MacBreak Weekly 907 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

0:00:00 - Leo Laporte
Are you there, martha? Are you there? It's time for MacBreak Weekly. Guess what we're gonna be talking about. It's Vision Pro time. Ray Maxwell tunes in from Canada. There are some caveats. Jason Snell's got his. He'll leap across the Uncanny Valley to look at his six color charts of Apple's quarterly results. So is Alex Lindsay. He's got some really interesting tools to use with the Vision Pro. And then there's poor old Andy Inako, who doesn't have anything at all, but he's got some great ideas. Macbreak Weekly coming up next. This is MacBreak Weekly, episode 907, recording Tuesday, february 6th 2024. I left my settings app in the garage.

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I'm a lifetime member, but if you're not yet, here's a special limited time deal for you. Right now get 50% off a one time payment for a lifetime Babbel subscription. 50% off, but only for our listeners. Babbelcom slash MacBreak 50% off your lifetime subscription. I already had one. I wish I'd known about this. At. Babbelcom slash MacBreak Spelled Babbelcom slash MacBreak. Rules and restrictions apply. It's time for MacBreak Weekly to show. We cover the latest news from Apple and there there seems to be something going on the Apple world. We brought in the heavy hitters here Alex Lindsey from OfficeHours Global. He has a vision pro, but he's not wearing it. You're going to wear it later. What?

0:02:40 - Alex Lindsay
are you going to do? I put it on like if we talk about something and we want to look at something, I'll pop it on. I felt like there was enough, there was enough, there's enough.

0:02:46 - Leo Laporte
VP in here to Andy and Ako. He has no vision pro. He's frankly lucky to have anything.

0:02:55 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, well, I did. I did decide that, like I don't want to be the only person who you can't actually make eye contact with, so I do have these standing by, in case there's a segment which everybody is wearing vision pro, except for me, or actually, or actually, maybe keep them off, because I'd be the only person that, like, people are relating to as the. I want to have a beer with this guy because, yeah, yeah, hi everybody.

0:03:16 - Leo Laporte
I'm wearing I'm wearing my best I could do at the moment A short notice and notice no eye contact. I'm in my own little googly eye world. Jason Snell is here in his vision pro and we're seeing his avatar. Hi, jason, yeah.

0:03:33 - Jason Snell
Well, you know, somebody had to do it, so I guess it would be me.

0:03:36 - Leo Laporte
Just say good morning and war eagle, just because you look a little like.

0:03:41 - Jason Snell
Tim Cook, I'm not going to do that.

0:03:42 - Leo Laporte
Okay.

0:03:44 - Jason Snell
I don't think I actually look at all like Tim Cook. I can't. I can't put up my scrawny arms. I can only give you my scrawny, scrawny hands.

0:03:53 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, yeah. So Jason's got it. And then we thought we'd bring in somebody who has a lot of experience with VR headsets in general. He's even flown drones through a first person VR, a long time host on this show, on this network of Maxwell's house, and a color scientist in his own right, in a complete geek. Ray Maxwell, hello Ray.

Hi, hello, hello panel, Big panel he's wearing. He's. What you're going to see on airplanes in the future is a row after row of people wearing vision pro headsets. Well, let me start with you, Jason, since you're actually an avatar, I'm probably aren't going to last too long?

0:04:38 - Jason Snell
I don't think so. I don't think so. One segment only. Unless I'm visiting my mom, in which case this may be what you get from now on, and when I'm traveling, I don't know.

0:04:48 - Andy Ihnatko
You can't catch my good microphone to it. So you sound fine. Also, like Dr Strange, it's hard to maintain your presence, corporal presence, on this mortal plane. So you could fade out at any moment. Yeah, he's good.

0:05:00 - Jason Snell
One thing you don't know about this. That's actually interesting, is it? It? The camera angle is based on where the window is the zoom window. So if, if I move the window, it's like there's a like a screenshot going on, which is pretty wild, although the background doesn't move. So, no zoom, you gotta, you gotta work on that one. But you know it is. It is everything that I expected it to be, which is uncanny and yet also kind of amazing that with a quick capture, you're a character in a 3D like a grand theft auto or something like that. The tech is pretty amazing, but at the same time, it's also a little weird. When you're in a face time with somebody else who's wearing one of these things, the context is actually, it all kind of starts to feel a little bit better because you hear their voice and you're in the context of it. But I mean, there's no doubt I would not call my mom with my digital persona. That would be weird.

0:05:55 - Leo Laporte
There's a couple of things. You look a little bit like Bobby Hill from King of the Hill. You look a little bit like Tim Cook. You look like a thumb with your face painted on it. That's part of the problem, yeah.

0:06:04 - Jason Snell
Yeah, there's definitely a depth problem where I've been saying it's like a brick, like there are ears back there, sort of. But really we, you know it's a, it's a face shape with your, with your face put on the front of it.

0:06:18 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, also, hair is a problem. When you see people who have short hair, they're kind of in there and that's okay. But like I, just, dean, had her like hair down and it's like no, there's just sort of a charcoal smudge that doesn't really rotate correctly. And also I've heard from a couple of people who say, had I, I was so excited to get this working, I didn't bother to shave, I didn't bother to fix my hair and now my avatar is stuck looking like I've just been awake all night waiting for the sign from my package.

0:06:43 - Leo Laporte
You can change, you can do a new avatar. Actually you like this.

0:06:46 - Jason Snell
Yeah, it's not stuck. In fact, that's the that's. I think one of the brilliant things about this is, if you're somebody who whether it's your haircut or getting or primping or putting on makeup or whatever you do your capture then and then that's your face until you want to recapture it. You can save more than one, but that gives you the ability to sort of like be locked in as whoever you want to be, and then and then don't take a shower before you're on a podcast.

0:07:12 - Leo Laporte
I. I was reading earlier before the show, and I'll I'll refer back to it to a ZJ Kingsley on Reddit who said Apple has mismarketed the Vision Pro and reviewers have have, as a result, mistakenly focused, for instance, on this avatar thing. They said that's. He said this is not what it's all about and I think maybe some people who have it agree he, he says the. You know the killer use for him is lying in bed in a VR environment looking at the stars and crystal clear clarity, a small window open, talking to a friend via messages and just beyond that, mounted in the sky, a 100 foot wide screen which had the social network running in simply the clearest quality I've ever seen outside of 1570 IMAX. You know, I think everybody who has this might have a different killer app, but what is your experience of watching movies? Is it crystal clear? Does it? Does it? Oh yeah.

0:08:14 - Alex Lindsay
It is. Yeah, it's really clear. It's it's. Yeah, it was kind of made for a power. Yeah, yeah it is. And we lost power on Sunday and of course I have a UPS for my router, so I still had internet. I just didn't have any lights and it's a white. My retreat was to sit on the couch and put Superman man of steel up and just watch. You know, watch it until the power came back. How big did you make it? It probably would have been the equivalent of about 150 inches, or maybe 200 inches.

0:08:42 - Leo Laporte
Like a theater, then like seeing it.

0:08:44 - Alex Lindsay
It's like a theater, it's like it's 100% Like. I, like I would worry if I was a theater looking at this, because the and I also would say that I would over the weekend I got to the point where if I want to hang out with my family which you know, I we watch a bunch of shows together, and so that's still, that's still, but you know, that's the only time we really all sit down around a TV is when we want to watch a show together and we kind of you know that's kind of an evening thing to do. You know, obviously I'm going to still do that with them, but if I was, I don't think I would ever again sit down to watch once YouTube TV, which isn't out yet for the for the, for the YouTube says it's on their roadmap, by the way, which is YouTube, TV is not.

0:09:23 - Leo Laporte
Yeah.

0:09:24 - Alex Lindsay
Oh, not YouTube TV. Youtube is, yeah, it asks you to put in a number, but there's no like where do I find that number? It says your device will share this number and I'm like I don't know so. So it's not there yet, but as soon as YouTube TV comes on, I don't. I don't see myself ever sitting in front of my TV again to just watch a show, unless I was eating, like if I was eating I don't think I eat with a headset on, but if I was like. But I think that I very quickly was like. This is a much better experience. I do notice that there's a lot of. There's a lot of things that are different on the headset for viewing things, though One one is that you're just constantly reminded that 24 is really framey and because everything else around it is not, it actually is more apparent that the frame-ness of 24p is probably this is. These headsets maybe may undermine that.

0:10:10 - Leo Laporte
You want a higher frame rate if you're watching on these headsets.

0:10:13 - Alex Lindsay
The problem is you have an environment right behind it that's moving. So this is. It took me a little while to figure out why it was so much more apparent on the headset than it is on the. When I watch a TV, the wall doesn't move right behind me when I watch and the wall behind it, the environment behind it, is working at 90 frames a second or 92 frames a second or whatever. So the background is at a high frame rate and because of that, there's something about it that you notice really quickly because there's not a wall there that the frame rate is low and so the and. So I think that it became much more apparent to me than I had before.

0:10:46 - Leo Laporte
It's. It doesn't match your experience, Although, honestly, when you're watching a 24p movie anywhere in real world, you're having a lot of you're having a higher frame rate in the real world, don't you?

0:10:57 - Alex Lindsay
Right, but you have, but you do, but you have a frame, but you you have a frozen wall and there are some theaters, like IMAX and and IMAX and a couple other ones have, and Apple have their own theaters. The problem with the theaters, ironically, is that the screen in the virtual theater is too small, like it's not as big. Oh, you can't make it as big, because it says, oh, this is the frame, I'm going to put it in, right, and I couldn't get it to go bigger. Like it locks into the frame that it Disney.

0:11:20 - Jason Snell
Go ahead. Yeah, Disney lets you get in the sit in the front row if you choose the Disney plus theater, but that's it.

0:11:28 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah and the. I haven't been in Disney yet because of course Disney required a login and I don't know what it is and I was like I'll get around to it eventually, and so you don't have a, you don't have bit warden or one password in there.

0:11:38 - Jason Snell
Well, here here's the yeah. One password for the iPad can be installed on it and it will auto fill your passwords with optic ID.

It's actually kind of remarkable it is. This device is an iPad, right, it's like a 3d iPad, but the good news is, if your apps work on the iPad, then you can get them. If they are on the vision pro, you can put them in there and they all interact and they all work. And and I agree with Alex, I was watching, I was using a vision OS exclusive app called Juno, which is a YouTube client because YouTube isn't there yet, and it is the quality of a standard 2d image. When you're not confused by like oh, it's 3d or whatever, it's really good. It's remarkably good as just a video viewer.

0:12:20 - Leo Laporte
Here's one of our our discorders, visionmad, who's watching right now while eating his cereal. But honestly, how is that different than having a TV in your kitchen? I don't.

0:12:30 - Alex Lindsay
Except when you walk around and you can move one whole time.

0:12:32 - Leo Laporte
Oh yeah, you move and the TV follows you. You know like it's the, the well.

0:12:37 - Alex Lindsay
And the other thing is you constantly are moving the wind. I found myself constantly moving windows, so I'm constantly oh, I want to put this over here, I want to put this over here, I want to put this over here. And like I was watching that, I had a client that was texting me on Sunday while I was watching the movie and I just simply put my messages up above the screen, and so if I saw them change, I looked up and I, and as I said, oh, I want to say something, the movie went down, got quieter, and I said what I needed to say in the text, and then I went back to what I was doing, and so it was, and so I just didn't really think much, much of it. It was totally in that environment. That's natural, yeah.

0:13:05 - Leo Laporte
That's one thing Apple's very good at is kind of making those affordances feel natural, even if you're in a spatial computing environment that you've never experienced before.

0:13:15 - Alex Lindsay
I will admit that I was. I think the thing that frightened me the most about the headset was actually that thing, which was that there was a moment last night and I was probably 10 or 12 or 15 hours into the into using the headset and and I'm not in one day just over the, since Friday morning, I had been in it and I suddenly was watching YouTube and there was some point where I looked down and I realized, oh, I'm in the headset. Oh, wow, like I was. I was just watching YouTube and just kind of like, because I have a lot of screens anyway, so it doesn't show like I have eight screens around me, so a lot of screens doesn't really show up like like I'm somewhere. It's not so different from your normal life.

0:13:52 - Leo Laporte
It's not so different from my normal life.

0:13:55 - Alex Lindsay
But I suddenly realized, oh, I'm in the, I'm in the headset. And there was some point yesterday afternoon where I looked at something. And I looked at it and I found myself tapping and I was like, oh no, I'm not in the headset. And so so like I'm like, it was like I've heard people say that yeah. That you just like.

0:14:08 - Leo Laporte
With the iPad you get used to this pinching and zooming and then you start using a Mac and I tap my screen all the time.

0:14:12 - Alex Lindsay
I tap my laptop screen all the time, like I was tap, tap, tap, like why isn't this working?

0:14:15 - Leo Laporte
Ray Ray, what are you? My lower brain was getting caught. What's your killer app so far, Ray Maxwell?

0:14:21 - Ray Maxwell
Well, I have bad news. Uh-oh, you really should start with my experience of buying it from Canada.

0:14:30 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, so this is the first part is. I didn't even know you could use it in Canada.

0:14:35 - Ray Maxwell
Well, you can and then you cannot. You can't buy anything Exactly you could. Okay, on the January 19th at five am in the morning, I signed on and no sweat. Oh, there's Ray Maxwell. Yes, we'll take your $3,500 plus accessories, $4,800 with taxes US when I'm all done, and no sweat. Yeah, place and order. And then I, uh, I went down to the Alderwood Mall Apple store in Linwood, washington, walked in.

0:15:12 - Leo Laporte
You're in the you're buying in the US then. So you went over the border, yeah.

0:15:15 - Ray Maxwell
Yeah, well, here's the thing Apple has to understand that 90% of the population of Canada lives within 200 miles of border Right. It's not unusual, we, we, we cross border shop all the time, right, okay, and they really haven't allowed for that. But anyway, I go in. Oh yeah, we have your order ready for you. They do the demo. I had a not a good experience there. The poor girl I think she was an extra brought in because there's so many people in the store and, by the way, they were going out like hotcakes the VIPs. At any rate, it took her 20 minutes to get the demo went to work and, by the way, when they fit, when they, when they, when they fit you out, they do not fit your unit to you. They fit the demo unit to you and check all the settings and everything, cause the demo's on that unit, yeah, yeah. And then they bring you in sealed cartons, your unit. That makes sense. Yeah, you exit with sealed cartons.

Now I said to the manager of the store very nice fellow, very helpful. I said now I have a Canadian Apple ID. What's the when I get back to Canada and sign on? How's everything going to work? Oh, no sweat. Now I'm going to switch to my view here. This is my view, and I'm going to take us to Haka or whatever. That is, yeah, right. And now I get home, and here's my view, and oh, I'm all excited. I can oh, my microphone's too close to me now. Anyway, it, it, it, it, I can open up Safari. And here's Safari, and I can bring in 3d models, and, oh, it's all exciting. And then the message from hell.

0:17:19 - Andy Ihnatko
Oh, what does it say Not?

0:17:21 - Ray Maxwell
available Not not available.

0:17:23 - Leo Laporte
The app store isn't available in your country. Oh you can't even get into the app store at all. Oh no, oh, that's frustrating. So you couldn't add apps to this at all. How are? How are we talking to you right now? Oh, I get it. You're on zoom on your computer and and you're air playing the view, or you have another device that you're putting the view in?

0:17:45 - Ray Maxwell
Yes, Switching over to. I have coupled, I have coupled my VP to my iPad pro and it is plugged in by HDMI to my ATEM mini. I see it, yeah.

