made on the field because even Apple, they can, they, they, they make great plans years in advance. But only until they see that spreadsheet do they realize that okay, we don't need an M3. We don't need this product. We need it, but it's not as important as fulfilling this channel that we feel as though we're underserving and we're leaving money on the table there.

1:16:18 - Leo Laporte
The report comes from market intelligence company Trendforce, which cites a local report that COO Jeff Williams is visiting Taiwan and meeting with TSMC's president CC Wei. Actually, that came from Economic Daily News. The low-profile visit. This sounds like speculation was made to secure TSMC's advanced manufacturing capacity, potentially two nanometer process booked for Apple in-house AI chips. According to Economic Daily News, they did book up all of the three nanometer production a hundred percent for the a17, the m3 and the m4 that's the apple playbook right I mean, they do that they've done this for a long time with lots of components that they find important.

1:17:07 - Jason Snell
Is that they I mean that's the advantage of having tens of billions of dollars in cash on hand, yeah, and also it's the disadvantage of being Apple and knowing that every product you make has to ship at huge volume is they end up playing these games where they'll go in and they'll just buy memory or they'll buy storage or they'll buy capacity and give the money to build the factory to make the chips, because they know that they're going to need all of that capacity or they can't do their job. And if you talk to other companies, they will tell you that it's frustrating, because they're like oh, I'm really looking forward to using that process and it's like well, yeah, it's sold out to Apple for the first year and a half.

1:17:46 - Leo Laporte
TSMC must make those Qualcomm Snapdragon Elite chips right, or maybe not. Maybe Samsung or somebody else makes them. What is the node on those?

1:17:58 - Mikah Sargent
I don't know.

1:17:59 - Andy Ihnatko
I don't know I don't know, and the fact that Apple's orching other companies out of two nanometer process doesn't mean that they have necessarily a performance advantage. There are things that are inherent to two nanometer versus three nanometer, whatever, but it's so. This isn't this. Apple would not be spending money just to keep something out of other people's hands. It really is. Just as Jason said, how many times has Apple been up against the wall because they could not get a supply of a component that they needed? Almost never, and the culprit has always been Intel, and now that's not a problem anymore. Like and the culprit has always been Intel, and now that's not a problem anymore. When you're the only manufacturer, the only source of the hardware, you have to make sure you can fulfill every demand of everybody, every customer in the entire world.

1:18:44 - Leo Laporte
So yeah, that's why you buy stuff five years in advance. Kev Brewer says TSMC does indeed make the Snapdragon Elite, the snapdragon elite.

1:18:49 - Jason Snell
I don't sounds like I. I found a story that said they have a dual foundry strategy, so they're also using samsung for some and tsmc for some.

1:18:56 - Leo Laporte
But yeah, yeah I see the um snapdragon 4 gen 2 is made by samsung on a four nanometer process. Uh, that's the latest one. That's on wikipedia yeah, I love.

1:19:09 - Jason Snell
I love this because this is the stuff that regular kind of consumers don't have to worry about.

But like this is where these are the trenches in which the battles are won and lost in a lot of tech spaces. Because if you don't have the parts, you can't make it, and if you get them for cheaper and then the prices go up, you can sell your thing for less or make more profit. And if you can't I mean if you can't get them at all then you are at a disadvantage to your competitors. And it all happens sometimes years in advance, it's and it's opaque to us on the outside. And then you look at it and you're like well, why is it that they have this and the other guy doesn't? And the answer is probably it's complicated and it started three years ago in Taiwan.

1:19:48 - Leo Laporte
Right Now, here we are. It'd be a great movie, I think, but maybe only I would enjoy it. The Snapdragon X Elite is a four nanometer chip. So when they say, oh, apple snapped up all of TSMC's three nanometer chips, maybe they did and maybe that's why Snapdragon is based on a four nanometer process. They have used Samsung previously. This table, which is on Wikipedia, does not say the fab for this, for the Snapdragon Elite, but I'm going to guess it's Samsung. I mean, everything's been Samsung all along. Yeah, huh, interesting, interesting. Let's see what else before we go to our picks of the week.

Apple's 27 app store fee. Apple says we're trying to comply with the law. Your honor epic says hey, phil schiller, uh, testified, uh, on friday, remember they're, they're having a hearing over whether this is adequate to responding. Uh, to respond to the requirement that apple do open the store. Uh, apple fellow phil schiller, testifying friday on the fourth day of the hearing, said we're trying to enable what the law requires. Your honor, there was mention in the order about if apple has a right to a fee even without developers using its in-app payment, and we decided it does the hearing going on of course, before if I added that at the end. You know, you probably figured that out.

