MacBreak Weekly 860 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.
Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for Mac Break Weekly. Andy, Alex, and Jason are here. Jason's back from his adventures in New Zealand with stories to Tell. Apple has a big announcement. Yellow <laugh>. We'll talk about that. Uh, we'll also talk about a new free program that, uh, Alex says he loves the story of the Untitled Goose game. And then, of course, the rumors there are lots of them. We'll cover them all and give you our, uh, predictions for what will happen in the next few months. Next, a Mac Break. Weekly podcasts you love
V.O. (00:00:36):
From people you trust. This is TWiT.
Leo Laporte (00:00:43):
This is Mac Break Weekly episode 860. Recorded Tuesday, March 7th, 2023. It works in my head. Mac Break Weekly is brought to you by aci Learning. The military uses the most advanced technology in the world making veterans uniquely qualify for it. Jobs. Before 2030, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported it will add over 667,000 positions as one for you. Learn more about it. slash twit. Thanks for listening to this show. As an ad supported network, we are always looking for new partners with products and services that will benefit our qualified audience. Are you ready to grow your business? Reach out to advertise at twit tv and launch your campaign. Now it's time for Mac Break Weekly, the show. We talk about the latest news from Apple. But before we begin, begin this just in, in a special express package from London, England Customs. I wonder what the Customs Declaration is. Uh, <laugh>.
Andy Ihnatko (00:01:58):
What do you say it is?
Leo Laporte (00:01:59):
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Andy Ihnatko (00:02:01):
Pro Medical
Leo Laporte (00:02:02):
Prosthetic. It says Gift bag <laugh> <laugh>. It's from James, uh, longtime listener. Uh, he says, for everyone, it is this. And I have, I have one for each of you. Uh, so we'll forward, forward, those along. This is Johnny Ives Red Nose. We talked about it a few weeks ago, designed for Red Nose Day, which is March 17th, and it snaps on. I glad we could do the whole show like this. <laugh>. It isn't, I have to say, not the best red nose I've ever had. Uh, clever Design, but I, I think the foam woods are better, to be honest with you. Hmm. This is, uh, this, this is, but you know what the hell. And inside there's, it says, scared for a surprise. So Red Nose Day is actually an important, uh, charitable day, which is funny because it's comic relief, and I believe it was started in the us but it has become a bigger thing in the UK for some reason. But, uh, if you go to comic Nose Day, you can find out all about it. Get your red nose donate if you wish. Everybody here wearing their red nose. Thank you, James. Now, let's see, uh, will we have time to get this to you? We're gonna have to FedEx these out to get, because Red Nose Day is 10 days off. We're gonna have to get these to you. Quick. Customs is says it's a gift bag. <laugh> <laugh>. Hello, Jason snell. Six Welcome back from Kiwi Land.
Jason Snell (00:03:40):
You know, a panelist is never early or late. He arrives exactly when he intended to <laugh>. Um, I left you as Jason the Gray, but I returned as Jason the White. I don't know. One does not simply walk into Mac Break Weekly. I'm outta jokes now. Sorry.
Leo Laporte (00:03:53):
You shall not pause. Where's your staff? Your wizard stat?
Jason Snell (00:03:57):
It's true. I left it in the other room. But it is, uh, you know, I, I, I, yes, I was in New Zealand, the Land of Lord of the Rings, and they won't let you forget. It did
Leo Laporte (00:04:06):
See, did you see Hobbiton?
Jason Snell (00:04:08):
We drove past. We bro drove past Mount Doom. We went to Hobbiton
Leo Laporte (00:04:12):
Past Mount Doom.
Jason Snell (00:04:13):
We did. There's the volcano. That's the, that is, and you look at it and you're like, oh, that, that's, yep, that's it. It's very cylindrical. Oh, that's, we drove past Mount Do, we went to Hobbiton. And, uh, let's see, what else did we do? Oh, we went to the Wetta workshop in Wellington, which is where Peter Jackson's got all, did you do the, these props? Yep, we did the Wetta Cave, which is just in like a suburb in Wellington. It's adorable. Then we had a, you went to a cafe afterward and, you know, had a, had a, a tea and a, a meat pie as you do in the New Zealand Cafe. It was great. Awesome. Two weeks well spent. Could have spent three, four or five weeks there. So
Leo Laporte (00:04:43):
You did a, you did a walkabout, except you drove about, instead of walking, but you did a
Jason Snell (00:04:46):
Walkabout. Yeah, about 1500 miles. They're big islands. I mean, it's, it's holy cow. There's a lot of, there's a lot of driving to be done. There's a lot of sites to be seen.
Leo Laporte (00:04:52):
You did, um, both, is it correct? Say both
Jason Snell (00:04:55):
Islands North and south. North and south Islands. Yeah. Yeah. You do both. Yeah. We, yeah. I'd say South Island is more spectacular, but it, and you know, but it's way down there. Like, there's not much other than the queens southern tip of South America. Yeah. Yeah. And we spent three days in Queenstown, and we went to Milford Sound and, and, uh, had took, took a, a Queenstown beer tour, which, you know, if you've ever take any wine, a wine tasting kind of tour, it's like that for beer. So at the end you can't stand up anymore. Yeah. Actually,
Leo Laporte (00:05:19):
That's great's really good. That
Jason Snell (00:05:20):
Sounds delicious. It was summer. And lemme tell you, I, I, uh, like the idea of taking a plane somewhere where it's summer instead of winter. I know. Pretty good. I
Leo Laporte (00:05:27):
Know. Pretty good. It's been freezing here. So you Yeah. Actually missed, uh, our, our California. Yeah,
Jason Snell (00:05:32):
We missed, we missed about five inches of rain. I don't mind. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (00:05:35):
And a lot of snow in the hills. Anyway, welcome back. Yeah, it's great to have you back.
Jason Snell (00:05:38):
Thank you. Good to be here. Uh, what
Leo Laporte (00:05:39):
Happened, <laugh>? Yeah. Nothing we had, that's the funny thing is nothing. Goodness. We had, uh, good replacements. Uh, Marco Armit was on last week, which was a lot of fun. Of course, Stan Moore in the week before that, so awesome. But nobody, nobody matches the Snell. So thank you for coming home. Thank
Jason Snell (00:05:55):
You. You, you shall not pass there. I
Leo Laporte (00:05:57):
Said it. Thanks. Thank you. Yeah, you got it all in
Jason Snell (00:06:00):
Leo Laporte (00:06:02):
And please don't call me Shirley. Oh no. That's another movie. And there's Andy Ihnatko, believe it or not, from G B H in Boston. Hello, Andrew.
Andy Ihnatko (00:06:10):
We've, we've had first podcast. What about second podcast?
Leo Laporte (00:06:12):
Second podcast. I like that. That's later. This
Andy Ihnatko (00:06:15):
Is 11. I had, I'm, I'm, I'm there to cover
Jason Snell (00:06:18):
On the West Coast, technically. Mac Brick Weekly is 11 Z. Yes.
Leo Laporte (00:06:21):
There go 11 z I don't know
Jason Snell (00:06:22):
If they know about second podcast.
Leo Laporte (00:06:24):
<laugh>. Yes. All, it's all one large long podcast to Mr. Alex Lindsay of office Hours. Dot Hello. Hello. Well, hello, Alex. Alex, you sent us some great wonderful mid journey images from, uh, last week and you've been doing it for every show. And I just, they're fun. They're fun. They're good. I love what you They're fun. You do? Yeah. Yeah. Fun. Do we use it last week, John Ashley? I, God. Yeah. Oh God, yes. He says <laugh>. Ah, there it is. Warm apple bat. The warm apple bags.
John Ashley (00:06:50):
It exudes, you know, comf, you know, like it's perfecting.
Leo Laporte (00:06:55):
Yeah. Alex is nice cuz he sends us four and we get to pick. And then John Ashley picked that one. It was very, yeah, those very
John Ashley (00:07:01):
Ing personally, it doesn't top one of the, uh, ones he sent for last week's TWiT with the,
Leo Laporte (00:07:05):
Uh, the fetch, the, the top fetch happens. Yeah, those are good too. Love those two <laugh>. Well, it's not a requirement, but we sure appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, it's good's. Really fun. Fun. Yeah, it's really fun. Uh, gosh, there are some stories, but mostly rumors. I hate to say it. <laugh>, do you le So here's a question. Jason, longtime journalist, do you lead with a rumor? You lead with the news?
Jason Snell (00:07:27):
No, I think the big breaking news of this week is that Apple has discovered a new color. They have called it yellow. Oh, yellow. Is that, is that a
Leo Laporte (00:07:37):
Rumor or is that real?
Jason Snell (00:07:38):
No, it's real.
Andy Ihnatko (00:07:40):
Got released.
Jason Snell (00:07:41):
It's real. There's they, this is the apple spring color refresh where they, uh, say, oh, no, no, we forgot a color for the, uh, lower cost iPhone. Uh, yellow. Yellow. So now there's, that's your winner. If you had that, if you in the lottery yellow, what the color would be?
Leo Laporte (00:07:56):
Holy cow. Oh,
Jason Snell (00:07:57):
Come down and pick up your Turkey. It's a yellow.
Leo Laporte (00:07:59):
That is iPhone. So yellow. Yeah. Uh, lemme see if I can, there it is. Woo. They call me mellow yellow. It's sun shiny yellow. Hmm hmm. And it is available Not, that is not though for you pros. No. You have to have snow. Not dude colors.
Jason Snell (00:08:15):
No, it's a bright color. It can't be in a pro phone. <laugh>. No, we can't have that.
Andy Ihnatko (00:08:20):
Too whimsical. Yes.
Leo Laporte (00:08:21):
Okay. So, so that was a rumor that turned into fact. So that's good. You saved me. There you go. That's the news.
Andy Ihnatko (00:08:27):
But that's, that's something, that's something we have to add to the, like the Apple annual metronome. That this is the second, is this the second or the third year in a row that they've had a spring color for the iPhone
Jason Snell (00:08:37):
Third, I think.
Andy Ihnatko (00:08:38):
Sorry. Thank you. Third. Uh, plus like an addition of, and here's our new spring line of watch bands <laugh>, because it's, it's, it's fun. I'm glad this is, this is old school Apple. I'm glad that, like, they're still remembering that this is the same company that did Apple. So that did iPod socks. This is, you know, this is, this is it, it's okay to simply say that we're just, there's no real reason or need for us to add a yellow phone. It's not as though we're missing. There's a recent, oh, that's why, that's why sales of the iPhone 14 were down. We're, we're, there are people who are waiting for a yellow one who've been holding out. There you go.
Leo Laporte (00:09:10):
The yellow colors. The, uh, the spring colors tend to be kind of Easter Eggy colors. Yes. So here's the spring watch band collection, which is kind of an orange sherbet, uh, a lavender, uh, weave. The orange sherbet is poly. Uh, you know, is the sport band, the rubber band, a light blue? I would say bur, I would say robin's egg blue. Let's, let's keep it in the spring and egg yolk yellow. Uh, they're pretty bright. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty, yeah, pretty bright.
Jason Snell (00:09:41):
And, and, you know, all of us nerds are gonna be like, come on, it's just colors. And it's, it's true. It, it, they are just colors. But this is a fashion kind of thing. And not everybody buys a phone in the fall. And this will get them through the rest of the year. It also allows Apple to kind of reengage and, and have some ads that are not the same old ads, uh, that about the same old phone. And I know as silly as it is, a bit like, Hey, it's yellow. That's like, that's, Hey everybody, it's yellow. But it does let them remind people like, Hey, here's the iPhone and, and maybe you want one now. And how about this? And if you don't like this color, we've got some other colors and look it as, as fashiony and, and sort of silly from a tech perspective as it is. It obviously works for them or they would not keep doing
Leo Laporte (00:10:24):
It. Sure, sure. Uh, here is actually the official names Sprout Green. Oh, please. I call, I call that puke green, uh, canary yellow Olive solo Purple fog. That's the lavender one. S uh, those are the new ones. Okay. That's in the solo loops. And then the braided solo loops. We've got bright orange and olive braided, uh, in the sport bands. We've got bright orange olive. So I guess, oh yeah. Okay. I guess there's nothing new, uh, for the high-end watchers, we're going to just stick with the same old colors. Maybe there's a new sport loop. Nope. Nothing. They don't, did they put out a press release <laugh>?
Andy Ihnatko (00:11:12):
Yeah. They, there's, there's, there's, there's not 'em on, on Apples press release. Yeah. All
Leo Laporte (00:11:16):
Right. Apple Newsroom. I should have gotten there this morning. I don't know what I was
Jason Snell (00:11:20):
Thinking. Hello? Hello? Yellow again. Yellow.
Leo Laporte (00:11:22):
Yellow is the yellow
Jason Snell (00:11:24):
Meow. Yellow. How yellow is your
Andy Ihnatko (00:11:26):
My, my idea of fun is like, how many, like YouTubers and whatever, like had to haul their butts and a Cupertino for a briefing because the be to on the, on the yellow, on the yellow iPhone, even though it's just a, I'm it's yellow. Got it. Send me a photo. Good. Thanks. Got it. No, no, no. We, we really wanna walk you through the dec mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay,
Leo Laporte (00:11:45):
Here we go. You think they did? No. Come on.
Jason Snell (00:11:48):
Look, I, I can, I can neither confirm or deny no. Apple says, oh, okay. All I could, all I could tell you is that I might have spent 20 minutes, uh, ponding my yellow, oh, uh, harshing my mellow and ponding my yellow. What could
Leo Laporte (00:12:01):
You say about yellow that hasn't already
Jason Snell (00:12:02):
Exist? Like I said, I, I think it's an opportunity for them to reengage on the phone and ba basically like talk about what software and what software updates they've done recently. Any features that they've added, but also just sort of also, this is the lower end model. So I think that maybe a lot of reviewers are like, you know, they, they cast it off in the fall because they're focused on the pro phone. And, uh, you know, it's a chance we hear about the plus sales flagging. Maybe it's a chance to point out the virtues of the, of the, that plus model as well. And, you know, but in the end, yeah, it's just, it, it is Apple waving and saying, Hey, hey, over here, remember the iPhone and don't forget us. It seems to work for them. We're
Leo Laporte (00:12:36):
Still here.
Andy Ihnatko (00:12:37):
Yeah. Yep. There, there's a, there's a reason. Also, remember the Samsung does their, like, big flagship drop in February, so that's getting people's attention. Uh, Google also chooses mid-season to do their Aeries phones, where they'll do like the Pixel seven, and then they'll do the, like $400 seven a likely, like usually in April and May. So it is a, it's, I don't, I don't think Apple needs to necessarily compete necessarily, but it's a, it's an additional good excuse to make sure that you remind people that buying a new iPhone is something that they're capable of doing. If they have like seven or $800.
Leo Laporte (00:13:10):
So you thought there wasn't any news. This sweet. There you go. Ke yellow
Andy Ihnatko (00:13:17):
Right on top of it. Breaking news. as timely as today's headlines.
Leo Laporte (00:13:21):
How could I have missed it? All right. Well, back to the rumors. <laugh>, uh, no, there are,
Andy Ihnatko (00:13:28):
I think Ben, I think Ben 2.0 has got it. I think they're both more mature. They're at a better place in their lives.
Leo Laporte (00:13:35):
I she could
Andy Ihnatko (00:13:35):
Forgive the back tattoo. I think sh I think this is a winner here. The
Leo Laporte (00:13:38):
Back tattoo that says Jen Garner,
Andy Ihnatko (00:13:41):
He has this really huge like, tattoo that, oh
Leo Laporte (00:13:44):
Andy Ihnatko (00:13:45):
That was interesting.
Leo Laporte (00:13:47):
Is it a tramp stamp? If it's on a guy? Yes. I'm gonna say yes. I'm gonna say yes. <laugh>.
Andy Ihnatko (00:13:54):
Descriptive descriptively. Yes. Cause lower back tattoo just doesn't have the same sort of ring to
Leo Laporte (00:13:59):
It. No, no, it doesn't rhyme.
Andy Ihnatko (00:14:01):
No judging, no judging, no
Leo Laporte (00:14:02):
Judgment. Just other news. Microsoft has made a redesigned outlook available for free to all Mac users. No longer do you have to buy Microsoft 365. It is Apple Silicon based. I of course, because I'm a dedicated journalist, downloaded it, installed it, <laugh>, got a little throw up in my mouth and then deleted it.
Alex Lindsay (00:14:25):
<laugh>. But, you know, you know, here's the, I'll tell you something crazy. I may actually install Outlook on my computer. Why? And here's why the exchange causes so much damage in mail for me that I, I think that I would like to just put anybody who interacts with me in exchange, oh, in my company. That's great. Has Exchange Server. Here's the problem is, is that there's certain things that Exchange does, right. That nothing else does. Right. And it ruins if you're in dark mode on a, on in mail, if what happens is Exchange explicitly defines the co the text color, it doesn't allow it to, or it can, you can get into a state where it's defining that. Ah. And so people will start, like, especially when people start coloring the text inside of their thing, which is evidently a Windows thing that people do all the time. Um, drives me crazy. So people put, like, they start coloring names of like this person and this person to make it stick out. Well, the problem is you make that dark blue over and it defines that as dark blue. And I can't see it <laugh> at all. What happens
Leo Laporte (00:15:19):
If you use Apple's mail? It just doesn't show up.