0:17:57 - Leo Laporte
So what can you do?

0:18:00 - Ray Maxwell
Can you watch a movie? Yes, all the movies I bought here in Canada I can watch. Okay, in 4k.

0:18:10 - Leo Laporte
I don't say it's available in Canada. So you're? You're an example of an early adopter who was willing to take the chance, but they aren't selling it in Canada. No Okay, by the way, Jason Snell had to give up. He's switching over, he's he couldn't take it. That's the face I love. So let's see 16 minutes in. And why? Why are we not seeing him? I see him in the.

I see him in the. We got to. Oh, we got to reroute. Yeah, Okay, we're just going to reroute it, and now we want to hear him too, oh, you don't look like Tim Cook anymore. Good morning.

0:18:47 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah.

0:18:47 - Leo Laporte
Those are those hands, you don't look like. Bobby anymore. So what was?

0:18:53 - Jason Snell
it? What was it wearing on you? The trick is to use an ID from from the U? S and the ones who are gray market importing these things most of them, the people I know they all have a, even if it's not their primary. They have a U S Apple ID that they can use to get access to the store and all those things.

0:19:10 - Ray Maxwell
Right Now. The only trouble with that, jason, is I. I am setting up a U S ID so I can get to that. The only trouble with it is I. I lose my eco, my Apple ecosystem. I can't copy and paste, yeah, cause everything's in your own, all my other devices.

0:19:26 - Jason Snell
That's why you're not supposed to do this. You're supposed to wait until it's for sale in Canada later this year. Honestly.

0:19:31 - Andy Ihnatko
Ray, you will be able to use this in a few months, I'm sure. It still has a wonderful plan for your life. Why don't you give yourself? To it willingly right Exactly. It's kind of productive.

0:19:41 - Ray Maxwell
By the way, have any of you looked at this 3d model of the VP on safari it? The detail is just incredible. I don't know how well it's coming through, but I'm seeing every. I'm seeing every thread in the fabric.

0:19:59 - Alex Lindsay
I think that one of the things we're going to see is we see a lot of 3d that's in there and a lot of it doesn't look good. But one thing that I will say is that if you look at some of the things that are actually doing the full resolution of the, of the, of it's, it's not the headset that can't do the high quality 3d, it's the fact that the developers, or whoever is building it, she didn't go through that much trouble. It's. It's a lot of trouble, like what Apple did for that one is a lot of trouble to get to that level of quality and people haven't spent that time yet. They will.

0:20:27 - Leo Laporte
They will know that there'll be people looking at it in that kind of quality and I should, by the way, just so we don't besmirch the vision pro. Jason, it wasn't the vision pro that we were tiring of, it was just that zoom was kind of.

0:20:41 - Jason Snell
I think I think the zoom app on vision OS is it's kind of iffy. I had some sound problems, I had some lag problems, I was having some frame skips where you guys would pause and then jump and I'd lose some of it. And it is also on a wifi connection. When I use a wired connection, when we're doing the shows. There's a lot going on there. It is a 1.0 OS with a 1.0 app on it.

0:21:04 - Leo Laporte
We had somebody there somebody call as the tech guys on Sunday wearing his and the lag was like five or six seconds was really laggy. So that's, yeah, they'll fix that and there are a lot of interesting.

0:21:17 - Andy Ihnatko
I thought there were a lot of interesting like choices that Apple made. Like, on the one hand, it's cool. That's like when you're using your persona wherever you're Jason, you mentioned this earlier, though wherever you're looking is where. Wherever you're looking relative to the window that owns the camera, like some of the zoom window, that's where it puts your avatar looking. On the other hand, is there a setting so you can simply say look, I just want to make it look as though I'm always looking directly at the camera.

0:21:43 - Alex Lindsay
No, no, what I noticed was it was I was talking to somebody who was like so, are you doing something else? Because you could see that I was like no, some windows around to talk to them. I'm looking over here and you do get to see that that person is not looking straight at the camera all the time. It's not like turning it off. It was definitely clear.

0:22:00 - Jason Snell
Also, nothing says 1.0 operating system, like is there a setting to take it from the default to do something else? And going no, no, no, they're not at the part where there are settings, for I mean there's, like iOS settings, but that's when I mean, we've all been there using a 1.0 operating system. There's this just like flavor, this smell of it, which is just like it's new cars smell. But also you get that moment where you get to the edge and you're like, oh, are there options? And the answer is nope. There's a question mark, there's a cloud with a. You know it's a mystery about what that option will eventually be, but it's a 1.0. I get it. I get it.

0:22:38 - Alex Lindsay
Occasionally you get into apps and you're like how do I get out of here? And like I don't know.

0:22:43 - Jason Snell
I'm like and.

0:22:43 - Alex Lindsay
I did learn how to force quiz, which is the whole book, and the funny thing is is that I was like it was so. So the? But you know, and it's not so much Apple, these are app developers who just aren't putting the hooks where we want them, you know. So they're, they're building this thing. So you get into their app and then there's, and you can tap on it and gather, but then you're like, how do I actually turn that off? Cause it? What'll happen is you'll click on it, the apps will come forward and you realize that other app that you left to go into the apps, it's still out there. It's like it's still opened over there, like doing its thing. And so you, you kind of get used to that, the the app store. By the way, if you, if you download it and you have any trouble downloading apps, the update fixes it. So there was an issue where that I was having where, on the 1.0, I couldn't. I just got to a point where it would just look like it was trying to download apps and I just went to her app and then, when I did the ran the update to 1.1 or whatever it. It fixed it, but there was a point where I couldn't download anything yesterday to make that happen. So but, but you see, again some rough edges, but again I I.

What I was surprised at was how long, like I have most of the headsets and I've been using some version of a headset on and off for 30, 25 years, no-transcript. I was surprised at how long my sessions were. Like I was losing track of time, you know, like I was there and I was like doing things and mostly, obviously it's new. So I'm like watching some movies and I'm trying some 3D things out, I'm downloading apps and I'm opening things up and playing with them and everything else. But it was very comfortable to be there, for I mean, I don't think I did any session that was less than like 90 minutes. I mean I put them on every once in a while to set something up, but it was like I was there for a long time and I didn't think about the time while I was there. That was the interesting thing.

0:24:30 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I agree. One of my big open questions with this thing was can you wear it for any amount of time? And I had two different experiences. In June last year, they put a weird thing that is not available as a band, where it was like the soft part but also the head strap, and it hurt my forehead the whole time. And then a couple of weeks ago I did a half an hour and they just did the dual band and it felt just fine. And so the mystery was like what is this gonna be like? And the answer was I got it.

It comes with the sole loop attached. I put it on my face. I got that exact same headache right in my forehead that I got last June. I detached it, I put on the dual loop and I've worn it for as much as six or seven hours in a day. I'm writing my review. Guys, I have to do this and it was fine and everybody's head is different, but I can say that it's least conceivable that you could wear this for an extended session and it would be fine.

0:25:25 - Alex Lindsay
And I definitely feel like you get used to where to put it and how to put it on and how to pull the strap. I'm using the two strap. I found those single strap to be really not useful and so I do feel like with the MetaQuests, I feel like that hook in the front that goes front to back would definitely improve my experience. I've been thinking about like printing a little thing to grab onto it and just let it pull back, because I feel the weight on my cheeks.

0:25:50 - Leo Laporte
All the weight is in that device on your face.

0:25:53 - Alex Lindsay
I don't feel like, but again, as weight on my head. It doesn't bother me as a you know, wear the weight, how the weight is unbalanced, you know, cantilevered, has, you know, and it doesn't bother me, although I will say that, like when I try to, it's what I noticed is when I'm speaking into messages because I do that a lot when I'm in there I'm like, oh, I don't try to type and so I just look up and hit the thing and say it. I can feel it bouncing, you know, like pressing against my cheeks.

0:26:18 - Leo Laporte
Ray, I know you're wearing it to bareback. Do you not like to do a loop, or you don't need?

0:26:24 - Ray Maxwell
it. You know what I have. I've been wearing this thing for hours yesterday and the day before.

0:26:30 - Leo Laporte
It looks very natural on you, I should say yeah, it is quite comfortable.

0:26:36 - Ray Maxwell
I haven't had a problem with it. I was going to try out the dual strap and I just there's a necessity, yeah. Now let me tell you a few of my other impressions of this thing. Number one the things that are missing. I'll give you my gripes and then I'll tell you all my good things. I tried to load a ProRes file in. Now, this thing isn't really made for editing or the high end uncompressed stuff, but it wouldn't go in. Now, I don't know, it was just that one time, but it doesn't like pro formats as I see it. And the other thing is I thought they'd learned their lesson with the iPhone 14 and 15 Pro, that they put USB-C in a high speed IO to load large files. And the good news is I have found out that the developers do indeed have a dongle that will connect into this battery connection and give you USB-C in and out, and it sells for only $299. Oh my God.

0:27:48 - Alex Lindsay
And that's for testing. I mean, it's just there to tie it together and I will say that I did find that it's pretty chunky. If you take a 550 meg USDZ file and try to work it in a round, you give it a couple you know 50 million polygons and it's like it's a little, it's you know. So we were trying to push the outer edge of that.

0:28:09 - Ray Maxwell
Now the app that I'm dying to get my hands on as soon as I could reach the app store. And we're all talking. Everybody's calling Apple support and saying come on, turn on the app store to Canada, you know, be nice Any rate. The app I'm waiting for is the for-flight company, who makes a lot of aviation software, has a 3D app that lets you look at a given airport and see all the air traffic in 3D going in and out of the airport.

0:28:38 - Leo Laporte
That'd be cool. That's really cool. That's called the.

0:28:41 - Alex Lindsay
Voyager app. You just said it, I downloaded it. You tend to set it over in one corner, like a little below you, because you can decide where you're gonna set it and it definitely makes a difference because of where you see the planes. But you kind of set it over kind of like about chest high somewhere over to the side, and it's just nice because you'll be working here, like I wonder what's landing in San Francisco.

0:29:00 - Home Theater Geeks
You'll see all these planes. It's got terrain. It's really good.

0:29:04 - Leo Laporte
I should mention, though it's made by Boeing, so I mean you might want to check the bolts on that before yeah exactly the engines or the sensors the sensors on the front.

0:29:11 - Alex Lindsay
Check the sensors.

0:29:14 - Andy Ihnatko
Don't set it to goose mode, it'll be very, very intense I promise you.

0:29:18 - Ray Maxwell
The other thing I found out is NordVPN does not make an app for the Vision Pro yet, because I wanted to try VPN and put myself down in the US.

0:29:28 - Leo Laporte
Oh, that would be, a solution.

0:29:30 - Alex Lindsay
You could do it at the router level. I mean you could do it.

0:29:33 - Leo Laporte
Yes, right, exactly there you go, just pretend you're in the US.

0:29:39 - Ray Maxwell
Let me give you my overall impression. My overall impression is a lot of people have not. I mean, if you read the technical spec on the Apple site and you only take even the marketing stuff and set your expectations to the literal meaning of everything, I'm not disappointed at all. I'm just wowed by the tech. I'm very much wowed by the resolution and the 3D models and the whole thing. But people have set their own personal expectations way high and are dreaming about things that nobody's promising and I think they're disappointed there.

0:30:27 - Alex Lindsay
And there's not. There's 600 apps that were built for it. There's whatever a million apps that you could theoretically run on it. There's about eight that are worth looking at right now. So any part of the thing is you go through them and you go like I've now people, you can put it into guest mode and hand it to somebody and say, okay, and they have to, you know, calibrate their eyes and show their hands and that type of thing. And then you go okay, go to the dinosaur, like you take them to the dinosaur demo. That's a good demo. And then go to Jigspace and see Jigspace, then watch a movie and then you're done Like you see that I can show you the. If I show you those three things, you get a sense of what the thing can do. The other stuff gets too hard to explain to someone. The MOOG app is unbelievable, you know, but that's a whole nother. So there's a lot of you know. There's definitely apps that are coming out, but there's probably eight or 10 that are like standouts.

The rest of them are like oh, this is a good idea. They're on their way, they're thinking about it.

0:31:21 - Ray Maxwell
I'm looking forward to virtual music apps. There's gotta be a visual thermo, the MOOG. Oh, it is Okay.

0:31:30 - Alex Lindsay
The MOOG. So there's spatial music, there's one called Spatial Music and then there's one called Right. I knew that would happen. So spatial music is like a theremin, like you can sit there and play with it and kind of move around. And then there's the MOOG app. Is crazy, it's you can.

There's a bunch of different instruments and different things that you can play, and the crazy thing is is that you're playing notes with your eyes and tapping when you want it to happen, and it's a really I found it to be really crazy experience because they're trying to play, Cause you can't. You have to look at exactly what you want to play next. And then there's they've they started to kind of experiment with other tools and everything else, and so those are the two that are kind of I felt like gave you a sense of what is coming. You know, like it's not like that we're going to have different kinds of ways of interacting with music, interacting with data, those types of things. But it's not there yet, but it's. Those two are the probably the ones that kind of show you that.

0:32:20 - Ray Maxwell
And, of course, the thing I'm really looking forward to is a I'm hoping X-Plane. X-plane, I think, already works with some VR headsets, but I want to see it on this thing Flight simulator, yeah I can't wait.

0:32:33 - Alex Lindsay
I think we were talking about this in office hours. I think that one of the things that is going to happen is you have, like that, logitech, you know your controllers, and I think what's going to happen is they're going to give you two little trackers that you just set on the on the top part of your control deck or whatever, and it will just snap the fuselage in, like. It'll just go like I know where you are and I'm just going to snap that in, so the rest of the fuselage looks like it's going around your, so you can look down. This is the where the AR stuff comes. You can look down and grab onto your the physical handles and see them. You're not like in a virtual world, you're just looking at them. But when you look up you get, you know, sky.

0:33:06 - Leo Laporte
How about 360 video? I have a bunch of stuff I shot in Rome on the Insta 360. Could I? Is there any way to look at that in the Vision Pro?

0:33:16 - Jason Snell
I can do it in Quest three obviously, but you need an app and there are some apps. There's one app that is in the app store. I'm not going to name it because it doesn't really work yet, but I have no doubt that there will be apps to support all of those formats.

Apple doesn't seem to be supporting it, which I'm actually a little disappointed by, because they made that statement to somebody saying, oh, it doesn't meet our standards, blah, blah, blah. But the truth is, if you shoot with one of these 360 cameras or 180 cameras, it's not going to be 3D, but it still could look really good, I think it'd be great I'd be able to look around and see what I you know, see everything I yeah.

The Panoramas, which are also 2D Panoramas, are spectacular. They look better than Panoramas. I understand now why they put that feature in there. They look so good.

0:34:04 - Leo Laporte
These are nerdy and our discord is saying I took a pano from my hotel balcony in Barcelona a few weeks ago and I did not disappoint when I opened it in the Vision Pro super detailed, excellent unwrapping of the geometry to make it look realistic.

0:34:17 - Ray Maxwell
Yes, I have a pano of my living room. I have a. Now I have a. What I am impressed with is I can take my iPhone 15 Pro Max and I shot a little 3D video while the gal was demoing the thing to me and playing that back. The resolution and the surround sound of being at the Apple store was incredible.

0:34:43 - Alex Lindsay
I will say that. So I benefited from the fact that I didn't realize I had taken so many, but I evidently, since whatever I knew that you had, I knew that you had, I had. I have 600 panos from all over the world, of like in the White House and in weird places.

