MacBreak Weekly 867 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.


Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for MaBreakYes. Hello. I'm back Jason Snells. Here. 'Andy and Ihnatko. Alex Lindsay. We will talk about the Mac Pro. Where, what, what the heck is going on. June 5th is WW to dc. What will Apple talk about? What will they show? There is some, there are some clues in the Find my database. We'll also talk about Apple Savings. Carplay. Yes. Redux. I know you talked about it LAX last week, but I have some opinions about gm dropping it. And yeah. Maybe a, a movie or two. It's all kind. We'll talk about it in a bit. On Mac Break. Weekly, stay tuned. Podcasts you love

V.O. (00:00:45):
From people you trust. This Is TWiT

Leo Laporte (00:00:52):
This is Mac Break. Weekly episode 867, recorded Tuesday, April 25th, 2023. Take him to the train station. Mac Brake Wigley is brought to you by Ag one by Athletic Greens. If you're looking for a simpler and cost effective supplement routine, ag one is giving you a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase of a subscription. Go to athletic break. It's time for Mac Break Weekly. The show where we talk about Apple. Hello <laugh>. I've been gone for a while. Fortunately, we had some talented people to hold down the for. Thank you. Jason Snell. Six You did the first of the three weeks I was gone. I appreciate that.

Jason Snell (00:01:43):
Happy to do it.

Leo Laporte (00:01:44):
Zeppelin.Flights at j Snell.

Jason Snell (00:01:48):
Sure. If you wanna go with a mask on route, that's how you do it. You's still the

Leo Laporte (00:01:50):
Flight on Zep? You're not still on the, on the hell site are you? Twitter? You're not. I

Jason Snell (00:01:56):
I mean, I have, I have various blockers and I read a sports list there. That's about it.

Leo Laporte (00:02:00):
Yeah. I do kind of miss the, the news input that Twitter used to be, but it's so much crap now. I just mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. It makes me unhappy. Thank you. Anyway. I appreciate it. Also, Rosemary Orchard and Micah Sergeant. Appreciate your guys' hard work keeping this show afloat. Andy Ihnatko. It's great to see you again. I missed you, my friend.

Andy Ihnatko (00:02:20):
I missed you too. I enjoyed seeing seeing you guys as post to Instagram and other on Twitter. Oh, you had fun social media. You had a lot of fun. You went to a lot of places. You said you saw a lot of things and you were, you, were you it looks like you comported you, you were fine ambassadors of the United States. You weren't, you weren't just taking Blue Crayons and making a mess out of, out of 200 year old Monument. No,

Leo Laporte (00:02:42):
In every respect. We were kind and generous. I think it was eight countries in 21 days, which is a, it's just a little, that's a lot. <Laugh>. If you include Vatican City, that's a lot. Which you should. It's a, it's the smallest country. Country. Nonetheless. Also Alex Lindsay from Office Hours do Global and zero nine Media. Your eyebrows are getting bushier. I like

Alex Lindsay (00:03:06):
It. I know, I

Leo Laporte (00:03:07):
Like it. Are you going for that? It's,

Alex Lindsay (00:03:09):
No, no. I just haven't, I haven't gotten around to cutting them yet, so well,

Leo Laporte (00:03:12):
I'm gonna the hairdresser Thursday. I'll meet you there. How about that? Friday?

Alex Lindsay (00:03:15):
Friday for me. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:03:16):
We, Alex and I, we're on the same schedule. Somehow. <laugh>,

Alex Lindsay (00:03:21):
I'm way behind. I think you, you get your haircut probably three times for every time I get up there. Yeah, that's true. I get it.

Leo Laporte (00:03:26):
Cause then I want to look, actually mine's a little shaggy cuz I didn't missed

Alex Lindsay (00:03:29):
It. I didn't. Trying to, and then I'm just like, oh, I got another project. I

Leo Laporte (00:03:31):
Know who wants to, wants up there eventually, Sharon and find out all the gossip and Petaluma and all that. Yeah, I don't wanna do that. <Laugh>. So, ha I guess it's really still rumor Central until June, but catch me up on the latest thinking still No Mac Pro. What the heck, Jason is there, is there an inside story to that? No, Mac Pro. Why?

Jason Snell (00:03:59):
You know, I, I think there's some speculation that since John Turner did his little wink to the camera about it 400 days ago or whatever, but who's counting? And the answer is, I think macroom versus counting. So I I, there's some people wondering if maybe they either had a hiccup or they made a design change that it seems unlikely that Apple would promise a Mac Pro in the near future. And then more than a year later, there's not been a word about it. And now we've reached the point where Mark Gorman at Bloomberg is saying that it will not be shown at WW d c either. And so that pushes the, you know, and again, it's the Mac Pro, it doesn't sell in high volume. They can afford to have it come later. Like it's not gonna, it's not gonna hurt them, but it is curious, right. Like that they, that they did that whole, oh, that's a story for another day. Wink. And then nothing for more than a year about it. That's very mysterious. And Mark Erman says it's out there, but like, did they, we don't know. Like, did they adjust the specs or is this something about the M two chip? Or are they gonna delay to the M three? Like, we, that's the stuff where we just don't know. I

Leo Laporte (00:05:10):
Have to say, I do have to point out it is now 4 0 4 days. Coincidence. I don't know. Mac

Jason Snell (00:05:17):
Pro, not foul

Leo Laporte (00:05:18):

Alex Lindsay (00:05:19):
Well, and I, I don't think there's, I I don't see a lot of people, like the people aren't going up on whatever social network that they're using and hammering Apple for a Mac Pro. No, that's true. It is. I think that, and and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that the studios are doing so well and the Mac Minis are doing so well. Well,

Leo Laporte (00:05:37):
That's the funny thing. When I left here, the studio was dead and then I came back and it's back. So rumors, you just don't know. You can't trust a rumor.

Alex Lindsay (00:05:45):
Again, I, I think that the thing is, is that it's the, that the, the performance that we're getting out of some of these machines I love by so good studio that, that there's, that, that the, the, the group that's looking for that you know, for the MAC Pro has gotten super small, you know, and so I think that that's part of it. I think also, you know, it may be related to learnings from these perf from these machines. Like they're high performance, here's how people are using them. And, but here's the

Leo Laporte (00:06:11):
Hazard. People are gonna do what you have done Alex, which is by a PC instead when they really need the performance.

Alex Lindsay (00:06:17):
I don't, you know, I don't feel that. Like I, I, I did, I bought, but, but the PCs that I bought, I could, I still would have to buy even of Mac Pro because I was using Nvidia cards that need, I need to be Avidia card. I had four Quadra cards. <Laugh>, you know, in one pc. Right. I'm not gonna be able to do that with the Mac Pro. So, so it wouldn't really affect people like me to do that. And I think, again an enormous number of people that didn't have a solution. When the Mac Pro came out, we really didn't have a Mac the equivalent to a Mac Studio Ultra, you know? And so when you have an Al Mac Studio Ultra with a ton of ram, which I don't have, I have a max with a lot of ram, and it runs pretty fast, you know? And so think that the issue is, I'm super happy

Leo Laporte (00:06:53):
With it. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:06:54):
It does everything. Yeah. So, so I'm not, so I think that, that there was a huge jump. There was like MacBooks and imax, and then there was the Mac Pro with the studio. I think that, that, that gets, that's a much foer place and they really have to have the MAC Pro be something that is, I think it has to be extensible. It has to be, you have to be able to put cards in it. You have to be able to do, you know, change the ram. You have to be able to do some things like that to really make it, or it's not gonna, I just don't think a lot of people who are using studios are gonna necessarily jump on the Mac Pro. You know, they're gonna be like, well, it doesn't, you know, if it's just a taller Mac studio, I don't, you know, for a lot more money, it's a really hard hill to, to go up. And so I think that, I think that Apple has to, you know, figure out, you know, what they want to do there. And I think that that's still o open an opened area. Are they

Leo Laporte (00:07:38):

Andy Ihnatko (00:07:39):
For the M three? Andy?

I don't see, I, I, I don't know that the, they're necessarily waiting for the M three so much as they're observing the, the, the buzz phrase, the, this unprecedented worldwide macroeconomic situation where sales of sales of all technology are way, way down. I think that they're in a position where they're like, if whereas five years ago, if they were at this state of readiness on rolling out a macro, they would simply schedule it and go, I think now they're, they're in a position where they'd much rather just simply pick their shot where they, they don't want, they don't wanna put a machine on the market to a mark, to a set of customers that aren't ready necessarily to buy it yet. Not when they definitely can have a hit with a super upgraded MacBook Air, not when they can still have really, really good sales. With the, as Alex said, with the with the Mac Studio, they still got a lot of people lined up for money to, to spend on things they already have without trying to figure out who haven't we reached yet and doesn't make sense for us to tie up so many of our resources into doing a Mac Pro right now.

Alex Lindsay (00:08:47):
You also have hardware, hardware solutions that if Apple is going to release a headset in June, you may have had just a lot of resources pulled out of your, your Mac. There may be a lot of crossover between the Mac Pro group and the, the AR group or the, or the device group as they start to finish that up. And it may have just been sucking all of the knowledge, power into getting this other product out if it actually gets released, which we don't know. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:09:13):
Okay. I mean, I, I don't care. But that's why I query other people, especially like you, Alex, you're, you're the person in the market that's same debt. So if you don't care, then Well, I can see, I don't

Alex Lindsay (00:09:24):
Care. Like, I don't, like I, I like I thought that I, I bought a here, the only thing, the only regret I have is that if I'd known it was gonna take this long, I was really excited about the Mac Pro. I bought a Mac studio, I went ahead with the max instead of the Ultra. I didn't put as much hard drive space in. Had I known that the Mac Pro was gonna stretch out, I probably just would've put a lot more into my Mac studio. And then I probably would've been like, eh, okay. <Laugh>, you know, like, you know, and, and, and, and and so that was the only, the only

Leo Laporte (00:09:50):
Reason because even a macro, my own

Alex Lindsay (00:09:51):
Credit is not,

Leo Laporte (00:09:52):
It wouldn't give you the one thing you really want, which is an Nvidia or at least some sort of discreet,

Alex Lindsay (00:09:57):
Well, for some, for some of the stuff that I do, there's a lot of discreet things that are built around Nvidia cards that, you know, unreal performance Yeah. And other things that are that, that we, that we need for those things. And so I, I think that, you know, we want to have those, those cards and we're not gonna get those from Apple. And so when I, when I buy a PC and I put Nvidia card, it's pretty specific thing.

Leo Laporte (00:10:19):
Is it also the case that Apple really the desktop market's just not important for Apple? That, that laptops Oh,

Jason Snell (00:10:24):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it, when they last did Mac sales figures, it was what, three quarters laptops, and it's probably more than that now. And so yeah, the, the truth is this is, and the, and the most of those are gonna be imax and then there's gonna be Mac Mini and Mac Studio. Now, the Mac Pro is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction if you consider the Apple's whole business. Right? And so it's not important in that way. It's important as a flagship, it's important for certain customers and certain industries. I think, although you can make the argument that a lot of them are pretty well served by the Mac Studio and that apple's hole, apple silicon transition means that some stuff that they might want, they're just not gonna get there. Is

Leo Laporte (00:11:06):
There is a best seller though that they aren't updating, which is the iMac.

Jason Snell (00:11:12):
Right? Well, I mean, this is, I think this goes to what you said about desktops, right? It, it feels to me like we're gonna end in a cadence here where laptops are updated with every chip generation and desktops are updated with every other chip generation. But

Leo Laporte (00:11:24):
That's, that's self-fulfilling prophecy. I mean, if,

Jason Snell (00:11:26):
Right, but, but I, I, I mean, if you're Apple and, and it's like less than a quarter of your sales, then your laptops are the priority, right? And if you alternate too, so it's like, we'll have the Mac Studio one time, and then we'll have the Mac Pro the other time and we'll go back and forth between them. And then the iMac. I, I agree. I don't understand why they would be like, nah, we're not gonna bother with an M two iMac, because there are, the iMac is still used in a lot of different places, and they do make a lot of money on the iMac, so it's a little bit baffling Mac Pro, not so much, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like the Mac Pro is more about sending a message and showing what you're capable of. And, but they brought this on themselves by sort of like teasing us story for another day. What day is it? John Turners tell us what is that day? Yeah. When is it?

Leo Laporte (00:12:09):
I I have to think that John expected it to be sooner than 404 days. Yeah.

Jason Snell (00:12:13):
Yeah, totally.

Leo Laporte (00:12:14):
He didn't mean that's another day, a thousand days from now. I don't think he meant that. So he, so clearly to me, that's a point ev evidence that they thought they were gonna have something sooner and then something didn't happen. I don't know what that is. Maybe it was financial. Maybe it was technical,

Andy Ihnatko (00:12:33):
You know? And, and, and another question is, are they still trying to decide what, what defines a Mac Pro at this juncture? We've talked about this before, where a Mac Studio is so powerful for creatives right now, that you're, you're wondering what kind of people were will definitely be be holding onto their money for a Mac Pro right now. And so now the, the Gulf between Mac Pro users and non MAC Pro users has never been more distinct. Now you really are talking about people who are doing a lot of, like, number crunching a a lot of num number modeling, like financial modeling of you're wondering, I I have to wonder if they're trying to figure out if Mac u, if the, if the high-end Mac Pro users are now interested in using max, not just for augmented reality, not just for high-end editing, not just for, again, weather modeling, financial modeling, all the research sort of stuff, but also, are they developing language models with it?

Are they developing AI models with it? And does that now mean that their whole concept of what they were been building for the past two or three years is now less relevant than it used to be? And so it it behooves them to go back to the drawing board at least a little bit and make sure that they can make that cases. If you're giving, if you're gonna give us $10,000 for a workstation, this is competitive with with, with a high end Windows machine that's got four GPUs in it to to, to do all the, all that heavy lifting.

Leo Laporte (00:13:58):
All right, here's another data point. Somewhere between rumor and fact. There is a database of max that sh the fine, my configuration files are coming out and inside the fine, my configuration files, there are max that should not be in fine. My, because they're desktop. And a developer named Nicholas Alvarez noticed that this fine mine has now three new UN not before seen Mac models. And because it's this databases of desktops, the implication is there are three desktops coming. Mac now, maybe Jason, you can decipher the numbering MAC 14, 8, 13, and 14.

Jason Snell (00:14:50):
Yeah. The problem is that now they just say Mac, they used to say Yeah, more about what the, what Mac they were. Yeah. And now they don't. In fact, there's some speculation that, you know, does it even mean MacBooks and that they're just not calling them anything? Just Mac now, by the way. But it seems like it's not find my Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:15:05):
You can do it. I know. I always thought that was weird. But this, I'm quoting nine to five Mac here, which says only desktop Mac are listed in this file. Cause they're the only ones not compatible with the fine. My, oh, it's the left behind feature. Ah, so if somebody steals your desktop, you can still find it. But the left, like when you leave, I can't put it in. I, I tell you every single day on my trip <laugh>, and I kept saying, I gotta turn this off, it would say, you left your back, you left

Jason Snell (00:15:31):
Your iPad hotel. Ok.

