MacBreak Weekly 861 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.
Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for Mack Break Weekly. Alex is out, but Zack Hall from nine to five. Mack joins Jason Snell, Andy Ihnatko, and me to talk about Apple's classical music app. Was Tim Cook forced to release the mixed reality headset and why so many Apple executives are leaving. It's all coming up. Next on Mack Break Weekly
V.O. (00:00:22):
Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is TWiT
Leo Laporte (00:00:32):
This is Mac Break Weekly episode 861, recorded Tuesday, March 14th, 2023. The number before two. This episode of Mac Break Weekly is brought to you by Express vpn. Using the internet without express VPN is like taking a call on a train or a bus on speaker for everyone to hear. Secure your online data today by visiting express break and get an extra three months free on a one year package and buy ZipRecruiter. One of the biggest 2023 hiring challenges is standing out to top talent, break through the clutter and attract the most qualified candidates for your team with ZipRecruiter matching technology. Try it free at Break and buy Zoc when you're not feeling your best and just trying to hold it together, finding great care shouldn't take up all your energy. Go to break and download the for free. Then find and book a top rated doctor today. Many available within 24 hours. It's time for Mac Break Weekly, the show we cover. The latest Apple News. Jason Snell is here. He hello, has written a lovely piece in Mac World. We'll talk about about the M three processor. He is also on the Mastodon. I'm happy to see at Snell.
Jason Snell (00:02:00):
Yes, indeed. The Mastodon. I I have my own air. An instance, a rigid airship that contains multitudes. Yes.
Leo Laporte (00:02:07):
It's really a little bit of a what do they call that? Is it a humble brag to have your own instance? Like Oh yeah. I'm, I'm on my own instance.
Jason Snell (00:02:17):
Yeah. I I have too Cool for school. Right? Too cool For I got my own. Yeah, you got the right. I decided I was gonna be there for a while and I had actually set that up back in 2018 and then t taken it down. But it in Master in Averse, it just sort of like stayed as if it existed. It was sort of a, a Ghost Zeppelin. Yeah. so I just, I just brought it back right. And figured I might as well park all of my all of my professional stuff
Leo Laporte (00:02:40):
There. We launched TWI Social in 2019. It was me and another guy <laugh>. Yep. For three years. It was really, it was, it was cool. And it was like five euros a month to Masto host who host it. And I, in fact, it was so little that I forgot I was paying for it. I thought it was free. And then <laugh> cuz it was coming PayPal and I never even noticed. And then all of a sudden November, 2022 happened and wow. It got quite quick. There's more people now. Now there's more people. Andy Ihnatko is also with us. G B H In Bostons
Andy Ihnatko (00:03:15):
Yeah. I'm I I'm on America on Lions, ma on census. Is that a bad <laugh>?
Jason Snell (00:03:20):
Think it's great.
Leo Laporte (00:03:21):
There's actually some,
Andy Ihnatko (00:03:22):
It's cost me $30 a month. There's
Leo Laporte (00:03:23):
Some real, it's retro now there's some real concern in the metaverse as we call it, because Facebook is announced that it's going to, in some way, we are not sure how ins integrate. And there are people in Mastodon who immediately said, every, every administrator should block all Facebook domains <laugh> if they decide to join Block 'em,
Andy Ihnatko (00:03:42):
Because that's what the open free internet is all about. Exactly.
Leo Laporte (00:03:45):
Exactly. Hey Mr. Alex Lindsay has, is on assignment, you know, which means he's probably at the White House or something, but knowing Alex, but hey, we're glad to say Zack Hall is here from the Estimatable nine to five Mac and the Nine to five Mac Happy Hour podcast. And I'm glad you hear Zach because you're a musician. Clearly you play the classical guitar,
Zac Hall (00:04:09):
Play the classic guitar. Yeah. have a lot of metadata. Yeah. Involved with that.
Andy Ihnatko (00:04:14):
Leo Laporte (00:04:15):
Opus 43 and G Minor, Zac Hall, because we were just talking about it last week. I was bitching and moaning that Apple
Jason Snell (00:04:26):
Last week, Leo, every week, every week, every week since they killed Prime Phonic. You been there. We were the
Leo Laporte (00:04:33):
Two prime phonic users and we were both,
Jason Snell (00:04:35):
Is Apple Music classical up to be, to be fair, Leo Laport,
Andy Ihnatko (00:04:39):
To be fair, Jason, like a Apple was the parents who said that, well, we're not gonna open our Christmas presents on, on December 24th. We're gonna wait till December 25th. And then we couldn't open them in January, then we couldn't open them in February. They were promising us something special and not giving it to us.
Leo Laporte (00:04:55):
We, apple has announced now, right after a show last week, they are gonna finally launch Apple Music, classical, a standalone app available March 28th. Although now what I do every day is I wake up and I open the app to see <laugh> to see if I have it. Cuz it could come earlier. I mean, you're able to download it as like a pre thing from the app store. But nothing has happened yet. 5 million unique tracks, thousands of exclusive albums, ma and and everybody, everybody asks, well, why do you know? You already have all these pieces in Apple Music, don't you? And I don't know, actually doesn't sounds like maybe there'll be more stuff than as in Apple Music. But the real issue is, as you said, Zack metadata. Because, and, and the, and you said, I think last week, Andy, the best thing is gonna be that you could say, I want to hear box B minor mass. And then you can see 20 different versions of it by different orchestras. Yeah. And, and because,
Andy Ihnatko (00:05:57):
Cause sometimes with, with classical, sometimes it's, I just want, I I just wanna hear the B minor mask, or I want to, why do you wanna hear this recording? Is it because it's a Bach recording? Is it because it's this orchestra? Is it because it's this conductor? Is this, because it's this soloist? And it becomes really, really hard to really drill down on what you like or even or for the algorithm to figure out? What is it that you like about this? I'm, I'm still, I'm still in the, the Spotify hole where the fact that I listen to so much classical and opera, it keeps giving me like, Hey, suggested albums. Here's a compilation of sweet sounds of the sixties.
Leo Laporte (00:06:30):
I get a lot of that <laugh>
Andy Ihnatko (00:06:31):
Music music to play paddle ball by
Leo Laporte (00:06:34):
Like, oh, they, they decided you're my age. Andy <laugh> <laugh>. This is now unfortunately, apple in the App Store preview. And you can see you could pre-order it doesn't have an iPad screenshot as far as I can. No, that worries. No, that worries a little.
Jason Snell (00:06:54):
It seems like it's coming out for iPhone. It's not on the Mac. And I can see it on my iPad too. So I I suspect it'll run, but I think it's gonna run in like the little iPhone window thing. Oh, instead of full Apple,
Leo Laporte (00:07:06):
This B apple, you, you had 18 months. You're a almost a 3 trillion company. You have billions in the bank and, and you can't get an iPad version of this.
Andy Ihnatko (00:07:18):
Oh, also, also remember that when they bought the, when, when they bought the company to Great get classical that company had an, an Android app, but they're saying, oh, we're gonna be supporting Android real soon.
Leo Laporte (00:07:29):
Someday. Yeah.
Jason Snell (00:07:30):
Yeah. Let's, I mean, they could, they could also have not like they, it is, at least they said they will support it. And quite frankly, they haven't said that about the iPad of the Mac. So true. I would take it as a win, Andy. It's, it's better than radio silence.
Leo Laporte (00:07:42):
I'm, I'm not, I'm not complaining. No, I'm not complaining. Yeah. And one of the things that I liked about Prime Phonics, they had some really excellent believe it not podcasts. They had excellent shows. Yeah. And I don't see those in this, but this is just screenshots that Apples put up. So who knows what Apple Yeah. We'll, we'll end up doing.
Andy Ihnatko (00:08:00):
Yeah, I mean, 1, 1, 1 of the greatest, one of the great things about Apple Music when they launched was that they did have real human beings like curating and making recommendations and having their own shows. Just like the, one of the great things about the App Store is that they have editors who are not just going by metrics. They're simply saying, Hey, here are really, here are eight really great apps that take p take advantage of Apple Pencil. I think a lot of us have worked with people who are now working at Apple <laugh> and doing those editor things, whereas they used to do them at at, on websites. So I'm hope, I'm just hoping that they put the same amount of energy into this as they would any project that they actually take seriously. Yeah. I hope it's not something where we've done it. We, we acquired it because we needed every advantage we could possibly get against Spotify, but oh gosh, we had to take some people off this project because of other priorities at the company that would kind of stink if it kind of died on the Vine. Even the desktop version of Apple Music is, I mean, it's a, it's a great swift project if you're on at summer school learning how to program and program for Mac, but it's not really a great
Leo Laporte (00:09:03):
App. Yeah. Well, I look, anyway, we'll, we'll find out maybe before March 28th, but that's the official release date. And, and Zach, you didn't weigh in on this in any form or fashion? 
Zac Hall (00:09:15):
I, I have a few things in mind. Yes. Okay. So one no iPad app. You can do the iPhone app on the iPad. Yeah. It's, it's nicer than ever with, with, with Stage manager, the incredible multitasking feature. You get your background, you can, you can run it next to other apps even though it's an iPhone app. So you could have like classical next to Instagram, next to, you know, you name it and it'll all work together. So maybe they're just giving up on iPad apps and this is the future. That would be bad. The other thing is
Leo Laporte (00:09:43):
Somehow I doubt that, but Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Zac Hall (00:09:47):
<Laugh> the, a few other things. I know that a lot of the employees that were at MPH phonic are on the music team or on the data Apple.
Leo Laporte (00:09:54):
That's actually good insight. So they kept the team and they're still there. That's a good sign, I
Zac Hall (00:10:00):
Think. Yeah. Yeah. I would say like 75 or 80% of the people that were there are, are still there. I did a LinkedIn exploration one time and, and, and saw that. And then last thing is with Prime Phonic, they would pay, or the song based on minute Played instead of Stream played, because you can have a three minute pop song, right. And you pay for the play, but you have a 30 minute or three hour classical performance as you pay for the minute. That was a big part of why Prime Phonic existed in the first place. Ah-Huh. Was to make that sustainable, I guess would be, with it being Apple. They don't have that problem. But I am curious how that, if, if that changed or not with Apple, because you'd imagine even though Apple can support the classical service on its own, subsidize it with Apple Music and the iPhone, then you'd still want the artist behind the the
Leo Laporte (00:10:51):
Performance tv. Well, I'll be watching her B Vaughn car'sTwitter account to see if he says anything <laugh> about this.
Andy Ihnatko (00:10:59):
See if, see if he has a Jewel jewelry upgrade. It's starting to wear a crown or crown or something. <Laugh>. I mean, that, that, that's an, that's an excellent point because one of the things I do like about Apple, but they pay, they pay creators a lot more than like, they YouTube plays create, pays creators garbage. Right. Amazon too, but it's nice to, it's nice to know that of the <laugh> that not that, not that, not that not that streaming is helping to make up for the loss of album sales, but but you, you'd like to think that they're being reco compensated as much as
Leo Laporte (00:11:28):
Possible. Yeah. Ah, I didn't, there's more to this story than meets the eye. Thank you Zach, for filling us in on that. I'm glad you're hearing.
Jason Snell (00:11:36):
Yeah. And, and for those who are not like super into classical music Jesse Char, who has worked at Apple and is a, has a a, a cellist and had a design company like she did a great Twitter thread that is explains it short detail of, you know, the challenges compared to the music app we just designed for pop music. So, you know, her example is like, you open the Nutcracker and like literally you can't tell what the tracks are cuz the track names are so long. Yeah. You can only see the beginning of it and you can't really see like there's like, when it was composed and there's also when it was recorded and like the fundamental thing, like as Zach said, metadata, like, it, it, it's ironically it's like the app store, right? The app store is a, a, a pop music service cuz they just took it from iTunes. And, and when you apply a pop music sensibility to other data sets, it doesn't always map very well. And classical is just a great example where that interface doesn't work for classical music. And so that's the reason there's a separate app. And that's the reason why people like Leo and Andy and Zach are excited about this service because, I mean, I don't know. I I know like like I know how cranky Beethoven was and you know, I know, I know a little bit. I see. I've seen Amadeus. Anyway.
Zac Hall (00:12:50):
He loved and lost Jason already.
Jason Snell (00:12:51):
Yeah, he did. He was, he was just a very early grumpy guy. And I, I recalled yesterday that when I was taking piano lessons as a kid, I would get little plastic busts of, of classical composers as rewards
Leo Laporte (00:13:04):
For aw
Jason Snell (00:13:05):
<Laugh>. So it's like, oh, you guys show Pan this time. I'm like, oh, that's so great. So they're like Funko pops except, you know, classical music. That's hysterical. So anyway lots of reasons why this makes sense and it being its own thing. And that's why people like Leo and, and, and Andy and Zach are
Leo Laporte (00:13:20):
Excited about it. Yeah. There's a real, there's a reason oh, sorry. Cliff flip.
Jason Snell (00:13:24):
Sorry. Why so angry Ethen? Why,
Leo Laporte (00:13:26):
Why so angry? Well there, they you know, well you made a good point. Like, I was getting Rock me Amad every time I ask for Mozart, that's not what you want. Right. <laugh>.
Jason Snell (00:13:36):
That's what I want. <Laugh> Falco might what you want Falco is, is a, that's not a treasure Austria's No Austria's treasure. You know, that was the first non-English song to hit. Number one in the US was rock Meez was Rock Meade before La Baba and Despacito there came Rock Meade. Yes. It
Leo Laporte (00:13:52):
Was it was a a a, a wall break, A ceilings, a
Jason Snell (00:13:58):
Falco. Oh yeah. Fal
Leo Laporte (00:13:59):
Was that old Falco fella. Jesse Falco said she hates the icon, so maybe they'll improve the, she says that's a bad clef. She says, that's a terrible trouble clef <laugh>. It's awful. Laughably bad.
Zac Hall (00:14:14):
I don't like white background icons. And this has got a color background and there's even some difference in the level of Exactly. Yes. You can tell it's got to it. So yeah. On an apple scale of icons, I think this is wonderful. <Laugh>.
Leo Laporte (00:14:30):
<Laugh>, okay. Yeah. I mean I'm no magic ma magician, so I don't, I don't, I don't know, but, and Jesse doesn't like it. So that's, you know, she says, I'm not one to jump on the icon criticizing bandwagon, but this is actually like church choir clip art. Bad and hilarious. <Laugh>. Well, that it got approved. Okay, fine. Okay, fine.
Andy Ihnatko (00:14:53):
I I love that they're, I love that everybody is an, is a legitimate expert and can give you informed opinions on something that you just absolutely did not notice. Yeah. And I'm not being sarcastic at all. I'm saying that. No, they're people who absolutely know what they're talking about. This is their area of expertise. And then you suddenly, well, damnit, I, I didn't think that was horrible, but now I kind of smell soap every time.
Leo Laporte (00:15:14):
Tweets. She, I'm a classically trained cellist, a composer, former Apple employee and c e o of a design studio that specialized in icon and UI design. So I, yeah, I think she has standing on this
Zac Hall (00:15:27):
Complaint. It, it, it, it's, it's thick in areas it shouldn't be in, in the actual iconic self is pretty elegant. So they, they took some liberty.
Leo Laporte (00:15:34):
This is a good sick burn. She says it's the musical equivalent of curls, the font curls. It's technically legible. It just looks extremely goofy. It's just, it's, it's the wrong s the wrong message to be sending. So
Zac Hall (00:15:49):
Curl sands, I think is what we're looking at.
Leo Laporte (00:15:51):
Curl sands. Yeah.
Zac Hall (00:15:53):
<Laugh>. <Laugh>.
Leo Laporte (00:15:55):
Is there a curl Sands? I don't know how you would do that. <Laugh> <laugh> curls. All about the surfs. All right. Enough of that. That's a silly story, a light story, but I just wanted to take a little victory lap. Andy and I are are very happy about that. That look forward to it. Yeah. can't wait. And maybe more people will listen to classical music or because of it. I don't know. And, and, and the Discord chat is telling us that some people like that treble cliff, <laugh> <laugh>, here comes treble in the words of that is what modern family guy.
Zac Hall (00:16:32):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> modern family.
Leo Laporte (00:16:34):
Yeah. Yeah. I just did a jeopardy thing outta that modern family guy. Alright, moving on to the real story, the big story, which I am very interested to get your opinions on this. Who was it? Ha who was, it had the story initially that it was Tim Cook's decision to override the engineers and the design team and release the Apple VR goggles this year. Jeff Williams, the c o o apparently said no, we want it out. The design team. And the engineer said, it's not, it's not ready. It's not ready. We don't, let's wait till we have the real deal, the AR thing. And then Tim weighs in and says, we're gonna, we're gonna release it. Is that you think an accurate assessment of what really happened? This I'll give credit to the Financial Times who had this story. Oh,
Jason Snell (00:17:37):
Yeah. It was the ft Yeah. I, so what the FT says is that the design team told the executives that they shouldn't release a mixed reality product at all and wait for the lightweight, imaginary glasses that don't exist and won't exist for many years, and only ship that. So that, that was apparently their story. This is a real you know, again, th there are degrees here, but that one just blew me away cuz that was like, come on. They're not living in reality. Like, they're literally just, just, no, no, let's just wait and not ship anything in this category for many years and then we'll invent something new and then we'll ship that and it'll be great. Whereas I think that Apple is very much on the tack that they have to start shipping something and there is a bar that they have to clear.