0:35:00 - Leo Laporte
They're always a little dissatisfying on the phone itself. On the 2D, yeah, it is.

0:35:05 - Alex Lindsay
But this was. I finally paid off.

0:35:07 - Leo Laporte
Nice.

0:35:08 - Alex Lindsay
All those panos, you know, like I was cause I've never like I've taken them and I almost never look at them again. Like I and I take them all the time but I never go back and look at them and I was like, oh, this was amazing.

0:35:17 - Leo Laporte
How does this like that I?

0:35:17 - Alex Lindsay
did that for the last decade.

0:35:18 - Leo Laporte
How does the spatial video you shoot on the iPhone compared to spatial video you shoot on the Vision Pro Cause we've been shooting spatial video.

0:35:27 - Ray Maxwell
I think the iPhone is better.

0:35:28 - Leo Laporte
You think it's better? It's not.

0:35:32 - Ray Maxwell
You really think so?

0:35:33 - Jason Snell
Yeah, the iPhone video is lower quality, smaller. It's like a smaller aspect ratio because they're cropping from one to the other. The one on the Vision Pro, the spatial video, is superior.

0:35:45 - Leo Laporte
And a better interocular distance. Right, it's a more, it's a wider.

0:35:48 - Jason Snell
Exactly right. So everything is more wider, like your eyes and not like a little camera.

0:35:53 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, I found that the quality. I mean again, yeah, I shot some with the, with the phone and I just I haven't shot any with the headset yet, but I shot some with the phone and I was like I don't know if I'll do like I shot Right. And one of the things I did is I shot the same footage with the phone with and without stereo. And if you told me which one would you rather watch, I'd rather watch the higher resolution version that was not stereo than the lower resolution that was stereo. And you know, stereo even in the movies that they have, it has. I thought, I will admit I thought it would be better than it was, which is that it still suffers from idiosyncrasies related to motion blur, so you get feel things that look hard, you know, in 3D, and so I don't feel like I mean you see some of the geometry, but I don't know, I don't know if it's worth it yet to watch a lot, of, a lot of, a lot of the things by the way there's.

0:36:41 - Ray Maxwell
There's talking about comparing 3D movies and 3D in this. To me, the experience is quite different and I I don't know how Apple solved this, but in 3D movies, the actual plane that your eyes are focused on and the binocular verging sometimes doesn't match your binocular eyes turning in doesn't match the plane you're focused on convergence, all right, and I don't know how they're doing it, but I and that, by the way, makes people nauseated or gives them eye strain and so forth. I don't get that at all in watching 3D things in this.

0:37:22 - Alex Lindsay
I definitely didn't get it at all. I think that the only thing that I was really conscious to was low frame rate and hard edges around things. I felt like the 3D it niche of it was good. I just felt like it was like you know. Like now I will say that hidden in Apple music Apple as this post that we were talking about at first they definitely buried some of the buried some of the story. So, hidden in music, there is an Alicia Keys video of her doing a concert which it looks like they probably shot with a Canon R5, four of them so they shot. It's a 180 video experience of Alicia Keys.

0:37:59 - Jason Snell
It's in the TV app.

0:38:01 - Alex Lindsay
Is it in the TV app?

0:38:01 - Jason Snell
Oh, I didn't see it. It's in their immersive performances list or immersive video list in the TV app with the. Alicia Keys thing where they when they try to mask out where the cameras are. But you can spot them. They're in little white kiosks.

0:38:14 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, and they and she walks around and I and I guess I would say that I thought it was a great example of what might be coming and I, given that Apple bought Next VR, I have a feeling we're gonna see a lot more of this, not less. It is much more compelling than a lot of the 3D movies is to see this 180 stereo. Yes, and I'll tell you the thing that they. I think that what they missed there and again, I've done a lot of this, and so we've kind of gotten into this habit what they really should have done there is taking the rest of the band out of there, let her play the piano and have her just play to you and just sing to you.

There's moments where she looks right at the camera and it's very compelling, and I think that this idea of putting too much around them. You end up in a more observer status than a presence status when you start changing the cameras, and I think that that's what, and so I think that there's, I don't think you need a lot of cameras to make this work, and I think that you can build that out, and we've done a lot of testing in this area, so, and so I think that that was the only thing. I felt a little over Apple, over produced, I mean the typical, like we spent all the money on it.

0:39:23 - Jason Snell
I think it was a good choice. I see what you're saying. There is a real question philosophically about whether you want to be a fly on the wall or whether you want it to feel directed right. Does the camera move? Are there multiple camera angles and all of that. And the Alicia Keys video, while it is spectacular, but it is also a choice. And there's some questions about spatial audio. Right, when you change your location by switching cameras, does the audio shift? Does it stay the same? How does it affect the soundscape? But I will say, one of the things that struck me in the Alicia Keys video and this is about how our brains work is that when she is singing, at the very beginning, she is looking right into that camera and it is like she's singing to me.

0:39:59 - Alex Lindsay
And that-.

0:40:00 - Ray Maxwell
Some people on our Discord said they didn't like it.

0:40:02 - Jason Snell
That was just like so good. I didn't like it I was like no Alicia. Keys. I am an intruder.

0:40:07 - Alex Lindsay
I don't deserve to be here.

0:40:09 - Jason Snell
Sing to someone else and just let me watch.

0:40:11 - Leo Laporte
And I think that is a brain thing, it's a human brain thing. Yeah, it's a little creepy but you will get used to it and soon you will fall in love. It's just different right and different people are gonna react differently but it is amazing. A lot of people on the.

0:40:23 - Jason Snell
Discord did not like it.

0:40:24 - Leo Laporte
I'm actually amazed how many people in our club have Vision Pros. I think we're gonna have to do a lot more Vision Pro coverage.

0:40:31 - Alex Lindsay
I'm not surprised either. I should admit we talked about Vision Pro on office hours this morning. It's the most viewed non-WWC show ever done. It was definitely a practice.

0:40:39 - Leo Laporte
We're gonna take a break real. I wanna give you a last chance before we go into the break and we let you go because you are in Canada. Can you see the Alicia Keys thing, for instance? Can you download that? Can you do?

0:40:50 - Ray Maxwell
some of these. Oh, one of the disappointments is I thought when I got home and unpacked my thing, that the whole demo thing that I saw would be available to me. Oh, the demo's not. It isn't yeah. It is. No, it is, it is.

0:41:03 - Jason Snell
So if you're maybe not in Canada, I can't speak that but, if you're in the US and you're wondering about that demo, it's hard to find. You have to go open the TV app, you have to go to the search tab and then, without searching, it provides a bunch of suggestions and one of them is a bunch of spatial suggestions, and the last one of those is the demo reel, which does include. Somebody was asking in the Discord, are those series? And they are. Are those videos where they're, like you know, performance episode one, and dinosaurs episode one? Those are. And the, the immersion adventure episode one with the woman in the in the at the fjord, those. There are clips from things that we haven't seen yet that are in that demo video and you can watch it.

0:41:44 - Leo Laporte
So what do you think fiction TV will do in this Will? Will there be a Sopranos or a succession for Vision Pro that will transform the way we see television?

0:41:55 - Jason Snell
My guess is webisodes, because it's experimental. Like Alex said, right, our, our vision of of movies and TV involves a point of view a director. You know mixtage, montage, right, cuts and zooms and all sorts of stuff that you learned about in film school if you went to film school. But that is, is that the best format for immersion? You know, you listen to Alex and he would say you kind of don't want that, you kind of want to let people be in the environment, which is why I feel like, at least at the start, it's going to be more like webisodes. There's a rumor that they did a bunch of behind the scenes stuff that would be interesting show on on Apple TV plus. So that's what I think is going to happen first is people are going to like do that, and then maybe the next step is an sort of like you know those Christopher Nolan movies where there are selected scenes, and I max where there'll be things like that too. But I feel like we're in experimental mode.

0:42:48 - Alex Lindsay
Alex, what do you think? I agree, I agree, and I think that I think that the behind the scenes is going to be very compelling. I think that when I think about what I think will happen versus, I have no idea. But the Matrix, white, the white rabbit version if anyone remembers the old DVD, there was a white rabbit. You could turn it on the white rabbit version of the Matrix and as you watch the Matrix you little white rabbit would pop up in the DVD and you click on it and it would show you a whole behind the scenes of how that shot got built.

You wouldn't want to watch it the first time. When you want to watch it again, you'd watch through it, and I think that they've seen these stereo cameras bouncing around the Apple sets for a while. So we assume that probably you may see a scene that might be done in 180. You might see a lot of behind the scenes that are done in 180. Now I don't think we're going to see a lot of 360. Again, 360,. The problem with it is that the lift between 180 and 360 is fairly dramatic and the payoff is almost zero, because you have to stand up and turn around.

0:43:43 - Ray Maxwell
Yeah, you've got to stand up to use it.

0:43:45 - Alex Lindsay
Well, the other thing is that for us to create, the reason that the return is very low is because you have to stand up and look at it. The reason that we don't like to do it is because we A have to now clean up everything.

0:43:55 - Leo Laporte
You never have to hide. A movie set is a proscenium. You never have the stuff behind the camera visible.

0:44:02 - Jason Snell
Alex, you probably noticed this. I really enjoyed looking at the Alicia Keys video especially, but all those immersive videos are fascinating because you can actually see if you look at where the crop is that 180 immersive? There are moments, like early on in the Alicia Keys video, they want to crop out one of the cameras and so the right side is a little bit narrower before you get to the black space. That's all going on there too, so it's very clear like it's hard right.

0:44:32 - Alex Lindsay
You can tell that they wanted to sell you on the feeling of it before you. As you watch it, you slowly realize, you slowly identify where all the cameras are. That's kind of part of the show, but I think that you're right. I was like I don't think I saw that at the very beginning, but I do think that you're going to see a lot of experimental, I think, for music, for performance and everything else.

0:44:51 - Leo Laporte
This is going to be A lot of people talking about sports being perfect for sports. I don't, man.

0:44:59 - Jason Snell
It looks so good that demo. One of the reasons to watch that demo video is because it does have a couple of sports clips.

0:45:05 - Leo Laporte
Court side with the Warriors would be pretty amazing.

0:45:09 - Jason Snell
The question is like what are the rights issues? However, disney is Apple partner and they have ESPN.

0:45:17 - Leo Laporte
The NBA app is on there on day one.

0:45:19 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I think NBA is on there. And then, yeah, Max is an NBA partner and the Max app is there on day one.

0:45:25 - Leo Laporte
So there's lots of options. Because you're an F1 fan, you'll get this. There is an F1 viewer program from my Mac that lets me see F1 TV. Their own video feed has every driver's view. It has all sorts of data views. It has, of course, the race view, but it also has I mean it's 20 screens if you open them all. I would love to have that in a watch F1 race. I do think you're going to end up with sports.

0:45:55 - Alex Lindsay
I definitely think for sports you're going to have the ability to open up a couple of windows. You know, eventually these are fixed windows that you can always open up. You can throw bits over here or multiple games, Like I think with MLS. We're going to see a lot of the, the refinement of this, where I can have four or five games up and I can look at one and tap my fingers and hear the audio, and look at another one, tap my fingers and hear that audio, and I can.

You know, possibly and I do think that you'll have what we found with 360, at least with soccer, was that you generally wanted to experience a moment in 360, but you didn't want to watch the whole game that way because there's a lot of cut. There's a reason there's a lot of cameras there, and so you still want to see the cut. But you also want to like it'd be really great to be standing on the pylon or right behind the pylon, right when someone is diving over the goal line or something like that in football. Those are the kind of things. But you only want us to be there for the moment that it happened or right after it happened, not the rest of the game.

0:46:46 - Leo Laporte
Despite Jim James Cameron's advocacy and support, 3d did not really happen in movies and it really didn't happen at home on the TV set. Is this going to bring 3D back?

0:47:00 - Alex Lindsay
I think that I think you'll see more 3D production. I mean, I know a lot of people who own the. You know James Cameron did it right and so that everyone loved it, and then everyone else did it very badly and so everyone burned down to it really quickly. If you're cutting people out and putting them on cardboard, little cardboard planes, people aren't going to enjoy it. The reason that Avatar made us see that 3D was a future was because he actually shot it in 3D. So a lot of the movies that are just kind of fake 3D are probably not going to. You know, that model isn't really going to work. But I do know that everybody who's got 3D rigs back from the last wave of 3D are all dusting them off and trying to make sure that they can run and everything else. Those are like $60,000 rigs that need to be turned back on again and they were selling for five. Like I could have bought three of these like two years ago for five grand each, you know, like just almost a hunk of metal, you know, and so there's a lot of people are going back into that. I don't know, to be honest, if 16 by 9 3D is really going to be the future. I think that there's a lot that's going to go on with the 180 stereo, and so I think that that's going to be a really interesting thing.

I also watching on the headset, and this won't change the way people make movies. I do find that the wider the screen, the less quality of the experience for me as a viewer. So the IMAX 143 or even 1 to 1s which is why I think you get 1 to 1 when you shoot with the headset, but that more squarish, you know, when I was one and I noticed it because I put on the Wizard of Oz, which is a 133, I think and I put Wizard of Oz on, I was like wow, it looks really, really good. And then I put something on that was like 235 and you have to zoom it back so that you can see everything, and so now you just feel like you got a lot less. You know, like in the as an experience, and so the because the headset does have a limited field of view that you notice that that limited field of view on a widescreen video, that more than you see it in a squarish, you know experience.

0:48:51 - Jason Snell
And so I think on Max looked really great. Actually, one of the nice things is you get out of the of the box and the movies are. Movies are just whatever shape they are.

0:48:59 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah the no letter box, yeah, and that. So what was felt? Less you felt like you're being killed. Now feels. Now you can zoom it up more and it actually feels bigger and better in a lot of ways, in that more squarish format.

0:49:12 - Leo Laporte
Ray, we're going to take a break. I want to give you a final thought before we go to the break, because I don't want to keep you here forever. Okay, he's sweating right into that thing and I know I'm very comfortable. Yeah, how many hours have you spent in it so far? You?

0:49:29 - Ray Maxwell
know I've spent three or four hours in it and you know didn't didn't find it uncomfortable, I said I sat on FaceTime with mine. A friend of mine went down with me. Another Canadian then picked up his and we've been sharing our experience. By the way, less you feel too sorry for me. Everything that's on Apple TV that I had access to before I went down there I have access to in my vision pro. So that's all the TV shows and movies and so forth. I have been viewing those in this and I have to say I think this is the best 3D experience I've had. What do you think, alex of?

0:50:08 - Alex Lindsay
for viewing 100% best best viewing, best 3D, and we always knew that headsets were going to be a better viewing experience. I think that the problem with the quest was just resolution, and so the resolution has been solved on this one, and so it's definitely the best 3D viewing experience that I've had. I think that, again, I think that what we're going to start to see is increased frame rate. So as the frame rate goes up and I was talking to someone else about it and I didn't really think about it from a gamer's perspective, but they said the older folks generating content or the people who've been doing it for a long time, are really into 24p, but the gamers, the next generation, are gamers and they want to see 144, they want to see 120, they want to see high frame rate and they don't want to see 24. And so there's a pretty strong push, I think, for you know, there's no rumors that production requests are 8k 120.

0:50:58 - Leo Laporte
I wonder why Apple didn't make this just a screen and have, since you're already tethered to a battery. Why not just put the whole computing device separately? You could make a much more powerful computing device.

