MacBreak Weekly 873, Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for MacBreak Weekly. Andy Ihnatko's here. Alex Lindsay's here. And re just returned from the Apple Park campus. Mikah Sargent. Yes. We're gonna take a look at the Apple event yesterday. In fact, go deep on the Vision Pro. I'm a little more skeptical than these guys are. We'll also talk about new iOS, new Mac os, new TV os and watch os Plus all new Mac hardware. It's a jam-packed episode. Next on Mac Break. Weekly podcasts you love

Andy Ihnatko (00:00:33):
From people you trust. This is TWiT

Leo Laporte (00:00:40):
This is Mac Break Weekly episode 873 recorded Tuesday, June 6th, 2023. Bubble Lover Lay. This episode of Mac Break Weekly is brought to you by a c i Learning it. Skills are outdated in about 18 months, so you should stay ahead of the curve and futureproof your business' competitiveness with customizable entertaining training. Fill out the slash twi for more information on a free two week trial for your team and by ZipRecruiter. Did you know that hiring could take up to 11 weeks on average? Do you have that time to wait? Of course not. Stop waiting and start using ZipRecruiter. Ziprecruiter helps you find qualified candidates for all your roles fast. And right now you could try it free at break and buy Melissa more than 10,000 clients worldwide. Rely on Melissa for full spectrum data quality and ID verification software. Make sure your customer contact data is up to date. Get started today with 1000 records clean for free at It's time for Mac Break Weekly, the show we cover. The latest Apple News and old boy is there. Apple News. Alex Lindsay's here from Office and oh nine Hello, Alex. I think your drooling. Hello. Hello. I think he's drooled Is showing

Andy Ihnatko (00:02:08):
A little

Leo Laporte (00:02:08):
Excited. Wipe your mouth.

Andy Ihnatko (00:02:10):
It looks pretty good. <Laugh>. We had,

Alex Lindsay (00:02:12):
We, we we, I think we had over a hundred people in there watching yesterday. Yeah. For a second of year. And we were all, everyone was just, there was half of us were like, or, you know, half of the group was like, oh, it's never gonna work, and no one's ever gonna buy that. And the other half was like, I can't wait. Where do I order? Where do I put my credit card down? So it was a simple

Andy Ihnatko (00:02:28):
Crew. What crew?

Leo Laporte (00:02:30):
Mr. Andy Naco, W G B H Boston. He's, he's got his view

Andy Ihnatko (00:02:35):
Master. I'm a, I'm under, I'm under N D A, so there's some things I can't talk about, but as soon as like the, the,

Leo Laporte (00:02:43):
I can see his eyes. Yes. He's a little uncanny. Whoa.

Andy Ihnatko (00:02:46):
Exactly. You know, I've, I've, I've gone, I've gone for the hell Hound effect replaced. You can only see the whites of the eyes. <Laugh>. Yes. And that you tell me if I look like a dork in this. Didn't you, wouldn't you? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:02:58):
No, no.

Mikah Sargent (00:02:59):

Leo Laporte (00:03:01):
Maybe. Jason Snell is on assignment. He's he's down on the tennis courts at he's petting dinosaurs someplace campus Indeed. Petting dinosaurs. Indeed. But we're very pleased that Mikah came home. I did

Mikah Sargent (00:03:13):
<Laugh>, I ran home.

Leo Laporte (00:03:15):
Mikah Sargent sitting in the chair. Good to see you. You were there yesterday.

Mikah Sargent (00:03:19):
I was there yesterday. I did wanna say a nice gentleman. Oscar says, hello Leo and thank you for everything

Leo Laporte (00:03:28):
Oscar the Grouch.

Mikah Sargent (00:03:30):
I, I, if I can real quick, I was in the elevator about to make my way back to the car. And this guy from across the elevator suddenly does a double take. I see <laugh> and he points at me and then he goes, twit, that's all he said.

Leo Laporte (00:03:44):
<Laugh> twit.

Mikah Sargent (00:03:45):
And I said, yes. And he goes, what? Forgive me. Forgive. I said, Mikah. He goes, oh, Mikah Sargent. Oh, where's Leo <laugh>? And I said,

Leo Laporte (00:03:55):
Something people of Apple have been asking for the last 22 years.

Mikah Sargent (00:03:59):
And then he was very kind and said that he and his kids watched all the shows and they, oh, hi Oscar. Hello. It's

Leo Laporte (00:04:04):
Great to see you. I hope you're having fun. Down there at WW d c, the 2023 edition. Yo, we covered the keynote. I did it because we had planned to do it with you, and then you got a last minute invitation. But that gave me a great opportunity to bring people up onto the stage from the club too. How was that? It's great. It was the u it, you know, it was Kev Brewer <laugh>. It was Joe Esposito and Joe from Brooklyn. It was the Usuals. <Laugh>. But but it was really, I thought quite fun. I thought they did a very good job. And and what was interesting, I was talking with one of the producers afterwards and they said, he said they knew the rhythm of how we do these keynotes. Like when to talk Oh, really? When not to talk. It was really, it was, it was true. They watched a few. I think that's

Mikah Sargent (00:04:44):

Leo Laporte (00:04:45):
So if I were a smart cany podcaster, <laugh>, I would save one more thing for the end.

Mikah Sargent (00:04:55):
Okay. L as if it is one more thing.

Leo Laporte (00:04:56):
As if it were one more thing. Yeah. Just like Tim Cook did Uhhuh <affirmative>. We were sitting here. I'm sure you were Oh yeah. Saying, okay, you've gone an hour, you've gone an hour and a half. I

Mikah Sargent (00:05:05):
Think it was getting long.

Leo Laporte (00:05:07):
And actually at one point I was really wondering, maybe they're not gonna introduce this.

Mikah Sargent (00:05:12):
I, we had that feeling too sitting there thought maybe it just wasn't time. <Laugh> maybe something

Leo Laporte (00:05:18):
Wrong. Wow. I mean, that would be really a big deal given how much publicity, but they never said they were gonna introduce us.

Mikah Sargent (00:05:25):

Leo Laporte (00:05:26):
You know, bill, Tim's been saying a r a r a r for a while. So, you know, we know he was very interested in this. And

Mikah Sargent (00:05:32):
Before the event started there was a moment where both Craig Federighi and Tim Cook were on stage. And what gave me the hint that they were going to was right before the video that everybody else got to see from out in the world. Saul Tim Cook said something along the lines of, this is going to be an historic day. Ah, I love that. He used the an historic day

Leo Laporte (00:05:53):
And historic day.

Mikah Sargent (00:05:54):
Yes. And then that's whenever the video started, the part that was streamed live elsewhere. And so I thought Okay, definitely at the end. But then it just kept going and going. And I'm looking over at Jason Snell who's sitting next to me, and are they going? Yeah. They, they won more thing

Leo Laporte (00:06:09):
When they won more thing. They also won more thing the price. And this was the reaction <laugh> from from the crowd.

Mikah Sargent (00:06:16):
Oh, I'm glad someone captured that Vision. Crow

Speaker 5 (00:06:18):
Starts at 34 99

Mikah Sargent (00:06:21):
<Laugh>. It'll be available folks. That is not a, that is not a sound effect.

Leo Laporte (00:06:25):
That was a,

Andy Ihnatko (00:06:27):

Mikah Sargent (00:06:27):
That was the real sound in the audience.

Andy Ihnatko (00:06:30):
That, that was, that was so intense that I really, I honestly had to reach out to a friend of mine who was there and say, did that really happen? He said, yes. Yes it did. It was, if anything, it was even louder.

Leo Laporte (00:06:40):
<Laugh>, we didn't hear it. Of course. Because Apple, once again, even in, in the absence of Covid, because you were all there, you run masks, you didn't get special Apple.

Mikah Sargent (00:06:49):
Yeah. There weren't tests this time. Five

Leo Laporte (00:06:51):
Fly masks, no tests. Yeah. they still decided to do it recorded. So tell me how it happened to that. You're sitting in the press from what I could tell from your tweets and others, you were kind of in the back.

Mikah Sargent (00:07:01):
Yeah. So this time, because there were developers there, they got the front seats. Yeah. And then there was a small row of some of the blessed Apple employees who got to be there because their teams were kind of featured. And then right behind that row was the press. And so we were near the back, but it also was, it kind of gave the press the opportunity to be in the shade Shade <laugh>. So we were sort of comfortably sitting, although right where we were, it was with the sun. But anyway, you're sitting there and you're looking up at the stage and everything's getting ready. They're playing that music. You can see the huge screen. And what they did in the past and what they did again this year is Tim Cook Tim Cook took the stage and talked briefly and he was saying he was

Leo Laporte (00:07:43):
Wearing a light blue shirt. And I noticed that Oh yeah, because there was a different shirt in the video. Yes. He did not attempt to match his

Mikah Sargent (00:07:49):
After. Yeah. There was no matching there, <laugh>. And, you know, they talked for a little bit. Craig said a few things and sort of joked about the presentation and then it kicked off. There was no after with that. As soon as it was over then we all kind of looked towards our press contacts. The, our sort of PR people were off to the side and said, where do we go next? And then they shuffled us off from there. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:08:12):
Alex, you were really you said I was, I I frankly was surprised cuz I completely disagree with you. You said that they're never gonna do a live perf performance again. That this is, this is, you know, so good. And I grant you, I mean, they got a lot of information into two hours and six minutes, but

Alex Lindsay (00:08:32):
They're never gonna do a live event again.

Leo Laporte (00:08:33):
Yeah. I think that's really a shame because I think you really, I feel like you really lose. I'm so glad. Well, yeah. You like to live in a bubble. I guess I'd miss <laugh> because you don't go out much. It's

Alex Lindsay (00:08:43):
No, but people keep on saying, I don't understand why the energy, you know, Google and Microsoft have lost so much energy in their events. It's not that they've lost energy. It's that apples is so much tighter with so much more data and so much, it's so much more visual interest that when you go back to a stage, it's like, it's like going from the highway to a gravel. You know? I think

Leo Laporte (00:09:05):
You could do a hybrid where you had people, I wanna see the executives. I wanna see their energy and enthusiasm. I wanna see, and we didn't see it Tim Cook wearing a Vision Pro. Yes. Yeah. And, and I think you could do that in introduce videos. Cause I understand it's a much more content rich way to present it and, and then much more clear. But I do think you lose something from not having people on stage. I really do. And I think Apple's at risk of becoming, they already kind of look like this. In fact, even building Apple Park with everything facing in, they already look like a company that doesn't participate with its, you know, they're on a, they're in Lian Fields up there somewhere.

Alex Lindsay (00:09:46):
If, if Google and Microsoft are doing physical events in three years, I'll be really surprised. I think it's over. Yeah. Like the, the idea of the keynote is done. You know, it's, you can you put a fork in it? <Laugh>, you know, like

Leo Laporte (00:09:57):
It's maybe, you know, if Steve Jobs are still here, there would be no question that you would want. No, no.

Alex Lindsay (00:10:01):
He's the one that brought it forward. You have to be, but you have to be Steve Jobs or Mark Benioff from Sales. Mark Benioff from Salesforce, by the way. I don't understand anything he talks about, but he's amazing at talking about it. Yeah. Like, like his, his, you know, and he's trained, you know, trained by Tony Robbins and, and just incredible. Their, their entire staff. So if you're at that level and you're willing to spend two hours a week being trained then, then I think that doing keynotes makes a lot of sense for you. But none of these executives are doing that. And all of it is just painful to watch people who are unre untrained if they're not good

Leo Laporte (00:10:34):
At un practice.

Alex Lindsay (00:10:35):
Yeah. Stripping through things, reading teleprompters. Even Apple when, you know, when Steve was gone, it was the, the magic was gone in that process because they're not actors. You know, Steve had something that they didn't have. Steve made the key keynote a keynote because he was so good at it. Yeah. You know, but the thing is, is that that was like, you know, that was a, a huge, I'd

Leo Laporte (00:10:55):
Rather see a live, a live rock show than a perfect canned performance. I'd rather see the Broadway show than a perfect

Alex Lindsay (00:11:03):
Sure. But, but, but, but that, those are incredible, generally the talented, incredible musicians that are very talented and pr and spent thousands of hours getting good at it. The executives are not those people. They're, it, it, it's more like watching a live show of someone who just learned how to play the guitar, you know, like, like three weeks ago. And that's not super exciting. You know, like, you know, it's, you know, and that's what they look like, that's what executives look like when they go out on stage is like a kid who just learned how to play the guitar and trying to play you. Mary Mary had a little lamb, you know, it's just, it's really paint. I've watched literally thousands of sessions <laugh>. Okay. So I think that's part of it.

Andy Ihnatko (00:11:38):
But, but on the other hand, like, this isn't Las Vegas, this is really is ener engineers and product managers explaining this thing they've been working on for the past seven years. It's okay if they don't land the cripple jump off the, off the off the trampoline. You know, it's, I had, I have to had to say that maybe the biggest like, cognitive disconnect I had was like, wow, I'm seeing pictures of like an audience of people watching a video together on a screen. Yeah. Like if I, I mean, and I know that people didn't come, the people who traveled to go see it, didn't go to see it. To, to watch the video was because okay, maybe there's, there's gonna be a demo area. And also I have the ability to talk to people afterward. But Oh my goodness. If, if you didn't, if you didn't spend, if you were not like within one hour's travel time of that, of that venue, and you flew like <laugh> six hours to again watch what was a very, very stilted canned presentation with really very, it was, it was, you're right. It was very professionally done. There were no trip-ups, there was no stumbling, there was no like pauses as, oh, we thought that he would be able to cross from the right left stage to, to the center stage more quickly than that. But on the, on the other hand, it was like watching a video game walkthrough in many ways. And, and that again, it's, it's okay because this is just a product demo. This is not supposed to be showbiz. But

Leo Laporte (00:13:00):
We don't have to go on on, we got only, we only two hours show. Lemme

Alex Lindsay (00:13:04):
Just, lemme just say one point about that is that as someone who's done a couple thousand of these, I can tell you that that little, like, they just walked to the wrong part of the stage. That's like two weeks of meetings. And that's why a company, once they go into records,

Leo Laporte (00:13:16):
I understand. We don't look at enough. We'll go back enough. Right. <laugh>, they're gonna probably do it recorded from now on. I think there's something lost. Let's talk about the I'm gonna be grumpy today. You did not get to try it on Mikah Sargent.

Mikah Sargent (00:13:28):
I did not. The most that I got to do was walk into a room where there was this sort of center table and there were two headsets on

Andy Ihnatko (00:13:40):
Poles <laugh>. This

Leo Laporte (00:13:41):
Reminds me a lot of when the iPhone came out in Yes. You couldn't really, you couldn't really go near it. And

Mikah Sargent (00:13:46):
You just see this animation playing on the front screen. Is this

Leo Laporte (00:13:49):
Your TikTok or is this

Mikah Sargent (00:13:51):

Leo Laporte (00:13:52):
I somebody else's TikTok.

Mikah Sargent (00:13:53):
Oh, they, yeah, I guess it is. Yes.

Leo Laporte (00:13:54):
Yeah. Oh, it's our TikTok <laugh>. Yeah, it's our

Mikah Sargent (00:13:56):
Tiktok <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:13:57):
This is, here's your, here's your video from our slack channel. Very, very crowded. How many of them did they have there?

Mikah Sargent (00:14:06):
They had, I believe, well, I guess it's double. So it was six around the table.

Leo Laporte (00:14:10):
And I wonder, you know, they're doing these there's a, there's a closeup of it. They're doing these demos for people yesterday and today I imagine because it's stretched out so far that there are a handful of them.

Mikah Sargent (00:14:23):
There are not only are they're a handful of them. Yeah. But what is important to understand is that much like the first iPhone where if you push the wrong button, everything fell apart. Yeah. That is what we are seeing with these headsets. These headsets. So

Leo Laporte (00:14:36):
People who are doing the demos are saying,

Mikah Sargent (00:14:38):
Very guy, well,

Leo Laporte (00:14:39):
Highly guided. Yes. There's another part to this, which I should mention, which I, and I think this is a big problem for it, is you have to set it up. You have to have your face shot mm-hmm. <Affirmative> with the, with the with the device, the Vision pro, but also your ears scanned with your iPhone. You have to have your face scanned with the iPhone.

Mikah Sargent (00:15:03):
And right now they don't even have that process fully baked in yet. I can't, I cannot stress enough how much this is, this is why it's coming out next year, is that it's not, it's it's not there yet. Right now they're doing it with an iPhone. They're not, you don't actually do this setup process with the headset itself. You do it with an iPhone that then pipes that information into the headset. And the Lance was one of the folks who was able to try it and I think did a really good job of detailing the experience a little more than I've seen from some folks. They have a special device that people who make lenses for glasses

Leo Laporte (00:15:36):
Makes the lenses ice. But you have to get your particular prescription.

Mikah Sargent (00:15:40):
Yes. And so they, they

Leo Laporte (00:15:41):
Had a, an opt optometrist, that's what it is. Testing machine <laugh>

Mikah Sargent (00:15:45):
To figure out what to put pop in. And they do this all, it's almost like

Leo Laporte (00:15:49):
Assembly line.

Mikah Sargent (00:15:50):
Assembly line. Yes, exactly. And so you don't see what's happening behind the scenes. Then you go in, it's there for you to put on. Another thing is that they didn't show this. You don't see this in the videos. You don't see this, I didn't see this in the photos that I was able to capture, but there is also a strap that goes over the head to help add support. It's interesting that they're not showing that. I don't know if that means that eventually they hope they won't have to have that or what, or if it's an optional strap that's in the, you know, in the eventual box. But there's all this stuff that's kind of happening behind the scenes right now. The

Leo Laporte (00:16:20):
Reason I think that's kind of important is because one of the, oh, hey, we happen to have one right here. Thank you Anthony, for bringing yours in. One of the reasons I think it's important is because one of the use cases might be to have this at an Apple store to let people try it or put it in an IKEA showroom to let people do that thing that Alex Lindsay thinks everybody wants to do, which is place furniture in their house. But if the setup is so lengthy and, and personalized, by the way, it even has iris recognition Yes. So that it knows it's you when you put it on. It is a very personalized device. It's not something that you could just have in a mass market situation. Yeah. And I

Mikah Sargent (00:16:56):
Think part of,

Leo Laporte (00:16:57):
And we should say everything I'm saying is about this. We don't know what five years or 10 years exactly. Or 20 years down the road there'll be. But I have to say, as far as I could tell for reading a whole bunch of stuff and looking at a lot of videos, a plus in technological innovation mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, we'll talk about some of the features really on something only in Apple could do. In fact, no. In fact, meta hasn't done it. HTC hasn't done it. Nobody's done this. One, two I think in, in, in terms of performance of delivering a product with, that's amazing. They've done a plus. But I cannot help point out that ergonomically, this is a solid f that, that people are not looking to strap screens on their faces. And so, well, what happens when you develop something so cool, it's almost like they made the world's best, I don't know, submersible submarine. And it's like, oh, this is amazing. But it's just not a, it's not something people are looking for. You disagree, Andy?

Andy Ihnatko (00:18:02):
Well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it's an f I mean, the, the thing is the

Leo Laporte (00:18:05):
Ergonomics are not

Andy Ihnatko (00:18:06):
My, my my my over my overall take on this is that this is not the machine that Apple wanted to show off. This is the, they just got impatient. They stopped waiting for the display technology to become small enough, compact enough, and to do what they wanted to do to, to, to make the device they wanted to make. So they decided we're gonna make something that is a very conventional looking familiar device, will be familiar to people who have been using VR headsets for the past five or six years. And we will simply move on from there after demonstrating that we know how to run these displays. We know how to get enough detail that you can readex pretty much at any size, no matter where you put the window in the virtual space, that lag is not gonna be a problem. And that, as far as comfort goes, it's going to be as comfortable as such a device can possibly be. I do notice they, they never

Leo Laporte (00:18:55):
Mentioned the weight. They never mentioned the fan. That's

Andy Ihnatko (00:18:59):
<Laugh>. Well, okay. But the people, okay. The people getting back to, like, I, we, Marcus

Leo Laporte (00:19:03):
Brownley said it was very heavy.

Andy Ihnatko (00:19:06):
Yeah. And he's got most of the people,

Leo Laporte (00:19:07):
He's got a pretty strong neck on <laugh>.

Andy Ihnatko (00:19:09):
Yes. Yeah. One to think most of the, most of the people that I read who got the demos, a they said that the setup was actually very, very quick for, for what it was doing. It wasn't like very, very cumbersome. They also mentioned specifically that one of the things that Apple was admitting to was that they were still working on that interface between the device and your head. They had a, a limited number of sizes available to make sure that things fit correctly to people's heads, but they were working on by ship date, having so many of these different variations. Yeah. One of

Leo Laporte (00:19:37):
The things you'll do is have your face scan and they will custom mold a front piece for you. Yeah. So, and that's another reason you're gonna not gonna see these <laugh>. These are in the massive market situation.

Andy Ihnatko (00:19:49):
And, and, and the other thing is regarding the fan that most of the people I've, that again, that I've been reading, and the one person I talked to said that you really couldn't hear the fan,

Leo Laporte (00:19:57):
So Okay, that's fine. It's, it's good they have a fan because otherwise it's,

Andy Ihnatko (00:20:00):
I wouldn't say Fing pretty uncom. It's, it's comfortable. It's f compared to what it's you, but you are, you do have it right on the money. We've been talking about this for, for a long time that this is still in general VR headset. I'm joking, I'm joking, I'm joking about this. But I mean, he's

Leo Laporte (00:20:14):
On his view mask

Andy Ihnatko (00:20:15):
To, to put this, yeah, to put on this, this, you don't wanna wear that big ski goggle thing is a really big thing. And I think it was ki it's kind of adorable that they came up with like the eye view saying maybe it'll be okay if we have a scr, a lenticular screen that will make people be able to see your eyes behind it. Well, there's another, that's how desperate, they're totally

Leo Laporte (00:20:34):
Be a weird thing. They showed father taping a video tape, a 3D stereoscopic tape of his kid blowing out the candles. Yeah, that's great. Except all I'm seeing as a kid is creepy eye <laugh>.

Mikah Sargent (00:20:48):
Everyone, everyone I'd spoke to did not no one that I spoke to had a positive reaction to that idea of having to wear it while you capture theater. I

Leo Laporte (00:20:57):
Think we don't live in a world where we wanna distance ourselves more from people. We go to movies, not we, look, I have a credible movie theater in my house. If I'm wanna go to the movies, it's cuz there's other people there. So I think this is, this is to me, from an ergonomic and a psychological point of view, this is the wrong direction. Yeah. Now, we've all said, you know, someday they're gonna make these as spectacles that'll just, you know, sit lightly on your nose and you'll have augmented reality. Show me those, then I'll give it an a plus on ergonomics. But I don't even think the technology to make that exists. So Apple is doing a lot of hand waving here for something that I don't, I think is dead on arrival. Personally. Dead on arrival. Oh wow.

Alex Lindsay (00:21:43):
They'll sell a million next year. Yeah, that's fine.

Leo Laporte (00:21:45):
That's my prediction. It's still dead on arrival. Ok. And by the way, I don't think they're making a lot of money. People were creeped out about 3,500 bucks. That's probably pretty close to the bill of materials. I mean, it's probably, you know. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:21:54):
It's, it's, you can't, the the problem that, that everybody else has now, if, if they think, if they disagree with you and decide that, that, that they want goggles, they wanna make them, the problem is Apple has locked up so many patents along with

Leo Laporte (00:22:09):

Alex Lindsay (00:22:10):
Built something built along with building something that is so self-contained. It will be hard at any price for anyone to put out any piece of device that's going to really compete as heavily with that Right Now the biggest problem that HTC and, and Facebook had is, and Google had, was a constant discussion about price, which Apple stopped talking about. And Apple was just like, I mean, that isn't the the highest end headset that I've seen, but it's the highest publicly available one or will be. And the ones that I saw that were, that were nicer than this, were a quarter million dollars each <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:22:42):
So, so they, so I'm gonna point out that, so the, so the, the Microsoft Connect, which was the fastest selling consumer product of all time at that time, you probably don't even remember it. <Laugh> Yes, I remember sold 35 million units and is gone and was considered a massive failure. A lot of technology went into that thing.

Alex Lindsay (00:23:02):

Leo Laporte (00:23:02):
Yeah. That sold 35 million and was considered a failure. I, I just, well, I don't think this is gonna sell a million big deal.