1:21:14 - Jason Snell
I like that you got him like he's some sort of old west outrageous I may be just a simple southern farmer with a law degree.

1:21:27 - Andy Ihnatko
However, one thing seems evidently clear.

1:21:34 - Leo Laporte
This is Judge Yvonne Gonzalez-Rogers hearing in Oakland to see whether Apple's new fees comply with her order. Schiller was on the stand for 90 minutes along with Tim Cook and Luca Mastri. I think my sense is that Rogers was not thrilled. Rogers repeatedly chastised the senior director for business management for the app store, carson Oliver, for statements about how Apple decided it would charge 27%. She said how did you justify? She said given that many app stores goods and services made outside the app store uh, often, uh, it's about 12.3 percent the cost. How did you justify the other 15 you're charging? She said how? Huh, I don't know if she said it like that the analysis group study found the value of those services the services apple provides over and above you know what the other companies would do would amount to be 12 percent, 0.3 percent of the low end to 92 percent at the high end, depending on factors like the size of the developer. And you're charging 27 percent.

Rogers interjected. Oliver said the Apple executives believe the effective rate of the commission is lower than that. That's a big assumption. The judge replied your assumptions are just that. There's an assumptions and that makes an assumption. There's no data for that. That's not true. Oliver said Sounds like she's not swayed that Apple'sIG is fair.

1:23:16 - Andy Ihnatko
I guess is what she's saying Is that my?

1:23:17 - Leo Laporte
is my interpretation of this all correct? It's litigation all the way down there.

1:23:21 - Andy Ihnatko
I'm glad that this is going to be argued point by point by point by point, all the way down to the font on the, on the agreement, on the, on the settlements, and that's again as long as apple, apple has to explain their decision making, as opposed to saying we're apple, we don't have to explain, we just do.

1:23:37 - Leo Laporte
you're welcome oh, I get it okay, so. So apple commissioned the analysis group to see what the rate should be, and the analysis studies showed that half the rate would be reasonable. Ah, and unfortunately, uh, that is now showing up at trial. That's why carson oliver had to uh, get on the stand. Um, phil schiller said the world has changed. Thank you, phil. Uh, and linking out is being required. He said I do not have a preference against link out. I want to make the solution safe for our customers. That that's what I'm focused on safety.

1:24:12 - Jason Snell
Oh yes, you know, that is one of my favorite Apple arguments, which is we live in a world where people have been using web browsers for 25, 30 years and buying things on the Internet for 25 or 30 years, and yet at Apple, if you listen to Apple executives, they really believe that the hyperlink is something that their users are just kind of like. Oh no, what happened? I touched a web address and I I a web browser opened and now I'm in the bad lands and I don't know what to do. It's like people. How much money, how many things does amazon sell every day from their website? I think, for Pete's sake, it's 30 years. Web links to buy things, web links for documents are not some like guy on the street saying you want to buy this fake watch, buddy, you know, it's just not. It's so. It's completely detached from reality. It's ridiculous.

1:25:05 - Andy Ihnatko
I hate it when Apple uses their Hedley Lamar voice. You know, they remind me of that scene from Blazing Saddles where he said we have taken away a million acres of land from the indigenous people that we have deemed to be unsafe for their use. Oh, my goodness, we have to. You have to look after them. All the time it's like no, you don't, you just wanted the land and you took it, so it's yeah.

1:25:25 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I mean, they make better arguments and they make worse arguments. This is the worst argument that web PR customers must be protected from the Internet. Come on.

1:25:37 - Andy Ihnatko
If the developer had an opportunity to develop a personal relationship, business relationship and user program relationship with their users, bedlam. People don't want to get email from developers telling them that they've got an important bug fix coming out or that they've listened to their specific comment, and here's specifically what they're doing. People get too much email as it is, come on.

1:26:13 - Leo Laporte
You're welcome developer who runs panic right, does so many uh great programs. Who spotted an ebay auction for apple employee number 10's uh badge. Wow, a piece of apple history only 950 dollars. Uh, it included a handwritten map so she could find her way around one infinite loop, except cable was suspicious, he said he poured through the provided pictures. At first it looked good the plastic was scuffed with age, the tape on the map was yellow, the logo was mostly correct, uh-oh, but it also felt a little off. The scuffing looked sandpapery and the splotches on the map felt overcooked and I couldn't stop laughing or I'm sorry, sorry looking, but I think he laughed later at the typewritten part yes, which the the badge was made before. Obviously desktop publishing, right?