0:51:11 - Alex Lindsay
I don't know. I think that was the problem with the Oculus. I mean Oculus did that and it was a big tether.

Yeah, you know, and and I think the problem is, is that what's very convenient, like I, and I've worked with ones where they have huge cables coming down from the ceiling that hook into your head and it's one, so forth, and it's cool, and some of them had a lot of performance at. Onyx is running them, and it was my first experience and that was in the early 90s. Yeah, exactly, and so the, the, but I think that again, for me to be able to walk over to my living room, sit down and watch, some of the important.

0:51:42 - Leo Laporte
It is be able to lie down and walk around yeah. Yeah.

0:51:48 - Ray Maxwell
If I want to go all day, I have power. You know I have this for my Black Magic 6k pro. I can plug it in and go all day. I have put this on my belt. It has a belt.

0:52:03 - Leo Laporte
As long as you have power delivery. I think that the wattage that the adapter that comes with it is, I think, 30. So anything that you deliver which PD absolutely can do right, so anything could deliver full power to it, Well, it doesn't even need to be full power because you're you're powering the battery.

0:52:19 - Alex Lindsay
Okay, so even if you, even if you had 10 watts, it would just slow the battery would. It would slow the it would. It would last for five hours instead of two, or whatever.

0:52:27 - Ray Maxwell
Anyway, I am not disappointed. I am wowed by it. I'm having a lot of fun playing with it, playing with my friend who got one, and thank you for having me on today, leo, and the rest of the team here, and I am enjoying it, and stay in touch.

0:52:45 - Leo Laporte
Always love having you on. Ray, you're the greatest. I never have anything to plug. You still taking, you're still doing photography. Are you going to change how you do photography with this in mind?

0:52:58 - Ray Maxwell
Oh yeah, I can't, well, I can't wait till summer comes and I can take this to the glider and the air. Oh yeah, I'm still flying, okay, and I think I can have a lot of fun with this, especially doing 3d of the cockpit.

0:53:14 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, or just a loop to loop, because I'm not going up there, but I'd love to watch. I'd love to experience it in the safety of my own home. Ray Maxwell, always, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it. Sure thing, take care, ray, I enjoyed it. Someday he won't be in Canada, or maybe no, the vision pro will come to you. That's the way we want. We're going to continue. We got a great panel and we're going to continue with our great panel of. In fact, you know I've got color graphs too. We need to do those in vision pro. Jason Snell is here from six colorscom. Andy and I go from GBH, boston, and from office hoursglobal. Alex Lindsay, and, of course, ray spends a lot of time in office hours too. So another place. If you had questions for Ray or you wanted to talk to him some more, that would be a place to go.

Our show today, brought to you by E cam, you know, on Sunday, uh, just towards the end of the twit, the power went out in the studio. I was sitting in the dark and I ran home and I fired up E cam and I was able to finish the show from my house. In fact, it makes me think maybe that's the future. E cam is the leading live streaming and video production studio built for Mac, and I love it. Whether you're a beginner or an expert, e cam is here to elevate your video production from streaming and recording to podcasting and presenting. E cam live is your all in one video tool, perfect for simplifying your workflow. It works great with all my cameras. I just love it, and it and, by the way, multiple camera support means and screen sharing means. You can switch from camera to camera, even to your screen. Your live camera switcher lets you direct your show in real time. It's it's incredible. Stand out from the crowd with high quality video. Yes, you can do the lower thirds. Yes, you can add logos, titles, graphics, share your screen, drop in video clips, bring on interview guests, use a green screen. It does it all. It does it all.

Join the thousands of worldwide entrepreneurs, marketing professionals, podcasters, educators, musicians and other Mac users who rely on E cam live daily. We are big E cam fans. Of course, mike and Rosemary use it on iOS today. Get one month free when you subscribe to any of E cams plans. Honestly, I wish E cam had been around when I started a tweet. I might not have built this giant studio. Visit e camcom slash twit. Use a promo code T W I T at checkout. E cam and E cam live are amazing. Back we come Now. One of the things that we should probably talk about is we're already hearing drum beats about vision pro 1.1 or visionos 1.1. I think a beta is now out there were beta, just came out.

I think yeah because one of the complaints people had is if you forget your pin, do not forget your pin. You had to go to the Apple store to reset it. That's fixed in 1.1. And there are some other things. Yes, jason, you are you. You haven't installed it yet.

0:56:19 - Jason Snell
I haven't installed it. All I have heard is that you have to reset your persona. Somebody in the discord just said that, which maybe suggests that they're doing some persona tweaks as well. I don't know. I don't know whether to think that all of these versions are going to be like little tiny tweaks to fix bugs that have cropped up, or whether they're going to keep rolling stuff out. My guess is they're holding new stuff for maybe a 2.0 release come WWDC, and that this is going to be more addressing all of the kind of like hair on fire bugs that are being discovered.

Like I found a bug about movies anywhere, redemptions show up as 3D but don't play in 3D in the TV app, and it's just a weird thing where you easily you end up in between, and I'm my understanding is that they're on it and that they're working on it, but there's going to be a lot of stuff like that where they're like oh, we didn't even think about that. So I imagine that's going to be the case, but you never know. I mean a whole 1.0 cycle. Is it possible that there's something they held back that they're like yeah, we're just going to drop that in now. I don't know, we'll see.

0:57:23 - Leo Laporte
I also know that there are rumors that there will be a Vision Pro light or a vision maybe not pro vision, something maybe even later this year.

0:57:34 - Alex Lindsay
Later this year I'd be well vision for riff ref vision for you and me.

0:57:39 - Jason Snell
I think Ming-Chi Quo said that it's going to be and Mark Gurman both have said that it's going to be years, years Hardware 2026 is, I think, the number.

0:57:48 - Alex Lindsay
Oh, all right, the thing that we're hearing is that this is it, this is it, and I think that, most likely, then that allows this one to go one direction, which is a higher performance headset, possibly for the same price or more, and another one that goes down. That is probably the same specs as this headset. Like. This is probably what we get for the, what you get with for it.

0:58:07 - Andy Ihnatko
Or later. They're limited by display technology right now. Not only that, their next, the next level up is going to have to be to try to make these micro displays even better. Until then, they are certainly not going to degrade the video experience of using this device. So the only way they can get the price down is until Sony mayors men's to control their yields, control their manufacturing, and therefore that's the only opportunity they would ever have to get the set of thousand bucks. And that's not happening anytime soon.

0:58:33 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I mean there is, so they do their margins all always improve. The longer you use those parts, the longer they're on the production line, the cheaper it is for Apple to make it, which is a thing that happens. But and I, yeah, I have a hard time imagining that this isn't the low price. Whatever it is would be sort of a decontented version of this, including things like taking the eyesight off the front and maybe the bands or not. There are only one in the box and it's a cheaper one and I mean they'll they have to figure that stuff out, but it certainly in the long run they have to make one that doesn't cost 3500 or 3000 or 2500, honestly, but I think it's going to be a while right, like I think if they can make that product now, they would have. Then instead it's going to move more like a couple of years away.

0:59:16 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, what do you? What do you think they're going to do with eyesight, though? Do you think they're going to try to improve it, or they're going to decide that, okay, this was an interesting idea. It's not really. It's not really winning hearts and minds. We may as well just drop it and cut them and use and take that money back.

0:59:29 - Jason Snell
I kind of think it's too early to tell, but what I want to answer is almost say to say yes and say I think they need to experiment with it, and maybe they will continue to experiment with it. Look, there's a scenario where they just the people inside Apple who said why are we spending money on this thing? It's dumb, nobody cares. They may win the day based on customer feedback, but I think it's also possible that they'll like win the day on the low end system that they're designing, but on the high end they'll be like no, no, no, we can do it better, and maybe they'll be given that opportunity. I do think that they are right in saying there needs to be an indicator to say I can see you or I can't see you, but it doesn't need to be a full display with a 3D representation that's animated of your eyes, or could it be something a little less than that to indicate that I can see you? You know, googly eyes on, googly eyes off, that kind of thing.

1:00:21 - Alex Lindsay
I'm going to guess that they went this way because they tried those other ones and they looked goofier than this. They might have decided that this is the. I will say that.

1:00:30 - Jason Snell
Right, the people who won the argument at least.

1:00:32 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, exactly, and so I think that the so I think it's going to probably just try to get better rather than go away. That's my guess.

1:00:40 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, but maybe it's. It's hard. It's hard to say Like which would you just got me thinking? Like which would feel more natural looking at someone who's wearing goggles, which is something you're kind of used to, particularly if you live in Aspen versus looking at somebody who suddenly a green light in the middle of the bridge of the nose lights up, even if it's a tiny little light, to say, oh, by the way, my attention is now on you. Would that be disquieting that, like now, I'm looking at a glowing light as, as opposed to your, human face?

1:01:07 - Alex Lindsay
It's so dim, I don't really know Like it. I just don't know if it matters. I think that people have really gotten hung up on the eyes and they've gotten hung up on the avatars and I would say that I just don't. I don't use either of them that much and so I just don't know if that really is that big of a. I mean, I think that maybe, but I don't know. It's so. It's like such a small percentage of the experience that I'm not sure that that it matters.

1:01:29 - Leo Laporte
Didn't we really know all along, though, that there would be many things that wouldn't be sticky and that there are things that would be, and the point of this is to find out. So I don't think it's a problem if some of it doesn't stick, it's okay. Okay, that didn't work.

We tried and it didn't work. But as long as but there does need to be, and I'm starting to think there might well be killer apps for this in the next month or so, that would. That would make people go okay, it's sticky, this is, I will buy it. For that. By then it'll be too late. By the way, y'all you guys have got one of your. You're lucky, you have one. But but?

1:02:09 - Andy Ihnatko
but it is a feature category that you're gonna have to stick with, because the thing that's always gonna be dogged in this device is that it is isolating, that you can only really talk to people really talk to people who have this $3,500 thing, and if you don't have any sort of concession to people who are also in the room, if you don't have a way, while you're using this, to have a video chat with other people who are, who are in your life, without having this thing on your face, it's a problem that Apple is gonna want to solve, I think, in some way, shape or form, whether this is the best way to do it. I guess Apple's gonna figure that out. If they, if they get rid of these features, I don't think they'll get rid of the intent, though.

1:02:44 - Leo Laporte
We have a loop, a loop hiker in the Discord, by the way, so I guess we're gonna see people going on hikes wearing these things. I think it'd be better to take them off and just enjoy the great outdoors, but anyway, you know what Nature is in 3D and the resolution's spectacular. He says that his killer app would be dropping app windows around his house and having the persist as he moves through the house. Can you do that now?

1:03:11 - Jason Snell
You can do that now. The problem is that if you reboot the thing, they go away.

And that I mean. But that's we talked about 1.0, like. That strikes me as a very clear feature ad for 2.0 or for 1.1, which is, save the window location. And there's a. There's a thing if you hold the digital crown down, it will summon all your windows to you. I literally said I was telling my wife this the other night I literally said last week on Friday after I got the thing, oh, I left my settings app in the garage. I left, I did, I left my settings app in the garage and it is on one level. It's brilliant, right, like the idea that if you want to work that way and leave like a widget in the kitchen and have it be there when you go to the kitchen, you should be able to do that and have it persist, but it right now it doesn't persist across reboots. But I can't imagine that. That's not going to be a feature.

In fact, a lot of the things they need to build are window management. That just is so clear to me, even after only using it for a few days, is that they've built the first iOS based freeform multi-window interface, and because it's not a Mac, it doesn't really have any window management to speak of.

1:04:27 - Alex Lindsay
I do find myself hitting that crown all the time, like just tap the crown and everything goes full to the front it comes back.

1:04:33 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, I love the idea of when they start to go beyond, the idea of let's just have like mirage floating screens that lock into place. Imagine being able to, like I'm looking at like a poster I've got on my wall. Imagine being able to simply tap on that and say I want my timers. Instead of looking, instead of seeing that picture, I want to see timers, and that's going to be that thing I'm pointing out right now. That window I actually want to have like a live view of the parts of the room or whatever, and not simply like open a window, drag it's like no, when I walk into this room when I'm in game mode, I can always look at the exact same place to know what the time is. How long has this show been running that sort of stuff?

1:05:10 - Jason Snell
This is exactly. It's actually one of the things that I'm surprised there's not more true like augmented reality in this product. There's a little bit of it, but there are these hints that go to what you're saying, which is, I feel like one of the things Apple has just sort of like deferred for now is object sensing to do things like saying I would like to apply this to that shape, that framed picture, that window like physical window, not window in an OS, and have it go there. There are a few places where they do that. One is your laptop, where they detect your laptop using machine learning. They're like that is a laptop, they know that it's a mac, and they put the little thing right above it that says connect, which I can only get work like half the time, but it's very cool.

And the other one is keyboard. If you pair a Bluetooth keyboard to this thing, which I have done, and then you look down at the keyboard, there's a little the floating like auto correct and suggestion bar floats right above the top of the keyboard because it recognizes the shape of the keyboard. Obviously it also recognizes the shape of your hands and it breaks those out. But there could be more of that and I like what you said, Andy, which is that's a good example of like. It's like snapping windows to the side of your screen or something it's being able to say I would like to play something, not just kind of over there, but like I'd like to play something on that framed picture and have the device understand that that's an object in 3D space and that they're not quite there yet. But that's, that's one of the exciting places that they can go with this stuff.

1:06:40 - Alex Lindsay
And they in WWZ. They showed persistence, you know, like being able to drop objects into the real world and leave them there for like somewhere in a park and people could walk up and it was still there.

1:06:50 - Leo Laporte
If they knew it was there. There was a sharing. That's the other question. Right, there was a Minecraft game that that failed. That Microsoft put out, but that was the premise of it.

1:06:59 - Alex Lindsay
But you could so, and what it did is it was a mixture of the GPS information as well as image, a scene recognition. Microsoft has a technology, all these things, and lock it in Microsoft as an Azure technology with location and Apple showing that showed that maybe, I don't know four or five years ago is that technology that we haven't used, and so you could totally be, you could again.

I think that what's really interesting is I'm, as this grows, I don't know like I kind of feel, like I know this will sound dystopian, but I feel like I want a room in my office, in my house, that is like 15 by 15 by 15. That is just empty, you know, because I kind of just want to have a place I can just walk in and just do the belt. I want you to name it. No, I thought had crossed my mind, it just I was like we talked about it this morning. I was like it's like the belt without the lions and so the and so the. So it is a little belt like, in the sense that you want to go in there.

1:07:51 - Leo Laporte
You just don't want a lot of stuff and the biggest problem you have is there's stuff in the way we're referring to a classic Ray Bradbury short story which everybody who wants to do that should read.

1:08:04 - Alex Lindsay
There's no lions and nobody's gonna lie but the. But I will say that, like we, I was this is right.

1:08:10 - Leo Laporte
Georgia Dow has a has three VR rooms, because everybody in your family wants to play.

1:08:18 - Alex Lindsay
Well, the the with the HoloLens, there was a company that I was working with that had a it was probably 30 by 30 room that was empty, and what they let you do is wander construction sites.