Alex Lindsay (00:15:22):
It just shows up. Well, so there's a couple things. One is that it is, um, apple Mail just looks it just dark over dark, you know? And so you can't see what they're doing. Great. And then the way it handles threads is just a disaster. The exchange servers managing of threads inside of mail is just a, a, you know, and, and it doesn't happen anywhere else. Google Mail and all these other mail servers that don't, don't have a problem with it, but Exchange just destroys it. And then the other thing that happens, which is, um, unique <laugh>, is that if you create an, I create a lot of folders. So I create rules and folders. Put this here, put this here, put this here, put this here. I cannot do that if my, if the person I'm talking to has an exchange server. Cause it will copy it into a folder.
And for whatever reason, however, it deals with the Exchange server, it comes out as no content. So literally I see that they sent me an email and I could go to my phone to figure out what they did. So I had to pull it all out. So I have to leave all my exchange interactions in the main feed inside of Mail, because mail, whatever it, I don't, I'm, I'm going to assume it's an exchange server doing something funky because everything else works. Every other mail, mail service I use works except for exchange. And it will not pass the content of the, of the stuff to another folder inside a mail. So as a result, I have been looking at like, well, I might just take my work email. Cause a lot of my, for whatever reason, both on, I know, and a lot of our clients are on the Exchange server, and, and it's, uh, and it kind of screws up my mail. So I was thinking, oh, I'll just take all the Exchange people and put them in in Outlook. <laugh>,
Leo Laporte (00:16:45):
Just, and you can use Outlook. I, I connected it to Fast Mail, and you can use it for your calendar contact, uh, uh, and for email, it works with imap. But you would say just use it for the, I mean, how can, I'm
Alex Lindsay (00:16:57):
Just gonna use it for people that I email.
Leo Laporte (00:16:59):
Well, just people that I deal
Alex Lindsay (00:17:00):
With, I would just open it. Like I'll just use it for my work mail, just put it in there by itself and not have any of the other stuff there. And then I just check it, it just means I'll check it list because I, I, one has all these emails coming in and then the other one, oh, I gotta open that up and take a look at it. So agree.
Leo Laporte (00:17:12):
I will from irc Knox Harrington says, yeah, if you need to log into an exchange server, it's still much better to use Outlook Exchange is Microsoft's own, uh, mail server. Go ahead.
Andy Ihnatko (00:17:22):
Yeah. Even though, even though other, even though other services definitely support it. I'll, I think that's, I actually have, that's my pick of the week. Uh oh, sorry. Not No, no. That's o no, that's, that's okay. Uh, but, uh, cuz I do, I do use Outlook as my email provider. Uh, I've been using it for like five or 10 years. Actually. Very, very
Leo Laporte (00:17:39):
Andy Ihnatko (00:17:41):
Uh, well, no, I, I've, I've Microsoft office. My, my, my transferred my email domain to Outlook back when the one that I've been using for 15 years, suddenly, you know what, maybe 50 megabytes of mail storage is not enough for me. Maybe I should find something that, uh, but the thing is, uh, it's a, it's a really good sign because it is, uh, I ha I had, I wasn't using it until a couple of months ago because it was the typical, like Microsoft sort of arrogant user interface design. Or rather, hey, if this, if it, because this is an office type app, it has to run the same way on every single operating system. So as a result on Mac, it really looked, uh, vomit inducing. It was really, really like, Hey, look, hey, everyone has bigger screens. That means we can put more buttons and more dropdown menus and more things in here to make things more complicated.
But they did streamline the design. It looks a lot more Mac, like, it supports a lot more of the built-in interface. Now, if it sits alongside all, all of your other productivity apps, really, really nicely. And I'll have to say that in terms of when you're getting like a real, like industrial, uh, amount of email every single day, every single week, I like Outlook for its ability to really have intense tools for clearing it up and triaging things and scheduling things. I think it's a, I think it's a, I think it's a nice app now. It's nicer to use and it's now it's free. You don't have to, you don't have to pay a monthly fee to use it.
Leo Laporte (00:19:01):
Do you, is is it, do they call it inbox Sweep still? What do you use that? What is it that you use? Yeah.
Andy Ihnatko (00:19:07):
Um, well, I like, I like that it, uh, it, it, uh, it, uh, it, it, it basically has two, two switches, uh, rather two, two switches on your inbox. One in which stuff that it think it's pretty sure this is stuff that you want to know. And then the stuff where it looks like this is bulk email, not necessarily spam, but stuff that is not necessarily personalized towards you. And I found that to be very, very effective. The spam, uh, anti spam features have been gotten, actually, they've gotten a little bit squirrely in the past month. But that just shows how well the anti spam has worked before then. That, uh, uh, the fact that I'm noticing a couple of spam emails, uh, out of like hundreds of emails a day, uh, that, that shows you how well it was working before. Um, that, uh, I think that mail, uh, works great, but the reason, the way that most people get to use it in a power sort of, uh, uh, uh, position is when they learn how to integrate it with other Apple technologies.
Other, uh, other Mac technologies, uh, like, uh, like, again, making it part of a workflow or, uh, putting into automator or something like that. All the people who really use, uh,, uh, and in that sort of same industrial sort of way are people who've customized it with their own scripts and their own workflows, which is great. I haven't, I haven't actually tried workflows and stuff without looking at, I don't know what the support is. Uh, but I'm, I, uh, mail is something where it's, it really is like <laugh>. It really is like dipping my hand into fire. Like, I want to get my hand out of there as quickly as possible. So the idea of building tools to, to, uh, work on my mail on my mailbox is not something that I'm really inclined to do. So I'm, so, I'm not saying it's the greatest outlook. It's not, it's not the greatest mail client that's ever been made for, for the Mac necessarily. Uh, I think that's gonna be a very individualized decision, but I think that it's actually very, very good. It's no longer the afterthought. Well, okay. Well, we, we just, the, the few last holdouts we're using Mac on a network, uh, on an office network that we haven't managed to, to lobotomize yet. We'll throw 'em a bone and let them use like, the Windows 95 version of Outlook. It's actually a very good app, I think.
Leo Laporte (00:21:07):
Uh, Jason, anything you wanna say about Outlook?
Jason Snell (00:21:11):
<laugh>? I used to use it. Uh, great. Like, I mean, I remember entourage. That was also, uh, a thing. I think, I think it's cool for them to make it, make it free. Um, I'm an
Leo Laporte (00:21:21):
Officer Entourage. There's a name entourage.
Andy Ihnatko (00:21:24):
What would I have not heard? Here's
Leo Laporte (00:21:26):
The name. I have not heard time.
Andy Ihnatko (00:21:28):
Crossing the streams. You're crossing the streams. We're in
Leo Laporte (00:21:30):
Andy Ihnatko (00:21:31):
We're in Lord of the Rings mode.
Jason Snell (00:21:34):
Sorry. Rings
Andy Ihnatko (00:21:35):
Mode. No. Introduced the Ghostbusters. I made it worse
Jason Snell (00:21:36):
In the, in a, in a thousands of years ago with Middle Earth, there was entourage, an entourage, a fellowship, or an entourage, if you will, of the ring. How about that? There you go. It's the Entre
Andy Ihnatko (00:21:49):
Ring was played by Matt. Dylan <laugh>. Mm-hmm.
Jason Snell (00:21:52):
<affirmative>. Yeah. It's the, it's a more broer version of four of the Rings. <laugh>.
Leo Laporte (00:21:58):
Uh, okay. <laugh>. Uh, now you've thrown me. All right, let's go back. Uh, let's go back to the news. The news, the Untitled Goose game. Uh, cable Sasser. We've talked about him many times before. A panic, he created that little thing with a crank that you love so much. Uh, Andy and Play date. Play date. He also as well known for their, uh, their really nice, uh, apps, uh, for the Macintosh. What does it transmit? What does, what else does Panic do? Sure.
Jason Snell (00:22:32):
Uh, they used to have Coda and now they have Nova, which
Leo Laporte (00:22:35):
Is their Web Nova. I still
Jason Snell (00:22:36):
Use from time to time web development tool. Yep.
Leo Laporte (00:22:38):
Yeah. Anyway, uh, they also have a hit, which is good cuz it's, cuz frankly those other programs probably don't make 'em a lot of money. Uh, called the Untitled Goose Game, which is a really good fun game, which you could play on, uh, PCs. And, uh, I guess I, I don't know, I I, I don't know if I've ever played it on the Mac. You played on your consoles cable, uh, tooted, which I like on Mastodon. A short story, uh, uh, yesterday, in fact, he says a short story. We once submitted Untitled Goose Game to the Mac App Store. Cuz they thought, well, why, you know, let let Apple people download it from the app store. It was rejected from by the reviewer because they thought you couldn't skip the credits <laugh>, which is a weird reason to reject it. So we explained that you could skip the credits, you could, in fact, by holding space. So the Apple said Oh, huh. And then rejected it for something else. And at that point we just gave up and never bothered to resubmit the end.
Jason Snell (00:23:41):
Yeah. It's on Steam and Itch and stuff like that for the Mac. Yeah. But they, they were gonna put in the Mac app store. This says everything about Apple's, you know, curation that, uh, it's, it, it, it's like one of these archetypal Mac App Store or App Store in general. Stories where things that shouldn't be in the stores are allowed in and things that are perfectly fine. And there's no reason that they should be rejected or rejected for reasons that are baffling or, or don't actually exist. Uh, you hear that, uh, you, you hear developers all the time saying they submitted something that's literally been approved a million times, and then suddenly they flagged something that's not new and say, this is in violation, or, or we couldn't get this to work. Right. Or there were a bunch of masin on clients got rejected because they thought somehow that the, the client author was the owner of Mastodon and controlled the whole service. Like it is. It's just one of those examples. Like, I'm not saying the App store curation is, is not a hard job, but I'm saying like, Apple's the one that forces it to be a, the curator of everything. And if they're gonna do that, they need to do their job. And this is just yet another story Yeah. Of a stupid, you know, a reviewer that's not paying attention and you get a stupid rejection. It's, it's ridiculous.
Leo Laporte (00:24:52):
Stefan at Garden State do social tooted Beck quote, please title your game. <laugh>. Which, which would be Yes. You know, I could totally see it being the reason for rejection. Um, then, uh, somebody else, uh, said, uh, it is the Apple has created the h o a, the Homeowner's Association of Software <laugh>. True, true. Um, and honestly, if Apple is and the I dash Toots, success, fun, prevented. If Apple, which is, is in fact, by the way, it's great game. If you haven't played it, you get to play a goose Super.
Jason Snell (00:25:27):
So good
Leo Laporte (00:25:28):
Pestering a farmer, making a mess of things, just being annoying,
Jason Snell (00:25:33):
Ruining a whole town. Yeah. Yeah. I love You're the bad guy. It's
Andy Ihnatko (00:25:35):
Great. Yeah. I got, I I, I gotta say, just as a, as an aside, the, in the first like five minutes, I was embarrassed and thrilled by how much fun I had just turning on a tap, forcing some, and someone, then the farmer comes on and turns it off again, and then this'll be turning it on again and forcing the farmer to come back and turn it off again. I am embarrassed by how much I enjoy just annoying this random non-player character. <laugh>. That's
Leo Laporte (00:25:59):
Way, it's so much fun. It's a great game. It's so much fun. Uh, so, um, but you're not gonna get it at the app store because Apple just, you know, apple doesn't like games. This is the problem. Apple is really trying to establish themselves. Didn't they invite a bunch of influencers just a couple of weeks ago to the campus to see games? Not the Untitled Goose game, I'm guessing. Anyway, <laugh>, these things happen. What are you gonna do?
Alex Lindsay (00:26:22):
You know, I, I've submitted a couple apps to the, to the, the Storm. It's taken between, uh, two and four submissions over two weeks to get 'em in. Um, they give us back something, we fix it, they give us back something else, we fix it. Right? And usually I can see, I, I may not agree with what they say, but I can understand what their, what their thought process is. And, um, you know, it just, I've never, something not get in <laugh> to the store. Um, we just, you know, just move things around until Apple's happy with it. Um, there's a, I guess I, I have to admit that I work in a lot of countries. I, I live in a state where the only, only part of the state that I like is that my wife likes living here <laugh>. So, so the only so the thing is, is that, you know, there's a lot of things that are imperfect in everything, you know, and I think that, you know, apple can obviously do better.
Everyone can always do better. Um, it's a lot of people submitting things, um, <laugh>, you know, in into those things. And it's not just a matter of hiring more people. It is, it is a matter of just a serious amount of flow, you know? And, and it's just an intense, uh, uh, intense amount of flow. And there, and, and this is one sample. There are millions of people that seem to be able to figure out their way to get into it. <laugh> like, pretty, pretty effectively. And if you, you know, I've just, I just, again, I talk to other people that I've programmed with or that, that I've worked with on, on, on submitting them. They can't remember a time that they couldn't get it in. I talk to people who work on, on the, on apps that are, again, people that I know that are putting these things in and they're like, nah, you know, sometimes you go back and forth a little bit and then you get it in and they don't, they don't have,
Leo Laporte (00:27:47):
I mean, I agree and I
Alex Lindsay (00:27:48):
Just wanna make sure to
Leo Laporte (00:27:49):
Be fair, we says why the second rejection happened, or, and it sure sounds like just went, oh, fine, whatever, and get script.
Alex Lindsay (00:27:56):
We have someone who, who can get a lot of po but there's millions of people that are figuring this out. You know, the thing is they
Leo Laporte (00:28:01):
Have other, don't they? I mean, I, I'm not sure, but I think Oh
Alex Lindsay (00:28:05):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the app isn't, and the app isn't like, uh, you know, it's not the only game app in, in the store. You know, there's lots of things out there. And so someone's figuring it out. And I guess I, and I, you're blaming
Leo Laporte (00:28:14):
That. I tend to be, you're blaming panic. I'm
Alex Lindsay (00:28:16):
Just, I'm just saying that it's, if you're pragmatic about it and then you figure out how to make it work, you just get it in. No, here's the thing is, is that, no, here's
Jason Snell (00:28:24):
Alex Lindsay (00:28:24):
Here's the
Jason Snell (00:28:24):
Truth of it. Panic has lots of games in the store. Alex Panic has lots of, they have fire watches in the store. They got lots of apps in the store. The fact is, they were on all these other platforms. They're working with a development company, they're the publisher. They get, they get to these two ridiculous rejections. And you know what they said? They said, you know what? The Macapp store doesn't matter to us. It doesn't matter to our business. It's not worth our time. We were gonna do it to be nice, basically, and to say we were in another place. But that, that, and that's actually one of the beautiful things about Mac App Store not being a monopoly, is you can't do that in the iOS app Store. But in the Mac App store, you can just say, you know what? It's not worth the aggregate aggravation. We'll, we're not gonna give Apple any cut of our sales. We'll do it on Steam and Twitch instead. And they, and they walked away. And, you know, of course they could have gotten it through, but I think it's telling that after two capricious rejections, they just said, stick it and walked away. And quite rightly so,
Leo Laporte (00:29:16):
They are on pc, they are on Mac via Steam, iter, epic, they're on Nintendo Switch, they're on PlayStation four, they're on Xbox One. But note they are not on iOS.
Andy Ihnatko (00:29:27):
Yeah. That's, that's, that's, that was an important point. Realize that this company had the ability to walk away and say, this isn't worth the trouble. A because they're a big company and they have lots of other projects going on. And c they had, they were, it's a multi-platform, uh, multi-platform game that if they could walk away from Apple completely and still have some successes, but they also had the ability to still offer this to Mac users because there was an alternative app store that they could actually offer it through. And this is why Apple has to answer a whole lot of pointed questions about how they run the iOS store. Because I mean, I, I appreciate, uh, I appreciate Alex's point that it's a, it is a huge job. Uh, I also appreciate the point that there are people who have had problems with the App store, uh, approval process, but managed to navigate them.
That doesn't change the fact that Apple should be ashamed of the fact that the fact that the app store is broken is part of the app store's brand at this point. This isn't a re this isn't a recent thing. This is historically, you know, that this is part of the burden you're going to have to suffer if you're going to be dealing with Apple and trying to sell things through their app stores. And the fact that some people are not having these problems doesn't mean that the problems that some people are having don't exist or shouldn't be solved. Apple. That's not
Alex Lindsay (00:30:41):
What I'm
Andy Ihnatko (00:30:41):
Saying. Okay. But, but I'll, I'll, I I, I, I appreciate that. But I'm saying that I have to, I ever, I have to, I have to keep raising this point. Apple isn't two hippies in a garage. They have 2 trillion. If they, and they have solved problems that are at this scale before, if they want, if they feel as though it's important for them to solve it, if there's a bureaucracy that doesn't work, uh, apple would be, apple would be ashamed of themselves. If this were a simple defect in the iPhone that caused a, a similar percentage of users to have a two week problem getting their iPhones up and running, they would think people who would be fired there would be like having press releases. They'd be left and right. I don't know why Apple doesn't want to at least create the illusion that they think that this is a problem. They agree that this is a problem and they're trying to do something about it in an active way.
Alex Lindsay (00:31:28):
I think it'd be, I think it would, it'd be pretty presumptuous to think that they're not trying to make it better <laugh>. Like, you know, like they're not trying to,
Andy Ihnatko (00:31:34):
They're trying. They're trying. And they're failing. Again,
Alex Lindsay (00:31:35):
Brand again. I, I don't think that, I think that the, I guess I just, and I admit that the, that the, what I view, I look at everything is broken. Like everything around me is broken all the time. So I look at how the state is broken. Every program is broken. Everything I do is broken. Everything is broken. Like everything's broken. Nothing's working perfectly. There's things that are, you know, falling apart all the time. I don't know, a single thing that I think isn't broken. So, so I have to admit that I look at it like, well, you make, you make progress. And as someone who works in a lot of things with a lot of people, you know, nothing's perfect. And you sit there and you go, well, let's, let's, let's figure out how to keep on iterating. And I think that Apple is gonna keep on iterating in those areas.