But you have to ship something that's viable that you can also start to iterate on in public. Right? You can't just keep it on the inside. It's not, it's gonna be flawed. It's gonna have issues and they're gonna get that feedback and then they're gonna work on it out in the open. But you gotta ship something at some point. So the idea, like, I would take it with more credence if it was like, look, it's been delayed several times. Clearly there have been lots of times where they've gotten to the point of like, should we ship this? And, and they're like, no, no, no. And Mark Gorman keeps on reporting like, well, they wanted to do it last year, but they're pushing it back <laugh>. Well, they wanted to do it this fall, but it's gonna be the spring. Well, they wanted to do it in the spring, but now it's gonna be the summer at wwdc. So that process is happening. But the fact that there are apparently former designers who are now belly aching to the financial times, ah, that they shouldn't ship shouldn, what that's what happened, shouldn't ship that product at all and should just sit on the sidelines. Which strikes me as just being, I mean, that's the kind of thing if you're the C e o or the, or the c o you say, Hmm, no,
Leo Laporte (00:19:19):
<Laugh>. Let me, let me read to you a little bit from the ft story. Patrick McGee and Tim Bradshaw writing apples operation team wanted to ship a version one product, a ski goggle like headset that will allow users to watch immersive 3D video, perform interactive workouts, or chat with realistic avatars through a revamped FaceTime. But Apple's famed industrial design team had cautioned patients wanting to delay until a more lightweight version of AR glasses became technically feasible. Most in the tech industry. Expect that to take several more years in deciding to press ahead with a debut. This year, cook has cited with operations Chief Jeff Williams, according to two people, familiar with Apple's decision making and overruled the early objections from Apple designers to wait for the tech to catch up with their vision. Is this comport with what you're hearing? Zach?
Zac Hall (00:20:14):
There's a few things that this made me think about. One is the narrative that is, is being pushed that operations is, is overpowering design. And that do you really want your operations team designing products when you've got a design team for that, especially at Apple. I think something that's important here is that the operations team, you can call it that, but it's really the executive level. It's Tim Cook who comes from operations and Jeff Williams who is operations. But he is also a lot of other things. And so it's just the top executives making the decisions, not just letting the design teams dictate what's going to happen. Another thing is, is the article framed this as the first thing from Tim Cook omitting AirPods saying that the Apple Watch was a Steve Jobs product. I'm not sure to what extent history says about that.
 I'm curious what you think about that. Snell. and then the other thing to make a point that Apple did not replace Johnny Ivo as the Chief design Officer sort of to say that Apple's not, they don't care about design as much cuz they didn't replace that role that was in reality made up to satisfy him for a few years. And then he was the first, he was the last, they could have mentioned that the actual hardware lead for, for design is leaving with no replacement. But they didn't mention that. So I, I like both of the porters. I respect both of them. I think there's a story here, but there were some things that if you just just know Apple, you're you're pretty good about it, then you'd see as kind of red flags about the the general story Yeah.
Leo Laporte (00:21:38):
Mean that consider that was the thrust of what they the real thrust of it wasn't so much that they're gonna release these headsets, which we kind of knew, but that, that, that design, which had previously really ruled the roost at Apple even before Johnny was made, the chief design officer, Johnny, ive and Steve Jobs certainly were the two power tent poles at Apple. But their, their point is now Evans hanky is leaving. And and you know, they haven't replaced the chief design officer, as you say, a nude position. So not a surprise. It sounds like they're saying the fts saying, yeah, this is a big power shift at Apple, but you don't think that's the case.
Jason Snell (00:22:22):
I mean, this is, this is the same narrative as Trip Michel's book Apple after Steve and I Yeah. I strongly suspect a lot of the same sources involved Uhhuh, which is sources who are people who used to work in that group with Johnny Ive and aren't at Apple anymore. And they want to pa paint a narrative that everything they did was in the right. And now Apple has gone in the wrong direction because nobody's listening to the designers. And, and Zack makes a, an excellent point, like, wait a second. The Apple watch when it was released was being accused of not having that Steve Jobs magic because it was such a Tim Cook product, and now suddenly it's a Steve Jobs product, <laugh> and a Johnny I product. And, and Tim Cook doesn't get any credit for that. He will give him AirPods maybe, but like, I, I don't know.
I mean, everybody, everybody's gonna have their own bias when they're, when they're relying on these sources. And it just, it, I I get the same smell from this story as I did from the Trip Mickel book, which is that he got a lot of people who have left the company from Johnny Eve's design group to talk. And there weren't necessarily, the other side of it would be people who maybe are still at Apple, right. And aren't gonna talk to him about it. And so you end up with this narrative that is a really easy, fun, broad narrative, which is, apple used to be a design focus company, and now they're run by engineers or they're run by bean counters. And while there is, I think at its core some truth to that, I think that's you know, a lot of these stories just completely blow it out of the water and overplay it.
And this, that's why, that's why that moment where they're like, we don't even think they should ship a VR product and they should just wait for that ar product. That again, to be clear, that technology has to be invented. It doesn't exist to make a spectacular thing that you can wear like a pair of glasses that doesn't augmented reality at a very high level, like that product doesn't exist. It's not gonna exist for years. People have to invent and advance the tech to get there. Right. And so for them to say, let's just sit on the sidelines and not ship a product. Like, I, it's a bizarre, it's, it's a bizarre report, honestly. And it, it's the kind of thing you get from I think a bunch of people who have sour grapes and have left Apple and think that, you know, as most people do when they leave a a job, it's not, it's, it's, it hasn't been as good since I left. It just hasn't.
Andy Ihnatko (00:24:30):
Although it does bring up some interesting questions though. The Apple Watch and the iPhone are two interesting examples of products that you could argue weren't ready, but they shipped anyway because the moment was right. Famously I think the Apple Watch, they just had to put it out there. They had to, they had to, they, they could design a really cool looking fashion watch. They decided that, hey, let's demo it by telling people that you could open, not only open up your garage door from your watch, but you could watch live video of your garage door opening. That was the big demo that was gonna peak, get people to fork over $12,000 for a solid gold gadget watch. It took a while for them to realize that, okay, this is a, this is a fitness watch that also has really good phone features, but we're gonna sell this as a fitness device.
The iPhone also a two G phone that doesn't do cut and paste, doesn't have apps in a world in which every pH the best phones have 3g, all of them could do cut and paste. All of them had apps, stores or ways to side loads app on apps on them. There is an interest, there's an interesting metric here where Apple's also here has a product where there is not even something to copy from. There is no successful version of this product unless you want to, unless you wanna count a game headsets, which you could definitely do. But I don't think Apple is interested in creating a $3,000 product that's just for watching movies and playing and playing really cool lightsaber games on. And so there is, there is the argument to be, to be made of, at what point do we say that the time is not right.
We, the, the ground has not been, we need to, we need to spend a couple of years preparing the ground to plant this seed before we can actually do anything with it. But I, I do think that it's a good idea to create, create low, create low expectations. Say we're go if, if, if they, if they announce this by saying that this is not a consumer product yet, this is just for developers and our partners who gonna need some time to get their, to wrap their head around the idea of virtual reality app, so to speak so that you can hit, hit the ground running and get a great piece of hardware. And if you're do, if you're in enterprise if, and you want to create custom apps specifically for your business, we would love for you to use our $3,000 goggles to do that. They're gonna have to start sometimes so long as they don't say we are, as long as it, as long as, as long as Tim doesn't come out and say we are here to change the world. We think that the intersection of humanity is No, no, no. You're creating a $3,000 thing for people who can afford a $3,000 thing and wanna develop the first generation of things for the $3,000 thing. That would be a success.
Leo Laporte (00:27:01):
John Gruber on airing Fireball also points out that the Financial Times left out the 1000 person strong ar vr team under Mike Rockwell. Yeah. Who, who might have an opinion on this. And Greg Jos ACT's product marketing division. And so the real question in my mind, yeah, I understand these designers, you know, who don't work there anymore, have an opinion maybe they would say, I'll defend them. Maybe they would say, well, we don't want Apple to release a, a dead on arrival product, especially at $3,000. And I have to say that is a legitimate concern, isn't it? I mean, VR is not exactly taken the world by storm.
Jason Snell (00:27:46):
It, it is. Well, I mean, it is a legitimate concern. I think I would say that from the designer's perspective, you know, obviously there's the conversation about the VR product and then there's the conversation about the AR product and the FTS report says that they specifically said, just don't make a VR product. Which is, I mean, that's a take, right? But I think if you're, if you're any other part of Apple, the way that they viewed this category is that if they, if they want believe that an AR product is gonna be the future, they have to start iterating on this technology and get it going, and that they think that there's enough in the VR product to make it viable. Now, again, it's normally
Leo Laporte (00:28:22):
They'll do secret, right? Normally Apple, I mean the car to a point, they're, they're gonna go, yeah, they're gonna get to a, as far along as they can without releasing a dud product. I mean, they don't want to Google glass on their hands.
Jason Snell (00:28:34):
They, they, they don't, right? But I think they may look at AR and say, that is where we want to go. And we can't just start with ar we have to start now, and we have to start inventing this stuff and getting the software to be better. I, I, I think Andy made the great point, like, is it gonna be there? I I think their greatest risk right now is that they've got a product that isn't gonna appeal to almost anybody. And if it's gonna cost what it does, and that they're gonna have to spin that in a certain way, and I'm not sure Apple's ego will allow them to spin it in that way. And then that, that, that's when you say, this will change the world and we are gonna market it to people, and then they're gonna get the sticker shock of the actual price and, and there's a risk. That's
Leo Laporte (00:29:08):
All true. There's a risk that people go, well, that's Apple, that there's their entry and not, and there's no chance for the ar. And I think Andy, you and I, as we've talked about, these ar spectacles are very much in favor of them, but that's a very different thing from VR goggles or
Jason Snell (00:29:27):
Whatever, and far away assets
Leo Laporte (00:29:29):
And far away, and not even tech technology doesn't even exist yet.
Andy Ihnatko (00:29:32):
Yeah, yeah. As, as, as Jason said, the, just the technology for combining real, your actual vision with an overlaid graphic then, then there is not even yet a component maker who can deliver that. Their best that we can get is that you can get a little, you can get a little Google glass sort of thing where you can get an overlay of monochrome, basically text, which is not useless. That could be a very, very useful thing to, to put into a pair of glasses. But even then you have the, you have the problem of, okay, now it's gonna be great, so long as you're only inside, what if you go outside on a cloudy day in late afternoon where there's very little sunlight outside and suddenly nothing works, and even it works perfectly. How ha have fun with your 100 degree field of vision, where as soon as you turn your head, like it has to keep up with you because there is no per peripheral vision whatsoever.
This is by, this is nowhere near a solved problem. So this is one of the reasons why I'm kind of encouraged by Apple saying, let's make what we can make now. Let's not plan for something that we don't even know can exist for another five years. Yet you can do virtual reality because you can have a fully immersive goggle experience. I think that the the only, the only thing that I will constitute a failure for me with Apple is if they did manage to have a successful product. But everybody agrees the only reason why they sold out, even their, their short million unit run was because it had an Apple logo on it. It had a certain cachet about it. There were a lot of people who wanted to be the first to have these things. But when push come to shove, just like Google Glass after initial few weeks of excitement, it winds up being in a drawer. That would be a, that would be a massive failure for Apple
Leo Laporte (00:31:12):
Gruber points out that the Financial Times chief argument, which is that Tim Cook for is forcing this to seal his legacy, is actually completely wrong. Tim Cook's legacy is, is intact. And actually, this is a risky thing to do this, this, this could be the Newton to caper to to his his tenure as c e o not, you know the iPhone. So Zach, are you gonna spend three grand and run out and buy a lovely Apple mixed reality? They're calling it mixed reality, by the way. But let's just face it. It's v it's vr. Yeah.
Zac Hall (00:31:49):
I, I hope someone spends the three grand on my behalf.
Leo Laporte (00:31:52):
<Laugh> <laugh>. You know, you're not dying for one. Huh? Do you do any VR at all?
Zac Hall (00:31:58):
I, I, I've done PlayStation vr and that's the extent of my vr. I, I guess unless Google Cardboard. I've done that as well, which is, there you go. More economical. There you
Leo Laporte (00:32:06):
Go there. Vr,
Andy Ihnatko (00:32:07):
That was a great idea. Yeah,
Leo Laporte (00:32:08):
Yeah, yeah. Which Google killed
Zac Hall (00:32:11):
The bottom line on the FFC article for me is that at least Johnny, I are people close to him that aren't there anymore, don't want their name on the product, they don't wanna take credit for it. <Laugh>, they're not. We understand that. And then there's something I'd rather
Leo Laporte (00:32:22):
Take credit for the thinnest, lightest keyboard apples ever made the fabulous butterfly keyboard <laugh>. That's my legacy, says Johnny. Ive, I mean, there's no question that the design team has taken some bad turns under Johnny. Ive, right? I mean
Andy Ihnatko (00:32:40):
As a static object, that is a beautiful keyboard as, as something you simply regard from a distance.
Leo Laporte (00:32:44):
It's, that is, that is an achievement
Jason Snell (00:32:46):
Or used in a completely spotless clean white room.
Leo Laporte (00:32:50):
There you go. In a white room. Yes. It's where Johnny lives works great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have, by the way, thanks to Mark 40 sent me even more of Johnny's red noses. So John, this is
Jason Snell (00:33:00):
Leo Laporte (00:33:01):
Johnny, you should never have released the red nose. It wasn't ready.
Andy Ihnatko (00:33:05):
I'm telling you that aluminum is really rough on the skin. <Laugh>, you gotta,
Zac Hall (00:33:09):
This is
Andy Ihnatko (00:33:09):
Also a powder, powder,
Jason Snell (00:33:10):
Powder. There's definitely a you're, you're reaping what you sow kind of thing happening here, which is when Steve Jobs died, apple was really, really concerned about maintaining a view from the outside of stability and that Apple would continue to be great. And Johnny, you know, Johnny was burned out. We all know that. We've read all the books about it. Johnny basically was done and they paid him a lot of money and gave him an exalted title and put him in charge of anything that he wanted to, cars, software, you name it. Because for a while after Steve Jobs died, they wanted to project stability. And then after that time passed, they were able to disengage from Johnny I and let him go on his way. And you know, it, it's the long goodbye, right? Whereas first, he's a consultant. He's not doing much consulting and they're not listening to him, but he's still, we're paying him. And we'll say he's there, and then finally he, he goes away. So like, this is the, this is the reaping of that, which is now you've got people on Johnny's team and the design team who are like, aha, you didn't listen to us. But you look, I think it was a good idea for Apple in that period to build him up in order to reassure people on the outside. But you know, now they have to pay for it when the designers throw rocks at them.
Leo Laporte (00:34:19):
And, and I have to, as long as we're excoriating the financial times, I, I really have to take issue umbridge, if you will, with this egregious chart. Jason. Jason, you should have added you. You could have added some colors to this chart. This thing is horrific. First of all, three shades of blue. What the hell <laugh>. And then I don't even understand what this is. It's just all mish mushed together. It's a gist is that subsequent versions of of iPhone, apple Watch and iPod have done better than the original versions, but it's hard. I see. You really have to,
Jason Snell (00:34:58):
They they get better as they go. I see it. Yeah.
Zac Hall (00:35:00):
And I have a point Uhhuh, I have a point on that too, which is if you look at the, that chart, the, the newer iPhone does better than, than the earlier ones. That's awesome. On the, on the headset, it won't be that way because with the phone last year's gets replaced with this year's, which is about the same price, and it does even more with the headset. We're not gonna see a $3,000 version this year and then next year see an even better $2,000 version, we're gonna see a more affordable version than the $2,000 one that doesn't do quite as much to, you know, make some decisions that that makes it not as expensive. But we're not gonna see headset two replace headset one.
Leo Laporte (00:35:33):
That's a good point.
Zac Hall (00:35:34):
Yeah. In the same way that we do with watch and, and iPhone.
Leo Laporte (00:35:36):
Yeah. Right. Yeah. So there won't be that growth. It'll just be, there'll
Jason Snell (00:35:39):
Probably sell a lot more of, and
Leo Laporte (00:35:41):
Then nothing <laugh>,
Jason Snell (00:35:41):
Right? So it'll be cheaper. But
Leo Laporte (00:35:43):
Yeah, I, you know what, Zach, I'm with you. I, if somebody else buys me that headset yes, but I <laugh>, but I, you know, and I, cuz I have to figure out, cuz nobody's gonna buy it for me. I have to really figure out whether I should buy a $3,000 VR headset. I foolishly last year bought the Oculus Pro that Facebook put out for $1,600 and I've, and I had to f felt like I was wearing the sucker hat the whole time. I think I might not buy this, but we have to, Jason will, you'll get a review unit that'll
Jason Snell (00:36:16):
Solve I that might Yeah. Listen, like with Zach, like, oh yeah, yeah. Come on. Review unit, bring it in, baby. Because otherwise I gotta pay for it out of my own pocket. Yeah. Cause we
Andy Ihnatko (00:36:25):
Should, I'll take any color.
Jason Snell (00:36:26):
I'm, we have
Andy Ihnatko (00:36:27):
You take the yellow one.
Leo Laporte (00:36:28):
You'll take the yellow one.
Jason Snell (00:36:29):
All right. Yeah. Well that's, and the truth is, if you're in this business, like the truth is, if, if that's the only way I can get one and write about it, I will say we have to $2,000 on. Yeah. But again, I'm not a good model because this is what I do professionally. I'm not the don't be like me kids. I'm not have develop my work.
Leo Laporte (00:36:43):
Have I, I really wonder, I don't know if developers are gonna be so all in on this concept that they're gonna spend three grand to develop something for a a dozen for
Jason Snell (00:36:52):
A tiny audience. Yeah. For a tiny audience of people who would buy the $3,000 product. That's the thing. Developers, honestly, a developer will spend $3,000 on an expensive developer kit of a brand new Apple platform that they think has potential. The problem is what's the potential market? And that's where it comes back to Andy, you know, saying, oh, with the $3,000 we're changing the world. And the developers are like, guys, you gotta make a version that sells millions and millions of units. Otherwise, why am I putting in my time here? And that is the, that's the real question, is how they frame that. Because all the reports say that, you know, in a year they'll be a cheaper version. But that's a long time to wait. If you're a developer waiting for revenue to come in from this platform.