So you can sit there and wander around through a construction site and and, and they would take it was like light, our scans, and you could see as built versus, you know, and so they were already kind of doing those visualizations. But what you end up needing is and we did this with in our office, it was about probably 40 by 40 by 20, we built a virtual museum and so you could walk around in the museum and it was now we were using outside in tracking because we had a motion capture system so you could wander around, but there were like these huge statues and you could wander around and get information and so, and so I think that that kind of thing is going to be things that we think about in the not very distant future. I think that I think Apple has not only buried the lead a little bit in their marketing, they buried the lead deep into. They haven't even released most of what they have in this headset, and so I think that we're probably. I think WWDC is probably going to be a really fun week.

1:09:20 - Jason Snell
Alex, that's the impression I get too is that there there are clearly like whole swaths of this that they just said.

Let's set that to the side for now and ship this thing right, and more augmented reality based on sensing existing objects and attaching things to them, is one of them.

And absolutely true sharing in general, whether it's sharing with people virtually or sharing in the real world, having kind of like things that are consensual. If you have two of these right now in the same room, they are looking at completely different scenes, but clearly you have to go in a direction where objects can be marked as a shared object in a space, instead of not whether it's in the real world, like tagged out in the world somewhere, like you said, or whether it's just in a particular room. And then the creation of virtual spaces with shared items that people can go in, rather than it just being kind of like a fancy FaceTime. And it's clear that like they have all the pieces for this and at some point they're like not at 1.0, just no, not at 1.0. And I don't think it's the hardware, I think it's just the software. They left whole chunks and they just said later, do that later.

1:10:26 - Alex Lindsay
And knowing that Apple has been doing this, working on this, for a decade. When you look at the sharing of watching videos on FaceTime on Oprah Messe, you know and the movie sharing, it takes on an entirely different view when you think about this so being. We've talked about not being able to watch it, but what if you have a bunch of people with headsets and it ties all their movie experiences together so they can sit there and talk amongst themselves and watch a movie? If they're not in the same room, you know, with each other, so it's gonna be and you can see their thumb faces all around you.

1:10:56 - Leo Laporte
It'll be so amazing.

1:10:57 - Alex Lindsay
Well, and you know the free, you know the freeform app or whatever is something that might be pretty interesting. Oh yeah, whiteboard, yeah, the freeform, I think, which is Apple's like next notes, you know so here's an interesting data point.

1:11:11 - Leo Laporte
This is a company called Metaviz. Thank you to the Discord who passed this along. Fda cleared surgical AR. This is a Vision Pro app for surgery and maybe tie that to the fact that there is a San Diego hospital system that just bought 30 Vision Pro units and has launched a new spatial computing center of excellence. This is from the San Diego Union Tribune Sharp healthcare in San Diego 30 units. But what they're doing is interesting. They're not just giving it to physicians and nurses, they're also giving it to informaticists and software developers and others. So that you know I know that may just be a publicity- stunt, but maybe not.

1:11:58 - Alex Lindsay
It's something like this may not, that might not yield anything for three to four years, but it's like, hey, we should get a bunch of these. What someone decided is, hey, let's get a bunch of these headsets in and see what we can do, and see what we can do, you know, and see what we can do. There's probably potential.

There's potentials for, I mean already in the meta for the quest, there's been, you know, a lot of PTSD treatment, especially, you know, mixed with, you know, psychoactive drugs and so on and so forth, that have been really effective, like, and so those types of things, those kinds of treatments, are gonna probably be things that people test, you know, on those things.

1:12:31 - Leo Laporte
And so you know what I have to say. I'm a little less skeptical than I was. How hard would it be asking for a friend to take, let's say, somebody you bought a Vision Pro for, and to take it and make it yours? Can you do that?

1:12:50 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, you should be over it.

1:12:52 - Jason Snell
You know, the answer to so many of these questions is can you do that with iOS? And then, if you can like, there's literally it's really an iPad. You said that was very interesting.

Yeah, that you reset or transfer feature on the iPad. It's there in the Settings app, if you can find it. If you didn't leave it behind in your garage, it's right there. Yeah, no, that is one of the things that really struck me. Using it, leo, is as somebody who has attached an iPad to a screen use it in that magic keyboard with a trackpad, put it in a stage manager where you've got multiple windows and all of that. It is an iPad Like in so many ways. It is the mega 3D iPad with you know. And then the Mac sharing window is there if you want to use a Mac, and that's great too, but it is like.

That's the platform advantage. That's the advantage Apple has of having built this on top of iOS for more than a decade is there's all this infrastructure stuff that it's just there, right, and it might look a little different, like Control Center is hidden behind a little firefly you have to look up and find and then tap on, but like it's Control Center. I didn't need to look up how to attach a Bluetooth keyboard. I literally tapped and held on the Bluetooth icon in Control Center and it said would you like to pair this keyboard? And I said yep, and it was paired. So there's so much of it that anybody who's used an Apple device will be familiar with, and that's good as a user, but also if you're developing this thing to not have to invent all that stuff, all that plumbing, all that basic like what goes in the settings app. It's like it's the settings app. You've seen it before. It's familiar.

1:14:22 - Alex Lindsay
And I think that and people have talked about this a little bit but really the secret weapon to this is the fact that as an Apple user, it's so ties into everything else. You already have the ecosystem. If my notes are there and my texts are there and all the, I can transfer files very easily there I can. So the thing is is there was so much of my time that was spent like. I think that it was always like you could put things on the request, but you're like ooh, like, like this is gonna be a thing, and with this I'm like I have a little. I have a thing, a transfer doc folder in my iCloud. I just throw things in there that I wanna put on all the devices. So I just throw models in there or whatever, and I open them up and I start looking at them and the and so it's that fluidity is a big part of why I think it's probably gonna work pretty well, I wonder why Apple isn't more promoting games.

1:15:08 - Leo Laporte
Because when we talked about immersive movies, a game is inherently immersive. There is something behind you, there's something in front of you, something first person shooter style game World of Warcraft and this might be amazing.

1:15:21 - Alex Lindsay
I think they don't want to be defined by games. I think that Apple is very it's yeah, games is gonna be something that's gonna happen, naturally, and they're not gonna need to do anything. So why put any gas in that tank? Because it'll fill up on its own. And they, I think that what they want you to see is all the other things that you can do with it. You know, and I think that there are a lot of things that I'm doing with it.

1:15:42 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, also, this is something that Meta can already do really, really well. So, again, why bring that part of the conversation in there? And this is I think that most of the messaging that Apple has been doing hasn't really been on the basis of hey, go to your Apple store right now and buy one of these. It's been, hey, let's plant this flag inside your consciousness so that in a year from now, two years from now, when we do have something that's a lot more rational for the regular consumer, it won't feel like a revolutionary brand new game changing. Oh, I'm taking a big risk. It's like, oh, this has been around for a couple of years and now I can finally forward one. What? Yay, right, although Jason, you brought, so you bring up the pairing Bluetooth, I was surprised to learn through the developer tech note that it can't work with Bluetooth mouses. It can work with, like the latest Magic Trackpad, not even the older Magic Trackpad, but I wonder why that? Well, yeah, it's the one.

1:16:33 - Jason Snell
It doesn't work with a Magic Trackpad with AA batteries in it, and I think that's because of the method they use to do device pairing, and the new devices can be found Because you can pair them by a lightning, but they also just say I'm here and so, even if it's connected to something else, another Apple device can see it and say no, no, I want that and can grab it, which is what you're using when you pair it here. Mice it's an interesting question. They must have just decided that they didn't want to support mice because it added a level of complexity when you're jumping from window to window, or they felt like there was a geographic thing. It's also possible they just tossed it overboard because they wanted to ship this thing. But yeah, it is a trackpad.

Only kind of experience, although I will say just using a Bluetooth keyboard with it and then using the gestures the eye gaze and the gestures it works pretty well, like having a trackpad when you're under universal control also works really well, though. It's really nice, especially with some of those iPad apps where the touch targets aren't very good, to have the little floating circle going around that's your iPad cursor. That is very helpful in navigating those iPad compatible apps especially.

1:17:44 - Andy Ihnatko
It did seem weird when I read that. I double checked to see okay, so can't use a trackpad either, but no, can use trackpad, so it feels like it's a. I think that you're I agree with your idea. That your second idea that maybe it's just something, that there is a problem that we can't absolutely 100% lick, whether it's user interface, whether it's pairing. Let's not even have to solve that right now. If that's something that, hey, congratulations, 11.2.

1:18:11 - Leo Laporte
Ray mentions in our Discord, ray Maxwell's in the Discord if you connect a Mac to a Mac, the Mac mouse can move to the vision pro screens.

1:18:20 - Jason Snell
There's universal control right, so you can use any input device that's on your.

1:18:24 - Leo Laporte
Mac. This is an iPad.

1:18:26 - Jason Snell
And let me tell you, universal control is one of those features. That is this classic Apple feature where it comes out and everybody's like, oh, that's really cool, I can use my Mac and my iPad. And now all of a sudden I say to myself, oh, was universal control for the vision pro all along? Cause it's really good. Like literally, you've got your Mac in front of you and a vision OS app above it and you just use your Mac's trackpad to move the pointer off the top of the screen and it just pops into the other app and you've got the little iPad like pointer and yeah, you can use that with whatever is driving your Mac at that point.

1:18:58 - Andy Ihnatko
One thing I have a minute to talk to you offline about, but it'll work here. But two, there are two problems that exactly, hey man, there are two problems that a lot of people are bringing up either on Reddit or the pros who are like reviewing the thing. One is bloom when you have high contrast edges. Another is like oh boy, I think I think one of our mutual friends thing. I thought that was a really great display and it made me really, really happy to go back to my retina display when I took it off, when I took it off my head, because of the added detail. So bloom in detail, what do you?

1:19:31 - Jason Snell
think Let me do detail first. It is an incredibly detailed screen, but the fact is that the Mac screen sharing, if you put I mean bottom line, if you get really close to it, you can see the quality of it. But if you put it at the distance that you'd put a studio display, at the size that you'd put a studio display, so a retina display. You would always prefer to use the real display over the shared display because the quality it's streaming it, it's at 4K resolution, coming up as a virtual 5K monitor and then it's gonna be set inside a 4K display. It's never gonna look as good as that.

However, the Mac display ends up being more for I've got a little MacBook display and now I've got a giant screen and that's superior, but if you have a big screen, it's not superior to the big screen I would say for the Mac screen sharing. So that's and what was your first? Oh, glooming, glooming. Yes, I don't know if Alex has experienced this, but in very dark environments where you have very bright things, like on a screen, I get lens flare like flare in my vision.

1:20:41 - Alex Lindsay
I see reflection. I see reflection on it's reflections on the lens and it's really hard to get rid of. This is the physics problem of just curved lenses that are there and they're picking up a little bit of that highlight and you do notice it in high contrast. So it's really like if I'm in a dark environment and I put up and I'm watching a movie and it goes into a daylight, you know, I'll see a little bit of reflection across the bottom there's a little bit of.

The other thing is that the seal on the nose isn't perfect and so you get a little bit of light coming in from there as well.

I've been thinking about like how to fix that, to close that off completely, but so there's a little bit of light there that if you can kind of move it around on your nose a little bit, you'll get a little less that. You see, if it's a light area Again. This is why I think that eventually a lot of us went rooms or something like in my office, because I have a lot of control over it. I can kind of turn it to a point where the tracking works well but I don't get a lot of bleed. If I go into my living room, I have a lot of windows and so there's a lot of. There's some light bleed that comes in from the nose and then the, and to exactly that point you do get some reflections on the lens. It's not really I wouldn't say it's blooming, but it's reflection on the lens that happens at the bottom from the bright, from the, you know, from really bright objects on a really dark background.

1:21:51 - Jason Snell
Yeah, and it's not blooming. It is definitely lens reflection, the blue blooming like on an iPad Pro that's got the back lighting. That's not quite perfect, so you get a little little bloom around it. That's not it it's. It's more like a lens flare kind of thing, where you're getting a reflection off of the lens. That is Happening in hot. Only only notice it really when it's like completely black and then a very bright white thing in the center.

1:22:12 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, do not give your vision Pro to Jerry rigs. Everything does that dumbo. Scratch the vision Pro intentionally. And here's what Apple insiders headline says unsurprisingly Apple vision Pro lenses will scratch if you try to destroy them. No, thank you. Can I tell you a story?

1:22:34 - Jason Snell
It's the day that the iPhone comes out. Yeah, and we had. We sent a bunch of people including one of our, one of our junior editors, brian Chen, who now is the tech reporter for the New York Times to wait in line for iPhones, and we got a bunch of iPhones back and so we had like, all right, you do this with that iPhone, you do this with this iPhone, I'll do this with this iPhone. We're covering it all and across the way, just in the same space, across the way, are the editors of PC world, our Dear colleagues at PC world. And what did they do? The first thing they did hey guys, let's drop it until it breaks.

1:23:07 - Andy Ihnatko
I just but this, but this isn't quite the same thing. I mean, I'm I'm sort of tensing for who's who's. No, well, because people are gonna want to know, like okay, it has this protective sock, what happens if, like, if things happen, like they I think that people want to know are gonna be scraping a knife against the thing and expecting it to Survive. What they want to know is that, after six, seven, eight months of use, where again life happens, sometimes like you push it up and maybe the, the strap, your watch band like catches the side of it, like how bad is this kind of, how Resistance is gonna be to the normal wear and tear of life? Is it's gonna look like garbage in six or seven hours? So I'm not.

So, I'm not, I'm not in, I'm not endorsing the law, the drop quote, drop test. We've seen. However, I can get a, I can get behind people who are doing actual Scratch tests where they have the actual like here is the 10, 1 to 10 scale, here is how difficult it is, and it turns out that it's not people are people are kind of misreporting this thing. Oh well, okay, it's plastic thick. Well, no, it's glass. But it does have kind of like a screen protector, sort of covering over it. That is plastic and will like probably scratch out.

1:24:15 - Leo Laporte
We've given Jerry way too much more time than I intended.

1:24:18 - Jason Snell
The fact that Apple ships it with a soft thing that you put on it. Yeah, I think, is the strongest suggestion that it scratches, yeah, cuz I mean they're not given like like oh no, we got, we got, we got to make one of those.

1:24:32 - Andy Ihnatko
We'd be giving that. We'd be giving that away, unless they thought it is oh my god, we got to stop people coming in bringing them back cuz they're scratched Can?

1:24:40 - Jason Snell
we put a thing, a cap on the front. Yeah, let's do that.

1:24:43 - Alex Lindsay
I mean, they sell you a case for $300 or something that really suspends it, and then they give you this too. So you're like you give you this one. So they're like no matter what, you should make sure that you put it. You know you protect that and it's one of those things that it's. It is so well like Apple. This thing just pops on. It is so well thought out. It is like I have to admit that when I first put it on, I was like wow, like that was all the materials on this thing which work, say, thirty five hundred dollar problem.

They really do.

1:25:13 - Jason Snell
Where you buy it for thirty five hundred, and then you see all the ways that they cheaped out around the sides.

1:25:17 - Leo Laporte
No, no, it's they wish they would sell the the little demo tray they have at the Apple store the IKEA demo tray now that I'd like that, especially if it like a charge it and so forth. This is good news. If you want to try the Vision Pro, apparently Apple has lots of appointments available. You're a local Apple store To try it, so go to your Apple store online and it's about half an hour.

Yeah, if you really want to try it, that's a good way to do it. You know, and I think everybody should try it. It'll give you some idea of what everybody's talking about.

1:25:51 - Alex Lindsay
I think I think you can definitely try it. I think that you have to use it 20 minutes. I was kind of like, oh, this is interesting. Yeah, it's after 10 hours. Yeah, well, bowers, that you go. Oh, I could. So a lot, yeah, what's your?