But I think that if I needed to get something in, if it mattered to me, and it has mattered to me to get things into the App store, it hasn't been that big of a lift <laugh>. Like it is. Like, it's not like it's been traumatic to get it in. And I will say that as someone who is now, right now I'm designing apps that are gonna go in, in the fall, and these are may actually be a, a for, you know, a for sale product. Um, I, uh, I don't want it to be easier cuz I know that I'll get in <laugh> like, you know, cause I, I'll figure out what I want <laugh> and what I mean,
Andy Ihnatko (00:32:42):
Stage capitalism, ladies and gentlemen, ladies stage capitalism. I'm sorry,
Alex Lindsay (00:32:45):
I'm joking. No, no. The the reason for that is that I want the maximum confidence of the user that when they download it, what I prioritize as a developer is that I want the, the user to have the highest level of confidence. Even if it means that it's harder for me to get into, so that they're more likely to go, oh, that looks interesting. I'll just buy it. Like, I have a certain trust as a user. That trust is huge for small developers. Cuz I'm gonna put something out that isn't gonna be, usually I work with larger companies and they're just put, you know, and so on, so forth. I'm gonna put something out that's smaller and everything else, and I need them to trust that me and that and what Apple does, even if it's high friction and imperfect, they create a high friction system, that means that there's a much more likely, I would never put it, I mean, the Google Play store is not that way.
<laugh>. Like, I look at stuff on, like, on my Android phone. I look at it and I go, well, like, like, you know, like, I don't, I don't know what's gonna happen there. And so I don't know what the interface is gonna be like. I don't know if it's gonna be stable. I don't know if it's gonna be safe. I don't know all kinds of things about it in, uh, any other store on an apps on the app store. I go, I look at it and I go, well, I think I can. I mean, I, I'll give it a shot. I download things all the time that I just wanna see if it works. I don't, if I lose, if the users lose that trust, the com the, the, the developers that hurt the most are the smallest developers because they don't get that, that, that automatic trust that it went through this filter, regardless of how imperfect that filter is.
And sometimes it lets things in it shouldn't, sometimes it'll stop things. It's, it's, it's an imperfect filter, but the trust level is so much higher in the iOS, uh, store than anywhere else. I don't think we can argue with <laugh> trust level being higher in that store than anywhere else. Um, because that filter is hard. And so as a small developer working on something for this fall, I want that trust level to be the highest. I know that I'm not gonna have any problem. I know that it might take me three or four submissions to get it in and I'll, and then, and then it'll be there. And when people see it and they think that it might be the thing that'll solve their problem, they'll be likely to just go, okay, I'll buy it. You know? And, and so that's, that's the difference for the small, for the smallest developers, that trust is a huge issue. And for the fact that some people have a little harder time, I would, I would rather them pay for that so that the small developers can have that level of trust that they get by being in the store.
Andy Ihnatko (00:34:49):
Okay. I'll, uh, I'll, I'll try to make this brief, but, um, number one, I am a never going to make an excuse for Apple's failures in the App Store. Um, I don't think it's the b be all end all of of, uh, how Apple runs this business. It doesn't mean that this is a totally disaster and we need a, we need a regime change. But I don't think that Apple has earned any sort of excuses made on how it runs the App Store. Again, we're talking about generations in which they know this. Not just, oh, well, gosh, they have a high standard of quality. It's hard for us to, to, to maintain that. No. It's these arbitrary things that like, guess what? Well, we've decided to, there's a simple form to fill out, but we're going to put it on the top of a 20 foot ladder that's coded in bear grease.
Why? Well, because we're just making it harder for you. Uh, and that's what it often feels like. And secondly, the App Store has a all of the same problems of the Google Play App Store just in large, just in a smaller scale, that is a big advantage. But that doesn't mean that it is, it is, uh, it's, it's just a small, the problems that it has are a smaller, more contained dumpster fire than the, than the Dumpster fire that's going on in the Google Play Store. So I don't think that Apple can justify that. Oh, well look at the benefits that we're delivering by making these, by making these, this process so difficult. Again, people aren't, people aren't having a problem because they, uh, uh, they, gosh, they, they put a con, they they used a different type of control or they didn't, uh, they, they put, they used placeholder texts where they should have put final texts.
That's simple stuff. That's crossing the, that's crossing the T's and dotting the, i's they're having problems with, you've approved this five years, uh, five years in a row. Last year we quit our jobs because we're making enough money off of this app to sustain us. And now you're telling us that you're gonna be turning off all of our revenue because of an arbitrary reason. That's going to be really, really hard, if not impossible for us to arbitrate. These are, I'm just saying that this is the reason why Apple's being called in front of, of, of, of world governments to say, explain how you run the app store. Explain why we should allow you to continue to have the level of autonomy that you have. And I don't think Apple has a lot of good answers to that.
Alex Lindsay (00:36:48):
They're not, they're not getting called in front of the government because of this. They're getting called in front of the government because rich companies want, uh, to give 15% instead of 30%. Like they're no, like let's be clear that that's, there's no, none of none. Absolutely not. Right? No one would even hear this conversation like the, the, this is, the reason that they're having it is because European companies want to have European laws and American companies wanna have American laws to cut down on how much they pay because they want to, they wanna make, instead of a hundred million, they wanna make 150 million <laugh>. So, so, but that's, but that's the only reason the, the lobby would not the lobbies. I mean, you're not, you're not being like re in real, you're not being realistic there. <laugh> like the lobbies for the little, these little things would never, ever turn the corner, uh, in, in, uh, the United States or Europe. You know, th this is not what's taken it there. It's taken it there because rich companies want more money. Like, like, you know, that's, that's what, that's the only reason that it has enough force to get through that system.
Andy Ihnatko (00:37:39):
I believe that lobbying is an influence. But no, the EU is not, the EU is not having all these, every single company because the international lobbying committee on every single court is doing this. There is a movement basically saying, not necessarily saying that Apple, you need to be punished or Google, you need to be punished. It's that we have basically been under regulating you people since the 1990s. And under regulating you have has worked out really great for the world and for individuals. No, no doubt. But now's the time to ask. Now that you, now that you've, now that, uh, now that you are secure, now that all these technologies have been completely matured, is it time to simply say that no, you can't run these things exactly the way you want, that maybe there are existing laws that we have not been, uh, uh, prosecuting you on or at least examining you on?
I don't, again, lobbying is always going to be the filthy fingerprints that are on every single part of government and, uh, and, and law enforcement. However, to say that this is, that Apples, the Apples only being asked about this stuff because, oh, because, uh, <laugh>, uh, because another rival game store wants to avoid paying money or just because Spotify is upset, uh, that they're having competition inside the Apple Music Store. No, it finds people inside a government who believe that, yeah. Why is Apple allowed to have exclusive on this? Why is Apple allowed to do things with its own music app and its own music service that it doesn't allow other music services to do? That's, I, I just, I'm not gonna recheck the, I'm not gonna reject that this, that's lobbying is an influence. I will reject the idea that that's the only reason why this is happening.
Leo Laporte (00:39:11):
One of the things that is, uh, possibly gonna happen, there's a lot of pressure to allow, uh, get Apple to allow non-web kit browsers on iOS. And according to nine to five Google, Google's ready, they, uh, quietly, uh, unveiled a new effort to port the Blink browser engine, chromium's browser engine to, uh, to iPhone. Um, they can't do it yet, but I think they're preparing for a day when maybe perhaps you can have third party browsers. I'm sure everybody listens to the show knows that when you're using anybody's browser on iPhone, you're really using WebKit under the hood. It's really safari with a different ui. Uh, Google and others would like it to be Chrome, uh, the Blink engine. So, uh, there are, there's, here's screenshots of the minimal blink based browser running on iPhone 12. Seems to work. Okay. Uh, we shall see, uh, nine to five. Google actually built the prototype browser from the, uh, source code, uh, cuz it is an open source project and we're able to show, uh, their site running on iOS in the Xcode simulator, not on an actual iPhone. So, uh, progress proceeds. Do you have a problem, uh, Alex with that? Or would you prefer that all the browsers are Safari?
Alex Lindsay (00:40:35):
Sure, we can do it. I mean, all 3% of the people that want to download it, I'm sure we'll download it.
Leo Laporte (00:40:39):
<laugh> Well, there's some reason you might wanna download a non-web kit browser. Quite a
Alex Lindsay (00:40:42):
Few things. I don't have any problem with that. I, yeah, I mean, I, I think it's fine. I think it's, I I don't, I don't think there's anything wrong with having them download, uh, put it, put another browser in
Leo Laporte (00:40:51):
Apple's not gonna do it, of course. Unless forced, unless, unless they decide it strategically that maybe, you know, like a plea bargain. Okay, well if we give you this, we we gotta let up.
Jason Snell (00:41:01):
Or that it'll take the heat off. Right? Like, even if nobody's saying we're, we may make you do this, if they're like, look, look at how open we are. Just like when they did default apps. Yeah. Right. It, it would be a little bit like that. Um, and there are, I mean, Leo, I'm glad you mentioned there are lots of reasons for it, Alex, right? Alex is right that the Homefield advantage is strong, right? Like just getting anybody to download anything over what's already on the phone is, uh, it's the only
Leo Laporte (00:41:24):
Explanation for why an explorer was used for so many years Yeah. Was a default on
Jason Snell (00:41:28):
Windows. It's the default and people don't, and we care, but other people don't care. But I was thinking about how, you know, a, a few years ago there were a whole bunch of these and they're still out there. Things like Zencaster and cast that are like, uh, for our business. Like you can do podcasting and a browser and it records locally and then sends the file back and it's like a one-stop shop. There's only one catch. It doesn't work on Safari because what, for whatever reason, there were certain web standards that Apple just decided not to implement in WebKit. And so they still don't work. And these aren't esoteric, they're standards and they're not there. And, and you'll, and so that means if OS devices are just outta luck, but you look at this report and I immediately think, oh, like that whole class of things that doesn't work on iOS.
We'll probably work if I can run Chrome on iOS because it will have all the proper like web RTC extensions and file support that I need. And that, like, it's a little thing, it's a niche thing. But for, uh, if, if somebody's building their web app on what they think are standards, but it doesn't work in Safari, that means they're locked out of iOS right now. And although most people won't do it, I have gotten people to download Chrome literally just to use one of those apps. Right. So, uh, it's just, it's nice as an option as, but you're right. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, home Field Advantage is strong, uh, until they, unless somebody, a regulator forces Apple to like not include Safari on, uh, I and I have a hard time imagining that somebody's gonna order that, uh, you know, your smartphone must be sold empty. Right? I, it seems unlikely that that's gonna happen. So I think that it'll always be dominant
Leo Laporte (00:43:00):
If there's people who want privacy and so they use Duck Tuck O'S browser. Um, I guess you could do that on top of, uh, WebKit, but you're very limited to what Apple will allow and what they won't lie. I guess that's the way it, that's the way it is on iPhone entirely. Yeah.
Andy Ihnatko (00:43:15):
I'm, I'm, I'm just glad the idea that, uh, that Safari will have competition on that platform. Cause I do think that it will, I, I don't think that Safari is, is in need of a major revolution, but I think that it would benefit by saying that, oh, well if we're losing, if, if they see that they're losing ground to Chrome, it will say, well, we better support more standards. We'd maybe like loosen our, our our grip on certain things. The only thing I'm worried about is that we've seen, uh, about how certain scummy like social media apps, oftentimes they make you, they, they'll put a, if you tap a link within a social media post, they think, you think that you're actually opening it in, uh, in the, a regular Safari browser or the Chrome browser. You're actually opening it inside a WebView inside that app where the app can have more closer observation ver over what you're doing. And it's almost all the time. It's like, you know, when you
Leo Laporte (00:43:59):
Buy something on Instagram, you're, you're still on Instagram, right?
Andy Ihnatko (00:44:03):
Yeah. So, so I'm, I'm worried that they will replace that. Oh, great. We have one, we now have the Instagram browser. We have our own browser engine specifically for iOS specifically to keep an eye on what you're doing when you're inside the Instagram app. So they're, they're, they're both sides to this. I
Leo Laporte (00:44:16):
Have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I'm, I'm glad Safari exists, otherwise Chrome would have something like 99% of all browser <laugh>, Chrome browser usage, uh, or chromium, uh, Chrome based browsers like Microsoft's Edge. Uh, so you and I don't think a browser monoculture is a good thing. On the other hand, I'm sure Alex, as a developer, uh, it would be nice if you could develop for one browser on the web. Uh,
Alex Lindsay (00:44:38):
It's always nice to develop for one thing. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (00:44:40):
<laugh>, but don't, I think it's risky too to have a monoculture, you know, I mean, it's nice that bananas are very consistent, but at the same time, <laugh>, uh, you get a disease, all those bananas are gone. And I, I think that, uh, security is the issue with the monoculture and browsers.
Alex Lindsay (00:44:55):
Well, I think security will be the issue with the, I mean, I think if, if there's any security issues with any ex third party browser, apple's gonna bury them. Like they're just gonna, they're gonna use that. I mean, the thing is, it's what, this is an easy place for them to handle little freedom out and let people screw it up and then pound it. Well, you know, so, so the thing is, is that, you know,
Leo Laporte (00:45:11):
Like the zero days that Apple, I'm saying that's what dispatched were in WebKit. Sure. And they were zero days, they were in the wild. So I, apple has no standing. If they say, well, look, look at all the flaws in chromium. Well
Alex Lindsay (00:45:21):
They, whether they have the standing or not, they're gonna use it. Like, you know, like, the thing is, is that, you know, like they, you know, so it doesn't matter whether they have the standing or not, they're just gonna, it's just, it'll just be a good point for them. And, and if someone, you know, especially power, I think what you're gonna find is that people are gonna build third party browsers. They're not gonna be as efficient as Safari and Apple's gonna point that out in some keynote. You know, like that's, you know, that'll, that'll be what the next
Leo Laporte (00:45:42):
Yeah, that's certainly the case with Chrome on Mac, right? Uh, uh, Google is
Alex Lindsay (00:45:46):
What Holy smokes. Yeah. It's terrible. It takes up so much, you know, it's, it's just a huge CPU draw. And, and, and, you know, there's a lot of things like that. I mean, that's what happened with Flash is that Apple didn't support Flash because they wanted battery life. Right. You know, like, you know, and, and, and it's, and so, um, so I think that that's gonna be Apple thing. Like I don't put any Facebook, I don't put any meta apps on my phone, but not because I have a security issue. I don't put 'em on. I have, I'm on Facebook at, on, on my computer. I don't put 'em on my phone because I like having my battery last all day. Right. You know, and vice versa, if I put, put anything made by meta on including WhatsApp, I'm gonna, it's just gonna chew my battery into the ground, and I just don't need that.
Leo Laporte (00:46:20):
Yeah. It's notorious for that. But it's a double-edged sword for Apple too. They can't push too hard. They'd love to have it be a complete Walt garden. Uh, but they can't push too hard either. So they're gonna, they're gonna do strategic, uh, uh, concessions.
Alex Lindsay (00:46:34):
They're pretty good at trying to draw a line. I mean, they'll, they'll fight really hard in some areas and allow other things to slide slowly. Right. You know, some direction. It, it's, you know, it's kind of an ebb and flow kinda thing. Yeah.
Andy Ihnatko (00:46:43):
I, I, I just hope that the idea of controlling the whole widget continues to be something they do because they consider every single possibility and decide that this is the way that provide the best value for users. I hope that as Apple grows older, and as it starts to, at the point where it loses its, its cce, the c e o that had such a close relationship to one of the founders of the company, I hope that doesn't simply become dogma that, well, if this came from outside of Apple, we're not gonna trust it. We're not gonna use it, even though there could be an advantage to other people. Uh, but we'll, we'll see how that turns out.
Leo Laporte (00:47:14):
Yesterday, the EU in this, uh, regard had a, uh, what they called a, uh, stakeholder workshop, uh, talking about the Digital Markets Act. That's the thing that, uh, really is holding apple's feet to the fire. Of course, Spotify was one of the panelists, nine to five Mac reporting. Spotify's, uh, director of Global Competition Policy, uh, talked about the, the topic of giving choice to app developers, how to implement the rules related to in-app payment systems. These are the three issues, steering and consumption only apps. He wants two key changes. Spotify wants two key changes, and he believes that the law, the DMA forces it, one, allow an alternative option for in-app purchases on iOS. Two, allow developers and companies to have direct communications with the consumers. That is a real burr in the saddle for Spotify. And a lot of companies that Apple protects the privacy of the user and does not let the app develop or have access to the user's identity. Um, and Spotify says, this is the, uh, this is the clause of the DMA that gives them legal clout. The gatekeeper shall not require end users to use, or business users to use to offer or to inter-operate with an identification service, a web browser engine or a payment service or technical services that support the provision of payment services, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, of that gatekeeper in the context of services provided by the business users using that gatekeeper's core platform services. I'm sure in the original Dutch it makes much more sense, <laugh>,
But apparently that's the clause and I can see
Andy Ihnatko (00:48:56):
Be, when this Loreto was set to music, it's gonna be the highlights of the opera season. I promise you
Leo Laporte (00:49:01):
<laugh>, uh, Spotify doesn't like the 30% Apple tax. And, and when they, when, when they use the word suppression <laugh>, I'm guessing that there's, they're talking about the app approval process, I'm guessing. I don't know what that
Andy Ihnatko (00:49:13):
Yeah, the, the only one of these, these, these three things where I really do say that, uh, apple should definitely give, is the idea of allowing, uh, uh, software developers to have a closer relationship with the users. I do under, I do understand the privacy, uh, aspect of this, but nonetheless, I think it's way too hard to, uh, I I, it seems as though Apple is saying, you don't get to exploit our users. Only we get to exploit our users. And sometimes in a company like Barebone software, you know, our friends, uh, uh, rich Siegel, and, uh, and the rest there, it's like you kind of want to have a close relationship with Barebones. You kind of want to have a close relationship with panic because they're great, they're great companies, and they are probably gonna do you extremely. Right. And the idea of making it harder for you to develop that relationship with your customers, also harder for you to figure out who are our customers? What are they responding to? Uh, what are who, what part of the segment, what segment of the marketplace are we ignoring here? And that we should probably be, uh, be, uh, be trying to appeal to. I think those are really, really important things. And I think that Apple again, at least needs to explain why this is such an important thing that, that there's such a strict ban on it. Well,
Leo Laporte (00:50:16):
Nine to five Max says Apple had a representative at the stakeholder workshop who spoke on the topic. And again, I think in the original Flemish, this might make more sense, <laugh> of fostering contestability web-based apps, side loaning and alternative app stores compliance models, uh, according nine to five, what Apple's really saying is it, it believes the App store model is the best approach for security and privacy, but they acknowledged that they will have a legal obligation to comply with the Digital Markets Act. And Spotify said, well, apple doesn't really have a monopoly in security and privacy. And, uh, it's better for everyone to encourage more competition.