Alex Lindsay (00:23:10):
Well, I think it'll be, I think the first couple years it'll probably be, you know, somewhere in the sub 5 million range million is gonna be the basement. I think it'll, I don't, I think that 5 million is probably, well, I could

Leo Laporte (00:23:19):
Sell 35 million and still be a failure. Of course. It's a lot more expensive than the Connect

Alex Lindsay (00:23:24):
Was. Oh, it's a lot more expensive than the Connect was. And so, so the thing is, so

Leo Laporte (00:23:26):
That's why it's not gonna sell 35 million. I might

Alex Lindsay (00:23:28):
Add, and I don't remember what the numbers are for the watch, but they weren't very big in the first, this is not the

Leo Laporte (00:23:32):
Watch, this is not the watch. The watch was relatively much, you know, a 10th to cost and was an accessory that you could wear that had some utility right outta the box. It was a watch. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (00:23:43):
Is the bigger question here. Not, does Apple need this to be the, the, the first big success in this idea of spatial computing? Can we not have a second generation? That is the vision without the pro then?

Alex Lindsay (00:23:56):
I think it's the consumer model. I think you're still probably three or four years away from a consumer a model that's less expensive than this one. So this is the stop gap. Right. But, but it's not a stop gap. I don't think it was a stop gap. I think it is another step in the, in something they were building from the beginning. So the thing is, is that there's no, I think that they's not a stop gap. No, it's not a stop gap. It's a step because it's not, they're not saying, oh, we couldn't get to what we wanted to. I think that they were, they've been building a, a systematic process. This is part of that systematic process. I don't think they got impatient a couple years ago. I think that they probably had this largely figured out five, four or five years ago.

You know, in that as a headset of this is what the first one's gonna be, and then the next one will be much more transparent and the next one will be much more. I mean, apple is oftentimes working at 10 years in advance. You know, and so the thing is, is that I don't think that this is, if they got impatient, it was in 2017 or 2018 or 2016. It wasn't last year or two years ago. And so the thing is, is that they so they, I think that they, the problem is, is that you can't build the set headset that you want without people interacting with the headset that you can make today. So while you can, while you can Yeah, I understand that. Talk about that. And, and what happened is all the other headsets have been dumbed down because of price. Like even the, even the, even the the, the Facebook one, those $1,500, which gave more headroom price has been devastating to these devices because they, they just require so much technology to be fluid. And so Apple's making it more expensive, they're allowing themselves to figure that

Leo Laporte (00:25:20):
Out. The technology is in there that probably cost them, you know, close to that to put seven 11 cameras and seven. That's incredible.

Alex Lindsay (00:25:28):
It's, it's an incredible,

Leo Laporte (00:25:29):
I understand that I'm not, you know, they had to cost that much. In fact, Harry McCracken pointed out that the Apple won, which cost $666 in its day in in, in 1970 $6 would've cost $3,554 today. So it's $54 cheaper in real dollars than,

Alex Lindsay (00:25:47):
Than the, and and I got the Apple

Andy Ihnatko (00:25:49):

Alex Lindsay (00:25:49):
Apple two E My Apple two e in today's prices was over $5,000. I just

Leo Laporte (00:25:53):
Say that those things were much more useful immediately. Oh my, this is, this is not, you know what, no one wants. I hate to tell you, Alex, I know you love it and there are people who love it. No one wants to put screens on their face. It's a horrible experience.

Andy Ihnatko (00:26:05):
Well, not, not, not yet. I just, I I I do just, I do think that this is the best that they could do right now. They had to have a first one of these. So great. Eventually

Leo Laporte (00:26:13):
They've colonized a craggy island covered in Berk Guano. Congratulations. You own it.

Andy Ihnatko (00:26:18):
But this, and this, this would be, this would be a very, very weird choice for, for meta to have done for Apple. If they have the, they have the ability money. The money simply saying. Yeah, exactly. If I think that they have the ability to launch a product like this without any real expectations, that's going to be a success in any way other than it works. This what they have to what I think that what their priority is that they have to sell the idea that this is going to be, so the 4K display that you're gonna have off of your Mac is so good that it's going to be the equivalent of a real display for you. When you have app windows floating in front of you in front of an environment that's gonna be so easy to use as a display that you're gonna be able to use it.

They have to, they just have, and they have to prove the idea that this is not just for training people in how to, how to how to maintain an aircraft engine in the military. This is not just about gaming. That this is going to be a computing platform. So I think that their idea is that so long as they develop a first generation of hardware that can sell that, that idea that this is a platform for apps, not just a way to look at magic dinosaurs jumping up and down on the desk in front of you, they will consider that a win for the next, for the next generation to come.

Alex Lindsay (00:27:23):
Yeah. And I think that one of the big things is that while everybody else had to figure out how to build all those things, apple is making a lot of the apps that already exist just simply work in there. And so being able to, you're not leaving this to use something else, which is a big hill that everybody else had to cl to climb is like, what do we do and how do we get people to put it on? Well, there's just a ton of things that you can just go ahead and do in there. And so, and you know, I think a lot of us have. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:27:46):
That's, by the way you, you say it that way, I'd say it's oh, nice lock in Apple. This does not work if you are not <laugh>, do you have to own an iPhone to use it? I know it's a standalone computer, but

Andy Ihnatko (00:27:57):

Alex Lindsay (00:27:57):
Problem. I mean, it's not, it's not really gonna be aimed at nobody Apple people

Leo Laporte (00:28:00):
I'll buy, do I need a Mac? Fine, I'll get an iPad too. Let's just buy everything. It's very good. It's a very good ecosystem play for Apple <laugh>. Congratulations. And the reason they could do that, Alex, is because it's basically, you know, iPad os I'm sure it's running a mock current. It's very similar, I think to iPad os I'm sure.

Andy Ihnatko (00:28:17):
Yeah. I mean, they're, they're good at the at the platform State of the Union yesterday, they were running through like what it, how what it will, what will will it be like to take an iPad app and modify it so that it will work on Vision os again, assuming that you just, you don't wanna just have it just be an iPad window that's that's floating in front of you and really it's, you drag something new into your X code and then you simply decide here is your, here's your swift view of your, of your current app. Do you want to hang, hang things off the bottom of it? Do you want to have certain things? And would, do you want to add three-dimensional elements to it? If, if that's really all you want to do with it, you can basically promote it to being a Vision OS app very, very quickly.

And of course, they want people to be more ambitious than that. And I will also say as an aside, that if all it does is, hey, look, I can have virtual screens all around me. That's not terribly ambitious. And I hope that they crack the idea of 3D computing and a 3D spatial computing as something more than I can, instead of having to, instead of having a next day, a $320 new monitor to have a fourth or fifth or fifth screen on my desktop, I can just drag a window up there. It has to be better than that. And I don't think they really made that case yesterday. But again, it's about the ecosystem, about being able to take the app that you created, make amendments to it, and turn it into an actual Vision OS app that has shadows, that reacts to the light that's around you, that when people enter the room, that your app will fade into the background so that person can get the focus. All these things you get for free. That's a very, very powerful mojo for a developer.

Leo Laporte (00:29:46):
So I I think really the, it is important to understand that there's, there's, there's, this is, this is next year, which by the way, must have surprised a few people. This is not, this is not this year. This is next year. And that could early next year could be June, it could be a year out <laugh>. So well, let's say May 31st <laugh>. But, so, but the audience for this is obviously it's not us, it's not Cons, maybe us, but it's not consumers, it's developers. That's obvious. Now, did they give any indication when developers might get the first

Mikah Sargent (00:30:24):

Alex Lindsay (00:30:24):
I think, I think that's one of, they

Mikah Sargent (00:30:25):
Given the opportunity to try it on last night. No,

Leo Laporte (00:30:29):
No. I mean, to actually develop,

Mikah Sargent (00:30:31):
Yeah, that was where I was

Andy Ihnatko (00:30:32):
Going next. Well, they said, oh, sorry,

Leo Laporte (00:30:33):

Mikah Sargent (00:30:34):
And at the event, apple announced that they would be releasing Vision Kit within, what was it, the first month within next month. A,

Andy Ihnatko (00:30:44):
A couple of months from now. Yeah, thank you. And there's, and there's a virtual reality. There's, there's basically a, a virtual environment inside of Xcode so that if you're testing out this thing without having the hardware, you basically have like a 3D first person shooter, <laugh> look at this fake firm that they've, they've developed inside of Xco to test it out in mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So yeah, you can get going in about two months looks like.

Leo Laporte (00:31:06):
So that's really who, I mean, that's really the real question. That, and the only question that matters is will people develop for it? Right. I know you will Alex. And that's,

Alex Lindsay (00:31:15):
Oh, I think, I think that there's, go ahead, Alex gonna develop.

Leo Laporte (00:31:18):
But what is the calculation of developer has to make, they have to say, well, well, I, Hey, do I have the skills? Do I have a product that would f fit this category? And finally, is there gonna be an a, a market for this a year or more out

Alex Lindsay (00:31:32):
As a small developer? That that's a, that's a hard conversation to have is cuz it's a lot of investment with not a lot, not a large market as a large developer. I mean, I've been doing immersive media for 30 years now, like, you know, so, so it's, you know, so we've been building these things for a long time and one of the things that's required to make this work is to do a lot of it. So you, you can't, you can't, you just can't think about how to make it work or how it should interact until you've done it. And so for a lot of the larger developers and gaming developers and and infrastructural developers that want to get into this, they're gonna build a small division that's just, you know, if, if it doesn't work out, they'll, they'll reorganize those three or four people, but there's gonna be 3, 4, 5, 10 people in a lot of Fortune 100 companies that are figuring out what the next thing is, you know, and, and trying to make sure that they're not caught behind because there's, it's, it's not something you can, it is very complicated and not something you can come up to speed really quickly with.


Andy Ihnatko (00:32:24):
Well again, if you, if you're not very ambitious, you can make a, this, this is, this is what bothers me. Then you could do a

Leo Laporte (00:32:28):
Disney Plus, right Bob? We'll put Disney Plus on it. Sure.

Andy Ihnatko (00:32:33):
Yeah. It's like, hey, great, you can watch 3D movies and it looks awesome. Hey, great. Again, you can have virtual monitors for your

Alex Lindsay (00:32:39):
Ipad as apps, but if it's, it

Leo Laporte (00:32:41):
Really has to be more than that, I think, to be considered a cultural success, success

Alex Lindsay (00:32:46):
At 4K. Per, I, just to be clear, at 4K per i, at the, at the frame rates that it's gonna run at, which looks to be approximately 83 frames a second. The how

Leo Laporte (00:32:55):
Did you get that number? That's good to know because they did not say

Alex Lindsay (00:32:57):
That said the R one chip. Yeah, the they said the R one chip pulls at every, at 12 milliseconds. Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:33:03):
Frames a second. Perfect. They did say the latency was 12 milliseconds. Yeah, yeah,

Alex Lindsay (00:33:05):
Yeah, yeah. So let's say about 83 frames a second. And so, so the so if you, what that means is that it's not just that you can watch Avatar on your headset, it's that it will look at least as good as it did in the theater. Like that's let

Leo Laporte (00:33:19):
Ask about, cause I was curious,

Alex Lindsay (00:33:20):
That's a distinction. Cause

Leo Laporte (00:33:21):
Avatar is not stereoscopic. It, is it?

Alex Lindsay (00:33:25):
Yeah. Avatar. Avatar and Avatar two are both stereoscopic,

Leo Laporte (00:33:28):
They're designed to be two eyes. Oh, I guess you were a goggles with them. Mm-Hmm. And so when they showed it at imax, they use imax

Alex Lindsay (00:33:37):
You, you use the Okay. Yeah. You use the Goggle to ok. And, and so, so

Leo Laporte (00:33:39):
Are many movies stereoscopic? Is that

Alex Lindsay (00:33:42):
Oh, there will be. I mean, the, the, the problem is is that, I mean, there's a lot of 'em that are done. Not very many of them are done well. So The Hobbit the Apple, well, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:33:49):
So I think Kepp was saying yesterday that for the Chinese market, cuz the Chinese are still very excited about 3D movies, most movies now are at least Upconverted to 3d.

Alex Lindsay (00:34:00):
And the problem is the up conversion, just the up conversion won't be that great. But the the, and there's lots and lots of movies that are up converted because that was a thing for a while after Avatar came out. Everybody built, you know, for all of us, I literally sent out an email this morning to a friend of mine who's got a couple 3D cameras and like, Hey, you might wanna rebuild those <laugh>, so you might wanna build those, get them put back together. He's got 'em sitting in pieces. And but the the issue is, is that there's a, there's a bunch of things that'll be interesting in, in the, in that development area. Like for instance, it'd be really convenient to be able to show sports live. And, but it's really hard to get the rights to that if only they had a soccer or football or, or something that they could shoot in stereo that they could put into that, oh, wait, wait, <laugh>. So so the MLS becomes a lot more, makes a lot more sense. Now. How hard

Leo Laporte (00:34:48):
Is it now? So Mikah found the thing that said the SDK's available later this month. How hard is it to develop this though, without the hardware? I mean,

Alex Lindsay (00:34:56):
You know, this is, you can do a lot of it. I

Mikah Sargent (00:34:58):
Wanna say, this is where I feel there might be in, in these early days. Apple very much positioned both on stage and in, you know, the, the first introduction to developers, the idea that even more whenever we saw apps from iPhone and iPad make their way to the Mac even more. So, I don't think they're the developers necessarily. I think the first question they ask you talked about the questions they should ask themselves, the first question they ask is, do I need to do any development for Vision Os? Because so many developers can take the apps they already have and just have them as part of a spaces workspace. Yeah. Where it is just that Slack that they don't need to make use

Alex Lindsay (00:35:36):
Of the And spaces. Go ahead. And to your point, there's a lot of stuff that'll be available to the user immediately without any, any special development. But there is a lot of opportunity to, to build out a you know, something that is really taking advantage of the platform. And that, and that's, and those are the things that end up at the top of the store. You know, I mean, like that's, you know, absolutely. You, you can, you can port your thing over, but what's gonna end up in the vr in the, in the, in the the vision store at, at the front page. And, and we should, I mean, even when it's small, it's a lot of people willing to spend money on it because they have, they, the, this is the only place they can go buy that stuff. When you do something, you know, like Elements was not a, the most, the greatest app in the world ever made to talk about the, the elements. But when it came out for the iPad, everybody I knew bought it because we were just like, it's $15 and we all paid for it, and we all wanted to see what they were doing in 3D and everything else. That's gonna be another opportunity for them to go back and grab that, that data. Again, sports, you're probably gonna see a bunch of stuff. Apple's probably gonna dump a lot of money into the market. I, I was the beneficiary of Google and Facebook doing that <laugh>. So, so, so

Leo Laporte (00:36:38):

Alex Lindsay (00:36:39):
So the so there's gonna be a lot of of people that are pushing, they're gonna spend a lot of money into that market to to energize it and to prove and show models. And so, so I think that there's a lot, there's a lot that's gonna be

Leo Laporte (00:36:51):
There. I do not doubt that Apple will pour billions of dollars, literally literal

Alex Lindsay (00:36:55):
Billions for the next five years for who are

Leo Laporte (00:36:57):
Marketing and creating content, content and all sorts of stuff. Yeah, no, and that's, you know, if you're gonna say there's something in the, in the Vision Pros favor, it's that Apple is clearly all in on this thing. I mean, they must have spent 10 billion, well, I mean, a year. A year, right? That's what meta spent probably That's what meta, that's what meta spent. So they must have spent 10 billion for the last decade. That's a lot of money on this thing. And I expect they will continue spending significant amounts of money into the future. Yeah. And I think that their reputation is a reputational risk because they're, you know, if, if it's not a success, people are gonna look at Tim Cook. So they need, they need it to succeed. I just, I think that there's this fundamental thing that p that everybody seems to ignore. People do not wanna strap device.

Alex Lindsay (00:37:48):
I think you're right. I mean, it's just, I think 70% of the population probably doesn't wanna strap anything on their face. I think it's probably 70%, 70, 75%, but 30% of the population's still a lot of people, you know, like, like, you know, and so that's, so this

Leo Laporte (00:38:00):
Will be something for the 30%. This is Yeah. And, and that will be enough of a market. It certainly will be a financially enough of a market for Apple. Apple doesn't have more than 30% of the smartphone market globally, but they have much more than the lion's share of of profits. So Yeah, they could make money on it. I I'm not saying they can't, I just, I don't think this is gonna change the world. And the only reason I'm being so negative is because, and I knew this would happen, you're gonna see every pundit in the world swooning over this thing. Especially people have tried it on. And there is something to swoon about. This is, and we're going to take a break and then back and talk about the technology because it's really, this is Apple operating on all eight cylinders. I mean, they've created something technologically amazing. I just I think it's worth pointing out <laugh> that this is a yet to be demonstrated market, you

Andy Ihnatko (00:38:51):
Know? Yeah. And, and Steve, and for me, the thing that really, really sticks to my cross that a the iPhone is a small percentage of the mobile market, but the market for people who actually own smartphones is phenomenal. It's, it's, it's, it's getting close to a hundred. And they

Leo Laporte (00:39:07):
Created that market if you,

Andy Ihnatko (00:39:08):
If you a feature phone. Yeah, yeah. No, no. That, that, that was a long, long process. I, I wouldn't agree with that, but okay. What I'm, what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is that the development of the, of the phone was such that they're so commoditized and they're so useful and so relevant to daily life that if you are at the lowest income level, the United States government will buy you a phone and set you up with a data plan. That's right. Just to make sure that, just to make sure that you have an email address, just make sure you can get access to government services, that sort of thing. If this platform, I'm not just limiting this to, to to to Apple. If this platform is for people who could shell out a thousand bucks for this kind of a headset, and that's, that's not the, that's not the aspirational level of technology for the people who, for the people who have the money to spend on something that may or may not be actually useful.

And you and Leo, you, you had one of the, one of the more, most important points that everyone is who got the demo today and yesterday has been swooning about avatar two watching through this headset, but watching, would you rather watch watch Avatar two and 3D through this 3,500 headset dollar headset alone? Or would you rather watch it on the sofa with your spouse and your two children on a $400 TV 4K TV set? Watching it as a group together without having to buy everybody of a thousand dollars headset is absolutely the, the more, the, the more, the more enjoyable way to watch a movie. I think, I think that's gonna be true for a long, long time, that

Leo Laporte (00:40:30):
The 30% who buy and wear this thing <laugh>, are gonna kind be outcasts. It's gonna <laugh>. They're not gonna, don't invite them to the birthday party.

Andy Ihnatko (00:40:39):
We'll be nice to the, we'll be nice

Leo Laporte (00:40:40):
To, we'll call them the spooky eye set. All right. They, they, they,

Andy Ihnatko (00:40:45):
They have the money to do, they have the money to rebut against us. Like no, let's be nice them so they don't have us killed or something have, have, have their Tesla robots just like whack us in the knee or something. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:40:56):
I mean, that's the fundamental thing. This is a single emphatically single user device that gives you some benefit over what we have today, but not massively. So

Andy Ihnatko (00:41:11):
They'll develop it. Yeah, not yet. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:41:13):
It's, I I

Alex Lindsay (00:41:14):
Think they'll be, I don't, I think it's much smaller percentage of that, that 30%, but a small percentage of people will probably spend most of the day in it. Like they'll, they'll probably

Leo Laporte (00:41:21):
Get, and those people will have a psychological damage, <laugh> maybe be, it cannot be cannot be downplayed. It's funny because Microsoft, I mean Apple at the same time as they this introduce a new feature in Watch os that tells you to go outside and get some sun. Yeah. So I don't know if that's a good thing to

Alex Lindsay (00:41:41):
Be. Well, I mean, I, I, I don't know thing all day phones are good for us. So first thing,

Leo Laporte (00:41:45):
Right? And they haven't, you know, it's, and this is even more isolating

Alex Lindsay (00:41:48):
Phones and, and for both our physical eyes as well as our, you know, there's definitely problematic problems with the process. I'm not saying that there isn't, but I'm still saying it's gonna be a big deal. Like it's gonna be a, a platform. Well,

Leo Laporte (00:41:58):
It's a big deal now. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:42:01):
It's gonna be, it's going to, I I think that over the years as they become much, there's gonna be a high performance version that keeps on staying at $3,500 and keeps on getting better, might even go up to more money and be even better than what we see here. There's gonna be a less expensive version that's gonna, you know, they're, they're gonna have less and less expensive versions like they've done with every other product that they've made, is they've made one that, that they could do at the price that they sell, sold it out, then they go upwards and downwards, you know, from, from that. So we're, we can probably expect five years from now to have one that's $800 and one that's $8,000. You know, like that's, that's probably the direction Apple will take it.

Leo Laporte (00:42:34):
And I should point out the, the, the vast excess of smartphones are sub $50

Alex Lindsay (00:42:40):
By, by, by total sales, by sales. But Apple, apple has a much larger percentage of the profit.

Leo Laporte (00:42:45):
I understand profit wise, if what you're looking at is profit maybe, and you're, although if you're spending 10 billion a year, most companies 20 years, most companies think about make a lot of money to make up for that.

Alex Lindsay (00:42:54):
Well, a million a year is still 3 billion a year. Three and half billion. They're, they're less. That's not I,

Leo Laporte (00:43:00):
That means you've only lost 7 billion that year.

Alex Lindsay (00:43:02):
<Laugh>. Well, I mean, it's, again, it's not

Leo Laporte (00:43:04):
That Apple can't afford to, right? I mean, only Apple could do this. And I think that's the thing that's o of interest. People are getting mad at me now in the chat room saying it's why are you so negative? It's not, I I'll just stop. It's, but you'll, it's not, you'll, you'll see you young people in a year, <laugh>. Yeah. You'll be, Hey, here's the good news. In two years you'll be able to buy this for $35 <laugh> at the Goodwill. So,

Alex Lindsay (00:43:28):
You know, the the advantage that Apple has is that number one, is that what it took to do? This was an incredible investment Yes. That almost no other company could, could

Leo Laporte (00:43:36):
Do this.

Alex Lindsay (00:43:36):
Yes. Number two is that they have the skillset to do hardware at this level that almost nobody else has. Number three, I, not nobody, but almost nobody, especially at that, at that tolerance level. Number three is that they have an entire ecosystem that they're setting up that they've already set up for the last five or six years that's tied into the hardware to many, many pieces of hardware. Your a AirPods, everything else is all tied into this experience and nobody else has that entire thing. And what Apple has been slowly doing over the last couple years is playing, starting to play games. And this is, this is a, this, this is the, the biggest, and I I've said this, I don't know for the last five years that Apple's number one problem is antitrust because they've taken what their, the, the size and ability that they have and it, and they are, they are they're basically playing games that no one else can play. That's a good point. And they're gonna go, we're gonna, yeah, we're gonna play a game like the M one. And

Leo Laporte (00:44:28):
It's an argument for letting Apple get big. Right. Or letting a company get big Cuz only they could do these kinds of moonshots. They're,

Alex Lindsay (00:44:34):
I mean the, there is no other company, but the problem for the rest of the industry is like, you can't, there's no real answer to the M one chips because you can't really get everybody to ar agree. You know, like Apple owns everything that's required to make that work and do being a vertical system is almost impossible to do. And you should never try to do it by yourself if you're a little company <laugh>, right? Because that's, that's almo that's almost suicide. The other, but once you get over to the other side, you have no comp. You have like, they're, they have no competition in their, in true competition in where they're going. And so, well there is

Leo Laporte (00:45:07):
A big question mark. They, because can you make this at a consumer price? And if you do, what do you take out? I mean, what we're seeing is the Cadillac, this is the thing with everything. What do you

Alex Lindsay (00:45:17):
What feature? It's a Cadillac. I would say that this is a nice Honda like the, where they're gonna go with it. Oh yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:45:23):
Okay. Oh yeah. Oh, you, this is

Alex Lindsay (00:45:24):
Eventually right now, but there's for now, they need technology

Leo Laporte (00:45:28):
Right now. If they're gonna turn it, everybody's

Alex Lindsay (00:45:30):
Been driving

Leo Laporte (00:45:30):
Spectacles every, they need technologies that don't exist right now. Ev

Alex Lindsay (00:45:33):
Everyone's driving around little Yugos right now and app an Apple brought in a Honda. They've got, you know, there's, the Ferrari is still out there and getting down to the Yugo will be hard for their Honda to fig for them to figure out. It's gonna be much harder for them to go downstream than upstream, you know, as far as what the feature sets and the quality. By the way, you

Leo Laporte (00:45:49):
Can't get a used Honda for 3,500 bucks. I just wanna point out you really want a Honda. So anyway,

Alex Lindsay (00:45:54):
Says very, very, you get 19, you can get a, you can get a 2000 Honda Prelude, you know, with little Flippy headset. You know, you know,

Leo Laporte (00:46:02):

Alex Lindsay (00:46:03):
But I, but I think that it, so I think that, that, that the, that the real difficulty everybody else has is that once you put these on, it's, you know, I, the, the other headsets are gonna look like you guys. Right? You know, and you're gonna have, well,

Leo Laporte (00:46:13):
I think they've already done that. I mean, oh, well, they think they've probably already done that. The Oculus the pro is, which was 1500 bucks, is now now into a thousand. Is nothing compared to this. I, as

Alex Lindsay (00:46:26):
Far as I, right. And, and that's the problem is, yeah. And so people, the problem is, is that people will, will, you know, they're, they're gonna have a hard time if they try the headset on the, the issue is, is that they're gonna have a hard time going back to the other headsets. Like that's gonna be the, the thing that that is gonna be difficult is that they're gonna have a hard time doing, well start

Leo Laporte (00:46:43):
Budgeting everybody. Cause you're gonna have to, because

Andy Ihnatko (00:46:46):
I've got a giant piggy

Alex Lindsay (00:46:47):
Bank. But what I say is that people will decide they can't afford that headset, but they're not gonna say, I can't afford that headset, so I'm gonna buy the Facebook headset. They're gonna, or the meta headset. They're gonna say, I can't afford that, and I'm just not gonna use headsets like that. It's, it's gonna be, it's that much different than the other ones that are there. That's

Andy Ihnatko (00:47:03):
The problem. Un un. Unless, unless the, when the meta or another competitor basically treats the, like we, like we were talking about last week, they could, this could be the Newton message, PADD Apple, apple does, again, where they create this beautiful kind of aspirational, really expensive thing. And then, then another company says, Hey, that's great, but what if it could fit in a shirt pocket? What if it cost half as much? And what if anybody could write software for it without having to pay a fortune for a development kit? And then that's the platform that takes off for us. Newton is credible and wonderful, and a, a highlight of

Leo Laporte (00:47:34):
Techno. It's kinda funny that we were complaining that you had to sign up for a Facebook account to use the Oculus <laugh>, when you're almost certainly gonna have to have an Apple account and register your irises and give them your firstborn. So we have a different, we have a different privacy relationship with Facebook. We do. That's a good point. Definitely. Yeah. I didn't, in fact, I really didn't want to create a medic account. But I obviously have many connections to Apple. Anyway, I'm gonna stop Harshing People's Mellow <laugh>. I know you all wanna live in the future, and you know, here I am sitting here in the mud saying we're never getting to the stars. But we will talk about what is quite impressive in terms of technology. And by the way, the Mac Pro was announced <laugh>, in case you forgot.