1:26:04 - Leo Laporte
killer Real quickly, because we gotta go to break what's your killer app, alex.

1:26:08 - Alex Lindsay
Well, so I'm gonna be making my pick, but I'll go ahead and tell you it's jigspace. Okay, so they tuned killer app.

1:26:13 - Leo Laporte
That's gonna be Alex. I'll talk about it. It'll be his killer app. Andy, what would your killer app be? What would? What would? What would make you go? God, you know what. I'm gonna start saving my pennies.

1:26:23 - Andy Ihnatko
Probably something that allows me to create workspaces for every single project where, virtually or really speaking, I've got a workspace set up in my kitchen for how I work inside my kitchen, in my office, I can simply say okay, I am doing research today, so please configure this room the way that I do research it kind of has that right.

Well, no, but but can I? We're asked right now, like on the desktop, I can just, you know, swipe left, right, like two different desktops, three different desktops. I would like to have that same sort of capability where it's not like these eight far five Whatever fixed window, virtual windows and a mirror of my Mac display. It's like. No, at this point I'm actually writing, so I don't want to have the distraction of a wide BD, I don't want to always have to open and reopen the same apps. That kind of sophistication which I'm sure is coming, because Apple is really, really, really, in the past three or four days, really really trying to make you, make this, make the sense that this is not a games machine, this is not an entertainment machine, this is a computer. I'm convinced that Apple's certainly gonna do it like, like, like, like. Like Alex said, wwdc is gonna be, is gonna be a time.

1:27:27 - Leo Laporte
Jason, what do you think? Killer app? You got one yet, or what would?

1:27:32 - Jason Snell
Right now. I would say that I really like in Juneau as a vision pro only app. That is the YouTube client that was written by the guy Christian. So like who did the? Who did the reddit client that was so great.

1:27:44 - Leo Laporte
And then it actually confirms Alex's supposition that if you're a developer, hop on, because the first apps are gonna be the ones that everybody's gonna download.

1:27:55 - Alex Lindsay
And yeah, I think Christian said he paid off his headset over the weekend. Yeah, it was. You know, I sold enough copies to YouTube will get there, right, leah?

1:28:01 - Jason Snell
They've said now it's on the roadmap, youtube will get there, but in the meantime, juno is really very thoughtful.

I mean, it is a web view but he's wired it in in all the ways that you possibly can so that you get a.

I watched Marques Brownlee's most recent vision pro video and Actually and I said this earlier but like watching a 2d video, a standard YouTube video in the vision pro Actually, I think, gave me my greatest appreciation for the video quality, because I wasn't distracted by 3d or by 24 frames per second, frame rate, juttering or by the immersive experience, and and the immersive experience is great, but like watching just a, it's just a YouTube video with Marcus Brownlee's face, as he and he's talking, and as I watched it, I thought, oh my god, it looks so good and that was actually kind of the best because all the distractions dropped away and that was all inside Juno. So if you're a YouTube fan and you don't want to, I mean because the YouTube experience in Safari is not that great Juno is really good and it's and and Christian see like he has been through so much with all this BS involving reddit, I was happy to give him some money. Frankly.

1:29:06 - Leo Laporte
Yes, yeah, dr Do says synth riders. It's beat saber for the VP.

1:29:15 - Jason Snell
I like saber, but you're using your hand. I tried it too. I was baffled by it.

1:29:20 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, I like be safer. I went, I went supernatural, but you know, medic carefully bought that. Yeah, they're like we'll take this one off the market, so yeah, yeah.

1:29:32 - Leo Laporte
All right, let's take.

1:29:34 - Jason Snell
Okay, no, no, I was just gonna say. The other thing about this is that it just shipped and almost nobody had it beforehand, and so I think the the next wave is gonna be they're gonna be a lot of developers, and it's not just oh, now I hear good things and I want to jump on the bandwagon a lot of developers. It's like now I have one and and taught you. Talk to developers and some of them are happy to just say sure, whatever, if my app Runs on the vision probe, that's great. But so many of them. What they say is I cannot Let people run my software on hardware, I haven't tested it on right, and now we're gonna see that. We're gonna see people who are actually able to write vision pro apps. There will be an interesting second wave that happens now that it's a real product. That just couldn't have happened until it shipped.

1:30:12 - Leo Laporte
When rich puts BB added on vision pro, then maybe I'll buy, hey hey, max screen sharing.

1:30:18 - Jason Snell
I was working in BB edit on the vision pro this week.

1:30:23 - Andy Ihnatko
I've waited my whole life to do grep and regular expressions.

1:30:30 - Leo Laporte
Text clear. I mean it's not. You're not getting eye fatigue from using Editing text on this thing.

1:30:37 - Jason Snell
Oh, no, no, it's actually. I mean, it's not as good on the Mac as it is using a like. I was writing my Review earlier today and I was using an iPad app for that, because the text is clearer, the scaling is better in the iPad app, but on the you can absolutely do it, even with Max screen sharing.

1:30:52 - Leo Laporte
You can, you can do it and it and if you're doing it natively, I Presume there's a note tap or something like that, right?

1:30:59 - Jason Snell
Oh sure, yeah, you can use something like that. Like I said, I'm I am abusing an iPad app which is just as good and it works. I mean, literally, you can scroll and you can tap where you're looking to set. The insertion point works great with a Bluetooth keyboard and, yeah, if you stare at the cursor and and bring your fingers together, you can actually move that cursor somewhere else. And let go, it's a little.

1:31:20 - Leo Laporte
This is one of the reasons I didn't. I don't use an iPad as my main computer. It's just a little hair more difficult and I feel like it'd be a little bit like that in the VP, like it's like just a little too difficult.

1:31:34 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I think there are a lot of similarities. Honestly, I can, I can predict now that, just as we had all those people and I was sort of one of them who are like let's push, put this thing all the way to the edge and say, can I do my work on my iPad and just use an iPad, that is totally gonna happen with Vision Pro, yeah, and we're gonna have to see. But I think for most people, honestly, I think the killer app on this thing might really be. It connects to your Mac, because it means that you can take a little like MacBook Air and put a big screen up in front of you anywhere you go.

1:32:04 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, and it runs all the Actually would probably be pretty nice in that thing, come to think of it?

1:32:09 - Alex Lindsay
I wish it would.

1:32:10 - Jason Snell
I think it'll only do one Mac at a time, which, yes, I only one and only one screen at a time, although I heard a rumor today that somebody said that Ben Thompson said I was it. It was Ben Thompson.

1:32:20 - Leo Laporte
He'd heard that they're they're gonna do that there are people inside Apple who have multiple screens. Yeah, so there you go, it's happening, people.

1:32:28 - Andy Ihnatko
It's happening Again. It's following the same, the the same runway as iPhone where here's what. Here's what we can deliver right now. Of Course we're gonna have multiple screens eventually. Of course we're gonna have eye tracking of the avatars eventually. Maybe we might even let you use a Bluetooth mouse eventually. But we got to make sure that whatever we ship today that is not labeled beta works really really well. Start small, built up from there. Yeah, it's been a great game plan for Apple forever and it's gonna continue.

1:32:55 - Leo Laporte
And tea and discord says a you scrivener to write on the vision pro and it works great. Vision mad Name checks out, says blink terminal also works. So yeah, and I imagine my e-max. It worked just fine on my Mac. What do you call that when you put your Mac screen on your vision pros? Or is there a phrase, a term?

1:33:19 - Jason Snell
it's Virtual Mac screen sharing. Mac screen sharing, I think, is what they call it, but that's not did that, but okay, it's gonna be more than that.

1:33:30 - Alex Lindsay
I think that that's actually what they called it, william says he worked.

1:33:33 - Leo Laporte
They did some pixelmator pro work. That's, of course, a iPad app on it. I think it'd be interesting. Do you think you could do photo editing, photo?

1:33:42 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah yeah, it would be useful for that. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's again. It just depends on your interface and whether you like, for instance, or some people are using a Wacom tablet or want to have a pen or something like that. That stuff isn't. That's not there yet, oh yeah.

1:33:56 - Leo Laporte
I mean, actually, the iPad is great, I don't know, why I quit is actually a nice Combination and I've got your answer.

1:34:02 - Jason Snell
They call it MVD, the Mac virtual display.

1:34:06 - Leo Laporte
Okay what they call it, that's MVD Okay fine and VD and. Vd and we're gonna take a little break. Believe it or not, there is so much Apple news this week.

1:34:19 - Alex Lindsay
We will get finally.

1:34:20 - Leo Laporte
Just get started.

1:34:21 - Andy Ihnatko
No, no, no, no. The vision pro stuff is out of the way. We could finally talk about financials. Let's talk about money money, money, money, money.

1:34:28 - Leo Laporte
Color graphs coming up. Next I'm Mac break weekly. Right now I want to talk about croissants. Oh, the best when you love a Freshly baked croissant every morning, out of your oven, delicious and ready to go. I Got the answer for you wild grain. Mac break weekly is brought to you by wild grain.

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1:36:56 - Jason Snell
Yeah, quarter pretty good, so second best quarter ever, wow, but their best quarter was two years ago, so it's up slightly. Basically, apple is a huge money-making machine. Yeah, it's doing okay. But if you are an investor and you want to see growth, the question is, where will the growth come?

1:37:13 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, what's the next thing right?

1:37:15 - Jason Snell
a very slowly growing, incredibly profitable company. So your stocks gonna go up because they're doing stock buybacks and they're gonna give you a dividend. But this was okay. I mean they caution. The next quarter is gonna be down a little bit. This is the iPhone quarter.

1:37:29 - Leo Laporte
So that's why I phone is 58% of revenue.

1:37:32 - Jason Snell
Yeah, Still around 50 but it is. The new iPhone came out and it sold pretty well. They were. They were a little soft in China but they said that in most regions they were, you know, four of the top five or five of the top six or the top five or six in in most regions among Phones for this this quarter, the iPad. So the iPad didn't do that well If you think about it's year over year it went down a lot. I look at this chart and say they didn't release a new iPad the whole year.

They sold seven billion dollars in stale iPads. Yeah, it's actually not bad there was no new iPad all year. The the newest iPad that somebody bought in that quarter Was nine or like ten months old and they still sold seven billion of them, and so that's pretty good as a like baseline of where the iPad is as a product, because there was nobody who was motivated to buy one Because there was a new model Down.

1:38:30 - Leo Laporte
But I mean it might be next month criticizing that number might be next month in fact, and Min Chi quo In I hope he's right in his latest notes says they're not gonna be as expensive as others have reported There've been. You know, I mean it's with OLED screens and everything these might be very expensive. He says no, no, there may be a $500. What would he say? $500 increase for the OLED, or no, wasn't even that much. Anyway, let's hope he's right. Iphone revenue looked very solid. That was the. Again it's. It's that quarter. Every time you get your your, what is it? Q1 results. That's the iPhone quarter.

1:39:07 - Jason Snell
Yeah, and I always hear people say oh, apples, you know, I hear that Apple sales are going down and it's like no, no, that, when you get so much financial reporting, is about growth, because that's what the Wall Street, you know what, that's what investors care about. But iPhone sales they had one bigger iPhone quarter but you know iPhone sales of almost 70 billion. It's doing, it's doing fine.

1:39:29 - Andy Ihnatko
Except for China. Except for China, yeah, they say they. As a matter of fact, there's the second time that they mentioned, like you mentioned, that he was saying oh, it's for is four out of the top five smartphones and XYZ a, aa, double B I said, and in China we had four of the top six smartphone models in China Remember, this was also the quarter that the Chinese government told everybody who works for the Chinese government, which is a lot of people, that they could not use an iPhone.

So but also the Q&A reveals that the analysts are really, really concerned about, or, excuse me, interested in growth in China, because they got a lot of questions and a lot of follow-ups about right with the during a China one Mac you pulled actually pulled out. This is one of the few places I'm quoting a question here, one of the few which China was one of the few places I was down double digits while everything else was growing, and this is a story that's been going on at least for a year.

1:40:23 - Alex Lindsay
Oh, and you know I'm 13% every year and just beyond what Chinese citizens are buying. It's. China's got a lot of headwinds, it's not gonna just yeah they're economy line other phones. I mean ever grand just is is being disassembled for parts, right? You know like that's one of their, you know, so it's there. They have a lot of. There's a lot of things I'll probably bring that, continue to bring that down over time, right services huge and growing 23% now, and that is a steady trend line.

1:40:54 - Leo Laporte
I don't know how much of that comes from Google, but still it's it's. You know, mostly it's the app store and that's why Apple is defending the app store so Fervently in the well, I think services also include all of their other.

1:41:05 - Alex Lindsay
I mean everything that you pay a subscription for Apple, so it does.

1:41:09 - Jason Snell
Plus Google fees, but I think the Google and Cut are probably that the biggest drivers there but it keeps going up like there's no point in, it's not seasonal. I don't even do my little seasonal trend line anymore because like it just goes up solid and it's a, it's a big part of their business now for sure now Wearables, is that gonna?

be in, yeah, but keep in mind that even if they sell everyone that they make which we think that they probably will that's gonna be less than a billion dollars To a line that's already a 12 billion for this quarter and, you know, 8.3 a couple quarters ago. So wearables home accessories is in the doldrums. It's been down year over year a lot. Lately, after a real Serious rise, they sort of have peaked and are going down a little bit. I I try to explain why this is. I think about it.

The best I can come up with is one the Apple Watch has been pretty static. They're not not a lot of changes in the Apple Watch product line, especially this year. The AirPods line, also fairly static. There have been some updates, but not a lot of them. And then in in home, like the home pods do exist, but again not really driving a lot of revenue. And and so in wearable home and accessories, you end up with, you know, much more respectable number than it ever used to be.

But there the growth has Disappeared and if I were an analyst I would probably be asking Apple what is your strategy in this category? Because to grow it, because you've obviously done some great work to make it the size it is thanks to AirPods and thanks to the Apple Watch, and vision pro might get there, but I can't see it really being appreciable for the next few years. So is there a new round of AirPods? Is there something that's gonna be really exciting for Apple Watch that's gonna drive people? Are there new products in the home that you're gonna do, because right now it's just sort of like stalled?

1:43:03 - Andy Ihnatko
There's something that I thought about like last month. Last month, when Samsung announced that there are these, previewed their Samsung ring. I wonder why Apple hasn't considered a ring wearable because that, as, especially at CES, a lot of people are getting into that, not even not just like the, the ratty sort of like hey, here's a ring that's $80. It does nothing, but we is becoming more and more sophisticated. Samsung's getting into it. It seems like something that Apple could do, given that they could price something that is cheaper than the Apple Watch would Invite into the Apple ecosystem, could use their sensor technology, could use their AI health technology, it seemed, and also style and fashion, just like the watch, it seems. It was the first time that I started to wonder why is Apple not getting into this?

1:43:47 - Leo Laporte
I'll tell you why natural fit, okay, because I've had an aura ring for years. They're not accurate and I think Apple is probably working hard on it. I think you're right. It'd be a great product. I'd what I mean that one of the problems with all the rings that are out there and I've tried them all is they don't look great Because they're plastic either. Metal would be nice, you know, make a good-looking ring. Apple could do it, but I think they're they've got. They've got to lick the problem of it being reliably. Probably, you know, it's your finger and, and one would think I mean for certain things, I think the fingers probably better for pulse, but there for other things is not so great. So I think Apple's probably concerned with that.