Alex Lindsay (00:50:53):
I think, I think that the, uh, as a user, I don't wanna give up my privacy as a user. I don't wanna, if, if, if you, if there's some reason that you give me in the app to go to your website and download, you know, and, and to get more information or something and build that relationship, I'm a hundred percent behind it. But if I download your app, I don't want you to have my information because when I delete that app, because I decided I didn't like it anymore, you still have all my information. And if you look at how gooey, if you, one thing Apple Start is, has gotten good at with the, with at t t is you're like, really? You're selling my data? I'm like, this isn't, can we use your data for our own use? This is, can we sell this data to other people?
That's when the, every time you see that little window come up, remember they're asking, can I use you as a product? You know? And, and, and so that's how often they are using us as a product. And so that's why we don't as users, I don't want to give them that information. I don't wanna, you know, I don't want to, I don't want them sharing it. I don't want to, I'm not by buying their app, I'm not giving them the op. I don't, I'm not, I'm not okaying it. Now, if Apple says, I think the step the Apple will probably take, which I think is probably fine, is can, or do you want to share your contact information with this app developer? And that can be something that comes up and 70% will probably do the same thing with that they do with at t t, which is no <laugh>, like, you know, like, and so, but, but giving the, you know, I think giving the user choice to have that happen, I think is probably okay.
Forcing Apple to do it to every person that buys it. Not okay. You know? And I think that, uh, I don't think that, I think that you're gonna find more and more people are getting, as they realize how much they're being just resold, <laugh>, like, you know, uh, like a market pig, um, that they, uh, that they, they're gonna realize that they, people are gonna start turning more and more against it. For a while, we were in this turn where everyone thought, well, you're just gonna give up all your privacy. I don't, that's not the direction that most of the world's going now. Most of the world's going to, I don't wanna share anything, you know, and Apple's making that possible. We wouldn't even have the, the ability to say, I don't wanna share anything if the, if iOS didn't exist. Um, and so I think that cuz everyone, everyone else wants, wants our data, you know?
And so I think that that's gonna be our, that's a harder one. I think the biggest problem for Spotify is that they're falling behind, you know, apple Music. I, I use both Apple Music and Spotify almost equally just because I have some playlists on Spotify that I haven't been able to get out of Spotify. And I'll just tell you that the operating, I find that the, that Apple has passed them, you know, as far as ease of use across all my devices and my system in the ecosystem, I think Spotify has bigger problems than, than, uh, than than just being able to get in and out. Just not as good an app anymore.
Andy Ihnatko (00:53:28):
I still use Spotify, but I do see, I do see your point. I, I think I wonder, I, I wonder what Spot if why Spotify is still not, uh, making the same commitments to high resolution audio. Yeah. Not making the same commitments to I they've been announcing it. They spend it all on podcast teasing it. Yeah. And that's, that's bad too. I, I do, I do like Spotify because I, I have the opposite sort of experience, but that just shows you how, uh, uh, experiences are different across users. I do find that Spotify, it's very, very, I love the, I love the fact that I'm listening to, I'm listening to Spotify on one device and I have the Spotify app on my phone and realize, oh, you're, you're playing it through your TV and your home speakers right now. Would you like to me to take over and just act as a controller for you? Or would you like to override that without, you know, being quite so modal about it? But yeah, it's, it's a thing.
Leo Laporte (00:54:13):
One thing that still hurts my heart is the acquisition of Prime Phonic, which is the classical music app that I subscribe to and loved. And Apple has yet to replace it with something in every case. You know, whether it's Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube music, apple Music, they have classical, but it's, you know, it's all mixed in. It's just not as good an experience as pri Pph phonic, wasn't I? Yeah. I'm sad that they've never, I mean, they killed it and they have yet to replace it. Uh, they say they're gonna drives me nuts. Yeah. Uh, I'm, every single time I want to hear classical music, I'm compelled to go through, uh, unpleasant process to get to it.
Andy Ihnatko (00:54:46):
Yeah. My, my, my only real complaint about Apple Music is that it's, it's so melded into the, uh, the, the, the, the, the streaming service that if you want to listen to music files locally, which is not the, I'm, I'm not the way that most people listen to, but it's not as though it's like this screen. If
Leo Laporte (00:55:06):
You ever go on an airplane, you need it. You have to
Andy Ihnatko (00:55:08):
Have it. Yeah. And the, the way that they make it really, really confusing about here are your files, here are the stuff that you actually own. Here's the stuff that you've got on your home web server. Here's the stuff that you have like, uh, in a, in a directory on your drive. No, I don't know Apple. I don't need you to reorganize this. No, I don't want you to replace these files with Apple Music, uh, uh, files. I don't want to have be in a position where, uh, I've got my device out someplace else and I suddenly realize that I can't listen to this stuff on the plane because I forgot to sync or because I forgot to tell Apple that this is something that I wanna take with me. I really wish that there were something that was more like, uh, iTunes, even if there were, even if it were separate app. This is to create this really wonderful app just for listening to local music files.
Leo Laporte (00:55:52):
I know Vox is not the be all and end all, but that's why I pay a lot of money for a Vox subscription. Yeah. Cuz I have all my stuff stored on Vox. And that's what it is basically. It doesn't have a streaming component. You just, you, you download I think stuff for
Andy Ihnatko (00:56:04):
Streaming. I think a few weeks ago I recommended another free app that was, uh, it was, I loved it. I love it. And I still use it because it really is like iTunes, like iTunes pre Apple Music Service.
Leo Laporte (00:56:14):
Remember that? Yeah. What was it?
Andy Ihnatko (00:56:15):
Third party opportunity. I'll have to, I have to tap into it to
Leo Laporte (00:56:18):
Find it. <laugh>. Somebody will, I'll find it though. Somebody remember? Yes. And Apple, you know, uh, uh, scooter X just PO posted another Mac rumor saying 16.4 beta two has has Classical Mu Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been hearing it after. Yeah. A long time. I'm not getting my hopes up on that one. Now, if you, I
Andy Ihnatko (00:56:35):
Think it's just, I think it's just because Johnny, I think it's just because the people inside Apple like to listen to Prime phonic. They won't let us use it either.
Leo Laporte (00:56:41):
<laugh> jerks. Uh, it just, it just hurts my heart. I mean, it's not the end of the world. I can find classical music, blah, blah, blah, blah. They'll
Andy Ihnatko (00:56:47):
Get to it. Yeah. Know.
Leo Laporte (00:56:49):
Sad. And it's just one more way that the pop world has dumped on the, on the great music of our, of our life. Uh, Sonos. You driving
Andy Ihnatko (00:56:59):
Me by Peter Biska. Come on.
Leo Laporte (00:57:01):
Sonos speaker. I know. And the other reason I'm bringing it up is cause I know you and I agree on this one thing. <laugh>, he's
Andy Ihnatko (00:57:06):
Killing it in longer room for God
Leo Laporte (00:57:07):
Sakes. Sonos speakers are gonna support Apple Music's spatial audio starting March 28th. Apple isn't the only source of spatial music. I know. Uh, Spotify and Amazon both say they have it. It's, uh, and I think it's Dolby Atmos in all cases. Right. Uh, unfortunately, uh, I don't have any of the speakers that'll support this, uh, not the older Sonos speakers. Uh, you'll need an ERA 300, the Arc or a second Generation Beam soundbar. But if you have though, and I, you know, I listen to Sonos music on my moves, but they are not, they're not supported apparently. So no spatial for you. I have to say. And Jason, I know you didn't, you did a review of the, um, the new home pod, newly released home pods. Uh, and, and, and you, your biggest complaint was that they dropped out. And I have experienced some of that, but I put home pods. I replaced the minis with full-size home pods in our bedroom. One on Lisa's side, one on mine. And the spatial audio on it is really, actually really good. I can, as I wander around, I don't know how they're doing this, but as I wander around, I even go around the corner into the bathroom, it still fa feels full stereo and spatial. It really sounds great. So I don't know what trick they're pulling there. And the sound quality I think is just as good as the original home pods.
Jason Snell (00:58:21):
So they're doing a lot of, uh, processing on, on the old one and the new one, right. The, the, the spatial audio is ultimately, it's, it's got multiple stems of audio and then on the device or devices, they're computing their place and maybe your place. And then they're, um, creating a kind of a dynamic mix where they're trying to, you know, bounce things around and get it to feel, uh, like you're not getting sort of one sound or two sounds left and right. And, uh, sometimes it is magic and sometimes it's not. Although I have to laugh. Um, like sometimes with things like a a two point source, like, uh, headphones, you end up with this thing, which is, uh, what like, uh, it's just, it's just headphones. It, it can't match up with seven speakers. Right. And the answer is frequently like, yeah, but you only have two ear holes. Right?
Leo Laporte (00:59:11):
Jason Snell (00:59:11):
So there's a lot like, like
Leo Laporte (00:59:14):
It's really amazing what they could do.
Jason Snell (00:59:15):
You could, right? Like in the end it is, when you put up seven speakers or eight speakers, it really is just sound bouncing off walls going in your two ear holes. So if they can emulate that, right? And sometimes they can do that, and sometimes it works well and sometimes it doesn't. But I appreciate what they're trying to do. Sometimes, you know, like in my home theater, it sounds great in my ears on AirPods. I don't know, I could take it or leave it. Sometimes I prefer the regular stereo mix at that point. But, um, I think it's a fun idea and that in certain circumstances it can really, it can really sound more isolated and, and, and kind of full than if you only got two sources, right? Because that's, in the end, that's what it is, is they just got more sources and are doing more dynamic output, uh, by a, you know, the little computer that lives in typing inside those speakers.
Alex Lindsay (01:00:01):
There's, there's only, as you kind of try to fake it around for some, without having discreet speakers, there's only so much resolution you can have. So that's the big problem is you can't have the resolution of where those things are. I, I do a fair bit where I have doing stuff in five one and seven 12 and, you know, 514, 712 5 1, and there's just a lot of more places to put it. There's a lot of calculations that we do specifically when we get into height, um, that you're doing this kind of comb filter that, that tells your brain that it's above you. Um, and in those areas, as we start to calculate that, it becomes, uh, you're mixing, you're still, it's just very hard to separate everything out. When you have those ex explicit speakers, you get a lot more resolution. Um, and so that's the, that's the big advantage.
But I think that, I mean, the spatial audio works pretty well. I mean, I, I do think that it makes a big difference. What we find is that if you fill up, I have to compose for some of this up at times, and when I, I don't compose, I mix <laugh>, but, or build the system to mix it. And when you start filling all that space out, you are hearing it, things that are just coming down, the center channel will sound more centered, um, because your, your brain is being tickled into those, you know, by, by those other things. And it builds a bigger space in, in your head. So I think the spatial audio is pretty interesting. I have to admit that when Sonos bricked my hardware, I stopped buying them. I'll never buy 'em again. <laugh> look like I'll never, like, Sonos doesn't even show up on my radar. Like, it, it, it doesn't, the product doesn't exist anymore.
Leo Laporte (01:01:20):
Yeah. That hurt. That hurt. We have a lot of Sonos speakers all over 14 of them. The studio. Yeah. I have 14. How many do we have in, in here, John? Do you know? You ever counted 'em? 6, 5, 6 fives and a three <laugh>, whatever that
Alex Lindsay (01:01:31):
Means. That sounds
Leo Laporte (01:01:33):
Three to me. But anyway, <laugh>. Yeah. And then there's these new speakers, era speakers are the, are the ones that specifically are supporting, uh, spatial, but they're 450 bucks. I've, I think the home pods sound great at, uh, 150 bucks less than that. So I'm pretty happy with a, a big home pods. I did note Jason, that I get the dropout you're talking about where they lose pairing and then one turns on and then the other one turns off and it goes, that's extremely annoying. It happened to me most when I was airplane from a Mac when I'm, uh, airplane from my phone. It doesn't seem to happen that often. Um, it
Jason Snell (01:02:08):
Does happen, but yeah, it's variable. I tried it with all the devices and yeah, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And the stereo pair adds difficulty to the whole
Leo Laporte (01:02:16):
Thing. It's so bad when it happens that you really, it's an it, you know, it really stands out. But when it works, and mostly when I'm just saying, you know, I'm mostly just saying, Hey Schlomo, uh, play me some, uh, you know, fine music and, uh, I listen to that and I'm walking around getting ready for, for work or whatever. It sounds great. I have to say I'm, I'm really pleased I put those in the bedroom. So they're good. And we have, we still have Sonos in in a lot of other, we have Sonos in the kitchen and a lot of other places. And it, those are great speakers. Uh, I was wrong. Spotify. I, I thought they did. They don't offer 3D spatial sound, but Amazon does. My problem with Amazon Unlimited is it's half podcast ads. Now. I don't, I'm going to there cuz I wanna listen to music.
I know where to find podcasts. You don't need to flog them. <laugh> and I speak as a podcaster, so I don't know what am Amazon's just like all in on podcasts. Spotify used to be, I wonder now that now that they're losing money on it, I'm not sure that they, uh, they have the same joy and thrill in podcasting that we hear on the other side. Dude. Um, alright, let's take a little break. When we come back, I will do all the rumors. There are so many, so many rumors and some of them very, very, very exciting. So we'll talk about that in just a little bit. Andy Ihnatko, W G B H Boston from Office, Alex Lindsay and back from his walkabout in New Zealand. Mr. Jason Snell, six You might have noticed when you see the full studio, the beautiful signage for those great folks at ACI Learning, I want to tell you about ACI learning.
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Thank you aci. All right, I'm excited about some of these rumors. In fact, I've had to rethink my, uh, my, my Mac buying strategy based on one of these. Is this a surprise, Jason, that maybe the new 50 inch MacBook Air will have an M three in it? I didn't think that was gonna happen.
Jason Snell (01:08:36):
I, I am not a believer, but it would be a big surprise for them to turn over from the M two to the M three in less than a year. Remember, that was a WW d c announcement last year of the M two. And so if the M three is coming sooner rather than later, I'd be a little surprised. I think the real question is sequencing. Is this 15 inch MacBook or MacBook Air coming out soon? And then there will be a M three version of the MacBook 13 inch MacBook Air that we know and love, uh, according
Leo Laporte (01:09:08):
To the rumor. According to the rumor. But yeah, that's, I guess they'll all there will be for sure. But will it be this year? Will it be this summer? Will it be this spring? Will
Jason Snell (01:09:17):
It be? But I guess my question is, the sequence is do you, would you, if your Apple come out with this, this big 15 inch laptop that you want that's not a pro, uh, with an M two and then three or four months later go to M three? Ah,
Leo Laporte (01:09:30):
Jason Snell (01:09:30):
Or would you hold off and release an M three air and the 15 inch together? And I, I think, you know, from the outside, that's what it looks like. But I, from the inside, it may entirely be that the 15 inch was always intended to be the trail end of the M two generation, and that the M three generation would start with the air. And, you know, from the outside here, we look in and we go, well, wait, why don't you ship those things together? And so now we've got two rumors, one of which says they're gonna ship together as M three laptops, and the other says, no, this 15 inch is much further along and it's gonna come first. And they're, and, and it'll be an M two, uh, which I think is reasonable. Um, but you know, the only, the only thing is if you're Apple, you're, you might say, whoa, are we not gonna sell as many of these because we're gonna eclipse it with the M three in a few months?
And I, I, that's a good question. Um, because I think ideally they would ship them together, but it may be that, you know, the truth is that they, they needed the extra time after they ship the 13 inch to ship the 15 inch. And do they wanna wait until the summer? Um, I don't know. But I mean, it's exciting that the idea that the M three could be coming, uh, at the three nanometer process, maybe even ahead of where the iPhone chips have been, which would be a first for the Mac version of Apple Silicon be
Leo Laporte (01:10:42):
Interesting. Yeah, that would be an interesting statement. Because right now it's a laggard, right? You put it first in the iPhone. Yes. And then you put it in the Mac late, like a lot later, maybe a year later. And that's, uh, even though we know they're different, you know, they're, they're really different chips. Uh, it would be kind of nice for the Mac to get the pride of place for once.