Oh, incidentally. And the 15 inch MacBook Air, which is probably the only thing everybody's gonna buy. I bought one. We'll talk about that. And by the way, a thousand bucks less than a vision Pro. And also available to order now and available now. So there you go. And useful <laugh> and use incredible, arguably useful. Yes. our show today, brought to you by Thank you any everybody for putting up with my my cranky crankiness, I'll, I'll calm down now. Our show today brought to you by ACI Learning. Oh man, I wanna thank them. They sponsored our coverage yesterday of the Apple event, of the Microsoft events the week before they build keynotes. They sponsored the studios. They've really been very good to us. Thank you. ACI Learning. And one of the reasons is because of our long relationship with IT Pro.

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Pro training from aci. Learning ACI learnings courses are easy to navigate, so much more straightforward, the traditional training programs and they fit your style and your needs. And by the way, ISO certified, you're getting the world class training your team deserves. Ask that at the other guys right now as an individual. You get 30% off if you use the offer code TWIT 30. That's for a standard of premium individual IT pro membership. Don't worry. Great discounts for for group learning for teams from two to a thousand. The volume discounts down at five seats across audit IT and cybersecurity readiness. ACI learning has premium training options waiting for you. Go dot aci Go dot aci for more information and a free two week training trial for your team. That's enough to complete. Everything you need for cert actually, if you work hard at it, go dot aci Thank you ACI learning. We appreciate your support. I've really been impressed reading through you know, of course we saw a, you know, half hour video, but reading through later the articles Lance's article in tech Radar, Marquez Brown's video about the technology really that, that's mo most suppresses me. It, this is, it strikes me as a plus technology. 4K screens, they said postage stamp sized. Is that, that seems smaller,

Alex Lindsay (00:54:14):
Large postage stamps, I think.

Leo Laporte (00:54:16):
Okay. A big postage stamp. Plus if you need correction, if you wear glasses, zeist lenses that are magnetically fitted in mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. I think that's cool.

Alex Lindsay (00:54:25):
I'm, I'm sure that those will be really discounted and, and, and not very expensive to add to your

Leo Laporte (00:54:29):
Yeah. Well, well you already spent $3,500 was another 500 bucks.

Alex Lindsay (00:54:32):
<Laugh>. 500 bucks is what?

Leo Laporte (00:54:33):
That's round even four. Yeah. You could wear your contacts if you want, but I think you'd wanna wear those lenses. It's a fo This is really cool. I I was hoping they would do this. The rumors where they would do this is a foviated display. Alex, you better explain what that is.

Alex Lindsay (00:54:48):
Yeah. A fo a foviated renderer. Basically what it does is it's, it's looking at it, there's a, there's basically static or dynamic. So static, a static foviated renderer is going to be a renderer that assumes that you're not gonna look to the signs. And so it's gonna render, it's gonna focus all of the resolution possibly frame rate all into the center of the, or the center of where it thinks you're looking at. What Apple appears to have is a dynamic foviated renderer. And that dynamic foviated render follows your eyes mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So it's literally watching your eyes moving around the screen and, and where the center of your focus is, which is actually a pretty small area of, of focus. It is making sure that you get all the resolution that you can possibly that you need or that it can provide there.

And then as you move away into your periphery, it starts to lower that resolution and potentially even frame rate away. So mostly resolution, most likely in that, in that area. And so by doing that it allows it to take limited resources. Obviously we had unlimited resources. We would, we would not use a affiliated render. We would just make everything really sharp by fo having a affiliated render. What we're able to do is, is have just the resolution that you need at any given moment. And it appears that Apple has done this very well. I mean, if you don't do it well, you see it as, as you move your eyes quickly. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:56:00):
Yeah. It would be weird.

Alex Lindsay (00:56:00):
Start to see edges and so on and so forth. But, but in this case, it sounds like they've done a pretty good job of it. And that means that that's part of what allows them to have such a high resolution for those, is that the resolution of the screens is that high, but how many bits it's actually sending to those screens at any given time is much lower. Which, which takes a lot of weight off of the processors.

Leo Laporte (00:56:21):
These are, by the way, I think foviated rendering might help with the comfort as well, I suspect. And maybe even with the nausea, because it's gonna give you the sense of peripheral vision. Right. Much more natural. I mean,

Alex Lindsay (00:56:35):
The real thing, the thing with nausea is primarily frame rate. So that is the thing that a lot of, a lot of r

Leo Laporte (00:56:41):
D 12 milliseconds, so that's,

Alex Lindsay (00:56:43):
Yeah. Yeah. So 12 milliseconds are about 83 frames a second. But that's where most people have an issue is in there's, there's two things that can cause nausea. One is that your inner ear and your, basically, basically most nausea is related to your inner ear. Is feeling something that your eyes aren't seeing. That's what

Leo Laporte (00:57:00):
Happens with seasickness. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:57:01):
Is that your eye, your your eyes aren't seen because for a million years before we did all this other stuff, if your eyes were seeing something different than your inner ear, you had been poisoned by something you just ate. And you need to get it all out, out of the system as fast as possible. And so we had a natural people who survived, had a natural reaction to throw up <laugh>, you know, when they did that. And so so what happens with low frame rate is is that you so the thing that happens with low frame rate is that, is that your eyes are behind, which is another.

Leo Laporte (00:57:32):
And so,

Alex Lindsay (00:57:32):
So what we found, the head

Leo Laporte (00:57:34):
Turns and then the picture turns. And you're, and it can be very subtle, is there's something wrong here. Ooh.

Alex Lindsay (00:57:39):
And it's, it's very subtle. It's, you know, the Disney did a bunch of research on this in the, in the nineties and, you know, with big Onyx boxes and everything else. And they would turn the frame rate up and down to see for rides. When do you, when do you blow chunks? And, and and the and it was 12, you know, between 12 and, and 18, depending on the person, about 12 to 18 frames a second. At 12 frames a second, no one could hold it. <Laugh>. There's also,

Leo Laporte (00:58:02):
So there's also the issue of the difference between the focal lengths that your eyes are saying by, by triangulation versus your actual focus distance. And those are not gonna match because the screens are close, but the objects

Alex Lindsay (00:58:19):
Look. But the, the but the apparent, the apparent what what it appears for you is important in that, in that area. You know, cause the reality is when you're looking through glasses, you're looking through something like that, it's, you're looking at something that's right in front of you that is, that is sharpening what's in what's out there. So it's where we're focused too in that area. But the, the, the, the issue is, is that the frame rate, as well as the other thing that ma matters a lot, and this is gonna be where, where they're gonna have trouble with 3D movies, is that the, if you change the orientation of the camera, you know, a lot or, or even a fair bit in 3d, you'll get sick because we used to do this, we had this thing in one of the 360 shots that we did that was stereo at the end.

My brother was steady cam, he'd get to the end of the walk and they'd turn the steady cam sideways. And it always told us when that person got to that part of the, of the Oculus test, because they would take the headset off immediately. They would, they'd pull it up. They're like, oh, you're done. You know? Anyway, so so the you can't change it. And what that, where that becomes a is you have to, the making content for this is why it's important to do a lot of content. Making content for these headsets is completely different than making content for tv because you actually have to slow down the edits. You, you can't, for some people, especially at higher frame rates, you can't you can't have big moves, big helicopter moves, jib moves, shaky camera. All those things are gonna affect people's experience of, of the, of the piece.

And so you have to, you have to build the content. Eventually. People are gonna not be building content that they're trying to take to the theater and to the headsets. Oh, interesting. What you're gonna start seeing is you're gonna start seeing high frame, high frame rate, you know, at least 60 frames a second. Possibly 120 eventually. But high frame rate content has less cameras, possibly only one camera. Experiencing those things and, and, and kind of slowing everything down because that's what people are gonna like. And that's also why, you know, the, the cameras on the on the headset are gonna be really good. As soon as people realize they can't treat the headset like they treat their cell phone, which is like, go up and down like this and, and be dancing. When people put those headsets on to shoot their kids or, you know, whatever they want to shoot film in 3d, they're gonna have to think like a camera person and not move their head very much. <Laugh> do it. Very

Leo Laporte (01:00:33):
Rich tomorrow, who was my replacement on the radio show. And by the way, proves that Apple hates me because he not only was invited the event, but got to try on the headset. He said he tried to get sick and he couldn't. I don't know how hard he tried.

Andy Ihnatko (01:00:47):
Yeah. I don't know how hard he was able. He was <laugh> lukewarm pork and everything <laugh> before, before getting in there.

Alex Lindsay (01:00:55):
No passing, passing the other, passing the outside world into the headset has a huge impact mm-hmm. On how you feel, whether you feel sick or not. But remember,

Leo Laporte (01:01:03):
You're not always doing that reference. You may not wanna do that. That's what that crown is.

Alex Lindsay (01:01:06):
How much

Leo Laporte (01:01:07):
Dials in how much of the outside world. You're right. If I'm a a person gets nausea, nauseated, I might want to dial in more of the natural world. These are, now, I wanna know if anybody knows, if it sounded like he said micro od micros.

Andy Ihnatko (01:01:22):
He did micro, not

Leo Laporte (01:01:23):
Micro, L e d,

Andy Ihnatko (01:01:24):
But micro O L E D. Yes.

Leo Laporte (01:01:26):
There's a big difference. These are od screens.

Andy Ihnatko (01:01:30):
He also said micro O with apple, silicone back plane. So, huh. He said that was, that that was within the, within the presentation. That's, so I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying to figure out exactly what he means by that. Exactly. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:01:43):
7.5 micron pixels. 23 million on two panels. If I do my math correctly, that's 11 and a half million per panel. That means 4k, roughly 4k three element lenses as well, which is they said that's a big deal. I don't, I don't know why that's a big deal, but anybody stop me if, stop me. I'm just gonna keep going through the specs and you stop me if you have something to add M two in this, of course it'll be an M three next year and M four and No, no, actually it's interesting cause if it comes out next year, it probably should be an M three. They might end up shipping it with an M three, I would imagine. And a and a new chip that apple's designed called the R one, which sounds like A D S P. It's designed to support all the inputs, the cameras and so forth and keep that responsive. Yes. And

Alex Lindsay (01:02:31):
That's, I mean, it's kind of amazing. I mean, the R one is an amazing chip <laugh> like it, and it gets back into, you have to know a lot about chip design to, to build something that is built really purpose-built for this headset, you know, and not a lot of companies could, you know, put that together. So, and, and I, and again, I think that that's, that's part of what makes this thing, this thing work.

Leo Laporte (01:02:53):
They're 12 cameras, five sensors, six including lidar, by the way, in the, in the bridge of your nose. Six microphones. Yeah. In order to do processes within 12 milliseconds, you need something special. That's the R one. Yeah. R one. Do do we know any more about the architecture of the R one? Do we know anything about it? It's just, it's a, it sounds like a D S P. Yeah. I don't know. We don't know. I don't even, I don't think they showed, they've not revealed two in the rest.

Mikah Sargent (01:03:21):
Yeah. To quickly go back. So in the process of creating O L E D, you deposited onto a substrate, the apple silicone back plane is that substrate. So they made a custom designed substrate on which the L

Leo Laporte (01:03:36):
E d, is that what's switching to pixels on and off mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and all of that. Okay. micro l e d has actually an l e D per pixel. It's a different, entirely different technology. And eventually we'll be on probably your iPhone and your, your Mac. And maybe it'll be inside the vision. I don't know the Vision Pro, by the way, were we surprised that it's Vision os after they trademarked all those other oss <laugh>

Alex Lindsay (01:04:01):
After they threw us all those

Leo Laporte (01:04:02):
No, they were kinda red herrings in Theore. There weren't there. I think they're trying to, I think they were trying to catch more leakers. <Laugh>. Maybe that was it. That's how, that's how many they need to reserve. Yeah. vision Vision Pro is the name of the device and note the pro, and everybody's been saying that this is a pro device. Vision OS is the operating system. Any more insight into what it really is, it does look a little bit like iPad os I'm sure it still has a mi like it has all the features of Mac Os. Right. it does support Unity. Alex, I know you prefer the re engine. No, I

Alex Lindsay (01:04:39):
Don't have any. No. I I, I think that, I mean, I, I think we've talked about this for a long time. I think that epic lawsuit with Apple was an epic failure. <Laugh>. Yes. Like,

Leo Laporte (01:04:47):
It, it is, it should support the Unreal engine, but it won't. Well,

Alex Lindsay (01:04:51):
Apple, you know, apple had un it's not just that app. Unreal could have done this. A unreal was being brought up on stage every keynote for a couple years as Apple built up towards this, they obviously knew where Apple was going with this. They, they were building into it and they decided that taking a high risk maneuver was more important than what they were getting a, you know, added onto and what, and, and opened up the lawsuit. And now, you know, and the thing is, is that most of us didn't, we had forgotten that Unity really did anything right. By the, by the time the lawsuit started, we had kind of forgotten a unity. And and I had done a lot of Unity development. And and then as soon as this happened, all of us were kinda like, well, we'll see what Apple does with Unity. And the question really was is, is Apple going to build its own development platform or whether it's going to use Unity? And it looks like it's a bit of both. So Apple's building up their own capacity to do that, but they're, but they've taken a relatively good, I, you know solid path, which is they can't fix everything. And so

Leo Laporte (01:05:47):
Joe Rosson, who's a senior reporter of Mac Rumors says that there is a ww d c session just came out that calls it XR o s and the slide is xr o s <laugh>. So apparently XR o s was an internal name. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But it's vision os I think that's kind of interesting.

Alex Lindsay (01:06:07):
But yeah. So, but so I think that, I think it's gonna be interesting to see how the, the process with Unity though. I mean, I think that, and it is helpful because there's no way they could build their own os Right. You know, from the ground up to do that.

Leo Laporte (01:06:17):
Their own engine. Yeah. Yeah. The most advanced personal electronics device ever crows Apple. And I think that's fair. Actually, it probably is. That's incredibly advanced. I mean fair for they built their spaceship for your face. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And where you look stays private because those aren't really your eyes does it. Now, here's the thing I wanna know. Is it like one of those uncanny things like Jesus with it follows you wherever you go? Like the eyes, the eyes are always I are they always looking at,

Mikah Sargent (01:06:48):
We didn't see anyone with it on their face because they have not Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:06:51):
Why did not Okay. Conspiracy theory time. Why did we not see anybody

Mikah Sargent (01:06:57):
Wearing it? So, I, I genuinely feel it's because

Leo Laporte (01:06:59):
Any executive, any Apple, you know,

Mikah Sargent (01:07:01):
Well, no one was able, was allowed to take any video with it on, it would've

Leo Laporte (01:07:05):
Fallen apart if they

Mikah Sargent (01:07:05):
Put it on demo. Because I don't think they've nailed the outward view yet. It looked good in the, the, you know, photos that we saw. But it's, do you

Leo Laporte (01:07:14):
Think Alex, those are fake faked eyeballs? No,

Alex Lindsay (01:07:18):
No, no. I, I, I think they, there

Leo Laporte (01:07:19):
Was an uncanny valley element to it. I

Mikah Sargent (01:07:22):
Thought. It looks like when Burke is wearing his motorcycle helmet with the, you know, the sort of visor down and you could see his eyes through it. That's what it reminded me of. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:07:30):
That would be the best piece

Alex Lindsay (01:07:32):
There. There's been so many memes done of Mark Zuckerberg wearing headsets and stuff like that, that I think that Apple probably just said, we don't wanna bead those memes. Like, you know, and, and we don't want to be the ones that they put those, those pictures on. I think that's probably why they did it. Just that

Leo Laporte (01:07:45):
They, well now they're creepy. I think there's memes of waiting no matter what you do. To be honest with you, those eyes are generated from the scan that you do with the lidar on your smartphone on your iPhone. Yeah. Initially. And that also creates your avatar and use in for use in FaceTime. I have to say the FaceTime usage is use case is not compelling. It's not like, and they did this cuz they didn't want to do what Meta did with the spaces and the feet that are, the legs are missing and all that. They're, those people are not in the room with you. They're on a screen. So basically you're just seeing a FaceTime screen with

Andy Ihnatko (01:08:22):
I thought that, I thought that

Leo Laporte (01:08:23):
That demo was the

Andy Ihnatko (01:08:24):
Least compelling thing

Leo Laporte (01:08:25):
That they did in the very, it's no better than regular FaceTime. It worse, it's worse because they're not seeing you. They're seeing your having Yes. Model.

Mikah Sargent (01:08:31):
Why? And this is, I think that this was the one place where I felt there was a mistake done in the keynote, which is they chose later on in the technology portion to talk about what you looked like in a FaceTime call. So I kid you not, when they first showed off FaceTime using it, everybody was so distracted talking to one another going, so what do I look like in it? What do I, yes. No one was paying

Leo Laporte (01:08:52):
Attention. That's what we were saying.

Mikah Sargent (01:08:53):
No one was paying attention. We were all asking questions. We were all processing in our head, how is it possible that we look? And then they finally addressed it. I think that that was a mistake because it took everybody out of the moment where up to that point you heard these oos and ahs, suddenly there was this murmur of why are they not telling us what we look like in this view? Right. And I appreciate they

Andy Ihnatko (01:09:09):
Should have focused

Leo Laporte (01:09:09):
Group agree with presentation, because the other time that happened is when they said, and we're finally bringing to the iPad an app that we've, we've never brought to the iPad before. And I think everybody in our audience, I bet you everybody in this theater was saying the calculator.

Mikah Sargent (01:09:22):
Oh, I thought it Wasco,

Andy Ihnatko (01:09:23):
<Laugh> Health. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:09:25):
Wasn't the calculator was health, but we'll get to that. Yeah, I hope.

Andy Ihnatko (01:09:28):
Yeah. But yeah, there's

Leo Laporte (01:09:29):
Only eight hours in the day. But <laugh> if we can, we'll get to that,

Andy Ihnatko (01:09:34):
But act actually just quickly go, going back to ivu you are right that, you know, the, the trick if we have that <laugh> that that that roadside picture of Jesus with the ice follow you. Yeah. It's the same technology. It's a lenticular it's ridiculous display. So that if people look you from one side, they'll see, you'll see, they'll see the side of your face. They look you from the, from straight ahead. But yeah, when I, when I, so when, when

Leo Laporte (01:09:55):
I'm wearing that and our housekeeper comes into vacuum, everywhere she goes in the room, it'll be looked like I I'm looking at her. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:10:03):
Right. I I I, that's crazy. I like the Yeah. That's, that's how it's supposed to work. I like the idea of it. I I like that they've, they're thinking about, well, how do, how do I interact with people in the room? How do people know that, Hey, look, I'm, I'm actually got the knob turned all the way to, I don't wanna see anybody in the room. So don't try to, don't, don't think that you're actually making eye contact with me versus how do I give myself a sense of feeling of presence. But just, just like with those avatars, it seems like the risk of looking incredibly dorky with this because this technology kind of works. It works admirably well, but not well enough. I think the risk is very, very, very high. I do, I do think that the, I did notice one thing that kind of got me interested in the avatar is that they mentioned that they can also represent you basically if, if you're face, if if there are people who are, who are just using a regular Mac or regular iPhone to FaceTime with you, your avatar will be just basically will be you in in the, in their, their view of of you in the, in the FaceTime call.

It made me wonder if that couldn't be something that I could use even if I didn't actually have the headset on. Like if I owned it and I've, I've or in way form I, I've created this avatar, but I thought it's like, I don't want, I, I wanna do my, I,

Leo Laporte (01:11:17):
They, they said it.

Andy Ihnatko (01:11:18):
I don't want, I don't wanna have to find a hoodie,

Leo Laporte (01:11:20):
Clean hoodie. I, like I said, like a feature. Say again. They're gonna move that into FaceTime. I think they said that was a feature, not Yeah, no,

Andy Ihnatko (01:11:27):
That's, that's definitely a feature. But I, what I'm wondering is that if it will work, if again, if I don't own one of these things can

Leo Laporte (01:11:32):
No, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Cuz you're not, that's why you don't use your thing to scan it. You use your phone to scan it. So.

Alex Lindsay (01:11:37):
Well, I think, I think that what's interesting, if there was ever a zigzag, I think it's actually that face, that face there, because I think that I really felt like emojis was building up to be used.

Leo Laporte (01:11:46):
Yeah, no kidding.

Alex Lindsay (01:11:47):
When you're, when you wanna be virtual. Yeah. And then they, it felt like, because I, the problem is, is that the uncanny valley level of that is gonna be like even just seeing the demo at its best quality, I could see the weirdness that happened in that. It was very, you know, polar express, you know, like I, you know, it was

Leo Laporte (01:12:02):
Po unc uncanny valley. That's Alex that is. So that's the poster child for uncanny Valley. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (01:12:07):
So I, I just think that, I think that it was, it's so close. And the problem is I would, if, so, if I had the choice of scanning my face and being in there or being my emoji, and I think this is one thing that Apple really has done well, is the apple has the only emojis or style like that that looks, that potentially looks better than you do when you put 'em, turn 'em on. Whereas all the other ones are kind of like a, you know, metas and, and snap and everything else. They make ones that are they all like a dorky, pretty dorky version of you. And and I think that Apple, apple has actually done a really good job job with emojis. And now we're kind of throwing that out and doing something that's gonna be, I'd rather be a cartoon than be something that's really close to my, to my face. You know? So the

Leo Laporte (01:12:49):
Other thing I thought was way advanced ahead of anything anybody else is doing, there is no physical controllers. It's looking at your hands and you don't have to put your hands in front of you. Your hands can be in your lap. And the gestures similar to the gestures Microsoft proposed for the HoloLens, but a lot, it looked like a lot more effective because, and this is, I think the most cool thing. It's tied to your eye tracking. So they have it sounds like very sophisticated eye tracking. Yeah. Yeah. Because the interface requires, if you wanna say, click an icon that you look at the icon, the icon, once it sees you looking at it pump pulses a little bit, and then you tap two fingers together anywhere, like on your lap and you click it, your eyes are the cursor, your eyes are the cursor.