1:44:28 - Alex Lindsay
I would guess I think that's also what is driving people to buy things. So for a lot of us, when we watch the keynote for iPhone, for the iPhone, we're just waiting for them to get to the camera, the cameras. At the end we're all waiting. I look, okay, what's what's new in the camera? Because that's what. That's what I think a vast majority people make a decision about related to what they're why there's. I Mean all the other stuff is like yeah, yeah, but people who are buying every year or every other year are generally looking at a camera improvement to make a decision.

And then that doesn't really exist for the Apple TV, for the I mean my Apple TV. I finally upgraded it a while ago. I hate the new controllers, so I'm just kind of like. You know it's the did the same thing it did before. It's slightly snappier, but I didn't really feel like I. Now I have a controller I don't like and so the so I went back to the old controller from the old Apple TV with the new Apple TV and then it's fine. And then and the In the watch, I'm kind of like it does timers and it tells me the time and I have some things that I can do and it, and I thought that the ultra for me was I like to hike around and so I'm mid mapping things and so on, so forth, and I found that to be fairly useful.

But I think that now I had, now that I have the ultra one, will I buy another Watch three, four? Yeah, you know, like you know, at least you know like I don't know what I would what they would put in a Watch that would get me excited about doing it.

Maybe glucose, like glucose monitoring, would probably. Oh yeah, you know, do it oh absolutely.

1:45:52 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, maybe sleep would be the reason you'd get it, but nowadays everybody's got sleep monitoring and you know at least I do- Like everything, but also Victoria song over the verge had a nice piece round up about a lot of these things and was making a good point. I've made up a good point that Rings are really have been really good for her, for, excuse me, in her, in her professional estimation, rings are been very, very good, focused on women's health specifically, and that's that's an area that gave me positive.

1:46:19 - Leo Laporte
Okay, that's something that's not on my radar, so I don't know. Yeah, yeah, if you could use them for ovulation and so forth, I guess it would be good for temperature.

1:46:28 - Alex Lindsay
I don't. I think women are more likely to wear rings than men too.

1:46:31 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, like you know, like I don't think, I know, you know, I don't, I mean I see or is everywhere, and you can kind of tell if it's an aura, because they want you to wear it on your index finger or, secondly, maybe your middle finger, but they but that's really not the ring finger. And so If you see people wearing a shiny ring or a black matte ring on their index finger, that's usually an aura. Anyway, profit 20, 33.9 billion dollars that's in just three months. Boys and girls, that's, that's good money.

1:47:02 - Jason Snell
That's why they got all the money second best quarter. They can afford to, just, you know, build a car if they want, or make a vision pro happen in 2024.

1:47:10 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, oh, actually that I'm sorry. The 33 nine was your year, the entire year. No, that was Q1. It was one quarter, only one quarter.

1:47:20 - Jason Snell
The holiday quarter. I'll grant you which is their most profitable and biggest quarter, but still Louise they make. They generate an enormous amount of profit and then they buy back stock which increases the stock price, and they it's all part of their, their plan and their margins 45.9% margin. Includes in there a product margin that's less than that, because the services margin is something like 75% or something right, anyway, good, good quarter for Apple.

1:47:47 - Leo Laporte
So and good graphs from six colors out of business?

1:47:54 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I.

It's a weird time for them because they they this happened a few years ago and now it's happening again. Where you put up, if you're, if you're judged by your year over your growth, which Wall Street judges you on, yeah, and you set, like you know about you, blow out year, which they did around the pandemic. Right, they blew it out because everybody bought new Macs, everybody bought new iPads, the iPhone did a design refresh, people bought new iPhones just these huge numbers and they are gonna hold on to most of that growth. Right, they're. They're mostly like they're down a little since then, but since last year when they were down a little, now they're kind of flat and so, on one level, that's brilliant because they took the business to a whole new level and most of that stayed and that means that's why they're so profitable.

But the other part of this is growth and they've got some threats in China and they've sold a lot of iPhones, so that that is sort of a saturated market. They also saturated the Mac and the iPad during the pandemic and so you envision pro, while it's now here and will be a growth area for them by you know the very definition, because they're starting from nothing is gonna be a slow build. So that is gonna be some of the institutional pressure. The shareholder pressure on Apple is gonna be where's your next big growth spurt coming from? And I don't know what their answer is gonna be. They're apparently growing really well in developing countries, you know, in the countries that are not, where they're already saturated.

1:49:24 - Leo Laporte
Obviously there's a lot more growth there. India is gonna be the next big market problem. India, latin America is doing really well for them.

1:49:30 - Ray Maxwell
I mean there are lots of places where they're doing very well.

1:49:32 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, they called out Malaysia, mexico, the Philippines, poland and Turkey as well. December quarter records in India, indonesia, Saudi Arabia and Chile.

1:49:38 - Jason Snell
That was like almost like the second or third paragraph of these prepared statements, but that doesn't challenge for them because they're in this unique place where they're one of the world's most valuable companies and one of the world's most profitable companies and, let's face it, one of the world's most powerful companies. But their investors are gonna be like. It's like that thing when we talked about Facebook not having a usable growth trajectory because they will run out of human beings on planet Earth. It's a little like that with Apple, which they are so successful now that you have to say, well, now, what Right? Like what do you do now? Because growth is all that the investors want.

1:50:13 - Leo Laporte
I got another graph. This is from Wired Magazine in the California Department of Motor Vehicles. Did I call it California, california?

1:50:21 - Jason Snell
That was a Freudian slip. Yeah, I mean you could be on Fox News tomorrow. We might be like that.

1:50:26 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, exactly California. The number of miles driven by the Apple Car quadrupled in 2023. That is a hockey stick. Right there they're driving these autonomous vehicles like crazy. That sounds to me like Apple's taking this very seriously and working hard to get this ready, even though German said they're not doing level four. They're not even doing level three, they're aiming at two plus.

1:50:53 - Jason Snell
That makes me believe they might actually ship a car right.

1:50:56 - Leo Laporte
Because it's attainable in a way that the others want. Why are they driving so many autonomous miles?

1:51:01 - Jason Snell
Well, I mean, I think they want to have, you know, as many autonomous features as possible. That's almost table stakes at this point. But you want to talk about I mean, talk about those charts. You want to talk about a way that you could really goose the revenue is sell some $100,000 cars. That would be because a $100,000 car and like a $3,500 headset, you don't even need that much volume. And, let's face it, apple would probably have a decent volume. You would, that's appreciable, to the top line at least, if you're selling $100,000 cars, yeah.

1:51:33 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, I mean GM. Self-driving is really starting to fade out. I mean GM. I think there was a report actually from GM saying that they believe that they've set themselves back by several years now with their failure in San Francisco with the cruise taxi program. Google is doing quote well unquote, but they're only doing quote well unquote in the sense that they're showing that it can be done with a lot of support and putting a lot of money into it to make sure that you map every city specifically, city by city, and that's starting to look like technology. And current technology is saying that creating a generic driver app and sensor array that will work wherever you drop it in is nearly a pipe dream at this point.

1:52:14 - Alex Lindsay
And I think that the thing is there's all or nothing thing like it. You have to be able to go to your house and be able to drive away and find its way there. When the reality is is most of the time when I want self-driving to work, this gets into. People want to take the Google, wants to take the driver, they want to take the steering wheel away. Right, and just have it.

Be nothing there and you're just gonna, we're gonna take you somewhere, which means you have to figure out how to make it work in windy roads and streets and with pedestrians and everything else, whereas where most of us want this to work is on the highway, like when we're stuck in traffic.

And so if you focused on the highways, if you took the 101 and put the extra sense, if the company's paid for extra sensors going down the highway and all kinds of extra stuff added to the data and visuals that help the cars and everything else, and just said, this only works on the highway a lot of people it would change more people's lives, more you know, faster than all of the other, than dealing with all these pedestrians and all these little things and everything else, because it would you know, but you need to give it the data and you could do that. But when I'm sitting in traffic, that's when I want it to take over. When I'm driving down the five to LA, that's when I want it to take over. I don't really need it to take over in the streets.

1:53:23 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, 100%. Get me on the highway, get me off the highway, keep me in my lane when there's when there's a lot of traffic, when I want to do a lane change, I will simply tell you at some, when it's safe to do a lane change, please do this. Lane change and emergency evasion, like when you're fast, when you can work faster than I can. I mean, that's the only I still. It's a conversation we've been having for years.

I still don't know what Apple could really bring to it If, particularly if, they're lending themselves to the level two, which I, or two plus, which I think is very, very smart. But a lot of systems are doing that very, very well right now. Yes, dashboards okay, that's kind of cool, but that's not. I don't see how that's really flipping the script and making it valuable enough to say, yes, we're going to create an entire, an entire new division that can now not just put these on the road but also maintain them, can also console them, can also and I'm not saying that's a foolish thing, I'm just saying that I'm not at the point right now where I understand where that actually works for Apple. So we'll find out.

1:54:26 - Leo Laporte
Rare that Apple puts out a press release announcing an update to an operating system, in this case at least a point update. They have to because March is the deadline for the EU's Digital Markets Act. So they have said by March, by next month, ios 17.4, and that will split the app store and all of those changes.

1:54:47 - Alex Lindsay
They're not happy about it.

1:54:48 - Leo Laporte
In the meantime, on March 6th, yeah, they are not happy about it. They say the EU's making them adopt a less intuitive user experience and new risks. But we're going to do it. Okay, fine, 17.4 will be out in March. Alternative marketplaces, new options there, new frameworks and APIs for creating alternative marketplaces, new frameworks and APIs for alternative browser engines. And then and I like this an interoperability request form. You can ask sure, go ahead, you can ask that's coming out in March.

Oh, here's the OLED story. I actually did want to give it more detail. For context, a previous report, also from supply chain, said that Apple is targeting a $1,500 starting price for the 11-inch iPad Pro with OLED, $1,800 for the 13-inch. Today's Mingchi or no, it wasn't Mingchi quote, it was Digitimes, maybe that's a little less reliable source, I don't know Says that the increases will not be as dramatic as previously rumored. According to unnamed sources in the report, both the 11-inch and 13-inch iPad Pro models with OLED will be $160 more expensive. You know it's not unusual that Apple let speculation go run rampant about pricing and then supply I remember this with the original iPad Surprises everyone with a much more reasonable price. I hope that's the case. I'd pay $160 more for OLED. I sure would.

Here's a scary story tweeted from Brett Shavers, who fell off a cliff, swam with sharks, dined with hint men. This is his ex-edder ex-idder what do you call it? His ex-bio? He says just peer review to forensic analysis in a case. This is scary. The suspect mailed a package with a hidden Apple air tag in it to a victim's old home address. The package was forwarded to her new and formerly safe address. This might be a good time to warm domestic violence victims of unexpected mail. There's a use for air tags. I didn't think about Apple. Probably didn't either. That's sad.

I think we are ready to take another break and get your picks of the week far, far up, if you would. We are having some fun. Jason Snell, andy and Ako. Alex Lindsey our show today brought to you by Rocket Money. If I asked you how many subscriptions you know monthly payouts you have, would you be able to list them and would you know how much it's costing you? I think I would have said yeah, I know that I could tell you and started enumerating them. But when I started using Rocket Money and this was a couple of years ago it blew me away and, by the way, it has since saved me hundreds, probably thousands of dollars.

Rocket Money is a personal finance app, does a lot of things. You can monitor your spending, lower your bills, budgeting it's great for that but it also finds and cancels unwanted subscriptions. I'm not surprised. Rocket Money now has more than five million users, has saved its members an average of $720 a year, with more than $500 million half a billion dollars in canceled subscriptions. With Rocket Money, you see all your subscriptions in one place and if you see something you don't want, you can cancel it with a tap. You don't even have to get on the phone with customer service. They do it for you. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. This little program will save you a bunch. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions. Go to rocketmoneycom slash macbreakrocketmoneycom slash macbreak. Even after I canceled all those subscriptions, I keep it running and it's not at all unusual for me to go. What's that charge? And go and look and have them cancel it. It's great. Rocketmoneycom slash macbreak. Alex Lindsey, do you have a pick of the week? I know you do. You mentioned it. Oh, we also have an empty seat.

1:59:16 - Andy Ihnatko
Alex is virtual right now.

1:59:18 - Leo Laporte
Very virtual, alex wandered off and he can't find his settings screen. It's gone missing. How about I'll start with you, jason Snell?

1:59:28 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I mentioned Juno by Christian Sealy, which is a really great Vision Pro app that people who've got a Vision Pro should buy. It's $5. I think it's worth it. It will give you YouTube, as it was meant to be seen, until there's a YouTube app whenever that happens. So I think that Christian has done a really good job. It's a nice app. It is a good Vision Pro-E connection to the YouTube web interface. He did a good job and then I'll throw in a bonus.

Another thing for Vision Pro, and also a pick here a little more than a year ago by Andy, which is Simon Stormring's Roonstone, which is a really, really, really nice text editor that knows a lot of different formats, including Markdown, which I write in, and he, even though he's in Denmark and I believe and has not used a Vision Pro yet, that app is running natively on the Vision Pro as a text editor and it looks really good. He did a good job with that. So those are a couple of things to try if you have a Vision Pro and, honestly, roonstone worth a download regardless. It's a really nice text editor and he's open sourced it, so I think a lot of other apps are using it as a text editor now, which is also pretty nice.

2:00:39 - Leo Laporte
You wouldn't use the Vision Pro on-screen keyboard.

2:00:44 - Jason Snell
No, number one accessory for the Vision Pro is a Bluetooth keyboard. I would say, like the $99 Apple Magic Keyboard is a good buy.

2:00:53 - Leo Laporte
Any Bluetooth keyboard will work, though, right.

2:00:56 - Jason Snell
I believe any.

2:00:56 - Leo Laporte
Bluetooth keyboard will work. Yeah, when Micah did our unboxing he's working on our full review of the Vision Pro, by the way, but there's a great video of his unboxing. And, yeah, we just hooked up a regular you know lying around Bluetooth keyboard. It worked fine.

2:01:11 - Jason Snell
Yeah, yeah, so that you get a Bluetooth keyboard because the text input options are poor For more than just a few letters. You don't want to I type you don't want to try to mash a screen, a keyboard, that's not there. That's really disturbing. So something better.

2:01:28 - Leo Laporte
Andy also has a Vision Pro pick.

2:01:31 - Andy Ihnatko
Only because I thought it was interesting. This is the first already we've seen like a GitHub project to make this Vision Pro do something that Apple didn't intend or prove of or release. Some people were surprised that the screen sharing you can't on the Mac it's all or nothing. It's basically virtualized at a 4K screen. You can't just simply take a Mac window and turn it into its own little display. So Sagarja on GitHub has produced something called Ensemble that is already mature enough that it's been forced to change its name from Maccast, but it is described as a pre-alpha project quote really more of a demo at this point. But the project is to like be able to take individual Mac windows and turn them into separate virtual displays in the Vision Pro.

I'm really keen to. I'm following this project, not because I will own a Vision Pro at any point where this will be relevant in the next six to eight months, but because I'm curious to see like how much freedom does do developers have to do something that is not technically supposed to be done? I don't think he's jailbreaking anything as sophisticated as that, but I wonder how much freedom there is to do something that is maybe out of the sandbox a little bit, or, excuse me, a lot of the conceptual sandbox a little bit. And also it's a feature that a lot of people surprised by I'm not. I personally again, not as a speaking, as a non-user it seems to make sense to keep all of your Mac window desktop environment into one confined space, but I'm keen to see how this turns out.