Jason Snell (01:11:00):
Yeah, it would, it would be great. And, and for people who might say, well, what about the iPhone? The iPhone's the most important. The fact is the iPhone uses an a chipp, right? And other than nerds who are saying, well, what kind of core is in there, right? The rest of us, if, if, if Apple says, no, no, for this time around, we're actually gonna do the new cores and a Mac first, and then the new cores will come to the iPhone later. I don't think it really matters in the end. No, it, but it would be fun to see, right? That rather than debuting your cores and your phone and then having it come to your computers later, maybe this time around, whether it's CPU cores or g p cores or both, uh, and this new three nanometer process that they're not on for the iPhone, uh, to have it debut in the M three, that would be pretty sweet. And I, I, it feels right to me, it feels like this, the M two was germin, mark Goman at Bloomberg called it a stop gap. But it feels kind of like M one and M two. Were all about just like getting on apple silicon. And then M three is obviously the next wave of like, well now we're taking the process size down and we're gonna do some next generation stuff. And that's really exciting that, that might be this summer. Um, that's really exciting.
Leo Laporte (01:12:03):
We know that, uh, T S M C is what we've heard that T S M C is producing these, uh, three nanometer, uh, chips. The M three s now 45,000 wafers, uh, a month start in the volume that you'd need, frankly, for an iPhone. But it might be in the volume you'd need for a Mac. So the So ger, so there's somewhat of a war. Ming Chio says, no, no, no, no. The 15 inch MacBook, or is it MacBook Air? We don't know what it's gonna be called. We'll have an M two or M two PRO in it. Germin says, I I Huron, it's gonna be, uh, an M three, uh, which would really screw up my buying plans. There's also, of course, the issue of a 24 inch iMac. He says that's coming. Uh, he says with an
Jason Snell (01:12:49):
M three, this
Leo Laporte (01:12:49):
Is a germin with M three. He says, Apple's scheduled to launch about three New max between late spring and summer. Summer being WW c I think. Yes.
Jason Snell (01:12:58):
Uh, uh, summer. Would I I think that's like late. I mean, WWC is almost late spring actually,
Leo Laporte (01:13:03):
Right? It's early June. So, yeah. Okay. Uh, so he says, I am told Apple is launching three New Mac between late spring and summer. Those three models are likely to be the first 15 inch MacBook Air J five 15, the first Mac Pro. Oh yeah. The Mac Pro. Whatever happened to that with homegrown Apple chips, the J 180 and an update to the 13 inch MacBook Air, the J five 13. And he says, the remaining question is, which processors will these run? We already know the Mac Pro will include the M two Ultra. Oh, do we know that? Okay. Which will provide a 24 CPU course, 76 graphic course top out, uh, with 192 gigabytes of ram. We also know that Apple's developed the next iMac on the same timeline as the M three chip. So Mark says, I'd expect it. That means, by the way, he's not, this is not what he's heard. This is what he's predicting. So I expect it to be one of the company's first M three. It's so important. And Renee Richie told us how to read mark's. That's right. Mark's rumors. So, uh, this is his thinking, not his sources. That would be
Jason Snell (01:14:13):
Right. When he, when he was at nine to five, it was all sources. But Bloomberg is like, but the narrative, you must have the narrative. Yeah. And so now he has to do that kind of like, well, I expect, and I expect
Leo Laporte (01:14:22):
It to be one of the company's first M three based machines. This is the Yeah. The iMac. But the chip destined for the new MacBook Air models is slightly less clear. And remember that Quo said, M two Germin says if those machines launch in a few months of the M two chip, they'll quickly become outdated. That's what you were saying, Jason. Right. A 15 inch MacBook Air with an M two may still excite consumers, but a new M two 13 inch MacBook Air is unlikely be compelling. We already have an M two 13 inch MacBook. Yeah.
Jason Snell (01:14:53):
That, that's the part that I thought was especially perplexing is Mark Gorman's report says there's gonna be a new MacBook Air model, and he doesn't know whether it'll be an M two or an M threes. Right. Mark's a smart guy, but duh, of course it's an M three. Like what, what, unless like, no, it's the same, but they changed the colors or something. Like that's a, that's a dumb dumb product bother. So why bother? So the MacBook error has gotta be an M three, right? So the question really is, do you release an M two 15 inch laptop knowing it's gonna be surpassed by an M three and just figuring, look, people are just gonna want the 15 inch laptop, they're not gonna care. Or do you hold onto that product A and release it at the same time? I think the reason you would release it early is because you've been making them for a while now and they're on another production track and you need to get 'em out the door and they just didn't line up.
And a, as we've seen with the iPad, especially, apple is actually not afraid to release products in a sequence that don't make sense. Right. Because they've done it when they have to with other products that, that are in like the, like the iPad that's got the weird pencil and, but it's got the good, uh, placement of the camera and like they're all over the place with that. And sometimes that has to do with whatever is happening on the inside in terms of manufacturing. So it may be that they're, you know, they're remaining in two chips are gonna go on this 15 inch laptop, and then, then separately they've got this new air and they, and they'll say to themselves, yeah, yeah, yeah, in the fall or the winter, we'll put the M three in that 15 inch laptop too. But we're not worried about it for now. Are they
Leo Laporte (01:16:23):
Trying to get on Aly scenario? Is it in the, is it in their interest? I understand now in the early days you're kind of stagger stepping, but eventually you'd want to do a yearly cadence of all this stuff.
Jason Snell (01:16:33):
Yeah. Germin says, I mean, Germin says it weirdly. He says they, they have said they want to go on a yearly cadence and I, no, they've never said that for the M series chip, but given that the Aeries is on a yearly cadence, I think it would be great cuz the alternatives are either these 18 months cadences where you have to skip certain generations. Two years is too far. So yeah, I, I think in the end, what they'd like and what we're starting to see is maybe they want the chips every year. Um, but the, some of the models skip years, right? So the iMac skipped a year. Maybe the Mac Studio skips a year. The Mac Pro will certainly skip a year. And so maybe you'll end up in a situation like MacBook Air and MacBook Pro get updated every year. And then at MAC Mini and, and iMac and a few other models. It's a, it's an every other year kind of thing. And that would would not be, that's where they
Leo Laporte (01:17:20):
At all. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I guess some of this is dependent just as they used to be dependent on Intel. They're now dependent on T S M C and what T M C S M C can do. But they, the story was they had bought up all the three nanometer chips. Yeah. So they got 'em, uh, however many that is. Uh, so he says, last year Apple introduced the first M two chip at WW d c in June. If Apple were to stick, again, this is his speculation to stick to last year's schedule. An M three chip alongside a new MacBook Air at WWDC 23 would make sense. The company could then follow up with the M three iMac later in the year. And the M three PRO and M three max based MacBook Pros in 2024. He says the M three will also land next year. And a revamped, this is the most exciting paragraph, frankly, in a revamped iPad Pro with OD screens scheduled for the first half of 2024. And looking further into the future, even more exciting Mac upgrades as early as 2025. And this is the line I like that likely includes the first MacBook with OD screens and touch support. Hmm. That's an interesting roadmap. Again, this is Mark's speculation. You have to go back a few paragraphs to where he's been told things
Jason Snell (01:18:39):
And he's previously reported that about the touch that they were working
Leo Laporte (01:18:42):
On that. Yeah. We
Jason Snell (01:18:43):
So some of that, some of that is in his Yeah, it's good to get, we're we're getting out the 2025 rumors now. I mean, we'll get Why not? We can. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (01:18:50):
I saved him for the second half of the show. It's below the fold. We can talk about it now. Um, I would
Jason Snell (01:18:57):
And for the next two years,
Leo Laporte (01:18:58):
<laugh>. Yeah, I know
Andy Ihnatko (01:18:59):
Leo Laporte (01:19:02):
I would, I mean, I just bought the M two, uh, MacBook Air and I love it as you did. It's
Jason Snell (01:19:06):
Great. It's great. Amazing. Yeah. It's so good.
Leo Laporte (01:19:09):
Uh, but boy, I, I also was, I would have if I could have, but I, I needed it, but I would would've hold it held off for an M three. I'm very excited. I feel like the M three is the next big leap, not the M two, the M two, as you said, is a stop cap.
Andy Ihnatko (01:19:24):
And, and when you get to the bottom of the list, it's always that. Do you need a Mac now? Yes. Okay, then get it back now. Oh yeah. There's, there's no, there's, there isn't year.
Leo Laporte (01:19:33):
There's no
Andy Ihnatko (01:19:34):
Randy, so long as you didn't find that one page on the, on the Apple store that still has an Intel, uh, Intel c P O in it. <laugh>. There's nothing. Cause I'm, I mean, it would, it would bum me, it would bum bum me out if they came out with an M three based MAC Mini, like in October. Cuz I'm almost certainly gonna be buying one like in the spring. But it's like, I so desperately need a a a A an A Mac mini right now, and it's gonna be so much of a leap over what I want to do. Exactly. And it's gonna have a good five Exactly. 10 years worth of life. But it, yeah. But again, if it's, if they, if they say, oh, apple bought, Andy bought his, his, his, his Mac in April, time to introduce a new one in May.
Leo Laporte (01:20:09):
Well that was my life life story for decades. Right. <laugh>
Alex Lindsay (01:20:12):
And, and I, it's
Andy Ihnatko (01:20:14):
Hard not to take that personally.
Alex Lindsay (01:20:15):
Yeah. I think that what I really love about the Mac Minis, I have so many of them, is that you buy them. They still do what they, what they want 'em to do. You can use them. I have, I literally have one here that is 12 years old. Wow. And it, and what it does is this, see, this my, my little, my little, that's
Leo Laporte (01:20:32):
All. Yeah. That's all it
Alex Lindsay (01:20:33):
Does. It sits there and 12 years later,
Leo Laporte (01:20:35):
It Yeah. We have an old one in the conference, conference room for our Zoom meeting. Yeah. They're great. They just,
Alex Lindsay (01:20:40):
And so they, they, and they don't have to do all the other things. I didn't pay it extra. I paid for a CPU and some connections. Right. And some, you know, and, and it's, and I, I buy them all the time and I buy them without a lot of, uh, regret because I know that I'll just keep using them for what they're, what they're good at. And the M one s and the m and I now have an M two. Uh, I'm gonna use 'em for a long, I mean, I'll use 'em for another decade. Yeah.
Andy Ihnatko (01:21:01):
Part part of the excitement about getting a New MAC mini is knowing that, uh, my, uh, 2012 Mac mini that's gonna be replacing won't be going into storage or won't be given away. It's the excitement is, Ooh, what can, now, now what, what can I use this MAC Mini for? If it's just something that's gonna be on all the time and able to do just background processes. It's like, Ooh, do I, do I dare have a Mac Mini as my plex server? Like, no, no, no. That's, that's, it's, that's not, that's not enough. That's not enough for it to do. Let's have a Yeah. It's, it's
Alex Lindsay (01:21:27):
Exciting. It's, you know, we, because we had kits that had, uh, you know, 12 Mac Minis at a time because they're just glue. They, they did all of our scopes audio scope, there's Mac Minis for the audio scopes of Mac Minis for the video scopes, MAC Mini for all these other things. And so we just have them a wa we're a wash with Mac Minis and we always ha we have been for the last decade. And they're just, I, again, that's why I'm always like, this is the <laugh> the easiest thing for me to buy. And then everything else, I'm like, well, how long is that gonna last? And what am I gonna do with that? You know?
Leo Laporte (01:21:57):
So the, so the 13 inch MacBook Air with the M two came out in July, so it would be almost a year if they announced, uh, an M three based version in June,
Jason Snell (01:22:07):
A WW G c, which is when they announced the error, it would be exactly a year. That's Yeah. Yeah,
Leo Laporte (01:22:11):
For sure. And then, uh, a 15, it would make sense, uh, to, to wait till then the pr here's the problem. Ross Young, another supply chain guy who is usually very accurate, says the 15 is gonna be in April. Um,
Jason Snell (01:22:28):
So Yeah. And they're looking at the factories. Right. So unless something weird happened, uh, and there's no M three wouldn't be ready
Leo Laporte (01:22:34):
For him. It couldn't be an M three if that's the case. Yeah. Yeah. If they're building him now for an April release, uh, <laugh>, he's turning into Jim Dow Rebel, there's his tweet. Yep. <laugh>. Yep.
Andy Ihnatko (01:22:49):
He forgot to renew the trademark
Leo Laporte (01:22:52):
<laugh>. Um, so I don't know who, what do we think, what do we, uh, what, what is, uh, what is our consensus? I, you know, I'm, I'm gonna assume that you don't have the same sources as, uh, Germin Russ Young isn't calling you on the phone. And No, I'm
Jason Snell (01:23:09):
Not. I'm, I'm not rooting around in those factories either. Yeah. But my, my gut feeling is that that 15 has been rumored for so long. So it's reading the rumors. Right. I think that 15 inch laptop is real and an M two and is gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah. And then the, and and it's the, and what's causing the confusion is we're watching the end of the M two cycle butt up against the beginning of the M three cycle. Right. And so this is a, this is a follow on. Remember that air got really delayed too. So I suspect that the air's delay led to the, uh, 15 inch laptop delay and has slid it all the way back to almost when they're ready to, to turn it over to M three. But that's my guess. And I think the truth is, and somebody in the, uh, in our IRC chat said this point, and I think they're absolutely right, people who are buying Apple's consumer level laptops, the MacBook Air, whether it's the 13 or the 15, do not deeply, deeply care about specks at a level where they're gonna necessarily shy away from an M two 15 inch laptop just because there's also an M three 13 inch laptop.
Because what's gonna motivate them to buy that 15 inch laptop is not M two versus M three. It's the screen size. Right. That's what's gonna motivate them. So well, I think in the end, they won't lose a lot of of sales for that. So I think that's most likely. And then the 13 inch will just get the M three this summer and, and motor along.
Alex Lindsay (01:24:25):
I mean, I think when you're buying it, I mean with the air, I think a lot of the consumers are just looking at what bag it fits in. You know, like what does it Absolutely. Like, I mean, cause I have a bag that doesn't, the reason I got the 14 inches I have a bag doesn't fit the 16 inch. Now I'm not happy with the 14 inch for me, but, but I, but I bought it. I'll never
Leo Laporte (01:24:39):
Let your bag dictate your purchases. If you're not
Jason Snell (01:24:43):
Pro though. If you're not a pro. And they all do, they all do what you want if you're not a pro. So when the, and I think that's the motivation behind that 15 inch laptop if it does exist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, is it really, it's just like some people just want a bigger screen screen. You don't wanna pay two, two grand for a MacBook Pro still 17 or, or even more for the 16 inch. They just want a bigger screen on a, on what, and probably it comes from people buying the MacBook Air and, and Apple going to them in a survey and saying like, what would you change? And the answer being, I'd like a bigger screen. Right. And then they're like, okay, that's an interesting idea. So I think it'll just be, I mean, I'm curious what Andy and Alex think, but that's, if I had to bet that would be my bet is that it's just gonna be an M two and they'll do the M three later.
Alex Lindsay (01:25:22):
Yeah, I think so.
Andy Ihnatko (01:25:24):
I agree. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm interested to hear what people have to say about how, I mean, Alex uh, mentioned like the, the famous prison lunch tray, uh, MacBook, like the 17 inch, which is when you, when you, you, you, you, the number 17 is a number you're familiar with. You think you have an idea of how big this MacBook is until the first time you actually see one and you're like though, no, that's, that's bigger than Is that, I think I, I think is that 17 feet or 17 inches? Oh, and I'm always, I'm, I'm always curious about like, uh, are is there a poor, is there a mobile external display solution that would do the trick for you for, for having extra screen real estate? You, when you just want, cause 17, it's, it's a hard thing. You really do need a special bag to carry this around and it's not gonna fit in anything. I'll
Alex Lindsay (01:26:12):
Put in my backpack. I mean, I, I have a rush 24 that I would all that everything. I mean, I put two or three laptops in, you know, into my, into my rush. 24, I will admit three.
Andy Ihnatko (01:26:19):
What you, you, you have a backpack that could, that could serve you for like two months. Yeah. After the collapse of all civilization. So that's
Alex Lindsay (01:26:25):
The, the be the best part about the four. I will say the one thing about the 14 inch 14 inch is it fits in that little pad against your back with an i with an iPad. Like you put 'em both in there and that's where I stick 'em. But the, um, but the 17 inch, the big thing was is that you, you, you get to a location, you open it up and you don't have to do anything else. And I don't figure out how to plug things in or where to plug things in. I just open it up. It's on, it's, it's, you know, it's, it, it's gonna have a big battery. It's gonna last a long time. If I'm on a flight, I could do real work, you know? So, um, assuming that I'm not in economy economy, but I Yeah, exactly. When, when I had a 17 inch, I was mostly not an economy. So, um, so the uh, yeah,
Leo Laporte (01:27:01):
This cause the case, right? The bigger the laptop, well the bigger the seat <laugh>.
Andy Ihnatko (01:27:06):
Well you have a lot of apologies to make in the, you're in the center, you're in the center seat. A lot of apologies to make that person the left
Alex Lindsay (01:27:11):
And the right. No, the, the thing is, is that I, I was, when I was, when I had a 17 inch, I will say what came with the 17 inch is a maniacal obsession with the exit row. So I, I always knew where the, I, I was always like waiting right to when I could get under the exit row. Cause back then you had to like go the day before and you know, go online and, and like the moment I was able to do what I would get on the exit row so I could get that extra so I could open it up. Cause you couldn't open the 17 inch in e economy. Uh, or you'd be afraid if someone was gonna open it against you. But the bottom line is you could open it up, you could open up a couple windows, you could do what you needed to do.