Leo Laporte (00:37:32):
Andy, do you want be our Jim Kramer and say it's a, it's a, it's a no buy
Andy Ihnatko (00:37:39):
<Laugh>. I don't know. Is it guarantee it's gonna be a, to be the wrong advice because that's <laugh>, that's, that's worth Ouch. Jim Kramer Price
Leo Laporte (00:37:45):
Kramer the guy who's selling you to buy Silicon Valley Banks.
Andy Ihnatko (00:37:47):
Silicon Valley Bank two weeks ago. Oh boy. Opportunity. Opportunity. Yeah. It's, yeah, again, I think, I, I think that a lot of people who, who are really motivated to have it, are gonna have a good time with it because there're, there are some of, I I I'm always here to defend Google Glass because I, I always liked the way that Google proposed it. They said that this is an experiment where not only that, but something very, very clever that I, I'm sure was based on the rate at which they can manufacture them, but I think it's something that Apple could copy. They were like, no, here's, there is not an ordering page. You'll get it in two to four weeks. It's like, no, there's a, we are op we have, we're opening up another thousand buying slots. And if you basically said that, no, this is not something you go into the Apple store and you even try out it is, we have another 10,000 that are ready to go and maybe and tell and fill, at least fill out a form to tell us why you think you need one of the, you need one of these units.
 And even it's even oddly enough, even if it's just bs, even if they're not actually looking at these things and actually pass failing people, if it really is something where, no, it's not something that the general public is being encouraged to buy. That is something good. Remember Google Glass, they, it was always framed as an experiment. They spent the, the entire demo after the sky, after the skydiving live skydiving video. Oh streaming. Yeah. Via Google Chat. They were, they were saying that we, the, they were saying that we don't understand what wearables what what how wearables are gonna fit in. We don't understand how the general public is going to react to wearables. And we, and by that we don't just mean the people who wear them, but the people who interact with those who wear them. So therefore, as an experiment where you we're putting this out to collect data on this sort of stuff, and we feel as though we'll learn a lot by that. So that's why I don't, that's why I'm hesitant to call it a failure because I don't think they ever really made it, they re really presented it as a commercial product. If Apple does the same thing with this first iteration of their goggles, I think that that will set them up for greater success later on Google. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (00:39:43):
I I will, I will, I will disagree with you on that. Google Glass damaged Google's reputation and killed that. I
Andy Ihnatko (00:39:51):
Think people have misunderstood it.
Leo Laporte (00:39:52):
Yeah. I mean, Robert Scobel taking a shower with it. It, it was, it was a nightmare all round for Google. And I don't think anybody at Google would characterize glass as well. No harm, no foul. It was not a good thing.
Andy Ihnatko (00:40:04):
Well, no, I, I, I, at least, at least they, they did the right thing by it and by the, and by the way, I loved my Google Glass. I think, I think that if they, if all they did, if all they did was remove the camera and simply say, here is just simply a heads up display that, that, that response to voice commands, I think that would've been a completely different story. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (00:40:22):
And had it been accepted and had Robert Scobel not showered with it, maybe they would've released version two. Well, not,
Andy Ihnatko (00:40:27):
But they didn't. Well, not, not only, not only that, but let's say, but how, how about if Robert Scobel, like if given, if given like the first position in line for q and a with Larry Page saying, hi, I'm one of the original glass holes. Like, oh,
Jason Snell (00:40:40):
Let's, let's also give Google some credit here for the death of glass. Because Google is famously a company that just abandons things. Yeah. Right. When they, when there's the first whiff of Stink, they just are out of there. And I would say Apple shipping this product, assuming they do it I think they're committed, right? Like I, I think if they ship it, they're committed to having this platform for, for a long time. It might be the first thing
Leo Laporte (00:41:06):
To do the Apple socks
Jason Snell (00:41:08):
<Laugh>. Yeah. But this is a platform, Leo, this would be like the Newton, you'd have to go back to the Newton for this, right? Okay. And if, if, if it is that big a flop, then, I mean, there'll be a legacy for Tim Cook, but I, I think Apple has so much money they can afford to iterate on this for a long time. So, and the alternative is Google, like Google Glass didn't get laughed out of the market, it got laughed at and then Google just dropped it like a hot rock, like every other project that goo Google drops.
Leo Laporte (00:41:34):
Yeah. We don't know what, what the real, I, you know, I have to say, you'd be nuts to pay 3000 for this in June when it's announced. Yeah. Wait, six months it'll be 2000, right?
Andy Ihnatko (00:41:46):
I mean, buy or buy it on eBay after the after, after all, after everyone who bought it just for review as now desperate to free up that capital for other things I need to write about. Here's
Leo Laporte (00:41:54):
The problem. What do they do next year? Do they do something next year? That's a consumer, that's what the rumor says, right? All
Jason Snell (00:42:00):
All the, yeah, all the reports are that this is Apple Reality Pro and that it's gonna be their high end model and that there will be a consumerish model, although we say consumer model, but when the high end is three grand, the, the, the consumer model might still be more than a thousand dollars. We don't know like where is that bar? And, and that, again, if I was a developer thinking about investing in this platform, that is gonna be very different than all of Apple's other platforms. I would have questions about like, will will this ever be a high volume product in the next two or three years? Or is this Apple saying like, oh no, but in 10 years it's gonna be great because I can't, you know, feed myself on sales from 10 years from now if I'm a
Andy Ihnatko (00:42:39):
Developer. Yeah, you don't, and, and realize that App App store fortunes are made with in-app purchases on games. They're not people who are, who are buying omni outliner by subscription. And so that's gonna be that's gonna be a sticking point. But if app this is also gonna be an experiment for them to realize that this is the, this is the, if this is the pitch to pitch to the angels version of it, where we don't, we're not gonna care about how much this costs. We're gonna be pitching this as a developer edition, as a first generation thing. It could be that one of the things, most important things they learn in the first year is that, okay, we thought you needed 19 cameras. It turns out that only six of them are giving us data. Yeah, that's really significant. We thought we, we needed we, we thought we needed 320 frames per second.
Actually 240 is just fine. And when you realize that there is absolutely no way in hell, even with the greatest app that has totally changed the world and caused dogs and cats to love one another as God intended them to people are not wearing this for more than two and a half hours for, for, for, for love or money. Okay. So now it's the all every, all the slick things that we did to make sure that you'd be able to wear this for six hours. That's not relevant, terribly relevant either. And then you, and then finally you get to the point where people are willing to, people who would be balking at a $600 Oculus set might say that, well, look, this is an Apple product. I'll, I'll pay $800 for it. I'll pay a thousand dollars for it. Not just, not just for the Apple tax, but because I'm used to spend, I'm, I've been conditioned to spend a little more for that. It is desirable to me and it's worth the extra money
Leo Laporte (00:44:10):
For. I wanna take a little
Andy Ihnatko (00:44:11):
Break. Anything could
Leo Laporte (00:44:12):
Happen. When we come back though, I'm gonna ask all three of you your predictions for for this <laugh>. But I also wanna give a, a little shout out to Jason Snell, who after LA last week's episode went out, found yellow everything, and made a video packed a yellow iPhone. I had to that is,
Jason Snell (00:44:33):
I wish I had a banana and a lemon in my house, but
Leo Laporte (00:44:35):
Didn't the yellows video I've ever, ever seen do not adjust your set <laugh>.
Jason Snell (00:44:41):
Yeah, I mean, really, cuz what else was there to talk about Leo? It's just a yellow iPhone. So where did you
Leo Laporte (00:44:46):
I know, yeah, yeah, it's yellow,
Jason Snell (00:44:48):
Yellow iPhone with tennis ball. And you know,
Leo Laporte (00:44:51):
Where'd you get the barrel of monkeys?
Jason Snell (00:44:54):
<Laugh>. I've had that since I worked at Macworld. I've had a barrel of monkeys barrel and it's yellow, so it's like, yo, you win, you're yellow, you get to be in this video. You
Leo Laporte (00:45:03):
Found everything yellow and including that my t-shirt well done in
Jason Snell (00:45:06):
Depth. And I did, I did some ratings. If you haven't seen the video, I did some ratings of, of yellow. I talked about its pros and it's cons. <Laugh>. I think I gave it four outta five, maybe three outta five. Like it's a good color, but it's not like orange. It's not that good <laugh>. So like, it, it slides, it's versatile because like the banana and a lemon tastes nothing alike. So obviously yellow has got some versatility, but very nice, you know, again, very nice. What else am I gonna
Leo Laporte (00:45:29):
Say? Very nice. You did a great job. Thank you. Doubling down on the yellow <laugh>. We'll have more with our special guest from nine to five Mac, Zack Hall Jason Snell, Andy Ihnatko, the first word from our sponsor, express p n using the internet without express vpn n is like one of those people on an airplane, you know, on the cell phone call talking real loud. It, it's a <laugh>, get rid, sell that svb sell, sell. It's, it's not exactly private and everybody in the plane can hear everything you're saying. When you're not using a V P N, your internet service provider as somebody sitting on your wifi network can see what you're doing, your most private sensitive information. So don't be that person on the plane yelling into the phone. Use Express VP n Now, I'll tell you there are three reasons people choose a p n security.
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Don't make me spell vpn. N X P R e S S vpn break. These are the guys, and we thank them so much for supporting Mac Break. You support it right back when you use that address express break. So I think it's legitimate for anybody working for Apple to, to raise their hand and say, you know, I understand we spend a lot of money developing this product. When we thought of it several years ago, just like when Mark Zuckerberg started calling Facebook meta, it seemed like a good idea, but it's, it's not, it's obvious <laugh>, nobody wants these things. They make 11% of the population nauseated in the first 10 minutes. Maybe this is a bad idea. Jason, do you think Apple should or should not do this?
Jason Snell (00:50:39):
Well, if I'm Tim Cook, I say I hear your point there, but this is Tim. I hear your point. But we also have 120 or whatever billion dollars in cash in the bank. And the, my number one goal as the C E O is to make sure that the iPhone is never replaced by some other technology. And I feel like AR glasses are the one thing that could maybe do that. And I can spend a few billion in over the next 10 years every year in order to reassure that if they're, if AR glasses are ever a thing, we are there with the best product in that category. But is this necessary?
Leo Laporte (00:51:10):
This is how develop an AR we start. You think this is, I
Jason Snell (00:51:13):
Think it, Mr. Cook? I, it's cause I think, yeah, I I think it is because they have to. This is Tim. I, I have to we have to get the software out there. We have to understand what user's issues are. We, we need to start building our, our reality operating system now so that when we get, and, and so that we can start developing the technology that is gonna get us to that future. Because I believe if I'm Tim Cook that I can, I can lead us there. I think that that would be their argument. If you're asking for my prediction, my prediction is that this one will be have very limited sales, that they will probably cut its price. That they will say, no, no, no, next year is the real one. And that in the end, in like two or three years, they will find some niches where people really love it, but it will not be a broadly accepted consumer product for quite a while. And that, and that they will, you know, they'll keep pushing it because I think the prize is something that you can wear in public outside and that it, they just have to get there. So my, my guess is I don't think this is gonna be a flop, but I also don't think it's gonna be a hit.
Leo Laporte (00:52:16):
Yeah, I am. I will buy the spectacles. If they ever solve that problem, I will buy the spectacles. I don't think this puts them in a better position or worse position to make the spectacles. And I kind of agree with the whoever these leakers are, that Apple should just forget it and wait till the Specac work hard on the spectacles. How about you, Andy?
Andy Ihnatko (00:52:36):
I think that they can make a, make it a big success if they are concentrating on like the, the HoloLens market. If they're saying if they're selling this to enterprise, they're selling it to the military, they're selling this.
Leo Laporte (00:52:47):
Can I point out that to HoloLens? Is, is for all intents and purposes dead, the military has backed out of that deal and Microsoft fired the team. Don't you already have a signal? That's a bad idea.
Andy Ihnatko (00:53:01):
I, I think that Apple though, can sell to these, to, to basically when you, when you come to, when Apple has a cache that a lot of other companies don't have, Microsoft is really good and that they can basically bend over backwards for an enterprise market. Apple is really good in that you can basically tell a community of architects that we will create the, the greatest visualization tool, the greatest demo tool. A tool where once you ha once your client comes in to, to your VR space and you hand them a $3,000 pair of Apple of Apple goggles that's not gonna seal the deal on creating the ad, the addition to your public library. But it's gonna help. I think that they can for a limited product, they can have some success. They still have an uphill battle to simply say that virtual realities for anything other than watching movies and playing games at this point, they're gonna have to create that market.
I think if anybody can create it, it's probably going to be Apple, possibly, because they've got some of the most wonderful mutants in the developer community at Apple <laugh>. I mean, the people who are just gonna, there's just gonna find the awesome in this product and in these APIs that Apple never imagined. And if Apple's smart enough to follow where independent developers lead, they really could go somewhere. But this is unprecedented. They don't apple has its truth, 60 billion in cash. It's no longer 120. They've been doing a lot of buybacks lately, but still let's sell That's, that's more the couch cushion money, right? Yeah. A lot of, and they, and they are the company that can keep <laugh>, that that can, the, their, even, even their def their definition of we've created a failed product is no, no, no. Apple tv. It's a hobby.
It's a hobby that we're spending a lot of money and a lot of development on, and we're keeping in the price list and we're still shipping, but it's a hobby. So they could continue this as a hobby for a number of years until display technology moves up until mobile processors move up until a lot of things move up. And until, again, third parties tell them, here's what this thing is actually for. Again, I keep coming back to Apple Watch. They didn't, they didn't set out to develop a fitness watch, but everyone told them, Hey, that's a great fitness watch. And Apple said, yes, we are geniuses for creating this wonderful fitness watch. Yes, <laugh>. Zach, you like it? Zach, what do you think? Hit or miss?
Zac Hall (00:55:14):
I think <laugh>, I think that developer adoption is gonna be virtually non-existent because Yep. You've, you've had the success of the app store for the iPhone, the early success for the iPad, and then kind of a pullback on the iPad in terms of apps the utter failure of the App store on the Apple tv, on the iMessage App Store. So I don't think there's gonna be a lot of developer enthusiasm there and just because of the, the prices, like the big reason. But it's not something that I think the deliver is gonna wanna invest in and, and risk, but it doesn't mean there won't be apps though, because the, the, the apps that will matter are developer partners. Apple does now, before it's even out, which is, you know, you wanna make sure that you've got big game makers. You wanna make sure that you've got all the video streaming services that you, as many as you can come on board.
And that reminds me of something that I guess I was so forgettable I forgot, but I, I tried a Meta Quests two, which I think is for around $300 and, and this is 10 times that, but anyway I, I spent about a day and a half with it. I tried, I literally didn't know what it was for. I didn't know why people were buying it outside of the curiosity of a new gadget. And what I, what I learned pretty quickly is that it's really a gaming console. Yeah. And it's not the best gaming console. You can get better ones for the same amount of money, but it is a gaming console and light gaming consoles. You've got not just games, but you've got the, the streaming video apps and, and there's that. And I watched Netflix on the Quest two and it was like a virtual TV and like a ski lodge and <laugh> <laugh>.
It wasn't full screen immersive. But, and I had an issue where I was, I wanted to lay down, I was watching it, but it was like relative to where I was, I couldn't quite get it right and like reset my reference. So it was much harder than watching a, a TV on the wall. And and bottom line, I think that experience sucked and that if there's one thing Apple can do, it can, it can look at a, a market, a category and say, you know, this exists, or there's obviously interest in it, it's not gone away yet. But we can actually do a good version of that. And I think they will do that. I think it'll be a really good maybe gaming device, maybe communications device, but definitely a, a good way to watch tv, watch movies, watch sports. Absolutely.
Now they bought, they bought Next vr a few years ago. And that, that was an actual service that you could stream N b a basketball games among others and have a, a virtual experience, you know, viewing of it courtside seats without being there and in, in that pit. Just, you know, it's more compelling. But it, it's, I think it's got, they gotta lean heavy on entertainment and, and, and games. And I'm not sure that the communication stuff, you know, is it gonna be a better FaceTime experience than just using your phone in your hand? I'm not sure. The AR stuff, they've already built that up for for years, so they've got that to, to work off of. But, you know, ar for one and then the entertainment stuff is gonna be a big one. I think so, yeah,
Andy Ihnatko (00:58:17):
For that. Agree. Matthew, I agree with you so strong the, to this day. The, the best thing I like about about VR Glasses are simply an app that puts you, it's, it's, again, I I, this is make me sound so boring, but an app that simply puts you in the best seat in a really good movie theater. Yes. With a huge screen. I mean, I've, my favorite, one of my favorite movies is 1776. And my Blu-ray is like two 30, like 2 35 to one, like the real, the really wide screen aspect ratio. I have never seen it in a theater. And the first time I just randomly grabbed, grabbed it and popped it in. And I'm looking at the, I'm looking at the cinematography of how these things were set up. And for the first time I realized that there's a, there's a shot in which John Adams is checking.