1:26:59 - Jason Snell
so they stuck it in a typewriter and it's a perfect 77. It's a perfect monospace typewriter font instead of the, because the way typewriters work right is like they hit the ribbon differently in the different letters, and so it, and so it's not all perfect. But so this person just used Courier or whatever and was like yep, that's a typewriter, it's good.

1:27:17 - Leo Laporte
It's a little too good. So good suspicions. Cablesass are confirmed by Apple employee number eight, chris Espinoza. Chris Espinoza, who tweeted that's fake, both of them.

1:27:31 - Jason Snell
He still works there. He got a job as a teenager. He's employee number eight. Still works it out. Writing documentation and still there and he has, and there's a picture in the story he has a laminated badge from that era and it does not look like he said the borders are too wide, and like it's a fake.

1:27:48 - Andy Ihnatko
It wasn't taken with a. Polaroid but a flash. Yeah, exactly.

1:27:53 - Jason Snell
And wide and like it's a it's just a flash. Yeah, exactly and he knows that's not sherry livingston, which is kind of a giveaway that that wasn't taken with the polaroid with the flash.

1:27:58 - Leo Laporte
The laminate dimensions are wrong. There's a computer font, not an ibm selectric orator type ball. Yes, they use orator. That's not my original sketch, which was on a national engineering pad. So cable says yeah, one of the most qualified people on the planet Earth to say this is a fake is saying it's a fake.

1:28:19 - Jason Snell
I wanted to just as a side note here, because I love that post so much, but I want to say there is a font I wrote about it in 2021. It is a typewriter font that uses advanced features of OpenType to generate different glyphs for the same letters at random, so that if you want something that really looks like it was on a typewriter and therefore inconsistent from letter to letter, there is actually a font called TT2020 that does it. It is hilarious and it's huge and probably don't want it, but I love the idea that somebody was like I know how we can make it look like a typewriter. We can use incredibly complicated modern font technology to make a typewriter font and it's it's super cool.

1:29:06 - Mikah Sargent
I love this. I'm getting it right now. He made it for.

1:29:09 - Leo Laporte
TV and movies. Because he said, yeah, exactly, he'd see Go ahead, danny.

1:29:15 - Andy Ihnatko
I was saying, cause that is one of the things that always annoys me. When, like, they say, oh, here's a, oh, I got, I got a letter from so-and-so, it's like, no, you didn't, that's not how you go on. Ebay're good and no, you need. That kind of verisimilitude is like it just annoys the hell out of me. The other thing is like newspapers and like, oh well, gosh, did you see today's newspaper, 19th co-worker from 1972. No, what is it? It's like here's the today's New York Times and that's the size of like a pamphlet. It's like, no, you should be able to like make a pirate hat in it, make a boat out of it. It's like I know that, I know that we're old people by by by, by comparison, but like I can't imagine the people that will make sure they get the stars and the constellations correct for a certain date, but they don't care that. Like you're using like a can of Coke with, like the 1998 logo and it's supposed to be like 2000. It's supposed to be 1970.

1:30:15 - Jason Snell
It happens a lot with throwback sports uniforms where they're using the wrong fonts or the wrong colors or whatever, but this is so that every letter in TT 2020 has nine different variations to mimic the various sort of like ink. Not quite right, hitting the ribbon at the wrong angle. It's just very clever, very smart. I love it. So, anyway, that person for their next fraud, although the the thing sold.

So that's the end of that story by the time cable did all of this and it already sold um, and you didn't mention, I think. But when cable asked them uh, this seems because cable likes to string people on and ask them questions about this stuff that the people, that fraudsters, and he said, like you know, this seems a little questionable and they're like no, no, no, it's legit.

I've got a receipt from the german red cross where I bought it german red and it turns out then, after some time passed, a receipt in quotes from the german red cross appeared that several German readers pointed out is using bad German and is also itself a fraud. So amazing, just amazing. It's frauds all the way down. I love it.

1:31:19 - Mikah Sargent
The German Red Cross.

1:31:20 - Jason Snell
The German Red Cross. So when in doubt, when you're looking, just say oh no, no, no, no, I bought it at the German Red Cross.

1:31:27 - Andy Ihnatko
And his first communication. Oh no, I bought this as a lot of stuff off of eBay in 2002. Like, okay, that wasn't the, I didn't know. The German Red Cross was running eBay in 2002.

1:31:38 - Leo Laporte
So yeah, $946 plus $55 shipping. Somebody did buy it. There were three bids. I feel bad for the person who bought it. The seller has 100% positive feedback, which means people are very happy with his fraudulent.

1:31:52 - Jason Snell
Yeah Well, they don't know. If you don't know it's fake, it's real to you.