And it was just, and it was powerful and it did all the things it needed to do. And I, I can only imagine what an M two or M three would, um, with, you know, the kind of memory. I mean battery, the battery probably lasts 20, 20, 20 or 30 hours on a 17 inch <laugh>. Um, and so it would be, you know, it'd be great. Um, the 16 inch will be fine, is fine. Um, the, um, but, but the 17 inch was a great, was a great computer for a lot of us that were doing work on the road, like really doing like graphic Right. Work on the road. Um, the 17 inch was, was really special. But nothing's ever been,
Leo Laporte (01:28:15):
I think the 16 new small bezels and stuff will come pretty close to scratching that itch. I would
Alex Lindsay (01:28:20):
Think. It might. It might. It might. Yeah. If, if I
Leo Laporte (01:28:23):
Is 24 gigs enough Ram do you want more? You want more, don't you?
Alex Lindsay (01:28:27):
Yeah, I would always want more, but I mean, I think 32 is a good number for a lot of those things. But 24 is not too bad. You can do on a laptop. Most of what you're gonna do on a laptop, it's not, it's enough. I'll tell the only
Leo Laporte (01:28:36):
You not the only reason I want, I have 24 in my M two MacBook gear, but I, the only reason I'd want more is cuz I'm running Windows and uh, there's an, you know, VM running that you would like to have a little extra ramp for that.
Alex Lindsay (01:28:48):
I mean, there's definitely things like I have, uh, you know, I have some processes that I do that will not run under 64 gigs. Like where they, they literally won't, it just says there's not enough ramp. Like I can't, I can't do what you need me to do without more ram. So those are photogrammetry and some, some other calculation stuff that is required that it needs to load everything into ram or it starts swapping horribly, you know. So, um, those are things that where the more RAM makes makes a difference. But it's usually a lot of texture maps or a lot of parallel processes or a lot of other things that are pretty deep edge cases. I think most people are, are fine with
Leo Laporte (01:29:23):
Without 'em. The thing that makes me drool, and I'm still gonna root for it, is that June, come June WWDC Apple announces a 15 inch MacBook Air with an M three chip in it and 32 gigs of ram.
Alex Lindsay (01:29:34):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I still think that the pro, I think the pro is probably what I would expect that dub dubb, you know, like that's the thing that I think is gonna be the big, I think the pro potentially the goggles
Leo Laporte (01:29:44):
Actually I would buy the pro, it's not much thicker than the air and it has all those ports. So I guess I could Oh,
Alex Lindsay (01:29:49):
Alright. I mean the Pro Pro talk me into it. I mean the big pro
Leo Laporte (01:29:52):
Oh, the Mac Pro.
Alex Lindsay (01:29:53):
I think Mac Pro is the one that works. Oh, only the MacBook? Well
Leo Laporte (01:29:57):
That's for developers. Yeah.
Alex Lindsay (01:29:59):
I mean that's when the, when the pro that we have now I believe was at a, at a WWC is when it was announced.
Leo Laporte (01:30:05):
Yeah. So you think they'll do that to the exclusion of everything else and then, and then like a month later.
Alex Lindsay (01:30:09):
And I think that the goggles might be out the goggles
Jason Snell (01:30:11):
If we're gonna That's that. Yeah. You
Leo Laporte (01:30:13):
Know what, they're gonna have a lot to talk about. You're right. You don't want to fill it up with too much stuff.
Alex Lindsay (01:30:16):
Yeah. Yeah. And that'd be the only reason I wouldn't be surprised if they did the pro earlier just to get it out of the way <laugh>, you know, like two weeks before, do a little event or a month before do an event, get the pro out of the way. If, if they're gonna do the, the goggles they're gonna wanna talk about as little as possible, um, you know, because that's gonna be everything for them. So if, if they're doing that, if, if it doesn't happen this year, then we get to wait another year for ar you know, like, because it's the, the, the time to an, the possibly the time to re announce it is March or April, the, to wet, you know, wet everybody's appetite for WW dc But otherwise it's going to be WWC is when you announce the goggles, you put it out as a developer, you tell people it's gonna ship for developers only in September or October and, and you kind of prep everybody with all the new, um, classes of code
Jason Snell (01:30:59):
That that reports out there already. Right. I mean, I think we're pretty much guaranteed that WW C is gonna be it unless it slips further if it works and the Mac Yeah. If it works. And the Mac, I I've, I I've heard, you know, I've heard from people who, who have heard from other people who've said that it's basically ready to go. Yeah. I mean,
Alex Lindsay (01:31:13):
We have to remember there was a, there was a, there was an app, there was a, there was a Wwtc where there were all the graphics were in the shape of an Apple TV <laugh> and no. And
Jason Snell (01:31:23):
Now you never know. Never no Apple
Alex Lindsay (01:31:26):
Tv. Like, like kinda like there was, I was like, don't
Jason Snell (01:31:29):
Count your chickens before their hatch. But I, I know the Mac, the Mac Pro would be perfect for WWE C. Right. Because that's the audience for it. And also I would, I would argue that there, there is something to be said for releasing your M two Ultra, but still M two based MAC Pro, a little in, in advance of you flipping the calendar over to mj.
Leo Laporte (01:31:47):
Yes. That's a good point. Don't mention M no Xing on the M three
Alex Lindsay (01:31:51):
I. I'll be really interested to see if the Mac Pro lets you swap the, the processor out. Yeah. If it, if it, yeah, that's, that would be just,
Leo Laporte (01:32:00):
It's enough for see that you could do that, you're thinking. Yeah.
Alex Lindsay (01:32:03):
Andy Ihnatko (01:32:03):
Yeah. And, and it'll be part of the ongoing discussion of how does Apple define the word pro these days? And one of the things that is still on the books is, does pro mean it's on the desktop? It means that you can expand it later on, or you can reconfigure it as your needs change. Or, you know, if you're, if you're spending, if, if you're spending, uh, uh, $10,000 for workstation where just the case itself has an $800 bill of materials, <laugh> should, should you be okay to be able to replace this old processor with a new one? It
Leo Laporte (01:32:33):
Is a good, uh, advantage of unified memory that, that is now on the, on the d on the die. So
Alex Lindsay (01:32:40):
It could put it in a card. I mean, some kind of card that Yeah,
Leo Laporte (01:32:43):
As long as the bus is fast enough for disc io, it doesn't have to be fast enough for RAM anymore. Right. Or GPU anymore. So it does make sense. You could have a daughter card that is a cpu and the RAM and the gpu, those are all on a fast, fast, fast internal bus. And the drives don't have to be,
Alex Lindsay (01:33:03):
Well, it's not, it's not just drives. It's, it's having P C I E, you know, like pc PCI cards
Leo Laporte (01:33:07):
Are PC four, right? Pci, yeah.
Alex Lindsay (01:33:10):
So you'd have being able to add four to six cards, being able to have, um, you know, you don't, not much ramp, you know, but external ramp, I mean, being able to swap out drives, have external cards and have a lot of IO in it is, is a lot, is a very valuable. And the ability to switch that chip out or just swap that card or switch the card out would be a huge value. Um, as far as a pro pro app or a pro piece
Leo Laporte (01:33:32):
Hardware. No kidding. And, and totally doable because a unified memory and unified G P U totally doable. I, I think, right. Does p get complicated if the, huh?
Alex Lindsay (01:33:43):
It works in my head.
Leo Laporte (01:33:45):
Works in my head. It works perfect. Perfectly.
Alex Lindsay (01:33:46):
Yeah. It so well, so,
Leo Laporte (01:33:47):
Well, so amazing show title <laugh>. So amazing. It works in my head. Apple has released, uh, a 600 megabyte firmware update for your studio display, <laugh>, uh, it's basically an iPhone with a, with a giant screen
Jason Snell (01:34:05):
Leo Laporte (01:34:05):
Update. Yeah. Uh, this is beta firmware, but, uh, yes, sir. So you ha do you have a studio display who has a studio? Anybody? I do. And, uh, and you're on the beta.
Jason Snell (01:34:15):
I am not on the beta, so I don't know what beta goodness I'm missing.
Leo Laporte (01:34:18):
This is beta two is screen, uh, 600 megabytes is the goodness. Uh,
Alex Lindsay (01:34:23):
Yeah. You're missing 600 megabytes.
Leo Laporte (01:34:24):
No release notes, no clues as to what's changed or improved with the release. According a nine to five Mac public build will be coming out later, and at that point, they will have to put out release notes.
Andy Ihnatko (01:34:36):
Yeah. I'm s you know, I'm still fascinated by why that display runs iOS that I, I'm, I'm sure there are all kinds of efficiencies they can get. I'm sure that saves them some, some problems running f running firmware. But I think all of us are still thinking the about, ooh, what are they building? What are they, what up? What, how are they gonna train? What's gonna happen in 2024? An update that says, congratulations, you now have an augmented reality, uh, <laugh> augmented reality, uh, uh, uh, display target, or congratulations, you now have also a completely working Apple tv. Or you now have an ex, you now have an independent iOS, uh, uh, uh, you have now, you know, something can, that can side load. Excuse me. You now have something that can independently run iOS apps, uh, as to offload some of the processing power off of your iPad, if you're using that as a productivity thing. I'm still flabbergasted as to what this thing could do running iOS.
Leo Laporte (01:35:34):
And, uh, finally, before we get to the picks of the week, some great talented pianist and composer from Toronto has turned the iPhone alarm into an entire concerto <laugh>, and posted it on Insta. Let's see how many, uh, takedowns I can get for playing this <laugh>. We'll just give it a shot and see. Ooh, I like s Jazzy. I could dance to that.
Andy Ihnatko (01:36:19):
It's like the iPhones and credits music, the
Jason Snell (01:36:21):
Love theme from iPhone,
Leo Laporte (01:36:23):
The love theme from the iPhone
Andy Ihnatko (01:36:25):
People, Bryson
Leo Laporte (01:36:27):
<laugh>. It's a little more, it's dramatic. I think it's adding some backstory to the iPhone. You know, some drama, like maybe some broken hearts love gone wrong, but it
Andy Ihnatko (01:36:41):
All side load on app
Leo Laporte (01:36:42):
Ends in a redeeming third act on the iPhone, says goodbye to the iPod.
Andy Ihnatko (01:36:50):
Of course, of course. You, you, you know, the, you know, the problem with this composition, if you're playing it in concert, how will you know that someone forgot to turn off their phone? How scold the property
Leo Laporte (01:36:59):
<laugh> that apparently happened. Uh,
Andy Ihnatko (01:37:03):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was a famous YouTube video of someone. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (01:37:07):
New York Philharmonic Orchestra in 2012 Marimba. Uh, so there you go. This is Tony Ann. And, uh, I immediately, uh, opened Downey and, uh, extracted the audio from this. I'm trying to decide if I should make it my ring tone. It seems a little over ambitious, perhaps for a, for a ring tone. 18 million views on reel. It's been liked 1.3 million times. Uh, and now just add one moreThe,
Is that the, uh, they're saying on IOR that it's the alarm? Is that the alarm? I don't hear that as an alarm. I thought it was a ringtone, but anyway. Yeah, it's now an alarm, I guess on on six. Yeah. It's a ringtone, isn't it? Yeah. It should be played on a miba, though. Let's face it. Let's face it, <laugh>. I didn't know this, but apparently, uh, this is John Anthony Desto writing at, uh, Apples never revealed the creator in origins of maba, although in a 2013 article by Forbes, Brian Roel notes the huge similarities between MABA from the original iPhone and Orchestra Mamba digital instrument from Garage Band Jam Pack, four Symphony Pack instruments released in 2005. So, uh, uh, Rey makes a conclusion that garage band's software developer Gerhard Lingling, could be the original creator of Mamba. Wouldn't that be funny if the kind of the distinctive world famous iPhone ringtone was created in Garage Band?
Andy Ihnatko (01:38:40):
It would be, it would be even funnier if it were like a later movement of, uh, a classical piece that is well known to like classical heads. And so, and, and kinda like how the Lone Ranger theme, like, was only, only got stolen away from, uh, the original composer where it became the lone Ranger theme. It's like now it's like, oh, this used to be a beautiful piece of music that I wrote my PhD thesis on, and it was art. But now it's just the ringtone that everybody gets annoyed by.
Jason Snell (01:39:06):
Fun, funny story. My, uh, RingTel Richard. Thank you. My, uh, washing machine, uh, which was a Samsung. Yeah. Uh, plays this song when it's done. And I, I've invented, yeah, I've invented lyrics for it. Right? <laugh>, like, and now my watch is done. I'm am giving you the new clothes, it
Andy Ihnatko (01:39:24):
Turns out. So Jaunty.
Jason Snell (01:39:25):
Yes. That is Schubert. It is called Def Def Flore. You can get orchestras and things playing it, and it nothing funnier than hearing an orchestra play your washing machine song. Uh, so yeah, they're, they're out there. They're it, Andy is telling the truth. It's a real thing. Samsung.
Leo Laporte (01:39:40):
Samsung really loves having very music. Actually, all of my Japanese, uh, appliances are very,
Jason Snell (01:39:47):
Or yeah, all the, all the, all the Asians, especially Korean appliances, like to play music at the end. Yeah,
Alex Lindsay (01:39:52):
Absolutely. I have Samsung, um, I have the Samsung washer and dryer, and then I have, uh, the, you know, a rice cooker and a water boiler. And the sa and I have, and everything sings to me. Oh, yeah. Like, whenever it's there, my
Leo Laporte (01:40:05):
Rice cooker plays Twinkle twinkle Little A star. Yeah.
Alex Lindsay (01:40:09):
Leo Laporte (01:40:09):
Then is dear the Fre.
Jason Snell (01:40:13):
Yep. Which is like the, the, the trout or something is the name Trout.
Leo Laporte (01:40:19):
Okay. So there are lyrics. Do you sing this?
Jason Snell (01:40:24):
I have no, I I, mine are more laundry themed.
Andy Ihnatko (01:40:29):
Jason Snell (01:40:31):
Lemme tell you, the thing about the Samsung implementation is it goes on forever and it gets to the end and you think it's over, and then it keeps going. Right? That's the best. And you're like, what are you doing, Samsung? Why did you have rep at the end?
Leo Laporte (01:40:48):
A little rep?
Jason Snell (01:40:49):
It's amazing. It's, I mean, I, I it's just so charming that obviously there is a philosophy there that's like, we want our, our appliances to be friendly and part of your home. And one of the things that they'll do is they'll play music to you not thinking like they'll play the same, uh, 18 notes through their littlespeaker every time you press the power button for as long as you have the washing machine, right? Like, maybe not, maybe don't do that.
Andy Ihnatko (01:41:13):
<laugh> a while, a while ago, my, uh, my Google Mac speaker, I got a firmer update so that when you connect to it used to make this really, like, loud, like bass note, all right, now and now, and now it does. Now it does this arpeggio that to my mind, sounds exactly like the intro, like little flourish before, uh, uh, the song in Hamilton, you'll be back. So I always imagine like my, now my, my, I had to rename my speaker King George, because
We'll be back, we'll be back.
Leo Laporte (01:41:41):
Wait and see.
Andy Ihnatko (01:41:43):
Human brains are weird, man. You'll
Leo Laporte (01:41:44):
Remember you belong
Andy Ihnatko (01:41:46):
Leo Laporte (01:41:48):
Jason Snell (01:41:50):
And now your laundry's done, and now your laundry done.
Leo Laporte (01:41:54):
<laugh> guys, uh,
<laugh>, uh, just a reminder that if you were using Twitter if, or tweet bot, uh, and of course, uh, Twitter, uh, unceremoniously pulled the plug on those apps, apple, uh, requires them to offer you a refund for any outstanding time. But those companies are small, and they are, uh, beloved by our community. And they have asked, uh, that you not ask for your refund. It could put them out of, they could literally, uh, put them out of business. Uh, both apps now have, uh, screens. Here's the Twitter terrific screen thanks to John Gruber explaining that you have a choice. And if you have an active subscription, apple says, you know, you, you have to offer a refund. But they give you a button that says, you know, I'm satisfied with what I got out of Twitter riff. And I do not want a refund at this time.
Andy Ihnatko (01:42:52):
Jason Snell (01:42:53):
It's all just gonna get charged against the company. And they're gonna have a huge, those refunds will, will kill
Leo Laporte (01:42:59):
Them. Yeah. They're not big companies. Um, so I would suggest, as does Gruber, as do all of us, here's Tap Botts. Now, one of the things, tap Botts is lucky cuz they, they had Ivory, which is a Mastodon version of TWiT, of Tweet Bott, which is a great app. Uh, so you could transfer your subscription to Ivory, which is what I, uh, what I did, uh, just to support Ivory. But at the bottom of all of these, I want a prorated refund. Uh, you could do that, you could get your money back, but just a word of a note of warning, it's gonna be hard on those companies. And
Andy Ihnatko (01:43:33):
You gotta understand your, your, your money's not in No, listen, it's, it's, it's in their app, but in this device, it's
Leo Laporte (01:43:41):
Um, yeah. And, and listen, the way Elon did it was so horrific. Uh, but he's become the king of horrific, uh, he, they just pulled the plug without telling him, without warning him. A week later, they said, yay, we did it because you broke the rules. To which they said, but we've been here for so many years, what rule do we break? And then they hemmed and haw, and they said, uh, this one we just added yesterday. And, uh, it was just a nightmarish, bad faith thing. Uh, and certainly within Twitter's, uh, rights to say, we don't want third party apps, they actually have done it before. Uh, but to do it that way was not very nice. So just a, you know, a note, don't, if, if you can afford it, say, I don't need the refund, keep the money. You deserve it. Uh, all right.