John Adams and Ben Franklin are checking in to see how Jefferson is doing, like writing the Declaration of Independence. And of course Ben Ren Franklin just, he's, he's an old man. So he immediately like, goes to the back of the room, gets into bed, and starts napping while the two guys in the foreground are talking. And cuz I've only ever seen this like on a TV in my living room, as soon as I saw that in the virtual, huge theater realized that, oh, you clever bastard. I'm s because I'm, look, I'm supposed to be looking at these two guys in the foreground. I'm not supposed to be really paying attention to Ben Franklin at all. He's supposed to be in my peripheral vision, but I've never had to be, I've never been able to see this with soften my peripheral vision before. So a lot of people, if this is gonna be their first virtual reality experience, that could, I don't think it'll be $3,000 worth. But once they get it down to a thousand dollars inside the Apple store and they can test it out, that that's the sort of thing that gets people, at least it puts the, a product on their radar. Maybe not, I'm gonna buy it now, but hey, I've got a tax refund coming in four months. Maybe I'll use some my mad money for one of these.
Jason Snell (01:00:03):
So I have a quest too, and I don't think it sucks, but I do think it points the, how shall I phrase this, Zach? It points the way to where it could be better. <Laugh> it is, I enjoy it. But, but like Andy, like I have a Skybox, I think is the name of a good, the good movie playing app on the MetWest. And you know, it's grainy cuz it's a low resolution screen. But you can, sitting in that theater watching something, it can be a, an actually good experience. And, and I always had that thought of like, now imagine it with spatial audio and at actual high resolution that you're sitting in a movie theater. Also, I'll say 3D movies, which are really lousy in a movie theater because they cut the brightness in half when you put the glasses on on a set of VR gal girls 3D movies actually look good because they're full brightness in your eyes.
And and at high resolution, those will look great. So I think Apple, because they've got a movie, a video service and a movie store and all of that, like, I think that they're gonna lean in on that and I think that that will be good. And then games I would only throw in on top of games that the gamification of fitness has actually been very successful. And that's why you see Meta trying to buy like Beat Saber and then Supernatural and like they're, they know what hits on their platform. And, and that's Apple will learn the same thing if they are all, I mean, they're already taking tips from what Meta's learning. And so like fitness is already an Apple thing, right? So fitness in vr, and I know it sounds kind of weird, but the truth is, and I hope it's sweat proof, but the truth is sometimes, you know, exercising where you can be in an immersive environment where you don't have to think about exercising that can, that, that has shown already to be successful. So there are, there are niches. It's just not gonna be like every, your mom's not gonna call you up and say, I'm, I'm getting this VR thing. Right? Like, I just think, I think it's gonna be some very specific niches. And I hope Apple's satisfied with that cuz they're gonna have to be in this for the long haul.
Zac Hall (01:01:57):
Yeah. And, and three, three grand is an crazy amount of money to spend on a home theater setup up. Especially if you look at, you know, you live alone, you buy a TV and a home theater setup, so it's just for you. Well this is just for you as well, but it's even more just for you and it's portable, so that's pretty good. And we know that Apple's doing VR content already with TV Plus they've got that worked out. We know that they wanted VR rights for N F L <laugh> <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, and, and that was why they walked away.
Leo Laporte (01:02:21):
Oh really? Oh, I didn't know that. We didn't know that. Oh, that,
Zac Hall (01:02:25):
That, yeah. It's interesting reported out that, that that was sort of the, the breaking point for the deal to have Sunday a ticket was they wanted right to things that didn't exist yet. I e virtual reality streaming rights. So take the next vr b a scenario and apply it to football. And the N F L wanted to sell that separately, understandably. So, so this
Leo Laporte (01:02:43):
Is kinda surprising to me because honestly my, maybe people like to watch movies and, and football games all by themselves. But it's a social thing for me when I'm watching football, especially, I don't want to sit on us couch with three other people wearing headsets.
Jason Snell (01:03:01):
No, but it will get you a social thing with your friends who are not local, right? And there are a lot of people who are more isolated and the idea, so
Leo Laporte (01:03:08):
You're sitting all in that ski lodge, watching the football game together,
Jason Snell (01:03:11):
Watching the football game, and you'll be able, like, you're sitting next to each other, you'll be able to talk to each other while you're watching it. I think that, that, I think there's some potential there. It's not for everybody, but I do think that there's some potential there to watch a movie with your friends who you might not be able to see a movie with otherwise.
Andy Ihnatko (01:03:25):
And, and the, and the other cool thing is when they shoot live events like in 360, the ability to direct your attention to whatever end of the court, yeah. You actually wanna focus on a again moment. One of first positive experiences with VR was actually with Google Cardboard cuz they had some sort of a, what was it? Lip Sync challenge that that Jimmy Fallon was hosting or whatever. And so they did like a 360 and they put the 360 camera just at a random place, like in the audience. And it really taught me a lot because, because the audience was, it was like a, it was like a a music audience where everybody was in no seats. Everybody was standing up. It was kind of crowded, so you couldn't move around. But that makes it perfect for virtual reality because that means that you're not gonna be walking around doing things you can't do.
You'll be always there. And I was doing this without even thinking about it. I was doing the same things I do whenever I'm at a live performance where yes, I'm paying attention to the, the performance, but I'm actually, actually wanna see, look at the, the edge of the stage to see, like, I wanna see the tech guys who are like trying to solve a problem. I wanna see the host who's going over some notes. I wanna turn around and see where the lights, where the cameras. And that really does put you in a place where I'm not simply passively watching entertainment. I feel like I'm actually there. And so, Jason's right, like if you had a situation where you're gonna create essentially virtually four seats at a stadium where you can be talking to telling your person three, your friend 500 miles away saying, Hey, look at, look at what the coach is doing over there. I think he's signaling for a change over there. Doesn't matter that the camera operator is not looking there. The fact that you can change your point of view and look there a lot of really cool things. It's, it's, it's gonna be hard to change these really good first experiences into something that makes you forget how much money you spent on this thing.
Leo Laporte (01:05:10):
I am gonna go on the record saying none of that's compelling in the least to me, <laugh> nobody wants to wear these things for more than 10 minutes. A certain percentage of the world gets sick, which is never a good thing for a consumer product. I just think this is a massive flop for Apple. And, and of course when, when that, when you say that, then the fir the, you know, I'm, I'm now the Steve Bomber on the iPhone guy <laugh> it should have
Andy Ihnatko (01:05:36):
A keyboard. Where's the
Leo Laporte (01:05:37):
Keyboard? But I have to wonder, what is it that Apple could do that would make this thing better than all of the things we've already seen? Playstation, VR and the HTC vibe and the, that's the question, Oculus is what are they gonna do that's better? Is it a I mean,
Zac Hall (01:05:58):
I I I think it's licensing deals. I think it's partner deals. I think if you can have this thing that has Apple Music live concerts that you can attend from anywhere in the world that's compelling. And it's not something that you see, you won't see places and do it, you don't see meta doing it. So it's, it's Apple's ability to have partners in media and entertainment that they already have relationships with. And if they can bring that to the headset, I think, you know, that's something they can do that others don't do or haven't been able to do.
Andy Ihnatko (01:06:22):
Yeah. They, they can also, they can also leverage the iPhone into a v vr, basically make every iPhone into a vr cap in a 3D capture device. I mean, the things that are being done with neural radiance fields right now that if just by virtue of the fact that you have an iPhone, you don't, maybe even, you don't own an Apple VR headset, but the fact that you were shooting shooting someone's birthday with an iPhone and you knew, and you pushed you, you on the, on the camera carousel, now there's, there's a Nerf panel on there that through whatever elephant magic they would do to, to make this happen. You, you're now, as you move around, it's capturing more details from there. And now when you share something either via FaceTime or just via via Apple photos, you get this new experience, there's a, it, it could really ex let, let's just say it could make the green bubble bubble even even more small, even more nasty, even more egregious saying, oh, you can't, like you, you can't, you can't join the VR chat. Okay, that's fine. Enjoy your emoji, Jason.
Leo Laporte (01:07:22):
I also will caution people that one of the things that happens with these, every time people put 'em on for the first time, they get so excited. And so, you know, jazzed, and this is the fu just like the segues, this is the future. This is the future, oh my God, then, but wait a month and see if they're still using it a month later. Because every case in my experience a month later, it's like I'm back to watching the tv. Oh, one other caveat, as long as I'm being cranky, those of you history buffs who are running out now to download 1776 should probably be made aware that Andy is talking about a 1972 musical version of Yes. The History <laugh> that <laugh> that I, you know, I haven't seen it, Andy. So maybe it is the best movie ever made.
Andy Ihnatko (01:08:15):
I wouldn't say it's, it's one of my favorite. I wouldn't say it is the one of the best movies ever made. You have, you have to get around the fact that it is a singing and dancing musical about the founding Fathers. But yeah, the, it's, it's, it is intense. I'll, I'll I'll, the 32nd thing I will promote with is that they got the original cast from the Broadway production that did like hundreds and hundreds of performers performances. Each one of these actors knows this role and has dug into it. And by get, by the time you get halfway through, you're wondering, is this America thing ever going to happen or not? Oh
Leo Laporte (01:08:47):
Wow. So wow.
Andy Ihnatko (01:08:48):
Leo Laporte (01:08:49):
Andy Ihnatko (01:08:49):
Good. Or more, and also also, is this America thing
Leo Laporte (01:08:51):
Ever gonna happen If
Andy Ihnatko (01:08:53):
You're, if you're, if you're a friend of, if you're a friend of if you're a fan of friends, you'll recognize the fountain from the opening credits of friends. They are. You, you will actually see <laugh> Ben Franklin John Adams and Richard Henry Lee, like doing a big number around that fountain
Leo Laporte (01:09:08):
Go. Well, that makes it worth it worth the price of admission. I will be watching it tonight giving, because you've mentioned it before and I've always meant to, and thank you for reminding me. And also to, to Zach and everybody at nine to five Mac well done not falling for this, the tweet that says, first real world, look at Apple's mixed reality headset parts from a Twitter user with a protected account who has Mac Rumors says a track record for sharing accurate information about Apple components. Although somebody in the comments here at Mac rumors points out that this picture of the microphone in the so-called VR headset looks suspiciously exactly like the picture of the microphone in the home pod. I mean, maybe they would reuse the part, why would you make a new microphone? But I don't know if we've learned anything anyway from these pictures. So there you,
Andy Ihnatko (01:10:07):
There, this is around the time where if they, if they were, if they had hard, if they were starting to manufacture hardware, this is around the time that at least we were willing to entertain the notion that were starting to see products leak from the supply. Somebody in
Leo Laporte (01:10:17):
China will have taken a picture and put it on their protected Twitter account. And so
Jason Snell (01:10:22):
Yeah. And and my understanding is that the hardware is done. So the that would be, that that absolutely seems to be the case. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (01:10:29):
Yeah. Okay. we have been told that you will have to carry a battery in your pocket. Right. It's, it's plugs into a sta separate battery that, that will
Jason Snell (01:10:40):
Make sense. I mean, get a, get a special shirt with a battery pocket. <Laugh> Go ahead.
Zac Hall (01:10:43):
Apple will have accessories, they'll have a sock version, you know. Oh Lord.
Andy Ihnatko (01:10:47):
It'll battery sock your neck warm. Right.
Jason Snell (01:10:49):
<Laugh> battery belt. I,
Leo Laporte (01:10:50):
I don't wanna be that guy, but I think I am that this thing is a
Andy Ihnatko (01:10:53):
Tupac edition is Destiny. I'm
Leo Laporte (01:10:55):
Getting the
Zac Hall (01:10:55):
Air bass
Leo Laporte (01:10:56):
Version. Horrible.
Jason Snell (01:10:58):
I mean, you, you might be right, Leo, but I will say, I mean, you talk about people getting sick, but you know, part of that is the lag. And if the apple does a good job with the lag, they might not make people sick and the weight of the battery, like I think that the, having a battery thing snaking off of this thing is super inelegant and I kind of can't believe that that's really gonna be the case. However, the counter-argument is they tried it with the battery on the unit and it made it so miserable to wear. Nobody wants to wear it. And they, when and when they took it off, the, the average length of time people could wear it really increased, which would address your whole, nobody wants to wear it for more than 15 minutes. Sure. So maybe that's a sign of them making a good trade off, which is, it's, it's less elegant, but it's more usable. Yeah. Who knows. Yeah.
Andy Ihnatko (01:11:38):
Yeah. That's a, that's, it's an interesting design problem where once you, once you start off with the first thing you write on the whiteboard, after all, if you get all the data from r and d saying, okay, we are free, there is no way for anybody to wear this and look stylish, dignified, elegant, or anything. So we can make it big. We can put antennas up there, we can have wires hanging off it. None of it matters because any, if you anybody had dignity with this, they would not be using this outside away from a power outlet. Anyway. I will,
Leo Laporte (01:12:04):
I will point out that the segue, which was in fact very useful fun to ride died because you looked like an absolute on it. And then I would submit Google Glass probably died for the same reason. Absolutely. So let's not deprecate.
Andy Ihnatko (01:12:18):
Well also, also, cuz you had to, you walk around with a camera with, which didn't have a light on it to say, oh, by the way, I'm, I'm actually, I could be recording it. Yeah.
Jason Snell (01:12:24):
Only use your VR headset in the, in the privacy of your own home. But no one's, nobody knows your look like a dummy. Yeah.
Andy Ihnatko (01:12:30):
Please wear pants. I cannot as enough put on some pants.
Zac Hall (01:12:35):
Well, the, it reminds
Leo Laporte (01:12:36):
Of meta, they've avoided this. You don't have legs, so there's no issue. Right,
Jason Snell (01:12:39):
Zac Hall (01:12:40):
<Laugh>, sorry, it reminds me of an an an iPad keynote where Steve Jobs wrote a note from a customer who said I was sitting in a cafe with my iPad and it got a girl interested in me. And that's what I call a magical device. I don't think it's gonna happen with this No pet
Jason Snell (01:12:51):
Set. No,
Zac Hall (01:12:53):
Leo Laporte (01:12:54):
Women, it's not a, it's not a chick magnet as they say. Although if Apple would offer chip chick magnet stickers to put on the front of it, that might help.
Andy Ihnatko (01:13:03):
The only problem is you, you may not, depending on how like they get these external cameras running, it's possible you're not even gonna know when like gener generation Z people and Zoomers are making fun of you and posting talks about you at That's right. Your expense. That's
Zac Hall (01:13:15):
True. Or you miss the connection. Yeah. You missed your love of your life walks by cuz you're in the yard and you miss her <laugh>.
Leo Laporte (01:13:19):
Star Wars boy is coming back baby, and he's wearing a headset. All right. Okay. I think we've talked about this enough. We have till June. I've been thinking about, cuz we talked last week about this rumor that the m there'd be an M three 15 inch MacBook error and so forth. And you made a really good point, I think was Jason that Apple's not gonna clog up wwdc if they're gonna release these, they're gonna spend all the time talking about these headsets. Yeah. And laptops will be somewhere else. So
Jason Snell (01:13:53):
That's why, that's why they're these rumors that maybe there are M three MacBook errors coming sooner than we would think. If you combine it with the idea that that the old air last year, which came out in July, but was announced in June, was actually really late. And that they may already be on to the next cycle. You know, I I always thought that that was a little bit wild as an idea. But you probably, if you've got that product, you probably either want to, you know, introduce it after WW g c or before wwdc. Cuz I have a hard time imagining if there's a new headset at, at the conference that there's gonna be room for what is basically a consumer product. Right. Maybe the Mac Pro could be announced there, but MacBook Air, there's gotta be a better venue for it than that.
Leo Laporte (01:14:34):
Yeah. You had actually a great piece in Mac World about this. And it sounds like you think that it's probably the Apple's gonna go to now it's gonna be a TikTok yearly cycle for the M processors.
Jason Snell (01:14:49):
It it, you know, mark Irman made this weird statement that Apple has declared, they want to be on an annual cycle for the, for the the chips, which I don't think Apple's ever said anything like that. And, and there's been no evidence to that. But, but at the same time, they do it for the phone. Right. And so I could see them saying, we also want to do this for the M series. And, and my thought was maybe the M base model M series comes out every year, but they take the desktop computers and they sort of like interleave them where like each of, each of the set of desktop computers have the pro and the max and Ultra chips, those get updated every two years. But the air gets a new chip every year. And certainly the M three feels like it might be a bigger step forward than the M two was because of the T S M C is gonna do a die shrink down to three nanometers, which means you're gonna get the, the energy efficiency and the speed boost and all of that.
And then also they're gonna skip probably a generation of the Aeries or, you know, we may see that they're not gonna always debut their brand new chip architecture with the phone. They might actually do it with the Mac sometimes. And that would be, there's no reason that they couldn't, they couldn't do that. In fact, who's to say that in the end, they even use, I mean, they would like to use the same cores in all their products, but like, if they've got a GPU core that's a little hungrier, maybe it goes in the Mac and it doesn't go in the iPhone. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I, there's a lot of possibility there and we, we just haven't seen enough cycles of this for us to know exactly what Apple's trying to go for. And it all got muddied by I think the, the pandemic and the factory show shutdowns and things like that. But M three sooner rather than later. I'm kind of getting into it now. I think, I think it's gonna be a big step forward for them.
Leo Laporte (01:16:29):
I, I loved your piece. Apple is about to unleash the full power of the Mac. We're gonna see what the, the Mac can really do when it's finally set free. Set my Mac free, please.
Jason Snell (01:16:42):
Yeah. I, I don't, I don't write those headlines, but they're
Leo Laporte (01:16:45):
Effective. Oh, I like it. That made me happy. You, you, you got me excited. <Laugh>. They
Jason Snell (01:16:49):
Keep changing them too. There's s e o going on. Look, Macel does what it's gonna do. I I don't, I don't work there anymore. I'm just like, those Apple designers who left. It's like, I don't know. I don't,
Leo Laporte (01:16:58):
I just read column, say headline. I write some words. They put a thing on top. That's all. They put a thing on
Jason Snell (01:17:02):
Top. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (01:17:02):
Yeah. I read a
Andy Ihnatko (01:17:03):
Boring to our many conscripted conscripted ab headline testers.