Marcus Brownley said similarly, you could look at a field and then start talking and it would automatically just as it does on the Apple tv, when you press the, the button, it would automatically fill in the, the field with text. I think that's pretty innovative and does solve a problem that other headsets have. And it really, well, you know, one of the things I really find puzzling meta has talked a lot about this. Microsoft talked a lot about this. Apple did too, is the use of these devices not as entertainment devices, but as productivity tools. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and if, and, and, you know, that's why the HoloLens had flicks and swipes and all sorts of weird gestures. They had a gun gesture. Well, and I don't know if that's really what anybody wants to do do for a

Alex Lindsay (01:14:19):
Living <laugh>. Well, and, and, and for HoloLens, they had the HoloLens that had a deloid problem, which is that your shoulders Yeah. You know, you have absolutely

Leo Laporte (01:14:26):
Hit own, raise your

Alex Lindsay (01:14:27):
Hands. All everything you wanted do, do is like smart this. Yeah. And so you had to hold your arms up for if, if again, if you're gonna use it for a long period of time in two hours or something, it's not a big deal to do this every once in a while. It's a big deal. If you're gonna do it for two hours, you're gonna be up like this. Fatigue

Leo Laporte (01:14:39):

Alex Lindsay (01:14:39):
An able to sit there and do what you wanna do

Leo Laporte (01:14:41):
In general with all of these, which is how long you wanna wear this thing. It's gonna get sweaty on your face. I don't care what kind of custom muff you've made what kind of fans you have. And and then there's the issue of, you know, it's just kind of an uncomfortable setting. So Apple really has solved this by making sure that you can't wear it for more than two hours. The battery dies. Well,

Mikah Sargent (01:15:02):
You can plug it in there.

Leo Laporte (01:15:03):
Yeah. You can't

Alex Lindsay (01:15:04):
Yeah, I was gonna say, I was gonna say, but I wonder

Mikah Sargent (01:15:05):
How hot it gets when you use it that way. <Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:15:07):
So it's a battery pack that has a type C connector on it, as well as the, the proprietary connector that talks onto your <laugh> ss onto your helmet. See,

Andy Ihnatko (01:15:18):
The, the people who, the people who got the demos say that it actually kind of twists and walks into the helmet. Ah, ah, which kind, which kind of, it's not magnetic. Which kind of, which kind of makes sense because they're moving around. Yeah. You don't wanna, well, not, well, not, not, well not, not only that, but if it disconnects you're suddenly completely blind. You crash. Exactly. Cause you, you don't have, you don't have see-through that's actually just cameras. They're they're doing that. So they would want that to be locked in. Although that does, I wonder how much discussion they had on how long does this tether have to be to the battery? Because they're gonna be, if we, if you have to say a requirement of using this device is that you have to have a shirt with a pocket in it, or you have to have clothes that have pockets in it, that's gonna be a problem for me. Oh,

Mikah Sargent (01:15:55):
I can't wait for the third parties to start selling little pouches Yeah. That I can sell. Oh yeah. That's what's

Andy Ihnatko (01:15:59):
Gonna happen. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (01:16:00):
Get your, I'm waiting for your ermez

Alex Lindsay (01:16:02):
Scotty vest. They'll be the Scotty vest. Yeah, yeah. You know vision, vision line. Right.

Leo Laporte (01:16:08):
They also, they also though have a type C connector on it that's for charging it, obviously. But if you plug that into the wall or a computer or something mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I don't, we don't know how much voltage it needs, but it will presumably continue to operate forever.

Mikah Sargent (01:16:21):
You can choose to operate your house or this, not both.

Andy Ihnatko (01:16:24):
Yeah. <laugh> <laugh>. Yeah. That, that, that is what, that is one of the few things that I, that I spotted. Like, I wonder if they're waffling here. They said that you can use it all day. They didn't. But like Mikah kind of alluded to, did they say that theoretically it will, it can draw power all day? Or do they did, are they saying that No, no, no. It's not ever gonna overheat and give you a thermal shutdown like, like the other headsets do after a certain amount of time. That will be, I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure they don't have that answer today. And they will have the Exactly

Mikah Sargent (01:16:51):
Next year when it launches, then we'll know what all day <laugh>,

Andy Ihnatko (01:16:53):
There's, there's, there's gotta be a reason why these demos last 30 minutes, but then they kick the you the hell out after 32 minutes. Like, no, no, take it off. Take off now. Fire out sakes while they hose you down. <Laugh>,

Leo Laporte (01:17:04):
We studied thousands of heads, said

Andy Ihnatko (01:17:07):

Mikah Sargent (01:17:07):
That that caused a

Andy Ihnatko (01:17:08):
Huge laugh in the audience. Yes. <laugh> for sure.

Leo Laporte (01:17:11):
To create the most advanced personal electronics device ever. And yeah. Pretty impressive. Again, a plus for technology, a plus four execution. I think the jury still out on whether this is a product anybody wants.

Andy Ihnatko (01:17:28):
I graduated Stanford top of my class. I got, got, got hired by Apple, like my first pick. And I spent my first six months measuring heads <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:17:37):
Well, and I, I noticed a number of tweets and social posts from people who said, you know, I've been working on this for, you know, my, somebody said my 30% of my life and I'm really glad to see it out finally. I do not want to in any way criticize anybody who worked on this. You have done brilliant work. It's amazing what you've created. You've taken a product category that was really not very acceptable and at least raised it to the level that people wanna wear it. I am not, I am not quibbling with that whatsoever. It's very impressive what Apple's done. I'm just thinking from the point of view of a product. If, if it's gonna be a

Andy Ihnatko (01:18:15):
Yeah. Only time we'll talk

Leo Laporte (01:18:16):
Popular and only time we'll tell that we can't kiss. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I, you know, I will be, I've kind of gone out on a limb here being Mr. Cranky and, but I will be sincerely surprised if in a few years this is, this is something people are wearing. I will be

Andy Ihnatko (01:18:34):
No, I'm, I'm, I'm glad this is part of the conversation. Yeah. Because they're, this is, this is, apple is so good at running these events. They're designed to dazzle people who don't have a lot of time to really sit and think they really have to publish like that day. And so there is a lot of stuff that is like, oh my God, it's so bright, it's so shiny. I'm glad to see that in a lot of, and most of the hands-on stuff that I've writings that I've seen. It is, it is very balanced by how I really, I was really impressed with it. But the thing is, I did, my head was a little tired after 30 when I took it off to after 30 minutes. It was kind of disorienting, going back to the real world balanced by, Hey, I could actually take notes on my phone.

That's how good, like, I could see through, we have to make sure that we know that what we're seeing is kind of like what we saw on the very first iPhone demo. We're seeing the fir they're, they're pulling it out of the barn. All, all nice and shiny and bright. So that putting it on the, on that little turntable so that we all take a look at it and take pictures of it. This is not the time for where it's even possible to really rate what it can do, how practical it is and how people are gonna be able to even tolerate it on their heads. That's gonna come probably in December when Marquez, Brownley and I Justine get there as a month before everybody else.

Leo Laporte (01:19:44):
Right. And I think Marquez's video was actually pretty balanced. I was impressed by I thought so too. His video I thought he did. If you're gonna watch, I didn't see all of 'em. I didn't see Justine's. But if you're gonna watch one, I think that was a pretty good one to watch. He seemed to have a, a fairly balanced point of view on the, on the whole thing. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:20:02):
You can't, you can't praise it. You can't slam it yet. It's no, it is what it is.

Leo Laporte (01:20:06):
It's an interesting thing. And God bless him for putting hundreds of billions of dollars. <Laugh> and even, you know, the other thing that's unknown, even if it isn't something that people want now Apple's gonna spend so much marketing money, you're gonna see ads on football like you've never seen. Right. I've

Mikah Sargent (01:20:23):
Already seen ads in social media places. Sure.

Leo Laporte (01:20:26):
It's a little weird to spend any money on advertising now since they don't have a product. But I think come this fall, depending on when they really plan to ship this you're gonna start really seeing a blitz. I mean, if you spend a hundred billion dollars developing a product, you can spend 10 billion advertising it. 10 billion is a lot of ad time. And by the way, I'd just like to say as negative as I've been about the Vision Pro, we certainly would love some advertising dollars. <Laugh> a hundred million. That's all we ask. A fraction of the, I can say, you're not gonna get it. I'm not gonna get it. You know what, that's the beauty of this is I don't have anybody's aticus and you know, apple wrote me off years ago, probably rightly so. And I'm gonna be honest, that's all.

Was it surprising to any of you that not once was the word or the letters AI uttered? Not once they said machine learning, but that was it. Yeah. They, and that's interesting cuz I have now the page from the con the the tracks at wwc up on my screen and yeah, there's a whole big ML and vision track. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, including detecting animal poses, <laugh> discovering machine learning enhancements and create ML and lifting subjects from images in your app. But obviously there's a lot of AI in, or machine really AI's a terrible term. So let's say machine learning, that's actually really a better term in everything in this in this vision Pro. I mean, it's, it's, it's doing a lot of work, right? Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. One more break, and then I think we should, unless Okay, I'll, I'll, I'll do a break in a bit, but anything else anybody wants to say about the Vision Pro and Apple's vision for this? Scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. <Laugh>. I went through my my notes, you know, my my outline. I do, I do have to say Craig Feder

Alex Lindsay (01:22:23):

Leo Laporte (01:22:24):
It's a living God. He was very much looking for the dad joke moment. Of course last time it was running his fingers through his hair as he ran from one set to the other. This time it's playing. Is that real? You think that I guess it is.

Alex Lindsay (01:22:39):
No. Well, it's, I, the, the, the, the coolest. I, I just, I thought, I, I never thought I'd hear Ozzy Osborne on a Yeah, he,

Leo Laporte (01:22:46):
He really shredded on that. And look at the Marshall Stack. I, I feel like he, he might have given a little concert at one point, like

Alex Lindsay (01:22:54):

Mikah Sargent (01:22:56):
Yeah. I, for me the quick thing I'll say is I would, I'm most looking forward to what we hear about this device come fall, come winter leading into the next year. Because everything that I have heard and learned and seen and am able to discuss suggests that this is very much iPhone demo, a first iPhone demo land right now. And I would like to know what they couldn't talk about yet, because they can't promise it. Yeah. But might eventually be interesting.

Alex Lindsay (01:23:33):
I also think they kept a lot of dry powder. Like I, they, that was much less than I think that they, they've prepared. I think that as we get closer to the actual sale date, there's a lot of powder of what they can show that they didn't talk about at all. Really that's

Andy Ihnatko (01:23:47):
There. So are you saying that cuz you want it to be true <laugh>?

Alex Lindsay (01:23:53):
I just think that that might be the case.

Andy Ihnatko (01:23:55):
<Laugh>, I think. Yeah. Well that was a good, like, yeah. I, I, Alex, Alex knows something I think, but Okay. Go ahead Alex. I think I, Alex I think, I think you're very correct, <laugh>. But I'll, but I'll move onto, I

Mikah Sargent (01:24:06):
Also think you're very correct <laugh>.

Andy Ihnatko (01:24:07):
Huh? I think you're very incorrect. But then that's, cuz I haven't signed any documents. <Laugh>.

but, but I'll, but before, before we move off at the, the last thing I wanted to say was just that I'm actually kind of intrigued by the people that are gonna buy it. At least as there, there, there's, everyone's gonna have like a pie chart of how they just justify the $3,500 and, and, and it's kinda, they're gonna say, oh, $600 for watching videos, $400. Cause it'll be a nice thing for for gaming $800 because I've really wanna develop for this. But I, I think that one of, for a lot of people, one of the biggest pieces of the, of the pie chart are gonna be being able to do spatial photography and spatial video. The idea of being able to record the scenes around you, not because you're, you're, you're creating models or that you're making scenery for some other project, but just to capture something in the greatest fidelity.

I agree that, oh my God, if you're playing, if you're spending your limited time on this earth with your adorable three-year-old child and you have this big half of a watermelon on your face, I don't, I think you, I think you're parenting. I think you, I don't think it's, I don't think it's, but, but what I'm I'm sorry. What? When, but, but just to, just to finish off. But the I, I still remember a number of years ago I tested and read a, wrote a review of Sony had these digital HD 3D binoculars where it was looked like very, very traditional binoculars. But essentially each half was essentially a, a, a a, an HD camcorder that was giving you video. And the number of times, and during the month that I had it, I would do things like I would be at Nel Hall and I would with just with my binoculars be watching like a street performance and then to be back like in my house and put these things up to my face.

And to be watching this again in 3D with decent, with decent video and everything. That was a powerful, powerful thing. And so the idea if, if $3,500 is gonna be a bit rich, but I could see somebody who, okay, if, if I, if I, if I had made better professional and or financial decisions 20 years ago and I had that kind of money to spend, I would be really keen to buy a j again, 40% of that pie would be, I just want to take shots of where I am right now. Not to replace my life, but because later on I think I'm gonna be enjoy the fact that I have these like immersive 3D recordings of this space that I'm in, that I like.

Alex Lindsay (01:26:27):
And, and I think that the other thing is, is that I, I, so I thought that was one of the most compelling things about Google Glass was that I could look up and I could say, you know Google take a video or whatever and it would start to record. And I have these incredible little videos that I found I just found recently on my Google account of my kids when they're much younger. From my point of view now only in 2D and seven 20 p I'm gonna assume that this is gonna capture the video probably pretty close to the resolution that I'm looking at it at 4k. Cuz they can do that with their phone little, you know, the phone can do it. So they can probably do it there. If I'm getting those. The, there's, there's two things there. One is that there's gonna be a, I think, an interesting market for shooting things that you want to experience. Another thing is to shoot things of the family. And when other people have these headsets you know, I think that shooting for them will be also, you know, interesting. And I think you're gonna see people going to a sporting event or other things and, and shooting something for someone that's in 3D that is all there and they can then watch it as if they were, as if they were there. And I think that's gonna be an interesting little model that that occurs there.

Andy Ihnatko (01:27:30):
It's, it's gonna be an interesting driver for when the people, the first adopters will be shooting all this video. And maybe a lot of people when it comes down to 1500 and they're like, oh, I really wish it were a thousand dollars. But now that I see that, ooh, this is, there are these three or four different VR channels that people are telling me about, about people who were at live events that recorded really, really well. Yeah. I, and finally, finally, I did th I did th think that since, since you mentioned it. I did think that was really, really interesting because that was the exact same demo that was in like, the intro of Google Glass. Like, Hey, I'm, I'm a, I'm a mother and I'm watch, I'm wearing, I'm able to play with my child, have eye contact with her, play with her while still like, capturing this moment in video without feeling as though like, I'm parked behind a camcorder. So I thought that was an interesting bit of like cross, cross pollination glass. Queen glass was a

Alex Lindsay (01:28:12):
Little bit, a bit more transparent. Like

Andy Ihnatko (01:28:14):
For this,

Alex Lindsay (01:28:14):
For the Apple one, it'd be more like, I'm going to take a moment with this and I'm gonna put 'em back because hello. I don't wanna,

Andy Ihnatko (01:28:19):
Man, I just

Mikah Sargent (01:28:20):
To know if I can shower with vision or not.

Andy Ihnatko (01:28:23):
Oh God. Waterproof.

Leo Laporte (01:28:28):
I think it's sad that people want life so different from the life they're leading that they're willing to.

Mikah Sargent (01:28:34):
Didn't you point that out though, that there's a lot of media that sort of centers around getting out of the life they're living because everything is bleak and horrible and every single use we actually have to stay inside cuz it's too hot.

Leo Laporte (01:28:46):
Every single use of VR in fiction mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and in film is because they're escaping from dystopia. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Whether it's Ready Player One or Snow Crash or a neuro manzer, it's always to escape at Wally. May. And you know what? That is probably the single best reason these are gonna succeed because we're gonna be in a living hell in about 50 years. So here's the <laugh>. Get me the glasses. By the way, we we already, this is a little I to, I cut this out of our whiteboard in the other studio. We've already started talking about what we might call the next shows this week. Here. Here's, here we go. Welcome to this weekend. Vision. Vision. Today. It's Vision Weekly or Hands-on Vision. <Laugh>. No hands-on Vision. That's How about Eyes on Vision? Oh, that's funny. Ooh. Pin. Never. You wanna host that Eyes on Vision? I was gonna say pinch. I'll buy you one of those. I don't think that's pinch me. We have to do the whole show though. I think that, I think the whole show

Alex Lindsay (01:29:45):
Has to be done in the g you know, as a FaceTime in the gog in the Yeah, I think

Leo Laporte (01:29:49):
That, yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, eventually we will be, we'd offer replaced with those. Yeah. We'd offer you that. Kenny 3D stereoscopic, few of the show you could wander around behind us. Yeah,

Alex Lindsay (01:30:00):

Leo Laporte (01:30:02):
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Oh. Goodie goodie. They started right at the beginning with Max. I love that. No wasted no time to leap into the thing I care the most about. And we had heard that they might announce a MacBook Air 15 inch. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And indeed they did. And the, and the, and the words that warmed me to the bottom of my heart. Pre-Order today shipping next week. Yeah. I ordered immediately. And mine comes next Tuesday.

Mikah Sargent (01:34:59):
Nice. What color?

Leo Laporte (01:35:01):
I, so I have like you, in fact, this is white. I didn't really need this. I have the M two midnight blue. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But my daughter needs a new computer. <Laugh>, that's my excuse. So <laugh>, so I'm gonna give, because she has a really old MacBook area, so I'm gonna give her this one. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I got the 15 inch, but I, I couldn't bring myself to get the midnight cuz of the fingerprint ble.

Mikah Sargent (01:35:22):
Fair enough.

Leo Laporte (01:35:23):
And at least I got a MacBook Pro that was silver, like old school. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I thought, wow. I remember those days. I thought for nostalgia reasons, I got silver. I

Mikah Sargent (01:35:31):
Wished I had the silver one when I was at the event yesterday, because right as the event started, the sun was still beating down on us and this darker color was absorbing heat. So I had this on my lap. I put my hands on and about burned my hands. Luckily, as the event went on, the sun moved behind us. So it wasn't as much of an issue. But Dan Mor had this silver one and I thought, oh, I wish I had that one.

Leo Laporte (01:35:52):
I've also discovered it's very handy for blinding people. The keynote speakers with your laptop when you hold it up and show it to them. This is the Andy, you coined this and I love this. The what is it? A feature, quilt Feature. Feature quilt. I love that. It's a feature quilt for the MacBook Air 15. It's mag safe touch. Id really, actually you don't even need this. It's exactly the same as the 13.3. Yeah. It's just a little bit bigger. And interestingly, I did some calculations. I was very pleased to see same dots per inch as the 13.6, which

Mikah Sargent (01:36:30):
Means we were wondering,

Leo Laporte (01:36:31):
I'm gonna get an inch more. I'm gonna get about 200 pixels more top to bottom. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So that's an inch more. And I think a little more than an inch on the sides. So it will give me more real estate. I was worried that the dots per inch, the pixels per inch were gonna go down. And so it would just be bigger icons. But no good news.

Mikah Sargent (01:36:51):
I think honestly, also the best thing about this is that it resulted in the price drop on the 13

Leo Laporte (01:36:57):
Fifth. Yeah. A hundred bucks off on the 13 and on the M one. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So this is Apple's best selling Macintosh and will continue to do so. I think the 15 inch, yeah, they're smart to do this. It's like there will be a real market for it. They also are giving you a 10 core gpu, which was one of the things you had to do in a, in an a in UPS upsell, a build order for the the 13.6 inch. And they're giving you the six peakers sound system that the MacBook Pro has. That was one thing I was unhappy with on the MacBook Air was the sound wasn't great and I missed Lisa's MacBook Pro 14 sounds so good.

Mikah Sargent (01:37:34):
Oh, wow. I never listened to audio out of this thing.

Leo Laporte (01:37:37):
Yeah. Really Sounds good. 24 gigs of memory. The max. That's a little disappointing. Two terabytes of storage. I, that's what good, I think they're

Alex Lindsay (01:37:44):
Actually, yeah. I think that they're making a pretty good separation between the pro and the mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and the air. The error is great. It's got a, a lot of real estate. It's definitely not a pro computer. No. Like, it's not like, and I don't think we have any mistakes as pro users that, that we should be using in air to do what we do. But

Leo Laporte (01:37:59):
The M two is so good.

Alex Lindsay (01:38:00):

Leo Laporte (01:38:01):
It's so good that you really can do a lot. I mean, I, okay. I'm not gonna do photogrammetry, but it's great for what I, what most people do. Right?

Alex Lindsay (01:38:09):
Yeah. I I I think that for most people who are not doing a lot of, you know, media and so on and so forth, I think it's gonna be great. I I think that, you know, creating

Leo Laporte (01:38:16):
Media, not viewing media. Creating

Alex Lindsay (01:38:17):
Media. Creating media. Yes. A hundred percent. Yeah. And so I think that the extra, the, the two extra Thunderbolt is very important. Anytime I'm on the road with a MacBook Pro, I use all of those ports. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:38:30):
They're smart to limit the ram and to limit the ports because that's what, and makes it less than a pro.

Alex Lindsay (01:38:36):
And I would love to make the pro ones beefier. You know, I would, I would love to add a eighth of an inch to it and have it last 50% longer or a hundred percent longer. Cuz you know, when you're typing in numbers, it's, it's 18 hours or whatever. But when I'm rendering in compressor or C 4d right. It's like three hours. And so I Oh wow. So when, yeah. So, so I, I need to you know, I I, we definitely need you know, I think the Mac Pros, I'd love to see them get beefier and thicker and more powerful and, and have the airs continue to hold that space so that Apple's not trying to do the same thing with both of them.

Leo Laporte (01:39:10):
This is the GarageBand iMovie computer. You're looking at the final cut Logic computer. And that's

Alex Lindsay (01:39:16):
The difference. I'll, I'll be honest, final cut and logic I'm sure would run for many small projects would run just fine on the air. Yeah. Where it becomes problematic is, again, when, when you start to, to do long renders, it's gonna be heat. You know, there, there's going to be some heat throttling there on long renders as well as the lack of thunderbolt ports is a big deal. Cause one of 'em is power, I think. Yeah. Oh no, it

Leo Laporte (01:39:36):
Has, it has a, no, it has a mag safe. It has a, so it's mag safe plus two weirdly 18 hours battery life across the line. There's no improvement. Even though you have more space. I'm thinking maybe if someone's, that's why

Alex Lindsay (01:39:47):
They have six speaker, is that a point? Like make sure Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:39:49):
The speaker is the 10 core base. So, do I need more battery or do I need more speaker? I want more speaker. I don't, I think that was a good 18 hours is plenty for me. And that's, they say you watching,

Alex Lindsay (01:39:59):
Maybe using an error. I think it's fine. I think if you're using a Mac again, cuz it's not That's Well, good news use case.

Leo Laporte (01:40:04):
Guess what? They also updated the MAX Studios to massive horsepower, right?

Alex Lindsay (01:40:11):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

Leo Laporte (01:40:12):
M two Ultra

Alex Lindsay (01:40:13):
Max Studios look great.

Leo Laporte (01:40:14):
Is the, the, the largest chip 76 core gpu 24 core cpu mm-hmm. <Affirmative> up to now, I have to say for a pro I've been told, I, I can't imagine this 192 gigabytes of RAM is not enough.

Alex Lindsay (01:40:29):
It's, it, it's pretty good. I mean, like, there's not that many people. I mean, well, when you get into really big renders and photogrammetry and other things like that, there's and, and science calculations. And so, so there's a bunch of things that you have to hold all in RAM at one time. And so 1 92 can be limited, but that, that market is crazy small. Yeah. Like, there's one thing to be small market and then there's to be a tiny, tiny little market that, that, that would need that, that much more ram. But, but I do think that, that for the most part, 192 is a pretty, I mean, it's amazing. I had to write a three page paper to go from 128 megabytes of RAM to, to 192 megabytes of ram megabytes bytes for Star Wars megabytes. And that's what I was rendering. Yeah. You know, and so

Leo Laporte (01:41:12):
No, 190 whos quite a bit <laugh>.