Leo Laporte (00:15:33):
Yeah. Every single freaking day. But I know it was working, so that's good. So they, this, they don't put desktops in there for obvious reasons in,

Jason Snell (00:15:39):
In that, that category. So, so yeah. I mean, yeah, sure. I mean, what would they, what would they be there? Are there, you know, there are rumors that there is a Mac Pro, there are rumors that they're working on a Mac an iMac that's an M three, but who knows? I mean, the problem with that is like, what does it mean? And the answer is they may just putting it in there for future use. Right. You know, testing. It's

Leo Laporte (00:16:02):
Not like an FCC database where you'd go, oh, okay, something exists and they, they're testing. Yeah. okay. MAC Studio has not been upgraded since 2022. Typically, according to nine to five Mac, the 14 MAC 14 designation is reserved for M two or possibly later chips. So these are presumably M two s. The MAC Mini is a Mac 14 three, that's the M two Mac mini. The M two Pro Mac mini is 1412. So those was slot in nicely in those, those new three ones, who the hell knows? I don't know if it means anything. Right. and I also, when I left the M three was on the, you know, on the near horizon. Now it's not anymore. Right. Everything's gonna be M two in June. Yeah.

Jason Snell (00:16:56):
It feels like we reached the most obvious answer there, which was like, well, what are they gonna do if they have the M three, but then they release the 15 inch MacBook, they're not gonna release with the M two. And the answer is, well, yeah, the 15 inch MacBook Air is gonna come out and it's gonna be an M two. And then when will the M three air come out? Well, later probably this fall. Right? This fall. And, and well wait. Oh my God. They'll have two models of air and one's bigger than the other, but it has a different chip. It's like, nope. Yeah, that's, it is, yeah. I,

Alex Lindsay (00:17:23):
I do think that, that at some point, apple has to kind of sync this up. Like it is, it's really confusing. It's starting to get really confusing. I've got an M one here, an M two here, possibly an M three there. And it, it starts to feel like the mid nineties. Like, it, it's just like, no,

Leo Laporte (00:17:36):
They'll get it. I think they'll get there. It's a stutter step because of it's new. It's for early days. It is. They'll get to a yearly cadence right. At some

Alex Lindsay (00:17:45):
Point. Yeah. I, I just think, I just feel like you, you just wanna say, here's a bunch of ma here's a bunch of Mac. I mean, I just want them to get to some point as a user, I just want them to say, it's December, here's all the desktop, here's all the laptops. Like, here's how we split that chip up into a, into different ways of doing it. And I, I just think it's a lot of, I mean, I, I think that the confusion does start to like, when you're, am I waiting for this or am I waiting for that? And I think that there is, keeping that confusion keeps people buying year round. I understand that process, but at the same time, there's a little bit of, I'm just gonna hang on cuz I, you know, I find myself hanging onto computers a lot like Max, like I don't know if I wanna upgrade it because I, I just don't understand what they're doing. And so by not understanding it, I think it may be slowing down purchases as well. Mm-Hmm.

Jason Snell (00:18:29):
I mean, it's possible. I I think that some of this is that it's apple silicon and it's new and they're figuring it out. Yeah. And then they had the pandemic and they had the factory shutdowns. And so they're trying to figure out like how to sync it all back up. I do agree in the long run, you know, you shouldn't have two, two modern MacBook errors and then suddenly they have different processors in them. Ideally you'd like to do a when the M three rolls out, all the devices that are at the base m get the three and then we move on with our lives. But when it's a new product, like the 15 air, it's, you know, maybe it's outta step for a little while. I'd say the, the real complexity that we all have to deal with and confusion as buyers is the, the modern Tim Cook Apple style where they just keep old models around.

Right. I think the actual confusion is the M one MacBook Air is also still around and is it gonna stay around? I'm not sure the M two air can be discounted. I think I would probably bet that when there's an M three air, the M two air goes away and the M one air still sits there at 9 99. So that's, that's where I think it gets the most confusing is it's not even the current models, it's the old models that are still kicking around in order to, you know, in order to hit a price point.

Leo Laporte (00:19:42):
So June 5th, which is a Monday, thank you for making that on Monday so that we can talk about it. Tuesday is when WW d c kicks off. So we're, you know, six weeks away. I think it's very, I don't know when also when I left, there was some thought maybe they're not gonna release the VR AR headset, but that seems to solidify that they're definitely gonna release that

Jason Snell (00:20:10):
Release is not the word though, right? Like announce, since you've announced Reveal, it's, it's very, very announced and not release. Okay. Because the release is gonna be much later in the year. And it sounds like that has slid a lot further back. Like, this is gonna be an Apple Watch style, they'll introduce it to the world, it'll have its coming out party and then, you know, this fall sometime they'll do another event maybe in the iPhone event and say, oh, it's actually gonna shit. But that's kind of

Leo Laporte (00:20:35):
What WWDC is when you announce the new oss. So they'll announce Mac OS 14, they'll announce iOS 17, they'll announce reality OS and oh, one more thing. Here's a new OS you can add to the bunch and you might wanna start developing it for, cuz we're gonna have hardware for that in the fall. Something like that. No, yeah, well they have, they'll have to have a prototype

Alex Lindsay (00:20:56):
Maybe. I think they're gonna show it. I think they're gonna show the, I think they're gonna show the headset. They're gonna show how it fits in. Yeah. How it fits into the model. They're gonna talk about it and then, but I I, if they ship it before November, or at least before October, I'll be surprised, you know, like, well that's good.

Leo Laporte (00:21:10):
It gives me time to save up

Jason Snell (00:21:12):
Sounds. It does, it does. Let them have developers come to Cupertino to their nice new developer center. Mm-Hmm. And you know, it's just every, all the pressure gets released when you have the ability, when you've announced the product. I don't think, because like, I,

Alex Lindsay (00:21:25):
I don't think anything's happened at the developer center. I think it's all happened in Steve Jobs theater. I think it's

Jason Snell (00:21:30):
All No, no, I'm saying after it's

Leo Laporte (00:21:31):
Announced after that

Jason Snell (00:21:32):
They can spend next six months months with developers visiting them. Yeah, yeah. And doing actual development work on the hardware because the cats out of the bag. People don't have the hardware in their

Alex Lindsay (00:21:42):
Home, the simulators,

Jason Snell (00:21:44):
But they've, but they would be able to come to Cupertino and actually use a version of the hardware and do it like they did with the Apple Watch. And that is valuable. I mean, they

Leo Laporte (00:21:52):
Gotta have someone for Panzarino and Gruber and Stern to go to see the thing. Sure.

Jason Snell (00:21:58):
They'll, they'll, they'll have that too. But I mean, like, I, I remember visiting a friend at Apple Park or no at the Infinite Loop actually after the after the Apple Watch was announced and not shipping and he was wearing an Apple watch and there were people all around us wearing Apple watches and it's like the product wasn't out yet, but it's like so frustrating. That wasn't the point. The point was that the product had been announced and that it will help them cuz they can actually talk about reality os and what it is two de two developers that week instead of pretending it doesn't exist.

Alex Lindsay (00:22:25):
Yeah. And, and I think that they'll, they'll probably have a very, very large line of, of partners that they're gonna line up of like, this is what, this is what this, this group is gonna do and this is what that group's gonna do. Because the idea is to create safety for the developers of like, we're not just putting this out here and hoping you develop or something. There's something to develop for. And here are, you know, here's how Amazon's using it and Home Depot's using it and you know, whatever IKEA is using it. And so there's a whole bunch of like, this is, these are a bunch of big companies that are gonna make it nice and safe for you that, that people are actually gonna use this. And so I think that that's part of the, part of that puzzle. And again, they can have simulators that are already, you know, that show the two eyes or whatever on, on your index code so that you can start writing things and seeing kind of what it would look like and probably a simulator on your, on your phone that will let you, you know, do things that are closer to it.

And then again, I think it'll still be only sold. I mean, it'll be sold at a price that the developers will wanna buy first <laugh>. And they may make you buy, you know, buy a, they're calling it quote unquote, like, like Glass did calling it a developer addition. And you have to pay the a hundred dollars to be a developer to buy it. But then people, anybody can just pay the a hundred dollars and it's a hundred dollars more buy if we all

Leo Laporte (00:23:33):
Ship in 750 bucks, we could share one <laugh>.

Alex Lindsay (00:23:37):
Yeah, exactly.

Leo Laporte (00:23:38):
And share Pinkeye as well. <Laugh> conjunctivitis, anybody. Yeah. But that,

Andy Ihnatko (00:23:44):
But, but it's, I bet that, I bet that it can, I bet that the people who buy it, it has to be linked to their own developer account. I bet that they're gonna Oh yeah, of course. Apple's gonna, yeah. Make something in there so that you can't just simply resell it on, resell it on eBay or resell it through any other sort of market. Do you think

Leo Laporte (00:23:59):
They I have my old Google Glass. You think they'll take it as trade-in

Alex Lindsay (00:24:03):

Andy Ihnatko (00:24:07):
One more Android device off the market. I'm sure that

Alex Lindsay (00:24:09):
<Laugh> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. <laugh>,

Andy Ihnatko (00:24:11):
They're still, they're still pretty salty <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:24:15):
So June 5th to June 9th, it'll be just like it was last year, which is basically a free online event. Some developers will be invited to Apple Park to watch the keynote in State of the Union. I

Alex Lindsay (00:24:27):
Think it's all free now. Like I don't think they're charging the, they're inviting, are they charging developers used to be

Leo Laporte (00:24:32):

Alex Lindsay (00:24:33):
No, it used to be, no, it used to be $1,500 or $2,500. No, you

Jason Snell (00:24:37):
Just have to be a member and then pay your own way to get to Cupertino. But the people who are invited to be on campus are just, they're not

Leo Laporte (00:24:42):
Paying the, the Swiss challenge will happen and those students will be there. So, you know, it'll be just like last year. Actually, I think they should do that forever now at this point. It's not about covid anymore.

Alex Lindsay (00:24:52):
Oh, I, I think it's over. Well, and, and again, if you look at, like we, we were talking about it in in Office hours. Nvidia did it, their last in-person before Covid had 8,000 participants this last year they had 250,000. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:25:05):
We, we streamed it, we coached totally virtual. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:25:07):
But there's, they're not going back <laugh>. No. And

Leo Laporte (00:25:09):

Alex Lindsay (00:25:10):
Yeah. Apple's not going back, you know, and, and then so the so I don't think that that's gonna happen. It, it's too and, and again, I think that like the sessions, especially as someone who's seen a lot of those sessions the, you know, it's so much better to have pre-recorded where they, you know, it's all nice. It's, it's nice they get to do it a couple times. Yeah. to make sure it's right. And, and putting developers who, who only do this once a year in front of 300 people and having them have to do it live was just a, this is just a torture chamber, you know? And, and I and I think that it's so much more sane now. So, and it's better for the viewer cuz it looks

Leo Laporte (00:25:41):
Better. Yeah. And we'll all be watching with great interest. I mean, I don't, regardless of the ridiculous price in the, of the a ar vr r headset, I think we're all very interested in the details of it. And it'll be, you know, I don't know if we'll buy one, but it'll be very interesting to, to learn more about what Apple's thinking. The rumor from Ger, you'll buy one. Good. Thank you. I'll buy one.

Alex Lindsay (00:25:58):
I'll buy one.

Leo Laporte (00:25:58):
You save me 700 bucks. <Laugh>. mark Germond said that they're gonna throw the kitchen sink at this thing because like the Apple watch when it came out, they didn't know. They don't know what it's for.

Alex Lindsay (00:26:08):
Yeah. You

Andy Ihnatko (00:26:09):
Know, it, it sounds like more like the iPad though. The, the, the, the, the eye-opening part of this newsletter piece was that it's, he, he expects the headset to be compatible with hundreds of thousands of iPad apps, quote unquote with, with little or no modification, including most of like Apple's builtin iPad apps. And I, I find myself flip flopping on how, how I react to that if, if the, if this headset's experience is such that, oh, it's perfectly relevant to take this app that was designed for a screen that we've had since 2006, 2007, how advanced is it really? But on, but on the other, but on the other, but on the other hand, the iPad also got its foot in the door by saying, oh, and by the way, it also runs every single iPhone app that existed. If there, if, if is, if Apple is saying this as a way of, Hey, we, we, we're not gonna take two or $3,000 from you and give you something that only does FaceTime. We are gonna get, we're you're at least gonna be able to transition into using this thing. You'll be able to use this wonderful hand pointing J gesture system. You'll be able to use the, this keyboard that works with, with eye glances and stuff like that with existing iPad apps to at least give you $600 worth of value. And then the rest of it is gonna be when people start actually making actual augmented, excuse me, augmented and virtual reality

Alex Lindsay (00:27:31):
Apps for it. Well, I mean, Facebook spends a lot of time on, I mean, Oculus spends a lot of time building apps, but the, one of the most popular apps on Oculus is Netflix, right? So, so the thing is, is that is having a portable large screen that you can sit in the airport or sit in a plane or, or sit wherever, you know, in a car if you want to, although that by the way, makes you really sick. <Laugh> try it. It's like the car moving and then having an action film is really hard to watch. So anyway, but the but if you, if you do that there's a lot of those games, whether you're playing Tetris or Kingdom Rush or or checking things, it'd be really nice to have it on a big screen sickest and watch sickest

Leo Laporte (00:28:09):
I ever got,

Andy Ihnatko (00:28:10):

Leo Laporte (00:28:10):
Riding a bus in the San Francisco while playing Quake or Doom <laugh> on a laptop. And I tell you it's, I it was not good. So don't do these kids try not to do this. All

Andy Ihnatko (00:28:21):
All, all I'm saying is that I'm hoping that whatever demo they give when they, when they do show it off, isn't just, Hey, look, we can give you a virtual TV screen. And because that, that's easy. That's table stakes, that's $400 headset stuff. And, and, and, and I do think simple things like simple experiences like that are gonna be very, very important for the overall experience. You shouldn't have to, you shouldn't try to revolutionize us into 23rd century software. There are some basic things that also make such thing useful, but we're hoping that they make the emphatic point that there is something to virtual reality and our approach to virtual reality that is going to be productive and move the, move the needle forward.

Alex Lindsay (00:28:58):
And, and I think that the thing that I'm really looking for as having have been doing lots and lots of demos with an Oculus headset is what does the first 10 seconds look like when you put it on? Because the, the biggest problem you get into when you're trying to show someone something or put a headset on as you put it on, and if you don't know the little key code on the side of, I'm gonna go up down and I'm tap tap it, it is like this, you get lost in the, in the system. And so, you know, is that going to be something that's easy? I put it on and immediately knows what it's doing. Maybe I was on my iPhone and I had something and it just automatically on my iPhone when I put it on, it knows where it's gonna be and it's gonna give me what I need.