1:31:57 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, honestly you put it in a frame, you post it on the wall. Your guests are not going to say, oh, that's obviously fake.

1:32:03 - Jason Snell
It's just your ears are going to price that thing and be, and they're going to be like. I found this cable sassler blog post from 30.

1:32:15 - Leo Laporte
You think I mean I think Cable does.

1:32:17 - Jason Snell
He's Batman. Remember we talked about how he digitized all of those records that he found that were like Disney archive records and put them on archiveorg. Cable is very whimsical and cares a lot about certain subjects and is never afraid to follow up and follow that thread where it leads. He would have actually been a great journalist, because it's one of those skills, which is he just doesn't let it go. He doesn't just roll his eyes in the back of his head and go, oh well, that's probably fake. Whatever he goes hey, chris Espinosa, you know about this, what is this? And then he talks to them and he gets the German Red Cross story and like that is, that is cable. So yeah, it is sort of a hobby for him to to do this kind of stuff and bless him for it.

1:33:00 - Andy Ihnatko
Bless him. You're right. That's why so many people like us like gun into journalism, like when, at a young age, you realize that wait a minute that that well, you have a question. You realize that somebody somewhere in the world knows the answer to this, and every answer is probably findable. And the first time that you actually talked to the person who did the engraving job on the 1978 quarter and he tells you exactly why it is the way it is, you realize that you feel like you've got a superpower. There has to be a person who did that, and maybe that person is still alive and maybe they can tell you the story of why that happened.

1:33:33 - Leo Laporte
Cable also gets credit for making the first hey Guys YouTube video 17 years ago. This is his review of the Nintendo DS Lite.

1:33:44 - Jason Snell
Hey guys, it's Cable here with a quick video review of the new Nintendo.

1:33:47 - Andy Ihnatko
DS Lite he invented.

1:33:48 - Leo Laporte
Hey Guys, he did I mean really.

1:33:54 - Andy Ihnatko
The original Nintendo DS Lite.

1:33:55 - Leo Laporte
In fact, he really kind of invented this whole style. This is 18 years ago.

1:33:59 - Jason Snell
This is 17,.

1:34:00 - Leo Laporte
18 years ago. This is like the beginnings of YouTube.

1:34:05 - Jason Snell
He's a visionary. He's a visionary, he got those at the German Red Cross Does anybody know him?

1:34:09 - Leo Laporte
Have you ever had him on any of your shows? Jason knows him, Jason can we get?

1:34:13 - Mikah Sargent
him on.

1:34:13 - Jason Snell
I've been to the Panic offices and I mean I don't know he doesn't really do. I mean I don't know he doesn't really do. I mean they have their own podcast, panic does. But yeah, he's great. I mean it would be a great guest, he would be an amazing guest. John Ashley, his email address is on his blog.

1:34:26 - Leo Laporte
Maybe we can get Cable Sasser. He says I like meeting people, but not for more than 10 minutes. So we can book him for 10 minutes. Let's bring him in. Bring him in, say, we just wanted to say hi, we love you Well done.

1:34:39 - Jason Snell
We'll talk about music and Disney and Apple and the Playdate and yeah.

1:34:45 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, why not? I love the Playdate. I mean I used Transmit back in the day.

1:34:51 - Jason Snell
I still use Transmit. I still use Transmit.

1:34:53 - Leo Laporte
Yeah to this day Did he write it? Was he the coder originally for Panic stuff?

1:35:00 - Jason Snell
It's him and his business partner who founded panic did that together.

1:35:02 - Leo Laporte
That's really cool, steven, and cable him nice okay, let's take a break and when we come back we'll get your picks of the week on. How about that? Does that sound good, micah, you, you could you got last minute notice to be on the show. You don't have to have a pick of the week.

1:35:19 - Mikah Sargent
that that's good. I do not have one, but I'm excited to hear about all the other picks.

1:35:24 - Leo Laporte
I got a pick right now Our sponsor, IntouchCX. You were on the phone call with me when we talked to these guys. I am so stupid I didn't know CX stands for customer experience Customer experience. I had no idea and probably if this is your business, you know about IntouchCX. I mean, they are the kings of this.

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Talk to the people in IntouchCX. Whatever your company size and regardless of where your company is on its CX journey, intouch CX can help. Go to Sign up for a free, no-obligation consultation that'll create a tailored customer support strategy for AI and smart automation customized for your business. That's We thank InTouchCX for their support of MacBreak Weekly. I have kind of a silly little pick, but it's as we come closer to WWDC. This is really cool. Uh, basically, some guys who made an unofficial index of every WWDC talk session tech talks since the year 2000. Wow, so if I mean 3, mean 3430 sessions, 25 events. You think you can break it down to specific years you can search for for, for, uh, specific topics. What a great way of figuring out what apple talks about, and and and and, uh, and what they said, even going back all the way to the beginning, to 2020.