Alex Lindsay (01:41:14):
So much, so much so,

Leo Laporte (01:41:16):
And that's an important point. Somebody saying you mean of GPU memory? No. Of unified memory. So that is a point, is that your GPU can use it. So it's, you know, it's

Alex Lindsay (01:41:26):
That's stunning. Yeah. That's

Leo Laporte (01:41:28):
A lot for a gpu. Yeah. they mention it on the, the feature quilt for the Mac studios, but it's, I think also true of all M two s. There's a neural engine. And the, the key on this is very interesting because Microsoft, which is still stuck with Qualcom and Intel has been hurting because of this. They've been talking about NPUs for a long time. They coined the term neural processing unit, but only the Qualcomm chips have NPUs. They're waiting for this fall when Intel will announce Meteor Lake and, and put out an NPU based Intel platform. So Apple has a real advantage because all of their hardware now comes with a neural processing engine. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, that's a big deal, I think. Not not for generating, not you don't use it for generating models, but you use it for all of the kinds of things running Running. Yeah. It's

Mikah Sargent (01:42:20):
Kind of wild how much that, you know, even we looked at is it, wow. And I can't think of his name the law, is it Moore's Law?

Leo Laporte (01:42:29):
Yeah. Gordon Moore. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (01:42:30):
Yeah. So Moore's Law when sort of modern computer architecture folks have tried to look at how to sort of keep that vision alive, they have turned increasingly to these neural engines as a way to sort of figure out how to bridge the gap between how much smaller we can now make transistors versus what we would expect to see according to Moore's Law. And so, yes, it's every aspect of your use of the machine where that neural engine is trying to do things in a way that is smarter, which then makes it work faster, makes it process better.

Leo Laporte (01:43:04):
31.6 trillion operations per second. <Laugh>, I

Mikah Sargent (01:43:08):
Can't fathom <laugh>, how much is 31.6 trillion? Right? It's a lot. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:43:15):
You know, we're talking terra flops here. This is, this is, you know, terra tariff flops. This is incredible. And

Alex Lindsay (01:43:21):
By the way, the, the, the eight, the ak playback, they're talking about a lot of streams of playback. The ak sounds esoteric until you think about the headset. <Laugh> Yeah. The headset isn't eight ak,

Leo Laporte (01:43:31):
There's two 4K screens. AK solutions. Yep. Yeah. 800 gigabytes per second memory bandwidths on the Max Studio. I have to say, I have the original Mac studio, and I have never felt in any way harmed or

Mikah Sargent (01:43:45):
Hampered. I didn't have the one that's not ultra. I've never

Leo Laporte (01:43:46):
Felt hampers. I have a, I have a pro Lisa got the max M one. And these are way faster than I need. So these are impressive. I didn't ask this. Did they increase the number of displays the MacBook Air could handle? No, they did not. I dunno.

Andy Ihnatko (01:44:05):
But I think it's, it's still

Leo Laporte (01:44:06):
One external, still

Andy Ihnatko (01:44:07):
A 6k, but still it is a really, really good external display. Like

Leo Laporte (01:44:10):
Six. Yeah. Really good. And, and yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:44:13):
And, and the great, I hate, I, I'm sorry that Apple has beaten me down to this level, but I was so excited that it still has a headphone jack. Thank you Apple for not removing headphone jack from

Leo Laporte (01:44:21):
The laptop. Isn't that sad? The courage for it. I still use

Alex Lindsay (01:44:23):
One of my, my studio. It's, it's, I I definitely still use one of my studio if I really need to pick Oh yeah. Where the

Leo Laporte (01:44:30):
I use it. Are you kidding?

Alex Lindsay (01:44:31):
Yeah. I mean, I'm not using it right now, but I, but I need,

Leo Laporte (01:44:34):
No, I, I have an extension cable plugged into it, so if I need to, I can plug the headphones into it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> the new studio will support up to six <laugh>. Count 'em six Pro display Xds. I want six now. Forget vr, I dare you. Forget Vision Pro. I'm gonna spend 10 times as much <laugh>, and I'm gonna have my, I don't have to wear a helmet. I'll just sit down. It'll be great.

Alex Lindsay (01:45:00):
Well, I have six right now. I I coming the same course you do, but there's Yeah, rag, of course

Leo Laporte (01:45:05):
You do

Andy Ihnatko (01:45:05):
The, the Nora set at the end of war games. That is my ideal <laugh> ideal work setup. I

Alex Lindsay (01:45:12):
Thought that was a good start.

Leo Laporte (01:45:14):
So this studio really for I would say the vast majority of people is as much as one would ever need.

Alex Lindsay (01:45:23):
Yeah. I mean, I think that the big, the, the only thing that you really, what you get with the, the pro as you, as you start to move up is the, is the increased number of lanes of, of Thunderbolt and the P C I A, the, the, the slots. You know, so happy being able to add six cards for IO and being able to have a lot more, I a lot more lanes for the Thunderbolt or the big, a

Leo Laporte (01:45:43):
Big jumper. Well, I think this is important because yes, they finally said we have a Mac Pro. Same. It's the same case, but it's, it's, it got a shrink ray a little bit. I can't tell. I couldn't tell. Did you see

Mikah Sargent (01:45:55):
It? Yeah, I actually got, there was video of that as well.

Leo Laporte (01:45:56):
Is it cute? Little toaster guys?

Andy Ihnatko (01:45:58):
It's supposed to wash it in cold. Little bigger than,

Mikah Sargent (01:45:59):
That's about size of a bread box. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:46:02):
Bread box size,

Mikah Sargent (01:46:02):
Bread box size computer. I will say this. Apple.

Leo Laporte (01:46:06):
See that looks, look, that looks little. It's definitely smaller next to the XDR display. That looks good.

Andy Ihnatko (01:46:12):
It's, it's, it's like the new Mac two ci.

Leo Laporte (01:46:15):
Yeah. It's really cute.

Alex Lindsay (01:46:16):
I love that computer. I got it.

Andy Ihnatko (01:46:18):
Frog Design lost, like the contract for, for industrial design and <laugh>. I've done

Mikah Sargent (01:46:23):
That I think is kind of a cool look at the end

Leo Laporte (01:46:25):
And you can open it up. So this is, I have to say, there isn't a lot of technical difference between No. The Mac Studio with the M two Ultra and the Mac Pro with the M two Ultra, and

Mikah Sargent (01:46:34):
That is on purpose. Apple and talking with journalists has positioned these two models as options. The M two Ultra Mac Studio is meant to be the one for people, for companies or whomever who wanna do a lot of thinking that, who just want to, I need to, I need the machine that just does what I need it to do. You get it. It's all in one package, I should say. Thinking and tinkering. Wait,

Leo Laporte (01:46:58):
134 billion transistors. For people who don't wanna do any thinking,

Mikah Sargent (01:47:01):
Thi this is yes. In, in trying to pick what they're after, outsource, you get this machine, it does what you need it to do. Whereas if you want to tinker, if you want to play around and build purpose, build exactly what you want, that's where the Mac Pro comes in. It's, they're, they're both fantastic machines. It's the choice between the two.

Alex Lindsay (01:47:19):
And I love that. I love what Apple did there, which is that we don't feel like we're getting less to buy a studio. We can break out the, the, the Mac Studio and have it be a great computer to do. If I'm a 3d, if I'm doing 3D rendering, I, I feel like I can just go to the Mac Studio as easily as I could go to the Mac Pro. But if I need to do video io, then I know that I need the Mac Pro. I probably want the Mac Pro because I'm now going to want all, like when I do a video production with my studio, like if I'm using Memo Live and I, you know, wire all those things in, I'm using literally every port on the studio. Like it is every, there's a wire going into each one of those for the monitor outs, the camera ends, the, all the other things. You know, I would much rather, that's the kind of thing I'd rather do on a, on a Mac Pro. And so you

Leo Laporte (01:48:01):
Are paying for that capability. So Keith five 12 in our I R C configured a Max Studio and a Mac Pro with the same base hardware, 24 Core cpu, 60 core G P U, the maxed out ram. And that's interesting. This, the pro only goes to 192 gigs as well. He put a terabyte s s d in, now this is in the, the uk. So it was 5,799 pounds for the studio. 8,799 pounds for the Mac Pro. So for those piece, those PCI four lanes

Mikah Sargent (01:48:36):
And way more Thunderbolt ports,

Leo Laporte (01:48:37):
<Laugh> way more Thunderball ports.

Alex Lindsay (01:48:40):
And if you're, it's again, if you know what you need, then, then you need that. Like it's, I

Leo Laporte (01:48:44):
Have lot more. But you, you're gonna get some I invited

Mikah Sargent (01:48:46):
Comparison to the Intel Max Pro <laugh>, which was what?

Alex Lindsay (01:48:50):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, well,

Leo Laporte (01:48:51):
And that, by the way, 40

Mikah Sargent (01:48:52):

Leo Laporte (01:48:52):
Cheaper. You can stop comparing your Intel, your Yeah. Intel Max with your Mac, apple, Silicon Max. Nobody's buying those guys. Those are not, they're still,

Alex Lindsay (01:49:03):
They're still, I don't Did they stop

Leo Laporte (01:49:05):
Selling? They're still selling them. I know they're

Alex Lindsay (01:49:06):
Selling 'em. There are things that they're

Leo Laporte (01:49:08):
Yeah, well, like a discre sheet to you factor. You want a radi on card in there. Guess what? You ain't putting it in the NIM Mac Pro

Alex Lindsay (01:49:15):
Or that, that much Ram or, you know, there's a couple different things that that one still does that the other that, that the new one doesn't. So it's, there's definitely reasons to have the intel.

Leo Laporte (01:49:23):
Yeah, no, I understand. But there's no reason to compare your performance to the Intel. That's just, that's just like hand waving. I think they'll

Mikah Sargent (01:49:30):
Stop doing it now that they

Leo Laporte (01:49:31):
Can stop.

Mikah Sargent (01:49:32):
Yeah. Cause they've made it <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:49:34):
So the, the most expensive at this point, the most expensive M two Ultra Mac Pro is $40,000 cheaper according to the Verge than the maxed out Intel version. I think that's probably the Ram. Cuz the Intel one would go to two, two and a half terabytes of Ram, right? It was, it was, it was a lot

Alex Lindsay (01:49:51):
More. It's something insane. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:49:52):

Alex Lindsay (01:49:52):
Insane, but something something really

Leo Laporte (01:49:54):
High. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it's, it's apples and oranges at that point. People though, I mean, so tell me about this. This is the issue. I think the g the discreet G P U, even though you have P C I bus on there, what can you put is no

Alex Lindsay (01:50:10):
Slots. I mean the, well like video cards, you know, for one, so video and audio IO cards are io all things that you would, it's for io. So I, it's really it. I think that that's the, I don't know if that's the only market, but that's the biggest market. You can also put in more hard drive. You can put in solid state hard drive SSDs, you know hard. Yeah. So you can put in these M vm, very large M B M E cards that are like 32 terabytes or whatever Right. That you can drop into there. So there's definitely some you know, but IO drive systems, network systems, you know, but, but things getting in and out of the computer it's not gonna do a gpu, which is unfortunate. I mean, a lot of us wish that we could put an Nvidia card in because there's a bunch of like, custom processes in the Nvidia card.

Leo Laporte (01:50:51):
You got Coda cores and you, you know, you can't,

Alex Lindsay (01:50:54):
But that's never gonna happen. Yeah. Keep that up. So, so the but so the you know, but I, but I, I, you know, it's not that we don't want them, we just stop thinking about it <laugh> so it's too far away. Yeah. But, but the but the I think that it's, it's, it's, you know, you have a incredible workhorse of a, you know, like, so for instance, we were talking about it this morning on office hours that that zoom, you know, if, if, if we, if we could get enough bandwidth, we could lit pull 48, 48 individual 10 P signals out of that computer with the cards. You just drop the cards in that we buy Sonet boxes for right now mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And you'd have one box pulling 48. And which sounds crazy unless you're doing a virtual event. You know, so if you're doing an event, you wanna grab everybody and be able to jump between everybody and move around. Having all those ISOs might, you know, might make sense. So, so those are things about, right now there's other, other limitations, but it's, it's not,

Leo Laporte (01:51:44):
It's for a very specific, you know, it

Alex Lindsay (01:51:48):
Absolutely is. Well, and it's gonna be, it's so, yes, it's gonna be for, what it should be is for a very specific group of people. But, you know, I live in Marin and you know, the, the, there's a lot of Jeeps in Marin <laugh>, and they're all super clean. They're not going

Leo Laporte (01:52:04):
Off road.

Alex Lindsay (01:52:04):
There's no Deads <laugh>, no one's using that Jeep for what? The way, I mean, they have, and, and we're talking about the Rubicons, you know, there's a lot of Rubicons in, in Marin that are pristine, you know, and so, and they even have all the rigs and everything else. So there's a market there for the folks that I would

Leo Laporte (01:52:19):
Buy it for that case if, if I had more money than Cent. That's a beautiful, it's a beautiful, it said Johnny Cheese gra it's gorgeous.

Alex Lindsay (01:52:26):
It's gonna be like Hollywood producers that have it on their desk and, you know, all that.

Leo Laporte (01:52:30):
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't get the promise one block of cheese on it. The promise Pegasus R four i 32 terabyte raid module for the Mac, bro. Yeah. Plug it right in. That gives you 32 terabytes for three grand. You know, that's actually,

Alex Lindsay (01:52:45):
That's the kind of thing. Not

Leo Laporte (01:52:46):

Alex Lindsay (01:52:47):
It's pretty good deal. And less

Leo Laporte (01:52:48):
Than the Vision Pro headset <laugh>. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (01:52:51):
You can, you can put enough, enough hard drive space into that, into the computer that, that you can get yourself into an enormous amount of trouble. Like if you get bad <laugh>, you know, like, it's like, it's like, it's like I got 192 terabytes of Drive space in there and the whole thing is

Leo Laporte (01:53:04):
South. So you what they, I, it breaks my heart. Disney just fired the woman who saved Toy Story two, you know this story, right? They acc <laugh>, somebody accidentally deleted the renders for Toy Story two <laugh>, the movie basically was deleted, and then they went to the backups. And the backups weren't good cuz they hadn't misconfigured e l t they thought they were gonna lose the movie. Right? Right. Then somebody says, you know, I was bringing this at home, working at home. I think I have all the files at home. She probably had the Promise 32 Terrified <laugh>. I mean, how big is Toy Story two? Anyway, they rushed over to her house, put the computer like in a egg carton, you know, and brought it back and crossed their fingers. Cuz that's like years of work down the tubes. Wow. They saved toy stories too. This poor person. I think she's a woman. I, I, I'm judging from the

Andy Ihnatko (01:54:06):
Name. I, I believe so. I I think she was on pregnancy leave either before or after delivering.

Leo Laporte (01:54:10):
That's right. But yeah, that's, that's why she was working at home. That's,

Andy Ihnatko (01:54:12):
That's what I recall. And of course, you know, you know how the poor, the, the person who deleted everything, it was like the classic <laugh> Andrew, Andrew angering a certain line that says, oh, I'll just delete everything from this folder. And then he puts a hyphen in there that shouldn't there and said, oh no, do this recursively to every single volume that's attached. Like, oh dear.

Leo Laporte (01:54:32):
So Galen Susman saved the movie in BA in 1998 cuz she had it at home.

Alex Lindsay (01:54:38):
It's not the person who hit the lead that, that, that was the problem. It was whoever build an architecture that

Leo Laporte (01:54:43):
Allowed that architecture,

Alex Lindsay (01:54:44):
The one that allowed one person to do it without turning two keys. You know, like, it's, it's,

Andy Ihnatko (01:54:48):
And, and, and in addition, like backups doesn't mean you back it up and then you put the, the cartridge someplace. Like you periodically test your backup to make sure that your backups

Leo Laporte (01:54:58):
Are good. So there's a big like, screw up. Everybody had everybody, but sad to say, now this was 1998, she's still was still at Pixar, Disney in their layoffs. I hope they laid off the guy who deleted the files. Anyway, <laugh> <laugh>. But unfortunately Galen Sessman is is one of the people that has been laid off.

Andy Ihnatko (01:55:18):
He's, he's still at the company. He's still like buried underneath the concrete piling from the new campus where he is been for the past 13 years. Don't worry, he'll be with, he'll be at Pixar for a very, very long time. He'll outlast everybody.

Leo Laporte (01:55:30):
Yeah. yeah. You think you'd have a job for life if you saved Toy's Story too, but okay. It turns out it's only 25 years. That's Yeah. That's all you, that's all you get. That's all you get. So the Mac Pro is here. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hall, we can all stop thinking about it. The two Macs that were not updated, the Mac mini, well, that just got updated. So I understand that. And I think there are probably a few people saying, where's my iMac? We think there're, that's continuing. Is it over? Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (01:56:03):
I don't think it's a priority in any way, shape or form.

Leo Laporte (01:56:06):
You got the studio, well, Lisa, for instance still uses an iMac in her office. It's getting flaky and old and she wants a new one. I said, honey, you're not gonna like the new one. It's not 27 inches, it's 21 inches <laugh>.

Alex Lindsay (01:56:22):
Well, and that's the, that's the whole thing. I think they, they have like, here's, people still want that, you know, and as long as it sells enough to make it worth it, I think they'll keep on releasing it. But I think that they definitely, the, the, the Mac Mini is in a different place now where it, it's, it's much more modular. You can decide, you know, what you want. It's a lot less expensive. You know, the the thing that really wears out is the screen and the screen size. And now you can buy a bigger screen for it. And I don't really think that, I mean, I just, now I say that I just bought an an iMac for my, my parents-in-law because they had one before and it's all in one place and you can plug it all in and it just works. And yeah, I, I definitely see the value of keeping something like that around. But, but I think that for almost everybody, I think the Mac Mini makes more sense.

Leo Laporte (01:57:04):
Can we just say that Apple's not gonna make another one? Or is they still somewhere back in the labs have a 32 inch?

Alex Lindsay (01:57:11):
I wouldn't be surprised if they don't do updates. I don't think I getting a larger one. I very much doubt. I think it's 21 inches. It's gonna be, you know, it's not gonna get much. It maybe gets up to 24 at some point for whatever reason, but it's never gonna be another big one. Yeah. it is going to be a, you know, it's going to be an entry level computer. They're not gonna make a pro version of it. They've got too many other pro things that are out there. So I think that it's gonna be a, you know, a basic computer for kids that are going to school or, or, or folks that are retired and just want something that they can turn on.

Andy Ihnatko (01:57:39):
It's gonna be the computer you buy in, in 12 packs, either because you have a small company or a school classroom. <Laugh> No, I'm, I'm serious. Like that's, that's, yeah, it's ballistic box. Other, otherwise Apple, anyone who, I think anybody who comes into an Apple store looking for an iMac, there is a, there is a training video that says try to get him to buy a MacBook Air for god's sake.

Leo Laporte (01:57:57):
Let's helpful, you know, a studio with a nice display. That's what I'm working on. Lisa, we'll get you a nice display. If we can get one that matches the other display you're using, we get a studio, you won't know it's not an iMac, but you'll be happier. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because it's gonna be modular and it's gonna be faster and Well,

Andy Ihnatko (01:58:11):
And, and, but

Alex Lindsay (01:58:11):
It won't

Andy Ihnatko (01:58:12):
Be yellow <laugh> mean wouldn't the yellow one

Alex Lindsay (01:58:15):
In, in Rwanda we had, you know, some voltage issues and, and everything else going up and down. And over time, the imax, we got 40 imax. Yeah, makes sense. You know, back in the day. Yeah. And they, and repairing them was super, super expensive. We should

Leo Laporte (01:58:25):
Explain he was teaching. So these were classes. It was school.

Alex Lindsay (01:58:27):
Yeah. School in Rwanda. Yeah. And, and, and and the, the problem that we've had is that, is that it's replacing them after the, you know, the power supply or whatever it's getting, trying to fix an iMac is we can't No. Non-Trivial. And so with a, at the same, we could for the same cost, we could have just, if we had monitors instead, we could have just got another Mac mini.

Leo Laporte (01:58:47):
Actually, I think we're getting her mini right John. I think we're just gonna get her an ice.

Alex Lindsay (01:58:51):
They're, they're really nice. Yeah, they're

Leo Laporte (01:58:52):
Fine. That's all she

Alex Lindsay (01:58:53):
Needs. Yeah. if you can have any big curve around monitor or anything else. She has

Leo Laporte (01:58:57):
A 49 inch curve. Yeah. Curve around monitor and then the iMac. So I think we may get a matching and now she's gonna be two. Oh man. 2 49 inch

Alex Lindsay (01:59:07):
Curve around two vertical side.

Leo Laporte (01:59:11):
That's your vision.

Alex Lindsay (01:59:12):
Or if you had four of them, you could have, you could have, you can go two

Leo Laporte (01:59:15):
Up. Imagine

Alex Lindsay (01:59:16):
Over. Yes. We're trying to put, that's what

Leo Laporte (01:59:21):
<Laugh> I I

Alex Lindsay (01:59:22):
Can see a picture of it. I don't need it, but I didn't see a picture.

Leo Laporte (01:59:24):
I, I'll tell you what I'm saving my money for. I'm not gonna buy the vision helmet. I'm gonna buy the 49 inch QD od curved monitor that somebody's selling. I can't remember if it's LG or, but that's the monitor, right? It's a, you know, it's a gaming monitor I

Alex Lindsay (01:59:42):
Guess. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:59:43):
It's perfect. <Laugh>. Oh, that's what I'm saving my money for. I'm msi I guess it is. Oh really? Yeah. Oh, Samsung too. Wait, so there are more? Yeah, I have a Q DED tv, which is incredible. Really? It's the brightest os out there. They're really gorgeous. Kind of stunning. So Samsung is gonna make a Q ded. It's the OSCI G nine available for a 12,000.

Alex Lindsay (02:00:07):
Do you feel like you're getting a suntan? I can't

Leo Laporte (02:00:09):
Afford a G six, but I'm getting a G nine <laugh>.

Alex Lindsay (02:00:12):
Right, right, right. Exactly. <laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:00:16):
It's not available yet, but it's, if it comes down to that of the Vision Pro, that's gonna be, do you

Alex Lindsay (02:00:21):
Feel the heat from the screen?

Leo Laporte (02:00:23):
No. QD os are not they're not hot. They're nice. We were

Alex Lindsay (02:00:27):
Just, we just had a, we were a snare, you know, it's a big filming thing over the weekend. They're not like plasmas. They had like a wall of, of these, of these lights. And they said, we, we asked them, they said they get really bright and they can you turn the whole wall on. And when they turned it on, woo. It's literally changed the temperature. Like we were saying, like, whoa, it wasn't, it was bright. We just, it's a lot of heat.

Leo Laporte (02:00:48):
So we gotta talk about software. So that was the hardware. Anybody buying any of that stuff? Any, anything? I'm, I'm the only one getting the 15 inch. I'll bring it in next week.

Alex Lindsay (02:01:00):
I'm not gonna get the Pro right now, but I probably will get pro this year. Sometimes

Leo Laporte (02:01:02):
If I, I, like I said, that M one studio is really sweet

Alex Lindsay (02:01:06):
Still. I mean, the reason that I got the, the one the studio was, and I didn't go for the Ultra was I was like, oh, I'm gonna buy this. You knew you were gonna buy the pro. Alright. The funny thing is, is that I, I'm gonna buy the Mac Pro, but I'm not gonna spend more than $12,000. Like literally that's what I said. I was like, I'm not gonna get some $60,000 machine. And now I don't, I can't afford it right now, but, but maybe sometime later this year, I'll, I'll sell a kidney or something. Well, let's

Leo Laporte (02:01:27):
Let's configure Alex's Mac Pro. Shall we? Let's do it. Let's put it, let's put it all together. It's fun spending other people's money. <Laugh>. now Mac Pro starts at 7,000.

Alex Lindsay (02:01:42):
No, see, I got some room. Let's, let's, let's see,

Leo Laporte (02:01:44):
Let's see. We got some room. All right. You probably want the thousand dollars. Yeah. Just upsell on the process

Alex Lindsay (02:01:50):
In there. I got the room. I got the room. Okay. Okay.

Leo Laporte (02:01:53):
60 core GPU versus 76. I think you want the now Ram.

Alex Lindsay (02:01:57):
All of it. All of it.

Leo Laporte (02:01:59):
Okay. It's only 16 rendering. Now we're at 10,000. I hate to tell you,

Alex Lindsay (02:02:02):
I'm still under. And then you need to, so here's the deal is the mistake I made with the studio is I bought one terabyte of drives. And the drives are so fast that you should just get the eight.

Leo Laporte (02:02:12):
The internals are fast. But remember, we can't get that promise card.

Alex Lindsay (02:02:15):
I don't think it's, I still don't think it's gonna be as fast as, as the internal drive speed.

Leo Laporte (02:02:19):
Yeah. So we put eight terabytes of storage. You don't need the f You don't need the wheels. No. Skip out on the $400. Skip the $400 wheels. By the way, I'm glad to see they kept the wheels. <Laugh>. Yes. Glad to see they kept the wheels. They're not cheap. That's cause they made a bunch of them. That's all you need. Right? And then we're 11 7 99. That's nothing.