Um, yeah, the, the king of horrific, isn't he <laugh>? Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Uh, let's, uh, take a little break. Speaking of, uh, subscriptions, I just want to do a little plug before we get to the picks of the week. First, I wanna do a thank you to our Club TWiT members, cuz a lot of them are making a big difference. As you might have noted, there was only one ad in this show, and this has been a problem over the last few months. Podcast advertising globally has declined. N P R uh, took a hit of 300 million and laid off, uh, 10% of their staff because of it. Um, and we are feeling the pinch just like everybody else, but we have something very special. We have a club and thank you to Club Twit members for making this making a big difference in, uh, in our lives.
The lives of our, uh, staff. You, what do you get for seven bucks? It's all the seven bucks a month. It's nothing. All, you know, a couple of cups of coffee, a buck less than a blue check on Twitter. And you get so much more ad free versions of all the shows. This showing more plus special shows on the Twi plus feed like Micah Sergeants, hands on McIntosh. We have a Hands on Windows show with Paul Thoro, the entitled Lennox Show. There's special events that go on in the Club all the time. We do triangulations. In fact, we could only do triangulation thanks to the Club because, uh, it's a show we don't do all the time, so there's no advertisers for it. Uh, it costs us money to do it, of course. Uh, but the Club members foot the bill. Thank you. Club members, seven bucks a month.
Oh, did I mention you also get access to the best darn social network in the world? Our Club TWiT Discord <laugh> with Elon as, uh, super Mario. So <laugh>, if The Discord is a great place to hang, not only during shows, and of course we're in the Mac Break weekly, um, chat. We have a stage where we can now give you a chance to ask questions. And we have conversations about every topic that, uh, club TWI members like to talk about. From beer, wine cocktails, to coating to comics, to Linux to movies and music and software and travel. It's all in there. And great conversations going on all the time. I hang out in the coding, uh, section. We have some great coders in there and, uh, they are an inspiration to me. So that's my, that's my pitch. I'm not very good at begging.
Um, uh, you know, I hate pledge breaks on public broadcasting, but honestly, I'm only doing it cuz we need it. Twit tv slash Club TWiT, thank you so much, uh, for your support. Oh, and brand new now is this club only. So I also have a big announcement. Thank you for reminding me. John Ashley, uh, thanks to club members. Home Theater Geeks is back. It is a club only show, uh, every Thursday you can actually listen in as Scott and his guests talk about home theater. This was a show that many of you asked us to bring back. And thanks to the donations of very generous donations of Club TWiT members, uh, we have now brought Scott Wilkinson's Home Theater geeks back, uh, in the club. Uh, alright, so thank you. Club TWiT. Members TWIT tv slash Club TWiT. Hey everybody. Leo Laport here. I am the, uh, founder and one of the hosts at the TWiT Podcast Network.
I wanna talk to you a little bit about what we do here at TWiT because I think it's unique and I think for anybody who is, uh, bringing a product or a service to a tech audience, you need to know about what we do Here at TWiT, we've built an amazing audience of engaged, intelligent, affluent listeners who listen to us and trust us when we recommend a product. Our mission statement is TWiT, is to build a highly engaged community of tech enthusiasts. Well already you should be, your ears should be perking up at that because highly engaged is good for you. Tech enthusiasts, if that's who you're looking for, this is the place we do it by offering 'em the knowledge they need to understand and use technology in today's world. And I hear from our audience all the time, part of that knowledge comes from our advertisers.
We are very careful. We pick advertisers with great products, great services with integrity, and introduce them to our audience with authenticity, uh, and genuine enthusiasm. And that makes our host Red Ads different from anything else you can buy. We are literally bringing you to the attention of our audience and giving you a big fat endorsement. We like to create partnerships with trusted brands, brands who are in it for the long run, long-term partners that want to grow with us. And we have so many great success stories. Tim Broom, who founded it Pro TV in 2013, started advertising with us on day one, has been with us ever since. He said, quote, we would not be where we are today without the TWiT network. I think the proof is in the pudding. Advertisers like it Pro TV and Audible that have been with us for more than 10 years, they stick around because their ads work.
And honestly, isn't that why you're buying advertising? You get a lot with Twit. We have a very full service attitude. We almost think of it as kind of artisanal, uh, advertising, boutique advertising. You'll get a a full service continuity team, people who are on the phone with you, who are in touch with you, who support you from, with everything from copywriting to graphic design. So you are not alone in this. We embed our ads into the shows. They're not, they're not added later. They're part of the shows. In fact, often they're such a part of our shows that our other hosts will chime in on the ad saying, yeah, I love that. Or just the other day, <laugh>, one of our hosts said, man, I really gotta buy that <laugh>. That's an additional benefit to you because you're hearing people, our audience trusts saying, yeah, that sounds great.
Uh, we deliver always overdeliver on impressions. So you know, you're gonna get the impressions you expect. The ads are unique every time. We don't pre-record them and roll them in. We are genuinely doing those ads in the middle of the show. Uh, we'll give you great onboarding services, ad tech with pod sites that's free for direct clients. Gives you a lot of reporting, gives you a great idea of how well your ads are working. You'll get courtesy commercials. You actually can take our ads and share them across social media and landing pages. That really extends the reach. There are other free goodies too, including mentions in our weekly newsletter that sent to thousands of fans, engaged fans who really wanna see this stuff. We give you bonus ads and social media promotion too. So if you want to be a long-term partner, introduce your product to a savvy engaged tech audience, visit twit tv slash advertise.
Check out those testimonials. Mark McCreary is the c e o of authentic. You probably know 'em one of the biggest, uh, original podcast advertising companies. We've been with him for 16 years. Mark said the feedback from many advertisers over 16 years across a range of product categories, everything from razors to computers, is that if ads and podcasts are gonna work for a brand, they're gonna work on Twitch shows. I'm very proud of what we do because it's honest. It's got integrity, it's authentic, and it really is a great introduction to our audience of your brand. Our listeners are smart, they're engaged, they're tech savvy. They're dedicated to our network. And that's one of the reasons we only work with high integrity partners that we've personally and thoroughly vetted. I have absolute approval on everybody. If you've got a great product, I want to hear from you.
Elevate your brand by reaching out Break out of the advertising norm. Grow your brand with host Red ads on Visit for more details. Or you can email us, advertise at twit tv if you're ready to launch your campaign. Now, I can't wait to see your product, so give us a ring now it's time for our picks of the week. I'm gonna, I don't usually do a pick cuz the whole show is my pick. So there, but I I did wanna mention this cuz you, it's only good for a few more days and it's only for T-Mobile customers. But if you're a soccer fan, T-Mobile Tuesdays is offering a one year subscription to MLS season pass on Apple TV for free. You, you obviously have to be a uh, T-Mobile customer. Uh, but that was good for me cuz I actually would never pay for the MLS season pass. But getting it for free, I'm gonna watch some of it. I think it's good. So I just to mention, uh, only good through the 14th. So, uh, you got, you know, a few more days if you haven't done it yet, one more week, you need the T-Mobile Tuesday's app on your iPhone or Android phone to do that. Jason Snell your pick of the, and I had, this is not an app for T-Mobile. I have no association with T-Mobile except I'm a customer. Your pick of the week. Jason,
Jason Snell (01:53:35):
Um, hi. There's, the song was I was just a New Zealand. It's far away. Yes. And it's, it's in a
Leo Laporte (01:53:42):
Different day.
Jason Snell (01:53:43):
It's in a different day. In fact. Funny, uh, I, you look it up and it says it's plus 21, which is, uh, that's a lot to add, but you could also just subtract three and it's, that's a lot easier. Yeah, it's like, it's like going from New York to San Francisco. It's from San Francisco to New Zealand. It's right until we change, until we do spring forward, it'll be, uh, it'll be three hours, which is nice. Uh, but it's tomorrow, which is weird. So anyway, what I'm saying is time zones, how do they work? And, and if you don't know how time zones work, I recommend a really nice, uh, iOS and, uh, through, through Catalyst Macwas app called Zones, time zone conversion from Squi Collapse, uh, add in the cities that you care about. It shows you the times and the weather, I think actually. And the different places that you are.
Uh, we'll sync between your devices over the cloud. It'll give you little reminders. Very simple app, but it's nice. It does the job. Uh, and if you are somebody who is, who is just trying to do the map in your head or on your fingers for when the time zone, where am I? When is it? What time is it? How do I get there? Is it, where is it where you are? Can I call this person now? Are they gonna be there? Oh, it's daytime. Oh, but it's gonna be Saturday. That's confusing, right? Like time zones, they're very confusing. Use an app and then you'll be less confused and
Leo Laporte (01:54:55):
Be like the Insane Clown Posse and use, use it. Actually, I love this. It has an iMessage. Uh, uh, is it a, is a sticker. I don't know what you would call it, but you, so when you wanna set a time with somebody, you could say it's this time, your time, this time, my time. That's pretty cool. I like that. Yeah, Mac, I just
Jason Snell (01:55:15):
A real, real simple, nice, yeah. Friendly, helpful app. If you struggle with time zones or, or going to places that have weird time zones from
Leo Laporte (01:55:22):
Squirrel apps, l l p time zones, or sorry, zones,
Jason Snell (01:55:27):
Leo Laporte (01:55:27):
Time zone conversion. Uh, good luck finding it. <laugh>, that's always a, an adventure. Uh, you know what, go to our show notes. That's the best place. Tweet that tv slash mb w we'll put a link in the show notes, right? And then you can just jump right there.
Jason Snell (01:55:40):
I think if you search zones, it's the second one that comes up. Or,
Andy Ihnatko (01:55:43):
But yeah. Okay. Uh, Mr. Andy Ihnatko, pick of the week. Uh, mine's kind of a revisit of a previous pick, but there is news about the play date. We've talked about that a little earlier today about panics, like really quirky, interesting, uh, game, handheld game console. That's got a, it's got a crank. Um, it's, uh, the, the, I, Jason has one too. I, I gotta say I love this device. So great. I, I, I took, I did, I, after admit, I took a, I took a bit of a flutter on it because obviously you, you had, you had to pre, you had to pre-order it. It's not cheap. 180 bucks. Uh, plus it's like, okay, they've never done a mechanical device, uh, uh, a, an actual physical device before. Are they going to actually ship it? And the, oh my goodness, all the, there's so much drama over so many different like, uh, uh, retro style like game game systems that, you know, got a lot of, got a lot of interest and attention and investment, but then never shipped.
Uh, the only problem, the only it it does ship, the only problem is that it's so popular that if you order it today, you still have to wait until late 2023 in order to get it. But I absolutely love it. It's the, the build quality is, it's not cheap at all. It feels like a very high quality product. I thought that maybe this crank would be like the first thing to break, but it is solid as anything. Uh, people, people, uh, revere earlier were complaining that the screen is not backlit. That's a fair cup. But the thing is, it is like super, super, super co high contrast so that if you have any amount of light whatsoever, uh, it's gonna be very, very pretty and easy to read. And it's part of what makes it kind of unique. The fact that it's not, uh, the fact that it's not like another color display that's not terribly great, but maybe, okay.
And it also means that the battery lasts weeks and weeks and weeks and that it's super, super flat. And the games are exactly as I hope them to be. I, I'm not, I'm not the person who spends weeks on a $60 AAA game, getting myself sort of all like, worked up about making the next level or solving all the problems or speed running, anything like that. I want something that will give me a good half hour of amusement from time to time. I want something in my pocket. When I've got a day in the city, I know they gonna have to like, have, have, find little distractions, some fun throughout the day, absolutely everything that I want it to be. So I'm very, very happy with it. Uh, but two p two really, uh, uh, two really interesting pieces of news today. Today they announced that they have finally, they're on, they're on device, uh, game store called Catalog.
Uh, they're the develop the development system for this is really super and super open. You can go up for, since day one. You can go to and buy like third par or free, or do free or for pay third party games on this thing. And a lot of super creativity has gone into this stuff. So there's a lot of games on here, you won't see any place else. Uh, but now they have their own curated catalog alongside that. They're not locking anybody out. Uh, but it's, it's an easier way to find the super top quality games. And though the, the, the trailers for the information about it is a lot better than what you'll find on h i o. So super high of recommendation, uh, also recommendation. Maybe you wanna order it sooner rather than later. Because the other announcement they made today is that, uh, re remember that they planned this way before the, uh, right before Covid, way before supply line shortages.
And so they feel as though they have to raise the price by $20 starting in April. But they told, they're telling people about a month in advance that the price goes up on April 1st from 179 to $200. Uh, so if you are on the fence and you're sort of thinking about getting it, maybe you wanna order it right now. Uh, they do offer 100% refunds anytime before it ships. So that you can, if you can afford, if, if you can afford to park 180 bucks, uh, for several months, park it while you think about it. And if six months from now you decide that, eh, that was stupid, I don't really want this anymore, they will refund your money. Again, another thing that's different from this, this from other like retro <laugh> console, uh, projects or people take your money and then while they're gone, they're, they spend, they spend it trying to, trying to, uh, uh, pay the, pay the rental fee on the office furniture.
No, that's, uh, you, you can trust these people. So I, I do recommend you give it afloat. Uh, the, the only, the only other recommendation I'm gonna make is that, uh, you can, for an extra 20 bucks, uh, b buy this magnetic, uh, little cover for it. Uh, I absolutely recommend that you get it because, uh, I don't think the surface of this, uh, screen is gonna stand up to tossing it in your bag, tossing in your pocket willy-nilly. Uh, whereas if you put this on it, uh, this is, I've had this for several months now and there's just not a scratch on it. So that's definitely a good investment. I think it's the, this plus the case is 200 bucks, uh, at, at March prices. So again, high recommendation.
Leo Laporte (02:00:18):
I love it that Krista Morgan, uh, the, uh, panic video and podcasts hosts is wearing a Untitled Goose game. Sweater <laugh> in the video for the new, it's all connected. It's connected. It's all connected. Cuz this is of course from panic. Same people publish Untitled.
Andy Ihnatko (02:00:35):
Oh, I, I forgot to mention that. You do, you do get 24 games with it. They, they commissioned a season of games so that it's not as though like, but that, that was part of the risk, like mitigation that okay, at minimum, I know that I will be getting 24 games, like for like, so basically for seven and a half dollars each for a couple months. I get to, I get to play interesting games at the rate of two a week and I get a free player with it, so to speak. Uh, so that there's now a library about 400 games for it. So, uh, again, a lot of really creative people have done some great stuff. Not, not just stuff that uses the crank either. So the Crank isn't just like this gimmick that spawns a whole bunch of Oh, good. Another fishing game. Oh, oh good. A space fishing game. And now here's a fishing game in which you're fishing for. Okay, thank you.
Leo Laporte (02:01:16):
Play date If you would like to order Alex Lindsay, your pick of the week.
Alex Lindsay (02:01:25):
So, uh, you know, I got back into podcasting. I know it sounds crazy.
Leo Laporte (02:01:29):
<laugh>, what are you, what are you talking about?
Alex Lindsay (02:01:32):
Everyone's, everyone's going out. I'll go again. Well, so, so the, uh, you know, but I I we work on Michael Krasney show, so Michael Krasney has this podcast, Leo's been on it. Uh, we're gonna track. That's a good show here. Yeah. Um, and so, but, uh, but so the, it's a great show. It's a great interview and we bring people in from all over. And a lot of folks, you know, a lot of them are pretty high profile, but they, you know, oftentimes it's, it's amazing how under equipped they are, even though they've been showing up on CNN n and other things like that, <laugh>. And so we send them out mics and we do the best we can to make it sound better, but it still comes back and we have to do a little bit of work on it and, um, to make it sound as good as it could, uh, as you know, with, with what's happening.
So we send out some mb seven mics, but even then we, we still wanna do a little bit of work on it. And I just have to say that I don't know how I would do this every week without isotropic <laugh>. So a lot of people iso trope, uh, I use RX 10 and a little bit of ozone and it's just like, oh, I need a Ds or I need a, I need to pull this out. I need to fix this thing. I need to, you know, there's a little bit of clicking in here, there's a little bit of something else, and it's just this, um, RX especially is just something that I use on every show to fix something. Me too.
Jason Snell (02:02:39):
Alex, me too. It's reallys, uh, it's like magic. The, it's magic de reverb. If you get somebody in an echoy room, I just, and you're like, well this, this audio is unusable even it's a vague echo. And you press a button and walk away for like 20 minutes and it just, it's magic. It just goes away. It's shocking how good it
Alex Lindsay (02:02:55):
Is. Which bundles should I get? You
Jason Snell (02:02:59):
Should get the most expensive one. Oh, thank
Alex Lindsay (02:03:01):
You. Exactly. Okay. It's that or Play Date. Have a subscription. I have a subscription. I don't remember it being that high. I can't find it. Right. I was trying to figure out what I'm paying every day, every week, every month for, it's like 20 bucks a month or something like that. And I have RX 10 and, uh, ozone or the two that I have there. Um, so it's some kind of, you can buy it for, you know, I think the RX is not as expensive. I have, yeah. Again, I have this bundle and, um, it's worked again, it's worked really, really well, um, for me. And, and I just, you know, I, I tried to do it without it. I, I got a demo of it and I was like, oh, this is pretty good. And then I tried to do, do work without it and I was like, oh, this is taking so much time, <laugh> whatever, whatever, whatever it costs, make it go away. And so, so
Leo Laporte (02:03:40):
Have an editor in it or No, this is not the editor? No, no,
Alex Lindsay (02:03:43):
I have this, I use it in Logic. Okay. Yeah. So I have an, I have it in Logic, so I, you know, my, there's all an app. It's
Leo Laporte (02:03:48):
All plugins. You could
Jason Snell (02:03:49):
Just use it. Yeah. But there is an app that has all of them in it that you can use. And I actually pre-process my files in their app. Oh. So there is, there is an app, but you can also put it in. And when do you
Alex Lindsay (02:03:58):
Cut? What do you cut the show in?