Leo Laporte (01:17:06):
Yes. So they've changed. They've changed. You know what, it's, I was searching for it and I couldn't find it. I guess that's because they changed the headline <laugh>. Yeah. They keep changing the headlines. It's, it's wild stuff. <Laugh>. That explains it. I was gonna, where is, I know I read this. I know. All right, let's take a little break. Zach Hall, great to have you. Nine to five Mac. Appreciate your being here with your Falcon Heavy. And, and I'm talking about the rocket that's sitting on top of his Mac Classic. That's a good combination. I like that. Is there, isn't there a launch John today there's always a launch. Now they're doing a resupply. It's a day of the week. Yeah. Every day of the week. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what's not every day of the week, it's Pie Day.
Happy pie day, everybody. 3.14159. acknowledge. That's all I can say. <Laugh> our show today brought to you by Zip Recruiter. Ooh, we know intimately here at TWiT what it's like when you get you get notice from an employee. They said, well, I'm booming on to Grainier Pastures. It's been great. Thank you very much. Bye-Bye. And then, and then we look at each other and go, oh, we're gonna have to fill that position. Oh, we're all gonna have to work extra hours to get this stuff done. Happened. Most recently, when our wonderful Ashley left she didn't wanted such a long commute. She found somewhere closer to home. We, we had, we needed somebody in our continuity department. And what did we do? We went immediately to Zip Recruiter. Zip Recruiter is where we do all our hiring and it really works. And I'll tell you something you know, Lisa gets the email and we're at breakfast.
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 It was, it was pretty, it was so good that Lisa was kind of, you know, the next day going, oh, these, they're all so good. I don't know <laugh>, which one should I, which one should I hire? It really is an amazing experience. If you're hiring for your team, you know, I know it's a tough market right now. Unemployment's very low. There's no matter what industry you're in though, if you need to hire, ZipRecruiter is a place to go to break. Try it for free. You'll find those candidates fast. You'll find the right candidate, the right person's out there, the person who can make your company break to keep your team growing strong. And you can try it for free right now. Ziprecruiter.Com/M B R E A k. It's really an amazing system that I recommend 100% break. We thank them not only for helping us hire great people, but for sponsoring the show and and, and lending us your, their financial support.
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You get ad free versions of all the shows. You get access to the best darn social network in the world. The Club TWiT Discord and that. I tell you why. It's, I realize why it's good cuz everybody paid seven bucks a month to be there, so nobody's gonna mess around. Right? It's a very exciting, fun place. The other reason it's great, it's all people like you, you're it's friends. You also get the TWI plus feed with shows we don't put out in public and titled Linux show and the Gizz Fizz and Stacy's book club, lots of events. Twit.Tv/Club twit. It would help us immensely if you'd become a member of the club. And we'd love to have you there. Seven bucks a month. Twit TV / clubtwit. Thank you Jason Snell for pitching in with an animated gif. That's, that's what makes the club what it is today. You gotta do it <laugh>. You gotta do it <laugh> Joy.
Jason Snell (01:23:03):
I know the rules. I've read the room.
Leo Laporte (01:23:04):
I know it is. Yeah. <laugh> that is the only bad thing about the Discord is so many animated gifs. Like, there, there's not, there's <laugh>, there's not enough room for text in here. <Laugh> <laugh>. Alright. All right. Yes. By the way, Patrick Delehanty, our engineer says the gifts inside are epic. So come on in. Anyway, I just wanted to say a thank you to all of our members. We really appreciate your support. Thank you. Clubbers. I need a name. I don't wanna call you Twits. I need a name. Twitters No, can't do that. Hmm. Hmm.
 Jason Calis maybe in a, I had some mixed feelings about having him on Twitter on Sunday to talk about Silicon Valley Bank. Others shared that. And so we didn't put him in the main show we put him on afterwards. But one of the things I wanted to ask him, you might remember when Elon first bought TWiT, he started calling himself Chief TWiT a moniker, which I have had for more than 12 years in many of my socials and, and so forth. It's on my business card for crying out loud. And I just, and then he stopped doing it a few days later. He just dropped it. And I think I just, I thought maybe cuz Jason was in the room that maybe he said something to Elon and I asked him, he said, well, I can't talk about that, but I think maybe I owe you Jason. So there you go. Debt, debt fulfilled. Thank you for getting him off of my handle. Shareholders meeting this ye they, you know, they do it every year. The shareholders were meek mild. There were no, as far as I know, there were no rebellious shareholders. And you might look at the headline here saying, apple shareholders approve 40% pay cut for Tim Cook and say, well, that sounds pretty rebellious. But he wanted it. He asked for it. Right, Zach, that this wasn't, this wasn't a surprise.
Andy Ihnatko (01:25:04):
That is correct.
Leo Laporte (01:25:05):
And it makes sense. You know we praised Andy, I think you praised another c e o who instead of firing people took a cut and pay. I think that's kind of what's going on, right? Is that rather than letting people go one way to be fiscally responsible is to take a pay cut.
Andy Ihnatko (01:25:23):
Yeah. Also, the, the, you're, you're making a lot of money with the, with the value of the company itself. So it's, it's, it's, it's not nothing. But the, the fact that there's so many CEOs that are not even willing to take a symbolic gesture that they are so disconnected and 50 million, that's a lot of salaries that could be protected.
Leo Laporte (01:25:40):
Elon got $50 billion last year from Tesla, just to put this in perspective. Yeah. <laugh> cook got in 2021 and 2022, a hundred million dollars, which is an awful lot of money. So when you say he got cut by half <laugh> still 49 million ain't bad. He's
Andy Ihnatko (01:26:00):
He's still, he's still buying the name brand cereal. The kind of comes in boxes, not the kind that comes in plastic bags.
Jason Snell (01:26:05):
He's not clipping coupons, right? No, not yet. No. I mean, he might, but only because he's, it's fun for him. Which actually that does sound like Tim Cook. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I think he probably a coupon clipper. I guarantee
Leo Laporte (01:26:15):
You he's a, look how he dresses. He's, he's definitely a coupon cutter. Yeah.
Andy Ihnatko (01:26:22):
Remember that
Leo Laporte (01:26:23):
Is off the rack from Cole's. I swear to god,
Andy Ihnatko (01:26:26):
Steve, Steve, do you remember how Steve Jobs is a, a famous story about how he delighted in scamming the cafeteria <laugh> out of, out of like, they take it outta my pay, but my pay is only a dollar of dollar a year. It's like <laugh>. It's like, I don't know where the money's coming from, but it's great.
Jason Snell (01:26:40):
And, and of course I, it's a charming story. And of course the reality is, is that there's somebody in the accounting group who actually monitors all of Steve's things and was like, oh, geez. And was counteracting it and like, adjusting and like doing all this work. And Steve's like, ha ha, it's a joke. He
Leo Laporte (01:26:54):
Probably was making hours of work for some poor accounting
Jason Snell (01:26:57):
Person. Undoubtedly. It was not just one of these situations where it just, nobody knows where the money went. It's like somebody knows Steve, somebody is working on that very hard,
Leo Laporte (01:27:05):
Oh, can you transfer that money out of payroll and put that over to Yeah, I can see that out.
Andy Ihnatko (01:27:12):
So Jason, you're, you're saying that they, that they were passing the cost onto us, the consumers that we were hoping to pay that man's burritos. I,
Jason Snell (01:27:20):
I think they went to the couch where they kept their billions in cash. And then every now and then somebody would go in there and pull out a, you know, a large numbered bill and then just apply that to Steve's
Leo Laporte (01:27:31):
Jason Snell (01:27:31):
Much cafeteria, how much
Leo Laporte (01:27:32):
Could the lunch have been cost. You know? Really? Seriously. Yeah. That's like a microsecond of interest on their
Andy Ihnatko (01:27:38):
Well, he, you know, he cash, he did, he did a, he did ask for the extra guac, and that isn't,
Jason Snell (01:27:42):
That is an upseller <laugh>. But isn't that, isn't that the way, I mean, the bill, a billionaire founder who gets off on the idea that he's getting away with free pudding. I love that idea, but at the same time, like you don't become a billionaire. This is the thing about, like, the baseball owners are complaining that players are getting paid too much by other owners. Right. And it's like, boy, yeah. Never get between a billionaire and any amount of money that they could be cheap about. True. Because that's why True. They're a billionaire. True. Yeah. The
Leo Laporte (01:28:06):
Cheapest people I've ever met. Yeah.
Jason Snell (01:28:08):
Leo Laporte (01:28:09):
Jason Snell (01:28:09):
Yeah. So Tim Cook, I mean, I also think Tim Cook is just that guy, right? Like, I, I have never met him. I've only seen him like I've been near him, but I've never met him. But you just, you get the sense that he's kind of a, a sensible guy. Yeah. He's probably like, yeah, give me, I don't want the best thing. Give me the, like the, the, the midrange of a thing and like, could we save a little money there that it just seems like he's that guy. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (01:28:31):
<Laugh>. I, and he's already said what he's gonna give some of the money to his nephew, right?
Jason Snell (01:28:37):
And then the rest will
Leo Laporte (01:28:39):
Be a charity. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not like he's <laugh>. I mean, it's not like he needs it. I mean, honestly, I could live in 4 million Easy a year <laugh>. Sure, yeah. One 10th,
Andy Ihnatko (01:28:49):
Half that in cash.
Leo Laporte (01:28:50):
Yeah. Yeah. Alright, so I don't know. This is from Bloomberg and I don't know if it's caused for concern or not. Apple's new challenge, a wave of key executives leaving the company. Mark Germond writing last week, an unprecedented wave of executive departures about a hu a dozen high ranking executives, most of them, not SVPs, but just below Senior vice president, many of them vice presidents some of the most, Gurman says some of the most important figures at Apple, responsible for day-to-day operations in industrial design, the online store information systems, cloud hardware, software, privacy, sales, subscription services, procurement. A far higher amount of turnover than we've seen in recent memory Cause for concern? Or is it just people wanna spend more time with their money?
Andy Ihnatko (01:29:46):
<Laugh>. I I think that there's, there comes a time, especially at Apple when you realize that you've gone as far as you're gonna go, there are a lot of people whose brains are wired up such that it doesn't matter that they have this amazing position at one of the most influential and famous companies tech companies in the world. It's that I'm never, I'm never going to be able to run, I I'm not gonna be running a show at this point. And sometimes there's so much cross pollination inside inside that culture that it's like I could spend, I could be making just as much money sitting on the boards of other people's companies that I can actually having to deal with the argument about whether or not we should actually be shipping VR glasses. And I'm now, I'm now 43 years old. I would like to be able to play with my Legos that've been boxed boxed up in my closet. Un un unmade. I don't think this is a really big deal. It, it wasn't, it was Ingerman's newsletter not as like a feature article, which as our, our friend Renee Richie pointed out that that's, he, he's a, he's a great source for all kinds of stories. There's a reason why he's puts some stuff in the newsletter and some stuff as like feature articles.
Leo Laporte (01:30:51):
He's speaking more as an analyst here than he would be as a reporter.
Andy Ihnatko (01:30:54):
Yeah. But it, it, but it, but it's, it is interesting. It's not, it's not, it's not as interesting as what's happening at Google where you have like, I can't remember her name, but 20 one of the earliest employees at Google finished her career as the c e o of YouTube. I'm sorry, Campbell. Susan
Leo Laporte (01:31:09):
Would just,
Andy Ihnatko (01:31:10):
Thank you, Susan. Just keep, thank you very much. That's, that's, then you get, you have a problem where she's only spent the last nine years at YouTube. She's just such an intellect. But also some, someone who understands how Google works, understands what it's good at, what it's bad at, what its priorities should be, what its priorities could be. So when you have, when someone like that leaves, that is a brain drain. And even when you're replacing it with somebody who's been at Google since 2007, 2009, I think that's, that's a brain drain at Apple. That's really hard to do because the people who make it up to the very, very top levels, those are the people that have been born, they were born and bred in the Apple Petri dish. They, they were raised and, and trained in the Apple culture that that Steve created, that Steve groomed Tim Cook for. They're making sure that there's always a legacy plan, so that whatever it is that makes Apple, apple will continue through changes in leadership. So this is not something to really be worried about.
Zac Hall (01:32:08):
Yeah. There's kind of a scale. It's have you heard of this person's name before? If not, can you find past references to them in, in, in press? If not, then, you know, it's, it's maybe just normal churn. I don't have a lot of data to compare to other years, you know, but I, I think as a writer, you, you do want to make what you're writing sound like it matters. So there's Yeah.
Leo Laporte (01:32:32):
Idea. That's a good point. Yeah, yeah,
Zac Hall (01:32:34):
Yeah. Because it is new. It is non, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Leo Laporte (01:32:37):
Apple stock price, he says, I don't think this is accurate, but he says Apple's stock fell 30% last year following three years of major gains. I don't follow Apple stock price really closely, but that is one reason we talk about that because employees are often compensated in stock. I think 80% of Tim Cook's compensation will be stock. So the stock price becomes extremely important.
Jason Snell (01:33:07):
I, I, I'm, I'm with Zach about these, these lower level people. I'm not sure whether this is normal churn or not, or, but I I think that we've, we've been saying for years now that brain drain is a, a potential killer for Apple. And because a, as mark, I think really pointed out very well, separate from these losses is an executive team that's all about the same age. They've all been there for 20 years. They're all incredibly rich on Apple stock Yeah. At this point, right? Yeah. And, and you do wonder, oh, right, well, what's the next generation of leadership? And the risk is if you've got people who are all in their, like, like in their fifties and sixties and they've made a lot of money and they've been there a very long time, and they're very senior, not only are they not gonna be there that much longer, but who is coming up behind them?
And if they feel stifled inside Apple and they've also made a lot of money, maybe they get out of there. And that's the real risk. Because the other factor here that we all have seen happen is Apple is such a very particular culture that you kind of can't import. There's some jobs that you can, but there are a lot of jobs. You can't just import a senior executive from somewhere else in the valley or even somewhere else on planet Earth. You kind of need to bake them inside of the apple, at least for a while, if not for decades. And so if you, if you're losing your top level just because they're gonna age out at some point, and then the level down below them, there's this question of like, are they ever gonna be given the reins? And you, could you risk a scenario where you lose a lot of your best people and you can't replace them, or you have to go outside to replace them and risk damaging your corporate culture that you work so hard to build. I do think, you know, they're a victim of their own success, essentially. But I think that that's true, that it's a, it's a major risk. And I wonder if they're new head of people who also is a, not an Apple person, somebody brought in from the outside, if, if, if that's job one for them, is, is retention. Because at some point, you know, you will lose your stars if you can't give them more to do.
Andy Ihnatko (01:35:09):
Yeah, yeah. Think, think about with what's happening in retail, where they hired in some people who were superstars at at Burberry and other, and other organizations. The question is, do these people, do these people find themselves wanting to make, live out the rest of their careers at Apple? Or do they serve a certain purpose at Apple? Until Apple has assimilated with the knowledge and expertise they have, do they get this thing launched? And then at some point they realize that, again, there's not a whole lot left for me to do. I'm make, I can, I'm, I'm fully vested. I've, I've completed the, the terms of my of my stock my, my, my stock dividend. I can just simply leave here and with 50 million in my pocket it's, I'm, I need reminds me. It'd be interesting to follow up on all, what really impressed me when the first news broke about Apple's car project was the number of high pro profile executives at other companies that Apple managed to bring in.
I mean the, the, the slide deck they must have presented to saying, I know that you are one of the top people at B M W. We would like you to abandon this career track you've been on with this one company for 20 years and start a secret project that we can not e that may not even turn into an actual product. Would you like to join us? How many we, I know that they've showed a lot of those people, but have they managed to create a, a world in which people who have experiences and perspectives that were not grown at Apple can find themselves productive and listened to at Apple? Or, once again, we just, you're just here to tell us where to buy tires. Once we've got a source for tires, you can go,
Leo Laporte (01:36:37):
Well, apple will be telling you which iPhone you can get soon. They've introduced something called Shop with a Specialist. You can connect directly to somebody who will say, you should buy the most expensive iPhone <laugh>. This, they must think that people are a little confused, or maybe this is because people don't go into the store anymore, or they don't
Andy Ihnatko (01:37:02):
Like, and people can't go into a store.
Leo Laporte (01:37:03):
Yeah. And they don't like the service that the third party, you know, carrier stores are providing. So maybe Apple says, well, we should make a better way to buy a phone at home. You think that's the reason for this?
Zac Hall (01:37:16):
It's gonna be a really good experience with the headset when you go to buy an iPhone.
Leo Laporte (01:37:21):
<Laugh>. Oh, maybe that's, it's all for VR now, right? So if you go to shop / buy dash iPhone, then you can just, I'm not gonna click this cuz I don't want to embarrass myself. What should I, is the yellow phone faster? You can get some picks. What do you think? They, I don't know. Zack, come on. You, you're a reporter. C Call these guys. Find out what they tell you. Do they just uni unilaterally universally recommend the iPhone 14 Pro, or they sometimes say, you know, an SE would be right for you.