1:38:05 - Mikah Sargent
Does it link to the videos in the developer library? Let's see here.

1:38:09 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, oh, I don't have the uh, so some stuff is not available, right, and this is. I'm on Linux, so my video player will not play back. But yes, where there's a video available, they will give it to you. So it's a really great way to figure out and it's a historical document. I think it's very interesting. Anyway, it's at nonstricteu slash WWDC index, an unofficial index of sessions from WWDC. It's also available as JSON, so if you want to kind of chew it up and spit it out in your own way, you can do that as well. So I just thought I'd pass that along. Jason Snell pick of the week.

1:38:49 - Jason Snell
Yeah, that's a little bit of a weird one. It's Providence, which is a classic video game emulator. It's currently only available. Sort of you download the IPa and do secret things or you install alt store, but, um, with the fact that emulators are now allowed on the app store, it is, it is coming, and if you join their patreon, which is what I did, you can get test flight access. And that is how I can tell you. I was playing some of my favorite PlayStation 1 games via a PS4 controller on my Apple TV this week, because Providence is going to they're test flighting a version that works on the Apple TV and there are some other emulators that are also gearing up to on the Apple TV, and there are some other emulators that are also gearing up to be on Apple TV. It's really exciting because, assuming that Apple continues saying what they've been saying, which is, emulators are okay, now it actually makes the Apple TV a really fun box.

Because you can pair a modern controller or one of those awesome retro controllers from 8BitDo onto it and then run classic old games just off of. I mean sideloading is the games themselves is a little bit of a challenge. The way Providence does it, it actually runs a little web server and then you open it in your browser and you drag the files in and it just loads them in and it works like that and that's great. Or you could presumably use some cloud technology and it does some. It does like the state saves to the cloud, so it remembers where you were and therefore I was able to play one of my favorite turn of the century ridiculous video games NFL Blitz 2000.

1:40:31 - Leo Laporte
Oh yeah, that was a great game.

1:40:33 - Jason Snell
The goal is to give people concussions. You could never make it today.

1:40:37 - Leo Laporte
The teams weren't 11 either. It was like five people, right oh?

1:40:41 - Jason Snell
yeah, it was officially licensed and it was super violent and that you can never do it today, but god, I love that game so much. Anyway, all of that stuff, uh, classic retro emulation, uh, like on my ipad, great on my mac, yes, I can already do that on the apple tv. I'm like now, that is really because now it's now it's a retro console in my living room and that's where I like to be, so that's great where do you find the games?

1:41:05 - Mikah Sargent
or should you say the?

1:41:08 - Jason Snell
wrong. It emulates a bunch of older consoles. Like I said I was, I was trying to find old ps1 games because that was my first post atari 2600 console was actually the ps1. I had a big gap there and so I fell in love with console games again in that era. And then you just sort of drag them in and you know, apple's devices have supported modern controllers for a few years now, which is really great. And then it just, you know, it all just kind of works after that, which is pretty great. So provenance provenance, not providence provenance-emucom. You know Providence provenance-emucom. There are various versions and then if you join their Patreon, you get access to the test flights.

1:41:44 - Leo Laporte
It says ROM, library, metadata browser and editor. So I guess it would help you find it for Atari, from 2600 through the Lynx Bondi, nintendo, starting back at the Famicom Holy cow through the Game Boy Advance, the Pokemon Mini, snk, sega Now I would like some Sega Genesis games on my Apple TV Now. Did you do the $5? Is that enough? Patreon, how much do you have?

1:42:09 - Jason Snell
to kick in. Yeah, I did, whatever the base Patreon is, because I just wanted to try it out, but it's pretty fun. So I got to dig up some more games from days of yore and try them out, but I really like this as an idea. Um, and honestly I think it might benefit Apple more broadly. Like, if I go to the trouble of parking a PlayStation controller on my on my uh coffee table attached paired to my Apple TV, I'm also going to be more inclined to play Apple arcade games out there, right, like once, once I go down this path it makes the whole thing stickier from that perspective. So we'll see how it goes.

1:42:45 - Andy Ihnatko
Richard also came to the App Store and my thought is that I can. I've been talking about my blue sky wish is that it wouldn't be great if the Apple TV like ran like Mac apps like, even if it was just limited to the App Store or just ran iPad apps and I haven't set it up yet, but it's like I want to see if I can get the Mac emulator like running on an Apple TV and like run nicest writer, run Claris works. It would be. Yeah, that's I can't. I can't remember any other time when people have been so excited about gaming or excited really about gaming on the Apple TV. Now that you get emulate emulators that are available and I can't imagine what this is going to do to, like, the future of the product.