And so that first 10 seconds I think is really important. I do think that the ar nature of it, like am I gonna walk into my living room, be able to put these on and view what all the a akea furniture would look like, and more importantly be able to build it. But, but the with less swear words, <laugh> just like now with less swear words. Anyway, so but, but those are the be be the kind of things that'd be really interesting to see, you know, what that, what that looks like. And so yeah, for,

Andy Ihnatko (00:29:58):
For for, for for the record, my just like those of us are old enough to remember like the, the advent of the home computer there on the list of things you can, to justify this thousand dollars gizmo that plugs into your TV says it's like, and you can balance your checkbook with it and Yeah. To, to, to me, I've always, I've always thought that the, the same thing for for, for for VR is like sh and you can shop and see how, see what things look like. I mean, it's, it's an obvious application, but it's the sort of thing that you come up with before you actually have this in your house like 24 7. I mean, this is, this is gonna be a great year because we're gonna see it's, it's not, it's not just it's, it's the whole idea of people screwing around with it. Maybe 1000, then 5,000, then 50,000 people messing around with this and coming up with ideas that Apple is going to say, wow, that is one of the most brilliant things ever. We're gonna put your software company out of business by putting that into, into the next version of our software. Congratulations though. Thank

Jason Snell (00:30:58):
You. Or, or, or Apple acquires companies from time to time. And we have chosen to acquire you now and you know, you work for us. Congratulations, you're fired, but we have your intellectual property. Yeah, I mean that's, that gets back to what we have been saying the last few weeks about shipping the product. Like they, they, they look iPad apps, you're right Andy, they're table stakes, but they still will be useful and it's good, it's gonna be good to have them. And then you choose which apps to spend your effort on if you're Apple to make them vr e and then you see what happens, right? And like, I, I really do think it's gonna be exactly what you described, which is say this app has turned out to be very successful <laugh>. It would be a shame if something happened to it. <Laugh>

Alex Lindsay (00:31:37):
<Laugh>. Well, and, and again, I think that the other thing is, is to look at how these, how Apples are existing apps also integrate with the headset. So for instance, at NB last week, one of the big things that was bouncing around was that resolve had a huge update. You know, you know, black Magic's Da Vinci Resolve had a huge update. Premier had a huge update and nobody was there from <laugh> like talking about Final Cut. And a lot of people now, normally the, the, their Rev cycles in October, but we didn't see much in October either. So there was a whole lot of like, what is going on? And the, the, there's two theories that are floating about. One is, is that, you know, apple is really focusing more towards social. And the other one is, is that Apple is really focusing more towards ar.

We've got 3D tools that are built into Motion and Final Cut. We got 360 tools that were built into those two apps. Are they pushing and getting ready to, you know, be able to develop content, you know, for those which would take final cut from in, in motion from an a, a, a very strong video editing app, which I use a lot. And, and a and, and a 3D and a composite app to the only video <laugh>, like the only ones that are really built for, for using the new headset. So that's, it's a really interesting puzzle that a lot of people are trying to figure out what, where Apple's going with that. Also though, but how they, how do they integrate with the work stuff? Like, so am I gonna be able to send you a keynote presentation that happens to work inside of your headset and with things popping out and so on and so forth. So a lot of those things we're, we're waiting to see what no one knows until potentially June, maybe not until the fall.

Andy Ihnatko (00:33:04):
It's gonna be exciting to see if they actually do make the case that this is going to be ju just like the iPad is an alternative to a notebook for a not all productivity stuff that you would do with a laptop or desktop, but at least for many of them, it would be interesting if they make the case that these boring things that constitute 70% of how you spend your, all your day getting work done, you can at least do some of it on this headset. You can actually get through your email with it. You actually can put together presentation with it. Not just obvious VR things like, hey, you can have a meeting with this thing. It's, it's gonna be interesting to see if those eight k those rumored dual AK displays are up to the challenge of giving you a, a, a virtual 27 inch screen and a keyboard experience that you can actually be transacting information through.

Leo Laporte (00:33:56):
All right, let me take a break cuz there is actually quite a bit more to talk to, but this will be a nice place to pause. We, we look forward ww d c we're gonna cover it obviously June 5th. Are you going, Jason, do you, do you get an invite to that or no?

Jason Snell (00:34:09):
It, it, it, traditionally I have gotten a press invite, so Nice. Hopefully that will happen

Leo Laporte (00:34:13):
This year. I hope you're there. That would be very nice. And if you are, we will talk to you the following day cuz we will do a show on June 6th. So we're, you know, that's what, six weeks away from. I mean, well actually, the way I think of it, six more weeks of speculation on Mac Break Weekly five, and then we can actually talk about something. But there are some other big stories and we're gonna get to those in just a second. As you know, I have been gone for three weeks and in a, in a different time zone, actually three different time zones, which was, you know, a little hard on the body. I'm a little jet lagged, but I have to say I'm feeling better when I got home cuz my AG one came this episode of Mac Break Weekly, brought to you by AG one from Athletic Greens.

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Ah, I'm gonna put away the coffee now. John DG one every morning, baby Pruitt said it's, it's Aunt Pruitt certified. All right. I did another good thing while I was on the trip. I put all my money in Apple Savings <laugh>. Then Lisa said, did you check what the rates were with other companies? I said, what? Oh, I thought four. What is it? 4.15%? I thought, well that's a lot cuz I'll tell you why I thought that's a lot. My bank and a few other banks, including Bank of America, when you put your money in into a savings account, give you an whopping 0.01% a p y <laugh>, which is ridiculous. You, you, you might as well just, you know, put it under your mattress. So I was very pleased. Plus I'd already had, I didn't even know this because you get daily cash back from Apple.

I already had a couple of thousand dollars just sitting there. So it was fairly easy, unlike many other savings accounts. For some reason you have to fill out a, you know, you have to do a credit application, which is odd. Here's a comparison, head-to-head with Apple and Cider. And they did, thank you. They did a very nice thing. They compared it to other banks. And yes, there are a few banks, U F B via Bank Citizens Bank that have a higher rate, but it's among the highest rates out there. They do max out at 2 50, 200 $50,000, which we have learned is the F D I C limit. So that's probably a good thing. <Laugh>, you don't have to worry about that. And it's Goldman Sachs doing it, by the way. So what do we think Apple savings are? Is anybody else in the, in the Apple savings game? I haven't,

Jason Snell (00:41:32):
I haven't done it. Although I've been meaning to try it out. I I was very easy. It was better than easy. It was fast. Better. You've gotta be an Apple Card member and I think it's a, it's better than, than apple Cash. I think what I said last week is Apple Cash is this phantom zone of money, like your PayPal balance where it's sort of like they have your money and you get nothing from it. And I like the idea that Apple's saying, okay, how about you get something from it? How about you? Yeah. Make interest on what you leave in your balance. Yeah. Instead of it just, I had sitting there, I had

Leo Laporte (00:42:02):
Enough, my balance is now zero. I had $1,749 65 cents in there. Cause I, you know, bought stuff. So that's good to know that that's gonna earn a little bit of of interest. And I think you can make it automatically transfer. I think it's doing that the daily cash right into that.

Jason Snell (00:42:19):
Yeah, that's the, that's the idea is that they automatically put that in there, right? Yeah. And I

Alex Lindsay (00:42:22):
Think the ones that have a higher, that have a higher rate have to be as convenient. <Laugh>, you know, this is pretty

Leo Laporte (00:42:28):
Non convenient. Yeah. And they say, I haven't tried it yet, but I can easily get the money. I can instantly get the money outta the savings, transfer it to

Alex Lindsay (00:42:37):
Your bank account. And that's what people are saying is, is the, is the danger is being able to instantly pull money outta here. Well, yes, <laugh>. You know, so people are, you know so that's the, that's the one that's the knock on it really is that it's too easy to take money outta your savings if you're not disciplined. There's no, there's no bump there at all. But at the same time, you know, I do think that that Apple is gonna keep on going down this, as we've talked about before, you wanted

Leo Laporte (00:42:59):
Them to become a bank. Yeah,

Alex Lindsay (00:43:01):
I didn't say I wanted to, I just could see the trajectory. They would as soon as they, as soon as they announced the, the card, I was like, oh, I, I can see this. I can just see, I can see where they're gonna go with this. Yeah. Yep. And so there, there it is. Not so much a want or a need or anything else. I'm fine with what I have, but, but the which is not, I have no idea. My wife manages that. I, I don't know where any of the money goes <laugh>. So, so anyway, so the so I have no idea how that works. But but I can say that I, I just think that Apple will continue to, they don't have to take on everything to be in a bank. They, they can keep on just, you know, carving off little bits of this and getting closer and closer. What they have that most banks don't have is a huge business that requires credit. You know, so, so they have a huge, you know, like, so they, they have, they, they can literally, they're capable of building a closed system, which is a very interesting puzzle because it potentially means that they could be making, you know, they could be paying higher interest rates than most banks. If most of the loans are going to people buying products from them.

Leo Laporte (00:43:56):
I think it's trouble for traditional banks. When's the last time you went into a bank lot? The bank?

Alex Lindsay (00:43:59):
Well, there's not, there's not a lot of goodwill with most No, that's

Leo Laporte (00:44:03):
The other thing. You know, like, so,

Alex Lindsay (00:44:04):
So thing

Leo Laporte (00:44:04):
Is, is

Alex Lindsay (00:44:05):
That, you know, there's

Leo Laporte (00:44:06):
Like 0.01% you're giving me for my money 0.01%. You know, like there's

Alex Lindsay (00:44:10):
Not a lot of people that go, oh, I love my bank. You know? There's some credit unions that are pretty, you know, that are, that are pretty good. But there's not a lot of people that look at their banks and go, oh, that, that's the best thing ever. So I think

Leo Laporte (00:44:20):
There's some nervousness too after the failure Silicon Valley Bank that people are kind of going, Hmm, yeah, yeah. You don't need a be you don't need a building with columns in front. There's, there's several banks as you know, Alex in downtown Petaluma, they used to be banks that are built in the 19 hundreds that are Edisons. No, I care

Andy Ihnatko (00:44:36):
To give you,

Leo Laporte (00:44:37):
I care now to, yeah. To give you the, the, the sense that, oh, my money is safe. That's, look at the size of that safe and it's, yeah. Got columns in a ro you know, I mean it's just, it looks like the something outta ro, ancient Rome they're now all antique stores. <Laugh>, they were selling seeds for a while and that one there was a seed bank. Yeah. They called it the Seed Bank. That one's still vacant. The one you were talking about downtown, where it used to be an antique store, they turned into like a mall and then they weren't, they were gonna have a Club, a nightclub in the safe cuz it's a giant walking safe in the back. They're very cool looking. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> but nobody, the bank,

Jason Snell (00:45:13):
My, in my hometown, the old bank got turned into a candy store, which I come like, that's nice. Like you can go into the vault and buy candy.

Leo Laporte (00:45:18):
Candy. Yeah. That's

Jason Snell (00:45:19):
Awesome. Sweet.

Leo Laporte (00:45:20):
Yeah. Does that, does so mostly what we do now can be done online. And frankly I've had an online only bank U S A A for more than a decade. And now the one thing is cash, right. And some of, some of these s USAA is one will let me use any ATM and reimburse ATM fees. So I, any ATM in the world is my at tm. So that was very convenient. That's one thing missing from Apple's offering. Obviously it's a little harder to get that cash out. Yeah,

Andy Ihnatko (00:45:49):
Well that's the, that's, that's the thing, the, the, the danger to banks isn't necessarily, I, I don't think Apple wants to put any bank out of business. I think what they want to do is they want to they want to partner with financial institutions and banks such as Goldman Sachs, who do all the, all the twitchy stuff, such as keeping, keeping in, keeping in line with all the regulations locally and nationally and internationally. All the boring stuff when it comes to those signing up new people to your card. Apple wants to do that when it comes to the, the front of the user interface being No, you, you, all these people who are Goldman Sachs customers, they don't feel like Goldman Sachs customers. They feel like they're Apple customers. I would

Leo Laporte (00:46:30):
Never be a Goldman Sachs customer, except I am, but I don't. And, and

Andy Ihnatko (00:46:34):
The, and the idea and the idea that with this sa with these savings accounts, so to speak, that's, it's not so much an account so much as giving you an incentive to keep money parked in your Apple account. So you can have, you can have transactions that never actually deal with transactions through banks at all. Like you can just, you can do apple Pay at a counter that simply dips into money that you've accrued by either just putting, re refilling your card, accessing credit that you got through Apple's new credit system. Or just simply it's, it's, it's all the sexy stuff that, that you make money on that people are going to be attached to is stuff that Apple is going to be putting their hi their hooks on, but, and the banks are gonna become just the plumbers of the operation.

And because Apple is Apple, they have, there, there's a great article in Financial Times that talked about how, how thoroughly Apple was able to not necessarily beat up Goldman Sachs, but basically say, I, I, yes, you're telling me that for us to say that, that the Apple card is the most secure card in the world would be illegal? We don't think so. So we want you to do your little whatever you need to do so that we can continue to, we can actually use that, that slogan. And it was only at the very, very last hour, according to this Financial Times article that they actually caved. This is, this is exactly how Apple beat up at and t when the when they were launching their very first iPhone. And now look what they did to the, to the phone industry.

Alex Lindsay (00:47:54):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think that, and, and, and it's, it's not just that Apple is Apple, but banks are banks, you know, and banks are, you know, the user interface for banks in general, it's not great, you know, and it's just a, it's a little bit of a pain in the neck and everything's a little bit of like, quirky and, and everything else. And I think Apple's pretty good at, at ironing those things out. And I think that that's gonna be the, the thing that, that it's gonna be very hard for banks. And again, apple doesn't, you know, I think Apple's also just trying to refute to reduce the friction of transactions. You know, I think that, that, you know, reduce the friction of buying things from them <laugh>, you know, and so by, by, by, by incorporating all those pieces together, it is, it is making all of that easier.

And that, that may affect a lot of things all the way up to the App store at some point. Where all of those things are all kind of tied together. And potentially it means that Apple's able to shave Apple just shaving off 1% or 2% of the cost of transactions across all of the app store or all of their things. It's not a trivial amount of money. It's the amount of money that people could raise, you know, raise funds on, do a startup on <laugh>. So, so it's, it's so them just making it a little bit more efficient is, is is enough to do this.