Jason Snell (02:04:00):
I mostly using Logic or, you know, mostly using Logic, basically, uh, when I'm on the Mac. But I will pre-process my files, even if I'm using far right on the iPad, I'll pre-process the files on Um huh. In the Isotope app. I do it in advance because that way I can completely control what it looks like. And then play back is super smooth. I keep my originals, but I, I'll process the files and then drop them into the editor. Especially for like D Reverb, because that is an incredibly intensive, uh, calculation to do that magic.
Alex Lindsay (02:04:29):
Yeah. I think I, I'm on a studio and I, it does take like a second when I hit play. There's like a second of it. Cause I, I'll I'll put in, yeah, this last one, DS or de explosive D uh, D it said Ds or Delos. D D de Reverb.
Jason Snell (02:04:42):
Yeah, it slows
Alex Lindsay (02:04:43):
It down a little. And it, and it just, just, it was just like, it just takes, you hear this like weird little echo for the first couple seconds, uh, like 1, 2, 1 or two seconds and then it just plays out after that. And so, so the, um, but yeah, the, it's, they're super powerful. And again, I, I find that, uh, the amount of quality, the amount of work that I can do after that. I send it, I send it to a friend of mine, <laugh>, Mickey. Mickey does, after, after, after. If I can't fix it with Rx and, and Ozone, I send it, send it to the Philippines. <laugh> haven't worked on. Um, and so that's, that's the only, uh, it's funny cause
Leo Laporte (02:05:13):
I was thinking really the Philippines to be worked on myself. So,
Alex Lindsay (02:05:16):
Uh, yeah. It's, it's, uh, yeah, exactly. You know, I have, I have a, I have a ringer. I have, I have an audio ringer in, in, uh, in Manila. Yeah. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (02:05:24):
Guys, this stuff's been around for so long. I think I used it in the early days at TWiT.
Alex Lindsay (02:05:28):
It's, I've used it on and off and, but now that I'm doing it every week and I'm, you know, doing, you know, I do this one kind of myself, and it's been good. I, I have to admit I was getting a little rusty and logic, and now I'm like, I got all the keystrokes back and I'm kind of, you know, cutting through stuff and, and it's, um, but my final pass before I start doing the compression on the whole thing is to take all these ozone ones. And I, I usually pull 'em back a little bit there, a little aggressive, but I, uh, um, you know, go through there and, and kind of process everything. And it just makes a big difference, especially for the far end, um, of the, of the, uh, podcast.
Leo Laporte (02:05:59):
Well, God willing, I'll never have to do it myself again. But, uh, if I do, I'm keeping this, I'm bookmarking this and I'll keep it around iZotope I Z O t O p And I did, I did. Just to price it out. If you buy everything, it's 1300 bucks. 1249. I don't have
Alex Lindsay (02:06:16):
Leo Laporte (02:06:17):
50. Yeah, you don't need everything. Don't have, but I'm just checking, you know, just to see. And, uh, I am told that they have regular deals, so they do, yeah. Keep an eye peeled for an
Alex Lindsay (02:06:27):
Iso. They have regular deals and they have a subscription. And, and I think that the only thing that I've used outside of Isotope that really works is called it synaptic and it's called Unveil. And so if Isotope can't fix it, like if it's really broken, I've had some pretty echoy rooms and unveil we'll do some crazy work, but it's like $800 and does one thing. Yeah.
Jason Snell (02:06:44):
Yeah. Adobe's working on something. They've got a, like a web thing, um, that they're doing now. Yeah. Their little
Alex Lindsay (02:06:49):
Podcast thing. The
Jason Snell (02:06:50):
Podcast, yeah. That's got a machine learning thing where you can upload mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it's depending on the track. That's like magic. So we may, we may be at the threshold of like a whole new era. I mean, and Isotope has a lot of machine learning based stuff in those plugins too. So Yeah. The, the ability to take something that sounds terrible and press a button and have it come out sounding good is rapidly approaching. It's great news for all of us who have friends who are recording podcasts and they forgot which microphone they were selecting or, or,
Alex Lindsay (02:07:15):
Or which end to, to talk into, you know, like the blue is the killer. It's like, there's like six settings and like one way to do it. And if you do it any other way, you end up like doing lot of,
Jason Snell (02:07:25):
I just got, I, I, I have friends who say I've got a perfect room to record a podcast in. It's all glass walls. Oh yeah. And perfect.
Leo Laporte (02:07:31):
Don't, don't do it. So good. Yeah. It's Uhhuh. Perfect. Beautiful. Great. I can hear you. Yeah. Many times. <laugh>. Yeah. I just, uh, uh, bought the, uh, effort to test Rhodes new NT one, the fifth Generation just came out with 30, they say 32 bit, uh, recording. So we're gonna show that and test that on, uh, Sunday with Ask Asthe Tech guys, if you're looking for a good microphone. Well, actually what we're really gonna talk about is what 32 bit float recording is and why it's a good thing.
Alex Lindsay (02:08:04):
So good.
Leo Laporte (02:08:04):
Yeah. Yeah. Should I upgrade? I have a us I have a mix, uh, u SB pre three, but it's not second Generation. And should I go, should I spend 800, 900 bucks to get the second generation with 32 bit float recording?
Alex Lindsay (02:08:20):
No. Yes. The, the, the real thing. So here's the thing, <laugh>,
Leo Laporte (02:08:24):
This is the sound devices
Alex Lindsay (02:08:25):
At home. I don't, I mean, I mean, at, at, at the office. I don't know if you need it. No, I will say that the killer thing about the Mix 3 32 is the Noise Assist. So you, it's another plugin. It's a $300 plugin that you add to noi to your mix pre. Yeah. And I mean, right now you're hearing me through it. Oh, like you, I have fans and things and Oh, it just
Leo Laporte (02:08:44):
Cleans it all up.
Alex Lindsay (02:08:45):
Huh? Just makes it all go away, you know, like, so on our bigger, on our, on our kind of mid-range and higher end kits for oh nine, oh, we send, we send out a mix pre with that noise says turned on, and it just solves a whole bunch of problems. A little bit of the echo, a little bit of the reverb and all of the fan noise that's out there. Oh. Um, that's there. So, so the mix, that's the big thing. I mean the, the,
Leo Laporte (02:09:06):
So that's the firmware that you put on the mix, Bri, because it's a hardware,
Alex Lindsay (02:09:09):
It's a, it's a plugin that you buy for it, and it's, and it, it needed more, it needs more processing power. So the mix pre three by the first one didn't have the processing power to do it. Ah. Um, so basically what Noise Assist does is a lot of what Cedar does. And I will, I actually think that Noise Assist sounds better than Cedar most of the time. Um, noise Assist has a, and Cedar is the big one. Like that's the one we used to use for everything to clean things up. Um, but the, uh, but the Noise Assist I think is a softer touch. And it, and, and I, with Cedar, if you turn it up too much, I hear it. I can hear the, the, the bits <laugh>, you know, as it as it cuts into it. Um, but the, but with, uh, noise Assist, I can turn it up pretty high. I don't know how easy it is for me to That's okay. See if I can turn this off for you. Don't do, we
Leo Laporte (02:09:52):
Should say this. That could be a pick for another day. I don't, you already did your pick. I don't wanna add a whole nother pick to it,
Alex Lindsay (02:09:57):
But <laugh>, can you hear that?
Leo Laporte (02:09:59):
Alex Lindsay (02:10:00):
I just, oh, go
Leo Laporte (02:10:03):
On. That's what we need here, <laugh>,
Alex Lindsay (02:10:05):
Actually. So it just, it works.
Leo Laporte (02:10:07):
Well, if I ever get into podcasting, I will call you and we'll figure it. There
Alex Lindsay (02:10:11):
You go. Yeah.
Leo Laporte (02:10:11):
I'll have to figure it all out. Uh, Mr. Alex Lindsay does this great thing on office hours and this, you just got a little sample right there. Little office hours sample <laugh>. That's, that's like,
Alex Lindsay (02:10:21):
That's, that's what, that's what every day looks like, is those fiddling with something and, and talking,
Leo Laporte (02:10:25):
What Does that sound through it?
Alex Lindsay (02:10:26):
Yeah. Yeah. We,
Leo Laporte (02:10:27):
Uh, I've, today's show is the lower third show where you dissect,
Alex Lindsay (02:10:31):
Uh, yeah. We literally just look at other people's thirds and talk about, we talked a lot about construction. We talked about what we like about 'em, what we don't like about 'em, the technical pieces of it, the, you know, like we definitely like digging in. Just to
Jason Snell (02:10:42):
Be clear, the people's lower third items on a video track, not their actual like lower third. Oh,
Leo Laporte (02:10:47):
Not their body lower third. No, no, no. Like we call it the Chiron
Alex Lindsay (02:10:53):
Knees. Their knees. Yeah, the knees are, just look at those knees. Um,
Jason Snell (02:10:56):
Not the torso though. That's the
Leo Laporte (02:10:58):
Jason Snell (02:10:59):
The torso lower their knees down. Okay.
Alex Lindsay (02:11:01):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Pre
Andy Ihnatko (02:11:02):
Cap preprints are very, very big in the office hours committee. Yeah,
Leo Laporte (02:11:05):
Exactly. And I and Thursday's gonna be ruthless reviews. So you, I mean, I
Alex Lindsay (02:11:10):
Leo Laporte (02:11:11):
This is what people like the best about you guys is when you're spunky, but there's a lot of other information too. We,
Alex Lindsay (02:11:18):
It's, it's, the, the cool thing is, is that this week we're talking, tomorrow we're talking about five do we're talking about surround audio in general, um, and just what the different ones are and what, what all the numbers mean. 5 1 5 4 74, all this stuff. And then, and then we're getting ready. We're gonna have some other experts on, so I'm trying to, we're we're all talking about it first before the experts come on. So we're, you know, that's a couple weeks out. And then the, uh, on Thursday we're talking about not just the ruthless reviews, but how it looks in hdr. So we're slowly moving to streaming HD r to YouTube. And so how do people look with their lighting, not just in regular sdr, but how they look in hdr because it, it's unforgiving. And then on Friday, Friday you'll finally get to see what our sets look like. You'll see what, what the rest of my room looks like. Oh, on Friday. So we, we show, cuz a lot of us look relatively normal in front of it, but anytime you see it over the shoulder of all of us, it's like this giant, like all these monitors and everything else. And so usually people don't see that. So we're gonna, uh,
Leo Laporte (02:12:13):
Turn the camera around. I
Alex Lindsay (02:12:14):
Love it. Yeah, we're gonna turn it around and show people like what it looks like when you
Leo Laporte (02:12:16):
Doing Office is the website. They put 'em up on YouTube, but you could also join the Zoom calls if you want to be part of it. All the information is there Office, including schedules, schedules, Mr. Andy Ihnatko gbh this week?
Andy Ihnatko (02:12:35):
No, I just found out I just got bumped because there's a big local news story that just dropped today. So we're gonna be using my time to talk about that and other things. But go to wgbh, uh, to listen to what I'm sure is gonna be a great show tomorrow, uh, even without me. And you go to wg h and search my name and you'll find my previous tech segments. So thanks. What I think is next week of the week after that
Leo Laporte (02:12:54):
Big news story here actually just come in. Uh, apparently GarageBand has a security flaw in there. Apple's pushing an update out. So no. A rare update to GarageBand. You know, I would normally say, yeah, come on, what, how, how big a deal could this be? But we have now learned that the last Pass Hack involved getting in through an unpatched version of Plex Plex in a senior developer's laptop at home. So it does, it is important that you update these other things that you've got running. He hadn't updated Plex in years and uh, and as a result, last pass was act. Yeah. So it's important. Keep those updates. Can we
Andy Ihnatko (02:13:32):
Talk about the, i the, uh, I I trust hack that happened, uh, last
Leo Laporte (02:13:36):
Month. I don't know about that one. What's that?
Andy Ihnatko (02:13:38):
There was a, an e I'm sorry. But there, there there's an e-commerce service that a lot of e-commerce sites use to Oh,
Leo Laporte (02:13:43):
$36 million.
Andy Ihnatko (02:13:46):
Yeah. That, uh, that basically, so you don't know that your, that your transactions are going through this third party that does verification. It turns out that, that that company got themselves hacked to the tune of 30 million. Nice, uh, 30 million user data I got. Cause I got, I got a, uh, uh, I, I got a notification from have I been POed saying how
Leo Laporte (02:14:04):
Do you Oh yeah, I did too. I got that notification too, was something else. But it's nice, isn't it? Get those notifications.
Andy Ihnatko (02:14:10):
It's, it's, it's nice to know that, oh, something horrible has happened. This out of your control. Just change all your passwords everywhere. You'll be good.
Leo Laporte (02:14:16):
Yeah. Oh
Andy Ihnatko (02:14:17):
Dear. Uh, ignorance is, ignorance is very peaceful. Yes.
Leo Laporte (02:14:21):
<laugh>, uh, Mr. Jason's Snell, welcome home. A little like a culture shop. Thank you. Shock. Or how hard has it been to get back in?
Jason Snell (02:14:30):
I mean, I just haven't, my solution is just not to leave the house and then it's, uh, fine. Although I did drive familiar drive somewhere and I was on the other side of the road from, I was the same side of the car though, since I was a passenger before and I was driving this time. Yeah, no, it's great. It, it is always a shock as you know, Leo from all your travel to get back to the, to your life after you've been out of it for two weeks. So then good news is it was a real vacation for me. I didn't think about work at all. Um, and that was, that was nice. Now, now. So I, now I get that moment where like, I'm serious what I said at the top of the show, which is like a, anything happen, <laugh>. Cause it's like I just wasn't paying attention. But, uh, it, it was good, good refresher and great to see. We've been planning that trip since, uh, before the pandemic and then it got delayed and delayed and I'm so glad we finally got good a chance to see that country. It was beautiful. Honey. Need some meat pies. You know,
Leo Laporte (02:15:17):
That's funny cuz uh, we have, we're going on a pandemic, delayed trip, uh, in a couple of weeks. We had a plan to cruise in 2020, uh, from Singapore round trip to Singapore in the Philippines and Hong Kong and stuff. Of course all of Asia was shut down. We they canceled it. They canceled it again <laugh>. Finally we said, screw Asia, we're gonna go to Europe. So, so we're gonna Europe, uh, in a couple of weeks. Same thing. You know, we paid for this in 2019, right? I mean sometimes these things happen. Anyway, I'm glad you got, you go on your trip. Welcome home.
Jason Snell (02:15:50):
Thank you for filling, having those guys fill in for me. They did a great job. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Leo Laporte (02:15:55):
It's great. Find out what Jason's up to by going to six and I say that because no one's got enough time to talk about all the shows. Jason.
Jason Snell (02:16:05):
No, I, it's AI based now. I just have an AI speak with my voice and watch it watches the shows for me
Andy Ihnatko (02:16:11):
And I'm tired of covering your butt, Jason. Okay. Thank you Richard. I mean, we're friends but
Leo Laporte (02:16:15):
<laugh> any, regardless. Any, uh, are you, so you're back on all of 'em now? Yeah.
Jason Snell (02:16:20):
Yeah. The fill-ins were the last two weeks and now, uh, now I'm back. I'm back to the grind. Only two podcasts today. Only one yesterday. Oh my God. I'm easing in, I'm easing
Leo Laporte (02:16:29):
In. Oh my God. This and this is why I, I stayed out of the whole podcast thing cuz it's just nuts. It's just,
Jason Snell (02:16:35):
It's a good idea. Don't do it. Don't do it. You host too many shows that
Leo Laporte (02:16:37):
Way. Don't do it. Thank you Jason. Andy, thank you Alex. Thank you all for joining us. We do Mac Break weekly of, uh, Tuesday 11:00 AM Pacific, 2:00 PM Eastern 1900 utc. Uh, that's when we start the show. You can watch the live stream at Live twit tv. If you're watching Live chat with us, live at IRC twi tv. You can use your browser, but it is a true I Rrc server. So if you have a client, you can use that too. Uh, if you're a Discordian and you're in in the club, join the Club TWiT Discord. There's always a discord going on around every live event and every live show after the fact. On-demand versions of this show available at our website, twit tv slash mb w there's audio and video. You can also watch the video on YouTube. There's a dec dedicated Mac Break weekly channel, uh, and you can subscribe in your favorite podcast player and, and get it automatically the minute it's available. I'm sure we will have some lovely album. Art <laugh>. Thanks, thanks to Mid Journey and the, and the prompt master Alex Lindsay. Uh, and if not, well sorry, <laugh>, can we He's busy his name. That's all I need. He's doing some stuff. Well, I'll tell you the name in a second, but first, yeah, it's time for me to tell you to get back to work. Cause break time is over. Bye-bye.
Ant Pruitt (02:17:57):
Hey folks, I'm Ant Pruitt. I have a question for you. How do you think your hardworking team with a Club TWiT corporate subscription plan? Of course, show your appreciation and reward your tech team with the subscription to Club Keep everyone informed and entertained with podcasts covering the latest in tech with the Club Twitch subscription. They get access to all of our podcasts ad free. And they also get access to our members-only Discord, uh, access to exclusive outtakes and behind the scenes footage and special content like the fireside chats that I enjoy hosting. Plus they also get shows like Hands-on Mac, hands-on Windows, and the Untitled Linux Show. So go to twit and look for corporate plans for complete details.

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