Zac Hall (01:37:59):
I mean, there are reports at the, I there are reports at the iPhone 14 non perversion isn't selling as well as Yeah. Maybe expected. Especially the plus version. Right. a little bit reminiscent of the iPhone 10 s and 10 R cycle where they, they needed to improve sales was way unexpected, you know, in terms of what they were, they were seeing way below what expected, and they did a number of things in the store and online and elsewhere to it. It was like, we've got six tricks we've been waiting to, to, to do, to roll out. We're gonna do 'em all at once to improve sales. This is, reminds me of that, but it's just one thing. So, you know, it's something that they probably have in mind anyway, but a pretty good time to roll it out. If they are trying to prove sales of, of lower phones,
Andy Ihnatko (01:38:40):
They must, they must have some data about how many people are going to the online Apple store, but leaving something in their cart or spending a lot of time looking at models, but not Oh, yeah. Closing the deal. Yeah, I thought, look, reading the, the press release from Apple, I think it's significant that they are specifically mentioning this, that this is something for people, for customers in the us There's no even hint as to at any point even expanding it to Canada or other countries. If so, it would be an interesting data point about how they realize that they're not gonna have Apple stores all over the world. They wanna make sure that they can give like white glove not sales pressure, but at least that sort of Apple store experience to everybody. So I, I think Zach has a point here. This is, they've seen where there is something where they're, they're just not closing the deal and they're thinking that it's probably not that expensive to get this up and running and see if that he that helps any,
Zac Hall (01:39:31):
And, and personally I would be terrified to use this service. It's just not, and my comfort zone. What I do like is Apple is Apple's business chat feature where you can iMessage essentially with companies and it's, that is awesome. I I talked to my phone carrier through that service, and it's always a great experience. You know, there, there's, so that's interesting.
Leo Laporte (01:39:52):
Oh, oh, you didn't do it on the Apple page to your carrier. You went to your carrier page to talk to your carrier?
Zac Hall (01:39:58):
You, you I go to Spotlight search on the iPhone. I type in T-Mobile, and then there's a chat icon. Oh, interesting icon. And then I talk to, yeah, it's basically their chat support. But it's, it's, you view it through Apple's iMessage service, essentially. Oh. and, and Apple uses that as well, which is pretty good. And, and you could say, well, what's after that video? And, and you could see maybe them doing this, or at least for their own stuff and sort of elevating the chat experience to be video experience. It's still something I wouldn't wanna do, but I could imagine it, it, I could imagine family saying, you know, Hey, use this service. Don't, don't ask me these questions. Ask Apple all these questions. Yes. And they'll help you out.
Leo Laporte (01:40:34):
That's who really loves this. <Laugh> us. Don't ask me, just call Apple. I maybe this is a, a kind of preparatory to a VR experience where you could kind of walk into an Apple store.
Andy Ihnatko (01:40:51):
I doubt it. I mean, the three, $3,000 before you can even start shopping <laugh>, if any, if any company's gonna do that, it would be Apple. But I don't know. <Laugh>, you're, you're not walking out with an $8 pair of I iPod socks. No, I
Leo Laporte (01:41:03):
Have to say,
Andy Ihnatko (01:41:04):
With that transaction,
Leo Laporte (01:41:05):
Microsoft released the HoloLens for a long time in the Microsoft store. Remember those? They would have a HoloLens tryout sing that you could go try 'em out. I am sure Apple will do something like that with the VR headset. Yeah. You can go to the Apple store and
Andy Ihnatko (01:41:18):
Try it.
Zac Hall (01:41:19):
I would also say separate this from iPhone sales. Currently, you can look at this as they're, they're about six months away from the, the next iPhone. Iphone 15. And so this is the time you'd want to release this, not then. And then they'll have this as an option when the next iPhones
Jason Snell (01:41:32):
Work out the bugs when sales Yeah. Are low. I mean, I don't know all those yellow iPhones that they're gonna be pushing now. <Laugh>. That, that's really important. Actually, I, I
Andy Ihnatko (01:41:40):
Actually, I'm sorry. You, you joke. But right here in the head, right here in the headlines of customers there you go. Right in the right in the subed, apple introduces shop with a special of video customers in the US can now connect with an Apple special. So please shop the iPhone line lineup, including the iPhone 1414 plus available today in an all new yellow color me
Jason Snell (01:41:59):
<Laugh> Marketing 1 0 1 right there. Remember, by the way, I just, I find determining when Apple actually makes an attempt to try sales things. Yeah. Because there was a time not that long ago, like four years ago, where iPhones just sold themselves. They didn't have to. Yeah. And, you know, and Angela Errands was entire, she brought in for Burberry to sort of make it an experience and we're gonna plant some trees and it's gonna be a community space. And then they had that sh that drop off after the brand new iPhone, you know, went really big the first year, but then it started to tail off. And, and since then, and anybody who works in Apple retail can tell you this, but since then Apple's been like, oh yeah, sales techniques, let's try that. Let's actually try to sell our products. Can we push products and get, and, and since then, it, it's just amazing to watch a company that came so far just on, like laying their products out and saying have at it. And now is actually making an effort to find ways to boost sales. But they, they are, the last four years has really been Apple's retail arm, trying hard. I actually like working to sell product in a way that they never did before.
Leo Laporte (01:43:03):
And good news, you don't have to put your pants on because you will not be on camera. Apple reassures you. That don't worry. And it looks like the whole idea of this is that the salesperson can share their screen so they can sh they can say, well, look at this, look at that. So there's, you know, it's kind of an interesting idea. If somebody does this call in and let us know. And I'd love to get your experience. I can't really do it on the air because I'd have to say ahead of time, may we record this and all of this stuff. And, you know, I just, I by then, you know, they said, well, you need to talk to pr. Bye <laugh>. And I don't want to do that. Good. I, you know, another way to buy an iPhone, not a bad thing, of course, because I just bought the new big home pods. Apple is now rumored to be working on new big home pods with their own display, which I would actually have preferred, but, okay. Ming Chio says the display won't be here till next year based on the third party supply chain companies such as tne, ma, Chinese display manufacturer. It wouldn't look like the existing HomePod. It would feature a seven inch display. Kind of more like a Nest hub or an Echo show.
Jason Snell (01:44:18):
Yeah. Which I think is smart. Yeah, it's a good category. I've 1 0 1 for a while. I actually just retired my Echo show because I got tired of Alexa saying, by the way, I can do this thing. Like,
Leo Laporte (01:44:28):
Shut up. Oh, the UPS talk about upsell. Holy.
Jason Snell (01:44:31):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and believe it or not Google much. I, so I switched to a, a Nest hub and it's much more pleasant. But all while I'm thinking to myself, I really would like Apple to make a product in this category. Cuz there really is value. I mean, I don't think it's gonna sound like the big HomePod. It's probably gonna sound more like the HomePod Mini, but I think this is a great category. I love having a little smart speaker in my kitchen. I use it to add things to my shopping list. We use it for named timers when we're cooking. You can do it all hands free.
Leo Laporte (01:44:57):
Well, and you put Apple TV on it. You can have, I mean, that's how I will watch the news in the kitchen is I'll put it on the purple device. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah,
Jason Snell (01:45:05):
Exactly. Yeah, exactly right. So there's a lot of the application for these things, either by your nightstand or in your kitchen or whatever. And I, I'm surprised Apple has has taken so long to get here because the first time I, I used the first Echo show, I was like, oh yeah, there's value in just showing some data. And Apple has built, like, they've got watch apps, they've got widgets, they've got TV os they've got so many different ways to show you little bits of information on top of just Siri that it's like a screen would really help here, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, like even Siri on the HomePod, it's sort of like, it's, it's, it's hobbled by the fact that on the iPhone it can like say, why don't I show you this thing? And on the HomePod it's like, sorry, I can't do it. I give up. And so having a screen to display stuff on it, just, it's a good category. I, I wish Apple had been in it for years, but I'm very hopeful about this product cuz I, I do like the smart speaker with a screen. I think it's a good thing. Yeah,
Andy Ihnatko (01:46:00):
I'm with you. It does, it does, it does change your relationship with it too. Like, if you have just the speaker that you can just put anywhere, that's fine. But it's this, this disembodied voice, which means it's very easy to ignore that you own this thing. Whereas if you get into the, the habit if, if I have a, I have a a Google Smart screen like on my kitchen counter when I get in or when I'm, when I'm making breakfast, I will be looking at it all the time just to get the time, you know, and just to get the weather, not the, yeah. I'm not that it's the most critical part of my day, but it is a touchstone to remind myself that this thing exists. And as a result, I use it a lot more. And just as you say, Jason, the ability to, to get information via audio, but then I will give you more information if you look at the display.
But I'm not going to talk for three minutes explaining about what the air quality index is. That there's a cold front that's approaching from Buffalo that we could expect a dusting distribute. No, but if I tell me, I tell me I'm gonna need a jacket, but if I wanna look at the three day forecast, I can just turn over this way. Apple has to do something, I think, to make the HomePod more relevant, to make it more of a, again, it feel, it feels like a hobby right now. They, there's a lot of opportunity for them to make it into a real product.
Leo Laporte (01:47:09):
Zach, are you a, a screen fan?
Zac Hall (01:47:12):
I would like this to exist in the pitch of, it's like an echo show where Google, excuse me, in the Facebook portal, but with FaceTime. That's a pretty good pitch.
Leo Laporte (01:47:21):
Yeah, actually, I used to FaceTime my mom every, every week. She's 90. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, she liked doing it on the iPad, but it was a little complicated. She had to get the iPad in the right, she always answered on the phone by accident, et cetera, et cetera. So I got her a nice big echo show with a nice speaker. And now we just call that way and she far prefers it. And Apple's missing a, a beat here because they could easily, this would be a great FaceTime device. 
Zac Hall (01:47:46):
Right. And they could solve the problem of when you talk to your grandma on FaceTime, usually you get like the, you don't see her face on FaceTime because of the way they're, they're holding it, you know, you see the
Leo Laporte (01:47:55):
Up, she's gonna some on the camera and Yeah.
Zac Hall (01:47:57):
Right, right.
Leo Laporte (01:47:58):
Yeah. This is, this is next to, this is in her bedroom. It's next to her bed. It's right there. I can also, they have things like drop in which FaceTime doesn't have, where I could say, Hey, mom, wake up. Are you there? So I could talk to her directly. There's a lot of nice features, and I think Apple could really take advantage of this. It is odd that they haven't done it yet. One thing I'd love to see Apple do, and honestly, I'm kind of amazed that Google and Amazon haven't done this yet, which is add some of the chat G P t, like AI features, and Siri could be so much smarter. I understand Apple doesn't want, you know, Siri to start saying crazy hallucinatory things. Yeah. But that's an opportunity for Apple to, to kind of reactivate Siri, who, I'm sorry to say seems like the numb skull next to Google assistant <laugh> and Amazon's echo.
Andy Ihnatko (01:48:48):
Yeah. The, the number of times that that <laugh> that, that that apple tells me to, oh, here's, I will, I will look that up for you on Google. Like, okay, I could have done that. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (01:48:59):
That's not helpful. Yeah. You know, here's what I found on the web for that. That's not why I asked you.
Zac Hall (01:49:04):
Siri's very good at things that Siri's very good at.
Leo Laporte (01:49:07):
Yeah. Yeah. Which is very limited, but yeah, she does what she, I don't know. I don't want to hear Rock me Amadeus anymore. I mean, it does sound good on those paired home pods in my, in my living room. There is actually story
Zac Hall (01:49:24):
Falco, big big week for Falcon, big Week
Leo Laporte (01:49:25):
For Falco it's Good's a big week for Falco. There is a Comar in town. There is a story in digit times that Apple is in fact trying to build its AI chops. One of the things that happened when when, you know, chat G p t took the world by Storm is all the other companies Meta and Amazon and Google all said, Hey, we got that. We could do that. And of course, raced to release it. Googles are just about to release its own version of chat, G P T. They've released it to developers and scientists already. <Laugh> Meta didn't wanna release theirs, but it was leaked out. And four Chan got it. And now you can play with that too. Do you think Apple is like everybody else has been doing this? I mean, they've had some really good people working there. Yeah.
Andy Ihnatko (01:50:15):
AB absolutely. And a few years ago, they they they enhanced their own recruitment by finally allowing these people to publish papers on their work, which was part of if you're a researcher, you're not, you're not gonna get your next job if you don't have lots of published papers. So that's, I think the difficulty that a lot of these companies are having Google included, is that, I mean, they're, they're kind of flustered by saying, no, no, we didn't do chat G P T, but we have, we've been doing AI for years and years and years. There are so many features in your phone right now that are powered by artificial intelligence. Just the, one of my favorite examples is just the, the smarts behind getting that getting your your iPhone keyboard working to figure out that, no, you didn't quite hit that letter T, but did you, did you did you intend to hit a y did you intend to hit the letter below it?
And it's not just simply doing statistics on the number, it's, it's basically predictive text, which is Chachi pt, essentially an extension of of the, the basic technology there. All of these companies are saying, look, we, we've been doing this all the time. We just haven't done this half baked chat app that goes nuts and starts doing some, starts doing things. They're so ridiculous that it becomes a week's worth of inventory for late night late night talk show monologues. Yeah. So, I mean Google, I think today just announced that they're putting a whole bunch of ai, it's encouraging them to put some take to move a lot of these AI features out of the lab and into practical products. I Google just said that they're putting a bunch of ai coding tools into their cloud product.
 They are rolling some more AI tools into Google Workspace. And I hope that that's the way things work. I don't, I don't think Apple needs to get into the game where they're saying that they have to say that Here is our chat client. I think what the, what they need to do is next year show off that we've got a, we've got a major new version of Siri without mentioning any technology behind it, but saying that we, you don't have to simply ask a question, it will answer, like, have a, have a conversation and fig, and it will figure out as you go, as you both figure out what it is you actually need to know, and then give you actual practical results they must have. That's
Leo Laporte (01:52:19):
What I wanna te maybe they're chasing though by seeing how it's badly it's gone in some respect. Here's a, somebody in a commenter and Mac, rumors asked Chat G p t to write a press release. This is what it came out with. Apple today announced that Scott Fortal has returned to the company as c e o replacing Johnny Ive, who had replaced Tim Cook just three months ago. The decision to bring back Forestal was made by the board of directors who were dissatisfied with the direction the company was taking under i's leadership. When you can get a AI to give you contractual information like that, I think Apple might think twice. You know, they might say, we don't want, Siri already has a bad reputation. We don't want her announcing that Scott OL's back as c e o. Yeah. what
Andy Ihnatko (01:53:04):
There just, there's just too many half baked, half baked people who, who they, who feel as though we are nobody if we don't have an AI product out on the factory, out on the shop floor right now. And it's kind of, I don't know galling is is not the right word, but like Google's been laying the groundwork for, Hey, we think we, we think that we might have something interesting in our new large language models to that we might be able to roll into a real product, but right now last, but we're gonna spend two or three years showing you the basic research cuz we're trying to figure out A, how, how well it works, B, what the problems with it are, what are, what are the ethical biases are with it? And then finally what, how are people going to be, what's the best way to implement this in a feature that's gonna be relevant to people as opposed to let's have a way that you can do, we can have a, a robot write your Babylon five star Trek Fanfic for you. It's like they've been doing this time. They, they Gould did an entire 40 minute press event on their ai just basically saying, here's something we're doing. But we are doing this slowly and responsibly and release
Leo Laporte (01:54:06):
To slides people with, with unfactual information on it, saying that the James would've discovered an exo planet when it had been done 12 years earlier. Yeah. <laugh>. So that was,
Andy Ihnatko (01:54:17):
Leo Laporte (01:54:17):
That's, that's Little egg on this.
Andy Ihnatko (01:54:18):
That's, that's even, oh, big Egg. Cuz that wasn't, that wasn't just, oh, we did a live demo and it said something wrong. It's like, no, we, we created a, we created a slide that we ch we looked at, we could have proofread and we chose to publish it. Anyway. That is, well, let's keep walking, let's keep walking around this yard till we find her rake, and then let's jump on it with both feet.
Leo Laporte (01:54:37):
That's I just, I, this, it, it could conceivably bring Siri back into the race Right now she's so far behind. I I don't think she's considered a front runner in any respect. I mean
Andy Ihnatko (01:54:50):
One, one of, you know, one of one of iOS and Mako s's biggest and least publicized features is it's automation tools. So imagine if they were to hide all of this, then again, they're not gonna say it's based on chat beat. Oh, here's our large language model. They just simply say, if there's something you would like the Mac to do for you, describe it, you will have a conversation via text or via voice. It will basically show you what it thinks it can do. You can bake corrections to it, and then if you really, really like it, it will add, you can upgrade your own operating system to an extent. Write your own Mac software. If you can simply have a conversation with with Schlomo and it'll do it for you. That's what I'm
Leo Laporte (01:55:27):
Looking say. You're absolutely right. You're smart. Don't say it's artificial intelligence. Don't say it's chat G B T, just it's a new feature. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Zac Hall (01:55:35):
And they, they've also got a feature that is voice control, which is an accessibility feature that's really powerful where you, where, you know, you, you can actually do functions on your Mac without touching the, the mouse and keyboard. More than just doing an individual serial request went off. And I think as we've been on Air chat, g PT four has been announced. Yep. And it does pictures now. So there's that. For, for me, with Apple though, apple hired John, Jean and Andrea, a former Google AI expert several years ago. Right. And we haven't heard much from what's come out of that, and we certainly haven't seen it. Early on there were reports that John Jane Andrews team, he wanted Siri to focus less on getting trivia Right. And knowing facts and expanding its, its domain, just databases of knowledge and, and more more focus, more on just having a a wider, you know, like rearchitecting, how Siri works in general and being able to you know, instead of adding new domains every year, instead broaden Sirius capabilities in general. Sort of, sort of rework how Siri works in general. We just have not seen that yet and seem, you know, we, every year for c it's kind of a feeling of, oh, is this the year we're gonna see the, the big Siri overhaul that's based on those years of work? And it's not even rumored, you know, the, the next big thing for Siri to be able to say activate Siri by just saying Siri and not saying, Hey, before that. And, you know, that's
Leo Laporte (01:56:58):
Bad. That's not idea. That's a bad, she already wakes up way too much. That's,
Zac Hall (01:57:01):
It's, it's not about John Jean Andrew was hired to do. And
Leo Laporte (01:57:04):
So, yeah, look what I've done, I've, I've cut the number of words in half <laugh>. Yeah, yeah. No, that's not
Zac Hall (01:57:10):
So separate from chat G P T and everything. There's gotta be something in the works for Siri in general. I think so,
Leo Laporte (01:57:15):
Yeah. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you're right. That's a very good point. He's senior vice president, machine learning and AI strategy. The other, the other thing to remember is Apple now builds into all of its hardware, iPhone, and Mac, a neurolinguistic processing unit. So yeah, it, it, they've got AI and they've been, you know, spending quite a few transistors on putting AI into all their devices. You know, they gotta, they should, they clearly plan to use it, right?