Alex Lindsay (02:02:37):
Now with taxes, I probably go over

Leo Laporte (02:02:39):
So, well, let's see. I should put this on my Apple card. That's practically free. Oh, do you need a new, do you need a xdr? Well, I sure would like that it's only five grand. Oh, wait a minute. I need nano texture glass.

Alex Lindsay (02:02:52):
Oh no, I don't want

Leo Laporte (02:02:53):
No, no. Comes with a rag. <Laugh>. Okay, <laugh>.

Alex Lindsay (02:02:58):
Because I don't get the monitor, I don't get the, I don't want the stand.

Leo Laporte (02:03:00):
See, John, couldn't, I, I'm thinking instead of having this crappy Lenovo, I could have an XDR display here on a visa mount. You can't touch it. Oh, you can't touch it. Sure. You can touch it. You can touch, it just won't do

Andy Ihnatko (02:03:12):
Anything. It

Alex Lindsay (02:03:13):
Just doesn't do anything when you touch it. So that's,

Leo Laporte (02:03:15):
People were mad. I was really interested. So many people were mad that Apple didn't, you know, release the Vision Pro, but did not release a touchscreen Mac. Oh, come on. Come on, man. I don't want to touch my mouth. Nobody. I swear to God I have a lot of touchscreen laptops. Yes. And they're all Never touch it. I hate it. Never even touch this one. Oh, he

Andy Ihnatko (02:03:33):
Touched it when I,

Alex Lindsay (02:03:34):
I love it on my iPad with my keyboard and

Leo Laporte (02:03:36):
My iPad never just can't touch this.

Alex Lindsay (02:03:38):
Love that. But I do not I I do not need it on my back. No.

Andy Ihnatko (02:03:43):
When I, when, when I, when I do use it, I enjoy it. But that's not something that I need all the time. I, I'll have to say that. I think that, I think that one of the reasons why apple decided to put those like downward firing cameras on the, on the, on the headset. So you can do like, touch controls, like without having to lift your hands, is that they're, they're, they know that all of us would be jumping on them for every time Apple have said people. No. The reason why we don't do touch screens on the Mac is people don't want to have to raise their hands to use the computers. Like, ah, damn. I had, I had a high 800 word think piece all lined up. Now can, how

Leo Laporte (02:04:13):
Long can we all, we only have 15 more minutes in the show. Everybody stick your arm out if you can hold it out for that 15 minutes.

Alex Lindsay (02:04:20):
Right? I can't

Leo Laporte (02:04:21):
Believe how many people are doing it <laugh>.

Andy Ihnatko (02:04:23):
Well, I don't, I don't know what, I wanna know what I get if I do it. Nothing.

Leo Laporte (02:04:27):
<Laugh> nothing. You're gonna touchscreen Mac iOS 17 looks good. In fact, you, you could actually by accident, they put out the developer version for everybody. So be careful. The, the public pre preview is next month is in July. I'm tempted. I don't want to get rid of hay on Siri. Siri is way over responsive. Just try saying, sir, you do

Mikah Sargent (02:04:49):
Have options. Okay. So

Leo Laporte (02:04:50):
You can

Mikah Sargent (02:04:51):
Choose how, if you wanna keep it. Hey, if you want to, I'd like

Leo Laporte (02:04:53):
Have it more than hay. Like, Ooh. Hey, please listen here. You, you.

Mikah Sargent (02:04:57):
Hey. I would recommend that if you want to give this a go as the you folks who are developers and who are developers here

Leo Laporte (02:05:05):
Is the host of iOS. Today's

Mikah Sargent (02:05:07):
Do iPad os not idea iOS. Because good idea. Excuse Mary this morning had to completely restore her phone because of a bug in iOS before the show started. So

Leo Laporte (02:05:17):
She's using the developer edition. Yeah,

Mikah Sargent (02:05:19):
She's using developer betas for everything. Of course. I haven't installed any yet. I I'm usually a lot quicker, but I was there so I just haven't had time. Yeah. I will not be installing, I think this iOS 17,

Leo Laporte (02:05:30):
I'll tell you what I want, but

Mikah Sargent (02:05:31):
Ipad os for sure.

Leo Laporte (02:05:32):
I think the standby's cool,

Mikah Sargent (02:05:34):
Right? Standby's really

Leo Laporte (02:05:35):
Cool. Android has had this, if you use the the pixel stand, we're all trying

Alex Lindsay (02:05:39):
To figure out what happened to the little who made, where's the stand, where did that stand

Leo Laporte (02:05:42):
Come from? It's just some mag safe thing. Any MagSafe stand would work.

Alex Lindsay (02:05:47):
Sure. Okay. Let's just, but it looked like one specific, it

Leo Laporte (02:05:50):
Looked like I was waiting for them to say only $99 for this. Finally crafted aluminum mag safe stand. So it turns your iPhone into a bedside. Actually, I guess the iPad too. Into a bedside clock.

Mikah Sargent (02:06:02):
Yeah. It's not called standby on iPad though. It's just that you've got you have that capability. Customized lock screens and stuff. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:06:08):
Name drop looks great to me. It's gonna, it's the way to exchange business cards. It goes along with contact posters. So you will now make a contact poster with your face or your avatar or emoji or whatever picture of your dog. It doesn't matter your name, contact information. And then it can be your business card. And now you and I will meet and I will tap my phone to yours,

Mikah Sargent (02:06:28):
By the way. But only Stan is from 12 South and it's available in the Apple store. Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:06:32):
12 South makes good stuff. Yeah. So that is a real, but

Alex Lindsay (02:06:34):
Only to the iPhone. Right? So, so you'll you'll have oh, 12 South. Okay.

Mikah Sargent (02:06:37):
12 south. That's the makeup

Alex Lindsay (02:06:38):
You make great stuff. But, but how do you count? How do you connect with your Android friends? No.

Leo Laporte (02:06:43):
Oh, forget who uses Android.

Alex Lindsay (02:06:45):
That'll be a green bubble. You might as well be a green double at that point. I'm like,

Leo Laporte (02:06:48):
Oh, all of this stuff is guaranteed to piss off an Android users. I can tell you exactly. You'll be sending, so you can make, now that you can always make stickers, which was a cool feature. You press and hold Mikah's face and then drag it and now I gotta mic a head sticker. Yeah. But I can now do it with a live picture. Right. So that he could be moving.

Mikah Sargent (02:07:05):
And none of that works between iOS 17 and Iowa 16. Cuz Rosemary is trying to send me a bunch of them this morning. So, so

Leo Laporte (02:07:11):

Mikah Sargent (02:07:12):
You'll have to wait.

Leo Laporte (02:07:12):
So Green bubbles are everybody who except iOS. Exactly. 17. Okay. I think that's cool. Live voicemail with transcriptions. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Nice. Nice. For the best features of the, of the

Mikah Sargent (02:07:23):
Google Pixel, I have to tell you. So this is an duo interesting

Leo Laporte (02:07:26):
Duo, right? It's the duo program that does that.

Mikah Sargent (02:07:28):
Something interesting I learned yesterday about that live voicemail feature is Apple is kind of spoofing this, it is something that happens locally on the device. And what is happening is the phone is essentially answering the call and then transcribing with the voice. Like it plays your voicemail back and transcribes the conversation that takes place. And if you choose to hit answer, then all it's doing is letting you into the call that it's already taken. Otherwise it

Leo Laporte (02:07:56):
Has to, to do that so that way it

Mikah Sargent (02:07:57):
Doesn't have to make it on device carrier. Exactly.

Leo Laporte (02:07:59):
Yeah. Makes it on device. I think that's fine. I don't, I don't Yeah,

Mikah Sargent (02:08:02):
No. That I think it's a good thing. I thought, yeah,

Leo Laporte (02:08:04):
I think that's how Google, it's a pro

Mikah Sargent (02:08:05):
Actually not a con. Yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:08:07):
They've added ladies and gentlemen, the application you've all been waiting for <laugh> Journal, journal

Mikah Sargent (02:08:14):

Leo Laporte (02:08:16):
You can, it's kind of like day one, but it's gonna, it's a health thing, right? It's gonna have prompts. Yeah. It's going to just say, be grateful. What are you grateful for today? That kind of thing. I

Mikah Sargent (02:08:24):
Like you can look through your whole system and the activities that you're doing. Yes. And so I can imagine, you know, I'm go, we go to an undisclosed location where they show us what it's like to make sound for movies. I don't know what that

Leo Laporte (02:08:35):
Is, dunno where that would be. But

Mikah Sargent (02:08:37):
And it's like, Hey, you recently went to this place what was that experience like? And then I got to write about having that, you know, that, that's kind of a cool idea with the

Leo Laporte (02:08:45):
Journal. I love that idea. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So even better props, even better. They made an api.

Mikah Sargent (02:08:50):
Yes. So

Leo Laporte (02:08:50):
I love that. So, so Day one can add this feature. Other, other journaling apps Health is also much improved. It looks like in fact, health comes to the iPad finally, finally, no calculator for you Widgets on the iPad. That's gonna be interesting. Especially since Yeah,

Andy Ihnatko (02:09:10):
Yeah, exactly. They're, they're, they're interactive. And also the fact that you can build, build a widget one place, and basically now congratulations, your widget, the Widget Fear app cannot be deployed on the watch, can be deployed on the phone, can be on the desktop, can be out here in where the, the value of creating a widget Fear app just went up by like 300%

Leo Laporte (02:09:26):
For safety. I think the check-in feature is great. I

Mikah Sargent (02:09:30):
Have to, so here's what's amazing about this. I was talking about, as I always do me use, I used to be worried about you going into a ditch. And so you, I made a

Leo Laporte (02:09:38):
Shortcut, actually, you made a shortcut. Matthew made a shortcut

Mikah Sargent (02:09:40):
For sharing your e t a right? <Laugh>. But here's the thing about Sherry e t a, I can see your dot and follow you along as you're going. And when I think about people who are out in the world, they, they might be going places, maybe they're friends, they don't feel comfortable sharing their exact location, right? But they would feel comfortable if in an emergency their location was shared. That's where check-in is different from what you have right now because will keep everything private unless you're in a situation where you need to, at which point then it will share your location and information like how much battery life you have left. I think this is a fantastic feature. We've seen a few third party apps try to do something like this, but not quite succeed at this level. So I can't wait for this to come out because I know that I would feel more comfortable using this with some folks where I wouldn't want to full on just give them my location.

Andy Ihnatko (02:10:30):
Yeah. That, that, that's a big deal. You just tell, you just told this feature, I I I expect to be home by four by by 9:00 PM When that doesn't happen, it'll try to contact you if it doesn't, if you don't respond it, the people that you, you've not, that you've set up to be notified by this. Get I like Mike, I said not just your location, but hey, here's, here's your, here's your last time that you touched the phone. Here's the, here's your battery status, here's your cell phone status, here's your Apple Watch status so that you can get all this stuff together. One thing that I, that I'm, I've got I'm asking, I've asked Apple about this, haven't got a response back, is I wanna know what if you, what if, what if one of your emergency contacts does not have an iPhone or does not have an iPhone that is running iOS 17?

Are they s o l or do they or or is it something where it will send an s it'll it sends out an SM s m s if it is received by the version of IMEs that runs at iOS 17, it gets re redesigned as one of these beautiful graphical sort of displays of what's going on. Because that would be quite a kick in thet if they said, yeah, we don't want you to be rescued by anybody who has Android. We feel as though that's a good way to pressure that friend if they really want to save your life to have an iPhone <laugh>.

Mikah Sargent (02:11:38):
That is a good feature.

Leo Laporte (02:11:39):
Scared you would get an iPhone if you really cared. Thank you. Scooter X pointing out that, that little subtle thing. But Apple, which has always charged $99 to be in the developer program and required that you be in developer program to use the developer betas has now lifted that requirement. So the free version, just sign in with your Apple ID continues to give you Xcode and all of that, but you also get os beta releases. Oh, interesting. That's a new dot on the on the comparison list. So demo. Thank you. Scooter X for for Yeah. Pointing that out. I think they should. That's great. Apple wants to get people on the, on the bus. You're either on the bus or you're off the bus.

Mikah Sargent (02:12:19):
I have to say, the thing I was most excited about are audio message transcriptions because here's my problem. I love sending audio transcriptions, but I hate receiving audio. I do too.

Leo Laporte (02:12:31):
Cause you have to listen to

Mikah Sargent (02:12:32):
Them or audio messages. Yeah, I, my Exactly. You have to listen to them. I'm like, I don't wanna type something out, so I'll happily send 'em <laugh>. But so

Leo Laporte (02:12:38):
Usually what I do is dictate it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, but I think it's nice to have, I wonder if the MIMO audio will also

Mikah Sargent (02:12:44):
Be as podcasters. We're very happy to send our voice to people, but my little brother is notorious for sending me six minute long. Oh, do

Leo Laporte (02:12:51):
The Youngs do that now? I was wondering. Yes.

Mikah Sargent (02:12:53):
Yeah. And I don't want, I, I'm usually doing something else. Yeah. So I just wanna be able to read it real quick and see, oh, that's what he wants. I can respond super quick. So I'm really, whenever they announce that feature, I almost did a woo

Leo Laporte (02:13:06):
Wait. The, the audience sounds like they were fairly vocal.

Mikah Sargent (02:13:09):
So the press was mostly non-vocal.

Leo Laporte (02:13:13):
As, as they

Mikah Sargent (02:13:13):
Should be. As as we should be <laugh> and we were, you know, and so it is funny, I was asking the question what almost made you clap because that's kind of what you had to do. But every, the developers of course were very vocal and then that section between where there was the apps app, apple folks obviously very vocal. But yeah, it was only on occasion where you'd get the sounds like the price of the vision. A few jokes that came up, the name of that feature where you share your contact, the name drop feature that got a lot of laughs that was called name drop. And then some of the stuff, like a few of the stickers were funny to people.

Leo Laporte (02:13:50):
<Laugh> good. Yeah. let's see, what else do we have? Airdrop. We'll let you, that's the contact thing I guess Reid. Well,

Mikah Sargent (02:14:00):
But also I love this. If I'm sharing a video with someone and I need to leave before I can airdrop

Leo Laporte (02:14:06):
In the cloud.

Mikah Sargent (02:14:07):
Airdrop in the cloud. Yeah. Yeah. And I should also mention since I'm here, if you want a more in depth look, Rosemary Orchard and I covered all iOS and iPad OS this

Leo Laporte (02:14:15):
Morning. Should, I should have mentioned that. Yeah. No, we're just rehashing. So that's where we're gonna move very quickly. Anything in the iPad OS 17 you thought was worth, I love it that we're gonna have widgets. Oh. interactive widgets, which means we can and

Mikah Sargent (02:14:31):
Lock screen customization

Leo Laporte (02:14:32):
And lock screen customization to the iPad final.

Mikah Sargent (02:14:35):
But yes, those interactive widgets, this is great on both iPhone and iPad because more and more we're getting to the state where we don't necessarily need to open up an app, wait for it to load or whatever it happens to be and be able to access it. That right there on my, I it's, it's almost like it's making it more Mac like because my desktop is what I'm looking at instead of a home screen. Right. And I can interact with these little things and I mean that's how it

Leo Laporte (02:15:00):
Should be. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and I'm sure Rosemary, I mentioned her name was very excited that she could put shortcuts in widgets on the

Mikah Sargent (02:15:06):
Oh, 100% Excited about that. Unfortunately, that's another thing that's not working right now at iOS. So her shortcuts app won't even open. Ah. So she's wish

Leo Laporte (02:15:15):
For that. Notes is getting much more, go ahead please Andy. Yes, please.

Andy Ihnatko (02:15:18):
1, 1, 1 really big thing that we, that I've really, really want for a long time, iOS, iPad OS 17 now supports external cameras so you can plug in into webcam and actually use it. Really?

Mikah Sargent (02:15:28):
I didn't see

Leo Laporte (02:15:29):
That's great.

Andy Ihnatko (02:15:30):
Absolutely. It's cool. It was, it was in the state of the Union yesterday and I've also seen other people talking about it. I

Leo Laporte (02:15:35):
Facetime on my iPad almost all the time and it's really weird because it's sideways in the camera's over there. So I'm never looking at the camera. So an external camera would be very nice

Andy Ihnatko (02:15:45):
When I'm traveling on a Tuesday. That's the only reason why I have to take my damn like MacBook with me. Oh good. Instead of just iPad. Now I can actually take this on my external and

Leo Laporte (02:15:53):
Yeah. Health comes to the iPad. We mentioned that much improved PDF features. I mean basically you won't need a third party pdf, d F app anymore. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (02:16:02):
I feel I'm feeling for a lot of those third party

Leo Laporte (02:16:04):
Apps and notes is really, they keep improving notes. Notes is getting better and

Mikah Sargent (02:16:08):
Better. Trying to make it a little bit more like these tools, what log sac and few others

Leo Laporte (02:16:14):
PKM tools, they call 'em personal knowledge management tools. You know what, they didn't do a lot of hype and stage manager.

Mikah Sargent (02:16:21):
Yeah. They just said Oh I got a few improvements. I now I will say, so Christopher Lawley who has been a guest on iOS today and is like the stage manager guru, he nearly stood whenever they said they made improvements to to stage manager there. Whatever a lot of people are griping about who use Stage manager, one of the things is sort of whenever you take a window and you try to move it around, it would sort of jostle everything around the place. They fixed that. So that was exciting. And oh, I forgot to mention in notes when we were talking about the log sec thing, one thing that they didn't announce I believe on stage but was in the, the little details is that you can link between notes. So one note can link to another one and that's really that Yeah. Personal knowledgement

Leo Laporte (02:17:03):
Feature. Yeah, they're getting yeah. Notes. It's good. It's too bad. It's not cross platform. Yeah. That's the biggest downside. To that. But if you live in the Mac, in the Apple E ecosystem,

Mikah Sargent (02:17:14):
I guess technically cuz you can access it in the web.

Leo Laporte (02:17:16):
Yeah, that's right. Cross.

Alex Lindsay (02:17:18):
I've actually got grabbed notes when I need to go as PC had logged into iCloud to, to grab onto 'em. Oh, okay good. I don't have to do that very often but, but it knows that for those of us who are mostly 99% dealing with the Mace, it is super powerful. Like it, I use it, it's like Yeah, thanks

Leo Laporte (02:17:33):
For all the time. Emrick is saying classical music for iPad is now in the app store. Oh good. Yay. Andy and I are happy. Biggest news of the whole event.

Mikah Sargent (02:17:45):

Leo Laporte (02:17:46):
Mac os Sonoma, we are probably unjustifiably excited about that because we are in fact in Sonoma County, I

Mikah Sargent (02:17:54):
Was so excited and I was thinking about you all and I thought, I bet they're very pumped to hear

Leo Laporte (02:17:59):
That. So excited people

Mikah Sargent (02:18:00):
Were kind of poo-pooing it where I was and I thought, hey,

Leo Laporte (02:18:03):
Listen. Well, the way they led up to it, you know, Craig Federighe did his dad jokes about his crack team and all that, but the way they led it up to it said they were going to wine country. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I thought, oh crap, they're gonna name it Napa. Oh,

Mikah Sargent (02:18:14):
I, for some reason, from the beginning I thought, it's Sonoma. So it's really

Leo Laporte (02:18:18):
Exciting. Napa gets all the press, all the attention, and here we are in little old Sonoma Valley just next door. So I was very pleased that Apple gave us that and our wine is better. Other things in Sonoma. I like that name. Screensavers. Did people laugh? People

Mikah Sargent (02:18:37):
Said Rest and Peace Aerial, because the, I don't know if you all know that's the, that's

Leo Laporte (02:18:41):
What I use. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (02:18:43):
Which basically did this, the tv,

Leo Laporte (02:18:46):
This is even better though, because they're gonna, they apparently added a bunch of new wallpapers, all of which mm-hmm. <Affirmative> become alive. And

Mikah Sargent (02:18:51):
That's the thing is that they turn into your wallpaper, which is Yeah, it goes Yeah. From the lock screen to the wallpaper. Exactly.

Leo Laporte (02:18:57):
I love that. They have a bunch of stuff for Safari. Who cares? Oh,

Mikah Sargent (02:19:01):
I, okay. But Profiles in Safari I think is actually kind of neat. That's why you're here. This is why I'm here. I don't, I, I don't know if you folks feel that way, but I, so I'm a Safari user, and that's one of the things that I did like about Chrome and about a few other browsers that exist out there are switching between profiles. So I was excited about it. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:19:19):
They're, they're also doing sharing of logins and passwords. So if you have a, if you have a family that's huge, all uses the same Netflix package. Yes. Yeah. You don't have to basically sync between them. That makes Apple Key Chain is getting closer and closer to full fledged password manager. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, that's one of the last things that was still missing is the ability to share. Yeah. that's, that's, that's actually quite huge. I will use that because Lisa's on a Mac. I'm on a Mac she's still using Last Pass. I'm using Bit Warden, so I can't share through our Password manager, but we both have Max, so I can share through Key Jam. Yes.

Andy Ihnatko (02:19:50):
That's, they're doing, they're doing something similar with the, with the Find My Network. Like, but they're, you can have an air tag that can be shared, that can be found by multiple people in your family or in your group, which is inter, which is nice because Okay, that's great. Cuz maybe you and your spouse are equally invested in finding out where your suitcase wounded up. But it's like if there, there, there is a warning when you activate it. Say, okay, by the way, that means that if someone's, if, if, if a family member has put one of these tags with you without your knowledge, it's not gonna alert you that there's an air tag following you because this is your air tag. So make sure that you're not in a stocky sort of situation. So, but this, that's unavoidable.

Leo Laporte (02:20:25):
I suppose we were talking about that on Twitter on Sunday. A lot of spouses turn the fine my on Lisa and I have it on, so I know, you know, if she's delayed, she's still, I could look, oh, she's still work. I don't have to start dinner or whatever. <Laugh>. those, I think if you trust your spouse and you're not worried about them talking you, I think that's a, that's a good safety feature. And AC actually Apple has really enhanced that to some degree, which is great. But I agree with, you only do it if you really trust the other person. You do have let's see, web apps. Now, this was one Safari thing that I wanted to know more about, and in fact, I, I'll have to watch the track on this, because Apple's been laggard on progressive web apps, which is a, a standard from Google and Microsoft. And without Safari participating fully, p w a was kind of d o a, it sounds like Apple is now turning it on, but they didn't say pwa. So I'm not sure if it's an Apple feature, a Safari thing that's not progressive web apps or what. I

Andy Ihnatko (02:21:26):
Don't know. It hook, it hooks up nice. Unless with a feature where now if you have a a a, a website that is a web app, you can now actually have it as an app in the doc Yep.

Leo Laporte (02:21:34):
And launch.

Andy Ihnatko (02:21:35):

Leo Laporte (02:21:35):
So they're clearly providing some services. I, you know, I'm gonna have to look into it in more detail. It really

Mikah Sargent (02:21:42):
Does feel like what you can do on iOS just brought to Mac os, which is essentially wrapping it in its own window

Leo Laporte (02:21:47):
As opposed to Yeah. That's not so special. Frankly, that's not progressive web apps, but the fact that they can do notifications, I don't know, maybe we'll see. Yeah. They

Mikah Sargent (02:21:54):
Brought that to iOS first, right. With notifications,

Leo Laporte (02:21:56):
Live stickers also come to Mac os.

Mikah Sargent (02:21:59):

Leo Laporte (02:22:00):

Mikah Sargent (02:22:02):
Sorry. Yeah.

Andy Ihnatko (02:22:02):
Yeah, I guess so.

Leo Laporte (02:22:04):
Mac OS is compatible with 2019 IMAX and later 2019 Mac Pros and later 2017 iMac Pros and later Mac Studios. Obviously the MacBook Air from 2018 or later. So it has to be a fairly recent air. Looks like, in fact, do you have to have Apple, silicon? I kind, I'm wondering now, Mac many 2018 or later MacBook Pro 2018 or later. So a lot of older hardware now left in the dust when it comes to Sonoma.

Andy Ihnatko (02:22:34):
Anything Sunset continues to cross the Meridian. Yes. Well, if

Mikah Sargent (02:22:36):
You wanna run game mode, then you obviously need a newer machine. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:22:40):
Game mode. Woohoo.