Leo Laporte (00:49:03):
If there's one thing that makes Rupert Murdoch matter than spending 878 million <laugh> to settle the Dominion lawsuit, it's big tech, because he's convinced Big Tech has put his newspapers in a world of hurt. So I'm always suspicious when the Journal has a story about big tech, but I did, I did kind of have some sympathy when I saw this one. When Apple comes calling, it's the kiss of deaths, <laugh>, aspiring partners accused tech giant of copying their ideas. Aaron Tillen wrote this, you might have already, did you already talk about it? No, this came out on the 20th. So it's been since since last week. So this is Sherlocking, we've talked about this before. And frankly, this was the MO for years of Microsoft what do

Alex Lindsay (00:49:53):
They call this? CMO of every big company. Every big company,

Leo Laporte (00:49:55):
Right? Embrace,

Alex Lindsay (00:49:56):
Everybody comes to you. This is why venture capitalists ask you, what's, what is your, what, what do you have that is you know, protected? What do you have patents for? What, where's your ip? Because if you don't have any ip, a big company comes to talk to you, and they go, well, you know, that's, you know, what are you offering us? And the only thing that really protects a small company as their ip, you know, from, from a big company, there can be other structural things that give them an advantage, but for the most part, it's, it's the patents that they sit on top of. And so usually when they're buying a company, they want patents, you know, like they, they want to see patents that, that, that, that are, that they can't get on their own. But otherwise, you know, why, you know, there's not a lot of good reason for them to, to,

Leo Laporte (00:50:36):
Well, the premise of this isn't merely that they buy the company this, that they say, oh, we're very interested. Come bring us everything. We're gonna do due diligence. Microsoft used to do this. Google used to do this. Amazon is known for doing this. They take a look at the product, they say, oh, thank you. I guess we're not gonna buy it. And then later, they either make it or, and or steal employees from the old company. I, I

Alex Lindsay (00:50:59):
Will say, what's usually left out is there is a little bit of a dance there where they, they say, how much do you want for it? And you have to pick a good price. Like, I had a big company come to, to my, one of my former companies and said, Hey, we're really interested in, in something that you have there. And I was like, oh, that's great. And I showed them how it worked, and they asked how much, and I said, this is how much you can buy it for, this is how much you can use it for. And they, they didn't wanna buy it. They just wanted to use it, you know, for, for something that they were doing. And and we negotiated a price, and I, and I sold them the use of it <laugh>, you know, for it, because I knew that if I didn't sell them it, you know, the, the, the issue is as a small company, what I knew was it has to be easier to buy the service from me than it is to make it.

So I just knew where I knew how, how much effort it was going to take. The where I set the number was where it was slightly below what it would take to do it themselves, or really half of what I thought I would do, take them, do it themselves. You know, and, and the goal was there was to keep it under that radar. And I, you know, walked away with pretty good check <laugh>, they kept my company going for quite some time. You know, and so but, but that was, but that dance, you're dancing, you know, you're like a little, you're like a little, a little <laugh> a little, a little bear dancing with a really big bear, and you just have to make, it's

Leo Laporte (00:52:15):
A bear hug. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (00:52:17):
You know, and, and, and so, so I think that, I think that there's usually, they're not having that conversation and not talking about money. They're just trying to figure out is it worth buying? You know, are you going to give them a number that's lower than what it would take for them to develop the themselves? And you just have to know where you are in the food

Leo Laporte (00:52:31):
Chain. Well, and, and the journal also asserts that and a Live Core be an example of this, that Apple not only will take the technology and use it, but then sue you for <laugh> after the fact, for daring to have the technology. Apple says it doesn't we don't steal technology. We respect the intellectual property of other companies. We've paid for 25,000 licenses, more than 25,000 licenses over the years. So is this a hit piece from the Wall Street Journal or is it a legitimate complaint? And as, and as you said, I mean, this is something big companies have done. Microsoft Famous

Andy Ihnatko (00:53:07):
Call. Yeah. I, yeah. And, and, and also there's, there's a reason why you can't get <laugh> Google Cast support on Sonos wireless speakers, because yeah, Sonos and Google are suing each other because Sonos says that they, they did basically the same thing that that's been outlined in this Wall Street Journal article about health companies interacting with Apple that we showed you. They, they, they had lots of meetings with Googles about about their wireless speaker technology, and then soon enough, Google come up with their own solution instead of supporting Sonos. And there's now those whole bunch of losses about it. I, I wouldn't call it a hit piece because they, they come up with like three different examples. That doesn't necessarily, it doesn't necessarily say that, oh, apple, there are, there are a bunch of evil mustache twirling jerks. More like if, at even at best, you can say that this is a huge company like Ev like all huge companies that will definitely negotiate in their best interests.

I mean, they're, the, the, all the examples they're giving are, are related to the Apple Watch. And there's a company called Massimo that does blood, did, does or did bloods blood oxygen measurement devices that work very, very closely with Apple and said, oh, we want to Apple having meetings with them saying, Hey, we want to figure out let's get together and see how we can compliment how we can integrate your technologies into this, that, and the other. And then after like three months of essentially like showing off everything that they had to Apple <laugh>, they got 'em, they, their, their, their chief, well, the chief medical engineer, a chief medical officer saying, Hey we're, I'm, I'm quitting the company, I'm joining Apple right now. They not only Apple took all, excuse me, integrated strikingly similar features and technologies into the Apple Watch, and then started suing Massimo to invalidate all of their patents, <laugh> so that they, so that they couldn't necessarily defend themselves. And as I said, it's, it's, I don't think that it's a mustache twirling operation from Apple, but it, it shows how large companies interact with smaller companies and that Apple is no different than anybody else. And well,

Leo Laporte (00:55:12):
And the next day, Aaron published another article in the Wall Street Journal saying, apple is going to Sherlock Day one which I'm a little miffed about because I love day one. On the other hand, apple says, this is part of our health initiative, is the idea that it's good for you to journal daily. So they're gonna add, according to this, and again, it's only a rumor. Apple hasn't said anything. Iphone journaling app I, you know, I used day one. I used, actually, I used it on the trip and it was so great, cuz it will suck in your location, the, the weather where you are. And then I had put pictures in it and I can print a book and stuff. I just, I love day one. I've been a premium subscriber for more than a, well, I think since it started forever. Yeah.

Jason Snell (00:55:57):
Here's the thing about Sherlocking. Sherlocking very rarely kills products, right? Because Apple, when Apple does a version of a, you know, if Apple does a journaling app, it's gonna be a basic journaling app. It's not gonna have most of the features of day one. It's gonna be pretty basic. And they're gonna do it because they feel like it is, it enriches their their platform. And also they have, and, and I think this is an interesting thing to have a conversation about at some point, is they also, apple has access to data that they wouldn't necessarily wanna share with a third party app, but that they could have on your device and then allow you to insert like they know where you've been and all of that. Now, the right way to do it is to do your journaling app and have it use a new API that day one can also use, but in general, apple is not ever interested in making an app with a level of functionality that a third party app has.

A third party app that is no better than a generic, like a Notes app that's no better than Apple's Notes app. Well, that product is probably doomed. But the fact is, the other notes apps are way beyond the basic stuff that Apple puts in there. And I would say in general, this the, the Wall Street Journal story, you know, it, it is true any big company that's, that's scrutinizing you, it's like the eye of Saan has come upon you, right? <Laugh> it it is. And, and it's not. Well Apples here, they're gonna rifle through your couch cushions and take all your stuff and hire away all your people. It's gonna be Uhoh, a big company is interested in what I'm doing. And there are only a few ways that that can go. Cuz they're either gonna decide to buy you or they're gonna decide that it's important enough that they're gonna do it anyway, or they're gonna pass on, and then you're not gonna have to deal with them anymore.

And that, that everything else comes from that. So like, you know, I don't think you could portray this as a story of like, oh, Apple's just searching for ideas to steal. I don't think it's that. I think it's more like Apple knows that they need a, they need new feature for the Apple Watch, and they talk to a company and say, should we acquire them? And then they look and they go, well, what are their patents? They're not great. And what's their asking price? Eh, you know, is it, is it worth it? Is it not worth it? And, and then you talk about their people and it's like, in California, non-competes aren't enforceable and people should be able to work where they want. And so if Apple looks at your company and says, your patents aren't great, your people seem interesting, we, we think this needs to be not just an accessory, but fundamentally part of our platform.

And then you hire away that person and you start building, and then maybe there are lawsuits like I I'm sympathetic to anybody who has the Eye of Saharan fall upon them. But also I I, I understand that in the history of Sherlocking, so much of it is like the question of, well, is Apple supposed to never do this ever because there's an app somewhere out there? Because the fact is Apple putting it into the system means that vastly more people will use it than would ever go download that third party app. Plus I'm telling you, sherlocking doesn't kill apps. It, it, it, other than apps that are so much the baseline that cuz Apples apps are never gonna match up in, in all those edge cases, they, they, they're, they're like pop hits. They're meant to be for the, you know, in the 90% of features that 90% of feature of users will use. Not like a, any good third party app is gonna be better than the stock app because the stock app's not meant to do that.

Andy Ihnatko (00:59:10):
Yeah. I, I, I, I agree with that. Are you, can you keep, I mean, apple on, on a, on a very real level is another developer that's contributing to the platform. And you can't tell them that just becau just, this is a really, having some sort of a journaling feature is something that I'm, I'm betting that a lot of their advisors, internal and external have been saying that. Just the, just the idea of at the end of the day, at a cer at a fixed time, at the end of the day, just give the people a series of emojis saying, how do, how do you feel? How, how's your wakefulness? How is your energy level today? How is your this, how is your, that just by touching just simple, simple emojis on there. It wouldn't be something you can't simp simply say that just because Day one has a massive app that does comprehensive journalism journaling for any reason that you might wanna maintain daily Journal.

That's no reason for Apple not to participate in that market. And, and just as the, the the example of Notes apps is another, is a really good example to use because you know that Apple's not gonna give you <laugh> a multi-platform answer to this. Whereas day one, the reason why I pay for day one is that it is multi-platform. I can use it on pretty much any device that I used. It's, it's just that the only, the, as part of this conversation sometimes though, I wonder if apple couldn't do better by its users by saying, you know what, we're not gonna put every single feature packed into Mac Os, into iPhone os, into Watch os We think that journalism is a, journaling is a really, really good feature, but we don't want to increase the load that's on this device.

We don't wanna make, we, we don't wanna keep adding features because adding features is what causes a three-year-old watch to suddenly feel like a seven year old watch because you're putting so many, so much more processing demands on, on the damn thing. And if Apple were to say, you know what, we're not gonna necessarily bless one of these apps, but if we decide that a journaling feature is a really important thing as Jason, as Jason said, we're gonna create an API so that you, that you can feed information from your journaling app into the health app in a way that is secure and, and respectful of people's privacy, but still delivers that benefit of a daily check-in. And did you eat okay? Did you sleep okay? Do you feel like you were in attentive today? Did you feel, how was your depression today?

How was your mood today? Did you, Dr, did you drink today? Did you engage in other bad habits that you don't wanna you're, that you're trying to limit? It's there, there's a, there's a, there's a, you could see that every time there's a no, there's a new feature for a Notes app. It's like, okay, but why didn't you just keep it really, really simple and make it so that this has no overhead? This is no, this is, this doesn't, for people who don't use the Notes app very much, it's not gonna cause a, a drain on my resources. So there that, there's, there's a long discussion we have, but I'm, I'm sure that it's okay for Apple to put features into their own devices and let, let let other people have to deal with it.

Alex Lindsay (01:02:06):
And I think that, I think that a lot of times for people who are passionate about something like the, like the day one is they're gonna keep on using what they're using, you know, and they're gonna keep on going down that path. For people like me, I don't know if I'll Jo Journal or not, but like with notes, like, I know that's a lot of things that have more features than notes, but I know how, I've been using notes for a long time and, and I'm very attached to it. And there's a couple features that I'm, I keep on asking for. You know, just being able to draw over top of text would be great. But, but but those, but I think that as a user, I do want to see more features there because I use it every day, all day.

Like notes is open all the time on my computers and and I'm constantly keeping track of everything. And sometimes they're ephemeral and sometimes they're permanent, and a lot of times they stay permanent even though they're meant to be ephemeral, which turns out to be super useful. And so I think that Apple adding these, I mean, that's part of the, I think it's part of why Apple users like app, you know, like, it is because we're getting, you know, we get these new little apps that are building, I think Apple telling a story of health and efficiency and productivity that, that they just are gonna keep on adding. And I think that as a smaller company, you have to, every time someone, you know, comes into the room, <laugh>, you have to know where you, where you stand and what, what do you have?

Yeah. What's the angle? Like, what's your angle? Because I mean, I've had lots of small companies and you don't, you know, you, you're not gonna be able to you know, we've had stuff where we beat, we work with a company, we build entire feature sets around their product, so not to go head-to-head with it, because yeah, going to head-to-head with it would either, would most likely have them turn it on on theirs, you know? So like, we just build, like, you know, there's a whole bunch of things that we'll build around it so that we can develop everything else we need. And then when we stop working for them, we add the other piece in <laugh>, okay, now I'll add this in, but we're not gonna necessarily expose it to those companies. And that hasn't been Apple, it's been other big companies, but they've all been really big companies.

And so, so I think you have to be, you have to be aware of that. And, and, and it's the nature of, if you don't wanna be in that position, you gotta grow out of it. You gotta grow, you gotta grow to a size where you're big enough to fight the bear. But if you're not, if you're not big enough to fight the bear, then don't fight the bear. Like, and, and it is the, it is nature. Like saying that it's not fair is kind of like saying it's not fair that the bear eats the, the fish, the fish. You're like, this is a bear. It's kinda like, well, it's a bear

Andy Ihnatko (01:04:12):
At, at, at, at the end of the day, we're just gonna hope and pray that a company big enough to turn our lights out does never decides to compete with us. That's not a business plan. <Laugh>.

Alex Lindsay (01:04:23):
Yeah. Yeah. Hope if that isn't

Andy Ihnatko (01:04:24):
A business plan, you might want to address that

Alex Lindsay (01:04:26):
<Laugh>. Yeah. Hope is not a strategy, you know, and you're just like, you know, and, and you just have to, you know, know usually if you go into a bus, you know, if you go into a, a startup process, I'm in a startup process right now, so I'm like doing presentations. One of the first questions is, is how you're gonna manage competition? What if, what if this big company does this? What if big this big company does that? And you have to have good answers, at least good ideas for that process.

Leo Laporte (01:04:46):
Well, good. I don't want day one to go out of business. I really like day one. You use it, Andy, does anybody else use it? No, just, just me and Andy. But look at, look at this. This is you know, as

Alex Lindsay (01:05:00):
A, as, as someone who grew up in politics, they're like, you're like, no.

Leo Laporte (01:05:03):
Oh no, they have encryption. Oh no, they have end to end encryption.