Jason Snell (01:57:43):
That's their big advantage. And when we say, what should they be doing with ai, one of the things that they've already started to do, because we've seen it with some of the visual models, is make an effort to either help people or just do themselves the work of taking some of the, for example, the open AI models and putting them on the neural engine because that neural engine that's in most modern hardware to a certain degree, they keep increasing the cores, they keep increasing the speed. Like that is their silicon advantage for all of this stuff. So if they can give everybody a leg up to make sure that there's a version that is optimized for Apple silicone then all of that ML stuff is gonna run so much faster and better on Apple hardware, which is just a hu huge boost for their hardware. Even if it's not their software that it's running, it's running on their silicone. And that's a big, that's a big deal,
Andy Ihnatko (01:58:32):
And it's gonna be an even bigger deal if they can get compact versions of those long, large language models that will run completely on device without having to connect to a cloud service. Because if Apple's brand continues to be very, very aggressively, Hey, we, we put privacy first, we put security first. That's something that Google wants to do, everyone else wants to do. But if they simply, if they say that, no, this is our priority that we will not put AI on our device. If it has to connect to a cloud service and it's send your data off the device in order to do it, that is something that they could argue very, very strongly. Of course, the question is just going to be, I think that most people, if you give them if they, if you give them a cloud-based AI service that transforms how they use this device, they're not gonna care if it's on device or not, so long as it is it's responsive. So yeah, it, it ties into their hardware scheme, it ties into their software scheme scheme and obviously ties into their OS scheme. Yeah.
Zac Hall (01:59:24):
Yeah. And, and tj Jason's point about they've, they've got the hardware there. They did tune the neural engine to work with stable diffusion. So that was something that was very, you know, topical and, and they did the work. I think somebody was very interested in doing that, but they, they were able to optimize the neural engine for stable diffusion.
Jason Snell (01:59:39):
I've been using whisper to do podcast transcripts and yeah, you know, it runs okay on the CPU cores, but I'm, and I'm using this excellent c plus plus version that somebody's done, but somebody at Apple ideally should help in generating the version that uses the neural engine. Because if it's flying on my Max studio now on the CPU cores, imagine a version that runs power efficiently on an iPhone so that you can start having like on the fly transcripts of everything anywhere just using the whisper AI model, which is amazingly good. Like, you just need to do the work. And, and I hope Apple does more of that.
Andy Ihnatko (02:00:17):
Yeah. It's, it's just just quickly, it's, it's trans, one of the most transformative features that on, on my my pixel phone is just the ability that we change, just the volume slider has a button underneath it that has closed captions on it, and it means that if you push this button, any audio going through the audio system will be closed, captioned, or even translated. So the, the, the, the idea that if I'm on YouTube and I see a a press conference that's happening in France that, oh, damn, there's no, there's, there's no captions of this. The ability to simp, that's seems like absolute magic that there are no captions provided with this, but I can have this translated for me automatically on device. Those are the things that turn that, that are transformative to how you, not just how you do, how you interact with the device, but how you interact with the world through the device, particularly if you're talking to actual people.
Leo Laporte (02:01:06):
Yeah. It goes both ways. It's one reasons why you'd wanna have a screen on a HomePod, because now with chat G P T four, it's multimodal, which means it can handle images and perhaps through the translation you're talking about, this is from the Verge. It apparently the, it's best at looking at images and then giving you information about it. This is a picture of, can you explain this meme? Sometimes I look at pictures of the earth from space, and I marvel at how beautiful it all is. And chat. G P T four was smart. It says, this meme is a joke that combines two unrelated things, pictures of the earth from space and chicken nuggets. Here's one. What's unusual about this image? The unusual thing about this image is that a man is ironing clothes on an ironing board attached to the roof of a moving taxi spot on chat, G P GBT four.
And this image, what's funny about this image, this image shows a package for a lightning cable adapter with three panels. Panel one, a smartphone with a VGA connector. Oh, it knew it was vga. That's good. The package for the lightning cable with a picture of a VGA cable on it, and a closeup of the VGA connector with a small lightning connector at the end. Oh, the humor in this image comes, I don't want this now comes from the absurdity of plugging a large outdated VGA connector into a small, modern smartphone charging port. It is a lightning connector with a VGA plug on it.
Jason Snell (02:02:31):
We've got our answer for what Apple needs says it's killer app. There's the killer ar glasses for AR glasses. It is, explain the joke to me. Explain the No, you're mean.
Leo Laporte (02:02:42):
No, you're mean. What the hell's going
Jason Snell (02:02:43):
On? Oh, haha. I see your joke. <Laugh>. Ha haha ha.
Andy Ihnatko (02:02:49):
But there's are, there's, but, but, but it's, it is, I mean, it's, it's a multimodal stuff, which Google's been talking about for a couple years now. That's that can be really enabling. There's a the Be My Eyes app that you've heard
Leo Laporte (02:03:01):
Of. Yeah. There's a great example. But that's humans. Yeah, yeah.
Andy Ihnatko (02:03:04):
Well, n not not, not now. Cuz the new version of it integrates G p t four Oh, no kidding. And can, and can do a lot of that stuff just with a software device. So the ability, it's simply describe what's, have a running, if you just have a, an earpiece in as describing a running commentary of you, you have a, you have your phone in your pocket, just like with the, what was that movie? Sh her, she, we have a safety pin. So the camera is always sticking up a little bit, and it's just always describing things to you that would be significant to you if you're walking through the city. If you're, if you have problems with vision, that's, there's, there's a lot of stuff that's, that goes beyond again Babylon five fan fiction generated automatically. We're, we're, we have to transition past the, the cute demos and the, oh, we can look, look at this fail and figure out what does this technology fundamentally do, and how can we use that as a flavor enhancer for a lot of the stuff that we already have where we haven't been able to make
Leo Laporte (02:03:54):
Work before. That's a great story. I hadn't heard about it. Be My Eyes is an app that would normally is a blind person. You'd launch it and you'd say, can somebody volunteer to come online and describe this for me? And human volunteers are required, which means it doesn't always work. Right now, they're gonna add chat G b T four, so that you, you don't have to wait for a human volunteer to help you. That's pretty incredible. I, I, that's great. I can't wait to see that one work. Congratulations. The Academy Awards were Sunday and Apple won an Oscar. Okay. Wasn't the best picture. Oscar, they won for Coda. In fact, I don't, I think only Netflix was in that category with everything everywhere all at once. And of course, they won seven Oscars. So Netflix is very happy.
Jason Snell (02:04:41):
Well, that's, that's yeah, but that was a theatrical release, right? That was, that was an a 24 release.
Leo Laporte (02:04:45):
It's true. It's not really, yeah, Netflix. Yeah. Yeah. Although, yeah, I don't think
Jason Snell (02:04:48):
It's Netflix. Netflix right now where it's on Showtime right now. Now Netflix got, it's on the cable though,
Leo Laporte (02:04:52):
On the, on the stage. I gotta say. They kept saying, thank you, Netflix. So they must have pumped some money into it. Apple did get a Academy Award for Best Animated Short, the Boy, the Mole, the Fox, and the Horse. So they can celebrate a little bit for a best animated short. And it is in fact on Apple tv.
Jason Snell (02:05:09):
You know, who's the executive producer of that short, Johnny? I
Leo Laporte (02:05:13):
No. Really
Jason Snell (02:05:15):
True story. Yep.
Leo Laporte (02:05:16):
Wow. That's cool. It also got a BAFTA for Annies and an NAACP image award. So v v very well awarded. That's great. That's great. Finally, I don't know if this will be of interest to you or not, but this is from a website called Reeks the World Reeks, r e e k e, the story of Soumi and the Mac Startup Sound. So this is this is a clip from a movie. Let's see, I was interviewed, reeks is a a sound designer who did so sue me. I was interviewed for a documentary about the history of the Macintosh of San Francisco. They gave me free beer too. But sadly, my favorite scene was deleted in the final edit. Fortunately, I found this clip on the cutting room floor. So Mr. Reeks is telling us the story of Soumi, which is, in my opinion, the most annoying Max Sound <laugh>. But anyway, I won't play it because I don't want to get taken down, but it's great that it's here. Yeah. It's like, it's, it's truncated. He also talks about the startup sound. Jim Reeks, who
Jason Snell (02:06:33):
Is Yeah. See, and anybody, he, he said something that I thought was really funny about how, you know, their inspiration was actually the chord at the end of a Day in the Life by the Beatles. And once you think about that, you're like, oh, yeah, because it's that big C Yeah. Major chord. And that's what the Max Startup sound is too. Yeah. So it's absolutely,
Andy Ihnatko (02:06:53):
Yeah. And, you know, and, and you know how much time Steve Jobs spent certifying and, and writing notes on the, on that one chord, because that's the sort of stuff that he would absolutely get into.
Leo Laporte (02:07:05):
Well, actually, what's kind of interesting is Jim says he had to sneak it in because this, the Mac team didn't wanna put in another start sound. They said it was done. And so he went over to the people doing the ROM and said, can you sneak this in <laugh>? Should I, maybe I, I should. It's on YouTube. I don't wanna steal his thunder. I'll just do this. Well, like, I guess we don't have sound in physical
To, that's too late, too late take. I don't know where that's coming from. Oh, there, it's anyway, watch it explains the sui sound, which is I think the oldest Apple sound still on the apple, right? I mean, that's the original beep sound and the Max Startup sound where she had to sneak in. Gosh, I really wanna play this. See the chilling effect that D M C A has on all of us. Let's, instead of doing that, let's take a break
Jason Snell (02:08:04):
Leo Laporte (02:08:05):
Thank you. Was that the original startup?
Jason Snell (02:08:08):
Yeah, the original little
Leo Laporte (02:08:11):
Thing. It's a sine wave. That's terrible. That's
Jason Snell (02:08:14):
All. Well, that's all they could do back then. Now, now we've got to the, when you watch a an Apple TV original, it's a whole orchestra literally playing that same chord <laugh>. So it goes
Leo Laporte (02:08:26):
So much better. So much better. Yeah. let's take a little break when we come back. Your picks of the week, Zach, if you wanna give us a pick of the week, that'll be great. Not required, but I first, before we do that, I wanna tell you about Zoc. And actually Jason has a little sound that he makes for Zoc. Zoc. Thank you. <Laugh>. He's a Gilbert, the Gilbert Gun Folks
Jason Snell (02:08:49):
Chicken for Zoc, Zoc
Leo Laporte (02:08:52):
 what is Zoc? Actually, it's a amazingly useful app that you will absolutely wanna have. There is nothing worse than going to a doctor's appointment and having, you know, expectations like they're gonna pay attention to me. And then the doctor's going, eh, can we get this done? I got a golf date to, to make, he's just not paying attention. Well, the truth is, everybody has kind of different expectation from a physician or a doctor of any kind. I like to have all the information. I want it all explained to me. There are a lot of people who just say, Nope. Just gimme the facts, Jack. What, what drug do I have to take? And we'll leave it at that. On Zocdoc, you can find the doctor that's right for you. Quality doctors who will listen to you, we'll focus on you who'll give you all the information, or we'll just give you the bottom line.
Zocdoc is the only free app that lets you find and book doctors. But here's the best part, patient reviewed. Plus you can make sure they take your insurance. They're available when you need them. They treat almost any condition under the sun. Dentists, chiropractors, all kinds of practitioners. When you're not feeling your best and you're just trying to hold it together, finding great care shouldn't take up all your energy. That's where Zocdoc comes in using their free app. Millions of users rely on it. You could find the right doctor that meets your needs, fits your schedule. The worst thing is call a doctor. Say, I need an appointment. They say, well, I'm all full up. I'm not accepting any more patients. Now with Zoc, you'll know, you'll know. And they, and you'll know whether they take your insurance, right? You actually narrow the search down. I searched searching for a, a gerontologist the other day, take care of one of our older relatives.
And you can see exactly what you know, you, you limit it by insurance type. Are are they accepting new patients? Can they do an appointment soon? All of this, you can book the appointment inside the app within just a few taps and start feeling better. Yeah. With zoc plus those verified patient reviews, those are solid gold because you'll know ahead of time. If that doctor's right for you, go to zocdoc break. You can download the Zoc app for free, then find and book a top-rated doctor today. Many available within 24 hours. Now I know you're smart. You could just go to the Apple store and just type in Zoc and download it. Would you do me a favor, cuz this was how they're measuring the effectiveness of the ad campaign. Go to break, then click the link and I'll take you to the store. Actually, they have it up for a Android as well. Zocdoc.Com/Mac break. We thank Zocdoc for a great service, which I have used in really works. Was really great to be able to find that very kind of narrow niche specialty and, and, and zero right down on it. And for supporting us and you support us when you use it. Zoc break. Remember, don't go to the app store. Do that later. <Laugh>, go to the website first. Will you z break. What is this in the Discord? Somebody has posted. Oh, you Jason Snell.
Jason Snell (02:11:57):
Yes. I, I have a whole folder full of Mac Startup sounds. So <laugh>. I was
Leo Laporte (02:12:02):
So you could do
Jason Snell (02:12:03):
Any of them.
Leo Laporte (02:12:05):
So that first one is the original right? With the right.
Jason Snell (02:12:08):
Wow. Which, it's just a simple beep. And then since the, in the nineties when Steve Jobs was not there, they, they had like guitar chords and like, they kept on kind of trying to, to workshop it. And I'm sure that when Steve came back, he was like, what's going on with all these Mac startup sounds? And like, had them pick a chime. That is basically the chime we have to this day. It used to be like, it varied from model to model. They were different ones. But I I, it has been, I think for the last 20 years it's been the same time. And
Andy Ihnatko (02:12:38):
I can't believe we've gotten this far without anybody saying where the name Soumi came from,
Leo Laporte (02:12:43):
So Oh yeah. Sumi,
Jason Snell (02:12:44):
Right? Yeah. Yeah. Cuz the Beatles were suing Apple at the time. Apple Records had the license for the name Apple and the Beatles basically said, you can't do audio things, you have to only do computer things. Cuz this was in an era where those were different. And so, so Sumi was one of those, like, yeah, well, we're doing some audio things. Take that ironically now, I believe Apple bought like all the rights to the use of the word Apple and, and licenses. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (02:13:14):
It's okay. Now
Jason Snell (02:13:14):
There's to the Beatles,
Leo Laporte (02:13:16):
No lawsuits.
Jason Snell (02:13:17):
Right? But at the time, the Beatles were like, stay out of our, our play set, which is music.
Leo Laporte (02:13:22):
Apple had to resolve that before they could do they could do iTunes. Right? They had to solve that
Jason Snell (02:13:27):
Conundrum. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, ultimately music and computers merged together to the point where it was gonna be a problem one way or
Andy Ihnatko (02:13:34):
Another. Wasn't, wasn't the Apple CD when they, they had their their their standalone CD player?
Leo Laporte (02:13:39):
Probably, yeah. Possible. Here, I'm gonna play it. I'm gonna take a chance. Here's Jim Reeks explaining how he got the startup sound in the Mac
Jim Reeks (02:13:47):
And just sort of owned audio
Interviewer (02:13:50):
Uhhuh <affirmative>. Now this is, I guess most famous e even though not a lot of people know this, but you're most famous for something that every me user hears pretty much every day, which is the startup chime. Right? can you tell us a little bit about that? How, how did you, why is it the way it sounds today?
Jim Reeks (02:14:10):
Yeah. Well, the original sound, if you can remember on the original Mac 1 28 was actually kind of a cool sound. I I actually like that one. It's, it's
Leo Laporte (02:14:20):
Let's hear it.
Jim Reeks (02:14:21):
I don't know what's the word? It's, it's, it's just a, actually it's a really, quaint is the wrong word, but it's a good sound. Like the original 1 1 28 Mac sound. And then then when the Mac two came out, the color Mac with slots, and it was this, this big ass machine, there was an Apple sound chip developed, and it had program, what I thought was actually a horrible sound. If you're a musician, you know, about a a, an interval called is
Leo Laporte (02:14:51):
A trione. Oh, I, we're not gonna have time for his whole explanation, but it's really good. I recommend it. But he, he says that sound, he says, any musician hates that <laugh> because it's a trione, which is essentially evil <laugh>
Andy Ihnatko (02:15:05):
Christan cord or G T F O.
Jason Snell (02:15:08):
It was a dark time.
Leo Laporte (02:15:09):
It was a dark time, dark, dark time. Great explanation about it. And I guess they're in a coffee shop. It's from one more thing which I guess was a a podcast or an interview show. Let's do our picks of the week. Mr. Jason Snell, why don't you kick it off for
Jason Snell (02:15:26):
Us. I'm gonna talk about something fun. It's Marvel Snap, which is a game that came out late last year, which I love. And what I'm gonna tell you is it l it has all the trappings of being one of these apps that you install, and it's a game and it's gonna, it's gonna get money out of you, and the only way to play it is to give them more money and buy more gems. Dammit. And what I'll tell you is I played it for like three months now a lot and haven't given them a scent. And, and the fact is, you can, you can give them money for stuff, but it doesn't really affect the gameplay. It is also the most gentle as somebody who's never actually played one of these collectible card games like Magic or Har Stone. I have never played any of them.