Andy Ihnatko (02:22:42):
It's not, it's not, it's not like, it's not only game mode, but they're, they've also, for developers, they've actually added a whole suite of tools for comp for converting windows games to Mac. And it's really, really quite a rich environment. So they're trying to,

Leo Laporte (02:22:54):
Christina was talking about that, and I thought it was very interesting. They have effectively released DirectX 12 emulation for the Mac. Now they say it's a way for game developers to evaluate whether they can port their game to metal mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But in fact, they ha and they are using crossover or wine. They're, they're, they're actually contributing to a open source project, but in a weird backhanded way through Home Brew, the ability to run direct X 12 games in emulation on a Mac. That's very, to me, that's very interesting. Christina Warren noticed it and started posting it. Here's a, here's a actual video says Apple hid something amazing for Mac gaming at ww d c and so Apple was actually showing Windows games running in Rosetta in Direct X 12. What?

Andy Ihnatko (02:23:51):
So, yeah, it's a pretty big deal. It'll convert your, it'll convert your, your, your renders. It'll convert your shaders. It's, it's ambitious. So, let's see. Let's see if, let's see if Windows gamers game developers fall for it.

Leo Laporte (02:24:03):
I will actually give credit to the great Andrew Sai, who noticed that he is an Apple developer developed Spam siv, which is on the Great Game Spam Oh, wow. Tools. I think it's that Andrew Sai. So his, his video discovering this is a big deal, and I think it's very interesting. I suspect we'll see some open source crossover on this. This was huge for Linux when the Steam deck supported proton for cross compatibility, suddenly all these Windows games ran beautifully on Linux. And I think this could be actually huge. Yep. For apple Silicon as a, as somebody who likes to play games, I'm,

Mikah Sargent (02:24:43):
This excites me too. Likes to play games and has a Mac studio. Right. You know what

Leo Laporte (02:24:46):
I mean? Right. You'd be great in a nice screen. <Laugh> let's see. They talked about, oh,

Mikah Sargent (02:24:52):
And makos as well. You can finally, with both the Studio display or the iPhone, actually control the composition when you're using that center stage feature. Yes. Finally oh, Jason Snell, when he heard this, you can tell this.

Leo Laporte (02:25:06):
Hallelujah. You could say, look to your left, look to your right. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (02:25:09):
You can choose how the zoom and pan happens. Before it was just automatic to try to recenter you, but it's sometimes kind of odd. Oh, yeah. So now you can choose between wide and ultra. Maybe they did

Leo Laporte (02:25:17):
That because they also showed how you can do FaceTime on your Apple TV using continuity Cam,

Mikah Sargent (02:25:25):
That feature I'm so excited about I, every, the past, ever since I moved here, every Thanksgiving and Christmas, I do this strange iPad dance with my family back home who only have iPhones, <laugh>. And so they're trying to hold an iPhone and pass it around. And I'm getting sick looking at the iPad <laugh> as they're passing it around. So the idea of, of course it'll be, it'll require a little support call to get them to get it set up, but once that's done, we'll be able to have them up on the screen as we sort of celebrate our Christmas from a distance. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:25:53):
I, I FaceTime my mom every week, and I could put her on our big screen in the living

Mikah Sargent (02:25:57):
Room. Wouldn't that be nice?

Leo Laporte (02:25:58):
And have the camera over by the kitchen and we can, we can have Thanksgiving or cricket.

Mikah Sargent (02:26:02):
Great. And there's a session. This is exciting. There's a session at WW d c right now talking about using something called Dock Kit that will let developers interact with motorized docks for the iPhones. So what we're thinking

Leo Laporte (02:26:18):
Is, oh, I have one of those motorized

Mikah Sargent (02:26:20):
Docs. Uhhuh <affirmative>. So you th walk your iPhone onto this MagSafe doc, and then you can FaceTime from the television and the doc can move with you Oh. As you're moving around your space.

Leo Laporte (02:26:29):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. I see something here in video conferencing called a bubble overlay. Although I wrote Bubble Lover Leg <laugh>, and I think that was Freudian. I don't,

Mikah Sargent (02:26:40):
The bubble lover Leg <laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:26:41):
Is, I don't know what that is. <Laugh>. I'm

Mikah Sargent (02:26:43):
Kind of annoyed by this because they took this from iOS today. No, I can't. It was your

Leo Laporte (02:26:49):

Mikah Sargent (02:26:49):
Rosemary Orchard and I, when we do our show in the morning, we have you have

Leo Laporte (02:26:53):
A bubble

Mikah Sargent (02:26:53):
Overlay of ourself. Yeah. often overlaid over the iPad so that we can show what's on the screen, but also still appear on the screen. Apple's being a little bit more clever because it's using a lot of the features, the true depth and everything to kind of cut you out. So you're almost overlaid a little, they

Leo Laporte (02:27:09):
Showed like your full size with your PowerPoint or your keynote, sorry. Yeah. Behind you.

Mikah Sargent (02:27:14):
And then that's the other thing is that, yeah, you can go from this small bubble overlay. I loved that. Or sorry, bubble Lover lay <laugh> to the bigger version that Yeah. Has these multiple layers. And in Mac os there's going to be a new picker option that lets you choose specific apps that you want to show in third party conferencing apps. So instead of using Zoom itself to say, I wanna show just this window, or I wanna show just this app, you can go into the little green plus icon and say, show this app, or like, safari, or this window in Zoom, and then use my bubble overlay, et cetera, et cetera.

Leo Laporte (02:27:49):
This is part of a segment they called Audio and Home. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which was a little weird. It was like, we got all these loose pieces just Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (02:27:55):
Where do we put

Leo Laporte (02:27:55):
Shove them in there? But there was one that I thought was really interesting. I've kind of come around on the AirPods Pro. They're more comfortable. They actually sound really good. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and Kevin Tofl, who who does the i o t show with Stacy Higginbotham talked about how he uses them as kind of zas hearing aids. Now, apple, we've thought for a long time, was probably interested in this category, especially now that over-the-counter aids are legal. They talked about something with their AirPods that I think really is, is exactly what hearing aid users want. They call it adaptive audio. They've always had noise canceling and they've always had transparency. Now it'll slide between them. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I'm walking down the street and there's a jackhammer. It'll turn down the sound, but even more importantly, you come up and say, hi, it will f it will turn down the background and focus the sound on you. That's what you want a hearing aid to do. Hearing aids are all about intelligibility of speech. I think this is, I can't wait to use this. Yeah. I think this might be, and what Apple it really looked like is trying to get everybody to do is, is wear your AirPods all because then

Mikah Sargent (02:29:06):
Yeah. You could wear them more often. <Laugh>, and then on top of those chance

Leo Laporte (02:29:10):
Of losing them. Yeah. Ex

Mikah Sargent (02:29:11):
That's true. On top of those features. Also understanding the behavior of, when I listen to podcasts, I typ typically have my volume here. When I watch movies, my volume's here, when I listen to Beyonce, it's here. Whenever I listen to the, the strokes, it's here. And then be able to, you know, move between those different volumes automatically.

Leo Laporte (02:29:31):
It does it know that from location

Mikah Sargent (02:29:34):
Or it knows that from behavior.

Leo Laporte (02:29:35):
So the content, yeah. Oh,

Mikah Sargent (02:29:36):
Okay. Depending on the content. That's

Leo Laporte (02:29:38):
Very cool. Your memories can now be a screensaver on your Apple tv. I'll be using that.

Mikah Sargent (02:29:43):
I am actually very excited about that. Except I can, I already can imagine.

Leo Laporte (02:29:47):
Yeah. Well, it could go away. Yes. Depends what you remember. You just

Mikah Sargent (02:29:50):
Wanna be careful what's you remember. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:29:51):
Don't whatever. Don't, don't turn your bubble lover late into don't into a memory. Cause you're gonna have keep

Mikah Sargent (02:29:58):
Your bubble lover late to yourself.

Leo Laporte (02:29:59):
Problems. Yes. Locate Siri. Remote <laugh>. Exactly.

Mikah Sargent (02:30:06):
This is it's halfway between what we want and what we need between what,

Leo Laporte (02:30:13):
How was that in the remote? And we weren't given that earlier. Like, like you had that and you couldn't Yeah. I wonder what, so the idea is you, apparently they have a Uwb ship in the, in the Apple TV remote we never knew about. Cuz you can now aim your phone and say,

Mikah Sargent (02:30:26):
Okay, but let me be clear. This is my, this is my understanding from speaking with a few folks, is that it's not using uwb. Instead it is because of the advances in Bluetooth, it's a little bit better at determining the signal of the Bluetooth. Ah, and using that, it doesn't do an arrow. So all it does is, so I

Leo Laporte (02:30:48):
Thought maybe they were having the remote emit emitted, inaudible high-pitched scream, <laugh> <laugh>,

Mikah Sargent (02:30:55):
The bubble gets bigger or smaller, but there's no arrow unfortunately. Oh. And so,

Leo Laporte (02:31:01):
Okay. So it's closer or farther? It's closer

Mikah Sargent (02:31:03):
Or farther.

Leo Laporte (02:31:03):
Okay. So that would make sense. Bluetooth strength then. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Mikah Sargent (02:31:06):
Yeah. Yeah. I wish it was more than that, but unfortunately it's not. And then the great savior of relationships everywhere is that you and whomever is in your vehicle that you're allowing

Leo Laporte (02:31:16):
To, oh, this is gonna cause problems.

Mikah Sargent (02:31:18):
But, okay. So I actually asked about this because I thought share,

Leo Laporte (02:31:21):
Play, opt out with an, with the CarPlay

Mikah Sargent (02:31:23):
Share play in the car. Yeah. and I thought this has got to be opt out so that

Leo Laporte (02:31:27):
Somebody in the backseat can change the music mm-hmm.

Mikah Sargent (02:31:29):
<Affirmative> if you allow them to, but you

Leo Laporte (02:31:31):
Have to allow them to <laugh>.

Mikah Sargent (02:31:32):
And the I, this is why I like this is because I'll, I'll tell us, I'll sh talk about how it works for me right now, which is if I am in the passenger seat, my partner's driving and there's a song I'd love to listen to. I say can I please, please, please, please, please add a song to the queue. And then he says, okay. And I say, okay, well, and then I hold up his phone to his face while he is driving just to the side, so it unlocks and I can add a song to the queue. Now I can just do it on my own phone. And interestingly, only the person who is connected to CarPlay needs to have an Apple Music subscription.

Leo Laporte (02:32:05):

Mikah Sargent (02:32:06):
So you can still dj even if you don't

Leo Laporte (02:32:08):
Have, I'm driving subscription. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, Lisa's in the passenger seat. It's my phone that's playing music. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, what we've always done in the past is she's had a pair, you know, we switched the, the car play over to her mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But now she could just share, play over to my phone and play her crappy Lady Gaga music or

Mikah Sargent (02:32:23):
Just add to the cue <laugh>. Okay. You know, so it's temporary.

Leo Laporte (02:32:26):
Yeah. I'm kidding. <Laugh>. I'm kidding. She likes Beyonce. T that's tv. O s 17. That's watch os whatever, 10 I think some new features in Watch os Snoopy Snoopy in Woodstock to go. I'm just gonna point out. That's fine. The Charles Schultz peanuts. Santa Rosa, Uhhuh, Sonoma County. There's somebody spending a lot time up here now in the Apple team. I know. Wanna say, I'm thinking Craig Fred's got a palace up here or something. <Laugh>

Alex Lindsay (02:32:55):
Always like a peanuts curb. Curb your enthusiast for kids

Leo Laporte (02:32:59):
<Laugh>, isn't it? I never thought of that.

Alex Lindsay (02:33:02):

Leo Laporte (02:33:03):
Oh, oh, Snoopy

Alex Lindsay (02:33:07):
The book, the football thing, you know, like, it's,

Leo Laporte (02:33:09):
It's, yeah. No. You know. Yeah. Lucy is absolutely Larry, David, you now have if you play tennis or golf, your watch, it's on your wrist will notice how you're swinging. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> there's features for cyclists, which

Alex Lindsay (02:33:24):
That was pretty intense. I mean, I, I I, I was really curious about that, that I think that there's a lot, if it's really accurate, the amount of data that you're getting for, you know, sports is

Leo Laporte (02:33:36):
Serious. Cyclists already have this, they already have a dashboard and a Garmin watch, and they're already doing all of this. But yeah. If you're not a serious in

Mikah Sargent (02:33:44):

Leo Laporte (02:33:44):
Yeah. You're getting something new. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (02:33:48):
I was really excited about the two hiking things topographic maps, coming to maps on Apple Watch. That's really cool. And

Leo Laporte (02:33:56):
So you'll know what the altitude is before you go there.

Mikah Sargent (02:33:58):
Yeah, exactly. And b I think that it's helpful in trying to determine, oh, I know I got lost <laugh>, but how do I get back? And that's paired with the new Wayfinder points, so that it will tell you, you can leave breadcrumbs exactly the last time you had a cellular connection. And then the, not only just the last time you had a cellular connection on your cellular service, but then it'll add a second waypoint. That is the last time you had the availability to place an emergency call, which is available on any carrier. So even if your carrier doesn't reach as far, obviously you can place an emergency call on any carrier. So it'll show you that waypoint as well. I thought that was awesome.

Leo Laporte (02:34:33):
Nice. The, so benefits to hikers, bikers,

Mikah Sargent (02:34:37):
Oh, and then widgets are glances kind of on watch Alex, they

Leo Laporte (02:34:40):
Brought glances back. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> really, so that you can, now, if you start a timer, you can scroll up and you'll see the timer and so forth. I think that's, I think that's a hu huge step forward. Yeah. That's exactly what I want. Use that watch. Exactly. Be a little better than glances,

Mikah Sargent (02:34:52):
Because again, we don't wanna hold our arms up all day. Right.

Leo Laporte (02:34:55):
Yeah. <Laugh>, they have brought mental health to the watch mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, it's about time.

Mikah Sargent (02:35:00):
Yeah. More, more than they have in the past. At least. There's just some new kind of I would say it's almost just more new categories for what was all once sort of categorized mindfulness, be grateful.

Leo Laporte (02:35:11):
Yeah. That's all.

Mikah Sargent (02:35:12):

Leo Laporte (02:35:12):
Gratitude. And that's, that's the part of the feature that says you've only been in outside for 30 minutes. You need to go outside for another 90 minutes or something. <Laugh>. Which

Mikah Sargent (02:35:22):
Was, I did like how they broke that down. I did not realize that being in sunlight was helpful. Oh.

Leo Laporte (02:35:29):
Oh, you didn't know that myopia?

Mikah Sargent (02:35:30):
No. I knew obviously the change in vision and I knew looking out,

Leo Laporte (02:35:34):
They've always said that you should look at a variety of focal lengths, but yeah, I did. So people are glued to screens or wearing helmets. Well, should really get out there and look at the mountains. Mm-Hmm.

Alex Lindsay (02:35:43):
<Affirmative>. Yeah. I mean, my myopia is largely hereditary. Right. But the thing that is not hereditary, that's connected to those screens that they didn't talk about was macular degeneration. Oh. And that is what a lot of people are really worried about related to our screens. That's why a lot of people turn their screens at night mode all the time on, unless they wanna watch something that they care about. And it's why

Leo Laporte (02:36:02):
So tell me that. No one wants to

Alex Lindsay (02:36:04):
Talk about that.

Leo Laporte (02:36:04):
The brightness of the screen that's, that's in It's the blue.

Alex Lindsay (02:36:07):
It's the blue light. It's the, it's, it's the, the, it is, there's, when you have, when you're in a, cause I'm in

Leo Laporte (02:36:12):
The macular degeneration zone.

Mikah Sargent (02:36:14):
There are a number of new studies about blue lights damage to retina medicine.

Leo Laporte (02:36:17):
Yeah. And of course, these screens all have a lot of blue light, more than more than sunlight. It's

Alex Lindsay (02:36:22):
Odd that everyone started moving to dark mode and everybody started, you know, having these things. And, and then, and no one wants to talk about the fact that Mac macula, I, I had a long discussion with my ophthalmologist about it, and

Leo Laporte (02:36:31):
They were Oh, very interested.

Alex Lindsay (02:36:32):
Yeah. And they were like, yeah, the thing we're worried about is the macular gen degeneration, which, you know yeah. Which we, you and I need to get checked on. Right.

Leo Laporte (02:36:40):
Although I have heard you can exacerbate myopia kids who read a lot and things like that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> can make myopia worse. That's just nearsighted. See,

Alex Lindsay (02:36:49):
See, see, we have a whole theory. We Trey Radcliffe and I, were trading notes on, on this, on, on Twitter. We have a whole theory that, you know it, you know, a couple hundred years ago you were just emotionally blind. You like, if you myopic Yeah. So you had to be very, you had to be very crafty <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:37:01):
Yeah. That's why we're smart. Yeah. We had

Alex Lindsay (02:37:03):
To be very crafty. Cuz we're the only ones that survived was the ones who couldn't. Exactly. Well, we, like, we had to be, do something that's our, that's our whole theory. That's the theory that I want. The

Leo Laporte (02:37:10):
Watch will support name drop, which I think is really cool. I forgot to mention. Yeah. I can come up to you and we can do our watches.

Mikah Sargent (02:37:16):
It's a watch bump instead of a fist bump.

Leo Laporte (02:37:17):
A watch bump. That might be the new thing. So watch was activated by fist bump. That

Mikah Sargent (02:37:23):
Would be so cool.

Leo Laporte (02:37:25):
I mean, there was, by the way, many years ago at ces, IBM m had a technology. They put a computer in your shoe and then use its capacitance. Did you kick somebody? No. You would shake hands. And in the capacitance and the, and the context, you

Mikah Sargent (02:37:38):
Had to run a wire all the way down to your shoe. I

Leo Laporte (02:37:40):
Don't know how it worked, but you would shake hands with somebody else wearing the IBM shit foot shoe. Right. <laugh> Not the shit food. The foot shoe shake their hands. And a bubble lover light would appear over your head. No. And you would exchange I love it. Yeah. It's

Mikah Sargent (02:37:55):
Ridiculous. Let's make it again.

Leo Laporte (02:37:57):
Well, they were trying to, and this is, this is it. This is it. Only right. Done. Right. A again, apple. Good job.

Mikah Sargent (02:38:05):
What were you saying, Andy?

Andy Ihnatko (02:38:07):
Oh no, I was just gonna say that lockdown mode, since we're talking about watch us lockdown mode now also extends to watch, to watch os So we can lock, if you lock down your phone, you can also lock down your watch as well. So again, if you feel as though you're being targeted by like, Nat national Surveillance Surveillance Agency and that your, your phone, your devices are being hacked to get access to your messages and contacts and stuff like that. The watch used to be vulnerable to that. Now we, the same, the exact same lockdown mode that goes into the phone now applies to the

Leo Laporte (02:38:33):

Mikah Sargent (02:38:34):
And it's all, yeah. It's on Mac Os and everywhere.

Leo Laporte (02:38:37):
I think I'm getting punchy. I think, is there any <laugh>?

Mikah Sargent (02:38:42):
Did, oh, did you hear something that was No,

Leo Laporte (02:38:44):
I said foot shoe. I meant shoe computer. Wait, it's, I believe No, none of us. I believe all shoes are designed to go on your feet. I might be wrong on that. A

Mikah Sargent (02:38:54):
Hot shoe doesn't go on your shoe. Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:38:56):
Shoe title <laugh>

Mikah Sargent (02:38:58):
Foot shoe.

Leo Laporte (02:39:00):

Mikah Sargent (02:39:00):
Shoe question mark. What

Leo Laporte (02:39:01):
Am I talking about? Does anybody have anything else? I mean, this was a long, there was a two hour and six minute, it was so long presentation. We've gone almost the same length of time. Actually a little longer. Anything we've missed?

Mikah Sargent (02:39:13):
I'm trying to think if there's anything really that stuck out to me or that I heard about afterwards. I,

Leo Laporte (02:39:17):
You know this, this was one of those events where, and we really didn't expect this Apple updates almost all their Mac hardware. We really didn't expect something like that. You

Mikah Sargent (02:39:27):
Know, in fact, there was a lot of conversation, you know, what leading into it that I was having with the other folks about how, oh, man, if applet takes the time to announce all of these Mac, it's all going to be overshadowed by the headsets. So why would they not? It just announce headset.

Leo Laporte (02:39:42):
Yeah. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (02:39:42):
We mostly talked about the headset. A lot of people are mostly talking about it. And yeah. So it was kind of interesting that they still chose to announce the max here as opposed to just doing one of those press release and send out the review units.

Leo Laporte (02:39:54):
Somebody's in the chat room said, don't, don't forget there your autocorrects not gonna duck you anymore because of

Mikah Sargent (02:39:59):
No. Yes.

Andy Ihnatko (02:40:00):
I was gonna, I was just about about to say, I'm a, I'm amazed that there's so many like pieces written about this. I was, I was on WG on radio in Chicago this morning, and the host said, so I understand that now,

Andy Ihnatko (02:40:12):
Now I can cuss on, on iOS on my iPhone. And I'm like, say what

Leo Laporte (02:40:17):

Andy Ihnatko (02:40:19):
Think about what, what do you, what do you mean you can always cuss on

Leo Laporte (02:40:21):
Ok, on cnn. N n the iPhone's ducking autocorrect problem finally gets fixed. The problem, so, can I type the other word now?

Andy Ihnatko (02:40:30):
It mean it, it means that now it's, it's better at like remembering that, oh, you tend to use this word a lot. So I'm not gonna autocorrect this word, this not of my dictionary again. So Logan Roy

Leo Laporte (02:40:41):

Andy Ihnatko (02:40:41):
Say the improved autocorrect based on a transformer machine language model,

Mikah Sargent (02:40:45):
And it's arguably less prudish. Because even if you, there were a bunch of ways that you could try to get it to do it in the past so that it would just leave you alone and it wouldn't. And now in change to the transformative model, it can also

Andy Ihnatko (02:40:59):
Adjust that.

Leo Laporte (02:41:00):
Any, any guesses as to which Apple Executive demanded that <laugh>? Oh, I

Mikah Sargent (02:41:03):
Can imagine.

Leo Laporte (02:41:04):

Mikah Sargent (02:41:05):
I ducking. Imagine

Leo Laporte (02:41:08):
Anything else we've missed? It was, it was a, it was, I thought, a very interesting event. I was so glad not to hear the letters. 5G or ai? Oh my god, 5g. Anywhere in it. There was a lot of AI in it, large language models, machine learning, but, but not AI specifically. And I think it's interesting that where the rest of the industry has turned away from VR and ar, you know, look at Meta, they went, what? There's that, that's that meme with the guy going by with a girl. And and Apple is, you know, keeping their eyes <laugh> the prize they're sticking with the one, the Prum.

Andy Ihnatko (02:41:44):
This is, you know, both, both of these, both Google and Apple, like, like 7, 5, 6, 7 years ago, said, you know what, we're gonna, we think that this thing that we're gonna invest on a, a gajillion dollars in is gonna be like the lifeblood of the company in the 20, in the, in the 2020s and 2030s. And one of these people is probably going to be right. And we're, we shouldn't, we shouldn't guess that it's gonna be Google. We shouldn't guess it's gonna be Apple, but, oh my God. So we, I feel as though both of these companies cannot have made the exact same Right. Decision though,

Leo Laporte (02:42:15):
If you think I was critical of the v Vision Pro, you ought to hear me talk about AI <laugh>.

Mikah Sargent (02:42:22):
We do. I'm

Leo Laporte (02:42:23):
Turning into Dvorak actually. I think I'm just negative on everything. I, I don't think either one is gonna change the world, but we'll see. We'll see.

Andy Ihnatko (02:42:31):
As, as, as someone, as someone, as an Andy, an oco, again, I I, I get a lot of emails like, oh, are you being personal about me? Or you're saying ai not as much, not as big as deal as I

Leo Laporte (02:42:40):
Like you, ai, you're the good ai,

Andy Ihnatko (02:42:43):
Thank you very much. I probably am not going to turn against humanity and be the destruction of all that is good and holding on this

Leo Laporte (02:42:50):
Planet. But don't give him the news of your codes anyway. Just, just, well, just,

Andy Ihnatko (02:42:54):
Just, you know, don't, don't don't be mean. Okay. I mean, I, I, some days I'm just right there in the edge. You could, I mean, I'm right there. It's gonna blow, you know what I mean?

Leo Laporte (02:43:02):
It's gonna blow. Alex, anything final thoughts? You, you, you obviously were very excited about everything you saw yesterday. I think it was

Alex Lindsay (02:43:11):
Solid updates for the stuff that we expected. I think that the headset is actually more than I expected. You know, from, from a ver version one. So I think that it's, it's got some pretty good, it's got some legs. So I, I'm looking forward to to, to, or the, you know, it's,

Leo Laporte (02:43:26):
Yeah. I'm very excited about my 15 inch alay.