People, obviously, now that people are trying to put all of these game ROMs onto the system and run kind of things that Apple didn't really anticipate, they're running into problems like, okay, there's not enough storage space, or the Apple TV is like purging data that thinks it doesn't need but that actually screws up, like your game saves and your game ROMs.

So I wonder if, like, if we ever see a substantial update to Apple TV, we will see that they actually change the way that it handles storage and we'll add more storage just to be able to handle, like, without acknowledging it, without acknowledging retro gaming, to acknowledge that, to acknowledging it without acknowledging retro gaming, to acknowledge that, to, uh, be able to run emulators a little bit better than it does, super exciting. Yeah, I did the same thing you did, jason. It's like this is this, got this, got me to repair, like my xbox controller to the apple tv. When I done I, I had one just to see if it worked a few years ago and now it's actually. Oh, I can actually do stuff with it. That, yeah, yeah, impact my life positively.

1:44:21 - Leo Laporte
Fun times, interesting times, interesting times it's golden time for old video games. Uh, mr andy and I go.

1:44:30 - Andy Ihnatko
I like your pick of the week, I'm I'm gonna buy this one right now, yeah my pick is not so much a specific thing, so much the category that I did not realize existed until about a week ago. So you're walking around you, you got your camera and you have to. You have to store your SD cards and it's you can buy. Boxes are too big, but you're probably also going to need like an SD card reader so you can dump your photos, like during your trip. They are a bunch of people who make combination SD card storage sleeves that also have a built inin high-speed SD and mini SD card reader built in. So if you pull out a drawer that has like a half a dozen cards in it but it also has its own built-in USB-C connector to it a little pigtail, and so essentially it solves two problems at the same time. They're super compact. They keep all of your cards organized and safe. You can buy them for as much as a hundred bucks.

The one that I ordered a couple of days ago is just 40 bucks. It says the the pig tech create made high speed SD card reader USB 3.1. The sort of thing that makes you think that, okay, aliexpress, $8, $7. But yeah, so I'm not recommending any one specifically, but I cannot believe if it did not occur to me that someone would have made this because it is such an obvious solution to a real problem. Until then I have, I've got an old fashioned wallet that actually has a little coin wallet, coin purse like on one of the sides of it, and so I kind of slip like SD, individual SD cards and hopefully a little protective plastic holder in it. But this is so much better. It's going to go right into my laptop case. I'll probably buy a second one for my backpack just looking on timu to see if I can find exactly.

1:46:03 - Leo Laporte
I'm sure you're right, I'm sure it's three dollars, but you won't get it for four years. So you know, it's kind of one of those trade-off kind of a thing of my jobbers. Uh, really cool, I like this pgy tech create mate. Well, there's just one of them, honestly it's a great idea.

1:46:20 - Mikah Sargent
It makes me want someone to create a device where each of these little slots are actually a reader itself, so you could just access all of your cards at once, that'd be some massive storage. Wouldn't that be neat.

1:46:31 - Leo Laporte
I think we should build this.

1:46:34 - Andy Ihnatko
So you'd have to make it bigger to accommodate like an on-chip USB hub. You might have a problem with heat dissipation if you don't have the drawer pulled out. But yeah, I mean, especially if you want to go for broke and say I want half of this just to be like individual device storage. But I want these one, two, three, four SD cards to be mounted as a RAID, as a four-volume RAID.

1:46:57 - Mikah Sargent
For speed and for redundancy.

1:47:04 - Leo Laporte
We'll put it on kickstarter. This is too exactly. It'd be a weirdly slow raid, but it would work. It'd be good. I like it. Annie and otko wgbhs are calling. When are you gonna show up at the boston public library?

1:47:15 - Andy Ihnatko
uh, you can check out my most recent one at wgbhnewsorg. I'm not on again for another couple weeks. So week, so a week from Thursday at 1 PM again go to WGBHnewsorg to stream it live or later on.

1:47:26 - Leo Laporte
Nice, and how's anotcodecom coming? I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, I know no, no, no.

1:47:33 - Andy Ihnatko
No, no, no. This is why I have to Remember I talked habit habit tracker last week. One of the reasons for having is is that I don't want to officially launch it until I do not, for any reason, break my streak of posting, posting to the blog on the schedule that I want to do it because I have to make sure that is absolutely in that I've adjusted a weekly work schedule that has been unchanged for the past like five or six years. I don't cause. I don't want to say say hey, every monday you'll have something new, and say hi, uh, the monday thing is happening tuesday. Uh, assuming that I hear back from this guy who's told, who told me he'd get back to me on friday. So yeah, it's, it is coming soon. But wwdc does seem like a good time to launch it because it feels like something I'll have a lot to speak about and hearing from timu for seven dollars.64.