Alex Lindsay (01:05:05):
Even with encryption. Even with encryption, it's like

Leo Laporte (01:05:08):
They have end to end encryption. So actually that turns off some features because with end to end encryption, you, you can't, you know, there's some things you do, but I have to say, and yeah, you're right, you probably wouldn't, you put your deepest, darkest feelings into this. But it's great for traveled a travel diary. I'm able to totally put in your fam

Andy Ihnatko (01:05:30):
As, as, as you, as you've said a couple times, your family owns a golf course. And you know what, a lot of problems get solved at that golf course, if you know what I mean. At 2:00 AM with a backhoe <laugh>,

Alex Lindsay (01:05:39):
Every time, every once in a while we have to dredge the pond. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:05:43):
Exactly. So there's a show called the,

There's a show with with kind of my, it's kind of the Sopranos meets the ranch ranchers called Yellowstone. I don't know if guys have seen it <laugh>, but there's a, but whenever there's a problem and they want to get rid of somebody, they Kevin Costner says take 'em to the train station. Which it turns out <laugh>, it's just over the border into Wyoming, and there's a big tip there. It somehow there's a county that has no police jurisdiction and there's a big cliff, and they just, that's the train station. So there you don't want to have, I

Andy Ihnatko (01:06:19):
Just, I I just, I just imagine like Alex staying to his dad. Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go hit the back nine at 2:00 AM Yeah. And then, and and, and his dad just says, just, just replace your divot <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:06:34):
Exactly. If you know what I mean. Yeah. I have to say all the pictures that I end up putting in my day one journal, you know, this was a conundrum As I was leaving, I thought, do I need, do I want to bring a camera system, you know, very expensive, fancy camera system with Sony and Leica and all that. And and I decided I'm gonna just do it. Let me try this with just my iPhone. Yeah. And iPhone 14 promax. And then I also brought an Insta 360 camera, which I used as a sparingly, but there were a few places where I was glad to have it, but honestly, I don't know if I'll ever bring a fancy camera anywhere, ever again. It was just easy. And this is one example where day one, because it will pull right from Apple Photos, it couldn't have been easier to create all of this.

Andy Ihnatko (01:07:24):
Yeah. The, the, the, the, the thing that clicked for day one for me was when I realized that there are a lot of things I'd love to post to Twitter or a lot, lot of ideas and things and thing things that come into my head and things I'm experiencing, but like, oh no, that's too personal. That's too private. Right. And for me, my day one journal is like a blog to my that only I, a

Leo Laporte (01:07:42):
Personal blog. Exactly. You tempted to tweet it. And many people do. And Elon, you probably should stop, but having a place that you can get that outta your system that isn't fully public, I think is great. Day one's really good for that. Anyway thank you. Day one, and actually there was a good piece on Six Colors. Joe Rosen Steele wrote this. Yeah. have you considered using a camera <laugh>?

Jason Snell (01:08:11):
Yeah. That was a member piece that that Joe wrote. And yeah, he, he was like, why don't you go out? And it's not, you should use a camera instead of your phone. It's not that. It's, why don't you go out for a walk with a camera and your phone and take some pictures and observe how they're different. Get out an old point and shoot, or, or a compact camera, something with an SD card in it and see the difference, because you'll see the things they do well and the things your phone does well. Right. And you end up in a place where you're like you know, just be aware. Be aware of the difference. And you may appreciate your phone camera a lot more. You may also appreciate when that other camera that's in the drawer might be appropriate. And I, I, I just, I really enjoyed that.

I just was in New Zealand for a couple of weeks and didn't take a camera with me. Ah, interesting. Yeah. I think I've reached the point now where I feel like taking a standalone camera is something you do if you really enjoy shooting pictures. Right. But if what you want to do is capture memories of your trip, I don't think you need to. Right. You don't need to do it. You just bring your phone. But if you want to take pictures and like, won't be fun to take pictures of the beautiful scenery where I'm going, then you bring a camera and, and that it's back to being a hobby.

Leo Laporte (01:09:19):
I was backs stopped a little bit cuz Lisa did bring her om one. So she had a good camera with an nice assume. And that's the one thing I really, you know, the ability to do urine, goudy's, sareta familia Cathedral or somewhere, and you wanna see a detail on a cherub that's a hundred feet up. Yeah. She could get that. And I really couldn't. On the other hand I have brought cameras in the past and spent a lot of times doing, you know, artistic photography and missing stuff and not really having a good record of the trip. This is a, a picture I took with my iPhone in in the Monaco Harbor. And I think you can't really tell on the stream, but it's certainly good enough to print. And I don't, you know, I don't feel like I, there weren't many shots I missed, but occasionally Lisa would take a shot and and I would say, oh, I want that one. Let me, let me see. Oh, I know where a good one was and I don't know if it's in here or not, but she took a close up Insta Familia. Exactly. Now, by the way, you might say, oh, that's clearly a, a des lr. No, that's portrait mode <laugh> on an iPhone. I was, I was very happy with the shot. I think these are all iPhone shots actually come to think of

Andy Ihnatko (01:10:30):
It. Yeah. Now, now that so many, not even the top le top tier cameras have really good telephoto actual, actual separate tele.

Leo Laporte (01:10:40):
Yeah. I brought a Samsung Ultra you you 23, but I didn't even need that so much. You know, I mean, it has a pretty good zoom. This is Lisa's good camera, so there is a little more detail. It's a little better, but you know, it's,

Andy Ihnatko (01:10:54):
Yeah. It, it, it, it definitely comes down to like, I, I am a photography hobbyist. I love just, I I I I I love having that camera slung around, slung around my shoulder and my hip. I love walk, taking a walk in an unfamiliar city city and looking for, I know that there's a picture here somewhere. Yeah. It's gotta go find it. Yeah. That and that's a lot of fun. But when I'm, when I'm out with people, <laugh> with friends, I leave it at home. At best. I take my little pocket camera with me because I know that I am going to, there, there, my, my camera roll on in Lightroom and in apple photos and Google Photos. There is like if I, if it was a day I had just my, just my my phone camera, it's like, okay, snapshot.

Really? Ooh, nice picture. Ooh, nice picture. Nice picture. If I had my real camera, it will be like, ooh. The, the sunlight on the Empire State Building is absolutely perfect. It's shading some of it, and I know I wanna frame it correctly and there will be 500 pictures of different angles and different croppings and different things framing it. And so much, so much so that I'd never actually <laugh> Yeah. Takes step to get around to editing except have to fix which of these 500 is the, is the decisive moment. Whereas with the picture, you take it, you enjoy it, you move on. Well, and

Leo Laporte (01:12:05):
It does the gps, so you know the location it has.

Alex Lindsay (01:12:08):
Well, and, and an I photo like, or in photos, you know, the, the problem for me is that also it's like, oh, I took that with that camera. Now I didn't, now I have to figure out when I'm gonna import it into the Yes. You know, does it have any data and does it, you know, like I have all these old photos that I'm slowly bringing in. You know, I don't have 'em all in I photos just cause I'm making make the library really big and, and I'm trying to fig figure out where to do do those, I'm like, oh, I know there's a photo of that. But I'm like, oh, I took that with an S slr, so that's gonna take no time <laugh>. You know, like, like, oh, that's gonna be ugly. It

Leo Laporte (01:12:35):
Doesn't have the meditating. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (01:12:36):
Yeah. The culture also is that, you know, my kids like, they relate to the camera completely differently cuz to them all they know is the phone camera. And like my daughter, like this is a picture. I was my, we were having breakfast in Berkeley and I took, you know, she's like, here, give me the photo. Give me the camera. This is her asking for the camera. And then she grabs it and in one second she shoots that <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:12:55):
Ah, love that. Because she's a native, she knows that's right. And

Alex Lindsay (01:13:00):
That puts it back. She just hands it back to me. But literally she just grabbed it, took the picture, and then handed it back to me. Like that was the picture she wanted to take. And, and, and there's, there's so many like known quote unquote known photos that they, they just know how to do that it, right. That is taking nothing that you would do with an S l R. It's a completely, you couldn't,

Leo Laporte (01:13:18):
You probably couldn't do that easily with an s lr. It's, it's hard to describe, describe that, but it's she's using the wide angle and it's, it's above her. And you

Alex Lindsay (01:13:26):
Got her eyes really big and

Andy Ihnatko (01:13:27):
Super white. Yeah, yeah. To say, to say nothing of how, how how conversant they are in video. Yeah. Oh yeah. It's like I, I still, you know, when whenever you see me post a video to something, it's not because I'm, I'm pivoting to video. It's because I'm still trying to crack that myself and trying to figure out how do I tell a story efficiently through video and how do I do a workflow mm-hmm. <Affirmative> so that it, it doesn't take four days and wind up me thinking, why am I bothering with any of this? Whereas this generation that, that grew up with a decent camera in a decent video camera in their pocket with software for a simple, like, not only your editing, they are so expressive with it. There's so many YouTube channels that, and talks that I subscribe to just because my God, these teenagers and, and people in their early to mid twenties, they are such good video storytellers.

They're such like, even I, I don't care. I I really don't care about the sewing project that they're, that they're showing off. It's like they got their boy, they got the master, they got the tight shot, they got the B roll. They know when to, they, they know how to break up like a long monologue with, with varying like moving the camera in and out every once in a while. I am so in awe of them. And again, this is the sore of thing that if you grow up in a, in a world with chat G p t, you will learn how to write in a way that anybody who grew, who learn how to write without Chad g p t will never be able to comprehend. Yeah. So I hope, I hope to see them just as befuddled in 10 years <laugh> as I am <laugh> with with, with great videographers.

Alex Lindsay (01:14:58):
And by the way, like one of the things my kids have gotten a lot out of is they go to the Apple store when they go to LA and visit their grandparents. I guess one of the models that my grand, that their grandmother has is to take them to the Apple store and just hang. She hangs out and they, and they take classes there. And the Apples, by the way, the Apple store classes are really good. Like they are free in the app in the Apple store. And they, you know, come out of it knowing a lot about how to take per, you know, more advantage of their iPads or their phones or whatever. So if you're, if you're listening, you should always look at what those Apple classes are because they're, they're for kids especially, I mean, I feel like I need to go there to learn. Cuz my, my daughter was like, she was like playing garage band and, and she was, and I listened to this song and I was like, who made that song? She's like, I did <laugh>. Like, and I put, I put this all together in Garage Band. And so

Andy Ihnatko (01:15:42):
Yeah, 100% because this is not, this isn't just, oh, well they there there was a memo from corporate saying that, Hey, make sure you do an iMovie seminar. And then, oh yeah, the person at the store who knows iMovie is doing, is gonna do like a put together a class. It's like, this is really extensively produced educational content that they've developed.

Leo Laporte (01:15:59):
Well, let me tell you all their stores, I sent my son to see you Boulder to get a broadcast degree. And he was doing video editing classes. He said, dad, these guys are terrible. I hate the stuff they're doing. I said, son, you need to learn the basics of video editing <laugh>. Yes. Before you can do edit. Of course now he, you know, he's on TikTok and he's doing his own editing and it's much better than anything I would've ever imagined. Yeah. And because he is native, this is native to his, you know, it's vertical. How many years have I said never shoot

Alex Lindsay (01:16:28):

Leo Laporte (01:16:28):

Andy Ihnatko (01:16:29):
<Laugh>? Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:16:30):
Mm. I guess I was wrong. Here's an example by the way. I'll, I'll give you an example of where Lisa's good camera trumped my camera. So this is there was a detail in one of Goudy's houses of that cherub. And I love that that was the best I could do with the iPhone. Lisa had the same idea and she was able to zoom in and then do post processing and really get a great image of that cherub. So yeah. But she had to do post, she doesn't mind post. I didn't wanna do post by the way. That's why I stopped using the Insta 360. So the difference between cuz I was able to get great video with the iPhone. The difference is with the iPhone, you have to decide before you press the button, what you want a picture of, what's the subject? <Laugh> with the Insta, it takes everything.

And then in post you decide what you want the subject to be. So it's a little, you know, you have to post it unless you're gonna post a 360 degree video on YouTube. I will eventually put 'em all up there. But we did, we, I have a seven or eight minute one where we're wandering through the Roman forum and, and Riz with a guide. And it was wonderful. And it was perfect for the 360. But the, I'm, you know, I still haven't edited it. I don't know if I'll ever edit it. That's a, yeah,

Andy Ihnatko (01:17:37):
That's what I'm looking forward to. When, when Apple and Google and all these other services really hone their, they their AI editing tools where it will, it will assimilate. It will assimilate like a day's worth of random video and photos and give me a first Insta

Leo Laporte (01:17:52):
Does that. Now Insta, Insta has an AI thing that they do that's apparently, I didn't, I didn't do it. I have to say, and I will, you know, I've been as ai rather mixed reality skeptic, Alex, and you have, I have tussled over this for a long time. But that was the one place where I thought, okay, Alex was right because I wouldn't want a, I wouldn't want a VR headset as I'm wandering around ancient Rome. Right. But I would love ar spectacles where I could flip a switch and say, what did that monument look like

Alex Lindsay (01:18:23):

Leo Laporte (01:18:24):
2000 years ago? And you could wander through the forum and see it as it's

Alex Lindsay (01:18:29):
Today walking and imagine being able to see people walking around and you hear, you hear the sounds and the music and the everything else. I, I

Leo Laporte (01:18:35):
Told our a guide who's, you know, Roman grew up heard spending a life there. I said, you know, I'm gonna, we're gonna come back here in a 10 years and we'll be wearing those and you can still guide us, but we will be seeing what you're telling us about right now.

Alex Lindsay (01:18:49):
And it was nice to say that you would, that he'd be still guiding you because the, the thing that's going, I really won't

Leo Laporte (01:18:53):
Need him. No, I know. Yeah.