Mikah Sargent (02:43:31):
I'm excited, I'm excited for you.

Leo Laporte (02:43:32):
I can't wait to get that. Andy it sounds like you were reasonably approving of everything I've talked

Andy Ihnatko (02:43:41):
About very much in, in one, in one maybe verbose sentence. I've, I wasn't prepared to judge it based on anything that Apple was gonna show off today. However, I don't think they made any huge mistakes. I think to the extent to which a virtual reality ski goggle type headset can succeed in 20 24, 20 25. I think they've set themselves up nicely. But again, we're gonna find out in January, February what they're actually delivering and what the experience is actually like. Yeah. But again, I don't, nothing, nothing that can rag on them about, not that I was, not that I was setting them them up for that, but I think that I was very, very pleased with yesterday's announcements.

Leo Laporte (02:44:18):
Mikah, you're glad you were there.

Mikah Sargent (02:44:20):
Glad to have been there for the things I learned and sort of post keynotes and more importantly, just very excited to dig into these developer sessions and learn more. Yeah. That's where the meat of it is going to be. I agree. There are a lot of sessions I've been eyeballing, like, oh, I gotta see more about that. So yeah, you'll hear more about that soon.

Leo Laporte (02:44:38):
Good. Yeah. God speed, because I don't think I'll be able to get through all of those. But glad you're, you know, the young people today. That's what we're here for. They got the energy <laugh>. We're gonna take a break. Come back with your picks of the week in just a second. Our show today brought to you by Melissa. Melissa, oh, I've talked about them before. The address experts, the leader in global data quality, identity verification, and address management solutions. Actually some, you know, good news, a little pat on the back, Melissa, because they just, the clean suite and data quality suite for Melissa have just once again been named leader by g2, which is a leader itself in peer-to-peer software in the 2023 data quality and address verification spring report. Good going. They'll also, that means that's not all name momentum leader, high performer across the small business, mid-market and enterprise segments.

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Mikah Sargent (02:48:43):
I do. And let me get that link popped into the show notes. The app that I want to talk about, it's available on the iPad and the iPhone, but you can install it on the Mac. And I have it on the Mac. It's called Knots 3d Knotz.

Leo Laporte (02:49:02):
3D like Knottsberry Farm,

Mikah Sargent (02:49:03):
Like K N O T S, like you're Italian knots. Oh, and that's cause it is an app.

Leo Laporte (02:49:09):
Oh, I love, I know this app. I love this app. Teache. Yeah. It teaches you how it teaches you knots. Its

Mikah Sargent (02:49:13):
<Laugh>. So you get to learn in this beautiful animation, how to tie all sorts of knots. It's just kind of fun learning about all the knots that are out there. They have them categorized quite well and you can slow things down. You, it's a, they're all 3d so you can sort of spin them around and look at them. And I wanted to mention this one because I can imagine in the Vision Pro future where I could take this knot. Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:49:41):
Pull it out.

Mikah Sargent (02:49:41):
This would be able to look around it.

Leo Laporte (02:49:43):
Now I'm gonna buy one. Oh,

Mikah Sargent (02:49:44):
Now you're getting

Leo Laporte (02:49:45):
One <laugh>. Now I'm gonna buy one. I never thought of that.

Mikah Sargent (02:49:48):
You gotta learn how to

Leo Laporte (02:49:48):
Tie all the knots. Oh my God. You hold the string up in front of you. Yes. And then you can see and you can, oh,

Mikah Sargent (02:49:55):
Now I'm doing a bunt line hitch.

Leo Laporte (02:49:57):
Everybody should know how to do a bunt line hitch. One of the most important,

Mikah Sargent (02:50:01):
And the only way I can learn is by having a vision pro to do it with obviously <laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:50:06):
O mg.

Mikah Sargent (02:50:07):
Yeah. And then I forgot to mention, they also will link to videos. If you want to see sort of hands do the action.

Leo Laporte (02:50:13):
This is the next best thing to having a sailor in your apartment.

Mikah Sargent (02:50:15):
Indeed. And I don't have one of those <laugh>, so, okay. I had to do what I had. Right.

Leo Laporte (02:50:19):
Come here a kid, let me show you how to make a clover

Mikah Sargent (02:50:22):
Hitch. And then as a secondary little thing, I did want to give a super quick shout out. There was a nice individual who was golf carting, a couple of us. And I was talking to Dan Morin, and the person who was driving us said, do do I know your v I know your voice from somewhere. And I said, me? I said, yeah. I said my mike. And they said, Mikah Sargent. And they are a weekly listener to Mac Break Weekly. You

Leo Laporte (02:50:47):
Kinda wear a hat or something. He says, I Yes, I am Mike,

Mikah Sargent (02:50:49):
Not I mic a Sargent. Yeah. and weekly listener, Mac Break, weekly iOS today. Several TWI shows. Is

Leo Laporte (02:50:54):
This different from the other one than you? Different from the other

Mikah Sargent (02:50:56):
One? There was two. So one recognized me by the look, the other person just by voice that I thought that was kinda neat. Nice. So thank you for listening. Yay. thank you for tuning in every week. Thanks to all

Leo Laporte (02:51:05):

Mikah Sargent (02:51:05):
Listeners. And thank you Knots 3D for helping me tie loads of different knots.

Leo Laporte (02:51:10):
And I apologize to all my friends who work at Apple. I've always, they've always been pissed off at me. Oh, but I, you know, I, no, I don't <laugh> Andy. I know you guys, you do great work. You work really hard. I know, I know. Andy and ACO your pick of the week.

Andy Ihnatko (02:51:29):
Mine is something that we've talked about before. Other people have picked it as the pick of the week. However, this time I have now got access to the ARC browser firm for Mac os the, the new beta. And I'm gonna add my own testimony to this. This is a really, really great browser. Other people have re recommended it. What I love about it is that it's the first browser that really tries to reconceptualize how a web browser should work in 20 23, 20 22. Instead of having, Hey, here's a window with an address bar and some bookmarks. The rest of it, it's up to you to organize it and to figure out how to use this and make the best make the best make, make the best productivity out of it. The way that I've got the ARC browser set up for myself is that I basically have decided to use it as, it's actually dark right now, but when I, when I'm using my, my MacBook or my desktop Mac, my external display here is my iPad Pro.

And I have the ARC browser maximized in this in this display. And I use it basically for everything that I use, kind of like as a web app. So when I need to get my mail, I've got icons for mail, for YouTube, for Spotify, for Slack, all like little icons, row of icons in the sidebar. And it also lets you set up like workspaces for when I'm doing all of my research and stuff to to figure out to figure out how to all the stuff I'm doing for this podcast, all the stuff I'm doing for npr, all the stuff I'm doing for the material podcast, all the stuff I'm doing for one different project. They're all in like individual like spaces with that are nicely lined up in the sidebar there. The only the only the, the only thing I complain I have about it is simply that I like it too much.

And I absolutely need my web browser to be cross-platform. I need it. I need to, I need to have it on my Mac, on my iPad, on my Android phone and also my, my, my Chromebook. So if I get too attached to this, if I get too productive with it, I might be stuck with using this for everything. And I'm not sure if I want that, but it's a, it's free. Go to to sign up for the beta and start using it because oh my goodness. It is exactly everything that EV Safari should steal. Everything from this Chrome should steal everything from this. This is how this, we have been neglected as web users. And finally, ARC is giving us some love

Leo Laporte (02:53:39):
From the browser company of New York I think you still do you still have to get an invite to use it?

Andy Ihnatko (02:53:46):
You still, you still need an invite? It's still, it's still in beta, but it's a very, very stable beta

Leo Laporte (02:53:50):
And it's Mac only, although the Windows versions and I believe an iOS version, our our Eminence Oh yeah, the

Mikah Sargent (02:53:58):
Arc, yeah. ARC on iOS is a whole, they actually kind of make it as a separate sort of idea where it's just almost a list of links as opposed to a full on

Leo Laporte (02:54:08):
Browser. Yeah. It's really interesting. I played with it. It

Andy Ihnatko (02:54:10):
Does, it does sync between right. Between Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:54:12):
It does. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Pro. It's not based, is it? It's based on Chromium though, isn't it?

Andy Ihnatko (02:54:21):
I believe

Leo Laporte (02:54:21):
It's a chrom, it's chromium engine. CHRO based. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So it's really it's about new thinking about UI in your browser. Absolutely. Arc net Mist addicts. Lindsay, you're a picker. The, now you can't say Vision Pro

Alex Lindsay (02:54:34):
<Laugh>. You could say The Vision Pro. I don't have it yet. Oh, okay. Yeah. The, yeah, the oh, quick note. This isn't, this isn't necessarily my pick, but a quick note that for us Mac users for a long time the, and for those of you playing PlayStation there was a, there was an app that a lot of us played in the nineties called Marathon. Oh

Leo Laporte (02:54:52):
God. Yes. Yes.

Alex Lindsay (02:54:54):
Did you see the trailer? Did you see the trailer?

Leo Laporte (02:54:56):
No. A new version of Marathon

Alex Lindsay (02:54:58):
Bungee is,

Leo Laporte (02:54:59):
Is it from Bungee

Alex Lindsay (02:55:00):
New version? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:55:02):
Wow. Oh

Alex Lindsay (02:55:03):
Yeah, there's a new trailer. That's why I wanted to bring it up. Cause I, I, it's, it was re the trailer was at least two weeks ago. And in my world, like everybody talks about the trailer, but I would realize, I think, I think not everybody has seen that Marathon is coming back.

Leo Laporte (02:55:16):
So Marathon Bungee went on to do Halo. And so Marathon was in effect the granddaddy of Halo. But yeah,

Alex Lindsay (02:55:24):
It was Marathon was like you had Doom on the, you know, but then you had marathon. And Marathon is what we all played on the Mac. First

Leo Laporte (02:55:29):
Person shooter for the Mac. We actually used to play like four, like crazy

Alex Lindsay (02:55:33):

Leo Laporte (02:55:34):
Yeah. On site. Yeah. You had to wait a minute. This is the game. This Caterpillar. Boy, this looks a lot better than it used to. <Laugh>

Alex Lindsay (02:55:40):
The launch. Oh yeah. This is, this is the new one. It's, it's a brand new one. Yeah, it's a built up. But, but the we used to have to to get enough frame rate to play on the, on a 7,100, I think it was, you had to restart without all the extensions. Right. And so at the end of the day, I worked, I worked in a game company. And so I was, I was an art director and a game company. We were, and we were all in one room, a tiny little game company, five of us or whatever. And you would hear one person about five or six o'clock, somewhere between five and six, you this don that, that means they're restarting with the extensions off.

Alex Lindsay (02:56:14):
And suddenly, and suddenly no say anything. No one would say anything it like, and sudden you Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm, I'm compiling, I'm compiling. And they'd be

Alex Lindsay (02:56:23):

Alex Lindsay (02:56:26):
Everyone, everyone would, everyone would in and play. And it would always be like,

Alex Lindsay (02:56:30):
Now if, if one of your wives called, the key was, is that no one was allowed to fire because, you know, were open. And and it would always be someone, someone was going, no, no, I'm just finishing up. I'm just finishing up here. And someone would fire their gun and then suddenly, no, no, I'm not playing

Alex Lindsay (02:56:44):
Marathon. I'm not, you know. And

Leo Laporte (02:56:45):
This is not, by the way, as I watch it doesn't look a lot like the old marathon. No.

Alex Lindsay (02:56:49):
But it, it's just, it's just, they're gonna, they're gonna re rerelease it though. It's gonna be, I think they, they're gonna take what they learned on Halo and then apply it. So Marathon, we get, we get marathon back and it's just gonna be anyway, for, for some of us, we played it a lot. And it's

Leo Laporte (02:57:05):
Carsten Bondi told me only recently, <laugh>, we, we all played Marathon like crazy on the site when we were all doing the Ms N B C show. This was like you in the mid nineties, 94. And we, we'd do the same thing. What happened? They'd all play Cause it was a network game. It was one of the early network games. Yeah. And Carson told me that behind the scenes they were saying gang up on Leo <laugh>. And every, because every time I joined the game, 15 Rocket launchers would all at once would fire

Alex Lindsay (02:57:33):
Up at him. Oh man. Fire me.

Leo Laporte (02:57:35):
Yeah. So it turned out that I, it was the bad guy. I was, what do they call it, among us? I was the intruder. Oh yeah. What is that called? I was the, anyway, imposter. Imposter. And they was a kid was suss the difference was, yeah. They all knew I was the imposter. But that's not your pick. What's your

Alex Lindsay (02:57:52):
Pick? That's not my pick. Pick, pick is coming I think it was released on Friday but it's called Zoom cuts. And this is new from liminal. This is the company of course makes Zoom ISO and Zoom osc. And what this is, is it's, it is taking a lot, not all, but a lot of what we have in Zoom, iso osc and Zoom iso, these are, you know, those are what wait

Leo Laporte (02:58:13):
A minute is so is and so Andy Caruccio

Alex Lindsay (02:58:17):

Leo Laporte (02:58:17):
Sold liminal or just sold

Alex Lindsay (02:58:20):
Sold. No, sold Liminal. Sold Lim.

Leo Laporte (02:58:22):
This is part of,

Alex Lindsay (02:58:23):
It's, this is part of Zoom Zoomin

Leo Laporte (02:58:24):
Extensions from Zoom. But,

Alex Lindsay (02:58:27):
But, but Loom. But Zoom is, you know, liminal is keeping its own company, you know, so it's separate from Zoom. Oh it is. It's fine. It's, it's so, it's like you know, LinkedIn didn't become Microsoft either, you know, like, so it's, yeah, so Zoom it. So Liminal is, is a subsidiary of Zoom and they keep on, you know, they're developing nothing.

Leo Laporte (02:58:43):
Well, we love Andy, you ntroduce used him to us. We think he's so great. And we use Zoom iso right now we're using Zoom iso.

Alex Lindsay (02:58:49):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and you're using it now for the, I guess for the, I heard you were using some Zoom stuff for the calls over the weekend. Yes.

Leo Laporte (02:58:55):
Andy wrote us great script and Oh man, it's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. So we, same phone number now. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (02:59:02):
What Zoom Cuts does is it, it allows you to take a lot of the tools that we have in Zoom ISO and Zoom osc that are a little geeky. I mean, they, they tie into a lot of other things and have it just with shortcuts. So now you can, you know, there's a lot of like, things that you might want to do in Zoom. That, and that now there's all these short and it's just a short, you know, these are shortcuts, you know, so now you can use them as shortcuts. Adam Tau, who is who wrote, who also have written another program that I, that I talk about, which is my brain just turned off here, but but the but Adam is at Zoom as well, and it is and he has written a lot.

He's really into shortcuts <laugh>. So, so, so he, so he built this all out. But what this allows you to do, if you're running Zoom events this is, this allows you to go in and allows you to do a lot of the tools like mute everybody, unmute everybody you know, get information, do all these other things. And if you have other programs that do shortcuts you are able to integrate those. So you can say, I want you to cut to this and play this so you can talk to another app that is doing shortcuts as well as you can build very complex shortcuts because of shortcuts can do that on its own. But this, these give you all the hooks that we had with Zoom is Zoomo as C and Zoom ISO to do those controls. You have those here and it's, you know, for a lot of people like my wife friends, I, the stuff we do at Office Hours is pretty complicated and it still needs osc. But the stuff that my, my wife does where she's running Zoom events in the Native Zoom environment this is a really powerful set of tools that folks like her are gonna use a lot. So

Leo Laporte (03:00:52):
Zoom cuts, I would, do you think that that was John a beta of Zoom cuts that Andy was using to automate our workflow for the Asthe Tech guys? No, Isadora. Ah, okay. Oh, zoom. Yeah. Isadora. Yeah, we've

Alex Lindsay (03:01:06):
Talked about that in the past. Yeah, yeah,

Leo Laporte (03:01:08):
Yeah. Yeah. Liminal net, li liminal liminal That's a, so the company's liminal, but the website is liminal plus Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (03:01:23):
Okay. Yeah. And it's the other one that Adam writes is Mix Pro, which is something that you, you, I've already recommended that in the past, and it's the you can't use an, in my opinion, don't, you can't use a Black Magic Atam without Mix Pro. So it's, so he's, he's really tied well, and, and again, because of that, the, the, you can tie controls because you have the same person that wrote both of these. You can tie the controls from the atem into the Zoom to tie all those things together as well. Nice. Nice. It's a pretty nifty setup. And we're gonna be talking to, both Adam and Andy are gonna join Office Hours on Thursday to answer people's questions about this and

Leo Laporte (03:01:59):
Everything. Office hours do Global. That's where Mr. Lindsay hangs his hat most of the time. And of course, if you wanna hire him, zero nine Media, I will mention we have

Alex Lindsay (03:02:09):
Oh, oh, go

Leo Laporte (03:02:10):
Ahead. Then I will give you a plug. I will mention though, because OUTTA Sync put this in, in our IRC that you can still play Marathon. There's an open source

Alex Lindsay (03:02:18):
I know

Leo Laporte (03:02:18):
Version of Marathon, the original called LF one. It has Marathon, marathon two and Marathon Infinity. It works on Mac Os 10 Windows and Linux. And you can play online. So another they

Alex Lindsay (03:02:34):
Don't have, don't make sense of humor though, though. The, I I did jump on there one time, and I think we talked about it on Mac Break years and years ago, that, Hey, I'm gonna go play and you can all go and suddenly like 200 people showed up and these, these are folks that have their own little like, setup that they're doing this with, and suddenly there was, it was mass chaos. So

Leo Laporte (03:02:52):

Alex Lindsay (03:02:53):
They didn't think we were funny either. They, they weren't excited that a lot of people showed up. They were mostly angry that everyone's messing everything up for them. So it was

Leo Laporte (03:02:59):
Google LF one and Marathon, if you wanna

Alex Lindsay (03:03:02):
Try Yeah, yeah,

Leo Laporte (03:03:03):
Try playing it oh nine oh Media for his day job office for his love, the, his love, his love job, <laugh>.

Alex Lindsay (03:03:14):
You know, I, we had a great, we were down at at Seg Gear over the weekend. Segre is the coolest like film. Like there's N A B, which is big, and I b C is big, but Segre is all eye candy. It's jibs and cameras and lights and everything else. And we were streaming, we streamed,

Leo Laporte (03:03:29):
Ooh, look at that. Four,

Alex Lindsay (03:03:31):
Four hours live with a live view and a bunch of, you know, crazy gear from Electrosonics and, and terradeck and stuff like that. So it was a lot of fun. So anyway, so we did that and, and we had today we had Kelsey Gray on, she's, she writes, she writes this book, actually, let's make letters. And it was all about topography. And so we, we, we covered a lot of ground in the last five days.

Leo Laporte (03:03:54):
Always fantastic. And there was a great coverage of the keynote. You can always watch their stream if you don't wanna watch ours as they

Alex Lindsay (03:04:02):
Talk about, well, it's different. Ours is very yours. Yours is much more you can listen to ours is like, there's a whole bunch of people. There's a hundred people in our Zoom room all like arguing with each other over whether this matters or not. So this is slightly different. It's, it's a little, it's a lot more interactive. It's, it's not the typical office hours, it's, it's but yeah, there, there's about a hundred. See Office

Leo Laporte (03:04:19):
Free for all. Really. It

Alex Lindsay (03:04:21):
Is, it is. We're all just watching the show and talking about it. It was, it's fun.

Leo Laporte (03:04:24):
Andy, when are you gonna be on G B H Next

Andy Ihnatko (03:04:28):
This Friday at 1230, I'm actually at the Boston Public Library Studio. So come on down. Have a cup of coffee, have a cookie, have a sandwich, and watch, watch the pictures as I float through the air. Or if you knock, don't wanna go to the Boston Book Library. Go to wj d WGBH to stream the audio live or later, go to W WGBH News on YouTube to watch the video.

Leo Laporte (03:04:49):
Very nice. Andrew, the my favorite ai Thank you very much. Mic A Sargent is irregular on Tech News Weekly. You'll be back on Thursday to talk about the week's news with Jason Howell. Of course, every Tuesday morning, right before Mac Break Weekly, you do iOS today with Rosemary Orchard. That's a great show. And then on Sundays, you and I do ask the tech guys that we

Mikah Sargent (03:05:11):
Do ask the tech guys where we take your questions live on air and do our best to answer them. Unless it's about printers no. Even then we try, we

Leo Laporte (03:05:20):
Did a printer question. It was the last question of the day, and I will never let that happen again. <Laugh>, we should also <laugh>.

Mikah Sargent (03:05:25):
I will.

Leo Laporte (03:05:26):
Sure. We should. <Laugh> Oh, oh, producer John Ashley says, I wouldn't be sure. You also do a podcast, a wonderful podcast. It's only rely

Mikah Sargent (03:05:35):
On fm slash clockwise.

Leo Laporte (03:05:37):
Only half an hour.

Mikah Sargent (03:05:38):
Yes. Never longer than 30 minutes is clockwise. The tech podcast where we have two guests on every week, each person brings a topic to the table. We go around the table answering each topic. And,

Leo Laporte (03:05:49):
And you did it yesterday at the podcast studio?

Mikah Sargent (03:05:51):
Yes. Dan was able to arrange some time for us to be in the apple Podcast's studio for a brief 30 minutes, and then they quite literally broomed us out the door. Wow. but We were there long enough to get to do an episode with Mike Hurley and Jason Snell. Jason Snell is obviously for this. So yeah, that was a, a good time to get to chat with the, the folks

Leo Laporte (03:06:13):
Athlete titled, I want to be able to ducking type <laugh>

Mikah Sargent (03:06:17):

Leo Laporte (03:06:19):
Relay fm slash clockwise. Well, we have approved, I think today premised that all of these should be pre-recorded because we have now gone longer <laugh> by an hour. Oh

Mikah Sargent (03:06:32):

Leo Laporte (03:06:33):
Gosh. We've gone longer by an hour than the Apple event, and we didn't even cover all the stuff they covered. So you're right, Alex, I, I give you a, a victory. Instant victory. Well, three hour later victory. We could, we maybe could have been a little more terse.

Mikah Sargent (03:06:47):
I am shook. No, I've

Alex Lindsay (03:06:48):
Heard this. So conversation,

Mikah Sargent (03:06:49):
Three hours <laugh>

Leo Laporte (03:06:51):
Goes by like

Mikah Sargent (03:06:52):
That. Yeah, I do. Can't believe it's been three

Leo Laporte (03:06:53):
Unless you're listening. In which case you're going. It's a cuddle puddle of 10 Tech love. They're doing X speed, so they're fine. That's right. It's only an hour and a half for most of them. <Laugh> thank you all for being here. We do Mac Break Weekly every Tuesday, 11:00 AM Pacific, 2:00 PM Eastern Time, 1800 utc. The livestream is There's audio and video there if you, that's only if you wanna watch us as we do it, get the, you know, the full flava of it. If you're doing that, you should chat with us. There's two ways to do that. Open to all IRC dot TWIT TV Club twit members, of course, can go in the clubhouse and chat with us there. If you're not a member of Club Twit, seven bucks a month gets you ad free versions of all our shows Access to The Discord, which is a really great social network.

Plus special shows like Mikah's, hands-on McIntosh that we don't put out in public. I think it's a good seven bucks a month that's a well spent seven bucks a month. Go to twit tv slash club twit. If you are not a member, then you can go to the public feeds for this show after the fact. Either go to the website, twit tv slash mb w to get the ad supportive version of the show or the YouTube channel dedicated to Mac Break Weekly. There's a link at twit tv slash mb w or, and I think this is the best thing, subscribe. In fact, I really wanna encourage everybody who listens to any of our shows to open up your favorite podcast player, whether it's podcasts or Overcast, or apple or Google's podcast player. Open it up, search for twit and you'll find all the shows there and can subscribe to the ones you wanna listen to. The nice thing about that is if you subscribe, you don't have to think about it at all. Just whenever you're in the moon, you'll have a show to listen to. Thank you for being here. But now I must say it's his time a to go back to work because break time is over.

Rod Pyle (03:08:45):
Hey, I'm Rod Pyle, editor-in-Chief VAD Astor magazine, and each week I joined with my co-host to bring you this week in space, the latest and greatest news from the Final Frontier. We talk to NASA chiefs, space scientists, engineers, educators and artists, and sometimes we just shoot the breeze over what's hot and what's not in space, books and tv, and we do it all for you, our fellow true believers. So, whether you're an armchair adventurer, or waiting for your turn to grab a slot in Elon's Mars Rocket, join us on this weekend space and be part of the greatest adventure of all time.

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