1:48:19 - Leo Laporte
Called it the 7-in-1 OTG card reader suitable for digital cameras storage. It even comes with a little SIM popper pin and a SIM card holder and reader. And everything in one Coffee maker. That's hysterical. That is hysterical. Oh, and look, look it could go usb a or c just flip it up and it turns and laura mipsom as well, and and and and laura mipsom yeah look, it'll do the laura mipsom reader, which is really handy it looks.

It also has a lightning reader for iphone plug. You know, maybe that laura mipsum is a giveaway that this might and a cigarette lighter yeah, isn't that wild, look at that. Oh, and it comes with a quadcopter. Cool, you got a very nice anyway. Thank you, andy micah sergeant will be back thursday for tech news weekly indeed yes, and what did you do this morning? With Rosemary on iOS.

1:49:19 - Mikah Sargent
Rosemary and I recorded two episodes as we do, and this morning we talked about our new iPads Pro, and then we also talked about upgrading your widget game on iPhone and iPad.

1:49:30 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, now I can have widgets on my lock screen on my iPad. It's fun. I really like that, jason Snell. Anyway, we'll catch you then and, of course, sunday for Ask the Tech.

1:49:41 - Mikah Sargent

1:49:43 - Leo Laporte
And we had a question. Guy had an iPad that he wanted to use as a source. He had a little HDMI dongle plugged into his TV but the iPad had to be next to the TV. He wanted to use it as a source for his TV, but then he needed to control it sitting back on his couch and we thought we still haven't tested it. We thought this might work. This is a little keyboard with a touch pad and a little rocker thing and anyway, we're going to test this and we'll give you the results on Ask the Tech Guys. It was only it was under $30.

1:50:13 - Andy Ihnatko
And I didn't even get it from T-Mobile, I got it the next day and he might be of the right age that it might be taken back to like the late, late, early two thousands, late 1990s of like text messaging as T-Mobile. Yeah, look at that.

1:50:27 - Leo Laporte
It's a sidekick without the phone. All right, jason Snell is at six colorscom. Six colorscom. Slash Jason to catch up on all of the things he talks about. Weren't you? Weren't here, uh, when we talked? Were you? When we talked about apple results? You did the.

1:50:44 - Jason Snell
you did the graphs, though, right yeah, that's right, a couple weeks ago. So the graphs are there.

If you want the colors, all the colors yeah, my review of the ipad last week is there. I'm working on some other stuff. I guess I gotta write about the ipad air at some point, which is weird because it's made out of sort of like parts from. We've already seen Frankenstein, so I may just quote myself from various other articles and make a Frankenstein review out of that. But I'm also. I got the new. I got the new Color Kobo and I'm going to review that too. So that'll be over at Six Colors E -readers. I like carving out a little weird niche, writing about e-readers, because I love them so much.

1:51:21 - Andy Ihnatko
You can try to keep Android out, but it's going to come in whether you want it or not, jason, yeah, I mean Kobo and Kindle are kind enough to hide that Android is back there, you can't see them.

1:51:33 - Jason Snell
I have also. You know, I've also reviewed some of those extremely weird things where Android is right there and those are very strange because they think they're phones and they're not. They're e-readers and it doesn't work quite right.

1:51:44 - Leo Laporte
So funny because I have, I have, the libra color, I love it.

1:51:47 - Jason Snell
And I did not know it was android, I had no idea I think so I think I think they're all based on some version of android subsystem because it's there like everything is everything is android under the hood, but they don't want you to see it right, like that's the difference. Whereas something like the books, uh, readers, which are very interesting, but they're just unabashedly just like oh, you want to do that, go to the, go to the play store and get it like okay, that's weird, but all right anyway. The kobo, because kobo I, I really like the kobo e-readers. I think that they're, uh, they're they, I think, be considered when you're looking at an e-reader, not just Kindle.

1:52:23 - Leo Laporte
There are other options that are also good and you can still buy Kindle books and use Calibre to import it in easily.

1:52:32 - Jason Snell
So that's what I did, I took all my Amazon.

1:52:35 - Leo Laporte
I had hundreds of Amazon books. I just ported them over to the Kobo.

1:52:42 - Jason Snell
There's ways to do it, it and it can be tricky and it's good if you have a kindle still a piece of kindle hardware it makes it a lot easier, because then you can basically download them from amazon and then sideload them onto the kobo and it works.