Alex Lindsay (01:18:54):
Well, the, the main thing is, is that between GPS and, and, and ultra wide band, you'll be able to sit there and go, now I walk and it knows that roughly it's got 20 minutes to talk to you while you're walking to the Coliseum. Right. And so it's going through it and everybody goes as you, but as you're walking, it knows where you're at. So it just interrupts and goes, oh, by the way, if you look to the right, these are the ruins of the baths or Yeah. You know, whatever it is. And then, okay, now go keep it going straight. And if you go the wrong way, no, no, no. Turn back. You're the wrong way. We're

Leo Laporte (01:19:17):
Kind of already there. There's this is something Johnny Jet told me about, and I use this in Rome There are some commercial programs you can buy, but this is done by, this is like a wiki done by people who, when they go somewhere, they, they record something. And as we wander through Rome, you just leave it on and with your headphones in and as you walk by something it says on your left and all of a sudden you'll hear about this thing and then it's silent until you get somewhere else. But it's just small distance from what you, just from this to what you just described Alex. And I think that's absolutely coming. Well,

Alex Lindsay (01:19:51):
And absolutely, you know, and I, I wrote a business plan for this in 2000 cuz I was going around on a GPS on my com, like a gps. Yeah. The

Leo Laporte (01:19:57):
Phone knows exactly

Alex Lindsay (01:19:58):
Where you all are and, and I, and I was like, eventually this will be in cars, so this'll be a lot easier. We

Leo Laporte (01:20:02):
Did that in

Alex Lindsay (01:20:02):
Hawaii and now you can just, you can just wander

Leo Laporte (01:20:05):
Around. We bought a travel guide was on the phone, downloaded it, and we drove the Hana the Road to Hana. Right. And it describes it as you're going. And it was that kind, it was kinda like, it was wasn't the best production. It was like kind of having your pompous uncle in the backseat Yeah. Saying, you know, over there <laugh>. Right. If you turn left now the best shave ice and why but <laugh>, but Right. It's still better than doing it on your own and I think it's gonna get better and better. So I'm now convinced if we can get to that point where ar can be something lightweight that I can wear, still see the real deal. But if I want Superposed

Alex Lindsay (01:20:43):
Or, or not even, not even not even wearing it around, like for instance, if you walk into, you know, you could walk to Gettysburg and go to little round top Exactly. And go, yes, but you could be ex experiencing it all. But then there's like a little, a little plaque, you know, on little round top somewhere and it, and it just has like the headset, you know, symbol on it or whatever. And you stand on it and you put this, this on and suddenly it just shows you what it would've been like during, well, you know the battle, there're already

Leo Laporte (01:21:11):
Your QR codes everywhere. Right. Don't have to. But you know, like the

Alex Lindsay (01:21:15):
Key is though, is you didn't, you wouldn't have to wear it around all the time. You just set it down. But that, that's what it comes back to. That first 10 seconds that I'm talking about that has been a real problem for these is like, how do I get to that thing? And so I need to be able to get to that thing and put it on and immediately have it just show me what I was, what I want to do. And when you reduce that friction, a lot of people would use it.

Andy Ihnatko (01:21:34):
Yeah. I, I just, I just like to see more stuff like that though. Transported strictly to a handheld device like your phone. Because if, if you aren't Gettysburg, if you are, it's a lot of these really wonderful historic sites. Maybe if you thought ahead, you have binoculars that so that you can see things closer and see things that that you think are more interesting. I don't want something to cover up my eyes and, and basically and basically decide what I see and how it's enhanced. I want some, I would love to see something where, geez, what, what's that little mound over there? And hold up my phone. And now I'm seeing an annotation of, oh, well actually that is where a whole bunch of horses were buried because they were being killed so quickly that they just couldn't get 'em, get 'em off the field.

I don't, it, this is gonna be a really, really big part of this equation, trying to figure out where are are people gonna want to put goggles on and take them off when needed? Like just like binoculars will again occupy 100% of your vision. What are you using them? But then you put them down and you, you hang 'em around your neck? Or is our other technologies gonna be better for that? With it's I I think that some of the best technologies are just ones that help technology get out of our way as opposed to the, as opposed to ones that kind of create this digital layer between us and the world around us.

Alex Lindsay (01:22:54):
Yeah. And I agree. I think that some of these things, like when you build the technology, it's something that could easily work in both the, you know, with the phone, you can pick up the phone and just get the ar experience. Right. Or you can put the goggles and get a deeper experience, but it, it doesn't have to be one or the other. Sure.

Leo Laporte (01:23:11):
I, I look forward to that day and I hope I will be around because Romans, I mean the big thing is, is that an example of somewhere or Gettysburg where you really know there was all this history but there's no trace of it or very little trace of it left. And to be able to superimpose that would be amazing.

Alex Lindsay (01:23:25):
And you think about the number, when you think about the money related to this, if you think about the Rome and how many people come to Rome, I don't know what that number is, it's probably

Leo Laporte (01:23:33):
Oh, it's amazing. 50 it's mind, something like that. Right?

Alex Lindsay (01:23:35):
Yeah. Yeah. And imagine if, if 1% of them spent $30 on the guide that was this super interactive guide, what is that number? And then multiply to all the other sites, it could be like that <laugh>. So it's a big business. The hard part is getting over the risk, you know, managing the risk. And I think that that's, that's gonna be up to Apple when it, when it releases some of this stuff. It has to go out and, and, and pay people to, to take that risk Yep. To absorb that risk. Yep. So that, that people can see what's possible. Yep. And then because Apple, apple needs to do that, that's what they didn't do very effectively with iBooks right. Is they didn't absorb the risk and and create something that is and prime the pump make more of them. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:24:13):
Once you prime the pump, the flow comes. Yeah. And

Alex Lindsay (01:24:16):
With six years and 10, you know, I don't know, billions and billions of dollars, it would be worth spending a billion dollars on content. Which is, you know, so it'll be interesting to see what, what Apple actually executes. But that was what I think that hopefully is a key learning from myBooks, was they just totally failed that that process. Because they didn't prime the pump. They, they went to established book textbook folks and thought that that would be the answer, which was I think was clearly not <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:24:41):
Did you guys last week talk about apple and CarPlay and GM? Did, was that an old story? Oh, did

Jason Snell (01:24:48):

Leo Laporte (01:24:48):
You did. Yep. Okay. Yeah, because that resonates with me. One of the reasons I bought a Ford instead of a Tesla. It's cuz I don't want, I wanted CarPlay. It really is worth it. Yeah. GM is joining Rivian and Tesla and not having CarPlay, but Ford says they're gonna do CarPlay forever or at least until Tesla.

Alex Lindsay (01:25:10):
Well, and and the thing is, is that the, the problem is is that you have, you know, Tesla was able to do that for a long time because they were the only ones with a really cool electric car. But we're past that now. Yeah. You know, and so the thing is, is that I think Tesla is going to, you know, there, there are gonna be sales to people who are going, well, I really want my whole life integrated here. I don't want to necessarily jump out of that to jump into another car. So I think that's the challenge that Tesla's gonna have. And Rivian and, and gm, I mean, GM is really like Rivian and, and Tesla. I kind of go, well maybe they get

Leo Laporte (01:25:38):
Away with the gm. I don't know. That's crazy.

Alex Lindsay (01:25:40):
Okay. You're just like, you're just like a bunch of other car companies as far as you're, you're commoditized in my eyes, you're commoditized and you just took something away. That would be a key factor. So I just don't think GM has the juice to, to, to do that in the way that Tesla and Rivian do

Jason Snell (01:25:52):
And never underestimate the power of nerds. And people who want to build aftermarket stuff to figure it out. Because I'll tell you in our members, TWiT members Discord, while we were talking about it, somebody said, have you seen this thing? I think it's called Car Link Kit. And I had talked about the guy in Poland who had been building a raspberry pie to put CarPlay in a Tesla. Well, somebody has OEMed basically that, and the way it works is you tether it to your phone and then, and then you connect your Tesla to the Carlin Kits wifi that it's broadcasting and you load it in a browser. And at that point it's, it's CarPlay in the web browser live in a Tesla. And that'll work with Rivian undoubtedly too. And that'll work with other things. So it's like, you know, somebody's gonna find a way or you just get the best hack of all, which is the cup holder kit for your phone.

And then you use that instead. And that's, that's the thing about the car companies. And, and there was a story this week that actually talked to somebody at GM who basically said, yes, it is all about data and future revenue sources. We want to mine your data as a driver and we want to then charge you for things or sell your data and that. And we're gonna make a lot of money that way. And like on one level, like I get it, but I think the car is gonna be another one of these battles between, you know, do you want your privacy? Do you want the it the way you want it or do you wanna be a captive of the automaker? And I think fundamentally you can't put the genie back in the bottle. We love our smartphones and we're gonna use 'em. Yeah. And if a car maker wants to erect barriers for that, I think it's just gonna hurt the car maker in the end. Cuz the people are gonna find a way to get

Leo Laporte (01:27:37):
Around it. Well it's just dumb cuz the iPhone all and Android too, by the way, get updated all the time regularly in both hardware and software. You cars do not, and it's just dumb to take that out. By the way. It's never underestimate the power of geezer nerd who is the guy came up with that <laugh> Yeah.

Jason Snell (01:27:53):
Thumb subject Geer nerd. And I, I definitely wanna try this out. I have to find a Tesla that I have access to and, and give it a try. But it's a, it's such a cool idea, right? And it might be a little latency, but I love it. Like

Leo Laporte (01:28:04):
It's not a Yeah, I've played with it a little bit. It's not a does it have a

Jason Snell (01:28:07):
Browser? It's, no, I mean the cup holder is probably your go-to. And I actually wonder if this, in the long run, if this is an issue where CarPlay starts to go away, does Apple build a heads up phone mode that's basically CarPlay on your phone or iPad? Because the advantage of CarPlay is that it's big right? With big buttons and all of that. And, and, and I wonder

Leo Laporte (01:28:28):
Android does that. Android Auto has its own phone based ui

Jason Snell (01:28:33):
Oh, mode. Right? So they could, they could do that too. So like, but in the end it doesn't matter In the end, I think we, we love our phones. Our phones are where our digital life is. And our car, any car maker so diluted that they think that we're gonna cast away our phones because the car is where it's at. It's gonna be sorely disappointed.

Leo Laporte (01:28:50):
Chevy says, but what, wait, you're gonna get free access to Google Maps and Google Assistant for eight years.

Jason Snell (01:28:56):
No way. Google Maps. Thank you.

Leo Laporte (01:28:58):
<Laugh>. In eight years, it's free for eight years. What more can you want?

Alex Lindsay (01:29:03):
You're also going into a generation that just cares less and less about the car. You know? That's right.

Leo Laporte (01:29:06):
Just, that's right. It's just,

Alex Lindsay (01:29:08):
Just really

Leo Laporte (01:29:08):
They're, they care a hell of a lot more about their phone than their car <laugh>.

Alex Lindsay (01:29:11):
Oh yeah, sure. They're just not in a position of leverage and so it's just, it's a little too little. Too little too late. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:29:19):
Shady Mac app stores capitalize on chat. G P t Gold Rush <laugh>. There are, and I, I don't know why Apple's allowing this, but there are now dozens of kind of fake chat G p T apps using keywords like OpenAI and chat G P t to, to kind of get you to use 'em. Have maybe you recommended some while I was gone. Are have, are there any iOS apps you would recommend for using chat? G p t? May I just use Bing? Right? Use I, I know that hurts your heart, but I I, I still, I see I don't use any apps. I just use it through website. Use the website. Yeah.

Jason Snell (01:30:03):
Federico Vichi on Mac Stories did a fun he wrote a shortcut that uses chat gbt. Yeah. So you can use Siri to run a shortcut. Yeah. To do chat G B T and that's a fun thing. But no, this is Leo. I, I don't own, I don't know what you're talking about here. The reason that we have the Apple app of

Leo Laporte (01:30:19):
Course, of course is to keep crap like this out

Jason Snell (01:30:22):
Curated experience that's safe for everyone.

Leo Laporte (01:30:25):
Yes. Well now when they come out with chat G p t fart apps, then you'll have something <laugh> that I'm all in favor. That's right. Yes. Fart. G P t I think they call it <laugh> <laugh>. It's not something anybody should ever use. Good news stories about continue to come in about emergency sos I'm sure you saw the one where some Utah college kids asay at a very challenging hike that got them to a canyon. They could not get out of 500 foot deep. They didn't have a cell signal. They had iPhones and were able to use their iPhones to save themselves. They could only get connectivity to the satellite every 20 minutes. So, and this is kind of how it works. You send a, it's like batch mode, you send a little bit each time, but they were able to get rescue teams to where they were helicopter. They could only

Jason Snell (01:31:23):
See a fairly narrow bit of Scott. Yes. Right. Which, which why it was only every 20 minutes that they could get a signal on there. It's kind of amazing that they're down at the bottom of a hole essentially, and still could get enough sky to send their message. It's

Leo Laporte (01:31:35):
Amazing. And we knew this would happen, but that's, that's a really great story and I wanted to pass that along. I'm sure Apple will turn it into a commercial

Jason Snell (01:31:44):
And Yeah. Those poor kids over to ww, they're gonna have

Leo Laporte (01:31:46):
It go down into the pit again. That's the only bad thing to do. The ad. Ridley, I just watched gladiator Ridley Scott's movie from 2 23 years ago, cuz it's all about ancient Rome. And next we're gonna watch Napoleon. Apple has paid Ridley Scott to do a, a giant movie called Napoleon. And Sony has previewed it at Cinema Con.

Andy Ihnatko (01:32:14):
Yeah. a huge, huge battle scene. This, this is the movie with Joaquin Phoenix as Napoleon.

Leo Laporte (01:32:20):
Oh yeah. Cuz that's great. He was Empress, emperor, Commodus, and Gladiator. So it's fitting, you know, he can do all the, all the rulers eventually. Yeah. Old school, big screen. They are gonna release it of course, in theaters. Yeah.

Jason Snell (01:32:33):
This is one of those deals that Apple made where it's like, if Ridley Scott wants a theatrical release, if Martin Scorsese wants a theatrical release, you say Yes. And then it'll be on Apple TV not too long after that. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:32:46):
Exactly. And Sony who produced the movie, doesn't have a streaming, streaming service. I don't know how they could not have a streaming service. Everybody, Joe down on the corner has a streaming service turn

Jason Snell (01:32:56):
Turns. Well, they do. I think they do actually have some very niche streaming services. But the point is, Sony is what they like to call in the biz, A content arms dealer. They're happy to make, seriously. They do call 'em themselves that they're happy to make shows and movies for whoever wants to pay them. Want

Leo Laporte (01:33:12):
A bazooka for your streaming service. We

Jason Snell (01:33:15):
Make this, I got it here for you. Yeah, I got it here, right? Yeah. Like, you want, you want Seinfeld on Hulu, we can help you out with that. And yeah. And yeah, it's been very successful for Sony. In fact, all those other companies that have studios and streaming services are all sort of like, oh yeah, we should probably sell stuff too.

Leo Laporte (01:33:30):
Ridley Scott is 85 years old, continues to produce great movies, E Sing and Deadline says this movie, it would make Barry Linden, it would make Stanley Kubrick jealous. I, I, did you, have you seen an Andy, did you see the clip?

Andy Ihnatko (01:33:47):
I don't think they posted the clip yet. It's a huge, huge battle sequence and a Ridley Scott Battle sequence. He, he's one of those, one of those few directors that knows how to use digital VFX such that they're, they're like the anti marvel. It's not like you, you've, everybody who's in that scene is gonna feel like they are actually in that scene together, reacting to the exact same thing. And boy, you, you talk, you, you, you talk about a director that's capable of doing just scale and scope. I think the reason why they put they put Stanley Kubrick in that, in that quote, was that this was one of his decades long project.

Leo Laporte (01:34:21):
Oh, I didn't know that. If you,

Andy Ihnatko (01:34:23):
If you go, if you, if you go to there's a traveling museum exhibit for of Stanley Ku Kubrick, his, his movies, and a lot of his effects, excuse me, personal effects. And one of them is this massive library card catalog where he personally was putting in order every moment of Napoleon's life, <laugh> and cross indexing them. So as he's working on this script and developing this, if he wants to know, where was he? The morning of September 3rd, two weeks before this battle. And was Josephine anywhere near at the time he could answer that question? This was one of the one I wanna see this. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:35:03):
This is, I wanna find that traveling exhibit. I'm a big fan of Stanley Cooper.