2:03:09 - Leo Laporte
There's your, there's your pick, andy and Ako. And now I go oh, we're all, we're all in the virtual world. I go over to Andy and Ako Remember.

2:03:21 - Jason Snell
I'm the only one you can trust in the world because, I'm the only one that'll let you see my true face, just like the Joker at the beginning, at the end of the Tim Burton movie.

2:03:29 - Andy Ihnatko
I've roofed my makeup. What about the bat?

2:03:34 - Leo Laporte
Mr Alex Lindsey, what's your pick of the week?

2:03:38 - Alex Lindsay
So, as I mentioned before, you know the my pick of the week is jigspace, and I think that because it really points towards something that I think is going to be a very important vertical, which is explaining how objects work, or explaining how to do things. Imagine, when I look at this, I think more of a Kia and actually using all the screws and not swearing nearly half as much. So if I cut to this, this is you'll see my messy desk because I'm gonna show you what it looks like. So if we cut to this, this is what my space looks like, and some of these screens are real and then the other ones are not, anyway, so if I click on this and I say, okay, I'm gonna bring in my solenoid and I'm gonna have let's see here. So what it's doing is bringing this in and it's a little solenoid joint. I have to do this in a weird, the one with the problem with it, that's, the problem with the battery.

2:04:32 - Leo Laporte
I just dropped my battery too, yeah, exactly the one thing.

2:04:36 - Alex Lindsay
That's the one thing that I will say. That's problematic with it is it always wants to go on the floor, like it always wants to attach the floor and doesn't want to do it anyway. So here it is. Let me cut to this, but here it is. So this is an object and if I take my hands and I can move it up, oh, that's cool, and I can rotate it around like this. So that's fine, except that it's got these little.

If you look up to what I'm looking at here, I can say, okay, go to the next step. So now it has. Okay, now it's gonna flip and it's gonna show me click on it again. You can see, take these screws out. This is how to disassemble and fix this. Like it pops back open and I can pop it open. So now I see all the innards. And oh, by the way, if I'm confused, I can grab onto one of these things and just kind of pick it up and move it, set it over there. I can grab some of this, get that out of the way you know, move these over. So if I wanna look at something, I can just kind of look at it here in the way that I have it here Now, if I go to the next step, it's gonna automatically fix that. Let's see, here I have now put into a oh, it asks me for my new collaboration. No, I don't wanna do collaboration, all right. So I don't wanna collaborate with anybody, all right.

2:05:56 - Andy Ihnatko
So now I got that, that's why I have a Vision Pro A story of my life. I wanna see what's up with it.

2:06:01 - Alex Lindsay
But here's some of the cool. It's eventually gonna have collaboration and what you have here is now, as I look at this here. Here's one of the cool things is it has this annotation, and so when I annotate, it took me a second to get my head around it. I can go take a look at this.

2:06:18 - Leo Laporte
Is that your hand? That's my hand, the representation of your hand. I'm taking my hand.

2:06:23 - Alex Lindsay
That's my hand. It's not a representation, it's my hand, oh, it's your hand. And so I can sit there and circle this and say, hey, there's gonna be stuff coming out of here and put an arrow up here. Now what's interesting is that's in 3D, Like you see that mark, like I am annotating something in a 3D model. That's there, right. So I can circle things like this and it's actually going around it, so you can see that the occlusion there.

it's like it's there, right, and so did I see it I lost my video Lost my video Did your video fell on the floor, yeah exactly. It's in the garage. See here, let me turn this on. It's interesting.

2:07:07 - Andy Ihnatko
In the meantime, jason, can you like open your go ahead I hit, no shoot.

2:07:13 - Alex Lindsay
Hold on, let me did.

2:07:21 - Jason Snell
Troubleshooting live on the air.

2:07:23 - Home Theater Geeks
Yeah, exactly this is the I don't want. It's the tech guy.

2:07:26 - Jason Snell
Sir, turn your radio down. Turn your radio down.

2:07:29 - Andy Ihnatko
It's like we're really, it's like we really are in a completely icky black hallway.

2:07:33 - Alex Lindsay
What's interesting is it's not the headset that went sideways, it was the Apple TV delivery to the switcher, so I'm not sure exactly what happened there. So anyway, so we'll have to figure that out. Anyway, the point is is that it is a. It allows you to. It allows you to really look at, step by step, how to get something done, break something out. If anyone's ever tried to put together again a lot of these desks that you get from IKEA or the or the you know, or desks you get on Amazon or many, many other things, or just try to fix something, it's very intricate and you can set it up. And what's interesting about Jigspace is what they did is they said bring in your 3D model and you can build the step by step, steps in there, so everything's rotating around. So you just, I think, of the construction of it.

That's been the big problem. We've always been able to build the models, but how do we build tutorials on how to use those models and do it in an intelligent way? And they seem to be the furthest along of all the ones that I've seen so far, and we have been talking about this for 30 years Like, how do you train people with 3D and interactive and everything else, and it is. Jigspace is the furthest, and they've been around for a while. This isn't like they already had an app that did this. It just now works in vision, and so I think that it's the most impressive one that I've seen so far in this area, and I think that we're gonna see a lot of people building things about how to fix things, how to change your filters, how to work on your engines, how to like, as this model gets bigger. I mean, right now it's gonna be tiny, and so it'll be probably high end tools and so on and so forth, but I think it's gonna become a pretty big market.

2:09:08 - Andy Ihnatko
That's why the $3,500 price didn't really throw me when it was first announced, Cause that's I mean, as you know, that's what like people who are buying these for industrial uses, for industrial training, for assembly line training, for assembly product training, they won't even blink at 3,500 bucks.

2:09:21 - Alex Lindsay
Well, and I think, I do think you're gonna end up with You're right, it's gonna get better for like IKEA stuff. And I think that IKEA eventually will release a product. Ikea or Home Depot, or all of them will release products that have most of these things. You know, these are three animations of how these all they already have all the models, like they have a catavonable of everything that they have.

So it's just a matter of putting them into the environment and maybe, you know, creating it. And I think that one thing I haven't done yet, which I think will come up, is you know, you'll see this in Amazon, probably built in. Amazon already has these previews that you can do with your phone. I imagine that that'll be something that we can do pretty quickly with this and again, this type of thing where I'm gonna show you how the product works, I'm gonna show you how to put together the product, I'm gonna show you how to fix the product.

2:10:04 - Andy Ihnatko
These are all things that I think are gonna be a big oh yeah, Suthabase already has like on high on all their auctions. Like, in addition to, here's a high, super high resolution scan of the pain that you can zoom all the way in on, but also here is like a view of we digitally created. Like here's what it looks like on a wall, with people standing in front of it looking at it, so you get an idea of what the presence of it is in a room. And for $3,500, a very exclusive piece of hardware. How long do we have to wait before? They're gonna say, by the way, if you wanna hang it in your room, in the space where you wanna put it, and it will reflect the lighting in the room and everything like that, they gotta have that going and there's some Wayfair and a couple others have some stuff that they've started that way.

2:10:49 - Alex Lindsay
They just haven't been very successful at like it's dorky, you know, like right now it's not, it hasn't made it to that level yet, but it's, I think. By the way, if someone wants to know what the technical issue was, I'm pretty sure that I moved my Apple TV just a little bit and knocked the HDMI cable out.

2:11:05 - Leo Laporte
That's a highly technical problem.

2:11:07 - Alex Lindsay
I'm glad you Very technical.

2:11:09 - Andy Ihnatko
Too many air molecules between the connector and the perceptible.

2:11:12 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, that's it. That's it. Uh, I know you're around here somewhere Over here, Leo over here.

2:11:21 - Andy Ihnatko
We're over here Over the break room fridge. I think you left the Zoom inside the fridge.

2:11:27 - Leo Laporte
Where did I put my settings? All right, there they are. I'm gonna put them over here. Put them over there. They're out of the way, out of sight, out of mind. Wow, that was a lot of fun, you guys. We probably should wrap this up, though, before that splitting headache. I'm getting good today, worse. Well, it is Micah's right. He's got a very big head. Is it tilted? It looks like it's tilted too. Anyway, thank you, Jason Snell6Colorscom. You and Mike Hurley, in your upgrade podcast, discover how to leap through or over the uncanny valley you might wanna. Did Mike get one too?

2:12:07 - Jason Snell
He did. He flew to New York City to get one. Wow, in fact, because he's not committed to the cause of podcast. What a man. Good for him, yes yes, we broke it down. That was a fun couple hours.

2:12:18 - Leo Laporte
Anything else you wanna talk about? How do you scroll up, by the way, or scroll down? I'm looking at my settings menu and I can't. I'm trying to air play this.

2:12:27 - Alex Lindsay
What do you do? You just pinch and.

2:12:30 - Jason Snell
Pinch and then move that pinch. Oh, oh, oh there it is.

2:12:35 - Leo Laporte
Is that remote devices? Is that air play? No, that's pairing with the Mac.

2:12:42 - Jason Snell
You look up to the top, see the little Firefly arrow thing. Oh, you look up.

2:12:46 - Leo Laporte
I should close this and look up to the top and see the Firefly.

2:12:52 - Jason Snell
Why are we shouting? And then you tap on control center Like that old guy?

2:12:58 - Leo Laporte
How do you do this? Oh, there's the Firefly.

2:13:01 - Andy Ihnatko
Is it on channel three?

2:13:04 - Leo Laporte
It's on channel three. Okay, forget it. I was gonna air play my view so you can see what I'm seeing.

2:13:10 - Andy Ihnatko
I'm not the only one who keeps thinking about all the times that Steve Jobs and Apple and trying to argue against windows with touchscreen. People don't wanna work while raising up their hands. No, they never wanna do that.

2:13:25 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay yeah. Well maybe Steve's right. I don't wanna do it.

2:13:29 - Alex Lindsay
The funny thing is that you'll start doing it with your hand up here, but you realize that it's just your eyes. So you really Like every time you I do it, so you can see me doing it for the show, but I just have my hand on my desk all the time and I'm just tapping things because it's your eyes that are driving everything.

2:13:43 - Andy Ihnatko
It feels like it's a mouse, isn't it? Our tap is always a click moving. The period is always a move.

2:13:48 - Leo Laporte
Where is the control center, Jason?

2:13:51 - Jason Snell
You look up, you look up and bring down the little thing that you tap on, and then one of those three, four icons that shows up in the floater is control center. What little thing that you, you look up and a little magic thing, no you're right.

2:14:10 - Leo Laporte
Oh, there's a little oh, but I can't get it to stay there. I think you tap on that, it won't stay there. Okay, look at it Now. I just I don't have to actually touch it.

2:14:20 - Jason Snell
No, you have to tap on it with the two fingers together.

2:14:23 - Leo Laporte
Oh, I got it. Now I'm gonna do air play, air play, air play. Is it the little mountains?

2:14:30 - Jason Snell
No, you want the little two screens, Two screens.

2:14:36 - Leo Laporte
I don't see that thing. Where's the two screens?

2:14:39 - Jason Snell
No, you want control center. The third of the four is control center.

2:14:43 - Leo Laporte
Oh, there, oh, I see so, oh, don't touch that Tap on control center, there's control center, and now I touch the screens. Oh, I can just look at them and I can touch it. I can have my hand anywhere. Yes, the problem is it doesn't. You know. It's because it's not doing the eye tracking, because it's not mine.

2:15:03 - Jason Snell
And that's your mirror, my view. Yeah, which one should I go to? Evelina?

2:15:07 - Leo Laporte
air play one, air play two. Martha Air play one. Martha Sharon, Is that an?

2:15:13 - Jason Snell
air gun Sharon.

2:15:15 - Leo Laporte
Oh my God, hey, we did it. We did it together.

2:15:22 - Andy Ihnatko
I feel like this is like the movie Inception and like you three are in the dreamscape and I'm the one who's left behind to anchor the reality, to make sure we can pull you all out, just in case.

2:15:30 - Jason Snell
Martha, is the top still spinning?

2:15:32 - Leo Laporte
Well, it is Martha All right. Well, and how do I get rid of that thing? I just take it and put it somewhere right? Just leave it. Just leave it.

2:15:43 - Jason Snell
Or just press your. Press the digital crown, it goes away.

2:15:45 - Leo Laporte
Oh, it goes away Okay.

2:15:47 - Jason Snell
Yeah, that's the launcher. Oh, look at that.

2:15:49 - Leo Laporte
Hey, there's Jason Snell. Thank you, jason SixColorscom. Thank you, leo. Hey Andy, when are you gonna be on WGBH next?

2:15:58 - Andy Ihnatko
Not this week but the week after next. On 1230 on Thursday. Go to WGBHnewsorg. Sorry, do I have to go? If I want you to think I'm an avatar, do I have to go like this? And you can't?

2:16:12 - Leo Laporte
see like yeah, there you go, just the sides, there you go, block the sides. Alex Lindsey. Office Hoursnet Global. Is there a special Vision Pro content on Office Hours?

2:16:22 - Alex Lindsay
We just we spent this morning talking about it in detail, so a bunch of us were talking about it, and so the whole. There's a few if this wasn't enough, if you're not sick of it, there's a whole nother discussion that we had today.

2:16:34 - Leo Laporte
Office Hoursnet Global. And, of course, if you wanna hire this guy, see there. Oh, there's my hand.

2:16:38 - Jason Snell
Hey, hey hand, If you wanna have you really looked at your hand in virtual reality. Wow, man dude.

2:16:45 - Leo Laporte
So those are my real hands, those are your real hands. Okay, what is this reality? Hey, I see you guys, I see Johnny and. Sally. I see Punter Joe. I see Uncle Brett Hi, Uncle Brett. I see Denmos and Micah and Anthony and Dan. Hi everybody, I see you. I thank you for.

2:17:11 - Jason Snell
You're acknowledged the magic mirror.

2:17:16 - Andy Ihnatko
I wanna change my answer. This is exactly like when I was in college and I was the only one who was in the room who was not drunk, high or on mushrooms. It's like help me. Oh look, I see my hands.

2:17:28 - Leo Laporte
I see Jason.

2:17:29 - Andy Ihnatko
Whoa, yes, yes, you do Remember you're here. Don't panic, you're living organism on this planet. Try to put your hand on something that feels real to you and that will help you understand what is the.

2:17:45 - Leo Laporte
Thank you all for joining us. We do Mac Break Weekly 11 am Pacific on Tuesdays. That's 2 pm Eastern, 5. No, that's 2 pm Eastern and it is 1900 UTC. There we go. It's hard to do math with this on. I don't know if you've noticed that. Guys, you can watch us do it live. We stream it live on YouTube. When the show starts at youtubecom, slash twit, or after the fact, find it at twittv slash mbw on YouTube, on the Mac Break Weekly channel. Of course you could subscribe. Is there a podcast thing in here? No.

No, no, oh, look my hands. Thanks for joining us. Sorry, your hands. Now it's time to strap on the Vision Pro and get back to work, because break time is over. Bye-bye.

2:18:36 - Scott Wilkinson
Hey there, scott Wilkinson here. In case you hadn't heard, Home Theater Geeks is back. Each week I bring you the latest audio video news, tips and tricks to get the most out of your AV system, product reviews and more. You can enjoy Home Theater Geeks only if you're a member of Club Twit, which costs seven bucks a month, or you can subscribe to Home Theater Geeks by itself for only $2.99 a month. I hope you'll join me for a weekly dose of Home Theater Geek-a-tude.