 It, it is very gentle with you. It teaches you how to play, and then as you level up, you get more cards and you can change your strategy. But it, it does auto matchmaking. It's actually so gentle that I don't think you can detect when you go from playing against AI players to get going, playing against real people on the internet. It's actually one of the great mysteries. Sometimes I play against an opponent and and they make bizarre decisions. And I can't decide whether that's the AI being weird or whether it's just a weird person on the internet making bad decisions. But it's fun and it's short. Every game is six turns. So you play it in a couple of minutes and then you can either play again or you can move on. And I really like how snackable it is in that way.
All the cards are Marvel characters, hence the name Marvel Snap. And yeah, it's, it's a lot of fun free to play on the iPhone and iPad and even on the Mac with with Catalyst. And so yeah, or, or on Apple silicon, actually, I think it's just a straight up apple silicon translation of iPad. But it's a lot of fun and easy to play. So if you are somebody who is looking for a new game on your iPhone or iPad to waste time on I would say give it a try. You may have given it a pass because it looks like it's gonna be a sleazy game that just tries to rip you off. And it's not, you can play it without paying a scent and still get the full gameplay.
Leo Laporte (02:17:29):
It's not a sleazy game and it doesn't rip you off, says Jason Snell. Yeah,
Jason Snell (02:17:34):
It's a big song's saying something. Yeah, that's saying something
Leo Laporte (02:17:37):
Nowadays. Yeah. Andy Ihnatko Pick of the Week.
Andy Ihnatko (02:17:42):
Couple of picks for window managers. I'm a big fan of window managers. I wish that as complicated as like Linux is. I love the fact that no matter how you like your windows arranged, it can help you do that and help you do that on the fly. As I get bigger monitors, I I have enough space that I can tile my windows, and my workspace is usually turns into tiled windows. I've got the document that I'm actually writing. I've got another tiled pinned pinned window that has research on it. Another tiled pin window. That's for slacks. I'm talking to people while I'm going overlapping windows are a hindrance to my creativity. So there are two window managers that you can add on that really add things to the next level. Now, the cheap one is rectangle that we all know and love.
It's open source. This is the simple one that gives you sort of like we windows like snapping, where if you drag a window to the side of the screen, it just simply snaps to a size that's exactly half the size of the screen, whether it's top or bottom. And there are ways you can customize it. It's great because it's free rectangle app. You can get the pro version that adds a whole bunch of shortcuts, a whole bunch of different conditionals saving how you set up your workspace. That, and I I, I, I bought it because I was ashamed to f find out much, much later on that there is people who are making like a rectangle pro formerly hook shot according to the rectangle site. But I desperately wanted to give them $10, so I gave them $10.
 But recently I also found out about something that is an interesting twist. I don't use it myself, but I think a lot of people would wanna know about it. It's called Swish from highly Opinionated. This is, this is 16 bucks with a free trial. What's the, what's unique about this one is that it integrates really, really well with your track pad or your multi-touch magic pad. So that if you don't necessarily wanna use keyboard shortcuts or mouse drags, just simply like moving your mouse into the the title bar of the menu and dragging down twice will basically put it where you want it to go, or close a window or move it. And it gives you much, much more muscular movements like that. It's not the way that I, I I deal with windows. I am very much a mouse and pointer sort of person.
I don't really for some reason Multitouch on Desktop has never really gotten past squeeze squeeze and stretch for me. But it's a good alternative if, for those of you who are really manipulating a lot of windows all the time, if you're in the middle of a meeting, for instance, and you cover you, you suddenly don't realize, realize that you needed this thing, but you do. But now I was covering up this other window, I could see where that would be a very big thing. My choice is rectangle Pro but even the, the basic rectangle free open source one. We'll do you just fine. I, I couldn't do without a Windows manager because otherwise I would do nothing, but okay. Okay. Now resize and, okay. Oh, now it's overlapping. Eh so it's it's, it's one of my go-to apps.
Leo Laporte (02:20:34):
I use Rectangle, but I am, this swish actually looks great, so I'm gonna take a look. Cause I do use the, it
Andy Ihnatko (02:20:38):
Is, I tried to, again, it's not for me, but it, it was very, very natural to use. It doesn't, I couldn't get it to scr. I, I was as someone who doesn't use Multitouch, it was very, very easy to learn. It wasn't screwing up, it was doing exactly what it told me it would do. And so I think it was a very, very nicely crafted piece of software and 16 bucks, and you own it for Fur for Life. And you, I I like the ability to give a developer money saying, tha I love your, I love the thing you created. Here is some money. There is, whether you're, whether it's a, a, a comic book artist at a, at a, at a comic, a ComicCon or whatever. There is no more fundamental thing. Than's saying, I like what you do. Here is some money to further validate this compliment. Yeah, I
Leo Laporte (02:21:18):
Agree. I agree. Apple a coffee it's on set. But, you know, I'm always, I feel like, I hope, I don't know if people who are on set get the full benefit of setups. So I think maybe just by, don't
Andy Ihnatko (02:21:29):
You, well can
Leo Laporte (02:21:31):
Try, you can buy Set, I
Andy Ihnatko (02:21:32):
Guess if you want. Well, you can just download it and install it as a regular app and, and register it for 60 bucks. You don't have to like, subscribe to set. Right. in order to do it. 
Leo Laporte (02:21:41):
But no, but I know Setapp has like 200 apps and I, I think Mike, Mike is a Setup App fan. I think so. I just mentioned that if you already have set up, you already have Swish.
Andy Ihnatko (02:21:51):
They, they, they do men, they do mention in the in the docs that there's a reason why it's not in the App store and it's because it needs permissions that the app store will not grant it. Yeah. Because, because again, it's not designed to simply play. It's designed to fix something that Apple doesn't think that needs fixing. That
Leo Laporte (02:22:05):
Thing is perfectly, that
Andy Ihnatko (02:22:06):
Ain't broke in and of itself, right? So, yep.
Leo Laporte (02:22:09):
Swish swish Swish, which is a wonderful sound. Highly Zach, did you wanna give us a pick of the week? Something you, you like you're using, you're you're fond of? It could be a TV show, a book, or an app, anything you want.
Zac Hall (02:22:24):
Hi, Andy took mine. No, I'm kidding. I have
Leo Laporte (02:22:26):
A That happens all the time. Don't <laugh>.
Zac Hall (02:22:29):
I have a pick. Listicle.
Leo Laporte (02:22:30):
Oh, so yes, prepare.
Zac Hall (02:22:32):
Leo Laporte (02:22:33):
Yes. I'm, I'm ready. Yeah. First.
Zac Hall (02:22:34):
Yes. Yep. First off the Cure is gonna go on tour in North America for the first time in seven years. First off, it was in New Orleans. I'll be there. So there's that.
Leo Laporte (02:22:42):
You're actually going to New Orleans to see the Cure?
Zac Hall (02:22:45):
Yeah, it's, it's an hour drive for me. Oh,
Leo Laporte (02:22:46):
Where are you? I didn't, I should have asked. I didn't know. Sure.
Zac Hall (02:22:49):
Leo Laporte (02:22:50):
Biloxi. Ah, nice. Oh, so an hour away you can see the Cure go.
Zac Hall (02:22:54):
That's right. It's the first stop on the tour. Yeah. First tour in seven years. Oh,
Leo Laporte (02:22:58):
How fun. How fun. Yeah. Yeah.
Zac Hall (02:23:00):
Yeah. Super excited about that. I recommend adopting dogs. I adopted a dog two weeks ago. She's four. Her name is Nova. Oh, she is a Havanese
Leo Laporte (02:23:10):
Dog. Ooh, they're big. Those are, aren't those big?
Zac Hall (02:23:13):
This is a small dog. I can only have a small dog. Where? At this house. So, yeah. Okay. Yep. She's, it's my first time having a small dog and it's really cool. She goes everywhere with me. So one of the two. Aw, yeah, yeah.
Leo Laporte (02:23:24):
Jealous. where is your Aveni
Zac Hall (02:23:27):
Other room.
Leo Laporte (02:23:28):
Oh, alright.
Zac Hall (02:23:30):
Yeah. TV show Fleischman is in trouble. On fx. Yes.
Leo Laporte (02:23:35):
You enjoyed that? Yes. I wanted to know if that's good. Is it good?
Zac Hall (02:23:38):
I loved it. I'm, I'm a single dad. I'm, I'm divorced and it hits all the notes from me. So
Leo Laporte (02:23:43):
It's, it's about a guy who wakes up and he's, he's divorced all of a sudden. And his wife has disappeared.
Zac Hall (02:23:49):
His wife has disappeared. He's got his two kids, and, and boy and girl, and man, do I know that one? So I found that to be very relating not just for that specific situation, but also just sort of a career retrospective. Are you where you wanna
Leo Laporte (02:24:01):
Be? Were, were you married to Claire Danes? Too
Zac Hall (02:24:04):
I, I don't like to admit it, but yes,
Leo Laporte (02:24:07):
I watched it cuz I'm a big fan of Lizzie Kaplan and she's wonderful in it. Yeah. And Claire Danes is wonderful in it. But I don't, I haven't recommended it because I think it's a little weird, but I think it's good. I really liked it a lot. Good. I'm glad you recommended it. Yeah. Yeah.
Zac Hall (02:24:23):
I was surprised by it. It was one of those where I had to watch every week the day I came out. Yeah. and then lastly
Leo Laporte (02:24:27):
On Hulu, it was an FX show. That's right. You can see it on Hulu now. Yeah.
Zac Hall (02:24:32):
Yep. And then lastly, tiny Crosswords plus on, on Apple Arcade on the iPhone. I, I've replaced social media apps with this and I, I've kind of thought about it and I, I think the reason I like this crossword app in particular is because everything's bites sized. It, it's a way to make me do something with my phone when I'm bored or, you know, don't, don't wanna be doing nothing in line in, you know, grocery store or something. And then I think especially it makes me feel smart for figuring out very easy crossword puzzles, <laugh>, which I think is something I was getting from social media too. <Laugh>. I, I looked at dumb takes and I felt smart from that. So it's a,
Leo Laporte (02:25:06):
I think it's hysterical that you think a crossword puzzle replaces social media, but okay. Yeah. Okay. All
Andy Ihnatko (02:25:11):
The s all satisfaction of finishing the People Magazine, crossword Ink <laugh>. I, I, I I feel that
Leo Laporte (02:25:18):
<Laugh> or is it as easy as the TV guide crossword puzzle? Cuz that's really right. I,
Zac Hall (02:25:23):
And one more
Leo Laporte (02:25:23):
We miss it. Yes. One more. Wow. And I felt guilty. Guilty asking you for a pick. Okay. What else? <Laugh>
Zac Hall (02:25:30):
Last one is if, if you enjoy apple Tech podcasts and, and you really like to have a, an American host and a, and a UK host and an, you know, if, if you like the kind of thing about an hour and a half long. I, I, Jason does one, I do one as well. So nine to five me happy hour. I, I have to mention it here. So it's course I've been doing it of course for that
Jason Snell (02:25:51):
US uk Yeah. Magic just can't be, you can't beat it.
Leo Laporte (02:25:55):
Who is your co-host on the happy hour?
Zac Hall (02:25:58):
Benjamin Mayo? Yeah. Oh yeah. Never met him, but we've been having this two hour call every You're kidding week for, you're kidding. For almost 10 years now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If we, if we ever find an Italian, then we're gonna do a whole connected alternative universe thing, so Yeah.
Jason Snell (02:26:13):
Dangerous, dangerous watch out.
Zac Hall (02:26:15):
Yeah. We have a lot of Brazilians at nine to five Mac, but, but 
Leo Laporte (02:26:18):
Unfortunately the nine to five Mac cert problem is hitting the website right now for the happy hour. But
Zac Hall (02:26:26):
Yes, it isn't
Leo Laporte (02:26:27):
A security issue, but, but on, it's just an expired scene.
Zac Hall (02:26:30):
It's an Apple podcast.
Leo Laporte (02:26:30):
Yeah. Yeah. So, so don't get it from nine to five Mac. Just go to your favorite podcast app and search for nine to five Mac happy hour.
Zac Hall (02:26:38):
That that's right. I
Leo Laporte (02:26:39):
Like it. Yeah, I like it. Hey, I really appreciate you coming on, Zach. It's great to have you.
Zac Hall (02:26:44):
Hey, real pleasure. I, I would come back anytime. Well
Leo Laporte (02:26:47):
Then you will, then you will <laugh> I think Alex Lindsay will be knocked back next week, but if he's not, I'm gonna be giving you a ring. How about that?
Zac Hall (02:26:54):
All right. All
Leo Laporte (02:26:55):
Right. And I just downloaded tiny crossword plus by the way. Cuz I love good luck. I love that. I love easy crosswords. <Laugh>. Yep.
Zac Hall (02:27:03):
E every four or five puzzles I throw in, not, not a harder one, but one that's got many more squares. And that feels like this challenge.
Leo Laporte (02:27:09):
Oh, wait a minute now. So here's the first clue in the first puzzle number that comes before two,
Zac Hall (02:27:17):
Huh? Exactly,
Andy Ihnatko (02:27:18):
Exactly. Puzzle. Condescending
Leo Laporte (02:27:19):
Actually <laugh>. Yeah.
Zac Hall (02:27:22):
A lot of clues are rhymes with this word or be with that
Leo Laporte (02:27:27):
<Laugh>. Okay. That was, that's it. That was tough. I think I'm ready for it. That's good.
Zac Hall (02:27:32):
But I, I'm on level like two 60. You're on level one, so Yeah,
Leo Laporte (02:27:35):
No, it's, it gets harder. It does it. Okay.
Zac Hall (02:27:38):
No it doesn't. Two sy words doesn't get hard. <Laugh>.
Leo Laporte (02:27:41):
Zac Hall (02:27:42):
Is but does go on.
Leo Laporte (02:27:42):
This is fun. I like it. Wise Bird that gives a Hoot Owl Christmas. Carol Anna Graham of Leon Noel another term for therefore, ergo he's getting harder. We got Latin now. <Laugh> man's best friend. Havanese doesn't fit Well, I don't know. I'll have to think about that one. Thank you Zach Hall, appreciate your time today. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Andy Ihnatko, when are you gonna be on G B H Next
Andy Ihnatko (02:28:16):
Next Friday, 1230 at the Boston Public Library Studios. So you can come in and g buy yourself cup of coffee. Coffee, buy yourself cookie, and watch me pretend that I'm not reading off of notes, even though I'm totally reading off of notes.
Leo Laporte (02:28:27):
<Laugh>, thank you. Andyihnatko.Com. WGBH Boston. And of course Jason Snell. Six plug something. One of your many endeavors.
Jason Snell (02:28:40):
Well, since, since Zack got me in the mood, just check out the Upgrade podcast. We have a good time. I sang some I discovered that all of the classical music I could think of off the top of my head this week was Beethoven. I have no idea why it's Beethoven, but it's Beethoven and
Mikah Sargent (02:28:54):
Jason Snell (02:28:54):
La la la. And, and I un unearth a 40 year old memory this week on Upgrade, which was that my piano teacher used to give us those little plastic figurines. That's great. With, with, with various composers on them. I hadn't thought about that in decades. I posted it to Facebook and I immediately got somebody I went to elementary school with who said I had those two and I also haven't thought about it for 40 years. <Laugh>. So, you know, it's save
Leo Laporte (02:29:16):
Any of
Jason Snell (02:29:16):
Them. We have fun. We have fun. I did not save, I have the piano, but I don't have any of the plastic figurines. I'm sorry. Sorry. Chopin. You're in a landfill somewhere.
Leo Laporte (02:29:26):
Upgrade with Mike Curley. That's the Brit on this one. Relay fm / upgrade episode four 50. Funko Classicals. <Laugh>.
Jason Snell (02:29:36):
Absolutely <laugh>.
Leo Laporte (02:29:38):
I love it. And I thank for being here. Have a great time at the Cure Concert, Zack. That's awesome. Have fun.
Mikah Sargent (02:29:45):
Leo Laporte (02:29:46):
Yeah. And thank you all for being here. We do Mac Break Weekly Tuesday's 11:00 AM Pacific, 2:00 PM Eastern Time. We are now in summertime once again. And that means it's 1800 U T C. We didn't, U T C doesn't change. We do 1800 utc. Reason I mentioned when we do it is cuz you can't watch us do it live. If you wanna get the freshest version at live twi tv, chat with us live at IRC TWI tv. Of course, Club TWiT members get to chat inside the Discord, which is always a lot of fun. Join us there after the fact easy to get copies of the show. Simply go to But you'll also be glad to know there's a YouTube channel dedicated to Mac Break Weekly. So you can go there and watch Good way to share clips if that's what you'd like to do. But probably the best thing to do is subscribe in your favorite podcast player. That way you'll get it automatically as soon as it is available. Yes, we've been doing this show a damn long time. So you may, we, you may not see us at the top of the charts <laugh>, but, but we're here 861 episodes later. Thank you for joining us. And now for the 861st time, I'm gonna tell you to get back to work because great. Time is over. Bye-Bye.
Mikah Sargent (02:31:05):
Oh, hey, that's a really nice iPhone you have there. You totally picked the right color. Hey, since you do use an iPhone and maybe use an iPad or an Apple Watch or an Apple tv, well you should check out iOS today. It's a show that I, Mikah Sargent and my co-host, Rosemary Orchard host every Tuesday right here on the TWiT Network. It covers all things iOS, tv, os, home, pod, os, watch, os, iPad os. It's all the OSS that Apple has on offer and we love to give you tips and tricks about making the most of those devices, checking out great apps and services and answering your tech questions. I hope you check it out.

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