Andy Ihnatko (01:35:07):
It's, it's really, it's a really cool exhibit. Yeah. I got to see it in, in la and it's like, oh, I wish I had budgeted more time for this. Oh, nice. Because Nice. He, he saved, he saved very few things. He was famous for throwing a lot of things away, but the things that they kept and put in this exhibit are choice. Napoleon's coming out in November. So it's like Oscar bait. It's

Leo Laporte (01:35:26):
A Thanksgiving release kids. Yeah. So, as you know, everybody has Thanksgiving dinner, they go shopping on Black Friday, and then they take in a movie. I think I know where you'll be November 22nd.

Andy Ihnatko (01:35:38):
I'm gonna get my booster. <Laugh> gonna get my booster. Your

Leo Laporte (01:35:41):
Booster. Go and go to a movie. You know, that's funny cuz I not have not been to a movie since 2019. A movie theater since 2019. And I feel no desire to, I'm very happy at home with my Q qd O Ledd screen. Looks great. Surround sound. I see. I'm happy. I almost,

Alex Lindsay (01:35:58):
Yeah, I mean,

Andy Ihnatko (01:35:59):
Almost saw Avatar that came really

Alex Lindsay (01:36:01):
Close. I saw Avatar. It was worth it. <Laugh> really?

Leo Laporte (01:36:03):
You didn't mind being scrapped in a movie theater for three and a half hours?

Alex Lindsay (01:36:07):
You know, I saw right at the very end of the run. So there wasn't that many people in the theater. And it was because for me, a theater, there's like eight seats I'm willing to sit in. And so I just look at, I go to a day that, that if those eight are full and it's sold out. Right. And so I, so I just kept on waiting until it was available and me and the family went. And it was, it was, did you,

Leo Laporte (01:36:27):
Was it IMAX or regular

Alex Lindsay (01:36:28):
Imax. So yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:36:29):
I would, that's the one, I think that's the last bastion of going to a

Alex Lindsay (01:36:33):
Movie theater. IMAX and Doax. Yeah. James Dolby. James Cameron Cinema and IMAX are the two. Yeah. Yeah. God,

Andy Ihnatko (01:36:39):
He ma he makes it worth it,

Alex Lindsay (01:36:40):
You know. And, and, but, but I haven't you know, I saw Black Panther as well. The problem is I went to see Dolby Dolby Cinema and in Dolby Cinema there are these little blue lights that go down the stairway and I can't not see them. Like, I don't know if they added them during Covid or, or something, but I can't not see them. And I can't go to Adobe Cinema anymore because I can't Yeah. I can see the blue of them on the screen. Wow. And I think it's, you know, and so I don't know if other, my, like my wife says I can't see 'em, I don't know even know what you're talking about. So it could just be me, <laugh>. But I can't not see them. Like, I can't, like, I just can't, like, I, I keep on trying to look forward. I spend so much time energy not looking at them that I, I don't see the movie anymore.

Leo Laporte (01:37:15):
Yeah, I understand that. Once I took Ayahuasca, I could not avoid seeing the machine elfs everywhere. So it happens. And once you're, once once scene, you can't unsee it. You know what what I'm saying? Exactly. Hi. Hey. She el. Alright. I think we have deeply mined all the possible subjects we possibly could. <Laugh>. I, I think there is nothing left in the, in the well. So let me take a break plug our Club and we will get your picks of the week in just a moment. However, however, I have a big thank you to our fabulous folks in Club TWiT because they really make a huge difference with their $7 a month. They are supporting what we do. It's getting harder and harder to be an independent podcast network, but I'm determined to, to, to make it work.

But clearly we need a, we need a club to have that happen. And you guys, you help us produce new programming, doesn't exist on the regular network. That's where this weekend space came from. Scott Wilkinson's, home Theater Geeks is back in the club. Thank you. Club members. In fact, Scott did a review of that Q D O led. You could see that on coming up Home Theater geeks. There's also Micah Sergeant's hands on McIntosh Paul Throt with Hands on Windows. We have the Untitled Linux show, Stacy's Book Club, all of that club only on the TWiT plus feed. There's also the Fabulous Discord, which is a, a great hang. Even when I was traveling in Europe, if I want, if I was Jones in a little bit, I, I would stop by there. And then I found out I don't need to stop by anymore because Club TWiTs Discord has an AI Leo who will answer any of your questions as I would.

He can even do it in French <laugh>, which I can't. So that's just one more fun thing. We have a lot of stuff. We have a let's play feature. We have our own Minecraft servers. We've played games online there. Trivia and Chess, fitness and Food and Linux and movies. Anything you would like to talk about that's in there. And it's, so, it's I think there's a future of social, frankly, is, is stuff like this where it's a community of people would like interests. So you get the discord, you, oh, I didn't even mention the whole reason we started the Club initially. Add free versions of all the shows. Yes, you get those as well. You get special shows, you don't get anywhere else. And you get the Twi plus feed, which also includes content that isn't a show. It's stuff before and after shows, things like that.

Seven bucks a month. There's a family plan. Just somebody just bought a family plan. Thank you. I I don't remember your name, but thank you. There are corporate memberships as well. And that money, all that, none of that money goes into my vacations or anything like that. All of that goes to fund, it goes to John Ashley, frankly, it goes to fund the and John Slen. It goes to fund the Johns. And and without the Johns, we wouldn't have TWiT. So thank you for keeping the lights on, keeping the, the content flowing and allowing us to launch new stuff. This week in Space was started in the club and is now, of course, a wonderful show that's available to y'all. If you're not a member, actually I know you're not a member cuz if you're a member, you wouldn't even hear this cuz we, you a free remember.

But if you're not a member, twit tv slash club, and you can become as the folks in the Club, say one of us, one of us We would love to have you in the club, Club TWiT. And I thank everybody even though you can't hear this, <laugh>, I thank everybody who has joined the Club <laugh>. I really appreciate, appreciate having you in there. It's so much fun. And I'll see you in there in a little bit. Alright, Andy. Alright. I know you guys have been doing picks of the week without me, but I'm ready for your pick of the week for this week.

Andy Ihnatko (01:41:09):
I thought that I would just continue the vibe and recommend day one. Good. We already, we already talked about how much we like it. I was gonna add a few notes that I started using it as kind of a health thing, really, because you know, sometimes my brain doesn't work so good. And sometimes I've got habits that I'm trying to do better on and habits I'm trying to build. And you know what, it's, it's enough to just simply determine that you're gonna do better tomorrow than you did today. But however, once you get yourself in the habit of just writing down, here's the exercise that I got or didn't get today. Here's what my mood was today. Do I, was I depressed? Was I really, really excited about stuff? Did I get lots of work done? Was I anxious about anything?

Did I do house cleaning? Just just stuff like that. And just a quick paragraph about here's what hap basically what happened today, once you, it's once you get in the habit of that and you're able to look back three, four months of these daily things, and you're trying to figure out, you're trying to correlate, why did I not get much done, like in the middle of March? And you find out that, oh, I was distracted by A, B and C. And sometimes it's just as simple as, wow, I actually am doing a lot of good stuff. I don't, I'm not doing perfectly. But the, I I'm on track. I'm doing good things. And it does help with my it does help with my mental health, does help with my physical health. Does help me make sure that I keep cleaning the house when I, when I should.

And just as we said during the during the show itself, the ability to simply blog to myself, just things that I'm observing and photos that are just for me and just for, just for Future Me, like a year from now, five years from now, that is one of the best gifts I think that you can give yourself. Has a a, an immense number of really, really great features we haven't touched on. Obviously it will sync to the cloud and sync across all devices. So you, you got a Mac app, you got an iOS app, an iPad app even an Android app. And for 35 bucks a year, you can sync securely across every single device. You can also create templates and have multiple journals. So for instance, I have a Daily Journal template that is just basically a status for literally a bureaucratic like J j J L 1 41 form that I fill out at the end of every day just to simply get the basics down, even though I don't want to be lyrical about Dear Diary. Oh, what a, what a fan dango of expressions happen today as foot being, well, it's again, what did you eat today? Did you, did you go for a walk? Did you go for a bike ride? And just when you make it as simple as possible through these templates you really do get into these habits. It really does help out. And it's the, the company that makes day one has been around for a long, long time. They were bought out by Automatic a few years.

Leo Laporte (01:43:58):
Oh, that's right. I forgot. That's right. The Matt Mullenweg's company. The WordPress folks. Yeah, the company.

Andy Ihnatko (01:44:04):
The company has WordPress, so they're not going away anytime soon. Also, they know how to create a back, a secure <laugh> and, and, and sturdy backend for cloud syncing and for these kind of transactions. So, you know that this is a really, really well made sturdy, sturdy app. Can't recommend it highly enough. It is, it is. You can download the free version that just has some of this top features cut off. So if you wanna spend a month or two just seeing what daily journaling does for you, or again, daily notes to yourself, daily blog and yourself can do, if you get into that habit, I think that you'll find that that's a very cheap 35 bucks a year.

Leo Laporte (01:44:40):
I was, I'm, it was perfect for a travel diary because it just made it super easy just every night just to make a note of, you know, some of the things we saw. So, lots of fun. And by the way, you can import your Instagram into a journal. So if you, if you missed a few years <laugh>, but you were Instagramming, you can, you can bring it in there and and import it all in. So, and,

Andy Ihnatko (01:45:02):
And you can export it to just about anything. So even, even if even you wanna use this as like your daily for, for national novel writing month, this is what you write in every single day. Do that too. It's, it is very, very flexible. You can do whatever you want with it. Yeah, that's

Leo Laporte (01:45:14):
Great. I agree. Jason Snell pick for us.

Jason Snell (01:45:19):
Yeah, this is a, a relatively new app and it's using safari extensions to do something that you kind of couldn't do on iOS before. It's called surfed. It's free within NF purchase. You know, you can do a lifetime or a subscription. And what it is is it's a brows, it's a bookmarking and browser history manager. It basically runs as a Safari extension on your iOS device and logs every page you visit with some metadata. You could even do some AI auto tagging and stuff. But basically it's gonna give you a browser history that's searchable, that isn't gonna get deleted, isn't gonna roll off. And then you can use tags to organize things. You can have automations that kick off based on what sites you visit. There's all sorts of other stuff. It does. I just love the fact that this is, like, the Safari extensions is just this little crack that you can stick a wedge into <laugh> and use a tool to do something that is perfectly normal to do on a computer, but not so easy to do on an iOS device.

And so they, they use the, it's very clever. They use Safari extensions. The extension knows where you're going, and then it logs that to its app. And then you can use the app to browse through your browser history and organize it and pull things out and say, well, you know, what was I looking at in a much more organized way than just the random safari history that, you know, goes for a while and then vanishes. And I always search my Safari history on iOS and I can't find anything. I don't know what is going on with the search there. So, so if you're somebody who really has this, like, I'm very frustrated. I, and the moment I saw surfed, I was like, oh my God, install that right now because I have great value in finding that thing that I was looking at two weeks ago and being able to retrieve it. And now I know that surf is cataloging all that stuff and I can find it fairly easily when I need it. So yeah, just a fun little utility. It's for iOS and Mac and it'll sync and, you know, do all of those nice things. But it's, it's really unique and clever for iOS.

Leo Laporte (01:47:21):
You're a Python expert. I might have to tap you <laugh> because I just bought a ein cat for my raspberry pies <laugh> seven color ein cat, the inky impression. Yep. And I've mounted it, my raspberry pie on it. I've been able to run their demo programs, but it's all in Python, so and I wanted, I was thinking we could put it in the studio and have, have it, I don't know, show the weather or show the time or whatever. Totally.

Jason Snell (01:47:49):
Yeah. Yeah. There's some great Python projects that I've kind of adapted. I'm not an expert. I am a Python, you know, hacker of a low degree, but yeah, I've I've got an knee ink display in my kitchen that is a calendar.

Leo Laporte (01:48:01):
Yeah. I thought it'd be fun. Nothing.

Jason Snell (01:48:03):
It is a lot fun to play with. And it's

Leo Laporte (01:48:05):
Not complicated Python. I mean, they have basically, they have a library that you import and then it's it's pretty straightforward.

Jason Snell (01:48:10):
Yeah. You ju you basically pass it. Ultimately what you're doing is you're passing an image file and saying, draw this on Exactly. Screen. And then all the rest of the Python is getting data sources and building an image that it

Leo Laporte (01:48:21):
Yeah. And I guess actually I could do that in a different language and then glue it to the Python interface. You could,

Jason Snell (01:48:27):
You could in fact, yeah. Have it have it Dr. Load that image from some other source and display it. That's right.

Leo Laporte (01:48:33):
That's what I'll

Jason Snell (01:48:34):
Do. It can, that's

Leo Laporte (01:48:35):
I'll do smarter,

Jason Snell (01:48:36):
Smarter as dumb as you want it to be. Yeah, because

Leo Laporte (01:48:38):
It, it comes with a very simple this is the Python program that displays an image. It's a very, it's really simple. All I, so then I can have some other program on every second r write a new image and then have the have the display sucker as an

Jason Snell (01:48:54):
E e Ink. It's gonna take a long time to refresh a Yeah. The color. So you probably wanna do it once an hour or something like that. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:49:01):
Could totally. Which makes it as useless as a clock, but,

Jason Snell (01:49:03):

Leo Laporte (01:49:04):

Jason Snell (01:49:05):
Yeah. I wouldn't, I wouldn't use it as a clock. I wouldn't do that. But as a, you know, I have mine as like, it's got the today's weather forecast and tomorrow's weather forecast Yeah. And all the events for the next week and stuff like that. And yeah. And there's a dad. There's a dad jokes api. Oh, that'd be fun on api. So you can load a dad joke. Some

Leo Laporte (01:49:24):
Dad jokes

Jason Snell (01:49:24):
Late. Today's dad joke. Yeah. Great.

Leo Laporte (01:49:27):
We're gonna do this on Ask the Tech guy. I, I I'll probably do it as a several week project, but if you wanna know more tune in with Micah and Leo as we do Ask the tech guys. Sundays from two to five Eastern on TWiT right before this week in tech. It's not expensive. 70 bucks, seven color. 7.3 inch, 800 by four 80, I think. Ink display. Yeah. I'll have to figure out what the refresh rate is. It was, it was, seemed like it was fairly fast. Maybe I could just change it every minute. That would be good enough. Not.

Jason Snell (01:50:01):
And some of those color ink displays takes a minute's draw full color

Leo Laporte (01:50:04):
<Laugh>. Really? Oh yeah. I'll have to play with it a little bit. Okay, good. Good to know. Mr. Alex Lindsay, it's your pick of the week.