It works great. It's harder if you don't have kindle hardware to do that. But but, um, and the prices? I mean, all the books are available on both stores and the prices are the same and it's, you know, it's beyond that, it's not a big deal. Also, if you want to make the move, you can keep your old kindle around with your old books on it, and that will also work right, like I have so many kindles? What is?

1:53:11 - Mikah Sargent
the store for kobo. Is it just the kobo store?

1:53:14 - Jason Snell
yeah, it's kobo kobocom and then they've got deals with like walmart, some other like they're the official e-book reader for Walmartcom customers as well, but it's all. It's the whole store. I don't think I've ever found a book, not there, but on Kindle.

1:53:30 - Mikah Sargent
Kind of like Spotify, Apple Music. It doesn't really.

1:53:32 - Jason Snell
Yeah, pretty much. If it's been professionally published, it's everywhere.

1:53:36 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, we showed on Ask the Tech, as we showed how good its handwriting recognition was I was really surprised that, even with my crappy handwriting. The other thing I like about it and it makes me want to like it even more is that it supports libraries, so you can use Overdrive or Libby to borrow from your public library and read on the Kobo, which I think is a really cool thing.

1:53:55 - Jason Snell
You can do that, amazon. The way it works with Amazon is, yeah, you basically have to follow a link that takes you to your amazon account and you have to log in and then you can send it and it will get there. But the company that owns kobo also used to own overdrive, which is the library system thing, and so it's integrated. You can literally browse your library from the e-reader, check out a book from the e-reader and then return it all without going to your phone, although, although I will admit, most of the time I use Libby on the, which has been a pick of mine before, because that iPhone app is just so good that that's where I do most of my library.

1:54:28 - Leo Laporte
Well, it does kind of beg the question. Wouldn't you be just as happy with a iPad mini using the Kobo or Amazon? I think I've got an article.

1:54:37 - Jason Snell
I think I've got an article on six colors for that. Amazon, I think I've got an article. I think I've got an article on six colors for that. Part of what I like about the e, the e-ink readers, is that they are mono right, you know, mono useful they're, they're, they're they're unitaskers. They don't put up push notifications and they don't have other apps and like. At the end of the day, I close my ipad, I turn on the kobo and I read and I don't ever go back to the internet.

1:54:57 - Leo Laporte
yeah, no it it's very smart, actually, that's a very good point. I was kicked out of my house for eight hours yesterday because the exterminators were there and they said no humans allowed. So I took my Kobo and I wandered and read and it was great. It was actually really great. Didn't need the internet or anything. Good, we'll look forward to that Any plug.

1:55:22 - Jason Snell
You want to give for a podcast coming up or I don't know. I mean upgrade on Mondays with Mike Hurley. Mike was back this week. He avoided all the iPad discourse but got a new iPad and got to talk about it without any of the smart, any of the hand wringing, and we have fun. And there's a YouTube version if people want to see us sitting in our chairs.

1:55:39 - Leo Laporte
The title I do not rock anything. Obviously somebody asked me.

1:55:43 - Jason Snell
Somebody asked me about like do I do I rock the 13 inch or the 11 inch ipad or something and I'm like okay, I don't rock anything, I just use things, that's I haven't rocked since 1982.

1:55:57 - Leo Laporte
Uh, thank you, Jason Snell. Great, great to see you. Thank you, Andy Ihnatko

Great to see you and Mikah, so great to have you on. I appreciate your jumping in at the last minute to fill in for Alex Lindsay. I won't say he'll be back next week. We hope he will. We think he might. If not, Mikah will be One or the other for sure. We thank you for joining us. A special thanks to our Club Twit members who make this show possible with their $7 a month donation. Thank you. And, of course, if you're not a member, join We really, really appreciate it.

You can watch us do the show live on Tuesdays 11 am to 2 pm Eastern, I'm sorry, 11 am to 2 pm Pacific, that's 2 to 5 pm Eastern, and the link is for the show. Just be aware the show goes live the minute we start the show and ends the minute we end the show. If you want to see in between you, join the club. You can see that in the Discord After the fact, on-demand versions of the show, ad-supported, supported or available at There's also a youtube uh video version dedicated to MacBreak Weekly. If you want even more ads, uh, and finally, the best way to do it, of course, subscribe in your favorite podcast player, audio or video. That way, you'll have it whenever you want it. Uh, just look for MacBreak Weekly. Thank you all for being here. Security now is next. Now is my sad duty to tell you it's time to get back to work because break time is over. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye, bye-bye, bye-bye.

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