Alex Lindsay (01:50:14):
Yeah, so, so when we were in Vegas covering N na B, we had a little bit of a disaster. Oh. You know, that was the bandwidth available at the Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:50:21):
I know all about that. <Laugh>. I kinda warned you there.

Alex Lindsay (01:50:25):
So, well we were in the press room and we were trying to upload things. Oh yeah. And it was just, it was just ugly, you know, it was like, we have one megasecond, you know, and, or, or sometimes less. Yeah. And so one of the, one of the folks in office hours has a company that actually solves this problem. And they brought the router in and, and handed it to us and said, try this. And this is called a company called Disaster Group. Now this is created by a guy named Keenan Campbell. And, and disaster Group. He comes from like basically FEMA style re responses where they need to pay attention to things. And he got into our, into office hours cuz he was like driving around during snowstorms streaming from his truck talking about stuff.

Leo Laporte (01:51:03):
This is what the live view did. In fact, this is what Colleen built for us when we were at CES trying to do this show. She had a b it was in a plexiglass case. She was so cute. She she was amazing what she made. And it bonded. It bonded a bunch of different, but I mean, that was a hard thing to do. Now you just get this router.

Alex Lindsay (01:51:23):
Well, and, and the thing is, is this has three modems in it. It automatically connects don't much easier. It bonds 'em for you. Yeah. You don't have a server on the other side. This isn't just for video, this is just bandwidth. Right. You just, you just, you know, you now just are able to plug it in. So how much

Leo Laporte (01:51:35):
Were you able to get?

Alex Lindsay (01:51:37):
We were getting about I think it was like 20 up and, you know, it was, but it was consistent still in a bad area, but

Leo Laporte (01:51:43):
It was Oh yeah. Consistent.

Alex Lindsay (01:51:44):
It was like 20 up and down. Yeah. Which was a solid 20 times what we were getting. Otherwise,

Leo Laporte (01:51:49):
Obviously you have to have an account with a cellular carriers. Do you have to provide a sim?

Alex Lindsay (01:51:53):
That's, that's, that's what this is. This has the sims built in. So this got three sims built into it. So we've, and I've used other ones that are pep wave and you know, that we, but then we have to get the sims, I have to organize the sims, I have to negotiate all those, all those things. And that's one of the reasons we use live use for videos. Cuz I don't have to think about that. I don't have to think about where, where the Sims are going or Right. You know, just plug it in and it works. And so, which but, so this has at and t, Verizon and, and T-Mobile installed. It's got three, three modems installed. It. It is, it's about 1200 bucks. $1,300. But you get two gigs, a a a month for free throughout the, the year to have this. And this is a piece of hardware. It's not a piece of software. And it, but the main thing is that it solved that, that our pep waves didn't solve was that I don't have to deal with, I don't have to negotiate, I don't have to know anything. I literally plug, this is a tiny little box. It's like half you, I plug this thing in, I plug internet into it and we're done. <Laugh> you idea.

Yeah. Wherever I am, wherever there's cell coverage, I can just kind of turn this thing on and it's not me. Again, negotiating for something it's bonded cellular. In some places it was much faster than the 20 that we were getting at the com conference center. So it just depends on what, what's what's available. But being able to have it all pre-configured being able to manage it with a web portal, being able to do all those things, you know, are, and, and have it just be, you just turn, I, all I did is just turn it on and plug it in and, and it was, it was, we were off to the races. And so I think for some people out there, you're gonna, you're gonna see that and go, oh, that would be useful. <Laugh>. You know, there's a lot of people that won't, won't go and go.

I don't know why I would use that, but there's, there's a handful of folks like me. Yeah. That you need those things. And this combined, you can also have ethernet as one of the sources. And so this combined with like a, you know, you can have this with a with a starlink. So you'd have cellular and starlink all bonded together as well. Ooh. So, so those things neat that you can Yeah. So you, you just have, you know, when you're trying to connect somewhere in the middle of nowhere it's kind of a useful thing. And again, it's not that it's the only solution, but it's the easiest solution and it's the least expensive version of it. So anyway, I would, I would highly recommend it. And again, it's b built by somebody who has, who's had to do this a lot. And it was a, it was really useful. And, and I was and I think that I was like, oh, this is, and first I thought, well, there's a lot of things to do it, but when I started researching all the things it did, I was like, oh, I don't know if there's anything else that does that

Leo Laporte (01:54:06):
<Laugh> Plus you get a really cool bright red box that you could put in your rack that says Disaster. Disaster. It just gives you a certain Exactly. A certain GenZe quo disaster group do US disaster recovery router or N A b bandwidth in recovery

Alex Lindsay (01:54:26):
Room. Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:54:27):
Yeah. Oh, it's, it's always a nightmare in Vegas.

Alex Lindsay (01:54:30):
We, you know, it's, it's one of those things that I, I think that it's gonna be interesting to see what happens with all these conferences. You know, conferences are desperately trying to hang on to everybody. You know, like, like the, you know, and, and N b I think is doing better than most. They had about 65,000, but that's about half of what they had pre covid. Wow. And but n b is still a big, a big conference. But like, my, my wife signed up for a conference and she doesn't want to go now. You know, she, she, she was gonna go there and then she realized there was a virtual one. She goes, can I move from the physical to the virtual? And they were like, no, you can't <laugh>. Like you can't do it. You lose your money. Cuz they definitely need, need people to show up in, in person.

And so it'll be interesting to see how this bandwidth stuff starts to change because these conferences have to figure out how to do things more digitally because, you know, it's never, it's never going back, you know, like to where it was before. And the key is finding the new new and I don't think the na b bandwidth for the press is not the new noon yet. Yeah. But what I will say is that N na B definitely supported, they, they definitely understand that there's something happening there. And they supported office hours. I think we had like 15 people on the ground and then another 30 offsite and we were passing files around. And so,

Leo Laporte (01:55:35):
So another million dollar idea that Colleen Kelly just let fly by the wayside <laugh>. She does. Okay. I

Alex Lindsay (01:55:41):
Think she does. She's all right. She has a, she has a lot of, she has a lot of lot of ideas.

Leo Laporte (01:55:47):
The live view over there, which eventually replaced the box that she made was at the time a backpack. That's what I wore when I crowds surfed.

Alex Lindsay (01:55:54):
I I have one, I have one, I have one in the other room.

Leo Laporte (01:55:57):
They're a little smaller now. I'm looking at the live view. They so

Alex Lindsay (01:55:59):
Small. The live view 800 i i the live 800. Cuz you had the 400 and then I rented two six hundreds. So that, so we did with that LiveU 800 we did a HDR 5.1 stream from the floor wandering around. Wow. So like, so we were, you know, five Wow. And people said you really need to do 5.1. It turns out you just feel like you're there. Oh, bet You're watching on like you hear every, all the cacophony and there's a loud, there's a loud booth on the right and super everything else. And so, so, but, and we're gonna do we're gonna try, we're going to seg gear. We're gonna try to do 4k <laugh>, HBR 5.1 <laugh>. Isn't that, you know, cuz why not? Cause we can't. Cause we can. But yeah. Well, you know, you know,

Leo Laporte (01:56:42):
I'm still the only guy who's crowd surfed with one of those on though.

Alex Lindsay (01:56:45):
Huh? Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true. <Laugh>. Yeah. You know, Colleen, Colleen had a party and it was like, everybody who's Enn encoding showed up at this party in, in Vegas. And just what happens in Vegas was stay in Vegas. But, but I will say that it was

Leo Laporte (01:56:57):
A good party, a bomb. All you have to say,

Alex Lindsay (01:56:58):
It was good if a bomb, if a bomb had hit that, hit that building during N A b Oh wow. You wouldn't have any more videos? <Laugh>. Oh wow. <Laugh>. Okay. Well, like who was like the people who were there were, it was a lot of people who were making a lot of decisions.

Leo Laporte (01:57:10):
This is great. Our first studio engineer really built a lot of the technologies that we still use in some form or fashion today. Thank you gentlemen for my first Mac Break Weekly back. It's been fun. You'll find Andy and Ako at Wg Theia Boston. We're where, where and when This week?

Andy Ihnatko (01:57:35):
I'm on Thursday at 1230. Not in the bpl. You can go to the Boston Public Library. It's a lovely place, but I won't be there. And neither way the show go to db gbh to stream it live or later.

Leo Laporte (01:57:48):
And of course Right.

Andy Ihnatko (01:57:52):
Still working on it. <Laugh>, I'm using Can I, can I tell you that? Can I tell you that chat? G p t has been really, really helpful cuz every single thing I've shouted at three 30 in the morning while trying to get like templates done has been

All I want is a header on the top of a block page that's centered a new white space on top of it. New white space to the left and the right of it. So here's the code. Well, where do I put it? Here's where you

Put it.

Wow. Okay. Thank you <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:58:20):

Andy Ihnatko (01:58:22):
Wow. That's why I'm shouting. You're being very okay right now. That's good.

Leo Laporte (01:58:26):
Thank you. Six is the place where you find where Mr. Jason Nell hangs his hat, if you wanna see all the many things he does. And there really are quite a few. Go to six colors dot com slash Jason. He's the one, he's the only. And

Jason Snell (01:58:43):
There's lots of podcasts, lots of writing, lots of things, all

Leo Laporte (01:58:46):
Of them well worth subscribing to. Anything you wanna, in particular you would like to plug this week?

Jason Snell (01:58:52):
I think fans of this show might love to listen to Upgrade where Mike Curley and I also talk about Apple News every week. But on Monday instead of Tuesday. So it's totally different <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:59:04):
So it scoops us basically.

Jason Snell (01:59:07):
Yeah. Except for all the things that happen Monday afternoon. Oh, that's true.

Leo Laporte (01:59:10):
So for Monday afternoon stories tune in, Mac Break Weekly for all the rest, it's upgraded Relay. I, it

Jason Snell (01:59:16):
It is really a different vibe. I, I gotta say not just because that is, that is sort of him and me going back and forth and here we've got the big panel, but like, I don't know. There's something about it. They are very different shows with some stories in common, but you know, not a lot. And

Leo Laporte (01:59:30):
Sometimes yours are even as long as ours, but not usually.

Jason Snell (01:59:33):

Leo Laporte (01:59:35):
<Laugh> thank you Jason. Alex Lindsay, office is his is his fun time. Oh nine Oh Media is how to hire him. What are you talking about this weekend? Office hours

Alex Lindsay (01:59:49):
This week is like we, we slowed down and what we do is we have these one week every three or four months that we go, okay, what do we wanna talk about in our second hours for the next three or four months? And so it's really brainstorming. So we just brainstorm all week.

Leo Laporte (02:00:00):
It's brainstorming week on us.

Alex Lindsay (02:00:02):
Yeah, exactly. But but last week was all N A b. Yeah, so we there was a lot of Na B stuff and then on on Gray Matter show we have an interview with Justine I just, oh

Alex Lindsay (02:00:13):
How wonderful that'll be dropping tomorrow. And so we had a, I mean it was a great Michael Krasney, you know, he's got some skill when it comes to interviewing <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:00:22):
I wanna hear that. I, Christine yeah, I'd like to know more about Justine. So that's great. That's Gray Matter show Michael Krasney. Oh, you had Walter Merge last week. Walter

Alex Lindsay (02:00:32):
Worked. Walter Mech dropped last week and it was it's probably the best interview of Walter Merch I've ever heard. Like it was, it was a it was an incredible

Leo Laporte (02:00:41):
Legendary editor and sound designer. He did. But it was all over the place. It was all

Alex Lindsay (02:00:45):
Of his, oh God. Every, everything from like philosophical things that he has about movie, movie making to, what is he using now? It turns out he's experimenting with Resolve, but he's using Premier, but he used to use Final

Leo Laporte (02:00:55):
<Laugh>. Well it's funny cuz Apple basically got him to use Final Cut on Cold Mountain and, and developed final cut with his feedback. Like, this thing sucks. This is terrible. So wow. That's a big deal.

Alex Lindsay (02:01:08):
He is fascinating. That's a fascinating guy. And so you know, so a really good interview from last week and then we've got Justine this week, so we're kind of bouncing around and lots of, and the interviews just keep getting better. So,

Leo Laporte (02:01:19):
Oh, I'm looking at all the great people you have on. I mean, this is really an amazing roster.

Alex Lindsay (02:01:24):
Yeah, it's a, you know, Michael Krasney has got a pretty deep Rolodex

Leo Laporte (02:01:29):
<Laugh>. Yeah, no kidding. His ability. No kidding.

Alex Lindsay (02:01:32):
So yeah. Yeah. So a lot of, lot of really, really

Leo Laporte (02:01:35):
Bugs. Well, that's what you wanna watch or listen to. It's audio only.

Alex Lindsay (02:01:40):

Leo Laporte (02:01:40):
Yeah. Which is smart. Very smart. I will, I'm sorry,

Alex Lindsay (02:01:44):
You video

Leo Laporte (02:01:45):
<Laugh>. Yeah, thanks a lot. Alex <laugh>.

And then you go Yeah,

Alex Lindsay (02:01:48):
You, we do video, so if you watch it live, if you're part of the group and you watch it live Oh, you can

Leo Laporte (02:01:53):
Do that.

Alex Lindsay (02:01:53):
We do stream it video, post it later, yet we're still kind of experimenting with the product good enough. And so we're using good enough zoom ISO and doing a bunch of other things Oh, nice. And playing with it. So yeah, so we're not, we're not publishing the videos yet, but we're doing just, just audio right

Leo Laporte (02:02:06):
Now. Oh. I'm gonna listen to the next two for sure. Great matter. Show Office Hours, doc Global. Thanks to all of you for being here. We do Mac Break Weekly on Tuesdays 11:00 AM Pacific, 2:00 PM Eastern Time. That's 1800 utc. If you wanna watch us live, it's Live twit do tv. If you're watching live chat, live in our irc irc Do run by our great community. Of course there's our official Discord, which is part of the Club TWIT TV slash club twit. You can get the show on demand in a variety of ways. Certainly the website's one place to go twit tv slash mb w the website will also lead you to links to your favorite clients podcast clients. So you can subscribe and there's also a YouTube channel you can go to from there. And if you want, you know, to share the video, that's probably the easiest way to do this is get a clip from YouTube, all of that Twitter tv slash m biw. Thanks for joining us. It's great to be back. I will see you next week. Don't forget June 5th. We're very excited. We'll do our live coverage at ww d c, but now my friends, you gotta get back to work cuz break time is over. We'll see you next night.

Jason Howell (02:03:23):
It's midweek and you really wanna know even more about the world of technology.

Mikah Sargent (02:03:27):
So you should check out Tech News Weekly. The show where we talk to and about the people making and breaking the tech news.

Jason Howell (02:03:32):
It's the biggest news. We talk with the people writing the stories that you're probably reading. We also talk between ourselves about the stories that are getting us even more excited about tech News this week.

Mikah Sargent (02:03:42):
So if you are excited, well then join us. Head to to subscribe.


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